Sitting of 5 November 1908

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Kirkcaldy and Dysart Water Order Confirmation Bill) [Lords].—Considered; to be read the third time upon Monday next.
PETITIONS.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions in favour: From Horley; and Bridge of Weir and other places; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  MONASTIC AND CONVENTUAL INSTITUTIONS.
  Petition from inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  POOR LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 4161 and 4163 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877 (OXFORD).
  Copy presented, of Statute made by the Governing Body of Christ Church, Oxford, on 25th June, 1908, amending Statute XVI., Clause 9, of the Statutes of the House; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 317.]
  HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPTS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Copy presented, of Report on Manuscripts in Various Collections, Volume VI.: the Manuscripts of Miss M. Eyre-Matcham, Captain A. V. Knox, Mrs. Wykeham-Martin, etc. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS, 1894 TO 1903.
  Copy presented, of an Order, No. 7586, dated 29th October, 1908, relating to Animals being carried on the steamship "Minnesota" [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Old-Age Pensions—Residence Abroad.
  MR. VIVIAN: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether residence of three months or more out of the United Kingdom prevents an applicant from benefiting under the Pensions Act; and does a three months or more residence in the Isle of Man exclude an applicant from benefiting under the Act.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) An applicant for an old-age pension must, under Section 2 of the Old-Age Pensions Act, 1908, satisfy the pension authorities that for at least twenty years up to the date of the receipt of any sum on account of a pension he has had his residence, as defined by regulations under the Act, in the United Kingdom. The regulations provide for temporary absences during the period of twenty years being disregarded if the applicant's home has throughout the absences been in the United Kingdom and the aggregate of the absences since the beginning of the earliest of them does not exceed eight years. Residence in the Isle of Man is not for the purposes of the Act residence within the United Kingdom†.

  Application for Loan from Surbiton District Council.
  MR. CAVE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to an application made by the Surbiton Urban District Council in July last for sanction for a loan for sewerage purposes; and whether, in view of the present lack of employment, he will accelerate the holding of an inquiry into the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Yes, Sir. Notices for an inquiry will be issued at once.

  Treatment of Imprisoned Suffragists.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the ladies
  † This Answer is substituted for that published on the preceding day.
  1364
  now undergoing terms of imprisonment for offences arising out of the Suffragist agitation are only allowed each one towel, which has to serve for daily use and the weekly bath for a whole week, and one handkerchief for a whole week; whether they are only allowed a small tin basin for washing and that in the early morning, and are not allowed to wash their hands again during the day and whether, regard being had to the fact that such restrictions are calculated to be injurious to the health of the prisoners, and are of a humiliating character, there will be any and, if so, what modifications in their enforcement.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) These prisoners are allowed one towel for cell use, and one for bathing. The normal allowance of handkerchiefs in the second division is one a week, but additional ones are issued on application, and have been issued in several instances to these prisoners. They are allowed to wash their hands as often as they like, and at 8 p.m. a bucket of hot water is supplied. These regulations cannot be regarded as either insanitary or humiliating.

  Promotions to Postmasterships from Belfast Post Office Staff.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will state how many officers of the postal and telegraph staffs, respectively, at Belfast have been promoted to vacant postmasterships during the last twenty years.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Twelve officers at Belfast have been appointed to postmasterships in the last twenty years. All these officers were employed on telegraph work.

  Irish Qualified Teachers in English Schools.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the President of the Board of Education if he will state why it is that teachers trained in a training college in Dublin since 1900, and whose Irish diploma, forwarded on to them when they have fulfilled the prescribed conditions of training, including that of satisfactory probation as a teacher in a public elementary school for two

  1365
  years, are only recognised by the Board of Education in England as uncertificated and untrained teachers, and receive the salary of such, thereby depriving them of future promotion when the salary of the untrained maximum is reached unless they consent to become certificated and trained in an English college.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The hon. Member's Question, so far as I understand it, does not accurately represent the facts. A teacher who has been trained in a training college, and is reported by the Irish Commissioners of National Education to have passed the revised examination and to have received a diploma, is qualified for recognition as a certificated teacher by the Board of Education, provided no adverse report has been received from the Irish Commissioners. The code makes no distinction in this matter between "trained" and "untrained" teachers.

  West Ham Distress Committee.
  MR. W. THORNE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that the balance of over £8,000 in the hands of the West Ham distress committee was set aside for emigration; and whether he will give sanction for the money in question to be used by the distress committee for the purpose of finding work for the unemployed.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The West Ham distress committee have considerable balances over from the grants made to them last year, mainly on account of the difficulties that arose in connection with emigration. I have already authorised the appropriation of £1,020 of these balances towards work in connection with the cleansing of the ornamental waters in Wanstead Park, and I will authorise further appropriations as soon as suitable schemes of work are before me.

  Municipal Servants Holding Double Appointments.
  MR. CLYNES: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has information of the number of instances in
  1366
  which officials of local authorities occupying one well-paid position also fill other paid posts, to the exclusion of suitable persons who are kept unemployed; and whether he can take any step, by the issue of a circular or by legislation, more equitably and efficiently to distribute these branches of public employment.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I cannot state in how many cases officers of local authorities hold more than one paid office. In many instances in which they do so the aggregate of the salaries is not large, and the offices are of a kind which may with advantage be held together; but I agree in thinking that a number of local offices should not be concentrated in the hands of one man where other arrangements can be made, and especially where the combined remuneration is considerable. I do not think that I can intervene in the way suggested in the Question, but I am prepared to act on the view I have stated in cases in which the sanction of the Local Government Board is necessary. Indeed, I have already done so.

  Assets and Liabilities of Local Authorities.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he can state approximately the total amount of the assets of the local authorities of the country as compared to the local debt at the present time, or at the latest date for which figures are available.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: To ask the President of the Local Government Board what is the total amount of the debt, and what is the total amount of assets of local authorities; and what the surplus of assets over debt amounts to in cases where actual valuation has taken place.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Perhaps I may be allowed to answer these Questions together. The aggregate amount of the outstanding loans for all purposes of the local authorities in England and Wales was £564,645,200 at the end of the year 1905–6, the latest year for which the particulars are available. The total value of the assets of the local authorities cannot be given for purposes of comparison with the debt.

  1367
  According to the Return relating to the indebtedness of the councils of boroughs, other than Metropolitan boroughs, in England and Wales, obtained in 1904, a value of 241 millions was sot on the corporate property and undertakings on the 31st March, 1903, when the total amount of the outstanding loans of those councils was, according to the same Return, about 195 millions. The value of the assets was, however, estimated in different ways in different boroughs.

  Importation of Foreign Meat.
  MR. HUNT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the fact that neither the regulations lately issued by the Local Government Board nor any other regulations prevent the importation and consumption of frozen, chilled, or tinned beef and mutton or of cured bacon or ham derived from tuberculous animals, and seeing that it is considered necessary that animals killed in this country suffering from this disease should not be allowed to be used as food, he will undertake to introduce legislation next session to protect the public from the danger of eating diseased imported foreign meat as well as from the danger of eating diseased meat of animals killed in this country.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I do not think that it will be requisite to introduce legislation on this subject. It could be dealt with by regulations under the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Act, 1907, should it be found needful to do so. I have already issued regulations under the Act as regards fresh pork coming from abroad, but I doubt whether there is the same need for regulations as respects cured bacon or ham. As regards beef and mutton, I understand that the requirements of foreign meat inspection are, as respects this class of moat, comparable with British standards, so that at present it does not seem necessary to issue regulations with regard to it. But if it should be found that tuberculous beef and mutton were being introduced into this country owing to laxity of inspection abroad I should be prepared to reconsider the matter.

  Unemployment—Work for Persons engaged during Summer Months.
  MR. MYER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if, in considering any scheme for the permanent dealing with unemployment, he will obtain a census of workpeople engaged from May to October in hay making, harvesting, fruit picking, vegetable gardening, hop picking, and brick making, within a radius of 50 miles of London, or say an area of 10,000 square miles; and will he ascertain if these workers migrate during the winter months into the poorer districts of London, thereby accentuating unemployment and distress.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I will consider the suggestion of my honourable friend, but there would be considerable difficulty in taking a census of the kind contemplated by him, and I doubt whether the information obtained would be of sufficient value to justify the expense which would be involved.

  Scottish Trawling Bill.
  MR. PIRIE: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether, in the event of the Second Reading of Trawling in Prohibited Areas Prevention Bill passing this House, it is the intention of the Government to refer the Committee stage to a Committee of the Whole House or to the Scottish Grand Committee.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) Any such intention will be made known before the debate on Second Reading comes to an end.

  Scottish Education Department.
  MR. PIRIE: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state the number of officials and staff employed in the Scottish Education Department respectively in London and in Edinburgh, the respective annual cost, and the salaries paid to the two branches; and if he would grant a simple Return, before the Report stage of the Education (Scotland) Bill is taken, giving details of the personnel of the Department, specifying positions, length of service, and salaries of the staff of the Department.

  1369
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The total number of officers on the permanent establishment of the Scottish Education Department, exclusive of the inspectorate and of the staff of the Royal Scottish Museum, is in London 50 and in Edinburgh 14. The salaries of these officers amount in the aggregate to £13,770 and £3,818 respectively. If, however, account is taken of all officers of the Department in Scotland and London respectively the numbers are:—Officers: London 50, Scotland 118. Salaries: London £13,770, Scotland £40,300. As regards the Return asked for by my honourable friend, the greater part of the information desired is already given in the Annual Estimates of the Department and in various publications, and I do not think that in these circumstances a Return is necessary.

  Stonehouse (Lanark) Parish Manse.
  MR. MENZIES: To ask the Secretary for Scotland, in view of the action of the heritors of Stone-house, in Lanarkshire, again relieving themselves of part of the expense of building a parish manse by imposing it upon the small feuars and leaseholders (under Section 11 of the Ecclesiastical Assessments (Scotland) Act, 1900), whether he will take any action in the matter by repealing that Act, or otherwise, in order to relieve these poor people of a tax for a church in which, for the most part, they have no interest.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) As my honourable friend is aware, the terms of a Resolution moved by the Member for East Edinburgh, which was debated in this House in February of last year, indicated the direction in which legislation is desirable, and was assented to by the Government. I am unable, however, at the present moment to give any undertaking as to legislation.

  New Scottish Fishery Cruiser.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he can yet state the probable date of the launching of the new Scotch fishery cruiser; and whether he is taking any steps to further supplement this fleet.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) It is not yet possible to name any date. The
  1370
  Fishery Board do not at present contemplate any further addition to the fleet.

  Leinster Winter Assizes.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whore the forthcoming Winter Assizes for the province of Leinster are to be held.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The forthcoming Leinster Wintor Assizes will be hold at Green Street Court-house, Dublin.

  Small Holdings Compensation.
  SIR F. CAWLEY: To ask the honourable Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether it is the practice of the Commissioners under the Small Holdings Act to give compensation to a tenant farmer who has had his land taken for the purpose of creating a small holding.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The case contemplated by the honourable baronet has not arisen.

  Army Pensions.
  MR. CARLILE: To ask the Secretary of State for War what are the details of the arrangement made with boards of guardians to draw the quarterly pensions due to Army pensioners who have resort to the Poor Law in order that they may be paid to the pensioners by weekly instalments; and whether pensioners must acquiesce in this method of receiving their allowances.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) When the guardians decide to pay a pensioner monthly or weekly they inform either the War Office or the accountant paying the pension. The quarterly payments are then made to the guardians, who arrange for the payment of the instalments to the pensioner. The War Office does not obtain the pensioner's acquiescence.

  Army Horses.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Secretary of State for War, whether a scheme has yet been evolved for the supply of horses for the Army in war and peace; and whether he is in a position to give any information in reference to the matter.

  1371
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) As I informed the House last Monday, the matter is engaging my close attention, but I am not yet able to make any statement on the subject.

  German Cavalry Arms.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHEER-GRAY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the new firearm about to be issued to Gorman cavalry; and whether he has any information as to its merits compared with the rifle issued to British troops.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The German cavalry have been experimenting with a new carbine during the past training season, but no information has so far been published officially regarding the weapon.

  The Pointed Bullet.
  MR. HUNT: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether experiments have been tried as to the serious wounds caused by the new pointed bullet adopted by some other countries; and whether it is found that these bullets not only have a greater smashing effect, but also that on strikin, the base of the bullet turns upwards and inflicts a very much more serious wound than the ordinary bullet now used in the government rifle.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Experiments with various bullets have from time to time been carried out to ascertain the nature of wounds caused at various velocities and ranges. I think it wiser not to publish at present any of the information obtained.

  Small Arms Committee.
  MR. GUY WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Small Arms Committee is allowed to discuss any question which as not been directly referred to it by the Master-General of the Ordnance through the Director of Artillery; and, if not, whether he will take steps to give the Small Arms Committee a free hand in carrying out its experiments with high-velocity bullets and ammunition.
  (Answered, by Mr. Secretary-Haldane.) The reply is in the negative. It is not practicable to give any Committee a free
  1372
  hand to carry out experiments which involve expenditure without definite authority and guidance.

  High Velocity Ammunition.
  MR. GUY WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Small Arms Committee has only been allowed to try and find high-velocity ammunition suitable for the present breech action and weak Lee bolt; and that the question as to whether the breech action of the Government rifle is sufficiently strong and suitable in all respects has never been referred to them.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary-Haldane.) The Small Arms Committee has only considered the high-velocity ammunition for the present service rifle. There is no intention of altering that rifle, which is sufficiently strong and suitable for the purposes for which it is required.

  Constitution of the Small Arms Committee.
  MR. GUY WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War in view of the fact that the Master-General of Ordnance, the Director of Artillery, the Secretary to the Small Arms Committee, and the entire War Office staff responsible for providing our cavalry and infantry with a suitable rifle, are Royal Artillery officers, whether he will appoint an independent Committee to inquire into the whole question of the supply of small arms and ammunition for the British Army.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary-Haldane.) The reply is in the negative. My hon. friend's suggestion is quite impracticable. As regards the suggestion contained in the Question that these matters rest entirely in the hands of Artillery officers, I need only refer my hon. friend to the composition of the Small Arms Committee, and further to that of the Army Council, who are the final authority responsible.

  County Mayo Evicted Tenants.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: To ask the Chief-Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many applications for reinstatement have been received from evicted tenants in the County

  1373
  of Mayo; and if he will state why it is that, according to the latest Returns of the Estates Commissioners, no evicted tenant has been reinstated in the County of Mayo during the quarter ended 30th June last.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) Up to 30th September last 573 applications were received by the Estates Commissioners from persons seeking reinstatement as tenants, or the representatives of tenants, evicted from holdings in County Mayo. 125 of these applications were received after the date specified in the Evicted Tenants Act, 337 were refused after inquiry, eleven applicants have been reinstated or provided with other holdings, and the cases of the remaining 100 have been noted for consideration in the allotment of such untenanted land as the Commissioners may acquire. The Return to which the hon. Member refers is limited to tenants reinstated as purchasers on estates sold or proposed to be sold through the Commissioners, and the Commissioners are not aware that any tenants were so reinstated in County Mayo during the quarter ended 30th June last.

  Neligan Estate, Blarney.
  MR. SHEEHAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on the Neligan Estate, at Blarney, County Cork, have been, for the past three years paying the Estates Commissioners interest on their purchase money at the rate of 4 per cent. per annum, and that payment at this rate of interest is almost equivalent to their former rent; and, in the circumstances and considering the hardships inflicted on them whilst compelled to remain in their present position, will steps be taken to have this estate inspected forthwith and the vesting orders made in the case of these tenants.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The purchase agreements on this estate were lodged in May, 1906. By these agreements the tenants undertook to pay interest in lieu of rent at 4 per cent. on the agreed price until the holdings are vested in them, and the Estates Commissioners are bound by statute to
  1374
  collect the interest and pay it over to the owner. The property will be inspected in its proper order of priority.

  Service Pensioners in Irish Lunatic Asylums.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether stoppages made from the pensions of naval and military inmates of Irish district lunatic asylums, on account of the rate in aid, 4s. per head per week, allowed for patients confined therein, are refunded to the Treasury or to the Irish Local Taxation Account, from which latter account the rate in aid is now provided.
  (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) The deductions are retained by the Paymaster-General, and consequently accrue to the benefit of the Exchequer.

  H.M.S. "Lord Nelson."
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the contract for the battleship "Lord Nelson" was placed in October, 1904; and, seeing that three years have now elapsed, whether he can state approximately when all dockyard or other workmen will be out of the ship and the ship take its place in the Nore Division of the Home Fleet.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is 19th November, 1904, and to the second part 13th December next.

  Contracts for New Destroyers.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty on what dates were the contracts placed for the destroyers "Ghurka" and "Afridi" of the 1905 programme; and if he can state, approximately, when all dockyard or other workmen will be out of those ships so that they can be exercised on service.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) On 30th August and 21st September, 1905, respectively. The answer to the second part of the hon. Member's Question is, "Ghurka" early in December, "Afridi" not until March next.

  Contracts for Armoured Ships.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the dates on which the contracts were placed for the large armoured ships "Invincible" and "Inflexible"; and what is the approximate date when all dockyard or other workmen will be out of these ships and the latter joined up to the Nore Division of the Home Fleet.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The Answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is, 21st November, 1905; and to the second part, "Invincible," February, 1909, "Inflexible," 12th December, 1908.

  Delayed Shipbuilding.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that ships are still building in this country which belong to the 1904 and 1905 programmes; and, in view of recent controversies concerning the rate of building in our own and foreign countries, whether he can point to a single battleship, cruiser, or destroyer, or any other type of vessel belonging to the German 1904 or 1905 programmes, which is not completed.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The dates for the laying down of warships built in this country can be found in the programme portion of the published Navy Estimates. Similar information with regard to the German Navy is published in "Nauticus" (Yahrbuch fur Deutschlands Secinteressen), a book which is issued annually and is on sale.

  Prosecution of Cromarty Fishermen.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord-Advocate if he will explain why certain fishermen residing at Cromarty were recently summoned to appear first at Dingwall and subsequently at Tain in connection with offences alleged to have been committed at Cromarty within a quarter of a mile of the courthouse provided for the trying of local cases, especially bearing in mind that the Dingwall Sheriff attended at Cromarty and conducted business there only two days after the men were before the Court at Dingwall; and, seeing that the trial at Dingwall or Tain of offences committed at Cromarty imposes heavy
  1376
  expenses on defendants as well as on witnesses, will instructions be given for such cases to be taken at the courthouse at Cromarty in future.
  (Answered by Mr. Thomas Shaw.) I have communicated on this subject with the Procurator-Fiscal and I await his Report, which has not yet been received. I am also in communication with the Sheriff of the county. Perhaps my hon. friend will put down the Question in a week's time.

  Workmen's Compensation Act and Trade Unions.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: TO ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is prepared to take steps to amend the statutory rules and orders for the administration of the Workmen's Compensation Act, in order to enable the duly authorised secretary of a registered trade union to act on behalf of a bana fide member of his union, or a dependant thereof, in any application made for or against his benefit under the Workmen's Compensation Act before a County Court Judge, or an official arbitrator, or an arbitration committee administering the said Act.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) As regards representation of the injured workman, it is already provided, by Rule 33 of the Workmen's Compensation Rules, 1907, that a party to an arbitration may be represented, with leave of the judge or arbitrator, by any officer or member of any society or other body or persons of which such party is a member or with which he is connected. As regards cases where the dependants of a deceased workman are a party to the arbitration, I am informed by the chairman of the Rules Committee of County Court Judges that he has never heard of any objection having been raised by any judge or arbitrator to the representation of the dependants by an official of a society with which the deceased workman was connected. An amendment of the rule, however, which will expressly authorise such representation of the dependants, will be brought before the Rules Committee. The rules of Court under the Act are made by the Rules Committee of County Court Judges with

  1377
  the approval of the Lord Chancellor, and are not within my jurisdiction. But if the hon. Member will communicate to me any cases that have come to his knowledge in which difficulties have been experienced, I shall be glad to consider them and make any representations necessary to the Lord Chancellor.

  Ingrave Shooting Case.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the shooting of a child named Emily Cullum, aged eleven years, at Ingrave, by a boy named Ernest Biggs, aged twelve and a half years, by firing off a rifle used for the scaring of birds; and, if so, can he state whether he is prepared to take steps to prevent the giving of loaded firearms by employers to boys of such tender years.
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the remarks of Mr. Justice Grantham in sentencing a boy of twelve and a half years to three mouths' imprisonment at Ingrave, namely, that it was fortunate for the employer there were no means of putting him into the dock, for the life of the child was sacrificed by his extraordinary conduct in giving the boy the rifle; and, if so, and in view of all the circumstances, can he state whether he is prepared to recommend the immediate discharge of the lad.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I will consider this case as soon as I am in possession of all the facts and have had time to consult the Judge, but I am not at present in a position to express any opinion about it.

  Licensing Compensation.
  MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the total amount awarded as compensation for the suppression of superfluous licences since the coming into force of the Licensing Act, 1904, down to the present time; and how much of this was paid to the actual licensees, distinguishing as to the latter amount between sums paid to
  1378
  licensees who were merely tenants and those who were both tenants and owners.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I have no later or further information than that given in the Annual Volume of Licensing Statistics (See, for instance, page 5 of the Volume for 1907), which show that a total sum of £2,301,583 4s. 10d. was paid in compensation for licences extinguished in the years 1905, 1906, and 1907, and that, of the money which was paid in the years 190(5 and 1907, a total sum of £241,004 9s. 3d. went to licence-holders and £1,947,343 19s. 8d. to other parties interested. I am unable to give figures distinguishing between licence-holders who were merely tenants and those who were both tenants and owners.

  Soldiers in the Dock.
  MR. CLAVELL SALTER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that at the recent Quarter Sessions for Hampshire, soldiers who were on their trial for criminal offences were compelled to appear in the dock in prison dress; whether this practice is general and has been ordered or sanctioned by the Home Department; and whether, in view of the degradation and indignity involved, he will direct that in future soldiers placed upon their trial may be given the option of wearing civilian dress.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) It is undesirable that soldiers should be placed in the dock wearing His Majesty's uniform. If they have other clothes fit to wear they are allowed to wear them, but if not they are supplied with clothes of the special kind supplied to other prisoners awaiting trial, when they do not wear their own, and quite different from those worn by convicted prisoners. This seems to me the best arrangement possible.

  Spitalfields Market.
  MR. B. S. STRAUS: To ask Mr. Attorney-General whether he contemplates that the pending action upon the question of the acquisition of the lessees' interest

  1379
  in Spitalfields Market will be disposed of in time to enable the Stepney Borough Council to exercise its option of purchase, or take a lease of the market within the period of six months after the expiration of ten years from the passing of the City of London (Spitalfield's Market) Act, 1902, and as contemplated by Section 20 of such Act.
  (Answered by Sir William Robson.) I have every hope that the pending litigation will be determined in ample time to admit of the exercise by the borough council of Stepney of its option to acquire the interests of the corporation of London in Spitalfields Market should the borough council be desirous of acquiring them.

  Land Club Union.
  MR. BRODIE: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, having regard to the work that is being done by the Land Club Union in certain districts of Surrey and Kent in making inquiries as to the demand for land and in organising co-operation among the applicants, he will ask for the consent of the Treasury to make a grant to the union under Section 49 of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, in order to enable it to extend its work.

  Month.

  Number of Outbreaks.

  Swine Slaughtered.

  Compensation.

  £

  January

  -

  -

  132

  536

  1,056

  February

  -

  -

  119

  515

  735

  March

  -

  -

  147

  855

  982

  April

  -

  -

  -

  157

  1,015

  844

  May

  -

  -

  -

  344

  1,258

  1,224

  June

  -

  -

  -

  293

  1,889

  1,857

  July

  -

  -

  -

  153

  1,151

  2,614

  August

  -

  -

  126

  1,281

  1,833

  September

  -

  -

  122

  900

  1,718

  October

  -

  -

  169

  1,483

  1,686

  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The power of making grants to societies of a local character is given to the county councils by subsection 2 of the section referred to, and the Board are therefore not prepared at present to adopt the suggestion of my hon. friend.

  Swine Fever.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what has been the number of outbreaks of swine fever in each month of the current year, also the number of swine infected, the number slaughtered, and the amount of compensation paid; whether the experience of the Board suggests that swine fever can be stamped out by the methods of disease prevention employed with success in the case of other contagious diseases of animals; and whether he will cause further investigation to be made into the nature of the disease and the most effective means for checking its prevalence.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) No record is kept of the number of swine infected with swine fever, but the number of outbreaks of swine fever, the number of swine slaughtered, and the compensation paid during the current year in Great Britain are as follows—
  The experience of the Board does not suggest that swine fever cannot be eradicated by the methods which are now being adopted for its suppression. The veterinary officers of the Board are continuously engaged in carrying out investigations of the character indicated, and as a result of those investigations new Orders on the subject of swine fever were issued and came into operation on 1st June last.

  Westerham Land Club.
  MR. BRODIE: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he has received a Memorandum from Mr. A. Bird, Secretary of the Westerham Land Club, with respect to applications made to the Kent County Council by members of that club for small holdings under the Small Holdings and Allotments Act; whether he is aware that these applicants were offered land on the chalk hill above Westerham, without water or cottages and quite unsuitable for small holdings, at a rent of 35s. per acre, although there was other land both suitable and available in the parish, and that after the applicants had declined the offer of unsuitable land they were given to understand that their applications would be indefinitely postponed; and whether the Commissioners will make full inquiries into the matter.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Memorandum to which my hon. friend refers has been received, and full inquiry is being made into the matter.

  Wilby Town Estates Charity.
  MR. H. PEARSON: To ask the hon. Member for the Barnstaple division, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he is aware that the Wilby Parish Council, within the three months allowed by law, appealed against the order dealing with, the Wilby Town Estates Charity, dated 2nd April, 1908; and, if so, on what ground their appeal was refused.
  (Answered by Mr. Soares.) The appeal against a decision of the Charity Commissioners under the Local Government Act, 1894, provided for in Section 70 (2)
  1382
  of that Act, is to the High Court of Justice, and in the present case no such appea has been made. The Charity Commissioners in July last expressed their willingness to discharge the order if the parish council would furnish them with a resolution expressing their desire to have the order discharged. No such resolution has been communicated to the Commissioners.
  MR. H. PEARSON: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the four-sevenths of the Wilby Town Estates Charity, having been allocated to the education rate by a determination order of the Charity Commissioners in the year 1903, is now lying at the bank unclaimed by the county council, and has been so lying since the year 1904; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take so that this money shall not continue to lie dormant.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Charity Commissioners by an order dated 20th January, 1903, under the Board of Education Act, 1899, determined that four-sevenths of the clear income of the Wilby Town Estates Charity, after payment of outgoings and expenses of management, is the part of the endowment of the charity which is held for or ought to be applied to educational purposes. The Board have intimated their willingness, with the consent of all parties, to establish a scheme which would provide for the application of the income so as to secure to poor children of the parish some special educational benefit. No application for a scheme has yet been made to the Board, but the Board would now be prepared to proceed with the preparation of a scheme so soon as application is made to them.

  Accommodation in Elementary Schools.
  MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the President of the Board of Education if he will state the earliest date at which he will be able to furnish statistics with regard to the accommodation in and attendance at public elementary schools during the school year ending 31st July, 1908.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I think these figures will be available about the middle of December.

  National Income and Expenditure.
  MR. HAROLD COX: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer when he hopes to be able to publish the Return of Gross Income and Expenditure, ordered by this House in July last.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Return is in the printers' hands and should be ready very shortly.

  Inland Revenue Officials.
  MR. SEARS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer how many officials have applied to the Board of Inland Revenue for permission to retire on superannuation, in order to take service under the county councils in connection with the transfer of the establishment, etc., licences; whether these applications have been granted; and, if not, why, in view of the anticipated reduction of the establishment owing to the amalgamation with the Customs, advantage has not been taken of offers which will bring about retirements without inflicting hardship on the officials.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) As regards officers under sixty years of age, only two applications to retire in the circumstances mentioned have been received. In neither case, seeing that under the Old-Age Pensions Act excise officers will be fully employed for some time to come, were the Board in a position to submit the application to the Treasury, for the grant of a superannuation allowance on the ground which would alone be admissible in each case, namely, abolition of office.

  lbs.

  ozs.

  Germany

  .

  .

  Mauser, 1888

  .

  .

  2

  12

  France

  .

  .

  .

  Lebel, 1886

  .

  .

  .

  2

  8

  U. S. A.

  .

  .

  .

  Krag Jorgensen, 1898

  .

  2

  13

  U. S. A.

  .

  .

  .

  Springfield, 1903

  .

  .

  2

  14

  Long Lee-Enfield

  .

  .

  2

  14

  Short Lee-Enfield

  .

  .

  2

  3

  Employment of Artisans and Labourers at Cork Barracks.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether a large number of carpenters, masons, plumbers, and other artisans and

  Balloon Company, Royal Engineers.
  SIR CHARLES MCLAREN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to provide any equipment for the Balloon Company, Royal Engineers (Territorials), which has been raised under the Territorial Army scheme; and, if not, how the training of the company is to be carried out so as to fit them for their duties in the field, having regard to the difficulty of training a balloon company without apparatus of any kind.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The Balloon Company will not receive technical stores. The training will be carried out on similar lines to that of other Territorial Force Engineer units. The ordinary drills and lectures will be carried out in London, lectures being substituted for drills at the discretion of the Territorial Division Commander. For mounted drills it is proposed that the wagons should be borrowed from the Telegraph Companies with which the Balloon Company is quartered. The annual and technical training in camp will be carried out at Aldershot or at some camp where the Regular Balloon Company is present to which the Territorial unit will be attached.

  Service Rifles.
  MR. COURTHOPE: To ask the Secretary of State for War what is the weight of the barrels without moveable appliances such as backsights, of the latest patterns of foreign and colonial service rifles other than Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The information available is as follows:—
  labourers who have been for years employed at the Cork barracks have received notice of immediate discharge; whether their places are to be taken by soldiers working at a much inferior rate of wages to the civilian mechanics; and,

  1385
  if so, whether, having regard to the Fair Wages Resolution of this House and to the distress prevalent in Cork at the present moment owing to unemployment, to provide for which the local authorities have been obliged to enter upon a large expenditure on public works, he will be good enough to direct that no change in the system of employment hitherto in force at the Cork barracks shall be made at least so long as the present emergency continues.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The matter has been referred to the district for inquiry.

  Horfield Barracks—Subletting of Contracts.
  MR. HOWELL DAVIES: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in the contract work now proceeding at the Horfield Barracks, Bristol, the contractor has power to sub-contract stone-pointing; and, if so, whether he will consider the desirability of preventing such sub-letting in all future Government work.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Inquiry will be made into the matter.

