Sitting of 27 June 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Hampstead Garden Suburb Bill. As amended, considered. Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
Hull and Barnsley and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Hull and Barnsley Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill [Lords]: As amended, considered; an Amendment made; Bill to be read the third time.
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Sheffield District Railway Bill [Lords]. As amended, to be considered upon Friday.
Trent Navigation Company Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Bill [Lords]; Dover Corporation Bill [Lords]; Folkestone and District Electricity Supply Bill [Lords]; Portsmouth Water Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill [Lords]. To be read a second time to-morrow.
Truro Gas Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
Penllwyn Railway and Road Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Report to be upon the Table, and to be printed.

PETITIONS.
  ADVERTISEMENTS REGULATION BILL.
  Petition from Wandsworth, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against; from Cradley; Ferring; Gonalston; Kingston (Sussex); Preston, East; Tuck Hill, Alveley; Warleggan; Warnham; and Wimbledon; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from Aldershot; Bolton (two); Criftins (two); Ellesborough (two); Facit (two); Martindale; North Ockendon; Sanderstead; Shawforth (two); and, Tardebigge; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions from Glasgow, against; to lie upon the Table.
  INFANT LIFE PROTECTION.
  Petitions for alteration of Law; from Bristol; and, Leicester; to lie upon the Table.
  MUNICIPAL POWERS BILL.
  Petition from Cheltenham, against; to lie upon the Table.
  POISONS AND PHARMACY BILL [LORDS].
  Petitions for alteration; from Bristol, East; Brixton (two); Carmarthen and Llanelly (two); Glasgow; Harrow; Lancaster; Midlothian (two); Preston (two); Walthamstow; Wanstead; West Sussex; and, Wimbledon; to lie upon the Table.
  STREET BETTING BILL.
  Petition from Wandsworth, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  STREET BETTING BILL [LORDS].
  Petition from Wandsworth, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SUNDAY TRADING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Paper [presented 26th June] to be printed. [No. 217.]
  MALTA.
  Copy presented, of Correspondence between the Governor and the Archbishop-Bishop of Malta in regard to the holding of Protestant Mission Services at the Theatre Royal, Malta [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Clergy Discipline Act. Copy of Additional Rules under the Clergy Discipline Act, 1892, dated 25th June, 1906 [by Act].
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Poisons and Pharmacy Bill—Suggested Reference to a Select Committee.
  MR. WINFREY (Norfolk, S.W.): To ask the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that, in addition to the Government Poisons and Pharmacy Bill, there is in the House another Bill for amending the Pharmacy Acts, and that both Bills are objected to in their present form, he will arrange for the two Bills to be referred to a Select Committee, so that a full investigation of the subject matter of the Bills may be assured.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question. I do not think there is any need to refer the two Bills to a Select Committee. The points needing
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  detailed investigation have already been fully considered by a Departmental Committee, and the facts relating to the questions arising on Clause 4 of the Poisons and Pharmacy Bill are already fully known and do not require further investigation by a Committee.

  Publication of Evidence of Committee on Accounts of Local Authorities.
  MR. RADFORD (Islington, E.): To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will cause the Proceedings and Minutes of Evidence already taken by the Departmental Committee on the Accounts of Local Authorities to be printed and published during the Parliamentary recess; and if he will subsequently arrange that representatives of the Press be admitted to any future sittings of the Committee.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) It rests with the Committee to determine on their procedure, and I understand that they decided, at their first meeting, that it would be undesirable to publish the evidence taken by them until the conclusion of their inquiry, or to admit representatives of the Press to their meetings.

  Transvaal Law Affecting Trustees and Estate Duty.
  MR. GROVE (Northamptonshire, S.): To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that, on the death of a trustee in the Transvaal of English domicile, succession and estate duty is levied, although no change in the beneficial enjoyment of the property is involved; and whether he will take steps to bring about an alteration in the laws affecting trusts, and so remove the disabilities under which English subjects holding property in the Transvaal suffer.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I believe that it is the practice in the Transvaal to levy duty in the circumstances described by the hon. Member. I will communicate with the Governor upon the matter.

  Translation into Chinese of Government Proclamations.
  MR. ESSEX: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the differences in the dialects used at the various ports of the Chinese Empire

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  from which coolies have been and are being recruited into South Africa, and that a proclamation in literary Chinese or any one of the various Chinese local dialects would probably be unintelligible to many of the labourers, even when such are at all able to read, he will have steps taken to insure that the intentions of the Imperial Government are clearly understood by the coolies.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) Inquiry will be made as to what further steps may be necessary to ensure that the coolies understand the offer made to them.

  Attacks on Jews in Russia.
  MR. STRAUS: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he could see his way to instruct the British Ambassador at St. Petersburg to report fully as soon as possible upon the circumstances of the recent attacks on the Jews in Russia; and whether such Report could be presented to the House at an early date.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) It would not be desirable that such Reports should be published by His Majesty's Government.

  British Insurance Companies and Mortgages on Irish Land.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will issue instructions and call upon all British insurance companies holding mortgages on Irish land to submit particulars as to these mortgages, the conditions, the amounts, and the rate of interest charged.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) This information is not required to be shown by the companies in their statutory Returns to the Board of Trade, and the Board have no power under the Life Assurance Companies Acts to call for it.

  Protection of Life Insurance Policy Holders.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state what steps the Government intend to take respecting the action of the trustees and the governing bodies of insurance companies for the protection of their policy holders.
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  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Life Assurance Companies Acts do not give the Board of Trade any powers with regard to the trustees or governing bodies of insurance companies, and, as at present advised, I have no intention of initiating fresh legislation for the purpose.

  Brakes on Electric Cars.
  MR. T. DAVIES: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the accident which occurred to an electric tram - car near Highgate Archway on Saturday last, resulting in the death of several persons; and whether, in view of similar accidents of late to cars on steep gradients, he will consider the advisability of instituting an inquiry in order that he may, if he thinks necessary, make more stringent regulations as to brakes of cars running over very steep gradients such as this.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) An inquiry into this sad accident will be held on behalf of the Board of Trade by the chief inspecting officer of railways, and the Question to which my hon. friend draws attention will certainly receive very careful consideration.

  Damage to Crops by Motor Traffic.
  MR. REES: To ask the President of the Local Government Board what steps he intends taking in order to abate the damage to crops and nuisance to the public resulting from motor traffic upon through roads, such as that leading from Shrewsbury to the Welsh coast.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have received complaints as to the damage and nuisance caused by the dust raised by motor cars, and I have communicated them to the Royal Commission on Motor Cars for their consideration.

  Water Supply for Cottages at Baily Hill, Birdbrook, Essex.
  MR. C. E. SCHWANN (Manchester, N.): To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he has been able to ascertain from the Bumpstead Rural District Council whether they have exhausted their powers under The Public Health (Water) Act, 1878, in the unsuccessful attempt made by them to secure

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  a proper supply of water for the nine cottages at Baily Hill, Birdbrook, Essex, whose sole supply at present consists of polluted pond water; and whether, if this be the case, he will consider the advisability of introducing some amendment of the law affecting rural water supplies.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have received from the rural district council a copy of the Report made by the medical officer of health on this subject. I understand that there is a well within 200 yards of the cottages from which the occupiers might obtain water, but that there are certain difficulties in their using the well, and there is the quality of the water to be considered. I am still in communication with the rural district council on the matter.

  Education Bill—Government Amendments to Clause 6.
  MR. RAWLINSON: To ask the President of the Board of Education when he will publish his Amendments to Clause 6 of the Education Bill.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) My undertaking was that the Committee should be left perfectly free to decide whether Clause 6 should remain as in the Bill, or should be altered so as to require the attendance at the schoolhouse of every child during the time allotted to religious instruction. This will be done either upon one of the Amendments already on the Paper or upon some other Amendment which will effect the purpose.

  Education Bill—Financial Proposals.
  MR. RAWLINSON: To ask the President of the Board of Education when he will publish the rules for the distribution of the million pounds referred to in Clause 12 of the Education Bill, and promised by him on 12th May last.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) It was by an oversight in my office, for which I express regret, that the hope was expressed by me (it was not a promise, as the hon. Member suggests), on 10th May† that the regulations for the distribution of the £1,000,000 under Clause 12 of the Bill would be issued very shortly; it was
  † See (4) Debates, clvi., 1479.
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  due to an inadvertent confusion of that matter with the regulations then being drafted in respect of the other new grant for necessitous areas, which were issued a few days later. I am unable to-day to make any statement in regard to the distribution of the £1,000,000. It will necessarily be affected to a certain extent by the decision arrived at only yesterday in this House, that local authorities may, in defined circumstances, be relieved of the duty of maintaining a certain limited number of schools, and will also be precluded from taking any financial burden (which might have occurred under the Bill as introduced) in respect of certain other schools in the shape of payments for rent.

  Dismissed Employees Trading in Opposition to their late Employers—Suggested Legislation.
  MR. HODGE: To ask Mr. Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to cases recently decided, enforcing agreements restraining canvassers and other employees from following after they have left their employment by summary dismissal or otherwise a similar calling within a wide area round large and important towns in the north of England; and whether he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to deal with this matter.
  (Answered by Sir Lawson Walton.) My attention has been called to the cases referred to. The rule of law provides that the Court shall say whether the restriction upon the further employment of a canvasser, or other agent, after the end of his service is greater than is reasonably necessary for the protection of the employer whose service he has left. This is, in my opinion, sound, but the application of the rule may vary in different cases; and if the decisions of the County Courts or other tribunals are unsatisfactory, there is a remedy by appeal. I do not think there is necessity for further legislation.

  Donegal County Council and Army Meat Contracts.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.): To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has received a resolution from the Donegal County Council proesting against the change recently made

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  in the Army meat tender form, under which contractors can supply foreign meat killed at the port of disembarkation instead of native home-bred meat, which was guaranteed by the late Government some years ago, and also protesting against the feeding of Army horses on foreign oats, straw and hay, and calling upon the Secretary of State for War to reconsider his decisions on these subjects in the interests of the taxpayers, ratepayers and employers of the three kingdoms; what reply has he given to this resolution; and what steps, if any, does he propose to take to fulfil official promises which have been violated by the new arrangements.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The resolution mentioned has been received and acknowledged. It is not proposed to depart from the decisions in regard to these matters which have been already communicated to the House.

  Tidworth Barracks—Scavenging Tenders.
  MR. MORSE: To ask the Secretary of State for War what is the meaning of Clause 3 of the form of tender for scavenging, issued for 26th August, 1903, at Tidworth Barracks; is the contractor entitled to be paid the scheduled price on the basis of the number of men for the accommodation of whom the barracks were constructed, or must it be calculated on the number of men actually in the barracks.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Under the contract referred to, the contractor is entitled to receive payment on the number of men in barracks, irrespective of the number the barracks are constructed to hold. Clause 3, which formed part of the contract in force prior to 1903, was inadvertently retained in the new one. If this clause was considered binding, the first part of it would reduce the rate now payable to one-half, a result clearly unacceptable to the contractor. I may add that the schedule of the contract clearly showed that the tender was for the removal of rubbish, etc., at so much per 100 men per month.

  Government Writers' Wages at Weedon.
  MR. GROVE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, if it is at present necessary to make a distinction between the pay of the writers in the Government
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  stores at Pimlico and at Weedon, though the work carried out in each locality is practically the same, he can see his way to grant an annual increment in each case, especially in view of the fact that the rents at Weedon, since 1902, have increased more than 20 per cent.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) An application for increase of pay at Weedon has been received and is under consideration.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Admiralty Flag List.
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can see his way to publishing the Report of the Committee presided over by Lord Goschen in 1902, which Lord Selborne informed Parliament was to assist the Admiralty in devising a remedy for the absence from the Flag List of a due proportion of younger officers.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): The question of the publication of the report of Lord Goschen's Committee has been decided on several occasions by previous Boards of Admiralty in the negative. The present Board do not intend to reverse the decision of their predecessors.
    MR. BELLAIRS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Selborne twice intimated to Parliament an intention to reduce the age for promotion, while he himself said yesterday it had been raised for senior officers?
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I do not remember anything about Lord Selborne's statement and I did not mean to intimate that the age had been raised.

    Discharges from Woolwich Arsenal.
    MR. CROOKS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many, if any, men it is proposed to discharge from the Arsenal, Woolwich, and why are notices being served upon men of long service who have been working three-quarter time for six months; is it possible to say when the

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    men will resume full time again, in view of the amount taken in the Estimates for the year.
    THE SECRETAEY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,): It is difficult at the present moment to estimate the number of discharges which will be necessary but it is hoped that they will not exceed 320 men and boys. The least efficient men will be discharged first. In many cases with long service men there is no suitable work on which they can be employed, and their discharge is consequently unavoidable. It is not clear to which shop the latter part of the question refers, but in the shell factory there is no present prospect of resuming full time.

    Fourth Battalion Worcestershire Regiment.
    MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War on what date the 4th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment left Egypt.
    MR. HALDANE: This battalion left Egypt on the 9th June.

    British Central Africa—Labour Contracts.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to introduce any method of enforcing contracts for labour in British Central Africa otherwise than by a civil suit under the existing law.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): The question whether magistrates shall not be given power to inflict penalties on natives for breach of contract, similar to those exercised by magistrates in some of the South African colonies, is under the consideration of the Commissioner whose recommendations will be submitted for the approval of the Secretary of State.

    Canadian Emigration Bounties.
    MR. HAZLETON (Galway, N.): I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will inquire from the Canadian Government how long its system of paying £1 per head to shipping agents in Ireland for emigrants to Canada has been in force; what is the
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    total amount of money that has been expended in this way in Ireland by the Canadian Government; and whether the Canadian Government will supply information as to the names and addresses of those shipping agents in Ireland to whom it has paid any such money during the past five years.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The Canadian Government will be asked for the information which the hon. Member desires to obtain.

    Ceylon Pearl Fisheries.
    MR. SMEATON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can explain the circumstances under which the late Colonial Secretary, on December 1st, 1905, on the eve of the general election, sent to the Governor of Ceylon a Draft Ordinance, prepared by himself, sanctioning the lease of the pearl fisheries for twenty years at an annual rental of £20,666 to a London Company, and expressing the hope that the Legislative Council would pass the Ordinance; whether it is usual to exercise such pressure in a matter of purely domestic concern to the Colony and in no way of an Imperial character; why the Ordinance was not left to be prepared and published in the ordinary way by the responsible authorities in the Colony; why the words with the advice * * * of the Legislative Council were inserted in the Preamble to the Ordinance, seeing that the Legislative Council do not appear to have been asked for nor to have given advice, and, seeing that only the official Executive Council were consulted, why the lease was antedated January 1st, 1906, although the Ordinance was not passed till February 27th; and whether this antedating has resulted in the surrender of over £30,000 of Colonial revenue to the lessees; how it is that, although tenders for the concession were not invited and no official publicity was given to it, a number of persons of various nationalities interested in the Transvaal gold mines were enabled to learn of the value of the concession and to obtain shares in it.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The correspondence presented to Parliament shows that the late Secretary of State forwarded a draft of the lease to the Governor on

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    October 4th last, when he stated that the solicitors on both sides would now prepare a preliminary agreement and revise the draft lease from a legal point of view. This was done, and the documents were sent out on December 1st. The reasons for expressing the hope that the Legislative Council would pass the measure are given in the despatch itself, and the Secretary of State does not consider that any undue pressure was put on the Council. A condition of the provisional agreement was that the lease should be confirmed by a special Ordinance to be passed in the terms set out in a schedule to the agreement. The draft of the Ordinance was, therefore, necessarily prepared in this country. The words are a necessary part of any legislative enactment. It was expected that a decision would be taken before the beginning of this year's fishery, but it was understood throughout the negotiations that, if this should prove impracticable, the fishery of 1906 would be conducted by the Government on account of the syndicate. The Ceylon Government informed the Legislature on the Second Reading of the Ordinance that if it was passed, the lease would be antedated to January 1st, 1906. I may add that this arrangement enables the company to have the advantage of earlier possession of the lease, which will terminate a year earlier. The allotment of shares in the company is a matter which concerns the directors, and the Secretary of State can obviously have no information as to the advantages which enabled or the reasons which induced any particular individuals to apply for shares.
    MR. SMEATONasked why was such secrecy observed throughout the negotiations down to the end of 1905; how was it that the people of the colony only ascertained that the lease was about to be granted through rumours in circulation; and why at the Third Reading of the Bill was discussion of the details of the lease not permitted?
    MR. SPEAKERsaid notice should be given of Questions on matters of detail.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEasked whether Sir West Ridge way took any part in the negotiations during the term of his Governorship.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I think it is unnecessary to say he took no part in the negotiations loading to this lease during the time he was Governor. More than a year elapsed between his leaving Ceylon and the granting of the lease.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.)said the question was—Did he utilise his knowledge obtained as Governor in arranging the lease, and was that right and proper?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Pay of Officers in India.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will state in how many departments the rates of pay of the superior officers in India have been increased during the last four years; what is the number of officers in each department benefiting by the new rates; and what is the additional annual charge imposed upon the revenues of India by these increases.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. MORLEY,): I will ask the Government of India to prepare a statement giving the information asked for.

    Indian Government Appointments.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will lay upon the Table a Return showing all new posts with a salary of £400 and upwards a year, created by the Government of India during the last seven years, together with the names of the officers at present holding these appointments.
    MR. MORLEY: The labour involved in preparing a Return for seven years would be very great, but I have no objection to giving lists of appointments and salaries for the last four years, as in the Return asked for in the previous Question. Owing to the changes constantly taking place in the personnel list of the names of the officers holding the appointments would be of slight value, and I do not propose to include them. Lists are periodically published from which they may be ascertained.

    Indian Excise Administration.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the Excise Administration in India has been considered by the Government of India; and whether this Report, with a summary of the evidence, will be circulated to Members of Parliament before the debate upon the Indian Budget.
    MR. MORLEY: I have ascertained from the Government of India that the Report has not yet reached them, and that it is now not expected to be ready until at earliest the end of July.

    Public Processions in Bengal.
    DR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that, acting under the recent circular of the Government of Eastern Bengal and Assam, which revokes the orders prohibiting the cry of "Bande Materam," but authorises the police to require by general and special notice that licences should be taken for processions in public places, the district superintendent of police of Rungpore has issued a notice that licences are to be taken for every procession and every meeting to be held in a public place; and whether in view of the pledges given to this House restoring to the people of the province the right of public processions and public meetings, subject only to interference to stay actual or imminent breaches of the peace, he proposes to take any action in the matter.
    MR. MORLEY: The special restrictions on processions having been withdrawn, the instructions of the Local Government are that licences under the ordinary law should not be withheld unless there is a serious risk of disturbance of public tranquillity. I have no information as to the case described in the Question, but I will take whatever steps may appear to me necessary to ensure that these instructions are not disregarded.
    MR. REES: Was not the cry "Bande Mataram" originally assigned as a war cry to the Hindoo Sanyasis who rose against the Government in Bengal, and is not its use therefore likely to induce
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    breaches of the peace between Hindoos and Mahomedans?
    MR. MORLEY: I do not know the origin of the phrase, but I will inquire.

    The Partition of Bengal.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will lay upon the Table any despatch or papers which will illustrate the difficulties with which the Government of the new province of Eastern Bengal has had to contend in consequence of the different attitude towards the creation of that province evinced by a section of the Hindus, who are the minority, and by the Mahomedans, who are the majority of the population.
    MR. MORLEY: As soon as I receive full official reports on this subject, for which I have telegraphed to the Government of India, I will at once consider the question of laying Papers on the Table.

    Estate Duties.
    MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what other duties than the formal business connected with estate duties are performed at probate registries; and what there is in such duties which collectors of Inland Revenue and their staff would not be competent to undertake.
    I beg further to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the annual cost of the Government Estate Duty Office at Somerset House, which is £97,367, and to the fact that under the same roof, and subject to private patronage, there is the Principal Probate Registry, at an annual cost of £34,956, with officials not responsible to the Government; that in the latter office there is one registrar, at a salary of £1,600 a year, and two others, with salaries rising to £1,500 a year; that only routine duties are performed, which are more highly paid than in the Estate Duties Office, where the real work is done, the head of which is in receipt of £1,200 a year; will he inquire into the matter and take steps to end the Probate Registry and to effect a saving of public money.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fifeshire, E.): I would ask my hon. friend to allow me to reply to the two Questions as one. The duties of the Registrars and other officers of the Principal Probate Registry are absolutely distinct from those of the officers of the Estate Duty Office and necessitate considerable technical knowledge of the law. The duties include dealing with applications for representations to the estates of deceased persons, which involve questions of validity of wills, domicile and foreign law, hearing summonses in probate actions and divorce suits, taxation of costs, passing administrators' and receivers' accounts, and dealing with references as to alimony, variation of settlements and ownership of property under the Married Women's Property Acts, and completion of Orders made by the Court. The officers in the District Probate Registries have similar duties as to application for grants of probate in the district registries.
    MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any official information showing that the examination of estate affidavits, at headquarters, and the disregard of local knowledge possessed by Revenue officers, is responsible for leakage of revenue, especially in a case in which duty was paid on £132,300 in 1898, in respect of an estate which, in 1900, was floated with a capital of £450,000, when profits were sufficient to pay all preference charges and give 8 per cent, to ordinary shareholders and to provide for a reserve fund; will he say what inquiry was made at the time in this case, in which the loss to the revenue appears to have been something like £20,000; will he say whether the sum of £450,000 represents the whole value of the estate in question; if not, what was the declared value of the remainder; what inquiry was made in respect of it; how such inquiry came about, and what was the result; and will he cause inquiries to be made as to whether there have been any other cases of inaccurate Returns to which the attention of the department has been drawn.
    MR. ASQUITH: In the case to which my hon. friend refers, extreme care was taken by those responsible to arrive at a correct valuation of the estate, and full
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    use was made of the local knowledge available. The particular item of property alluded to in the Question consisted of the interest in an enterprise of a precarious kind, the value of which lay almost entirely in good will. To determine the market value of such a property must necessarily be speculative, and it was of course impossible to foresee that a company would be formed to take over the business. This, in fact, did not occur till more than two years after the death of the owner; had the purchase been effected sooner, the valuation would have been corrected. As there appears no ground for questioning the correctness of the values assigned to the remaining items of the estate in question, I see no reason for adopting the unusual course of disclosing particulars in regard to them.

    Discharges of Criminal Lunatics.
    MR. MARNHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the recent murder at Camberley, and the propinquity of His Majesty's Broad-moor Criminal Lunatic Asylum, greater care will in future be taken to ascertain that prisoners before being discharged can, with safety to the general public, be allowed at large.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.): I can assure the hon. Member that there is no ground for the suggestion that there is any want of care in discharging criminal lunatics from Broadmoor. If a lunatic is confined "during His Majesty's pleasure"—so that he can be discharged only by the Secretary of State's order—the utmost care is taken (in the few cases where the question of release can be entertained at all) to ascertain that the patient's recovery is of a permanent character, and that he can be allowed at large without danger to the public. An undertaking is obtained from some trustworthy relative or other person to look after the patient and to report periodically how he is, and, if any sign of relapse is reported, the discharge is revoked and the patient brought back. There are, however, some criminal lunatics not detained during His Majesty's pleasure, but under sentence for a definite term only. These cannot, generally speaking, be detained in Broadmoor after the sentence expires; they have to be

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    removed to local asylums and then come under the ordinary lunacy law, and I have no longer any control over their discharge, which rests with the local asylum authorities.

    Tramcar Accidents.
    MR. MYER (Lambeth, N.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the recent accident occasioned by an electric tramcar, while descending Highgate Hill, getting beyond the control of the driver, and by which three people lost their lives and many were seriously injured, and, considering the number of street accidents of daily occurrence occasioned by the ineffective brake power now employed on tramcars, he will institute an inquiry with the object of obtaining the opinions of the highest authorities on the subject, with a view to compelling the use on tramcars of the most instantaneous and efficient method of arresting the progress of a tramcar.
    MR. J. HENDERSON (Aberdeenshire, W.): I beg at the same time to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state with what brake the electric car, which caused the accident at High-gate on Saturday last, was fitted; and whether the cars to which similar accidents happened at Swindon and Huddersfield this year were fitted with the same brake; and, if so, what steps he intends to take to have efficient brakes fitted to all electric cars.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (MR. LLOYD-GEORGE,): In the case of the Huddersfield and Swindon accidents of this year and also of the Highgate accident, I am informed that the cars were fitted, in addition to the ordinary hand-brake, with modern power-brakes, in compliance with the Board's regulations. Both the Swindon and Highgate accidents are now the subject of inquiries by officers of the Board of Trade, and until their reports are received I cannot say what lessons can be learnt from them in regard to brakes; but the question will certainly receive the most careful consideration on the part of the Board and their technical advisers.
    MR. MYERasked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that, according to expert evidence given in April
    932
    last in reference to an accident in Gold-hawk road, an electric car travelling at four miles an hour could not be stopped under forty-five feet.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was not aware of that.
    MR. WATERLOW (Islington, N.)asked if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the magnetic brake with which this car was fitted became inoperative when the wheels of the vehicle skidded, as probably they did in this case, and caused the accident.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid no doubt that point would be inquired into.
    MR. CAIRNSasked whether the question of compulsory stopping places on steep gradients would be inquired into.
    MR. SHACKLETONasked whether any use on a steep incline was made of the rail brake—a brake acting on the rail—in which the weight of the car was brought to bear on the action.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he would call attention to both these points.

