Sitting of 18 June 1906

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY IN QUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—Cumberland Electricity and Power Gas Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERE-TO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of Working Classes) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time to-morrow.
  Scottish Provident Institution Buildings Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  Hackney Electricity Bill. As amended, considered.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
  Maryport Harbour Bill [Lords]. [Not amended]; considered; to be read the third time.
  Poole Corporation Water Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill. Read a second time, and committed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to — Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Great North of Scotland Railway Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.
Wireless Telegraphy Bill; Southampton Gas Bill, with an Amendment.
Gas Companies (Removal of Sulphur Restrictions) Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to — Holyhead Water Bill [Lords]; Mersey Railway Bill [Lords]; North Sussex Gas and Water Bill [Lords]; Preston, Chorley, and Horwich Tramways Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Education under the Education Acts, 1870 to 1903, to enable the Councils of the Administrative Counties of Devon and the West Riding of Yorkshire to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts." [Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Devon, &c.) Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Education under the Education Acts, 1870 to 1903, to enable the London County Council to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts." [Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 1) Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the time for taking certain lands and for the construction of certain street works and a tramway authorised by The

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Dover Corporation Act, 1901; to empower the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of the borough of Dover to execute a further street work in connection with such works; and for other purposes." [Dover Corporation Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Folkestone Electricity Supply Company, Limited, with respect to the supply of electricity in the urban districts of Folkestone and Sandgate and the borough of Hythe; and for other purposes." [Folkestone and District Electricity Supply Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Companies, and the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Companies Managing Committee." [South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate and confer powers upon the Truro Gas Company." [Truro Gas Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Company to make an entrance channel and lock entrance into their existing South Dock; and to construct other works'; and for other purposes." [Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Borough of Portsmouth Waterworks Company with respect to the raising of money; and for other purposes." [Portsmouth Water Bill [Lords.]
And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Kent Electric Power Company to construct a pier on the River Medway, and to extend their powers with respect to the supply of electricity; and for other purposes." [Kent Electric Power Bill [Lords.]
Dover Corporation Bill [Lords]; Folkestone and District Electricity Supply
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Bill [Lords]; South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill [Lords]; Truro Gas Bill [Lords]; Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Bill [Lords]; Portsmouth. Water Bill [Lords]; Kent Electric Power Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Devon, &c.) Bill [Lords], Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 257.]
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 1) Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 258.]

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against; from Black Bourton; Codsall; Daventry (two); Halesworth and Chediston; Middleton Stoney; Mortimer West End; Nuttall; Souldern; and Winterton; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from Bardwell; Congleton; Durham; Market Drayton; and Moreton Saye; to lie upon the Table.
  PHARMACY BILL.
  Petition from Nottingham, against; to lie upon the Table.
  POISONS AND PHARMACY BILL [LORDS].
  Petitions for alteration; from Battersea; Hull (two); Mile End; Paisley (two); Warrington (two); Wednesbury; and West Salford; to lie upon the Table.
  SHOPS BILL.
  Petition from Westminster, against; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE (FOREIGN COUNTRIES AND BRITISH POSSESSIONS).
  Copy presented, of Annual Statement of the Trade of the United Kingdom with Foreign Countries and British Possessions for 1905. Volume II. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS, 1882 AND 1888.
  Copy presented, of Special Report by the Board of Trade, under Section (1) of The Electric Lighting Act, 1888 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3638 to 3641 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  REMUNERATION OF MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 1, 1906).
  Copies presented, of Reports from His Majesty's Representatives abroad respecting the Remuneration of Members of Parliament in Foreign States [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Inquiry, into Charities (Administrative County of Devon). Further Return relative thereto [ordered 26th July, 1905; Mr. Griffith Roscawen]; to be printed. [No. 201.]
  PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.
  Return ordered, "of Net Public Income and Net Public Expenditure under certain specified heads, as represented by Receipts into and Issues out of the Exchequer from 1891–2 to 1905–6, inclusive (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 239, of Session 1905)."—(Sir Henry Fowler.)

  PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION (FOREIGN COUNTRIES AND BRITISH COLONIES).
  Address for "Return showing what legislative measures have been taken in Foreign Countries and in British Colonies for the application of the principle of proportional representation to Public
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  Elections, whether national, provincial, cantonal, municipal, or otherwise; and the results of the working of such measures during the periods in which they have been put into operation, with notices of any modifications or extensions which have been made therein."—(Mr. J. M. Robertson.)

  TECHNICAL EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Return ordered, "showing the extent to which, and the manner in which, local authorities in Scotland have allocated and applied funds to the purposes of Technical Education during the year ending the 15th day of May, 1906, under the following Acts: The Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Act, 1890; The Education and Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1892; The Technical Schools (Scotland) Act, 1887; The Technical Instruction Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1892; and Public Libraries Acts."—(Mr. Sinclair.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Second-Term Rent for Mrs. Higginbotham, County Cavan.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether Mrs. Higginbotham, who holds land in county Cavan under the Lord Chancellor, representing Martha Ann Fenner, a lunatic, has applied to have a second-term rent fixed, and that the application has been refused on the ground that, in law, there is no landlord; and, if so, on what ground, and for whom, rent is collected.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Land Commission inform me that, in the case referred to, the landlord is described in the form of application to fix a fair rent as "in re Martha Ann Fenner, a lunatic, by Thomas F. Barry, her committee." This application was served on the Land Commission on the 9th April, 1903, and it has been several times listed for hearing, and adjourned owing to the death of the landlord, because when the landlord dies after the service of an originating notice to fix

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  a fair rent it is necessary to serve notice upon his successor. In September last the adjournment was made on the application of the tenant's solicitor, and in April, when the case was last ad journed, it did not appear that the successor to the landlord had been served with notice. It has been as certained from the Lunacy Department of the Court of Chancery that the lunatic died on the 11th December, 1903, and that advertisements have been widely published with a view to discovering the heir-at-law of the deceased, but no claimant has as yet established his title. This is the real cause of the delay. In March, 1906, the Lord Chancellor, by order, transferred the matter to the court of the hon. Mr. Justice Barton to administer the estate, and an application is pending in that court for letters of administration. The receiver's final account in the lunacy matter has been passed, and it is presumed an application will be made to Mr. Justice Barton to appoint a receiver in the action. When a receiver has been appointed, if the application in the fair rent matter is served on that gentleman by the tenant's solicitor, the case can be proceeded with. Mrs. Higginbotham, who is the only tenant on the estate, has paid her rent up to the last gale day; and it is stated that she has made a claim to be the heir-at-law of the deceased lunatic. She will, it may be assumed, have notice of the proceedings in Mr. Justice Barton's court. Pending the discovery of the heir-at-law, it is necessary that rent should be collected for the benefit of whomsoever may ultimately be declared to be the heir.

  Wages of Belfast Female Post Office Learners.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the female learners at Belfast have not yet had the benefits of the wages adjustments he introduced applied to them; if he can say when they will be placed on the new scale; and if there is any hope of permanent places on the establishment being found for them at an early date.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I was not aware that there had been any
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  further delay in applying the new scale but I now find that the matter is no yet quite settled. But in any case the new scale, when applied, will date back to 1st January.

  Pay of Clerks in the Dublin Post Office.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster General if he is aware that women clerk in the Accountant's Office, Dublin, have their maximum salaries fixed at £10 per annum less than those of women clerk in the London office, who have been appointed from the same competitive examinations, while no such distinction is made in the case of men clerks employed in the same office, and whose conditions of appointment are identical and that memorials from women clerk in Dublin praying for remuneration similar to that given to the women clerk in London have been refused on the grounds that the cost of living is less in Dublin than in London, and that it is the practice of the Post Office to pay less salary at provincial offices; and will he explain why these reasons do not apply in the case of men clerks and whether, seeing that the former reason has been disproved before a Treasury Commission to reduce the salaries of other civil servants stationed in Dublin, and that the latter applies to the capital of Ireland, and that this reduction of maximum salary in the case of women clerks transferred from London to Dublin is a violation of the conditions of their appointment, he will consider the case of the women clerks in Dublin with a view to giving them remuneration equal to that given women clerks in London.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The scale of the Second Division clerks fixed by the Treasury, as they belong to a class common to the whole of the Civil Service. The women clerks were all under the terms of their engagement appointed to London offices, and it was only at their own request that they were subsequently transferred to Dublin, with the full knowledge that the scale in Dublin was lower. Transfers to Dublin are much sought after by women clerks, and if any of those who have bean transferred to Dublin would prefer to return

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  to London, their application shall be considered and endeavour made to arrange a transfer.

  Training of Naval Stokers.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can explain why stokers are being trained in the use of tools and machinery used in marine engineering, and who by this means obtain warrant rank, while men who are already trained can be obtained to do this class of work.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) I must refer the hon. Member to the Statement of Admiralty Policy [Cd. 2791] of last session, and the Reports on the New Scheme of Training [Cd. 2841] of this session.

  Outfit Allowance for Naval Volunteer Officers.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the details of the outfit allowances to naval Volunteer officers have yet been settled; and, if so, when the regulations will be issued by which the allowances will be granted.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The financial questions involved have now been practically settled, and regulations on the subject are being prepared.

  Irish Evicted Tenants—Case of Bernard Martin.
  MR. JAMES O'KELLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that Bernard Martin, Cloon-cruffer, county Roscommon, a tenant of the Countess of Kingston, was evicted from his holding on the 14th May, 1892; that he has made repeated applications for reinstatement under the Land Act; that no notice of his applications has been taken, notwithstanding that portions of the estate have been sold, and that further sales are now pending; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates' Commissioners have received from, Bernard Martin an application for rein-
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  statement in a holding on the estate of the Countess of Kingston. This holding is not included in the portion of the estate now being sold, but the Commissioners intend to make inquiries into Martin's case.

  Case of John Cronin.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland whether, before the lands of Ballyseedy, Tralee, now being sold by Colonel Nash, will be declared an estate, inquiry will be made into the case of John Cronin, evicted tenant on the estate.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have recently received from John Cronin an application for reinstatement, and will have his case inquired into in due course. No proceedings for the sale of the estate in question have yet come before the Commissioners.

  Cases of Daniel Murphy and Michael O'Sullivan.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an inspector from the Estates Commissioners has yet visited county Kerry to inquire into the cases of evicted tenants; whether he inquired into the cases of Daniel Murphy, Dromin, Killorglin, and Michael O'Sullivan, Doaghs; and whether application was made to Mr. Wharton, who now occupies Mr. Murphy's farm, to leave for some other place.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that one of their inspectors is at present inquiring into the cases of evicted tenants in county Kerry. The cases mentioned in the Question have been referred to him, but his report has not yet been received.

  Ejectment Notices on the Ballycleary Estate, Queen's County.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that ejectment processes for one and a-half year's rent have been served upon the tenants on the Ballycleary

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  Estate of Mrs. Dunne, Aughavoe, Queen's County; and whether, seeing that the tenants have been in treaty for the purchase of their holdings, and that negotiations were broken off in consequence of the demand of twonty-four years purchase, with bonus, made by the landlord, the Estates Commissioners will approach Mrs. Dunne with a view to settlement, pending the hearing of the cases before the county court judge.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge of the facts alleged in the Question, and that no proceedings for the sale of the estate mentioned are pending before them. The Commissioners, however, will approach the owner with a view to taking action as conciliators in accordance with the regulations of 13th February, 1906.

  Sale of the Owen Wynne Estate.
  MR. P. A. MCHUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the sale of the Owen Wynne Estate, including the town-land of Gregg, near Sligo, has been completed; has the Land Commission paid over the purchase money to the landlord; is he aware that Mrs. Kate Banks, of Cregg, on this estate, paid interest to the Land Commission, on 16th November, 1905, at the rate of 3¾ per cent., and that on 22nd January, 1906, the Estates Commissioners informed her by letter that her holding was excluded from the estate for sale; will he explain whether it was by order of the Land Commission that Mr. George Hewson, of Dromahair, county Leitrim, agent for Mr. Owen Wynne, applied to Mrs. Banks, on the 2nd June instant, for payment of. £5 8s. alleged to be due for interest pending sale; did Mrs. Banks, at the request of Mr. Hewson, sign an application for an advance of £332; was it found, on inspection, that her farm was not security for so large a price; will he see that Mrs. Banks' farm is included in the sale of the Owen Wynne Estate and sold to her at a fair price; and will he request the Estates Commissioners to stop further proceedings in connection with the sale of the Wynne Estate until the circumstances connected with Mrs. Barks' case are fully investigated.
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  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that the sale of the estate in question was completed on 8th February, 1906, and the advances were made on that date. The funds have not yet been allocated. According to the purchase agreement signed by Mrs. Banks, the interest payable by her in lieu of rent was to be at the rate of 3¾ per cent., and this was duly collected by the Land Commission up to 1st November, 1905. On 22nd January, 1906, the Estates Commissioners informed Mrs. Banks that her holding was excluded from the estate for sale, and consequently the Land Commission ceased to collect interest as from 1st November, 1905, and the tenant became liable for rent or interest to the vendor. The Commissioners, however, have no information as to the amount demanded by Mr. Hewson, the agent. The Commissioners are not aware at whose instance Mrs. Banks signed the agreement for purchase. It was ascertained upon inspection that the holding would not afford security for the advance of £332 applied for, and the Commissioners therefore declined to sanction the advance. The agent for the vendor has undertaken to include Mrs. Banks' holding in the next estate of this vendor for sale, and when this estate comes before the Commissioners they will see that the undertaking is fully carried into effect.

  Second-Term Judicial Rents.
  MR. FLYNN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what principle the Assistant Land Commissioners are now proceeding, in connection with the fixing of rents for the second judicial term, in respect to improvements made on the land by the tenants; whether they are still instructed to pay due regard to the section of the Act of 1881 which provides that rent shall not be chargeable in respect to improvements made by the tenant or his predecessor in title; has his attention been called to the case of Mr. Patrick Lynch, Curragh Kilbrin, on the estate of Dr. Barry, of Kanturk, recently heard, in which Mr. Corliss Bolster, ex-Land Commissioner, valued at £66 10s., whereas Mr. Commissioner Donavan valued at £84, being a reduction of only

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  £4 a year on the first judicial rent fixed seventeen years ago; and whether, in view of the complaints by improving tenants of the action of the Assistant Commissioners, steps will be taken by legislation or otherwise to strengthen and make clear Section 8 of the Act of 1881.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce) I am informed by the Land Commission that in dealing with the question of improvements when fixing judicial rents the Sub-Commissioners are governed by the Land Law Act of 1881, and subsequent Acts, the rules prescribed under those Acts, and the numerous judicial decisions interpreting the law as to the fixing of fair rents. I have no information as to the particular case referred to, except that an appeal from the order of the Sub-Commission is pending in the case.

  Irish Judicial Rents.
  MR. LUNDON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at the sitting of the Sub-Land Commissioners for the fixing of fair rents, held in the town of Tipperary, in the early days of May, a case as between Mr. Hefferman Considine, landlord, and Michael M'Grath, tenant, on the lands of Tirmanagh Pallasgrean, county Limerick, was gone into, that the farm, consisting of forty-four Irish, acres has been for the past fifteen years, first-term, held under judicial lease at a yearly rent of £86 10s., although, a large portion of it is of inferior quality; and has his attention been called to the statement of a herdsman of Mr. Considine on the occasion that dairy cows are now let for the season at £12 10s. per cow, although the figure all around is £9 per cow; and can he say whether the Commissioners have as yet inspected the farm or have they given their decision as to the fair rent.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I have referred this Question to the Land Commission, who inform me that the case referred to is one in which an application was made to have a judicial rent fixed by the Court; and they do not consider it desirable to discuss the details of such cases, which are the subject of judicial decisions.

  Refusal of Local Government Board to Sanction Appointment of Mr. Flanagan as Engineer and Architect to the Corofin District Council.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board have refused to sanction the appointment of Mr. Flanagan as engineer and architect to the Corofin District Council; and, if so, if he will state the reason for this action.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Local Government Board have been unable to sanction the appointment of Mr. Flanagan as engineer and architect to the Corofin Board of Guardians, upon the ground that he has not been shown to be qualified for the position. Mr. Flanagan appears to have had experience as an overseer of roads, but no evidence is forthcoming to show that he possesses any qualifications in the matter of land surveying, mapping, and building works. Mr. Flanagan's appointment as engineer to the district council has not yet been reported to the Local Government Board. In view of the expected building of a large number of new cottages under the Labourers Bill, when it passes into law, it becomes specially important to secure that the architects of local bodies shall prove that they possess, technical skill and experience.

  Officers of Health in Rural Districts and Sanitation of National Schools.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any complaints have been received in regard to the manner in which officers of health in rural districts discharge their duties in connection with sanitation of the out offices attached to national schools and the premises generally.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Local Government Board have not received any complaint that there has been failure of duty on the part of medical officers of health generally in regard to the sanitary arrangements of national schools. It is to be remembered that these buildings are periodically inspected by the inspectors of national schools, whose reports are communicated to the managers of the schools.

  Protection from Contagious Diseases in Irish National Schools.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if any, and what, means are at present in force to prevent children suffering from contagious diseases attending national schools in the ordinary way.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any provision is made, for the systematic medical inspection of pupils attending national schools in Ireland with respect to defective sight, hearing, or with regard to skin diseases; and, if not, will he direct the attention of the Commissioners to the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Commissioners of National Education inform me that they direct the exhibition in every national school of a printed notice calling attention to the penalties for sending children to school who have been suffering from infectious disorders. The Commissioners have also recently sanctioned the exhibition in every national school of a poster calling attention to the dangers of consumption and the measures to be adopted to prevent the spread of the disease; and in the new edition of "Notes for Teachers," which the Commissioners are about to issue, a special chapter is devoted to school hygiene, and teachers are instructed as to the general signs of infectious diseases. Managers and teachers are empowered to exclude from national schools children suffering from infectious diseases. The Answer to the hon. Member's second Question is in the negative. The matter is already within the knowledge and consideration of the Commissioners.

  Salaries of Irish. National School Teachers.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is proposed to give extra salary to graduates of Universities who are teachers in Irish national schools; and whether, seeing that such a change would help to raise the standard of education to the benefit of the Irish child, steps will be taken to make provision in the next Estimates for such a change.
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  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. The adoption of this proposal would involve very considerable expense and it would be a question whether any addition to the funds available for primary education could not be better expended in some other way.

  Irish Evicted Tenants—Case of Mrs. Catherine O'Connor.
  MR. MURPHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the inspector from the Estates Commissioners notified Mrs. Catherine O'Connor, who claims to be an evicted tenant on the Morrogh Bernard Estate, county Kerry, that he would inspect her evicted farm on the 5th April, 1906, and that on that date the inspector refused to inquire into the case on the grounds that he was prevented by the estate agent from doing so; and whether the Estates Commissioners will refuse to sanction a sale of any portion of this estate until the claims of all the evicted tenants on it are fully and satisfactorily dealt with.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that it is the fact that the agent of the estate in question objected to the inspection of the holdings of evicted tenants who had not signed agreements for purchase. The Commissioners, however, intend to have further inquiries made into the cases of these evicted tenants.

  Untenanted Farms on the Clanricarde Estate.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that Lord Clanricarde's agent has made a report to the Government on the condition of Lord Clanricarde's estate in the county Galway, he will state how many farms on this estate are untenanted.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) No such report has been received by the Government from Lord Clanricarde's agent. The official information upon the subject of the Question, which is contained in a Return (No. 173) presented to Parliament in 1903, shows that out of 254

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  evicted farms on the estate all except twenty-eight were in the occupation of tenants. I have no reason to believe that the circumstances have materially changed since then.

  Army Pension for Patrick Fox.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will cause inquiry to be made into the case of Patrick Fox, now of Arden Flash, county Fermanagh, who served nineteen and a half years in the Army, first in the 5th Battalion Inniskilling Fusiliers and then in the 2nd Battalion of the same regiment (regimental number 443), and was on the 12th September, 1883, transferred to the First Class Army Reserve at Omagh with a good conduct certificate, and was discharged from the Army Reserve on 8th October, 1891, with good conduct certificate, but without a pension, which he has since been trying to get; will he say if it is in accordance with the Army Regulations that a man who serves so long, and leaves with good conduct certificates, should not be entitled to a pension; and, if so, will he recommend a change in the orders.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This man was discharged on the 8th October, 1887, after twelve years service, on the termination of his first period of limited engagement, and subsequently served four years in Section D Army Reserve. He had previously served for two years 176 days in the Donegal Militia. His total service with the colours was seven years eleven months, and he was not engaged in any campaign during this period. His service does not therefore entitle him to any pension. There is no trace of any application for pension from this man.

  American Firms and Army Meat Contracts.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can ascertain from the Army Council what American firm has obtained the contract for the supply of fresh beef to the troops stationed in the three Kingdoms; and whether he can state if any canned provisions are
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  used, and what ratio of frozen mutton is allowed.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The Morris Meat Company, an American firm long established on the London meat market, holds contracts for the supply of ration meat at three military stations in the United Kingdom. These contracts do not include the supply of canned provisions, but occasionally preserved meat is issued from the Army reserves, in order to insure a turn over of the war stock. The proportion of frozen mutton allowed does not exceed two-sevenths.

  Rifle Range for Welshpool.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the need which exists for establishing a rifle range at Welshpool, an important depot of Auxiliary Forces; and whether he will take action in order to the providing of such, range at the earliest possible date.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.), The establishment of a rifle range at Welshpool depends upon the provision of suitable manœurving areas in connection with it. These matters are now engaging the attention of the General Officer Commanding in Chief, Western Command. It will not have escaped the observation of my hon. friend that the latter part of his Question involves financial consideration.

  Religious Services in the Theatre at Malta.
  MR. ESSEX: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will lay upon the Table of the House the correspondence between the Governor of Malta and the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Malta, relative to the Protestant religious services in the theatre at Valetta, which services were afterwards disallowed by the withdrawal by the Governor of the consent to the use of the theatre for such services, which he had already granted.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I will lay the correspondence upon the Table of the House.

  Ceylon Pearl Fisheries.
  MR. DALZIEL: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, having regard to his statement that there are grave objections to the procedure which was followed in regard to the Ceylon Pearl Fisheries Concession, and to his further statement that the results have not been at all satisfactory, the Government will consider the advisability in the public interest of reopening the whole matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) No, Sir; the transaction must be regarded as complete.

  Trustee Securities.
  MR. J. WILLIAMS BENN: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware of the effect upon municipalities of the provisions of the Trustee Act of 1893, limiting the investments of trustees to nominal or inscribed stock and excluding corporation mortgages as a trustee security: and whether, seeing that the security in all cases of mortgage is the rates, and that many corporations, including Devonport, have by local Acts power to mortgage all their revenues in addition to the rates, thus making the security identical with that of stock, in view of the practice which obtains in Scotland, he will take steps to legalise as trustee securities corporation mortgages.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am aware of the desire of local authorities that the power of trustees to invest in their securities should be extended in the direction suggested; but the determination of the question as to the securities in which trustees should be

  London.

  Outside London.

  Total.

  In district and separate schools

  7,878

  4,515

  12,393

  Cottage, scattered, and other homes

  3,876

  10,714

  14,590

  Duties of Rural Postmen.
  MR. DU CROS: To ask the Postmaster-General what is the
  authorised to invest is not a matter within the jurisdiction of the Local Government Board. It is one rather for the Lord Chancellor. I may, however, observe that, even if the security was the same in the case of a mortgage as in that of nominal or inscribed stock, the latter would usually be the more marketable security. This is a point to be borne in mind.

  Unification of Rating Powers.
  MR. J. WILLIAMS BENN: T ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the administrative difficulties arising out of rating powers exercised by overseers in such towns as Devonport, he will initiate legislation securing unification of rating powers by vesting such powers in local authorities.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I presume that my hon. friend has in view legislation to provide that in a borough all the rates shall be levied by the town council. I have this matter under consideration.

  Boarded-out Poor Law Children.
  COLONEL HERBERT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will state the number of Poor Law children at present accommodated in the district and separate schools, the village communities, and grouped cottage homes of metropolitan unions and provincial unions respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The number of children in separate establishments of the guardians of Poor Law unions in England and Wales on the 1st January last was as follows:—
  maximum number of hours for a rural postman to walk daily, and does this apply to town postmen, or are they

  1343
  expected to be on their feet for the whole eight hours in addition to walking to and from home.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The maximum duration of walking on duty for postmen employed on purely rural duties is an average of six hours per diem. The duties of a town postman are reckoned on a different basis, namely, on an attendance of forty-eight hours a week. A postman in a town is necessarily occupied for a considerable portion of his time on indoor duties in connection with deliveries or collections, and thus is not walking for the whole of his duty.

  Weight Carried by Postmen.
  MR. DUCROS: To ask the Postmaster-General whether the rule for giving assistance to postmen who may have above thirty-five pounds is intended to mean that a portion of the load may be transferred from one duty to another, or should a special delivery be made of the portion taken away to relieve a man; is he aware that the former method was adopted at St. Leonards-on-Sea on May 4th, No. 17 walk being relieved of some parcels which were transferred to No. 4 parcel duty, this duty thus being compelled to relieve another in spite of the fact that over fifty-two hours duty was worked on the latter duty during that week, and under these circumstances will overtime payment be made for the four hours.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) If a postman in a town is overburdened there is no reason why he should not be relieved by the transfer of part of his load to another postman on duty, provided, of course, that the second man is not thereby overburdened or his walk unduly prolonged. I will cause inquiry to be made as regards the particular case mentioned by the hon. Member and inform him of the result.

  Publication of the MSS. of the Irish College in Rome.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the interest caused in Ireland by the publication by the Historical
  1344
  Manuscripts Commission of the MSS. at the Franciscan Monastery in Dublin, he will consider the advisability of securing the publication of similar historical documents, bearing on the same-period, now at the Irish College in Rome.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) Inquiry shall be made into the suggestion of the hon. Member. But no funds are at present available for the purpose in question, and I cannot give any pledge on the subject.