  Provision of Uniforms for the Territorial Army.
  SIR SEYMOUR KING: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the members of the Territorial Force are entitled to two suits of clothing, one of khaki, and one a full-dress for walking-out purposes; whether, although the force has been in existence for over seven months, only the suit of khaki has so far been issued; whether, as a consequence, many thousands of men went into camp with only one suit of uniform, and no change of clothing whatever; and whether, seeing that this is deleterious to health and likely to prove detrimental to security, he will say when the second suit is likely to be issued.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The provision of clothing rests entirely with the County Associations, and no delay took place in placing at their disposal the funds necessary to provide the two suits authorised.

  Director of Natural History Museum.
  MR. SEARS: To ask the Prime Minister whether he is able to make any statement as to the filling of the vacant position of Director of the Natural History Museum, South Kensington, which has been vacant for the past six months; and will he state how the matter now Stands.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) I am informed that the appointment to this post will be made shortly.

  Scottish Legislation—The Trawling Bill.
  MR. R. HARCOURT: To ask the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to give an assurance that the discussion of the Irish land question, foreshadowed in his statement on Wednesday, will not involve any postponement of Scottish legislation; and, in particular, if he can now state whether the Trawling in Prohibited Areas Bill will be pressed through all its stages in this House during the present session.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) I have no reason to think that the discussion referred to will involve a postponement of Scottish legislation. Until after the Second Reading, I shall not be in a position to state what are the prospects of the Trawling Bill during the present session.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Dockyard Employees.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state how many men were employed in the home dockyards on 30th November, 1905; how many men in similar employment are provided for in this year's Estimates; and how many additional men the Admiralty hope to employ in similar work as a result of the policy of the Government for the mitigation of the present distress.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. MCKENNA,): The number of men employed in the home dockyards on 30th November,

  1387
  1905, was 27,864. The average number pro-Aided for in the current Navy Estimates is 30,500—the total number borne on 17th October being 31,400. It is hoped that as a result of the Government policy for alleviating distress, employment until 31st March, 1909, will be found for an additional 2,100 men.
  MR. CURRAN: Arc there in any Government Departments, especially in the dockyards, any men engaged in working overtime?
  MR. MCKENNA: There are individual cases of overtime, but none is allowed unless under special circumstances and when absolutely necessary and under my personal sanction.

  Silvertown Gutta Percha Works.
  MR. W. THORNE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that at Messrs. Silver's gutta percha works at Silvertown, who do a great deal of work for the various Government Departments, they are discharging the majority of trade unionists who belong to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers; and whether, in view of the Fair Wages Clause, he will have the matter investigated.
  MR. MCKENNA: The trade union referred to have made certain representations with regard to the Silvertown works, and have been requested to present the case to the Secretary of the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress in accordance with the recognised procedure. Any alleged broach of the Fair Wages Clause of Admiralty contracts will be investigated at once on the matter being brought before the Board in due form.
  MR. HUNT: In view of the increasing number of unemployed, can the Government say what steps the men can take in order to get sufficient employment?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.

  The Channel and Home Fleets.
  MR. GIBBS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the recent cruise of the Home Fleet constituted the first occasion on which the
  1388
  three divisions were so assembled together for training purposes.
  MR. MCKENNA: The reply to the hon. Member's Question is in the negative. The vessels of the Home Fleet were assembled for training purposes last year in August; they were also together during the July marnœuvres of this year.
  MR. DU CROS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the number of ships actually present with the Channel Fleet on 2nd November last exceeded seven battleships, four armoured cruisers, two small cruisers, and ten destroyers; and, if so, to what extent.
  MR. MCKENNA: The vessels of the Channel Fleet present with the Commander-in-Chief on the 2nd November, were: seven battleships, three armoured cruisers, four other cruisers, one scout, nine destroyers.
  MR. DU CROS: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it "overwhelmingly safe" that the Channel Fleet should be constantly depleted of one-half of its strength?
  MR. MCKENNA: The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. Those battleships of the Channel Fleet not with the Commander-in-Chief at the time were left elsewhere by him in the proper exercise of his discretion. He left some at Portland and some elsewhere. I see no reason to interfere with his discretion.
  EARL WINTERTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many ships were actually at sea and how many were in dock?
  MR. MCKENNA: Four ships were refitting at that moment—one just completing. There other ships were elsewhere.
  EARL WINTERTON: Am I right in supposing that none of the four ships, except the one just completing, would be ready for sea at forty-eight hours notice?
  MR. MCKENNA: No. Does the noble Lord consider that a battleship should never be refitted?
  MR. HUNT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty for how many days during the eight weeks ending on 26th October last the flag-ship of the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Fleet, the "Dreadnought," was at sea.
  MR. MCKENNA: The answer to the hon. Member's Question is, twenty-one days.
  MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, during the recent cruise of the Home Fleet, the three divisions then assembled comprised only nine battleships and eight cruisers out of twenty four battleships and twenty-two cruisers; will he state the whereabouts of the remaining ships, and why they were not available; and whether, seeing that less importance is now attached by the Admiralty to the retention of the Channel Fleet in its full strength, it was the intention to dispense with combined Fleet training.
  MR. MCKENNA: During the period in question, there were in the Home Fleet, twenty-three battleships, eleven of them being special service vessels, and thirty-two cruisers, fifteen of them being special service vessels. The special service battleships and cruisers were not ordered to take part in the cruise, and were at their ports, except a few engaged in conveying relief crews to foreign stations. Of the remaining twelve battleships, ten were in company and two exercising independently. Of the seventeen cruisers, thirteen took part in the cruise, one was refitting, one was conveying reliefs to foreign stations, one was exercising independently, and one was at her home port after return from abroad. It is not intended to dispense with combined Fleet training as occasion requires it.

  Non-grog Allowance in the Navy.
  MR. GULLAND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has now received the report of the inquiry promised by the late Secretary to the Admiralty as to the existing number of temperance men in one of the home ports and in two of the large sea-going Fleets, and as to the number of men who would be willing to go on the temperance list if the non-grog
  1390
  allowance was increased to 1d.; whether the promised recommendation has been approved by the Admiralty; and whether provision will be made in next year's Estimates for the increased allowance in lieu of grog.
  MR. MCKENNA: Reports on this question were called for from the home ports, the Channel, Home, and Mediterranean Fleets, and the East Indies Squadron; 230 reports in all have been received and are now under consideration, but a final decision has not yet been arrived at.

  Dartmouth Cadets' Examinations.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the papers set to cadets passing out of Dartmouth in recent examinations have or have not been previously submitted in draft to the headmaster at Dartmouth.
  MR MCKENNA: Yes, Sir.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will put an end to the practice of the masters at the Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, obtaining foreknowledge of questions the cadets are going to be asked; and will he undertake to withdraw the instruction to the examiners for the cadets, issued by the Director of Naval Education, which requires them to submit to the headmaster of the college the questions that they are going to ask.
  MR. MCKENNA: No, Sir.
  MR. BELLAIRS: Am I to understand that the headmaster of the college who is responsible for the system of education is to have prior knowledge of all the questions to be asked by the examiners?
  MR. MCKENNA: In accordance with the practice which prevails at all the modern Universities, English, Scottish, and Welsh, and the schemes which are being adopted at the old Universities, it is proposed that the headmaster should combine with the examiners.
  MR. BELLAIRS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the questions leak out, and that it is a matter of open scandal?
  MR. MCKENNA: No, Sir. I know it to be absolutely unfounded.
  MR. BOWLES: Is the House to understand that a full knowledge of the questions is confined to the headmaster, or is it shared by other masters?
  MR. MCKENNA: That would be in the discretion of the headmaster.
  MR. ASHLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what purpose is served by giving the headmaster a knowledge of these questions?
  MR. MCKENNA: In a case of this kind, where there is no competition between outside boys and the boys at Dartmouth, great advantage is obtained by the examiners being placed in communication with the headmaster. A system of examination by the headmaster alone is in practice in many of these schools; but an external examiner has been called in on the present occasion. I accept full responsibility.

  Naval Classification.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the "Inflexible" and "Indomitable" are classed as battleships on page 270 of the Navy List and as armeured cruisers on pages 270d, 331, and 332; and whether it is the intention of the Board to increase the paper strength of the Navy by counting these vessels in both classes.
  MR. MCKENNA: I am much obliged to my hon. friend for calling attention to a clerical error in this month's Navy List; it will be corrected next month. My hon. friend's suggestion that the transference from one class to another can or would increase the paper strength, is quite without foundation.
  MR. BELLAIRS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the practice of the Admiralty officials on the front bench when talking of battleships to count in these vessels and when talking of cruisers also to count them in?
  MR. MCKENNA: That alleged practice is a pure fiction of the hon. Gentleman.

  Meetings of Indian Loyalists.
  CAPTAIN ARTHUR MURRAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether numerous meetings have been held throughout India consisting of maharajahs, rajahs, zemindars, and Indian representatives of various public bodies, at which resolutions have been passed condemning the outbreaks of sedition on the part of a small section of the Indian community, expressing their loyalty to the Government, and appealing to the masses of the population to adhere firmly to the side of law and order; and if so, whether he will consider the advisability of publishing such resolutions.
  THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BUCHANAN,): The Answer to the first Question is in the affirmative; many of the resolutions passed at the meetings referred to have boon published in the newspapers, and the Secretary of State does not see any advantage in the course proposed in the question.

  Indian Political Prisoners.
  MR. HART-DAVIES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether any political prisoners are or will be among those released in accordance with His Majesty's gracious message.
  MR. BUCHANAN: As I stated in reply to a Question on Monday, no distinction is made between political and other prisoners. The present reductions in sentences are on similar lines to those made at the time of His Majesty's coronation.
  DR. RUTHERFORD: Has Mr. Tilak's sentence been reduced?
  *MR. REES: Has not his sentence been largely reduced or mitigated already?
  MR. BUCHANAN: He will be treated in exactly the same way as the other prisoners.
  *MR. LUPTON: Is it a fact that the popular demand in India is for the release of Barabbas?

  Political Prisoners in India.
  SIR H. COTION: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can state the number of political prisoners in India who have been released or have had their sentences remitted on the occasion of His Majesty the King's gracious proclamation.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I have just given to the hon. Member for Hackney.
  SIR H. COTTON: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give the number of political prisoners?
  *MR. BUCHANAN: No, Sir. As I have before explained, all prisoners will be treated alike, and the reduction of sentences will proceed on the same lines as at the Coronation—a month being taken off for every year of sentence. It is impossible yet to say how many prisoners will be actually released.
  SIR H. COTTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain?
  MR. BUCHANAN: I do not think it necessary to make the inquiry at the moment.
  *MR. REES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether equality of treatment with ordinary convicts is being accorded to those who are described as political offenders, but whose offences are of a far more serious character?
  MR. BUCHANAN: Yes; the treatment of prisoners in gaol is uniform.
  SIR H. COTTON: And in all cases they are subjected to hard labour, I believe.

  Political Agitator and Pensions.
  SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India have reversed the order of the Chief Commissioner of the Central Provinces
  1394
  depriving a retired official of his pension on the ground that he had taken part in political demonstrations; and, if not, whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into the facts of the case with a view to the reversal of this order.
  MR. BUCHANAN: So far as the Secretary of State is aware, the retired official referred to has not yet appealed to the Government of India. We had a letter to that effect about a fortnight ago, since when the Secretary of State has no information.
  SIR H. COTTON: Having regard to the importance of this Question, in which I take very considerable personal interest, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the opinion of the Government, a Government pensioner is liable to have his pension taken from him if he takes part in political demonstrations?
  *MR. REES: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it fair that a rule of this character should be enforced only in the case of subordinate pensioners and that it should not apply also to the superior pensioners of the Government?
  MR. BUCHANAN: I gather the hon. Member wishes the rule applied as widely as possible. That is a general question which I am not prepared to answer.

  The King's Proclamation to India.
  MR. EUGENE WASON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will be prepared to issue as a Parliamentary Paper the Proclamation of the King, Emperor of India, to the princes and people of India, of the 2nd of this month, and at the same time the Proclamation of the late Queen Victoria of 1st November, 1858, to the princes, chiefs, and people of India.
  MR. BUCHANAN: If the hon. Member will move for the Papers I shall be happy to lay them on the Table.

  Military Churches in India.
  *SIR J. JARDINK: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India what authority suggested the transfer of the Gordon Highlanders from Jullundhur to Fort William at Calcutta

  1395
  at an expense to the Indian taxpayer of £1,770; and whether the arrangements of the Fort William garrison allowed the Presbyterian officers and rank and file any further religious privileges, especially as regards the sacraments, than had been enjoyed in the Government church of Jullundhur cantonment, and an espiscopal outbuilding in Fort William was placed at their disposal and used for celebrating the sacrament of the Lord's Supper.
  MR. BUCHANAN: The Gordon Highlanders were sent from Peshawur, not to Jullundhur but to Calcutta, by the military authorities in accordance with the principle laid down in the Secretary of State's despatch dated the 27th December, 1907, which is printed in the Cd. Paper 4022. I gave the hon. Member on the 28th October the information that we have from India as to the church accommodation available for the regiment in Calcutta; it does not contain a statement that an "Episcopal outbuilding" was placed at their disposal for communion services.

  Nyassaland Slave Raid.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official information showing that slave traders from Portuguese Mozambique recently raided Nyassaland and carried off 100 natives of the Protectorate; whether the captives were subsequently released; and whether the Government can give any explanation of the circumstances of the raid.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Colonel SEELY,): The Secretary of State has received no information regarding the matter, but will cause inquiry to be made.

  Opium Permits in the Transvaal.
  MR. FULLERTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the number of permits which have been issued by the magistrates authorising the holders to obtain opium under the Ordinance issued by the Transvaal Legislature; and whether he proposes to make any representations to secure that the Ordinance will be rescinded, so as to effect the
  1396
  suppression of the illicit traffic in opium which now takes place.
  COLONEL SEELY: I have no information with regard to the number of permits. With regard to the Ordinance generally I would refer to my reply to a similar Question by my hon. friend the Member for Stirlingshire on 22nd October.
  MR. FULLERTON: Would there be any difficulty in getting the information?
  COLONEL SEELY: I do not think so; the object is to restrict the sale of opium.

  Labour Recruiting in Madagascar.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now lay Papers giving the correspondence between the Imperial Government and that of the Transvaal and the French Government respecting the recruiting of labour in Madagascar for the Transvaal mines, in accordance with the undertaking given to the House on 12th March last.
  COLONEL SEELY: Yes, Sir; Papers shall be laid.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: When will they be in the hands of Members?
  COLONEL SEELY: As soon as possible.

  Ceylon Imports of Teas.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what revenue was derived from the importation of Indian teas to Ceylon during the years 1905–6–7, respectively.
  COLONEL SEELY. The quantities of tea from British India entered for consumption in Ceylon were 299 lbs. in 1905, 179 lbs. in 1906, and 319 lbs. in 1907. The import duty is 25 cents, a lb.

  Retrenched Transvaal Civil Servants.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies how many retrenched Civil servants, railway employees, and members of the South African Constabulary have been found appointments by the Colonial Office in this country and in our over-sea Dominions, respectively.
  COLONEL SEELY: Government appointments in the Colonies and Protectorates, or in this country, have been offered to twenty-six retrenched Civil servants, three railway employees, and twenty-eight members of the South African Constabulary. In eleven cases the appointments were declined. Of the forty-six appointments made, forty-three were to posts in the Colonies, three to posts in this country.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether this Government will take into consideration a grant of money to the Civil servants retrenched from the Transvaal and Orange River Colony administrations, in view of the inadequate compensation given them and the responsibility which rests on this country in relation to men who were led to believe that their positions would be permanent and pensionable.
  COLONEL SEELY: No, Sir. His Majesty's Government, while feeling every sympathy with Civil servants who have lost their positions owing to a policy of retrenchment forced upon the Colonial Governments by the necessity of readjusting the Civil Service to normal conditions, cannot undertake to ask Parliament to make money grants to supplement the compensation given them. With regard to the hon. Member's description of the compensation as inadequate, I may state that the compensation granted by the present Transvaal Government has not been less liberal than that granted by the Crown Colony Administration.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERasked the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether it was not the fact that, under the Crown Colony Administration, a great many of the Civil servants who were retrenched understood that their occupation was merely temporary, while those who had been discharged during the last two years were chiefly those whose employment was considered to be permanent.
  COLONEL SEELY: I cannot accept that statement. If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the debate in which my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade made a statement on the subject, he will see that 187 persons were
  1398
  retrenched under the same conditions of tenure and under the same conditions in every respect, and, so far as I am aware, the hon. Gentleman asked no questions on the subject then.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERasked whether the Government considered the compensation as set forth in the Blue-book, which, in a great many cases, was scarcely sufficient to bring the retrenched Civil servants back to the country from which they came, was adequate compensation, and had the Government finally decided that they would do nothing whatever to supplement the compensation granted by the Transvaal?
  COLONEL SEELY: I fear I can add nothing to the Answer I have given. As I have said, the terms are not less liberal than those which were granted under the preceding Crown Colony Administration, which was under our control, and the scheme of compensation is practically the same as that adopted in Cape Colony, where very large retrenchments are in course of being made. I do not think we could take the step of asking for a grant.

  Coloured Subjects of the Crown.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether this Government will take into consideration the desirability of summoning a conference representative of all portions of the Empire to discuss the question of the migration of coloured races within the Empire, their admission to or exclusion from the self-governing Dominions and the Crown Colonies, and their status if admitted, and also the possibility of establishing communities of our coloured fellow subjects in portions of the Empire where no objection would be taken to their settlement.
  COLONEL SEELY: The whole question is receiving the fullest attention from the Secretary of State, but as at present advised he does not think that any advantage would result from such a conference as is suggested in the Question.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Was the decision arrived at on the ground that the time was inopportune or because the Government rejected the proposal?
  COLONEL SEELY: There were many reasons; I cannot give the precise one.
  EARL WINTERTON: Before coming to a decision, did the Government consult the Colonial Premiers?
  COLONEL SEELY: No, Sir; the self-governing Dominions have made no representations to us in the matter. If the noble Lord will refer to the letter he will see the conference proposed was on a much wider basis.
  EARL WINTERTON: Have any representations been made to them on the subject?
  COLONEL SEELY: No suggestions came from them.

  Labour Death Bate in South Africa.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the death rate of Chinese and African coolies in South Africa, respectively, from disease and other causes, and what are those causes.
  COLONEL SEELY: The last Transvaal quarterly return of mortality of mine employees to 30th June last is as follows. The figures show the rate per thousand:—Accidents, yellow, 4·870; black, 3·139. Homicide and suicide, yellow, 2·783; black, ·428. Diseases, yellow, 8·349; black, 28·468.
  LORD R. CECIL: Can the hon. and gallant gentleman explain why it is that the blacks die three times as often as the Chinese?
  COLONEL SEELY: No, Sir, I cannot explain why the blacks die three or even four times as often. Nor can I explain why the Chinese commit suicide six times as often.
  MR. WEDGWOODasked whether the excessive figure of black mortality was not due to the recruiting of natives from Portuguese territory, especially that part north of the Zambesi, and whether any steps would be taken to limit the recruiting of these natives.
  COLONEL SEELYwas understood to say that the recruiting was limited, and that, in order to avoid the excessive mortality which prevailed, no recruiting was taking place from areas so far north.

  Transvaal Alien Immigration Law.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Transvaal law against the immigration of Asiatics would operate to the exclusion of Asiatics who are naturalised subjects of Portugal.
  COLONEL SEELY: I am now able to give a more detailed reply to my honourable friend's Question. The Answer would depend upon the legal interpretation of Article II. of the Treaty of 1875, between Portugal and the late South African Republic; Article X. of the modus vivendi of 1901, concluded between the High Commissioner for South Africa and the Governor-General of Mozambique; and the several Transvaal Acts relating to Asiatics. It would appear that such an interpretation could only be given with authority by a decision of a Court of Law.

  Japanese Infringements of British Trade Marks.
  SIR GEORGE SCOTT ROBERTSON: I bog to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the continued use by certain Japanese merchants of counterfeits of the registered British trade-marks borne upon Bradford and Manchester piece goods; whether he is aware that this practice has increased greatly of late; and if so, whether any steps are contemplated by His Majesty's Government to bring about some arrangement with Japan whereby such British trade marks shall be adequately protected.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,): The reply to the first Question is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative. As regards the protection of British trade-marks in Japan, His Majesty's Government have been in communication with the Japanese Government, and it is understood that, owing to recent decisions of the Japanese Courts,

  1401
  the position is now more satisfactory. As regards the fraudulent use of British trade-marks in China, negotiations for the conclusion of a Convention with Japan are now proceeding for the mutual protection of British and Japanese trademarks in that country.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERasked if His Majesty's Government were pressing for the better protection of British trademarks?
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid that several cases had been brought before the Courts recently and in two or three important ones Japanese manufacturers, had been fined for imitating British trademarks. He must repeat that the position might now be considered satisfactory in that respect.

  Chinese Foreign Trade.
  MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the date on which the Report on the foreign trade of China for the year 1907, No. 41152, Annual Series, which has just been published was despatched from Peking; the date on which it was received at the Foreign Office; and the date on which it was delivered to the printer.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Report on the foreign trade of China for the year 1907 was despatched from Peking on 10th July last, was received by the Department on 5th, August, and finally delivered to the printer, after revision, on 17th October. The interval between the date of receipt of the Report and delivery to the printer was due to the fact that the Report, which is a very elaborate one, arrived with a considerable number of others at a time when, owing to the short interval between the sessions of Parliament, the staff at the Board of Trade, which examines the Reports in conjunction with the Foreign Office, was unusually weakened by the absence of officials on annual leave. I might add that the arrangements in regard to the editing of these Reports are still in an experimental stage, and steps are being taken in conjunction with the Board of Trade as a result of the experience gained, to expedite publication in future.

  The Steam Trawler "General."
  SIR GEORGE DOUGHTY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply, if any, he has received from the German Government on the case of the arrest on the high seas of the steam trawler "General" by the German gunboat "Zeeder" on 9th of May last, when the s.s. "General" was boarded by a German crew from the gunboat and taken to Cuxhaven, the captain imprisoned, and his cargo of fish destroyed, after which he was tried before a German Court and proved his innocence, and the crew and ship were released; and whether he will take steps to obtain an apology from the commander of the gunboat for his proceedings, and compensation to the fishermen and owners for the loss they have sustained.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: A sworn statement of losses incurred by the steam trawler "General" has only recently boon furnished by the managing owner of that vessel, and His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Berlin has been instructed to submit to the German Government a claim for compensation.

  Russian Troops on the Persian Frontier.
  MR. LYNCH: I bog to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a force of Russian troops of all arms, estimated to have a strength of at least 5,000 men, is shortly expected at Julfa, on the Persian frontier; and can he state what objects this force has in view.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I have no information beyond that contained in my reply given on the 27th ultimo to the hon. Member for Brentford.

  Prison Warders' Hours of Duty.
  MR. WARDLE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can state what number of extra men would be required if the hours of warders in convict prisons were reduced to eight per day; and whether, in view of the amount of unemployment in the country, he can see his way to a revision to that number.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL,): It is estimated that to work

  1403
  the convict system effectively with an eight - hour day for officers would require an addition of between 150 and 160 officers to the staff, at a cost of about £15,000 a year. My right hon. friend does not see his way to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.

  Motor Omnibus Nuisances.
  MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, seeing that Clause 23 of the Police Regulations provides that no smoke must be projected from the exhaust or from any other part of a motor omnibus, and that the Regulation further provides that this condition will be insisted upon at all times, he will say whether the Commissioner of Police has any knowledge that any motor omnibus emits petrol smoke or stink, licensed under Clause 23 of the Police Regulations.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: Yes, Sir. As my right hon. friend has stated in reply to previous Questions, the Commissioner of Police has taken action in a number of such cases, and has ordered the offending vehicles off the streets until their defects are remedied.
  MR. MARKHAM: Am I to understand that there are no omnibuses on the streets at the present time emitting smoke or smell?
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I do not know whether there are any that have not been discovered. An omnibus which is originally innocent may develop defects.
  MR. MORRELL: How soon can they go on the roads again?
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: As soon as the defect is remedied. I may point out that last year the number ordered off the streets for this reason was 183.
  MR. MARKHAM: Will the hon. gentleman order off the streets all omnibuses against which complaints are brought to the notice of the Commissioner of Police?
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: No doubt the Commissioner of Police will be glad
  1404
  to give attention to any information on the subject.

  British Consuls in the Colonies.
  MR. DU CROS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken in response to the representations of the Colonial Premiers as to the appointment of consuls and vice-consuls in the important towns of New Zealand and other British Colonies; and whether he will furnish a list of all such appointments made during the past eighteen months.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. CHURCHILL,): My hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. As I stated in answer to a Question put to me by the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth yesterday, four trade Commissioners have been appointed in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, respectively. We have also appointed a number of local trade correspondents at various places in Canada and in Newfoundland during the period referred to, in accordance with the system which had been previously adopted in South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand. I will have a complete list of the names of the present trade Commissioners and correspondents in the Dominions and self-governing Colonies printed in the Votes.
  MR. DU CROS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the previous system was absolutely condemned at the last Conference? Are the suggestions of the Colonial Premiers to be utterly ignored?
  MR. CHURCHILL: We have followed the course which has been adopted for a long time, and which until now has not been challenged.

  Overtime in the Post Office.
  MR. W. THORNE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will carry out paragraph 353 of the Hobhouse Committee's Report as to the diminution of overtime by sanctioning additional established posts in the Post Office, and thus do something to relieve the unemployed.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): The policy recommended by the

  1405
  recent Select Committee on Post Office I Wages in paragraph 353 of their Report, in regard to the reduction of overtime, with which I am entirely in accord, is being steadily pursued.
  MR. W. THORNE: I beg to ask the Postmaster - General whether it would be possible to employ a number of additional men in the Post Office were all postmen's duties confined to not more than two attendances and completed within twelve hours; and, if so, whether he will issue instructions to amend the regulations in the above-mentioned direction.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: It would not be possible, without a considerable waste of force, to arrange for all postmen's duties to be confined to not more than two attendances and completed within twelve hours. This fact was recognised by the recent Select Committee on Post Office Servants. In arranging duties endeavours are always made to reduce the number of separate attendances as far as practicable, and considerable steps in this direction have been taken of late.

  Postal Servants and Politics.
  MR. WARDLE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the presence on the platform at the annual meeting and conference of the Gloucester division of the National Union of the Conservative and Constitutional Association, held at the Town Hall, Tewkesbury, on 14th October, 1908, of Mr. Thomas Williams, the postmaster of that town; whether the action of Mr. Williams is contrary to the Treasury Regulations; and, if so, what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I am inquiring into the matter, which had not previously been brought to my notice.
  EARL WINTERTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman at the same time inquire into any cases of Socialist members of the Post Office staff attending Socialist meetings?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: If my attention is called to any such case I will inquire.
  EARL WINTERTON: I will call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to cases.

  Post Office Engineers.
  MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will state the number of each of the following grades of civil officials in the Engineering Department of the Post Office in Ireland to be replaced in the event of the proposed transfer of the military from England to Ireland, viz.: engineers (all classes), clerks, inspectors, mechanics, linemen, foremen, sub-foremen, skilled and unskilled labourers; and also the total amount paid in salaries, wages, and allowances to all these classes during the past twelve months.
  I beg also to ask the Postmaster-General whether it is the intention to transfer the military to the northern engineering district of Ireland and upon the same lines as at present suggested for the southern engineering district of Ireland; and will he explain in what particulars the telegraphic and telephonic engineering work in Ireland would be more suitable for military training purposes, and in what respect does the work differ from that at present done in the south of England.
  I beg further to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in the event of the proposed transfer of the Royal Engineers into the southern district of Ireland, the telegraph mechanics who are now employed in the southern districts will be affected by the proposed change; and, if so, will he take steps to secure them employment in some other centre in Ireland.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I will answer these throe Questions together. If the Royal Engineers are transferred to the southern district of Ireland the following numbers of civilian officers will be replaced:—1 assisting superintending engineer, 2 first class engineers, 1 second class engineer, 3 sub engineers, 13 clerks, 3 inspectors, 8 mechanics, 31 linemen. For many of these, except the mechanics, places will be available in the northern district of Ireland, which will continue to be staffed by civilian engineers. Places will be found for the others else-whore. In the opinion of the War Office

  1407
  the work in Ireland is more suitable for the training of the Royal Engineers because it has more resemblance to that which military engineers might be called upon to perform in the field, and because it provides training in railway block signalling, etc., which cannot be obtained in England. The total amount paid in wages, salaries, etc., in the southern district of Ireland in the past twelve months was £24,823.
  MR. NANNETTI: Will not this introduction of the military element into Ireland prevent young and intelligent students from competing for posts in the Civil Service?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I should like notice of that Question, but it is a matter rather for the War Office as to the particular district most suitable for training Royal Engineers.

  Telephonists' Hours of Duty.
  MR. W. THORNE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether the night telephonists in London were represented before the Hobhouse Committee; whether their hours of duty are 54 per week, composed of night and Sunday duty; whether he will state what recommendations of the Select Committee bore on these hours of duty; and whether he will consider the possibility of reducing them.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The night telephonists in London were not represented before the Hobhouse Committee, but, in accordance with the Committee's recommendation in paragraph 5 of their Report, I have considered the conditions of employment of those men. Their hours of duty are 54 per week, made up of night and Sunday work, and is largely watching duty. There does not appear to be any reason to alter these hours.

  Christmas Pressure in the Post Office.
  MR. CLYNES: I beg to ask the Postmaster - General whether, in order to facilitate the employment of men who would otherwise be out of work, he will issue instructions to all postmasters that, during the Christmas pressure, no persons in regular employment such as teachers, clerks, Civil servants, and others, shall be employed
  1408
  for extra time; and whether those who are to be engaged will also be limited to reasonable working hours.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: As I have already stated in this House, in choosing the temporary men required for postal work at Christmastide preference will be given to genuinely unemployed married men of good character suitable for the work. I have issued instructions to postmasters to this effect. The regular attendance to be given by these temporary men will be eight hours a day, but at the height of the Christmas pressure those hours are necessarily extended on particular days.

  Telephone Construction Work at Newcastle on Tyne.
  MR. HUDSON: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether in Newcastle-upon-Tyne an estimate for telephone construction work has boon prepared and has been approved by the engineer-in-chief; and whether he can say what steps, if any, are being taken for the carrying out of the work.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: In Newcastle itself a few pipes are being laid, and considerable work in the construction of trunk lines is going on in the engineering district in which Newcastle is situated. A contract for an underground line of between five and six miles in length is about to be made.

  Prosecution of a Clyde Pilot.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been called to the case of a Clyde pilot, William M'Kinlay, who was prosecuted on 15th May last in the Glasgow Sheriffs Court for reckless navigation when in charge of the s.s. "Maracas"; if so, will he say why his Department delayed six months in instituting this case; and why the case was then brought forward at a time when the officers and crew of the "Maracas," who were the chief witnesses for the defence, were hundreds of miles from Glasgow.
  THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,): My attention has been called to this case. The hon. Member is in error in supposing that there was any delay in the Department.

