Sitting of 16 April 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILL [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not

  733
  been complied with, viz.:—Electric Supply Corporation Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.:—Land Drainage Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill; land Drainage Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
  South Wales Mineral Railway Bill, as amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  London County Council (Money) Bill, "to regulate the expenditure of money by the London County Council on capital account during the current financial period and the raising of money to meet such expenditure; and for other purposes," presented, and read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
  Watford and Edgware Railway Bill, Order [8th April] that the Petition for Additional Provision in the case of the Watford and Edgware Railway Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills read, and discharged. Petition for additional Provision withdrawn.—(Mr. Caldwell.)

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the working of mines and minerals under and adjacent to the portion of the Bridgewater Canal extending from Monton Bridge, in the county of Lancaster, to Leigh, in the same county; and for other purposes." [Manchester Ship Canal (Bridgewater Canal) Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the Humber Conservancy Com-
  734
  missioners and the Humber Pilotage Commissioners and to incorporate the Humber Conservancy Board; and to confer upon that Board the powers of the Humber Conservancy Commissioners and of the Humber Pilotage Commissioners, certain powers of the Hull Trinity House, the power to levydues, and other powers; and for other purposes." [Humber Conservancy Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for an increase of the share capital of Borax Consolidated, Limited, and for the conversion of the ordinary shares of the company into preferred ordinary shares and deferred ordinary shares; and for other purposes." [Borax Consolidated Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the time for the completion of the authorised pier and works of the Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Company; and for other purposes." [Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to rearrange and increase the capital of, and to alter and extend the Memorandum of Association, and the objects and powers of the Staveley Coal and Iron Company, Limited; and for other purposes." [Staveley Coal and Iron Company Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to vary the style or qualification of Licentiates of the Society of Apothecaries of London; and for other purposes." [Society of Apothecaries of London Bill [Lords.]
  And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Lord Mayor, Alderman, and Citizens of the City of Manchester with reference to the constructions of Tramways and street widenings; and for other purposes." [Manchester Corporation Tramways Bill. [Lords.]
  Manchester Ship Canal (Bridgewater Canal) Bill [Lords]; Humber Conservancy Bill [Lords]; Borax Consolidated Bill [Lords]; Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [Lords]; Staveley Coal and Iron Company Bill [Lords]; Society of

  735
  Apothecaries of London Bill [Lords]; Manchester Corporation Tramways [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS
  COAL MINES (EIGHT HOURS) BILL.
  Petitions in favour; From Granville; Resolven; and, Westleigh Colleries; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  GROCERS' LICENCES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions against; From Aberdeen (two); Arbroath; Buteshire; Hawick; Midlothian; Moray and Nairn; and, Orkney; To lie upon the Table.
  INFANT LIFE PROTECTION BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LIMITED PARTNERSHIPS BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC LOCAL OPTION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions against: From Aberdeen (two); Dalkeith; Dundee; Hawick; and, Perth; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC (LOCAL OPTION) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour; From Aberdeen; Arbroath; Baltasound; Banff (two); Bonnyrigg; Bothwell; Buckhaven; Cold-stream; Cranstonhill; Edinburgh (thirteen); Galashiels; Glasgow (three); Grand Lodge of Scotland of the International Order of Good Templars; Greenock; Inverness (two); Inverurie; Johnshaven; Kilbarchan; Laurencekirk; Longhope; Macduff; Morningside (two); Neilston; Park and Polworth; Rothesay; Saltcoats; Selkirk; Stevenston; and, Troon; to lie upon the Table.
  PAUPER LUNATICS (COST OF MAINTENANCE).
  Petition from Castle Ward, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY.
  Petition from Stockingford, for prohibition; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  NAVAL AND MARINE PAY AND PENSIONS ACT, 1865.
  Copy presented, of Order in Council of the 26th March, 1907, approving a Memorial of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty in regard to the pay of men of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who have qualified in Signalling or Wireless Telegraphy [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  ARMY (COMMISSIONS)
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 27th March; Mr. Pirie]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No 111.]
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  Copy presented, of Return of Advances made under the Irish Land Act, 1903, during the period from 1st November 1903 to 31st December 1905, Vol. 1, Part 1. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  IMPERIAL REVENUE (COLLECTION AND EXPENDITURE) (GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND).
  Return ordered, "relating to Imperial Revenue (Collection and Expenditure) (Great Britain and Ireland) for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1907 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 256, of Session 1906)."—(Mr. J. A. Pease.)

  CLYDE PORTS (VESSELS ENTERING, ETC.)
  Return ordered, "of the Vessels which entered and cleared the Clyde Ports, Ardrossan, Ayr, Belfast, Liverpool, and Manchester, for the Ports of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Norway, and all

  737
  Ports of the Baltic East of the Skaw during the year 1906, both Vessels trad-

  Vessels trading direct

  Ports.

  Ships entering from the Ports of

  Ships clearing to the Ports of

  Germany.

  Holland.

  Norway.

  The Baltic.

  Denmark.

  Total.

  Germany.

  Holland.

  Norway.

  The Baltic.

  Denmark.

  Total.

  Glasgow (Clyde Ports)

  …

  Ardrossan

  …

  …

  Ayr

  …

  …

  …

  Belfast

  …

  …

  …

  Liverpool

  …

  …

  Manchester

  …

  …

  Vessels Trading viâs United Kingdom Ports.

  Ports.

  Ships entering from the Ports of

  Ships clearing to the Ports of

  Germany.

  Holland.

  Norway.

  The Baltic.

  Denmark.

  Total.

  Viâ.

  Germany.

  Holland.

  Norway.

  The Baltic.

  Denmark.

  Total.

  Viâ.

  Glasgow (Clyde Ports)

  Ardrossan

  …

  …

  Ayr

  …

  …

  …

  Belfast

  …

  …

  …

  Liverpool

  …

  …

  Manchester

  …

  …

  —(Mr. Ainsworth.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Population of Ireland and Scotland.
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether, having regard to the fact that the population of Ireland has decreased from 8,175,124 in 1841 to 4,387,887 on 30th
  ing direct and Vessels trading viâ United Kingdom Ports, in the following form:—
  June, 1906, he can state, for the purposes of comparison, the population of Scotland in 1841 and the estimated population in 1906.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The population of Scotland, as at the Census of 1841, was 2,620,184, and at the middle of the year (30th June) 1906 was estimated at 4,726,070.

  Pay and Position of Plumbers in the Navy.
  MR. BRAMSDON: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether their Lordships have under consideration the question of the pay and position of the plumbers and plumbers' mates of the Royal Navy; whether he is aware that, as mechanics, their trade is the lowest paid in the Navy; that no increase of pay has been given since the rating of plumber was introduced into His Majesty's service over forty years ago, whilst all other branches have obtained concessions, in some way or other, as regards pay and obtained the rating of chief petty officer; that, by being unable to attain that rating, they are unable to obtain an increase of pay whilst serving and are also debarred from receiving an extra halfpenny per day for that rating on being pensioned; and that they are not in receipt of the 2d. per day granted to some ratings for re-engaging and no progressive pay of any description is granted.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The question of the pay and position of plumbers has been considered in the past, and no reason is seen for its reconsideration at the present time. The rating is among the lowest paid of the artisan class as the work requires less skill than that of the more highly paid classes. The rating was established in 1860, with pay at the rate of 2s. 3d. a day (continuous service); this rate was increased to 2s. 5d. in 1864, and again to 3s. in 1867. It may be mentioned that some of the concessions to other classes have been in the direction of equalising their pay with that of plumbers. There are other ratings who do not rise to chief petty officers, e.g., blacksmiths, coopers, painters. As plumbers do not serve as chief petty officers they are ineligible for the addition to pension which is granted only for service as such. Re-engagement pay of 2d. a day is only given to seamen ratings. Plumbers' mates, being second class petty officers, receive an increase of pay on advancement to the rating of plumber (first class petty officer). They are also eligible for additional pay according to the number of good conduct badges earned.

  Comptroller and Auditor General—Pensions and Honours.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will state how many Comptroller and Auditor Generals retired on pension during the last thirty years; how many of these received the honour of knighthood whist actively serving and on retirement on pension respectively and how many retired on pension without receiving this honour.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Board of Treasury have no information on the points referred to in the hon. Member's Question.

  Promotion to Second Division Clerks of Abstractors (Assistant Clerks).
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether abstractors (assistant clerks) who show the necessary qualifications for promotion to the Second Division are entitled to such promotion, according to the regulations under which they enter, after six years' service, including service as boy clerks up to two years; and what is the total length of service, including service as boy clerks up to two years, of each of the six senior abstractors in the Exchequer and Audit Department.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) Under Clause 15 of the Order in Council of the 29th November, 1898, an assistant clerk who has had not less than six years established service may receive, on the recommendation of the head of his department and with the approval of the Treasury, appointment to the Second Division. But the Order directs that such appointments are only to be made upon grounds of merit and in exceptional cases. By a later Order not less than one nor more than two years service as boy clerk may be reckoned. I am informed that none of the six abstractors referred to has had more than four years and four months service.

  Government Audit of Irish Public Accounts.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will state the names of the public accounts in Ireland

  741
  to which a partial local audit is given in Ireland each year by the Exchequer and Audit Department, the number of officials employed on each account in this local test, and the number of weeks in each year during which each of these officials is so employed.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I am informed that the following accounts are subject to a partial local audit in Ireland each year:—Army, Irish Command; Public Works (including Local Loans); Ordnance Survey; Board of Trade; Department of Agriculture; Chief Secretary for Ireland; County Court Officers; Irish Land Commission; Irish Church Temporalities; Congested Districts Board; Reformatory and Industrial Schools; Public Education; Post Office. The time occupied by the examination varies considerably in each case, and the Comptroller and Auditor General is not prepared to furnish details. In the aggregate twenty officers are occupied on the work in Ireland for seven weeks, which represents the services of three officers throughout the year. In addition a partial audit is given at longer intervals to the following accounts:—Navy. Haulbowline Dockyard. Army. Store Accounts. Prisons. Dundrum Asylum. Customs. Inland Revenue. Telegraphs.

  Saturday Half-Holiday in Irish Government Offices.
  MK. J. MACVEAGH: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that in a number of public departments (including the Post Office, Inland Revenue Office, Custom House, Admiralty, India Office, and Board of Education) a half-holiday is granted each Saturday to the members of the clerical staffs, and that in a few public departments this privilege is limited to alternate Saturdays; and will he say whether it is within the discretion of the heads of these latter departments to grant a weekly Saturday half-holiday, provided that the state of public business permits.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The hon. Member will find that my predecessor answered a similar Question by the hon. Member for Mid Cork on the 16th May last. I have nothing to add to that reply.

  Promotion of Assistant Clerks.
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, under the system of promoting assistant clerks to Second Division clerkships, as at present administered, it is possible for an assistant clerk who is eligible for this promotion in respect of service, and qualified in the opinion of the head of his department for the higher appointment, to be kept in the assistant clerks' class for an indefinite period, whereas meanwhile assistant clerks in other offices, which are better staffed or in which vacancies occur more frequently, will receive promotion; and whether he will consider some scheme by which combined service and merit will ensure promotion as allowed by the Order in Council, and by which meritorious assistant clerks may not be debarred from promotion by the non-occurrence of casual vacancies in departments to which they are assigned.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) Civil servants must naturally look for promotion principally in the departments to which they are assigned, and the chances of promotion necessarily vary in the several departments. Before the Treasury could entertain a proposal to promote an assistant clerk in one department, on the ground of special merit, to the Second Division, with a view to his assignment to another department, it would be necessary that the heads of the two departments should concur in an application to the Treasury to this end; and until such a case arises I do not think that the Treasury can usefully consider the question.
  MR. HUNT: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury with reference to the fact that sixty-six new class assistant clerks have been promoted to the Second Division, if he will state the offices in which these promotions have been made, and the respective numbers of such promotions in each office.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I learn from the Civil Service Commissioners that the total number of promotions of assistant clerks (abstractors) of the new

  743
  class to the Second Division up to the 11th March, 1906, has been as follows:—

  Department.

  Number of Promotions.

  Admiralty

  5

  Agriculture and Fisheries, Board of

  2

  Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, Department of

  3

  Home Office

  2

  Inland Revenue

  20

  Irish Land Commission

  1

  Local Government Board (England)

  2

  Local Government Board (Ireland)

  2

  Post Office

  21

  Public Works Loan Board

  1

  Scotch Education Department

  1

  Stationery Office

  1

  War Office

  5

  Total

  66

  Irish Tax Revenue.
  MR. BARRIE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what proportion of the total tax revenue collected in Ireland during the years 1890, 1895, 1900, and 1905 respectively was contributed by each province.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The materials for a reply to this Question are not available.

  Position of Thornley Sub-Postman and Sunderland-Boldon Rural Postman.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: To ask the Postmaster-General if he is yet in a position to report the result of his investigations as to the sub-office postman stationed at Thornley and the rural postman working between Sunderland and Boldon.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) (1) The duty of the postman at Thornley involves an attendance from 6.40 a.m. to 2 p.m., with intervals off duty amounting to two and a quarter hours, and another attendance from 7 p.m. to 8.45 p.m. His total actual attendance is, therefore, only six hours fifty minutes. Although the duty is not excessive, I find the man's attendance can, without detriment to the service, be slightly reduced by
  744
  extending one of his intervals off duty in the middle of the day, and I have given instructions accordingly. His attendance will thus be reduced to six hours twenty-five minutes. The postman, to suit his own convenience, is permitted to return to his home between 2 p.m. and 7 p.m., and to use his official cycle for the purpose, the journey occupying about half an hour in each direction. The man employed on the duty was temporarily appointed, at his own request, in February last at wages of 16s. a week. His appointment has now been made permanent, and he will receive wages commencing at 17s. a week. The additional allowance of 1s. a week, referred to by the hon. Member, was for cleaning the bicycle. It will be continued. (2) The official attendance of the Sunderland to Cleadon (near Boldon) rural postman is from 6 a.m. to 10.15 a.m., from 2 p m. to 3.45 p.m., and from 4.30 p.m. to 5.45 p.m., a total of seven and a quarter hours, of which about six hours ten minutes are occupied in actual travelling on a journey of twenty-three and a quarter miles, twelve driven and eleven and a quarter performed on foot. The postman has intervals off duty at Cleadon amounting to four and a half hours. I have given instructions for shelter to be provided for him at the expense of the Department. A revision of this post is under consideration with a view to the use of a cycle instead of a horse and cart. The change, if adopted, may involve the transfer of the present postman to another duty. The allowance made to the postman for horsekeep is intended to cover the cost of stabling at Cleadon as well as at Sunderland; but, if it is decided to maintain the mounted post, I will consider whether the allowance is adequate.

  Duty in Australia on Trade Catalogues.
  MR. L. HASLAM: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that duty is levied in Australia on trade catalogues posted separately in large quantities to that country from the United Kingdom, while no duty is levied in the United States on similar trade catalogues, he will consider the advisability of placing the matter before the Colonial Conference with the view of the discontinuance of the practice.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I understand that this question will be discussed with the Prime Minister of Australia.

  Currency of British Postal Orders in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.
  MR. L. HASLAM: To ask the Postmaster-General, in consideration of the fact that British postal orders are payable in many parts of the British Empire, while in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada such is not the case, whether he will consider the advisability of placing the matter before the Colonial Conference for consideration.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) British postal orders are payable in New Zealand, and Australia and Canada are now the only important parts of the British Empire which have not accepted the Imperial Postal Order scheme. I am in communication with the Postmasters-General of the Dominion and the Commonwealth, with a view to overcoming, if possible, the difficulties which have hitherto prevented the acceptance of the scheme in those parts of the Empire; but it is feared that there will be no time for the discussion of the question at the Colonial Conference.

  Applications for Loans by Local Authorities.
  MR. BRODIE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board what was the number of applications by local authorities for loans for public works pending on 31st March, 1907; what were the amounts involved; and what were the dates on which the applications were originally made, and by what authorities, and for what purpose were they made.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The particulars asked for are not immediately available, and could only be obtained after an examination of several hundred files of paper, which would involve much time and labour.

  Depression in the Building Trade—Municipal Works Pending.
  MR. BRODIE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether,
  746
  in view of the depressed state of the building trade, and the probability of its not being in a normal condition, although it is improving, by next winter, he will have a schedule drawn up stating all municipal works which are at present under consideration, and endeavour to arrange for some scheme by which a proportion may be started in the various districts of the country at regular intervals.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I appreciate the object which my hon. friend has in view, but I am afraid that it would not be practicable to arrange a scheme of the kind suggested in the Question. The time for starting particular works must, I think, be left entirely to the local authorities by whom they are undertaken. I believe, however, that there is a growing tendency on the part of the larger local authorities to afford as much continuous employment as possible; and, consistently with the economic and efficient carrying out of works, the Local Government Board would desire to encourage this.

  Use of Land Purchased under Loan by Municipal Authorities.
  MR. BRODIE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that it is the custom of the Local Government Board to forbid local authorities using land obtained by means of a public loan for any purpose other than that particular purpose for which it was originally bought, even when there is no covenant between the local authority and the seller of the land preventing its use by the authority for any purpose they desire; whether he is able, by administrative action, to free the hands of municipalities in this respect; whether he will take measures to do so; and whether, in the event of its not being possible to attain this object by administrative action, he will introduce legislation for the purpose at an early date.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The difficulty in this matter arises out of certain decisions of the High Court to the effect that, in the absence of statutory provisions to the contrary, land acquired

  747
  by a local authority cannot be used for any purpose other than that for which it was acquired. The difficulty cannot be removed by administrative action; but I should be glad to take advantage of any suitable opportunity of dealing with the matter by legislation.

  Boarded-out Poor Law Children.
  SIR GEORGE SCOTT ROBERTSON: To ask the President

  London.

  Outside London.

  Total.

  In district and separate schools

  7,194

  4,615

  11,809

  In cottage, scattered, and other homes

  4,584

  11,305

  15,889

  Navy—Casualties to Ships.
  MR. HUNT: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, with reference to the official statement furnished to the House of forty-one groundings of His Majesty's ships in 1905, whether these groundings include vessels not in the Navy List, seeing that they are not all mentioned in the Return, No. 319, of casualties to ships on the Navy List during 1905; and whether he is aware that Return No. 319 has already been shown to have omitted cases of vessels in collision.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The statement of groundings included only vessels shown in the Navy List. Cases in which a ship touches ground where no damage is done and no blame is attributable are not regarded as "casualties" for the purposes of the Return mentioned. My attention has already been called to several accidental omissions of an unimportant nature.

  Police in Scotland.
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he can state the total number of police in Scotland and the proportion per thousand of the population.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The total number of the authorised police force,
  of the Local Government Board if he will state the number of Poor Law children at present maintained in the district and separate schools and in the village communities of London and of the provinces respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The number of children in separate establishments of the guardians of Poor Law unions in England and Wales on the 1st January last was as follows:—
  excluding the Orkney and Shetland Islands and excluding additional police privately employed and paid, is 5,442. This affords approximately one policeman to 857 of the estimated population.

  Payments to Seamen under Allotment Notes.
  MR. L. HASLAM: To ask the President of the Board of Trade will he consider the advisability of issuing instructions that when a seaman has agreed to allot, by means of an allotment note, a portion of his wages in favour of a near relative or of a savings bank, and when the seaman has completed his voyage and the remaining portion of his wages is due, that an allotment shall be made in proportion to the amount of wages due for each completed week when, less than a month's wages are due.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Payments under allotment notes to seamen are regulated by the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Acts, † and especially by the Act of last session, ‡ and the Board of Trade have no power to issue instructions to the effect suggested by my honourable friend.
  † Section 141 of Merchant Shipping Act, 1894.
  ‡ Section 61 and Section 62, Merchant Shipping Act.

  Cost of New Asylum at Napsbury.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will state the cost per bed of the new asylum for Middlesex at Napsbury.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. I am in communication with the visiting committee with a view to obtaining complete and accurate information as to the cost of the Napsbury Asylum per bed; and when I have done so I shall be pleased to forward it to the hon. Member.

  Disposal of Site of Duke of York's School.
  MAJOR COATES: To ask the First Commissioner of Works when the Committee now considering the disposal of the site of the Duke of York's School at Chelsea was appointed, and of whom the Committee consists.
  (Answered by Mr. Harcourt.) The Committee, which was appointed in June, 1906, consists of:—Chairman, the Right Honourable R. K. Causton, M. P., Paymaster-General; Mr. F. D. Acland, M. P.; Major-General H. D. Hutchinson, C.S.I.,

  Counties.

  Deduction from Death Duty Grant.

  Deduction from Agricultural Grant.

  Total.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  Antrim

  950

  6

  1

  —

  950

  6

  1

  Armagh

  1,356

  12

  0

  —

  1,356

  12

  0

  Carlow

  1,518

  6

  11

  —

  1,518

  6

  11

  Cavan

  421

  11

  9

  —

  421

  11

  9

  Clare

  870

  11

  8

  —

  870

  11

  8

  Cork

  5,031

  17

  9

  —

  5,031

  17

  9

  Donegal

  738

  12

  8

  —

  738

  12

  8

  Down

  2,230

  12

  2

  —

  2,230

  12

  2

  Dublin

  1,574

  11

  7

  —

  1,574

  11

  7

  Fermanagh

  1,425

  18

  6

  —

  1,425

  18

  6

  Galway

  3,622

  13

  6

  —

  3,622

  13

  6

  Kerry

  838

  8

  3

  —

  838

  8

  3

  Kildare

  2,957

  8

  3

  5,507

  4

  6

  8,464

  12

  9

  Kilkenny

  4,693

  0

  5

  392

  5

  8

  5,085

  6

  1

  King's County

  1,582

  0

  8

  —

  1,582

  0

  8

  Leitrim

  552

  9

  6

  —

  552

  9

  6

  Limerick

  4,384

  13

  4

  —

  4,384

  13

  4

  Londonderry

  1,378

  9

  4

  —

  1,378

  9

  4

  Director of Staff Duties; the Honourable Sir Schomberg McDonnell, K.C.B., C.V.O., Secretary, Office of Works; Sir G. D. A. Fleetwood Wilson, K.C.B., Director of Army Finance; Secretary, Mr. B. M. Draper.

  Deduction from Probate Duty and Agricultural Grants in Ireland.
  MR. GINNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the amounts to be deducted this year from the Probate Duty and agricultural grants due to each county in Ireland, and the total to be deducted from the whole of Ireland, owing to embarrassment arising from improvident prices under the Land Act of 1903; if he is aware that the amount of these deductions must now be paid in rates locally; and, if the annuities are being punctually paid, will he explain how the deductions become necessary.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The following statement shows the sums deducted in respect of land purchase from grants payable to county councils in the month of March, 1907, as determined by certificates furnished by the Irish Land Commission and the Commissioners of National Debt:—

  Counties.

  Deduction from Death Duty Grant.

  Deduction from Agricultural Grant.

  Total.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  Longford

  1,428

  14

  11

  36

  7

  1

  1,465

  2

  0

  Louth

  398

  1

  l

  —

  398

  1

  1

  Mayo

  1,292

  16

  1

  —

  1,292

  16

  1

  Meath

  3,929

  15

  5

  —

  3,929

  15

  5

  Monaghan

  530

  18

  1

  —

  530

  18

  1

  Queen's County

  1,535

  11

  3

  —

  1,535

  11

  3

  Roscommon

  3,421

  13

  8

  1,384

  4

  2

  4,805

  17

  10

  Sligo

  1,506

  19

  7

  —

  1,506

  19

  7

  Tipperary, North Riding

  1,198

  2

  0

  —

  1,198

  2

  0

  Tipperary, South Riding

  2,961

  9

  1

  —

  2,961

  9

  1

  Tyrone

  2,279

  4

  11

  —

  2,279

  4

  11

  Waterford

  1,002

  16

  7

  —

  1,002

  16

  7

  Westmeath

  2,393

  9

  0

  —

  2,393

  9

  0

  Wexford

  2,773

  5

  5

  —

  2,773

  5

  5

  Wicklow

  2,896

  10

  11

  220

  18

  8

  3,117

  9

  7

  Total

  65,677

  12

  4

  7,541

  0

  1

  73,218

  12

  5

  As to the remainder of the Question I beg to refer to my Answer of yesterday to the Question of the hon. Member for North Kildare.†

  Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the total number of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the proportion per thousand of the population.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The total number of the Royal Irish Constabulary, including officers, on 31st March, 1907, was 9,946. The proportion per thousand of the population of Ireland, exclusive of the Dublin metropolitan district, according to the Census of 1901, is 2·44.

  Irish Elementary Education—Tests for Teachers.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if, in revising the system of elementary education in Ireland, he proposes to abolish tests for teachers and to establish public control.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) No proposals for the revision of the system of
  † See Col. 619.
  752
  elementary education in Ireland are at present before the House.

  Lavatory Accommodation at Kingston Barracks.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in the barracks at Kingston-on-Thames, eleven miles from Hyde Park Corner and twelve miles from the War Office, the barrack rooms are still unprovided with lavatory conveniences, and the men are forced to use urinal tubs which have to be removed by hand; and whether he will take steps to remedy this state of affairs.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that at the barracks at Kingston-upon-Thames, in order to reduce the expense of water, the water-closets used by the men are only allowed to be flushed twice a day; and whether, with a view to preventing the discouragement of recruiting and in the interests of health, he proposes to make any alterations in the existing system.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The drainage at Kingston Barracks is at present under reconstruction, and, as part

  753
  of that reconstruction, the whole of the latrines, urinals, etc., used by the troops will in future be in accordance with modern sanitation. Urine tubs for night use are retained as a temporary measure. The existing water-closets are flushed twice daily without any stint of water, but when the new system is in order will be flushed as used.

  Lodging Accommodation at Tidworth for Officers' Wives.
  MR. HERBERT: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, while provision is made at Home and Foreign stations for the wives of non-commissioned officers and men, no accommodation is provided for the wives of officers; whether, for example, at Salisbury Plain there is no accommodation for the wife of an officer within ten miles of the camp; and whether, with a view to the comfort of married officers and to retaining them in the Service, he will consider the advisability of building a proportion of small houses or bungalows which might be let to married officers at a reasonable rent.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) It is recognised that at Tidworth some of the officers who are entitled under the Regulations to lodging money have a difficulty in finding suitable accommodation in close proximity to the barracks, and a scheme is now being considered with a view to overcome this difficulty.