  Board of Works and the Lough Swilly Railway Company.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the directors of the Lough Swilly Railway Company have made charges against the Board of Works in respect both of certain alleged departures from specification by the contractors employed to make the Burtonport extension, and also of the character and amount of the rolling stock provided; and whether, in view of all the circumstances, the Treasury will now agree to grant an inquiry into the whole matter.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has received a letter from Mr. Alexander Spense, secretary to the Londonderry, Lough Swilly, and Letterkenny Railway, urging on behalf of the board of directors that, in accordance with the views taken by the ratepayers, the Donegal County Council and the Londonderry Chamber of Commerce which have passed resolutions in favour of an inquiry, the charges made by the board of these railways against the Board of Works with reference to the Burton-port Railway and the expenditure of public money in reference thereto, and having regard to their granting to the subject of inquiry by a competent and impartial tribunal; and, if so, what reply has been given to that letter.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) After very full and repeated consideration of all the circumstances of this case, and in view of the terms of the Order in Council and the agreement with the Treasury for the construction, etc., of

  1345
  the line, the Treasury has decided that it would not be justified in referring the matter to an outside tribunal, and: I am so informing Mr. Spence in reply to his letter referred to.

  Provision of Fresh Peat Ground for the Township of Glasphein, Skye.
  MR. JOHN DEWAR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he: is aware that the crofting township of Glasphein, in Glendale, Skye, belonging to the Congested Districts Board, is so seriously congested that the peat banks are practically exhausted, and that the neighbouring proprietor, who last year kindly granted permission for the crofters to take their supply of peats from his property, has this year prevented them from doing so; and if he will give instruction that the Congested Districts Board shall take steps to see that fresh peat ground is provided for their tenants on another part of their estate.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) I am informed that the facts are as stated. The Congested Districts Board are unable to insist that other townships having peat banks on their own common pasture should admit the crofters of Glasphein but any difficulties that may arise might best be dealt with by the Crofters Commission coming to an understanding with the tenants with whom arrangements have been made for purchase of holdings.

  Vivisection—Severing of Vocal Nerves.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the practice resorted to at laboratories where experiments are performed on dogs and other living animals of cutting the nerves of vocalisation before commencing the experiments in order to prevent their cries being heard; and, seeing that such practices are in contravention of The Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876, he will say what steps, if any, are being taken to prevent this additional and unnecessary pain to the victims of vivisection.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) If my hon. friend can give me particulars of any cases of the nature referred to
  1346
  I will at once have inquiry made, but I am informed that it is certainly not the practice in laboratories in this country to divide the nerves of vocalisation of animals before commencing experiments. I would remind him that no experiment involving a serious operation is allowed to be performed unless the animal is under the influence of some anæsthetic of sufficient power to prevent it feeling pain.

  Compulsory Enfranchisement of Copyholds.
  MR. PAUL: To ask Mr. Attorney-General whether he will consider the desirability of removing the inconveniences which result from the antiquated system of copyhold tenure by substituting the compulsory for the voluntary enfranchisement of copyholds.
  (Answered by Sir John Walton.) I have ascertained from the Lord Chancellor that he is not prepared at present take up this subject, or express any opinion upon it.

  Indian Famine Expenditure.
  MR. HART-DAVIES: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the present financial position of the Bombay Government, owing to a recurrence of famine years; and whether he will in future Provincial Settlements consider whether some arrangement would be devised by which the additional expenditure on account of local famines could be borne either by the Government of India, or by increased special allotments of the Provincial Governments.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The hon. Member will see from the Report (appended to the Financial Statement recently presented to Parliament) of the Proceedings of the Governor-General's Council on the 28th of March that the question raised by him was then discussed at some length, and that Mr. Baker, the member in charge of the Finance Department, stated that it is the intention of the Government of India to examine the matter thoroughly. I shall no doubt receive a communication

  1347
  on the subject from the Government of India, and it will have my careful consideration.

  Trades Union Wages in Royal Dockyards.
  MR. J. WILLIAMS BENN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the official inquiries into the question of establishing the trades union standard of wages in the Royal Dockyards are completed; and whether he anticipates being able to announce the decision of the Admiralty in this matter before Vote 8 of the Navy Estimates is taken.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The inquiries into the rates of pay of dockyard employees are completed. Proposals in regard to the wages, &c, of men of the various classes are now being formulated in connection with the workmen's petitions, and it is hoped that it may be possible to announce decisions in the matter before Vote 8 of the Navy Estimates is taken.

  Sale of Sir Algernon Coote's Estate at Rearymore, Queen's County.
  MR. DELANYTo ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners have sanctioned the sale of one division of Sir Algernon Coote's estate at Rearymore, Queen's County, and that the Kyle portion of the property has been offered to the tenants at twenty-three years purchase; whether he is aware that three tenants on this estate, who recently went into court, got reductions varying from twenty-six to forty per cent., which have been appealed against; and whether the Estates Commissioners will approach Sir Algernon Coote, with a view of effecting the sale of this estate.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that in August, 1905, agreements for the purchase of a portion of the estate referred to, including the townland of Rearymore, were lodged with them, but the portion in question has not yet been declared to be an "estate," and the advances have, therefore, not been sanctioned. The Commissioners have no knowledge of the number of years purchase at which the Kyle
  1348
  portion of the estate has been offered to the tenants, nor of the result of the fair rent proceedings. The Commissioners, however, will, when dealing with the question of declaring the lands to be an estate, consider whether the Kyle property ought to be included in the sale.

  Union Quay Co-operative Federation Society, Cork.
  MR. GILHOOLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the amount of money given the Union Quay Co-operative Federation Society, Cork City; whether it is usual to grant money to co-operative societies for trading purposes to persons who are not members of a co-operative society; and whether he can give the names of the members of this society.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Department of Agricultural and Technical Instruction have not made any payment to the society referred to, the correct name of which is the "Cork Co-operative Creameries Federation, Limited." The Department are informed that the members of this society are co-operative dairy societies which are federated with it for the purpose of having their butter churned; and that it is managed by a committee elected by the federated societies.

  Sale of the Clonfin (Thompson) Estate.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will direct the Estates Commissioners to enter into negotiations for the sale of the Clonfin (Thompson) Estate, for the benefit of Longford evicted tenants, with the firm of Messrs. McCredy and Sons, Solicitors, Dublin.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they will communicate with the firm of solicitors named on the subject of the sale of the estate in question.

  Delay in the Sale of the Cusack Estate.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, owing to the action of the receiver on the

  1349
  Cusack (county Longford) Estate, motions are being made to delay the sale of this estate to the Commissioners; and whether he can now state if action will be taken to acquire this estate for the benefit of county Longford evicted tenants.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The registrar of the Land Judge's Court informs me that the offer of the Estates Commissioners for the purchase of the Cusack Estate was brought before the Land Judge for consideration on the 11th instant. The case now stands adjourned for a fortnight in order to enable the solicitor having carriage of the sale to communicate with the Commissioners on the subject of certain conditions contained in their offer. The receiver repudiates the suggestion that he has taken any action calculated to delay the sale of the estate.

  Sale of the Maconely Estate.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in the case of the Maconely Estate, county Longford, the vesting orders to tenants will soon be issued.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received their Inspector's report on this estate, and have considered the same and issued queries upon it, but at this stage of the proceedings it would not be possible to say when the orders vesting the holdings in the tenants will issue. The case is being duly attended to, and the sale will be completed with as little delay as possible.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  H.M.S. "Montagu."
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state the approximate time H.M.S. "Montagu" went aground, by what time salvage work was started by the salvage company on board H.M.S. "Montagu," and what are the terms of the contract with this company in reference to payments.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): The "Montagu" went aground at 2.10 a.m. on May 30th. The salvage steamers which were chartered arrived on the night of the 31st, and started work next day. As regards the last part of the Question, it is not usual to publish the terms of current contracts.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, after H.M.S. "Montagu" wont aground, a salvage steamer proceeded to her assistance in the fog and was alongside H.M.S. "Montagu" within ten hours after she had gone ashore; whether her assistance was declined, and, if so, for what reason; and whether the damage to H.M.S. "Montagu" was not very much increased by the delay in salvage operations.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: When the salvage steamer in question reached Lundy, arrangements for the salvage of the "Montagu" had already been entered into with the Liverpool Salvage Association, who were considered most capable of carrying out this work. As regards the last part of the Question, it is not a fact that the damage to the "Montagu" was increased by the delay.

  Petty Officer Stewart's Pension.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the life pension of £12 per annum, granted from the 9th of July, 1902, to Petty Officer, Second Class, W. Stewart, No. 15,898, of Strangford, county Down, has been cancelled; and, if so, for what reason; and will he reconsider the case of this seaman who, after a naval service including reserve extending over a period of nearly 34 years, is now aged, infirm, and absolutely without other means of subsistence.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The pension granted to W. Stewart was not awarded to him as a "life pension." His age is 54, and in ordinary circumstances he would not have become entitled to any pension at all before reaching the age of 60. As it was certified in 1902, however, that he was incapacitated from contributing to his own support, the regulations enabled a temporary pension to be granted to him. His condition has now improved, and under the

  1351
  regulations applicable to his case, it was necessary to discontinue payment of the pension.

  Flour Supplies for the Fleet.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that a cargo of flour has been landed from England at Castle town Berehaven for the use of that portion of the Fleet manœuvring on the Irish coast will he say if any difficulty has been experienced at any time in getting a sufficient supply of flour from Irish firms for the use of the ships on the coast of Ireland; has any flour been brought from Ireland to English ports for the use of the Fleet; and whether, in view of the effect of this action on the Irish milling trade, steps will be taken to stop any further importation of flour from England to Ireland for the use of the Navy.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: A cargo of flour was recently landed at Berehaven from Deptford for the use of the Atlantic Fleet. The circumstances were exceptional, as the flour had been purchased in England for use at Gibraltar, it being understood that the ships would need to replenish before leaving for Home waters. Later on, however, the Admiral reported that it would be more convenient for the ships not to fill up until they reached Berehaven, but in the circumstances it was necessary to utilise the flour already available, as considerable expense to the Crown would have resulted from purchasing a duplicate quantity from Irish millers. In regard to the second point, our experience does not lead us to suppose there would be any difficulty in obtaining supplies of flour, in ordinary circumstances, from Irish firms to meet the requirements of ships on the coast of Ireland. In regard to the third point, I do not know of any such case, but if any Irish firms desire to tender for the requirements in this country, viz., at Deptford, Portsmouth, and Plymouth, they will be given opportunities of doing so. In regard to the last point, the circumstances in the present case were exceptional and are not likely to recur. In ordinary cases it is obviously more advantageous from every point of view to meet the requirements of the ships as far as possible from local resources, and this course will be followed.

  Wreck of the "Star of Hope."
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether the attention of the Admiralty has been directed to the unusual delay which occurred before the Collieston coastguard rendered assistance to the trawler "Star of Hope," which was wrecked on the Aberdeenshire coast last December, and in consequence of which three of the crew lost their lives; and whether they have made or intend to make an inquiry into the matter.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Inquiry has been made and action taken in consequence.

  Boscastle Coastguard Station.
  MR. STUART-WORTLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, whether the new coastguard station at Boscastle, in Cornwall, has been roofed with foreign slates; from what country were such slates imported; whether, in view of the fact that some of the most productive slate quarries in the United Kingdom exist within but a few miles of the site of this building, he will say whether any and what saving was effected by the use of foreign slates in this case.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. LAMBERT,): The slates used were Welsh, not foreign.

  Militia Sergeant-Majors' Pay.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can promise that if any increase of pay and pension is to be granted to warrant officers, Militia sergeant-majors will receive favourable consideration, in view of the fact that during annual training their duties are proportionately more onerous than those of line regiments.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,): The question of the emoluments of Militia sergeant - majors has been frequently raised and it has been decided to make no alteration. It may be pointed out that their work, taking all the year round, is less onerous than that of a sergeant-major of the line.

  Military Railway Staff.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether advantage has been taken of the experience gained in the South African campaign, and of the war between Japan and Russia, to construct a scheme whereby on the outbreak of war, if necessary, the working of railways will be efficiently carried out by a special military staff; and, if not, will he consider the advisability of instituting a department for the training of officers in the working of railways during war.
  MR. HALDANE: As the result of the experiences gained in recent war a railway branch has been formed as the War Office under the Quartermaster-General. The necessary organisation for the working of railways in time of war in concert with the civil railway staff is receiving careful consideration.

  Irishmen and the Army and Navy.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that a number of circulars have been recently posted in prominent places throughout the North of Ireland calling upon Irishmen to refrain from joining the Army, Navy, or Police forces; and if any steps have been taken to trace the source from which these circulars emanate.
  MR. HALDANE: My attention has been drawn to the matters alluded to, and I am not impressed with their importance.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: Is it an offence in law to advise a man not to go into the Army?
  MR. HALDANE: I cannot say.

  The Militia and Separation Allowances.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will recommend that Militiamen be granted separation allowance during annual trainings, as is permitted to men of the Army reserve when called up to do their reserve training.
  MR. HALDANE: I am afraid that no money is available to meet the very
  1354
  large expense which this concession would involve.

  Militia Mess Allowances.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the allowance of 6d. a day in lieu of rations in kind, which has hitherto been regularly allowed for years past to men employed in the officers' mess of Militia regiments during annual training, may be continued in the future.
  MR. HALDANE: It is not intended to change the past practice in regard to the issue of this allowance, and the point will be made clear in the regulations.

  Yeomanry Officers' Training.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the expenses to which Yeomanry officers are subjected during their annual training, for bands, subscriptions, and entertainments are regarded as burdensome by many officers; and whether, in view of the fact that these charges deter many young men from serving in the Yeomanry, he will represent to Commanding Officers the desirability of limiting those expenses as much as possible.
  *MR. HALDANE: It is the duty of all Commanding Officers of Imperial Yeomanry to endeavour to keep down the expenses of officers as far as possible; I doubt whether any good purpose would be served by a mere general official representation to this effect.
  MR. LONSDALE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the Companies of the London Imperial Yeomanry is heavily in debt in consequence of these expenses?
  *MR. HALDANE: I have no information as to that.

  Inspection of American Canned Meat Factories.
  MR. MOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the officer appointed to inspect the conditions under which meat is prepared in American factories has hitherto been an instructor in the Army Service Corps on forage supplies; and whether he holds the

  1355
  Birkenhead certificate for inspection of meat.
  *MR. HALDANE: Lieutenant-Colonel Hobbs has had seven years experience as Assistant and Chief Instructor in Army Service Corps duties, which include the inspection of forage, live cattle, preserved, frozen, refrigerated and dead meat, and has special expert knowledge of the subject. He holds a certificate of proficiency in judging meat from the sanitary authorities of the London Central Meat Market, which is similar in every respect to that now obtained at Birkenhead.

  Provision for Militiamen's Families.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to complaints made by boards of guardians in Ireland that in many cases the wives and and children of Militiamen are constrained to become paupers during the absence of the husbands at training; and whether, in view of the increase entailed on the rates, provision will be made for the families of such men by providing separation allowances.
  *MR. HALDANE: No complaints to the effect stated in the first part of the Question have been received. The expense involved by the provision of separation allowances would be very large, and no money is available for the purpose.

  Canned Meat for the British Army.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the refusal of the Committee of the House of Representatives on Agriculture, on the 13th instant, at Washington, to order the meat packers in the United States to label or stamp the date of manufacture on each article of food product sold by the packers, he will issue an Army order that in future every can of preserved meat supplied to the Army shall be plainly stamped with the date of its manufacture; and that in future all bottles, tins, or cases of preserved food bought by the military authorities, whether for issue to our soldiers at Home, in India, or in the Colonies, shall be indelibly stamped, labelled, or marked in a similar manner.
  *MR. HALDANE: My hon. friend is evidently unaware that it has long been a condition of the ordinary War Office contracts that tins of preserved food must have the date of canning visibly stamped on the inside.

  Army Hospital Stoppages of Pay.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether patients in military hospitals are required to do fatigue duties whether convalescent or not; and, if so, whether he will issue an Army Order to prevent the patients being ordered to do work of any kind, having in view the fact that all soldiers in military hospitals are placed under stoppages of pay to recompense the public for the loss of their services whilst under medical treatment, and that, if he cannot see his way to issue the order above referred to, he will see to it that no man will have any deduction made from his pay on the day he has done any work whilst in an Army hospital.
  *MR. HALDANE: The King's Regulations empower officers in charge of hospitals to employ on light duties, without extra pay, patients whom they consider able to aid the hospital establishment. Patients are never employed on the ordinary heavy work incidental to hospital routine, and not often on the lighter work authorised, which would be in the wards. The stoppages are intended to recompense the State for cost of maintenance and treatment.

  St. Helena—Withdrawal of Garrison.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has received a petition signed by the majority of the inhabitants of the Island of St. Helena, praying that the garrison may not be removed from the island; and whether he still adheres to the intention of withdrawing the troops in the autumn of this year.
  MR. HALDANE: A petition to this effect has been received. I should much regret it if the decision of the Army Council caused inconvenience to any of the inhabitants of St. Helena, but it is obvious that the Army Council ought not to recommend military expenditure which

  1357
  would burden the British taxpayer uselessly from a military point of view. It would be cheaper and better to make a direct grant of money. Whether this could be justified I cannot say, but my plain duty as a responsible War Minister is to reply to the last part of the Question put in the affirmative.

  Chicago Meat Supplies in the Boer War.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what was the quantity of Chicago canned meat that was supplied to the troops in South Africa during the late war; and what proportion of the mortality returns that were entered under the heading of enteric ought more properly to have been described as due to ptomaine poisoning.
  MR. HALDANE: Approximately, rather more than half the canned meat purchased came from the United States, but it is not possible to say how much Chicago meat was supplied to the troops in South Africa. Nothing is known of any cases classed as enteric which should have been described as ptomaine poisoning.

  British Garrison in Egypt.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any British troops are under orders to leave Egypt; and whether there is any intention to reduce the garrison there.
  MR. HALDANE: No British troops are under orders to leave Egypt; the future composition of the British army of occupation is now under consideration.

  Soldiers and Canned Meat.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any troops have, during the last twelve months, refused to eat rations of canned meat issued to them; and, if so, will he discontinue in times of peace the issue of rations of tinned meat instead of fresh meat to soldiers, whether serving at Home or abroad.
  MR. HALDANE: The only case of which the Army Council are aware occurred at Bulford. A sample of the meat in question is being examined by an analyst. Stocks of preserved meat are kept in store in reserve for war purposes,
  1358
  and these ought to be turned over to avoid loss to the public. The practice has been to make periodical issues to the troops to enable this to be done. If this can be carried out consistently with what is the foremost consideration—the health and well-being of the soldiers—the practice will be continued, but not unless investigation shows that there is no danger to be apprehended.

  Northern Nigeria Civil Service.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will arrange that in future the tour of service for the constabulary and political departments in Northern Nigeria be twelve months instead of eighteen months as at present, and so bring these services into line with all other departments, which have a tour of twelve months only.
  THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): The system by which officers of the political and constabulary departments are liable to serve for eighteen months (with a proportionate increase of leave in England) was adopted after careful consideration on the recommendation of Sir Frederick Lugard, and with the concurrence of the principal medical officer of the Protectorate, it being left to the discretion of the High Commissioner to grant leave to any officer after twelve months service if he should require it by reason of ill-health. Sir Frederick Lugard has not expressed any desire for the alteration of the system, and as at present advised the Secretary of State would not feel justified in requiring an alteration.

  Colonial Services Vote.
  MR. WALKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, when the Colonial Office Vote is put down again for discussion, he will arrange that it shall be preceded by the Colonial Services Vote, which was not reached on the 8th instant.
  MR. CHURCHILL: As the Colonial Office Vote provides the machinery for administering the Colonial Services Vote, it naturally and properly precedes it; but the wishes and convenience of the House

  1359
  must always regulate the choice of Votes under the Supply Rule.

  Motor Traction in Northern Nigeria.
  MR. WALKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies with reference to the suggested construction of railways in Northern Nigeria, which would facilitate the growth of cotton, whether the alternative of motor traction upon the roads which have been or are being constructed is also under consideration.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: The hon. Member makes a valuable suggestion. The possibility of employing motor traction in Northern Nigeria has been under consideration, and some experiments have already been made in this direction. We have not yet learned the result.

  South African Customs Convention.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the recent Customs Convention in South Africa, if carried into effect in the Transvaal, would be to seriously increase the cost of every necessary of life; that such taxation of food is contrary to the wishes of the people of the Transvaal, as shown by recent meetings of protest; and whether he will urge upon the Legislative Council the advisability of ascertaining fully the feeling of the people, more especially in towns like Johannesburg, before consenting to these new tariff' proposals.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: The increased duties under the new Customs tariff' come into effect on May 25th. The tariff' is higher than the previous one, but simultaneously with the increased duties there has been a reduction of railway rates which should have the effect of very largely neutralising the effect of the increased duties on the cost of living in the inland colonies. I have noticed that there has been a meeting of protest on the part of the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce. The Legislative Council is meeting this week and opportunity will be thereby afforded to members of it to express their opinions. It is an open secret that the continued existence of the South African Customs Union at the present time was bound to involve a higher tariff in view of the financial position of the coastal colonies. When the
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  Transvaal and Orange River Colony possess elective Legislatures, their authoritative voice can be expressed on the subject. Meanwhile the general opinion in the two colonies appears to have been clearly in favour of retaining the Customs-Union. The Convention can be denounced by any member of the Union giving one year's notice to date from June 30th in any year.

  Canadian Immigration Bounties.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what are the conditions which attach to the payment of the bounty to emigration agents by the Canadian Government in respect of emigrants from Ireland.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: The bonus is paid to such steamship booking agents as are recognised by the Canadian Immigration Department upon tickets for Canada sold in any part of the United Kingdom to persons whose occupation is, and has been for at least one year, one of the following, viz.:—farmers, farm-labourers, gardeners, stablemen, carters, railway section-men, navvies or miners, and who have signified their intention of following farming in Canada, and to female domestic servants.

  Gun Running in Zululand.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now state whether the Zulus engaged in the Natal rising are armed with rifles, assegais, etc., supplied by Birmingham firms; and will he say whether these arms were supplied to them in connection with the Boer War.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir; I have no more information on this subject than when I replied to the hon. Member on the 14th ultimo.†
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to investigate any cases of gun running that may be brought under his notice?
  *MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, any case of that kind will be rigorously followed up.
  MR. BELLOC: Have the rifles given to the natives during the Boer War been returned?
  † See (4) Debates, clvii., 176
  *MR. CHURCHILLasked for notice of the Question.

  Chinese Coolies in South Africa— Precautions against Crime.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Under-secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now state what were the precise recommendations made by the Committee, appointed by Lord Selborne, for the prevention of further outrages by the Chinese deserters from the gold mines, and which of these recommendations His Majesty's Government have decided to adopt.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The main recommendations of the Committee appointed to inquire into the control of the Chinese labourers, and the arrangements for dealing with desertion, were: That there should be a system of guarding the mine boundaries and the erection of physical barriers on such boundaries in the shape of wire fences: That an effective system should be instituted, in place of the present system of roll-call, for ascertaining from day to day the number and identity of labourers absent from work: That the European control on the mine premises be strengthened generally and in such a manner as to operate as a check upon the Chinese mine police and interpreters whose services the Committee consider cannot be entirely dispensed with: That in order to ensure better and more effective police control, the Witwatersrand area, as defined by the Labour Importation Ordinance, 1904, be contracted to the actual mining area and the towns situated on the line of Reef; That the known bad characters now employed on the mines be repatriated. His Majesty's Government are not able to sanction further restrictions either by legal enactment or by physical barriers, and are not, therefore, able to approve wire fences or the proposed amendment of the law for contracting the "Witwatersrand area. With these exceptions the recommendations are in process of being carried out as far as possible. Lord Selborne has informed the Secretary of State that regulations will be issued compelling every employer of Chinese labourers to employ at least five white men on each mine whose sole duty it will be to keep order among labourers and Chinese
  1362
  police and chock gambling and sale of opium in the compounds.
  VISCOUNT HELMSLEY: Is it not the case that up to now there have been no physical barriers of any kind in any of the mining areas?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I believe there has been no general system of circumvallation.

  Bambaata's Death.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government have received from Natal any official news of the death of the chief Bambaata; and whether, if they have, they will use their good offices with the Government of the Colony with a view to their facilitating a return of the natives to their allegiance.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State received a telegram from the Governor last Friday stating that Bambaata was killed in the fight on the 10th, and that his body was identified by his brother and many others. The Government of Natal is as deeply concerned as His Majesty's Government or the hon. Member himself to bring to an end a state of disorder and unrest which daily imposes upon the Colony a very heavy financial burden, and causes widespread anxiety and dislocation in all classes of society.

  Imprisoned Chinese Coolies.
  MR. MOND: I beg to ask the Under-secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state what is the number of Chinese coolies now imprisoned in the Transvaal.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I am not able to give the total number, but inquiry will be made at once by telegraph.
  MR. ASHLEY: Has any one ever heard of imprisoned coolies attending race meetings as the Chinese do in South Africa?
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Question obviously refers to coolies actually undergoing imprisonment.

  Conviction of Chinese Coolies.
  MR. MOND: I beg to ask the Under-secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the number of Chinese coolies convicted for offences of all descriptions, whether tried summarily or otherwise, since January 1st, 1906.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The total number of convictions for the first three months of the year was 4,446, of which 3,734 were cases of desertions and absence of various descriptions, being rather in the nature of breaches of regulations than criminal offences.

  Recruitment of Kaffirs for the Mines.
  MR. MOND: I beg to ask the Under-secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government are aware that the sole right to recruit Kaffirs is enjoyed by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association; whether they are prepared to put an end to this monopoly; and whether they will throw open recruiting of Kaffirs to other responsible persons or bodies.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Witwatersrand Native Labour Association is a voluntary union of all or most of the principal mine-owners to regularise and control the recruiting of native labourers for the mines. It occupies a commanding position so far as recruiting in British South Africa is concerned, and enjoys a practical monopoly in respect of British Central Africa and Portuguese East Africa. Although this arrangement constitutes a great improvement upon the "free recruiting" system which it has replaced, it is not itself without serious disadvantages. His Majesty's Government is not unwilling to permit recruiting on equal terms by other bodies, but their status, substance, and responsibility must be clearly established beforehand in each particular case, in order that there may be no risk of the natives being deceived by extravagant promises or ill-used on their way to the mines.

  Opium Smoking in China.
  SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information showing that instructions have been sent to the viceroys and governors of provinces in China to put into effect the proposals of Yuan Shih
  1364
  Kai, Viceroy of Chihli, to discourage and restrict the opium smoking habit amongst the officials and literate classes in that country.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,): His Majesty's Government have no information to this effect.
  SIR H. COTTONwas understood to ask if the right hon. Baronet would make inquiries.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Yes, if any information is sent me on which I can base them.

