Sitting of 25 February 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

KING'S SPEECH (ANSWER TO ADDRESS).
The Comptroller of the Household reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth—
"I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of
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your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present Session of Parliament."

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 62 COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. 62 has been complied with, viz.:—North Staffordshire Railway Bill; North-East London Railway Bill; Neath, Pontardawe, and Brynamman Railway Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.

  POST OFFICE SITES BILL (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 15th day of February, That, in the case of the following Bill, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Post Office Sites Bill.
  Hull and Barnsley Railway Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Maidstone Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Police and Sanitary Committee. Ordered, That the Committee of Selection do nominate a Committee, not exceeding twelve members, to be called the Police and Sanitary Committee, to whom shall be committed all Private Bills promoted by municipal and other local authorities by which it is proposed to create powers relating to police or sanitary regulations in conflict with, deviation from, or excess of the provisions of the general law.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders 150 and 173a apply to all such Bills.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
  Ordered, That four be the quorum of the Committee.
  Ordered, That if the Committee shall report to the Committee of Selection that any Clauses of any Bill referred to them (other than Clauses containing police and sanitary regulations) are such as, having regard to the terms of reference, it is not in their opinion necessary or advisable for them to deal with, the Committee of Selection shall there upon refer the Bill to a Select Committee who shall consider those Clauses and so much of the preamble of the Bill as relates thereto, and shall determine the expenditure (if any) to be authorised in respect of the parts of the Bill referred to them. That the Committee shall deal with the remaining Clauses of such Bill, and so much of the preamble as relates thereto, and shall determine the period and mode of repayment of any money authorised by the Select Committee to be borrowed and shall report the whole Bill to the House, stating in their Report what parts of the Bill have been considered by each Committee.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power, if they so determine, to sit as two Committees, and in that event to apportion the Bills referred to the Committee between the two Committees, each of which shall have the full powers of, and be subject to the instructions which apply to, the undivided Committee, and that four be the quorum of each of the two Committees.—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
  Portobello and Musselburgh Tramways (Port Seton Deviation) Order Confirmation Bill. Read the Third Time, and passed.

PETITIONS.

  BRITISH MUSEUM.
  Petition of Trustees of the British Museum, for grant in aid (King's Recom-
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  mendation signified); referred to the Committee of Supply.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ECCLESIASTICAL ASSESSMENTS (SCOTLAND).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 18th July, 1906; Mr. McCrae]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 45.]
  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons, under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, that they are of opinion that the Electric Supply Corporation Order, Part II. of the Aberdeen Corporation Order, and Clause 65 of the Dundee Corporation Order ought not to be dealt with by Provisional Order under that Act, and that the General Accident, Fire and Life Assurance Corporation (Limited) Order, the Royal Bank of Scotland Order, Clause 34 of the Leith Harbour and Docks Order, the Buckhaven Dock Order, the Glasgow Corporation Order, and the Renfrewshire Upper District (Eastwood and Mearns) Water Order ought to be dealt with by Private Bill and not by Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 46.]
  MINES AND QUARRIES (INUNDATION OF WATER AT CARADOG VALE COLLIERY).
  Copies presented, of Reports to the Secretary of State for the Home Department by Sir David Brynmor Jones, K.C., M.P., and F. A. Gray, one of His Majesty's Inspectors of Mines, on the circumstances attending an Inundation of Water which occurred at Caradog Vale Colliery on the 26th June, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  ARMY.
  Copy presented, of Memorandum or the Military Forces in the United

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  Kingdom [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  ARMY.
  Copy presented, of Approximate Estimate of the Cost of the Proposed Territorial Force [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL OPTION (COLONIES).
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 1st May, 1906; Mr. Leif Jones]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 47.]
  DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
  Accounts presented, for the year ended 21st December, 1906 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 48.]

  PAPERS LAID UPON THE TALBE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Friendly Societies, Workmen's Compensation Schemes, Industrial and Provident Societies, and Trade Unions, Reports of the Chief Registrar for the year ending 31st December, 1906 [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 49].
  Building Societies, Copy of Twelfth Annual Report by the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies of the Proceedings of the Registrars under the Building Societies Acts, etc. [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 50.]

  BRITISH MUSEUM.
  Account ordered, "of the income and expenditure of the British Museum (Special Trust Funds) for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1907; Return of the number of persons admitted to visit the Museum and the British Museum (Natural History) in each year from 1901 to 1906, both years inclusive; together with a statement of the progress made in the arrangement and description of the collections, and an account of objects added to them in the year 1906."—(Mr. Rothschild.)
  REVENUE (COLLECTION OF TAXES).
  Return ordered, "showing for each of the three Kingdoms (1)the amount charged for Income Tax, Land Tax, and Inhabited House Duty for the financial years 1905, 1906, and 1907; and (2) the amounts and percentage of the same collected in each country by the 31st day of January and the 28th day of February respectively in each of the said years (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 269, of Session 1906)."—(Mr. McCrae.)
  WINES IMPORTED.
  Return ordered, "showing the quantity of Wines, at the various degrees of strength, which were imported into the United Kingdom in 1906, from Spain, Portugal, Madeira, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, and other countries.'—(Sir Frederick Banbury.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Confirmation of Shop Closing Orders.
  Mr. MUNRO FERGUSON: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he can state what period of time is usually involved in the process of confirming or rejecting closing orders made by Town Councils under the Shop Hours Act, 1904.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) No general estimate can be given. The time required depends on the special circumstances of each case, the simplicity of the order, the amount of opposition, and the care with which the statutory regulations have been followed.

  Suppression of Atrocities in the Congo.
  SIR GEORGE KEKEWICH: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether any, and, if so, what, recent action has been taken by His Majesty's Government with a view to the

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  suppression of the atrocities in the Congo State.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Grey.) His Majesty's Government have held that a remedy for the existing state of things in the Congo would be found if Belgium exercised her rights with regard to the Congo State, and if it was transferred to Belgium on proper conditions. In view, therefore, of the negotiations now taking place in Belgium, we have abstained from taking any action which was likely to prejudice a favourable result.

  Agricultural Land in England and Wales.
  MR. ROGERS: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what is the total acreage of agricultural land in England and Wales, classified as holdings above 1 acre and not exceeding 5 acres, holdings above 5 acres and not exceeding 50 acres,

  Size of Holding.

  Number of Holdings in 1906.

  Proportion in each Class of Holding of Arable Land and Permanent Grass as in 1895.

  Arable Land.

  Permanent Grass.

  Per cent.

  Per cent.

  Above 1 and not exceeding 5 acres

  91,196

  25·4

  74·6

  Above 5 and not exceeding 50 acres

  197,730

  29·6

  70·4

  Above 50 and not exceeding 300 acres

  127,758

  44·8

  55·2

  Above 300 acres

  15,122

  54·2

  45·8

  Total

  431,806

  45·0

  55·0

  Imports of Beef and Mutton.
  MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what are the Returns of the imports into the United Kingdom of beef and mutton in hundredweights and their respective values for the years 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906, with
  holdings above 50 acres and not exceeding 300 acres, and holdings above 300 acres respectively; and whether the respective proportion in each class of arable and permanent grass can be given.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The total area returned as under crops and grass in England and Wales in 1906 was 27,393,716 acres, but the Returns do not show the proportion of arable land and permanent grass in the different classes of holdings in that year. The latest available information of that nature relates to the year 1895, and the following table shows the number of holdings of each class in 1906 and the proportions of arable and pasture in each class in 1895.
  Number of Agricultural Holdings in each of the under-mentioned Classes as returned upon the 4th June, 1906, in England and Wales, with the proportion in each Class of Arable Land and Permanent Grass in 1895.
  the average imports and values of the same for the years 1891–5, 1896–1900, and 1901–5; and will he give a like Return of the quantities of butter and flax imported in the same years, with averages of values for above periods.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The following table will give the information desired:—

  Quantities and values of Beef Mutton, Butter, and Flax imported into United Kingdom in each of the years 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906, with the Averages for the years 1891–1895, 1896–1900 and 1901–1905.

  Years.

  Beef.

  Mutton.

  Butter.

  Flax.

  Quantity.

  Value.

  Quantity.

  Value.

  Quantity.

  Value.

  Quantity.

  Value.

  Cwts.

  £

  Cwts.

  £

  Cwts.

  £

  Cwts.

  £

  1903

  4,805,913

  10,123,592

  4,065,776

  7,932,390

  4,060,694

  20,798,707

  1,894,020

  3,675,664

  1904

  5,051,253

  9,857,322

  3,530,659

  6,946,989

  4,241,005

  21,117,162

  1,498,340

  3,185,475

  1905

  5,778,357

  10,923,299

  3,841,180

  7,413,602

  4,147,866

  21,586,622

  1,801,960

  3,581,808

  1906

  5,986,793

  11,115,312

  4,137,132

  7,781,497

  4,338,383

  23,466,252

  1,747,300

  3,558,567

  Average of—

  1891–1895

  2,711,805

  5,599,502

  2,154,345

  4,100,120

  2,409,317

  12,802,379

  1,668,760

  2,765,772

  1896–1900

  3,929,014

  7,822,416

  3,346,586

  5,319,004

  3,246,608

  16,377,403

  1,847,560

  2,938,564

  1901–1905

  5,050,556

  10,245,550

  3,771,165

  7,236,135

  4,025,478

  20,665,316

  1,634,800

  3,291,467

  Note.—Beef includes fresh and salted beef and preserved otherwise than by salting.

  Mutton includes fresh and preserved mutton.

  Flax includes dressed and undressed flax and tow.

  Position of Senior Officers whose Regiments are Disbanded.
  COLONEL LONG: To ask the Secretary of State for War, whether, in the case of senior officers who, in consequence of the reduction of the battalions to which they belonged, and their present age, are in such a position that, whereas before the reduction they were practically certain of promotion, further service, and eventual retirement on higher grades of pension, they will now be retired much earlier, possibly at the age of forty-four, special arrangements can be made to enable them to have personal prospects somewhat equal to what they have lost by the reduction, or some special consideration shown them in the form of compensation or increased pension on compulsory retirement.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) As regards the majors of the disbanded battalions, it has been decided that they are to be considered for promotion to half-pay lieutenant-colonelcies at the precise date at which they would have been promoted had their battalions not been disbanded. In the case of captains,

  Colonial.

  Foreign.

  lbs.

  lbs.

  31st March, 1899 to 31st May, 1902 (Close of War)

  29,688,000

  31,598,000

  1st June, 1902, to 31st March, 1903

  —

  —

  1st April, 1903, to 31st March, 1904

  400,000

  1,237,500

  1st April, 1904, to 31st March, 1905

  52,000

  1,073,000

  1st April, 1905, to 31st March, 1906

  280,000

  1,544,048

  1st April, 1906, to date

  26,988

  2,135,733

  Repair of Burial Ground at Balinakill.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state whether any steps have yet been taken with a view to the repair and enlargement of the burial ground at Balinakill, in the parish of Uig, Island of Lewis.
  the names of officers whose promotion appears to be unduly retarded are brought forward from time to time as opportunities offer for extra-regimental promotion. As regards the lieutenant-colonels they will be granted retired pay at £420 a year four years after the date of their appointment to the command of one of the disbanded battalions, if not otherwise provided for. In the meantime every effort is being made to provide for them, and four have already been given appointments, two being transferred to the command of battalions in other regiments and two having been granted extra-regimental employment.

  Tinned Meat for the Army.
  MR. HUNT: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will give Returns showing the amount of tinned meat bought for the Army from Foreign Countries and from our own Colonies, respectively, for the last seven years.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The figures are as follows:—Preserved meat bought from 31st March, 1899, to date.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The district committee have petitioned the sheriff to have the burial ground at Balinakill closed by Order in Council. The case has been adjourned by the sheriff till the 17th May to allow of a new site being prepared. Sites have been selected, but have not yet been inspected by the local authority.

  Defective Water Supply to Schools in the Island of Lewis.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland, having regard to the fact that on the 25th June last the Secretary for Scotland stated that the water supply for eighteen schools in the Island of Lewis was defective, will he state whether it is to be understood that at that time water was not laid on to any of these schools; and will he name any of these schools to which water has now been laid on and the names of those schools which still have a defective supply.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) Improvements have been made at Bragar and Valtos. I am not aware whether those contemplated at Crowlista and Leumerava have been carried out. With this qualification the medical authorities are satisfied that there is no danger to health from the arrangements for supplying water to the schools, which are as good as circumstances permit.

  Ordnance Survey Assistants' Salaries.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can state, with reference to the Treasury letter of May 24th, 1883, authorising the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to raise the salary of eighteen civil assistants employed on the Ordnance Survey to a maximum rate of 21s., and three of these to a maximum of 25s. per diem, in view of the fact that nearly one-half of the total staff of the Ordnance Survey is at present employed in Ireland, why not one of the Board's assistants and others in charge of duties at the headquarters division at Dublin is in receipt of these maximum rates; whether he will consider the claims of these officials to any existing or future vacancies in the list of the eighteen assistants referred to in the Treasury letter; and whether he will cause such regulations to be issued as will ensure the maximum rate being attained within a reasonable period.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Treasury letter referred to authorises the payment of from 12s. to 21s. a day to not more than eighteen assistants, of
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  whom three may receive from 21s. to 25s a day, but it does not provide that all these assistants should be paid the maximum rates, and various rates of pay between the authorised limits are accordingly allowed in the case of the assistants in question. Two of them are stationed at Dublin, and full consideration will be given to the claims of the staff there when any vacancies in list occur.

  Irish Ordnance Survey.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can state what proportion of the item of £50,100 entered in Class I. of the Civil Service Estimates, under the service Publication of maps prepared and revised, is chargeable to the preparation of Irish maps, and how much of the amount is actually expended in Ireland; whether he can say how much of the amount of £82,200, entered against Completion of the re-survey of Ireland on the 25-inch scale, is expended in Ireland; and whether, with reference to the item of £10,350, under F. Stores, etc., he can state what is the amount under this service expended in Ireland.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) Of the £50,100 provided in the Survey Estimate for 1906–7 for the publication of maps, £8,000 approximately is for the preparation of Irish maps, and about half that amount is actually spent in Ireland. Of the £82,200 provided for the completion of the re-survey of Ireland on the 25-inch scale, about £68,000 is expended in Ireland. Of the sum of £10,350 provided under Sub-head F for Stores, etc., about £400 is spent in Ireland, the greater part of the expenditure being special stores, which are only obtainable from a limited number of contractors. I may add that the gross expenditure of the survey as a whole for the year 1905–6 is divisible as follows—

  £

  England

  104,590

  Scotland

  23,000

  Ireland

  95,880

  The expenditure in respect of Ireland was nearly 43 per cent. of the whole.

  Postmasters' Holidays.
  MR. HART-DAVIES: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will take into consideration the claim of local postmasters to a complete holiday on Christmas Day.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I regret that the exigencies of the public service will not admit of a complete holiday being given to postmasters on Christmas Day, but for work performed on that day a compensating holiday is allowed to them under certain conditions.

  Stoke Newington Sorting Office.
  MR. HART-DAVIES: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can see his way to converting the present sorting office at the corner of Brooke Road and High Street, Stoke Newington, into the general Stoke Newington post office; and whether his attention has been drawn to the inconvenient situation and inadequate accommodation at the present post office at 97, High Street, Stoke Newington.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) This matter is under consideration in connection with proposals for a rearrangement of the post office accommodation at Stoke Newington.

  S.s. "Moravia" and "Stag."
  MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the disappearance of the British steamers "Moravia" and "Stag," which vessels sailed from the port of Leith in the month of January, 1907; whether he can state if any alteration was made in the load lines of the "Moravia" and "Stag" during the last twelve months, and to what extent; and whether he will direct an inquiry to be held with regard to the loss of those two vessels with all hands.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) My attention has been called to the disappearance of the steamers "Moravia" and "Stag," and I have ordered a formal investigation to be held in each case. Pending the results of those inquiries I am not prepared to make any detailed statement in the matter.

  Shipbuilding Disputes on the Clyde and Tees.
  MR. TOULMIN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether the shipbuilding disputes on the Clyde and Tees affected the percentage of the unemployed in the last quarter of 1906; whether he can say to what degree; whether the number registered as unemployed in those districts included employees directly concerned in the disputes; and, if not, in what way the percentage was affected.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The percentage of unemployed members of trade unions published in the Board of Trade Labour Gazette in the last quarter of 1906 was of course affected by the disputes in the shipbuilding trades on the Clyde and Tees owing to the inclusion of a number of men whose employment, though not themselves on strike, was indirectly affected by the stoppage. Such men are properly included among the unemployed; but persons who are on strike or who have been locked out are not so included. It is not possible to estimate with any degree of accuracy the extent to which the percentage of unemployed was affected by the disputes referred to.

  Ballinakill Bay Oysters.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland if his attention has been drawn to the action brought against certain tenants in Ballinakill, county Galway, by Sergeant Elliott, of Letterfrack, in the said county, for taking oysters from Ballinakill Bay, which right they have enjoyed for seventeen years; whether he is aware that the case was dismissed but the Letterfrack bench of magistrates on the 18th instant; and whether, in view of this decision, the tenants will be allowed in future to exercise their rights to these oyster beds.
  (Answered by Mr. Cherry.) My attention has been called to the matter referred to. The question of granting a licence for an oyster bed at Ballinakill Bay is the subject of a pending appeal before the Privy Council. I have no information as to what rights, if any, the tenants may

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  have, but pending the decision of the appeal the police have been instructed not to take further action in the matter except to preserve the peace, should it be in any way endangered.

  Lough Erne Fisheries.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any arrangements have yet been made by which the Crown, as owner of the bed and soil of Lough Erne, would contribute towards the cost of the preservation of the fisheries in the Lough.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) My predecessor informed the hon. Member, on 27th November last,†that the Commissioners of Woods and Forests had asked the local Board of Conservators to put forward a definite proposal as to the Commissioners' co-operation in the protection of the fisheries in Lough Erne. No such proposal has as yet been received by the Commissioners.

  Ely Estate, County Fermanagh.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any agreement for the sale of the Ely estate, county Fermanagh, has yet been lodged with the Estates Commissioners; have the Estates Commissioners approached the owner of this large estate with a view to inducing him to sell the estate; and will he direct the attention of the Commissioners to the importance of so large a property being sold to the tenants.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am informed that no agreements for purchase in respect of this estate have yet been lodged with the Estates Commissioners, and the Commissioners are not aware that there have been such negotiations and differences as to terms of purchase as would bring the case within the terms of the Lord-Lieutenant's regulation regarding their action as conciliators. The Commissioners, however, are prepared to consider any application which may be made to them in the matter.
  †See (4) Debates, clxv.,1407.

  Irish Lights Board.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is intended to introduce this Session a measure to reconstitute and and reform the Irish Lights Board; and whether there is Governmental supervision respecting the acceptance of tenders for their supplies.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The constitution and administration of the Irish Lights Board, and of the other general lighthouse authorities, are at present under the consideration of a Royal Commission, pending whose Report I cannot say whether His Majesty's Government are likely to introduce a Bill dealing with this subject. The reply to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative.

  Evicted Tenants in Queen's County.
  MR. MEEHAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the total number of evicted tenants in Queen's County; how many have applied for reinstatement; how many cases have been considered and decided on; how many cases have been rejected; what is the total number reinstated; how many have been reinstated on their former holdings; what is the total cost of purchase of land, buildings, and free grants respectively; if any sales are being arranged with a view of restoring the remaining evicted tenants; how many farms from which tenants were evicted have been sold to the persons who got possession after the owners were evicted; and what is the acreage and amount of purchase money of these farms.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge as to the total number of evicted tenants in Queen's County. Two hundred and thirty-eight evicted tenants have applied to them for reinstatement in that county. The Commissioners have ruled on sixty-four applications; forty-two have been rejected, forty have been reinstated, and of these latter thirty-six have been placed in their former holdings. In twenty-one cases the holdings have been vested in

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  the purchaser, the purchase money being £22,243. Advances amounting to £2,230 have been made for improvements for buildings, and the Commissioners have given free grants amounting to £5,576 for buildings and £1,623 for live stock. The Commissioners have made offers of advances in six cases which up to the present have not been replied to. They have no information as to the number of evicted holdings which may be in the hands of other purchasers.

  Strokestown Tenants' Difficulties.
  MR. O'KELLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of James Farrell, tenant on the estate of Mrs. Sarah Flannery at Strokestown, county Roscommon; whether he is aware that Farrell, owing to temporary difficulties, was unable to pay interest on the purchase money of his farm pending the completion of the sale of the estate, that he subsequently offered to pay up arrears and had his offer refused, and that the Estates Commissioners now decline to allow him to complete the purchase; and whether he will ask the Commissioners to reconsider their decision in the case of this man who through loss of stock, was unable to keep to the lette of his contract.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) In this case the tenant's agreement to purchase was dated 30th April, 1904. The tenant paid the first half-year's interest up to 1st November, 1904, but nothing further. The Commissioners took proceedings to recover the interest, but a return of "no goods" was made. Eventually the tenant asked for further time, promising to make payment in June, 1906. When that time arrived, however, he informed the Commissioners that he was unable to pay, and the Commissioners, therefore, after giving him due notice, excluded his holding from the sale. The matter is entirely one for the decision of the Estates Commissioners.

  Captain Caldbeck's Ballacolla Estate.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can
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  say what progress has been made in the proposed sale of the estate of Captain Caldbeck Ballacolla, Queen's County, to the Estates Commissioners; whether the Commissioners have made an offer to Captain Caldbeck; and, if so, has the offer been accepted, and has the division of the untenanted land amongst a few large farmers and business men met with the Commissioners' approval.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell) The Estates Commissioners have communicated to the vendor the estimated price which they are prepared to give, and have also intimated that they would be prepared to make advances for the purchase of certain village holdings provided that the tenants should bring in certain additional sums in cash. The tenants have declined to bring in the amounts named by the Commissioners, but have offered lesser sums, and their offers are at present under consideration. Until the owner has agreed to sell, the Commissioners will not consider the question of the distribution of the untenanted land.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  His Majesty's Ships—Officers' Expenditure on Paint.
  MR. HART-DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any definite orders have yet been passed prohibiting officers from spending their own money on the painting and decoration of His Majesty's ships of war; and, if not, whether he will consider the desirability of passing orders to this effect.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): No definite orders have been issued on the subject, but as stated in the previous Answer given to the hon. Member on 12th November,†the Admiralty discourage the practice referred to as much as possible.
  In reply to a further Question,
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he thought the sum granted by the Admiralty was quite adequate for the purpose.
  †See (4) Debates, clxiv., 1031.

  Greenwich Observatory.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has received any communication from the London County Council with reference to the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the working of the London County Council generating station at Greenwich; whether the Council are willing to agree to the recommendations of the Committee, and especially to give the undertaking called for by paragraph C of those recommendations.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: It is understood that the Report is now under consideration by the London County Council. No official communication, however, as to the views of the Council on the Report has yet been received.

  Royal Visit to Devonport—The Admiralty and the Municipality.
  MR. WHITEHEAD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the friction between the Admiralty officials and the municipality of Devonport on the occasion of the recent visit of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales; and whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into the want of tact alleged to have been shown by the Admiralty officials.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the Admiralty greatly regret that any such friction should have arisen; but they do not see any reason for an inquiry to be made into the subject, or that any good would arise from one.

  German Fleet.
  MR. HUNT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that Germany will have, in a few months, sixteen or eighteen battleships ready for instant action, and as our Home Fleet must necessarily be a fleet in reserve, and therefore quite unable to be ready to meet a sudden attack, he will say what other battleships, besides the fourteen of the Channel fleet, will be instantly available to defend our shores.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: While deprecating most strongly the selection of one particular Power as the hypothetical enemy, I cannot admit the hon. Member's suggestion that the Home Fleet will be unable to meet a sudden attack.
  MR. HUNT: How can a fleet be said to be fully manned and instantly ready for sea when the crews are nucleus crews, some of whom are insufficiently trained and unused to their ships?
  MR. SPEAKER: That is a question for debate on the Navy Estimates.

  Paardeburg Medal.
  MR. WHITEHEAD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what are the conditions governing the granting of a bar for the battle of Paardeburg; and whether F. J. Brockett, late private G Company, 1st Battalion Highland Light Infantry, who was present at that battle in the Highland Brigade Small Arms Ammunition Reserve Column, is entitled to receive the bar.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,): The clasp Paardeburg was granted to all troops within 7,000 yards of General Cronje's final laager between midnight of the 17th and midnight of 26th February, 1900, and to all troops within 7,000 yards of Koodoe's Rand Drift between these dates. This man's name does not appear upon any of the rolls for this clasp, but an inquiry has been addressed to the officer under whom he states he served during that action, and the result will be notified direct to Private Brockett.

  New Cavalry Sword.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the deliberations with regard to the new pattern cavalry sword, which was under consideration on 23rd November, 1906, have been concluded; and, if so, with what result.
  MR. HALDANE: The Committee have recommended a pattern, and a number of swords are now being manufactured with a view to experimental trial by the troops.

  Duke of York's School.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Inter-Departmental Committee appointed in reference to the disposal of the site of the Duke of York's school have come to any, and, if so, what, decision.
  MR. HALDANE: No final decision has as yet been reached.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate how long it will be before a final decision is taken?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  New Bayonet.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the pattern of the new bayonet has been settled; and whether he can hold out any hope of bringing this matter to a a speedy settlement.
  MR. HALDANE: No decision has yet been arrived at. Patterns of new bayonets have been issued for trial by the troops and reports will be furnished on completion of the trials.

  Defences of London.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War when it is expected that some of the sites and buildings connected with the defences of London will be sold; and to what purposes will the proceeds of such sales be devoted.
  MR. HALDANE: It is expected that some of the sites and buildings will be sold at an early date. The proceeds of such sales will be taken in relief of Army expenditure.

  Indian Administration.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the system of combined magisterial and executive functions in the same official is one which was created by the British in India, or one inherited by them from their predecessors; whether, if the latter be the fact and this system has obtained from time immemorial, the Government will see fit not to press the
  1244
  Government of India to hasten to separate such functions, to the prejudice of the general taxpayer, who has made no complaint and knows of no other system; and whether the Government will allow the Government of India to take its own time before embarking upon the creation of large numbers of stipendiary magistrates at the expense of the masses for the benefit of certain classes.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. CHARLES HOBHOUSE, Bristol, E.): The practice of combining magisterial with executive functions existed in India before the establishment of British rule. It is certain that no alteration will be made in the existing system except after full consideration of the question by the Government of India.

  Indian Railway Rolling Stock.
  MR. ANNAN BRYCE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether there exists at present a serious deficiency in the amount of rolling stock on the Indian railways, whereby heavy losses are being entailed on native producers and traders, and the development of the resources of the country is being retarded; whether the amount of funds to be allocated to railway expenditure in the next ensuing financial year is to be reduced from fifteen crores to twelve crores; whether, if such reduction is made, it will apply both to equipment and construction; whether a reduction on equipment will increase the loss already being suffered by producers and traders; and whether a reduction on construction will involve waste of the force of the construction staff, loss of interest on the money already spent, and loss of profit from the delay in bringing the new lines to the productive stage.
  MR. HOBHOUSE: There is undoubtedly a deficiency of rolling stock on some of the Indian railways. The sum to be allocated for railways in 1907–8 is £8,000,000 (twelve crores) of which £2,787,000 is to be expended on the supply of rolling stock on open lines, as against £2,546,606 in 1906–7. There has therefore been an increase, and not a reduction, in the expenditure proposed under this head. I am, however, aware of the importance of this subject, and it

  1245
  is receiving consideration from which I anticipate effective results. The reduction in the estimate for construction cannot operate in the way suggested in the Question, except in the case of works already begun; and the Government of India will undoubtedly take stops to avoid such consequences as far as possible.

  The 10th Hussars.
  MR. ROSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can state the number of officers and men of the 10th Hussars admitted to hospital each month since they relieved the 9th Lancers in September 1906, at Rawul Pindi; whether the epidemic of fever was in any way occasioned through insanitary accommodation, and what steps he proposes to take to prevent a recurrence of the epidemic; and whether the Indian Government or the War Office are responsible for sanitation of troops stationed in India.
  MR. HOBHOUSE: The reply has not yet been received. Perhaps my hon. friend will repeat the Question in two or three days.
  MR. LEA: Was it not promised that the information should be cabled for?
  MR. HOBHOUSE: I have cabled for it, but it necessarily takes some time to get a reply, even by cable.

  Indian Supply and Transport Corps.
  MR. ANNAN BRYCE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that for some years after the formation of the Supply and Transport Corps in India difficulty was experienced in finding officers for it; whether the cadre was eventually filled by raising the scale of pay so as to attract regimental officers; whether it is now intended to reduce the scale of pay of officers in the corps; and whether, if this reduction is made, it is intended to apply the saving so effected towards an increase in the pay of either the heads of the corps at headquarters or regimental officers.
  MR. HOBHOUSE: Some years ago the pay of the junior officers of the Supply and Transport Corps was increased
  1246
  with a view to making the corps more attractive. No proposal for any reduction in pay has reached me.

  Justices of the Peace—Fees on Appointment.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Justices of the Peace newly appointed to borough benches have to pay a fee of £2 per head; whether such Justices of the Peace can qualify by paying a reduced fee of £1 in London; and whether, if the facts be as stated, there is any reason for such differenceand for any payment whatsoever in this connection.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I have no information as to what are the fees generally charged to Justices of the Peace newly appointed to borough benches. The fee authorised in London is £2. As to the reasons for charges in this connection, I may say that there is a fee of £1 payable to the Crown Office on the insertion of new names in a Commission of the Peace, and that there are other fees varying in amount according to the table of fees in force in the different jurisdictions and payable to the Clerk of the Peace for services rendered, e.g., administering the oaths, correspondence, etc. I have no initiative in the matter. My powers are limited to giving my approval, with or without amendment, of such new tables of fees as may be submitted to me.
  MR. REES: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into the matter, since many of the new magistrates have more merit than money?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid he thought it would be useful to obtain a Return of the scales of fees charged.

  Slate Clubs.
  MR. WHITEHEAD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the losses in connection with slate clubs; and whether he can introduce legislation to protect the funds of those who adopt this mode of insurance.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Slate clubs are usually small affairs, dividing at Christmas

  1247
  sums of from 20s. to 30s. They are not registered under any Act of Parliament; but could, if the members wished, be registered under the Friendly Societies Act. There are a few failures each year owing to defalcations; but this might be avoided without recourse to legislation if every person in charge of the funds were required by the members to give security in a good guarantee society. The premium might, if it were thought desirable, be paid by the club.

  Foreign Labour in Scottish Mines.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many aliens are at present employed in the mining and fire clay industries in Scotland; and how many were in the same employment in the year 1903.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Exact figures are not available, but the inspectors estimate roughly that the number of foreigners employed at the mines is from 1,000 to 1,500 in the West Scotland district, and in the East Scotland district about 500. At the beginning of 1904 the total number of foreigners employed in mines in Scotland was estimated at 1,600.
  MR. BYLES: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication of the number of British workers employed through the enterprise of alien employers?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I must have notice of that Question.

