Sitting of 18 July 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock,
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in

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  the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 1) Bill [Lords],
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.
  Ashton-under-Lyne, Stalybridge, and Dukinfield (District) Waterworks Bill[Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  Great Yarmouth Waterworks and Lowestoft Water and Gas Bill [Lords] (King's Consent signified). Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  Sheffield Corporation Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; a Clause added; Bill to be read the third time.
  York (Micklegate Strays) Bill [Lords] (by Order). Road a second time, and committed.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
  Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 2) Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.
  Selsey Water Bill [Lords]; Manchester Corporation Tramways Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Middlesbrough, Stockton-on-Tees, and Thornaby Tramways Bill [Lords]. Re ported, with an Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Electric Supply Corporation Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Bill to be read the third time.
  Alton Military Hospital Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time.
  Pasley Children Legitimisation Bill [Lords], reported, with an Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to, Penrith Urban District Council Bill, with Amendments.
PETITIONS.
  CONGO FREE STATE.
  Petition from Manchester, for protection of the Native Races; to He upon the Table.
  LAND VALUES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Perth, against; to lie upon the Table.
  WEEKLY REST-DAY BILL.
  Petition from Kilburn and other places, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  JOINT STOCK COMPANIES.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th June; Mr. Lloyd-George]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 257.]
  COUNTY COURTS (PLAINTS AND SITTINGS.)
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 9th July; Mr. Herbert Samuel]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 238.]
  POST OFFICE (FOREIGN AND COLONIAL PARCEL POST).
  Copy presented, of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 8) Warrant, 1907, dated 29th June, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3860 and 3861 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Report on the State of Brunei for 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented, of Report, No. 528 (Bermuda, Annual Report for 1906) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  NAVAL PRIZE MONEY.
  Account presented, showing the Receipt and Expenditure of Naval Prize, Bounty, Salvage, and other Moneys between the 1st April, 1906, and 31st March, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 259.]
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Caledonian Canal, Copy of One hundred and second Report of the Commissioners [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 260.]
  HARBOUR, ETC., BILLS.
  Copy ordered, "of the Report of the Board of Trade on the Birkenhead Corporation Water Bill [Lords]."—(Mr. Lloyd-George).
  CIVIL SERVANTS (RETIREMENT AT THE AGE OF SIXTY-FIVE).
  Copy ordered, "of Treasury Minute, dated the 17th day of July, 1907, stating the circumstances under which certain Civil Servants have been retained in the Service after they have attained the age of sixty-five; and of the Return therein referred to."—(Mr. Runciman.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Kenmare Rural Postmen.
  MR. BOLAND (Kerry, S.): To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the case of Michael Shea, who has acted as rural postman between Kenmare and Bonane for twenty-four years and six months, and who has sent in his replies to questions submitted for superannuation purposes seven weeks ago but has not yet received any further notification; and whether the case will be dealt with immediately, as he has no other means of support since he was relieved of his duty through age and infirmity.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I am making inquiries in the matter. In the meantime I will see if any payment can be made to Shea pending a settlement of the question whether he is eligible for any award under the Superannuation Acts.

  Birmingham Telegraph Staff.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS (Wolver-hampton, W.): To ask the Postmaster-General whether, seeing that on 15th May, 1906, he stated that he was considering a scheme for the separation of the Birmingham telegraph staff from the postal staff, and in view of the inconveniences suffered by the junior members of the telegraph staff, he will state when the scheme promised fourteen months ago will be published and put into execution.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The staff of male sorting clerks and telegraphists at Birmingham has been definitely divided between the postal and telegraph sides of the office. Of course an officer attached to the telegraph side of the office is liable to be called upon to work on the postal side, or vice versa, if the exigencies of the service require it.

  Boy Clerks.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider the advisability, in view of the importance of the points raised in the memorial which has been before the Treasury since September last, by the boy clerks in His Majesty's Civil Service, as to whether a more efficient and economical system could be devised for recruiting the clerical ranks, of referring these questions to a committee of Members of this House.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I do not think the course suggested by the hon. Member necessary or desirable.

  Foreign Weights and Measures.
  MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W.R., Keighley): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will remind the Foreign consuls to give, in English equivalents, the statistics as to weights, measures, and coinage which are contained in their Reports.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) British consular officers abroad are already instructed in the sense of the hon. Member's Question, and in all cases where these instructions are neglected the attention of the consular officer is drawn to the matter.

  Crime in Ceylon.
  SIR H. COTTON (Nottingham, E.): To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has received representations from the Governor of Ceylon regarding the deportation of persons guilty of serious crime and of the increase in late years of the number of cases of murder and homicide; and whether he will lay upon the Table copies of correspondence on the subject.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) No representations on this subject have been received within the last two years. Correspondence which passed between the late Secretary of State and the Governor of Ceylon has recently been laid before the Legislative Council, and a copy will be placed in the Library of this House. It is not proposed to lay Papers upon the Table.

  St. Helena Prisoners.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that on arrival at St. Helena the Zulu prisoners wore in an emaciated condition and looked half-starved, and some of them were hardly able to walk; whether amongst these is the chief Tilonko, from whom a petition is lying upon the Table of this House setting forth that he was illegally condemned under an indemnity Act wider in scope than has ever been assented to by the Sovereign, and which is alleged to have been unjustly put into operation; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) It was necessary to deport these prisoners under the Colonial Prisoners Removal Act, and they therefore remain in the status of convicts; but it has always been the view of the Secretary of State that the fact of their deportation would justify their receiving while in St. Helena liberal treatment in regard to conditions of their
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  imprisonment, especially in the matter of dietary. He will at once call for a Report from the Governor of St. Helena on this subject, and will authorise him to make such modifications in the scale of dietary and general conditions as are possible consistently with the provisions of the law.

  Colonial Audits.
  MR. FIELD (Dublin, St. Patrick): To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what is the estimated cost of the projected visit of the Assistant Comptroller and Auditor to the Colonial audit stations of the Mediterranean and of the East and South Coast of Africa; whether, having regard to the fact that provision for such estimated expenditure has been made by the curtailment of various programmes of local audit in the United Kingdom, it is within the competence of the heads of the Exchequer and Audit Department thus to arrange a Colonial inspection by an official to the detriment of the Imperial duties of experienced officers; whether the proposed visit has been undertaken at the instance of the Colonial Office, and, if so, why it was not planned without prejudice to Imperial audits; and whether, in view of the circumstance that during a similar tour by a late Comptroller and Auditor-General it was found desirable to visit the Holy Land and other places of non-financial interest, he can state what control is exercised by the Lords of the Treasury over official journeys of heads of departments to ensure that these shall not be extemporised to furnish opportunities of foreign travel at the public expense.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.)The visit is undertaken in the public interest with the approval of the Treasury and the Colonial Office, and will not have the consequences suggested. I understand the facts as to a tour by a former Comptroller and Auditor-General are misrepresented in the Question.

  Government Pensioner.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (Wicklow, W.): To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether naval, military, or civil pensioners who have commuted their pensions can revert to the position of actual pensioners; and, if so, under what circumstances.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) No, Sir. When a pension has once been commuted it cannot, under any circumstances, be resumed.

  Infantile Mortality.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether infant mortality among the poorer classes usually rises greatly in the latter part of the summer and early autumn; whether the mortality would be reduced if parents who are unable to pay for a doctor for their children would apply for medical relief at an early stage of the children's illness; and whether he would advise the guardians to give all facilities to such parents to obtain medical relief for the children, and not to make it a debt or offer it on condition that the parent comes into the workhouse.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am aware that there is usually an increase in infant mortality in the latter part of the summer and early autumn, especially in hot seasons, and it may be accepted, I think, that competent medical advice and treatment at an early stage of the illness would tend to reduce the mortality. I have, however, no reason to suppose that guardians are unwilling to afford medical relief for children whose parents are unable to provide it, or that persons properly entitled to receive medical relief are deterred from applying for it by the considerations referred to in the last part of the Question. If my hon. friend is aware of any cases of failure to give relief to the infants of parents unable-to provide it, and will inform me of the particulars of such cases, I will consider them.

  Metropolitan Guardians' Account Audits.
  MR. STUART SAMUEL: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the practice of the Metropolitan District Auditor of Poor Law Accounts in issuing a restricted and inadequate notice of his audit of guardians' accounts; and whether he will consider the desirability of issuing instructions for ample and convenient notice of such audit being given locally, as is the case with the audit of the accounts of metropolitan borough councils.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I do not find that I have received any complaints as to the practice of the auditor in this matter. The statutes and orders relating to this subject require that the auditor shall give notice by advertisement, in some newspaper circulating in the county, a reasonable time prior to the audit, and further that he shall give to the clerk to the guardians fourteen days' notice in writing of the time and place at which he intends to commence the audit. The auditor states chat the notice given by him has in all cases been such as is required by statute, and that special care has been exercised in seeing that adequate notice has been given. I may add that the clerk to the guardians is required, on hearing from the auditor, to cause a notice in a pre scribed form to be affixed to the gate of the workhouse and other places where union notices are usually affixed. The notice refers to the deposit of certain books of accounts for inspection by the owners and ratepayers, the holding of the audit, and the power of any owner or ratepayer who may have any objection to the accounts to attend and be heard by the auditor.

  Belfast Telegraph Clerks.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, in September. 1906, a memorial was submitted to the telegraph superintendent at Belfast by the local secretary of the Postal Telegraph Clerks Association, asking that a staff of male clerks might be sent to the telegraph counter at the head office; and, seeing that in March the men were informed that the change would be made as soon as the duties could be arranged, whether he can state the reason for the absence of effort to carry the promise into effect.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Burton) I will have inquiry made and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

  Boy Telegraph Messengers.
  MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the boy telegraph messengers employed at the larger offices complain of their excessive hours of duty on Sunday, for which they practically receive no remuneration; and,

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  if so, will he cause an intimation to be published in the Post Office Official Circular instructing postmasters that the boy messengers arc only to be employed on Sunday from 8 a.m. until 8 p.m., all Sunday duty previous to 8 a.m. and after 8 p.m. to be performed by adult night messengers.
  MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that there is a hardship at present imposed upon the adult night messengers of making a special day attendance to receive their weekly wages; and, if so, will he insert instructions in the Post Office Official Circular to the effect that at all offices where adult night messengers are employed they be either paid their wages when leaving off duty on Saturday morning, or be allowed the usual rate of overtime if compelled to put in a special day attendance for the specific purpose of receiving their weekly wages
  (Answered, by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I will have inquiry made on the subject of the hon. Member's Questions, and will inform him of the result.

  Sub-postmaster's Letter Boxes.
  MR. W. T. WILSON (Lancashire, Westhoughton): To ask the Postmaster-General whether sub-postmasters now have letter boxes supplied and fixed free of cost; and, if so, at what date did this departmental concession come into operation.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) It is still the duty of sub-postmasters to provide arid fix their own letter boxes. The question of altering the rule has been under consideration, but as the matter was brought before the Select Committee on Post Office Servants my decision has been deferred until the Committee has reported.

  Telegraph Vacancies at Derby.
  MR. BELL: To ask the Postmaster-General whether in view of the fact that two vacancies now exist in the telegraph department at Derby, he will direct that two of the telegraphists now performing sorting duties may be reinstated.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I will make inquiry in the matter, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

  American Gooseberry Mildew.
  MR. BECK (Cambridgeshire. Wis-bech): To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, in view of the fact that out breaks of the American gooseberry-mildew in its highly infectious summer stage have occurred within the last few days in Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, and Norfolk, and that this disease, which has rendered the culture of gooseberries unprofitable and practically impossible wherever it Las appeared, spreads with great rapidity by the spores produced in this stage, the Board will place the outbreaks under the charge of one or more properly qualified mycologists to supervise the carrying out of those measures necessary to secure the eradication of the disease.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Destructive Insects and Pests Act imposes on the local authorities the duty of taking the necessary measures for preventing the spread of the disease; but the Board have been authorised to appoint two inspectors, who will supervise the administration of the Act and give any assistance in their power to the local authorities in the discharge of their duties.

  Royal Courts of Justice.
  MR. HERBERT (Buckinghamshire, Wycombe): To ask the First Commissioner of Works whether, having regard to the fact that at present there is at the Royal Courts of Justice one Court too few for the existing number of Judges, and that it is proposed to appoint an additional Judge, he intends to provide Courts and rooms for two Judges; and whether, at any rate, he will, during the coming Long Vacation, proceed with the construction of the Court between Chancery Court 2 and the Lord Chancellor's Court, for which plans have long been in existence.
  (Answered by Mr. Harcourt.) No provision has been made in the Estimates for the current year, and it will not, therefore, be possible to make new Courts or rooms until 1108–9, or to undertake any building such as is mentioned in the last paragraph of the Question.

  Bombay-Sind Railway.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India

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  whether he has yet received from the Government of India the memorial of the Cutchi inhabitants of Bombay relative to the proposed Bombay-Sind connection railway.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) have requested the Government of India to forward the memorial, but I have not yet received it.

  India Public Works Department.
  SIR SEYMOUR KING: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether any information exists at the India Office with reference to a scheme of reorganisation for the Public Works Department in India, which was reported to be under consideration by the Government of India two or three years ago; and whether any scheme for improving the pay and prospects of the Department has as yet been before the Secretary of State.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) An increase of pay in the administrative grades of the engineering branch of the Public Works Department was sanctioned by my predecessor in August, 1905. I am not aware of any other scheme under consideration for improving the pay and prospects of the Department.

  Royal Irish Constabulary at Newry.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that only one sergeant out of thirty-two

  Year.

  (1.) Number of tenants converted into caretakers by service of ejectment notice under Section 7 of the Land Law (Ire land) Act, 1887, in Ireland.

  (2.)Number of actual evictions of tenants from agricultural holdings at the suit of landlords.

  1901

  2,482

  226

  1902

  2,694

  193

  1903

  2,257

  231

  1904

  2,414

  169

  1905

  2,221

  134

  1906

  2,191

  164

  sergeants and men of the Royal Irish Constabulary stationed at Newry is a Protestant; whether such arrangement is by design or accident; and if he proposes to make any change.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Inspector-General informs me that the force stationed at Newry consists of thirty-two sergeants and constables. Of this number one sergeant and eight constables are Protestants, and an existing vacancy is to be filled by the allocation of a second Protestant sergeant. The assignment of policemen to stations is a matter for the Inspector-General, and I do not propose to interfere with his discretion.

  Irish Tenants as Caretakers.
  MR. WALTER LONG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what was the number of tenants converted into care takers by service of ejectment notices under Section 7 of the Land Law Act of 1887 in each of the years 1901 to 1906, inclusive; what was the number of actual evictions for non-payment of rent throughout Ireland in each such year, and the number of farms retaken by former tenants and the number of farms retaken by new tenants in each such year, distinguishing in the case of the latter the number who came to an arrangement with the evicted tenants before they entered in possession.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.)

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  This information has been extracted from Returns presented to Parliament. As regards (2) it is not possible to distinguish cases in which evictions were for non-payment of rent, but it may be assumed that the great majority were of that nature. Returns have been given from time to time containing the information asked for in the remainder of the Question, so far as regards evicted farms on the estates commonly known as Plan of Campaign estates, and I informed the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh on the 16th instant that I would offer no objection to the granting of a Return in continuation of the last such Return (Parliamentary Paper No. 173, of Session 1903). I find that similar Returns as regards evicted farms generally have not heretofore been presented to Parliament, and I do not propose to make any new departure in this respect.

  Sir Robert Hudson's Cavan Tenantry.
  MR. SAMUEL YOUNG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lientenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on Sir Robert Hudson's estate, county Cavan, have signed agreements for the purchase of their holdings, and that a number of tenants who bad turbary rights also signed agreements surrendering these rights in consideration of receiving a further reduction in their instalments; whether he is aware that the landlord now proposes to give all the good turbary to those tenants who have surrendered their rights and nothing but after-bog to the others, who are unwilling under the conditions to purchase; and whether, in view of these facts, the Estates Commissioners are prepared to advance money for the purchase of the estate.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that since notice of this Question was given they have learnt that a satisfactory agreement as regards turbary has been arrived at between the vendor and the purchasing tenants.

  Holyrood Urban District Council
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the urban district council of Holywood has discovered that its late clerk, James H. Barrett, received, between the 6th December, 1900, and the 29th January, 1905,
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  various fees in respect of transfers of grave lots; that the said James Hunter Barrett failed to account for said sums; whether he will state the circumstances under which the discovery was made, and the nature of the entries made by James Hunter Barrett in respect of the said stuns respectively; whether the council have taken any, and if so, what steps in regard to said embezzlements; does the council intend to prosecute in respect of these and other serious embezzlements by James H. Barrett; and if not, will the Government institute an independent inquiry.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Local Government Board have ascertained that the urban district council are at present considering what steps should be taken in regard to the circumstances alleged in the Question. Having regard to the possible outcome of the case, it is not at present desirable to make any statement as to the facts or to consider the question of an inquiry.

  Army Meat Tenders.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the War Office, when recently calling for tenders for preserved beef, selected a time for the delivery of tenders which rendered it impossible for Australian firms to compete; has the War Office, in reply to representations made on behalf of the Australian canners, declined to alter the date fixed; whether Australian preserved meats have ever been viewed with suspicion; whether the method of inspection of Australian preserved meat has been favourably reported on by the officer sent out by the War Office to visit the canning works; and will he direct that in future the time selected for tenders shall not be such as must necessarily give the contracts to American firms and preclude Australia from competing.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The War Office have to issue tenders for preserved meat according to their requirements at the time. In the ease under comment the date for delivery of the tenders could not have been altered without seriously interfering with the turnover of the stocks held as reserves. Australian preserved meat is not viewed with suspicion. The officer sent to visit the

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  Australian canning works has not returned to this country, and no Report has been received from him. The time selected for issue of tenders must be governed by War Department requirements, but every endeavour will be made to meet the convenience of the "Australian market as far as it is possible to do so.

  Afforestry in the Forest of Dean.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSON: To ask the Prime Minister whether an expert forest officer will be appointed to fill the vacancy at the Forest of Dean; and whether any progress has been made with respect to the purchase by the Woods and Forests Commissioners of land in Argyll for afforestation purposes.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Banner-man.) The interests of forestry will not be lost sight of in the re-arrangements which are under consideration. The purchase referred to in the latter part of the Question is still under consideration.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Portsmouth Dockyard Discharges.
    MR. STAVELEY-HILL (Staffordshire, Kingswinford): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many men have been discharged from the dockyard at Portsmouth since January, 1906, who have had more than twenty years service.
    THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. LAMBERT, Devonshire, South Molton): 188 men with more than twenty years' service have left Portsmouth Dockyard since January, 1906, but none of these were discharged on reduction.

    Dockyard Discharges.
    MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many men have been discharged from the dockyards at Pembroke, Devonport, Portsmouth, and Chatham since January, 1906; and in how many eases were men discharged with more than ten years' service.
    MR. LAMBERT: The number of men who have been discharged from the
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    dockyards named between 1st January, 1906 and the 6th July, 1907, is as follows:—On reduction, 439; other causes, 2,798. During the same period 3,538 men have been entered. Of the 439 men discharged on reduction, 434 were discharged prior to the 30th June, 1906, and only five subsequently. 308 of the men who were discharged on reduction, and 484 of those who left from other causes, had over ten years' service.

    Naval and Marine Pensions.
    *MR. KELLEY.I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that, by printed regulations issued prior to 1878, all men joining the Navy and Marines were promised that, subject to good character, the ordinary pensions of their rating which they might earn would receive an augmentation of 5d. per day at the age of 55, and a further augmentation subsequently; that men, having reached the age of 55, have had their applications for fulfilment of this undertaking refused on the grounds that the Admiralty have no funds at their disposal for this purpose; and what steps the Admiralty propose to take to remedy the alleged grievance.
    MR. LAMBERT: The whole of the funds annually available for the pensions referred to in the Question is expended upon them. If my hon. friend requires further information as to these pensions, may I refer him to Command Paper 138 of Session 1892?

    Submarines.
    MR. GEORGE FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty why seven submarines have been ordered from Messrs. Vickers since the present Government came into office, and none of any other firm; and whether any firm, excepting that of Messrs. Vickers, has been invited to tender for sub marines; and, if not, why not.
    MR. LAMBERT: Messrs. Vickers were the firm who first took up submarine boat construction in this country, and they have gained much experience with these vessels. It is not known that any submarine boat suitable for His Majesty's service has been constructed in the country by any other firm; but if any

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    shipbuilding firm should submit a design of a submarine vessel, such design would receive the full consideration of the Admiralty.
    MR. GEORGE FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty why the sanction of the Treasury was not first received before submarines were ordered from Messrs. Vickers without competitive tenders having been obtained or other firms invited to compete.
    MR. LAMBERT: The hon. Member has already been informed by my right hon. friend the Secretary to the Admiralty, in reply to a previous Question on Monday last, that Treasury sanction was not required.
    MR. GEORGE FABER: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the finding of the Public Accounts Committee was to a contrary effect'
    MR. LAMBERT: Not on this subject.
    MR. GEORGE FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what the approximate difference in cost is likely to be between the submarines commenced in the Government dockyards at Chatham and those ordered from Messrs. Vickers.
    MR. LAMBERT: The work on the boats building at Chatham is not sufficiently far advanced to enable a reliable estimate to be given.

    The Channel Fleet.
    MR. GEORGE FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what was the last date when the Channel Fleet had its full complement of fourteen battleships assembled; and how many of the fourteen battleships are absent now.
    MR. LAMBERT: The fourteen battle- ships of the Channel Fleet have not been assembled since the battle squadron was reconstituted in March last. Two battle-ships are now absent, viz., the "Triumph," which, is in dockyard hands at Chatham, and the "New Zealand," which is preparing to proceed from Devonport to Bantry for gun trials.
    MR. GEORGE FABER: May I ask why the hon. Gentleman informed me
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    in this House on 24th June that all the battleships were assembled?
    MR. LAMBERT: I did not intend to convey that.

    Smokeless Blank Cartridge.
    MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if the military authorities at Aldershot desire smokeless blank cartridge for Artillery for use in training officers and men; and, if so, if he will supply this want.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington): The desirability of a smokeless blank ammunition for Artillery is admitted; but although several designs have been tried, no satisfactory explosive at a reasonable cost has been found. Experiments are, however, being continued.

    Military Officers in the House of Commons.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether officers in the Army on the active list are not allowed to be candidates, while occupying this position, for Parliamentary constituencies, and are compelled by a War Office regulation, or the practice of the War Office, to retire from the House of Commons on appointment to military commands: whether Peers of the Realm on the active list, and as such executive servants of the public, are entitled by the practice of the War Office to combine military and Parliamentary duties, while Members of this House are disqualified, by the practice of the War Office, from retaining their seats when placed on the active list; whether he will explain the reason of the difference made in favour of Army officers who are Members of the House of Lords to the disadvantage of Army officers who are Members of the House of Commons; and whether he intends is take any, and, if so, what steps to rectify this class distinction.
    MR. HALDANE: There is no regulation against an officer becoming a candidate for a seat in the House of Commons, nor is it the practice of the War Office to intervene in this matter. If, however, he is elected, ho remains on the active list but is placed upon half-pay.

    911
    An officer is required to vacate his seat on being appointed to a command, because it is considered that the work of a Member of this House would engross too much of an officer's time, and that consequently the interests, comforts and efficiency of the troops placed under his command would thereby suffer. These rules are not applicable to Members of the House of Lords, as they cannot divest themselves of their duties as such. Hence an officer who is a Member of the House of Commons occupies a somewhat more favourable position under these rules than one who is a Member of the House of Lords, in that while being retained on the active list he is relieved from the performance of all military duty and is thus enabled to devote his whole time and energy to his legislative duties.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid that that was very delightful for military men. He asked whether the Government were seriously considering the rectification of such a state of things, whereby a military man in command was excluded from the House, while a military man who was a Member of the other House had full right of discussion there, and possibly could move a vote of censure on the Ministry and then proceed to take his pay from the War Office.
    MR. HALDANE: We have not been troubled with the evil my hon. friend refers to.

    Treatment at Zulu Prisoners at St Helena.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I bog to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Minute of the acting Prime Minister of Natal, sent to the Governor, and printed on page 13 of Cd. 3563, in which it is inferred or stated specifically that the Zulu prisoners in St. Helena will be under the supervision of a staff of warders armed with rifles, that they will be confined in rooms with iron bars fixed on the windows, three or four men being in one room, and that they are to receive no groceries except salt, is accepted by His Majesty's Government as being equal to the standard which they had in mind when they consented to the removal of these men from Natal; whether in. view of the different conditions of life, climatic and otherwise,
    912
    between St. Helena and Natal, His Majesty's Government consider that the dietary scale set out on page 11 of this paper, showing that the food is to consist almost exclusively of mealie meal, is satisfactory; and whether His Majesty's Government propose to make any representations to the Natal authorities for a revision of the scale and for the addition of groceries other than salt.
    MR. BYLES: I beg also to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Colonies whether the twenty-five Zulu prisoners recently deported from Natal to St. Helena are regarded as political prisoners; what are the conditions of their captivity; what are their rations; to what privations, other than the loss of freedom, are they subjected; are those who are chiefs accorded treatment commensurate with their superior rank of life; and how far does the Home Government regard itself responsible that they shall be treated in accordance with the traditions that prevail in this country.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg further to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that on arrival at St. Helena the Zulu prisoners were in an emaciated condition and looked half-starved, and some of them were hardly able to walk; whether amongst these is the chief Tilonko, from whom a petition is lying upon the Table of this House setting forth that he was illegally condemned under an indemnity Act wider in scope than has ever been assented to by the Sovereign, and which is alleged to have been unjustly put into operation; and whether he proposes to take any action on the matter.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): It was necessary to deport these prisoners under the Colonial Prisoners Removal Act, and they therefore remain in the status of convicts, but it has always been the view of the Secretary of State that the fact of their deportation would justify their receiving, while in St. Helena, liberal treatment in regard to conditions of their imprisonment, especially in the matter of

    913
    dietary. He will at once call for a Report from the Governor of St. Helena on this subject, and will authorise him to make such modifications in the scale of dietary and general conditions as are possible consistently with this provisions of the law.

    Fighting in the New Hebrides.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official news of the fighting in the New Hebrides; and whether he will furnish any details.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I have to refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Answer which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for the North-Western Division of Lancashire.

    Imports of Arms and Spirits into the New Hebrides.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official information showing that vessels chartered under the French flag have recently left Sydney carrying arms, ammunition, and spirits for importation into the New Hebrides.
    MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir; but I will inquire.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the result of the inquiries he promised to make two months ago?
    MR. CHURCHILLwas understood to say he had not yet received the reply.
    SIR GILBERT PARKERasked if British subjects were not placed at a great disadvantage by the delay in the issue of the Proclamation, as they were prohibited carrying arms, ammunition, and spirits.
    MR. CHURCHILLasked for notice.

    Concessions in China.
    MR. C. E. PRICE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has discussed with Sir Ernest Satow the question of concessions in China; whether any settlement has been arrived at with the
    914
    Chinese Government; and, if so, can he state the nature of it to the House.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick): The Answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative, but we have so far arrived at no general settlement with the Chinese Government regarding concessions in China. Negotiations are proceeding separately with a view to the settlement of each out standing case.

    Egyptian Postage.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON (Northumberland, Tyneside): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that the total correspondence passing through the Egyptian Post Office in 1906 increased to 58,000,000 as against 50,770,000 in 1905, and that since the introduction of the penny postage the correspondence exchanged between Egypt and the United Kingdom and British Colonies has increased by 60 per cent., he will now endeavour to induce the Egyptian Government to place Egypt on an equal footing as to postal rates with the United Kingdom and the Colonies.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: As the penny postage already exists I do not under stand to what difference the hon. Member's Question refers.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: Is it not the case that the postage is about l¼d.?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: Yes, it is the case there is a slight difference due to the rate of the exchange.

    Galapagos Islands.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can make any statement with regard to the British subjects kept in a state of servitude in the Galapagos Islands.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: It has been found impracticable for His Majesty's Consul at Guayaquil to go in person to the Galapagos Islands, owing to the considerable time necessary for the journey He has been instructed, therefore, to send a trustworthy agent to the islands,

    915
    with power to bring away all those who wish to leave. Some time must elapse, however, before the result of his mission is known, as no ship leaves for the islands till the beginning of August and the journey there and back takes about five weeks.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Have the instructions been sent by cable?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: Yes, Sir.

    Egyptian Educational Service.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the increase recorded by Lord Cromer of over 100 per cent. in the European personnel in the Egyptian secondary schools and higher colleges in the years 1896–1906, and the decrease of 25 per cent. in the Egyptian personnel in the same department in the same period, are due to a falling-off in the number of Egyptians educated for such posts; and, if so, whether he can explain how such a falling-off in the educational provision made under the supervision of the Minister of Education by the British Adviser has taken place.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: The demand for secondary and higher education, and the development of it, has been increasing more rapidly than the supply of Egyptian teachers; measures are in hand to remedy the deficiency as far as it is possible.

    Newfoundland Fisheries.
    MR. LONSDALE (Armagh, Mid): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is intended to submit the questions in dispute in reference to the Newfoundland fisheries to arbitration; and what arrangements are to be made to cover the forthcoming fishing season.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: I am unable to give any information at the present stage of the negotiations, but I hope to be able to make a general statement on the subject before the end of the session. It is now under discussion between the Governments concerned.
    SIR GILBERT PARKERasked as to the bearing of the Clayton-Bulwer treaty on these negotiations.
    SIR EDWARD GREYsaid it was difficult to establish any analogy between the two cases.

    Assault on a British Telegraphist at Odessa.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any in formation with regard to the assault on Mr. T. Hutchinson, a member of the staff of the Indo-European Telegraphs, who was beaten on the head in the Deribasovskaya, one of the busiest thoroughfares in Odessa; and, seeing that Mr. Hutchinson obtained no satisfaction from the local police, what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: I have not yet received any report respecting this incident from His Majesty's Consul General at Odessa, and am therefore at present unable to reply to the second part of the hon. Member's Question, but I will make inquiries.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Will they be made by cable?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: No; by despatch.

    San Thomé and Principé.
    MR. ARKWRIGHT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet in a position to lay Papers before the House with regard to the conditions of labour in the islands of San Thomé and Principé.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: There are no Papers on the subject referred to by the hon. Member for Hereford which could be usefully laid before the House. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland and circulated with the Votes on Friday last.ߤ

    Income-Tax.
    MR. EVELYN CECIL: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in the ease of persons now entitled to a remission of income-tax on earned incomes, but who have already filled up for this year a return to the Income-Tax Commissioners, a supplemental application form for the lower rate
    ߤ See(4) Debates, clxxviii, 1906

    917
    will be supplied, or, if not, whether collectors of income-tax will be instructed to give any and what facilities to such taxpayers to make a demand for the lower rate.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fife, E.): It is proposed to supply supplemental forms to persons who have already made returns for the current year, and who may appear to be entitled to relief in respect of earned income. If anyone so entitled should not receive such supplemental form within the next month, he should apply to the surveyor of his district, who will see that the omission is repaired.

    Savings Banks Balance Sheets.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state why, as the Savings Banks Act of 1901 gave effect to the recommendation of the Select Committee of 1902 that publication of the balance sheets of the savings banks should be discontinued, effect has not been given to the recommendation of the same Committee that the rate of interest to depositors should be reduced, with the object of relieving the general taxpayer from the burden of making good the annual loss in the income accounts of the savings banks.
    MR. ASQUITH: Before the late Chancellor of the Exchequer brought in his Bill for giving effect to the recommendations of the Select Committee, the question of reducing the rates of interest was discussed in Committee of Supply, on the l5th March, 1904.… The right hon. Gentleman then expressed his concurrence in the Committee's view that Parliament should not be called upon permanently to vote money for the purpose of paying to savings bank depositor's a higher rate of interest than could be earned on the investments. But he pointed out that financial conditions had changed since the date of the Committee's inquiry so as to justify the hope that, without any reduction of the rate of interest payable, the annual deficiency might be reduced and possibly be extinguished. I understand that his decision not to alter the rate of interest was generally approved. Owing partly
    †See(4) Debates, cxxxi, 1153 ct seg.
    918
    to the increased earning power on new investments and partly to certain changes effected by the Act of 1904, the total deficiency on the income of the two savings banks funds, which in 1903 was £183,690, had been reduced in 1900 to £129,361. And the reduction would have been greater, but for the inclusion last year of a special non-recurrent charge of about,£21,000. I see no reason at present for departing from the policy of the last Government.

    Trustee Savings Banks.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, in the year 1880, there was a deficiency estimated by Mr. Gladstone at £3,565,000 in the Trustee Savings Banks, the amount being arrived at by valuation of the securities held; that the deficiency was provided for by the creation of a terminable annuity to run for twenty-eight years, the term being afterwards extended to 1917; that the cost of making good this deficiency has been borne, and is now being borne by the taxpayers in general; and that the same method of valuation would reveal a new deficiency, quite apart from the old, in the Trustee Savings Banks, and a deficiency of over £10,000,000 in the Post Office Savings Bank; and whether, regard being had to the circumstances, he will consider the expediency of making provision for reducing and finally extinguishing these deficiencies (if they exist) by setting up terminable annuities, as was done in 1880 in the case of the Trustee Savings Banks.
    MR. ASQUITH: I am aware that the Trustee Savings Banks deficiency annuity was created in 1881 to make good an estimated depletion of the assets of the Trustee Savings Banks Fund, which had been caused primarily by the practice, pursued in earlier years, of paying interest out of capital. The fund has not been allowed to incur any further deficiency from that cause, as since 1876 every deficit on the annual income account has been made good by the Votes of Parliament; nor has a similar deficiency ever been incurred by the Post Office Savings Banks Fund. I am not prepared to ask Parliament to take the same steps for making good any deficiency which might appear upon an arbitrary valuation of the

    919
    securities as were considered necessary when there had been a real inroad upon the assets of the fund.

    Police Persecution of Ex-Convicts.
    MR. THORNE (: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a statement made by William Page to the stipendiary at the West Ham Police Court, on Tuesday, 25th June, when he was sentenced to three months for stealing a roll of oilcloth, that he had been going straight until a constable informed his employer that he was an ex-convict, the result being that he was dismissed from his work, which caused him to steal the oilcloth; and whether it is the duty of police constables to inform employers as to whether any of their employees have been sent to prison.
    THE SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLAD STONE, Leeds, W.): I am making inquiries into this case. I shall be glad if the hon. Member can furnish me with the name or number of the officer concerned, or the name of the employer, and then perhaps he will put down a further Question.

    Factory Inspection
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to Table 8 in the Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories for 1906, wherein it is shown that the number of names of outworkers received are greatly in excess of the number of visits made by the medical officers of health in Sheffield, Belfast, Worcester, Ipswich, Gloucester shire, West Ham, Westminster and other j areas; and what steps he proposes to take to make this inspection efficient.
    MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir. This table was included in the Chief Inspector's Report by my directions, with a view to the improvement of the present conditions. The steps that have been taken by me to improve the administration of the Home Work provisions of the Factory Act by the local authorities have been to issue a circular on the subject to the authorities and the medical officers calling their attention to the importance of a thorough administration of the Act, and
    920
    secondly to propose that the matter shall be discussed at a conference with medical officers of health which it is intended to hold at the Home Office in the autumn.

    Medical Officers of Health and Factory Inspection.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to the fact, as shown in the Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories for 1906, that 634 medical officers of health still neglect to perform the statutory duties imposed on them by the Factory and Workshop Act to report to the Home Office regarding their ad ministration of that Act; and how long the Home Office proposes to allow this neglect to continue.
    MR. GLADSTONE: The great majority of the medical officers who have failed to send in reports, viz.: 477 out of 634, are in Ireland. Under the Irish Public Health Law, medical officers, other than the few superintending medical officers, are not required to make any report to the local authority, and I am advised that it is doubtful how far in consequence any obligation is placed upon them by Section 132 of the Factory Act. As I have already stated, a special circular was sent out last year by the Home Office calling the attention of local authorities and medical officers to their duties in regard to home work—and I propose to communicate specially this autumn with those local authorities from whom no reports are received for 1906. I may add that in many districts from which no report is sent, the Factory Act has little or no application and the omission is comparatively unimportant.

    Inspections of Outworkers.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to the figures in the Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories, showing that in 1905, in the borough of Stepney, the medical officer reports only thirty-two inspections of outworkers out of 8,998 persons notified to be such in the two half-yearly Returns, and that the same medical officer reported no inspection in 1904; and why, in view of these facts, he has not authorised an independent inspection at the expense of

    921
    this borough under Section 4 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am aware of the figures referred to and am communicating with the borough council on the subject. I am advised that it is doubtful whether the powers under Section 4 of the Factory Act cover a case such as this. But, in any event, for the Factory Department to assume in this and similar cases the duties in respect to home work which the Act imposes on local authorities would be to add greatly to the work of a Department already more than fully employed. The whole question of home work is now under the consideration of a Select Committee of this House, and pending their Report I cannot see my way to make the consider able change in the administration of these provisions which is suggested by the hon. Member.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: Was not Section 4 specially drafted to meet such cases?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I imagine that is so; but there are difficulties arising out of dual administration.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the fact, as shown in Table 8 of an Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories for 1906, that in 2,194 cases, on the showing of medical officers of health, employers were.discovered to have sent in to the district council no list of outworkers as provided by Section 107 of the Act, and that of these no fewer than 753 remained un-remedied, a substantial increase being thus shown in the neglect in this respect over last year; whether his attention has also teen drawn to the increased number of defects remaining unremedied as regards work being given out to be done in unwholesome premises, and allowing wearing apparel to be made in premises infected by scarlet fever or small-pox; and whether he can inform the House what steps the Home Office is taking to reduce the number of these cases of negligence on the part of so many medical officers of health.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am aware of the figures to which the hon. Member calls attention. Taking all the figures which relate to outworkers' lists together, the Returns for 1905 seem to me to point to an appreciable increase of activity on the part of the local authorities in regard to the collection of these lists. 2,500 more lists were received, and 18,000 more names of outworkers, and the fact that nearly 700 more failures were discovered than last year, shows, I think, that the officers of the local authority are following up these cases more care fully than before, and perhaps also compiling the Returns for the Homo Office more carefully. I may call the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that the number of prosecutions taken by local authorities for failure to send in the lists is more than double that of 1904. As regards action under Sections 108 to 110, I do not think any trustworthy inferences can be drawn from the figures referred to in the Question, for the reasons mentioned in the introduction to last year's Return. I have already stated, in Answer to a previous Question, the action taken by me with a view to improving the administration of the home work provisions of the Act by the local authorities.

    Sunderland Hair Dressers' Closing Order.
    MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to an application made to the Corporation of Sunderland by the local hairdressers' association for a closing order, under The Shop Hours Act, 1904, the petition for the same having been signed by 104 of those interested out of a possible 118, and the subsequent ballot vote revealing sixty-seven for and twenty-five against, but, by adding twenty-nine who had not voted, the corporation refused to put in force the Act, as the two-thirds required had not been obtained; and, if so, whether he can make any promise as to introducing legislation having for its object the remedying of the defect indicated, namely, the adding of all those who do not vote to the minority.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I know nothing of this case except what is contained in the newspaper extracts with which my

    923
    hon. friend has been good enough to supply me. I do not gather from them that the non-voters were added to the minority, nor is there any requirement in the law that they should be so added. What is required is that the town council should be satisfied that the occupiers of two- thirds of all the shops to be affected approve the order. This two-thirds majority is not shown prima facie as the result of the voting in the case in question. Whether the town council could take any further steps to satisfy themselves in the matter I am not in possession of sufficient information to judge.

