Sitting of 21 June 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in respect of the following Bill, introduced pursuant to the provisions of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, and which the Chairman of Ways and Means had directed to originate in the House of Lords, they have certified that the Standing Orders have been complied with, viz.:—Buckhaven Methil and Innerleven Burgh Extension Bill.
  Southampton Gas Bill. Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
  Gas Companies (Removal of Sulphur Restrictions) Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  Maryport Harbour Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  Poole Corporation Water Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire Electric Power Bill (by Order); Haslingden Corporation Bill [Lords] (by Order). As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  West Yorkshire Tramways Bill [Lords] (by Order). Read a second time, and committed.
  Water Provisional Order Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
  Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill. Reported, with Amend-
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  ments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
  Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
  St. John's (Westminster) Improvement Bill; Hull and Barnsley and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [Lords]; Hull and Barnsley Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill [Lords]; Trent Navigation Companies Bill [Lords]; Sheffield District Railway Bill [Lords]; Cambrian Railways Bill [Lords]; Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [Lords]. Reported, with an Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Barry Railway Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Rugby Lower School Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment: Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. Bill to be read the third time.
  Crellin's Patents Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table. Bill to be read the third time.
  London Outer Circle Railway Bill. Reported [Preamble not proved]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  They have agreed to Amendments to—National Assurance Company of Ireland and Yorkshire Fire and Life Insurance Company Bill [Lords]. South Lancashire Tramways (Extension of Time) Bill [Lords].
  Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

PETITIONS.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against: From Adderbury; Alwick; Headon; Leicester; Nottingham;

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  Newcastle-on-Tyne; Spennithorne; Stannington; Tuxford; and, Weeley; to lie upon the Table.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
  Petitions against alteration of Law: From Cheetham Hill; Hulme; and, St. Austell; to lie upon the Table.
  INFANT LIFE PROTECTION.
  Petition from York, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  OPEN SPACES BILL.
  Petition from Bermondsey, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  PHARMACY BILL.
  Petition from Newark, against; to lie upon the Table.
  POISONS AND PHARMACY BILL [LORDS].
  Petitions for alteration: From Cambridge; Finsbury; Greenwich (two); Hull; Keswick; Leigh; Liverpool (two); Mid Cumberland; Pudsey (two); South Manchester; Spalding (two); Strand and District (two); Wells; West Bromwich; and, Weston-super-Mare; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, EIC.
  UNEMPLOYED WORKMEN ACT, 1905.
  Copy presented, of Regulations made by the Local Government. Board under the Act as to the Form of Financial Statement of Distress Committees having the powers of a Central Body established under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  FINANCE ACCOUNTS.
  Copy presented, of Finance Accounts of the United Kingdom for the year ended 31st March 1906 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 208.]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Publication of Report of Local Government Board (Scotland).
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland the cause
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  of the delay in issuing to Members the Annual Report of the Local Government Board for Scotland: and will he state when it will be issued.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The printing of the Report is being completed, and I hope it will be in the hands of hon. Members at the beginning of next week.

  Appointments as Postmen reserved for Ex-Telegraph Messengers.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (Wicklow W.): To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the fact that in addition to the 50 per cent. of vacancies for postmen's appointments reserved for ex-naval and military men, they are held as being eligible for a proportion of the remaining 50 per cent., if they have become assistant postmen; and, seeing that this is a breach of the regulation reserving 50 per cent, of these appointments for ex-telegaph messengers and others, will he state what steps he proposes to take.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Baxton.) The hon. Member has been misinformed. An ex-soldier becoming an assistant postman is eligible only for a soldier's vacancy on the postman's class, and nothing is allowed to interfere with the reservation for telegraph messengers of 50 per cent. in full of the vacancies as postmen.

  Pigeon Shooting in Egypt.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign-Affairs if he can state whether the notable who gave the British officers permission to shoot pigeons in the Tantah district of Egypt gave the villagers any intimation that this shooting of tame pigeons would take place.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) The Answer to this Question is the same as that to the hon. Member's Question No. 2 of to-day.†
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the pigeons in the district of Tantah, Egypt, which were shot at by the British officers whilst on the march from Cairo to Alexandria, were tame pigeons, the property of the villagers; and will he state why these officers visited
  … See next Question.

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  this village in the neighbourhood of Tantah for the purpose indicated, seeing that they had no knowledge or habits of the fellaheen.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) I am unable to make any statement as to the facts of the case. They cannot be accurately known until the trial of the accused persons, which will be held in public, has been brought to a conclusion. (This Answer applies also to the hon. Member's Question No. 1 of to-day.) †

  Disturbance by Chinese Coolies at the Nourse Mine.
  MR. MOND: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a riot at the Nourse mine on 16th June, caused by 400 Chinese coolies; and whether he can state what was the cause of the attack of these 400 Chinese coolies on the house of the compound manager.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I have seen a statement in the Press to this effect and will make inquiry.

  Outrages by Chinese Coolies
  MR. MOND: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a meeting at Rossetenville, a suburb of Johannesburg, on the 17th June, to protest against outrages committed by Chinese coolies; and whether the Government will take steps to carry out the recommendation passed at that meeting, that the Labour importation Association should be compelled to compensate the victims of Chinese outrages.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I have seen a statement to this effect in the Press. It does not seem possible to hold the Association, so long as it acts within the law, legally liable for the crimes of individual Chinese.

  South African Commission for the Control of the Chinese.
  MR. MOND: To ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce in Johannesburg on the 15th June, when the President explained that the Chamber refused to appear before the Commission
  † See preceding Question.
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  for the control of the Chinese on the ground that the Commissioners had been appointed by the Chamber of Mines; and whether the Government will take steps so that the Commissioners appointed to such Commissions shall have no connection with the mining industry.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I have seen a press telegram of the nature indicated. The Commission in question was appointed by Sir R. Solomon, the Acting Lieutenant-Governor of the Transvaal, and consisted of the resident magistrate of Pretoria, as chairman, the two principal police officials of the Colony, the superintendent of Foreign labour, the Chinese Consul General, and two gentlemen representing the mines, and the Secretary of State sees no reason to object to its composition in view of the terms of reference.

  Lighting and Dredging of the Thames Estuary.
  MR. J. D. WHITE: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of the increased silting up of the South West Reach of the Swin between the North East Maplin and the South West Middle, the Trinity House will consider the advisability of improving the lighting and buoying of the Barrow Deep so as to afford an alternative north channel suitable at all times for deep-draught vessels, bound to and from the River Thames; and whether steps will be taken to prevent the dumping of dredgings and other material in the Barrow Deep.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I am informed by the Elder Brethren of the Trinity House that the Barrow Deep channel is already buoyed for daylight navigation, and that they have under consideration the question of lighting it so as to make it available for traffic by night. As regards the dumping of dredgings and other material in the Barrow Deep, I may say that this was stopped in October last and that a special area for such deposits has now been provided in the Black Deep.

  Danger to Shipping by Rocks between Ireland's Eye and Howth Harbour.
  MR. CLANCY: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been

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  directed to the danger of fishing vessels caused by the flat rocks in the Sound between Ireland's Eye and Howth Harbour; and whether he will cause the proper authority to place a buoy in the place indicated.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Board of Trade do not possess the power suggested in the latter part of the Question. I have, however, communicated with the Commissioners of Irish Lights, who inform me that they do not consider that the placing of a buoy in the position indicated is a matter for them to deal with.

  Naval Training—Artisan and Artificers Branches.
  MR. J. WILLIAMS BENN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether in view of the statement in the Report of the Douglas Committee as to the disappearance of the boatswain and carpenter, any steps will be taken under the new system to train and utilise existing servants in these branches in some kindred employment.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The statement referred to was a suggestion on the part of the Sub-Committee that the duties of the present artisan branches might be rearranged in the future so as to admit of the carrying out of those duties by the artificer branch. Assuming that this suggestion was approved by the Admiralty, the change would take place gradually, and would not involve the discharge of men from the service. If any action be taken, the question of utilising artisans in a new capacity, for which they might be qualified, would be carefully considered. Of course, in making any radical change, existing rights would receive due consideration.

  Transfer of Postal Clerks from London to Edinburgh and Dublin—Reduction of Salary.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN (Cork, E.): To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that women clerks who are transferred from the General Post Office in London to offices in Dublin or Edinburgh have their maximum salaries reduced by £10 per annum in consequence of such transfer, while no reduction is made in the salaries of men
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  clerks similarly transferred; whether the duties of women clerks in the offices in Dublin and Edinburgh are identical with those of women clerks in London; whether this reduction of salary is not a violation of the condition upon which these clerks obtained their appointment; whether the prospects of promotion of these clerks is not very much lessened in in consequence of being transfered to the post offices in Dublin or Edinburgh; and whether he will consider the question with a view to patting all these women clerks, as far as possible, upon the same scale of salaries as to the women clerks in the General Post Office, London.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I may, perhaps, be allowed to refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave on the 14th instant to a similar Question relating to transfers between London and Dublin asked by the hon. Member for South Belfast. Transfers to Edinburgh are arranged on the same lines as transfers to Dublin.

  Ordance Survey Staff—7th Division (Carlisle).
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the staff of the 7th Division (Carlisle) of the Ordnance Survey is likely to be reduced in the near future; and whether, in the event of such a reduction being found necessary, the men selected for discharge will be drawn from those with less than fifteen years' service.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The 7th Division is at present employed in Ireland on the survey of county Lough, and on the completion of this work in two years time the Division will resume revision work in England. This will involve the removal of all the surveyors from the Division, but I hope that it will be possible to continue the services of these men in other capacities or in other Divisions. In the selection of men for discharge, the cases of men with more than fifteen years' service will be most carefully and sympathetically considered, but there is a certain amount of work on the survey which must be always done by youths.

  Offences under the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act 1893.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will furnish a Return of the complaints coming before that Board under The Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1893, during the last five years, with the names of the persons concerned and a note of the essential points of complaint, for each year separately; also if he will grant a Return of the number of criminal prosecutions which have occurred under this Act during the period, and of the results of each criminal prosecution.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) We could not undertake to furnish a Return of the complaints made to the Board as to the specific cases arising under the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, for the reason that the information given is more or less of a confidential character. The enforcement of the Act, moreover, rests with the local authorities, and it is to those authorities and to the vendors that such complaint would ordinarily be addressed. Information as to the more general representations which we have received as to the working of the Act will be found in the Report and Minutes of Evidence of the recent Departmental Committee. Prosecutions under the Act may be undertaken by county councils without reference to the Board, and we have no information as the number which have taken place. Two applications have been made to the Board for certificates authorising a prosecution under Section 3 of the Act. The certificate was refused in one case and granted in the other, but we were not informed whether proceedings were actually instituted, and, if so, with what result.

  Suggested Issue of Large Scale Ordnance Survey Maps of the United Kingdom.
  MR. G. GREENWOOD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can see his way to instruct the Ordnance Survey Department to issue maps of the United Kingdom on the scale of two inches to the statute mile.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) I am afraid it is not possible for us to
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  adopt the suggestion made by my hon. friend. The preparation of a map on the proposed scale would involve a very considerable cost and would take some years to complete. Perhaps, however, he would confer personally with me on the subject.

  Position of Clerks to Surveyors of Taxes.
  MR. MACVEAGH (Down, S.): To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether in view of the fact that out of 600 clerks to surveyors of taxes, 373 had served permanently in such offices for periods ranging from five years to thirty years and upwards, he can explain upon what grounds the Treasury regard such clerkships as only of a temporary nature; whether he is aware that the surveyors of taxes strongly condemn the present system of clerical hire, and recently presented a petition to the Board of Inland Revenue praying for their clerks' establishment, in the interests of the revenue and the public; and whether taking into account the surveyors' recommendation, the lengthy service of the clerks, and the fact that they are engaged upon work of a confidential nature in connection with the income tax, he will institute an inquiry into the status and treatment of these clerks.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The question of substituting established clerks for the personal clerks employed by the surveyors was considered in connection with the surveyors' memorial last year and also on other occasions. For some years a considerable number of established clerks were employed, but the arrangement was found to be unsatisfactory, and was abandoned in 1893. The present system is preferred, not only as being more economical, but also as more convenient for adaptation of the staff to the requirements of the localities.

  Rateable Value and Representation of Manchester.
  MR. H. J. TENNANT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a Return of the Corporation of the City of Manchester setting forth the rateable value of the various wards, the numbers of limited liability companies in those wards and their rateable value, from which it can be deduced that as

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  much as 45 per cent. of the rateable value is in some cases unrepresented at municipal elections; and whether he can propose any method of altering the system under which representation is so partial and capricious.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have not seen the Return of the Corporation of Manchester referred to in the Question. I have received particulars sent for the purposes of the Return, moved for by my hon. friend, from which it appears that the rateable value of the premises at Manchester, in respect of the occupation of which no persons are entered in the lists of municipal electors, because the hereditaments are occupied by corporations, or joint stock or other companies, amounts to 32 per cent. of the total rateable value of the city. I am not able to promise to introduce the legislation which would be necessary to alter this state of things

  Religious Processions in Eastern Bengal.
  SIR H. COTTON (Nottingham, E.): To ask the Secretary of State of India whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a Harisankirtan party, consisting of twelve men, and constituting a procession of a purely religious character, were arrested by the police on the 28th May for passing through the streets of Muktagacha, in the Mymensingh district of the province of Eastern Bengal and Assam, and for singing religious songs; and whether, looking to the fact that religious processions of this character have been customary in Muktagacha during the past eighteen years, and that they are now interfered with under the recent orders authorising the police to require licences for public processions, he will issue instructions to the Government of India that religious processions shall not be obstructed by the police.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) As I stated in reply to a Question on the 14th June,† the only restrictions on processions, religious or otherwise, now in force in Eastern Bengal are those imposed by the ordinary law. A procession of the kind referred to would in ordinary circumstances call for no action by the police, but the recent rioting between
  † See (4) Debates, clviii., 1130.
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  Hindus and Mahomedans in Mymensingh may have rendered a stricter enforcement of the law necessary.

  Publicity of Indian Courts of Justice.
  SIR H. COTTON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the magistrate of Backergunge, in Eastern Bengal and Assam, is in the habit of disposing of criminal cases in his private room, and occasionally in his own private residence, to which the public are not admitted; and whether, inasmuch at this practice has been condemned as irregular by the High Court, and is prejudicial to the administration of justice, he will address the Government of India with a view to putting a stop to it.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have no information as to the existence of the irregular practices to which the hon. Member refers. I hope that the irregularity, if truly stated in the Question, has been dealt with by the local government.

  Revaluation of Ireland—Methods of Assesing.
  MR. FIELD (Dublin, St. Patrick): To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Government will consider the advisability in any proposed revaluation in Ireland, of previously adopting the system of local assessors to act in conjunction with the Commissioner of Valuation as invariably practised in Great Britain; whether he will explain the difference in the adjusting machinery for taxation purposes existing between the two islands; and whether he will arrange, as a sequence of the Local Government Act, that the methods of assessing and revising assessments shall be similar throughout the three Kingdoms.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The systems of valuation in the two countries are so different that no useful comparison can be made between them, but I may mention that in England the cost of valuation for local taxation purposes falls upon the local authorities. In Ireland the work is done by a Government Department and the cost is defrayed mainly by the Exchequer. In this respect, therefore, the present system is

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  favourable to Ireland, and I doubt whether in these circumstances an assimilation to the practice in England would be generally welcomed.

  Superintendent Registrars and Lists of Deaths.
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that a Privy Council Order in 1899 required superintendent registrars to supply for electoral registration purposes annual lists of persons dying within the union; that another Order, issued last November, fixed the remuneration to superintendent registrars at two pence per name; that another Order was issued last February requiring the registrars of births and deaths to furnish the Returns; that last month another Order was issued revoking all previous Orders and requiring the superintendent registrars to collect the information at their own cost and without remuneration and whether he will direct inquiries to be made with a veiw to ascertaining whether remuneration can be provided, as contemplated by the Order of November.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The facts are substantially as stated in the Question. I understand the amending Order of November 4th, 1905, was passed with the object of imposing the duty in question upon registrars, and of providing remuneration for these officers, but by an oversight the words "superintendent registrar" were inserted instead of the word "registrar," and the Order of February 7th, 1906, was thereupon made with the object of correcting this error. It was subsequently ascertained that no legal power exists for authorising the payment of remuneration for the performance of the duty, and it was therefore found necessary to revoke the Order of February 7th. This was done by the Order of May 18th, 1906, and the outcome of the whole matter is that the performance of the duty, without remuneration, is reimposed upon superintendant registrars as under the original Order of 1899. Further inquiry in the matter is unnecessary. It has been decided definitely that there is no power to authorise payment of remuneration.

  Interference of Lady Guardian with discipline of Londonderry Union.
  MARQUESS OF HAMILTON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the attention of the Local Government Board has been drawn to the interference with the discipline in the Londonderry union workhouse, on May 12th last, by a member of the Board opening the door of the punishment ward without authority, and releasing an inmate who had been placed there a short time previously, by the master of the workhouse for disorderly conduct; and what action the Local Government Board propose taking to prevent a recurrence of such unauthorised interference by guardians.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Local Government Board have ascertained that, on the date named, the master of the Londonderry workhouse sent a female inmate to the refractory ward, and ordered that she should be kept there for seven hours. The woman was, however, liberated, after four and a-half hours' detention, by a lady guardian. The board of guardians subsequently expressed their disapproval of the lady guardian's action, and directed that the master should, in future, lock the ward when occupied, and see that the key is in safe keeping. In these circumstances the Local Government Board do not consider action on their part to be necessary.

  Nelson Beef Company and Army supplies.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the meat contract for the supply to the troops quartered at London, Woolwich, and Windsor, has been placed with Nelson, Morris, and Company; will he say whether this American firm is amongst those whose manufactured imports to this country have been subjected to serious allegations of condemnation; whether this contract has been secured at the lowest price; whether he can arrange that the Army Council will take precautions to insure that the best quality of fresh meat will be supplied; and whether he can state why preference was given to foreign importers to the exclusion and prejudice of native agriculturists.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The meat contract for these stations has

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  been placed with the Morris Beef Company, of the Central Meat Market, London. I have no information as to whether the American branch of this firm is associated with other Chicago firms in the present controversy. The lowest price secured this contract. Inspection is provided for in the contract so as to secure quality. No preference was given to foreign importers, the contract being placed on price.

  Good Conduct Medal for Henry Hulme, late Cheshire Regiment.
  MR. R. PEARCE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Henry Hulme, late quartermaster sergeant Cheshire Regiment, whose discharge is dated December 18th, 1897, and who holds five good conduct medals, and served twenty-one years without an entry in the regimental default sheet for the last eighteen years, has not yet received a good conduct medal, though applied for before discharge, and finally on December 8th 1905, when the captain acting ajdutant, depot Cheshire Regiment, replied that the application was too late and should have been submitted within six months of discharge; and whether, in view of the facts, the delay may be excused and the medal granted.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Under the King's Regulations, recommendations for good conduct medals are to be submitted half-yearly, and to include cases of men discharged within the previous six months. No recommendation has been received in the War Office in connection with Mr. Hulme. If he will apply to the War Office his case shall be investigated.

  Date of Publication of Report of the Ecclesiastical Disorders Commission.
  DR. HAZEL: To ask the Prime Minister if he can give any further information as to the probable date of the issue of the Report of the Royal Commission on Ecclesiastical Disorders; and whether, failing the issue of the Report, he is willing to take steps to expedite the separate issue of the evidence taken by the Commission, so that it may be in the hands of Members before or during the discussion in Committee of Clause 4 of the Education Bill.
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  (Answered by Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman.) I am unable to give any further information as to the date of the issue of the Report of the Royal Commission, nor am I in a position to expedite the publication of the evidence, as my hon. friend suggests.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Militia Officers' Allowances.
    SIR ROBERT HOBART: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the dearth of Militia officers, he will consider the advisability of their travelling expenses to and from their homes, when beyond the confines of the county, to the place of joining being paid.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,): A considerable sum of money would be involved by the grant of this concession, and I am afraid that at the present time no funds are available for the purpose.

    1st Battalion Royal West Kent Regiment—Master Tailor.
    MR. SLOAN (Belfast, S.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that ex-Sergeant Thomas Pressley, who served as master tailor in the 1st Battalion Royal West Kent Regiment, desired to re-engage for twenty-one years, was ordered by Colonel Maunsell to retire, and the fact that Pressley was given an exemplary discharge, he will call for a further report of this case with the view of his reinstatement, or the production of some evidence in accordance with Army regulations of Pressley's inefficiency or misdemeanour.
    MR. HALDANE: As I have already informed the hon. Member, I have had full inquiries made into this case, and I have satisfied myself that the military authorities concerned had good reasons for refusing to allow this man to extend his service. Mr. Pressley was offered permission to re-engage as a sergeant; though a good workman, he was found to be unfitted for the duties of the appointment of master tailor, who is charged with the supervision of the tailoring work of

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    the regiment. I am not prepared to reopen the case.
    MR. SLOAN: Is it not the case that the man did fill the post for four years, and that the only cause of his losing it was that he went out to the Boer War.
    MR. HALDANE: No, he was not reengaged because, in the opinion of those who supervised the work, he was not fitted for the post.

    Ammunition for Volunteers.
    MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Volunteer battalions are supplied with small arms ammunition of mixed date and manufacture, and that such ammunition is variable and makes accurate shooting impossible and whether he will provide that in future all the ammunition supplied to any unit shall be of the same date and source of manufacture.
    MR. HALDANE: It is necessary to use up the ammunition returned from South Africa after the war. The cartridges are unloaded, the cases recapped and reloaded; proof is then taken and issue is only made on satisfactory results as regards shooting. The date of the manufacture is not known. I will consider whether it can be arranged that cartridges from different makers be kept separate.

    Soldiers' and Sailors' Families' Association.
    MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families' Association refuse to admit the widows and daughters of officers, who have risen from the ranks, to the houses for officers' widows and daughters at Wimbledon; and will he say whether the association is supported out of regimental funds.
    MR. HALDANE: The funds of the officers' branch of this association are not supported by regimental subscriptions, and the War Office has no hand in their administration.
    MR. MORTON: But is the statement as to the widows and daughters of
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    officers who have risen from the ranks correct?
    MR. HALDANE: I do not know. I am not responsible for the association. It is a private organisation. We do not contribute anything to it.

    The Duke of Connaught.
    MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state in what capacity the Duke of Connaught is visiting the Scandinavian countries; if he is doing so at the public expense; and will he also say what are the duties of His Majesty's Inspector-General of the Forces.
    MR. HALDANE: His Royal Highness is visiting Sweden to be present at the christening of the grandson of the Crown Prince. I am informed that he is paying any personal expenses incurred while on board the Admiralty yacht. As regards the last part of the Question, my hon. friend will find the duties fully set forth in the Order in Council of 10–8–1904, contained in Cd. 2252 of 1904.

    Meat Rations at Ballykinlar Camp.
    CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in accordance with a War Office order, tinned beef is to be issued as a ration to the Militia brigade at Ballykinlar Camp, county Down, on Friday the 22nd instant; and whether, in view of the recent revelations concerning the canning of meat, he will give instructions that fresh Irish beef or mutton be supplied to those troops in lieu of the ration mentioned.
    MR. HALDANE: Issues of meat, whether fresh or preserved, to the Militia Brigade at Ballykinler Camp are arranged locally, and not by the War Office. Orders have, however, been given by the War Office to suspend issues of American brands of preserved meat in Ireland until the report has been received from the officer sent to America to investigate.

    Treatment of Zulu Rebels.
    MR. JOWETT (Bradford, W.): I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official information showing that native rebels in Natal who have surrendered or been

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    taken prisoners have been sent to work in the Kimberley mines; and, if so, if he proposes to make any representations to the Natal Government on the matter.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday to a similar Question by the Member for North Salford.†
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.): Is it not the fact that some of these political prisoners have been sent to Kimberley, and is it not the practice that all convicts sent to Kimberley are worked in the diamond mines for the benefit of the proprietors?
    MR. CHURCHILL: In answer to my hon. friend, I can only say that I have no reason to believe that any Natal insurgents have been or are likely to be employed in the Kimberley diamond mines; but the opinion which has been made clear in the House in the conversation which took place at Question time yesterday has been brought to the notice of the Secretary of State, and will be considered. I do not wish to make any further statement on the matter, but my hon. friend may be perfectly sure that it will not be overlooked.
    MR. BYLES (Salford, N.): How soon may we again put a Question on the subject of the employment of these men in the Kimberley mines?
    MR. CHURCHILL: Tuesday or Wednesday next week.

    Chinese Crime in South Africa.
    MR. J. WARD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the fact that, in the week ending 17th June, the following list of crimes and results of crimes committed by Chinese were recorded, viz., two hanged for murder, two tried for keeping a disorderly house in which white women resided, one shot dead while attempting to break into a house in the Heidelburg district, robbery of a house in Rossetenville, a suburb of Johannesburg, where the owner and his wife were
    † See (4) Debates, clix., 168.
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    maltreated and threatened; and what action, if any, he proposes to take to prevent such occurrences.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I have read these statements in the Press, and am making inquiry by telegraph.

    The Repatriation Proclamation.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that the Imperial Government is responsible for all charges in connection with payment of expenses to China of any Chinese coolies imported under the Ordinance who are dissatisfied with their engagement, and the confusion which has arisen between the instructions given by the Government and the Chinese translation thereof, the Government will issue a proclamation in plain English of their intentions, and instruct the authorities on the spot to publish the same in the mines, and the translation thereof in Chinese; and also lay the proclamation and Chinese translation upon the Table of the House.
    MR. CHURCHILL: As I told the hon. Member for Bath yesterday ‡, this matter is the subject of inquiry and consideration.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: Is the hon. Gentleman going to give us a copy of this proclamation?
    MR. CHURCHILL: I shall be very glad to send the hon. Gentleman one for his information.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I want to see the Papers on the Table.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I think the proclamation as it was read out by me to the House is to be found in Hansard.§ As to the version posted in the mines, we have consulted a distinguished Chinese scholar, and we shall be able to compare the one with the other in two or three days.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: Is it not the intention of the Government to issue another proclamation on this subject?
    † See (4) Debates, clix., 167.
    § Ses (4) Debates, clvi., 70.
    MR. CHURCHILL: That is a decision which cannot be taken until the two versions have been examined and compared.
    MR. J. WARD: Does not the hon. Gentleman think it would be advisable to draw up a proclamation in English with all the promises and pledges of the Government on this subject, and then have it translated into Chinese?
    MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.): And will the House have an opportunity of discussing this proclamation again?
    MR. CHURCHILL: The matter is under consideration at this moment, but before we are able to announce any decision to the House we must have an opportunity of seeing whether any alterations or additions were made in the process of translating from English into Chinese. If that should be established, I recognise the fact that the question of the proclamation generally will come once again into the area of consideration.
    MR. BOTTOMLEY (Hackney, S.): May I ask the hon. Gentleman who was the Chinese authority who translated this proclamation, and whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Secretary to the Chinese Legation says that he is unable to find any competent authority to translate into Chinese the version of the proclamation which the hon. Gentleman read to this House.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I cannot give the name of the Chinese authority who translated the proclamation, because I do not know it; but if the hon. Member will ask a Question next week, I hope to be able to give him an Answer; I cannot believe it is beyond the power of the Government to get a Chinese translation.

    Swadeshi Movement in Bengal.
    SIR H. COTTON (Nottingham, E.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the order of the Lieutenant-Governor of Eastern Bengal and Assam, directing the readmission of students in that province who had been expelled from school, is limited in its operation to the Dacca and Rungpore districts; to the fact that four students of the Chanchal Sideswari higher English school, in the district
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    of Maldah, were lately expelled for having taken part in a Swadeshi movement, and that their names, together with the names of their fathers, guardians, and of the places of their residence were officially forwarded to all headmasters of Government and aided and unaided schools in the province, with a view to prevent the admission of the boys into any other school; and whether he will issue instructions that the orders for the readmission of students who have been expelled on so-called political considerations shall be extended to these Maldah boys, and be made general in their application to the whole province.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. JOHN MORLEY,): I am not aware of all the facts mentioned in the Question, but I will make immediate inquiry on the subject.