  The Macedonian Budget.
  MR. LYNCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Imperial funds out of which the Turkish Government have undertaken to make good all deficits in the Macedonian Budget will be applied for that purpose in conjunction with the revenues from the increased Customs duties, or only in the event of such revenues being insufficient; whether the Customs revenues will be applicable to meet military expenditure; and whether it will be permissible for the Turkish Government, after His Majesty's Government have given their consent to the increase in the Customs, the amount of which almost exactly equals the deficit in the Macedonian Budget, to apply the whole of the funds now absorbed by the deficit to the finding of the kilometric guarantee for the Baghdad Railway.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: (1) The Turkish Government have undertaken to make good any deficit in the Macedonian Budgetout of Imperial revenues generally. If the increased Customs duties are devoted to this purpose, the deficit to be made good from other revenues will pro tanto be diminished. (2) The proceeds of the increase of 3 per cent, in the Customs duties will, if the increase is agreed to, be applicable to the Macedonian Budget as a whole, of which the military expenditure forms a part. (3) For the last part of this Question I must refer the hon. Member to the first paragraph of the reply made to his Question on the 13th instant,† viz., that
  † See Col. 958

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  His Majesty's Government have no control over Turkish revenues, the allocation of which has not formed the subject of any agreement between the two Governments. But it is estimated that the increased Customs duties will fall considerably short of what is required to make up the deficit in the Macedonian vilayets, and, in view of the difficulty which already exists in meeting this, it cannot be assumed that, if assistance is given, large sources of Turkish revenue will automatically be set free for other purposes.

  Unrest in Russia.
  MR. THORNE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any representations will be made to the Russian Government as to the treatment by officials of the people in the Russian Empire before the British Fleet is sent on a visit of ceremony to Kronstadt, and further steps are taken to commit His Majesty's Government to definitely friendly arrangements with Russia.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Answer to the hon. Member's Question is in the negative.
  MR. THORNE: May I ask what is the object of the Government in sending a British Fleet to Kronstadt? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a boy of fourteen and a girl of eighteen have been publicly executed at Riga?
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has seen in the newspapers the telegram sent by five members of the Russian Duma to the effect that the massacres of the Jews are being continued and are being officially countenanced by the Government; and whether that is not sufficient cause for his Department to take action to influence the Russian Government to stop these outrages in the interests of civilisation?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I have seen the statement in the newspapers, but I have no official information of any kind with regard to the matter. With regard to the Question of the hon. Member for West Ham, the Admiralty are intending to send a Fleet for a cruise in the summer in the Baltic, in the course of which,
  1366
  according to present arrangements, the ships will visit German, Swedish, and Russian ports; and I think it is premature to assume that anything will occur that I would make it necessary to alter those arrangements.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEasked whether, in the event of these massacres being continued, orders would be given that the Fleet should not visit Russian ports to mark our disapproval.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I cannot add to the Answer I have already given.

  The Attack on British Officers in Egypt.
  MR. DILLONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he could give any information as to the cause of the recent affray between Egyptians and British officers; whether the British officers were in uniform and were engaged in the performance of any military duty at the time; by what tribunal it was proposed to try the Egyptians concerned in the disturbance; and whether the trial will take place in public?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The information which we have received hitherto states that, during a march of mounted infantry from Cairo to Alexandria, five British officers were attacked by natives whilst shooting pigeons in a village near Tantah. One officer has died from the effects of the injuries he received, and two others are badly injured. The actual cause of the attack has not yet been ascertained, and it is not known whether the officers were at the time in uniform. The matter will be dealt with under a Khedival decree of February 25th, 1895, which institutes a special tribunal to deal with crimes of violence against officers and men of the Army of Occupation. The meetings of the tribunal will be held in public. The facts of the case cannot be thoroughly known until the judicial inquiry has taken place.
  MR. DILLONasked whether the right hon. Gentleman proposed to allow these Egyptians to be sent before the special tribunal before it had been proved that the officers were in uniform and were engaged in the performance of military duties.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: That is a point on which we have not yet received full information. We cannot tell without inquiry how far that point would affect the question of the tribunal before which the case should come.
  MR. DILLON: Will the right hon. Gentleman direct the attention of the Egyptian authorities to that point?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: We are expecting more information. I will bear that point in mind.

  The Deportation of James Shuttle.
  MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that Shuttle, the ex-convict, one of the witnesses in the Hugh Watt's case, has got into trouble in Winnipeg, Canada, and to the indignation expressed in that town over the action of the British authorities in sending Shuttle to Canada without notifying the Canadian police; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  The following Questions also appeared on the Paper:—
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the man Shuttle, one of the witnesses in the case of Rex. v. Watt, and who was recently deported at the expense of the special Service Fund to Canada, has already come into collision with the Canadian law; and whether, before deporting at the public expense any other witness for the prosecution in this case, especially to British Colonies, he will inquire into his record.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the deportation of James Shuttle, one of the witnesses in the Watt case, to Canada has raised indignation in that country; whether, in consequence of popular feeling there against this action of His Majesty's Government, Shuttle has been forced to remove to the United States; whether His Majesty's Government have received any representations
  1368
  on the subject from the Government of Canada; and whether he recognises the objections to lending Government aid to the emigration of persons whose presence at Home is undesirable.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): In answering this Question I propose to deal also with the Questions of the hon. Members for South Hackney and North-West Lanark. I have seen a newspaper report of the occurrence to which the hon. Member refers, but I have no other information with regard to the matter. Shuttle had never been sentenced to penal servitude and was not under police supervision. In consequence of the evidence which he had given ho was unable to obtain employment in London and was exposed to molestation. It was thought right to assist him in making a fresh start in life. He went to Canada voluntarily. No conditions as to his remaining there were imposed upon him. Under these circumstances it was not, in my opinion, the duty of the police in this country to send notice to the Canadian police of the man's antecedents. No representations have been received from the Government of Canada on the subject, but should any representations be received full and, I think, satisfactory explanations will be at once given.

  Infantile Mortality.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the National Conference on Infantile Mortality and the speech there delivered by the President of the Local Government Board, in which he attributes infantile mortality and other evils largely to the employment of married women] three months before and six months after child-birth, he will consider the possibility of dealing at an early date with this subject.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The question is one attended by many difficulties both as regards the enforcement of, and the possible results of, such a prohibition as suggested; I am not prepared to deal with it immediately. I am, however, fully aware of the great importance of the subject, which has already been under consideration in connection with the

  1369
  Report of the Physical Deterioration Committee, and it will receive my attention in connection with any amending factory legislation.

  The Case of Hugh Watt.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is yet in a position to make any representation to His Majesty in reference to the sentence recently passed upon Hugh Watt; and, if not, whether he will be prepared to consider any further representations upon the subject.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I can only refer to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member for East Leeds on May 28th,† and add that any further representations which may be made on Watt's behalf will, of course, receive my careful consideration.

  Railway and Canal Commission.
  COLONEL LONG: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in filling up the vacancy on the Railway and Canal Commission, he will appoint some one practically aquainted with agriculture and the transport needs and difficulties of that national industry.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,): I am not at present able to make any statement on this subject.

  The Companies' Acts.
  SIR W. EVANS-GORDON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the growing practice among certain classes of limited liability companies of ignoring the Companies' Act, by omitting to call annual meetings and omitting to present annual Reports and accounts as required by the Act and their Articles of Association; and whether in the interests of investors and the commercial credit of this country, he proposes to take any steps either by Board of Trade inquiry or otherwise to enforce the law.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: My attention has been called to the omissions referred
  † See Cols. 69–70–71.
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  to in the Question, and I propose to consider the question of what Amendments in the Company Laws generally are desirable when I have received the Report of the Committee which is now sitting. I may add, for the information of the hon. and gallant Member, that I now understand that the Report may be expected almost immediately.

  Lighting of the Irish Coast.
  MR. FFRENCH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the correspondence which passed between the Great Southern and Western Railway Company of Ireland and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland upon the subject of providing gaslight buoys within two miles of Rosslare Harbour, where the route lies between Greenore Point and the tail of the South Bank, through a short channel over half a mile in width; whether oil-lighted buoys were tried in this roadstead and failed; whether he is aware that similar gas-lighted buoys have been placed for a longer distance on the opposite side of the Irish Channel at Fishguard; can he state why a style of lighting on one side of the same company's route cannot be maintained on the other; and whether, as the total expenditure for this work would only amount to £7,000 for erection and £200 per annum for maintenance, he will direct, in the interests of safe-guarding human life and giving facilities for the development of the Rosslare and Fishguard route to England, that this sum will be placed upon the next Lighthouse Estimates with a view to having these buoys erected immediately.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland has favoured me with copies of the letters addressed to him on this subject by the Great Southern and Western Railway Company. I understand that some six years ago an automatic lighted and whistling buoy was tried on the South Shear of Rosslare and failed. As regards the opposite side of the Irish Channel the Board of Trade sanctioned the erection of a lighthouse at Strumble Head, but this was considered desirable in the interests of general navigation, and the special use likely to be made of it by the steamers running between Fishguard and

  1371
  Rosslare was recognised by the Great Western Railway Company, who are contributing £2,000 towards the cost. I am not aware of any gas lighted buoys having been placed at the expense of the General Lighthouse Fund off Fishguard. A proposal to place such buoys off Rosslare Harbour was recently made by the Commissioners of Irish Lights, but neither the Trinity House nor my own advisers are of opinion that they are required in the interests of general navigation; and, in these circumstances, I am not prepared to sanction the placing of gas lighted buoys here at the expense of the General Lighthouse Fund.

  Foreign Meat—Alleged Deaths at Hull
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the Report of Dr. Robinson submitted to the Sculcoates (Hull) Board of Guardians on the 12th June inst., that there had been thirty-five cases of sickness with six deaths in the workhouse; will he state what was the cause of death; and what space of time did the doctor's Report cover.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): Perhaps I may be allowed to answer this Question. I have seen a copy of Dr. Robinson's Report, dated the 5th instant, in which he stated that during the previous week there had occurred in the workhouse a serious outbreak of diarrhœa and sickness, in all about thirty-five cases, of which number six had died. He attributed their deaths to that cause. He considered that the outbreak was occasioned by the consumption of certain frozen meat. I understand that the matter has been inquired into by a special committee of the guardians, who report that it was not proved to their satisfaction that the frozen meat was the cause of the outbreak. They further report that the meat was in a wholesome condition on delivery at the workhouse, but that it had not been kept under proper conditions. The guardians have not yet had an opportunity of considering this Report.

  Inspection of Imported Meat.
  *MR. STARKEY: I beg to ask the President of
  1372
  the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the insanitary conditions under which American meat is prepared for market, and to the fact that several persons are reported to have died recently at Hull from eating Argentine meat, he will at once take steps to have each consignment of foreign meat, in tins or otherwise, inspected on arrival in this country; and will he also cause a certificate to be issued showing the date of such inspection.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. I am not at present in a position to take the steps suggested by the hon. Member, but I am considering the necessity of obtaining further powers for dealing with food imported from abroad.

  Infantile Mortality.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will call the attention of the boards of guardians, by circular or otherwise, to the rate of infantile mortality in many districts throughout the country, and ask for their co-operation in reducing that mortality, especially by giving medical relief to infants whose parents are unable to provide it, without making such relief a debt.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have no reason to suppose that guardians are unwilling to afford medical relief for infants whose parents arc unable to provide it, nor have I any evidence to show that, where it is the practice to give medical relief on loan, persons properly entitled to receive relief are thereby deterred from applying for it. It does not at present appear to me necessary to send a circular to all boards of guardians as suggested, but if my hon. friend is aware of any particular cases of failure to give relief to the infants of parents unable to provide it, and ho will communicate the facts to me, I will further consider the matter.

  South Uist Postal Arrangements.
  MR. JOHN DEWAR: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the Island of Eriskay, in South List, has only three deliveries of letters in the week; and whether, having

  1373
  regard to the circumstances of this island, namely, that half the population are absent for six months in the year, earning their livelihood elsewhere, and of the importance of the correspondence, not only in the form of letters, but of remittances and parcels to the comfort and convenience of the district, he will reconsider the decision recently given, and endeavour to arrange that a daily delivery may be given.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): I will have further inquiry made into the question of increasing the frequency of the mail service to Eriskay, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result in due course,

  Cowper- Temple Teaching in Elementary Schools.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he can state in how many cases, if any, under Sections 8 and 9 of the Education Act of 1902, the Board of Education has had appeals for the erection of new elementary schools in areas already sufficiently supplied with provided school accommodation at the instance of parents who have expressed dissatisfaction with the Cowper Temple religious teaching provided by such existing provided schools; and in how many cases such new schools have been sanctioned.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,): The Board do not receive applications for now schools from parents, but from persons prepared to provide new premises. The number of such proposals received since the Act of 1902 is very large. Many of them, for one reason and another, have not been proceeded with; and it is thus impossible for me to say how many of the various proposals were occasioned by any dissatisfaction of parents with the teaching given in existing undenominational schools (if any) in the area. If we take into account, however, only those cases where a new school or enlargement has, in fact, been sanctioned by the Board on appeal, the point referred to by the hon. Member only arises, of course, in cases where the new building has been provided to give denominational education. Of these there have been twenty-
  1374
  five, of which, so far as I have been able to ascertain, eight were numerically redundant, that is to say, there was sufficient room in neighbouring schools to accommodate the children for whom the new building was to be provided, and therefore only those parents would presumably use the new schools who preferred the new denominational instruction given in them to the religious instruction provided in the neighbouring schools, whether council or voluntary, as the case might be. All of these eight now buildings were Roman Catholic, except two, both of which were Church of England. In the seventeen other new denominational schools or enlargements, I cannot say to what extent those conditions prevailed; but, so far as can be ascertained, there seems not to have been room in any existing schools within reach for the greater number, at all events, of the children who are accommodated in the now buildings. It is, therefore, impossible in these instances to make any deduction as to how far the parents of the children to be accommodated were dissatisfied with the Cowpor-Temple religious teaching.

  Cost of Elementary Education—Propor tions borne by Exchequer Grants and Local Rates.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether ho can state for the last completed financial year the percentage proportions of the cost of elementary education borne by Exchequer grants a id local rates respectively, in London, and in England and Wales, excluding London respectively.
  MR. BIRRELL: Taking the figures given in the statement, Cd. 2916, showing the expenditure of each local education authority under Part I. and Par. II. of the Education Act, 1902, recently presented to Parliament, which are, it must be remembered, not in all cases a trustworthy guide owing to incomplete periods, it appears that for the year ended March 31st, 1905, the proportion of Exchequer grants to total expenditure on elementary education was, in the case of London, 31·2 per cent., and the proportion provided from local funds was 68·8 per cent.; the same figure for England and Wales, excluding London, being 58·3 per cent, and 41·7 per cent.

  1375
  The local funds do not always consist only of rates. It would be, however, a mistake to suppose from these figures that London is the only local authority's area where the proportion of expenditure on elementary education from local funds is larger than that provided from Exchequer grants. There are between 50 and 60 other local authorities of which this is true in varying degrees. In Hastings, e.g., the figures are 35·7 per cent, and 64·3 per cent.; in Hove, 37·7 per cent., and 62·3 per cent.; in Barry practically the same; and in Bridlington 42 per cent, and 58 per cent.

  Transfer of Voluntary Schools—Govern ment Proposal.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education when he will put the House in possession of the proposed Amendment or new clause in the Education Bill by which owners of voluntary schools may be given an opportunity of transferring their schools, under arrangement, to the local education authority if they desire to do so.
  MR. BIRRELL: In view of the fact that the terms of such a clause as I foreshadowed must depend upon the shape that Clauses 3 and. 4, and possibly Clause 6, ultimately assume, I cannot undertake to put it on the Paper until those clauses have been disposed of in this Committee. I should, perhaps, remind the hon. Baronet that in his Question he refers only to one half of the suggested clause, whereas the proposal was inherently bilateral, involving an obligation upon owners to transfer schools when desired by the local authority, as much as upon authorities to take over schools offered to them.

  Religious Instruction in Provided Schools.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he can lay upon the Table any of the information respecting religious instruction at present given in provided schools, which has been repeatedly promised by the Government.
  MR. BIRRELL: An instalment of the Return, ordered by the House of Lords on this subject, comprising a considerable number of local authorities, is now
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  published and can be obtained from the Votes Office.

  Agricultural Education.
  MR. ASHLEY: To ask the President of the Board of Education what are the functions of the Board of Education with regard to higher agricultural education; and whether he will take any steps to remove the disadvantages arising from the conflicting jurisdiction of the Boards of Education and Agriculture in this matter.
  MR. BIRRELL: I cannot set out within the limits of an Answer to a Question all the various functions of the Board of Education in respect of higher agricultural education. The Reports and Regulations of the Board give the requisite information on the subject The Board of Education keep in as close touch as possible with the Board of Agriculture, and conferences take place between the two Departments on matters of common interest. I am not aware of any conflict of jurisdiction in practice, and any likelihood of it arising upon border-line questions is minimised by the harmonious relations which I hope and believe subsist and will continue to subsist between the two Offices.

  Sheepscab in Northumberland.
  MR. TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somersetshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board are aware of the dissatisfaction existing in Northumberland at the Sheep Dipping (North of England) Order of 1906; whether they are aware that the outbreaks of sheepscab in the county have averaged only 10 per annum for the last five years out of more than a million sheep; and whether under the circumstances the Board can withdraw the Order.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: We are aware that Northumberland is comparatively free from sheepscab at the present time, but the Board think that it would be unwise to omit the county from the area to which the Order applies. The Order does little more than render general the existing practice of the principal flockmasters in the county as regards the dipping of sheep.

  Danish Bacon Exports.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he is aware that the export of bacon from Denmark to the United Kingdom in 1905 was some 264,000 cts. less than in 1904; is the decrease to be attributed to a certain disease in the joints and consequent restrictions; will he say what amount of fresh bacon was exported from Denmark through private firms in 1905; and whether these exports consisted of infected pigs.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: The decrease in the export of bacon from Denmark to the United Kingdom in 1905, as compared with 1904, is approximately as stated in the Question. Steps were taken by the Danish Government to prevent the export of bacon from pigs suffering from rickets in February, 1905, but I am unable to state whether the decreased exportation is attributable to this fact, nor have we any information as to the amount or quality of the bacon exported from Denmark through private firms in 1905.
  MR. JOYCE: And during those years did disease exist among Irish pigs?
  SIR EDWARD STRACHY: I must ask for notice of that Question.
  MR. JOYCE: I can tell you it did not.

  Fires on Crown Lands.
  SIR ROBERT HOBART: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, having regard to the increase of fires in the New Forest, he is able to state what steps have been taken by His Majesty's Commissioners of Woods, at the request of the verderers, on behalf of the commoners, to burn certain districts to improve the pasture, and also for the protection of plantations; and whether, in addition, he can also furnish any Reports on the number of recent fires, caused by an incendiary or accident, mentioning the areas and the amount of damage done in each case, with special reference to the recent fire in Knightwood enclosure.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,): At the request of the verderers on behalf of the commoners the Crown Officers, assisted by some of the local commoners in each place, have burned, during the late spring: In the east district 173 acres, in the north district 770 acres, in the west district 150 acres; total 1,093 acres. This burning was spread over seventeen different places, the area burned varying from 3 to 250 acres. Similar areas were burnt last spring and also in former years. In addition to this the Crown burned, for the protection of certain plantations and the forest generally an area of 302 acres in the three districts. Fires caused by an incendiary or accident occurred in sixty-eight places, by which over 1,200 acres more were burned. Most of them were speedily extinguished by the watchers employed, but there were several of large extent—Hill Top 112 acres, Longdown 40, Shirley Holmes 200, Wilverley Plain 500, Hincheslea Wood 86. The extent of the fire at Knightwood enclosure, which was possibly accidental, was 75 acres. Considerable damage was done to the growing timber, but it is not possible to estimate it accurately at present.

  Members' Catering Arrangements.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, whether he is aware that a box containing food was recently sent from the kitchen to one of the dining rooms with the inscription "Armours, E. St. Louis, Chicago, Futhurth, Kansas City. Chickens"; and will he say whether any and what portion of the food supplied to Members comes from Chicago.
  *MR. JACOBY: In reply to the hon. Member, a box used for conveying cake, pastry, etc., from the kitchen to the Press gallery, bore the inscription of Armours, etc. I am having an inquiry made as to how this box came on the premises. No food of any kind, used in the House, comes from Chicago. The Kitchen Committee purchase food of the best quality only, which is supplied by reliable and respectable firms.

  Irish Magistracy.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland what are the property qualifications

  1379
  necessary in the case of gentlemen holding, or about to be appointed, to the commission of the peace for counties in Ireland; and will he say what are the fees payable to county officials by such gentlemen on their appointment to office.
  THE ATTORNEY - GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHERRY,): No property qualification is required by law for persons about to be appointed to the Magistracy in either Counties or Boroughs in Ireland. No fees are payable to county officials on the appointment of Magistrates, but by the Rules of Court made pursuant to the Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act, 1877, every Commission of the Peace must bear judicature stamps to the value of £6. The cost of these stamps must be provided by the person about to be appointed and is paid into the Revenue.
  MR. O'DOWD: Are the same fees charged in England?
  MR. CHERRY: I have no information on that point.

  County Down Postal Arrangements.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will arrange a daily postal delivery to and from Strangford, Cloghy, Kilclief, Killard, and Ballyhornan in place of the four deliveries per week, as at present, in view of the fact that the residents of those neighbourhoods have been accustomed for the past twenty years to have their letters delivered on the two days when the postman did not call by the coastguard-men at Killard, which station has recently been abolished.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: A delivery on every week-day is already afforded at Cloghy and in a part of Kilclief; but I regret to find that owing to the comparatively high cost of the existing service to the other places mentioned, I should not be justified in incurring the additional expenditure which would be involved by increasing the frequency of the post at those places.

  County Kerry Rural Postman's Pay.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the rural postman from
  1380
  Scartaglen to Knockreigh, county Kerry has to travel an average of eleven miles per day, and in consequence is unable to undertake any outside work to supplement his salary; and whether, seeing that this man cannot maintain his wife and family under the circumstances, he will consider the propriety of giving him some advance in his wages commensurate with the duties he has to perform.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: When this post was tested in 1904 the distance travelled by the postman was eight and three quarter miles, and the total length of his duty was three hours, but another test of the post will at once be made with the view of ascertaining whether an increase of the man's wages is justified.

  India and the Colonial Conference.
  SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in the representation of India at the next Colonial Conference in 1907, he will take into consideration the advisability of inviting not only a representative official of the Government of India to attend the Conference, but also a representative of the people themselves, chosen, if need be, by the Government from among the non-official members of the Legislative Councils.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): As at present advised we doubt the expediency of the course suggested, but it will be considered.

  Ex-Cabinet Ministers' Pensions.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the declarations made by the present holders of political pensions.
  The following Questions on the same subject also appeared on the Paper:—
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether the last political pension granted was given after the late Government had resigned.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask Mr. Chanceller of the Exchequer what is the amount of the income which is deemed by the Treasury so insufficient

  1381
  for an Ex-Minister as to justify the award of a pension under the Political Pensions Act, 1869.
  I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if there has been any refund from the estate of upwards of a quarter of a million sterling of the political pension awarded by Mr. Gladstone, on 12th August, 1869, to a colleague, who had been Judge Advocate - General for six years and President of the Poor Law Board for the same period, and under which £30,810 12s. 8d. was received by the pensioner; and if any representation has been addressed to his heirs on the subject.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: While replying to this and the following Question by my hon. friend perhaps I may be allowed at the same time to answer Questions 68 and 69 addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by the hon. Member for Central Sheffield. Section 7 of the Political Offices Pensions Act, 1869, which is an embodiment of a section of an Act of 1834, provides as follows—perhaps I had better read the exact words: "And whereas the principle of the regulations for granting allowances of this nature is and ought to be founded on a consideration, not only of the services performed by the individual to the State, but of the inadequacy of his private fortune to maintain his station in life; be it therefore enacted that from and after the passing of this Act, whenever any person shall seek to obtain any one of the pensions before mentioned, his application for that purpose shall be made in writing to the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury, to which he shall subscribe his name, and which shall contain not only a statement of the services performed by him, and the grounds on which such pension is claimed, but a specific declaration that the amount of his income from other sources is so limited as to bring him within the intent and meaning of this Act and the principle herein above declared, and without such declaration no pension as herein before provided or authorised shall be granted." The allegation of insufficient income is no doubt in each case supported by information satisfactory to the First Lord of the Treasury for the time being, who is asked to grant the pension, but this
  1382
  information is, of course, of a confidential character. I have not myself had any experience in the matter, as when I assumed office the whole number of these pensions which are limited by statute had been assigned to different beneficiaries under the late Government. The latest grant was made on the 5th of December, 1905, before the then Ministry hail surrendered the Seals of Office. With regard to the case of the former pensioner referred to by the hon. Member for Central Sheffield, no representation was made to the heirs for the refund of any part of the political pension awarded. I may mention that subsequently to the award of that pension a rule was made at the instance of Mr. Gladstone by which an applicant is further required to surrender his pension if at any time he should receive an accession of fortune.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked if the Government would support a Bill on the subject.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have not yet considered that, but if I am asked for my personal opinion, I say I am opposed to the system altogether.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I will repeat the Question this day week.
  MR. MORTONsaid his second Question had not been answered.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid ho did not know what particular act constituted resignation. The pension was applied for on December 1st and awarded on December 5th.
  MR. MORTONwished to know if resignations could be withdrawn before surrender of seals.
  SIR. H CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid that was a constitutional point he was not acquainted with.

  Division Methods.
  MR. LAURENCE HARDY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether there is any precedent for the suspension or alteration of the Rules of Procedure or Standing Orders regulating the public business of the House by the Government without an order of the House; and whether, seeing

  1383
  that in connection with the new method of taking divisions ancient usage has been departed from in several points, namely, the necessity for every Member who takes part in a division to be within the doors of the House when the Question is put if his vote is to be valid, the requirement that every Member should withdraw from the Chamber whilst the division is being taken, the compulsion upon every Member inside the House to vote in any division, and other points of the same character, he intends to give the earliest opportunity to the House to record its opinion upon the changes which have been introduced into its ancient procedure.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: There is in the new practice, which I understand to be experimental only, nothing which contravenes any of the Standing Orders. If it is found, as I believe it to be, generally acceptable, I think it would be desirable to embody it in a new Standing Order, and repeal the old Standing Orders which do not give a recognisable description of a division under the new plan. This can be done with other alterations of the Standing Orders which may be necessitated by the recommendations of the Procedure Committee.
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid the first part of his Question had not been answered.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: There is nothing against the ordinary practice and procedure of the House in what has taken place. I believe the regulations which were acted upon were of a mandatory kind and were imposed at the discretion of the Speaker or of the Chairman of Committees.