    Aged Workmen and the Workmen's Compensation Act-
    MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he is aware that in Sunderland and district large numbers of old men are being paid off, due to the coming into operation of the Compensation Act; and, if so, can he state whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce any legislation having for its object the mitigation of the hardship and suffering likely to ensue on account of such dismissals.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. I have no information other than that furnished by the hon. Member as to what has taken place at Sunderland. But I may remind him that on Report stage of the Workmen's Compensation Bill, I proposed the insertion of a clause which would have gone far to safeguard old men against the risk of losing their employment, and I pressed for its adoption on the ground that the Depart mental Committee, whose views I shared, considered that without such a safeguard there was real danger of old and infirm workmen being prejudicially affected by the new act. That clause was left to the free decision of the House in pursuance of a promise given in Committee, and it was, unfortunately, in my opinion, rejected by 211 votes to 133. I think the hon. Member voted in the majority against it.

    Brighton Unemployed Funds.
    MR. THORNE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that some of the funds placed by him at the disposal of the Brighton Distress Com-
    924
    mittee are being used by them to provide cheap labour for a weaving firm in Haworth, Yorkshire; and whether he intends taking any action in the matter.
    THE PRESIDENT of the LOCAL (GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS, Battersea): I understand that the Distress Committee, in exercise of powers conferred upon them by the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905, have assisted the removal of two families to Haworth, for the purpose of enabling them to take advantage of an opportunity of obtaining permanent and remunerative employment in certain mills in that town. The whole of the cost of the removal has, however, been borne by the rate contribution account, and no part of it has been defrayed in the manner stated in the Question. The entire amount paid to the Committee out of the Parliamentary Grant has been expended in the provision of temporary work in Brighton.

    Remission of Surcharges.
    MR. E. GARDNER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Local Government Board are prepared either directly or indirectly through their powers of remission of surcharges, to sanction a local authority becoming its own insurer under The Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906. by such authority instituting a fund and paying into it each year a sum of money to be applied to the payment of claims under this Act, instead of such authority insuring with an insurance company.
    MR. JOHN BURNS: I am advised that under ordinary circumstances a local authority would not be empowered to form such a fund as that suggested. It would not be in accordance with the practice of the Local Government Board to sanction recurring illegal expenditure, either directly or by the remission of surcharges, nor do I think that they could properly do so.

    Croydon Vaccination Case.
    MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the case of a boy who died in Croydon on the 29th April last as the result of vaccination; if he is aware that the case was investigated by

    925
    Dr. Copeman, of the Local Government Board; that the child had sores on the head, face and arms, and lingered in agony for three months; will he say if he is still supplying public vaccinators with the same class of lymph; and if he will lay Dr. Copeman's Report upon the Table.
    MR. JOHN BURNS: I am aware of the case referred to, though J do not know that the child lingered in agony for three months, nor had I been informed of his death. The ease was investigated by Dr. Copeman and several medical men. Twenty other cases were vaccinated with the same lymph as this child, and, so far as was ascertained, the case in question was the only one in which the child subsequently had sores. These sores appear to have been, in fact, "bromide rash," and to have been due, not to vaccination, but to doses of bromide of potassium administered by the mother on account of the fits from which the child suffered. It is estimated that 178 grains of the drug were given to him. Dr. Copeman's Report is a confidential document, and I could not undertake to lay it on the Table.
    MR. LUPTON: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider a death rate of 5 per cent. in vaccination cases trifling.
    MR. JOHN BURNS: The percentage was not asked for. I must have notice.
    MR. LUPTON: The right hon. Gentle man has spoken of one in twenty as if it were a trifling matter.

    Secondary Education Code.
    MR. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if he can now state when the new Code and the new Regulations dealing with secondary schools will be circulated among Members.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH, Islington, W.): The Secondary School Regulations were circulated on the 2nd July and the Code on the 5th July.

    Clerks to Surveyors of Taxes.
    MR. POWER (Waterford, E.): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if a
    926
    Departmental Committee has been appointed to inquire into the alleged grievances of the clerks to surveyors of taxes; if not, whether it is intended to appoint such a Committee, or what steps it is proposed to take to investigate the case made by these clerks.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. RUNCIMAN,
    Dewsbury): No such Committee has been appointed, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer received a deputation from the officers referred to some time ago, and their representations are now under his consideration.

    Belfast Trade Dispute.
    MR. JOWETT: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the prosecutions arising from the trade dispute in Belfast, when local magistrates interested in the dispute have appeared upon the bench and given sentence; whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Edward O'Reilly, charged before a resident magistrate and a local justice with riotous behaviour and fined the maximum penalty of 40s., supplemented, however, by a proviso that he should give bail himself in £4 and find two sureties in £20 each to keep the peace, and in default of finding such bail that he should be imprisoned for three calendar months; whether it is customary that justices, in addition to imposing the maximum penalty provided by statute, should impose a further punishment by having recourse to their powers under their commission; and whether, in view of the whole circum stances of the case, he will take steps to secure a revision of the sentences passed by local justices in connection with cases that have arisen out of the Belfast dispute.
    MR. LONSDALE: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the Question, may I ask if he is aware that one of those sentenced connected with the strike has a record of eighty-three previous convictions, seventeen of which were assaults on the police, and that another had against him eighty-two convictions?
    *MR. SPEAKERI do not see how this arises out of the Question, which refers to one particular individual.
    MR. LONSDALE: The Question asks whether the sentences passed by local justices in connection with cases that have arisen out of the Belfast dispute may not be revised.
    THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND, (Mr. CHERRY, Liverpool, Ex change): According to the information I have received, the local magistrates in Belfast have taken very little part in cases connected with the labour dispute. The Belfast police courts are invariably presided over by a resident magistrate, and in no case have local magistrates sitting alone dealt with prosecutions arising out of the strike. I am informed that the facts connected with the case of Edward O'Reilly are as stated in the Question, and that neither of the magistrates who acted in that case has the slightest interest in the labour dispute. I have no power to secure a revision of sentences passed by magistrates, but the Lord-Lieutenant has power to mitigate punishment in such cases, and I have no doubt that any petition presented to His Excellency would receive full consideration. I understand, however, that an appeal has been lodged in the particular case in question, and the matter is there fore sub judice.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILLasked whether it was not a fact that magistrates who had interest either direct or indirect in the subject matter of the dispute were disqualified from sitting and adjudicating.
    *MR. SPEAKER: That point does not arise. The Attorney-General has said that the magistrates had no interest either direct or indirect in the dispute.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid that remark had escaped his notice.

    Nazareth Roman Catholic Industrial School, Belfast.
    CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has yet taken any steps towards releasing the two Protestant boys, William and Samuel Welsh, from the Nazareth Roman Catholic Industrial School, Belfast, who are detained there against the expressed wish of their father, who is willing and able to maintain them.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.): The children referred to were committed to the Nazareth Lodge Industrial School on 4th August, 1906. It was proved in evidence that the children's mother had died shortly before, and that the father had left the children with his own mother saying that she could do what she liked with them as he was going to work his passage to Canada. The grandmother was unable to support the children, and they had been subsisting on charity. Certificates of baptism of the children as Roman Catholics were produced and attached to the records of the Court, and it was stated that the father himself was of that religion. I have received from a solicitor an application for the release of the children, but up to the present no evidence has been adduced that the father is now a Protestant or that, in fact, he desires the release of the children. If such evidence should be forthcoming, I will give the case full consideration.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: Will the right hon. Gentleman further inquire into the facts?
    MR. BIRRELL: I have learned that the father wanders about without a shirt. From that I draw no inference.

    Irish Evicted Tenants.
    MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any communication has been sent to those evicted tenants whose applications for reinstatement have been refused by the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, what is the nature of the communication.
    MR. BIRRELL: It is the practice of the Estates Commissioners to inform an evicted tenant that his application has been rejected when such is the fact. The Commissioners do not use any set form of communication in these cases; the nature of the communication depends upon the circumstances of the case.

    Ruan Disturbances.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has any information respecting a conflict between the

    929
    Irish Constabulary and a party of moon lighters at Ruan, near Ennis, on Sunday night; whether any shots were exchanged; and whether any arrests were made.
    MR. BIRRELL: On Sunday afternoon last between five and six o'clock two policemen were escorting a man who is under police protection when several shots were fired from a wood through which the road passes. The police fired two shots in return, and at once entered the wood in the direction from which the shots appeared to come, but failed to discover the offenders. No one was injured.

    Navigation Works (Ireland) Bill.
    MR. BARRIE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when it is proposed to proceed with the Navigation Works (Ireland) Bill.
    MR. BIRRELL: This Bill will be proceeded with at the earliest opportunity, but I am not in a position to name a date.

    Creation of Peers.
    MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask the Prime Minister will His Majesty's Government agree to have printed and distributed the articles of impeachment on which this House impeached the Earl of Oxford in 1715 for recommending the creation of twelve Peers, and also the Reports. made from time to time to this House during his consequent two years imprisonment in the Tower.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs): This is an historical inquiry the facts of which can be discovered by any one who has the time to explore the records of the times in which impeachments and executions were freely resorted to. My hon. friend is not quite accurate in saying that the Earl of Oxford was impeached for recommending the creation of Peers. He was impeached on many other counts more serious than this. The creation of Peers was the sixteenth count in the indictment. I presume that my hon. friend does not desire to revive that method of controlling the Government of the country, and I think
    930
    we had better leave the documents to the historian and the archaeologist.
    MR. MARKHAM: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that The Times was not published in 1715 and that the Earl of Oxford was impeached on a charge of misdemeanour, which was not proceeded with, and that the sentence of two years imprisonment was for having recommended corruptly and improperly to the other House the making of new Peers?
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have not bestowed so much time on the matter as my hon. friend apparently has, but I have examined cursorily the documents, and I do not find that there is any imputation of corrupt creation of Peers. The impeachment turns on at least fifteen other counts as well as this, and it is not, therefore, exactly a case in point.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the precedent in which the Duke of Buckingham was impeached for selling a Peerage for £10,000 to a gentleman named Lord Roberts? A most interesting case.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: One archaeologist after another comes before me with interesting cases, but I do not think they will affect my estimate of the circumstances of the present day.

    Radiotelegraphic Report.
    SIR EDWARD SASSOON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he will, in the public interest, afford the House some opportunity of discussing the Report of the Radiotelegraphic Committee, in view of its importance to the defence and commerce of the Empire.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I do not think I can alter the decision I have announced to the House on this subject.
    SIR EDWARD SASSOONasked whether the public interest would not be serve by giving the opportunity for discussion.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: It is a matter of opinion. The Committee was not appointed on the motion of the Government; it was appointed to

    931
    please my hon. friend, and he has had his Committee.
    MR. FORSTERasked if it was the intention of the Government to deal with a matter of such grave financial importance without affording the House the opportunity of discussion.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: We proceed upon our own discretion and responsibility in the matter, and we are supported by the Report of the Committee.
    MR. GWYNNasked if the right hon. Gentleman was aware of the fact that the Committee, with the exception of his own official supporters, demanded a rediscussion, in view of facts made public for the first time.
    SIR GILBERT PARKERreminded the Prime Minister of the evidence accumulated, and asked if there was any intention to advise a revision of the Convention.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: We propose to ratify the Convention upon our responsibility and taking our view of the situation.

    Sugar Convention.
    SR EDWARD SASSOON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the variety and complexity of the subjects to be debated on the Foreign Office Vote, a short sitting may be allocated for discussing the recent departure in the policy with regard to the Sugar Convention, announced by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No, Sir, I see no advantage in a discussion at this stage. The proposals of His Majesty's Government respecting the Sugar Convention are known and are being considered by other Governments who are parties to the Convention. Till the result of this consideration is known at is not possible for the Government to make any further statement.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS (Kent, St. Augustine's)asked as to the course of business.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: We propose before taking the Criminal Appeal Bill to-morrow to take stages of the Telegraph (Money) Bill and the Post Office Sites Bill, for these are somewhat urgent. The latter is non-contentious, and the Amendments to the former are agreed upon, so that they will not occupy much time. On Monday the first business will be a Motion for allocation of time to be given to the Evicted Tenants Bill. Proposals for that purpose will be placed on the Paper to-night. On Tuesday and Wednesday the Evicted Tenants Bill will be taken in Committee. On Thurs day Irish Estimates—the Chief Secretary's Vote and the Vote for the Agricultural Department. I am not prepared, how ever, to say in what order they will be taken. I do not think it matters much which comes first.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Yes, it does.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  SUPPLY [17TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid) in the Chair.]
  CIVIL SERVICES ANT) REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1907–8.
  CLASS II.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £128,735, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1908, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and Subordinate Offices."
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.)said it might be convenient to the Committee that he should intervene with a brief statement of the work of his Department on the industrial side. He regretted that the statement had to be made at such a brief interval after the production of the Chief Inspector of Factories' Report, but in face of the complaints continually made

  933
  of the debate coming on so late in the session he had tried to expedite it. Starting with mines, the subject which chiefly interested those who were concerned—both employers and employed—was the eight-hours day. He hoped shortly to introduce a Government Bill providing that there should be an eight-hours day in mines, and that fact eased his duty on that occasion. The whole subject of safety in mines was still under consideration of a Royal Commission; and, although that did not prevent the Government from taking any measures which might seem necessary for further securing the safety of minors, he thought it best in view of differing opinions as to methods, especially of dealing with ventilation and explosives, to wait until they got the authoritative and considered opinion of the Royal Commission in regard to that question. Another question referred to the Royal Commission related to the sufficiency of the inspectorate of mines. Personally he had come to the conclusion that there should be a distinct mines branch in the Home Office. It appeared to him that this was necessary, but the question was so intimately concerned with the organisation and strength of the mines inspectorate throughout the country that he thought it best to wait for the deliberate opinion of the Commission before anything was done. He hoped that the Commission would report without much delay, but ho thought it possible that they might see their way to an interim Report in order to expedite a settlement of this part of the question. It must be a matter of great satisfaction to the Committee that His Majesty had intimated his intention of establishing a medal for gallantry in saving life in mines. Such a recognition supplied a long felt want. Passing to the Report of the chief inspector of factories and workshops, he regarded it as a Report of great interest, a proof of the admirable work done by the official staff, bus also of the heavy and perhaps the excessive labour of the present staff of inspectors. The one thing disturbing to his mind was the increased number of accidents. This matter necessarily attracted, and would continue to receive, serious attention. To what the increase was owing was, to some extent, a matter of speculation. Partly it was perhaps owing to an increased use of mechanical power and increased number of factories,
  934
  and partly to improvement in the reporting of accidents. Among the general causes suggested was the loss active supervision by employers consequent on their being covered by insurance. This was always one of the dangers which it was foreseen might accompany legislation on the lilies of the Workmen's Compensation Act, and without attributing any special blame to employers, it was but human nature that there should be a relaxation of vigilance when there was no financial responsibility. On the other hand, on reading the Report it was evident that some of the inspectors were impressed, he would not say with the in creasing, but continued carelessness on the part of the men. Constant familiarity with danger appeared to blunt the sense of danger; and that in itself created a trade danger, which the Home Office understood, and as far as possible endeavoured to provide against. It was recognised that there must be continued and increased diligence on the part of the inspectorate. Perhaps it would be well that he should mention a certain number of subjects discussed last year so as to show that the Government had been giving to them the promised attention. With regard to fish-curing, that he understood would be raised by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean later on. In regard to African boxwood poisoning, he had directed inquiries to be made. That form of poisoning had been added to the schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act as an industrial disease. Anthrax had troubled him a good deal, for there had been a considerable increase in the number of cases, and it was very difficult to find a reason for it. He had thought, perhaps, the increased activity in trade might show a greater amount of wool handled, and in some measure ac count for the increase in cases of anthrax; but the figures did not point to that conclusion. As regarded Persia, the decrease in the number of cases had been from fifteen to nine, but there had been a decrease in the importation of Persian wool from 3,000,000lbs. in 1905 to 832,000lbs. in 1906. As regards East India the figures were for 1905 thirteen cases and for 1906 twelve, while the importation of wool rose from 39,400,000 lbs. in 1905 to 46,378,0001bs. in 1906. Thus there seemed to be no relation between the amount of wool handled and the number of cases of anthrax; but the

  935
  Home Office were doing everything in their power to investigate the subject, to stimulate inquiry, and to encourage the taking of precautions. A meeting of manufacturers and officials of the Department had been taking place to consider the whole question, and had not yet terminated. He could only hope that science would suggest an absolute remedy for this terrible disease, but if not, at any rate the Department would endeavour by all known methods to safeguard work men. Then he came to the question of poisoning by anilin and nitro and amido-derivatives of bezene; a Committee had been inquiring into that matter, and such poisoning had been added to the schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act. A question on which the chief inspector laid considerable stress last year was that of sanitation and the hours of work in the fruit-preserving industry. The hours of work were still too long. Under the new Fruit Preserving Order, which had just been published, an improvement had been effected as regards sanitation, and it was now ordered that no woman or young person under sixteen engaged in this industry should be employed before six in the morning or after ten at night, and in the case of young persons ten hours must elapse between the end of work on one day and the beginning of work on the next. He hoped that by the issue of that Order very material improvement would be effected. The question of time-cribbing was also raised last year. He thought it would probably be agreed that there had been an improvement. Prosecutions had been undertaken and fines had been increased. In all 949 cases had been taken against ninety-one employers and thirty-four employees, and the result had been largely to increase the fines. An important advance made was that the co-operation of the police had been secured in five important centres —namely, Oldham, Accrington, Rochdale, Hyde, and Ashton-under Lyne. They had had great difficulty in persuading local authorities that they had a responsibility in this matter. All he could say -was that every effort would continue to be made to suppress this dishonourable practice, and the Government would be prepared, if necessary, to deal with it by legislation. He passed on to the question of dock inspection. A body of inspectors" had been organised, and great improvements had undoubtedly
  936
  been effected. Fourteen higher grade inspectors' assistants were engaged in the work, and their work had been fruitful of very excellent results. A circular had been issued to shipmasters, shipowners, and shipbuilders with regard to the new regulations, and 6,692 irregularities had been discovered. The number of prosecutions might seem very small in relation to so large a number of irregularities, but it was obvious that shipmasters and owners were unfamiliar with the regulations, and now that they had been warned they would no doubt adhere to them better in the future. Those were the leading subjects on which he was pressed last year, and he hoped the Committee would consider that the Department had been following them up with energy and not without practical success. Perhaps it was due to his Department that he should review briefly the main lines of duty which imposed such severe work upon it. At the present time they were conducting, or others were conducting on their behalf, many important inquiries. There were four Royal Commissions still at work—Commissions on Safety in Mines, on Vivisection, on the Metropolitan Police, and on the Care of the Feeble-minded, the reference to the last having been extended to the administration of the Lunacy Acts—and a number of Depart mental Committees. He included the Committee on the Truck Acts, the Mines (Eight Hours) Committee which he was glad to say had finished its labours and reported, and the Committee dealing with Industrial Diseases, which, thanks to the extraordinary zeal of his hon. friend the Member for the Cleveland Division and his colleagues, had added eighteen types of industrial disease to the schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act, and thus redeemed the promises made last year on the subject. They had had Committees of inquiry into the ambulance system of the metro polis, into the prevention of accidents in building operations, and into the best means of determining wages due when paid by measurement or weight of material handled or produced. He was glad to be able to say that the last-named Committee had come to a unanimous conclusion, and he hoped on the Report which would be presented they would be able to settle the vexed question which had disturbed the minds of his predecessors for the last fifteen years. Then

  937
  they bad dispatched a Commissioner to Australia and New Zealand to investigate the results of legislation with regard to wages boards, home work, and shop hours in those Colonies. He mentioned all these, not for their intrinsic interest, but to show the House that all these Commissions and Committees imposed a very serious labour upon his Department. What between secretarial work, serving on Commissions and Committees, giving evidence before them, and the work of communications on the various subjects being considered, these inquiries entailed constant and daily labour on the Department. He would also remind the House in passing that last year's legislation had materially interfered with the energies of his Department, which had been responsible or guilty for adding nine Acts to the Statute Book, including the Work men's Compensation Act, and others of minor importance, such as the Betting and the Copyright Acts, but which entailed great labour. He would now pass to the other work of the Department and summarise what had been done on the industrial side. Two sets of regulations had been made, first in regard to paints and colours containing lead, and secondly with regard to locomotives in factories. Four sets of regulations had been issued in draft; first, as to the manufacture of hemp and jute with a view to the diminution of dust; secondly, in regard to the handling of horse hair, to guard against anthrax; thirdly, with regard to the heading of yarn (in the preparation of which lead compounds had been used); and fourthly, with regard to the casting of brass. In addition, three sets of draft regulations were in course of preparation relating to the use of electricity in factories, aniline and di-nitro benzol processes, and tinning and enamelling. In five more cases inquiries wore proceeding with the same object, viz., steel-grinding, East India wool, lucifer matches, building operations, and earthenware and china. They had also sent out many circulars, three only of which he would mention. They had sent out an important circular to Coroners dealing, among other things, with the new Notice of Accidents Act, and the representation of trade unions at inquests, a second large circular to employers calling their attention to recent legislation, and a third circular to medical officers of health with regard to the employment of women
  938
  before and after childbirth. He now passed to Orders. They had made one Home Work Order and two Particulars Orders, one relating to a number of manufactures, of which the most important was boots and shoes, and one to not-making, pea-picking, etc. A third relating to the brass trade was also under consideration, and they had been in communication with the employers and with the workmen's representatives in regard to it. In addition they had received, as a result of local and other inquiries, eight important reports. One related to exhaust ventilation for the removal of dust, and they were about to start another with regard to the conditions of labour where a high degree of humidity was found in combination with a high degree of temperature. They had had an inquiry into an important case at Moreland's match factory, and it showed that the accident was due to causes which preceded the special regulations which had since been brought into force. There had also been inquiries into accidents and the fencing of machinery in the cotton districts, and as to the incidence of anthrax from the use of horse hair and bristles, Hon. Members had further had a report giving preliminary statistics of accidents and poisoning. This was a new departure which he thought would be of some convenience. They had now a Return of the previous year's accidents and poisoning cases early in the year instead of waiting for their publication in the Report of the chief inspector. That Return had been laid on the Table this year for the first time. There was one other subject with which he thought it necessary to deal. Last year, with the sanction of the Treasury, he increased the factory department staff by adding four inspectors, three lady inspectors, and four inspectors' assistants. He thought that was not bad for a start. He had also fulfilled his promise of going into the question of the position of the factory inspectors' assistants. He considered that a material and not unsatisfactory advance had been made, and he believed the result would be to encourage a very deserving class of public servants. New duties had also been allocated to them. He did not say that they had arrived at a final arrangement in the matter, but the whole of the higher grade assistants had now other duties than they used to perform in connection

  939
  with docks, time-cribbing, and other matters. That was a beginning, at any rate. One of the assistants had been promoted to the rank of inspector. Fourteen of the higher grade inspectors had had duties allocated to them in connection with dock inspection. When he considered the added field of inspection, he found it impossible to be satisfied with the present condition of affairs. The staff at present comprised 110 inspectors, including the headquarters staff; thirteen lady inspectors; one inspector and four assistant inspectors of textile particulars; and forty inspectors' assistants; making a total of 168. That was a large body, but when one remembered that there were 106,000 factories and 142,000 workshops in the country, and considering other figures relating to their field of work, it was clear that a staff of 168 persons, however zealous, could not possibly cover the multifarious duties cast upon them under the Factory and Workshop Act. Not only was the field too wide for the labourers to deal with, but year by year the work was increasing in complexity and in difficulty. Year by year the need made itself felt of men of the highest possible intelligence, qualification, and training. A further increase was necessary in justice to the staff and in justice to the industrial population. The chief inspector was preparing statistics with regard to the five main divisions into which the country was divided, and the 47 districts into which it was subdivided in order to arrive, as far as possible, at an accurate idea of what was essential at the present time. As soon as this bad been done the question of the increase of the staff would be considered. He had already taken steps in regard to this matter. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not present and he had not been in any official communication with him at the present time, but he had had some conversation with him on the subject. He had to report that the conversation was of an extremely friendly character, and it encouraged him to hope that there might he an increase in the number of inspectors on the staff. That was really all he had to say at the outset of the question, but he thought it best to draw the attention of the Committee to certain details of the work which had occupied them during the last year. He wished, however, to show the Committee
  940
  that the discussion last year had borne its fruit, and he only wished he could show a better record. He did not, how ever, think it was a bad one. He could only say this on their behalf, that the work of the Department last year showed an increase of twenty per cent. All, therefore, he could say was that they had been continually in a state of activity up to the limit of their means. He would. also like to remind the House that out of the twenty months in which he had had the honour of holding his office fourteen had been in the session of Parliament. That, of course, involved costly and sometimes disastrous interference with Departmental work, because not only was there legislative work to be done, but there had to be constant attendance at the House and all that that attendance meant in the way of interruption to a Home Secretary. He was sorry to put it so high, but there was no doubt that each session did bring to the Home Secretary hundreds of questions with or without notice, and of late activity in regard to these queries had been unusual. There, had, however been in the last twelve months continuous and concentrated work in the sub-departments of the Home Office, but undoubtedly with no autumn session there was a i better prospect before them this year I and they would do their best.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucester-shire, Forest of Dean)said the first part of the statement of his right hon. friend in regard to the industrial work of his Department dealt with the mines, on which other Members meant to speak. He thought he could leave to his hon. friends the discussion of the steps which should be taken to secure greater safety in mines and of improvements in regard to the inspectorate both as to mines and factories and workshops. He had no doubt the hon. Member for Leicester would follow him upon the latter point. There also ho would not intervene except to say that it was impossible to read the annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories and Workshops for 1906 without seeing the effect already of the additions which had been made in the women's departments in giving them power to do that work which they so wished to do. Those additions gave them power to cope with arrears of work by al lowing members of the staff to be detached

  941
  for separate inquiries and separate duties. There were two points in connection with industrial disease with which, however, he would like to deal. There was an allusion in the Report to the International Conference at Berne, but the matter was so completely discussed in the House of Lords on the Motion of Lord Lytton that he did not think they would be likely to raise any new points if they discussed it that day. Therefore he did not propose to do so. The point which Lord Lytton had at heart was one form of industrial poisoning which was not so important as others which had been mentioned, namely, yellow phosphorus poisoning in the match trade, and he named it that day chiefly because we had proceeded in this country in recent years to deal with the matter, and perhaps hold ourselves up to the contempt of other nations, by stating that we had adopted a particular course which would put an end to industrial poisoning without prohibiting the use of the dangerous material itself used in the industry. At the International Conference at Berne we told the other Powers that we could deal with phosphorus and lead poisoning by means of special rules and special regulations and that we could stop phosphorus necrosis by these special precautions. Unfortunately at than moment there was the outbreak of phosphorus necrosis to which his right hon. friend had alluded in his speech. His case was 'that there were efficient commercial substitutes for the use of lead or phosphorus. Of course the Committee knew that the "strike-on-the-box" matches were made from safe phosphorus, and it was the "strike-anywhere" matches from which the danger arose. If there was an efficient substitute it should be used. There was a French patent which had this result, and there was also a German patent which the Government of that country bought up and presented to the trade. Another substitute was used in the matches of Bryant and May, who used to be offenders in this respect, but whose matches were now safe. It was a commercial substitute, because it had been found that the use of yellow phosphorus was not necessary for cheapness. If they could also find a commercial substitute for the use of lead it became incumbent upon them to put a stop to those horrible forms of disease and suffering which were placed before them year by year in this Report.
  942
  Before the International Conference at Berne, there was a prohibition against the use of yellow phosphorus in matches in France, Germany, Holland, Denmark and Switzerland, and Italy had now also decided to take that step. In the United Kingdom reliance was placed upon special rules, and revision of these was under consideration. As to anthrax, there was no reason to discuss it, because there had been no retrogression of policy, but in the case of lead poisoning there had been a retrogression in policy. The Report of the Departmental Committee on compensation for industrial diseases in the pottery trade showed that they came to a negative conclusion as to one of them, although but for a single word it might be taken for an affirmative one. They said that after much anxious consideration they had arrived at the conclusion that potters' rot was a trade disease sufficiently distinguishable and specific to employment, but they said they could not recommend the immediate addition of this disease to the schedule. That was the conclusion arrived at, that it was a trade disease sufficiently distinguishable and specific to employment, but they could not recommend the immediate addition of this disease to the schedule. It was a curious fact that the Staffordshire Sentinel, which was the journal of the pottery trade both of masters and men, published the opposite conclusion in large type, and four or five days were allowed to elapse before the contradiction was allowed to become public, which looked as though there must have been some changes made at the last moment. However that might be, potters' rot was not to be treated as a disease for compensation. The other disease of the potter's trade was a very clear cause of horrible suffering which had been reduced and could be remedied by the action of this House. The reports showed that there was an increase in lead poisoning, not in the potteries only, but generally. From the Report of the Home Office the cases of lead poisoning which were the subject of Reports through the Home Office in 1905 were 209, while in 1906 they were 280. Some time ago the employment of women in white-lead making was entirely prevented, but in spite of the prevention the poisoning of women in white-lead works was rising rapidly. That subject was discussed at great length in the reports,

  943
  and the statement upon the subject by the inspectors was that their attention had, as usual, been more claimed by cases of injury through lead than by any other cause, and the deplorable incidence of plumbism among girls, in transfer making and in glass sign enamelling. Then there were the special reports of Miss Paterson on "Plumbism among women in subsidiary processes in white-lead works and amongst girls painting tape measures." The chief inspector, Miss Anderson, pointed out that—
  "making transfers was a very serious cause of cases of plumbism among young girls."
  As also was the enamelling of glass signs, which she stated was—
  "equally dangerous, that it was not a skilled occupation, and young girls were generally employed."
  Miss Vines stated that there were seven cases of lead poisoning, six of them girls under twenty, from one transfer works in the Staffordshire potteries in fourteen months, and, in addition, there was a girl of fifteen who died suddenly under suspicious circumstances. She went on to show that there was—
  "in 1906, as compared with 1905, in earthen-; ware and china works, a rise of twenty-three cases, of which four, or one more than in 1905, were fatal. In the present year there has been a further increase in fatal cases."
  Miss Vines, the special woman inspector, stated that—
  "the extremely high temperatures in dipping and ware-cleaning, and the heavy straining nature of the work done by the women engaged in lead processes contributed to lead poisoning, and expressed opinion that great heat predisposed to plumbism."
  That view was confirmed by high medical authority. The horrible amount of suffering and the great increase of fatal cases was accompanied by something which the Return did not shew, namely, an alarming increase in infant mortality, and an alarming increase of still-births. The statements as to infant mortality were terrible. The statements began with this. In Tunstall, where they were surprised at the present infant mortality, they gave cases of the effect of the cleaning of the dipping house boards which were coated with lead glazes, and the wiping up of the tubs, and the Inspectors declared that the work was quite unsuited to women and girls. Then followed the reports of the medical officers of health in all the pottery towns for the previous year,
  944
  which were terrible reading. The infant mortality, 1,100 or 1,200 deaths a year, was largely attributed by the medical officers to the women being employed in the china and earthenware works. The general statement made by the Home Office was that—
  "this high mortality is undoubtedly largely due to the extensive employment of married women in the earthenware and china works."
  When they came to the reports of the medical officers they found the medical officer for Longton describing it as—
  "a regular slaughter of the innocents every year;"
  The medical officer for Hanley as—
  "high infantile mortality;"
  The medical officer for Stoke said—
  "the infantile death rate was higher than for the previous two years … the rate for England was lower … the borough compared very unfavourably with it, and with that for the larger towns."
  The medical officer for Tunstall referred to the—
  "high rate of infant mortality, and said surely some remedies ought speedily to be brought to bear."
  The medical officer for Burslem said—
  "how unfavourably in the matter of infantile mortality Burslem compared with other districts."
  The medical officer for Fenton drew attention to—
  "the large proportion of deaths among young children."
  Those were the official facts, and they were getting worse. The service of the Lead Fund Committee was named, but this subject could not be left to private individuals. One defect was pointed out in the earthenware and china rules with regard to the washing of the overalls and the clothing of those employed. That, he imagined, was a matter that could be attended to without legislation. It was a defect in the order and not in the law. And then there was the necessity of clearing up the "moist conditions." But, the larger points that were dealt with by the chief medical inspector in his statistics of the lead-poisoning cases could not be explained away in the manner in which he attempted to do. In the Report there was a footnote which explained the unsoundness of these statistics. In admitting the fatal cases and discussing them more in detail, the Chief Inspector used some words that he would

  945
  like to mention to the House. With regard to the tinning and enamelling of hollow vessels, the words of the chief Medical Inspector were—
  "All the workers at this process become infected."
  That was a terrible admission, and he believed that in Germany, in this matter, they were far ahead of us. A Question was asked by his hon. friend the Member for Bradford on the 22nd March with regard to the number of fatal cases, and it was stated that there had been four fatal cases in the china and earthenware trade as compared with one in the previous year. There had been four in two months, six in the first six months and now seven. This proportion of fatal cases in the china and earthenware industry was the subject of a Question, and his right hon. friend the Secretary of State honestly announced—
  "I do not think any explanation can be given of the number of deaths for this year."
  As; to the use of leadless glaze, Miss Vines in her report made an observation with regard to it which he regretted, because the process had answered most successfully. On page 218, dealing with lead-less ware, she said—
  "I am told that by the use of leadless glaze all or most of the characteristics of earthenware would be at once destroyed."
  That was simply not the case. Anyone who had visited the leadless glaze works at Bristol would there see that the real characteristics of earthenware were preserved by the leadless process, even in the cheap ware. Of that there could be no doubt. She quoted a manufacturer as having said—
  "It rests with the public. If they demand a leadless glaze they would have to forego brilliant and beautiful colours."
  Then she went on to say that an eminent potter had reported—
  "Tender souled people talk about leadless glaze.… but there is less than one-fifth as much made in Staffordshire that there was five years ago."
  In the use of leadless glaze it was not necessary to forego the use of the most beautiful colours, and they could have the most perfect dinner and tea service with the use of leadless glaze. He would undertake to show Members of the House articles which were as beautiful as anything ever produced in the history of the world—English objects produced within
  946
  the last year, all absolutely leadless, and all the most difficult colours accomplished— vermilion, scarlet, Indian red, etc.—thus showing what, by experiment and taking trouble, could be done. Those who had been engaged in this agitation for years to overcome the objections to leadless ware had succeeded in getting what they wanted, at the usual cost, though with a great deal of trouble, he admitted. There was a body of opinion among manufacturers against the leadless glaze, and they had to insist upon getting what they asked for; it involved some trouble, and they had to wait some time. It might be that the quality and colour of the leadless ware were the result of peculiar care. When once they induced manufacturers to undertake its production it was probable that they bestowed greater pains upon and watched more closely the manufacture under a new process, where they were trying an experiment. Of course, it was very difficult for private individuals to meet statements as to the deterioration of leadless ware, because they had to consider the treatment it received. For instance, if it were used for certain tooth powders or washes, its colour might be affected by the strong astringents or acids brought to bear upon it. He was happy to think that Miss Vines herself partly answered her quotations. She said "supineness" and "apathy" had been shown in "experimenting." If there had been a falling off it had been in the orders from the Government Departments. He should very much doubt, after the Leadless Glaze Exhibition at the Church House last autumn, that there had not been an increased demand on the part of the public for this ware, though great difficulties had been thrown in their way. He was going to do a very foolish thing, and he was going to do it deliberately, which was invariable where foolish things were done; he was going to criticise a distinguished Civil servant. He knew that attacks on Civil servants were deprecated because they were not present to defend themselves. In this instance the official was most hard working, most talented, and most artistic and imaginative. There was a lecture given by Mr. Burton on the 30th April at the Society of Arts, which was reported at the time, and there was mother report of it in the Journal of the Society of Arts published on the 7th June

  947
  A distinguished Member of the House was in the chair. Mr. Burton was one of the greatest of English potters as regarded knowledge of the trade and its conditions. Mr. H. H. Cunynghame, of the Home Office, was present at the lecture, and he made a speech with regard to pottery. The chairman had spoken of lustre ware, beautiful specimens of which Mr. Burton had exhibited. There was nothing controversial in Mr. Burton's lecture, and he never used the word "lead." He had the two reports, that which was taken at the time and the official corrected report, and the word "lead" did not appear. Having been called upon by the chairman to take part in the discussion, Mr. Cunynghame said—
  "He took it that the beautiful pieces exhibited were heavily leaded and could not be produced without lead."
  The full report ran as follows—
  "Some years ago … there was a movement on foot, conducted by philanthropic people, who urged that the use of lead in pottery should be forbidden, because a certain number of the potters were poisoned. It was thought by those who were advising the Government that it was possible to use lead without danger."
  He did not think that was the view of those who advised the Government at that time, because the Home Office offered totally to prohibit the use of lead to an extent over 2 per cent. That percentage scarcely meant the use of lead at all, and the ware would be almost leadless. Mr. Cunynghame went on to say—
  "Wiser counsels now prevail."
  He did not understand that there had been any admission on the part of the Home Office that there had been a change of policy, except as to the possibility of obtaining local assent sufficient to carry their rules. Then Mr. Cunynghame further said that he would not—
  "rashly press changes which … would ruin a national industry.… It was impossible to produce the finest class of work without the use of lead. In the beautiful specimens exhibited by Mr. Burton a considerable amount of lead glaze had been used, and it would, therefore, be a thousand pities if anybody pressed upon the industry a total prohibition of that material, which, with discrimination, could be used with perfect safety."
  To speak of "ruining a national industry" was a terribly exaggerated statement. According to those of his way of thinking it was without foundation; and according to those who might think it had some
  948
  foundation, it was a great exaggeration, even from their point of view. Then Mr. Cunynghame took the general position that "the most dangerous chemicals could be used with perfect safety," if with proper precautions. That was a policy to which he and others took exception. Mr. Burton in reply said that, although—
  "most of the pieces exhibited were leaded, beautiful results could be obtained with both.…The old Persian lustre was made on leadless glaze, and some of his pieces were on leadless glaze."
  The report at the time was—
  "You can obtain very beautiful results with a leadless glaze, but not the same results."
  The results might be different, but it took a skilled eye to discover that lead had been used, and often an analysis had to be resorted to. He would not detain the Committee further upon that point. The Home Office had published a table giving a list of manufacturers to whom they offered advantages for using leadless glaze, glaze under 2 per cent., and glaze under 5 per cent. In the year 1898 the Home Office addressed a communication to all the Departments and sent them reports in favour of leadless glaze and advised them that—
  "In making or renewing contracts leadless glaze ware should be specified."
  He did not know whether Mr. Cunynghame advised that policy or not, but that was the policy at that time. Even the War Office was forced by the action of the Home Office, against the wishes of the manufacturers to place this stipulation in the contracts which were operative from the 1st February, 1900, for three years. The manufacturers alleged that certain articles could not be supplied in leadless glaze, but the "War Office in those contracts insisted absolutely upon leadless glaze, although it was argued that there would be delay. That, of course, was the ordinary excuse made when a customer insisted upon some change in the manufacture of an article. In 1901 the Office of Works and the Treasury sent out a circular in favour of leadless glaze, and in that year an Answer was given as to the use of leadless glaze by the Post Office, in which it was stated that the Postmaster-General hoped to overcome the difficulty so that none but insulators treated with leadless glaze would be used. In this instance there had been retrogression, because he found that a report had been received from the late Chief