  Government's Licensing Proposals.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Prime Minister whether he is yet in a position to state when the licensing legislation referred to in His Majesty's Speech will be introduced; and if the contemplated Bill will deal with the licensing question in Ireland as well as in England, or if any separate measure of licensing reform to meet the needs of Ireland will be introduced by the Government during the present session.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) I am not in a position as yet to answer the first part of the hon. Member's Question. Ireland will not be included in the Bill in question, nor is it intended to introduce a separate measure dealing with Irish licences during the present session

  Spurious Sports Bill.
  MR. LUTTRELL: To ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that on 5th April last a deer turned out of a cart to be hunted by the Berks and Bucks Stag-hounds fell exhausted after a long run, and was so severely bitten by the hounds that it had to be destroyed; that on 7th April a deer being hunted by the same pack, on attempting to leap a spiked iron fence at Reading, was impaled upon the spikes, and having hung in this position for about half-an-hour was lifted down in a disembowelled condition and then destroyed; and whether, in view of these incidents and of public opinion, he will give facilities for the passing of the Spurious Sports Bill.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) I have no information as to the painful incidents mentioned by my hon. friend, and I cannot at present add anything to the Answer which I gave to a Question of my hon. friend the Member for Peterborough on 14th March, †

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Obsolete War Ships.
  MR. JENKINS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what it cost to build the first-class battleship "Sans Pareil," the third-class battleship "Conqueror," and the third-class armoured cruiser "Undaunted;" whether the above-named vessels only realised the sum of £57,500 by public auction at Chatham Dockyard on 9th April; and whether he can inform the House as to the weight of iron, steel, brass, and copper of the three vessels, and also the price which would have been obtainable in the market for such as old scrap.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): The total cost of the three vessels named was £1,454,093, excluding guns. The amount realised at the sale on the 9th April was £57,800. The weights of the iron, steel, brass and copper cannot be given with any degree of accuracy, and the scrap value depends entirely upon the state of the metal market at the time of sale. † See (4) Debates, clxxi., 252–3.
  MR. JENKINS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole of the component parts of the ship are weighed when the ship is under construction?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: That may be so.
  MR. JENKINS: Is it not a fact that the total weight of the ship can be easily obtained from the Dockyard record after completion?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I am informed that the total weight cannot be given with approximation to accuracy.

  Progress of Ship Construction.
  MR. HUNT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what are the anticipated dates of completion of the three armoured vessels of the "Defence" class laid down in February, 1905; and whether the "Defence," laid down 22nd February, 1905, is yet launched.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The date for completion of "Minotaur" and "Shannon" is 31st March, 1908. The launch of the "Defence" is fixed for 27th April, 1907, and the date for completion is December, 1908.
  MR. BELLAIRS: Can the right hon. Gentleman point to any similar delay in the case of Germany?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I must ask for notice of that Question.
  MR. BELLAIRSasked if an earlier date was not fixed in the Cawdor Memorandum for the completion of the ships?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: That can be answered by reference to the Memorandum itself.

  Naval Strength.
  *MR. NUTTALL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the completion of the large and powerful fleet of nine battleships and the ten armoured cruisers in 1909, at an estimated cost of £29,000,000, will not place the Navy far beyond the three-Power standard which we already possess; and whether, in
  756
  view of the fact that neither France nor Germany had laid down a single ship of the "Dreadnought" type in 1906, the Government will consider the desirability of deferring the commencement of the three additional ships of that type and other ships proposed in this year's programme until next year.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: It would be premature to make any statement in regard to the shipbuilding programme until the discussion on Vote 8.

  Cavalry and Guards Probationers.
  *CAPTAIN FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what proportion of the probationers in the cavalry and Guards who lately went up for their examination passed; and whether probationers are likely to continue.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (MR. HALDANE,): No cavalry probationers have yet been examined; the first examination will be in December next. Twenty-one Guards (including household cavalry) probationers were examined in December, 1906, and fourteen passed. The probationary scheme is only a temporary measure and will be discontinued as soon as the exigencies of the service permit.
  CAPTAIN FABER: Would it not be a good thing if the colonel commanding were given the right to say whether probationers should have a Commission?
  MR. HALDANE: I think the present system much better.
  VISCOUNT TURNOUR: Then why change it?
  MR. HALDANEwas understood to reply that he only proposed to change the probationary system.

  Army Economies.
  MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the expected economies in the cost of the Army are produced solely by the reduction of personnel; and, if not, whether they are produced in part by reduction of war stores and ammunition.
  MR. HALDANE: Reductions of men admit of reduction in practice ammunition and some kinds of stores. The completion of the re-armament of the Horse and Field Artillery produces a material saving in 1907–8 as compared with 1908–7; and there are other cases in which the completion of requirements leads to reduced expenditure. The hon. Member may rest assured that the economies to which he refers are not being effected by reducing anything which is necessary for the fighting efficiency of the Army.

  War Stores and Ammunition.
  MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the quantity of war stores and ammunition now in stock and immediately available is greater or less than the quantity stated by the Mowatt Committee to be the minimum consistent with national safety.
  MR. HALDANE: The reserves of war stores and ammunition in stock and available are in accordance with the recommendations of the Mowatt Committee.

  Woolwich Arsenal.
  MR. BARNES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether there are a number of workmen at present only partially employed at Woolwich, and therefore only earning but part of the amount of wages which they had been accustomed to earn when fully employed; and, if so, will he make provision so that they may leave the service without forfeiture of the bonus to which they would be entitled if discharged.
  MR. HALDANE: The reply to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part of the Question, men who are employed in shops where reductions will be necessary may apply to be discharged, and if, consistently with the public interest, such application can be granted, will be allowed to go and to receive such bonus as their service entitles them to.

  Comilla Riots.
  MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called
  758
  to the recent disturbances at Comilla, where a number of Mahomedans entered the bazaar crying that the Nawab of Dacca had ordered them to beat the Hindus and raze the shop of one Gogiram Pal to the ground, and, further, that in general Hindu shops were entered, the occupants assaulted, goods trampled on, and common robbery committed; and whether steps will be taken to institute a public inquiry with a view to recompense being made by the Nawab to the assaulted and robbed.
  I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the Hindus at Comilla have lodged complaints at the inaction of the police in the recent riots, in not preventing the looting of shops; and whether, seeing that rioting or disturbance between Mahomedans and Hindus was of rare occurrence prior to the partition of Bengal, steps will be taken to prevent incitement to disorder by the Nawab of Dacca and those responsible for propartition demonstrations.
  I beg further to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that serious charges have been made against the district magistrate and the district superintendent of police at Comilla, in that the former justified the recent disturbances as the result of seditious speeches made by speakers from Calcutta, and the latter, in that when informed whilst at his club that a golmal was in progress at the bazaar, did not consider the matter worth his special attention on the spot; and whether, seeing that subsequently the Commissioner telegraphed for reinforcements and 125 military police, and the assistant inspector-general left Dacca and Silchar to quell the disturbance, and in view of the fact that Hindus were beaten, goods destroyed, and robbery committed, he will give instructions for a public inquiry into the whole matter.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (MR. JOHN MORLEY,): Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to answer his three Questions on this subject together. The local Government have submitted a detailed report on the disturbances at Comilla, and have called for further reports and explanations on some points, pending the

  759
  receipt of which a final expression of opinion must be reserved. Meanwhile precautions have been taken against a recurrence of the disorders, and all complaints made by individuals are under investigation or settlement in the courts of law. I do not think any action on my part is necessary at present.
  MR. O'GRADY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the men has already suffered imprisonment?
  MR. JOHN MORLEY: Yes, Sir.

  Punjab Land Alienation Bill.
  MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the all-Punjab demonstration held at Lahore to protest against the Punjab Land Alienation Bill, now passed into law; whether, as a principal result of the Act, the powers of the collector as chief executive and revenue officer of the district have been largely extended, placing the summary jurisdiction of such officer above the reach of the civil court; whether he is aware that religious and charitable gifts and alienations come under the veto of such officer, who alone can determine the bona fides of such gifts; and whether, having regard to the effect the Act will have upon that class known as the zemindars, reducing their status to that of moneylender or usurer, steps will be taken to bring the matter before the attention of the Punjab Legislative Council with a view to mitigating grievances arising from the Act.
  MR. MORLEY: There appears to be some misconception in the matter. The Punjab Land Alienation Act, which placed restrictions on the alienation of land from the agricultural to the non-agricultural classes, and empowered the district revenue officers to veto transfers made in contravention of the law, has been in operation since 1900. It is reported to have worked satisfactorily, and to be popular with the agricultural classes. The Bill to which the hon. Member presumably refers is confined to amending the Act in certain particulars, and does not affect its main principles, though it will deprive the so-called "statutory agriculturist" of the power to purchase land from the agricultural classes. The "statutory agriculturist"
  760
  is, I understand, an artificial creation of the law, and may be, and often is, a person who does not belong to the agricultural classes. When the proceedings of the Legislative Council come before me, I will carefully consider the memorials which have reached me objecting to its provisions.

  British East Africa Police.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total number of the police force enrolled in the British East Africa Protectorate, excluding the additional force of twenty white men ordered to be raised on the 18th March; and what are the numbers respectively of white members, excluding the above-mentioned additional men, and native members of the force.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): According to the latest returns the police force of the East Africa Protectorate consists of thirty-five white officers, and about 2,000 native officers and men.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the regulations for the enrolment of natives in the police force of the British East Africa Protectorate; whether untrained and uneducated natives are now serving; whether such natives are the custodians of the public peace, with power to arrest white men and women; whether the Secretary of State is aware that the existing condition of the police force, in regard to the selection of the native members of that force, gives rise to apprehension and dissatisfaction amongst the white population; and whether he will take steps to secure that further and better regulations shall be enforced in that respect, in order to secure due protection of white men and white women in the territory.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Regulations to which the hon. Member refers will be found in the Police Ordinance of the Protectorate, a copy of which is in the Library of the House. The rank and file of the force consists partly of Indians and Swahilis who are employed in the more settled parts, and partly of natives who are chiefly employed at the outlying

  761
  stations. No doubt they are mostly uneducated, and, when they first join the force, untrained. The powers of the police to arrest persons are in general the same as these entrusted to the police of British India under Sections 54–67 of the Code of Criminal Procedure. Complaints as to the constitution of the police force have been received, but they have been of a general character and have not alleged specific misconduct. The Secretary of State considers that the establishment of a small white police force, which had been decided upon before the recent incident at Nairobi, will remove all reasonable grounds for complaint.
  *MR. CATHCART WASON: Have the Administration in East Africa any power to deport persons found guilty of such conduct as may endanger the peace of the country?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I cannot say precisely what powers of deportation are possessed by the Government of British East Africa.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: Have any steps been taken to investigate the complaints already received?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I am not aware whether any special steps have been taken. We are always receiving very full Reports, and during the last three months we have had the advantage of the presence in this country of the Commissioner of that district and have had the opportunity of discussing many matters with him at the Colonial Office.

  Population of East Africa Protectorate.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the present total population of the East Africa Protectorate, and of this population how many are white and how many are black or coloured; how many soldiers there are in the Protectorate; and how many of these are white men.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The native population of the East Africa Protectorate is roughly estimated at four millions; the white population according to the latest return numbered 1,813, including 264 Government officials. There are no white troops in the Protectorate except
  762
  the Volunteer Reserve numbering 160 The number of native troops serving there, i.e., the 3rd and part of the 1st Battalion of the King's African Rifles, is about 1,200 with thirty white officers.
  VISCOUNT TURNOUR: In view of the figures given in the Answer, will steps be taken to increase the white force? Will the hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of getting a larger grant for the purpose?
  MR. CHURCHILL: We are doing everything possible to reduce the expenditure.

  Macedonian Budget.
  MR. LYNCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Estimates for the financial year, March, 1907, to March, 1908, have yet been framed and submitted to the Financial Commission in Macedonia; if not, when are they expected; whether he can state the amount of the contemplated deficit, as well as the amounts entered for civil and military expenditure respectively; and whether it is proposed to include the expenditure in connection with the re-organisation and strengthening of the Third Army Corps in the amount to be charged to the Macedonian Budget in respect of military expenditure.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (SIR EDWARD GREY,): The Estimates for the Macedonian Budget for the current financial year have been submitted to the Sublime Porte by the Financial Commission. The estimated deficit is £789,290. The estimated expenditure for civil administration is £839,801, and for military expenditure £1,352,894. His Majesty's Government are not aware of the particular items of which the latter portion of the Budget is composed. The total increase in it is £8,203.

  Deaths by Violence in Macedonia
  MR. LYNCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the number of deaths due to violence which occurred in the three vilayets of Macedonia for the period from the 1st October, 1906, to the end of March,1907.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The particulars of violent deaths in Macedonia for the month of March have not yet been received. The total number of deaths from the 1st October till the end of February is 338. The majority of the cases were due to the operations of bands of rival nationalities, but the deaths in encounters between troops and bands are also included.

  Khartoum Lands and Schools.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the case of an official appropriation of land at Khartoum, the Governor, Stanton Bey, has informed the natives concerned that the price paid to them is simple backsheesh, given at the pleasure of the Government.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I have no information on the subject. If the hon. Member will supply me with particulars of what appropriation of land is referred to, I will inquire what the circumstances and conditions of the appropriation were.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the natives at Khartoum have requested the Government to establish schools for girls, and have been referred to the Protestant schools controlled by missionary organisations, where the children are taught solely on Christian lines.
  I beg further to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Soudan Government has appropriated for public purposes 1,800 feddans of land north of Khartoum, at the confluence of the Blue and White Niles, and has paid for it, not at the market rate, but at prices fixed by the officials at their pleasure; and whether at Khartoum North (Halfayah) the Government has forcibly appropriated land from native owners at £2 per feddan and has sold it for prices of £15 or more per feddan to the Model Farming Association.
  I also wish to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, since the conquest of the Soudan, the administration has confiscated the lands and property formerly, and in large part before the time of the Mahdi, owned by
  764
  the Wakf—, that is to say, the Moslem ecclesiastical organisation which received bequests and gifts from Moslems for religious or charitable purposes; and, if so, whether the property thus confiscated could not be devoted to purposes of education.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Answer to these Questions is that I have no information, but will make inquiry. With regard to female education, I have to refer the hon. Member to Chapter 42 of Lord Cromer's Report for 1906.

  Siamese Cessions to France.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the King of Siam has recently ceded to France the three fertile and populous provinces of Battengbang, Siem-Reap, and Sisophon; and, if so, what compensation Siam obtained, and if he can state what effect, if any, the transaction will have on British interests in the Far East.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I must ask the hon. Member to wait till the terms of the treaty are made public before I can answer questions about it.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Is it a fact there has been a treaty?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Yes, there has been a treaty between France and Siam, but I must wait for the parties concerned to make it public before I can say anything on it.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: But how about our interests in Siam?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I may refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Agreement of 1904, between the late Government and France, which clearly defined the interests of the two countries in Siam.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with this new treaty?
  [No Answer was returned].

  Hamburg Strike.
  MR. JAMES PARKER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for

  765
  Foreign Affairs whether, since the 4th April, any further destitute British subjects have applied to the British Consul at Hamburg for assistance; whether they have been told, as was the case about three weeks ago, to go to the harbour at Hamburg where there was plenty of work; and whether the Foreign Office is prepared to give instructions to British Consuls to cease recommending destitute British workmen to act the part of blacklegs in foreign ports.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I am not aware that since April 4th any further destitute British subjects have applied to the British Consulate General at Hamburg for assistance. His Majesty's Consular officers are only authorised to repatriate destitute British subjects at the public expense when no other means of relieving their destitution can be discovered. I may add that His Majesty's Consul General at Hamburg has been most careful not to interfere in any way in the present labour dispute in that city.

  Honduras Police.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, under the new Alien Law of the Republic of Honduras, British subjects who may be regarded by the laws of Honduras as domiciled there are liable to be called on to serve as armed police in the event of the invasion of Honduras by any hostile force; and whether His Majesty's Government have assented to this proposition.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Article 44 of the new Alien Law exempts foreigners from military service, but states that domiciled foreigners are obliged to serve as armed police, for the security of their property and the maintenance of order in the town where they are residing. The full text of the Law will be found in Parliamentary Paper, Miscellaneous, No. 1 of 1907. This is merely a measure for the preservation of domestic law and order, and in view of the exemption of foreigners from military service could not be applied to resist invasion by a hostile force.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: May I ask if British subjects can only
  766
  be employed in this way in the case of special trouble or riot?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I have given the actual words. There can be no doubt as to their meaning.

  Persia—The Tufangchari Tax.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the imposition in the Yezd district of the tax known as tufangchari is in accordance with the Anglo-Persian Convention of 9th February, 1903; and, if, not, whether any efforts, and what efforts, are being made to put a stop to its imposition.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I have no information as to the imposition of the special tax in question. But the levy of illegal taxes in the Yezd district in general has been the subject of representations to the Persian Government on the part of His Majesty's Legation at Tehran.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to ascertain if this tax is being imposed, and, if it is, make representations on the subject?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Representations have already been made in March last.

  Opium Production in China.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what steps have been taken by the Government of China to reduce the area of land now cultivated in China for the production of opium.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: By Article 1 of the Regulations issued under the Imperial Decree of September 20th, 1906, no new ground can be placed under poppy cultivation, and that already under poppy cultivation must be reduced by one-tenth at least every year. If the regulation is evaded, the ground can be confiscated. A fresh decree was issued on 7th February last, with the object of securing greater uniformity in carrying out the existing regulations, and it is understood that it will be followed by further regulations prescribing the conditions under which the gradual diminution of cultivation is to be effected. I

  767
  cannot yet say how far these decrees have been made effective.
  MR. LYNCH: Have the Government at their dispoaal any machinery for ascertaining what the Chinese Government are really doing?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Yes, Sir; there are consular reports on the subject.
  MR. LYNCH: I am informed that no opportunity is afforded of getting information.
  MR. LUPTON: Have the Indian Government made any corresponding regulations for the reduction of the growth of opium?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Government Paint Factories.
  MR. BRAMSDON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the factory and workshop regulations made by him on the 21st January last in respect of dangerous and unhealthy industries, which do not apply to factories and workshops in which paints and colours are manufactured, not for sale, but solely for use in the business of the occupier, apply to the Royal Dockyards; and, if not, whether he will explain why this is so, and arrange that all Government workshops shall be included, and the workmen so employed receive the benefit of these regulations which materially affect their lives and health.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): The regulations do not apply to the Royal Dockyards. Places in which the manufacture of paints is carried on only as ancillary to the main business of the factory were not included in the rules because the same danger to the workers is not found to exist in these places as in places where the manufacture is carried on for sale as the business of the factory. Nearly all the cases of plumbism reported from dockyards occur to men engaged in using the mixed paints, or in scraping off old paint in confined spaces such as the double bottom of ships, and to these processes the paint and colour regulations do not apply. Any danger, however,
  768
  that may be caused to the workers employed in the dockyards in the making of paints by the inhalation of poisonous dust can be dealt with adequately by ordinary administrative action under Section 74 of the Factory Act, and such action will be taken wherever necessary.

  Alcester Vaccination Case.
  MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that on the 19th day of March, 1907, A. H. Moore, of Alcester, Shaftesbury, applied for a vaccination exemption certificate at the Shaftesbury petty sessions, two magistrates only sitting, Mr. H. A. Dunstan, chairman, and Mr. L. Fox Pitt, and that Mr. Dunstan refused to sign the exemption certificate; and if he proposes to take any steps in the matter.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have communicated with the justices who adjudicated in this case. They inform me that the case was carefully considered, and that the applicant did not satisfy both of them that he had a conscientious belief that vaccination would be prejudicial to the child in question. As I have often stated before, I have no authority to interfere with the discretion of the magistrates in this matter.
  MR. LUPTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the new Vaccination Bill will be brought in?
  MR. GLADSTONE: That Question should be addressed to the President of the Local Government Board.
  MR. J. WARD: Is it necessary in the case of ordinary justices that two shall adjudicate where a stipendiary magistate sits alone?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, that is so.

  State Quarry Fatalities.
  MR. ELLIS DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that, according to the Report on Mines and Quarries for 1905, the fatalities among the inside workers in mines were 1·519 per 1000, whilst among inside workers in slate quarries it was no less than 2·39; and what steps, if any, have

  769
  been taken in face of the statement on Mines and Quarries (1905), page 95, that an unsatisfactory feature of Table 82 is the high death rate among the inside workers in slate quarries.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am aware of the figures to which the hon. Member calls my attention and which are those published in the animal statistics issued by my Department. The figures however for 1906, not yet issued, will show a very great decrease in the death rate for the Carnarvonshire slate quarries, only one fatal accident having occurred at those quarries during the year. The conditions existing at these quarries are receiving special attention from the inspectors, and I have called for a further Report from them on the subject.
  MR. WILLIAM JONES: In view of the great danger in the working of metalliferous mines, will evidence as to them be received before the Mines Commission?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I think it will be open to the Commission to take such evidence, but I am not sure.

  Crime in York.
  MR. MOONEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the fact that during the year 1905 there were 295 indictable crimes known to the police to have been committed in the county borough of York, and whether, in connection with these crimes, only 171 persons were apprehended; whether he can state if this class of crime is diminishing in this district; whether he can state the cause of the failure of the police to secure these of lenders; and whether he intends to take any stops to enable the police to bring to trial a larger percentage of the offenders.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The figures are correctly quoted, but the great majority of the so-called "crimes" are small larcenies disposed of summarily by the justices. There are many cases where the owner of the stolen property declines to prosecute, and many cases where several offences are committed by the same person; so that, if the police force is efficient and the returns are correctly
  770
  made, the number of persons prosecuted must always be considerably less than the number of offences committed. In York, the proportion is about the same as in England and Wales generally. There is no marked increase or decrease of crime in York.

  Agrarian Crime in Yorkshire.
  MR. MOONEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that during the year 1905 there were fifty-three cases of malicious injury to property, including twenty-three cases of arson and four cases of killing and maiming of cattle, known to the police in the county of Yorkshire; if he can state, when the figures for the year 1906 will be available, or if he can now state whether there is any diminution of this class of crime in this county.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The figures stated are substantially accurate. The figures for 1906 are not yet available, so I cannot say whether they show any diminution.
  MR. LANE-FOX: May I ask whether the proportion of crime to population in Yorkshire is not one which the Government would gladly see attained or even approached in the county represented by the hon. Member who put this Question?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: The proportion is much smaller.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the proportion of crime to population in Ireland is far less than in England?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, I believe that is so. But we are always glad to see a diminution.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: Is it not the fact that the Returns show that in Ireland for many crimes committed people are not brought to justice?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: And is it not the fact that much of the crime in Ireland is due to the circulation of bad whisky which some people here know about?
  MR. J. MACVEAGH: The fox run to earth !

  Death Certificates in the Shardlow Union.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the charge (3s. 7d.) made for death certificates by the relieving officer and collector of the Shardlow Union; and, if so, whether it is his intention to take any action, having for its object the fixing of a smaller charge for such certificates.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): One of the relieving officers of the Shardlow Union is also registrar of births and deaths, and it is in the latter capacity that he has issued certificates of death when required. I understand that in no case has he charged a higher fee than that authorised. The charges in connection with certificates of death are statutory, and I am not empowered to alter them.

  Poor Law—Removal of Aged Sick.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that evidence was given at the inquest, held at Poplar on 9th April, on a poor woman named Baker, aged eighty-one, who was ordered by the parish doctor to be removed to the sick asylum, to the effect that this removal was effected by two officers or servants of the guardians of the Stepney union who were both drunk; that the witness's daughter protested against the removal of her mother by men in such a condition; that the men dropped the old woman on the pavement; that when they arrived at the asylum the ambulance was kept twenty minutes before the sick woman could be taken out, as the driver of the ambulance could not find the key; will he say whether the medical officer or the relieving officer is responsible for the safe and proper removal of sick persons for indoor relief; and, if so, whether he will recommend to the Stepney guardians that when aged people in grave sickness are removed from their own homes the guardians should send a doctor or nurse to supervise the removal.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: The case to which my hon. friend refers is, I think, that of a woman named Lewis. I have
  772
  seen the depositions taken at the inquest in that case, which show that the facts are substantially as stated by him. I understand that the guardians have taken some action in this matter, but I am making further investigations with regard to it. As regards the point referred to in the last part of the Question, the clerk to the guardians informs me that in cases of removal to the infirmary or sick asylum, where no female friend or relative can accompany the patient the relieving officer and the medical officer are empowered to engage the services of a female attendant to be present at the removal. In this instance two daughters accompanied the patient.

  Lodgers' Letters.
  MR. BRAMSDON: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will explain why letters addressed to persons who are lodgers cannot be readdressed at the post office; and whether, having regard to the been that the privilege of readdressing letters at the post office has conferred on house-holders, he will consider whether he can extend the privilege to all classes.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): I have recently given very careful consideration to the point which the hon. Member raises, but I regret that I do not see my way to extending the scope of official redirection. The work of redirection is already a considerable hindrance to the ordinary work of the postmen; and if it were extended to lodgers' letters serious delay and inconvenience would be caused. There is not the same need for official redirection in the case of lodgers as in the case of householders. In any case in which good grounds are shown for requiring the assistance of the post office in the matter, official redirection is, as far as practicable, undertaken.

  Trains and Mail Carriage.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he can state the tramway undertakings in this country with which the Post Office Department have an arrangement as to the carrying of letters or postal employees; and, if so, the payments made in each case for such service.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Payments are made to tramway undertakings for the conveyance of mails or Post Office employees in a large number of cases. It would be impossible to give the detailed information for which the hon. Member asks within the limits of an Answer to a Question.

  Hawkhurst Postman's Grievance.
  MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether Rule 116 (iii.), contained in the book of rules for rural postmen and auxiliaries, is still in force; if so, why S. Smith, auxiliary town postman at Hawkhurst, Kent, has been deprived of his fixed Sunday allowance of 3s. 3d. during temporary absence from duty owing to an infectious disease; and, if the said rule has been altered or repealed, why the rural postal officials have not been informed of such alteration or repeal.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The rule is still in force, and Smith's wages were paid in full, but a distinction, which I think unsound, was made between wages and payment for Sunday duty. I have now directed payment to be made in full.

  New Zealand Mails.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if any progress has been made in re-arranging the San Francisco mail service to New Zealand; and if he can hold out any prospect of its being shortly re-established.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: So far as I am aware the situation remains unaltered. I am not in a position to express any opinion as to the prospects of the re-establishment of the service, which is entirely outside my control.

  Scottish Whaling Stations.
  MR. STARKEY: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland how many whaling stations or factories at present exist in Scotland; and how many of them are owned or occupied by foreigners.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,): There are five whaling stations in Scotland. Of these, four are owned by foreigners and one by a British firm.

  Constable O'Halloran, Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. BARRIE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Constable O'Halloran, who was disabled for life by a gunshot wound received on the night of 9th October last while affording police protection to Colonel Lopdell, near Athenry, was in receipt of pay of £53 a year, and that the pension to which he is entitled now on retiring from the Royal Irish Constabulary is only £24 a year; and seeing, that this constable was on the list for early promotion to the rank of sergeant, whether any, and, if so, what, additional pension will be paid to him by reason of his having been maimed in the discharge of his duty.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.): Constable O'Halloran was seriously injured by a gunshot on the occasion mentioned, and has since been under medical treatment. The question whether he is permanently incapacitated for service has not yet been determined. The constable's present pay is £67 per annum. His ordinary pension would amount to £24 a year, but if it should be certified that he is permanently incapacitated by reason of injuries received while on duty, there is power to award him a pension not exceeding his annual pay. Constable O'Halloran has lodged a claim against the county council for compensation in respect of the malicious injury inflicted upon him, and if he should be granted compensation the fact would be taken into account in fixing the amount of pension. The constable's case will receive full consideration.

