Sitting of 21 December 1908

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PETITION.
  WEST AFRICA (IMPORTATION OF SPIRITS).
  Petition from Newcastle-on-Tyne, for suppression; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
  Copy presented, of Agricultural Statistics, 1907, Vol. XLII., Part IV., Colonial and Foreign Statistics and Index [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS AND PESTS ACTS, 1877 AND 1907.
Copy presented, of an Order, dated the 16th day of December, 1908, entitled the "American Gooseberry Mildew (Prohibition of Importation of Bushes) Amendment Order of 1908 (No. 2)" [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
EAST INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN INDIA).
Copy presented, of Return of all Loans raised in India, chargeable on the Revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 30th September, 1908, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 383.]
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table—List of the Bills, Reports, Estimates, and Accounts and Papers printed by order of I the House, and of Papers presented by Command, Session 1908, with a General Alphabetical Index thereto, 28th Parliament, Third Session, 8th Edward VII., 29th January, 1908, to 21st December, 1908; to be printed. [Not 384.]
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they do not insist on their Amendments to the Coal Mines (Eight Hours)) (No. 2) Bill, to which the Commons have disagreed.
Oral Answers to Questions
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Employment of Ex Superintendent at Taunton Post Office.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDS: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can now state whether an ex-superintendent at the Taunton Post Office, who was invalided out of the service about two years ago on a pension

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    of about £100 a year, is at present in employment at the same office, for which he is also receiving wages; whether he has been in this employment for the past few months.; and, if so, whether he will give instructions that persons wholly unemployed shall have preference for employment when the pension is of similar proportion to the above.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I find the facts are substantially as stated. For special reasons this officer was employed; but at Taunton, as elsewhere, I shall continue to employ by preference persons wholly unemployed on all classes of work which can reasonably be entrusted to them.

    Imprisonment of Chinese Seamen Serving on the Steamer "Strathspey."
    MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether any report has been sent by the authorities at Bombay with regard to the imprisonment of Chinese seamen who were serving on the British steamer "Strathspey"; if he can state with what offence the seamen in question were charged and what sentence was passed on them by the Bombay magistrate; whether he is aware that during the past twelve months the Strathspey Steamship Company have experienced difficulty in the management of Chinese crews: and whether the Board of Trade intend to make any inquiries with regard to the continual outbreak and insubordination amongst the Chinamen employed by the Strathspey Steamship Company.
    (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I have received no report from Bombay respecting the case of the "Strathspey," nor have I received any information on the other points raised in the Question, but inquiries shall be made and the result communicated to my hon. friend.

    Cost of Elementary Education.
    MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the President of the Board of Education in what proportions during the year ending 31st July, 1908, was the cost of elementary education met from the Imperial Exchequer and from local rates respectively.
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    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The proportion of the total expenditure during the year ending 31st March, 1907 (the last year for which figures are available) met by Exchequer grants was 53·8 per cent., the remainder being met by local rates and, to the extent of 1·3 per cent., by local receipts from sources, such as endowments, fees, etc.

    Education Loans.
    MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the President of the Board of Education if he will state the total amount of loans for the provision of public elementary schools sanctioned to school boards and local education authorities from 1870 to 31st March, 1908; what was the amount of outstanding loans on 31st March. 1907, and what the amount paid by local education authorities in interest and sinking fund in respect of such loans during the year ending 31st March, 1907.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The total amount of loans for the provision of public elementary schools sanctioned in respect of school boards since 1870 was £48,764,481 10s. 2d. and, in respect of local education authorities up to 31st March, 1908, £8,816,023. The loans outstanding on 31st March, 1907, amounted to £37,822,440. The payments in respect of interest and sinking fund during the year ending 31st March, 1907, amounted to £2,420,583.

    Private Police Patrol in Lough Neagh
    MR. GLENDINNING: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if any complaints have been made to his Department that two steamers with armed police patrol Lough Neagh between sunset and sunrise without showing lights, much to the danger of those using the lough at night; whether he is aware that these steamers are in the employ of private fishing claimants; and will he make inquiries into the matter with the view of putting a stop to the practice.
    (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) A complaint was made to the Board of Trade by the Fishermen's Defence Union that two launches were in the habit of plying; on Lough Neagh without lights, and it

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    was ascertained on inquiry that they were used by the water bailiffs in the employment of fishery lessees. The matter is not one in which the Board of Trade can interfere.

    Corruption of Young Girls in East Africa.
    MR. H. J. WILSON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the corruption of young girls is a criminal offence in British East Africa.
    (Answered by Colonel Seely.) The term used in my hon. friend's Question does not specify any offence known to the law. The law of East Africa with respect to such matters is governed by the principles of the Indian penal code, which contains elaborate provisions on the subject.

    Old-Age Pensions Regulations.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state whether pension officers are instructed to inquire from applicants whether they have been in receipt of pensions from any source during the current and previous three years; has he as a result discovered that railway companies have insisted on their former employees, whom they had pensioned, applying for the pension; and will steps be taken to deal with this state of affairs.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) A pension received by a claimant would be a part of his "means" within the meaning of the Act and the same inquiries have to be made as are made with regard to other sources of income, but they would not as a rule extend over a longer period than the twelve months immediately preceding the application. I am aware that in some cases railway companies and other employers paying voluntary allowances to former employees have, in view of the fact that such employees are qualified to receive old-age pensions, discontinued or reduced their allowances, but, as such action would appear to be within the discretion of the person or company making the allowance, I am not in a position to take any action. I have no reason to suppose that such steps have been taken as
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    a result of inquiries made of the companies by pension officers.

