Sitting of 14 April 1908

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

NEW WRITS.
For Borough of Dewsbury, in the room of Walter Runciman, esquire, President of the Board of Education.—(Mr. Whiteley.)
Borough of Manchester (North-West Division). Right hon. Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, President of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade and Plantations—(Mr. Whiteley).
Borough of Sheffield (Central Division) Colonel Sir Charles Edward Howard Vincent, K.C.M.G., C.B., deceased.—(Mr. Henry Forster.)

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table, Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—Llanelly Gas Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

  PORT OF LONDON BILL (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd day of April, That, in the case of the following Bill, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Port of London Bill.
  Great Eastern Railway (General Powers) Bill.—Read the third time, and passed.
  Blaydon and Ryton Water (Transfer) Bill; Dover Graving Docks Bill—As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Knott End Railway Bill.—As amended, considered; a clause added; Bill to be read the third time.
  Louth and East Coast Railway (Transfer) Bill.—As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Private Bills, etc. Ordered, That Standing Orders 39, 128, and 230 be suspended, and that the time for depositing Petitions and Memorials against Private Bills, or against any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, and for depositing duplicates of any Documents relating to any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, also for depositing at the Private Bill Office all Documents relating to any Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Recess.—(The Deputy-Chairman.)
  Sligo and Arigna Railway Bill. Petition for additional Provision; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to Army (Annual) Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to explain section ninety-two of The Patents and Designs Act, 1907." [Patents and Designs Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled "An Act to authorise the introduction of proportional representation in Municipal Elections; and for other purposes." [Municipal Representation Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for empowering the Cardiff Railway Company to construct new railways; for extending the time for the purchase of certain lands and for the completion of certain railways; for reviving the powers of the Company to construct certain works; for confirming an agreement between the Caerphilly Urban District Council and
968
the Company; and for other purposes." [Cardiff Railway Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Metropolitan Electric Tramways, Limited, to construct a new tramway and widen certain streets and roads; and for other purposes." [Metropolitan Electric Tramways Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to increase and regulate the capital of the Argentine North Eastern Railway Company, Limited, and to fund the arrears of dividend on its preferred stock by the issue of fully paid stock; and for other purposes." [Argentine North Eastern Railway Bill [Lords.]
And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the granting of superannuation allowances to the officers and servants of the council of the metropolitan borough of Saint Marylebone; and for other purposes." [Saint Marylebone Borough Council (Superannuation) Bill [Lords.]
Cardiff Railway Bill [Lords]; Metropolitan Electric Tramways Bill [Lords]; Argentine North Eastern Railway Bill [Lords]; St. Marylebone Borough Council (Superannuation) Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Manchester Corporation Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Margate Corporation Bill. Reported, with Amendments, from the Police and Sanitary Committee; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Widnes Corporation Bill. Reported, with Amendments, from the Police and Sanitary Committee; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PETITIONS.
  COAL MINES (EIGHT HOURS) (No. 2) BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, against; to lie upon the Table.

  COAL MINES (EIGHT HOURS) (No. 2) BILL.
  Petitions in favour: From Abram; Auchinraith; Bailey Brook; Blackrod;

  969
  Brereton; Bulwell; Carlton Main; Chamber Lane; Codnor; Dearne Valley; Dechmont; Denby Hall; Giffnock; Halifax; Hartshay; Heath Hayes; Hednesford; Hewlett; Ilkeston; Jubilee; Langley; Larkhall; Littleton (two); Loscoe; Newstead; Oakwell; Pentrick; Plank Lane; Railway Pit; Ryhill; Stafford; Stanley; Stanley Common; Stotham; Tyldesley; West Cannock; Whiteley; Woodside (two); and, Wooley; to lie upon the Table.

  DAIRIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Wandsworth against; to lie upon the Table.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions in favour: From Gillingham; Peterborough; Spennymore; Westbury on Severn; and, Ystrad Meurig; to lie upon the Table.
  FOREIGN TRAWLERS REGULATION BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES BILL.
  Petition from Wandsworth, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSED PREMISES (EXCLUSION OF CHILDREN).
  Petitions for legislation: From Birmingham; and, Dundee; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against: From Althorpe; Anglesey; Ansty; Barnsley (three); Belton; Castle Eaton; Cheltenham; Cirencester; Coombe Bissett; Crowle (six); Darlington; Derrythorpe; Dinton; Dodworth; Eastoft; Epworth; Fenny Stratford; Great Brick hill; Haxey; Hitchin (three); Hunslet; Inverness; Isle of Wight; Kingsdown; Leeds (nine); Monk Bretton; Netheravon; Penrith; Platts Common; Reading; Rotherhithe; Salisbury (two); Sandtoft; Stony Stratford; Swallowcliffe; Swindon; Tadcaster; Tisbury; Wandsworth; Wetherby;
  970
  Winslow; Wolverton; Wombwell (three); and, Working; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: From Beoston; Blairgowrie; Idle; Leeds; and Lincoln; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions in favour; from Alyth; Annandale; Ardsley; Atherton (twenty); Auckland Park; Ayr; Barnsley (three); Barr; Baxenden; Beaconsfield; Beeston (two); Belfast (three); Belmont; Birkdale (three); Birmingham; Bishop Auckland (three); Blaenogwy; Blairgowrie (four); Bodewryd; Bodflordd; Bolton; Bonhill; Bootle; Beverley; Bridgeton (two); Briercliffe (four); Brighouse (two); Brora; Byers Green; Bryngwran; Brynsiencyn; Burrelton; Bury; Caergeilwg; Cathcart; Cefneithin; Cemaes (three); Cemaes Bay; Chelmsford; Chelsea; Chertsey; Chil-well; Cinderford; Clitheroe; Closburn; Cockerton; Coggeshall; Crossens; Cross Hands (five); Cwmivor; Dalmarnock; Dalmellington; Dalmuir; Dalrymple; Darlington (twenty-three); Dean Bank; Dennistoun; Denton; Deptford; Dornoch; Dumbarton (three); Dunkeld; Dyffryn Bargoed; East Grinstead; Edinburgh (five); Eldon Lane; Exeter (two); Formby; Freshwater; Fulham Cross; Gainsborough; Girvan; Glasgow (thirteen); Glen Urquhart; Gorton (two); Govan; Great Houghton; Greenhead; Greetland; Gwernogle; Halifax (five); Hanwick; Haslingden; Helensburgh; Helsby; Heneglwys; High Blantyre; Hightal; Holyhead; Honor Oak; Hopetown; Horwich (five); Ipswich; Kelty; Kelvedon; Keswick; Kexborough; Kilcreggan; Kingussie; Kirkconnel; Kirkwall (two); Lambeth Road; Lambeth; Lanark; Langholm; Langley Mill (two); Leeds (two); Leigh; Lightcliffe (two); Lincoln; Little Lever; Liverpool (three); Llanbordy; Llanddona; Llandebie; Llandilo (five); Llanfechell; Llanadwabadr; Llanstephan; Llanydthen; London; Manchester; Mauchline; Manordeilo; Mapplewell; Marlborough; Michaelstone-y-Vedw; Moffat; Mouldsworth; Muirkirk (two); Mynydd Parys; Nelson (four); New-bridge; Newcastle-on-Tyne (five); New Cathcart; Newchurch; New Cumnock; Newport (Isle of Wight) (two); Nitson; North Shields; Nottingham; Notting

  971
  Hill; Nunhead; Oakenshaw; Oldham; Openshaw; Oswestry; Parkstone; Parton; Peckham; Peckham Rye; Penybane; Penzance; Percy Main; Peterborough; Petersfield; Plumstead; Pollokshaws (two); Pollokshields; Pwll; Radcliffe; Rastrick; Rawtenstall; Reading; Rutherglen (two); Ryhill; St. Clears (two); Sancreed; Scarborough; Sevenoaks; Shanklin (two); Shildon (two); Shipley; Snailbeach; Southampton; Southport(thirty-three); Spennymore; Stair; Stirling; Stockport (four); Streatham; Street; Strickland; Sunny-brow; Tantobie; Tindale; Tootings; Tottenham (two); Tottington; Trelech; Troop; Truro (three); Tulse Hill; Tyne-mouth (three); Waterfoot; West Chilton; Westhoughton; Westminster; Whelley; White; Wigton; Wishaw; Wombwell (two); Wood Green; Woolston; and, Ystradgynlais; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL AND LIQUOR TRAFFIC (LOCAL OPTION) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions from Clydebank, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC (LOCAL OPTION) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour; From Cambuslang; Clydebank; Cornbill; Croy; Edinburgh; Galstone; Hightar; Kirkwall (two); Milnathort; and Peebles; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL.
  Petitions from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  METROPOLITAN SEWERS AND DRAINS BILL.
  Petitions from Bermondsey, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC HOUSES (EXCLUSION OF CHILDREN) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour; From Coupar Angus; and Inverness; to lie upon the Table.
  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.
  Petitions from Wandsworth, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF FOOD AND DRUGS ACT (AMENDMENT) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  Petitions in favour: From Arlington Road, N.W.; Bury; and, Wavendon; to lie upon the Table.
  WOMEN'S ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
  Petitions in favour: From Ipswich; Lambeth and other places; and, West Kensington; to lie upon the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS (RECESS).
The following Papers, presented by Command of His Majesty during the Recess, were delivered to the Librarian of the House of Commons during the Recess, pursuant to the Standing Order of the 14th August 1896.

1. Turkey (No. 2, 1908). Copy of Further Correspondence respecting Proposals by His Majesty's Government for Reforms in Macedonia.

2. Treaty Series (No. 8, 1908). Copy of Supplementary Agreement between the United Kingdom and Germany, respecting Commercial Travellers' Samples, signed at Berlin, 10th March 1908.

3. Treaty Series (No. 9, 1908). Copy of Accession of Spain to the Declaration respecting Maritime Law, signed at Paris 16th April 1856, 18th January 1908.

4. Trade Reports (Miscellaneous Series). Copy of Diplomatic and Consular Report, Miscellaneous Series, No. 667.

5. Trade Reports (Annual Series). Copies of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3969 and 3970.

6. Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) (Departmental Committee). Copy of Report of the Departmental Committee on Irish Forestry, together with Minutes of Evidence, Appendices, and Index.

7. Transvaal. Copy of Correspondence relating to the Transvaal Indentured Labour Laws Temporary Continuance Act, 1907.

8. Local Government (Scotland). Copy of Return of the Areas, Population,

973
and Valuation of Counties, Burghs, and Parishes in Scotland.