  Loughrea Compensation Appeals at Galway Assizes.
  *CAPTAIN FABER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, at the late assizes at Galway, Lord Justice Holmes gave compensation for malicious injuries in the district of Loughrea to the amount of £67 19s. 6d. in seven cases; that all these cases were appealed against from quarter sessions by the county council; and that Lord Justice Holmes stated that the taking of these appeals was a scandalous waste of public money; and,

  775
  if so, win the matter be brought under the notice of the Local Government Board.
  MR. BIRRELL: At the recent Galway Assizes the Loughrea District Council appealed, in the exercise of their statutory right, against five awards of compensation for malicious injury. In one case the appeal was successful, and in the remaining four cases the award was confirmed with costs, the total amount of compensation in these cases being £53 and the costs £22. According to a newspaper report of the proceedings which has been brought to my notice, Lord Justice Holmes made a remark to the effect stated in the Question. The payments made by the council in these cases will come before the Local Government Board's auditor in due course.

  Intimidation in Roscommon.
  CAPTAIN FABER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at Roscommon quarter sessions in a case where a policeman was processed for the value of a drum which was damaged in a conflict with the police in an attempt to intimidate one B. O'Brien, the holder of a grass farm; is he aware that the judge stated that intimidation had taken place and dismissed the process, but afterwards reversed this decision and gave compensation for the drum; and will he say if there have been further attempts to intimidate graziers in Roscommon since this decision, and have any of the persons attacked surrendered their property.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Before that Question is answered, Mr. Speaker, I submit to you that this is canvassing or censuring the conduct of a judge. The Question alleges that the judge said that in consequence of intimidation that he would dismiss the process and that he afterwards reversed that decision, and the Question goes on to ask whether in consequence of that action of the judge attempts at intimidation had increased. Is that not canvassing and censuring the conduct of a judge?
  *MR. SPEAKER: If the implication were as the hon. Member suggests it would be clearly out of order, but it does not appear to me, with such knowledge of the
  776
  facts as the Question gives me that that implication must necessarily be made. The suggestion is that the judge changed his mind; I do not suppose that is any imputation upon him.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: The Question asks whether since that action of changing his mind the attempts have increased.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The words "since that decision," simply refer to a point of time.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if, as a matter of fact, this judge is not a Unionist gentleman appointed by the Unionist Government?
  CAPTAIN FABER: The last thing I should wish to do is to canvass the conduct of any judge in the United Kingdom.
  MR. BIRRELL: I am informed that in the case referred to, which was heard on 27th March, the County Court Judge gave a decree against a constable for damaging a drum. The constable, however, has lodged an appeal, and it would therefore be undesirable to enter into the details of the case. An intimidatory demonstration was attempted at Elphin on 31st March, the particulars of which are stated in my reply to the Question of the hon. Member for Mid Armagh on 10th April.† I am not aware of any other recent similar case in Roscommon. The police authorities have heard that some graziers in the district have announced their intention of surrendering their farms, but have no information that any surrender has actually taken place.

  Irish University Bill.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the proposals of His Majesty's Government for dealing with Irish university education are these outlined by Mr. Bryce in his speech of the 25th January last.
  MR. BIRRELL: The proposals of His Majesty's Government will proceed upon the lines indicated by Mr. Bryce,
  † See (4) Debates, clxxii., 288.

  777
  subject it may be, as indeed he intimated, to modifications if found necessary.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can now state when it is his intention to place before Parliament the proposals of His Majesty's Government with reference to Irish university education.
  MR. BIRRELL: I am not yet in a position to name a date.

  Drumsna Evicted Tenant.
  MR. THOMAS F. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement from Owen Scollan, Lismoyle, Drumsna, an evicted tenant on the Albemarle estate in county Leitrim; and if an inspector will investigate same.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received no application from the person named in the Question.

  Cattan Evicted Tenant.
  MR. THOMAS F. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners will have Francis McNally, an evicted tenant, reinstated in his farm at Cattan, on the White estate, in county Leitrim, as negotiations are going on at present for the sale of this estate; and, in the event of his not being permitted to sign the purchase agreement, if he will get compensation, so that he might be able to procure a farm elsewhere.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have considered McNally's application, but have not been able to arrange for his reinstatement. The farm from which he was evicted is held by another tenant. McNally's name has been noted as that of a person suitable to work land, and his claim will be considered by the Commissioners in the event of their having land to dispose of in the district.

  Corduff and Finnalaughta Evicted Tenants.
  MR. THOMAS F. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Com-
  778
  missioners will have Bernard Bohan, Corduff, and Peter Cannon, Finnalaughta, evicted tenants on the estate of the late Colonel Forbes, in county Leitrim, restored to their former holdings, and, as negotiations are going on for the sale of this estate, if the Estates Commissioners will see that these evicted tenants get the privilege of signing the purchase agreements, and not the men who are in possession of the farms at present.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement from Bernard Bohan, but not from Peter Cannon. Bohan is in occupation of a holding of sixteen acres, being part of the holding from which his father was evicted. The remainder of the evicted holding is in the occupation of another tenant who is not prepared to surrender it. In the circumstances the Commissioners have decided to take no action in the matter.

  Rates for Irish Education.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what was the total sum raised by local rates during 1906–7 for the purpose of elementary education in Ireland.
  MR. BIRRELL: No local education rate is raised in Ireland. The expenses of school attendance committees, however, fall upon the rates; and the cost of repairing national schools not vested in the Commissioners of National Education is borne by the localities, as well as a portion of the cost of building such schools.

  Catholics and Irish Government Appointment
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that, soon after the appointment of Mr. Henry Williams as Secretary to the Board of Works, Dublin, a letter was received from the Civil Service Commissioners and opened in the Registry to the effect that the Civil Service Commissioners made no inquiry into the religion of clerks appointed after open competition to Government Departments, and considering that this was not a circular letter, and must have been a reply to a special request made by the Board of

  779
  Works to have no Roman Catholics appointed to the office, will he cause inquiry to be made from the Board of Works who was responsible for approaching the Civil Service Commissioners on this matter; and, in view of the general belief in the department that it was the Secretary who was guilty of this action, unprecedented in the history of the Civil Service, will he have all the papers in connection with this matter laid before the House of Commons at an early date.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. RUNCIMAN,): If the hon. Member will supply me with the evidence on which he has decided to make a charge of this character, I will have it carefully investigated.

  STANDING COMMITTEES—EFFECT OF NEW RULES OF PROCEDURE.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDasked the Speaker what would be the position of the two Standing Committees in view of the changes that would be made by the new rules of procedure.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The conclusion to which I have come is that there is nothing in the new Standing Orders to abrogate the position of the two Standing Committees on Law and Trade; they will remain and continue to exercise the functions they have hitherto exercised and will dispose of the Bills committed to them, until such time, if any, as the House may take other action or until they have completed their work. If the House chooses to transfer the series of Bills which has been committed to the two Committees, to the new Committees to be appointed, that is a matter for the House to decide; but until that decision is come to it is the duty of the two Committees to continue and to dispose of the work committed to them by the House.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINasked if the House was to understand that, until the House otherwise ordered, there would be four Standing Committees in addition to the existing two.
  *MR. SPEAKER: There cannot be six Committees; the House has not provided for them. The House has provided for four, and the two existing Committees will go on with their work until their labours are concluded, unless the House takes other steps and sets up two new Committees in lieu of them.
  LORD BALCARRESinquired whether private Members would continue to retain the precedence on both the existing Grand Committees which they now possessed.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I take it that the rules which regulate the working of the Grand Committees will continue to apply to them so long as these Grand Committees are in force.

NEW BILL.
  HOME WORK BILL.
  "To provide for the better regulation of Home industries," presented by Mr. Barnes; supported by Mr. Keir Hardie, Mr. Alexander Wilkie, Mr. Cameron Corbett, Mr. Cleland, Mr. Rainy, Mr. Charles Duncan, Mr. Summerbell, Mr. James Parker, and Mr. Steadman; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 158.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (PROCEDURE).
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment [15th April] to Question [20th March], as amended,—"(1) When a Bill has been a second time it shall stand committed to one of the Standing Committees, unless the House, on Motion to be decided without Amendment or debate, otherwise order, and such a Motion shall not require notice, must be made immediately after the Bill is read a second time, may be made by any Member, and may, though opposed, be decided after the expiration of the time for opposed business. But this Order shall not apply to—(a) Bills for imposing taxes, or Consolidated Fund or Appropriation Bills; or (b) Bills for confirming Provisional Orders. (2) The House may, on Motion made by the Member in charge of a Bill, commit the

  781
  Bill to a Standing Committee in respect of some of its provisions, and to a Committee of the whole House in respect of other provisions. If such a Motion is opposed, the Speaker, after permitting, if he thinks fit, a brief explanatory statement from the Member who makes and from the Member who opposes the Motion, shall without further debate put the Question thereon."—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Which Amendment was—
  "In line 10, at the end, to insert the words,—'(c) Bills to create a subordinate legislature in any part of the United Kingdom, (d) Bills to give effect to treaties, conventions, or other international arrangements. (e) Bills to sanction the cession of any territory forming part of the dominions of the Crown."'—(Mr. Stuart Wortley.)
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid he wished to draw attention to the extreme importance of excepting from the operation of the Rule Bills which affected treaties, conventions, or other international arrangements. This was a serious question for hon. Members to consider, as they would realise when they remembered what occurred not so very long ago in connection with the New Hebrides, and what might occur again if the Prime Minister's proposals were carried without Amendment. Obviously a Convention which affected not only this country but France and our Australasian Colonies as well as the native and white populations of the New Hebrides, ought to have been fully discussed in the House itself. He would not, however, labour that point which had been so well put by the right hon. Member for the Hallam Division of Sheffield on the previous night, but he would appeal to hon. Members generally to consider carefully the importance of the power which they were being asked to part with. Then again there was the question of the cession of territory. Surely it would be a great innovation for the House to allow Bills of that nature to be removed from full discussion in the House. But he would pass from these points and deal with (c) affecting Bills to create a subordinate legislature in any part of the United Kingdom. That was indeed a very important matter, and in his opinion the right hon. Member
  782
  for Hallam had not gone tar enough in wording his Amendment. There had been statements both in and out of Parliament with regard to the proposed legislation for Ireland, and although he took it that the intention of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Hallam Division was to prevent the possibility of any question regarding Home Rule or any measure extending self-government in Ireland being removed from discussion on the floor of the House, he feared that after the contradictory statements made by various Ministers as to the intentions of the Government it would be necessary to widen the Amendment, so as to make sure that when the Bill was introduced—and he sincerely hoped it never would be—it would not be open for Ministers to claim that it was not really a measure which created a subordinate legislature in any part of the United Kingdom. What they had to fear was that a Bill might possibly be sent upstairs which, although professing not to be a Bill of the nature described in the clause, was really intended to lead up to a separate legislature for one portion of the United Kingdom, and he took it that the intention of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment was to prevent the possibility of such a Bill being sent upstairs. To make it clearer, however, he intended to propose, as an Amendment to that Amendment, to add after the word "kingdom" the words "or Bills which their promoters declare are intended to lead up to a subordinate legislature in any part of the United Kingdom." Those words would secure them against such legislation being relegated to a certain number of gentlemen upstairs. Although it was quite possible for the great majority now in power to defeat the proposal there ought to be a sense of fairness which would recognise that there was in the House a minority which really and sincerely feared the introduction of legislation of this kind, believing it would be seriously detrimental to the prosperity of their country, and feeling the necessity for the freest possible debate on all stages in the House itself. Had the Amendment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University been accepted in the spirit in which it was brought forward his own Amendment would not have been so necessary, as on the Report stage it would have been possible fully to

  783
  discuss vital points raised in Committee; but as he understood the Prime Minister's Amendment it did not go so far as was promised. The fact was they had been betrayed, and consequently a safeguard had been taken away from them. In the past the House had shown itself most jealous in protecting the interests of minorities. There was no minority in that House so small and yet so excellently representative as the Irish Unionist Party, and it was in their interest that he moved his Amendment. He hoped that hon. Members' sense of fairness would incline them to give it due consideration, and to remove from the operation of the proposed Rule a Bill to which the Unionist Members looked forward with horror, and which if it were ever introduced ought to be subjected to full analytical criticism and debate in the House itself. He begged to move.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHseconded the Amendment. While agreeing with the first part of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Hallam Division, he felt that it required amplification in the way proposed by his hon. and gallant friend, and he sincerely hoped the House would see its way to adopt the suggestion. It seemed to be the desire of the Government to stifle discussion on all important questions, but inasmuch as the introduction of any measure tending to the establishment of a separate Legislature in any part of the kingdom would be a direct revolution in the policy of the country, such a measure ought to be fully and adequately discussed on the floor of the House, so that the discussion might come out fully in the Press, and the people of the country learn what was proposed to be done by the Government at the instance of their ardent supporters below the gangway. The adoption of his hon. and gallant friend's Amendment would preclude any possibility of a Bill obviously intended to set up a separate Legislature being sent upstairs instead of receiving adequate discussion on the floor of the House.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 2, after the word 'Kingdom,' to insert the words 'or Bills which the promoters declare are intended to lead up to a subordinate
  784
  Legislature in any part of the United Kingdom.'"—(Captain Craig.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.)said the noble Lord and the hon. and gallant Gentleman seemed to have a thorough conviction as to the contents and tendency of a measure which they had not yet seen. So far as he could he desired to calm the apprehensions, which he thought unnecessary, in the breasts of those hon. Members. There was no intention whatever of sending the measure to which the hon. Members referred upstairs. It would, from the beginning to the end of its, he hoped, fortunate and peaceful passage, be retained in the House, in the atmosphere of which hon. Gentlemen would have the infinite satisfaction of discussing it. But when they came to the insertion of general words in a Rule of this kind, especially such vague words as these proposed, he did not think any sensible Legislature would take such a course. He could only repeat that from beginning to end Bills of this kind would remain in the custody of the House, and the Government had no intention whatever of sending them upstairs.
  MR. WALTER LONGdid not think that the Answer given by the right hon. Gentleman would be regarded as satisfactory by the mover and seconder of the Amendment. If the right hon. Gentleman had taken the trouble to follow the speeches of his own Leader, the Prime Minister, he would not be in such a state of ignorance as he now found himself. They presumed that the Prime Minister spoke with a full knowledge of the intentions of the Government, and he had left no doubt in the minds of his hearers that the Bill to be brought forward was one which would lead up to the larger measure of Home Rule What could be the objection of the Government to stating in plain language what they meant? They were not dealing with an Order which was merely special in its character. They were altering the Standing Orders for all time, and it could be no answer to the objections raised on that side to say "You

  785
  have a particular measure in your minds, and we say it is not going to be taken upstairs." What they asked was that it should be stated what measures were to be retained in the House. In the general discussion on the Prime Minister's proposal he raised a point which had never been answered, viz., what were the Government's intentions with regard to adverse decisions on Bills in Grand Committees. [Interruption.] It was of no use lion. Gentlemen interrupting him, he was in the hands of Mr. Speaker, who was quite competent to tell him if he were not in order, and the President of the Board of Education, by his interruptions, was showing that he had little regard for the time of the House. Supposing a Bill were introduced from which were carefully excluded powers which certain sections of the House desired to see included, and a combination were formed which carried against the Government a Motion that was vital to the Bill, the usual consequences would follow. What he asked the Chancellor of the Duchy was this: a Bill went upstairs, and if such a combination were formed, and the Government were defeated, what course did the Government propose to take, having regard to the amended procedure? Were they to regard the defeat upstairs in a Committee of eighty members in the same light as they would regard it in the House, or did they propose entirely to disregard the defeat upstairs and wait until the Bill came back to the House, making full use of the interval for the application of the usual arguments to hon. Gentlemen who had voted against them? They might entirely change the decision of Parliament by the very fact that they disregarded a decision upstairs, though that decision was vital to the Bill. He submitted that that was a constitutional question which the Government ought to answer.
  VISCOUNT TURNOURsaid the right hon. Gentleman had stated that it was not the intention of the Government to send upstairs the Bill foreshadowed in connection with the Government of Ireland. Surely the time had gone by when they could place reliance on what was the intention of the Government in the matter.
  786
  He thought, in any case, that it was a very weak argument for the right hon. Gentleman to use. Certainly, after what the right hon. Gentleman had said, it was not a question of the intention of the Government, but of what the Government were likely to do. What, in this case, were the Government likely to do if they found that their intentions were not likely to be received in the spirit in which they should be received by hon. Members below the gangway? But the Bill foreshadowed for Ireland was not the only Bill which his hon. and gallant friend had in view when he moved his Amendment. There were a great many other Bills that might be brought forward in the near future leading up to the provision of a separate Legislature. He hoped the Prime Minister would answer the Amendment of his hon. and gallant friend, and give a rather fuller answer than that by the Chief Secretary.
  *SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid he would not be so discourteous as not to answer the right hon. Gentleman, who had appealed to him personally, although it was rather difficult to answer, especially after the speech which the noble Lord had just made. It was the kind of speech which he thought the noble Lord would regret when he had been a little longer in the House. The answer to the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly clear. The case which he put was a Government defeat by a combination in the Standing Committee on a point which the Government regarded as vital. Of course the Government, when the Bill came down from Committee, would take the course which all Governments took. The House would have to grapple with the situation as a whole. As to an alteration introduced by a casual combination of a very small minority compared with the whole House, the Government would tell the House, as Governments had already done, that when there was a clause put into a Bill which they regarded as vital to it, and which would impair what they considered the intention and purport and meaning of the Bill, they would take the usual course, and they would have to follow the course which the House thought

  787
  best. They all remembered Mr. Gladstone's phrase, which was that—
  "The Government regard this as vital,"
  and the House knew what that meant.
  MR. WALTER LONG: That statement was made during the progress of the Committee, and if the decision in Committee was adverse, the action which the Government would take would immediately follow.
  SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid he thought that made the case stronger for the Government, for it then took it out of the discretion, after a final decision, of the Committee, which was not competent to decide questions on which the existence of the Government depended. It was not competent for eighty Members of the House to decide whether the Government possessed the confidence of the House of Commons. It would have been very hard on the late Government if that had been done in the past. It was rather difficult when the House was heated, but he appealed to the common sense of the House in this matter. They were told that they were practically rogues, but they were not fools, and they would act as commonsense men would do. He did not think that any Government had ever sat on those Benches which had not acted in accordance with the highest sense of what was due to the House and country when vital questions were before them.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the statement which the right hon. Gentleman had just made was, he thought, the answer which his right hon. friend expected to get from him. But of course the House saw what it involved in a large number of cases—the ignoring by the Government of the decisions and labours of the Committees which they had gone to such trouble to set up. If the opinion of the Committee happened to differ from the opinion of the Government, the Government would reserve to itself the right to ask the House upon Report to go into the whole question again and reverse the decision of the Committee. If the Government reserved to themselves that discretion they would not dispute the right of every Member
  788
  of the House to exercise the same discretion. If the Government had the right, it was also the right of the individual Member. Accordingly what they had to contemplate was that the Report stage would be far more arduous than at present, that decisions on the Committee stage would carry far less weight than they did now, and that the House on Report would constantly have the right to undo and do over again the work which had been done in Committee. The Chancellor of the Duchy had commented with some warmth on the speech of his hon. friend behind him. He thought it was needless warmth, and when the right hon. Gentleman thought of what his hon. friend had said, he would see that it did not call for the rebuke which, as an old Member, he had administered to his hon. friend. What his noble friend said was that they could not rely on the intentions of the Government.
  *SIR HENRY FOWLER: The noble Lord said that reliance could not be placed on the statements of the Government.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, the noble Lord said that reliance could not be placed upon the intentions of the Government, and it was a correction of the right hon. Gentleman which he made on his hon. friend's behalf.
  *SIR HENRY FOWLERaccepted the explanation.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that nobody would contend for one moment that the intentions of the Government at the present moment were binding upon them a couple of years hence, say; still less were they binding on any other Government. Without being offensive, he begged to recall to the House the fact that the Prime Minister himself had explained more than once the difference between an intention expressed by the Government and a pledge given by the Government. On more than one occasion they thought they had received a pledge from the Government. The right hon. Gentleman had corrected them, explaining that he had expressed

  789
  an intention in the light of the Government's then knowledge and expectations as to the course of business, and he had resented pretty strongly any suggestion from the Opposition of a breach of faith. Intentions were not a very suitable basis on which to place Standing Orders. Only on Thursday last the right hon. Gentleman had expressed his intention to accept the Amendment of his right hon. friend the Member for Dublin University. That was the Prime Minister's intention, but his Amendment did not carry out that intention. From facts fresh in their memory, he submitted that his noble friend had said no more than what was obvious to any man when he stated that in making Standing Orders they could not rely on the intentions of the Government.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: felt that there was more substance in this Amendment than the right hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Treasury Bench had realised even in regard to the particular Bill alluded to by the Chief Secretary. It would be within the recollection of the House that the Chief Secretary had assured his hon. and gallant friend that he did not need to be under any apprehension in regard to the Irish Bill, or as to whether it was intended to lead up to Home Rule. The Amendment before them really raised the big question of the reference of contentious Bills to Grand Committees. He thought he was right in saying that when the Grand Committee system was instituted in 1882 it was not Mr. Gladstone's intention that the Committees should be used for the discussion of highly contentious measures. Mr. Gladstone, speaking of these Grand Committees, said—
  "The Committees would consider only these subjects with which the painful considerations of Party cannot be mixed up."
  The Chief Secretary had stated that the particular Bill referred to would not go to a Grand Committee, but the point they wished to press was, would Bills of that character go to a Grand Committee? The Government had already refused an Amendment which would have prevented Bills of a highly contentious character going to a Grand Committee. The Prime Minister, in the statement he
  790
  had made, appeared to be contemplating the possibility of the Scottish Land Bill going to one of these Committees. When the right hon. Gentleman suggested that a Bill of that character might be sent upstairs he would remind him that in 1894, when the Scottish Committee was set up, it was said that it was perfectly plain that a Crofters Bill could not be referred to such a Committee. Upon the general question he would like to quote one of the greatest Parliamentarians, the late Sir William Harcourt. In the debates on the setting up of the Scottish Committee in 1894, an Amendment was moved defining what kind of Bills should be dealt with, and Sir William Harcourt said—
  "When the noble Lord asks me whether great Parliamentary questions such as the Land Acts, Home Rule, Disestablishment, and questions of that kind, which I call of a highly political and controversial character, are proper subjects for a Committee of this character. I have to tell him that that is not the object of a Committee of this character."
  He went on to say—
  "That the Committee was to be used for measures which were not of a high political character."
  That view was confirmed by Sir George Trevelyan, who went even further, for he said—
  "No Bill objected to by a large minority of the House would ever be referred to that Committee."
  Then Sir George Trevelyan went on to say—
  "No Government, unless composed of nothing short of lunatics, would propose to bring any contentious Bill before a Grand Committee."
  He reminded the Prime Minister that several times in the course of these debates the opinion was expressed that particular Bills would not be brought before the Grand Committee, on the ground that they involved high constitutional principles. If the Government had accepted the previous Amendment there would have been no necessity to move the one under discussion; but as they had refused a general Amendment these proposals were now necessary. With regard to the possible defeat of the Government in Committee, he assumed that the Government in forming these Rules were contemplating a code of procedure not only

  791
  for this Parliament but to facilitate the work of the House in the future. But what would happen? There might come a time when some other Government would sit on the benches opposite. There might be a Conservative Government in power and Scotland might be represented by a majority of Radical Members. Under these circumstances to defeat a Committee would be a matter of daily occurrence, and then the Government would become a sort of political Penelope undoing what had been done on these Committees. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rushcliffe appeared to suggest that the object of these Committees was to enable a Liberal Government to pass Liberal legislation. That might be a laudable object from the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but it was not a proper conception of the functions of any Committee of the House. He would again appeal to the late Sir William Harcourt, who said—
  "He would never be a Party to the breaking up of the control of the House of Commons as a whole over great questions which interested the whole country."
  He went on to say—
  "To use any instrument of this kind to secure the predominance of a Party majority would be an abuse of power."
  For these reasons he strongly supported the Amendment of his hon. and gallant friend.
  MR. DALZIELthought the Opposition might very well rest satisfied with the declaration of the Chief Secretary that it was not the intention of the Government to send Bills dealing with Ireland to any of the Committees upstairs. With regard to the question whether the Government of the day ought to regard a defeat in Committee upstairs as equivalent to a defeat downstairs he could not understand the position taken up by the Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin had complained that the Government would not regard a defeat upstairs in that light.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I did not say that; I simply asked the question.
  MR. DALZIELsaid the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire had re-
  792
  ferred to the position of a Conservative Government if there happened to be on the Scottish Committee a majority of Radical Members representing Scotland able to carry propositions upstairs which the Government would have to reverse downstairs. Did the hon. Member contend that Scottish opinion should not prevail when a Tory Government was in power? That was not the argument he used at the last general election.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid it was quite right that Scottish opinion should prevail, but that did not necessarily mean Scottish Radical opinion.
  MR. DALZIELsaid the representation of Scotland had been overwhelmingly Radical for many years. It did not appear to be recognised that the Government were making a very important departure so far as the whole administration of the House was concerned. If they were simply going to regard the new Committees as the embodiment of the old ones they ought not to be wasting time discussing these new proposals. The proposals of the Government were far-reaching and struck vitally at the whole business arrangements of the House with a view to taking away all those matters of detail which could be properly threshed out upstairs, thus leaving the time of the House free for the consideration of the greater questions which might come before them. In reading quotations from speeches made many years ago it was necessary to remember that they were now living under different circumstances. The present was a more democratic House of Commons than had been previously elected, and it was pledged to deal with certain reforms. It was because it was through the medium of these Grand Committees that those great objects were to be achieved that the majority of the House would support the proposal of the Government. As to the position of the Government in relation to the decisions of Committees upstairs, if there should happen to be an Amendment carried against the Government it would depend entirely on the relative importance of the Amendment whether the Government could accept it when the Bill came downstairs. The Minister in charge might accept

  793
  it so as to speed the passage of the Bill through the House. It would always be in the power of the Government to reverse or to approve the decisions of the Grand Committees. The House would retain supreme power over all the deliberations of Committees upstairs. They would have that security on the Report stage.
  *SIR ARTHUR BIGNOLDsaid the difficulty was in knowing what was controversial matter. In the last Parliament, when the Musical Copyright Bill was introduced, he had the honour to submit to the then Prime Minister a request asking him to "star" it on the Order Paper. The petition was signed by forty-nine out of every fifty Members to whom it was presented. The Government of the day "starred" it, but it did not pass. When the present Government adopted a Bill introduced by Mr. Agar-Robartes, the Prime Minister justified the course he had taken in "starring" it by pointing to the Musical Copyright Bill as a highly controversial measure which his predecessor had starred. When the hon. Member for the Aston Manor referred yesterday to the Scottish Small Holdings Bill as a Bill so contentious that the Government would certainly not send it upstairs, Ministers shook their heads and led the House to infer that the Bill might be relegated to Grand Committee.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has forgotten the Amendment which is now before the House.
  *SIR ARTHUR BIGNOLDsaid he bowed to the ruling. He trusted that the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment, and that before the discussion was concluded that evening they would give the House some intimation of what they meant by a controversial measure.
  COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid he could not help thinking that the Government had chosen a method which was likely to lead to more controversy than was necessary in the proceedings of the House. He understood that the object of the Government in, introducing this particular change in the Rules was to produce as much legislation as possible
  794
  in a given timeout of the Parliamentary machine. He did not find fault with that at the moment, but the objection of hon. Members on his side of the House was that the Parliamentary machine could only produce so much work in a given time. He ventured to suggest that the Government were applying the wrong remedy. The remedy was to produce less legislation, but of a better sort.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is discussing the Resolution as a whole. We have not arrived at that point yet. The only question now is whether Bills which, in the opinion of the promoters, may lead to the formation of subordinate Parliaments are to be kept here or sent upstairs.
  COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid he understood that, and he would not pursue the question as to the proper remedy.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTSsaid they had received from the Chief Secretary for Ireland a reply which was satisfactory as to the immediate measure which the Government proposed to introduce for Ireland, but it did not go far enough for himself and his friends. They held that all measures in the future which were so important that the Government themselves said they were intended to lead up to a separate Parliament were measures which ought automatically to be excepted from consideration by Grand Committee. His right hon. friend had moved an Amendment, but there was no reply from the front Government bench. He asked whether Bills of the class mentioned by his right hon. friend were not of such importance that they ought to be retained in the House. He fancied that the reply of the right hon. Gentleman to whom the question was addressed would probably be, "Yes, they are, and we do not intend that these measures should go upstairs." If that was so, why did the Government object to accept the Amendment? Why not put it in black and white in the Standing Order? He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to accept the Amendment.
  SIR FRANCIS LOWEsaid the alteration of the

