Sitting of 9 May 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Great Northern and City Railway Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
King's Norton and Northfield Urban District Council Bill. Reported from the Police and Sanitary Committee, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.
London County Council (Money) Bill; Middlesbrough Corporation Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Leeds Corporation Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Birmingham Corporation Bill [Lords]; Manchester Ship Canal (Bridgewater Canal) Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Staveley Coal and Iron Company Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time.
Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time.
Collooney, Ballina, and Belmullet Railways and Piers Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP 5).
SIR LEWIS MCIVERreported from the Committee on Group 5 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at half-past Eleven of the Clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Dunfermline, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC (LOCAL OPTION) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour; from Anniesland; and, Cross; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petitions against; from Bristol; Harston; and, Leamington Spa; to lie upon the Table.
  PAUPER LUNATICS (COST OF MAINTENANCE).
  Petition from Prestwich, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  JAMAICA.
  Petition of Residents in the City of Kingston and the adjoining Parish of St. Andrew, Jamaica, for a grant in aid and for an Imperial loan to restore homes and buildings destroyed in the recent earthquake (King's recommendation signified); referred to the Committee of Supply.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EAST INDIA (EXCISE COMMITTEE).
  Return [presented 6th May], to be printed. [No. 142.]
  TEINDS, ETC. (SCOTLAND).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 18th December, 1906; Mr. McCallum]; to lie upon the Table.

  MINES AND QUARRIES.
  Copy presented, of General Report and Statistics for the year 1906, Part I. (District Statistics), Statistics of the

  335
  Persons employed, Output, and Accidents at Mines and Quarries in the United Kingdom, arranged according to the Inspection districts [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  SHOP HOURS ACT, 1904.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Council of the County of Lancaster, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, fixing the Hours of Closing for certain classes of Shops within the Clayton-le-Moors, Oswald-twistle, and Church Urban Districts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  CIVIL SERVICES (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1907–8).
  Estimate presented, of the Further Amount required in the year ending 31st March, 1908, for Sundry Colonial Services [by Command]; Referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 143.]
  EAST INDIA (ESTIMATE).
  Copy presented, of Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure of the Government of India for 1906–7, compared with the results of 1905–6 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 144.]
  EAST INDIA (FINANCE AND REVENUE ACCOUNTS).
  Copy presented, of Finance and Revenue Accounts of the Government of India for 1905–6 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (HOME ACCOUNTS).
  Copy presented, of Home Accounts of the Government of India [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 145.]
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 3799 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  PAPERS LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  1. Lunacy, Copy of Report to the Lord Chanceller of the number of visits made, the number of patients seen, and the number of miles travelled by the Visitors of Lunatics between 1st October, 1906, and 31st March, 1907 [by Act.]

  336

  2. Charity Commissioners (Agricultural Land), Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 26th March; Sir William Collins.]

  EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS AND IRREGATION WORKS).
  Address for "Return showing the estimated position, as regards capital expenditure, of the several Railways and Irrigation Works under construction in India on the 31st day of March 1907, and the proposed expenditure thereon during 1907–8 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 155, of Session 1906)."—(Mr. Robert Price.)
  EXPERIMENTS ON LIVING ANIMALS.
  Address for "Return showing the number of Experiments on Living Animals during the year 1906, under licences granted under the Act 39 and 40 Vic., c. 77, distinguishing the nature of the Experiments (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 204, of Session 1906)."—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)

  ULTIMUS HÆERES (SCOTLAND) (ACCOUNT AND LIST OF ESTATES).
  Return ordered, "of abstract Account of the receipts and payments of the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Scotland, in the year ended the 31st day of December, 1906, in the administration of Estates and Treasure Trove on behalf of the Crown."
  "And of Alphabetical List of Estates which fell to the Crown as Ultimus Hæres in Scotland administered by the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in the same year."—(Mr. Runciman.)

  GAS UNDERTAKINGS.
  Return ordered, "relating to all authorised Gas Undertakings in the United Kingdom, other than those of Local Authorities, for the year ended the 31st day of December 1906 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 393, of Session 1906)."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

  GAS UNDERTAKINGS (LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  Return ordered, "relating to all authorised Gas Undertakings in the United Kingdom, belonging to Local

  337
  Authorities for the year ended the 25th day of March, 1907 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 394, of Session 1906)."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

  AMERICAN MAIL SERVICE.
  Return ordered, "showing the number of days, hours, and minutes occupied in the transit of the Royal Mails, both outward and inward, carried during the years 1905 and 1906, respectively, by steamships between Queenstown and New York, between Southampton and New York, and between New York and Plymouth. The Return to specify the names of the steamers and to indicate by asterisk or otherwise those not carrying Mails under contract (in continuation of similar Return for 1904, dated 17th May, 1905)."—(Captain Donelan.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Irish Local Authorities and Local Traders' Tenders.
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Local Government Board auditors in Ireland will be called to the decision of the Lord Chief Justice of England, Mr. Justice Darling, and Mr. Justice Phillimore, in the London Courts on Tuesday, to the effect that local authorities are not bound to accept the lowest tender unless negligence or fraud can be shown; and whether, under these circumstances, local authorities in Ireland will be authorised to give the preference to local contractors where they are satisfied that the value is better even if the price be higher, or where they believe that the district will benefit by the expenditure being kept in the country.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Local Government Board for Ireland are required by statute to decide, on appeal, as to the lawfulness of the reasons stated by auditors for making surcharges. They are consequently not in a position to give their auditors any directions as to the grounds on which their decisions should be based. Arrangements, however, were made some years ago by the Board with the object of bringing under the notice
  338
  of auditors legal decisions, such as that referred to in the Question, as a guide to them in the performance of their statutory duties, and attention will be drawn to this case in the usual course. Under Section 18 of The Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1902, special statutory powers and duties are imposed on the auditors in cases of the acceptance of tenders for public works which are not the lowest tenders. The district councils or proposal committees who accept such tenders are not the ultimate paying authoritiy. The Board, therefore, are not in a position to authorise local authorities to act as suggested in the concluding part of the Question.

  Fleet Reserve Men and Foreign Navies.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the attention of the Board has been called to an advertisement of an agent at Portsmouth asking for volunteers for foreign warships from the Royal Navy belonging to numerous named ratings, such as torpedo and gunnery instructors, who have served their first period; whether inquiries have been made to protect men from imposition or the Royal Fleet Reserve from suffering losses; and whether the Admiralty can give any figures as to the number of men who have been trained in the Royal Navy and who subsequently joined foreign Navies since the Royal Fleet Reserve was established.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The attention of the Admiralty had not previously been called to this advertisement. The regulations prescribe that, before a Fleet Reserve man is entered, the Registrar is to satisfy himself that the man fully understands the conditions of service in the Reserve. These conditions do not admit of Fleet Reserve men residing abroad without permission and any men accepting service in a foreign Navy without permission would be liable to forfeiture of retainer and right to pension. The answer to the last part of the Question is in the negative.

  Advertising of Vacancies for Postmasterships.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether it is the rule that all vacancies

  339
  for postmasterships should be advertised in the Post Office Circular, to give every officer an equal chance of making application; and, if so, whether he can state why the recent vacancy at Dungannon was not advertised; and whether he can state the date of Civil Service certificate of officer selected, and the reason for his selection.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) It is the general rule to advertise vacancies for postmasterships in the Post Office Circular, but it is necessary on certain rare occasions to depart from the ordinary rule for special departmental reasons, and this happened in the case of the vacancy at Dungannon. The Civil Service certificate of the officer transferred to Dungannon is dated 27th August, 1887.

  Grant for Labourers' Scheme in the Dunshaughlin Union.
  MR SHEEHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the cause of the delay in issuing the Provisional Order for the money being granted for the labourers' scheme in the Dunshaughlin Union.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) Petitions against a portion of the Order in this case have been lodged with the Local Government Board and the County Court Judge. The Order has therefore been divided into two parts, relating to the opposed and unopposed portions of the scheme respectively. The loan relating to the unopposed Order can be issued as soon as the county council may apply for it, but no steps can taken in the other matter until the petitions have been adjudicated upon.

  Reinstatement of Evicted Tenants on the Estate of Captain Fitzgate, County Louth.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether two evicted farms on the estate of Captain Fitzgate, situate in the northern Parliamentary division of county Louth, were lately inspected by an inspector from the offices of the Estates Commissioners; whether the Commissioners offered to purchase the farms in question from the landlords for the purpose of reinstating two evicted tenants, originally in possession of these lands, named respectively Patrick Callan
  340
  and John Wiseman; whether the Commissioners' offer was accepted by the landlord; and, if so, will he explain the delay in putting the evicted tenants into possession.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell) The Esstates Commissioners inform me that they have had a preliminary inspection made of the farms in question, with the view of bringing about the restoration of the evicted tenants mentioned. The owner has expressed his willingness to sell at the Commissioners' estimated prices, and has accordingly instituted formal proceedings for sale to the Commissioners. The purchase will be carried through as soon as title has been proved and the other legal requirements have been complied with.

  Belfast Corporation and Cavehill Tramways.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenent of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the menace to public interests in Ireland by reason of the operation of trusts in connection with the supply of electric power and the obtaining of control of electric tramways; whether he is aware that the Belfast Corporation is about to conclude a bargain with one of the trusts to take over the Cavehill tramways at £60,000, and that it would take £40,000 to put the tramway system in order; and that the trust threaten to secure the right to run tramways into the centre of Belfast, unless the city council come to terms with them; and whether, seeing that the tramways are run at a loss at present; that under the terms of the proposed bargain the tramway company or the trust would retain possession of a recreation ground at the tram terminus, known as Bellevue; that the Corporation of Belfast would thus be incurring a liability of £100,000 to carry passengers to and from Bellevue and that the object of the retention of Bellevue is to compel the corporation to purchase it also, he will take steps to prevent sanction being given to the terms of purchase, or to postpone the purchase until a plebiscite of the ratepayers of Belfast has been taken on the question.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I understand that a Bill was introduced earlier this session with the object of giving to

  341
  the Cavehill and "Whitewell Tramway Company running powers over parts of the Belfast Corporation Tramways. I have ascertained from the town clerk of Belfast that since the introduction of the Bill negotiations have taken place, with the result that the corporation have agreed to purchase the company's line for the sum of £60,000. It is stated that the present Bill is to be withdrawn, and a Bill is to be promoted next session to confirm the agreement. The hon. Member will, therefore, gather that Parliament will have full opportunity to consider the matter.

  Hearing of Land Cases in the Dingle District.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at the recent sitting of the Land Commission in Tralee, a number of tenants from the Dingle district were asked to come over thirty miles to Tralee, at inconvenience and expense, and at the end of the sitting of two days had to go home without having their cases heard; whether he is aware that 300 tenants in the Dingle district have served notices to have fair rents fixed; and whether, seeing that this is a congested and highly rented district, and that very few tenants have had fair rents fixed, he will ask the Land Commission to fix a special sitting in Dingle at the earliest possible opportunity.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Land Commission inform me that the facts are substantially as stated in the Question. The sitting would in the ordinary course have taken place at Dingle, but owing to exceptional circumstances it was found necessary to hold it at Tralee. The next sitting for the district will be held at Dingle as usual. The date cannot at present be fixed, but it will be as soon as possible having regard to the claims of other districts.

  Promotion in the Customs Service.
  MR. HAYDEN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what circumstances necessitated the issuing of Circular Letter 37/1886 compelling outdoor officers of Customs to serve for two years, exclusive of probation, before being allowed to attend any other Civil Service examination; why the terms of this
  342
  circular letter were made retrospective, so as to include officers who joined during 1885 and the early portion of 1886; whether a grade, inferior in pay and prospects to that of examining officer, was created in 1886, which had the effect of practically stopping promotion to the rank of second-class examining officers until 1891; whether the regulations, showing the terms of service and prospects, issued by the Civil Service Commissioners to candidates who presented themselves for examination for the position of outdoor officer of Customs in May, 1885, and January, 1886, contained any reference to the effect the recent warehousing changes might have on the prospects of any future entrants into the service, or differed in any material respect from those issued to candidates for a similar position in 1882 and 1883, by which these officers might have been more able to forecast their prospects than those who joined in 1882 and 1883; and will he explain why the fact of their having entered in 1885 and 1886, considering they had to serve twelve to thirteen years before receiving £90 per annum, and that in the first year of their service the conditions under which they entered were twice altered to their detriment, be made a pretext for reducing the compensation for retardation of promotion; and whether, in the circumstances, he would reconsider the case of these officers and grant them the same allowance as that already granted to officers who joined under the same conditions during 1882 and 1883.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I will take the points raised by the hon. Member in the order in which they occur in his Question. (1) The reason for issuing the circular letter referred to was, as stated therein, the inconvenience caused to the Department by officers entering it merely with a view of quitting it as soon as possible. (2) This reason made it advisable to apply the restriction which was made by the circular to all officers then in the service. (3) The grade in question, viz., that of assistant examining officer, was created in 1886, but the effect was fully considered in the inquiry which led to the Treasury Minute of 24th March, 1891. (4) The Regulations issued by the Civil Service Commissioners to candidates for the position of outdoor officer in 1885 and 1886 were in the

  343
  same form as in previous years, and did not contain any information as to the effect of changes in the Department on the prospects of promotion open to such candidates. On such points candidates seeking appointments in the public service must satisfy themselves, if at all, by private inquiries as to the Department offering the best prospects. (5) The compensation allowances referred to were granted in consideration, not of the two alterations mentioned in the Question, but of the retardation in promotion caused by the introduction of the new warehousing system in 1882 and 1883. (6) The changes resulting from the new system had been completed by 1885; so that officers then entering the Department were in a better position to forecast their prospects than those who entered in 1882 and 1883, and have less claim to compensation.

  Annual Leave of Assistant Clerks in the Customs (Statistical Branch).
  MR. S. COLLINS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what is the annual leave of the new class of assistant clerks in the Statistical Office of the Customs; and whether, in view of the fact that these men remain on overtime for almost six months in the year, any extra leave is given.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The annual leave of the new class of assistant clerks in the Statistical Office of the Customs is that allowed to the class generally, viz., fourteen working days, exclusive of bank holidays, up to ten years' service, and after ten years' service eighteen working days, exclusive of bank holidays. No extra leave is given on account of extra attendance; but all such attendance is paid for at the authorised overtime rates.

  Loss of H.M.S "Ariel"—Date of Court-martial.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty when the court-martial in connection with the loss of H.M.S. "Ariel" on Malta breakwater will take place.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) This Question is under consideration.

  Age of German Naval Recruits.
  MR BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the ap-
  344
  proximate age of recruits in the German Navy, such as form one-third of the complements of the eight principal battleships of the German North Sea Fleet; and what preliminary training, in point of time, these men have undergone.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) I understand that the approximate age is twenty to twenty-three. These men receive no preliminary training, and are recruited from the seafaring population, or, in the case of stokers and mechanics, from like trades ashore.

  Medical Inspection of Schools.
  VISCOUNT VALENTIA: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he proposes to take any, and, if so what, steps, to establish a permanent medical department at the Hoard of Education, with a view to secure efficient medical inspection of schools.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I must refer the noble Lord to the Answer which I gave in the House to-day upon this subject.†

  Repayment of Exchequer Bonds.
  MR. ASHTON (Bedfordshire, Luton): To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the sum of £9,961,500 of Exchequer Bonds running on the 6th May, 1907, includes the Exchequer Bonds repayable over the course of ten years at the rate of one million sterling a year; and what are the amounts of the various issues of the Exchequer Bonds still running.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) The total of £9,961,500 is made up of—

  £

  Exchequer Bonds under the Finance Act, 1905, redeemable by annual drawings up to 1915

  8,000,000

  Exchequer Bonds under the Supplemental War Loan Act, 1900, redeemable on the 6th August, 1907

  1,961,500

  £9,961,500

  The following Exchequer Bonds are also current, which, having been issued for capital expenditure, are classed among
  †See Cols. 363–4.

  345
  "Other Capital Liabilities," and do not form part of the unfunded debt—

  £

  Exchequer Bonds under the Capital Expenditure (Money) Act, 1904

  6,000,000

  Exchequer Bonds under the Cunard Agreement (Money) Act, 1904

  2,20,000

  £8,200,000

  Indian Railways—Shortage of Rolling Stock.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the deficiency of rolling stock in India, he will consider the proposal formerly made by the Cawnpore Chamber of Commerce that factories should provide their own goods waggons, and arrange with the railway companies concerned for their use upon hire.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) So far as I am aware there is nothing to prevent factories or private firms making arrangements with railway companies in India for supplying their own goods waggons, if suitable terms can be agreed to.

  Mansions in the Hands of the Irish Estates Commissioners.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will give the number of mansion houses and their valuation, and the number, acreage, and valuation of the demesnes, that have come into the hands of the Estates Commissioners since the passing of the Land Purchase Act of 1903; if he will state what has been done with these houses and lands; and how many acres of timber have come into the hands of the Estates Commissioners since 1903, how this timber has been disposed of, and what, price it has realised.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that three mansion houses with demesnes attached, included in estates sold to them but not repurchased by the owners, have come into their hands since the passing of the Act of 1903, the combined valuation of the houses being £120 5s., and the total acreage of the demesnes attached about
  346
  746. In each ease the greater part of the demesne has been either distributed amongst tenants on neighbouring estates for the enlargement of their holdings, or used for the reinstatement of evicted tenants. The mansion houses, with the remainder of the lands, including timber, have been let on leases which prohibit the lessees from cutting such timber without the Commissioners' consent. The Commissioners are not at present in a position to give a return of acreage under timber on estates purchased by them, but arrangements have been made for the sale, for £3,986, of timber on lands which have been purchased by them and are being divided among tenant purchasers, the clearing of the lands from timber being necessary in these cases for the purposes of resale.

  Inspection of the Darnley Estate, County Meath.
  MR. SHEEHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an inspection has been made of the Darnley estate, county Meath; and, if so, what has been the decision in the case of James Smith, a sub-tenant on the property, and how will his position be affected by a decree for possession obtained against him at the recent Trim sessions.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The inspection of the estate referred to has not yet been made, but the Estates Commissioners anticipate that it will take place in the course of a few months. In the meantime the Commissioners are unable to state how the sub-tenant's case may be affected by the decree stated to have been obtained against him.

  Sale of Mr. J. Philpott's Estate, County Meath.
  MR. FLYNN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have taken any action recently towards facilitating the completion of the sale of the estate of Mr. Joseph Philpott, Knocknacolon, Duhallow, county Cork, No. 2986 E. C., in which case five tenants signed purchase agreements in August, 1905; if the Commissioners are aware that this gentleman sold to these tenants with a view to purchase his own holding; that he is still held liable to pay a rack rent of £219 17s. to the head

  347
  landlord and all tithe rent charges, and is in receipt of only £26 18s. 6d. purchase annuities from the tenants; whether the Commissioners will take into consideration the exceptional position of Mr. Philpott, with a view to have the case taken out of order and dealt with speedily in order to relieve him from payment of this head rent.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they will consider the facts of this case, with the view of deciding whether the circumstances are such as to warrant its being taken up out of its proper turn.

  Purchase of the Estate of Archdeacon Scott, County Meath.
  MR. PATRICK WHITE: To ask the Chief Secretary of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on the estate of the Venerable Archdeacon Scott, situate at Cookstown, Piercetown, Valrenstown, in the county Meath, have lodged purchase agreements for their holdings as far back as the year 1904; and whether he will explain why the Commissioners have refused to advance the whole of the purchase money, and by what principles they were guided in fixing the amount to be advanced.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) Purchase agreements in respect of the estate mentioned were lodged with the Estates Commissioners on the 3rd January, 1905. The Commissioners have refused to sanction the advances applied for in six of the cases. In one case the advance was refused on the ground of insufficient security. In the other five cases the advances applied for exceeded in each case the sum of £3,000 which is the limit imposed by Section of 2 the Act of 1888, and the Commissioners, in the exercise of their discretion, decided not to sanction advances in excess of this amount.

  Irish Evicted Tenants—Case of Jonathan Dann.
  MR. PATRICK WHITE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Jonathan Dann, at present residing in Roscrea, and formerly evicted from the lands of Whitepark, near Roscrea, by Samuel Maxwell, Glenalbert, Roscrea,
  348
  county Tipperary, has applied for reinstatement in his former holding; and will he state what action has been taken in this case.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have referred this man's application to an inspector for investigation. As soon as the inspector's Report has been received the case will be duly considered.

  Salary of Mr. J. T. Drennan.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners had proposed to pay a salary of £400 to Mr. J. T. Drennan; and was that sum increased to £500 at the suggestion of Sir Robert Holmes, Treasury Remembrancer.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The reply to both parts of the Question is in the negative.

  Royal Irish Constabulary Force Fund.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware of the existence of an agitation for a number of years back among the Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners of the United Kingdom, requesting the immediate winding up of the Constabulary Force Fund; is he aware that his predecessor stated that the Constabulary Force Fund would be wound up as soon as possible; and, seeing that twelve months has passed since then, how soon will the Government be able to carry out this, undertaking.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am not aware that my predecessor made any statement as to the winding up of this fund, save that it was being gradually wound up by meeting its obligations to widows and orphans of subscribers as they arise. This process of winding up was provided by the Act of 1883, which closed the fund to new entrants, and no more summary method of winding it up is possible.

  Army Pensions—Case of Hugh Craig.
  MR. W. BENN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of

  349
  Hugh Craig, who, after serving in the Army Hospital Corps in 1882, and subsequently in 1900 in the Imperial Yeomanry at Pretoria, where he was injured, was discharged from Netley in receipt of 3s. 6d. a day, in addition to an original pension of 1s.; whether the 3s. 6d. has now been stopped; if so, for what reason; and whether he can see his way to have it continued.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This man, on admission to the Herbert Hospital to consider his claim to a renewal of his temporary pension, refused to submit himself to sufficient medical examination. It is not, therefore, possible to consider his claim to further pension. He has been repeatedly informed to this effect.

  Army Pensions—Case of S. Lisle.
  MR. W. BENN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of S. Lisle, who served in the Royal Marines from 1st July 1880 to 1st July 1892, and subsequently, in 1893, joined the 4th Essex, in which he served a term of six years, 321 days, and from which he was invalided; and whether Lisle is entitled to any pension or gratuity, in view of the fact that he is at present suffering from paralysis and has lost the sight of the right eye.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This man's service in the Essex Regiment cannot be traced. If my hon. friend will kindly forward further particulars, giving dates of enlistment and discharge, the case shall be investigated.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Sale of Obsolete War Ships.
  MR. WATT: On behalf of the hon. Member for Lynn Regis, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that we place no restriction on the sale of new warships to foreign Powers, the Board will consider the advisability, in the case of the sale of obsolete ships, of allowing them to be bought without any provision as to their being broken up in this country; and whether this practice
  350
  cannot be tried as an experiment, on a small scale, in order to ascertain how far it is desirable to extend it.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): Obsolete ships are not in all cases sold on condition that they are to be broken up in this country. The circumstances of each case are separately considered.
  MR. WATT: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any approximate estimate of the prices which would be obtained if the ships sold recently had had not been sold subject to the stipulation that they should be broken up?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I have not.
  MR. R. DUNCAN: Have any applications been received from the Colonies for any of these ships to be used for training or other purposes?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I do not think so.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, before selling any more of our old soft-ended battleships, or ships which have no armour at the bow and stern, the Board will take into consideration the small price realised, and the advisability of utilising one of them as a target in order to test what would happen to the many soft-ended battleships in the British Navy if their ends are fired at with high explosive shells from the large number of 6-inch and 6·5-inch guns carried in foreign warships.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: It is not proposed to utilise one of the ships of this type as a target for the purpose suggested. The professional advisers of the Admiralty do not consider that any additional information, at all commensurate with the expense involved, could be obtained in this way.