  949
  Engineer proposing to discontinue the whole use of leadless glaze. The highest scientific authority which the Government could consult on this matter was of opinion that there was no ground for retrogression. He knew that the Postmaster-General was entirely upon their side in this matter, although he had great difficulty in inducing certain permanent officials to believe that leadless glaze was as good as others. There had in this matter been retrogression all round at the War Office, and the Admiralty, although the Home Office and the Treasury had told them to use leadless glaze in all their contracts. The only Answer given on this subject since the present Government came into office was given by the Chief Commissioner of Works, against whom he had not the slightest complaint, because he had taken every step that was possible to secure the object in view. His reply was—
  "The advice of this Office has not; been sought lately by the Departments mentioned."
  That was a retrogression, because formerly the other Departments were willing to seek advice from the Office of Works in making contracts. The Office of Works had taken steps to bring up to their leadless level the refreshment departments of all Offices. There was a Home Office list given of the firms complying with the leadless, the 2 per cent. and the 5 per cent. standards on page 181 of the Report, but it should not be overlooked that there were a good many firms manufacturing leadless pottery who did not come to the Government at all in this matter and who did not appear in this large list of firms, which gave a very wide field of choice. He apologised for having detained the Committee so long upon this question of dangerous processes, but he had done so because he felt that it was one in which they had gone backward instead of forward. Another matter he wished to allude to concerned the emergency processes. The fruit and fish-curing exemptions were notoriously admitted to be very dangerous exemptions from the law. Those exemptions were bitterly opposed in 1895, and also in 1901, when the Factory Bills were before the House. His right hon. friend had said there had been an improvement as regarded jam, though he admitted that the hours were
  950
  dangerously long. He had said there was to be a new Jam Order, but that would not limit the hours in a very great degree, because it allowed work between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. which were long hours. He and others also fought the previous Jam Order in this House, and they discussed it until a very late hour, but they were beaten. The Report now showed that everything they prophesied then had come true. Women were working from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. on four days a week, and on five consecutive days sometimes. Young Persons were working from 6.0 a.m. to 9.30 p.m. in these horrible places in July, and the inspectors pointed out that these long hours were "unnecessary." That was exactly his contention. The Report stated —
  "All concerned are distressingly over-worked. There is confusion resulting from the multiplicity of exceptions and unlimited hours of work. In no instance is this limited exactly to cleaning and preparing fruit, and something additional is always done. The greatest difficulty is found in ascertaining that the Order of the Secretary of State is being observed. Illegality is frequent, though evidence sufficient to base a prosecution on, is not established."
  With regard to the fish-curing exemption they were told in the Report—
  "The time is not ripe for further comment upon the condition of the fish-curing industry."
  In the Report of the Midland Division they were told that there were—
  "no complaints in respect of fish-curing except in regard to emergency processes at Grimsby."
  That was the very point. There seemed to be a curious concealment about this matter, and in Scotland the annual Report informed them that the fish-curing establishments at Aberdeen were much better on account of the efforts of the sanitary authority at Aberdeen, but very bad elsewhere, although "elsewhere" was not explained. There had been Reports from Medical Officers in Scotland on this subject called for by the action of the Home Office. He asked for those Reports not long ago, and they were refused — quite properly, no doubt—on the ground that they would be very costly to print. That statement was not accompanied by the usual intimation that those interested could see the Reports. He had not seen them and they had not been seen, so far as he knew, by anyone outside the Home Office. He was sure that they were

  951
  Reports which under proper discretion should be shown to anyone interested in the question. Some action had been taken for the purpose of preventing the extraordinarily long hours worked by women in the making-up departments of florists' shops in London. Several hon. Members interfered, and expressed themselves hostile to the action taken by the women inspectors. In the Report it was pointed out that the women were working fifteen hours a day. They also worked on Sunday. He could not conceive why they should work these hours, and if the inspectors believed that their intervention was required, that should hardly be made a matter of complaint. He would suggest that the blame here, as in the case of dressmaking, lay with those who gave orders which could not be executed in the time allowed without involving a great deal of distressing over-employment of women who were not regularly employed all through the year. It was a case in which the public sinned through ignorance, and the more public attention was called to the real cause the better it would be for those concerned. He thanked the Home Secretary for the form in which the Particulars Order had been finally issued. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman also for the inquiries to which he had referred, almost all of which had been thoroughly beneficial. Insurance under the Compensation Act had been the subject of a promise of two inquiries. He had read with the greatest admiration the evidence given by the Under-Secretary of State (Mr. Herbert Samuel) before the smaller one. The larger issue in connection with that question would have to be inquired into. He would not enlarge on the reasons which made the inquiry necessary. The only other inquiry to which he would refer was one to be held in regard to the fair wages clause. Questions had recently been asked in this House as to the possibility of interference to prevent preference being given to non- unionist firms. If that inquiry was held it should not be confined to an inquiry into facts which were the subject of inquiry some years ago by a Committee of this House, but it should deal with the larger questions which had been raised.
  *MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid the Home Secretary
  952
  was mistaken in stating that there had been an objection raised to the taking of this Vote earlier in the year. That was not the point to which objection had been taken. The point was that this year the factory inspector's Report was not published until 11th July and that they were asked to discuss it to-day. Last year the Report was published a day earlier and the Home Office Vote was taken on 1st August. He and his friends would be only too delighted if the Home Secretary would let them have the Report a few weeks earlier, but what they did object to was that this important document of 400 pages which was delivered to members last Friday morning should be discussed that day.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that if he had known there was an objection to the Vote being taken that day, he would have made representations at once in order that a more convenient day might be found. He thought it was known that the Vote was coming on that day. Questions had been asked several times as to when the Report would be published and he had the impression that hon. Members wished the Vote to be taken that day.
  *MR. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid that his complaint was that whoever was responsible for fixing the date for the discussion of the Home Office Vote had not the courtesy to inform the Labour Party when it was coining on. The Prime Minister's announcement last Thursday was the first information they had that the Vote was coming on that day. The usual procedure in such a case was to fix the dates in consultation with those who were specially interested in particular Votes. It was perfectly well known that the Labour Members were very much interested in this discussion, but no approach was made to them and no agreement was come to. He did not blame the Home Secretary himself, but it was to be hoped that in future years the same mistake would not be made. In his criticisms he would confine himself to the question of factory inspection and the organisation of the factory inspection staff. The time at his disposal would not enable him to say the nice things he would like to say of part of the work of the right hon. Gentleman's staff, and if what he had to say took

  953
  the form mainly of criticism, the right hon. Gentleman could understand that behind his criticism there was a great deal of appreciation. He was very glad to hear the admission of the Home Secretary that the dual control of certain things provided for by the Factory and Workshops Act had broken down. He and other Members had predicted years ago that it would break down, and they thought that the Home Office should make itself absolutely responsible for those things. He ventured to make an appeal that medical officers of health, if they were really going to be allowed to exercise any authority under the Factory and Workshops Act, should be removed from the control of local authorities. If the medical officer was the servant of a small local authority, the members of which were in so many instances interested in the property and in the malpractices that went on in connection with home work, how could it be expected that either the medical officer or the local authority would carry out the law in the same way as the Home Office acting through national inspectors would do?
  *SIR FRANCIS POWELLasked whether that remark applied also to large local authorities.
  *MR. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid he could give the names of large local authorities as well as small local authorities which had acted in this objectionable way. He was extremely sorry that the Home Secretary in appointing the Committee on Home Work had not put any outsiders on it. No women had been appointed on it.
  *MR. GLADSTONEpointed out that nobody but Members could sit on Select Committees. Such a Committee was inevitable sooner or later because so many novel proposals had been made to deal with sweating in the homes of the workers. The Committee, however, did not take the place of any inquiry that might be necessary on the subject, but was appointed with a view to considering legislative action to solve the difficulty.
  *MR. RAMSAY MACDONALDthanked the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation. He did not want to pursue the subject very far, but he would urge one point. If legislation was to be
  954
  proposed after the Select Committee reported, he thought an inquiry into sweating and the conditions of sweating should have preceded the appointment of the Select Committee. In his opinion the Home Secretary had put the cart before the horse. The importance of the question of inspectors could not he over-estimated. His right hon. friend had brought before the House some very important points. He wanted to urge upon the Committee that a very large part of the failure of the administration of the law was owing to the inefficient machinery they had created for administering the law. Last year he pointed out that very foolish distinctions existed between what were known as inspectors and assistant inspectors. First of all, he called attention to the fact that the monthly circular's, full of important information, were withheld from assistant inspectors. Nobody had been able to explain this except by the "class" reason that the inspector was a superior officer to the assistant inspector. The efficiency of the work was thus impaired by some edict of the Department according to which assistant inspectors were not put in possession of the material which was necessary to efficiency. There was absolutely no reason why there should be this distinction. Then he wished to know why assistant inspectors were not more frequently asked to attend inquests. Last year there were 1,116 fatal accidents, but only on six occasions were assistant inspectors called in to assist at inquests, and in four of those cases the inspector was present as well. A very serious boiler explosion took place in South London, resulting in the death of two men, but, despite the fact that the two inspectors' assistants in the district were practical engineers, one having been a marine engineer and a boiler maker, neither of them was called to put his knowledge and experience at the disposal of the State and of the people affected. South London was one of the most industrial districts of the country, and yet experienced assistant inspectors there were given duties to perform which any schoolboy might do. It was perfectly true that the right hon. Gentleman had somewhat improved the position with regard to lead-poisoning, but there had been eighty-five eases of lead-poisoning in coach-building, an increase of 50 per cent, in 1905. An inspectors' assistant

  955
  was able to go into a coach-makers' place and advise the proprietor regarding the precautions he was taking, but, if an actual case of poisoning occurred, the assistant could no longer act. He had no status, and the ordinary inspector had to be sent for to go over the work with which the assistant had been charged. There was also the question which he asked the right hon. Gentleman regarding the power of inspector's assistants to enter factories. The right hon. Gentleman replied that it depended upon the district superintendent inspector. He was bound to say he did not quite understand what that reply meant. The warrant of inspectors' assistants entitled them to enter workshops, and, when the higher grade assistants were created, their new warrants entitled them to enter factories. How could inspectors' assistants, without that amended warrant, be entitled upon the order of a superintendent inspector to enter factories? As a matter of fact, they did not enter factories, and, so far as they could find out, no such order as he had referred to had been issued. Lady inspectors, with infinitely less experience, entered factories, and made most valuable reports. Why should not inspectors' assistants have the same facilities as the lady inspectors who had less experience in precisely the same sort of work? The question very seriously affected the existence of overtime in both factories and workshops. Inspectors' assistants might see lights in what appeared to be a workshop, but which might be a factory. They never quite knew whether they were entitled to enter. In the first blush of his enthusiasm an inspector's assistant would undoubtedly enter, but at last he began to settle down, and, because he was often thrown back from the door of a factory, he ultimately ceased to be an efficient inspector for detecting overtime in workshops.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that as a matter of fact four inspectors' assistants were engaged in the work of factory inspection, and there was no finality about the change.
  *MR. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid he was coming to that. He hoped his criticisms would help the right hon. Gentleman to come nearer to perfect finality. If the right hon.
  956
  Gentleman would seriously inquire into the evil effect of inspectors' assistants being hampered in this way, he felt perfectly certain he would discover a state of mind in assistant inspectors which he would see it was his duty to remove by changing the conditions under which they did their work. The right hon. Gentleman last year told them that the position of inspectors' assistants was an anomaly which could not be maintained, and he had undoubtedly done something to make changes. He had for instance, enabled some inspectors' assistants to visit docks, but if there happened to be a warehouse at the dock using machinery precisely the same as was used in the docks as part and parcel of the dock work, he could not enter. He was bound to pass that factory; and the ordinary inspector had to tread upon his footsteps. Certain inspectors' assistants were undoubtedly allowed to examine and inspect for time cribbing, but under what conditions? They might enter a factory before or after the legal hours, but they were not allowed to be inside during them. Another improvement which the right hon. Gentleman had made was very limited in its scope. The other day he allowed three inspectors' assistants to sit for an examination, and one passed. That was a most inadequate way of meeting the promise he gave last year, seeing that there was much leeway to make up. If the right hon. Gentleman looked at the Civil Service Commissioners' Report he would find that the difference between the three in marks was infinitesimal. Surely he was treating the matter in a petty-fogging way in dealing with it as he had done. He nominated three inspector's assistants to sit for this examination, and then although they had evidence that they would all be competent inspectors, yet two were rejected and one was passed. It must be remembered that this was not an open examination of outsiders. It was a test imposed upon men who, after ten or fourteen years service, were chafing under the limitation imposed upon them in regard to their service of the State. That was a very inadequate fulfilment of the promise that the right hon. Gentleman gave a year ago. Owing to the short time he had had to examine this Report he was in some difficulty, but he thought he was correct in saying there

  957
  was no account given as usual of the number of miles travelled by factory inspectors and of their inspections, If this information was in the Report it was not in its old place. It was a very serious omission, and he could not see why it was made except to avoid showing the very serious defects in the organisation of the staff. The right hon. Gentleman himself had said that those figures were an indication of the way in which the staff was organised, and the greater the number of miles travelled the more the inefficiency of the organisation of the staff was shown. He also complained of the artificial distinctions which existed in regard to the staff, and said that the failure to visit factories was becoming very alarming. It appeared that 6,700 had not been visited since 1904, and as many as 14,500 wore not visited in 1906. That was a reduction of 500 on 1905, taking the figures from the Blue Book, and he did not think that such a reduction showed that there had been any praiseworthy effort made. There was unnecessary duplication of working, owing to inspectors for different purposes being sent to the same place, and he knew of a case where three Government inspectors visited the same building and there were four local inspectors visiting it as well. Their duties were quite separate, and not one of them could do the work of each other's department. The right hon. Gentleman complained about his Department being overworked, but it appeared that all Departments were overworked, and he thought that a great deal of labour night be saved if this one were more soundly organised. Nor was he convinced that this Department had got the best material for its purpose. Better material was to be had to carry on its work, and it was possible to set about getting that material in a better way. If he had had any doubt on that subject it would have been dispelled by a recent visit abroad where he went into the question of the appointment of factory inspectors in the countries which he visited. They were admirably organised, and did their work in an admirable way. These countries did not adopt the superficial and artificial plan of selecting men by an examination which had nothing to do with the work which they would be required to perform. The Return of the staff and the occupations of its members before appointment
  958
  which had been presented to this House on his Motion was very interesting, and showed that there was a change in 1900 and 1901 in the tests imposed upon the candidates for inspectorships. Before that date the lists of candidates were practically one long repetition of "engineer," "engineer," "engineer." When they came to 1901 and 1902, however, they got a different class of men including analysts, university men of different degrees, a schoolmaster, a confidential clerk in a linen factory, a manager, science lecturers, electrical engineers, and others. A paper on English literature was set to test the capacity of men to protect the lives of people working where machinery was in operation. One of the questions was "How does the Shakespeare Comedy resemble and differ from the Ben Jonson. Illustrate your answer.'' Such a test was absurd unless it was so designed to select factory inspectors from the class possessing social distinction. 'The right hon. Gentleman had done something to meet them, but, taken as a whole the organisation of the factory department no longer commanded confidence. The Factory and Workshops Act required stiffening and supplementing at a good many points. The condition and organisation of the staff, the administration of the Act, and the alterations required in the law might very well be made the subject of inquiry by a committee of experts in order to guide the right hon. Gentleman in his future action. He was satisfied that there would be a recommendation that more assistant inspectors should be created, and that there ought to be a system under which they should be passed up in accordance with the efficiency they showed in administering the powers conferred upon them. Another point which he thought would be recommended was that the walls between the different portions of the staff should be broken down so that it should be a coherent whole, and so that the members might rise to the position to which they were entitled. The local superintendent inspectors should have more power than they now had to give directions as to how their assistants should occupy themselves. A complete change also should be made in the examinations now imposed on inspectors so as to bring them into closer touch with industrial life and life in the workshops. The head of the Department

  959
  should not be a medical officer of health. He believed an impartial inquiry would recommend such changes, and if the changes were made he felt perfectly certain that the taxpayers' money would be saved, that the Department would be more efficient and better men would be found to go on the staff. In spite of the improvements made by the right hon. Gentleman he still thought it would be possible to make much greater improvements.
  MR. BRACEsaid he desired to associate himself with every word of appreciation which had been uttered with regard 10 the action taken by His Majesty in connection with the mining industry. For a long time his attention had been directed to this matter, but in his most sanguine moments he never anticipated that His Majesty would have taken the action he had. He had also been much interested in what the right hon. Gentlemen had said with regard to the Eight Hours Bill, and hoped that it would be soon introduced. He also rejoiced in the statement that it was the right hon. Gentleman's intention to reorganise the Home Office, and that a purely mining section was to be established. He ventured to express the hope that in the reorganisation of that Office, with especial reference to mining, the right hon. Gentleman would give particular attention to considering the desirability of having a direct representative of labour attached to the Home Office staff. He had always felt that both the workmen and the Home Office lost considerably by having no direct connection between the miners and the administrative Department. He, however, rose for the purpose of dealing with two questions of first importance to the miners of this country, and of Wales in particular. He had recently received the very important Report of Mr. Atkinson and Mr. Lewis on the colliery accident in Genwen, and was particularly impressed with the way in which the inspectors reported. The point on which they thought there was a direct considerable and serious breach of the rules was the fact that—
  "The firemen reported that if they found gas and cleared it out of the way they did not enter it upon their report, and the finding of the gas was never reported. General Rule 4 requires a report specifying where noxious or
  960
  inflammable gas, if any, was found present. It seems evident that the manager took no steps to ensure full compliance with this rule. No record of persons allowed to have lamp keys was kept, as required by Special Rule 183. The main separation doors between the intake and the return air currents consisted of a wooden door and a canvas sheet, whereas Special Rule 73 requires that all main doors are double."
  The inspectors very properly took proceedings against the colliery owners in consequence of the violation of the rules, and they were convicted and fined £5 and costs. What he desired to ask was, what earthly advantage was it to proceed against the colliery owners, and inflict a fine of that character? Was there no power in the hands of the Home Office to bring greater pressure upon colliery owners to conform to the rules, and to inflict heavier penalties than a fine of £5 and costs? In addition to that Report he had received one from the Miners' Federation, who always sent their own people to these inquiries. In their Report they spoke with much greater certainty upon this matter. But in the Home Office inspector's Report there was a strong case for the Department to do something to bring greater pressure to bear upon these who were responsible for sending men into eternity without a moment's notice. In this connection he found himself face to face with the interim Report of the Committee which sat to inquire into the question. In that Report they said with reference to the two explorers who were killed by after-damp in the return airway, that it was possible, or even probable, that if suitable appliances had been at hand and had been resorted to without delay, they might have been rescued, but the organisation of the rescue work was so defective that it was not known that those men were missing until several hours after they had gone into the return airway. In the exploring work two men gave their lives in the attempt to succour their comrades, but no arrangements had been made in any of the mines of this country by which exploring could be made safer. His Majesty had done well in instituting a decorative order, but surely in these days of science men ought not to be called upon to risk their lives in attempting to succour their fellows when with the appliances that now existed rescue work could be conducted under safer conditions. The adoption of rescue appliances was not a new suggestion.

  961
  In the interim Report of the Royal Commission he found that during the year 1881, an apparatus was used in connection with the explosion at the Seaham Colliery, Durham, and in connection with the Killingworth disaster in 1882. Since then nothing had been done to perfect the apparatus until interest in the matter was revived by the construction in 1900 of an experimental gallery for testing life-saving apparatus, by Mr. Garforth, at Messrs. Pope and Pearson's Altofts Collieries, in which the state of a mine roadway after an explosion was reproduced on a small scale in order to accustom men to the use of the apparatus in conditions such as were likely to be met with underground. In the event of an explosion, anything which facilitated the rapidity and safety with which the ventilation could be restored and the after-damp removed, must contribute towards the saving of life. Most of the deaths were caused by after-damp, and men were frequently alive for a considerable time after the explosion occurred. He ventured to submit to the Home Secretary that to talk of the invention being too cumbersome for a man to carry on his back when looking through a mine for his fellows was to miss the point altogether. That might be so, but a man with this appliance on his back would be able to make for and put up the doors that had been blown down by the explosion, and so give a current of air in the mines which would assist greatly in the saving of life. The question of the use of such apparatus was among the matters considered by the Royal Commission on Accidents in Mines (1880–1886), and after commenting on the services rendered by the "Fleuss" apparatus on the occasions referred to, they recommended that—
  "Arrangements should be made for the establishment of centres in mining districts, where additional appliances for succour and relief, and also special appliances for exploring purposes, should be maintained in an efficient condition, so as to be ready for use at the shortest notice."
  They added that—
  "It is most desirable that facilities should be afforded for the instruction of men in the use of special auxiliary appliances for exploring purposes.
  That recommendation had not been given effect to, because the right hon. Gentleman had no object in bringing pressure to bear on colliery owners to realise
  962
  their responsibility on this question. What other Governments could do the British Government could do, in mercy to these men who risked their lives. In some Continental countries greater attention had been given in recent years to the question of breathing appliances. In Austria their provision had been made compulsory; in Germany, though no regulations had been made by the Government on the subject, a great deal had been done voluntarily, and many of the larger collieries were provided with sets of apparatus. In France, as a result of the Courrières disaster, the question was referred for inquiry to a special commission, and as a result of their Report, a decree was issued in April. 1907, by the Minister of Public Works, making the provision of breathing appliances compulsory in French coal mines. If the French Government thought it desirable to take such steps, our Government ought to exert themselves, and not rest satisfied until these inventions had been perfected, even at the expense of the nation. He was quite aware that a Royal Commission was now sitting, and that they had not gone further than the following—
  "After fully considering the results of experience here and abroad, we are of opinion that the question is ripe for further development in this country, and demands the serious attention of the industry. We have considered whether it would be desirable to make the provision of any of these appliances compulsory, and we have come to the conclusion that sufficient advance has not been made in this country to justify such a course at present."
  He thought that showed the attitude taken up by the Royal Commission. He had three esteemed colleagues on that Commission, and he desired to pay full deference to their judgment; but he would say to the Home Secretary that if the coal owners between now and the time when the final Report had been presented had not perfected the whole system of rescue appliances at their own expense, he should bring pressure to beat on the Royal Commission to do something more than consider the question of making compulsory the provision of rescue appliances throughout the United Kingdom He ventured to submit these proposals from South Wales and Monmouth, where they had sufficient cause to regret the long list of explosions. He suggested that if they did not possess the power they should seek it, to penalise either colliery

  963
  managers or owners who through their negligence, had been responsible for loss of life in the mines of the country; and, secondly, if it was found in practice that the colliery owners did not respond to this recommendation of the Royal Commission, and voluntarily agree to establish at the collieries these rescue appliances, for use in a mining disaster, something should be done to take the matter out of the category of recommendation, and to make such provision compulsory on all colliery owners in the United Kingdom. Undoubtedly, a large number of colliery owners when they saw these statements would feel their responsibility, and provide the appliances voluntarily; but if some of them proved indifferent to the claims of humanity, he hoped that the Home Secretary would bring the influence of his high office to bear upon them, so that if unhappily an explosion occurred, which God forbid, they would not have to regret the loss of brave rescuers, as in the two cases he had quoted, where the men went into the mine to save their fellows and were sent into eternity, simply because there were not the rescue appliances, and because the conditions at the colliery were such that they were not able to explore.
  *MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid the hon. Member who had last addressed the House complained of too little notice of the date of the debate and of too little time for the study of the Blue-book which reached him only on Thursday. In some respects he was more fortunate than the hon. Member, but in some he was less so. For though he knew earlier of the date of the debate he did not receive a copy of the Blue-book until Monday. The hon. Member for Leicester had referred to the examinations for inspectors of factories and had thrown ridicule on literary subjects being included in the test. His own experience of these matters ranged over a considerable number of years, and he felt convinced that higher education and culture, though not indispensable, were most likely to make the inspector an efficient officer. He could not help thinking that a University education was no drawback to an inspector of factories, but was calculated to make him a more efficient public servant. Before he passed to the main theme of the industrial conditions referred to in the
  964
  Blue-book, he wanted to say a word about the children in prisons. He was not going to trespass on anything which would entail legislation. His right hon. friend had certain powers under the Youthful Offenders Act for the framing of regulations. The right hon. Gentleman had told them in the speech to which they had listened with so much interest and pleasure, of the numerous circulars and orders which he sent out under his powers, conferred by the Act of 1901. Having these powers to frame regulations under the Youthful Offenders Act, would it not be in the power of his right hon. friend to ask local authorities to treat children under sixteen years, who were under arrest, better than they were being treated at present, and not put them in gaol? Children arrested in London and in some other large towns after the police courts had risen for the day, were, in default of bail, detained in police stations until the following day. If arrested on Saturday, they might be lodged in cells until the following Monday morning. During 1905, thirty seven children under ten years, eighty-six between ten and thirteen, and 293 between thirteen and sixteen years, slept in police stations, prior to admission to the remand homes. In Manchester, however, boys under seventeen and girls under eighteen were never detained at police stations, but lodged after arrest in the Boys and Girls Refuges. It should be remembered that out of a total of 2,518 convictions for non indictable offences, registered against juveniles under sixteen, during 1904, 554 were for contraventions of police regulations, 1,132 for offences against the Vagrancy Act, while out of 450 cases of stealing, 432 were for stealing fruit, and plants. The present procedure whereby youthful delinquents were brought before the ordinary Courts, and were sentenced by magistrates accustomed to judge hardened offenders, needed reform. Passing from that, he would draw his right hon. friends attention to the figures in the Blue-book showing the increase in the number of accidents. The increase in the number of fatal accidents had been 5 per cent., and of accidents of all sorts 11.5 per cent. There had been an increase in the number of electrical accidents, though there had been no increase in the number of persons employed. The increase of

  965
  electrical fatalities was 4.66 per cent. There was an increase of deaths from lead-poisoning, the total of deaths being thirty-three the percentage increase being 1030 per cent.; the total number of these cases was 632, or an increase of 40.6. The increase in the number of cases of anthrax was twenty-two, or 4.18 per cent. It was difficult to assign these figures to any one cause, but among the causes which must be taken into account was the looseness of control due to the voluntary system. He would urge the right hon. Gentleman to consent to the abolition of a system under which they had to ask people to do certain things which they had no right to enforce. Whether they considered electrical works or laundries, or bronzing in lithographic works, or dry cleaning, he could prove that the voluntary principle had continued to be a serious source of accidents. The administration of the law was lax, and they wanted in the hands of the Minister power to enforce what was required. For instance, on page 187 of the Annual Report for 1906, Miss Tracey said—
  "Where machinery is used, the dangers of it appeared but little recognised, and in several cases my suggestions as to protection were not carried out for the avowed reason that they were not compulsory."
  This had reference to laundries in institutions, but he would not labour the point, because it was one with which every hon. Member was familiar. He would pass to electrical works. He must say how grateful and how glad he was to hear from his right hon. friend the Home Secretary that at last there were in draft certain rules which he proposed to issue to these electrical works. It was a matter in respect of which he had been agitating for a considerable number of years. He wanted to quote three sentences from Mr. G. Scott Ram, who was electrical inspector. Mr. Ram, on page 262 of the annual Report for 1906, said—
  "In my previous Reports I have described a number of the various dangerous conditions of electrical plant which I have come across during the year. I have again a similar selection to bring to your notice."
  After describing the death of a man from shock, in which he had received 230 volts through his body to earth, being unable to release his hold of the
  966
  lamp until the current was switched off Mr. Ram went on to say—
  "I described and commented upon an exactly similar fatality in my last year's Report. There is little, if anything, new in the nature of the accidents, and any comments which I make upon them must necessarily be in the nature of repetition of the remarks I have nude in former Reports."
  He noticed that Mr. Scott Ram made that kind of apology, and it was with great pleasure that he heard that the right hon. Gentleman was going to frame some new regulations. Again, Mr. Scott Ram said—
  "This switchboard was apparently satisfactory so far as the working platform was concerned, but the various passage ways in connection with it were a series of death traps.⤦. three bare and unprotected bus bars at 6,000 volts. The floor of this passage way was of iron, and the clear width was about 18 inches ….No means of access was, however, provided for getting to these plug switches other than along the passageway described. Even assuming that the attendant should safely reach the plug switches there was no room for him to work them,…. there was exposed live metal within 3 or 4 inches of the handles, and the bus-bars were, of course, close to; (the combined arrangement being such as to offer a great and totally unwarrantable risk in operation.")
  He read that quotation because one of the recommendations made by the Departmental Committee appointed ten years ago was that passages and gangways should be covered with an insulating mat and kept in an efficient state of insulation. Mr. Ram described another case—
  "An undesirable feature, not unfrequently met with, was also present here, namely, apparatus, requiring occasional handling, fixed on the wall of the other side of the passageway. In this case some of it was arranged in a particularly dangerous manner. Some high pressure switch fuses for instrument transformers were fixed on the back wall at 6 feet from the iron floor. In order to handle them a man would have to stand with his back towards the live terminals of the main portion of the switch-board, one of which was so placed that he would almost certainly touch it with the back of his head when handling the switch fuses. It is difficult to account for the apparently reckless want, of thought in cases such as this, where the danger is so obvious and of such serious kind, i.e., sudden death to the unwary attendant."
  Another of the same Committee's recommendations was that in all switchboards the main switches should be insulated or arranged in such a way as would render it impossible for any person to touch them. He gave those two illustrations

  967
  to show how necessary it was that this danger, which had been the cause of an increased number of deaths, should be placed under more strict regulations. He noticed that Miss Deane and Miss Slocock had made a special report on bronzing in which they said—
  "We have seldom found the voluntary Special Rules satisfactorily carried out."
  "We have found bronze dust lying thickly all over and around the machine, and powdering the hands, faces, hair, and clothes of the workers."
  Then they described a new bronzing machine which they said was expensive, but the cost would be quickly repaid, not only in the bronze which would be saved, but in time and greater efficiency in the work and the safety of the workers. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consent to pass special regulations for bronzing in lithographic factories, and those people who were good enough to provide themselves with this expensive bronzing machine need not necessarily comply with the more stringent regulations. In Germany they had special rules dealing with this trade, and he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that Inspectors Miss Deane and Miss Slocock reported upon this point that they—
  "look upon it as a serious feature in conditions of industry, requiring more attention than has been given to it."
  With regard to dry cleaning there was a circular in the Report in which his right hon. friend expressed some pious opinions which were admirable, but they were only pious opinions and nothing else, and they were expressed by his Committee which sat in 1896. All sorts of recommendations were made that the women and girls should wash their hands and be provided with wet sand and other materials for putting out fires, because there was great danger of the benzine igniting. The Memorandum went on to say—
  "It is desirable that women and young persons should be periodically examined by the Certifying Surgeon."
  Then, if it was desirable, why, in the name of common sense, was it not made obligatory? That brought him to the Report of the Under-Secretary's Committee on industrial diseases to be scheduled for the Compensation Act, an interesting, and a valuable contribution to the industrial literature of that House.
  968
  But there were one or two important omissions in that report. One of them had been dealt with by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, and the other was the dangers incurred by naphtha. Last winter, in replying to the speech of the hon. Member for West Ham, the Under-Secretary rather poohpoohed the idea that there was any danger from naphtha. He wanted to deal with this question because Professor Glaister brought two cases of death from naphtha before the Committee. He would like to call attention to Miss Paterson's report in 1899, in which she said—
  "I visited a number of them (workers in naphtha) in their homes and also the doctors near two large factories employing a large number of girls, and learned that a reduced state of health is looked on as the usual result of such employment."
  Later on in 1902 Miss Paterson reported—
  "I have had interviews with a number of workers, and have heard from them much of the varying symptons of anæmia, shortness of breath, palpitation, headache, with some pain and functional disturbances."
  Why had naphtha been rejected by his right hon. friend? He had stated that when a man died from naphtha in the cases quoted it was considered to be an accident, and in other cases where the girls had suffered he understood that the Committee's position was that there was no definite illness and nothing which could be called chronic, which was specifically attributable to this substance. There was another case in the Glasgow Western Infirmary under the care of Dr. Finlayson, which was reported in the British Medical Journal—
  "At that lime he was unconscious and lay breathing heavily,… he afterwards became very restless and almost maniacal, he tried to get out of bed, saying that he was late for his work. He vomited several ounces of greenish fluid.… For the most part the patient continued exceedingly restless, with diarrhœa and vomiting at intervals."
  "The necropsy, made by Professor Muir, showed that the lower portions of both lungs, were consolidated, of a reddish grey colour, and at parts coated with a thin film of fibrin. In the upper part of the left lung there were a number of small ragged cavities where the lung tissue was beginning to break down; both lungs showed signs of an acute bronchitis."
  Any material used which was capable of producing such results as those ought certainly to be scheduled as dangerous. On this matter he wished for a moment

  969
  to analyse the position of the Committee. If it was true that the man died from naphtha poisoning, and that it was an accident, let them compare it with anthrax. It had been held in a Court of law that anthrax poisoning was an accident, yet anthrax was scheduled in the Workmen's Compensation Act. There was all the more reason why they should schedule naphtha, whose evil effects had never been held by a Court to be an accident. The effects which were produced in workers connected with the naphtha trade should surely make the trade rank as a "dangerous trade" in which compensation should be given. He begged his right hon. friend to consider this case. If he did so in the way suggested he would earn the gratitude of a very large and increasing number of workers using this substance. Workers in naphtha were denied special protection; for the want of it they got ill, and were then denied compensation.
  *MR. SUMMERBELLsaid the reasons which had been urged by the hon. Member for Leicester against the present method of appointing factory inspectors applied equally to the method of appointing mining inspectors. During the past year he had asked the Home Secretary several Questions on this subject. From a Return with which he had been supplied he found that in regard to the mining inspectors there had been four separate examinations. Two applicants were exempted from examination, and he wanted to know why they were exempted. He found also that out of six cases where there were examinations only one nomination was made. He wanted to know how many applicants there were. There were fifteen separate examinations in respect of assistant-inspectors, but out of six cases there was only one nomination. Two applicants were exempted from examination. One man had acted as assistant inspector twenty-two weeks before he sat for examination. In his own district there were men who held the necessary certificate, and had sent in applications with the view to becoming colliery inspectors, but none of them had been allowed to sit for examination. He would like to get an explanation why they were not examined. He was against the system of selection and nomination. He contended that more
  970
  efficient inspectors would be obtained if their qualifications had previously been ascertained by examination. Many men who had done practical work in the mines were prevented by the present system from obtaining positions as mining inspectors. Ho called attention to the terms of the contracts under which the clothing for prison warders was made, and stated that a complaint had been made that the regulations required in regard to work for other Government Departments were not complied with in the case of the Home Office. In the case of the Post Office the contractor undertook that all garments should be made in his own factory, and that no work should be done at the houses of the workpeople. Any infringement of that condition, if proved to the satisfaction of the Postmaster-General, rendered the contractor liable to a penalty not exceeding £100 for each offence. The clause in the contracts for work done for the Homo Office was not, in his judgment, so satisfactory, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would introduce into future contracts a clause similar to that in the Post Office contracts for clothing. If the right hon. Gentleman could do so, he would remove much friction which existed at present, and they would be in a position of knowing that there was no danger from infectious disease and unfair conditions of labour.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTTsaid he desired to call attention to a matter which he hoped would receive the sympathetic consideration of the Home Secretary, namely, the question of the police charges levied on the cab industry in London. He did not think many hon. Members were aware of what these charges were, nor could they know that the industry at the present time was not in such a flourishing condition as it was some years ago when the charges were first instituted. Since those days there had been introduced the competition of the "tubes," motor cabs, and motor omnibuses. These new modes of travelling had had a prejudicial effect on the cab industry, and yet the charges to which he was referring remained the same as before. The driver's licence cost 5s., the plate licence £2, and in addition there was the Inland Revenue wheel tax of 15s., making £3. The money was applied to payment of an inspecting

  971
  staff; but, inasmuch as inspection was as much, if not more, in the interest of the public as in that of the cab drivers, it would be only fair that the public should contribute a share. In 1905 the revenue from cabs and omnibuses, including motor omnibuses and cabs, was £40,000, and the expenditure £39,000. He appealed on the ground of common fairness on behalf of horse drawn cabs, which were now subjected to keen competition, for a considerable reduction in the charges.
  *MR. SHACKLETONsaid the speech of the right hon. Gentleman was one of the most encouraging they had had on the Home Office Vote since he had been in the House, and they were very grateful for the work he had done. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the inquiries which were going on, and they looked forward to his having opportunities of dealing with the matters which were being inquired into. He wished to refer to the inquiry with regard to the humidity in the cotton cloth factories. The question had been brought before the right hon. Gentleman's notice, and he wished to express his extreme pleasure that he had responded to their requests in such a speedy manner. They were fully confident of their case, and if the employers, when they were brought together, could not agree, they would have to persist in it. It was also highly gratifying to know that the staff had been increased, and one remark by the right hon. Gentleman led them to believe that there was room for still greater increase. The right hon. Gentleman said he had not consulted the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but in this case there would not, he imagined, be much difficulty, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been in the position of Home Secretary, and no doubt had full knowledge of the requirements of that department. This, coupled with the earnestness with which ho knew the right hon. Gentleman would make his requests, should be sufficient to get for them a grant which would enable a big increase to be made in the staff. The annual Report proved that the Inspectors required more help; their districts were too large, and they had too many factories and workshops to attend to. Proper inspection could not be attained unless
  972
  there was some further increase. It was for that reason that in the cotton district they had asked for outside assistance in the matter of time cribbing. They felt that the employers were defying the inspectors and that the staff could not meet the urgency of the case. Hon. Members might not understand what time cribbing was. Some of the people in the cotton mills were paid by the piece and some by the day. The engine was started some few minutes before the time and was kept running some minutes after the time, and all this extra work was put in in many cases without pay. From the point of view of physique alone, this time cribbing ought to be stopped. Of course, so far as individual members were concerned, the Operatives Associations could not be responsible, but they discouraged the practice of working during the meal hour in every possible way. There might be cases where the operatives were somewhat to blame, but the employer was solely responsible for the engine being started and stopped at the proper time. So far as that was concerned, no stones could be thrown at the operatives. The inspector for the South-West Division reported as follows on the question—
  "Very little that is new can be said on the subject which in its generally accepted term refers solely to cotton mills and to their practice of running the engine and machinery a few minutes both before and after the legal periods. For this the employers alone can of course be held responsible, though up to now at any rate many of the employed, being on piecework, had not been averse to the practice, and where it had been checked complaints had been heard of the consequent reduction in money earned. There are signs, however, now that the more recent Rotation carried on by the Operatives Associations will have the effect of leaving those dishonest employers who continue to crib time without any sympathiser."
  They were glad to notice that from the Superintendent Inspector in their district. He would like to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman to p. 136 of the Report, where there was a reference by the Inspector. He said—
  "Mr. Lewis (Manchester), Mr. Crabtree (Oldham), and Mr. Clark (Bolton) each write strongly on the prevalence of this offence in their districts, whilst Mr. Taylor (Blackburn), and Mr. Rogers (C.C.F.) report more favourably on theirs."
  The Superintendent Inspector therefore went out of his way to give two quotations from the inspectors who reported favourably, whilst he did not give a