    Island of Cumbrae Steamer Service.
    MR. BARRIE (Londonderry, N.): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the letter of the railway companies conducting the steamer service between the mainland of Scotland and the Island of Cumbrae, threatening the withdrawal of the steamers at the end of this month unless the present dispute as to pier dues is settled on the companies' terms; and whether, in view of the inconvenience to the public which is threatened by the withdrawal of the steamers, he will put himself in communication with the parties concerned, and suggest that the service should be continued and all matters in dispute be referred to an arbitrator to be appointed by the President of the Board of Trade.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Yes, Sir. This matter has been brought to my attention, and the Board of Trade are in communication with the companies concerned. The companies have not, however,

    933
    so far consented to accept the suggestion mentioned.

    Vagrancy Committee's Report.
    MR. MARNHAM: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the recent murder at Camberley, and still more recent murderous attacks in the same locality, the Government are considering the desirability of giving effect to the recommendations with regard to tramps, contained in the Vagrancy Committee Report, issued earlier in the session.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): The Report of the Departmental Committee on this subject is receiving the consideration of the Government; but it will not be practicable to propose legislation with regard to it during the present session.

    Education Act—School Efficiency.
    DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education what securities, if any, it is proposed to take to secure that any school contracted-out under his Amendment to Clause 4 of the Education Bill shall not fall below the level of educational efficiency demanded of the provided schools in the same area.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.): It would seem that the provisions of the Code, as, for instance, Article 25 (b), will effectually secure what the hon. Member refers to.

    Contracted-out Schools.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether any school, contracted-out under his Amendment to Clause 4 of the Education Bill, would be permitted to fall back to the system of one-man management; and, if not, whether he can state what arrangements, if any, it is proposed to take in respect to the management of such school.
    MR. BIRRELL: The Government are most anxious to avoid any possibility of these schools falling back into a condition of things in which their management is in the hands of one individual. It is already laid down, in Article 51 (b)
    934
    of the Code, as a condition of the payment of grants, that every public elementary school, not maintained by a local education authority, must have a responsible body of managers. This Article continues in the Code, and as it will apply to the schools referred to by the hon. Member, I think adequate security is provided against the danger to which he refers.
    DR. MACNAMARA: Will the local authority managers be continued in office?
    MR. BIRRELL: I do not think so.
    LORD BALCARRES: Will the Amendments on the Paper re-establish something analogous to the old boards of management?
    MR. BIRRELL: I do not think so.
    LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.): Has the right hon. Gentleman considered whether a State-aided school will be a public elementary school?
    MR. BIRRELL: That is a point which I think is in doubt at the present time. If it is a public elementary school, of course the conditions of the Code will apply to it. If it is not, there may be a gap in that respect, and I should have to see that it was altered.
    SIR E. CARSON: When will the right hon. Gentleman put down his Amendment on that point?
    MR. BIRRELL: I do not know; I have not made up my mind.
    SIR E. CARSON: Will it be before or after the closure?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Pupil Teachers' Travelling Expenses.
    MR. ARMITAGE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether a grant will be made to the county borough councils, similar to that to be made to the county councils, of £2 per year for travelling and other expenses of pupil teachers, seeing that in a scattered county borough area the costs to the pupil teachers are often in excess of those in a county area.
    MR. BIRRELL: The Board are unable to accede to the suggestion of the hon. Member.

    Holyrood Park.
    MR. GULLAND: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works if when he goes to Edinburgh to inspect the Law Courts he will visit Holyrood Park, and consider whether some money can be spent in making smoother roads and in replanting with grass or whin some of the slopes, notably that below Salisbury Crags.
    THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,): Yes, Sir.

    Meteorological Science Grant.
    MR. YOUNG (Cavan, E.): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what progress, if any, has been made in meteorological science in this country, within late years, to justify the Department in the expenditure of £15,000 per annum; and can he say whether in this region of occult experiment the nation is receiving good value for its money.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.): The annual Reports of the Meteorological Office which are presented to Parliament contain a record of the work of the office and of the allocation of funds. The hon. Member will find in the last Report a brief history of the work of the office since it received a Parliamentary Grant. Only a comparatively small proportion of the grant is applied to experimental work, the greater part being devoted to the normal work of the office, viz., the meteorology of the ocean, forecasting and storm warning, and land meteorology. The answer to the last part of the Question is in the affirmative.

    Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew.
    MR. BRANCH: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will give a detailed Return of all plants sent out from the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, to botanic and private gardens during the past five years, together with those received in exchange and otherwise during the same period.
    SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.): I have ascertained that the preparation of the proposed Return would entail considerable labour and expense, and, as at present advised, I scarcely think that its issue would be attended with any commensurate public utility. Perhaps, however, my hon. Friend would confer with me personally on the subject.

    Ecclesiastical Commissioners, South London Estate.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for East Bristol, as Church Estates Commissioner, whether he will say if any of the buildings recently erected by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in South London will be used for the sale of beer, wine, or spirits; and, if so, how many.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE (Bristol, E.): None of the newly-erected buildings will be so used. On the other hand, one fully licensed public-house and three beer houses on the site of the new buildings have been suppressed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for East Bristol, as Church Estates Commissioner, whether he will say if the Ecclesiastical Commissioners make any condition in connection with those places on their estates which are, with their assent, licensed for the sale of beer, wine, or spirits as to the non-employment as barmaids of women other than the wife or daughters of the person holding the licence; and, if not, whether they will do so in future.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: No such stipulation is made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners nor do the Commissioners think it would be well for them to make a condition the performance of which it would not be in their power effectually to control.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for East Bristol, as Church Estates Commissioner, whether he will grant a Return of all public-houses and beer-houses on the estates of Ecclesiastical Commissioners, the Return to state the name and locality, the approximate value to the Commissioners,

    937
    the date of the lease or of the last extension or renewal of it, and the date when the lease will expire.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: The Ecclesiastical Commissioners are not prepared to make the suggested Return.

    Colonel Malone's Westmeath Estate.
    MR. GINNELL (Westmeath, N.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that Colonel Malone's Baronstown estate, Westmeath, was inspected for sale in July, 1905; that subsequently one memorial was lodged with the Estates Commissioners with reference to trustees, and another asking certain untenanted farms to be divided among people in need of land; what causes the delay in attending to these matters; and, if collusive tenancies have been created, what are the dates of the agreements creating them.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE, Aberdeen, S.): The Estates Commissioners inform me that the estate in question was inspected in May and June, 1905. The memorials referred to were received in February last and have been made the subject of a special report by the inspector, which report is at present under consideration. There has been no avoidable delay in dealing with this matter. The Commissioners are not aware of any cases of collusive tenancies on this estate, and it would appear from the documents lodged that in none of the cases of the non-judicial tenants were any of the tenancies created since 1901.

    Irish Land Valuation—John Casey's Holdings.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the qualifications and experience of Mr. Thompson, land valuer, and the name of the person on whose recommendation he has been employed; on what ground has the Land Commission, in the case of Battersby, landlord, John Casey, tenant, Mullingar rural district, Westmeath, record No. 359, increased the area of the farm and increased the rent, notwithstanding the sworn evidence of competent valuers and of competent surveyors after a chain survey; does the law or do the rules extend to empowering the Land Com-
    938
    mission to make a tenant pay for land he has not got; and, if not, will the true area and true rent, as ascertained by the county court, be restored.
    MR. BRYCE: Mr. Thompson, who had been assistant Commissioner since May 22nd, 1890, was in 1903 appointed an assessor under the Land Act of that year as being a person of skill and experience in agriculture. He had for several years before appointment as assessor acted as appeal valuer to the Land Commission. His qualifications, when originally appointed, are stated in Parliamentary Paper No. 151 of 1902. I have no information as to the name of the person, if any, on whose recommendation he was appointed an assistant Commissioner. I am informed by the Land Commission that the particular case referred to in the Question was regularly heard on appeal and judicially decided in July, 1905, and the Commissioners hold that it would be irregular on their part to discuss the facts or evidence in such a case in answer to a Question.
    MR. GINNELL: Seeing that the area was settled by the County Court Judge, will the Land Commissioners consent to a survey?
    MR. BRYCE: Before answering that I must communicate with the Land Commission.

    The Featherston-Whitney Estate.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland who is the purchase inspector on behalf of the Estates Commissioners in Westmeath; how soon will the Featherston-Whitney estate, Newpass, Rathowen, be inspected; and will labourers and applicants for enlargement of holdings on and adjoining the estate be informed of the date, and be seen by the inspector.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that their inspectors are not permanently assigned to districts, but are frequently changed from one district to another. The estate referred to will probably be inspected early next year. It is the practice of the inspectors to give due notice of their intended inspection to the tenants of the holdings,

    939
    and also to applicants for untenanted land when they consider it necessary.

    Irish Intermediate Education Board.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL (Kerry, W.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the action of the intermediate board in refusing to obey a Resolution of the House of Commons on a subject which the Irish people feel strongly on, and also seeing that this Board and the national board are unrepresentative and independent, he will appoint a Committee to inquire into and report on the possibility of getting a board appointed by the Irish people to manage primary, secondary, and technical education.
    MR. BRYCE: Since the hon. Member gave notice of this Question, I have fully informed him of the facts in reply to a Question put by him on Monday.† It is not the case that the Board of Intermediate Education refuse to obey the Resolution of the House. I have told the hon. Member that three or four times already.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last part of my Question.
    MR. BRYCE: That deals with a much larger Question.

    Value of Tenant's Interest.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will get the Department of Agriculture to ascertain whether the tenant's occupation, interest, and improvements, when protected by the Land Act of 1881, have been sold at as high a price as the landlord's interest in the holding; and will the Department ascertain, for the information of this House and the guidance of the Estates Commissioners and their inspectors, what has been the average price of this tenant's property, in normal cases, in each county each year, during the last ten years, or at least since the Department was founded.
    MR. BRYCE: I am not prepared to ask the Department of Agriculture to go outside its proper sphere, and undertake enquiries in connection with the Land Act of 1903, the administration of which
    † See Col. 605–6.
    940
    has been assigned by Parliament to the Estates Commissioners.

    Land Purchase Inspectors.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when does he expect that the Return relating to land purchase inspectors will be ready.
    MR. BRYCE: It is anticipated that this Return will be ready in the course of a few days.

    Cleaver Estate, County Roscommon.
    MR. HAYDEN (Roscommon, S.): I I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the tenants of the Cleaver estate, Lisagallon, county Roscommon, have purchased their holdings under the Act of 1903; whether the purchasers include Mr. James D. O'Connor, an extensive landlord in the county, for a large grazing farm on this estate; whether the money has been actually advanced in respect of this holding; and, if not, whether the Estates Commissioners will take into consideration the advisability of acquiring it for distribution amongst the small tenants on the estate.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that an originating application in respect of the sale of this estate was lodged in June, 1905. The advances, however, have not yet been sanctioned, nor has the estate been inspected. Amongst the purchasing tenants is Mr. J. D. O'Connor, who holds a farm of 138 acres at a judicial rent fixed in 1887. When the estate comes before the Commissioners for ruling, they will, they inform me, consider the suggestion contained in the latter part of the Question.

    Great Seal of Ireland.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE (Wexford, N.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the arms represented on the Great Seal of Ireland are those of England, whereas the arms represented on the Great Seals of England and Scotland are those of those countries; and if he will take the necessary steps to have the arms of Ireland, and not those of England, represented on the Irish Great Seal.
    MR. BRYCE: I have referred this Question to the Lord Chancellor's Department, and am informed that prior to the Union between Great Britain and Ireland the Great Seal of Ireland was similar in general character and design to that of Great Britain, but differed from the latter by bearing the distinguishing mark of a harp crowned; and it would appear that, neither on the passing of the Act of Union nor since, has any change been made in the Great Seal of Ireland, so that this distinguishing mark still remains, although the arms which are represented on the Seal are the same. I understand that the Royal Arms cannot be altered in Ireland without a proclamation by His Majesty in Council.

    Birth Certificate Fees.
    MR. SLOAN (Belfast, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a charge of 3s. 7d. is made by the clerks of unions for supplying copies of certificates of births to boys who are desirous of competing in intermediate examinations, while such certificates can be obtained for the sum of 6d. in the ordinary way; and whether, seeing that many boys were debarred from entering the intermediate examinations just held because of their parents' inability to pay the necessary fee, he will consider the advisability of abolishing it altogether in these cases.
    MR. BRYCE: Superintendent registrars are entitled to charge a fee of 3s. 7d. for a certificate of birth, except in cases where special statutory provision is made for the payment of a smaller fee. Thus, in cases in which the certificate is required for any purpose connected with the elementary education, or with the employment, of a child, a fee of 6d. is payable, but the hon. Member is mistaken in thinking that certificates of birth can, in the ordinary way, be obtained for that sum. The Commissioners of Intermediate Education inform me that they would welcome any legislation which would have the effect of lowering the charge for certificates of birth for the purposes of their examinations. The question will receive the consideration of the Government when a suitable opportunity arises.

    Constabulary Fund.
    MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can say what is the total amount standing to the credit of the Constabulary Force Fund; and whether, seeing that this fund only applies to members of the force who joined before 1883, and the fact that the fund is gradually dying out, he will consider the advisability of winding the fund up.
    MR. BRYCE: On March 31st, 1906, the National Debt Commissioners held £228,284, Consolidated Annuities, and £154,000, Local Loans Stock, belonging to the Benefit Branch of the Constabulary Force Fund, and at the same date the Inspector-General held a cash balance of £3,936. The benefit branch is being gradually wound up, and the surplus which may remain after its final liabilities have been discharged is to be surrendered to the Exchequer. For the details of the subject, I would refer the hon. Member to Parliamentary Paper No. 118 of 1891.
    MR. SLOAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of winding the fund up?
    MR. BRYCE: It is being wound up.

    Ardara (Donegal) Evicted Tenant.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners are taking any and, if so, what, steps towards the restoration to his holding of Patrick Keeney, who was evicted, on June 9th, 1887, from Castledoherty, near Ardara, county Donegal, a farm which is still lying unoccupied and in which the tenant is anxious to be reinstated.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they will in due course have inquiry made by an inspector into the application for reinstatement lodged by Patrick Keeney, whose former holding is stated to be unoccupied.

    Irish Local Government Board—Mr. Monteith's Appointment.
    MR. MEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a Mr. Monteith has recently

    943
    been appointed to a position in the Irish Local Government Board Office; can he say what are the necessary qualifications and salary attached to the office now held by Mr. Monteith; did he pass the Civil Service or any other examinations; what was Mr. Monteith's previous occupation; on whose recommendation was the appointment made; over how many existing officers was Mr. Monteith appointed: and if the appointment is permanent and carries a pension.
    MR. BRYCE: I am informed that Mr. Monteith was temporarily employed at a salary of £4 4s. a week, to assist the Local Government Board's inspectors in reporting on sites for labourers' cottages. The appointment of assistant to the inspectors was made in time of pressure to enable the Board to expedite the work of the inspectors. No qualifications have been prescribed for the office in question, which is only a temporary one, and does not entitle the holder to a pension. Mr. Monteith was not appointed over the head of any existing officers and was not required to pass any examination. He was previously employed as assistant private secretary to the late Chief Secretary both at the Irish Office and at the Local Government Board for England. Mr. Monteith was first employed by the Vice-President of the Board upon his personal knowledge of Mr. Monteith's capabilities.
    MR. MEEHAN: Seeing that there are thousands of educated Irishmen constantly leaving the country through want of employment, will the right hon. Gentleman take care that in future these offices shall be filled by Irishmen instead of being handed over to strangers?
    MR. BRYCEsaid it would be dangerous to lay down any general rule. Presumably in these cases preference was given to Irishmen, but a hard and fast rule might be to the disadvantage of Irishmen so far as posts in England and Scotland were concerned.
    MR. MEEHAN: But are there not thousands of Irishman qualified for this position?
    MR. BRYCE: No doubt.
    MR. MEEHAN: Then why not appoint an Irishman?

    Irish Land Commission Staff.
    MR. MEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can say if there are 207 officers on the clerical staff of the Irish Land Commission with minimum salaries from £200 to £70, maximum from £300 to £100; whether a number have over fifteen years service; whether any of these officers possessed the necessary qualifications to discharge the duties of the office to which Mr. Wilkinson, an outsider, was lately appointed; if so, and in view of the want of ability on the part of the staff, will he take steps to raise the standard of qualifying examinations for admission to the service; and can he say on whose recommendation Mr. Wilkinson was appointed, and were his qualifications tested if so, by whom, and the date of the examination.
    MR. BRYCE: I am afraid that I cannot usefully add much to my replies to the hon. Member's Questions of May 3rd and 23rd.† The post to which reference is made is one requiring special qualifications, which Mr. Wilkinson, who is a skilled accountant of many years experience, was found to possess. Before the appointment was made, the qualifications and merits of the existing staff were fully considered, and in appointing Mr. Wilkinson I am informed that regard was had solely to the efficiency of the public service.
    MR. MEEHAN: On whose recommendation was this appointment made?
    MR. BRYCE: I cannot say.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Whoso poor relation is he?

    Dublin Audit Dispute.
    MR. JOHN ROCHE (Galway, E.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that in the mandamus proceedings pending between the auditor of the Local Government Board and the Corporation of Dublin, the Local Government Board for Ireland are represented before the court by the same counsel as invariably appeared for that body during the past ten years, with, as junior, the son of the Attorney General for Ireland in the last
    † See (4) Debates, clvi., 701; clvii., 1278.

    945
    Government; if he will say whether there was a case where, a Tory Government being in power, the Irish Local Government Board drew even one of their counsel from the opposite side; and if he can explain why, in a case of such importance as this to local bodies in Ireland, the Government passed over their own Solicitor-General.
    MR. BRYCE: In the proceedings referred to in the Question, the auditor acts quite independently of the Local Government Board, and is represented by solicitors and counsel of his own selection. The Board are not party to those proceedings, and are represented only by counsel familiar with the special work of the Board with watching briefs. There was, therefore, no occasion for asking a barrister occupying the official position of the Solicitor-General to appear in the present case. It has, I am informed, frequently happened that the Local Government Board have been represented during the past ten years by counsel holding Liberal opinions. I understand that their regular junior standing counsel holds those opinions. When cases of high importance arise, the Board secure the presence, in addition to their usual standing counsel, of the law officers, or one of them.

    Miss Ffrench's Galway Estate.
    MR. JOHN ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on the estate of Miss Kathleen Ffrench, of Monivea Castle, county Galway, agreed on terms of sale in April, 1905; that the request for sale was lodged with the Land Commission in October, 1905; will he say whether the estate has yet been inspected or when it will be; and what are the terms of the tenants' present liability, either to the landlord or the Land Commission.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners have no information that terms of sale have been agreed upon between the landlord and tenants in this case. It is the case that the landlord, in October last, lodged a request that the Estates Commissioners should purchase the estate, and this request is at present under consideration. As no sale appears to have taken place, it is presumed that the tenants' liability to the landlord,
    946
    whatever it may have been, remains unchanged.

    Lord Clanricarde and his Tenants.
    MR. JOHN ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that notices to quit have been served by the Marquess of Clanricarde on ten tenant farmers in Derrygoolan, a congested district of his Galway estate; whether the tenants served with notice to quit have have always paid, and are prepared to pay, their rents; and whether the Government will take any steps to protect these tenants.
    I beg also to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the estate of the Marquess of Clanricarde, in the county of Galway, the tenantry are being harassed for old arrears of rent, accumulated through bad years long ago, and in many other ways; that on this estate the tenantry have by various devices been deprived of all the benefits intended by this House to be conferred on them by recent Irish Land Acts; whether he is aware that, in consequence of those proceedings, a condition of things exists on this estate which is a constant menace to the public peace; and whether the Government will consider the desirability of introducing a special Bill to deal with the situation at present existing on the Clanricarde estate.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge of the facts alleged in these two Questions, and I have, therefore, no official information at my disposal which would enable me to answer the Questions. The Government have no legal power to interfere for the protection of the tenants mentioned. The hon. Member will, I think, appreciate the difficulty there would be in introducing legislation in regard to a particular estate.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)asked whether this was not a matter affecting the Land Commission rather than the Estates Commission, and why, if these people paid their rent, "this man should be allowed to upset the whole community."
    MR. BRYCEdid not suppose that the Land Commission could give him any further information than the Estates Commission. Certainly they had no more power to interfere.
    MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)asked whether the proper people to apply to for information were not the local police. How could a question of this kind come to the knowledge of either the Estates or the Land Commissson?
    MR. BRYCEsaid that he, of course, received reports from the police as to what happened, but, as the hon. Gentleman would understand, there were serious difficulties in the way of making the police report on land conditions.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Are we to understand that Lord Clanricarde, his tenants being perfectly willing to pay their rents, is to be at liberty to evict ten men for no cause whatever—
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is making a speech.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Well, it wants a speech.
    MR. KILBRIDE (Kildare, S.)asked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that not many years ago several Unionists in Ireland suggested that a Bill should be brought in for the compulsory expropriation of Lord Clanricarde.
    MR. ROCHEwished to understand whether these tenants had no redress, and that the only remedy was their own act in the future. He warned the right hon. Gentleman—
    MR. SPEAKER: This is not the time for speeches.
    MR. ROCHEasked if he was in order in saying—
    MR. SPEAKER: No; I am afraid it is not in order to say anything now.
    MR. ROCHEthought he was in order in asking whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware of the consequences that might ensue from the Answer he had just given, and the inference that these
    948
    tenants must rely on themselves for their own protection.
    MR. BRYCE: I am aware of this, that any disorder is the worst thing that can happen in the interests of the Irish tenants.
    MR. KILBRIDE: What can they do?
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Clanricarde has been called in a court of justice a standing menace to the peace of the country?
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: That is what he is.
    MR. KILBRIDE: Will the right hon. Gentleman lend the forces of the Crown to evict the tenants in these cases?
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must give notice of that.
    MR. JOHN ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of John Madden, a tenant of Lord Clanricarde's, in the parish of Portuma, county of Galway; whether he is aware that John Madden had been served with an ejectment on the 28th September, 1905, and decreed that in accordance with the provisions of the Act of 1896, Madden paid two years' rent and costs on the 22nd May, 1906, and thereby stayed the ejectment, and that on the 28th May, 1906, a writ from the Superior Courts was served on Madden, claiming the year's rent and costs; and whether the Irish Government will take any steps to protect tenants from such treatment.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge of the matter referred to, but so far as I can judge from the documents which the hon. Member has sent for my inspection, the facts appear to be substantially as stated in the Question. The Government have no power to interfere in legal proceedings which may be taken by a landlord for the recovery of rent.
    MR. DILLON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this House introduced a special clause into an Act of Parliament

    949
    to protect tenants on this precise information from eviction? Is not this a direct evasion of the Act?
    MR. BRYCE: I have already said that the Government have no legal power to interfere.

    Gethin Estate, County Sligo.
    MR. P. A. MCHUGH (Sligo N.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the case of the Gethin estate, Magherow, county Sligo, a man named Michael M'Loughlin has been dismissed from a position he had held for over twenty years in connection with Ballyconnell farm, and another man named Carroll had been appointed in his place by the inspector of the Congested Districts Board; and whether in view of the dissatisfaction aroused in the district by the action of the Board's inspector, he will bring this matter under the attention of the Board, with a view to the redress of the alleged grievance.
    MR. BRYCE: I have brought this question to the notice of the Congested Districts Board, who will have enquiries made into the matter referred to; and I will in due course apprise the hon. Member of the result.

    Irish Herring Industry.
    MR. BOLAND (Kerry, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the fees collected for branding herrings in Scotland during the year 1905 amounted to £8,070, and that, after allowing for the cost of collection, there was a surplus of £2,627; whether he is aware that during the past twenty-four years the total proceeds of branding fees in Scotland amounted to £176,824, and that, after allowing for the cost of collection, the surplus amounted to £48,588; and whether, in view of the fact that the use of the brand has been of the greatest value for the marketing of Scotch herrings, and that through its institution a sum of nearly £50,000 has been rendered available for the improvement of the fishing industry in Scotland, he will consider the advisability of instituting a brand for Irish cured mackerel and herrings, and of utilising the Irish national trade mark for the purpose.
    MR. BRYCE: The figures quoted by the hon. Member are for the year 1904, and appear to be correct. The question of establishing a brand for Irish fish has been carefully considered. Some years ago the chief mackerel curers informed the Inspectors of Fisheries that they would not adopt a Government brand. Since then a very important herring-curing trade has been established in Ireland, and I am informed, though I can hardly credit it, that Irish cured herrings fetch more than double the price of the best Scotch herrings in continental markets. Moveover, I understand that the best Scotch herrings are not branded at all. If a Government brand for Irish fish were to be paid for out of branding fees, the cost to the curers per barrel would be much greater than in Scotland, both because curing is carried on at a greater number of centres, and because herring curing and mackerel curing take place at the same season in different parts of Ireland. As at present advised, I do not think a brand for Ireland is practicable.