  Dangerous Derelicts at Sea.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that many

  351
  British vessels are lost at sea, presumably through collision with derelicts, the Admiralty will consider the desirability of commissioning one of the vessels of the Reserve Fleet to search the seas for these dangers to navigation and destroy them.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: This question was considered in 1894 by a Joint Committee of the Admiralty and Board of Trade, which reported against the hon. Member's suggestion. This report was presented to the House. (Cd. 7568 of Session 1894.)

  Rosyth.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has formed any estimate of the increase in the value of the land surrounding Rosyth which will result from the establishment there of a Government dockyard; and whether he has considered the advisability of making some arrangement to secure the improved value for the State before proceeding with any important work at Rosyth.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: No estimate has been formed, and it would be difficult to form an accurate one. As to the second point, I understand that the Crown acquired an area, much larger than would otherwise have been necessary, with this object in view.

  Naval Contracts for Beer.
  SIR F. BANBURY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty to what firm the contract for beer to be supplied to the fleet in Home waters has been given for the year 1907–8
  MR EDMUND ROBERTSON: No beer is bought by the Admiralty for issue to the Fleet but a certain quantity is contracted for on behalf of the War Office and India Office for issue on the transports. This contract is at present held by Meux & Company, the lowest tenderers.
  SIR F. BANBURY: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House if the First Lord of the Admiralty has any interest in that firm?
  MR EDMUND ROBERTSON: I cannot give any such information.

  County Associations—Audit of Accounts.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the accounts of the county associations will be audited by the War Office auditors or by outside chartered accountants.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,): I am about to lay before the House a statement showing the manner in which the territorial associations will be financed. The main portion of the grant will be based upon certificates of results; not upon expenditure in detail. The position of the War Office in regard to this audit will therefore be that which has obtained in regard to the Volunteers. The grants will, however, be applicable only to authorised objects, sub-serving the efficiency of the Forces; and it will probably be proposed that their appropriations to such purposes and their record in proper and duly vouched accounts should be secured by audit by qualified chartered accountants.

  Compulsory Drill in Schools.
  MR. BRIGHT: On behalf of the hon. Member for North Salford, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that compulsion to join in miniature rifle shooting and military drill already exists in several schools connected with the Head Masters' Association and a number of preparatory schools; whether he contemplates an extension of this compulsory military training in schools; and whether State-aid for such training, which was recently disavowed by the Government in connection with elementary schools, is proposed in the case of secondary schools.
  MR. HALDANE: The Government has no intention of making any grant for the purpose of introducing compulsion of any kind, and I may say generally that the question of compulsory military drill and miniature rifle shooting in schools does not, and cannot, come within the sphere of influence of the Army Council.

  Freights to the West Coast of Africa.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the

  353
  Colonies what weight of steel rails and sleepers was shipped to Lagos, Southern Nigeria, and the Gold Coast in the year 1906–7; and what was the average freight charged from the port of production to free on quay at the West Coast.
  The following Question also stood on the Paper:—
  MR. WEDGWOOD: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies who placed the contract for the rails and sleepers for the West Coast Colonies and the contract for the freightage thither, and with whom were the orders and freightage placed; and were tenders called for by open advertisement, or what firms were asked to tender for supply and for freightage.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): It will be convenient to deal with this and the next Question of the hon. Member together. The contracts for rails and sleepers and for their freight were placed by the Crown Agents as agents for the Colonies concerned. The contracts for freight were placed with Elder Dempster and Company. As regards the system followed by the Crown Agents in contracting for stores for Colonial Governments, I must refer the hon. Member to the Parliamentary Paper published in 1904 (Cd. 1944) in which full explanations are given. The further information asked for could be furnished, but its compilation would involve considerable labour, necessitating examination of records for the past ten years. The Secretary of State is not prepared to direct that this should be done, but if the hon. Member will apply to the Crown Agents direct they will be happy to give him any particulars which he may require. It should be borne in mind that the railways in question were constructed at the expense of the respective Colonies, and that the British taxpayer bore no part of their expense.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Are the Government satisfied that the retention of Crown Agents makes for the efficiency of the Consular Service?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I have no hesitation in saying that the Government are
  354
  of opinion that the retention of Crown Agents is entirely in the interests of efficiency and economy.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I want to get at the freights actually charged.
  MR. CHURCHILL: If the hon. Gentleman will go to the Crown Agents' Office he will be able to get all the particulars.

  Nigerian Bailways—Freights for Material.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the orders for freight of material required for the future railways in Northern and Southern Nigeria will be placed through the Crown Agents, or will Sir Percy Girouard, with his experience of railway construction, be given a free hand to deal himself directly with the cheapest market.
  MR.CHURCHILL: As no railway construction has yet been authorised in Northern Nigeria, it is premature to say how the orders for freight will be placed, but such orders would presumably be placed by the Crown Agents, as agents for the Government of Northern Nigeria, on the most advantageous terms obtainable. The same course will be followed in the case of railway extension in Southern Nigeria.
  In reply to a further Question by Mr. WEDGWOOD,
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid that in the event of any railway construction being authorised in Northern Nigeria the Government hoped to be able to avail themselves of Sir Percy Girouard's experience in order to secure that the line was built at as low a cost as possible, but he could not say if the Crown Agents would be employed on a railway line the building of which had not yet been decided upon.

  West African Deep-Water Landing Places.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether all the deep-water landing places in the British West African Colonies are owned by companies controlled by Sir Alfred Jones, so that other shippers cannot compete in carrying freight there;

  355
  if this is not so, will he give a list of those ports which are not controlled by Sir Alfred Jones; and, if the monopoly is at all serious, will the Government themselves construct publicly-owned deep-water landing stages to permit of free competition, before any public money is spent on importing extensive railway material at artificially high rates.
  MR. CHURCHILL: There is no British Colony in West Africa where the deep-water landing places are owned by companies controlled by Sir Alfred Jones, so that the monopoly referred to does not exist.

  New Transvaal Loan.
  SIR JOSEPH LEESE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government have been approached with the object of granting a further loan to the Transvaal Government.
  MR. CHURCHILL: General Both a has informed the Secretary of State that it is the intention of his Government to propose to the Transvaal Legislature a Bill authorising a loan of £5,000,000 upon the credit of the Transvaal, for the purposes inter alia of irrigation works, for completing railway development, for the establishment of a land bank, and generally in pursuance of the policy of £35,000,000 guaranteed loan. He has asked His Majesty's Government whether they would be willing to assist the Transvaal Government by an Imperial guarantee. Having regard to the special circumstances which distinguish the Transvaal at the present time from every other responsible self-governing Colony, His Majesty's Government have intimated their willingness in principle to afford such a guarantee if and when the necessary legislation shall have been passed by the Transvaal Legislature.
  MR. DALZIEL: Has no mention been made in these discussions of the £30,000,000?
  MR. CHURCHILLreplied in the negative, and was understood to add that the Government had already announced that they had relinquished that claim.

  Disturbances in Morocco.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information as to the rebellion in the South of Morocco; and whether any steps are being taken to safeguard British subjects within the districts affected.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,): His Majesty's Minister at Tangier considers the published reports as exaggerated. News has reached him that one of the disaffected tribes is threatening to interfere with the Sultan's administration in Morocco City. It has not yet been possible to obtain confirmation of these reports, which do not, however, point to any unusual danger affecting British subjects.
  MR. ASHLEY: Does the Sultan's writ run in the South of Morocco?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: There is always a certain amount of disturbance in the South of Morocco.

  The Oddfellows and Land Tax.
  MR. THORNTON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that branches of the Manchester Unity of Oddfellows which hold land under the authority given by the Friendly Societies Act have until recently been exempt from payment of the land tax, and that during the past six months demands for payment of the tax have been made in different parts of the country; if so, will he say what is the reason for the change in practice, and will the land tax, which has been collected from branches of the Manchester Unity, or from any other registered friendly society, be refunded on application, as is the case with tax on income from any other source.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,): There is no exemption from land tax in favour of friendly societies as such; but under Section 12 of the Finance Act, 1896, persons exempt from income-tax by reason of their incomes not exceeding £160 are relieved from payment of land

  357
  tax. The Commissioners of Inland Revenue are advised that the recent decision of the House of Lords in the case of Curtis v. The Old Monkland Conservative Association has the effect of depriving all bodies, corporate or unincorporate, of the income-tax exemption on the ground of smallness of total income, and consequently of the land tax exemption also, and the change of practice is consequent upon that decision.

  Paddington Borough Councils and Home Workers.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has now received from the Paddington Borough Council any explanation of their refusal to take proceedings against local traders who had failed to supply the names and addresses of home-workers employed by them.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I have now received a letter from the Council stating that they have reconsidered the matter, and have adopted the following resolution:— "That the solicitor be instructed to take steps to secure the outstanding lists of home-workers employed in this borough, and if necessary, to take proceedings against one firm or employer as a test case." I have asked the Council to let me know the result of the steps which they have decided to take.

  Privileged Cabs.
  MR. WILES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is still negotiating with the various railway companies having termini in London with reference to the abolition of the privileged cab system; and, if so, whether he can state if he has been successful in coming to a satisfactory arrangement.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is yet in a position to make a definite statement as to the abolition of the privileged cab system.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The negotiations with the railway companies in which, as I have already stated in Answer to
  358
  previous Questions, I have been engaged, have been somewhat prolonged, partly owing to the number of companies concerned. I trust that a satisfactory arrangement may be arrived at. If not I propose to introduce legislation on the subject at an early date.

  The Zoological Gardens.
  MR. G. GREENWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is a ware that it is still the practice at the Zoological Gardens in Regent's Park to feed the pythons and other large snakes on living animals, including goats and kids, in spite of the testimony of the directors of the New York Zoological Park and other menageries that the reptiles can be fed successfully on newly-killed animals; and whether, in view of the difficulty of obtaining evidence by reason of the fact that the public are not admitted when the snakes are fed, he will institute a police inquiry in order to see that the law for the prevention of cruelty to animals is not infringed.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have made inquiry of the Secretary to the Zoological Society who informs me as follows:— "The authorities of the Society are personally acquainted with the practices of other gardens, including those of New York, and living prey is never given to serpents that will take dead prey." The Secretary has offered to give exact information to the Secretary of the Humanitarian League, and I have no doubt he would do the same for any responsible body. In the circumstances I see no ground for taking any action.

  Missing Vessels and Derelicts.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the number of British vessels posted as missing during the last ten years whose loss is attributed to collision with derelicts.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,): As the causes of vessels being missing are entirely matters of conjecture, I cannot undertake to say how many of such losses have been attributed to collisions with derelicts during the last ten years, and I am not aware that any reliable evidence has been forthcoming at

  359
  an inquiry or elsewhere that a vessel has probably been lost from such cause.

  Trade with South Africa.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that whereas in 1898 the total value of exports into South Africa from all sources amounted to £23,905,516, of which the British share was 69·4 per cent., in 1906 the total imports were £29,859,672, of which the British share was 56·8, while the share of competing foreign countries had increased from 19·5 per cent. to 21·8 per cent.; whether he can explain this comparative falling off of British trade; and whether the Government have formulated any proposals as an alternative to a preferential tariff, with the object of improving trade relations between the United Kingdom and South Africa.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The figures quoted as to the total value of imports into South Africa appear to be in substantial agreement with the Colonial trade returns. It should, however, be mentioned that the 1906 figures, which are compiled by the South African Statistical Bureau, are exclusive of Colonial Government stores. The proportion of imports from the United Kingdom in 1906 were somewhat less than in 1898, but not quite to the extent stated, owing to the exclusion of Government stores, which are largely imported from the United Kingdom. The causes which have affected this trade cannot be satisfactorily dealt with in answer to a Question, but I may say that the decreased proportion of trade with the United Kingdom is partly accounted for by the increased importation of foodstuffs from British possessions. Any practical proposal to improve trade relations between the United Kingdom and South Africa would receive the careful and sympathetic consideration of the Government.

  Railway Companies and Luggage Insurance.
  MR. LLOYD MORGAN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether railway companies claiming limited liability for uninsured luggage, under the Carriers Act of 1830, to the extent of £10 provide
  360
  means for its insurance when accompanying its owners.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Yes, Sir, so far as I am aware, such provision is made.
  MR. LLOYD MORGAN: Is or ought not the information to be published in the time table?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I will make inquiry.

  Swindon Guardians' Disqualification.
  MR. THORNE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the Swindon Board of Guardians declaring a scat vacant of one of its members on the grounds of his accepting Poor Law relief, in consequence of his sleeping in one of the casual wards for one night with a view of finding out what kind of treatment the casual ward people were receiving; and whether he proposes to take action in the matter.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): My attention has been drawn to this case. A member of a Board of Guardians is disqualified under Section 46 of the Local Government Act, 1894, if within twelve months before his election, or at any time after it, he has received union or parochial relief. The section further provides that where a member becomes disqualified for holding office the Board of Guardians shall declare the office to be vacant. If the action of the Guardian in question has brought him within the section, I am not empowered to remove the disqualification.

  Commons and Eights of Way.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he can state in how many cases local authorities have interfered under the Act of 1894 to prevent enclosure of commons or to protect paths or rights of way; in how many they have been successful, and in how many they have failed.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am not able to give my hon. friend the particulars he

  361
  desires. The Act does not require the local authorities to notify to the Local Government Board any action taken by them in relation to this matter.

  West London Central Church, Westbourne Grove.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been directed to the fact that the Assessment Committee of the Paddington Borough Council have now assessed to local rates the West London Central Church, Westbourne Grove, on the ground that they have, by using the church for social work, infringed the Act, 3 and 4 Will. IV., chapter 30, section 1, which provides that churches and chapels shall not be rated as long as they are exclusively appropriated to public religious worship; and whether, if the council's action be uphold, he will introduce legislation to prevent the law being used to stop work which is so much needed in Paddington and similar places.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: My attention has been drawn to this case. I have noted the suggestion made by my hon. friend, but I cannot promise to introduce legislation on this subject.

  Malton Rural District Water Supply.
  MR. LEIF JONES: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received complaints from the Malton Rural District Council and other local authorities to the effect that they are unable to secure proper water supplies for their districts, owing to the difficulty of coming to terms with riparian owners; and whether he will introduce a measure to enable the Board to issue Provisional Orders for the compulsory acquisition of water rights in such cases.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have received representations on this subject. I will give consideration to the suggestion in the latter part of the Question, but I cannot promise to introduce a Bill dealing with the matter during the present session.
  MR. LEIF JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind how exceedingly pressing this matter is?
  Mr. JOHN BURNS: Yes, this and other cases will, in my judgment, necessitate legislation at an early date.

  Motor 'Bus Smoke.
  MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to a judgment of the Lord Chief Justice, on 26th April, in the appeal case of the Star Omnibus Company, Limited, v.the Mayor and Borough of Camberwell, in which the learned Judge reversed the decision of a Metropolitan magistrate who had fined the plaintiff company for emitting smoke from a motor 'bus caused through negligence of over-lubrication on the grounds that, as the said 'bus exceeded three tons in weight, Section 30 of the Locomotive Act of 1878 did not apply, and that the Heavy Motor Car Order, 1904, placed motor 'buses outside Section 1 of the Act of 1896; and if he will, in view of this decision, cancel the Order of 1904 in order to prevent this nuisance.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have seen a newspaper report of the case referred to, but I do not gather from it that the Lord Chief Justice stated that the Heavy Motor Order placed motor omnibuses outside Section 1 of the Act of 1896. Its effect was, in fact, to bring them within that section. The difficulty in the matter arises out of the wording of the section, and this could only be altered by legislation.
  MR. MARKHAM: Is it not the fact that as a result of the decision motor 'buses are now able to emit smoke and do not come under any penalty for doing so?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: My hon. friend will forgive me if I do not return the Answer he would like, but when the Lord Chief Justice and the magistrate disagree on a technical point like this a humble layman like myself cannot instruct them.

  The Post Office and Lottery Circulars.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Members of this House recently received by post, in envelopes officially franked by the British postal authorities, a circular relating to the Great Royal Saxon State Money

  363
  Lottery, holding out the chance of a money prize which, it was represented, would, if paid in shillings and put one on the top of the other, be about ten times as high as Westminster Palace; and whether he will take steps to ascertain by whom the circulars were lodged for franking and to bring to justice the persons responsible for this violation of the Lottery Act.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): If the hon. Member will furnish me with a copy of the circular and envelope to which he refers, I will make inquiry, and, if necessary, communicate with the police authorities, with whom any question of prosecution rests. I may point out that the "official frank" to which the hon. Member refers merely shows that the postage has been paid, and confers no official character whatever on letters on which it is placed. I have, of course, no power to open closed envelopes for the purpose of ascertaining the nature of their contents.
  MR. MARKHAM: Will the right hon. Gentleman also make inquiries as to other financiers who hold out chances of money prizes which invariably never come off?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Any circular emanating from any quarter if it contravenes the law should be brought to my notice, and I will thereupon communicate with the proper authorities.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman extend his inquiry to the circulars of mining engineers?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Board of Education and Medical Inspection of Schools.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he proposes to create a medical department in connection with the Board of Education, so as to supervise and co-ordinate local work done in connection with the medical inspection of school children; and whether, in order to create such a department, legislation is necessary.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg also to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the fact that it is not competent for a private Member to move in Committee on the Education (Administrative Provisions) Bill for the establishment of a permanent medical department at the Board of Education, he can say now what medical machinery the Board intend to adopt to carry out the proposals of the Bill; and, if he cannot give this information, whether he will say on the advice of what experts or reports he intends to act.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. MCKENNA,): I regret I cannot yet add anything to the Answer which I gave to my hon. friend the Member for West Bradford on 15th March to the effect that it would be premature to decide what machinery will be required by the Board of Education on the Education (Administrative Provisions) Bill becoming law, but my hon. friend may rest assured that I am fully alive to the importance of this question. The staff of the Board of Education can be increased with the consent of the Treasury without legislation. I may add that the Board's staff already includes two medical men.
  MR. WEDGWOODasked on the advice of what experts the right hon. Gentleman intended to act.
  MR. MCKENNA: The whole subject at the time of last year's Bill was considered by experts, whose names are too numerous to mention.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: It is not the fact that the clause dealing with medical inspection of school children was added in opposition to the wishes of the Government?
  MR. MCKENNAwas understood to reply that the hon. Member was not entitled to say that.

  Nomenclature for Non-provided Schools—Skipton National School.
  MR. CLOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the fact that a circular, No. 549, addressed, 15th November, 1906, to the managers of the national school, Skipton,

  365
  relating to the new nomenclature for non-provided schools then in preparation, that a properly convened meeting of those managers considered the circular on 11th December, 1906, and resolved that, by reason of there being two Church of England schools in the town, in order to avoid confusion, they would choose the name of Skipton Parish Church School, and sent a copy of this resolution to the local education authority, and that those managers were informed, on 18th April, 1907, that the name of the school as printed in the forthcoming list will be Skipton Parish Church of England, he will state why the wishes of the managers have been disregarded and the words "of England" added to the epithet.
  MR. MCKENNA: The Board considered that wherever "Church" was proposed the full name "Church of England" should be used, and this rule was followed in the case of the Skipton school. But I am considering, in connection with the next issue of the list, whether any modification of this rule should be allowed in these cases where the name "Parish Church" was asked for.

  Nomenclature for Non-provided Schools—"Church of England" Schools.
  MR. CLOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he will cancel the new official list of several thousands of elementary denominational schools to which the epithet Church of England has been given, in view of the statement of his predecessor that in the great majority of cases the excision of the word national from the title of the schools would not necessitate the insertion of any other phrase, Church of England or anything else, in its place, that it would be only in the small minority of cases where the excision would cause confusion between one school and another, that a distinctive term of some kind would be required, and that the contemplated official list would be of a temporary character; and whether he will compile another list, after consultation with the local education authorities interested therein, on the principles laid down by his predecessor on 20th December, 1906.
  MR. MCKENNA: For the reasons given in my Answer to my hon. friend
  366
  on 30th April,† I have not found it possible to restrict the use of the term "Church of England" to schools where the omission of a distinctive epithet would cause confusion. Some seven thousand schools are involved in the change, and the staff of the Board would be quite inadequate to admit of the local circumstances in each case being individually considered. It was, therefore, necessary to proceed on certain general principles. The list of schools is an annual publication, and I shall be prepared to consider any objection to specific names which may be submitted to me.

  Grants to University Colleges.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the colleges participating in the grant of £100,000 to university colleges in 1906 were the same as those participating in the grant of £27,000 in 1904; whether the same colleges will participate in the grant of £100,000 estimated for during the present financial year; and on what principle the grant is allocated.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. RUNCIMAN,): The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. A Committee which has been appointed to advise the Treasury as to the distribution of the grant will consider what colleges are to participate in the grant in the present financial year, and on what principle the grant is to be allocated.

  Report of Inspectors of University Colleges.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury when the Report of the inspectors of university colleges for the last financial year was received; and when it will be laid upon the Table.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: I hope the Report will be received before the end of the month. It will probably be laid soon after it is received.

  West Riding Secondary School for Girls.
  MR. NUSSEY: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether application has been made by the Pontefract Secondary Education
  †See (4) Debates, clxxiii., 702–3.

  367
  Committee for the purchase of three and a-half acres of land, situated near Tanshelf station, for the purpose of enabling the authority to comply with the requirements of the West Riding County Council for the erection of a secondary school for girls; whether the land has been offered by the Duchy on a lease for ninety-nine years at a rental of £60 or £20 per acre per annum; whether the Chancellor is aware that no other suitable site is available for the erection of a school; and, if so, whether he is prepared to advise an offer on terms more favourable to the district, seeing that the land is now let at an agricultural rental of about 40s. per acre.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (Sir HENRY FOWLER,): I have received an application from the Pontefract Secondary Education Committee for the purchase of land for the erection of a secondary school for girls. I am advised by the Surveyor-General of the Duchy that building land in the neighbourhood in a much less favourable position has been let by the Duchy on building leases at the same rate as that named to the Education Committee. The matter has been fully considered by the Council of the Duchy, and they are of opinion that the land should not be let at less than its value.

  Scudamore Charity for Decayed Men at Hereford.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Elland, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he is aware that in 1839 a sum of £100 per year was left by the Honourable Mrs. Scudamore, of Holme Lacy, Hereford, for the benefit of ten poor decayed men; whether he is aware that one of the recipients of this charity is a farmer who has two farms of about 300 acres, and holds several public positions, such as district and parish councillor, school manager, and guardian; whether this recipient has drawn the amount of £10 per year for several years; and whether he will take the necessary steps towards compelling him to return the money obtained, which was left for an entirely different purpose.
  MR. TREVELYAN: Complaint has been made to
  368
  the Charity Commissioners that a person described as a small farmer has been a recipient of this charity, and for this and other difficulties in regard to the administration of the charity, the case has been referred to an Assistant Commissioner for inquiry. He now has been in communication with the trustees and the inquiry will be held, if a day generally convenient can be fixed, in the second week of June next.