    Clerks to Justices and Private Professional Work.
    MR. RAWLINSON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the inquiries promised by him on 29th October last into the question of certain clerks to justices being concerned professionally for members of the public appearing before their bench, have resulted in any, and what, cases of such malpractices being proved to his satisfaction; and, if any such cases have, been proved, what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) One instance only has been alleged to me of a clerk to justices acting professionally in a case before his bench, and in that case I found on inquiry that the proceedings in question were not before his bench, but in a County Court.

    Payments under the Workmen's Compensation Act.
    MR. McLAREN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that much dissatisfaction continues to be felt among workmen that payment under the Workmen's Compensation Acts does not commence in each case from the date of the accident, he intends to take steps to introduce an amending Bill next session.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I could not undertake to introduce an amending Bill without further experience of the working of the Act of 1906, even if there were not other more pressing subjects for legislation. I may add that I have received no representations as to the dissatisfaction to which my hon. friend refers.

    Taxation per Head in Principal European Countries.
    LORD R. CECIL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the average amount of taxation, including local taxation, per head in the United Kingdom, in the principal European countries, and in the United States.

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    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I have no information with regard to foreign countries which would enable me to give an Answer to this Question.

    Horse for Dowra Police Force.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state whether there is a horse attached to the police force quartered in Dowra; if so, where is the animal stabled and at what cost; to whom is the rent paid; who pays for the fodder, and what is the cost of the same per annum; what is the annual cost of the man in charge of this horse; what is the usual work this horse is used for, and how often does this arise; how long has this horse been in Dowra; what was the original cost and what is it worth now; have any of the men at this station bicycles; is there a telegraph office in the village; and will he say if this stud can be profitably dispensed with, and, if so, how soon.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary informs me that there is a transport horse and car attached to the Dowra Police Station. The horse and car are put up at the house of Mr. Stuart Flaherty, local postmaster and clerk of petty sessions, to whom the sum of 1s. 9d. a day is paid for stabling, harness-room, and coach-house. The fodder is paid for by the police authorities at the rate of 2s. per day. The man in charge is a mounted constable, with the pay of his rank, but without the usual allowances for arms and saddlery. He draws in addition 6d. a day transport allowane, and 4s. 6d. per month for stable requisites. The horse is used for trans port purposes and for conveying coals and provisions to an outlying station. These duties are continually arising. The horse in question has been at Dowra for fourteen months. It is presumed to have cost originally about £40. Having regard to its age it is not now worth more than about £20. Several of the police at Dowra have bicycles and there is a telegraph office in the village. The horse and car cannot at present be withdrawn from Dowra.

    Evicted Tenants—Case of Dab Diffley.
    MR. JAMES O'KELLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the case of Dan Diffley, who was evicted twenty-four years ago from his holding containing about six English acres, situate at Cloonfad, near Roosky, in the County of Roscommon, the landlord of the holding being Captain Treadwick; is he aware that Dan Diffley was a yearly tenant, that John Diffley took the holding two years after the eviction of Dan Diffley, and that John Diffley's son, Thomas Diffley, is in occupation now of the holding from which Dan Diffley was evicted; that the estate is going to be sold out to the tenants through the Estates Commissioners; that the present applicant is Martin Diffley, of Kilmore, Clondra, and lives in a labourer's cottage with his wife and two children, and is a son of Dan Diffley, deceased; and that Martin Diffley wants to be reinstated in the home of his childhood, and is the personal representative of the evicted tenant Dan Diffley; and will he say what action the Estates Commissioners propose to take in this case.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have decided not to take any action on the application of Martin Diffley for reinstatement in the holding of which John Diffley's son is in occupation as tenant.

    Persons Employed in the Lead Trade.
    MR. JOHN WARD: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state the number of workpeople employed in contact with lead generally, the number employed in white lead factories, the number employed in orange and red lead factories, and the number employed in electrical accumulator works in each case.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) There are no Returns which give the number of workpeople employed in contact with lead. The use of lead in some form or another is so large and varied that it would be almost impossible to obtain figures for it. Neither do the

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    Returns which are collected by the Factory Department discriminate between the numbers of persons employed in white lead, orange, and red lead factories, respectively. I am, however, able to give the following figures: in 1904 the total number of persons employed in white, orange, and red lead factories was 1,835, and of those employed in electrical accumulator factories, 1,108.

    Temperature of Stokeholds of Battleships.
    MR. JOHN WARD: To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty what are the recorded temperatures in the stokeholds of His Majesty's ships of war in each class when travelling at full speed and ordinary speed; what were the recorded temperatures in the stokeholds of the "Indefatigable" on her homeward journey across the Atlantic with the Prince of Wales aboard; and how long do stokers work in the stokehold on ordinary service.
    (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The information asked for in the first part of the Question cannot be furnished without exhaustive inspection of Returns, which cannot be carried out with the present staff without delaying important work, which delay would be detrimental to efficiency. The second part of the Question apparently refers to the "Indomitable." No information is yet available in the Department. The reply to the third part of the Question is eight hours a day.

