Sitting of 11 June 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Manchester Ship Canal (Various Powers) Bill [Lords]. —As amended, considered, to be read the third time.
Keswick Urban District Council (Water) Bill (by Order). —Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed on consideration of Lords Amendments (10th June), "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the Amendment, in page 2, line 7, to leave out 'water.'"
Question again proposed.
Question put, and agreed to.
Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.
Ashton-under-Lyne, Stalybridge, and Dukinfield (District) Waterworks Bill [Lords] (by Order); General Accident Fire and Life Assurance Corporation, Limited, Bill [Lords] (by Order); Harrison's Patent Bill [Lords] (by Order); Heywood and Middleton Water Board Bill [Lords] (by Order); Murphy Grimshaw's Divorce (Validation) Bill [Lords] (by Order); Ocean Accident and Guarantee Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order); Pontypridd Urban District Council Bill [Lords] (by Order); Selsey Water Bill | Lords] (by Order). —Read a second time, and committed.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. —Read the third time, and passed.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 15) Bill. —Read a second time, and committed.
Clyde Navigation Provisional Order Confirmation Bill (by Order). —Considered; to be read the third time upon Thursday.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to: —Oregon Mortgage Company, Limited, Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment;
South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill;
Shanklin Gas Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, ''An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Aston Manor (extension to Erdington), Chesham (Amendment), Hipperholme (Amendment), Lytham, Newark (Amendment), Penrith (Amendment), Pontefract, and Stockport (Amendment)." [Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill [Lords.
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate and confer powers upon the Natural Trust for Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty." [National Trust for Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for empowering the Corporation of the county borough of Birkenhead to obtain a supply of water from the Rivers Alwen and Brenig in the county of Denbigh; and for other purposes." [Birkenhead Corporation Water Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled "An Act to authorise the Corporation of the City of Glasgow to construct new tramways and a storm-water overflow; to extend the period for the construction of sewage works and the acquisition of properties; to make provision with reference to the testing of the illuminating power of the gas supply, the stand-by supply of electrical energy, the police courts, the sale of coal, weights and measures, the filling up of casual vacancies in the Corporation, the meetings of the Corporation, the notification of births, the representation of the Corporation in the Convention of Royal Burghs of Scotland, the borrowing of further moneys for the tramways and the sewage undertakings of the Corporation; and for other purposes." [Glasgow Corporation Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Corporation of the City of Sheffield to construct additional tramways and to execute certain street widenings; to confer on the Corporation further powers with respect to their water undertaking, their markets undertaking, and their electrical undertaking; to make further provisions with respect to the regulation of traffic and sanitary matters in the city; and for other purposes." [Sheffield Corporation Bill [Lords.]
And, also a Bill, intituled, "An Act for transferring to the Electric Supply Corporation, Limited, certain undertakings authorised under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888; and for other purposes." [Electric Supply Corporation Bill [Lords.]
National Trust for Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty Bill [Lords]; Birkenhead Corporation Water Bill [Lords]; Glasgow Corporation Bill [Lords]; Sheffield Corporation Bill [Lords]; Electric Supply Corporation Bill [Lords]. —Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Electric lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill [Lords]. —Read the first time; Referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 230.]

PETITIONS.
  ADVERTISEMENTS REGULATION BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  BUILDING LANDS (SCOTLAND) BILL
  Petition from Haddington, against to lie upon the Table.
  BUTTER AND MARGARINE BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  CHARACTER NOTE BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, against; to lie upon the Table.
  COMPANIES BILL [LORDS].
  Petition from Edinburgh, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, against; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: From Haddington; and, Prestonpans; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SPECIAL RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION BILL.)
  Petitions against: From Saint Andrew's; and, Southport; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SPECIAL RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION) BILL.
  Petition from Stepney, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  FEUS AND BUILDING LEASES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, against; to lie upon the Table.
  HOME WORK BILL.
  Petition from Govan, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING ACTS.
  Petitions for alteration of Law: From Birkdale; and, Bolton; to lie upon the Table.
  LIMITED PARTNERSHIPS BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  OPEN SPACES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PAROCHIAL MEDICAL OFFICERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PATENTS AND DESIGNS BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PAUPER LUNATICS (COST OF MAINTENANCE).
  Petition from Richmond, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  POLICE SUPERANNUATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Govan, against; to lie upon the Table.
  POLICE SUPERANNUATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PROBATION OF OFFENDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, against; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC HEALTH (REGULATIONS AS TO FOOD) BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  RAILWAYS (CONTRACTS) BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  RIGHTS OF WAY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, against; to lie upon the Table.
  RIGHTS OF WAY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Haddington, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY.
  Petition from Matlock, for prohibition; to lie upon the Table.
  SHOPS (No. 2) BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, against; to lie upon the Table.
  TROUT FISHING.
  Petition from Stonehouse, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  WEEKLY REST DAY BILL.
  Petition from London, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING (TONNAGE DEDUCTION FOR PROPELLING POWER) BILL.
  Petition of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, against, praying to be heard by counsel; referred to the Select Committee on the Bill.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  Copy presented, of Return of Advances made under The Irish Land Act, 1903, during the month of December, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  DOGS REGULATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1865.
  Account presented, of the Receipts and Expenditure under the Act for the year 1906 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 186.]
  FINES, ETC. (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Abstract of Accounts of Fines accounted for by the Registrar of Petty Sessions Clerks for 1905 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 187.]
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented, of Report] No. 522 (Falkland Islands, Annual Report for 1906) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) (VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS).
  Copy ordered, "of General Introduction to the Return (H.C. 178, 1906) made in compliance with an Order of the House of Commons, dated the 23rd clay of February, 1906, together with appendices, tabular summaries, a list of additions and corrections, and a key to the symbols used in the Return"—(MR. McKenna.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES,

  Hunslet Union Education Rule.
  MR. LANE-FOX: To ask the President
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  of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the West Riding County Council have made a demand for payment by the guardians of the Hunslet Union of the cost of the education at public elementary schools of children maintained by the guardians, and that, although the Hunslet Union is situate in two administrative counties, the institutions in which such children are maintained are entirely within the West Riding area, and the rates paid by the guardians for education purposes in respect of such buildings is equivalent to £1 18s. 6d. per annum for each child attending school; and whether, seeing that the net cost to the council of the education of such children during the last three years has only been £1 4s. 3d. per head per annum, he is prepared, in view of his reply to the hon. Member for Hackney on 14th May, 1907, † to take any steps in the matter.
  (Answered by MR. McKenna.) I have received no official intimation of the incidents in question. In the event of the children referred to being excluded, or threatened with exclusion, from school owing to the refusal of the guardians to pay the contributions demanded of them, the Board may be called upon to determine whether such exclusion is reasonable. Such decision could only be given after full consideration of the circumstances of the case, and after hearing the statements of both parties.

  Resale of Grazing Lands.
  MR. GINNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when a purchaser owing a balance of annuities under one of the Purchase Acts prior to 1903 desires to sell his interest in a non-residential grass farm in a district in which it is much needed for distribution, are the Irish Land Commission willing, by a particular exercise of their present statutory powers, to sell the farm to the Estates Commissioners with the consent of the partial purchaser, who would then receive a bonus under the Land Act of 1903.
  (Answered by MR. Birrell.) In the circumstances stated in the Question
  ߤ See(4) Debates, clxxiv, 795-6.

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  the Land Commission have no power to sell the holding to the Estates Commissioners.

  Poor Law Valuation of Connaught.
  DR. AMBROSE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will give the average Poor Law valuation per head of population in the province of Connaught; and will he state the highest valuation and the lowest per head, giving, if

  Rateable valuation, 1907.

  Population, Census of 1901.

  Average valuation per head of population.

  £

  £

  s.

  d.

  Province of Connaught

  1,457,476

  646,932

  2

  5

  1

  Roscommon Union

  64,848

  15,164

  4

  5

  6

  Belmullet Union

  10,973

  13,845

  -

  15

  10

  Treatment of Travelling Gipsies.
  MR. TREVELYAN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Swiss Department of Justice and Police has made any advances with a view to arriving at an international understanding about the treatment of travelling bands of gipsies.
  (Answered by MR. Secretary Gladstone.) I have no information to the effect suggested, and I am informed by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that he has not received from the Swiss Government any proposals to that end.

  Approaches to Houses of Parliament.
  MR. HERBERT: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis construe the Order of this House to keep the passages through the streets leading to this House free and open as applying only to the approach to this House from Parliament Street; and if he will give instructions that the approach to the House from the Embankment be kept open, and the passage of Members approaching from that direction be no longer hindered by the traffic.
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  possible, the unions and parishes which contain the lowest, and what their valuation per head is
  (Answered by MR. Runciman.) There is no information available of tie kind required by the hon. Member in respect of parishes, but the other figures asked for by him are given below. The union with the highest valuation per head of population in Connaught is Roscommon, and with the lowest Belmullet
  (Answered by MR. Secretary Gladstone.) The Commissioner of Police does not so construe the Order, but endeavours to keep all approaches to the House open for Members.

  School Teachers.
  MR. GEORGE WHITE: To ask the President of the Board of Education if he can state the total number of trained teachers at present employed in Church of England, Catholic, Wesleyan, and Council schools respectively; what number of persons were entitled to enter training colleges as the result of the last King's Scholarship examination; and what was the number of places available for them in Church, Catholic, Wesleyan, and undenominational colleges respectively.
  MR. SILCOCK: To ask the President of the Board of Education if he can state how many candidates became qualified for admission to training colleges during the years 1905 and 1906 respectively; how many students actually obtained admission to a training college in each of those years; how many of those students were admitted to denominational colleges and how many to undenominational; and what aid is now afforded from the Exchequer towards the building and maintenance of training colleges.
  (Answered by MR. McKenna.) Number of "trained" teachers employed in Church, Wesleyan, Roman Catholic, and

  Church of England.

  Wesleyan.

  Roman Catholic.

  Council.

  Men.

  Women.

  Men.

  Women.

  Men.

  Women.

  Men.

  Women.

  England

  5,912

  5,493

  369

  164

  406

  1,483

  11,486

  15,359

  Wales

  344

  165

  —

  —

  4

  52

  1,459

  988

  Total, England and Wales -

  6,256

  5,658

  369

  164

  410

  1,535

  12,945

  16,347

  Number of candidates who became qualified for admission to a Training College by the King's Scholarship Examination in the following years: —

  Number of Two-year and Three-year Students admitted in the following years.

  1905.

  1906.

  Number admitted on King's Scholarship qualification.

  Number admitted on other qualifications.

  Number admitted on King's Scholarship qualification.

  Number admitted on other qualifications.

  Men.

  Women.

  Men.

  Women.

  Men.

  Women.

  Men.

  Women.

  Residential colleges:

  Church of England

  545

  1,052

  56

  60

  536

  1,102

  62

  112

  Wesleyan

  54

  49

  13

  8

  54

  66

  9

  8

  Roman Catholic

  44

  188

  5

  36

  39

  232

  13

  41

  Undenominational

  85

  357

  12

  59

  51

  491

  54

  103

  Day Colleges:

  Undenominational

  251

  496

  323

  307

  270

  717

  325

  319

  Total

  979

  2,142

  409

  470

  950

  2,608

  463

  583

  Council Schools on the last day of the School Years ending within the Statistical Year ended 31st July, 1906 —

  Men.

  Women.

  1905

  2,245

  9,242

  1906

  2,271

  10,664

  It has not been thought necessary to include one-year students or certificated students, as the numbers are small and the conditions of admission are slightly different. The Upper Norwood Blind Training College has not been included. The number of students who enter training colleges in any given year under the King's Scholarship examination includes a small proportion who pass their entrance examination in previous years. The students who entered under examinations other than the King's Scholarship include some who had also passed the King's Scholarship Examination. Subject to compliance with the regulations, building grants are now made by the Board to local education authorities to an amount not exceeding 75 per cent. in respect of all capital expenditure incurred by them for the provision of sites and buildings for training colleges, whether day or residential. Grants to the amount of £3 per place provided or 75 per cent. of the rent, whichever is the less, are also made in aid of renting temporary premises, where the Board are satisfied that it is inexpedient or impracticable at once to provide permanent premises. Grants for the maintenance of training colleges and hostels are as follows: £

  (a) For each recognised student, other than a day student of a residential college, a grant to the college of £53 (men) or £38 (women).

  (b) For each recognised day student of a residential or day college: —

  (i.) A grant of £13 to the college; and either

  (ii.) Where the student is resident in a hostel, a grant of £40 (men) or £25 (women) to the hostel; or

  (iii.) Where the student is not resident in a hostel a grant of £25 (men) or £20(women) to the student, this grant being paid through the authorities of the college.

  Discussion of Scottish Estimates.
  MR. MORTON: To ask the Prime Minister, seeing that only three out of twelve Scottish Votes have been discussed, will arrangements be made to give an additional day for the discussion of outstanding Scottish Votes.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Banner-man.) I doubt if it will be possible to find any more time for Scottish Estimates.

  Proficiency Pay for Army Schoolmasters.
  MR. NIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, while the substitution of proficiency pay for service pay may not cause hardship or monetary loss to service men serving in any corps (whether departmental or otherwise), the change will seriously affect non-combatants, e.g., Army schoolmasters, and to the extent of nearly £11 per annum; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of so amending his proposals as to obviate this loss.
  (Answered by MR. Secretary Haldane.) The Army schoolmasters are in the same position as other corps ineligible for proficiency pay. Their ordinary rates of pay include remuneration for technical qualifications, and men appointed to the corps or contracting for a new term of service after 1st October, 1906, will not draw either service or proficiency pay. All vested rights have, however, been scrupulously respected.

  Ordnance Survey,Ireland —Military Superintendents deprived of their Sections.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can state the number of military superintendents in the Ordnance Survey, Ireland, that have been deprived of the charge of sections during the past twelve months; and if he can state the number of confidential reports made by each of such superintendents for the previous six months respecting the civilian employees under their charge.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) Two military superintendents of field parties in Ireland were deprived of their charge for inefficiency during the last twelve months. One of them had no civil employees under his charge during the previous six months, and the other made only one confidential report during that period.

  Local Control of Irish Ordnance Survey.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can state whether it was contemplated that after a period of five years from the 1st January, 1908, the Irish Ordnance Survey should be placed under local control; and whether the Irish branch of this service is directed by the Valuation Commissioners to meet their requirements from time to time.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) No such change as my hon. friend suggests is in contemplation. The Commissioner of Valuation is constantly in communication with the Survey officers, and suitable arrangements are made to meet his requirements.

  Sheep Dipping.
  MR. RENDALL: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what, having regard to Sheep Dipping Order of 1907, a person or owner of sheep must do when driving sheep through unfenced fields or commons in which there is a public road or thorough-fare (and other sheep are grazing in such fields or commons) in the event of sheep belonging to different owners becoming mixed with each other; whether both lots of sheep must be left together on the land in which they got mixed for ten days and be dipped previous to removal; and whether both parties will be deemed guilty of an offence under the Order if either party should remove such sheep previous to the time stated in the order.
  MR. RENDALL: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, how, having regard to the Sheep Dipping Order of 1907, farmers or dealers are to manage when sending sheep a long distance to a fair, market, sale, or otherwise, by the highway, if they cannot rest them and have them fed on some person's land or premises; whether they are compelled to keep them for several days on the highway without proper food and comfort, or, if the sheep are give rest on any premises
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  or fields, must they be detained ten days and dipped previous to removal; whether the owner of the laud or premises must give notice to the local authority previous to such removal, and in the event of non-compliance are both parties liable under the Act of 1894, especially having regard to the fact that the exemptions given in the Order only apply to sheep moved by railway without being untrucked within the area and those for exhibition.
  MR. RENDALL: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what is to happen if sheep belonging to neighbours trespass and accidentally get together; whether both lots of sheep must be dipped previous to those trespassing being restored to the rightful owner; and, if not, whether both parties are liable under the Dipping Order of 1907.
  MR. RENDALL: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, under the Sheep Dipping Order of 1907, no one can take sheep from a farm to a washpool which may be on another farm without being liable to proceedings under the Order.
  MR. RENDALL: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, having regard to the hardships inflicted on dealers, farmers, and butchers, through there not being sufficient and proper exemptions provided by the Sheep Dipping Order of 1907, and through the difficulty of interpreting it, he will have the Order amended, or cause to be prepared and supplied gratis to those interested, an explanatory treatise on the Order.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) It will be convenient for me to reply at the same time to this and the four succeeding Questions standing in the name of my hon. friend. It was necessary, in order to secure the general dipping of sheep in the area to which the Sheep Dipping (England) Order applies, that provision should be made for preventing so far as is practicable the contact of

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  dipped with undipped sheep; but whether in any particular instance such contact will necessitate any further dipping, or expose an owner to legal proceedings, must depend upon the circumstances of the particular case. This, in the first instance, is a matter for the consideration of the local authority concerned. The Board do not consider that the temporary detention for rest and feeding of sheep which are being moved by road is in itself to be regarded as involving the requirements of dipping. The Order expressly provides for the movement of sheep from a place of detention for the purpose of dipping, and it empowers local authorities to grant exemptions from the dipping requirements where the circumstances render it impracticable or inexpedient to enforce them. It rests with the local authorities to enforce the Order and to make its requirements known to those concerned, and full information has been supplied to those authorities for the purpose of enabling them to discharge their duties in this respect

  Postal Delays at Rockchapel, County Cork.
  MR. FLYNN: To ask the Postmaster-General, in reference to the complaints concerning irregular delivery of mails at Rockchapel, county Cork, whether the postal authorities are aware that on 31st ultimo the mails were one hour and ten minutes late, and on the 1st instant one hour and thirty-five minutes late; and whether steps will be taken to ensure punctual delivery in future.
  (Answered by MR. Sydney Buxton.) On the 31st ultimo the mails were forty minutes late in reaching Rockchapel, the delay being caused partly by the late arrival of the train at Abbeyfeals, and partly by an accident to the post-man's bicycle. On the 1st instant the delay was one hour and twenty minutes, and was due to the work on that occasion being exceptionally heavy. The hon. Member may be assured that I will take steps to secure as far as possible the punctuality of the service to Rockchapel.

  Women Sanitary Inspectors.
  DR. COOPER: To ask the President of the Local
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  Government Board whether he can state. how many women have passed during, the last ten years the examination required to qualify for a sanitary inspector; and how many sanitary authorities have appointed a female sanitary inspector on their staff.
  (Answered by MR. John Burns.) It is only in London that a sanitary inspector is required by law to be the holder of a certificate granted by a body approved by the Local Government Board to the effect that he has by examination shown himself competent for such office. I understand that the number of women who have passed the qualifying examination during the ten years ended 31st December last, is about 216, and that the number of metropolitan borough councils who have appointed one or more female sanitary inspectors is twenty-two.

  Printing of Maps for Irish Congested Districts Board in Ireland.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state why the maps for the Congested Districts Board Commission are not being printed in Ireland; and whether there has been any delay in having this Irish work carried out at Southampton.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question. The maps referred to involved colour printing, for which no-arrangements exist in Ireland, and they were therefore printed at Southampton. There was a slight delay in the case of one of the maps, as the only machines avail- able for the purpose were being occupied with a more urgent order from another Department, but this was in no way due to the maps being printed at Southampton rather than in Dublin.

  Extra Police at Kanturk.
  MR. FLYNN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that for the past two years three policemen have been stationed in an outhouse on the farm of MR. Patrick O'Brien, Melchera, Kanturk, county Cork; if he can say on what district does the charge for these extra police fall; is

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  the Inspector General of Constabulary aware that this farmer, who is not unpopular, attends to his ordinary business at fairs and markets unattended by any policemen; and, if so, whether, in view of the peaceable condition of the Kanturk district, where the Recorder was quite recently presented with white gloves as a mark of the crimelessness of the locality, these extra policemen will be withdrawn from this unnecessary duty.
  (Answered by MR. Birrell.) It is the fact that for the past two years three policemen have been stationed on MR. O'Brien's farm in order to provide for his protection. No charge is made upon local authorities in respect of these men. The condition of the district of Kanturk generally has of late much improved, but, in the opinion of the police authorities, it is still necessary to afford police protection to MR. O'Brien.

  Irish Evicted Tenants—Application of MR. O'Rourke.
  MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement from an evicted tenant named O'Rourke, residing at Kilbaylet, county Wicklow; and, if so, whether any steps are being taken to reinstate him or to provide him with a farm.
  (Answered by MR. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners cannot trace the receipt of an application from the person named. If further particulars of the application should be given a further search will be made.

  Gambling in Wheat.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that owing to the international gambling operations in options and futures of American wheat its price has already advanced in about three weeks some 20 to 30 cents; that this has caused a rise in all cereals and food stuffs, and that in consequence the price of flour in most parts of the United Kingdom has already been advanced from 3s. to 5s. per sack, and that the 41b. loaf has also been advanced from ½d. to 1d.; and, if so, what steps does His
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  Majesty's Government intend to take in order to safeguard the masses of this country in the future, especially in case of war, from advances in the prime necessities of life caused by these international gambling operations in fictitious food stuffs through option and future contracts.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Banner-man.) His Majesty's Government are not prepared to take action in this matter.

  H.M.S. Andromeda.
  MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON: I beg to ask the. Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the date on which H.M.S. "Andromeda" last went to sea since the naval manoeuvres of last year, viz., 1906
  *THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. LAMBERT, Devonshire, South Molton): The 28th May.

  Closing of Coastguard Stations.
  MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state the number of coastguard stations that have been closed since the commencement of this year, and the number of men who have been reduced or dismissed in consequence of the closing of these coastguard stations.
  *MR. LAMBERT: Three stations and seven detachments have been closed since the commencement of the year. Those changes affected thirty-two men, who have all been transferred to fill vacancies at other stations caused by normal wastage. No men have been dismissed in consequence of the closing of any coastguard stations.
  MAJOR SEELY: Which are the three stations that have been closed, in view of the promise given by the Secretary to the Admiralty that no station should be closed until the question had been fully discussed in this House?
  *MR. LAMBERT: I must ask for notice of the Question.

  Life-Saving Apparatus on the Coast.
  MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what provision he proposes to make to insure the maintenance of the old standard and the old numbers of life-saving apparatus along the coasts of Great Britain and Ireland which have been depleted by reason of the reduction of coastguard stations and coastguardsmen.
  *MR. LAMBERT: The number of life-saving stations will not be affected by any reduction in the number of coastguard stations and coastguardsmen.
  MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSON: Has any provision been made for maintaining the standard at the places where coastguard stations have been closed?
  *MR. LAMBERT: Notice has been given to the Board of Trade, which is the Department concerned.

  Provision for aged Government Dockyard Employees.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what steps, if any, have been taken to provide old-age pensions for the aged employees of his Department at Deptford, Chatham, Greenwich, and Portsmouth, in accordance with the Resolution adopted by the House of Commons on 6th March, 1893.
  *MR. LAMBERT: The Resolution referred to did not require the Admiralty to provide old-age pensions for aged employees, nor was it limited to the four establishments mentioned. I may odd that since the date of the Resolution the hours of labour have been reduced, wages have been generally increased, notably during the last year, and insurance against accident has been provided by the Government scheme, which is more favourable to the workmen than the Workmen's Compensation Act.

  Destroyers fit for sea.
  *CAPTAIN FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what percentage of destroyers would be available to put to sea within twenty-four hours of the declaration of war.
  *MR. LAMBERT: It is not in the public interest to answer a question of this character.
  *CAPTAIN FABER: Is it not the fact that only seventy out of 120 destroyers would be fit for sea?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  H.M.S. "Wear."
  *CAPTAIN FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state why there were no three-sixteenth inch plates available at Portsmouth with which to repair the torpedo destroyer "Wear," on the occasion of her collision with the "Etna'' merchant ship.
  *MR. LAMBERT: It had not hitherto been thought necessary to keep a reserve of these plates. Steps are now being taken to secure an adequate reserve.
  *CAPTAIN FABERasked how long the ship was kept in port in consequence.
  *MR. LAMBERTasked for notice of the Question.

  Sale of War Office Land at Dumbartonshire.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland what was the valuation for rating before the sale took place of the 52 acres at Kilcreggan, Dumbartonshire, sold to the War Office, or, if they were not separately valued, what were the valuation and area of the farm of which they formed part; and what are now the valuations for rating of that area of 52 acres and of the rest of that farm respectively.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington): The valuation of 52 acres at Kilcreggan sold to the War Department was, prior to sale, £60; the present ex gratia contribution to rates remains on £60 basis. The original valuation of the entire farm—470 acres, including eight cottages—was £162. The present valuation of the remaining portion is £102, including eight cottages.

  Warrant Officers' Pensions.
  *MR. WHITEHEAD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the

  1217
  regulation which prevents a warrant officer from commuting any part of his pension before the age of fifty-five puts him at a disadvantage as compared with commissioned and non-commissioned officers; and whether, having regard to the increasing difficulty of elderly men in finding employment and the fact that a little capital might afford a warrant officer a means to a livelihood, he can see his way to give to them an opportunity for commutation similar to that now enjoyed either by non-commissioned or by commissioned officers.
  MR. HALDANE: This matter, which is by no means free from difficulty, is now receiving careful consideration.

  Plague in India.
  DR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether ho has yet received answers to his questions addressed to the Government of India relating to the numbers of medical men engaged in combating the plague.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. MORLEY, Montrose Burghs): I have not yet received the return. The figures may take some little time to collect.
  DR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will give the House the weekly Returns of death from plague during May for each province in India.
  MR. MORLEY: The deaths returned for the weeks ending 4th, 11th and 18th May respectively are for all India 77,772, 82,400 and 67,512. Later figures have not yet been received. I shall be very willing to communicate the provincial Returns for those weeks to the hon. Member, or to place them in the Library.