  Wall Paper Industry.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been directed to a recent official Report by Mr. Rufus Fleming, Consul of the United States at Edinburgh, in which, dealing with the question of importing American wall paper into this country, he states that for some years the wall paper industry of the United Kingdom has been in the hands of a trust which regulates production and controls prices, and which only permits wholesale dealers to import foreign wall paper on condition that it does not undersell the trust productions; whether he can confirm or deny the accuracy of this Report; and whether, if
  1248
  the Report is accurate, he will consider the advisability of taking steps to protect consumers.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE, Carnarvon Boroughs): I have seen the Report to which my hon. friend refers. The Wall Paper Manufacturers, Limited, inform me that they are not aware of any restrictions as to the prices at which imported wall papers may be sold.

  Baker Street and Waterloo Tube Railway.
  MR. T. DAVIES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, if his attention has been drawn to a fire that occurred on the Baker Street and Waterloo Tube Railway; and, having regard to the results that might attend a fire on an underground railway, where there is no possibility for any passengers who might be in the train to escape, whether he has directed an inquiry to be made; if not, will he do so; and whether he will also direct that immediate notification be sent to the London Fire Brigade by the company on whose line a fire may occur, so that its expert knowledge might be utilised in inquiries that might be made on any future fires on underground railways in London.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The accident referred to by my hon. friend occurred on the 13th instant and on the following day. The circumstances were carefully investigated by the Board's electrical adviser, whose observations are now before the Department. I shall be glad to show a copy to my hon. friend if he will call at the Board of Trade. I understand from the Report that the cars, being of steel, sustained no material damage, and that no personal injuries were caused. It is satisfactory to find that the Board's requirements, designed to provide against risks from fire on "tube" railways, appear to have been adequate in this case. As far as regards the provision at stations of hydrants, etc., the Board's requirements (of which I will furnish a copy to my hon. friend) were framed in concert with the London County Council, and the Board required the company to obtain, before the opening of the line was authorised, a certificate that the chief officer of the fire brigade was satisfied that the prescribed precautions had been duly given

  1249
  effect to. The concluding suggestion made by my hon. friend shall receive my consideration.

  Coal Exports.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if there has been any increase in the monthly export of coal from this country since the export duty was taken off.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The export duty on coal ceased to be levied on the 31st October last. In the three months which have elapsed since that date there has been an average monthly increase of about 600,000 tons in the export of coal as compared with the corresponding period a year ago. The period of three months, however, is too short to enable any useful comparison to be made.
  MR. FELL: Is the present increase in the price of coal attributable in any way to this state of affairs?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I am not competent to express an opinion on that point.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: Has not the increase in the exports been gradual and continuous for a long number of years?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I believe so.

  Waterford Railway Station Tolls.
  MR. POWER: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Great Southern and Western Railway Company now exact a toll of one penny per head from people visiting their platforms in the Waterford terminus, either for the purpose of seeing off or meeting friends travelling by the trains, and from tradespeople's messengers who are sent to deliver parcels to passengers: whether he is aware that, as Waterford trades people have to pay a bridge toll of two pence to send messengers to the trains with parcels, this additional charge becomes a heavy tax on their business; and whether he proposes to take any action to stop it.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I have communicated with the railway company in this matter, and am informed that it is
  1250
  the case that they make a charge of one penny for persons other than passengers going on to the platforms at Waterford, but that arrangements have been made for tradespeople's messengers to deliver their parcels outside the barrier at which the penny is charged. The charge made by the Bridge Commissioners for crossing the river, which is referred to in the latter part of the Question, is a matter over which the company do not appear to have any control. The Board of Trade have no statutory powers in the matter.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIENwas understood to ask if supposing an automatic machine were used for collecting the charge the right hon. Gentleman would insist on the tickets being issued by a clerk in order if an accident happened that the company might be held responsible.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: We have no control over that.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: We shall have control over the next Bill the Company promote.

  United States Duties on Imported Works of Art.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to state the result of the communications which have passed between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States with reference to the import duty levied in the United States upon British works of art, which is at the rate of 20 per cent. ad valorem, as compared with 15 per cent. charged upon works of art imported from other European countries.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Not yet; but if the hon. Member will speak to me on the subject behind the Speaker's Chair, I shall be glad to give him any further information in my power.

  Unemployment Returns.
  MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Returns of unemployment issued by the Board of Trade are compiled upon information representing not only real and enforced unemployment, but also every temporary

  1251
  and voluntary displacement of labour due to local strikes, lock-outs, seasonal unemployment, changes of employer, sickness, and similar causes; whether the method of compilation or accuracy of this information is in any way checked by the Board of Trade; and whether, in view of the fact that the figures in these Returns are sometimes quoted as representing enforced and involuntary unemployment alone, he will cause them, in future, to be accompanied by a note explaining their true character.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: As already explained in a reply given to the hon. Member for the Bury division of Lancashire,†the percentage of unemployed members of trade unions published in the Board of Trade Labour Gazette does not include persons on strike or locked out, sick or superannuated. The Returns, however, include quite properly persons who are out of work as a consequence of others being on strike or locked out, or owing to unfavourable weather or change of employment. The main basis of the Returns is the trade union record of the members receiving unemployed benefit, and their accuracy is readily checked by the financial statements of the trade unions as to the amount of benefit so paid. I shall be glad to consider the question of giving an explanatory note as to the figures in the Board of Trade Labour Gazette.
  MR. THORNE: Would it be possible to get the number of unemployed who do not belong to any union by a census such as they have in the United States?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: That is the only way that suggests itself to my mind at the moment.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of having a special column in the next census paper as is done in the United States?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: That is a matter for the President of the Local Government Board.
  †See Col. 1236.

  Lamb's Conduit Street Vaccination Station.
  MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to the report of Dr. Kelsch to the Academie de Medicine, Paris, two years ago, in which he records the fact that he saw an experiment being made at the vaccination station, Lamb's Conduit Street, to inoculate calves with the variolous matter of human smallpox, with a view to manufacturing so-called cow-pox virus out of the contents of the resulting sores; and whether he will give orders for the prosecution of any persons who may make such experiments.
  Notice had also been given of the following Questions:—
  MR. LUPTON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the report of Dr. Kelsch to the Paris Academie de Medicine two years ago, in which that scientist shows that Belgium was the only country in which cow-pox is now being used for the manufacture of vaccine lymph; whether Dr. Kelsch accurately reports that he had seen an experiment in progress in Lamb's Conduit Street to manufacture so-called vaccine lymph out of the variolous matter of human smallpox; and, if so, whether, in view of Section 32 of The Vaccination Act, 1867, he will order the prosecution of such of his subordinate officials as have thus infringed the law.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): Perhaps my hon. friend will allow me to answer this Question, and at the same time to reply to his second Question on the Paper. My attention has been called to the report of Dr. Kelsch, but I do not find that he stated that he had seen an experiment in progress at Lamb's Conduit Street to manufacture vaccine lymph out of the variolous matter of human smallpox. I understand him to say that he saw a calf at the stables covered with an eruption produced by inoculation of variolous virus after two passages through the monkey and two others through the calf. This description I am informed is correct. The result of the vaccination

  1253
  was not used, and never was intended to be used, for human vaccination. The operation was a test of the value of an experiment performed elsewhere in its bearing on the possible manufacture of lymph, and does not appear to have involved an infringement of the Cruelty to Animals Act. Section 32 of the Vaccination Act, 1867, to which my hon. friend refers, prohibits the inoculation of persons with smallpox. There was no contravention of the section in this case.

  Spotted Fever.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if, having regard to the recent importation of that dangerous alien disease known as spotted fever, and the rapidity with which it spreads, he will issue strict instructions for the inspection of all alien immigrant ships, and, following the precedent of 1892, at the time of the outbreak of cholera at Hamburg, direct that no suspected case be allowed to land under any pretext.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: Cerebro-spinal fever is not necessarily a disease imported from abroad, and at the present time I am not aware that there is any exceptional prevalence of it on the Continent. The circumstances in relation to this disease are different from those affecting an outbreak of cholera such as that referred to in the Question. As regards alien immigrants on immigrant ships which come within the Aliens Act, 1905 the hon. Member is aware that they are inspected under the Act, and that the Act requires that leave to land shall be withheld in the case of any such alien, if, owing to any disease, he appears likely to become a detriment to the public.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 150,000 aliens came from continental ports last year, and might have brought the epidemic?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Westminster City Council Finance.
  SIR ROBERT HOBART: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the interim report of Mr. A. Carson Roberts,
  1254
  district auditor of the metropolitan boroughs, upon certain contracts made by; the Council of the City of Westminster, containing grave charges against their inefficient administration during the last financial year; and whether he will cause an immediate searching inquiry to be made by his Department into a matter that so seriously concerns the ratepayers in the City of Westminster.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have seen the auditor's report. The jurisdiction of the Local Government Board in relation to the matters referred to in it would arise out of any appeal to them against the auditor's decision in respect of any allowance, disallowance, or surcharge in connection with them. I understand that the auditor has given notice to the members of the Council concerned to show cause why a surcharge should not be made in this case, but that the audit is not yet completed. I am, therefore, not at present in a position to interfere, but in the event of an appeal of the kind I have mentioned being made, I will give consideration to the suggestion in the Question.
  In reply to a further Question,
  MR. BURNSsaid he believed the hearing of the Council's case before the auditor would be taken on the following Wednesday.

  Public Health Acts.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in connection with the Public Health Bill, he will cause to be printed and circulated to hon. Members of this House so much of The Public Health Act, 1896, and the enactments mentioned in that Act, as will show what power of making regulations has been conferred by such Act and enactments.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: Yes, sir, I will take steps for this purpose.

  Infantile Mortality.
  MR. ROGERS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he intends to introduce any legislation this session dealing with the abnormally high death rate of children under five years of age;

  1255
  and what steps are being taken to direct the attention of local authorities to this matter.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am giving attention to this subject, and hope that it will be practicable during the present session to introduce legislation bearing upon it. I am impressing on local authorities and their officers, by circulars and otherwise, the importance of collecting data, and studying the problems connected with it.
  MR. LEIF JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the revelations made by Mr. G. R. Sims, consider the desirability of prohibiting the taking of young children into public houses?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am aware of revelations being made by Mr. Sims, but I am not in the habit of attaching too much importance to some of them.

  Tuberculosis.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, what action he proposes to take in carrying out the conclusions of the Royal Commission on Tuberculosis, seeing that not only the Commissioners but a large number of experts outside the Commission are agreed that far more stringent measures are required than those at present enforced to prevent the sale of such milk as contains tubercle bacilli.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am giving attention to the Report of the Royal Commission, but am not at present in a position to take action upon it. The Report has only recently been presented, and as yet the Appendices referred to in it have not been issued. The conclusions of the Commissioners relate to matters of much importance, and must be carefully considered by both the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture.

  Motor Car Bill.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board on what date he is likely to introduce the Bill dealing with motor cars.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am not at present in a position to make any statement as to the introduction of a Bill dealing with this subject.

  Municipal Borrowing Powers.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether municipal authorities who borrow money for the extension of their sewage farms will be permitted, out of such moneys, to pay their permanent staff for draining, excavating, and carting, for official and clerical assistance.
  The hon. Member had also given notice of the following Question:—
  To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether a borough or county council can use the moneys obtained by loan for the purpose of paying the regular carters who are engaged by them permanently to do the carting work of any undertaking they may have in hand.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: The view taken by the Local Government Board is that payments of the kind referred to in both of these Questions cannot properly be made out of borrowed money.

  West Bridgford Public Works.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received a letter from the borough surveyor of West Bridgford, dated 11th February, anent the conditions on which loans are granted to local authorities; and, if so, what has been the nature of his reply.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have received the letter referred to, and am sending a reply to the effect that the Local Government Board gather from the letter that the Urban District Council are not in a position to give permanent employment to the men referred to in it upon work the cost of which is payable out of current rates. If so, and the services of the men are not in fact required for their usual work, the Board are not aware of anything to prevent the Urban District Council from engaging these men to carry out works in respect of which loans have been sanctioned, and paying their wages out of the loans.

  Spotted Fever.
  MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board it the micrococcus of vaccinia has yet been discovered or isolated, and, if not, in what way can the unknown micrococcus be distinguished from that of spotted fever; and will he cause to be printed precise details of the method of examining vaccine matter by which the authorities make sure that the germs of spotted fever are absent.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am advised that the micrococcus of vaccinia has not been discovered or isolated, and that competent authorities are of opinion that the specific cause of vaccinia is not a micrococcus at all; but I trust that my hon. friend will excuse me if I point out that the pathology of different diseases is not conveniently discussed by means of Questions and Answers in this House. As regards the last part of the Question, the precise details of the method of examining vaccine matter will be found printed in the Reports of the Medical Officer of the Local Government Board.
  MR. LUPTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us an opportunity of discussing this matter?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I would suggest the hon. Member should pay a visit—a surprise visit if he likes—to the Lambs' Conduit Station.

  Stockport Messenger's Dismissal.
  MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Frank Gorst, son of Mr. Charles Gorst, licensee of the King's Head Hotel, Tiviot Dale, who was recently engaged as a messenger at the Stockport post office and who was subsequently dismissed on the sole ground that he resided upon licensed premises; whether there is any fixed regulation in the Post Office Department under which this dismissal was ordered; and, if so, whether he will consider the desirability of revising such regulation.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,: I am making inquiry on the subject and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

  Postal and Telegraphic Facilities in Scotland.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the promise which he gave in the Budget Statement last session, to give enlarged postal and telegraphic facilities to rural districts, securing that each place in the United Kingdom shall have, save in very exceptional cases, at least three deliveries a week, and in case of a guarantee being required where postal, telegraph, or telephone facilities are given, the Post-master General shall in ordinary conditions take two-thirds of the risk, is yet in force; and, if so, does it apply to Scotland.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question. The Answer is in the affirmative.
  MR. MORTON: I should have liked to have had an Answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as it was his statement.

  Welsh education Department.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether it is proposed to complete the staff of the newly formed Welsh Department by transfers from the Board of Education, or whether the appointment of any other persons, not at present in the Civil Service, is contemplated; and, if so, for what reason a different course is to be pursued from that which was followed upon the formation of the Scottish Education Department.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. MCKENNA,: The newly formed Welsh Department will be completed partly by transfers from the Board of Education and partly by the appointment of other persons not at present in the Civil Service. The Scottish Education Department offers no analogy to the Department now under consideration, since the former was removed by statute and placed under other political heads than those presiding over the Department from which it was detached.
  LORD R. CECIL: What difference does the creation of a Scottish Education Department make in this question?
  MR. McKENNA: I have given the reasons.

  New Education Bill.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if the Government propose to make any change of policy in connection with the teachers' register.
  MR. McKENNA: I hope shortly to introduce an Education (Administrative Provisions) Bill comprising the non-controversial clauses of last year's measure, and including the amended clause regarding the teachers' register which in its final shape was agreed to by all parties concerned.

  British Trawlers and the Norwegian Flag.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the so-called Foreign trawlers that frequent the Moray Firth are really owned by British companies or firms; is he also aware that they are making use of the Norwegian nationality to break the laws of this country; and will he state what action he proposes to take.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. RUNCIMAN,for Sir EDWARD GREY):My right hon. friend believes that, speaking generally, there is some truth in the statements made in the Question. But he is not aware that there is anything illegal in the fact of British-owned vessels being registered under a foreign flag. And he cannot take any action which is inconsistent with principles of international law, which have been recognised by this country as well as by others.

  Acts on Food Adulteration.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, in connection with the Butter and Margarine Bill, he will cause to be printed and circulated Section 9 of The Margarine Act, 1887, as amended by Section 7 of The Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1899, showing how it is proposed to be adapted to the above-mentioned Bill; Section 7 of The Food and Drugs Act, 1899, showing how it is proposed to be adapted by the Bill;
  1260
  Section 1 of The Food and Drugs Act, 1899, showing the Amendments proposed by the Bill; Sections 4 and 17 of The Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1899, and Sections 5, 11, and 12 of The Margarine Act, 1887; and a statement of the premises required to be registered under The Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1899.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: A memorandum giving the information suggested by the noble Lord is in course of preparation and will be printed and circulated as suggested.

  Board of Agriculture and Fisheries.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, of whom the Board consists; whether it has ever met; and, if so, the date of the last meeting.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries consists of a President, who must be a Member of the Privy Council, the President of the Council, the Principal Secretaries of State, the First Lord of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the Secretary for Scotland, and such other persons as His Majesty may from time to time think fit to appoint. There is no record of the Board as such having ever met.

  Election Expenditure.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General if his attention has been directed to the growing practice of infringing the Corrupt Practices Act by the expenditure of large sums of money on election expenses, otherwise than through the candidates or their election agents; and if he can take immediate steps to check this practice.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir JOHN WALTON,was understood to say that under the provisions of the law in its present form money might be expended—except in respect of specified illegal objects—during an election, provided such expenditure was not made in the conduct or management of the election by a candidate or agent or agency acting on his behalf. In his opinion, it was open to grave question whether such a practice was not a breach of the spirit of the

  1261
  Corrupt Practices Act, and whether, in many cases, it did not constitute a palpable evasion of the restrictions upon expenditure during an election. The matter was well worthy the attention of Parliament, but he could not make any promise to propose an Amendment of the law during the present session.

  Electoral Posters.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask the Attorney-General if he is aware that at the present time a large sum of money is being spent by certain persons in publishing throughout London large and expensive coloured posters urging voters to support candidates who term themselves Municipal Reformers; that such expenditure is being made in defiance of the legal limitations as to the cost of elections; and whether he can take stops to amend the law in such manner as to make this evasion of its intentions impossible.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Before the hon. and learned Gentleman answers the Question, may I ask whether he will also consider the question of certain expenses of very highly coloured posters conveying an entirely mendacious impression of Chinamen's labour, and reflecting on the conduct of hon. Members of this House?
  SIR JOHN WALTON: I think if the expenditure has been made by a candidate or by any agent on his behalf, it can be dealt with under the provisions of the law as they now exist, but if made by some voluntary agency or other persons acting outside, the practice falls within the terms of my Answer to the previous Question.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEYasked whether the hon. and learned Attorney-General's attention had been directed to the extreme urgency of the Question which had arisen through incidents which had happened since he had put the Question on the Paper—namely, the buying up of men at 5s. a day for a demonstration in Trafalgar Square, and the issue of large red bills which had been placed in all parts of London with regard to the tramways.
  SIR JOHN WALTON: I may say that I think that in this respect, and in other
  1262
  respects, the law in regard to elections needs Amendment, and I hope, sooner or later, to introduce a measure on that subject.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: May I ask whether a proper proportion of the cost of those posters ought not to be returned by the respective candidates in their respective divisions?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Meat Inspection in Scotland.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if, in view of the dissatisfaction as to the unequal manner in which the officials of local authorities in Scotland carry out their inspection of meat, he will appoint a veterinary surgeon, with practical experience of the work, to report on the standard and system of inspection in operation in the different districts.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,: An inquiry into the methods of meat inspection by the officers of local authorities in Scotland is now going on, and the suggestion of my hon. friend will be considered when the results of the inquiry are forthcoming.

  Inspection of Irish Pork in Scotland.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to the facts that about 100 tons of boned-out pork are imported every week into Scotland from Ireland; that this pork is not inspected in Ireland, and it is not possible to inspect it in Scotland on account of the absence of the internal organs, the bones, and trunk lymphatic glands; and if he will see that in future all carcases and organs of swine slaughtered in Ireland for export to Scotland will be inspected in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission, 1898, or prevented from being sold for human food.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The matter referred to by my hon. friend seems rather to fall within the province of the Irish Local Government Board, whose attention is being called to the question.

  Fishery Protection.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, having regard to the fact that the interests of line fishermen suffer through illegal trawlers sweeping the fishing beds, will he state whether the funds at the disposal of the Scottish Fishery Board are yet sufficient to admit of the sea police service being strengthened by the purchase of another fishery cruiser.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I learn from inquiry that the funds at the disposal of the Fishery Board are not yet sufficient to admit of another cruiser being acquired.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: When are there likely to be sufficient funds? This is an urgent matter for the fishermen.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I am sorry I cannot say.
  MR. MORTON: May I ask my right hon. friend how, being short of cruisers for sea police service, he was able to allow the Permanent Secretary to have a cruiser last autumn for a holiday tour with ladies.
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Scottish School Board Franchise.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state when he intends to present to Parliament a Return showing the number of persons in the Highland crofting counties who are deprived of the school board franchise by reason of their rentals not exceeding £4; and, seeing that these persons are entitled to vote at Parliamentary and county council elections, will he arrange for them to secure the school board franchise under the Scottish Education Bill which he proposes to introduce this session.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The Return of Occupiers of Farms (Scotland), ordered by the House of Commons on 18th December last, is in course of preparation, but the information given by it on the point referred to by the hon. Member will not be exhaustive, as it is confined to occupiers of farms. This, however, I do not so much regret, as the amendment of the law which the hon. Member desires depends rather on a question of principle than on figures. The hon. Member's
  1264
  suggestion that the matter might be dealt with in the Education Bill will be taken into consideration.

  Physical Deterioration.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Local Government Board for Scotland have yet arranged to issue to parochial medical officers, sanitary inspectors, and inspectors of the poor, leaflets containing the opinions of the Committee on Physical Deterioration relative to ventilation and the bringing up of young children, with a view to the dissemination of information on these subjects.
  MR. SINCLAIR: In fulfilment of the promise made in April last, the Board issued in June a circular and leaflet oft the management of young children. These were circulated to public health local authorities and their medical officers and were widely appreciated. The leaflet may now be purchased through any bookseller, price one halfpenny per copy.

  Scottish Courts of Session.
  MR. CLELAND: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether, with a view to avoiding the inconvenience and expense entailed by the present system of legal procedure, he will consider the advisability of setting up a branch of the court of session in the West of Scotland to deal with commercial cases arising in that part of Scotland.
  MR. SINCLAIR: Such inconvenience and expense as may be caused to litigants in the West of Scotland through the fact that the court of session holds its sittings in Edinburgh are not, in my opinion, sufficient to justify judicial changes of the importance and magnitude involved in the proposal of my hon. friend, and the answer is consequently in the negative. I may say that before replying in these terms I have taken counsel with my right hon. friend the Lord Advocate.

  Elliot Junction Railway Accident.
  MR. BELL: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether a public inquiry under the Fatal Accidents (Scotland) Act has been held into the cause of the accident to the ill-fated train at Elliot Junction on 28th December last; what was the verdict of the jury; if the jury found that the driver, G. Gourlay, was

  1265
  guilty of culpable negligence, under what circumstances or statute is the Crown taking criminal proceedings against him; why was he arrested before the sheriff's inquiry was held; and whether, in view of the anxiety and suffering caused to Gourlay, both mentally and physically, by having to undergo a third inquiry, he can see his way to advise the Crown to withdraw the prosecution.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,: A public inquiry was instructed by me in regard to this lamentable railway accident in which twenty-two persons lost their lives, and the inquiry was duly held. The jury returned a detailed verdict which was published in full at the time and of which I should be glad to furnish my hon. friend with a copy. Gourlay was found to have been at fault. He is being proceeded against under the common law of Scotland. Immediately upon the occurrence of the accident in formation was laid in ordinary course of law before the sheriff at Dundee, and that Judge granted warrant for the arrest of Gourlay. He applied to be liberated on bail, and upon the matter being brought to my notice his application was acceded to by the Crown and granted. With regard to the last portion of the question I may explain that the facts appear to Crown Counsel to be such as to make it proper that the case should proceed to trial. My hon. friend may rely upon the trial being conducted with absolute fairness, and he will, I trust, appreciate that it would not be in the public interest or in the interest of the accused that I should make a further statement.

  Ballaghaline Pier.
  MR. HALPIN: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland to when the Bill will be introduced to be enable the Clare County Council to avail of the money allocated to be spent on the fishing pier at Ballaghaline, county of Clare.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHERRY,: My right hon. friend the Chief Secretary hopes to be able, at an early date, to introduce legislation extending the power of local authorities
  1266
  to contribute to works of the nature referred to in the Question.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware to that the failure to erect this pier for some years has been solely due to technical difficulties, which have now to been removed, and will he see that the necessary Bill is introduced to enable the work to be carried out this spring?
  MR. CHERRY: When our attention was called to the matter my colleague it and I were obliged to report that under the existing law the local authority could not spend money on the work without legislation. Whether it is possible to get a Bill passed to enable the work to be commenced this spring I cannot say.

  Dunshaughlin Labourers Act Inquiry.
  MR. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the inspector of the Local Government Board reported the claims of John Clarke, John Corregan, and Patrick Caffery at the recent Labourers Act inquiry held in Dunshaughlin; and, if so, what were the grounds of such action.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL,: The Local Government Board's inspector disallowed the applications of the persons named, because the conditions laid down by the Labourers Act were not fulfiled in some respects. I have communicated to the hon. Member a full statement of the facts.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Did not the Chief Secretary last session promise to bring in a Bill which it was generally recognised would be uncontentious? Cannot a like Bill now be brought in?
  MR. CHERRYsaid he was not aware of any such promise having been made, but so far as he was concerned he would do his best to facilitate the passage of the Bill in every possible way.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Let the Bill be brought in at once. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman no Party or body of men will oppose it.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of coupling this work with several other important piers in the North of Ireland?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to give notice that at the earliest possible opportunity I will call attention to this matter, which is little short of a scandal.

  International Exhibition Work.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has observed the action of the International Exhibition Committee, who made it practically impossible that Irish firms should tender for the restaurant furniture; is a Government grant to be made towards this exhibition; if so, how much, and will he see that Irish labour is employed on what work still remains to be done; and further, in view of the fact that the catering contract has been secured by an English firm, will he see that Irish goods are supplied in this connection.
  MR. BIRRELL: I am informed that the Committee of the Irish International Exhibition have expressly stipulated that all supplies which can be provided at fair prices in Ireland shall be purchased at home, and that Irish labour shall be employed as far as possible. No Government grant is to be given to the Exhibition, but the Department of Agriculture and the Congested Districts Board have made grants of £2,000 and £250, respectively, for the purpose of aiding small industries to exhibit their products in the Home Industries' section, In these circumstances, and as the undertaking is of private origin, the Government would in any case have no right to interfere.

  Irish Land Sub-Commissioners.
  MR. MOORE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received a resolution from certain Members of the House protesting against the appointment of partisans to the position of Sub-Commissioners fixing rents under the Land Acts; and if, under these circumstances, he will consider that membership of the United Irish League
  1268
  is a bar to any applicant seeking such appointments.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative, and to the last in the negative.

  Bawnboy Union—Failure of the Potato Crop.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received a resolution from the Bawnboy Board of Guardians dealing with the question of seed potatoes in that district; is he aware that, owing to the failure of the potato crop in this union and in the district around Blacklion, and bearing in mind the poverty of many small holders who have suffered, Government aid in supplying seed potatoes is essential if a further famine is to be guarded against next year; and will he say what action he proposes to take.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Local Government Board have received the resolution referred to in the Question. The Board have made special inquiries into the circumstances of the union referred to, and are satisfied that the union is not one in which the failure of the potato crop was such as to render it necessary for the Government to adopt special measures for the supply of seed potatoes.

  Kinvara Pier.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a difficulty has arisen in connection with the construction of the Kinvara Pier and other works in the harbour; whether the money required to commence and carry out the improvements is available; and will he explain what steps the Government intend to take to fulfil the promise made in the last session to enable the county council, in conjunction with the Congested Districts Board and the Agricultural Board, to commence the work at once.
  MR. BIRRELL: The question of undertaking legislation which would have the effect of removing the difficulty in question is under consideration, and I hope to be able to introduce the necessary Bill at an early date.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: In considering this, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the claims of other districts?
  MR. BIRRELL: The Bill to which my hon. friend refers will be introduced at the earliest possible date, and I hope it will receive the friendly consideration he anticipates.

  New Irish Judge.
  MR. MOORE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when the vacancy in the King's Bench Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland to which Mr. Sergeant Dodd has been appointed was created; and if the judgeship was the one referred to by his predecessor on 28th May, 1906,†in this House as extinct or suspended.
  The following Questions also appeared on the Paper:—
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his predecessor stated to the House, on 28th May, 1906,†that the salary saved by the extinction of this judgeship, amounting to £3,500 per annum, was to be applied for the purpose of financing the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1906; and if the Act so contemplated.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that his predecessor introduced a Bill in the last session of Parliament finally to abolish this judgeship and one other; and if eight additional examiners of title, at salaries of £600 per annum and upwards, were appointed in 1905 in the Land Purchase Department, expressly by arrangement with the Treasury, in lieu of filling up this judgeship, then vacant.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Land Judge of the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice expressed his willingness to assist his colleagues in Land Commission work; and if this offer was refused.
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers
  †See (4) Debates, clviii., 109.
  1270
  may I ask whether he will say whether, when the Government appointed Mr. Sergeant Dodd to the Bench, they were aware that the services of the hon. Member for North Armagh were available for the same job?
  MR. BIRRELL: Legal talent in Ireland is so great that the Government is never at a loss. The vacancy referred to was created in January, 1904, by the transfer of Mr. Justice Barton to the Chancery Division; and the judgeship in question is the one which was referred to by my predecessor on 28th May last as suspended (not extinct). The Labourers Act of last session provides that the savings to be effected by the abolition of any Irish judgeships by any Act of that session shall be applied to the purposes of the Labourers Acts. It is the fact that during last session my predecessor introduced a Bill which provided for the abolition of two judgeships, but the Bill failed to become law. The proposed legislation has, however, not been abandoned. It is intended to introduce a Bill to provide that two out of the next three vacancies which may occur in the King's Bench Division shall not be filled. It is not the fact that additional examiners were appointed in lieu of filling up the vacant judgeship, and no such arrangement has ever been suggested or considered. The Land Judge of the Chancery Division has for some time past assisted in the work of the Purchase Department of the Land Commission, and he has recently expressed his willingness to undertake increased work in that connection. The proposal, which involves important financial considerations, has not been refused, but is at present under consideration. The Land Judge has not proposed to assist the Land Commission in hearing fair rent appeals, and indeed such an arrangement would not be possible without dislocating the business of his own Court. There are at present no less than 7,367 fair rent appeals pending in the Land Commission; and in the Land Purchase Department there is over £1,500,000 awaiting distribution by the Judicial Commissioner. The work of both departments in the Land Commission is, therefore, greatly in arrear, with the result that not only is the policy of land purchase impeded, but much inconvenience and hardship

  1271
  are inflicted upon both vendors and purchasers. Mr. Justice Dodd's services will be availed of, under a special provision of the Land Act of 1903, for the hearing of appeals, in order to enable Mr. Justice Wylie, with whatever assistance can be rendered to him by the Land Judge, to devote his whole time, if necessary, to dealing with the difficult legal questions involved in the distribution of purchase moneys of estates sold under the Land Purchase Acts.
  MR. MOORE: Is it a fact that this time last year there were 11,000 appeals, and the Government introduced a Bill to abolish two judgeships?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Dernacrieve Post Office.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that there is only a temporary post office at Dernacrieve, Belturbet, county Cavan; is it his intention to establish a permanent post office in this district; where is the present post office situate; is it furnished with the usual letter-box, etc.; and will the convenience and comfort of the people residing in this locality be considered in any contemplated changes.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I am aware that at present the post office at Dernacrieve is in charge of a temporary sub-postmistress; but a permanent appointment will be made very shortly; and the convenience of the inhabitants of the district will, of course, be considered. The temporary premises, which are situated about 500 yards from the old office, are reported to be convenient for the people generally. Pending a permanent appointment no letter-box has been fixed as it was undesirable to put the temporary sub-postmistress to any expense.