  973
  single sentence of the three men who condemned the practice seriously. He asked whether there ought not to be as much attention called to the condemnation of the practice as to those cases where it was said there had been an improvement, and whether the Chief Inspector should not at least do what he could in his report to discourage it by giving prominence to the condemnation of it. Then there was another point with regard to the number of prosecutions. There were eight districts, affecting thousands upon thousands of operatives, 'millions of spindles and hundreds of thousands of looms, but there had been only 886 cases reported, and the fines and costs totalled only £1,149, an average of 16s. 4d. in fines and 9s. 7d. in costs. Those who knew the cotton mills in the last few years know that these fines could be made up in a day by running excessive time. It was absolutely nothing to a man who had thousands of spindles and looms running overtime for three hours a week to be fined a paltry sum of 16s. 4d. in each case. So far as fines were concerned, the question would have to be dealt with in a more severe manner. If in a mill there were 150 operatives being employed illegally cases should be brought in regard to them all, and not merely in regard to twenty, and if the magistrates exercised any leniency it should be in regard to the whole number and not merely with regard to a half dozen or so. They had to thank the right hon. Gentleman for having obtained the assistance of the police through the watch committees in checking time cribbing. The method they suggested and which the right hon. Gentleman had accepted was that the police, who numbered roughly 1 to 1,000 of population, should, if they found on their rounds a mill going before or after the proper time, report the matter to the inspectors. Any policeman in Lancashire could tell without going into the mill whether a mill was running for production or merely for trying purposes. The Home Secretary had asked as many watch committees as would to adopt this policy, but they thought he might move a little further in the matter and extend his inquiries. There were a number of watch committees where there were no borough police, and they, as well as the watch committees where there were borough police and the county authority at
  974
  Preston, should receive the Home Office circulars. They had to complain that in this connection they did not think the inspectors were taking kindly to the police coming into the business. They had this from people who were in the towns and who had to make reports. He would give a case which occurred within the last two month. In April of this year the police saw and heard the machinery full at work at 5.55 in Royal Mills, Oldham. The assumption was that the mill had been running some minutes then. Information was sent to the inspector, but he suggested that it would be better if he tried to catch them himself. It was a firm which was known to be guilty of the practice, and he suggested that it would be better if he went and saw what he could do on his own. He went and caught them, but he only took out twenty-six summonses, though ho might have taken at least eighty. The management were very obstinate, and denied it. They said it was an odd case which the inspector had happened to come across. This was the usual excuse of employers who did all they could to prevent inspectors doing their work efficiently. There was in a mill what was called a Moss crop indicator, and this machine indicated the correct time. Reports were made frequently that the mill was running overtime, and both the inspector and the police had discovered it, but still the indicator only gave the correct time. The secret was found out afterwards and before the case was tried, but still the inspector did not proceed. It was found that the indicator would only indicate at sixty strokes a minute of the engine, and in order to deceive the inspector the engine was run at fifty-five strokes a minute till the correct time. Surely in such a case the inspector ought to have been as severe as possible, and to have taken more than twenty-six cases. The result was that fines of 20s. and costs in ten cases were inflicted, the costs only being required to be paid in the others. What was the language of the inspector? He said he thought the firm ought to be more careful because they knew of the fact as to the working of overtime, He said he did not want to be hard with them, but he wanted it to be known that the Factory Act must be carried out. Coming to the case of the Clough Mills, Shaw, the House would rind it reported

  975
  that the inspector only brought thirteen cases where he could have brought eighty. While these proceedings were going on a notice was found posted up behind. a door to the effect that if certain classes of workpeople left the mills before the engine stopped they would be discharged without notice. It was well known that this firm had been caught by the inspector and prosecuted, and yet the notice was put up. The chairman of the bench stated that he thought the inspector had dealt very leniently with defendants by bringing only thirteen summonses. He thought it was very lenient, as they had attempted to hoodwink the inspector, and the firm had been brought before the Court several times. His correspondent said he must frankly confess that he was of opinion that the inspectors were against the police being called upon to have any thing to do with this time cribbing business because they believed it might take some of the authority from their hands. He could truthfully say on the most reliable information that already in Oldham the sanction given to the police to assist in the work of detecting time cribbing had materially tended to make their limited companies more honest in loyally carrying out the Factory Acts, as in the space of time in which the police had been employed they had had considerably less complaints than formerly. He thought the police should be brought in to assist the inspectors. There was a machine for checking the action of the engines, and he thought the employers had had sufficient time given to them to improve this state of things. He thanked I the Home Secretary for his promise, and on their part they would give him all the encouragement they could in their several districts.
  *THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (MR. HERBERT SAMUEL, York- shire, Cleveland),replying to some of the points advanced during the debate, said that his right hon. friend entirely agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken as to the evils of time cribbing. It was certainly a mean action on the part of employers to steal the workmen's time, as was being done notoriously in many mills in Lancashire. A difficulty in the matter was that of securing cumulative fines. In one case, for instance, where twenty.
  976
  six charges were made against a firm the magistrates imposed fines in respect of only ten. The factory inspectors had now definite instructions no longer to take only one or two cases but to take out a number of summonses in every case. As to the provision of an automatic indicator of the running of the engines, that was a matter for legislation. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean had raised three questions—the questions of lead, fruit preserving, and fish curing. On all these points the Home Office had within the past twelve months taken action. It was no doubt lamentable that the figures in lead poisoning again showed an upward tendency. Every case meant a terrible amount of human suffering, and it was but a poor consolation to say that compensation would be paid. The number of cases last year was 632, against 592, a considerable increase; but it should be noted that in 1899 the number was 1,258, and in the year after that 1,058, so that they had, at any rate, the consolation of knowing that the average number had been reduced by something like 50 per cent, since that time. Although the reduced figures might give some satisfaction, they in no sense afforded any reason for the relaxation of efforts to stamp out industrial diseases. The condition of things could not be described as satisfactory until they had been reduced to an absolute minimum. The Home Office had endeavoured during last year to cope in various ways with this question. They had made regulations for the safety of workers in the trade of grinding paints and colours. Regulations were in draft dealing with the processes of tinning hardware. The whole china and earthenware trade regulations were about to be overhauled, and it was hoped they would effect a large reduction in the cases of lead poisoning. The draft of a new Order dealing with the fruit-preserving industry had been published. Should the new Order be criticised on the ground that it did not go far enough in regard to the hours of labour, it should be remembered that in the case of the fruit-preserving and fish-curing industries the powers of the Department were limited by the form in which statutory exemptions were extended to these industries, and that though the Secretary of State might impose conditions to qualify those exemptions ho could not

  977
  make conditions which nullified them. The fish-curing industry was being made the subject of a special inquiry with a view to deciding as to the best mode of revising the regulations. The inquiry would specially include the question of sanitation, which was one of great gravity. The chief inspector of factories would personally visit a number of these fish-curing factories before long, and when he reported, the Home Office hoped to have a scheme to deal with the whole situation. The medical officers' reports referred to by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean were exceedingly voluminous, and would need condensation to make them proper for publication, but such portions of them as could properly be published would, he hoped, be published with the Report of the inquiry. The Departmental Committee on Compensation for Industrial Diseases regretted that they could not recommend the scheduling of fibrosis of the lungs, although it was a disease which could be definitely traced to certain industries. He recognised from the beginning that the scheduling of this disease would meet with grave objection, not only from the employers, but also in the interests of the employed. The initial stages of the disease usually extended over several years, and in the early period it was indistinguishable from ordinary cough or bronchitis, and the result of scheduling it would be prejudicial to workmen, who might lose their employment on mere suspicion that they were developing the disease, the employers finding that they would be unable to insure them. This view was supported by the witness who attended on behalf of the Sheffield grinders, who urged them not to schedule the disease. Dr. Haldane took the same view, and said that to schedule the disease would be disastrous to the tin miners of Cornwall. Dr. Oliver, one of the greatest authorities on dangerous trades, took the same line, and said that on the whole it was not to the advantage of the workmen that this disease should be scheduled. With regard to the opinion of the hon. Member for Berwickshire that they ought to have scheduled poisoning by naphtha, on the ground that it was clearly an industrial disease, if the Committe had thought it was an industrial disease and that it incapacitated the worker from his work
  978
  they would have scheduled it, but they took a good deal of evidence and had come unanimously to the conclusion, after visiting a number of india-rubber factories where the naphtha poisoning was alleged to take place, that there was no industrial disease due to naphtha. The inference they had drawn from the medical evidence he had quoted was that the poisoning attributed to the naphtha was due to carbon bisulphide.
  *MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid that in cases of lead poisoning they had cases of chronic illness, and he himself had produced cases of almost exactly similar chronic illness from naphtha poisoning.
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid they could not find it. They took evidence, and Dr. Oliver said in reference to the question of naphtha poisoning in india-rubber works that, while there might be some inconvenience caused to some of the workers, there was no incapacity lasting for the week that was necessary to qualify for compensation, duo to this cause. There was very much more evidence to the same effect. He had dealt with it at some length because it was an important point, and if there was a naphtha disease, they would be deservedly open to censure if it were not scheduled under the Act; and if it could be shown that the disease existed, he had no doubt that the right hon Gentleman would add it to the schedule. The other points which had been mentioned would be carefully noted by the Department. As to accidents due to electricity, regulations were now being made which had taken a long time to prepare. The hon. Member for Leicester had raised two points—one a large one and the other a small one. The small one had reference to the omission of mileage statistics from the factory inspector's report. These had been omitted because they could draw no conclusion whatever from them. If the figures were small, it might be stated that they showed that the districts were well organised. If they were large, they might be held to prove how hard was the work,of the inspectors, and the large amount of inspection they did. In 1905 the mileage was 944,000 miles; in 1906 the figures showed a reduction to 935,000 miles—a very small decrease. The number of visits paid—which was of much

  979
  more importance—in the course of the year showed an increase from 372,000 to 382,000. The rest of the hon. Member for Leicester's speech was devoted to the point that the inspector's assistants had not got sufficiently large functions, and were not given the work to which their qualifications entitled them. As far as he understood the hon. Member, he advocated that the two branches of the service should be amalgamated more or less, and that the same functions should be given to all classes of factory inspectors. But he would point out that the work of factory inspection was very various and required various qualifications. The inspectors had to investigate difficult questions in safeguarding complicated machinery; they had to administer elaborate and detailed codes of special safety rules; they had to conduct cases in Court and examine and cross- examine witnesses; they had to write full reports on the condition of the various industries with which they had to deal, and they had to deal with scientific questions of humidity, temperature, and so forth. There was also a great deal of much simpler work, such as the inspection of workshops and other matters. It was held by the Home Office that it was not desirable to employ men at comparatively high salaries and of a high standard of education to do the simpler work of inspecting workshops and other places, while a class of men could be obtained with economy to the State at a lower salary—men of lower educational qualifications, but who could do this simpler work. The latter, however, would not be so well qualified to take cases into Court or deal with the higher branches of inspection. There were 140,000 workshops which urgently needed inspection, and if they took the inspectors' assistants from that work someone else would have to replace them, and they would have to get the more highly paid and more highly educated inspectors to do the simpler work. It might be asked why did not a non-commissioned officer do the work of a commissioned officer, or a second division clerk in the Civil Service the work of a first division; clerk. The assistant inspectors were able men, but in the view of the Department the work of the higher grade was more; suited to the men who were members of that higher grade. He much regretted to hear the hon. Member deride the edu-
  980
  cational standard by scoffing at questions on Shakespeare and examinations of that kind, and he apparently held the view that the qualification for these inspectorships should be technical and not educational.
  *MR. RAMSAY MACDONALD: My contention was that education should be technical and scientific, and not literary.
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: The hon. Member might say the same thing about Army examinations in subjects which have nothing to do with warfare.
  MR. RAMSAY MACDONALD: Your officers show the result.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid the same ridicule might be cast on the examination papers for entrance into the Home Civil Service or the Indian Civil Service. The questions asked often had little direct relation to the work which the successful candidates would be required to perform. The examinations of Civil servants in various subjects was to ascertain that the candidates were men of a high educational standard. He should have thought that the hon. Member himself, who in his own life showed the immense importance he attached to wide culture, would be the last to lower the educational standard of any branch of the Civil Service. In nominating for examinations they endeavoured to obtain, as a rule, a combination of educational and technical qualifications. In conclusion, he would just deal with two or three other points which had been raised by hon. Members. The hon. Member for Sunderland had complained that all the persons who applied for posts as inspectors of mines were not allowed to attend the certificate examinations. He did not think there was a hall large enough to hold all the candidates for inspectorships. at one time. It would appear, he often thought, that the constituents of hon. Members were divided into two classes— those who wanted to be factory inspectors and those wanted to be mine inspectors. It would be ridiculous to assemble all the scores of hundreds of candidates for mine inspectorships when perhaps there were only one or two vacancies to fill. The rule was to nominate three or four of the

  981
  candidates with the highest qualifications, when a vacancy was to be filled. In his own view it was not desirable to have merely qualifying examinations, and there ought to be competitive examinations for these posts. The question had also been raised as to the form of contract for clothing. He would take care that it was carefully looked into to see if it was possible in any way to improve it. The hon. Member for Marylebone had raised the question as to the charges imposed by the Home Office on omnibuses and hackney cabs. He would be only too glad to reduce, even to abolish, many of those charges, but it was purely a question of finance and of ways and means. When the Select Committee not long ago reported on the subject they recommended the abolition of the charge of £2, his right hon. friend carefully considered the question, but the condition of the Police Fund was such that it was already trembling on the verge of a deficit. It was purely a matter of balancing accounts, and the Police Fund could not afford to lose the amount which now went to the public expenses of the police in respect of cabs and omnibuses. He was exceedingly grateful to the Committee for their appreciation of the work done by the Department during the last twelve months, and he could assure the Committee that their activity in relation to the very important matters entrusted to their charge would continue.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he wished to express his hearty appreciation of the action of His Majesty in regard to the granting of medals for life-saving in mines. He thought it only right that some reward should be given to encourage that kind of gallantry. He noticed that the Home Secretary had stated that he intended shortly to introduce a measure dealing with the eight-hours question. Of course, he could not deal with that subject now, but he took it that the right hon. Gentleman was only going to introduce it this session in order that it might be proceeded with at a later date. With regard to the Report, he was sure they all regretted to see an increase in the number of accidents. He did not know whether the Home Secretary had formed any opinion as to whether that was due to the increased tendency to adopt mechanical power or to the fact that accidents were more
  982
  rapidly and regularly reported than in the past. It was quite possible that the Workmen's Compensation Act had something to do with the result. He regretted the increase, and felt certain that the Home Office would do all they could to render accidents as few as possible in the future. He noticed from the Factory Report that there had also been an increase in the number of industrial diseases. He should not have mentioned the subject but for the remarks of the hon. Member for Berwickshire, who seemed to think that the pains and penalties which would accrue in consequence of the Compensation Act would make the employers more careful. He had observed in other occupations that if people knew they were insured they wore not always so careful as they otherwise would be. [Cries of "No."] He desired like other hon. Members that there should be as few accidents as possible, and that every precaution should be taken by the Home Office to reduce the number. He would also like to know when the Home Office expected to receive the report of the Commission on the Metropolitan Police. That Commission had been sitting a very long time, and such a splendid body of men ought not to be kept in suspense. The right hon. Gentleman had paid a thoroughly well-deserved compliment to the able and most efficient and hard-working officials of the Department over which he presided. He also wished to offer his congratulations, because he was perfectly certain that no Department last year had harder work to perform than the Home Office. The number of inquiries taking place there, and the amount of legislation undertaken by that office, had thrown a great amount of work upon the officials, and he congratulated them upon the way they had got through the work and the excellence of the work they had done. He trusted that this year they would not have an autumn session, because, quite apart from the fatigue and inconvenience to hon. Members, his sympathies were with those officials in the Government Departments who would have an extra amount of work thrown upon them in addition to the ordinary administration of their office. It was quite impossible for a Minister properly to administer his Department if he had to be in the House of Commons for about ten months in the

  983
  year. With regard to the Berne Conference, the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean said that he had not dealt with that subject because it had been fully dealt with in the House of Lords. The debate in the other Chamber was, however, an exceedingly short one, because their Lordships were waiting to take up a bigger subject. One of the subjects considered at that Conference was the night work of women. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean thought that when the first Conference took place the Home Office were very much to blame for not giving a freer hand to their representatives. The Under-Secretary found at the second Conference that upon this subject it was desirable they should move cautiously. He should like to know whether any arrangement was come to at the second Conference with regard to the prohibition of white phosphorus and whether Japan had come into the Conference or not. They must have unanimity in the matter or they would have to leave it alone. He had always found that if they prohibited the use of white phosphorus in this country, they would inflict a great hardship upon manufacturers unless at the same time they prohibited its importation from abroad. He thought they were very wise not to proceed too rapidly in the matter. In the past they had succeeded in this country in dealing with this question by strict regulations as to ventilation, cleanliness, and the separation of the dangerous processes, and by an examination from time to time of the workers, and in that way they had practically succeeded in stamping out the disease. He thought that by carefully carrying out good regulations they would be able to secure the end which they all desired without prohibiting the use of white phosphorus. With regard to the night labour of women he was glad to notice that some arrangement had been arrived at. In reference to the question of laundries he would like to know whether the convent laundries were accepting voluntary inspection. He did not for a moment think that voluntary inspection was equal to compulsory inspection, but he was anxious to see some better system adopted. He took a great interest in this matter because when he was at the Home Office they were very anxious to
  984
  try the voluntary system of inspection pending fresh legislation, and he should like to know whether those religious and conventual houses where laundry work was carried on had submitted to any inspection and whether they were still willing to receive that inspection voluntarily. With regard to the administration of the Aliens Act he noticed that the statistics were furnished in an entirely different form, and were very much clearer. They could not, however, compare them with former years because they were drawn up on different lines from those issued by the Board of Trade in the old days. MR. Haldane-Porter's first Report showed that very great care had been taken in the compilation of these statistics, and he thought this would be the first of many Reports which would justify the appointment of so able an official. By the alteration which had been made in the number they had admitted many undesirables. He wished to refer to the question of the expulsion of aliens under Section 3, which dealt with persons convicted of offences for which a man was liable to be sentenced to imprisonment, without the option of a fine. No less than 418 recommendations were received by the Home Office, and some of those were still undergoing terms of imprisonment. Over 310 cases came up for the Home Secretary's decision, and expulsion orders in those cases had been issued. He was glad to notice that the operation of the Act was having some effect in reducing the alien prison population, and he hoped the Returns would show that in future years they would have a very small number of criminal aliens in the home prisons. The figures were very encouraging this year, but he had hopes that they would see a still further reduction in future years. There was one other question he would like to put to the Home Secretary, which, owing to lack of time the other night when the Home Office Vote was discussed, he was unable to ask. His question related to the Kynoch case. He wished to know in the first place what was the position of the Home Office, the War Office, and the Admiralty in the matter, and, in the second place, whether the 3.000 tons of cordite supplied by Messrs. Kynoch to the Army and Navy—
  And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private

  985
  Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceed-was postponed without Question put.

  MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL [LORDS]
  (BY ORDER).
  Order for the Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  *MR. MORTONsaid the time had more than arrived when sleeping accommodation should be provided for third-class passengers by all the railway companies where it was provided for first-class passengers. He was satisfied from personal observation that it would be quite possible to construct third-class sleeping carriages for the long journeys to the north in such a manner as to occupy only about half of the space now given to first-class passengers. If that could be done, the companies had no reason to complain of the request now being made, because such an arrangement would harmonise with the general conditions on which fares were fixed, the first-class fares being generally double the third-class fares. He represented a part of Scotland which was some 700 or 800 miles from London, and he was continually receiving complaints, especially from people who had to travel for business purposes, in regard to the want of third-class sleeping accommodation. He had spoken to railway managers and others on this subject, and the reply was, "Oh, these sleeping carriages, even the the first class, do not pay us." He was aware that the first-class passenger traffic, except the suburban traffic, did not pay, but it took the railway companies fifty years to find out that the first-class passengers were travelling at the expense of the third-class passengers. Experience had shown that the better the third-class passengers were treated the more traffic the railway companies had. He did not wish that Railway Bills should be thrown out because the companies did not provide third-class sleeping accommodation, but he hoped the companies would take this matter into serious consideration. He acknowledged that some assistance had already
  986
  been given by the Board of Trade, and he would be pleased if they would take some stronger step to compel the companies to do what was right to all classes. The railway companies should remember that the third-class passengers formed the bulk of the people who travelled, and that it was from them the profits were received. The Midland Company had in the past been in advance of other companies in introducing reforms, and he hoped that they would show a good example in this matter.
  *MR. SMEATONurged that the Board of Trade should put pressure on the railway companies to provide third-class sleeping carriages. The Department, in tendering advice to the railway companies, might suggest that they should consult the hon. Member for Sutherland shire who had made the subject of third-class sleeping accommodation a special study; in fact although it would be a loss to this House, he would advise the companies to engage the hon. Member as their professional adviser in the construction of the accommodation required; as he seemed to have a patent for the purpose in his pocket.
  MR. SEDDONsaid that if the railway companies did not soon yield on this point their Bills would be opposed. He thought the railway companies had treated the third class passengers very unfairly. They should have considered the subject more sympathetically than they had done. He was convinced that the the railway companies would be studying their own interest if they provided third-class sleeping carriages. The present conditions were particularly hard upon women and children who travelled at night. At stopping places the doors were opened and the draught which came in could not be in the interest of the health of the travellers.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (MR. KEARLEY, Devonport)said the Board of Trade always endeavoured to induce the railway companies to supply third-class sleeping accommodation, and personally he believed they would not find it a losing matter. Perhaps his hon. friend the

  987
  Member for Sutherland would introduce a Bill and take the sense of the House on the subject.
  *MR. MORTON: I have tried for years to get a place for a Bill in the ballot and have always failed.
  *MR. KEARLEY: I hope my hon. friend will persevere.
  *MR. MORTON: That is what I am doing.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed.
  *MR. BRUNNERmoved that it be an instruction to the Committee to omit Clause 30 and any other references to the abandonment of a portion of the Cromford Canal. He said there was an important question of principle involved in Clause 30. The Midland Railway Company proposed to obtain statutory power to close Butterley Tunnel and to isolate eight and a quarter miles of Cromford Canal, together with a largo reservoir. The canal was in Derbyshire, and if this part of it were isolated a certain number of factories, quarries, and mines would be cut off from the canal system of the country. It was most important also to bear in mind that the water from the Butterley reservoir would be cut off from the canals which joined lower down. The railway company proposed to construct certain conduits for the water. The Midland Railway Company acquired the Cromford Canal in 1870 by buying up the Matlock Railway Company, who were the owners of the canal, and in so doing they undertook a statutory obligation to keep the canal in repair. The tunnel had subsided by reason of coalmining operations underneath. The Midland Railway Company had power to buy the coal, and that power had been partly but not fully exercised. The Board of Trade sent down an inspector recently to report on the state of the canal, and also whether the traffic conditions justified the closing of the tunnel. He reported that the canal was not in a very good condition. The report also stated that the traffic conditions were such as to justify the company in endeavouring to get statutory
  988
  power to close the canal. He was sorry the terms of reference did not permit the inspector to inquire into the question how that state of things had come about. He would tell the House why the traffic had so much diminished. He asserted that the railway company had killed the traffic on the canal The tunnel was closed from 1889 to 1893, and it was also closed from 1900. It was perfectly obvious that no one would erect factories, or wharves, or build boats to be put on a canal where the conditions were so risky. Neither had the railway company adopted modern methods for the working of the canal. The figures in the Board of Trade inspector's report showed how the traffic on the canal had been killed since it came into possession of the railway company. For each of the three years previous to 1870 the average tonnage was 158,000 tons, while for the last three years it was only 43,000 tons. The House would want to know why the railway company had been permitted to keep the tunnel closed since 1900. It would be obvious to the House that the small trader could not fight the great railway companies, and further, the railway company had carried at low rates for the traders and done carting free. He had read the Bill and he did not see any proposal to continue to cart the traders goods free, The question of the water was a most important one. The railway company had no property in the water of the canal; the water used to flow through the tunnel, and it was vital to the existence of the Erewash and Nottingham Canals which joined it at the east. It was proposed by the Bill to construct conduits, but he was informed by the people who wanted the water that the proposal was utterly inadequate. The Railway Company in addition used for their own purposes and sold the water which ought to go down the canal. The railway company simply first killed the traffic and then neglected the ordinary repairs, so that the condition went from bad to worse; they were very astute in the matter. Ho should have done all this if he had been the manager of the railway company, but he did not think the House ought to buck him up in his conduct. Was the railway company to be permitted to allow this tunnel to remain in its present condition simply because it would cost a lot of money to put it right? The company, having

  989
  bought the Matlock Railway and the Cromford Canal, ought not to be allowed to take all the profit, out of the railway without having any of the liabilities with regard to the canal. There was another important consideration. At the present time there was a Royal Commission sitting on the question of the canals and waterways of the country, and in view of that fact he thought the conduct of the company was little short of impudent. The canal was not important in itself, but it was an important feeder, and reached a part of the country that was well situated for constructing reservoirs. If it were closed important gathering grounds for water would be cut off. For those reasons he hoped the House would pass the instruction which stood in his name, and which he begged to move.
  *MR. YOXALLseconded. He said it was impossible to consider the general question of waterways without being convinced that for some cause or other water traffic and canal business had been skilfully encouraged abroad and skilfully and scientifically discouraged and almost killed here. There was no secret about the cause and history of it. Ostensibly with the idea of running canal barges as adjuncts to trucks on railways, but really with the intention of eventually closing canals and removing from railway trucks the competition of canal barges, canals had been acquired by railway companies in a most daring manner. Railway companies in the past had come before the country and assented to the upkeep of the canals, and in this case the bargain was that the railway company should be allowed to buy the length of private railway and the canal if they kept the canal and the works of the canal in good working order and condition. They were to preserve the supply of water and keep the canal open to all traffic and promote the proper interests of traffic along the canal which was the central link in the canal system of the country. Owing to the stoppage in the tunnel, the coal traffic and the traffic of other canals had been adversely affected. The company thus, in allowing their own property to be damaged, had seriously damaged other people. He was there on behalf of the Nottingham Corporation to second the Motion chat it should be an instruction to
  990
  the Committee to delete from the Bill the clause dealing with the Cromford Canal. The Midland Railway Company were putting up a mere pretext to abandon it. The opponents did not want to damage the prospects of this Bill, but he trusted that that House would wait until they had the report of the Royal Commission on Canals and Waterways before passing this clause, so that they could see whether that body was in favour of keeping open or closing the canal. If that course were adopted the Midland Railway Company could come to the House with a Bill later to insert in their statutes this clause which it was now proposed to delete.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That it be an instruction to the Committee to omit Clause 30 and any other references to the abandonment of a portion of the Cromford Canal."— (Mr. Brunner.)
  *SIR E. BOYLEappealed to the House to allow the Bill to go forward so that it could go upstairs and be decided on its merits. If anything was done to-stop the Bill here the rights of the case would never be known. One hon. Member had said that the canal was subsiding owing to the coal having been extracted, and suggested that the railway company should buy the coal themselves, which according to the first speaker had already been consumed. The company's proposals were carefully explained to the Royal Commission on Canals and Waterways, and that Commission decided to leave the-matter to the Board of Trade, and the latter had held an inquiry, and generally concurred in the application now made. In 1890 part of the tunnel fell in and it took four years to repair it; but notwithstanding the repairs, and that the greatest precautions were taken, in 1894 the tunnel fell in again. He did not think under those circumstances that this was a matter upon which any company should be compelled to lay out any great sum of money. The canal would cost. £250,000, properly to rebuild and repair and was not worth the trouble and expense. Although there were nine petitions against the Bill in the Upper House, and after a full inquiry the House of Lords passed it. He hoped the hon. Member would not persist in stopping

  991
  an inquiry, and he for one should vote against any proposal to do so.
  SIR MAURICE LEVY (Leicestershire, Loughborough)hoped the instruction would be carried. The hon. Member who had just sat down had said that it was very difficult to put this canal into proper working order, and that it took four years to repair when the tunnel fell in in 1890, but he omitted to state that the cost was less than £7,500. It took four years because the company were unwilling to carry out their statutory obligations; now, because the canal was not a financial success they asked to be relieved of their obligations altogether. The report of the committee showed that the railway company had done everything to discourage the canal traffic. When they took over the canal the traffic was 140,000 tons per annum, and it was now only 30,000 to 40,000 tons. When the company took over the canal statutory obligations were imposed upon them to keep sufficient water in the canal to maintain it in a navigable condition. This they had not done, and hence traffic was diverted from the canals. The borough of Loughborough had for years sent the residuals from their gasworks by canal, and if the Cromford Tunnel were closed and the railway company absolved from keeping the canal open for traffic, it would cost the ratepayers of Loughborough £100 a year for carting the residuals from their gas works.
  *MR. CROSSLEYthought it would be a dangerous precedent if Parliament allowed this railway to get out of its engagements in the manner proposed. Parliament made a great mistake when it allowed the railways to buy up and control so many canals. They controlled nearly one-third of the canal system of the country, and their control was very much to the disadvantage of the canals. This company was bound to maintain this canal, and why it should be allowed to get out of that obligation he did not know. It had neglected its duty, and he thought it had done so wilfully. Far worse expenditure had taken place in regard to other canals, where there was a subsidence of thirty feet, but still they had been built up. If they allowed this canal to be closed and the water supply cut off, they would soon have the Great Northern
  992
  Railway wanting to close the Nottingham Canal, and instead of extending our canal system as we ought, we should find it was being curtailed. If this canal was allowed to be cut in two in the way proposed the millowners and quarry-owners would be left at the mercy of the railway company. In one case it had already so operated that a quarry-owner had lost a contract for the supply of stone owing to the high rates charged by the railway company, with the result that the order for the stone went to Norway. It was to the advantage of the railway companies to prevent canal traffic going on in order to get that traffic on to their own lines. Canal traffic was far cheaper and of great advantage to the country, and anyone conversant with the canal system on the Continent would never consent to any further cutting down of the canal system in this country. It seemed to him a bold stroke on the part of the Midland Railway Company to appeal to Parliament to close a canal while the Royal Commission on Canals and Waterways was inquiring into the advisability of reconstruction and extension. He hoped the House would delete Clause 30.
  *MR. MORTONsaid that no attempt had been made to prevent this Bill from going upstairs, hon. Members having very wisely decided to fight the question on one clause and allow the remainder of the Bill to go up in any case. There was a great principle involved in the question of the waterways and canals of this country, and the House ought to protest now against their being destroyed although they had not done so in the past. Ever since 1851 the policy of the railways had been to obtain possession of and to close the canals of the country and to prevent competition. Goods could be carried much more cheaply by water than by any other method, although railways could carry them faster, and it ought to be the policy of the House to keep these waterways open for the use and benefit of the trade and the people. He had expected to hear someone who represented the railway company state what the company was prepared to do for the public in return for Parliament allowing them to get out of this obligation, but no offer whatever had been made, although the company wished to be relieved of a great expenditure which

  993
  they undertook for a concession they got from Parliament. He trusted under the circumstances that the House would eliminate the clause.
  *MR. KEARLEYsaid the question before the House was whether the Midland Railway Company should be compelled to maintain this canal from end to end. At about the middle of the canal there was a tunnel a mile and three-quarters in length, and owing to a subsidence it had fallen in, and at this point the traffic was absolutely blocked. In other places the water in the canal was no longer at its ordinary level. It was not denied by the company that they were under statutory obligations to maintain the canal and keep it open for navigation during its entire length. But at intervals since 1889 the canal at this part had been closed owing to the subsidences which had taken place, and since 1900 the tunnel had been entirely closed. Apart from this, the company had showed no particular anxiety to keep the other portions of the canal open for navigation; they had neglected to keep up their reservoirs: and had allowed one to fall to one-third of its natural capacity. In this connection repeated complaints had been made to the Board of Trade, pointing out the serious manner in which trade was handicapped, and the Board of Trade took advantage of certain powers they possessed. Under the Railway and Canal Traffic Act they appointed Sir William Matthews to make an investigation, and had received a Report from him that had been presented to the House. He thought this question ought to be very carefully considered, and the Board of Trade had given it the most careful consideration. They could not ignore the fact that there was a most important Royal Commission sitting at the present moment to inquire into the question of waterways and canals which ran between them. It so happened that this canal constituted a very important part of the canal system of the country, and though only fifteen miles in length, it was a feeder to a system which ran to Nottingham, Derby, and the Humber. Having regard to all these considerations, the Board of Trade did not propose to offer any objection to the acceptance of this instruction.
  994
  Question put, and agreed to and ordered accordingly.
  Ordered, That, in the ease of the Midland Railway Bill [Lords], Standing Orders 82, 211, 236, and 237 be suspended, and that the Committee of Selection have leave to appoint the Committee on the Bill to sit and proceed upon Wednesday next. —(The Chairman-of Ways and Means.)

SUPPLY.

  (CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES.)
  Postponed Proceeding on Question; "That a sum, not exceeding £128,735, be granted to His Majesty, to complete-the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1908, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's. Secretary of State of the Home Department and Subordinate Offices, resumed."
  (MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid.) in the Chair.)
  *MR. SMEATONsaid there was a Motion in his name for the reduction of the Secretary of State's-salary, his object being simply to draw his attention to the volume of evidence given before the Royal Commission on vivisection. That volume contained revelations of the most startling kind, and it was perfectly clear that the law of 1876. was habitually disobeyed, and in some cases flagrantly violated; in the operations of vivisection the motives of humanity seemed to be very little realised and hardly even to influence the operators. As the right hon. Gentleman was aware, a very large body of opinion was being directed to this subject, not only in this country, but also abroad—in the United States and in Continental countries. There were hundreds of thousands of His Majesty's subjects, of both sexes, —largely of the gentler sex—who were deeply moved by the disclosures now before the Royal Commission. Opinion was growing that there must be a great deal more humanity shown in vivisection operations than was at present manifested.