    Luggacurran Evicted Tenants.
    MR. MEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware if the Estates Commissioners, through their inspector, Mr. Cunningham, have appointed Mr. Bates, civil engineer, county Down, to superintend the completion of seven cottages for evicted tenants at Luggacurran; whether, according to the terms of contract, these seven cottages should have been completed last December; whether he is aware if there are two civil engineers (one a Board of Works local inspector), inspectors under the Labourers Acts in the union of Carlow and Athy, resident in the immediate neighbourhood of Luggacurran; were either of them offered the superintendence of the seven cottages; on what grounds was the expense incurred of appointing a special civil engineer for this duty; and what are the terms of Mr. Bates's appointment, salary and expenses.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that the superintendence of the building of the houses referred to is being carried out by their permanent officials, and no special

    951
    appointments have been made in connection therewith. Mr. Bates, who is one of their surveyors, is a non-pensionable officer at a salary of £120 rising to £180 with an allowance of 10s. a day when absent from home on duty. This gentleman, who is a civil engineer, has been superintending under the Commissioners' Inspector the erection of the houses in question, which will be shortly visited and reported on by the senior surveyor of the Commissioners. As to the reasons for the non-completion of the contract at the specified time, namely, March last, I beg to refer to my reply to the hon. Member's Question of 21st May.
    MR. KILBRIDE: Was not the date mentioned in the contract December and not March?
    MR. BRYCE: I am not aware of that.
    MR. KILBRIDE: I am.

    Clanricarde Evicted Tenants.
    MR. JOHN ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, upon the passing of the Land Bill of 1903, about 200 evicted tenants on the Clanricarde estate applied to the Estates Commissioners for reinstatement; how many have been, and how many have got new holdings.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received applications from 131 persons seeking reinstatement upon the estate referred to. The Commissioners have not reinstated any of these evicted tenants in their former holdings, but they have provided three of them with new holdings on a neighbouring estate.

    Woodford Dog License Prosecution.
    MR. JOHN ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether is aware that a man named James M'Mahon was charged on the 14th May at the Woodford petty sessions with having an unlicensed dog in his possession, and that the policeman who summoned him admitted in court that he did not see any dog in his possession, and that in addition M'Mahon and his son denied having any dog; and whether, seeing that M'Mahon was fined 2s. and the costs, the Lord Chancellor's
    952
    attention will be called to the decision of the magistrates who acted on the occasion.
    MR. BRYCE: I beg to refer the hon. Member to my reply to his previous. Question of 28th May,† when I informed him that the sufficiency of the evidence was a matter for the magistrates, and that I could not undertake to discuss the details of the case. I do not think that, any good purpose would be served by calling the Lord Chancellor's attention to the matter. The judicial decisions of magistrates can only be reviewed by courts of law.
    MR. JOHN ROCHE: The man never had a dog at all.

    Irish Lunacy Grant.
    MR. COGAN (Wicklow, E.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the capitation grant to lunatic asylums in Ireland is not paid to the county councils until the year following that in respect of which the expenditure is made, and that owing to the change in the local financial year the asylum committees were obliged to issue demands to the county councils for fifteen months cost of maintenance of pauper lunatics, from 1st January, 1899, to 31st March, 1900; is he aware that a capitation grant was paid in the year 1901 in respect of twelve months service only, from 1st April, 1899, to 31st March, 1900, and no more than a year's grant has since been paid in respect of the subsequent annual service; and in view of the fact that the county councils were obliged to make good the difference of three months' gap, will he see that the councils are recouped from the local taxation account.
    MR. BRYCE: The capitation grant to lunatic asylums in Ireland is paid to the county councils in the year following that in respect of which the expenditure is made on which the amount of the grant is calculated, but the grant is applicable in relief of the rates in the year in which it is actually paid. It is the fact that owing to the change in the local financial year the Asylum Committees were obliged to issue demands to the county councils for fifteen months cost of maintenance of pauper lunatics from 1s
    † See (4), Debates, clviii., 83.

    953
    January, 1899, to 31st March, 1900. It is also the fact that the capitation grant paid in the year 1901 was in respect of of twelve months' service from 1st April, 1899, to 31st March, 1900, and that no more than a year's grant has since been paid in respect of the subsequent annual service. The year's grant paid in 1901 corresponded to the year's grant paid in previous years, the only difference made by the change in the financial year in 1899 being that instead of taking the calendar year as the basis of the grant as had been done previously, the financial year ending 31st March was taken as the basis. I have already informed the hon. Member that as in each year a full year's payment has been made from the Local Taxation Account, no recoupment to county councils is possible.

    STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW.
    MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENdrew attention to the fact that the name of the hon. Member for Mid Cork had not been included among those of the hon. Members added to the Standing Committee on Law to consider the Irish Labourers' Bill. He remarked that the hon. Member was President of the Irish Land Labourers' Association, and was really the only Member elected to the House to represent that class. Obviously if they were to have a voice in discussing the proposed Amendments to the Bill, they ought to have their spokesman on the Committee, and he wished to know how the omission could be remedied.
    MR. SPEAKERsaid the duty of appointing additional Members rested with the Committee of Selection, and it would be undesirable for the House, seeing that it had entrusted that responsible and important duty to the Committee, now to take it out of their hands. In making additions the Committee's duty was to have regard to the special qualifications and capabilities of the Members whom they put on. The hon. Member might approach the Chairman of the Committee of Selection, who in the event of a vacancy occurring might fill it in the way desired by the hon. Member.
    MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: Thank you, Sir. I will act on that suggestion.

    Dissemination of News in War Time.
    MR. ARTHUR LEE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the meeting of representative journalists and newspaper proprietors, held at the Royal United Service Institution on the 21st inst., at which there was a unanimous expression of opinion in favour of restricting or controlling the dissemination of news in time of war, and at which a Committee was authorised to confer with the Committee of Imperial Defence, and to consider any Bill that might be drafted with this object in view; and if he can hold out any hopes that His Majesty's Government will be in a position to introduce a Bill dealing with this subject at an early date.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): The question of restricting the dissemination of news in time of war is being considered by the Committee of Imperial Defence. His Majesty's Government hope to deal with it early next year.
    MR. ARTHUR LEEasked if the right hon. Gentleman would consider the desirability of introducing a Bill—not necessarily for passing this session—at as early a date as possible, that the Press might have the opportunity it desired of giving careful consideration to the Government proposals. It was obvious that such a Bill could not be passed without the consent and co-operation of the Press.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think there are means of communicating the views of the Government otherwise than by introducing a Bill.

    Expiring Laws.
    MR. O'MARA (Kilkenny, S.): I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of repeated declarations of Ministers, he proposes to include the Peace Preservation (Ireland) Act, or any other temporary Irish Coercion Act, in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill this Session.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The hon. Member asked me a similar Question a fortnight ago, and I have

    955
    nothing to add to the reply that I gave to him.†
    MR. O'MARA: I will put it down this day week.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I shall not he in a better position to give an Answer then.
    MR. O'MARA: Then this day fortnight.

    The Dogs Bill.
    MR. MORRELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister when the Government propose to take the Report stage of the Dogs Bill.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend any definite undertaking at the moment. The Dogs Bill comes within that list of Bills as to which neither confident hope nor absolute despair would seem to be justifiable.

    The Agricultural Vote.
    MR. MORRELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Agricultural Vote was not reached as expected last Thursday, and of the importance of allowing time for an adequate discussion of this subject, the Government can see their way to reconsider the arrangements announced on Monday, so as to place this Vote first on one of the allotted days.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am sorry that I cannot see my way to alter the arrangements already announced to the House. We will do our best to give an opportunity for discussion.

    Public Rights of Way.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the frequency with which public rights of way are being closed and access to the open country barred by owners of land, he will take immediate steps, by legislation or otherwise, to protect the public in their enjoyment of these ancient rights.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: My hon. friend is no doubt aware that
    † See (4) Debates, clviii., 971.
    956
    under the Local Government Act, 1894 it is the duty of every district council to protect all public rights of way and to prevent as far as possible the stopping, or obstruction of any such right of way where such stoppage or obstruction would I in their opinion be prejudicial to the interests of their district. In a parish in a rural district the parish council or the parish meeting can put the district council in motion, and. if the district council refuse to take proceedings the county council if petitioned by the parish may act in their place. Moreover, it is laid down in the same Act that no public right of way can be stopped in a rural parish without the consent of the parish council, or parish meeting, and of the rural district council. It is difficult to see what further legislation in the, way of giving powers to local authorities can be desired, but if my hon. friend has any suggestions to make I shall be glad to consider them.

    Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Bill.
    MR. HEATON-ARMSTRONG: I beg to ask the Prime Minister when he proposes to proceed with the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Bill.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I believe that the Standing Committee on Law are to proceed with the Bill to-morrow.

    The Attack on British Officers in Egypt.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he has been made aware that this morning four Egyptians were sentenced to death by the special Court in connection with the unfortunate affair at Denshawi, and I whether he can undertake to obtain a respite of the execution of this sentence until the Foreign Minister has had an opportunity of looking into the circumstances and the evidence given before the Court.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have not heard anything of the circumstance referred to by the hon. Member, but I assure him that he can trust to the discretion and humanity of my right hon. friend the Foreign Secretary and of those on whose opinion he will rely.

    Progress of the Education Bill.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Government had put down an Amendment to Clause 5 of the Education Bill which they might not reach in time to discuss. He desired, therefore, to ask the Minister for Education whether the intention and effect of that Amendment was not to deprive those who in the future, owing to some movement of population or for some other cause, built a school for denominational purposes from having that appeal to the Education Board which was given under Clause 4. That was a question of vital importance for all those who looked forward to the needs that might arise as population increased or moved from place to place.
    MR. BIRRELLsaid the words referred to by the right hon. Gentleman were added for the purpose of making quite plain what might possibly otherwise be obscure, though he did not think so, that the provisions as to an appeal to the Board of Education applied only to existing voluntary schools and were not intended to apply to future schools coming into existence.
    MR. AUSTIN TAYLORasked whether, if a transferred voluntary school under Clause 3, which when transferred was not qualified for the four-fifths facilities, subsequently became qualified, an appeal would lie to the Board of Education.
    MR. BIRRELLreplied that that did not arise out of the question put to him by the right hon. Gentleman, but he would consider it.
    LORD R. CECILasked the Prime Minister whether he was aware that, so far, only three lines out of forty-four in Clause 4 had been discussed in Committee, and that many important questions still remained to be discussed, including the Amendments of the Government; and whether, under these circumstances, he would make arrangements to secure reasonable discussion of the remainder of the clause.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Such arrangements as are possible under what we call the guillotine will, no doubt, be made. We cannot alter that. The
    958
    House has agreed to certain Resolutions regarding the progress of this Bill in Committee, and we cannot depart from those now. But within the time afforded to us it rests rather with Members of the House than with the Government not to spend time on comparatively unimportant Amendments, but to reserve themselves and the time of the House for questions that are of real value and interest.
    LORD R. CECIL: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether, so far, the discussion has been devoted to questions of small importance, and whether he knows that at the time the guillotine Resolutions were passed the Government had not given notice of or put down their Amendments?
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The Amendments put down by the Government, so far from making a larger call upon the time of the House, have made a smaller call. ["Oh."] Yes; because they had the effect of focussing and codifying, as it were, certain important Amendments and suggestions which existed on the Paper at the time in the name of different Members. I am certain that the course taken by the Government in putting down a scheme of Amendments, as it did at the end of last week, has greatly facilitated the proper and regular discussion of this clause.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether among the things that have been focussed and codified by the Amendments put down by the Government he could suggest any Amendment which proposed that there should be a new class of schools called State-aided schools?
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am under the impression that everything included in the Amendments of the Government had been before the House in one form or another before.

SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS (IRELAND) BILL.
Reported from the Standing Committee on Trade, &c, with Amendments.
Report to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 218.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 218.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 277.]

NEW BILLS.
  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
  "To amend the law with respect to Customs Duties in the Isle of Man," presented by Mr. McKenna; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 278.]
  MEAT MARKING (IRELAND) BILL.
  "To provide for Marking of important Meat in Ireland," presented by Mr. Field; supported by Mr. Condon, Mr. Patrick O'Brien, Captain Donelan, and Mr. O'Mara; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 17th July, and to be printed. [Bill 279.]

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  Clause 4:—
  MR. VILLIERSmoved an Amendment the effect of which would be to allow Cowper-Temple instruction to be given side by side with denominational teaching. He said he wished his speech could be as short as his Amendment, but he was afraid that was impossible, as it was only to leave out the word "the" in the second line on page 3. The Amendment might appear a very trivial one, but the Committee would see that it had far-reaching results. There was nothing in the whole of the Bill against Cowper-Temple instruction until they reached this clause. If a school became a transferred school ipso facto Cowper-Temple teaching was allowed. By this clause facilities were granted, under certain conditions, for special religious instruction
  960
  to be given, and the clause then referred to that instruction as the religious instruction of the school that was to say, the whole, not part, of the religious instruction. If the hon. Members would read the clause they would see it inferred that, when once facilities were granted, those facilities would cover the whole field of religious instruction given in the school. As the clause now stood no provision whatever was made for the minority; when facilities were granted the local authority must either turn the children out or allow them to remain—he did not say to be converted or perverted, but verted to another denomination than that to which their parents belonged. But if the clause were without that little word "the" there was nothing whatever to prevent the local authorities from giving Cowper-Temple instruction alongside of denominational teaching if they considered the circumstances warranted it. In the case of a school of 400 children, though it might be able to prove its four-fifths, the local authority might say "why should the minority" (and one-fifth of 400 meant eighty children), "why should these eighty children be compelled to cross perhaps three more dangerous crossings or go another half mile, with the only alternative of becoming little Anglicans or Roman Catholics?" A mother thought more of one dangerous crossing than all the "isms" in the world. In a case of that kind local authorities might easily refuse these facilities, but, on the other hand, if this small word in the clause were omitted they might say, "Yes, we will grant you your facilities, because we find there is another room in the school where Cowper-Temple instruction can be given, and there is nothing in the Bill to prevent it. Here, to his mind, was an Amendment which ought to appeal to, all those in favour of popular control, because it gave the local authority more power to deal with exceptional cases. The ballot mitigated the coercion of the priest, and this Amendment would relieve the coercion of circumstances. He did not believe the local authority would use this power in any frivolous or partial way. The Amendment in many instances would favour the denominations by enabling them to receive facilities which they otherwise would not obtain, and the minority would be protected. He thought the Committee would see that the Amendment had a good deal

  961
  to be said for it. By getting rid of the definite article they could change the clause into a different article. If the Government accepted the Amendment it would go a long way towards converting the irritating "claws" into velvet paws.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 3, line 2, to leave out the word 'the.'"—(Mr. Villiers.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'the' stand part of the clause."
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.)said the Amendment was wholly inconsistent with Clause 4, which, whether people liked it or not, was to secure teaching of a denominational character. The whole object of the clause was to secure that the schools which fulfilled the very rigorous condition laid down in subsection (b) should be allowed to have the denominational teaching which was desired and no other. He did not think they could take into their consideration the question of the minority children for which no provision was made under the four-fifths clause. They went to the school because they liked it, and if they did not wish to they need not go. To accept the Amendment of his hon. friend would be to destroy to a considerable degree the denominational basis and the intention of the clause; therefore it was impossible for the Government to accept it.
  LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)said it certainly appeared to him that the course indicated in the Amendment was a very desirable one to adopt in the interests of a real and true settlement. He felt sure that they would have ultimately
  to come round to that settlement, because there was no other. He hoped that the Government, after carefully considering the matter more fully, would conclude that it was in the interests of that peace which they professed so much to desire that they should accept the solution suggested in the Amendment.
  LORD MORPETH (Birmingham, S.)complained that Clause 4 was so restricted as to be almost valueless. They were told that it had to be so restricted in order to protect the children in single school areas. There was practically no school in England or Wales which had not more than one class room, and more than one teacher, and it would be perfectly easy to take the minority of the scholars into another room, and have them taught separately, without any injustice being done. The Amendment would enable the Government to sweep away one of the worst restrictions in the Clause, namely, that which limited it to certain areas by taking an arbitrary fraction of the parents, and saying that only where that fraction existed should denominational facilities be given. The Amendment made for elasticity and freedom in giving such religious teaching as was desired by the parents of the children.
  MR. ASHLEYconsidered that the Amendment would enable the children in a minority in a four-fifths school to receive religious instruction if their parents wished it.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided. Ayes, 344; Noes, 87. (Division List, No. 157.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Blake, Edward

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Boland, John

  Adkins, W. Rylands

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Brace, William

  Agnew, George William

  Beale, W. P.

  Branch, James

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Beauchamp, E.

  Brigg, John

  Alden, Percy

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Bright, J. A.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Armitage, R.

  Benn, John Williams (Devonp'rt

  Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bennt W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Bennett, E. N.

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Bertram, Julius

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex Romford)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Billson, Alfred

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Chas.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hammond, John

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Cameron, Robert

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Marnham, F. S.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Massie, J.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harmsworth,R. L.(Caithness-sh

  Meagher, Michael

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Harrington, Timothy

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Menzies, Walter

  Chance, Frederick William

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harwood, George

  Mond, A.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Montagu, E. S.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Clough, W.

  Hazelton, Richard

  Morrell, Philip

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Morse, L. L.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Murnaghan, George

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Murphy, John

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Murray, James

  Corbett, CH. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Myer, Horatio

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Nicholls, George

  Cory, Clifford John

  Hodge, John

  Nolan, Joseph

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hogan, Michael

  Norman, Nenry

  Cowan, W. H.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Crombie, John William

  Hooper, A. G.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Crossley, William J.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Brien, William (Cork)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Delany, William

  Jardine, Sir J.

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swans'a)

  O'Dowd, John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras,N.

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Dillon, John

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Kelly,James (Roscommon, N

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Malley, William

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Mara, James

  Duckworth, James

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Duffy, William J.

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Shee, James John

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Palmer, Sir Charles Marks

  Dunne, Major E.Martin(Walsall)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Partington, Oswald

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Paul, Herbert

  Erskine, David C.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lamont, Norman

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Perks, Robert William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lea, HughCecil (St. Pancras, E.)

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Leese, SirJosephF, (Accrington)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Field, William

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Lever,A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Levy, Maurice

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Radford, G. H.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lundon, W.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lough, Thomas

  Reddy, M.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lupton, Arnold

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Gill, A. H.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rees, J. D.

  Ginnell, L.

  Macdonald, J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Richards, Thos. (W.Monm'th)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn,

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Richardson, A.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal,E.)

  Ridsdale, E: A.

  Grove, Archibald

  M'Callum, John M.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Gulland, Hon. W.

  M'Crae, George

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Halpin, J.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

  964

  965

  Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

  Steadman, W. C.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Watt, H. Anderson.

  Robinson, S.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Sullivan, Donal

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Summerbell, T.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Rowlands, J.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Runciman, Walter

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Russell, T. W.

  Taylor. John W. (Durham)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Taylor,Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Tennant,SirEdward(Salisb'ry)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Sears, J. E.

  Thomas,SirA. (Glamorgan,E.)

  Williams. J (Glamorgan)

  Shackleton, David James

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Thorne, William

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Williamson, A.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Toulmin, George

  Wilson, John Durham, Mid)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Verney, F.W.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Vivian, Henry

  Winfrey, R.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Walker, H. De. R (Leicester)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim,S.)

  Wallace Robert

  Woodhouse,Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd

  Snowden, P.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Woodhouse,Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Young, Samuel

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Ward, W.Dudley(Southampton

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Spicer, Albert

  Wardle, George J.

  Whiteley, and Mr. J. A

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Pease.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn.Sir Alex. F

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

  Ashley, W. W.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duncan,Robert (Lanark Govan

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(City Lond.)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fell, Arthur

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Robert

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Forster, Henry William

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Beach,Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S.Ed'mds

  Starkey, John R.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hill, HenryStaveley(Staff'sh.)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt.Hn.Col.W.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lee, ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Chamberlain,Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.)

  Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R.

  Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Younger, George

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Villiers and Viscount Mor-

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  peth.

  Cross, Alexander

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  MR. BIRRELLmoved to insert words in Section 1 (a) requiring that the wishes of the parents in regard to extended facilities for special religious instruction should be ascertained as the result of a ballot taken in accordance with regula-
  966
  tions made for the purpose by the Board of Education. So far as he understood there had been no great opposition in regard to this proposal. He thought the only point they had to consider was whether the Board of Education should

  967
  not be left free to make the rules necessary for taking the ballot. He moved this Amendment because he believed this to be the best way of removing all suspicion as to the result they wished to make plain—namely, that the wishes of the parents had been consulted genuinely and properly, and without extraneous pressure. That was a suspicion which was easily raised in people's breasts, whether it was justified or not. This would be a valuable safeguard of subsection (a). He believed the ballot was generally recognised as the best means now known of getting the unbiassed opinion of a locality. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 3, line 7, after the word 'that,' to insert the words 'as the result of a ballot taken as to the wishes of the parents in accordance with regulations made for the purpose by the Board of Education it appears that.'"— (Mr. Birrell.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURdid not raise any abstract objection to the ballot, but he thought the Government left the matter far too vague. The object of the right hon. Gentleman was to ascertain the wishes of the parents, uninfluenced by any extraneous persuasion or any question of pressure from any extraneous authority. His complaint was that this was a very unfair and unsatisfactory way of getting at the truth in the matter. He thought that, if the Government were reluctant to introduce into the Bill the regulations which they proposed to issue, they ought, at all events, to lay on the Table of the House before the Bill got much further, and certainly before it passed the Report stage, the kind of instructions which would be sent round to the various schools. There were two points in particular to which he attached importance and which he asked the right hon. Gentleman to consider. In the first place, the ballot ought to be taken by a thoroughly independent and impartial body. They should not be a body which had a distinct motive to arrive at one result rather than another. The right hon. Gentleman had truly said that it was very easy to raise suspicion that pressure had been put on individuals in regard to their votes. It was also very easy to raise suspicion that the decision had not been taken fairly, and
  968
  therefore it was very important that the method of taking the ballot should be independent of all parties, including the local authority. There was another and far more important point, and that was as to the kind of question to be put to the parents. The right hon. Gentleman had probably interested himself with the problem of the referendum as applied to political matters in some States. This was the referendum, and as the only answer to the question asked would be "Aye," or "No," everything turned on the form in which the question was prepared. It was absolutely necessary that the question put should be one which really elicited the point whether the parents desired the teaching in a particular school to go on in the future as in the past. The Government ought to tell the Committee in what form they thought the referendum should be put to the parents; it should be in one simple, clear form.
  MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)said he had no objection to the ballot; on the contrary, he favoured it; but he thought the points put by the Leader of the Opposition were of vital importance. Really they could not come to any decision on the matter until they knew what kind of question was going to be put. It was perfectly possible, without any deep design, that the parents might not know what was meant by the question they would have to ballot upon; for example, if they were simply asked whether they desired special facilities under Clause 4. The point put by the right hon. Gentleman was a reasonable and most important one, and they should have, before the Bill passed out of Committee, a draft of the regulations that were to obtain with regard to the taking of the ballot. The question put should be simple and should not be framed with any desire to carry out one particular view. He was sure that the Minister for Education would be able to give an assurance that the ballot would not be taken by people who were thoroughly hostile to the granting of the facilities. There was one other point. In order to take this ballot it would be necessary to keep in every school a complete register of parents. He did not say that that was a very difficult task; but it was absolutely essential to the carrying out of Clause 4,

  969
  whether they had a ballot or not. When he advocated a committee of parents one difficulty that was raised against him was the impossibility of keeping a register of parents. But Clause 4 could not be put into operation at all unless a register of parents was kept very carefully He confessed that if a plan could be devised by which a committee of parents could be fairly elected to represent the schools it would be a very much simpler scheme than that proposed by the Minister for Education.
  MR. STUARTsaid that certain alterations would be necessary in this subsection if the words proposed by the Minister for Education were adopted. So long as Subsection (a) stood as originally framed it would be quite easy to carry it out; but the moment the ballot was introduced it would be impossible to say whether it was four-fifths of the parents or four-fifths of the children. If the ballot of which he approved was introduced, the remainder of the clause must be altered so as to make it possible to determine what was meant by the ballot.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the point raised by the hon. Gentleman was important, and he took shame to himself that he had not seen it before. He was not anxious to find a case against the ballot; but, after all, it was the children they had to consider. The Bill was originally framed on the right lines according to the number of children that would be affected, and not the number of parents. The new proposal entirely destroyed the old form of the clause.
  MR. STUARTsaid that the difficulty could be met by issuing ballot forms according to the number of children.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not know what the rural voter was going to do if he had to deal not only with the ballot but with plural voting. But he thought the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman was well worth considering.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid that the Committee were at a disadvantage in not having before them the regulations for taking the ballot. In
  970
  the Public Libraries Act, if a ballot was taken, another ballot could not be taken until a certain number of years had elapsed. Under this subsection, was the judgment of the parents of a particular locality to be final?
  MR. PERKSsaid that each child would be-supplied with a little voting paper to take home for the purpose of the ballot. The ballot would be according to the number of children and not the number of parents. From the beginning he had been opposed to the clause. He believed it was a bad clause. The more it was examined the more impossible it would be found. He did not agree with the Leader of the Opposition that the number of children should govern this question at all. It should be four-fifths of the parents of the children. The clause would enable a parent if he had six children to give three ballot papers: in one direction and three in another. [An HON. MEMBER: Why not?] It would balance one-half of a family against the other. He mentioned these points to show how hopelessly unsatisfactory the clause was.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid that the animus of his hon. friend the Member for Louth, which was no doubt genuine, was to be judged by his objection to every line and word in the clause. The discussion showed that the Government were wise to leave the matter to be decided by regulations, though he admitted that the regulations should be within the knowledge of the Committee before they parted company with the Bill. He did not agree with what had been said about the local authorities. He could not imagine that the ballot was to be taken away from the local authorities because someone attributed to them a desire that the result should be of a particular kind which would not require them to give the four-fifths facilities. He did not think that that was a fair way of putting it. The ballot-box, once put into operation, provided that the question put was a proper one, was above all suspicion. That had always been the method of the ballot-box. It did not matter who provided it, the ballot-box was not open to the charge of animus. The question