  1409
  On the contrary, the evidence was furnished by the Admiralty on 5th May, and within ten days M'Kinlay was tried and convicted. As to the concluding inquiry, both before and during the trial, the procurator fiscal offered to agree to a continuation of the case if M'Kinlay—who was defended by a firm of solicitors of experience and standing—desired it in order to enable him to obtain the evidence of witnesses from the "Maracas." He did not desire such continuation and elected to proceed with the trial.
  MR. WATT: Was the delay in the hon. Gentleman's Department or on the part of the Admiralty?
  MR. THOMAS SHAWsuggested that the Question should be addressed to the First Lord.
  MR. JOYCE: Was there not an assessor on the bench at the hearing and, if not, why not?
  MR. THOMAS SHAWasked for notice.

  Irish National School Work-Mistresses.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether work-mistresses in national schools of two years good service are debarred from any share of the grant of £114,000 recently allocated; and, if so, whether, seeing that those are the lowest-paid teachers in the service, having salaries ranging from £12 to £14 per annum only, he will see that they get something from this now grant.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL,): I must refer the hon. Member to my reply to a similar Question asked by the hon. Member for South Belfast on the 4th instant.

  Riverstown Cattle-Drive Fatality.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, owing to the firing of a party of police on an unarmed crowd assembled at Riverstown, county Sligo, on Thursday morning, 29th October, a young man named John Stenson lost his life by a rifle bullet; and, if so, what steps will be taken to have the perpetrator discovered.
  MR. LONSDALE: At the same time, may I ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will give the House full particulars of the fatal conflict between cattle-drivers and the police at Riverstown, county Sligo, on the 29th instant.
  MR. BIRRELL: On the occasion in question, shortly after midnight, a force of ton police under a head constable, was on certain lands from which the cattle had twice been driven. A body of over 100 men entered the field and approached the cattle. They refused to retire when called on to do so, and attacked the police with stones. The head constable in charge of the party was struck on the head with a stone and knocked down, and other constables were also injured. A shot was fired from the crowd, and the police were driven back by volleys of stones. The crowd rapidly closed on the police, and the head constable, believing the lives of his men to be in imminent danger, ordered them to fire. The crowd repeatedly fired at the police with revolvers, and did not retire until the police had fired a second and third time. The dead body of a young man named John Stenson was subsequently found in the field with a bullet wound in the head. These facts speak for themselves. An inquest has been held, and it is not intended to hold any further inquiry.
  MR. LONSDALEasked whether, having regard to the fatal consequences of a reliance on the ordinary law, the right hon. Gentleman now intended to use the Criminal Law (Procedure) Act.
  MR. BIRRELL: That is not my intention.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Were any police officers wounded by the use of revolvers?
  MR. BIRRELL: No, not by the use of revolvers, but by stones very badly.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Does not that show there was no intention to wound? They must have been bad marksmen not to hit one of eleven policemen in a field.
  MR. LONSDALE: Is it fair to the police to withhold an inquiry?
  *MR. SPEAKEE: That is a matter of opinion.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: What evidence has the right hon. Gentleman that any firearms were used by the people? Has the right hon. Gentleman not received information to the contrary effect?
  MR. BIRRELL: I have to deal with a small force of policemen, eleven men in all, who appeared to have behaved with great discretion and to have been completely under command. They only fired at the command of their officer, and they tell me, without any hesitation or doubt, that the firing proceded from the crowd at first. I cannot doubt that they are correct in that view, and I cannot see how you could obtain evidence of such a kind as to affect the merit and force of their evidence.
  MR. LONSDALE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many lives are required to be sacrificed?
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has been in the House long enough to know that Questions of that sort are not permissible.

  Limerick Technical Institute.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has any information with regard to the granting of the loan of £10,000 applied for by the County Borough Council of Limerick towards the building of a central technical institute in that city; and whether, taking into account the want of employment that exists and the necessity of doing something towards its relief, this loan may be granted and work that is needed started at once.
  MR. BIREELL: I understand that the difficulty about making the loan in question arises from the fact that the borrowing powers of the Limerick Council have already been substantially exhausted. I am anxious, however, to give all the assistance I can to the carrying out of this highly desirable project, and am in communication with the proper authority as to whether the difficulty about making the loan may be overcome.
  MR. JOYCE: Then what becomes of the statement of the President of the Local Government Board that loans would be advanced to public bodies in order to tide over the distress this winter?
  MR. BIRRELL: The whole question is one of law—whether loans of this character can be authorised. I have this matter very much at heart and am doing my best to overcome the difficulty.

  Mr. W. Reeves' West Clare Estate.
  MR. HALPIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will have inquiries made from Judge Ross why his order to have the property of Mr. William V. Reeves, which includes the salmon fishery, sold has not been carried out; whether he is aware that close on 3,000 acres are let on the eleven months grazing system; and whether he will use his influence with the Estates Commissioners to purchase the property, so as to have it divided amongst the small farmers and labourers of Killimer and Knock, west Clare.
  MR. BIRRELL: I am informed that the order for the sale of this estate is being carried out according to the usual practice of the Land Judge's Court. The proceedings have not reached a stage at which the Estates Commissioners could make an offer for purchase I understand that the whole estate comprises about 2,800 acres, of which only about 215 are let for grazing.

  Labourers' Cottages in Athlone.
  SIR WALTER NUGENT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, owing to exceptional local circumstances, no labourers' cottages have been built in some parts of Athlone (No. 1) Rural District, no tenders have been received for the erection of cottages long ago sited, and the labourers still live in houses some of which were condemned by local authorities 20 months ago; and whether, in view of these facts, he will advise the Local Government Board for Ireland to authorise the above-mentioned district council to increase the limit of £130, now allowed for the erection of labourers' cottages, by amounts not in any case exceeding £10 where, in the opinion of

  1413
  the council, such increases are absolutely necessary.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Local Government Board are not aware of exceptional local circumstances in this case. The loan sanctioned is at the rate of £175 per cottage or £5 above the usual average. The Board are not prepared to authorise any supplemental loan, and think that the rural district council should by due economy be able to carry out the scheme within the limit of £175 per cottage. Should no reasonable tenders be received, it is open to the council to consider the propriety of carrying out some of the works themselves.

  Boycotting Statistics.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the Return No. 6 of the session of 1888, laid by the then Chief Secretary, showing that while at the date of the passing of the Criminal Law and Procedure Act of 1887, the number of boycotted persons in Ireland was 4,835, the number had been decreased during the succeeding six months by upwards of 50 per cent.; whether he is aware that in July, 1892, the number of cases of boycotting throughout Ireland had been reduced to three; whether he is aware that between 31st January, 1907, and 31st August, 1908, the number of boycotted persons has increased from 216 to 754; and whether he can explain the fluctuations in the statistics during the periods mentioned.
  MR. BIRRELL: My attention has been called to the Return in question showing that the number of persons seriously boycotted on 31st July, 1887, was 4,835, and that the number on 31st January, 1888, was 2,075. The number of persons similarly boycotted in July, 1892, was sixteen. In January, 1907, the number was fifty-two, and in August last 115. The figures for 1907 and 1908, quoted by the hon. Member, include cases of minor boycotting which were not recorded before 1902. It is not possible within the limits of an oral reply to analyse the various causes of these fluctuations.
  MR. LONSDALE: Do not these facts show that the right hon. Gentleman is condoning the offence of boycotting?
  *MR. SPEAKER: That is a purely argumentative Question which the hon. Member ought not to put. The object of Questions is to obtain information.

  Nationalist Newspapers and the Police.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether cautionary notices have been served by the Irish Government on the proprietors of certain newspapers in Ireland, practically threatening them with penal consequences if they do not exclude from their journals certain items of news; if so, will he state under what statute the Irish Government has acted in this matter; and whether it has any warrant or authority for this action.
  MR. BIRRELL: The attention of the police having been called to the publication in certain newspapers of notices purporting to be reports of meetings at which individuals, designated by name or by a description so accurate as to be equivalent to naming, were threatened with boycotting and other forms of intimidation, the police, by direction of Government, have given an oral warning to the proprietors and editors of these newspapers that the publication of such notices is illegal and if persisted in will necessitate the taking of legal proceedings. I entirely approve of the action of the police in this matter. The issue of a warning by them is a cautionary measure and needs no statutory authority, I may add that this is by no means a new departure. Within recent years it was found necessary to warn certain Irish newspapers of the illegality of publishing advertisements of foreign lotteries.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Do I understand that no written notice has been served? Is it not a fact that certain letters have been written to editors of newspapers in Ireland, and, if so, will the right hon. Gentleman produce the letters? May I also ask whether there is any precedent for action of this kind except under a coercion regime?
  MR. BIRRELLsaid he had been told that no letters had been written and that the warnings—friendly warnings, he should describe them—had been delivered orally. There was no coercion in the matter. The publication of things of

  1415
  this kind was illegal, and he saw no harm in giving people notice that they were pursuing an illegal practice.
  MR. JAMES CAMPBELLasked if this illegal practice had not been going on for the last two years, and why it was only now taken notice of.
  MR. BIRRELL: Things of this sort are left to the Executive. The right hon. Gentleman must be perfectly aware that even when Ireland had the advantage of his services things happened which might have been made the subject of prosecution, but were not. I have acted in this matter, I consider, with a wise discretion.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIENinquired whether these notices, either written or oral, might not be described as threatening? Would they appear in the next return of threatening letters?
  MR. BIRRELL: No, Sir: I think they were the most friendly notices in the world.
  LORD R. CECIL: Is there any legal objection to writing letters warning people that they are transgressing the law?
  MR. BIRRELL: None whatever. Both courses are open, but in this case we proceeded orally.
  MR. LONSDALE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether there are not powers conferred upon him by the Crimes Act to deal with these offences?
  [No Answer was given.]
  MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether certain Irish newspapers have been informed that the attention of the Government has been directed to the publication of resolutions criminally libelling and intimidating owners of grazing lands and other persons, and that, if these publications were repeated, a Government prosecution would follow; and, if so, whether he will give the names of the papers and lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the communication.
  MR. BIRRELL: As regards the first part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the Question of the hon. Member for Waterford which I have just answered. The warning is being given orally and I am not in a position to give a list of the newspapers concerned.

  Case of Mrs. Sammon, Carrowkennedy, County Mayo.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether anything has been done to carry out the promise of the Estates Commissioners, made many months ago, to provide a holding for Widow Sammon of Carrowkennedy, County Mayo; whether he is aware that the sum in dispute at the time of her eviction, nine years ago, was only £20, and that the special police barracks erected on the evicted holding costs the Imperial Treasury at least £500 a year, and might be dispensed with if this woman were provided with a new holding, or a reasonable offer made to the occupier of her old holding.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissions have noted Mrs. Sammon's name for a holding or lands in County Mayo which they have gazetted for compulsory acquisition under the Evicted Tenants Act. An objection under Section 2 of the Act has been lodged and until the lands have been acquired the Commissioners cannot take any further action, As regards the latter part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his Question on 3rd June last.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication when there will be a definite settlement in this case? Is not this district one of the most crimeless in the country, and indeed, in the world, and can the right hon. Gentleman not impress upon his Commission that there is a better way of expressing gratitude to the Irish people than to spend five years in tinkering over the case of a poor woman and employing policemen solely to shadow her?
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners are doing their best to settle this case.

  Cattle-Drives.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many cattle-drives have taken place in the Riverstown district since the fatal affray on 29th October; whether the police were present at any of them; and how many police are now stationed in this district.
  MR. BIRRELL: There has not been any cattle-drive in the Riverstown district since 29th October. There are at present at Riverstown twenty-one police under the command of a head constable.
  MR. LONSDALE: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider there is a sufficient force of police in the district to preserve order?
  MR. BIRRELL: I will convey the doubt of the hon. Member to the Inspector-General.

  Cork Evicted Tenants.
  MR. SHEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution adopted at a recent meeting of the Cork Evicted Tenants' Association, setting forth that the evicted tenants observed with deep concern and dismay that the Estates Commissioners decline to take any steps whatever towards the reinstatement of the tenants evicted since 1903, unless and until the estates from which they were evicted come to be dealt with before them; that the evicted tenants consider this a great hardship, and believe that the grievance is one which should be considered by Parliament in connection with the forthcoming Land Bill; whether he will state what are the intentions of the Government in regard to the position of this special class of evicted tenants; and whether it is intended to legislate on their behalf.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have received a copy of the resolution referred to. The Evicted Tenants Act does not apply to tenants evicted subsequent to the passing of the Irish Land Act, 1903. Such cases are inquired into when the estate is being dealt with under the Act of 1903. It is not intended to introduce further legislation with respect to evicted tenants.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the case of the 2,000 or 3,000 evicted tenants whose applications have been rejected without any reason given or without hearing? Cannot he give these poor people an appeal to the County Court Judge?
  MR. BIRRELL: I am ready to consider any cases that may be urgent, but I do not think such cases can be included in the forthcoming measure.

  Giant's Causeway.
  MR. FULLERTON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a mining syndicate has acquired legal rights over the Giant's Causeway, on the North Antrim coast, enabling them to quarry the Causeway; and whether steps will be taken to prevent this columnar basalt from being quarried and broken up for road metal, or other commercial purposes.
  MR. BIRRELL: My attention has been called to a newspaper article indicating that quarrying rights over the Giant's Causeway have been acquired by a mining syndicate. I understand that there is no foundation for the statement in question beyond the fact that quarries are being opened near Portrush some miles away.

  Sales of Firearms in the West of Ireland.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that firearms are being sold freely in the West of Ireland on the instalment plan; and whether, having regard to the fact that outrages with firearms have been quadrupled since the dropping of the Peace Preservation Act, he will introduce legislation immediately to deal with this evil.
  MR. BIRRELL: The inspector-general of the Royal Irish Constabulary has received no official information that arms are being sold in Ireland on the instalment plan, and he is not aware of any means by which precise information on the subject could be obtained. As regards the second part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the similar Question asked by the hon.

  1419
  and gallant Member for East Down on 29th October.
  MR. LONSDALE: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that statements to the effect given in the Question have appeared in most of the Irish newspapers?
  MR. BIRRELL: No, I am not aware of it.

  Cattle-driving in North Clare.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the number of cattle-drives reported from North Clare prior to the 20th September; whether an official shorthand writer attended the meeting held on that date under the auspices of the United Irish League at Lisdoonvarna; whether he furnished a transcript of the notes of speeches made by the hon. Members for East Clare and East Limerick; whether, the transcript discloses any expression of encouragement or disapproval of cattle-driving; and whether he will state the number of cattle-drives that have taken place in that district since the date named.
  MR. BIRRELL: Prior to 20th September last there were fifty-five cattle-drives reported from North Clare, and since then twenty-seven have taken place. No official shorthand-writer attended the meeting held at Lisdoonvarna on the date named.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that, though no shorthand note was taken of the speech the hon. Member for East Clare is perfectly prepared to repeat the speech word for word, only it will take him an hour and three quarters?
  MR. BIRRELL: I am quite sure that is so.

  Potato Disease in Ireland.
  MR. J. MACVEAGHasked for information with regard to an outbreak of black scab among the potatoes in Ireland.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE FOR IRELAND (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL,)regretted to say that the
  1420
  newspaper reports as to an outbreak of "black scab" among the potato crop in Ireland were true. He had received a telegram stating that "black scab" had been reported from two centres in County Down. The inspector had visited the district and declared the disease in both cases to be "black scab." In one case the potatoes had been dug, and the inspector had ordered the immediate destruction of a portion of the crop, and his order had been complied with. In the other case the crop was still in the ground and notice had been served that the potatoes were to be left in the ground pending further instructions. He did not think that the Department could be armed with greater authority than it possessed under their Acts of Parliament to deal with a calamity of this kind. Recognising it to be a calamity to Ireland, the Department would leave nothing undone to stop the progress of the disease.
  MR. SHEEHAN: Has the right hon. Gentleman not already received representations from farmers' associations and other bodies in Ireland asking him absolutely to prohibit the importation of potatoes from England or Scotland into Ireland?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I have received one such notice from the County Dublin Farmers' Association, but there is nothing in it with regard to the importation of potatoes, and I am reluctant to issue an order to stop importation when perhaps it is not coming from England or Scotland at all. In England the disease is slightly prevalent in the low-lying parts where continuous cropping has taken place, and I rather think it will be found that is the real origin of the disease in Ireland. I would ask the hon. Member not to press me on that point, because I object to issue any order stepping the importation of seed potatoes without any real ground.
  MR. LONSDALE: Will the owners of the crops destroyed receive compensation?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Compensation cannot be given without the consent of the local authority. That is also a question to be considered.

  Strabane and Letterkenny Railway.
  MR. C. MACVEIGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Strabane to Letterkenny Railway, East Donegal, was practically completed, inspected, and passed by the Board of Works in July last, with the exception of the station at Strabane, which the Joint Committee seemed to disagree about; whether the Donegal County Council have given a guarantee in connection with this railway, which is being levied off the guaranteeing area, and the ratepayers are deriving no benefit from the line; whether he can state what is the cause of the delay; and whether he will take steps to have this line opened for traffic immediately and thereby provide some little employment, which is much needed in the district.
  MR. CHURCHILL: My right hon. friend has asked mo to answer this Question. The railway was inspected on behalf of the Board of Trade in July last and its opening for passenger traffic between Letterkenny and Raphoe was then sanctioned. The Board were, at the time, unable to sanction the opening of the section of the line between Raphoe and Strabane owing to the incompleteness of the terminal arrangements at the latter place, but the railway company were informed that a re-inspection of the works would be made so soon as the requirements of the inspecting officer had been complied with. The company have not yet notified the Department that the outstanding works have been completed, but the hon. Member may rest assured that there will be no delay on our part in making the necessary re-inspection.

  Royal Commission on the Poor Law.
  MR. BUTCHER: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he has any information as to when the Royal Commission upon Poor Law and Unemployment will present its Report.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. ASQUITH,): I understand that it is hoped that the Report will be presented by the end of the year.

  Agricultural Rating Act, 1904.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister, in view
  1422
  of the increase in the poor rate of the country, if he can state whether it is the intention of the Government to take steps having for their object the amending of the Agricultural Rates Act, 1904, and thereby relieve the burden somewhat of taxpayers in industrial centres.
  MR. ASQUITH: The Amendment of the Agricultural Rates Act is part of the general question of the relation between local and Imperial taxation which is receiving careful consideration.
  CAPTAIN MORRISON-BELL: Has not the increase of rates been greater in the country districts than in the towns?
  MR. ASQUITH: I must ask for notice of that.

  Port of London Bill.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to proceed with the Port of London Bill this session; and, if so, whether, as it was introduced under the Ten-Minutes Rule without discussion and the debate on the Second Reading was closured at the end of four hours, and as the Chairman ruled at the commencement of the proceedings that discussion of the principle of the purchase of the docks could not be permitted in Committee, he will give reasonable facilities for considering that point, as well as other principles of the Bill, before entering on the Report stage.
  MR. ASQUITH: It is the intention of the Government to proceed with the Bill this session. I see no reason for thinking that the ordinary stages which the Bill has to go through, including the Third Reading, will not give adequate facilities for the further consideration both of the principle and its details.
  MR. LOUGH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, since the Bill was explained to the House, the basis of valuation upon which the Government proposes to pay twenty-three millions sterling for the docks has been changed?
  MR. ASQUITH: No, Sir; I am not aware of that, but, if it is so, that will be a proper subject for discussion when the Bill comes on.
  MR. LOUGH: Will the right hon. Gentleman try to verify that statement before the debate takes place?
  MR. ASQUITH: That does not fall within my province. It is a matter for the President of the Board of Trade.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURasked the Prime Minister to give some statement as to the future course of business. He understood that the Committee stage of the Licensing Bill would be finished on Monday, and hoped that some opportunity would be given of considering the Government Amendments put down for the Report stage, especially as a large number of those Amendments dealt with questions that had been deferred to that stage. He also asked on what date it was proposed to take the Third Reading of the Bill, and what business would be taken between the Committee and the Report stages.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid that the last allotted day for the Committee stage of the Licensing Bill would be Monday next. He proposed to allow a substantial interval between the Committee and the Report stages. On Tuesday they would take the Report and Third Reading of the Scottish Education Bill, and the eleven o'clock rule would be suspended to complete the proceedings on that measure. On Wednesday they would take the Port of London Bill in Committee, and, in accordance with the closure Resolution adopted before the adjournment, the eleven o'clock rule would be suspended for consideration of the Resolution allocating the time for the Report stage of the Licensing Bill. On Thursday they would go on to complete the Committee stage of the Port of London Bill. They proposed to enter on the Report stage of the Licensing Bill on Friday—[OPPOSITION cries of "Oh!"]—and to continue that stage, if necessary, in the following week. He hoped to get the Third Reading stage on the ensuing Friday, 20th November.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURhoped that the right hon. Gentleman would not absolutely and irrevocably fix on the Friday. It was a matter for consideration and
  1424
  discussion, and perhaps he would keep an open mind on the point. He asked when the Government Amendments on the Report stage would appear on the Paper.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid that they would appear on Tuesday morning. The Government could not put them down until the Committee stage was finished. He hoped that the Resolution allocating the time of the Report stage would be circulated on Monday.
  LORD R. CECILasked when a discussion on the regulations under the Old-Age Pensions Act, which must take place in Parliament within twenty-one days of their issue, could be taken.
  MR. ASQUITH: I was not aware that any notice of Motion has been given on the subject.
  LORD R. CECIL: I have given one.
  MR. ASQUITH: I will consider the question.
  EARL WINTERTONasked whether a day would be given for discussing the Report of the Committee on Public Accounts.
  MR. ASQUITH: I cannot say more than I did yesterday, but I am very anxious to do so if possible.

  SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
  Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (in respect of the Criminal Appeal (Amendment) [Lords] and of the White Phosphorous Matches Prohibition Bills): Mr. Walrond; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bills): Lord Balcarres.
  Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B: the Lord Advocate; and had reinstated Mr. Solicitor-General.
  Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GUEDON further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following

  1425
  Members from Standing Committee B (in respect of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Bill): Mr. John William Taylor and Sir Edwin Cornwall; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bill): Mr. Jowett and Mr. Leif Jones.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  Clause 37:
  *MR. BOTTOMLEYmoved the omission of subsection (1) of the clause, and in doing so, reminded the Committee that so far as the club portion of the Bill was concerned, the position was that yesterday the Committee determined that the registration of every club must be annually renewed, and that every new club must also apply for registration in accordance with the provisions of Section 36, but both the renewal of registration and the granting of now registration were to be subject to certain rights of objection, which rights were governed by Clause 37, now before the Committee, and which were practically comprised in subsection (1) the omission of which he rose to move. Subsection (1) provided that any person might lodge a notice of objection to an application for registration, or for the renewal of the registration of a club, on the ground that the club was used, or was to be used, mainly as a drinking club, or on any of the grounds mentioned in Section 28 of the Licensing Act, 1902, as amended by this Act. This was a power so far-reaching and so little considered that perhaps the Minister responsible for the Bill that day might see his way considerably to modify the clause. First of all, the subsection gave the right to any person, man, woman, or child, a person from any part of the United Kingdom, to object to the registration of a new club, or to the re-registration of an old club, and he was sure that if he suggested that such a power embodied the apotheosis of the most loathsome excrescence of our judicial system, i.e., the common informer, the
  1426
  Solicitor-General would favourably consider the idea of considerably restricting the power. He noticed from the paper that there was a general consensus of opinion in all parts of the House that the power proposed to be given to any irresponsible person to interfere with the proposed formation of a club, or the re-registration of an old club, was something too extravagant to be tolerated. He pointed out that under this provision no club, however well conducted, could be sure of freedom from embarrassment every January. They might have the Licensed Victuallers' Protection Association, out of a feeling of injustice or grievance at the treatment of clubs as compared with public-houses, putting up somebody in every district every January to object to the registration or re-registration of a club. On the other hand, they might have the United Kingdom Alliance on grounds of temperance putting up somebody to object to the registration or re-registration of a club. What would be the result? Every time there was an objection it must involve a loss of a day's work to every member of the committee of a working men's club, and the attendance of the secretary and other officials before the Court for the purpose of justifying the registration. Although he was aware that by subsequent provisions an unsuccessful objector might be made liable for costs, there was no provision compelling them to make a deposit, and the result might be that the officials of a club would be called upon to give up one or two days work in attending the Court to justify the claim for registration or re-registration, and have no security that the expenses would be provided for by the objector if the objection failed. That was a very substantial objection, which he respectfully urged upon the attention of the Solicitor-General. Any party quite irresponsible, and having no interest in the district or in the club, might not only object to the club on the ground, if any, of the disqualifications contained in Section 28 of the Act of 1902, but under this Act he might object to its registration on the ground that it was intended to be a club used mainly for drinking purposes. But it was almost incredible that the draftsmen could have put such words into an Act of Parliament. How was any objector to form the opinion that a club was intended to be used as a

  1427
  drinking club? The objector could not expect to find it in the rules of the club, and was it not putting great embarrassment on every club that it should be put under the obligation every January of satisfying the Court that it neither was used, nor intended to be used, for drinking purposes? It was only the most respectable clubs which would suffer under this section. Discreditable clubs, knowing their character, would not trouble to dispute the allegations which might be well founded, but this clause gave scope for the growth of a professional class of objectors throughout the length and breadth of the land who might harass or embarrass every respectable club, and put upon it enormous expense and inconvenience, and then, before the case came on, withdraw the objection, if the objector could make satisfactory terms with the committee of the club to save them the inconvenience of attending the Court. He thought this was a most dangerous subsection. He was speaking in no hostility to the provisions generally of reasonable control over clubs. But he was suggesting to the Committee that they should not give the right to anybody in the Kingdom who perhaps had no interest in a district or a club, to allege in open Court that a club proposed to be registered or re-registered was intended to be used for drinking purposes. If they gave such a right every Mrs. Grundy, Mrs. Chant, Chadband, and Stiggins in the country would have full power to jeopardise the existence of every club. The provisions of the Act of 1902 were surely sufficient to protect the welfare and reputability of any club. If this clause was allowed to stand, the new year would be made hideous by the opposition of the enemies of clubs. He wished to impress upon the Committee, and especially upon hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House who took such a keen interest in this question from the temperance point of view, that they could not put a better weapon into the hands of the licensed victualler who considered himself aggrieved by the immunity of clubs from police supervision than by inviting him every January to harass and embarrass clubs either himself or by a nominee by objecting to their registration. The best clubs in the Kingdom—and he spoke as the representative of a constituency which contained perhaps more clubs than any other
  1428
  constituency—had in connection with them a variety of sub-clubs providing for sick benefit, athletics, and other things. How could any security be obtained on the part of the sub-clubs if every January they might be embarrassed in the way he had indicated? If there was to be the right of objection let the Government say that the person objecting should be a person in some responsible position or having some interest in the matter, and let him be liable to make a deposit in Court as evidence of his bona fides. The Government had given many evidences of their desire to accede to the suggestions of the Committee, and he hoped that in this matter they would make one more concession. He thought it was Zimmermann who said—
  "The wisest of men need never be afraid of saying he has changed his mind, which is simply another way of saying 'I am wiser to-day than I was yesterday.'"
  Now that they had the wisest of all Governments in power he asked them to give due weight to the suggestion he had made. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 18, line 22, to leave out subsection (1).—{Mr. Bottomley.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'Any' stand part of the clause."
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir S. EVANS,)said the Government had had reason to change their mind and where they had done so they offered no objection at all to make a change in the Bill. In regard to this subsection the mind of the Government was that it should be in the Bill and they remained of that mind still. The subsection was absolutely necessary. The object of having an annual renewal of registration of clubs was that there might be some opportunity of stating objections to them. That was the whole point which was properly raised by this Amendment. But he was aware that the speech of the hon. Member was based upon the provision with regard to the persons by whom and the circumstances under which objections were to be made. There were various amendments on the Paper with regard to the persons, and so on, and he thought these matters might perhaps be better discussed when the Amendments