  Kinvara Postal Dilivery.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that dissatisfaction exists in the Kinvara district, Galway, regarding the postal delivery; and whether he will take steps to bring the delivery up to the reasonable requirements of the people.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: There has been no material change in the circum-
  1272
  stances since I considered this Question at the hon. Member's request last March,†and I am sorry, therefore, that I am unable to meet his wishes in the matter.

  Royal Academicians.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if his attention has been directed to the fact that the number of academicians of the Royal Academy of Arts is at the present time forty, or the same as when the Academy was founded in 1768, although the number of British artists has multiplied probably tenfold in the 139 years which have elapsed; whether he is aware that the consequent small chance of election as academicians is a real hardship to many men of recognised talent; and whether he can see his way, in view of the responsibilities of the Royal Academy, and in the interests of British Art, to make representations to the institution on the subject.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,, for Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN): As my hon. friend is probably aware, the Government have no control over the Royal Academy, and therefore my right hon. friend can hardly undertake to make the representations suggested in the Question.

  The Channel Tunnel.
  MR. H. H. MARKS: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the revival of the project for the construction of a tunnel under the English Channel and of the conflicting opinions that are held as to it, he will consider the expediency of referring to a body of experts in national defence the question of the desirability of such a tunnel from the point of view of the national welfare and security.
  MR. ASQUITH: No, Sir. I think the appointment of such a body of experts to consider the desirability of such a tunnel from the point of view of the national welfare and security is not necessary The Government are sufficiently informed on this subject by the Committee of Imperial Defence and by other professional advisers.
  †See (4) Debates, cliv., 1044.

  Ambassador to the United States—Salary, etc.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer upon what grounds he sanctioned the raising of the salary of his late colleague, the newly appointed Ambassador to the United States, to the same level as that of President Roosevelt, the Chief of the State to which he is accredited, namely, £10,000 a year, and how he proposes to find the necessary funds; and, further, if the Embassy Mansion in Connecticut Avenue, at Washington, is the property of His Majesty's Government, together with its furniture and equipment, and if the new Ambassador has the enjoyment thereof free of rent, rates, and taxes, in addition to his salary; and whether any arrangement has been made by which Mr. Bryce shall retire at the age of sixty-five.
  MR. ASQUITH: It has been found necessary, for public reasons, to raise the salary attached to the Embassy at Washington, and this was done irrespective of the person appointed Ambassador. The amount will appear in the Estimates and will come before Parliament in the same way as other salaries. The Answer to the latter part of the Question as regards the Embassy buildings is in the affirmative, except that it is only the furniture of the State rooms that is kept up at the public expense; the Ambassador is responsible for the rest of the furniture. There is no rule requiring an Ambassador to retire at sixty-five.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Then can he go on until he is 150 years old?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Tobacco-Growing in Ireland.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Government will support the Bill for the repeal of the Law prohibiting tobacco-growing in Ireland, which received the approval of every Member representing an Irish constituency.
  MR. ASQUITH: Yes, the Government will support the Bill provided that it is amended in the manner I have suggested to the hon. Member in correspondence I
  1274
  have recently had with him on the subject.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Gentlemen in charge of the Bill are prepared to accept the Amendments? Will he therefore give facilities for the Bill?
  MR. ASQUITH: That Question had better be deferred till the return of the Prime Minister.

  Sugar Bounties.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the fact that it is useless to think of establishing a factory for the manufacture of sugar from beet unless with a certainty that there will be a large acreage of beet grown in the neighbourhood, and no farmer will grow this beet unless there is a factory at hand to purchase it, he will consider the advisability of granting a bonus of such a sum on each ton of sugar produced as will enable a sugar factory to be started and worked through the initiatory stages with a reasonable certainty of success.
  MR. ASQUITH: No, Sir.

  Saccharine Smuggling.
  MR. ROWLANDS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a woman has been fined, at the Thames Police Court, £50 for smuggling saccharine; whether there has been an increase in the smuggling of saccharine in recent years; and can he state the number of successful prosecutions.
  MR. ASQUITH: The answer to the first part of my hon. friend's Question is in the affirmative. The duty on saccharine was only imposed in 1901, and I have no reason to believe that there has been any increase in smuggling it of late. There have been, in all, twenty-three successful prosecutions at the instance of the Board of Customs, and ten at the instance of the Board of Inland Revenue.

ADJOURNMENT.
MR. MOORE,Member for North Armagh, rose in his place, and asked leave

1275
to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, "the action of His Majesty's present advisers in making an appointment of a Judgeship in the High Court of Justice in Ireland, which has been vacant for the last three years.
MR. SPEAKER: If the matter which the hon. Member has raised had come before the House for the first time, I should have felt it my duty to have refused to accept his proposal, because I doubt whether, the appointment of the Judge having been made, it can properly be said that there is any urgency in the matter, however desirable it may be to call for an explanation with regard to it. But I find I am precluded by the action of my predecessor on an almost similar occasion, on 18th May, 1900,†when a Motion was made for the adjournment of the House in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, "the refusal of Her Majesty's present advisers to recognise the just claims of Ireland to representation in the High Court of Appeal for the three kingdoms." It seems to me that, if it was right in that case that a motion should be made for the adjournment of the House, the case which the hon. Member proposes to raise comes well within that precedent. Therefore, I do not raise any objection. Has the hon. Gentleman the leave of the House?
The pleasure of the House having been signified, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, until a quarter past Eight this evening.
†See (4) Debates, lxxxiii., 593 et seq.

NEW BILLS.
  GROCERS' LICENCES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To abolish Dealers' or Grocers' Licences in Scotland," presented by Mr. Rainy; supported by Mr. Crombie, Mr. Lamont, Mr. Dalziel, Mr. Findlay, Mr. Gulland, and Mr. Eugene Wason; to be read a second time upon Wednesday 17th April, and to be printed. [Bill 62.]
  EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY (INSURANCE COMPANIES) BILL.
  "To apply the provisions of the Life Assurance Companies Acts, 1870 to 1872, to Companies carrying on the business of insuring Employers against liability to pay compensation or damages to workmen in their employment," presented by Mr. Kearley; supported by Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. Herbert Samuel; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 63.]
  SMALL HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To deal with Small Holdings in Scotland," presented by Mr. Munro Ferguson; supported by Sir Thomas Glen Coats and Sir Edward Tennant; to be read a second time upon Monday, 18th March, and to be printed. [Bill 64.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Proceedings on going into Committee of Supply, if under consideration at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 277; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 18.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Brace, William

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Beale, W. P.

  Branch, James

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Beauchamp, E.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Alden, Percy

  Bell, Richard

  Brooke, Stopford

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J.T. (Ches.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bertram, Julius

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'd

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Billson, Alfred

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Blake, Edward

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Barker, John

  Boland, John

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Barnard, E. B.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Cameron, Robert

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hodge, John

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Hogan, Michael

  Partington, Oswald

  Chance, Frederick William

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Paul, Herbert

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Hudson, Walter

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'th'mpton

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Phillips, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Clough, William

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Pollard, Dr.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Jenkins, J.

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancr's, W.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Cooper, G. J.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Rainy, A. Polland

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Gr'st'd

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Cox, Harold

  Joyce, Michael

  Reddy, M.

  Crombie, John William

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Crooks, William

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Rees, J. D.

  Crossley, William J.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Cullinan, J.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Richards, Thomas (W. Mon.)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Delany, William

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accringt'n

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Dewar John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Robinson, S.

  Dilke Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Dillon John

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rose, Charles Day

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon David

  Rowlands, J.

  Duckworth, James

  Lough, Thomas

  Runciman, Walter

  Duffy, William J.

  Lundon, W.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Elibank, Master of

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Sears, J. E.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Fenwick, Charles

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Ferens, T. R.

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  M'Callum, John M.

  Sinclair, Rt, Hon. John

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Crae, George

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  M'Kean, John

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Gill, A. H.

  Maddison, Frederick

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Ginnell, L.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Massie, J.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Meagher, Michael

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Grant, Corrie

  Menzies, Walter

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sullivan, Donal

  Gulland, John W.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Montagu, E. S.

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Mooney, J. J.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Halpin, J.

  Morrell, Philip

  Thomason, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Thorne, William

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Murphy, John

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Murray, James

  Toulmin, George

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Myer, Horatio

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Verney, F. W.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wadsworth, J.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

  Henry, Charles S.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wardle, George J.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Waring, Walter

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Dowd, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  1278

  1279

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wodehouse, Lord

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Young, Samuel.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Williamson, A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Whitbread, Howard

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Whitley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wilson, J. H (Middlesbsrough

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcesterh. H.)

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Meysey-Thompson. E. C.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Moore, William

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gordon, Sir W. Evans(T'r Ham.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Haddock, George R.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Ed'mds

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Sloan. Thomas Henry

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hills, J. W.

  Smith. Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Starkey, John R.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hunt, Rowland

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Liddell, Henry

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Long. Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Younger, George

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Viscount Valentia.

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

  Marks, H. H. (Kent.)

  Fell, Arthur

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  SUPPLY (ARMY ESTIMATES).
  Order for Committee read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,: It is the custom upon this occasion for the Minister responsible for Estimates to explain them somewhat fully, but I do not imagine that the House will desire that I should upon the present occasion linger long over that task. There will be other opportunities in the course of this week, and I have matter to place before the House which will require an economical use of time in order to bring it within reasonable compass. Therefore I propose to say very little about these Estimates. They show, as the House knows, a substantial reduction under two heads. Under the head of capital, under the loan system, which is now coming to an end, we have reduced our demand upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer by upwards of £600,000 this year, and I am glad to say that, being a conscientious Department, we have repaid to him for Sinking Fund and interest
  1280
  considerably more than we have received from him. In addition to that there is a sum of a little over £2,000,000, which has come off the income account, and of that reduction I wish to say something. Less than half a million is the result of the reduction in the Line battalions which took place last summer. The reasons for that reduction I shall have to touch on later on, but, as regards the rest, the remaining £1,500,000, of this I may say emphatically that the Army Budget this year is a soldier's Budget. I took office deeply impressed by a declaration of Lord Randolph Churchill. He pointed out that his experience as Chancellor of the Exchequer had convinced him that the civilian economist would get nothing substantial off the soldier if he kept him at arm's length, and for that reason he made the proposition that the head of the great spending Departments of the Army and Navy should be somebody who should be closely in touch with the naval and military element. What Lord Randolph Churchill said I think has been shown

  1281
  to be profoundly true. The soldier is the only ultimate judge of military necessities. If he presses the matter the civilian must accept what he says. It is no use trying, as I think we have tried too much in the past under our financial system, to set spies upon him. When the spy goes he generally does not get within the lines, or if he does get within the lines he is made an end of by the soldier or captured; and the consequence is that, notwithstanding frantic efforts, we have never been able by the mere imposition of civilian scrutiny to reduce Estimates. Feeling the truth of that doctrine, I took counsel with my hon. friend the Financial Secretary, and also with his very able and devoted Director-General of Finances, Sir Guy Fleetwood Wilson, and we resolved on a different course. We went to the soldiers and said that, so far as the law and the constitution allowed, we were going to give them their head; that we would enter into a covenant with them that the things they wanted—and they were a good many—for military efficiency and for preparation for war we would do our best to get for them. On the other hand, we asked them to make a covenant with us that they would take the Estimates in hand, and would deal with them upon the footing of cutting down all things that were merely for show and were not useful for war, and of securing that the nation should, as far as possible, got value for its money. The soldiers entered into the covenant. They get this year the enlargement of Sandhurst, on which we propose to spend £250,000 with a view to giving a better education to the young officers. They get the beginning of the programme for new howitzers, which is to bring that part of our artillery up to the level of other nations. They get the building of the Victoria Barracks at Windsor on a footing which will give the private soldier better accommodation than he has—a cubicle in place of the old-fashioned barrack, and better dining and recreation rooms. They get a much-needed improvement in the pay of the commanding officers of battalions and regiments, and various minor changes on which I need not enlarge. And these things they have secured for themselves by effecting ruthless economies in the things which they judged were not necessary for the purposes of war. I do not, as far as I can judge, doubt for a
  1282
  moment the opinion which they have expressed to me that these economies—I am not talking of a controversial subject of the reduction of the infantry, but of the £1,500,000—I do not question for a moment their judgment that they have not detracted in the slightest degree from the fighting efficiency of the Army or the preparation for war. But, however these things may be, there is one remark which I wish to make, and that is that it would not have been possible to get this new instrument for economy had it not been for the distinguished generals who form the Army Council. Each of them now has his functions assigned, the sphere of his activities mapped out, and a definite opportunity. This is the result of the re-organisation which was made, under the powerful chairmanship of Lord Esher, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London. Without the reform of the War Office, which was made then, it would, in my judgment, have been impossible to get, at any rate in anything like the same degree, the economies which we have succeeded in getting this year, and which I trust are not the last which the soldiers will secure for the nation. I think we may probably carry the policy with advantage still further, and, following out the principle of that assignment of definite duties, add to it the assigning of definite financial responsibility. The civilian cannot check the soldier, and it is much better to place financial responsibility where real power rests. Revise his estimates, audit his accounts, watch over his proceedings, but leave him, telling him what you want him to do, to work out your economies for you. I believe you will find, if you trust him, that you have in the soldier by far the best economist to whom you could turn. That at least has been my experience in. the course of the present year, and I believe it lies at the root of the possibility of securing further reductions in Army expenditure.
  But I do not want to pursue this subject of the Estimates any further. It is some fourteen months ago since it fell to me to make a speech on behalf of the Government in the City of London on the subject of the Army, and I said then that I had it in commission from my right hon. friend the Prime Minister to declare that our settled

  1283
  purpose was to endeavour to make the Army better and not worse, and if necessary for that purpose, if necessary to bring it up to a condition of fighting efficiency, to find more men and more money. But I went on to say that we were profoundly convinced of this—that the key to having plenty of money for making preparations for war lay in frugality in time of peace, and accordingly that we were not without hope that we should find that substantial reductions could be made on the charge to the public for Army services. What was then speculation has become, to my mind, a certainty. I went into the matter, as far as I could, in the spirit of a plain person of business. What would one do, on coming face to face with an ordinary business problem, if one had it to cope with—nay, to put it more simply, what would one do in the simple case of being responsible for the administration of a large household? Suppose one were made steward or majordomo of a great country house, where the complaint had been that the books were too high and that, on the other hand, there was too little accommodation for guests and too little provision for entertaining them—suppose one found oneself in such a position, what would one do? One would not be content with seeing, what one could see at a glance, that there was a very fine butler and half-a-dozen magnificent footmen; one would go down into the kitchen and see whether one could trace the source of the complaint that there was never enough for dinner; and if one found when one went down that, although there was a French cook, there were no kitchen maids, or very few, and that upstairs there was a deficiency of housemaids, and if one went further and discovered that the garden was being kept by an altogether extravagant number of gardeners, who were not only, some of them, doing labourers' work when they had nothing else to do, but were making work for themselves, then one would begin to get some light at once on the size of the books; and if one discovered in the stable that there were very few horses and a large number of carriages which could not be taken to the station to convey the guests one would begin by selling some of the carriages and by buying horses. One would go on to cut down the number of gardeners, and with the money so saved engage
  1284
  kitchen maids for the kitchen and more housemaids to look after the rooms. One would knock off a few footmen, and then one could mobilise for "weekending" by getting a number of civilian waiters on a militia basis. In other words, one must look at the organisation as a whole, and endeavour to proportion its parts, and then one would have good hope, not merely of doubling the capacity for entertaining, but of a considerable and substantial reduction in the books.
  That was exactly the situation which confronted me in the case of the Army with this new machinery of the Esher organisation, and the new constitution of the War Office which I had handed over to me by my predecessor, who had taken so large and honourable part in constructing it, but who had to leave it before he had an opportunity of using it. I found myself in the position to use for the first time this machinery to the full. My hon. friend who sits beside me and myself began by taking stock exactly as in the case of a household. I do not think the Army has every had such a stocktaking. We have surveyed it and made out a sort of deficiency account, just as an accountant would do who was liquidating an old business and reconstructing it with fresh capital. The result of that deficiency account I shall lay before the House this evening. But when we came to consider the reconstruction there was one thing, and one thing only, that we set before ourselves, and that was this—for our reorganisation in peace all the arrangements we had to make must be based upon preparedness for war. It is preparedness for war which is the key to the sort of organisation we ought to have in peace. If you try to do anything else you fail, us we failed in our preparations for South Africa. South Africa has taught us several lessons. There is the terrible waste of public money, and the still worse lesson—the terrible waste of valuable lives. We were resolved we would do our best with the materials handed on to us, not only in the shaping of the new organisation at the War Office, but in endeavouring to see what would be wanted in war, and to prepare to that end.
  The first thing we had to consider was the test, which is the ultimate test in these matters, of readiness for

  1285
  mobilisation. No army is worth anything which is not ready to take the field. As a nation, we have a genius for getting ourselves through unheard of difficulties which would defeat most other Powers, and, after great waste, we sometimes manage to make up our shortcomings. But preparedness for mobilisation is to-day far more important than it was in times of yore. The old generals—the men of genius—did not make the elaborate distinction between the combatant on the one hand, and the administrative services on the other—supply, transport, and so on—which it is absolutely necessary to make to-day. The reason was that the forces they had to handle were much smaller. It is impossible to handle our Army to-day unless you have it perfect in every part—perfect in the civilian as well as in the combatant services. I need hardly say that the non-combatant services are essential in order to make the combatant services effective. It is in the highest degree important that every bit of the organisation should be made to fit into every other bit. That is the thing which requires years of work and months of preparation for any particular campaign, and it can only be successfully done if the matter is taken in hand in the most thorough-going spirit. Now, taking this test of mobilisation, and looking at Continental armies, there is one thing which strikes the eye at once as different from our case. A Continental Power has a land frontier, and the certainty that, if war breaks out, it must give shock to an invading enemy almost within a few days. Such a nation must prepare itself in a way which is not apposite to our case, and must throw as much as possible into the first line. They have no real second line and would have to bring up reserves in support, and, under their system, they would bring them up from the depths of the nation itself which is trained for war. But with us, fortunately for ourselves, we retain, and we mean to keep, the command of the seas. We are in a position to be sure that if we have this command, and if we possess a small, but well equipped Army ready to take the field in defence of any part of the Empire, and if we have behind that a second line distinct from that Army, we may then have a sense of considerable safety. We have this which stands out and distinguishes our case from that of all
  1286
  other nations. We need a first line which, compared with that of other nations, may be small in quantity, because it has to operate in the main across the seas, but which for that very reason must be very high in quality. It must be professional. Behind that we should have a second line resting in the nation itself, slumbering in times of peace, although prepared to be called upon only in times of supreme national emergency, but there when it is wanted for the defence of our shores and for the expansion and support of the Army abroad. Therefore it seems to me the true organisation for this country is an organisation in two lines, not three lines. So far as we can at present be said to have any organisation, our mistake has been that we attempted to make it in three lines—the first, professional; the second, semi-professional, I mean the Militia; and the third, the Volunteer organisation, purely voluntary. What has been the result? Each has been starved by the others. Our first line is full of gaps; our second line is decadent because it is not possible to find men and money sufficient; and the third line is totally disorganised because the military talent has flowed so largely into the other lines. Instead of having a homogeneous organisation we have got a confused mass of troops coming under these three heads, but with no place in a definite military scheme.
  On behalf of the Government I am going to make an appeal that goes beyond this House of Parliament to the nation. I am going to appeal to the nation to recognise that it is only in two lines that we can successfully organise if we are to have anything near perfection in military organisation, and that it is only by making sacrifices, because sacrifices will be required, that we can carry out the reforms which are necessary to put ourselves in a position of fighting efficiency. We shall have to call upon the Auxiliary Forces to give up many traditions, to remould themselves and to be prepared for war as completely and thoroughly as the first line. This is the key to the proposition I have to submit. I cannot say I approach this task without diffidence, but the diffidence would have been greater had the results of twelve months' pretty hard labour fallen upon myself alone. I have had the assistance of the best brains in

  1287
  the British Army and the co-operation—the cordial co-operation—of my colleagues on the Army Council. We had our different points of view and have adjusted them in getting this scheme, which I believe represents the best mode practicable of solving the national problem. Then the whole matter has been thoroughly tested and sifted by the Defence Committee, so that we have the opinion, not only of soldiers inside the War Office, but of distinguished soldiers outside. Last year we took the preliminary step, which had become clearly necessary, of organising our first line into six divisions and four cavalry brigades. That was embodied in the Army Order published on 1st January, and although the units are there and the organisation is there, and although preparations are rapidly being concluded which will put that first line into a condition of readiness, yet there are gaps—gaps which were not caused by me, but which I have inherited, and my predecessors have inherited from the days when people in this country were slack in military matters and did not pay that attention to them which the highly scientific problem of to-day will require.
  I have no hesitation in making known these things to the public because, although the British public may not be familiar with them, they are well known to the general staffs in the Rue St. Dominique and in the Thiergarten. One is revealing no secret when one goes into detail of the shortcomings affecting the first and second line with a view of doing all that is in the power of the Government to set them right. As I have said, we settle upon six divisions and four cavalry brigades of 160,000 men and officers as the strength and the size of the first line. Some persons will say, "Why fix on this force? Up to now we have never talked of more than the mobilising of 100,000 or 120,000 men; now you are proposing to mobilise 160,000 men." The answer to that is very simple; I have all these men for another reason than that of putting them into these divisions. I have them here to supply drafts for the battalions in India and the Colonies. I have not learned that my right hon. friend the Secretary for India is prepared to ask me to withdraw any of the fifty two battalions which he has already from me for the purposes of India, and which he has had much on that scale from the time of
  1288
  the Mutiny. We have reduced the number of troops in the Colonies across the sea by eight battalions, and they may be reduced still more in the future. I cannot tell—that depends on considerations of policy; but I have to keep a sufficient force to supply the drafts for the battalions abroad. Whether you do it in accordance with the Cardwell system or whether you do it through depots, you have to find the drafts to keep these battalions abroad alive. Therefore we have felt ourselves justified, and more than justified, seeing that we have the material there, in putting it into the most useful form possible, and we have done it, leaving a considerable margin over, so that if further reductions are to come—I am not saying that they are coming—we have a margin on which we can draw with the least disturbance to the organisation I am proposing. From the point of view of economy and efficiency, it is the best thing we can do to put the material into some sort of arrangement. It has been often asked, "Is such a force in accordance with the requirements of the Empire?" I have never been able to work out the standard of the requirements of the Empire. Given a peaceful policy, we hope that these requirements will be very small, and we ought to keep them as small as we can; but at any time clouds may come over the horizon, and therefore we ought to keep something in reserve. But, although we are not laying down any standard of requirements for the Empire, we are seeking to keep together a force which is better prepared for war than any force which we have hitherto had, and that seems to me the first step to be taken in order to satisfy the requirements of the Empire, It gives, at all events, more than at the present time, while one is prejudicing nothing and no principle. I should define the obligation of the War Office to be to keep this force of six divisions and four cavalry brigades with their military administrative services in an efficient condition for mobilisation, and to maintain them for a period of at least six months. After six months, drafts are found by the ordinary machinery of war. It does not follow that we shall use the whole of that force at once, and therefore we hope to spread out its use for a larger period of time. But with the wastage of war one feels

  1289
  that at the end of six months the resources of the War Office may be at an end with that amount of men, and then an appeal must be made to the nation itself. We ought to give the nation itself an organisation which imperceptibly in time of peace may enable it to come forth in a moment of supreme emergency and support and expand the force that has gone over sea. The obligation ought to be two-fold. First of all, the Government should have ready this force of six divisions and four cavalry brigades and keep it alive through regular machinery for six months, and after that the nation should be prepared to do its part. That aid should come, through channels which should be provided for it beforehand, to the support and the expansion of the professional Army of the country.
  There is one other important consideration wholly overlooked in our organisation. It is a point which has not been applied in practice. It is this—that in modern war the combined action of the various anus is vital and essential. Suppose the infantry are attacking a position against the modern breech-loader with smokeless powder. It is hopeless to expect that any men could get across an open strip of country to make a frontal attack. Their only chance of success is that the artillery should first of all help by pouring shrapnel into the enemy's trenches, and thus enable our own infantry to get up. On the other hand, it is impossible to prepare for these things without the use of cavalry, the purpose of which is to operate far ahead of the lines of the Army, to locate the position of the enemy, and, if possible, induce him to show himself. Therefore, you require a combination of the three arms in their proper proportion, and such an adjustment is just as essential as it is in the case of the household I have but lately described. You must have these things, not in excess, but in their proper proportion, so that the one can operate to the support of the other. We have defined the amount of artillery for the field artillery of these six divisions and four cavalry brigades, and we have defined the proportions in which the cavalry, artillery, and infantry should stand one to the other; and to these proportions, in the opinion of the General Staff, we should hold. In passing I may say that we are
  1290
  realising the enormous advantage of the General Staff. Without the General Staff it is impossible to work out and to solve these problems. We used to operate in a slap dash way in the old days, and the result was confusion. The General Staff is the brain of the Army, which thinks out these problems; and it is to the General Staff that we owe the organisation which I am going to describe and to suggest as the means by which the requirements are to be fulfilled.
  Bearing in mind that it is only through the better combination of arms that infantry can be made effective with the requisite proportions of artillery and cavalry, let me take stock of what the nation has, with a view to seeing whether we have anything like a satisfactory organisation for war. I begin with the second line, because I can come back to the first line after I have sketched the background. I take first the materials which we have got for rendering possible the formation of the second line with the proper proportions of cavalry, artillery, infantry, and administrative services; and I will see what are the deficiences that exist in the present arrangement. I take first the Militia. Now the Militia is the oldest force in this country. It is a force with many traditions, and it goes to one's heart to note what the scrutiny has disclosed as inevitable. The Militia must undergo a great transformation before anything can be said to justify the £2,000,000 which the nation is spending on them at the present time. Their material can be made useful, but great changes will be required, as will be seen from the present position. They have no cavalry, no artillery; and therefore the Militia by themselves would be useless for the kind of warfare which we have at the present time, except that they could be used in supplement of the Regular infantry units. They have an establishment of 131,000 men, but their strength is only 94,000 men. They are deficient in a thousand officers, and their cost is going up. Ten years ago the cost was £14 per man; now it is £22; so that while they are steadily increasing in cost per head they are steadily decreasing in the efficiency of their units. Of their battalions, of which there are 124, forty-six are under 500 strong. But that does not disclose the worst feature

  1291
  of the organisation. Many battalions have enlisted youths who are only about seventeen years of age because they could not be taken into the Line; and these youths would be useless for war. If we had to send the Militia abroad, and if these youths volunteered to go, we could not, as a rule, send those who were under twenty; and as a large number are under twenty, the battalions are in reality much under their apparent strength. That is a deplorable state of things. That is a force which is not yielding anything like what you would expect from the men who compose it, and who, through no fault of their own, are condemned to impotence. The public spirit of the country gentlemen of this country about the state of the Militia shows the pains they still take to struggle with their difficulties, while it is impossible not to recognise the gallantry which the officers and men have shown in the past. It is painful to see that the nation has condemned the Militia to a state of things which steadily makes for the degradation and the incapacity of the force to be useful. When one asks for the causes one finds a simple explanation—namely, the greater necessity, almost the paramount importance, of the first line of the professional Army. The professional Army must be kept alive; and accordingly by sure and slow degrees the Militia have been made the hewers of wood and the drawers of water to the Regular forces. Lord Lansdowne in a debate not long ago said—
  "The Militia has been plundered at one end by the Line and encroached on at the other by the Volunteers."
  The War Office has been powerless to remedy this serious state of affairs. It is essential to the War Office to get recruits for the Regular Line. We get 12,000 recruits a year for the infantry of the Line from the Militia at present, and without the Militia we could not get them. These recruits go into the Militia young, and the Line takes them up when they reach the age at which they can go to the Line. The result is that under the existing system the War Office must control the Militia. It is impossible to get away from that, and if the Militia protests against it, the protest is met with the argument that the most important thing is to get the infantry of the Line sufficiently recruited,
  1292
  and if one has to suffer the Militia must go under. I think that the state of the Militia demonstrates the impossibility of organising three lines of which two shall be professional. The Militia do not come any more from the county only. They are recruited in all parts of the kingdom. They come to get a job. They are professional soldiers for the time they are engaged, and the result is that the tendency of the nation has been more and more to say that as we pay for these men, they must go where we most need them—the service of the Regular Line—and the conclusion we have come to is that the only solution of the Militia problem is one of two things; either the Militia must be available for drafts, or else they must revert once more to their old county place and give up their present professional substance. They must give up to the service of the Line the men who have been enlisted for six years, and who go out for a certain period every year and are paid while they are out as professional soldiers, and must look out for recruits—I will not say on a Volunteer basis, but on something better than a Volunteer' basis—men who give service not on a professional footing, but on a footing of voluntary service rendered to the nation and inspired by the spirit of the country in which they live. The Militia ought to go back to the position which it occupied at the end of the eighteenth century, before Pitt connected it as closely as he did with the Regular Line. If the Militia could go back to that kind of basis, there would be much to be said for it. After all, such a force as I am describing, a peace force required and to be prepared only for great emergencies, is a thing not that inspires the spirit of militarism, but that deepens the sense of responsibility. We should all be glad to see some interest in military affairs made possible for the agricultural labourers, who are cut off at present on the one hand from the Volunteers, and on the other hand from the Militia, where the period of service is too long for them. We should all be glad if the counties could go back to the old condition under which the country gentleman had the young labourers on his estate and round about working with him in his own voluntarily raised battalion. So the proposal of the Government which I shall develop in detail later, is that the Militia,