    Admiralty Contracts—Messrs. Morrison and Mason and the Fair Wages Clause.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDS: To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the contractors, Messrs. Morrison and Mason, are paying 5d. per hour for labourers, whilst 6d. per hour is the rate recognised in the borough of Portsmouth for labourers, employed in and about building operations whether he has consulted the representatives of labour in the borough, and, if not, will he now consult them; whether these men having served in the Army is any reason why they should be paid less wages than others, and why they should be compelled to work five hours per week longer whether, when the Admiralty considered this matter, they were
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    aware that only non-union labour was being employed and preference given to non-unionists over trade unionists; and what action does he intend to take in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I am aware that Messrs. Morrison and Mason are paying some of their labourers at the rate of 5d. per hour, but the work done by them is not the same class of work as that for which the rate of 6d. per hour is recognised in the borough. I have not consulted the representatives of labour in the borough, and I do not understand that any of the facts on which the representatives of labour could assist me are in dispute. The fact that ex-soldiers may be employed is not a reason why they should be paid lower wages than others engaged on the same class of work, and no distinction as regards ex-soldiers is made, either as to pay or as to the number of hours worked per week. I am not aware that only non-union labour is being employed or that preference is given to non-unionists over trade unionists, and the matter is not one which comes under the control of the Admiralty.

    New York Labour Statistics.
    MR. JOHN WARD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has any official information showing whether the statistics of the Labour Department of New York State are complied from trade union returns that are general to the whole of the United States of America.
    (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) In the bulletins issued by the Labour Department of the State of New York the names of the unions from which the statistics are obtained are not given, and it is therefore impossible to state from the official information whether these statistics are compiled from trade union returns which are general to the whole of the United States.

    Irish Poor Law Valuation.
    MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will ascertain from the Registrar-General whether the total Poor Law valuation of agricultural holdings in Ireland, as shown in column

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    24 of Parliamentary Paper [Cd. 4412] and in Table 68 of the General Report of the Census of 1901, namely £10,061,667 is inclusive of the valuation of all demesne lands throughout Ireland, home parks, grazing lands, allotments not exceeding one or two acres in extent let to tenants of labourers' cottages, market gardens and of holdings not coming within the scope of land purchase, and of all descriptions of land comprised in the statutable acreage of Ireland, less the civic area of towns of not less than 2,000 inhabitants, and the acreage of roads, fences, plantations, and other similar tracts; will he state whether the total amount of purchase money under the Land Act of 1903, now estimated by the Estates Commissioners at £183,568,396, is based on the assumption that all such lands, together with agricultural holdings remaining unsold on 1st November, will be sold at the average price for which sales have heretofore been completed under the Act; and, if so, what is the justification for the assumption.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Census Return of agricultural holdings referred to in the Question includes all occupied land, such as ordinary agricultural holdings, demesne lands, grazing lands, plantations, mountain, and marsh, but does not include land under towns, waste, small gardens in towns and villages, land under railways, and land attached to workhouses and other public institutions. Advances under the Land Purchase Acts can and have been made for the purchase of the various classes of land comprised in the Census Return, including demesnes, home farms, grazing lands, and lands for the purposes of the Labourers Acts. Advances have also been made for lands not included in the Census Return, such as village and town plots and gardens. In making an estimate of the purchase, money of the land unsold on 1st November last, the Estates Commissioners assumed that all lands comprised in the Return would or might be sold under the Land Purchase Acts at the average price of lands already sold under the Act of 1903.

    Speedometers on Motor-Driven Vehicles.
    Mr. BOWERMAN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade
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    whether, in agreement with the powers possessed by the Board, he will consider the desirability of making a regulation compelling all mechanically-driven vehicles, such as motor-cars, motor omnibuses, and electric tramcars, to carry speedometers, so that the public may be safeguarded against the risks attendant upon reckless driving, and the drivers of such vehicles protected against charges of exceeding the speed-limit.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Perhaps I may be allowed to answer this Question. The Royal Commission on Motor Cars considered a number of suggestions as to speed indicators or speedometers, but came to the conclusion that they could not recommend that the adoption of them in respect to motor-cars should be made compulsory. I have not seen my way to depart from the recommendations of the Royal Commission in this matter. I have no jurisdiction in the matter so far as tramcars are concerned, but I understand that the Board of Trade are suggesting to tramway authorities that a proportion of their cars should be fitted with speed indicators for training purposes, so as to enable motor-men to be trained in judging speeds.

    The Hobhouse Report—Senior and Head Postmen.
    MR. BOWERMAN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can now state when he will be prepared to carry into effect the recommendation embodied in Paragraph 406 of the Report of the Hobhouse Committee, which states that the class of senior postman should be amalgamated with that of head postman.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The adoption of the recommendation referred to has involved questions of considerable difficulty. The selection of officers to perform the various groups of duties is now proceeding, and I hope that the scheme may shortly be completed.

    Pay of Extra Men Engaged for Christmas Work at Seacombe Post Office.
    MR. RAMSAY MACDONALD: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will explain Why applicants for special Christmas Work at Seacombe, Cheshire,

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    have received forms stating that the pay is to be 5¼d. per hour, whereas previously it was 6d. per hour up to 21st December and 8d. per hour from that date until the work finished.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I am writing to the hon. Member on this subject.