  Whale Killing and the Herring Fishery.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that there is a considerable increase in the number of steamers employed in the killing of whales; if he is aware that the local authority is powerless to exercise any control or to mitigate the public nuisance and danger arising from vast masses of putrifying flesh about the stations; if he is aware that the Norwegians protested so strongly against whaling stations on their coast that a law was passed forbidding them for a considerable period; if he is aware that since British and Foreign companies have been actively engaged in the indiscriminate slaughter of whales the herring fishing on the West Coast has been rapidly falling off, and that this year a certain station where three years ago 300 vessels were employed there are now none; and if he will consider the advisability of introducing a Bill to regulate in some degree the operations now going on.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,): The information in the first and third portions of my hon. friend's Question is new to me; in regard to the second, I understand that although one of the provisions in the by-laws has been held by the sheriff substitute to be ultra vires, the other provisions remain and should be enforced, so that the local authority are not powerless, as suggested by my hon. friend; they can compel removal of any nuisance found to exist, and have made by-laws dealing with the conduct of the whaling industry; the fourth portion is an expression of opinion, and a matter of controversy. And in regard to the last portion, I have already introduced a Bill which is now before the House and which proposes to regulate this industry.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: Is it the case that local authorities have practically no control over this nuisance?
  *MR. J. DEWAR: Is it not the case that local authorities have issued an instruction which is loyally carried out insisting that the carcase of the whale must be cleared away in forty-eight hours, and was not the fishing at Barra, the most important fishing station on the West Coast of Scotland, the most prosperous on record last year at the very time the whalers were most active?
  MR. SINCLAIR: That is so, Sir.

  House Letting in Scotland.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that, at a meeting of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, held in Aberdeen last week, attended by 132 delegates from trades unions from all parts of Scotland, representing 122,000 tradesmen, the house-letting question was considered, and a resolution passed in favour of reform; and whether, in view of the importance of this question, he will say when the Report of the Departmental Committee, which some time ago concluded its inquiry on this subject, will be issued.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The Committee have finished taking evidence, and will lose no time in preparing their Report. But I am not able to name any date.

  Scottish Estimates.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will arrange for the Reports of the Fishery Board and the Local Government Board for Scotland to be in the hands of Members before the Votes are taken.
  MR. SINCLAIR: As my hon. friend is aware, Scottish Estimates will probably be taken on 30th May, which is some-what earlier than usual. Every effort will be made by the Departments to prepare and issue their Reports in time; but I am a little doubtful.

  Bazaar Baffles in Scotland.
  MR. WATT: I bag to ask the Lord-Advocate whether his attention has been
  370
  called to the system of raffling at bazaars in connection with churches and clubs in Scotland; why, if this practice is contrary to law, the authorities do not institute proceedings; and if, in view of the fact that the law has fallen into disuse, he will introduce legislation to make the practice legal.
  The following Questions were also on the Paper:—
  MR. WATT: To ask the Lord-Advocate whether his attention has been called to the fact that newspapers in Scotland published particulars and results of raffles in connection with church bazaars and clubs; why, if this practice is contrary to law, the authorities do not institute proceedings; and if, in view of the fact that the law has fallen into disuse, he will introduce legislation to make the practice legal.
  MR SUTHERLAND: To ask the Lord-Advocate, in view of the fast that during a long period of years almost every bazaar held in Scotland has had as part of its equipment the subscription sale system, that the attitude of the criminal authorities has induced not only local authorities, but the public generally, to treat the law on the subject as obsolete, and that arrangements and commitments have been made in good faith in connection with bazaars for this year, whether he can make any statement on the future policy of his Department in the matter which will be a guide to persons promoting undertakings of a charitable nature.
  THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,): I may be allowed to answer this and the two succeeding Questions together. These practices—whether called raffling or subscription sales, or plainly denominated lotteries—appear to be contrary to law. For some years the law was not enforced with rigour; and a certain practice appears to have arisen of allowing its non-observance in view of the good objects which it was urged an evasion of the law would promote. Various appeals have reached me on this head from churches and clubs, and in at least one case from a local trades council, and I have answered all of them by refusal. It has not been

  371
  decided that the law is in desuetude. On the contrary it has recently been enforced, and criminal conviction obtained. In addition, numerous warnings have been given. The only authority which can sanction schemes as exceptions to the general law is the authority of the Act of Parliament. I have no such authority, but am bound to administer the law irrespective of whether the delinquents are or are not actuated by philanthropic motives. With reference to the concluding Question by my hon. friend the Member for Elgin, persons promoting charitable undertakings must, I fear, expect no further warning than this Answer.
  MR. C. E. PRICE: In view of the fact that the State recognises that the churches are committing a breach of the law, cannot an exception be made on behalf of friendly societies when doing a like thing on behalf of a widow?
  MR. THOMAS SHAW: We cannot take into account the motive when enforcing the law.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: Is it intended to prosecute in all these cases?
  MR. THOMAS SHAW: I have no doubt a prosecution will take place in the ordinary course on information being laid.

  Leitrim Evicted Tenant—Case of James Daly.
  MR. THOMAS F. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners have received their inspector's Report with regard to the reinstatement of James Daly, Kiltoghert, Carrick-on-Shannon, an evicted tenant on the Lauder and Gumley Estate, in county Leitrim; and, as this man is at present in receipt of outdoor relief, if arrangements will be made to have him reinstated at once on the farm of land which he formerly held.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL,): The Estates Commissioners have inquired into James Daly's application for reinstatement in a holding which is now
  372
  occupied by another tenant. The Commissioners do not consider Daly to be a suitable person for reinstatement.

  Lord Gough's Gort Estate.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have succeeded in completing negotiations for the sale and purchase between Lord Gough, charyé d'affaires at Dresden, and his tenantry on the Lough Cutra property, Gort; and, if not, will he take measures to try and bring about this most desired result.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have had several interviews with Lord Gough and the tenants' representatives and as a result the landlord agreed to sell the tenanted holdings at such prices as the Commissioners should consider reasonable, and also to sell such untenanted lands as the Commissioners should think necessary at the Commissioners' price. Lord Gough, however, made it a condition that the sporting rights should be reserved to him as he intended to reside at Lough Cutra, and upon the tenants demurring to this he offered to agree that if the tenants' crops should be damaged by game, he would pay such compensation as the Land Commission might consider proper. Lord Gough's offer appeared to the Commissioners to be reasonable, but the tenants refused to accept it, and the negotiations, therefore, came to an end. The Commissioners do not see that they can take any further action in the matter.

  Uneconomic Holdings near Gort.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been directed to the uneconomic condition of a number of annuitant holders of land in the townland of Roo, near Gort, county Galway; and whether, in view of the proximity of their holdings to the largegrazing farm of Ballyvoher, in the hands of the landlord, Mr. W. S. Taylor, of Castle Taylor, Ardrahan, he will instruct the Commissioners to open negotiations with Mr. Taylor so as to try and secure this untenanted land in the interest of the Government tenants.
  MR. BIRRELL: Mr. Shawe Taylor has agreed to sell to the Estates Commissioners as much of his untenanted land as they may require. The Commissioners have decided to take 616 acres, and a further area of 347 acres is available if they should require it. The townland of Ballyvoher, comprising 160 acres, was offered to the Commissioners, but they consider this land to be unsuitable for their purpose.

  Galway Poor Rate Collectors.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that the Local Government Board have put into operation the Public Bodies Order for 1904, in the county of Galway, and that, under this Order, poor rate collectors had to enter into new bonds; whether the new bonds compelled them to lodge the full amount of their warrants, whether collectable or otherwise, at the end of each financial year; and whether he will instruct the Local Government Board not to carry forward at present irrecoverable arrears into the new warrants in cases where the collector is prepared to make an affidavit that those arrears are irrecoverable.
  MR. BIRRELL: The facts are substantially as stated in the Question. The Public Bodies Order, however, provides that when the collections of rates have been closed the lists of arrears are to be submitted to the county council for their consideration, and subsequently to the Local Government Board; and any arrears which are declared to be irrecoverable are to be refunded to the collectors. The present system has been found to work satisfactorily, and does not impose my undue hardship on the collectors. When any exceptional circumstances exist in any collection district, the Board always give the case full consideration.

  Irish Council Bill Grant.
  CAPTAIN WARING: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the £650,000 to be given to Ireland is an extra grant out of the Imperial purse; and, if so, whether the equivalent grant will be given to Scotland.
  MR. ASQUITH: If effect is given by Parliament to the proposals made in the
  374
  Irish Council Bill, the additional sum assigned to Irish services will be a charge against the Exchequer of the United Kingdom. Until the Bill has become law, I think it would be premature to discuss the suggestion contained in the second part of the Question; but I may say at once, that as at present advised, the case does not appear to me to be one to which the principle, or rather the practice, of equivalent grants is applicable.

  County Clare—Deductions from Parliamentary Grants.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he can state the amount of Parliamentary Grants in relief of rates recently deducted from county Clare; and if he will state the causes of such deduction and the amount in each instance.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: The proportion, of the total amount drawn from the Guarantee Fund in 1907, chargeable to County Clare amounted to £870 11s. 8d. This sum is made up as follows:—Drawn under the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, £272; Drawn under the Irish Land Act, 1903—Arrears of Annuities, £164; Unearned dividend on issues of stock, £167; Advarice dividend, £96; Interest due but not received, £109; Unproductive balance, £63; total, £871.

  Ballinspittle Mails.
  MR. CREAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the change made in the despatch of mails from Ballinspittle, county Cork, from 4.45 p.m. to 2 p.m. on Sundays has caused inconvenience in the district; and whether, seeing that under the old system letters could be answered on the day on which they were received, and that under the new system this had been rendered impossible, under these circumstance he will cause the old system to be reverted to.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I have called for a Report on this subject, and on its receipt I will send the hon. Member a reply.

  SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDONreported from the Committee of Selection; That they

  375
  had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A (in respect of the Limited Partnerships Bill): Air. Secretary Gladstone and Mr. Herbert Samuel; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the Limited Partnerships Bill): Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. Kearley.
  Sir BRAMPTON GURDONfurther reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following fifteen Members in respect of the Limited Partnerships Bill: Sir William Holland, Mr. Holden, Mr. Isaacs, Sir Andrew Torrance, Mr. Beale, Mr. Raphael, Major Dunne, Mr. George Greenwood, Sir William Hornby, Mr. Brotherton, Colonel Warde, Mr. Burdett-Coutts, Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Murphy, and Mr. Haviland-Burke.
  Reports to lie upon the Table.

NEW BILL.

  TEACHERS OF MUSIC REGISTRATION BILL.
  "To provide for the Registration of Teachers of Music," presented by Mr. O'Neill; supported by Sir John Brunner, Sir Henry Craik, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, and Mr. George White; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 191.]
  SUPPLY [8TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1907–8.

    REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £11,117,751, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1908, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office, including Telegraphs."
    *THE POSTMASTER - GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): I propose to make some general observations with regard to the work of the Post Office during the year. I am sorry I am not able to give so favourable an account of the financial position of the Post Office as was the case last year. It is true there has been a considerable addition to the revenue, but the increase has not been so great as was expected twelve months ago. While the general trade of the country has been good, the revenue of the Post Office has shown a certain want of elasticity. Still there has been a considerable increase on the year's receipts. The gross increase has been £350,000, but the department anticipated about £250,000 more; and for the coming year we estimate an increase of £430,000 over the past year. The absence of the usual elasticity is due to various causes. Some hon. Members may think it due to the advent of a Liberal Government and the presence of an incompetent Postmaster-General. I admit both premisses, but I do not think either of them contributed to the result. Whatever may be the case, the business of the Post Office has not fallen off from either of these causes. The absence of elasticity is due in the first place to the fact that last year we did not have a General Election, and I do not think many hon. Members will be anxious to bring about a General Election simply in order to increase the receipts of the Post Office. Then, there is no doubt it is largely due to change of taste on the part of the public. Last year there was an abnormal number of picture post-cards purchased by the public. That craze, I am afraid, is to a certain extent diminishing. At one time valentines held the sway; then came the Christmas-card. The former have gradually disappeared, and I can only hope the public will direct its superfluous energy and spare halfpence into another channel equally profitable to the Post Office. In connection with the telegraphs, there is little doubt that the Street Betting Act of last year had also an adverse effect on the revenue. That, however, I for one do not regret. But I am afraid that the chief reason for the falling off in elasticity is the very large increase in the use of the telephone by the public. This is cutting into the only profitable part of the telegraph service, viz., the short distance telegrams in large towns. It is going further than that. Conversation by telephone is

    377
    largely superseding the use of letters and post-cards. That is a serious matter as affecting what is the sheet anchor of postal revenue—namely, the penny post. In spite of this, the department has endeavoured in the last year to extend the telephone system as far as practicable. Including certain wires which we have laid down in behalf of the National Telephone Company, in view of taking over the lines of that company in 1912, the mileage of wire has been increased by 78,000 miles in the course of the year. A considerable part of that has been telephonic extensions in various parts of Ireland. Both telephone and telegraph lines, I may say, would be more rapidly increased if the Postmaster-General had more adequate powers for dealing with individuals, corporations or other public bodies, which in parts of the country are great obstructers by refusing way leaves. It not infrequently happens that on the same day I receive communications complaining on the part of some public body that the Post Office are neglecting to extend the telephonic system in their area, the same post brings an absolute refusal of the ordinary way leave from the corporation itself. In spite of this, however, the wires have been considerably extended.
    SIR GILBERT PARKER: Has not the revenue for the telephonic system shown an increase?
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Yes, and that is the only satisfactory point. It is at last, taken as a whole, on a paying basis. But at the same time we are losing on the telegraphs. In regard to the general position of wireless telegraphy, the question of the ratification of the Radio-Telegraphic Convention is now before a Select Commtitee of this House. The Post Office has naturally, therefore, held its hands to a certain extent in issuing licences; but I have been able, nevertheless, to issue licences to various British companies during the year. For the coming year the expenditure is estimated to be larger than the normal owing to increased services, and, of course, there is a certain cloud over the expenditure of the coming year pending the report of the Select Committee on the wages of postal servants.
    378
    That leads me to the point of how far under present circumstances I was entitled to press the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a greater grant than he has already given for the improvement of the postal service. I have always held that the balance of Post Office revenue ought to be expended, in part, in the interests of what I may call the postal consumer. That policy I have been able to carry out since I came into office. In that connection I do not think the public have any cause of complaint against the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I did not feel I could approach him as strongly this year as I did last year, when he described me as one of the most sturdy beggars among his colleagues. But if I have not been so fortunate this year it is not because I have given up hope; it is rather that I am biding my time and may make an even greater demand another year. I must point out, moreover, in taking the two years together, that he has given me no less a sum than £350,000 a year. Last year my right hon. friend placed at my disposal in order to make postal improvements the sum of £156,000. This was for home reforms. Then there is an additional sum of £200,000 this year, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has allowed me to take into the Postal Union, to be devoted to the reduction of foreign postage. That is a substantial sum to be taken into account.
    SIR GILBERT PARKER: What are the reforms to be?
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: If the hon. Member had been a little more patient he would have seen that I was about to give some details. The substantial result of the reform is that a reduction is made in the charge for the lower denomination of postal orders, and in the higher denominations of the parcel post a very considerable reduction is made. Then the guarantee for a telephone or telegraph is reduced from a half to a third, and I am glad to know that great advantage has been taken of that concession. Another concession, it may interest the Committee to recollect, was that there should be, if possible, a delivery on three days a week in every part of the kingdom, however remote. In the last few months the department has increased the deliveries to three times a week in a very large

    379
    number of places, involving not less than one million letters a year, and thus the acceleration of letters in the rural districts will be increased. The Postal Union reforms are twofold. In the first place it has been often thought that it would be an advantage if people writing to this country might be enabled to include the cost of the reply. The Department has been able to secure that reform by means of an international coupon which can be enclosed in the letter. But we have been unable to induce the other great countries to agree to a substantial reduction in the 2½d. rate for letters. Their finances did not admit of a reduction being granted or, at all events, they would not agree to the suggestion of a 1d. or 2d. But the British delegates have obtained almost an equivalent. At present a letter sent abroad must not weigh more than half an ounce for 2½d. This weight is now raised to an ounce, and the charge of 2½d. will cover it, instead of the former charge of 5d. A letter weighing 20z., instead of costing 10d., will now cost 4d., and a letter of 30z., instead of costing 1s. 3d., will now be carried for 5½d.
    *MR. HENNIKER HEATON: What percentage of the letters were over half an ounce in weight?
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I am afraid I have not the figures.
    *MR. HENNIKER HEATON: Was it not only one in a thousand?
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: That is not the point. One of the objects in view in these suggested reforms was that correspondents should not have to consider every half-sheet of notepaper they put into a letter, but that they should enjoy the same freedom to post their letters abroad as they enjoyed under their domestic postage system.
    The principal reforms carried out and coming into operation this year include a substantial reduction on the postage of newspapers, magazines, and trade journals to and from Canada. This reform has, I am glad to say, met with very great approval on the part of the Canadian Government, and I think that it has given great satisfaction at home. I have also been enabled to reduce the postage on literature for the blind, and practi-
    380
    cally to put these afflicted people on the same level as those who still enjoy the use of their sight. The Braille system involves heavy type for each book, and my object has been to treat the volumes of literature for the blind as advantageously in point of cheapness as those for the use of readers with their sight. There is also a small reform for the comfort and convenience of the public desiring to communicate with India and elsewhere. Anyone can telegraph to an English port or to Brindisi, and the telegram will be sent out by the steamer from that port to India or elsewhere. I am also experimenting with stamp machines, so that by means of putting a penny in the slot in these machines at the stations the public may obtain a stamp. The system is not yet complete, but up to the present the experiment has been very profitable, because when the pennies are put in the slot the stamp is not always forthcoming. These are the machines I for one rather approve; but on the other hand, I am sorry to say, there has been a machine in use which suddenly dispensed 3s. 6d. worth of penny stamps before anyone put a penny in at all. Among the other questions which have engaged my attention are the charges and the facilities now in existence between France and the Continent generally and England as to telegraph lines and telephone service. I hope before long to be able to reduce the charge affecting the public service in this matter, and at the same time to add greater facilities. Another subject that has engaged my attention is how best to treat the lottery circulars which are poured with so much profusion into this country. It ought to be clearly understood, however, that it is neither expedient nor right for the Postmaster-General on his own initiative, whatever may be his suspicions, to open a letter which is gummed and closed, and about whose contents there can be no knowledge obtainable without opening it. Circulars that are open, on the other hand, are examined and destroyed when they are found to relate to lotteries or other matters of an undesirable character. In the case of sealed letters of this description, if attention is drawn to them, the Department always refers the question to the police, so that, if possible, they may immediately take proceedings against the authors. I think it is obvious from from a communication I have received

    381
    that I have been able to take some effectual steps in checking the abuse. A correspondent paid me what I consider to be the greatest compliment I have received in my administrative life by writing me a letter which begun thus—
    "Mr. S. Buxton,—It is with the greatest contempt that I address you, knowing you to be a person of a thieving, mean, and despicable nature, and to have the fact impressed upon me by the circumstances that we have such a man to hold the office of Postmaster-General absolutely makes me feel inclined, after the manner of hundreds more, to turn against the British race altogether."
    That letter is from one of the circulators of these lottery tickets. I have appointed a Committee to inquire into the question how far the Post Office can be utilised for assisting small employers to insure against risks under the Workmen's Compensation Act. The Committee is presided over by Lord Farrer, and I hope that the Report will be soon forthcoming.
    It is often believed by hon. Members and others that there is undue delay in carrying out inquiries into or promises to increase postal facilities. But the solution of these questions is not so simple as is generally believed. During the past year the Department has been enabled to spend £200,000 on the extension of the underground telegraph system throughout the country. On this particular item there has now been an expenditure of £1,250,000, and the authorities desire in the coming year to increase these facilities as far as possible. It is easy to suggest reforms, but every suggested reform costs money, and it is not always the crass stupidity and obstinacy of the Department which causes it to decline to carry out particular reforms in a particular space of time. Sometimes what is believed to be a step in advance in the matter of postal reform, is in reality a retrograde movement. It is absolutely essential in a large service such as the Post Office to secure uniformity and simplicity, and, though each suggestion of improvement might confer an advantage in one quarter, it might also cause delay, confusion, and disappointment in other quarters.
    I have dealt so far with the administration of the Post Office as regards the public. I now come to the other side. The Postmaster-General is by far the largest employer of labour in the United Kingdom. He has under him in the
    382
    Department 200,000 persons one way and another, of whom 50,000 are women. This is a question which has given me a great deal of anxiety, and it is one to which I have given my best possible attention. I have always said, and I think the Committee will bear me out in saying so—I have always said publicly that the Government, speaking for any Government, ought as an employer of labour to set a good example to other employers; but at the same time we do not want to set up in our public services a privileged class. We want to consider the interests of the taxpayers as well, and while the Government ought to be a good employer of labour, in my opinion, it ought not to be a lavish employer of labour at the expense of the taxpayers. There are different classes of labour for which the Department is responsible, namely, those working for the Post Office under contractors, the mechanic or engineering class; and, of course, the postal employees themselves. As to the class under contractors, I found out after I came into office that I had hardly any control whatever over the conditions of employment, and one of the first things I was enabled to do with the consent of the Treasury was to appoint an inspector to examine and report in regard to the conditions of labour under the various contractors to the Post office, so that for the first time the Postmaster-General might have personal knowledge and personal control over these conditions. Having a parental interest in the Fair Wages Resolution, I have endeavoured to see that it is carried out, so far as it can be, fairly and properly. We have had a Departmental Committee appointed, and I hope it will work out some scheme for the better, the more efficient, and the more uniform working of the service. The fair wages clause is a very important one in Government contracts. I have introduced into every new contract additional clauses as to the wages to be paid, etc., all of which will I hope tend to the improvement of the conditions of those working under contractors. But in regard to this matter you cannot go with a great leap at once. The matter must be dealt with gradually, and improved conditions must come year by year. One of the great difficulties in connection with this question is that of ascertaining what is the recognised fair rate of wages in any particular industry.