  971
  of importance was that in every part of the country the form of the question should be the same, and that in that sense it should be statutory. The noble Lord the Member for East Marylebone had an Amendment in which he gave his own view as to the form of the question which should be put—a very natural, proper and sensible question, viz.:—
  "Do you wish the religious instruction in the school where your children attend to remain of the same character as it is now?"
  But the feeling of the Government was that, if it were possible, the form in which the question was put should be very closely identified with the form of the Statute itself. He did not say that that was absolutely essential, but it was the view of experts. The subject, however, would be most carefully considered, and an opportunity would be given to discuss the form of the question before they parted with the Bill in this House. In regard to the point raised by his hon friend behind him they had always intended that the parent should have as many ballot balls or forms as he had children, so that the parent of six children should have six times the voting power of the parent of one child. Let them hope that six would be the maximum. He was not putting any limit to the fecundity of the population of the country; he only said that the school age was limited from five to thirteen years, and, therefore, that of itself would limit the number of children of any one parent in average attendance at school at one and the same time. Therefore, there was no difficulty in that way. He insisted that this was a question of the children, and not of the parents. It was the number of children in the schools that determined its denominational character. It was not the parents sitting at home: it was not a question of stocks and roots which were more or less prolific; but a question of the number of children in the schools. If he might use language with which he was formerly more familiar than now, they should decide this question per capita and not per stirpes. He fully recognised the absolute necessity that the question to be put should appear in the regulations, and that it should be one and the same question for all parts of the country; and he would see that the
  972
  regulations were placed on the Table of the House as soon as possible.
  MR. VERNEY (Buckinghamshire, N.)said that the real difficulty underlying this particular part of the subject was the making of regulations on an unstable basis. There could hardly be a more fluctuating and uncertain basis for calculation of the four-fifths than the numbers of children going to a school or leaving it. The parents of four-fifths of the children at a school in August would probably have a very different proportion of the children in September after the summer holidays. What was really wanted to be known was the opinions of a large majority of the parents, not those of their children. The strength of a parent's religious convictions did not depend upon the number of his children at school. The gratuitous introduction of such an extremely unstable basis of calculation of the four-fifths was unfortunate arid would lead to unnecessary confusion in a case where the element of stability was very important to prevent the constant recurrence of religious squabbling.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that they were now discussing the question of the ballot. The point raised by the hon. Member would come later on.
  MR. VERNEYsaid that in that case he would reserve his remarks till a later period.
  SIR E. CARSONinquired whether when the word "parents" was used it meant both parents or only one parent; that was to say, was the mother as well as the father included.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid the word meant the responsible parent under the Act of 1870.
  SIR E. CARSONpointed out that the Act of 1870 did not give any definition of the word "parents." If the Bill were left as it stood, the matter would be quite open, and this would lead to utter absurdity. Supposing there were six children in the family, would there be six votes; and, if so, who was to exercise them the father or the mother?
  MR. BIRRELL: One or the other.
  SIR E. CARSONinsisted that some provision dealing with this matter ought to be inserted in the Bill.
  MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)quite agreed that the Committee should take a strong line upon this matter and see that the questions put to parents in regard to voting were intelligible and such as the rural population could understand.
  LORD R. CECILhoped that the right hon. Gentleman would, in dealing with this matter, be guided by his own common sense and would not take the advice of experts. He could not but regret that the right hon. Gentleman had introduced the ballot in this matter, as he thought the scheme was more workable before than since its introduction, Let him put a difficulty which the Tight hon. Gentleman would see was a Teal one which would arise under paragraphs (a) and (b). Under paragraph (a) it had to be ascertained that the parents of at least four-fifths of the children attending the schools desired the facilities, and under paragraph (b) it had to be ascertained that there was public school accommodation in schools not affected by a permission given under the section for the children attending the schools whose parents did not desire those facilities. That meant that in taking the vote they had to take into account the number of parents of children who were in favour of the continuance of the facilities in the schools, and then the facilities would be afforded if there was school accommodation for the remainder of the children. Let them take the case of a school in which there was no definite accommodation for any of the children in the matter of religious instruction except with regard to those children whose parents were satisfied with the religious instruction already afforded in the school. Because one parent was lazy and failed to record his vote, were the whole of the other children to be deprived of these facilities? The sub-sections assumed that there must be a unanimous vote. He also wished to ask a question as to an Amendment which appeared on the Paper in the name of
  974
  the President of the Board of Education. It ran—
  "Where the local education authority refuse to agree to an arrangement offered to them by the owners of the schoolhouse of an existing voluntary school as respects the use of the schoolhouse, and the school is one in respect of which extended facilities could be granted under this section, and are desired, the owners of the schoolhouse may appeal to the Board of Education, and that Board may, if they think fit, after considering the circumstances of the case, and the wishes of the parents of children attending the school as to the continuance of the school with extended facilities, by order, make an arrangement under this Act with respect to the use of the schoolhouse on such terms and conditions as may be contained in the order, including, if thought fit, a condition requiring extended facilities to be afforded, but if under any special circumstances of the case the Board think it expedient, they may, instead of making such an arrangement, make an order allowing the school to continue as a State-aided school. Provided that—"
  There was little there about the parents, but the main reference was to the local education authority. How were they going to discover the will of the parent under that proposal? No machinery seemed to be contemplated. The provision seemed to have been inserted to meet the unreasoning fear of the Nonconformists that the parson of the parish was a sort of dragon going about seeking whom he might devour.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid he could not distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable parsons. He could only deal with what he found existing. He had had experience of the class of parson— whom he hoped formed the majority of the clergy of the country—who were the noblest of their species; who were loved by everybody in their parishes, and could do almost anything they liked with everybody in them. He had had experience of that class of parson, but there were other members of the clergy with whom it was almost impossible to get on, as he knew very well as a Nonconformist. As to the noble Lord, what was his first point? It went on the supposition that there would not be public school accommodation for one child.
  LORD R. CECILsaid that, as he took it, there must be unanimity where there was no other school accommodation.
  MR. BIRRELLdid not think the noble Lord's fears would be realised having regard to the limits which they had fixed by this clause, namely, that it only applied in urban areas. The argument of the noble Lord as to the injustice was very far fetched. The parents could come in upon the local inquiry, and the conditions of the local inquiry were that at least four-fifths of the parents of the children should desire these facilities. Whether the parents desired them would form part of the inquiry. He had indicated to the noble Lord the other day that he was quite willing to insert words to secure the rights of parents and of the owners of schools to raise the matter when it came to a question of a local inquiry, but the local inquiry necessitated a ballot.
  SIR E. CARSONwished to know how they were to ascertain under sub-section (b) if the parents did not desire it.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid the matter was easy enough. They knew the children in the schools and their parents, and the inquiry would show whether four-fifths of the parents desired the facilities or not.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURdid not think the right hon. Gentleman appreciated his noble friend's point. It might be arguable whether it was fair to destroy the denominational organisation of a school because one child could not find accommodation for religious instruction in the neighbourhood. The ballot would tell them whether four-fifths of the parents desired denominational teaching, but there was nothing to show that those who abstained from the ballot did not also desire denominational teaching. It was essential, if the Government were to carry out their own plan, to discover not only whether the parents desired accommodation, but whether any of the parents desired accommodation elsewhere. Then abstention might and probably would be a matter to be taken into account. As he understood, what his noble friend desired was that mere abstention from the ballot should not be taken as an indication of a preference for another kind of school.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid he did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman in this matter. Let them suppose that in a school of 100 children they took a ballot. The ballot showed that the parents of eighty of the children had' an active desire for denominational facilities and the parents of twenty did not vote. In that case accommodation must be provided for those twenty children in some other school. They did not desire the facilities. It was the active desire indicated by the vote that showed who desired facilities, and if the parents of the twenty did not care to take the trouble to go to the poll he knew of no other way to deal with the point. The Bill said they could get the facilities and advantages if they showed an active desire, by vote, for them. If they did not vote it must be taken that they did not desire them. Then sub-section (b) said that the eighty could not have their four-fifths facilities unless there was another school in the neighbourhood to which the twenty children who did not desire these facilities might go.
  MR. WYNDHAMasked whether it was suggested that a man who was on a bed of sickness and who was in favour of facilities being given was to go and vote, or were they to assume there was unanimity. The fair way to vote would be to put the 'ayes" into one box and the "noes" into another.
  MR. DILLONsaid that the President of the Board had laid down the most astounding doctrine he had ever heard of. The right hon. Gentleman had lately been before a constituency. Supposing the doctrine he had laid down was applied in that constituency would he be willing to count every voter who did not vote as a man who did not want him as a Member? It was precisely the same thing. There were always a certain proportion of men who did not vote in a Parliamentary election, and what the right hon. Gentleman wanted to do in this case was to take all those who did not vote and count them on one side of the issue. A more unfair and astonishing doctrine he had never heard of. Anyone who had had any experience of elections knew perfectly well that a perfect

  977
  vote was never obtained; that for some reason or other people would neglect to vote. To take everybody who for some reason or other could not vote, the sick, the dying, the absent on a journey, sailors, soldiers, commercial travellers and people of all kinds whose business took them away at the time of voting, and say that they were all to be counted as being against the facilities would turn the whole thing into an absolute mockery, and do a double injustice, because not only would they count those who did not vote as being against the facilities, but their children would be counted as children who would not remain in the schools. A great number would not vote because they belonged to a different religion, and although they had no objection to the facilities would rather see the facilities given without their active cooperation. Yet these people were to be counted as being against the facilities.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he thought the hon. Member had entirely misplaced the analogy of the constituency and the election. The issue was not the same. Let them take a school of 100 children. If they had only ten persons going to vote for these facilities, and there were less than two on the other side, that would decide the issue, whereas the clause said "the parents of four-fifths of the children" had expressed a desire for these facilities. It was not a question to be decided by a majority of those who went to the poll, so to speak. That was not the clause. The clause said that they should not have facilities unless the parents of four-fifths of the children desired them. It was a perfectly simple clause. It allowed people with strong views to claim these facilities, and the least those people could do if they desired the facilities was to express their desire by ballot. In a school of 100 children if the parents of eighty of them voted for the facilities they could have them if they showed there was sufficient school accommodation in the district for the twenty children the parents of whom did not desire the facilities. That was as he understood the clause.
  SIR E. CARSONsaid the hon. and learned Member had apparently mis-
  978
  taken the point of his hon. friend. This point was one of real substance. Let the Committee consider the case put by the hon. Gentleman where; they had the votes of four-fifths of the parents of the 100 children in the school, and there remained twenty children who might be the children of four parents. Were they going to deprive the children of that school of special facilities because there was no other school in the neighbourhood to which the twenty children could go? Could anything be more monstrous? Supposing they communicated with those who were sick and could not vote and they were found to be unanimously in favour of the facilities, were they going to say that that was a school that should not have facilities? Supposing they had a unanimous school, of which there were many, the second school would not be availed of. Were they going to leave the whole question of facilities to the mere accident of health or absence? That would be not only a wanton absurdity but a monstrous injustice. The clause did not say the parents who did not vote or who happened to be ill or away, but the parents who did not desire these facilities. What they objected to was the right hon. Gentleman Setting up new machinery specially for ascertaining whether there were any parents who did not desire those facilities. One ballot at all events would not do for ascertaining two absolutely different questions. Personally he considered the whole question of the ballot in this matte absolutely foolish and inapplicable. But if they adhered to the principle of the ballot they had as much right to obtain accurately the views of those who did not desire the facilities as of those who did, and he suggested it would be much better to have the ballot under (b) than (a). It was much more proper to assume that a man did not vote because he was satisfied with existing arrangements than that he wanted something different. No answer had yet been given to this point. If they left the proposal as it was under the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment they would leave it in a state, not only of absolute confusion, but of absolute injustice. The right hon. Gentleman really must tell them how he was going to ascertain the parents of those who did not desire the facilities,

  979
  He could not be satisfied with the assumption that the sick and absent did not desire the facilities. That was not an argument which the right hon. Gentleman would use in any other assembly than the House of Commons. Unless machinery was set up, or the machinery was made applicable only to (b), he hoped his hon. friends on the Opposition side of the House at all events would persist until they got some logical method of determining questions which the right hon. Gentleman had himself raised.
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,)said hon. Gentlemen opposite were making great difficulties about what was inherent in every election. They all knew that persons who did not go to the ballot were ignored in the result of the election; they were not counted either on the one side or on the other. But the Government here had done better than in the case of the ordinary elections. Hon. Gentlemen opposite could have scarcely considered the fact of the public inquiry. The local authority had to settle two problems which he dared say were accompanied in the mode of settlement by some disadvantages. They had first to ascertain whether four-fifths of the parents desired the special facilities. They found that out by means of the ballot. The Government were not making any unreasonable assumption when they said that people who did not take advantage of the opportunity of expressing their desire did not possess that desire. There were no means by which to ascertain the feelings and opinions of people who would not go to vote. The local authority would have fulfilled its duty if it had found out how many persons desired facilities. It had next to consider the case of the persons who had not expressed their desire. For that purpose it had to look round and see whether there was school accommodation for the children of parents who did not desire the facilities. Let them take a case in which eighty parents out of 100 had declared themselves in favour of facilities. The question would then arise whether there was public school accommodation for the children of the twenty non-desiring parents. That was for the local authority to consider. The non-desiring parents
  980
  might appear at the public inquiry and say that the local authoritty need not trouble very much about the public school accommodation for their children. The Government had gone far beyond the ordinary electoral system in attempting to ascertain the wish of every parent— of those who desired facilities, and then of those who did not. To hear hon. Gentlemen speak about absent and sick parents, one would imagine that a general election must be invalid because a large number of persons entitled to vote were not at the polls. It was absolutely impossible to devise better means to ascertain the public will than the electoral machine, but the Bill supplemented those methods by a public inquiry which would ensure that every substantial body of parents in the area had their wishes expressed.
  MR. CAVEsaid he would give a concrete case. Let them take a school three miles or more from any other school, so that it was impossible to find alternate accommodation, and suppose that the parents of ninety-nine children out of 100 voted for Church of England teaching, but the parent of the remaining child, although a member of the Church of England, was absent, or ill, or for some reason would not vote. In such a case the whole thing would fall to the ground, because it was impossible in the instance he had put to fulfil the condition in sub-section (b). The point which the Solicitor-General put did not meet the difficulty at all. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said there would be a public inquiry at which the dissenting parents or any parent who did not vote could state their views. But this was a case of balloting. Nobody knew, and nobody would be entitled to know, who were the parents who had not voted or what were their opinions. Even supposing that a man did come forward and say that he waived condition (b), there was no provision in the Bill for giving effect to that waiver. The whole thing was unreasonable and unworkable. If there was to be a vote it should be held in such a way as to ascertain not only those who desired the facilities, but those who objected to them, and desired to have other forms of religious instruction.

  981
  He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would re-consider the whole matter.
  THE CHAIRMANpointed out that the Committee were getting a little away from the Amendment regarding the ballot on sub-section (a), and drifting into a discussion on questions which could only be met by Amendments to subsection (b).
  MR. STUARTsaid a great deal of what had been said by hon. Gentlemen, was criticism of what did not exist in the clause, although it was intended to be read or introduced into it. As the clause stood the ballot only applied to (a). It had been stated that the position would be ascertained at a public inquiry. If it was intended to be ascertained by ballot it should read "parents who have not expressed their desire to have those facilities."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Member for Sunderland was mistaken as to the position in which the Committee found itself. The position had been illustrated by two speeches which were wholly inconsistent. The principle laid down by the Minister for Education was that every parent who did not vote in favour of facilities was supposed to be hostile. But that was not the version given by the Solicitor-General, who put forward a new theory) viz., that the proper method was the ballot, and in that way they would discover whether 80 per cent, of the parents did or did not require the facilities. The ballot was good enough for them, but there was another method of discovering those who did not want the facilities. Why was the ballot to be used to investigate the number who did want facilities and the public inquiry to find out the number who did not? Was there ever such an absurd scheme put forward?
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid that was not his statement. He referred to subsection (b) which laid upon the local authority the duty of ascertaining whether there was public school accommodation in schools not affected by a permission given under the section for the children attending the school whose parents did not desire the facilities.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he thought that point was not in order. It was the business of the local authority by an investigation to discover the number of parents who really wanted their children to go elsewhere. Two methods were deliberately adopted by the Government. There was the ballot for those who desired denominational education and the public inquiry for those who did not. He thought that was ridiculous. The Government must feel that something would have to be done to meet this case. Were 90 per cent, of the children in a school to be deprived of denominational education because 10 per cent, were indifferent? Was that the policy of the Government? If so, could it stand criticism in any assembly which was net bound by the peculiar difficulties under which the Committee were now labouring? Could the Government hold that position for a moment but for the closure? Would they not be driven from it in hopeless rout? They could not support their case by any argument that would hold water before an impartial assembly. Was it, therefore, not advisable that the Government should devise some Amendment in the next few lines which would meet the justice and the equities of the case?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fife, E.)said he wished to point out what the intention of the Government was in introducing the Bill. Most of the criticism of the Leader of the Opposition had been addressed to the Clause. For what purpose was the parent introduced? Because it was the first condition preceding the granting of these facilities that the parents of at least four-fifths of the children should desire them. The original Bill provided no machinery for this purpose but the local inquiry, and so the Government thought, in the interests of accuracy and to avoid misconceptions, it would be better to determine that question by the machinery now provided. That was the Amendment which was now before the Committee. Then there arose the second of the two conditions on the fulfilment of which the enjoyment of the facilities depended. The right hon. Gentleman had said they were going to ignore

  983
  the ballot or misuse it in determining that question, but he contradicted that. Prima facie persons who had not expressed their desire by voting in the ballot were persons who might be assumed not to desire it. ["No"] That was only common sense. He did not think it would be right to assume from the fact that a man had not voted that that was conclusive on this point. A man might be away or ill, and there might be a number of reasons which would prevent him from exercising his vote, and for that reason it was very desirable that a public inquiry should be held in order that persons of this kind could come forward.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: But the ballot follows the local inquiry.
  MR. ASQUITH: Not at all. But if there was any difficulty in that respect it could be put right. It was the intention of the Government that the ballot should be not conclusive proof that there was a four-fifths majority, but prima facie evidence that persons who did not vote "Aye" were persons who were not desirous of extended facilities. The local inquiry was supplementary, and might very well enable the local authority to determine whether or not in such cases as the right hon. Gentleman had now put extended facilities were wanted and could be given.
  MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)said this was not an ordinary ballot. It was a case in which four-fifths of the whole body of the electors were required to vote in order that the local authority might be induced to take a certain course in regard to the providing of facilities. It was clear, therefore, that the ballot would not represent the whole number of those who desired facilities. By taking a ballot they did not get the opinion of those parents who did not vote on account of sickness, absence on duty, or otherwise, and who always formed a considerable proportion of the whole body of electors. A local inquiry was a more elastic method of ascertaining the views of the parents, because the decision arrived at did not necessarily depend on the presence of every parent who desired to express an
  984
  opinion as in the case of a ballot. As a rule, almost invariably, there would be a larger number really and genuinely desiring facilities than those whose votes were recorded at the polls. The discussion in its present form was due to the statement which the Minister for Education had made as to the construction to be put on the result of the ballot. What had aroused feeling in the Committee Was the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that all the parents who did not, from whatever cause, say "Yes" were to be taken as saying "No." There must be a distinct assurance given that no such view would be taken, otherwise great injustice would be inflicted, and this clause-would become less operative for the purpose for which it was said to be intended than anybody could have expected.
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid he should like to bring before the Committee a concrete case which took place within four miles of where he lived in an urban district. In connection with a school attended by 300 children there was an inquiry to ascertain the desire of the parents with respect to religious instruction. The question put to them was in the very words contained in the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord, namely—
  "Do you wish the religious instruction in the school which your children attend to remain of the same character as it is now."
  The answers were not given under the ballot. All but seven of the parents answered the question in the affirmative, and further inquiry showed that of these seven parents four were Roman Catholics who, though in favour of religious instruction being given in the school, stated that they could not be expected to give their assent to the form of instruction which was given. The other three parents gave no answer, but there was no dissent on their part. This concrete case showed that instances of great difficulty would arise under the ballot. Were they to understand that the accommodation under sub-section (b) which was to be found in schools unconnected with extended facilities would only apply to the children of those who appeared at the public inquiry.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Clearly that question does not arise on this Amendment.
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid the Committee should have a clear statement from the Government as to what was really meant by ballot under the clause. The opinions of parents should not be judged by the fact of their voting or not voting.
  Mr. BIRRELLsaid that the point before him earlier in the afternoon, when he got a little beyond the rules of order, was sub-section (a). He certainly said, and it was a view which was perfectly clear on the reading of the clause itself, that the parents of the children attending the school would have actively to make known their wishes. The fact to be determined under the very wording of the clause was that the parents of at least four-fifths of the children attending the school desired facilities, and if parents did not exercise their vote they could not be said by any possible rule of law, or equity, or common sense, to desire facilities. That was the whole concession of the clause, which was based upon the denominational anxiety of the parents. They were to express actively by vote in the ballot what their wishes were in the matter. Under sub-section (b) a public inquiry was to be held to ascertain whether or not there was sufficient accommodation in the schools for the number of children whose parents did not express a desire for facilities. In that inquiry nothing would be easier than to have evidence afforded that would go to show that parents who had not voted were not desirous of accommodation elsewhere. Parents who had not voted on account of ill-health, or for other reasons, could be represented at the public inquiry held to ascertain whether or not there was public school accommodation for the children who would be excluded by the denominational feelings of their parents from attending the four-fifths schools. A public inquiry would be a very foolish inquiry if it did not deal with the actual facts of the case. So far as sub-section (a) was concerned, he could not withdraw in any way from what he had said—that the only way of indicating
  986
  a desire to obtain the facilities was by recording a vote.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the proposal of the President of the Board of Education was a totally impracticable one. If it were adopted, an inquiry would in every case destroy any advantage supposed to be gained from the ballot. Unless there were as many votes given as there were children attending the school, there was a prima facie assumption, according to the argument of right hon. Gentleman opposite, that the remainder did not actually desire those facilities and the local authority was to consider whether there was the accommodation needed for the children represented by the absent voters; A 100 per cent, poll was unknown, so that in every case there would be this investigation or inquiry, which would embrace the consideration of why certain parents did not put in their votes. But how were they going to discover who did not vote? They could not have a scrutiny of a ballot of this character. At the local inquiry every man must be asked whether he had voted, and whether he had exhausted the whole of his voting power.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.)said he had rarely heard a more extraordinary statement than that to which the Committee had just listened. It was based on a misunderstanding of the whole situation both before and after the ballot. Let him recall to the Committee where they stood, and what promises were made by his right hon. friend at the commencement of the debate. His right hon. friend had distinctly stated that the regulations for the ballot—the whole machinery to be adopted—would be placed on the Table of the House before the Bill left the House of Commons. He had pledged himself to that, and yet a couple of hours had been spent in discussing what the regulations ought to be and in putting into his right hon., friend's mouth remarks which he did not make. This hurried on the guillotine more rapidly, and excluded consideration of other matters.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman wished to charge him