    Massacres of Jews in Russia.
    MR. THORNEI beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the unchecked massacre of Jews at Biolostoc now going on; whether he has observed the execution by hanging of children of tender age by the Russian Government at Riga; whether he has been informed of the systematic persecution of innocent people at Moscow, Kieff, Warsaw, and other large towns; and whether, seeing that this country broke off diplomatic relations with Servia, and constantly remonstrates with Turkey for less serious outrages, he will consider whether the time has come that Great Britain should protest formally against the continuance of such practices by the Russian Government, and break off diplomatic relations until they are put an end to.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,): The Answer is in the negative.
    MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the outbreak of Jewish massacres in Western Russia in which the Russian authorities are implicated; and whether, in consequence, he will reconsider the propriety of sending

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    British warships at the present moment on a friendly official visit to Russian Baltic ports.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: I cannot add anything to the Answer I gave the other day to the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil.†

    Attack on British Officers in Egypt.
    MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to give any further information as to the attack on British officers in Egypt; whether the officers were in uniform or in the execution of any military duty when the affray took place; whether he can give the text of that portion of the Khedivial decree under which the accused are to be sent for trial before the special tribunal; who decides in such cases whether accused are to be tried before the special tribunal or the ordinary courts; and what provision has been made for the defence of the prisoners.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: The officers were in uniform when the affray took place. The text of the sixth Article of the Khedivial decree (translated from the French) is as follows:—"All crimes and misdemeanours committed by natives against soldiers or officers of the British Army shall continue, in principle, to be tried by the native tribunals. They shall only be dealt with by the special tribunal in special cases when the Agent and Consul of Great Britain shall, at the request of the General Commanding the army of occupation, and in agreement with him, so demand of the Minister for Foreign Affairs." Article 4 of the decree gives the accused the right to have an advocate

    Tax Assessment and Collection.
    MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the following Reports of the Board of Inland Revenue, in each of which they condemn the system of assessing and collecting taxes by means of parochial officers; 2nd Report, 1858, pages 24 and 25; 4th Report, 1860, page 23; 5th Report, 1861, page 19; 6th Report, 1862, pages 18 and 19; 8th Report, 1864, page 21;
    † See(4) Debates, clviii., 1366.
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    and 12th Report, 1869, page 29; if he is aware that a Bill was introduced at the instance of the Board in 1863, and that at page 21 of their 8th Report in 1864 they expressed their regret that it was not passed, and stated that by the employment of Government instead of parochial officers they hoped to effect a saving of probably not less than £50,000 a year, besides relieving the taxpayer of the responsibility to make good the defalcations of parochial collectors; and what steps he proposes to take to give effect to the opinions expressed in favour of reform.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fifeshire, E.): No steps are contemplated for giving effect to the opinions referred to, of which the most recent appears to have been expressed nearly forty years ago, and which have no application to the existing state of things.
    MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will say what was the effect of the transfer of certain duties in 1867 from assessment and collection by parochial officers to Government officers; whether he is aware that the number of dog licences issued increased in ten months from 445,000 to 828,000 (11th Report, Board of Inland Revenue, 1867, p. 14), and in ten years to 1,362,000 (21st Report, 1877, p. 21); and is he aware that in creased revenue would follow the transfer of further duties to Government officials from the more accurate assessment and prompt collection of taxes still in the hands of parochial officers.
    MR. ASQUITH: The transfer of duties connected with dog licences in 1867 was a transfer from one set of Government officials to another, and not from parochial officers to Government officers. These is no reason to suppose that increased revenue would result from a change in the present system of collection of taxes.
    MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the cost of the services of clerks to the local tax commissioners and of parochial assessors and collectors of taxes, which twenty years ago was £295,000 a year, is now £329,000; and whether he

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    will take steps to inquire into this expenditure, and to ascertain the annual saving in public expense in employing Government officers that may be effected, seeing that it was estimated by the Board of Inland Revenue in their 8th Report, 1864, page 21, that a saving of £50,000 a year would have resulted from such a change.
    MR. ASQUITH: The present Board of Inland Revenue are not in a position to question the opinions formed and expressed by their predecessors in 1864 in respect of the changes which at that time were under consideration. But, in the circumstances of the present day, the Board are strongly of opinion: (a) that so long as the assessment of income-tax is entrusted to bodies of unpaid Commissioners, it is essential that these Commissioners should be provided with the services of competent clerks, who can advise them in regard to the law of income tax; (b) that the remuneration at present paid to such clerks is not excessive; and (c) that no economy would result from substituting official for parochial collectors of taxes.

    Ejectment Orders.
    MR. O'GRADY (Leeds, E.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the varying decisions given by the stipendiary magistrates and bench of justices in the London area respecting ejectment orders against householders, lodgers, and tenement occupiers, he will issue an order that in future the uniform time of twenty-one days shall be adopted in these matters.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.): I understand there is a difference of opinion on this question, which leads to a difference of practice, but which could be settled only by a judicial decision. I have no power to settle it, nor to issue any order on the subject.
    MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green, S.W.): Will the right hon. Gentleman instruct the metropolitan police that in carrying out these orders, they must not deposit the goods in the street, and so break one law in executing another?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I do not think I have any power on this subject.

    Metropolitan Police Holidays.
    MR. SEAVERNS: I begt o ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there is now a balance from the Police Rate of £700,000 in the hands of the Commissioner of Police; and whether this balance and the improved financial position resulting from the recent quinquennial assessment will receive his attention in his consideration of the possibility of granting to the members of the Metropolitan Police Force one day's rest in seven.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I agree that it is essential to consider the financial position of the Metropolitan Police Fund in connection with the subject mentioned in the question, but the result of that consideration is unfortunately not what the hon. Member desires. On March 31st last, when the half-yearly receipts from the parishes had just come in, there was a net balance of £500,000 to credit of the Metropolitan Police and Police Pension Funds; but the balance in hand had fallen on Monday last to £152,921; and this amount, together with any receipts which may become available in the interval, is insufficient to meet the expense of the Metropolitan Police Service for the next eight weeks, that is, until August 10th, when the next Rate Warrants become payable. It will be necessary during this period to borrow temporarily from the Bank of England. Further, the increased income of the fund for the current financial year resulting from the growth of the assessable value of the Metropolitan Police District, is estimated at £55,600 while the increased charge for the pay of the force resulting from the much needed augmentations which have been recently sanctioned amounts to £56,000.

    Alien Immigrants.
    MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, seeing that it is impossible to deport aliens in some cases where orders have been made for their expulsion, owing to the difficulty in establishing their nationality, he will consider the advisability of making want of nationality a ground for refusing their admission to this country.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am not prepared to propose the amendment of the Aliens Act, which would be necessary to carry out this suggestion.

    Workshops as Sleeping Apartments.
    MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any official information showing that the number of domestic workshops in the clothing trade used as sleeping apartments is increasing; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of using the powers conferred by Section 3 of the Factory Act, 1901, for the purpose of substantially increasing the cubic space required in such places.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am afraid I have no official information on this subject, nor should I have any power to deal with the matter under Sub section 3 of Section 3 of the Factory Act, as domestic workshops are expressly excluded from the operation of that provision. I may point out, however, that any house or part of a house so overcrowded as to be injurious to the health of the inmates constitutes a nuisance under the Public Health Act, with which the local authority have full power to deal.

    Aliens in the East End of London.
    MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, now the Aliens Act has been in operation for nearly six months, he proposes to again revise the regulations framed under it, and make them more effective for the purpose of excluding more of those who compete with the workers in the East End of London, and to benefit such aliens as may still be allowed to come in.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I cannot say more than that I shall continue to watch carefully the working of the Aliens Act.

    Women's Suffrage Disturbance.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at Marylebone Police Court this morning, when Miss Theresa Billington was fined £10, or two months, on a charge of assaulting the police; whether the alleged
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    assault was only committed this morning, and, as a consequence, the accused was unable to make provision for being legally represented; whether the sentence is not extreme; and whether he will stay the sentence till he has made an inquiry, in consideration of all the circumstances involved.
    MR. TREVELYAN (Yorkshire, W.R.,): On the same subject, may I ask whether my right hon. friend is aware that up to as late as this morning the Metropolitan Police had been unable to deal with the riotous behaviour of certain women in Cavendish Square; whether he is aware that this method of trying to promote the cause of women's suffrage meets with the deepest and most outspoken disapproval of the mass of the advocates of that reform, both women and men; and whether he is satisfied that the measures now taken by the Metropolitan Police are sufficient to preserve order?
    MR. KEIR HAEDIE: I desire to ask whether it is in order for an hon. Member to bring a charge of riotous proceedings against persons who are not present to defend themselves.
    MR. SPEAKER: I did not catch the hon. Member's first Question; the second seemed to be out of order, and the third seemed to be in order.
    MR. GLADSTONE: In answer to the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil, I received his letter only five minutes ago, and I have therefore no information to enable me to answer his Question. I therefore suggest that he should put it down for Monday. In regard to the Question of my hon. friend, my attention has been called to the circumstances of this case. I am not quite sure how much of the Question is in order. All I can do now is to say that I am informed that the police did take proceedings this morning against certain women, and I trust there will be no renewal of the disturbance.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: In view of the fact that this lady has been sent to prison, will not the right hon. Gentleman cause inquiries to be made, so as to be able to reply to a Question which I shall put to him to-night on the Motion for the

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    Adjournment? The matter is one of urgency. Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider two months' imprisonment a most excessive sentence for such a trivial offence?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I have no power at all to interfere with any judicial decision, except when I am of opinion that the prerogative of mercy should be used. I cannot interfere as the hon. Member suggests, and I can hold out no hope that I shall be able to answer the hon. Member's Question on the Adjournment.
    MR. KEIR HAEDIE: Inasmuch as the alleged offence took place at ten o'clock this morning, and the trial between eleven and twelve, so that the accused person had no opportunity of preparing a defence, will the light hon. Gentleman say whether such procedure is customary in the police courts?
    MR. GLADSTONE: It is customary in cases brought before the London police-courts summarily, where the magistrate considers they ought to be dealt with summarily.

    Scathwaite Waterworks Accident.
    MR. J. WARD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to an accident at the new waterworks, Scathwaite Tarn, near Barrow, on May 21st from an explosion, killing two workmen and seriously injuring three others; whether his Department were officially represented at the inquest; and, if so, what Report, if any, has been received upon the subject; and whether, in view of the frequency of these explosions upon public works and the injury caused by them, he will consider the advisability of framing legislation to regulate the use of explosives upon such works.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I beg to answer this question on behalf of my right hon. friend. The accident referred to was reported to the Inspector of Mines and the inquest was attended by the assistant inspector. I have received a Report from H.M. Inspector of Explosives from which it appears that the explosion was caused by boring into an unexplored
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    portion of a previous charge, a not uncommon cause of accident, attributable, I am sorry to say, in many cases to personal carelessness. The use of explosives in mines and quarries is already regulated. The question of extending protective provisions to railway workings and other unregulated places shall receive my consideration.

    Patent Specifications.
    MR. J. D. WHITE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statement made on page 8 of the Annual Report of the Patent Office for 1905 that, by consulting the abridgments of British patent specifications, an inventor is now enabled to make a complete fireside search for all inventions prior to 1901 which might invalidate his own; and whether he will consider the advisability of qualifying this statement, in view of the fact that such invalidating may result from anticipation in any of the foreign specifications to which the public has access at the Patent Office Library as well as in many other ways which are outside' the scope of the abridgments.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,): The inventions dealt, with in the part of the Report in which the passage in question occurs are inventions patented in this country, and I think that any one reading the passage together with its context would understand it to refer solely to inventions protected by British patents. Read in this sense, the passage is correct as it stands.

    Indian Mail Service.
    MR. LAIDLAW (Renfrewshire, E.): I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if, in view of the fact that under present arrangements, delays frequently take place in the arrival of the Indian mails in this country, through much time being lost between Port Said and Brindisi, he will in the next contract, whilst imposing a penalty for delay beyond contract time, offer a reward for earlier delivery, so that it may be to the interest of the steamship company to make good time rather than to slow down in order to save coal; and also whether he will in the new contract

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    of next year stipulate for an accelerated mail service between Bombay and Brindisi so as to give delivery in London early on Friday, in order that urgent correspondence may be answered on the same day.
    THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): I do not think it would be advisable to offer premiums for arrivals in advance of the time fixed by the mail contract, since it is more important to obtain a regular service at a high rate of speed than to encourage special rapidity on particular voyages, with resulting irregularity in the time of arrival. Future arrangements for the Indian Mail service will depend to a large extent on the replies to the invitations to tender issued not long ago; and I am not now prepared to commit myself in any way as to the duration of the transit.

    Register of Teachers.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I beg to ask the President of Education what is the total number of names now entered on Column B. of the of the Register of Teachers; and how many of these have been entered since September 30th, 1905.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH, Islington, W.): The total number of names registered in Column B. up to to-day is:—Under the permanent clauses of the Regulations 264; under the temporary clauses of the Regulations, 11,028; Total 11,292. Of these the number registered since September 30th is:—Under the permanent clauses of the Regulations, 59; under the temporary clauses of the Regulations, 1,244; Total 1,303.

    Women on Education Authorities.
    MR. LEIF JONES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he proposes to introduce into the Education Bill Amendments which shall restore to women the right to be elected on education authorities, of which they were deprived by the Education Act of 1902.
    MR. LOUGH: The Board of Education are in full sympathy with the hon.
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    Member in desiring to see women given a responsible position in the direction of public education. Their exclusion from the present local education authorities (except as possibly co-opted members on their education committees) is one of the results of the last Government's educational legislation which is, I believe, very widely deplored. But it is one which cannot be remedied in an Education Bill, since the remedy is only to be achieved by a fundamental alteration of all our long-standing and numerous Local Government laws. This is a matter which is not within the province of the Board of Education.
    MR. LEIF JONES: Will the hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of establishing directly elected ad hoc authorities on which women would be eligible for election on the same terms and by the same electors as men?
    MR. LOUGH: That would require a great alteration in the present arrangements.

    Wages on Government Contracts.
    MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether representations have been made to him respecting the conditions of employment in the wood working department of Messrs. Waygood and Company, London, contractors to His Majesty's Government, and who have recently erected lifts for the new War Office and other Government buildings; whether the representations prove that such conditions preclude members of the cabinet makers and joiners' trade unions from accepting employment from the firm in question; and, if so, what action he intends taking in the matter?
    THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,): The facts referred to by the hon. Member have been brought to my notice. I have made an opportunity of bringing the representatives of the firm and the trade union together in conference. I have made representations to Messrs. Waygood which I hope may produce a solution of the difficulties which I trust will be of advantage to all those concerned.

    The Ventilation of the House
    During Questions,
    MR. DILLONsaid he did not know whether the First Commissioner of Works was aware of the presence of sewer gas in the House. The same thing occurred yesterday. The air was in a poisonous state. Could nothing be done to purify it? He believed that on a previous occasion, when the same thing occurred, a short adjournment was moved and carried for the purpose of purifying the atmosphere.
    MR. HARCOURT: I can tell the hon. Member what has happened. Steam tugs sometimes puss near the Terrace, where the intake of air is, and it occasionally happens that a barge laden with manure passes, and the impure air is taken in. I hope that in a few minutes the trouble will be removed.
    MR. DILLONlater asked the First Commissioner of Works if he could now make a statement with regard to the unpleasant incident in connection with ventilation to which his attention had been drawn.
    MR. HARCOURT: Yes, air. I went down to the Terrace at once, and was able to trace the offender. It was a barge of gas liquor being taken down the river for the disposal of the contents in the sea. The same barge passed down at the same time yesterday, and gave rise to a similar complaint. I will endeavour to make arrangements with the gas company to adopt some other hour.

    Morningside Asylum.
    MR. STEWART: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he will now make further inquiry into the circumstances attending the escape and recapture of the lunatic Patan, and his attack on Ex-Bailie Mitchell, at Greenock, on May 18th, in view of the unsatisfactory statements of the Morningside Asylum authorities, which traverse the explicit declarations of Superintendent Christie, Sergeant Cunningham, and Constables M'Aulay and Cameron, of the Greenock police, to the effect that, on his arrest, Patan was wearing institution clothing; and if, as stated by the Mourningside Asylum officials,
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    they were ignorant of the fact that the lunatic Paton was in correspondence with Captain Angus, Mr. Mitchell, and other prominent Greenock citizens, whether he will inquire into the neglect on the part, of the asylum authorities in allowing; dangerous lunatics to correspond with the outside world without the censorship, supervision, or even knowledge of the asylum officials.
    THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,): I have made further inquiries, and am informed that Paton was wearing institution clothing when he escaped and when he was brought back. No letters from him to Captain Angus, Mr. Mitchell, or other Greenock citizens were seen by any asylum official or known to have been sent from the asylum. It is quite impossible to prevent patients who are so far sensible and acute in mind, from getting letters posted in a modern asylum. About 300 visitors come every week to see their relatives, and so letters are frequently sent out without the knowledge of the authorities. Paton was not put in admission papers as a "dangerous lunatic," and had never assulted anyone at the asylum. Recently he was a good deal better mentally in some respects.
    MR. STEWART: Will the right hon. Gentleman censure the authorities, of the asylum for having put him in possession of information which was, contrary to the facts?
    MR. SINCLAIR: I will compare the two Answers, and if there is ground for censure, there shall be censure. I think, however, there was a misunderstanding; about the description of the clothing. I shall be glad to confer with the hon. Member.

    Scottish Teachers' Pensions.
    MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether, pending the Amendment of the. Teachers Superannuation Act, he will allocate a part of the money which falls to the Scottish Education Department as the equivalent of grants made to England, to supplement the pensions of those teachers, who have been retired since the introduction of the Superannuation Act.
    MR. SINCLAIR: In view of the fact that in the Teachers Superannuation Act, Parliament has seen fit to prescribe specifically the conditions and amounts of pensions to teachers, it would not be proper to apply public monies to this purpose except in terms of the Act dealing with the subject.

    In reply to Mr. Cathcart Wason,
    MR. SINCLAIRsaid the Department in this matter were acting on precedent. There was no real method of dealing with it except by legislation.
    MR. CATHCART WASOX: That is exactly what we are asking for.

    Irish Land Purchase—Judicial Agreements.
    MR. GINNELL (Westmeath, N.)had given notice of the following Question, the answering of which was postponed: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that some landlords are, for the purpose of obtaining public money under the Land Act of 1903, by means of agreements called judicial, but never approved by any Court, eluding inspection and selling within the zones of that Act holdings to which the Land Acts, used legitimately, do not apply; and, seeing that embarrassed tenants will not voluntarily expose this practice, will the Estates Commissioners ascertain the date of such an agreement in every case, disallow all signed since 1902, and have the holdings inspected as non-judicial.
    MR. KILBRIDE (Kildare, S): When inspectors inspect these estates, is their attention directed to the necessity of ascertaining whether or not the tenants are in arrear with their rents, and whether they are free agents, or acting under duress?
    MR. BRYCE: If the hon. Member will look at the rules he will see what the instructions are on this point.

    Barrow (Fenit) Tenants Grievances.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL (Kerry, W.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that injury is done at Bar row, Fenit, to the houses and lands of purchased tenants by drifting sand;
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    whether, if nothing can be done to protect these tenants, they will still be compelled to pay the annuities for their holdings, which are considerably reduced in value; and whether another independent engineer will be sent to report on the matter.
    MR. BRYCE: It appears to be the fact that a certain amount of injury has been caused by drifting sand to the holdings of two or three tenants at Barrow who have purchased under the Land Acts, but, as I informed the hon. Member on Thursday last,† there are no funds at the disposal of the Government which could properly be applied to abating the evil. The case appears to be one in which the tenant purchasers themselves should endeavour to devise a remedy. I have no objection, however, to ask the Board of Works if they could have the place examined by their engineer, with the object of assisting the tenants with advice, but it should be clearly understood that no other assistance may be counted upon. The Land Commission consider that they are legally bound to continue collecting the annuities.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: As a considerable area of land has been covered by sand, cannot some reduction be made in the annuity?
    MR. BRYCE: That is a question for the Land Commissioners to determine. I do not think much land is covered by sand.

    Loans for Artisans' Dwellings.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that urban authorities who want to borrow money for the building of aritsans' dwellings have to pay interest at the rate of 4 per cent. for forty years, and 4¼ for fifty years, exclusive of sinking fund, with the result that it is impossible for urban authorities in Ireland, without overburdening the rates, to effect any large improvement in the housing accommodation for the artisan and working classes; and whether, seeing that while land has been relieved of a portion of its local taxation under the Act of 1898, the whole of the landlords' share, no relief
    † See (4) Debates, clviii., 1157.

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    has been given in towns, and in view of the rates paid in Irish towns, the need for better and cheaper housing accommodation, steps will be taken to enable urban authorities to borrow money for housing at the same rate as it is proposed to be loaned for the building of agricultural labourers' cottages.
    MR. BRYCE: I understand that the rates now charged for loans to local bodies are such as are necessary to keep the local Loans Fund self supporting, and these rates have not been found so high as to deter local bodies from embarking on extensive schemes for new artisans' dwellings. I am informed that the Board of Works are still making loans for the purpose both to local authorities and private companies, and although the Board impose a limit on the rents which may be charged for the houses, they are aware that the schemes promoted by the latter class have proved remunerative. I have already indicated that it is the intention of the Government at a convenient opportunity to consider whether any Amendments of the law relating to the housing of the working classes in the towns of Ireland may be necessary. I cannot at present, as I have already told other hon. Members, make any more definite statement on the subject.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Would it not be possible by a Departmental arrangement to reduce the rate of interest to 3 per cent.
    MR. BEYCE: I could not answer that Question without first communicating with the Board of Works and the Treasury.

    Agricultural and Technical Schemes.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland will the Return of Local Contributions to Agricultural and Technical Schemes be available for hon. Members before the Vote is taken for the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction.
    MR. BRYCE: The distribution of copies of the Return in question is not a matter for which I am responsible, but I have ascertained from the Department concerned that copies will be distributed in the course of the day.

    Untenanted Lands.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland to state by whom is the material for the Return of Untenanted Land being collected; what precautions are taken to make the Return full and accurate, and especially to verify an owner's assertion that any particular land is demesne or is tenanted, when prima facie it is neither; and can he now fix the date at which the Return will be ready.
    MR. BRYCE: The Return in question is being prepared by the Commissioner of Valuation from the valuation lists for the present year, in which the area and valuation of every agricultural holding in Ireland is set out. The Commissioner informs me that every care is being taken to make the return accurate and complete, and he anticipates that it will he finished by the end of the present month.

    Tinned Meats in Irish Public Institutions.
    MR. HALPIN (Clare, W.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, considering the facts that have come to light regarding imported tinned meats, and the danger attaching to the use of the same, he will give instructions to all the public institutions under his control to discontinue the use of the said meats, which is one of the chief causes of the abnormal death rate from consumption in the British Isles and the spreading of diseases unknown before the establishment of the foreign tinned meat trade.
    MR. BRYCE: Without offering an opinion upon the point raised in the concluding part of the Question, I may inform the hon. Member that tinned meats are not used in Irish prisons. The management of district lunatic asylums is vested in committees of the county councils, and I am informed that tinned meats do not appear in any of the fixed dietary scales of these institutions. As regards workhouses, the Local Government Board are of opinion that boards of guardians in Ireland may safely be relied upon to take proper precautions as to the use of tinned meats, but, as a matter of fact, this class of food is not used to any appreciable extent in Irish workhouses.
    MR. HALPIN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman that if tinned meats are to be used in the public institutions under his control he will give instructions to have the pure unadulterated tinned meats of Shaw and Denny, of Limerick, advertised for by these institutions? Then the poor inmates could be certain that no human flesh would be mixed up with their food. [Laughter.]
    MR. BRYCE: I think I have informed the hon. Member that I did not think tinned meats were being used, at any rate to any extent, in the institutions to which he alludes, nor do I believe to any considerable extent in the institutions under the local authorities.

    Drumtullagh National School.
    MR. SLOAN (Belfast, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in 1905 a site was secured for a teachers' residence in connection with Drumtullagh national school, county Antrim, that the manager of the school applied to the Board of Works for a loan to erect the residence, that the application was accepted on the conditions that the vesting order be deposited with the Board, which is impossible until the estate from which the site has been granted is sold; and whether, in view of the fact that years may elapse before the estate will be sold, and that the Board of Works have accepted sureties for the loan, he will order it to be granted forthwith.
    MR. BRYCE: This Question should be addressed to my hon. friend the Secretary to the Treasury, who answers for the Board of Works.

    Manchester Estate Evicted Tenant.
    MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Collen, who purchased by auction an evicted holding on the Manchester estate, on March 25th, 1904, communicated to the Estates Commissioners his willingness to surrender the holding with the view of having the evicted tenant reinstated; and whether, in view of the fact that eighteen months have elapsed since the Commissioners promised to send their inspector to examine the farm, and that they have not yet done so, he can explain the cause of such delay.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners have been informed by Mr. Collen that he is willing that Samuel Bainey, the evicted tenant referred to, should be restored. Proceedings for the sale of the estate upon which the holding is situate are before the Commissioners, but the turn of the estate for inspection has not yet come. When the estate is being inspected, the Commissioners will have the holding inspected and reported on.
    MR. SLOAN: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say the time has not come for inspecting this particular estate?
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners are tremendously overworked, and they are obliged to take the estates in a certain order; if they departed from that it would be unfair to the other applicants. They will deal with this case directly they can.

    Road Accommodation at Boyle.
    MR. O'DOWD (Sligo, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the district of Chasefield, situate near Kilfree Junction, Boyle, forms a portion of the De Frene, county Sligo, estate, purchased some time ago by the Congested Districts Board, and that the poor inhabitants of this congested district are in a deplorable condition owing to want of road accommodation; whether he is aware that the Board's engineer, Mr. Dodd, visited the place, and, seeing the urgency of the case, had a road opened and work started on August 4th, 1905, which work was, ten days after, abruptly abandoned and never since resumed, notwithstanding representations since made to the Board; and, if so, will he state why the operations were discontinued, and when work will be resumed on this road.
    MR. BRYCE: The Congested Districts Board were unable to proceed with the proposed road on the De Freyne estate in consequence of objection made by a tenant through whose holding the road was to pass. When the estate becomes vested in the Board, they will have power to overrule the tenant's objection and proceed with the work.

    Earl Fitzwilliam's Tenants.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (Wicklow, W.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is a fact that any and, if so, how many of the tenants who have signed agreements to purchase their holdings from Earl Fitzwilliam have been legally proceeded against because of their failure to pay the interest due on the amount of the purchase money; and, if so, whether the Estates Commissioners have made any inquiry into the solvency of those tenants and into their ability to pay the instalments when the sales to them are completed.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that out of 655 tenant purchasers on the estate referred to who were liable to interest on the purchase money to November 1st last, all have paid save four, against whom proceedings are pending. The Commissioners make due inquiries into the security for the advances and into the means of the tenants in all cases which do not come within the zones.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state how many of the 1,055 tenants who have agreed to purchase their holdings from Earl Fitzwilliam were first-term tenants, how many were second term tenants, how many were non-judicial tenants, and how many of them were non-judicial tenants on January 1st, 1903; and whether any, and, if so, how many signed agreements out of court to become judicial tenants within twelve months previous to the date upon which they signed agreements to purchase.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform mo that of the 1,055 cases mentioned 189 were cases in which judicial rents were fixed or agreed to prior to August, 1896, 754 were fixed or agreed to since August, 1896, and 112 were cases of non-judicial rents. The Commissioners could not, without a detailed examination of the 1,055 agreements, state how many of the tenants were non-judicial on January 1st, 1903, or how many signed agreements out of court to become judicial tenants within twelve months previous to the dates upon which they signed agreements to
    380
    purchase. Such an examination would involve a great amount of labour and much of the time of the staff to the delay of other current business, and the Commissioners do not consider that any result commensurate with the labour involved would be attained.

    Massy Estate, Macroom.
    MR. SHEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his. attention has been drawn to the circumstances which exist on the Massy Estate, Macroom, and which have so far hindered and hampered all efforts at negotiation for purchase on behalf of the tenants; is he aware that Mr. W. H. H. Massy, who had a life interest in the estate, parted with it under deed, dated January 9th, 1899, to his brother, Mr. J. B. W. Massy, and that he now receives an annual income from the latter of £550, to be increased on the death of an annuitant, and that there is a dispute between the brothers as to who should receive the bonus in the event of a sale taking place; and will he state whether this is a case in which the Estates Commissioners could exercise their intervention under the recent regulations of the Lord-Lieutenant with a view to arranging the difficulty which exists between the owners.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they are not aware of the matters alleged in the Question, nor have they been approached on behalf of the tenants of the estate referred to. It would appear from the Question that the difficulties in arranging a sale are caused by differences between the owners themselves, and not by differences between the owners and the tenants, and it does not appear to the Commissioners that they can take any steps in the matter at present.

    Largydonnell Land Case
    MR. DOLAN (Leitrim, N.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have yet reached a decision regarding the holding of Patrick McGlone, of Aghanlish, Largydonnell, county Leitrim, which they compelled him to sell to them at a price which is 38½ years purchase of the rent fixed by the county court judge.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that the reply is in the negative. They are considering the legal questions involved. They wish it to be added that the statement in the Question does not, in their view, correctly describe the position.

    Labourers Acts Loans.
    MR. FFRENCH (Wexford, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieuutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Wexford County Council at their last meeting passed a resolution suggesting that the rate of interest on existing loans should be revised, so that unions which loyally worked the Labourers' Acts in the past would repay the instalments on these loans on the same terms as those provided by the new Bill; and whether he can hold out any hope that he will be able to see his way to amend the Labourers' Bill in the direction indicated in the Resolution.
    MR. BRYCE: I am afraid that it would not be possible to adopt the suggestion contained in the Resolution referred to, but the matter is one for the Treasury rather than for me, and if the hon. Member wishes to put any further questions on the subject, I think he had better address one of the Ministers representing that Department.

    Inspectors of Lunatics' Reports.
    MR. CLANCY (Dublin County, N.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when the Report of the inspectors of lunatics will be laid upon the Table; and whether he is aware that latterly such Reports have not been issued until after the rising of Parliament, so that there is no opportunity of referring to them when the Estimates are under discussion.
    MR. BRYCE: The Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums inform me that they hope to present their Report in the course of the coming month. The delay which has occurred in preparing the Report in recent years has been due to the difficulty of obtaining the necessary financial Returns from the various asylums. The inspectors have now made arrangements under which the financial Returns to be included in their annual Reports will relate to an earlier period than heretofore, and they anticipate that they will
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    be able to present their Reports without delay in future.

    Killavallen (Cork) Schoolhouse.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM (Cork County, N.E.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain the cause of delay, on the part of the Commissioners of National Education, Ireland, in taking into consideration applications for building grants for the erection of schoolhouses, having regard to the fact that many old schoolhouses are in a dilapidated condition, and have boen condemned by the inspectors of the board; whether his attention has been called to the condition of the schoolhouse at Killavallen, county Cork, concerning which an inspector reported to the Board of National Education, six years ago, that the building was positively dangerous, and to the fact that although the manager, at the urgent request of the Board, has provided a site for a double schoolhouse, and made an application in due course for a building grant, he has been recently informed that the Board are not in a position to further consider his application; and whether, seeing that the state of this schoolhouse is such that it will require to be closed on the approach of winter, he will represent to the Board of National Education the necessity of making a grant in this case so that a new schoolhouse may be provided without further delay.
    MR. BRYCE: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that they are aware of the unsatisfactory condition, of the Killavullen schoolhouse, and that the site provided by the manager for a. new building has been approved by the Commissioners and the Board of Works. The general question of building grants has not yet been definitely settled, but the Irish Government are prepared to recommend urgent cases, such as that of Killavullen, to the favourable consideration of the Treasury, without waiting for a settlement of the general question; and I will communicate further with the Commissioners on the subject with the object of arranging that this case may at once, be dealt with.
    MR. DILLON: Arising out of that answer may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in his opinion this most vital question will ever be settled. It has

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    now been the subject of communication between the Board of Education and the Treasury for more than six years, and although we have been repeatedly promised a settlement, it has not yet been reached.
    MR. BRYCEsaid he had given great attention to this matter for a very long time, and very substantial progress had been made towards a settlement.