  The Unrest in India.
  MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the statement of the Government advocate, MR. Alweyne Turner, in opposing the application for bail of the five barristers arrested as a result of the Rawal Pindi riots, that the extracts from the speeches of the accused were not taken down verbatim, by a shorthand
  1218
  writer on the spot, but were written afterwards from memory; and, if so, what steps will be taken to assure the public in this country and in India that, in this and other cases of like character, prosecution will be based upon evidence of a more definite and accurate nature.
  MR. MORLEY: I am aware that the speeches made at meetings of this kind in India have not hitherto been taken down by shorthand writers. It is one of the objects of the Regulation of Meetings Ordinance, issued by the Governor-General on the 11th May, to obtain a more authentic report of the proceedings at such meetings in future.
  MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the agitation in which Lala Rajpat Rai was engaged was totally different in character from that to which Ajit Singh devoted his services; whether his attention has been drawn to the article written by Rajpat Rai two hours before his arrest, stating the grounds upon which the agitation was based; whether in any meetings a shorthand writer was present to report speeches made by Rajpat Rai; and upon what evidence, definite or otherwise, his arrest and deportation was ordered.
  MR. MORLEY: The Answer to the first and third Questions is in the negative: that to the second in the affirmative: as to the fourth, I must refer my hon. friend to the statement I made in this House on Thursday last.
  SIR H. COTTON: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information in his hands to confirm the statement he made last Thursday to the effect that the speeches of Rajpat Rai were very greatly dominated by sedition, and that they were published broadcast, even on the floor of this House.
  MR. MORLEY: I must really ask my hon. friend to accept it from me that I am very unlikely to make statements on the floor of this House without having provided myself with fair and reasonable confirmation.
  SIR H. COTTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman lay the facts of the case on the Table of the House?
  MR. MORLEY: I think anything more injudicious from the point of view of Government and of law and order than that which the hon. Gentleman suggests cannot be imagined.
  MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the first detailed Report on the Comilla riots, and the subsequent Report and explanations called for by the local Government, are yet in hand; and, if so, will the Reports and Correspondence be laid upon the Table of the House, and when.
  MR. MORLEY: I have received the first detailed Report of the local Government on the disturbance at Comilla, but not the further Report. As I stated last Thursday, the disturbances resulted in several cases which were tried in open Court, and the proceedings were published in the newspapers. I do not, therefore, consider it necessary to lay any Papers on the Table.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether it is the intention of the Indian Government at any time to formulate a definite legal charge against Lala Rajpat Rai and Ajit Singh, and to give them an opportunity of meeting the charge in a Court of justice; and, if not, for what length of time it is proposed to keep them in banishment and confinement.
  MR. MORLEY: I am unable at present to make any statement as to the intentions of the Government of India in respect of the matters referred to in the Question.
  MR. MACKARNESS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to make any statement?
  MR. MORLEY: No, I am afraid I cannot.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, under Section 527 of the Indian Code of Criminal Procedure, the Governor-General in Council has power to direct the transfer of any particular criminal case from one High Court to another; and, if so, whether it is possible for the Government of India, by making use of this
  1220
  provision, to have Lala Rajpat Rai and Ajit Singh tried for their alleged offences without any danger to public law and order.
  MR. MORLEY: The section referred to confers the power to transfer cases mentioned in the Question. I have already explained why it is not thought advisable to have Lala Rajpat Rai and Ajit Singh brought to trial, and I do not consider that these reasons would be less valid if the trial were held in any other part of India.

  Punjab Land Revenue.
  MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can state how much of the 150 per cent. increase in the total land revenue of the Punjab from £636,229 in 1855 to £1,604,609 in 1905 has been obtained from lands brought under canal irrigation since 1855.
  MR. MORLEY: The hon. Member has not noticed the fact that the increase in land revenue in the Punjab, between 1855 and 1905, is partly due to a transfer of territory from the North-Western Provinces to the Punjab. Allowing for this, the increase is not 150 per cent., but about 40 per cent. But it is impossible to say with any approach to accuracy how much of this increase is obtained from lands brought under irrigation since 1855. During the last thirty years alone the area irrigated from permanent State canals has increased six fold, or from 750,000 to 4,500,000 acres.
  MR. HUNT: I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman if the produce grown by the poor Indian peasant is taxed 50 per cent., while manufactured goods and luxuries for the rich get off free?
  *MR. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.

  Chenab Canal.
  MR. C. J. O'DONNELE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the net profit on the £1,836,075 capital of the Chenab Canal, near which the new Colonies affected by the Colonisation Bill are chiefly situated, was, exclusive of land revenue, £399,214,

  1221
  or 21·76 per centum in last financial year; and whether he will direct a reduction of the water rates.
  MR. MORLEY: The water rates on the Chenab Canal are not higher than the rates levied on other large canals in the Punjab, and, judging from the demand for land in the colony and its high selling value, the rates appear to be considered moderate by the cultivators. The reason why the Chenab Canal is an exceptionally profitable undertaking is that the area irrigated by it is very large and the supply of water abundant; but the fact that the profits are large is not in itself a sufficient reason for a reduction of rates.
  MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: Is it not a fact that the total amount charged on the land in the Punjab is now four times what it was fifty years ago?
  MR. MORLEY: I am afraid I have not the figures here.

  Zulu Prisoners at St. Helena.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY (St. Andrews Burghs): I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give any information as to the number, rank, and colour of the warders who are to form the guard of the penal settlement at St. Helena.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N. W): I understand that the Government of Natal is sending two European warders with the prisoners. The Governor of St. Helena will engage locally any extra warders required.

  Intoxicating Liquors in the New Hebrides.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now announce the result of his inquiries into the alleged importation of intoxicating liquors into the New Hebrides.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State communicated with MR. Deakin, who stated that the Proclamation mentioned in the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member on the 23rd April prohibits the exportation of intoxi-
  1222
  cating liquors from any port in Australia to the New Hebrides, except under such conditions as will ensure their being for the legitimate use of white settlers only, and in moderate quantities; and that the Customs officials in Australia have been fully instructed to that effect. It was possible, however, that liquor might be taken to New Caledonia from Europe via Australian ports, ultimately for the New Hebrides, and in that case it could not be reached by the Proclamation of the Commonwealth Government. MR. Deakin has promised to cause inquiries to be made into the matter on his return to Australia.

  St. Helena—Assisted Emigration.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what decision has now been come to as to future measures in the direction of assisted emigration for the inhabitants of St. Helena.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No decision has been taken as to future measures, but 100 men have been engaged for mining work in the Cape Colony and left the island on the 21st of May.

  The Transvaal Loan.
  *CAPTAIN FABER: I beg to ask the Primo Minister whether he can state at what rate of interest the loan lately promised to General Botha for the Transvaal will be issued; and whether it is proposed that the issue of this loan shall be before or after the repatriation of the Chinese coolies.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The terms of issue of the proposed loan will be made known in due course. The repatriation of Chinese coolies will begin shortly, and will probably be in progress before any part of the loan is issued.
  *CAPTAIN FABER:Is this loan guaranteed by the British Government?
  MR. CHURCHILL: An announcement has already been made that when, and if, a loan of this character has passed the Transvaal Legislature, His Majesty's Government are not opposed in principle to giving the necessary guarantee which has been asked for.
  *CAPTAIN FABER: Why should this loan be issued more cheaply than the Cape Colony loan?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I have not discussed at all the question of the price.
  CAPTAIN FABER: It must be if it is guaranteed.
  *MR. GEORGE FABERasked whether, considering the collapse in Consols, the disorganised state of the stock markets, and the impossibility of further issuing the Irish loan except at a disastrous figure, and considering further—
  *MR. SPEAKER: That Question seems to me to be in the nature of a series of arguments.
  *MR. GEORGE FABER: I was leading up to a conclusion; I would ask whether the Prime Minister will consider the advisability of deferring the issue of this loan till a more favourable time?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN:The usual preface to a Question of that sort is "arising out of that," but I do not see that the Question arises out of the Answer, or any other Answer.
  *MR. GEORGE FABER: It arises very much out of it.
  MR. HUNT: May I ask the Prime Minister whether the Transvaal Government has promised to send back any of the Chinese at the end of their three years contracts?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: That is another conundrum that does not appear to arise out of the Question.

  New Hebrides Convention.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what were the terms of reference to the Anglo-French Commission which has been recently considering questions arising out of the New Hebrides Convention.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (SIR EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick): The Anglo-French Committee met recently
  1224
  to consider the arrangements for the salaries, leave, etc., of the members of the Joint Court, as provided for in Article 10, Section 4, of the Convention of October last.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: Have the French Government expressed any wish that the terms of the reference shall be kept secret?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: There were no terms of reference. The Committee met simply to deal with Article 10, Section 4, and if the hon. Member will look at that he will see no terms of reference were required.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: Is nothing else to be dealt with by the Committee?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: As far as the Committee is concerned that is the only point they have to deal with. Other matters will be dealt with between the two Governments.

  Germany and the United States Tariff.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government have obtained any official assurance from the United States Government that any modifications of the Dingley tariff in favour of Germany will, under the most favoured-nation clause, be extended to Great Britain.
  I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether representations have been made to the United. States Government with the view of securing to British Chambers of Commerce the same powers for the valuation of exports to the United States as have-been granted to German Chambers of Commerce; and what is the result o such representations.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I have received an official assurance from the United States Government in the following terms: —"The administrative provisions set forth in the commercial agreement between Germany and the United States are intended to be applicable to all countries. The provisions which relate to the accrediting of special agents, their co-operation with Chambers

  1225
  of Commerce and the acceptance of certificates of Chambers of Commerce as to value as competent evidence in terms relate specifically to Germany. The Government of the United States does not, however, wish to make them a basis of discrimination against any other country, and is quite ready to make them applicable to Great Britain, so far as the conditions in that country permit, if the Government of Great Britain so desires." As the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh was informed yesterday, I am in communication with the Board of Trade as to making arrangements to fulfil the conditions required.

  Great Britain and the Dingley Tariff Law.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in view of the announcement by the State Department at Washington that, before admitting Great Britain to any benefits under Section 3 of the Dingley Tariff Law, the President must be satisfied that Great Britain has some advantage to offer constituting true reciprocity, he can state what reciprocal advantage Great Britain has to offer under the present fiscal conditions.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I cannot make any statement at present on this particular point, and must refer the hon. Member to my Answer of to day to the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh.
  MR. BRIDGEMAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if an Anglo-American agreement, under Section 3 of the Dingley Act, was discussed by the Government of the United States six months ago, and has not been taken up since; if so, will he say if the discussion was dropped because the express terms of the Dingley Act require that the President must be satisfied that Great Britain has something to offer to the United States constituting true reciprocity; and if he still entertains any hope of being able, by virtue of the most favoured-nation clause, or otherwise, to secure for Great Britain, in respect of Treasury and Consular rulings, the advantages which Germany has secured.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Answer to the first Question is approximately correct. The Answer to the second is in
  1226
  the negative. The Answer to the third is in the affirmative; it is being given to-day to the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh. The hon. Member is, of course, aware that the administrative changes which have been, or are about to be, made have nothing to do with Section 3 of the United States Tariff Act.

  France and Sierra Leone.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state whether any negotiations are pending with France with reference to the-cession of Sierra Leone and its hinterland in return for the cession of French interests in the New Hebrides.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: As I stated yesterday I had not heard this Question suggested before the statement appeared in the Press the other day, and the Answer is in the negative.

  British Residents' Property in China.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that the Domicile Act of 1861 has not been applied to China, any means exist for protecting the interests of relatives of British subjects dying in China and preventing trouble with the estates of such persons.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The existing means for protecting the estates of British subjects dying in China, and for protecting the interests of the relatives, are as complete as in a British Possession, as, owing to the fact that His Majesty exercises extra-territorial jurisdiction in that country, the estates are administered in the British Courts.

  Great Britain and Russia —Indian Frontier Negotiations.
  MR. J. WARD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what part of the frontiers of the British Empire are now under review or consideration by His Majesty's Government and the Government of Russia.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I am unable to make any statement on this subject at present, but the Questions under discussion are connected with the frontier of India.

  British Fiscal Policy.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the United States Government have expressed their willingness to negotiate with Great Britain with reference to granting special rates on articles imported under the third section of the Dingley Law; and whether, seeing that under our existing fiscal system Great Britain has nothing to offer the United States in exchange for the concessions desired, His Majesty's Government will consider the desirability of placing this country in a position to bargain with the United States for the concession of reciprocal advantages which are enjoyed by other competing countries.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Negotiations are already in progress. The last part of the Question contains a statement which I cannot admit, and a suggestion that a complete change of the fiscal policy of this country should be made in order to secure reductions of duties on such articles as statuary, pictures, etc., which comprise the limited list affected by the Dingley Law referred to: I cannot think this would be a wise course.

  Egyptian Civil Service —Plurality of Appointments.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state the number of individuals in the service of the Egyptian Government who hold more than one Government appointment; if so, how many; on what grounds the plurality of offices is held; and what are the emoluments attaching to each of the posts of such persons.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The only justification for making such an inquiry would be the presumption that some abuse exists I am not aware of any justification for it.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: May I ask how we can ever discover whether abuse exists without making an inquiry?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Unless there were a presumption that abuse exists, I should have thought inquiry unnecessary.

  Egyptian Primary School Curriculum.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that Lord Cromer complains, in his Reports for 1904, pages 72, 73, and 1905, page 86, that private primary schools in Egypt copy the Europeanised curriculum of the Government schools, to the prejudice of vernacular education, and whereas it is only by such imitation that private schools can secure for their pupils certificates enabling them to compete for Government or other employment, he will advise the Egyptian Government to substitute for its present school curriculum a system of teaching and certificates which shall meet the needs at once of the Government service and the Egyptian people.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Egyptian Government are fully alive to the educational needs of the country, and are making every effort to meet them. I consider that no useful purpose would be served by the interference of His Majesty's Government.

  Egyptian Registered Letter Despatches.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the registration fee for letters despatched from Egypt to the United Kingdom is 2 ½d. (one p. t.), whereas that for letters despatched from the United Kingdom to Egypt is only 2d.; what was the number of letters registered in Egypt for transmission to the United Kingdom during the year 1906; is the extra charge retained by the Egyptian Postal Administration, or is it divided, and in what proportions, between the countries through which registered letters from Egypt to the United Kingdom are transmitted; and whether, seeing that the net revenue of the Postal Department for the year 1906 is approximately £E2-40,000, an increase of £E34,000 over the previous year, and is estimated at £E260,000 for 1907, he will advise the Egyptian Government to equalise the rate of postage between the countries above named.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I will inquire as to the facts. Reductions of postage are always welcome, but I cannot promise to ask the Egyptian Government to make a sacrifice of revenue without knowing

  1229
  what other considerations may be involved.

  Egyptian Government School Teachers.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British teachers in Egyptian Government schools and other British officials attached to the Ministry of Public Instruction are required to show any proficiency in speaking, reading, and writing current Egyptian Arabic prior to their appointment; and, if such be the case, how many candidates have so qualified during each of the five years last past; if they be not required so to qualify until after their appointment, what is the period of probation allowed by the regulations, if any; when were such regulations introduced; have they a retroactive effect; how many have passed the tests annually during the last five years; are those who fail allowed to present themselves again and what number of times, and at what intervals; and how many such failures have taken place.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Question of the hon. Member contains seven different questions, some of them of minute detail. I will make a general inquiry as to what knowledge of Arabic is required of the British officials referred to as a condition of their employment, and how this is fulfilled.

  New Hebrides.
  Lord BALCARRES: On behalf of the hon. Member for Darlington, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information to give the House in regard to the New Hebrides Convention; have any fundamental alterations been made in the recent arrangements; and can he state what was the result of the negotiations in regard to Sierra Leone.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Answer to the first and second parts of the Question is in the negative. As I have already stated, the rumours as to negotiations about Sierra Leone are without foundation.

  Egyptian Civil Administration —Salaries and Pensions.
  DR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how
  1230
  many British inspectors of the Slave Trade Repression Department in Egypt have been appointed during the years 1905 and 1906, and at what salaries.
  I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the salaries and what is the rate of pension payable to Native and British Judges respectively, officiating in the Egyptian mixed Courts and in the Native civil and criminal Courts and to the Judges of Mahomedan ecclesiastical Courts; when were the salaries of the Judges of the Native civil and criminal and Mahomedan ecclesiastical Courts fixed; within what period, if at all, and by how much have they been augmented; and upon what system are their pensions calculated.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I will inquire. I have no information at present.

  Taxation on Alcoholic Drinks.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to ask MR. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the present taxation in respect of beer, wine, and spirit duties and licences for the sale of liquors, per head of population, and per gallon of proof alcohol, in the United Kingdom, the States of Massachusetts, New York, and Michigan, respectively.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fife, E.): In the United Kingdom, on an estimated population of 43,643,000, the average taxation in respect of alcoholic drinks, including licences, is approximately 17s. 7d. per head, The alcoholic strength of beer and wine varies considerably, and there are no statistics of the quantities at each degree of strength which would enable the number of gallons of proof alcohol to be given with any accuracy. I have no official statistics which would enable me to give the information asked for with respect to the American States mentioned by the hon. and learned Member.

  Trade Unions and the Post Office Savings Bank.
  MR. BARNES: I beg to ask MR. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has yet had time to consider the question of the limit of deposits of trade unions in the Post Office Savings Bank; and, if so, will ho make a statement on the matter.
  MR. ASQUITH: I am advised that there is no legal obstacle to allowing trade unions the benefit of the Savings Banks (Charitable Societies) Act, 1809, which enables provident institutions and societies to invest their funds in the savings banks without restriction as to amount, with the approval of the National Debt Commissioners and subject to such regulations as they may prescribe. In view of the financial considerations involved, the National Debt Commissioners would hesitate to sanction the deposit of the whole of the large funds in the possession of trade unions. I understand, however, that it is not urged by the unions themselves that this should be permitted; their views would be met by the acceptance of deposits within the extended limits of £250 in any one year and £1,000 in the aggregate. I have under consideration the issue of regulalations by the Commissioners to permit of the acceptance of deposits under such conditions. It would of course be understood that the right to exact ten days' notice of withdrawals, which exists as regards all deposits in the Post Office Savings Banks under Section 3 of the Post Office Savings Banks Act, 1861, might have to be specially enforced in regard to withdrawals by trade unions.
  MR. BARNES: Do these regulations and limits refer to each branch of a trade union, or to the union as a whole?
  *MR. ASQUITH: To each branch separately.

  Post Office Savings Bank Depositors and Consols.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask MR. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that when the books of the depositors in the Post Office Savings Bank are returned after the annual inspection a notice or leaflet is generally put in them recommending the purchase of Consols by the depositor, that this advice is frequently acted upon, and that dissatisfaction is now being expressed by those who now have to realise at a loss; and whether he will consider the advisability of discontinuing the practice until Consols are a less fluctuating security.
  MR. ASQUITH: The assumption that, when deposit books are returned after the annual examination, a notice or leaflet is
  1232
  enclosed recommending the purchase of Consols by the depositor is incorrect. Occasionally, a depositor, in forwarding his book for examination, makes some inquiry as to the facilities afforded for investment in Government Stock, and a printed notice explaining the arrangements is then sent to him with his book. This notice, so far from making any recommendation, expressly states that the Postmaster-General cannot undertake to advise depositors as to their transactions and that he cannot, of course, be held responsible for any losses which may be sustained by them if there should be a fall in the price of stock between the dates of purchase and sale.

  Wine Duties.
  MR. WALROND: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there have been any recent adjustments in the wine duties according to the alcoholic strength of those wines; and, if so, will he give particulars.
  MR. ASQUITH: There have been no alterations in the duties on imported wines since the Finance Act, 1899.

  Alcoholic Strength of Imported Wines.
  MR. WALROND: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state what is the average alcoholic strength of the wines respectively imported from France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Australia.
  MR. ASQUITH: The only materials available for supplying the information asked for by the hon. Member are those contained in the annual Parliamentary Return of Wines Imported (House of Commons 81 of 1907). The estimated average alcoholic strength of wines imported in cask from the countries mentioned is: —

  France

  19·36

  degrees.

  Spain

  28·83

  „

  Portugal

  35·04

  „

  Italy

  26·49

  „

  Australia

  25·62

  „

  As explained in the foot-note to the Return to which I have referred, there is practically no information as to the exact strength of wines imported in bottle, and the figures I have given are only approximately correct as regards wines in cask.

  Rate Defaulter in Goal.
  MR. CLOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many rate defaulters were summoned; how many of them suffered distraint; and how many of them suffered imprisonment, during 1901,1902, 1903,1904, and 1905.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.): The figures are not in existence, the prison records not distinguishing rate defaulters from other civil debtors. Even if the figures could be given correctly by the magistrates' clerks throughout the country —which I doubt —I do not think the information to be obtained is sufficiently valuable to justify the great labour that would be involved in collecting it.

  Motor Omnibus Traffic in London.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that some, if not all, of the motor omnibuses in London do their journeys as often as possible in the day and not a specified number of times; that conductors and drivers are paid on their drawings; that the system leads to loss of life and limb; and if he will take steps to alter it.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am given to understand that motor omnibuses in London have to run according to time tables. I am not aware that the wages of drivers or conductors are based on the earnings of the vehicles.

  Administration of the Dogs Act in Warwickshire.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention had been called to the Report presented to the Standing Joint Police Committee of Warwickshire by the Chief Constable on 29th April last, in which it was stated that the period of detention required by the Dogs Act of 1906 was far too long, and that he had, on his own responsibility, ordered dogs to be destroyed after three or four days detention; and whether, in view of this breach of Section 3 (2) of the Dogs Act of 1906, he will, with a view to the better administration of the Act in Warwickshire, consider the advisa-
  1234
  bility of issuing a circular pointing out the provisions contained in the Act.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have seen the report referred to by my hon. friend. The Chief Constable states that dogs of any value and dogs wearing collars with an address are invariably kept the seven days prescribed by Section 3 (4) of the Act, but worthless dogs with no collar are destroyed at the end of three or four days. This has been the practice in Warwickshire for many years, and there have been no complaints. Persons living near police stations are often much annoyed by the barking of dogs which are kept by the police, and it was to mitigate this nuisance that the instructions were given. I have called the Chief Constable's attention to the fact that he is not authorised by the Act to destroy any dog before the expiration of seven days, and that he renders himself liable to pay damages to the owner of any dog so killed.

  Metropolitan Police.
  DR. COOPER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any opportunity will be afforded on the Home Office Vote for the consideration of the pay, hours of work, and holidays of the Metropolitan Police.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The proper place for discussing this subject would be on the Police Vote. I am not in a position to say what time will be allotted for the discussion of the several Votes for which I am responsible, but that will no doubt be arranged in the usual manner.

  West Riding Higher Education Rate.
  *MR. CLOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has yet received a communication from the Board of Education concerning the appeal of the West Riding County Council to substitute a 3d. for the 2d. limit upon the rate for higher education, imposed by the Education Act, 1902; whether he can yet state his decision; and whether that decision is favourable to the substitution.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS, Battersea): I have not at present received a reply from the Board of Education.
  *MR. CLOUGH: Arising out of that Answer, will the right hon. Gentleman give the President of the Board of Education a nudge in regard to this matter?

  Underground Cables in Scotland.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General what decision he has come to with regard to the construction of underground telegraph cables in Scotland.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON, Tower Hamlets, Poplar): As I have already informed the House in the discussion on the Post Office estimates, the underground wire between Glasgow and Edinburgh is being proceeded with. I cannot at present say how far the line can be carried in the present financial year.

  Cunarders.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade when the Cunard fast steamers which are subsidised by the British Government will be ready to compete for the Atlantic passenger traffic, the bulk of which is now divided between the White Star and other American lines and the German lines.

  Statement showing the Average Quantity and Value of Refined Sugar, Sugar Goods (Confectionery, Jams, Preserves, etc.) and Aerated Waters of United Kingdom Produce, exported during the undermentioned periods: —

  Description of Article.

  Annual Average Quantity Exported.

  1901–3

  1904–6.

  Cwts.

  Cwts.

  Sugar, Refined and Candy.

  767,171

  701,071

  Sugar goods:

  (Confectionery, Jams, Preserved Fruit, etc.)

  320,917

  362,004

  Aerated Waters

  Doz. Bottles 868,643

  Doz. Bottles 1,108,191

  Suez Canal Dues.
  LORD BALCARRES: On behalf of the hon. Member for Darlington I beg
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY To THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. KEARLEY, Devonport): The Board of Trade are informed by the Cunard Company that the "Lusitania" is expected to be ready for her trials some time next month, and the "Mauretania" some months later. The vessels will be placed on the Atlantic service as early as possible after the trials are over. The suggestion in the last part of the Question that the White Star is an American line has already been repudiated by my right hon. friend in his reply to the hon. Member's Question on the 27th May. †

  Sugar Exports.
  LORD BALCARRES: On behalf of the hon. Member for Darlington I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what was the average exportation in the three years ending 1903 and 1906 of refined sugar, sugar goods (confectionery, jams, etc.), and mineral waters respectively.
  MR. KEARLEY: I will have the information asked for printed in the, Votes.
  The following is the information printed in the Votes: —The quantities exported were as follows:
  to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can give particulars as to the

  1237
  remission of Suez Canal dues by the Austrian Government on Austrian shipping passing through the canal; what is the total amount of the dues remitted in a recent year; and what proportion this bears to the total which such shipping would have had to pay had there been no remission.
  MR. KEARLEY: The Board of Trade will take steps to procure the information desired by the hon. Member.