9. Judicial Statistics (England and Wales). Copy of Judicial Statistics for England and Wales, 1906. Part II. (Civil Judicial Statistics), edited by Sir John Macdonell, C.B., LL.D., Master of the Supreme Court.

10. Royal Observatory (Edinburgh). Copy of Eighteenth Annual Report of the Astronomer Royal for Scotland.

11. Cost of Living (German Towns). Copy of Report of an Inquiry by the Board of Trade into Working Class Rents, Housing, and Retail Prices, together with Rates of Wages in certain Occupations in the Principle Industrial Towns of the German Empire, with an Introductory Memorandum and a Comparison of Conditions in Germany and the United Kingdom.

Ordered, That the said Papers do lie upon the Table.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) (GENERAL REPORTS).
  Copy presented, of General Report by the Chief Inspector of the Northern and Highland Divisions of Scotland for the year 1907 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND.)
  Copy presented, of Regulations for the Preliminary Education, Training, and Certification of Teachers for various Grades of Schools, 1908 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITY OF ST. ANDREWS.
  Copy presented, of Annual Statistical Report by the University Court of the University of St. Andrews for 1906–7 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 118.]
  UNIVERSITY OF ST. ANDREWS.
  Copy presented, of Annual Report on the State of the Finances of the University for the year 1906–7 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 119.]

  NAVAL SAVINGS BANKS.
  Account presented, of Deposits in Naval Savings Banks, and the payments
  974
  thereof, and the interest thereon, etc., during the financial year 1906–7 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 120.]

  LIFE ASSURANCE COMPANIES.
  Copy presented, of Statements of Accounts, and of Life Assurance and Annuity Business and Abstracts of Actuarial Reports, deposited with the Board of Trade during the year coded 31st December, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 121.]
  MERCHANT SHIPPING (MERCANTILE MARINE FUND) ACT, 1898.
  Copy presented, of Draft Order in Council altering the Exemptions in the Second Schedule to the Act, by adding thereto Sailing Yachts not registered in the British Islands which come into territorial waters adjacent to the United Kingdom with the sole object of taking part in Yacht Racing [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  Copy presented, of Return of advances made under The Irish Land Act, 190 during the month of April, 1907 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN ENGLAND.)
  Copy presented, of Return of all Loans raised in England, chargeable on the Revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 31st March, 1908 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 122.]
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Statement showing the Cases in which the Board of Education have received applications from Local Education Authorities for Special Grants for the building of New Public Elementary Schools and the stage which each Case had reached on 31st March, 1908 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Regulations for Secondary Schools in force from 1st August, 1908, in England (excluding Wales and Monmouthshire) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Regulations for the Preliminary Education of Elementary School Teachers: (1) Pupil Teacher Regulations; (2) Bursary Regulations; (3) Student Teacher Regulations; in force from 1st August, 1908 in England (excluding Wales and Monmouthshire) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  HORSE-BREEDING (ROYAL COMMISSION.)
  Copy presented, of Twelfth Report of the Royal Commission on Horse-Breeding [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  GREEK LOAN OF 1898.
  Account presented, up to 31st March, 1908 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  EGYPTIAN GUARANTEED LOAN OF 1885.
  Account presented, up to 31st March, 1908 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
    IRISH LAND PURCHASE FUND.
    Accounts of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt in respect of the Capital and Income of the Irish Land Purchase Fund in the year ended 31st March, 1907, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 123.]

    TRAMWAYS AND LIGHT RAILWAYS (STREET AND ROAD).
    Return ordered, "of Street and Road Tramways and Light Railways authorised by Act or Order, showing the amount of capital authorised, paid up, and expended; the length of line authorised, and the length open for public traffic down to the 31st day of December, 1907, in respect of companies, and the 31st day of March, 1908, in respect of local authorities; the gross receipts, working expenditure, net receipts, and appropriation of net receipts; the number of passengers conveyed, the number of miles run by cars, and the quantity of electrical energy used during the year ended on the foregoing dates respectively; together with the number of horses, engines, and cars at those dates (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper,
    976
    No. 301, of Session 1907.")—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

    LOANS CONTRACTED BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES.
    Order [26th August, 1907] for a Return relative thereto read, and discharged; and, instead thereof:—
    Return ordered, "showing the following particulars with respect to Town Councils, other Urban District Councils, and Metropolitan Borough Councils in England and Wales, that is to say (a) area of District of each Council; (b) population of District according to the last Census; (c) rateable or assessable value of District; (d) rates in the pound of the principal rates raised in the year 1905–6, by, or for the purposes of, each Council; (e) the outstanding balance, at the end of the year 1905–6, of Loans contracted by, or repayable by, each Council, distinguishing between (1) Loans for waterworks, gasworks, electric lighting, tramways, markets, or harbours, docks, etc.; and (2) Loans for other purposes; and (f) amounts remaining in the Sinking Funds, Loans Funds, and Redemption Funds of each Council at the end of the year 1905–6."—(Mr. Henry Forster.)

    LAW CHARGES AND CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS (IRELAND).
    Return ordered, "Showing the amounts voted for Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions in Ireland in each financial year from 1881–2 to 1907–8, both inclusive, distinguishing Original from Supplementary Votes, and showing also the audited expenditure in each year, so far as practicable, and the amount surrendered to the Exchequer at the end of each year, with notes explanatory of any new charges to the Vote in the period mentioned."—(Mr. Long.)
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Telegraphic Delays at Cork Post Office.
    MR. A. ROCHE: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to complaints recently made to the authorities at the Cork post office regarding delay on Press and commercial telegrams; will he cause a Return to be kept of all delays exceeding

    977
    fifteen minutes in the despatch of commercial telegrams at Cork for one month, and to furnish an explanation for the cause of such delays, if any, and a Return of all waits given to stations working to Cork during that time; will be also give a Return of the deaths and sick leave of the Cork Post Office staff for the five years ended 31st December, 1907, as compared with the previous five years; and whether, seeing that the local medical officer attributed the increased sick leave to the hustling methods recently adopted, he will take steps to see that the Cork Post Office staff perform their work under conditions less trying to their health.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Complaints such as those to which the hon. Member refers have not recently been made either to the Postmaster of Cork, or to the Surveyor, or to me. Returns made in the ordinary course, now before me, show no undue delay, and I see no reason for having special Returns taken. Seven deaths occurred among the indoor staff at the Cork Post Office during the quinquennial period ending December, 1902, and five during the five years ending December, 1907. The average annual sick-rate during the first period was 5·2 days for men and 6·9 days for women, and during the second period 8·5 days for men and 13·1 for women. The former rates were below the average for the Irish Post Office staff generally, while the latter rates were slightly above the normal as regards men and normal as regards women. Last year the sick-rate at Cork stood lower than it did in any of the preceding four years, with the single exception of the rate for women in 1904. There is no reason to think that the conditions of working which prevail at Cork are unduly trying. The medical officer (whose views are not accurately represented in the Question) states that while some temporary cases of nervous debility among the female staff may have been due to the strain of work, he has no specific case recorded of illness attributable to that cause, and as regards the staff generally he has stated spontaneously in his annual reports to the chief medical officer throughout the last ten years, that the various duties did not appear to have any detrimental effect on their health.

    Bristol Telegraph Staff and the Efficiency Rate.
    MR. SEDDON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that at the Bristol office junior members of the staff, employed during the greater part of the year in the sorting office, have had their increments arrested for failing to pass the efficiency test required of a telegraphist regarding punching Wheatstone slip, although not yet at the efficiency bar; whether members of the staff who passed the efficiency test for their last increment have been compelled to undergo examination again before receiving their readjustment of wages under the Hobhouse scheme; and whether he can state the reason for this action at Bristol, seeing it has been taken in no other office in the country.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I have received communications on both these subjects from the Postal Telegraph Clerks' Association.

    Arming of the "Dreadnought."
    MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Board intend to take steps to re-arm the "Dreadnought" for defence against the attacks of destroyers, in view of the fact that the only guns supplied to her for this purpose are inadequate, and the "Invincible" class and all succeeding "Dreadnoughts" have been given 4-inch guns instead of 12-pounders, as in the "Dreadnought."
    (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) No, Sir. The 12-pounder gun is not considered an inadequate defence against torpedo attack.

    Acting Overseer at Belfast Post Office.
    MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General why the practice. adopted in former years of employing the senior sorting clerk and telegraphist as acting overseer is being departed from in the Belfast sorting office; and whether he is aware that this officer will be thereby deprived of the monetary advantage recommended by the Hobhouse Committee to an officer acting on a superior duty for two months.

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    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) It is the general practice not to restrict employment on substitution to the senior officer of a class, but to take all reasonable opportunity for testing the qualifications of a number of those who are approaching the top of the class. No doubt this is what has occurred at Belfast, but I am having inquiry made.

    Sick and Annual Leave of Post Office Medical Officers.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether

    Sick absence.

    Annual leave allowed.

    1903.

    1904.

    1905.

    1906.

    1907.

    Chief medical officer

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    3 days

    Nil

    5 to 6 weeks

    Second medical officer

    5 days

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    5 weeks

    Female medical officer

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    5 weeks

    Assistant female medical officer

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    5 weeks

    First assistant to medical officer

    Nil

    3 days

    Nil

    Nil

    Nil

    4 to 5 weeks

    Assitant to medical officer

    Nil

    1 day

    105 days

    Nil

    Nil

    4 to 5 weeks

    Salaries of Post Office Medical Officers.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster General, whether he will state the name, age, length of service, medical qualification, salary from Imperial funds, and emoluments from other sources, of each of the Post Office medical officers in London, male and female.
    (Answered Mr. Sydney Buxton.) There are over ninety medical officers in the London postal district in addition to the headquarters staff. The preparation of the Return asked for by the hon. Member would involve considerable labour, without, as it appears to me, leading to any very useful result.

    Duties of Chief Clerk at Cork Post Office.
    MR. A. ROCHE: To ask the Post-master-General, if he will state what are
    he will state the amount of sick leave and annual leave, respectively, of each of the Post Office medical officers in London, male and female, during each of the last five years.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I annex a statement showing the sick leave of the Post Office headquarters medical staff during the last five years, and the annual leave to which each medical officer is entitled. The third assistant medical officer and the resident medical officer have been omitted, as they have not yet been employed for a full year.
    the duties of the chief clerk of the Cork Post Office; has he any special reports showing that the present chief clerk has been mainly employed on special duties since his advent to office and his duties worked by an assistant superintendent; if so, will he create a vacancy for a first-class superintendent in addition to the existing position of chief clerk.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Since the adoption of changes recommended by the Select Committee the chief clerk at Cork has been styled "superintendent." His regular duties are similar to those performed by officers of the same rank at other offices of equal importance, and in the ordinary course it has been necessary, since the early part of last year, to require him to devote a part of his time to the carrying

    981
    out of changes in connection with the organisation and arrangements of the office. In accordance with the usual practice, some of his ordinary routine work has been delegated to the officer next in rank to him on the postal side. A revision of the indoor force is now in hand, and the question of the sufficiency or otherwise of the supervising staff will be duly considered.