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  parting with their professional substance for the service of the Line to be used by machinery which conies later, shall take their cadres over into the second Line, and there, under a proper organisation, form part of the infantry of the second Line.
  Now I come to the Yeomanry, whom I can deal with very shortly because they are in a much more satisfactory position. They were reorganised in 1901. They have fifty-six corps, and their number is something over 26,000 of all ranks. Their cost is a little over £21 a head, and £5 for horse allowance, with 5s. 6d. a day paid to each man when training, the annual training extending over a period of from fourteen to eighteen days besides the preliminary training. On the other hand, they have no brigade organisation, no staff nor administrative service connected with them. If we came to war nobody would quite know where to put them. There, again, you have an illustration of the fashion in which our Auxiliary Forces, which ought to be our national second line, have grown up like mushrooms, without plan, without regard to efficiency or economy, with the result that a vast amount of public money has been thrown away by Ministry after Ministry, and very little added to the fighting strength of the nation, tested according to modern scientific standards. In the Yeomanry all one can say is that one has got here an element which may form the cavalry, or the nucleus of the cavalry, of the second line, and which may be adapted on such a footing as to make it render a far more immediate service than the infantry in their present condition could possibly perform.
  I come now to the Volunteers, the third element which is available for the second line, with an establishment of 338,000, and an actual strength of about 247,000. They cost the nation nearly £1,800,000. They have a certain amount of administrative services connected with them, the Army Medical and Army Service Corps, but these are altogether in insufficient proportions. Their organisation, I think, is probably the most confused thing we have in the British constitution. They are paid in twenty-two different ways. They get a capitation grant of 35s., which is practically a premium on the enlistment of inefficients. They have no supply organisation for
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  war. If they were at war the colonel, whose business it is to provide socks, clothes, ammunition, and everything else, would have to carry these things with him in his saddle-bags. The financial position of the commanding officers is deplorable. The unfortunate commanding officer of the Volunteer battalion is an even greater patriot than is popularly supposed. He risks not only his life, but his fortune. If he wants a drill hall for his corps and borrows money to enable him to build, the Commissioners lend him money, but make him personally liable. If he does not get a capitation grant and his corps fails then he has to make these things good. We propose to deal with this point drastically if the House will allow us. We propose to remove the financial liability from these commanding officers and set them free to do their work of commanding and training their corps. There is a Supplementary Estimate which I have put down in connection with this matter which looks as if it contained something very serious, but only contains something which is very innocent. I will explain it. By careful administration last year we saved a good deal of money which we did not spend. I went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and said, Here is the grand plan of the Government; it may go through or not. If it goes through, then it is absolutely right and essential that we should relieve these unfortunate commanding officers of this responsibility for public purposes, and make the halls free for the use of the second line. If, on the other hand, it does not go through, I said to my right hon. friend, I propose doing something which must remind him and myself of old days. We arranged to take a transfer—an equitable transfer—from the Public Works Loan Commissioners of their debt, paying them off £400,000 odd, owed to them for debts for Volunteer halls. In the Supplementary Estimates we ask the House only to sanction this transfer to the War Office. If the scheme goes through the money will go to a purpose on which, I think, we are mainly agreed. If not, no loss will be incurred by the State. At the present time of those who enlist in the Volunteer corps 80 per cent. are artisans. In the old days the Volunteer corps were a middle class organisation, and found nearly everything for themselves. To-day the case is different. I think it is much better if we are to have

  1295
  a real second line that we should be in earnest about it, and should find them equipment and endeavour to make the Volunteer element in the second line as real and efficient as we can; and that is what we propose to do. We propose to take a definite and easy mode of enlistment, very much like that of the Yeomanry, and that the Volunteer should go out, on proper notice being given, something like three months. In that way we should get security in his services for the amount we have spent upon him. I will deal with that when I come to what I have to say about the organisation of this second line.
  Of that organisation I wish to add this—that, having got these three elements, the Volunteers, the Yeomanry, and the Militia, and our problem being to convert them into a real second line, the first thing that is necessary is that we must do it thoroughly. No tinkering of this matter is of any use. We must have the different arms in their proper proportion, and we must follow as far as we can the standard and canons of modern organisation for war in determining the shape which the organisation should take. In order to get a proper organisation for war of all arms in their proper combination what is the obvious thing for us to do? I do not think there can be a doubt about it. It is—what has not yet beendone—to apply divisional organisation to the second line. The division is the only unit in which all arms are combined and in their proper proportion. A divisional organisation enables you to have a definite plan by which you can test and see whether each part of your forces is in proper condition. The General Staff have made a careful survey for this purpose, and they find that we have the materials available. It would be odd if it were not so; for between nineteen and twenty-four years of age there are upwards of a million young men available for the second line, after the requirements of the Navy and the Regular Army have been satisfied. Three hundred thousand would be within the number we have now in the Auxiliary Forces, and if properly organised they would be a force infinitely more useful than the present organisation, which has been condemned by eminent soldiers, to whom the Government has submitted consideration of it, as useless for
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  the purpose of modern military necessities. It is a hard condemnation, which makes, however, not the least reflection on the commanding officers or men of the Auxiliary Forces. It is the way in which we have let them drift into the present position without taking thought that has produced the sterility and impotence of their organisation and let it grow in a fashion which has in it neither plan nor reason. The General Staff in its survey has found that a divisional organisation is possible. As those interested in military matters in the House of Commons know, Great Britain is divided for purposes of military administration into twelve grouped regimental districts, each containing four or five counties, and several depôts. Each regimental district is under the command of the brigadier at present commanding the forces in each of those twelve grouped regimental districts. The General Staff has made a survey, with a view of seeing what they contained; and we find this remarkable result—each of them contains very nearly the materials for a division, and some of them contain a good deal more. Indeed, out of the Lancashire and London districts we ought to be able to get two divisions, and out of the others in nearly every case, a complete division out of the material we have ready to hand. Of course I cannot tell what the response to the new organisation will be; but if, as I believe, it appeals to the sentiment of the Auxiliary Forces, if, as I believe they will, the Militia, Yeomanry and Volunteer commanding officers rise to it, then I believe we shall get the men.
  I have occupied such little time as I have been able to spare from the somewhat heavy task in which I have been engaged in going about nominally and ostensibly to distribute prizes for Volunteers and making speeches, which I fear have somewhat bored the country, but really for the purpose of conferring with Volunteer commanding officers; and I tried to get into as close relations with commanding officers of Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers as possible. I found a recognition on all hands that the present state of things was deplorable, and a readiness to make an effort at amendment. I feel, of course, that in the division of opinion there are many commanding officers who will feel the

  1297
  change very much; and who may fight against the departure from their old organisation. I cannot tell. But not one of them fails to recognise, as much as we recognise, that if there is to be a real second line in this country sacrifices have to be made which may well be called for, because the interests of the nation must predominate over the interests of anything in the nation. The survey the General Staff has made shows that in each of the twelve grouped regimental districts in Great Britain—Ireland requiring separate treatment—there is material for a division exactly analogous to the divisions into which we have organised the first line—that is to say, a division of three brigades, each of which contain four battalions. London and Lancashire districts will give two. Scotland will give us two magnificent divisions. I have had to make up my mind between having three from Scotland, which would not have fitted into the scheme of the grouping of regimental districts, or having two very strong ones; and I was naturally attracted by the prospect of having a Highland and a Lowland division; and I hope we shall organise two divisions in Scotland at a higher strength than elsewhere We may well keep them at a higher strength, because Scotland is a part of the country which has fewer Regular troops of its own than any other part of the United Kingdom; and we have, on the other hand, a most magnificent surplus of second line material north of the Tweed.
  That being the organisation I should like to say something about it. The fourteen divisions of Infantry, with three brigades of four battalions each, give the equivalent of forty-two brigades of four battalions, or 168 battalions. The existing Yeomanry if they are taken in for this purpose give us an equivalent of fourteen brigades of Cavalry, with the necessary divisional element. There are fifty-six regiments of Yeomanry, as I have said. We can get our fourteen brigades there if they will respond to our appeal. The Artillery we require for the Territorial force is perhaps the point on which there is the largest deficiency. The Volunteers, where armed at all, are armed with ridiculous and obsolete guns. But on taking stock we find that the old field guns exist in large numbers in very good condition and can be converted into quick-
  1298
  firers at comparatively little expense. A battery can be converted for somewhat under £1,000 to make it complete. The result is that we propose to arm the Territorial Artillery with good fifteen-pounders, and convert these as rapidly as we can into quick-firers. We have taken an estimate of £10,000 for the purpose of making a beginning, and thereby we hope to organise the Artillery of the second line, so that it may be real Artillery proportionate to the other arms. Our advisers tell us that these old field guns will be very good indeed, all excellent field guns and admirably adapted to the second line. Our plan is never to allow the second line to have obsolete weapons; but as we take weapons away from the first line, where we must always be keeping up to the highest standard, to pass then on to the second line, so that although they are the second best they shall be a close second best, and not a remote second best. Economically, and by degrees, we shall thus always be raising the armament of the second line. An army cannot go to war without its non-combatant units, without its army service corps, its army medical corps, its engineers, its telegraphists, its railway men. Where do you get a more magnificent field for drawing these elements from than in the second line? You have got the highest technical skill among the very men who belong to your Volunteer corps. No finer Engineers than those commanded by Colonel Crompton, or those in some of the Engineer corps in the North, are to be found. I doubt whether the Engineers of the line can compete with them in knowledge and intelligence. You have among them a great reserve not only of men, but also of officers of the very highest technical skill. And what is true of them is true of the Army Service Corps and the Army Medical Corps—magnificent corps—and the other technical services required for the mobilisation of an army. Nothing can be done with an army going to war without proper transport and supply, proper medical equipment, proper technical and scientific arrangements. Wireless telegraphy, the telephone, every modern invention from the balloon downwards, is brought into requisition in these days, and without its technical services an Army is incomplete. When we build

  1299
  up our second line we shall have in view the first line and its requirements in these respects, and take some of these non-combatant men, and train them in the second line, making them supernumerary to their corps, bringing them over along what I may call a bridge from the second line to the first on mobilisation, so that we may get more men for the first line at much less expense than if we placed them on a professional footing. In nations where they have compulsory service they take men according to their trade, so that we should be doing exactly what the great continental nations do. What is more natural than that we should come to the nation itself in the second line, which is the home army of peace, but prepared for emergency, and ask them to prepare for those services which they can give at much less cost than in the organisation of our first line? The House will see how this proposal to organise in two lines, having a definite relation one to another, over what we call bridges from the second to the first line, substantially promises not only to promote efficiency, but also to dimish cost. What we hope to get is fourteen divisions of the second line as complete in every detail as the first line.
  Coming to the terms of service, the Volunteers hitherto could go out at fourteen days notice in time of peace; but should war break out there was for them no such beneficent provision as existed in the case of the Regular, the Militia, or the Yeomanry. They, after a certain time, had finished their service, although their term might be prolonged for a short period for war; but the wretched Volunteer, once caught in the trap of war, was compelled to remain there, so far as any legal power to retire was concerned, until death released him. What we propose is that the recruits of the second line shall come in on the footing that will meet their civilian conditions in a more definite and more reasonable manner than with the Volunteers. It cannot be a long term as in the case of Regulars, nor yet so short a term as in the arrangements with the Volunteers. The Yeomanry are, after all, a sort of Volunteers, though they come in because they wish to serve the State. The Yeomanry force affords us the best type for our purpose, and we propose that the new line shall enlist their recruits on
  1300
  something akin to the terms on which the Yeomanry come in at the present time. Now, as regards the appropriate period, we propose that a man should come in between eighteen and twenty-four years of age, and that he may undertake to train in four years, subject to this, that if he is minded to go, by reason of shifting of occupation, of his getting married or something of that kind, he can do so, on giving three months notice, and paying a small sum of something like £5 compensation to the State for the amount spent on his training. It is quite right that the State should get some security for the money it spends on recruits, but we have tried to make the terms sufficiently elastic to meet the social necessities of the recruits. I do not want to dwell on this part of the subject, because it is all to be embodied in a Bill which I hope to introduce next week and on which a discussion will probably arise. I, therefore, pass from it now with this reference, that if we get them to come in for the four years training, some of them may wish to stay, and then they would cost less, because they would be able to do with less training and would form a reserve line of the corps. I have never thought the word "Reserve" appropriate for a body whose training is intermittent, but if you are to use them as a reserve they will be men who have taken sufficient training to remain on the strength, or at any rate to remain supernumaries of their corps. In order to keep up to their level of training they will take much less annual camp training than the soldier of the second line must necessarily take in his early days.
  We propose to organise this force upon the county basis, and the reason why we do so is that the county is the most convenient administrative area for the purpose. Under the county basis, we hope to find that we shall be able to affiliate the rifle clubs, which are somewhat unorganised at the present time, unconnected as they are with corps. We propose to bring them into definite relations with the battalions of this second line, in each county, and to make these rifle clubs places where the recruit who has gone in for four years training may practice musketry, and where a man who has gone through his four years may keep up his musketry. We hope for great assistance from the rifle clubs,

  1301
  if we make them adjuncts of the organisation instead of part of it, and so bring them into the discharge of useful and necessary functions.
  Then as regards the period of annual training, the men will go into camp, or into what is equivalent to camp, much as they do at the present time, and we hope to bring them into close contact with the Regulars on those occasions. The camp will be for a period of fifteen days wherever that is possible. Many of them will not be able to give so long a time, many will not be able to give more than eight days, but we will take them, rather than not have them, for that period. Where we can get these men to come forward we hope that they will come for fifteen days and thereby get substantial preparation. But there is another feature on which we rely still more than upon the amount of annual training and the preliminary training, and that is that we propose to make it part of the terms on which a second line soldier engages himself, should there be a great mobilisation and the nation be plunged into war, not to go abroad, because his service is for the United Kingdom only, but that he is to be embodied to train for war. We propose that if a great war were to break out, and the strength of the nation was called on, measured by the necessity of calling out all the Regular Reserve, the second line should be mobilised in its units, and be embodied for war training for six months. And our belief is that at the end of that time (and in this we are confirmed by a high military authority) not only would they be enormously more efficient than the Volunteer or Yeomanry Force is at the present time, but that they would be ready, finding themselves in their units, to say—"We wish to go abroad and take our part in the theatre of war, to tight in the interests of the nation and for the defence of the Empire." It might be that they would not only go in their battalions, but in their brigades, and even divisions. If given the occasion I do not know that there is any limit to the spirit of our people when the necessity is upon them. At any rate they will have that opportunity. Our principle is purely voluntary enlistment. Compulsion is remote from our mind, and I trust it will always be so. Nor do we wish to encourage anything like excessive military spirit, and we feel this,
  1302
  that we can best prevent these contingencies by making use of the voluntary contribution of the nation of its manhood and its strength, on such a footing, that if war break out, their engagement will become a serious responsibility, thereby making, them, on the one hand, a source of strength to the nation, and, on the other hand, making them disinclined light to take upon themselves the perils and horrors of war which would confront them. We think that this plan of embodying the second line for mobilisation for war training, and leaving them free to volunteer, is something which will give a sufficient sense of seriousness, and that there is not a man who joins but will feel disinclined to omit any effort in his power to prevent a state of things that might separate him from his wife and family and home, and make him compelled to take upon himself the serious responsibilities of war. The engagement would therefore be to enlist for four years, with power to go out after three months notice, and to be embodied in time of war for six months training. That is the very essence of the proposals for increasing the efficiency of the second line, and that is the only way in which we can hope to give to it the real character which it ought to possess. In that way we hope to produce a real second line.
  Such a force, of course, will require to be instructed in time of peace, during the intervals between camp and camp, and there we think the county organisation lends itself to the purpose. We shall have instructors who will go from centre to centre on their bicycles, gathering in the young men belonging to the corps, on the village green in summer, and in the schoolhouse in winter, and giving them instruction on a more scientific footing than the Volunteer receives to-day, and than the Yeomanry has at the present time. In that way we hope to raise a force on a county basis which will be a real contribution to the second line. The great feature is the six months training for war mobilisation. Hitherto the puzzle has been how to get a sufficient training for a Volunteer second line fitted for serious duty. A man may not be able to undertake training for such a long period as six months. We have proceeded on the footing of getting very much greater efficiency than anything we ever

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  had in the past. The duties of the force will be, shortly, to garrison the naval ports, and to take the place of Regular troops and garrison Artillery and garrison Engineers, who will probably go abroad on a great mobilisation. I say a great mobilisation, because although it may be unlikely, yet it is a sort of thing for which we must be prepared. In any great mobilisation the garrison fortresses would be manned, as, indeed, at present they would be, by Auxiliary troops. The second duty will be to repel raids. There has been a great deal of discussion about the Blue Water school. For my part I never thought that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the late Prime Minister, when he made his speech about the raids being very small, intended to say that a second line would be of no advantage; on the contrary, I think he meant to convey that if the Navy were kept up to its strength so as to command the sea, we could be content to allow a second line to slumber in time of peace, if only we were adequately prepared for war. Raids might be serious things, and it is always possible that a considerable force might be got over. Therefore, although we rest on the Blue Water system, I do not think there is any less necessity to bring about a state of things in which our second line should be a reality. The third function will be the one I have described—a purely voluntary function. The undertaking will be to serve only in the United Kingdom, but such is the strength and spirit of the nation, of which we had an example at the time of the South African war, for instance, that I myself do not doubt that if this second line was embodied for mobilisation in time of war in its units, they would express their wish, at the conclusion of the six months, to go out in large numbers to the theatre of war, possibly in divisions, and so serve for that expansion and that support of which the Norfolk and the Elgin Commissions said so much. Of course, our proposal is to organise them in units, and we do think there is a possibility of expansion. It may be said that it is speculation, that the Auxiliary forces will come forward and respond to the appeal to organise themselves. I admit it is speculation, but one is bound to take some chance in these matters and make some appeal. It is the last effort to get forward upon the sort of line which we have to follow, and I believe it
  1304
  is because our people have objected to take compulsory service, because they have always said that they are ready, if appealed to in the right spirit, to respond to the appeal, that the Auxiliary Forces will come forward in numbers even in excess of what we are asking, and give us a force which in time of peace need not exceed a quarter of a million, and in time of war would reach the strength of 300,000.
  For the purpose of working out the problem how to get from each county its quota for the divisions, for the group of regimental districts, I come now to the new piece of machinery, which I will only shortly describe, for the obvious reason that it is the subject of the Bill I shall have to introduce. We propose to create a military committee in each county, composed of commanding officers of Auxiliary Forces, with the addition of such elements as will be necessary to bring the Regular Forces into touch with the Auxiliary Forces. We must, therefore, have the General Staff, through its brigadiers, represented upon the associations. The lord lieutenant of the county will in each case be the president of these county associations. I will tell the House why. It is not merely for the old technical and constitutional reason that the lord lieutenant is the military representative of the Crown in the county. It is not merely that we desire to turn him a little from his present magisterial to his old military functions. But it is that we feel that he is the link with the landowners of the county, and it is from the landowners we hope to get much help and great saving to the public in our new organisation. We need manœuvre areas; we need rifle ranges. The other day, in organising the great cavalry manœuvres in Scotland, it was my duty to make an appeal to the great landowners in that country; but without pressing the appeal I am glad to say they came forward most generously and offered us more land than we needed for those particular manœuvres. I believe that if you take the country gentlemen in the right way, if you get them to interest themselves in this new organisation, they will respond to your appeal, they will make their lands available in every way, and show that their public spirit is as strong as ever it was in days of yore. Therefore, we think it very important

  1305
  that the lord lieutenant, representing the country gentlemen from whom we hope so much for the good of the State, should be the president of the county association. Then we propose that the constitution of these county associations should vary with each county. We call them "associations" because that is a good old term invented by Oliver Cromwell. They represented in those days functions which we expect the new bodies to fulfil in our time. We want them to organise the county quota of the division, and to do the administrative work of the forces in the division. Therefore, we propose that in each county the association should be constituted by a scheme worked out by the Army Council. There will be a different scheme for each county, and it will be possible under that scheme to get proper representation of labour as well as of capital, for we must keep ourselves in close relationship with the artisan classes as well as the employing classes in the working out of this scheme. The functions of these associations are military functions. But even so they are functions not connected with command and training, which we propose to separate altogether from administration. Administration means the raising of the force, the finding of supplies, the provision of the necessities for a campaign, the payment of money, the furnishing of weapons, and so on. The command of the troops and their training will be delegated to the commanding officers of the new units—the officers who correspond with the existing Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteer commanding officers. They will be under their brigadiers and their divisional commanders, with their general in command as their supreme chief. But the administration, the spending of the money, which will be furnished by the War Office—for we make no appeal to the rates—on estimates carefully scrutinised, will be in the hands of the associations, who will employ it in providing their corps with all necessary equipments. Thus the commanding officers will be fully relieved not only of debts incurred by their corps, but of the burden of administration which at present weighs heavily upon them. In short, the duty of the county associations will be to look after the business side of the second-line troops of the county, and they will have, in addition to the lord lieutenant as
  1306
  president, business men as chairman and secretary, who will carefully deal with, all matters delegated to them by the Army Council. The chief duty, therefore, of the county association will be to re-arrange the existing Auxiliary Forces within the county area, and get them into such a shape that the county may supply the quota which it is to provide to the divisional organisation. The quota will necessarily differ. One county may be strong in cavalry, another in artillery, and a third in infantry. The thing is that the authorities should study the idiosyncrasies of each locality and take what the locality can most readily and easily give. Of course, the new force must be represented at the War Office, and our proposal is that there should be a committee to represent the interests of this Home or Territorial Army. But that will not be the only connection of the troops of the county with headquarters. Who is to command these divisions? There will come a time when, no doubt, they will be commanded by civilians who have so trained themselves that they are able to control great bodies of troops. I look forward to a time when the brigadiers, at all events, and possibly the divisional generals, will come from the ranks of the Auxiliary Forces. But we want to make this thing a scientific reality in the first instance, and therefore we think it better that we should put on the very best men we have, and men who will give their whole time to the work. Accordingly, to begin with, we propose that each of the fourteen divisions shall be commanded by a Regular major-general, who will give his whole time to his duties and who will have his Regular general staff officer, and his Regular administrative staff officer. The brigadiers may in time, no doubt, be got from the Territorial Force. We shall start, however, with the existing brigadiers; and we hope that by degrees we shall make this force more and more a really civilian military force. This, then, is the second line, which is to be behind the first line, and, as the House will see, it is a line which, if our hopes are realised, will have its proper proportion of all arms; and in the event of mobilisation will be ready to be called out for its six months training for war. Of course, this is not a standing Army. It is rather the last resource of the nation in a time of great emergency.

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  I now come back to the field force, the first line, because I am now in a position to place it before the House and explain what we require for the organisation of six great divisions of three brigades. We require for the six divisions, so far as infantry is concerned, sixty-six Line battalions, and six of Guards. Of course, I am now only speaking of the Home field force, and not of the fifty-two battalions in India, and twenty-five battalions in the Colonies, which remain as at present. We actually have at home seventy-one battalions of infantry and eight of Guards. Thus we have a surplus of five battalions of infantry and two of Guards; and that notwithstanding that we made a reduction last summer of nine battalions—eight of infantry and one of Guards. The House will now see why I made these reductions. I am coming to great deficiencies and gaps in the first line which I have had to fill. At the present moment, out of the 227,000 men we have at home, counting the Reserve, it would not be possible to mobilise more than 100,000 men, for want of ammunition columns, administration services, transport, Army Medical Corps, and so forth. Never has the Army been subjected to such a stocktaking as in the last twelve months. It was carried out by the soldiers themselves with great zeal. We have found that our first line is full of gaps, and we feel that our main duty is to fill up those gaps in such a way as to make that first line efficient. I doubt very much whether you can mobilise 100,000 men at the present time. I know that a foreign General Staff—I do not know what the German view is; I am talking of another—consider that we could not mobilise nearly as many. But, at any rate, you cannot put it higher than 100,000. If these plans succeed, we shall be able to mobilise 160,000. We require sixty-six battalions; we have got seventy-one; so that there are five left. If it should be necessary to take off more, I am well within what I have to keep up. So much for infantry, of which we have a surplus.
  Now I come to cavalry. We require four brigades, or twelve regiments. I ought to remind the House that we have published the new organisation of our cavalry, which has been completed. The cavalry now works in three sections. There is one section,
  1308
  called strategical cavalry, which operates away in advance of the line of the Army in the field; it operates not only directly on the enemy, but may operate on his flank. Its purpose is to keep in touch with the enemy, to make him disclose himself, and to make reconnaissances on a sufficient scale to locate the enemy for the purposes of the plans of the general commanding the main body of the Army. It cannot do the screen work, for which we have a second section, which works with mounted infantry and with a certain amount of artillery. This is the true screen, to use the old fashioned expression, between the main body of the army and the enemy. Then the third section of the cavalry is the divisional cavalry, which does the work which has to be done with the troops and at headquarters. For the strategical cavalry we require four brigades, or twelve regiments, and two brigades of horse artillery. Military members know that a brigade of horse artillery has only two batteries; that means, therefore, four batteries of horse artillery. The second section, the screen cavalry, consists of two brigades, according to the general staff plans, each consisting of two battalions of mounted infantry and one cavalry regiment, and, operating with each brigade, one battery of horse artillery. The third section of the cavalry consists of fifteen squadrons of Yeomanry, and they are to form the divisional cavalry for the future. They are Yeomanry who are supernumerary to the establishment of the Yeomanry in their present corps. Each regiment is to furnish us with a troop, and we get fifteen squadrons in that way which are to go out on mobilisation with the Regulars and operate as divisional cavalry. To meet the twelve regiments which we want for the strategical cavalry we have thirteen regiments of cavalry and a competent regiment of Household Cavalry. That gives us two regiments over—just what is wanted in forming the second section of cavalry. Then for the Yeomanry we have got the fifteen squadrons, so that as regards cavalry we are just right.
  In the case of Artillery the tale is not so satisfactory. According to the final working out of the requirements of the General Staff for the six divisions, the

  1309
  Artillery which are wanted to make the infantry of these divisions effective to conduct its general operations—I am talking of field, not horse artillery—will be as follows:—The artillery consists of fifty-four batteries of field artillery, twelve batteries of howitizers, and six batteries of heavy 60-pounders. I am glad to say these last are the most magnificent guns, as far as my judgment goes, I have ever seen; they are complete and are giving the utmost satisfaction. These are manned by garrison artillerymen; they have a range of something like 13,000 yards, and are of 5 inch diameter. That makes seventy-two batteries in all wanted for the six divisions. We have ninety-nine batteries of field artillery and six of heavy guns, making 105 in all. Therefore we have a surplus in artillery of guns over what is required for the divisions, a surplus of thirty-three batteries. On the other hand we are very short of the ammunition columns to man them. The House will realise that artillery organisation, owing to the introduction of quick-firing guns, is a wholly different thing from what it used to be. You have a battery with its men intrenched in their pits, you have the shrapnel bursting overhead, so that the men serving the guns are in the greatest peril, and you require the very highest trained men you can get. They have a certain amount of ammunition in each battery, but it soon runs out with the modern quick-firer, and they have to depend on the next source of supply—the brigade ammunition column. That is a small one, and is to bring up the ammunition from the rear, and it brings it up with the aid of men a large proportion of whom are drivers. These drivers have to come under fire, and, therefore, must be highly trained. The particular question which the general staff has under consideration is as to what extent in the brigade ammunition column you can bring in Militia-trained men. We are considering that, and have not come to a final decision upon it. I have not, therefore, been able to do what I intimated I hoped I should be able to do—to substitute to a moderate extent for certain at least of our Regular artillerymen 2,000 or 3,000 artillery men trained on a Militia basis. I wanted these men, not for serving guns, but as drivers bringing up ammunition
  1310
  in the brigade ammunition column. Whether this can be done or not remains to be seen. The closest investigation is going on, because we think this is a matter of such seriousness that we ought not to run any risk. My own belief is that it can be done to some extent, but I think it right to go very cautiously in this matter. We must know first exactly how far we can go, and consequently I have not reduced a single Regular artilleryman at present. The shortage is due to the three-years system, which has made it impossible to find the drafts. The surplus batteries which we do not want for the divisional organisation we are going to use as training batteries in which to train men for the divisional ammunition column. Of course training batteries do not require so many horses as Regular batteries for service in the field. The training batteries will have a lower establishment of horses and men, but we have not reduced the horses in the Regular batteries. We have placed some of the Regular batteries on a four-gun establishment in time of peace, but that is done by other Powers, and of course when we have only a four-gun establishment we do not use all the horses at one time, but we have the same number of horses available to complete the war strength. At the present time we require a considerable number of men for the divisional ammunition column, that is the column which takes the place of what used to be called the "park," which was an organisation adapted more to the Army Corps than to the division. The more mobile divisional ammunition column which never comes into he firing zone has been substituted for the old park. It is the brigade ammunition column that takes the ammunition brought up by the divisional ammunition column to the battery. It is hoped to get a very large part of these divisional ammunition columns on a militia basis. It is not a question of reducing, because they do not exist at present. All told, using up every man, we could only at the present moment mobilise forty-two batteries for the service of the Regular force out of the seventy-two which we require, and that is one of the reasons why it is that we could not put into the field more than

  1311
  100,000 men. To mobilise seventy-two batteries, to provide ammunition columns, brigade and divisional, we require 39,000 men. Of these we have available 23,000 on the present Regular establishment. We lack 16,000, and have to get them, and perhaps to get them by converting the Militia Garrison Artillery, and by other methods, and training them for the service of the Regular artillery. That we hope to do by taking the surplus thirty-three batteries, which have got all their valuable reserve of guns, and turning them into training batteries located in different parts, of the country. These will serve the double purpose of forming a training school for the drafts and of training the artillery officers and non-commissioned officers of the second line.
  Now I come to the deficiencies in transport, for the deficiencies of the Army Service Corps are equally formidable. I believe that they constitute a more formidable part of the difficulty in mobilisation at the present moment than even the Artillery. On the other hand, these deficiencies are more easily supplied on the militia basis. We have worked out the deficiencies under every section of the Army. We find that for the six divisions we require for transport alone in he head Army Service Corps 14,800 men. We have some 12,500 of those, including 9,000 Reservists, a deficit of 2,500. We feel that we ought to get not only that deficit, but a considerable proportion of the others from territorially trained men, from the civilian element. Because, after all, what is the work of the kind of men who render services of these kinds? They are bakers, butchers, drivers, smiths, every kind of men who render non-combatant services. We, therefore, feel that there is a considerable prospect of economy ahead by doing what the Continental nations do, that is, going to the man who is practised and trained, and to get from him, for a small retaining fee, an undertaking to come up for mobilisation and practice his trade in the Army Service Corps. The deficiency is 2,300 under the head of transport, and under the head of supply it is 1,100. In the Army Medical Department the deficiency is very serious indeed. We
  1312
  require 8,500 men to look after the wounded in the hospitals. We have 4,700, including 2,000 Reservists, so that the deficit is 3,800. Well, we see our way through negotiations for replacing a large portion of these from civilian sources, where there are those who take a great interest in these matters. I do not forget, either, that on mobilisation we require nurses to go to the hospitals. They are an essential part of the organisation for war. Various schemes are under consideration, and I cannot speak with confidence yet. The whole topic of nurses is one that I approach with diffidence. I find it one of the most difficult that I have had to deal with. The Army Ordnance Cores is a small body which looks after the hardware stores, and of these we have sufficient, and they might be put on a militia basis. The veterinary deficiency is very serious. We require 800 for mobilisation, and we have only 136. Of engineers we require 7,500, and we have with the reserve an actual surplus and a splendid additional reserve, too, in the second line. In officers there is a very serious deficiency indeed. I calculate the deficiency of officers, including wastage, for mobilisation on this footing. We require for six months 10,200. We have 4,500 and 1,500 in the reserve. There is a deficiency of at least 3,800 and probably of over 4,000.
  Then there is one other deficiency at the present moment. Besides the field or expeditionary force, we require a striking force. Without general mobilisation, we require a small force to send out at short notice. Thus, last year we were face to face with a crisis on the Egyptian frontier. There were rumours which made us very uneasy, and it might have been necessary to take steps at very short notice. Our difficulty at the present time is that our striking force is rendered very inadequate by the shortage in the number of available Reservists. Therefore the A reserve has been organised; but it consists of only 5,000 men, who are taken in the first year after they have retired from the colours. But not enough have come up to make up the 5,000. We propose, therefore, by a provision in the Bill which I shall introduce, to increase the number of the