  Salterhebble School.
  MR. BRIDGEMAN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education on what dates the plans for a new Church of England school at Salterhebble were finally sanctioned by the Board of Education and the local education authority; and on what date the Board of Education decided to discontinue the grant.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. MCKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.): The plans were approved by the Board on the 26th March, 1906. I am not able to say on what date they were sanctioned by the local authority. The Board informed the local authority on the 1st May, 1907, that they would not interfere with their decision to discontinue maintenance.
  MR. BRIDGEMAN: Did not the date sanctioned by the local authority form part of the subject which the right hon. Gentleman said he had carefully considered in deciding the case?
  MR. MCKENNA: I must ask for notice of that. I have no recollection of having said it.
  MR. BRIDGEMAN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if he has been informed that a competent firm of architects, on 4th June, stated, with reference to the Salterhebble Church school, that they had had the building under observation for some considerable time, and had no hesitation in stating that there was no foundation for the suggestion that it is in either an insanitary or an unsafe condition, and that it would have been waste of time to spend money on the repairs, in view of the intended rebuilding scheme; and if it is customary for the Board of Education to take extreme measures as to repairs
  1238
  when money is ready and plans approved for complete rebuilding.
  MR. MCKENNA: The Answer to the first paragraph is in the negative; to the second that the Board's action must depend on the circumstances of each particular case.
  MR. BRIDGEMAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman do me the favour to consider this Report if I send him a copy of it?
  MR. MCKENNA: No, Sir. I have already considered a Report from my own architect, whom I regard as fully competent to decide this question. My views are therefore not open in the matter.
  LORD R. CECIL: Why in this case did the right hon. Gentleman decide not to interfere with the decision of the local authority?
  MR. MCKENNA: Because the school was declared by the architect to be dangerous and unhealthy.
  LORD R. CECIL: Will the right hon. Gentleman lay on the Table of the House the Report on which he based his decision?
  MR. MCKENNA: No, Sir.
  LORD BALCARRES: Is it not the case that the building, having been condemned, was to be replaced by a modern structure, the plans of which were passed by the local education authority, and the money for which was paid into the bank?
  MR. MCKENNA: The plans were approved by the Board on the 26th March, 1906.

  Queen Victoria Memorial.
  MR. J. WARD: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether the stone for the late Queen Victoria Memorial is being prepared by foreign workmen.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT, Lancashire, Rossendale): The work for the Queen Victoria Memorial is not under the charge of any Government Department, but is carried out by the Committee appointed to dispose of the fund which

  1239
  was raised by national subscription. I understand that marble which is being quarried for the purpose at Carrara is being prepared by the workmen on the spot before it is shipped to England.

  Second Division Clerks.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, in view of the fact that an examination for seventy vacancies in the Second Division has been announced by the Civil Service Commissioners for 30th September next, whether he is aware that there are at present in the Department of the Accountant-General of the Navy thirty-one Second Division clerks borne temporarily in excess of the number on the authorised establishment; whether it is anticipated that such clerks will, in the ordinary course, be absorbed into the ranks of the permanent staff before the date of the examination; and, if not, whether he will state what reasons there are for holding the examination whilst there are in existence such temporarily borne Second Division clerks as those referred to.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. RUNCIMAN, Dewsbury): I am informed that the examination for Second Division clerkships which is announced to take place in September next is not for the purpose of filling existing vacancies, but is for the purpose of providing for the anticipated requirements of the public service for some months after the result of that examination has been ascertained. The circumstance that such an examination has been announced would not hinder the assignment to other Departments of such of the Second Division clerks now serving temporarily in the Department of the Accountant-General of the Navy as the Admiralty may from time to time be able to spare.

  County Courts Bill.
  MR. RENDALL: I beg to ask MR. Attorney-General when the County Courts Bill Lords] is likely to be presented to this House.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (SIR JOHN WALTON, Leeds, S.): I am afraid my hon. friend must address this
  1240
  Question to those in charge of the business in another House. It is impossible for me to say until the Bill reaches this House, which it has not yet done.

  Ullapool Church Property Division.
  SIR HENRY CRAIK: On behalf of the hon. Member for the City of London who is engaged on a Grand Committee upstairs, I bog to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been directed to the allocation of the church property at Ullapool to the United Free Church, notwithstanding the representation submitted to the Commissioners that the Sub-Commissioner had made an error in his Report, and that the Free Church had eighty more than the third required by the Act; and whether he will order a new inquiry.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: On behalf of my right hon. friend who is similarly engaged and is, I presume, keeping an eye on the hon. Baronet, I have to say that this matter lies with a Royal Commission appointed by Parliament and my right hon. friend has no such power as is suggested.

  Teachers' Superannuation Act.
  SIR HENRY CRAIK: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the actuarial report upon the working of the Teachers' Superannuation Act has been received; and whether, and, if so, when, it will be laid before Parliament.
  MR. JOHN BURNS (for Mr. SINCLAIR): The Report has not yet been received.
  SIR HENRY CRAIK: Will the cases of England and Scotland in this matter be dealt with separately?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I cannot say. I will convey the Question to my right hon. friend.

  Roscommon District Council Contracts.
  MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state why the Local Government Board have no record that the Roscommon District Council have passed a resolution stating that they will

  1241
  give preference to Irish-made goods, seeing that this resolution was published in the local newspaper on 1st June.
  The CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRE LAND (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.): The minutes of the proceedings of the Roscommon Rural District Council which were furnished to the Local Government Board contain no entry of any such resolution as is referred to in the Question.

  Baleighter Grazing Dispute.
  *SIR GEORGE FARDELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will ascertain and report to this House why three farmers named Corcoran, Doyle, and Kelly came before the New Inn branch of the United Irish League on Sunday, 26th May, and surrendered their farms at Baleighter; whether such action was due to illegal pressure exercised by the League; whether his attention has been called to threats that if the graziers do not surrender their farms in the district the people are determined to clear all the grass farms in the parish; and, if so, what action he proposes to take thereon.
  MR. BIRRELL: The three men named in the Question have informed the local police that, upon receiving letters asking them to attend a meeting of the branch referred to, they attended the meeting and promised to surrender their grazing farms. They have declined to give evidence of the fact or to produce the letters which they alleged they received. The police are aware that a statement to the effect mentioned in the latter part of the Question has been made. The police will take all possible measures to prevent the threat from being carried into effect.
  MR. MOORE: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Estates Commissioners do not proceed to deal with these farms by way of sale until intimidation in the district has ceased?
  MR. BIRRELL: No, Sir.

  Clonfert Grazing Dispute.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is
  1242
  aware that the Clonfert branch of the United Irish League has passed a resolution denouncing, by name, a grazier named Howard as a danger to the peace of the district; and whether he will engage that this man shall have peaceful possession of the property which he legally holds.
  MR. BIRRELL: The police authorities inform me that a statement to the effect mentioned in the Question has appeared in a local newspaper, but they have reason to believe that no such resolution was passed. The police will afford Howard any protection that may be necessary.

  Rodney Estate, Galway.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on the Rodney estate have refused to pay rent for their holdings until the estate has been handed over to the Estates Commissioners; that MR. Kirwan, the agent for the said estates, was under police protection when he visited Athenry on Monday the 27th ultimo to collect rents; and whether he will engage that the landlord shall receive legal payment for his lands either from the tenants or the Estates Commissioners.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Com missioners inform me that no proceedings for the sale of this estate have been instituted before them, and they know nothing of the alleged withholding of rent. It is the fact that the agent received police protection when at Athenry on 27th May. Obviously I cannot give the undertaking suggested in the last part of the Question. If the facts are as stated, the usual legal remedies are open to the landlord.

  Nationalist Magistrates.
  MR. BARRIE: On behalf of the hon. Member for Mid Armagh, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that pressure is being brought to bear upon ex officio magistrates who are Nationalists to discharge their judicial functions in the interests of the persons accused of offences in connection with the agitation in the grazing districts; and whether, in view of the decisions of a majority of

  1243
  the magistrates in recent prosecutions, he intends to rely upon the Courts of petty sessions to support the executive power in upholding the law in the disturbed districts.
  MR. BIRRELL: My attention has been called to certain newspaper paragraphs which, if correct, indicate that the presence of individual magistrates on the Bench on particular occasions has been invited. The Lord Chancellor has intimated to certain ex officio magistrates who have attended petty sessions outside the districts for which they were appointed that if they should persist in such a course of action he will take steps to supersede them.Ex officio magistrates hold their office under the terms of an Act of Parliament, and I shall certainly rely upon Courts of petty sessions to uphold the law.
  MR. MOOREasked what action would be taken with regard to cases in which magistrates had adjudicated when they were not entitled to sit?
  MR. BIRRELL: That will depend on the circumstances of each case.
  MR. MOORE: Does the Lord Chancellor intend to limit the actions of ordinary magistrates?
  MR. BIRRELL: I must leave that to the Lord Chancellor to decide.

  Mr. Luttrell's Farm.
  MR. BARRIE: On behalf of the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has yet received official information showing that MR. Luttrell was compelled to yield possession of his farm at Roscomroe in consequence of the intimidation of the United Irish League and the inadequate protection afforded him by the executive.
  MR. BIRRELL: I informed the hon. Member on 29th May that a force of twenty-five police was encamped on MR. Luttrell's farm for the purpose of pre-venting interference with his cattle, which had been driven off on two occasions. MR. Luttrell has not yet surrendered the farm, but has expressed his intention of surrendering it on the next gale day. In view of this fact the
  1244
  police have now been withdrawn. If MR. Luttrell should carry out his ex pressed intention of surrendering his farm it will not be for want of adequate protection. The police authorities inform me that there is no evidence that MR. Luttrell was intimidated by the United Irish League.

  Crannagh Farm Boycott.
  MR. BARRIE: On behalf of the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Haire, the holder of the Crannagh farm, is still boycotted, that on his going to the Roman Catholic church on a recent Sunday the greater part of the congregation left the building and waited for him outside, that on his leaving the church he was assaulted, and that the magistrates before whom the case was brought refused to convict his assailant; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  MR. BIRRELL: The police authorities inform me that John Haire, who holds a portion of the Crannagh farm, is not boycotted, but it has been found necessary to afford police protection to him and his family. Haire himself has not recently attended the Roman Catholic church, but on Sunday, 21st May, one of his sons when returning from the church was assaulted with an umbrella by a woman. The police prosecuted the offender, but the magistrates, who considered the offence to have been trivial, dismissed the case with a caution, the defendant having given an undertaking that she would not again interfere with the Haires. It is not intended to take further action in the case.

  Carrick-on-Shannon Unlawful Assembly Trial.
  MR. BARRIE: On behalf of the hon. Member for Mid Armagh, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieu tenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the charges of unlawful assembly and intimidation, in connection with a cattle drive, which were brought against four men, at Carrick-on-Shannon petty sessions, on 31st May, were dismissed by a majority of the magistrates; and whether, in view of the character of the evidence, he intends- to order further proceedings in this case.
  MR. BIRRELL: The proceedings in question consisted in an application to bind the defendants to be of good behaviour, and this application was dismissed by a majority of the magistrates. The question whether further proceedings are to be taken is at present under consideration.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: Did any magistrates deal with this case who were not entitled to sit?
  MR. BIRRELLasked for notice of the Question.

  Irish Poor Law Reform.
  MR. BARRIE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when he now expects to deal with the pressing matter of Poor Law reform in Ireland; and does he propose to proceed on the lines of the recent Commission's Report.
  MR. BIRRELL: I am not yet in a position to add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member's previous Question on this subject on 30th April.†

  Galway Land Act Administration.
  MR. HAZLETON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Galway County Council at their last quarterly meeting deferred payment of the costs of valuation as a protest against the manner in which estates in the county of Galway divided under the Land Act of 1903 have been left unrevised for a long period, so that the persons liable for the poor rates cannot be ascertained; whether he will instruct the Estates Commissioners when they have striped an estate to lodge with the Commissioner of Valuation full details, with maps, etc., of such estate; and whether ho will instruct the Commissioner of Valuation on receipt of such information from the Estates Commissioners forthwith to send down an official from the Valuation Office to revise the valuation.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Galway County Council have deferred payment of their contribution towards the cost of the
  †See(4)debates,clxxiii,712.
  1246
  annual revision of the valuation lists upon the ground that the Commissioner of Valuation has declined to revise valuations from time to time outside the annual revision provided for by the statute. Under the existing law the Commissioner of Valuation has power to issue revised valuation lists once a year only, namely, on or before 1st March. The Estates Commissioners have already made arrangements with the Commissioner of Valuation which enable him to ascertain the names of new proprietors and full particulars of the lands sold to them. I have no power to give the instructions suggested in the latter part of the Question. A revision of the valuation at any other time than that prescribed by law would not be possible.

  Cow Mutilation at Muckenagh.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called by the police or otherwise to an outrage at Muckenagh on the 27th or 28th ultimo, when a cow was mutilated belonging to one Matt Farrell; whether any motive is assigned by the police for this crime; and whether the perpetrator has been brought to justice.
  MR. BIRRELL: The police have re ported that on 26th May a portion of the tail of a cow, the property of Matthew Farrell, was maliciously cut off. The motive for the offence could only be a matter of conjecture. The police have not succeeded in discovering the offender.

  Irish Postmen and Politics.
  Captain CRAIG: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Edward Leonard, of Trillick, who is an established postman, took part in a Hibernian demonstation held in Trillick on the 30th ultimo, as a member of the Trillick Hibernian band; and, seeing that Leonard had to resign the service on a former occasion for taking part in a hostile demonstration on the occasion of the present King's, then Prince of Wales, visit to Omagh some years ago, will he say what action he proposes to take?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I find that Edward Leonard, an established postman at Trillick, is a member of the Hibernian band at that place and took part in the

  1247
  proceedings on the 30th ultimo. He was not in uniform; and there is no cause for my interference. There is no record of the facts alleged in the latter part of the Question; and they are denied by Leonard. He was at the time, in 1885, a boy under fifteen years of age and was not, I believe, in the Post Office service.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: May I ask whether others in the postal service will be permitted to take part in the celebrations of 12th July, if they are not in uniform?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: If they adhere to the regulations laid down as to their conduct no notice will be taken.

  The Government and the Lords.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the Prime Minister when the terms of the Resolution whereby he proposes to modify the relations now subsisting between the two Houses of Parliament will be placed upon the Notice Paper.
  The PRIME MINISTER and FIRST LORD of the TREASURY (SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs): I hope in a day or two.

  Welsh Disestablishment.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the assurances which he gave before the last general election that the question of the disestablishment and disendowment of the English Church in Wales would be dealt with on the first available opportunity in the new Parliament, he can now give an assurance that a measure dealing with this question will be introduced early next session.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am afraid that I cannot hold out any expectation of this great subject being dealt with next session.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would under take to make no further promise of legislation to take precedence of this question.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I had better not say.

  Housing of the Working Classes Bill.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in the event of its being not possible to introduce the Housing of the Working Classes Bill this session, he can give an assurance that the Government will introduce and proceed with the Bill at the earliest possible moment in next session.
  The following Questions on the same subject also appeared on the Paper: —
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: To ask the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce the Housing of the Working Classes Bill this session; and, if so, whether he can approximately name the date of introduction.
  SIR J. DICKSON POYNDER: To ask the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce a Housing Bill this session; and, if so, whether he can name the date it is to be introduced.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Perhaps I may answer the Questions of my right hon. friend the Member for the Ilkeston Division and my hon. friend the Member for the Chippenham Division at the same time. In my statement on public business last week I said that my hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board had a Bill in readiness which could be introduced if it were thought to be beneficial to the cause of housing reform that it should be introduced this session. My present impression is that it would be hardly worth while to devote any time to the mere introduction of this Bill unless there was a strong and general desire that that should be done.
  MR. MACKARNESSasked for an Answer to his Question in reference to next session.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Oh ! "sufficient unto the session."

  Scottish Bills.
  MR. SMEATON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he can hold out any hope of passing the Scottish Education Bill during the present session.
  MR. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg also to ask the Prime

  1249
  Minister whether, in view of the pledge given by the Secretary for Scotland to the Committee on Law that the Government would proceed with the Education (Scotland) Bill this session, he can inform the House when the Bill is to have a Second Reading; and whether it will follow the Small Landholders (Scotland) Bill in the Scottish Committee.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am afraid I cannot say anything definite on the subject of this Bill; we are anxious to go on with it, if possible.
  MR. PIRIE: Has the right hon. Gentleman realised the very serious position in which Scottish legislation has been placed by the action of the Scottish Grand Committee?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I cannot control the action of the Scottish Grand Committee, but I am aware that their present action and the general position are not conducive to the rapid and successful passing of Scottish measures.
  MR. PIRIE: Are we to understand that the prospects of Scottish legislation this session are absolutely nil?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No, I do not think so.

  Land Law (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill.
  *SIR FRANCIS POWELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister what course it is intended to adopt as regards the Land Law (Ireland) Acts Amendment Bill, which now stands next on the list of Bills submitted to Standing Committee B.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: This is a private Member's Bill, and I imagine that the usual course will be followed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he understood that the Prime Minister had stated that the Resolution dealing with the House of Lords would be in the hands of Members of the House in two or three days. Would the right hon. Gentleman give a fortnight for the consideration of that Resolution? He
1250
understood, he supposed rightly, that the Resolution was intended to be the prelude to a great constitutional change, and a, fortnight was not too long for its consideration. He also desired to know whether the right hon. Gentleman would have printed, for the convenience of Members, the Small Holdings Act of 1892. The Bill which they were to discuss to-morrow was based on the Act of 1892 by reference; and it would greatly facilitate the discussion of the measure if they had the older Bill in their hands in a convenient form.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid he thought there would be no difficulty in reprinting the Act of 1892. It was obviously for the convenience of the House. It would be reprinted in time for the Committee Stage. He thought he had stated that the Resolution relating to the House of Lords would be in the hands of Members in one or two days. At all events it would be in their hands very shortly. He thought a fort night was rather too long a time for its consideration. The volume might be great, but the preface to the volume was not likely to be of great extent, and he should have thought that a week or ten days would be quite sufficient.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Is it not understood that in this particular case the whole volume is to be compressed in the preface?
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The preface will deal only with the question whether the volume shall be printed.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Will the right hon. Gentleman, for the convenience of Members, have reprinted the Small Holdings Act, 1892, which is constantly referred to in the Bill of the First Commissioner of Works, as it would greatly facilitate the comprehension of that measure?
SIR WALTER FOSTER: And also the various Allotment Acts which are likewise dealt with by reference?
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Yes, my right hon. friend will look into the matter and include all Acts to which reference is made.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES.)
SIR WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Married Women's Property Bill): MR. Micklem, Sir Henry Kimber, MR. Radford, MR. Berridge, Sir Francis Lowe, MR. Astbury, MR. White head, MR. Bertram, MR. Napier, Sir Edward Boyle, MR. Haddock, MR. Morton, MR. Brooke, MR. Silcock, and MR. Hazleton.
SIR WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Incest Bill): Colonel Lockwood, Sir John Kennaway, MR. Crossley, MR. Henry J. Wilson, MR. Goddard Clarke, MR. Maclean, MR. John Wilson, MR. George Hardy, MR. Weir, MR. Hedges, Earl of Ronaldshay, Colonel Sandys, MR. Houston, MR. Robert Pearce, and MR. Russell Rea.
SIR WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Injured Animals Act (1894) Amendment Bill): SIR Howard Vincent, Sir William Brampton Gurdon, Sir Frederick Banbury, MR. Warner, Sir Philip Muntz, MR. Jackson, MR. Crosfield, MR. Alan Gardner, Major Dunne, MR. Freeman-Thomas, MR. Rothschild, MR. Luttrell, MR. George Greenwood, MR. Thornton, and MR. Leverton Harris.
SIR WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B (in respect of the Criminal Appeal BILL): MR. Solicitor-General, MR. Burns, Dr.
Macnamara, MR. Massie, and Sir Thomas Whittaker; and had appointed in substitution: MR. Attorney-General, MR. Secretary Gladstone, MR. Herbert Samuel, MR. Whitehead, and MR. Silcock.
SIR WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee B the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Criminal Appeal Bill): Sir William Anson, MR. Rawlinson, Sir Edward Carson, Sir Howard Vincent, MR. Lyttelton, MR. Adkins, MR. George Greenwood, MR. Stanger, MR. Buck master, MR. Pickersgill, MR. Bottomley, MR. Mallet, MR. Osmond Williams, Sir Thomas Roe, and MR. Lloyd Morgan.
SIR WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee C the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Imported Watch cases Bill): Colonel M'Calmont, Sir Samuel Scott, MR. T. L. Corbett, MR. W. F. D. Smith, MR. William Nicholson, MR. B. S. Straus, MR. Montagu, MR. Wynford Philipps, MR. Myer, MR. George H. Faber, MR. Seddon, MR. William Johnson, MR. Waterlow, MR. Haworth, and MR. Cairns.
Reports to lie upon the Table.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Proceedings on the Business of Supply, if under discussion when the Business is postponed, be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of Business, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15." — (Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
The House divided: —Ayes, 244; Noes, 77. (Division List No. 227.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Beale, W. P.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Beauchamp, E.

Brigg, John

Alden, Percy

Beck, A. Cecil

Bright, J. A.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo.

Brooke, Stopford

Asquith,Rt.Hon.HerbertHenry

Bennett, E. N.

Brunner,J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Bethell,SirJ.H. (Essex.Romf'rd

Brunner,RtHnSirJ.T.(Cheshire

Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Bryce, J. Annan

Barlow,JohnEmmott(Somerset

Billson, Alfred

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Barnes, G. N.

Bowerman, C. W.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Barry,Redmond J. (Tyrone,N.)

Brace, William

Buxton, Rt.Hn. SydneyCharles

Byles, William Pollard

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Cameron, Robert

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Robertson.Rt. Hn. E (Dundee)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Jowett, F. W.

Robinson, S.

Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

Kearley, Hudson E.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Kekewich, Sir George

Roe, Sir Thomas

Chance, Frederick William

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Laidlaw, Robert

Rose, Charles Day

Cheetham, John Frederick

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Rowlands, J.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Runciman, Walter

Cleland, J. W.

Lambert, George

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Clough, William

Lamont, Norman

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Coats,SirT.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Lea,Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras.E.

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Sears, J. E.

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

Lehmann, R. C.

Seaverns, J. H.

Cooper, G. J.

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire,Wirrall)

Seely, Major J. B.

Corbett,CH (Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Lough, Thomas

Shackleton, David James

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Cox, Harold

Lyell, Charles Henry

Sherwell, Arthur James

Crombie, John William

Lynch, H. B.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk Bg'hs

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Markarness, Frederic C.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Snowden, P.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Macpherson, J. T.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

M'Crae, George

Spicer, Sir Albert

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Stanger, H. Y.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

M'Micking, Major G.

Steadman, W. C.

Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Marnham, F.J.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Elibank, Master of

Massie, J.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Erskine, David C.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Summerbell, T.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Menzies, Walter

Sutherland, J. E.

Everett, R. Lacey

Molteno, Percy Alport

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Tennant,Sir Edward(Salisbury

Fenwick, Charles

Montgomery, H. G.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Findlay, Alexander

Morrell, Philip

Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Morse, L. L.

Thomasson, Franklin

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Murray, James

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Fuller, John Michael F.

Napier, T. B.

Verney, F. W.

Fullerton, Hugh

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Vivian, Henry

Gill, A. H.

Nicholls, George

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

Nicholson,CharlesN. (Doncast'r

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

Grant, Corrie

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Wardle, George J.

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Grady, J.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Gulland, John W.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Paulton, James Mellor

Watt, Henry A.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Pearson,W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Philipps, J.Wynford (Pembroke

Weir, James Galloway

Harvey, W.E. (Derbyshire,N.E.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Whitbread, Howard

Haworth, Arthur A.

Pirie, Duncan V.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Helme, Norval Watson

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Whitehead, Rowland

Henry, Charles S.

Priestley,W.E.B. (Bradford.E.)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Higham, John Sharp

Radford, G. H.

Wiles, Thomas

Hobart, Sir Robert

Rainy, A. Rolland

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Raphael, Herbert H.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Holt, Richard Durning

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Williamson, A.

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R).

Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset, N

Rees, J. D.

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Horniman, Emslie John

Rendall, Athelstan

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Richards, T.F. (Wolverhampt'n

Hyde, Clarendon

Rickett, J. Compton

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and MR. Herbert Lewis

Jackson, R. S.

Ridsdale, E. A.

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

1254

1255

NOES

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Fell, Arthur

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Forster, Henry William

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Balcarres, Lord

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Powell, (Sir Francis Sharp

Balfour.RtHn.A.J. (CityLond.)

Gibbs, G A (Bristol, West)

Radles, Sir John Scurrah

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Haddock, George R.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Hamilton, Marquess of

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

Hardy,Laurence (Kent,Ashford

Rothschild, Hon Lionel Walter

Beach,Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hervey,FWF.(BuryS.Edm'nds

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hills, J. W.

Smith,Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hunt, Rowland

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kennaway,Rt.Hon.SirJohn H.

Thomson.W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

Cavendish,Rt.Hon. Victor C.W.

Kenyon-Slaney.Rt.Hon Col.W.

Thornton, Percy M.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Take, Sir John Batty

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Walker,Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Liddell, Henry

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Craig.CharlesCurtis (Antrim,S.)

Lockwood,Rt.Hn. Lt.-Col.A.R.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Craig,CaptainJames (Down,E.)

Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Craik, Sir Henry

Long,Rt.Hn. Walter (Dublin.S)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Dixon-Hartland,SirFred Dixon

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Duncan,Robert (Lanark, Govan

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Faber, George Denison (York)

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Faber, Capt. W.V. (Hants, W.)