    Subsistence Allowance at Cork Post Office.
    MR. A. ROCHE: To ask the Postmaster General whether a subsistence allowance is given to established officers on temporary relief duty; and, if so, will he explain why this subsistence allowance has been withheld from three juniors clerks in the Cork Post Office who were appointed to the establishment whilst on relief duty.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) It is the case that an allowance for subsistence is given to established officers when sent out for temporary duty at places other than their headquarters. The three officers referred to by the hon. Member were learners at Cork when they accepted the offer of temporary employment elsewhere, and for such employment they were paid the usual inclusive wages of 25s. a week. In each case their appointment to the establishment was made after their return to Cork, but was allowed to bear an earlier date in consideration of their long service as learner.

    Overseers performing Operators work at Cork Post Office.
    MR. A. ROCHE: To ask the Postmaster-General if the superintendent of telegraphs and some of the overseers in the Cork telegraphs are at present daily performing, for considerable periods, the work of ordinary telegraph operators, and, if so, will he consider the necessity of increasing the Cork telegraph staff, as the employment of these officials as operators is an economic loss to the Department.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The hon. Member appears to have been misinformed. I am assured that it is not a fact that the superintendent of telegraphs and some of the overseers
    982
    at Cork are at present daily performing, for considerable periods, the work of ordinary operators. Indeed, under normal conditions the present force of sorting clerks and telegraphists on the telegraph side at Cork is in excess of the requirements, and it is proposed to adjust it in connection with a revision now in hand. Of course, on exceptional occasions, it is not at all unusual for a supervising officer at any office to render temporary assistance at the instruments for a short time, provided that the proper supervision of the duties is not thereby interfered with, and this seems to have been the case at Cork.

    Overtime for Mechanic at Manchester Post Office.
    MR. BYLES: To ask the Postmaster-General, if he is aware that the superintending engineer at Manchester is bringing a mechanic on duty one and a half hours earlier than the stated hour for commencing duty and refuses to pay overtime for the extra time worked; and will he give instructions that overtime be paid.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The mechanic in question was brought on duty one hour before his usual time from the 20th to the 30th ultimo and released an hour before his usual time of departure; on the 31st ultimo and 1st instant, he was brought on duty an hour and a half before his usual time and released correspondingly early. His normal hours of duty were in no case exceeded, and the question of payment for overtime does not therefore arise.

    Alleged Sweating in the Post Office.
    MR. JOHN O'DONNELL: To ask the Postmaster-General whether at the inquiry into the grievances of Post Office officials in 1906, a distinct promise was made by the Secretary to the Post Office that all assistants employed at head offices and at sub-offices paid on the head-office system would be forthwith placed on the establishment; whether, considering these assistants have been and are still performing exactly similar duties to the established force, they are still obliged to work on Sundays without payment, and during sickness one-third of their pay is stopped, and a reduced

    983
    rate of payment is made them for work performed on Bank Holidays and Christmas Day; if so, when will these officials be placed on the established force; whether their appointments will date from the time the promise was made, and whether an immediate stop will be put to the sweating or cheap labour system in the Post Office.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The Question does not correctly represent the evidence to which it refers. The recommendations of the Select Committee in regard to assistants at head and salaried sub-offices, paragraphs 396–398 of their Report, will be fully carried out.

    Licensing Compensation at Miskin Higher.
    MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the two alehouses in the division of Miskin Higher, in the County of Glamorgan, the renewal of whose licences was refused in 1906, and in respect to which the sum of £125 was paid in compensation to the licensees, were tied houses, and whether the balance of the total compensation of £1,300 went wholly to the owners of the properties; if he can state what compensation was paid in 1905 in respect to the refusal to renew licences in the divisions of Miskin Higher and Caerphilly Higher, and how much of the total went to the licensees and how much to other parties; and how many licences were refused in those divisions in 1907 for which compensation was paid.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) All the information available on the subject of this Question is given in the annual volumes of Licensing Statistics. I regret that I cannot give further details in regard to individual premises. The volumes show (1) that the two houses referred to in the first part of the Question were beerhouses, they were not "alehouses," i.e., fully licensed premises; (2) that no licences were refused, subject to compensation, in the licensing districts of Miskin Higher and Caerphilly Higher in the year 1905; and (3) that in the year 1907, in these districts, four alehouses and twelve beerhouses were so refused, the compensation in respect of
    984
    two and six of these houses, respectively, being paid before the end of the year.

    Mines (Eight Hours) Bill.
    MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will say on what date it is proposed that the Mines (Eight Hours) Bill should come into operation.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I have decided to propose an amendment to the Bill relating to the date of its operation, so as to provide that in any event, no change shall be effected by it until after 30th June, 1909.

    Increased Salaries in the Irish Agricultural Department.
    MR. DELANY: To ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is aware that in the Agricultural Department during the coming financial year the expenditure will show an increase of approximately £5,000, applied towards raising the salaries of the higher officials; and whether he will give the names of the higher officials whose salaries are thus to be increased, with the amount of increase in each case, and also the names of the officials on whose recommendation the Department adopted these proposals.
    (Answered by Mr. T. W. Russell.) The hon. Member is misinformed. The increase of £5,007 in the provision for salaries and wages in the Department's Estimate for 1908–9 includes: (1) the automatic increments of the salaries of officers of all grades who are on authorised scales of salary and are not at the maximum of the respective scales; (2) the additional charge required for the operation of the new scale for Second Division clerks throughout the Civil Service generally, sanctioned under Order in Council of 21st December, 1907; (3) the cost of additional necessary appointments. The number of special increases in the salaries of higher officials is six, and the amount is £584. These increases were recommended to the Treasury by myself on being satisfied of the merits of each case. The particulars are as follows:—Secretarv, £200; Chief veterinary inspector, £100; two fisheries inspectors, £50 each

    985
    on promotion; one technical instruction inspector, £155 on promotion from post of junior inspector to that of inspector of technical instruction. One agricultural inspector, £29 on promotion from post of junior inspector to that of agricultural inspector.

    The Ameer of Afghanistan and the Anglo-Russian Convention.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY (St. Andrews Burghs): To ask the Secretary of State for India, whether His Majesty's Government has now received the views of the Ameer of Afghanistan with regard to the Anglo-Russian Convention of August 1907; and whether he has signified his assent to the Afghan clauses of that treaty.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The Answer is in the negative.

    Kilpatrick Cemetery.
    MR. DUNDAS WHITE: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Old Kilpatrick Parish Council has recently had to purchase land for a cemetery; and, if so, when was the purchase effected, what was the area of the land, what was the annual value of it as entered in the valuation roll, and what was the price which the parish council had to pay for it.
    (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) I am informed that the parish council resolved to make the purchase on 24th March. The area is 9½ acres. There is no entry in the valuation roll showing the value of this subject per acre, but it is believed to be about £2 5s. The price agreed upon was £460 per acre.

    Licensing Compensation.
    MR. W. T. WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state the total amount of compensation paid for the licences that were extinguished in the years 1905, 1906, and 1907; the amount paid to licence holders who were also the tenants; the amount paid as compensation to the owners of tied houses; and the amount paid to the tenants of those houses, and to other parties interested in them.
    986
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The annual volumes of Licensing Statistics (see, for instance, page 5 of the volume for 1907), show that a total sum of £2,301,583 4s. 10d. was paid in compensation for licences extinguished in the years 1905, 1906, and 1907, and that, of the money which was paid in the years 1906 and 1907, a total sum of £241,004 9s. 3d. went to licence holders, and £1,947,343 19s. 8d. to other parties interested. I am unable to give figures distinguishing between licence holders who were tenants and those who were not, or between "tied" and other houses.
    MR. CLOUGH: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can state how many licensed houses in the petty sessional divisions of East Staincliffe, West Staincliffe, Ewecross, and Bolton by Bowland, in the West Riding, have been closed under the Licensing Act, 1904; what amount was paid for compensation in respect of each house; what proportion of the money went to the owner of the house and to the tenant respectively; and what is the ratio of public-houses to population and the density of population in each of those areas.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The annual volumes of Licensing Statistics show that no licences were refused subject to compensation in any of the districts named in 1905 or 1906. In 1907, five alehouse licences in the East Staincliffe district were so refused, and four were paid for and closed before the termination of the year, the total amount of compensation being £3,651, of which a total sum of £550, or 15·06 per cent., was paid to licensees, leaving £3,101 for other parties. I am unable to give figures for individual houses. In the Ewecross division in 1907 one alehouse licence was refused and paid for, the amount of compensation being £826, of which the licensee was awarded £82 12s., or 10 per cent. (Licensing Statistics, 1907, page 91). Pages 68 and 69 of the same volume show the numbers of on-licences on 1st January, 1907, and the population and acreage (according to the Census of 1901) in these petty sessional

    987
    divisions, from which the ratios result:—

    On Licences per 10,000 of Population.

    Persons per acre.

    East Staincliffe

    25·12

    ·28

    West Staincliffe

    29·77

    ·09

    Ewecross

    37·14

    ·09

    Bolton - by Bowland

    50·04

    ·06

    Clubs struck off the Register.
    MR. CLOUGH: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will issue forthwith a Return of all clubs where intoxicants were sold that have been struck off the register throughout England and Wales, under the provisions of the Licensing Act, 1902, and showing under which particular provisions of the Act they were struck off the register.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The numbers of clubs struck off the register are shown for every licensing district in the Annual Volumes of Licensing Statistics, Table V., and are summarised in the Introduction. I do not possess the further information asked for in the Question, and, after making inquiry, I find that I could not now obtain the information necessary to make a complete or useful Return.