    Cornamona School Teacher.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether a principal teacher in the, Cornamona national school, county Galway. is on the records of the Commissioners of National Education as Michael O'Malley, son of Thomas O'Malley and Catherine O'Malley, of Kilmilkin, although the same individual was formerly two years monitor of the Leehane national school, at which time his official description was Michael John O'Malley, the son of Michael O'Malley and Sarah Joyce; and, if so, whether the Commissioners will institute an inquiry into the genuineness or otherwise of the birth certificate which was submitted by the said Michael O'Malley when he made application for the position of principal teacher.
    MR. BRYCE: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that the recorded name of the teacher of Cornamona boys' national school is Michael O'Malley, and that they have recently received a complaint to the effect that this teacher produced at the time of his app intment a certificate of age which did not relate to himself. The matter is at resent under inquiry by the senior inspector of the district.

    Labourers' Cottage Schemes.
    MR. SHEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that there are some rural districts in Ireland, as for instance the Cork rural district, in which the councils have perfected and obtained the sanction of the Local Government Board to new schemes of labourers' cottages; and whether, in the interests of the labourers whose representations have passed the necessary inquiries and with a view to preventing a postponement of the
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    building operations until the issue of a loan is authorised when the Labourers Bill becomes law, he will say whether he will include some provision in the Bill which would enable loans to be issued to councils in the position mentioned immediately on the Royal Assent being given to the measure.
    MR. BRYCE: I am considering the question of the date upon which different parts of the Bill can be brought into operation, but I see considerable difficulty in adopting the hon. Member's suggestion, I upon which, moreover, the Treasury I would have to be consulted.

    Irish Trade Statistics.
    MR. BOLAND (Kerry, S.): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statement on page 5 of the recent Consular Report from Chicago with reference to the system of consular invoices in force in the United States; and whether he will consider the advisability of adopting a similar system by way of experiment in Ireland, in view of the importance of the collection of reliable statistics of imports and exports, with a view to its permanent adoption in the United Kingdom should the system prove satisfactory.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I have seen the statement referred to. In order to carry out the experiment suggested by the hon. Member, it would be necessary that Foreign Consuls in Ireland and British Consuls abroad should be required to issue Consular Invoices for goods exported from or to Ireland. His Majesty's Government have no power to give directions of this kind to Foreign Consuls, and were it otherwise, I have great doubt if the introduction of a universal requirement of this kind would be popular among Irish exporters. As regards British Consuls abroad, I would point out that the principal object of Consular Invoices is not to shew ultimate destination but to ensure that goods are not undervalued for the purpose of assessment of ad valorem import duties. The introduction of the system therefore in respect of goods exported from places abroad to Ireland would not attain the object which the hon. Member has in view.

    Rosslare Harbour.
    MR. FFRENCH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, formerly, there were large sounding bnoys placed at the approaches of Rosslare Harbour, and that those have been removed and replaced by much smaller ones that can scarcely be seen by navigators; and whether, seeing that within the past fortnight a steam yacht went aground on the banks owing to the captain not seeing the buoys, he will take steps to have the large buoys restored.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I understand from the Commissioner of Irish Lights that one automatic whistling lighted buoy was placed on the South Sheer, Rosslare, on April 20th, 1900, as an experiment. It was found impossible to keep this constantly alight, and the Commissioners removed it on March 1st, 1901, but without replacing it by any other seamark. I have already explained the objection to placing gas-lighted buoys here at the expense of the General Lighthouse Fund.
    MR. FFRENCH: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the buoys were removed and smaller buoys put in their place.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I have already given the hon. Member the explanation furnished to me by the Irish Lights Board—that it was found impossible to keep this constantly alight.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E): Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the seriousness of the matter, and that ships are frequently wrecked here, and cannot he have something done to have buoys put there?
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The matter was seriously considered by the Irish Lights Board, Trinity House, and the Shipping Committee. Shipowners objected seriously to lights being placed there, and I should think that they were the people primarily interested, but they resisted very strongly. They resisted putting lights there at the expense of the Lighthouse Fund, and after going into the matter very carefully, it was considered that they had made good their case.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the Commission about to be appointed to the lighting of this particular harbour?
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I do not know that I can do that, but it will, of course, be open to the hon. Member to bring any evidence he may wish before the Commission. Indeed, I think it is one of the things that they would have to consider.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that he hoped his hon. friend (Mr. Ffrench) would do that.

    Killucan Postmaster.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that, the postmaster recently removed from Killucan was addicted to distributing proselytising tracts and leaflets; that a local cycling club was accustomed to follow him cleansing the public roads of this matter, and that his assistant and disciple is now a candidate for the vacant postmastership; and will he take care, before sanctioning a new appointment, that it shall not involve a further infliction of this character upon the people of the district.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Careful inquiry at Killucan has produced no clear evidence of the truth of the statements that the late postmaster was addicted to distributing proselytising tracts and leaflets, or that any persons were accustomed to follow him about with the object indicated. In selecting an officer for the vacant appointment I shall of course consider the fitness in all respects of the candidates who apply.

    The Crofters Acts.
    MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he can now say when the Bill to amend the Crofters Acts will be introduced.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): I am afraid that I cannot have a definite date for the introduction of the Crofters' Bill.

    Bodmin Election Petition.
    SIR G. KEKEWICH: I beg to ask the prime Minister whether he will cause the notes of evidence and the text of the judgment of Mr. Justice Grantham and Mr. Justice Lawrance, in the case of the Bodmin Election petition, when laid upon the Table of the House, to be printed, and circulated to Members, so that they may have an opportunity of comparing the evidence and the judgments in the case of the Yarmouth and Bodmin Election petitions.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The report of the Bodmin Election petition has not yet been announced to the House by Mr. Speaker. I shall be quite willing if it is the desire of the House that the evidence and judgment in the trial of the petition should be printed and circulated among Members so soon as the Report has been received.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
MR. A. J. BALFOURasked the Prime Minister when the amendments to Clause 4 of the Education Bill proposed by the Government would be circulated He desired to know what would be the distribution of Supply in the days yet remaining. That question was justified by the fact that the Government had intimated that they would restrict Supply this year to twenty days, which was the minimum, and not give the three extra days which had commonly, but not always, been given. He also expressed a hope that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to make arrangements which would prevent a repetition of the incident that had occurred that afternoon owing to the absence of Ministers at question time.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid he regretted the accident to which the right hon. gentleman referred. It was due to private business having been completed sooner than was the case earlier in the session. His right hon. friends would readjust their time-table. With regard to Supply, he would be able to give the right hon. Gentleman more accurate information on Monday. The papers with reference to Clause 4 of the Education Bill would be circulated tomorrow morning.

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1906–7.

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £10,496,741, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on March 31st, 1907, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office, including Telegraphs."
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,)said the most remarkable feature of the postal revenue at the present moment was the continued improvement which it had shown in every respect. He found that the excess of revenue from the various branches last year exceeded the estimate by about £670,000, and in the coming year the additional revenue derived from it was estimated at an excess of £800,000 over the previous year. The savings banks were also in a flourishing condition, and the number of depositors had increased. Their sheet-anchor was, of course, the penny stamp, and he was glad to say the revenue from that source was increasing month by month. The worst feature of the situation was the telegraph service. It had never been profitable, and now the telephone system had so largely taken its place that the revenue was falling off. The telephone system had made considerable progress, and the revenue derived from it was increasing rapidly year by year. The Post Office were pressing forward telephonic communication with various parts of the country, but they had great difficulty in obtaining wayleaves for the purpose. Not only did private individuals attempt to extort blackmail from the Post Office, but there was considerable difficulty with various local authorities. The Post Office had no desire to place overhead wires in places where they would be an eyesore; they were prepared to put the wires underground where necessary, and he hoped they would receive proper treatment from the local authorities. He hoped that the extension of wireless telegraphy as a commercial means of communication would take place rapidly. He expressed his surprise that the secretary of Lloyd's should have made a violent and unprovoked attack on the Post Office, and especially on his predecessor, in circulars on this matter which he sent to the newspapers and the Peers. All he could say with regard to the statement of the secretary of Lloyd's was that it was a pure travesty of the truth in regard to this matter. It was thought necessary to pass the Wireless Telegraphy Act to enable the Admiralty to control, in time of war, the stations that were being erected and to prevent the multiplication of stations to an extent that would interfere with the effective working of naval stations.
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  The Act was also necessary to arm the Post Office with power to carry out any agreement that might be come to at any international conference which might take place. He understood that one of the chief objects of the Act was not to create a monopoly, but to prevent the monopoly which was gradually being created by one company's erecting stations at all the most suitable places. The only means of preventing that was to give the Postmaster-General power to license various companies and various systems. Since the passing of the Act only one additional licence had been granted to the Marconi Company, while ninety-one licences of various kinds had been issued, and only three licences had been refused. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had described him as a sturdy beggar for asking that a portion of the revenue should be applied to the postal service. He agreed that the Post Office ought to be a revenue-bearing portion of our system, but when there were additional profits the public ought to have some benefit from them. The cost of the various domestic postal reforms to be carried out and those which would follow the new Postal Union Convention, when it came into force, would amount to £156,000 a year and £190,000 a year respectively; in all a charge on the Post Office of £350,000 when they came into full operation. It was not easy in the present condition of things to find money for postal reform, but he thought the Committee would recognise that £350,000 a year in our present financial straits was no small sum for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give him for that purpose. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech, had already referred to these proposals of domestic improvement, and he would only wish to supplement his right hon. friend's observations with a few words, and to indicate the nature of the reforms which he had been able to bring into operation. The first reform had reference to the charges for the Parcel Post, in regard to which he had introduced a new scale. The basis of that postage was a two-penny charge, with an additional penny a pound. What he had been able to do was to reduce the charge by a penny above the four pounds scale and by twopence in the upper scale from six pounds upwards. He confessed that that, of course, was only a provisional reform, and he thought

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  it was generally acknowledged that the Parcel Post might very well be enlarged and improved, and possibly the charges at the lower end of the scale also reduced, and the upper scales extended. But he had no funds this year which would enable him to carry out that proposal. Then there was the question of reduction in the cost of postal orders, which formed in this country a very popular form of remitting money. No less than 95,000,000 postal orders were issued last year, and when he looked into the matter he found that the number of orders of the lower denominations of 2s. and 2s. 6d. amounted to 12,000,000, which was an indication, he thought, that they were largely used by people in humble circumstances. The present charge of 1d. on those orders represented a charge of from 4 to 4½ per cent. on their cost price. He proposed to reduce the rate on orders of this denomination from 1d. to ½d., and the rate on orders from 11s. to 15s. from 1½d. to 1d. He thought that would be a great boon to a very large number of users of postal orders. He had been pressed by his hon. friend the Member for Canterbury, and by other hon. Members to extend what might be called the commercial halfpenny post, so that any printed document or any document that was not of a personal character which did not exceed 2oz. might be sent for one halfpenny. The difficulty had always been one of definition, but what he proposed to do was to revise the definition as it existed at present, and to extend the benefits of this particular post. He did not suppose that all the anomalies and difficulties would be entirely overcome, but he hoped a good deal might be done to the advantage of the commercial firms, traders, and others who used this post. The reform to which he attached most importance was the increase of postal, telegraph, and telephone facilities. He was surprised to find that there was a certain number of misguided people in this country who desired to have their postal facilities increased. He was not one of those. He would rather like to have them very much diminished, though he dared say that if he had not got the facilities he would want them. With the money placed at his disposal he would be able to secure, except in regard to very distant places or very scantily populated neighbourhoods, to every house in this country
  392
  the delivery of letters on at least three days a week. Then, at present, unless it could be shown that telegraph facilities were likely to be fairly profitable, or, at any rate, not to lead to any great loss, they were only granted under a guarantee that half the loss was borne by the individual of the locality, while the other half fell upon the Post Office, and in the case of the telephone the whole loss fell on the guarantor. In future, both in regard to telegraphs and trunk telephone lines, the guarantee would be reduced from one-half to one-third, and this, he hoped, would lead to an extension of these facilities to a large number of places where at present, unfortunately, they did not exist. He hoped, too, that this would meet the view of the Board of Agriculture as to the necessity of a cheap telephone service in rural and especially in fruit-growing districts. The improvements to which he referred would cost, as he had already stated, for a complete year, something like £156,000, and he thought he might claim that they would give relief which was very much needed, especially by the poorer classes, by the trading and commercial houses of the country and by the public at large. He was glad to think that the results of the Universal Postal Union Congress at Rome this year would be of considerable advantage to those who were interested in foreign postage. The hon. Member for Canterbury had urged upon him that at that conference he should have taken up an attitude of strongly pressing for a universal penny post throughout the world. His answer to that was a simple one, and perhaps it would appeal to hon. Members. He was personally sympathetic with the proposal that there should be a universal system of penny postage throughout the length and breadth of the world, and it was quite obvious that at some time or another that system would be introduced. It was equally evident that anomalies, such as that while they could send a letter from England to Australia for 1d., while it cost 2½d. to send a similar letter to Paris, did exist under the present system and must disappear. But the Government were not now in a position to deal with the question. Universal penny postage would involve this country in a loss of half a million sterling in postal revenue, and, as there would be practically no profit on the international penny postage, that loss,

  393
  would not be recouped, however largely the number of letters was increased as a result of the reduction. He thought the Committee would generally recognize that under present conditions the Government were not in a position to sacrifice £500,000 of revenue even for so laudable an object as that of universal penny postage. Even if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been in a position to offer him the £500,000 to play with, he was not sure that he should not have used it in other though perhaps less showy ways than in establishing universal penny postage. It would have been easy for the British delegates to make a demonstration in favour of the proposal for a universal penny postage if they had liked to do so, for when the Universal Postal Union Conference met, it was quite certain that a proposal for the establishment of the universal penny post would not have been carried and the Government could have professed to be in favour of it without involving the risk of any loss. But that would not have been, in his opinion, a satisfactory or honest way of dealing with the question, and therefore it was that he instructed the British delegates not to record their votes in favour of it. The British proposal at the Congress was that, failing universal penny postage, the initial charge of 2½d. should be reduced to 2d., and that, for every additional ½ oz. the charge should be 1d., instead of, as at present, 2½d. That would have meant that the charge for a letter weighing 1 oz. would have been reduced from 5d. to 3d. Both those proposals, he was sorry to say, were defeated, though they received the backing of all the English-speaking delegates and of some of the representatives of the other countries. However, largely as the result of the action of the British delegates, the initial weight of a foreign letter would be raised from ½ oz. to 1 oz., the charge remaining at 2½d.; while the charge for the second ounce would be 1½d. instead of 2½d., as at present. The upshot of the matter would be that, in future, they would be able to send a 1-oz. letter for 2½d. that formerly cost 5d., a 2-oz. letter for 4d. that formerly cost 10d., and a 3-oz. letter, which formerly cost 1s. 3d., for 5½d. He thought that would be regarded as a material relief to those sending letters abroad. Another result of these reductions would be that the
  394
  difficulties connected with the question of enclosure would very largely disappear. The British delegates at the Postal Union Congress proposed under instructions from home that in regard to underpaid letters the fine should be limited to 1d., whatever might be the overcharge. It was an annoying matter when a letter had been not quite sufficiently stamped, very often owing to a mere accident, to find a heavy charge for overweight. The proposal of the British delegates was not carried. Under this new system, however, the fine for the underpaid letter would not be as it had been, 5d., but could not exceed 3d. As to the difference between the proposals now adopted and Imperial penny postage, he was not sure that on the whole the advantage from the point of view of the foreign letter writer would not be greater under the former. The initial charge would no doubt be more than at present, but when it came to anything exceeding 2 oz. the advantage lay on the side of the allowance of an increased weight in place of a mere reduction of charge. Moreover, universal penny postage would not have affected our relations with the Colonies in regard to Imperial postage, which was at present 1d. the ½ oz. But the reform adopted by the Congress of raising the unit weight had this advantage with regard to our existing system of Imperial penny post—that in future we should be able to send to our Colonies, and to any part of the British Empire for 1d. an ounce instead of only half an ounce; while two ounces would cost 2d. instead of 4d. Another reform adopted by the Congress was the "reply coupon." Anyone writing to a friend abroad and desirous of sending postage for a reply or a small remittance could do so by means of an international coupon. The total cost of the proposals would be £190,000 a year. He hoped that before very long some of that would be recouped by the increased number of letters sent. Imperial penny postage had now been extended to practically the whole of the British Empire. Bechuanaland and Rhodesia had come in during the last twelve months, and the system now extended throughout the Empire with the exception of one or two small islands in the Pacific. To his predecessor, whose absence from the House he regretted, really belonged the credit of a reduction in the price of

  395
  porterage for telegrams and of another small reform. These were the proposals which the Department laid before the Committee, and he hoped they would be considered to be satisfactory. There were two other matters which were receiving his attention, but about which he was not in a position to say anything very definite. He hoped, however, that something might be done in the right direction. The first was a question which interested very much those who had directed their attention to the subject of Canadian postage—he meant the question whether we could give a material reduction on the postage of heavy articles, such as periodicals, magazines, and newspaper matter, in order to meet the American competition, which flooded Canada with American literature. He was in communication with the Canadian Government, and had made proposals and suggestions which he was sure they would meet in a friendly spirit, and he thought also in a favourable spirit. He hoped that before long some practical action might be taken. The second point was the question of reducing the postage on the literature for the blind. Every one had the greatest sympathy for the blind, and he was in negotiation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and those interested with a view to such a reduction. All these matters were dealt with from the point of view of the public, but they must not forget that the Postmaster-General was the largest employer of labour in this country. He employed 150,000 persons, and indirectly he employed 50,000 persons apart from the men working under contractors. Therefore, his action, good or bad, must have a considerable influence on the general position of the labour market. His view was that the Government ought to be a good employer. As to contractors, the question was largely one of whether they paid fair wages and whether their conditions of labour were proper conditions. He had had the honour of moving and getting the House to adopt the fair wages clause, and he had consequently a parental feeling in regard to that clause. He had given a great deal of attention to any facts brought before him, where it was alleged that proper wages were not paid or that proper conditions were not observed, and he would continue to do so, in order that the Resolution of the
  396
  House might be carried out with the fullest possible effect. He had been able in one or two cases to improve the conditions by drawing the attention of the contractors to them. The other day he gave notice of the termination of a contract because he thought it clear that the contractor was not, and never could be, a fair employer of labour. With regard to clothing contracts, the assent of the Treasury had enabled him to appoint an officer of the nature of an Inspector to be added to the Department, and for the first time the Postmaster-General would have an opportunity of more or less controlling the conditions of these clothing and other contracts or obtaining information as regarded them. With regard to the Department as a direct employer of manual labour, at Mount Pleasant and Holloway it was his anxious desire, and that of the Secretary and Controller, to place that work as far as possible on a stable basis, so that there should be the least possible fluctuations in regard to the work given out to these factories, and that there should not be a large number of men taken on at one time and discharged at another. Thus the men would be employed as far as possible from the beginning to the end of the year. The matter was not an easy one to arrange, but an endeavour was being made to carry it out. Referring to the Committee of Inquiry into the conditions and wages of postal servants, he said that the Committee was very much indebted to the members of that Committee, especially the chairman, for the great amount of time and attention they were giving to this important matter. As to the conditions of service, he thought the time had come when the full right of representation and combination ought to be allowed in the postal service as in other associations, and that there should be a reiteration of the right of appeal to the Postmaster-General. He believed that the stronger and more responsible a trade union was made the more likely were the relations between the trade union men and the employer to be good and satisfactory. Far from the recognition of postal trade unions leading to friction, he believed that the stronger and more representative the associations became the less would be the friction, and the more easy it would be to arrive at a conclusion satisfactory to both sides.

  397
  The last six months had been a period of exceptional pressure on the Department owing to the Committee of Inquiry, which took away the able Secretary and others for six or seven weeks, while reforms, spacial questions and memorials, deputations, etc., had consumed a large amount of time. In addition hon. Members themselves had something to do with the delay which took place in dealing with matters in which they were interested. He was informed a little while ago by his private secretary that in the ordinary way sixty or seventy applications of various sorts were made by hon. Members in the coarse of a calendar month, but that for some months past, in consequence perhaps of there being a new Government, a new Parliament, new Members, and a new Postmaster-General, the number of applications of all sorts had amounted to between 300 and 400 per month. This, he might say, was before there was an unfortunate vacancy in Glasgow, since when letters had been thick as leaves in Vallom brosa. He mentioned all this not as an excuse, but as an explanation of delay. He was not complaining of it at all, and he thanked ion. Members for the consideration which they always gave in these matters, and for not pressing him too severely. He wished to refer to the question of the appointment of sub-postmasters and medical officers. Ten years ago hon. Members had the direct power of appointing sub-postmasters, and so on. They had relinquished that power, but the position at present was that they had a certain power of recommendation to tie Postmaster-General. It certainly seemed to him that the old system ought to be reverted to or this matter taken out of the purview of politics altogether. Having now been Postmaster-General for six months, he had formed a very high idea of the marvellous organisation and efficiency of our great postal service. Of course there were accidents, but when he told the Committee that last year no less than 4,700,000,000 letters and packages were sent throughout this country and no less than 100,000,000 trunk telephone and telegraph messages, the wonder was not at the number of complaints but that they were not infinitely greater. He desired to recog-
  398
  nise the zeal and public spirit that animated all branches of the service, of which he was proud to be the temporary chief.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATONsaid the two important points which ought to engage the attention of the Committee, namely, the wages of postmen, and universal penny postage, would not come up to-day because the postmen's case was now being considered by a Committee, and the question of universal penny postage would be discussed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Postmaster-General in the Grand Committee room on July 3rd, when a deputation would wait upon them. He promised the Postmaster-General that when the time arrived they would be able to show that the loss by the introduction of universal penny postage would not amount to more than £125,000 a year. Imperial penny postage, although strongly opposed by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors, was carried. It was just the same in Rowland Hill's day, and it was found that no loss resulted from the introduction of the penny postage. He would show how little reliance could be placed on the brief prepared for his right hon. friend by referring to one matter. The right hon. Gentleman had told them of the blessings of increasing the weight of letters to foreign countries from a half ounce to one ounce. If the right hon. Gentleman would turn to Hansard of ten years ago when he asked the Postmaster-General of that time to increase the weight of letters to the Colonies and foreign countries from a half ounce to one ounce, he would find the reply was that a letter written on the strongest paper and in the strongest envelope could be sent for half an ounce to any part of the world, and it was not the intention to extend the weight to an ounce. To-day the right hon. Gentleman had referred in terms of praise to the benefits of the increase of the weight to an ounce. Surely after the insulting way in which the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors refused to increase the weight to an ounce there ought to be some sort of apology from the right hon. Gentleman for the attitude he took up to-day. No reliance could be placed on the figures supplied to the right hon. Gentleman as to the loss that would arise from the

  399
  introduction of universal penny postage. He was prepared to show that the initial loss would not be a quarter of what the right hon. Gentleman said, and that the increase of letters in three years would cover the loss. The right hon. Gentleman had said that he had given £150,000 this year in concessions, but he omitted to tell the Committee at the same time that the Post Office made £480,000 extra profit. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the time had not arrived for selling post-cards at their face value. The loss would be very small. This was the only country in the world in which it was not possible to get the postcard at its face value. Another reform which he would like to see carried out was that telegraph money orders should be delivered at the residence instead of the recipient having to go to a post office to get the money. In every other country the reform he asked for had been carried out. In regard to this, and, in fact, to all money orders, it was far better for one postman to take the money to 200 houses of the addressees than for 200 persons to go to the post office for the money advised in each of their money orders. It would be an immense saving of time. He hoped hon. Members would join with him in pressing for that reform. Then there was the question of the cost of sending money abroad. To send 5s. to Paris from this country the cost was 4½d., but the cost of sending the same amount from Paris to this country was only one penny. Surely England could afford to send money abroad as cheaply as France, and he hoped a conference would be held with the French authorities upon this point. The only answer he had received on this point was that if £20 was sent it would be cheaper. There was another reform which had been received with great favour in Australia, America, and Italy. He referred to private letter boxes at post offices. In Sydney, Melbourne, New York, and even in Rome, a private letter box could be rented, where by applying his own key a person could get his letters at any hour. This country refused to give that facility to travellers from all parts of the world. Such a reform would answer a good purpose, and would be largely used by people in various parts of the Empire.
  400
  The Postmaster-General had made a very curious admission with regard to the non-liability of the Post Office for anything which was stolen or any loss inflicted through the error or carelessness of the employees. He had told the Committee what a splendid staff he had, but he would like the right hon. Gentleman to adopt the practice which he would adopt in private life and when losses occurred to the public through gross carelessness or robbery pay his liabilities. To turn to another matter, this was the only country which refused to return a man a letter which he had posted in mistake. They insisted upon delivering it and refused to return it to the man who had written it. In every other country the moment a man sent a letter off by mistake he could go to the postmaster, and after furnishing the address and writing an account of the contents of the letter it would be returned to the writer. Often very serious injury had been done through mistakes of this kind, and he urged the right hon. Gentleman to allow writers of letters to withdraw them under those circumstances. There was another small matter which was causing great annoyance to a large number of persons, and that was the difficulty of buying stamps at railway stations. It was almost incredible that at the bookstalls they could not purchase a stamp. He was told by the great firm who controlled the bookstalls that it was owing to the excessive meanness of the Post Office that they could not get stamps at railway stations. If the Postmaster-General would look into this matter he should be much obliged. The right hon. Gentleman stated that he could not get any more money out of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but when a source of expenditure which was not justified was pointed out any business man would at once consider it, and put an end to it if possible. At the present moment they were losing £1,000,000 a year on the telegraph business. Every telegram that was dispatched cost the country 1s., whilst the average amount paid for it was only 7½d., which showed an absolute loss of 4½d. upon every telegram delivered. In round figures 90,000,000 telegrams cost £4,500,000, and the money received for them was £3,500,000. Would any business man tolerate this enormous loss

  401
  upon telegrams? He was a little worried when he heard his right hon. friend express such sympathy for postmasters, because he thought the time had arrived for putting an end to political patronage. In the great colony of Australia on the railways they had a Civil Service board irremovable as judges, and Members of Parliament had no right to make or interfere with promotions. He thanked the Committee for listening to him so patiently.
  MR LUPTONcongratulated the Postmaster-General upon the interesting speech he had made. He rose to say a few words in regard to the interests of the employees who carried out the work of the Post Office in the admirable way he had described. As regarded their religion there was no interference from the Postmaster-General, but it was only as regarded their blood that the Postmaster-General seemed to think he had the right of interference, and to say what kind of blood should flow in their veins. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that it was for the good of the country that all his employee should be vaccinated, and he would, therefore, call his attention to a few figures which might make him consider whether it was necessary to interfere with the liberty of those who served under him. In the smallpox hospital where he lived there had been admitted 577 cases, and of these 509 were vaccinated. No one looking at those figures could say that vaccination was a safeguard against smallpox. One of these people had been re-vaccinated three times, another four times, and another five times. He believed there were some people who were re-vaccinated every six months, but they were not all like the pauper who, when a doctor offered him a shilling if he would allow himself to be vaccinated, replied: "Yes, you may vaccinate the whole of my body at that rate." They usually valued their skins at a little more than one shilling a square inch, and the Post Office employees valued their skins more highly than that. Vaccination was absolutely useless. If the hon. Member for the Epping Division who laughed would give him two or three hours of his valuable time he would undertake to convert him. He knew the hon. and
  402
  gallant Member was a man of intelligence. He would offer him £10—
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Is it in order for a Member of this House to offer a bribe to another?
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not think it was serious.
  MR. LUPTON: I will hand him £10—
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Oh, leave that.
  MR. LUPTON: I am sorry the rules of the House will not allow me to finish my sentence.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: No, you must not.
  MR. LUPTON: I am sorry because it leaves me at a disadvantage. It prevents me making an explanation, and that half-sentence will go into the Press because I must not finish a sentence. People said, he continued, that in Germany they had wiped out smallpox by vaccination. In six years there were eighty-eight deaths in London from smallpox and in Berlin in the same period fifty-one.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Order, order! On the Post Office Estimates we cannot have a discussion on the general question of vaccination.
  MR. LUPTONsaid he could not trace the history of all Post Office officials, but he could trace the history of men in the Army, and he thought he was entitled to take statistics from the Army to show the effects of vaccination.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member was out of order in discussing the general question of vaccination.
  MR. LUPTONsaid he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, but what he wished to say was that the Postmaster-General could order vaccination if he liked, and he submitted he was entitled to raise the question of whether vaccination was of any use or not.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The question must be raised by itself, but the general question of vaccination is out of place on the Post Office Estimates.
  MR. LUPTONsaid that if vaccination was shown to be useless in the Army it must be useless in the Post Office. He supposed he was in order in saying that. In the last twenty-eight years, of 3,953 vaccinated soldiers 10 per cent, had died of smallpox. If they died in the Army in that ratio they would die in the same ratio in the Post Office. The hon. Member was proceeding to quote in stances of the effects of vaccination when—
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I have already said that we cannot have a general discussion on vaccination. The hon. Member must limit himself to vaccination in the Post Office and its effect upon Post Office officials.
  MR. LUPTON: No statistics are published as regards smallpox in the Post Office.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Then there is no use referring further to the matter.
  MR. LUPTONsaid he would content himself by asking the Postmaster-General to inquire into the question of vaccination and smallpox, and if he came to the conclusion that vaccination was useless he should revise the existing orders on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman might alter his regulations so that vaccination would only be compulsory if he thought it was necessary at all in the case of a severe epidemic. His opinion was that vaccination was no use at all.
  MR. WALTER LONG (Dublin, S.)said he wished, as having been connected with the Local Government Board for some time, to protest against the remarks of the hon. Member for the Sleaford Division. The hon. Member had said that the Postmaster-General should only make vaccination compulsory in the Post Office in the event of a severe epidemic. He protested against that because nothing
  404
  could be more disastrous to the service. He wished to draw attention to a subject which created a good deal of interest, but which had found very slight advocacy in the Committee. They had had a very interesting review by the Postmaster-General of the work of the Post Office for the year, and about the necessity for cheap Imperial postage, but while with the greater part of the world the postal arrangements were admirable and in this country the service rendered by the Post Office was of a character they had a right to admire, he was sorry to say that in many rural districts the condition of things was very bad. He knew of places which were well provided with railway communication, and contained a large population, where the postal arrangements were very far from what they ought to be. He had drawn attention to this matter repeatedly, but his representations had met with very meagre results. In many parts of the country the postal service arrived at a late hour in the morning, and the delivery took place at from half-past three to half-past four. Of course that did not affect the people who were able to keep carriages and servants, and could send for their letters; but the poorer people, the farmers and small traders, were very seriously inconvenienced by the want of adequate postal facilities. There were many farmers in the country who were seriously hampered in carrying on their business owing to their letters arriving after they had gone to the market, or to the neighbouring towns on business. They found on their return that their letters had arrived, but the post had left, and it was next morning before they were able to reply to their communications. Of course, the Postmaster-General had great difficulties to face, but he submitted that in many cases a great improvement might be effected by a re-arrangement of postal facilities. In certain districts local circumstances had altered. New railways had come into existence, and it would be quite easy by an alteration of the postal centres to afford the facilities asked for. He did not suggest that there should be the same number of deliveries as in the towns, but he submitted that there should be an arrival of letters early in the morning and a collection late in the