  1429
  had been reached. He would refer incidentally to one or two of the matters mentioned by the hon. Member, but he would not attempt to forestal a discussion of the particular Amendments. The hon. Member said that "anyperson" meant any man, woman, or child. He thought the hon. Member was totally wrong in thinking that people acting under this Act of Parliament would be more unreasonable than they had been in their action under other statutes. It might be said that they would be so, but it was found that when a Bill became law nothing of the kind had been the practice. He thought that since the Licensing Act of 1828 was passed, and certainly since the Act of 1872 was passed, any person could object to the renewal of any public-house or hotel licence. There were 90,000 of those licences and there were scores of thousands of them coming up for renewal every year, and although exactly the same right of objection as that provided for in this subsection existed in regard to those licences it was found that nobody suffered from that, even although the man who did object to a renewal was not subject to the penalties which would be imposed under this Act if an objection failed.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: Is not that limited to the past conduct of the licensee with regard to the management of the house?
  SIR S. EVANSsaid an objector had the right generally to oppose the renewal of a licence on any ground he liked. What had happened in connection with the licensing Acts afforded ample evidence that the people of this country did not act unreasonably, whatever their theoretical power might be. He had no hesitation in saying that apart from the provision which the Government had made to prevent such embarassment as the hon. Member had indicated, nothing of the kind would happen with regard to the renewal of the registration of respectable clubs.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that the Motion made by the hon. Member was to omit subsection (1), but the Question put by the Chairman was that the word "any" stand part What they were discussing was whether any person ought to have
  1430
  the right to make those objections. He was not quite certain what was the attitude of the hon. Member on Clause 36, passed the previous night. He thought the hon. Member voted against it. He took a different line and voted with the Government. He spoke, therefore, as one who was not hostile to a well-reasoned and well-founded attempt, if it could be shown to be so, to secure the good conduct of a club, or the suppression of a bad club without unduly harassing clubs of a kind which none of them wished to abolish. He submitted that it was wholly unnecessary for the purpose of securing the suppression of bad clubs, or the taking of objections in cases whore they ought reasonably to be taken, to put the power into the hands of "any person." He objected to both the reasons which the hon. and learned Gentleman gave for the course the Government had taken. The hon. and learned Gentleman said, in the first place, that though it might be argued that the unreasonable actions could be taken under the provisions of this clause, in practice they would not be taken. The hon. and learned Gentleman knew that such evil consequences might follow or that they might be theoretically educed from the terms of the subsection. But only a little time ago the hon. and learned Gentleman was telling the Committee that it was necessary to guard against the action of temperance faddists.
  SIR S. EVANS: It was not I who said it.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Then it was the Prime Minister that said it—a higher authority.
  SIR S. EVANS: It was the Leader of the Opposition.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he did not know whether the phrase was first patented by his right hon. friend beside him or by the Prime Minister, but the Prime Minister speaking from the Government bench in defence of one of the Government proposals, said that it was a necessary protection against extreme temperance faddists.
  *MR. LEIF JONES: That was in inverted commas.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: What did it matter if it were in inverted commas? There were extreme temperance faddists, and the Prime Minister thought it was necessary in certain cases to protect those who were open to their attacks. He himself thought it was necessary to protect respectable bona fide clubs against the mischievous interference by those faddists in the present case. The hon. and learned Gentleman said: "Look at the facts; it is possible for any person to object to a public-house in terms of greater immunity than I have inserted in this clause." He admitted that they had greater immunity in making objections to a public-house; but he utterly denied the imputation in the speech of the hon and learned Gentleman that that power had never been used improperly, vexatiously, and in the way of persecution of people against whom no serious allegation could be made. He was not at all indisposed to support the Government in providing that there should be reasonable opportunity for responsible people to raise objections against the re-registration of an old club or the registration of a new one; but he could not go with them if they insisted in giving this power to any irresponsible meddlesome person who thought it was his business to intervene in the matter. Anything that could be done by the exercise of this power could be done if the use of the power was confined to the police. If they gave the police the right to intervene it would enable any person who thought he was aggrieved to lay his case before the police, and if the police saw any good grounds for the objection they could take action. That would provide greater safeguards against anything like a scandalously frivolous objection, and it would not expose bona fide clubs, with committees of working men, engaged all day, and very likely with no secretary or competent person to represent them in Court, to being haled and harried before the Justices without any good cause at all. He submitted that this matter was germane to the Amendment to leave out the word "any."
  SIR S. EVANS: A superintendent of police would be included in "any person."
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsubmitted that his argument was germane
  1432
  to the question put from the Chair. He suggested to the hon. and learned Gentleman that he would facilitate business by at once expressing the intentions of the Government.
  *SIR FRANCIS CHANNINGsaid he wished to call the attention of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House to the fact that this subsection in the Bill was identical with the clause passed by the Conservative Ministry in the 28th Section of the Licensing Act of 1902, which embodied all the conditions the violation of which led to the extinction of a club, and the withdrawal from registration. After the decision of the Committee last night to which the party opposite assented, it seemed to him that it would be ludicrous for them to go back on the Act of 1902, which gave the same jurisdiction as in this clause, and the same right to any single person whatever to make a complaint in writing, and to set in motion the machinery for striking a club off the register. He submitted that on the broad ground of common sense, and on the ground of following the precedent of 1902, it would be absurd to adopt now any other procedure. It should be remembered that all those Amendments which now stood on the Paper had been put down under the supposition that the Government were proceeding to hand over the clubs to the licensing justices, whose procedure was different and who would not take evidence on oath. But the Amendments which the Government had since accepted, insuring a judicial procedure on oath with costs against an unreasonable complainant, doubly covered the case of all the objections raised, and it would be the height of unwisdom to go back on the course adopted in 1902. He hoped the Government would remain firm to their own Bill.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not wish to add anything in the main question to what had been said by his right hon. friend, but he hoped the Committee would not be misled by this reference to the Act of 1902. The hon. Member opposite had spoken as if they on that side of the House were more or fess bound by what he called the 1902 precedent. The Act of 1902 was no

  1433
  precedent at all. In the first place that Act did not deal with the prospective action of clubs, or as if anybody would come forward and say, "I think this is going to be the future action of the club, and I do not think you ought to allow it to start." If they were going to give such increased powers to the objector they ought to consider more carefully who the objector was to be. The Government had laid it down in the succeeding clauses that there was to be an annual revision of the registration. The whole case was to be brought up every year and objectors were to be invited. That really made a great difference. If it did not make a difference why did the Government fight over it last night? If they did not think it would invite criticism of the club and bring it into focus and throw an annual responsibility on the world at large to deal with these clubs, why did they spend the whole of the previous night in fighting over the question? The Government believed that by making the registration annual they were adding to the efficiency of the machinery by which revision of clubs was to be carried on. They might be right, and he rather thought they were right, but whether it was right or wrong it was certainly more stringent, and when they were making such powers more stringent and making it easier for members of the public to object, he really thought they were perfectly free to argue, as no doubt his hon. friends would argue, that, as they encouraged objections, they ought to take every precaution that the objections should not be frivolous.
  *SIR J. DICKSON-POYNDERdid not think that any serious objection could be taken to the proposal of the Government, as proper protection had been provided. The object they had in view was to get at the club mainly used as a drinking club, because there was no doubt that correspondingly as they decreased licensed houses they would have to allow outlets in some other direction for drinking facilities to be granted. Therefore he thought it was very important now that they were drawing this Act of Parliament that it should be laid down specifically in some form of test what a drinking club really was. There were a great many clubs that were most respectably conducted in different parts of the country, but he
  1434
  thought all would agree that the amount of alcohol consumed in those clubs was to a great extent to be deprecated. If that was the case under the existing law, much more would it be so under the operation of the new law, because they were going greatly to accelerate the reduction of licensed houses, and they would therefore equally accelerate the tendency towards creating some other establishments where drinking facilities must be granted. It would unfortunately be out of order for him to go into detail in regard to any suggestion of a test. There were subsequent Amendments on the Paper which he was afraid would not be reached that evening, but might he point out that these words must lead to great difficulty in the exercise of the discretion of the magistrates, and would certainly lead to a great lack of uniformity in their interpretation throughout the country. He would like to say something more definite as to the test to guide magistrates in the future, when they were to grant a registration for a bona fide social club, or for something which might develop into nothing more than a drinking club. He thought, however, some more guidance should be given. A test might be imposed in the direction of refusing the registration of a club which, upon a scrutiny of its books, was shown to be deriving more than half of its revenue from the profits on alcohol. That comparison would be fair, and could be easily made.
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member, instead of discussing the Question before the Committee was discussing an Amendment of his own.
  SIR J. DICKSON-POYNDERsaid he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, although he was afraid they would not have an opportunity of discussing the Amendment referred to, because it would never be reached. He only wished to say that he generally agreed with this clause, but he would like to add something of a more definite character in the nature of a direct test, so that the magistrates in the future could draw the line between social clubs and drinking clubs.
  MR. LAMBTONwas understood to support the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Hackney. The clause did not in the

  1435
  least cover the case of frivolous objections, because such objections might be made and withdrawn at the last moment, and the persons making them would escape the payment of the costs. Persons might libel any club and escape without any penalty, so long as they withdrew their complaint at the last moment. It was hard that people should be able to make these attacks upon a club with impunity, and some words were needed to meet the case of frivolous objections.
  MR. SEAVERNS, Club was understood to say that the and Institute Union had declared in favour of a duly authorised public officer being substituted, for "any person" as the initiator of complaints. He was aware that the police were most reasonably objected to as inspectors by clubs, but the question of lodging complaints stood in a different category. He submitted that it would cast great expense upon clubs if any person who liked was able to go and lodge complaints, and it appeared to him that it should be some authorised person, or that the complaint should be lodged at least by a number of people who lived in the neighbourhood and who felt themselves prejudiced by any noise or disturbance which the club created. He hoped that the Government would look with a favourable eye on the suggestion that the words "any person" be eliminated and some other responsible authority put in.
  MR. RAWLINSONwished to appeal to the Government not upon a technical point but upon one which he endeavoured to put yesterday. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General discussing the whole subsection missed out what he would venture to suggest was the most important part of the clause. For the first time they were giving power to anybody who did not want the renewal of a licence of a club to object on the ground that it was used "mainly as a drinking club." He wanted to know what that meant. It might mean one of two things. Some people looked upon this as the keystone of the sincerity of the whole Bill. Was it meant to stop drunkenness and the temptation to it among the body politic, or did it pick upon an unpopular class, the brewers, and deal with them? It all turned upon the definition given
  1436
  to this expression, "used mainly as a drinking club." He would give a description of a club which he had no doubt was a thoroughly well conducted one. It was affiliated with 1,000 other clubs in London and the provinces, so that a member could get any refreshment he desired elsewhere when he was not in his own club. The rules were well drawn up and the balance sheet was excellently kept. From the latter he saw that in the course of six months between £1,800 and £1,900 had been expended in liquors, wines, and spirits. Those were sold at a profit—a perfectly proper profit of 30 or 40 per cent.—amounting to about £2,000 a year. The money went very largely in the provision of entertainments, which were obviously of a high-class character, involving considerable payments to the artistes who attended on Sundays and other days. It was perfectly well conducted, but the whole of the profits came from the sale of intoxicating liquors. [An HON. MEMBER: How many members?] The amount which came from subscriptions was considerable—some £400 a year. [An HON. MEMBER: What is the subscription?] It would take a little time to work out. The subscription was 1s. a month, and for that 1s. amongst other things there was a convalescent home and a benevolent fund, which were dealt with separately. He was only taking this club as an example of a perfectly well conducted club. It happened to be political, but there was nothing in that, because the whole expenditure on politics came to under £15 a year, so he was not biassed by the political aspect, and cared not whether it was Conservative or Liberal: what he wanted to know was whether or not the Government by that expression "used mainly as a drinking club" meant in any way to hit that class of club. If they did mean to hit it they were embarking upon a less popular entertainment than trying to injure an unpopular class called brewers. If they were doing that they were taking their courage in both hands, and embarking upon a crusade which they would find a very unpopular one, against excellent clubs of this kind which were in direct competition with every public-house in their neighbourhood. The members of these clubs went for country walks, and as they were affiliated to 1,000 other clubs, it would not be

  1437
  very long before they came to another club which they could enter. In his judgment the real interpretation of these words would form the keystone of the Bill. Did the Government mean to take the courageous line that might be there indicated of taking clusb such as he had referred to, either for purposes of revenue or for purposes of being objected to on the same ground, or was this merely a ^vindictive term which was to be left to the magistrates to determine? He attached great importance to the point. It was not a technical point, but one which went to the heart of the Bill. Let them not leave these words for the justices to determine. Were they to include merely the shebeens, or did they include every honest club the bulk of whose revenue came from the sale of intoxicants? Upon the answer to that question would largely depend how he registered his vote.
  MR. MARKHAMsaid he approached this question from the point of view of one who believed that in many cases clubs were only drinking shops, and that in the case of such clubs it was desirable to impose every possible restriction. There was no doubt that the Act of 1902 provided that where a club that had been registered was used, or was going to be used, mainly as a drinking club, a Court of Summary Jurisdiction might, if it thought fit, make an order striking it off the register. But, so far as a club being used solely or mainly as a drinking club was concerned, he agreed with the hon. and learned Member opposite that the whole of this clause depended very largely upon what constituted a drinking club. He would say that a licensed house closed under the Act, for which compensation was paid, and immediately opened on the following day as a club tied to the same brewers who had received compensation for the closing of the house, could only be described as a club mainly used as a drinking club. That was a case which had come to his notice. No brewer would start a club except for the sole purpose of drink being consumed. Any person could go to the Court and say he knew of his own knowledge that the people who ran a particular club ran it as a drinking shop, and that would be
  1438
  evidence for the magistrate to take into consideration' when deciding whether a licence was to be granted or not. He had no hesitation in saying that this clause as it stood was necessary. Whether it was necessary to substitute "ratepayer" or some other word for "person," he knew not. But he had no hope that the Government were going to stick to the Bill, because he had heard that they were going further to weaken it in the case of these drinking clubs. He trusted that the Committee would insist on these regulations, which were essential to prevent people, as they were at present, being continually inconvenienced and disturbed at all hours of the day and night, on Sundays as well as other days, by the people who used these unlicensed grog shops.
  MR. HUNTsaid he had seen a deputation from the largest club in his constituency, and they were so frightened of the effect of the Bill that they had not only stopped building very necessary extra room, but they insisted on his going down to the club and talking about it to them, although, being miners, they were almost all on the other side in politics. However, it had done him no harm. They were disposed to object to a single person being able to object to a club, and pointed out that any member who was expelled might take the first opportunity of revenge by complaining to the magistrates and endeavouring to get [the club struck off. They suggested that there should be instead some well recognised authority to object to the club. He thought it would be very difficult to settle what was a drinking club and what was not.
  MR. RIDSDALEsaid it had been suggested by speakers on the Liberal benches that the Government were going to weaken the clause. Speaking from the point of view of one who was not a teetotaller, he regarded the strengthening of this clause for this class of club as absolutely necessary. He had given his support to the Bill at first with reluctance but with rather greater pleasure as it proceeded, owing to the way in which the Government were handling it. If, however, he found at this late stage there was going to be any weakening in

  1439
  regard to this clause he should regret fully have to vote against it. With regard to the suggestion that the words "police man or ratepayer" should be substituted for "any person" as at present in the Bill, he trusted that the Government would accept no such Amendment. They wished to keep the information as general and as wide as possible, and if there was one class of person more than another—
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid it was very inconvenient to discuss the question in detail on this Amendment. The hon. Member was again going into the question of the "person."
  MR. RIDSDALEsaid he would entirely defer to the ruling of the Chair. There was one point, however, which had been left out of consideration altogether, and which had reference to wives of club members. He thought they ought to be considered in the subsection, and that full power should be given to the wife of any member of a club to lodge information that her husband went to his club and got drunk. He thought it highly desirable that this power should be retained in the subsection.
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid this arose under the word "person," which should be discussed on a later Amendment.
  MR. RIDSDALEsaid he would merely confine himself, in conclusion, to a general appeal to the Government not in any way to weaken this subsection, but as far as possible strengthen it.
  *MR. G. D. FABERsaid the hon. Member for the Mansfield division had said he had reason to believe that there was to be some weakening by the Government of this clause of the Bill. That was news to him and his friends, and he believed also to a great many Members on the Government side. He was sure that the hon. Member for Appleby, who was one of the great protagonists of the Bill, would have a great deal to say if that were the case. The hon. Baronet the Member for the Chippenham division of Wiltshire had put his thumb on the central difficulty experienced by the Government, because
  1440
  the inevitable tendency of the Bill must be to drive men from the public-houses to the clubs. What did the Government mean when they said "drinking clubs"? Was that expression merely intended for the shop-window and as an advertisement, and to delude temperance men throughout the country and enable them to go away—honestly, though mistakenly, go away, and say that the Government Bill would suppress drinking clubs? The fact was that what the Government were really doing was merely shifting the difficulty and onus on to the Court to decide, because somebody would have to determine the meaning of the phrase "drinking clubs" at some time or other. It might mean something or nothing, according to the view the Court took. He would be extremely curious to hear what the Government really meant by the phrase. The provisions of the Act of 1902 dealing with clubs had been referred to, but the phrase used there was nothing like so vague as that in the present Bill. It was "frequent drunkenness on the club premises." That was a definite issue upon which any mind, judicial or otherwise, could come to a conclusion. To define the words in the present Bill required supernatural ability, for not only had the interpreter an extraordinarily vague phrase to deal with, but he had to be prophetic as well, having to decide whether the club "is used or is to be used" merely as a drinking club. It must be clear to anybody who really wished to grapple with the evil that a different form of expression must be put into the Bill. The question under the Act of 1902 was once and for all, whether the club was respectable or not; but in the present Bill there would be and was intended to be a possibility of objection every year; The Act of 1902 worked well, because although any person could make a complaint, nothing need be done "unless the Court grants a summons on the complaint." Under this Bill, however, the Court could not stop objections. The question of costs was an important one in this connection. They would be almost certainly incurred, because notice of objection could be lodged by any person against any club. If the committee of the club

  1441
  were wise they would at once take steps to meet the objection, and would probably consult a professional adviser. After thus running up a considerable bill, they might find that at the last moment the objection was withdrawn. Would there be power to deal with the question of costs that had already been incurred if the objections were withdrawn before the case went before a Court of Summary Jurisdiction or the Stipendiary?
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid this did not arise on the subsection.
  *MR. G. D. FABERsaid he would leave the matter there. If the point was a material one, he was sure that the Solicitor-General would give them the benefit of his counsel when the proper Amendment was reached.
  *MR. REEShoped that the advice given by his hon. friend the Member for Brighton in regard to clubs, which had hitherto been the last retreat of distressed manhood, would not be adopted by the Committee, lest clubs in future became a great cause of estrangement between husband and wife. He thought the words of the subsection were very wide, and there was nothing in it to make it more difficult for a frivolous or malicious person to make use of it for purposes for which it was not intended. It would not be in order now to consider whether a police officer would be the better person to object, or whether that privilege should be left to that wretched man the ratepayer. The subsection was certainly very wide indeed, and if it was to effect the object in view, it would undoubtedly lay clubs open to very unadvisable interference. If they considered the different way in which the subsection would operate in London compared with small towns in the country, the would see how absurd it would be in the case of political clubs like the "Carlton" or the "Reform," or non-political clubs like "The Travellers" and "Brooks's" that a person should be able to come forward and make objections in the manner contemplated. They were clubs with
  1442
  committees, out of which a front bench on either side could be easily formed. Yet under this section any person might come forward—
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member was discussing a detail outside his ruling. It was advisable that he should not discuss that point until they had the Amendment before them.
  *MR. REESsaid it was due to his want of ability to keep within the ruling, not that he desired to transgress it. He would be in order, he presumed, in discussing the question of drinking clubs. He thought it was impossible to give a definition of a drinking club which would meet every case. A drinking club, if they took the words in their actual sense, meant a club where anyone drank. Therefore the question was, how did they drink? The hon. Baronet the Member for North-West Wilts had suggested as a definition "where more than half the revenue is derived from the sale of intoxicating liquors." But people who frequented clubs were not such children as to allow themselves to be checked by a provision like that. How easy it would be for them to make the subscriptions high, and the price of drink low, so that they could hide the profits with the greatest possible ease. Nor did he think it was possible to say to what extent drinking in a club was to prevail in order to constitute it as a "drinking club." He remembered a case—it was not in this country—where the president of a club of Europeans in India gave advice to a young magistrate newly arrived in the country. He said: "If you wish to get on and keep your health in India do not drink too much by day or too little by night." A statement of that kind might be got hold of by a certain class of person, who would say: "That is a man who favours drink." But he was a man of the most blameless life and conversation and greatly respected, and looking back from the atmosphere by which he was now surrounded, he could think of nothing whatever against that man except that he was the son of a Peer. He remembered also the case of a candidate who was urged to vote for total prohibition. He said modestly: "It would ill become me to vote for total

  1443
  prohibition, because I fall short of that standard by a glass of whisky or a pint of wine a day." One of his hearers, an estimable man for whom he had the greatest respect, said: "This candidate actually admits he drinks a glass, or half a bottle too much every day." From his own point of view that gentleman was perfectly consistent. He thought one glass was a glass too much, and half a bottle half a bottle too much, and he was entitled to go away and say what he did. He (Mr. Rees) happened to be the candidate. These cases illustrated extremely well the difficulty of defining "drinking clubs." In both these cases there was not an hon. Member who would not have had the greatest respect for these two gentlemen, yet a temperance extremist would put one down as a profligate and drinker, and a moderate drinker would put down the other man as a fanatic. It was impossible to make any definition of a drinking club which would satisfy the requirements of both sections. He hoped the Government would not screw the section up into something which would give great opportunities to the ill-disposed and malicious and the ultra-political to come forward and bring charges against institutions which could not properly be sustained. Take the case of small country towns. There was in a small town perhaps a Conservative, and perhaps not a Liberal club. The Liberals thought they would have a club, and someone came forward and said: "That Liberal club is likely to be used mainly as a drinking club." The exact contrary case also might of course occur. A section like this made it absolutely easy for anyone to say that. In small places where party feeling ran high it was by no means unlikely that cases like that might actually occur. The Solicitor-General had said they were not to suppose that everybody would act outrageously, because the section gave them the opportunity. He (Mr. Rees) did not suppose that, but he knew there were innumerable people about who, when they were obsessed with one idea would go to lengths which would surprise all their friends and acquaintances. He should not be in the least surprised to see the section made use of in the manner which he
  1444
  suggested, and which he was sure the Government did not desire.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY, in view of the Chairman's ruling, which had tied the hands of the Committee, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment, If they could consider what class of objectors would be qualified to exercise these powers they would probably be doing better work.
  Leave to withdraw refused.
  MR. YOUNGERsaid he wanted to say a word on the very important point raised by the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge, and emphasised by the hon. Member for Montgomery, in reference to clubs described in this subsection as clubs used mainly as drinking clubs. He had had since the Bill was introduced the half yearly report of a very large work-men's club, most respectably conducted in every way, and he understood with a very large membership. To anyone reading them casually the figures would imply that it was mainly used as a drinking club, while as a matter of fact, though drink was largely consumed, there was nothing to be said against it. The total cash receipts for six months from 1st July last year to 31st December was £3,391. Of that total, £3,157 was drawn for liquor at the bar, £22 from billiards and £112 from subscriptions. In the payments on the other side of the account only £60 was paid for food, and £1,817 for liquor. The liquor account showed a profit of £1,091 for the half year which was, of course, used in various ways—for management, excursions, and so-forth. On the face of it he should say anyone seeing these figures would say: "This club surely is mainly used for drinking." He did not suppose the Government proposed to touch a club of that sort, but it appeared to him it would certainly touch it if the section stood in this vague way.
  MR. LUPTONrose in his place, and claimed to move "That the question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
  EARL WINTERTONsaid he wished to refer to one question put by his hon. friend the Member for Cambridge. It really brought them to grips with the whole club question. It was simply this: What was, not the legal meaning of the words "mainly used as a drinking club," but the meaning attached to them by the Government? He ventured to think that was the crux of the whole question with regard to the club clauses. He wished to make one comment on the action already taken by the Government. Yesterday the Solicitor-General or the Under-Secretary for the Home Department said it was not desirable to tie themselves to a meaning that a club used mainly as a drinking club was one which in the words of the Amendment then moved "derived half of its profits from the sale of intoxicating liquor." He thought they ought before they proceeded to a division to hear from the Government what meaning they attached to the words "mainly used as a drinking club." There was a real danger of objection being raised to the registration of a club merely from political prejudice so long as they had this loose definition in the Bill. It would be open to any person, on political grounds, to subject a respectable club to all sorts of annoyance, inconvenience, and expense. He appealed to the Government to acquaint the Committee with the meaning they attached to the words "mainly used as a drinking club."
  SIR S. EVANSsaid he was sure the Committee would absolve him from any want of readiness, but he hoped the noble Lord would not ask him to reply on it now. He would not be in order in doing so. The point really upon the omission of the subsection was whether or not there should be the possibility of making the objection. As to the persons who might make it, that had been excluded by the Chairman's ruling, and as to the grounds on which it might be made, when they came to that he would be ready to express his opinion for what it was worth.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not dissent from the spirit which animated the hon. and learned Gentleman at all, but he would recognise that it was just
  1446
  possible that they might not reach the provision he had referred to. Of all the points raised in connection with clubs, undoubtedly this phrase—"mainly used as a drinking club"—was the most important. The illustrations which had been given by the hon. Members for Cambridge and Ayr Burghs were quite sufficient to show what extraordinary difficulties lurked behind that phrase, and though he himself would be extremely glad to go to a division, they had better deal with it now, so vital did he regard it as being.
  VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid he did not attach any importance to the persons who objected, but he did object to the procedure. It seemed to him that it was totally inapplicable to clubs, for this reason. In the past they all knew those who were sometimes described as temperance fanatics or otherwise as conscientious objectors objected to public-houses on general grounds, and proceeded against individual public-houses on general prohibition grounds. Clubs would be exposed to a double fire under this procedure, as was shown by the hon. Member for Rhondda Valley the other day when he described all the clubs in his district as mere drinking dens. It was quite obvious that in that district those who approved of prohibition would object on general grounds to all clubs, quite regardless of the character of the individual club. Clubs were the trade rivals of public-houses, and, consequently, they would be exposed not only to the conscientious attacks of the prohibitionists, but also to the attacks of those who were their interested trade rivals. It was because the clubs which had existed for years among the richer classes had now spread to the poorer classes that they were exposed to all this hostility, and they deserved some protection under this clause. He would welcome any proposal from the Government which would make clubs more secure than they would be if the desires of some hon. Members opposite were placed upon the Statute-book.
  *MR. RENWICKsaid the fact that the Solicitor-General was not prepared to define what was

  1447
  meant by the phrase "used mainly as a drinking club" showed that he was in as great a difficulty as they were. He attached very great importance to that definition because he was going North for the purpose of opening a new club.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not in order because he is merely repeating what a great many other hon. Members have said. The Motion is to leave out the first subsection. The question has been asked what meaning the Government attach to certain words and the Solicitor-General has promised to reply at a later stage. I do not think we can go on repeating these arguments.
  MR. RENWICKsaid he attached the greatest importance to those particular words "used, mainly as a drinking club" and he failed, to see how he could argue the point without referring to them. Other hon. Members had spoken very fully upon them and he asked the Chairman to reconsider his ruling.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: The repetition of these arguments has become tedious and I must have regard, to that fact. I do not think the hon. Member should go on with that line of argument.
  MR. RENWICKsaid that under those circumstances he would refrain from making a speech at all.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINthought it would be most convenient to take the division now and proceed later on to discuss this important question. He had hoped that, the Solicitor-General would have given them an answer which would have relieved them of the necessity of taking a division.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid it would not be in order for him to do so.
  *MR. H. H. MARKSsaid the discussion had. made it abundantly clear that a very strong opinion was held, in various quarters of the House that it was desirable that something should be done to reform the management of a certain class of clubs. He shared that view and he should, share it more cordially if the reform included cricket,
  1448
  football, chess and draught clubs, with which many hon. Members were familiar. If it was necessary to introduce regulations for the better management of clubs, what was the proper way to bring it about? Surely it was by importing into this Bill direct, distinct, and definite instructions, and that was precisely what the clause under discussion did not do. Apparently the authors of the Bill were not desirous of incurring the ill-will of the clubs or those concerned, and there fore they had. devolved, upon other shoulders the painful duty of applying to clubs vexatious prosecutions and petty annoyances which they hoped in the long run would result in their absolute destruction, or at any rate inflict upon them very grave injury and inconvenience. Upon whom was it proposed to devolve this duty? It was to devolve upon anyone, regardless of age, sex, status or residence—
  *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not confining himself to my ruling.
  *MR. H. H. MARKSsaid that under the general provisions of this clause it would be competent for anyone to go from one end of the country to the other filing objections to clubs. Men of straw might do this—
  *THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member persists in discussing that point I shall have to consider the word "person" settled on this Amendment.
  *MR. H. H. MARKSsaid the clause as it stood would inevitably have the effect of encouraging complaints against clubs. Those complaints, however numerous or trivial, no matter how inspired or from whom they came, would have to be considered by the Court to which they were, made. That would involve a steadily recurring, annual expense. This clause would render it possible for trade and political rivals and others animated by "merely spiteful motives to put a heavy annual burden, upon clubs throughout the country. It might be desirable and he thought it was desirable to curtail the number of clubs; and it might also be desirable to improve the management of many clubs, but surely

  1449
  it could not be desirable to put into the hands of all members of the community the power to persecute, harass, annoy, and put to unnecessary expense the members of clubs from spiteful motives which the Court would have no power whatever to check. Under ordinary circumstances, when a man was brought before a Court of law, if there was any motive shown it was taken into consideration; but under the operation of this clause, however, unworthy, mischievous, or spiteful the motive of a plaintiff might be, the Court had no power to take cognisance of any one of those considerations, it was bound to entertain the complaint and thus play into the hands of the spiteful interloper. On those grounds he thought the Motion to exclude this clause should be carried by the Committee.
  MR. CAVEsaid he wished to explain what their opposition to the subsection meant. It did not mean that they were opposed to the reasonable regulation of clubs or to annual registration. The reason he was going to vote against the subsection was that it contained more than one element he objected to. It gave the power to "any person" to object. It authorised an objection on the ground that a club "was to be used" as a drinking club. It laid down no rule for ascertaining what a drinking club was. These and other provisions were so vague and likely to be so oppressive to clubs that he could not support the subsection.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 262; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 329.)

  AYES.

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Agnew, George William

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Armitage, R.

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Harwood, George

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cox, Harold

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Crooks, William

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Crossley, William J.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Beale, W. P.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hodge, John

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Hooper, A. G.

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Erskine, David C.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Hudson, Walter

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Brace, William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Jackson, R. S.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Brigg, John

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Bright, J. A.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Brunner, Rt Hn Sir J. T. (Cheshire

  Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Glover, Thomas

  Kelley, George D.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Cameron, Robert

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Grant, Corrie

  Lamont, Norman

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Gulland, John W.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Clough, William

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Clynes, J. R.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Radford, G. H.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Summerbell, T.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Rees, J. D.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Macdonald, J. B. (Leicester)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Richardson, A.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Roberts, Charles II. (Lincoln)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Maddison, Frederick

  Robinson, S.

  Toulmin, George

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Verney, F. W.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Walsh, Stephen

  Massie, J.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Walters, John Tudor

  Menzies, Walter

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Walton, Joseph

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Wardle, George J.

  Middlebrook, William

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Mond, A.

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Sears, J. E.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Seaverns, J. H.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kincard.

  Seddon, J.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Myer, Horatio

  Shackleton, David James

  Whittaker, Rt Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Napier, T. B.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Nicholls, George

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Williamson, A.

  O'Grady, J.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Perks, Sir Robert William

  Snowden, P.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Joseph Pease and Master of

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Elibank.

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F.

  Cross, Alexander

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Ashley, W. W.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Dunean, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Bertram, Julius

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Oddy, John James

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Percy, Earl

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Ratclffe, Major R. F.

  Cave, George

  Hill, Sir Clement

  Renton, Leslie

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hogan, Michael

  Renwick, George

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Hunt, Rowland

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Kerry, Earl of

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Starkey, John R.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  1452

  1453

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Whitbread, Howard

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Valentia, Viscount

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Bottomley and Earl Winterton.