    Condition of Courtown Harbour.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if his attention has been called to the present condition of Courtown Harbour; if the Department is aware of the state of that harbour, and of the nature of the improvements required there; and if he proposes to take any action in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. T. W. Russell.) The attention of the Department has been called to the present condition of Courtown Harbour. The maintenance of the harbour is vested in the county council. The Department assisted the county council on previous occasions in clearing away the bar which from time to time forms across the harbour mouth.
    988
    Owing to the nature of the case all suck assistance must be only of temporary utility. The Department cannot at present render immediate assistance at Courtown, as the steam crane which was formerly used there is engaged elsewhere, but they will communicate with the county council and see if any relief of the situation can be arranged for.

    Importation of Carcases of Calves from Holland and Belgium.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he is aware that carcases of calves are imported from Holland and Belgium with the skins on; whether his experts consider it safe to allow this importation from a country where cattle disease exists; and whether he will make inquiries and regulations regarding it.
    (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The subject to which my hon. friend refers has been frequently under consideration, but it has not been thought necessary or practicable to place restrictions on the trade in dead meat. The carcases in question seldom, if ever, come in contact with animals, and no, outbreak of disease has been circumstantially traced to them.

    Exchequer and Audit Department Staff.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the members of the old examiner class in the Exchequer and Audit Department at the time of the 1905 reorganisation were informed by the Comptroller and Auditor-General that facilities would be given them if they wished to retire, as they could expect to derive no benefit from the then contemplated reorganisation; if so, whether he will explain how the holding out of these facilities and of no prospects of advancement were in the interests of these officials; and whether he will further explain how this procedure can be reconciled with the subsequent promotion of two members of this class.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I beg to refer the hon. Member to my replies of 24th June and 6th August last, to which I have nothing to add.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury why Messrs. Baker M'Kown, Hunt, Corbet, Adams, and Pool were recently passed over in making promotions in the Exchequer and Audit Department; and whether, having regard to the discontent caused in departments generally, and in this department in particular, since the appointment of the present Assistant Comptroller and Auditor, by the present system of selection in making promotions, he will endeavour to induce the Government to set up a special Court of Appeal to whom aggrieved Civil servants may refer their cases when they think heads of Departments have acted vindictively or unjustly towards them.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that Messrs. Knowles, Hurley, and Brown, of the Exchequer and Audit Department, were passed over for promotion on 1st November last, that their principal clerks admitted that they had not been consulted with reference to such promotions from 1st November, 1906, to 1st November, 1907, and that the comparative merits of members of any Department can be known only by the respective chiefs under whom they immediately serve, he will now cause an independent inquiry to be made into the subject of such promotions in the Exchequer and Audit Department.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will explain the system of promotion in the Exchequer and Audit Department under which Messrs. Reynolds, Day, Rainbott, Litten, Borthwick, Cope, Varian, Cato, and Smith have recently been passed over; and, seeing that the passing over of capable and efficient officers causes much unrest amongst these and other members of this Department and militates against its efficiency, and that a reference to the Comptroller and Auditor-General will merely produce a defence of his own action, will he cause independent inquiry to be made, with a view to the securing of an impartial judgment on the subject.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) For an Answer to these three Questions I must refer the hon. Member to my reply
    990
    of 28th August last. To that reply I have nothing to add except to express my regret that the forms of the House should be used to cast an imputation, which I believe to be wholly unfounded, on an official of so high character and. with so distinguished a record as the Assistant Comptroller and Auditor. I see no reason for the suggested inquiry.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the son of the Comptroller and Auditor-General's private secretary failed to pass the preliminary examination for the Second Division, which consisted of three subjects, handwriting, orthography, and simple arithmetic, the examiners being the Civil Service Commissioners; if so, will he say what were the subjects of the educational test this nominated gentleman passed on entering the old Colonial Audit Branch, and who were the examiners; and whether this gentleman has now the option of serving in the newly amalgamated Colonial Audit Branch and Exchequer and Audit Department on similar duties to those performed by his open-competition contemporaries, but with nearly twice the salary of any one of them.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The suggestions in the Question are entirely without foundation.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in reference to a request for investigation into the cases of men in the Exchequer and Audit Department who have been passed over for promotion, and which involved the mention of their names, he will say if any of these men have spontaneously come forward and expressed disapproval of this request for investigation; and, seeing that the future career of all the men passed over is largely in the hands of their principal clerks, and that the principal clerk of the Fifth Division of the Exchequer and Audit Department sent for certain of these men who work under him and asked them whether they disapproved of this request for investigation, will he say whether it is intended to attach any importance to any expression of disapproval obtained under such circumstances; and whether the

    991
    Comptroller and Auditor-General or the Assistant Comptroller and Auditor were aware of the action of the principal clerk referred to.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The facts are misrepresented in the Question, but many of the officers mentioned have come forward and expressed their strong objection to the unauthorised use of their names by the hon. Member.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the present Assistant Comptroller and Auditor was appointed by the permanent officials of the Treasury; what positions did he occupy prior to his present appointment, and for what length of time did he hold each of such positions; and what were his qualifications for the post of Assistant Comptroller and Auditor.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Assistant Comptroller and Auditor-General was appointed by the Crown on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, and there is no foundation for the suggestion in the first part of the Question. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by making inquiries on the other matters referred to by the hon. Member.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that the present Comptroller and Auditor-General on his appointment entered into a compact with the Treasury to retire at the age of sixty-five, he will state the age of this gentleman; and whether he intends to adhere to the terms of this compact.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that the present Comptroller and Auditor-General on his appointment entered into a compact with the Treasury to retire at the age of sixty-five, he will say if the terms of this compact further included the stipulation that he was to act as the nominal head of the Exchequer and Audit Department, and that the Assistant Comptroller and Auditor should be the actual head.
    992
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I have nothing to add to the numerous replies already given on this subject.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will state the actual hours of attendance of the principal clerk of the Fifth Division in the Exchequer and Audit Department, his actual hours of attendance as secretary to the Royal Almoner, and the annual emoluments he receives for each of those two positions.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) This officer, like all other members of the Department, is required to give a daily attendance of seven hours. The scales of pay of principal clerks in the Exchequer and Audit Department are shown in the Parliamentary Estimates. I have no information as to the emoluments of the secretary of the Lord High Almoner, which are not provided out of voted moneys, nor as to the attendance required, which, as I have previously informed the hon. Member, is performed outside the regular office hours.

    Auditing of Irish Public Accounts.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that the present system of auditing the Irish public accounts in London causes duplication of work and waste of public money, and that Ireland loses £10,000 per annum by having this Irish work done in London, he will further consider the advisability of having this Irish work done in Ireland.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I have nothing to add to the previous replies which I have given on this question.

    Wages of Government Workers in Dublin.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that, with reference to the Report of the Board of Trade on the subject of rents paid and the general cost of living in certain large towns in Great Britain and Ireland as they affect the working classes, the combined figures of rent and prices of commodities being taken as 100 in London, the figures for Dublin are ninety-four, or only 6 per cent. below London, he will say why the watchers in the

    993
    Dublin Customs have only 21s. a week, the Dublin park workers only 16s. a week, the A. O. D., Dublin, only 20s. a week, whilst the London Customs watchers get 24s. a week, the London park workers 24s. to 26s. a week, and the A. O D.., Woolwich, 23s. a week; and why the wages of Government workers in the London area are from 15 to 33 per cent. higher than those paid in Dublin.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) Having regard to the general level of wages in Dublin I think that the rates 'paid to the several classes of employees referred in the Question are adequate, and I cannot enter into a comparison with the rates paid in London.

    Religious Education of Pauper Children.
    MR. W. BENN: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been directed to a case which recently came before the board of guardians of St. George's in the East, in which the father of three children admitted to the workhouse desired that they would be brought up in the Roman Catholic faith, that being the faith of their mother and that in which they themselves had been baptised; whether, because the father was described as Church of England on admission, the Local Government Board refused to permit the guardians to bring the children up as Roman Catholics; and whether the guardians would be able, under the Poor Law Amendment Act, 1868, to bring up the children in the faith the father desired.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Section 17 of the Poor Law Amendment Act, 1868, requires in regard to any child in a workhouse under twelve years of age, that the master of the workhouse shall enter in the creed register as the religious creed of the child the religious creed of the father, if the master knows or can ascertain the same by reasonable inquiry. In the present case it appears that the father is a Protestant, and I presume he belongs to the Church of England. It would seem, therefore, that the entry in the creed register in respect
    994
    of the religious creed of the children was correct. The attention of the Local Government Board was called to the case. They pointed out the effect of the section to which I have referred, but they did not refuse to permit the guardians to bring up the children as Roman Catholics, nor do they propose to interfere in the matter.

    Public Health Act, 1907—Regulations.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is in a position to say when the regulations in connection with the Public Health (Regulation of Foods) Act, 1907, will be published.

    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The regulations are in an advanced state of preparation, and I hope they will shortly be issued.

    Inspection of Imported Meat.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Glasgow veterinary surgeon is of opinion that all meat imported from over seas ought to be presented for examination in such form as would enable inspectors here to revise the previous work of inspection and thus form a fair idea as to the wholesomeness for human food, and that all boneless meat or scrap should be entirely excluded; and whether the Government will consider the advisability of appointing and paying such a staff of inspectors.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) My attention has been called to this Report. I propose that the regulations under the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Act which I have in preparation should deal with imported boneless scrap meat. Other matters relating to the wholesomeness of imported meat are receiving my attention, but I do not think that inspection of the kind referred to in the last part of the Question would be practicable at the present time.

    Drainage of the River Robe.
    MR. JOHN O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware

    995
    that thousands of pounds worth of property has been annually destroyed on the land of the small farmers who live in the vicinity of the River Robe, in the Claremorris Union, county Mayo; whether petitions have been lodged with the Congested Districts Board asking that body to do something towards remedying the condition of affairs existing all over that district; and whether more than a year ago a promise was made by the Board to assist in the drainage of that river; and, if so, what is the reason they have failed to redeem their promise in a matter of urgency to numbers of poor people.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Congested Districts Board have been urged to undertake drainage operations on the upper reaches of the River Robe for the benefit of the congested districts through which the river flows, including some of the Board's estates. About 11½ miles of the lower portion of the river is already under the control of local drainage trustees. In July, 1906, the Board made an offer to the Claremorris Rural District Council to contribute two-thirds of the estimated cost of £3,500, provided that a drainage board should be formed which would undertake to carry out the proposed works on the upper part of the river and be afterwards responsible for their proper maintenance. It would seem to be for the district council to consider whether they can comply with the conditions upon which the Board made their offer of assistance.