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Fardell, Sir T. George

Moore, William

SUPPLY [12TH ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid.) in the Chair.]

NAVY ESTIMATES 1907–8.
1. £1,996,400, Victualling and Clothing for the Navy.
*The SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON, Dundee)said he had promised to make a statement in regard to this matter. Vote 2 was pretty well, in all its details, in the same condition as it had been for many years past. There was practically no alteration in the organisation of the Vote. There was, however, one essential point of difference. It was with reference to the kit of the seamen and stokers. These men received on entry a gratuity of £10 to cover the cost of purchasing their first outfit, and the money was taken back from the men when the kit was purchased. It was now proposed that the money should no longer be paid to the men, but the clothes would be provided for them. He proposed to refer to various developments that had taken place in the course of the year. A good deal had been done as the result of the operations of the Committee appointed under the last
1256
Administration to consider questions of cooking. The cookery staff would be increased in some twenty ships, the object being to have the meals of the seamen cooked by trained cooks; and with the same idea naval schools of cookery at the home ports had been considerably improved. Provision had been made for the supply of fresh milk instead of condensed milk for men in the shore establishments and depot-ships, and fresh pork would be provided at various stations where ships called. Then the Committee on Seamen's Uniforms had made several recommendations on clothing which had been adopted. The value of the kit had been reduced by the elimination of articles deemed to be unnecessary. The initial cost of the kit had been reduced from £9 5s. to £6 15s., thereby yielding a saving to the State on the one hand of about £11,000 a year, and to the men, on the other, of considerably more. Oilskin suits would now be provided by the State instead of by the men, and sea-boots for use in the stokehold. The supply of ready-made uniforms would, as far as possible, be in creased, and attention would be given to the training of men in the art of tailoring, so that they might be of service on board ship in that capacity. The stock of mess utensils, which often had to be supplemented out of canteen sources, would, to a large extent, be supplied

1257
by the Navy —that was to say, the Government. The supply of newspapers confined to ships on foreign service and the Channel Fleet, would now be extended to all. As to tobacco, it was said that the strong unmanufactured tobacco was too strong for many of the younger men, and therefore a new kind of tobacco of a milder type had been introduced. He had tried it himself and thought it very good. The Canteen Committee, presided over by Admiral Login, had made a great many important recommendations. He saw no reason why this report should not be published, though it could not be published immediately, as it had to be referred to another Department. He would try to summarize the more important recommendations. Most Members, he supposed, knew roughly what was the present system of naval rations. The naval ration, consisting of bread, meat, and so forth, was a list of items of provisions amounting in cost to the State of 10d. per man per day. The men, how ever, were not obliged to take all the items in the ration; they might drop some of them if they liked, and in lieu get part of the value in money, which was called "savings." With this they might purchase for themselves, wherever they could get them, the articles which they preferred. That was the existing system of naval ration, mitigated by savings, which had been for many years a subject of com plaint.
MR. HUNTasked whether the men got anything in lieu of the corned beef if they rejected that item.
*MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he was not aware that they did not. He would inquire. The men need not take up all the articles unless they liked. The naval ration was objected to by the men on account of its monotony; it might be very good at one season of the year and not at another. He was told, too, that the savings system had great disadvantages. The Canteen Committee recommended the abolition of this system and the institution of another. There would in future be a standard ration at a cost to the Government of 6d. instead of 10d., and the balance, 4d., would be given as a messing allowance to the men. This standard ration would have to be taken
1258
up by the men, and the 4d. per day would be a money allowance. It followed from this that the Government provisions on board ship were to be available for purchase by the men, and could be bought by them with their messing allowance. Many of the men were willing to take Government provisions. As a part of the same scheme more convenient times of issue would be arranged for, a number of men having complained that they could not get their provisions when they wanted them. Improvements were also suggested in specific rations, and there were a number of miscellaneus recommendations, the most important of which was that in the case of destroyers and ships of that size, which did not carry canteens, some extra care should be taken on the part of the Navy to provide a greater variety of provisions for the men. The canteen had become an essential part of the economical organisation of a man-of-war. The canteen was, in fact, a shop on board ship, and the contractor, once he was in possession, had a monopoly. That position must be faced whether they liked it or not. Of course, the main raison d'etre, as he understood, was to enable the men to get a greater choice of food without their being tied down rigidly to the Government rations. He did not want to use exaggerated language about the matter, and he purposed to say as few words as he could, and would refer to the Report of the Canteen Committee. In the opinion of the Committee the Admiralty had too long held aloof from the canteens; they had ignored them too much, and they had too long avoided responsibility for them. He was bound to say that that had been due to a feeling of respect for the freedom of the men, and with a desire to give them a free hand in the matter. The principal recommendation made by the Committee was that the Admiralty should no longer shirk its responsibility; that it should supervise far more than it had done hitherto the canteen system. First of all, the Committee recommended that the Admiralty, among their other lists of contractors, should keep a list of men qualified or entitled to offer themselves as contractors or tenants of the canteens, and that that list should be available for the commanding officer when he was about to make a contract for the canteen. It was

1259
not proposed to interfere with the commanding officer's responsibility, and he would be nominally the party to the contract for the canteen onboard. Then, in the second place, it was proposed that the Admiralty should keep a record of the history of the canteen contractors. The Admiralty would do that, of course, on reports from their various representatives, and they would keep also the price lists for the use of the commanding officers for the purpose of making their contracts. To do that it was essential that they should have regular reports from all the Fleet. A canteen might be a success on one ship and a failure on some other ship, and they proposed therefore to have reports at the Admiralty. Further, the Committee had drawn up a model agreement for letting the canteens, to be used by the commanding officers when they were making engagements.
MR. ARTHUR LEE: Will the commanding officers not be allowed to go outside the list?
*MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he could not give a definite answer, but he thought that as a matter of fact commanding officers would not be likely to go outside the list. He supposed the prices would be discussed and then they would settle a contract. The Report of the Committee called attention to certain disagreeable features connected with the canteen system, and the means adopted by enterprising con tractors to get contracts. They suggested that regulations should be made which would secure the purity of the lettings and keep down prices to a proper level by suppressing certain expenditure which was not in itself legitimate. Finally, the Committee recommended that the canteen should no longer be allowed to duplicate the Government stores, and the advantage of that proposal was that it would tend to save space and weight on board. That finished what he had to say about the recommendations in regard to the canteens. He would now proceed to one or two other recommendations. The Committee seemed to have some doubt altogether about the value of the ration system, and they suggested the adoption of the general messing system which, he believed, pre-
1260
vailed in the United States Navy, in which the messing for all ratings on board was under the control of the commissariat steward, just as a similar officer dealt with the mess on board an Atlantic liner. Under that system, the cost to the Government would be no greater than the present cost of tenpence a day, while it would lead to better food and a greater variety of it. But the men would no longer have an opportunity of choosing for themselves, though there might be a consultation from time to time as to their tastes. The commissariat steward who would do the catering would be assisted by an adequate staff, and he would provide for the whole ship at a cost which would be no greater to the Government than the present cost, and would load to better results and better food for the men.
MR. ARTHUR LEE: Will the steward be in the position of a contractor or will he be an administrative officer?
*MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he would be an administrative officer. It was proposed to try this messing system by way of experiment only, and it was thought that the experiment should be made on the "Dreadnought" as the most suitable ship. The Committee had also made certain suggestions as to temperance in the Navy. Hitherto what he had referred to in regard to the Report of the Committee took the form of positive recommendations, but in regard to temperance in the Navy the Committee merely made suggestions. What they said about temperance was put in a much more modest way. The present system was this. The Government ration costing tenpence a day included a modest little item for rum. One-eighth of a pint per diem was what was called the rum ration, which cost the State a little more than three-sixteenths of a penny per man. The man who did not choose to take up rum took up instead a money allowance. He got, not the value of the rum, but nine-sixteenths of a penny, so that he gained six-sixteenths of a penny, which was equivalent, he found, to ten shillings per annum per man. The essential part of the present system was that the men were entered on the ship's books with a mark to indicate whether they were

1261
temperance men or not. The man who did not take grog, but took the money instead, was labelled in the ship's ledger under the letter "T." —temperance. The number of men who were so labelled, who did not take the spirit at all but received the money instead, were, he was told, and he was rather surprised and gratified to hear it, 25 per cent. of the Navy. [Cheers.] His hon. friend cheered that statement, but there was ground for still further gratification in the fact that the number who did not take rum was rising 1 per cent. per annum. The Committee had made the suggestion that the custom of labelling the men should be altered, and that instead of labelling the temperance men "T." they should label the grog men "G."
MR. ARTHUR LEE: Is not this lettering already in use —" T." for torpedo, and "G." for gunnery?
*MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid the letters he was referring to appeared only in the ship's ledger. Another suggestion of the Committee was that the inducement to take money instead of grog should be increased by raising the grog money from 9–16ths of a penny to a penny per day. That would mean a grant of 23s. per head per annum to those who did not take grog, and an additional expenditure of £15,000 more than the cost of the present allowance. If the whole of the Navy were to become T.'s, the cost, making allowance for officers, service boys, Coast Guard, and others not allowed grog, would be £88,000 a year if the Committee's suggestion was adopted. That was a fair summary of the Report, some of the recommendations of which would have to be considered by other Departments. The whole scheme would be submitted to a final judgment as soon as possible, and the Report would be in the hands of Members before very long. If the things with which he had dealt were small, they were all important in their way. They all affected the well-being of the men, and on that depended in the long run the strength of His Majesty's Fleet. Taken altogether, what the Admiralty had done and what the Committee recommended constituted a social reform of the Navy well worthy of the sympathy of the Committee.
MR. HUNTasked what they were to understand by this duplicate provision. What portion would be provided by the Admiralty and what portion by the contractor? Would the canteen system go on as before, or would the contractor have to pay from £200 to £300 for the privilege of having a monopoly? In the past these contractors had been allowed to buy the cheapest stuff and soil it to the men at the highest price. Was he right in supposing that the Navy contractors took annually about £3,000,000 from the men in the Navy? As the Admiralty sold tobacco upon which no duty was paid, why could they not buy these extra provisions themselves and supply them to the men at cost price? He saw no reason why they should not do so. By buying in large quantities they could buy very cheaply and they could supply the men with a good quality of goods at a cheaper rate than was at present charged by the contractor. If the men in the Navy found it necessary to buy food in this way, they ought to be supplied with good stuff at as low a price as possible. At present the system was exactly the reverse. Large sums were being spent upon the food supplies for the Navy and it was their duty to see that the men were well fed.
*MR. BOWLESsaid the statement which the right hon. Gentleman had made was of a comprehensive character. These matters of food and clothing in the Navy might seem rather small matters of detail to some hon. Members, but they were nevertheless of the greatest practical importance. If the men were fed and clothed in a way which they considered satisfactory and under a system which they considered fair it would do a great deal to make the Navy popular. In regard to the victualling proposals they were at a considerable disadvantage through not having before them the Report of the Committee which had been considering these questions. But as far as he could understand those proposals from what the right hon. Gentleman had said, they seemed to him to be conceived upon absolutely right and sound lines and likely to be of the greatest possible value to the service. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not be led by anyone to depart from the position he had

1263
taken up as to making the Report public. This was important in view of the very serious charges which had been made against a system which went right through the service from top to bottom. Charges of the gravest possible character had been made against the whole existing system, and if they had been substantiated it was important and in the interests of the service that that substantiation should be available to everybody concerned. He was extremely glad that the Committee had reported that the time had gone by when the Admiralty could absolve itself from responsibility in regard to the canteens, and that they ought to take over that responsibility. That was the only way in which the matter could be placed upon a satisfactory footing. He gathered from the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the contracts for the canteen would still continue to be made separately for each ship. He supposed there was no idea of a fleet contract or a single contract being entered into for a whole squadron. He hoped some good reasons would be forthcoming for that decision; for he had always thought that one of the great advantages of the Admiralty's taking over the responsibility for this auxiliary supplying of the canteens would be that, by making a large central contract, they would get articles at wholesale prices, and so be able to sell them more cheaply to the men. On the whole, however, he was bound to say that he thought both the Navy and the country would be obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for what he had done. The matter was of very great importance, and he thought it was quite clear that it was in a fair way of being put on straight lines. There might and probably would be details in which he could not agree; but so long as the main lines of the change were sound, the rest would be set right by experience. So far as he could judge, sound lines had been laid down by the right hon. Gentleman, with the help, he had no doubt, of Admiral Login, the value of whose services could not possibly be exaggerated. As to the clothing of the men, which the right hon. Gentleman had passed over in a sentence, he wished to say one or two words. A change had been made for the current year which was of the most far-reaching and fundamental character; and as to its wisdom
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and ultimate effects, he entertained very serious apprehension. The Committee was well aware that in the matter of uniform the Navy stood in an absolutely different —indeed, in an exactly opposite —position from every other uniformed service in the Empire, and, he believed, throughout the world. In every other, service of the King of a uniformed character, the uniform was provided free of cost to the men, and maintained up to a certain specified standard at the cost of the taxpayers. In the case of the Royal Navy alone, the men were clothed and their clothing was maintained throughout free of cost to the Exchequer, and entirely at the cost of the men themselves. That was a fundamental and remarkable difference. The system was this. The Admiralty provided the materials for making the men's clothes. The cloth was bought at wholesale price, and sold to the men at cost price, plus 5 per cent. for various charges in connection with the establishment. The men bought the cloth with their own money, they made the uniforms themselves, and they made their own arrangements for making them. There was therefore a small profit —certainly no loss—to the State. The men gave the whole of their labour and tailoring for nothing. That system was obviously good from the point of view of the taxpayer. In the case of the Army there were enormous factories at Pimlico, involving large expenditure from year to year from the public purse, while in the case of the Navy there were no such charges at all. He had often wondered why it was that the blue-jacket, every half-hour of whose time was occupied by very hard work, should have for hundreds of years undertaken the cost and labour of making his own clothes, whereas the soldier, who had infinitely less to do, had his clothes made for him. He had wondered, in his simple-minded way, whether it would not be possible to use up some of the spare time of the soldiers of the Line in the making of their own clothes. The Estimate in the Vote this year for clothing and tobacco was £300,000, and the amount to be received was £310,000, so that the State was making a profit of £10,000. That was satisfactory from the point of view not only of the taxpayer, but of the service as a whole. Having bought and made their kits, the men had the

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pride of genuine ownership. No one would deny that the clothing of the blue-jackets was admirably made. The system seemed to him to present enormous advantages. It had only one defect, if it could be called a defect, namely, that it did not ensure absolute cast-iron uniformity. For some reason which he could not conceive, the Admiralty had issued a circular enacting that from the beginning of next year the issue of materials in the way he had described should cease. Whether the men in the Navy liked it or not, they were to be forced to buy, and what was worse, to wear, a ready-made uniform provided by the Admiralty. That was a serious change which would be very expensive in the end. The history of the uniform in the Navy was very interesting. The Committee might be surprised to hear that it was only in 1879 that the first order issued from the Admiralty fixing any uniform at all. Before then the uniform had depended considerably as to detail upon the idiosyncracies of the various commanders and officers of ships. A distinguished officer told him a few days ago that he was a midshipman in the 'sixties, and that on board his ship the midshipmen used habitually to go aloft in white top hats. In 1879 the Admiralty fixed what articles and how man of each a man was to have, and laid down definite instructions as to sizes, measurements and other details. There were Admiralty instructions as to the size of pockets, the position of buttons, and measurements, but they had not been acted upon. The thing was regarded as being rather foolish — the product of wooden-headed officialism. So long as a man was properly and, above all, smartly dressed the exact measurements were not insisted upon in the ships, but they were always rigid y insisted upon in barracks. In the depots there were police, one part of whose duty was to see that the exact directions of the Admiralty in regard to ridiculous details of stitching and lacing were carried out to the letter. They had been extremely rigid and all kinds of difficulties had arisen in con sequence. Men of the highest character had come back from their ships with kits on which they had spent much time and money, and of which they were naturally proud. They had been forced to lay their kits before the authorities, and the clothes had been ripped up
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and destroyed, because they were not made according to instructions. He submitted that all that was folly and a mistake, and he was astonished that the Admiralty should have sanctioned it so long. It now appeared that it was to be not only sanctioned but forcibly ex tended to the whole service. What had happened was that the Admiralty had given a sudden order on 1st February, 1907, that the supply of the material for the uniforms was to be stopped, and that the men of the Service were to be supplied with ready-made slop uniforms. The result would be that the pride which the blue-jackets now (took in their clothes would be diminished, that there would be a demand for a "fore-and-aft rig "as it was called for service on board ship instead of the present beautiful dress; and also a demand for the right to wear plain clothes ashore. He met accidentally two men from a ship in the Channel Fleet the other day, dressed in their smartest and most hand some uniforms, beautifully made; and he talked with them about various things, among others of this proposal, and they said to him that if they were to be put into the "purser's rig "they would never come ashore in it as long as they could buy a yard or two of serge to make a suit for themselves. He condemned the stupid wooden Prussian demand for absolute uniformity in every petty detail. If the Service were left alone the sailors would still have a very handsome dress at no charge to anybody. On the other hand, if this ridiculous change were insisted upon, the Admiralty would be doing what was extremely unpopular, and would inevitably give rise to a demand that the country should supply a uniform for the men at very considerable cost as was done in every other service. He earnestly hoped that this ill-advised change would be re-considered.
*MR. LEIF JONESsaid that the statement of the Secretary to the Admiralty was very interesting, and he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on what he called the social reforms in the Navy. There were some Navy Votes which he would not venture to discuss because they required expert knowledge of Naval questions. But it was quite time that those who were interested in social reforms ashore should show some interest in the

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conditions of the sailors afloat. They all recognised the incalculable service which the sailors rendered to the country, and the very least they could do was to make their conditions of service as happy and comfortable as circumstances would permit. He, for one, would look with the greatest possible interest to the publication of the Report of the Committee mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. The improvements the right hon. Gentle man had suggested all pointed to valuable alterations in the conditions of canteens. One of them was as to the conditions under which the tenders of the con tractors for the canteens were accepted. He hoped that under no circumstances should it be imperative to take the tender of the highest bidder. The commander should reserve to himself the right to take a lower bid if he could get a better contractor. He expressed his peculiar satisfaction with the statement of the Committee in reference to temperance in the Navy. He thought the Committee could have hardly made a more valuable suggestion than the substitution of a distinguishing letter for the drinkers instead of for the temperance man. He had always opposed the idea that rum should be regarded as a necessary ingredient in the rations issued to the men on board ship; and he was glad that the men who, after declaration, said that they did not desire a rum ration would not in future be marked in the ships' books with the letter "T," but that the non-temperance men would be labelled with the letter "G" for grog. As a matter of fact the present money allowance was not sufficient to induce the men who did abstain in every case to refuse the rum ration. The grog cost the Admiralty three sixteenths of a penny, and the saving allowed to the men who did not take the rum was nine-sixteenths of a penny, but in their eyes it ought to be more. He was glad that the Committee recommended that the money allowance in lieu of rum should be increased to a penny in order to encourage the growth of temperance in the Navy. The right hon. Gentleman had told the Committee that the allowance of nine-sixteenths of a penny was equal to 10s. a year per head and that that cost the Admiralty £7,000. He did not understand the right hon. Gentleman's arithmetic, when he said that if the
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allowance was increased to a penny it would represent an increase of expenditure of £15,000. He maintained that it would be only £8,000, and the total cost to the country would only be £15,000. When the happy time arrived when the rum ration was abolished altogether, the total cost would be only £60,000, and not £88,000 as the right hon. Gentleman had said. He could understand that there might be difficulty with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury in getting this additional sum; but he could say that it would be an experiment extremely cheap at the price. The indirect effects of this issue of rum no one could calculate. He wondered how many accidents and cases of insubordination were due to it! He ventured to say that the indirect cost arising from these was not £60,000 nor £600,000, but incomparably more. When he brought this question up last year he was the recipient of a great many letters —some of them abusive because, as the writers said, he wished to deprive poor Jack of the only comfort he had on his perilous voyages round the world. But he had had a letter from a man who had served twenty years in the Navy and who had had considerable experience of the system of issuing grog as a ration. The letter was as follows —
"Sir, you are quite a dark horse in His Majesty's Navy, so have nothing to fear. I take it the reason you are interested in the rum question is from a knowledge you have of the evil effects it has upon the men generally — quite so. Now let me please write down just a few of them. First and greatest, the boys are taught by the men to drink, as the lads are often enticed by the cook of the mess to have a drink out of the basin at dinner-time for helping generally with the mess duties. The men barter with their grog, so are able to get two or more allowances. Many teetotalers take their grog up and give it to their messmates in return for work done in the mess. A ration or more of grog and a pipe of ship's tobacco (in tropical weather) make a man drowsy, disagreeable, and unfit for duty. Sentries have been known to break into the spirit room and drink rum till they have killed themselves. If you wish to get a domestic job done, you have to mortgage your grog, for money is of no value at sea.
"The warrant and the petty officers that handle and issue it are always able to have a good taste of it, in addition to their allowance. The plus or waste does not go down the scupper hole.
"It fills your cells on board ship.
"It fills the defaulters book.
"It keeps a large stall of ship's police.
"Most all minor punishments carry with it stoppage of grog, hence discontent. It court

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martials warrant officers, disrates petty officers; seamen and mariners, etc., lose good conduct medals and good conduct badges. It causes half the unnecessary clerical work in the Navy and creates thousands of stop-grog books.
"It is more dangerous than gunpowder, and requires greater supervision. It spells its own name (ruin). Therefore it should he wiped out of existence on board man-of-war, and the man who causes this revolution will be confer ring a lasting benefit on our seamen and the nation, and whose reward should be a monument higher than Nelson's."
That was a letter from a man who had been twenty years in the Navy, and who added to that experience a power of keen observation. He did not think anyone would say that he exaggerated the dangers and expense caused by the rum ration, and he hoped the savings allowance would be increased. In the interest of the efficiency of the Navy it was desirable to put an end to the rum ration. The most efficient Navy in the world —well, he would not make comparisons —but the one which had most recently gained the admiration of the world, that of Japan, supplied no spirit ration to the men on their ships. The United States did away with it forty-five years ago in the course of the civil war, and he thought the universal testimony of the admirals and officials of that Navy was in favour of their system. Therefore, he thought our Navy would gain by the abolition of the ration, and it would be a wise step to give the new men who joined the Navy the increased money allowance without the option of rum. That would not interfere with the men who were accustomed to it. He re-echoed the words of the right hon. Gentleman that "on the well-being of the men depended the strength of His Majesty's Navy," and because he thought that this course would tend to the well-being of the Navy he ventured to urge it with all earnestness upon the Government.
MAJOR SEELYsaid he wished to endorse every word that had fallen from the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite with regard to the undesirability, so far as he had been able to ascertain from inquiries among sailors with whom he had been brought into contact, of abolishing the present system under which the men made their own clothing. It appeared to him on all grounds that whatever an Englishman could do for himself he should be left to
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do, although that was a policy which Government offices tried to get away from. If once the Admiralty instead of the men made the clothes, there would be a tendency to approximate naval uniforms to military uniforms. The naval uniform now was the healthiest uniform because the men made it themselves and they would not wear what was not comfortable. The military uniform constricted the throat, interfered with the circulation of the blood, prevented the chest expanding, interfered with the heart's action, and prevented a man from doing any useful work for fear of splitting his coat. It was impossible for anyone acquainted with the uniforms of the two services to sit silent while a proposal was made that the sailors' dross should be turned into those foolish things that men in the Army were forced to wear. He wished for some explanation about sub head M. The item for clothes for seamen, boys of the Fleet and Coast Guard on shore showed a reduction of £44,127, which, coming from a total of £344,374 meant a reduction of nearly one-seventh. Of course the reduction might be highly desirable, but it had occurred to himself and a few others that an explanation of how the supplies for this year were being affected might be given. From what they had been told it could not be accounted for by any reduction of the personnel of men and boys in the Navy; therefore he was led to believe that it must be caused by a reduction in the number of the Coast Guard. That seemed more likely, as they heard that three coastguard stations had been abolished this year and it might be that these men's clothes were taken off the Vote. He would therefore ask his hon. friend for some explanation of the reduction.
*The CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. Lambert, Devonshire, South Molton)said the reduction was due to a decrease in the requirements for reserves of clothing.
MAJOR SEELYsaid that if the hon. Gentleman looked at subhead M. he would find that the reduction was in regard to the issues made. He would therefore ask him to give an assurance that there should be no reduction in the clothing issued to the Coast Guard or