  987
  with having spoken in order to waste time, he was under a complete misapprehension. He had listened carefully to all that had fallen from the Minister for Education, and he did not think that he had misrepresented him by a single word.
  SIR HENRY FOWLERrepudiated having made any charge against the right hon. Gentleman. What he had said was that the effect of this protracted debate on a detail not before the Committee, and which would come up at a subsequent stage, was a waste of time having regard to the serious questions which remained undiscussed. The whole of these proceedings depended upon the proving of a fact. It was that four-fifths of the parents of the children attending the school desired the school to go on as before. That was the fact to be ascertained; there was no contest. Let them take a concrete illustration. Suppose 100 children attended a school, before the owners of that school could claim that denominational education should be continued as before he must prove that the parents of eighty of the children were in favour of that course. If the fact were not proved there was an end of it. The matter was a very simple one. His right hon. friend would tell the Committee the machinery by which the ballot was to be worked. If the initial fact was proved, then the next stage was the submission of this demand by statutory right to the local authority to consider whether the claim should be granted. One of the terms of the inquiry then to be made was whether there was proper accommodation for the children who would not attend a four-fifths school.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the Bill provided that there must be a public inquiry before the ballot took place. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No, no."]
  SIR HENRY FOWLERmaintained that the initial procedure was to ascertain whether there were four-fifths in favour of the denominational education. It was easy to make paradoxical points regarding cases which did not happen in real life. No local authority having the knowledge that there was accommodation for the children remaining would split hairs in a manner totally contrary to common sense
  988
  and common judgment. There would be no occasion to argue whether the non-voters were for or against. As to the machinery of the ballot, the local authorities were quite capable, from long experience, of taking a ballot so as to secure absolute impartiality. If the eighty out of 100 were in favour of these facilities being extended they would have to be granted.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDEsuggested that it would be simpler to add an Amendment which would make it perfectly clear that the question should be decided by the parents who voted.
  MR. HAROLD COXappealed to the Government to ask themselves what their object was in inserting this clause in the Bill. Who was it that they wished to protect? Surely they wished to protect the minority who were not content with the denominational teaching given in the schools. There was no necessity to protect the majority who were content with the existing denominational teaching. They were satisfied with the status quo. The only injustice arose in regard to those who were dissatisfied with the status quo, and therefore they ought to ascertain the feelings of the minority and not of the majority.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERwished to know if he was correct in understanding the right hon. Gentleman to say that his interpretation of the clause was that if four-fifths of the parents of the children attending the school desired them, the facilities would be granted. Hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House had always understood that if accommodation was not found for the other fifth, that was to say, for the twenty out of the 100, the four-fifths could not enjoy the facilities.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)complained that he had not received a sufficient answer to his question whether the word "parents" included the mothers. He would like to have an answer to that question, because it was the most important that could be asked in regard to the Bill. The parents of many of the children

  989
  were working people and the fathers might be obliged to be absent at the time a ballot was taken. What he wanted to know was whether in such cases the mother of the children would be allowed to give the vote in regard to the facilities.
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid that perhaps he might be allowed to answer the question, which he was sure he did not wish to evade. The ballot would be taken in accordance with regulations to be made by the Board, which would prescribe the method. Prima facie, the word "parent" would mean the father, who was, of course, the guardian of the child, but it would be quite open to the Board to prescribe a means by which the wish of the father could be ascertained by the vote of the mother. All these points would be carefully considered.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURrose to a point of order, and to clear up the situation wished to know whether it was possible at this stage to raise an Amendment by which the particular matters which the Opposition cared about could be brought to issue. They could not be brought to issue by merely voting for the actual Amendment before the Committee, and if it was not possible to amend that Amendment so as to make the issue a precise one, he would suggest that they should not rely upon this Amendment, but should wait until they arrived at Sub-section (b) to see whether the matter could not be raised in a precise and specific form.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid it was not possible to reply to a question regarding an Amendment not before him. Until he saw the Amendment he could not possibly decide upon it. He had no Amendment before him, but undoubtedly many of the objections and criticisms which had been raised would be dealt with by Amendments to sub-section (b).
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that that being so, he thought they would do better not to divide at this point, but that they should raise the question on sub-section (b). Then they could take a division in a more decisive form;
  MR. EVELYN CECILmoved to substitute "a reasonable number of parents" for "the parents of at least four-fifths." He said that the discussion which they had had showed that circumstances might arise which would make it undesirable to have a hard and fast line. There was no virtue in the particular fraction of four-fifths, and a more elastic proposal would remove many difficulties. He did not himself understand upon what ground this particular fraction had been fixed upon, I and he thought they were entitled I to ask for some explanation. The other day he suggested some considerations which he thought showed that facilities should be granted to a much smaller number than four-fifths of the parents. In Prussia there was a specific provision to the effect that special religious instruction should be given if it was desired for pupils to the number of twelve, which was usually a far smaller number than four-fifths of the whole school. The effect of that provision was that special religious instruction should be afforded if there was a minority of twelve pupils. In our industrial schools special denominational teaching was given in cases where the proportion was much less. At Osborne Naval College, with 420 cadets, special teaching was allowed for eighteen Roman Catholics among them, and he was assured by the authorities that there would be no difficulty in giving special denominational teaching to any cadets of the Free Churches all together. If the right hon. Gentleman's Regulations under the Act were applied to this college, however, these eighteen cadets would not have the instruction they desired. The authorities at Osborne College had told him that no hitch of any kind had occurred, and that there would be no difficulty or interference with discipline in providing special religious instruction for all the three Churches.
  DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.): Who said that?
  MR. EVELYN CECIL: The authorities
  DR. MACNAMARA: Who are the authorities?
  MR. EVELYN CECIL: The commander and the chaplain.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Oh! The chaplain.
  MR. EVELYN CECILsaid the chaplain and those engaged in the work had actual knowledge, and although it might be easy to jeer at the working of the school, without having any knowledge of the actual facts, he put this case forward, not as a conclusive instance, but as one instance where an infinitely smaller figure than four-fifths obtained. But he should like to appeal to the specific statements made by the President of the Board of Education himself. The right hon. Gentleman had given some study to this question in an article in the Independent Review of October, 1903. Fe there wrote—
  "The parents really must, whether they like it or not, conquer their shyness, and, making their first appearance in this ancient and horrid controversy, tell us, when they send Tom and June to school, whether they wish them to receive any, and, if any, what, religious instruction. There is no elm nee of the multiplication of strange parental religions. We are not an imaginative people. Jews, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Dissenters (in a lump) will usually exhaust the list."
  He knew that he seemed to be always engaged in bringing up the ghosts of the right hon. Gentleman's former utterances when he bad not the honour of sitting in this House or upon the Treasury Bench, and they were the very arguments which were now brought forward by the Opposition. There was no merit in four-fifths, no virtue in it. What if a fluctuating local population made four-fifths possible in one month and not in the next? He ventured to submit to the Committee that it would be much better to accept his Amendment that "a reasonable number" should be substituted for "four-fifths." He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should make the experiment. If it failed, then another method might be adopted. But there was no reason why it should fail. It had been tried in many cases with success, and in his opinion there was no reason why the Government should
  992
  not accept the Amendment he now moved.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 3, line 7, to leave out the words 'the parents of at least four-fifths,' and insert the words 'a reasonable number of parents.'"—(Mr. Evelyn Cecil.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. BIRRELLobserved that the hon. Member had quoted from something he wrote years ago. If the hon. Member would take steps that he should occupy in this country an autocratic position with power of issuing a mandamus every one was bound to obey, then he would undertake to deal with this religious question without any assistance or interference from the hon. Member or anybody else in the House. But the measure he was now supporting was a Government measure in which he had a part, but it was a joint operation, and he was not to be debarred by any individual expressions made some years ago, to the general purport and good sense of which, however, he still adhered. The hon. Member did not like "four-fifths." But would the hon. Member I be good enough to say what was "a reasonable number?"
  MR. EVELYN CECIL: To be ascertained in the locality.
  MR. BIRRELLdid not call that a reasonable suggestion—that what was a reasonable number was to be ascertained by the local authority or by a jury. In his opinion, Parliament must assume some responsibility in this matter. Parliament must determine the conditions under which these facilities were to be granted. The Government, therefore, had chosen a number which would secure that the school, in order to have extended facilities, must be a school of an overwhelmingly denominational character. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, however, thought that wherever there was a child needing denominational instruction, that child ought to be able to get it under a national system of education. That would be a perfectly rational system,

  993
  but it was not the scheme of this Bill, and it was not the scheme for which the great majority of the people of this country had voted. The hon. Member must recognise that the Government could not bring in a Bill of that description. What they had done at great pains and labour—ill-requited pains and unrecognised labour—was to introduce this Clause 4. That it was not a perfect denominational clause, he quite agreed. But still, as Dr. Johnson said about the dancing dogs—"It is not a wonder that the dog dances well—the wonder is that it dances at all!" And so with regard to this clause—the wonder was that it should be where it was at all. It was a highly exceptional clause dealing with a highly exceptional circumstance. The main circumstance was that the school to have these exceptional facilities must be beyond all question a clear denominational school. They could not have nice inquiries or fine discriminations; they had to deal coarsely by putting a large number which should prove beyond any doubt that the school was a denominational one. He was there to defend "four-fifths" simply on those grounds. There must be an overwhelming majority if the school was to continue on its way as a denominational school. The Government had constructed the clause for the benefit of schools whose character was overwhelming and not likely to change; and they must adhere to it.
  MR. BUTCHERsaid whatever might be said of this fraction, one thing was clear, and that was that the privileges acquired under it were of a most precarious character. The migration of a few families to another quarter of the town would destroy the proportion, all the more because four-fifths of the children were a more unstable quantity than four-fifths of the parents. Again, an influx of undenominational children into a denominational school would have a similar effect. Even a single hostile individual who desired to upset the arrangement could easily disturb the balance by bringing in a batch of children from outside. Then there was the fact that under the Bill the permission could be withdrawn at six months' notice. So that the system was set up upon the shifting basis of a
  994
  constantly varying fraction, which might be four-fifths to-day and two-thirds tomorrow. He did not believe that the desired end could be attained by any rigid fraction. This four-fifths fraction opened up a new chapter in the history of religious toleration and liberty. It marked the arithmetical point at which parental wishes might assert themselves, and rights of conscience might have a voice. Why should the Government express the principle of toleration in the form of this unheard of fraction? The reason was only too apparent. The arithmetical expression was an evasive expression; it put in the language of arithmetic with seeming mathematical coldness and impartiality what the Government dared not say in plain English. What they meant was that the Church of England was not to participate in the religious liberty that was extended to other denominations; that whereas 75 per cent, of the Church of England schools were to be excluded, the Roman Catholic schools, to the extent of 75 per cent. and more, were to be included. He did not wish to rob the Roman Catholics of a single school which was now in their possession. Those schools had been built by them out of hard-won earnings and from a devoted piety, and they ought every one of them to remain without question. All he said was, let the Church of England have the equality and similar privilege to that which was given to other denominations. He did not think that Irish Members asked for exclusive privileges. He heard the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool recently insist on the claim of all creeds for religious equality. The quarrel of English Churchmen was not with the Members on the Irish Benches, with whom they were in hearty sympathy; their quarrel was with the Government, who resorted to a fraction which was not only evasive, but cowardly, and designed to strike a blow at the Church of England. From another point of view, this fraction inflicted peculiar hardship on the Established Church. The Church had set herself a great national task, before any other denomination had taken up the work of education. She had sought to educate not only her own children, but all others who wished to

  995
  receive her instruction. If she had not attempted to discharge this national duty, and had not thrown wide her doors to thousands of children of other denominations who wished to partake of that education; if, on the contrary, she had taken a sectarian view of her position, and given an instruction rigidly and exclusively denominational, then she would have come within the privileges of the four-fifths clause. The fact that the Church required a smaller fraction was proof that she had been ministering to the needs of different denominations. The magnitude of her work was the measure of her offence. She was penalised for her comprehensiveness, and put under disabilities because, being the Church of the nation, she had attempted to do a national work.
  One more point. The limit of "four-fifths" in this clause taken in connection with the limit of the "urban area" meant the break up of one great portion of the organised religious life of England. He knew that hon. Gentleman opposite were not inclined to look upon the voluntary schools in this light. They thought of them, absurd as was the idea, as turning out little seminaries for expert theologians. But there was another side of these voluntary schools which ought not to be ignored. The children there learnt that they belonged to a religious community, that they were members of a body; and in later years surely it was no small thing when one thought of their lonely and unsheltered lives in the great industrial centres, of their isolation and temptations, that they should be able to feel that they were members of a spiritual family, and that they had behind them a great background of fellowship and organic life, and all those mutual aids which to young people were the greatest possible help towards right living. Hon. Gentlemen opposite said, "Children cooped up in denominational pens—how can they become good citizens"? To him the argument was quite the opposite To train the sense of corporate life was in itself a great education in citizenship, and on the whole those who were most loyal to their own denomination proved also most true in their allegiance to the community. From the point of view of the State and of its moral welfare, he maintained that they could not afford to loosen the ties that
  996
  bound people to the religious organisations to which they belonged, and the words now under discussion did tend to loosen and to dissolve that vital bond.
  MR. LANE-FOXsaid he could tell the Minister for Education what a reasonable number was. It seemed to him that one-half was distinctly a reasonable number. The limit in the Bill allowed considerable advantages to Roman Catholics, but it also inflicted considerable disadvantages on the Church of England. Grievances which were peculiar to the Church of England were not receiving the same attention from the Government that other grievances were, and he asserted that their grievances would not be attended to unless they pointed out that Roman Catholics had serious grievances in this matter too. He thought the limitation distinctly excluded from the operation of the clause a great majority of the schools of the Church of England. Many Members had hoped that under this clause they would see the redemption of the pledges made by Ministers up and down the country, but every Amendment was being rejected and every shred of hope taken from them. They were left in the position, if this limitation were passed, that a large number of their schools had only obtained the so-called miserable advantages under Clause 3. They were placed under a serious disadvantage. They could not in view of the great majority against them protest effectively in this House. They must leave it to another place, if they thought fit, to remodel this clause until the elements of justice appeared in it. The arbitrary limitation was absolutely unjustified, and he hoped it would suffer the fate it deserved, at the hands either of this or of some other Parliament.
  MR. POWER (Waterford, E.)could not under stand why the Government was so wedded to this clause. According to the hon. and learned Member for South Longford, it would ruin no less than 235 of the Catholic schools as they at present existed. He at first thought that that was rather an exaggeration, and he had taken the trouble to visit three schools in the neighbourhood in which he lodged.

  997
  Those three visits more than confirmed the accuracy of his hon. and learned friend's statement. The first school was in Kensington Square, kept by Catholic nuns. It was a small school with only 114 children on the roll, and out of that number there were twenty - eight Protestants. Therefore, although the school had been built with Catholic money for the education of Catholic children, it would cease to be a Catholic school, because if it came to a question of voting, a number of the parents of the children would decline to vote. Consequently there would not be the majority necessary to enable the school to be continued as at present. The second case he inquired into was at Fulham. He had also visited the schools connected with the Oratory Church. He took those schools because they were the nearest to him. They were very large schools built at a cost of £20,000. In the girls' school there were 165 girls, and twenty-two of them were not Catholics; whilst there were 180 in the infants' school, forty-five of them not being Catholics. That gave sixty-seven of these children as non-Catholic, and applying the four-fifths rule these big schools, built largely by the pence of the poor, would cease to be Catholic schools, and they would be giving a kind of education there which was never intended by the founders. The first duty of the State was to see that a proper education was given to all classes of the community, and if the State failed in that respect it failed in regard to one of its most important functions. They believed in a Catholic atmosphere in the schools because they believed that it had a good influence on the minds of the young. He maintained that unless the proposed fraction was altered, they would be doing a great injury to the poorest of the poor. The people of this country never did understand Catholic tenets and principles, but Catholics were proud of the sacrifices made in the past by the poor people who had gone before them. They hoped to be able to keep the schools created by those who had been expelled from their own country, and every effort would be used to secure the perpetuation of schools founded by the self-sacrifice of
  998
  their own countrymen. Hence they would oppose this four-fifths clause.
  LORD MORPETHsaid they had been told that this was an honest Bill. Although many hon. Members on the Ministerial side had declared that they were anxious to give genuine facilities to those who desired definite religious teaching, nevertheless many barriers were interposed between that promise and its realisation. So many difficulties had been placed in the way that in many cases it would be impossible to obtain such teaching. Four-fifths was an exceedingly high proportion. The Minister for Education had asked what was a reasonable proportion. At any rate he should say that it ought to be less than four-fifths, but he was in favour of leaving the matter to the local authority to determine. He was aware that some hon. Members regarded local authorities with a certain amount of suspicion, but his experience of them was that they were tar more tolerant than the majority on the Ministerial side of the House. There was hardly a local authority in the country that would refuse to give the facilities permitted by this Bill, and even more than was proposed by the Government. The local authority upon which he had the honour of serving had through the County Council Committee asked that the limitations in Clause 4 should be struck out. He felt sure that if the question was left to the local authorities they would give a far more liberal-minded interpretation than the Government had done. Why not leave it to the local authority to determine whether there was a genuine demand to continue the denominational nature of the school? According to the law as it stood it had not in the past been in the power of denominational schools to refuse to admit the children of other denominations, and for that reason there were in the Catholic and Anglican schools of Great Britain a good many children who did not belong to those particular churches. Would it not be a great hardship upon those churches, which had been doing the work of the State and educating the children of all classes who were sent to them, if they were penalised and told under

  999
  this Bill that they were not to give definite religious teaching in these schools? All those who had had any experience of administering education before the year 1902 knew that although the children might be sent to any school in which places were vacant, yet in Roman Catholic schools those places were not always considered available, and school boards were allowed to build extra schools, although at the time there were places available in the Catholic schools. With regard to the Church of England schools no such considerations held good, and they had a large number of children who did not belong to that church at all. He thought that fact alone ought to induce the Government to give a generous recognition of these services, and not to insist upon placing the proportion so high as four-fifths. Accordingly, he was in favour of leaving to the local authorities the definition of "a reasonable number," feeling assured that it would be fixed by them at less than four-fifths.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDhoped the Government would yield so far at least as to substitute "three-fourths" for "four-fifths." He had the fullest confidence in the desire of the Minister for Education to do what was reasonable and fair, but surely it was not fair or reasonable to say that unless four-fifths of the children attending a denominational school were of its particular denomination the religious character of the school should be entirely changed? He thought the President of the Board of Education ought to make some Amendment which would safeguard these schools against an undoubted injustice. He did not see anything particularly magical in the fraction four-fifths. If the vote did not show four-fifths, would the Solicitor-General say that it was a fair and reasonable thing that the whole character of the school should be altered, end that the opinion of the great majority of parents should be ignored? He firmly believed that it was the intention of the President of the Board of Education to deal perfectly frankly and fairly by the denominational schools in this matter, and to keep them denominational if the great majority of the parents wished it. His point was that it
  1000
  would be a monstrous thing in regard to a Catholic school, where there were nearly four-fifths who desired that extended facilities should be given, that the facilities should be refused simply because there were five or six votes less than the required number. The words "a reasonable number of parents" in the Amendment might not be the proper words to use. They were very vague, and might give rise to a great deal of trouble, but he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to take some step in order that Catholic schools which were very nearly up to the four-fifths should not be penalised because of the absence of a voter here and there, and because the schools had so recommended themselves that the children of parents belonging to other denominations were sent to them. There were many such schools, conducted by nuns and under the supervision of priests, where there were numbers of Protestant children, on the clear and honourable understanding that nothing should be done to change their religion—an understanding always most scrupulously carried out. He asked the Minister for Education to see whether it was not possible to insert some Amendment which would prevent this hard-and fast provision from excluding from extended facilities schools which were serving their purpose properly, not only in the eyes of Catholics, but in the eyes of a considerable number of Protestants as well. Reference had been made to what mysterious people in "another place" were going to do to this Bill. He dissociated himself entirely from hon. Gentlemen above the gangway on the Opposition side who were always threatening the Government in that way. It was an intolerable thing that the representatives of the people should be threatened and badgered as to what was going to be done in another place. He did not like it at all, but if a reasonable thing was not done here, undoubtedly it would be done in another place. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to safeguard these schools against an undoubted injustice, and do nothing to bolster up another place.
  MR. BIRRELLassured the hon. Gentleman that he most firmly believed that the Protestant parents who sent their children for well-defined comprehensible

  1001
  reasons to Roman Catholic schools because of their praiseworthy excellence would be found among those who would vote for those schools continuing to be conducted as before. A child of his own attended for many years a Roman Catholic school; he received the utmost kindness there; and he looked back upon the time he spent there, and always would do, as among the happiest periods of his life. He was now in New Zealand, and, as far as he could discover, he was to-day the strongest of Protestants. If while his child was there he himself could have been called upon to exercise the referendum, he should certainly have expressed his opinion at the ballot box that the school should continue as it was, unaltered in any respect. Therefore, he could not agree that Protestant parents would abstain from expressing their opinion in the like sense as opportunity should arise. He agreed that it would be a great miscarriage of justice if a school was deprived of facilities under this clause by reason of the fact that a number of children who belonged to another denomination went to it. As to the four-fifths, he could not in any way go back upon what he had said. The greatest possible pressure had been put upon him by persons whose views he did not share, who had pointed out that the number of Anglican schools that would be benefited under this provision was very large. He did not mind how large it was. The number of actual schools that would fall within the purview of this clause was much more numerous in the case of the Church of England than in that of the Church of Rome. It was with that object they wanted Clause 4 to operate as widely as possible within the limits which appeared on the Bill as drafted. He could not hold out any hope that the proportion would be reduced.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN (Birmingham, W.)said he doubted very much whether the hon. Gentleman the Member for Waterford would derive much comfort from the interesting personal experience which had just been related by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education, and which led him to believe that Protestants attending Catholic schools would after this Act was passed go out of their
  1002
  way to ask that exceptional treatment should be given to those schools. All he could say was that that seemed to indicate to him a great amount of religious liberality and toleration, but not any very strenuous Protestantism.
  MR. BIRRELL: Why not? If any person for whom I am responsible is sent to a Catholic school, I do not know that that interferes with my position.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he dared say not. He always understood that the object of establishing a denominational and especially a Church school was to promote in the minds of the children an attachment to the denominational religion for which the school had been created. When the right hon. Gentleman spoke as to his readiness to accept for his own children Roman Catholic teaching, would he in the event of this Bill being passed petition that the Roman Catholic teaching should be continued in the school? He confessed he did not know on what authority the right hon. Gentleman could imagine that there would be no tampering with the Protestant faith of his son in a Catholic school. On the contrary he should have thought that the mere atmosphere of the school would have tended to sap the Protestant faith of his son.
  MR. BIRRELL: It did not have that result on my son.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he should doubt whether that son was, as they were told, a very strong Protestant.
  MR. BIRRELL: A good Protestant.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he doubted very much whether the son would support the policy which was now supported by his father. But this seemed to him to be rather humorous than serious.
  MR. BIRRELL: There is nothing humorous about it.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid it did not afford to his mind an assurance that the people who attended these denominational schools and did not agree with the denominational teaching in them would

  1003
  go out of their way to ask that the denominational teaching should be continued. He did not think that any such argument as that could be sustained even if supported by the personal experience of the right hon. Gentleman. At the same time let him say to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Waterford that they on the Opposition benches entirely understood his position. He had made it perfectly clear that the Irish Party did not care for the Anglican case, but for their own case, which they were specially called upon to defend.
  MR. BYLES: Are you an Anglican?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINasked what had that got to do with it? He was puzzled to know in what possible way the hon. Gentleman made that observation relevant to the argument.
  MR. BYLES: I asked for information as to in what way you differentiate what you call "our case" from the case of the Roman Catholics.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he perfectly understood that the hon. Gentleman and the Irish Nationalist Party differentiated the cases, and that while they argued for their own position they did not carry the argument so far as to include the case of those who desired Protestant denominational teaching. They on that side of the House were more liberal, because all they asked for themselves they were ready to concede to Roman Catholics and other denominations.
  MR. DILLON: Clause 3 is of no use to us. [Cries of "Oh."]
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid that what he was arguing for now was the inclusion in Clause 4 of all schools which were proved to be denominational, whether Catholic or Anglican. What the Opposition asked for was justice and full reciprocity on the part of the Irish Members. The great importance of this discussion was the light it showed on the genesis of the Bill. For himself, speaking as a Unitarian, he said that he was not one of those who had ever attached the great importance so many of his
  1004
  friends did to denominational teaching. He had said in public and in this House that he had never taken exception to the ordinary teaching given under the Cowper-Temple clause. He must say that with such experience as he had had of the working classes of the country he thought the great bulk of them were not so greatly interested as many people imagined in what was called sectarian teaching. That was not a new statement on his part. But if that experience of his was accepted to that extent perhaps his experience would be accepted a little further. There was one thing on which they might always appeal to the democracy of this country, and that was the eternal principles of common justice. He opposed this Bill because he thought that it was unjust, and there was no clause of it which was more distinctively unjust than Clause 4; and no part of the clause was more unjust than the particular limitation of the four-fifths provision which had been ingeniously introduced in order to include the Catholic and exclude the Anglican schools. Did hon. Members think that when, sooner or later, this matter was again carried to the country—as it would be—they could persuade those who cared nothing whatever about denominations that it was a just arrangement which allowed to Catholic schools in the proportion of three-fourths certain privileges which were withheld from Anglican Protestant schools? If they did, they would find themselves very much mistaken. But there was another injustice. The reason the Government were making for the exceptions to Clause 4 was that there were a number of parents who desired denominational teaching—Catholic or Anglican. How could they justly say that because a man sent his children to a school where 80 per cent, were of one denomination the children should have the religious instruction the parents desired, but that it should be denied if only 79 per cent, were of that one denomination? He was sure that the men in the street, who, after all, dictated the policy of the country, would not support such an injustice. They would say that there must be some intention quite different from that which was

  1005
  avowedly on the face of those proceedings. The hon. Member for Cambridge University had put with great force the peculiar hardship of some denominational schools that were to be punished because of their liberalism and generosity to others outside those for whose special benefit the schools had been built. He would give an illustration of which he personally knew the facts. A large denominational school had recently been built at great expense entirely for denominational purposes— Church of England—and in that school one-third of the pupils were Nonconformists. Therefore that school would not come within the four-fifths provision, although there were board schools, Wesleyan schools, and Roman Catholic schools all round. The Nonconformist pupils only went to the Church of England school because the secular education was better there than in the others. He was not blaming them in the least, but under this clause the fact that those pupils chose to go to this denominational school would deprive it of the benefits of Clause 4. That was unjust. Supposing the managers of the school, knowing what would happen, were to say before the Bill passed that they would no longer accept the Nonconformist children in the Church school? What would be the result? Some of the parents would recognise the justice of that decision and would send their children to the public elementary or the Nonconformist school. Others might appeal to the Board of Education and claim that their children should be received in schools in which religious instruction was given of which they disapproved. Could the Board of Education in justice force these children back into the Church schools, and six months afterwards allow the parents of these children to vote against the continuance of the instruction for which the school was established? The proposition in the Bill was absolutely indefensible. No such policy could possibly afford a permanent settlement. He did not threaten hon. Members with what might happen elsewhere, but sooner or later the Government would have to go to the people who, they said, had given them their mandate. He should like very much to have that
  1006
  opportunity. Dr. Clifford, whose personal acquaintance he did not enjoy, but who appeared to speak of him generally by his Christian name, said at a public meeting the other day, "They all knew what Joey wanted." He was not certain that Dr. Clifford knew all that he wanted, but he was quite right if he thought he wanted a general election on this point as soon as possible. He almost challenged hon. Members to agree with him that the result of such an election would not constitute anything like unanimous approval of a policy which on the face of it was unjust, unreasonable, unfair, and could not be defended.
  MR. GIBBS (Bristol, W.)said the provisions of the Bill were very drastic, and it seemed to him that under them these schools would be diverted from the main object for which they were built. Those who were responsible for them would be denied the just right to give that religious teaching to which those attending the schools had always been accustomed. A great deal had been said about the safeguards which were going to be given to the voluntary schools under this clause, but when they came to be considered they appeared to him to be absolutely illusory. It seemed to him that the proportion of four-fifths could apply only to schools where the children in attendance were all of one denomination. In other cases the minority would be able to prevent any denominational teaching at all being given. He could very well imagine how, if this Bill became law, there would be no more denominational teaching. The right hon. Gentleman and his supporters denied that the Bill was an attack upon the Church of England. He could only say that he wished that they on the Opposition side of the House could avoid believing that it was such an attack. But what other conclusion could they come to if this proportion of four-fifths was persisted in? The Church of England had many schools, and in numbers of them there were children of all denominations, but unless four-fifths of the parents of the children desired it denominational teaching could not be given. He felt sure that this provision would exclude denominational teaching from hundreds if not thousands of Church

  1007
  schools. Surely where the parents of half the scholars desired to have denominational religious instruction it should be given as before. Eighty per cent, was too large a percentage, and if it was persisted in in one school the children there would get denominational teaching, while in another of a precisely similar character they would not obtain it, although the children of the Anglican denomination constituted the great majority of the children attending it. He thought the clause was built upon a very shifting foundation. There were cases, moreover, in which, although the schools might obtain the privilege
  at first, shortly afterwards the four-fifths might be reduced to three-fourths, and they would lose the right of giving denominational religious teaching. The percentage was so great that it appeared to him to be altogether unreasonable, and he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to insert the fraction of one-half, or if he could not do that, something more reasonable than four-fifths.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 312; Noes, 142. (Division List No. 158.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Cameron, Robert

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Agnew, George William

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cawley Frederick

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Alden, Percy

  Chance, Frederick William

  Gill, A. H.