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Young, Samuel

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Younger, George

  SIR HENRY KIMBERmoved an Amendment providing that instead of "any person" having power to lodge an objection to the registration or the renewal of the registration of a club, only a "duly authorised police officer" should have the power to do so. He objected to the words "any person" in the subsection, because it would not matter whence he came or whither he was going. The person might not be resident in these islands at all; he might be from the Sandwich Islands or Timbuctoo. The common informer would be established, a system of espionage would be introduced into club life, and instead of peace and good-will being promoted among different classes of the community a fresh means of agitation and conflict would be provided by this subsection. The motives of an objector might be benevolent or spiteful, but, whatever they might be, it would not be possible to challenge his status. He was not obliged to state the grounds on which he proceeded; he was to be entitled on his mere ipse dixit to arraign a club and bring it before a tribunal to prove its innocence. According to the good old English principle a man was assumed to be innocent until he was proved to be guilty, but that was to be reversed in the case of clubs. He was not wedded to the words of amendment if better ones could be suggested. If it was thought desirable to insert the words "chief constable" instead of those he proposed, he would be very pleased to agree to the alteration. Under the clause as it stood a common informer might be paid by an association or section of the community to find out how clubs were conducted in order to bring about their extermination.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 18, line 32, to leave out the word 'person,' and insert the words 'duly authorised police officer."—(Sir Henry Kimber.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'person' stand part of the clause."
  SIR S. EVANSsaid he understood the hon. Member to argue that it was inadvisable to allow "any person" to lodge objections to the registration or the renewal of the registration of clubs. He might say at once in order to relieve the feelings of hon. Members that the Government thought they were bound to adhere to the word "person." To omit that word for the introduction of a more limited term would, in their opinion, weaken the provisions of the club portion of the Bill. From the commencement, in dealing with the criticisms which had been levelled against them by the Opposition, they on that side of the House had said that they would accept help offered in improving the club clauses, if the suggestions would have the effect of either maintaining the rights and privileges of bona fide clubs, or tending to put down clubs which were called drinking clubs. In the discussion on the previous Amendment he stated that since 1872 there had been a provision entitling any person in any part of the country to object to the renewal of any public-house or hotel licence. As he had already stated, although there were 90,000 licensed houses it had been found that nobody had suffered from the existence of the unlimited power to object to renewals. The general policy of the law was not to restrict the right of informing to particular persons when they were dealing with something which was an infringement of the law. While that was the general policy of the law, he did not say that there were not special Acts which said that in regard to certain matters the information must be laid by particular persons. They had not only the experience of more than a generation in regard to the unlimited power of objection to the renewal of licences conferred by the 1872 Act, but they had also the experience of the legislation of the late Government. Here the objection could only be made by any person once a year upon an application for renewal of registration, or an application for registration for the first time; but under the 28th

  1455
  Section of the Act of 1902 any person, at any time and on any ground of objection, might apply to have the club struck off the register. If it was right to allow any person to do that, it would not be wrong to give any person the right proposed under this section. The hon. Member for York had said that under the section of the Act of 1902 they must go to a magistrate for a summons. Everybody knew that the issue of a summons was purely a ministerial act, and that if anybody laid an information no magistrate would refuse a summons. He was asked the meaning of the words "used or is to be used" as a ground which could be alleged by an objector against the registration or renewal of the registration of a club. He was asked to deal with two matters. First of all, to say what they meant by words "used or intended to be used." In the judgment of the Government the words "intended to be used," although they looked to the future, might be found to be very useful words when they came to operate under this Act. It was said that they did not know how the premises were going to be used. There were various tests of that. Supposing a licence or licences had been reduced or extinguished in a certain street in a certain town; supposing it was perfectly well known who the persons were who usually sat and were interested in these licensed premises; assuming that upon the extinction of those licensed premises they found that the very persons interested in them were the persons who were interested in the club about to be opened: was that not a most pertinent matter for the justices to take into consideration in deciding whether or not they would allow the club to be registered as a bona fide club? Again, supposing it was well known that the committee of the proposed club—he was not going to condemn brewers, but was assuming that a public-house had been extinguished—had for its chairman the agent of the brewer, did anybody contend that in that case it was not right for the justices who had to deal with the matter, and who had to act judicially in a Court, to take that fact into consideration? Take another illustration. The Court
  1456
  had a right to see whether or not the accommodation in the club was such as would indicate that it was going to be used as a bona fide club, or whether the accommodation was simply that which they found in an illegitimate drinking club. Supposing the most important room on the premises was fitted up as a bar and that there were no conveniences elsewhere for any of the other purposes of a genuine bona fide club—that might be a matter for the justices to take properly into consideration before all owing the registration of the club. Was it not a test of whether a club was to be used as a mere drinking club to see what provision there was by way of rules for accommodation on the premises for the purposes of recreation, social companionship, reading, legitimate games, and so forth? If there were no such accommodation on the premises, and if there were no provision for such accommodation in the rules, the justices might be amply justified in saying, taking all these things into consideration, that the club was not really going to be a bona fide club, but merely a drinking club.
  SIR HENRY KIMBERsaid that that kind of argument did not touch the Amendment which he had moved.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid he could see what the hon. Baronet meant, but he was not directing the whole of his speech to his Amendment. He had given, he hoped, a complete answer to the hon. Baronet's Amendment from the experience they had had, from the precedents they had in previous legislation, and from the lessons of the past itself. He would now deal with what was meant by the words "to be used mainly as a drinking club."
  SIR HENRY KIMBERasked how that applied to the objection made by any particular person.
  *THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid it was perfectly true that the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech did not now apply to the hon. Baronet's particular Amendment, but for the general convenience and with the consent of the

  1457
  Committee the hon. and learned Gentleman was addressing himself to the general question raised by the subsection. But hon. Members would understand that they were not to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman's example.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he did not quite appreciate the Deputy-Chairman's last statement. Was he to understand that it would not be competent for any other Member of the Committee to argue as to the vague character of the subsection?
  SIR S. EVANSsaid he had ventured to suggest tentatively in a previous speech that it would be in order for him to discuss the objections raised to the wide power given by the subsection.
  MR. LAMBTONasked if under the Chairman's ruling they would or would not have, a right of reply to the Solicitor-General.
  *THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid he thought his ruling was very clear. The Solicitor-General was making some observations with regard to a promise he made on a previous Amendment; and, as he understood, it was for the convenience of the Committee that the Solicitor-General should do so. The question whether other Members had any right to open up the whole subject raised by the subsection would be determined when they began to make their remarks.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that what took place ton a previous occasion was that not merely the Solicitor-General but other Members in all parts of the House were requested by the Chairman to defer their observations on the general question until they reached the Amendments. As he understood, it was with the consent of the Chairman that the Solicitor-General had undertaken to deal with these general matters on this Amendment, but he also understood that other Members of the Committee would have a right of reply.
  *THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid it could not be expected of him to give a
  1458
  definite ruling on a matter which had not yet come before him.
  SIR S. EVANSobserved that although right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite appeared to be greatly puzzled about the meaning of the phrase "is to be used mainly as a drinking club" there was no Amendment on the Paper to omit those words. They would be in their right to do so yet, of course, but it was rather curious after the plethora of Amendments they had had on this Bill and many against this clause, that if there had been any difficulty with regard to the meaning of those words, they should not have had some Amendment put down with regard to them. They must, in dealing with matters in the ordinary course of things, use language which sometimes might be said to be vague, looking at the language theoretically, but which in practice raised no difficulty at all. He thought that nobody sitting as a justice on a bench would have much difficulty in saying that a particular club was to be used mainly as a drinking club. Those words were not capable of legal definition, and he was not going to attempt to define them. He did not think that any definition which could be given would be absolutely accurate and full. With regard to the use of the terms that had been said to be vague, in ordinary life everybody knew what the words meant. Let him use an illustration, for he was not going to define what they meant. Supposing it was found that there was no accommodation in the premises for recreative purposes or social purposes but that a great deal of drink was sold there, would anybody doubt that the premises were used mainly as a drinking club? Under the Act of 1902 one of the grounds for striking a club off the register was that it was not conducted "in good faith as a club." Could anybody suggest that there was more difficulty in applying in the ordinary course of things a common-sense meaning to the words "merely used as a drinking club," than there would be in applying such a meaning to the words "in good faith as a club"? Another phrase was "habitually used," for certain purposes, and another "frequent drunkenness."

  1459
  Everybody knew that "frequent drunken ness" was a vague phrase, but they were not using it on that occasion. If they had been he would have been asked, he supposed, to define the word "frequent." [An HON. MEMBER: But the club is not in existence.] When they were discussing the meaning of the words what did it matter whether the club was in existence or was coming into existence? He had dealt with the words "to be used," but taking the Irish Act the words were used having regard to the "character of the Chair man." Suppose a Solicitor-General was asked to define what was the meaning "of the character of the chairman" and what was the character which would prevent the registration of the club—
  SIR E. CARSON: Every Irishman has a good character.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid in that case he could not understand why his right hon. and learned friend put the words into the Act.
  MR. RAWLINSONasked if the hon. and learned Gentleman would answer his question. It was not about a legal point. Did the Bill intend to strike at a bona fide club well conducted, with £2,000 a year income from drink, and subscribers of between £200 and £300 a year?
  SIR S. EVANSsaid he could not take the case of any club without all the figures and circumstances, but taking the illustration of the hon. and learned Gentleman as he had given it, he would say, they did not mean to hit a club of that kind, and he might point out that they opposed an Amendment the night before which said that a club should not be registered as a bona fide one if it made half its income from the sale of liquor. The question was what was the raison d'etre of a club. Was it established for bona fide social purposes, or was it put up merely in substitution for the public house which had been closed? He had not attempted to define the words, but he had given to the Committee reasons for supposing that no difficulty at all in the administration of justice under this Act would confront
  1460
  any ordinary bench of magistrates. If it was said that his definition or his description was not sufficient, he would ask what did they mean by it in 1903 and in 1904? ["Where."] These were the very words which were in the Scottish Act and the Irish Act. One of the grounds of objection to a club in the Scottish Act was that it was not conducted, in good faith as a club, or that it was habitually used for any unlawful purpose, or mainly for the supply of exciseable liquor. [An HON. MEMBER: Those are not the words here.] Was there any difference? ["Yes."] He would come to that later. In the Irish Act the words were "not conducted in good faith as a club." Reference was also made to habitual use for an unlawful purpose, and then it was said "or mainly for the supply of excise-able liquor." He did not know whether it came as a surprise to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that these words were in these Acts. [Cries of "They are not in."] Was it suggested that there was any difference? ["Yes."] He would wait and see what the difference was. If a club was "mainly used for the supply of exciseable liquor" a club was "mainly used as a drinking club" or so it appeared to him. On the other hand if a club was mainly used as a drinking club it could be properly described as a club "mainly for the supply of exciseable liquors." If his definition failed in any respect, perhaps right hon. and hon. Gentlemen would give him a definition of what they put in their Irish and Scottish Acts, and he would see if he agreed with it. He came back to the immediate purpose of the Amendment of the hon. Baronet, and he wanted to remind him of what he said earlier in the evening, when he thought the hon. Member was not present, of the course which the Government had taken in regard to this matter. They had been in communication with a large union of really genuine bona fide clubs, and what they asked for first of all was a change of constitution in the Court dealing with this matter. That was when the Government thought that the licensing justices were the proper body for the sake of the symmetry of their Bill, but the Government said they would give this provision they would make it possible for the Court to penalise in costs a person who brought an unfounded charge, and make

  1461
  it possible for the Court, indeed compulsory, to administer oaths and to take no evidence except upon oath. That was a matter entirely beyond what was allowed in the case of owners of licensed premises under the Act of 1872. He was able to tell the Committee that the able and energetic secretary of that union, which he thought comprised over a thousand clubs, was perfectly content that the word "person" should remain in the Bill now that the Government had changed the constitution of the Court. That being so, he hoped the hon. Baronet, so far as his Amendment, which was moved in a similar interest, was strictly concerned, would be content with what the Government had done.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he held no brief for the Club and Institute Union or any other body, but he hoped his hon. friend would stick to the Amendment which he had moved. There was no doubt a certain number of clubs in his constituency, he thought not a very large number, and he had had from them but one single communication against this Bill, and that was a very strong protest which came from a Liberal club, the members of which he did not count among his supporters. On the merits of the Amendment he was entirely with his hon. friend that it was not proper to give such wide powers of objection as were contained in the Bill to any person, no matter who that person might be, and no matter where he came from. They might have a peripatetic gentleman from some organisation busying himself in districts with which he had no concern, in matters of which he had no knowledge, taking frivolous objections to the registration or to the existence of clubs, and thereby causing very considerable inconvenience and loss of time to many men who could ill afford either. They must bear in mind that it would be the committeemen who would have to go and defend their action in Court, and as had been stated, these would be working men who could not go and attend to these matters without the loss of their ordinary employment. He thought, that to give gentlemen of this sort power to object without their having necessarily any connection with the locality and without
  1462
  any guarantee of good faith or interest in the matter was to inflict a great hardship upon a bona fide club. He must repeat and amplify what his right hon. friend said a little earlier in the evening, that the provisions of their Act of 1902 afforded no precedent for what the Government was now doing. What, after all, was the object of the particular clause they were now considering? It was to bring under review once a year every club in which exciseable liquor was sold—at least to make a fixed period at which the attention of everybody would be directed to these clubs, the general object, although they might differ as to the mode of carrying it out, being that attention should be turned to bad and illicit clubs, and prevent their registration. What did the Government expect? If they expected anything, they expected objections to be much more numerous or sensibly more numerous than they had been in the past. It was true that under the old Act objection might be taken at any time, but the opportunity to do it at any time was not nearly so generally availed of as an opportunity to do it on any particular day or time. As one of his friends put it to him, he preferred to take his house from year to year, as an annual tenancy never came to an end, but a lease did and when it did, the rent was apt to be raised. In other words when they made a time for things to come under review they invited objections, and they ought to see that the power to make those objections was not abused. In this connection he must go further and say that it became infinitely more important that they should have regard to the other provisions of the section to which the hon. and learned Solicitor-General referred. Under the Act of 1902 objections were meant to refer to matters of fact or alleged matters of fact which had taken place in the past, but under the present Bill they might be founded upon necessarily speculative opinions as to what was going to take place in the future. He would for himself make an admission, though he did not know whether his hon. friends would agree, but he thought that some power ought to be given to raise an objection to the registration of a club where in the opinion of responsible people, such as an authorised police officer, there

  1463
  was reason to suppose that the club was going to be opened merely to evade the licensing law; and he was prepared to contemplate anticipatory action—action based upon anticipation of what was likely to happen, and not merely action as under the Act of 1902, in respect of what had already taken place in a club which was already registered. But again he said the fact that they introduced that speculative element required them to take greater precautions so that the power to take objection was not abused. He also said that in connection with the vagueness of the words on which the objection might be founded—that the club was used or to be used mainly as a drinking club. The very fact that they had introduced this power of looking forward and speculating on the future ought to make them more rather than less careful to define the grounds upon which registration or the renewal of it might be refused. He did not agree that the words in this Bill meant what the words in their Act meant. If that was so why pick a quarrel? Why not take the words of their Act, and say that a club was not going to be conducted in good faith only as a club.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid the right hon. Gentleman was referring to another part of the subsection.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he was referring to the English Act, while the hon. and learned Gentleman had referred to others. He had a natural preference for the English Act. This phrase was, no doubt, put in by the hon. and learned Gentleman as an equivalent. The provisions of the Irish and Scottish Acts were an exact equivalent. Would he give them the exact words of those Acts?
  SIR S. EVANS: Is there any difference?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: If there is no difference, why not take those words?
  SIR S. EVANS: What is the difference?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he preferred them because they were
  1464
  more definite and specific. The hon. and learned Gentleman said they were not, but when they were trying to strike a bargain, and one of the persons to the bargain asked for something which the other thought was of no value, why should he not give it? Nothing was lost, because that which was asked for was, in the opinion of the person who gave it, of no value.
  SIR S. EVANSasked, in order that the Government might consider whether they should or should not retain their own words, which they preferred, whether the right hon. Gentleman would say what the exact difference was.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINconsidered the phrase in the Act of 1902 more definite than that of the hon. and learned Gentleman. The hon. and learned Gentleman himself considered it equally good for the purpose, yet he refused to adopt the phrase that he had quoted from the Act. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated that he did not wish to strike at such a club as that instanced by the hon. Member for the Cambridge University, a club admittedly well conducted, but whose revenue was wholly obtained from the sale of alcoholic liquor. He thought the hon. and learned Gentleman was right. He could not strike at such clubs. Then what a farce it was to say that by this Bill they were going to promote temperance by restricting the facilities for obtaining drink. They were going to restrict one class of facilities and allow the other to grow and increase throughout the country.
  MR. CLAVELL SALTERsaid that one of the difficulties they suffered from in the discussion of this Bill was that directly an Amendment was proposed a representative of the Government got up and rejected it, and the debate from that moment became unreal. If the hon. and learned Gentleman had accepted this as a good Amendment not only would those Members who were present have accepted it, but the large majority of those within the precincts who knew nothing of the Bill, and cared less, would have come in in troops to support it.

  1465
  Because the hon. and learned Gentleman rejected it all the Members in the Chamber and elsewhere who supported the Government opposed it. He supported the Amendment, although he thought in the mere matter of verbiage that of the hon. Member for Thanet was preferable. Genuine clubs were increasing and would increase, and if this Bill became law he imagined there would be no doubt that bogus clubs would increase. The sharpest possible distinction should be made between bogus and genuine clubs; there should be no mercy given to the bogus but every possible consideration given to the genuine clubs. For that reason he regretted that the Government had not distinguished more sharply between the origination of a club and the annual registration and review. He would willingly have supported an Amendment which would have strengthened this Bill immensely as regards the original starting of a club. A club of the most mischievous character could be started, if attention was not called to it, without any sort of inquiry whatever. He would like to see a most rigid inquiry by an impartial authority when a club was started, and once it established the fact that it was a bona fide club he would interfere with it as little as possible. Everybody who had had any practical experience of the renewal of licences for public-houses would have no difficulty in estimating to themselves the kind of thing that would happen every year when these clubs came up for registration. The methods would be the same as those with which they were familiar in the case of the public-houses. There would be spies, possibly paid, always suspected of being paid, getting into these clubs and being entertained there in good faith, who would come and give evidence upon what they saw, who was there, what they were drinking, what they talked about, when they left, and the exact degree of heinousness which marked the offences. Malice would enter into the matter, politics and personal local feeling would enter into it. There would be intense jealousy. The hon. and learned Gentleman had told the Committee that no mischief had resulted from the unlimited power given to the people to oppose licences. He himself
  1466
  thought a great deal of mischief had resulted. There was a great deal of frivolous and vexatious objection on the application for the renewal of licences. But even if the hon. and learned Gentleman was right it was not the same thing. The publican was trading for profit and, holding a monopoly from the State, occupied a different position. It was part of his career to stand up before a magistrate, but it was no part of the career of people who took a private house for the purposes of a club. He did not propose to deal with the point "mainly as a drinking club." It was too indefinite. Had the word been merely as the hon. and learned Gentleman paraphrased it, the position would have been much easier to deal with. The only point he wished to make with regard to these words was this: What would be gained by permitting all these annual objections, which would be the result of this clause? Would anything be gained? The objector could not succeed without satisfying the Court that the club was mainly used as a drinking club, and if he could prove that there was no need for this Bill. Under the existing law, if he proved that he could get the club struck off the register. He submitted, therefore, that all that would be done would be to introduce all this additional burden into the country without the evil being suppressed. They would get equal efficiency and less friction by entrusting this duty to the responsible police officer. There was not the same bitterness when the information was given by a police officer that was experienced if it was given by "any person." The police existed for the purpose and the clubs would accept with good humour even unfounded charges made in good faith by a constable, but they would not stand it from one of their neighbours. Moreover, unfounded charges were rare, because the police were careful. The Solicitor-General had referred them to a section in the Scottish Act, but he thought he was right in saying that under the Scottish law the persons who might move to oppose the annual registration were the police and council of the borough. If that were so, and if it was to be regarded as an authority, it was a strong argument in favour of the Amendment. He submitted

  1467
  to those Members of the Committee who had not made up their minds about the matter, that to say "any person" was to lay clubs open to reckless charges and introduce evils with no adequate advantage to the cause of temperance.
  MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid he held with everybody else in that House that it was of the highest importance to discriminate between bona fide and bogus clubs, and it was even more important to discriminate between bona fide and bogus objections. There were various excellent statutory precedents affording a method of discriminating between bona fide and bogus objections. It was pleaded on the Treasury bench that these words "any person" existed in the Licensing Acts, and also in other Acts applying to clubs. But both the Licensing Acts and the Acts applying to clubs became law before that House passed another most interesting Act which afforded a method of distinguishing between bogus and bona fide attempts to set up a prosecution. He referred to the Prevention of Corrupt Practices Act. Under that Act they could not set up a prosecution against the persons who offered or the employee who betrayed his employer's interest by receiving a bribe, without first obtaining the fiat of so important an officer as the Attorney-General. But under this particular proposal they were going to put bona fide clubs, clubs of respectable working men, carried on in a respectable manner, in a worse position than the person who offered, or the employee who betrayed his employer by receiving a bribe in the course of trade.
  MR. LAMBTONsaid the Solicitor-General had given an instance of how to distinguish between bogus and bona fide clubs. He took the example of a public-house which had been shut up, and of the same premises, or new premises in the same street, being used for the purpose of a club, with either the publican or his manager conducting it. In such circumstances, the hon. and learned Gentleman had observed, they would obviously be dealing with a bogus club, and ought to refuse it registration. But to bring a case before the Court was not such a simple matter. All
  1468
  who were connected with the licensing bench were familiar with applications for transfer, or for an extension of hours on a particular occasion, and when such applications came before them they gently asked the superintendent of police if there was any objection. Surely, in the case of clubs, police officers would be the proper persons to give information; they would be the very persons to put all the facts before the magistrates. The Solicitor-General had talked of clubs springing up like mushrooms in one night, but on that he would remark that the police would know what was going on, and could go before the bench with the necessary objections. The Solicitor-General had twitted the Opposition with objecting to the words "used mainly for drinking," and said that similar words appeared in the Scottish and Irish Acts relating to clubs. But this was entirely a different matter. What would the hon. Member for Appleby or the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley say of a club where every member drank his glass-of beer once a day. Those two Gentlemen would maintain that the club was used "mainly for the purpose of drinking." ["Oh."] He thought that would be the view of a great many people; they would say: "Every man who is a member of the club goes there for the main purpose of drinking his glass of beer or spirits." The words used by the Irish and Scotish Acts had quite a different import. It was merely a matter of opinion whether or not a club was a drinking club, yet they proposed to give the power contained in the subsection to any casual explorer of the club, any outsider, who might think that a certain amount of alcohol was bad, and therefore, brought the objection before the Court that the club was "mainly for the purpose of drinking." The police officer would not do that. He could not understand why the Government did not accept the Amendment, which would not remove any restriction from bogus clubs while it would give some confidence to bona fide clubs.
  MR. HART-DAVIESsaid he did not want to be more royalist than the King, and if the clubs did not

  1469
  object certainly he did not. He remembered a case where a man had been turned out of a working-men's club for drunkenness, and he afterwards distinguished himself by writing to the newspapers to say that this working men's club was a home of drunkenness. He was in a position to make that, statement. But, as he had said, if the clubs did not object certainly he had no reason to object. He suggested that as there were numerous other Amendments of extreme importance, one especially dealing with brewers' tied clubs, it would be well to close the discussion, on the present Amendment.
  MR. HUNTsaid he could assure the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down that the clubs in his part of the country entertained a very strong objection indeed to this perfectly absurd proposal of the Government. The hon. Gentleman had given a case in point of a man who was ejected from a club, and who afterwards turned against it, and did his best to get it taken off the register. Workmen in his part of the world said there were certain people who were clearly sane on everything except the question of alcohol. Such people thought it very wrong that any person should have an opportunity of going into any sort of house or club where they might possibly get a wineglassful of alcoholic liquor. It was pointed out that these people would be perfectly certain to object to all such clubs. These working men in his constituency had impressed upon him that if there was no way of getting out of this proposal, it should be insisted that there should be three people to object instead of one. He could not move the Amendment which stood in his name, but that was what they asked him to do, if nothing better could be done. He thought the Government should give this question very serious consideration, because the proposal was certainly against the interests of well-conducted clubs of the working classes.
  MR. WYNDHAMwished to reply to one point in the speech of the Solicitor-General, who had complained of their criticism against the vagueness of the words to which they objected, namely, "used mainly as a drinking club." The
  1470
  hon. and learned Gentleman said they were not entitled to complain of the vagueness of these words, because the words of their own English Act of 1902 were as vague—he did not say they were identical. But the words of the Act of 1902 were—
  "That it is not conducted in good faith."
  SIR S. EVANS: No, no.
  MR. WYNDHAMbegged the hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon; he had given as an example of vagueness the words of Section 28, Subsection (1) (b),—
  "That it is not conducted in good faith."
  But in subsection (2) of the same section there were the words—
  "For the purpose of determining whether a club is conducted in good faith as a club the Court shall have regard to the nature of the premises occupied as a club."
  There was a specific direction that the Court were to interpret those words upon the evidence available, namely, the premises of the club. He therefore held that the Solicitor-General's retort could not be allowed to stand. The words of the Bill, "used or to be used mainly for drinking," were an addition to the grounds of objection set forth in the Act of 1902; they were an addition to which they objected, because they were a vague phrase, not a legal phrase, as the hon. and learned Gentleman had himself admitted, but a phrase which invited any person living in any part of the country to form any opinion, however prejudiced and absurd, about a club, and to harass respectable citizens who were members of it.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he had sat through this discussion, and he had noticed amongst all sections of the Committee that there had been expressed a very general desire not to interfere unduly with the club that was conducted on proper lines. It seemed to him if that were so that the words "any person" were altogether too sweeping. They had to remember that this laid every club open, notwithstanding the reply of the Solicitor-General regarding costs, to frivolous objections which, might involve in some cases, no fewer

  1471
  than twenty, in some cases thirty, working men losing a day's, work to attend before a stipendiary or a Court of Summary Jurisdiction. He might be told that their remedy lay in the fact that if the case went against the objector he would be subjected to costs. He was afraid that would not be very satisfactory to these twenty or thirty working men who lost their day's wage if they found out, as they might very often do, that the man who objected was nothing more than a man of straw. They might be told—he thought they had been told—that it was the law at present that any person could object under the Act of 1902. But might he remind the Committee that the position by this Bill was being made entirely different? They had now, according to the clause that they had passed yesterday, established an annual registration. The Solicitor-General had given the explanation that a summons could be taken out almost every week in the year. But when they laid it down in an Act of Parliament that there was to be an annual registration, they were inviting, at definitely stated times, the objector, however frivolous the objection might be, to go to the Court and raise it. Therefore it seemed to him that if they had no desire to harass the well-conducted club, they were going a little too far. He was not satisfied that they were having offered to them the proper remedy for this in the Amendment of the hon. Baronet. He thought he was going too far in the opposite direction. He was taking away from everybody concerned in the locality, everybody whose property or whole social life might be affected by a bogus club, the direct power of objection. The objection, if this Amendment became law, could only be made through a duly authorised police officer. It seemed to him that that was carrying them altogether too far in the opposite direction from the position that he had first stated. The persons in every locality where these clubs were situated ought to have some power of objection, but it ought to lie in their being allowed to go to the chief constable and state the objections. The chief constable with his experience would be able at once to say whether he thought it was a legitimate
  1472
  bona fide objection or not. In the event of his being satisfied he would make himself responsible on behalf of the locality, as the properly constituted official, to appear before the Court and lodge the objection. The discussion that had taken place regarding the words "mainly as a drinking club" appeared to him to be the strongest argument why the suggestion that he was now making ought to be accepted. If it were accepted the individuals in the locality in which the club was situated would be able to keep up their interest. But they might have some difficulty in defining what was "mainly a drinking club." The Solicitor-General shook his head, but they were not all lawyers. They were legislating for working men and working men's clubs. If they had that difficulty and they thought that the club was being improperly used, surely it ought to be within their power to go to someone who had proper experience and say that a certain club was being used so-and-so, and ask whether it was a violation of the law. If, on getting full information, he concluded that it was a violation of the conditions of registration, he would, on behalf of the locality, as an official, lodge an objection to the next registration, and probably call the individual who had come to him in an open, honest way and lodged the information, as his chief witness. In this suggestion they could link up both ideas—first of all of giving any person the right to object to the chief constable, and, secondly, of constituting the chief constable the properly constituted official who would take the objection, after he had sifted it, to the registration Court. In this way they would be removing the risk of frivolous objection and of taking twenty or thirty working men as the committee of the club to the Court, only to hear that, after all, the objection was a frivolous one, and to find that the man objecting was a man of straw, and that they had been mulcted in all their expenses without any opportunity of obtaining a satisfactory remedy.
  SIR E. CARSONthought the speech that had just been made was well worthy the consideration of the Government. His early experience of licensing sessions, he was glad to say, was in a country where everybody bore a very good character.

  1473
  What used to happen? It might be imagined that some bona fide objections came in on those occasions—a serious householder or someone who got up and made a specific objection to the renewal of the licence. Not at all. The same one man objected to every licence. In Ireland it was necessary to get a ratepayer or a householder, but there was not that limitation here. They always had the same one. It was usually the employee of some temperance association, and upon each occasion he got up and stated that he had an objection to this particular house—generally the same objection. He wanted to have a clean sweep and purify the neighbourhood, but he would not have a shilling. What would it matter to him whether there was an order for costs or not? They might go and whistle for their costs. They would have the registration of these clubs objected to every year and considerable expense put upon the respectable clubs, because no matter what their character was, high or low, any association or any individual might come in and make an objection. That would be a very serious state of affairs to the many respectable clubs. Another reason why the Government might be asked to make a concession was that already any person might at any time, as he understood it, lodge a complaint against a club. If that was a right given to any person, was that not quite sufficient for the stock objector without giving him the right to come in at the annual session of justices and lodge this objection? If there was any real case against any individual club by reason of which it ought to be stuck off the register, any person could now bring it forward. If they had that and the annual right of lodgment of a complaint to the chief constable, surely they were doing enough to give the fullest opportunity for preventing these bogus clubs, and at the same time they were doing what they always ought to attempt to do—minimising as far as possible any inconvenience or impertinence towards the genuine club. In that way, if they showed a distinction in their legislation as between the two, not only would they do what was fair towards the genuine club, but they would do a great
  1474
  deal to get the genuine club upon their side as against the bogus club. It would be well, having regard to the powers which already existed and to the powers in any event which they would create under this Bill, that some concession should be made. He wished to make one other observation. It should always be borne in mind that, apart altogether from this legislation, there was nothing to prevent at any time the police prosecuting any house where they were selling drink without a licence if the place was not a bona fide club. The police could go in and say: "Really, this is a public-house, and you have no licence." They had a perfect right to do that apart from these statutes, and the accumulation of these actions against clubs, making no distinction between real and bogus clubs, would become so exasperating that, so far from doing good, harm would be done.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid that after the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman, and the hon. Member for Barnard Castle he desired to say a few words. The considerations which had been urged so forcibly by the right hon. and learned Gentleman were urged quite as forcibly in Committee upstairs when the Act of 1902 was considered, and it was then argued that they ought not to allow any person to set the law in motion. On that occasion the Committee adopted the words "any person" and the Government saw no reason to make any distinction between objections to the annual renewal of a licence and objections and complaints in regard to applications for the registration of clubs. The right hon. and learned Member referred to the question of costs, and said those representing the clubs would never get their costs in case the action, went in their favour. His answer to that was that under the Act of 1872 in the case I of 90,000 licences, there had been no abuse of this right of objection to the renewal of any licence.
  MR. YOUNGERsaid there had been a great abuse in Scotland.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid, in replying to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, he

  1475
  wished to point out that the Amendment he had on the Paper would not provide a better alternative than the Government proposal. His hon. friend's Amendment provided that any person might—
  "at any time on his own personal knowledge forward to the chief constable—"
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order. I think it would be better not to go into that Amendment.
  SIR S. EVANSinvited the hon. Member for Barnard Castle to give the Government his support until he heard what they had to say upon the next Amendment.
  *MR. G. A. GIBBSsaid that now there was to be the annual registration of all clubs it made all the difference in the world. Under this section they were going to give power to any man to object to any club when the question of the renewal of the registration came up every year. Any fanatic would be able to go about from place to place objecting to the renewal of the registration of any club, and the same man might be found in dozens of different places objecting to clubs and making it incumbent upon the officials of the clubs concerned to come into Court and prove that their clubs were bona fide. This sort of espionage would be most objectionable and un-English, and it would be much better to leave it to the police officer who knew all about the district.
  SIR HENRY KIMBERdesired if possible that they should have one division instead of two. He had concluded that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle was better than his own and if the Government were willing to accept it he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  [Cries of "No, no."] The observations of the Solicitor-General had dealt mainly with subsequent parts of the clause, and had no pertinence to his Amendment which was intended to abolish the common informer and the spy. With regard to the costs in a police-court they were merely trumpery as compared with the pains and worry given to the officers of the club. All the officials of a club and the whole of the committee might have to come to the Court for the purpose of proving that their club was properly conducted; in fact they would be called upon to prove their own innocence instead of having the guilt proved against them. Did any hon. Member ever hear of the costs against a common informer being recovered? He had never known an instance of that kind. The points of the Solicitor-General were good as far as they went, but the common informer would be still in existence and the spy would be left at work. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle provided the same safeguard as his own Amendment in regard to the police-constable, and he was willing to withdraw his Amendment in favour of the hon. Member's if the Government would accept it.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Unless the Government are going to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle we must discuss these Amendments separately.
  SIR HENRY KIMBERasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Leave refused.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 241; Noes, 101. (Division List No. 330).