  795
  Rules of procedure should not be treated as a Party question. In the circum stances he was rather surprised that the Prime Minister had not met in a more conciliatory spirit the valid and reasonable objections to some of the proposals. He himself was in favour of a further extension of the principle of referring to Standing Committees some of the details of non-controversial measures, and if these alterations could be made in that spirit he would be disposed to support the Government in regard to a great many of them. It had been conclusively shown that a Bill of the character referred to in the Amendment did not come at all within that description. Any Bill which proposed to make an extensive alteration in the Constitution of the United Kingdom would be of a highly controversial nature. He thought, therefore, that was a class of Bill which might very well be excepted from the operation of the Rule. He appealed to the Prime Minister to say whether he could not introduce some general words which would exclude from the operation of the Rule Bills of a highly controversial character. He thought the present case would be entirely met if the right hon. Gentleman would include in the exceptions any Bill making any vital alteration in the Constitution of the United Kingdom. That would not in any way prejudice the position of the Government, because they had declared that they had no intention to send to the Grand Committees Bills of that character. The matter was of far too great importance to be left to the discretion of any Government. Now was the time for the Prime Minister to be a little conciliatory.
  LORD WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY: believed there were a great many Bills not of a highly contentious character which might fairly be discussed, and which might perhaps receive fairer treatment, in the Grand Committees than in Committee of the Whole House. That was partly owing to the fact that in order to vote Members had to be present at the moment the Question was put. On the other hand, he felt that a strong case had been made out for the acceptance of the Amendment proposed
  796
  by the hon. and gallant Member. It seemed to him that this method of sending upstairs Bills of all descriptions relating to different parts of the United Kingdom contained within it a great danger. He had listened with some interest to the remarks of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, who was particularly anxious to show that in Scotland during the last twenty or more years the great mass of political opinion had been democratic. But he would remind the House that there had been in the past a different position in that country from that which now obtained. When the question of setting up Committees composed of Members for Scotland, Ireland, and Wales was first introduced the Liberal Party was in power, but commanded only a small majority, largely composed of Irish, Welsh, and Scottish Members, while the great proportion of the Members of the House were strongly Conservative Englishmen. That would happen again in the future, and he well remembered the late Lord Randolph Churchill pointing out that if they were going to set up Grand Committees for Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, they must give the same rights to England.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order. There is a proposition down on the Paper later dealing with that point.
  LORD WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBYsaid what he wanted to urge was that the proposals of the Government would create a feeling in the country that they were advancing towards Home Rule all round—a principle which, he believed, would never be accepted by the majority of the people.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYsaid he presumed that right hon. Gentlemen opposite would admit that all the members of the Government should be accepted as promoters of the Bills mentioned in the King's Speech. The reason why he was strongly induced to support the Amendment of his hon. and gallant friend was that he thought it would have some considerable effect in putting an end to an unfortunate habit which had grown up in the country and was particularly noticeable at the

  797
  last general election namely, that of different members of the Government having different views as to Bills that were to be introduced. Sometimes it was found convenient for one member of the Government to declare that a certain Bill would not have the effect which some people imagined it would have: and another member of the Government, or possibly the same member, addressing another audience, would give an entirely different rendering of the effect of the
  Bill if passed. The proposed of his hon. and gallant friend would stop a great deal of loose talking and tend in the direction which he was sure the Government had in view—the retaining within the purview of the Whole House of such Bills as were set forth in the Amendment.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 108; Noes, 329. (Division List No. 121.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn Sir Alex. F.

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Parker. Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Arnold-Forster. Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Forster, Henry William

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gardner. Ernest (Berks, East)

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Randles, Sir John Sourrah

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Haddock, George R.

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, X.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W).

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hervey, F. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hunt, Rowland

  Starkey, John R.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Talbot Lard E. (Chichester)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Kenyon-Slaney. Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

  Lane-Fox. G. R.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Liddell, Henry

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. JA (Wore.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingh'm

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W

  Wolff. Gustav Wilhelm

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Meysey-Thompson. E. C.

  Younger, George

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Captain Craig and Viscount

  Fell, Arthur

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Castlereagh.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Bell, Richard

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Agnew, George William

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barker, John

  Bethell, Sir J. H (Essex, Romf'rd

  Alden, Percy

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't

  Billson, Alfred

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Boland, John

  Armitage, R.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Beale, W. P.

  Brace, Williams

  Astbury, John Meir

  Beacuhamp, E.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Branch, James

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Brigg, John

  Ginnell, L.

  M'Crae, George

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Glover, Thomas

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Killop, W.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Maddison, Frederick

  Byles, William Pollard

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Cameron, Robert

  Hall, Frederick

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Halpin, J.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Marnham, F. J.

  Causton Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Massie, J.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Harrington, Timothy

  Meagher, Michael

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Menzies, Walter

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Harwood, George

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mond, A.

  Clough, William

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Clynes, J. R.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Montagu, E. S.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Mooney, J. J.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Henry, Charles S.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morrell, Philip

  Cooper, G. J.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Nicholls, George

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hodge, John

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Cory, Clifford John

  Hogan, Michael

  Nolan, Joseph

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Cox, Harold

  Hooper, A. G.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Crean, Eugene

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Crombie, John William

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Crossley, William J.

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  O'Dowd, John

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Grady, J.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  O'Malley, William

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Delany, William

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Partington, Oswald

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jones, Leif (Apple by)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Joyce, Michael

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Duckworth, James

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Elibank, Master of

  Lambert, George

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Lamont, Norman

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Erskine, David C.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Essex, R. W.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Evans, Jamuel T.

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Levy, Maurice

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Ferens, T. R

  Lough, Thomas

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lundon, W.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradt'rd

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lynch, H. B.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Robinson, S.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bg'hs

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Runciman, Walter

  Gilhooly, James

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  800

  801

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Warner, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Summerbell, T.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Sears, J. E.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whitbread, Howard

  Seavenrs, J. H.

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  White, George (Norfork)

  Seddon, J.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Whitley John Henry (Halifax)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Wiles, Thomas

  Sheehy, David

  Thorne, William

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Tomkinson, James

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Toulmin, George

  Wilson, Henry J (York, W. R.)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Ure, Alexander

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Verney, F. W.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Snowden, P.

  Vivian, Henry

  Winfrey, R.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Steadman, W. C.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Wardle, George J.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Waring, Walter

  Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  *SIR WILLIAM ANSONdesired to say a few words on the Amendment, not with a hope of carrying conviction to hon. Members opposite, but because he wished to record his protest against carrying rules which he believed would be detrimental to the well-being of the House. What were the arguments urged by the Government for excluding from the purview of these Committees the very important matters which were included in the Amendment of his right hon. friend. They were referred again and again to the Report of the Procedure Committee of 1886, and that in fact was the only reason which the right hon. Gentleman had advanced for refusing to give attention to proposals to exclude matters of national or constitutional importance from the consideration of these Committees. The fact was, however, that the Report of that Committee had very little application to the present situation. What Committees did that Committee propose to set up under that Report? They were not ad hoc Committees, but the House was to be divided into four Committees who were to meet, each forming a quarter of the whole House, for the discussion of matters which were to come back to the House for discussion upon Report. That was a very different
  802
  matter from the appointment of Committees ad hoc of sixty or eighty Members. In 1886 they had not realised the full effect of the legislation of 1885; they bad not realised that the Redistribution Act of that year would work out in such a way that the elections might give to one Party or another a majority in the country quite out of proportion to the votes cast for it. He did not think the Report of that Committee was framed in anticipation of the enormous majorities which placed great and dangerous powers in the hands of a Government. Then again, closure, in those days, was in its infancy, and the idea of closure by compartments had not been introduced. If they wished to accelerate the business of the House he would venture to say that closure by compartments, determined upon in the initial stages of a Bill, was the best way to secure a full and reasonable discussion of the important parts. At that time, however, closure by compartments had not been considered, and, as he had said, closure in the ordinary form was in its infancy. At that time there was certainly no suggestion of the power of closure being given to the Chairman of any one of the four Committees which were contemplated in the Report of the Committee of 1886. That being so, the Report of that Committee was really inapplicable to the present situation. What other reasons for rejecting this Amendment had been

  803
  assigned by the Government? Did they mean to send up as a matter of course these ad hoc Committees' Bills dealing with the great subjects which had been alluded to, or did they consider that it was beyond the range of possibility that a Home Rule Bill, or a Bill for the cession of territory or the like, should be sent up? If they considered it impossible why did they not say so? If they would say so, he did not wish to express any doubt as to the intentions of the Government, or to bring himself under the rebuke of the Chancellor of the Duchy, but this Government had taught them that a great many things were possible that they had hardly conceived to be within the range of possibility before the commencement of the session last year. Was it to be left within the range of possibility that such a Bill as the Home Rule Bill of 1893, that a Bill to carry out a commercial treaty—say the Sugar Convention Bill or the Bill for the cession of Heligoland—was to be dealt with by a Committee of sixty or eighty Members, upon which the Opposition might be very sparsely represented? Moreover, he would ask under what conditions the Government would allow the possibility of such a discussion to take place? These Committees would discuss matters without any authentic report being given of their proceedings. The Chairman would have given to him freely a power of closure which had only been gradually granted to the Speaker and the Chairman of Committees in the House, and was only given to the Deputy-Speaker now with a reservation. The public would not only know nothing or practically nothing of the course of the debate, but they would not know the reasons for which closure was given or the circumstances under which the debate had been curtailed, and they would have no means of judging of what had been the extent of the fair discussion allowed: this would depend on the idiosyncrasies of the particular Chairman of a particular Committee on a question of constitutional importance. They had heard in the course of the debate the sort of view which the Government took of these Committees, and it appeared that so long as a Committee
  804
  did what the Government pleased and carried out its intentions they might alter the Constitution of the country and cede territory, make commercial treaties, and so on. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No, no."] These Grand Committees, as he understood it, were to have free power to deal with any subject, with the very limited exceptions included in the right hon. Gentleman's Rules, which might be sent before them.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,)said the hon. Gentleman must not say that the Committee had this power of proceeding. The House of Commons had still some power somewhere. A Bill must be read a second time in the House, and then there was the Report stage and the Third Reading. The hon. Baronet was exaggerating.
  *SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he could assure the Prime Minister that he was quite familiar with the forms of the House, and had the right hon. Gentleman heard the speech of the Chancellor of the Duchy he would have understood the purport of what he was then saying, which was not intended to be in disparagement of the ordinary procedure of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy was asked what would be the attitude of the Government when the Committee went against them on a question which the Government said was a vital one? The Chancellor of the Duchy said the action of the Committee would be remedied when the measure came down to the House; the Government would turn on its engine and upset the decision of the Committee. What, therefore, he wanted to point out was that it was rather a contradiction that a Committee of eighty Members might have the management of that very important stage, which was in the view of the country the most important stage of a Bill, they might have full power to deal with questions of the highest importance, but if they out stepped for one moment the wishes of the Government or lagged behind them the Government would not regard their decisions as vital, but they were

  805
  to be set aside at once on the Report, stage. There was in the contemplated procedure a possible arbitrary curtailment of debate by the powers of using the closure given to a possibly partisan Chairman. There was also a denial of publicity which he could hardly think the Government would wish to maintain. In fact, there would be no official report of these proceedings and no knowledge of the circumstances under which the closure was applied. He would also ask what would be the effect upon the general business of the House if these Committees were to deal with these very important subjects, which might come up every session, sometimes in several Bills. They would have four Committees of eighty Members, possibly one dealing with Home Rule, another with a commercial treaty, a third with the cession of territory, and a fourth with the reconstitution of the Army. These Committees would sit from eleven o'clock in the morning to four o'clock in the afternoon, and he would like to ask with what heart or energy would the members of these Committees come down to the discussion of a complicated Finance Bill, or the Report stage of a Bill hurried through the Committee by means of the closure upstairs, in the crude form in which Bills had in times within very recent recollection come down to that House. Unless some limit was put upon the subjects which might come before these Committees the business of the House might possibly fall into two sets of hands, those who attended Grand Committees and those who did not, and the ordinary items of discussion on administration and finance, and the subjects which would not be brought before the Grand Committees, including the Report stages of the Bills, would be dealt with mainly by the men who came fresh to work at four o'clock, and would be treated in a half-hearted way, if at all, by the jaded voluptuaries of Parliamentary work who had been sitting upstairs from eleven to four. He was afraid that the Government, in their desire to secure legislation which they wanted, were really doing a permanent injury to the House, and he appealed to the Prime Minister to reconsider that aspect of the question. The House was not merely a legislative
  806
  machine, but the country looked to it for information on great political questions and for the best criticism that could be given on the conduct of the Government in all Departments of the State. The country also looked to the House for the best that could be learned of the details of all important measures before the House. That the country would not obtain if they worked the greater portion of the House to a standstill before four o'clock in the afternoon, and if they concealed from the public the discussion which took place in Committee on the Bills which were dealt with between eleven and four. The whole scope of the exceptions put forward by the Government was, to his mind, most disappointing and most unsatisfactory to anyone who cared, as he ventured to say he cared, for the due conduct of business in, and the high reputation of, the House. It had been his lot at one time or another to make some study of the institutions of the country, and he had studied them with admiration, and he would even add with reverence, and it was to him a matter of regret that he should see this Government, so strong in ability, so inordinately strong in numbers, stifling debate and tramping on legitimate opposition in order to carry Rules which he believed would gravely, if not irretrievably, impair the dignity, diminish the usefulness, and lower the reputation of the House.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid he thanked his right hon. friend for the little compliment he had paid the Government. He was glad, and it was quite refreshing to find that anyone thought well of the Government at all after the sort of Whip which had been sent round to an admiring flock, to the effect that they were physically unable to sit up late at night, and mentally incapable of explaining or defending their scheme for strangling free debate in the House. If that was the gospel that had been preached behind the curtain for months past to the flock on the other side by their pastor and master, he was surprised that it should occur to one of the hon. Members opposite to use the words "most able." The superlative quite startled him. The hon. Baronet, if he would allow him to say so, had fallen into the error which had been

  807
  proved to exist in all the speeches made on the Amendments moved upon the general question. If hon. Members were allowed to go according to their own sweet wills on such an occasion, it was a case of "Unconscious of their doom, the little victims play." They had so many hours in which they might employ themselves very usefully in discussing questions which deserved to be discussed, such as the question relating to the Scottish Committee. But, no, they preferred to play. As he had said, the hon. Baronet seemed to have fallen into an error which was saturated with fallacy. He talked of a Committee ad hoc. No doubt he had been so long at the Education Department, and when there had got so used to the phrase against which he protested, that it had so got into his mind that he must use it. The hon. Baronet called these Committees ad hoc, but they were nothing of the kind. Originally there was a distinction between the Committee on Trade and that on Law, but that had long since ceased to have effect and had disappeared. The hon. Member said what a dreadful thing it would be to have Bills dealing with treaties, Conventions, or other international arrangements, or Bills dealing with the cession of territory, referred to these Committees. Here he came to the little element of appositeness which he could find in the speech of the hon. Member. He had ventured to interrupt him and to point out that it was not the Committee but the House which sanctioned these things, because the latter passed the Second Reading, and therefore, if something prejudicial was enacted, the House would be as much to blame as the Committee. As a matter of fact, Bills which involved the cession of territory were not always very complicated. When Heligoland was ceded, the Bill only contained two clauses, one of which contained the short title, and the other simply provided for the assent of Parliament to the agreement between Her Majesty's Government and the Emperor of Germany as set forth in the schedule of the Bill, and set out that it should be lawful for the late Queen to do anything which was necessary or proper to carry into effect those provisions. The hon. Member seemed to think that they should exclude a Bill
  808
  of that kind from going to any Committee, and that it ought to be reserved for careful and elaborate consideration by the House which had already assented to the principle of the measure as a whole. As to this Amendment, he founded himself on the legal maxim exclusio unius est inclusio alterius. If this Rule were passed, and went beyond excluding the traditional financial measures from the consideration of Grand Committees, it might be taken to involve that having specified those Bills all others were to go upstairs. That was not their intention, because they said that each Bill ought to be decided upon its merits. There might be Army Bills so exceedingly large and subversive of the existing condition of things that they ought to be considered in the House, but there might be others of such a slight character that they might not be excluded from the ordinary course. They must decide upon the merits of the case in each instance. It was said that that meant that the Government were to determine in each case, but he disclaimed the notion that their idea was to pass certain Bills which they liked. Let that be understood. Their object was to pass Bills with better consideration and greater speed than could be done at present; whether they regarded the Bills as good or bad did not enter into the matter at all. What he said was that the present system was cumbrous, slow, and ineffective. He had admitted from the first that this was a sweeping change. If it succeeded, as he hoped it would, and they had every reason to think it would, it would, he thought, make a great reform in the system of the House. It was not intended to, and he did not think it would, have the effect of benefiting one Party more than another. It was proposed merely to facilitate legislation and to assist the House in the discharge of its legislative duties. He had opposed all these special exceptions because if once, as he had said, they began to accept them they might exclude other matters which were as worthy of being excepted as those before them. He believed that it ought to be possible at the time for those best qualified to judge and who had the actual measures before them to say what the exceptions should be, but he thought it would be ill-advised

  809
  to lay down any hard and fast rule as to the Bills or clauses which were to be excluded from the operation of the Rule.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the right hon. Gentleman was not making the Standing Order for this Government only, but was making it in what he conceived to be the interests of legislation over a period of years. He had introduced it in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the present House of Commons, or in the interests of the majority of any other House of Commons. He could only express regret that the Prime Minister's passionate desire to see legislation expedited, even though it was of a kind with which he did not sympathise, did not find expression in the last two Parliaments. He did not recall any occasion, when the late Government were dealing with the Rules of Procedure or bringing in their Bills, on which the Prime Minister had expressed his passionate desire to facilitate legislation, even though he might not approve of it, provided it had secured the support of the majority of the House. If that were, as he did not doubt it to be, the object of the Prime Minister and the Government, it was not the object with which some supporters were supporting the new Rule. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy had frankly declared that his object was to pass Liberal legislation—Liberal in the Party sense; and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rushcliffe had said very much the same thing the other day. For his own part he desired to see the House more capable of directing its business than in the past when the legislation was supported by a great majority, and, at the same time, he thought hon. Gentlemen opposite were making a great mistake when they supposed that the Opposition did not wish to see legislation carried. In the past, when they commanded a majority, they had been active legislators, and they would be active legislators when they crossed the floor. Then no doubt they would reap any benefits which these Rules might give for the conduct of legislation through the House. It was not because these Rules facilitated legislation that he objected to them; it was because he thought that they would impede the proper consideration of legislation by the
  810
  House, and be used, as the Government had already expressed the intention of using them, and as other Governments would use them increasingly, to withdraw power and control from that House. So much for the latter portion of the Prime Minister's speech. His hon. friend beside him had at last succeeded in extracting from the Prime Minister the principle on which they proceeded in drafting their Standing Order. He founded himself upon the legal maxim, Exclusio unius est inclusio alterius. That would have been a good argument if the Prime Minister had not excluded the financial Bills in accordance with immemorial practice. What the right hon. Gentleman said now was that he had excluded them because they had always been exceptionally treated by the House. But the two things were not the same. It would be in accordance with immemorial practice not to send contentious Bills upstairs, but the Prime Minister said he did mean to send such measures upstairs. The Prime Minister excluded finance Bills because they had always been exceptionally treated; yes, but not on the Committee stage. The special treatment of finance Bills was merely, in fact, that they must be founded on Resolutions introduced in Committee of Ways and Means and reported to the House. The procedure on finance Bills was applicable to all Bills with italicised clauses in them. Accordingly the distinction which the Prime Minister had drawn to differentiate finance Bills from other Bills broke down, because it had no reference to the particular stage which they were engaged in discussing. The right hon. Gentleman founded himself on a maxim which proved their case, and, if they passed the Rule in its present form, they had no security, whatever might be the intentions of the present Government, that they would not in future have a wide extension of the practice of sending Bills upstairs, and he, for one thought it not only possible but probable that such an extension would be made. Their only safeguard, if they meant to protect the right of the House to discuss these Bills in Committee of the Whole House, was to say definitely that they should be retained, and to say it definitely, not only in the form of speeches or intentions expressed across the floor of the House, but by words inserted in the Standing Order.
  MR. EVANSsaid that, from the argument of the right hon. Gentleman, if the Amendment were incorporated, it would be necessary to incorporate also, as an Amendment, some thing to provide for every clause which it was thought necessary or desirable, on the other side of the House, should be dealt with in Committee of the Whole House. That was not the scheme of the Government. What they were casting about for was some device whereby the House of Commons might become a business assembly. It was not to take away from the House a privilege which it might have upon the Committee stage; it sought to relieve the House of that business stage on a Bill. The general scheme of the Rule was that the Committee stage should disappear as regarded many Bills which could be dealt with more effectively upstairs than in Committee of the Whole House. If the Government were to adopt any Amendment or suggestion such as that under consideration, it would be necessary to incorporate in the Rule every class of Bill which it was desired to keep in the House. Of course that would not be practicable. ["Why?"] He would tell them why. They had on the Paper at the present moment Amendments which would include all highly controversial Bills. Nobody yet understood how these four Grand Committees were going to work. Everybody knew that this was an experiment. The Prime Minister had already said that he believed the experiment would turn out to be a good one. It was in the recollection of everyone that changes in Procedure had always been objected to. There was always a conservative tendency in the House of Commons—he did not mean in the Party sense—which went against making any alteration in the Rules; but alterations had been made which had turned out to be good and effectual remedies for the stale of things against which they were aimed. He wanted to assume for the moment that this experiment of Grand Committees would turn out to be a good one. The Amendment before the House was to exclude expressly from the Rule a particular class of Bills.
  SIR E. CARSON: I would remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that it does not take away
  812
  the power to make a Motion to send the Bill upstairs.
  MR. EVANSwas not at all sure that the right hon. Gentleman was right, for the Rule said in terms that they must keep in the whole House a certain class of Bills; he assumed that was definite. If the plan turned out to be successful, as he believed it would, then the House ought to be free to let every Bill without exception go upstairs. It seemed to be forgotten that there would still remain to the House the various stages of a Bill—the First and Second Readings, the Report stage, and the Third Reading. In all conscience was not that enough for practical discussion? It was only in respect of details that the Committees would be employed. He did not say that his side of the House had been guiltless in the matter, but it was perfectly certain that the Committee stage in the House had been often used, not for the purpose of improving a Bill, not for the purpose of bringing to bear upon that stage the business faculty of the House,, but for the purpose of preventing the Bill from passing. It was to prevent a repetition of these things that this procedure had been proposed, and he was very glad that the Government were setting their face against all the exceptions which were proposed to be put into the Rule.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Gentleman had forgotten one thing. He had stated with perfect truth that the Committee stage had often been used in the past for the purpose of prolonging discussion. Nobody with any knowledge of the House of Commons denied that that had been the case in the past, or would doubt that analogous practices would be heard of in the future. But the hon. and learned Gentleman had made the great mistake of supposing that it could be avoided by withdrawing the details of Bills from the cognisance of the House. That was an impossible proceeding, and the Government, to do them justice, did not themselves contemplate it. They felt that the details must at one stage or another be thoroughly discussed, in the House, and they had by an Amendment on the Paper expressed their intention of making, at any rate, some approximation on the Report stage to the

  813
  freedom which was given on the Committee stage. The Prime Minister at an earlier period of the discussion had practically told the House that he meant to give full liberty on the Report stage. Therefore, they were all agreed that there must be a stage on every Bill in the House itself on which there could be ample discussion, and on which obstruction would be possible, and would, under certain circumstances, human nature being what it was, be practised. Nothing in the Rule would or could prevent that being done on one stage of the Bill, if the House of Commons had any control over the details of the measure- They were all agreed as to that. But they were all agreed, also, that there ought not to be two stages of the Bill in the House on which these practices could take place. He contended that limitations upon the powers of the House should be on the Report stage arid not on the Committee stage. They were all agreed that the House should retain the liberty of dealing with details which ought to be dealt with when the Government were in a position to make proper changes consequent upon discussion. In regard to the practice of sending Bills upstairs, they would find that instead of making the two stages supplement each other, what was done under the limitations of a Committee upstairs would often hamper the House in the work to be done on the Report stage. It could be shown with conclusive mathematical certainty that the manning of these Committees must be of an imperfect character, and even if it were perfect they would not carry authority. The result would be that the House would come fresh to the matter unfettered by anything which had been done upstairs, they would refuse to be bound by the decisions of the Standing Committees, and would refuse to allow the fact that the details, had been threshed out upstairs to diminish the discussion which they thought necessary downstairs. While he agreed that there should be some limitation to the double opportunity of dealing with the details of a Bill, they could not give that power without at the same time giving some opportunities for obstruction. The longer the discussion went on the more he was convinced that the Government had taken a wrong course in dealing
  814
  with the Committee stage in the way proposed. The proper course would have been to leave the House a reasonable liberty on the Committee stage, and cut down to the narrowest possible limits the power of spending time—and sometimes wasting it—upon the Report stage.
  SIR HENEY FOWLERsaid that one matter which had not been mentioned was even worse than obstruction, and that was that Bills had been and would be obstructed not on their merits or demerits but to prevent some other Bill being reached. They had to leave it to the House to decide whether the plan of the Government for dealing with the details through the machinery of Grand Committees should be more generally carried out, or whether they should still go on with the old system and either do away with the Report stage or reduce it to a very small truncated stage. They had been talking about grave constitutional changes which the House wanted to reserve power to deal with. He had no fear whatever upon that point, because he was satisfied that the House would take good care of itself and would not endeavour to carry through Grand Committee any Bill upon which public opinion had been strongly excited. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London in his evidence before the Committee upstairs said—
  "It seems to me that a great blot, the greatest of all blots, upon our procedure at this moment is the fact that session after session goes by, and Bills to which nobody, or, at any rate, very few really object on their merits are handed on from session to session, and perhaps from Government to Government, without becoming law. No political credit is to be got out of them, no Government gains by them or loses by them, and the only people who lose are the public or the public service; and the Opposition of the day, or a few individuals even on the Government side, are quite sufficient to stop those Bills from getting through, if they have to run the ordeal of the Committee stage, the Report stage, and all the rest of them."
  That was absolutely true. His opinion of these Rules was that they presented a reasonable prospect of dealing with Departmental Bills of the greatest importance to local and general administration which wore outside Party questions, and by which no Party gained or lost, although the public lost by their not being passed into law.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 113; Noes, 353. (Division List No. 122.)