  The Late Mr. Seddon.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he will consider the desirability of making representations to the Rector of St. Margaret's, the official church of the House of Commons, with regard to the holding of a memorial service in connection with the late right hon. Richard Seddon, simultaneously with the funeral in New Zealand.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I understand that a memorial service is
  1384
  to be held to-morrow at St. Paul's Cathedral, and I conceive that this will afford an opportunity to those who desire to show their respect for the memory of Mr. Seddon, whose death we are all deploring.

  Scottish Estimates
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he is aware that, owing to a private Bill having been put down for Thursday last, only two and a half hours were available to private Members for the discussion of Scottish Estimates, after the Secretary for Scotland had made his opening statement; and whether he will set aside another day for Scottish Supply.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am afraid that at this period of the session it is very unlikely that another day can be given for Scottish Estimates. I will see, however, if part of a day can be found so as to restore the two and a half hours of which Scotland was deprived on Thursday.
  MR. PIRIE: Does the right hon. Gentleman think an average of six hours per session for the discussion of these Estimates—that having been the average for the last ten years—is adequate?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I quite agree it is not.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Why not suspend the eleven o'clock rule?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: If that means putting off the discussion of Scottish matters till the early hours of the morning I should not like to see it done.

  Worcester Election Petition.
  MR. BILLSON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether the Government intends at an early date to take the necessary steps for the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the extensive prevalence of bribery at the last election for the city of Worcester, reported by the election judges.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Yes, it is our intention.

  Workmen's Compensation Bill.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether in view of the fact that the Government have been three times defeated on the Workmen's Compensation Amendment Bill in the Standing Committee on Law, he can inform the House what course the Government propose to adopt as to the future conduct of the measure.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I can really see no occasion for making any statement such as the hon. Member asks for. So far as I am aware, nothing has happened to prevent the Workmen's Compensation Bill coming up in due course for the Report stage, when any alterations made in the Standing Committee may be considered on their merits.

  The Education Bill.
  MR. CHANNINGasked the Prime Minister whether, in fixing a time limit for the discussion of the several clauses of the Education Bill, he would also make arrangements, either by agreement with the various parties in the House or by the appointment of a representative committee, on which Mr. Speaker or the Chairman of Committees, or both, should sit, to secure that Amendments raising issues which it was essential to discuss adequately in Committee or on the Report stage should have precedence.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I quite appreciate my hon. friend's point, and agree with the object which he has in view as a general matter of procedure. But we cannot invent machinery for giving effect to what he desires for this occasion.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
MR. A. J. BALFOURasked what supply would be taken next Thursday.
SIR H. CAMPBELL BANNERMANsaid the Post Office Vote would be taken first on Thursday, and it would be followed by the Vote for the Board of Agriculture.

MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
Reported from the Standing Committee on Trade, etc., with Amendments.
Ordered, That the Report do lie upon the Table, and be printed. [No. 202.]
Ordered, That the Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee be printed. [No. 202.]
Ordered, That the Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 256.]

NEW MEMBERS SWORN.
Sir FREDERICK GEORGE BANBURY, Baronet, for City of London.
The Right Hon. ALFRED LYTTELTON, K.C., Borough of St. George, Hanover Square.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL PROCEDURE.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the consideration of business relating to the Education (England and Wales) Bill (Procedure), if under discussion at eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House):" — (Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman).
The House divided: —Ayes, 366 Noes, 86. (Division List No. 124.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Asquith.Rt. Hon. HerbertHenry

Barlow, Percy (Bedford]

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Astbury, John Meir

Barnard, E. B.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Barnes, G. N.

Agnew, George William

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Alden, Percy

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Armitage, R.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Beale, W. P.

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Barker, John

Beauchamp, W.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somers't

Beauchamp, E.

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Beck, A. Cecil

Donelan, Captain A.

King, Alfred John(Knutsford)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Duckworth, James

Kitson, Sir James

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

Laidlaw, Robert

Benn, John Williams(Devon p'rt

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.)

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Bennett, E. N.

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lambert, George

Berridge, T. H. D.

Erskine, David C.

Lamont, Norman

Bertram, Julius

Essex, R. W.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Everett, R. Lacey

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Bethell, T. R. (Essex. Maldon)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Billson, Alfred

Fenwick, Charles

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Ferens, T. R.

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

Blake, Edward

Ffreneh, Peter

Lehmann, R. C.

Boland, John

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Bottomley, Horatio

Findlay, Alexander

Levy, Maurice

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Flynn, James Christopher

Lewis, John Herbert

Brace, William

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Bramsdon, T. A.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lough, Thomas

Branch, James

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lundon, W.

Brigg, John

Fullerton, Hugh

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Furness, Sir Christopher

Lynch, H. B.

Brooke, Stopford

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen)

Ginnell, L.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Glendinning, R. G.

M'Callum, John M.

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Crae, George

Burke, E. Haviland-

Grant, Corrie

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

M'Killop, W.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Grove, Archibald

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.

Byles, William Pollard

Gulland, John W.

M'Micking, Major G.

Cairns, Thomas

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Maddison, Frederick

Caldwell, James

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Mallet, Charles E.

Cameron, Robert

Halpin, J.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hammond, John

Mansfleld, H. Rendall(Lincoln)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

Marnham, F. J.

Chance, Frederick William

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hart-Davies, T.

Massie, J.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Masterman, C. F. J.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Meagher, Michael

Clancy, John Joseph

Haworth, Arthur A.

Meehan, Patrick A.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Hayden, John Patrick

Menzies, Walter

Cleland, J. W.

Hazleton, Richard

Micklem, Nathaniel

Clough, W.

Helme, Norval Watson

Molteno, Percy Alport

Clynes, J. R.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Mond, A.

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Henry, Charles S.

Mooney, J. J.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hogan, Michael

Morrell, Philip

Cooper, G. J.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Morse, L. L.

Corbett, CH(Sussex, E. Grinst'd)

Hooper, A. G.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.

Murphy, John

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Murray, James

Cowan, W. H.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Myer, Horatio

Cremer, William Randal

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Napier, T. B.

Crombie, John William

Hyde, Clarendon

Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncaster

Crosfield, A. H.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Nolan, Joseph

Crossley, William J.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Norman, Henry

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.)

Jardine, Sir J.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

Nuttall, Harry

Delany, William

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Joyce, Michael

O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Kearley, Hudson E.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Kekewich, Sir George

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Dillon, John

Kelley, George D.

O'Doherty, Philip

1388

1389

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Thompson, J. W. H(Somerset,E.

O'Dowd, John

Rose, Charles Day

Thorne, William

O'Hare, Patrick

Rowlands, J.

Tomkinson, James

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N.

Russell, T. W.

Torrance, A. M.

O'Mara, James

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Toulmin, George

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Samuel, HerbertL. (Cleveland)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Palmer, Sir Charles Mark

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Ure, Alexander

Parker, James (Halifax)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Verney, F. W.

Partington, Oswald

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Vivian, Henry

Paul, Herbert

Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Paulton, James Mellor

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

Wallace, Robert

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Sears, J. E.

Walters, John Tudor

Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)

Seaverns, J. H.

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Perks, Robert William

Seddon, J.

Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Seely, Major J. B.

Wardle, George J.

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Waterlow, D. S.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Watt, H. Anderson

Power, Patrick Joseph

Simon, John Allsebrook

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Weir, James Galloway

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Whitbread, Howard

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford.E.)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Radford, G. H.

Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim,S.)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Soares, Ernest J.

Whitehead, Rowland

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Steadman, W. C.

Wilkie, Alexander

Redmond, John,E.(Waterford)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Rees, J. D;

Strauss, B. S. (Mile End)

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

Renton, Major Leslie

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt' n)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Wilson, Hon. C.H. W. (Hull.W.)

Richardson, A.

Sullivan, Donal

Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.,N.)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Summerbell, T.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Sutherland, J. E.

Winfrey, R.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Woodhouse, Sir J T.(Huddersf'd

Robertson, Rt. Hon. E. (Dundee

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Tennant Sir Edward(Salisbury)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Robinson, S.

Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen,E.)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thomas, SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Thomasson, Franklin

NOES

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cross, Alexander

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Doughty, Sir George

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO.

Du Cros, Harvey

Liddell, Henry

Ashley, W. W.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Balcarres, Lord

Faber, Capt. V. W. (Hants, W.)

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.

Fardell, Sir T. George

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin. S.)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Fell, Arthur

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Forster, Henry William

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gordon, Sir W. Evans-(T'rHam.)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Bowles, G. Stewart

Haddock, George R.

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd)

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Heaton, John Henniker

Morpeth, Viscount

Carlile, E. Hildred

Helmsley, Viscount

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.

Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

Parkes, Ebenezer

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Hills, J. W.

Percy, Earl

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Hodge, John

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Jowett, F. W.

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E)

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Craik, Sir Henry

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

1390

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Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Turnour, Viscount

Younger, George

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and

Snowden, P.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Starkey, John R.

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Viscount Valentia.

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart.

Thornton, Percy M.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (PROCEDURE).
THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): In moving the Resolution which stands in my name, I shall endeavour to state frankly, and as succinctly and clearly as possible, the grounds upon which I recommend it to the House. On entering on the e last stage of the ordinary session of Parliament—a period at which we have arrived—it is natural for us to review the progress that has been made and consider not the claims and possibilities of individual Bills—the pruning and thinning and weeding process arises at a later period of the session—but the general position of business. In my opinion, no diagnosis of this sort can be even tolerably accurate which does not recognise and take into account a circumstance which is a powerful factor in the situation—namely, the growing reluctance to continue the sittings of Parliament after the month of July. Some of us who are old Members—and if anyone can say that of himself I can—are no doubt so habituated to the old times and seasons, the old periods into which we have been accustomed to divide the session of Parliament, the old manner of transacting business, that we are apt to continue, from pure habit, the traditional disposition of our time without concerning ourselves to consider whether it is the best disposition possible. But many among these Members of long standing have come to think that a change is both desirable and necessary, and those who hold that opinion have been largely reinforced this year out of the ranks of the new Members. No one who keeps his eyes and ears open can doubt that it is so; and the main feature of this change of view is a growing, and as I believe, a justifiable reluctance to sit through August and September. For my part, I fully accept that view. Indeed, I am not sure that it may not lead to further changes, before we are much older, in the disposition of our time—to the great change whereby the Parlia-
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mentary year will commence with an autumn session, which will be wound up in July. I remember that many years ago—thirty years ago, I should say—the House of Commons actually passed a Resolution to that effect at the instance of Sir George Trevelyan; but that expression of opinion remains a mere Resolution, because it was found that the administrative difficulties in the way were very great, and from that date to this nothing has been done in that direction. I merely mention it as a further possible development upon which I need not at present enter. What we propose for this year is that there shall be an adjournment over those months which, as far as my observation goes, are regarded as holiday months in every country in Europe, namely, August and September, with a sitting in the autumn to conclude the business of the year. This decision leads, naturally, to a consideration of the business which the House of Commons has at present on hand. That business is of great importance, but not, as it seems to me, excessive; certainly not beyond the desires of the country, and, I believe, of this House, and certainly not beyond the powers of Parliament if the order of business is reasonably and efficiently arranged. The view is sometimes entertained, and even expressed, that we have too much legislation; that legislation is a bad thing, and that Liberal legislation is an especially bad thing. While I would not interfere with those who entertain that opinion, I would say of it this, at least, that it can hardly be put forward on an occasion like this as the standard of our legislative action. If, then, we are to contemplate an autumn session, how can we best dispose of the time which is afforded to us? This has been, in many respects, an extremely active, busy, and useful session already. I refer specially to the work done by Grand Committees— the Merchant Shipping Bill and the Workmen's Compensation Bill, which have occupied an immense amount of time and labour, and it would surely be a monstrous thing if we were to allow all that labour

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to be thrown away and all that time to be wasted. But, after all, the principal Bill of the session is this Education Bill, which is a measure of first importance, of considerable complexity and difficulty, but not of great extent or great length. The Bill seeks to obtain from Parliament a decision on a problem which for the last four years has been constantly discussed in the country, and has occupied the mind of the country—a question which is ripe—indeed, over-ripe—for settlement. This question of religious teaching in elementary schools has been discussed and re-discussed, and although there may be hesitation as to the particular I modes and methods of applying the principle underlying the Bill, on the principle itself not only have the minds of politicians been for the most part fixed and made up, but it is not too much to say that the country has pronounced its verdict upon it. The House of Commons is, therefore, to an extent most unusual in cases of measures of the kind, equipped and informed, and in all respects competent to give its conclusions without prolonged delay. We can claim, without in the slightest degree disparaging the importance of the Bill, that it is not a measure for which an unlimited amount of discussion would be justified, if we are to have any regard to the efficiency of Parliament in the discharge of the duties for which Parliament, after all, exists. If the discussion on the Bill must inevitably be restricted—and does any one doubt that it must be restricted t—has any one attended the debates during the last few weeks without knowing that such restriction must be applied? If it is to be done I pass to the question—What course must be taken in order to accomplish that restriction? There are two courses open. We might with a fair show of patriotic patience allow the proceedings in Committee to drift along from day to day, and from week to week, unimpeded, while trifling, unimportant details are being exhaustively discussed, and then, at last, we might be forced to interfere and arrest discussion, with the consequence that most important matters are either slurred over or decided upon without being considered at all. The other course is this—that when the Bill has been long enough before the Committee to let us see what the tendency and character of the debates are likely to be, we should take a calm survey
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of the work which the proper consideration of the Bill involves, and estimating the comparative value of each of its provisions, and the different clauses and the different Amendments as best we may, allot to them and to their discussion and amendment such time as their respective importance would seem to justify. That is the course which we are following; and I venture to claim for it that it is at once the fairest from the point of view of the critics and opponents of the Bill, and also the most likely to redound to the business-like transaction of the work of the Committee on the Bill, and to the production of the most effective measure. I do not disguise that I intensely dislike these irregular interferences with the full liberty of debate, for irregular they are so long as they are on their present footing. I should be very foolish if I were to attempt to disguise that fact, because I should have acts and words of my own thrown at me the moment 1 did so. But, surely, the day has gone by when questions such as this are to be dealt with by mere tu quoque across the floor of the House. [Laughter.] I think that those who laugh will find that, while I objected to the manner in which the thing was done, I never denied that a Government were justified in taking some such course. These interferences are necessary in the absence of any considered and systematic and established method of ordering the course of business. Who can deny that they are necessary? For my part I believe that the difficulty of finding what I call a well-ordered and established course of proceeding in a case such as this is not so great as we have sometimes thought; and as we have begun the discussion and amendment, in many particulars, of the procedure of the House of Commons, I hope that we may be able, when we have dealt with the matters immediately in hand at present, to propose a means of escape from the irregular and somewhat autocratic expedients, an example of which I am now submitting to the House. I prefer that it should not be left to the Government of the day to parcel out the time of discussion in Committee, or estimate the importance of this or that clause, or this or that Amendment, and I look forward to the time when the House will accept some proposal to refer the matter to a tribunal composed of its own Members, of

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such authority and unquestionable impartiality that its decisions will earn the ready acceptance of all parties and sides in the House. But at present we can only use the instrument we have to hand, we can only follow the course which is open to us; and therefore I submit with confidence to the House that the present is a case in which interference is necessary. If the scheme that we submit in my Resolution is adopted, it will only just permit of this Bill passing to the other House of Parliament in the latter days of July; so that any considerable delay or departure from the scheme, which would involve the expenditure of a larger amount of time, would throw us into August, and thus impair the advantage of the autumn recess: and I trust that, having regard for its own reputation as a business assembly, the House will accept the scheme which it is now my duty to propose.
Motion made and question proposed, "That the Committee stage and Report stage of the Education (England and Wales) Bill, including the Financial Resolution relating thereto, shall be proceeded with in the following manner:—(a) That the remaining part of Clause 2 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the first allotted day; (b) That Clause 3 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day; (c) That three allotted days be given, if required, to Clauses 4 and 5 and the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the third of these allotted days; (d) That Clauses 6 and 7 and the Report stage of the financial resolution be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next-allotted day; (e) That three allotted days be given, if required, to Clauses 8 to 13 and any Motion which may be made to leave out Part II. of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the third of these allotted days; (f) That two allotted days be given, if required, to Part III. of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the second of these allotted days; (g) That Part IV. of the Bill be proceeded with,
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and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion, on the next allotted day; (h) That the remaining Clauses of the Bill and the Schedules, and any new Government Clauses, and any new Government Schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, be proceeded with and brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day; (i) That three allotted days be given to the Report stage of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the third of these allotted days. After this Order comes into operation, any day shall be considered an allotted day for the purposes of this Order on which the Education (England and Wales) Bill is put down as the first Order of the Day. A Motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown to leave out Part II. of the Bill, or to leave out any Clause of the Bill, before the consideration of any Amendments to that Part or Clause in Committee. The Question on a Motion moved by a Minister of the Crown to leave out Part II. of the Bill or to leave out any Clause of the Bill shall be put forthwith by the Chairman or Speaker without debate. At 10.30 p.m. on any allotted day on which proceedings on any allotted business are to be; brought to a conclusion, or if the day is a Friday, at 4.30 p.m., the Chairman or Speaker shall if those proceedings have not already been brought to a conclusion put forthwith the Question or Questions on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice has been given (but no other Amendments), and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted business to be concluded, and in the case of Government Amendments or of Government new Clauses or Schedules, he shall put only the Question that the Amendment be made or that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill, as the case may be. At 11 p.m. on the day on which the Third Reading of the Bill is put down as first Order, or, if that day is a Friday, at 5 p.m., the Speaker shall put forthwith any Question necessary to conclude the proceedings on that stage of the Bill. Proceedings to which this Order relates shall not on any allotted day on which proceedings on any allotted

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business are to be brought to a conclusion under this Order, be interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House. After the passing of this Order, on any day on which any proceedings on the Education (England and Wales) Bill stand as the first Order of the day, no dilatory Motion on the Bill nor Motion for Adjournment understanding Order 10, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by a Minister of the Crown, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith without debate. Any Private Business which is set down for consideration at 8.15 p.m. on any allotted day, or on the day on which the Third Heading of the Bill is put down as first Order, shall, instead of being taken on that day as provided by the Standing Order "Time for taking Private Business," be taken after the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill for that day, and any Private Business, so taken may be proceeded with though opposed, notwithstanding the Standing Order "Sittings of the House."—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think nobody who listened to the speech of the Prime Minister will be disposed to deny that the promise he made in his first sentence has been fully and amply kept. He told us that he meant to be concise, and concise his statement certainly was. But I venture to suggest it was conciseness purchased by the adoption of the simple expedient of never approaching the real matter at issue between the two sides of the House, or justifying in the slightest degree a departure from the practice of this House, which the right hon. Gentleman admits to be in itself regrettable, which he says, to my great surprise, he did not object to in principle, or oppose when it was moved by another Government, and which everybody hitherto has regarded as requiring ample and detailed justification on the part of those who proposed it. What did the right hon. Gentleman say? He made a eulogy of autumn sessions. I do not propose at the present time to discuss whether our Parliamentary labours could be better distributed annually so as to leave clear August, September, and, I hope, part of October —though October was a month wholly ignored by the right hon. Gentleman—
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all the rest of the year, I presume, being occupied with legislative labours; or whether the traditional method of carrying on our business with all its objections would not be best. The right hon. Gentleman himself is aware that to make the change which Sir George Trevelyan proposed would involve an enormous alteration in our ordinary national machinery of government. It would require a change in a great many statutes, and would, I believe, carry with it of necessity an alteration of the financial year of the country, entailing a fundamental alteration in all our statistics. That may be a good or a bad plan; it has much to recommend it; but it would be very difficult to carry out. It is open to one objection which the right hon. Gentleman is especially in a position to understand. If the Government is never to have any months free from the daily burden of Parliamentary responsibility, the time they can utilise for the quiet and laborious consideration of the very difficult problems which they have taken in hand will be very seriously curtailed. I doubt whether that will conduce to sound legislation. Though that subject occupied quite half of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, it is not the subject we are here to-day to discuss. The question is whether the Government have given adequate time for the Committee, Report, and Third Reading stages of the Education Bill. The fact that the Government mean to ask the House to assemble after August and September seems to me not so much a reason for hurrying on the consideration of this Bill as a reason why decent time should be afforded us for its consideration. When, after thirty-eight days in debate, the Education Bill of 1902 was brought to a termination by a closure resolution, that Resolution was so framed that a House which had sat from February, with brief intervals, should be able to finish its labours before Christmas. That was a motive, not the sole motive, but an adequate motive for asking the House to expedite its business. But to come to us in June and say the Government mean to have an autumn session, and that we must therefore now put on the gag—
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The gag?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Well, the closure—that surely is the greatest legislative non sequitur which was ever propounded from the Treasury Bench. The right hon. Gentleman does not appear in the least to appreciate what are the objections to his measure, not based on considerations of Parliamentary tradition, but on the necessities of this Bill. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman both in deprecating the necessity of such closure resolutions as this and in admitting that closure resolutions are occasionally necessary. No Government can allow its principal measure of the session to be defeated merely by lapse of time. The debate might be legitimate, it might run counter to no rule, and yet it might be so prolonged that the Government would find, after months of arduous labour, that they had accomplished nothing, and must begin the task again in the succeeding session. I do not quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman because he thinks that part of our machinery, to be used on rare and exceptional occasions, must consist of closure resolutions. I go further, and say that, looking at the thing as a question of abstract propriety of procedure, I do not lay down as an absolute rule that these closure resolutions should not be moved at a relatively early stage of the Bill under discussion. That carries, however, as a corrollary that in the resolutions thus laid down at an early stage—and we have only been six days in Committee— time should be given by the Government, who have our proceedings in the hollow of their hand, adequately to discuss all the proposals they submit to us. They are bound also to assist our discussions by making those proposals clear and unambiguous. Neither of these conditions is fulfilled on the present occasion. They have not given us adequate time to discuss the various clauses of this Bill. Both the policy which it is intended to advocate and the Amendments which the Government propose to introduce are still obscure and unknown. We are asked to closure, not a Bill we know, but a Bill regarding which as yet the Government, either because they do not know it themselves, or for some other reason, have carefully abstained from giving us adequate information. I want to argue this in a business manner. Consider what the suggestion of the Government is. I will take first a part
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of the Bill which does not deal with the religious difficulty at all, or only in a very secondary and indirect manner. To Part III. of the Bill two days only are allowed. That part deals with a series of complicated problems in local government which touch the local administration in every area of the country and raise questions of the utmost difficulty. I will mention one or two. The term of borrowing of local authorities is extended by a Government which is horrified at a system of loans, especially at a system of extended loans when they are Imperial in character. Not content with that great change in our local government system, the Government abolish the limitation of the 2d. rate for secondary education. The 2d. rate may possibly have been an improper limitation, but it is a limitation which those interested in local economy regard as of great importance. They know that the amount which an enthusiastic education authority can spend on education is almost unlimited, and, however valuable may be the results of such expenditure, they think the 2d. rate is an important safeguard of public finance, and ought not to be abolished after a discussion of two days, so much of which will be occupied by matters of almost equal importance. As if that were not enough for two days there is the abolition of the register for teachers, the reversing of a policy deliberately adopted by Parliament, which has been carried to great lengths at a cost of great labour on the part of experts. That change, too, ought not to be made except after full discussion. Finally, there is a clause with the intentions of which I personally have the greatest sympathy. It is a clause a subsection of which gives power for the making of such arrangements as may be sanctioned by the Board of Education for attending to the health and physical condition of the children educated in public elementary schools. That, I suppose, includes gratuitous feeding of school-children out of the rates and may include other proposals of a far-reaching character, and about which we have no information concerning what the Government desire. The Government propose to deal with that, along with the other subjects of which I have spoken, in two days. That is derisory. If the Government brought in a separate Bill to deal with the topics touched on in Part III., they would no more dare to say that the

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the Committee stage of such a measure should be restricted to two days than they would imitate Oliver Cromwell and order that bauble to be removed. That is a non-religious, and therefore relatively uncontroversial, part of the Bill. The same may be said of finance. We know nothing about the Government finance of this measure. The hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education made an amiable speech the other night, but he threw no light upon it; and there is not a man in this House who really knows on what principle the Government are going to distribute the million of money, or has the smallest idea of what the policy of the Government, is with regard to a fair rent for voluntary schools. That is a point which the Government must have considered. They must have plenty of typical cases of Church of England, Wesleyan, or Roman Catholic schools which they have considered. They must have considered whether a school bound down by trust deeds to give religious education according to some denomination, which has spent so much on its buildings, whose buildings would take such and such a sum to replace— whether the owners of such schools are not entitled probably to such and such a rent per child in average attendance. They must have considered the point, but they have never given us a hint of what they are going to do. They have protested to their Nonconformist friends that, as these schools are held under trust, the amount of money to be paid must needs be trifling and that they are to be got on the cheap. They have suggested to the Church of England that a full and fair remuneration will be given by the local authority. They have played to each side in turn, but they have not told the House of Commons what their plan is. Can we be asked, or expected, to deal with finance in an hour or two until we know what, in truth, the Government plan is? Then there is Part IV., which, as hon. Members know, gives administrative Home Rule to Wales in educational matters. That subject, which touches not only education, not only the rights of minorities in Wales, but also the very essence of our constitutional practice —that clause is to be dealt with in one day. It is not even as if the clause was, or was intended to be, a complete account of the designs of the Govern-
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ment. We do not know what the designs of the Government are. We know they mean to amend the clause, because, through one of those un-authorised channels which are the favourite method by which the Government indicate their attentions to the House of Commons, the author of this particular Bill has announced that he is prepared so to modify it that controversial matter may be excluded from the purview of the now administrative and rating authority which it is supposed to create. But nobody knows how that is to be done. I have great doubt if it can be done, and in any case we have nothing but the bare canvas with a few charcoal lines rudely sketched upon it, which the House of Commons is intended to fill up in the course of the single sitting to be devoted to the subject. Can that be regarded as sufficient? The Government have not told us, but they have told the people of Northampton that they mean to drop Part IV. I gather from the Resolution, not only that they do not intend to drop Part IV., but that if the.Resolution is carried, it will prevent them from doing so. It is ludicrous to ask the House to discuss Part IV. in one day. It makes our Parliamentary proceedings an utter absurdity, and I should have thought that the best plan would be to allow Part IV. to follow Part II., and to devote the day that was to be devoted to its discussion to the other parts of the Bill. This clause leaves almost everything to an Order in Council. Are they going to lay that Order in Council before they proceed to consider Part IV 1 If not, we shall be in absolute darkness. We know that it confers on county councils in Wales enormous powers, that it involves three sets of inspectors, and that it removes from Parliament all control over the money the taxpayers of England, Scotland, and Ireland vote. How these enormous powers are limited, how they can be exercised—on all these subjects the Government keep us in darkness, either because they themselves are walking in darkness or because they think that the loss the House of Commons know the greater chance there will be of passing their proposals. I come now to Clauses 3, 4, and 5, for which, I think, in all four days are allowed, in which four days is to be included the consideration of the financial Resolution