    Sale of the Island Farm, Knox Estate.
    MR. JOHN O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that about three years ago the Island farm, consisting of about 400 acres of good land, on the Knox estates, near Ballyhaunis, county Mayo, was purchased by the Congested Districts Board; that this farm has since then been grazed and managed by the Board, and that the greatest desire exists on the part of the tenants in the neighbourhood to have this farm broken up, so that there may be an enlargement of the, holdings on which they try to live suitably to their requirements, and that they have on
    996
    many occasions asked the Board to carry out their wishes in this respect without result; and whether, in view of this treatment of these tenants, owing to the delay in the breaking up of this farm, he will have steps taken to have the places divided forthwith, so that each tenant might improve his portion in his own way and prevent further pain and disappointment to the tenantry.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The estate in question is for sale in the Land Judge's Court. The Congested Districts Board were negotiating for its purchase, but for reasons already fully stated they have been obliged to postpone making an offer in consequence of the state of their funds. The Board, therefore, are in the position of grazing tenants pending the sale to them of the estate. No steps for the division of the land can be taken until the sale to them has been effected.

    Economic Holdings at Kilmaine.
    MR. JOHN O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, when the grazing farms in the parish of Kilmaine, Ballinrobe Union, and County of Mayo, are being divided, he will give instructions to the Congested Districts Board to see that the needs of the people of the parish will be properly attended to, with a view to creating a sufficient number of economic holdings to provide those who are now living on miserable patches with enough land to live on before applications from others will be granted.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Congested Districts Board have postponed the distribution of the lands in their possession at Kilmaine until the Report of the Royal Commission on Congestion has been received and considered. Under the existing law the Board have no power to enlarge holdings over £5 valuation in non-congested districts.

    Sale of the Begley Estate, Iskerlavally.
    MR. JOHN O'DONNELL:: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the landlord of the Begley estate, Iskerlavally, in the

    997
    Claremorris Union, offered the property for sale to the Congested Districts Board; whether the tenants have agreed to leave the matter in the hands of the Board; and, seeing that the estate is much congested, and that both parties have agreed to have the purchase carried out through that body, and that necessity for the relief of congestion exists on that estate, he will see that instructions to the Board's officials to proceed with the work will not be further withheld.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) For reasons which I have already fully stated to the House, the Congested Districts Board have been obliged to suspend negotiations for purchase in the case of this and other tenanted estates.

    Labourers Act Inquiry at Mullingar.
    SIR WALTER NUGENTTo ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state why, at the recent Local Government inquiry held under the Labourers Act at Mullingar, five bona fide applicants for labourerś cottages on nonresidential grazing land were rejected, the said land being situated in the town-land of Rathunre and electoral division of Clonfad, and this nothwithstanding the fact that there is considerable tillage in the neighbourhood for which additional labourers are required.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Local Government Board assume that the five cases alluded to in the Question are those in which applications were made for cottages on the property of Mr. C. B. Marlay in the townland of Rathnure. The inspector considered that the necessity for the proposed cottages was not established. The applicants were young single men, who were living with their parents, and for whom house accommodation did not appear to be particularly required.

    Non-Production of Vouchers by the Rathmines and Rathgar Urban Council.
    MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that certain vouchers have been withheld from the ratepayers by the
    998
    Rathmines and Rathgar Urban Council, contrary to the provisions of Article 27 of the Public Bodies Order, 1904; that ratepayers, viz., Messrs. O'Ratigan, Sullivan, and O'Driscoll, have complained to the Local Government Board on this matter with reference to the audit of the 31st March, 1907; and that the Local Government Board has failed to decide on the grievance as to the non-production of vouchers, and has failed to give any redress to the aggrieved ratepayers; and will the correspondence as to the non-production of vouchers at the audit of the Rathmines and Rathgar Urban Council's accounts for the year ended the 31st March, 1907, between the Local Government Board and the above ratepayers, between the said Board and the Rathmines Urban Council, and between the said Board and the auditor, Mr. John L. King, and all reports connected therewith, be laid upon the Table of the House.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am informed that all the vouchers which the auditor considered necessary for the purpose of the audit were produced to him. Complaint has been made to the Local Government Board that certain documents in the nature of subsidiary vouchers for the payment of expenses incurred in the promotion of local Bills by the urban council were withheld. These subsidiary vouchers were produced to the Taxing Master of the House of Commons, and the auditor did not demand their reproduction, as he did not consider them necessary for the purpose of the audit. The Local Government Board have no power to compel the production of these documents. As regards the concluding portion of the Question, the correspondence between the Local Government Board and the ratepayers mentioned is, of course, in the possession of these ratepayers, who are at liberty to publish it, and the correspondence between the Board and the urban council can be inspected by any local government elector under Article 19 (4) of the Application of Enactments Order, 1898. It would be contrary to practice to publish any communications which pass between the Board and any of their auditors. In the circumstances the reply to the last part of the Question must be in the negative.

    Largy Schoolmaster.
    MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, if he will state the result of the inquiries of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland into the connection between the teacher of Largy School, County Antrim, and the adjacent public-house; is the name of the publican also the name of the schoolmaster, and, if not in fact the same person, what relation is the publican to the schoolmaster; where does the publican reside, and who manages the public-house; and will he inquire as to these matters from the local police if the Commissioners are not aware of the facts.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Commissioners of National Education inform me that, as the result of their inquiries, they have ascertained the following facts in connection with this case: the school is situate within a few yards of a public-house; the licensed publican is John Rainey, who is father of the teacher, William John Rainey; the licensed person does not reside on the premises but on his farm; the teacher's sister resides in the public-house and manages it; the teacher's wife and children reside in the public house when living in the locality, but it does not appear that the teacher himself lives there; he rents a room in a cottage in which he sleeps and takes his breakfast; he states that he is a teetotaller and has been so all his life. The Commissioners have taken measures to enforce a strict observance in future of the rule in this case.

    Payment of Local Government Auditors.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the auditors of the Local Government Board of England are paid by the local bodies for the work they do on a fixed scale of moderate charges; whether the auditors in Ireland have fixed salaries; whether he can state how the fees paid by local bodies are accounted for; whether in Scotland the Local Government Board appoints registered accountants for auditing; whether he will cause the practice in Ireland to be assimilated with that of either England or Scotland; and whether he will arrange that the Local
    1000
    Government Board auditors in Ireland shall confine themselves simply to the duty of auditing.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrel.) Local Government Board auditors are paid by salary in England and Ireland alike, but the Irish scale of salaries is lower than the English. The audit fees paid by local bodies in Ireland are appropriated in aid of the Parliamentary Vote of the Local Government Board. In Scotland the Local Government Board appoints registered accountants for auditing. The practice in Ireland is similar to that which obtains in England, and is considered more suitable to the circumstance of Ireland than the Scottish practice. Moreover, any change in this regard would require legislation. The duties of auditors in Ireland are prescribed by statute, and include reporting on the financial administration of the local authorities, as well as vouching the correctness of the accounts.

    SELECTION STANDING COMIMETTES.
    Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON reported from the Committee of Selection That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B (in respect of the Children Bill): Mr. Solicitor-General, Mr. Whitbread, and, Mr. Mond; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the Children Bill): Mr. Bramsdon, Mr. Fiennes, and, Mr. Percy Barlow.
    Report to lie upon the Table.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. GEORGE WHITELEY, Yorkshire, W. R., Pudsey), in moving that the House do now adjourn to 27th April, said that the first business after the recess would be the Second Reading of the Licensing Bill.
  MR. SPEAKER: The Motion of the right hon. Gentleman is a little previous. As the House is aware, we are in expectation of a message to attend a Royal Commission in the House of Peers. On my return I will call on the right hon. Gentleman.

  ADJOURNMENT.

    ROYAL ASSENT.
    Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
    The House went; and, being returned;
    Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—1. Army (Annual) Act, 1908. 2. Herne Bay Pier Act, 1908.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEYthen moved the adjournment of the House until 27th April.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn till Monday 27th April."—(Mr. George Whiteley.)
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEasked as to the ballot. He presumed that it was intended to have a ballot for notices of Motion on the day on which the House reassembled. His point was that there would only be one day's notice between that date and the first private Members' night.
  MR. WALTER LONG: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer—to whom I desire to offer the warmest possible congratulations upon his accession to that office, which I am sure he will fill with the utmost credit to the country and himself—if he can tell us a little more about the business than the information contained in the somewhat bald, and, so far as I know, quite unprecedented statement on the part of the Patronage Secretary in regard to business when the House meets again? I do not think there is any precedent for the House finding itself in the position in which we find ourselves. The whole circumstances of the case are exceptional. A programme of business had been arranged leading up to the adjournment, and it had been intimated in the usual way that following the adjournment the business would be, as it generally is, of a non-controversial character for the first few days pending the reassembling of Ministers. We are now met with the very simple statement of the Patronage Secretary—it is more of a fighting announcement than a statement of business—that the first business of the House will be the Licensing
  1002
  Bill. Does that mean that the Second Reading of the Licensing Bill will be taken de die in diem for the first week after we meet? Does it therefore mean that Thursday, which is usually given to Supply, will be devoted to the Licensing Bill, if necessary, and are we to have no information until after we reassemble in regard, first of all, to the introduction of the Budget—which is obviously a matter on which the House ought to have some information before it meets after Easter—and also in regard to the Second Reading of the Miners (Eight Hours) Bill? The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer will realise, I am sure, that the House ought not to separate without Members knowing more as to the arrangements for the business of the House, so that they may make their plans to be here on the days on which special business is to be taken.
  MR. SPEAKER: In reply to the question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean, I think the most convenient plan will be to take the ballot after Question time on Monday, and it will then be open for two or three days, so that Members who are successful can take their choice of days.
  SIR GEORGE DOUGHTY: Can the right hon. Gentleman also say when the Education Bill will be taken?
  MR. BURDETT-COUTTS: As it has been announced that the Licensing Bill is to be the first measure taken after we meet on the 27th, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman who is now leading the House, and whom I, in an unofficial sense, beg heartily to congratulate on his promotion, whether it would not be advisable that we should have some statement as to the exact measure of the extensive modifications which we understand are to be made in the Licensing Bill?
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman should think my statement unduly bald. I limited my remarks when I first moved the adjournment, because I had nothing else to say, and I thought what I had said was sufficiently explanatory. The Licensing Bill will be taken on the Monday that we reassemble. I am