  995
  The opinion was also held that if the Government could not control these vivisection operations efficiently and thoroughly they had far better abolish vivisection altogether. In 1905, although there were actually 38,000 experiments, only twenty-three of these were inspected at a cost of 850 guineas to the State. Of these 38,000 experiments, 2,506 were vivisection properly so-called; the rest were probably inoculations. In the past three years, out of 89,519 operations, only ninety-three were inspected, at a cost of 2,581 guineas. He thought that was a flagrant waste of public money. There were two inspectors who received, one 500 guineas and the other 350 guineas. These gentlemen were not whole-time officers, but they received whole-time fees. They got the equivalent of the salaries of many professional men, and he was obliged to conclude that not only was there a waste of public money for which the Home Office was responsible, but the inspectors were inefficient and the inspections absurdly few. In fact the whole organisation of inspection was a farce—a ridiculous farce; and for very shame, if for no other reason, reform— and immediate reform—was urgent. Another extraordinary disclosure of the volume was that the Home Office took no steps whatever to detect or investigate cases of unlicensed vivisection. The law laid down that inspectors were from time to time to visit registered places where vivisection was carried on, and it laid down a set of conditions for the legal conduct of these experiments which the inspectors were supposed to watch constantly. It was perfectly plain that if the Home Office gave no instructions to its inspectors to detect and inquire into cases of unlicensed vivisection, unlicensed operations would go on at a rate which those who had spoken to him on the subject thought was positively alarming. He found in the same year, 1905, there were sixty contraventions of the Act, of which one only was the result of official investigation and detection, and fifty-nine wore due to the confessions of the experimenters themselves. If there were fifty-nine experimenters who confessed that they had contravened the law, how many hundreds, possibly thousands, were there who did not confess? Although the Commissioners in 1876 recommended that there should be inquiry into the
  996
  humanity with which these experiments were conducted by the operators, yet no such inquiry had been made. And in this respect he would like to quote a passage from a letter by Professor Huxley, who was a member of the Commission in 1875. In his letter to Darwin Professor Huxley called himself "the counsel for science;" that was to say that he was anxious that these vivisection experiments should always have scientific results. He wrote:—
  "I have felt it ray duty to act as counsel for science, and was well satisfied with the way things were going. But on Thursday, when I was absent at the Council of the Royal Society, Mr. Klein was examined, and, if what I hear is a correct account of the evidence he gave, I may as well throw up my brief. I am told that he most openly professed the most entire indifference to animal suffering, and said he only gave animals anætheties to keep them quiet. I declare that I did not know that a man lived who was such an unmitigated cynical brute as to profess and act upon such principles, and I would willingly agree to any law which would send him to the treadmill."
  That was the opinion of a great scientist who would have gone a great length to forward the interests of scientific research; and yet that was what, in his hot indignation, he said, and how he cursed the cruelty which which the so-called scientific research caused to the dumb creatures who minister so greatly to our pleasure, happiness, and comfort At the present time there were no means of ascertaining whether a candidate for a licence was a man likely to show humanity in his operations. Questions and answers in the Report showed that the inspectors depended wholly on the good faith of the licensee that the conditions of the Act were observed. Then again, it was reported that the use of the drug called curari was not uncommon. This curari was absolutely prohibited by Clause 4 of the Act. The effect of curari was to paralyse the motor nerves and the muscular action while the subject was at the same time under the influence of the anæsthetic; when the influence of the anæsthetic was exhausted the effect of the curari still continued, and the unfortunate animal was unable to move a muscle or make a struggle to show the pain it was in. Then again, another violation of the law was that anæsthetics were not uncommonly applied, not by the operator himself, but by what he called his laboratory boy—a person who knew

  997
  nothing whatever about anæsthetics, had no responsibility whatever, but simply administered the anæsthetic for as long as ho thought fit, while the operator himself was absolutely paying no attention to the condition of the animal. Then, again, there was evidence of the probable frequency of illegal vivisections. He found that the Home Secretary in 1901 admitted in June or July that Messrs. Burroughs and Wellcome held no licence, although they were carrying on vivisection. Notwithstanding this offence against the law, the Homo Secretary granted them a licence in September of the same year. That seemed to him a very gross violation of the law. These people were carrying on illegal vivisection and breaking the law, and not only were they not prosecuted, but they were actually granted two licences. He thought that was a condition of affairs which warranted very severe condemnation. Another point was that according to the Act of 1876 the licences were to be signed by certain distinguished professional bodies, and it was especially laid down that if the candidate himself belonged to one of those bodies, he must not sign his own certificate. He found that a very eminent professional man, Professor Starling, was reported to have actually signed his own certificate under which his licence was granted. The House had been listening for several hours to the importance of inspection of factories and workshops in order to prevent anything like an approach to hardship to men and women workers; and there was not one man in the House who was not in sympathy with the appeals which had been made. But surely the dumb creatures who depended upon us and who were so helpful to us merited some consideration at their hands at least to prevent positive cruelty and torture at the whim of so-called scientific operations? What a melancholy contrast between the diligent and strenuous inspection of factories and the miserable sham inspections of the shambles devoted to vivisection !He suggested that the inspectors should be largely increased in number, and the Home Office put in a position to judge whether they had conducted their inspections efficiently. There ought, too, to be high fees charged for licences, which should go towards the remuneration in part of the increased body of inspectors.
  998
  He would be out of order in suggesting changes in legislation. But he urged on the right hon. Gentleman the need of vigilance and of drastic reform in the direction of inspection, and of checking of the present barefaced neglect of the law. He hoped much would come of the Report of the Commission; and meantime the country would watch the operations of vivisection with a jealous eye.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he wished to dissociate himself from the remarks of the hon. Member with regard to the inhumanity of the administration of the Vivisection Act. His experience was that the administration of that Act and the conduct of the inspectors was most humane. Ho was certain there was nothing like undue cruelty.
  MR. SMEATONsaid he had never imputed to the inspectors that they condoned cruelty, but that they did not take the opportunity of examining the cases.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid in that respect then he had misunderstood the hon. Member. But the hon. Member had said that sufficient care was not taken in granting licences to members of the profession.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid that some hon. Members on that side agreed with the hon. Member opposite. They did not complain for a moment of the action of the inspectors, but they felt very strongly that they were insufficient in number.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid there had been made against those who carried on this scientific work a great many charges which could not be justified on examination. In his opinion due care was taken to see that licences were not scattered broadcast, but were granted only to those who were authoritatively recommended. Referring to the Aliens Act, he expressed his satisfaction at the deportation under that Act of foreign criminals who had been convicted in this country. The consequent decrease in the number of such prisoners was very marked. In 1905 he remembered that the alien prison population

  999
  was increasing and it increased in a greater ratio than other prisoners. In 1906, in the English prisons, whilst the total of British prisoners fell by 6.32 per cent., the aliens total fell by 16.85 per cent.; that was, they fell from 4,098 to 3,399, leaving the total lower than at any other time since 1899. Those figures were very satisfactory. He asked whether any circular had been sent to quarter sessions and other courts calling attention to the clauses of the Act. As the Home Office had no power to deport a criminal alien without a certificate from the court, it was essential that courts of quarter sessions should be informed of their responsibilities under the Aliens Act. He had two questions to put in reference to the settlement of the dispute between Messrs. Kynoch and the Home Office. Had Messrs. Kynoch given up their contention that the use of mercuric chloride was not in contravention of the terms of their licence; and had they given an assurance to abide by the construction put on the terms of their licence by the Home Office? Did the agreement come to with the Home Office also bind the Admiralty and War Office and prevent them from taking action against Messrs. Kynoch with respect to the ammunition they had supplied to the Army and Navy?
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he gladly responded to the appeal made to him by the right hon. Gentleman. He did not know whether Messrs. Kynoch had given up their view that the use of mercuric chloride was not in contravention of the law, but they had given the Home Office the assurance that they would abide by the decision of the court of quarter sessions and discontinue the use of this unauthorised ingredient, and that they would strictly observe the terms of their licences. If the firm has given the Home Office that assurance in a bona fide manner—and he was bound to say he thought they had—it did not matter to the Home Office if they reserved a pious opinion as to whether or not their action was or was not against the law. The object of the Home Office was to get sufficient protection for the public, and they felt certain they had secured that object. His answer to the other question of the right hon. Gentleman was in the negative. The Home Office dealt with Messrs. Kynoch only so far as Home
  1000
  Office questions were concerned, and the War Office and Admiralty could deal with the firm in their own relations as they thought fit. In answer to other questions, he said that in December, 1905, a circular explaining the expulsion clauses of the Aliens Act had been sent to the courts of quarter sessions, and a further circular on the same subject had recently been sent to police authorities. It was not intended to proceed with the Eight Hours Bill this session after the measure had been introduced for the consideration of the country. He hoped the Report of the Metropolitan Police Commission would soon be issued. He agreed that it was most undesirable that its publication should be further delayed. A question had been asked as to the expulsion orders under the Aliens Act. That part of the Act had been administered with good results. He was glad to believe that the expulsions which had been already effected had produced a very considerable improvement, more particularly in the very worst class of disorderly houses in the metropolis. He considered that part of the Act a valuable provision of the law, and he would do his best to make it still more useful in its application. He had been asked a question in regard to the Borne Convention on the use of yellow phosphorus. It was not true to say that this country was isolated in its position. Japan, Norway, Sweden, Austria-Hungary, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal took up the same position. The question raised by the hon. Member for Stirlingshire was one of great importance and interest, but it was also one of an extremely complicated nature. He did not hesitate to admit that the administration of the law relating to vivisection had given him a great deal of difficulty. He was quite conscious that, not being a surgeon, physician, or physiologist, he could not penetrate into the mysteries of these things. All he could do, as all his predecessors had done, was to exercise such common sense as he possessed in the administration of the law, and he would say that he and those associated with him had worked the law to the best of their ability. He agreed with his right hon. friend in his protest against any thought being entertained that either the inspectors or any of those concerned in the administration of the law were in the least degree wanting in humanity, or that they were more deficient in humanity

  1001
  than any of those who thought it their duty to attack the law and those whose duty it was to administer it. Although he had great sympathy with the views of the hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House who were opposed to vivisection, he honestly felt that this was a matter in which sentiment had to be kept with considerable strictness within the bounds of reason.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid he did that in all cases.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid he had been aware for a long time of the interest the hon. Baronet took in dumb animals. As to the use of curari he had to say that it was never used by itself. It was sometimes used, but it was always accompanied by an anæsthetic. His hon. friend had stated that Professor Starling had signed his own licence. That was a statement which might be misinterpreted by the Committee. Under the law a licence had to be signed by a professor of physiology, and by a member of the College of Physicians and Surgeons. Professor Starling was a professor of physiology, and the signing of his own licence relieved him of the necessity of getting the signature of another professor of physiology. He had not hoard of the particular ease, but he imagined that that was the instance to which his hon. friend alluded. He would suggest to his hon. friend that it was impossible to carry this matter further on the present occasion. This was a matter of very great importance and difficulty, and for that reason he was instrumental in advising His Majesty to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into it. Until the questions raised by the hon. Member for Stirlingshire had been thoroughly considered and the Report of the Royal Commission received, he could not take any action except that of administering as well as he could the law as he found it. His right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean had said that there had been retrogression in the administration of the law in regard to lead poisoning.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he did not use the word retrogression in connection with the administration of the law by the Home Office.
  *MR GLADSTONE,admitting that that was so, said he wished to state in clear and distinct terms that, as a matter of fact, there had been no alteration in the position of the Home Office during the last ten years in regard to this question. They used every effort to discourage the use of lead, and in those cases where they could not prohibit its use, and where its use was inevitable, or essential, they discouraged the use of dangerous forms of it. He assured his right hon. friend that there would be no change at all. The right hon. Gentleman had alluded to a speech attributed to one of his respected colleagues at the Home Office, to whom he paid a proper tribute for his public spirit. He had had communications with Mr. Cunynghame, and he understood that the report of that speech was not a shorthand one, and was not in fact accurate. A corrected report was not sent by Mr. Cunynghame.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE:said the Journal of the Society of Arts gave opportunities for correction, and, as the subject was a dangerous one, he assumed that the report was corrected.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that the matter was probably explained by the fact that Mr. Cunynghame had had to go away for his health. Mr. Cunynghame had asked him to express his regret that the misunderstanding had arisen. Mr. Cunynghame's personal attitude was that he yielded to no one in the earnest desire that a substitute for lead could be found. He (Mr. Cunynghame) said this most emphatically, and in support of it wished to add that he had procured and read everything that had been written about leadless glazes in English, French, German, or Italian, and it was only with the greatest regret that he feared that the abolition of load throughout English pottery was impracticable. He (Mr. Gladstone) could assure the right hon. Gentleman, so far as the Home Office was concerned, that not only would there be no retrogression, but that they would do everything in their power to stem the apparent increase in the number of cases of lead poisoning and so prevent what was undoubtedly a great evil. The hon. Member for Monmouth had referred to the question of life-saving apparatus in

  1003
  mines. They believed that it was necessary to proceed cautiously in the matter. Perhaps the Committee were not aware that after the Courrières disaster some German life-saving apparatus was bought and some men went down the mine. Unfortunately something went wrong and the man who had the apparatus lost his life and two who had not any apparatus were uninjured. It was quite clear, therefore, that science was still somewhat at fault; and the Royal Commission had found that it was impossible to say at the present moment that any particular apparatus was so above suspicion and so much better than any other that they could advise the Government to recommend its use. The hon. Member for Clitheroe had devoted most of his speech to the question of time - cribbing. A magistrate could take his own action as to whether or not he would fine in every case, but he agreed that a small fine of £10 was not a deterrent to time-cribbing on the part of a great company. The hon. Member referred had to one case where an inspector apparently discouraged the help of the police. He would inquire into that. He thought it would be most unfortunate if the co-operation of the police was discouraged in any way. He was sorry that the hon. Member for Leicester had made a remark which seemed to cast some aspersion upon Dr. Whitelegge. He did not think the hon. Member could have meant it. The medical experience of Dr. Whitelegge had been of inestimable advantage to the industrial population of the country and of immense use to him in his administration of the Factory Department. He had the fullest trust and belief in Dr. Whitelegge's capacity, and he was glad on this occasion to make an acknowledgment of the public service which he had rendered. He believed the educational value of the examination which was now enforced was very great indeed and enabled them to secure the services of competent men to discharge the difficult duties imposed upon them under the Factory and Workshops Act. The hon. Member for Leicester had denounced the organisation of the Factory Department of the Home Office, and pressed him to say that a Select Committee would be appointed to inquire into it. He would say frankly and fairly that he would have nothing to do with the appoint-
  1004
  ment of a Select Committee. If he thought it necessary he would be a party to its appointment at once, but he did not. Moreover, the Factory Department was at present working at full stretch, and he would ask the hon. Member to consider the effect the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry would have at the present time. It would dishearten and disorganise the whole of the Department and would stop the good work going on. It would be disastrous in its effect, and he did not believe it would produce any good results. He could not therefore in any sense assent to his hon. friend's proposal. The appointment of a Royal Commission with regard to mines offered no parallel, because there was no Department on Mines at the Home Office and the question had to be considered in relation to the inspectorate. He thought that the Commission might give some valuable suggestions with regard to the inspectorate; and he preferred to leave. the whole question till the Royal Commission had reported. The Factory Department had, however, not only been growing for years, but it had been growing in strength and efficiency from year to year, and he was not going to put a stop to that growth and development. On the contrary, he would encourage it by every means in his power and not discourage and disorganise the Department by appointing a Select Committee to inquire into its work.
  *MR. F. E. SMITHsaid that he wished to direct attention to an entirely different subject; but one which had been repeatedly discussed by Question and answer across the floor of the House. He referred, as the Committee was probably aware, to what had become known as the Edalji case. If one were to attempt to open the whole of the case adequately, it would certainly take at least two days to do it; and he should devote himself, not to that object, but to the modest object of convincing the Committee that there was a prima facie, case that even in regard to the reparation which the Home Office had recently made there had been a very grave miscarriage of justice on the findings of the Committee which the right hon. Gentleman had himself appointed. It was in no sense a Party question, for if there was any reflection at all upon the Home Office that reflection, at least to.

  1005
  some extent, attached to the office in the clays when it was presided over by his right hon. friend. He mentioned this to show that there was no hope and no intention of making Party capital out of the question. The only charge against the Home Office, as an office, lay in the practice which had been adopted for many years of not interfering with sentences unless some fresh evidence presented itself. That being their principle, it was clear that the Home Office under the presidency neither of the right hon. Gentleman nor of his predecessor could give very great relief in such a case as the Edalji case. When the Criminal Appeal Bill was under discussion, the right hon. Gentleman spoke with contempt of newspaper commissioners.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Not with contempt.
  *MR. F. E. SMITHsaid he gathered that that was the tenor of the right hon. Gentleman's observations. The only observation he had to make with regard to that was that the reparation which had already been made—first, the admission that Edalji was entitled to have a grossly excessive sentence of seven years reduced to three years, and, secondly, that there existed adequate reasons for giving him a free pardon—had been brought about by the agitation which took place in the newspaper Press, and in which Mr. Labouchere and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle were conspicuous and disinterested figures. He had no right whatever to claim any of the credit of the Edalji incident, and of the reduction of the sentence which his right hon. friend thought was just. The credit belonged to Mr. Labouchere and Sir Arthur Doyle, and he had no share in it. Passing from the newspaper commissioners let him ask the House to consider what were the circumstances under which the only charge which still survived—the charge of having written certain anonymous letters—first came to be made. The Rev. S. Edalji, who twenty-seven years ago became vicar of Great; Wyrley, and who was the father of Mr. George Edalji, was a Parsee by origin occupying the anomalous position of a clergyman in the Church of England, and was not likely to be very popular among a provincial community. The Rev. S. Edalji, Mrs. Edalji, and Miss Edalji were witnesses against whose
  1006
  credibility no one had ever made any allegation. The family however, for a considerable number of years past had bitter, powerful, and rancorous enemies in the parish in which they lived. The material circumstances in connection with these anonymous letters was that from 1892 to 1896 a series of anonymous letters was addressed to Mr. Edalji, the father, letters which were couched in an extraordinary vein and which presented many points of analogy to the letters of a later date of which the right hon. Gentleman still said that Edalji was the author. It was impossible to form a judgment on the later anonymous letters unless they formed a judgment on the letters which preceded them. The first step in fact which the Committee must grasp was that the first letters bore great marks of resemblance to the later ones, and on the face of them were the work of a man determined to injure the younger Edalji, and disclosing every symptom of a disordered mind. The first letters were in the handwriting of an adult, and were written when George Edalji was sixteen or seventeen years of age. They were written to the father. One of them read as follows—
  "My dear Shaparje,
  "I have great pleasure in informing you that it is now our intention to renew the persecution of the Vicar of Great Wyrley… revenge, revenge on you.… I have to-day potted in your name postcards of a most hellish nature… you are sure to be arrested.
  Yours in Satan."
  On 17th March the following letter was received—
  "I swear by God that I will murder George Edalji and F. B. soon; the only thing I care about in this world is revenge, revenge, sweet revenge, then I shall be happy, yes happy, in hell, in hell, in hell… Now I seldom bet, but I will bet this time that your kid and F. B. will before the end of this year be either in the graveyard or disgraced for life. … I do not think Hell is such a bad place after all and I long, yes I long, to be there rolling in the flames of Hell-fire that shall never be quenched… never, never, never. I know that I am lost, oh, oh, oh, Christ, Christ, Christ help me! Oh, I am lost, God have mercy, Christ help. Every day, every hour, my hatred is growing against George Edalji and F. B. If I could get into an empty railway compartment with them I would do for them both."
  He did not think anyone acquainted with the psychology of crime would say that

  1007
  the author of those letters was George Edalji aged seventeen and of unimpeached sanity. About this time advertisements of a scurrilous character were inserted in the papers at some slight expense which were extremely annoying to the Rev. Mr. Edalji. From 1892 to 1896 this first batch of anonymous letters continued and then nothing was received from 1896 to 1903. There was complete silence in the whole matter. The man who wrote them might have been in gaol or a lunatic asylum or have changed his work. He asked the Committee to form a picture of what George Edalji was in 1903. In the first place, he was aged twenty-eight years, a man of studious habits, who had left the Rugeley grammar school with a good character from every teacher, and proceeded to the Mason College at Birmingham to study law, which college he left without a single testimonial which was not a good testimonial. He gained prizes and scholarships, and at the ago of twenty-eight he produced a book upon railway law which bore every evidence both of industry and capacity. No charge whatever had been brought against him; on the contrary, he had received testimonials as to moral character from every man who had had opportunities of judging him from day to day observation. The only circumstance which had been or could be alleged against him was that at the age of twenty-eight he was in pecuniary difficulties—a not uncommon circumstance in the case of men of his position in life qualifying for an expensive profession. In February, 1903, horrible cattle-maiming began in the neighbourhood in which he resided. Then commenced a second list of anonymous letters, addressed this time to the police. The suggested authorship of the second batch of anonymous letters was the only justification for the stigma which the right hon. Gentleman continued to impose on this unfortunate man. [Some cries of "Oh."] The right hon. Gentleman's own Committee had found that at the time these outrages took place the police in the district were being universally discredited because of their failure to discover the offender. The Committee said—
  "The police were extremely anxious to bring the offender to justice, having been baffled on every side."
  1008
  Let hon. Members read the first letter upon which the right hon. Gentleman said he would not clear the character of this man, or give him compensation, because he thought some tribunal might find that Edalji had written these letters. The first letter was written to the police in March, 1903. It ran—
  "I know all about horses and beasts, and how to catch them best. I had never done none before till these two horses near the line at Wyrley… I caught them both lying down at ten to three and they roused up and I caught them each under the belly, but they didn't spurt much blood… I know all the Edaljis. It is not true we always do it when moon young, and the one Edalji killed on 11th April was full moon night."
  The second letter, on which the expert, Mr. Gurrin, expressed his opinion, which this competent lawyer was supposed to have written to the police, began—
  "Edalji is going to Bruin on Sunday night to see the Captain near Northfield about how its to be carried on with so many detectives about, and I believe they arc going to do some cows in the day time. You bloated blackguard, I will shoot you with father's gun through your thick head if you come my way.' I don't remember writing this letter, but I may have."
  No tribunal up to the present time had ever found that he had written those letters. How could the writing of such a letter as the second be imputed to a sane man? He challenged the right hon. Gentleman to state what could he the motive. The third letter was sent to a boy in the village and said—
  "Colonel Bridgeman has granted a warrant to arrest you for killing cattle. There is a warrant for George Edalji and F. W, I have warned Edalji… told him what to do to save yourselves."
  If the case were founded on those two letters it was complete against the hypothesis on which the right hon. Gentleman had chosen to base himself. But there was a postcard also, and would it be believed that the expert Gurrin committed himself to the view that Edalji was not only the author of those three letters, but also of this postcard, which was addressed to Edalji himself, at the solicitor's office where he worked, and where everyone could read it? It was couched in terms so foul and shameful that he should not be tolerated if he read them; he would only say that it charged Edalji with having committed acts of immorality

  1009
  with a lady justly and universally respected in the neighbourhood. They were asked to believe that such a thing could be done by a man to whom insanity had never been imputed. It was suggested that the authorship of these anonymous letters was brought home to Edalji at the trial. He was careful to speak with the greatest possible respect of the deputy-chairman who presided at the trial, yet the right hon. Gentleman's own Committee had pointed out that this Edalji case was one of very great inherent difficulty. This trial was before a lay bench presided over, not by the ordinary chairman, but by the deputy-chairman, assisted by no legal advice to guide him through the maze of these difficulties, with no clerk even sitting there, but with the occasional assistance of a member of the junior bar, who was not, able to remain in Court during the whole of the hearing of these most difficult and intricate charges. The trial of Edalji was most unsatisfactory. There were two indictments, one for killing a pony, and the second was as to the authorship of the letters. And here he would say at once that if the charge had been tried by the jury on the second issue the case he was submitting would have been incomparably weaker; in fact the prosecution decided to abandon the second of these charges, or at any rate did not proceed upon it, and confined themselves to the charge of wounding. It was a charge of wounding without any specific issue being left to the jury, and they were asked by the right hon. Gentleman's Committee to infer that the jury thought that Edalji had written these letters. He knew that no consideration would influence this Committee so much as the disquieting possibility that this man after all might be completely innocent of the horrible offence with which he was charged. He did not argue that, he had too much experience of criminal cases to insult the intelligence of the Committee by attempting within the space of an hour to treat a case the trial of which occupied two or three days. He would confront the right hon. Gentleman with one most
  1010
  sinister and disquieting passage from the Report of his Committee—
  "The police carried out their investigations, not for the purpose of finding out who was the guilty party, but for the purpose of finding out evidence against Edalji."
  Those who had conducted prosecutions on police evidence knew the appalling risks which arose where the police approached a case with a preconceived conviction of the guilt of the accused, and there was no one who had ever practised at the Criminal liar to whom the preliminary finding reached by the right hon. Gentleman's Committee was not full of cause for anxiety. The Committee declared it was doubtful if the jury would have convicted at all if they had not been in some way influenced by the anonymous letters. They said—
  "The conviction was unsatisfactory, and after a full consideration of all the facts we cannot agree with the verdict of the jury."
  It was a principle of English law that if the prosecution failed to substantiate the charge and prove the prisoner guilty he was to be treated as innocent of the offence with which he was charged, and he protested that the findings of the right hon. Gentleman's Committee amounted to this, that with all the cruelty and consequential injuries which were involved, they imprisoned for three years a man on whom, by their own showing, they had no right to lay a hand. What was the justification for that? The only' justification suggested either by the right hon. Gentleman's Committee or by the right hon. Gentleman himself, was that Edalji wrote those letters. He made no attack on the intelligence or honesty of the expert witness, Gurrin, upon the handwriting, and believed he intended to give honest evidence; but he was discredited by the evidence he had given in reference to handwriting in the Beck case. The right hon. Gentleman should remember the opinion expressed of the greatest expert in handwriting who was called by Maitre Labori in the Dreyfus trial, and who, like Sir Forrest Fulton, regarded evidence as to handwriting at all times with the

  1011
  greatest suspicion. What was in effect the position of the Home Office? The jury found the man guilty on no other charge than that of killing the pony. Now, the one point upon which a jury were competent to pronounce was whether a man was or was not guilty of such a charge, but a question which they were least competent to decide was whether a man wrote certain letters in a matter of disputed caligraphy. The right hon. Gentleman bound himself to some supposed finding of the jury upon an issue upon which they were not competent to pronounce an opinion, while overruling their actual decision on a matter well within their competence. If it were true that there never was a finding that Edalji wrote these letters, let him ask whence the findings came which made it impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to relieve the man from the stigmas—he would say nothing at the moment about compensation — which destroyed his whole professional career as finally as if the original verdict of the jury had stood. He wished to speak of members of the committee with profound respect, but with even greater respect of the criticisms and comments of the most experienced and able Judge who sat in the Court of Appeal when he was nominated for the committee. He would read what Sir Robert Romer said.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid the letter of Sir Robert Homer was written after he became a member of the committee.
  *MR. F. E. SMITHsaid it was not disputed that Sir Robert Romer wrote this letter, and he was not a man to change his mind. The letter said—
  "It appears to me that, if such an inquiry is embarked upon, it must be done according to the ordinary rules of procedure governing a criminal trial. It ought to be public, or not at all. Witnesses ought to be examined and cross-examined."
  If that had been done there would have been very little heard of the Edalji case. That view was not adopted and as far as
  1012
  the authorship of those letters was concerned the Committee would hardly credit that there was not any finding by the right hon. Gentleman's Committee which showed that they ever brought their own judgment to bear on the question whether Edalji wrote the letters or not. They said—
  "We are unable to disagree with what we take to be the finding of the jury as to the letters."
  They assumed the finding of the jury, and said they were unable to disagree with what they took to be the finding of the jury. They said—
  "We are not prepared to dissent from the finding at which we think that the jury arrived."
  It was not pretended that this committee, eminent though its members were, had any particular knowledge of handwriting, and quite obviously they never brought to bear on the authorship of the letters their own independent judgment. They purported to found themselves on a supposed verdict of the jury which was never given. On internal evidence it was incredible that Edalji ever wrote these letters; secondly, no tribunal ever found that he had written them; thirdly, no tribunal had ever tried him for writing these letters. He commended that to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, with the reminder that the man was besmirched with the insinuation that he wrote the letters and was refused any inquiry as to whether ho wrote them or not. While Edalji was in gaol a horse was killed by ripping. A man called Green confessed to that outrage. The police knew that he had confessed. Inspector Campbell, with Green's confession in his pocket, was asked, "Have you found out who did it? He answered, "No, Sir," and afterwards said, "I beg your pardon, we have an idea." "Has nobody admitted that he did it?" he was asked, and when further asked" Is he in Court?" the answer was "Yes." Would it be believed that this man Green was permitted to leave the country a few

  1013
  weeks afterwards, and no charge was brought against him, and that he was never arrested? On 2nd November, eight days after the conviction, two horses were mutilated in the same way, and on 24th March following two ewes and a lamb had their throats cut and a man was convicted for that offence, and the prosecution had adopted the suggestion that Edalji was a member of a gang. He would confront the right hon. Gentleman with the evidence of his own committee, who reported—
  "Of the existence of a gang there appears to be no evidence."
  In Staffordshire the opinion was that those who imprisoned their fellow-subjects incurred some small responsibility, and the recurrence of these outrages shocked the public conscience. Consequently a petition signed by 10,000 persons was presented to the Home Secretary asking for a reconsideration of the case, and a Mr. Yelverton wrote to the chief constable of the district, the official directly responsible for the conduct of the police. The chief constable, in reply wrote—
  "November 8th, 1903. "
  Dear Sir.
  "I beg to acknowledge your further letter inclosing some more testimonials to George Edalji's general good character. It is right to tell you that you will find it a simple waste of time to attempt to prove that George Edalji could not, owing to his position and alleged good character, have been guilty of writing offensive and abominable letters. His father is as well aware as 1 am of his proclivities in the direction of anonymous writing, and several other people have personal knowledge on the same subject."
  The Committee would realise now why he had laid stress on the unblemished reputation of the elder Edalji. The statement made by the chief constable was not only false in itself, but it was repudiated by Mr. Edalji, son., The recipient wrote back at once and said these were most serious allegations and challenged the chief constable to produce the name of a single man who would come forward and substantiate the allegation that Edalji wrote those letters.
  1014
  The chief constable did not see fit to answer that letter. Was it not evident that this was a case which cried aloud for inquiry? This very gentleman was the man who made repeated representations to the Home Office since the conviction of Edalji, and he would ask what sort of representations they were likely to be? Were they likely to be of such a character as to lead to a fair consideration of the case by the Home Office? The right hon. Gentleman in his speech on the Criminal Appeal Bill said there was a reason for not disclosing those representations? Would he say whether they were in the prisoner's interest? Did they not repeat the charges made to Mr. Yelverton? Mr. Edalji, sen., being able to detect this particular insinuation, communicated with the right hon Gentleman and asked whether the chief constable had supplied him with any evidence in addition to that adduced at the trial for the purpose of supporting the case against his son. He should have thought that the father's petition was a reasonable one when he asked whether there was any fresh evidence to the sifting of which he might devote his scanty resources in order to vindicate his son's character. The right hon. Gentleman replied that it would be contrary to the practice of the Department to communicate the contents of reports made to him by the police in connection with applications for the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, as all such reports were of a strictly confidential character. The right hon. Gentleman was specifically asked whether there was any information in addition to what was adduced at the trial for the purpose of supporting the case of the prosecution. Was there any hon. Member on the benches opposite who would cheer the proposition that the Home Office was entitled to withhold from Mr. Edaiji, sen., any additional evidence which supported the case for the prosecution? If he had an opportunity he would gladly test whether that was the view of the Committee as a whole in the Division Lobby. What

  1015
  became of the indignation of this country? He recalled a time when we involved ourselves in our own virtue and talked of the secret dossier in France. In connection with the Criminal Appeal Bill it was stated that in the interest of prisoners, inquiries were constantly being made of a confidential character, and that information was given only because it was confidential. That line of defence would not help the right hon. Gentleman so far as his refusal disclosed in this document was concerned. He had spoken of the secret dossier; they had also the chose jugée, and for the "honour of the Army" had only to substitute the "honour of the police." He did not rest the case of Edalji in the least upon compensation. The House might judge what his claim to compensation was. His career had been destroyed, he had been in prison three years, and his father from the resources of an indigent clergyman had spent £600 in legal expenses. The strength of the case did not lie in the claim for monetary compensation but in the claim of a citizen of this country that his character should be vindicated or destroyed by a public inquiry. There had been no public inquiry. He would abandon and he believed that Edalji would abandon the question of compensation if the Home Secretary would give an opportunity of a public inquiry at which the police could be examined and cross-examined with the Press present. It was to the House of Commons, and the House of Commons alone, that the right hon. Gentleman could be made responsible. It was to the House of Commons that Edalji made the last appeal which the circumstances of the ease permitted him to make. He himself did not believe that the House of Commons, if the case was properly put to them, would turn to such an
  1016
  appeal with deaf ears. If they did so meet it, it was only left for this unhappy young man, brooding over his ruined career, the long drawn years of his imprisonment and his branded name, to draw such consolation as he could from the reflection civis Britannicus sum.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid the hon. and learned Gentleman had only left him five minutes in which to reply.
  *MR. F. E. SMITHsaid he had made repeated efforts earlier in the evening to bring up the case, but he was not fortunate enough to be called upon by the Chairman.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid the hon. and learned Gentleman was not present at all, so far as he knew, before dinner.
  *MR. F. E. SMITHsaid the right hon. Gentleman had made an allegation which was totally incorrect in a point in which accuracy was specially desirable. He was present, and he consulted the Chairman as to when he might reasonably expect to be called upon, and he availed himself of the first opportunity that was given to him.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he did not observe the hon. and learned Gentleman in his place. [Cries of "Withdraw."] He did not know that the hon. and learned Gentleman had made any attempt to rise. He was absolutely unable at that hour to make a full statement on the case, and he must point out at once to the House that the hon. and learned Member had made a speech—he did not contest his right at all—on a criminal case which lasted four days when tried by a jury, and which, he said, would

  1017
  take him two days to set out properly before the House. Ho accepted the statements which the hon. and learned Member had made in perfect good faith. He was not in the least doubting his good faith, but he had given no possibility to any Member of the House of knowing anything about the history of this most important investigation. He asked the House to remember that this case was tried before a jury, and that the jury returned a unanimous verdict. He also asked the House to remember that the case had been for years before the Home Office and before his own predecessors, that it had been submitted to two Lord Chancellors, and to the law officers of the preceding Government, and that every kind of expert advice had been called into being to assist their deliberations. Ho must remind the House also that, for reasons which he had no time or opportunity of stating, he submitted the whole case to three gentlemen whose experience and honour could not for a moment be impugned, that they probed the case from beginning to end, that they examined every single one of the allegations of the hon. Member, and reported to him in the document which he had laid before the House of Commons. He asked the House to remember that while it was entitled to insist on every information being given to it, yet it was not a Court of Appeal, and that it would be disastrous in the highest degree if it took upon itself the functions of a Court of Appeal. He asked the House, therefore, to withhold its judgment.
  And, it being Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

LONGTON (CAROLINE STREET CHAPEL) CHARITY BILL.
Read the third time, and passed.
LONGTON (CAROLINE STREET CHAPEL) CHARITY BILL.

  THE STRIKE AT BELFAST.
  On the Motion for the adjournment of the House,
  *MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDcalled attention to the state of affairs existing in Belfast that day. They had information that the soldiers had again interfered with pickets legally pursuing their duties as pickets. He would point out that the military had been called out to interfere with a trade dispute before there was any systematic disturbance of the peace. Since the military had been called out there had been only two isolated cases of disturbance. The military had been called upon in anticipation of trouble. While he and his friends were perfectly willing to admit the plea that there were special circumstances in Belfast, they did urge that, if the military were to be used, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary should use every particle of influence which he possessed with the view to the settlement of the dispute. At the present time the military were being used not to maintain law and order, but for the purpose of protracting a dispute in the interests of the employers [Cries of "Oh "]— that was their information—and to intimidate the strikers.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (MR. BIRRELL, BRISTOL, N.)said he was always willing to give the fullest information that came to him in his official capacity. In this matter he should like the House clearly to understand that the primary responsibility for maintaining order in Belfast rested with the local authority, and it was they who

  1019
  had requisitioned the aid of the military. He could not say a word by way of interference with the local authorities in the discharge of their difficult duties. But he kept himself fully informed of what was taking place in Belfast, and from telegrams he had received it appeared that all parts of the town were quiet, and that the situation was unchanged. The military at the docks were reduced yesterday, and they were to be still further reduced to-day and tomorrow. This had been done after consultation with the Mayor. He had telegraphed for information during the day, and had received a reply stating that no pickets had been arrested to-day, and there wore no detectives in disguise. All had passed off quietly except for the arrest of a non-union worker. The policeman who arrested him was struck over the eye, and he was treated at the hospital, but not detained. He believed the local authority were acting with considerable wisdom and discretion. His experience of life had led him to the conclusion that his good offices in the matter would be useless unless they were invited by all parties in the dispute.
  MR. SLOANsaid the circumstances in Belfast at present were exceptional. The local authority had considered it necessary that the military should be called out. The greatest difficulty at present arose out of the belief entertained in some quarters that both the police and the military were interfering with legitimate picketing. He asked the Chief Secretary to consider whether instructions could be given to the authorities in Belfast as to what constituted legal picketing during a trade dispute. If that were done misunderstandings and mistakes would be avoided. He sincerely trusted that the
  1020
  local authority in Belfast and the right hon. Gentleman would use all the influence they possessed to bring this lamentable strike to an end.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid that this subject had been sprung upon the House without notice being given to the Members for Belfast except the hon. Member for one division. His own constituency ran into a part of Belfast, and he might be permitted to say that Belfast was very well able to take care of itself. It had a reputation which was the envy of the loss industrious parts of Ireland. There were very few cases of industrial strife in Belfast, and those which had occurred in the past had always been peacefully settled. He was glad that the Chief Secretary was leaving the authorities on the spot to deal with the present conflict, and to know that the right hon. Gentleman was on the side of law and order.
  * MR. STAVELEY-HILL (Staffordshire, Kingswinford)hoped that some further time would be afforded for discussion of matters connected with Home Office Vote. The police of Staffordshire had some right to be heard on the question which had been under discussion.
  MR. MARKHAMjoined in the appeal. There were many questions of industrial importance that required discussion.
  *MR. J. A. PEASEsaid these representations should be conveyed to the Prime Minister, but that in his absence it was impossible for him to in any way commit the Government to afford further time for the discussion.
  Adjourned at fourteen minutes after Eleven o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:— Local Government Provisional Order (No. 8); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 12).
Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:— Local Government Provisional Order (No. 15).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Portobello and Musselburgh Tramways (Levenhall Extension) Order Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. — Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. — Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill [H. L.].— Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC
  COLONIES: ANNUAL.
  No. 528. Bermuda (Report for 1906).

  BRUNEI.
  Report on the State of Brunei for 1906.
  TREATY SERIES, No. 20 (1907).
  Accession of Cuba, Dominican Republic, Hayti, and Paraguay to the Convention sign d at Geneva, 22nd August, 1864, for the amelioration of the condition of the wounded in armies in the field, 6th July, 1907.

  COMMERCIAL, No. 7 (1907).
  International Sugar Commission, Spring Session, 1907. Report of Proceedings (in continuation of Commercial, No. 1 (1907)).

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3859. Austria-Hungary (Trieste).
  No. 3860. China (Teng Yuch).
  No. 3861. Japan (Shimonoseki).
  Presented (by Command), and ordere to lie on the Table.

  POST OFFICE (FOREIGN AND COLONIAL PARCEL POST, PERU).
  The Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 8) Warrant, 1907, dated 29th June, 1907. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  FIJI.
  Return giving correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Government of Fiji, respecting the sale of certain lands in the Provinces of Rewa and Naitasiri. Presented (pursuant to order of Tuesday last), and to be printed. (No. 120.)
  COMPANIES (CONSOLIDATION) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to consolidate the Companies Act, 1862, and the Acts amending it— Was presented by the Lord Granard (E. Granard); read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next. (No. 121.)