  AYES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fell, Arthur

  Nield, Herbert

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  Percy, Earl

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Balfour, Rt. Hn A. J. (City Lond.)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

  Baring, Capt Hn G (Winchester

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Beach, Hn, Michael Hugh Hicks

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edmd's

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Starkey, John R.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick W m.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Liddell, Henry

  Thornton, percy M.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Long, Rt. H. Walter (Dublin, S.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cochrane, Hon. Thoss. H. A. E.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Chas, Curtis (Antrim, S.[

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Cross, Alexander

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Younger, George.

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Nicholson, W m. G. (Petersfield)

  Viscount Valentia.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bell, Richard

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Benn, Sir J. Williams Devonp'rt

  Byles, William Pollard

  Agnew, George William

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Cameron, Robert

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bennett, E. N.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Ambrose, Robert

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Armitage, R.

  Billson, Alfred

  Chance, Frederick William

  Armstrnog, W. C. Heaton

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Black, Arthur W.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Astbury, John Meir

  Boland, John

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Brace, William

  Clough, William

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Barker, John

  Branch, James

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrey, W.)

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Brigg, John

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Brodie, H. C.

  Collins, Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Cooper, G. J.

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Beale, W. P.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Mond, A.

  Cox, Harold

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Montagu, E. S.

  Crean, Eugene

  Higham, John Sharp

  Mooney, J. J.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Crombie, John William

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hodge, John

  Morse, L. L.

  Crossley, William J.

  Hogan, Michael

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Nicholls, George

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset,

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nuttall, Harry

  Delany, William

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St Pancras, N.

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Dowd, John

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Grady, J.

  Duckworth, James

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Jenkins, J.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Partington, Oswald

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Elibank, Master of

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Ellis Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Joyce, Michael

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Erskine David C.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Philipps, J. Wynford, Pembroke

  Essex, R. W.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Lambert, George

  Radford, G. H.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lamont, Norman

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Levy Maurice

  Rees, J. D.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lough, Thomas

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.

  Lundon, W.

  Richardson, A.

  Gilhooly, James

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Gill, A. H.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Ginnell, L.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

  Glover, Thomas

  Maclean, Donald

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott Bradford

  Grant, Corrie

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Robinson, S.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Gulland, John W.

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Callum, John M.

  Rowlands, J.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Crae, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Halpin, J.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Schwann, Duncan (Hyde)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Maddison, Frederick

  Scott, A. H. (Aston-under-Lyne

  Hart-Davis, T.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Sears, J. E.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Harwood, George

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Seddon, J.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston

  Seely Major J. B.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Shaw Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Massie, J.

  Shaw Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Meagher, Michael

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Menzies, Walter

  Sheehy, David.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Henry, Charles S.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  818

  819

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Weir, James Galloway

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Whitbread, Howard

  Snowden, P.

  Thorne, William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Tomkinson, James

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Toulmin, George

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Ure, Alexander

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Steadman, W. C.

  Vivian, Henry

  Wiles, Thomas

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Walsh, Stephen

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Summerbell, T.

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

  Winfrey, R.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wardle, George J.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Waring, Waiter

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackman'n)

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Tennant, H. J (Berwickshire)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  SIR GILBERT PARKERmoved an Amendment to exempt from the operation of the Standing Order Bills affecting the Constitution of any of the Colonies or their relations with this country. In spite of the fate of the previous Amendment he had still some hope that the Government would accept this Amendment. There had never been any great change in the Constitution of any Colony which had not been preceded by a long period of agitation. He instanced the cases of Canada and Australia, where the Colonies had had every opportunity of discussing constitutional changes from every standpoint many years before they were carried into effect. The proposals were thrashed out in presence of the public. Let them imagine a Bill for the federation of South Africa being brought to that House and being sent upstairs to a Committee. The Chancellor of the Duchy would say that the Government would naturally not send such a Bill upstairs. But the Government by their present action were putting bounds upon what might be called the liberties of private Members of the House, because in a Committee upstairs the whole House would not be represented. The Government in the proposed Standing Order said in effect: "Though Bills may go upstairs automatically, we reserve to ourselves the right to retain certain Bills, if we choose, for the consideration of the House in Committee." There were a great many in the House who thought that the power of the Executive was increasing beyond reason. To whatever Party the Government of the day might belong, he
  820
  thought it wholly unwise to allow it discretion to say whether Bills of this sort should be sent upstairs to the Grand Committees. As a matter of high constitutional procedure he thought it should be put on record that Bills dealing with the Constitution of the Colonies or the relations of the Colonies to the Mother Country should be reserved for the consideration of the Whole House. What would the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Colonies think if they were told that it was in the discretion of the Government in power in this country to send a Bill dealing with the Constitution of their own nation to a Commitee of eighty members upstairs, where the debates would not be reported, and where there would not be the same opportunity for the expression of divergent views as in that House? He thought that to leave this discretion to the Government of the day would be, though unintentional, an indignity to the Colonies. If the present Government would not send such Bills upstairs, did they trust future Governments not to do so? [An HON. MEMBER: Not if they are Tory.] The hon. Member below the gangway had helped him in his argument. He wanted to remove it from the discretion of any Government. We were in the fortunate position in this country of having an unwritten Constitution, but in the United States it would take seven or ten years to alter the Constitution. Bills might deal with matters vital to the welfare, the national life, and the future of the Colonies, and the House should allow no discretion whatever to the Government in such matters. If the

  821
  opinion of the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Colonies were asked, their reply would be in consonance with his own opinion, that questions affecting their Constitution should be reserved for the consideration of the Whole House. Bills vitally affecting the relations of this country with the Colonies should be put in that high treasury of procedure which reserved the consideration of such matters for the Whole House. He begged to move.
  *MR. REMNANTin seconding the Amendment, said he was afraid that the House would not accept it after the speech which the Prime Minister had made. The right hon. Gentleman had practically said that they must accept the proposed alterations as they stood, or leave them, for no Amendment moved on that side of the House would be acceptable to him or his Party. The right hon. Gentleman had forgotten what took place in the House in 1882, when Mr. Gladstone moved the appointment of two Standing Committees, one Bills relating to law and shipping, and the other for trade, commerce and manufactures Mr. Gladstone then stated that there must be some Bills dealing with Imperial Questions which it would be improper to refer to the Committees upstairs, and that ought to be retained for Committee of the Whole House. On that occasion Mr. Gladstone strongly deprecated any idea of forcing through the House by closure or otherwise any drastic changes in the Rules, and described such a course as "inexcusable and stupid." That was the very course which the Prime Minister was following that night. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Gravesend dealt with Bills affecting the constitution of the Colonies or their relations with this country.
  MR. AUSTIN TAYLORasked if the Amendment included Crown Colonies?
  *MR. REMNANTsaid he included the self-governing Colonies. The Colonies were not, at the time referred to, so strongly in the minds of the people of this country as they were to-day. In a speech made at the Colonial Conference the previous day one of the Premiers said that the sittings of the Conference should be held in public in order that a cor-
  822
  rect statement of its proceedings should be accessible to those who lived in the Colonies; but if the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman was carried out, and such Bills were sent to a Committee upstairs, there would be no authoritative report of the proceedings. Hon. Members know how difficult it was to find out any authoritative statement as to what had taken place in Committees upstairs, and those who lived in the Colonies would find still greater difficulty. He hoped that the House and the Government would acknowledge that this was a reasonable Amendment and accept it.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 10, at the end, to insert the words '(c) or Bills affecting the constitution of any of the Colonies or their relations with this country.'"—(Sir Gilbert Parker.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MAJOR SEELYmoved to insert in the Amendment after the word "their," the words "civil or military." If the Government had any intention of accepting the Amendment—and he supposed there could be no objection to that—he thought it would be better if the words he had suggested were added in order to emphasise the real reason for excluding this type of measure from being sent to a Grand Committee. It had occurred in the past that the lack of discussion on military proposals had caused difficulties in the Colonies. In Bills relating to civil and Army matters the fundamental difficulties only arose in Committee; a former Secretary for War had experience of that, the fact that the Colonial Premiers did not understand the details of the proposals made in Committee having led to some bitterness, or at any rate to some feeling. Speaking with great respect as one who had only seven years experience of the House, he thought it would be highly undesirable that an Army Bill should be discussed in Grand Committee, because all such Bills must affect all the Colonies in different degrees. It might be said that the Army Bill now before the House for the formation of a Territorial Army did not affect the Colonies, but it ultimately would have an influence on what the Colonies would do in regard to their Territorial Army. It

  823
  would be remembered that in 1902 the Colonial Premiers had never plainly realised the difficulties of the proposals which had been appealed to them. The one thing which had hindered our relations with the Colonies in the past had been not the lack of discussion, but the lack of publicity of that discussion.
  MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR,in seconding the Amendment, said he wished it had gone a little further. The hon. and gallant Member only proposed to insert the words "civil and military," but no one knew better than he the inter-dependence of the Naval and Military forces in the defence of the Colonies. He therefore suggested that his hon. and gallant friend should include "naval" as well as "civil and military" in his Amendment. He thought that in any discussions in the House affecting the defence of the Empire as a whole it was eminently desirable that the Bills should be discussed in Committee of the Whole House, and not in Committee up-stairs.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "After the word 'their,' to insert the words civil or military.'"—(Major Seely.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. LYTTELTONsaid he would have liked the Government to have replied to the arguments in favour of the Amendment from the Opposition side of the House and from two respected adherents of their own. For his own part he thought that the really important question was whether the exemptions from the Rule should be in matters affecting the relations of the Colonies with the Imperial Government. His hon. friend the Member for Gravesend had spoken of the years of agitation which had preceded the establishment of the Dominion of Canada and of the Commonwealth of Australia, and had dwelt on the effect that would have been produced in Canada and Australia if the Bills for constituting the Dominion and the Commonwealth had been discussed not in Committee of the Whole House, but in Committee upstairs, where the Colonies would not
  824
  have been able to obtain any detailed information on a subject which had engaged their interest for so many years. He agreed with the hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby Division that the really important matter was publicity. Let them take the analogous case of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council—a most august tribunal. How would that tribunal be regarded by our friends across the seas if they saw it in actual session? They would see a dusty room in which a few elderly gentlemen were gathered round a table. They would hear able arguments, but they would not consider that the great Imperial Court of the Empire was sufficiently august in appearance in dealing with matters which might affect them. Supposing an Australian were to visit this country at the time of the passage of a great constitutional measure affecting the colony, would he think it seemly or consistent with the dignity of the subject, to see a Bill which had exercised his country for five years being discussed and settled, practically irrevocably, in Committee-room No. 15 by thirty or forty Gentlemen, with no official report. That was not at all an imaginary picture by any means. Surely it would be deplorable that, while a cricket match would be reported at great length, through the cables, the details of a great constitutional measure affecting the Colonies should be relegated to a Committee upstairs.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he could not see that there was any case made out for the exemption of Colonial Bills, because if any serious matters arose those Bills would come within the category of Bills which the Government of the day were to consider as to whether they should stay in that House or go upstairs. He could not understand the complaint with regard to the want of publicity. At the present time the proceedings in Grand Committees were reported. Reporters were admitted, and the proceedings were reported if they were of public interest. With regard to the general question of reporting, it was a question for the Government to consider whether they ought not to have official reports of these Committees. There would doubtless be many occasions when it might be necessary to refer to what had taken place in the Committees; to what the Minister in charge of a Bill upstairs had

  825
  said; to what was actually done and what the issue was upon which a division was taken. It was well worth consideration, therefore, whether there ought not to be an official report of all the Grand Committees. He did not think this Amendment should be accepted.
  VISCOUNT HELMSLEYsaid he would not have intervened if the Government had taken the more usual course on these occasions of answering the arguments urged against them not only by the Opposition but by some of their own supporters. Had it not been for the statement of the Prime Minister that it was his intention not to accept any Amendment to the proposed Standing Orders, he could not have conceived that the Government would refuse this Amendment. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy had truly said that this Amendment was of no greater importance than other Amendments of a similar character which had been proposed. The astonishing thing to the Opposition was that the Prime Minister had not accepted the other important Amendments. The Government had great confidence in their own wisdom. That was a confidence which they could not expect the Opposition to share because it was not shared even by al members of the Government Party. The Opposition did, however, trust the Government in this matter. What they felt was that they could not say what the action of future Governments might be. The right hon. Gentleman might be able to pledge his Government not to send any Colonial Bill upstairs, but he could not pledge future Governments. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy had recently said that these Committees could not under any circumstances decide the fate of a Government. That would have to be decided later on when the question at issue came before the House on the Report Stage. If these Committees were incompetent to decide the fate of the Government, they were incompetent to deal with such important questions as were referred to in the Amendment.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid he had not thought it necessary to occupy time, because he had only the same Answer that he had given over and over again. The Government could not accept any additional exceptions to the Rule. They refused them all on the same ground, that, if they put in an exception of this sort, they implied that everything else was to go to the Standing Committee, without any alternative. What the Government said was that every question must be dealt with on its merits at the time. There might be many Bills which it would not be desirable to treat otherwise than in Committee of the Whole House. With regard to the picture conjured up by the ingenuity of the late Secretary of State for the Colonies of the New Zealander sitting on a broken arch of Westminster Bridge and viewing with contempt the shabby arrangements made for dealing with Bills from his own country, he need only point out that if there was any force in the consideration it would be for a future Government to give effect to it.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONasked for an Answer to the Question as to whether an official report would be made of the proceedings in the Committees and circulated in Hansard.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid that that had nothing to do with the Amendment.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he would accept the Amendment of his hon. friend.
  Proposed words there inserted in the proposed Amendment.
  Question put, "That those words, as amended, be there inserted."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 112; Noes, 327. (Division List No. 123.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F

  Ashley, W. W.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balcarres, Lord

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Arnold Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Jenkins, J.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Cave, George

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Starkey, John R.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Liddell, Henry

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S).

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-Lanark)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cross, Alexander

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Mild may, Francis Bingham

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Fell, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Peters field)

  Younger, George

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Nield, Herbert

  Forster, Henry William

  Parkes, Ebenezer'

  TELLERS FOB THE AYES,—

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Sir Gilbert Parker and Mr. Remnant.

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Percy, Earl

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Billson, Alfred

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Black, Arthur W.

  Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Boland, John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Alden, Percy

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bower man, C. W.

  Cox, Harold

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brace, William

  Crean, Eugene

  Armitage, R.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Branch, James

  Crombie, John William

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brigg, John

  Crossley, William J.

  Asquith, Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Astbury, John Meir

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Buck master, Stanley O.

  Davies M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Delany, William

  Barker, John

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dickson- Poynder, Sir John P.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Cameron, Robert

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Barnes, G. N.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Duckworth, James

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Duncan, C (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dunn, A. Edward (Cam borne)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Bell, Richard

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Eli bank, Master of

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Cleland, J. W.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Benn, W. (T' w' r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Clough, William

  Erskine, David C.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Essex, R. W.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Fenwick, Charles

  828

  829

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Ffrench, Peter

  Levy, Maurice

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richards, T. F. Wolverh'mpt'n

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Richardson, A.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lough, Thomas

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lundon, W.

  Roberts, G. H. Norwich)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Robinson, S.

  Gardner Col. Alan (Hereford, S.)

  Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Gilhooly, James

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rowlands, J.

  Gill, A. H.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Runciman, Walter

  Ginnell, L.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Glover, Thomas

  M'Crae, George

  Scars, J. E.

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Seddon, J.

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Maddison, Frederick

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Hall, Frederick

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Sheehy, David

  Halpin, J.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  Marks G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Massie, J.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Harrington, Timothy

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Meagher, Michael

  Snowden, P.

  Harwood, George

  Menzies, Walter

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mond, A.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Montagu, E. S.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Mooney, J. J.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Morse, L. L.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Myer, Horatio

  Summerbell, T.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Napier, T. B.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Newnes, F, (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Nicholls, George

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Hodge, John

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwiekshire)

  Hogan, Michael

  Nolan, Joseph

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Holt, Richard Burning

  Nuttall, Harry

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Ure, Alexander

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Dowd, John

  Verney, F. W.

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  O'Grady, J.

  Vivian, Henry

  Hyde, Clarendon

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Jackson, R. S.

  Partington, Oswald

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Wardle, George J.

  Jones, Leif (Appteby)

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Waring, Walker

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Joyce, Michael

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Watt, Henry A.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Weir, James Galloway

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Whitbread, Howard

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  White Patrick (Meath North)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Lambert, George

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Lamont, Norman

  Redmond John E. (Waterford)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Rees, J. D.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  830

  831

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Winfrey, R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  *EARL PERCYmoved the Amendment (standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Central Division of Hull) to except from the operation of the Rule Bills affecting the government and administration of India. The Prime Minister had stated so explicitly that he would accept no further exceptions to the Rule that he moved the Amendment with some hesitation. But he moved it with the object of obtaining some expression of opinion from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, who had been closely connected with the administration of India, as to the expediency or inexpediency of referring Indian Bills to the new Committees. There were circumstances which differentiated Bills affecting India from the kind of Bill the House had now been discussing. Nobody pretended that the legislative interests of India had suffered under the existing system. Secretaries of State for India had not been great legislators in the past, measures which had been recommended by the Indian Government had waited for sixty years before Secretaries of State had been found ready and willing to embody them in Bills. Bills affecting India were never controversial, at all events in a Party sense; any attempt to obstruct such Bills would be regarded as a scandal, and practically there was no difficulty, however late it was in the session, in getting these Indian Bills through the House and passed into law. In that respect they enjoyed exceptional facilities already. Moreover, India was not represented in the House, and the great advantage of discussions in Committee of the Whole House was that they got the benefit of the knowledge of those who were practically acquainted with the affairs of India from personal experience. Nothing could be more inappropriate than to send these Bills to a Committee upstairs, composed on a Party basis, where proceedings were not reported, or not reported fully, and where they had no absolute guarantee that they would secure the presence of those who were conversant with the problems involved. The withdrawal of Indian Bills from the House would constitute a serious departure from precedent, and would be understood in India, he thought, as
  832
  implying even greater impatience in that House of Indian affairs than was imputed to them at present. On these grounds he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would at all events make this one exception to the rule.
  Amendment proposed—
  ''In line 10, at the end, to insert the words, '(c) or Bills affecting the (Government and administration of India.'"—(Earl Percy.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  *SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid the Prime Minister had already stated the intention of the Government to allow no exception whatever. The question as to whether a Bill should be referred to a Standing Committee or to the Whole House would have to be settled on its own merits. The Secretary of State for the time being would be the best judge as to whether there should be any departure from the ordinary course of procedure. Legislation with respect to India was exceedingly limited. With one exception in the last ten years Indian business had consisted of financial arrangements for the issue of loans and other matters, which had been very fully discussed in the House, but by a very limited number of Members. There would be no injury done to India by this Rule. The Government could not consent to any exception. Each question must be dealt with at the time, and in the circumstances of the time, having regard to the opinion of the House and of the country.
  Question put, and negatived.
  SIR E. CARSONthen moved to add the words "Where a Bill has been committed under the foregoing provision of this Standing Order, a Member shall have the same right of speaking on the consideration of the Report of such Committee as if the Bill was before a Committee of the Whole House." He regretted exceedingly, he said, that the Prime Minister, through no fault of his own, was unable to be present while he dealt with this Amendment Anybody who had followed the

  833
  course of the proceedings upon these Procedure Resolutions would not wonder that he moved this Amendment, nor could he help expressing considerable regret at the way in which the Prime Minister had acted in reference to the question. When he was in the House yesterday he heard the Leader of the Opposition challenge the Prime Minister directly with an absolute breach of faith in connection with this Amendment, and from that time to this the Prime Minister had never denied the charge. That was not a pleasant state of things to exist. He did not mind so much that the right hon. Gentleman had never denied the charge, but he thought that he might at least have given some explanation of the course he had taken. Whether they would have an explanation he did not know, but at all events he did not think that they would have it from the Prime Minister himself. So far as he was concerned he would have preferred that anything unpleasant which he had to say should have been said in the presence of the Prime Minister rather than in his absence. His Amendment was a perfectly plain and distinct one, and had exactly the same meaning to-day that it had on Thursday. He would add that anything that he might say would have the same meaning to-morrow that it had to-day. It was a cheap way of getting rid of Amendments to make promises when those promises were not kept. It was, after all, only a difference, as had been pointed out, between a statement and an intention; but he would be able to show that they had both the statement and the intention. The necessity for the Amendment arose from the fact that everybody admitted that the House on some stage of a Bill ought to have absolutely free discussion as to its details, and it was with a view to obtaining that discussion that he had put down his Amendment; and he believed it was with that view that the Prime Minister originally accepted it. He appealed to the generosity of the Government, which they knew to be one of their supremest qualities, to inform them as to the manner in which these Committees would work as regarded the minority, which was of very small proportions at the present time. He knew that some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen thought that the smaller the minority the more they ought
  834
  to be gagged. On some of the Committees the minority would not be able to be represented at all, or at any rate very inadequately. If that was so, surely there was all the more reason that when a measure came from Committee to the House, they should have an opportunity of discussing it just as if the Committee Rules applied. He believed that any Members who had taken part in Committee work would agree that the way in which the House and country got educated in the details and real effect of any Bill was by discussions in Committee. If the House was not satisfied with his statement on that point he could refer them to the statement of the Prime Minister on Thursday last. He did not want to take out of the speech of the Prime Minister anything that was not in it. The Prime Minister said—
  "There was an Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, which said:—'Where a Bill has been committed under the foregoing provision of this Standing Order a Member shall have the same right of speaking on the consideration of the Report of such Committee as if the Bill was before a Committee of the Whole House.'"
  Then the Prime Minister went on to say—
  "That would give the House in the case of a Bill considered upstairs the power to discuss it as if they were in Committee. Without binding himself to the exact words of this Amendment, the Government were perfectly willing to accept it in spirit."
  The spirit of that Amendment was that the right hon. Gentleman would give the House in the case of a Bill considered upstairs the power to discuss it as if they were in Committee. Proceeding, the right hon. Gentleman said—
  "Therefore there ought not to be so much apprehension as there appeared to be that the Government wished to impose undue restrictions to the powers of the House itself."
  Later on in the debate the Prime Minister said—
  "While all other Amendments of the kind were to be rejected, his Amendment he was prepared to accept."
  The Prime Minister made that statement after fuller consideration, and later on he stated that—
  "He had already said that the Government would enlarge the liberties and privileges of Members on the Report stage."

  835
  Had the Prime Minister accepted the spirit of his Amendment? He had provided that two Members of the House should have the right to discuss a Bill as if they were in Committee. It was probably a terminological inexactitude in which the right hon. Gentleman used the word "House" as meaning two Members of it. He denied that that was accepting the spirit of his Amendment. On the contrary it was killing the spirit, and leaving them a mere corpse. The facts were there recorded, and he would await with interest the explanation. The Prime Minister, referring to himself in the course of the debate, stated that he could not understand the ingratitude of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin in not rising at once and proclaiming how pleased he was that he should be honoured by the Prime Minister, and singled out as one whose Amendment would be accepted. He congratulated himself upon possessing in this case a prophetic instinct that it would be far better to wait for the performance of Liberal promises before expressing gratitude for them. He ventured to say that in the annals of their debates the right about-face of the Prime Minister upon this question was almost unparalleled. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 10, at the end, to insert the words, 'Where a Bill has been committed under the foregoing provision of this Standing Order, a Member shall have the same right of speaking on the consideration of the Report of such Committee as if the Bill was before a Committee of the Whole House.'"—(Sir E. Carson.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. MCKENNAsaid the right hon. Gentleman, who knew that the report he had read was a most incomplete and inadequate statement of the speech of the Prime Minister, had chosen to base himself upon some garbled extracts, which were not, in fact, the whole of the reported speech, in order to substantiate this very absurd charge of breach of faith. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh."] The right hon. Gentleman was in the House when the Prime Minister made that speech, and he must have heard every word of it.
  SIR E. CARSONsaid he quoted from three speeches, and he heard two of them delivered.
  MR. MCKENNAsaid that at any rate the right hon. Gentleman heard the Prime Minister use his arguments in favour of accepting his Amendment in spirit. The argument which the Prime Minister used was that very strong objection had been taken by the Leader of the Opposition to the fact that if a Bill was discussed in the House only on Report, the Minister in charge would be under great disadvantage if he were not allowed to speak twice. The Prime Minister could not, on that Amendment, elaborate the argument for or against the words put forward by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. But his right hon. friend threw out as an offer to hon. Gentlemen opposite, basing himself on the views of the Leader of the Opposition, that he would accept in principle the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. If his memory served him right, the Prime Minister went further than that, and referred to the fact that during the Committee stage of a Bill it was very rare indeed that a private Member, unless it happened to be the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, desired to speak more than once. That was the view of the Prime Minister, and certainly he had that in view when he spoke of accepting the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Member opposite in principle. What had the Prime Minister done? The fact was that the argument of the Leader of the Opposition in favour of the Minister in charge speaking twice was a very powerful one. The Prime Minister had also in mind the fact that the mover and seconder of an Amendment were very often placed at a disadvantage, if they were dealing with a complicated and difficult matter, in not being able to speak more than once, especially if the Minister in charge of the Bill gave a perfunctory answer without dealing with the merits of the case. It might also be that in such a case it was only the mover of the Amendment who had sufficient knowledge to inform the House that the reply given was insufficient, and it was necessary that he should be able to speak a second time. Those were the views of the Prime Minister, and these were the only cases which had to be met. [OPPOSITION