  1003
  quite aware it is rather unusual that a big Bill of that character should be taken, but the right hon. Gentleman must remember we have lost ten valuable days, and that if we do not press on with the important Bills, we shall find at the end of the session we have not achieved the legislation we desire to achieve. The division, we hope, may take place on the Wednesday night. Whether the Leader of the House will see fit to give Thursday or not I cannot say, but, as a rule, these are matters that are arranged between the Chief Whips of the Parties during the course of the Second Reading discussion of a Bill. If there were really a demand and a necessity for Thursday, I do not suppose the Premier would oppose it. With regard to the Miners' Eight Hours Bill no arrangement can be made beyond the first week. That statement necessarily applies also to the Education Bill and the Budget. The Government plans do not extend beyond the first week; but in all probability, as soon as possible after the first week, the Budget will be taken. With regard to modifications in the Licensing Bill, so far as I am concerned, there are none.
  MR. WALTER LONG: Has the right hon. Gentleman realised that Wednesday night is a private Members' night, and therefore the suggestion which comes from him as Chief Government Whip is that we should debate the main Bill of the session on the Monday and Tuesday and divide at eight o'clock on the Wednesday? Surely that can hardly be a serious proposition.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: The right hon. Gentleman is a good hand at making a bargain, and it is not usual to give away, in the first instance, all one is perhaps prepared to give in the end.
  SIR GEORGE DOUGHTY: Is there any truth in the report that the Education Bill is to be dropped?
  EARL WINTERTON: Is the Housing Bill to be taken in the first fortnight after the recess?
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: We hope to take it as soon as we possibly can.
  EARL WINTERTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman make an announcement on the Monday as to when these Bills will be taken?
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: An announcement will be made in the usual way on the Thursday.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he wished to put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and at the same time to apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for having been unable to give him notice. During the last few weeks there had been a disturbance of industrial conditions, particularly in the county of Kent, one of the boroughs of which he had the honour of representing in that House. He referred to the hop industry. [Laughter.] Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen might consider that a laughing matter, but he represented a borough in a county the people of which looked on it as a very serious matter, and he was quite certain that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not look upon it as either trivial or unimportant. [A voice: What is your question?] He presumed he had the privilege of putting his question in his own way. [Cries of "No speech."] He thought he was entitled to make a speech, and he proposed to do so. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had been used to dealing with emergencies, and no doubt, during his tenure of his new office, he would have to deal with a great many more. Let them consider the action be had taken, for instance, with regard to patents and to merchant shipping. That action had been absolutely independent of what might be called Party feelings or Party considerations. The right hon. Gentleman had looked at the interests of those engaged in the industries of the country from the standpoint of patriotism. He submitted that the question he was about to put to the right hon. Gentleman was one of grave importance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and many of those who sat upon the Treasury Bench had again and again said that, in any case of undue competition—in any case of dumping which was clearly proved—the intervention of the Government could be made independently of legislation. That was said by the late Prime Minister and by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, both of whom stated that it was in the

  1005
  power of the Government, in case of any undue disturbance of industrial conditions, to take action without legislation. Ho submitted to the House that in this case there was imminent danger of injury to the industry concerned. Hon. Gentlemen sitting below the gangway, when workmen were discharged from Woolwich recently, raised the question in the House as one of imminent danger; they moved the adjournment and asked the Government to intervene. Within the last three weeks there had been dumped down on the shores of the Thames something like 8,000 tons of hops to be sold at 25s. a cwt., which was something like 17s. per cwt. less than the cost at which the hops could be produced in the county of Kent. Had that price of 25s. been the normal price produced by the ordinary competition of business, he would not have been disposed to raise the question. [A voice: Are they new hops?] The 8,000 tons, which had been dumped down on British soil to compete with British hops, were the excess production of the United States, where they would bring a larger sum than in England. Did not the Chancellor of the Exchequer consider this a serious question? He believed there would be during the next fortnight something like 15,000 tons of hops dumped down upon our soil to compete with hops grown in the county of Kent. In the past the hop industry had been one of great importance. During late years it had declined, and the right hon. Gentleman should know that something like 8,000 families had been thrown out of employment by the grubbing of 23,000 acres under hop cultivation in Kent. Last year 1,700 acres of land which had been under hop cultivation were grubbed, and the consequent loss to British workingmen alone represented about £600,000. The dumping down of these 8,000 tons at the present time was making it impossible for those who grew lops in, the county of Kent to make a living thereby. It was within the power of the right hon. Gentleman to deal with this serious situation and to put an end to the dumping down of these hops. It was in his power to prevent it. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman had followed very closely the inquiry going on upstairs into the condition of the hop industry, and if he had not read all the evidence
  1006
  he probably knew the general trend of it. He would know, too, that the hop growers in the county of Kent could not compete with the American growers if the latter were thus allowed to dump down here their surplus production. The right hon. Gentleman had to consider the whole subject. It was not a question of putting a permanent tax upon hops, though he believed there were among hon. Members sitting behind the right hon. Gentlemen some who advocated such a course when their own particular industry was touched. He understood that the hon. Gentleman who represented the Faversham division of Kent, in which hops were grown, strongly advocated a tax upon hops. He believed, too, that the hon. Member for Macclesfield, where silks were manufactured, also asked for a tax to be put upon silks. But he was not asking that in regard to hops. What he was asking was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should deal with an abnormal situation. The right hon. Gentleman might ask how he was to do it. He would refer him to the speeches of his Leader, the Prime Minister, and of his ex-Leader, the late Prime Minister, both of whom had said in that House that if a case of dumping occurred it was not necessary to ask Parliament for any legislation, but that it could be dealt with through the Treasury itself without legislation. Possibly the right hon. Gentleman had not found it possible as yet to avail himself of the information possessed by his predecessors in office, but he submitted to him that what he was asking was founded upon principles which they who held views as strongly as he and his friends did on tariff reform had every right to urge upon him. If the right hon. Gentleman could not take action in such a case of excessive dumping, what did his leaders mean when they said that in such cases of special injury to British industry the Treasury could intervene without having to ask the assent of Parliament? Would the right hon. Gentleman seriously consider the situation? If Workmen, were; thrown out Of work—Whether they were hop growers or Woolwich artisans; it was all the same thing—if they were thrown out of work by unfair and undue competition, had the Government no answer, and had the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his hands no remedy whatever to enable him to deal with such a situation? The present

  1007
  situation was abnormal, but if this dumping of hops was to be persisted in it would become normal, and it would mean the steady and absolute destruction of hop production in this country, and the expatriation of the people now employed in the production of the hops, or else their absorption in that vast army of unemployed on which the Government were prepared to expend large sums of money every year. He put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he could not possibly begin his career as a Minister at the head of a great office concerned with the industrial interests of the country better than by dealing with such a situation as this, and he asked him for a frank and direct answer, such as he was accustomed to give when President of the Board of Trade, as to whether he intended to act upon the professed policy of the Government in the past, a policy which he had no reason to believe had been changed.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE, Carnarvon Boroughs): I am not sure that I am entitled to speak as Chancellor of the Exchequer at this moment; I am only Chancellor-designate. I thank the right hon. Gentleman and the House for the very kind way in which they have received me. I agree with the hon. Member for Gravesend that this is a very important matter. I should be the last man in the world to minimise anything which affects British industry. I should have thought it important enough for me to have notice of it. It is very difficult for me, on a highly technical matter of this sort, to give—
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I will only say I was ignorant of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman would be here to-day. I thought he would have to go to his constituency, or I should certainly have given him notice.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: At the present moment I have not taken up my quarters at the Treasury, and I have only followed this matter in a general way, though with great interest. I agree that it is a matter of considerable importance, but I do not think anything is to be gained by exaggerating it. For instance, the hon. Gentleman has talked as if this were
  1008
  purely a sudden emergency, and the hop industry which had been prosperous hitherto had been damaged by a sudden inrush of foreign hops. That is not in accordance with the facts. If the hon. Member had taken the trouble to look at the facts he would have known that compared with thirty years ago we have imported less foreign hops. There has been a steady decline in each decade in the quantity of hops imported from abroad. There are two things which have really affected the hop trade. The first is machinery. We are producing the same quantity of hops out of a smaller acreage. That has nothing to do with the trade conditions, but has a good deal to do with improvement in the methods of production. In itself it is a good thing, but, unfortunately, you cannot have good things without occasionally bringing some sort of disadvantage on others who are not benefited by them. The result is a good saving of labour, and those who are engaged in the hop industry have suffered to that extent. This change is not attributable to the importation of foreign hops, which has declined; it is entirely attributable, first, to machinery and improved methods of production, and, secondly, to the use of hop substitutes. Instead of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to introduce some sort of legislation the nature of which the hon. Gentleman himself cannot quite indicate to me, why should he not go to his friends the brewers—they are great patriots; in fact we might suppose from the sort of language used recently they are the only patriots—and say, "Here are you, a great patriotic trade; why are you using all this foreign stuff, some of it, I understand, consisting of rather deleterious ingredients, instead of the good old British article, hops?" Hops produce better beer, clearer beer—I do not pretend to be an authority, but I am told that that is the case. Why not appeal to them? I think the hon. Gentleman will agree with me that it is a mistake to have legislation, unless it is absolutely necessary, to interfere with an industry. If you got a trade like that to use the real British article instead of resorting to this adulterated, deleterious, mischevious, pernicious foreign stuff, the situation would be saved. That is the suggestion I make to the hon. Gentleman; he has greater influence with that community than I have. If