    Coal Residue in Reinforced Concrete.
    MR. ANNAN BRYCE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board what has been the result of inquiries which he promised to make as to the forbidding throughout Germany of the use of coal residues in reinforced concrete for building purposes; and whether he proposes to take any steps with regard to the use of such material in England.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have made some inquiry on this subject, but my investigations are not at present concluded, and in the meantime I am not in a position to come to a conclusion with regard to the use in England of the material referred to.

    Building of Piers.
    MR. FLAVIN: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Government advance loans to harbour or other public authorities for the building of piers or viaducts leading to piers for shipping accommodation in harbours; whether the Local Government Board have any official reports showing whether jarrah wood or pitch pine or ferro-concrete is the most serviceable and lasting in tidal or salt water, and the relative cost of jarrah wood, pitch pine, and ferro-concrete; and for what period would a loan be issued for work done in jarrah wood or pitch pine or in ferro-concrete.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Money may be borrowed from the Public Works Loan Commissioners for these purposes, but it is only in very exceptional cases that such loans require the sanction of the Local Government Board. The term for which any loan would be sanctioned would depend on the nature and solidity of the work and all the circumstances of the case. The Board have no official
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    reports with regard to the durability of jarrah wood, or pitch pine, or ferroconcrete in salt water. This would largely depend upon the conditions under which the materials were used. I am advised that the relative cost of the materials respectively varies as 2: 1: 1½.

    Distress Committee for Brentford.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will reconsider the application of the Brentford Urban District Council for sanction to create a distress committee; and, in the event of his not being able to grant the application, will he state what steps may be taken by the council to deal with the unemployed in its area.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have not received any representations since I came to a decision with regard to this application which would show that is ought to be reconsidered. I should hope that the necessities of the case would be met by local effort, and I understand that the urban district council are doing their best to provide work upon which the unemployed may be engaged.

    Old-Age Pensions Regulation.
    MR. HORNIMAN: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether an old woman, occupying a cottage conjointly with her daughter and son-in-law who pay the major portion of the rent, £26, is disqualified for an old-age pension owing to the fact that her name appears as rateable occupier of the same.
    (Mr. John Burns.) My hon. friend will realise that the circumstances of each particular case must be considered, but I may say generally that the fact that a claimant is the rateable occupier of a cottage of the kind to which he refers would not, I think, in itself preclude her from receiving an old-age pension.

    Oxford Street School, Swansea—Report of Inquiry.
    LORD BALCARRES: To ask the President of the Board of Education why the report of the public local inquiry concerning the Oxford Street school at Swansea, which is dated

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    30th September, was withheld from publication for ten weeks.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) "Publication" is not required by the statute, but simply a deposit of the report of the inquiry at the offices of the local education authority. It is not the practice of the Board to deposit the report until the Board have come to a decision upon the questions with regard to which the inquiry was held, and no useful purpose would be served by such a course. In this case very difficult questions of fact and law arose which required prolonged consideration by the Board, with such legal assistance as is at the disposal of the Government, before that decision could be arrived at. The decision was communicated directly it was arrived at to the local education authority and to the managers.
    LORD BALCARRES: To ask the President of the Board of Education on what dates the report of the public local inquiry concerning the Oxford Street school at Swansea was sent to the local education authority and to the managers, respectively; and if it is usual to forward these reports simultaneously to the parties concerned.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The decision of the Board on the question which formed the subject matter of the inquiry was forwarded to the authority and to the managers simultaneously on 17th December. At the same time the report of Mr. Hamilton was forwarded to the authority for deposit in pursuance of Section 73 (3) of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, and the managers were informed that this course had been taken, and that the place of deposit was the Guildhall, Swansea. It is not usual to forward Reports of local inquiries to anyone but the local education authority concerned.

    Old-Age Pensions—Computation of Incomes of Irish Farmers.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in calculating the incomes of small farmer pension claimants in Ireland, the pension officers treated the members of claimant's family
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    working on the farm as earning whatever they received in food, clothing, lodging, etc., up to a limit substantially higher (in the case of members of the family doing work of management and supervision) than ordinary labourers' wages, or whether the pension officer treated the children's support as part of the claimant's income; whether the support of small children of a married son living on the farm was treated as part of the father's earnings when it did not bring the latter above the limit in question, or whether the pension officer treated same as coming out of the grandfather's (claimant's) income; whether he is aware that the working of small farms in Ireland by the owner and his family really constitutes a genuine though informal partnership, so that a claimant should only be fixed with the value of the benefit actually received from the holding by himself and by members of his family, who did not earn or who received more than they earned; whether, in the event of the authorities not accepting this view, they will, before taking action, make inquiries among clergymen, magistrates, solicitors, and other persons in Ireland familiar with the habits of small farmers in question; whether he is aware that, apart from their respective legal powers when disputes arose, the position of a small farmer who retained the legal ownership of his farm was identical with that of one who had made it over to a child on marriage, retaining only a right of residence and support by covenant in the deed; and whether he is aware that in many instances the cost of preparing a deed was the only reason the owner did not assign it to a child on marriage, and that all concerned treated it as owned by the married son, subject to an obligation of supporting his parents.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Cases of the kind referred to have up to the present been treated upon their merits, regard being had to the particular circumstances of each case, and no general principles have been laid down. The formulation of such principles, which may involve legal considerations of some complexity, is a matter for the Local Government Board in dealing with appeals rather than for the pension

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    officer, and pension officers will be instructed to guide themselves in the future by the decisions given in such cases by that Board.