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in the reduction of the numbers of that force. Although that assurance had been previously given, it appeared to have been disregarded.
MR. ARTHUR LEEdesired to support the protest made by the hon. Member for the Abercromby Division against any proposal to militarise the dress of the Navy. It was a small matter, but it might have very serious consequences, not only in the way of decreasing the agility and efficiency of members of the Navy, but also upon recruiting and on the popularity of the service. As to the question of the men making their own clothes, he did not pretend to be able to form an opinion as to whether the clothes provided by a paternal Government would be better in cut and quality than those made by the men, but there was one very important point involved, and that was the importance of encouraging men who would not spend the whole of their lives in His Majesty's service to learn some trade which would be of use to them in civil life. That observation applied not only to the Navy, but also to the Army. He wished to raise a small point under subhead M. with reference to the clothing of the Naval Volunteer Reserves. He had no practical experience of the question, as he had never gone into it very carefully, but there was considerable feeling, he understood, among the Naval Reserve Volunteers at the delay of the Admiralty in giving a decision as to a free kit after three years service. That had a detrimental effect upon recruiting and upon re-engagement of men in the force. It was a small question and the amount of money involved would be very small. The men got a free kit, and at the end of three years the man who devoted himself to his duties found that his clothes were worn out and he had to buy a new kit for himself. That did not seem just towards men of experience and service. What happened in many cases was that the man left the service and then re-entered the next day as a recruit and got a new kit. He believed the demands of the commanding officers of the Royal Naval Volunteers were very moderate. They only asked that 30 per cent. of new kits should be issued to them annually, and said that that would enable them to meet the case of those men who wished to re-engage. He urged the right hon. Gentleman to get a
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decision upon the point speedily. The question had been under consideration for some years, and while it was hanging on the men were dropping off, which was a thing the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to see any more than anybody else. So far as the main object of the right hon. Gentleman's statement was concerned, he would prefer to defer expressing approval or disapproval until he had seen the Report. That which the right hon. Gentleman had outlined seemed admirable in spirit, but he thought the Committee must be given time to read and digest the Report before they were asked to discuss it.
MR. HUNTsaid the hon. Member for the Appleby Division, who thought a great many accidents in the Navy were due to rum, must have forgotten how very good the Admiralty rum was and how very little found its way to the men nowadays. What they received was not enough to get them "forrard" at all. So far as he could see, the men at the present time were well dressed; that was to say that they had clothes in which they could move about. What they complained of was that it cost a bluejacket £3 and the petty officers and others £5 a year for the upkeep of their uniform. That was a serious amount to ask these men to pay, especially as their wages were considerably less than those of the same class of men employed on shore in the dockyards. As he understood, a carpenter's crew on shipboard received from 2s. 4d. to 2s. 11d., whilst the same class of man on shore received 6s.; shipwrights and carpenters on shipboard received from 4s. to 4s. 9d. and on shore 6s. He also asked why all mechanics in the Navy save carpenters were supplied with tools. He thought it extremely hard that men serving on board ship whose lives were certainly far harder than those of the men who worked in the dockyards ashore should be paid considerably less.
MR. BRAMSDONjoined in the protest against militarising the dress of the Navy. One of the grievances the men had for many years put forward was that they had to maintain their kit. their contention being that they ought not to be expected to do so. The Civil Lord of the Admiralty had stated in reply to questions from him that if the

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Admiralty supplied a free kit to the men it would cost the Government £350,000 a year. That sum was now practically taken out of the wages of the men, as they did not receive more than they did forty or fifty years ago. He thought the men ought to be helped in that direction, and he trusted that whatever course might be adopted by the Government something would be done in the direction of giving the men a free kit. With regard to the standard 6d. ration and the remaining 4d., he would like to know whether the men would be able to get forth at extra 4d. rations as good in quality and as much in quantity as they got for 4d. at the present time, because other wise many men might prefer not to take a portion of their rations in cash. He heartily supported the hon. Member for the Appleby Division in reference to the steps being taken to promote sobriety among the men. He could give serious accounts of the evils that had arisen in the Navy from the use of rum. He asked whether the Secretary to the Admiralty could give any assurance with regard to the can teens in the Royal naval barracks in the three large naval ports. They had large canteens, and he wished they were smaller. In the town he represented a new system had been adopted in the barrack canteen of having a temperance restaurant, he believed with great success. Unfortunately, that had to be worked by private money, and he would like to see the Admiralty spend some money in that direction, as it would tend towards increased sobriety.
*MR., LAMBERTsaid, with regard to the remark by the hon. Member for Portsmouth with reference to the temperance canteen, that it would be a great satisfaction to the Admiralty to spend money in that direction if it could be done. He desired to dispel any idea there might be of any militarisation of the dress of the Navy. Any change of uniform would be useless and was utterly foreign to the ideas of the Admiralty. The fact was that the clothing was not made by the men themselves, because in the majority of cases the men had not the time to make it, even if they were skilled tailors. The clothing was made by one or two old hands who had sewing machines on board ship, and who had a
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monopoly and charged what they liked. The Committee on Clothing invited the men to express their views on the subject, and the men expressed their opinion that ready-made clothing would be of value to the men themselves, and would be-warmly welcomed. The Admiralty had no idea of any stilted or wooden-headed system in dealing with the men. The explanation of the reduction under Sub head M, Clothing of the Fleet and Coast guard, was very simple. That reduction was due entirely to reduction in stocks. It was recommended by the Committee, which sat from May to October, 1905, that in future instead of a nine months' reserve of clothing, a six months' stock should be kept. That was the whole meaning of the reduced Estimate under this subhead for the current year. The hon. Member for Ludlow had asked whether the articles to be supplied in the new canteens were to be supplied to the men duty free. All the dutiable articles were now supplied duty free, in fact, the 10d. ration was valued outside the Navy at 1s. 3d.
MR. HUNTsaid the Question he put was whether the extra food supplied would be duty free.
*MR. LAMBERTsaid that was a matter which they would consider when the Report was published. It would not be fair for anyone who was cognisant with the recommendations of the Report to discuss it before it was before the House. The whole of its recommendations would be fully considered by the Admiralty which would do its best to remedy the grievances which were brought out last year. The result of the adoption of the recommendations of this Committee would be in the direction of removing the grievances which existed. All the Admiralty desired to do was to add to the comfort of the men and prevent them from paying an undue amount for any articles they bought on board ship. The cost of free kits would be about £325,000. The cost for each man, if he got free what he now paid for, would be about £3 5s. There were a trifle under 100,000 men, and therefore the cost would be about £325,000 a year. He was afraid that he could not hold out any hope that the

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free kit would be granted. In some quarters they were asked to reduce the Naval Estimates, while at the same time they were asked to increase the expenditure on various items.
MR. ARTHUR LEE: There has never been such a request from this quarter of the House.
*MR. LAMBERTsaid a good many Members had asked that they should reduce the cost of the Navy, but he, at any rate, absolved the hon. Gentle man from any desire for reduction. Personally, he was one of those who believed in economy while giving the country value for their money. It would not be in order to discuss that question, but obviously if the hon. Gentleman was not satisfied with the present standard of naval expenditure he was very difficult indeed to satisfy.
MR. BRAMSDONsaid he would like a specific answer to the question whether for the extra 4d. they would get the same quality and quantity of rations as they got now.
*MR. LAMBERTsaid, as the right hon. Gentleman had stated in his opening remarks, they would be able to get a better standard of value.
MR. BRAMSDON: At the same price?
*MR. LAMBERTsaid they would get a better standard of value. He ought to say that those recommendations had not been adopted yet, but it was believed that they would produce the result that the men would get a better ration at a possibly cheaper price, because the canteen contractors would be looked after much more carefully. The rates which by competition they were now asked to pay would be very considerably reduced, and fair value would be given for the canteens.
MR. ARTHUR LEE: What about the Naval Volunteers?
*MR. LAMBERT: The Secretary to the Admiralty will answer that.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid the present Board had not been able to arrive at a definite decision, and he did not think that he could make any promise on the subject. He could not go beyond what he had said in answer to a Question that afternoon. He did not think they could very well differentiate between the Army and the Navy; the Army was in course of reconstruction at the present moment, and the Volunteers formed part of the reconstruction. He had by no means abandoned hope of dealing with the matter; he thought he could give the hon. Gentleman that assurance.
MR. T. L. CORBETTasked whether the Estimate for the clothing of the Coast Guard was to be reduced. Was the amount to be reduced owing to the reduction of the number of the Coast Guard?
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: No; there is no connection between the reduction and the clothing of the Coast Guard.
MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid surely the amount of clothing required would be less if they were going to have fewer men.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: We are not discharging them.
*The CHAIRMANsaid the question of the number of the Coast Guard, which apparently was the real objective of the hon. Member, did not arise on this Vote.
MR. HAVELOCK WILSONsaid he was rather surprised that the Admiralty had not made up their mind to supply the clothing of the men of the Royal Navy. He had always looked upon it as a great hardship that men receiving a small amount of wages —stokers, able seamen and boys —should be called upon to buy their own kit. The hon. Gentleman said that it would cost £325,000 a year. What of that? He looked upon the clothing as part of the pay that was due to the men, and he had expected more from a Liberal Government than they had heard. Certainly the Government ought to provide the men with clothing. Men who joined the Army were provided with clothing and free kit. Why should not the

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same system be extended to the Navy? The present system had no doubt been in existence many years, but they were now living in an age of progress, and he thought the Government ought to make up their mind, even at the cost of £350,000 a year, to supply free kits. The Navy cost about £30,000,000 a year, and, compared with that total, £350,000 was a small sum. He considered that the men were entitled to have their clothing provided, and as one connected with the sea he entered his protest against the attitude of the Government. He had thought that the Government were going to effect a reform in that direction, and, therefore, he had not said much on the Estimates. He thought he was right in saying that the majority of the men did not make their own clothes; generally the work was done by handy tailors on board. It was right and proper that the Government should supply the clothing, and next year, if he had an opportunity, he would certainly have something to say upon the matter. While he was not prepared to move a reduction of the Vote now, he expressed his surprise and entered his protest that the Government had not done something in the direction of supplying the men with their clothing.
MR. ERNEST LAMBasked whether they were to understand that the representatives of the men favoured an alteration for the supply of ready made clothing, instead of getting the material.
*MR. LAMBERT: So the Committee is informed.
Vote agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES, 1907–8.
2. £4,060,000, Supplies and Clothing.
SIR CHARLES DILKEasked what had been done with regard to the ventilation of the Army Clothing Factory.
*The FINANCIAL SECRETARY OT THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BUCHANAN, Perthshire, E.)said that the recommendations of certain scientific experts,
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who had been consulted, had modified to a certain degree the proposals of the Home Office. These recommendations had been carried out, and the result had been vastly to improve the condition of the atmosphere in the factory.
MR. SHACKLETONasked whether periodical readings were taken of the state of the atmosphere.
*MR. BUCHANAN: Yes.
MR. SHACKLETON:Are they taken by officers from the War Office, or by officers from the Home Office?
*MR. BUCHANAN: They are regularly taken by a medical officer.
Vote agreed to.
3. Motion made, and Question pro posed, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,671,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for Armaments and Engineer Stores, including Technical Committees, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1908."
*MR. BELLAIRSsaid that not alone the Army but much more the Navy was concerned with the question he intended to raise, but they had the advantage of being answered in connection with the Army by a Cabinet Minister who was a great authority on explosives, having served for years on the Explosives Committee. It was important to bear in mind in discussing this Vote in reference to explosions of cordite in the Navy that the same cordite was used in the Army. He proposed to instance a few cases of spontaneous combustion which affected the cordite used by the Army. The question was an extremely serious one, and it was far more serious than the cordite question raised in 1895, which resulted in turning out the Government of that date. There had been many explosions of late, and many disasters with smokeless powders in other navies; and therefore he thought the attitude they ought to adopt was that suggested by Bismarck, who took

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as his maxim in such matters that for the defence of any country it was the duty of the Government to provide the Army and Navy with the best weapons of offence and defence that money could procure. The Government would be judged by the way they grappled with this question and by the way they showed their determination to provide the Navy and the Army with the most efficient cordite without regard to the expense, so long as the safety of the lives of the men was endangered. Of course the Government could not be held responsible for the spontaneous explosions that had taken place either afloat or on shore. They could not be responsible for the cases of spontaneous explosion which occurred on the "Fox," at Woolwich, and in the two land magazines in India during the last ten months. They could not be liable for explosions which had occurred owing to the absence of refrigerating machinery up to the time they took office. It was well known that cordite was a thing which was bound to deteriorate with storage or if the temperature got above 70° F. Consequently there was a great necessity for the immediate introduction of refrigerating machinery. The Government could not be held responsible for the fact that a quantity of an adulterated explosive or doctored cordite had been seized at Messrs. Kynoch's, because they could not have anticipated that any firm in this country would have attempted to introduce into an explosive an ingredient which would have the effect of masking the heat test which was the only test that stood between safety and the destruction of our men on shore. It was universally admitted that chloride of mercury masked the heat test; in fact this had already been conceded by the Government. In reply to a question whether the Explosives Act had been contravened by Kynoch, Ltd., adding mercuric chloride which enabled the explosive to defeat the official test, so that it might be in a state of decomposition and yet be passed as satisfactory, the representative of the Government said —
"The addition of even a very minute quantity of mercuric chloride to an explosive of this class does defeat the official test in the manner stated."
That was to say, the cordite might be in a
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state of decomposition, and yet it would pass the test as satisfactory. The Secretary of State for War had also acknowledged that there was nothing in the researches of the Explosives Committee, in evidence over a period of seven years' investigation, and nothing in the report of that Committee which in any way justified a firm in adding mercuric chloride to cordite. That the Government considered the situation a very serious one had been shown by their vigilance in seizing all the explosives containing chloride of mercury. He understood that about sixty-five tons of adulterated cordite were lying at Woolwich and more elsewhere which had been seized. He wished to remind the Committee that what had been seized were new explosives which had not undergone any deterioration through high temperature and long storage. They were therefore far safer than those which the guilty firms had already passed into our ships say three or four years ago. The Government had stated their view in regard to this matter through the Home Secretary, who had said —
"I have arranged with my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War for the sub mission to a conference of experts of the question whether it is possible consistently with the public safety to deal with the seized explosive in any other manner than by destruction."
That was to say they were considering the advisability of dealing in this way with new explosives which had not undergone any deterioration through storage or through high temperatures, and they thought the position was so serious that it was necessary to appoint a Committee of experts to consider whether they should destroy this adulterated cordite or deal with it in some other way, and all this time there remained both afloat and ashore cordite which had been doctored by mercuric chloride, which defeated all tests to which it had been subjected, lying in storage perhaps for five, six or seven years. So long as it remained there, he would press to know whether the Government proposed to withdraw it. He understood that mercuric chloride had been added by Messrs. Kynoch and the National Explosives Company and one other firm. He omitted to mention the third firm as it was some years ago with German mitro cotton of which the

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firm were unaware that it had been treated with mercuric chloride. Had instructions been given to put this untested cordite containing mercuric chloride in safe places where it would not be a danger to the lives of soldiers and sailors? They all knew that cordite and smokeless powders became dangerous after lying in storage and in hot temperatures. There had been an explosion on the '' Revenge '' arising from cordite which was only five years old, and which had been on board only four years. In the case of the "Fox" explosion the cordite was eight years old, and had only been on board for two years. That showed that even with good explosives there was great danger which could only be guarded against by frequent testt. Suppose mercuric chloride had been added, then the heat test would have been rendered useless, and if that ex plosive were put in very hot magazines it might deteriorate so rapidly as to cause explosions such as those which occurred on board the French battleship. That showed the seriousness of the situation. There had been two explosions in land magazines in India, and to show the necessity of the Government's being perfectly candid in this matter he would recall to the mind of the Secretary of State for War a question which he addressed to him in this House not long ago. The hon. Member for Norwood asked whether there had been any spontaneous explosions in land magazines during the year 1906, and the answer given to that question was a little misleading. The right hon. Gentle man said —
"There had been no explosions in land magazines under the control of the War Office."
Now as the magazines in India were land magazines though not under the control of the War Office, he contended that that answer was somewhat misleading. At any rate it was the War Office that conducted the inquiry into the causes of the explosions in land magazines in India. Subsequently he asked a question whether it was not true that there had been two explosions in land magazines in India, and the answer returned was in the affirmative. Hon. Members were aware of the circumstances under which an explosion
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occurred on board the ''Revenge'' and on board the "Fox," and the Government stated that they were not due to deterioration. With regard to the "Revenge," he traversed the Government's statement altogether, because that cordite had given a very bad heat test and the only safe course was to throw it overboard. With regard to the cordite on the ''Fox'' the Government said —
"It is supposed that the cause was high temperature acting on a weak spot in the cartridge."
It seemed quite absurd to talk about weak spots in a cartridge, for that was something which would only excite the merriment of midshipmen afloat. It was quite certain that cordite did not explode unless it had deteriorated or decomposed and it was this decomposition that of course produced so called weak spots. The reason why he asked who were the makers of the cordite which exploded in the land magazine in India and in the "Fox" was very obvious. It was necessary to show that even good cordite exploded if kept for a certain time, or subjected to high temperatures. There was no suggestion of mercuric chloride in connection with the "Fox" and the Indian explosions, for the cordite was manufactured at the Government establishment at Waltham Abbey, and why the Government should have re fused to give the name of the maker passed his comprehension. The real truth of the matter was that there could be no reflection whatever on the makers when the cordite was from five to eight years old. The argument was clear. If that cordite had been subjected to the heat test a short time be fore, its dangerous state would have been detected and the ship never have been within an ace of destruction. On the other hand the Kynoch cordite with mercuric chloride would, even if deteriorated, appear perfectly good under the heat test. That was why he pressed the Government for a statement that they would bring about immediately the withdrawal of the doctored cordite afloat and ashore. The "Fox" explosion occurred on 31st October, 1906. The representatives of the War Office went out, and, he believed, they brought home samples of the cordite. The next explosion they heard of in this country was the

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disastrous one at Woolwich. It did a great deal of damage, and £25,000 had to be paid in compensation. He was prepared to state on high authority that the samples of cordite which were brought home from the "Fox" were stored in the magazine of the research laboratory at Woolwich, and that it was this cordite which exploded there on 11th February last. The explosions which he had instanced showed the extraordinary danger of trifling with this question of cordite ashore and afloat. The hon. Member for Norwood had asked whether a Report would be presented to the House concerning the explosion at Woolwich. It was most important that they should know all the facts about that explosion, and he desired to impress on the Secretary of State for War that they should be taken fully into the confidence of the Government, and that the Report of the committee of experts should be given to the House. He maintained that the reticence in the matter was in all probability due to the fact that it was known that the cordite which was in the research magazine was the same kind of cordite which had exploded spontaneously on board the "Fox." The explosion on board the "Fox" and the explosions in the land magazines in India were warnings which came to them when the Estimates were being framed in October. Then came the Woolwich explosion on 11th February before the Estimates were submitted to the House. With the warnings afforded by those explosions alone, apart from all others in foreign navies, the Government ought to have realised the absolute necessity of introducing very liberal Estimates when dealing with this question. Another warning which threw suspicion on the cordite manufactured by Messrs. Kynoch was the explosion which took place in a mine in Wales in February, 1906. The suspicion of the Home Office be came a certainty then —and the War Office should have known of it —that the illegal treatment of explosives was being carried out by this firm which had obtained the bulk of the contracts of the War Office and the Admiralty, and which had been supplying both branches of the Service for many years past. That fact alone should have warned the Government of the necessity of having liberal Estimates in connection with cordite this year, When the suspicion had become
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an absolute certainty in connection with the cordite supplied by Messrs. Kynoch, he found that on 12th March MR. Gold, manager of the high explosives department of that firm, stated that Messrs. Kynoch always added mercuric chloride to their explosives. It was true that in the following month the manager of the factory at Arklow stated that it was only added to their mining explosives, a statement which might be explained by the fact that the Arklow works gave up making cordite about seven years ago. All these things had happened long before the time when the Government appointed a Committee to inquire, and it was clearly the duty of the Government to bring in a Supplementary Estimate in order to provide cordite to replace the deteriorated cordite ashore, and also to replace the doctored stuff which had been bought from Messrs. Kynoch and the National Explosives Company, the other company which used mercuric chloride in its manufacture. It was three months since Messrs. Kynoch's manager admitted that mercuric chloride was used in the manufacture of cordite, and yet the Government had not produced a Supplementary Estimate or ordered the destruction or withdrawal of the dangerous stuff still in the magazines. From an examination of the combined Estimates of the Army and Navy, he found that on ammunition, explosives, and projectiles, the reduction amounted to £651,000, or 31 per cent. on the total. The Committee would remember that this was a reduction on the reduced amount voted last year. He must protest against the economies which were preached in certain newspapers and the argument that because one Government had carried out a reduction another Government was justified in carrying it further. That was a doctrine which would justify the piling up of the load on the camel's back on the ground that if it could carry one load it could carry more. There was no justification for such a huge reduction. The argument which he had advanced might now be summarised. If cordite not treated with mercuric chloride spontaneously exploded, as in the cases he had given, there was far greater reason for taking special care with cordite which had been doctored and which they could not possibly test. It ought to be with drawn at once. We had had lessons enough from foreign navies. In the case

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of the "Iéna" the French Government were given repeated warnings by experts; the Mexican battleship "Aquidaban" was lost through spontaneous combustion of cordite; there was evidence to show that the "Maine" explosion was due to the same cause of spontaneous combustion; and the explosion on the Japanese battle ship "Mikasa" had been attributed by a commission of the Japanese Diet to cordite supplied by a British firm. He happened to know that the cordite which exploded on the "Mikasa" was cordite containing chloride of mercury and supplied by Kynoch's. Shortly before that explosion the heat test had been tried, and the cordite responded perfectly. That was inevitable, because the chloride of mercury effectually masked the heat test. That was an accident which might happen at any moment with the untested cordite now in our own magazines. The Japanese report was a great reflection on British cordite firms, and therefore it could not be too soon known that the Government repudiated the action of those firms which had been adding mercuric chloride and thereby endangering all our battleships, cruisers, and land magazines where that cordite was stored. There had only been four teen years experience of smokeless powders. They were introduced into the Service for the first time in 1892. There had been a certain amount of research work on the part of the Ex plosives Committee, but there had not been the effectual test of long storage in hot magazines. On the other hand, there was only the negative experience of explosions which had occurred, and which showed that cordite could not stand long storage in heat. There was the utmost need for the greatest possible caution in dealing with smokeless powder. Another reason why the Government should act at once, viz., that they could not make up for a lack of cordite on the outbreak of war. A twelve-inch cordite cartridge, after it had been made, had to undergo a three months drying process; therefore it was perfectly evident that cordite could not be replaced quickly if the present supply was destroyed. With regard to the proportion of Kynoch cordite in the two services he could not reconcile the two answers given by the Government. The Admiralty stated that no figures were available to enable them to answer with anything approaching
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accuracy the Questions put in the House. The War Office, on the other hand, had declared that it would not be in the public interest to answer the Questions and to give the information. From those two answers it appeared that the War Office did know the amount, and therefore the Admiralty must know as well. He was not using exaggerated language when he declared that the present crisis was far more serious than the crisis of 1895, which concerned the Army only, whereas this crisis affected the Navy far more than the Army; and it was an occasion for a full and frank disclosure and for the fearless spending of almost any sum. A Supplementary Estimate ought to be introduced this year rather than next year, and it was absurd to suppose that the money could be provided by surpluses from other Votes which were acknowledged to have been cut down to the lowest limits consistent with safety. Therefore, he asked the Government to make a statement which would allay all anxiety on this question, and which would, show that they were taking action to prevent all possibility of disaster by cordite both in land magazines and in those afloat. He begged to move the reduction of the vote by £100.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,670,900, be granted for the said Service." —(MR. Bellairs.)
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington)thought his hon. friend the Member for Lynn Regis had been well justified in raising this vitally important question. No subject ought to produce more uneasiness in the mind of the House of Commons than one in which an idea was involved that there might be, not only in our land magazines but, what was much worse, in our ships at sea, large stores of dangerous material which would not only destroy the most valuable property of the nation, but, worse still, possibly destroy numerous human lives. Therefore, it was right that this question should be probed to the bottom, and it was the more necessary because irregularities had recently come to light which had caused doubts as to the quality of the cordite supplied by various firms. He was not there to speak for the Admiralty; he

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would let them speak for themselves; but for Army purposes he might say that this matter had received close attention for some time past, and they had ample stores of cordite to replace all about which suspicion had been entertained. The matter had been receiving attention for some time past, and the War Office stood to-day in a position which enabled them to know as nearly as was practicable what they were about. He said "as nearly as was practicable" because it was a very difficult subject. He under stood from the speech of his hon. friend the Member for Lynn Regis, that the Government should destroy all cordite in the preparation of which mercuric chloride was used. He thought that there lay at the bottom of the hon. Gentleman's argument a fallacy. Mercuric chloride did not in any way affect cordite. It did not make it more dangerous. What it did do was to mask the use of the heat test. If that were so, it became necessary to subject all cordite in which the presence of mercuric chloride was discovered to close examination by means of other tests. The course the Government had taken was that they had stopped the use of all cordite in which there was any trace of mercuric chloride, and they were taking stringent steps as regarded cordite about which there was any suspicion, to subject it to a different heat test from that to which cordite was ordinarily subjected, one which mercuric chloride could not mask, and, above all, in cases where there was the least doubt, to apply a more vigilant test which mercuric chloride could not mask.
MR. BELLAIRSasked where these tests were being carried out.
MR. HALDANEsaid that they were being carried out wherever they had the cordite. They had taken care to earmark all cordite, and no cordite about which there was any suspicion would be made available for use until it had passed the test. Wherever cordite was under suspicion they had laid an embargo upon its use until tested. He was sure the House would desire the fullest information to be given. The House was entitled to be taken in to the confidence of the Government. The reticence about the Woolwich explosion had nothing whatever to do with mercuric chloride. The Govern-
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ment had there samples of certain ex plosives which it was thought might put us ahead of other nations, but these samples had now, unfortunately, disappeared into space. He could assure the Committee that the cordite which was at Woolwich was not cordite which came from Kynoch's, but cordite from Waltham Abbey, which had gone out to India and there become dubious; it was there for the very purpose of being subjected to investigation. The reason why he was reticent about the Woolwich magazine was that the Government did not wish to go into the details of what was stored there at the time of the explosion. He did not want to go into the consideration of questions of chemistry, but his hon. friend had referred to the action of this compound, which was one of the fastest of explosives, and also to the action of black powder. In black powder the particles of carbon, and the atoms of oxygen which were in combination with something else, lay side by side. These two substances side by side were very stable, and when the flash ignited the powder, the oxygen was freed, and had to travel a certain space, very small, and unite with the carbon, and they had a slow explosion and a great deal of smoke. Nitro-glycerine and gun-cotton, which were the ingredients of cordite, had wholly different properties. In gun-cotton and nitro-glycerine the atoms of oxygen and carbon lay together in one very complex molecule. The atoms of oxygen, when released, rushed very quickly to the carbon and produced a tremendous explosion. The result was that all these explosives were by nature dangerous. It was quite true that black powder, on the other hand, was a safe explosive, but the black powder was feeble and emitted smoke, and any nation which used it would be out of it with other nations. They had, therefore, to deal with chemical problems in order to do what they could to tame the dangerous explosives. The discovery of the means by which to tame these explosives was a very remarkable one. The nitro-glycerine and the gun-cotton had been found to be capable of being rolled together under heat, mixed together with a solvent, and so incorporated that they made a kind of paste which would roll into a gelatinised form and assume a character which made