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I would remind the House that these clauses have their analogue in what are now, I think, Clauses 6 and 7 of the Act of 1902. Those were the clauses which arranged for the control of voluntary schools and for the assistance given them out of the rates. They undoubtedly aroused feelings of strong animosity among certain sections of the community; but, after all, they took away nothing from anybody. They might have been right or they might have been wrong—I think they were right—but, at all events, they were not part of a scheme for taking away from a single individual or a section of the community, or any body of trustes, anything they possessed. But these Clauses 3, 4, and 5 are part of a scheme by which you take away from the trustees or managers of every voluntary school and from the parents of every child in every district where there is a voluntary school something which they have always enjoyed and for which, under these clauses, I suppose you mean to give some return. You give less than four days for the discussion of these three clauses. What did the House of Commons do for the corresponding clauses in the Act of 1902? They took nearly twenty days. Day after day, week after week, the house was allowed to discuss—and properly allowed to discuss — those matters which aroused such burning interest in every section of the community; and why, Sir, are those who made the country ring with their denunciations of the tyranny exercised by the late Government in the House of Commons— why are they coming down to this House and, in connection with clauses which, believe me, arouse every bit as much animosity in the country as Clauses 6 and 7 of the Act of 1902 ever did, allowing instead of twenty days only a paltry four days? I cannot imagine the right hon. Gentleman with the memory of his own speeches before him—if he has any memory for his own speeches— coming down and making this proposal to the House. It was after we had been thirty-six days in Committee that he begged us to go over Christmas and allow the Bill of 1902 to go through without any closure Resolution. And now he comes down and suggests a course which the most tyrannical of his predecessors never would have suggested for an instant. I am not sure that the Government fully realise how deeply we
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on this side of the House feel the difficulties they have gratuitously brought upon us by keeping us in ignorance of the real character of their proposals. In regard to Clause 4, we do not know whether it is to be mandatory or not. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education told my right hon. friend the Member for Oxford University that he was not going to put his new Amendment on the Paper until we had finished with Clause 6, because he did not know what form it would take until we had finished Clauses 3 and 4. But how are we to discuss Clauses 3 and 4 before we know the form of the Amendment? Are we to be perpetually referring to hypothetical propositions and vague suggestions when the right hon. Gentleman has the Amendment in his pocket but will not give it us lest we should discuss Clauses 3 and 4 in the full light of the Government plan? Is not that a bitter aggravation of the limits of debate the Government are imposing on us? Is it justified by Parliamentary practice, by usage, or by common sense? Surely we have a right —surely a minority whom it is proposed thus to bind and restrict, have a right to know what are the proposals which you are going to force them to accept? We do not know them. I do not know that the Prime Minister knows them. I am sure we do not, and how, therefore, can we submit silently to having only three days given to the Report stage, when part of that time will be occupied by the discussion of this new Amendment and all consequential Amendments which flow from it? I am one of those who think that the aim of Ministers in this House should be to give as much latitude as possible on the Committee stage of a Bill; but I should not object so much to the restriction of our liberty on the Report stage, which includes the discussion of some matters already dealt with in Committee. But on the Report stage if we exclude matters already debated three days must be inadequate for any debate which starts from this new proposal of the Government, at present unknown, but which must entirely revolutionise Clause 8, and profoundly affect the Welsh Home Rule clause. It is absurd to expect us to discuss that, with all the matters that must arise on the Report stage, within the limits of three days. How can you justify it?

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The Government have also put in a sentence in this Resolution which enables them to drop any portion of the Bill at their own will without amendment or debate. I have always held that our existing rules require amendment on this point. I have always held that the arrangement which made it possible for the House to occupy itself for days over a clause which it was intended to drop after a discussion was a very unbusiness like proceeding, and might lead to a great waste of time; but I have never suggested in my wildest moments that any promoter of a Bill or any Government should be allowed to drop any portion of their proposals, and should be enabled to put the question to the vote without any one having a say in the matter. Under the powers taken by the Government they may come down any afternoon and say that they mean to drop Clause 4, requiring the Speaker to put the question from the Chair, and not a single hon. Member would be able to raise a word of protest either on the Committee stage or on the Report stage. He can only make something like a valid protest when the stage of Third Reading is reached. This is a tyrannical and unnecessary procedure. The words in the Resolution which give these enormous powers must be excised if only as a matter of precedent. It would never do for the House to accept a proposition stating not only that the powers of the promoters of a Bill should be enormously extended, but that they might move to drop certain parts of their proposals without a word of objection being heard. I think it is ludicrous, and I hope the Government will reconsider this subject. There is another point connected with the argument let fall by the right hon. Gentleman as to the excuse for this proposal, and which he himself regarded with a great deal more justification than he had time or inclination to devote to it. The right hon. Gentleman says that this Bill has been so much discussed in the country, it is so thoroughly understood, that the House really need not exercise its full rights of debate. We have what is commonly called—though I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman refrained from using the phrase—an implied mandate for it, and the fact that there is a mandate absolves the House from the minute examination of principles which is otherwise obligatory upon it.
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That is not constitutional law; neither is it constitutional practice nor constitutional wisdom; and besides it is inapplicable. The Government are of opinion that they have been told by the country to bring in a Bill of a certain character. I do not know what that Bill is. After listening to the hon. Member for Mid. Glamorganshire, the character of the Bill he was required to bring in was a measure to give full power to the local authority to decide whether or not denominational education should be given in the area. That is not the view of the right hon. Gentleman, for he has promised an Amendment that destroys that view altogether. There are hon. Members, and there is Dr. Clifford outside, who hold that the country declared that no rates should be applied in support of denominational education. That was one of the mandates given; but it is not accepted by the Government. They have adopted Clause 4, which in plain terms makes it possible for a minority to have to pay these rates in support of denominational education. Which is the mandate? The third mandate of the country was that there should be no test for teachers, and the Government have interpreted that mandate by putting in a clause which forbids certain things with regard to the teachers which have never been done and never will be done. So that according to the Government the mandate of the country was simply a beating of the wings in vacuo. Other persons interpreted the mandate of the country to mean that teachers should not have any question asked with regard to their religious convictions; but the Government say that the question should be asked. With all these ambiguities, therefore, as to what the view of the country was, is it not idle for the right hon. Gentleman to say that the country has so carefully considered this matter, that its opinion has been given so clearly, that the House may absolve itself from the labour which in ordinary circumstances would fall upon it of considering in turn each detail of the Government proposals? I cannot believe that when the right hon. Gentleman considers the arguments which I have marshalled before him, some drawn from the details of the Bill, and some drawn from broader and wider considerations, he will fail to see that his proposal is open to severe condemnation by all those who have the desire of leading the House in

1407
the interest of liberty of discussion. I do not wish to quote the right hon. Gentleman's words against him or to drag up any admissions or statements he may have made; but surely I am justified in saying of one speech at all events there might be a common measure of propriety applied to these discussions, whether in Opposition or in power. When the right hon. Gentleman in Opposition implied that the time taken over the Education Act of 1902 was not unduly extended, when he had no word of comment or reproach in connection with the twenty days spent on Clauses 6 and 7, when he remembers how he begged, even after thirty-six days, that the closure we proposed might yet be extended, surely he will feel that more than the ordinary margin of deviation between that which he thinks legitimate when in Opposition and that which he thinks desirable when in power has in this case been overpassed, and that when he has behind him an obedient majority he is requiring the House to adopt principles of practice which he himself vehemently repudiated when he was in a position of less responsibility. He has changed his opinions, and many of us in the course of twenty-five years have been obliged to change our opinions with regard to the rules by which the House is to be governed. Even if in the last three years he has changed his opinions, well and good; but I do not understand that he has. I understand that he professes to stand where he did three years ago; and therefore he ought to apply the same principles now as he applied three years ago. He is requiring of his present opponents a degree of subserviency, an amount of silent acquiescence which he would never have tolerated for himself and his friends. He is applying a wholly different measure of justice, equity, and propriety in our proceedings never before sought to be applied when he was in a position of less responsibility. That does not add to the dignity of our procedure in this House. Many times have I, when I sat on the benches opposite, laid down the rule that no man ought in power to vote for a proposition which in opposition he thought might be inequitable; and I have endeavoured to carry that principle out. I do not discuss the position of the right hon. Gentleman because he thinks that this Bill is one which requires exceptional
1408
means to deal with it. It may be that he is right; but he has lost a great opportunity of finding, as he has already found, that on principle the Opposition are not irreconcilably opposed to his views. He might have started a precedent which would show that the majority was not incapable of justice to those who were opposed to them. He might have given us a limit of time which all reasonable men would have felt to be adequate for the discussion even of a Bill of this kind. Has he done so? Has any man seriously held that he has tried to do so? He has talked about the holidays, the autumn session, the glories of the country in August and September. Excellent topics, but there is something more important than these. It is that when the majority set themselves to the delicate and difficult task of limiting the amount of debate which they are going to allow to the minority they should do so in a spirit of justice. They should endeavour to mete out the amount of time not merely to their own momentary convenience but to the necessities of the case. Hon. Members opposite should insist that the Government which they support should make themselves clear as to the character of the measure they are bringing before the House. The Government and the majority have shown themselves, as I think, quite unequal to that great responsibility, because they have deliberately chosen to use the power which numbers give them to oppress and to restrict legitimate debate. I think they must be counted among those who have contributed to the degradation of this House. For no adequate reason, on no principle which they themselves have been able to state, they are preventing those from whom they differ from laying their alternative principles before the House or adequately criticising the proposals of the Government. These are the reasons which seem to me to justify the Amendment. I hope the Government, even if they cannot wholly carry out the policy I recommend, will at all events, admit that a case has been made out for relaxing somewhat the bands by which they have endeavoured to tie us, and will diminish to some extent by such concession the force of criticisms which from any other point of view are wholly unanswerable.
Amendment proposed—
"In line 1, to leave out all the words after the word 'That,' and to insert the words' this House objects to a proposal which unduly limits the time allowed for the discussion in the House of Commons of a measure which is burdensome both to the taxpayer and the ratepayer, is unjust to the parents of children attending voluntary schools, and subsidising one form of religious instruction at the expense of the whole community.'"—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the end of line 5, stand part of the Question."
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,): Those who sat in the last House of Commons must admit there is something ironical in the way in which fortune or political vicissitudes have distributed the parts this afternoon. I have in days gone by used probably as strong language as anybody against this form of proceeding. I entertain quite as fully as others the objections to these recurring inroads by the more or less arbitrary action of the Government of the day upon the freedom of our debates. I entirely share the views expressed by my right hon. friend that if we are to transact our business efficiently there must be a due allotment of time between the different parts of a measure, and that the instrument or organ by which the allocation should be made should not be the Government of the day, but some independent tribunal whose impartial judgment every part of the House would be ready to accept. But I must add that I think that these inroads—and no one has made more than the right hon. Gentleman opposite during the last Parliament—were much more acutely felt inside than outside the walls of this House. I have tried to the best of my ability to arouse from public platforms the popular indignation against these arbitrary proceedings on the part of the right hon. Gentleman; but I always found that even in cases like the Education Bill, where the popular feeling was very strongly engaged against the Government, there was a feeling outside that the time of the House was wasted in dilatory discussion of unimportant matters, and they could not complain if the Government of the day, anxious to push on the business, used its authority from time to time to cut short the flow
1410
of speech and to curtail the liberty of debate. The right hon. Gentleman made two admissions which are quite sufficient to carry us to day. In the first place, he admits that under our existing rules a proceeding of this kind must from time to time be resorted to; and next, he made the further admission that it was desirable, if this machinery of closure is to be resorted to, it should be at an earlier stage, in order that something like due proportion should be maintained between those parts which are relatively important and those which are relatively trivial. It is for that reason we have introduced this Motion at this stage, when the Bill has been six days in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman told us that his own Bill of 1902 was thirty-eight days in Committee before he resorted to the closure. But a considerable number of those days were not full days, and a careful analysis will show that we had only been twenty-nine full days in Committee when the right hon. Gentleman proposed his closure Resolution. And what did he propose to do? He proposed to assign for the remainder of the Committee stage six days, and six days only. We are giving thirteen. The right hon. Gentleman is very indignant that we are only giving three days for Report, although he only gave three and a half days. But I demur to any analogy between the proceedings on the Bill of 1902 and the present Bill. The Government of 1902 brought in only two years after the general election of 1900, when there was not an elector in the country ever dreamt of legislation of the kind, a Bill to disestablish the school boards, and to quarter the whole of the denominational schools upon the rates—a most revolutionary proposal. Whatever may be said about the details of the present Bill, there is not a single man who has been engaged in political controversy during the last four years who does not know that as regards the main, fundamental, underlying principles of the Bill, they have been the subject of endless discussion and have received the emphatic endorsement of a large majority of the electorate. It is absolutely impossible to apply the same measure of discussion to the proceedings on two Bills so totally different in their origin and character. The discussions which have already taken place on this Bill have settled important principles.

1411
We have established after long debate by Clause 1 that all schools hereafter shall be under popular control. That is the very root and foundation of the whole Bill. We have next established— after debate equally exhaustive—the principle that in all provided schools in future the secular system is not to prevail —that is to say, the local authority is not to be prohibited from giving religious teaching, and that religious teaching in accordance with the Cowper-Temple clause is to be permissive in those schools. Those are two very far-reaching principles established. I do not deny that certain controversial elements remain; but the main points outstanding are in regard to facilities, the terms on which facilities should be granted, the position of the teacher, and the relation of the religious teaching to the curriculum of the school so far as school hours are concerned. These are really the main outstanding controversial points; and I do not think that anyone who has any sense of proportion, and who estimates the amount of time given to the discussion of the two first principles, will deny that we are giving on that basis adequate time for the discussion of those outstanding principles. But there are other precedents than the Bill of 1902. What about the Licensing Bill of 1904? And let me remark that the importance of a Bill and its controversial character is not to be measured by the number of its clauses, by the amount of paper it covers, but by the importance of its provisions and the degree of hostility and criticism which it excites. Judged by that standard, you have rarely had in this House a more controversial measure than the Licensing Bill of 1904. How was it dealt with? The Bill had been in Committee four and a half days when the right hon. Gentleman brought forward his closure Resolution which gave us four days more to the discussion of the whole of the remainder of that Bill. That Bill, which, like the Education Bill of 1902, will necessarily lead to a largo measure of reversal—that Bill, under the right hon. Gentleman's own guidance, was discussed for only eight and a half days, and two days more on Report. Another Bill of equal importance, which gave rise to serious constitutional difficulties in the following year, was the Aliens Bill of 1905. There we were allowed three days in Committee before the guillotine
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was applied, and then Clauses 1 to 10 and the financial Resolution, practically the whole of the Bill, were allowed two days for discussion, and no more, and the Report one and a half days. I think the House will agree that, when we are allowing thirteen additional days for the Committee stage, three days for Report, and one clay for Third Reading, if we are to be judged by the precedents the right hon. Gentleman has set, we are behaving with a liberality which the late Government did not dream of extending to the House of Commons. These are the main, the governing considerations which have actuated the Government in this matter. We think it is only fair to the House of Commons that at the earliest possible stage it should have an opportunity of calmly considering the relative degrees of importance, and the time that should be given to the different provisions of the Bill. Having regard to the discussion which has taken place in the country and the House, the twenty-eight days which, if our Resolution is carried, this Bill will have occupied in proceeding through the House of Commons will, we think, be adequate to ensure full ventilation and criticism of all its provisions. It will have this additional and most desirable result, that when we reassemble after the adjournment for the autumn recess the House of Lords will be free at leisure to discuss the various provisions of the Bill, while we shall be able to take up the other important matters of legislation which during the present year the Government are fully determined to pass.
MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid he did not wish to indulge in those recriminations which perhaps more became those sitting on the front benches than one who sat on the back benches. He would give the House one or two reasons why he objected to this Resolution. No charge of obstruction had been made, and if they surveyed the proceedings on this Bill in Committee the Opposition had a clean sheet so far as obstruction was concerned. There had been during the Committee stage two long debates, but they took place upon Motions made by supporters of the Government. One of those debates was a very useful one, but it should not be overlooked that it was carried on largely

1413
by Ministerialists, and resulted in considerable concessions being made by the Minister for Education. Therefore so far as obstruction was concerned there was no case at all. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that the main purpose of the Bill of 1902 was not the improvement of education, but the establishment of denominational teaching, that one denomination was to be quartered on the rates for religious purposes and the atmosphere of that one religious sect was to be called national. In this Bill they had an exact replica of those views, because nobody could deny that under Clause 4 the atmosphere of one religious sect was to be maintained, although they did not hear so much about this at the last election. The tu quoque argument was not always acceptable, but it was valuable to the Opposition when they were likely to secure the support of anyone sitting on the Ministerial side of the House. The Under-Secretary for India was not in his place, but in a speech made when the late Prime Minister proposed a similar Closure Resolution he stated that as long as he was a Member of the House of Commons he would never vote for such a Motion. That was a valuable admission, and he hoped to receive the right hon. Gentleman's support upon this occasion. The Government entered upon this session with a large legislative programme fully aware of the limits of Parliamentary time, and in putting forward a scheme of this kind dealing with education they should have consulted not only their own followers, but others as to the proper allocation of time to be given to such a large measure. That certainly would have mitigated the opposition which they felt bound to offer in connection with this particular Resolution. His opinion was that practically the whole of the ground for this Resolution had been whittled away to one particular point, and that was that if the Government allowed for discussion the period that was really necessary there would not be sufficient time before the recess which must commence at the beginning of August. If that was the case there was a very easy method by which the Government could attain their object. Probably there was sufficient time to finish Part I., upon which the Government claimed they had obtained the mandate of the country at the general election. That was the Part which had commanded the attention of
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the House in the debates on the First Reading, the Second Reading, and during the Committee stage, and if the Government would agree to drop Parts II. III. and IV. there would be ample time to discuss Part I. before the recess. There were some far-reaching questions involved in Part IV., as it broke up the new educational authorities which had only just got to work, and divided others into separate bodies. There were certain delegations of powers to other authorities which involved very important issues, and all these questions were to be settled without any previous discussion and without any knowledge of what was in the mind of the Government, according to this Closure Resolution, in two days. These were not so much matters of controversy, but surely they were questions for amendment and consideration. Hon. Members were under very great disadvantages in the discussions because all through the debates so far they had had conciliatory speeches and gentle words. Nevertheless, they had not had any idea of what actually was to be the policy followed by the Government in reference to the great questions still in dispute. They had been obliged to prolong the debates during the earlier stages because of the impossibility of obtaining the information they desired. Coming events, they were told, cast their shadows before, and by the introduction of this Resolution they might be able to detect that Clause 6 was not so popular, because it was connected with Clause 7, and both clauses were to be dealt with in a comparatively short time. It was very desirable that they should know whether the Government intended to adhere to Clause 6. Could it be that the whole question of the teachers was to be relegated to a second place? Those who were interested in the cause of the teachers would not submit to that decision, and he was quite sure it would very much shorten debate and relieve the Opposition of some anxiety if they could be told the exact position of the Government on this question. They were only now being given slowly and by degrees information which the House ought to have had before entering upon the consideration of these important questions. On Saturday a Return was issued dealing with voluntary school trusts in the county of Kent. They were told that a partial Return with reference

1415
to the syllabus had at last been placed with the officers of the House. They were not told who were to form the Commission of three under Clause 8. All these were matters on which it was essential to have information if the Bill before the House was to be properly discussed. He thought, therefore, they were justified in taking exception to the very unusual course of proceedings in this matter, first, the declining to give information, and then the bringing forward of this Resolution, not on account of obstruction, or for any reason by which Governments in the past had proposed closure by compartments, but simply in order that hon. Gentlemen should have that holiday which they used to say was the chief object of the Conservative Party. The fact that there was to be an autumn session did away with the whole argument in regard to that particular difficulty. Having in view the immense importance of the questions raised by the Bill, and the fact that the debate had been carried on without the slightest taint of obstruction, he thought they might justly ask the Government to consider whether it would not ease matters to abandon all except Part I. of the Bill. If the Government were not prepared to do that they might consider whether further time could not be given for the discussion of the important clauses of the Bill.
DR. MACNAMARAsaid the Leader of the Opposition had given a delightful example of Satan reproving sin, in view of what he did in 1902. During the long discussion on the Bill of that year they ambled on for thirty-eight days in Committee on all sorts of trivial matters, and then the right hon. Gentleman came down to the House in a flurry and determined that the rest of the proceedings must be closured by compartments. He gave thirteen days for nine clauses which formed substantially the greater part of the Bill. Those clauses dealt with matters of the greatest educational moment, and there were in addition the schedules and the financial Resolution involving an expenditure of £1,800,000. There were proposed by the Government five new clauses which did not appear on the Paper till the last moment— clauses which dealt with management, endowments, finance, and grouping of
1416
schools, and entirely transformed the measure from what was originally proposed. The net result was that from November 11th, 1902, when they had more than half of the Bill still to dispose of, nothing was seriously discussed, and a great many matters of high educational moment were never mentioned at all. Therefore it did not lie with the Leader of the Opposition now to say that he did not know what the Government intended to do. The schedule of the 1902 Act repealed in whole or in part the legislation in regard to education of the previous thirty-two years, but it was never mentioned at all in the debates. He asked the House to compare the headlong manner in which they were compelled to dismiss matters of the greatest importance in 1902 with the businesslike scheme now before them. Two clauses of the present Bill had already been considered in Committee, and the Government, taking time by the forelock, had proposed a time table, the genius of which was to secure, at any rate, that some time should be given to every part of the Bill, though perhaps in the opinion of some hon. Gentlemen opposite the time allowed might not be adequate. He was bound to say that there were two features of the time table which were a little drastic, and he would ask the Prime Minister with great respect for reconsideration of his proposal in regard to these matters. Only one day was proposed to be given for Clauses 6 and 7 and the Report stage of the financial Resolution. The Report stage of the financial Resolution did not matter very much, but he ventured to say that one day was not enough for Clauses 6 and 7 if they were to be dealt with with due regard to the matters of public interest which each involved. Clause 6 introduced a great new principle in educational legislation. It said that no parent of a child attending a public elementary school should be under obligation to cause the child to attend during the time for religious instruction. There would be many opinions on both sides of the House in regard to that clause, and he should be surprised if the whole of the day was not given up to its discussion. Clause 7 provided that a teacher employed in a public elementary school should not give any religious instruction of a special character except under certain conditions. He entirely agreed with that, but it was

1417
a great new principle which required discussion. The clause also provided for a teacher who lost his employment by reason of the closing of a voluntary school being entitled to pay contributions to the deferred annuity fund during any time not exceeding one year, and to reckon the time in respect of which contributions were so made as if it were recorded service. That would not be discussed at all if not more than one day were given for Clauses 6 and 7. He asked the Government to make that part of the Resolution more elastic by the addition of another day for those clauses. He entirely associated himself with the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition in regard to Part III., to which two days were to be given. The questions raised by Clauses 25, 26, 34, and 35 in Part III. all required careful consideration. If the Prime Minister would look into Part III. he might be induced to come to the conclusion that more than two days were required for its adequate discussion.
MR. F. E. SMITHsaid that this proposal was a matter of some interest to many on his side of the House. While they accepted with pleasure the recommendations made by the hon. Member for North Camberwell to the Prime Minister, it was a matter of surprise to hear the hon. Member speak as he had done of the manner in which the Bill of 1902 was dealt with in Committee. The hon. Member, speaking on the Closure Resolution then proposed by the present Leader of the Opposition, said—
"Clauses 9, 10, and 11 were rushed through Committee in a way that could not be regarded as wise; Clause 9 was taken at one sitting after four applications of the closure; Clauses 10 and 11 were taken at one sitting after the closure had been applied three times."
The point he wished to make was that the present debate mist to some extent be an unreal one, for the simple reason that they were discussing for the first time a perfectly novel principle, viz., whether in the future in the case of all important measures of a highly controversial nature they were going to have from the first stages of procedure a mechanical application of the closure. He had hoped that upon consideration of the proposals they would have had a considerable measure of support from hon.
1418
Gentlemen opposite. When the clause was first discussed, hon. Gentlemen got up one after another on the Ministerial Benches, and they on the Opposition side of the House had small opportunity of speaking because members of the Government rose and contradicted themselves. He could not help thinking that the right hon. Member the Under - Secretary for India and a large number of hon. Members opposite who had pledged themselves not to support this particular class of Resolution, but who had availed themselves very largely of the discussion hitherto, would support the Amendment now brought forward. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that there were other considerations, and while he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman in deprecating too close an application to that method of reasoning, he would call attention to a striking observation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer made during the debates of 1902. The right hon. Gentleman at that time said that the procedure thon proposed was inconsistent with the elementary rights and privileges of a debating assembly. If that were so in 1902 it must be so in 1906. The right hon. Gentleman then went on to say —
"That such procedure ought not to be resorted to except in two cases. First, in a case of extreme emergency and in accordance with public order; or, secondly, in a case where the discussion in the country had rendered the question ripe for discussion in Parliament."
He did not think any member of the Opposition would say that the present Bill had been thoroughly discussed, or discussed at all, in the country. He did not wish to attempt once again to analyse the hydra-headed abstraction as to a mandate, but if it were discussed in the country he would remind the House of the description which the Prime Minister gave of the general character of the proposal which a Liberal Government would submit to Parliament. The Prime Minister said—
"We want the children to be brought up in the faith of their fathers. The Liberal Party has but one object, viz., to secure freedom of conscience, equal treatment, and complete public control."
That was their mandate; not the present Bill. The Minister for Education, unless there should be any uncertainty, had contributed to a magazine an admirably expressed statement of his own educational views. The right hon. Gentleman had