  405
  evening. At present a man in Manchester who spent 1d. on a letter got all the facilities he could desire, and an adequate return for the expenditure, but in the country districts a man did not get the same value for 1d. spent on a letter. He did not ask the Postmaster-General to say anything on the subject that day, but he asked him to give his earnest attention to this question so that all these difficulties might be overcome.
  MR. SEDDONsaid be wished to express his thanks to the Postmaster-General for his remarks with reference to the Post Office employees. The attitude of the right hon. Gentleman was not only the correct one, but stood out in strong relief against that of his predecessor. Personally he did not share the regret expressed that the late Postmaster-General was not present to criticise or to commend the statement for the current year. He had no desire to see that Gentleman in the House, and he did not regret the small part he had played in trying to keep him out. He did not think it was in the interests of the public service for any paid official, even a Cabinet Minister, to describe a section of the community as blood suckers and blackmailers. Until he had learned better manners he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would keep out of the House. He noticed that £580,000 was paid last year to contractors for carrying the mails by road, and he was told that in these cases the Post Office did not own the vans or have any control over the men. The result was that the men were paid low wages and worked long hours under unsatisfactory conditions. In the Post Office it had been demonstrated beyond all doubt that the employment of direct labour was efficient, economical, and in the public interest. Yet there was this enormous amount paid to contractors. Electric traction had passed out of the experimental stage, and the money now paid to contractors would pay three per cent, on something like £20,000,000. Surely this was a favourable opportunity for encouraging British industries by setting up a great motor carriage service to be worked by the Post Office. The Post Office was now sympathetic towards direct labour employment. He appealed
  406
  to the right hon. Gentleman to extend the operation of the principle and to secure the employment by the Post Office of as much direct labour as was possible. That would be, he held, an economy to the nation and a benefit to the workmen engaged.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid there were two Reports to which he wished to refer for a few moments. In the last Parliament there was a considerable body of opinion, on both sides of the House, as to the action of postal servants in bringing pressure to bear on Members of Parliament in regard to their grievances. In order to prevent the recurrence of that pressure he advocated the appointment of a permanent Commission, which should from time to time survey the changed conditions of industrial life and the alterations in its standards in regard to wages and living. The Commission should deal not only with the Post Office or any other Department but with the conditions prevailing in every Department, contrasted with those existing in civil life. It was true that at the present time a Committee had been appointed to inquire into this question as it affected the grievances of postal servants, but he regretted that the late Postmaster-General did not appoint, as he might have done, a permanent Commission which, if its constitution was satisfactory, he believed would have the support and confidence of both Parties. It should be representative of labour as well as of the other wide interests concerned. He appealed to the present Postmaster-General to take into consideration the question of bringing before Parliament the desirability of appointing a permanent Commission to deal with wages and conditions of service of Civil servants not only in the Post Office but in all Departments of State He thought that would satisfy the minds of those who were uneasy and alarmed about these grievances. The Postmaster-General had given promises n egard to some reforms which had been pressed upon him by a great many Members of the House of Commons, but he had not given any definite pledge as to the reduction of the postal rates between this country and

  407
  Canada. Last year a deputation consisting of twenty-one Members of Parliament waited upon the late Postmaster General and begged him to init ate a reform which would give to Canada that consideration to which she was entitled in regard to this very serious matter. The question had not been discussed for two or three years, and it was well worth going over the ground which had been traversed before, in order that a new House of Commons might understand the position. He was quite sure that there was not a Member of the House who did not desire the closest and most sympathetic relations between this country and the Colonies, and he was sure that there was no one who would not give reciprocal relations which did not involve any change in our fiscal system. He had nothing to do with the fiscal system of this country in regard to this question, and therefore he claimed the sympathy of his hon. friends opposite. At the present time periodicals and magazines going from this country to Canada had to be paid for at the rate of 4d. a pound, whereas periodicals going from the United States to Canada were paid for at the rate of a halfpenny a pound That being so, anyone interested in the industrial developement of this country and the developement of trade between ourselves and our Colonies must realise what a serious condition of things this was, because a magazine coming from the United States was filled, and purposely filled, with advertisements of American goods. Another serious thing was that there were fifty-five periodicals published in America to one published in Canada. Therefore, Canada was swamped with American literature which represented the commercial and social life of the United States and dealt with the attitude of Canada as a Colony towards this country. This constant influx of American literature and its influence in Canada tended to devitalise the loyalty of the Colony. That process had been going on year after year, and if they could devise a reform of the Postal Department—which was the milch cow of the Government far more than any other Department—without any undue pressure upon the resources at the disposal of the right hon. Gentleman, he
  408
  thought it ought to be done. A sixpenny monthly English magazine cost 9s. 6d. a year in Canada, whereas, an American magazine only cost 6s. 6d. That was a differential rate which effectually excluded English magazines and literature from Canada, except English magazines which were imported in bulk into the United States at a cost of 8s. per hundred pounds or about a penny a pound. When these magazines arrived in America, however, they had added to them about a hundred or a hundred and fifty pages of American advertisements. All this had a tendency to diminish the commercial interchange which should go on between this country and Canada, and to decrease the output of the industrial centres of this country. At present the Nineteenth Century, weighing ten or twelve ounces, cost 4½d. to send from London to Liverpool, whereas the quarterly issue of the Gentlewoman or of The Drapers' Record, weighing two and a half pounds and containing 130 pages of advertisements, and sixty-four pages partly advertisement and partly reading matter went through the post from London to Liverpool for a halfpenny. He called the system a stupid one, but when he put the matter before the late Postmaster-General almost a couple of years ago the right hon. Gentleman said that the publishers of certain publications took advantage of the Post Office Act, and so brought about the anomalies of which he complained. Of course if a proposal was made to remove anomalies of this kind it would receive opposition on the part of the owners of these huge and successful newspapers which went by post for a halfpenny. If the rates on magazines like the Nineteenth Century and the Contemporary were lowered, a better class of reading matter would be provided. During the last few years there had been a tendency to lower the taste of the public by cheap newspapers and literature, and it was desirable that the movement in that direction should not be encouraged. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman was sympathetic in this matter. Canada had shown its willingness to meet this country by stating that they would lower the rate with regard to magazines and periodicals by a farthing, and they were making that

  409
  concession upon international grounds. Canada, therefore, was trying to find a way out of the difficulty, and he hoped that the proposals which the right hon. Gentleman had made to the Government of that country were not of a nature which demanded too large a sacrifice. Successive Postmasters-Generals had always, with the whip of the Treasury snapped over their heads, opposed reforms which, when initiated, brought grist to the Treasury. So far as the telegraph department was concerned he was not prepared to offer any opinion. In view of the facts he had endeavoured to put before the Committee, and in view of the fact that there was a large body of opinion on both sides of the House in its favour, he thought the reply of the Postmaster-General with regard to Canada was most unsatisfactory. Canada was asking for the reduction of a penny on the postage rate on British magazines. She said that if we gave her that reduction she would be able to purchase more magazines of this country in order to compete with the great incursion of American magazines. But beyond the Imperial influence and solidarity through out the Empire which these magazines would convey, there was the commercial and industrial interest. He believed the Postmaster-General could do nothing more popular, so far as Canada was concerned, and he believed so far as this country was concerned, than to adjust these anomalies in connection with the inland postage, and in adjusting them make it possible to reduce the rates to Canada. He relied on the right hon. Gentleman, first, to give the Committee as soon as possible the terms of the negotiations into which he had entered with Canada; secondly, to make the conditions as light as possible for her to accept; and, thirdly, not to consider too seriously the possible loss of revenue, because he must remember that he did not get so much out of the postage as he would expect, as the bulk of the reading matter that went to Canada went by way of the United States, which got the bulk of the postage. In conclusion, he appealed once more to the right hon. Gentleman to advance this most excellent cause as rapidly as possible.
  MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green, S.W.)said it was obvious that the many topics which were usually discussed on
  410
  these Estimates could not be entered into now because the Committee which was considering them had not concluded its deliberations. But there was one question, which was not under the consideration of the Committee, to which he desired to refer. It was the question of the wages and conditions of service of the mail van drivers. He had always held that the conditions of service of these men and the wages they received were a disgrace to the Service and to the country. He would give the Committee a typical case. A mail van driver started out at 6 a.m., worked till 10 a.m., returned at 2 p.m., and left off at 10 p.m. for a wage of 3s. 6d. a day.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: What is the name of the contractor?
  MR. PICKERSGILLsaid he was unable to give the name of the contractor. But, in addition to those hours, the men had to attend on Sunday to clean their horses, harness and stables, for which they received no remuneration. He contended that no one who even indirectly was working for the State ought to be serving under such conditions. The right hon. Gentleman had told the Committee he had determined one contract because he was not satisfied with the conditions under which the men worked, but he would like to know what the right hon. Gentleman considered were fair and reasonable hours for a mail van driver, and what was a fair and reasonable salary. It appeared that at present the old Fair Wages Clause was incorporated in these contracts, but that was of no use, as long experience had shewn. He held the opinion that the Post Office ought to do its own cartage, but, until it did, he wished to press on the Postmaster-General very strongly that as the Fair Wages Clause had proved a failure, he ought to adopt the practice followed in many cases by the London County Council and other local bodies, of incorporating in these contracts a schedule of hours and wages. There was no difficulty in doing so. He felt very strongly upon this question, in which the people of the East End of London were largely concerned. But it was not only a question of workmen; the honour of the public and of this House was concerned. The men for whose conditions of service they were responsible should not be subjected to such conditions as those

  411
  which he had stated, In order to elicit a fuller statement upon this very important and pressing question, he moved to reduce the Vote by the amount of which he had given notice, namely £100.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £10,496,641, be granted for the said service."—(Mr. Pickersgill.)
  LORD VALENTIAcongratulated the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General upon being the first Minister occupying the position he held who had been able to see his way to grant a concession to his blind fellow countrymen, although he regretted the right hon. Gentleman was unable to state to the Committee what the concession was that he proposed to grant. All the Committee would share the sympathy exhibited by the right hon. Gentleman towards the blind. There were a great many people who did not realise that the blind had to suffer a considerable amount of hardship that more fortunate people had not to put up with. They had to pay as much rates and taxes as their more favoured brethren, but had not the opportunity of enjoying the amenities and advantages which those rates and taxes provided in the same way as those who had their sight. They had at great trouble, and after years of instruction, been taught to read with their hands, by a laborious but ingenious use of the sense of touch, to supplement the sense of which they are deficient; but after having been so instructed they found themselves still further handicapped by the price and the difficulty of getting the literature they required. The weight and bulk of literature for the blind was such as to make the cost of postage very heavy. The Postmaster-General had expressed his sympathy with the proposal, but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would appreciate the value of the adage that a little help was worth a deal of pity. The blind were obliged to confine themselves to such magazines as "Progress," which cost 6d.: the price of transmission through the post amounted to 3d., and for some o cult reason an
  412
  additional 1d. was sometimes charged. These were instances of the expense of sending through the post literature available for the use of the blind. A more astonishing piece of information was furnished by the Secretary of the British and Foreign Blind Association who told him that the weight of the Bible in a form for the blind was 105 lbs., and the cost of postage per copy £1 0s. 5d. This seemed to him to make it prohibitive in many cases for blind people, who were not very largely endowed with this world's goods, to obtain literature of any kind through the post. The preferential rate given to newspapers was regarded with envy by the blind. Such papers as the Field, the Graphic, and the Queen were larger in bulk and wider than the magazine for the blind he had referred to, and yet they passed through the post for ½d.; the Drapers' Record, with 300 pages on one occasion, passed through the post for ½d., although it was six times as large as the small magazine to which he had referred. He was glad to think that the Postmaster-General proposed to mitigate the difficulties which the blind suffered with regard to literature sent through the post. He only hoped the concession would be really material. The Postmaster-General conducted one of the most efficient and best equipped of the Government Departments, and he was so far happily placed that his was one of the Departments which invariably swelled the revenue instead of depleting it as other Departments did. The right hon. Gentleman, therefore, could be liberal without falling foul of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and follow the example of various foreign countries and British Colonies by allowing literature for the blind to pass free through the post. He urged the right hon. Gentleman not to spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar. Many proposals had been made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make use of public money for the benefit of Members of Parliament. If the Committee were polled to decide the question whether the right hon. Gentleman should yield to any of those proposals to grant, free postage for the blind, he would guarantee the right hon. Gentleman a larger majority than it had ever been his duty to tell in favour of the Government.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)said he had nothing but admiration for the statement of the Postmaster-General, and, notwithstanding his right hon. friend's gentle remonstrance with regard to the importunity of Members, he ventured to bring before him a grievance affecting the whole of the north-west of Ireland—he referred to the mail service between Ireland and England. The mail service proper—viz., the service via Holyhead—was as good as it could be. Trains leaving Derry in the afternoon about 3 o'clock reached Kingstown at 8 and London at 5.45 in the morning. But some time ago the merchants of Belfast asked for additional facilities via Greenore. After a good deal of fighting with the late Postmaster-General that boon was conceded, they securing a mail bag by the train leaving Belfast for Greenore. Of course that concession only whetted the appetite of the places left out. After another contest—he was on two deputations to the Postmaster-General—this boon was conceded to the city of Derry. That made the remaining places more clamorous. He submitted that the boon could be conceded to the other places without adding much to the cost and would entail absolutely no trouble to the Post Office officials. The train stopped at the stations and the postal officials were at the station with mails. It was a mystery how this could be denied. The invariable answer of the late Postmaster-General was that the amount of correspondence would not justify the increased cost. There would be little or no increased cost; and how did the Post Office know what the amount of correspondence would be before it had tried the experiment? He knew of one case in which a firm of linen merchants would send twenty or thirty more letters a day if they had this convenience. Why should the Post Office proceed in this piecemeal fashion, and having satisfied Belfast and Derry and shut off their pressure, leave the other three or four towns on the route from Derry to Belfast to contend for this simple act? He had to acknowledge the exceeding courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman on many occasions, and he would now ask him to look into this matter afresh. It would not involve any
  414
  extra charge on the Post Office, or any additional trouble.
  COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid he was anxious to take up the appeal of the hon. Member for Gravesend for a concession to Canada in the matter of the postage on magazines. It was a subject on which Canada felt very deeply, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not merely give a sympathetic answer, but state what he was able to do. He looked upon the question not so much from the commercial point of view, though that was important, as from a regard for the wishes of Canada itself. Canada had made very great concessions to us and would welcome, no doubt, similar concessions from this side of the water. He was tired of hearing subjects put forward as being non-political, but he really thought that this question was non-political. Hon. Gentlemen opposite might have different opinions as to how an Imperial bond should be created, but he was sure they would be all ready to assist in pressing upon the right hon. Gentleman a concession of postage which would assist high-class magazines from this country to be spread throughout Canada. Then there was the question of mail carts raised by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green. He was not prepared to go into the question of the wages of the drivers, though he was inclined to think they were underpaid. Nor was he inclined to go so far as to suggest the impropriety of not having a State service of mail drivers. But he did hope the right hon. Gentleman would go into the whole question. Not only were the mail drivers paid as low as possible, but the animals they drove were of the worst possible kind, and a great deal of cruelty was shown in the class of animal that was placed between the shafts and the way in which it was driven. He was more inclined on this occasion to plead for the animals than for the men, for he was sure other hon. Members would look after the men but might be apt to forget the horses. Motor traction might be usefully employed to the great saving of the horses and men and time, and the greater convenience of the rural districts. The motor vans now used in London could be

  415
  used also in the country districts with advantage. With regard to vaccination he thought the Postmaster-General was right in refusing to relax his rules. He heard with satisfaction that the guarantee in rural districts for post-offices was about to be reduced to one-third instead of one-half. That was a valuable concession, and one which would be a great benefit in the rural districts where the advantages of telegraphy were beginning to be more highly appreciated. He would also like to know how the employment of old soldiers as rural postmen was going on. Were such appointments on the increase or on the decrease? Had these old soldiers proved good servants, and had the new system of granting characters instituted a short time ago proved a success? He was painfully aware that in the old days the old system of characters was liable to abuse. Since that system had been abolished he knew of many good men who were out of employment, and he was naturally anxious that they should receive some consideration for the hardships they had undergone in their country's service. He would sooner have seen the 2s. and the 2s. 6d. postal orders left untouched, and the wages of the rural postmen increased.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: That matter, of course, is before the Committee.
  COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid that perhaps when the matter came up in a concrete form the right hon. Gentleman would see what could be done to assist the rural postmen, rural postmasters, sub-postmasters, and sub-postmistresses in the small country villages, who had such hard and responsible duties to perform, and whose remuneration was extremely small. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman would tell them that there were numerous applications for any of these positions under the Post Office, and that if there happened to be a sub-post office vacant he was overwhelmed with applications. That, however, did not affect the question that if a person did a certain amount of responsible work he should be paid a wage commensurate with that work. That, was the opinion of the majority in this House, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would remember that the class of
  416
  employees he had referred to were extremely scantily paid. If he would also make some announcement in regard to Canada he would confer a great boon upon that Colony, and also upon the people of this country.
  MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he quite agreed with the sentiments expressed by the right hon. and gallant Member for the Epping Division in regard to sub-postmasters, postmasters and postmistresses. He knew the case of three young men in his district, one of whom had to travel nine miles out and back for 1s. 6d.; another travelled seventeen miles out and back for 2s.; and the third seventeen miles out and back for 1s. 9d. Those were entirely inadequate rates of pay, and while it might be perfectly true that men could be readily obtained, that was no reason why the Post Office should not pay more. They ought to see that a fair rate of wages was paid and set a good example as model employers. Many grievances had been put forward by hon. Members, but they all sank into insignificance beside the grievances of his constituency, which had been absolutely neglected under the new scheme. When he listened to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who spoke of the large sums of money which were going to be devoted to securing that every district should have at least three deliveries a week, he felt exhilarated, because he thought at last a brighter day was dawning in the north country. But those hopes which had arisen in his mind and in his constituency had all been dashed to the ground; they were as badly off as ever, and it now appeared that there was not the slightest idea of giving his constituency any portion of this large sum of money for postal reforms. At present the county of Shetland had only one direct mail a week, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would try to do something in the direction of remedying that injustice. The Post Office paid a large sum for their mail service, but he did not think that adequate steps had ever been taken to find out whether better value could not be got for their money than they were getting at the present time. There was only one direct mail

  417
  service a week for the whole county of Shetland. They were only asking for two direct mails a week all the year round, and that they could not get. The county of Orkney had also its special grievance. The mail leaving London at 8 p.m., Inverness at 9.30 a.m., was due at Thurso at 3.30 p.m., and should arrive at Scapa, Kirkwall, before 8 p.m. Frequently the mails instead of arriving at 8 o'clock at night did not arrive until 11 o'clock, or sometimes later. In order to suit the convenience of the railway companies the right hon. Gentleman allowed the mails for a whole county to dawdle along at the sweet will of the railway companies. The Postmaster-General ought to take the railway companies by the throat, and let them know plainly that the Government would not allow them to treat thus not only the mail of the entire county of Orkney, but the mail of the greater portion of the county of Caithness. There had been in the past an unjustifiable detention of the steamer at Aithhole to pick up or drop the Laidlaw Factor or some shooting tenant. This privilege had been so abused that it had often caused great inconvenience. The predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman gave a pledge that this kind of thing would not be permitted to go on, and he hoped the Postmaster-General would see that that pledge was carried out to the effect that the mail steamer should not stop if it would cause delay of over ten minutes.
  Another grievance to which he desired to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman had reference to the delivery of mails from Kirkwall to the North Isles. The straightforward and the cheapest plan would be to start at one point one day and to travel all that day until the destination was reached, and to return on the following day. The people in the districts served were perfectly satisfied that could be done. He admitted that the Post Office was paying a very large sum for the Orkney and Shetland service, but at the same time he maintained that where the public interest was concerned, all other considerations should be put aside at once. These matters were really of vast importance to a considerable section of the community. The people who lived in distant
  418
  parts were entitled to far more consideration at the hands of the Postmaster-General than those who lived merely in the suburbs of London. Referring to the delivery of mails on Sunday in Scotland, he said he was sure the Postmaster-General knew that the Scottish people were nothing if not Sabbatarians. He thought a considerable sum of money could be saved by discontinuing certain mail cart and foot services which were provided at present all over Scotland on Sunday, only for the purpose of delivering a few letters which might very well be delivered on Monday. Where he lived in Ayrshire mails were driven over sixty miles out and home. [An HON. MEMBER: With one horse?] With one horse, but changed at stages. This was not a question of horseflesh, but a question of breaking the Sabbath day and the incurring of unnecessary cost. If the right hon. Gentleman would put a stop to these Sunday deliveries he would do much to commend himself in the eyes of religious Scotland.
  SIR A. ACLAND-HOODsaid he sympathised with the remarks of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, but perhaps he would be surprised to hear that some people who lived in Somersetshire, within 160 miles of London, were in the same position as those in the northern islands in respect to postal facilities. The case had been brought before the Post Office for many years, but little or no improvement had been made. Some of the farmers had their letters delivered four days a week, others three days a week, and others only two days a week. The hardship of this condition of affairs arose in this way. Most of these people tried to make a living by selling poultry, eggs, butter, and cream, and it was obvious that unless they could rely on getting orders in time they could not properly carry on their trade. Another way of living was by letting lodgings in the summer months, and in these days unless business men could get their letters and newspapers every morning they would not take the lodgings. The result was a serious loss of income to a certain number of his constituents. Another disadvantage was that stockbuyers who sent letters

  419
  intimating their intention to visit farmers sometimes arrived before the letters were delivered. It might happen that the farmers had to send some miles off for the stock. He hoped the Postmaster-General would look into the matter. He knew the old argument was that such a service would not pay, but no one could say that it would not pay until it was tried. He had never agreed with the Post Office opinion that all services should bring an immediate profit to the State. The farmers and small traders paid rates and taxes, and they were quite as much entitled to a daily delivery of letters as the richer people who lived in other districts.
  MR. MORTONasked who gave the instructions to the British representatives at the recent Postal Conference at Rome. These matters apparently were settled by the officials. He believed he was right in saying that the Postmaster-General was in favour of universal penny postage, but unfortunately the right hon. Gentleman had not much to say in the matter. It was a well known fact that the Post Office permanent officials were always against reform of any sort whatever. Every improvement in the postal system of this country for the last hundred years, including penny postage, had had to be forced on the officials from the outside. To-day the Committee were told that the adoption of universal penny postage would mean a loss of £500,000. The hon. Member for Canterbury calculated that the loss would be £125,000 for the first year. He would sooner take the hon. Member's calculation than that of the Post Office officials, because he had been right throughout and they had been wrong. So far as was known not a single shilling had been lost through the adoption of Imperial penny postage. Before our representatives were sent to Rome the opinion of this House should have been consulted on the question of universal penny postage. The proposal at the Conference in favour of universal penny postage was supported by the representatives of New Zealand and the United States but opposed by this country. He knew that the Postmaster-General had said that our representatives did not vote. They withdrew, and he was rather
  420
  ashamed of them for having done so. He should have liked to have seen this country taking a leading part in bringing about this reform for the welfare of the people, for there was no doubt that the extension of postal facilities tended to good feeling throughout the world. There was something in the newspapers about reducing the postage from 2½d. to 2d., and he understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had provided for that loss in the Budget Estimates of this year. What was the Postmaster-General going to do with that money? What he wanted was reforms for the benefit of the people of this country. He did not think there was very much in the complaint about the Canadians having American magazines. He had lived on the American continent for ten years, and he found that the American magazines were better than the English. ["Oh, oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen shook their heads, but probably there was not much more in their heads than in some of the English magazines. ["Oh!"] He insisted that a very large number of American magazines were superior to the English magazines. Canadians preferred to read the American magazines rather than some of those produced here. He wanted to call attention to the sweating that was going on in the making of the uniforms for the men] in the postal service. For instance, the contractors in the East End of London paid only 6½d. for making a pair of trousers. The middle-men were making a huge profit while the poor wretches who made the trousers were starving. He advocated that the uniforms should be made in Government factories so as to ensure that the real workers were paid a proper wage. Something had been said about introducing politics into the Post Office. When their friends on the Opposition Benches were in office they packed all these billets with Tory officials, and the result was that they could not get any reform.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYasked if it was in order to accuse a Government of packing offices with their friends.
  THE CHAIRMANthought that the remark of the hon. Gentleman might

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  cause unnecessary pain, and that it was one which ought not to be made.
  MR. MORTONsaid that at the suggestion of the Chairman he would withdraw the remark, and there was an end of it; but he was not surprised that his friends opposite were angry about it, their consciences pricked them. He complained that postal and telegraphic facilities in Sutherlandshire were incomplete; some places in that county were twenty miles from a telegraph office, and there were parts of the district where there was only one delivery of letters in the week. That meant that the people could not do their business properly. Moreover, he wanted to know whether the promise of the Prime Minister in regard to colonising our own country was to be carried out. He was afraid that nobody in Downing Street, in spite of that promise, knew anything about colonising. He himself had lived for ten years in the Colonies, and he could assure the Committee that never yet had Downing Street been able to govern a Colony properly. The Colonies only succeeded when they were granted the rights of self-government. That was why Canada was making such leaps and bounds in the way of progress. What the Colonies got was railway communication, postal and telegraphic facilities in order that the settlers might obtain the latest information as regarded prices for their produce. However, what he wanted to press was that the Prime Minister should carry out his promise that we should colonise our own country. There was room in Sutherlandshire for a further population of 50,000 people. One of the difficulties in Sutherlandshire was that, except on the east coast, there was no railway communication, and his right hon. friend the Postmaster-General lad not only neglected to, but had refused to give further Post Office facilities in his constituency. This was a serious matter to those farmers, crofters and fishermen who were struggling to get a living. Sutherlandshire had a right to have its reasonable demands in regard to postal facilities acceded to. There was mismanagement with regard to sending the mails by the new motor cars from Lairg to Lochinoh. He understood that that matter was still under the
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  consideration of his right hon. friend, and that he had not yet given a final answer. It was their duty to consider the people who resided in Great Britain and Ireland and to endeavour to make them s-elf-supporting and not to waste millions on wars and rumours of wars.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid they had had a most interesting discussion as to the necessity of providing further postal facilities. In regard to that subject he was sure that he never thought that he would be standing there, if the Postmaster-General would allow him, to take the part of that right hon. Gentleman. It must be remembered that although there was a large profit on the Post Office Department, that profit went to defray State expenses, and if the Post Office gave the facilities which hon Gentlemen were asking for they were only taking the money out of one pocket to put it into another, because if the money was spent in the way asked for the remit would be that taxation would have to be increased. It was on that ground that, if he would allow him, he wished to say a few words on behalf of the right hon. Gentleman. It had been said that this was not a Party question, and he agreed. It was not a Party question, but a question of business. An hon. Member had alluded to the fact that something like half a million of money appeared in these Estimates for the conveyance of mails upon the roads and had said that that represented about 3 per cent, interest on £20,000,000 of capital. He gathered, however, from the hon. Member's speech that he desired that a large sum of money should be spent upon electric traction without incurring any additional cost. He would point out that a considerable portion of this money was spent in conveying mails in the country, and that it would be impossible on country roads to provide electric traction. No doubt motor traction could be provided, but he had no doubt that that would be much more expensive than the present system. This was a question which had been exercising the minds of the great railway companies in England, who were endeavouring to see if they could not do away with horse and