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them safe to handle and, which was much more important, safe to burn and capable of burning slowly. The process of kneading them together and making them into a horny substance made them perfectly safe, unless they changed their character, and it gave them a quality which remained for some time unchanged. He did not know whether hon. Members realised how perfectly safe a thing cordite was when it was in proper condition. He used at one time to take a great interest in these subjects, and served on the Explosives Committee. He then had a walking-stick made of cordite with which he came many times to that House. It stood safely in the cloak-room for a long time; he observed a judicious reticence about it, and there was nothing in its appearance to cause apprehension. This method of taming cordite and making it a slow-burning but very powerful ex plosive was a great discovery of modern science. But, of course, this substance had to be closely watched lest it should get away from the tame condition to which it had been brought by incorporation and the action of the solvent, and go back to its original character. Consequently it had to be subjected to a very careful test to see that it was in a right condition. All powders of whatever description in which the carbon and oxygen were in the same molecule were prone to deteriorate, particularly under heat. To some extent also the nitrogen compounds might be given off, and might assume by contact with the atmosphere the shape of nitrous acid or nitric acid. In that way reactions might be caused in the powder, making these bad spots and developing heat which might cause local explosions that were communicated to the whole mass. The result was that they had to test in the very closest fashion to see whether the cordite was properly made, and not only so, but they had to test after certain intervals to see whether it had not deteriorated. He said, therefore, that the very best cordite made by the best process could not be trusted if exposed for a prolonged period to an unduly high temperature. That was why they were so careful about the magazines of ships, because in a hot climate like India there was danger, and also in an unduly cold climate,
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where the nitro-glycerine was frozen out. All cordite, therefore, was subjected to the Abel heat test, to set free and disintegrate the nitrogen compounds of which he had spoken. Very elaborate and delicate tests were made by means of fine tissue paper steeped in starch which was so exposed at a given temperature to the action of the fumes from the cordite that it would show certain lines, according as the fumes were given off abnormally quickly or normally, just as they should under the high temperature at which the test was conducted. Now, mercuric chloride had the property of preventing the giving off of the nitrous compounds, it interfered in a fashion which made it impossible for the test to act properly. The Abel heat test, which was the one they generally used, was the standard test for British cordite. The Abel heat test, which depended on the starch paper being affected by the emanations given off from the cordite under heat, was masked by the mercuric chloride, which prevented the emanations from being given off. Coming to the point which had been much discussed, could it be said that the mercuric chloride was useful in cordite, or served any other purpose than masking the heat test? He emphatically said no. He quite agreed that in the case of gun-cotton, on the contrary, mercuric chloride was used for a useful purpose. Gun-cotton, unlike gelatinised cordite, was not a hard, horny substance, but had an open texture. Like everything else easily accessible to the atmosphere, it was apt to be ravaged by bacilli, which formed a fungus that destroyed the gun-cotton. Mercuric chloride, which was a very fine antiseptic, destroyed the bacilli and prevented the fungoid growth. The nature of cordite, however, excluded these fungoid growths, and there was no excuse for using mercuric chloride as an antiseptic in cordite. In the case of cordite there was one purpose only for which, in the opinion of his advisers, mercuric chloride could be used, and that was masking the heat test. He hoped he had made it quite clear. There were other tests to which they subjected suspected cordite, and there was a way in which they could apply the Abel heat test even when mercuric

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chloride was present, for mercuric chloride only masked a certain degree of temperature, and they had only to raise that temperature and so modify the test and they presently found that they got outside the range of the masking operation of the mercuric chloride. Consequently they could at every turn, if only they had reason to suspect it, tell whether the cordite was bad, notwithstanding the presence of mercuric chloride. But it was very wrong to put the mercuric chloride in, because it was well-known that the Abel heat test was normally applied to cordite for our war purposes. They knew pretty well where the cordite was stored which was under suspicion, and they were subjecting everything that was in the least doubtful to the tests which could not be masked by mercuric chloride. It would be absurd to destroy all the cordite regardless of whether it was good or bad, for mercuric chloride did no damage to the cordite, it only masked the test. If there were the least risk to the ships or the men the Government would destroy the whole of the cordite, regardless of expense, but if by testing they could make sure that the cordite was good it was well to do so, always taking care to use the tests which eluded the mercuric chloride. The question had been submitted to perhaps the strongest scientific Committee that had ever sat, on which there were some of the first men of science in the country, under whose advice and guidance everything would be done. They thought that, in a matter of life and death like this, they ought to have the highest authority that could be obtained; they were deeply aware of the gravity of the situation, and were sparing no pains in their power.
MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERthought the Committee were fortunate in having this full explanation and also in the fact that no man in the House was so competent to give it as the right hon. Gentleman. The Committee generally were not so much interested in the details of the question in the form in which it had been raised. But it was of the greatest possible importance that the right hon. Gentleman should have been enabled to make
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the statement he had done. Many thousands of tons of this explosive were distributed throughout the Empire, and there was in regard to it great alarm, which it was imperative to allay in the interests of the services and of the nation. The right hon. Gentleman had made it perfectly clear that the War Office realised there was a danger; that they were aware of the means to be taken to guard against it; that they meant to take no risks; and that they were using effective tests to secure the safety of the lives of the soldiers and sailors and, equally, the safety of the Empire entrusted to their charge.
Lord R. CECILsaid he was not quite so well satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman as his right hon. friend appeared to be. He thought the Committee was indebted to the hon. Member for Kings Lynn for introducing the subject. The Committee did not sufficiently realise the frightful danger that existed in cordite which contained mercuric chloride being allowed to be stored in magazines or in ships. He did not propose to enter into the composition of cordite, which had been clearly explained by the right hon. Gentleman, but the point was quite simple. It was a very important matter in the preparation of cordite which was really safe, and the preparation of gun-cotton that the acids should be thoroughly and completely washed out, if the result was to be a stable compound which would not be liable to spontaneous combustion. Owing to imperfect manufacture, or to the cordite being stored under unsuitable conditions, they might have, without the slightest warning, an explosion of the most disastrous character. They had an appalling list of such accidents. There were the explosions on the American ship ''Maine," on the Mexican ship "Aquidaban," on the Japanese ship "Mikasa," on the French ship" Iéna," on the "Fox," and the "Revenge," and in addition to those there were two explosions in land magazines in India, and the explosion at Woolwich, which might or might not have been caused by the deterioration and spontaneous combustion of cordite. The Committee

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would realise that the danger was exceedingly great. No one had ever disputed the fact that the addition of mercuric chloride did not make cordite more likely to explode. But it did prevent their ascertaining whether the cordite was in a condition likely to cause an explosion. The only way in which that could be ascertained, until the novel tests of which the right hon. Gentleman had spoken, was by the Abel heat test, by which cordite was subjected to a certain amount of heat for a certain time, and if in the course of that period no change took place in the starch paper the cordite was in satisfactory condition; but if during that period a substantial change did take place in the starch paper, the cordite was unsatisfactory. But when mercuric chloride was introduced there was no change in the starch paper for a very long period. The right hon. Gentleman had said the Government protected itself by adopting other tests which would be equally as effective as the Abel test, and he had explained those tests. But they were of an exceedingly delicate character and took a considerable time to carry out.
MR. HALDANEsaid they could use the Abel heat test, and then by these tests carry the examination still further.
LORD R. CECILsaid the right hon. Gentleman spoke from the information supplied by experts with whom he could not compete, but he would certainly suggest that there was considerable difficulty in effectively carrying out the test. If it was so simple a way of getting round the difficulty where mercuric chloride existed, he could not understand why those responsible had not taken that course. He observed that while the right hon. Gentleman said that he had tests quite as effective as the Abel heat test, he also said that he would reject cordite that contained mercuric chloride, and under those circumstances it did not seem to him that these recently-discovered tests were quite so effective as had been suggested. With regard to Messrs. Kynoch, he only desired to say one word. They knew that a considerable quantity of cordite now existing in the magazines of the Army and Navy had been supplied by that firm, and they
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knew that that cordite contained mercuric chloride. The three points that Messrs. Kynoch made in defence of this cordite in a letter to The Times were, first that mercuric chloride was valuable as an antiseptic; secondly, that it was used in Germany—although his information was that it was not used in the German War Office stores.
MR. HALDANEsaid it was used for gun cotton.
Lord R. CECIL: And thirdly, that mercuric chloride would very well pass the heat test. Of course it would. He appealed to the Government to say whether they were taking the best course in this matter. It was their responsiblity, and if any accident occurred after this debate the responsibility would be very great indeed. He could not help thinking it would be far better to find out what cordite had been supplied by this firm and what contained mercuric chloride, and destroy it altogether. It might cost a few thousands of pounds, but it would be a perfectly safe course. The right hon. Gentleman had said they had put an embargo on the use of this cordite until it had been tested. It was not a question of use, but of storage. Were the Government quite certain that this cordite was stored in places where if it exploded it would do no harm? He doubted that even in the case of the Army, but was it so in this case of the Navy? That was a question they were entitled to ask, because although the Vote before the Committee was an Army Vote the question was too important to be restricted by any rules. Was the right hon. Gentleman prepared to say that the cordite supplied by Messrs. Kynoch was stored in such places that if it exploded it would do no harm? Was it stored in any of His Majesty's ships? Surely the Government were not going to allow the question of a few thousands of pounds to stand between the safety of perhaps more than one of His Majesty's ships and their duty! He could not believe that the Government would take such a dangerous course as had been indicated. The observation about the Navy was very much strengthened by what had been said. An hon. Member had asked the other day how much of Kynoch's cordite existed in the

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Navy. The answer was that they did not know where it was, nor could they tell how much there was. Surely that was a condition of things which the House was not going to allow. The authorities at the Admiralty must instantly make every possible inquiry if there was any doubt as to whether the cordite was taken from Kynoch's or not, and they must submit it to a very searching and complete test, or destroy it.
MR. J. WARD:Throw it overboard.
LORD R. CECILagreed. Were they really going to allow the ships to go about at sea carrying these gigantic charges which would blow everybody to atoms if they exploded, without knowing whether the cordite came from Kynoch's or from elsewhere? He thought they were entitled to something more than they had received before they could rest satisfied in the matter. It was not a matter on which any Member of the House, however resolutely attached to economy, would resist for a moment, if the Government said they had been taken in by their contractor, and that further inquiry showed that they could no longer rely on the safety of this particular explosive. If they required a Supplementary Estimate to replace the cordite that had become dangerous, they would be suported by every Member of the House without a word of comment or criticism. He very earnestly hoped that the Government would not allow any question of finance or economy to stand between them and their supreme duty, which was to see to the safety of the services of the Army and Navy.
MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid his noble friend who had just sat down had made an appeal to the Government that they should ascertain what cordite there was in the land stores contaminated by mercuric chloride, and that where it was found it should be destroyed. He understood from the speech of his right hon. friend, that the first suggestion of the noble Lord was being carried out by the Department. With regard to the second point, that a destruction of the cordite should take
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place, being an economist and a Scotsman, he could not help thinking that some of the cordite might be perfectly good. If there were any risk in storing, more particularly as applied to ships in His Majesty's service, then let the cordite be thrown overboard by all means. There were two points on which he would venture to ask questions of his right hon. friend. First of all whether strict injunctions had been given that no further cordite impregnated with mercuric chloride should be received for the purposes of the Army?
MR. HALDANE: Yes.
MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid it was a great relief to the Committee to know that. The second question was as to the amount of cordite which the military forces of the Crown possessed. He understood from what his hon. friend the Member for King's Lynn had said, that a very considerable reduction had been made in the Vote.
MR. HALDANEsaid he had stated that he could only speak for the Army, and he should say that there was ample cordite to replace all that had been dealt with.
MR. J. WARDsaid he had been listening and trying to learn what were the conditions of the contract for the supply of cordite. He understood that it was usual in Government Departments to give specifications of the thing required, and if they were supplied with something they did not intend to have, or they did not require, and that thing had to be destroyed, the cost and expense should fall upon those who supplied the thing that was not asked for. He would like to know what was the position in that respect.
MR. HALDANEsaid the different ingredients of the cordite were given in the specification, and whatever was specified was all that was allowed to be done. Therefore the introduction of mercuric chloride was excluded from the specification, and it was a violation of the conditions of the contract that mercuric chloride should be put in.
MR. J. WARDsaid the question was, supposing this material was to be destroyed, would the loss fall upon the contractors who supplied the thing that was not asked for?
MR. HALDANE: My friend need not be apprehensive.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid he had listened with great attention to the interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but he regretted that he was not able to follow him in the scientific part of his observations. He gathered that the right hon. Gentleman was thoroughly conversant with the whole of the details and that he would do his best to see that no bad ammunition was received in future. It was unknown where this cordite was, and whether it could be traced or not he did not know. He could not see why it was impossible to trace it. He would point out to the hon. Gentleman, who seemed to think that all due care was being taken with regard to the storage of this bad ammunition, that no care had been taken with regard to the storage on ships. The Committee wanted to know what steps would be taken to see that this particular cordite was removed from the ships which were now at sea or in dock. It was absolutely necessary for the safety of the lives of the men and property that something should be done. He admitted at once that great anxiety had been shown by the right hon. Gentleman that something should be done with regard to the Army, but before the debate closed on such an important question they should have some definite assurance with regard to the matter. There were two representatives of the Admiralty present, and they ought to have some assurance that steps were being taken to ascertain whether or not this cordite was stored in ships, and that, if it was so stored, it would be removed. They did not wish to put any difficulties in the way of the right hon. Gentleman or to approach the question from a Party point of view, but really it was of such great importance that it ought to be attended to, and he had no doubt that it would be attended to as soon as possible. They
1298
must have some assurance, however, before the debate closed, that that some thing would be done.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid that, as the hon. Gentleman had correctly stated, he was not really responsible in this matter. The question of cordite was an important one, and, although he might be out of order, he might be permitted to say a few words on the subject. He believed that reference had been made to explosions on board the "Fox" and the "Revenge." He had got an official account of both those occurrences which he would read.
"On 31st December, 1899, at 1 a.m., a 6-inch quick-firing cordite cartridge ignited spontaneously on board 'Revenge' in Mediterranean. The magazine was flooded, and the ignition did not extend, but it was subsequently found that the two other cartridges in the same box were burnt out. On 31st October, 1906, at 1 a.m., a 6-inch quick-firing cordite cartridge ignited spontaneously on board 'Fox' at Bombay. There were three other cartridges in the same box but only two of them ignited."
AN HON. MEMBER: Was that accounted for?
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: It was not accounted for.
''The magazine was flooded, and but little damage was done."
AN HON. MEMBER: Was any damage done in the case of the "Revenge"?
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: No.
*The DEPUTY CHAIRMANsaid he was afraid that if he allowed this matter to be gone into it would raise a discussion on the Admiralty's action. [Cries of "No."] It must be understood that this was only to be an explanation by the Minister, and no discussion on it was to follow.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (continuing):
" In the case of 'Revenge' the cordite was about five years old, and that which ignited in 'Fox' was nearly nine years old. In both instances the cause of the ignition is attributed to a local impurity, causing a weak spot in the cordite, which deteriorated at that point more rapidly than the mass of the charge, and the process was probably hastened through the average magazine temperatures in both ships

1299
being unusually high. It has been recognised ever since the introduction of smokeless propellants that abnormally high temperatures of 100° Fah. and over exercised an injurious effect on cordite, but experiment has recently established the fact that all cordite, however well made, slowly but continuously deteriorates at a rate which varies with the temperature at which it is stored. It has therefore been decided to fit cooling apparatus to the magazines of all ships, commencing with those on hot stations, and those building, and the necessity for artificially cooling land magazines in hot climates has been recognised, and the best method of doing this is now under consideration. The tests to which cordite will be periodically subjected have also been made more stringent, and an additional test will shortly be introduced which it is hoped will enable the condition of a doubtful sample of cordite to be ascertained with much more accuracy than has, up to the present, been possible."
He did not think that he needed to say any more than that. The Admiralty had discovered that Messrs. Kynoch had of late years been adding a small proportion of mercuric chloride to the cordite made by them. The effect of this was to mask the ordinary test. He had been told by an expert that it was doubtful whether the small quantity of mercuric chloride used by Messrs. Kynoch had in itself any deleterious effect upon the cordite, but its addition was obviously most objectionable. The cordite which ignited in "Revenge" and "Fox" was not made by Messrs. Kynoch. He might mention that all the cordite received this year containing the ingredient in question had been rejected, not as being necessarily dangerous, but as being not in accordance with the terms of the contract. With regard to the cordite on board ship they had no reason to believe that it had been injuriously affected, but they had appointed a scientific Committee, with Lord Rayleigh as president, to advise the Admiralty. There was not the faintest reason for apprehension, and all precautions had been and were being taken.
SIR A. ACLAND-HOODsaid that what the Committee wanted was a definite assurance from the Government that the cordite in use would, as far as science could make it, be absolutely free from suspicion of danger either as regards storage or change of climate, so that officers and men should know that they were not dealing with an article which was unsafe. With such an
1300
assurance they need not prolong a debate which was calculated to create a feeling of distrust in the minds of our soldiers and sailors.
MR. HALDANEsaid he felt himself to be in a position safely and properly to give the assurance asked for. There was not the smallest occasion for a scare; not the slightest. All these explosives had a certain element of danger in them. The cordite which was really dangerous was the old-fashioned cordite that contained 56 per cent. of nitro-glycerine. They had now introduced a new form of this explosive called modified cordite, in which the percentage of nitro-glycerine was much less—he thought it was about 30 per cent. or even lower than that. The only cordite about which there had been any question was not the newly made cordite which was much safer. The addition of mercuric chloride did not make the thing dangerous, and the kind to which it had been applied was the safe kind of cordite. Therefore he could safely and properly give the assurance for which the right hon. Baronet had asked. He did not believe the explosives under the charge of the War Office were ever in so safe a condition or of such a quality of manufacture as they were to-day.
MR. C. DUNCANsaid they had heard a good deal about the blue-water school and the two-Power standard, but it occurred to him that there was evidence in the seriousness of this question that they might be a two-Power standard to-day and a no-Power standard to-morrow. He would like to know whether any more cordite was going to be ordered from the particular firm who had been introducing mercuric chloride into their cordite. If ever there was anything dastardly in this world it was the action of a firm which had placed all our military establishments and ships of war in the greatest possible danger. If it was so necessary that in regard to cordite they should have an article above suspicion, why in the name of common-sense could not the nation manufacture its own? If there was such a real danger from tampering with this article surely it should be manufactured by the

1301
State. No matter how serious the position caused by the adulteration of cordite might be it appeared that there were firms in this country who were prepared to take all risks and place the nation in very serious danger without the slightest consideration.
CAPTAIN HERVEY (Bury St. Edmunds)asked whether any portion of each consignment went through any special test before being issued either to the Army or the Navy. If cordite was supposed to be manufactured to a certain standard under a certain specification, and if each consignment had bean properly examined, they would have known at once that bichloride of mercury had been used. He wished to know whether the proper tests were applied in the case of each consignment received, and whether it was found that bichloride of mercury had been used.
MR. MONDsaid he understood that the use of bichloride of mercury was simply to mask the heat test. As that could be remedied by increasing the temperature, it seemed to him a very simple thing to do. He asked whether cordite with this mercuric chloride in it which had been tested had shown any inferiority as compared with ordinary cordite which had no chloride in it. If a superior test was used any defect in the cordite would show itself. With the more severe test, had this cordite shown itself to be deficient, or was it as safe as the ordinary cordite which had passed the ordinary test? If the latter was the case there would be no fear of its exploding spontaneously. He asked whether the sum involved in this matter was a large one, whether the tests showed that the cordite was inferior, whether any more orders would be given to the firm which had deceived the British Government, and whether they could not reject the whole of the stuff.
MR. HALDANEsaid he had not thought it necessary to inquire into what was the amount of money involved. It had been asked whether chloride of mercury made cordite any worse. No; cordite was not any worse for it; it was not in the least more liable to explode. The cordite was
1302
cordite made according to the best and most modern method, and was therefore the cordite least subject to any accident. At the same time, the Government thought it right to subject it to the very closest tests. Every consignment had been tested. Some of these consignments passed the test unduly. The Government found out afterwards that the heat test had been masked by the presence of mercuric chloride, and they had consequently subjected all these consignments to fresh tests. As to the question raised by the Member for Barrow and another hon. Member, he might say that no cordite was being obtained from the manufacturers who put mercuric chloride into it. What the course of the Government would be hereafter he did not wish to say at present. He was sorry to say that the manufacture of cordite by the Government afforded no absolute security. The explosions which recently took place in India were explosions, he believed, of the Government's own cordite. The Government establishment had a distinguished expert at its head. Two or three private firms that he knew had the highest skill at their command, too. He did not think there was very much difference between Government manufacture and private manufacture in the way of ensuring safety. In its earlier forms cordite was a dangerous substance, As now manufactured it was much safer. and the cordite which had been under discussion was of this kind. All cordite, however, required to be carefully watched, because under the influence of causes which could not be guarded against without special precautions—heat and age-it tended to deteriorate and become dangerous.
MR. BOWLESsaid the debate had left some serious doubts in his mind. The Committee would observe that both the Admiralty and the War Office refused specifically to withdraw or to destroy the cordite which they had no reason to know did not contain mercuric chloride. He wanted to contrast their action with that of the Home Office in regard to the same stuff made by the same people. The Committee would remember that when it was suggested that there was no danger in this stuff the Home Secretary

1303
stated in set terms that every bit of it had been removed from the ordinary storage, and that the Home Office had appointed a Committee to consider whether anything could be done except to destroy it at once. He thought that was a strong comment upon the implication which underlay the whole of the statements of the War Office and the Admiralty that there was no serious or imminent danger to be apprehended from this stuff. It was admitted that His Majesty's ships were going about the seas carrying this stuff which no human being could say was not in a dangerous condition, liable to spontaneous combustion at any moment. They were told that a scientific Committee would be appointed. That Committee might take any time for its deliberations, and they were to wait hoping that nothing would happen until the deliberations were completed. The House, the country, and the service were entitled to know what steps were being taken regarding the cordite on board His Majesty's ships at this moment. He wished to know what was being done as to Kynoch's cordite on board the ships. He agreed that it was extremely desirable that no alarmist opinions should get abroad, but the debate had gone far enough to make it absolutely necessary, if alarmist views were to be kept in check, that some plain statement should be made to the House why stuff which the Home Office considered eminently dangerous should be allowed to be carried about in ships and stored in magazines pending the inquiry.
*MR. BELLAIRSsaid he was not altogether satisfied with the statement of the Secretary of State for War. The right hon. Gentleman had made a most interesting speech, but his assurances did not satisfy him on many points, even the most scientific points on which he spoke with authority. There were equally distinguished scientific people who disagreed with the right hon. Gentleman. At the Kynoch trial a great authority, Sir Frederick Nathan, stated that the mercury might be set free in time and cause spontaneous ignition. It appeared, therefore, that mercuric chloride, in the opinion of a scientific authority, not only masked the heat test,
1304
on which point opinion was unanimous, but was dangerous in the explosive itself, especially in the case of cordite which had undergone several years of storage. When his right hon. friend dealt with the question of tests he felt a little bit reassured, but the effect of what was said by the Secretary to the Admiralty was to do away with that feeling. He had refreshed his memory as to the evidence in regard to the trials, and he found that Captain Thomson, one of the highest authorities, said that he knew of no reliable test except the heat test introduced by Sir Frederick Abel. In regard to the use of silver foil as a test, Captain Thomson said there seemed to be some indication that it acted as a mask. In regard to gold foil he said that it vapourised and that a long series of experiments would be required to find whether silver foil or gold foil could be used. With regard to the suggested new test of raising the heat it had been tried and found wanting. The Secretary for War said they had got a reliable test which was being applied everywhere on the spot but the Secretary to the Admiralty said nothing about that test. The Secretary to the Admiralty said that they had appointed a Committee under Lord Rayleigh, and pending their report the untested cordite with mercuric chloride would remain on board the ships. The hon. Member for Barrow had urged that what had been stated in the debate was an argument for the Admiralty manufacturing the cordite. The answer to that was that Government cordite was just as liable to deterioration as that of private firms. Indeed, it was Waltham Abbey cordite that had exploded on the "Fox" and in the land magazines in India, and the argument he had endeavoured to enforce was that the danger could only be guarded against by ventilation, refrigerating machinery, and continuous tests, whereas the doctored cordite was most dangerous of all in that it had never been tested.
MR. C. DUNCANsaid that so far as the Government establishments were concerned they did not adulterate from purely vicious motives.
*MR. BELLAIRSsaid they had no reason to suppose that private firms would ever again act as Kynoch Limited,

1305
had done. If reserves of cordite were accumulated they were liable to deteriorate, and, therefore, what the Government required was capacity for large output, so that if war broke out cordite could be manufactured as rapidly as possible. He had not received from his right hon. friend an assurance that a Supplementary Estimate would be introduced for the purpose of replacing suspicious as well as deteriorated cordite. He very much regretted that in the circumstances he must divide the Committee on this question.
CAPTAIN CRAIGasked whether the same experts would in the future be asked to pass under review the whole of the cordite supplied to the three great Departments of State—the Home Office, the Navy, and the Army— especially the cordite for hot climates. Had the cordite abroad been tested and found deteriorated; and had a new supply been sent out to take its place? He thought that a stronger assurance might be given to the Committee as to the supply of pure and up-to-standard cordite which had been sent abroad; and whether the deteriorated cordite would be returned to the manufacturers. He also wanted to know the number of years it was since the cordite at present abroad or on board His Majesty's ships had been manufactured; and what steps had been taken to throw it overboard if it was found to be decomposed. He understood that the Secretary of State for War had stated that in one case the cordite was nine years old, and in another six years old; he hoped that steps would be taken to destroy all the old cordite. He also asked how it
came about that in a matter where the safety of the Navy and the Army was concerned, the War Office and the Admiralty had to depend on the experts of the Home Office.
MR. HALDANEsaid that the War Office did not depend on the Home Office experts. The standard of the age of cordite varied, according to the diameter of the cartridge. All the cordite which was looked upon with suspicion had been dealt with, and all those things were looked at as closely as they could be by their own War Office experts.
*MR. BELLAIRSsaid that the Secretary for War had stated that cordite M.D. was less liable to deterioration. His impression was that there was no gain in this respect and that cordite M.D. was simply intended to prevent erosion of the guns. He had consulted experts on the matter, who assured him that the M.D. cordite was not one whit better than the old cordite in respect of safety, but that it did lessen the erosion.
MR., ERNEST LAMBasked whether, if it was a fact that Kynochs had supplied cordite treated with mercuric chloride, it was not possible to find out the ships to which that cordite had gone. The Government ought not to have anything more to do with Kynochs; they ought to be struck off the contractors list for having submitted the country to so great a danger.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 23; Noes, 196. (Division List No. 228.)