    Evicted Tenants—Case of Thomas Kent.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have considered the Report of their inspector upon the case of Thomas Kent, of Ballinamona, an evicted tenant on the Kingston estate, Mitchelstown, and whose farm is in the landlord's possession; and whether steps are being taken to bring about the reinstatement of the evicted tenant in his old holding.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that the papers in this case are with their inspector for consideration in connection with the distribution of untenanted land on the estate.

    Distress in Drogheda.
    MR. NOLAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that representations have been made to the Local Government Board (Ireland) as to the existence of great distress in Drogheda through want of employment; whether he can state the number of working men out of employment there and the amount of the grant by the Local Government Board to the distress fund; and whether that amount is in proportion to the grants made in England in similar cases.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Drogheda Distress Committee have made representations to the Local Government Board that a large number of men in that town are in want of employment. The committee are giving employment to about 175 men. It is understood that they have a considerably larger list of persons eligible for work. The exact number is not known to the Local Government Board. A grant of £450 has been made to Drogheda by the Treasury out of the Parliamentary Vote, and of this £300 has been advanced by the Local Government Board to the distress committee. The question of
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    making a further grant will be considered if the necessity arises. I have no information as to how this grant compares with the grants made in England.

    Information as to Public Officials.
    MR. JOWETT: To ask the Prime Minister if a Member of this House is entitled to information as to the identity and official position of public officials in attendance on one of the Standing Committees of the House; and, if so, to whom should he apply for the information.
    (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) Requests for information about officers of this House should be addressed to the authorities of the House. Requests for information about public officials attending in pursuance of a request from a Minister of the Crown should be addressed to that Minister.

    Indian Sovereign Princes Resident in this Country, and English Law.
    MR. WILLS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that a motor car collision took place at Sturminster Marshall, Dorset, on 18th November last, in which Mr. Roy George, a native of Blandford, was seriously injured by a motor car driven by Prince Jitendra Narayan, eldest son of the Maharaja of Cooch Behar, and that, on being summoned for unlawfully driving the car to the danger of the public, the prince successfully pleaded that as a foreign sovereign prince he was not liable to process of British Law; and whether he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to protect the citizens of this country from similar dangers at the hands of this or any other irresponsible sovereign princes.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have seen a newspaper report of the case, from which I gather that the prince was willing that the justices should deal with the complaint, but that they held that they had no jurisdiction over him. My hon. friend will no doubt see that any such legislation as that desired by him could not be limited to offences

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    under the Motor Car Acts. His suggestion, therefore, raises a general question as regards the position of sovereign princes resident in this country with which it would not be within my province to deal.

    Overcrowding of Schools at Willesden.
    MR. YOXALL: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he has received information that considerable and systematic overcrowding exists in schools controlled by the Willesden Education Committee, to the detriment of the scholars and the dissatisfaction of their parents; and will he take steps to prevent this for the future.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Board have received complaints as to overcrowding of certain schools in the urban district of Willesden, and careful inquiries are being made.

    Salaries of Customs Clerks.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in connection with the open competitive examination held in October, 1900, for second-class clerkships, lower section, in the Customs, he will state the present average salary of the successful candidates; what was their average salary immediately prior to promotion to upper-section clerkships, and what average immediate increase did they receive; and, in connection with the examination for second division clerkships held in September, 1900, the present average salary of the successful candidates who entered the Savings Bank Department of the Post Office; what is the percentage of appointments with salaries above £200 to appointments with salaries up to £200 in the Customs clerks and Savings Banks second division clerks classifications respectively; whether the entrance examinations for Customs clerks and second division clerks were practically neutral in 1900; and what other positions besides those in the ordinary classification Customs clerks have open to them.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) I am informed that the present average salary of the successful candidates at the October, 1900, competition for Customs
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    second-class clerkships, lower section, is £195 6s. 8d. Their average salary immediately prior to promotion to the upper section (one clerk has not yet been promoted) was £118 11s. 5d. The average immediate increase of salary to those promoted was £81 8s. 6d. The present average salary of the Second Division clerks who entered the Savings Bank Department of the Post Office in 1900 is £124. The percentage of appointments with salaries above £200 to appointments with salaries up to £200 in the Customs clerks classification is 99; the question, however, is not applicable to the case of Second Division clerks whose scale of salary is £70 to £300 or £350. The Civil Service Commissioners inform me that in 1900 the examinations for the two classes of clerkships referred to were quite distinct and were held at different times. As regards the last part of the Question, I understand that clerks, in common with other officers, are eligible for appointment to chief officerships and collectorships of Customs as well as to any position in the superintending establishment for which they are considered qualified.

    East African Protectorates—Deportation of Disloyal Agitators.
    MR. REES: To ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether in the East Africa Protectorate power is reserved to the Government to deport disloyal and dangerous agitators and others; and whether such power is reserved in respect of other Colonies and Dependencies.
    (Answered by Colonel Seely.) Under Section 25 of the East African Order in Council the Governor has the power to which my hon. friend refers. A similar power is reserved in other African Protectorates. I am not aware that the power exists generally in the Colonies strictly so-called.

    Education of Indian Children in Natal.
    DR. RUTHERFORD: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received information to the effect that the Government of Natal have reinstated the notice that was withdrawn about a month ago to the effect that Indian children over fourteen years of age will,

    2371
    on and after 23rd December next, have to leave the Indian schools no matter what standard they may have reached; and, if so, whether any alternative schooling is to be provided for them, and does His Majesty's Government propose to take any action.
    (Answered by Colonel Seely.) I have no official information to this effect, but inquiry is being made of the Governor.