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Agnew, George William

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Armitage, R.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brace, William

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

  Brigg, John

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire

  Hogan, Michael

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Robinson, S.

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Hudson, Walter

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Byles William Pollard

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Cameron, Robert

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Rose, Charles Day

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Clough, William

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Sears, J. E.

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Seely, Colonel

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Kelley, George D.

  Shackleton, David James

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Crooks, William

  Lamont, Norman

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Crossley, William J.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Snowden, P.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Erskine, David C.

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Essex, R. W.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  M'Laron, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Ferens, T. R.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Massie, J.

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Toulmin, George

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Middlebrook, William

  Verney, F. W.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Walton, Joseph

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Mond, A.

  Wardle, George J.

  Glen-Coates, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. Clackmannan

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Murray, Capt Hn. A. C. (Kincard.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Napier, T. B.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Nicholls, George

  Whitbread, Howard

  Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Nuttall, Harry

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Partington, Oswald

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Henry, Charles S.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Rees, J. D.

  Mr. Joseph Pease and Master

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  of Elibank.

  Hodge, John

  Richardson, A.

  1478

  1479

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Glover, Thomas

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

  Renton, Leslie

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Renwick, George

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gretton, John

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Banner, John S. Harmood

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Seddon, J.

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Starkey, John R.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hill, Sir Clement

  Steadman, W. C.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hunt, Rowland

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Jowett, F. W.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Summerbell, T.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Valentia, Viscount

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walsh, Stephen

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore

  Morpeth, Viscount

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Clynes, J. R.

  Myer, Horatio

  Winterton, Earl

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E.

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Nield, Herbert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Oddy, John James

  Young, Samuel

  Cross, Alexander

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Younger, George

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Percy, Earl

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Sir Henry Kimber and Mr.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  George Gibbs.

  MR. BOTTOMLEYmoved an Amendment providing that the power of objecting to the registration or re-registration of a club should be limited to "any resident in the district." He said it was undesirable that the power of objecting should be put into the hands of some unnamed and indefinite person. Only those who had a local interest should be invested with this power. He could not conceive any possible argument against the Amendment and, therefore, he did not think it necessary to advance any more in its favour.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 18, line 22, after the word 'person,' to insert the words 'resident in the district.'"—(Mr. Bottomley.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR S. EVANSsaid that this Amendment covered the same ground as they had been covering for the last three hours. He was sorry that the Government could not accept the Amendment. It would raise many difficulties which did not at present exist—questions as to what a district was, and who were residents in a district. The Amendment contemplated a difficulty which would never occur, because it would be found in practice that only persons interested in a district would object.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97 Noes, 230. (Division List No. 331.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Baring, Capt Hn. G. (Winchester)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Ashley, W. W.

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Balcarres, Lord

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Snowden, P.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Starkey, John R.

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Cross, Alexander

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Summerbell, T.

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Lynch, H. B.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Myer, Horatio

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Gretton, John

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

  Wardle, George J.

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Nield, Herbert

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

  Oddy, John James

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Winterton, Earl

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Young, Samuel

  Hill, Sir Clement

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Younger, George

  Hodge, John

  Renton, Leslie

  Hudson, Walter

  Renwick, George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bottomley and Mr. George

  Jowett, F. W.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Faber.

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  NOES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Agnew, George William

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Armitage, R.

  Crooks, William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Crossley, William, J.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hogan, Michael

  Barnes, G. N.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

  Erskine, David C.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Essex, R. W.

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Ferens, T. R.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Brace, William

  Findlay, Alexander

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Brigg, John

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Kelley, George D.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Glover, Thomas

  Lamont, Norman

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Byles, William Pollard

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Cameron, Robert

  Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampt'n

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Carr-Gomm H. W.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Clough, William

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Crae, Sir George

  1482

  1483

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Richardson, A.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Toulmin, George

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Robinson, S.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Massie, J.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Verney, F. W.

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Walton, Joseph

  Middlebrook, William

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Mond, A.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Scott, A. H. (Aston under Lyne

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard

  Sears, J. E.

  Whitbread, Howard

  Napier, T. B.

  Seddon, J.

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Nicholls, George

  Seely, Colonel

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Shackleton, David James

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Partington, Oswald

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central.)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucetser)

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Joseph Pease and Master of

  Rees, J. D.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Elibank.

  Richards, Thomas W. (Monm'th

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONmoved to amend the subsection so that it should read: "Any person may at any time on his own personal knowledge forward to the chief constable of a county or borough such information as he considers a violation of the conditions of registration of any club, and such chief constable shall investigate the complaint and make a record of such investigation, and then, if satisfied that the same affords good ground for objection, shall lodge an objection to the renewal of the registration of the club." Believing that his Amendment would not be reached he had availed himself of the opportunity on another Amendment of saying almost everything he had to submit in favour of his own. He hoped that what he said then was sufficiently convincing. There was one point, however, which he wished to put before the Solicitor-General who had tried to influence the Committee by endeavouring to persuade them that the representatives of the Club and Institute Union were satisfied. He could assure the Committee that a deputation from the
  1484
  executive of the Club and Institute Union had waited upon the Labour Party, and strongly urged them to press this Amendment. The Solicitor-General had several times during the debates hinted the willingness of the Government to take the voice and opinion of the Committee in regard to Amendments on the club clauses.
  SIR S. EVANS: To strengthen them; not to weaken them.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he hoped he was doing nothing to weaken the clause now before the Committee. His Amendment would certainly strengthen the Bill. Without this Amendment any twenty or thirty working men might be dragged from their work to the Court at the expense of losing their day's pay of 5s. or 5s. 6d. each. When they got to the Court they might find it was only a frivolous objection put forward by a man of straw, who could not pay their costs. The proviso in the Act that costs should be obtainable was worthless so far as these thirty

  1485
  poor workmen were concerned. He urged the Government to leave this question to the Committee, because on all sides of the House there was a very strong feeling in favour of this Amendment, and, if it were not made a party question, the Amendment would be carried by a large majority.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 18, line 22, after the word 'may, to insert the words 'at any time on his own personal knowledge forward to the chief constable of a county or borough such information as he considers a violation of the conditions of registration of any club, and such chief constable shall investigate the complaint and make a record of such investigation, and then, if satisfied that the same affords good ground for objection, shall.'"—(Mr. Arthur Henderson.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR S. EVANSsaid he did not know what was the date of the interview which the hon. Member had with the representatives of the Club and Institute Union.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON: Thursday last.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid that on Tuesday the Committee decided as to the change in the constitution of the Court, and it was since then that the Government were informed that there was no objection. However, he wanted it to be distinctly understood that he would be the last person in the world to say that they should be influenced by any consideration of that kind; they should discuss the question entirely on its merits. He thought that the acceptance of this Amendment would weaken the provisions of the Bill with regard to clubs, and if it were looked at carefully he believed it would be recognised that it ought not to receive the support of or be pressed on the Committee. In the first place, it made it impossible for anyone to take proceedings except the chief constable—no police constable, no police sergeant, no police inspector, nobody except the chief constable. He would ask his hon. friend to remember that there was not, so far as he knew, a single precedent for that in any legislation which the House had
  1486
  ever passed. There was not a single case which he could bring to mind where there was any reference to any investigation of any offence or charge in which it was enacted that nobody but the chief constable could take proceedings. He thought that was a solid argument against the Amendment. He would go further and say that the hon. Member was making a mistake as to the effect of his Amendment. He would not now discuss the probability of there being frivolous objections, but if there were to be any frivolous objections at all the Amendment would give greater power to make them. If there was to be espionage, this Amendment would not only permit it, but encourage it. The hon. Member wanted anybody to go to the chief constable and give him such information as he considered to be a violation of the law. But what would that do? Instead of the man coming openly in the light of day to the Court he would pour his tale into the ears of the chief constable. An expelled member of the club, who through spite wished to do something against the club, was precisely the man who would go to the chief constable to show him that the rules had been violated. Supposing that the chief constable followed that by investigation, he might think it necessary to go over all the premises, and inspect all the books. But, if the chief constable thought he was bound to take these proceedings by reason of the information given him, what would happen? No costs would be given against him by any magistrate. Finally, by the Amendment, the hon. Member was seeking to make the chief constable the final judge in the matter instead of the Court of Summary Jurisdiction, unless the chief constable was to take proceedings in every case in which there was prima facie evidence. He hoped he had argued his point fairly to the Committee.
  LORD R. CECILsaid he could not say that he was at all impressed by the arguments of the Solicitor-General, although they were very much indebted to the hon. and learned Gentleman for the great care which he had evidently given to the matter. In the first place, the Solicitor General said that this was a very unusual provision and that there was no precedent for it. He was always struck by the

  1487
  curious affection which hon. Members opposite had for real old Tory arguments. It was quite true, he dared say, that there was no precedent for it, but he did not think that that mattered very much, for the whole of this legislation was unreasonable and unprecedented. They had to deal with a very difficult and delicate situation, in which they must apply some measure of restriction so as to catch the bad clubs, but with a sufficiently large mesh to allow the good clubs to go through. Then the hon. and learned Gentleman said that the Amendment would really give greater power to the spy, who would, without coming into the open, go to the chief constable and pour into his ears the tale of calumny which he would be ashamed to tell in open Court. So he could now whatever legislation was passed. But in addition to that, they did not wish that the spy should be able to inflict an undeserved penalty on members of a club, whether guilty or not. Unless there was some preliminary inquiry, such as would be undertaken by the chief constable, the spy would be able to force twenty or thirty poor working men to go to Court, give up a day's work at serious inconvenience, and lose a day's pay, without the slightest justification. That was the difficulty they had to meet, and he should think they might safely trust the chief constables not to take up any really frivolous complaint. He would have thought it was a very legitimate and deliberate test to say that a person had to satisfy the chief constable that he had some kind of case before he could bring it into Court. The last argument of the Solicitor-General seemed most amazing—that this would make the chief constable the final judge. But that official would have to bring the case before the Court and to satisfy the tribunal, and he did not think so badly of the magistrates composing the petty benches as to say that they would take the word of the chief constable without investigating for themselves. The chief constable had also to make a record, and show what investigations he had made, and to satisfy the Court that the club ought not to be registered. He would illustrate that. Much of our penal legislation provided that proceedings
  1488
  should not be brought without the fiat of the Attorney-General, but nobody suggested that that made the Attorney-General the final judge of such matters. It merely showed, if he issued the fiat, that the Attorney-General thought it was a matter which should be brought before the Court He could only hope that if this was the sole argument the Government could bring forward, the Committee would decide upon the argument, and not on Party lines.
  MR. CURRANsaid the hon. and learned Solicitor-General seemed to make out a case in favour of the Amendment of his hon. friend rather than against it. As the law stood to-day the chief constable was the supervising authority in the radius which he governed. If the police staff under him found any complaint in regard to the bad government or the bad conduct of a club they had to report to the chief constable at the present moment, In the first place, the hon. and learned Gentleman admitted that frivolous complaints were quite possible. They thought they were more than possible — that they were probable. It might not be only the faddist who was against all clubs who might make a complaint; it might be a person who had some spite against the governing executive of the club. It might be either the temperance faddist or the spiteful person, who, by making the accusation, would put the club to expense. Therefore, in his opinion, the chief constable ought to be empowered to investigate any complaint in his position, as responsible officer governing a staff of policemen in his area. He ought to make minute investigations prior to lodging a complaint and commencing a prosecution, and it should only be upon the authority of the chief constable that such a prosecution should be undertaken, instead of upon the initiative of an irresponsible person. He therefore hoped that the advice of his hon. friend who moved the Amendment would be taken, and the Committee would be allowed a free hand on the question of adopting the Amendment.
  *MR. REESsaid the noble Lord, who was a counsel learned in the law, had supported this Amendment, but he wanted to ask the Solicitor-General whether it was not unusual, unnecessary, and undesirable to provide by statute that a person might do that which he might do without any statute at all. Any person might at the present time forward to the chief constable any such information as he considered necessary as to any violation of this or the other law, and it seemed to him unnecessary for a statute to provide that a chief constable should investigate such a complaint. He thought he was bound without any statute to investigate such complaints. He was always under the impression, when it was his duty to draft Bills as Secretary to a Legislative Council that he should not provide for anything which was unnecessary and superfluous. It appeared to him that this Amendment was superfluous.
  MR. PICKERSGILLthought his hon. friend the Member for Barnard Castle only stated the truth when he mentioned that there was considerable feeling in the House in favour of the Amendment. As he understood the Solicitor-General, he mainly relied on the absence of precedent. He would give him one. Under the Lord's Day Observance Act a prosecution could only be undertaken with the consent in writing of the chief constable or his deputy.
  *MR. CLAVELL SALTERcould not understand why the Government objected to the Amendment. The desire, had been to get a general initiative, and to avoid frivolous attacks upon genuine clubs. Did they not combine those two things under the Amendment? Anyone could set the police in motion, and they had the experience of the police in regard to the proceedings. Surely this Amendment was most necessary. It placed upon the police officer the most important duty of receiving from any person any complaint, and it then became his business to investigate and make a record—a new and most important feature. If the chief constable did not take proceedings, and the complainant thought he should,
  1490
  a complaint could be made to his superior officer, the record was there, and his conduct was open to investigation. Was he right in saying that the only result of resisting this Amendment was that a complaint which was so frivolous that the police officer ignored it could yet be brought forward for the vexation and irritation of these clubs? Any complaint not absolutely frivolous would be taken up by the police.
  MR. SHACKLETONsaid he would like to urge one more point upon the Solicitor-General, viz., the importance of leaving this matter open if he could. He knew that it was a matter of considerable feeling as shown by the expressions they had heard in the division lobby. He thought it would be wise to leave a matter like this to the Committtee to decide for themselves. He did not think there was much in the point as to weakening oversight, because he thought the Solicitor-General admitted that this would rather encourage the spy. That could not weaken oversight, because it would encourage the spy to give information. At least, the authorities in a town would have more information than they would have otherwise. From that point of view it could not weaken it. He did not see that there was anything in the point made about only the chief constable being able to do this. The chief constable was the authority now in regard to complaints about licensed holders. If a constable came in with a report, the chief constable had to settle whether the matter should go forward or not. The Committee; must recollect that they were dealing chiefly with working men in these clubs. They might have a commitee of twelve or twenty, These men had the responsible duty of keeping the club in a proper manner, and they might have occasion to expel men who had been guilty of offences that they all wanted to clear out of these clubs, gambling and excessive drinking, and these men might turn round on the committee and hamper them by threats of laying complaints, and the effect would be just the opposite of what the Solicitor-General wished to bring about. They wanted to make it certain that no outside member could

  1491
  turn round and harass the committee and compel them to forfeit a day's work in order to go and answer these complaints. He thought the Government were going to weaken the Bill if they insisted upon this condition, but he considered that by the Amendment of his hon. friend they might meet the case. The Solicitor-General had endeavoured to show that the change of Court had removed the objection of the clubs, but that view had not been conveyed to them, and he did not think the change of the Court removed the objection. The committee of management were responsible, and he thought they would weaken their power if they made it possible for a refractory member or an expelled member to make it hot for them. He hoped the Government would not press this to a party division.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid he had great respect for his hon. friend, and he wanted to make it perfectly clear that he desired the Committee not to vote with any reference to the supposed suggestion of the Club Union or anybody else. He desired them to free their minds of that idea. An appeal had been made to him to leave this question to be decided by the Committee instead of in the ordinary way. He always thought it an indication that the Government had no very strong view on the matter if they took that course. That would be the effect of their saying that the ordinary procedure was not to be followed. But the Government had a very strong view on the matter, and they thought it would weaken the Bill if they took a different course from what they had indicated, and therefore he was reluctantly compelled to say that he could not accede to the request so politely put forward by his hon. friend.
  MR. BYLESsaid he had followed the debate with great care and with an entirely open mind, and he would be very glad indeed if the Government would leave the matter open. If they did so he would still feel it his duty to vote for them because the arguments which had been presented to the Committee by several speakers from the Labour Party had not convinced him, whereas the arguments
  1492
  presented to them so ably by the Solicitor-General had had that effect. The able advocacy of the noble and learned Lord opposite, moreover, had not diminished the force of what the Solicitor-General had said. One argument was mentioned by the Solicitor-General in an earlier debate which had made a great impression on his mind, and that was that ever since 1822 every licensed house had been subject to complaint from any person exactly in the words now proposed that a club in which alcohol was sold should be. For nearly a century these provisions had existed in the case of public-houses, and the frivolous objections of which hon. Members opposite were so afraid had not been made. He thought, therefore, it was only reasonable to expect that clubs would be equally immune.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON: It would not bring twenty men away from their work.
  MR. BYLESpointed out that the frivolous objection had not been made in the case of 90,000 public-houses for nearly a century, and therefore it would not be made in the case of clubs. If it was not made in the case of clubs twenty men would not be brought away from their work to defend themeslves against it. He was not like the noble and learned Lord opposite, wedded to precedent. He was quite ready to create a new precedent if he thought it necessary or desirable.
  *MR. JOYNSON-HICKSdesired, as one who was in favour of making the restrictions with regard to bogus clubs as strong as possible, to say a few words in explanation of his supporting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle. His action throughout, on this clause, had been to strengthen the restrictions for bogus clubs; to make the regulations with regard to the renewal of the registration as severe as possible, but to insure that those regulations should not affeect any properly conducted club, whether it was a working man's club or a club in Pall Mall. This Amendment would do good with regard to the bogus clubs, but if it was not accepted,

  1493
  serious harm would be done to the well-conducted clubs which everybody wanted to protect. He thought the provisions for attacking the bogus clubs suggested by the hon. Member were good, because if there was the slightest ground for complaint and the chief constable's fiat was obtained, the matter would go forward at once.
  MR. STANGERpointed out that the chief constable had very limited power to make investigations. He could not summon witnesses, and if he had a witness before him he could not make him say anything. If the witness did say anything, then he could not be cross-examined. Therefore to hand this matter over to the chief constable would greatly weaken the Bill. Another point to which he would draw attention was this. The Committee had to bear in mind the provisions of the Act of 1902. What an absurdity it would be if they enacted that only one day of the year, the day when these clubs came up for renewal of registration before the Court, could be set aside for this purpose, while on the other 364 days in the year any person, without restriction, whether in the district or not, whether interested in the premises or not, whether he was a spy or a respectable person desirous of the good of the community, could go and make a complaint in writing when all these consequences would at once arise, and members of the clubs would have to come up and give evidence to rebut the objections.
  MR. MIDDLEBROOKsaid he was fully in sympathy with the objects of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but did not agree with their methods of obtaining that object. The Amendment proposed to make the chief constable the only prosecutor in this case. By so doing, they would lessen the public sense of responsibility and the public interest in the management of these clubs. The Amendment was entirely distinct, and had no analogy to the cases which had been instanced where the fiat of the Attorney-General was applied for. In those cases the Attorney-General formed his opinion as to whether there was a prima facie case. If he thought there was, he issued his fiat and left it to those who applied, to bring the action and take the responsibility. But in this case all the burden and responsibility for carrying out the prosecutions were placed upon the chief constable. There were many ways of attaining the object of hon. Gentlemen opposite. There might be power in the magistrates to order security for costs in cases where they thought the objection was frivolous. For these reasons, while agreeing with the object of the Amendment, as he did not think it would carry out the intentions of hon. Gentlemen opposite he could not support it.
  Question put.
  The Committee, divided:—Ayes, 95; Noes, 166. (Division List No. 332.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Hudson, Walter

  Ashley, W. W.

  Crooks, William

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Jowett, F. W.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Kelley, (George D.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester

  Glover, Thomas

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Pickham)

  Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Gretton, John

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Guinness, W. E. Bury S. Edm.)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hills, J. W.

  Nield, Herbert

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Hodge, John

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Hogan, Michael

  Oddy, John James

  Clynes, J. R.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Seddon, J.

  Walton, Joseph

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Shackleton, David James

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Starkey, John R.

  Wardle, George J.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Steadman, W. C.

  White, Patrick (Heath, North)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Ratcliffe, Major R. F.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Summerbell, T.

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Young, Samuel

  Renwick, George

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Younger, George

  Richardson, A.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  George Roberts and Mr.

  Sehwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Charles Duncan.

  NOES.

  Acland Francis Dyke

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Agnew, George William

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Robinson, S.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Armitage, R.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Sears, J. E.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Seely, Colonel

  Barard, E. B.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Brace, William

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Snowden, P.

  Brigg, John

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Lamont, Norman

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Stewart-Smith. D. (Kendal)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Comeron, Robert

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Clough, William

  M'Callum, John M.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Toulmin, George

  Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Marnham, F. J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Verney, F. W.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Massie, J.

  Vivian, Henry

  Cox, Harold

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co)

  Middlebrook, William

  Watt, Henry A.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Mond, A.

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Murray, Capt. Hn A C. (Kincard)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Nicholls, George

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Partington, Oswald)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Rees, J. D.

  Joseph Pease and Master of

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Elibank.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid he wished to move an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Lincoln.
  MR. CHARLES ROBERTSsaid he did not move the Amendment to which the hon. Member referred because he desired to move another Amendment lower on the Paper.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONmoved to omit the words "registration or the," the effect of which would be, he said, to confine objections to the occasions when a club appeared to apply for renewal of registration. Though it might appear paradoxical, he moved the Amendment not because he had any objection to a strict inquiry when a club made application for the first time for registration, but because he thought he could show that there were very strong grounds for objecting to an inquiry such as this clause proposed upon the first occasion of a club's applying for registration. His objection was based on two grounds: in the first place, that the evidence which was sought to be adduced was absurd from the nature of the evidence itself, that it was of a kind which must be purely speculative, and which could not be brought; and, in the second place, he would show the Committee that no such evidence, nor any such words as those contained in the clause, would be in fact operative, and that, however they might seek to have an inquiry on the first application of a club for registration, they would have to provide different words if they wanted a really effective investigation. What were the grounds on which an objection might be made under this subsection of the clause upon the first application for registration? In the first place, it was on the ground that the club was "used or to be used mainly as a drinking club." Of course, it could not be "was used" on the first application. He would quote the grounds mentioned in Section 28 of the Act of 1902. Let the Committee consider the position. A club made its first application for registration. Somebody came forward and objected, and the grounds on which he was entitled to object under the Act of 1902 were these: "That the
  1498
  club has ceased to exist." Obviously that was inapplicable, as the club was applying for registration for the first time. "That the number of members is less than twenty-five." That was applicable. "That the premises are not adapted in good faith to a club, or that it is kept, or habitually used, for any unlawful purpose." That was clearly inapplicable on a first application. "Frequent drunkenness." That was also inapplicable for the like reason. "Illegal sales of intoxicating liquors have taken place." That, too, was inapplicable. "Persons not members are habitually admitted to the club merely for the purpose of obtaining intoxicating liquor." That was inapplicable. "The club occupies premises in respect of which a licence has been refused within twelve months." That was applicable. "Persons habitually admitted as members without an interval of forty-eight hours between their time of election, etc." That would be applicable. "That the supply of liquors in the club is not under the control of the members of the committee." That might be applicable. So that there were only three grounds out of nine applicable to a first application for registration, or he would put it three cases out of ten. He submitted that, looking at the clause from a purely technical point of view, that was extraordinarily bad drafting. If the Government wanted to give reasons for the proposal, and he thought they ought to give reasons, they should put them in a separate clause which plainly and specifically defined them, and not leave it to be inferred from a consideration of the provisions of the Act of 1902 in order to ascertain whether they were applicable or not on the occasion of a first application for registration. But even if they took these provisions and read the words of the clause into the Act of 1902, which was intended for renewals, and not for first registration, then the intention of the Government would not be carried out. The words which they were going to put into the clause were the words of the Scottish Act as construed by the Solicitor-General, who said that there was no difference between them. He regarded them as being different, but

  1499
  he would take the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement that there was no difference. But the Committee should have been told that as regards first registration the Scottish Act was notoriously an inoperative farce, and the Government knew it, or if the Solicitor-General and the representatives of the Government did not know it, they ought to have known it. The magistrates of Glasgow found that the sections of the Scottish Act were inoperative, and last March they came in full deputation to the Secretary for Scotland on the subject. The provisions which he had enumerated had broken down, and he would tell them why. They were inserted while the Bill was passing through Committee, and possibly they did not receive all the careful consideration which they ought to have received. Practically, and to all intents and purposes, those provisions were the provisions of this section of the present Bill. Under those provisions it was held by the Courts of Scotland to be an absurdity both in common sense and in law to ask for the rejection of a club's first application for registration on the representation by some person who had, by way of paralepsis, a speculative objection as to what a club was or was not going to do. It was held that it was not only bad in common sense but bad in law, and the Courts of Scotland held that that objection on this ground was practically non-enforcible. As a matter of fact the Courts in Glasgow, in this matter of first applications, were to-day purely ministerial; they gave registration practically to every club that applied, unless there was some other cause which clearly showed that the application ought not to be granted. That was the complaint which the Scottish magistrates made to the Secretary for Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman replied that their representations would receive the earliest and most favourable consideration; yet here they found these same grounds of objection, which were cause of complaint, being embodied in the present Bill. This was the result of legislating in water-tight compartments. One Department of the Government apparently had no communication with another Department. Frankly, he was anxious that the provisions as to registration should be made effective.
  1500
  He was anxious that when a club made its first application for registration there should be inquiry in order to ascertain that it was a proper club to register. As regarded inquiry into the character of the persons who were going to make the application he thought that it was a good and proper provision. If they embodied these provisions in the subsection they would be, as they had been in the Scottish Act, absolutely ineffective and inoperative. They depended entirely on objections of a speculative character, a character which the Courts in Scotland had held was not legitimate, and could not be upheld. He respectfully asked the Solicitor-General and the Government if they were really anxious to have provisions applicable to a first application by a club for registration, to put them into a new subsection of their own, where they would really be effective. He begged to move.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 18, lines 23 and 24, to leave out the words 'registration or the.'"—(Mr. Mitchell-Thomson.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'registration' stand part of the clause."
  SIR S. EVANSsaid the hon. Member had left him in doubt at the end of his speech as to whether he was in favour of the particular provisions apart from the place in which they were in the Bill. They must adhere to the clause. They could not at this stage bring up a new clause to deal with registration in the first instance. It was absolutely necessary that there should be some such provision as this or else the Act in this matter would not achieve the good results that they hoped from it. The hon. Member wanted, apparently, the automatic registration of clubs, whatever they were, wherever they were, in whatsoever kind of premises they were—that was the effect of the Amendment.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The hon. and learned Gentleman must not misrepresent me. I said the last thing I desired was the automatic registration of clubs; I want an effective registration of clubs, and the provisions of this section will not give it.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid then he would not take up the time of the Committee in arguing. They were at one in their object and all he need say was that they could not bring up a clause of that
  kind but must adhere to the provisions proposed.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 212 Noes, 44. (Division List, No. 333.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Agnew, George William

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Mond, A.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Glover, Thomas

  Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kincard)

  Armitage, R.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Nicholls, George

  Astbury, John Meir

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Gurdon, Rt Hn. Sir W. Brampton

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Nuttall, Harry

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Partington, Oswald)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Bennett, E. N.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

  Brace, William

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Rees, J. D.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Higham, John Sharp

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Brigg, John

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Richardson, A.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Hodge, John

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Hogan, Michael

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hudson, Walter

  Robinson, S.

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Cameron, Robert

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Jowett, F. W.

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne

  Clough, William

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Sears, J. E.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Kelley, George D.

  Seddon, J.

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Seely, Colonel

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Shackleton, David James

  Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Lamont, Norman

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Cox, Harold

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Snowden, P.

  Crooks, William

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Lupton, Arnold

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Steadman, W. C.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Summerbell, T.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Marnham, F. J.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Ferens, T. R.

  Massie, J.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Middlebrook, William

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Toulmin, George

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Treveryan, Charles Philips

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Verney, F. W.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.

  Vivian, Henry

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton;

  Walker, H. De B. (Leicester)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Wood, T. McKinnon

  Walsh, Stephen

  Whittaker, Rt Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Walton, Joseph

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Wardle, George J.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Joseph Pease and Master of

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Elibank.

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Renwick, George

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hills, J. W.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Starkey, John R.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Whitbread, Howard

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Young, Samuel

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Nield, Herbert

  Younger, George

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Oddy, John James

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Gretton, John

  Rateliff, Major R. F.

  Mitchell-Thomson and Mr.