  423
  substitute motor traction. The Midland Railway Company had instituted a few motor traction cars, and the right hon. Gentleman was himself making an experiment in regard to a few vehicles of the same class. For himself, he should like to see a system of motor traction instituted, but it must be remembered that as far as the conveyance of goods and parcels was concerned, motor traction was in its infancy, and experience tended to show that while, where they could find a large quantity of heavy goods on a particular road motor traction could be made profitable, where the number of parcels was small motor traction was very much more expensive than horse traction. As far as the Postmaster-General was concerned he thought the right hon. Gentleman had done well to institute in a small degree experiments in motor traction without committing himself to a large expenditure in that direction. His right hon. friend the Member for the Epping Division had alluded to the condition of the horses in the mail carts; and here again he felt compelled to take the part of the Postmaster-General. The condition of the horses in the mail vans was a few years ago extremely bad, and he had the honour of making an inspection of them at the request of the late Postmaster-General. He thought the result was a considerable improvement of the horses and that that improvement had been maintained since. If the right hon. Gentleman the present Postmaster-General asked him to perform a similar office he would be glad to carry it out again. As to wireles telegraphy he could not say whether it would be a commercial success, but up to the present moment it had not been, although the experiments had been interesting. The right hon. Gentleman had not mentioned what the loss would be in regard to his reductions in the charges on postal orders. He should like to know the amount. As to the appointment of a Committee of the House with regard to the wages of Post Office employees he did not propose to go into that question as the Committee was still sitting. He himself had had rather a curious experience in regard to this question in the course of his contest at Peckham. It had, however, nothing to do with his candidature or anything of that
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  sort. He had a discussion with a postman who was exceedingly frank in stating his views, and he did not, after listening to those views, quite agree with the appointment of this Committee. That postman was under the impression that the only way in which he could get his salary increased—he did not blame him, human nature being what it was he said that the only thing that concerned him was to get a rise in his wages—but he was under the impression that the only way to get that rise was to get his Member to vote for this Committee of Inquiry. For himself he had always refused to give any pledges to do that sort of thing, because it put Members in a very awkward position. If the Committee did not recommend or the House did not agree to a rise in wages there would be a good deal of disappointment, to say nothing of the pressure which would once again be brought to bear upon Members of Parliament by Post Office employees. [LABOUR cries of "Why not?"] He thought there was a very excellent reason against it. If the Committee were going to say that the whole of the Civil service were to use their votes to make Members vote for an increase of their salaries, he thought they were entering upon a very dangerous course. He remembered a brilliant speech by the late Sir William Harcourt, in which that right hon. Gentleman said he hoped both side would resist any such pressure, and he regretted to hear that any hon. Member thought otherwise. Another point was that if they granted a large increase of salaries, a large number of taxpayers would resist because money would be taken out of their pockets and put into those of others, when they were not in. a much better position, if any, than the recipients of the increased wages. The hon. Member for Canterbury was very wise in calling attention to the losses on the telegraph service, and he hoped it would be a warning to the right hon. Gentleman not to accede to the demand of the hon. Member for Sutherlandshire to give him further telegraphic facilities in the county he represented. He could not know what the cost would be until he had tried the changes. There was not the slightest doubt that

  425
  the reduction of telegraphic charges had caused loss, although when the reduction was made it was expected to be profitable. The reduction having been made, however, it was difficult to go back to the old charge, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would find that to be the case if he made the reductions now suggested. He had only one other point to which he wished to allude, and that was with regard to the medical officers. He found on page 68 of the Estimates that certain salaries were given to medical officers, and on page 82 that a payment was made to them of 8s. 6d. per head. Those payments altogether amounted to £720. What he wished to know was whether the payment of 8s. 6d. per head was in addition to the salary.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: No, the two things are quite separate.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid he was glad to hear it. He would conclude by hoping that the right hon. Gentleman would be a little stiff with regard to the concessions that had been asked for.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONassured the hon. Member for Sutherlandshire and the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland that he was quite as much alive as they were to the importance of increased postal and telegraphic facilities in the distant parts to which they had alluded. It was not a question of profit. On the contrary, there was always a loss on the postal facilities to these distant parts, and the question that must arise in regard to all those special cases was whether the increased burden was justified. Upon the general question, he hoped the postal reforms to which he had referred in his opening statement would be of great profit to the country. He assured the hon. Member for Sutherland that he was carefully considering the proposals he had brought before him. With regard to the question of motors, the postal authorities already made some use of motors, and they were at the present time in negotiation for a more extended use, and intended to use them to the utmost extent
  426
  on the main posts. And, of course, any advantage that accrued to the main posts from their use must accrue to the branch posts. He thought the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland had rather exaggerated the conditions which obtained in the postal service to those districts, because there were already three deliveries a week in the winter, and five in the summer.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: Not in the ordinary sense of a delivery every other day.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he understood that the hon. Member proposed to bring a deputation to him and he would he glad to go into the details them. The right hon. Member for the Wellington Division of Somerset mentioned the case of Exbourne. If the right hon. Member would draw his special attention to the conditions prevailing in that particular district he would do his best to meet his view, and he hoped under the new arrangements he would be able to do so. If the hon. Member for South Tyrone could suggest, as he had intimated, immense improvements in the postal service at no cost at all he should be delighted to meet him in any suggestions he had to make.
  The hon. Member for Sleaford had referred to the question of vaccination. All he could say in reply was that, rightly or wrongly, the general system of the British Civil service was that the men engaged in it should be vaccinated. If that wa right in regard to other Departments it was still more necessary and right in regard to the postal service. He assumed that vaccination was an advantage. That was the basis of the system of compulsory vaccination for the Civil service. If that was so, it must be quite clea that the men in the Postal service were the ones that ought of all others to be vaccinated, as they ran greater risk not only of contracting smallpox themselv but of carrying the contagion among the public. They had to go to poor districts and had to handle all sorts of package, and in the sorting office more men were employed in one room than in any other Department of the Civil service. Last year in the whole of the postal service,

  427
  comprising 150,000 men, there was no case of death or retirement caused either by smallpox or vaccination. The noble Lord the Member for Oxford had raised the question of reduced cost for the supply of literature to the blind. It had not yet been possible for him to decide definitely the final basis upon which the concession should be founded, but its general line would be a material reduction in the cost of parcels post under restrictions that would confine it to bona-fide cases. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green had raised a question in respect to contractors' carmen. He sympathised with the views expressed with regard to the excessive hours of work and the inadequate wage paid. But the difficulty in regard to contractors' employees was that it would involve an entire change in the system to give direct employment and necessitate large annual expenditure in building and so on, and that was one of the matters he had not yet been able to give proper attention to. As regarded the question of wages under existing contracts, he had done his test, when his attention had been drawn to any particular case, to insist as far as he could upon what seemed to be a fair wage and fair conditions. He would be glad to look into any specific case his hon. friend brought to him. The great difficulty was that there was no recognised rate of wages. He was giving considerable attention to the matter. The deputation which he was going to receive next week might be able to throw some light on the matter. Unfortunately, he was very much tied, because the contracts ranged over a very considerable period. That, of course, did not affect the fair wages clause. In any new contract he should certainly see that the proper conditions prevailed. In a case in which he did not think the employer was in a position to carry out the conditions of labour he had given notice to terminate the contract. He was endeavouring to arrive at some conclusion with the Canadian Government as to postage of Canadian newspapers. He recognised the great services rendered by the hon. Member for Canterbury to the cause of postal reform; but he would remind him that it was easier to devise reforms than to get from the Treasury the money necessary to carry them out.
  428
  He believed the hon. Member for Sutherland thought that the whole of the surplus ought to be applied to Post Office reform, or, at all events, a large portion of it.
  MR. MORTON: I did not say that, but I will say it now if you like.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that of course he did not agree with his hon. friend on that point. He thought the revenue from the Post Office must be used as some relief to the taxpayer. The question of the amount of money that ought to be given to the Postmaster-General was a source of perpetual difference and argument between the two offices concerned. As to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Canterbury that postcards should be sold for their face value, his attention was directed to that matter when he considered how best to dispose of the sum which the Treasury gave him on this occasion. To have carried out the reform suggested would have cost between £30,000 and £40,000 a year, and he came to the conclusion that the reform he had introduced would be more useful. The hon. Gentleman's wish, however, was one which he would like to see carried out, and when he got a little more money out of the Treasury perhaps he might be able to bring it about. In regard to the loss of articles in the post, where it was due to the fault of the Post Office he was willing to give proper compensation, but the Postmaster-General could not be liable for any amount of damages where there was a difference of opinion in regard to the value of a particular article. An important point which had been made and for which something might be said was that under proper conditions a letter which had been posted ought to be able to be recalled. With regard to universal penny postage, it would involve an initial cost of £500,000 a year; and as there would be no profit on a foreign letter carried for 1d., it was impossible that any increase in correspondence should make up for the initial loss. The hon. Gentleman had said that the loss would be £125,000 a year, but he did not understand where the hon. Gentleman got his figures from. Last October the hon. Member, in a letter to the Times, stated that the

  429
  cost of universal penny postage would be £375,000 a year. He could not see how the two figures could be made to correspond.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATONsaid the increase of letters accounted for it.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid the point they were discussing was the initial cost. However, he would not trouble the Committee further, only maintaining that the figure he gave was the correct one.
  MR. MORTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman reply upon the clothing question.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONreminded the hon. member that in his opening remarks he said that up to now the Postmaster-General had possessed no means of looking into the conditions of labour which prevailed under the contracts. But he had been able to appoint an inspector for this purpose, and he hoped that in future the Department would be in a better condition to look into and to control the conditions of labour under contracts.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYurged the claims of poor old soldiers for employment in the Post Office service, and called attention to the possible overburdening of rural postmen owing to the number of parcels containing agricultural and other produce that had to be carried. Had anything been done in the direction of getting into communication with the officers in command of depots and others for the purpose of giving employment to old soldiers, and had any steps been taken to increase the number of soldiers employed in this way? He did not think there could be any more legitimate demand made than that these positions should be made available to old soldiers and sailors. [Why?"] It was his opinion that those who had served their country in the Army and Navy had a very strong claim for these positions.
  MR. J. WARD: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman if they are competent for the business they undertake.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY: Allowing that they were competent, he thought they had a fair claim to those positions. Rural postmen did not require to be highly educated men, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give full consideration to this matter, and get in touch in the rural districts with those who were able to tell him who were the right men to employ. He was glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman had given increased facilities for the carrying of agricultural produce. He did not in the least wish to minimise the value of that boon, but he was afraid that the result would be that the number of parcels piled upon the back and shoulders of the rural postmen, who often had to go across fields and cross roads, would be enormously increased. Those who saw the rural postmen labouring under all these difficulties must feel with him that there ought to be some limit. He hoped some means would be found by which these men would be relieved, as it was not fair that in consequence of this change there should be put upon these men a burden which they could not reasonably be expected to carry. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give his attention to this matter.
  MR. AINSWORTHsaid that the proposed increase in the number of deliveries of letters to private houses in the Highlands, where the houses were extremely scattered, might involve a very large expenditure. He thought it would be of much greater benefit to the district to give a better mail service than an increase in the deliveries of letters. He desired to thank the Postmaster-General for the enormous boon he had conferred upon the West Coast by enabling them to have the London mail earlier.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLINsaid that if there was any Government Department in which good service should be extended to the people it was the Post Office. He was glad to hear from the Postmaster-General that he had been successful in getting back from the Chancellor of the Exchequer a reasonable proportion of the profits of the Post Office and he hoped a fair share of that money would reach Ireland. He regretted that

  431
  he could not agree with some of the conclusions of the hon. Member for Sutherland, who found fault generally with the Post Office service, which he said contrasted very unfavourably with the service he had seen in the Colonies. He could not agree with that contention. The telegraph service in this country was at the disposal of the Government and the telephone system was also largely controlled by them, whereas in Canada both telegraphs and telephones belonged to companies which were in no way controlled by the Government, nor were they established on so good a basis as in this country. In Canada their letters were not brought to the doors, and in many respects comparisons were odious. With regard to the charge of filling the Department with the friends of politicians, that kind of thing existed to a certain extent everywhere. Unfortunately, it existed in Ireland, and many of those in charge of the administration of post offices in Ireland neither belonged to Ireland nor understood the postal wants of the country. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would make some statement in regard to the representations which had been made to him in relation to Canada. He did not agree with the statement that the magazines and publications of this country were inferior to those of the United States; he thought they were of just as high an order as those published in America. The fact was that a demand had been made throughout Canada and other portions of the Empire for better facilities to obtain those publications, in order that they might be placed within the reach of Canadians. That request had not only come from the Press of Canada, and the large body of readers in that Colony, but it had formed the subject of a very important debate in the Canadian Senate, during which it was supported by prominent members of the Canadian Government and the Opposition. A Resolution in this direction was passed by the Canadian Government and forwarded to the Postmaster-General of the late Government. He knew that there was a strong feeling in Canada upon the subject. He took exception to the statement of the Postmaster-General that Irish Members
  432
  ought to be grateful for all he had done for Ireland by the extension of the telephone. Year in and year out he had asked the Post Office to extend the telephone system from Dublin to Galway, and nothing had been done; but now that the Postmaster-General was rich enough to give so many millions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer he hoped a telephonic trunk line between the extreme east and west of Ireland would be established. Representations had been made to the Postmaster-General by leading bodies in Dublin and Galway in favour of the establishment of the telephone system between the two cities. He wished to remind the right hon. Gentleman of a subject which was brought before him some months ago in the form of a Question, namely, the manufacture of postmen's clothes. The contracts for clothing were not at that time given so freely and extensively in Ireland as they might have been. While he did not object to employment being given in this country, he did object to the means of livelihood being taken away from a considerable section of the Irish population. The figures which had been placed before the House showed that the people were going away from Ireland in considerable numbers because they could not find employment. By placing more contracts in Ireland for clothing, the Postmaster-General could not only do good work for the people there, but obtain for the Department the very articles which were required. The right hon. Gentleman told him that a little contract had been given, but he himself thought more might have been done in this direction. Referring to the despatch of letters to New York by the mail leaving at the middle of the week, he said that on Wednesday he posted a letter for America, believing that it was in time for the mail. In order to be sure he asked the postmaster whether it was in time, and he discovered that it was not. One could never be sure as to the departure of mails for the United States and Canada on Wednesday, there being no fixed and regular hour of closing. He understood that the inconvenience of which he complained arose from the White Star line being unable sometimes to provide fast steamers, and that the Post Office was obliged on these occasions to send the

  433
  mails by German steamers from Southampton. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to look into this matter with the view of getting the White Star line to make their fast steamers available for the carrying of the mails.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON,who was indistinctly heard, was understood to say that certain figures which he quoted were not inconsistent with others which an hon. Member had given.
  MR. ROWLANDSthanked the Postmaster-General for extending the telegraphic facilities in the country. He stated that he was the first Member of Parliament to call attention to the grievances of the mail-cart drivers, and he had to discuss it with former Postmaster-Generals. He found that nothing much had been done. He pressed upon the Postmaster-General the importance of scheduling the hours to be worked by the mail-cart drivers in future contracts. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman would find great difficulty in getting anything like accurate information as to the hours now worked by the men.
  MR. PICKERSGILLthanked the Postmaster-General for his reply, and asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment by leave withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDexpressed regret that the Postmaster-General should have allowed himself to say of the secretary of Lloyd's, Sir H. Hozier, that he issued a circular which was a travesty of the truth. Sir H. Hozier was a gentleman with a reputation second to none in the city of London, and it was most unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman should have used such strong language regarding him. In respect to the question of wireless telegraphy, he understood that the idea of the Government in what they proposed to do was to prevent foreigners, in case of war, being able to take advantage of this country. In order to do that they
  434
  had made a contract with the Marconi Company. He found that the directors of that company who were going to protect us against foreign invasion were M. de Volder (President), M. Balser, M. de Coe Thys, M. M. Travailleur, G. Marconi, A. Ochs, I. Lowr, M. Renouard, M. Ch. Roux, M. E. de St. Paul de Sincary, Eruesto M Pinto, and M. Nagelruackers.
  MR. J. WARD: Is the hon. Member satisfied that that is not a Transvaal mining company?
  MR. W. RUTHERFORD: That is a very unseemly interruption.
  And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Busines set down, by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further proceeding was postponed without Question put.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL [BY ORDER].
  Order for consideration, as amended, read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be now considered."
  MR. RAWLINSONsaid that in moving that this Bill should be considered upon that day three months, he had no desire to interfere with nor had he any hostility to the municipal enterprise of the London County Council. But he thought it was only right that, in the public interest, an explanation should be given to the House of Commons of the expenditure of the London County Council whenever they came to the House, as in this instance, for Parliamentary sanction for loans on an exceedingly large scale. In the case of any ordinary borough or city, where sanction for loans had to be obtained, it was necessary to have a local inquiry presided over by a representative of the Local Government Board. But, in the case of the London County Council, the House of Commons was put in the

  435
  position of the inspector of the Local Government Board. He thought it would be admitted that there was some grounds for inquiry into, or at any rate, explanation of, the growing increase in the indebtedness of the London County Council. When the London County Council succeeded the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1889 their indebtedness was about £17,000,000. In dealing with the London County Council finance, there I were two heads which had to be considered—money borrowed for their own purposes, and money borrowed for the purpose of re-lending it to subsidiary authorities. He wanted to deal now only with the money which the London County Council had borrowed for their own purposes. As he had said, when the London County Council succeeded the Metropolitan Board of Works their indebtedness was £17,000,000. Ten years afterwards it had increased to £21,000,000; but by 1905 it had attained to the vast amount of £44,000,000. He was not for a moment posing as a person who would take up a strong position on one side or the other. What he wanted was that some explanation should be given to the House of this extraordinary increase. He found that the original estimate for the building of Vauxhall Bridge was £484,000, and that the revised estimate was £535,000, or a difference of £50,000. He would like to know whether that revised estimate meant the total cost of the bridge, or if there was an additional sum yet to be paid? Again, the original estimate of the cost of the Strand improvements was £4,800,000, while the actual cost was £5,186,000. What was the explanation of these large miscalculations? Was it the fact, that after certain people had received compensation, it was found that their buildings would not be required owing to changes in the original plan? He would like to know why the large island area facing the Strand was not put into the market, and was only used for temporary purposes by the Salvation Army. There seemed to be a lack of proper organisation and foresight in regard to these Strand improvements. There were other two items which demanded particular notice. The first was the river steamboat service. The original estimate of the cost was
  436
  £280 000, the revised estimate was £304,000, while the loss on the service last year was £51,000. He wanted to know whether it was intended to carry on that steamboat service in the winter as well as in the summer. To a very indirect extent he was interested in this matter, because he once invested £100 in a steamboat company which the London. County Council had run off the river. He had not sustained a very substantial loss, because he had never expected a dividend, but he should very much like, from a business point of view, to know whether the London County Council were going to run a winter service at a prospective loss of £50,000. Then there was the question of the tramways. A very large loan was being asked for for the extension of the tramways, and he wished the hon. Gentleman who represented the London County Council would give the House some explanation of this large additional expenditure. Was it the fact that the London County Council, in carrying a large amount to the reserve fund of the tramway enterprise, were acting in direct opposition to the recommendations of their Finance Committee? In view of the steamboat enterprise not turning out so well as the County Council anticipated, was that body justified in being so optimistic about the taking over of the northern system of tramways and asking sanction for exceedingly large loans in connection with it? He attached great weight to this question of increased municipal expenditure at the present time. The harsh incidence of taxation caused not only suffering among people with fixed incomes and small professional men, but the removal of industries from London to other places where the rates were less. They were now asked to sanction a very large sum of money for the building of a great county hall on the other side of Westminster Bridge—a very expensive quarter. Surely that was a luxury which might very well be deferred for a few years. He moved that the Bill be considered that day three months.
  MR. R. DUNCANseconded the Amendment. He said that no doubt in regard to the administration of large centres of population we were moving towards socialism of

  437
  some kind or another, but the services which were rendered by bodies like the London County Council had some dangerous aspects. They had in fact their dark shadow as well as their bright side. He would not say a word in condemnation of the river service and other schemes which had been carried out by the London County Council, but that body must not train our people to think that they were born with a large silver spoon in their mouth, but should encourage self-reliance, energy and individual enterprise.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this day three months.'"—(Mr. Rawlinson.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  MR. WOOD (Glasgow, St. Rollox)said he gathered from the hon. Member for Cambridge University that he did not intend to press this Amendment to a division. If he did it would be a most unusual course in regard to a Money Bill of the London County Council, having regard to the peculiar position in which London County Council finance stood under the Standing Orders of Parliament. If the Bill were lost there would be chaos in the municipal administration of London, but he understood the hon. Member would not press his Motion, but was rather desirous of being reassured. There was nothing from which the County Council suffered more than financial criticism without knowledge. There was a general vague impression that the Council was responsible for every rise in the rates. The rates of the County Council ten years ago were 1s. 3d. in the £; they were in the current year 1s. 5d. in the £. That increase of 2d. was not enormous, considering that the County Council had inherited from the Metropolitan Board of Works great arrears of work which had to be carried out in the interests of the health and welfare of Londoners.
  MR. RAWLINSONsaid he was not referring to the 1s. 3d. and the 1s. 5d.; the more important aspect of the matter was that the County Council had raised the
  438
  rateable value of London, and he was referring to the actual amount of rates.
  Mr. WOODsaid that that increase in the rateable value argued that great improvements had taken place, and that much new property had been created. But, of course, the creation of new property carried with it increased obligations, and the Council had had to extend their main drainage system, and fire brigade. A much more serious thing for the citizens than the increase in rates was the increase in rents. In accounting for the rise of rates he had first of all to point out that they suffered from a serious falling off in the surplus from the Exchequer contributions available for reducing rates. About fourteen or fifteen years ago the London County Council was able to apply from the Exchequer grants £290,000 in relief of rates. Since then the gross amount had increased very slightly, but the duties placed on the Council of paying money out of these grants for statutory purposes had so increased that they were now only able to apply £30,000. That accounted for¾d. out of the 2d. It was not increase of expenditure but diminution of receipts. These grants were expected to be a very important and growing relief to local rates when first sanctioned by Parliament, but the Royal Commission on Local Taxation which reported some time ago admitted in the frankest manner that London had been very unfairly treated in this matter. He had accounted for ¾d. The next item to which he would like to allude was the large Strand improvement that had been undertaken by the London County Council at the desire of the people of London and at the urgent request of the Party to which the hon. Member opposite belonged. He remembered Lord Rosebery once saying that the policy of the Party opposite was to lower the rates and to widen the Strand. Those were two things that could not be accomplished by one operation. The cost of the Strand and the Westminster improvements, which was a temporary charge, had added to the debt of London £6,250,000, and the service of the debt this year cost London £175,000, or about 1d. rate. Then there was the case of the steam-boats,

  439
  which had cost a farthing rate. Main drainage had also cost a good deal, and the increase of the fire brigade, largely caused by the disastrous fires in the City of London, cost another halfpenny. So that he had accounted for more than the 2d., which had been the rise in the rates on the last ten years. The hon. Member for Cambridge University said that in 1899 their debt was only £21,000,000, and that it was now £44,000,000, but he had forgotten to mention to the House that Parliament had placed on the Council the responsibility for the education of London, and with that had placed on their shoulders the old School Board debt of £11,500,000. That was a substantial figure which he thought ought in common justice to be mentioned, but which in political controversy was frequently ignored. With regard to Vauxhall Bridge, he was informed that the figure mentioned in the Bill would not be exceeded. He was not surprised that some explanation had been asked for with regard to the Strand improvement, but the answer was a very simple one. There had been no increase in the expenditure, and the amount now asked for was not to pay greater compensation. It was a bookkeeping item. The Clare market scheme and the Strand improvement were dealt with nearly at the same time. The County Council had intended to re-house a number of the people who were displaced by the improvement on the Clare Market area. But it was eventually found desirable to re-house them elsewhere, and the cost of the land no longer required for this purpose had been added to the cost of the improvement. It was a mere book-keeping entry which required them to deal with it in this way, and the change had resulted in a saving of money. The property for the Strand improvement had been acquired within the estimate of the County Council's valuer, which was made at the beginning of the undertaking. With regard to the steamboats, he trusted they would not be run during the winter months. They had had some experience of running a few during last winter, and it was obvious that the traffic was more or less a summer traffic. There was, however, one important fact to be noticed with regard to the steamboat service.
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  In the first place, all the witnesses before the Committee were perfectly clear in saying they did not expect the business to be carried on without loss during the first few years. Several of them thought it would ultimately be carried on at a profit, and time alone could prove whether their anticipations would be realised. Another curious thing was that they had never brought forward a project that was so strongly supported by the borough councils of London. They came forward one after the other and said they wished the project carried out; that they were prepared to pay their share of the loss; that they hoped it would not be much, but that they thought the service would be well worth a rate of a farthing or a halfpenny. So far the loss had been about a farthing. The traffic had improved. They had carried 240,000 passengers in Whit week, and had been carrying between 45,000 and 90,000 passengers a week during the last two months. Not only had the County Council the support of the borough councils, but they had the support of the entire Press without regard to politics. They were urged to take this step by the entire Press of London. He would give only one example. The St. James's Gazette, not an advocate of municipal trading, had thus exhorted them—
  "That great neglected highway lies within a stone's throw of Spring Gardens. Let the London County Council neglect it no longer. At present they are neglecting not only the river but their duty."
  Mr. Hayes Fisher, the late Member for Fulham, gave evidence in favour of the scheme, as well as the present Member for Hammersmith. It was not a Party undertaking. It was undertaken with the full admission of the County Council that they did not expect any immediate financial profit. With regard to the new County Hall, he might say that at the present moment the County Council was housed in nearly thirty different buildings, and he put it to any practical business man whether that was not a spendthrift and unsatisfactory way of conducting public business. They could have no control over it, and it led to an enormous waste of time. They were building on the other side of the Thames not a palace but a workshop, and they thought it

  441
  right that they should provide a workshop which was efficient and in which work could be done without waste of time and without extravagance. The hon. Member had said the tramways were a debatable point. He could not understand how anybody could look at the London tramways without seeing that London had in them an extremely valuable asset, and that the investment from the point of view of the ratepayers was an extremely profitable one. The small actual balance was no adequate test during a period of reconstruction, when miles of horse-tramways were being relaid for electric traction and traffic was dislocated. But they might take another test. They found as they changed from horse to electric traction the number of their passengers increased, and that the earning powers of the trams increased in a large measure. They had reckoned that if they got 1s. a car per mile it would be a profitable return, because the expense of hiring electric power from a company was 8d., which left 4d. for the payment of interest and sinking fund. They further estimated that when the station at Greenwich was complete the cost of electric power would be about 7d., and that station was now working. As a matter of fact, the expense of the electricity from a company had been a little less than 8d., and the receipts had been a little above 1s., and their margin for the interest and the sinking fund had averaged 4½d. instead of 4d. During the last two years the actual results had been better than they estimated by about £30,000 a year. He protested against the practice of looking at municipal finance without having regard to sinking fund. The sinking fund contained the money laid by for the redemption of debt. In the case of the tramways the greater part of the debt would be redeemed in twenty-five years, and supposing they made no profits but merely sufficient to keep up the interest out of revenue, while laying by the necessary amount for renewals, they had a sinking fund which would create a very valuable property for London in the future. They had already laid by £450,000. But they were doing better than that. He would like to call attention to a comparison made between the returns of municipal undertakings
  442
  and those of private companies. That was of course taking the two accounts on the same basis. In the case of the London County Council southern tramways for the year ending March 31st, 1905, the capital expenditure was £2,600,000, and the profit on working was £203,000, the percentage of profit to capital expenditure being over 7½ per cent. The London United Tramways Company for the year ending December, 1904, with a capital expenditure of £2,900,000, made a profit of £120,000, or a percentage of 4·1 per cent. The amount placed to reserve and depreciation accounts was £66,600 in the case of the Council trams, against £5,000 by the London United Tramways. At that time the Council were not generating their own electricity. To show the profitableness of electric traction as compared with horse traction he might inform the House that from Greenwich to the bridges in the last complete year of horse traction the receipts were £98,490; the 1905 receipts, under electric traction, were £169,000. The passengers carried were 23,000,000 in the former period, and in the latter 37,000,000. They looked to the number of persons carried as much as to the receipts. They embarked on these enterprises not solely to make money for the ratepayers, but to provide services for them which would not be provided by private enterprise. In the case of private ventures, routes which were immediately profitable must be chosen; but the London County Council could have regard to the development of traffic as affecting the housing of the people and the business interests of the town. They had tried to serve not one class, but all classes of the community. The people of London must become accustomed to large figures, for London had the population of a province and the wealth of a kingdom. They were bound to see that the resources of their great city were wisely and economically, but not stingily, administered.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid he had previously understood that the profits of municipal trading were to go in the relief of rates. He now understood from the hon. Gentleman it was not so, but that it was a kind of philanthropic enterprise.
  MR. WOODsaid the hon. Gentleman was not accurately representing what he said. He mentioned distinctly that they were very willing to make profits, but that they regarded municipal enterprise as having further reaching and more important effects.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid he now gathered that profit was a consideration, but only a secondary one. He agreed that if the Amendment were carried the result would be chaos in London county finance, and for that reason he trusted it would not be pressed to a division. He would have liked to move that some of the clauses should be referred back to the Committee, for they had a far-reaching financial effect. They were not clauses connected in any way with the administration of the expenditure of the London County Council. He was raising the question merely in the interests of sound finance. He objected to Clause 4 because it provided not for one year's expenditure, but for expenditure for eighteen months. He contended that the estimates of the London County Council submitted to the House should be framed for one year, and not for eighteen months, in order that the House might retain its control. There was no magic in eighteen months, and if the principle were admitted it might easily be said that authority should be obtained for two or three years. A very serious point was raised in regard to Clause 15 because it allowed the provision for the redemption of the Sinking Fund to be abolished. [Cries of "No."] Then what did it mean? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would explain.
  MR. WOOD: It certainly does not mean that.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid it meant the use of the money which had been put by for the Sinking Fund. Was not that correct? The hon. Gentleman did not answer. That being correct, then, it meant the use of money put by for the Sinking Fund, and that was the worst possible thing that could be done in finance; the Sinking Fund should be kept as a sacred trust for a certain purpose. It was not new, it had been
  444
  done by other municipalities. The next point was one in connection with Clause 17, where practically dividend was allowed to be paid out of capital. That was a mistake when applied to companies, and led to reckless finance, but to give such power to a municipality like the London County Council was sheer madness. Why should they use to pay interest money which they had borrowed? Their duty was to pay interest out of the revenue they raised. He had put three extremely important points, which he was quite certain could not be answered.
  MR. DICKINSONsaid he rose to reply to the three points put by the last speaker. But first he wished to express satisfaction that the subject of London finance should form the basis of a discussion in this House. He believed that nothing but good could come of it. At a time when municipal expenditure was becoming more and more important it was as well that they should understand the methods that had been adopted by a body which was unique in the excellence of its financial arrangements, under the guidance of some of the most eminent servants of the State. The points raised by the hon. Member had again and again been considered, not only by the council, but by this House, guided by the views of the Treasury. On all questions of loans the Treasury had something to say. The answer to the question why the Council asked power to borrow for eighteen months was apparent on the face of the schedule. That schedule gave the amounts to be authorised and stated that the estimates were required for the twelve months ending March 31st, 1907, and that an additional sum was required to carry on to September 30th. Unless the latter authority were given all the powers of the Council of capital expenditure would expire in March next before Parliament would have had the opportunity of renewing them by passing the Annual Money Act in June or July, and the Council's work would thus come to a temporary standstill. The next point raised had relation to a matter which also had Treasury sanction. The debt was not repayable until sixty years after borrowing, and the earliest payment would be in 1929. In order to prevent