  837
  cries of "No, no."] He challenged any hon. Member opposite who had had experience of the protracted Committee stages of Bills in the House to deny the accuracy of his statement when he said that it was a rare occurrence that any hon. Member desired or attempted to speak more than once during the discussion of an Amendment on the Report stage. That was a matter of fact which could easily be fortified by a reference to the debates. He had had ten years experience in the House, and his statement was justified by that experience. The Prime Minister, desirous of meeting the views of hon. Members opposite and of meeting the particular difficulties of the case, did make the promise, and he submitted to the House that the right hon. Gentleman had fulfilled that promise in the most complete form. [OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite need not imagine that they were to be moved by those shouts of "Oh." He remembered that in the last Parliament if any argument was raised on the opposite side of the House which could get no answer from the Government, the Prime Minister of the day used to come down and charge hon. Members on the Opposition side with making a personal imputation on the honour of Members. Now that hon. Gentlemen were themselves sitting on the Opposition side the tune was different. Now they had constant allegations of breach of faith. Neither one statement nor the other had the slightest foundation in fact. When hon. Gentlemen were bankrupt in argument there was nothing to rely on except these absurd charges. [Cries of "Oh."] On the merits of the proposal of the right hon. and learned Gentleman it was obvious that it went much beyond the needs of the case. What was proposed by the Prime Minister provided that the mover of an Amendment and the Member in charge of a Bill should have the right to speak as if they were in Committee of the Whole House. He thought sufficient had been done to meet the necessities of the case. The Prime Minister had not only fully carried out the promise which he made, but he had gone further and introduced the Amendment in a form which would be most satisfactory in the working of the Rules of the House.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had misrepresented, unintentionally what occurred the other night; he had misrepresented what occurred in the last Parliament. He never recollected a case, which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think Occurred so frequently, in which he was charged with breach of faith, and he certainly remembered no case in which that charge could properly be made. Whenever there was, as was inevitable, an occasion of misunderstanding between the two sides of the House, his invariable practice was to give way on the point, because he thought that nothing was worse for the House than that doubt should arise on the assurances given by Ministers with regard to the conduct of business. Those were not the principles of the present occupants of the Treasury Bench. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Withdraw."] They were not the principles on what that bench now acted. The thing was really beyond dispute. It must be remembered that in the fullest and most explicit manner he stated, yesterday, exactly what their feeling was upon this point, and the grounds which justified that feeling. The Prime Minister had an opportunity of replying, of making a personal explanation if he wished to do so, of giving an answer in the ordinary course of debate, and he remained silent. And if he had nothing better to say than what had just been said on his behalf by the Minister for Education, he was bound to say he thought the Prime Minister was well advised. He pointed out yesterday that, not only had they on that side of the House taken the obvious view of the Prime Minister's promise, but that his own supporter in the person of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy had also taken the same obvious view.
  MR. MCKENNA: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to my hon. friend the Member for Kirkcaldy. He probably has forgotten the fact that the Prime Minister was not in the House when my hon. friend spoke.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was right in his recollection or not, but it did not touch the essence of his argument. The point of

  839
  his argument was that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy represented many of the supporters of the Prime Minister, and when they had this universal recollection of what the Prime Minister said, and they had that recollection confirmed by the reports in the Press the next day, what was in the use of trying to gloss over as the right hon. Gentleman tried to gloss over, the real purport of the Prime Minister's statement? The Prime Minister's pledge went far beyond that of dealing with the particular argument he had put forward as to the unfair position in which the Minister in charge of a Bill was placed on the Report stage, and the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment now on the Paper went beyond dealing with that argument. But he frankly admitted that it was not so much with the merits or demerits of the Amendment as with the pledge that the Prime Minister gave that he was concerned, and nobody who heard his successive speeches would have the hardihood to get up and say that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, that his right hon. friend near him, and that he himself were all wrong in their recollection of what that pledge was.
  MR. EVERETTsaid that he heard the Prime Minister's speech and the speech of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, and he felt very strongly that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy was exaggerating very greatly what the Prime Minister said.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURasked whether the hon. Member did not hear the Prime Minister say quite distinctly that he was going to give the Members of the House the privileges on Report that they possessed in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman said so. [An HON. MEMBERS "No."] He heard him say go; the right hon. Gentleman was reported in The Times to have said so, and he did not believe it was open to, or capable of, doubt.
  MR. MCKENNA: The words are not quite that.
  MR A. J. BALFOURreplied that, in the first speech, which, he supposed, was the most operative one, the Prime Minister, after quoting the words of his
  840
  right hon. and learned friend's Amendment, said—
  "That would give the House, in the case of a Bill considered upstairs, the power to discuss it as if they were in Committee."
  Therefore, the Prime Minister knew exactly what the proposition said and what was the spirit of it, the spirit of his own definition, and he went on to say—
  "Without binding himself to the exact words of this Amendment, the Government were perfectly willing to accept it in spirit."
  The right hon. Gentleman spoke at least twice after that, and he made no qualification of that statement. Why, even the present Government would hang a criminal on that evidence. What influence had made the Prime Minister go back on this clear and undoubted statement he could not imagine, but he ventured to think that it would be to the credit of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and in accordance with the best traditions of the management of business in the House, and of the highest traditions of Parliamentary practice and principle, if they retraced the step so hastily made, and did that now which only last Thursday the Prime Minister so clearly and explicitly told the House it was his intention to do.
  SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid he was present in the House and had a conversation with the Prime Minister before his right hon. friend made the speech referred to. The Prime Minister referred to the speech which the Leader of the Opposition had made, and said to him that the argument in that speech had made a very great impression upon him, and that he found a great deal of force in it. Unfortunately the Prime Minister could not be present just then, and the Government had anticipated that this Amendment would have come on much earlier in the afternoon. He would, however, read to the House what was the argument of the Leader of the Opposition that had left an impression on the Prime Minister's mind. The right hon. Gentleman said—
  "I have had a long and painful experience of carrying controversial Bills through the House, and if the Committee will allow me I will explain exactly where I think the difficulty would occur on the Report stage. A Member gets up and moves an Amendment; possibly he may not be a very experienced Parliamentarian, not improbably he may not know the full strength of the case which may be made

  841
  for his Amendment. Now the House always insists that as soon as an Amendment is moved or, at any rate, very soon after an Amendment is moved, the Member of the Government in charge of the Bill, or one of his colleagues, shall get up and say what line the Government mean to take upon it. Now, if the Member in charge of the Bill knows his business he will not make a longer or more elaborate reply than the case so far made in the House seems to warrant. He probably knows that a great deal more may be said in favour of the Amendment than has been said; but he would be foolish if he suggested these new topics for discussion. He always hopes (sometimes against hope) that the real importance of the matter will escape his critics, and he frames his answer so as to be adequate, but not more than adequate, to the case that has been made. On the Report stage, when he has done that, he has exhausted his right of speaking. Then somebody else gets up on the other side of the House, who makes the case which ought to have been made, but was not made at first. The attack develops along the whole line; and the unfortunate Minister in charge of the Bill, although by the courtesy of the House he is sometimes allowed to speak again, always speaks again under the greatest difficulty, because it would be very bad taste to introduce the smallest controversial aspect into a speech which is only made by favour, and not by right. The briefest indication of his real reply is all he feels entitled to give. It is quite true that in the case of a difficult Bill the Minister in charge has aids and assistants, and they can do something to help him, but I believe that difficult Bill can only be steered by one man, and that though the assistance he gets is very important, the responsibility rests upon the Minister really in charge of the Bill, who knows what has been said, who understands the temper of the House, who is prepared to make concessions, if they have to be made, and who knows how far they can be made without damaging the principle of the Bill. To limit that Minister in the extraordinarily difficult situation which may arise on a controlled Bill to a single opportunity of expressing his views upon each Amendment is really to put him in an impossible position. I would go the length of saying that if you are really going to send controversial Bills up to Grand Committees, and therefore compel them to be fully discussed when they come down on the Report stage, you must make an exception in favour of the Member, be he Minister or be he private individual, who is in charge of the Bill, and allow him to speak twice."
  That was the contention of the Leader of the Opposition which had impressed the Prime Minister's mind, and his right hon. friend asked him if there was any objection to meeting that case. The Prime Minister said to him—and he thought that the right hon. Gentleman also said it to the House—that without pledging himself to any particular form of words he accepted that principle. [Cries of "In spirit."] The spirit was expressed in the words which he had
  842
  quoted, and which the Prime Minister himself had quoted. The House was very jealous of strict faith being kept in such matters; but this was not in the nature of a transaction across the floor of the House. It was a voluntary statement made by the Prime Minister and was in no sense a bargain. What was in the Prime Minister's mind was that when the Report stage was reached on a vital question the Minister in charge was put to a great disadvantage by being allowed to speak only once. This Amendment was calculated to give the Minister or Prime Minister an opportunity of speaking more than once, and the Member who moved the Amendment to speak more than once. He very much regretted the absence of the Prime Minister, who had expected this question to come on much earlier, and he was surprised to hear what had been said about his absence.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yesterday.
  *SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid two right hon. Gentlemen opposite had used language which he thought they all knew that the Prime Minister did not deserve. [Some OPPOSITION cries of "No."] The hon. Member said "No," but the House of Commons was proud of the Prime Minister, and "breach of faith" were very ugly words. There must be two parties to a breach of faith, but there was no second party in this case. Although he felt very jealously for the Prime Minister, he believed that there had been a misconception in the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and he very much regretted that this discussion had taken place.
  MR. LYTTELTONsaid that, as one who had a profound concern for the dignity and honour of the House and for good fellowship between the two sides of the House, which had considerably increased since the meeting of this Parliament, he wished to put one consideration to right hon. Gentlemen opposite. He and his friends were perfectly ready to accept the explanation which had been given of the intention of the Prime Minister; but the point was not what was the intention of the Prime Minister in his discussions with his colleagues, but what were his words used in the House, what was the impression he conveyed to

  843
  the House, and what was understood by the House on both sides. The Prime Minister was most unhappily obscure in his expression and statement of his case. It could not be denied that in substance—for he did not wish to quibble about words—the Prime Minister promised that the House should enjoy the same privileges on Report as in Committee. Would any hon. Gentleman say that that was not a plain and reasonable interpretation of his words? He might not have meant it, but he said it.
  MR. EVERETT: Most certainly he did not say that.
  MR. MCKENNA: I say that too; he did not quite say it.
  MR. LYTTELTONsaid that the Minister for Education declared that the Prime Minister did not quite say it, but he said it in as plain words as could be, and it was so accepted by Members universally on that side of the House and by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy. Let him put the matter plainly to hon. Members. It was granted that the Prime Minister should be absolved from any intention to deceive the House in making that statement, and he absolved him from any breach of faith in the matter. But what was the position now, when the Members of the Government present knew in the absence of the Prime Minister that the words which the right hon. Gentleman used in point of fact had the effect of deceiving the Opposition? Knowing that, would they not make themselves guilty of a breach of faith if they persisted in the course of conduct which they were pursuing? A man might say a rash thing which he could not afterwards justify, but after the full consequences of the words used by the Prime Minister had been pointed out, and when not a single Member, even on the other side of the House, could say that it was not a reasonable interpretation which they placed on them, for the Government to insist upon taking advantage of that which the Opposition conceded as the result of the speech was to be guilty of conduct which showed that an attempt was being made to act unreasonably in regard to a statement which did in point of fact deceive Members on that side of the House.
  844
  According to the best traditions of the House the Government ought not to persist in retaining an advantage so secured.
  MR. EVANSsaid he was very glad that he was not in the House when the Prime Minister made his speech, and therefore he could not indulge in references to what were the Prime Minister's exact words, but he did very much regret that the time of the House had been taken up for an hour or so in bandying across the floor charges and accusations which in private life not one of the speakers would have ventured to make against the Prime Minister. In his opinion the House was not at its best when the Leader of the Opposition in a fierce tone and on an occasion of this kind threw out a charge against the Prime Minister, that he was guilty not of having made a mistake, not of a mistaken apprehension, but of a breach of faith, which charge had been repeated in a much milder tone by the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. The last speaker had indeed said that, not only was the Prime Minister guilty of a breach of faith, but Members on that side were also guilty of a breach of faith in supporting the Government in their present attitude. He was perfectly certain that if the Prime Minister had been there and had got up and said that he did not remember the exact words he used, or that he did not think he used the words which were attributed to him, or that he was not correctly reported, or that they did not convey the impression which was in his mind, the whole of this discussion would have been avoided. His supporters who believed in the Prime Minister and were very much attached to his personality resented these accusations. It was, of course, a great pity that the Prime Minister was not there to meet the allegations which had been made and to explain the passage which had been mentioned. But surely it was enough for the colleagues of the Prime Minister who were in his confidence, and who knew the communications passing between one Minister to another, to get up and say in the House that the Prime Minister never intended to give such a pledge at all. He was quite sure that in private life, or even in the lobby, if a misunderstanding of the kind occurred, the moment it was explained that it was not intended to

  845
  state what was then contended for, the parties would shake hands and there would be an end of the matter. That was why he was very pleased that he did not hear the speech of the Prime Minister, because it enabled him to bring an open mind to bear on the subject. He was not present when the speech was made, and, like the Leader of the Opposition, he hardly ever opened a newspaper, but he had heard the extract from the report in The Times read in the House. The Times, of course, was the newspaper which reported the Parliamentary debates host of all among the newspapers, and everyone would admit how marvelously accurate the reports were considering the amount of condensation that the reporters had to carry out. But The Times newspaper was not infallible, and from the report of The Times it was clear that the Prime Minister by using the phrase "without binding myself to the exact words" of the Amendment said he would meet it in the spirit. That being so he should have thought that what he authorised his colleagues there to state would have been amply sufficient to satisfy hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. He would like to turn the current of the discussion from that particular topic which was not decisive of any principle before the House. He regretted that the Leader of the Opposition had been unwilling to grant the Ministerial Bench the same adherence to political principle as that which the right hon. Gentleman himself had formerly claimed, and to stick up for the honour and influence of Parliament in the carrying on of business. He thought that the Amendment went too far, although there was a great deal to be said for the view put forward by the Chancellor of the Duchy. The Amendment not only gave a right of reply to a Minister in charge of a Bill, but it gave a great deal more. It made it possible that every Member should speak as often as he liked. He thought it was undesirable that a Member should be able to speak on the Report stage as often as he could speak in Committee. The tendency of late years had been to move on Report practically every Amendment which was moved in Committee, and the only difference was that Members could speak but once. He thought in the interests of business that
  846
  to have the debate in Committee repeated on the Report stage, and to give the right of unlimited speech to every Member was undesirable.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he could not allow the speech of the hon. Gentleman to pass without comment. The hon. Member had made a personal appeal in regard to the acceptance or not of the word of a Minister of the Crown. No one challenged any statement made either by the Prime Minister or on his authority as to the intentions he meant to convey to the House. But the point was that the right hon. Gentleman did convoy something different from the words that were used. The Hansard Report—a proof of which he had in his hand—bore out The Times report, confirming and corroborating it; and their contention was that if the Prime Minister used the wrong words and created the wrong impression the error should have been corrected on the spot. One of the phrases used was that—
  "The terms of the Amendment might be improved, but the Government were perfectly willing to accept the spirit of the Amendment."
  Then the Leader of the Opposition pointed out that it was evident the Report stage would become the Committee stage, so that the misapprehension of the Prime Minister's intention was patent the moment that the right hon. Gentleman sat down. The statement was repeated by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy after the Prime Minister had left the House, but in the presence of the President of the Board of Education. Yet neither the Prime Minister nor the President of the Board of Education took the trouble to correct the prevailing misapprehension. The intentions of Ministers could only be judged by their public statements, and if these public statements gave colour to a false impression they ought to be corrected at the earliest opportunity.
  MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid, with reference to the contention of the President of the Board of Education that it was a rare thing for Members not in charge of a Bill or of an Amendment to speak more than once in Committee on a single question, that he found on referring to a volume of Hansard which he had taken at random—that for 4th to 19th November,

  847
  1902, and covering only a fortnight of Parliamentary time—that in the debates on the Education Bill of that year recorded in that volume there were three interesting instances of Members of the Party opposite speaking more than once in Committee. Those were the cases of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean (at page 162), the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (at page 434), and the right hon. Gentleman himself, the President of the Board of Education (at page 179).
  And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.

  LONDON PORT AND DOCKS BILL (BY ORDER).
  Second Reading deferred without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 15th April, till Monday 22nd April, at a quarter-past Eight o'clock.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (PROCEDURE).
  Postponed Proceeding on Amendment to Question. "(1) When a Bill has been read a second time it shall stand committed to one of the Standing Committees, unless the House, on Motion to be decided without Amendment or debate, otherwise order, and such a Motion shall not require notice, must be made immediately after the Bill is read a second time, may be made by any Member, and may, though opposed, be decided after the expiration of the time for opposed business. But this Order shall not apply to (a) Bills for imposing taxes, or Consolidated Fund or Appropriation Bills; or (b) Bills for confirming Provisional Orders. (2) The House may, on Motion made by the Member in charge of a Bill, commit the Bill to a Standing Committee in respect of some of its provisions, and to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of other provisions. If such a Motion is opposed, the Speaker, after permitting, if he thinks fit, a brief explanatory statement from the Member who makes and
  848
  from the Member who opposes the Motion, shall without further debate put the Question thereon."—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Which Amendment was—
  "In line 10, at the end, to insert the words, 'Where a Bill has been committed under the foregoing provision of this Standing Order, a Member shall have the same right of speaking on the consideration of the Report of such Committee as if the Bill was before a Committee of the Whole House,'" resumed.
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  LORD R. CECILsaid he was perfectly amazed at the attitude of the Government. Outside the walls of Parliament this matter would have been settled in two minutes by the Minister in charge admitting at once that there had been a misunderstanding and that, of course, the Government would fulfil to the letter whatever they were thought to have pledged themselves to. If the business of the House was conducted on the theory it was professed to be conducted upon, that all hon. Members were honest men and honestly stated their views, Members on the other side of the House were bound to take the view that the Opposition honestly believed the Prime Minister had pledged himself to accept in its sense, if not in the wording, the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Member for the Dublin University. For the Government to stand up and say they were not going to give way in the least was a perfect scandal in Parliamentary life. He did not agree that this was not an important matter; it might not be important in point of time, but it was in the point of view of those who took part in debate. Nobody could say that such an arrangement as that of the Government was fair. Whether they were right or wrong there was a strong feeling on the Opposition Benches that the Government did not adhere very rigidly to their pledges. This was not the first time that they thought the Government had said one thing and done another, but this was the worst case because it was the clearest. Was it not better that the point should be conceded? Was it not a matter of vital importance that there should not be a general impression on

  849
  the Opposition side of the House that the Government did not treat the Opposition fairly; that they did not stick to their pledges with the rigid and absolute integrity which the House had a right to expect? He ventured to hope that the division would not be taken under that impression. If it was, its effect would be felt for many sessions to come.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid he was present during the remarks made by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and those made by the Prime Minister, and there could not be the slightest doubt that when the Prime Minister got up, he made a graceful allusion to the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University, and said he wished to make friends with the mammon of unrighteousness. He then said he was prepared to accept the Amendment standing in the right hon. Gentleman's name, and that he was surprised the right hon. Gentleman had made an attack on the Government when he intended to accept the Amendment but without pledging himself to the exact words. The interpretation always placed on such a statement was that the spirit and intention of the Amendment would be accepted. The proof of Hansard in the hands of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer conclusively proved that the impression in their minds to-night was in the Prime Minister's mind. If, therefore, there was a misunderstanding, why did not the Prime Minister get up and correct the false impression that was abroad? Nothing then occurred until, after the intervention of two or three speakers, the Prime Minister left the House, and the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy got up and complained that the Prime Minister had given away his new Rule by accepting the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University. Why then did not the President of the Board of Education get up and contradict that?
  MR. MCKENNA: It would have been out of order.
  SIR F. BANBURY: The right hon. Gentleman could have put up somebody else to do so.
  MR. MCKENNA: The whole discussion was out of order.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid that that was a matter for Mr. Speaker to decide, but many times in his experience hon. and right hon. Gentlemen had contravened the rules in order to correct a misapprehension. When he later on went into the lobby, and the right hon. Member for Dublin University was congratulating himself in having got his Amendment accepted, he expressed the opinion to his right hon. friend that the hon. Member for the Kirkcaldy Burghs had put a spoke in his wheel; that the Government, having now found that they had made a mistake, would go back on their word. If the Government would only admit that they had made a mistake, they would at least show that they had the courage of their convictions; but they had refused to do that, and tried to make out that they meant something entirely different.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that, having heard what was stated in the debate yesterday, he desired to confirm the observations made by the hon. Member for the City of London. It seemed to him that, if there was no Amendment of the nature of that which was now before the House, or none such as had been suggested in the name of the Prime Minister, which, he presumed, was initiated to carry out the pledge that they understood had been given to them, it was clear that upon Report there would be the same proceedings as took place now. If it was desired, in consideration of the Committee Stage having been sent upstairs, to give some extra privileges to Members upon Report, it was a most astonishing way of giving those extra privileges simply to give them to the Government and the mover of the Motion. It was taking away a constitutional privilege from every Member of the House. It was not at present possible for the Government, any more than a private Member, to speak twice on a Motion or Amendment on Report. But to give that additional voice and right to speak to the Government of the day was to his mind, instead of making a concession to Members of the House, doing exactly the opposite, and placing them in a worse position than they would otherwise occupy. He was one of those who felt exceedingly the way in which they had been treated. There was not the slightest

  851
  doubt that they had all been led to believe that the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin was going to be accepted. They were distinctly told so twice by the Prime Minister; they all thought so; the Member for Kirkcaldy thought so. Now they learned that the Amendment was not only not going to be accepted, but that they were actually going to be placed in a worse position upon Report than they would be in if
  there was no Amendment at all. He thought it was rather a shocking state of affairs, and one which called for protest on the part of any Member who felt that statements, offers, or pledges given in the House ought to be carried out to the letter.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 83; Noes, 290. (Division List No. 124.)

  AYES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn Hugh O.

  Fell, Arthur

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Ashley, W. W.

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Rawlinson, Jn. Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Haddock, George R.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hunt, Rowland

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cave, George

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Warde, Col. C E. (Kent, Mid)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Younger, George

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Morpeth, Viscount

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Benn, Sir J. Williams Devonp'rt

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Alden, Percy

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Billson, Alfred

  Clough, William

  Armitage, R.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Boland, John

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brace, William

  Collins, Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Brigg, John

  Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Barker, John

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Barlow, John. Emmott (Somerset

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Cowan, W. N.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Cox, Harold

  Barnard, E. B.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Crean, Eugene

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Crombie, John William

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Cross, Alexander

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Byles, William Pollard

  Crossley, William J.

  Bell, Richards

  Cameron, Robert

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Bellaira, Carlyon

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Joyce, Michael

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Delany, William

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Devlin, Joseph

  King, Alfred John (Knatsford)

  Rea, Russell (Gloncester)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Lamont, Norman

  Rees, J. D.

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Loose, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Duckworth, James

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Richardson, A.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Levy, Maurice

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Lewis John Herbert

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Lough, Thomas

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  London, W.

  Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradf'rd

  Elibank, Master of

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Robinson, S.

  Erskine, David C.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Essex, R. W.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Rose, Charles Day

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Macnnmara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rowlands, J.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Sehwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Fenwick, Charles

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  Scott, A. H. (Ashtonnnder Lyne

  Ferens, T. R.

  M'Crae, George

  Sears, J. E.

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Seddon, J.

  Findlay, Alexander

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  M'Killop, W.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  M'Laren, H, D. (Stafford, W.)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Sheey, David

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Maddison, Frederick

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Gardner, Col, Alan (Hereford, S.)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gilhooly, James

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Gill, A. H.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Ginnell, L.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launcesston)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Glover, Thomas

  Marnham, F. J.

  Snowden, P.

  Gulland, John W.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Massie, J.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Meagher, Michael

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Hall, Frederick

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Halpin, J.

  Menzies, Walter

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendall)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss- sh

  Montagu, E. S.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Mooney, J. J.

  Summerbell, T.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Morse, L. L.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Harwood, George

  Myer, Horatio

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Napier, T. B.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Nicholls, George

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset E

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nicholson, ('has. N. (Dommst'r

  Tomkinson, James

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Nolan, Joseph

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Norton, Capt, Cecil William

  Ure, Alexander

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Vivian, Henry

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Walsh, Stephen

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Brian, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Wardle, George J.

  Hogan, John

  O'Dohsrty, Philip

  Waring, Walter

  Hogan, Michael

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Dowd, John

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Grady, J.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  O'Mara, James

  Weir, James Galloway

  Hudson, Walter

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Partington, Oswald

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Whitley John Henry (Halifax

  Jenkins, J.

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Cann'rth'n

  Jowett, F. W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  854

  855

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Winfrey, R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOBS—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  MR. FELL,in moving an Amendment to the effect that the Rule should not apply to Bills referred to in the Speech from the Throne at the commencement of the session, said the great distinction between this and other proposals to except Bills from the Rule was that it got rid of the difficulty, which was bound to arise in every case, of ascertaining what the nature of the Bills was. The Amendment made the matter perfectly clear, and there could be no dispute, when it came to a particular Bill, as to whether it was to remain in the House or be sent upstairs. The Government proposed to except Money Bills and Bills of a highly contentious character and the most important Bills in the Government programme. But it would always be open to the Government to say of a particular Bill that it was not of a contentious character, and the Opposition would feel that the Rule was not being fairly interpreted. A Government generally tried to put its best foot forward, and placed in its programme at the commencement of the session these Bills which it claimed to have obtained a mandate from the country to pass into law. If those important measures were exempted from the Rule they would know exactly what business they had before them to discuss during the session. If his Amendment were accepted, the Government would not be able to send important Bills upstairs in order to burke discussion. He begged to move.
  MR. REMNANTformally seconded the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 10, at the end, to insert the words, 'Bills referred to in His Majesty's Gracious Speech from the Throne at the commencement of the session."—(Mr. Fell.)
  Question proposed, "That these words be there inserted."
  MR. MCKENNAsaid the hon. Member was mistaken in his understanding of the proposed Rule, because there could not be any acrimonious discussions of the nature to which he had alluded. It would be impossible for the Govern-
  856
  ment to accept the Amendment. He pointed out that this year, in the Speech from the Throne, such Bills as those for the establishment of a Court of criminal appeal, the regulation of hours in mines, the Amendment of the patent laws, and the improvement of the law relating to the valuation of property were mentioned, all of which were very proper Bills to be sent to a Grand Committee. The Amendment would prevent their being sent upstairs.
  VISCOUNT HELMSLEYsaid the right hon. Gentleman had dismissed the Amendment in a somewhat cursory manner. He thought there was a good deal in the suggestion that at the beginning of the session Members should know what Bills were to be discussed on the floor of the House, and what Bills were to be sent upstairs. The Bills contained in the King's Speech might be divided into two classes, and classified as Bills of first-class and second-class importance. The danger, he foresaw, was that a Government overburdened with a programme of legislation which it attempted to drive through by sledge-hammer methods, might find as the session progressed that it would be impossible to complete its programme if all the measures of first-class importance were to be discussed on the floor of the House. To any Government in that position there would be a strong temptation to send up to a Grand Committee measures, even of first-class importance, which, according to the general practice, ought to be discussed upon the floor of the House. That danger could be obviated by the acceptance of some such Amendment as this. The Prime Minister had said over and over again that it was not intended to send measures of primary importance upstairs, and the House wanted to know what he meant by that.
  MR. MCKENNAasked if the noble Lord could quote the Prime Minister's words.
  VISCOUNT HELMSLEYsaid he had not with him the quotation, but he would

  857
  appeal to the recollection of the House as to whether what he had roughly stated was what the Prime Minister had said. He understood that the Prime Minister's words were "the important controversial measures of the session." He thought that expression of opinion by the Prime Minister ought to be embodied in the Standing Order. There was a very real danger that unless something of the kind were done measures which ought to be discussed
  in Committee of the Whole House would be sent upstairs, merely because the Government found themselves in a difficulty. He hoped they would have a more satisfactory reply from the Government on this point.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 279. (Division List No. 125.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F

  Duncan, Robert (Lan'rk, Govan

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Ashley, W. W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Rawlinson, Frederick John Peel]

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Haddock, George R.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Turnoui1, Viscount

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Cave, George

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore

  MaeIver, David (Liverpool)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Younger, George

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Fell and Mr. Remnant.

  Cross, Alexander

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex. Romf'rd

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bethell. T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Alden, Percy

  Billson, Alfred

  Clough, William

  Ambrose, Robert

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Clynes, J. R.