  INJURED ANIMALS ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  *LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, this Bill is a vary short one, and in view of the important matters which are coming before your Lordships I will not occupy more than a minute or two in describing its objects. It is a Bill to amend and enlarge the Injured Animals Act, 1894. That Act provided for the slaughter of injured horses, mules, or asses by or by order of the police, and it is proposed in this Bill that the definition of "animal"

  811
  shall also include any bull, cow, ox, heifer, calf, sheep, goat, or swine. A case arose in which a heifer had fallen into a quarry, and a merciful police constable who shot it in order to put it out of its pain was proceeded against and fined £9. I am sure your Lordships will agree that this was a rather cruel sentence for an act of mercy. Moreover, the Act of 1894 did not provide for the case of diseased animals, but they are included in this Bill. The Bill has passed through the House of Commons, and I hope your Lordships will agree to give it a Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."— (Lord Aberdare.)
  EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I need only say that His Majesty's Government will be very glad to do all in their power to assist the noble Lord in passing this Bill through your Lordships' House.
  On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  TERRITORIAL AND RESERVE FORCES BILL.
  Report of Amendments received.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHmoved to amend Clause 1, Subsection (5), by deleting all the words after the words "Houses of Parliament." The sub section, as amended, would read—
  "All schemes made in pursuance of this Part of this Act shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.">
  He explained that it had been thought more convenient to have all the pro- visions as to the laying of schemes as well as Orders in Council before Parliament in Clause 36.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 13, to leave out from the word 'Parliament' to the end of Subsection (5)."—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  EARL FORTESCUEmoved to add a new subsection:— "(7) The chairman of the Association may receive such
  812
  remuneration as the Association think reasonable." This subsection was, he explained, taken from the Municipal Corporations Act, which was also incorporated by reference in the County Councils Act of 1888. He thought the County Associations which were to be set up in the future ought to have the same powers, if they thought fit to use them, of giving remuneration to their chairmen as municipal corporations and county councils possessed. It was well known that these powers had been sparingly exercised by town councils, and even more sparingly by county councils. It was equally well known that a good many gentlemen had been at one time or another appointed to the position of mayor partly owing to their possessing private means, and that many qualified persons had been obliged to decline the honour through lack of private income. It was most desirable, from the national point of view, that the best man should be obtained to fill the office of chairman of the Association, and he thought it was possible that in some cases the man best qualified for the purpose might already have a great deal to do and be obliged to say that he could only undertake the work by giving up a directorship or by employing another clerk, and that though he was willing enough to give his time he could not afford to give his money as well, and therefore could not undertake this office unless he was put in the same position monetarily as he would be in if he did not fill it, The Associations should not be prevented from obtaining the services of a gentleman of that character through the lack of power to pay remuneration. If the may or of, say, Poplar or West Ham made a mess of things, only the borough concerned suffered: but if, owing to any lack of efficiency in the County Association of, say, Sussex, an enemy succeeded in landing upon our shores, the whole country would suffer. He therefore hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
  Amendment moved:—
  "In page 3, line 29, after the word ' volunteers' to insert the following new subsection: '(7) The chairman of the Association may receive such remuneration as the Association think reasonable.' "—(Earl Fortescue.)
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHwas unable to accept the Amendment, which, in the opinion of the Government, ran counter to the whole spirit of the scheme. The Government had never contemplated paying salaries to any member of the Association except the secretary, who would probably require several paid clerks under him. The whole conception of the Associations was that all the members should give their services voluntarily, and the Government had every reason to believe that a sufficient number of gentlemen would consent to serve upon the Associations. It was really essential to the efficiency of the Territorial Army that all the expenses not directly connected with the maintenance of the Force should be kept down to the lowest level, and it was the intention of the Army Council that the expenses of the Associations should not be allowed to exceed what was absolutely necessary to meet what was required of them. The worst possible service the Associations could do to the Territorial Army would be to divert from the funds handed to them by Parliament more than was absolutely necessary for the economical working of the Associations. He hoped the noble Earl would not press the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  VISCOUNT ESHER: moved to amend Clause 2, Paragraph (/)—
  "(f) Establishing or assisting cadet battalions and corps and also rifle clubs,"
  by adding the words—
  "provided that no financial assistance out of money voted by Parliament shall be given by an association in respect of any person in a battalion or corps in a school in receipt of a Parliamentary grant until such person has attained the age of sixteen."
  In moving this Amendment, he hoped the noble Earl the Under-Secretary would not think him discourteous if he appealed, not to His Majesty's Government, but to the majority of their Lordships, who on a recent occasion voted for this subsection as it now stood. It was unnecessary and it would be unbecoming in him to attempt to recall to their Lordships the arguments which were so forcibly and so conclusively put by his noble and gallant friend Lord
  814
  Methuen in favour of leaving to the associations which were about to be set up under the Bill the power to train boys under the age of sixteen. Their Lordships would remember that by the clause as it stood in the Bill as it came up to their Lordships' House any such assistance was illegal and impossible. Yet, when Lord Methuen proposed to amend the clause, no arguments, if he might venture to say so, were brought forward by His Majesty's Government to controvert those which his noble and gallant friend used. It was true that the noble Earl the Under-Secretary urged the plea of privilege, and the point he took was that the privileges of the other House were infringed by the action of Lord Methuen. He did not propose to say anything on that point, which he did not think was one which carried very much weight with their Lordships. Another argument was used. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack appeared to be very much influenced by the fact that the special representatives of the working classes in the House of Commons were opposed to the training of young boys to arms. On that he would like to say, with great deference, that even if they admitted that the working classes were of one mind on this point, which he ventured to ask their Lordships to believe could only be asserted with some degree of doubt, it was not always that the working classes were themselves the best judges of their own interests. The Factory Acts, for instance, were strongly opposed by the representatives of the working classes both in the House of Commons and in the country. That was not a point which he desired to press, but he could not refrain from alluding to it, owing to its having been raised by so eminent an authority as the Lord Chancellor. He did not deny that in dealing with moneys under their control the House of Commons could make their own terms. This Amendment as now proposed admitted to the full this contention. But the Amendment was based upon other considerations. If the Bill went down as it stood to the House of Commons it was very unlikely that this subsection in its present form would be agreed to. One of two things must happen, either the point of privilege would be raised,

  815
  in which case the subsection in its present form, would, he imagined, not be put, and the Bill would return to their Lordships in its original shape; or the Speaker would allow their Lordships' Amendment to be put. In the latter case it did not require a great stretch of imagination to conceive that in all probability the Amendment would be rejected and the Bill returned to their Lordships in the shape in which it was originally presented to them. He hoped his noble and gallant friend and their Lordships would feel that this would be a serious mischance, and a matter of grave regret to all who, like himself, strongly sympathise with Lord Methuen and the majority of the House on this question. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would agree to the Amendment. It met, he ventured to think, all reasonable objection on the part of the House of Commons. It provided what was only just and fair— that the associations should be empowered to apply moneys which accrued to them from private sources to the use of cadet corps should they think fit to do so. That was surely not an unreasonable demand. No one's hands were tied. Neither the County Associations nor the Board of Education were bound by this Amendment. It carried out what he believed was the intention of the House of Commons, and it went a long way to meet the aspirations and demands of his noble and gallant friend Lord Methuen. He reminded the House that the provision was only permissive, and expressed the hope that the Amendment would not only be accepted by their Lordships but also in the other House.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 4, line 23, after the word 'clubs' to insert the words 'provided that no financial assistance out of money voted by Parliament shall be given by an association in respect of any person in a battalion or corps in a school in receipt of a Parliamentary grant until such person has attained the age of sixteen.' "-— (Viscount Esher.)
  *THE EARL OF MEATHexpressed regret that he was unable, when the Bill was in Committee, to move the Amendment he had placed on the Paper, and he desired to thank his noble and gallant friend Lord Methuen for fathering the Amend-
  816
  ment for him, and also those noble Lords who supported it and carried it to such a triumphant conclusion. They now heard the noble Viscount who had just sat down urging their Lordships nine days afterwards to alter completely the decision to which they came by the large majority of ninety-nine, and the arguments he had used were by no means conclusive. If their Lordships were to alter their decision within nine days they would be doing something very like stultifying themselves, especially in the face of the strong expression of opinion given. The country would consider that their Lordships had very little confidence in their own opinion if they now changed the whole complexion of their decision, as was proposed by the noble Viscount. The Amendment was aimed at what to his mind was the most important part of the Bill as originally introduced in the House of Commons. It was important that the youth of this country should be trained to the use of arms out of State funds; under the Amendment, on the other hand, they, as private individuals, would have to subscribe to what ought to be a national work. The very thing which they approved of in this Bill as originally introduced was that the State recognised the fact that every citizen should do his duty and should learn it in youth at the cost of the State; but now they were asked to put their hands into their pockets and subscribe towards the defence of the country. Unless their Lordships desired to stultify themselves, they ought to adhere to the decision at which they arrived in Committee, and which he was perfectly confident was the right decision. When Mr. Haldane originally introduced his Bill he said he wanted the youth of the nation to undergo training so that they could keep the reservoir always full. The Secretary of State said they wanted to work the cadet corps into a more important position, and by so doing they would, Mr. Haldane said, allay fear and give people a sense of security which they had not hitherto had. That was what all their Lordships desired. Mr. Haldane went on to say that from every point of view cadet corps were things to be encouraged in the interest of the nation. But now they were asked to reverse all this. They were told

  817
  that it was absolutely wicked, and that they ought to be ashamed to teach young lads how to shoot; they would go and shoot their grandmothers. He knew that the Under-secretary had repudiated the doctrine that it would encourage militarism. He was thankful to hear that statement, and he hoped there were many of the noble Earl's followers who believed him. But while admitting that it would not introduce militarism, the noble Earl had stated that what the Government wanted was to increase the lighting forces of the country, and that this proposal would not help them, be-cause it had reference only to the training of lads. While not advocating conscription, he (Lord Meath) held that every lad should be trained to arms, and that it was the duty of every man to be able to defend his country if called upon to do so. That was the position originally taken up by Mr. Haldane. Why did he recede from it? It was not for him to say what the right hon. Gentleman's motives were, but it was most extraordinary that within so short a time he should absolutely reverse the opinion he had publicly expressed in regard to the necessity of training the nation in arms. The phrase "nation in arms" originated, he believed, with Mr. Haldane. Well, why did he suddenly change? A deputation of men, some of them, doubtless, having great influence in the country, but not very numerous, called upon the right hon. Gentleman and pointed out the dangers of militarism which the Under-secretary had repudiated; the great argument they used against the proposal was that it would advance militarism. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to have fallen flat on his face before the deputation; he apparently agreed to everything they asked, and his colleagues elsewhere had to follow suit and declare it was all a mistake. This was not the first time that they had had members of His Majesty's Government saying one thing one day and saying absolutely another a few days afterwards; and they had, therefore, got rather accustomed to it. But he hoped that their Lordships would not support the action of the Government in altering so fundamental a provision in their Bill. The Bill as it came up to their Lordships would have made it absolutely
  818
  illegal for any County Association to give money towards the training of lads under sixteen. It was perfectly true that the Amendment now proposed by the noble Viscount would, if passed, so far relieve the situation that the associations could accept private money given to them for this training; but private individuals could give money now for this purpose, and there was no need to send it to the County Associations. They lived in a free country still, think God! and could give money if they liked towards the maintenance of cadet corps. Mr. Haldane had said he wanted to till the reservoir by training lads so as to create a nation in arms. When danger threatened, these trained lads, by that time grown into men, would — not be compelled to serve out of the country— but be available for its service. Had they forgotten the lesson of the South African War, when we lost thousands and thousands of valuable lives, because those men who went out could neither ride nor shoot, nor do anything else but offer their bodies as targets to the enemy? Let them do what they could to avoid such a lamentable result again by training boys in time. The Secretary of State was doing his very best to make the success of his Bill impossible. Its object was to increase the forces of the country; they would not do that unless they trained their lads in early youth. Very few Volunteers joined after the age of eighteen. At seventeen a lad ceased to be a cadet and became a Volunteer, obtaining his grant. Therefore, if they wished to encourage cadet corps they must train lads before the age of sixteen, or they would not get them at all. The years immediately after sixteen were the spring-time of a young man's life, and they knew that in spring a young man's fancy lightly turned to thoughts of love. The young woman was the great enemy at that age. A young man would not lock himself up in a drill hall, unless he was compelled to, when he had a young woman waiting for him round the corner. After sixteen a young man had either become a confirmed loafer or had made up his mind what his profession was going to be, and was rightly intent upon that profession. The great majority were in the latter position, and they were not going— this was what they would say

  819
  — to waste their time drilling when they got no encouragement and when everything was done to handicap the man who gave up his time, money, and pleasure for patriotic duty. There was not only business and the young woman round the corner, but another thing to be considered— at that age a young man had just broken loose from all the trammels of school and of authority, and he was not going voluntarily to put himself under authority again. He therefore went off, and they did not get him. If they had the lads trained in early youth, they got over that drudgery and "barrack-square" routine which prevented many adults who had a notion that they were not dignified from enlisting or from joining the Volunteer force. He could not understand this terrible timidity, this continual yielding to the cries of hostile sections of their Party, on the part of a Government supported by the largest majority they had seen for centuries. Even if all the hostile sections in the other House were to combine, the Government would still possess an overwhelming majority. The noble Earl the Under-Secretary smiled. He was afraid the noble Earl did not recognise the value of that majority as much as he ought. There could be, in his mind, no more effective guarantee for the peace of the world than a citizen Army. They had been told that this "nation in arms" would be a danger; that if they trained the nation to arms they would want to fight. That was a perfect fallacy. When a man had to do his own fighting he was much less ready to quarrel. There was a great deal of truth in the opinion held on the continent that there was no country so ready to go to war as this country, and foreigners attributed this to the fact that there were large masses in this country who had never known what it was to suffer in their own persons and were quite unfamiliar with the horrors, the terrors, and the privations of war. By having a hired soldiery the people of this country could shelter themselves behind those men and clamour for war. Until the nation was trained to arms they could rest assured that they would ever have these continual panics and continual dreads. However powerful might be our Fleet, and however well trained our Sailors, no one could say that some
  820
  horrible chance might not overtake this country and for a short period of forty-eight hours leave us unprepared. This was too great a country, the people were too patriotic a people, our Empire was too great an Empire, to run any risks. To his mind it was a most extraordinary fact that the people who were most opposed to a citizen Army in this country were those whose political feeling leaned towards radicalism and democracy. He could not understand the true democrat being opposed to a citizen Army. The true democrat everywhere else was in favour of a citizen Army; they could not point to any country in the world where the true democrat was not in favour of such an Army. Our Colonies had led the way, and there was not a single British Colony, except, perhaps, the new ones, which would follow suit shortly, which had not gone in for the systematic training of lads at school. Switzerland had for ages and ages had its citizen Army. Yet, forsooth, the democracy in this country said, "Give us a hired Army, but for goodness sake do not give us a citizen Army." It was the irony of fate that" it should be left to their Lordships' House to defend what ought to be defended by every democrat who was true to his colours. His own desire was to see some really practical steps taken towards making this country safe by the universal military training— not conscription— of all British subjects.
  *EARL ROBERTSthought the alteration in the clause as it came from the other House would, if it was maintained, do more to injure Mr. Haldane's idea of a Territorial Army on a voluntary basis than anything else. He should continue to urge it was essential that our boys should get an early training, but he was inclined to think that half a loaf was better than no bread, and as he understood that, if the Bill were passed in the form in which it came to that House, the County Associations would have been prohibited from making use even of privately-subscribed funds for the training of boys in cadet corps, he would vote for the Amendment, It was most important that we should do all in our power to train our boys, and he thought the best thing they could do, until the

  821
  other House had, if he might say so, seen the error of its ways, was to accept the noble Viscount's Amendment, and hope that the necessary funds would be forthcoming for the purpose.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he did not know that it was necessary for him to say much upon this Amendment. All he could say, speaking for the Government, was that they would support the proviso, but it had nothing to do with those on the Government Bench.
  LORD NEWTONasked whether the noble Earl meant that he washed his hands of the Amendment. Could not the Government give any undertaking to get it accepted in another place? They were responsible for this Bill, and the noble Earl was not entitled to assume an attitude of complete indifference towards changes in a Bill of this character. After the noble Earl's statement, he hoped the House would not agree to the Amendment, but would maintain their original attitude. At any rate, the Amendment should not be accepted without some statement by a responsible Member of the Government that the Government would do their best to secure its acceptance in another place.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: It would be impossible for me to say what would be done in another place. But we shall give our friendly support to the proviso. We cannot go further.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the attitude of the noble Earl who has charge of this Bill, not for the first time, has excited a certain amount of surprise. Here is a proposal of the very first importance, which has twice been discussed at great length— a proposal which evidently greatly in-interests and moves many noble Lords; and yet the noble Earl in charge of the Bill tells us that he is quite unable to give the House any assistance.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I said that the Government would support the Amendment, but I could not speak for the whole body of the House of Commons.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The noble Earl has now advanced one step further. We did not gather a moment ago that His Majesty's Government were prepared, as I now understand they are, to support the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Esher with all the authority which they know they possess in another place. To my mind that makes the whole difference. As to the merits of the Amendment, I should like for one moment to remind your Lordships that there was nothing in the Bill as it stood when it was introduced to make it obligatory on the County Associations to assist these cadet corps and rifle clubs. I dwell upon that, because I think the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Meath, was rather based upon the assumption that the Amendment would take away from the Bill a provision which would have enabled us to obtain what he and others have described as "a nation in arms." The Bill never contained any provision of the sort. The clause is a purely permissive one, and it is only a permissive clause which we should lose if this Amendment were to be made. I caught an observation by Lord Esher in his opening remarks to which I wish for a moment to call attention. I understood him to say, in moving his Amendment that he admitted to the full the contention that the Amendment inserted by your Lordships in Committee the other evening was ultra vires as a breach of the privilege of the House of Commons.
  VISCOUNT ESHER: I said that I thought it was a matter of considerable doubt.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: At any rate I desire to say that if I vote for the Amendment I shall certainly not do so with any idea of admitting that the original Amendment was a breach of the privilege of the House of Commons. I remain absolutely unconvinced upon that point, and I desire to guard myself against such admission. What does the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Esher do? It is clear that these County Associations will dispose of funds derived from two different sources. There will be funds received from the Government in the shape of a

  823
  block-grant which we understand is to be made by the War Office to these associations, and there will be other funds contributed from different sources. As the Bill stood when it came up to this House, the County Associations found themselves absolutely precluded from spending any money, no matter from what sources derived, upon these cadet corps and rifle clubs. The Amendment of my noble friend Lord Esher will at any rate to some extent cure that defect, because it makes it clear that the only disability imposed on the County Associations has reference to money received from Government sources. It seems to me, therefore, that the Amendment does very considerably relieve the situation. I am bound to add that the more we consider the position and duties of these County Associations, the more evident does it become that the expenditure which their operations will necessitate will be an enormous expenditure. We are quite unable to arrive at any conjecture as to the extent to which that expenditure may reach, and therefore I feel a certain misgiving at the idea of adding to the responsibilities, or to the possible responsibilities, of the associations, a responsibility for the great number of cadet battalions and rifle clubs which exist or may spring up in great numbers all over the country. On the whole, therefore, I am disposed to accept the compromise— for it is a compromise— which my noble friend Lord Esher has proposed; but if I am to give my vote for him, should we go to a division, I do desire to be assured, and I hope we shall be assured in the most specific terms, that the Amendment will be supported by His Majesty's Government in another place, and that we are not likely to have the Bill sent back to us with neither the original Amendment nor the Amendment now proposed by Lord Esher.
  *THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): My Lords, I merely desire to make two observations. In the first place, I confirm, so far as I am able to do so, the impression which is in the noble Marquess's mind as to the difference which the insertion of this provision would make in the
  824
  Bill as it came up to your Lordships' House. I quite agree that under the Bill as it came up it would not have been competent for an association to spend any money, however derived, on these cadet corps; and I think the noble Earl, Lord Meath, was in error in imagining that in any case that would have been possible. The second observation I have to make is that it undoubtedly is the case that in another place His Majesty's Government will do their best to see that this provision becomes part of the final provisions of the Bill.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  *VISCOUNT MIDLETONmoved to insert words converting the duty of the association as to safe custody of arms and equipment into a duty to provide accommodation for that safe custody. When this question was raised in Committee, the noble Earl the Under-Secretary undertook to bring up words on Report which would deal with the point; and the noble Earl had now informed him that he was willing to accept this Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 4, line 26, before the word 'the' to insert the words 'providing accommodation for.' "— (Viscount Midleton.)
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I accept the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  *VISCOUNT MIDLETON: moved another Amendment to provide that the requirements on mobilisation, to be supplied by the County Associations, should be embodied, where practicable, in the regulations. This question was raised by Lord Lovat in Committee, and the noble Earl the Under-Secretary then undertook to consider to what extent he could pledge the Government that these regulations would be so laid down. The noble Earl now informed him that he would be willing to agree to the insertion after paragraph (i)—
  "(i) The supply of the requirements on mobilisation of the units of the Territorial Force within the county, in so far as those.

  825
  requirements are directed by the Army Council to be met locally."
  of the words—
  "Such requirements, where practicable, to be embodied in Regulations."
  This did not carry out the whole desire of Lord Lovat, who wished that the scheme should be laid down on the passing of the Act. This was, however, an administrative question, and he understood that it had received the careful consideration of the Secretary of State, and that his view was that it would not be practicable, immediately on the passing of the Act, to frame requirements on mobilisation with regard to the whole of the Territorial Army, and that all he was able to do was to embody the requirements in the regulations where-ever practicable. He begged to move.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 4, line 30, after the word 'locally' to insert, the words 'such requirements, where practicable, to be embodied in regulations.' "— (Viscount Midleton.)
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I accept the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD BLYTHSWOODmoved to insert the following subsection: "The members of an association shall not be under any pecuniary liability for any act done by them in their capacity as members of such association in carrying out the provisions of this Act." In moving this Amendment he hoped it would be understood that he did so entirely in the interests of the Bill. He was convinced that in default of such a provision, it would not be possible to induce men to serve on the associations and incur an unlimited liability. They could not force people to serve, and they had the dictum of the Lord President that if the money given by Parliament to the associations was not sufficient to carry out the work, the associations would be liable. Therefore they would not get these gentlemen to serve. It was very difficult to see where, in his county, they were going to get the members from. Most of the gentlemen who were qualified were already on the county council and the other bodies, the work of which was
  826
  exceedingly onerous; and it was unreasonable to expect them to come forward and undertake further work if they were to be liable for expenses incurred under the Act. In his own county there were three strong battalions of Volunteers— in all some thirty-nine companies. At £75 per company the association would receive £2,925. Would that sum in any way cover the expenses which the County Association would have to face under the Bill?
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he did not wish to interrupt the noble Lord; but he thought it might perhaps save time if he stated that the Government would be pleased to accept the Amendment.
  LORD BLYTHSWOODsaid that, in those circumstances, he would not say more, but would move the Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 29, after the word 'Treasury' to insert the following new subsection:— '(7) The members of an association shall not be under any pecuniary liability for any act done by them in their capacity as members of such association in carrying out the provisions of this Act."— (Lord Blythswood.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  EARL FORTESCUEin Clause 5 (Raising and Maintenance of Force) moved the insertion of a new subsection. He said the words were taken almost verbatim from the County Councils Act, and as he understood the Government accepted the Amendment he would move it without further explanation.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page C, line 33, after the word ' made ' to insert the following new subsection:— '(4) — (a) Any County Associations may from time to time join in appointing out of their respective bodies a joint committee for any purpose in respect of which they are jointly interested; (b) Any Association appointing a joint committee under this subsection may delegate to it any power which such Association might exercise for the purpose for which the committee is appointed;(c) Subject to the terms of delegation any such joint committee shall in respect of any matter delegated to it have the same power in all respects as the Associations appointing it; (d) The costs of a joint committee shall be defrayed by the Associations by whom it has been appointed, in such proportion as may be agreed between.

  827
  them, and the accounts of such joint committees and their officers shall for the purposes of the provisions of this Act be deemed to be accounts of the Associations appointing them and of their officers.' "—(Earl Fortescue.)
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the Government would accept the Amendment, but he thought it would be better that it should come in as a new clause to follow Clause 4.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid he would move the Amendment in the shape of a new clause.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to, and new clause added to the Bill.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH,in Clause 6 (Government, discipline, and pay), moved an Amendment in the second subsection providing that an Order may be issued providing for the constitution of a permanent staff, including adjutants and staff sergeants, who "may" (instead of "shall," as in the Bill) be members of the Regular Forces, and may regulate the appointment, rank, duties, and numbers of the officers and non-commissioned officers of the Territorial Force. It was to be remembered that the contemplated change would not be made all at once, but would be deferred until the training machinery of the Territorial Army was in working order and training units had been established. The Army Council had gone very carefully into this question and made most careful inquiries, and they had come to the conclusion that it would be for the ultimate benefit of the Territorial Army if Regular assistance in training the men was dispensed with in future, and commanding officers realised that they were themselves solely responsible for the training of the men as well as the need of bringing their officers to regard themselves as the only instructors of the men under their charge. Formerly the adjutant of a regiment or battalion was looked upon as its chief instructor, and far too great reliance was placed on his knowledge and experience. In the future it was considered desirable that the adjutant's energy should be concentrated on the administrative duties connected with his unit, while assistance in training matters would be provided by the training battalions which were to be called into
  828
  being to supply it. In connection with the disappearance of the Regular adjutants there was no desire to effect any petty economy at the ultimate expense of the Territorial Army. They had been guided in this matter by the advice of the general staff who had been engaged in discovering the best possible system of training. They had also fortified their opinion by reports from those possessing practical experience, and these had unmistakably, and almost without exception, shown that the presence of a Regular adjutant had often tended to produce on the part of the officers of the Auxiliary Forces a lack of energy in training units. At least one commanding officer assured them that he had done without the assistance of a Regular adjutant for some years with marked advantage, and that on no account would he revert to the system which was now generally in vogue. There was another practical difficulty. He did not think it had been appreciated what the effect of leaving in the word "shall" would be. One very important result would be that from the moment the Bill passed every Volunteer battalion must either have a Regular adjutant or no adjutant at all, so that if no Regular adjutant were available it would have to employ someone as acting adjutant without pay. What an important change this would effect would be obvious when he told their Lordships that in March last there were some twenty-seven paid acting adjutants attached to Volunteer battalions. For these reasons he hoped their Lordships would agree to substitute the word "may" for the more imperative word "shall."
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 7, line 18. to leave out the word 'shall' and to insert the word ' may.' "—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  THE EARL OF ERROLLsaid that he looked upon it as being a point of vital importance that the adjutant of the Auxiliary Forces should belong to the Regular Army. He had considerable experience with the Yeomanry, and he knew from that experience how necessary it was that the adjutant should be a member of the Regular Army. If the commanding officers were able to devote the whole of their time to the training of

  829
  the men, perhaps the services of the adjutant would not be necessary; but a great many of them were busy men whose time was occupied with private affairs, and it was impossible that they should be able to devote sufficient time to instruct their men thoroughly. It was thus necessary that there should be at least one officer in the regiment who was actually up to date and in touch with modern ideas, and the only way to attain this end was to employ an officer of the Regular Forces. He hoped that the Amendment would not be accepted.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYstrongly opposed the Amendment. It was said that a colonel who had a Regular adjutant was inclined to lean too much upon the adjutant and leave the whole burden of training to him. If that were so, it was the fault of the higher military authorities for permitting it. No commanding officer of an Auxiliary unit who was fit for his post ought to rely upon the adjutant entirely. Therefore their Lordships must not accept the argument of the crutch. Then it was contended the adjutant might interfere with the scheme of training which had been circulated. He could not see why the presence of a Regular adjutant should interfere with that scheme of training. On the contrary, the presence of the adjutant would greatly assist the work of those Regular officers who would have to go round inspecting. By far the most important point in any scheme of Army reform was the number of Regular officers. We could not extemporise trained Regular officers, and in the stress of a great war the country would give anything to have Regular officers to send to the front. According to estimates for this year the present establishment of Regular officers was 8,360, but after the changes which the Secretary of State contemplated in his scheme we should only have a total of 7,970. Although trained Regular officers were of vital importance to the country, under the administration of the present Secretary of State we should be short of the present establishment by 300 or 400. He hoped their Lordships would adhere to the Bill as it stood and not pass the Amendment. If they kept the Bill as it was, they left the adjutants
  830
  as quartermasters in the Territorial Force, and there would be scarcely any diminution in the number of officers. If the Amendment were carried, it would mean a considerable loss of officers of the Regular Army.
  LORD RIBBLESDALEsaid he understood the noble Earl to say that one of the Government's reasons for developing the drilling aptitude of officers of the Territorial regiments was that the adjutants should have more time to devote to administrative duties. He remembered very well that when he was in the Army adjutants were divided into two sorts— the adjutants who lived in the orderly room and the adjutants who lived in the barrack square. If a smart regiment was wanted they were always more likely to get it from the adjutant who spent his time in the barrack square. He would like to know whether by administrative duties it was meant that the adjutants were to devote their time entirely to office work and correspondence, and that the whole of the drilling and smartening of the regiments was to be done by the regimental officers.
  LORD ZOUCHE OF HARYNGWORTHhoped the House would pause before accepting the Amendment, which seemed to him to go to the very root of the whole question of the efficiency of the Territorial Forces. It was difficult to understand what had led to this change on the part of His Majesty's Government, because the words as they originally stood—
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. The words were inserted as an Amendment from his own side of the House.
  LORD ZOUCHE OF HARYNGWORTHcontended that, whatever the origin or source of the provision, the word "shall" should remain in the Bill. The Territorial Forces, more especially as regarded the Volunteers, had only limited opportunities when they could drill and make themselves efficient. They started knowing very little, and it was of the utmost importance that they should have the advantages of competent instructors. The assistance which a

  831
  Regular adjutant could give a battalion was of the greatest value. The Amendment would deal not only with adjutants but with staff sergeants. If the expression staff sergeants meant the ordinary company drill instructors, then he ventured to say a fatal blow would be struck at the efficient training of the Territorial Army should they be withdrawn. The art of teaching drill to men who previously knew nothing about it required special training in itself, and in nine cases out of ten instruction could not be efficiently given by a person who had not himself received that technical training which membership of His Majesty's Regular Forces would give him.
  LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUsaid that, having been responsible for the insertion of the original Amendment, he wished to say two or three words on the subject. As a Volunteer he should prefer to have Regular adjutants, but, after reading the Secretary of State's Paper, he thought that Regular adjutants might not be necessary under the new system of training. He asked the Government to give an undertaking that the Regular adjutants should not be withdrawn until experience had shown whether the Territorial scheme was satisfactory or not.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDagreed that a Militia officer, who had a considerable amount of experience, ought to be independent of his adjutant. But it was almost impossible for a Volunteer officer to acquire that knowledge of military matters which would enable him to do without the help of an adjutant. It was not so much a question of drill as of military discipline. Military discipline was a habit; it could not be learned from books. He had himself watched from year to year the discipline of a regiment gradually improving, because of the steady effect of a proper and wise exercise of discipline upon them. They learned unconsciously the habit of discipline. It was on exactly this point that the Volunteer commanding officer was extremely ignorant, and he was liable to be either too lax or too severe. These were faults which the Volunteer commanding officer learned to avoid from the experience of a Regular adjutant.
  832
  It might, perhaps, be true that this placed the commanding officer in the position of having a crutch, but he was convinced that in this matter of military discipline the assistance of the Regular adjutant was absolutely essential.
  *LORD LUCAS: said that one or two of the speeches that had been delivered by noble Lords opposite were made under the impression that the two alternatives before the House were either to continue the present system of having Regular adjutants, or go back to the system of having no adjutants at all. That was not the case. As had been already made abundantly plain by the Secretary of State, this proposed change, if it was made, would be made gradually. It was certainly not until the new training machinery was in working order that any step would be taken to abolish the Regular adjutants. The new machinery was the result of careful consideration of the problem of training. It was the view of the General Staff that they would be able to get a better form of instruction by this method. As to the point raised by the noble Lord opposite, Lord Zouche, with regard to staff-sergeants, those sergeants stood in a different category from Regular adjutants. The staff-sergeant had to drill the men night after night, and that was a thing which no officer of the Territorial Force could do. He understood there was no intention of doing away with the Regular sergeant-instructors who would continue to be attached, as at present, to the units of the Territorial Force. With regard to the argument of the crutch, everybody knew that Lord Salisbury was a commanding officer who required assistance from no one, but the noble Marquess had been a commanding officer so long that he had probably forgotten what the feelings of the younger officers were. It did not develop the power of command in a young officer to have a Regular officer who was ready to tell him what to do whenever he was in doubt, and who literally acted as a crutch to him. What did give a man confidence was to have a knowledge of his subject. In the ordinary Volunteer regiment, unless a man gave a great deal of time to it, there was no method by which he could really learn his work.

  833
  The result was that an officer went on parade not knowing how to command. If this new scheme worked out as they hoped, they would be able to give real instruction to their officers and non commissioned officers. Surely that would develop in them the power to command. He agreed that it was of the greatest importance to maintain the connection between the Regular Army and the Territorial Army, but these men ought to provide just as good a link as the Volunteer adjutant did at present. As to administration, the Regular adjutant up to the present had been the administrative and training authority. When the now scheme came into force training would not be in the hands of the Regular adjutant, who would be simply an administrative officer. He thought it would be impossible to give a pledge that the change should not take place within a definite time, but it would probably be two or three years before it was begun.
  EARL BROWNLOWsuggested as an alternative to the Amendment that after the word "shall" the words "as far as possible" should be inserted. The provision would then read—
  "and may provide for the constitution of a permanent staff, including adjutants and staff sergeants who shall as far as possible be members of His Majesty's Regular Forces."
  It was desirable that Regular officers should be appointed as adjutants, but there had been times when it was impossible to get Regular officers to take up these duties. At the outbreak of the South African War he had the honour of commanding a Volunteer brigade, and his brigade-major and one of his adjutants were taken away. The result was that he had to go on for two years with a Volunteer brigade-major and a Volunteer adjutant, and as brigadier he greatly missed the presence of the Regular brigade-major, although he was bound to admit that the Volunteer officer, who had had great experience in the Volunteers, performed the duties temporarily to his entire satisfaction. If such a contingency should occur again it would be absolutely necessary to appoint a Volunteer. Although he most cordially endorsed what had been said by Volunteer
  834
  officers that evening as to the desirability of having Regular officers in these posts, still the insertion of the words he suggested would leave a loophole for appointing Volunteers in cases where it was impossible to get Regular officers.
  LORD LOVATsaid their Lordships would have to make up their mind whether they were going to follow the advice of the General Staff or of noble Lords who commanded units and who had addressed them that evening. To his mind the whole question of Volunteer service turned on the question of discipline, and discipline could only be got by having some authority in a regiment who not only knew his work, but who was known by the whole of the regiment to know it. He was one of those who believed in the training of officers, but why should they throw away the adjutants who were a stand-by to many a battalion? He would not enter into the crutch question, but it had been demonstrated that under this scheme voluntary contributions would be expected to a fairly large extent, and therefore they could not expect commanding officers of units to be appointed to that position through efficiency alone; the power of their purse and the question of seniority would play important parts. If the selection of the commanding officers of the Territorial units was to be by qualification alone, the Regular adjutants might be allowed to go, but not other wise. They really must have some assurance from His Majesty's Government that the great bulk of these men were going to be Regular soldiers. They had no such assurance now, because Lord Lucas had practically admitted that after a short time there would be no Regular officers. He was sure every Volunteer ' officer would regard that with great concern. It had been stated that there was some idea of employing senior Militia officers in this capacity. There was a certain jealousy between Volunteer and Militia officers, and he knew that the Volunteers would be very much opposed o the idea of Militia officers, who, after all, were only Volunteer officers and had not received much more training, being appointed to these posts. Then there was the question of numbers. They had not got such a number of officers in the Regular Army as would make it likely

  835
  that the Government would strain a point in order to keep these Regular officers going, for there was at present a shortage of 4,139. All the Amendments that had been made to this Bill in their Lordships' House had been designed with the purpose of wholeheartedly backing up Mr. Haldane's scheme, and in resisting the Amendment now before the House their Lordships would be consistent in their efforts to promote efficiency.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREexpressed regret that the Government had given no indication of their view towards the far too liberal compromise, from their point of view, which had been offered by the noble Earl Lord Brownlow. He hoped they would hear something from the Government on that point, although, in his opinion, the compromise went a good deal further than their Lordships could with safety accept. He was not in the least frightened by the bogey of the General Staff. They were told that the General Staff were satisfied, and, therefore, their Lordships ought to be satisfied; but, personally, though no one had a higher respect for the General Staff than he had, he thought it would be safer to be guided by the advice of experienced Volunteer officers. At all events, he thought their Lordships should hesitate before they cast aside their practically unanimous advice in favour of the dictum that the General Staff were satisfied. He presumed that they might take it that Lord Lucas spoke the mind of the War Office on the point of the staff sergeants, that it was not the intention of the Government to substitute Volunteer staff sergeants. There was no intention of making this change at present, for the new system of training was experimental. But when the change was made it would be one of a far-reaching and most important character. Was it not right, in these circumstances, that Parliament should be consulted when that change was made? If their Lord ships insisted upon the Amendment remaining in the Bill they would in no way prejudice the Government of the day three or four years hence coming and saying, "We want to make this change now." Their Lordships would be able to judge of the case as it was presented to them then. The only authorisation for this change was that they must assume that the new scheme of training was to be a success. He was quite ready to admit that if the
  836
  system of training was an unqualified success they might be able to do away with the Regular adjutants. But it was very doubtful whether it would be a success. He did not himself trust the Government with this power. He thought their Lordships ought to keep the matter in their own hands until it was proved to their satisfaction that the new system of training was a success. He could not congratulate Lord Lucas on the strength of his argument that the staff sergeants could keep up the connection with the Regular Army.
  LORD LUCAS:said he did not mean that the staff sergeants would keep the connection, but the officers from the training battalions who would be in perpetual touch with the officers of the Territorial Force.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREthought the connection would be kept better by an officer attached permanently to the battalion, as would be the case with the Regular adjutant. No answer whatever had been given to the argument of Lord Salisbury that by this arrangement 390 officers' places were going to be lost to the Regular Army. When it was proved that under the new system of training the Territorial Army was more efficient they would be ready to discuss the matter, but they had at present no such guarantee, and he hoped their Lordships would hesitate before voting with the Under-Secretary in favour of this Amendment.
  THE EARL OF MOUNT-EDGCUMBEsaid that several noble Lords had spoken on behalf of the Yeomanry, but what was true of the Yeomanry was still more true of the Volunteers. He was quite sure that there were a great many Volunteer officers who were very efficient and had a good knowledge of drill and discipline, but the position of a colonel of Volunteers who had not one man with a knowledge of drill and discipline who could give his whole time to these matters would be a very ungrateful one.
  *EARL ROBERTS,speaking of his own experience, said he had never heard any commanding officer of Yeomanry, Volunteers, or Militia ask for anything but a Regular officer as adjutant. He sincerely hoped that this change would not be

  837
  allowed to be made. Considering the extraordinary number of officers that were needed, not less, as he had previously pointed out in this House, than 7,000 on mobilisation, including the requirements of India, he could not conceive any-thing more detrimental to the interests and position of the Army, especially in India, than to reduce the number of British officers.
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I am very anxious not to enter further than I can help into what I may call the purely technical side of this question. My own connection with the Auxiliary Force closed, I am sorry to say, some years ago, and when I was a member of it I think most Auxiliary corps leant more heavily on the crutch, both the colonel commanding and the other officers, than is the case at present. I am quite willing to admit that there has been a very marked and considerable change in that respect. At the same time I do not see how it can possibly be denied that the presence of a purely professional soldier as adjutant in any Territorial or Auxiliary battalion must do something in many cases to check the growth of the spirit of self-reliance among the officers. I am quite certain that that would not apply to the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. He, by common repute, is an exceedingly efficient officer, and from all I know of him I am quite certain that all the adjutants in England would not be able to interfere with him to any extent beyond which he wished that interference to go; but I think he has done what people are very apt to do, that is to argue somewhat too exclusively from his own experience. The noble Marquess said, "Why not institute your training battalions if you will, and keep your Regular adjutants still?" I take it there are two answers to that. In the first place, it would involve very considerable extra cost; and, secondly, in the opinion of the military advisers of my right hon. friend the Secretary of State, it would be difficult to define the relations as regards training, supposing the adjutant, was still to remain the training officer, between the adjutant and the training battalion. As regards what fell from other noble Lords, it seemed to be assumed that, when the Regular adjutant disappeared, no one was going to take his place. Nothing
  838
  was said by Lord Zouche or even by the noble and gallant Field Marshal who spoke last about the training battalions. This part of the scheme may be a bad or a good one, but it is not the abandonment of the old practice without the substitution of something in its place. I am afraid that the Government cannot accept Lord Brownlow's suggestion to insert the words "as far as possible," because it would not allow of the gradual substitution of Auxiliary officers in these posts if the system of training battalions succeeds. In order to make it clear that the operation is to be gradual, we would be quite willing to insert after the word "shall" the words "until otherwise decided by the Army Council." But on the whole question of the discussion of this Bill, I desire to make an appeal to noble Lords opposite. It does seem to me a most unusual thing that noble Lords, some of whom are very competent to speak on the merits of the new training scheme, but some of whom, like myself, are no more competent to express an opinion upon it than I am on a question of Chinese grammar, should yet be prepared to give a vote which would upset the carefully-planned and carefully thought-out scheme of those who at present are the military advisers of the Crown. My noble friend Lord Donough-more said he wanted to leave this to Parliament. I do not think that the Members of this House or the other House are the people who are competent to pronounce technical opinions of that kind. No one pretends that my right hon. friend the Secretary of State has not ascertained the opinions of those who are entitled, as many of your Lordships are, to speak for the Auxiliary Forces; and it is not a wise thing, in the course of a merely casual debate, almost to set aside and really interfere to a serious extent with a scheme at which the military advisers of the Crown have deliberately arrived, and for the success or failure of which His Majesty's Government must, of course, take the responsibility.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I had intended to suggest to the House that we might diminish the rigidity of the section as it now stands by adding after the word "shall" the words suggested by my noble friend Lord Brownlow, "so far as possible," or some words of the same description. Perhaps

  839
  a better formula would have been "except in special circumstances certified by the general officer commanding." But I gather from what has just fallen from the noble Earl who at this moment leads the House that His Majesty's Government are not prepared to accept any compromise of that kind. Let me assure the noble Earl that our desire is, as his desire no doubt is, to render this Territorial Force as efficient as possible, and we ask ourselves whether we are likely to render it more efficient by adhering to the old practice of taking adjutants and drill instructors from the Regular Army, or by relying upon the new race of adjutants and drill instructors who are to be the product of this new scheme of training, which, of course, has not yet come into existence. That it is really what we are asked to do. "We are asked to give up what we have got for something which we may or may not get as events develop. I was struck by the observation of my noble friend Lord Lucas, who, in reply, I think, to a suggestion from the bench behind me, said we might go on with Regular adjutants for a limited period of years. He expressed an anticipation of his own that it might be possible to continue them for a certain number of years, but he distinctly declined to give the House any pledge upon the subject.
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: What I think my noble friend said, or at any rate intended to convey, was that the existing state of things would last until it was proved to the satisfaction of the military authorities that the new scheme was succeeding.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: But he told the House that His Majesty's Government were not able to give a pledge.
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: That was for a fixed term of years.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Then I come to the suggestion which was made by the noble Earl the Lord President. He told us, I think, that His Majesty's Government were ready to
  840
  insert after the word "shall" the words "until otherwise decided by the Army Council." Now that does not quite satisfy the objection which we feel. We desire some more specific security than that, and if the noble Earl will allow the insertion of the words "until otherwise decided by Parliament" we should probably be able to come to terms with him. I desire, before I sit down, merely to add this observation. I have been greatly struck, as I think the House was greatly struck, by the main point in the argument of my noble friend Lord Salisbury, that by getting rid of these adjutants nearly 400 Regular officers will be lost to the Army. That seems to me a very serious matter indeed. The more we consider this question the more we must be impressed by the fact that the shortage in Regular officers is the greatest of all our military difficulties. It was said— and I do not think it was contradicted— that at this moment there was a shortage of something like 4,000 officers. This represents the difference between the strength and the establishment. That is a very serious matter, and the point has been enforced with all the weight which belongs to him by my noble and gallant friend Lord Roberts. Let us remember that for India this question of officers is a vital one. I had the honour of serving in India with the noble and gallant Field Marshal, and I well remember how often he used to impress upon me that with our great Native Army and with its comparatively small allowance of British officers it was absolutely necessary that we should have in reserve as many officers as possible. I believe I am right in saying that the number of officers commissioned every year is somewhere about 800. How many had we to commission at the outset of the South African war? In the first year of the war it was found necessary to commission somewhere about 4,000 British officers. In the face of those facts, I for one, view with the greatest reluctance and apprehension any proposal which will have the effect of diminishing by several hundreds the number of British officers on the establishment. I shall, therefore, vote against the proposal of the Undersecretary.
  On Question, "That the word 'shall' stand part of the clause," their Lordships

  CONTENTS.