  Allen, A.Acland(Christchurch)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. HerbertJohn

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Glover, Thomas

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Grant, Corrie

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cleland, J. W.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Clough, W.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Coats, SirT.Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Gulland, John W.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset

  Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Corbett, CH. (Sussex,E. Grinst'd

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Beale, W. P.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Harwood, George

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cremer, William Randal

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

  Crombie, John William

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Crossley, William J.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Bertram, Julius

  Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Billson, Alfred

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon Augustine

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Bolton, T. D. (Derbysbire,N. E.

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N

  Higham, John Sharp

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Brace, William

  Dodd, W. H.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Duckworth, James

  Hodge, John

  Branch, James

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Brigg, John

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Dunne, Major E.Martin(Walsall

  Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N.

  Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Bryce, Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Bryce, J.A.(Inverness Burghs)

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Hudson, Walter

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ferens, T. R.

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Napier, T. B.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  Nicholls, George

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Nuttall, Harry

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Summerbell, T.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Paul, Herbert

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Lambert, George

  Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk,Eye)

  Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.)

  Lamont, Norman

  Perks, Robert William

  Thomas, SirA.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton)

  Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset E

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Philipps, J. Wynford(Permbroke

  Tomkinson, James

  Lea, HughCecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Torrance, A. M.

  Leese, SirJosephF(Accrington)

  Price, C.E.(Edinb'gh,Central)

  Toulmin, George

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.)

  Verney, F. W.

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Vivian, Henry

  Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Levy, Maurice

  Radford, G. H.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Walton, SirJohnL.(Leeds,S.)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Ward, John(Stokeupon Trent)

  Lough, Thomas

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Ward, W.Dudley(Southampton

  Lupton, Arnold

  Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

  Wardle, George J.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Richardson, A.

  Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Mackarness, Frederic G

  Robertson, Rt.Hn.E.(Dundee)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Robertson, Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

  White, George (Norfolk)

  M'Arthur, William

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  M'Crae, George

  Rose, Charles Day

  Whitehead, Rowland

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Rowlands, J.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Mansfield, H.Rendall(Lincoln)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)

  Schwann, Chas.E.(Manchester)

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

  Marnham, F. J.

  Sears, J. E.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Williamson, A.

  Massie, J.

  Seddon, J.

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Menzies, Walter

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wilson, HenryJ.(York, W.R.)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras,S.)

  Mond, A.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Winfrey, R.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Woodhouse, SirJT(Huddersf'd

  Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Snowden, P.

  Morrell, Philip

  Soares, Ernest J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Morse, L. L.

  Spicer, Albert

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Pease.

  Murray, James

  Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Myer, Horatio

  Steadman, W. C.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Ambrose, Robert

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Cecil, Evelyn (Ashton Manor)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Blake, Edward

  Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Boland, John

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J.(Birm.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn. Sir H.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Coates, E.Feetham(Lewisham)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Balfour, RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Cox, Harold

  1010

  1011

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

  Crean, Eugene

  Keswick, William

  O'Malley, William

  Cross, Alexander

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Mara, James

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Delany, William

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  O'Shee, James John

  Devlin Charles Ramsay(Galway

  Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

  Dillon, John

  Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Lundon, W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Reddy, M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Du Cros, Harvey

  MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Duffy, William J.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  M'Kean, John

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  M'Killop, W.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Fell, Arthur

  Meagher, Michael

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Starkey, John R.

  Forster, Henry William

  Mooney, J. J.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Murnaghan, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Ginnell, L.

  Murphy, John

  Talbot, Rt. Hn.J G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Haddock, George R.

  Nicholson, Wm.G.(Petersfield)

  Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Halpin, J.

  Nield, Herbert

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hammond, John

  Nolan, Joseph

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Young, Samuel

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Helmsley, Viscount

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Hogan, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Viscount Valentia.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn.Sir JohnH.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE (Wexford, N.)in moving to insert after the word "schools," in line 8, the words "whose parents voted in the ballot." said that his object was to remove the difficulty which arose previously when the right hon. Gentleman explained the principle of the ballot and the method by which the decision should be arrived at. The right hon. Gentleman's suggestion was that they should reverse the usual practice in all matters of election and allow the question to be decided by those who did not vote. When a question was to be decided by ballot it seemed to him a contradiction in terms to say that the decision should be arrived at by those who took no part in it. The proposals of the clause meant that the status of the schools would be altered. That being so, he thought that those who desired to alter their status should have the courage of their convictions and vote for the change. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 3, line 8, after the word 'schools,' to insert the words 'whose parents voted in the ballot'."—(Sir Thomas Esmonde.)
  Question proposed "That those words be inserted."
  MR. DILLONsaid the Solicitor-General had just now stated that if a voter did not go to an election he was ignored. That was just the point. If a man did not vote he should not be regarded, and that was the exact purport of the Amendment. When an election took place for this purpose those who did not vote ought to be treated as non-existent, and the only parents they had a right to consider when they adopted the method of the ballot were those who voted. The Amendment was the logical consequence of the ballot. As the clause originally stood there was provided a perfectly elastic method of inquiry which might be presumed to be an exhaustive inquiry as to the views of the parents. There was nothing in the clause to prevent the local authority taking a week or a fortnight to discover the views of the parents or to give time to those who were absent or sick to have their views ascertained. But when they introduced a ballot which must take place between certain specified hours and in a

  1013
  certain specified place they altered the whole condition of the problem and increased against those who demanded facilities the necessary proportion, because in order to produce at the ballot a proportion of four-fifths it would be necessary to have five-sixths or seven-eighths of the voters to secure the four-fifths if the whole of the parents were to be taken into account. He gathered from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that it was the intention of the Government to count as against the granting of facilities everybody who did not vote. He himself thought the proportion of those who would be unable to vote at a given time would be exceedingly large. Workmen were not masters of their own time. A man engaged in the building trade might be at the other end of the country on a job. He could not see that the right hon. Gentleman had advanced a single argument in favour of his project of counting all those who did not vote as against these facilities. Would it not be more just and more generous to count them as in favour of the facilities. That would, he thought, be far more reasonable, because those who objected to them would be sure to come up and record their objection. Therefore, if those who did not vote were to be counted at all, they should be counted as being in favour of the clause. That, however, was not the Amendment before the Committee. The Amendment of his hon. friend imported common sense into this question and only said that if resort was made to the ballot the question should be governed by the ordinary laws of the ballot.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid that the effect of this Amendment had been discussed some time ago, and another Amendment was to be moved on sub-section (b). He was sorry that there was this difference of opinion. He had never assumed that it would arise, because he thought that the point was perfectly plain. The Committee was not dealing with an ordinary election, but with a clause which imposed on certain persons, if they were anxious to obtain special facilities, the duty of accurately expressing their desire that these special facilities should be granted. He now saw that hon.
  1014
  Members opposite took another view. The essence of the matter was that these additional facilities should be obtained by an active expression of a desire on the part of the parents, and, therefore, it was not possible for the Government to accede to the Amendment. He agreed that every precaution must be taken to see that the wishes of the parents were expressed and that it would be a monstrous thing that, because a man was absent from home, the mother, who was looking after the children, should not have the right of representing him in the ballot. It was intended that the mother should have this right, and he hoped that there would be no difficulty about that point. The only other point of hardship was that a certain number of parents might have been prevented from expressing their opinions, and that it would be wrong to assume that such parents insisted upon having accommodation for their children elsewhere. Until he saw the Amendment that was to be moved he would content himself by saying that words could be inserted to make it plain that at the public inquiry any parent who did not vote in the ballot would have an opportunity to be represented and to indicate that he had no desire for accommodation for his child. The authority in charge of the public inquiry would be able to deal with the actual facts of the case, and would be able to ascertain what public accommodation was needed. But he adhered to the view he had always expressed, that there was an obligation imposed on the parents to make known their desires, and they could not assume in that respect that silence gave consent.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid the President of the Board of Education expected from human nature what had never occurred in the whole history of mankind. Where-ever voting took place and under whatever circumstances it took place there would always be a large percentage of voters who would not trouble to record their opinions. He took the case of the electoral contests in the north of Ireland. He doubted whether there was any place in the world where there was such a fanatical desire on the part of men to record their votes Let them take West Belfast, for instance, which was

  1015
  one of the great electoral battle grounds on the north of Ireland. Had 100 per cent, of the electors ever recorded their votes there? He believed the record on one occasion was 96 per cent, and everybody thought that a perfect marvel. Now the right hon. Gentleman proposed that not 90 or 95 per cent, but 100 per cent, of the people must record their votes on this question on one side. The minority was more likely to be indifferent than active. The Minister for Education was aware that the number of Protestant children in the Catholic schools was large. When in Wales the other day, in the very heart of the Nonconformist country, he was told there was a Catholic school which had many Protestant children attending it. Therefore they were face to face with this extraordinary situation, that because a Catholic school rightly or wrongly attracted a large number of Protestant children the Catholic parents must vote 100 per cent, while the Protestant parents were not called upon to vote. He thought the proposition had only to be stated in order to show its absurdity. It was perfectly reasonable that the desire for additional facilities should be genuine and active, but between that and the statement that every single one in favour of these additional facilities must vote and would vote was the gap between human nature according to the dreams of the romancer and human nature in reality. A French statesman once said that the majority of men were either sluggards, cowards, or rogues. He would not accept the proposition, but he thought inactivity and apathy were very strong attributes of human nature. The Protestant parents were more likely not to vote than to vote. The Minister for Education seemed rather to admire the Protestant parent who sent his child to a Roman Catholic school, but there were two points of view in regard to that. He should certainly not advise the Catholic parent who had the opportunity of sending his child to a Catholic school to send it to a Protestant school. That would show an ignoble view of the highest considerations of religion. Therefore, so far as this Protestant minority was concerned, they began with a number of people who were indifferent
  1016
  in the matter of religious feeling, and that being so, the probability was in favour of their not voting and the more difficult it would make the case for the Catholics. No man felt more strongly than he did the extraordinary spirit of sacrifice Catholics in this country had made for the erection of their schools, and they would make every effort to retain them. But to say that 100 per cent. would vote was too much. The proposal of his hon. friend was a fair compromise. Let the test be the number of parents who actually voted.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid the Opposition were ready to support the Amendment which had just been placed before the Committee. He really thought that the position taken up by the President of the Board of Education was quite untenable. They were not dealing with an ordinary election. In this case if any person failed to vote, for whatever reason, whether apathy, illness, or absence, that fact would militate against facilities being granted. They could not but remember that in the old days of the School Board elections the average poll was 25 per cent. In 1902, when it was proposed to substitute another authority for the school boards, it was said that the reason why the large balance of the electors did not record their votes was that they were satisfied, and that they did not think it necessary to record their votes. He did not think the parents of other denominations who sent their children to Catholic or Church of England schools would care to state in writing whether they approved of the Roman Catholic or the Church of England creeds or vice versa. He felt sure that those parents would not desire to state on paper whether they approved of those doctrines or not.
  MR. BIRRELL: There is no question of dogma in it at all. The questions put to the parents will not involve in any form religious beliefs.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid he was glad to have that assurance. This provision required not merely an 80 per cent. majority of those actually voting, but

  1017
  substantially a unanimous vote of everybody concerned before the facilities could be obtained, and that was really a very great hardship on those who wished to maintain denominational teaching. The President of the Board of Education had stated, "We all desire that these facilities, if they are facilities at all, shall be real and not a sham." He felt that the limitations were so serious and onerous that the facilities offered under such conditions really would be of very small avail, if not entirely useless.
  MR. PERKSsaid he did not think that the Catholic Church need feel any grave anxiety on account of this particular provision in rural districts. The district which he represented had in it five Catholic schools and four of them were small village schools which would not be affected. The only urban district which would be affected had a Catholic school with only thirty - four children. The singular thing was that the four Catholic schools in the four villages which would be affected by Clause 3 had each a larger number of Catholic children than the school in the urban district which would come under the purview of this clause. So that in regard to this clause which was intended to benefit the Catholic Church the practical effect would be that four of the schools would get no benefit at all, and the urban district school with thirty-four children in attendance would alone benefit. He did not, however, think it would be any use giving the protection of the ballot, and then encouraging a lot of people to make an inquiry to discover how they had voted, or even to discover whether they had voted or not. It would not be in accordance with the principle of the ballot if they allowed a canvass to discover whether they had voted or not in order that their views might be submitted to some local inquiry. The clause was extremely unpopular and would cause no end of trouble.
  MR. SHACKLETONsaid his only fear was that they were going to have far too much for and against upon this question. It would be a very dangerous thing to have a state of things under which the
  1018
  electors would have to decide for or against a Church or a Catholic school. All this appeared to him to be absolutely unnecessary. The groundwork of the Bill, as he understood it, was to have ordinary schools under the Cowper-Temple principle. Clause 4 granted an exception, in regard to schools which could prove that they had four-fifths of the parents in favour of facilities. If such a question was put in his district he should not vote at all, because he did not want the exception, and that appeared to him to be a reasonable position to take up. If only those voted under this clause who were required to express an opinion then a majority of 80 per cent, would settle the question. That to him was a common-sense reading of the proposal. The Minister for Education had never said that the other 20 per cent. should be deducted, although he did say that the number who did not vote would be an indication that they did not want those facilities. At the public inquiry, if any parent could show that he was absent for any just reason which prevented him voting, and that he was in favour of this clause being made operative, no public authority would refuse to take his vote. The position would be that he would have to prove that he was unable to register his vote on the occasion when the ballot was taken. Certainly a register should be kept of those who had voted.
  MR. BURDETT-COUTTSsaid this was really the right place for an Amendment of this kind to come in. The Minister for Education had suggested postponing it to another part of the clause; but it was necessary to define what was meant by the words "the parents of four-fifths of the children," and the Amendment did that. The hon. Member for the Clitheroe Division seemed to think that it was a very simple matter, but he would put this question to him: Supposing there was a law or regulation which said that a grant of money by a local authority for certain purposes must be sanctioned by a two-thirds majority, would that mean two-thirds of those voting or two-thirds of the whole body?
  MR. SHACKLETON: That is for and against—a different thing altogether.
  MR. BURDETT-COUTTS: Not at all. The question is: Does it mean two-thirds of the whole local authority, or two-thirds of the members who vote?
  MR. SHACKLETON: Two-thirds of the people who vote, certainly.
  MR. BURDETT-COUTTSsaid the hon. Member had answered that it meant two-thirds of the people who voted. That was exactly what the supporters of the Amendment wished to have. Four-fifths of the parents—he used the shortest phrase—should be defined as meaning four-fifths of the parents who voted on the question. That appeared to him to be the only fair way of getting at an accurate estimate which would enable a decision to be come to. He would venture to give the Committee an illustration, drawn from his own experiences. Some years ago before the extinction of the Metropolitan Board of Works, he was engaged in a project of public benefit, which required a large sum of money. This had to be obtained from various public sources, and all the contributions were made dependent on a contribution from a vestry. They carried the proposal by a two-thirds majority of those present, and voting at a meeting of the vestry. Then it was objected that a two-thirds majority, not of those voting, but of the whole vestry, was required to sanction the expenditure. The law left the matter in doubt, and for want of a clear definition of the words "a two-thirds majority" the whole project was hung up for some time. He submitted that no such doubt ought to attach to this clause, and therefore he supported the Amendment. He could not find any logical reason put forward by the Government for treating the ballot in this matter on different lines from the ballot in every other matter in which it was resorted to in this country. As to the remarks of the Solicitor-General, they only led to the conclusion that we ought to amend our electoral system so that in future a candidate should be elected to this House by the majority of the constituency and not by the majority of those who voted.
  1020
  That was the principle applied in this Bill, and it seemed to him altogether unreasonable, illogical, confusing and likely to leave a legal doubt about the meaning of the words.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he was certain that, so far as Catholics were concerned, the matter was of such importance that the vote would be exhaustive; but he thought the Amendment of his hon. friend should be supported, not because it was required, but to safeguard cases of what would be undoubted hardship and injustice if a man who was unable to register his vote was to be regarded as opposed to what in reality everyone knew he desired. When he was in Australia last year one of the things most largely commented upon to the detriment of the Labour Party there was that a small percentage of the electors went to the poll, and it was assumed that those who did not take the trouble to vote were against the Labour Party. Nothing could be more untrue. The vast majority of those who did not vote were in sympathy with the Labour Party, and they did not go to the poll because of the distance, or because it was unnecessary to swell the majority, or because they were prevented from voting by the conditions of their ordinary everyday life. The proposition here laid down, that a man who did not vote for a proposition must necessarily be against it, was. a new and dangerous doctrine, and he did not subscribe to it. The Government wanted to put the Catholic elector in this position. If he was prevented from registering his vote at a stated time and place, he was to be regarded as against the suggestion that the religion in which he believed should be taught to his children in the school. It was an unfair suggestion, and one which would work with great injustice in the case of many people. The Government ought to reconsider the matter. What could be fairer than the Amendment which said that the votes which were cast should count, and that the votes which were not cast should not count? He did not know why the Government should lay down the astounding proposition that every man who did not register his vote must

  1021
  be taken to be against the proposition voted on.
  MR. GARDNERsaid there had been some confusion in the discussion. They were not to have a ballot at all. They were to have a mixture of open voting and ballot voting. Moreover, the parents were not counted, but the children. The vote in the ballot was to be valued according to the number of children a parent had in the school. The result would be very curious. In a school of 200 children, if ten parents, each with four children, did not vote, it would vitiate the whole election, and the rest of the parents could not have what they wanted. The only way out of the difficulty was that those who wished to express their opinion as to what should be done should give their votes personally, and only their votes should be counted.
  MR. J. WARDsaid he understood that the whole tendency and meaning of the clause was to give to the parents representing four-fifths of the children attending the school an opportunity of secretly registering their request for special facilities. He did not understand that there was to be a canvass of all the parents to ask them to give a vote for or against, because that would breed bad feeling. It was a subject which ought not to be under discussion in any shape or form. The Amendment was absolutely absurd.
  MR. H. R. MANSFIELDsaid he could not see what good the ballot was to be if it was only to register "for," and not "against." He himself had seen letters which had been sent to parents by their children from school, saying that it was the desire of the Government to get rid of the Bible out of the schools and asking the parents to vote against any such decision. He believed any amount of influence would be brought to bear on parents not to vote against. That was pernicious, and that was why they wanted the ballot to enable the people, under the secrecy of the ballot, to vote for or against the proposal. If all those who did not vote were to be brought up to a public inquiry to give their reason as to why
  1022
  they did not vote, then indeed there was an end of the ballot. He hoped the Government would continue the policy of the ballot right through to the end, and that they would not weaken. Some Members of the Ministerial Party viewed with alarm the concessions already made; they had all gone one way, and he hoped that the right of the parents to speak by the ballot, without the eye of the clergyman or the trustees being upon them, would be preserved.
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid he wanted to say a word on the functions of the inquiry which was to be held after the ballot had taken place. There were two elements to be ascertained—not only the wishes of the parents in regard to facilities, but also the number of parents who desired other accommodation. The number of absentees from the ballot would be smaller than the number usual in an ordinary election, the regulations being drawn up for the purpose of giving every opportunity for the wishes of parents to be ascertained. So much did the noble Lord the Member for Chorley fear that his co-religionists would not come up to the ballot, that he said that if this Amendment were not passed the facilities given to the Church of England schools would be worthless. According, then, to the opinion of the noble Lord, the parents in the Church of England did not care for the facilities.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid he gave most emphatic repudiation to that remark.
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid that the noble Lord could not deny that that was the effect of his words. He had got the words down. Let the Committee consider what the effect of them was. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham in speaking of denominational schools made a statement with which they were all familiar, but he doubted very much whether the country and the Committee had weighed its importance. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had no sympathy with those who laid stress upon ordinary facilities. That was an attitude which seemed to be shared by the hon. Member for East Mayo, who said that the ordinary facilities were of no advantage to them, but they must have distinct facilities.

  1023
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, therefore, sympathised with those who said that the ordinary facilities were of no use, because he said that what the denominationalists desired was not merely the teaching of their special creeds, but that there should be something mysterious, unstable and intangible, which formed the atmosphere of the school and which they wished to preserve.
  LORD R. CECILrose to order and asked if this argument had anything to do with the Amendment.
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid he would not pursue the matter further if the noble Lord objected, especially as he felt that he was taking up time which might be used by Members of the Opposition. All that he would say was that they had also to consider this "atmosphere" in regard to the minority. They had to consider it not only in regard to the four-fifths, but also in regard to the one-fifth, who, it seemed, were ex hypothesi to be kept in an atmosphere which was dangerous to their creed.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that those children could go to places where their own creed was taught.
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid the hon. Member was not quite right, because they were dealing with schools which were part of a national system of education, and many of the children were there under compulsion. Therefore they ought not only to consider the four-fifths, but the one fifth.
  MR. RAWLINSONappealed to the Government to reconsider their attitude to this Amendment and thus avoid doing the injustice to the scheme of the Bill in its original form,
  and also to the managers of voluntary schools. This scheme of the ballot was introduced at the last moment and it seemed to him that it was indifferently understood by hon. Members and by the Government. His view was that a ballot based on a special register such as that provided by the Government's Amendments on the Paper was absolutely inapplicable in a case of this kind Unless they could obtain the votes, not of 80 per cent of the parents who were interested, many of whom might have removed from the district during the six months before the ballot was taken, but of 80 per cent of the people on this special register, the clause would become inoperative. Great injustice would be done to the denominational schools if the Amendment was not adopted.
  MR. NIELDsaid they were still left in a state of considerable doubt and obscurity as to the meaning of the word "parents," in relation to this ballot which was suggested and by this clause intended to be set up. We had had a variety of electoral systems, but we had never had such a machinery as was now suggested by the Government for ascertaining the views of the majority of the parents of the children. It seemed to him that the Government had set up an artificially constructed ballot in order to make the position of the parents who desired the continuance of denominational teaching as difficult as possible. He ventured to say that a system in which the number of persons who had not recorded their votes was to be taken into account had never been known in the electoral system of this country.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 158; Noes, 295. (Division List No. 159.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Acland-Hood, Rt.Hn.SirAlex F.