  445
  the piling up of a great fund of money for repaying the stockholders, it was thought well that use should be made of the accumulating fund to make short loans to various London public bodies, conditions being strictly laid down, in the clause, for repayment of the whole before the money became due to stockholders. This course might be open to the theoretical objection that the money for the stockholders was not in the Council's coffers at the particular moment, but it was there so far as London as a whole was concerned, and the borough councils and the boards of guardians were solvent. Therefore the stockholders were perfectly secure, as the money would be back again in the Council's hands before it was required for redemption. The third point raised by the hon. Member was that permission was given in certain conditions to pay interest out of capital. He was not sure this was the case in the Bill they were discussing, although he knew that the Council were anxious to be allowed to do what many companies had done in the initial stages of a great undertaking. This plan was eminently suitable for municipal operations. One of the cases in which the council realised the necessity for such a plan was the Strand-Holborn improvement. An enormous amount of money had to be borrowed for the purchase of land which in a very short time was going to be let off on long leases, and it appeared to be perfectly fair that the ratepayers in the first year or two should not be called upon to pay very large interest while waiting for the time when the property would become remunerative. Those were all the points raised by the hon. Baronet, and he was grateful to him and the hon. Member for the University of Cambridge for having brought these points forward and having afforded him an opportunity of placing these facts before the House.
  MR. BRIDGEMANthought they were entitled to ask for a little more information. It had been said that this Bill dealt with a quest on of national importance and that it dealt with the finances of a kingdom. He thought an hour's discussion of a question of such magnitude was a very short time indeed. He did not find fault with the aims and aspirations of hon.
  446
  Members who represented the London County Council, but the question was: How far would the experiments that had been tried do harm, although they were intended to do good? He thought an increase of 2d. in the county council rate was considerable, having regard to the increased rateable value, and they had not received a satisfactory reply in regard to the increase of the debt. They had been told that the London County Council had the advantage of retired officials from the Treasury to guide them in questions of finance. That was perfectly true, but was it true that the council had listened to the advice which some of those gentlemen had given? He knew that the Council had received one or two warnings from the present Chairman of the Finance Committee. He thought the increase in the rates was very severe, and would have a considerable tendency in the direction of driving people out of London. [An HON. MEMBER: "Whose rates?"] He was referring to the London County Council rates. He did not complain that the rates were going up on account of education, but an increase in the London County Council rate of 2d. was a heavy increase when they took into account the enormous increase in the rateable value. The accusation that the Council had made rash estimates of their expenditure had been denied, but why was it that they had asked in this Bill for more than half a million of money to make good deficiencies in estimates? He should have thought that it would have been possible to bring the estimates nearer the mark than that. With regard to the tramways, he wished to know what proportion of the expenses of street widenings was charged to the tramway account. That was a point which he thought they required some enlightenment upon. In the earlier part of the Bill it was proposed to empower the Council to construct and equip new tramways, institute certain street improvements, purchase land, and spend money for these and other purposes. Money was spent on the widening of streets where tramways were made, and he wanted to know how that money was accounted for in the tramways account. He fancied that the streets widening account of the London County Council last year amounted to something

  447
  like £4,000,000, but that did not affect his argument, whatever the figure might be. He understood that the County Council professed to charge one-third of the cost of street widening to the tramways account. He asked how much of the salaries of the staff were charged to the tramways account. He was glad to hear that the County Council did not propose to continue the service of steam boats next winter. He should like to get some further information in regard to the finance of the new offices. The hon. Member for the St. Rollox division had said that the County Council were housed at present in thirty different buildings. Were they to understand that accommodation would be provided in the new premises for the whole of the staff now housed in these thirty buildings? If so, his objection to the new building would be entirely removed.
  MR. BAKER (Finsbury, E.)said it might interest the House to know that hitherto the amount paid on the basis of one-third of the cost of street widening on account of tramways had been in respect of streets where not a single tramway car had yet been run. The amount involved on capital account was already about £100,000, and the amount paid out in advance for interest and sinking fund charges was between £10,000 and £12,000. Last year, £6,000 was charged to the tramways account as interest and sinking fund charges on capital for street widening in respect of streets where probably no car would run for the next six months. He asked the House to take note of the fact that while the tramways account was charged with the cost of laying down and maintaining the pavement between the tracks and eighteen inches on each side, the electric tramways did not involve the use of the pavement in the slightest degree. There were no horses' hoofs to wear out the paving. On the other hand they provided cars which carried seventy passengers, that being double the number carried by a motor omnibus. In doing so they removed from the actual street traffic 50 per cent. of the vehicles that would otherwise be required to carry the same number of passengers. As to the question of the contribution of the County Council to the reduction of the rates, some interesting tables had been
  448
  prepared by the Council's comptroller. Hitherto the amount contributed by the profits of the County Council was no less than £293,000, and that was after paying interest and providing a sinking fund, under which the whole cost of the buildings and lines would be paid in twenty-five years, and also after providing a reserve fund of over £100,000. £607,000 had also been paid out of profits in reduction of debt. The House might be perfectly assured that the County Council finance was on the soundest basis.
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH (Derbyshire, W.)said the points raised by his hon. friends had been most admirably met by the hon. Members who had spoken for the London County Council. He wished to have further information in regard to the item of £32,000 referred to in Section 34 of the schedule. He expressed surprise that no representative of the Treasury was present. He understood that the President of the Local Government Board was present not so much as a representative of the Government but as a proud parent looking with admiration on the healthy appetite of his offspring. In view of the fact that many of these proposals must come before the Treasury for approval it was unfortunate that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not present. They might have been favoured with a discourse such as they were able to have the pleasure of reading in the papers that morning from the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the evils of municipal borrowing, and it would have been interesting to the House if instead of making that speech elsewhere he had reserved it for the present important debate. He should have liked to know the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon this Bill. This was an important matter from the point of view of the London ratepayers, and also from the point of view of national finance, for the London County Council would have to go into the market from time to time to borrow. He hoped his hon. friend would not press the Amendment.
  MR. STRAUSsaid he rose to correct a misapprehension that seemed to exist owing to a

  449
  remark made by the hon. Member for the City. There was nothing in this Bill to enable the London County Council to pay interest out of capital, although if the Council were a public company, there was no doubt that they would have asked for this power. Railway companies were invariably allowed to pay interest out of capital during construction. Section 17 of the Bill which was the section referred to by the hon. Member for St. Pancras, and which was exectly the same as in the Council's former money Bills, empowered the Council when it issued a loan to pay out of the proceeds thereof interest on the new stock for the period prior to the receipts of the cash instalments of the loan. That extra interest was, of course, taken into consideration by those applying for the stock, and a higher price was realised. There was no doubt that the finance of the London County Council was on a perfectly sound basis; it was stronger and more secure than that of any public company and would bear the most careful and minute examination.
  MR. RAWLINSONsaid he was absolutely satisfied with the explanation which had been given and he asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to. Bill, as Amended, considered.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1906–7.

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £10,426,741, be granted to His Majesty to complete
  450
  the sum necessary to defray the Charge which Mall come in course of payment during the year ending on March 31st, 1907, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office, including Telegraphs."
  Mr. J. WARDsaid that it had been urged that day that great consideration should be shown to discharged soldiers by the Postmaster-General in taking them into the employment of the Department. But he urged that the Postmaster-General before giving special facilities for taking discharged soldiers into the postal service should consider the claim of the thousands of boys who were already in the service as telegraphic messengers. These boys often remained in the Post Office until they were fourteen or fifteen years of age, when it was too late for them to equip themselves for other employment, and were then turned adrift because vacancies could not be found for them. So far as ordinary labourers were concerned, they were treated in accordance with Trade Union conditions, with the exception of the timbermen, who were paid at the rate of 8d. per hour for ten hours a day, whereas the Postmaster-General only paid them 7d. per hour. He wished to call attention to the unsatisfactory accommodation of the post office at Stoke. It was an old railway shed fitted up forty years ago for the purpose of a post office, and he believed if the right hon. the Postmaster-General only visited the place he would acknowledge that it was the worst equipped post office in the whole country. With regard to labour matters generally, he wished to thank the Postmaster-General for the consideration which he had given to all demands made by working men for fair treatment in his Department. Never before did he remember such careful attention being paid to the grievances of workmen employed by a Government Department; and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would have many years to carry on his enlightened supervision of that Department.
  MR. SILCOCKsaid he wished to draw attention to the distribution of lottery circulars through the Post Office. In a case recently brought to his notice, the circulars were posted in

  451
  London, and he insisted that steps should be taken to prevent the circulation of those incitements to gambling.
  MR. BRIDGEMANsaid that he had had complaints from business men in a small way in country towns as to the fee of £2 charged in connection with the delivery of telegrams at their private residences after business hours. The clerks in the Post Office had to be there at any rate, and it was only a question of the messengers having to go perhaps a few hundred yards further, and it was hard that these small dealers should have to pay £2 a year for this small advantage. It would be simpler to make a small surcharge on each telegram. The hon. Member also drew attention to the burdens which rural postmen had to carry. There was at the present moment, he knew, a limit of weight, and if the burden of the postman exceeded that limit the postmaster was expected to engage an extra postman to carry whatever was in excess of the limit. He doubted very much, however, whether that order was always carried out, as he had often seen postmen overburdened. He hoped that in future steps would be taken to see that the limit of weight was never exceeded. He hoped, moreover, that the carrying out of the new rules in regard to the conveyance of agricultural produce would not entail more severe labour upon the rural postman than was absolutely necessary. Another point to which he wished to call attention was a regulation in the postal guide in regard to Inland money orders. This regulation ran, "Payment will be subject to the possession by the postmaster of sufficient funds." In the minds of some persons such a condition might give birth to a doubt as to the financial stability of the Exchequer. [Cries of "Oh."] Hon. Gentleman seemed to have a doubt about that. [An HON. MEMBER: "I should think so."] He quite agreed that there seemed to be no foundation for any such fear, but the hon. Member for Anglesey, in a speech he made at Oswestry in January, 1905, alluded to this subject, and said the regulation was evidence enough that they were getting perilously near a paper currency, which was one of the most dangerous events which could
  452
  occur to any country. The hon. Member said, moreover, that the last Government had hokey-pokeyed the finance of the country, and was responsible for that condition of things. If the hon. Member for Anglesey was still of that opinion let him argue it out with the present Postmaster-General. He quoted that speech to show that such a statement as that contained in the regulation was likely to be used to create in the minds of certain people in the country a feeling of uneasiness. He should like to have the opinion of the Postmaster-General on this point.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONasked, first, for information as to the progress being made with the laying of underground telegraph wires to the centres of commerce in Scotland, and, secondly, whether it was possible to extend the trunk telephone lines north of Inverness.
  MR. DALZIELsaid before the debate closed he should like to refer to one or two points which had not been mentioned. He wished to recommend to the right hon. Gentleman that in cases of appointment to the highest positions in the postal service, where other qualifications were equal, he should in Scotland give the preference to Scotsmen. [An HON. MEMBER: "And to Yorkshiremen in Yorkshire."] He quite agreed that that should be the case if the Yorkshireman had the same qualifications as the other competitor, because his local knowledge would be useful. He also complained that the postal service to and from South Africa was very unsatisfactory, inasmuch as a reply to a letter from the Colonies could not be sent off without the loss of a week. He hoped the Postmaster-General would make some representations in the proper quarters that the South African mail should arrive on a Friday, and then letters in reply could be sent back on Saturday. In that way letters would arrive on a Friday. It was altogether wrong that letters should arrive on a Saturday when it was impossible to reply to them in time to catch the outgoing boat. The difference would be entirely obviated if the

  453
  steamers kept going and did not deliberately slow down and take two days more than was necessary, in order to save coal. We were living at a time when it was a scandal that steamship passengers should have their voyage deliberately delayed for a couple of days for any such purpose. If it was not for that the letters might be received on a Thursday in ample time to transmit replies by the outgoing mail. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give some concession on this point, and that he would also make representations to Durban, which he (Mr. Dalziel) believed was responsible for a portion of the subsidy. There was one other point to which he wished to allude, namely, the question of sending telegrams on Sundays. At the present time a telegram could only be sent on Sundays from the Charing Cross or the Central Post Office. It was extremely inconvenient for any one who had to reply to a telegram on that day always to have to go to Charing Cross or the Central Office. He therefore suggested that for the public convenience a certain number of the principal offices should be kept open for a certain number of hours for the purpose of receiving and despatching telegrams.
  MR. FELLasked for some information as to the surcharges levied on foreign post cards. If there was any writing on a picture post card in the place where writing would ordinarily appear the recipient would be charged twopence and sometimes threepence. He wished to know whether something could not be done to abolish this charge, which could not result in much revenue to the Government, but which caused an infinite amount of annoyance to the recipients of these cards.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS (St. Pancras, N.)asked the Postmaster-General whether he could make any statement as to the dismissal of telegraph workers at Mount Pleasant. Some who had been there fifteen and twenty years had had notice to terminate their engagements, and they wished to know whether they were to be offered any equivalent employment and in what position they stood with regard to their compassionate allowances.
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  His right hon. friend had, he knew, already considered the matter, and he believed that if the right hon. Gentleman could now see his way to make a public statement it would allay some misapprehension and relieve some disappointment.
  MR. E. H. LAMBhoped the Postmaster-General would establish a uniform boundary for the Metropolitan area telephone system. A message from Gravesend cost sixpence, while one sent from Tilbury, on the other side of the river, cost only twopence. Consequently, there was always a strong temptation for people coming up the river to land on the Essex coast rather than at Gravesend for the purpose of getting into telephonic communication with London. He suggested that instead of the anomalous area that now existed the right hon. Gentleman should give a uniform area to the Metropolitan telephones, say of some thirty-six miles, so that towns in close proximity to London could have the privileges which other towns in the immediate vicinity had. He would also like to know whether it was a rule of the Post Office that when a head postmastership became vacant that position should not be given to the assistant postmaster. Quite recently the head mastership in Rochester became vacant and the assistant postmaster was not put into the position but some other person brought in from the outside. Was that to be a rule of the postal service?
  MR. C. E. PRICEcomplained of the way in which these higher appointments were filled up from London, with the result that there was no promotion. Two years ago, owing to representations that were made, one of these higher appointments was filled up by its being given to an assistant with the result that there was general promotion all through the office. It had a most injurious effect on any body of men to find that all the higher offices were a close corporation and that they could never obtain any of these higher positions. He was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had taken up the question of the illustrated price lists for Canada, but at the same time he would

  455
  like to call attention to the difficulty with regard to Australia. In the last few years considerable restrictions had been placed upon illustrated price lists for Australia. He also called attention to the position of sub-postmasters, who were now on a fixed scale of salary, and unfortunately their work was not recognised on public holidays. The guarantee which sub-postmasters had to give for their assistants was also a matter which required looking into. He thought, too, that as they were not civil servants they should be free from political restrictions and should be allowed to exercise the ordinary rights of citizenship.
  SIR F. BANBURYpresumed the item of £21,290 for electric light generating plant implied that the department made their own electric light. That was no doubt right in days gone by, but with the great increase of electric lighting companies in London would it not be cheaper to obtain the light from one of them instead of maintaining costly plant? It was well known that electricity generated on a small scale was extremely expensive. Unless the right hon. Gentleman had a very good argument to adduce against scrapping the plant, it would be better to obtain the light from a company.
  MR. REESasked if it were possible to give a second delivery of letters in Montgomeryshire. There were many towns of a fair size which had only one delivery a day and which were very anxious to get another. The Cambrian Railway service was not good, though he did not complain of that, as the circumstances of the railway should be considered. But where the railway service allowed of a second delivery he thought such should be granted at places like Caersws, for instance. The complaint of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs with regard to the slowing down of steamers with the South African mails applied similarly to the mail services to and from India. If it could be possible to make an arrangement to obviate that it would be more satisfactory and would result in some saving of time, possibly at no great expense.
  MR. W. T. WILSONthanked the Postmaster-General for his kindly reference to trade unions, and his announcement that the fair wages clause should be put in future contracts. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would put that clause into operation in all workshops and factories under his control, so that trade unionists would be able to accept employment therein. He also wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would alter the regulations with regard to the charge made for circulars. Another question which called for consideration related to learners in post offices. In some of the provincial towns a great many learners were taken on by postmasters, and the result was they often had to wait a considerable time before being appointed as clerks.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONhoped the Committee would allow the vote to be passed to-night. In reply to the various criticisms, he would try to take them in the order they were put. First with regard to the question of the employment of ex-soldiers and ex-sailors. The hon. Member for Stoke had asked whether he was prepared to give a larger number of appointments to them. As Postmaster-General he entirely declined to take such action. The result of agreements with the Admiralty and War Office, made a few years ago, that 50 per cent. of certain appointments should be given to ex-soldiers and ex-sailors who were eligible had been that the Post Office had had to discharge a very large number of their boy messengers instead of giving them establishment appointments. That was a serious blot on the present postal system, and he should strongly resist any extension of the system, although, of course, he was in entire sympathy with the War Office point of view. He had been in communication with the War Office in regard to the matter, and hoped that by arrangement they might be able to obtain greater elasticity, so as to enable the Post Office in future to continue in their service a larger number of their boy messengers. With regard to the condition of Stoke Post Office, he was not at the present moment versed in the matter, but if he found that the post office was in the deplorable condition which the hon. member described he would certainly

  457
  endeavour to do something—at all events not another ten years would be allowed to pass before something was done to remedy the evil. The hon. Gentleman had also raised a matter relating to wages which he would look into at once. If the hon. Member for the Westhoughton Division would mention any specific cases in which justice was not done to learners he would give the matter his attention. As to objectionable circulars, where they were open he had stopped them and had challenged legal action which had not been taken. But a sealed letter was a different thing. About a sealed letter there was felt to be a certain sanctity, and without an Act of Parliament he had no power to open such a letter, except with the written consent of a Secretary of State. He desired to assure the hon. Member who had raised this question that although he agreed with his views, at the present moment he was not able to carry his administrative action as far as he would like. Where the Post Office had evidence that illegal matter was being sent information was given to the police. The underground main telegraph line had now been carried to Glasgow, and the construction of the sub-lines. He had not had time to deal with the cash-on-delivery system; it was a thorny subject. His predecessor introduced a scheme with a great flourish of trumpets and had immediately to withdraw it. The last point he had to deal with was the question put by the junior Member for the City of London as to whether it would be cheaper for the Post Office to go to companies for the supply of electricity than to generate its own. The point had been carefully considered, and it was thought that it was cheaper to generate electricity. There had been no general principle laid down. Each case was considered on its merits.
  MR. HICKS BEACHasked whether the increase in the number of employes in the Post Office was due to a general increase in
  458
  business. He also called attention to the absence of a Sunday post in some places, contending that it should be made universal in country districts or done away with altogether.
  MR. CLAUDE HAYexpressed very great regret at the accusation of having written a letter which was a travesty of the truth, made against the secretary of Lloyd's by the Postmaster-General. Sir Henry Hozier had occupied a distinguished position in the Army, and had rendered great service to the commercial community in the position which he at present held. It was unfortunate that the right hon. Gentleman had been betrayed into making the accusation. He regretted that they had not had the advantage of hearing what the House of Commons thought on re-consideration of a certain measure recently returned to this House from the House of Lords. He was sorry that the right hon. Gentleman had been content to say "Ditto" to his predecessors in regard to the matter of wireless telegraphy. In dealing with this intensely valuable means of communication, not only to the whole commercial and maritime community, but also to the nation in times of war, all that the right hon. Gentleman could do was to say, "Let us go on as we did a few years ago." The Minister in charge of this difficult and important matter should not tie the hands of Parliament, and merely continue the arrangements he found when he entered upon office. He should ask the advice of Parliament as to the steps he should take.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That is a question of legislation. You cannot attack the Postmaster-General with regard to a matter of legislation.
  MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid he was betrayed into a phrase which did not convey his meaning. He wished to say that

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  in the whole course of the debate the right hon. Gentleman had not given a shadow of an indication of any progressive method of administration in respect to wireless telegraphy. If this matter were allowed to lapse under the existing state of things, and unless it was ruthlessly dealt with by the Postmaster-General, the country might be landed in the same mess as former Postmasters-General had landed them in connection with the telephone and telegraphs. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to say definitely what were his intentions, not in the way of legislation, but of administration on the important subject of wireless telegraphy.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that in view of the important conference to take place in the autumn he did not think it his business to lay down at present any new rules. His policy was to prevent any monopoly and to give a free hand at present to the various inventors. He had issued licences to various companies applying for them, and four stations were going to be started by the Post Office to experiment as to the system likely to be the best. He did not withdraw what he had said in reference to an absolutely unprovoked attack on his predecessor being a travesty of the truth.
  MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSONsaid he wished to make a special appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to find employment in his Department for old soldiers after they left the Army. Their training in the Army fitted them well for Post Office work. He pointed out that while the messenger boys' claim should be by no means overlooked, it must be remembered that the soldier who had spent in the service of his country some of the best years of his life, the years when it was most easy for him to establish himself in some regular employment, was apt to be thrown out of employment at an age when employers were disinclined
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  to take him in preference to a younger man. He drew attention to the fact that if it was wanted to have the best class of men in the Army, and to do justice to those who were willing to give their lives for their country, we must not overlook their claims to considerate treatment on their re-entry into civil employment.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.)said that there was a large increase of £10,000 a year in respect of the conveyance of mails by road, and a great decrease in respect of the conveyance of the mails by rail. He asked whether it would not be possible for the Postmaster-General to improve the system of delivery of letters and telegrams in the country. If a telegram was sent from this House he sometimes reached the place to which it was sent before the telegram was delivered.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid that he would give attention to the representations of the hon. Gentleman.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

  PUBLIC TRUSTEE [EXPENSES].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the charge on the Consolidated Fund of such sums as may be required to make good any liabilities incurred by the Public Trustee, or his officers, appointed under any Act of the present session to provide for the appointment of a Public Trustee, and to authorise the payment, out of moneys

  461
  provided by Parliament, of the salaries or remuneration of the Public Trustee and his officers, and of other Expenses incurred by them in pursuance of such Act."—(Mr. Whiteley.)
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House be now adjourned."
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid he desired to appeal once more to the Home Secretary in regard to the sentence passed on Miss Billington, so that an inquiry should be made into all the facts of the case with a view to the remission of the sentence. It appeared that that morning a number of women desired to interview the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and for that purpose they approached his residence, as he understood, in a peaceable manner. The police interfered, and in consequence of the persistence of the women in going into the Chancellor of the Exchequer's house, four of them were arrested. Some of these women were sentenced to a fine of £10, or the alternative of two month's imprisonment. He thought it would be admitted that a sentence of that kind was out of all proportion to the offence committed. He invited the right hon. the Home Secretary to make an inquiry into all the facts of the case with a view to the remission of a part of the sentence. Unless something of that kind were done, the object which the magistrate probably had in view in imposing such a heavy sentence, viz., that of deterring others from pursuing a like line of conduct, would defeat itself. The feeling among people of all opinions and in every part of the country was that the sentence was unduly harsh. If the right hon. Gentleman used the power vested in him with a view to the revision and reduction of the sentence he would
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  be doing an act of justice in itself, and one which, would meet with approval from large numbers of people outside the House.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.)said that at present he was afraid that he could give no other answer than that which he had given at Question time. He had no additional information on the subject. Of course, he would give the qestion all the consideration it deserved. If the hon. Member would follow his suggestion and put down a question for Monday, he would make inquiry into all the circumstances of the case, and endeavour to answer the Question.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give an answer by Monday?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid he would try to give an answer by Monday, but as he was not aware of the circumstances of the case at present, it was possible that he might have to ask the hon. Gentleman to postpone it.
  MR. BYLES (Salford, N.)said he wished to support the appeal of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil. He did not approve of the conduct of the women, and he thought they were injuring their cause, but to send anyone, much more a woman, to prison for two months without that person having committed any moral offence was a discredit to English tribunals and English judicial methods. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would see his way to inquire into the matter.
  MR. MADDISONsaid that while hon. Members held the view that the right hon. Gentleman should inquire

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  into this case, it should be clearly stated that if the ordinary procedure had been carried out in the court for a similar offence there ought to be no difference whatever made. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil had spoken of these "female hooligans" as seeking an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he was simply playing with words. These women had declared over and over again that the Chancellor of the Exchequer "has windows," and they had deliberately urged their comrades to go to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's house. It was a deliberate plan; they had been interviewed in the Press, and again and again they had said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not seen the end of it. Womanhood, indeed, had really been abominably outraged by their conduct. The hon. Member for Merthyr would have served his cause very much better if at an earlier stage he had used his influence to induce these women to act in something like a decent fashion. No real working women would have disgraced themselves in the way these women had done. They were now in their proper place—a police court.
  MR. SHACKLETONsaid he did not associate himself in any way with the action of those women. He thought it was foolish. But all the same he thought the speech of the hon. Member for Burnley was entirely uncalled for. While he agreed that it was not an accurate description of the proceedings to say that the women were merely asking for an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would consider the appeal made by his hon. friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil. Two months imprisonment for such an offence was too heavy a punishment.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he sincerely
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  trusted the Home Secretary would not be influenced by the speech of the hon. Member for Burnley. However much they might wish to deprecate—and he did deprecate them most strongly—the tactics of certain of the representatives of the women's enfranchisement movement, he ventured to say that no man would be prepared to justify the excessive punishment that had been inflicted in this particular case.
  MR. EUGENE WASONsaid that the magistrate ought not to be attacked for having performed his duty. In his opinion, the fine was not excessive. If the fine was paid, these ladies would be released, and he believed that, if they promised not to repeat the offence, the fine would be paid for them.
  MR. SEDDONsaid that the hon. Member for Burnley, in his vicious attack on those women, had been guilty of a misstatement. Two of those women were working women. Miss Kenny was a cotton operative; and the other was a school teacher. He would leave the hon. Member for Burnley to discuss with his constituents whether these women were "female hooligans."
  MR. J. WARDsaid he wished to join in the appeals for clemency in this case. He did not think that a severe sentence would have the desired effect of deterring these women from their ill-advised action. If the Home Secretary were to try and modify, if not to wipe out altogether, the punishment that had been passed in this case, he believed it would have much better results than the sentence that had been imposed.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned at Twenty-two minutes after Eleven o'clock.

Preamble
The Lord Wigan (E. Crawford) took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: Buckhaven, Methill, Innerleven Burgh Extension.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [H.L.]. Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Dowlais Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments.
Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill. Committed.
Lancashire Electric Power Bill. Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
St. Pancras Electricity Bill; Tottenham and Edmonton Gas Bill; Metropolitan District Railway Bill. Committed.
Kettering Water Bill. Committed for Monday next.
Middlesex County Council (General Powers) Bill; North West London Railway Bill; Bristol Corporation Bill. Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas) Bill. Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Committed to a Committee of the Whole House Tomorrow.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  COLONIES: ANNUAL.
  No. 484. Bermuda (Report for 1905).
  No. 485. Hong Kong (Report for 1905).

  TRADE REPORTS—ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3642. China (Chinkiang).
  No. 3643. United States (Hawaii).
  No. 3644. Spain (Malaga).
  No. 3645. France (Society Islands).
  No. 3646. Japan (North Formosa).
  No. 3647. Italy (Lombardy).
  Presented (by Command) and ordered to lie on the Table.

  GREEWICH HOSPITAL AND TRAVERS FOUNDATION.
  Statement of the estimated income and expenditure of Greenwich Hospital and of Travers' Foundation, for the year 1906–07.
  CIVIL LIST PENSIONS.
  List of all pensions granted during the year ended March 31st, 1906, and payable under the provisions of section 9(1) of the Civil List Act, 1901.
  SUPERANNUATION ACT.
  Treasury Minute, dated June 16th, 1906, respecting the addition of years to be assigned for pensions purposes to certain offices under the Board of Education.
  Finance accounts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, for the financial year ended March 31st, 1906.

  UNEMPLOYED WORKMEN ACT, 1905.
  Regulations made by the Local Government Board under the Act, as to the form of financial statement of distress committees having the powers of a central body established under the Act.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of maintenance of existing religious education in Church of

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  England schools:—Of ratepayers in Hardwicke—Ten Drayton. Of parents of children attending school at Bassing-bourne.
  Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  POLICE (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.