  Armitage, R.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Armstrong; W. C. Heaton

  Boland, John

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Brace, William

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Barker, John

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Cox, Harold

  Barnard, E. B.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Crean, Eugene

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Crombie, John William

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Byles, William Pollard

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Bell, Richard

  Cameron, Robert

  Crossley, William J.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Benn, W. (T'v'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Delany, William

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Rees, J. D.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Richardson, A.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lamont, Norman

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lever, W. R. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Robinson, S.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Levy, Maurice

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rowlands, J.

  Edwards, Enock (Hanley)

  Lough, Thomas

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Lundon, W.

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Elibank, Master of

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne)

  Erskine, David C.

  Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs

  Sears, J. E.

  Essex, R. W.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Seddon, J.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  MacVeigh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Fenwick, Charles

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Ferens, T. R.

  M'Crae, George

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ffrench, Peter

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Findlay, Alexander

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  M'Killop, W.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Snowden, P.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Maddison, Frederick

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Gilhooly, James

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Gill, A. H.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Stewart-Smith. D. (Kendal)

  Ginnell, L.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Glover, Thomas

  Marnham, F. J.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Gulland, John W.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Summerbell, T.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Massie, J.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Meagher, Michael

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Hall, Frederick

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Halpin, J.

  Menzies, Walter

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Thomas, Sir A. (G1amorgan, E.)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Montagu, E. S.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Mooney, J. J.

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somers't, E.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Morse, L. L.

  Tomkinson, James

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Harwood, George

  Myer, Horatio

  Ure, Alexander

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Napier, T. B.

  Vivian, Henry

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Nicholls, George

  Walsh, Stephen

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Walters, John Tudor

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nolan, Joseph

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Waring, Walter

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool);

  Weir, James Galloway

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  O'Doherty, Philip:

  White, Luke (York. E. R.)

  Hodge, John

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Hogan, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Grady, J.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Mara, James

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Hudson, Walter

  Partington, Oswald

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Winfrey, R.

  Jenkins, J.

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Joyce, Michael

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 11, at the beginning, to insert the words 'Provided that,'"—(Mr. McKenna.)
  Question proposed, "That these words be there inserted."
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid sub-section (2) of the Resolution which was now before the House proposed in certain cases to divide Bills into two parts, one part being reserved for the consideration of the whole House in Committee, and the other part sent upstairs for the consideration of a Standing Committee. As a Member of the Procedure Committee he knew that this was introduced last year in rather a curious way. It did not form part of the scheme of the Government as originally submitted to the Committee, but was suddenly, at a later stage of their proceedings, brought forward by the Chairman. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, when examined as a witness, was asked some questions with respect to this Rule which did not appear on the Paper, and it was then announced that the Government had adopted the Rule which was practically the same as that now proposed as sub-section (2) of the Resolution. He thought there could be little doubt as to the genesis of that particular rule. It was brought forward at the time the Education Bill was about to be discussed in the House, and no doubt the Government intended to press forward the new Rules in order that they might be able to divide that Bill into two parts, and to retain the controversial clauses for consideration of the Committee of the Whole House, while the machinery part was sent upstairs to be dealt with by a Standing Committee. Whether or not it was the intention of the Government at that time to apply the Rule to the Education Bill, it was clear from the discussions that there was to be a rather new application of the proposal. A few nights ago the Government had stated what in their opinion the application of the sub-section should be in reference to a very important Bill of this session, namely, the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill. The Government had indicated that the whole of that Bill could, under the sub-section, be sent upstairs, with the exception of one half-section of
  862
  one clause dealing with finance, which would be left to be considered by Committee of the Whole House. He could hardly imagine a more objectionable application of the sub-section, or one less likely to lead to advantageous discussion either in the House or in the Standing Committee. The House always heard two voices from the Government in regard to the construction of the new Rules. A few minutes ago the right hon. Gentleman had given his rendering, and shortly afterwards he had been entirely contradicted by the Chancellor of the Duchy as to the kind of Bills that were to be retained entirely in the House. The right hon. Gentleman had said that it was only small questions of finance or procedure that were to be sent upstairs for discussion, and that all other questions were to be kept downstairs. The Amendment he himself had moved in Committee in connection with this question was accepted at the time; but it formed no part of the plan of the Government. His suggestion was that if a Bill was to be divided they should insist on the principle of the Bill being established in the Whole House, only that portion connected with the machinery of the Bill being sent upstairs. In the Standing Order as now presented there was no suggestion of that kind—what portion of the Bill should be sent upstairs, and what portion should be retained. The only opportunity the House would be given for any explanation or debate on the Report stage would be an extremely short statement by the Minister in charge, or by the Member who opposed. Unlimited as the Government proposal was, he considered it a dangerous innovation, unlikely to facilitate business, or to lead to the good drafting of the Bills. It was, therefore, with regret that he suggested to leave out the words "provided that," in order eventually to leave out the whole sub-section.
  MR. MCKENNAsaid that the addition of the two words, "provided that," was merely a drafting Amendment, and that they had been inserted to satisfy a suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition. As to the substantial question raised by the hon. Gentleman on the merits of the second part of the Rule, all they asked was to give the House the power of dividing a Bill, sending

  863
  the less controversial portions upstairs, and retaining the highly controversial portions in the House. The hon. Gentleman had said that the power to divide the Bill was a great encroachment on the privileges of the House, but he agreed that it would expedite the machinery parts of the Bill if they were sent upstairs to be considered by the Committee. The House had already decided that all Bills might go upstairs with the exception of those stated in the Rule.
  VISCOUNT HELMSLEY: What Bills?
  MR. MCKENNA: All Bills with the exception of finance Bills. It was surely not unwise that the House should have the power to retain parts of Bills, and not be obliged to send the whole upstairs.
  *SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that these Rules were landing the House in greater and greater confusion. It had been understood that all Bills were automatically to go upstairs with the exception of Bills imposing taxes, or dealing with finance; but now they were told that the Government would say how much of a Bill should be sent upstairs, and how much should be retained in the House. The Opposition had asked that all Bills involving great national and imperial considerations should be retained, but the Government had continually refused that. Now they were told that the Government were going to reserve certain portions of Bills to be retained, or to be sent upstairs. So far as at present appeared, it was proposed to give the Government of the day a perfectly arbitrary power to decide how much of a Bill was to be sent upstairs, and how much of it was to be kept in the House. He regarded the proposal as depriving the House of the opportunity of looking at a Bill as a whole, and as likely to land the business of the House in great confusion.
  *SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that the hon. Member constantly referred to the Government, whereas it was the House of Commons which decided the matter. All the authorities on procedure were agreed that the details and machinery parts of a Bill could be better settled in Committee upstairs, while those dealing with matters of principle should be retained for dis-
  864
  cussion in Committee of the Whole House. He maintained that of all the proposals there were none more important for carrying out efficiently the business of the House.
  MR. FORSTERasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not consider the Amendment which he had on the Paper, to provide that the Standing Committee should not proceed with the consideration of that portion of the Bill committed to it until the other portion had passed through Committee of the Whole House.
  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKERsaid that the Amendment to which the hon. Gentleman was referring was a separate Amendment, and he could not allow it to be discussed at that point.
  MR. FORSTERsaid he did not wish to discuss the Amendment; he was only asking whether the right hon. Gentleman would make some Amendment of the Standing Order in the direction he had suggested. The matter was discussed before the Procedure Committee, and he thought they were all agreed that if parts of Bills were to be reserved for consideration in Committee of the Whole House those portions of the Bills would necessarily contain the proposals which were vital to the Bill. He thought, therefore, it would be waste of time if the Standing Committee were to be occupied in discussing machinery which might be rendered useless by the discussions in Committee of the Whole House. He did not wish to labour the point in view of the ruling of Mr. Deputy Speaker, but he hoped the Government would see their way to amend their proposals in that sense. He would like to make one other suggestion. An Amendment might be made in Committee of the Whole House which was inconsistent with an Amendment made in the Committee upstairs. He thought it would be some guide to the Committee upstairs if they had before them the result of the deliberations in Committee of the Whole House. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would tell them that an amendment would be proposed to meet these difficulties.
  *SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid the matter had been considered, but he

  865
  believed that when the experts and the officials came to deal with the question the Government were advised that it would be better to leave the matter as it now stood, and that if the hon. Member's Amendment were accepted it would complicate matters much more than if things were left in their present state.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid they were obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for referring to this matter again, but he pointed out that if the machinery clauses of a Bill came before a Grand Committee, and the operative clauses before a Committee of the Whole House, it was not only probable, but inevitable, that the Committee dealing with the machinery clauses would insert provisions and make alterations inconsistent with the main principle underlying the Bill. He thought that was a fair case for consideration, because unless the same Committee dealt with the whole of a Bill they were bound to get it considered from various points of view, with the result that one-half of the Bill would be dealt with from one point of view, and the other half considered in another aspect. For himself he did not think that the machinery clauses of a Bill could be detached or divorced from the parts containing the root principle, The principle of the Bill and its machinery ought to be unified, and it was an exceedingly unbusiness-like proceeding to say that certain clauses could be considered before one Committee, and that others which had to carry out the object expressed in those clauses might be considered by a different Committee. He hoped the Government and the House would reconsider the question, because he felt convinced that if they did not, Bills which came down to the House under the new condition of things would not be satisfactory or coherent.
  *SIR FRANCIS POWELL (Wigan)said it seemed to him that the proposal of the Government in this particular was open to the objection which they had taken to their suggestions on former occasions, namely, that it displayed extreme vagueness. The language of which they were asked to approve was most general in its character. It contained no definition and no direction. All they had to go upon on this occasion,
  866
  as on many others, was a declaration by the Government of their intention and their view, but when Members on that side of the House desired to have those declarations enshrined in a clause they were always met with a mere negation. He believed a proposal framed as this one was, was unworkable, and that it would cause great embarrassment and must end in failure. He was grateful to the House for allowing him to speak at so late a stage of the proceedings, and it was a privilege to do so. But he felt very strongly that it was on the successful or unsuccessful working of these proposals that the excellence or otherwise of their future legislation must depend. This was not a Party, but a national question, upon which the whole working of the machinery of the House of Commons depended.
  SIR F. BANBURYmoved an Amendment to limit the operation of the new Rules to the end of the Session of 1908. He said that his object was to ensure that the new Rules should practically be only sessional rules. He had a precedent for that proposal. Whether the Rules were good or bad they would bring about a great revolution in the course of business and the procedure of the House. That was admitted by the Prime Minister himself because the right hon. Gentleman described the changes as being of a revolutionary character, and justified them simply and solely by saying that in his opinion they would facilitate business. He thought the House would act wisely if they accepted his Amendment, so that if the Rules did not turn out to be a success the House would have authority to terminate them. On the other hand, if the Rules were successful they could be re-enacted. He had a precedent for his Amendment, and that was the action of Mr. Gladstone in 1882, when he established the two Grand Committees to which they were now going to add two more. Mr. Gladstone gave many good reasons to show there was considerable danger in connection with the new Committees. One reason he gave for establishing them was that they would transact business that interested only a part of the House, and he stated that that business, and that

  867
  business only, should go before them. Mr. Gladstone was most anxious that the business that had an interest for the whole of the House should remain in the floor of the House. That was quite different from the desire of the Prime Minister. Mr. Gladstone desired to set up the Committees as an experiment only. The very fears which they in opposition now had were these which Mr. Gladstone felt in 1882 in connection with a much milder alteration of the Rules of the House. While the Prime Minister was absent from the House the President of the Board of Education had told them that highly controversial Bills would not be sent upstairs. But the right hon. Gentleman also gave the House to understand that the only judge of what was a controversial Bill would be the Government of the day. He indicated that all Bills under these Rules, with the exception of money Bills, would be sent to the Committee, and that though the Government could send up highly controversial Bills, it would be in their power to keep them in the House. Therefore, the only safeguard the House had if against highly controversial Bills being sent upstairs would be the Government of the day. He had every confidence in the present Government in so far that he believed they would pledge themselves not to remit such Bills to a Committee, but that was no safeguard against a future Government. In this connection he would like to quote some words which the present Prime Minister used from the Opposition Front Bench on 6th February, 1902. The right hon. Gentleman then said—
  "After all there is an old phrase which may sound a mere artificial form of words that this House is the grand inquest of the Nation. But really that does express the foundation truth of the duty of the House. This is no mere factory establishment; it is not a mere counting house in which demands on the public purse are to be checked and approved and provided for. It is something much more and much more important. For my part I will go as far as to say that the function of the conduct of business is merely secondary to the maintenance of those rights of which I speak. It would be better that this House
  should be less efficient in its transaction of business and should retain the full faculty of exercising the functions to which I refer than that should be diminished and that the House should become the most perfect legislative machine in the world."
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Hear, hear.
  SIR F. BANBURYexpressed surprise that the right hon. Gentleman should cheer that quotation unless he proposed to accept the Amendment, because the Amendment intended to provide exactly the state of things contemplated by the words he had just read; that was to say, to provide that the control of the House should remain in the House even at the sacrifice of what the right hon. Gentleman believed these Committees were going to do, namely, facilitate legislation. He begged to move.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIGseconded the Amendment for the reason that the Prime Minister had himself stated earlier in the debate that the very great change he proposed to make was of a highly experimental nature. If that was so, the right hon. Gentleman should treat it as an experiment and allow the House at the end of a couple of years to have an opportunity of either re-enacting the Rules or allowing them to lapse.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 11, after the word 'House,' to insert the words 'until the end of the Session of 1908.'"—(Sir F. Banbury.)
  SIR H. CAMPBELL BANNERMANsaid he could not accept the Amendment. He thought he could not do anything more likely to defeat the object they had in view than to put a limit to the opera-of the Rules.
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  The House divided: Ayes 117; Noes, 361. (Div. List No. 126.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hick

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Ashley, W. W.

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchest'r

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffeld, Ecclesall)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hehnsley, Viscount

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Mennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Cave, George

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Smith, Aber H. (Hertford, East)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

  Keswick, William

  Smith, F. E.(Liverpool, Walton)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Starkey, John R.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Liddell, Henry

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cross, Alexander

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Fardell. Sir T. George

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Fell, Arthur

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Younger, George

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Forster, Henry William

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Frederick Banbury and Mr. Rawlinson.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Percy, Earl

  Haddock, George R.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Billson, Alfred

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cooper, G. J.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Black, Arthur W.

  Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Boland, John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Agnew, George William

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Alden, Percy

  Brace, William

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud.)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Crean, Eugene

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brigg, John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Armitage, R.

  Bright, J. A.

  Crombie, John William

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Crooks, William

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brunner, J F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Crossley, William J.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Barker, John

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Byles, William Pollard

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Cameron, Robert

  Delany, William

  Barnard, E. B.

  Campbell-Bannermann, Sir H.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Barnes, G. N.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Bell, Richard

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cleland, J. W.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport

  Clough, William

  Duckworth, James

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets. S. Geo.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Duncan, C (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Bethell Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  870

  871

  Edwards, Each (Hanley)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Elibank, Master of

  Joyce; Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Kearley, Hudson, E.

  O'Grady, J.

  Erskine, David C.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Essex, R. W.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Mara, James

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Partington, Oswald

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Pearce, Robert (Stags, Leek)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lambert, George

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lamont, Norman

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lehmann,; R. C.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Levy, Maurice

  Price. Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford. S.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Gilhooly, James

  Lundon, W.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Gill, A. H.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Ginnell, L.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Gladstone Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Rees, J. D.

  Glover, Thomas

  Mackarness, Frederick C.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Gulland, John W.

  Maclean, Donald

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Richardson. A.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Hall, Frederick

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Halpin, J.

  MacVeagh, Charles (Donegal, E.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Callum, John M.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf"d

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Crae, George

  Robinson, S.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh

  M'Kenna, Rt. Don. Reginald

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Harrington, Timothy

  M'Killop, W.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Rowlands, J.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Harwood, George

  Maddison, Frederick

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Marnham, F. J.

  Sears, J. E.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Massie, J.

  Seddon, J.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Shackleton; David James

  Higham, John Sharp

  Menzies, Walter

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sheehy, David

  Hodge, John

  Montagu, E. S.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Hogan, Michael

  Mooney, J. J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hooper, A. G.

  Morrell, Philip

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Morse, L. L.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Myer, Horatio

  Snowden, P.

  Horridge, Thomas Geoffrey

  Napier, T. B.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Howard, Hon. Geoffery

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hudson, Walter

  Nicholls, George

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nolan, Joseph

  Steadman, W. C.

  Illingworth, Percy H,

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Stewart-Smith. D. (Kendal)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Nussey, Thomas Williams

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Nuttall, Harry

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Summerbell, T.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  O'Connor, 'John (Kildare, N.)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  872

  873

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wardle, George J.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Waring, Walter

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Williams, Llewelyn (C'rmarth'n

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset E

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Tomkinson, James

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Toulmin, George

  Whitbread, Howard

  Winfrey, R.

  Ure, Alexander

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Vivian, Henry

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Walsh, Stephen

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Wiles, Thomas

  And, it being after Ten of the Clock, Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 15th April, proceeded to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments and Motions moved by the Government of which notice had been given.
  Amendments—
  "In line 13, after the word 'provisions,' to insert the words 'and that;'
  "In line 17, at the end, to add the words,
  '(3) Where a Bill has been committed to a Standing Committee, or has been so committed in respect of any provision, then, at the Report stage of the Bill or provision, the rule against speaking more than once shall not apply to the Member in charge of the Bill or to the mover of any Amendment or new Clause in respect of that Amendment or Clause'"—made.
  Main Question, as amended, put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 359; Noes, 124. (Division List No. 127.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Billson, Alfred

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cowan, W. H.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Black, Arthur W.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Agnew, George William

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Crombie, John William

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brace, William

  Crooks, William

  Alden, Percy

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Brigg, John

  Cross, Alexander

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bright, J. A.

  Crossley, William J.

  Armitage, R.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Barker, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Duckworth, James

  Barnes, G. N.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Dunean, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone. N)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall

  Beale, W. P.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  defend, J. W.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Bell, Richard

  Clough, William

  Elibank, Master of

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Clynes, J. R.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Erskine, David C.

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Essex, R. W.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Collins, Sir Wm. J (S. Pancras, W.

  Esslemont, George Bimie

  Bertram, Julius

  Cooper, G. J.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lehmann, R, C.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Foster Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Levy, Maurice

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rees, J. D.

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lough, Thomas

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lupton, Arnold

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Richardson, A.

  Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Gill, A. H.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradford

  Glover, Thomas

  Maclean, Donald

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Robinson, S.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Callum, John M.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Crae, George

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rose, Charles Day

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Rowlands, J.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Harmsworth, Ceil B. (Wore'r)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Markham, Arthur Basll

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Harwood, George

  Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

  Sears, J. E.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Seddon, J.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Massie, J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Shackleton, David James

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Menzies, Walter

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Mond, A.

  Sheehy, David

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Higham, John Sharp

  Montagu, E. S.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Mooney, J. J.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hodge, John

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Morrell, Philip

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Morse, L. L.

  Snowden, P.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Myer, Horatio

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Napier, T. B.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Nicholls, George

  Steadman, W. C.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Nicholson, Charles N (Doncaster

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Hudson, Walter

  Nolan, Joseph

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nussey, Thomas Williams

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Summerbell, T.

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Sutherland. J. E.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  O'Grady, J.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth.)

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Mara, James

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Partington, Oswald

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthye

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembr'ke

  Thompson, J. W. H (Somerset, E.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Tomkinson, James

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Toulmin, George

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Pollard, Dr.

  Ure, Alexander

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Verney, F. W.

  Lambert, George

  Price, Robert John (Norford, E.)

  Vivian, Henry

  Lamont, Norman

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.

  Walker, H. De R, (Leicester)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Radford, G. H.

  Walsh, Stephen

  876

  877

  Walters, John Tudor

  Whitbread, Howard

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Wardle, George J.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson,, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Waring, Walter

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Winfrey, R.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Whitley, John Henry(Halifax)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carinarth'n

  Pease.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fell, Arthur

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Ashley, W. W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Percy, Earl

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Forster, Henry William

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Balfour, Rt. Hn A. J. (City Lond.)

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Haddock, George R.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Beach, Hn Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H.. B.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey, F. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds.

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Keswick, William

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cave, George

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.

  Starkey, John R.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Liddell, Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A. (Wore.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Long. Col. Charles W (Evesham)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Captain James (Down. E.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Delany, William

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Doughty, Sir George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Younger, George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Midway, Francis Bingham

  Duncan, Robot. (Lanark, Govan)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Motion made, and Question put, "That this Order be a Standing Order of the House."—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 350; Noes, 122. (Division List No. 128.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Adkins, W. Rayland D.

  Armitage, R.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Agnew, George William

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

  Alden, Percy

  Astbury, John Meir

  Barker, John

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Duckworth, James

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Dunne, Major E Martin (Walsall)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone. N.)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Beale, W. P.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Elibank, Master of

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Bell, Richard

  Erskine, David C.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Essex, R. W.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lambert, George

  Benn, W. (T'w's Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lamont, Norman

  Bennett, E. N.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Bertram, Julius

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Bethell, Sir J H. (Essex, Romford

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Billson, Alfred

  Findlay, Alexander

  Levy, Maurice

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Black, Arthur W.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Lough, Thomas

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Brace, William

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Brigg, John

  Gill, A. H.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Bright, J. A.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert Job

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bights)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Muckiness, Frederic C.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Glover, Thomas

  Maclean, Donald

  Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir J. T. (Ches'ire)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Buck master, Stanley O.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Callum, John M.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Crae, George

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Causton, Rt Hn Richard Knight

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Harvey, W. E.(Derbyshire, N. E.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harwood, George

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Massie, J.

  Clough, William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Menzies, Walter

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Mond, A.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E Grinst'd

  Higham, John Sharp

  Montagu, E. S.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hodge, John

  Morrell, Philip

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Cremer, William Randal

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Myer, Horatio

  Crombie, John William

  Hooper, A. G.

  Napier, T. B.

  Crooks, William

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Nicholls, George

  Crossley, William J.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Hudson, Walter

  Nuttall, Harry

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Hyde, Clarendon

  O'Grady, J.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Partington, Oswald

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Jenkins, J.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  880

  881

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Vivian, Henry

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Shackleton, David James

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Pollard, Dr.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Walton, Joseph (Bamsley)

  Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ward, W. Dadley (Southampt'n

  Radford, G. H.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wardle, George J.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Waring, Walter

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Snowdon, P.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Rees, J. D.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Richardson, A.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Whitbread, Howard

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'd)

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Summerbell, T.

  Wriles, Thomas

  Robinson, S.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Taylor, John (Durham)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Rowlands, J.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Samuel Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Winfrey, R.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Thompson, J. W. H (Somerset. E.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Tomkinson, James

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Sears, J. E.

  Toulmin, George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Ure, Alexander

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A, Pease.

  Seddon, J.

  Verney, F. W.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Craik, Sir Henry '

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cross, Alexander

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Doughty, Sir George

  Liddell, Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lock wood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin. S.)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fell, Arthur

  Lyttleton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Bull, Sir William James

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Forster, Henry William

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Haddock, George R.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Cave, George

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hervey, A. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm'gham)

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Percy, Earl

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Keswick, William

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  882

  883

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Starkey, John R.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Younger, George

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Turnour, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Standing Order 46 read as follows:—The Resolutions of the House of the 1st December, 1882, relating to the constitution and proceedings of Standing Committees for the consideration of Bills relating to Law, and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure, and to Trade, Shipping, and Manufactures, shall be
  revived, and Trade shall include Agriculture and Fishing.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Standing Order be repealed."—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 387; Noes, 123. (Division List No. 129.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Branch, James

  Delany, William

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Brigg, John

  Devlin, Joseph

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Adkins, W. Rayland D.

  Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Agnew, George William

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J T. (Cheshire

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Alden, Percy

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Duckworth, James

  Ambrose, Robert

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Armitage, R.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dunne, Major E Martin (Walsall

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cair-Gomm, H. W.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Causton, Rt. Hn Richard Knight

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Elibank, Master of

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Erskine, David C.

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Essex, R. W.

  Barker, John

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Cleland, J. W.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Clough, William

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Barnard, E. B.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Barnes, G. N.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Barran, Rowland Hiirst

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J (S. Pancras, W

  Ffrench, Peter

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Findlay, Alexander

  Beale, W. P.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Beauchamp, E.

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E Grinst'd

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Bell, Richard

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cowan, W. H.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Crean, Eugene

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gilhooly, James

  Bertram, Julius

  Crombie, John William

  Gill, A. H.

  Bethell, Sir J. H (Essex, Rumford)

  Crooks, William

  Ginnell, L.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Billson, Alfred

  Crossley, William J.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Glover, Thomas

  Black, Arthur W.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Boland, John

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Bower man, C. W.

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Gulland, John W.

  Brace, William

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Hall, Frederick

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Halpin, J.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Richards, Thomas (WMonm'th)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Richardson, A.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)

  M'Crae, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Harrington, Timothy

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Killop, W.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradf'rd

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Harwood, George

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robinson, S.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Rogers. F. E. Newman

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rose, Charles Day

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rowlands, J.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Runciman, Walter

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Massie, J.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whiechapel)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Menzies, Walter

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Hodge, John

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne

  Hogan, Michael

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sears, J. E.

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Mond, A.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Seddon, J.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Shackleton, David James

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Morrell, Philip

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Sheehy, David

  Hudson, Walter

  Myer, Horatio

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Napier, T. B.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nicholls, George

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Jackson, R. S.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Jacoby, Sir James A If red

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Jenkins, J.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Snowden, P.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Steadman, W. C.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Stewart-Smith. D. (Kendall

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Dowd, John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Grady, J.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  O'Malley, William

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  O'Mara, James

  Summerbell, T.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Partington, Oswald

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Lambert, George

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Lamont, Norman

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Philipps, J Wynford (Pembroke

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Levy, Maurice

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pollard, Dr.

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Tomkinson, James

  Lough, Thomas

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Lundon, W.

  Radford, G. H.

  Toulmin, George

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Ure, Alexander

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Verney, F. W.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Vivian, Henry

  Macdonald, J. M (Falkirk Bights

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Muckiness, Frederic C.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Maclean, Donald

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rees, J. D.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  886

  887

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Wardle, George J.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Waring, Walter

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Winfrey, R.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Whitbread, Howard

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn Sir Alex. F.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fell, Arthur

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Randles, Sir John Sourrah

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Forster, Henry William

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Balfour, Rat Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester

  Haddock, George R.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Butcher. Samuel Henry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Keswick, William

  Stanley. Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Starkey, John R.

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Liddell, Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone E.,)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Chamberlain, Rat Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublm, S.)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingh'm

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Williams. Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Cross, Alexander

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wolff, Gustav. Wilhelm

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Doughty, Sir George

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Younger, George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Claude Hay and Sir William Bull.