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Ashley.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 18, line 25, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and insert the word 'court.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. RAWLINSONmoved to omit from the subsection the words "as a drinking club," and to substitute "for the supply of excisable liquor." The effect of the Amendment would be to strengthen the subsection. Objection could be taken to any club on the ground that it was used or was to be used mainly as a drinking club. He pressed very strongly on the Government to give the exact idea of what they meant by a drinking club. It was an absolutely new expression so far as he knew, and existed in no Act of Parliament at present. It would be exceedingly difficult for any bench of magistrates to determine exactly what was meant. The expression which he proposed to insert existed in the Scottish and, he believed, in the Irish Act as well. The term "drinking club" was certainly a vague term exceedingly difficult of legal definition. It would probably to most lay minds include what was simply a place in its nature illegal—a shebeen or a place where drinking was allowed improperly or
  1504
  mala fide, or in some way evading excise, or something of the kind. "Mainly for the supply of excisable liquor" would be very much wider, and would include undoubtedly clubs which depended practically entirely for their revenue upon the sale of excisable liquor. The alteration of those words would make the clause much more easy to administer. A club supported mainly by supplying excisable liquor, and making all its profits from that sale, would immediately close its doors if the sale was stopped. Nobody could give a legal definition of a drinking club. He might anticipate a definition given by an hon. Member below the gangway and suggest that a drinking club was a place where more than half the revenue was derived from the sale of intoxicating liquors. He begged to move his Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 18, line 26, to leave out the words 'as a drinking club,' in order to insert the words 'for the supply of excisable liquor.'"—(Mr. Rawlinson.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  SIR S. EVANSsaid that there had been no paucity of Amendments to the

  1505
  various clauses of this Bill, and asked the Committee to note that if there had been any great difficulty about the term "drinking club" an Amendment would have been put down before now. The hon. and learned Member reminded him that he could not give a legal definition of the term. He admitted that. It was not possible for any human being to do so. It was not a question of law, but of fact, since whatever difficulty and vagueness existed turned on the word "mainly" and not on "drinking club," which was a question of fact. What was a club that existed mainly for the supply of excisable liquor?
  MR. RAWLINSON: That means that the bulk of its income is derived from profits on the sale of excisable liquor.
  SIR S. EVANS: What do you mean by bulk?
  MR. RAWLINSON: The major part of its income; that is, more than half.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid that if the hon. and learned Gentleman meant that, it was not his Amendment, but was the point that the Committee had already decided. Was it the policy of the party opposite to say that when a club made more than half its income out of its profits from the sale of excisable liquor it should be shut up?
  MR. RAWLINSONsaid that he was under a slight difficulty in answering the question, because on this question he had voted with the Government. He hoped he had kept an open mind throughout the whole of the debates to find out where justice lay, and whether the real intention of the Bill was temperance or an attack on the brewers. If the latter, he would not support the Government; but if the former, he would occasionally do so.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid there was not even the germ of an attack upon the brewers in this matter. If brewers created bogus clubs, of course they would come within the provisions of this clause. He had put his Amendment down to define drinking clubs, but that was a question with which a bench of justices would
  1506
  have no difficulty whatever in dealing. Supposing the hon. and learned Member were a stipendiary magistrate knowing all the circumstances, did he contend that he would not be able to make up his mind from the evidence whether the club was a drinking club or not? The mover of this Amendment had not given any explanation of the phrase "mainly for the supply of excisable liquor." There was no difference in meaning, in his view, between this Amendment and the word, proposed by the Government. The only difference was in the words; there was no difference in substance. He did not wish to prolong the discussion for any length of time, otherwise he would invite the hon. and learned Member to point out the difference between the two Amendments.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid that the Courts in Scotland had held that, so far as first registration was concerned, the question of what was or was not "a drinking club" was not a question of fact at all. It was unfortunate that the word "mainly" was used in the Scottish Act, but it came from the present Lord Advocate, and that right hon. Gentleman's party had never taken exception to it. He wanted to know why the Government had departed from the precedent and put in words concerning which there had been no definition.
  MR. RAWLINSONsaid his object had been served in raising the point. But the Government having before them the Scottish and the Irish Acts, had altered the words and brought in others. "Drinking club" was too vague, and indicated something of rowdyism, but an Amendment which said that a club existed mainly for the supply of excisable liquors brought in the question of profits made. He asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL, Yorkshire, Cleveland)moved an Amendment having for its object the inclusion in the grounds on which notices of objection may be lodged to the registration or the renewal of the

  1507
  registration of a club the ground "that the club is bound by any covenant, agreement, or undertaking, or is otherwise under an obligation to obtain a supply of any intoxicating liquor from any particular person, not being a club which was so bound or under such an obligation before the passing of this Act." The Amendment was one of some importance. It effected a large extension in the law relating to new clubs and to certain existing clubs. The Government had been quite alive from the beginning to the dangers that might arise after the passing of the Bill from the creation of clubs intended mainly for drinking purposes, and in order to safeguard the position, the Government proposed not only to provide that clubs which were mainly drinking clubs should not be registered and might be suppressed, but to prevent the creation of what might be called "tied clubs." Under the Act of 1902 it was provided that a club might be struck off the register if the supply of intoxicating liquor was not under the control of the members or a committee appointed by the members. But from many quarters it had been pointed out that that provision was not sufficient to prevent the abuse arising of persons engaged in the liquor industry fostering the creation and financing the operations of drinking clubs, in order to secure an additional outlet, for their products. The Government were anxious to adopt any suggestions that could be made for the strengthening of the club clauses in the Bill without causing undue interference with the amenities of properly conducted clubs. He believed that this proposal would not meet with opposition from any of the club representatives, and hoped that the Opposition, which had hitherto been endeavouring to induce the Government to weaken the club clauses, would on this occasion support them in an extension of them. The provision applied, not only where there was a legal covenant, but where there was some other understood obligation which bound a club to a particular brewer or distiller. It was not possible to go back on existing undertakings and to apply this clause to clubs which had been established in good faith, possibly with the assistance of some brewer, and which on the faith of the present law had entered into obligations and contracted debts.
  1508
  They were providing against the creation of new clubs by the brewers, and against existing clubs, which were not tied, becoming tied in the future. Some of his hon. friends had Amendments on the Paper which would tend to enlarge the scope of this provision, but after very careful consideration the Government were of opinion that it would be difficult to find any form of words which would enlarge the provision the Government had placed on the Paper without causing injustice and injury in other directions. His hon. friend the Member for North St. Pancras had given notice of an Amendment which only dealt with cases where clubs were owned or leased, but club premises might be mortgaged, or the furniture might be obtained on hire through a brewer, and an obligation created in that way. The hon. Member for East Northamptonshire proposed to add to the Amendment the words "or that any person or company engaged in the sale or manufacture of intoxicating liquor is either directly or indirectly proprietor of, or interested in the profits of, or finances such club." These words had an exceedingly wide signification. Take the case of men engaged in the brewing industry who were also the landlords of large estates. On these estates they might have built village clubs. These clubs might not be tied to a particular brewer, and yet by his hon. friend's Amendment they would be wiped out of existence unless the owner of the estate ceased his brewing business or sold the land and the premises of the club to an independent body or person. There were cases in which a club had issued debentures on its buildings, and one or more of the debentures might be held by a brewer or distiller, or wine merchant. It would surely be an extension far beyond the intention of Parliament to penalise a club in that position. After very careful consideration, and after testing many alternative forms of words, the Government had come to the conclusion that the Amendment was not insufficient to meet the needs of the case.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 18, line 29, at end, to insert the words 'on the ground that the club is bound by any covenant, agreement, or undertaking,

  1509
  or is otherwise under an obligation to obtain a supply of any intoxicating liquor from any particular person not being a club which was so bound or under such an obligation before the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted,"
  MR. ASHLEYsaid that although he had a great deal of sympathy with the Amendment, it seemed that if it was passed without modification they would do a certain amount of injury to the legitimate club. Supposing a club wished to make an agreement with a certain wine merchant to buy their liquor exclusively for a certain term of years, the club would probably be able to obtain far better terms than otherwise. Under the Amendment that would be absolutely prohibited. Therefore, he thought the Under-Secretary ought to introduce some modification to meet such a case. But even supposing he did, was the Amendment really necessary? Clause 28 of the 1902 Act provided that where a club had been registered in pursuance of that Act a Court of summary jurisdiction, on complaint in writing by any person might, if it thought fit, make an order directing the club to be struck off the register—and then there were certain grounds on which that might be done, the last of which was that the supply of intoxicating liquor to the club was not under the control of the members or a committee appointed, by the members. Surely that provision of the 1902 Act covered the very point the Committee was discussing.
  *SIR FRANCIS CHANNINGsaid he was not at all convinced that the Amendments standing in his name and that of the Member for St. Pancras were not essential to the object they had in view. The real issue which they had to face in this part of the Bill was that when they swept away large numbers of public-houses and turned loose on a neighbourhood many persons who had accustomed themselves to excessive indulgence in drink there was an overpowering motive for the brewers to employ their capital in two ways. First, it was only too easy to find clubs which were in financial difficulties and to advance large sums of money to them. He did not wish in the least to detract
  1510
  from the essential point covered by his hon. friend's Amendment. It was of vital importance to prevent the establishment of tied clubs, but he urged the Committee fully to consider the other point which he was laying before them. Brewing companies might go to such a club and say, "We will make your club a great success, we will advance money and make things attractive," and nothing would be more easy than to evade the more stringent provisions of the Bill, unless there was a specific prohibition of such a course of action on the part of the brewery companies. Otherwise they might put in illusory committees of management and run the whole affair under the guise of a club. That evil was not guarded against unless they introduced words distinctly prohibiting the employment of brewers' capital in that way. Of course, the same argument would apply to the creation of new clubs. He was well aware that many clubs were in a struggling and impecunious condition. They would be an easy prey of brewers who would be most anxious to manipulate them in order to enlarge the dividends of their companies. The hon. Member for East Somerset, who had also an Amendment on the Paper, had given him many illustrations of cases such as he had just described having been actually carried out by brewing companies within the last year or two even employing the compensation received under the Act of 1904 for this purpose. Although there might be some hardship on a go'f club or a charitable club on a large estate, he believed these could be provided for otherwise. The real evil which they had to face was that while they were sweeping away by the Bill a large number of public-houses, they were creating an irresistible tendency to brewing companies to capture existing clubs, or create new ones. In a Memorandum circulated by the secretary to the Working Men's Club and Institute Union, it was stated that the union welcomed the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Somerset and other Amendments to effect the same object so long as they were not made retrospective. He begged to move to add to the Amendment the following words: "or that any person or company engaged in the sale or manufacture

  1511
  of intoxicating liquor is either directly1 or indirectly proprietor of, or interested in the profits of, or finances such club."
  *THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid that an Amendment had been handed in which would come in before that of the hon. Baronet.
  *MR. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid he very much doubted whether the Amendment before the Committee would really carry out the intention of the Government. If he might venture to say so with respect, he did not think the Government understood the working of working men's clubs. If they inquired into the action of the tied clubs they would find that in only a comparatively small number of cases was there a covenant. The tie appeared in all sorts of ways. A number of workmen went to a licensed victualler or a brewer and said they proposed to start a club, and asked him to supply liquor up to a certain quantity. The drink was supplied and remained as a debt against the club. There was no covenant or obligation written or in terms, but they knew perfectly well that, if they ceased to deal with the person who had supplied the drink, that person would close upon them and the club would cease to exist. The question was whether such a transaction was covered by the expression "or otherwise under an obligation." He held that there was no legal obligation, but from a common-sense point of view, that club, which might be in debt to the person in sums varying from £20 to over £100, would still go to that person for their supplies of drink. Therefore, the Government had to go behind covenants, agreements, or undertakings, and consider all the circumstances which operated so as to take away free agency from the committee of the club in entering into a contract. It had been said that a club might find it convenient to enter into a contract with one wine merchant or brewer for the supply of liquor for a term of years, so that it might get its drink cheaper; but the difficulty was, could the Government devise a form of words to allow such contracts, but prohibit the tieing of clubs. He thought that the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire was much nearer the
  1512
  truth, and struck more accurately and definitely at the root of the evil than the words of the Government Amendment. He asked the Government to reconsider the question and deal with the obligation behind the formal obligation, deal with the circumstances which prevented committees of clubs from being free agents in ordering the drink consumed by their members.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid he could not help agreeing with the hon. Member for Leicester that this Amendment would not carry out the object of the Government. The Under-Secretary had told them that his Amendment had been very carefully considered by the Government, but even if that were so, he believed that it would do an injustice to the tie system. He belonged to a club which might or might not be mainly used for drinking purposes—the Carlton Club. That club habitually made agreements with tradesmen, and the National Liberal Club did the same—to acquire a certain class of wine which was sometimes not to be delivered for two or three years, but, in the interest of the club and not in the interest of the tyrannous wine merchant, a covenant was entered into that when the liquor was required the article should be duly delivered. The club entered into precisely similar agreements for the supply of meat and bread. What was the good of saying that the club should not enter into an agreement with a wine merchant to supply wine? Under the Amendment if the club entered into such an agreement with any person to obtain liquor, then anybody might go to a stipendiary magistrate, raise an objection against the club, and the club might be shut up and all the members of the committee of the Carlton might be fined. That was not intended, but that was the effect of the Amendment.
  SIR S. EVANS: No.
  LORD BALCARRES: Yes, if the Carlton Club entered into an agreement with a particular person to supply intoxicating liquor. He would not enter into the point raised by the hon. Member for Leicester. So far as his own experience went the point was quite good. They were, however, going to inflict hardships in the case of straight-forward

  1513
  bona fide transactions and at the same time were not going to carry out the intentions of the Government. He agreed with the interesting statement of an hon. Member opposite that the adoption of this Bill would lead to the immediate multiplication of new clubs.
  MR. MACLEANsaid he knew of the case of a club which was furnished by a brewer, and there was no obligation, covenant, agreement, or undertaking that the liquor for the club should be supplied by him. There was simply an understanding, and on the faith of that understanding the whole of the liquors used in that club were obtained from that brewer. He suggested to the Solicitor-General that in line 2 of the Amendment moved by the Under-Secretary the word "or" should be left out and after the word "undertaking," the words "or understanding" should be inserted. [An HON. MEMBER on the Opposition Benches: That's no use.] He suggested that such words as these would cover particular cases such as he had mentioned which occurred very often, and also the cases which were in the mind of the hon. Member for Leicester. He begged to move.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment proposed—
  "In line 2, to leave out the word 'or,' after the word 'agreement,' and to insert after the word 'undertaking' the words 'or understanding.'"—(Mr. Maclean.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'or' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  *MR. G. D. FABERsaid the Committee had arrived at rather a strange position, and the strangeness of it was caused by the fact that they were trying to do an impossible tiling. The Government wanted to prevent grown men, sane men, voters of this country, from making arrangements with any particular firm which they, of their own free will and accord, might wish to make. They could not do it whatever Amendment might be accepted by the House, and the people concerned would be able to drive a coach and four through the statute. While the panorama of this Bill had been slowly unfolded from day to day, and week to week, and he had had the honour of sitting there almost the whole time, one
  1514
  thing had become more and more clear to his mind, and that was that the desire for temperance on the part of the Government supporters had lessened, and the hatred of the brewer had increased, and perhaps to the hatred of the brewer he might add the hatred of the wine merchant. They knew that the human mind was very complex, and that sometimes a man might not be aware of the motives which were pushing him in a particular direction. He knew that there were a great many Members on the other side of the House who did genuinely desire to achieve temperance by means of this measure, but so complex, as he had said, was the human mind that as they on the one hand had not been able to achieve it and saw the Bill would not achieve it, they took refuge in an increased hatred of the person who supplied the drink. Surely hon. Members on the other side of the House wanted to do justice, and not simply and solely to run amok at the brewer or the supplier of intoxicating liquors. That was the effect of the Amendment. But working men's clubs did not purchase only intoxicating liquors. How about cigars and tobacco? How could a sensible Committee, which for the purpose of his argument he was willing to assume it was, say that a working men's club should not be "tied" to a brewer or a wine merchant but might be tied to the mineral water or the cigar merchant. The Amendment of the Under-Secretary for the Home Office did not even agree with the Minority Report of the Royal Commission. The Government had no right to injure any particular trade—the brewing trade or the wine merchants' trade—by saying that they should not be allowed to make agreements or arrangements to supply their liquors to the clubs of this country. He doubted very much whether it was of any possible advantage to the clubs, because after all, if they made an agreement with a particular firm they were not only able to get better treatment but they were very often able to get better liquor than if they bought from a number of firms instead of one. But on the larger point the Government could not treat working men's clubs in this country as if they were made up of children. There was no trust shown by the Government in

  1515
  their own Bill. They certainly did not trust each other. They did not trust the Opposition. They did not trust the licensing justices, and now they did not trust the working men's clubs to make their own bargains and supply themselves with intoxicating liquors from any quarter they pleased. The whole affair was being reduced to a farce. The Government were venturing on an impossible task, and in blindly trying to do mischief to a particular trade they were putting themselves in a ridiculous position.
  MR. W. R. REAsaid he ventured last night to suggest an Amendment on this very important question, and he was glad they had made a substantial advance on what was originally proposed. He looked upon this as one of the most important clauses of the Bill. It was absolutely vital to the principles they had at heart that this clause should be watertight, and that it should not be possible for clubs to make these bargains. The clause should be so carefully constructed that it should not be possible for the unlicensed club to take the place of the suppressed public-house. The Government had gone a very long way to meet the point he wished to put, in cutting a clear line between clubs which already existed and clubs which might be created in future with a view of evading the provisions of this Act. But they had only done that with respect to the "tied" club, and that did not cover all the evil, and he would show the Committee, as had teen done by the hon. Member for Leicester, and others, that it was easy to design a clause to cover all the cases which the Government desired to meet. He submitted they might attain the same end and achieve a much greater result if they would, instead of stating definitely that "tied" clubs were to be forbidden, state that in the case of all clubs created after the passing of this Act the magistrates, or whoever might be the registering authority, should have a very considerable discretion to say whether or not they would issue a licence. That would meet the case that had been raised in regard to "ties," and it would also enable them to meet other difficulties.
  VISCOUNT HELMSLEYasked whether it was in
  1516
  order for the hon. Member to argue generally when there was an Amendment before the Committee.
  THE CHAIRMANanswered in the negative, and said he thought the debate ought to be confined to the Amendment.
  MR. W. R. REAsaid it appeared to him that useful as that Amendment might be where "tied" institutions were concerned, the same end would be much better attained if, instead of putting definite words in the Bill, they were to leave the question to the discretion of the magistrates, but it should be an unfettered discretion.
  SIR E. CARSONthought they had a little reason to complain that an Amendment of this kind was only put on the Paper last night, because it would take away the opportunities they were to have had of discussing the Bill.
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid the Amendment was put down a day or two ago, and slightly altered last night.
  SIR E. CARSONsaid that that did not in the least affect the point. When the closure Resolution was passed they thought they had the matured Resolution of the Government, all the wisdom of the Under-Secretary and others who had been engaged for months in formulating this drastic proposal, but they had introduced that evening a great and broad proposal which really took away the opportunity of discussing the original Bill. Further than that, when they complained of this novel proposal they were told that the limited time originally fixed for Report was to be still further encroached upon. It was reducing the procedure of the House to an absolute farce. So far as the Bill itself was concerned, they were really compelled to employ the time given for its discussion not to the Bill, but to any proposition which any Member of the faddist section which supported the Government chose to put forward. He understood that the hon. and learned Gentleman was not going to accept the Amendment—at least he assumed that he was not going to ask a Court of justice or any other Court to tell them what was the "understanding." He had heard of contracts, agreements, and

  1517
  obligations, and of inquiries into contractual agreements, But inquiries into understandings he had never heard of. They would never get at a man's understanding. To put forward an Amendment of this kind was almost trifling with the Committee. What were the Government coming to when it was suggested that it should be put upon the Courts to inquire as to a man's understanding? The Amendment itself was difficult enough as he would be prepared to argue when this triviality was disposed of. He suggested that the ingenuity of hon. Members opposite, who were so anxious to get at the understanding of working men's clubs, the various actions of brewers' minds, and the peculiarities of the brains of those who sold and consumed intoxicating liquors, would be far better employed in bringing forward an honest Amendment such as "or on the ground that the club was accustomed to buy its liquor from any brewer or licensed publican." He offered that to hon. Gentlemen opposite as a real contribution to temperance. That would get rid of the whole difficulty, and no doubt would become extremely popular with hon. and right hon. Gentlemen like the hon. Member for Lincoln and the right hon. Member for the Spen Valley. He was not so sure that it would be so popular with the working men's co-operative societies, stores, and institutions of that kind. If in the short time that remained they were going to discuss questions of understanding, the whole of the provisions of the Bill as it originally stood would be left undiscussed. They should try and frame this clause in such a way as to get behind the right of the public to make such contracts as they pleased.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid the Government were always glad of the right hon. Gentleman's assistance, but, unfortunately, he had not thought fit to table such an Amendment as he had suggested on the subject with which the Committee were now dealing. But that was no reason why they should not attempt to deal with the question. The hon. Member for York had said it was both undesirable and impossible to deal with this matter. That was not so. Although difficult, there was a problem to deal with. That was obvious from the last subsection of the Act of 1904 to which the hon. Gentleman
  1518
  referred. Everybody knew that it was intended by that subsection to put some curb on the evil that might be created by the existence of "tied" clubs.
  SIR E. CARSONsaid the object of the subsection was to prevent a person keeping what he was pleased to call a club for his own profit. To distinguish a club from a public-house it was necessary that the members should provide for their own requirements, as they did in their private houses, and this subsection was to prevent a man from keeping a public-house and calling it a club. That was why the committee of control was put in.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid the evil that had to be grappled with was the evil of somebody being the proprietor of a club, and being able to bring pressure on the members to buy liquor of him. The hon. Member for York had said there was enough in the existing subsection to deal with that. That might be so, but it was acknowledged by everyone that the subsection having that intention in it had not been successful in thwarting the evil. The control mentioned in it did not mean legal control, and they had to go outside the subsection to obtain legal control. With regard to the Amendment, he would not like the word "understanding," but there must be some words. The words the Government had used were "or is otherwise under an obligation." The words, covenant, agreement and undertaking, all imparted a legal idea, but it was pointed out with great force by the hon. Member for Leicester that it was not every covenant, agreement, or undertaking, which ought to be dealt with. Some were genuine and bona fide, as was the case in regard to the Carlton Club which had been referred to, which bought its wine and had it delivered over a period of years. That should, of course, not be sufficient to take away the licence of the Carlton Club. He hoped the Committee would bear in mind that what the Government were doing here was to add another ground of objection only. They did not say that because there was a covenant, agreement, or undertaking, to buy liquor from a particular person, it should be impossible to register a club. That would be simply fatuous. Therefore, what they had done was to

  1519
  put in words so that the justices, if any objection was made by reason of the dealings of a club with regard to liquor, might either uphold or dismiss the objection as they thought fit. There must be some words, because it was perfectly obvious that if the evil could arise without any legal obligation, it could arise with, a legal obligation. If they found a covenant to deal exclusively with a brewer, it might be perfectly proper for the justices to take that into consideration in deciding whether they would register the club or not. Those words therefore must be put in. They were of legal importance. The Government, however, went outside the legal matters coming immediately under these words when they came to the next words "or is otherwise under an obligation." He knew of no way of being under an obligation in law other than an obligation arising out of a covenant, agreement, or undertaking. They therefore, in saying "or is otherwise under an obligation to obtain a supply," went outside the four corners of the legal obligation.
  SIR E. CARSON: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us what obligation there can be in an Act of Parliament except a legal obligation?
  SIR S. EVANSsaid it was not a question of creating an obligation by Act of Parliament.
  SIR E. CARSON: Have you any obligation except a legal one in an Act of Parliament?
  SIR S. EVANSsaid they were not creating an obligation in an Act of Parliament; they were dealing with an obligation entirely outside an Act of Parliament. The "control" contemplated in the Act of 1902 could not be a legal control; it was absolutely impossible. There was the same kind of idea in the word "control" as they intended to be expressed in the word "obligation."
  SIR E. CARSON: Give an instance of it.
  SIR S. EVANSsaid the "obligation" therefore was something outside a legal obligation. He thought the Committee or the great majority of the Committee was clearly of opinion that, circumstances under which, an obligation of that kind
  1520
  arose must be dealt with. Suppoisng a man was the mortgagee of a place, he had absolute control over it. He knew the mortgage could not be paid off and he knew he could foreclose at any time and become the absolute owner of the property. It was obvious there that there was a power of control, a power of exercising pressure upon the members of the club. That was the same kind of pressure referred to by the hon. Member for Leicester. Apart from the historic form of covenant they had in a mortgage, there might be other circumstances in which a man was the creditor and the club the debtor. In such a case they would have that kind of pressure put upon the committee which would make it impossible for them to get their drink elsewhere; and, to all intents and purposes, whatever the intention of the committee might be, that made it a proprietary club. The Government were not wedded to the words in the Amendment. They certainly could not adopt the words used by his hon. friend, and he would ask him to withdraw his Amendment, if he saw fit, in order that they might discuss the wider Amendment in the name of the Under-Secretary. What they wanted to do was to provide against the evil which arose from there being any thing in the nature of a proprietary interest or control, by reason of the existence of the state of debtor and creditor, but, with regard to the actual words, they were certainly not wedded to those proposed. He thought they carried out the object; but if there should be any others suggested from whatever quarter they would be perfectly prepared to consider them.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid there were very few minutes left in which to endeavour to effect a divorce between the Government and the words to which they said they were not welded, and to find some other words on which they might be more happily united. The Solicitor-General had asked his hon. friend to withdraw his Amendment, but he prefaced that request by reviewing the Government Amendment and justifying it by a reference to words which occurred at the end of the next subsection, and by wrapping up the whole defence in an interpretation he placed upon certain words in the Act of 1902.

  1521
  Under those circumstances perhaps he might be allowed, very briefly, to cover some portion of the field the Solicitor-General had traversed. His only plausible defence was that the words in the previous Act—
  "That the supply of intoxicating liquor to a club is not under the control of the members or committee appointed by the members—"
  really covered, if properly interpreted, the Amendment for which the Government was responsible. That was a ground of objection which the framers of the Act of 1902 thought a valid ground, and, as his hon. and learned friend had explained, those words appeared in that Act in order that the club, and the committee of the club, should be the parties considered and not a single individual occupying the position of a publican who was the tenant of a house. The Solicitor-General had put another interpretation on the words. The Government Amendment directed legislation not against a club in which one person acted as the proprietor and in which the members were not concerned, but against the members of a club and their committee regularly elected. That was the distinction. The only plausible defence, therefore, which the Solicitor-General had put forward, viz., that the words in the Act of 1902 covered his, might, he thought, be swept away; and they had to consider his action in its naked simplicity without the gauze drawn from their own legislation. The action contemplated by the Government was that the real club, the bona fide members and their committee regularly elected, were to be subjected to the annoyance year after year, of interpolation by any person residing in any part of the United Kingdom. The Solicitor-General said that the club members and the committee might have an objection lodged against them by anybody if the club members and their committee had entered into any covenant, agreement, or undertaking. It followed that if they had entered into any of these contracts, which he thought were perfectly legal and proper, they would still be subjected to this annoyance. If they had undertaken to buy their beer for six months from any brewer, it would, under the Amendment, be open to anybody living in any part of England to lodge an objection against the bona fide
  1522
  members of the club and their committee properly elected. But he put it forward, as a speculation—he quoted the hon. Gentleman's words—that "nobody would object on that ground." Were they to depend upon that? Were the members of every workmen's club in England to depend upon the opinion of the Solicitor-General that nobody in England would ever advance an objection because they had entered into a contract with a brewer? That was the very reason on which the strict objector advanced his objection. Why, when he had that objection presented to him in an Act of Parliament, should he search further afield? Here was his strict case. He could go forward every time and say the club had broken a provision of the Licensing Act by entering into a covenant or agreement. The Solicitor-General was not satisfied with that. He wished to add further words—not the word "understanding"—words not yet devised, which would give the strict objector a wider field for harrassing interference with the social centres of the working classes on the ground that the bona fide members of any workmen's club and the committee elected by them, had entered into a contract for some part of the provisions they required.
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid that hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to think it was utterly impracticable to attempt in any way to prevent the system of tied clubs, and, not only impracticable, but a gross interference with the liberty of grown men to prevent them entering into any contract they pleased. He gathered that the view of the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken and the right hon. and learned Gentleman beside him was that the words in the Act of 1902 "that the supply is not under the control" were not intended to aim at the system of tied clubs, but he found, on reference to Hansard, that Mr. Ritchie, in moving the Amendment, used the following words—
  "The object of the Amendment standing in his name was simply to deal with the clubs established simply for the sale of liquor and for the purpose of profit to those who supplied the liquor."
  That was the purpose also of their Amendment. A point had been raised by the hon. Member for Manchester and other

  1523
  Members, and it needed to be met. They said that ordinary contracts to purchase might be believed to come within the meaning of the clause. Of course, that was not by any means the intention of the clause. They wished to deal with what might be called the tied club, and not the free club. Both might have a contract to purchase, but in the case of the tied club, besides the mere sale of liquor there was the tie; there was an understanding, an obligation, other and beyond the ordinary contract to purchase liquor for the supply of members. In order to meet that point words would be placed upon the Paper before the next stage to make it quite clear that the application of the clause was only in a case where the club was constrained to purchase liquor by the fact that the supplier of liquor had a proprietary interest in the club, or was a creditor of the club, or words to that effect.
  SIR E. CARSON: May I ask when we shall see the words?
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: At the earliest possible moment; probably the day after the Committee stage is over.
  MR. MACLEANasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Leave refused.
  Amendment to proposed Amendment negatived.
  And, it being half-past Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, in pursuance of the Order of the House of 17th July, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 299; Noes, 88. (Division List No. 334.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cameron, Robert

  Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Glover, Thomas

  Agnew, George William

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Clough, William

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Clynes, J. R.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Armitage, R.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Gulland, John W.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

  Astbury, John Meir

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendal

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Hardie, J. Keir (Metrhyr Tydvil)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Cox, Harold

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Crooks, William

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Crossley, William J.

  Harwood, George

  Beale, W. P.

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Bennett, E. N.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Bethell Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Brace, William

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Brigg, John

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Bright, J. A.

  Erskine, David C.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Essex, R. W.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Hodge, John

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Fenwick, Charles

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Ferens, T. R.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Hudson, Walter

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Findlay, Alexander

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Byles, William Pollard

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Johnson, John (Gateshead

  Nuttall, Harry

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Stanley, Albert (Stalls, N. W.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Grady, J.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Partington, Oswald

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Kekewich, Sir George.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leck)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Kelley, George D.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Perks, Sir Robert William

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Summerbell, T.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Lamont, Norman

  Pollard, Dr.

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Radford, G. H.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Toulmin, George

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lyell, Chares Henry

  Rees, J. D.

  Verney, F. W.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Vivian, Henry

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Macdonald J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Richardson, A.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Maclean, Donald

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Walton, Joseph

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Ward W. Dudley (Southampton

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

  M'Callum, John M.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Robinson, S.

  Watt, Henry A.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Roc, Sir Thomas

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rose, Charles Day

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Massie, J.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Menzies, Walter

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Middlebrook, William

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Scott, A. H. (Ashtonunder Lyne

  Williamson, A.

  Mond, A.

  Sears, J. E.