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said, writing to the Contemporary Review that
"Every three years they should consult the parents' wishes and really apply by voluntary effort religious instruction to the children in accordance with their wishes."
He would ask the House to mark also what followed—
"By this means the Church Catechism would find its way into all schools, and board school Christianity would be taught in denominational schools."
But what was the mandate which they got from the country? The House would perhaps permit him to relate an experience that he had had. He was visiting a clergyman of the Church of England during the last election soliciting his support, and about whose views ho was not certain. He called the clergyman's attention to the dangerous disparity between speeches delivered by an eminent member of the Liberal Party, viz., the right hon. Member for Stirling Burghs, and another eminent member of the Liberal Party at Bodmin. His discussion on Home Rule appealed to his rev. friend very little. Then he attempted to recall his rev. friend to the subject of voluntary schools. He said—
"How about your schools. I understand the Liberal Party are threatening them?"
The clergyman replied—
"You are mistaken. I have been in communication with the Minister for Education, and you do not know, but I know, his courage and his toleration. He puts down his foot and says 'Thus far and no further,' and all the Dissenters in the world would not make him go further."
His clerical friend adjured him to read the speeches of the Minister for Education before he came to canvass for votes. They were now told that the mandate for the Bill need not be discussed in the House because it had been discussed in the country, but he would call their attention to the statements made by the Minister for Education in his speech at Bristol. The right hon. Gentleman said—
"My desire is, if it be possible, to discover a satisfactory solution of this religious difficulty which will enable the children who attend the elementary schools of the country to receive the religious instruction which their parents wish them to receive, upon the school premises. That would be, if it could be done, a remarkable accession to the freedom of religious teaching. If these rules came into operation they will be at liberty, at the expense of the denomina-
1420
tion, to receive on the school premises—though attendance would not be conpulsory — the religious instruction their parents wished them to receive."
In the face of that speech was it not idle for the Government to suggest that they had a mandate for this Bill, and that they had had a sufficient discussion on the clause before them? He had not failed to notice that the Minister for Education had been driven and directed by two commanding personalities, viz., the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education and the President of the Board of Trade. He should vote against the Resolution with considerable equanimity because he believed that the Government had taken one more step to make the passing of the measure in its present form impossible. Under the present limitation of time it was impossible that many of the parts of the Bill which were of vital importance to the denominational schools—even in those days when the closure was becoming a recognised part of the Parliamentary machinery —couldjbo placed on the Statute-book when such parts had not received deliberate and detailed examination by Parliament.
*SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that if the Government had not intimated their intention to withdraw Part II. of the Bill he should have been obliged to draw attention to some of the defects in that portion of the measure. Confining his attention to Part III. he wished to say that it was his privilege some years ago to sit upon a Committee of this House upon the position of teachers. He felt deep regret that, after long and careful consideration of the clause relating to the education of teachers, it would not be possible to place the position of the teachers as to registration on a proper footing under this Bill. He wished to say one word as to Clause 35, which gave power to the Education Department to make arrangements for attending to the physical health and condition of the children. What was the position of this question? They had had a Bill on the subject read a second time, and it was now under the consideration of a Select Committee. That Committee had received evidence of the most valuable and interesting character and were finally deliberating upon the subject. Although their deliberations were not completed,

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the Government had now brought forward a Bill which dealt with this subject by one drastic clause. He agreed that certain clauses of the Education Bill of 1902 relating to finance were a blot upon it at the time that it was passed and were a blot upon it now, and he was not surprised that the Government should have thought it right to deal with the question of education. He did think, however, that they were not dealing satisfactorily with this particular question. The proposals were not satisfactory, and the question ought to be dealt with at a time when they had ample leisure to consider it and deal with it fully. The subject of devolution had been discussed by the County Councils Association in the country, and the power which it was proposed to confer was a most important one. He thought that some of the areas proposed were far too large to be handled satisfactorily by one authority. There must, he thought, be some provision for separating these great districts into separate areas, so that each area might be satisfactorily managed. This was a great and complicated question which dealt, not only with large areas, but with the character of population. In a former Act they dealt with the character of the population as well as its distribution, and he regretted that the closure was so severe on the present occasion that the questions which naturally arose could not be properly discussed. This clause would be hustled through Parliament without any opportunity of debate having been given. He was addressing the House quite apart from the theological question and upon a question which was purely educational and for the welfare of the people.
*MR. EVELYN CECILsaid the Chancellor of the Exchequer had endeavoured to whittle down from thirty-eight days to twenty-nine the period allowed by the Conservative Government for the discussion of the Education Bill of 1902 before the closure was applied, and had said that the closure which they put upon the Aliens Bill extended to only two days. The right hon. Gentleman, however, omitted to inform the House that the Aliens Bill passed its Second Reading without a division; therefore it seemed ridiculous to quote that Bill as a precedent applicable to the present case. The last
1422
Home Rule Bill, moreover, was not closured until the discussion upon it had proceeded for twenty-eight days. In this case they were face to face with one of the most important measures of the session, a measure affecting the education of the whole country, and the proposal was that it should be closured after ten or twelve days discussion. He did not think such a course would conduce to the dignity of Parliament or recommend the Government to the country, especially as it was apparent that the closure was being applied to a Bill as to which the House was absolutely ignorant of what many of its most vital provisions were to be. Yet in such a state of things the closure was to be applied. He was sorry that the Prime Minister was not in his place, because the right hon. Gentleman might obtain some useful information from speeches of his own in 1902, when he said—
"We must certainly contemplate that there may be cases of extreme urgency which demand this somewhat violent interference with the rights of minorities."
The Prime Minister would admit that in this case there was a somewhat "violent interference with the rights of minorities." Upon that subject he had only to turn to a few objections which the President of the Board of Trade made on the same occasion. The President of the Board of Trade asked—
"Is the Education Bill a case of urgency like the Crimes Act?"
And added—
"The conditions underlying the Education Bill have been in existence for years and years."
Was it not to be said that the conditions underlying the present Bill also had been in existence for many years? The Prime Minister on the same occasion exclaimed—
"Obstruction! Why I venture to say that never has a Party, regarding a measure as obnoxious, so single-mindedly done so much to improve it."
That was the statement of a Prime Minister who, three and a half years later, came forward with the present intensely despotic Resolution. Further, the Prime Minister said—
"My contention is that a Bill of this character requires the fullest and freest discussion, because it is designed for a permanent settlement which affects closely the daily life of the people; it touches the conscience as well as political principle and opinion."

1423
Did not the present Bill touch the conscience and opinion of the people? If that was the case, why were they not allowed the fullest and freest opportunity for discussion such as was contended for by the Prime Minister and the President of the Board of Trade in 1902? To his mind it was absolutely impossible for either of those right hon. Gentleman to justify his present attitude in view of the attitude which he took up in 1902. He thought the real reason why the Government had brought in this Motion was that they were afraid to amend their own Bill. Why did the hon. Member for North Hackney put down a very important Amendment to Clause 3 and subsequently withdraw it? There was much in that Amendment which Members of the Opposition would have supported, and showed that there was a greater feeling of fairness among followers of the Government than in the Government itself. Why did the Government bring pressure to bear upon some of their supporters to take away the only chance there was of coming to a settlement, and then bring in the closure? He protested against this procedure, which was certain to create great feeling in the country and to prevent this Bill becoming a final settlement of the education difficulty.
*MR. LEIF JONESsaid he hoped right hon. Gentlemen on both Front Benches, for whose powers, experience and eloquence he had the profoundest respect, would forgive him if he confessed he had not been greatly impressed by the speeches on either side that day, for what they said was too much influenced by where they sat. He quite recognised the difficulty which any Government found in trying to pass great measures through the House. Sitting as he did however on the back benches he had an advantage over those on the Front Bench in being able to be consistent. He opposed the closure in the Aliens Bill, and he had seen no reason to change his view that closure by compartments was a thoroughly mischievous way of carrying legislation through the House. He was in a difficult position. He could not vote for the Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentlemen the Leader of the Opposition, but on the other hand he had made up his mind, as far as any one could do that in political life, that he would not
1424
vote for the closure by compartments The effect of this closure by compartments had been uniformly bad. It was designed to keep his Irish friends in order, and it had never done that.
MR. T. W. RUSSELL: No, no.
*MR. LEIF JONESsaid he was not imputing anything to his Irish friends, but it had failed in its purpose if that was its object. The effect also of the closure on the Minister in charge of the Bill was injurious. Up till now the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education had been, in the House, a courteous, learned Gentleman, with a broad outlook on all the problems of education presented to him. But when this Closure Resolution was carried he would be changed. He would no longer watch the progress of the Bill with the intention to improve it. He would sit with his eye on the clock waiting for the hands to go round for him to secure automatically the particular clause under discussion. He (Mr. Leif Jones) believed it to be pernicious to lay it down that at a given hour on a given day any particular clause or any particular stage of the Bill should be passed, and nothing had been said that day which had in the least changed his opinion. What was the effect of the closure on a Bill? It ceased to be amended. In the case of the Aliens Bill from the moment the Closure Resolution was passed there was an end to improvements in it. The Bill passed in the shape in which it was presented to the House by the Minister. The House of Commons were no longer giving to the country the best legislation they could. They were giving it the particular sort of legislation which the Government felt it could afford the time to pass. That was not their duty. When they took in hand an alteration of the education law they ought to make the new Education Bill the best Bill the House of Commons could produce. To do less than that was to fail in their duty to their constituents. Though they might not discuss measures in this House they would be discussed in the country. He remembered his hon. friend the Member for Cockermouth, who had been his political teacher in a good many ways— saying the House of Commons had

1425
its faults, but it was the only place he knew in the country where a question was thoroughly thrashed out from top to bottom. Who would say that of the House of Commons of the last twenty years? They had sacrificed their reputation and they no longer discussed fully all the clauses of the Bills they carried. What was the result of it? Time was not saved. They were closuring the Education Bill this session because the late Government closured their Education Bill in 1902; and next session, when they dealt with the licensing question, that Bill would be closured because the late Government closured their Licensing Bill. This new system, devised in the last twenty-five years, had utterly failed in its purpose, and ho appealed to the Government to devise a better method of passing their legislation than by Closure Resolutions. He should vote against the Prime Minister's Motion. He did it with pain. He hated going into the "wrong" lobby, but at any rate he would keep a clear conscience in the matter and do what he could to pass the Education Bill in its very best shape.
*MR. HART-DAVIES,said that when he entered the House a few moments previously he heard the hon. Member for Aston Manor say that he (Mr. Hart Davies) had withdrawn his Amendment on Clause 3 from the Paper under the pressure of the Government. He wished to say he did nothing of the kind. He withdrew it because he had altered his opinion with regard to the masters giving religious education to the children. He had thought that the masters ought to have nothing to do with the religious education of the children. That was one reason for his withdrawing that Amendment. Another was that the whole matter had been thoroughly discussed on the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham. He had always been in favour of the State favouring no religion at all. He thought it was the business of the Churches and the ministers of the Churches, and not of the State, to teach the children religion, and it was for that reason that he thought there ought to be only secular religion given by the State. It was for those reasons that he withdrew his Amendment and for no other. He should vote for the proposal of the Government. He thought seventeen days was quite
1426
sufficient for the discussion of this Bill, because when it came back from another place they would only have all the discussion over again.
*MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the answer to his hon. friend the Member for the Appleby Division was simple. He had heard the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition say some years ago that it was absolutely impossible for this House in one session to pass more than one great contested measure. That was the truth, and unless the House was content to limit its legislation there must be resort to something of this kind. Did the country really care whether the debates of this House were closured or not? In all his perigrinations through the country, on all the platforms on which he had spoken, he never got an atom of sympathy when he complained of these Closure Resolutions. The general opinion in the country was that it was a good thing that hon. Members of this House wore shut up— that they talked too much and did too little. He thought the debates on Resolutions of this character were thoroughly unreal. He had voted on both sides. He voted long ago for the closure on the Crimes Bill, and he voted against the closure on the Home Rule Bill. He voted against the closure on the Education Act of 1902. In fact he had voted so often on both sides that it was very difficult to remember how he voted on each occasion. He had voted on both sides, but so had all old Members of the House. It depended upon which side of the House they sat, whether they voted for or against. The Leader of the House having brought in this Resolution, those sitting on the Opposition side would vote against it; but if it was brought in by the Leader of the Opposition they would support it. It was in his opinion very little use their wasting any further time discussing it.
LORD R. CECILexpressed surprise at some of the observations of the hon. Member for South Tyrone. The hon. Member would find himself quite mistaken if he thought the country was indifferent to this Motion. He should vote for the Amendment in respect to which, if there was any complaint, it was that it was not strong enough. He would have preferred that it should forth

1427
what he believed to be the true objection to this Bill, namely, that it offended the consciences of thousands of our fellow countrymen. He could not help feeling that hon. Members opposite had throughout these discussions under-estimated the importance of the Bill they intended to pass. It was a common observation that it had re-united the Church of England in opposition to this Bill. It had had an even more remarkable effect: it had re-united the Unionist Party. Hon. Members on the Ministerial Benches had been fond of indulging in observations about the disunion of the Unionist Party, but so far as he was concerned he should be prepared to assist the return of any tariff reformer who was opposed to the provisions of this Bill. He believed that the tariff reformers were as sincere in their opposition to this Bill as he was himself, and would, if necessary, sink their most cherished convictions in order to secure its rejection. At any rate, he should continue to believe that was the fact until something had convinced him it was not so. The truth was the Government had throughout misunderstood the character of the opposition to the Bill. He did not think they realised that some of the controversies which were raised by it were controversies which had agitated the whole of the civilised nations of the earth more or less for the last 500 years. Denominationalists were really the same as those who believed that it was only by membership of a definite community that the great ideals of Christian faith and conduct could in any degree be realised, and some at any rate of those who were opposed to the denominationalists were the same in essence as those who had fastened their attentions more upon what they considered to be the errors of the various churches than upon the great idea of membership of a community. In addition there were those who considered that religion was not part of the duty of the State and who would divorce all religious effort from State interference. Those three classes who all hoped or feared something from the provisions of the present Bill were the three classes between which the Government had undertaken, not indeed to find some settlement, but to find at any rate some modus vivendi; and in order to accomplish that Herculean task not six months or six years would have been improperly expended. Of
1428
course, he did not suggest that they could allow a Bill to last six years; but he did suggest that there should be free, full, and complete discussion upon the provisions of this Bill, and that everyone who represented the various schools of thought to which he had alluded should feel at the end of the discussion that their views had been properly set forth and properly considered. He did not regard the time spent on the Bill as having been in any way wasted. He gathered that the hon. Member for South Tyrone was one of those who regarded this House as a kind of gigantic sausage machine, into which so many Bills were put at one end by the Government, and so much legislation was turned out at the other. He did not, however, regard that as the function of the House. He believed that its deliberations and discussions were certainly not less important than its actual enactments; and it was because he took that view that he regarded the full and free discussion of so difficult a subject as the education question as a matter of such vast importance. It was the only way in which to find out the real objections and the possible answers. An example was furnished on the consideration of Clause 2. It was only after the discussion had been going on for some time that it was realised by some hon. Gentlemen that a very important principle was at stake. The discussion proceeded, and no satisfactory conclusion was arrived at that evening; but the next day a proposal was made by the Government which, though he could not regard it as satisfactory in all respects, undoubtedly showed that the Government had been impressed by the discussion the night before and felt it to be their duty to do something to meet the wishes of the Committee. That could not have happened under the Closure Resolution, and he could not think that the present proposal was satisfactory, or would lead to the settlement of tins very difficult and thorny question. The only chance of ultimate agreement between the different parties was by very complete discussion. He believed a very large measure of agreement might be reached. He did not mean to say that an agreement was probable between those who thought that religious education was of little importance and those who thought it was of the vastest possible

1429
importance, and indeed, the only form of education that really mattered in the least; but between all those who really believed in religious education he confessed he did not despair of an ultimate agreement. It was profoundly to be regretted that owing to one of those miserable misunderstandings which had done so much harm in the world, those who ought to be fighting side by side against those who despised and resisted religion should be divided; and he could not help thinking that if as the result of discussion in this House and elsewhere they arrived at some definite and lasting agreement no amount of time, however great, which might be spent on it would be wasted or thrown away. For that reason he should vote very heartily against the Resolution, and support the Amendment, which he wished had been more strongly worded.
*SIR PHILIP MAGNUSsaid he should certainly support the Amendment for the reasons advanced by the Leader of the Opposition, and also for other reasons to which sufficient attention had not been given. He did not propose to follow the noble Lord on the religious question, great as he considered its importance; but he desired to point out that in the Resolutions proposed by the Prime Minister wholly insufficient time was given to the highly important and controversial questions which were raised by Part III. of this Bill. Part III. might be regarded perhaps as the part which was more educational than any other, and which best justified the title of the Bill. He was not certain whether hon. Members had sufficiently considered the highly important matters which were referred to in that part under the heading of Miscellaneous Amendments. Many of those Amendments were of sufficient importance to be embodied in separate Bills, and certainly required a longer time for discussion than two days. In Part III. was Clause 25 which would entrust higher education to smaller areas than those at present permitted to take charge of it. Then there was the highly important Clause 29 which proposed to remove the existing twopenny limit for higher education. He might be disposed to vote in favour of that clause as it would afford further facilities for improving secondary and, if necessary, even university education by grants from local
1430
authorities; but if he had to consider that clause in connection with Clause 25, which diminished the size of the area to be entrusted with higher education, then his opinion on Clause 29 might be changed. This showed how necessary it was if this part of the Bill was to be discussed that they should have sufficient time for the consideration of two such important clauses which bore one upon the other so closely. Then as to Clause 33, which referred to the decision of certain educational questions by the Board of Education. According to that clause the forms of apprenticeship might be regarded as educational, and therefore all trusts rotating to apprenticeship would have to be considered. The clause might be a useful one, but it certainly required much longer consideration than could be given to it if two days only were allotted to Part III. Clause 35 dealt with matters upon which, as the Loader of the Opposition had already said, many hon. Members on both sides of the House were in agreement with the framers of the Bill, but they could not agree to adopt the clause without adequate discussion. Clause 36 was of a most controversial character, for it proposed that the register of teachers should be discontinued. Having regard to its great importance it would be a matter of very serious consequence if no opportunity was afforded for the discussion of that very difficult question, and he was sure that all the associations of schoolmasters and teachers would regret it if the clause were passed without ample discussion. He hoped that not only Part II. but also Part III. would be withdrawn because of the insufficiency of time available for discussion, and because it would allow longer time for the consideration of matters arising out of the religious difficulty which had such an important bearing upon elementary education in this country.
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONcongratulated the Government upon adopting a measure for facilitating the progress of business. He and the Labour Members associated with him were interested in several other important measures, and, unless the Education Bill were disposed of in a reasonable time, some of those measures dealing with great social questions

1431
affecting the industrial life of the people of the country would be delayed, and might be found amongst the slaughtered innocents at the end of the session. Needless to say the Labour Members were prepared to support the Government in any measure which it adopted to prevent such a disaster as that overtaking the important measures introduced this session. The noble Lord the Member for Marylebone had suggested that the religious question was so important that almost any amount of time would be valuably spent if the House could arrive at a solution of the difficulty. [" Hear, hear."] That suggestion was applauded, but did any Member who had listened to the discussions which had taken place on the religious difficulty I think for a moment that they were now I any nearer bringing to an agreement the; parties representing sectarian teaching, undenominational teaching at the expense of the State, and those who, like himself, believed that the function of the State should terminate with the teaching of: secular instruction? Did any hon. Member believe that, after all the discussion that had taken place, these three great sections were any nearer agreement at the close than they were before the discussions took place? His humble opinion was that they were no nearer a settlement that would be satisfactory to all sections. He had risen mainly in order to make an appeal to the Government, to consider whether it was wise to give four days to Clauses 3, 4 and 5, when any agreement upon the religious difficulty was well nigh impossible, and give only two days to Part III. which dealt with most vital questions affecting the well being of child life. There was one provision in Clause 35 which appealed very strongly to the Labour Members, and that was in regard to vacation schools and the health of school children. There were such matters as medical inspection, the feeding of necessitous children, and other important subjects, which he feared might not have been reached when the closure came into operation. For these reasons he considered that he was justified in supporting the appeal made by the hon. Member for North Camberwell for further time for the discussion of Part III. If it were impossible to settle the religious question in three or four days why should four days be given to it at the sacrifice of
1432
time that could be better devoted to important questions involving the health of the children and the hygienic conditions that ought to apply to the schools?
MR. WYNDHAMfelt it would be impossible for the House to consider at all adequately the matters contained in Part III. of the Bill in the time mentioned in the Resolution. Whilst the hon. Member for the Barnard Castle Division was quite prepared to put the religious question on one side in favour of other questions, he could assure him that that opinion was not shared very widely in the House, and his suggestion to give less than four days to the consideration of Clauses 3, 4, and 5, did not appear to him to be a reasonable one. The hon. Member had said that the three Parties would never agree. The question then came to be which was the best of the three plans proposed. The plan which the House was asked to accept was one which gave all the advantages to one section. A little more argument might not unreasonably be expected to convince the Government that they could not follow that course. The Government had scarcely argued in favour of their proposal. They had put forward only one plea which had the semblance of plausibility. It was advanced first by the Prime Minister, and then reinforced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was that throughout the country the principle of popular control had been thoroughly discussed, and that the mandate which they had received was carried out in Clause 1 of the Bill. He was not arguing now as to whether popular control of religious instruction was right or wrong. It existed in Scotland, and something might be said for it. But Clause 1 did not give popular control over religious instruction. There were many areas in England where if they did allow popular control to have free play the existing institutions would be carried on without any alteration. He knew one area where there was a large majority of denominational schools, but there was no exclusion practised towards them in favour of undenominational schools. The right of entry was allowed to nonconformists, and the local authority had gone out of its way to establish two undenominational schools, although it need not have done so. There was no popular control over religious instruction, except in a negative form. Supposing

1433
that the Bill dealt with lighting instead of religious education, what would be said of a Government that provided that no local authority need light their area, but that, if they did, they must use a method of lighting known to he unpopular with the larger part of the population. The Government's Motion was directed against their own supporters rather than against the Opposition; for on Clauses 3, 4, and 5 there was no agreement on the Ministerial side of the House This was a case in which free discussion might have discovered a way of doing justice to all sections of opinion.
SIR FRANCIS LOWEasked what were the grounds upon which the closure should be applied to this measure at the present stage of proceedings in Committee. He understood that the reason for applying the closure to any measure before the House was that there had been too prolonged discussion upon it, and that there had been something like obstruction on the part of one or other of the political; parties. It could not be alleged that
there had been anything which could be called obstruction with regard to the Bill. It had only been discussed in the Committee for six days. In 1902 the Education Bill was discussed for about forty days before any proposal was made by the Government of the day to apply the closure. It was now proposed to apply the closure in a most arbitrary manner. It looked very much as if the Government were afraid to have the Bill adequately discussed. He was perfectly certain that if like treatment had been given to the Opposition in regard to the 1902 Act, hon. Gentlemen now on the Ministerial side would have marched out of the House and taken no further part in the proceedings, as a protest against such a very high handed course being adopted. There was absolutely no reason for applying the closure at the present time.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 341; Noes, 171. (Division List No. 125.)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Findlay, Alexander

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Levy, Maurice

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lewis, John Herbert

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradfrd

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Fullerton, Hugh

Lough, Thomas

Robinson, S.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Gill, A. H.

Lynch, H. B.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Macdonald, J. R. Leicester)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Glendinning, R. G.

Macdonald, J.M(Falkirk B'ghs

Rose, Charles Day

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Rowlands, J.

Gooch, George Peabody

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Russell, T. W.

Grant, Corrie

Macpherson, J. T.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Arthur, William

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

M'Callum, John M.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

M'Crae, George

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Grove, Archibald

M'Kenna, Reginald

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Micking, Major G.

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B

Maddison, Frederick

Sears, J. E.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Seaverns. J. H.

Hardie, J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln)

Seddon, J.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

Shackleton, David James

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

Marnham, F. J.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

Harwood, George

Massie, J.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Menzies, Walter

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Haworth, Arthur A.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Hedges, A. Paget

Molteno, Percy Alport

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Helme, Norval Watson

Mond, A.

Snowden, P.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Money, L. G. Chioozza

Soares, Ernest J.

Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.

Montagu, E. S.

Stanger, H. Y.

Henry, Charles S.

Montgomery, H. H.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Steadman, W. C.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Hodge, John

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Morrell, Philip

Strachey, Sir Edward

Holland, Sir William Henry

Morse, L. L.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Hooper, A. G.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N

Myer, Horatio

Summerbell, T.

Horniman, Emslie John

Napier, T. B.

Sutherland, J. E.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Hudson, Walter

Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncaster)

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Hyde, Clarendon

Norman, Henry

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Thomas, Sir A (Glamorgan, E.)

Jackson, R. S.

Partington, Oswald

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Paul, Herbert

Thomasson, Franklin

Jardine, Sir J.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Thompson, J. H.W.(Somerset, E

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Tomkinson, James

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye

Torrance, A. M.

Jones, David B. (Swansea)

Perks, Robert William

Toulmin, George

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Ure, Alexander

Jowett, F. W.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Verney, F. W.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Vivian, Henry

Kekewich, Sir George

Pirie, Duncan V.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Kelley, George D.

Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Wallace Robert

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.

Walters, John Tudor

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Radford, G. H.

Walton, Sir J. L. (Leeds, S.)

Laidlaw, Robert

Rainy, A. Rolland

Ward, W. D. (Southampton)

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Wardle, George J.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Lambert, George

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Wason, John Catheart(Orkney)

Lamont, Norman

Rees, J. D.

Waterlow, D. S.

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Rendall, Athelstan

Watt, H. Anderson

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mt'n

Wedgwood. Josiah C.

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Richardson, A.