  1009
  the great brewing syndicates were induced to use hops grown in Kent instead of hops grown in California, and other stuff grown in all parts of the world, I think the hop industry in Kent would have much more reason to thank the hon. Gentleman than it will for making vague and wild suggestions, which he himself has really not outlined, and which would not be effective if they were put into operation. I do not wish to dogmatise. A very able Committee, presided over by one of the ablest men in the House, is at present inquiring into this industry. It has been sitting seven days, and has taken evidence from the leading hop-growers. It is to have evidence, too, from the brewers, and it is pursuing its inquiry with every expedition. It is not for me to indicate the nature of that inquiry, but it is too early to have a discussion on the subject. The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong in suggesting that there is some abnormal dumping of foreign hops. When he talks about 8,000 tons he is absolutely wrong. He has mistaken tons for hundredweights.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I suppose the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to misrepresent me. I said 8,000 tons, and I mean 8,000 tons.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The hon. Gentleman is accustomed to tariff reform statistics.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The hon. Gentleman has only himself to blame for my not having the actual figures. If he had given me even three hours' notice I could have given him the figures. I am informed generally that 8,000 tons is an exaggeration. The total number of tons last year was 10,000, and that seems to represent on the whole the quantity which has been steadily coming in for years. During the twenty years of the Unionist Government this was going on, and every member for the county of Kent was a supporter of that Government. They never thought it necessary to interfere; and surely when we have been in power only two years we might at any rate be given some time to inquire into the
  1010
  matter. I am not sure that we are the only Government who have really inquired into the matter. I think it is a wise course not to legislate without inquiring first. It is much better than legislating first and making investigations afterwards. If the hon. Gentleman does not mind our looking into the matter and getting our facts and information first, I think that will be our wiser course.
  MR. FORSTERdid not think the right hon. Gentleman, who was no doubt in a state of suspended animation realised the urgency of the case and the real grounds of the apprehensions that existed in the hop-growing districts. The dumping of American hops was part of a settled policy declared by the hop growers on the western coast of America, to make it impossible for hops to be grown in Great Britain. It was part of a policy to make the British market a happy hunting ground for the American hop grower. That was the new fact in the situation which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have left out of account. He hoped he would include it in the scope of his inquiry. The result, he was confident, would be to force him to the conclusion that some steps must be taken unless hop growing was to come to an end as a British industry. The right hon. Gentleman asked why an attempt was not made to persuade brewers to give up using hop substitutes. Why did not the right hon. Gentleman tax the substitutes?
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: Our beer would cost us, more.
  MR. FORSTERsaid that that was a prospect which some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite would view with unconcern. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would realise the urgency of this matter.
  MR. PIKE PEASEsaid the Chancellor of the Exchequer I had tried to make a party point with reference to tariff reform statistics. It was quite possible that tariff reform statistics like everything else might sometimes be incorrect. The other night the right

  1011
  hon. Gentleman himself gave some remarkable figures with regard to the unemployed of Germany, his figures including some women and some partly employed people. When he (Mr. Pike Pease) put a Question in the House on the subject three or four days afterwards, the right hon. Gentleman accepted his correction. Under the circumstances he need not have referred to tariff reform figures. With regard to the question of hops the right hon. Gentleman had said that thirty years ago there was a great number of imports into this country. That was perfectly true, but when they were considering the question of exports and imports he should take into account the question of population and the total amount of exports and imports. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would really consider the question as one of infinite importance to a very large number of the population of the country and one in which the House took great interest.
  MR. GRETTONsaid the right hon. Gentleman had inadvertently made one or two statements which were not in accordance with facts, at any rate, as they had been put before the Hops Committee, of which he was a member. It had been given in evidence that in brewing only a small proportion of hop substitutes was used. The relative importance of this question of substitutes should be laid clearly before the House. The official returns showed that something like 571,000 cwts. of hops were used in brewing last year, and only 246 cwts. of hop substitutes. Personally he would be quite willing to see them entirely abolished. The importation complained of was an abnormal consignment of Californian hops two years old. It already amounted to about 5,000 tons, and a further consignment of about 3,000 tons was expected. It was in regard to that exceptional importation that the hon. Member for Gravesend had appealed
  1012
  to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to come to the help of the hop industry in Kent, which was undoubtedly in a very deplorable condition. The inquiry of the Committee was not complete. As far as he was concerned, he was strongly of opinion that when the season was good there were no better hops than English hops, but unfortunately the seasons were not always good. The House was not yet in a position to judge how far foreign hops were necessary. He strongly supported the appeal that had been made in regard to the special importation, which threatened grave injury to the hop industry during the coming season.
  *SIR W. J. COLLINS (St. Pancras, W.)said the Select Committee on the Hop Industry, of which he was chairman, was only appointed four weeks ago, and it had addressed itself to its rather wide reference with considerable expedition and industry, having sat sometimes twice a week, and for five or six hours at a stretch. Its terms of reference included the whole subject of the past and present condition of the hop industry. There had been no inquiry on the subject for seventeen years, and a great deal of valuable evidence had accumulated. The Committee would be able to report to the House precise figures as to the acreage formerly under hops and the extent to which that acreage had been reduced in Kent and Sussex. Figures would also be given in respect of Herefordshire and Worcestershire. The growers had presented their case in a fair and satisfactory manner, and after the recess evidence would be given on behalf of the brewers, the hon. Member for Rutland having suggested certain witnesses who would be able to give valuable evidence. The whole question of foreign imports was also engaging the attention of the Committee, and precise figures would be given of imports not only from the Atlantic Coast, but also from the Pacific Coast. There was no intention to delay the inquiry, and the Committee was anxious

  1013
  to make it as complete and satisfactory as possible in order that legislation, if necessary, might follow full investigation.
  MR. HAROLD COXsaid he had lived all his life in the centre of a hop-growing district, and to his knowledge there had always been an outcry in the hop country against foreign hops. He could go back for a period of thirty years and he remembered that Lord Salisbury told the hop growers of Kent that they could not expect a tax on their particular product unless they were willing to concede a tax upon other people's products; and he asked them whether there was any likelihood that the people of this country would consent to a tax on bread to please the growers of corn. Hitherto the Party opposite had declared that they would never tax raw material. Did the hon. Gentleman opposite adhere to that position?
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he did not ask for a general tax on hops. He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with an abnormal situation in accordance with his promise that if a case of excessive dumping was shown he could deal with it under our present fiscal system.
  MR. HAROLD COXsaid that for more than thirty years the Kentish farmers had been asking for a tax on hops in order to raise the price. Tariff reformers told them they did not desire that the price should be raised; they only wanted the foreigner to pay the tax. Yet recently a meeting of Kentish farmers passed a resolution declaring that a 40s. duty was required in order to raise the price of hops by 40s. It was complained that the Americans were sending their surplus production. Of course they were, and one of the secrets of business was to -sell what one did not one's self require.
  SIR GEORGE DOUGHTY: If you reduce the price of hops can you ensure a reduction in the price of beer?
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has exhausted his right of speaking.
  MR. HAROLD COX, continuing, said that what the hon Member proposed was to put a tax on raw material in order to raise the price. Now they had a clear definition of what was meant by tariff reform. It did not mean taxing manufactured articles, or taxing the foreigner, but it meant raising the price of raw materials, and raising the price to the home consumer.
  MR. FELLsuggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he had power to prevent the passing through the Custom House of this abnormal shipment of foreign hops, which were two years old and were to be sold at a knock-out price. In view of their age, it might be that they contained the germs of disease and were not fit to be sold on the market. Let the right hon. Gentleman place an embargo on them until it had been ascertained whether they contained any deleterious matter, or whether they were really fit for consumption. He thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in such an abnormal case, might take some steps to put an embargo on hops which were proved to be unfit for consumption. Until the Select Committee had made its report, and the matter had been thoroughly looked into, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would cause some steps to be taken to prevent hops being brought here until it was ascertained that they were thoroughly fit to be introduced into the country.
  MR. ANNAN BRYCEsaid he wished to ask the Leader of the House if in arranging the business ho would include an Education Bill for

  1015
  Scotland. He might remind the right hon. Gentleman that they had already had six Education Bills introduced by two Governments during the last seven years, and it would be a source of great disappointment in Scotland if an Education Bill for Scotland were not carried this session.
  MR. JOWETTsaid he would like to put before the Chancellor of the Exchequer the consideration of a matter in connection with hops, having relation to the changes which had taken place in regard to home brewing. Brewing, in consequence of the changes, had been driven into the hands of brewing syndicates. About 1880, when Parliament took the tax off barley and placed taxation on liquor, the result was practically to cut off the old custom of brewing at home which used to prevail in a large part of the country. He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would see that the Committee which had this subject under consideration inquired into the advisability of reverting to the old system of encouraging harmless brewing of beer at home, instead of patronising the substitutes and chemicals used by the brewers of the country. He also asked the right hon. Gentleman what he proposed to do with regard to a far more important subject—that of unemployment. It would be within the recollection of Members that a proposal made from those benches for the Second Reading of a Bill on the subject of unemployment was rejected by the House. That might be right or wrong. Personally, he thought the Bill was sound, for he could not get over the feeling that it was the duty of the State and of the community to see to the interests of the unemployed so long as they were willing to work. He therefore contended that it was the duty of the Administration to say what they intended to do in the matter. It was exceedingly difficult under the forms of the House to get a discussion on any subject. Private Members were almost wiped "off the mat"
  1016
  so to speak. There could be no more important subject than the unemployment problem, Doubtless the right hon. Gentleman would answer that there were various reforms which might have some influence with the question. Hon. Members above the gangway believed that certain charges in the matter of the importation of foreign hops might have some influence; some hon. Members on the other side of the House believed that the taxation of land values might have some effect on unemployment, and others believed that in the years to come, how many years they could not tell, the Small Holdings Act, passed last year, might have some influence also. But all these things were in the dim and distant future, while unemployment was present with us. Men were without work, and were wanting it, and since private Members had no responsibilities in the House under the present system of national administration, and since Ministers only were responsible for their own Departments, he asked them to exercise that responsibility, and say that day what they intended to do about unemployment. It was a most pressing question, and he thought he was within his rights in respectfully demanding a. reply from the right hon Gentleman as to what was intended to be done.
  MR. CLEMENT EDWARDSsaid he represented a constituency where a very large number of electors were engaged as workmen in breweries. On the occasion of the last election the Tariff Reform League carried on an agitation among them, and one of their representatives was asked whether the League were prepared to run the risk of injuring the brewing trade by putting a tax on the raw material—hops. The very emphatic reply was given by the representative of the Tariff Reform League that they were prepared to do nothing of the kind. He was sure that if that kind of representation had not been made his majority at the election would have been even greater