  1313
  A reserve, and also the time in which they may be obtained, so that we may create an element which will enable us to mobilise a striking force of larger dimensions, and capable of more rapid mobilisation. The plans of the General Staff as to the dimensions of that force have not yet been completed. It comes to this, that we have all these lacunœ disclosed as the result of the stocktaking which we have initiated.
  Now I want to speak of the remedies. In the case of the infantry, we have to supply in the first place the wastage of war. It is true that we have a surplus of infantry, but that is of units which we do not want to break up. Therefore we must have something to supply drafts for the wastage of war. The Militia cannot be used as mere draft-finding units; and therefore we propose to take their substance and organise it. Some organisation for training the drafts is absolutely necessary. In the South African War there was the spectacle of bodies of 2,000 men being trained together by inexperienced officers. What we want is to get an efficient machinery to provide these drafts. The wastage we propose to provide for by certain new cadres which we call into existence. The House must not be alarmed. We propose to create seventy-four new battalions behind the seventy-four pairs of battalions now existing. These battalions will not add an additional man to the establishment, because they are only to train the substance that was in the Militia before. They will be training battalions only. They will have a considerable staff of officers, Regular and Reserve, attached to them. They will each of them train from 500 to 600 men, but they will not train them all at ones. We propose to take men and train them until we have upon the list of the battalions, liable to come up on mobilisation and to go abroad, 500 to 600 men, who will serve as a reservoir from which drafts can be obtained for the Regular battalions; and the effect of setting up these third battalions is that the existing depots will be absorbed and merged. There are great advantages over the Militia, in respect of the officers and men who will be trained
  1314
  in these new battalions belonging to the Regular line. In the first place, the men in these battalions will be under engagement to go abroad; and, in the second place, we shall be in a position to supply drafts to make good wastage. In the third place, these battalions will expand and take in the recruits who flow in under any great national stress to make up the number of drafts to supply the wastage of war. In the last place, they will have more Regular officers than has hitherto been the case. They will have as their function to train those special Reservists, those civilians enlisted on a non-Regular basis, who are to take their training very much as the Militia do now. During the past year we have had the advantage of two interesting experiments. One was our own. We have been training twenty battalions of Militia experimentally, and we have found that it has not only been very popular and successful, but we have reached a class of the population where we have done a great deal of good. The other experiment, conducted under the auspices of Colonel Pollock, has shown how much may be effected by six months training. We propose to take these young men at the age of seventeen, and we hope to get from them 12,000 recruits for the line annually, and also the requisite, supply to meet the wastage of war of trained men. They will engage to enlist for some six years, and come up for fifteen days in the year. This nucleus or training battalion will thus train non-Regular or special Reservists to supply the drafts for the Regular Army; but they will also, as they have a great supply of officers, form, we hope, the training school in which the officers and non-commissioned officers of the second line will get their training. They will be distributed about the country, and we hops in this way to get a better elementary training for the officers of the second line. The higher training must be done in instructional schools organised by the General Staff and working in conjunction with the commander of the command, but the elementary training we hope to be able to give in these nucleus training battalions. These local training schools will have a locality from which

  1315
  they will not move. They will not be battalions which will ever be as such mobilised into actual fighting battalions, but they will be training battalions from which provisional or rather composite battalions will be drawn on stress of war.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: They will never go abroad.
  MR. HALDANE: No; so far as they remain merely training battalions, they will never go abroad. [An HON. MEMBER: Do you pay them?] Oh yes, just like the Militia. They have the training and get the pay. They will form mobilisation centres. The Regulars will recruit there; but, instead of training at the depots, they will, as a rule, we hope, go at once to the second or home battalions. We should like to give up the training of line recruits in the small depots. I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite will agree with me in this, that trying to train in small depots is no use, and we propose to send recruits to the home battalions as far as we can in the future, and to keep these new battalions for the purpose of depots for the training of special Reservists. Their staff will consist, besides the half-pay colonel, who will come up when he is wanted, of a major and four captains. When the recruits come in, in large numbers in time of war, and when these battalions expand, they will remove to the barracks which are rendered vacant by troops going abroad, and these officers will go with them. What we hope is that they will form great double-company battalions—four double companies—each of which will be commanded by a regular captain, and that they will form a training school for finding drafts for war much better than anything we have had up to the present time.
  To sum up the effect. The Militia cadre, of which there are generally two staffs at each of the depots, will shed its substance, which will go into these new training battalions, which are to be trained by Regular officers. Militia officers will belong to the reserve of officers attached to the battalions if they so wish, and those who do not so wish will go to the second line and take their cadres there, and, on a
  1316
  county basis, enlist recruits of a different kind, who will now be I hope, on the footing and trained on the terms I have described. These terms, with their county basis, make the organisation of what is the second line no longer analogous to the old Volunteer organisation, but analogous to the true Militia basis such as existed before Pitt began that process by which they lost their county character. The conversion will, as I have said, be a gradual process, but the machinery I can describe with greater appropriateness on introducing the Bill than it is possible for me to do at the present time. Ireland has got no Volunteers, and therefore for Ireland we have had to make special provision. She has got a splendid Militia, and we propose to make these third battalions just as we have in the other case. We propose to put third battalions behind each of the eight Irish Regular pairs, and we propose that, while that third battalion resembles the training battalion of regiments in Great Britain, there shall be behind it at least one battalion, and probably two battalions, in four or five regiments formed by the existing Militia taking service under the new terms for special Reservists, that is to say, engaging to go abroad and to find drafts—but embodied in their unit and kept as a sort of Militia. Observe how valuable a dozen of these battalions will be to us, and we hope to get them by amalgamating and bringing together the Militia cadres which exist now. We shall be able to send them to relieve Colonial battalions. It may be that these Irish Militia battalions will have to be asked for that purpose. We may think it necessary to take some of them as A Reservists of the new class or we may think that sufficient of them may volunteer to enable us to get the necessary number. Generally the Regular Army will in the training battalions have, we hope, a self-contained infantry organisation and will not depend any more on the Militia, which will have reverted to its county basis and taken a new class of recruits. Looked at in the concrete, I will, by way of illustration, to make it more intelligible to the House, take the county of Norfolk. Norfolk has got a famous regiment of two battalions. At this moment one is at Bloemfontein and the other is at Warley, in Essex.

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  Under the new system the depot will be at Norwich, but it will be a depot for training only special Reservists. As the recruits come in they go off to Warley to be trained for the home battalion, while Norwich will be training from 120 to 150 men at a time to keep up the reservoir of 500 or 600 men who are on the roll and who will be called up on mobilisation. The six days musketry will be given where convenient in the neighbourhood of the training battalion. The present staff consists of two Militia staffs and four officers, one of whom is a major, and sixty-one non-commissioned officers and men, who form a third staff. For the future the Regular staff will be enlarged, and part of the Militia will have been brought in, some as Reserve officers of the second line, and consequently we shall get one strong staff. The nucleus of the battalion, which, upon war, will remain a training battalion, will go on expanding so as to throw off a large provisional battalion of trained drafts. That seems to us to be a very much more satisfactory organisation than that of the present time. The Reserve officers will, of course, become Regular officers, and as such they will have their function and play their part. I have spoken now of what I call the first of the bridges—the bridge between the first line and the nation—and these bridges are the road by which we wish to bring the Army much more closely to the nation than has hitherto been the case, and if possible to interest the nation more closely in it, and make it feel more closely that it is its own possession.
  The next I come to is the artillery. The shortage in artillery at the present time is not due to reduction but is due to the three years system. That system produces the wrong Reservists, and we are beginning to feel the evil of a short time with the colours and a long time in the Reserves. I have had this year to place a sum of£4,000 on the Estimates for the training of the Reservists under the three years system. I have described the ammunition columns, and I have spoken of the thirty-six training batteries which we propose to organise in the shape of twelve training brigades in different parts of the country. These are to be local
  1318
  artillery schools, just as we have got local infantry schools. They will also serve s as depots for the purpose of Regular recruits. We have reduced the number of depots for the Regular artillery, but we propose to add these new twelve training schools or brigades, which also will be localised, territorialised, and which will train men on what I may call the special service basis—civilians who give a certain time to military work and who are prepared to take an engagement to come up at once on mobilisation. We propose to train, on that footing, the whole of the artillery which goes with the divisional ammunition columns. We hope in that way not only to be able to get a divisional ammunition column but possibly also to provide part of the brigade ammunition column. At least, we shall be providing a number of people available for the artillery. The establishment of each of these brigade schools will consist of a colonel, three majors, and six other officers, and about 150 non-commissioned officers and men and 125 horses. These training brigades will have a small number of guns, probably two to each battery—at the most four—and it will in that way be able to train as large a number of men as can get an efficient training. In addition, just as the infantry third battalions form an infantry school battalion where officers and non-commissioned officers of the second line are to get some training, so these will be local schools which will train second line officers and non-commissioned officers. On mobilisation they will also train the drafts, and, as each has got the whole of its guns in reserve, the country will have the comfortable feeling that it is not denuded of its artillery, and that there are field guns of the most modern pattern which, I have no doubt, will be admirably used by some of the new Territorial artillery-men whom we propose to train up under the new system which brings the new artillery organisation into the second line.
  I now come to the cavalry. The cavalry organisation is one of the most difficult problems which we have. There has been a vast divergence of opinion, some wishing for large depots to train the cavalry, others wishing to train up the

  1319
  cavalry with the regiments. Many believe the best training is the training which is given with the regiment; but be that as it may, what we have to do is much simpler than in the other case; what we have to do is to train these fifteen squadrons of Yeomanry, a troop being furnished by each regiment, who are to form the third section of our cavalry in our new cavalry organisation. For that a certain amount of local training is wanted, and we shall have to organise local cavalry schools on a modest scale. We shall have to organise them so as to give that training. Then there is the Army Service Corps. Just as we have brought across the Yeomanry squadron from the Yeomanry, so we propose to bring from the second line men who have engaged for mobilisation, and who have been paid a moderate sum for doing so. We have negotiated these things, but I do not wish to go into details about it just at this stage. We hope to get an Army Service Corps organisation for the territorial force, and we hope also to supply the deficits of 2,300 in transport and 1,100 in supply, of which I have spoken, in the six divisional organisations. These men will, of course, be supernumerary. We shall be able to bring them up to Aldershot for any extra training that they want, or possibly it may be done locally. This is being worked out under the eye of Sir William Nicholson, the Quartermaster-General, with Sir Edward Ward and General Clayton, both of whom have great experience of Army Service Corps organisation. In the case of the Army medical element there again we have to have our special bridge between the two lines, and the special contingent that we want for the field force is some 331 medical officers, thirty quartermasters, and 4,400 men, which will provide for wastage and give us enough to make up the deficiency which we require for mobilisation of the first line. We propose to organise—and the negotiations for it are in progress—a large territorial Army Medical Corps analogous to the Regular Army Medical Corps. The British Association have already taken a great interest in it, and have suggested that we should organise our corps not merely locally but as a great corps—just as the engineers and the artillery are
  1320
  great corps—organised under the Director-General of Army Medical Corps. We have accepted that suggestion and are going to organise one great Army Medical Corps, and we hope in that way to get a very large number of people connected with the medical profession to take an interest in the Army medical branch of the service, both Regular and second line. In that fashion we hope to get both officers and men who will go out on mobilisation. I may say that we entertain no doubt that we shall be able to succeed to some extent in that, and we think to the full extent of our desires. As regards the engineers, we have got enough engineers for the Regular Forces—we have even a surplus; and it is a great asset to the nation that we should have the magnificent technical corps that we have in the second line and that we do not propose to cut down—on the contrary, we propose to organise that element rather strongly in the second line forces, and thereby have a reserve of strength in case of emergency. I doubt very much whether there is any better class for working in the field, even under fire, than you can get in the highly-educated men who are to be found in some of the corps in various parts of the country. In all these cases these men, so far as we want to supply deficiencies in mobilisation, will get a retaining fee. They will get, of course, a handsome bonus on mobilisation, and they will be paid at Army Service rates while they are out for training; and generally we shall adapt the terms of their service to the requirements of their position. I am getting towards the end of my task. It is almost impossible to shorten it, but I am trying to condense.
  Now I want to touch on another subject. To my mind there is no more serious problem to be solved than how to get over the deficiency of officers. We want 4,000 to make up the deficiency for mobilisation for the Regulars, and about 6,000 to make up the deficiencies of the second line—that is, assuming that we should have only those that are already there for the second line. Well, the present Reserve is made up of officers who are middle-aged. Many of them would not be available, although they would be very

  1321
  useful, if the country was denuded of younger officers, in coming up to the training battalions and taking their place in training drafts. We have thought it right to make the most searching investigation we could into this officer problem, and we appointed last autumn what we conceived was a strong committee, and what, I think, has borne out its reputation as a strong committee. Sir Edward Ward, who has great experience in organisation, presided, and we saw that there was only one source from which we could hope to get young men of the upper middle class, who are the usual source from which this element is drawn, and that was the Universities and the big public schools, like Eton and Harrow and other public schools of that character, which at present have large cadet corps. You are not in danger of increasing the spirit of militarism there, because the spirit of militarism already runs fairly high both there and at the Universities. What we propose to do in our necessity is to turn to them, and to ask them to help us by putting their militarism to some good purpose. They are willing to do it, and their willingness will go a considerable way towards helping us to solve the problem. We thought it necessary to put upon that Committee representatives of the Universities and public schools. On that Committee are sitting Professor Hudson Beare, of Edinburgh; Professor Bourne, of Oxford; Colonel Edwards, Fellow of Peter-house, who represents the University of Cambridge; the Rev. Mr. David, headmaster of Clifton; Lord Lovat, who has taken a great and distinguished part in this matter; Major-General Ewart, Director of Military Operations, formerly Military Secretary, who has great technical knowledge; Brigadier-General Wilson, Commandant of the Staff College; and last, but not least, a representative of the Finance Department, to see that all goes smoothly there. That Committee has made an interim Report, and I am going to take a very unusual course. This question is so intricate, and it is so impossible for me to explain it within compass that, finding the Committee had got to general agreement on certain broad lines, I asked them to make this interim Report
  1322
  in such a fashion that I could lay it on the Table of the House, that Members might study it in detail. I am not bound by that Report. The Army Council has not yet considered it. We approve of the general lines most heartily, but we have got to consider the details. My right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) has not considered it. He has approved of the most general features of the scheme, and he has allowed me to put £50,000 on the Estimates this year to give it a start and make it a reality. But, of course, it will cost a great deal more than that. It may cost in the end £250,000 a year. But I have provided for that by automatic savings which I have been able to make, because this question of the officers is a problem so vital that one would rather cut off some things than leave it unsolved. I have, therefore, made these automatic savings, which will cover the full cost, even if it should amount to £250,000 a year, which is a very outside figure. However, my right hon. friend s has not yet considered the details of the scheme, and neither he nor I am bound—nor is the Committee bound. We have been in close consultation with the headmasters and the Universities and other authorities, and we have their approval of the main features of the proposals of the Committee. Accordingly, although the Committee's Report is a detailed Report, it is not the final word, and they have prepared it merely at my request to meet the convenience of the House by giving it something on which Members could form a judgment. It will be on the Table to-night, and hon. Members can take it and consider it. Here are the broad features of it. The Committee studied the systems of France, Germany, Russia, and Japan. France has her own way of obtaining a reserve of officers. They are officers from the non-commissioned ranks—a way which she can use, but a way which is not adapted to our necessities, since we have not the material which France gets through her compulsory system. Germany and Japan, and, to a considerable extent, Russia have all hit upon the same scheme. They take the officer whom they want to train from the

  1323
  Reserve, and, having satisfied themselves that he is a well-educated man, they attach him, à la suite, to a general unit; and there, after a year's training, and on passing a further examination, he goes into the reserve of officers. He is called up from time to time, and on mobilisation he becomes a Regular officer at the foot of the rank to which he belongs, and joins the battalion. We want a reserve of officers for two purposes—one for the Regulars, and one for the second line, and we propose to take the standard, that has been found sufficient on the Continent, of a year's attachment à la suite to a Regular unit—whether it is cavalry, artillery, or infantry it comes to the same thing. We propose to do something more. A man may take his year à la suite, but if he has done well in the cadet corps, then two years service in the cadet corps permits him to take what we call Diploma A, which lets him off four months of the twelve months which is to be passed à la suite.If he goes on from the public school to the University, which in a large proportion of cases he does, and takes a couple of years with the University corps under the lecturers, who in most of the Universities now give some of the military instruction, he can get a second diploma, called Diploma B, which will let him off four months more, so that he will, in order to become a Reserve officer, only take four months à la suite. Diploma A. brings him to the level of instruction of a second lieutenant of the Volunteers—not a very high level, but ensuring a certain amount of instruction. Diploma B. carries him up to the standard of a cadet after six months training at Sandhurst or Woolwich. That is the way in which we hope to get a considerable number of men. Well, we propose to form an Officers' Training Corps, which shall be in relation to these cadet corps and University corps, and which will supervise and help them, and see that they train up to a standard requisite to justify us in making the man who has got the diploma have a title to be relieved of a certain amount of service à la suite. That is the scheme, and we hope by it to get a very substantial addition to the number of officers which we have got at the present time. The
  1324
  calculations are somewhat complex, and I propose to leave them to Papers which will be laid on the Table of the House this evening. It would take me too long to go into it, but the House will see that the problem will be nearly solved if these officers take their service à la suite. These officers when they join the Reserve will probably get an outfit costing about £40; they will also get an initial payment of a retaining fee. Those who are liable to mobilisation will get an annual fee of something like £20. These details have to be worked out between my right hon. friend here (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and the Army Council.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: For how long will they be engaged?
  MR. HALDANE: They will be engaged from year to year. We think that will be the best plan. To-day officers can send in their papers at any moment, and we think it the best plan, therefore, to follow with the reserve of officers. That is the provisional suggestion of the Committee. The result will be, if our plans are realised, that the Army generally will have two lines. As I say, we are only projecting the doing our best, but we hope that our best will be realised. The Army will have two lines with bridges between, over which the Regular officers will pass for training and commanding the second line. The first line will be mobilised completely to the extent of six divisions and four cavalry brigades. All my calculations are based on the complete mobilisation of the front line, and the result will be that on mobilisation the effective strength will be fifty to eighty per cent. more efficient than at the present time. In the second line, when they mobilise, the strength will be 160,000, a figure in excess of the very sanguine estimate of 100,000, while another estimate is only 70,000, but we should have a struggle to provide that at the present time. The second line would be free from the confusion of infinite separate regulations, separate modes of payment, and separate Acts of Parliament. We propose to pay everyone in the second line on the same footing as the Regulars.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Will that apply to the Yeomanry?
  MR. HALDANE: Yes. The right hon. Gentleman says we are destroying the Yeomanry by asking them to take the terms which are given to the Regular Army. I do not agree with him. I think that giving 5s. 6d. in a lump to the Yeomanry was a very doubtful experiment, and I do say this, that if you keep the Yeomanry on that principle of payment, you will ruin the rest of your forces and create a sense of injustice and unfairness. We must make some sacrifice in the interests of the nation. We shall appeal to the patriotism of the Yeomanry and of the officers commanding that force, and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would be the first to appeal to them to discharge the part of becoming Regular soldiers of the second line, so that the honour, the rank, and the pay in that line correspond to the honour, the rank, and the pay in the first line. On no other footing can you get an organisation that is worth having. It is just like the case of a field army brigade who had their 5s. a day, which created unrest and dissatisfaction among the whole of the Volunteers. I appeal with confidence to the nation, and I feel sure that the patriotism of the country and the result will show that all men will come forward in this Home line. They will be indemnified against cost, they will be taken care of and looked after in the field, they will be relieved of all expense, and when war comes separation allowances will be given to those who have families, and who are prepared to take their part in serving the interests of the country.
  MR. WYNDHAM: How are the horses supplied?
  MR. HALDANE: For our second line we require over 120,000 horses. I hardly thought we should require so many, but I have taken that number and an estimate of £5 a horse, which I think is a very large amount. We wanted, however, to be on the safe side; we have calculated everything very liberally and worked the matter out accordingly. The amount is the same as is given to the Yeomanry at the present time.
  What are the general advantages, Sir, which we shall reap? They are, in the first place, the definition of
  1326
  functions. To that we attach the utmost importance. Each army and each line will have its functions in the great national organisation. The second important thing will be readiness for mobilisation. We may reasonably hope to be free from any more South African experiences. The third advantage will be that the second line will be available from the first, and will improve monthly up to the sixth month, and, as we hope, will be a really efficient force, which will render the country quite free from anxiety as to raids. It will be essentially a peace organisation, because it implies the assent of the nation to the calling of this second line into activity, and, as I hold, it will bring home a sense of responsibility and of meaning in all these things to our people, while it will allay uneasiness and leave our minds free for social questions. It will give us an organisation which will have the advantage of being self-contained, each division being self-contained, but capable of being expanded or contracted according to the necessities of the time. If a period comes in which the nations generally agree to reduce armaments and go about it gradually, we shall be able to take off a division from both lines without destroying the organisation as a whole. We shall be able to reduce our force slightly, or we shall be able to expand it under the machinery we have created, should the necessities of the nation make it essential. It may be said that a force so created is analogous to the forces of a province which is threatened with invasion, and which has an army organised on modern lines. The out-posts are on the frontiers always ready, representing our distant corps which to-day are serving across the seas, in the far away places of the Empire which they police. They are the out-post lines. Then our Regular Army, acting in combination with the Navy, constitute what may be called the reserve of our out-posts, not so completely in readiness as those who are beyond the seas, on the frontiers with their rifles in their hands, yet still in a high state of preparation, and ready to start to the assistance of the first line of out-posts. Behind that is the main body of the Army of the King and of the nation in reserve, scattered about in our towns and villages, slumbering, it may be, but prepared on short notice to go to the

  1327
  rescue of those who may be called upon to endure a sudden and severe attack. We see no reason why in this way we should not be able to get something like equality of strength with establishment. One of the scandals of our arrangements hitherto has been the non-correspondence of strength to establishment. It will interest the House if I compare the establishment of to-day with the establishment as it will be should this scheme be worked out. To-day we have 134,000 Regulars serving on the Home establishment, and 122,000 in Reserve. We are slightly short of the establishment in strength, but that is intended to be made up, and therefore I take no account of it. But the Militia, who are 131,000 in establishment, are shockingly short of that establishment. The Yeomanry are very nearly at full strength, 27,000; and the Volunteers are much below establishment, being 338,000 in establishment. The total forms an establishment of 754,000 men at home. Well, the establishment that I am proposing, and which deals, I hope, only with realities—that is what our efforts are being directed to—will be a much smaller establishment, and will be only 621,000 as against 754,000. But we shall be up to strength, and if you take the reality there will not be so much difference between the actual strength of the one and the other, and the average may be very much the same. You take the substance of the Militia and you divert it to your special contingents, to your special service men—for the artillery for the infantry, for the cavalry, and for other purposes, and that special service contingent will amount to about 80,000 all told. That is against the Militia establishment which is disappearing on the basis of 131,000, so that you really diminish the establishment in that case. Our territorial force has a war establishment of over 300,000, including about 12,000 port defence troops.
  Now, Sir, the House will ask about the cost of all these things—what we are going to spend on this new line, on the artillery and all those things with major-generals commanding divisions—on this organisation, which we are endeavouring to make as complete as possible. Here, again, the House must remember that these matters are very apt
  1328
  to be misunderstood. Because they cost a great deal in the present time, it does not necessarily follow that the cost is as much under other systems. The Swiss Army, which has a very effective second line, has about 250,000 men, and about 250,000 in reserve, costs only £1,200,000 a year. But, of course, we cannot do anything like that in this country. Feeling that this matter of the cost should be tested very thoroughly, I asked the Finance Department of the War Office to make a searching investigation into the question, in conjunction with the General Staff and the Committee now sitting under the direction of the Army Council. They are working out the details of the scheme, furnished with all necessary materials. At present our Auxiliary Forces cost us £4,400,000 a year, and they have an establishment of between 300,000 and 400,000. Our second line, if this scheme succeeds, will be 300,000 in number, and will cost, according to the careful calculations of the Finance Department of the War Office, £2,886,000. The whole thing has been taken on the basis of the Army service rates; the salaries from the major-general downwards being the same as they would be in the Regular Army, and it works out at a figure which is extremely small compared with what we are spending on our Axiliary Forces at the present time. I have got to pay for training schools and other matters for which I have not all the details before me now, but I can do so within the margin of one-and-a-half millions. I am well within my figure when I say one-and-a-half millions, and in this, with the £2,886,000, you will have the sum we are spending at present upon the Auxiliary Forces. I think it will be interesting to the House to have these calculations before it, and I have arranged for a Paper containing the whole balance-sheet to be laid upon the Table to-night showing the whole thing upon a war strength. We shall not get the war strength, however, for years, but it is best to put in everything that is required.
  I am coming to the end of my statement. As regards our future discussion, what I think would be the simplest plan would be to get you, Mr. Speaker, out of the Chair to-night and continue our discussions on Vote A and Vote 1. Then

  1329
  next Monday I propose to bring in a Bill providing the machinery for putting the Army upon this territorial basis, and on this the whole discussion will be open, and there will be a Paper giving a précis of what I have said now. The preliminary discussion can be taken on Wednesday and Thursday, and the Bill next Monday. I propose to print the Bill at once and leave it until after Easter, so that it can be well discussed in the country. Then there will be material for a complete discussion on the Second Reading. I believe that only a young and strong Parliament such as this would be capable of discharging the task which lies before us. It could not be accomplished by an old Parliament, but only by a young Parliament full of vigour and fresh ideas. The Parliament which I am addressing may accomplish the first stage. I feel that if this is to be a reality and a success it requires the work of more than one Parliament and more than one Ministry, for continuity is essential, and that is why I am anxious not by word or suggestion to come into conflict more than is necessary with those who hold different views. We shall have to ask the Auxiliary Forces to take upon themselves considerable hardships, but we feel that they cannot at present become effective. Therefore it is better to help them and make things smoother for them by conceding points which are immaterial and insisting only upon the material principles. The work will take time and the transition must be gradual. The task is gigantic, but one feels that, after all, when the nation is willing, of such a task may be said what is recorded by the prophet Zechariah when the angel appeared and exhorted Zerubbabel, Governor of Judah, "Who art thou, O great mountain, before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain." What we ask for now is not the opinion of the House upon this scheme as a whole, for that the House cannot give without consideration—time and caution are wanted for such a great undertaking. But we ask that the first step should be taken by considering the question of entrusting us with sufficient powers which we can apply gradually under the supervision of Parliament, and report our progress from time to time. The transitory provisions of the Bill make allowances for a comparatively gentle and slow procedure. We shall
  1330
  go slowly; there will be no coercion, but there will be no further recruiting for the old corps on the old basis. All these things will be made plain in the Bill. We are at the beginning of a long undertaking. Our plans are made out in greater detail than I have put before the House, but I think I have shown the kind of machinery we seek to introduce. If Parliament and the country approve of our endeavour, we shall go resolutely forward on the road that we have mapped out, not hastily, but cautiously and considerately. All that we ask now is that a first step should be taken towards placing in our hands the instruments necessary to enable us to make a beginning with this gigantic task, and, if that is granted, we shall proceed to the next stage of our work resolutely and with good heart.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I desire to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon the lucid manner in which he has explained his scheme to the House. I cannot help feeling that there is now in the situation a certain similarity to the situation several months ago when the right hon. Gentleman spoke upon this question. I think we shall all be prepared to extend the most favourable consideration to the right hon. Gentleman's measures of hope and anticipation. Up to this moment, however, we have not got one step further than the measures of anticipation. This brings me to the only attempt I shall make at criticism of what the Secretary of State for War has said. We are face to face with a certain number of faits accomplis, and also with a number of propositions which are to see their accomplishment in the future. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that our future is very uncertain, and that whether his propositions were admirable or the reverse their accomplishment was problematic, because it depends upon a number of factors over which neither he nor anyone else has any control. It would have been infinitely better if, before committing the defences if this country to a number of plausible propositions, he had not proposed to diminish the power of this country for offence or defence. Let me summarise

  1331
  what the right hon. Gentleman has suggested. We are to have a great improvement in the defensive forces of this country, and how is it proposed to obtain it? The sanction of Parliament is asked to the diminution of our Regular Army, which has always fought our battles, by no less than 13,335 men. But that is not all. Everyone agrees that the most important item to consider is the question of officers, and yet the right hon. Gentleman tells us that no less than 577 commissioned officers and 709 sergeants are to be struck off the effective roll of the Army in the coming year. Is that the way to strengthen the Army for war? It would have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had displayed more patience and caution, and delayed the process of destruction until he was a little further on the road to construction. He told the House that this is a soldiers' plan, and that he has struck a bargain with the soldiers—they giving up so much and he giving up so much in return. I am astonished to hear that in the general military opinion of the country a reduction can be made in the Royal Artillery by 4,000 men, and a reduction of two battalions of the Guards.
  MR. HALDANE: No.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I am glad to know that they have not been reduced. I understood that that was an integral part of the right hon. Gentleman's scheme. It does astonish me to know that it is soldiers' opinion that you can reduce the Royal Artillery of this country and provide a substitute for them effectively in auxiliary batteries at all. That may be their view. I did not know that it was. I am interested to hear that it is so. I did not know that it was the military point of view that we should have a large diminution in the number of Regular officers. I did not know that it was the military point of view that the force which now receives a considerable amount of annual training should have that training diminished. And when I find that all the soldiers have got in exchange for these diminutions is the resumption of the plan for completing the school at Sandhurst, and the transfer of the erection of barracks from one place to another, I am inclined to think that they
  1332
  have not got a very good bargain. Here we are face to face with all these great changes and what have we got in their place? In the first place the Militia is to be abolished. [An Hon. Member "No".] They are to be abolished lock, stock and barrel. Let there be no mistake about that. I do not quite understand the right hon. Gentleman's plan with regard to the Yeomanry, but something he said made me infer that they are to go also. I wish to know what he really does propose with regard to the Yeomanry. I think if he is going to make any sort of alteration with regard to the terms of service of the Yeomanry, he may find himself minus the Yeomanry, as well as minus the Militia. We have the line reduced eight battalions, and we have the Guards reduced one battalion. We have already had three battalions of Artillery destroyed, and we are told that we are to have a much larger reduction of Artillery in the future. The Volunteers have been reduced, and the whole of the fortnight's training has been done away with. What exactly is that force to be in the future? The Army Reserve is practically destroyed. The Army Reserve which is now being formed is not sufficient to mobilise the Army in time of war. That is the real plain upshot of the sketch which the right hon. Gentleman has given us to-night. We are to have the Militia abolished, a reduction of the Line, and a reduction in the Artillery, and what is to take their place? Have we got more men? No. I understand that we are to have many men less. We are to have a smaller force than now. Are we to have any alteration in the expenditure? No, the expenditure is to remain practically the same. What are we to get? We are to get old things called by new names. That may encourage new men to make new enterprises, but I do not for a moment see how you are going very much to strengthen the Auxiliary Forces on which you rely by calling them by another name. There is one matter on which I think we all sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman, and in regard to which, speaking for myself, he will have my support, namely, the effort to make more efficient the Volunteer force. That he will have difficulties in realising his high hopes I am certain, but I do wish him well. That