FINANCE BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the day for Second Reading read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Ripon.)
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, it is not my intention to detain your Lordships at any length with observations upon the Second Reading of this Bill, because in the first place, I am cognisant of the constitutional limitations which govern our action in this matter, and in the second place, I have no desire whatever to oppose the Second Reading of the Budget Bill of the year. It was admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in introducing the Budget that it was in the nature of a provisional financial arrangement, and that we must wait until next year for the complete financial policy of His Majesty's Government. That was a very proper and natural suggestion, and I do not in the least complain of it; but precisely on that account I desire to make some observations on one particular point of the financial arrangements of the country—namely, the present position of the income-tax.
The estimated product of the income-tax for the present year is £31,250,000, at the rate of a shilling in the pound. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made some very forcible and true observations on the present position of the income-tax. He said—
"An income-tax at a uniform rate of a shilling in the pound in time of peace is impossible to justify and difficult to defend. It is a burden upon the trade of the country, which, in the long run, affects not only profits but wages; and it presses with extreme and peculiar severity on that large class of the community with incomes from £700 to £2,000 a year, who pay it in addition to their full
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share of taxation on articles of consumption; and it tends to destroy, or, at any rate, to contract a most readily available reserve on which the State can draw in a sudden and unforeseen emergency."
I wish entirely to associate myself with those sentiments. When I had the the honour to be Chancellor of the Exchequer I did my best to carry out those views. When at the commencement of the South African war, I had to look about for increased sources of taxation, besides increasing the income-tax, and besides adding to the indirect taxation upon alcohol, tea, and tobacco, I induced Parliament to assent to three new and important indirect taxes—the duties on sugar, corn and coal. Thus I endeavoured to divide fairly the cost of the war between the comparatively small class of the community liable to direct taxation through the income-tax, and the people as a whole. But I find no attempt whatever on the part of the present Government to carry into effect the wholesome doctrine laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to the income-tax.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that to reduce the income-tax by a penny would cost him £2,600,000, and that the means at his disposal were insufficient for the purpose. The right hon. Gentleman budgeted for a surplus of £3,074,000; and in my belief it would have been perfectly possible for him, even if he had considered it necessary, as he did consider it necessary, to add £500,000 to the unprecedented amount which this year will go to the repayment of debt, to reduce the income-tax by a penny, because the loss to the revenue by such a reduction would not amount in the first year to the total yield of a penny in one year. But instead of reducing the income-tax, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to reduce the tea duty by a penny in the pound, and to abolish the coal tax as from November 1st. As to reduction of the tea duty, I would only say that no one for many years has touched the tea duty by less than twopence in the pound, and for the simple reason that the poor consumers of tea, upon whom the tea duty falls infinitely more heavily than upon the larger consumers, are only able to buy their tea in such small quantities that a reduction by a penny can hardly by any I possibility reach them.

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As to the coal duty, I have never argued that it was free from objections. Every tax has its objections; and there were objections, not merely theoretical, to imposing an export duty on any article of production in this country. But the result of the coal duty has not been what its most vigorous opponents prophesied at the time of its imposition. They said that the imposition of 1s. duty would lead to the closing of mines in this country, and would practically lead to many ships being deprived of outward cargoes altogether, and therefore being laid up. The picture drawn of the terrible state to which some parts of England and Scotland would be reduced owing to the imposition of the coal duty was a very lurid one indeed. But what has happened? There has been, I believe, and I think it fair to state it, some reduction in our exports of medium quality coal to the markets of North Europe; but, with regard to our general export of coal, that has continued to increase since the imposition of the duty, though not at so great a rate as before.
Considering that the duty produced £2,000,000 a year, and that the effects of it did not bear out the prophecies that had been made, I must say I believe it would be extremely difficult for any Chancellor of the Exchequer to discover any indirect tax which would produce more to the revenue at less cost to the industry of this country. But that is not all. In some respects the repeal of that duty will be a loss to this country. An instance has come to my knowledge in which a London company, which has to purchase large quantities of Welsh smokeless coal, directly the announcement of the repeal of the coal duty was made had notice from the contractors that in any renewed contract a shilling a ton more would be charged for the coal. And why? Because the contractors expected that by the repeal of this tax the foreign demand for this class of coal would be so much increased that the price might be safely raised to the home consumers.
I am old fashioned enough, in spite of the Report of the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies, to believe that it is not to the interest of this country to encourage the export of smokeless Welsh coal, which is of such enormous value to
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the Navy as well as to the industry of this country. But I entirely admit that both in this matter and in the reduction of the tea duty the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer commended themselves generally to the House of Commons. It is possible that if instead of making these proposals the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed to reduce the income-tax, he would not have had the assent of the present House of Commons. But the important point is this—that having £3,000,000 to deal with, and being able thereby to reduce a shilling income-tax by a penny, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has found it necessary instead to reduce taxation on tea and coal, which I think no one can say pressed really hardly on the people.
What sort of hope does that give to the income-tax payer, to whose condition the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred with so much sympathy, of any reduction on the present rate at any future time? Of course, it may be said that it is hoped by His Majesty's present Government that there will be a material reduction in the expenditure of the country in future years. I can conceive one quarter in which there might be a considerable reduction. The Chancellor of the Exchequer quoted some remarkable figures in his Budget speech with respect to the increase in recent years of the cost of the Army and Navy. I will quote them again, as I believe that the attention of the country cannot be too much directed to the remarkable nature of these figures. The right hon. Gentleman said that in the year 1896–97 the Army, the numbers of which were voted at 156,000 men, cost £18,270,000 in the Estimates, whereas in 1906–7 the numbers of men voted were 204,000 and the cost £29,800,000 showing an increase of 30 per cent, in the men and of 63 per cent, in their cost. Those are very remarkable figures, and they are even more remarkable when compared with the Navy. The numbers of men voted for the Navy in this year, as compared with 1896–97, have increased by 41 per cent., but the cost has only increased 43 per cent. Does not that give us—I am bound to say it gives me—a prima facie ground for believing that there must be great waste in our Army expenditure, which is susceptible of material reduction without loss to the efficiency of our Army?

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But what is there to be said on the other side? Supposing His Majesty's present Government are able materially to reduce the Army Estimates without injuring the efficiency of the Army, there must certainly in the future be an increase under the head of works both in the Army and in the Navy Estimates if they carry out the policy which they have declared, and on which, I hope I may add without offence, they are very much disposed to plume themselves. In 1895 Lord Rosebery's Government initiated the policy of providing for the charges of military and naval works by a system of loans for a term not exceeding thirty years. That policy was continued by the late Government, and the total addition to the debt incurred by that policy is considerable. But the policy was necessary. Necessary works had been allowed to fall behind through mistaken ideas of economy, and the increase in the size of our ships, the increase in the number of soldiers and sailors, necessitated exceptional expenditure in providing new dockyards in different parts of the world, in barracks, hospitals, training grounds for soldiers, and in permanent works, which in our judgment was more fairly spread over a period of thirty years than imposed on the taxpayers of the present day. There is no doubt that the system has its faults, for probably there have been instances in which it led to unnecessary expenditure on ill-considered schemes and money has been wasted in that way. But if you abandon it there is this danger on the other side, that for the sake of economy and in order to diminish the Army and Navy Estimates of the year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day will reduce the item of works in his Estimates to a point which is inconsistent with the efficient maintenance of the Army and Navy. That was done in previous years, and I hope that it will not be done again. But if it is not done, the item of Works in the Army and Navy Estimates will show a considerable increase in future years.
But can anyone who has watched the action of the House of Commons throughout this session believe that it will be possible for any Government, however strong their desire for economy, to make any very great reduction in the expenditure of the country? Resolutions have been passed one after another
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in the present House of Commons in favour of adding largely to the expenditure on elementary education, which has already increased 60 per cent. in the last ten years, by providing meals for hungry children; in favour of imposing the cost of elections on the public, of providing payment for Members of Parliament; of providing employment for those who call themselves "unemployed;" of providing better housing accommodation for the poor; and finally of giving pensions to all persons indiscriminately over the age of sixty-five; and also there is a constant pressure on the Government largely to increase the pay and other advantages enjoyed by those who are employed in the public service.
All these proposals together would involve an enormous increase in expenditure. How have they been met by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? They have been met with great sympathy, with speeches to the effect that he would be glad to accede to the demands, but he had no money. But what is the first thing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does? Having a surplus of £3,000,000, he abolishes an equivalent amount of taxation. I wish to credit the House of Commons and the Government in accepting resolutions of this kind with a sincere desire to carry them out, but this desire is surely somewhat inconsistent with the repeal of £3,000,000 a year of taxation, which, as far as I know, has not pressed, with any real hardship on any one. I am confident, however, that this plea of there being no money will not last much longer, and that when the Gentlemen who are in favour of this increase of expenditure make these proposals again they will not be satisfied with such an answer, but will require that means shall in some way or other be provided by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to meet them. Well, my Lords, what does this mean? Is there any form of indirect taxation to which a Chancellor of the Exchequer, representing the present Government, could resort with a view to adding to the revenue of the country and in order to provide for the increase in expenditure suggested? Of course, His Majesty's present Government cannot adopt the proposals of the Tariff Reform League for levying duties on all manufactured and partly manufactured imported goods. I should entirely agree with them in objecting to any such

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proposals, because I believe that any reasonable study of the past would show that the result of duties of the kind would be infinitely more injurious to the trade and industry of the country than it would be beneficial in the majority of cases to the Exchequer. His Majesty's Government are debarred by their own opinions from any course of that sort. They have repealed the taxes to which I have referred. Is there any other indirect tax which it is possible for them to impose in their place. I do not believe that there is one. This means, therefore, that the present expenditure of the country, and any increase of expenditure that may be required on account of what I have mentioned, will have to be provided by the direct taxpayer—in other words, by the payers of the income-tax.
I may be told that a Committee has been appointed by the House of Commons to inquire into the present incidence of the income-tax, and whether it is possible to introduce any graduated system by which it would press less severely on smaller incomes—I suppose between £700 and £2,000 a year—and more upon the wealthier classes. Personally I am glad that the inquiry has been instituted. I have no objection on principle to graduation. We have accepted it in this country for many years in the house duty, and more lately in the estate duty. But I believe that the practicability of increasing the revenue by graduating the income-tax is a very doubtful matter indeed. I do not know how it can be done unless you are to single out through the officials of the Inland Revenue persons who might be suspected of having more than the limit of income above which you propose to impose a higher rate of taxation, require them to return the total amount of their income, and levy an additional income-tax upon them. I am sure that nobody who has the least acquaintance with the working of the income-tax would desire to see its mainstay removed—namely, the payment of the income-tax at its source. Supposing that such an additional tax were levied, there would be even a greater inducement than now exists, in schedule D of the income-tax, to make an incorrect statement of the total income. There would be, I believe, so many cases of incorrect statements of the
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kind on the part of persons who might be liable to the additional tax that its yield would be very small, and the Exchequer would run the risk of a very grave loss on the existing sources of revenue, because many taxpayers, thinking an additional tax unjust, would endeavour to avail themselves of all kinds of means to receive, in a way that the Inland Revenue, could not ascertain incomes from foreign dividends or foreign business, and matters of that kind, incomes which are now paid through bankers in London who deduct the income-tax before the dividends or profits are paid. I do not anticipate, therefore, that, even supposing this Committee should report that it would be possible in some way or other to graduate the income-tax and that the Government should adopt some proposal of the kind next year, the increase of the yield on the present income-tax would come to any very large amount.
I have been referring to the matter merely so far as it affects the burden on the income-tax payers in time of peace; but I believe there is a more serious and a more important side to the question, as it affects the resources of the country in time of war. When I was Chancellor of the Exchequer, during the South African war I had to raise a large increase of revenue to provide for the war charges. I turned, like all my predecessors, in the first place to the income-tax, which at the beginning of the war, stood at 8d. in the £. I raised it until in one year it reached 1s. 3d. in the £. But the income-tax now stands at 1s. in the £. Supposing it unfortunately happened that next year we were involved—and nobody can tell when this may happen—in some serious and costly war, the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day would start with an income tax of 1s. in the £. He would be deprived of no less than £10,000,000 a year which was available to me for war purposes, and which is now being dissipated in time of peace.
I wish I could impress sufficiently on the House and on His Majesty's Government how seriously I regard this diminution of the necessary resources of the country in the event of a possible war. You may invent, as I had to invent, other kinds of taxation, but there is no tax which is so essentially useful in

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time of war as the income-tax. There is no other conceivable tax which can be raised and which can be lowered again without the smallest injurious effect on trade, commerce, and industry; and looking to the financial condition of the country, anything which deprives us of the full yield of that tax for meeting the cost of war is to my mind a very serious financial danger.
I thank your Lordships for the patience with which you have listened to my observations. I will conclude by saying that I make these criticisms in no hostile spirit to the Budget of this year or to His Majesty's Government. What I do desire is that in that large consideration which they have promised of the finances of the country this important fact should not be lost sight of—that an income-tax of 1s. in the £ is hard on the income-tax payers, most of whom are comparatively poor men, and in time of peace is utterly indefensible, as depriving us of necessary resources in time of war.
LORD WELBY: My Lords, I have listened with very great attention to the speech that has just been delivered by the noble Viscount, and with a very largo part of his observations, if I may venture to say so without presumption, I agree I cannot help regretting, however, that the noble Viscount devoted some part of his speech to a defence of the coal duty. The noble Viscount, when he was proposing the tax, guarded himself by saying that care must be taken in aiming at revenue not to sacrifice trade. I cannot help thinking that the experience we have had of the working of the coal tax shows that we have endangered trade in seeking revenue from that source.
It appears to me that a duty of this kind must have one of two results—either it must add to the price and so far handicap the English trader, who is exposed to very great competition both from Germany and America, or it must diminish the productiveness of the trade, and to that extent diminish the fund from which the wages of the labourers employed are met. I lay stress upon this last point because of the very large proportion labour occupies in the cost of the production of a ton of coal. It is, I believe, admitted that the labour in-
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volved in the production of a ton of coal represents 80 per cent, of the whole cost. If that is the case, it appears to me that the imposition of any duty which has the effect of restricting either the export of our coal or the output, and thereby diminishing the labour employed, is a very serious matter, and I venture to think that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, in seeking revenue, to a great extent endangered trade. I gathered that the noble Viscount did not object very greatly to the course that has been taken. Indeed, it would be somewhat hard for noble Lords opposite to do so seeing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the late Government had announced his intention of giving up this duty. On both sides of politics this duty was regarded as one of the first to be surrendered.
I have much sympathy with the noble Viscount when he speaks of the difficult position in which we stand with regard to taxation. I hope that before any preconceived doctrine is laid down that direct taxation has a prior claim upon the Government, care will be be taken to review the whole position of the taxpayer. I am constantly struck with the fact that an enormous amount of property is in the hands of a very small number of people. For instance, if we look at the Inland Revenue returns we see that something like 4,000 people in a short time died leaving £300,000,000 of property. Taking into consideration the deductions which are now made from the lower incomes, has a case been made out for a reduction of income-tax in preference to a reduction on those articles of consumption the tax on which weighs so heavily on the wage-earning classes?
I do not wish to offer any criticism upon the action taken this year by His Majesty's Government. It is clear that it would be impossible for a Government coming into power in the month of December to effect any great change in our financial system in their first year. The difficulty of ascertaining the real facts of the financial situation is at once a bar to any effective action being taken by a Government in the first year. If I might express a pious opinion, I should have been very glad if His Majesty's Government had seen their way not to

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reduce taxation this year, but to devote the money which they would then have had in hand to the reduction of debt, so that next year, when they had thoroughly studied the financial situation, they might have been in a stronger position to carry out important financial reforms. I remember that, in the year 1873, Mr Gladstone devoted a large surplus to paying off the Alabama debt instead of reducing taxation, and thereby he secured in the following year a revenue which gave an opportunity, which I suppose has never since been enjoyed by a Chancellor of the Exchequer, of carrying out large and important financial reforms on a scale in ordinary years impossible. But in the case of a new Government having just taken office, I quite admit that that is a policy which they could hardly be expected to follow. I think by next year the Government ought to have fully considered the situation and be in a position to give effect to some of the large financial measures which are before the country.
I remember a conversation I once had with the late Lord Northbrook, a statesman of very great practical knowledge and at the same time one of the most prudent financiers. From his long experience at the War Office and the Admiralty, Lord Northbrook had a full sense of our responsibilities in the matter of defence, and his general training led him to know how dangerous it was to diminish or endanger our resources in time of war. He told me that he had before him at one time several recommendations from his expert advisers regarding fortification in India. He told me that the demand was large, and he referred it back to them in order that they might endeavour to reduce it and bring it more within the limits which he thought they could afford. They were not able to present a result such as he desired, and he then said that he could not agree to it. In a question of this kind there were, he pointed out, two dangers—the danger of not being provided with a sufficient military force, and the greater danger of putting the finances of India out of gear; and for the moment he felt that he must give the preference to establishing and maintaining a sound financial condition in India. I was very much struck by the manner in which he told me that, and I think it
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is important that this should be borne in mind in dealing with this question. I venture to hope that His Majesty's Government will accept the canon which Lord Northbrook then laid down.
The noble Viscount referred to the position in which we were in 1899. In the whole course of our experience there has hardly been a more favourable year, financially speaking, then 1899. For years we had been reducing the taxation of the country. We had also been reducing the Debt, and our Consols stood higher than ever before. Not only had the Debt been very largely decreased in consequence of the action of Chancellors of the Exchequer of both Parties, but owing to one of the most difficult and at the same time successful measures which. I remember during my career at the Treasury—namely, the conversion of the Debt by my noble friend Lord Goschen—the charge of the Debt had immensely decreased. Never before in our history were we in such a favourable position to face the heavy cost of war as in 1899, owing to the wise finance of both Parties, in the State for many years previously.
What is the position in which we find ourselves at the present moment? The reduction of the Debt, which had amounted to ƣ150,000,000 in the space of thirty years, has been obliterated, and our Debt stands now at a higher figure than, or at as high a figure as, it has stood since since 1870. The sum of ƣ23,000,000 has been added to our taxation, and on every side we see symptoms of excessive expenditure. One result has been that whereas in 1899 Consols stood at 110, or, perhaps at 109, allowing for the fact that Consols were bearing for a year or two a quarter per cent, additional interest, they are now at eighty-nine or ninety.
The country possesses two great instruments for employment in the case of such an emergency as war. The first is its defensive forces, and the second its financial position. It is difficult, in my opinion, to say which is the more important. But I am afraid that should the emergency of war now arise the country would not be able to start from the sound condition of finance from which it was able to start at the outbreak of the South African war. The position is

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therefore a very grave one, and I hope that during the present year His Majesty's Government will be able to give such consideration to the national finances as will restore them to a sound basis. In this connection I would again quote the late Lord Northbrook, who declared that if he must run some risk he would rather run the risk of not accepting some of the recommendations of his expert advisers than endanger the stability of Indian finance. It ought to be the canon of every Chancellor of the Exchequer that under no circumstances will he endanger the stability of English finances.
The noble Viscount held out very little hope of reduction of expenditure in the future. Indeed, he apprehended rather an increase. If the House of Commons is bent not only on maintaining the present scale of expenditure but on listening to every demand that is made upon it for fresh expenditure, I fear that the present unsound condition of the national finances will not be removed, and that if the present strain is long continued the country will be in a most unfavourable position to meet an emergency.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I shall trouble your Lordships with only a few observations. I can associate myself entirely with the principles laid down by my noble friend Lord St. Aldwyn, and I think that he has rendered a great service by placing before your Lordships his review of the financial situation. There is one remark which I would like to add in consequence of what has just fallen from my noble friend Lord Welby. The noble Lord quoted, naturally with admiration and approval, the doctrines laid down by Lord Northbrook, but I venture to think that such a question cannot be decided by any general principle. It must depend entirely upon the circumstances of each successive phase of European and other politics.
If there arose an emergency in which the country were called upon to act suddenly, there might be a frightful disaster if we were not prepared sufficiently with our naval and military defences, and certainly it would be a greater disaster than a disarrangement of our finances. It is essential, therefore, to look around, to consider the risks,
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in order to judge of the present necessity for preparedness. If there is one fact that must be borne in mind, a fact of supreme importance, it is that in the most modern wars they who strike first and hardest are most likely to win. I agree with Lord St. Aldwyn that there may possibly be room for considerable reduction in the Army expenditure, though I cannot form a judgment upon it, because my experience of the Navy shows how exceedingly difficult it is for those who are not acquainted with the inner working of the establishment to judge upon general principles as to whether there is extravagance or not.
But with regard to the Navy, you must take into consideration the new developments of foreign navies. Navies have been developed by three nations which before counted far less in any review of naval power. Therefore the public ought not to take it for granted that because the present cost of the Navy is much larger than it was ten years ago, there is now an opportunity for reduction in naval expenditure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his able speech in the other House quoted comparative figures in relation to the increase in expenditure and said, "These facts speak for themselves." That is just what they do not do. The facts do not speak for themselves. If a battleship that formerly cost £750,000 now costs £1,500,000, it is idle to charge the Admiralty with extravagance because they have spent £500,000 more upon the battleship. The additional £500,000 spent on the ship is now absolutely necessary.
I think the public will delude itself, and the Radical Party will delude itself, if it thinks the Navy offers any wide scope for economy in the coming years. Those who have read the political programme of other countries this year must see that we live in times when a reduction in our defensive forces would be one of the greatest mistakes of which the country could be guilty. I therefore offer these few words, not of warning, but of caution, that the hopes of those who so much desire a reduction in expenditure are, so far as the Navy is concerned, doomed to disappointment.
LORD JOICEY: My Lords, I have some hesitation in intervening in this

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debate after the speeches to which we have listened from noble Lords who are recognised throughout the country as great financial experts. But, though I have not had the experience that the noble Lords who have spoken enjoy, I have been largely concerned in great financial operations of different kinds. I cannot agree with the noble Viscount who spoke first that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was wrong in remitting the coal duty. My views are pretty well known on that subject, and I have as large an experience of the effect of that duty upon the general trade of the country as anyone. Your Lordships must not forget that this question was gone into very carefully by a Commission appointed by the late Government, and that that Commission decided clearly and distinctly that the duty was a very serious injury to the trade of the country and ought to be abolished at the first opportunity.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: Will the noble Lord quote the words of the Report? I do not recollect that.
LORD JOICEY: I cannot quote the words, but that was the spirit of the whole Report. I know that many people are under the impression that the coal duty was not paid by this country, but by the consumers of coal abroad. But as the frontier that was taxed was the frontier between this country and the foreign consumer only, and all other countries which produced coal were open without the tax, it was quite impossible to make the consumer pay the tax. I have been asked more than once how it was that the consumer in this country paid the tea duty, and yet the consumer abroad did not pay the coal duty. Surely the answer to that is obvious. If a tax were put upon tea coming into this country by the east coast, and the whole of the west coast were left entirely free from duty, could anyone argue for a moment that the tax would be paid by the consumer?
The coal tax has now gone. It was based, in my judgment, on a wrong principle. I do not believe in any export tax. I think it is always in restraint of trade, and I hope this country will never again be so
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foolish as to put a tax on anything exported from this country. I am bound to say that with much that fell from the noble Viscount I entirely agree. The great increase in the expenditure of this country got its impetus during the South African War, and we are now feeling the effects of that enormous expenditure, and it will be many years before we shall be able to relieve ourselves from them. I agree with the noble Viscount that the income-tax is a great advantage in time of war. It is a tax which can be very easily levied and collected, and a huge sum can be secured in that way in a very short time. But I cannot take quite the same alarming view as the noble Viscount. While our taxation in this country is increasing to a serious extent our wealth and our population are increasing certainly at the same ratio, and I do not think, therefore, that we need be unnecessarily alarmed, even if the income-tax should stand at 1s. in the £.
What may take place after the Committee which has been appointed by the present Government to deal with this question has reported I am unable to say. At the same time, I do not think it will be any serious burden upon people who have large incomes if they have to pay a larger proportion to the Exchequer than they are paying at the present time. I do not think that there are any men with huge incomes who would not willingly pay at all events their fair share to maintain the services of the country. With regard to the Navy and Army, there is no doubt that the country fully believes in their being kept up to the highest point of efficiency. So far as I have been able to gather the feeling of the country, I have never found a man, I have certainly never found any body of men, in favour of reducing the efficiency of the Navy. With regard to the allusion made by the noble Viscount opposite to the desire of certain Radicals to get the expenditure on the Navy reduced, I am bound to say that so far as I have had experience of the working classes, in particular in the north of England, I have always found them thoroughly in favour of maintaining the Navy at the highest point of efficiency, and if further money should be required for that purpose I think it would be forthcoming, and would be given freely

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by the country if the Government could show that it was absolutely necessary.
As to the Army, certain promises have been held out of a reduction of expenditure. I think it quite possible that there may be means of reducing expenditure on the Army without impairing its efficiency; but if any reduction should be proposed which, in my judgment, would interfere with the efficiency of the Army, I should certainly feel it my duty to oppose it, because I think the vast interests we have to protect demand that we should have both services as efficient as they can be rendered. I congratulate the Government on having got their Budget through without any serious opposition in another place, and I account for it to a large extent by the fact that, as has been stated, this is the Budget of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. Surely, if it were his own child he could not very well disown and attack it. When the present Chancellor of the Exchequer comes to deal with the financial affairs of the country we shall probably see great changes, and I hope they will be such changes as will conduce to the raising of money easily for the services of the country.
THK LORD PRIVY SEAL (The MARQUESS of RIPON): My Lords, we have had a very important and interesting discussion, and those who have addressed your Lordships have spoken from various points of view, and with great authority. We all listened, I am sure, with interest to the speech of the noble Viscount opposite, Lord St. Aldwyn, who gave us the result of his long experience. I am not able to agree with all the conclusions at which the noble Viscount arrived, but at the same time every one in this House will recognise that he spoke only from the results of his own experience, which is so great and to which we owe so much respect, and that he did not do so from any Party considerations whatever.
There was a great deal which fell from the noble Viscount with respect to the income-tax with which I imagine most of us will agree, and it is well that he should have availed himself of this opportunity to call attention to the value and importance of the income-tax and to its special position in our system of finance. But, my Lords, I do not think that it would have been possible for my right
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hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have based his financial arrangements this year solely upon a reduction of the income-tax. I do not know where he was to have found the means of doing anything else if he had taken a penny off the income-tax. The noble Viscount made a slight error, I think, in the figures he quoted. He spoke of my right hon. friend as having budgeted for a surplus of £3,704,000.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: No, £3,074,000.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: Then I did not hear the noble Viscount correctly.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: A reduction of the income-tax would have been possible, but no other taxes could have been reduced.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I do not think that was a possible course for my right hon. friend to have taken. As the noble Viscount knows, very important questions connected with the structure and the mode of raising the income-tax are now under consideration. Those questions have been referred to a Committee. They cover a very wide range. They relate to that difficult question of graduation to which the noble Viscount alluded. They relate also to the problem of the difference between permanent and temporary incomes, a question which I remember was settled in the year 1853 for at least a generation by the great speech of Mr. Gladstone, one of the most remarkable efforts that was ever made by any Chancellor of the Exchequer in the House of Commons. Those questions are under consideration. I do not put that forward as a conclusive reason, but I think it is a reason of considerable weight, against having made a reduction of the income-tax the sole financial arrangement of the year.
The noble Viscount touched upon the question of the coal tax, but I do not propose to delay your Lordships long upon that matter. The noble Lords behind me who have spoken have touched upon some of the objections which can be raised to that tax. I venture to think it has not been a successful tax. The noble Viscount seemed to think that the quotation given by my noble friend.

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behind me from the Report of the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies was incorrect. In one respect I must admit that it was, inasmuch as the Report of the Commission contains the facts which were collected and the results at which they arrived, but does not draw any conclusion. But, on the other hand, the Report tells us that the witnesses generally were of opinion that the maintenance of a large coal export trade is of supreme importance to the country and essential to the prosperity of the coal-producing districts. On page 23 of the Report it is stated that—
"It is difficult to resist the contention that the tax had some effect in reducing the tonnage exported in the year 1901, although it is probable that the high level of prices, which was still maintained, and the declining condition of trade, both at home and abroad, had some influence on the figures. It will be seen that the total output of coal in 1901 in the United Kingdom was less by 6,000,000 tons than in 1900, but it should be noted that the home consumption in 1901 was 5,500,000 tons less than it was in 1900. It should not be overlooked that the coal-exporter has had the advantage of much lower export freights for coal in 1901 and subsequently than prevailed in 1900, and this must have mitigated the effect of the tax to a large extent."
All this tends to show, together with other portions of the Report, that the tax has interfered with trade, and I venture to think there is clear evidence in this Report that it has hampered the operation of our trade in France, Belgium, and Holland, and that in those countries German coal has had a tendency to take the place of British coal. From the facts contained in the Report we find that wages and profits have had a tendency to decline. I think these are good grounds for repealing the tax. Certainly we know that it was the intended policy of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer to repeal the coal tax. Therefore, my right hon. friend cannot be charged with taking a step the necessity of which had not already forced itself upon the minds of those who at the time were responsible for the finances of the country. I need not dwell on that subject. All I say is, that as far as the facts are known to me, I believe the coal tax to have acted in a manner injurious and hampering to our interests, and I think it was one of the first taxes marked for repeal.
The noble Viscount seems very much afraid of what may be done by the House
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of Commons in regard to the increase of taxes. That is a complaint which ever since I first entered Parliament I have heard made by every Chancellor of the Exchequer and ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, and there have been but few men who have stood up to demands of that kind in the way in which Mr. Gladstone did. I quite admit that each demand for money for this purpose or for that must be considered not only upon its abstract merits but in connection with the financial condition of the country, and I am quite sure that that is the course which my right hon. friend will take. Large reductions of expenditure, if they are made, must be made upon the large items, while at the same time a careful Chancellor of the Exchequer would always keep his eye upon small items also. The noble Viscount pointed out with great force the startling difference between the rate of expenditure on the Army and the rate on the Navy. I agree with the noble Viscount in thinking that that is a fact which needs most careful consideration, and it is receiving that consideration from His Majesty's Government.
Your Lordships are aware, from what has been said before in this House, that the Secretary of State for War is considering the whole of our military arrangements very carefully and deliberately. I do not think your Lordships will be inclined to condemn him for taking his time over that. We have had too many successive experiments made with the Army during the last few years, and it is very desirable that any further changes should be made with the utmost deliberation. I have every reason to believe that my right hon. friend Mr. Haldane will find it within his power to reduce the Army expenditure in an effective manner, although it is not possible for me at the present moment to make any statement upon that subject. I believe it is probable that an opportunity will be taken by the Secretary of State to make some statement with regard to it in some of the discussions on the Estimates before the end of the session.
I do not know that I need detain your Lordships longer. Unlike the noble Lords who have addressed you, I do not profess to be an expert on this subject.