  Balfour, Rt HnA.J.(City Lond.)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Ambrose, Robert

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Blake, Edward

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Boland, John

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Ashley, W. W.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.SirH.

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Balcarres, Lord

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Dowd, John

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

  Hogan, Michael

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N.

  Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Malley, William

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm.

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Mara, James

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  O'Shee, James John

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Paul, Herbert

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Keswick, William

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Kilbride, Denis

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cox, Harold

  King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

  Rawlinson, John Fredrick P.

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Reddy, M.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

  Crean, Eugene

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Lockwood, RtHn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cross, Alexander

  Lundon, W.

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Delany, William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Dillon, John

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  M'Kean, John

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Doughty, Sir George

  M'Killop, W.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Seddon, J.

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Duffy, William J.

  Meagher, Michael

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark Govan

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Snowden, P.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Starkey, John R.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Fell, Arthur

  Mooney, J. J.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Ffrench, Peter

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Sullivan, Donal

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Murnaghan, George

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Murphy, John

  Valentia, Viscount

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nield, Herbert

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Forster, Henry William

  Nolan, Joseph

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Ginnell, L.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Young, Samuel

  Glover, Thomas

  O'Brien, William (Cork)

  Younger, George

  Haddock, George R.

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Halpin, J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Hammond, John

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Thomas Esmonde and Cap-

  Hardy, Laurence(KentAshford

  O'Doherty, Philip

  tain Donelan.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bertram, Julius

  Cairns, Thomas

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

  Cameron, Robert

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Agnew, George William

  Billson, Alfred

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cawley, Frederick

  Alden, Percy

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

  Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brace, William

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Branch, James

  Cleland, J. W.

  Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

  Brigg, John

  Clough, W.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Coats, SirT.Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Barlow John Emmott(Somerset

  Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Bryce, RtHn. James(Aberdeen)

  Collins, SirWm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Cooper, G. J.

  Beale, W. P.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Corbett, CH(Sussex, E. Grinst'd

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Benn, John Williams (Devonp'rt

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Cory, Clifford John

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  1026

  1027

  Cowan, W. H.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpton.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea)

  Richardson, A.

  Crombie, John William

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Crooks, William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Crossley, William J.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Lambert, George

  Rowlands, J.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lamont, Norman

  Russell, T. W.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Layland-Barratt, Francia

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.

  Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Leese, SirJosephF. (Accrington.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Lehmann, K. C.

  Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester

  Dodd, W. H.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Sears, J. E.

  Duckworth, James

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

  Levy, Maurice

  Shackleton, David James

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Lough, Thomas

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Macdonald. J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Maclean, Donald

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Spicer, Albert

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  M'Arthur, William

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Callum, John M.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Ferens, T. R.

  M'Crae, George

  Steadman, W. C.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln)

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)

  Summerbell, T.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Gill, A. H.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Massie, J.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Menzies, Walter

  Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

  Greenwood. Hamar (York)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Mond, A.

  Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

  Gulland, John W.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Tillett, Louis John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Montagu, E. S.

  Tomkinson, James

  Hare curt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Torrance, A. M.

  Hardy. George A. (Suffolk)

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Toulmin, George

  Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)

  Morrell, Philip

  Verney, F. W.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Morse, L. L.

  Vivian, Henry

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Murray, James

  Wallace, Robert

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Myer, Horatio

  Walsh, Stephen

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Napier, T. B.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Newnes, Sir G. (Swansea)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nicholls, George

  Wardle, George J.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney).

  Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Higham, John Sharp

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Hodge, John

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk,Eye

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Perks, Robert William

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pollard, Dr.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford,E.

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Radford, G. H.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Williamson, A

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

  Wilson, H, J. (York. W. R.)

  1028

  1029

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Winfrey, R

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T.(Huddersf'd

  Pease.

  Wilson, W. T (Westhoughton)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  LORD R. CECILsaid he desired to move the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin—to leave out the words "public schools" from the first line of paragraph (b). The object was that it should not be necessary to find for the children of the minority another school altogether, provided that sufficient accommodation was afforded either in the four-fifths school itself or somewhere else, for giving them the religious instruction they required. The object of paragraph (b) was quite plain. The theory of the paragraph was that in single school areas it was not fair that the school should be a four-fifths school, or, in other words that there must be provision for the teaching of a Nonconformist child other than in a Church school. Something would have to be done to alter the clause as it stood. What did it amount to? That where three-fourths of the children were members of the Church of England and one-quarter members of the Nonconformist body then they could take from the three-fourths the religious instruction they desired and force upon them the religious instruction which only one-fourth of the children attending the school desired. That did not appear to him to be justice. It was the duty of the Government as far as possible to provide that no child attending a public elementary school should suffer in any way by this Bill in the matter of religious instruction, and to see that every child should receive the religious instruction that its parents desired. If the Amendment were carried no doubt that idea would be nearly secured. The only solution which hon. Members would be compelled to adopt sooner or later, unless they accepted what was proposed in this Amendment, would be one involving purely secular teaching. In that way they would as nearly as possible secure all children against the injustice of receiving religious instruction which they did not require. It was of the utmost importance to provide in every way for meeting the religious objections of the parents. Although the
  1030
  clause was by no means a perfect one, it contained the germ of a settlement, and it was a matter of satisfaction to him that its principle had been upheld by the Party opposite, believing, as he did, that sooner or later they would be compelled to make that principle a reality in the education of the country.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 3, line 9, to leave out the work is 'public school,' "—(Lord R. Cecil.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. DILLONsaid the Amendment raised an exceedingly important question—the question why it should be made a condition of giving these extended facilities that the children whose parents did not desire the facilities should have to be accommodated in other schools. It was made a complaint by Nonconformists against Clause 4 that these children were to be turned out of the schools. He did not see why this requirement should apply in the case of schools into which the minority had entered willingly. The parents, unasked, had sent their children to those schools with the present religious instruction in full swing, and therefore, it was perfectly clear that there was no conscientious difficulty. By the very structure of the clause it only applied to schools into which these children went, not from compulsion but from choice. He would ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to apply the principle of fair play and equal treatment in this matter. Let them take the ordinary provided schools. There they had a system which had been described by Dr. Clifford as civic Protestantism. Did they insist before they allowed this civic Protestantism to be taught in this country that there should be other school accommodation? If they did not, where was the equality and fair play? Where was. the justice of compelling the minority in a provided school, where civic Protestantism was taught to remain there, through want of other accommodation,

  1031
  and of saying that denominational schools should not have the right to teach the religion of the Church of England or Catholic religion to four-fifths, until the other children found accommodation in other schools? That was not justice. In the vast majority of schools that came under Clause 4, where children of another religion went into the schools of their own freewill, accepting the religious instruction given, there was no justice or reason in insisting as a condition of the continuation of the instruction that accommodation should be found in other schools for those children.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONunderstood there might be some difficulty in dealing with the one-fifth children whose parents did not fall in with the religious education given in the denominational school. The alternative school was supposed to be an adequate provision for them, but he thought hon. Members were now pretty well aware that the law was not the only compulsory force which drove the children into a particular school. Distance, convenience, and safety were strong forces which sometimes compelled their entrance into schools their parents might not otherwise choose. If it was intended by this Amendment that Church of England teaching or Cowper-Temple teaching might be given inside a Roman Catholic school, in some other class-room, at the same time as the extended facilities teaching was given by the authorised person, he saw no reason for opposing the suggestion. He preferred undenominational education, but he was bound to say that as Clause 4 gave very large facilities for those who preferred denominational education he could not see why the Government should not accept the offer now made by the hon. Member for East Mayo. If the matter were pressed to a division he would go into the lobby with the hon. Member.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid he gathered from the nature of the cheers on the other side of the House that they anticipated the welcome which he desired to give to the speech that had just been delivered. He only desired to point out to the hon. Member for the Morley Division that the
  1032
  suggestion had been made by other speakers besides the Member for East Mayo, and by no one more earnestly than by himself. The proposal was for universal facilities, and he joined in pressing on the Government the solution which he had already suggested. Whether or not there should be entire separation between religious and secular instruction, so far as payment either out of taxes or rates was concerned, there should be universal facilities for those who dissented from the teaching in any given school to secure for their children the kind of religious education which they desired. Where children, owing to reasons of distance, convenience, and the like, were sent for secular education to a school at which religious instruction was given of which their parents did not approve, it would be very unsafe to rely upon those parents to support the managers in securing the continuance of the religious instruction now given.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid the construction which the right hon. Gentleman put upon the Amendment was that it would make facilities universal. That was a course which the Government could not adopt. They had made the course they had taken perfectly plain. It was part and parcel of the proposals of Clause 4 that the facilities should not be extended unless there was in the area where the four-fifths school was set up, undenominational accommodation in a public school for the children who did not desire the facilities. This was a very difficult Amendment to deal with. It started off by leaving out the words "public school." Those words had a technical meaning. Parliament, by Section 5 of the Act of 1870, had required the provision of a sufficient amount of public school accommodation without payment of a fee. It was essential that there should be in an area where a four-fifths school was set up sufficient public-school accommodation—accommodation in a school where no fee was charged— for the children whose parents did not desire these facilities. That was one technical reason why it was impossible to accept the Amendment. The Bill proceeded on the assumption that the children were not required to go to the four-fifths school, and, if their parents

  1033
  refused, that there should be public school accommodation elsewhere. It was not proposed, as the hon. Member for East Mayo suggested, that the one-fifth should be turned out, but only that there should be another school to which they could go if they wanted to.
  MR. DILLON: Supposing they all declared they did not want to go, must they still have the other accommodation provided for them?
  MR. BIRRELLsaid no, and that was not the point. The objection to the noble Lord's proposal was that the one-fifth might be kept in the school against their will. If they were satisfied with the school they could vote for it, and that school would then get the facilities. But it was perfectly plain that if they were dissatisfied, and did not want their children educated in the school with these extended facilities, it was part and parcel, a sine qua non of the proposal of the Government that there should be a public school within the area in which they could receive their secular instruction. The Government view was that in the four-fifths school there might be denominational teaching every day in the week, and they did not wish to introduce into these four-fifths schools what was called the "Cowper-Temple religion." Neither did they wish to compel any child to receive this denominational teaching if its parents objected to it. Therefore, anyone who had made a study of Clause 4 would see that it was impossible for the Government to accept this Amendment.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the right hon. Gentleman had spoken of those who had made a special study of Clause 4. A great many of them had made a special study of the clause, but they had seldom had a more difficult subject for investigation, and since the Government had set to work to amend it, the clause had become perfectly unintelligible. The right hon. Gentleman, with a confidence which really surprised him, had spoken as if the Committee were seised of the method by which the Education Department and the local authority were to make themselves acquainted with the
  1034
  wishes of the one-fifth minority. They had not the least notion how the opinion of the one-fifth was to be ascertained. Would the Government destroy the denominational character of a school where there was one-fifth of a different denomination, but who did not want to go anywhere else? The Bill required other accommodation to be found for the minority. Why go to that expense if the existing accommodation were satisfactory? Why, if there were no other accommodation, destroy the denominational character of the school? The right hon. Gentleman was ingenious in his defence of Clause 4. Whenever it was criticised, he said with engaging frankness that it was a wretched, indefensible, and inconsistent clause, but that its critics ought to be thankful for having any clause at all. By rejecting an Amendment evidently calculated to carry out the wishes of the parents, the right hon. Gentleman had excited the disgust of the hon. Member for Morley, who spoke for the Nonconformists. [Cries of "No."] The hon. Member used to speak for the Nonconformists, and his fate was a sad example of the mutability of human fortunes. The hon. Member had lapsed into a generous and tolerant attitude towards those who did not agree with him in their religious and educational views. What was the result? Faithful service extending over many years, laborious efforts made all through the protracted debates of 1902 against the iniquitous provisions of a flagitious measure—all these were vain, one lapse into generosity had wiped out the services of years. The hon. Member would be driven in the long run to take his place among the small but faithful band of Liberal Churchmen, or even to cross the floor of the House and utter his criticisms of the Government in a less chilling atmosphere and amid less hostile surroundings. But though the right hon. Gentleman was obdurate to persuasion, the case submitted was difficult to resist-There was the case of the school mentioned by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham—a school built, recently, entirely out of Church funds, in the neighbourhood of board schools and yet containing a considerable number of Nonconformist children. The Government asserted that the parents of these

  1035
  children would, if they preferred a denominational to a Board School for their children, vote for the continuance of the denominational system. Surely, that was the last course which knowledge of human nature suggested as probable. By the provisions of the Bill the Government, while surely doing all they could for the one-third of Nonconformist children who voluntarily went to that school, might have some consideration for the two-thirds whose money had been spent in providing the school, seeing that it remained in the possession of the denomination as a denominational school, with the power of having special facilities for the two-thirds of the school children adhering to the denomination. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Amendment was contrary to the plan of the Government. This procedure had been adopted by the Government throughout these debates. He believed that the clause was genuinely intended as some relief to the denominationalists, and as such he had intended to welcome it. But when he found that everything which prevented the clause from being a delusion was rejected, that everything which turned a sham into a reality was cast aside with scorn, he did not know whether he would not express his own feelings worse by supporting the clause than by voting against it. The right hon. Gentleman had shown no attempt to meet the Opposition, neither had he attempted to make the clause a reality. ["Oh, oh."] The right hon. Gentleman's xcuse was that this was an undeominational Bill, and a denominational
  clause stuck into it was an anomaly, and, being an anomaly, they could not expect the work to be artistically perfect. Was, then, the clause worthy the support of the Committee in its present shape? ["No."] In view of the line which the right hon. Gentleman had taken, it was a very difficult question to answer; but it was clear that no denomination would really gain by the clause unless it was profoundly amended at some later stage of the Bill. Unfortunately, the Opposition were not in a position to compel the production of these Amendments on the Committee stage, as might have been the case had there been greater opportunities of discussion. There were cases in which no Government could stand the reiterated expression of unanswerable arguments. The arguments were unanswerable, but they could not be reiterated, and in Committee the Clause would pass with all its imperfections upon it. But if it remained permanently in the shape in which the Government desired to pass it at present, the idea that it was a valuable concession to certain great interests in the country was a complete delusion. Change would have to be introduced in it at future stages, and they must be real and substantial if they were to carry out the policy which the Government themselves professed.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 367; Noes, 197. (Division list No. 160.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Brace, William

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barnard, E. B.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Barnes, G. N.

  Branch, James

  Agnew, George William

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brigg, John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Beauchamp, E.

  Brocklehurst, W D.

  Alden, Percy

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Brooke, Stopford

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

  Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Armitage, R.

  Benn, W. (T'wr HamletsS. Geo.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Bennett, E. N.

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

  Bertram, Julius

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Billson, Alfred

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Barlow, John E. (Somerset)

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Arthur, William,

  Cawley, Frederick

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richird B.

  M'Cullum, John M.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Crae, George

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  M Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Harmsworth, R.L.(Caith'ss-sh)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Clough, W.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew. W.)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mansfield, H. Randall (Lincoln)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n)

  Collins, Sir W.J.(S. Pancras, W.)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Marnham, F. J.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Massie, J,

  Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.

  Menzies, Walter

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon. S.)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Cory, Clifford John

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Mond, A.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Crombie, John William

  Hodge, John

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Crooks, William

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Cross, Alexander

  Hooper, A. G.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Crossley, William J.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset, N.

  Morrell, Philip

  Davies, D. (Montgomery Co.)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Morse, L. L.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardiner

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Murray, James

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Myer, Horatio

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Napier, T. B.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Newnes, F. (Notts. Bassetlaw)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Nicholls, George

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Norman, Henry

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Dodd, W. H.

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Duckworth, James

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Duncan, C.(Barrow-inFurness)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Partington, Oswald

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Paul, Herbert

  Dunne, Maj. E. Martin(Walsall)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Kelley, George D.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Pearson, W.H-M.(Suffolk, Eye)

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Perks, Robert William

  Erskine, David C.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Lambert, George

  Pollard, Dr.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lamont, Norman

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk.E.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Leese, Sir J. A. (Accrington)

  Radford, G. H

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Rainy, A. Rollaud

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Raphael, Herbert H-

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Levy, Maurice

  Rees, J. D.

  Gill, A. H.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herb. John

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lough, Thomas

  Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

  Glover, Thomas

  Lupton, Arnold

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'n)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Richardson, A.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Grove, Archibald

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Maclean, Donald

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Gulland, John W.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

  1038

  1039

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Robinson, S.

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Rose, Charles Bay

  Strauss, B. S. (Mile End)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Rowlands, J.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Runciman, Walter

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Russell, T. W.

  Summerbell, T.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Schwann, C. Duncan. (Hyde)

  Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Sears, J. E.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Seddon, J.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E.

  Williams, L. (Carmarthen)

  Shackleton, David James

  Tillett, Louis John

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Tomkinson, James

  Williamson, A.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Torrance, A. M.

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Toulmin, George

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Verney, F. W.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)'

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Winfrey, R.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Wallace, Robert

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Snowden, P.

  Walsh, Stephen.

  Woodhouse, SirJ. T. (Huddersf'd.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Walters, John Tudor

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Walton, Sir J. L. (Leeds, S.)

  Spicer, Albert

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampt'n)

  Pease.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Wardle, George J.

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Worc.

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Chance, Frederick William

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Ginnell, L.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Haddock, George R.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Halpin, J.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Hammond, John

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Balfour, Rt. HnAJ(City Lond.)

  Cox, Harold

  Harwood, George

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Craig, Captain James (Down,E.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Banner, John S. Harmood

  Crean, Eugene

  Hazleton, Richard

  Baring, Hn. Guy (Winchester)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Delany, William

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway)

  Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds)

  Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

  Dillon, John

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D.

  Hogan, Michael

  Blake, Edward

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Boland, John

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Joyce, Michael

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Duffy, William J.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark. Govan

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Kenyon-Slaney. Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Keswick, William

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Kilbride, Denis

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Farrell, James Patrick

  King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Fell, Arthur

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Cave, George

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Lee, ArthurH (Hants, Fareham)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

  Chamberlain, Rt, Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  1040

  1041

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin S)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  O'Brien, Wm. (Cork)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Lundon, W.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Saunderson, RtHn. Col. Edw. J.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Smith, FE. (Liverpool, Walton)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  O'Dowd, John

  Starkey, John R.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  M'Kean, John

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Talbot, RtHn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.)

  M'Killop, W.

  O'Malley, William

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  O'Mara, James

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Tumour, Viscount

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  O'Shee, James John

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Meagher, Michael

  Pease, HerbertPike (Darlington

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Percy, Earl

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Mooney, J. J.

  Reddy, M.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Murnaghan, George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Murphy, John

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Young, Samuel

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Younger, George

  Nield, Herbert

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Nolan, Joseph

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Viscount Valentia.

  And, it being after half-past Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded to put the Question on the Amendments proposed by the Government of which notice had been given, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 18th June.
  Amendment made—
  "In page 3, line 20, by inserting, after the word 'inquiry,' the words 'and cause a ballot to be taken.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 360; Noes 200. (Division List No. 161.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Branch, James

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barnes, G. N.

  Brigg, John

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Agnew, George William

  Beale, W. P.

  Brodie, H. C.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Beauchamp, E.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Alden, Percy

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Brunner, Sir John T.(Cheshire)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Benn John Williams (Devonp'rt

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James Aberdeen)

  Armitage, R.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bertram, Julius

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Asquith, RtHn. HerbertHenry

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Billson, Alfred

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

  Byles, William Pollard

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Cameron, Robert

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

  Brace, William

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knigh

  Cawley, Frederick

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Marnham, F. J.

  Clough, W.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Massie, J.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras, W

  Higham, John Sharp

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Cooper, G. J.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Mond, A.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Corbett, CH(Sussex, E.Grinst'd

  Hodge, John

  Montagu, E. S.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Crombie, John William

  Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset, N)

  Morrell, Philip

  Crooks, William

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Morse, L. L.

  Cross, Alexander

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Crossley, William J.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Murray, James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Myer, Horatio

  Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Napier, T. B.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Nicholls, George

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Nicholson, Chas.N.(Doncaster

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Norman, Henry

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Dickinson, W.H.(S.Pancrs,N.)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Nuttall, Harry

  Dilke Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

  Paul, Herbert

  Dodd, W. H.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Duckworth, James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Kelley, George D.

  Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke

  Dunne, Major E.Martin(Walsall

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pollard, Dr.

  Erskine, David C.

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

  Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk,E.)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lambert, George

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lamont, Norman

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Radford, G. H.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rainy, A. Holland

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lea, HughCecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Rees, J. D.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Levy, Maurice

  Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

  Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Richardson, A.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lough, Thomas

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lupton, Arnold

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Macdonald, J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs

  Robinson, S.

  Grove, Archibald

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Maclean, Donald

  Rose, Charles Day

  Gulland, John W.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rowlands, J.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Arthur, William

  Runciman, Walter

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Callum, John M.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Crae, George

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Harmsworth, RL. (Caithn'ss-sh

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  1044

  1045

  Schwann, Cbas. E.(Manchester)

  Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

  Weir, James Galloway

  Sears, J. E.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Shackleton, David James

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Thompson, J.W.H.(S'mers'tE,

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Tillett, Louis John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Tomkinson, James

  Wiles, Thomas

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Torrance, A. M.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Toulmin, George

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Williams Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Verney, F. W.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Snowdon, P.

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Williamson, A.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Vivian, Henry

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Walker, H. De R.(Leicester)

  Wilson, Hon.C.H.W.(Hull,W.)

  Spicer, Albert

  Wallace, Robert

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.N.)

  Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Walton, SirJohn L. (Leeds, S.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Winfrey, R.

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Ward, John(Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Ward, W.Dudley(Southampton

  Woodhouse, Sir JT(Hudd'rsfi'

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Wardle, George J.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Summerbell, T.

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Pease.

  Taylor, John W.(Durham)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Hammond, John

  Ambrose, Robert

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cowan, W. H.

  Harwood, George

  Ashley, W. W.

  Craig, Captain James(Down,E.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.SirH

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Balcarres, Lord

  Crean, Eugene

  Hazleton, Richard

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Balfour, RtHnA.J.(CityLond.)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey)

  Delany, William

  Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway

  Hill, SirClement(Shrewsbury)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Dillon, John

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

  Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester)

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Hogan, Michael

  Barrie, H.T.(Londonderry, N.)

  Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Beach, Hon. MichaelHughHicks

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Joyce, Michael

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Doughty, Sir George

  Kennaway, Rt.Hn. SirJohnH.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Blake, Edward

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt.Hn.Col.W.

  Boland, John

  Duffy, William J.

  Keswick, William

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark Govan)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Fell, Arthur

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lee, ArthurH.(Hants., Farehan

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Cave, George

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.

  Cavendish, Rt.Hon. VictorC.W.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Forster, Henry William

  Lundon, W.

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Chamberlain, Rt.Hon.J.(Birm.)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down,S.)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J. A. (Worc

  Ginnell, L.

  MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,S.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Glover, Thomas

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Haddock, George R.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Halpin, J.

  M'Iver, SirLewis(Edinburgh W.

  1046

  1047

  M'Kean, John

  O'Dowd, John

  Seddon, J.

  M'Killop, W.

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roseommon, N.)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  O Maliey, William

  Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  O Mara, James

  Starkey, John R.

  Meagher, Michael

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Sullivan, Donal

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Talbot, Rt. HnJ.G.(Oxf'd Univ

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  O'Shee, James John

  Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Percy, Earl

  Turnour, Viscount

  Mooney, J. J.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancash.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Murnaghan, George

  Reddy, M.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Murphy, John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Nield, Herbert

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Nolan, Joseph

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.)

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  O'Brien, William (Cork)

  Rothschild, Hon.Lionel Walter

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

  Russell, T. W.

  Young, Samuel

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Younger, George

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:—Sir

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Viscount Valentia.