  Norfolk, D. (E. Marshal.)

  Scarbrough, E.

  Desborough, L.

  Stradbroke, E.

  Digby, L.

  Argyll, D.

  Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

  Dunboyne, L.

  Bedford, D.

  Waldegrave, E. [Teller.]

  Ellenborough, L.

  Northumberland, D

  Westmeath, E.

  Elphinstone, L.

  Wellington, D.

  Faber, L.

  Churchill, V. [Teller.]

  Forester, L.

  Bath, M.

  Cross. V.

  Hindlip, L.

  Lansdowne. M.

  Falmouth, V.

  Hylton, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Halifax, V.

  Kenmare, L. (E. Kenmar.)

  Zetland, M.

  Hardinge, V.

  Kensington. L.

  Hill, V.

  Killanin, L.

  Albermarle, E.

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donough
  more.)

  Kilmarnock, L. (E. Erroll.)

  Bathurst, E.

  Kinnaird, L.

  Brownlow, E.

  Iveagh, V.

  Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

  Cathcart, E.

  Knutsford, V.

  Lawrence, L.

  Cawdor, E.

  Milner, V.

  Leigh, L.

  Clarendon, E.

  Portman, V.

  Lovat, L.

  Dartrey, E.

  Tredegar, V.

  Monk Bretton, L,

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch

  Muskerry, L.

  and Queensberry.)

  Abinger, L.

  Newton, L.

  Dundonald, E.

  Addington, L.

  Oriel, L. (V. Massereene.)

  Egerton. E.

  Ardilaun, L.

  Oranmore and Browne, L.

  Essex, E.

  Armstrong, L.

  Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

  Fitzwilliam, E.

  Atkinson, L.

  Ponsonby, L. (E.Bessborough.)

  Haddington, E.

  Avebury, L.

  Raglan. L.

  Halsbury. E.

  Balfour, L.

  Ranfurly, L. (E. Ranfurly.)

  Jersey, E.

  Balinhard, L. (E. Southesk.)

  Ravensworth, L.

  Lauderdale. E.

  Barrymore, L.

  Redesdale, L.

  Mar and Kellic, E.

  Blythswood, L.

  St. Levan, L.

  Mayo. E.

  Bowes, L. (E. Strathmore and
  Kinghorn.)

  Saltoun, L.

  Morley, E.

  Sanderson, L.

  Morton, E.

  Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.)

  Shute, L. (V. Barrington.)

  Mount Edgeumbe, E.

  Burton, L.

  Stalbridge, L.

  Orford, E.

  Carysfort, L. (E, Carysfort.)

  Sudley, L. (E.Arran.)

  Plymouth, E.

  Clinton, L.

  Tyrone, L. (M. Waterford.)

  Powis. E.

  Clonbrock, L.

  Wynford, L.

  Roberts, E.

  Colchester, L.

  Zouche of Haryngworth, L.

  Romney, E.

  De Mauley, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Loreburn, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Selby, V.

  Granard, L. (E. Granard.)

  [Teller.]

  Crewe, E. (L. President.)

  Aberdare. L.

  Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

  Allendale, L.

  Haversham, L.

  Abingdon, E.

  Armitstead, L.

  Headley, L.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Brassey, L.

  Joicey, L.

  Carrington. E.

  Burghclere, L.

  Lucas, L.

  Chesterfield, E.

  Castletown, L.

  Lyveden, L.

  Chichester, E.

  Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

  Nunburnholme, L.

  Craven, E.

  Denman. L. [Teller.]

  O'Hagan, L.

  Fortescue, E.

  Dunning, L. (L. Rollo.)

  Ribblesdale, L.

  Portsmouth, E.

  Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kin-
  cardine.)

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  Temple, E.

  Weardale, L.

  Eversley, L.

  Welby, L.

  Althorp, V. (L. Chamberlain.)

  Glantawe, L.

  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I now move to insert; after the word "shall" the following qualifying words which I read to the House just now, "except in special circumstances certified by the general officer commanding."
  divided— Contents, 108; Not-Contents, 38.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 7, line 18, after the word 'shall' to insert the words ' except in special circumstances certified by the general officer commanding.'"—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHaccepted the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF DUNDONALD,in Clause 7 (First appointments to lowest rank of officers of the Territorial Forces), moved an Amendment providing that such first appointments shall be given to persons recommended by the president of the association for the county "after consultation with the officer commanding the division, whom failing, the officer commanding the brigade to which the unit belongs." He maintained that these officers should be consulted with regard to any vacancy in the units under their command. If the patronage and all the responsibility with regard to appointments of officers were taken out of the hands of high commanders the force would not receive the enthusiastic support of the military element in filling the ranks of officers, and they would not get the right class of officers.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 8, line 23, after the word 'county' to insert the words 'after consultation with the officers commanding the brigade to which the unit belongs.' "—(The Earl of Dundonald.)
  *EARL ROBERTS: I support that Amendment.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH:reminded the House that the appointments with which this Amendment would have to deal were only first commissions, and the Government thought the Amendment was hardly necessary. The importance of consulting the officers suggested would be obvious if previous military training or experience were the question that had to be primarily considered; but, as he had pointed out, the appointments were first commissions, and the president of the Association, together with the officer commanding the unit whom he would normally and the Government supposed ordinarily consult, or would be in the habit of consulting, in view of their local knowledge would be in a perfectly sound position to decide upon the suitability of a candidate for a first commission. That being so, he hoped his noble friend would not consider it necessary to insert the words proposed.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE DUKE OF BEDFORDmoved to insert in Clause 8 a new subsection providing that the Territorial soldier should be warned before attestation that he might be asked to serve outside the United Kingdom in time of national emergency, and that his attestation paper should contain a certificate that the attesting officer had explained the same to the recruit. During the Committee stage he gathered it to be the intention of the Government to ask the Territorial Force in case of national emergency to serve abroad. Under these conditions it seemed to be only fair and right that the soldier of the Territorial Force should be warned that that request might be made of him, and the right and most convenient moment for that to be done was, he thought, when the Territorial soldier was attested.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 9, linel 4, after the word 'time' to insert the following new subsection: '(d) Shall be warned before attestation that he may be asked to serve outside the United Kingdom in time of national emergency, and his attestation paper shall contain a certificate that the attesting officer has explained the same to the recruit.— (The Duke of Bedford.)
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHthought the noble Duke was labouring under some misconception as regarded the necessity for a provision of the kind proposed. The Amendment suggested that a recruit for the Territorial Force should be warned before attestation that he might be asked to serve outside the United Kingdom in time of national emergency. It seemed to him to be most inexpedient to insert any such provision in the Bill, nor did it accurately represent what the position of a man in the Territorial Force would be. The Amendment seemed to imply that a man in the Territorial Force could be required to serve outside the United Kingdom. That was not the case. He could only be asked to volunteer to serve outside the United Kingdom, and Clause 12, Subsection (3), expressly provided that a man should not be compelled to make an offer to serve outside the United Kingdom except by his own consent, and that a commanding officer was not to certify any voluntary offer without having previously explained to the person making

  845
  the offer that it was to be purely voluntary on his part. The Bill as it stood met the objections which the noble Duke under a misconception appeared to think existed. In the opinion of the Government the attestation paper should contain nothing but the legal liabilities implied by attestation, and there was no legal liability in the case of the Territorial Force to serve abroad.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDthought the Amendment raised an important point which ought not to be lightly passed over. Was it to be understood— he would not say that no pressure was to be put upon a member of the Territorial Force, but that he was not to be asked, or incited, or induced to offer to serve abroad in time of national emergency? That was really the question, It had been felt to be a hardship by those who engaged merely to servo within the United Kingdom that, although technically and legally they were not bound to serve elsewhere, yet when emergency arose the question was put before them in such a manner that practically they could not refuse to serve abroad. That had been the case hitherto with the Militia. The Militiaman was attested to serve in this country, and yet whenever an important war broke out he had invariably been asked whether he would not serve abroad, and the matter had been put in such a way that the Militiaman had been unable to refuse without there being cast upon him a stigma which he naturally did not wish to bear. He (the Duke of Northumberland) had always felt that it was extremely unfair to gather men together upon one pretext, and then to put before them another proposal, which although legally they might refuse, morally they were bound to accept. The Government should do one of two things: either they should put distinctly in the Bill that no man was to be asked or induced in any way, unless he came forward perfectly voluntarily, to go on foreign service; or ii they did not like to do that— and he could see plenty of objections to it— they should tell him fairly that he was liable in time of emergency to be asked so to offer himself.
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: I am completely in accord with the noble Duke
  846
  who has just sat down as to the hardship of what may be called compulsory volunteering. It is clearly unfair and improper to range a number of men in line, calling on them as a body to volunteer, and asking those to fall out who do not wish to go abroad. That is an altogether improper kind of pressure to put upon men. But if the noble Duke will look at Clause 12 he will see that while Subsection (2) provides for the acceptance of the offer on the part of the Territorial Force, Subsection (3) attempts to deal with the difficulty which he has referred to, and I venture to think that the proper time to deal with the difficulty is when the offer is made and not at the time of attestation. It seems to me that the Amendment would have the opposite effect to that which the present state of things may be held to induce. If such a provision were inserted it would lead the recruit to suppose that it was exceedingly probable that he would be called upon to serve abroad.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: Is it not so?
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: I should have thought that the chances of an individual recruit in the Yeomanry or Volunteers having to serve abroad, taking the average of the last hundred years, was exceedingly slight. Therefore, the Amendment of the Duke of Bedford would, in my opinion, have the effect of making it seem probable that these men would be called upon to serve abroad. I confess that when I first saw the Amendment I could not help thinking that it seemed to be almost founded on the class of question that was put to the Chinamen when they were invited to go to South Africa; a series of explanations had to be made under the Ordinance, and I should be sorry to think that recruits in His Majesty's Auxiliary Forces were to be recruited in that manner.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid he hesitated to take part in the discussion after the dressing-down which he had been given by the noble Earl opposite, but he could assure him that his desire in joining in the debate was not to force himself upon the noble Earl as a colleague. That was one of the last things

  847
  he thought of doing. He thought, however, that the moving of the Amendment was amply justified. They had been afraid that it was the intention of the present authorities at the War Office to bring pressure to bear on the members of the Territorial Army in time of national emergency to join the Expeditionary Force. Their fears were partly grounded on a sentence in a memorandum on Army Reform which was presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for War on 30th July, 1906. In that document the right hon. Gentleman, when speaking of the desirability of improving the organisation of the Auxiliary Forces, said—
  "It is certain that if the mind of the nation is concentrated on the defence of its own interests, it will, if it is made possible for it by adequate preparation to do so, pour out in case of necessity very substantial numbers for the expansion as well as the support of the Expeditionary Army."
  He thought that sentence justified them in being nervous on the point, but the noble Earl, he would not say had given a pledge, but had expressed the opinion of the Government that they did not regard with favour the system of compulsory volunteering that had existed in the past. He hoped, therefore, the noble Duke would not feel it necessary to press his Amendment to a division.
  LORD RAGLANpointed out that the Subsection of Clause 12, on which the War Office appeared to rely to make all things perfectly clear to the intending recruit for the Territorial Army, was practically word for word the orders which had always been sent out whenever the Militia had been called upon to volunteer for foreign service. He would put it to His Majesty's Government whether it was not high time that they were honest with recruits. For a great number of years this country had obtained the bulk of its recruits by fraud — by pretending to get them by voluntary service but practically getting them by compulsion. He had always had a very strong feeling against that method of enlisting men for one special form of service and then asking them to volunteer for another which they had not contemplated at the time of enlistment. He hoped the Government, if they could not
  848
  see their way to accept the Amendment would at any rate insert words, or in some other way make it clear that a recruit at the time of his enlistment should thoroughly understand the obligations he was taking upon himself.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF FORTESCUEmoved to insert in Clause 16 a new subsection, the object of which, he explained, was to enable the Territorial Forces, if embodied, to be billeted otherwise than in public-houses. The present law of billeting dated from the time of the Petition of Rights and the days of Charles II., when it was considered necessary to protect citizens in their households from the brutal and licentious soldiery. Even a good many years after that Dr. Johnson spoke of the billeting of a Life Guardsman upon them as one of the greatest calamities that could befall a household. But things had changed a good deal since then; the character of the Army was very different, and the men of the Territorial Force would differ from the rest of the population only in the fact that they had a rather higher standard of self-sacrifice and patriotism. If the Force was embodied, there would be the proverbial three courses open to the Government of the clay. They could billet the men, as at present, in public-houses, or they could put them under canvas, or they might legislate in a hurry for power to billet them in private houses. The first course could be put aside. The numbers might be anything from 250,000 to 900,000, and it would not be easy to find room for such a number in public-houses even if public-houses were in the places where the men wore wanted. Then to put men under canvas and horses in the open in the winter months was to expose both to unnecessary hardship and to render a good many men and horses ineffective through sickness. The only alternative was to billet them in private houses, and if that course was likely to be forced upon the Government of the day when the time of emergency arose, it was surely better to provide for it in advance and give them time to make arrangements beforehand, because things that were done in a hurry were generally done badly.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 14, line 38, after the word 'force' to insert the following new subsection:— '(4) It shall be lawful when the Territorial Force or any part of it is embodied, to billet the officers, men, and horses belonging to it on other premises than those licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquors.' "—(Earl Fortescue.)
  LORD LOVATthought it was quite certain that great evils would occur if the men on embodiment were billeted in public-houses. The question would not arise in time of peace; it would be only during the excitement of war, when the value of the citizen soldier would go up a hundred-fold, and everybody was ready to provide him with either whiskey or beer according to whether he was in England or in Scotland. His own regiment had suffered under the calamity of having to be billeted in the town of Southampton for a few days, and he could assure the noble Earl that there was the greatest difficulty, not in preventing men getting at the drink, but in keeping civilians from giving them drink, especially when they were billeted in public-houses. When the liquor was served in the house where the men were actually staying it was practically an impossibility to keep them from it. As to putting the men under canvas, there were not sufficient tents in Great Britain at the present time to billet the whole of the men if they were called out. Therefore, the only alternative seemed to be to legislate in a hurry, in order that the men might be billeted in private houses. That being so, he thought the Amendment was a most reasonable one.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHhad no doubt there was a good deal to be said from the temperance point of view against soldiers being billeted in public-houses. He had known many cases in which they had been so billeted and there had been no intemperance or difficulty. It was quite impossible for the Government to accept the Amendment, which raised a very large constitutional question. It practically authorised the billeting of men of the Territorial Fort e in private houses, and that was a proposal which the Government could not accept on the Report stage of a Bill of this kind.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYagreed that the Amendment raised a very important point, and it might be that the noble Earl had not had sufficient time to consider all its bearings. It was a very remarkable condition of the law that they could only billet men in public-houses. It must undoubtedly lead to a very regrettable state of things where men were not of a class who were able to resist the kind of temptation which a public-house held out to them. He had had some little experience in the matter, because during recruit training of a Militia battalion which did not drill upon enlistment, but had preliminary drill, the men were very often lodged in or allocated to various public-houses, and it was not a good arrangement. But he felt the force of the noble Earl's objection, and if he would rather have a little time to reflect upon it he was sure his noble friend would not desire to press the Amendment at that stage.
  LORD RAGLANpointed out that the whole pivot on which the training of the Territorial Force would revolve was the six months on the outbreak of war. It was perfectly impossible for the Territorial Force or any considerable portion of it to receive anything like that period of training, as there was nowhere to put the men. The matter from the point of view of billeting was becoming worse every day. The number of public-houses was being largely decreased, and ideas as to cubic space and so forth, which nobody cared anything about a few years ago, had become very important. He remembered the time when the Militia in his county slept two in a bed and the men were crammed in as close as they could get the beds into the room. That sort of thing would not be permitted nowadays. He hoped the Government would give the matter their careful consideration.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope, in view of the history of billeting in this country, noble Lords will think twice before they endeavour to insert such a proposal as that contained in the Amendment, under which a military force might be compulsorily billeted in the private houses of the people of this country. In

  851
  view of the history of billeting and the significance of a proposal of this kind in the Bill under consideration, I hope your Lordships will pause before you accept the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE DUKE OF BEDFORDmoved a new subsection making it lawful for a Secretary of State to call out any portion of the Territorial Army to aid the civil power in the preservation of peace. He explained that he had understood from the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War that it would be possible for the soldiers of the Territorial Force to be used in aid of the civil power, but he could not find it anywhere stated in the Bill. It seemed to him to be a matter of great importance upon which there should be no doubt. Therefore, he moved the insertion of this subsection.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 14, line 38, after the word ' Force' to insert the following new subsection:— '(4) It shall be lawful for a Secretary of State at any time when occasion appears to require to call out any portion or any of the men belonging to the Territorial Army to aid the civil power in the preservation of peace.' "—(The Duke of Bedford.)
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHwas glad to have the opportunity of removing a misunderstanding which seemed to have arisen in regard to this matter. He did not know exactly how the wrong impression arose. All he knew was that several Questions were asked him from different parts of the House, and it was just possible that in replying to a double Question he might have given an affirmative reply in regard to this matter which he really meant to apply to another part of the Question. It never had been and it never could 1 e the intention of the Government to render the Territorial Force liable as a force— that was the point— to be called out in aid of the civil power. Their intention was that the force in this respect should be on exactly the same footing as the Volunteers. The expediency of employing not fully disciplined troops in the suppression of riot, which, of course, would result from this Amendment, was in the view of
  852
  the Government open to very grave doubt. If the Territorial Force ought to be used, or could be used, or if it was the intention of the Government themselves that it should be used for that purpose, it must in their opinion be made subject to military law whilst being so used. [A NOBLE LORD: Hear, hear!] But the Amendment of the noble Duke did not effect that. Moreover, if the men of the Territorial Force were to be called out for the suppression of riot, the duty of calling them out would from the very necessity of the case have to be entrusted to magistrates and not to the Secretary of State. That again was a power which he thought they ought to guard with extreme jealousy. The mischief might have been wrought long before the Secretary of State could be communicated with or his orders communicated to the members of the force. The Bill in making no provision with respect to this matter placed the Territorial Force in precisely the same position with respect to the suppression of riots as that in which the Volunteers were placed under the law as it now stood. Under the existing law the Volunteers, like any other citizens, could individually be called upon to aid the civil power in the suppression of riot, but they could not be used as a military body for that purpose unless possibly they happened at the time to be called out on active service or were otherwise subject to military law. The Government were firmly convinced that that was the only satisfactory course to pursue. For these reasons it was impossible to accept the Amendment.
  THE EARL OF SCARBROUGHreminded the noble Earl that the Yeomanry under present conditions were allowed to volunteer their services to aid the civil power if required, and he asked whether that liberty would be withdrawn from the cavalry of the Territorial Force.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I be allowed to say that every one is entitled to support the civil power? The position of a soldier is precisely the same as that of any other person in this country with regard to supporting the

  853
  civil power. If your Lordships desire to read an interesting statement of the law on that subject you will find it in the Report on the Featherstone riots.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD MONTAGU of BEAULIEUmoved an Amendment to Clause 22 providing that field officers of the Territorial Army should not be required to serve in the office of High Sheriff. He said that the matter was referred to on the Committee stage, and as the Government promised to look into the question, perhaps the Lord President could now state the decision they had arrived at.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 17, line 11, after the word 'jury' to insert the words 'and field officers of the Territorial Army shall not be required to serve in the office of high sheriff.' "— (Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: I am glad to be able to meet the noble Lord upon this point. He desires that field officers of the Territorial Army should not be required to serve in the office of High Sheriff. The Government are quite prepared to agree to that. Of course, the noble Lord understands that it only applies to officers of substantive rank who arc actually employed, and that honorary officers and officers of brevet rank are not included.
  LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I quite understand that.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHmoved an Amendment to Clause 27 providing that every such Order in Council as was therein referred to should be laid before both Houses of Parliament. He explained that Clause 36 appeared to apply only to Orders in Council required by this Act to be laid before Parliament, and during the Committee stage the Earl of Donough more suggested that as Parliament ought to have an opportunity of considering Orders in Council made under this clause, the insertion of these words was necessary, and a pledge was given in regard to the matter. In order to give effect to that
  854
  pledge, he now moved the insertion of these words.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 20, line 7, after the word 'Volunteers,' to insert the words, 'and every such Order in Council shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.' "—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHmoved to omit from Clause 28 the following paragraph:— "For continuing to any person or the holder of any office previously entitled thereto the right of recommending for first appointments or any other special privilege enjoyed as respects any unit dealt with by the Order." He explained that it was a technical matter, the object of the paragraph being to provide for the preservation of certain rights of the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports. As, however, the Militia under the new scheme would not be transferred to the Territorial Force the paragraph was no longer necessary and would only be misleading.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 21, line 20, to leave out Paragraph (f).— (The Earl of Portsmouth).
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHmoved to leave out from Subsection 4, which ran as follows: "Every Order in Council made under this section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after it is made," the words "as soon as may be after it is made." He explained that it was necessary that the words should be left out, inasmuch as Clause 36 specified the time within which Orders in Council were to be laid before Parliament.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 21, lines 29 and 30, to leave out the words 'as soon as may be after it is made.' "(The Earl of Portsmouth).
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE DUKE OF BEDFORDmoved to insert in Clause 29 the following new sub section:— "(1) The application of the provisions of Part III. of this Act to the

  855
  Militia shall be deferred for a period of two years." This Amendment, he said, embodied a suggestion which he ventured to make to His Majesty's Government during the Committee stage of the Bill, namely, to exempt the Militia from the operation of the Bill for a short period. He now suggested that the period in question should be two years. The object of his Amendment was to avoid the disadvantages which were inseparable from a simultaneous derangement of all the existing Auxiliary Forces at the same moment. The Amendment, if accepted, would leave the Militia system intact and would continue the Militia force as a military force in being, while the Territorial Army was in process of formation. Our Militia system had never failed the country in the hour of need, and it offered a sound and solid foundation for construction. At one time His Majesty's Government were rather inclined to build on that foundation, but they finally decided in favour of the Territorial Army. If that Territorial Army was to be the success which all their Lordships desired, it would certainly require the whole attention of the Army Council during the next few years. It was true that by a stroke of the pen they could change the name of the Volunteer Force into Territorial Army, but no feat of penmanship would enable them, first to fill, the ranks of that army with officers and men, and secondly, to create the County Associations save in imagination and on paper. The officers and men, the infantry and artillery, of the Territorial Army were to be derived in the first instance from the Volunteer forces. He would like to draw the attention of their Lordships to the present condition of the Volunteer Forces. In the last annual Return for the year 1906, the strength of the force— the number of men actually serving— was given at 255,854. The Territorial Army, excluding cavalry, would require 275,000, and for that number 9,528 officers would be required. There were at present, however, only 8,369 officers in the Volunteer Forces. Therefore, if every officer in the Volunteer Forces were to transfer to the Territorial Army, they would require 1,159 officers and 19,146 men to make up the establishment of the infantry and artillery for the Territorial Army.
  856
  That was by no means all, for out of the 255,854 Volunteers, 8,782 were returned as non-efficient. In 1905, a partial medical examination of the Volunteer Forces showed that 30,000 men were medically unfit for service. As there were some 30,000 men medically unfit for service, some 9,000 non-efficient, and also 19,000 deficient, they reached a total of 58,000 men who would be required to complete the establishment of the Territorial Army. He would remind their Lordships, however, that all the Volunteer officers and all the Volunteers now serving were not at all likely to transfer to the Territorial Army. He thought it was not making too big an estimate to say that about 25,000 men would drop out on transfer, so that they really arrived at a figure of 83,000 required for the Territorial Army. As there was a shortage of 1,159 officers in the Volunteers, even if all transferred, he thought they might assume that 1,500 officers and 83,000 men would be required to bring the existing Volunteer force up to the requirement of the Territorial Army. Was His Majesty's Government going to hold the Associations responsible for finding these officers and men? He quoted the figure of 25,000 men as being a probable number who would drop out on transfer, but as a matter of fact 15,698 had already gone since last year. He had asked his Majesty's Government if they could lay on the Table of the House a Return showing the strength of the Volunteers in the month of July. Unfortunately they were not able to do that, but they had supplied him with the strength for the month of April last, and the figures showed a decrease in numbers of 15,698. He would like to know if it was still impossible for the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War to say anything as to the strength of the Volunteer force during the present month. His own impression was that the returns must be in the War Office, and with the present Bill before the country he should have thought that those returns might have been rather interesting reading. He was quite sure that all connected with the County Associations would do their very best to make them a success, but all the same, if they had to start to make up 1,500 officers and 83,000 men it would be

  857
  a pretty hard task. It was not a thing which could be done in a few months, but it would take a few years. That His Majesty's Government should consider that these associations were capable of that achievement showed what a high opinion they had formed of the bodies to whom they proposed to delegate the responsibility. Perhaps, however, they were going a little too fast. These associations were not yet created. It would take some little time to create them and to start them with their work. In large and populous counties, such as Lancashire, Yorkshire, Midlothian, or Middlesex, it would be a matter of very great complexity. The War Office had no experience in dealing with county and borough councils, and any undue hustling of the local authorities might lead to friction which, if the scheme was to be a success, ought, if possible, to be carefully avoided. As regards the War Office itself, it would have plenty to do if it was efficiently to maintain the Army as it was to-day; but if there was to be added to that the formation of these associations and the creation of the Territorial Army, and in addition to that the recasting of the whole Militia, the task would be an overwhelming one and they would run a very great risk of failure. With regard to the Militia, he had put a large number of Questions to the representatives of His Majesty's Government in their Lordships' House during the last fortnight, and the absolute inability of His Majesty's Government to give the House any very satisfactory explanations or Answers had been seen. He was sure that the Army Council had not yet had time to consider the Militia and the special service section at all. He did not think they had any idea of how they were going to deal with it, and on that point alone he thought there was a, good plea for a little delay. But His Majesty's Government were organising, so far as he understood, for war at any moment and not for peace at any price. Should the calamity of war come upon us in the course of the next two years, when the associations were in a chaotic condition and when the Territorial Army was but a mere paper expression, if His Majesty's Government had left the Militia system intact, if they had left the Militia force in being, then at any rate the Militia could render them the
  858
  same service that it did during the South African War, when its numerical contribution to the purposes of the war was in excess of that made by the Yeomanry, the Volunteers, and the over-seas contingents together. On the point of the promptitude with which the Militia could he utilised for foreign service, he would remind their Lordships that the South African War began during the second week in October and before the last week in November the 3rd Loyal North Lancashire Regiment was on its way to Malta, whence it was sent on to South Africa. If His Majesty's Government put the Militia Force into the melting pot there must be a clear time when there would be no organisation, no officers, and no men. He anticipated that the objection on the part of His Majesty's Government to leaving the Militia as it was, would be that since the Militia were not now enlisted in exactly the form for foreign service which the War Office required the force was useless and ought to be removed. He submitted that there was no force whatsoever in that argument, because, if the calamity of war came upon us in the next two years, of course the men in the Militia would accept any special form of drafting which the circumstances of the moment demanded and was likely to add to the safety of the country. His Majesty's Government had got the men now: Why should they not leave them as they were? He admitted at once that if they could transfer the whole of the Militia by Army Order to the Army Reserve he would have nothing more to say. But that was precisely what His Majesty's Government could not do. To attempt to do it in a hurry, to force the men against their will into the Special Reserve would, he was sure, end in disaster. They would not get the men. He thought they would get the 20,000 boys, but they were no good for the purpose for which the Government wanted men— that was for foreign service. The War Office, he believed, would run the risk— as a matter of fact the thing was almost a certainty — of losing about 70,000 men. He thought that the Regular Army would suffer greatly from the formation of this special service branch. He found that in 1906 the waste from the Army was 46,414. The number of recruits

  859
  was 36,465 only, and of those 12,409 came from the Militia. The proposal now was to give all the Militiamen £2 to transfer to the Special Reserve, and then they were not to join the colours for the space of one year. If that had been done in 1906 His Majesty's Government would have had the waste from the Army of 46,414 men, and an intake of only 24,056 men, showing a deficit of 23,000 recruits, because they would have got no recruits at all from the Militia. This would really be the case next year if His Majesty's Government formed this Special Reserve; and if a deficiency of 23,000 recruits did not upset the Regular Army, he did not know what would do. It was known that many of the Militia would be averse to accepting precisely the same forms of service which they found pressed hardly on them— and in their opinion unfairly— during the South African War, and which he feared, in too many cases, proved their ruin when they came back to civil life. In addition to that, there was the element of breaking faith with all the men in the Militia force. His Majesty's Government had a perfect right to discharge any man in the Militia, because he always enlisted for six years or for so long as his services were required; but it was a very different thing if His Majesty's Government took that power and used it to break the conditions of service of the men in the Militia. Last year certain experiments were conducted in regard to training in the Militia. He himself made a special appeal to the patriotism of his county and got a most satisfactory answer. A good lot of recruits were forthcoming, and all those men joined, as they believed, for six years under certain conditions as regarded enlistment, pay, and training. He himself had always considered that those conditions were just as much binding on the Government as they were on the men, but now it was found that the whole of those conditions were to be suddenly and violently changed. Men were to be asked to undertake conditions of service far more serious than they had ever contemplated, and for less remuneration. That was an object lesson which, he was afraid, the men would take to heart, and he feared that after it the men would be very shy in future of entering into any new contract of service. The Government
  860
  pinned their faith on the magic of the £2 bounty. He knew well the value of bounties from a recruiting point of view. But he hated the system, because in plain language it meant that they went with money in their hand to a man, in this case a poor man, and tempted him to accept conditions of service from which they know he would keep free, and, if he was the sole breadwinner of his family, ought to keep free, were it not for the bribe with which they tempted him under the name of bounty. His Majesty's Government had determined that they must organise on two lines instead of three. His suggestion was that they should wait until their first line was ready to take the place of their second line. It was not ready now and it could not be ready for several years. In the meantime they should leave their second line, their Militia organisation, as at present, and under the Militia Act of 1882, for a period of two years. During those two years they should by all means enlist the Militia for foreign service or embodiment, but they should not deprive the men of that immunity from drafting which was theirs by Act of Parliament and to which they attached special importance. They should certainly during that period go on amalgamating those Militia battalions which they wanted to amalgama'e, and finally lead up to the solution of the problem of drafting individual men into the line in time of war. If they gave the Militia more control over their recruiting he was sure that the force would not melt away in the interval of two years, but it was absolutely essential that it should be left under the Act of 1882. In conclusion, this was what he understood: His Majesty's Government had reduced the Regular Army by 20,000 men, and 1,000 non-commissioned officers and several hundred officers. They proposed to destroy absolutely and entirely the whole-Militia system which had been so useful in the past. They might retain 20,000 boys at a cost of £40,000, but, even if they did, these boys would be of no use for the purpose for which men were wanted immediately, and His Majesty's Government would run the risk, amounting almost to a certainty, of losing 70,000 men. The whole situation was to be saved by the Territorial Army, which did

  861
  not yet exist, and for which he calculated His Majesty's Government would require about 1,500 officers and 83,000 men. These were to be supplied by the County Associations which were not yet created. The fact of the matter was there was a great deal of destruction in the scheme of His Majesty's Government, but the construction was excessively vague. Possibly their Lordships would remember a scene in Shakespeare's play, "King Henry IV.," representing a council of war held at Bangor to plan an invasion of England, The Welsh prince, Owen Glendower, was greatly pressed by his colleagues to reveal to them his military resources. He declined to do that, but military resources were no trouble to him, because he announced to the company that he could always summon spirits from the vasty deep. There was present, however, one Hotspur, who was not a very tractable man, and his reply was: "So can I, and so can any man, but will they come when you call them?" His Majesty's Government might summon territorial forces from the void, but would they come when called? His Majesty's Government were responsible that they should. They hoped they would, but whilst waiting he trusted that the Government would agree that they would do well to retain the Militia system of service intact and the Militia as a military force in being for the brief period of two years.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 21, at the beginning of line 33, to insert as a. new subsection, '(1) The application of the provisions of Part III. of this Act to the Militia shall be deferred for a period of two years.'"—(The Duke of Bedford.)
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEwished to associate himself with what the Duke of Bedford had said. He desired to express a hope that His Majesty's Government would see their way to come to an agreement of some sort with the proposal indicated in the Amendment of his noble friend, and defer changing the present status of the. Militia for a period of two years, by which time they would be able to know for certain whether or not the Territorial Army was going to come into being, and thereby give the country
  862
  the force required for home defence Further, they would then be in a better position to know whether the Militia were ready to transfer en bloc and undertake the new obligations. The proposal of his noble friend appeared to him, as it must do to many others, to be the only rational policy to adopt under the circumstances, for he very much doubted if there were any people, or, if any, very few, who really believed that this Territorial or speculative Force would ever develop into that fighting machine which the Secretary of State for War had foreshadowed. Nevertheless, they must not shut their eyes as to what had been done during the time that His Majesty's Government had been in power. What had been done? The Secretary of State for War had greatly reduced the artillery and had wiped off by a stroke of the pen many fine and efficient regiments, thereby considerably reducing the numbers of the Army Reserve. What he would like to know was, how did His Majesty's Government expect to make up this deficiency? It was apparently to be done by transferring that of the Militia battalions to the Special Reserve. To many people such a proposition as that would appear to be an easy solution of a difficult military problem, but he would like to ask whether anybody, be he a Militia commanding officer or a member of the Army Council, could say for certain that the Militia, officers and men, were prepared to undertake the new responsibilities which were demanded of them. As his noble friend Lord Salisbury very rightly said the other day, it was idle to suppose that the men of the Militia were going to undertake these responsibilities, and at the same time be put pecuniarily in a worse position than they had hitherto' occupied. Up to now they had received an annual bounty of £4 10S., and now it was proposed to pay them only £4. For this reason, if for no other, he ventured to think that the proposal as indicated in the Amendment of the noble Duke was a sound and statesmanlike one— far more judicious, in fact, than that of the Secretary for War, who, in his judgment, was taking a leap in the dark. The Undersecretary for War, when making his

  863
  statement with regard to the Militia the other day, and when relating the so-called concessions to the Militia, carefully avoided reference to the questions put to him by the noble Duke. The first of these questions was: How were His Majesty's Government, having abolished the Militia, in future to get from 15,000 to 20,000 recruits, which for many years past they had got from the Militia, to go into the Regular Army? As the noble Duke very aptly aid, unless the Government could show they had a certain solution for that puzzle this scheme must inevitably fail. He trusted, therefore, that the noble Earl, the Under-Secretary for War, would enlighten the House on these points, for it seemed to him it was impossible to discuss the scheme unless they had that information. There were other points on which they wanted information with regard to the Militia. They were told the other day by the Under-Secretary for War that owing to the recent decision of the Army Council the functions of the third and fourth battalions were to be analogous, but at the same time they were led to believe that the strength of the establishments would be considerably reduced. He would point out that at the present time they had not been told what the establishments of these battalions were to be. Many of them were strong in numbers at the present time, and if they were reduced they ought to know in what manner they were to be reduced to the normal establishment. The concessions proposed for the officers in the Militia, he must admit, were very reasonable, and he thought as regarded many of the commanding officers there was not at the present time any just cause of complaint. But here again the Militia officers required further information, for they had never been told what would be the order of precedence as regarded seniority of the officers of the first and second battalions. Also they had yet to learn what inducement was to be given to officers of the Line to serve in the third and fourth battalions, for they had yet to learn that the Army at the present time was over-officered. After what had been said it passed his comprehension to discover
  864
  where these officers from the Line battalions were to come from. He did not take part in the debate with regard to Line officers being adjutants to the Volunteer battalions, but he understood Lord Lucas to say it would not be necessary to have these Line officers because the Volunteers would be so well trained at their depots. It seemed to him, however, that in the case of a big county it would be impossible for those officers to look after all the Volunteer battalions, so that he did not see that there was any argument in that as regarded the training battalions. If, however, the Government did not see their way to agree with the noble Duke's Amendment, which was to give them a further grace of two years to tide over the transition period, which must be a period of military weakness to this country, it was absolutely essential that the functions of the Militia, both officers and men, should be more clearly defined than they were at the present time, for they wanted to know what the future really was to be. Whatever that future might be he would most urgently press the point that if the Line was to be dependent on the Militia in time of emergency it was essential that the Militia should be thoroughly trained in musketry. The only way to do that was to give them careful musketry instruction during the recruit training. Then when a trained Militiaman went up for his annual course he must have proper musketry training such as he got now, which was six days' preliminary drill and six days' shooting. That was the only way in his opinion in which a man could get to know the shooting of his rifle. He trusted, therefore, the Army Council would pause before making this drastic change, and would give the Militia the same musketry course as they had at present. In his opinion, and in the opinion of many commanding officers, if they reduced that musketry to six days it would have a disastrous effect on the future efficiency of the Militia. There could be very little doubt that the great uncertainty of the future of the Militia had had a most discouraging effect for many years on that force, and, although people accused some of the Militia regiments of not being so efficient as they might

  865
  be, he was perfectly sure it was because they had not been properly treated. If better treatment were accorded them than in the past the Militia would readily agree to give loyal support to any scheme which His Majesty's Govern-might produce, provided it was not unduly rash, and that they were definitely told what their duties were to be.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONthought that nobody could doubt from the speeches to which they had listened that there was a genuine desire on that side of the House and on the part of Militia officers to make the scheme of His Majesty's Government a success. If he might venture to say so, he differed from some noble Lords who had spoken as if the provisions of the measure relating to the Territorial Army were the most important in the Bill. In his judgment, if the Army remained under the conditions proposed by the Bill, the Militia Force, and not the Territorial Army, was the pivot of the Bill. They had seen in recent years, and allusion had been made to it from the cross benches two or three times that night, a great change in the attitude of the country towards the Regular Army. It had been a matter of grave concern to those who, like himself, were responsible members of the late Government during a period of the South African war to see that the Regular Army had suffered so heavily as it had done owing to the operations of the last two years. The more he reflected on the manner in which the Army had decreased in strength— a decrease he would venture to tell their Lordships, with a full sense of responsibility, which would not enable His Majesty's Government to meet the demands in time of peace for drafts— the more he was concerned, the more concerned in fact must any man be who had given his mind to the problem, as to the condition of the force who were to replace the 20,000 or 30,000 troops. That force was not the Territorial Army, but the Militia Force. It could not be a Party question, it could not be merely a Militia question, as to whether or not they were going to obtain that which the Secretary of State for War desired and was requisite if he was to mobilise the Army at all in case of war. They had two
  866
  problems put before them. They had the original suggestion of the Government that the Militia should practically disappear and that a new force should be formed in its place. That he thought was happily abandoned in the House of Commons, and they had instead of it the proposal that the Militia cadres should be largely made the substratum of the new force. Then they had the proposal of the noble Duke, who spoke with great authority on this question, and who had pointed out that it was of importance that the Militiaman should agree to accept this new liability. What were they asking the Militiaman to do? He had heard and read so many speeches in the last few weeks in which it was held that some great concession had been made to the Militia in allowing them to engage for foreign service, in allowing them to go into the front line at all instead of putting them back to serve in the Territorial Army, as to make him wonder sometimes if the authorities at the War Office realised what they were asking these men to undertake. They were not asking every man in the Militia to turn out for a month's drill and then to be embodied to defend his own country, not forcing him to move from these shores unless he desired it, but they were asking him to go abroad on the outbreak of war, not even in all cases with his own officers. What were His Majesty's Government giving him for it? They gave the Army Reservist £9 a year to undertake to serve for four years after he had left the colours. If he took on after that they gave him £6 a year. But to the Militiaman, who was a man in regular employment, and very often married, who had to leave everything at the call of His Majesty's Government under the new régime, they offered £2 in one bonus paid down and nothing else for services which might cause him to spend two or three years on garrison duty under a tropical sun in India. So far from looking at it from the point of view of concessions to the Militia, he looked on it in the gravest apprehensions, lest from a nuance of feeling expressed in that House they should make a mistake, because once they put it in the minds of the Militia that the offer was not substantially good, the result would be that instead