    383
    I have experienced this difficulty lately in regard to carmen's wages. There is no recognised rate of wages in that particular trade, but it was obvious to me that the men were underpaid and overworked. After some communications on the subject, what I have been enabled to do is to go to the contractors and say— "I do not say that at the present moment there is a recognised rate, but I am going to say what I think you ought to pay, and what I consider a fair rate of wages in the trade." I am bound to say that the contractors met me in a fair spirit, and I think the arrangement come to has given satisfaction to the persons in the employment of the contractors. The wages for single horse men is 25s. a week, and for two horse men 27s. a week. In addition to that they both get a complete uniform which represents 1s. 3d. a week.
    MR. SEDDON: Does that apply to the provinces as well as to London?
    *MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: No, it applies to London. As to the provinces I am still in correspondence. I think my hon. friend has drawn my attention to one or two cases in which the men have been underpaid. I am very glad that the cases have been brought to my attention. These were cases in which the wages appeared to be unduly low, and I shall have the matter inquired into at the earliest possible opportunity. The same remarks apply to the clothing contracts, but unfortunately in regard to these it is not easy to act at once. The contracts had in some instances been entered into before I really had sufficient time to study the question. In regard to all these matters we are hampered by existing contracts, and for some time to come that will be so in many cases. There again it seems to me that it is not right to accept necessarily the lowest tender. It seems to me that the contracts should be spread over a large area so that one could get experience of the way in which the various employees are paid, and further that when new contracts are given out there will be a better chance of choosing between the good and the sweating employers. I think something can be done by spreading the contracts over a large area, and by being by no means tied
    384
    down to taking the lowest offer. Then as regards employment at the Post Office factory at Holloway, I told the Committee last year that I had endeavoured, as far as possible, to average the work over the year, that is to say, to arrange, as far as possible, the work of those employed in the factory so as to spread it evenly over the year, and thereby prevent the necessity of discharging a large number of men at one time and taking them on at another. The carrying out of that policy has taken some time, but I think it has now been placed on a basis which will obviate the system of employing a minimum of men at one time and adding largely to the number of temporary hands at another. There is a matter in connection with the factory which I think will interest the Committee. There has been instituted at the factory a system which I understand is in operation at a considerable number of private establishments. It is what is called the "suggestion system." That is to say, any workman employed there may make suggestions as to the design of tools, the improvement of machines, or the methods of manufacture, the saving of material, and the prevention of accident?. They are encouraged to make their suggestions by rewards given to them when they propose anything of a practical character, and I am glad to know that in eleven months no less than 108 rewards, averaging from 5s. to £5, have been given to various workmen under the Post Office for suggestions of that nature. I think that everybody will agree that that is a good thing to do. It will interest the men in their work, encourage them to make suggestions, and to have confidence that, if the suggestions should be carried out, they will be rewarded. Therefore it is a scheme which merits the attention of the Committee.
    As to the enormous number of men engaged in the actual postal work and the claims they have put forward for improved conditions, their case is now before a Parliamentary Committee. That is in accordance with what they themselves desired, and it is not for me to anticipate—for I have no knowledgewhatever—what may be the conclusion at which the Committee will arrive. This, I think, I may say, however, that as the men themselves desired a Parliamentary Committee, which I thought they were entitled to

    385
    have, I presume, now that they have appealed to Caæar, they will be prepared to accept the verdict which Cæsar may give. In regard to sanitary improvements, medical services, Home Office inspection, and other matters of that sort, alterations have been made which we hope will improve the conditions of the service. We have been endeavouring as far as we can to limit the over-pressure in the summer season, and the excessive overtime to which that often leads. Unfortunately, while in the summertime the work increases, the staff at that time is at a minimum, owing to the holidays which are granted at the best season of the year. We have endeavoured, as far as possible, to deal with that situation, and while it is necessary to employ a certain amount of temporary labour, we have endeavoured in other ways, and by other moans, to diminish the over-pressure and the overtime during the summer season.
    There is another matter to which the Committee will allow me to refer, for I know that it is one in which a good many Members take an interest. That is what I may call the blot on the escutcheon of the Post Office, namely, the position of the boy messengers. We have to part with a very large number of these boys at the age of sixteen. I may say that we part with them at that age because we believe that if their services are to be dispensed with at all, it is better for them to go then rather than at eighteen or nineteen years of age. The position of the matter is this. It is a matter over which I have no control. It is due to an arrangement of some years standing between the Post Office, the War Office, and the Admiralty, under which—and I think very legitimately—ex-soldiers and ex-blue-jackets of good character, on leaving the Army and the Navy, should be received into the service of the Post Office. These men were accepted if there was nothing serious in their record against them in order to prevent their going on the streets. The arrangement was that one-half of the postmen's places should be given to ex-soldiers and ex-sailors and the other half to the boy messengers. I confess that it has distressed me very much to receive communications from many parents and others on behalf of those boys whose services have to be
    386
    dispensed with at sixteen years of age. It is useless to say to the parents that when the boys came into the service of the Post Office at thirteen or fourteen years of age they were informed that it was not a permanent service, and that they had signed a paper to that effect. Every parent, of course, thinks his own child is the best, and that he will certainly succeed, and the parents cannot be persuaded that they have not to a certain extent been taken in when they are asked to take the boys away from the Post Office service. We have given as much time as possible to the consideration of this question with the view of limiting the sevcrity of the treatment of these boys, and I think that we have with some success met the problem. I have now come to an arrangement with the War Office under which, while declining to take a single ex-soldier more into the service, or to place further posts at their disposal to the displacement of the boy messengers, there is to be greater elasticity. In future instead of the ex-soldiers being as now entitled to certain places, I have full freedom to distribute them as fairly as I can among the various branches of the service. Representations were at once made to me that, in adopting this course, we were injuring the interests of the telegraphists or of the learners who would become telegraphists, and that we were endeavouring to introduce those men in order to reduce wages, and so forth. I can hardly believe that those who made these assertions really made them in good faith. It is quite well known that the effect of introducing these men into these positions is to create vacancies for boy messengers, and that not a single person in the service can possibly suffer from the intrusion of those ex-soldiers. They will be taken on the establishment when they have had a certain amount of training, at the same rate of wages and on the same conditions as the present telegrapists. There is no question of introducing cheap labour or anything of that sort. We are doing what we can to direct the attention of employers and others to the boy messengers, and, I am glad to say, in some cases very successfully. It depends very largely on the energy and enterprise of the postmaster, and I should like to pick out particularly the postmaster of Derby, who has been most successful in finding

    387
    places for these boys, many of whom have been enabled, by the admirable training he has given them, to obtain places on their own initiative. At one time there was some prejudice against these boys. They were not, perhaps, as smart as they might be, but having seen a good deal of the article, I beg to recommend it as a first-class article.
    Last year I told the Committee that I fully recognised the Post Office associations as trade unions, with a right of combination and of respresentation through the representatives of different classes. I have nothing to regret in having done so. I think it is the right thing to do, and I believe it has been a satisfactory step. Indeed, I have gone further lately, and have drawn up fresh regulations in consultation with the associations themselves in order to carry out smoother working in regard to this matter. It has been my strong and earnest desire throughout to bring about better relations between the various classes of the postal service, and to bring them, as far as I can, into personal relations with the heads of the Department, because I am a great believer in personal relations as a means of smoothing over difficulties and removing antagonisms. I think these associations and those they represent were inclined to be over suspicious in regard to the Department. They profess to think that the Department was actuated by sinister motives. I am quite certain that the desire of all those who represent the Department is to do their best and the greatest possible justice to the staff as a whole.
    The Postmaster-General's position is not an easy task. He has to bear the fierce light of publicity. There are upon him the eyes of some 40,000,000 of population, the eyes of 670 Members of Parliament, all of whom have constituents with eyes upon them, and there are also something like 150,000 watchful and critical employees. Nor is it a light task, because his relations with such a large army of employees must necessarily lead, not only to the larger questions to which I have referred, but also to personal matters, all of which are difficult and take time, and many of which are very painful, though some are amusing. I can only express my indebtedness to hon. Members who write to me, or button-hole me, or question me,
    388
    for the very conciliatory way in which they treat me in regard to these matters. The service is a great one. I believe—may, I am sure—that it is actuated from the top to the bottom, with very few exceptions, by real zeal and interest in the work of the Department. I have had many opportunities during the last year of meeting all classes and all ranks of Post Office servants, and I have been very much struck by the public zeal which actuates this great service, and which, I think, is appreciated by the public. I have endeavoured during the time I have been at the Post Office to make advances in every direction. I have done something, or have, at least, endeavoured to do something, for the comfort and convenience of the public, and I have endeavoured, as far as I could, to improve the conditions of those working in the Post Office and to bring about a better understanding and more cordial relations.
    *MR. HENNIKER HEATONsaid he would endeavour to presents picture of the Department from the public point of view. The revenue of the Post Office and Telegraphs Department was £22,000,000, and the expenditure was £17,600,000. The profits of the British Post Office amounted to £4,600,000, exactly £1,000,000 sterling over the amount they were ten years ago, although the expenditure had increased to a large extent. The predecessors of the right hon. Gentleman had sought, in the interests of the public, to limit the amount of the profits which should go into the Treasury. It was held that the Post Office ought not to make profits, and the proposal was made that all above the present profits should go towards extending, cheapening, and facilitating postal communications. He recommended that suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman, who had been going about the country thanking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for having given back to him but a small proportion of the enormous profits which had been made by the Department. His right hon. friend had made a speech which put him in considerable difficulty. Last year the right hon. Gentleman employed 195,000 or nearly 200,000 people, which was 50,000 more than ten years ago. In five years 250,000 people would be employed in the Post Office service, and no doubt,

    389
    they would be continually making demands upon the Postmaster-General. He would suggest to him a system which would put an end to those calls upon his time and attention. The suggestion was that there should be appointed a Public Service Board similar to that which had been established in Australia. The board there consisted of three able men free from political influences, irremovable by Government, who dealt with all questions in relation to wages and emoluments paid in the various public services, and their decisions gave general satisfaction. Such a body dealing with the complaints of Post Office employees would relieve the Department and Members from much annoyance and from what might become a source of danger to the public service. In an inquiry for establishing such a board the right hon. Gentleman would have every assistance from the Opposition side of the House. From a study of post offices in various parts of the world for the last twenty years, he could say that the British Post Office was one of the best in the world, but it had a number of faults which no business mind could tolerate. The Postmaster-General was armed with full authority against the public and had no responsibility for the defalcations and errors of his servants. No private person conducting such a business would be allowed such irresponsibility, and he suggested that the powers and authority of the Postmaster-General needed revision. The right hon. Gentleman had obtained a cheer by his reference to the reduced postage to Canada. Under the now system a pamphlet weighing a pound could be sent to Canada, 6,000 miles away, for 1d., a wonderful concession for which they were thankful; but then to send a pamphlet or magazine to the Reform Club half a mile off would cost 4d. The arrangement with Canada, moreover, was mean to an extraordinary degree, and one which could not long be tolerated. When he worked hard for postage reduction he did not bargain for a system by which magazines could be sent to Canada for ½d. each while those sent across the road would cost 3½d. in postage. By the new arrangement Canada was made to pay two-thirds of the postage. It was an astonishing arrangement, and would excite laughter here though perhaps not in Canada. The Canadian people were our most
    390
    loyal people and they were grateful for improved means of communication, but to make them pay two-thirds of the cost of the reduction in postage of our magazines was ridiculous. He was surprised to find that the Postmaster-General made no reference to the inconsistencies of foreign postal rates. From Dover to Calais the postage of a letter was 2½d., but that letter could be sent to Fiji, 12,000 miles, for 1d. A letter could be sent to New York for 2½d., but through the United States to Vancouver, 6,000 miles, it could be sent for 1d. Stronger efforts should be made to remove such anomalies. He appealed to the Postmaster-General to begin a universal penny postage with the United States, where there were probably more British-born subjects of the King than in his distant dominions elsewhere. These people sent £1,600,000 in small postal orders to this country in the course of the year, and the establishment of a penny postage would be hailed with satisfaction by the English-speaking world. In the telegraph system reforms were required. From this country to France the rate was 2d. a word, but in Franco, as in England, it was ½d. a word. Why did we shout for entente cordiale and charge France for a telegraph from Dover to Calais four times as much as we charged for a message from Dover to Ireland? It was astonishing, to people who had considered the question, that postal reforms had been carried in the teeth of Post Office opposition, and one reason he found in the fact that, though the Department was conducted by men of high honour and ability, it had not had a business man at its head since the time of Henry Fawcett—not a man who took into his councils the business men of the country. In France a consultative committee of business men were always sitting with the head of the Department to consider what was best for the general convenience, and he commended the appointment of such a Committee to the right hon. Gentleman, together with the establishment of a Government printing office. In Australia and in the United States post office and other printing was done in Government offices with saving of public money and many other advantages. There were many other matters worthy of attention, but he would content himself with saying that never was there more need for an Imperial

    391
    Postmaster-General who would consult with our Colonies and dependencies, and with foreign countries, upon the question of telegraph communication. The public scarcely realised the importance of this subject, and the opportunities there were for economy in expenditure. An amount of something like £4,000,000 sterling was spent in telegraphing in the year. To the Cape the expenditure was £500,000. In telegraphing to Australia we spent more than £1,000 a day, to India and the East almost the same sum, and to the United States £1,000,000 a year.
    *MR. ANNAN BRYCEsaid he was astonished that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down should have indulged in the criticisms he had on the actions of the Postmaster-General when he was perfectly well aware that that of which he complained did not depend on the action of his right hon. friend, but on the action of the Governments of the respective countries concerned. The public owed a great debt of gratitude to the Postmaster-General for what he had done in the way of reductions.
    *MR. HENNIKER HEATON: What reductions?
    *MR. ANNAN BRYCE: In the increase in the weights from ½ ounce to 1 ounce, and the reduction of the postage on weights above 1 ounce, which would make an enormous difference to the countries within the postal union. Any criticisms which he might have to make of the actions of the right hon. Gentleman inconnection with the Motion he proposed to move he made with great reluctance, because everyone knew the interest the right hon. Gentleman took in the details of his Department and would be convinced of his interest both in its financial condition and in the position of the staff. He had recommended himself to everybody in the House by the consideration with which he met the suggestions made to him, and there was no doubt that since he came into office there had been much better feeling throughout the country in regard to the Department. He himself had to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which, he had dealt with a
    392
    complaint in regard to a matter in his own constituency. The right hon. Gentleman's action in that case would meet with the gratitude of the staff in that constituency. He proposed to move to reduce the right hon. Gentleman's salary by £100 purely with the view of calling attention to a matter of great interest to Scotland. About two months ago a very influential and important deputation waited on the Postmaster-General with regard to underground telegraphic communication with Scotland, and the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman to that deputation was not altogether satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman showed great knowledge of the subject and great sympathy with the deputation, but explained that unhappily from his financial position he was not able to gratify to the extent he desired the wishes of the deputation with regard to the extension of underground telegraphs. It was well known that, owing to the overhead communications only, telegraphic communication in Scotland was liable to be interrupted during the winter, and last winter there was a very long and serious interruption. The Postmaster-General, although he was aware of this, was able to proceed only very slowly in the conversion of the present overhead into an underground system. The right hon. Gentleman said he would this year be able to complete only the communication to Edinburgh, and although the necessity of communication to Dundee and Aberdeen was very urgent indeed, owing to the slowness of the work it would be many years before they would see safe underground communication between those towns and the rest of the North of Scotland with the South. He begged to move.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A be reduced by £100."—(Mr. Annan Bryce).
    SIR F. BANBURYsaid the hon. Gentleman who had moved the reduction had no doubt good grounds from the point of view of Scotland obtaining underground in place of overhead communication, which it was evident the climate there rendered more

    393
    necessary than in England. At the same time he could not help feeling that the cost fell on the United Kingdom as a whole; therefore, he did not think the Postmaster-General could press on this reform quicker than he had. The right hon. Gentleman had made a very clear statement on the various subjects in which he had interested himself since he had been in office, but there were some subjects upon which he did not agree with him. The right hon. Gentleman had devoted a considerable portion of his speech to the question of the boys, and he would be inclined to vote for the Amendment because the statement in that respect was unsatisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman had said they were placed in a hard position, and that that was owing to the arrangements made with the War Office and the Admiralty that a certain number of time-expired soldiers and sailors had to be taken into the Post Office every year. The right hon. Gentleman had used a rather unfortunate phrase. He had spoken about the "intrusion" of soldiers and sailors into the Post Office.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he did not mean it in an offensive manner, but he quite admitted that it was perhaps not a proper expression to use.
    SIR F. BANBURYsaid he would not refer further to that point, and he was glad he had given the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of putting it right. The right hon. Gentleman had said that these boys were badly treated because, though their parents were told when they were engaged that the employment would be only of a temporary character, and though the House was told that these boys had signed an agreement in which they acknowledged they knew of this fact, yet, when the period arrived at which their employment was to cease they considered they had a grievance. He could not conceive how a business man for a moment could consider that when a man had signed an agreement, and carried out the terms of that agreement and completed his bargain, he had a grievance because he had to leave. The right hon. Gentleman had further
    394
    said he would take care that no further soldiers or sailors were employed in the Post Office. That surely was a very unfortunate conclusion to arrive at. He suggested that if the parents of these boys felt aggrieved that their boys were being discharged from the Post Office, the simplest thing for them to do would be to send them into the Army. Then when they had had a good training and were well disciplined, they could return to the Post Office. There could be no grievance then. If such an arrangement could be arrived at a great incentive would be given to recruiting Which was held to be highly desirable by many in the country. He would like to know what objection the right hon. Gentleman had to such a scheme, which he thought would meet a crying want of the men who had served their country, that they should have a claim to serve their country in a civil capacity. The right hon. Gentleman had also announced that the Post Office intended to alter the custom which had previously existed of accepting the lowest tender. The Post Office had a number of contractors on the list, and it would hardly be fair to ask them to send in their tenders and then not to accept the lowest. It was quite a different matter if they advertised for tenders, because people whom they knew nothing about might tender, but where they had a list of contractors, it was to be assumed that their names would not appear upon it unless it was known that they were satisfactory people. Where there was such a list of contractors, it seemed to him that it was only fair that the lowest tender should be accepted. He believed that principle was acted upon in all large departments and concerns in the country. The right hon. Gentleman, in answer to a Question of his, had stated that he estimated that he would get £450,000 increased revenue this year. The net increase of expenditure came to £621,000. The result, was, supposing the estimate of £450,000 increased revenue was realised, there would be a deficiency of £170,000. That was rather a serious fact. The right hon. Gentleman had already alluded to the want of elasticity in the Post Office revenue, which, it must not be forgotten, was one of the great items of the revenue producing Departments, and any decrease in the

    395
    revenue of the Post Office must mean an increase of taxation in some form; therefore it was most important that the net revenue of the Post Office should be kept up. The increase, as far as he could see, was almost entirely in the direction of wages. That was a very serious thing, when one bore in mind that there was, at the present moment, a Committee sitting on that subject. It seemed to him that it would have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had waited until the Committee had reported before he made any alteration in wages. In regard to superannuation and other non-effective charges, he saw that superannuation came to a very large amount, £555,000, and that it had increased very largely in the year, he thought by something like £50,000. On page 136 of the Estimates, he found that a letter carrier, aged twenty-three years, who had been six years in the Metropolitan Police, had been granted a pension. If the man had been six years in the police, it meant that he had joined the force when he was seventeen years of age. Why should this man receive a pension at the ago of twenty-three? Another man called Eden, aged forty-seven, had a pension of £104 10s. a year, "because of his inability to discharge efficiently the duties of his office." He would like to know what that meant. On the next page there was the record of a managed forty-eight, who received £206 a year pension, and there again the reason was inability to discharge efficiently the duties of his office.
    *THE CHAIRMANsaid the reduction which had been moved was on the right hon. Gentleman's salary, and it was open to discuss questions of policy, but not details which would really arise better on other items.
    SIR F. BANBURYsaid the right hon. Gentleman was in charge of the Vote and he desired to have particulars of these pensions, the conferring of which would be under his control, and if he received, a satisfactory answer he certainly did not want to vote for the reduction of the right hon. Gentleman's salary.
    *MR. SMEATONsaid he had received a complaint of rather a
    396
    serious kind from Grangemouth, an important seaport in his constituency, the third in importance, as an export centre, in Scotland and the link between Glasgow on the West and the Eastern export and import trade. It had only reached him that morning, together with a sheaf of other complaints. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman why it was that the Post Office trunk exchange had been removed from Grangemouth to Falkirk. At Grangemouth a very large volume of business was being done, and this removal of the trunk exchange had very seriously dislocated business. The merchants had suffered very great delays, and he wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman would consent to restore the original arrangement by which the trunk exchange was located at Grangemouth, and also to accelerate the telephone service between Grangemouth, which was the eastern seaport of Glasgow, and Glasgow itself which financed the trade. The report he had received that morning was that the Grangemouth traders would not be content unless either they received a direct trunk service between Grangemouth and Glasgow, or a sufficient number of wires were placed solely at the disposal of the Grangemouth and Glasgow community in regard to Grangemouth business. He would accentuate the claim they now made, by stating that the trade of Grangemouth, under the old arrangement, was very much facilitated. It was mainly with the Baltic States, Norway and Sweden, and was chiefly in timber and iron inwards and coal outward, and the result of the dislocation of the telephone arrangements had been seriously to impede that trade. There had been considerable difficulty recently in conducting the important business with the Baltic provinces and the inconveniences were being felt more and more daily. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give him an assurance that the trunk telephone exchange would be restored to Grangemouth, or at least that an equally rapid and efficient service would be provided at an early date. If he received that assurance he would not vote for the reduction of the salary of his right hon. friend, but otherwise he would be obliged to do so. Another subject to which he wished to call attention was the serious complaints of

    397
    traders that deliveries were irregular and not sufficiently numerous. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would pay attention to those complaints.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he cordially supported his hon. friend's proposal. He did not know that he could congratulate the Postmaster-General so cordially upon the support he was receiving from the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, who evidently thought that the chief object of Imperial revenue was that it should be spent in London or its immediate vicinity. Telegraphic communications in Scotland seemed to be looked upon with perfect indifference by the hon. Baronet, but they were, nevertheless, of some importance to the industrial communities on the East Coast of Scotland. The North of England towns had been well linked up with the underground telegraphic system, and it was a matter of congratulation that Glasgow had been joined up. The slowness of the means adopted to link up Edinburgh with the underground telegraphic system fully deserved the criticisms which had been made upon it, because the delay was intolerable. The climate of Scotland was a good deal worse than the climate of England in regard to the subject they were discussing. It was the snow falling in a certain condition which clung to the wires and broke them down, and Scotland had to suffer in that way. From the point of view of the business community this matter was urgent. It was not only Edinburgh but the great commercial districts of Fife, Dundee, and Aberdeen which were concerned, because they were all cut off sometimes for days from the rest of the world by the breaking down of telegraphic communication. It was always possible for England and Ireland to get a million or so for anything of importance, and it was not right that Scotland should be starved in this way year after year. The limit of their patience had now been reached on this matter. They were not urging a retrograde policy, and he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would bring the telegraphic communications with Scotland up to the same level as the rest of the work over which he presided.
    SIR GILBERT PARKERhoped it was not too late to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon the improvement she had made in the means of communication between this country and Canada in regard to the postal service. He felt that the right hon. Gentleman deserved the greatest credit in this matter, because previous Postmasters-General had always adopted an adamantine attitude towards the efforts other Members and himself had made to reduce the postage rate to Canada, the excuse being that it would involve an immense loss to the Postal Department. He was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman state that he did not think there would be any great loss on account of this concession. He strongly held that the Postal Department ought not to be considered the milch cow that it was; the amount of money paid over to the Chancellor of the Exchequer was out of all reason. The reason they had not had proper reforms in the past except at the point of the bayonet was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer demanded every year £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 from the Department. His hon. friend had spoken of the typists employed at 18s. a week in the General Post Office. Three years ago the hon. Member for Canterbury and others on both sides of the House urged that such a salary was absolutely inadequate. Anyone who knew what it cost to live in London knew that 18s. a week would not supply any girl with a decent living. She must live with her parents or be a burden upon her relatives, and she had to face actual starvation or temptations to something much worse. The right hon. Gentleman handed over £4,000,000 a year of profits to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and yet he declined to give these typists an increase in their wages.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I do not decline.
    SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he was glad to hear that statement from the right hon. Gentleman, because they had seen for a long time urging that the Postmaster-General should give better wages to the female workers. The