  1333
  is a totally different thing from taking away that which we had already got. The right hon. Gentlemen said he had been making a sort of inventory of the Army, finding out what was good and what was bad. He spoke of a house in which the footmen were to be discharged. I did not particularly care for the simile. What we are destroying are not the footmen but the Foot Guards. I do not know what is the effective force to be put in their place. The right hon. Gentleman told us that he was going to meet the real crux of the problem in a way which no doubt struck the House as original. It certainly was original. I should like to point out what the real crux of the problem is. I do not concern myself with this territorial Army. I do not suppose that it will turn out as the right hon. Gentleman believes. I think that things incidental to its formation will matter very much. The real crux is that the moment you destroy the Militia you deprive the Regular Army of the source of its recruiting. The right hon. Gentleman says that he has considered that you are going not only to recruit the Army but to form an Army Reserve from a totally new source, or from an old one called by a new name. There is considerable interest in this now proposal. The right hon. Gentleman is going to propose the creation of a short service Army—some 90 battalions of a short service Army—men enlisted for six months, to be trained in depots—and confined to service in this country, but to go abroad when required in time of war. That is short service in every sense. It is a short service Army of the very worst kind that can possibly be imagined. How is this invaluable adjunct of the Regular Army to be composed? Look at what is going to happen. At present 12,000 to 14,000 men pass from the Militia into the Regular Army. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that they are going to take the material now going to the Militia and pass it into the Line, or pass it into the Reserve of the Line. What does that mean? You are going to get young men at the age of seventeen, but you are not going to get the advantage they now possess. At present they are trained with the battalion, they know the officers, and the prestige is something which they under-
  1334
  stand. But you are going to induce them, by offering the pay of an ordinary soldier, to go to a depot to be trained for a period of six months. They will never see the officers of the battalion, they will never serve the colours of the regiment to which they are attached; they will be discharged into civil life at the age of seventeen years and six months, and they may be called up for a fortnight every year, or in the succeeding year, for the purpose of training. Is that the kind of men you want for reinforcements in time of war? Is it the opinion of any officer that he desires to see a battalion which will be composed of 300 of these reduced establishment long service soldiers supplemented by 700 men who have left the Army at seventeen years and six months, who have been in civil life for one, two, three, or four years, who have never served under the colours, and who have never seen their officers? Are these the men an officer desires to lead? If he does, he is different from any officer I have ever known. How are you going to get the men? We are told that this territorial force is going to be so attractive under the command of my noble friend Lord Portsmouth, that all the good elements are to go into it, and that all the undesirable elements which now go into the Militia are to go into the Army Reserve. Why should they do it? Here they have on the one hand regular pay in the territorial Army with this liability, at any rate, this certainty that under no circumstances will they be required to goon war service abroad, because they are confined to this country, and they have the alternative of going as nondescripts to a battalion which has no corporate existence, and which is a fleeting body? Who is going to do it? I will tell you who is going to do it. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the excellent effect of taking a certain number of men during the winter. He said they were saved from starvation and becoming reformed characters. Well, we are going to rely for forming our fighting Regular Army on men who come at seventeen years of age because their bellies are empty, and they are going to help us in time of war. If we are going to rely on these men, then I say, God help us in time of war. I want to know a little more about the

  1335
  Reserve. How is it to be formed? I think it conceivable that the Volunteers will accept these proposals. I hope they will. They are in many respects a great improvement on the Volunteer organisation of the present day. They involve a definite period of enlistment for, I think, four years, but they carry with them a penalty which will work out very disagreeably for many men who wish to get rid of that liability during the period of service. They will give a great deal of stability to the Volunteer force which is eminently needed. There is one question which we will need to be told more about, and which is of more importance. You are assuming that in the territorial force you will attract all the men who otherwise would go into the Militia, and you are going to leave the Army Reservists, who are the men who now go into the Militia. What are you going to do with them? Are you going to allow them to go into the Regular Army? If you are going to allow them to serve in the Regular Army, what becomes of the Reserve, and if you do not, what becomes of the Regular Army? You will have a depot somewhere where you will have these men serving for six months. They will have six months hard and very disagreeable drill, and at the end of that time they will do one of two things. They will either go into the Regular Army, or they will go into the Reserve. Are they to be encouraged to go into the Regular Army, or are they to be encouraged to go into the Reserve? My impression is that they will not go into the Army. At the end of six months they will be "fed up" with soldiering, and nothing will induce them to go into the Army, and the result will be that 12,000 recruits will be struck off the recruits of the Regular Army. If they do go into the Regular Army, their service will be required for seven years, and, again I ask, what is to become of the Reserve in time of war? If the Militia and the Volunteers do accept these new terms, I ask once more, what is the good of it? What are we going to do with them? Here we are with an Army composed of men whose maximum training will be eight weeks. They may or they may not do a certain number of terms. We hope that in time the officers will
  1336
  have the qualifications which the right hon. Gentleman described; that at some time the Force will be provided with all the arms of a modern army. When that day is going to be, I know not; but this I know: that when the right hon. Gentleman has really seriously provided this great Force with all the adjuncts of a Regular Army prepared to take the field, the cost will not be £2,500,000, but something so enormous that all questions of economy will have vanished and the right hon. Gentleman will have to rewrite his Army Estimates. With the training the Volunteer Artillery are to have for eight weeks, armed with inferior guns, will they be an Artillery force worth having? We cannot get an efficient force by a mere change of name. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, when he speaks again on this point, if he speaks with full military authority? I hear a great deal of what has taken place in other countries. Which country is making this great mistake? There is no country in the world that calls itself a military nation, which believes that it can fight a campaign by means of troops trained as the right hon. Gentleman suggests. Are these countries right, or are they wrong? If they are right, then we are making a most gigantic error. If they are wrong then we have made the greatest discovery of modern times. Reference has been made to the Japanese Army, as if it were an army levied en masse; but not a single man in that army is under twenty years of age, and every man has been trained under his own officer for three years, and organised on the most perfect military system known. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War knows the German Army, as I am familiar with the French Army; but does the right hon. Gentleman believe that all the trouble taken in training their armies, and all the securities demanded by them, are thrown away? Does he think that if we found ourselves in conflict with such armies, so trained and directed, and could only oppose to them an army depleted of men and guns, and behind the shadowy unformed force the right hon. Gentleman proposes, we could come out victorious in the struggle in which we were involved? That is a very serious question, which ought to be considered in all its

  1337
  bearings, before we commit ourselves to such a wide proposition. There are other important matters to which I wish briefly to refer. The right hon. Gentleman has once more repeated the strange misconception in regard to the Artillery and the Departmental Services of this country. I know he has not meant to deceive the House of Commons. He is not capable of it. But I know that what he has said now and on previous occasions has deceived the House of Commons and the country. The right hon. Gentleman says that there are great gaps in our organisation for war, and he cites especially the Artillery. I think it would have been fair if the right hon. Gentleman had told the House a little more of the history of those gaps. If he had turned to the Army Returns for the last year in which his Party was responsible for the administration of the Army, he would have found that the auxiliary services as an efficient force did not exist. There was practically no Artillery; there was no Veterinary Corps; other sections were practically non-existent; and it has been the work of three Conservative Administrations to repair the lapses of the previous Liberal Government. We are told that we cannot mobilise the auxiliary artillery, because we cannot do it by a stroke of a wand, and that we have doubled the Royal Artillery within the last year. I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that you may use the auxiliary forces to supplement the Regular forces in time of war; but that cannot be done without having a stronger Regular force. Why not leave the Regular Artillery alone and not destroy it? The right hon. Gentleman, not for the first time, has told us, and that no doubt has commended his proposals to the country, that he would be able to send by his scheme a larger force than now into the field on mobilisation. That is a perfect dream. When I come to examine the constitution of the right hon. Gentleman's force, I find that 50 per cent. of the Indian Army will consist of men who are not soldiers at all. You are not going by that method to get an effective Regular Army of 150,000. You have to depend for such an Army on youths who for a certain pay will be willing to give their services in circumstances which do not exist and on
  1338
  terms which they do not understand. When we are told that no less than 10,000 men are to be taken from one branch of the Militia, and that not one of these is under obligation to serve abroad, it would take years to make them effective even if they volunteered for service abroad. This is an Army of a dream, and of a very distant dream. It is not an Army which will ever be created. I am wholly at one with the right hon. Gentleman in his endeavour to improve the Auxiliary Forces, and I wish him every success. But when all is said and done, there remains in my mind a feeling that one consideration has been left out of the right hon. Gentleman's elaborate survey of the military problem to which he has devoted himself with so much zeal and intelligence. One little word he has forgotten, and that is war. I have heard nothing either now or in other speeches of the right hon. Gentleman in the country, which has made me feel that we are doing more in this matter of Army reform to satisfy the public opinion and enthusiasm of the country than before. We have been told that all that has been done in the last ten years is wrong and that the money spent on the Army has been useless. The history of this country's wars has been chequered, but it has been very rich in episodes. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us that when the occasion has arisen that demanded the services of an efficient Army these have not been forthcoming? He would be a bold man who would say that the actual invasion of this country has been unknown in the past and will be unknown in the future. If history teaches me anything it is that we may be called upon to enter upon a defence of our Empire, either here or beyond the seas, and I have considerable doubt that a scheme which weakens even a portion of the forces which are at present available for that service is a bad scheme. The regular Army has hitherto undertaken that task and has always performed it. The right hon. Gentleman has only too truly described the degradation of the Militia; but I should have preferred the plan to which he gave his early preference, namely, that of trying to resuscitate the force. He has, however, elected to take another course; he has destroyed the Militia, and he is now going to give

  1339
  us an Army which will be entirely confined to service in this country. He may have sanguine and confident anticipations as to the services that Army will render in war time to an Army in the field, but I think that if he were to ask the lights of the Staffs of the great continental Powers what they thought of a mobilisation which was marked at its earliest stages by uncertainty, which left them in the crisis of war not knowing what numbers they could employ or where they could employ them, and not daring to employ them at all until a particular stage of the war was reached the members of the Staff consulted would say that the organisation stood self-condemned. There are a good many other subjects with which I might deal, and it is because those other questions have been entirely left out of the exceedingly able speech of the right hon. Gentleman that I have ventured at this early stage of the discussion to deal with that part only of his speech which is vital. If we want to win in war we must make sacrifices. We are cutting our coat, not according to our necessities, but according to the humour of those who might be induced, in one way or another, to assist us.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that before he dealt with the general question he would like to explain an interruption which he made in the course of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, in regard to the Artillery. He complained that the horses for this force had been reduced here and increased in India, and suggested that an economy which had been made on this year's Estimates as a consequence of the reduction of that force was in conflict with the policy pursued by the military authorities in India. The right hon. Gentleman immediately exclaimed that it was nothing to do with him but with the Secretary of State for India. It was not quite fair to throw the responsibility upon the Secretary of State for India, but it was the plan of the War Office to throw upon India the responsibility for expenditure for high efficiency. In the present year, for instance, whilst we were reducing our horses for horse, field, and mountain Artillery from 10,311 to 9,680, we were increasing Indian horses from 10,236 to 13,347. This tendency
  1340
  to throw on India expenditure for attaining high efficiency which we never attained here was unfair, and he had never known it pushed so far as in the Estimates of the present year. We had given up mountain Artillery in this country, contrary to the practice of every other Power, and thrown the whole of our mountain Artillery on India. The reduction in horses had, moreover, been made at a time when omnibus horses ceased to be available.
  MR. HALDANEpointed out that the Army in India was under the control of the Indian Government.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he was sorry the right hon. Gentleman should attempt to set up that high constitutional doctrine which he must know was opposed to the facts. The Indian generals were chosen by the Military advisers of this country, and the Secretary of State for India knew nothing of these changes, and nothing about that high efficiency which was aimed at in India, and which was shown by increased cost in India, and nominal economies in this country. It was idle for his right hon. friend to attempt to contend such a thing. [Mr. Haldane dissented]. This course was taken in defiance of the opinion of the Elgin Commission, the Esher Committee, and of those best qualified to judge, to the effect that our mounted men, and the number of our horses, must be increased. If the officer difficulty could be solved then the real military problem was solved, because we could raise the men under our volunteer system more rapidly, and they could be trained more rapidly, because of their higher intelligence, than those of other countries. But this necessitated our keeping up the more expensive Artillery and Cavalry unite, in regard to which the Government were making economies that they were not making in India. His right hon. friend had made a statement to-day even more interesting and valuable than was anticipated by the House. He had changed his opinion since he placed his memorandum before the great Committee, commonly called "The Duma." He had made two speeches in the previous year, and these changes showed a ripening and a mellowing of wisdom which met many of

  1341
  the objections entertained against this scheme at first. But his (Sir Charles Dilke's) support of, or opposition to, this scheme would depend entirely on the extent to which his right hon. friend convinced the House that he had met the difficulty of the transition period. Many of them would support the right hon. Gentleman in making a success of the great scheme which he had outlined; but it was a scheme that would mature very slowly, and take a long time to bring into operation; and it was calculated to paralyse the whole military administration during the transition period. Everything depended upon what was to happen during that transition period. The right hon. Gentleman had commended his scheme to the House by saying that it was a soldier's scheme; but soldiers had never shown their appreciation of the Auxiliary Forces, or their capacity to deal with them. The right hon. Gentleman, to show that he had military opinion behind him, vouched the Army Council; but the late Secretary of State for War vouched the same Army Council for an entirely different proposition; and he had written a book in which he had given chapter and verse for vouching General Lyttelton and General Douglas for opinions quite different from those upon which the right hon. Gentleman relied at the present time. The scheme was, in fact, the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, and not a soldier's scheme. The right hon. Gentleman destroyed the Militia and recreated it. He recreated so many more battalions under the linked-battalion system. That was to say, whilst we already had seventy-one or seventy-four battalions which were supposed to, but never did, correspond with those we had abroad, there was now to be a third set created under the linked-battalion system, and the same gentlemen who advised the right hon. Gentleman that this system was necessary advised the late Secretary of State in an opposite direction. The Esher Committee assumed the abolition of the linked-battalion system, and the right hon. Gentleman was advised by the Army Council, the first and second members of which were the same as those who advised the late Secretary of State to abolish the linked-battalion system. This same Army Council had recently published a paper written by General Miles, in which that officer laid
  1342
  stress upon the reform of getting rid of the linked-battalion system, and said even now that it would come. The military advice upon which the Secretary of State relied was, therefore, not of much value, and the responsibility must rest upon the right hon. Gentleman. He, and he alone, could win the assent of the House to this scheme. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to win the assent of those who had always gone a long way in the direction of demanding such a scheme. He asked him to do that by showing them that the transition stage would be bridged over. The Secretary of State had said that this was a simple scheme, but that was hardly so, as it doubled the number of systems. For example, the Militiaman enlisted under the old system would serve under that system, and while the new men would be enlisted under the new system the right hon. Gentleman would have to keep the old men under the present system. The only way in which that difficulty could be overcome would be to get rid of all the old men who were not willing to serve under the new system. That was not at all simple. The right hon. Gentleman had said he could get rid of that difficulty by refusing to recruit those units. That was a miserable position into which to put a battalion. There was an example of that at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman had ceased to recruit for submarine miners. There were the Tay, the Forth, the Tyne, the Severn—altogether there were about ten divisions of Volunteer submarine miners which had been reduced. Then there was the well-known case of the Garrison Artillery which was not fully recruited. Those units were left as it were starving, not knowing what the system was to be, and were gradually pining away. It was not pleasant to contemplate in the future that units who refused the new system were to be starved until they pined away through their inability to recruit. He would like the right hon. Gentleman also to tell the House a little more as to what his policy was with regard to raids. In his memorandum on last year's Estimates the right hon. Gentleman described the system by which he would deal with the defence of ports. Everybody agreed that the Tyne was a place that was likely to be raided in time of war, and the right hon. Gentleman said, in adopting the policy of his predecessor, that he had

  1343
  given up the responsibility for submarine mine defence and had handed submarine mining over to the Navy. The right hon. Gentleman said—
  "The future of the Volunteer mining units was at present under consideration."
  It had remained under consideration up to the present time. Yet these were those highly scientific units which were so much to our advantage, such as the London electrical engineers, for instance. These battalions were left in a wretched position by this change of policy. Then let the House consider the enormous waste of money in which the country was involved by such a change. First, millions of money were spent in a scheme for defending ports in this way; and then came a proposition to save £100,000 on the Army Estimates and to hand over to the Admiralty all the materials that had been purchased. The minefield material alone cost £1,000,000. It had now gone, and we were still paying for it. That material was probably sold by the Admiralty as old wire. Did it fetch£50,000? He wanted to know if we were better off now than we were then. The right hon. Gentleman further said, in his memorandum, that a joint Naval and Military Committee had been appointed to consider this matter; but there was a joint Naval and Military Committee in working order twelve or thirteen years ago. The whole system of the defence of ports rested on the opinion of the Naval and Military Committee, and he wished to know if the right hon. Gentleman, during the transition period in which this new territorial Army was to be raised, had any conception of how these ports were going to be defended against raids. This was a matter in which he (Sir Charles Dilke) had never taken an alarmist view; but everybody admitted that with regard to the Tyne and the Forth there was a possibility of a raid, and the net result of all these changes, which must be prolonged, was that the Tyne would be left without any system of defence. The right hon. Gentleman had provided no system of defence to take the place of that which had previously existed; and therefore he asked him to try and show those Members who were anxious to support the main details of his scheme how the dangerous transition period, which might last for a great number of years, was to be tided over, He would like to know, for example, how
  1344
  the right hon. Gentleman's arrangements, not only for war abroad, but also for the defence of the Tyne or the Forth, were to be carried out. Perhaps the Secretary of State might be able to throw some light upon what was apparently a reversion of policy upon this subject. They had been told that no money would in future be spent upon anything which was not preparation for war. He would like to ask what was the necessity for such enormous expenditure upon the fortifications of Queenstown, whilst the Tyne and the Forth were left practically undefended? He was afraid that his right hon. friend had had his time so much taken up with the greater subject that his attention had not been drawn to this serious departure from sound principles. He hoped it would be made clear to the House what methods were proposed to close the breach during the very dangerous period which must intervene between now and the time the right hon. Gentleman's scheme would be put into working order.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid it was impossible in the few minutes at his disposal before they proceeded to the consideration of another subject to discuss in detail the statement of the Secretary of State for War. The way in which the matter had been dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly marvellous, but they would have to seek for much more further information. He would not traverse the great changes proposed in the first line, but those affecting the second line would require the greatest care and attention. He was sorry it was proposed to abolish the Militia, the Yeomanry, and the Volunteers under those names. There was always a danger in abolishing old names and old institutions. Whether the country would take to the old things under a new name he did not know. A great deal would depend upon, a variety of circumstances, and if the new name did not take, the disaster would be very great indeed. The right hon. Gentleman had done him the honour of appointing him a member of the Territorial Army Committee; but he regretted to say that the had not been summoned to a meeting since last summer, and therefore it could not be claimed that this scheme was the result of the deliberations of that Committee.

  1345
  He was very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the efforts he had made to inform himself of the opinions of the Auxiliary Forces. He had done his best to encourage them in every possible way, but he thought his proposals with regard to men leaving the Volunteer force were most dangerous.
  And, it being a quarter past eight of the clock, and leave having been given to more the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10, further proceeding was postponed without Question put.

  ADJOURNMENT (UNDER STANDING ORDER NO. 10) (JUDGESHIP IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE IN IRELAND).
  MR. MOORErose to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, "the action of His Majesty's present advisers in making an appointment of a Judgeship in the High Court of Justice in Ireland, which has been vacant for the last three years." He said he had no personal motive in bringing the matter forward, believing that if the appointment had to be made there was no man more entitled to the position than Serjeant Dodd. He had the pleasure of the hon. and learned Gentleman's acquaintance, and, though a political opponent, he wished to take the earliest opportunity of saying that Serjeant Dodd was in every respect admirably suited for the appointment. All he could say was that the hon. and learned Gentleman had received, much too late in his career, the reward now given to him. Serjeant Dodd was the leader of the northern circuit in Ireland and had a large practice. In addition to being a lawyer, he was a man who deserved well of his Party. But he went out into the wilderness in 1886, and had remained there until now, and now that he had got his reward no Member on that side of the House would grudge him for a single moment the enjoyment of it. The hon. Member for South Down at Question time made a personal reference. He (Mr. Moore) had been some years in Parliament; but he was not aware that either in taste or in form the remark of the hon. Member for South Down was in any way in keeping with the spirit of the
  1346
  majority of his colleagues. He was free to admit that he should not for a moment on that account deviate from the course he had marked out for himself, and he assured the House that he had no personal feeling in this matter, as the hon. Member for South Down had been good enough to suggest. His Majesty's Government on this occasion were fortified by a resolution from the Bar Council of Ireland; and he trusted that the Chief Secretary would, as barrister himself, pay due regard to the wishes of the Council of the Bar of Ireland, who had passed a resolution that day and forwarded it to the right hon. Gentleman expressing unqualified approval of the action of the Government. Speaking as a barrister, he could very well understand that the barristers of Ireland were very glad to have all the judgeships in Ireland filled up, and he was sure none would sympathise with that policy more than the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General. He understood, however, that the Chief Secretary, notwithstanding the view of the Bar, was going to ignore the resolution by abolishing two out of the next three vacant judgeships. He wished the House to consider this question on principle. The fact that the appointment concerned a judgeship was not more important to his argument than if it was a Commissionership of Works. There had been a great breach of continuity of policy by successive Irish Governments. Time after time that House—he did not care which Party was in power—had pledged itself to the reduction of this particular judgeship. He wished also to call attention to what he ventured to say was a very remarkable breach of Parliamentary faith, because there was no doubt whatsoever that Resolutions and Bills had passed that House on the assurance of the representative of the Irish Government that this particular judgeship would be abolished. After the lapse of three years to fill it up in a hurry was a great breach of Parliamentary faith. As to representations made by those authorised to make them, he did not think the House would stand a reversal of policy on a matter which had again and again been the subject of pledges. In the third place, he wished to ask what was the effect of the Government's action, from an economical point of view, in making this appointment; and, fourthly, what effect it had

  1347
  on the Labourers (Ireland) Act of last session. When the hon. Member for Waterford spoke on the political platform, one of the first things he took credit to himself for, in connection with the work of last session, was the great assistance given in getting the Labourers Act through the House. [Cheers.] He was very glad to hear those cheers, because he thought that when hon. Members opposite found how His Majesty's Government had run away from what were in fact their statutory pledges in connection with the Labourers Act, those cheers would not be repeated. He wished further to draw attention to the fact that there was absolutely no excuse or demand for this appointment. When one came to examine the present state of affairs in Ireland one saw that it was unnecessary, and that it was a breach of continuity of policy, a breach of faith with the House, a fraud upon the Labourers Act, and a fraud upon the British taxpayer. It was simply the creation of a job for a particular follower, who, for all he knew, had adequate reason to express his discontent with the situation. Hon. Members would remember, particularly those who were in the House when the Land Act of 1903 was passed, that a great additional annual charge was placed upon the British taxpayer—a charge of £300,000 a year. The House would also remember that the countervailing argument of the Chief Secretary was that economies would be effected in Irish administration amounting to £250,000 a year. The economies foreshadowed were to be reductions in the police and reductions in the legal establishment. But the matter did not stop there. Early in 1904 this vacancy, so hurriedly filled up last week, occurred. When the Chancery Judge, who carried with him into his retirement the affection of the whole Irish Bar, resigned, his place was filled up by the transfer of Mr. Justice Barton, a Judge of the King's Bench. There were ten Judges of the King's Bench at that time, and the transfer reduced the number to nine. There were five circuits in Ireland and the assizes were the poor man's Court for appeals from the county courts, and it was absolutely necessary that there should be two Judges for each circuit. For the last three years the place of the tenth Judge had been filled by a Lord Justice of Appeal, who went circuit with his brother the Chief Justice of the King's
  1348
  Bench Division. But when the Chief Secretary was asked a question by the hon. Member for Waterford, on the 16th March, 1904, he made special reference to this judgeship as a vacancy which was then pending. He would read what the right hon. Gentleman had said, because it was necessary to do so in order to establish the utter breach of continuity of policy of the Irish Government. The hon. Member for Waterford asked about this particular vacancy, and the then Chief Secretary said—
  "There were other savings which could be effected. The other day Mr. Justice Barton was transferred to a vacancy which had occurred on the Chancery side of the High Court of Judicature in Ireland, and it was not the intention of the Irish Government to fill up the vacancy created by that transferance. A saving of £3,500 a year would thus be effected. In the measure which he had mentioned they contemplated reserving the right of saving another £3,500 a year on a vacant judgeship, but regard must, be had to the exigencies of the public service."
  "There would be a saving of £7,000 a year, and possibly more, and that, he suggested, should be carried over to the credit side of the Development Grant."
  That was a definite statement that under no circumstances was that vacant judgeship to be filled, and there was no doubt whatever that that was the policy of the Irish Government on the faith of which those Estimates went through. A division took place, and therefore it could not be denied that the Estimates were carried on the faith of the statement made by the responsible Minister. That was the view expressed by the Chief Secretary for Ireland in 1904, and he was glad to say that that Minister was as good as his word. A Bill was introduced in that very year to confirm the abolition of that particular judgeship, and also providing for the extinction of the next vacancy. It was true that the Government failed to carry that Bill, but the Chief Secretary adhered to his undertaking, and the Irish Government did not fill up that judgeship. In 1905 the vacancy still existed, and another Bill was introduced for its abolition. This also failed to get through the House of Commons, but still the vacancy was not filled up. Then came a change of Government and the predecessor of the present Chief Secretary took office. Speaking on 28th May, 1906, Mr. Bryce said—
  "In the third place it was proposed to effect certain savings on the judicial establishment

  1349
  in Ireland, and to apply the sum of £3,500 which belonged to a judgeship now suspended, and to suspend or extinguish another judgeship, which would save another £3,500, and to reduce the salary of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland from £8,000 to £6,000. These three savings would give him a further sum of £9,000 a year."
  If there was to be any continuity of policy in the same department, the House could not have a clearer case brought before it than this, where, irrespective of Party, Chief Secretary after Chief Secretary had declared that this particular judgeship should be abolished, and that the saving effected thereby should go to Irish purposes. Under those circumstances he thought it was only right, when suddenly and practically without any notice this judgeship was filled up, that the House of Commons should have an opportunity of considering how far it would allow this continuity of policy to be interrupted. But the matter did not stop there. There had also been a gross breach of faith. The estimate for the Judges passed through the House of Commons on a division on the faith of the statements that this particular judgeship was not going to be filled up. When Mr. Bryce made that statement he was trying to obtain his Labourers Bill, and one of his difficulties was where to find the money. The Consolidated Fund was to be tapped, and in various other ways the money was to be raised, and he promised to contribute £9,000 by savings from judgeships, including this identical judgeship. Mr. Bryce got the Second Reading of the Labourers Billon those representations. Consequently he was justified in saying that there had been a gross breach of faith in this matter when they found the Government suddenly turning round and filling up that vacant judgeship. He very much sympathised with the Chief Secretary in the fact that one of the first things he was called upon to defend was a gross and glaring breach of Parliamentary faith on the part of his predecessor. [Nationalist laughter and cries of "Oh, oh!"] He might remind hon. Members below the Gangway that charges of breach of faith could not be laughed away, nor could statements on the faith of which legislation had been obtained. Before this appointment was made it was only right and proper that the right hon. Gentleman should have come down to the House of Commons and told them fairly and squarely that a real demand
  1350
  existed for it, and that notwithstanding former statements and pledges he proposed to ask the sanction of the House for this appointment. But that was not the course adopted by the Chief Secretary; and, even assuming that the right hon. Gentleman was not to blame, at any rate his predecessor had left him in an unfortunate and invidious position. He wished to point out also how unjust this action was to the general British taxpayer.
  MR. CULLINAN: What about twenty-nine and a half years' purchase?
  MR. MOOREthought the House ought seriously to consider on whom the expense of this appointment would ultimately fall. What was the position? At the present time there were four retired Judges under the head of the Irish Judiciary drawing pensions amounting to over £12,000 a year. The late Lord Chancellor, Lord Ashbourne, was drawing £4,000 a year. [Nationalist cheers.] He was glad to hear hon. Members cheer that. Then there was the late Master of the Rolls, Sir Andrew Porter, and the Vice-Chancellor of Ireland, whose total pensions amounted to £12,000 a year. Surely if there was any desire on the part of a Government that had talked so loudly about retrenchment and economy on all occasions in season and out of season, to practise what they preached, they would not have saddled the British taxpayer with an additional £3,500 a year at a time when they were paying £12,000 in pensions to Irish judges. What they had done in Ireland to-day they might do in any part of the Kingdom to-morrow if their action was not checked. Their action was a striking contrast to the professions of rigid economy and parsimony in expenditure which found so much favour with hon. Gentlemen opposite. He thought the Government might at least have waited until this £12,000 had to some extent been diminished. The Chief Secretary had told the House to-day that six or eight additional examiners in title had been appointed under the Land Purchase Acts. Nobody grudged those appointments because they all agreed—or at least those of them who were sincerely and honestly anxious to have an end put