  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 3, line 22, at the end, to insert the words 'extended facilities shall not be afforded under this section except where the use of the schoolhouse is given, or the schoolhouse is transferred, to the local education authority free of any rent or other payment.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  Amendment made—
  "In page 3, line 25, by inserting, after the word 'inquiry,' the words 'and causing a ballot to be taken.' "—(Mr. Birrell.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 2, at the end, to add the words 'where the local education authority refuse to agree to an arrangement offered to them by the owners of the schoolhouse of an existing voluntary school as respects the use of the schoolhouse, and the school is one in respect of which extended facilities could be granted under this section, and are desired, the owners of the schoolhouse may appeal to the Board of Education, and that Board may, if they think fit, after considering the circumstances of the case, and the wishes of the parents of children attending the school as to the continuance of the school with extended facilities, by order, make an arrangement under this Act with respect to the use of the schoolhouse on such terms and conditions as may be contained in the order, including, if thought fit, a condition requiring extended facilities to be afforded, but if under any special circumstances of the case the Board think it expedient, they may, instead of making such an arrangement, make an order allowing the school to continue as a State-aided school. Provided that—
  1048
  "'(a) An order shall not be made under this provision unless the schoolhouse is, in the opinion of the Board of Education, structurally suitable; and (b) An arrangement made by order for the use of a schoolhouse under this provision shall not have effect for more than five years.
  "'It shall be the duty of the local education authority to comply with any condition contained in any arrangement made by an order under this section.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
  Question proposed, "That the Amendment be made."
  MR. STANLEY WILSONon a point of order, said that at the commencement of the debate on Clause 4 the Chairman ruled an Amendment, which stood in the name of the noble Lord the Member for Chichester, out of order because the Committee had already settled by Clause 1 that every public elementary school should become a provided school. He therefore submitted that according to

  1049
  that ruling this Amendment also was out of order.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the ruling which he gave on the Amendment of the noble Lord the Member for Chichester was because the words he proposed would have left a very large class of schools in a condition which would have been a contravention of a decision to which the Committee had already come. In this case the matter was different. The ruling on which questions of this kind should be treated was that Amendments should not be allowed to introduce a system inconsistent with the principle already laid down. He must say in regard to this particular Amendment that lie could not in any case rule it out of
  order, because he was not at all sure that the State-aided schools would be recognised as public elementary schools. That alone would prevent him from ruling it out of order; but even if that consideration were out of the way any conclusion to which they had come would not prevent an Amendment permitting standing out in exceptional cases. The effect of the Government Amendment was merely to add one other small exception of a very limited character to those already contained in Clause 38.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 318; Noes, 161. (Division List No. 162.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Branch, James

  Cory, Clifford John

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Brigg, John

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Bright, J. A.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Agnew, George William

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brodie, H. C.

  Crombie, John William

  Armitage, R.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Cross, Alexander

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brunner, J.F. L. (Lancs. Leigh)

  Crossley, William J.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brunner, Sir J. T. (Cheshire)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

  Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dickinson, W.H.(St.Panras, N.

  Barlow, John E. (Somerset)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn.SydneyChas.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Dodd, W. H.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cameron, Robert

  Duckworth, James

  Beale, W. P.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Beauchamp, E.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Dunne, Maj. E, Martin (Walsall

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Chance, Frederick William

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Benn, John Williams(Devonp't

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets S.Geo

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Erskine, David C.

  Bertram, Julius

  Clarke, C. Goddard:

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

  Clough, W.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Billson, Alfred

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Fenwick, Charles

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire.N.E.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon, Sir Henry

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Corbett, C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'd

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

  Lynch, H. B.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Macdonald,JM (Falkirk B'ghs.)

  Rowlands, J.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Runciman, Walter

  Gooch, George Peabody

  M'Arthur, William

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland),

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  M'Crae, George

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Schwann, Chas.E (Manchester)

  Grove, Archibald

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Sears, J.E.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Gulland, John W.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton-

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Shaw, Charles Edw (Stafford)

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick, B.)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn's-ssh

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Massie, J.

  Sinclair, Rt, Hon. John

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Menzies, Walter.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mond, A.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Spicer, Albert

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Montagu, E. S.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Henderson, J.M(Aberdeen, W.)

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morrell, Philip

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morse, L. L.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Hodge, John

  Murray, James

  Stewart, James (Sunderland)

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Myer, Horatio

  Sutherland, J. F.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Napier, T. B.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffee

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nicholls, George

  Tennant, H J. (Berwickshire)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Norman, Henry

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Norton, Capt. Cecil Williams

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Thompson, J.W.H. (Somerset,E

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nuttall, Harry

  Tomkinson, James

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Torrance, A. M.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Partington, Oswald

  Toulmin, George

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Paul, Herbert

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Johnson, John (Gat shead)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Verney, F. W.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester)

  Vivian, Henry

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Pearson, W.HM(Suffolk, Eye)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Philipps, Col Ivor(S'thampton)

  Wallace, Robert

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke

  Walters, John Tudor

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Walton, Sir J.L. (Leeds, S.)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Ward, W. D. (Southampton)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Rainy, A. Holland

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Wason, John Catchart(Orkney

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Lambert, George

  Rees, J. D.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Lamont, Norman

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Weir, James Galloway

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Renton, Major Leslie

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Levy, Maurice

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Robertson, SirG Scott(Bradf'rd

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Williamson, A.

  Lough, Thomas

  Robinson, S.

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  1052

  1053

  Wilson, Hon. Ch. W. (Hull, W.)

  Winfrey, R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Wilson, J. W(Worcestersh. N.)

  Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd

  Pease.

  NOES.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Perks, Robert William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Forster, Henry William

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Radford, G. H.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Gill, A. H.

  Remnant, Jas. Farquharson

  Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Glover, Thomas

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'm't'n

  Balcarres, Lord

  Haddock, George R.

  Richardson, A.

  Balfour, Rt. HnA. J. (City Lond.

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harwood, George

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

  Hervey, F. W. F. (BurySEdm'ds

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Stafl'sh.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Seddon, J.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Shackleton, David James

  Brace, William

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Jowett, F. W.

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Kelley, George D.

  Snowden, P.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Starkey, John R.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Summerbell, T.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Keswick, William

  Talbot. Rt. Hn. J G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thomson,W. Mitchell (Lanark)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R.

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin. S.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Cleland, J. W.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Coates, E Feetham(Lewisham)

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Wardle, George J.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Craik, Sir Henry

  M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Crooks, William

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

  Doughty, Sir George

  Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

  Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Younger, George

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Nield, Herbert

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Faber George Denison (York)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Fell, Arthur

  Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Percy, Earl

  Amendment proposed—
  "After the words last added, to add the words (5) The parents of at least twenty
  1054
  children attending a transferred voluntary school, if aggrieved by the mode in which extended facilities are afforded by a local edu-

  1055
  cation authority, may appeal to the Board of Education, and that Board, if satisfied, after considering the circumstances of the case, that there are reasonable grounds for the appeal, may make an order allowing the school to continue as a State-aided school, and providing so far as necessary for the cancelling of any arrangement made with respect to the transfer or use of the schoolhouse and for any
  other matter for which provision is required in connection with the order.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 392; Noes, 156. (Division List No. 163.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork,N. E.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Duckworth, James

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Duffy, William J.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Agnew, George William

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Dunne,Major E. Martin(Walsall

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Armitage, R.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Cairns, Thomas

  Erskine, David C.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cameron, Robert

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Asquith. Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Astbury, John Meir

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Fenwick, Charles

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Ffrench, Peter

  Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Barnard, E. B.

  Clough, W.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir Walter

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

  Beale, W. P.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

  Cooper, G. J.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Corbett,CH(Sussex,E. Grinst'd

  Gilhooly, James

  Benn,John Williams(Devonport

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Ginnell, L.

  Benn,W. (T'w'r Hamlets. S. Geo.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Crean, Eugene

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Bertram, Julius

  Cremer, William Randal

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Crombie, John William

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Billson, Alfred

  Cross, Alexander

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Crossley, William J.

  Grove, Archibald

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Boland, John

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Gulland, John W.

  Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Halpin, J.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hammond, John

  Branch, James

  Delany, William

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Brigg, John

  Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Bright, J. A.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras N.

  Harmsworth,R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Brodie, H. C.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Harrington, Timothy

  Brooke, Stopford

  Dillon, John

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Brunner,J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Brunner. Sir John T. (Cheshire)

  Dodd, W. H.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Rainy, A. Holland

  Hazleton, Richard

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Manfield, Harry (Northants.)

  Reddy, M.

  Henderson,J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)

  Marks,G. Groydon(Launceston)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Rees, J. D.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Rendall, Athlestan

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Massie, J.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Meagher, Michael

  Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

  Hodge, John

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Richardson, A.

  Hogan, Michael

  Menzies, Walter

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Mond, A

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Hope,W. Bateman(Somerset,N.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Robertson,SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Montagu, E. S.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Robinson, S.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Mooney, J. J.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Jackson, R. S.

  Morrell, Philip

  Rowlands, J.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Morse, L. L.

  Runciman, Walter

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Murnaghan, George

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Murphy, John

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Jones. David Brynmor(Swansea

  Murray, James

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Myer, Horatio

  Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester)

  Joyce, Michael

  Napier, T. B.

  Sears, J. E.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Nicholls, George

  Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Nicholson, CharlesN(Doncaster

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Nolan, Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Norman, Henry

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Kitson, Sir James

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

  Lambert, George

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Snowden, P.

  Lamont, Norman

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Spicer, Albert

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Leese,Sir Joseph E. (Accrington

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Lever,A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  O'Dowd, John

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  O'Malley, William

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Lough, Thomas

  O'Mara, James

  Sullivan, Donal

  Lundon, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  O'Shee, James John

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Partington, Oswald

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Paul, Herbert

  Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

  Macdonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

  Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye

  Thomasson, Franklin

  MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset,E

  M'Arthur, William

  Phillips. J Wynford(Pembroke

  Tomkinson, James

  M'Callum, John M.

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Torrance, A. M.

  M'Crae, George

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Toulmin, George

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Pollard, Dr.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  M'Kean, John

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Verney, F. W.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Price,C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  M'Killop, W.

  Price. Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

  Vivian, Henry

  1058

  1059

  Walker, H. De. R. (Leicester)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Wallace, Robert

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull, W.)

  Walters, John Tudor

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Winfrey, R.

  Ward, W. Dudley (South'mpt'n

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Hudd'rsfi'd

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Young, Samuel

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Williamson, A.

  A. Pease.

  NOES.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fell, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Ashley, W. W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  Nield, Herbert

  Balfour, RtHn. A. J. (CityLond.)

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gill, A. H.

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Glover, Thomas

  Percy, Earl

  Baring Hn. Guy (Winchester)

  Haddock, George R.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford

  Radford, G. H.

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Harrison Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Rawlinson, J. Frederick Peel

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harwood, George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Brace, William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey,F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Cave, George

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Seddon, J.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Jowett, F. W

  Shackleton, David James

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kelley, George D.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

  Keswick, William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc

  King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

  Starkey, John R.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Summerbell, T.

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd. Univ.

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A.R.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Turnour, Viscount

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Long. Rt Hn Walter(Dublin, S.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Crooks, William

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Ward, J. (Stoke-upon Trent)

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh, W

  Wardle, George J.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Williams, Col R. (Dorset, W.)

  Duncan,C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

  Masterman, C E G.

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.)

  1060

  1061

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Younger, George

  Alexander Acland-Hood

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Yoxall, James Henry

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Amendment made—
  "By adding, after the words last added, the words '(6) Where an order is made under this section allowing a school to continue as a State-aided school, the Board of Education may, notwithstanding anything in this Act, pay to that school, although it is not a school provided by the local education authority, the Parliamentary grants which would be payable in respect of the school or the scholars in the school if it was a school so provided, so long as all other statutory conditions affecting the payment of grants, so far as applicable to the school, are complied with in the case of the school.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 444; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 164.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork. N.E.)

  Benn,W. (T'W'rHamlets, S. Geo.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Bertram, Julius

  Cawley, Frederick

  Agnew, George William

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

  Chance, Frederick William

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Alden, Percy

  Billson, Alfred

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Ambrose, Robert

  Boland, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Armitage, R.

  Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brace, William

  Clough, W.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Branch, James

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brigg, John

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Bright, J. A.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Cooper, G. J.

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstd

  Barnard, E. B.

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Cowan, W. H.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Crean, Eugene

  Beale, W. P.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Cremer, William Randal

  Beauchamp, E.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Crombie, John William

  Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbourne

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Crooks, William

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Chas.

  Cross, Alexander

  Benn, John Williams (Devonp'rt

  Byles, William Pollard

  Crossley, William J.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

  Harwood, George

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Maclean, Donald

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Delany, William

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Hazleton, Richard

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  M'Arthur, William

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  M'Callum, John M.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  M'Crae, George

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Dillon, John

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.)

  M'Kean, John

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Dodd, W. H.

  Higham, John Sharp

  M'Killop, W.

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Duckworth, James

  Hodge, John

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Duffy, William J.

  Hogan, Michael

  Mallett, Charles E.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Marnham, F. J.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Massie, J.

  Erskine, David C.

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Meagher, Michael

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Issaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Menzies, Walter

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Jackson, R. S.

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Mond, A.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Ferens, T. R.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Montagu, E. S.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Jowett, F. W.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Joyce, Michael

  Morrell, Philip

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Morse, L. L.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Kelley, George D.

  Murnaghan, George

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Murphy, John

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Murray, James

  Gilhooly, James

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Myer, Horatio

  Gill, A. H.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Napier, T. B.

  Ginnell, L.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Nicholls, George

  Glover, Thomas

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lambert, George

  Nolan, Joseph

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Lamont, Norman

  Norman, Henry

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Nuttall, Harry

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Grove, Archibald

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Gulland, John W.

  Lever, W. H (Cheshire, Wirral)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Halpin, J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Hammond, John

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Lough, Thomas

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Lundon, W.

  O'Dowd, John

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Lupton, Arnold

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Lynch, H. B.

  O'Malley, William

  1064

  1065

  O'Mara, James

  Russell, T. W.

  Toulmin, George

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  O'Shee, James John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Verney, F. W.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Partington, Oswald

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Vivian, Henry

  Paul, Herbert

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester)

  Wallace, Robert

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Sears, J. E.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Seddon, J.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Perks, Robert William

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

  Shackleton, David James

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Wardle, George J.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Pollard, Dr.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Snowden, P.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Reddy, M.

  Spicer, Albert

  White, Patrick (Meath, North),

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Rees, J. D.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Richardson, A.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Williamson, A.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Summerbell, T.

  Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull, W.)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'd

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Winfrey, R.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Robinson, S.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Young, Samuel

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Rose, Charles Day

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Rowlands, J.

  Tomkinson, James

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Runciman, Walter

  Torrance, A. M.

  Pease.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Ashley, W. W.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cave, George

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Rt Hn. Victor C. W.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn, J. (Birm.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Fell, Arthur

  1066

  1067

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Forster, Henry William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W.

  Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton

  Haddock, George R.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent Ashford

  Marks, H. H (Kent)

  Starkey, John R.

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Turnour, Viscount

  Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Walker, Col. W.H.(Lancashire

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.

  Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Nield, Herbert

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Percy, Earl

  Wilson. A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Keswick, William

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Ropnor, Colonel Sir Robert

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. AR.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Viscount Valentia.

  Amendment proposed—
  "After the words last added, to add the words '(7) No child shall be reckoned, for the purposes of this section, as a child attending a school unless the child has attended the school with due regularity for at least six months in accordance with the code of minutes of the Board of Education for the time being in force in respect to public elementary schools, and if any question arises whether a child is a child attending a school for the purposes of this section that question shall be decided by the Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 415; Noes, 138. (Division List No. 165.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E)

  Billson, Alfred

  Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Boland, John

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Bolton, T.D.(Derybshire, N.E.)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Agnew, George William

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brace, William

  Cooper, G. J.

  Alden, Percy

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Branch, James

  Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, EGrinst'd

  Armitage, R.

  Brigg, John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brodie, H. C.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Brooke, Stopford

  Crean, Eugene

  Astbury, John Meir

  Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Atherley Jones, L.

  Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)

  Crombie, John William

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen

  Crooks, William

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Cross, Alexander

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Crossley, William J.

  Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Syndey Charles

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Beale, W. P.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Delany, William

  Beauchamp, E.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galwy

  Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cawley, Frederick

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dillon, John

  Benn, W (T'w'rHamlets,S. Geo.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cherry, Rt Hon. R. R.

  Dodd, W. H.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Bertram, Julius

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Bethell, J. H.(Essex, Romford)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Duckworth, James

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Duffy, William J.

  Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

  Jackson, R. S.

  Morse, L. L.

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Murnaghan, George

  Dunne, Major EMartin(Walsall

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Murphy, John

  Edwards, Clemeat (Denbigh)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Murray, James

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Myer, Horatio

  Ellis, Et. Hon. John Edward

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Napier, T. B.

  Erskine, David C.

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw

  Esmnonde, Sir Thomas

  Jowett, F. W.

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Joyce, Michael

  Nicholls, George

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Nicholson, Charles N(Doncast'r

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Nolan, Joseph

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Kelley, George D.

  Norman, Henry

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Ferens, T. R.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Ffrench, Peter

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Nuttall, Harry

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Laidlaw, Robert

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lambert, George

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lamont, Norman

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Gilhooly, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Dowd, John

  Gill, A. H.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Ginnell, L.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn HerbertJohn

  Lever, A.Levy (Essex, Harwich

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

  Glover, Thomas

  Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  O'Malley, William

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Mara, James

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  O Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Lough, Thomas

  O'Shee, James John

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Lundon, W.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Partington, Oswald

  Grove, Archibald

  Lynch, H. B.

  Paul, Herbert

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Gulland, John W.

  Macdonald, J.M (Falkirk B'ghs

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Pearson, Sir W. D.(Colchester)

  Halpin, J.

  Maclean, Donald

  Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye)

  Hammond, John

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S

  Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcs'r

  M'Arthur, William

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Harmsworth, R.L(Caithn'ssh

  M'Callum, John M.

  Pollard, Dr.

  Harrington, Timothy

  M'Crae, George

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Price. C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Kean, John

  Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.

  Harwood, George

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  M'Killop, W.

  Priestley, W.E.B(Bradford, E.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Hayden, John Patrick

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Hazleton, Richard

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Reddy, M.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rees, J. D.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Higham, John Sharp

  Massie, J.

  Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'n

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Meagher, Michael

  Richardson, A.

  Hodge, John

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Hogan, Michael

  Menzies, Walter

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N

  Mond, A.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Montagu, E. S.

  Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradford

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Mooney, J. J.

  Robinson, S.

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Morrell, Philip

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  1070

  1071

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney-

  Rose, Charles Day

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Rowlands, J.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Runciman, Walter

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Russell, T. W.

  Summerbell, T.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Schwann, Chas. E.(Manchester

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Sears, J. E.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Seddon, J.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Wiles, Thomas

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Thompson, J.W.H(Somerset, E.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Shackleton, David James

  Tomkinson, James

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Torrance, A. M.

  Williams, Llewellyn(Carm'rth'a

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Toulmin, George

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Williamson, A-

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Verney, F. W.

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Wilson, Hn. C.H. W. (Hull, W.)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Vivian, Henry

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Wilson, J.W(Worcestersh. N.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

  Wallace, Robert

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Snowdon, P.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Winfrey, R.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Walters, John Tudor

  Wood, T. M' Kinnon

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds, S.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf' d

  Spicer, Albert

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Young, Samuel

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

  Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh)

  Ward, W. Dudley (S'thampton

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wardle, George J.

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Pease.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P.(Stroud)

  Clough, W.

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Ashley, W. W.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W

  Balcarres, Lord

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Keswick, William

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J(CityLond.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

  Dixon-Hart land, Sir Fred Dixon

  Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Levy, Maurice

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Lockwoo,. Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

  Long, Col, Charles W(Evesham

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S)

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fell, Arthur

  Lupton, Arnold

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Forster, Henry William

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Gastlereagh, Viscount

  Haddock, George R.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln).

  Cave, George

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Cavendish, Rt, Hn. Victor C. W.

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Worc.

  Hervey, F.W.F(Bury S. Edm'ds

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  1072

  1073

  Nield, Herbert

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Percy, Earl

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Perks, Robert William

  Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Starkey, John R.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Radford, G. H.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ.

  Younger, George

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Turnour, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Alexander Acland-Hood

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Clause 5—
  Amendment made—
  "In page 4, line 3, by leaving out the words 'take over' and inserting the words 'make an arrangement for the transfer to them, or the use by them, of the schoolhouse of.' "—(Mr. Birrell.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 8, at the end, to add the words 'but nothing in this section shall be
  construed so as to apply the provisions of this Act allowing an appeal to the Board of Education in cases where a local education authority refuse to make an arrangement as respects the use of the schoolhouse of an existing voluntary school.'"—(Mr. Birrell.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 352; Noes, 182. (Division List, No. 166.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Billson, Alfred

  Cleland, J.W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine.

  Clough, W.

  Adkins, W. Ryland

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

  Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Agnew, George William.

  Bolton.T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Boulton, A C. F. (Ramsey)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Alden, Percy

  Brace, William

  Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Branch, James

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Armitage, R.

  Brigg, John

  Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E Grinst'd

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brodie, H. C.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Asquith, Rt. Ha. Herbert Henry

  Brooke, Stopford

  Cowan, W. H.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen

  Crombie, John William

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs)

  Crooks, William

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Cross, Alexander

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  C'rossley, William J.

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

  Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Burt Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Buxton, Rt. Hon Sydney Charles

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cairns, Thomas

  Dickinson.W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

  Beale, W. P.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dodd, W. H.

  Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Duckworth, James

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Duffy, William J.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Farness)

  Bertram, Julius

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otloy)

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Dunne, Major. E. Martin(Walsall

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pollard, Dr.

  Ellis, Bt. Hon. John Edward

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

  Erskine, David C.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lambert, George

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lamont, Norman

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Rainy, A. Holland

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Rees, J. D.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Lever, A Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirra)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Levy, Maurice

  Richards, Thomas W. Monm'th

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Richardson, A.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lough, Thomas

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Gill, A. H.

  Luttreill, Hugh Fownes

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Glover, Thomas

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. Dundee

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Robertson, Sir G. Scctt(Bradf'rd

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Maclean, Donald

  Robinson, S.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  M'Arthur, William

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Grove, Archibald

  M'Crae, George

  Rowlands, J.

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Runciman, Walter

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester)

  Harmsworth, R L(Caithn'ss-sh

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Sears, J. E.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Markham. Arthur Basil

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Harwood, George

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Shackleton, David James

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. (Hawick, B.)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Massie, J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Menzies, Walter

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Mond, A.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.

  Money, L, G. Chiozza

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Snowden, P.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Montgomery, H. H.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen

  Spicer, Albert

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morrell, Philip

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Morse, L. L.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N

  Murray, James

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Myer, Horatio

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Nicholls, George

  Stuart, James (Sutherland)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r

  Summerbell, T.

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nussey, Thomas William

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Jackson, R, S.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Partington, Oswald

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Paul, Herbert

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swanse

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

  Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pearson.W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Tomkinson, James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Perks, Robert William

  Torrance, A. M.

  Kelley, George D.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

  Toulmin, George

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  1076

  1077

  Verney, F. W.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Williamson, A.

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Vivian, Henry

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Wallace, Robert

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

  Walsh, Stephen

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Walters, John Tudor

  White, L'uke (York, E.R.)

  Winfrey, R.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T(Hudd'rsfi'd

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton

  Wiles, Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Wardle, George J.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Pease.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Du Cros, Harvey

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  M'Kean, John

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt Hon. Sir H.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Killop, W.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fell, Arthur

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Balfour, Rt. Hn, A.J.(City Lond.)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Meagher, Michael

  Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry, N.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Gilhooly, James

  Mooney, J. J.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Ginnell, L.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo

  Haddock, George R.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Halpin, J.

  Murnaghan, George

  Boland, John

  Hammond, John

  Murphy, John

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Harrington, Timothy

  Nield, Herbert

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Helmsley, Viscount

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hervey, F.W.F(Bury S. Edm'ds

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Cave, George

  Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

  O'Dowd, John

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hogan, Michael

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Malley, William

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Worc.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H

  O'Mara, James

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col W.

  O'Shee, James John

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Keswick, William

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  Percy, Earl

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Craig, Captain James(Down, E.)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Crean, Eugene

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Reddy, M.

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Redmond John E.(Waterford)

  Delany, William

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R,

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Remnant, James Farquhar son

  Dillon, John

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S

  Roche, Augustine (Cork)

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Doughty, Sir George

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Russell, T. W.

  1078

  1079

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Thomson, W Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E.Howard

  Young, Samuel

  Seddon, J.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Younger, George

  Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Starkey, John R.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Alexander Acland-Hood

  Sullivan, Donal

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) [EXPENSES].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of an additional Annual Grant, not exceeding one million pounds, to be distributed among Local Education Authorities in pursuance of any Act of the present session to make further provision with respect to Education in England and Wales, and of the remuneration and Expenses of the Commissioners appointed under such Act."—(Mr. Lough.)
  Question put forthwith, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 18th June. The Committee proceeded to a Division.
  The Chairman named Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Joseph Pease as Tellers for the Ayes; but, there being no Members willing to act as Tellers for the Noes, he declared the Ayes had it.
  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

  MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL.
  Order for Committee read.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid the hon. Member for Bolton and he had had a consultation, and the hon. Gentleman had an Amendment with which he, unfortunately, was unable to agree. But the hon. Gentleman and he dared say other hon. Gentlemen were prepared to allow the really formal Amendment which was under discussion last night to pass.
  Objection being taken, Committee was, deferred till To-morrow.

  RIGHTS OF WAY BILL.
  Order for Committee read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.

  EAST INDIA (OFFICERS) (EXCHANGE COMPENSATION).
  Address for "Return containing copies, of all the Resolutions issued by the Government of India with regard to the grant of Exchange Compensation allowance to European Officers of the Indian Service."—(Sir Seymour King.)
  And it being after half-past Eleven of the Clock on Wednesday Evening, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at twenty-one minutes after Twelve o'clock.