    399
    difference between the male and the female workers in regard to wages was very great. It had been urged by the hon. Member for Canterbury that the only way to get a proper and efficient service and proper pay well balanced was not by the efforts of trade unions and associations, but by the boards which he had suggested. Labour Members knew that, because whilst they were able by their unions to gain advantages for one particular section of post office employees they did not gain them for another section. The difficulties attaching to this matter of salaries was one that should not be borne by the Postmaster-General. The pressure that used to be brought upon Members of the House had not been so much exercised since the attempt had been made to bring the associations into closer relation with the Department itself, but in the past attempts at pressure had been made which practically amounted to blackmail, and they had made some hon. Members who had supported the cause of the employees extremely angry. Whilst such Members had voted for all just claims they had opposed and resented the attempts made to compel them to intervene in regard to these matters. He honestly thought we should never have a really first-class postal service with all the improvements due to them until Pariament had reduced the amount which the Department paid over to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and had relieved the Postmaster-General of the duty of acting as the final judge and arbiter in the case of salaries. When that had been done they would arrive at a condition of things which would make the Post Office the best Department in the world. Our police and postal service was universally acknowledged to be excellent. In every other respect we were in the van of progress and the Postal Department should not lag behind. In regard to the arrangement made with the trade association, difficulties would arise, because they would bring pressure to bear in certain directions to achieve certain reforms only; that would cause rivalry and jealousy in other directions and they would never have any uniform system. The system of dealing with salaries ought to be kept uniform by a board free from all political considera-
    400
    tions. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that they had 200,000 employees in the Post Office and 150,000 of them were critics. He supposed the other 50,000 were ladies, and he asked whether the reason the wages of female employees were not raised was that they did not criticise. With regard to the telephone service he had to pay £17 10s. a year and £110s. deposit, together with an extra charge of 6d. on his messages for a private telephone. That was out of all proportion to the proper expenditure. The Postmaster-General would say that he could not alter it because it would be impossible to make the telephone service pay. At the beginning of a great service there must be a certain amount of loss. The service had first to be built up before the return could be expected from it which they ought to get. If a certain amount of the money which was given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer were devoted for the time being to the relief of the telephone service he believed the Postmaster-General would get a larger revenue in the end. While the Department was one of which the country might well be proud, it was a Department in which reforms were as necessary now as when his hon. friend the Member for Canterbury commenced his campaign twenty years ago. If the Postmaster - General would throw off the shackles of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this case, and it could be done—[An Hon. MEMBER: What about about old-age pensions?] If they were depending on this Department for old-age pensions they might get them, but the wages of the people they wished to benefit would not increase in proportion to the cost of living in the country.
    MR. SEDDONsaid he did not rise as a critic of the right hon. Gentleman, but to pay him a personal tribute for the public spirit which he had brought into his great Department. Last year he raised the question of the wages paid to the mail cart drivers, and he was glad to learn that the Postmaster-General had given his attention to it. In some directions he had considerably increased the wages and improved the conditions of the drivers. He wished, if possible, to accelerate the speed and widen the field of the

    401
    right hon. Gentleman's activity. It was perfectly true that many of the mail drivers in this country were paid scandalous wages. He would personally wish that the Post Office would undertake its own mail van work, and not give it to private contractors, but pending that time, which he hoped was not far distant, he would ask the Postmaster-General whether it was possible for him to make inquiry in the provinces on the lines which he had so successfully followed in the Metropolitan area, in order to find out the wages paid to the mail drivers. He had had several cases brought to his own knowledge where the hours were intolerably long and the wages scandalous, something like 2¼d. per hour. That was the pay of some of the drivers who had to stand all the inclement weather. Heasked whether the Postmaster-General could secure a return of the wages and conditions of the men engaged in the mail van service. He was glad to find himself in opposition to the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. He was beginning to think that it was a virtue to be opposed to anything which the hon. Baronet supported. The hon. Baronet had stated in the course of his remarks that the revenue of the country depended to some extent on the income and the profits of the Post Office. He agreed. But the hon. Baronet went on to say that the Postmaster-General must exercise great care, because he had found that an increase of wages in one direction had arisen owing to an increase in another. He himself believed that that increase had been warranted. It had been granted by the Postmaster-General to some extent to remove a grievance in the Department over which he presided. He would like to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to another question which might mean another outlay which would approximate more to justice than the present conditions. In Liverpool, in connection with the telegraph office, he was informed on very good authority that there were a large number of temporary clerks employed alongside a number of permanent clerks. There was also a considerable amount of overtime worked by those permanently engaged. Surely by a little arrangement those who were temporarily em-
    402
    ployed might, at least in some cases, be put on the permanent staff by removing the overtime, and thus avoiding the insecurity of those who were not now on the permanent staff. In the labour world there was nothing more depressing than the feeling of uncertainty, and many of these temporary clerks did not know the length of time they would be occupied in the postal service. He was told that it figured out at about eight months in the year, and that the other four months were a period of uncertainty. It was reasonable to suppose that the four months might mean a period of privation as well. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to exercise his good offices in making an inquiry into this question at Liverpool, so that some of the temporary clerks might be put on the permanent staff. He was glad that his hon. friend had raised the question of the female typists. He did not think there was any man who would support sweating in connection with female labour, and especially the miserable wage paid to the typists. It was impossible for a female to live in London, Liverpool, or other large centre on 18s. a week. She might be living at home, and in that case 18s. contributed to the family exchequer would help the family to live somewhat decently; but if she was compelled, as she sometimes was, under the Post Office conditions, to remove to another office, she might be taken from the home circle to live in London. It was impossible to live on 18s. a week in any of the large cities, and he was sure that the Postmaster-General would be doing a real public service if he gave these females a standard living wage, and reduced the disproportion as regarded pay between males and females. There was not a very great difference in the work they did, and that being so, he thought the Postmaster-General in the interest of justice should bring the salaries into some more even relationship than existed at the present time.
    MR. CROMBIEsaid the question of providing underground wires in Scotland was a very serious one. He reminded the Committee that at the end of last year there was a severe snowstorm in the North of Scotland, and

    403
    that for three days owing to the breakdown of the telegraph wires the city of Aberdeen was shut off from the rest of the world. That was a great calamity. He did not say that it was a calamity for Aberdeen to be shutoff from the rest of the world, but it was a serious calamity for the rest of the world to be shut off from Aberdeen. Aberdeen was the second largest centre of the fishing industry in the Kingdom, and that industry was to a large extent dependent on the telegraph. The city was also an important telegraphic centre. It might be said that such a snowstorm would not occur again. He was not sure about that. He believed that the weather went in cycles. It did so in the time of Pharaoh and it might do so again. There might be a cycle of bad winters, and it was very important that something should be done to prevent the interruption of telegraphic communication. The Postmaster-General had been exceedingly kind to Aberdeen. He acknowledged that frankly. The right hon. Gentleman went down there recently and opened a new post office. He believed that Aberdeen intended to get something out of him when he was there, but somehow or other that had fallen through. Whether that was due to the Postmaster-General's charm of manner or to the Highland hospitality with which he was welcomed and the desire not to take advantage of a guest he could not say, but the right hon. Gentleman got away and nothing had been done. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman would plead impecuniosity. That was always the plea of Ministers on these occasions. If he was going to extend the underground wires to Edinburgh, why could he not leave out the connection and begin at Aberdeen, extending the wire southwards? The part of Scotland most likely to be disturbed by storms was the northern part between Aberdeen and Dundee or Edinburgh. He urged that if more money could not be got to extend the lines more rapidly from the south, the work should be done from the north.
    *MR. WILKIEthanked the Postmaster-General for his action in meeting the representatives of the workers' organisations. He did not share the views which had been expressed in some quarters as to the trouble which
    404
    the right hon. Gentleman would get into in future by simply following the example of most large employers of labour. The fact that the employees knew that they could approach the right hon. Gentleman would tend to do away with a considerable number of complaints. The treatment of the boys who entered the Post Office service had been a great grievance for a considerable time. He did not think the present method was satisfactory. There seemed to be a desire to force the lads into the Army. If the Army was to be recruited it would not be done by this method. These lads were above the average in education, and he thought that other methods should be adopted to secure recruits. As to the suggestion that a ''Public Service Board" should be instituted, that would require to be very carefully considered. It was a very large question which would affect the civil servants from the highest to the lowest grade; and it might cut in a way which was not anticipated by the hon. Members who had made it. There was a grievance in regard to the telegraph employees in Dundee; it was an entirely local grievance, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to meat the wishes of the telegraphists in that city. There was another matter which he wished to bring before the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the postal rates charged for periodicals, which affected particularly the industrial class. These rates were much higher than those charged for society journals and other papers of a so-called higher class, and certainly for periodicals which were of much greater weight and bulk. He did not know whether that was according to law or not; but, if it was, a small Bill should be introduced to remedy that grievance. Then there was the question affecting his constituency in connection with the underground telegraph wires. A deputation had recently waited on the Postmaster-General. They complained that while the right hon. Gentleman had complied with the demands of Glasgow and Edinburgh he had left such important cities as Dundee and Aberdeen and the whole of the North of Scotland out of account. The deputation had received no satisfaction. Since then he had visited Dundee

    405
    in reference to the matter, and had had interviews with the representatives of the public and the chamber of commerce and many business men in the city, who were very greatly dissatisfied with the reply which the Postmaster-General had given to the deputation. They thought that the extension of the underground wire to Dundee and the North might be greatly accelerated. In his reply to the deputation, the Postmaster-General stated that a storm such as that which had broken all communication with the North in January last did not often occur. If the right hon. Gentleman could guarantee that such another storm would not occur until he had these lines underground, they would not press him; but the right hon. Gentleman could not give that guarantee, therefore he thought that the business communities of Dundee and Aberdeen should be served at once by underground telegraphic lines so that the whole business of the east coast of Scotland should not be interrupted.
    *MR. WILESbelieved there were from 8,000 to 10,000 men who had served in the Army or Navy who now had an engagement in the postal service. He thought that when these men were taken into the Post Office service they should be allowed to count for pension their seven years service in the Army or Navy. Let them take the case of a young man eighteen years of age—
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANpointed out that the question of pensions was a matter of legislation and could not be discussed under this Vote.
    *MR. O'GRADYsaid he desired to draw the attention of the Postmaster - General to three points, namely, the wages of the Post Office employees, the creation of a privileged class of workmen at Mount Pleasant, London, and the question of the wages of the mail drivers. The minimum wage or letter carries in London was only 20s. per week and rose only to 34s. after long service, so that the conditions of employment did not compare favourably with those in other spheres of industry. It must be remembered that
    406
    the great bulk of those men were married, and even when they attained to 34s. a week that was hardly enough to keep a man and his family. Last year he had raised the question in respect to the joinery department at Mount Pleasant. The conditions there were such that no trade unionist could apply for work at all unless he cared to drop out of his union. They were just as much entitled to be paid the same rates for employment under the State as those paid to the privileged classes in this Department, and until the conditions of employment were altered there would be great discontent. As to the case of the mail van drivers the hon. Baronet the junior Member for the City had said that on every occasion the lowest tender for the contract should be accepted, but he submitted that that led to sweating. He did not know of any men in private employ who were so badly paid as the mail van drivers, and he supposed that that was because the Post Office Department did accept the lowest tender. The best way would be for the Post Office themselves to undertake the work of the carriage of the mails from the post office to the railway stations another districts and not by means of contractors. Mention had been made of the creation of a board in Australia to consider all these questions of wages. That Civil Service Board in Australia had worked very beneficially for the employees as well as for the Government. Australia, however, was a new country and this was an old country, and the only means the workers had to bring pressure to get justice for themselves was through the trade unions, and the Postmaster-General had met them in the, readiest manner and allowed them to state their case directly through their representatives. Before the question of a Civil Service Board to consider wages was adopted, he would prefer that some longer period of trial should be given the new conditions.
    *MR. STAVELEY-HILLcalled attention to the condition of the post office at Old Hill, South Staffordshire, and to the method of inspection of post offices generally, the right hon. Gentleman had informed him that he had had this post office inspected

    407
    having reference to the complaints which had reached him as to the inadequate accommodation it afforded for such a large district. No doubt the inspection had taken place, but he wanted to know the views of the inspector. He was in this post office last Saturday and saw how inadequate the accommodation was, as more than four fully grown people could not stand at the counter at one time. It was true that there were two sub-post offices, but they were such a distance from the main office as to be of very little use. There was no desire on the part of those who had petitioned the Postmaster-General to oust the present postmaster, but they asked that there should be a reconstruction of the building. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would consent to receive a deputation of the inhabitants on the subject.
    *MR. MORTONsaid it was perhaps unfortunate that so many subjects should be brought forward on the question of the reduction of the Postmaster-General's salary. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would not take it as a reflection upon himself as it was merely a way of raising those questions. The question of mail drivers had been before them for twenty years, and the right hon. Gentleman said he was not responsible as the work was done under contracts. They had all heard of these contracts and of conditions as to fair wages to the men. Surely the Postmaster-General could see that these conditions were put in the contracts for carrying the mails. He quite agreed with the hon. Member who had spoken previously that the Post Office business ought not to be simply for money making. It ought to be carried on in the interests of the trade and of the social affairs of the United Kingdom. He hoped the Postmaster-General would be able to do something in the direction of a universal penny post, and pointed out that, as far as they knew, the Imperial penny post had not been a loss at all. The present arrangements were perfectly ridiculous. One could send a letter to India and Australia and further still for 1d., but to send one across the Channel from Dover to Calais cost2½d. One could send a lette across the United States to British
    408
    Columbia for 1d., but if it was stopped on the way, say at New York, it cost 2½d. In reforming such anomalies as that he knew they would have no trouble with the Postmaster-General if it were not for the permanent officials who hampered and controlled him. ["Oh."] Well, the Duke of Norfolk told the country that his difficulty in carrying out any reform was the power of the permanent officials, and if the present Postmaster-General did better than his predecessors they would be grateful indeed. The difficulty was to make these permanent officials recognise any merit outside their offices and outside themselves. Every reform had been driven into the Department from outside. They opposed in the first instance Rowland Hill's penny postage. He believed the permanent officials hated like poison his hon. friend the Member for Canterbury, but if the Postmaster-General had his own way he thought he would carry out what that hon. Member advocated. The City had recognised the services of his hon. friend by giving him its freedom in the usual gold box, and it was, after all, the City which benefited more by cheap and efficient postal facilities than any other part of the United Kingdom. He hoped the Postmaster-General would overcome the Chancellor of the Exchequer and would not be "bossed" by his permanent officials. The more the right hon. Gentleman depended upon his own ability and knowledge the better it would be for the country in regard to the postal service. If the Postmaster-General alone were concerned he did not think it would be long before we had universal penny postage. He wished to join with his colleagues in impressing upon the Postmaster-General the necessity in regard to the service with Scotland of having the wires placed underground. He supposed he would be told that the right hon. Gentleman had not got the money, but with a post office revenue of £2,405,000 from Scotland and an expenditure of £1,981,000, which showed a profit of between £400,000 and £500,000 per annum, he had no business to use that profit elsewhere until he had put the Scottish telegraph, post, and telephone service in a proper efficient condition. It was no use for the Postmaster-General to say he could not

    409
    control the weather. It was his business to control it, and that was the reason why the reduction was moved in his salary. He trusted that the application made on behalf of Scotland would not be in vain. His concern was with a district two or three hundred miles further north, where the weather was more stormy, and his reason for having these wires in a proper and safe condition was stronger even than that of others who had spoken. His constituents were 700 miles away and could not come to the House and watch their proceedings; they were dependent on the telegraph to take them the news, and therefore he trusted that not a moment would be lost in putting these matters right. He noticed in the Estimates that about £1,000 a year was spent on telegraph business in regard to race meetings, and he asked why the right hon. Gentleman was spending money on such a vice as racing, the only respectable thing about which was the horse. He further complained that the right hon. Gentleman had not carried out the promises made last year with regard to giving larger facilities, both postal and telegraph, in country districts. With regard to Sutherlandshire, the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech last year made a full statement about telegraphs and telephones and said he would give larger facilities, and that under ordinary circumstances the Postmaster - General should guarantee two-thirds of the annual cost. This telegraphic communication was very important to a place like Sutherlandshire, which had to depend on the telegraph for its markets. Last year he sent in a petition on behalf of the people living at Elphin asking for a telegraph service. The right hon. Gentleman promised to put up a wire and conduct the service if the people of the district guaranteed so much per annum, but refused himself to go on the guarantee promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer although the Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised that the Postmaster-General should guarantee two-thirds of the loss (if any). With regard to the postal delivery, there were several places in Sutherlandshire which had only one delivery a week, and though the postmaster-General had made considerable improvement in the postal facilities (for which he thanked him) by giving, in some cases, two deliveries a week, having regard
    410
    to the promise that there should be a delivery at least three times a week, he contended the right hon. Gentleman had not gone far enough. In one particular case a most extraordinary thing had happened. Up to a few weeks ago the people of a certain district had had a delivery three times a week, and they had now been knocked down to a delivery on the Saturday only. So that the promises of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been in that case reversed. That was a matter he would send in to the Postmaster-General to inquire into. He did not apologise for occupying the time of the Committee; it was the duty of Members of the House of Commons, before they granted supply, to ventilate their grievances and secure reforms. He reminded the Postmaster-General that fourteen months ago the Prime Minister promised to do everything he could to help the people to improve their country. The Prime Minister had on that occasion said that we ought "to colonise our own country." He (Mr. Morton) had forgotten more about colonisation than many hon. Gentlemen ever knew; and he knew that the Canadian and United States Governments considered it their first duty when "colonising" to attend to postal facilities, telegraphs, and telephones. On one occasion when he was in a new settlement in America so anxious were the Canadian Govern-to assure the delivery of mails that they sent them on the back of an Indian, who walked into the settlement on snow shoes. He thought the right hon. Gentleman ought to do everything in his power to carry out the promise of the Prime Minister to help the people to improve their own country and trade. While thanking the Postmaster-General for past favours, he hoped he would attend in the future to the important matters he had mentioned.
    COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid he regarded the permanent officials as a hard-working body, who paid close attention to their business, and for regularity and everything else they were unequalled by any other body of public servants; the Postmaster-General would be absolutely useless and incapable without the assistance of the permanent officials, who were acquainted with the work, and it was to them that the Postmaster-General, when

    411
    he was placed in office, must naturally look. He was always sorry to hear the permanent officials found fault with. They might think, at times, that they were hide-bound and stuck to red-tape, but he did not think for a moment that there over entered their heads any thought save that which they believed to be entirely for the public good in the way of greater facilities. When he came into the House he was astonished to see his hon. friend the Member for the City of London on his legs and addressing the House, but he found him for once employed on an excellent object, though he confessed he viewed with alarm the prospect he described as to the employment of old soldiers, and he was sure he might venture to say a few words in their behalf. The right hon. Gentleman could not in fact abrogate the arrangement made as to the employment of old soldiers, but he would not increase their number owing to the fact that the parents of the boys thought that they laboured under a grievance. He was very sorry indeed to hear that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to increase the number of Reservists employed, because it had always been one of the difficulties in the service that men leaving it were not able to find employment, and he thought that a man who had served his country was entitled to greater consideration at the hands of the community than those who had not done so. He had no wish to labour the point, but he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would see that in some people's minds at all events the provision of employment for men who had deserved well of their country was a very serious question. Only men who had excellent characters were eligible for this employment, and it was hard that they should have so limited a door slammed in their face. With regard to the female typists in the Post Office, he did not believe that it was possible for a girl in that position to live in London on less than £1 a week, and he thought they should at least be on the watch in her behalf. Had anything been done in respect of the dining arrangements or getting food, except at their own expense or outside of the office? If no arrangements had been made, he thought some ought to be made. He did not think that these girls ever got their meals properly or comfortably.
    412
    They went out and got an indigestible bun and a glass of milk, not in the least wholesome for them, and they had no time to get their proper food. He trusted that, if it was not already the case, the Postmaster-General would be able to make such arrangements that they could get their food in the office, or in some room adjacent to the office—decent food, well cooked, and with an opportunity to eat it so that their health would not be affected. As regarded the question of the mail drivers, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way, in the interests of man and horse, to supplying motor vans in the place of horse vans where practicable and possible. Another point to which he wished to call attention was the question of change given over the counter to the public. The point was whether, if a five-pound note was tendered at the post office, change could be obtained.
    MR. SIDNEY BUXTON: I am inquiring into that.
    COLONEL LOCK WOODsaid he would not in that case press the matter further, but he would be glad of a reply about the boy messenger service.
    MR. SIDNEY BUXTON: That is all arranged.
    COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid the principal question he had raised was as to the employment of old soldiers and he hoped it would be seriously considered by the right hon. Gentleman.
    MR. MACLEANsaid he would like to join in the commendation of the right hon. Gentleman's policy with regard to the employees in the Post Office service. They found, as a result of it, that instead of a state of agitation, they had now something approaching content. With regard to one or two remarks which had been made as to serving the country, he pointed out that there were men who served it as efficiently and faithfully outside the ranks as did those who were in the service; and it was not fair that, where men had been employed for a great number of years in the Post Office, they should not have, rightly and properly, the promotion which was due to them. He wished to draw attention to the inefficient state of the post office in

    413
    High Street, Bath. A great amount of injury and inconvenience was caused owing to the lack of public accommodation. High Street was right in the centre of the city, and Bath was constantly full of visitors from all parts of the country and many parts of the world, who wished to send telegrams, or money, or postal letters to great distances. They had to go to a sort of subterranean office which was off the High Street, and great inconvenience was experienced. The matter was one of great importance to the city, and representations had been made over and over again by the chamber of commerce and by the city corporation, expressing the earnest hope that the question would have the consideration which it really needed. One objection with which they were met was that there was not sufficient business done to justify an extension of facilities. He suggested, with all respect to the permanent officials who very largely controlled these matters, that they ought to look at them in a business-like way. A business man, when dealing with a subject of this kind, knew perfectly well that if he wanted an extension of business he ought to extend his promises. He was quite certain that if the authorities properly considered the urgent prayer of the petitions which had been sent up from time to time by the representative bodies of the city with regard to this matter the great public inconvenience complained of would be very speedily remedied.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON,who was to indistinctly heard, was understood say that the hon. Member for Canterbury, as well as the hon. Member for Sutherland, had attacked the permanent officials of the Post Office with some virulence. It had been his honour and pleasure to work with the permanent officials at the Post Office for some time. He thought our public service was the highest in the civilised world, and there were no men in that service who were more anxious to do right than the permanent officials of the Post Office. It was their duty, when suggestions were made, either from outside or from the Postmaster-General, to criticise those proposals in order that it might be soon whether they would hold water. He might say frankly that some of his own proposals might have been criticised in the
    414
    initial stages, but he had welcomed that criticism. If, however, he had made up his mind to do a particular thing, though the officials might not agree with it, no one could give him greater assistance than they did in making it easy for him to carry his plan out. That was, he thought, the greatest compliment to them. A permanent official ought first to criticise, and then, having criticised, to do his best to make the proposal a workable one for the benefit of the public. He had heard with great regret the words of the Members for Canterbury and Sutherlandshire. The hon. Member for Canterbury had compared our Post Office with that of France, which, it was said, always had a business man in connection with it, or at the head of it. All he could say was that he was glad he lived in a country—even if there was no business man in the Post Office—where they had rejoiced in penny postage for sixty-six years, whereas it was only introduced in France last year.
    *MR. HENNIKER HEATONsaid France had a penny post, but it was raised to pay the expenses of the War. He had the highest opinion of the permanent officials and would not exchange them for any body of civil servants in the world. It was of the head of the Department in France that the had spoken.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that in reference to female typists, as a matter of fact, they were civil servants, and in that sense he had no control over them. There appeared to have been some mistake in regard to their rate of pay. It was true that these typists were paid 18s. a week during the first year of their i service, but they were working upon a scale under which their wages rose to 19s. the next year, and an increase of 2s. a week every succeeding year until their wages reached 25s., and he thought hon. Members would agree with him that that was a very different thing from 18s. per week. He did make representations to the Treasury on receipt of a memorial from these typists, because it seemed to him that their case ought to be considered in order to ascertain whether their wages were or were not adequate. With regard to postal improvements, some hon. Members had gone so far as to say that the whole of the profits on the postal system ought to be spent upon improvements. He was