  1017
  than it was. They had that distinct reply from a representative of the League, which, it had been said, could not blow both hot and cold; but if their policy with, regard to raw material had changed, he would ask as a personal favour that the League should send a representative into his constituency to explain that fact. He protested most emphatically against the proposal to increase the number of unemployed by putting a tax upon the raw material called hops. Doubtless they would hear, in connection with another Bill which was to be discussed immediately after the holidays, a great deal about throwing persons out of employment in connection with the brewery trade; but he ventured to say that the number thrown out would be the merest fraction compared with the number that would be unemployed if the ideas of the hop farmers were realised, and a tax were put upon the raw material of the brewing trade.
  CAPTAIN CLIVEsaid that hon. Members had not attempted to define what they called raw material, and he thought the House would readily agree that there could be no bard and fast line drawn. He was prepared to say about hops, whether they were raw material or not, that very much more money went in labour with hops before they reached the brewer than after they became the raw material of manufacture. It had been pointed out by both the present and the late Prime Minister that under present legislation it was perfectly possible to deal with special cases of dumping as they arose. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his reply to his hon. friend had made no reference to that point whatever. His hon. friend had taken particular care not to dictate what should be the remedy adopted; he had simply pointed out that both the present and the late Leader of the House had declared their ability to deal with special cases as they arose; and he had asked the right hon. Gentleman to put the existing powers in
  1018
  force. He was not sure whether under the rules of the House the Chancellor of the Exchequer could speak again, but it would be interesting to know how the Government would be prepared to deal with such cases as the one in question. The frequent statements they had made of their ability to deal with them had constituted one of the commonest arguments, at any rate, against the urgency of the introduction of tariff reform.
  MR. VERNEYsaid he would remind hon. Gentlemen opposite that this was not the first ship that had approached the English shores with hops: many and many another ship had come. The hon. Member and his friends asked that the Government should exercise their powers—powers which had never been defined or explained by them. He had been listening in vain for some definition. What hon. Members really asked for was drastic legislation, not to meet this particular case, but to put a duty of 40s. on hops to last from now until Doomsday. He had asked every witness who had come before the Select Committee on the Hop Industry whether the 40s. duty which had been alluded to time after time by witness after witness was to meet this particular case; and all those who had had the greatest experience had answered "No." What they meant was a 40s. duty on hops, and that the duty was to last as long as the hop industry continued. That was the evidence put before the Committee. This question had arisen before and had been argued out time after time as being a permanent duty on hops. He hoped the House would not be under the impression that anything else had been asked for from the Committee, because that and that only was the demand made by witness after witness.
  CLYNESsaid he had put down a Question to the Home Secretary respecting the imprisonment of a number of leaders of the

  1019
  unemployed in Manchester. He asked if the right hon. Gentleman would ask for a report in regard to the circumstances of the imprisonment of these men, and whether he would take any action with a view to reducing what was deemed by the Labour Party to be a very extreme sentence. Perhaps the Under-Secretary could say whether any report had been received, and if so, whether any action in the direction the Labour Party wished was contemplated.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. HERBRET SAMUEL,): The hon. Member did not give me any notice of the Question and I am afraid therefore that I cannot give him any definite reply, but I will make immediate inquiry to see whether any action is possible.
  MR. CROOKSsaid the desire of the Labour Party was that the House should rise to a sense of its own responsibility. They were constantly told that inquiries would be made, and in that way the whole thing drifted on from year to year with occasionally a little sop to keep men quiet. Imprisonment could have no terrors to men or women who lived a life which, under present conditions, was almost a hell to them. Imprisonment would not terrorise people into obeying the law when the State permitted them to exist in a far worse state outside prison than inside. The Under-Secretary had promised them further inquiry and sympathy. There was nothing in the world so cheap as sympathy. They were constantly being told that the House of Commons could do nothing and that it was a deliberative Assembly. They had had a good example of that that day, because they had been deliberating for some considerable time on nothing in particular. They were not punishing these men but rather relieving them for a time by putting them in prison. It behoved those representing the Government to look round to see if the existing state of things could not be relieved. They had some hopes that the new Chancellor of the Exchequer with his deep sympathy and brilliant
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  intellect would be able to help them In this matter in the past it had been found necessary to cajole, flatter, or abuse the Government in order to encourage them to do something. If they called attention to the fact that a poor woman by the neglect of some official in an institution had been put into a bath and boiled, the hon. Member would simply get up and say, "I can assure the hon. Member that boiled lunatics are not in my Department." He appealed to hon. Members during the next ten days to consider what could be done for the surplus population. They must be absorbed in some kind of useful work and it was the duty of the Government to do something to find them employment. This sending of the unemployed to prison was a very serious thing, not only for those who were imprisoned but for those outside, because prison had no terrors for them. He hoped the Home Secretary would be able to send a message of peace to those poor men who had been imprisoned at Manchester after being found guilty of what? Simply of trying to get their daily bread honestly.
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAMasked when the Miners (Eight Hours) Bill would be proceeded with. He had been appealing to the House for the last twenty years upon this question. Only a few weeks ago a distinct promise was made that the Bill would be introduced before the Easter holidays. He knew that certain things had happened which were in no way under the control of the Government, and no body of men sympathised more with the ex-Premier than the miners. There was a rumour that the Miners (Eight Hours) Bill was going to be dropped. He knew that the Government had sufficient trouble without dropping the Miners Bill, and he hoped that course would not be dreamed of, because the consequences would be very serious indeed.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Four till Monday, 27th April.

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:—Army (Annual); Herne Bay Pier.
The Lord Hemphill—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill [H.L.] (No. 48).—A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the county borough of Belfast and the urban district of Letter-kenny; And
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 4) Bill [H.L.] (No. 49).—A Bill to confirm a certain Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the rural district of Rathdown (No. 1).
Were presented by the Lord Colebrooke (for the Lord Denman); read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
Derby Gas Bill; London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Bill [H.L.].—Reported, with Amendments.
Tramways Order Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [H.L.].—Reported, with Amendments, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House.
Standing Orders Committee.—Report from, that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Alliance and other Assurance and Insurance Companies Bill [H.L.] ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed.
And that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the petition for an additional provision in the Wath-upon-Dearne Urban District Council Gas Bill [H.L.] ought to be dispensed with, and
962
leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the additional provision.
Read, and agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  CANCER RESEARCH (COLONIES).
  Further correspondence relating to the Cancer Research Scheme (in continuation of [Cd. 2818], February, 1906.
  Correspondence relating to the Transvaal Indentured Labour Laws Temporary Continuance Act, 1907.

  TREATY SERIES.
  No. 8. (1908) Supplementary Agreement between the United Kingdom and Germany respecting commercial travelers' samples; signed at Berlin, 10th March, 1908.
  No. 9. (1908) Accession of Spain to the declaration respecting maritime law; signed at Paris, 16th April, 1856, 18th January, 1898.
  Turkey, No. 2. (1908) Further correspondence respecting proposals by His Majesty's Government for reforms in Macedonia (in continuation of "Turkey, No. 1. (1908)," [Cd. 3958].).

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3969. United States.
  No. 3970. Persia (Provinces of Seistan and Kain).

  MISCELLANEOUS.
  No. 667. Brazil (Mining Industry in the State of Minas Geraes).

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Statement showing the cases in which the Board of Education have received applications from local education authorities for special grants for the building of new public elementary schools, and the stage which each case had reached on 31st March, 1908.
  Regulations for secondary schools (in force from 1st August, 1908, in

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  England, excluding Wales and Monmouthshire).
  Regulations for the preliminary education of elementary school teachers: (1) Pupil teacher regulations; (2) Bursary regulations;(3) Student teacher regulations (in force from 1st August, 1908, in England, excluding Wales and Monmouthshire).

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  (Northern and Highland Divisions). General Report for the year 1907.
  Regulations for the preliminary education, training, and certification of teachers for various grades of schools, 1908.

  ARMY.
  Return showing the establishment of each unit of Militia in the United Kingdom, and the numbers present, absent, and wanting to complete at the training of 1907 (in continuation of [Cd. 3364.], of Session 1907).
  JUDICIAL STATISTICS (ENGLAND AND WALES), 1906 (PART II. CIVIL JUDICIAL STATISTICS).
  Statistics relating to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, the House of Lords, the Supreme Court of Judicature, County Courts, and other Civil Courts, edited by Sir John Macdonnell, C.B., L.L.D., a Master of the Supreme Court.
  ROYAL OBSERVATORY (EDINBURGH).
  Eighteenth Annual Report of the Astronomer-Royal for Scotland.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND).
  Return of the areas, population, and valuation of counties, burghs, and parishes in Scotland.
  AGRICULTURAL AND TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION FOR IRELAND (DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON IRISH FORESTRY).
  Report. Minutes of evidence, appendix, and index.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  Return of advances made under the Irish Land Act, 1903, during the month of April, 1907.
  COST OF LIVING IN GERMAN TOWNS.
  Report of an inquiry by the Board of Trade into working class rents, housing and retail prices, together with rates of wages in certain occupations in the principal industrial towns of the German Empire; with an introductory memorandum, and a comparison of conditions in Germany and the United Kingdom.

  Twelfth Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT. 1889.
  Annual Report on the state of the finances of the University of St. Andrew's under the provisions of Section 30 of the Act, for the year 1906–1907.
  Annual Statistical Report by the University Court of the University of St. Andrew's to the Secretary for Scotland, under the provisions of Section 30 of the Act, for the year 1906–1907.

  LIFE ASSURANCE COMPANIES.
  Statements of accounts, and of life assurance and annuity business, and abstracts of actuarial reports deposited with the Board of Trade, under Section 10 of "The Life Assurance Companies. Act," 1870, during the year ended 31st December, 1908.
  IRISH LAND PURCHASE FUND (ACCOUNTS, 1906–1907).
  Accounts of receipts and payments by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt in respect of the capital and income of the Irish Land Purchase Fund, in the year ended 31st March, 1907, together with the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon.

  INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN ENGLAND).
  Return of all loans raised in England under the provisions of any Acts of Parliament, chargeable on the revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ended 31st March, 1908, with the rates of interest and, total amount payable thereon, and the date of the termination of each loan, the

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  debt incurred during the half-year, the moneys raised thereby during the half-year, the loans paid off or discharged during the half-year, and the loans outstanding at the close of the half-year; stating, so far as the public convenience will allow, the purpose or service for which moneys have been raised during the half-year.

  NAVAL SAVINGS BANKS.
  Account of deposits in Naval Savings Banks and the payments thereof, and of interest thereon, of all investments under the Naval Savings Banks Act, 1866, and the application of the interest or dividends accruing in respect thereof, and of the proceeds of any sale of any stocks, annuities, or securities during the financial year 1906–1907.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING (MERCANTILE MARINE FUND) ACT, 1898.
  Draft Order in Council altering the exemptions in the Second Schedule to the Act, by adding thereto sailing yachts not registered in the British islands which came into territorial waters adjacent to the United Kingdom with the sole object of taking part in yacht racing.
  EGYPTIAN GUARANTEED LOAN OF 1885.
  Account up to 31st March, 1908.

  GREEK LOAN OF 1898.
  Account up to 31st March, 1908.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, that the following Lords be proposed to the House as the panel of Lords to act as Commissioners under the Act, viz.:—

  L. Saye and Sele;

  L. Bowes (E. Strathmore and Kinghorn);

  agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly.
  House adjourned at five minutes past Three o'clock, to Tuesday, the 5th of May next, at a quarter past Four o'clock.