AYES.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Duncan,Robert (Lanark,Govan

Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry.N.)

Fell, Arthur

Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel

Beck, A. Cecil

Fletcher, J. S.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Bertram, Julius

Gordon, J.

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS Edm'ds

Thomson.W.Mitchell- (Lanark)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hills, J. W.

Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Bellairs and Lord Robert Cecil.

Craig.Captain James(Down,E.)

Moore, William

Craik, Sir Henry

Nield, Herbert

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Armitage R.

Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Allen, Charles P. (Strond)

Astbury,John Meir

Barker, John

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone,N.)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Richardson. A.

Bell, Richard

Holland, Sir William Henry

Rickett, J. Compton

Benn,W.(T'W'rHamlets,S. Geo

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Berridgc, T. H. D.

Hope,WBateman(Somerset,N.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Bethell,SirJ.H. (EssexRomf'rd

Horniman, Emslie John

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Billson, Alfred

Hudson, Walter

Robinson, S.

Bowerman, C. W.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Brace, William

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Bramsdon, T. A.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rowlands, J.

Branch, James

Jones.William (Carnarvonshire

Runciman, Walter

Brigg, John

Jowett, F. W.

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Bright, J. A.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

Brooke, Stopford

Kekewich, Sir George

Sears, J. E.

Brunner,RtHn.SirJT.(Cheshirc

King,Alfred John (Knutsford)

Seddon.J.

Bryce, J. Annan

King.Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

Shackleton. David James

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Laidlaw, Robert

Sherwell, Arthur James

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Lambert, George

Shipman. Dr. John G.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Lamont, Norman

Silcock. Thomas Ball

Byles, William Pollard

Lea,HughCecil(St.Pancras,E.)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Cameron, Robert

Lehmann, R. C.

Snowden, P.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Lever, A.Levy (Essex,Harwich

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Cleland, J. W.

Levy, Maurice

Stanger, H. Y.

Clough, William

Lewis, John Herbert

Steadman. W. C.

Clynes, J. R.

Lynch, H. B.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Corbett.CH (Sussex.E.Grinst'd

Macpherson, J. T.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

M'Crae, George

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Summerbell, T.

Cox, Harold

M'Micking, Major G.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Crombie, John William

Maddison, Frederick

Thomas,SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)

Crooks, William

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Thomas,DavidAlfred(Merthyr

Crosfield, A. H.

Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston)

Thomasson, Franklin

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Marnham, F. J.

Torance. Sir A. M.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Massie, J.

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Duncan,C (Barrow-in-Furness)

Menzies, Walter

Verney, F. W.

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Walker. H. De R. (Leicester)

Edwards, Clements (Denbigh)

Mond, A.

Walton,SirJohnL.( Leeds, S.)

Essex, R. W.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Ward. John (Stoke upon Trent)

Everett, R. Lacey

Morse, L. L.

Wardle, George J.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Waving. Walter

Fenwick, Charles

Murray, James

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Kerens, T. R.

Myer, Horatio

Waterlow. D. S.

Findlay, Alexander

Nicholls, George

Watt. Henry A.

Fullerton, Hugh

Nicholson,CharlesN. (Doncaster

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Gill, A. H.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Weir, James Galloway

Glover, Thomas

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Nuttall, Harry

Whittaker. Sir Thomas Palmer

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

O'Grady, J.

Wiles, Thomas

Griffith, Ellis J.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Haldane, Rt. Hon Richard B.

Partington. Oswald

Williams,Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

Hardy, George A (Suffolk)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Harmsworth, Cecil B (Worc'r)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Harvey,W.E. (Derbyshire,N.E.

Pollard, Dr.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Haworth, Arthur A.

Priestley. Arthur (Grantham)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Radford, G. H.

Helme, Norval Watson

Rainy, A. Rolland

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and MR. J. A. Pease.

Hemmerde, Edward George

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Henry, Charles S.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Higham, John Sharp

Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th)

Question put, and agreed to.

Original Question again proposed.
And, it being after a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being
1308
Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.

NORTH METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC POWER SUPPLY BILL (BY ORDER).
Order read, for Second Reading.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
MR. J. WARDthought that before the Bill passed the Second Reading they were entitled to same explanation of the Bill and its provisions.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. KEARLEY, Devonport)said it was no part of the business of a Government Department to explain what the provisions of a private Bill were, although he would be glad to do so. If, therefore, he did not supply any information, his refusal was meant in no unfriendly sense.
*MR. NIELDsaid that as one of the Members whose names were on the back of the Bill he would be glad to explain what the meaning of it was; but at the same time he thought it was an extraordinary thing and not in accordance with the usages of the House for people to put down Amendments to the Bill and then not be present to support them, especially when their objections only referred to clauses about which negotiations were proceeding. There seemed to him to be a practice growing up to oppose the Second Reading of Bills where it was sought merely to get clauses and no question arose as to the principles of the measure, and this he ventured to think should be discouraged. This Bill was one of a series of Bills promoted by the same company for the purpose of supplying electricity in bulk in Middlesex, and a large portion of Hertfordshire and Essex. The object was to satisfy the democratic Eastern and North-Eastern districts of those counties by taking over their lighting and supplying the needs of the poorer areas, who were exercising a wise discretion in taking a bulk supply instead of embarking on an expensive generating plant. He was told that there was some objection on clauses, but that could be met in the course of a few hours discussion upstairs and most satisfactorily disposed of.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY BILL (BY ORDER).
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
MR. RAWLINSONin moving that the Bill be read a third time that day three months, said he did not do so out of any hostility to the Bill or its object. He thought, however, that it was desirable to call attention to the, way the County Council exercised its powers of borrowing under the supervision of the House in order that there might be some check. Last year he called attention to the Bill in the same way as he was now doing, and it was one gratifying fact that the powers of borrowing to be exercised this year were smaller than they were last. One of the promoters of the Bill had offered to meet him upon one or two points to which he had called his attention, but he still objected, as he did last year, to the period of repayment of loans to local authorities being spread over sixty years. That was an excessive time, and to allow such a state of things was unsound finance. There was a sinking fund established in connection with these loans by the London County Council, but under this Bill they could use it for their own purposes. That again was very unsound finance, because the object of a sinking fund was to create a reserve for a particular purpose. He would like to hear something more about works, alluded to in the excellently drawn schedule, such as the Strand improvements and certain tramway improvements and sites for schools. One would be grateful to know how the steamboats were progressing this year. He hoped they showed a revenue. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words, 'upon this day three months.'"—(MR. Rawlinson.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
SIR EDWIN CORNWALLsaid the hon. Member was quite justified in raising the question, not only by the importance of London County Council finance, but because Parliament had laid down that the House had a right to do so. As the Local Government auditor stated in his Report, the revenue of the London County Council for the last year was £ 14,983,000, and the expenditure was estimated at £ 14,673,000. The reason why the Bill came before the House in this form was because in the old days the Board of Works always brought in a public Bill to deal with the borrowing powers of local authorities, and when the County Council was formed in 1889 that power was transferred to them. The Bill this year was on the same lines as previous years, but the amount was not so large as in last year's Bill. The total borrowing powers were for the Council £ 5,354,000 and for other local authorities £ 1,377,000 — in all £ 6,731,000. Complaints had been made that the County Council were not quite so accurate in their estimates in these matters as they might be. As a matter of fact the powers taken for the following six months were mere machinery and had to be put into the Bill. The powers taken last year would have enabled the County Council to have taken £ 5,000,000 of the £ 6,731,000 they now asked for. In fact it was seldom the full amount was reached, but as amounts could not be shifted from one item to another it was necessary to include the full amount. The Council was very careful not to go beyond the limit of sixty years, and many of the loans were for short periods. The Council had its relations with other local authorities under consideration. The schedule to the Bill gave very full explanation. As to the Strand improvements, the figures, when worked out, would show that the cost was £ 50,000 less than was estimated when the Council went into that large undertaking, and if the Council was not rushed into putting the land on the market it would yield as much, if not more, than the estimate. London owed a debt of gratitude to the Council valuer, MR. A. Young,
1312
for his skilful handling of the huge business and that of the Westminster improvement. Tramway improvements he need not discuss. Educational sites in London were necessarily expensive, and to that no doubt was largely due the fact that the cost per head for the education of London children was greater than that of other places. What would be the result of the steamboat service remained to be seen. It was now only a summer service, and he wished the people of London would give it more support. Sadly he had watched the boats during the last few weeks; but the receipts were improving, and he was sure the steamers were much appreciated by visitors to London. He believed the tramway system would in course of time prove a gold mine for ratepayers, and be compensation for a loss on the steamboats, which loss he hoped would grow less.
MR. RAWLINSON,being satisfied with the explanation, asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
Postponed proceeding on original Question, "That a sum, not exceeding £ 1,671,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for Armaments and Engineer Stores, including Technical Committees, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1908," resumed.
MR. CROOKScalled attention to the fact that while an enormous establishment staff was maintained for ammunition, the charges being increased by £ 220, the wages for workmen had decreased by £ 232,000. Woolwich Arsenal was worse off by 2,500 men than before the South African War. He desired to know if the War Office had a sufficient stock of ammunition, and reminded the Committee that the late Prime Minister admitted in the House that the store was exhausted

1313
a few weeks after the war began. That was a Very serious thing. They had already discharged 10,000 men, and now they were 2,388 below the 1896 level. 1,400 men had been discharged since the Secretary of State for War stated that the average was not to exceed 200. Having regard to the condition of the Arsenal and the number of men employed he wanted to know publicly and plainly whether the Secretary of State for War thought there was a sufficient stock to meet any emergency. He hoped that within a week or two they would get the Ordnance Estimate under discussion and be able to raise the whole subject. It was a considerable embarrassment to him to sit there for a long time trying to raise a question, which was practically out of order, as to the Arsenal and its work.
MR. HALDANEsaid they had an adequate supply of ammunition. The question had been carefully considered and worked out, and they knew exactly where they stood. Of course it was not possible to discuss the real question in which the hon. Member was interested; it would be wholly out of order for him to enter upon it. He would only say that the Government were deeply aware of the hardship which these reductions had caused, and they had done all they could to bring them within the smallest possible compass. Their difficulty was to maintain just such an establishment as would not only provide for their peace requirements, but also enable expansion to take place to meet the emergencies which arose in case of war. He trusted that when the establishment had reached that point—and they had nearly reached it now—they would be able to keep it at that minimum without further reductions, while making its maintenance a first charge.
4. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £ 2,436,000, be granted to his Majesty, to defray the Charge for Barrack Construction, for purchases of Land, and for Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad (including Staff in connection
1314
there with), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1908."
*SIR CHARLES DILKEasked whether it was proposed in the present year to direct any reconstruction of the depots as regarded the recruiting centres, which were the subject of severe comment in the Annual Report of the Inspector-General of Recruiting. He thought they ought to know whether the depots in the recruiting centres, or in connection with the Territorial Bill, though that probably would come later, were to be reconstructed, or in certain cases only. Some £ 50,000 was taken in this Vote for changes in works and fortifications at various stations at home and abroad. About £ 40,000 was taken for works at home, and about £ 10,000 for colonial stations. The changes were of course subject to secrecy. It was only in cases like the Forth, where, in passing over the bridge, they could see from time to time what guns were there, that they could lift the veil. In the early part of the session he alluded to the changes which had been made in the Forth, and every one who passed could see what changes were made from time to time in the armaments. It was notorious that in other cases the recent change was connected with the abolition of the mine fields. That was announced three years ago, and had been proceeded with. That was another matter about which he would like to ask a question. Mine fields were still manufactured at Woolwich for certain purposes abroad. The change which had been made had been carried out at home, but it had been refused by Australia and by India. The Government of India had decided to continue the use of mine fields, as also had the Government of Australia, although they were discontinued at home. They had been abolished, not only in naval ports, but also in commercial ports to which war ships did not resort. The use of submarines had not yet taken place in certain of our ports from which the mine fields had been removed. The Tyne was now defended only by batteries at the mouth. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman

1315
had looked into the matter, and whether he was satisfied with the defences of one or two places where it was admitted that raids might be possible. The Tyne was one of those places, and had been mentioned both by the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. friend, who was a supporter of the blue-water policy; he thought they might fairly take the Tyne as a case in point. Since the change of policy 12-pounder guns had in many cases been replaced by 6-inch guns; but whether they were 6-inch guns or not, or whether they were only half the number of the twelve pounders or whether they were more numerous, nevertheless the chance of a ship running through under their fire was very great indeed. The policy which was being pursued here was different from the policy pursued in other countries. This matter had been under consideration both in Germany and in France, and just as Australia and India had taken the opposite decision to our own so Germany and France had continued in the opposite sense. He would only say that the change was one which was startling a good many people, and as far as commercial ports were concerned he thought that his right hon. friend would see that there was some ground for the anxiety which was felt at places like the Tyne, where there was no more defence at present than an armament which small vessels at night might easily pass. It had been said that the Admiralty had sold the minefields and the Brennan torpedoes as old iron and wire, that they had also sold the land from which the Brennans were worked. There was a very considerable sum of money in the Vote for the selling of land, and he hoped that that meant that the Secretary for War was selling his own land, which had no concern with the Navy Estimates. The story of the Brennan torpedo was not worth going into now, and he would only ask whether this article, which had cost the country an enormous sum of money, was in any degree to be continued, as he saw that there was still a sum of money taken for the Brennan plant. There was a sum of £ 500 apparently for storage. He would like to know what policy that sum of £ 500 represented.
MR. HALDANEsaid the first Question of the right hon. Baronet was in regard to the depots. The condition of these depots required attention in many cases. The accommodation which was necessary varied from many more causes than one, and, in consequence, it was not easy to lay down a uniform standard for all. He had not lost sight of the fact that the depots would become of great importance to the Army organisation; but what they had to look to so far as building was concerned was the comparative urgency of certain works which came first in the list, and which were very urgent indeed, though the other works were not overlooked. The right hon. Gentleman had raised a very large question as to the defence of naval ports and also the defence of commercial stations. As to those the question of policy was of course largely a naval one, though it was true that the question of the War Office arose in connection with that policy. Many of the present defences were the result of the deliberations of General Owen's Committee, who had issued a most exhaustive Report. So far, in this matter, India had preserved her own line; she was reserving the system of mines to which the right hon. Baronet had referred, and in so doing was in harmony with various other Powers. There was only one authority who had decided against the old mine policy and for the policy to which his right hon. friend had referred, but it was not necessary to go into that on this Estimate. The question of the Brennan torpedo was again a question of naval policy, and the naval policy of to-day condemned the use of those fixed torpedoes. The question of the naval defence of commercial bases like the Tyne was one on which they could only rely on the highest naval advice, and it was on the highest naval advice that they had relied in taking such steps as they had.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that, so far as the Tyne was concerned, naval policy or no naval policy, the minefields had gone and nothing had taken their place. No one in Newcastle was satisfied with the present state of things, and he thought there was a responsibility in regard to this port resting upon his right hon. friend.
MR. HALDANEsaid he was quite satisfied that the question of the defence of commercial ports was a big one.
LORD BALCARRESasked for an explanation of the increase in the appropriation-in-aid in connection with the sale of land from £ 30,000 to £ 50,000. He desired to know whether General Owen's Committee was going to overhaul the defences of India in the way they had treated the defences of Hong-Kong, Malta, and elsewhere. It was common knowledge that the recommendations of the Committee, which had been carried out at Malta and Gibraltar, had produced something little short of consternation in the minds of those who were responsible for the defence of those places. Was this Committee going to be allowed to overhaul the Indian system of defence? He would much prefer to leave that question to the Commander-in-Chief and his staff on the spot in India. He was not quite satisfied with what the right hon. Gentleman had said as to the depots. These depots, and certain barracks now occupied by Regular troops, both in this country and in South Africa, were in a condition, sanitary and structurally, little short of shocking. There were several barracks in South Africa which were in a disgraceful condition, while the most notorious example in this country was Piershill Barracks, Edinburgh. Although it was almost impossible to tell precisely how the various sums of money in this Estimate were going to be allocated, it was obvious that the right hon. Gentleman had taken no particular steps to ensure that anything would be done during the present financial year to remedy the state of things existing at Piershill Barracks. The buildings were badly situated and badly drained. The Cavalry had been removed, and he understood that the Artillery was going to replace them. That would not make it any better from the point of view of the drains. It was necessary, to preserve the health of the troops in Scotland, that an entirely new building should be erected. He wished to call attention also to the proposal to erect mess quarters for Army Medical Corps officers on Eltham Common, Woolwich. The natural charm of the land was being ruined. The right hon. Gentleman was
1318
aware of his views on this point. It was a very small common, but it was being absolutely destroyed by the action of the War Office. The Secretary of State had been to Woolwich lately, and he had no doubt visited the common. Hundreds of trees had been cut down quite recently, but he would make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to spare the fine old oak trees. He contested the right of the War Office to attach this common at all. He could not account for the action of the War Office in removing enormous quantities of turf and loam from one part of the common to another. When the reason for this was asked, the right hon. Gentleman stated that it was to improve the surface of the land for military purposes. Then on 4th March they were told that it was to provide officers' quarters. He did not know to what military purposes the right hon. Gentleman referred. It was common land before the War Office had anything to do with Woolwich. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that the common rights had lapsed; but common rights in law did not lapse, and could not lapse.
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That obviously does not fall within this Vote.
LORD BALCARRESsaid they were told on 4th March that the proposal was to erect buildings on part of the land. He submitted that the buildings could not be erected unless the Committee voted money under a subhead of this Vote.
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That may be quite true, but we can only deal with the buildings. The ownership of the land, or the rights over the land, is a different matter altogether.
LORD BALCARRES: I submit that this work is being done by the Works Department of the Royal Engineers, who are in this Vote.
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: You can question the expense of the buildings, but you cannot raise any question in regard to the land.
LORD BALCARRES: I submit that the House of Commons is now being

1319
asked to vote money for the Royal Engineers, who are cutting down trees on land which does not belong to the War Office, and that the Government is proposing to erect at a cost of £ 12,500 buildings on that land. Under this Vote they are now actually spending the initial outlay on the surface of the ground.
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: But the ground is not vested in the War Office. It is in another Government Department, and what we are dealing with here is the question of the buildings. It is not a question whether the War Office is entitled to the land.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid they were now asked to authorise the expenditure of money on buildings, but if they were erected on land which belonged to somebody else, the money might be lost altogether. Were the Committee not entitled to ask that the money should be expended on buildings erected on land belonging to the War Office?
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: We cannot go into the question of title. The Committee are not entitled under this Vote to discuss in detail whether there is a right of common or not.
LORD BALCARRESregretted that he could not pursue the subject, because an injustice was being done not only to the borough of Woolwich, but to the whole community of the East and South of London, who were interested in the preservation of every open space in their neighbourhood.
MR. HALDANE,replying to the reference made to the Owen Committee, said that the great questions of strategy and policy with which they had to deal were not matters which could be judged by those who were not in a position to form an authoritative opinion, and the Government stood by this body, whose practice was founded on the highest principles of naval strategy. The noble Lord smiled. His acquaintance with these things, perhaps, was so vast that he knew more than was known to the general staff or the Board of Admir-
1320
alty. The Owen Committee remained entitled to their respect, and the Government intended to carry out their principles.
SIR F. BANBURY,referring to the defective state of the drains in the barracks at Edinburgh, said that now the Scots Greys had been removed, he understood that there would be no object in spending money on the barracks, unless they were to be utilised for the accommodation of other troops. If they were to be used for other troops, the drains ought to be put right. He found from the Estimates that the reconstruction of the drainage in the barracks at Kingston was estimated to cost £ 3,500. A footnote stated that the Estimate had been reduced from £ 4,300. As a rule, drainage works exceeded the amount at first estimated, and he would like to know what was the reason for a reduction in this case. He also asked for further information with respect to the item in the Vote for hospital accommoda-at Portsmouth.
Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted; and, forty Members being found present—
SIR F. BANBURY,: continuing his speech, said that on page 75 there was an item for cavalry schools. The Treasury had sanctioned an expenditure in 1906-7 of £ 8,000, but the expenditure up to 31st March this year only amounted to £ 2,000. It could not be good policy to spend only one-fourth of the amount authorised more than a year ago. Then there was the question raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean in regard to the sale of land. The amount this year was £ 45,000, whereas last year the sale of Colonial land alone was only £ 39. This was really a most important question, because one did not know what might happen if the land was sold in that kind of way. The land might be wanted in the future; and the country would have to pay a great deal more for it than they had formerly received for it. Then there was the item, on page 78, of fortifications on the island of Malta, which last year amounted

1321
to £ 5,440, and was this year reduced to £ 1,300. It did not seem to him to he wise to make such a very large reduction.
*SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that the item for the sale of land might be connected with the sale of stations which had been used for Brennan torpedo work. The policy in regard to submarine mines had been abandoned under the auspices of two right hon. Gentlemen who had both to do with the Army and Navy. As late as December last there was a transfer of expenditure from one head to another, the War Office asking for it as urgent although it concerned submarine mining. That was a case of virement The Committee ought to have sonic information as to what lands were sold.
*MR. BUCHANANsaid that the War Office, acting on the Report of a Departmental Committee that reviewed the land belonging to the Department not at present used for military purposes, expected to be able to sell in the coming year a considerable number of detached portions of land. The area of land in possession of the War Office was three times what it was twenty years ago, and he hoped that the changes reported upon would enable them to dispose of a larger amount of land than in previous years. As to cavalry schools mentioned by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, he believed that £ 2,000 was the estimated expenditure during the current year.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid that the probable expenditure to March, 1907, £ 2,000, had already been passed; and there was to be voted for the year ending March, 1908, £ 6,000, making in all £ 8,000.
*MR. BUCHANANsaid that he was in error, and that the work was now in hand. Money had been taken in the Estimates for drainage works at Kingston, but there had been found possible a diminution of the cost. As to the Portsmouth works, the full amount of the Estimate would be spent in the current year.
MR. BRIDGEMANsaid he would like to ask a question about Army hospital service and accommodation and annual maintenance and repairs. From the details given it was impossible to tell the way in which the money estimated for would be spent, and whether it would be spent on hospitals or barracks or rifle ranges. He would like some assurance that the money to be spent on hospitals had not been reduced. He did not think it desirable to produce the Estimates in such a form as made it impossible to tell whether the charge for hospital accommodation had been reduced or not. He hoped it had not.
MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid he found under the heading of "various Colonial services" an Estimate for £ 10,000 for adapting defences to modern requirements, and he wished to know whether it contained any sum for the defence of St. Lucia. He understood that St. Lucia was to be regarded as a place which might potentially become a place of arms, if needed, ready to be occupied by a force at any moment. Was any of this money to be applied in mounting guns at St. Lucia in the present year? It was a matter of considerable importance, having regard to our West Indian Possessions, especially as we had not at the present time, in the view of many hon. Members, an adequate naval force in West Indian waters.
*MR. BUCHANANsaid that this Vote did not include any money to be spent on St. Lucia. It was an item necessitated by the report of the Owen Committee, and the sum was the estimate of the probable expenditure for this year on the work of adapting the defences of our various Colonial stations to modern requirements. The sum would amply meet all the expenditure they would be called upon to defray during the present year. The hon. Member for Shropshire had complained that the Estimates for the year were not quite so definite as they should be about hospital service and accommodation. The reason was that there had been a change in the Department which administered Army hospital service and accommodation, but