  867
  of having 70,000 or 80,000 men, they might get but 10,000 or 12,000 men to perform the duty. That was why he urged His Majesty's Government most carefully to consider all the points which the noble Duke and the noble Viscount had put before them. From his own personal experience he believed that nothing at all could be done with the Militia except through the colonel and the other officers when they were embodied. He ventured to say that if His Majesty's Government wrote letters to the whole of the Militia tomorrow, asking them to undertake a certain liability, even if the offer was a first rate one, in a larger number of cases they would not get answers. The Militia were not under military law, and they were extremely suspicious. They would not be aware that they were practically to go as a body and with the officers in whom they had confidence and with the comrades whom they knew. He most seriously feared— and he was only repeating the views of men who had spent nearly all their lives in the Militia and some of whom were sitting behind him— that if His Majesty's Government took the steps of practically dissolving the present Militia after this training, and inviting the men to take this new liability without calling them together, they would lose a number of men whose services they would not be able to regain by any means. It was from that standpoint that he approached the Amendment of the noble Duke. His noble friend asked for two years. He (Viscount Midleton) agreed very much with what fell from Viscount Hardinge when he said that the Militia had suffered terribly—cruelly he would say, from the indecision of the last few years. Perhaps they had all had some share in causing that indecision, but, however it might have been brought about, he submitted to the noble Duke whether to keep that indecision going on for another two years would not practically be in itself a blow at the force, and whether he could not attain the end which they all had in view of obtaining from the Militia the largest possible number of men who were willing to serve in the front line of the Army on mobilisation without giving so long a moratorium as two years. A possible outlet had
  868
  occurred to his mind. Could not His Majesty's Government meet his noble friend on this question? Could they not say: "We recognise that we are not merely proposing to ask the special contingent to serve as a force in its own units and with its own traditions, but are proposing in addition to draw from the force the number of men whom we require to reinforce the line as far as possible in companies with their own officers"? That being so could not His Majesty's Government say, "We will deal with them in the first place in units"? He did not believe that the noble Duke's Amendment providing for a moratorium of two years would hamper the intentions of the Government in regard to the Bill in a single particular. It would not prevent the Secretary of State the day after the. Bill passed, setting to work to amalgamate Militia regiments which were too weak, or which for some other reason he desired to deal with as one battalion instead of two. It would not prevent the enlistment of men under the Bill for the special contingent with the new liabilities, and therefore it would not prevent the Secretary of State ceasing to recruit under the old conditions. All the Amendment did say was that, of the two points of view, the one of acting without regard to the Militia officers and without embodiment and the other of acting in concert with the Militia officers at the time of training as was suggested by the noble Duke, the latter, and as he thought, the more prudent, course should be adopted. Could not the Government, desiring to go forward, adopt the noble Duke's Amendment limiting the period of grace for the Militia to one training instead of to two as he had proposed? It might be that it was not necessary to put words into the Bill to that effect and that a Parliamentary undertaking might be given which would have the full force of anything that His Majesty's Government could put into the Bill. But His Majesty's Government should not run astray concerning the serious dilemma in which they would be involved by supposing that merely by giving the go-by to the advice of the Militia officers, they could obtain something which they would not otherwise be able to do. It was very

  869
  encouraging that when he (Viscount Midleton) had to endeavour to get the men of the Militia to give a service, the like of which no body of volunteers had been asked to render before, the response was extremely satisfactory. He was referring to the time when, after the first Militia regiments had volunteered for the Transvaal, when in fact they were near the end of the war, when the terms of the service were well understood, and when the long, dull, and wearisome life which the Militia had to lead in the Transvaal was well known, he had to induce twenty or thirty new regiments to go out at the end of 1901 to replace the first regiments. The Government; of the day had released a certain number of regiments which had been embodied and sent them back to their homes. The question arose at the War Office how they were to induce a certain number of the Militia regiments to volunteer. There were no two opinions either among the officers on the headquarters staff or among the Militia officers who were called in to help that if the Government of the day made appeals to any of these men without first embodying them, they would not be so successful as if they dealt with them in a mass and under the influence of their own officers. It was recognised that under such circumstances there would be no chance of persuading the men to take this great liability upon themselves, and for that reason he (Viscount Midleton) sanctioned the Commander-in-Chief's proposal to embody a number of Militia regiments in order to ask them whether they would undertake the liability, the understanding being that if they did not do so, they should be sent back to their homes. That course was only adopted with the object of dealing with the men under conditions which were likely to induce them to take a patriotic line. That was all that he urged on His Majesty's Government that night. Let them undertake that there should be no disturbance of the existing terms until after the next training had enabled the Militia officers to communicate with their own men, and proceed, as far as was necessary, with the formation of the special contingent outside the existing Militia. He assured His Majesty's Government that in advice which was offered them from
  870
  that side of the House, he and his noble friends had no desire to hamper the scheme.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHthought that before replying to the appeal made by his noble friend opposite he ought to explain why it was impossible for his Majesty's Government to accept the Amendment in the form in which it was proposed by the noble Duke. He could only endorse very strongly the spirit of the speech of Viscount Midleton, when he said he did not think that in any part of the House there was any desire or intention to act otherwise than in a friendly manner towards the Militia. At the same time, as he said when he moved the Second Reading of the Bill, the first and supreme duty of His Majesty's Government was their responsibility to the Army itself, and they could not possibly accept the Amendment of his noble friend because, practically, the effect of it would be, if it was to extend over a period of two years, that during that time they would have left upon their hands a large body of men— he would take them at their present strength of 90,000— for whom they really would not have any use at all. They could not be employed in the Territorial Force and they could not be employed in the special contingent. He wished it to be clearly understood that His Majesty's Government looked upon the formation of the special contingent as a matter of the most urgent, vital, and pressing importance. They intended to recruit for that contingent at once, and they considered that the contingent was absolutely necessary for the effectiveness of the expeditionary force. He said that because he wished to assure the noble Duke opposite and all who belonged to the Militia that if His Majesty's Government could have done so they would most willingly have accepted the Amendment in the form in which it was proposed. He had now to deal with the suggestion made to him by his noble friend Viscount Midleton, who had asked whether it would not be possible that His Majesty's Government should give their Lordships a Parliamentary undertaking that the existing Militia infantry and engineers should have a moratorium of a year; that was to say, that they should remain in their present position until after

  871
  next summer. If he had to consider any proposal of that kind seriously, he should only do so on the distinct and definite understanding that the noble Duke and all those who acted with him were really anxious to assist the Government in their scheme, and all they asked was that they should have an opportunity of explaining matters and of being brought into touch with their own men. He was bound to say that the noble Lord had given a definite assurance that he and those who acted with him were really anxious to make the scheme a success. He wanted to be assured that if a moratorium was granted it would not be used in an obstructive way, but with a genuine intention of explaining to their men the new conditions of service. If the Government were to give an undertaking on this matter, it must be on the understanding that this proposal of a moratorium only applied to the 101 battalions which they proposed to transfer to the special contingent. It must also be clearly understood that if an undertaking was given his noble friend would withdraw his Amendment. He was prepared, if it once and for all would settle the position of matters and would be accepted by noble Lords opposite in the spirit in which it was made, to give a Parliamentary undertaking that, in order to enable the Militia commanding officers to explain more fully to their officers and men the new conditions of service in the special contingent, the existing Militia should not be asked to transfer until after the Militia training next summer. It must be clearly understood that recruiting for the Militia would be stopped as soon as the Bill was passed, and that recruits after that date would only be enlisted into the special contingent, which must be started, from the supreme exigencies of our military policy, as soon as the Bill became law.
  *VISCOUNT MIDLETON: Will the recruits of the special contingent drill with the Militia?
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he was afraid he should not like to give an answer on that point offhand. That was a question of administration and it would have to be considered hereafter. He wished to point out to the noble Duke that if he pressed his Amendment,
  872
  in all human probability the effect of it upon the Militia Force would be very unsatisfactory, because, as Viscount Midleton had pointed out, it would again leave the whole position of that force in a very unsettled condition. The Militia, in fact, would still be in a state of unrest as to what its duties were to be. He would also remind the noble Duke that if the Amendment were pressed, the War Office would be placed in an extremely difficult position, for they would have thrown upon their hands a large body of men whom they could not utilise in their scheme and the Militia and the special contingent would then exist concurrently. Financial considerations must inevitably prohibit the maintenance of these two forces simultaneously, and under those conditions there could be no possible doubt that the Army Council would decide to foster the special contingent. If the Amendment were pressed, it would probably be found impossible to give the Militia their annual training, and their recruiting would probably also have to be stopped, as leaving it open would only diminish the supply of recruits for the special contingent. As to the bonus, he still thought, although there might be objections on social grounds to the whole principle of bonuses, if the Amendment was pressed, it was extremely probable that the Army Council would find it necessary to invite Militiamen to accept the £2 bonus to transfer to the special contingent. There was another point. The concessions made during the passage of the Bill through Parliament in order to make the transfer of the Militia to the special contingent more in accordance with their traditional feelings were made on the distinct understanding that the Militia would transfer and become the nucleus of the special contingent. But if this was to be postponed for two years that would not happen.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not know whether the noble Earl means to say there was any understanding as far as we, who sit on these benches, are concerned?
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he only meant an understanding in the minds of His Majesty's Government.

  873
  He was not aware that there had been any understanding with the Front Bench opposite, but there had been a distinct understanding on the part of His Majesty's Government. As a matter of fact, His Majesty's Government could not have done what they had done unless they had understood that they would have the Militia. If they were to take this suggested period of two years it was almost certain that the Militia would be very largely depleted, because they would have in existence the third battalions of infantry, which they would have to raise for the special contingent, and training brigades of artillery with their own cadres;and Militia officers would, under those circumstances, hardly expect the same consideration as was now allowed to them. If he accepted the suggestion of his noble friend Viscount Midleton, he did so in all good faith and on the understanding which he had mentioned that it was to allow Militia commanding officers time to explain to their men the new conditions of service. Further it must boon the understanding that His Majesty's Government could honourably rely on the assistance of noble Lords opposite who were in command of Militia battalions to help them in meeting the difficulties which always beset any great change.
  EARL BATHURSTsaid he was sorry to hear that the Under-Secretary of State for War could not accept the Amendment. He spoke as a Militia officer, and as a commanding officer of some years service. He hoped he had had some experience during that time. When it came to the suggestion made by the noble Viscount on the Front Opposition Bench that the two years should be reduced to one year he could not agree with him. So much was this the case, that he would rather the Amendment had referred to three years instead of two. It was quite obvious that any great reforms in the Army could not be carried out all at once. He thought the Secretary for War, when he first started on his scheme, believed that he would be able to draw up one large scheme and carry it through Parliament and make an enormous change in the Army and Reserve Forces. That was not so easy as it appeared. It
  874
  was a question of time. They could not make these great changes all at once, and he thought it would have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had had his scheme clearly in his head, and had set to work quietly to make these changes gradually. He thought it was for this reason that the noble Duke had proposed his Amendment, so that the changes intended in the Territorial Army might be carried out, but that in the case of any unforseen circumstances the country would still have the Militia force to fall back upon. The Militia had been taunted with the fact that they were short of numbers, and Mr. Haldane's Territorial Army scheme had already had a bad effect in that direction. He knew for certain that there were a great many men at the end of the spring training who refused to re-engage because, they did not know what was going to happen. They did not know whether they would form part of the Territorial Army, or whether they would be amalgamated in the third and fourth battalions. They did not like the uncertainty and so they refused to re-enlist. He believed the whole object of this Bill was to reduce the expenditure on the Auxiliary Forces, and he thought that was the whole object of the annual training being reduced from twenty-seven to fifteen days. He would like his noble friend opposite to put himself in the position of a commanding officer of Militia at the present time. They were told that these battalions wore to be trained for fifteen days, and that they were to do six days musketry, but it was rather uncertain now when the latter would be performed. It had been suggested that the six days should take place in some cases at the beginning and in other cases at the end of the training. In the fifteen days there must be two Sundays, and if there were added six days at the beginning of the training there would be another Sunday. Supposing some men turned up for musketry— and it was not easy to see when they were coming—at the beginning of the training, they would have only four days in which to do their musketry. The same thing applied to those men who stayed till the end of the training; they would have done fifteen days annual training, and they would have in addition

  875
  these six days for musketry. In those six days another Sunday came in, and a day must be taken off for the men to go home, so that only four days were left for musketry practice. They had heard in the last few years how very necessary it was that the musketry of our Army and Reserve Forces should be improved. How was its efficiency to be increased if only four days' practice were possible? If his noble friend opposite were a commanding officer of Militia how would he regard the point? Supposing he were a keen officer and wished to see his battalion increase in efficiency every year, he would at once see that under this scheme the efficiency would decline.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Is the noble Lord speaking to his own Amendment?
  EARL BATHURSTsaid he was speaking to the Amendment of the noble Duke, and for the reason that he hoped the Militia would be allowed to have two years grace and permitted to go on just the same as they had been doing in the past while the Territorial Army was brought into some kind of order. He was not content with the undertaking given by the Government that the Militia should be allowed one year's grace. He would like to see the undertaking which the noble Earl had proposed put in black and white in the Bill. Nothing less would satisfy him, and for that reason he begged to support the Amendment.
  *LORD ABINGERsupported the Amendment, and said he was glad to see that at all events the Under-Secretary for War had fully realised the object with which the proposal was put on the Paper, He thought it would be patent to all Militia officers both inside and outside the House that the object of the Amendment was to strengthen the hands of the Government. It had been put on the Paper in order that the why and wherefore of the changes that were to be brought about might be explained to the Militiamen. This was a question for the men and for the men themselves. He recollected that the noble Duke said a few days ago in Committee that the men would require to have the new
  876
  system of the special contingent explained to them. There were certain things in the Bill which had required some little explanation. They must remember that the Militiamen had not the advantage of the extremely lucid explanations of the Under-Secretary for War. They on that side of the House thought that these two years would go far to strengthen the hands of the Government in that it would allow time to explain to the Militiaman the conditions under which his service would be given in the future. Over the whole of the debate there had hung a sort of shadow and the shadow was that of the Army Council. The representatives of the Government had asked them several times, whether it was a question of the Militia, of the Volunteers, or a good many other things, to trust that splendid body of men the Army Council. All that the Opposition asked His Majesty's Government to do was to trust the Militia officers who were serving to-day. If they were given the opportunity they would explain the conditions to the men who were serving under them. If the Government stopped recruiting for the Militia and immediately brought in this special service contingent system the Militiaman would be suspicious, and the £2 bonus held out as a bait before his eyes would not tempt him to transfer. For this reason he supported the Amendment of the noble Duke as to the two years, believing that that was the minimum period which ought to be allowed.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War had just now stated that on behalf of the Government he had made concessions upon a certain understanding. He hoped the noble Earl would forgive him for having interrupted when he said that, because if he had not interrupted, many of their Lordships, he thought, would have supposed that there had been some understanding as between the two sides of the House that these concessions of His Majesty's Government were conditional upon a certain attitude on the part of themselves. The noble Earl frankly said at once that there was no such understanding. That was so, and he did not want to argue these matters conditionally. Their patriotism was not conditional.

  877
  He might tell the noble Earl that, the attitude which they would adopt did not depend in any degree on the attitude of His Majesty's Government. They would be patriotic, he hoped, whatever His Majesty's Government might do. In the same way he rather hoped that the concessions His Majesty's Government had given them had not been conditional. He had rather flattered himself that it was the strong force of their arguments which had convinced His Majesty's Government, and that they had arrived at the conclusion that the concessions had to be made not as a matter of bargain or of arrangement, but because the suggestions they put forward were at any rate in those particulars better than the suggestions which His Majesty's Government themselves had made. That was the point of view from which he approached the consideration of the present Amendment. There were two proposals before the House. There was the proposal made by his noble friend the Duke of Bedford in the Amendment upon the Paper, and there was the suggestion indicated by his noble friend Lord Midleton in the course of his speech. The main difference between these two proposals was the difference of time. The noble Duke proposed that the moratorium should be two years and his noble friend Lord Midleton proposed that it should be one year— that was to say until the end of the next training. If he could show that that was really the only difference between them surely there was an opportunity to come to an agreement, and he thought it was the only difference. Something had been said about recruiting for the special contingent and for the Militia during the next recruiting season. There was no difference between the proposal of his noble friend Viscount Midleton and the proposal of the noble Duke on that head, because there was nothing in the noble Duke's Amendment which affected recruiting one way or the other. The noble Duke had pro- posed that Part III. of the Bill should not apply to the Militia for two years. That would not prevent, even if they passed it exactly in the form in which the noble Duke had proposed it, the Government putting a stop to Militia recruiting and going on with special contingent recruiting. Similarly the proposal made by his
  878
  hon. friend Lord Midleton did not affect recruiting; it proposed only that so far as existing Militiamen were concerned there should be a moratorium until next year. So that in that respect so far as he had gone he had shown, he thought conclusively, that the only difference between the two proposals was a difference of time. There was, however, one other difference— the difference between having it on the face of the Bill, as it would be if the noble Duke's Amendment were passed, and of having it as an assurance from the Govern- ment, which would be the form it would take supposing the course suggested by Lord Midleton were followed. Was that a distinction which it was worth while spending much time about? He confessed he did not think it was. He did not understand why the Government objected to putting it into the Bill. He had always thought that if a thing was going to be done— he did not doubt the word of the Government on the matter— it should be done formally, and it could not be damaged by putting it on the face of the Bill. It appeared to him however that the Government, by giving an assurance across the Table of the House, would be absolutely pledged as men of honour. Really, the matter was not worth discussing one way or the other so long as they had a perfectly distinct assurance. Let them be perfectly precise as to what would be done supposing Lord Midleton's suggestion were adopted and they received an assurance from the Government that they would carry it out. He understood that supposing that course were adopted the Under-Secretary for War was prepared to say that it should be applied to the 101 battalions. That was very good. To be quite precise, the noble Earl said something about the balance of the Militia battalions', and that it was not to apply to them. He thought that was a mistake. He thought it should apply to them. By all means let the Government, if they wished, amalgamate the weak battalions with the strong as they proposed to do. There was nothing to prevent them from doing that, but there was no reason in the world why a distinction in this respect should be made between men now belonging to the 101 battalions and men belonging to the balance of the battalions. They ought to be treated on the same footing and not to be

  879
  destroyed until after the next training. There was one other little point on which he was not quite clear. What latitude did the Government take with regard to the men who would be enlisted in the special contingent? The obvious plan was that these men enlisted for the special contingent during the next recruiting season should be attached to the Militia battalions which would be still in being, and should be trained with them until the final moment arrived when the Act came into full force. When the point as to the two years was cleared up they would at any rate have a precise statement on which they could act. There remained this question which did not appear to matter very much: either this arrangement was to be on the face of the Bill or an assurance was to be given by the Government. It was worth this one observation: if they got an assurance from the Government now it could never be retired from; it was absolutely binding. If, however, they placed it on the face of the Bill and the Bill went back to the House of Commons, what would happen to it there it was not for him or anyone sitting with him to say. Whether that would have any effect on his noble friends in coming to a decision he could not say, but he had a rather strong opinion himself as to which would be the better course of the two.
  LORD RAGLANregretted that the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War had not seen his way to carry out a promise which he made on the Committee stage of the Bill, to furnish complete answers to many questions which were addressed to him. There were five or. six questions regarding which he wrote some time ago to the noble Earl, asking if he would be good enough to supply an explanation. As no explanation had yet come from him, the only conclusion he could come to was that the information was not to be found in the War Office.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: If the noble Lord refers to a private letter which he addressed to me, I am happy to tell him that I have answers to all the points which he mentioned and I will send them to him to-morrow.
  LORD RAGLANwas sorry that the noble Earl had not seen his way to
  880
  give the information before, as it might have shortened the debate. There was one point in particular on which he wished for an answer, namely, whether these new conditions had yet been put to any Militia battalion, and, if so, what response had been received in regard to them. He was informed that several Militia battalions had been communicated with on the subject, and perhaps the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War would be able to give the House some information on the point. There was another point to which he wished to draw attention. The noble Earl kept on saying that they had Militiamen whom they could not utilise in any war. He (Lord Raglan) could only reflect on what an amazingly short memory the War Office had. The late Government were able to utilise about 100,000 Militia in the South African war. There was no use, therefore, in going about wringing their hands and asking what were they to do with 90,000 men. Whatever steps His Majesty's Government took, the Militia would be ready to volunteer for foreign service, if they were wanted. The noble Duke, the Duke of Bedford, and others of his noble friends, had explained very fully the extraordinary difficulty— almost the impossibility— of getting from individual Militiamen any answer regarding their willingness to accept the new conditions, unless they were called up for training. He thought it was easy to see why that should be the case. The average Militiaman was not ready with his pen, and to write a letter accepting or refusing conditions of service was a thing absolutely beyond his capabilities. Militiamen, and men of that class of life, were particularly cautious about putting their names to paper at all. They looked very much askance even when asked to sign their accounts. Therefore, the notion that His Majesty's Government could write 90,000 letters and receive 90,000 beautifully written answers by return of post made one think that any person who suggested such a thing could have absolutely no idea of the class of men with whom they were dealing. There was one point that he wished to impress upon His Majesty's Government. It was a very serious thing to break faith with men, and faith had been broken

  881
  with a large body of Militia submarine miners. These men had been disbanded and the officers had been kept in the Army List as a kind of Engineer reserve. These men had no legal claim against the Government, but they certainly appeared to have the strongest possible moral claim. He had en-endeavoured to enlist some of these men in his own regiment, but they said, "No, thanks; we have had enough, of soldiering after the way in which we have been treated." That, in his opinion, was a very short-sighted way of dealing with men. Those who be longed to the recruiting class were not rapturously attached to the War Office. They were suspicious of changes, and to proceed to disband these men scattered over the coasts in the South of England at a time when it was important that they should not frighten off the recruit-giving class was not a wise thing to do. As regarded the bounty proposed to be given to Militiamen to induce them to transfer, he wished to urge the War Office to consider most carefully whether they could not see their way to alter it. His Majesty's Government were proposing to give men £2 to undertake this liability, and they proposed subsequently to take it away from them by instalments of 10s. a year. It was most extraordinary short-sightedness for the sake of 10s. a year to give a check throughout the recruiting class. If they deprived a man of the 10s. bounty when he thought he ought to get 30s. they would disgust the whole body of men. It was not a large amount, and he most earnestly impressed upon the War Office the vast importance of not altering a sum which the men had been used to for many years. It took a long time for the news of any improvement in the conditions of service, pecuniary or otherwise, to filter through to the recruit-giving class, and if His Majesty's Government altered these conditions for the worse, it would inevitably cause an immense falling off in recruiting. Coming to the noble Duke's Amendment, he could not say how strongly he felt the vast importance of the proposal. His Majesty's Government were going to put our entire military forces into the melting pot. Everybody believed with regard to the Yeomanry that the class
  882
  of men who joined would alter for the worse, and in all probability the number would be reduced. Nobody had much doubt that the same kind of thing must inevitably happen to the Volunteers, and at the same time His Majesty's Government were going fundamentally to change the principles on which the Militia force was based without giving the Militiamen themselves a fair opportunity of saying whether they would come into the scheme or not. The noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War had used an expression that night which if he had been brought up as a soldier he would not have done. The commanding officers of Militia battalions were asked by him to under take to use their best endeavours to get the men to embrace the new conditions of service. He would point out that as a Militiaman and a soldier, a commanding officer, however much he might approve or disapprove of a measure of this kind, if ordered to put its provisions into effect would feel bound to carry out his instructions as a duty. It was his duty to do what he was told, and he would undoubtedly do it. Militia commanding officers would explain to their men the advantages they would obtain and the liabilities they would be subject to under the new scheme, and he trusted that in some way they would be relieved from the difficulty of asking their men to undertake liabilities that they were not required to undertake themselves, as he looked on that duty with very great dread. These matters, however, affected him personally very little as his time was nearly up. He would complete his extended period of command next February, and he thought after thirty-two years of command in one regiment or another it was time he retired to make room for somebody else. He thought the War Office might take to heart the fact that the Royal Engineer officers, being intelligent men, had been willing to be persuaded by the Militia engineers that it was absolutely essential that the latter should go abroad in their own units and under their own officers. He trusted the War Office would realise that if they wanted Militiamen to transfer into this new force it would have to be done

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  in the way that had been suggested, and therefore the question of the transfer should be deferred until after the period of the next annual training. He ventured to suggest to his noble friend the Duke of Bedford that he should be satisfied with one year of grace, and that the House should receive from the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War a distinct undertaking that the conditions of the existing Militia force should in no way be changed until after the next training.
  EARL CAWDORthought they were not very far from a compromise on this important question, and that it might be settled without the necessity for a division. He could testify from nearly forty years service in the Militia to the grave difficulty of asking Militiamen to undertake any duty which they did not clearly under stand. That was a difficulty they wanted to avoid. Whether they avoid it by allowing one year or two years grace was to him a matter of absolute indifference so long as they did avoid it. The Under-Secretary for War had told them that if the Government agreed to give them one year's grace they would still be obliged, because of the necessities of the service, to stop Militia recruiting, and at once begin recruiting for the special contingent. He did not question that that might be necessary, but assuming that to be the view of the Army Council could the noble Earl tell them where would those recruits be trained? Were they to be dissevered from their Militia units, or were they to be trained with those units during the next period of training? He would also like to know whether the noble Earl could give them any assurance that during the year's grace there would be no disturbance of the men of the Militia units other than those included in the 101 battalions which had been referred to. Those were two points to which those who had studied the subject attached a good deal of weight, and he thought if they could be cleared up the way would be paved for an amicable settlement. What they really wanted to secure was that time should be allowed for Militia men to have explained to them exactly the terms and conditions of service which
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  it was proposed to impose upon them. He would suggest that one year was sufficient for that, and if they could get an assurance from His Majesty's Government that one year would be allowed he would venture to counsel his noble friends that they had better be satisfied with that rather than strive after two years and perhaps get nothing.
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: I think the House will have been impressed by the very reasonable manner in which the plea for some delay has been urged by the speakers on the other side of the House. It is no doubt perfectly true that it is desirable to have a certain moratorium in order that commanding officers and officers generally may be able to explain to their battalions the changes in the conditions of service contemplated under this Bill. Bearing that in mind we have been glad to endeavour to meet the views expressed by Viscount Midleton. It certainly did seem to us that explanation being the object, one training, as I think was granted by the noble Earl who has just spoken, ought to be sufficient for that purpose. If you cannot explain to the men and they do not understand and do not appreciate or do not agree with what is proposed in the course of one training you are not much more likely I am afraid to impress it on their minds in two. On that ground and with the natural desire we have to set the whole ultimate system starting on its wheels as soon as we can we greatly prefer the proposition of the noble Viscount to that of the noble Duke. I can quite believe after what fell from Lord Raglan and others that they might have preferred the original proposition, yet they would be willing— I will not say to compromise, because the noble Marquess dislikes the word—to come to a decision on those terms. As regards the two questions put to me by the noble Earl who has just sat down, he will understand that I cannot speak as an ex pert and therefore I am only able to give him a somewhat qualified answer—the kind of answer I am afraid which almost always must be given when the responsible Minister is not in the particular House where the answer has to be made. It is undoubtedly the case that it is desirable that the recruiting for the

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  special contingent should begin at once and that after the Bill becomes law there shall be no further recruiting for the Militia as such. As regards the question of training I conceive it to be the desire and intention of my right hon. friend that these men should be trained with the Militia and not apart from them. But I do not want to give an absolute pledge on that point, as noble Lords opposite will understand, because I am not in a position to know whether in some cases there might be military difficulties in doing so. I think however I may say that that is the object my right hon. friend has in view. As regards the other battalions, those not belonging to those battalions, the period of extension does not entirely apply, because these battalions are not going to form part of the special contingent and there is therefore not the same necessity for explaining the situation to them as there is in the case of the other battalions. I conceive therefore that such dispositions in the way of amalgamation as the War Office may desire to make will proceed at once without delay, and that the proceeding? which it has always been understood would take place in regard to these battalions would proceed as contemplated. Those battalions do not form part of the special contingent and therefore no alteration would take place in the original plan contemplated in regard to them.
  THE DUKE OF BEDFORD: Do I understand that His Majesty's Government are prepared to give us a distinct assurance that the provisions of Part III. of this Bill shall not apply to the Militia for a period of one year?
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Yes, until after the next training. That will be one year.
  THE DUKE OF BEDFORD: If that is so, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  EARL BATHURSTmoved to insert after the word "training" the words "which shall include musketry training." He said that he had put down the
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  Amendment with the object of trying to elicit from the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for War what it was proposed to do in regard to musketry in connection with the annual training of the special reserve. He would like to know if the noble Earl could tell them how the six days were to be occupied, how many rounds were to be fired, and whether he thought that the general efficiency in musketry could be kept up during that short time?
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 22, line 11, after the word 'training' to insert the words 'which shall include musketry training.' "—(Earl Bathurst.)
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the intention was that the Infantry special reserve would annually undergo a course of musketry, but no Amendment was necessary for that purpose, as the word "training" was, they were told, sufficiently wide to include musketry training. The objection he had to the Amendment of his noble friend was that the effect if it were inserted would be that every man of the special contingent who was called out for training would be obliged to undergo a course of musketry every year. The special contingent referred to in the clause would compise a large number of men such as Artillerymen, doctors, members of the Army Service Corps, and others to whom it was not intended to give annual musketry training. He hoped therefore that his noble friend would not press for the insertion of the words, because it would be rather ridiculous to apply it to that class of men, and the words as they stood in the Bill would be quite sufficient to cover the case.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYcould not help thinking his noble friend would be very much disappointed that the Under-Secretary for War had not availed himself of the opportunity to clear up some of the difficulties which surrounded this question. He wished to press two points on the Under-Secretary. He did not contest the objection which the noble Earl had taken to the verbal Amendment. It was quite true that they did not intend to teach all the doctors musketry every year, but that the

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  Infantry Militia, or what would correspond to the Militia, ought to have musketry training every year he did not entertain any doubt whatever. He under stood that His Majesty's Government went that length, and he earnestly hoped that they would think better of their plan of allowing only the very limited period of six days for musketry. Six days was always too short, and might be absolutely ridiculous. It was always too short as they knew from what happened in their own experience. They could not do the present Militia musketry under nine days, even if they violated the rules of the service; that was the shortest possible time that it could be done in. On the occasion of the last training of his regiment he took twelve days. Under the Government's scheme this special contingent was expected to be ready on the outbreak of war to fight in the first line, and he wished to know how it was that they could do that with less annual musketry training than was provided for the ordinary Militia man. Could not the Government see what an. absurd position they would be placed in as regards these men, supposing there were three or possibly six wet days during the musketry training—and there were wet days in England He assured the Government that they must embrace the full logic of the position, and if these were expected to be fit to fight immediately war broke out they must be thoroughly trained in the use of the rifle, the weapon with which they would have to fight. He knew it was said that they were going to have a long preliminary training, in the course of which they would learn musketry. He had nothing to say against a preliminary training of that kind, but—though in some respects it was better—it was not the same thing as an annual training. A long training was better because the men could reach a higher point of proficiency, but it was not the same as an annual training because in a long preliminary training they did not remind a man of the work he had done and refresh his memory each year, as in the case of an annual training. Supposing they enlisted a man for six years and gave him a thoroughly efficient preliminary training at the beginning: if he afterwards re-engaged for two
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  successive periods of four years, how much of the preliminary musketry training would be effective at the end of the four teen years unless in the meantime he had been properly kept up to date? He thought he had said enough to show the Government that the six days was an absurdity. The six days ought not to be separate from the annual training, but ought, on every ground of convenience which could be named, to be part of it. A great deal of time was occupied in the assembling of these forces, and if the Government intended to have musketry training separate from the annual training it would mean a waste of two days. If very bad weather prevailed during the musketry training and it was part of the annual training, time which would otherwise have been devoted to drill, would be absorbed by musketry training, which was the more important of the two. But if the men were only to have six days musketry training, no margin whatever was allowed. That margin, which in the interests of efficiency he believed to be a necessity, could only be got by merging the musketry training in the annual training. He earnestly hoped that His Majesty's Government would not be so unwise as to ignore the views of expert Militia officers as to how musketry training could best be given.
  LORD RAGLANsaid that in discussing this matter the question of expense should not be overlooked. It should be clear to everyone that if the musketry training and the annual training were continuous there would be only one journey on the part of the men to be paid for, whereas if the two trainings took place at different periods there would, of course, be two journeys to pay for. Another important point which His Majesty's Government should bear in mind was that a man should, as far as possible, be put through his musketry course by the officers and non-commissioned officers of his own company, under whom the best results were most likely to be achieved. It should also be remembered that an officer got a better knowledge of his men during musketry practice than in any other way. It was of the greatest importance to keep a man up to his annual musketry practice.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he could assure their Lordships that them matters which had been brought forward would be most carefully considered, but he was afraid he could not give any definite pledges on the points raised across the floor of the House.
  Amendment, by leave, with drawn.
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHmoved a new subsection which, he explained, was proposed to meet a point raised by the Marquess of Salisbury.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 22, line 25. after the word 'effect' to insert the following new subsection:—'(5) A special reservist who enlists into the Regular Forces shall upon such enlistment be deemed to be discharged from the Army Reserve.' "—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 24, line 9, to leave out the word 'Act. 1882,' and to insert the words 'Acts 1882 to 1906.' "—(The Karl of Portsmouth.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYmoved an Amendment to the proviso. He said that he had given the Government private notice of this Amendment and he understood that it would be accepted. At the present time it was left to the officer or man to indicate his objection to the transfer. It had occurred to him that the provision was hardly satisfactory, because it was not at all likely that many of the men would know what was going on at the time and would not be in a position to indicate whether they objected to the transfer or not. In his opinion the burden ought to be placed the other way. and there ought to be no transfer unless a man indicated his assent. He was glad to think that the Government also took that view.
  Amendment moved—
  "In line 11, to leave out the word 'if,' and to insert the word 'unless.' In line 12, to leave out the words from 'transfer' to the end of the line, and to insert the words ' indicates his consent to such transfer certified by the commanding officer."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I accept this Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment moved—
  "In line 13, after the word 'service' to insert the following new subsection: (3) All Orders in Council made under this station shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.' "—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  *VISCOUNT MIDLETONrecognised the importance of the step His Majesty's Government had taken in including all orders and schemes under the new Order in Council procedure in Clause 36. He thought when he (Viscount Midleton) spoke in Committee on this subject, the Lord President was under the impression that he proposed something new, but there were distinct precedents which he was able to quote to the House with the result that he thought the Lord President was afterwards aware of the facts. He wished entirely to guard himself from proposing that this should be a precedent generally for Acts of Parliament. The Army had been treated differently from almost any other service in that it had been governed by Acts of Parliament which could not up to the present as a rule be departed from in any way, except by Act of Parliament. The power of the Executive over the Army had been limited by that power of referring to Parliament. Therefore, it seemed reasonable when such very large powers were given to the Executive by this Bill that those powers should be subject to review by Parliament in the shape of Orders in Council. He had pressed His Majesty's Government to adopt that course, and he was glad that they had been good enough to agree to it. It was only due to them to say that there would be no endeavour on that side of the House to make this a general proviso in the case of other Acts of Parliament.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: The House may possibly remember that when I spoke for the Government on the Committee Stage I took rather strong exception to the form of the Amendment, and am afraid that I somewhat overstated the case in saying that it was unprecedented. It was, I find, not unprecedented, because the same thing occurs in three previous Acts of Parliament, all, however, relating to judicial matters; but it is unprecedented as regards ordinary Acts of

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  administration, The last occasion on which it was applied, I think, was more than thirty years ago, but at the same time I repeat that I did overstate the case in saying that there was no precedent for it. We are quite willing to admit that the case of the Army may also stand on a somewhat different footing from ordinary methods of administration. As the noble Viscount has said, Parliament has always looked with a certain amount of jealousy upon the idea of giving excessive scope to the Executive in matters connected with the Army. I hope and trust it will be clearly under stood, and it ought to be placed on record, that this should not be regarded as any precedent for dealing with future Orders in Council. I am speaking quite as much on behalf of noble Lords opposite as on behalf of His Majesty's Government, because whenever they find their way back to these benches they would be of opinion as we are that the whole system of Orders in Council ought not to be treated as one in which the Orders are liable to be laid on the Table with a view to discussion and possible annulment when once passed. We are anxious to guard against it being supposed that Orders in Council, after having received the sanction of the Sovereign, ought as a rule to be the subject of discussion in Parliament. I am glad that we have come to a perfect agreement in the matter, and I quite recognise the reasonableness of the course which the noble Viscount has pursued.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to,
  Amendments moved—
  "In page 24, line 25, after the word 'council' to insert the words 'or scheme.' "
  "In page 24, line 31, to leave out the words' on which the said House shall have sat.'"
  ''In page 24, line 32, to leave out the words 'rule or order,' and to insert the words 'order or scheme.'"
  "In page 24, line 33, after the word 'order' to insert the words ' or scheme.' "—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  *THE EARL OF JERSEYmoved a new subsection which he said spoke for itself. He should perhaps explain that the Trophy Tax was a tax which had been levied in the City of London for the purpose of the Royal London Militia
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  Regiment. It had the good fortune of always being cheerfully paid as long as it was used for that particular purpose.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 25, line 29, after the word 'South-hampton' to insert the following new subsection: '(5) Nothing of this Act shall affect the raising and levying of the Trophy Tax as heretofore in the City of London, but the proceeds of the tax so levied may be applied by His Majesty's Commissioners of Lieutenancy for the City of London, if the Royal London Militia Battalion is reconstituted as a battalion of the Army Reserve, for any purposes connected with that battalion, and may also; if His Majesty's Commissioners of Lieutenancy for the City of London in their discretion see fit, be applied for the purposes of any of the powers and duties of the association of the City of London under this Act.' "
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid that he accepted the Amendment. On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Bill to be read 3a on Tuesday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 122.)

  LIMITED PARTNERSHIPS BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order) with the Amendments; and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  BRITISH NORTH AMERICA BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order) with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  House adjourned at ten minutes past Eleven o'clock, to Monday next, half-past Three o'clock.