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I can only say, however, that I am unable to agree that the one thing to have done was to reduce the income tax. My noble friend Lord Welby seemed to think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have done better if he had made no reduction of taxation at all. That, my Lords, is a counsel of perfection, and I do not think my noble friend himself believes that it would have been advisable or possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have taken that course. Neither do I think that it would have been possible for him in the present state of public opinion, in the face of a Parliament like the present, to have reduced the income tax and nothing else. Therefore, he has dealt with two taxes—the coal tax, which was marked especially for removal, and the tea duty, the reduction of which will afford relief—limited relief, I agree—to the people of this country in one of the most important articles of consumption. The noble Viscount said he did not think that reduction would reach the people.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: The poorest of the people.
THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: The information with which I have been furnished from the financial departments leads me to think that it has had that effect, if not always in the reduction in price, in some cases in the improvement of the quality. The statement made by the noble Viscount at the commencement of his speech really represents the truth of the present position. He said this was a provisional Budget. He accepted it as a provisional Budget. A provisional Budget it is. It is not to be taken as indicating what is likely to be the financial policy of His Majesty's Government in coming years. It is a provisional Budget dealing with the finances as they were left to us by our predecessors, dealing with the Estimates of expenditure which we received from them, and it is intended solely for the purpose of making such reduction—limited, I quite agree—in taxation as was possible in the circumstances in which we took office.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Standing Order No. XXXIX. dispensed with. Bill read 3a, and passed.

RESERVE FORCES BILL.
Reports of Amendments received.
Amendments moved—
"In page 1, line 7, after the word 'any' to insert the words 'British Protectorate or in any'; in line 9, after 'any' to insert the words 'British Protectorate or in any'; and in lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words 'a self-governing colony' and to insert the words 'in a colony possessing responsible government.'"—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to. Bill to be read 3a To-morrow, and to be printed as amended. [No. 130.]

INDIAN RAILWAYS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, this is a small Departmental Bill about which I do not think there can be any controversy. The original Railways Act of 1894 enables the Indian railway companies, upon certain conditions, to pay interest on their share capital out of capital during construction. By Section 9 of that Act the duration of it extended only to December 31st, 1905, or to the end of the then next ensuing session of Parliament and no longer, unless Parliament should otherwise determine. It appears desirable to make this Act permanent, and the Bill now before your Lordships has been drawn up with that object. I beg to move that it be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

GREENWICH OBSERVATORY.
LORD ELLENBOROUGHrose, in accordance with notice, to call attention to the electrical works that the London County Council have lately built about half a mile from the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, and to point out that the presumed position of every ship when at

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sea, and out of sight of land, is based upon a comparsion of the results of observations taken by her officers, and other observations taken years previously by astronomers at the Royal Observatory, and that the positions of all places shown on British and American maps and charts, whether European, Indian, or Colonial, and also on most foreign maps and charts, are also dependent upon observations taken at Greenwich; that at a conference of delegates from the principal countries in the world, twenty-seven in number, held at Washington in October, 1884, for the purpose of fixing on a meridian proper to be employed as a common zero of longitude, twenty-two representatives voted in favour of adopting the meridian passing through the centre of the transit instrument at the Observatory at Greenwich as the initial meridian for longitude, and that, in consequence of this, nearly all nations of importance now use Greenwich time as a Standard or Universal time; that if a single ship is lost in consequence of confusion being introduced into longitudes its value might well be treble that of these new electrical works; that during the last two hundred and thirty years many millions of observations connected with cartography and astronomy have been made at the Observatory and other places, the value of which largely depends upon the fixity of the Royal Observatory as a reference point; and to call attention to the action of the London County Council in building furnaces and tall chimneys nearly due north of the Observatory, and in using engines which cause some of the astronomical instruments to vibrate in such a manner as to destroy all possibility of accurate observation; and to ask the Government if they will apply to Parliament for power to prevent the Royal Observatory from being shaken or smoked out, either at present or any future time.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, if the London County Council, encouraged by the success of their line of river steamers, launch out into ocean traffic, they will soon learn from their sea-going captains that it will be necessary to supply their ships with chronometers, whose error on Greenwich mean time is always known. The first thing that a seaman has to do when he wishes to find his ship's position when out of sight of
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land is to take the angular height of one or more heavenly bodies with a sextant. The next thing he does is to find the time that it was at Greenwich when he took his observations. This is done by means of a chronometer. This process is called getting a Greenwich date. It is a preliminary to working almost every class of observation at sea, whether for the purpose of ascertaining the position of a ship or for finding the error of a compass.
When he has obtained his Greenwich date, he proceeds to calculate how far he is east or west of Greenwich and how far he is north or south of the equator. This he does by comparing the results of observations made years previously at Greenwich, with those he has just made himself. If he or Greenwich make a mistake the ship may be lost with all hands. If out of the whole of the commerce of the globe a single ship is lost, her value might well amount to three times that of the Greenwich electrical works, to say nothing of her crew, who, after all, count as something. The London County Council have as yet only put up 20,000 horse-power at Greenwich. Well, there are many ships afloat that carry more than that. In the Royal Navy alone there are more than twenty-five such ships.
In 1884 what had been the general practice was made the rule, and the meridian passing through the centre of the transit instrument at Greenwich was selected as the common zero of longitude for the whole world, and the centre of that instrument became the chief reference point in universal geography. The railways and telegraphs in America and many other countries are all dependent on Greenwich time. For instance, Inter-Colonial time, that is, Nova Scotia time, is four hours slow on Greenwich. Eastern time is five hours slow, Central time is six hours slow, Mountain time is seven hours slow, and Pacific time is eight hours slow on Greenwich. There is also Mid-Europe time, one hour fast, Eastern Europe, and South African time, two hours fast, and Australian, Japanese, and New Zealand time, all of which depend on Greenwich. If in obedience to the London County Council we change our point of reference, we shall have remonstrances and possibly demands for compensation

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from all parts of the globe. The position of every place in the world, of every lighthouse and of every rock, as depicted on an English or American map or chart, and on most foreign maps or charts, is known by the angle between the plane of its meridian and that of Greenwich.
It is somewhat difficult to explain to any one who has never studied any branch of science the value of the nearest obtainable exactitude in measurements. Nearly all the discoveries which make the progress of the world, in the application of which to various industries many millions of men find work who would otherwise be unemployed, have been due to experiments conducted with the greatest possible accuracy. More exact instruments for measuring weight and length are constantly being invented. The advance in our chemical, metallurgical, and electrical industries is largely due to their employment. In chemistry, when a substance is too small to be weighed, you dissolve it and see how much water its equivalent will discolour. All branches of science are more or less interlaced, and receive from time to time unexpected help from one another. Continuity of observation is also a matter of great importance. All large astronomical instruments take some years before they settle down to their work, and if the observatory was moved there would be a most regrettable gap.
I have been told that nearly £500,000 has been spent on these works by the London County Council. Even if this is the case, what is that in comparison with what has been spent in bygone years on surveys and scientific expeditions, and on other work more or less connected with Greenwich? What are the interests of a few thousand people living near Greenwich compared with those of the millions whose navigation, clocks, watches, and geography depend on Greenwich? The observatory was there first, and if people choose to come and live in its neighbourhood they must accept the few restrictions involved by such a residence. If they put up machinery it must be at the risk of being ordered to remove it. Perhaps business men may understand the matter better if put in this way. To move Greenwich Observatory for the sake of the London County Council engines would be like changing the value of the
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British pound sterling to that of the Egyptian pound for the convenience of a few Cairo financiers.
If it was necessary to erect engines at Greenwich, one would naturally ask, Why not put up turbines, which in all probability would cause no vibration at all? Failing them, why not put up triple expansion engines with horizontal cylinders, a pattern that has been in use for many years? They run very smoothly. Instead of that, double expansion engines were selected with the first cylinder placed perpendicularly above the crank so as to get as much thumping as possible. Is the astronomy and geography of the whole world to be put out of joint for the sake of the perpendicular cylinders of the London County Council? Their interests are infinitesimal compared with those they claim the right to interfere with. The Council must be made to grasp the fact that, omitting purely scientific considerations, the navigational, geographical and business interests of the world do not permit the removal of Greenwich Observatory, and that if anything has to go it is their works. But before going to the expense of removal, it would be well to consider the practicability of reducing the height of the chimneys by 100 feet, of introducing additional machinery for the consumption of smoke, using forced draught, of substituting turbines for reciprocating engines, and of adding many tons of concrete to the foundations. The latter method was successfully employed in reducing the vibration of some of the tube railways. Of course no further extension of the works should be allowed.
The London County Council chimneys are nearly due north of the Observatory. They extend to a height of 2½ degrees above the horizon of the Observatory, and the four chimneys together obscure a horizontal sky space of about 3½ degrees, thus excluding from all future observation a celestial space of about nine square degrees on the horizon. When smoke is coming out of the chimneys a still further space is obscured. At present only two chimneys are in use and the other two are approaching completion. The present plant of reciprocating engines can work up to 20,000 horse-power, though only 5,000 is in use at present.

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It is impossible to estimate how much smoke and vibration there will be when the whole of this plant is in full working order, and how many instruments may then be disturbed.
If a clause is introduced into a private Act of Parliament it would give insufficient protection against future attacks by other persons. For instance, any company or person who chose to do so might build factories with still taller chimneys, and put up machinery, such as steam-hammers, which would shake the Observatory fifty times as much as the existing engines. I consider it absolutely necessary to pass a public Act of Parliament to protect the Royal Observatory from all future encroachments or interference. On March 13th, the London County Council actually wrote to the Astronomer Royal saying that they were—
"unable to acknowledge any liability in regard to the effect on the Observatory of the working of the station."
It is clear that the London County Council do not realise the mischief they are doing. It seems sad that the education of half a million of London children should have been entrusted to a body who are evidently ignorant of the first principles of geography. The London County Council are like little children playing with fire, and should be gently but firmly pulled off the hearth-rug—that is, the neighbourhood of Greenwich —before they have had time to do serious mischief.
I expect the next thing that the London County Council will do will be to order the Equator to clear out of the tropics and not to take more than its fair share of sunshine. A redistribution of sunshine would be a popular measure, but there might be some difficulty in carrying it out. Why not throw all the latitudes in the world out of order as well as the longitudes? As a matter of fact, the Poles and the Equator are not exactly always in the same position as regards the Earth. They oscillate to the extent of about fifty feet, while the Greenwich transit instrument remains the fixed reference point of the Universe. Another point on the same meridian would not serve the same purpose, with exactitude, as it might be more or less affected by
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this oscillation. When the London County Council engines are running, accurate observations for testing this oscillation cannot be taken. When I looked at the instrument used for measuring it, the lines in the mercurial mirror were constantly vibrating, though only 5,000 horse-power or less was being used. I was told that formerly they were only disturbed when trains were passing, but that now the movement is continuous. If ever the Greenwich railway directors ask for further Parliamentary powers, they should be told that they can only have them on condition of reinforcing the foundations of their line with concrete.
This is not the first attempt that has been made to destroy the usefulness of the Greenwich Observatory. A Fenian or an Anarchist once tried to destroy it. He met, however, with a well-deserved fate, for he blew himself to pieces instead. But he has, I believe the unique honour of being the only person whose crime has been timed to a tenth of a second by the institution that he wished to destroy. If the power of making accurate observations is denied to Greenwich Observatory it will be as much destroyed as if it had been blown up by a Fenian. A considerable portion of the observations and calculations that have been made at Greenwich and in other places during the last 230 years will be rendered useless. If the London County Council continue to interfere with the means of obtaining universal standard time and longitude, they will bring upon themselves the dislike and contempt of the whole civilised world. The Royal Observatory should not be shaken and smoked out of its place by a local body ignorant of what Greenwich is to the world in general. A public Act of Parliament should be passed to protect the Observatory from interference.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord TWEEDMOUTH): My Lords, the noble Lord has made a very vigorous speech on this subject, and I am glad to be able to sympathise with him in his care for the future of Greenwich Observatory. Since this subject has been raised it has been closely considered at the Admiralty. We have been in conference with the authorities at Greenwich and with the representatives of the County

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Council. As to the origin of this generating station, in 1901 the London County Council resolved on it, and in 1902 a Bill was passed through Parliament. In this Bill was inserted a clause known as the Observatory Clause, which gave to the Board of Trade the power, if any use of electrical power was likely to affect injuriously the instruments used in the Observatory, to require reasonable and proper precautions to be taken. This proposal was made public and approved by Parliament. It is a pity that the County Council had not more closely apprehended the possibility of danger to the Observatory in choosing this particular site, but I think that there was some responsibility also to be attached to the various departments and also to Parliament.
I think that the noble Lord has given an exaggerated account of what has taken place. This afternoon I had a conversation with the Astronomer Royal, and he thinks that at present, at any rate, no absolute damage has been done. I admit, however, that there is an apprehension of it when the station is developed to its fullest power. It will be almost the biggest generating station in the world when completed. Eight engines will work up to 52,000 horse-power, and the electricity generated will, it is supposed, be sufficient to work the whole of the London tramway system. But at the present time the Astronomer Royal says that no serious effect has as yet arisen in the working of the principal meridian instrument. This is a stationary instrument not easily subject to vibration. The Astronomer Royal says, however, that the instrument which has been affected is the portable transit instrument used for determining longitude. There has thus been evidence of some disturbance in this instrument, but the Astronomer Royal says that the interferences are variable and intermittent, and sometimes stop altogether. He added that from the large generating station at Deptford, which is only a quarter of a mile further from the Observatory than this generating station, no damage has resulted, and there is no indication of any disturbance.
What we have to do is to take very careful observation as to what exactly is going on at Greenwich. At present, I believe that the station is never worked
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up to more than 3,000 horse-power. A trial has been made of two engines, but the experiments were in no sense complete or satisfactory. What I propose to do is to ask Professor Ewing, who lives at Greenwich, and is a distinguished engineer, intimately acquainted with scientific instruments, to represent the Admiralty—he is our Director of Naval Education already—in the observations to be taken, which must extend over a considerable time. I am told that the disturbances that do occur vary very much, and that there is a great deal to be said as to the possibility of meeting the difficulties by reducing the height of the chimneys, though the Astronomer Royal does not think that the vapour of the chimneys as yet seriously interferes with the observations.
I propose also to ask the London County Council to name a representative of their own for the Committee I am about to appoint to report on the whole subject. I have had a conference with members of the County Council—the chairmen of the various committees—in company with the Astronomer Royal, and the County Council have expressed themselves very desirous to meet the wishes of the Admiralty and to do anything reasonable in the way of making such alterations in the plant as would prevent damage to the Observatory.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I cannot say that the statement which has just been made by my noble friend is very reassuring, and there are certain defects in the information which he has been good enough to give to the House. His expressions as to varying interferences and the time that will be taken in order to show the exact effect of them must fill every one of your Lordships with alarm.
One of the questions which suggests itself, however, is whether the County Council in the meanwhile are going to continue this gigantic work? Are there no means of coming to an arrangement with the County Council, that, pending inquiry, they should not continue to spend large sums of money upon these works? Evidently a gigantic mistake has been made—a mistake by the Admiralty, by the Astronomer Royal, by the County Council, and by Parliament,

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and I do not gather from the tone of the noble Lord, anxious and determined as he is to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion, the slightest note of confidence that it will be possible to remove all the objections that have been raised. The matter affects not only the Greenwich Observatory, but the whole scientific world. In these circumstances I scarcely think that the device of continuing the experiments and watching the observations is quite adequate to the enormous importance of the position.
I am aware of the great abilities of Professor Ewing. I am sure, too, that the County Council will bring to bear on the matter the greatest anxiety in the choice of their representative; but I question whether this is not a work in which the greatest scientists in the Kingdom should be associated in some form or another, so that the country and all those interested should be assured that every scrap of scientific knowledge available in this country, of whatever class, is being brought to bear on the subject. The idea that Greenwich Observatory, that historic scientific monument which has rendered such vast services to the world, and on which so much depends, should be imperilled even in the slightest degree, even by "varying interferences," is really a prospect which few persons can contemplate with equanimity. I conceive that it might come to this, that the whole scheme of the London County Council, notwithstanding their half-million expenditure, might have to be abandoned rather than that the scientific accuracy of Greenwich time should be endangered. It seems only reasonable that the amount involved should not be increased during the considerable time which my noble friend says will be necessary for the conducting of the experiments.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I ask your Lordships' indulgence while I say a few words. The noble Lord in introducing this subject dealt with two aspects of the question, first, the chimney, and second, the effect of the machinery when set in motion inside the generating station. The effect of the chimney is in its relation to the refraction of light, and I would illustrate my meaning by referring to what takes place when the orb of the sun as seen from the deck of a steamer touches the water line on
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the far horizon. At that instant it is in truth below the horizon. A star seen through a column of heated air is thrown about. A column of air rising up from a tall chimney below the line of vision of the telescope is not uniform in its temperature, and according to the blowing of the wind it passes either to the right or to the left, forward or backward. Consequently the temperature does not remain the same, and the result is that the image of the star which is seen is thrown about violently, and the individual observer is unable to fix it with the definite precision required, and the refraction error is unknown.
It has been suggested that there might be a possibility of lowering the chimneys, but I do not think that would have any very great effect. The chimney at the present time is not much more than two or three degrees above the horizontal point of the horizon. The danger is the heat from the furnaces below the chimneys and the column of hot air passing away. It was found that when the wind was blowing nearly due east, the hot air rising from the chimney was caught by a smart wind and blown away in a horizontal direction before it could rise up and practically destroy the northern horizon. But on a fine night, when there is no wind, the heated air would undoubtedly rise and certainly reach fifteen or even twenty degrees of altitude, destroying all observations which might be required to be made at that altitude by the introduction of the unknown errors.
Reference has been made by the noble Viscount who has just sat down to the mistakes committed by many and various public Departments, but I think there is one mistake which has not been alluded to, but which ought to be noticed in this connection, and that is that the architect to the London County Council had been employed at the Royal Observatory at Greenwich. He was employed to put up the buildings for the important instrument to which the noble Lord the First Lord of the Admiralty referred. The chimney is absolutely on the meridian of that instrument. That ought not to have been allowed. The chimney might easily have been placed in a different position, and I think the architect, knowing the importance of the instrument erected in

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the Observatory, ought to have noticed this defect.
Tremor is a matter that we are now familiar with in London. I can compare it to what a person feels in walking along the street when one of the large motor omnibuses comes along and shakes the pavement. Another thing one might liken it to is the feeling when you wish to write a note in a train. The shaking to which attention has been called by Lord Ellenborough is so small that an ordinary person might treat it with contempt, yet the movement is very large when taken in connection with the delicate observations which have to be carried on at Greenwich. The essentials for observation of an astronomical kind are stability and quietude. All astronomical observation is a question of measurement either from one body to another or the referring of a heavenly body to a fixed point. Astronomers are compelled to use as a horizon a mercurial mirror, in which the observer is able to see, when the instrument is in perfect order, the real images. As will be readily understood, tremor will affect a basin of mercury. The slightest tremor, set up either by a person walking, by a carriage at a distance, by a train passing, or an engine working, would show itself instantly. The effect is that a star, instead of appearing as a small round disc which one is able to see sharply, is ill-defined and unsteady.
If errors are introduced in this manner, whether by shaking or by abnormal refraction, no harm is done provided we know the magnitude of those errors. Nothing is so dangerous in astronomical observation as the unknown errors which have to be guarded against in the present circumstances at Greenwich. The instrument which I alluded to just now, which has its meridian obstructed by this chimney, is that which is devoted to the observation of the moon. For many years the moon has been given over, by the charter, as it were, of the scientific world, to Greenwich Observatory. Astronomy has grown so vast in its extent, that, as in the case of other branches of science, persons take up groups, none being able to carry the whole work in their heads or to do practical credit to the study of the whole. The Royal Observatory at Greenwich has specialised on the moon, mainly owing to
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the grand labours of Sir George Airey, the late Astronomer Royal, who by examination of the many hundreds of thousands of observations of the moon reduced those observations down and produced what is called a lunar theory. That is to say, by means of tabular arrangements and mathematical formula the position of the moon at any given time hence may be fairly accurately predicted.
The observations at Greenwich and the manner in which they have been carried out by the late Astronomer Royal have led the whole scientific world to say, "Gentlemen, you know your moon so well, pray continue to be responsible for her." In the same way the observation of the minor planets rests with Berlin, and other matters are looked after by American observers. If now Greenwich is reduced to the position of saying that its lunar observations have not the weight and value which so far have attached to them, it will be a terrible blow to the reputation of our Royal Observatory and also to our existence as a scientific country. Another difficulty is that disputes as to boundaries between countries are mainly settled by astronomical observation as to the position of the moon. The easiest way for taking such observations naturally would be by telegraph, but you do not find telegraph cables all over the world, and consequently these boundaries have to be settled by astronomical observations. As the moon is being constantly watched at Greenwich Observatory, applications are frequently received from foreign countries as to the error of the moon at such an hour on such a day. That also shows how extremely important it is that the observations at Greenwich should be reliable.
I understand that in any case Greenwich Observatory will not be the one that will have to move. If it were so, I hardly know how to imagine the result of destroying the position of the meridian of Greenwich. It is difficult for those who are not acquainted with the scientific minutiae to realise that such is the accuracy demanded of the instruments at Greenwich Observatory. Measures of extension are in fractions of the diameter of a spider's web and hundredths of a second of time. These measurements seem so infinitesimal that you may not think it

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possible that they could be effected. I will give you an instance. About twenty-eight years ago I had the honour to be on the Board of Visitors of the Royal Observatory. I was at that time President of the Royal Astronomical Society. The Astronomer Royal then told us that the right pier of the transit circle had been sinking for a period of time. It had been going on for some six years. Previous to the meeting of the Board of Visitors in June the errors due to the sinking of this pier had become so great and were so laborious to correct that the Astronomer Royal determined to put the thing right mechanically. He therfore had the transit circle lifted up, moved off the pivots, and beneath the right pivot which carried the big telescope was placed a sheet of paper 180th part of an inch thick. The pivot before this had been too low; after that piece of paper had been put under it it was very slightly too high. But it had taken six years to fall that amount, and the errors were so great, that it was necessary that this should be done.
The Astronomer Royal has told the First Lord of the Admiralty that at the present time, no actual damage has been done. I grant that that is the case, but at all times observations are taken which might be necessary for the purpose of determining a longitude, and I can give you the effect which those observations would have at the present time. I suppose there is no geographical distance, so far as longitude is concerned, better known than the distance between London and Paris. That distance is known certainly with an error not greater than five feet astronomically. Observations which can be obtained at the present time give, not an error of five feet, but an error ranging from fifty to 300 feet. Therefore, though the disturbance caused to the instruments at the Observatory by the County Council's electric works may be infinitely small, that infinitely small disturbance may lead to irreparable damage.
LORD KELVIN: My Lords, I am sure we are all deeply indebted to the noble Lord who has introduced this subject, and to the noble Earl who has just sat down for his very interesting speech. We must all be deeply impressed with the extreme gravity of this question. The difficulty
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of seeing what is the right solution is great. But we are comforted by the assurance of the noble Lord the First Lord of the Admiralty that, if either of the two structures is to be removed from Greenwich, it shall not be the Royal Observatory. It would be intolerable that the site of the Royal Observatory should be compulsorily changed. On the other hand, there is a serious responsibility on account of the large amount of ratepayers' money which has been spent by the London County Council.
If there is any solution by which the electric works at Greenwich can go on without crippling or seriously interfering with the work of the Observatory we shall all, I am sure, be glad. Even at present I think we may look forward to possible changes in the arrangement of the electricity works by which they may not seriously disturb or practically cripple the astronomical observations at Greenwich. A solution which has been suggested—the substitution of steam turbines—is easily spoken of, but not so lightly to be undertaken in respect of machinery already completed. The substitution of steam turbines for reciprocating engines would probably necessitate a different type of electrical machines, and the result of such a substitution might lead to a gigantic piece of "scrapping." I do not know how far the County Council works have progressed.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: About one half of the works have been completed, but it has not been decided what the engines are to be.
LORD KELVIN: Then there is still time?
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Yes.
LORD KELVIN: I am glad to learn from the noble Lord that there is still time to avert half of the possible damage. I believe that the disturbance caused at the Observatory by the vibration from the electric works might be practically annulled by the substitution of steam turbines for reciprocating engines. The Metropolitan Electric Supply Corporation some ten or fifteen years ago had a great number of complaints of vibration from occupiers of

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neighbouring houses and from a neighbouring hotel. Several years passed and the complaints became more serious. At last the company boldly resolved to do away with the reciprocating engines and put steam turbines in their place. Since that was done no further complaint has been received. Of course, that does not prove that in the case of the Greenwich Observatory, where such a slight vibration is injurious, the remedy would be effective, but I think most engineers would come to the conclusion that the substitution of steam turbines would practically annul the vibration. I trust that both Houses of Parliament will unite in defending the Royal Observatory from the tremendous disaster which has seemed to be impending. It is no exaggeration to say that the whole world outside, as well as the British Empire, would deplore anything that would injure the great and good work done in the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, and I hope the Government will succeed in preventing that.
EARL CAWDOR: My Lords, your Lordships will all have listened with much interest to the instructive speeches which have been delivered this evening, and I am sure the noble Lords who have spoken will think that the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty is not quite satisfactory. I do not propose to go into the question as to who is to blame. We all agree that something has taken place which ought to have been avoided. I was glad to hear from the noble Lord that he had been met in a friendly spirit by the London County Council, but I am bound to say that it does not appear to me quite satisfactory that it should only be propossd to appoint an expert in the person of Professor Ewing, whose great skill we all recognise most fully, and a representative of the London County Council to watch the effect of what is going on.
What we want is to guard most carefully against the slightest increase in the evils which are admitted to exist. The mischief that is being done is not regular. It seems to vary; but the minute difference in measurements effected shows that these matters want watching with the utmost possible care. I hope the noble Lord the First Lord of the Admiralty will be able in a short time to
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assure us that some further action is being adopted. The first step to be taken, if it is possible to do so, is to stop any further expenditure by the London County Council that may be found to be useless or worse than useless. It appears certain that any further development of the powerful engines that are being used must increase the evils. Therefore we should guard against any further increase in the horse-power used in these works, and I beg the noble Lord to consider the question of getting the assistance of the best expert advice obtainable in this country. I do not undervalue the great ability of Professor Ewing, but the question at issue is a very big one, and one which deserves to the full the best scientific advice that can be procured. I do not know whether there is any legal process by which the London County Council can be stopped from carrying out works that do mischief to the Observatory, but, if not, I think powers should be obtained. I hope the question of cost will not be allowed to stand in the way. The half million of money expended, or partly expended, by the County Council is comparatively a small item when it is remembered what is at stake.
LORD MUSKERRY: May I ask the noble Lord the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Board of Trade could not act under the Observatory Clause in the County Council's Bill?
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I have not stated all that I have done in the way of endeavouring to obtain information on this subject, which has only arisen within the last few days. The Law Officers have had the whole question of the powers of the Admiralty and the Board of Trade before them, and they are to advise what those powers are. I have also consulted the Chairman of the Visitors, and he told me that the Visitors comprised all the leading astronomers of this country, and they will, of course, give all the assistance they can in elucidating the question. The London County Council have told me that they would not go on with the two chimneys, which are now only partly erected, and I imagine there will not be much more done with regard to the installation, which is incomplete, and for which the type of engine has not yet been decided.

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I hold that it is desirable to discover what the effect of the existing installation really is. It is, I think, necessary that that installation should be worked at its full power in order that we may discover what is the effect on the instruments at Greenwich. I think the House will agree that before doing anything we are bound to discover whether by any rearrangement of the machinery the threatened damage can be averted—for I cannot admit that up to the present moment it is more than a threat of damage. I undertake that every effort shall be made to make the inquiry a thorough one and one which shall command everyone's respect.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTH-WARK: Am I right in understanding that the full installation is to be 52,000 horse-power, and that up to the present I only 3,000 horse-power has been worked?
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The full power will be 52,000 horse-power. The amount already installed represents, I think, 26,000 horse-power.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: I should like to ask whether I correctly interpreted the noble Lord as saying that only 3,000 horse-power had up to the present time been worked, and that it was intended that the full plant should be 52,000 horsepower.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I said that on the occasion on which some tremor was observed 3,200 horse-power had been developed.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: How much is the whole?
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Fifty-two thousand horse-power.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTH-WARK: If all this difficulty has been caused by 3,000 horse-power and there is a possibility of 52,000 horse-power, the gravity of the matter is considerably enhanced.

JUSTICES AND THE RATES.
LORD BARNARD: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether the requirement that the consent of two or more justices must be obtained to certain rates now serves any useful purpose, and, if not, whether they will
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take any steps to repeal such requirement. I may explain, for the information of those of your Lordships who are not familiar with this matter, that in rural townships and parishes the last proceeding after the poor-rate has been made, and before the rate can be collected, is that it requires to be allowed by two or more justices. I have not been able to discover what the origin of that allowance was, though I think it goes back to the year 1601. There was no doubt good reason at that date for this allowance being required, but I have been unable to ascertain that at the present time the proceeding is of any public utility what-ever. On the other hand, I am able to state that it is a matter of some slight expense to the ratepayers, and of very considerable inconvenience. I have before me a letter written by an assistant overseer in which he informs me that in his union it costs the ratepayers some £30 a year, because a fee has to be paid for this allowance by the magistrates. Many of the officials have to go eight or ten miles to find magistrates. What the principle is on which this requirement is based I have not been able to find out, and I beg to ask whether steps cannot be taken to repeal the requirement.
EARL CARRINGTON: My Lords, I agree that on the face of it it is rather difficult to understand why this requirement should be necessary. The requirement, however, is a very old one. I believe it is over 300 years old. The justices do not enter into the question as to whether a rate ought to be made or not; if it is in proper form they must allow it. That is the law as it stands. I have no information that there is any fee to be paid when this ceremony takes place, but I understand from the noble Lord that that is so. So long as the overseers have the duty of making the poor rate it is thought that there is not any very great or sufficient reason for abolishing altogether the allowance of the justices. I am informed that the allowance of a rate by the justices is to prevent the possibility of any bogus rates being raised. Under the present conditions it is thought to be best upon the whole to allow the ancient custom to continue.
House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.