  1351
  to the Irish difficulties connected with the land—with such appointments. They all agreed that the more they accelerated land purchase the better, and this could not be done except by providing a proper staff and the necessary funds. Rightly or wrongly, these gentlemen were appointed to take so much work off the shoulders of the Land Commission Judge. He was satisfied that, at the moment those appointments were made, the Treasury knew by statements which had been made in the House by successive members of the Irish Government that it was not the intention of the Government to increase the expense of the Judiciary by filling up this judgeship which had then been vacant for eighteen months. Then there was the effect of withdrawing this grant from the purposes of the Labourers Act. The finance of that Act was to be provided in part from the annual income of the judgeship which was then treated as extinct. On the very day that the Labourers Bill was introduced the then Chief Secretary for Ireland, the predecessor of the present holder of that office, introduced a Bill to abolish this actual judgeship. The £3,500 a year which Mr. Bryce said would be applicable to the purposes of the Labourers Act had gone to a loyal, capable, and competent supporter of the Government. It had been taken from the labourers, and what a nice election cry it would make in the constituency which Sergeant Dodd formerly represented. That was Liberal retrenchment, economy, and reform. [Laughter.] Hon. Members laughed, but this £3,500 a year meant £100,000, for it was a perpetual judgeship. Though the Bill with respect to the abolition of the judgeship did not pass, the intention not to fill the vacancy was persisted in in the following year and again by Mr. Bryce last year. Irrespective of Party, therefore, it was a continuous policy until suddenly the present Chief Secretary was placed in an unfortunate and invidious position by a flagrant breach of Parliamentary faith on the part of his predecessor. The Government had taken away what would have provided £100,000 for the purposes of the Labourers Act to reward a most capable and competent gentleman who had served them for twenty years.
  MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I must deprecate these constant references to
  1352
  rewarding a capable and competent gentleman for political services. It introduces a personal element which is very undesirable, and furthermore, it has nothing to do with the form of the Motion which is now before the House.
  MR. MOOREsaid it was seldom that he had to be called to order. He would do his best to obey the ruling, and he trusted he would not be found transgressing again. In reply to a Question which he put on the Notice Paper, the Chief Secretary had informed him that Mr. Justice Dodd was appointed to hear and determine Land Commission appeals, and that there were some 7,000 of these appeals pending. These, of course, were appeals from the fixing of fair rents. As a matter of fact, the bulk of these appeals were over. Rents were first fixed in 1881, and there was a great rush to the Land Courts until 1885. These were the yearly tenancies. After that there was a diminution of appeals until the House passed the Act enabling leaseholders to come in, and then there was a rush of leaseholders until 1900. The leaseholders second term of fifteen years expired in 1904, and the bulk of the notices of the leaseholders' appeals—which was practically all that was left for the Land Commission to decide now—had been served. The number of 7,000 would certainly never be increased, and Mr. Bryce had told them that they would be disposed of more quickly in the future. There was less chance of appeals owing to the extension of land purchase, and of the 7,000 now pending not more than 5,000 in all probability would ever go on. The principle which appeared to be actuating the Government was that the smaller the business the more men were wanted to do it. He moved the adjournment of the House to call attention to this matter as a matter of principle. Unless there was in this House a watchful Opposition ready to expose actions of this sort, which certainly were open to criticism, they would never know what else might happen, or to what other departments in Ireland—for it seemed safe in Ireland for the Government to experiment as it pleased—this principle might be extended.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHsaid that although he represented an English constituency, he thought he could claim to have the right to second the Motion of the hon. and learned Member, and to speak on behalf of Ireland. He would like to join with the mover of the Motion in saying that he approached the subject in no hostile spirit to Sergeant Dodd, to whom this judgeship had been given, for he recognised that from a public point of view there was no man more qualified to occupy that position. He would like to draw attention to the principle underlying this question, a principle which reflected on the honour and integrity of the House. This was a matter of such great importance that he thought the House would agree that they should receive some very definite and conclusive statement from His Majesty's Government on the subject. It must be admitted that they on that side of the House, and also the country, had been taught to attach very little importance to what they might call Government speeches and Government undertakings. ["Oh, oh."] The Government was the Government of the British Empire, and a speech or undertaking given on the responsibility of that Government should be carried out regardless of all Party motives. He had no desire, and he did not think that was a fitting opportunity, to traverse old ground, and he thought perhaps he might come within the range of the Speaker's ruling if he ventured to speak in detail of the measure in which the Government had not carried out their pledges; but he thought, in support of his contention, he might perhaps refer to the Chinese Labour question.
  THE DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member surely knows that this has nothing whatever to do with the question at issue.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHsaid he ventured to put it forward in support of his argument that various pledges and undertakings given by the Government had not been carried out, and he would like to ask the Government if such an undertaking as had been given more than once in this matter was to be deliberately set aside. If so, it was difficult to realise why the Government should go out of their way to give an undertaking. It was difficult for those
  1354
  who, like himself, were connected with the North of Ireland to elicit the sympathies of Nationalist Members, but he felt sure that they were at one on this question, because in this particular case funds had been diverted which otherwise would have been utilised for the benefit of the people of Ireland, and he would hope to receive the assistance of the hon. Members to whom he referred in the division lobby later on. It could not be said that there was any doubt about the words of the late Chief Secretary for Ireland, and he had no doubt that had Mr. Bryce been in the same post now he would have loyally carried out those utterances. The present Chief Secretary had told them, in one or two very humorous speeches, that he was new to the Irish Office, and he ventured to say that the right hon. Gentleman did not quite realise that in parting from the serene atmosphere of the Education Department he had fallen into what might be termed a controversial vortex in placing himself at the head of Irish politics. The Government might endeavour to explain the matter away, and it might be their purpose to show that they had taken upon themselves the fulfilment of a private undertaking. He thought, however, that if there was a public pledge given in this House and an undertaking from a private individual, the public pledge should most certainly have priority. It might be that their plans had miscarried, and that unforeseen circumstances had arisen, or rather that foreseen circumstances had not arisen; and in that case they would be on the horns of a dilemma. But when a statement was made by one of His Majesty's Ministers, it was a statement for which the whole of the Government was responsible, and it was certainly with anxiety that he looked forward to the speech of the Chief Secretary as to the motives which had induced him to depart from the undertaking of his predecessor. It might be the desire of the right hon. Gentleman, if he might use the expression, to reward the Irish Party, and he certainly thought they were deserving of a great deal of reward at his hands. Nationalist Members were prepared, he was going to say, to make almost any sacrifice to obtain the support of the Government, and that perhaps would be seen as the session advanced. But the fact remained that the original pledge given by the late Chief Secretary

  1355
  had been deliberately broken, and he did not think that the words which he used in giving that pledge could come under the heading of a terminological inexactitude. The question of economy must be considered, and it was obvious to all that the elimination of redundant judgeships must be a question of economy. Economy was another cry by which the Government obtained the power which they now held, but he could not see that up to the present they had shown any very economical spirit. He would like to repeat what had been argued by the mover of the Motion, namely, that an emolument of £3,500 a year had been placed at the disposal of a Judge, whereas it ought to have been used in facilitating the operation of the Labourers (Ireland) Act. He did not wish to be led into discussing the discrepancies between Liberal words and Liberal actions, but he would ask if they were to take every utterance of His Majesty's Government cum grano salis, or on the other hand, were they to believe that every utterance of His Majesty's Government meant diametrically the opposite? He thought it would not be out of place to use the now historic words of the Prime Minister, "Enough of this foolery," for he thought the action of the Government could come under no other designation when they said one thing and immediately did another. They had seen nothing but inconsistency from the beginning of the session up to the present moment. He had no idea what line the Government would take on this question, and he could only say that their action had most decidedly belied their words. He had great pleasure in seconding the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Moore.)
  MR. J. MACVEAGHsaid he rose to give his moral support to the Motion for the adjournment; but for reasons which he would subsequently indicate, he regretted that he would be reluctantly compelled to transfer his material support to the other lobby. His reasons for supporting this Motion were, however, very different from those assigned by the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh, but the difference between them was more apparent than real;
  1356
  for both of them were agreed that the Government was guilty of culpable negligence in passing over the claims of another member of the Irish Bar whom modesty forbade the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh to name. The hon. and learned Member had referred to a resolution passed that day by the Council of the Irish Bar, composed almost wholly of Tories and place-hunters; but he could quite understand why the hon. and learned Member did not quote the whole of the resolution, which, not only expressed unqualified approval of Serjeant Dodd's appointment to the Bench, but unqualified disapproval of the conduct of the hon. and learned Member who had brought forward this Motion. He had listened with interest to the eloquent praise bestowed by the hon. and learned Member for North Armagh on the Judicature Bill for Ireland proposed in this House. He hoped no one would rise to point out that when that Bill was proposed it was blocked by the hon. and learned Gentleman. There was really nothing in that point unless one wanted to establish the principle that an Ulster Unionist should be consistent, and from any such deplorable result as that, might the good Lord deliver them. The great fault in judicial appointments in Ireland was, that they were made not from considerations of legal attainments, but from considerations of political services, and the hon. and learned Member and he would have been delighted if the Government upon this occasion had departed from the evil course followed by the Tory Government during the last ten years, and had appointed a political opponent. And who, amongst political opponents, had claims equal to a certain Member who should be nameless? The Liberal Party should not forget the distinguished services which this Gentleman had rendered, but on this occasion he thought that they had shown base ingratitude and that the hon. Gentleman might say—
  "Blow, blow thou winter wind,
  Thou art not so unkind
  As man's ingratitude."
  Hon. Members might not be aware that this candidate in whom he was interested had any claims whatever upon the Liberal Party. But who was it who unearthed Sir Antony MacDonnell when he was lurking in the cellars of Dublin

  1357
  Castle; who turned the lantern upon the dark chamber and dragged him out into the light of day? Who was it who made the pace so hot for that arch-conspirator, the Member for Dover, that the right hon. Gentleman had to execute a strategic move to the rear at the bidding of his late private secretary?
  MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member is getting away from the point.
  MR. J. MACVEAGHsaid he would be sorry to get away from the point, and he certainly hoped that there was no truth in the suggestion that the Government had not made the appointment which he suggested because they hoped he would still press for the production of the MacDonnell letters. He had in his mind a Member who would be a much better occupant of the Bench than Serjeant Dodd. He was the one who broke up the solid phalanx of the Ulster Members and smashed it into the shattered fragments which they had before them. He submitted that a service of that kind constituted an undoubted claim upon the Liberal Party. He was afraid, however, that it was too late now to remedy the mischief that had been done. He appreciated the services of Serjeant Dodd and how unselfish he was, and perhaps he was wrong in saying that it was too late to repair the damage which had caused this great constitutional crisis. Perhaps if the Government appealed to Serjeant Dodd he would give up the loaves and fishes, and then the Government could appoint the hon. Member he wished. At all events if they applied to Serjeant Dodd he was sure he would send a reply. But if that failed, might he appeal to the Chief Secretary to use his influence with the Lord Chancellor in another direction. There was a vacancy in the Court of Appeal, and he would suggest that his friend should be sent up to keep company with Lord Atkinson. He had done his duty in urging the claims of the Member for North Armagh, but if the Government turned a deaf ear to his warning, if they dared to refuse a job to every Ulster Unionist who desired it, on the Government's own head would be the consequences.
  MR. DILLONsaid it was really a very edifying and refreshing spectacle to some of them to see hon. Members of the Ulster Tory Party posturing in this House as the advocates of economy. The noble Viscount who seconded the Motion certainly had an ancestral claim to insist upon purity in national administration. He thought before they preached virtue they ought to practice it. It was quite true that a Bill was introduced in 1904 by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover to abolish this judgeship, but from the Order Paper of 28th July of that year it appeared that Motions to read it that day three months or six months appeared in the names of Mr. Charles Craig, Colonel Saunderson, Mr. Thomas Corbett, Mr. Sloan and Mr. Lonsdale. So that hon. Members of the Party above the gangway who blocked the Judicature and Development Grant Bill when it was introduced by the late Government now had the audacity to get up and censure the present Government for not carrying out that which they opposed when their own Government was in power.
  MR. MOOREsaid his statement was that the late Government refused to make this appointment.
  MR. DILLONasked what was the position with which they had to deal? Fair rent appeals had accumulated to an enormous extent, and everybody was of opinion that something should be done to remove the block, which was inflicting great injustice upon the poor tenantry in Ireland. In many cases tenants had had their rents fixed, but the appeals had been pending for six years. What was the hon. Gentleman's remedy? He asked whether Judge Ross had not offered to go and hear these appeals. He (Mr. Dillon) did not know what Judge Ross had offered, but he knew what all Ireland would have done if Judge Ross had been sent to do this work. He did not know anything which would have raised such a tempest of indignation. This Government, at all events, would not, he hoped, dream of taking that course. The fact was that great pressure had been brought upon the Government for the last two years to do something to facilitate the hearing of these appeals.

  1359
  To get over the difficulty the Government had appointed Judge Dodd for the purpose of hearing these appeals. The hon. Member for North Armagh, before he got to the end of his speech, had forgotten the beginning, because, in the first instance, he said that this would mean a loss to the Irish people of £3,500 a year, but at the end said the loss would be inflicted upon the British taxpayer. If he (Mr. Dillon) thought it would inflict a further charge of £3,500 upon Ireland he might hesitate, although he would not grudge that sum in order to relieve these poor tenants. He had not, however, such a conscience with regard to British taxpayers, as he thought that they owed Ireland something. The whole of this movement was a dishonest farce, because it was an attempt to turn the House of Commons into an election platform, but, as the hon. Gentleman must know, the people of Ireland were far too intelligent to be humbugged in that way.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL,)said he was very much indebted to the mover and seconder and other hon. Members for showing that nobody had any strong objection to their old friend Serjeant Dodd. Everybody agreed, and nobody more so than the hon. Member for North Armagh, that his services had long been overlooked, while his great abilities and high character were acknowledged. He wondered under these circumstances why his right hon. friend the Member for South Dublin had overlooked him for so long. He was glad that if this was to be taken as a job it was one with so happy a purpose. There had been many jobs in Ireland, some on a great and some on a small scale. Some were jobs involving the appointment of a Judge, while one involved the sale of a nation, which had led to consequences far more serious than this case. He was happy to see that everybody acknowledged that the new Judge was well qualified for his post and would adorn the Bench. The whole urgency of this matter rested upon the necessity of getting rid of these arrears in fair rent appeals. In this matter he would describe himself as a middle-aged man in a hurry to settle the land war in Ireland by working the Land Purchase Act at what might be de-
  1360
  scribed as the high water mark of Treasury complaisance. He wondered how long such terms would be continued, but so far the Act had worked successfully. Applications had been made for large sums of money, but, because of judicial delay, 7,000 fair rent appeals were pending in the Court, and unless these appeals could be settled, and settled quickly, the tenantry of Ireland would be wearied to the last degree with the delay. The tenant was not educated enough to understand the subtleties of his (Mr. Birrell's) own profession, and what he wanted was that his application to become a purchaser on reasonable terms should be dealt with. Everyone agreed that some speed had taken place in past years, but notwithstanding, they could not, and ought not, to be content to brook a moment of delay that could be prevented in bringing the Land Purchase Act into full working, as well as to provide, if necessary, legislation to put the evicted tenants on their holdings. This pressed most to his mind at the present time, when every action possible on the part of the Government to bring about these two results was imperatively necessary. He agreed that if the Bill introduced by the right hon. Member for Dover or the Bill introduced by his predecessor last session had passed into law—and hon. Gentlemen opposite took good care it should not—the step of which complaint was made could not have been taken, and the Government would have had to find some other means of accelerating the hearing of these cases. But as neither of those Bills became law, it was open to the Government, having regard to the present state of business, to do all they could to get rid of these arrears. In a matter of this kind they attached importance to the opinion of the head of the Irish Judicature. The Lord Chancellor wrote to him that at the present rate of progress it would take two years or more to dispose of the appeals pending. It appeared that every year a considerable number—2,000 or 3,000 at least—came upon the paper for settlement, but they were always followed by new cases, and it was essential that the Judges should be able to deal with them as they arose. The Chief Commissioner, who was taking an active part in the distribution of money under the Land Purchase Act, had more than sufficient to occupy his whole time.

  1361
  He had been obliged to postpone the distribution of over £100,000. The Examiners of Title—twenty-four in number—gave all their time, and new rules were being made to accelerate the work. There was about £1,500,000 of purchase money awaiting distribution by the Judicial Commission, and £184,000 awaiting distribution by the Chancery Division. It was with the object of disposing of this congestion that Sergeant Dodd had been appointed. This had been called a job, but he did not care what it was called, so long as the work was done. The suggestion was that the Government should wait for dead men's shoes, until those happy, comfortable, well-paid pensioners—and he did not wish to disturb them—had dropped off, before they secured their object. But the Government could not afford to wait, and were determined not to wait, and therefore they had availed themselves of this opportunity of meeting a pressing emergency by appointing a gentleman well qualified to discharge these duties. He was surprised that the appointment was objected to. So far as the labourers were concerned, their case would not suffer in any way by this appointment. The Government would proceed with the measure they had in contemplation, which would reduce the Lord Chancellors' salary from£8,000 to £6,000 a year, and provide that two of the next three vacant judgeships would not be filled up. Therefore the most that could be alleged against the Government was that the operation of economy in this matter had been suspended in the face of a great public emergency. It was said that this particular judgeship would be for ever. It was nothing of the kind. It would not be permanent. That might not be popular with the Irish Bar. He thought that the statement he had read to the House from the Lord Chancellor—an opinion supported by the impartial vote, not of frenzied partisans in that House, but of the Judges of the Four Courts, Dublin—justified the Government in making this appointment in the interests of the public. The Government believed that this was a necessary appointment in order to carry out necessary work, and they were not satisfied to allow these arrears to go on year after year. They wanted to see them disposed of as rapidly as possible, and therefore they had taken this step,
  1362
  but it in no way involved more than a delay in their policy of reform, and he hoped when they introduced their Bill the hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends would see the error of their ways and would amend their habits, and become for the first time in their lives active and zealous economists.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid the right hon. Gentleman in his speech had founded his case on the desire that the work of his Department should be done, but they had heard the real explanation from the hon. Member for East Mayo, who had animadverted upon the newly-developed desire of Ulster Members for economy. The right hon. Gentleman had asked why he (Mr. Long) had not, whilst he was Chief Secretary, recognised the claims of Mr. Justice Dodd, as he now was; but during the time that he was Chief Secretary no vacancy occurred on the Irish Bench. He regarded himself, however, as bound by the condition which had been laid down by his predecessor that, unless some exceptional circumstances could be shown, there was to be no change in his policy. The right hon. Gentleman had found quite suddenly that all the views of his predecessors were unfounded, but the remarkable thing was that there had been 2,000 cases cleared off since the last statement was made in the House, and they had every reason to believe that they were now proceeding with increased rapidity. When he himself was Chief Secretary, though it might have been necessary to make some small re-arrangements among the existing Judges, there was no need whatever for the appointment of a fresh one. It was suggested that some of the work might be transferred to a learned Member of the Bench to whom he would not refer, but the hon. Member for East Mayo had answered that point, because he had stated that he and his Party would have resisted and resented any such transfer or re-arrangement; in other words, that the only thing to which they, the masters of the Treasury bench, would assent was an appointment of which they approved, and which led them to believe that the work of the Bench would be justly performed. They knew from hon. Gentlemen below the gangway from long experience what was their idea of justice in the performance of

  1363
  this kind of work, and it did not encourage them in viewing the future when the real reason for this appointment was given with so much candour by representatives of the Nationalist Party. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the line taken by his predecessor in office, Mr. Bryce. His hon. and learned friend had also referred to the introduction of the Labourers Act. He was not a Member of the House unfortunately last session, and he did not realise how much stress was laid on the circumstances which justified the then Chief Secretary in appealing to the House, which he did on more than one occasion, to take the Bill as a non-controversial measure agreed upon on all sides. The right hon. Gentleman in answer to the hon. Member for East Mayo, had told them that it was perfectly true that this money would be subtracted from the money available for the Irish Labourers Act, but that he and the Government would take care that they did not suffer and that the money would be made good. The hon. Member for East Mayo was quite right; they could not have it both ways. The money under the Labourers Act was voted by Parliament as part of the financial arrangements of that Act, and it was subtracted from by the appointment of this Judge. The money would have to be found somewhere, and the hon. Member for East Mayo could afford to look with complacency upon a proposal which would lay an additional charge upon the British taxpayer. He was astonished when he heard that this appointment had been made, without the smallest intimation to the House of the intention to depart from the arrangement made, and without the smallest evidence to show that there had been any material alteration in the conditions which existed at the time the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor made it, which made it necessary to appoint the new Judge, for all time, as his hon. and learned friend had said. The Chief Secretary had taken objection to that statement. Did the right hon. Gentleman think that these appeals would last more than two years? Did he
  believe that he would be more fortunate than his predecessors, and did he think that he would have at his disposal the necessary vacancies on the Bench which would enable him to provide fresh work for this new Judge, and at the same time keep the promises which had been made? The right hon. Gentleman was the great Minister who was supposed to keep his promises, as if—he would be excused for saying so—he was the one Minister who desired to do so. At all events the right hon. Gentleman justified his action as compared with that of his predecessors, and had adopted a line which he could not maintain. He thought his hon. and learned friend was abundantly justified in the Motion he had made, and he could safely say that if the Unionists had been in office, and had thought it necessary to make this departure from the Parliamentary bargain which had been entered into, without notice or indication of their intention, without the production of any evidence to show that special circumstances had arisen to justify their action, they would have had a debate far more excited than the present one had been, and a condemnation expressed by hon. Gentlemen below the gangway far more severe and personal than anything that had been said that evening. If they found the change which had been made behind him unsatisfactory, he could only say that that change was infinitesimal compared with the change in hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, who were to-day prepared to regard as virtuous the appointment of a new Judge, which, in the time of the late Government, they would have regarded as altogether vicious and unsatisfactory.
  MR. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERrose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 57. (Division List No. 19.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Barrow, Percy (Bedford)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Baker, Joseph A (Finsbury, E.)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Alden, Percy

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

  Beale, W. P.

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Barker, John

  Beauchamp, E.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Murphy, John

  Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Bertram, Julius

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Billson, Alfred

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  O'Dowd, John

  Boland, John

  Hedges, A. Paget

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Brace, William

  Herbert, Colone Ivor.(Mon, S.)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Partington, Oswald

  Brigg, John

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Paul, Herbert

  Brodie, H. C.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh

  Hodge, John

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Chesh.

  Hogan, Michael

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Power, PatrickJoseph

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Hooper, A. G.

  Radford, G. H.

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hudson, Walter

  Reddy, M.

  Cameron, Robert

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Jackson, R. S.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Jenkins, J.

  Richards, T.E (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Clough, William

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Jowett, F. W.

  Robinson, S.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Joyce, Michael

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Cowan, W. H.

  Kelley, George D.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Cox, Harold

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Cremer, William Randal

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Rose, Charles Day

  Crossley, William J.

  King, Alfred. John (Knutsford)

  Runciman, Walter

  Cullinan, J.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Sears, J. E.

  Delany, William

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lambert, George

  Seddon, J.

  Dillon, John

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Duckworth, James

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Duffy, William J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Lough, Thomas

  Snowden, P.

  Elibank, Master of

  Lundon, W.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bg'hs

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down S.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Fenwick, Charles

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Ferens, T. R.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Crae, George

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Findlay, Alexander

  M'Kean, John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  M'Killop, W.

  Thorne, William

  Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Toulmin, George

  Ginnell, L.

  Maddison, Frederick

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Verney, F. W.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Meagher, Michael

  Wadsworth, J.

  Glover, Thomas

  Menzies, Walter

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Mond, A.

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Montagu, E. S.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Gulland, John W.

  Montgomery, H. G.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mooney, J. J.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Morrell, Philip

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Hall, Frederick

  Morse, L. L.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Halpin, J.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  White, George (Norfolk)

  1366

  1367

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Young, Samuel

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.

  Pease.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Fell, Arthur

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hervey, F. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cave, George

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Liddell, Henry

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Younger, George

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Sir

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Moore, William

  Lord Balcarres

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Question put accordingly, "That this House do now adjourn".
  The House divided:—Ayes, 63; Noes, 264. (Division List No. 20.)

  AYES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Remnant James Farquharson.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Douglas, Rt.Hon. A. Akers-

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hicks

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fell, Arthur

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford East)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cave, George

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Liddell, Henry

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S

  Younger, George

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Lord Balcarres.

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Moore, William

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

  Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barker, John

  Bertram, Julius

  Alden, Percy

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Bethell, Sir JH. (Essex, Romford

  Allen. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Barnes, G. N.

  Billson, Alfred

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Beale, W. P.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Boland, John

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Brace, William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Brigg, John

  Hedges, A. Paget

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.

  O'Dowd, John

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Hodge, John

  Partington, Oswald

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Hogan, Michael

  Paul, Herbert

  Byles, William Pollard

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Cameron, Robert

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Hudson, Walter

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Radford, G. H.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Clough, William

  Jackson, R. S.

  Reddy, M.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Jenkins, J.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Rees, J. D.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Cowan, W. H.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th)

  Cox, Harold

  Jowett, F. W.

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Cremer, William Randal

  Joyce, Michael

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Crombie, John William

  Kelley, George D.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Crossley, William. J.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Cullinan, J.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Robinson, S.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Delany, William

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lamb, Enmund G. (Leominster

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Dillon, John

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Lambert, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Duckworth, James

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

  Sears, J. E.

  Duffy, William J.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Seddon, J.

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Levy, Maurice

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Elibank, Master of

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lough, Thomas

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lundon, W.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Snowden, P.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Ffrench, Peter

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Findlay, Alexander

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Callum, John M.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  M'Crae, George

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  M'Kean, John

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Ginnell, L.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Sullivan, Donal

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Glover, Thomas

  Maddison, Frederick

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan), E.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Massie, J.

  Thorne, William

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Meagher, Michael

  Tomkinson, James

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Menzies, Walter

  Toulmin, George

  Gulland, John W.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mond, A.

  Verney, F. W.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Montagu, E. S.

  Wadsworth, J.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Montgomery, H. G.

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Hall, Frederick

  Mooney, J. J.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Halpin, J.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Morrell, Philip

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Morse, L. L

  Waring, Walter

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Murphy, John

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Nolan, Joseph

  1370

  1371

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Wodehouse, Lord

  Weir, James Galloway

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Young, Samuel

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'rth'n

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Main Question put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY (ARMY ESTIMATES).
  Postponed Proceeding on Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," resumed.
  Question again proposed.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT,continuing his speech, said he wished to call the attention of the Secretary of State for War and the House to the very serious character of some of the changes which were proposed in regard to the Volunteer force and especially as to the engagement for four years. Men were to be prevented leaving except on three months notice, or the payment of £5. As about 80 per cent. of the Volunteers consisted of artisans who had to change their place of habitation sometimes at a few days' notice, it was a serious matter for them to be called upon to pay the heavy fine proposed in order to be released from their obligations. His fear was that such a condition would have a serious effect upon the recruiting of the Volunteer force. He had had an opportunity of hastily glancing at the Memorandum epitomising the speech of the right hon. Gentleman and giving a general view of the financial arrangements which were proposed. He could not say from a perusal of the document that he was enamoured of the scheme in regard to the Auxiliary forces propounded by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman deserved the utmost credit for the manner in which he had made himself acquainted with all the difficult problems involved, and brought forward a considered scheme for the improvement of the second line, and if in criticising it they had to take exception to many of the proposals made he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would only consider that the criticisms were made with a genuine feeling that they desired to do the best they could for the forces of the country, and not from any feeling hostile to himself, or in any way whatever partaking of a Party character. In addition to the difficulty in con-
  1372
  nection with the long engagement in the territorial army, there was also the further liability to serve in the event of mobilisation for six months. That would also have a very serious effect indeed on a large class of men, including the better class of artisans engaged in the iron and steel trades, the leather and clothing trades, whose services in the event of mobilisation would be absolutely necessary in their factories and workshops for Army supplies. Anybody who was acquainted with the enormous strain upon these and other trades during the South African war would realise how true that was, and to call these men away from their workshops and factories for six months upon mobilisation would stifle the whole trade of the country. The only alternative would be for commanding officers or recruiting authorities, whichever they were, to refuse to accept these men; but to reject such men would be to deprive the territorial army of its very best material. The scheme in any case would have to be reconsidered from that point of view. Another reason why the plan was unsatisfactory was that it did away with the Yeomanry and Volunteers. Parents had no objection whatever to their sons enrolling in the Volunteer force; they knew that it implied no liability for foreign service, except by consent. But the state of affairs would be different when a man joined the territorial Army with the liability of long engagement, the difficulty of notice, compulsory service, and mobilisation. He had a strong impression that they would find a considerable movement in all parts of the country on the part of parents against their sons joining the territorial Army. Unfortunately, but undoubtedly, there still existed a considerable prejudice among the civil population against their sons joining the Regular Army; and it was by maintaining the name of Volunteers and the voluntary character of the Volunteer force that we had escaped the disadvantages of that prejudice. As to the financial arrangements of the Volunteer force,

  1373
  he noticed from Clause 4 of the Memorandum that no payments of any kind were to be made except an allowance for railway fares to the rifle ranges. He thought the withdrawal of the musketry allowance of 4s. would be a very serious matter indeed. He contended that the allowance of £55 per battalion for the expenses of drill hall and rifle ranges would not anything like meet the expenses entailed in the case of a large number of corps. No doubt those details had been carefully worked out from an average of the expenses of Volunteer regiments, but they would cause much hardship in many cases. The object of the Secretary of State in forming the county associations referred to in the Memorandum was to create county feeling, and esprit de corps, and to endeavour to win them into the greatest possible state of efficiency. But by Clause 10 they were to take away from these county associations all their individual and county character and put them entirely under the thumb of the military authorities. The Volunteer force owed its position at the present time, not at all to the encouragement of the Government, no matter which Party was in power. All Governments since the existence of the Volunteer force had been very reluctant to give it any sympathy or encouragement. That force, which now consisted of no less than 248,000 men, had always been carried on by its own determination to do something in the service of the country, and to put the county associations under the control of the military authorities would be to deprive them of that voluntary character and that esprit de corps which was so absolutely essential to their existence. As regarded the Yeomanry, although as a Volunteer he had looked with considerable suspicion, or rather jealousy, at the large sums and adulation given to the Yeomanry, he recognised that it was a very good force indeed. It now consisted of fifty-six regiments, and to take away by a stroke of the pen the whole of their emoluments, and to give them only when in training 1s. 6d. per day, which was the pay of the cavalry, would be a very serious blow indeed to the efficiency of that force. He must say that, although one admired the courage and the ability the right hon. Gentleman had shown in endeavouring to grapple with the difficulties of the problem,
  1374
  there was a strong feeling in the country that to put the Auxiliary forces and their finance entirely under the control and power of the military authorities would take away from regiments and commanding officers that individuality which had been the backbone of the Volunteer force. He had commanded different Volunteer regiments, including artisan corps, and he knew from experience that the commanding officer was able to veto extravagant expenditure on the part of Committees by the exercise of wholesome and judicious control. He knew that he was in a minority in this respect; but nevertheless he maintained that the financial responsibility of the commanding officer gave him much more authority and control than he could otherwise obtain, and the removal of it would put a premium on the bad regiments; the well-administered regiments would be sacrificed to those who had managed their affairs carelessly and with indifference. He did not admire the constitution of the county associations; and he hoped it was not too late to urge the Secretary of State for War to revise the rule in regard to long service, because he was very apprehensive indeed that his scheme would be more unfavourably received than he had any idea of.
  MR. GUESTsaid the reduction of 32,000 men which the Secretary of State was able to announce was not so large as many hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House had hoped for. But at any rate it was a substantial instalment of that policy of reduction which they desired. When, moreover, it was accompanied by a reduction of the Army Estimates by £2,000,000, that surely was a very satisfactory beginning, and he welcomed the scheme of the Secretary of State, because it appeared to him that the right hon. Gentleman was embarking upon a policy which must end in a far larger reduction of the Army than he was able to bring about in the present year. His right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean had criticised the Secretary of State for War and pointed out the difficulties of the transition stage. But there must always be such a stage in any policy, and he would not be surprised if the Secretary of State for War was able to point out that the difficulties