    Irish National Teachers' Pensions.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state why the recommendation of the Commissioners of National Education in their Report for 1907–8, viz. to add ten years to a service of twenty-five years as teacher to qualify for pension, in case of mental or physical debility, was rejected; is the ever accumulating fund, amounting at present to £2,300,000 and partly built up by the teachers themselves, not considered sufficient to provide a better pension than £3 19s. 8d. per annum to teachers after twenty-six years service; and will he take into consideration the views of the teachers with a view to allaying the discontent existing amtongs them on the question of pensions.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) The refusal was based on financial grounds, the Treasury not being justified in asking Parliament to impose additional burdens upon the taxpayer in respect of this service, particularly at a time when proposals (since sanctioned at a cost of £114,000 a year) for the improvement of the salaries of Irish teachers were under consideration. The adoption of the proposals would in any case have involved extensive readjustment of a large part of the pension scheme, and would have resulted in serious inequalities as between different classes of teachers. The actuarial investigation made in 1906 shows that the accumulation of the fund is not sufficiently rapid to provide for its accruing liabilities. The average disablement allowance, however, in cases of retirement after twenty six years service is (even apart from the value of the premiums returned with compound interest) very considerably in excess of the amount stated in the Question. The representations of the Commissioners of National
    2372
    Education received very careful consideration before the decision to which the hon. Member refers was arrived at, and I do not think there would be any advantage in re-opening the question at the present time.

    Indian Reforms—The Partition of Bengal.
    MR. SMEATON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, in consideration of the probability that the maintenance of the partit on of Bengal in its present form may imperil the success of the reforms announced by His Majesty's Government, the Secretary of State can see his way to re-open the question and, after consultation with the leaders of moderate opinion in the dismembered province, to modify the partition in such a way as to meet the wishes of the great majority of the people of Bengal.
    (Answered by Mr. Buchanan.) The Secretary of State does not propose to re-open the question of the administrative sub-division of Bengal, nor has he any good reason to suppose that the maintenance of the status quo in this respect will imperil the success of the constitutional reforms about to be introduced.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Temperatures of Battle Shipstokeholds.
    MR. JOHN WARD: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty what are the recorded temperatures in the stokeholds of His Majesty's ships of war in each class when travelling at full speed and ordinary speed; what were the recorded temperatures in the stokeholds of the "Indefatigable" on her homeward journey across the Atlantic with the Prince of Wales aboard; and how long do stokers work in the stokehold on ordinary service.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Dr. MACNAMARA, Camberwell, N.): The information asked for in the first part of the Question cannot be furnished without exhaustive inspection of Returns, and cannot be carried out with the present staff without delaying

    2373
    important work—which delay would be detrimental to efficiency. The second part of the Question apparently refers to the "Indomitable." No information is yet available in the Department. The reply to the third part of the Question is eight hours a day.
    MR. JOHN WARD: Arising out of that Answer, can the hon. Gentleman supply me with information with reference to the "Indefatigable" the moment it is available?
    DR. MACNAMARA: I do not know if any explanations have come into the Department with regard to that vessel, but I will see if I can supply the information.

    Woolwich Arsenal Discharges.
    MR. CROOKS: I beg to ask a Question, of which I have given oral notice, viz., What steps the Secretary of State for war proposes to take with regard to the notices of dismissal given to between twenty and thirty workmen of the engineers' section of the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich—most of whom are old servants and some with twenty years service—having regard to the pledge which has been given both inside the House and outside that no more discharge will take place, but that the reduction to reach the minimum will be by natural shrinkage.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ACLAND, Yorkshire, Richmond): The hon. Member gave me notice of the Question only an hour since, and the hour between one and two is not the most convenient for obtaining accurate and full information from Woolwich. I have therefore, not been able to find out whether the notices have been given, but if they have been given it is an error. There is no intention of departing from the pledge that the minimum shall be reached by wastage and not by further discharges. I will send the hon. Member information this afternoon as to exactly what has occurred.

    The Partition of Bengal.
    *MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary
    2374
    of State for India if, before Parliament meets again, he will obtain, in regard to the partition of Bengal, the opinions of all retired members of the Bengal Civil Service now resident in the United Kingdom who are ex-lieutenant governors, ex-members of the Legislative Council of Bengal, or who have held the office of commissioner of a division, and lay such opinions upon the Table of the House.
    I beg also to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India if, before Parliament meets again, he will obtain, in regard to the partition of Bengal, the opinions and advice of the Maharajas, Nawabs, and Rajas of Bengal proper, which province was divided into two portions by that measure; and whether he will lay such opinions on the Table of the House.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BUCHANAN, Perthshire, E.): The Secretary of State is not disposed to take the action suggested in the Questions of my hon. friend.
    *MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is willing to give the House the most experienced and independent official opinion, and also the opinion of the most loyal section of the Bengal community?
    MR. BUCHANAN: The Secretary of State has no desire to undervalue the opinion of either class, but he does not think it would, at the present moment, serve any useful purpose to take the action suggested.
    *MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: May the House hope to have the information later?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I am afraid I cannot go further than I have already stated.
    MR. REES: Has there not been a satisfactory consensus of the greater part of public opinion in favour of this measure as evidenced by the resolutions passed by loyal Hindus, Mahomedans, and Christians in Bengal?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I am not disposed to say either yea or nay.
    *MR. C. J. O'DONNELLasked when, how or where these resolutions were passed.
    MR. BUCHANAN: I have not that information.
    MR. REES: I can give it to the hon. Member.