    415
    bound to say that he did not agree with that view. The Post Office had always exercised a double function from the point of view of the revenue: (1) to add something to the Exchequer in relief of taxation elsewhere; and (2) to provide a certain amount to be spent every year in postal improvements. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had allowed a very liberal sum for various improvements by granting £350,000 a year extra out of the revenue of the Post Office, and he considered that that was a very substantial contribution to postal reform. [An Hon. MEMBER: It ought to be double.] The hon. Member who made that interruption could not be aware of the relations of the Treasury in regard to all the great spending departments. They were spending quite enough already, and if they had not the watch-dog of the Treasury to guard their expenditure he did not know what would happen. The hon. Member for Gravesend had alluded to his own private telephone, but it was a very long wire, and that was why he had to pay an additional sum. He had settled the question of London carmen, and any instances where the carmen were not receiving suitable wages and whose hours were unduly long would certainly be inquired into.
    MR. MORTONasked if it was provided in the contract that they should be paid a fair rate of wages?
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONreplied that every contract contained a fair wages clause giving the right of inspection and general inquiry into the rate of wages.
    MR. MORTON: Then they are breaking the contract if they are not paying fair wages?
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Yes. The difficulty was that whilst they had a fair wages clause, there was no recognised rate of fair wages. With regard to the telephone system referred to by the hon. Member for Stirlingshire, he had had some communication with the National Telephone Company on the subject, and he would see what could be done to improve the service. The increases which had been referred to by the hon. Member for the City of London were only normal increases in the pay of Post Office servants according to the
    416
    scale. With regard to the messengers, he felt that it was a real hardship that the boy messengers should come into the service anticipating permanent employment and then have to give up their service. In regard to the clothing contract, complaint had been made that he had not accepted the lowest tender in every case. Hon. Members must be aware that in the clothing trade there was a great deal of sweating, and if the lowest tender was always accepted the result would be that the employees would not receive decent wages. Another reason why he had not accepted the lowest tender in every case was that he bad endeavoured to spread the tenders over a considerable number of contractors so that he might obtain some experience as to who were good and who were bad employers. The hon. Member for Sutherlandshire had asked him a question about underground telegraphic wires, but he wished to point out that he had endeavoured to meet the various suggestions he had made. In regard to the extension of telegraph lines in sparsely populated districts such as Sutherlandshire, there must be some discrimination where the capital outlay was out of all proportion to the general advantages of the locality. He entirely appreciated the importance of the matter to which his hon. friend from Scotland had drawn his attention. It was a very serious thing that a town of the size and importance of Aberdeen should be practically cut off from telegraphic communication for two or three days through a snowstorm. The only gratification he felt about the matter was that when the deputators came to see him about it, they admitted that the snowstorm in question was the most severe one for fifty years. He agreed with the hon. Member for Kincardineshire that it was an immense loss to the rest of the United Kingdom to have Aberdeen cut off for two or three days, but if it only happened once in fifty years they would perhaps be able to bear it with equanimity. Some hon. Members had gone further and suggested that he ought to control the weather in Scotland. Since he had been at the Post Office he had had a considerable number of duties imposed upon him, but he confessed that it was rather beyond his power to control the weather in Scotland, and he hoped, if he was unable to do it, he would not be

    417
    blamed. He found that in the administration of the Post Office he often got praise for things for which he deserved none and got blamed for things for which he was not to blame. He read the other day, for instance, that last Christmas the Christmas parcels were much better packed, and that it was due to the new Postmaster-General. That was undue praise. It would be undue blame to blame him for not controlling the weather in Scotland.
    MR. MORTON: I did not suggest that. I suggested that by the expenditure of a sum of money you could control the weather by putting the wires underground.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he felt the importance of the matter, but he wanted to point out two or three considerations which he hoped would be appreciated, because they largely affected the question and his power of dealing with it. The system of putting telegraph wires underground was a comparatively now one. It was only in the last few years that they had discovered the paper insulator and that it had been really effective. When it was first done by gutta percha it was ineffective. This meant that there had been delay in carrying out the underground wiring. Only a certain amount of the work could be carried out each year, in the first place because of the expense, and, secondly, because of the difficulty of supervision. Already something like £1,000,000 had been spent, and by the end of this year £1,250,000 would have been spent in underground wires towards the completion of those parts, the trunk and main wires, which were already in hand. When they were completed they would be able to turn their attention to other quarters of the country. It was a costly thing, however, to put in underground wires, and it was not merely a question of the initial cost. A considerable outlay was involved in breakages which occurred from time to time, and the return nothing like covered the interest on the expenditure. Still, it was a thing that ought to be done as a national matter and done as rapidly as possible. What should be done was first to have a complete trunk line from London to Glasgow, and then from it to
    418
    have spread out spurs in various directions. In the first place they wanted a trunk line down to the south west and south in order to catch the cable connections wish the Continent, with India, with the East, and with America, and prevent storms breaking the communications. His hon. friend the Member for Aberdeen had said that it would be a serious thing that Dundee, which was interested in the jute trade, should not be able to communicate with India. That was the strongest argument in favour of completing the underground wires to the south-west, where the Indian cable started, before laying them to Dundee itself. Similar storms occurred in South Wales, and, if there were no underground wires in the south-west, not only Dundee but every other part of the country might be in the position of having their communication with India cut off for an appreciable time, whereas, under existing conditions, Dundee had not been cut off from communication with India. He thought his hon. friends from Scotland were too much inclined to deal with the matter as a local question. It was really not a local question at all. It was far more important to the jute industry of Dundee than to the Devonshire labourers that the underground wires should be extended first to the south-west. The first thing to be done was to bring the underground communication in connection with the cables in various parts of the country, and that was what they had in hand at present. They had in hand a cable to Newcastle, and it was hoped, if not to complete it, at any rate nearly to complete the underground cable from Edinburgh to Glasgow. He was asked by one hon. friend why they did not begin at the Edinburgh end and by another why they did not begin at the Aberdeen end. It was difficult from these suggestions to find out which end to begin first. One reason why they would not be able to complete the underground wire between Edinburgh and Glasgow this year was that the Edinburgh Corporation had been very obstructive in regard to way-leaves. They had very much delayed the work by refusing them liberty to go in the direction they wanted. He hoped they would be lessobdurate in future. It was a case of a locality urging extension on the one hand and refusing facilities on the other. He was afraid that all he could say was that he fully appreciated

    419
    the importance of the particular proposals that had been made. They had certain schemes in hand and they had a certain amount of money, £250,000 this year, in order to carry them out. When these schemes were completed, other extensions would be proceeded with. He would point out, however, that he had had representations made to him, not only from Dundee and Aberdeen, but from other places, including Hull and Newcastle. Hull and Newcastle together had double the trade of Dundee and Aberdeen. It was a reason for giving considerable weight to their representations. There was one thing to which he did not think sufficient importance had been attached. His hon. friend had dwelt with particular persistency on a particular snowstorm in the north, and pointed out that the wires were broken down in consequence; but his information was that what was even worse than that was a cyclone in the south when trees were blown down. He did not think, therefore, that they could dwell too much on the question of the weather, seeing that the wind storms in the south were quite as serious as the snowstorms in the north. He was afraid he could not promise any more than he said to the deputation, that Dundee and Aberdeen should receive full consideration when the other lines were completed. He hoped his hon. friends would feel that he had endeavoured to explain the matter as fully as he could; but if they still persisted in reducing his salary he would have to grin and bear it.
    MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid he had been asked to bring forward the question of newspaper postage. He did not think the Committee realised how anomalous and contradictory the position was at the present moment. He might sum it up by saying that journals which were pounds in weight, dear in price, and small in circulation, could be posted for a halfpenny, while many other journals, a tenth of the weight and size, were charged a penny. Personally he attached no blame to the Post Office in this matter. He would not have mentioned it but for the fact that urgent representations had been made to him from influential quarters. He would illustrate the present state of the law. Papers like the Graphic and the Illus-
    420
    trated London News which cost sixpence could be posted for a halfpenny, whereas the postage of the People's Friend, a sheet an eighth or a tenth of the weight of the Field or any of the big sixpenny weeklies was a penny. There were other journals with which he was connected which were subject to the same grievance. It appeared to him an extremely ridiculous position that a heavy and dear journal going to wealthy people should be charged only a halfpenny postage, while a small journal which was read by poor people was charged a penny postage. He had endeavoured to get at the principle underlying the postal charges in regard to this matter, but it was rather hard to discover. He understood that a certain proportion of what was called news matter must appear in the paper to entitle it to the halfpenny rate; but it was rather difficult to know what the definition of news was, or what news was contained in some of the big weeklies. Those who, like himself, were connected with some journals were extremely grateful for the editorial assistance they got from the Post Office. Let the Committee take the case of the Queen. It was a most admirable journal; it contained a description of the toilets of the ladies, the latest fashions, the names of those presented at Court, and the latest elegancies in chiffons from Paris—highly interesting he was sure to ladies, and also to the gentlemen who were proud of having fashionable ladies for their wives. He did not belong to either class, and he was unable to see what news the Queen contained. Then there were the Lady's Pictorial and the Lady. Those papers were fashionable papers, full of fashionable intelligence, and were taken by fashionable people. But if they took Tit-Bits and papers of the like kind he did not see why they should not be regarded as having news, and should be charged a penny instead of a halfpenny postage. But that was not the end of the contradictory rules of the Post Office, for some of those heavy and costly papers were allowed to have advertising insets. He maintained that the distinction made by the Post Office between papers and periodicals was founded on no sane or sound principle which could be defended. He had been asked to bring in a Bill on the subject. After the experience he had had in piloting

    421
    the Musical Copyright Bill through the House, he had made a vow that never again would he embark on a career as a legislator. He supposed, however, that legislators were like lovers, entitled to break their vows occasionally, and he was quite ready to start legislation again, but on one condition, viz., that the Government should put on the Committee all its forces. By a combination of that kind he believed that they might reach the desired eirenicon. He asked his right hon. friend the Postmaster-General as to whether they might have his assistance in this regard.
    *MR. MCCRAEsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had hardly been fair to the Corporation of Edinburgh. So far as he understood, the complaint had really assumed very small proportions; but he thought that the Post Office was more to blame than the Corporation of Edinburgh. The point of difference was as do whether the concrete pavement in Princes Street should be torn up or the line carried a few hundred yards further round by a side street. He would urge the claim made by hon. Members for constituencies further north than Edinburgh, in regard to the extension of the underground telegraph system to Dundee and Aberdeen. He had the honour to introduce the deputation which waited upon the Postmaster-General in regard to this matter. They were charmed by the right hon. Gentleman's courtesy and sympathy, and the promises he had given them. The right hon. Gentleman indicated that it might be possible to expedite he work out of savings; but they were anxious to have a more definite statement to-day from the right hon. Gentleman than he had hitherto given as to the immediate necessity of the execution of the extension of the underground telegraph system, at least, to Aberdeen. It had been said that the recent storm which caused so much destruction and interrupted business so greatly, was greater than any which had occurred for fifty years. But storms were of very frequent occurrence along the East coast of Scotland, and caused great dislocation of business by the breaking down of overhead telegraph wires. He was sure that his right hon. friend did not minimise the necessity of proceeding with all possible despatch
    422
    with the extension of the underground line, and he hoped that he would give such a promise in regard to the matter as would induce his hon. friend to withdraw his Motion for the reduction of the Vote.
    MR. FELLreferred to the breakdown of the service between San Francisco and New Zealand. That service was established fifty years ago, and was so successful that merchants at home and abroad used it for their correspondence. Three years ago the service which formerly was monthly was improved to a three-weekly service. In the month of February last a notice had been put in the Post Offices all over the country that letters to New Zealand should not be addressed via New York and San Francisco but via Suez Canal. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there was any prospect of the old service being re-established.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he could give no information, because he had no control over the service
    MR. FELLsaid the new service had broken down completely. The old service was eight days shorter than the route by which letters were now sent to New Zealand, and fourteen days shorter than the alternative route. Postal services all over the world were being shortened, and it was an anomaly that one of our principal Colonies should suffer from this retrograde measure.
    *THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Gentleman was not in order in taking the line he was now doing, inasmuch as the Postmaster-General disclaimed responsibility.
    MR. FELLsaid his complaint was that the Postmaster-General did not foresee this breakdown.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: The Postmaster-General says he has nothing to do with it; so the whole matter is out of order.
    *MR. J. D. WHITEsaid he desired to direct attention to the case of sub-postmasters in what were sometimes called shop post offices. In such places as he had in mind, namely, some of the watering-places on the Firth of

    423
    Clyde, and particularly one in his own constituency, very high rents were charged for very poor accommodation. The accommodation might be adequate at other times of the year, but in the summer months the great influx of summer visitors tended to upset all the post office arrangements, and the people employed in these sub-post offices had to work from early morning till late at night for a remuneration which in his opinion was utterly inadequate to the circumstances of the case. He understood that the case of the sub-postmasters was being considered by a Select Committee, but having regard to the fact that this particular class were especially hard-worked during the summer season in certain Scottish watering-places and were working under different conditions, he desired to direct special attention to their case. He therefore took this opportunity of bringing it before his right hon. friend for favourable consideration.
    MR. BOWLESreferred to what he described as an extraordinary and wanton piece of red-tapeism on the part of the Postmaster-General. The right hon. Gentleman had enacted, for the first time, that, in order to be entitled to the halfpenny postage rate, trade orders must be written not, as at present, on a plain sheet of paper, but upon a printed form. He asked for an explanation of what seemed to him to be an unreasonable and indefensible change, which prejudicially affected an enormous number of small traders throughout the country.
    MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid he associated himself with what had fallen from the hon. Member for East Edinburgh. With regard to the underground wires to Edinburgh, he was extremely disappointed that the right hon. Gentleman had not seen his way to give more practical sympathy to the hon. Member who moved the reduction. No doubt it was a question of money, but if it had been an Irish matter instead of a Scottish matter, in all probability the money would have been forthcoming. If Scotsmen were not so out-spoken as hon. Members representing the sister isle, it was no reason why they should not be treated fairly in these matters. He hoped
    424
    the right hon. Gentleman would be able to inform the Committee when he anticipated that the underground wires would be completed between Glasgow and Edinburgh. He trusted that the Postmaster-General would give thorn an assurance that the question of subsidy to the West India mail service would be considered in a practical and sympathetic spirit. The telegraphic service to the West Indies was at present conducted by a cable partly foreign, telegrams from Trinidad to Demerara having to pass by the West India and Panama Company's line through Cuba up to Key West. There was a proposal for an extension of the British cable, the Halifax, Bermuda, and Jamaica route, which would give an all British communication. The connection between this country and Demerara was often interrupted, and in the interest of British Guiana it was important that knowledge of the state of the markets in London and New York should be at all times available, which it was not under existing circumstances, and he hoped the Postmaster-General would consider with a sympathetic spirit the extension of the all British cable from Halifax to Trinidad.
    *MR. WEIRacknowledged the services of the hon. Member for Canterbury in connection with postal reform, and complimented the Postmaster-General upon the courteous and energetic attention he gave to all administrative matters brought to his notice. He could not say the same of permanent officials at a distance from headquarters, and he complained that in the Highlands too much attention was given to representations of landlords and sporting tenants, those officials taking the information from them instead of from the people and local representatives of the people. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman, on further inquiry in those matters which he now had in hand, would consider the wants of the people first and those of the landlords and sporting tenants second. He thanked the Postmaster-General for carrying out the simplification of withdrawals by depositors in Post Office banks—a great advantage to depositors and a saving of official clerical work. He directed attention to the practice of postmasters in country districts of appointing girl telegraphists. In the great central districts these places are

    425
    filled by competitive examination, but in the country districts the postmaster was in the habit of putting in whoever he chose; he might put in his own daughter or some relative, or if he were a bachelor, what was more natural than he should put in, say, the younger sister of his fiancée. Again he urged that a better steamer service should be provided for conveyance of the Stornoway mails. This was an old grievance. The Stornoway mails for many years had been carried by an old steamship that had been subsidised to carry these mails between Kyle and Stornoway. The service was inadequate and for many years past a better steamer had been asked for. Years ago they had been told that the correspondence and parcels dealt with by this service were not sufficient to warrant the postal authorities in paying an extra £1,200 or £1,500 a year. The number of letters and parcels had, however, trebled in the last few years and he trusted, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would approach the Chancellor of the Exchequer and get the additional money, or take it out of his balance before he handed it over to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    *MR. NIELDsaid that he recognised the unfailing courtesy of the Postmaster-General in dealing with the complaints which had arisen during the past official year in the Ealing Division, but there was one subject which was a most pressing and urgent one and upon which there was in the borough of Ealing a strong feeling. In population and importance it should have better postal facilities and not be subjected to the delay caused by mails being distributed from Paddington, and continue to be a sub-office to that district. Letters posted in the division for delivery in the neighbourhood were sent up to Paddington only to be there sorted and returned. This was the cause of considerable delay and inconvenience and created much dissatisfaction in this district. He hoped that the subject would receive the sympathetic consideration of the right hon. Gentlemen. He also called attention to the delays that a rose in consequence of the arbitrary division of the north and north-west London districts. If the hon. Member for the Scotland Division was bold
    426
    enough, with his past experience, to embark upon the promotion of fresh legislation and to deal with newspaper-postage anomalies there were other subjects which deserved his consideration, but he would suggest to the Postmaster-General that he should himself introduce a Bill on postal matters and require that all letters of a certain class should have the name and address of the sender upon the envelopes. Professional money-lenders sent out letters in every conceivable form, so that one would think that one was receiving an invitation to a social at home, and some of them bore crosts or other marks, all being clothed in a style which compelled one's attention. On opening those communications one found that they contained a most seductive circular offering aid to anyone in temporary difficulties on exceptional terms. If the Postmaster-General could see his way to compelling those gentlemen to put their names and addresses on the envelopes, they would all go direct into the waste-paper basket, as they deserved to do. Another class were the betting fraternity whose communications might be similarly, distinguished.
    *MR. REESasked if any reduction was contemplated in the telegraph rates to India. As he understood, three or four years ago it was decided that the reductions then made were to last for two years longer. As the matter was one of very great importance, if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to give them any information it would be very acceptable, because speedy and cheap communication with India was a necessity and at the present moment the necessity was more evident than usual. Another question was this. He found that there was great difficulty in getting communication in Africa to Blantyre. Frequently the wires were down for between a week and a fortnight. He did not know how far this was under the right hon. Gentleman's control. He believed the line was the property of the British South Africa Company, and no doubt there were great difficulties with the line towards Nyassa Land. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give him some information, as the matter was of importance to a good many people.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid with regard to the last two questions it was not a matter for the Post Office, and the same answer really applied to one or two other questions which had been raised. In regard to the Colonial service he very much regretted what had occurred. They were now in negotiation with the Treasury and the Royal Mail Company, and he hoped that they would be able to come to some arrangement with regard to that important service. There was a very considerable grievance as to the way in which that service had been conducted. He had been asked about the Cable Company; that again was a matter over which he had no control. The hon. Member for Ealing had asked him a question about the Ealing Office. It was very much a matter of jealousy, a matter of rivalry in the district, and he was afraid that under the circumstances he could hold out no hope, but he would take the Ealing case into consideration. The hon. Member for Ealing had asked him about certain classes of letters and circulars which were sent through the Post. A number of concessions had been made in regard to the quantity and variety of documents which might, be sent through the post, and the number of letters and circulars sent had greatly increased. In connection with the particular form of letter to which the hon. Member referred, it would be very difficult to detect, and though the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman might be possible in some cases yet it might give rise to some disadvantage. Looking at the matter all round he did not think that there was cause for complaint because generally there had been a considerable extension of the documents that could be sent through the halfpenny post. He would keep the matter under his consideration as he would like to give a little more attention to it, but at the present moment his view was that the concessions which had been made were too important to be withdrawn. He was quite prepared to look into the matter again; but he could see the difficulty in which it would place a number of persons. The hon. Member for Ross-shire had addressed to him a question about the telegraphic withdrawals from the Savings Bank, and he was glad to see that it had not led to fraud. As far as he could recollect there had been scarcely a case in which there had been fraudulent appropriation,
    428
    and he thought that the plan was a great success. As regarded the question of the learners he quite agreed that the system of minimising nominations should continue. With regard to Stornoway his recollection about that was vague.
    MR. WEIRsaid the postal business at Stornaway had increased during the last few years. The population of the island was 31,000, and they wanted very badly indeed a larger subsidy in order that a better steamer might be provided for the service.
    MR. SIDNEY BUXTONsaid he recollected the fact, and he would see what could be done with regard to Stornoway. In reference to the point raised by his hon. friend the Member for Inverness Burghs, all he could say with reference to it was that they were pressing on with the money at their disposal as rapidly as they could, on the system to which he had referred. That must be completed first before they could decide what would be the next step to take. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that the Aberdeen line and the other lines would certainly be treated with the utmost possible consideration. He quite appreciated the great importance of those towns and the great commercial disadvantages to which they were subject, in consequence not only of big storms, but of the other causes to which his hon. friend had referred. They were not negotiating with regard to Indian telegraphrates. His hon. friend knew that a few years ago there was a very considerable reduction of rates, and those were public companies over which he had no control. His hon. friend for the Scotland division had raised a very important point. He had said that the present state of the newspaper law was chaotic. He wanted to point out to him that the circumstances to which he referred were not under his control at all. They all came under the Act of 1870, which was passed at the instigation of the newspaper proprietors at the time. He could only say that be was not prepared to introduce legislation with regard to it. He thought his hon. friend would understand that he could not make any promise on behalf of the Government; to add to the number of Bills, seeing that they

    429
    had already had two all-night, sittings on a Bill of the hon. Gentleman would be a very risky thing to do.
    And, it being a quarter past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding as postponed without Question. put

    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (ELECTRIC SUPPLY) BILL [BY ORDER].
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    MR. COURTHOPEmoved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. If the powers which were given by the Bill were carried out at all it would result in the very worst form of municipal trading. It practically extinguished private enterprise and the wholesome competition which tended to economy and efficiency over a very large area. The Bill would establish a statutory monopoly over an area of some 700 square miles, including not only the county of London, but parts of Essex, Kent, Surrey, and Middlesex. Over the whole of this vast district private enterprise in the supply of electricity would be entirely extinguished, with the exception of two enterprises which were expressly excepted—the municipal electric supplies of Marylebone and Woolwich, which had presumably been excluded because those enterprises were in a bad way. They all agreed that the position of the Metropolis was not at all up-to-date, although he did not think this Bill was the right way to remedy that condition of affairs. The present position was established by the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, under which some fifty independent generating stations and systems were set up on a comparatively small scale and applying to comparatively small areas. Since the establishment of the fifty existing enterprises the demand not only for supply in bulk on a large scale, but for other supplies, had become so great that those fifty enterprises had been for a long time incapable of meeting anything like a popular demand. It could not be done
    430
    cheaply and efficiently by small enterprises over small by small enter-possible with the areas. It was now possible with the improvements that had taken place in electrical engineering and science to provide electricity over a large area very cheaply indeed, and he believed it could be provided at considerably less than a penny per unit. He thought they were agreed that there must be some kind of control over the enterprises set up, and that for the metropolitan area the London County Council should be the controlling authority. The Select Committee which sat last year recommended, in Clause 18 of their Report, that the County Council should be the authority. The Committee added—
    "The Committee have in view the fact that the County Council, as this authority, may exercise its powers in more than one way:—(a) The County Council may undertake the whole work, providing every authorised distributor and every private consumer with electricity in bulk at a maximum scale of prices; (b) the County Council may retain for itself one part of the undertaking, while permitting a private enterprise to undertake another part; (c) the County Council may lease for a substantial consideration the whole enterprise to a private enterprise, to resume possession of it when its initial stages are over."
    There were those three alternatives, and it was on the last alternative that there was a possibility that the objection which he was putting before the House to this Bill might be removed. The first and second of those alternatives were very objectionable, because they set up a statutory municipal monopoly. The Bill had been introduced by the London County Council several times. There were Bills in 1902 and 1903, and there was the Bill this year. The Bill of last year went up to the Select Committee, but that Committee found that the preamble was not proved, and the Bill fell to the ground. The principal difference in this Bill as compared with the Bill of last year consisted in the fact that last year's Bill was only permissive, and there was no obligation upon the County Council, having taken over all the electrical enterprises in this 700 square miles, to provide electricity in bulk for any purpose at all, either to a company or to an individual. But that was to a certain extent removed in the Bill they were now discussing. This Bill was to a certain extent obligatory, but the obligation was rendered almost nugatory by the power