  1375
  of the transition stage would not be less if the policy which the right hon. Baronet advocated were adopted than they would be under his own scheme. There must be difficulties in the transition stage, but what they had to fix their eyes on was whether the object which they proposed to achieve was a worthy one, and if there were difficulties they must make up their minds to overcome them. The late Secretary of State for War had made a speech the terms of which were, he thought, unfortunate, when contrasted with the very conciliatory speech with which these proposals had been presented. He thought it was a mistake that matters of this kind, which had admittedly puzzled the brains of successive Ministers for War, should be treated in a carping spirit by hon. Members opposite. [Sir Howard Vincent: I did not do that.] He had not said that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had done so; he was alluding to the speech of the late Secretary for War, which seemed to him unfortunate in its terms. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to wish to show that the battalion under the scheme of the Secretary of State for War was a bad one whereas under his own scheme it was a good one. He thought the right hon. Gentleman had proceeded on a false analogy, because he said that the battalions of the line would need reinforcing to the extent of 700 men before they could take the field. Entirely overlooking the fact that the existing process of securing reservists would continue under this scheme just as it had been in the past, and he could not see that the battalion which his right hon. friend the Secretary for War had in his mind would be any less efficient than the battalion which the right hon. Gentleman opposite proposed by his scheme. The men serving with the colours at the present moment would be brought up to their full strength on mobilisation, and there would be no recourse in the first instance to the training battalions. [Mr. HALDANE assented.] Therefore the criticism of the right hon. Gentleman opposite was based upon an entire misapprehension of the proposals laid before the House. The Reserve to-day was 125,000 men, and it would under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman be larger, because of the five and seven years' enlistments, except that the reduction of the Army would, pro tanto, reduce the Reserves.
  MR. HALDANEsaid the Reserves would rise to 136,000, and would be normally 115,000, which would be more than enough for the mobilisation of the whole of the battalions.
  MR. GUESTsaid he was obliged for the interruption, which exactly expressed the point he was making. The battalions in the future would be capable of complete mobilisation on their own Reserves, without having recourse to the training battalions which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to establish. He understood that the Home force would depend upon those reservists whom the training battalions had trained. Therefore, they would not be in a worse position under this scheme than they would have been under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Then the late Secretary for War had made another statement, which had been repeated by others, that the new scheme destroyed the Militia. His right hon. friend did not say so, and he did not think that the conclusion followed from what he had said. There was nothing to prevent his raising his seventy-four training battalions without interfering with the Militia at all, and he hoped he would do that. The object was to merge Militia, Volunteers, and Yeomanry into a new territorial force with territorial names, but he did not think we should gain much by making it a territorial force, and abolishing the old names, which had a great deal of magic in them and were of great value to the force. It was impossible on the "Bakerloo" principle to find a name to include all the forces, and the old names had a value in the sentiment of old traditions. He did not see where the objection came in to retaining the words "Volunteers," "Yeomanry," and "Militia," and to allow them to fall into their new cadres under their old names. He noticed that his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War laughed, but if he could make that concession to the prejudices of those who had served in these forces, he thought he would be wise to do so. In this connection he would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if the existing cadres would entirely disappear or would they be used to form the new organisation.
  MR. HALDANEsaid the new organisation would be formed round them,

  1377
  and they would come into the new organisation. The scheme was as far as possible to include them in the new organisation.
  MR. GUESTsaid another point hat arose was that we were greatly in excess of the requirements which the right hon. Gentleman had in his mind. The Auxiliary Forces were to be reduced by something like 140,000. He hoped there was to be some elasticity in the number of 300,000 suggested, because it would be a pity to discourage service given voluntarily and which cost little. He thought the observations of the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean upon the question of keeping the more difficult services, cavalry and artillery, on a professional basis most important having regard to the enormous diminution of horseflesh caused by the introduction of motor cars. The matter of cavalry remounts would have to be very seriously considered in the near future, owing to the fact of motor buses and motor cabs taking the place of horse-drawn vehicles in our streets. The problem of cavalry remounts would in the future become very difficult indeed. Apart from these details there was much in the scheme which would commend itself to those who had considered the question of Army reform, because there was no doubt our Auxiliary Forces were almost useless for military purposes at the present time owing to their want of mobility. There were many good points in this scheme, such as confined training and other matters. Never in his experience of the corps with which he was connected was this more demonstrated than in the case of the difficulty and the necessity of transport. It was clear to him that Yeomanry who merely went out for eighteen days drill were not in any sense of the word equipped or efficient for actual warfare, and it was a good feature of the scheme that we were to have an attempt to make these forces efficient. With regard to the reserve of the Auxiliary Forces, he had always regretted that so much good material that passed through the Yeomanry so rapidly was entirely lost sight of. Many of these men had served six years and could be equipped and trained at little cost. The Secretary of State for War had with engaging
  1378
  candour admitted that the force of 150,000 which he had provided under this scheme was based on no calculation of the duties which it had or might have to perform. The original force of 150,000 was based upon the number of drafts we had to supply to our foreign stations. That was the real justification for the army at home. The right hon. Gentleman must remember that the number of men required for drafts depended entirely on the term served by the men, and that in proportion as the term of service was extended so would the number of drafts required be reduced; that if the right hon. Gentleman extended the service to fifteen years he would diminish the number of drafts required and consequently the number of men necessary to be enrolled in this country. The very scheme he was calling into existence would be a further justification for that course if, after three or four years, he was able to create an auxiliary force comparable to that of Switzerland, which would afford a real sense of security to the people of England. If that was achieved it would be an argument for reducing the Regular Army.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I do not rise at this stage to criticise the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman has unfolded with so much ability this afternoon. I shall pass no opinion upon it at the present time, but reserve to myself the right to say at a later stage what impression has been made upon my mind. I think, however, the speech to which we have just listened shows that there are one or two points that ought to be cleared up. The hon. Member who last spoke seemed to think a question of name, and name alone, was involved in the treatment which the right hon. Gentleman has meted out to the Militia and Volunteers. If that is so either he or I have completely misunderstood the speech delivered with so much lucidity by the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon. This is not a question of name and name alone. There have been two views in the past—either that you should do what Pitt intended and what Cardwell intended, namely, that you should bring the Militia nearer to the line and more in touch with the depots—that was one school of thought—or that you should bring your line up to its

  1379
  full strength and efficiency and relegate your Militia to the condition of Volunteers. There were two distinct views as to how you might deal with the Militia. Both were questions of substance and not questions of name. The right hon. Gentleman has done neither of these quite clearly, but has done something else—something which tends to make it difficult to understand what in fact he has done. He has taken so much of the first plan as consists of turning the recruits under it into the depot, and he has taken so much of the second plan as to enable him to hand over the officers to the regiment in a body. He does not want them to enlist nor to get paid for six months, and so they can be Volunteers if they please. That is a new way of dealing with the Militia, on which I shall express an opinion when the opportunity offers. In the next place, I must dissociate myself altogether from a remark made by the last speaker. He accused my right hon. friend the Member for Croydon of approaching the subject in a partisan spirit. I do not think that charge was justified. My right hon. friend has almost a unique knowledge of all the technical aspects of this question, having devoted years of his life to its study, years before he was War Minister, and I think no one who heard him will think that he went an inch beyond what might be expected from a man who had the interests of the Army at heart. I think I may say for every one on this side of the House that we shall be critical, but candid. The right hon. Gentleman has been studying the matter for over a year, and he has given us the result of his researches in a three hours' speech. I hope, therefore, that he will not expect those who care not only for the Army but the Auxiliary Forces, to keep pace with him, but that he will give them time to form their conclusions and time to express those conclusions before he regards himself as in a position to say that he has collected the sense of the House. We must give candid consideration to the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman, because we have never made the defences of the country a Party question, and because we are under an obligation to the right hon. Gentleman which I should be the first person to acknowledge.
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  The right hon. Gentleman has done what his predecessors did, I believe for the first time in 1895, and did consistently for ten years, that is to say, he has explained to the soldier what he calls the policy of the Cabinet, and when the soldier said what was required, it was admitted that so much should be done. I do not think I exaggerate when I say—this is not a matter of Party recrimination—that up to 1895, both Liberal and Conservative Governments said that the Navy must have all its wants; but when it came to the Army they proceeded upon the lines of the Pickwick trial, and said that what the soldier stated was not evidence. We maintain, and the right hon. Gentleman maintains, that what the soldier says is evidence after he has been subjected to cross-examination, and, therefore, if any fault should ultimately be found with this scheme, the blame will not rest upon the soldier but upon the Government, who have told the soldier what their policy was for the defence of the country should war presently come upon us. The right hon. Gentleman in his memorandum has disposed once and for all of of the somewhat loose charge that the increase of the Army Estimates is due to incompetence and extravagance. I know the right hon. Gentleman has said that because ammunition columns were not formed, therefore, we could not mobilise the whole forces of the Army. I make him a present of that; it has been effectually dealt with by my right hon. friend the Member for Croydon. We supplied the Artillery with guns, and we supplied the Auxiliary troops and the Army, and we did our share of the work. The right hon. Gentleman will have our good wishes if he completes it, and there need be no recrimination between the two sides of the House as to that. We can, therefore, give a perfectly candid judgment upon these proposals which we must study in print to-morrow. We must study the speech and the printed document which he has laid upon the Table this evening, and then we shall be able to give our views upon the great proposals which he has unfolded. The right hon. Gentleman's scheme pre-supposes an effective Regular army and a cheap Regular army. He has claimed great economies on the

  1381
  Regular Army. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the origin of his economies? Speaking this afternoon, he said that only£400,000 was due to reduction in personnel, but in his Memorandum he put the reduction in personnel at £1,120,000. There is a discrepancy which I have no doubt can be explained, but which I think ought to be explained. The right hon. Gentleman has not really modified the great features of the problem which we all have to face—the problem of keeping a large army abroad in time of peace. He has not touched it. Then where do the economies come from? On turning to the Estimates I find that they come largely from transport, remounts, and supplies. As the right hon. Baronet pointed out, and as occurred to me, while you are knocking off horses from the Artillery and mounted infantry, the Indian Government, whose model you follow, are adding 3,000 horses to the establishment. We come to the next great general source of economy, which includes harness. It is all very well to have theoretical plans for mobilising in the face of the remote contingency of a great European war, but I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that the two points of the greatest difficulty and anxiety during the first six weeks of the war in South Africa, and again in 1901, were horses and harness. You cannot expand your supply of horses or your supply of harness on the spur of the moment. At the beginning of 1901, after the war had been going on for more than a year, and when the country was clamouring for more mounted troops, the demand was only met by smuggling 30,000 saddles into this country from all parts of the world. That is a form of reserve which can only be provided by looking at the exact proportions of Regulars to Reservists and the three arms together. The next great source of reduction is armaments, £872,000. That is partly a matter of book-keeping and has nothing to do with any policy of the right hon. Gentleman. These four items account for a reduction of £1,660,000. For the rest, the reductions and increases pretty well balance. I fail to see any connection between this reduction of £2,000,000 and the policy which the right hon. Gentleman announced last year or the policy which he has announced to-
  1382
  night. I welcome the reduction except in regard to horses and harness, upon which I think more money can be judiciously expended. I do, however, ask the right hon. Gentleman to go a little more closely into the origin of his economies. It is not enough to say," Here is a saving of £2,000,000 and 7,000 men added to the effective." Why are 7,000 men added to the effective? Because we have got a huge increase in the Reserve, an automatic increase of over 12,000 men. Before the war it was a matter of speculation, but nevertheless within 1 per cent. the available Reservists joined the colours. The right hon. Gentleman says that under his organisation the old Reserve will stand normally at 115,000 men, but, in view of the abolition of eight cadres, the reduction of the period of enlistment from seven years to five, and the removal of thirty men from the establishment of all the regiments at home, I hope we shall be reassured on that point by some arithmetical argument which will carry conviction to our minds. I would also ask the right hon. Gentleman to clear up the question of the artillery. The right hon. Gentleman has explained that he is going to keep a certain number of battalions at home and thirty-three others upon a very low establishment, which are to be a sort of training school for the second line. I believe I am right in saying that the right hon. Gentleman has got one horse and two field artillery batteries less in this year's Estimates than he had last year. I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman has calculated on reducing the batteries of field artillery to a standard which none of those who sit on the Opposition side of the House have ever contemplated, and to which we cannot give our assent without consideration. Is it proposed to reduce all the field artillery to a four-gun standard?
  MR. HALDANE: We shall probably keep some batteries at full strength.
  MR. WYNDHAM: At present all the field artillery at borne is being reduced to the four-gun standard, and thirty-three batteries are being reduced to a two-gun standard. There are three batteries gone; and it is certain that the right hon. Gentleman holds a view which is not held on the Opposition benches about the bulk of the

  1383
  field artillery, and that he contemplates reducing thirty-three batteries to an educational basis and taking them from a military basis. I want to know whether that policy has been made so far concrete in fact as to explain some of the reductions in Votes 6, 7, 8 and 9, which are inexplicable on the theory that they are due to personnel as stated, by the right hon. Gentleman in his opening speech.
  MR. HALDANE: I think it will be convenient that I should answer at once the questions which have been addressed to me. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman is characterised by the fairness of its tone and the appropriateness of the questions which he has asked. I take what was said in regard to the artillery. We have not reduced a single battery. We have brought home six batteries from abroad, and we have put them on a four-gun basis. What I think has misled the right hon. Gentleman is this. We have taken off the programme six guns which belonged to the depots, because we have consolidated seven depots into four. I do not know where the right hon. Gentleman got his reduction of batteries.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I got them by comparing last year with this year.
  MR. HALDANE: All I can say is that having the comparison before me we have reduced no batteries. We propose to reduce the establishment to a four-gun basis in time of peace, following a sound Continental principle, and keep the horses and men in reserve; but we have reduced no batteries. What we have done is to apportion carefully the amount of artillery to the infantry division, and the surplus we have turned into training batteries. On that principle we have gone throughout. I hope we shall have enough to make twelve training brigades. As regards a reserve of artillery, well, I say frankly, that I do not believe in a reserve of artillery. Then we get men who do not know the new weapons, and we have difficulty in training these reserves to bring them up to the standard of knowledge required. I pass to the reduction of the establishment of the battalions. Observe we have brought them down to 720 in time of peace
  1384
  for home defence. But the right hon. Gentleman does not imagine that our battalions at home were anything like that strength. This reduction is a proper one to make because it brings facts more into accordance with names. The three years system has made it impossible for a long time to find the drafts. There is no question of strength; it is a question of establishment, and for some time to come we may be well content with 720. It represents more strength than we shall have. The right hon. Gentleman asks what is the real meaning of these reductions. How is it that we show a reduction so large when we have only reduced so few men? Well, it is a very interesting revelation. In the War Office a practice has been pursued on the part of the military side always to estimate to the margin. They loaded their Estimate because they were afraid of offending against a system which had been the practice. That acted on the Treasury and on the financial side. They always took more than they wanted. I found a system of over-estimating was going right through the whole Department. The heads of the Department did not know the extent to which it went. They always loaded a bit, the people below them loaded a bit without their knowing, and the people below them loaded, and so on until at the end of the year there were surpluses that for very shame had to be spent. The reason there is such a reduction in the artillery this year is that these surpluses have been used in paying cash and getting discounts. The cost of expensive guns has been spread over five years by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but by paying up earlier we get 3 per cent. discount. As a result of this loading the Estimates we have been able to prepay the guns. This year, too, establishments have been brought down to strength, and thereby a great deal of waste has been got rid of. It is possible that this year we will be able to return, not much, but some money to the Treasury. I think the War Office has got into the habit of over-estimating, and it will take a time before we extirpate the notion from their minds in regard to that practice. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Volunteers, but he left one very material element out of account. The reduction of the Volunteers is due to

  1385
  two elements. We have take a Supplementary Estimate this year for payments in connection with that force. What we have been proposing is that it will be no longer necessary to apply the same sort of capitation grant. Thereby we will reduce the annual expenditure for Volunteers. We found that the payment of 5s. a day for the Yeomanry had a most prejudicial effect, and consequently we abolished it. The right hon. Gentleman referred to stores. The reason why we are able to diminish the expenditure on stores is that we have a gigantic supply of saddlery as the result of the War. The other reductions in stores have nothing to do with war, but are made in connection with domestic use, and for the convenience of soldiers who were not going out to a campaign. Then in regard to horses, there was a great deal of over-estimate for the supply of horses, and we have reduced the money for, but not the establishment of, horses. In War Office parlance, horses included mules; and a great deal of the reduction was of mules used on works in South Africa. As to the question of India, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the War Office has not the slightest control over the way in which the Indian Government manages the Indian Army. The Indian Government has to find the horses.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: You have fewer horses here than the same officers think necessary in India.
  MR. HALDANE: I believe that the establishment of horses is high in India, but our advisors think that the large margin in India is not necessary here, because in India they do not register the horses in the same way as we do. The War Office has no more control over that than they have over the winds and tide, and if we were to interfere with Lord Kitchener we would hear of it very sharply.
  SIR C. DILKE: Perhaps the War Office knows what is needed in regard to the supply of horses, but dares not ask for it for fear of the House of Commons.
  MR. HALDANE: My right hon. friend might as well argue that because it was
  1386
  necessary to keep up the establishment in India to nearly war strength we should keep every battalion at home up to war strength. There is all the difference in the world between the two cases; and I think my right hon. friend has, for once, made a mistake. The explanation of the economics, broadly speaking, is that we propose to reduce the establishment to the actual strength. I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said in regard to the Auxiliary Forces. It is not a question of names. We wish to make real changes. We think the condition of the Auxiliary Forces is deplorable, and we cannot remedy that state of matters without making changes which go far beyond mere names. It is because we think these changes are absolutely necessary that I have made this appeal to the House.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONrose to move the following Amendment:—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, a Committee should be appointed to consider land report upon how far the work of Arsenals and similar Government establishments can be kept more regular, so as to keep the machinery more fully employed and prevent frequent discharges of workmen."
  He said that they on the Labour Benches thought that after the very comprehensive statement of the Secreary of State for War they would be all the better if they had more time to consider the policy which the right hon. Gentleman had so ably outlined. In his Amendment they asked for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the whole situation as to the facts at the Arsenals and other Government establishments in so far as the employment of labour was concerned, and, secondly in so far as the discharge of labour brought to a standstill the expensive machinery which the State had there set up. In regard to Woolwich, he found that whereas in the year 1901–2 the total hands were 26,052, that number had been actually reduced until there was something like 10,000 less workmen employed in the Arsenal to-day. That was a very serious matter. It was a serious thing for a town like Woolwich in the first place, and he thought it was also a serious matter from the point of view of the Government. They all knew that

  1387
  the conditions of employment in Government establishments as a rule attracted the best type of workman. It was well that it should be so, because in case of an acute emergency, when the Government was called upon to act suddenly, it was desirable that when there was an abnormal demand they should feel that they could rely upon their workmen, not only from the point of view of efficiency, but from the point of view of character. He ventured to say that the policy of irregularity of employment in our great Government Departments would not have a tendency to attract the best type of people to the Government employment. The consequence would be if a less capable class of workman were drafted into the Government establishments, a greater amount of risk would be incurred by the Government in case of grave emergency. Not only had they to complain about the exceedingly numerous discharges of workmen, but there was another matter to which he might call attention. He and a few of his colleagues visited Woolwich and he personally had also visited other large establishments such as the dockyard at Devonport. What was to be found at those establishments? There were tens of thousands of tons of most valuable and up-to-date machinery standing absolutely idle. What did that involve? It must involve to some extent the loss of National money, because as years went by machinery had a tendency to become obsolete. A good deal of our machinery was scrap-heaped, and nothing like what it cost the Government was gained out of it. It was absolutely essential that we should get the best turnover possible in regard to all our Government machinery, and we could not have that if we had idle machinery capable of employing ten thousand men. He held that by keeping this machinery idle a loss was entailed upon the National Exchequer and upon the public as a whole. The Amendment which he proposed was in order to prevent the irregularity of employment and the loss involved by machinery standing still and becoming obsolete. A Committee should be appointed to consider the whole matter. He might be told that much of the machinery at a Department like the Arsenal at Woolwich could not be
  1388
  adapted for the purposes of other Departments; that was to say, that if we wanted to make motors or bicycles for the Army they might be told that the machinery was not adapted to such work. As a practical man, who for the best part of his life had been engaged in similar occupations, he would contest that opinion, and hold that the greater portion of the machinery except that which was absolutely specialised could be easily adapted for work in other forms of employment. In the foundry department, with which he was well acquainted, there could be this adaptation for making a greater part of the castings which were now purchased from contractors. He therefore said that, although that objection might apply to one or two departments, it did not hold good as a whole. But supposing that it did, and the case was made good against him, surely it would restore the confidence of the public and allay the feeling of uneasiness which was prevalent in Woolwich, Portsmouth, Chatham, and Devonport if a Committee were appointed to inquire into the whole business and bring up a report to this House. If the Report went against them they would be able to go to those whom they represented and tell them that they had been proved to be wrong.
  MR. CROOKSseconded the Amendment. He said there were many sides to this question. Here was a town with 142,000 inhabitants which, practically speaking, had only one employer, and to throw upon the labour market 10,000 men was a very serious business indeed. There were very few other businesses to which these people could turn. Many of them had settled down at Woolwich and had bought their houses for the purpose of living and rearing their children in that place. The proposed Committee might find out that these people could be transferred from one department to another without injury to the public service and without extra expense. It seemed to him that Government Departments were too much like little worlds in themselves. They were so independent of each other, and this Committee might find out some way of transferring men from one Department to another. As his hon. friend had

  1389
  pointed out, these people were highly skilled men, who if they were dismissed were hardly likely to come back when they were required in an emergency. He wished to suggest also that while the Government were considering the desirability of fixing the minimum number of men who should be employed, they ought also to fix the proportion of work which they were going to give them. He did not wish to belittle the difficulty of dividing the amount of work between the Government establishments and contractors, but as a business man he held they ought to keep their own machinery employed before they gave out work to outsiders. He thought that on consideration the Government would find that the proportion of one-third to two-thirds should be altered. All that the Labour Members desired was that these questions should be considered by a Committee from a practical standpoint, and then that they should be considered by this House from a practical point of view.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, 'in the opinion of this House, a Committee should be appointed to consider and report upon how far the work of Arsenals and similar Government establishments can be kept more regular, so as to keep the machinery more fully employed and prevent frequent discharges of workmen.' "—(Mr. Arthur Henderson.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. WALTERSsaid he did not wish to detain the House, but he thought they should realise that there were two sides to this question. The hon. Members who had moved and seconded he Amendment, had very fairly and temperately put the case of the workmen in the Government Arsenals, and he desired now to draw attention to the fact that there were a large number of private firms in this country which were chiefly maintained by Government contracts. These businesses had been established not merely with the good word of the Government, but had in many cases been extended on the definite statement of the Government that additional work would be given to them. These establishments were well equipped, and had highly skilled workmen trained to the
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  work. When these men were not employed through the absence of Government work they were just as much out of work and in precisely the same sense as arsenal workmen, and it was quite as pathetic to see these men out of work at Brightside as to see similar men out of work at Woolwich. He therefore asked, if this Committee was appointed, that some consideration should be given to this aspect of the question. With regard to the question of machinery and equipment, he pointed out that the machinery of the Government arsenals was for the purpose of extension. If the whole of that machinery was employed to the extent of its capacity in time of peace, there could be no extension in time of war. And no Government could expect a private contractor to keep a large amount of machinery available for an extra demand which might take place on the outbreak of a war. The private contractor was kept for two purposes; first for the skill, invention, and initiation that was found in private firms; and, secondly, to enable the Government to extend their facilities in time of war. If the establishment of these private yards was reduced, if the Government did not give them work now, they would cease to be efficient; and it would be a disastrous policy to deprive the country of the facilities of the private yards when, in the stress of war, there would be no power of extension in the Government yards. The most modern armaments of war were invented and manufactured in private yards, and he contended that by diminishing the engineering enterprise and invention of private yards, the Government would be, not only handicapping themselves in invention, but in expansion if that hideous thing, a state of war, arose. When this matter was regarded as a labour question there was another aspect entirely. These men employed in private yards did a considerable amount of work for foreign Governments. It was only possible to carry on that work because the British Government gave out its work to private yards, and so enabled them to have a staff and equipment in order to obtain large contracts from other Governments. Therefore, if the Government shut down the private yards they would rob the workmen of this other work which they would not then be able to obtain.
  MR. HALDANE: The observations of my hon. friend illustrate, once more, the complexity of this trouble. These private yards are part of our national requirements. We must keep them up, and if we keep them up we must reward them. We reward them by giving them two-thirds of the orders we place. That is a policy to which we must adhere. If we fix an establishment we must fix a very low establishment, because otherwise there will be no orders to give out. I am quite aware of the difficulties, and feel very greatly the hardships which have been caused by no fault of their own, to the men at Woolwich, and if without interfering with our obligations to the private yards we can help these men we shall be very glad to do so. I am very doubtful whether the hon. Member's proposal would come to much. We may be able ourselves to do things at Woolwich that are connected with munitions of war. I have an open mind on the subject, but if any investigation takes place the report must be to myself as the guardian of the public purse. I cannot, however, try to establish a national workshop. The fall which has taken place in the number of persons employed is due to the change from a time of war to a time of peace. In the year 1894–5,11,510 man were employed at Woolwich; then it went up to 11,912, and to 20,511 in the war time, and the number is down now to 11,345. I hope that we have nearly touched the bottom. The Government has under consideration the question of establishment, and whether there are any other things they can manufacture. I am rather sceptical about the matter; but on the condition that the report is made to me, as responsible to the House, I am content and anxious to have such an investigation as will satisfy hon. Members opposite. I, therefore, suggest that if they will propose the names of three experts I will propose three others, and they together can go through the establishment at Woolwich and satisfy themselves whether there are other things that can be made there consistent with the obligations to private factories and the keeping up of the reserves for war, which cannot be let down. It may be that some things may be done at Woolwich, and if that be so, I shall assist it by every means in my power.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Will Sheffield be represented upon this Committee?
  MR. HALDANE: I think Sheffield is too suspicious, but I should have no objections to having my hon. and gallant friend himself on that Committee.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Thank you.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid there were many articles used by the Government that might be manufactured at Woolwich in time of peace. Such employment would retain the workmen on the establishment, and the Government would be enabled to expand in time of emergency. In many ways such a policy would be beneficial to the Government. What he wished to know was whether the inquiry of the Committee was to be confined to articles of war only, or as to whether other articles than those for war might be made at Woolwich.
  MR. HALDANE: I am very dubious about the Arsenal being a universal purveyor. It will be found that a great many things connected with war are not of a very war-like character, such as carriages and so on, and I think there will be a very large scope for this inquiry.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON,having regard to the very satisfactory answer of the right hon. Gentleman, asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1907–8.
  Committee report progress; to sit again To-morrow.
  And, it being half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at three minutes before Twelve o'clock.

Preamble
The Viscount Templetown took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—Borax Consolidated [H.L.]; Colne Valley Water [H.L.]; Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways [H.L.]; Manchester Ship Canal (Bridgewater Canal) [H.L.]; Manchester Ship Canal (Various Powers); [H.L.]; Metropolitan Railway (Pension Fund) [H.L.]; North British Railway [H.L.]; Ocean Accident and Guarantee Corporation [H.L.]; Oxford and District Tramways [H.L.]; Portishead District Water [H.L.]; Royal Insurance Company [H.L.]; Staveley Coal and Iron Company [H.L.]; West Yorkshire Tramways [H.L.]; Medway Lower Navigation [H.L.]; Newquay and District Water [H.L.]; Southend Water [H.L.]; West Riding Tramways [H.L.]; Wisbech Water [H.L.].
Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:—Baines' Name—(Petition for Bill).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Galwey's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. A witness ordered to attend on the Second Reading of the Bill.
Midland Railway (West Riding Lines) Abandonment Bill [H.L.]. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill. Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
Ashton-under-Lyne, Stalybridge, and Dukinfield (District) Waterworks Bill [H.L.]; Birkenhead Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]; Birmingham Corporation Bill
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[H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Birmingham Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed.
Broadstairs and St. Peter's Urban District Water Bill [H.L.]; Burnham (Somerset) Pier Bill [H.L.]; Coventry Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]; Devonport Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Harrison's Patent Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed.
Heywood and Middleton Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Humber Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Kensington Borough Council (Superannuation) Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed.
Manchester Corporation Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Merthyr Tydfil Stipendiary Justice Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a and committed.
Middlesbrough Corporation Bill [H.L.];Pontypridd Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
St. Neot's Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed.
Selsey Water and Gas Bill [H.L.]. To be read 2a, To-morrow.
Society of Apothecaries of London Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed.
Southend-on-Sea Corporation Bill [H.L.];Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Tees Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a and committed.
Tees Valley Water (Consolidation) Bill [H.L.]; Tyne Improvement Bill [H.L.]; Tynemouth Corporation (Water) Bill [H.L.]; Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Sewerage Board Bill [H.L.]. Read 2aand committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
North British Railway Bill [H.L.]. Moved, that leave be given to present a petition of the promoters of the Buckhaven Dock Provisional Order praying to be heard by Counsel against the North British Railway Bill; agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  NAVY (ESTIMATES, 1906–1907).
  Programme of shipbuilding, repairs, maintenance, etc.; Statement showing the probable effect on the programme due to re-appropriation of cash provision, etc.
  ARMY.
  Memorandum on the Military Forces in the United Kingdom; approximate estimate of the cost of the proposed Territorial Force.

  MINES AND QUARRIES (INUNDATION OF WATER AT CARADOG VALE COLLIERY).
  Reports to the Secretary of State for the Home Department by Sir D. Brynmor-Jones, K.C., M.P., and F. A. Gray, one of His Majesty's Inspectors of Mines, on the circumstances attending the inundation of water which occurred at Caradog Vale Colliery on 26th June, 1906.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Draft Order in Council amending the Order of 7th August, 1900, providing for the establishment of a consultative committee.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Time Table of Examinations for the year 1907.
  POST OFFICE (STATUTORY RULES AND ORDERS, 1907).
  No. 65. (Money Orders.) The Postal Order (Foreign and Colonial) Amendment (No. 2) Regulations, 1907, dated 30th January, 1907.
  BUILDING SOCIETIES.
  Twelfth Annual Report of the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies of the Proceedings of the Registrars under the Building Societies Acts; with abstract of the annual accounts and statements of societies, for the year 1906.
  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES, WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION SCHEMES, INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES, AND TRADE UNIONS.
  Reports of the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies, for the year ended 31st December, 1906.
  DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
  Account of receipts and disbursements of the Duchy of Lancaster in the year ended 21st December, 1906, also a separate account of the capital of the said Duchy to the same date.

  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  Report by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons, under Section 2 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899:—
  That, having regard to Section 16 (2) of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899. the provisions of the Electric Supply Corporation Order; Part II. of the Aberdeen Corporation Order; and Clause 65 of the Dundee Corporation Order, ought not to be dealt with by Provisional Order under that Act.
  That the provisions of the General Accident, Fire and Life Assurance Corporation, Limited, Order; the Royal Bank of Scotland Order; and Clause 34 of the Leith Harbour and Docks Order, are of such a character that they ought to be dealt with by Private Bill and not by Provisional Order.
  That, the Buckhaven Dock Order; the Glasgow Corporation Order; and

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  the Renfrewshire Upper District (Eastwood and Mearns) Water Order, raise such questions of policy and principle that they ought to be dealt with by Private Bill and not by Provisional Order.
  That, save as aforesaid, the Draft Provisional Orders be allowed to proceed, subject to such recommendations as we may hereafter make with respect to the several Orders.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BANK OF ENGLAND.
  Applications made by the First Lord of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England for advances to Government authorised by Parliament from 5th January, 1906, to 5th January, 1907, with Minutes of the Court of Directors thereon, and answers of the said Court thereto; delivered (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
NEW BILL.

  JUDICATURE BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law with respect to the Court of Appeal—Was presented by the Lord Chancellor. Read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 5.)
  House adjourned at half-past Four o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.