    Scottish Harvest.
    MR. COCHRANE: I beg to ask the hon Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he has any report as to the quality and quantity of the harvest of cereals in the West and South-West of Scotland for the current year, and how the crops compare in quantity and quality with the previous three years.
    CAPTAIN NORTON (Newington, W., for Sir EDWARD STRACHEY): In the West of Scotland, from Inverness northwards, the yield of barley in 1908 was estimated at about one and a half bushels per acre above the average of the preceding three years, that of oats two and three quarter bushels above. In the South-West, wheat yielded half a bushel more than the average of three preceding years, barley two and a half more, and oats two and a half more, per acre. The quality of the grain in the West this year is generally reported to be good, and would appear to be better than on the average of the past three years. In the South-West, the Reports as to quality are not so favourable.
    MR. COCHRANE: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the President
    2376
    of the Board of Agriculture in reply to a deputation from South-West Ayrshire congratulated the Members on the abundant harvest.
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member should give notice of that.
    Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
    The House went; and the Royal Assent was given to a number of Acts. (see page).
    And afterwards His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord High Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Commands).
    Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
    After which the Lord Chancellor said:
    My Lords and Gentlemen,
    By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name, and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday the Sixteenth day of February, one thousand nine hundred and nine, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Tuesday, the Sixteenth day of February one thousand nine hundred and nine.
    End of the Third Session of the twenty-eighth Parliament of the United Kingdom and Ireland in the Eighth Year of the Reign of His Majesty King Edward VII.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill.—Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRUCK ACT.
  Report of the Departmental Committee on the Truck Acts: Vol. I. Report; Vol. II. Minutes of Evidence (days 1–37); Vol. III. Minutes of Evidence (days 38–66) and Index.

BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
Agricultural Statistics, 1907, Vol. XLII, Part IV. Colonial and Foreign Statistics and Index.
Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS AND PESTS ACTS, 1877 AND 1907.
Order, dated 16th December, 1908, entitled the "American Gooseberry Mildew (Prohibition of Importation of Bushes) (Amendment Older of 1908 (No. 2))."

INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN INDIA.
Return of all loans raised in India chargeable on the revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half year ended on 30th September, 1908, with the rates of interest and total amount payable thereon, and the date of the termination of each loan, the debt incurred during the half-year, the moneys raised thereby during the half year, the loans paid off or discharged during the half year, and the loans outstanding at the close of the half year, stating, so far as the public convenience will allow, the purpose or service for which moneys have been raised during the half year.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Bill [H.L.].—Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Public Meeting Bill.—Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent—

1. White Phosphorus Matches Prohibition.

2. Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Amendment.

3. Lunacy.

4. Post Office Consolidation.

5. Incest.

6. Criminal Appeal Amendment.

7. Local Authorities (Admission of the Press).

8. Statute Law Revision.

9. Commons.

10. Education (Scotland).

11. Prevention of Crime.

12. Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland).

13. Post Office Savings Bank (Public-Trustee) (No. 2).

14. Companies (Consolidation).

15. East India Loans.

16. Poisons and Pharmacy.

17. Appellate Jurisdiction.

18. Assizes and Quarter Sessions.

19. Crofters Common Grazings Regulation.

20. Children.

21. Constabulary (Ireland).

22. Port of London.

23. Law of Distress Amendment.

24. Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland).

25. Local Government (Scotland).

26. Tuberculosis Prevention (Ireland).

27. Coal Mines (Eight Hours) (No. 2).

28. Agricultural Holdings (Scotland).

29. Public Meeting.

30. Buxton Charity.

31. Long Ashton Charity.

32. Abbots Bromley Charity.

33. Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Cornwall, etc.).