Weir, James Galloway

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Whitbread, Howard

Lehmann, R. C.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

White, George (Norfolk)

1436

1437

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid

White, Luke (York, E.R,)

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Whitehead, Rowland

Wills, Arthur Walters

Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

Yoxall, James Henry

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Wiles, Thomas

Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Wilkie, Alexander

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Ffrench, Peter

Morpeth, Viscount

Ambrose, Robert

Field, William

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Finch. Rt. Hon. George H.

Murphy, John

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Fletcher. J. S.

Nield, Herbert

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Flynn, James Christopher

Nolan, Joseph

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O.

Forster, Henry William

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

Ashley, W. W.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Balcarres, Lord

Ginnell, L.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Baldwin, Alfred

Haddock, George R.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.)

Halpin, J.

O'Doherty, Philip

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Hamilton, Marquess of

O'Dowd, John

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hammond, John

O'Hare, Patrick

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

O' Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

Barry, E (Cork, S.

Harrison- Broadley, Col. H. B.

O'Malley, William

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh H.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

O'Mara, James

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Neill, Hn. Robert Torrens

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hazleton, Richard

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Blake, Edward

Heaton, John Henniker

Parkes, Ebenezer

Boland, John

Helmsley, Viscount

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds

Percy, Earl

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hills, J. W.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Bull, Sir William James

Hogan, Michael

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Burke, E. Haviland-

Houston, Robert Paterson

Redmond, William (Clare)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Joyce, Michael

Remnant, James Farquharson

Carlile, E. Hildrcd

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Castlereagh, Viscount

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Cave, George

Keswick, William

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Clancy, John Joseph

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Starkey, John R.

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

Liddell, Henry

Sullivan, Donal

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (DublinS

Thornton, Percy M

Craig, Captain Jas. (Down, E.)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Turnour, Viscount

Craik, Sir Henry

Lundon, W.

Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

Cross, Alexander

Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Dairymple, Viscount

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Wid.)

Delany, William

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Dillon, John

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

Dolan, Charles Joseph

M'Killop, W.

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Donelan, Captain A.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Doughty, Sir George

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Younger, George

Du Cros, Harvey

Meagher, Michael

Duncan, R. (Lanark, Govan)

Meehan, Patrick A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Fardell, Sir T. George

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Fell, Arthur

Mooney, J. J.

*MR. JOHN RUTHERFORDsaid that Clause 3 was one of the most important in the Bill, and he did not think it was right that only one day should be given to it. The Minister for Education had said in his speech that he was in favour of full liberty of debate; but they were beginning to see what liberty of discussion meant in the eyes of the Government. There were a number of most important Amendments on the paper to Clause 3, in which he himself was particularly interested, representing as he did a division in Lancashire in which there were a large number of voluntary schools, and he thought one day was far too little for the discussion of such an important clause. He therefore moved to extend the time to two days.
Amendment proposed—
"In line 6, after the word 'that' to insert the words 'two days to be allotted to."
Question proposed, '' That those words be there inserted."
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,)said he could not deny that hon. Members might easily occupy two days in discussing Clause 3. It was, however, obvious that if the House devoted a whole day to the discussion of that clause ample Parliamentary time would have been given to do it full justice. He could not see his way to give two days to the clause, and if hon. Gentlemen directed their attention to its substance and were content to make short speeches upon it, one day would be found to be perfectly adequate to dispose of it.
MR. SAMUEL ROBERTSsaid that Clause 3 might, and probably would, catch the Roman Catholic and the Jewish vote, but it was a vital clause for the Church of England schools. As one who represented a large number of Church of England schools, who wished to continue the very excellent religious teaching there given, he hoped that the Government would see that there was a real reason for giving more time to the discussion of that clause.
*SIR WILLIAM ANSONhoped that the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider his decision on this
1440
matter in view of the answer which he had given at an earlier hour of the sitting. He had asked the right hon. Gentleman a question as to when he would formulate the concession which during the discussion last week he promised to make on this clause, and from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman they assumed with tolerable confidence that there would be some modification of Clause 3 made later on in Committee, which would allow full discussion, so as to bring the clause into a form that would be satisfactory to the whole House. This clause affected denominational religious teaching which they on the Opposition side of the House cared for very deeply, and about which he believed the country felt far more deeply than the Government and the right hon. Gentleman were disposed to think; and it deserved a fuller discussion than could be given to it in one day. If the views of the hon. Member for Mid. Glamorganshire were supported by hon. Gentlemen opposite to any considerable extent the Government would find their forces divided. Why should they not be allowed more than one day for the discussion of this important question? If there was to be any change made in the structure of the clause it could only take place after a lively debate in which hon. Members sitting on the Ministerial side as well as hon. Members on the Opposition side would take part. He could not help thinking that the short period of discussion allowed for this clause was intended to preclude a possible division of opinion amongst the supporters of the Government. That appeared to him to be the reason why the Government had determined to allow the least possible opportunity for the expression of opinion. It would be a great misfortune if the Bill emerged from the Committee with this clause in its present indefinite form, or in such a shape that it would not carry out the wishes of a great majority of the Members of the House.
MR. CARLILEdesired to support this Amendment, because he realised that in this matter there was a trembling in the balance in regard to the interests of the schools. Those who were interested in denominational schools, and especially those interested in Church of

1441
England schools, realised that if this clause became law the greatest and highest interest in those schools would be destroyed. Therefore they felt when they were asked to allow this clause to be rushed through the House after only one day's discussion that they were placed with their backs to the wall and that they must fight such a proposition with all their power. They realised that under this clause the religious teaching which they had hitherto been able to give to the children would come to an end except in a sort of hole-and-corner fashion. Hon. Members must realise that under this clause they would not have that kind of atmosphere which they felt to be of the highest importance for the spiritual welfare of the children. On three days a week teachers of any sort were to be allowed to give simple Bible teaching. The teacher might belong to any sect or to no sect at all; he might be a Christian or a heathen, and yet he might be appointed to a Church school and be instructed by the local authority to give simple Bible teaching. Men who were perhaps sceptics, or atheists, or Buddhists or Mahommedans, or Roman Catholics, or Methodists, in fact any kind of teacher might be placed in their schools, and under Clause 3 they were to give religious instruction on three mornings of the week. The children would soon detect that the teachers did not believe in the instruction they were giving, and religious faith in the children would be destroyed. It seemed to him to be an outrage that such a request as was contained in this Resolution should be made by a responsible Minister. It was not too much to say that they were opposed lock, stock, and barrel to every part of Clause 3, and when hon. Members pleaded that the Bill should be rushed through in order that some other measures might be dealt with, he thought they were taking up an attitude which could only redound later on to their disadvantage. It was because they were deeply devoted to their schools that Churchmen were asking for a reasonable opportunity to enter some protest with the view of bringing the Government to change their line and of making them realise that the Opposition were pledged to the depths of their nature, and were bound up in the interests of the children. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman
1442
would give more time for the consideration of this clause.
MR. WALTER LONGsaid the Minister for Education had made two statements in the House—one that he desired to see denominational schools maintained in the country, and the other that he desired the Bill to become an Act in as friendly a way as possible. The right hon. Gentleman had failed to realise in adhering so closely to the proposals of the Government that Clause 3 was the only clause of the Bill to which the great mass of the rural schools in the country could look for any hope or assistance whatever. The clause was for them the Education Bill. The right hon. Gentleman did not realise the depth of feeling on the subject. If Clause 4 was adhered to, Clause 3 would not carry out the declarations of the right hon. Gentleman. They certainly thought that the Bill would secure in voluntary schools the religious teaching which parents desired, but as the clause stood it would do nothing of the kind. If Clause 4 was confined to districts with a population of over 5,000, an injustice would be done to the rural districts, which it would be very difficult to defend when Members were brought face to face with individual cases. There would be plenty of cases on the outskirts of small towns where denominational schools would be preserved under Clause 4 if the local authority so desired, while schools, exactly similarly situated, would be brought to an end simply because they were just outside an urban area. He ventured to say that when these matters were brought before hon. Members in their constituencies they would not find it very easy to defend their support of them in this House. The Minister for Education had said that he wanted the Bill to be received in as friendly a spirit as possible. Did anyone believe that, if the Government ran Clause 3 through in one day, it was possible to expect the people in the rural districts to consider that their case had been fairly treated? Under Clause 3 was their only hope of any relief from what they regarded as unjust to the rural schools. If the right hon. Gentleman insisted on forcing the clause through in one day he would create a feeling of soreness and bitterness which would do more to injure his Bill

1443
than anything else he could do, and it would arouse amongst the supporters of voluntary schools a strong feeling of indignation. Clause 3 had attracted more attention in the country than any other, and he protested against such treatment being meted out to the rural districts which deserved better consideration at the hands of the Government.
MR. BIRRELLrose to reply.
*MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman has already spoken.
LORD R. CECIL: Is there no other right hon. Gentleman who can answer my right hon. friend?
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 124; Noes, 281. (Division List 126.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Billson, Alfred

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Birrell, Rt. Hn. Augustine

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Adkins, W. Ryland

Black, A. W. (Bedfordshire)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Agnew, George William

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E

Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W.

Alden, Percy

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Brace, William

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Armitage, R.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Cory, Clifford John

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Branch, James

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Brigg, John

Cowan, W. H.

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Cremer, William Randal

Astbury, John Meir

Brodie, H. C.

Crombie, John William

Atherley-Jones, L.

Brooke, Stopford

Crooks, William

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs,Leigh)

Crossley, William J.

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

Dalziel, James Henry

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Barker, John

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Barlow, John E. (Somerset)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh

Barnard, E. B.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, N.

Barnes, G. N.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Byles, William Pollard

Dobson, Thomas W.

Beale, W. P.

Cairns, Thomas

Duckworth, James

Beauchamp, E.

Caldwell, James

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Beaumont, H. (Eastbourne)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Beck, A. Cecil

Cawley, Frederick

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Bell, Richard

Chance, Frederick William

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Bellairs, Carylon

Cheetham, John Frederick

Erskine, David C.

Benn, John W. (Devonport)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Essex, R, W.

Benn, W.(T'wrHamlets,S. Geo

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Berridge, T. H. D.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Everett, R. Lacey

Bertram, Julius

Cleland, J. W.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Bethell, J.H.(Essex, Romford)

Clough, W.

Fenwick, Charles

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon

Clynes, J. R.

Ferens, T.R.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Findlay, Alexander

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Levy, Maurice

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lewis, John Herbert

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradfrd

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Fullerton, Hugh

Lough, Thomas

Robinson, S.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Gill, A. H.

Lynch, H. B.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Macdonald, J. R. Leicester)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Glendinning, R. G.

Macdonald, J.M(Falkirk B'ghs

Rose, Charles Day

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Rowlands, J.

Gooch, George Peabody

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Russell, T. W.

Grant, Corrie

Macpherson, J. T.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Arthur, William

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

M'Callum, John M.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

M'Crae, George

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Grove, Archibald

M'Kenna, Reginald

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Micking, Major G.

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B

Maddison, Frederick

Sears, J. E.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Seaverns. J. H.

Hardie, J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln)

Seddon, J.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

Shackleton, David James

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

Marnham, F. J.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

Harwood, George

Massie, J.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Menzies, Walter

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Haworth, Arthur A.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Hedges, A. Paget

Molteno, Percy Alport

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Helme, Norval Watson

Mond, A.

Snowden, P.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Money, L. G. Chioozza

Soares, Ernest J.

Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.

Montagu, E. S.

Stanger, H. Y.

Henry, Charles S.

Montgomery, H. H.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Steadman, W. C.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Hodge, John

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Morrell, Philip

Strachey, Sir Edward

Holland, Sir William Henry

Morse, L. L.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Hooper, A. G.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N

Myer, Horatio

Summerbell, T.

Horniman, Emslie John

Napier, T. B.

Sutherland, J. E.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Hudson, Walter

Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncaster)

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Hyde, Clarendon

Norman, Henry

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Thomas, Sir A (Glamorgan, E.)

Jackson, R. S.

Partington, Oswald

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Paul, Herbert

Thomasson, Franklin

Jardine, Sir J.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Thompson, J. H.W.(Somerset, E

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Tomkinson, James

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye

Torrance, A. M.

Jones, David B. (Swansea)

Perks, Robert William

Toulmin, George

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Ure, Alexander

Jowett, F. W.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Verney, F. W.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Vivian, Henry

Kekewich, Sir George

Pirie, Duncan V.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Kelley, George D.

Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Wallace Robert

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.

Walters, John Tudor

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Radford, G. H.

Walton, Sir J. L. (Leeds, S.)

Laidlaw, Robert

Rainy, A. Rolland

Ward, W. D. (Southampton)

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Wardle, George J.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Lambert, George

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Wason, John Catheart(Orkney)

Lamont, Norman

Rees, J. D.

Waterlow, D. S.

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Rendall, Athelstan

Watt, H. Anderson

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mt'n

Wedgwood. Josiah C.

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Richardson, A.

Weir, James Galloway

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Whitbread, Howard

Lehmann, R. C.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

White, George (Norfolk)

1436

1437

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid

White, Luke (York, E.R,)

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Whitehead, Rowland

Wills, Arthur Walters

Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

Yoxall, James Henry

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Wiles, Thomas

Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Wilkie, Alexander

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Ffrench, Peter

Morpeth, Viscount

Ambrose, Robert

Field, William

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Finch. Rt. Hon. George H.

Murphy, John

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Fletcher. J. S.

Nield, Herbert

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Flynn, James Christopher

Nolan, Joseph

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O.

Forster, Henry William

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

Ashley, W. W.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Balcarres, Lord

Ginnell, L.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Baldwin, Alfred

Haddock, George R.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.)

Halpin, J.

O'Doherty, Philip

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Hamilton, Marquess of

O'Dowd, John

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hammond, John

O'Hare, Patrick

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

O' Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

Barry, E (Cork, S.

Harrison- Broadley, Col. H. B.

O'Malley, William

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh H.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

O'Mara, James

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Neill, Hn. Robert Torrens

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hazleton, Richard

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Blake, Edward

Heaton, John Henniker

Parkes, Ebenezer

Boland, John

Helmsley, Viscount

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds

Percy, Earl

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hills, J. W.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Bull, Sir William James

Hogan, Michael

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Burke, E. Haviland-

Houston, Robert Paterson

Redmond, William (Clare)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Joyce, Michael

Remnant, James Farquharson

Carlile, E. Hildrcd

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Castlereagh, Viscount

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Cave, George

Keswick, William

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Clancy, John Joseph

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Starkey, John R.

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

Liddell, Henry

Sullivan, Donal

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (DublinS

Thornton, Percy M

Craig, Captain Jas. (Down, E.)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Turnour, Viscount

Craik, Sir Henry

Lundon, W.

Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

Cross, Alexander

Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Dairymple, Viscount

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Wid.)

Delany, William

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Dillon, John

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

Dolan, Charles Joseph

M'Killop, W.

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Donelan, Captain A.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Doughty, Sir George

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Younger, George

Du Cros, Harvey

Meagher, Michael

Duncan, R. (Lanark, Govan)

Meehan, Patrick A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Fardell, Sir T. George

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Fell, Arthur

Mooney, J. J.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Fell, Arthur

Murphy, John

Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F.

Ffrench, Peter

Nield, Herbert

Ambrose, Robert

Field, William

Nolan, Joseph

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Fletcher, J. S.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Ashley, W. W.

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Forster, Henry William

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Balcarres, Lord

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Balfour Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond.)

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Doherty, Philip

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Ginnell, L.

O'Dowd, John

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Haddock, George R.

O'Hare, Patrick

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Halpin, J.

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hamilton, Marquess of

O'Malley, William

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hammond, John

O'Mara, James

Blake, Edward

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Boland, John

Hayden, John Patrick

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hazelton, Richard

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Helmsley, Viscount

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bull, Sir William James

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

Redmond, John K. (Waterford)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hogan, Michael

Redmond, William (Clare)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Houston, Robert Paterson

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Joyce, Michael

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Cave, George

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Starkey, John R.

Clancy, John Joseph

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Sullivan, Donal

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Valentia, Viscount

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Craik, Sir Henry

Lundon, W.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Cross, Alexander

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Delany, William

MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Dillon, John

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Dolan, Charles Joseph

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Killop, W.

Doughty, Sir George

Magnus, Sir Philip

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. John Rutherford and Mr. Rawlinson.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Meagher, Michael

Du Cros, Harvey

Meehan, Patrick A.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Mooney, J. J.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Barran, Row land Hirst

Acland, Francis Dyke

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury. E.)

Beauchamp, E.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Beaumont, Hubert Eastbourne

Agnew, George William

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Alden, Percy

Barker, John

Beck, A. Cecil

Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset

Bell, Richard

Armitage, R.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Astbury, John Meir

Barnard, E. B.

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R

Atherley-Jones, L.

Barnes, G. N.

Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Goddard Daniel Ford

Massie, J.

Berridge, T. H. D.

Gooch, George Peabody

Menzies, Walter

Bertram, Julius

Grant, Corrie

Micklem, Nathaniel

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Mond, A.

Billson, Alfred

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Montagu, E. S.

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Montgomery, H. H.

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N. E.)

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Brace, William

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Bramsdon, T. A.

Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)

Morrell, Philip

Branch, James

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

Morse, L. L.

Brigg, John

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Myer, Horatio

Brodie, H. C.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Napier, T. B.

Brooke, Stopford

Haworth, Arthur A.

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Hedges, A. Paget

Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r

Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

Helme, Norval Watson

Norman, Henry

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Nuttall, Harry

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe

Parker, James (Halifax)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hobart, Sir Robert

Partington, Oswald

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Hodge, John

Paul, Herbert

Byles, William Pollard

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Cairns, Thomas

Holland, Sir William Henry

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Caldwell, James

Hooper, A. G.

Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N)

Perks, Robert William

Causton. Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Horniman, Emslie John

Phillips, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Cawley, Frederick

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Chance, Frederick William

Hudson, Walter

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Hyde, Clarendon

Pirie, Duncan V.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Illingworth, Percy H.

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Jackson, R. S.

Radford, G. H.

Cleland, J. W.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Raphael, Herbert H.

Clough, W.

Jardine, Sir J.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Clynes, J. R.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Rendall, Athelstan

Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S.Pancras, W.

Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn

Corbett, CH(Sussex, E. Grinst'd)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Richardson, A.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

Ridsdale, E. A.

Cory, Clifford John

Jowett, F. W.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Kekewich, Sir George

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Cowan, W. H.

Kelley, George D.

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

Cremer, William Randal

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Crooks, William

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Crossley, William J.

Laidlaw, Robert

Robinson, S.

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Lambert, George

Rose, Charles Day

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lamont, Norman

Rowlands, J.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras. N.

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Dobson, Thomas W.

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

Samuel, S. M. (White chapel)

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

Lehmann, R. C.

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Levy, Maurice

Sears, J. E.

Essex, R. W.

Lewis, John Herbert

Seaverns, J. H.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lough, Thomas

Seddon, J.

Everett, R. Lacey

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Shackleton, David James

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Lynch, H. B.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Fenwick, Charles

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Ferens, T. R.

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Sematon, Donald Mackenzie

Findlay, Alexander

M'Arthur, William

Snowden, P.

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

M'Callum, John M.

Soares, Ernest J.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

M'Crace, George

Stanley Hn A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Fuller, John Michael F.

M'Micking, Major G.

Fullerton, Hugh

Maddison, Frederick

Steadman, W. C.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Gill, A. H.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

Stewart-Smith D. (Kendal)

Gladstone Rt. Hn. Herbert John.

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Glendinning, R. G.

Marnham, F. J.

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

1446

1447

Summerbell, T.

Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton

Wills, Arthur Walters

Sutherland, J. E.

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Waterlow, D. S.

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Watt, H. Anderson

Wilson, P, W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Weir, James Galloway

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

White, George (Norfolk)

Winfrey, R.

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid)

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E.

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Torrance, A. M.

Whitehead, Rowland

Yoxall, James Henry

Ure, Alexander

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Verney, F. W.

Wiles, Thomas

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Vivian, Henry

Wilkie, Alexander

Walker, H. De R, (Leicester)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Wallace, Robert

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Walters, John Tudor

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

*MR. LANE-FOXsaid in moving the Amendment which stood in his name he might claim that the clauses to which it referred were clauses of great importance. There was a very strong reason why they should discuss this question with a hope of solving it. It was that so far they were absolutely in the dark as to what Clause 4 meant. The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had both told the House they did not think any extra time was required, because it had been devoted to unimportant details and unnecessary speeches in the past. Nobody who had studied Clause 4 would say it was unimportant. It was infinitely more important than any other clause in the Bill. The Prime Minister had said that this question had been thrashed out, but, if so, what was the meaning of the great feeling that had arisen among the Nonconformists and the appeals that had been made by deputation and in other ways? Beyond the replies to those deputations there was absolutely nothing to indicate to the House what the intentions of the Government were or how this clause would emerge from the Committee. It was a clause of which amendment was demanded from all parts of the House, and sooner or later the President of the Board of Education would have to make up his mind. The right hon. Gentleman had for a long time been shivering on the brink like the bather on the edge of a cold pool, but the time would come when he would have to enter the pool, and the Committee would insist on a far clearer definition of what the clause meant. Clause 4 was the keystone of the Bill. If it were amended in the direction of giving a fairer chance to the religious denomination and a more complete teaching of religious truth, then
1448
it would go a very long way towards removing a great part of the objection which was felt towards the Bill by those who sat on the Opposition side and by some, at any rate, who sat on the Ministerial Benches. If the amendment took that form then the right hon. Gentleman might expect some lasting settlement. But if the clause remained as at present, or was amended in a contrary direction, then there would be a continuance of the strife which they had been deploring for many years, and which would never be settled until this question was dealt with on principles of equity to every denomination and creed in the country. In view of the great issues involved, the divergence of opinion on both sides, and the many possibilities as to amending the clause, it was only reasonable that more than three days should be given to its consideration, and that the financial Resolution should be relegated to another time. If the clause were not thoroughly amended in the direction of the pledges and promises given to the representatives of various denominations, a feeling of soreness would arise which the right hon. Gentleman would deplore perhaps more than any other Member of the House, because they recognised that if the right hon. Gentleman were only left alone by his Party there would be a fair chance of receiving just and fair treatment. The great injustice which would be done to denominational schools under the clause as it stood would leave a permanent unrest and a lasting settlement would be further off than it had ever been. In Clause 4 alone was recognised the right of the denominations to give their own religious teaching in their own schools at the hands of their own teachers. It only partly recognised the right, it was true, but it did recognise it, and that was a great point.