  Wilson, Hon. G. C. (Hull, W.)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Seddon, J.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Seely, Colonel

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Morrell, Philip

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Wodehouse, Lord

  Myer, Horatio

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Napier, T. B.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Nicholls, George

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Snowden, P.

  Mr. Joseph Pease and Master

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  of Elibank.

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balcarres, Lord

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. T. (City Lond.)

  Cave, George

  Gretton, John

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Harris, Frederick Lovorton

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Cross, Alexander

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Hill, Sir Clement

  1526

  1527

  Hills, J. W.

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Nield, Herbert

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Oddy, John James

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Valentia, Viscount

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Percy, Earl

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Farcham

  Ratclilf, Major R. F.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Ronton, Leslie

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

  Renwick, George

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Young, Samuel

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Younger, George

  MacCaw, William, J. MacGeagh

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Stanier, Beville

  Mr. George Faber and Mr.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Starkey, John R.

  Evelyn Cecil.

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  The CHAIRMAN then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Question on the Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded this day.
  Amendments proposed—
  "In page 18, line 31, to leave out from the word 'the,' to end of subsection, and to insert the word 'Court.'"
  "In page 18, line 36, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'"
  "In page 18, line 39, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
  "In page 19, line 3, to leave out the word 'such,' and to insert the words 'a specified.'"
  "In page 19, lines 3 and 4, to leave out the words 'not exceeding.' and to insert the words 'which may extend to twelve months in the case of the first order made in respect of any premises and to.'"
  "In page 19, line 4, to leave out the words 'as they think lit to direct," and to insert the words' in the case of ft second or any subsequent order made in respect of the same premises.'"—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
  "In page 19, line 4, to leave out the words 'justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'"
  "In page 19, line 8, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'"
  "In page 19, line 9, to leave out the words 'the same.'"
  "In page 19, line 9, to leave out from the word 'manner' to the word 'and,' in line 11, and to insert the words 'provided by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts.'"
  "In page 19, line 14, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the words 'Court from which the appeal is made.'"
  "In page 19, line 14, at end, to insert the words 'During the pendency of any appeal under this provision against an order upholding an objection to the renewal of the registration of a club, the operation of the order shall be suspended.'"
  In page 19, line 15, to leave out the words 'licensing justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'"
  "In page 19, line 16, to leave out the word 'justices,' and to insert the word 'Court.'"
  "In page 19, line 18, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words 'without delay.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 306; Noes, 92. (Division List No. 335.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Beale, W. P.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Agnew, George William

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devon p'rt

  Cameron, Robert

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Bennett, K. X.

  Carr-Gomm. H. W.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Armitage, R.

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Brace, William

  Clough, William

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Brigg, John

  Clynes, J. R.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Bright, J. A.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Barnes, G. N.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Cox, Harold

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Radford, G. H.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Crossley, William J.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Jowett, F. W.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Rees, J. D.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Kelley, George D.

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Richardson, A.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Lamont, Norman

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Robinson, S.

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Erskine, David C.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Essex, R. W.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rose, Charles Day

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lynch, H. B.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Kerens, T. R.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Samuel, Herbert, L. (Cleveland)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Mackarness, Frederie C.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Maclean, Donald

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Sears, J. E.

  Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Seddon, J.

  Glover, Thomas

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Seely, Colonel

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Shackleton, David James

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gulland, John W.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Massie, J.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Masterman, C. F. J.

  Snowden, P.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Menzies, Walter

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Middlebrook, William

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Mond, A.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Harwood, George

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Stewart, Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Morrell, Philip

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kineard.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Myer, Horatio

  Summerbell, T.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Napier, T. B.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nicholls, George

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Henry, Charles S.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  O'Grady, J.

  Thorne, G. K. (Wolverhampton)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Hodge, John

  Partington, Oswald

  Toulmin, George

  Hooper, A. G.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Yerney, F. W.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Pearce, William (Limchouse)

  Vivian, Henry

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Perks, Sir Robert William

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Hudson, Walter

  Pickersgill, Kdward Hare

  Walters, John Tudor

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walton, Joseph

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Pollard, Dr.

  Ward W. Dudley (Southampton

  1530

  1531

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Wodehouse, Lord

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Williamson, A.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Mr. Joseph Pease and Master

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  of Elibank.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gardner, Ernest

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Oddy, John James

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gretton, John

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Guinness, Hn. R. (Haggerston)

  Percy, Earl

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Renton, Leslie

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hill, Sir Clement

  Renwick, George

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hills, J. W.

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Hunt, Rowland

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Kerry, Earl of

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Stanier, Beville

  Bull, Sir William James

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Starkey, John R.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Cave, George

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Clive, Percy Archer

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Cross, Alexander

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Young, Samuel

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Younger, George

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Nield, Herbert

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Viscount Valentia.

  Clause 38 disagreed to.
  Clause 39:
  Amendments proposed—
  "In page 19, line 36, to leave out the words 'the secretary of a club.'"
  "In page 19, line 39, to leave out the word 'the,' and to insert the word 'a.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 19, line 39, after the word 'club,' to insert the words 'every member of the committee of the club.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 303: Noes 91. (Division List No. 336.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barnard, E. B.

  Brigg, John

  Adkins, W. Ryland P.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Bright, J. A.

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Agnew, George William

  Beale, W. P.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Beauchamp, E.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Armitage, R.

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Bennett, E. N.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Astbury, John Meir

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Byles, William Pollard

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Cameron, Robert

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Brace, William

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  O'Grady, J.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Hodge, John

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Clough, William

  Hooper, A. G.

  Partington, Oswald

  Clynes, J. R.

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Perks, Sir Robert William

  Compton-Hickett. Sir J.

  Hudson, Walter

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Pollard, Dr.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central

  Cox, Harold

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Radford, G. H.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Crossley, William J.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Searboro'

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Rees, J. D.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Kelley, George D.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Richardson, A.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lamont, Norman

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Dickson Poynder, Sir John P.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Robinson, S.

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Erskine, David C.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Essex, R. W.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Rose, Charles Day

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Searisbrick, T. T. L.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Maclean, Donald

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Sears, J. E.

  Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrow, W.)

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Seddon, J.

  Glover, Thomas

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Seely, Colonel

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Shackleton, David James

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Marnham, F. J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gulland, John W.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

  Massie, J.

  Simon, John Allsebrrook

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rosseadale

  Menzies, Walter

  Sineaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Snowden, P.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Middlebrook, William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Mond, A.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

  Harwood, George

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Morrell, Philip

  Stewart, Halley (Grcenock)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Stewart-Smith D. (Kendal)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Myer, Horatio

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Napier, T. B.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Summerbell, T.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Nicholls, George

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Nuttall, Harry

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  1534

  1535

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Toulmin, George

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  White, Luke (York. E. R.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Verney, F. W.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wodehouse, Lord

  Vivian, Henry

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Wood, T. M. Kinnon

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Walsh, Stephen

  Wiles, Thomas

  Walters, John Tudor

  Wilkic, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Walton, Joseph

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Joseph Pease and Master

  Ward, W. Dudley (South'mpt'n

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  of Elibank.

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

  Williamson, A.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Oddy, John James

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

  Percy, Earl

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gretton, John

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Balcarres, Lord

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Renton, Leslie

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Renwick, George

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Hadges, A. Paget

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Hill, Sir Clement

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hills, J. W.

  Stanier, Beville

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Houston, Bobert Paterson

  Starkey, John R.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hunt, Rowland

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Bull, Sir William James

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Lyttelton, Rt Hon. Alfred

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Young, Samuel

  Cross, Alexander

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Younger, George

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Morpeth, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Cave and Mr. Salter.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Nield, Herbert

  Amendments proposed—
  "In page 19, line 40, to leave out the word 'twenty,' and to insert the words 'five pound in the case of a first offence, and in the case of a second or any subsequent offence whether in connection with the same or any other club ten.'"
  "In page 20, line 5, to leave out the word 'secretary, and to insert the words 'any person.'"
  "In page 20, line 5, at end, to add the words '(2) Section 25 of the Licensing Act, 1902, shall be read as if the names of the committee were included amongst the particulars
  to be registered mentioned in subsection (2) of that section.'"
  "In page 20, line 5, at end, to add the words 'Provided that the aggregate amount of the fines imposed for the same offence under this section shall not exceed twenty pounds.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 299; Noes, 88. (Division List No. 337.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Agnew, George William

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Armitage, R.

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Astbury, John Meir

  Findlay, Alexander

  Maclean, Donald

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  M'Callum, John M.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Glen-Goats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Glover, Thomas

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Beale, W. P.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Gulland, John W.

  Massie, J.

  Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

  Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Menzies, Walter

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Bennett, E. N.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Middlebrook, William

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'd)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Mond, A.

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Brace, William

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Brigg, John

  Warvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Morrell, Philip

  Bright, J. A.

  Harwood, George

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Myer, Horatio

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Napier, T. B.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nicholls, George

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Byles, William Pollard

  Henry, Charles S.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Donnell. C. J. (Walworth)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  O'Grady, J.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Higham, John Sharp

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Partington, Oswald

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Clough, William

  Hodge, John

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Clynes, J. R.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Perks, Sir Robert William

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Compton Rickett, Sir J.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Hudson, Walter

  Pollard, Dr.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Cox, Harold

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Radford, G. H.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

  Crossley, William J.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Rees, J. D.

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Jowett, F. W.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th)

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Richardson, A.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Kelley, George D.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'd)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Lamont, Norman

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Robinson, S.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Rose, Charles Day

  Erskine, David C.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Essex, R. W.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  1538

  1539

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Summerbell, T.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne

  Sutherland, J. E.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Scars, J. E.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Seddon, J.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Seely, Colonel

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Shackleton, David James

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Williamson, A.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Toulmin, George

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Verney, F. W.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Snowden, P.

  Vivian, Henry

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Walsh, Stephen

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Walton, Joseph

  Wodehouse, Lord

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

  Wood, T. M Kinnon

  Steadman, W. C.

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Watt, Henry A.

  Joseph Pease and Mr.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Herbert Lewis.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Nield, Herbert

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Gardner, Ernest

  Oddy, John James

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peekham)

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gretton, John

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond)

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

  Renton, Leslie

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Renwick, George

  Baring, Capt. Hn G. (Winchester)

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hill, Sir Clement

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hills, J. W.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanier Beville

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hunt, Rowland

  Starkey, John R.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Kerry, Earl of

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Bull, Sir William James

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Cave, George

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacCaw, William J. Macgeagh

  Young, Samuel

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Younger, George

  Cross, Alexander

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Viscount Valentia.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Clause 10:
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 20, line 20, at end, to add the words '(2) During the pendency of any appeal against an order made under Section 28 of the Licensing Act, 1902, directing a club to be struck off the register, the operation of the order shall be suspended.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
  MR. STANLEY WILSON: On a point of order, may I ask you what the word "pendency" means?
  *THE CHAIRMAN: My duties as Chairman are sufficiently onerous without being asked to define words.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 297; Noes, 84. (Division List No. 338.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

  Agnew, George William

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Kelley, George D.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Armitage, R.

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Erskine, David C.

  Lamont, Norman

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Essex, R. W.

  Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Baring, Godfrey, (Isle of Wight

  Fenwick, Charles

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lupton, Arnold

  Barnard, E. B.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Barnes, G. N.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Beale, W. P.

  Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

  Glover, Thomas

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Maclean, Donald

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Gooch, George Pea body (Bath)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  M'Callum, John M.

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Crae, Sir George

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Gurdon, Rt Hn. Sir W. Brampt'n

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Brace, William

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Brigg, John

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Bright, J. A.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Massie, J.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Menzies, Walter

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Harwood, George

  Middlebrook, William

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mond, A.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Morrell, Philip

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kincard.

  Clough, William

  Henry, Charles S.

  Myer, Horatio

  Clynes, J. R.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Napier, T. B.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Nicholls, George

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras W.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Hodge, John

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Grady, J.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Cox, Harold

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Partington, Oswald

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hudson, Walter

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Crooks, William

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Crossley, William J.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Perks, Sir Robert William

  Curran, Peter Francis

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Walton, Joseph

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

  Radford, G. H.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Snowden, P.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Rees, J. D.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Stanger, H. Y.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

  Richardson, A.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Robinson, S.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Summerbell, T.

  Williamson, A.

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton

  Wodehouse, Lord

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Toulmin, George

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Sears, J. E.

  Verney, F. W.

  Joseph Pease and Mr.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Vivian, Henry

  Herbert Lewis.

  Seddon, J.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Seely, Colonel

  Walsh, Stephen

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gardner, Ernest

  Nield, Herbert

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gretton, John

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Renton, Leslie

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.

  Renwick, George

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hill, Sir Clement

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford. East)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hills, J. W.

  Stanier, Beville

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Starkey, John R.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hunt, Rowland

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cave, George

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Young, Samuel

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Younger, George

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Viscount

  Cross, Alexander

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Valentia and Lord

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Balcarres.

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Morrison-Bell, Captain

  Committee report progress; to sit again To-morrow.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 31st July,
  1544
  adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at twenty-eight minutes before Twelve o'clock.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 4161. Bahrain Islands, 1907–1908.
  No. 4163. Russia (Budget Report for 1908).

  HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPTS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Report on Manuscripts in Various Collections, Vol. VI.: The Manuscripts of Miss M. Eyre Matcham, Captain H. V. Knox, Mrs. Wykeham-Martin, etc.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877.
  Statute made by the Governing Body of Christ Church, Oxford, on 25th June, 1908, amending Statute XVI., Clause 9, of the Statutes of the House. Statute made by the Governing Body of All Souls College, Oxford, on 4th July, 1908, and sealed on 11th July, 1908, altering and amending Statute III., Clause 7, of the Statutes of the College.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. [No. 221.]

  LAW OF DISTRESS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Order of the Day, for the House being again put into Committee, read.
  LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITH: My Lords, in moving that the House do again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, perhaps it might be convenient for me to recall how the case stands. It will be within the recollection of some of your Lordships that when the Bill was last in Committee a number of Amendments stood on the Paper in the name of the noble and learned Earl opposite, Lord Halsbury. Your Lordships agreed, on the Motion of the noble and learned Earl, to strike out important words which stood in the first part of Clause 1, but you did not proceed to put in the words which the noble and learned Earl
  1350
  recommended for your acceptance, because at that moment I interposed and said that after the Vote which had been taken it might be desirable to consider whether it would be worth while to proceed further with the Bill. I, thereupon, moved that the House resume. It is, however, felt by the promoters that the Bill, even with the acceptance of the noble and learned Earl's Amendments, would still be worthy of being placed on the Statute-book, and I therefore desire to proceed with it. I shall, of course, be willing to accept the first Amendment standing in the name of the noble and learned Earl, which your Lordships have in effect approved by the Amendment to which you agreed on the former occasion.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(Lord Courtney of Penwith.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  [The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:
  THE EARL OF HALSBURYexplained that the Amendment to which the Committee agreed on the last occasion was in Clause 1, page 1, line 6, to leave out the words "any under-tenant, lodger, or other person not being the immediate tenant of such superior landlord." The Amendment which he now moved was really the complement of what the Committee then did, the object of omitting the words in (question being to insert those standing in his name on the Paper.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 1, line 6, to insert the words '(a) Any under tenant liable to pay by equal instalments not less often than every actual or customary quarter of a year a rent which would return in any whole year the full annual value of the premises or of such part thereof as is comprised in the under tenancy; or (b) any lodger; or (e) any other person whatsoever not being a tenant of the premises or of any part thereof, and not having any beneficial interest in any lease, under-lease or tenancy of the premises or of any part thereof.—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBURN)asked whether his noble and learned friend meant to include all the words in the proposed Amendment. He understood that on the last occasion the noble and learned Earl stated that he did not press for the inclusion of the words "by equal instalments not less often than every actual or customary quarter of a year." Those words were unnecessary, as it could make no difference whether a man paid his rent half-yearly or quarterly. If the amendment of the law was good at all, it was surely unnecessary to depend upon the distinction whether the rent was paid twice a year or four times a year.
  THE EARL OF HALSBURYsaid his noble and learned friend was mistaken in thinking that he had expressed any acquiescence in the words in question being omitted. On the contrary, he regarded the words as important for the protection of the superior landlord.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Consequential Amendments agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2:
  Consequential Amendments agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3:
  Consequential Amendments agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4:
  THE EARL OF HALSBURYmoved the addition of words to provide that the Bill should not apply to any live stock to which Section 29 of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, applied. He thought the purpose of this Amendment would be obvious.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 11, after the word 'thereof' to insert the words 'nor to any live stock to which Section 29 of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, applies.'"—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
  LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITHsaid that when the Bill was drafted the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, had not been passed, and therefore could not have been included. He accepted the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITHexpressed his readiness to accept the Amendment standing in the name of Lord Avebury, and in the absence of his noble friend he would himself move it. The Amendment did not interfere with the principle of the Bill, but provided for circumstances under which the undertenant and the tenant were associated together, so that one might be reasonably supposed to be acquainted with the tenancy of the other.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 11, after the word 'thereof,' to insert the following new subsection: '(2) (a) To goods of a partner of the immediate tenant; (b) to goods (not being goods of a lodger) upon premises where any trade or business is carried on in which both the immediate tenant and the under tenant have an interest; (c) to goods (not being goods of a lodger) on premises used as offices or warehouses where the owner of the goods neglects for one calendar month after notice (which shall be given in like manner as a notice to quit) to remove the goods and vacate the premises; (d) to goods belonging to and in the offices of any company or corporation on premises, the immediate tenant whereof is a director or officer, or in the employment of such company or corporation; (e) to goods of an under tenant (not being a lodger) who shall have become a tenant of premises without the consent of the superior landlord contrary to any lease or agreement under which the immediate tenant holds. Provided that it shall be competent for a stipendiary magistrate, or where there is no stipendiary magistrate, for two justices upon application by the under tenant or other person not being the immediate tenant of the superior landlord upon hearing the parties to determine whether any premises are in fact premises covered by (2) of this section.'"—(Lord Courtney of Penwith.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  THE EARL OF HALSBURYmoved the insertion of a new clause, which, he thought, would commend itself to the noble Lord in charge of the Bill. It was only to provide that the new system of

  1353
  distress should not apply to an under-tenancy which had been created contrary to the contract between the landlord and his immediate tenant.
  Amendment moved—
  "After Clause 4, to insert the following new clause: 5. This Act shall not apply to any under tenant, not being a lodger, where the under tenancy has been created in breach of any covenant or agreement in writing between the landlord and his immediate tenant, or where the under tenancy has been created contrary to the wish of the landlord in that behalf, oppressed in writing and delivered at the premises within a reasonable time after the circumstances have come, or with due diligence would have come, to his knowledge."—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 5:
  Consequential Amendments agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
  LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITHmoved the insertion of a new clause after Clause 7.
  Amendment moved—
  "After Clause 7, to insert the following new clause: 8. In this Act the words 'superior landlord' shall be deemed to include a landlord in cases where the goods seized are not those of an under tenant or lodger; and the words 'other person not being the immediate tenant of such superior landlord' shall be deemed to include a person having no interest in the land.'"—(Lord Courtney of Penwith.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORexpressed the hope that Lord Courtney would, before the next stage, reconsider the wording of this proposed new clause. He reminded the Committee that the Bill had been completely redrafted in their Lordships' House, with the object of avoiding deeming this and deeming that and all the horrors associated with legislation by reference. Yet this new clause provided that the words "superior landlord" should be deemed to include a landlord in cases where the goods seized were not those of an under tenant or lodger, and that the words "other person not being the immediate tenant
  1354
  of such superior landlord" should be deemed to include a person having no interest in the land. Surely this clause was a champion at deeming something to be that which it was not. He hoped the drafting would be reconsidered.
  THE EARL OF HALSBURYentirely concurred with the criticism of his noble and learned friend.
  LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITHsaid that the point now raised was different from that to which the attention of their Lordships was called on the former occasion. What was then complained of was legislation by reference, which made it necessary, in order to understand what was aimed at, to read one or more other Acts of Parliament. But, as the Bill now stood, there was no reference to any document outside the Bill itself. The proposed new clause which he had moved was due, he was afraid, to the imperfection of the English language, which made it impossible by the use of ordinary words to give full effect to what was designed. In order to do this it was necessary to enlarge in the way proposed the ordinary interpretation of the words landlord and tenant. He would, however, give attention to the matter before the next stage of the Bill.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 8:
  LORD ATKINSONmoved an Amendment providing that the Bill should not apply to Ireland. He held that the operation and effect of the Bill would be wholly mischievous in Ireland in view of the great agrarian revolution that was going on there. The Bill was not confined to urban tenancies. If that were possible, it might not be so objectionable. The Bill extended to all tenancies, and, so far as he knew, was neither required nor desired in Ireland, and was unsuitable to the conditions in that country. The main effect of the Bill, as he understood it, was to confine the remedy of the landlord to distraint on the goods of the immediate tenant, and the whole value of distress for rent now was that

  1355
  the landlord could seize any goods on the demised premises. The noble Lord in charge of the Bill had said on the previous occasion that the landlord had his right of re-entry. What would be said if a man who hired a horse and carriage, a motor or a piano, retorted to the person from whom he hired, on being applied to for payment, "My dear sir, I won't pay you; I have an objection to doing so, but I will hand you back your property, and you are very lucky to get it"? Did the noble Lord know what the right of reentry meant in Ireland? He had heard it said that getting a tenant out of possession in Ireland was more difficult than drawing a badger. A very large majority of the tenancies in Ireland were tenancies from year to year, and he was confident that noble Lords from Ireland would agree that there was no ejectment brought in that country that did not practically mean the loss of two years rent. Did the noble Lord in charge of the Bill regard that as a satisfactory remedy? A landlord, no more than any other man, could maintain himself and his family on the right of re-entry. What he wanted was his rent. In the greater part of Ireland the Bill would put a premium upon dishonesty, because, as a rule, the tenant had no capital that could be seized or got at save his stock, and if he chose to get rid of his stock, he could absolutely defy the landlord, at all events for eighteen months. But his real objection was that it discredited the whole process of distress on the goods on the premises. His noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor had objected, on the former occasion, to what he described as "Robbing Peter to pay Paul;" but they might be perfectly certain that if Peter was saved from this plunder in the case of landlord and tenant, he would not submit to it in other matters. There was not at the present time a single public charge upon land as to which the Legislature had not thought it necessary to provide that the proceeds should be recoverable as rent by distress. By an Act of 6 & 7 Will. IV. this was provided as one of the means for the recovery of county cess; and when the Tithe Rent Charge Act was passed and tithes were commuted for a rent
  1356
  charge, one of the modes of recovery was by distress in the same way as rent. The same thing applied in regard to a number of other public charges, and it was very peculiar that the various Acts in which this policy was recognised were passed by great Liberal statesmen — Lord Melbourne, Lord Russell and Mr. Gladstone. The purchase annuities under the Purchase of Land Act, for instance, were recoverable by distress, and it was most unwise and impolitic, when there were now outstanding loans for £50,000,000 or £60,000,000, and would be, he trusted, loans for, perhaps, £100,000,000 more, to deprive the State of one single remedy for the recovery of those annuities. Tenants in Ireland had paid the annuities with praiseworthy regularity. The State had suffered no loss. This by no means meant that occasionally these parsons had not been in default; but, happily, when they were in default no difficulty was experienced in selling them out and paying the arrears out of the proceeds. It would be well to retain the power to enable the officer of the State to seize the goods on a purchased farm; the purchasing tenant should be convinced that the payment of the annuity was inevitable. People were not so dull in Ireland that they would consent to be "robbed" to pay money to the English Exchequer, if they were not to be "robbed" to pay the landlord his rent. The rights of lodgers were protected under the Landlord and Tenant Act of 1860. The landlord could call upon a sub-tenant to pay his rent in discharge of the rent due from the immediate tenant; in addition to that, under Section 21, the sub-tenant could volunteer to pay to the head landlord, in discharge of the rent due to that head landlord by the immediate tenant, the rent which he (the sub-tenant) had contracted to pay to his immediate landlord. He had, therefore, ample power to protect himself, and that Act had been read to extend to any person who had lawful possession of the land. Therefore there was no difficulty in a sub-tenant ascertaining, on coming in, whether the rent of his landlord was due or not; and, if due, he could adopt the wise course of discharging it himself.

  1357
  The Bill, therefore, was not called for in Ireland, and the only people it would serve were dishonest people.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 27, after the word 'Scotland,' to insert the words' or Ireland.'"—(Lord Atkinson.)
  LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITHconfessed he did not feel competent to follow the noble and learned Lord over his wide field of controversy. He regretted that it should be necessary to make any exceptions, but recognised that circumstances might require such exceptions in Ireland. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord would be content with the Amendment of which Lord Clonbrock had given notice, to the effect that—
  "Nothing in this Act contained shall affect the law of distress in Ireland in relation to farming implements, crops, horses, cattle, sheep, or live stock of any description."
  That Amendment would cut out ordinary agricultural tenancies. Another reason why Ireland should not be cut out of the Bill altogether was that the Lodgers Protection Act, although repealed by this Bill, would, if Ireland were exempted from this Bill, have to remain on the Statute-book because of its application to Ireland, and for that reason alone. But if the noble and learned Lord would be satisfied with Lord Clonbrock's Amendment, the Lodgers Act could be completely repealed.
  LORD ATKINSONdid not think the words of Lord Clonbrock's Amendment adequate. That Amendment did not confine the Bill to urban holdings. If agricultural holdings were placed outside the purview of the Bill, many of his objections would not apply.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORallowed that there were ample precedents for exceptional treatment of Ireland and suggested that the form of words should be deferred to the Report stage. When on a former occasion he said, "You should not rob Peter to pay Paul," it might be he was enunciating a doctrine that might be used in Ireland in the interests of disorder, but they had travelled a long way if a proposition justified by the Decalogue would have
  1358
  such effect. He adhered to the general doctrine that one person's goods should not be taken to satisfy the debts of another unless wrong was done by the person whose property was taken. The policy he had advocated and which involved a departure from existing law had not in its entirety found favour with their Lordships, but he desired to dissociate himself from the idea that he in any way wished to prevent the recovery of a just debt by one man from another; but the recovery should not be at the expense of a third person.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I am glad to notice that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is inclined to meet my noble and learned friend behind me, to some extent, at all events, on this point; and if we are to choose between the Amendment which stands in the name of Lord Clonbrock and that which stands in the name of my noble and learned friend behind me, I have no objection whatever to reserve judgment until the further stage of the Bill. But I hope noble Lords opposite will understand that this is a point to which we attach great importance. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor admitted, a moment ago, that we were constantly in the habit of dealing with Ireland in a different way from other parts of the United Kingdom. That is very true. Only last night, as your Lordships will remember, it was proposed, in the measure we were then discussing, that the age up to which children should have a certain prohibition placed upon them should be different in Ireland from the English limit. But in this case there are very special reasons why we should deal differently with Ireland. The Irish land system, as we all know, is entirely different from the English land system; and, judging from announcements which have been made elsewhere, we are to have a fresh instalment of Irish land legislation within a few weeks. Surely such a moment is not well chosen for introducing, by a side wind, a fresh change in the law relating to the recovery of rent. This Bill, in the opinion of all who are competent to express an opinion, would lend itself readily to a kind of fraud which is very easily perpetrated in Ireland. It is

  1359
  notorious that broken-down tenants in that country resort to this very expedient of making away with their cattle or exchanging them with their neighbours in order to evade the law. I ask your Lordships further to remember this. In other parts of the United Kingdom a landlord has the means of getting rid of a broken-down tenant or a hopelessly bad farmer. My noble friend the President of the Board of Agriculture will remember that a few days ago one of his Commissioners published a report in regard to small holdings, in which he dwelt upon the extreme necessity of selecting carefully the tenants who were to be entrusted with small holdings. We, in Ireland, have no power to select our tenants. We have to make the best we can of the tenants we have, and we are powerless to prevent a broken-down and dishonest tenant from establishing himself on his farm and deliberately defrauding his landlord. There is, therefore, a very strong case indeed for dealing specially with Ireland. My noble friend has shown conclusively that in this case not only rent, but county cess, tithe-rent charge, and poor rates, and even the purchase annuities under the Land Act of 1903, will be made infinitely more difficult to recover if the Bill is passed in its present form. I therefore hope that your Lordships will, on Report, insert, in one form or another, words which will prevent legislation of which advantage could be taken in Ireland for the purpose of defrauding those who are recovering either rent or public charges of any kind.
  LORD ATKINSONintimated his willingness to withdraw his Amendment until the Report stage. What they really wanted, beyond anything else, was to exclude agricultural holdings.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Standing Committee negatived.
  Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 222.]

  LEGISLATION BY REFERENCE.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I rise to ask whether the Government
  1360
  will, during the present session, cause a full explanatory statement to be circulated in regard to the effect of the clauses of any Bill which contains references to Acts of Parliament. On 18th June I ventured to call your Lordships' attention to the practice of legislation by reference, and to the troublesome and mischievous consequences of that practice to all whose fate it is to read Bills drawn in that manner. The House appeared to agree with me, and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack was so good as to say that if I would give him a few days to consider the matter he would see whether a joint Committee of the two Houses might be appointed for the purpose of considering the question. Nothing has been done since then. I do not in any way complain, because I know that His Majesty's Government have been very much occupied in a great many other ways. But, at the same time, we have to consider what remains of the present session. What is before us in the present session I wish I knew; and I am sure we shall be very much obliged to the noble Earl who leads the House if he will take some early opportunity of informing us what Bills we may expect. In the meantime I would say this, that if the Government propose to bring Bills to this House which contain a great deal of reference to other Acts of Parliament, I hope they will print, not merely the sort of memorandum usually attached to a Bill, but a full explanatory statement of the effect of the clauses upon existing legislation. I do not know whether the Town Planning Bill is likely to reach us, but if, by any chance, it should come up to your Lordships' House, I am sure it would take your Lordships a much longer time than remains between now and Christmas to understand it without some such explanatory statement. I therefore venture to ask the Question standing in my name.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I can assure the noble Earl that His Majesty's Government will do their best to give effect to his suggestion, especially in the case of Government, Bills. There are at times, of course, references to Acts of Parliament which explain themselves, and also references to well-known provisions. I do not suppose

  1361
  that the noble Earl regards it as necessary to deal with those in the way proposed.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Hear, hear.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I understand that what the noble Earl wants is elucidation and light with regard to the effect of important clauses. We will do our best to comply with his request.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of CREWE): My Lords, it has been found, I am told, impossible to take the Report stage of the Children Bill on Monday, owing, I suppose, to some difficulties which have been experienced with regard to producing at so early a date the Amendments which were suggested. That leaves us without any business on the Paper for Monday. I think, therefore it would probably suit the convenience of your Lordships if the House were to be adjourned until Tuesday.
  Moved, "That the House do adjourn until Tuesday except for judicial business."—(The Earl of Crewe.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Five o'clock to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.