34. Kirkcaldy and Dysalt Water Order Confirmation.

35. North British Railway Order Confirmation.

36. Perth Corporation Order Confirmation.

2347

37. Post Office Sites.

38. Edinburgh and Leith Corporations Gas Order Confirmation.

39. Water of Leith Purification and Sewerage Order Confirmation.

40. Local Government Provisional Order (No. 3).

41. Liverpool Corporation (Streets and Buildings).

42. Ards Railways.

43. London Electric Supply.

44. London (Westminster and Kensington) Electric Supply Companies.

HIS MAJESTY'S SPEECH.
And afterwards His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Commands) as followeth—
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
I was much gratified at receiving last May an official visit from the President of the French Republic on the occasion of the Franco-British Exhibition in London. The reception given to M. Fallières by the citizens of London afforded a renewed proof of the cordial feelings entertained in this country towards the French nation.
The recent visit of the King and Queen of Sweden gave great pleasure to the Queen and myself, and will confirm the traditions of friendship which happily exist between the two countries.
My relations with foreign Powers continue to be friendly.
During the past year several important Agreements with foreign Governments have been concluded, which, by eliminating causes of contention, must tend to the consolidation of peace.
Amongst these may be mentioned Treaties with the United States of America for general arbitration, and for regulating certain questions between the United States of America and the Dominion of Canada; and the Agreement for the maintenance of the existing territorial status in the regions bordering on the North Sea.
A Convention has been signed by the Representatives of my Government and of the other States, parties to the International Union for the Protection of
2348
Literary and Artistic Works, consolidating and revising the Berne Convention and the Additional Act of Paris. The amended Convention, which will need legislation to give effect to it, will be examined by a Committee before I decide upon its ratification. Papers will be laid before you.
Certain events have recently occurred calculated to disturb the provisions of the Treaty of Berlin in the Balkan peninsula; but there is reason to hope that wise and conciliatory counsels will prevail, and that an amicable settlement will be reached with the consent of the Powers who are parties to the Treaty.
Since I last addressed you, the Belgian Government have notified the assumption by Belgium of the Sovereignty of the Independent State of the Congo. My Government are at present discussing with the Government of Belgium the conditions by which the provisions of the Treaties affecting the territory in question will be safeguarded, when the transfer has been recognised.
I have appointed Commissioners to attend the International Conference, which is to meet at Shanghai in February, to investigate the opium trade and opium habit in the Far East, and to offer suggestions for measures which the Powers concerned may adopt for the gradual suppression of the cultivation, traffic, and use of opium within their Eastern possessions, with a view to assisting China in her purpose of eradicating the opium trade in the Chinese Empire.
A Conference of the principal Naval Powers is at present sitting in London, on the invitation of my Government, with a view to declaring and formulating by common argeement such rules on certain questions affecting the conduct of naval warfare as will, it is hoped, command general assent.
The raids of certain tribes on the North-West Frontier of India rendered military operations necessary for the protection of my subjects and the punishment of the offenders. These operations were skilfully devised and successfully conducted by all concerned.
The famine that unhappily prevailed over parts of India was met by the

2349
people with great courage and self-reliance, and the efforts of my officers to relieve suffering and restore prosperity were effective and unremitting.
I deeply regret that the internal tranquillity of parts of my Indian Dominions has been disturbed by a conspiracy of evil-disposed persons against the lives of my officers and the continuance of British rule. But the actions of these persons, while they have necessitated deterrent legislation of an exceptional nature for the protection of life and property and the maintenance of order, have also called forth in all parts of India demonstrations of loyalty to my person and my Government. My Government have, therefore, felt justified in pressing forward the measures that have long been under their consideration for enlarging the share of the Indian peoples in the administration of the country. These measures have been, laid before you, and I earnestly hope that they will be received in the spirit of mutual trust and goodwill in which they are proposed.
In the month of July my Son, the Prince of Wales, acting as my representative, paid a visit to the Dominion of Canada, and took part in the interesting celebrations which had been arranged under the auspices of the Governor-General to commemorate the founding of the city of Quebec by Samuel de Champlain. The affectionate reception given to my Son by all classes of my Canadian subjects touched me deeply, and I learned from him with great satisfaction of the loyalty and enthusiasm everywhere displayed upon that unique and historic occasion.
The visit of the American Fleet to Australasian waters evoked warm feelings of cordiality in my Dominions in that quarter of the globe, and was a source of gratification to myself and to my Government.
The important Convention of Statesmen formed to discuss proposals for the closer union of my South African Dominions still continues its deliberations. I am well assured that its labours will conduce to the abiding prosperity of the people of South Africa.
Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
I thank you for the provision which you have made for the services of the year.
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
The Navy has been maintained in a high state of efficiency, and steady progress continues to be made with the reorganisation of the Military Forces of the Crown in accordance with the principles already sanctioned by Parliament.
It was with much satisfaction that I gave my assent to a measure for securing better provision for necessitous old age.
An Act has been passed establishing in Ireland two Universities, to be called respectively the Queen's University of Belfast, and the National University of Ireland. I trust that both seats of learning may play an important and honourable part in the future education of the country.
I have assented to a measure for educational reform in Scotland which confers new powers of control over young persons up to the age of seventeen, improves the position of the teacher, and consolidates all Scottish funds available for the promotion of education, and simplifies their administration.
I regret that, in regard to the controversies connected with the subjects of licensing and national education in England, notwithstanding the time and labour which have been given to their consideration, no settlement has been attained.
Much-needed provision has been made for affording judicial assistance to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and to the Court of Appeal in England.
For the purpose of improving the conditions of labour, I have given my assent to a measure to limit the daily hours worked below ground by the men and boys employed in coal mines.
A measure has been passed largely extending, in a variety of directions, the law for the protection of children from cruelty danger, and neglect, and reforming the methods for dealing with juvenile offenders.
I have sanctioned an Act for the Prevention of Crime, through provision for

2351
the reformation of young offenders in Borstal Intsitutions, and through the detention, under new regulations, of habitual criminals.
My assent has been given to a measure for the improvement and better administration of the Port of London, which closes a long period of uncertainty detrimental to the commerce and shipping of the capital, and which will, I trust, afford a just and comprehensive settlement of this intricate and important question.
A large number of other measures of public utility have been added to the Statute-book, and amongst them several Acts of unusual scope and comprehensiveness for consolidating existing enactments in various branches of the law.
I thank you for the zeal which has characterised your protracted and arduous labours, and I pray that they may be rewarded by the blessing of Almighty God.
Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
After which the Lord Chancellor said—
My Lords and Gentlemen,
By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday the Sixteenth day of February One thousand nine hundred and nine, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Tuesday the Sixteenth day of February One thousand nine hundred and nine.