    431
    which the County Council were endeavouring to obtain by the Bill to insist on a very long term of contracts under somewhat onerous conditions. The Bill gave power to the London County Council to take over all existing undertaking except the two which he had mentioned— Woolwich and Marylebone, which they apparently did not desire take over for financial reasons. For this purpose the County, Council would be entitled under the Bill to raise,£4,500,000 capital under Clause 54, and also an absolutely indefinite sum under Clause 55. In fact the powers of increasing the indebtedness of London were almost unlimited under the Bill. That was one of the principal objections which he had to it. The method provided for the repayment of the money was absolutely unsound. The Bill sought to set up that the repayment should be by a sixty years sinking fund, the repayment not to begin till the year 1913, so that for all practical purposes the repayment was spread over sixty five years. What was the life of electrical plant? Was it not the height of folly to set up a sinking fund in respect of a vast electrical undertaking extending over sixty-five years, which was many times the life of an electrical plant? Even if the plant could be made to last that period it was perfectly certain that, with the progress of science and invention, the existing plant would have to be replaced over and over again before this vast sum of money was repaid. Then, in addition, there would have to be another sinking fund to meet the purchase of the existing liabilities of the undertakings acquired. Therefore the ratepayers of London would be saddled with two sinking funds, one of an ascertainable amount, and the other of an absolutely unknown amount which would be incurred under the powers of this Bill. Not only would the ratepayers of London be saddled with; these two sinking funds, but their credit would be pledged for the benefit of a large area outside the county of London. If the enterprise was a failure, the loss would fall on the ratepayers of the county of London, not on the whole area of 700 square miles. The area outside the county of London would have no financial responsibility at all, and for that reason the ratepayers of London had very good reason to distrust this Bill. Beyond those which he had men-
    432
    tioned there were a number of other powers set up by the Bill. One was the power to trade in electrical appliances of all kinds. That would be a very dangerous. interference with the whole-some competition of private enterprise, and should not be permitted to any municipal body. The objections he had raised to the Bill were principally on financial grounds. Municipal enterprise which excluded private enterprise was almost always a financial failure. It was neither economical nor efficient, and he thought the ratepayers of London who would have to pay for the vast scheme set up by this Bill had a right to look for economical and efficient working. On the other hand, the Moderate Party, the Party now in power on the London County Council, were the Party opposed to municipal monopoly and municipal trading in competition with private enterprise. They disapproved and he disapproved of the policy of taxing capital in order to compete against that capital. He hoped that in the course of the debate that night some authoritative statement would be made on behalf of the County Council, which might remove the objections he had raised to the Bill. From a recent debate in the County Council he gathered that if this Bill passed the Council would lease their powers under it to private companies. If the Council leased their powers, then there would be that competition by private companies which was so necessary to efficiency and public economy. If he got an authoritative statement that that would be done, he would withdraw his opposition to the Bill.
    *SIR SAMUEL SCOTTon behalf of his constituents, seconded the rejection of the Bill. Marylebone had been entirely left out of this Bill, because, he thought, of the fact that the electric lighting undertaking which the borough council had acquired had not been a great financial success. Perhaps that was not the reason, but unless some undertaking was given on behalf of the London County Council that what was proposed in this Bill would not further handicap the Borough Council of Marylebone in regard to their undertaking he would have to press the Amendment to a division. Hon. Members were no doubt aware that a very large outlay had

    433
    been incurred by the Borough Council of Marylebone in acquiring the electric undertaking. The council went to arbitration with the company, and a very large award was given to the company. One of the chief reasons for the size of the award was that the borough council were to have a monopoly of the electric lighting supply in Marylebone. But now, under this Bill, a private company might come into competition with the Marylebone Borough Council and supply electricity in Marylebone. It was not fair that Marylebone, having paid a big price for the monopoly of supply, should have it taken away from them and that private companies should have power to compete.
    Amendment proposed.
    "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this day six months.'"—(Mr. Courthope.)
    Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
    *MR. WOODsaid that the hon. Member for Rye, in moving the rejection, had given a strong reason why the Bill should be passed into law. He had pointed out that, while the present system of generating in a small area was unsatisfactory and did not satisfy the public demand, yet he believed that an adequate system for an adequately large area would be capable of producing an economic supply and fulfilling the requirements of the commerce of London. It was for that very reason this Bill was brought in by the County Council. They would not do anything to extinguish the private enterprises that existed at present. On the contrary, if the scheme of the late Council had been allowed to proceed, it would have recognised that these existing companies had a statutory right until 1931, and suitable arrangements would have been made with them. Parliament intended that the ultimate authority should be the municipal authority, because it provided that these companies should be purchased, most of them in 1931. He would frankly say why Marylebone and Woolwich were not included in this Bill. The reason was that both these authorities committed the mistake of allowing a company to set itself up within their area, and then had to buy the undertakings at an
    434
    enormous cost. The Marylebone company only spent £500,000 on their works, and yet the borough had to pay them £1,200,000—a profit of £700,000 made in a very short time.
    SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: Is that a reason why Marylebone should be left out of this Bill?
    *MR. WOODreplied that the Council hesitated to encumber the new municipal undertaking with that enormous premium of £700,000 upon a single small undertaking. He sympathised in some respects with the feelings of the hon. Member for Marylebone. He was glad that he was taking up the position of defending the interest of that borough. He was himself a resident in Marylebone, and had to pay the high price due to the enormous premium which the Council had paid for the electric undertaking.
    MR. LUPTON: Can the hon. Member say who were the chief witnesses for the Marylebone Borough Council?
    *MR. WOODsaid he would not go into these personal matters on that occasion. The hon. Member had raised another matter in regard to which he sympathised with him very much. He had said he objected to a private company coming into competition with the borough council of Marylebone after it had paid such an enormous premium to obtain a monopoly. There was a reasonable objection. It was in the first place to protect the interests of the municipal authorities of London that the County Council originally took up this question. But that was an argument against leasing to a company, because, supposing the whole area of the undertaking were leased to a company, what would prevent that company from competing with the Marylebone Borough Council in such a way as to bring about the disastrous results which the hon. Member anticipated and feared? He supported the Second Reading of this Bill. That might not appear remarkable, because he backed it; yet some explanation was needed. The Bill was prepared by the late Progressive London County Council and was denounced in the most unmeasured terms at the last election.

    435
    It was now promoted by the new Moderate County Council. He was bound to say that it was with avowedly different intentions that the majority of the present Council desired that this Bill should go to a Second Reading. It was with a view to passing over the undertaking to private enterprise. [Cries of "No."] Their present intention was to hand over the whole undertaking to private enterprise and not to deal with it as the Progressive County Council would have done. He did not know that they would be able, on further reflection, to do that, but that was their present intention. Nevertheless he agreed to support the Second Reading because he felt the urgency of the question, and he did not wish to be responsible for any delay in dealing with it. He regretted that the Bill of last year had not been passed. He hoped the Bill would go before a Committee of this House which would thus obtain control over the whole question. He presumed that some Committee of this House would have to be satisfied that the conditions proposed would be in the public interest before power to deal with the matter would be given. He was certain that the present County Council could not say that they were being treated in a Party spirit. What the last County Council desired, when it brought in what was called a Permissive Bill in 1906, was to keep a free hand as regarded expenditure until they came to an arrangement with the existing companies before further public money was expended. Last year's Committee said that the County Council should bring in a more thorough-going measure and should be under an obligation to provide a cheap supply. The Committee would doubtless take care to see that the new scheme did guarantee a cheap supply, and that the interests of the consumers of electricity, both large and small manufacturers, were thoroughly safeguarded. Another essential was that there should be a really comprehensive scheme dealing with the large area covering 700 square miles which had been proposed, with a large generating station economically placed, where it would not be a nuisance to any populous part of London. It must not merely perpetuate present conditions and maintain a number of small and uneconomical generating stations. A third condition was that the County Council must be
    436
    the authority as recommended by the Committee last year. It must also protect existing municipal interests. There was a large ratepayers' interest involved, for the municipal authorities had spent some £6,500,000 of public money on electrical enterprise. Nothing must be done to put a company in a position to dominate over the interests of the ratepayers of London and the district round about. Then they had the tramways to safeguard. It was calculated that in a short time the amount of electrical energy required for the tramways would equal the output of the whole of the borough councils. That would be one difficulty in the path of leasing. He did not see how, under any system of leasing, they were going to safeguard the interests of the borough councils and the ratepayers whom they represented. There were three difficulties in the way of leasing—how to protect the local authorities, how to protect the rights of the statutory companies at present existing, and how to obtain a sufficiently comprehensive scheme with a sufficiently large system of generation. An important reason for supporting the Second Reading was that the Bill contained a provision for the purchase of the companies by the Council in 1931. He did not doubt that a Committee of this House would decide the matter in the interests neither of the Council nor of any competing body, but with a view to obtaining a wise solution of a problem that had remained unsolved too long—the provision of an economical and adequate supply of energy for the manufactures of London, and, of course, the House would reserve the right of finally dealing with the Bill when it came back from the Committee.
    *MR. W. F. D. SMITHsaid that on the present occasion he was going to support the Second Reading of the Bill although he last year moved its rejection, and he hoped he might be able to satisfy his hon. friend who moved its rejection this year and the hon. Member who had just sat down that he was justified in doing so. Last year a compromise was arrived at by which this Bill and other Bills were referred to a Select Committee, and on that understanding he withdrew his opposition to the Bill, and having done so, although he did not say they were bound to accept

    437
    the Report of the Committee, he did think that they were bound to consider it very carefully. Its terms had been quoted that evening so he need not repeat them, but he would say that he did not think that the hon. Gentlemen opposite who represented the Progressive Party in the London County Council could complain if they on that side adopted the terms of the compromise which they considered most favourable to their view and the most likely to serve the interests of the ratepayers of London. That Report suggested alternative schemes, and his hon. friend who moved the rejection of the Bill mentioned one such scheme. The Committee suggested that the County Council might lease for a substantial consideration for a certain period the whole enterprise with a view of resuming possession of it when the initial stages were over. He could hardly think that even the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down would suggest that after the last County Council election the County Council could ask this House to adopt any but the last alternative suggested by the Committee last year. It was perfectly true to say that the electrical power scheme of the late County Council was one of the chief questions which were debated on every platform during the last County Council election, and there could be no manner of doubt as to what was the answer of the ratepayers of London. It appeared to him to be absolutely impossible to embark upon what they considered last year, and what they considered now to be a great and risky scheme of electrical supply, in view of the result of the elections to which he had just referred. He did not know that it would be necessary now to refer to the report of the Finance Committee from which he quoted somewhat fully last year, but the Committee evidently thought that it was advisable that the County Council should see whether the alternative scheme would not be the best to adopt. The Parliamentary Committee of the London County Council, which considered this scheme, reported in these terms—
    "We think that the alternative provisions in the Bill may be utilised for the purpose of securing some arrangement under which the financial risks to which the Finance Committee called attention may be avoided, and in which the business of the supply of electrical energy may be carried out by private enter-
    438
    prise under the control of the Council, and that the Bill should be proceeded with with that object in view."
    Further, they suggested a resolution which was subsequently adopted at a meeting of the London County Council which ran—
    "That the London County Council (Electric Supply) Bill be submitted for Second Reading in the House of Commons with a view to securing an arrangement under which private enterprise undertakes, subject to the control of the Council, the business of the supply of electrical energy, and on the understanding that such alterations as may be required in the Bill to effect this object and to deal with any other matters of importance which may arise on the Bill, will be reported to the Council for its approval as soon as possible."
    No doubt the conditions of leasing to which the hon. Gentleman referred must be the subject of inquiry either by a Committee of this House or by a Committee of both Houses, but it did not seem that to devise satisfactory conditions was out of the reach of the ingenuity of such Committees or of the gentlemen who appeared before them as counsel. At any rate he thought that the present County Council could be trusted not to waste the ratepayers' money. He confessed that he had listened to the speech of the hon. Gentleman with some amusement, because he remembered very well—he was not quoting the words—that on this Bill last year he suggested that the County Council as an institution was identified with the Progressive Party and the Progressive Party alone, and also suggested that the ratepayers of London in the past had shown confidence in the institution as conducted by that Party by constantly returning members of it to the London County Council. Circumstances had changed cases and much had happened since the hon. Gentleman spoke.
    MR. WOODsaid he did not recognise the quotation.
    *MR. W. F. D. SMITHsaid he would read what the hon. Gentleman said—
    "His last word would be about the ratepayer. There was a notion common in some quarters that the County Council did not protect the ratepayer. If so it was an extraordinary thing how the ratepayers for so many years had approved of that institution."
    He thought that any hon. Gentleman reading that quotation would take it to mean that the Progressive Party and the Progressive Patty alone were indentified with the institution, but he thought the

    439
    ratepayers had shown during the last twelve months that they looked upon the Moderate Party, as at present constituted, as more efficient guardians of the ratepayers' pockets than the Progressive Party had been in the past. As he had said, the circumstances had changed, but he thought his hon. friend might be quite certain that due care and economy would be observed in the exercise of any powers conferred on the Council by this Bill. He could not but hope, therefore, that his hon. friend would be satisfied with such an explanation, and be content to withdraw his opposition.
    *MR. CHIOZZA MONEYregretted that he had to differ from his hon. friend the Member for the St. Rollox Division, although nobody could be more sensible of the services to London in general, and in regard to this subject in particular, which the hon. Member had rendered. It seemed to him, however, that his hon. friend, having uttered able and forcible arguments against the clauses of this Bill, had ended his argument rather lamely by asking the House to vote for the Second Reading. He rose to ask the House to reject this Bill because it contained the leasing clause—Clause 66. He would like to remind the House of the extraordinarily grave interests which were involved in this measure. It dealt with an area which he might be allowed, perhaps, to call the area of the new London—the greater London of the future. That area consisted of about 700 square miles, in which there was at present a population of 7,000,000 of people, and this was likely to have expanded to 10,000,000 or 12,000,000 before any lease would have lapsed. Yet it was proposed under this Bill, while nominally making the London County Council the electrical authority for this great area, to give powers to an authority which they knew had a full intention, indeed a declared intention, to hand over those powers for a considerable period, a period which would probably extend far beyond the lifetime of hon. Members who were listening to him, to some limited liability company, or, if he might use the word in a way which would not be misunderstood, to some trust. This was a great business and had long passed out of the experimental stage. We had in the United Kingdom some 110 or 120 successful electrical municipal undertakings in being. The position of
    440
    these undertakings was shown by a Return made to this House a few years ago. That Return showed that, allowing for the burden of the sinking fund and the interest upon the capital which had to be raised, electrical undertakings were not a burden upon municipalities which had undertaken this work. He also pointed out that in Germany where municipalities possessed freedom of action, electrical municipal undertakings were a great success. He would quote the cases of Munich and Breslau as instances in which, by means of these undertakings, not only had the interest on the capital been paid, but a sufficient sum been set aside for the sinking fund, and in addition handsome sums had been given in relief of taxation. In Munich in the last year for which he had figures the profits so handed over were £17,000 and in Breslau £20,000. Even taking the case of Berlin, which was more backward in these respects than other portions of the German Empire, the lease which had been granted expired in 1915, and in that year there could be no doubt whatever that the undertaking would be taken over by the town council of Berlin. These results had been attained and were undeniable, and yet they found that in regard to this great city, which was the capital of the Empire and he might almost say the capital of the world, there was this want of trust in the managing ability of the people of London, and they found it alleged by hon. Members opposite that there was risk in the matter. If there was such risk as hon. Members opposite alleged, why were so many keen company promoters desirous to undertake this business? His hon. friend the Member for the St. Rollox Division had mentioned many advantages which the London County Council possessed as compared with a private capitalist, but he had not mentioned one of the chief of them, viz., access to cheap money. The London County Council could command capital for this undertaking at probably 1 per cent. less than the company promoters. At the end of the lease the undertaking would have to be bought back loaded with unnecessary capital. The London County Council started with a magnificent business already made in their tramway undertaking. He asked what guidance the Government would give in this situation, which he compared to the

    441
    situation many years ago, when Governments failed to realise what the future of railways must be in this country. As a consequence we now had privately owned railways, loaded with watered capital, depressing wages while keeping up railway rates. Today, however, the Government could not plead ignorance of the tremendous future of electricity. They knew that 10,000,000 or 12,000,000 or even 15,000,000 who were going to live upon all these square miles must he the customers of the municipality for light and power in their homes, and in their manufacturing and business premises. Therefore a large number of customers was certain, and this number was no less certain to grow, and yet, knowing this, it was proposed that we should actually resign our interest in the question to some unknown party to whom would be committed the future of electrical power in London. It was not merely a question of ordinary economic development, but there was a question of social development behind it, because means should be provided which would enable us to remove our industrial enterprises to the borders of London. That could not be done without a proper distribution of electrical power. Finally, there was the great labour question, of which he would remind his friends on the Labour Benches opposite. What was the use of complaining about poverty and the distribution of wealth so long as they allowed these great national monopolies to be the prey of private capital? He invited the House to reject the measure unless they could obtain the entire deletion of Clause 66 or unless such an instruction to the Committee was agreed to as would ensure that, if a lease were granted to a private undertaking, it should terminate not later than 1931, and unless proper safeguards were inserted on the points of price, time, and dividends.
    MR. PICKERSGILLsaid it was very embarrassing to be called upon to vote on the Second Reading of a Bill which was not at all the Bill which the promoters intended to ask the House to pass into law. A great local body asked for a great monopoly of franchise, and at the fame time declared that the moment they got it they proposed to confer the whole power on a private company. He hoped that before
    442
    the powers included in Clause 66 were granted the promoters would set out the leading terms and conditions of the contract under which they proposed to lease them. It did not seem to him either an unpractical or unreasonable proposal, and he based himself upon what was said by the Chairman of the London County Council the other day. He said, "Give us one or perhaps two years that we may have plenty of time to make our negotiations with any company or companies which may come before us." If they were asking for one or two years why should they not consent, when this Bill went into Committee upstairs, to a clause binding them, before carrying into effect the powers of Clause 66, to come to Parliament and set out the terms and conditions of the lease which they proposed to give? He had said that he had grave doubt as to the vote he should give on the Second Reading of this Bill, but on the whole he had come to the conclusion to vote for the Second Reading. For many years now they had been engaged in the work of keeping a number of syndicates and companies from obtaining a great monopoly for the supply of electric power. It had been a difficult work; it had required all their efforts; and, no doubt, if the Bill should be rejected by the House that night the companies would renew their efforts, and he was very much afraid that they would not be able to resist them. He thought it would be better to give this great monopoly to the County Council even though they handed it over to a private company, rather than that it should go to a private company direct without the intervention of the London County Council. That was the result which he feared might follow if this Bill were rejected that night. Therefore, for the reasons he had given he intended to record his vote in favour of the Second Reading.
    *MR. BOWERMANsaid he opposed the Bill not on the ground put forward by the mover and seconder of the Amendment, but rather on the ground presented by the hon. Member for North Paddington. If the Bill came before the House presented by the Council with the object of taking full responsibility for running this electric power, then so far as those for whom he spoke were concerned no objection

    443
    would be raised. They understood, on the contrary, however, that the intention was to ask the House for certain powers, and after those powers had been obtained, to lease them to private companies. It was on this ground that they were entering a protest against the progress of the Bill. It had been stated that the undertaking was of a risky character. They joined in the view that had been expressed already, that if it was of so risky a character there would not be such a keen desire on the part of companies to secure the undertaking. They believed that if the question had been fairly presented the County Council would have had the consent of the ratepayers of London to the running of an electric supply. They had before them the evidence of their capacity to run one of the best tramway services in this country, and if they could do that successfully—and he ventured to submit that they were doing it successfully, certainly in the interests of London and in point of efficiency it was equal to anything that he had experienced in the provinces—if the County Council could do that with the tramways, surely they had a right to assume that, if they were granted these powers for themselves, they would make an equal success of the electric supply. They had some experience in the case of Marylebone, where a company was started, and after certain experience the ratepayers expressed a desire to purchase, and they had purchased at a huge sacrifice of money; and they contended that what had been done in the case of Marylebone, so far as the success of the undertaking was concerned—judging from the expense incurred in buying it — could also be accomplished by the County Council. They believed that the same success would attend an undertaking covering the whole of London and the suburbs; and, that being so, they would welcome the Bill if they thought that the County Council intended to take the full responsibility of giving effect to it; to grant such important and far-reaching powers, knowing beforehand that it was not the intention of the County Council themselves to give effect to those powers, was a proceeding to which they were strongly opposed. Was it to be said that
    444
    the great municipality of London was unable to do that which other municipalities of the country were doing day by day with the utmost success? If that opinion was entertained, it was not only a grave reflection on the capacity of the London authorities, but he was inclined to say that it was almost an insult to suggest it. If these powers were allowed to pass from the hands of the County Council it was only a question of time before history would repeat itself, and they would have to make overtures to those private companies, with the result that Londoners would find themselves compelled to buy them out at some extravagant rate.
    *MR. WATERLOWsaid he had not troubled the House on any previous occasion, and therefore he asked their indulgence. He rose to support this Bill as a London Member. He believed that London wanted cheap electricity for power purposes, and although he would prefer to see the London County Council do that work itself, yet he was prepared to support the Second Reading of the Bill on the principle that it was better to have half a loaf than no bread. The advantage of cheap electricity in London, and especially for small manufacturers, was of enormous importance. Cheap electricity meant cheap power. If cheap electricity could not be supplied, and London manufacturers could not get cheap power as compared with those in other cities, then London would be at a disadvantage as compared with other cities. He believed that the future of small industries in London depended on cheap power and to that extent on cheap electricity. London was the greatest city of manufacturers and small industries in the world, so that this was a matter of the utmost importance to her. The Bill embraced an area known as Greater London, and as a consequence it involved a population of perhaps 6,000,000; and, by the time this undertaking was fairly started, it would probably involve a population of 7,000,000 or 8,000,000, perhaps in a few years' time a population of 10,000,000. In giving this power to any company or corporation Parliament required to be very careful about the particulars and the details. Within the area which the Bill covered there were now working