1323
a full examination of the Estimates would show that an increased sum was being expended in the present year upon those services.
LORD BALCARRESasked if under the recommendations of General Owen's Committee works would be undertaken at Hong Kong or the Cape.
*MR. BUCHANANsaid that it would be impossible to say, because the order in which the work at different colonial stations would be undertaken had not yet been settled. The matter had been referred to a Committee of the War Office.
LORD BALCARRESsaid his point was that there was a sum of £ 10,000 being taken for the purpose of adapting the defences of our various Colonial stations to modern requirements, and they were not informed what the stations were with which it was intended to deal. The hon. Gentleman said that it had not yet been settled whether the money would be applied to Hong Kong, the Cape, Malta, or elsewhere. He thought the Committee ought to know where the money was to be spent. They knew that a good deal of work had already been done at Malta and the Cape, that something had been done at Gibraltar, and, he thought, also at Hong Kong; but they ought to know the work which was going to be done at each of these particular stations. The hon. Gentleman had admitted that the work had made great progress, and he wished to know why no entry had been made in Statement 3 to show what money had been spent on that service.
*MR. BUCHANANsaid that the Report of the Committee only came to the knowledge of the War Office in the month of March. That Report recommended that various works should be carried out, and it was impossible, when the major part of the Estimates had been settled, to put in a specific sum for each of the works. A certain sum had been put into the Estimates, and it would be expended on the most urgent of those services. The service to which the noble Lord had referred was undertaken, not in consequence of the Report of the Committee,
1324
but long before that Committee reported. He could not promise that the authorities at the War Office should indicate the order in which the work was to be done.
MR. T. L. CORBETTcalled attention to the improvement of rifle ranges. He thought the amount of £ 5,000, which was apparently all that was spent last year, was totally inadequate for the purpose. The hopes of the success of the Territorial Army were to a great extent based on the patriotism of the Volunteers, whose efficiency largely depended on these rifle ranges. The Committee was voting with a light heart, and without either reflection or criticism, millions of money, without there being a single supporter of the Government on the back benches. He ventured to say of the many flagrant instances of the contempt with which the Government treated the Committee this was the most flagrant.
CAPTAIN CRAIGasked whether the item of £ 5,000 covered the various rifle ranges in Ireland as well as Great Britain, and whether the improvements asked for in the Irish rifle ranges had been made, and, if not, why not. In Ireland, there were three ranges, only one of which was thoroughly up to date; the other two were by no means adequate. The garrison also used the range, the condition of which had become a source of danger, to which the attention of those in authority ought certainly to be called. Engineers had been down frequently, but the truth of the matter was that although large sums of money were voted for these ranges, the one which he referred to was being starved, and the starving of a range frequently meant considerable danger; they were also in great difficulty owing to the situation, of the butts and targets, which were exposed to the full force of the elements, firing practice being thus rendered very difficult. A large sum of money was mentioned on page 77 of the Estimates, but he was not quite sure whether it. was for the Territorial Army scheme. A very trifling portion of that sum would make the range to which he referred not only safe but up to modern requirements; and he was quite sure he had only to call attention, to the matter to enlist the sympathy

1325
of the right hon. Gentleman and cause him to inquire into the matter of the three ranges to which he had referred.
*MR. BUCHANANsaid that the item in the Vote had nothing to do with the Territorial Army Scheme, and he thought that the hon. Gentleman was under a misapprehension in thinking that the sum in the Vote was for the purpose of the upkeep or the expenses of rifle ranges. If the hon. Member carefully examined the Estimate he would find that it was for barracks and rifle ranges, and if he looked at page 79 he would find that there was another sum for rifle ranges. There was no desire in the Estimates to avoid setting aside sums of money for both the construction and maintenance of rifle ranges.
CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid he had made a statement with regard to the ranges, and he had asked whether they would fall under the Territorial Forces Bill or not— that was to say, whether county associations were to be formed in Ireland, the same as in England, or whether they were to go on in the old way.
*MR. BUCHANANsaid they would go on in the old way. The rifle ranges to which the hon. Gentleman referred would not come under the Territorial Forces Bill, but came under the Vote.
MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he was afraid that he had hardly grasped the statement of the hon. Gentleman. There was an explanation on page 77 of the Vote as to various local stations grouped together. They were grouped under rifle ranges for an amount of money stated as an amount to be spent on rifle ranges. Then on another page he found various other items; why were they not all grouped together so that they might be clearly understood, without all this confusion?
MR. J. WARDsaid that on page 77 there was a sum of £ 10,500 for the upkeep of rifle ranges, and he would like to ask a question about it. They had some time ago a discussion with regard to the establishment of rifle ranges on the tops of buildings and sundry other places. He was anxious to know whether the War Office had made themselves
1326
responsible for any of the expenditure to keep up those rifle ranges, or whether any sum for their establishment was included in this Vote.
MR. BUCHANAN: No; none of those are included.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid there were several items in the Vote to which he desired to call attention. The first was a sum of £ 32,000 for the preparation of practice ground for camps. He complained that there had been an increase in the Estimate of about 40 per cent. He thought that was a kind of work as to the cost of which something like an accurate Estimate could be made At Trawsfynydd there was a sum of £ 22,270 put down on account of drainage and other works. In that case the amount had increased from £ 16,000 to £ 22,000, and he would like to know why that increase had occurred. Then there was an item for adapting the defences of various home stations to modern requirements. With regard to that a footnote stated that the statement was under consideration, but a sum of £ 50,000 was to be voted. There should be, he thought, some Estimate as to what that sum was to be applied to, and, unless he received a satisfactory reply, he should move a reduction of £ 100. There was another item of £ 10,500 for the central armourers' shops, and he would like to know why that Estimate had been reduced at a time when there were so many men out of work at Woolwich.
MR. HALDANEsaid, as to adapting defences to modern requirements, that the Owen Committee had completely revised the altered conditions of home defence. Certain places had been found to be more vulnerable than was imagined, and £ 50,000 was taken for the work that had to be done in the coming year in bringing certain places up to the required standard. The Department was also getting the central armourers' shops under better control, and there had consequently been a reduction of cost. The system now established was believed to be preferable.
MR. HUNTasked whether the item relating to the upkeep and improvement

1327
of rifle ranges included miniature rifle ranges.
MR. HALDANE: No.
MR. HUNT: Is the Government going to do nothing in the way of providing miniature rifle ranges?
MR. HALDANE: That question is dealt with under the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill.
SIR F. BANBURY,: not being satisfied with the reply given by the right hon. Gentleman, moved a reduction of the Vote by £ 100.
Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £ 2,435,900, be granted for the said Service."—(Sir Frederick Banbury.)
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 38; Noes, 187. (Division List No. 229.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex.F.

Craig,CaptainJames(Down,E.)

Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Dalrymple, Viscount

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Balcarres, Lord

Duncan,Robert(Lanark,Govan

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Faber, Capt.W.V. (Hants, W.)

Smith, AbelH. (Hortford,East)

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

Fell, Arthur

Smith,F.E.(Liverpool,Walton)

Beach.Hn.MichaelHughHicks

Forster, Henry William

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gibbs, G A. (Bristol, West)

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Gordon, J.

Valentia, Viscount

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edmd's

Younger, George

Cave, George

Hills, J. W.

Cavendish.Rt.Hon.Victor C.W.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Frederick Banbury and Mr. Hunt.

Corbett,A.Cameron(Glasgow)

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Moore, William

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Chance, Frederick William

Greenwood, C. (Peterborough)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Griffith, Ellis J.

Agnew, George William

Churchill, Rt, Hon. Winston S.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Cleland, J. W.

Harmsworth. Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Clough, William

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Armitage, R.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Harvey,W.E. (Derbyshire,N.E.

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Astbury, John Meir

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Cooper, G. J.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Corbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'd)

Hedges, A. Paget

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Helme, Norval Watson

Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Cox, Harold

Hemmerde, Edward George

Barker, John

Cremer, William Randal

Higham, John Sharp

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Crooks, William

Hobart, Sir Robert

Barnes, G. N.

Crosfield, A. H.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Barry,RedmondJ.(Tyrone,N.)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Beck, A. Cecil

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N

Bell, Richard

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Horniman, Emslie John

Bellairs, Carlyon

Dobson, Thomas W.

Hudson, Walter

Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Berridge, T. H. D.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Jackson,R. S.

Bertram, Julius

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Billson, Alfred

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Bowerman, C. W.

Evans, Samuel T.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Brace, William

Everett, R. Lacey

Kearley, Hudson E.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Fenwick, Charles

Kekewich, Sir George

Branch, James

Ferens, T. R.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Brigg, John

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Findlay, Alexander

Lambert, George

Brooke, Stopford

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lamont, Norman

Brunner,RtHnSirJ.T.(Cheshire

Fullerton, Hugh

Lehmann, R. C.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gill, A. H.

Lever,A.Levy (Essex,Harwich)

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Glover, Thomas

Levy, Maurice

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lewis, John Herbert

Lynch H. B.

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Thomasson, Franklin

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

Radford, G. H.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Macpherson, J. T.

Rendall, Athelstan

Verney, F. W.

M'Crae, George

Renton, Major Leslie

Vivian, Henry

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Richards,Thomas(W. Monm'th

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

M'Micking, Major G.

Richards.T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Maddison, Frederick

Richardson, A.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Mallet, Charles E.

Rickett, J. Compton

Wardle, George J.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Waring, Walter

Marnham, F. J.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Massie, J.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

Menzies, Walter

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Waterlow, D. S.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Robinson, S.

Watt, Henry A.

Mond, A.

Roe, Sir Thomas

White, George (Norfolk)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Rose, Charles Day

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Rowlands, J.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Morse, L. L.

Runciman, Walter

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Murray, James

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Wiles, Thomas

Myer, Horatio

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Nicholls, George

Seddon, J.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

Shackleton, David James

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Sherwell, Arthur James

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Nuttall, Harry

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

O'Grady, J.

Stanger, H. Y.

Wodehouse, Lord

Parker, James (Halifax)

Steadman, W. C.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—MR. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Pollard, Dr.

Thomas,DavidAlfred(Merthyr)

Original Question again proposed.
CAPTAIN CRAIGasked whether the item in the Vote they were now discussing for engine-drivers and stokers referred entirely to the hospital staff. It seemed to him that the sum put down required examination. As to the amount included in the Vote for hospital accommodation, was any of the money to be spent on the North of Ireland hospitals? He understood that the messing had been most uncomfortable, and had been conducted under the most disadvantageous circumstances. He asked whether the sum covered the provision of a permanent structure for cooking and baking. After spending large sums of money in acquiring barracks and camps, something really ought to be done to make the quarters of the Commisariat Department more comfortable. He asked whether there was not a differentiation of arrangements made between England and Ireland. He did not himself believe in what might be called barrack-room soldiers. The men ought to live as much as possible in time of training in
1330
this country under the conditions they would have to endure in time of war. but he thought arrangements might be made for the putting up of a wooden hut in camps where the men could cook their meals properly. He was sure that if that little assistance was given it would be appreciated by every man.
MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid that for many years he had taken a great interest in military prisons, for which a sum of only £ 1,000 appeared in the Estimates for the current year. It would be in the recollection of the Committee that a great scandal arose some time ago in regard to the insufficiency of the accommodation in military prisons. But the Secretary for War had not shown that the deficiency had been made good. Though there had been some improvement in the treatment of the prisoners, nevertheless great scandal remained. They knew that soldiers were sentenced to imprisonment for purely military offences which were not necessarily moral offences; and they were cast into ordinary prisons and branded

1331
as criminals for the rest of their lives. Anyone who had studied the question must have been deeply impressed with what could only be regarded as a serious scandal connected with military administration. He felt that the right hon. Gentleman was only trifling with the matter when he thought that the evil could be remedied by an additional £ 1,000 expenditure on military prisons. They were perfectly aware of what, from the sanitary point of view, was the minimum accommodation which civilised countries gave to a prisoner in a military prison. The accommodation in South Africa had very grave defects, and from the report of the chief inspector of local prisons there was nothing which showed that any adequate progress had been made in regard to the military prisons in that country. This was the first time he had spoken on military affairs in the House of Commons, but he thought that this matter demanded the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. He also wished to call attention to the sanitary condition of Perth Barracks. The right hon. Gentleman, who, like himself, had probably known these barracks since boyhood, must be strongly impressed with their inefficiency. They were not only out of date, but were in such a condition as to constitute a disgrace to the British Army. Those who had seen them, slept in them, and otherwise had to use them, knew that the barracks were unfit for the accommodation of His Majesty's forces. Had the right hon. Gentleman in his portfolio any proposal for bringing these barracks up to date from a sanitary point of view? He did not ask for that maximum of comfort which all Army reformers thought proper for barracks under the best conditions. He only asked that Perth Bar-
1332
racks should contain the minimum of usefulness from the military point of view for the soldiers who used them. As to the cavalry barracks at Windsor every student of Army matters knew that year after year considerable sums of money had been expended on making petty repairs of the buildings, which were totally unsuited to the work to which they were devoted. Officers holding responsible positions had reported time after time that they should be destroyed, and that public economy as well as the ordinary comfort and good health of the troops could only be secured by the erection of a modern building; but under these Estimates not a shilling was devoted to that purpose. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would give some assurance to the Committee that another month would not elapse before he decided to demolish these two barracks, and to provide cleanly and reasonable accommodation for military offenders, instead of confining them in the cells of ordinary prisons.
MR. HICKS BEACHwished to know why the sum set apart for the drainage of Kingston Barracks had been reduced by £ 1,000. So far as his information went none of the money at present voted had been spent, and the condition of the barracks was such that the men were compelled to undertake work of the most medial description such as would be performed by only the lowest class of the community. He urged the Secretary of State to give some reason for the reduction of the original Estimate.
MR. MOOREsaid he understood that the Ballyshannon rifle range had been abandoned. As there

1333
were very few rifle ranges in the district that step had caused great dissatisfaction. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give some explanation. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman was pledged to great economies in regard to expenditure, but the Estimates disclosed the fact that the War Office was an exceedingly bad sewage farmer. Expenditure on the sewage farms at Aldershot and Sandhurst amounted to £ 17,000 a year and the only revenue was £ 1,200, so that the loss amounted to something over £ 15,000 a year If that loss was incurred he would suggest that some other means should be taken of disposing of the sewage than that of sewage farms, which were open to suspicion because infection in the case of various forms of zymotic diseases had been traced to them. He took it that the land upon which these sewage farms wore situated were Crown lands, so that there was no rent, and there was plenty of fatigue duty by moans of which labour could be provided, so that that would not cost much. Under those circumstances he could not see why this loss should be incurred.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid that it would be recollected that a question had been raised as to the disposal of milk obtained from cows kept on sewage farms, and it had been pointed out that disease had resulted from the sale of such milk for the use of the troops. He should like to know what stops the right hon. Gentleman was taking in that matter.
MR. HALDANEsaid a very startling case had been made out with reference to the sewage farms at Aldershot and Sandhurst, but it could not be sustained, as there was a small revenue from them. The working expenses were very small indeed,
1334
and the £ 17,000 included many other items in regard to a number of other matters. As to the rifle range at Ballyshannon there was no reference to Ballyshannon in the Estimate, so he could not give information in regard to it. If, however, the hon. Member would put down a Question he would obtain information for him.
MR. MOOREsaid that if the Government had abandoned the rifle range there naturally would be no charge in the Estimate.
MR. HALDANEsaid it was dependent. upon the "if," and if the hon. Gentleman would put down a Question he would answer it. As to Kingston Barracks they had examined into the matter very closely.
MR. HICKS BEACH:inquired why they had reduced the amount.
MR. HALDANE:replied that they did so because the amount was found to be too large, and surely the hon. Gentleman did not want them to spend too much. As to the barracks at Windsor, he thought the hon. Member for Hoxton was not so well acquainted with them as he was. The hon. Member had spoken of the cavalry barracks as being in a bad condition, but there were two barracks at Windsor, a cavalry barracks and an infantry barracks. The infantry barracks had been for years in a very shocking condition and this year they were pulling them down, rebuilding them, and putting the men in possession of cubicles. Therefore in regard to that matter they could not be accused of doing too little. As to the cavalry barracks, he was in the habit of employing his Sunday afternoons by taking his walks abroad. A short

1335
while ago he walked through these cavalry barracks, and he said that although old-fashioned, they were not bad barracks and they were fit to do duty for some time to come. Therefore he did not think there was much in the case about Winsdor. The hon. Member for Hoxton had also spoken about the small sum they had spent upon the prisons, but on a former occasion he had pointed out that their prison expenditure was diminishing because there were fewer prisoners. Then last but not least he came to the somewhat precise speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Down, who addressed to him four questions. The answer to the first question was in the affirmative, the answer to the second was in the negative, that to the third was in the negative, and as to the fourth he was not sure.
MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid he was not referring to the infantry barracks at Windsor, but to the cavalry barracks, and therefore the right hon. Gentleman had not satisfactorily answered his question. Moreover, the right hon. Gentleman had not replied about Perth barracks. The Secretary of State for War's statement about the prisons did not dispose of the fact that there were grave defects in regard to the military prison system. It was nothing less than a scandal that the right hon. Gentleman should tolerate for one minute the state of things which existed. Military prisoners were condemned by their superior officers, and then for military offences sent to undergo imprisonment in civil prisons. During the South African War a great many hon. Members were very eloquent about the matter, and supported their views in the Division Lobby, but now, when their Party was in power,
1336
they came to shout down hon. Gentlemen who raised the question.
MR. CAVEasked whether the work at Kingston barracks would be done at once.
MR. HALDANEsaid the Government had taken money for the purpose, and he hoped it would be proceeded with.
MR. HUNT:inquired whether under this Vote he might discuss the prison accommodation on board ships.
*THE CHAIRMANsaid the question did not arise on the Vote.
MR. MOOREsaid that in reference to his statement about sewage farms the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that the item of £ 17,000 included the cost of the sewage farms at Aldershot and Sandhurst, while the revenue from them was appropriated in aid. He would like to know where the appropriations in aid could be found.
MR. HALDANEsaid the details of the £ 17,000 included a vast number of items besides those relating to Alder-shot and Sandhurst. The amounts received from the Army sewage farms would be found at page 81, and he thought there was an exact balance if there was not a small profit.
MR. MOOREsaid that was not the point he raised. There appeared to be a net working loss of £ 15,000, but the right hon. Gentleman said the revenue from them was appropriated in aid.
MR. HALDANEsaid his statement was that the £ 17,000 covered a vast

1337
number of items and that there was a substantial appropriation in aid from the profits of the sewage farms.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid that as the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the revenue from the sewage farms was small he had jumped to the conclusion that there were no cows kept and that no milk was produced or sold. Now the right hon. Gentleman implied that there wore receipts from these farms, and therefore he had not answered his question about the milk. He wanted to know who drank the milk from these sewage farms.
MR. HICKS BEACH:inquired as to an item as to barracks and wished to know whether the money was to be spent at Hong-Kong or Pekin.
MR. HALDANEsaid the sum was for the barracks at Pekin. They were for the 250 men of the legation guards and would be commenced as soon as possible.
*CAPTAIN FABERAnd-over)wished to know what was going to be done about stables for the Scots Greys.
MR. CLAUDE HAYmoved the reduction of the Vote by £ 500 because the right hon. Gentleman had not given satisfactory replies and had not answered the last Question.
Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum not exceeding £ 2,435,500 be granted for the said service."—(MR. Claude Hay.)
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 39; Noes, 169. (Division List No. 230.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood.Rt Hn. Sir AlexF.

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Balcarres, Lord

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Dalrymple, Viscount

Smith.Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Fell, Arthur

Smith,T.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Beach, Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

Forster, Henry William

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Valentia, Viscount

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gordon, J.

Wyndham, Rt Hon. George

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Younger, George

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hills, J. W.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Claude Hay and Captain Faber.

Cave, George

Hunt, Rowland

Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Moore, William

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Nield, Herbert

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Beck, A. Cecil

Chance, Frederick William

Acland, Francis Dyke

Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Agnew, George William

Berridge, T. H. D.

Cleland, J. W.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Bertram, Julius

Clough, William

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Billson, Alfred

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Armitage, R.

Bowerman, C. W.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Brace,William

Cooper, G. J.

Astbury, John Meir

Bramsdon, T. A.

Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E.Crinst'd

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Brigg, John

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Baker,Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Cox, Harold

Baring. Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Brodie, H. C.

Cremer, William Randal

Barker, John

Brooke, Stopford

Crooks, William

Harlow. Percy (Bedford)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Crosfield, A. H.

Barnes, G. N.

Burnycat, W. J. C.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifton)

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Lamont, Norman

Rowlands, J.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lehmann, R, C.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Lever, A.Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Levy, Maurice

Seaverns, J. H.

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lewis, John Herbert

Seddon, J.

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lough, Thomas

Seely, Major J. B.

Evans, Samuel T.

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

Shackleton, David James

Everett, R. Lacey

Macpherson, J. T.

Sherwell, Arthur James

Fenwick, Charles

M'Crae, George

Shipman. Dr. John G.

Ferens, T. R.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Fiennes, Hon Eustace

M'Micking, Major G.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Findlay, Alexander

Maddison, Frederick

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Mallet, Charles E.

Stanger, H. Y.

Fullerton, Hugh

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Steadman, W. C.

Gill, A H.

Marnham F. J.

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Massie, J.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Mond, A.

Thomasson. Franklin

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Honey, L. G. Chiozza

Verney, F. W,

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Vivian, Henry

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Morse, L. L.

Walters, John Tudor

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Nicholls, George

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Harvey, W.E.(Derbyshire,N.E.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Waring, Walter

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Nuttall, Harry

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

O'Grady, J.

Waterlow, D. S.

Hedges, A. Paget

Parker, James (Halifax)

Watt, Henry A.

Helme, Norval Watson

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

White, George (Norfolk)

Hemmerde, Edward George

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Higham, John Sharp

Pollard, Dr.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Wiles. Thomas

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Radford, G. H.

Williams. J. (Glamorgan)

Holland. Sir William Henry

Kendall, Athelstan

Wills, Arthur Walters

Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.

Renton, Major Leslie

Wilson,Hon.C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

Horniman, Emslie John

Richards,Thomas(W. Mon'mth

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Hudson, Walter

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Jackson,R. S.

Rickett, J. Compton

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Wodehouse, Lord

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Roberts, John H (Denbighs)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Robinson, S

Kekewich, Sir George

Roe, Sir Thomas

Lambert, George

Rose, Charles Day

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

AUSTRALIAN STATES CONSTITUTION BILL.
Order for the Second Reading read.
It being after Eleven o'clock, and objection being taken:—
The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.)appealed to hon. Members opposite to withdraw
1340
their objection and allow the Bill to pass. There was no objection to it; the measure had been agreed upon by all the Australian States, and there was nothing to discuss. He had every reason to believe that it was a non-controversial Bill. [The objection was persisted in.] He hoped the House would note the attitude of the Imperial Party.
And, it being after half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at twenty-three minutes before Twelve o'clock.

VISCOUNT MIDLETON.
Ordered, That the Report of the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom, made to the House of Lords on Monday last, that the right of the Viscount Midleton to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to his satisfaction, be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, together with a certificate stating that such report has been made, and that the House has ordered it to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.
THE LORD PENRHYN.
Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: Armagh Urban District Council.
Also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with: Great Central Railway.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Great Central Railway Bill—Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.
Merthyr Tydfil Stipendiary Justice Bill [H.L.]. —Reported, with amendments.
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 2) Bill [H.L.]; Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]; Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No 1) Bill [H.L.]. —Reported, with amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]: Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 4) Bill [H.L.]. —
Reported, without amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Junction Railway Bill; Port Talbot Railway and Docks Bill. —Reported, without Amendment.
Middlesbrough, Stockton-on-Tees, and Thornaby Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Taff Vale Railway Bill. —Reported, with Amendments.
Alton Military Hospital Bill [H.L]. —Read 2a.
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Bill. Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Boston Spa Gas Bill. —Read 3a, with the Amendments; and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Brockenhurst Gas Bill. —Read 3a, with the Amendment; and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No 5.) Bill. —Broughtfrom the Commons.
Tyne Improvement Bill [H.L.]. —Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Matrimonial Causes Acts Amendment Bill [H.L].—Reported from the Standing Committee with an Amendment: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 66)
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill—Read 1a, to be printed; and referred to the Examiners (No. 67.)
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. —To be read 2a To-morrow: (The Earl Carrington).
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill [H.L]. (No. 68). —A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Tralee, and Fenit, and Wick-low: And
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 4.) Bill [H.L]. (No. 69.) —A Bill to

1195
confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Southwold: —Were presented by the Earl Beauchamp (for the Lord Granard (E. Granard): Then it was moved, That the Order of the 20th day of March last "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill originating in this House shall be read a first time after Thursday, the 2nd day of May next," be dispensed with in respect of the said Bills; and that the Bills be now read 1a; agreed to: Bills read la accordingly; to be printed and referred to the Examiners.

COLONIES: ANNUAL.
No. 522. Falkland Islands. (Report for 1906.)

TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
No. 3816. Russia (Taganrog).
No. 3817. China (Chinkiang).
No. 3818. Greece (Thessaly).
No. 3819. Germany (Dantzig)
No. 3820. Netherlands (Java).

POST OFFICE (UNIVERSAL POSTAL UNION).
Convention of Rome. (26th May, 1906.)
Agreement for the exchange of insured letters and boxes. (26th May, 1906.)

IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
Return of advances made under the Irish Land Act, 1903, during the month of December, 1906.
Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

DOGS REGULATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1865.
Accounts of receipts and expenditure under the Act for year 1906.

FINES, ETC. (IRELAND).
Abstract of accounts of fines accounted for by the Registrar of Petty Sessions Clerks, for the year 1905.
aid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.