  Faber, Capt. W.V. (Hants, W.)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Standing Order 47 read as follows:—Two Standing Committees shall be appointed for the consideration of all Bills relating to Law and Courts of Justice and Legal Procedure, and to Trade, Shipping, and Manufactures, which may by Order of the House in each case, be committed to them; and the procedure in such Committees shall be the same as in a Select Committee, unless the House shall otherwise order: provided, that strangers shall
  888
  be admitted, except when the Committee shall order them to withdraw; and the said Committees shall not sit, after Three of the Clock, whilst the House is sitting, without the Order of the House: provided also, that any notice of Amendment to any clause in a Bill which may be committed to a Standing Committee, given by any hon. Member in the House, shall stand referred to such Committee: provided also, that Twenty be

  889
  the quorum of suet Standing Committees.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 1, to leave out the word 'Two' and insert the word 'Four.'"—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Question put, "That the word 'Two' stand part of the Standing Order."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 121; Noes, 350. (Division List, No. 130.)

  AYES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Ashley, W. W.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  Powell, Sir Farncis Sharp

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchest'r

  Haddock, George R.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Ed'ds

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Keswick, William

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Starkey, John R.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Liddell, Henry

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J A. (Worc

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm'hgam)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lyttelton Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Warde, Col. C. E.(Kent, Mid)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Doughty, Sir George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Younger, George

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hanta, W.)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Fell, Arthur

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Baring Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Bertram, Julius

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barker, John

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'd

  Adkins, W. Rayland D.

  Barlow, John Emmott (S'm'rs't

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Agnew, George William

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Billson, Alfred

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barnard, E. B.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Alden, Percy

  Barnes, G. N.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone, N.)

  Bower man, C. W.

  Armitage, R.

  Beale, W. P.

  Brace, William

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Beauchamp, F.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Branch, James

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bell, Richard

  Brigg, John

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Dev'np'rt

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Benn, W. (Taw's Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Ches.)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Buck master, Stanley O.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  M'Callum, John M.

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Crae, George

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Byles, William Pollard

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Harwood, George

  Marnham, F. J.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Clough, William

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Massie, J.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Menzies, Walter

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Moleno, Percy Alport

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Mond, A.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Montagu, E. S.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morrell, Philip

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Cox, Harold

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Myer, Horatio

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hodge, John

  Napier, T. B.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Crombie, John William

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Nicholls, George

  Crooks, William

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Crosfieid, A. H.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Cross, Alexander

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Crossley, William J.

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N

  Nut tall, Harry

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Donnell, C.J. (Walworth)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  O'Grady, J.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hudson, Walter

  Partington, Oswald

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Hutton. Alfred Eddison

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N

  Jackson, R. S.

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Jenkins, J.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Pollard, Dr.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Dunne, Maj. E. Martin (Walsall)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Radford, G. H.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Hlibank, Master of

  Kincaid-.Smith, Captain

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Erskine, David C.

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Rees, J. D.

  Essex, R. W.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Rendall, Atherstan

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lambert, George

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'n

  Everett, E. Lacey

  Lamont, Norman

  Richardson, A.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Ferens, T. R,

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Levy, Maurice

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lough, Thomas

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Luttrell Hugh Fownes

  Robinson, S.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Gill, A. H.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bights

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Muckiness, Frederic C.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Maclean, Donald

  Rowlands, J.

  Glover, Thomas

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Runciman, Walter

  892

  893

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Summerbell, T.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Sears, J. E.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whitbread, Howard

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Seddon, J.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  White, Luke (York, E. K.)

  Shackleton, David James

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Whiteley, John Henry (Halifax

  Shaw, Bt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Wiles, Thomas

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Tomkinson, James

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'rth'n

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Toulmin, George

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Die, Alexander

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Verney, F. W.

  Wilson, Herny J. (York, W. R.)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Vivian, Henry

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Snowdon, P.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Walsh, Stephen

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Winfrey, R,

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Steadman, W. C.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Wardle, George J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Waring, Walter

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Question put, "That the word 'Four' be there inserted."
  The House divided: —Ayes, 336; Noes, 121. (Division List, No. 131.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Crombie, John William

  Adkins, W. Rayland D.

  Bower man, C. W.

  Crooks, William

  Agnew, George William

  Brace, William

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Alden, Percy

  Branch, James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Brigg, John

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Armitage, R.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Ches.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Buck master, Stanley O.

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Byles, William Polard

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Barker, John

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Wals'll

  Barlow, John Emmott (S'mers't

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Elibank, Master of

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N. J

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Beale, W. P.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Erskine, David C.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Essex, R. W.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Clough, William

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Bell, Richard

  Clynes, J. R.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp't

  Collins, Stephen (Lambsth)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W

  Fenwick, Charles

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Bertram, Julius

  Corbott, C. H. (Sussex, E. Gr'st'd

  Findlay, Alexander

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Billson, Alfred W.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Fullerton, Hugl.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Gilhooly, James

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bights)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Gill, A. H.

  Muckiness, Frederic C.

  Rowlands, J.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Maclean, Donald

  Runciman, Walter

  Glover, Thomas

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Clevelanii)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  M'Callum, John M.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Crae, George

  Sehwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Schwann, Sir C E. (Manchester)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Scott, A. H. (Ashtonunder Lyne

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Laren, H. D. (Satfford, W.)

  Sears, J. E.

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Seddon, J.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Shackleton, David James

  Hart,-Davies, T.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Harwood, George

  Marnham, F. J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Massie, J.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Menzies, Walter

  Snowdon, P.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Mond, A.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Montagu, E. S.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Monrgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morrell, Philip

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Hodge, John

  Myer, Horatio

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Napier, T. B.

  Summerbell, T.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Nicholls, George

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nuttall, Harry

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Grady, J.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Hudson, Walter

  Parker, James (Halifax).

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Partington, Oswald

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Tomkinson, James

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Toulmin, George

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk. Eye)

  Ure, Alexander

  Jackson, R. S.

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Verney, F. W.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Vivian, Henry

  Jenkins, J.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Johnson, W. Nuneaton)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Price, Robot. John (Norfolk, E.)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Radford, G. H.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Wardle, George J.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Rees, J. D.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Lambert, George

  Richardson, A.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Lamont, Norman

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whitbread, Howard

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Roberts, Chap. H. (Lincoln)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Whitley, Rowland

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Lough, Thomas

  Robinson, S.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Wilkie, Alexander

  896

  897

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Williams, Osmond (Merion'th)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Winfrey, R.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrent

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fell, Arthur

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Ashley, W. W.

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Balcarres, Lord

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Percy, Earl

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Forster, Henry William

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchest'r

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Remnant, James Farquharson.

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Haddock, George R.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beckett, Hon, Gervase

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Bull, Sir William James

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, F. K. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur Ormskirk)

  Cave, George

  Keswick, William

  Starkey, John R.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Liddell, Henry

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingh'm

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lyttleton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Willoughby de Eresby. Lord

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Cross, Alexander

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Dalrvmple, Viscount

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Younger, George

  Doughty, Sir George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Duncan, Robot. (Lanark, Govan)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

  Amendment—
  "In line 2, to leave out from the word Bills' to the word 'committed' in line 4"'—made.
  Another Amendment proposed—
  "In line 7, to leave out the words 'after
  The House divided:—Ayes, 119; Noes, 385. (Division List No. 132.)

  AYES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Baring Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Ashley, W. W.

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Three of the Clock.'"—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Standing Order."
  Another Amendment proposed—
  "In line 8, after the word 'sitting.' to insert the words 'except in pursuance of a Resolution of the Committee, moved by the Member in charge of the Bill before the Committee, and decided without Amendment or debate, and
  The House divided:—Ayes, 374; Noes, 118. (Division List, No. 133.)

  AYES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Baring Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Ashley, W. W.

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Cave, George

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S.Edm'ds

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Hunt, Rowland

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thos. Myles

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Keswick, William

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingh'm

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Law. Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk.

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Liddell, Henry

  Starkey, John R.

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesh'm)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cross, Alexander

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Turnour, Viscount

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Duncan, Robot. (Lanark, Govan

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Fell, Arthur

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Forster, Henry William

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Younger, George

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Haddock, George R.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Percy, Earl

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Bertram, Julius

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Adkins, W. Rayland D.

  Billson, Alfred

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Agnew, George William

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cooper, G. J.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Black, Arthur W.

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd.

  Alden, Percy

  Boland, John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bower man, C. W.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brace, William

  Cowan, W. H.

  Armitage, R.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brigg, John

  Crean, Eugene

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Astbury, John Meir

  Brodie, H. C.

  Crombie, John William

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Crooks, William

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir J. T. Chesh.)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Buck master, Stanley O.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Davies, David (Montgomery C.

  Barker, John

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.).

  Barnes, G. N.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Delany, William

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Devlin, Joseph

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Beale, W. P.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Bell, Richard

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cleland, J. W.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness-

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Clough, William

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Benn, W. (Tw'rHamlets, S. Geo.)

  Clynes, J. R.

  Dunne, Maj. E. Martin (Walsall)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  900

  901

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Jenkins, J.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

  Elibank, Master of

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Erskine, David C.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Essex, R. W.

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Donnell. C. J. (Walworth)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Grady, J.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Malley, William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  O'Mara, James

  Ferens, T. R.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Partington, Oswald

  Findlay, Alexander

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Lambert, George

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lamont, Norman

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Gilhooly, James

  Levy, Maurice

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Gill, A. H.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Ginnell, L.

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Lough, Thomas

  Radford, G. H.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lundon, W.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Glover, Thomas

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bights)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Gulland, John W.

  Muckiness, Frederic C.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Maclean, Donald

  Rees. J. D.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Hall, Frederick

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Halpin, J.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Richardson, A

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  M'Crae, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Harrington, Timothy

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Killop, W.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire N. E.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Harwood, George

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Maddison. Frederick

  Robinson, S.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mansfield. H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Henry, Charles S.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Rowlands, J.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Runciman, Walter

  Higham, John Sharp

  Massie, J.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Hodge, John

  Menzies, Walter

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Hogan, Michael

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Mond, A.

  Sears, J. E.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Seddon, J.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Morgan, J. I loyd (Carmarthen)

  Shackleton, David James

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Morrell, Philip

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Horridge,, Thomas Gardner

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Myer, Horatio

  Sheehy, David

  Hudson, Walter

  Napier, T. B.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nicholls, George

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nolan, Joseph

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Jackson, R. S.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Nussey Thomas Willans

  Snowdon, P.

  902

  903

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Toulmin, George

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Soares, Ernest T.

  Ure, Alexander

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Verney, F. W.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Vivian, Henry

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Steadman, W. C.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Wiles, Thomas

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Walters, John Tudor

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Summerbell, T.

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wardle, George J.

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Waring, Walter

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Wilson, J. H (Middlesbrough)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Winfrey, R.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Weir, James Galloway

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

  Whitbread, Howard

  Tomkinson, James

  White, George (Norfolk)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Boland, John

  Cowan, W. H.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Adkins, W. Rayland D.

  Bower man, C. W.

  Crean, Eugene

  Agnew, George William

  Brace, William

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Crombie, John William

  Alden, Percy

  Brigg, John

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Broklehurst, W. B.

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Davies, David (Montgomery (Co.

  Armitage, R.

  Brunner, Rat Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Buck master, Stanley O.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Delany, William

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N

  Barker, John

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Barlow, John Emmott Somerset

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Dilke, Rat, Hon. Sir Charles

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Barnes, G. N.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cherry. Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Beale, W. P.

  Clough, William

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Beauchamp, E

  Clynes, J. R.

  Elibank, Master of

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Erskine, David C.

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Essex, R. W.

  Benn, W. (Taw's Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Collins, Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W.)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Bennett, E. N.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Bertram, Julius

  Cooper, G. J.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grmst'd

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Billson, Alfred

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cory, Clifford John

  Ferens, T. R.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lambert, George

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lamont, Norman

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Pollard, Dr.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Levy, Maurice

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Gilhooly, James

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Radford, G. H.

  Gill, A. H.

  Lough, Thomas

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Ginnell, L.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Glover, Thomas

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Gulland, John W.

  Mackarness, Friederic C.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Maclean, Donald

  Rees J. D.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Hall, Frederick

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Halpin, J.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  MacVeigh. Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Richardson, A.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  M'Crae, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Harrington, Timothy

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Killop, W.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Harvey. A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robertson. Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Harwood, George

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Robinson, S.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rogers. F. E. Newman

  Henry, Charles S.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Rowlands, J.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Mason, A. E W. (Coventry)

  Runciman, Walter

  Higham, John Sharp

  Massie, J.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Hodge, John

  Menzies, Walter

  Schawnn, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Hogan, Michael

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Holden. E. Hopkinson

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Mond, A.

  Sears, J. E.

  Holt, Richard Burning

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Seddon, J.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Shackleton, David James

  Horniman, Emslie John,

  Morrell, Philip

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Myer, Horatio

  Sheehy, David

  Hudson, Walter

  Napier, T. B.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nicholls, George

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nolan, Joseph

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Jackson, R. S.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Snowden, P.

  Jenkins, J.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Jones. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Steadman, W. C.

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Stewart-Smith, D.(Kendal)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Grady, J.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Malley, William

  Summerbell, T.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  O'Mara, James

  Sutherland, J. E.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)]

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Partington, Oswald

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  906

  907

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton

  Wiles, Thomas

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Wardle, George J.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen. E.)

  Waring, Walter

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Tomkinson, James

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Toulmin, George

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wilson, J. H.(Middlesbrogh)

  Ure, Alexander

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilson. J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Verney, F. W,

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras. S.)

  Vivian, Henry

  Whitbread, Howard

  Winfrey, R.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Walsh, Stephen

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Walters, John Tudor

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—.Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fell, Arthur

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens]

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Ashley, W. W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Forster, Henry William

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Haddock, George R.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Keswick, William

  Starkey, John R.

  Cave, George

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cavendish. Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Thomson, W. Michell-(Lanark)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lee, Arthur H. (Farem

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cecil. Lord R. (Marylebone. E.)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A. (Worc.

  Liddell, Henry

  Turnour, Viscount

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E. Howard

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Cross, Alexander

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Meyesy-Thompson, E. C.

  Younger, George

  Doughty, Sir George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  TELLERS KOK THE NOES— Mr. Claude Hay and Sir William Bull.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Shall not sit after four p.m. ߞ(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  Another Amendment proposed—
  "In line 12, at the end, to add the words 'One of the Standing Committees shall be
  appointed for the consideration of all Public-Bills relating exclusively to Scotland and committed to a Standing Committee, and
  shall consist of all the Members representing Scottish constituencies, together with not more than fifteen other Members to be nominated in respect of any Bill by the Committee of Selection, who shall have regard in such nomination to the approximation of the balance of Parties in the Committee to that in the Whole House, and shall have power from time to time to discharge, for non-attendance or at their own request, the Members so nominated by them, and to appoint others in substitution for these discharged. Subject as aforesaid the Bills committed to a Standing Committee shall be distributed among the Committees by Mr. Speaker. In all but one of the Standing Committees Government Bilk shall have precedence. Standing Order 19 (as to irrelevance and repetition) and Standing Orders 26 and 27 (as to closure) shall apply to
  Standing Committees, with the substitution in Standing Order 26 of the Chairman of the Committee for the Chairman of Ways and Means, and, in Standing Order 27 of 20 for 100 as the number necessary to render the majority effective for the Closure, and the Chairman of a Standing Committee shall have the like powers as the Chairman of a Committee of the Whole House has under Standing Order 23 (as to dilatory motions).'"—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Question put, "That these words be there added."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 363, Noes, 111. (Division List No. 134.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Delany, William

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Alden, Percy

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Dickinson, W. H. (St, Pancras. N

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Ambrose, Robert

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Armitage, R.

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in,-Furness

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dunne. Major E Martin (Walsall

  Astbury, John Meir

  Causton, Rt. Hn Richard Knight

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Elibank, Master of

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Barker, John

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Erskine, David C.

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Essex, R. W.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Cleland. J. W.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Barnard, E. B.

  Clough, William

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Barnes, G. X.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Ferens, T. R.

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Collins, Sir Wm J. (St Pancras, W)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Beale, W. P.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Findlay, Alexander

  Beauchamp, E.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Corbett, A Cameron (Glasgow)

  Fowler, Rt, Hon. Sir Henry

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinsted)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Benn, Sir J Williams (Devonp'rt

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford. S.).

  Bertram, Julius

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

  Gilhooly, James

  Bethell, Sir JH.(Essex, Romford

  Crean, Eugene

  Gill, A. H.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ginnell, L.

  Billson, Alfred

  Crombie, John William

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Glover, Thomas

  Black, Arthur W.

  Cross, Alexander

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Boland, John

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Gulland, John W.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Brace, William

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Hall, Frederick

  Brigg, John

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Halpin, J,

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Hardy, George A (Suffolk)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robinson, S.

  Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Harrington, Timothy

  Maddison, Frederick

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Rogers, F. K. Newman

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Harwood, George

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rowlands, J.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Runciman, Walter

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Massie, J.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Schwann, Sir CE(Manchester)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Sears, J. E.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Mond, A.

  Seddon, J.

  Hodge, John

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Hogan, Michael

  Montagu, E. S.

  Shackleton, David James

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Mooney, J. J.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Morrell, Philip

  Sherwell Arthur James

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Shipman, Dr. John G,

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Myer, Horatio

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Napier, T. B.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Nicholls, George

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Hudson, Walter

  Nicholson, Charles N (Doncast'r

  Snowden, p

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Nolan, Joseph

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Spicer Sir Albert

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nuttall, Harry

  Steadman, W. C.

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Stewart-Smith D (Kendal)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Summerbell, T.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Sntherland, J. E.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Dowd, John

  Taylor Austen (East Toxteth)

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  O'Grady, J.

  Taylor John W. Durham)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Malley, William

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Mara, James

  Tennant H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Partington, Oswald

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

  Tomkinson, James

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Toulmin, George

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Ure, Alexander

  Lambert, George

  Pollard, Dr.

  Verney, F. W.

  Lamont, Norman

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Vivian, Henry

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Prestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Levy, Maurice

  Radford, G. H.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lough, Thomas

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southamptn)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Wardle, George J.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Waring, Walter

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Rees, J. D.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Maclean, Donald

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Richards, T. F, (Wolverh'mptn

  Watt, Henry A.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Richardson, A.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal. E.)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Weir, James Galloway

  M'Callum, John M.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Whitbread, Howard

  M'Crae, George

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Whitbread, Howard

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Roberts, John H. (Denbghs.)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  H'Killop, W.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  912

  913

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Winfrey, R.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Percy, Earl

  Ashley, W. W.

  Forster, Henry William

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks. East)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A J (City Lond.)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Pee

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Haddock, George R.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Baring, Capt. Hn G (Winchester)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edmd's

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Starkey, John R.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Liddell, Henry

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)'

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R,

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Dublin, S.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birminghm

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Corbott, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Younger, George

  Doughty, Sir George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Munta, Sir Philip A.

  Fell, Arthur

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Standing Order 48 read as follows:— Each of the said Standing Committees shall consist of not less than sixty nor more than eighty Members, to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, who shall have regard to the classes of Bills committed to such Committees, to the composition of the House, and to the qualifications of the Members selected; and shall have power to discharge Members from time to time, and to appoint
  others in substitution for these discharged. The Committee of Selection shall also have power to add not more-than fifteen Members to a Standing Committee in respect of any Bill referred to it, to serve on the Committee during the consideration of such Bill.
  Amendment—
  "In line 6, after the word 'time,' to insert 'for non-attendance or at their own request'" —made.
  Another Amendment proposed—
  "In line 6, after the word 'discharged,' to insert the words, 'provided that, for the consideration of all Public Bills relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire, the Committee shall he so constituted as to comprise all Members sitting for constituencies
  in Wales and Monmouthshire.'"(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The House divided: Ayes, 351; Noes, 109. (Division List No. 135.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda

  Cleland, J. W.

  Glover, Thomas

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Clough, William

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Alden, Percy

  Clynes, J. R.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

  Gulland, John W.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Ambrose, Robert

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

  Armitage, R.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hall, Frederick

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Cooper, G. J.

  Halpin, J.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth

  Cory, Clifford John

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Harmsworth. R.L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Harrington, Timothy

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth;

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Barker, John

  Crean, Eugene

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Cremer, William Randal

  Harvey, W.E.(Derbyshire, N.E.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Crombie, John William

  Harwood, George

  Barnard, E. B.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Dalmeny, Lord

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Beale, W. P.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Delany, William

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Devlin, Joseph

  Higham, John Sharp

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hodge, John

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hogan, Michael

  Bertram, Julius

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Billson, Alfred

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Black, Arthur W.

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Boland, John

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

  Boulton, A. C. F.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Brace, William

  Elibank, Master of

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Hudson, Walter

  Brigg, John

  Erskine, David C.

  Hutton, Allfred Eddison

  Brocklehurst. W. B.

  Essex, R. W.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Brodie, H. C.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir J. T (Cheshire

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Jackson R. S.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Fenwich, Charles

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Jenkins, J.

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Findlay, Alexander

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Jowett, F. W.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Joyce, Michael

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Gilhooly, James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gill, A. H.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Ginnell, L.

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Laidlaw, Robert

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Snowden, P.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  O'Dowd, John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  O'Grady, J.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Lambert, George

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Lamont, Norman

  O'Malley, William

  Steadman, W. C.

  Leese, Sir. Joseph F. (Accrington)

  O'Mara, James

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Partington Oswald

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Levy, Maurice

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Summerbell, T.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Sutherland. J. E.

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Lough, Thomas

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Philippi, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Pollard, Dr.

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Maclean, Donald

  Radford, G. H.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Tomkinson, James

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down. S.)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Toulmin, George

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Ure, Alexander

  M'Callum, John M.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Verney, F. W.

  M'Crae, George

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Vivian, Henry

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Rees, J. D.

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rendal, Athelstan

  Walsh, Stephen

  M'Killop, W.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Walters, John Tudor

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Richardson, A.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Maddison, Frederick

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wardle, George J.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Waring, Walter

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Roberts, G.H. (Norwich)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Watt Henry A.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Robinson, S.

  Wedgwood Josiah C.

  Massie, J.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Weir, James Galloway

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Whitbread, Howard

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Menzies, Walter

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Rose, Charles Day

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Rowlands, J.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Mond, A.

  Runciman, Walter

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford

  Wiles, Thomas

  Montagu, E. S.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Mooney, J. J.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Morrell, Philip

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Sears, J. E.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Nicholls, George

  Seddon, J.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wilson, P.W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Shackleton, David James

  Winfrey, R.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Nuttall, Harry

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  TELLERS FOB THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell O.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  918

  919

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Haddock, George R.

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edmd's

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thos. Myles

  Cave, George

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick W m.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Liddell, Henry

  Starkey, John R.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Collings, Rt Hn. J. (Birmingh'm

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Thomas, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Craik, Sir Henry

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cross, Alexander

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Williams, Col. R, (Dorset, W.)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Mason, James L. (Windsor)

  Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Caber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Younger, George

  Fell, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Nicholson, W m. G. (Petersfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Forster, Henry William

  Percy, Earl

  Amendment—
  "At end, to add 'Provided that this Order shall not apply to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.'"—made.
  Standing Order 49 read as follows:—
  The Committee of Selection shall nominate a Chairmen's Panel to consist of not less than four nor more than six Members, of whom three shall be a quorum; and the Chairmen's Panel shall appoint from among themselves the Chairman of each Standing Committee,
  920
  and may change the Chairman so appointed from time to time.
  Amendment—
  "To leave out 'six' and insert 'eight.'"—made.
  And, it being after half-past Eleven of the Clock on Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:— Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1); London Government Scheme (Southwark Borough Market).
Also the Certificate that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:—Electric Supply Corporation [H.L.].
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Electric Supply Corporation Bill [H.L.]. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn.
Devonport Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Burnham (Somerset) Pier Bill [H.L.]; Middlesbrough Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Tees Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Byrne's Divorce Bill [H.L.]; Galwey's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Byrne's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. Minutes of evidence and proceedings before this House on the Second Reading, together with the documents deposited in the case, returned from the Commons.
Kendal Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Middlesbrough, Stockton-on-Tees, and Thornaby Tramways Bill [H.L.]; North British Railway Bill [H.L.]; Buckhaven Dock Bill [H.L]; |Birmingham Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Northbrook be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Weardale; read, and agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Regulations for the preliminary instruction of elementary school teachers.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  Return of advances made under the Irish Land Act, 1903, during the period from 1st November, 1903, to 31st December, 1905. Vol I., Part 1.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  NAVAL AND MARINE PAY AND PENSION ACT, 1865.
  Order in Council, dated 26th March, 1907, approving a memorial of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty in regard to the pay of men of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who have qualified in signalling or wireless telegraphy. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  THE STANDING ORDERS.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, I ask your Lordships to make an alteration in your Standing Orders to allow interest to be paid during construction of railways at the rate of 4 per cent. instead of 3 per cent. per annum. This alteration in the Standing Orders has already been made in another place. As your Lordships are probably aware, it is very difficult now to raise capital at 3 per cent., and a very strong representation has been made to the authorities in both Houses of Parliament to allow interest at 4 per cent. I beg to move that your Lordships agree to the proposed alteration in the Standing Orders.
  Moved, That Standing Order No. 128 be amended as follows:—
  [NOTE.—The word in small capitals is to be omitted, and the word printed in Italics is to be inserted.]
  128. A clause shall be inserted in every Railway Bill prohibiting the payment of any interest or dividend out of any capital which the company have been or may be authorised to raise, either by means of calls, or of any power of borrowing, to any shareholder on the amount of the calls made in respect of the shares held by him, except such interest on money advanced by any shareholder beyond the amount of the calls actually made as is in conformity with the Companies Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, or the Companies Clauses Consolidation (Scotland)

  731
  Act, 1845, as the case may be; and except such interest (if any) as the Committee on the Bill may, according to the circumstances of the case, think fit to allow, subject always to the following conditions:—(1) That the rate of interest allowed by the Committee do not in any case exceed THREE four per centum per annum; (2) That interest be allowed to be paid in respect only of the time allowed by the Bill for the completion of the railway, or such less time as the Committee think fit; (3) That payment of interest be not allowed to begin until the Railway Company have deposited with the Board of Trade a statutory declaration by two of the directors and the secretary of the company to the effect that two-thirds at least of the share capital authorised by the Bill, in respect whereof interest may be paid, have been actually issued and accepted, and are held by shareholders, who, or whose executors, administrators, successors, or assigns, are legally liable for the same; (4) That interest do not accrue in favour of any shareholder for any time during which any call on any of his shares is in arrear; (5) That the aggregate amount to be so paid for interest be estimated and stated in the Bill, and be not deemed capital within Standing Order 112; (6) That notice of the company having power so to pay interest out of capital be given in every prospectus, advertisement, or other document of the company inviting subscriptions for shares, and in every certificate of shares; and (7) That the half-yearly accounts of the company do show the amount on which, and the rate at which, interest has been paid. And the company may be authorised by the Bill to pay interest accordingly, but not further or otherwise.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  MUNICIPAL REPRESENTATION BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD COURTNEY OF PENWITH: My Lords, I ask leave to postpone the Second Reading of this Bill until Monday next. I apologise to any noble Lords who have been inconvenienced by coming down to-day, and I take the opportunity
  732
  of saying that I shall definitely move the Second Reading on Monday.
  Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.

  ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH):My Lords, I do not propose to make any speech in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. There is nothing novel in its character. Certain Amendments have been rendered necessary by the Act of last year, and I have caused a Memorandum to be issued which is now on the Table of your Lordships' House explaining these Amendments. They are all of a drafting, and in some cases of a technical, character, and I do not think I need detain your Lordships further in moving the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.