    445
    forty-five public authorities and twenty-seven public companies. All of them supplied electricity in one form or another. All these authorities were supplying electricity on a comparatively small scale compared with the scale on which this Bill proposed to proceed. As a consequence, most of the authorities were not able to produce electricity as this Bill would enable the County Council to do, no matter whether it leased the undertaking or worked it itself. The problem of cheap electricity was what was known as the problem of the "load factor." In other words, they wanted equality of load during the twenty-four hours to produce the electricity on the cheapest scale possible. They could not do that with an electric lighting company, because the maximum load was only required during a few hours of darkness, morning and night; but they could do it if they combined power to supply electricity to a much greater extent with lighting electricity. Therefore the larger the area, the larger the scale on which the thing was done, the bigger the average load, and consequently the greater cheapness. With a big undertaking like that, they could get rid of small steam engines, and small gas engines, and small methods of producing power throughout a vast number of factories, and then they would have advanced very considerably in giving benefits to London. If they could substitute for small power-producing machines various kinds of electric motors, the benefit to London would be enormous. With a big electric power producing undertaking all small manufacturers would be in the hands of that undertaking in the future. Those who used bulk electricity would be in the hands of that undertaking in the future. That would be the serious position of affairs if this Bill passed into law and those powers were leased to a company. That company would to a large extent control the power supply of a vast number of manufacturing concerns in London. Then there were the existing companies and the existing borough councils dealing with electricity in London. If this undertaking was put forward, the big concern must eventually swallow up the small ones, and they would have in London one big monopoly. That was why he thought this business ought to be kept in the hands of the public authority. Therefore, the supreme importance of
    446
    this question to London was largely complicated by the existence of these electric supply companies and the existence of the borough councils. If there was to be any leasing then he attached the greatest importance to the date of 1931. In that year the existing companies, or almost all the existing companies, had all their powers purchasable by the borough councils, as the law stood at present. If leasing there was to be it must not extend beyond the year 1931, or at all events, the whole question of electric power for London must, in some form or another, come up for review in 1931, and any lease now granted by the London County Council should be capable of being reviewed when all these companies fell in for purchase. He could plainly see that this Bill involved the whole future of London as a manufacturing city, and it embraced thousands of manufacturers both large and small. It embraced the supplying of electric power for docks, harbours, railways, and tramways, and also electricity for private houses. It was not at all improbable that in the near future they might see electricity produced so cheaply that it would be a practical thing for everybody to have electric fires in the place of coal fires. That would be an enormous advantage to London and greatly for the benefit of its people who had coal fires now, not only in the way of convenience and cleanliness, but also in ameliorating the atmospheric conditions from which they all suffered so much in the shape of fogs in winter time. The area this Bill covered was so large, the population so great, and the issues involved so momentous to the future welfare of London, that he was prepared to vote for the Second Reading.
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid that as hon. Members who were in the last Parliament knew, this was a subject which occupied the attention of the Board of Trade to a very great extent a few years ago, and he might, perhaps, be permitted to say one or two words only in regard to it. What struck him in reference to the debate to which they had listened so far was the remarkable difference between the speech of the hon. Member for St. Rollox and the speech of the hon. Member for North Paddington. The former realised that there had been a County

    447
    Council election, but the latter seemed to think for the moment that he was addressing an audience on the issue which was before the constituencies in that election. He did not think that it was the business of the House now to go into the question of the merits or demerits to any extent of private trading as against municipal enterprise. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh."] Hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway and hon. Gentlemen opposite were now very indignant with another Assembly because it interfered with the mandate which was given to them at the last General Election. They were now setting themselves up as a House of Lords to obstruct the action of the deliberately chosen members of the London County Council. ["Oh, oh."] The hon. Member for North Paddington had spoken as if it depended upon the rate at which capital could be got—
    MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I only suggested that that was one of the vital factors in the matter.
    MR. BONAE LAWsaid that was the factor which struck him as the most important in his speech. There was another factor which was at least as important as the rate at which the capital was raised, and that was the way in which the business was managed. If he believed that municipalities as a whole would manage their business undertakings as well as private enterprise he would be much more in favour of municipal enterprise. He had nothing to say against the gentlemen who were chosen as representatives on county councils and other bodies. They had had good representatives on the whole throughout the United Kingdom, but rightly or wrongly he believed that in business matters the business would be best managed where the man who made the mistake knew that he would have to pay for it out of his own pocket. If a business was to be well managed, the men who were to manage it ought to be selected on account of their quality as business men. Could anyone say that even at the last London County Council election the deciding factor was the view which the electors held as to the business capacity of the men who stood before them? Everybody knew it was not. Those were not the grounds
    448
    on which his friends secured a majority on the County Council. It was not their business qualities; it was the knowledge of the complete absence of business qualities on the part of their predecessors. In an election of that kind the men were not chosen for their business qualities. Nobody would deny that. In private enterprise there was some kind of a law which governed these things, and it was the law of the survival of the fittest. They might take it as certain that in the long run if they pitted that issue against selection generally on account of their speaking qualities, it was the private enterprise man and not the municipal man who would run the business to the best advantage and make the most money out of it. The thing which impressed him was the strong demand which was expressed on the part of the manufacturers, and especially the small manufacturers of London, that in some way or other a scheme of cheaper electricity should be supplied. Suppose the House took the view of the hon. Member for North Paddington; it would certainly mean that they were not going to have this supply of electricity in any time to which any of them could reasonably look forward. They could not have it in this Parliament because the County Council would not adopt the scheme. Therefore they could never have it until the majority in this House and the majority on the County Council happened to coincide. For that reason alone he was certain that his hon. friend the Member for the St. Rollox Division was right in saying that with proper safeguards it was better to get a cheap supply of electricity now than have the thing hung up indefinitely and practically for ever. He believed that the majority on the County Council were in this matter taking the right course. They were pledged to have the business conducted by private enterprise if they could. Having taken that course their obvious duty was to obtain from Parliament powers which would enable them to make the best bargain they could in the interests of London. He had been afraid that the majority on the County Council might try to make some arrangement with a particular company, and that would be distinctly bad business. What they had got to do was to get the powers, and then try to get competition from different companies. ["Oh!"] Most certainly

    449
    that was their duty—to get competition from different companies as to the terms of the lease, and to grant the lease to the company which would give to London the best terms, provided they were certain that there was enough capital in that company to carry out the obligations they agreed to undertake. That was precisely the intention of the majority of the London County Council. It was part of their policy to lease this franchise on the distinct understanding that the right of purchase at a reasonable time was to be retained to the County Council. They were going to give it on condition that the rates were to be revised just as was proposed by the administrative company two years ago—that the rates were to be subject to revision by the Board of Trade, that the scale of dividends was to be a moving scale, and that the dividend was not to get too high without a reduction in the rates; and they were also bound to make this arrangement, that they would only lease to a company if they were prepared to treat existing bodies, both municipalities and private companies, on terms which the House of Commons considered fair. If that was what the hon. Gentleman meant by saying that the County Council was bound to state clearly the conditions on which they meant to make the lease, he thought he was right. That was their duty before the Committee, but if, as the hon. Member for Bethnal Green suggested, the County Council was to be bound to come to Parliament with the definite agreement that they were going to make with a definite company, that seemed to him extremely bad business. It would prevent them getting as good an arrangement as they otherwise would if they were tied down in that way. Moreover, if the obligation was placed upon them to come to Parliament, notices would have to be lodged a long time before, and that meant that at least one year, and probably two years, would be lost before any arrangement of the kind could be come to. There was nothing more needed in a great City like London, where there were so many small industries, than that they should have a cheap supply of electricity for all purposes; and they could only get that by an arrangement such as that which was now proposed. If they rejected this proposal there was no reasonable prospect of such an arrangement being made in a reasonable time.
    450
    Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House were quite right to see that the terms of the lease were as favourable as they could get a company, with prospect of raising the necessary capital, to accept; but it was also their duty to give to the manufacturers of London, whose interest was really as great as the profits the ratepayers would make out of running the business themselves, what was, after all, more important, the chance of obtaining a cheap supply of electricity all over London.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,): I am rather afraid that the views of hon. Members on this Bill have been very largely coloured by the difference between the political complexion of the County Council of last year and that of the County Council of this year. The Government has nothing to do with that, and I suggest that the House of Commons ought not to consider that. We have got to deal with the Bill on its merits. The Bill is framed on the recommendations of the Committee which considered the whole matter of electric supply in London last year, and on that ground I support its Second Reading. The Bill is in the position of having been framed by a County Council which was Progressive, and it is now being promoted by a Moderate Council. I am glad the majority of London Members have taken what I would call the more temperate and more sensible view, and have decided to support a Bill which they themselves have framed. That is, I think, a very wise decision, and I am surprised they should have hesitated at all, because it is their own Bill. [An Hon. MEMBER: No.] The hon. Member for Bethnal Green says it is not the Bill they framed, but it is. [An Hon. MEMBER: No.] It is true that the promoters have stated that they are not going to proceed with certain clauses, but that is a matter for the Committee. The Bill before the House at this moment is the identical Bill drafted by the late County Council, but if the Committee report that they cannot recommend it if these clauses are withdrawn, then that will be a matter for the House to consider. All kinds of questions have been discussed which really have nothing to do with the Second Reading of the Bill. The question of what the Council should do with its

    451
    powers afterwards seems to me irrelevant, except upon the principle that you will not allow any authority to part with its powers; but that is not the position of the London County Council. They have incorporated provisions enabling agreements to be made. It may be said the Council should not be allowed to leave the matter to private enterprise under any conditions, but that is not the opinion of most of the representatives of London. The question raised as to terms and conditions is not a question to be settled on Second Reading; it is purely a matter for Committee. I would not say that the House of Commons should part with its authority and give unlimited powers to a municipality to part with this franchise for ever; I agree with the hon. Member for Paddington and North Islington in that, but that is not a question to be discussed on the Second Reading and should not weigh with the House in giving a Second Reading decision. It may be a legitimate question to raise in an Instruction to the Committee, that there should be a limit imposed is a question of general principle, but is not relevant to the Second Reading. The hon. Member for St. Rollox in his able speech said that of course the House reserved the right to deal with the Bill when it came back from Committee—a rational view and in accordance with Parliamentary traditions. The House does not part with the right to deal with a Bill when it is sent to a Committee to be considered and reported upon; the recommendation of the Committee is submitted to the judgment of the House, and any Amendment can be moved on the Report stage. It is left open to my hon. friend after the Bill has gone to the Committee to submit his ideas and those of his friends as to the powers which ought to be given to the London County Council. Matters of detail must be threshed out in Committee. I cannot discuss the Instruction on the Paper, but I sincerely hope my hon. friends will see their way to leave the matter until the Bill returns to the House. I cannot enter into the substance of the Instruction; I will say that in my judgment it is contrary to every procedent and that it would fetter the Council in a matter where, if there is to be leasing at all, there should be freedom to make terms. I recommend my hon. friends to consider the suggestion of the hon. Mem-
    452
    ber for North Paddington and direct their minds to a limitation of the power of the Council to part with its franchise in point of time. It should be so limited that the County Council in 1931 would be able to deal with the question of purchase as a whole; that is the date when most of the private enterprises might be purchased by the municipality. Some limitation of that kind is a legitimate matter to discuss as a matter of principle, but I trust the House will now give a Second Reading to the Bill. The hon. Member for Rye said that municipal enterprise in this matter had been a failure. It is simply ridiculous to make a sweeping assertion like that in face of the facts. As a matter of fact municipal enterprise in this matter has been a great success. Ten out of twelve municipal enterprises of the kind in London show a profit on a lower rate of charge. That is very important. In a matter of this kind the chief point of view of the House of Commons ought to be, not the dividend paying interest, but the interest of the consumer; and I find that the difference between the charge made by the municipalities and the charge made by the private companies is something like 1d. per unit, or about 30 per cent., lower in favour of the consumer. Moreover, the municipalities make a very considerable profit on their very reduced charges. It is the same in the provinces. I find that the gross profit made by the provincial local authorities upon a capital expenditure of £22,800,000 for the supply of electricity is over £2,000,000. The object of the municipality is not so much to make profit as to supply electricity at the cheapest possible rate. The prime consideration of a company is to make a dividend, and with that view they naturally put their charges as high as possible. Yet here are the provincial municipalities, with every pressure put upon them to fix their charges at the lowest possible point, making the considerable profit of £2,000,000, and, what is more, with £1,265,000 for the purposes of sinking funds. Surely that is a really great triumph for municipal enterprise. This seems to be the only country in the world where there exists this terror of municipal enterprise. Go to Germany, the great bogey of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and you will find the municipalities supplying docks, electricity, water, gas,

    453
    houses, and land. If I support this Bill with the power which it contains for leasing, it is not because I express any opinion in regard to leasing. I leave the London County Council to take their option. An hon. Member has quoted the example set by foreign countries in regard to railways, and I do not think he could put forward a better illustration. I have always thought it was one of the greatest misfortunes of this country, especially in competition with a country like Germany, which has State railways, that it should have parted with the railways, practically for ever, to private enterprise. Supposing the proposal of leasing that is made here in the case of electricity had been applied long ago to the railways, supposing private enterprise had been allowed to develop the railways and then the State to come in and pay a fair price for them. The whole of the railways would now be in the hands of the people, and they would be worked for the development of native industries, instead of being worked, as they are often at present, in the interest of foreign competitors.
    SIR F. BANBURY: You can have the railways now at a fair price.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I know the hon. Baronet's idea of a fair price. I do not like these City notions of a fair price; it is a very hard bargain. Here we have simply now to decide the question whether we are going to carry out the recommendations of the Committee that the County Council shall have the control, and other questions can be fought out afterwards.
    MR. CROOKSsaid he could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this Bill was identical with that of last year.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: That is not what I have stated. I said that the Bill of last year was sent upstairs to a Committee, which recommended that there should be a different Bill this year. I have said it was the same Bill as was introduced by the Progressive County Council.
    MR. CROOKSsaid, as a matter of fact, it was not, for it contained a leasing clause.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: That clause was in the Bill framed by the Progressive Comity Council.
    MR. CROOKSasked why it was, in that case, that the Progressive Party had put on the Paper an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill. The leasing clause practically meant that they would be compelled to lease, and then exactly the same thing would happen as they had experienced in the case of tramway leases, under which the County Council had been unable to improve the hours of labour, or rates of wages, or reduce the fares. It was said that as there would be competition they would get a good price; but what would happen would be that there would be an amalgamation of the electrical companies in London who would arrange the price before they went to the County Council. Many of the local authorities had already got electrical plant; were they going to allow a great trust to come in and practically scrap that plant, leaving the authorities to bear the burden of the rates? They had just heard from the President of the Board of Trade the same old official arguments. There had been no change of Government in his life. ["Oh."] There had only been a change of representation in the House of Commons. They always got the same kind of argument from right hon. Gentlemen that everything was all right, and they must allow the present position of things to go on. They could never bring about a revolution merely with a change of representation. The permanent officials were against the proposal. But he urged the House to open its eyes and not give away the inheritance that belonged to the people of London. The Council ought to have full power to supply the electricity, because otherwise the Moderates and their friends on the Stock Exchange would "rig" this electric supply as they "rigged" a loan a few days ago.
    *MR. DICKINSONsaid he hoped the House would pardon his intervention on this occasion, but he spoke on the authority of London Members, and had on their authority put an Instruction on the Paper. The County Council, now representing the opposite Party, put forward a proposal with which he disagreed, but in such a form that he

    455
    felt it difficult to oppose, because as it stood before the House it was a Bill with a great deal of which he could agree. The London Members felt that London stood at perhaps the most serious crisis in its municipal life. It was important that the House of Commons should understand the position of the Party now in ascendency on the Council. It had been frankly admitted that a subsidiary clause of the Bill—namely, one empowering the Council to transfer its powers to a private undertaking—would in Committee be made the main purpose of the Bill. Therefore this was a Bill which proposed to start a system by which powers given to a local authority might be handed over en bloc to a private undertaking. He thought that consideration ought to alter the position which had been adopted by the President of the Board of Trade. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that he was for acting on principles of local autonomy, and that the London County Council if they had these powers should be left to decide whether they should hand them over to a private company or not. That principle of local autonomy was new, so far as his connection with the London County Council was concerned. Even in the Bill of last year which proposed to give the Council a free hand in dealing with this question of electricity the Board of Trade asked the House not to allow the autonomy that was now suggested. And surely London Members of Parliament had also some right to speak on behalf of London, and they begged the House carefully to consider before it took a step which would grant to the County Council the right to do exactly what it liked in setting up a new system of franchises to private undertakings. The main question was as to whether it was expedient that a public authority should actually work an undertaking such as this or that a private company should do it. It was well that the House should be given an opportunity of really considering the question of the respective merits of public municipal ownership as against private enterprise. The hon. Member for Dulwich had announced himself as absolutely opposed to municipalities carrying on this work, but he had said that if it could be proved that the work of the municipalities was more beneficial than that of companies he would change his opinion. He
    456
    (Mr. Dickinson) had had opportunities of studying municipal undertakings pretty extensively during many years, and he believed that it could be proved conclusively that work of this character carried on by a public authority was more efficacious and more economical than work carried on by companies. He could give the House many figures with regard to that, but he would avoid too much detail. He would draw the attention of the hon. Member to the Returns which had been given to the House of the respective trading capacity of municipal tramway undertakings and those of private tramway companies. If hon. Gentlemen would look at those Returns they would see that on an average the municipalities had been able to lay down tram lines at a cheaper rate per mile than the companies, that they had worked them with a smaller percentage of working expenses on gross receipts and that their net revenue showed a considerably greater percentage return on the capital expenditure than that of the companies; and moreover the net revenue per mile was larger than the net revenue per mile of the companies, and the average fare charged was smaller than the average fare charged by the companies. He could show that the same thing applied all through England, Scotland and Ireland. If they considered the southern tramway undertaking of the London County Council and compared it with the undertaking of the London United Tramways Company, they would find that the same thing held good throughout — there were cheaper fares, it was more economically worked, and the return in actual percentage on the capital was considerably greater in the ease of the London County Council system. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had told the House that in his opinion the borough councils carried on their electric lighting undertakings more economically than the companies. That was perfectly correct, and the same thing applied in other countries. In Germany, the municipalities made a point of working their own undertakings, and they did so with the approval of the trading community in those towns. That was one of the reasons why Germany had been so prosperous. And if they went to the United States they would see precisely the other thing happening. Any hon. Gentleman who had been through

    457
    New York knew perfectly well the condition of the streets in that city. No town he had ever soon was anything like so bad as regarded its paving as New York. He had had the advantage of going through the streets of New York in company with one of the principal officials of the municipalities of New York. He asked him the reason why the streets were in that condition, and he replied that it was due to the fact that the tramways had been leased and handed over to a company, with the control of the repair of the streets in the hands of that company, and he added that the council would not exercise their powers to force the company to repair the streets. If he had had a free hand he could have put the streets of New York into good repair in a few months. He ventured to ask the House, with the knowledge of what the granting of franchises had come to in American cities, whether it was not an important question for them to consider whether they would establish that system in London. He believed no greater disaster could happen to London than that they should establish this system of franchise, which was at present unknown in this country. The President of the Board of Trade had referred to the Committee of this House which sat last year, and had pointed to a recommendation, as he called it, that appeared to indicate that one of the solutions, if not the proper solution, was to have some system of leasing. He wished to point out that this suggestion was not made the subject of any definite recommendation. The Committee of last year brought up a Report which recommended that the powers of supply should be entrusted to the London County Council. That Report when it was drafted had no reference whatever to any question of leasing, and it was not until the proposal was made by the hon. Member for Wolver-hampton that Clause 18 was inserted. Clause 18 read thus—
    "In recommending that the County Council should be the authority, the Committee desire to refer to the statement made by Mr. Llewellyn Smith, on behalf of the Board of Trade, which they regard as of great value. The Committee have in view the fact that the County Council, as this authority, may exercise its powers in more than one way."
    458
    And then they set out the three ways in which the County Council might exercise its powers, namely—
    "It might undertake the whole work, providing every authorised distributor and every private consumer with electricity in bulk at a maximum scale of prices; it might retain for itself one part of the undertaking, while permitting a private enterprise to undertake another part; or it might lease for a substantial consideration the whole enterprise to a private enterprise, to resume possession of it when its initial stages are over; and the Committee add that they are of opinion that the Report of the finance committee of the County Council renders desirable a careful consideration of alternative scheme."
    That was based evidently on the statement made on behalf of the Board of Trade, and if hon. Members would look at the evidence that was given before that Committee they would find that Mr. Llewellyn Smith, speaking on behalf of the Board of Trade said—
    "I desire to avoid expressing any general opinion of the Board of Trade on this very controversial question of the comparative advantages of public and private management. If it were possible to arrive at some scheme which would combine the advantages of public control with the elasticity and initiative of private enterprise you would have found the ideal solution of a very difficult problem, but that is not one upon which I am here to give any opinion."
    He ventured to submit that the question of leasing as against working had never really been considered by any Committee of the House, and that Members of the Committee who reported last year would themselves be the first to say that the proposals now before the House were not put forward in accordance with any recommendation they made. Although the Instruction which he had placed on the Paper could not be moved, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade would consider very carefully whether he was going to force them to have a private company thrust upon the ratepayers of London without any opportunity of the House considering the terms and conditions.
    MR. J. WARDsaid that as a new Member of the House he viewed with pleasure and admiration, and with some amount of jealousy, the special pleading of the hon. Member for Dulwich; but he thought Members both young and old would agree that they never anticipated that the President

    459
    of the Board of Trade would run the hon. Gentleman such a race, especially in face of some previous discussions that had taken place in the House in regard to this particular subject. He had no intention of making quotations from some of the speeches delivered by the right hon. Gentleman, but if he did so it would show how easy it was to answer the foremost of our statesmen, no matter to which Party they belonged, by their own previous statements. This was not the Bill of the London County Council that they were considering. They were bound, whatever might be said by the President of the Board of Trade, to read into its clauses the expressed and published intentions of its present promoters. It was utterly absurd to pretend that if the Bill as it stood were sent to a Committee, as was suggested by the President of the Board of Trade, the present County Council would accept it as a solution of this particular problem. They were going considerably to modify some of its clauses, and some of its principles they had expressed their intention of entirely removing. What was intended to be a subsidiary sub-section of the Bill was now to be made its main feature. The right hon. Gentleman would have been much better advised if he had suggested to the House that, as this was not the Bill of the present promoters, it would be much more reasonable and much more intelligent to refer the Bill back to them so as to enable them to bring up next year a measure based on their proposals—[Cries of "Divide, divide"]—because it was quite clear that the present proposals were not theirs at all. They had heard from the hon. Member for the City of London and others the absolute necessity of preventing snatch legislation. They had been repeatedly told that it was always advisable when there was a sudden change in public opinion that another opportunity should be given to the doctorate to come to a decision on the now policy. He suggested, therefore, that they were only taking what was usually termed a reasonable position—a conservative position—when they asked the House to reject a Bill which was repudiated by its original promoters and was now promoted by those who intended to alter its character entirely.
    460
    And, it being Eleven of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
    Debate to be resumed upon Monday next, at a quarter past Eight of the clock.

    ADMINISTRATIVE COUNTY OF LONDON AND DISTRICT ELECTRIC POWER BILL [BY ORDER].
    Order for Second Reading read and discharged, Bill withdrawn.

    SUPPLY (CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES).
    Postponed Proceeding on Motion made on consideration of Question, "That a sum, not exceeding £11,117,751, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1908, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office, including Telegraphs."
    Which Motion was, "That Item A be reduced by £100,"—(Mr. Annan Bryce.)—resumed.
    Question again proposed, "That Item A be reduced by £100."
    And, it being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

    POLITICAL PENSIONS BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee).
    Clause 1:—
    And, it being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday, 3rd June.
    Adjourned at six minutes after Eleven o'clock.