1449
It was a very amazing thing, however, that a great Nonconformist majority in this House should be bent on giving a considerable advantage to the Roman Catholic body at the expense of their Protestant brethren. He did not complain of the rights which were given under this clause to the Roman Catholics, but he would complain bitterly if those rights were not extended to the Church of England. As the clause stood there could be no question that the Roman Catholics and the Jews would have advantages which members of the Church of England and Church of England schools would not have.
*MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERsaid the hon. Gentleman was now discussing the merits of the clauses, and he must confine his remarks to the objects of the Amendment.
*ME. LANE-FOXsaid the point he desired to make was that the questions involved in Clause 4 were so far reaching that it was absolutely necessary that they should have more than three days for their discussion. In 1902 considerable time was given to Clauses 6 and 7, and ten days to Clause 8 of the Act of that year. At least they ought now to be allowed half as long for a clause very much of the same kind in the questions it raised and in its length, as Clause 8 of the Act of 1902. There was the great question as to whether the clause should be mandatory or not. On that point there was a good deal of controversy, not only in the House, but in the country. Another important question which arose was as to whether there was to be complete equality between town and country. The present disparity was bound to give rise to considerable debate, and he hoped at any rate that those who represented rural districts would have much to say as to the possibility of extending these facilities in rural districts. These and other questions which would arise would occasion very considerable discussion, and he hoped they would be thoroughly and efficiently debated, because unless a complete solution was discovered there could be no lasting settlement in the country. Another question which arose was as to the limit of four-fifths. He did not know how the right hon. Gentleman had
1450
arrived at that limit. He agreed that it was very hard on the right hon. Gentle man that an innocent remark as to minorities suffering should have been quoted so freely all over the country, but if he was determined to lay down this rule it was going rather contrary to it to introduce a clause by which twenty-one persons could coerce seventy-nine, and that would be the effect of the four-fifths clause. He wanted to know why this majority should be established and why there should not be a certain right to those schools which could not obtain the recognised majority. He commended those points to the right hon. Gentleman as matters well worth consideration. If it was possible to give alternative religious, instruction of a definite character—
*MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now asking questions which will arise on the clauses but which do not arise now.
MR. LANE-FOXsaid he was trying to show the different questions which would arise, and necessitate a very full and complete debate when this clause came before the Committee. It was absolutely necessary that there should be a full discussion of all these important points. He wished to know whether some hopes could be not held out to them that these matters would be fully discussed. There was the great question of the teachers giving religious instruction in the schools and the restrictions to be imposed and what form they should take. That was a matter to which they attached very great importance. There were other extremely important matters about which discussion was bound to rage hotly. Upon this question he trusted they would have a more definite indication of sympathy and support from those hon. Members opposite who up to the present moment had done so little co justify their name as Liberal Churchmen. He hoped the Minister for Education would give them time to express their opinion. The right hon. Gentleman would have to take sides soon upon this question, and tell the House plainly whether he was going to adopt the view of Dr. Clifford or the view of those who favoured denominational teaching. When the Unionist Party demanded to have the

1451
session brought to a close early in the last Parliament they were told that it was done because they wanted to go away shooting grouse. What was sauce for the Unionists was also sauce for the Liberals, and why could the great Liberal Party not wait a few days longer to shoot their grouse? There was no clause in the Bill which required so much discussion and in regard to which they were so absolutely in the dark as Clause 4, and he felt sure there were no subjects upon which there was so much divergence of opinion as those therein dealt with. He begged to move.
LORD R. CECILseconded the Amendment. As the Resolution stood an enormous mass of subjects would have to be dealt with in these three days, Clause 4 was not only of great length, but the Amendments to it on the Paper already covered eleven pages, and no fewer then fifty of those Amendments were in the names of hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House. Clause 5 was less contentious, but must occupy p certain amount of time, and then there was the Committee stage of the financial Resolution. It was impossible to discuss all this in three days. Many of the proposals in Clause 4 were plainly indefensible when dealt with as matter of logic. He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman opposite that if he would only definitely drop Part IV. of the Bill, he would have an extra day at his disposal. He thought they were fully justified in asking for an extension of one day, considering the widespread interest which Clause 4 excited.
Amendment proposed—
"In line 8, to leave out the word 'three,' and insert the word 'five.' "—(Mr. Lane-Fox.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'three' stand part of the Question."
MR. BIRRELLsaid he was not the man who was likely to dispute the importance of Clause 4, for hardly a day had passed since the Bill had appeared without his receiving a communication from somebody in relation to it. For weeks and months past more thought and attention had been given to Clause 4 than had ever been received by any clause in
1452
any Bill of any Government for a considerable time. There was a tendency to underrate the value of Parliamentary time, and the amount of work that could really be done in it. The noble Lord seemed to suggest that if they could have one other day that would make all the difference. He had no doubt that this Bill raised questions which the noble Lord would like to discuss for ten years, and he did not think they would come to a final solution of them even then. He did not really think that if the Amendment were accepted they would have made much progress on the subject. If hon. Members spoke in the amiable and delightful way in which the hon. Member for. Barkston Ash had addressed: the House, six days might be occupied, particularly if there was no great desire to proceed faster. He had no desire to stifle discussion, but with concentration and a will to get on the time allotted to these clauses would be sufficient. A somewhat sarcastic reference had been made to Liberal Churchmen, and the hon. Member had expressed the hope that they would justify their existence by taking part in the discussion. He himself hoped that by arrangement all views on this particularly well defined subject might be accurately expressed. He admitted that it could only be done by concentration. He had enough experience of Parliament to know how difficult it was to induce people to concentrate their arguments, but he thought three days on Clauses 4 and 5 should be sufficient. Clause 5 was supplementary, and he did not think it ought to take very much time.
LORD BALCARRESreferred to the time it had taken to impress the points made by the Opposition in regard to Clause 2 on the Minister for Education and to secure concessions from him, and stated that the important questions involved in Clauses 4 and 5 and the financial Resolution required all the time claimed by the Amendment. He submitted that an extra day might be of material value in the discussion of the matters raised in those two clauses. If the discussion on Clause 2 had ended on the first day they would never have obtained from the President of the Board of Education the admission

1453
that his Bill was not in accord with, his election pledges.
MR. BIRRELL: I never made any such statement.
LORD BALCARRES: The right hon. Gentleman admitted frankly that there was a gap between Clauses 3 and 4.
MR. BIRRELL: I never said in my introductory speech that there was not a gap. There is a gap.
LORD BALCARRESsaid the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the facilities under Clause 2 were compulsory. They proved to him that they were not compulsory. It was the fact that they had sufficient time that enabled them to prove their case, and if this Closure Resolution had been moved at an earlier stage a great injustice would have been done to the Church of England, which was that portion of the religious community most closely affected by Clause 2. Clause 4 was, he supposed, the most controversial in the Bill, with one exception. It dealt with the extended facilities, but the right hon. Gentleman had never told the House what the extended facilities were. When he introduced the Bill the right hon. Gentleman said it was a clause which would require very grave consideration from all parts of the House. Had it received adequate consideration? He submitted that it would be virtually impossible to discuss this far-reaching clause in the time allotted to it along with other matters. The Minister for Education had described Clause 5 as supplementary, but he did not know that the right hon. Gentleman quite appreciated the position taken up with, regard to religious teaching in the schools. The clause dealt with the future of schools in which distinctive religious teaching was to be given and, so far from being supplementary, it was one of vital moment and importance to which full attention and care should be given. He thought that three days for the discussion of Clause 3 alone would be a very moderate allocation of time. It was all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to tell them to concentrate their arguments. They would undertake to concentrate their
1454
questions if the right hon. Gentleman would undertake to give specific replies. The right hon. Gentleman's replies had not been wholly relevant to the questions put. No explanation had been received on the question of teachers. As to tests, were they or were they not to be abolished under this Bill? These were matters which required discussion. They required explanation by the right hon. Gentleman which had not yet been given. He submitted that the question which would arise on Clause 4 was more than adequate to supply businesslike and concrete discussion for three days. Then, when they came to Clause 5, he assured the right hon. Gentleman that a very large body of English Roman Catholics, whom he represented, considered it a very vital clause.
MR. BIRRELL: Do you object to Clause 5?
LORD BALCARRESsaid he should have a good deal to say about Clause 5, and he hoped that it would not turn out to be illusory and a sham. As to the Committee stage of the financial Resolution, the right hon. Gentleman had said that the discussion on the expenditure of the million pounds would be purely formal.
MR. BIRRELL: At that stage.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that the Committee stage was the fittest on which any question of finance could be I discussed. If the right hon. Gentleman thought that the expenditure of a £1,000,000 was a purely formal affair, he differed very widely from his colleagues, who attached considerable importance to economy and the adequate discussion, of finance. He maintained that on this financial question the House had not had a satisfactory Answer. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education and the right hon. Gentleman had given wholly inconsistent versions as to the object for which this million of money was to be paid. One said that the money was to be given for the purpose of providing rents for the voluntary schools, and the other that it was to be given in relief of the rates. He did not consider that these were the

1455
same objects. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education had assured the House that this million had been specially measured out to meet the proper requirements under the Bill, and that the particular figure had been determined by the amount the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able to provide out of the Budget next year.
*SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that when the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education brought in the Bill, he then said that steps would have to be taken on the passage of the Bill which would throw a heavy additional burden on the rates, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had agreed to a grant from the Exchequer in order to relieve the rates. No doubt that grant would be applied in payment of rent for the voluntary schools. There was no mystery about that.
LORD BALCARRESsaid there was no mystery, and no difficulty; but there was no information.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERsaid he hoped the noble Lord would keep to a discussion of the question before the House.
LORD BALCARRESsaid he was not going to discuss the question of the merits or demerits of the grant; but while he accepted the statement of the right hon. Gentleman as very important indeed, it only showed that it was necessary that they should have more discussion on the point. He hoped the Government would give way and allow the extra time to be devoted to the discussion of this particular group of clauses.
COLONEL WILLIAMSsaid he would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Education which of the clauses in the Bill he considered the most important. Judging by the way in which he had been bombarded with Questions as to Clause 4, that seemed to be most important. Nobody whatever had risen to say that there had been any obstruction on the part of the Opposition to this Bill.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERsaid that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was not in order. The question before the House was whether three or five days' discussion should be given to Clauses 4 and 5 and the Committee stage of the financial Resolution.
COLONEL WILLIAMSsaid he was just going to argue that Clauses 4 and 5 were much more important than Clauses 1 and 2, to the discussion of which six days had been given. They could not get the million of money without passing a Resolution, and, in his opinion, it could not be supposed that Clauses 4 and 5 and the Resolution to spend a million would be passed on the same day. It was strange to find that the Minister for Education had not realised the deep feeling which the proposals in Clause 4 had stirred in the minds of thinking men throughout the country. People were feeling very deeply that the great question of religious education was not being treated very fairly, and he thought that the Government were trying to force this Bill through Parliament without having regard to that deep feeling.
MR. DILLONsaid that if the House could come some agreement on Clauses 3 and 4 he believed they would be doing a greater service to the cause of education than had been done for the last fifty years. He confessed he had been deeply impressed by remarks of the noble Lord the Member for East Maryle-bone, who had said, with great truth, that on the question of religious education there was a certain underlying principle of union between all sections in the House except amongst the sixty Members who had voted for the entire exclusion of religious instruction. The noble Lord had adopted a tone which was quite different from that which had hitherto been displayed upon the Opposition Benches, and had expressed the opinion that some concordat could be arrived at between all those Members of the House who still desired to see the Christian religion maintained as an integral part of the primary education of the country. This was one of the most important questions which could be discussed in Parliament, as he knew that one of the most deeply rooted ideas of some

1457
Members of the House was a desire to see the principles of the Christian religion maintained in the schools. Unless they came to some sort of friendly agreement, however, he feared that ultimately they would have a secular system forced upon them. The country would become saturated with that idea of secular education and that ultimately would, he feared, prevail, and this quarrel would go on. Therefore, he said it was desirable that hon. Members who were desirous of preserving religion and the Bible in the schools should endeavour to arrive at a concordat. There were two ways of dealing with the matter. One was a larger hearted proclamation by the Government that they did not wish to deprive the country of religious education, and the other was the alternative of secular education. Nationalists had never adopted the view that Ministers, or the Minister for Education, desired to deprive the country of religious education. They did not believe that it was the wish of the Government or of the Minister for Education to abolish religious instruction from the schools. Therefore he welcomed the admission of the noble Lord that he found himself to some extent in sympathy with the desire of many of the Nonconformists on the other side of the House. The noble Lord had expressed himself in most eloquent and powerful language, and he had said, with truth, what would be the result if they were to carry on this quarrel to the bitter end. If they were to carry on the quarrel over what he believed to be non-essentials they would, he thought, lose the essentials. Therefore, he appealed to the Government to give on these two great contentious Clauses 3 and 4 greater liberty of discussion. After all it should be remembered that liberty of discussion, even when it had amounted to license, bad resulted in making discussion profitable. He remembered a debate on a very memorable Bill which was a monument of honour to the great statesman who proposed it. He alluded to the Budget Bill of 1894. That was made the subject of the bitterest opposition which he had ever known, and it was obstructed for night after night.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERsaid that he thought the hon. Member was going at great length into the discussion of Clauses 3 and 4, upon an Amendment which only dealt with the length of time which was to be occupied in their discussion.
MR. DILLONsaid that, of course, he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, though as a very old Member of the House he must say that he had thought he was in order in referring to the importance of the clauses in order to justify a demand for a longer period of discussion. He would say, however, from his experience, which had extended over twenty-five years, during as stormy a time as the House of Commons had ever known, that it was a dangerous thing to shorten discussion in cases where deep feeling and passion were aroused. When they shortened discussions they were liable to accentuate passion and feeling, and when subjects which aroused that feeling were forced through without discussion the House had not settled the matter, and in the end they forced the discussion on the country. Therefore, if the discussion on Clauses 3 and 4 were unduly shortened, instead of settling the question, the Government would be only continuing the quarrel. Whether the Committee looked at the matter from the point of view of secular education or from the point of view of religious education, it was of supreme importance that in our struggle with the other nations of the world in regard to the efficient education of our children they should consider the question free from this religious struggle. They could not do that except by coming to some concordat or some agreement on the religious question, and the reason why he pressed for some further time for the discussion of Clauses 3 and 4 was that he was deeply convinced that if they had more time for discussion they might come to an agreement He could not bring himself to believe that, given adequate time for discussion, hon. Gentlemen opposite who were Liberals would bind themselves to the principle in the Bill, As the Bill now stood it appeared that hon. Gentlemen opposite were determined to force Roman Catholics and the representatives of the Church of England to pay rates for the purposes of religious instruction

1459
to which they were opposed, without giving any security that their religious convictions would be respected. The system of refusing to pay rates could be practised on both sides. Nationalists had paid rates for years for religious instruction to which they were entirely opposed, but English Liberals had set them the example of passive resistance, and could not they also resist passively and perhaps actively too? Did the Government think that they were going to settle this question by setting up as great and perhaps a greater injustice than that against which they had protested at the last election? No one could accuse him of being a friend or partisan of either the Church of England or of Nonconformity. Therefore, he was more fitted to speak on this subject than some others, and he said that if the Government forced these clauses through without adequate discussion—clauses which every Member must admit would strike deeply and fundamentally the consciences of the vast masses of people in this country— they would inevitably strengthen the hands of another section of the Legislature with whom they would have to deal. Let the Government take care that they did not lose their Bill, because the time might come when they would be face to face with a General Election on this matter. Unless they gave full time for the consideration of these questions it would be urged with great force against them that they had not allowed their opponents to urge their objections to their proposals. When the Government were dealing with a Bill which touched the convictions of the people they ought to he not only just, but even generous, and he might say that they ought to go fur beyond what they considered even to be reasonable. He did not think it was at all impossible to arrive at a reasonable agreement in regard to Clauses 3, 4 and 5. If Clauses 3 and 4 were modified so as to embody the declarations of the Government the Nationalist Members would support the Bill. He did not share in the complaint against the Government that they did not put their Amendment on the Paper in regard to Clause 2, because until they knew into what shape Clauses 3 and 4 were going to be
1460
cast they would themselves be unable to say what their attitude would be towards Clause 2. He earnestly urged hon. Members on both sides to approach the consideration of Clauses 3 and 4 with a reasonable attitude of mind. If they did not do so, and arrive at some settlement, they must carry on the war; but let not the Government, if this quarrel were continued, lay the flattering unction to their soul that they were going to force the country to accept Clauses 3 and 4 without some arrangement such as he had indicated having been come to. It was true that the Second Reading of the Bill was carried by a large majority, but so also was the Bill of 1902. The Government had carried the Second Reading of the Bill by a large majority, but the late Government carried theirs with a much larger. That was only four years ago, and what was their position to-day? Was there no lesson for the Government in that experience? Were they prepared to go back to the country on this question alone with all their promises unfulfilled? That was what they might have to do.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order, order. The hon. Member is digressing a little beyond the Amendment, which is that five days be given to these particular clauses.
MR. DILLONsaid this question might be involved. He merely wished to point out that it was not for the purposes of controversy that he had I spoken as he had done, but with an earnest and sincere desire that peace might prevail.
MR. T. W. RUSSSELLsaid he thought there was the strongest case for the Government's reconsidering this part of the Resolution. After all, Clause 4 was a great part of the Bill. He could hardly understand how the Government came to arrange that only three days should be given to these two most important clauses. There was a very strong body of Nonconformists bitterly hostile to Clause 4, and they would probably move its exclusion. Once the debate was started did anyone tell him that it would be possible to get rid of it in less than a day?

1461
Then there was the point that the clause should be made mandatory. The Minister for Education had stated that he desired that it should not be an illusory clause. He meant it to work. There were a large number of Members —he was one—who believed that the clause would not work unless it was made mandatory. Would that question be disposed of in a day? Then again, once they got into the "four - fifths" question all sorts of other questions would arise. It was absurd to suppose that three days would suffice for Clause 4. On that part of the Bill the debate should not be cribbed, cabined and confined. He voted in every division against the Bill of 1902. He hated it. Small concessions in that Bill would have saved them all the trouble they were having now. He did not want to have all this work to do again. He was willing to remove all the legitimate grievances of the Nonconformists, but he would not be a party to putting a grievous burden upon other people.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was impelled to rise to support the arguments of the hon. Member for South Tyrone. It seemed proper to listen with great attention and deference to those arguments which came from hon. Members behind the Government and from Nationlist Members, although those which came from the Opposition might in the eyes of the Government seem less worthy of attention. The very structure of the Bill made it incumbent on them to urge their Amendments with heat and almost with passion when they had Clause 1 before them, and they were perilously near going out of order. When they pressed their arguments on Clause 1 they were told that their objections would be met when they came to this part of the Bill. It was admitted that six days was not too much for the discussion of Clauses 1 and 2. They could not have got through Clause 1 and part of Clause 2 but for the statements of the Minister for Education, and almost every member of the Government, who said that when they came to Clause 4 their doubts would be solved, their fears dissipated, and all their objections met. If it took six days to adjourn the discussions on those points
1462
was it proper now to say that they could be discussed in three? The Government might dispose of the Bill, but it could, not dispose of the question, and if the Government disposed of the Bill and did not dispose of the question, so far from meeting the views of hon. Members below the gangway, so far from curing the ill, they would leave a festering sore. If there was a chance of meeting the objections that had been urged by giving more time to the discussion of Clause 4 then he said in all earnestness and sincerity the Government would be made to adhere to this time limit and refuse to listen to the arguments now addressed to them. The debate on Clause 1 lasted six days, but that debate would stand as a delusion and a snare unless at least an equal amount of time was given for the discussion of the most important questions raised by Clause 4.
MR. J. W. WILSONsaid that if the Government were not pressed for a day or two, and they were to have an autumn session, he could not see that there was any reason why they should be unwilling to give something more than three days to this long and important clause. Besides points in the clause, there were many which were not in it, such as contracting out, which had a great many supporters in the House. The discussions which had been going on in the country had been most declamatory, but there was no reason to suppose that the discussions in the House would not be practical, and he hoped that the practical discussion which was to be looked for on Clauses 4 and 5 would not be limited to three days. When they had the rest of the session and the autumn session he thought, as the hon. Member for East Mayo had said, the chances of the Bill could not be injured, but might be helped by a free, and, if they liked, exhausting discussion.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was surprised that no one had risen from the Treasury Bench to answer the appeal not merely of his hon. friends behind him, who being the regular Opposition, deserved, perhaps, no particular attention or consideration, but of supporters of the Government on both sides of the House.

1463
He was bound to say that the Minister for Education was in a difficult position. The point was a matter not for the right hon. Gentleman, but for the Leader of the House. The Prime Minister was absent for reasons which they all profoundly deplored, but he thought the House had reason to complain that there was no second-in-command present to give a decision on this question, which was not immediately connected with the Education Bill, but had to do with the general conduct of Parliamentary business. The Minister for Education had exhausted his right of speaking, and no other Member of Cabinet rank had been on the Front Bench during the greater part of the discussion. The result was that they were not in a position to make an appeal to those who alone could answer it. Might he, for the benefit of the Secretary of State for India, who had just come into the House, briefly recapitulate the main points which had been put from all quarters of the House? He would begin with the least important, though much more important than the Minister for Education appeared to suppose, and they were the financial provisions which were thrust in at the end of this particular portion of the Resolution. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Committee stage of the financial Resolution was formal, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education cheered that observation. He would undertake to say that when the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Opposition he never allowed that stage to pass without giving the Committee the benefit of a long speech. At the present moment the financial plans of the Government were absolutely obscured, and relatively unimportant as was the financial Resolution compared with the other points now brought before them, it was one which could not be ignored. The main point, however, were the religious controversies raised by Clauses 3, 4, and 5. He himself had been accused of unduly curtailing debate. The hon. Member for South Tyrone had asserted that if he had made a very small concession upon the religious clauses of the Bill of 1902, this Bill need not have been introduced. Therefore his conduct as Leader of the House and
1464
Minister in charge of the Bill of 1902 might be regarded as representing the high-water mark of wickedness in the way of restricting debate upon this religious question. Then let the Government, follow his example or rather better it. For Clause 2 of the Bill of 1902 he allowed, not three days, but nineteen-and-a-half days. Were this Government, who came in largely to restore the liberties of Parliament, going to allow only three days, when their predecessors—the tyrants, the bullies, the oppressors of minorities—gave nineteen-and-a-half days? He agreed with much that had fallen from the hon. Member for East Mayo and from his noble friend behind him as to the large measure of agreement which might be arrived at by those who were genuinely anxious for religious education in the schools. He did not know that he was as sanguine as they were, but he was certainly not going to chill their enthusiasm by expressing any doubts of his own. At all events, let the House be given the chance to hammer out this difference. What would the Government lose by giving such a chance? If the Bill left this House with every religious passion aroused and every controversy unsettled, it would give those in another place an opportunity of dealing with the measure in their own way—it would give them a chance which, as a Party politician, he might rejoice at, but which, as a Member of the House of Commons, he personally would regret. He wished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had heard the persuasive appeal of the hon. Member for East Mayo. The Opposition might be under suspicion, but the hon. Member could be under none. His avowed object was to smooth the path of the Government, if possible. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had heard that speech he did not think he could have resisted it, and he thought that if the right hon. Gentleman would consult the opinion of hon. Members sitting behind him he would find that they felt as the members of the Opposition felt upon this subject. [" No."] He had had considerable practice in gauging the unexpressed feeling of the House, and he believed that the majority of Members opposite really desired to see a large and generous concession in this matter. He wished to emphasise the appeal which

1465
had been made by other speakers, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would make inquiries he would find that he had made no error, and had given no incorrect view as to the feelings which animated hon. Members on both sides of the House in regard to this question. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to make an important modification in this proposal, and if he had that authority this was the proper time to exercise it.
MR. BIRRELLsaid that if he stood alone, and there were no other consideration but the Education Bill to think of, he should very much deprecate the resort to the closure. But other Ministers and Members had rights. The scheme of closure had been made out so as to allot every day of the time between now and the proposed autumn adjournment, and it was only possible to give another day to this most important clause. On the understanding that the House was willing to sit not only on Saturday, August 4th, but also on Saturday, July 28th, the Government would give another day to the discussion of Clause 4.
MR. ASQUITH: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that offer?
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that he must honestly say that he was unable to understand the basis of this compromise, if it could be called a compromise. The right hon. Gentleman had got an autumn session before him, and it was not reasonable to ask the House to deal with this most critical of all questions on a Saturday in the dog-days. For the Government to believe that it was meeting the wishes of the House to give two Saturdays for discussion when there was an autumn session before them was surely a most unreasonable proposal. But though the Opposition were a helpless minority, he hoped that the Government would not ask it to receive this suggestion now made either with acceptance or with gratitude.
Question put.
The House Divided:—Ayes, 335; Noes, 169. (Division List No. 127.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Billson, Alfred

Cooper, G. J.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd

Agnew, George William

Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Alden, Percy

Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

Cory, Clifford John

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Armitage, R.

Brace, William

Cowan, W. H.

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Bramsdon, T. A.

Cremer, William Randal

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Branch, James

Crooks, William

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Brigg, John

Crosfield, A. H.

Astbury, John Meir

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Crossley, William J.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Brodie, H. C.

Dalziel, James Henry

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Brooke, Stopford

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.)

Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S

Barker, John

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Barlow, John Emmott(Somerset

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras. N.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Dobson, Thomas W.

Barnard, E. B.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Duckworth, James

Barnes, G. N.

Byles, William Pollard

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Fumes

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Cairns, Thomas

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Beale, W. P.

Caldwell, James

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne

Beauchamp, E.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbourne

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Cawley, Frederick

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Beck, A. Cecil

Cherry, Rt. Hon.R. R.

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Bell, Richard

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Essex, R. W.

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

Cleland, J. W.

Everett, R. Lacey

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Clough, J. W.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Fenwick, Charles

Bertram, Julius

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Ferens, T. R.

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Findlay, Alexander

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Rickett, J. Compton

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

Ridsdale, E. A.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lehmann, R. C.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Fullerton, Hugh

Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

Furness, Sir Christopher

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.)

Levy, Maurice

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Lewis, John Herbert

Robinson, S.

Gill, A. H.

Lough, Thomas

Robson, Sir William Snowdon.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Lupton, Arnold

Roe, Sir Thomas

Glendinning, R. G.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Glover, Thomas

Lynch, H. B.

Rose, Charles Day

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Rowlands, J.

Grant, Corrie

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs.

Runciman, Walter

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Maclean, Donald

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Grove, Archibald

Macpherson, J. T.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

M'Arthur, William

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Gulland, John W.

M'Callum, John M.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Crae, George

Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

M'Micking, Major G.

Scott, A. H. (Ashtonunder Lyne)

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Sears, J. E.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Seaverns, J. H.

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithness-sh

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

Seddon, J.

Hart-Davies, T.

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Shackleton, David James

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Massie, J.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Harwood, George

Menzies, Walter

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Simon, John Allsebrook

Haworth, Arthur A.

Mond, A.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Hedges, A. Paget

Montagu, E. S.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Helme, Norval Watson

Montgomery, H. H.

Snowden, P.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Soares, Ernest J.

Henry, Charles S.

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Stanger, H. Y.

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Morrell, Philip

Steadman, W. C.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Morse, L. L.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Higham, John Sharp

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Myer, Horatio

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hodge, John

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Nicholson, Chas. H. (Doncaster

Summerbell, T.

Hooper, A. G.

Norman, Henry

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Horniman, Emslie John

Nuttall, Harry

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Parker, James (Halifax)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Partington, Oswald

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Hudson, Walter

Paul, Herbert

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Hyde, Clarendon

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Thompson, J.W.H. (Somerset, E

Illingworth, Percy H.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Tomkinson, James

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Toulmin, George

Jackson, R. S.

Perks, Robert William

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Jacoby, James Alfred

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton

Ure, Alexander

Jardine, Sir J.

Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

Verney, F. W.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Vivian, Henry

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

Pirie, Duncan V.

Wallace, Robert

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pollard, Dr.

Walters, John Tudor

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Jowett, F. W.

Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Ward, John ((Stoke upon Trent

Kekewich, Sir George

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.)

Ward, W. Dudley (Southa'pt'n

Kelley, George D.

Radford, G. H.

Wardle, George J.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Rainy, A. Rolland

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Laidlaw, Robert

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Waterlow, D. S.

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Weir, James Galloway

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rees, J. D.

Whitbread, Howard

Lambert, George

Rendall, Athelstan

White, George (Norfolk)

Lamont, Norman

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Richardson, A.

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

1468

1469

Whitehead, Rowland

Williams, L. (Carmarthen)

Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Williamson, A.(Elgin andNairn)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Wills, Arthur Walters

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf 'd

Wiles, Thomas

Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)

Wilkie, Alexander

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Winfrey, R.

NOES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

Ffrench, Peter

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Ambrose, Robert

Field, William

Nield, Herbert

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Nolan, Joseph

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Fletcher, J. S.

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Arnold- Forster,Rt.Hn. Hugh O.

Forster, Henry William

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Ashley, W. W.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Connor T. P. (Liverpool)

Balcarres, Lord

Ginnell, L.

O'Doherty, Philip

Baldwin, Alfred

Haddock, George R,

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.)

Halpin, J.

O'Dowd, John W

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Hamilton Marquess of

O'Hare, Patrick

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hammond, John

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd)

O'Malloy, William

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

O'Mara, James

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Hazleton, Richard

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Beckett, Hn. Gervase

Heaton, John Henniker

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Helmsley, Viscount

Percy, Earl

Blake, Edward

Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Boland, John

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hogan, Michael

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Bull, Sir William James

Houston, Robert Paterson

Redmond, William (Clare)

Burdett-Coutts, VV.

Joyce, Michael

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Russell, T. W.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Keswick, William

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Cave, George

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

Lambton, Hn. Frederick Win.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Chance, Frederick William

Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Clancy, John Joseph

Lockwood, Rt. Hn., Lt. -Col. A. R.

Starkey, John R.

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Sullivan, Donal

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.

Sutherland, J. E.

Cogan, Denis J.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lundon, W.

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Thornton, Percy M.

Courthope, G. Loyd

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancash.)

Craig, Captain Jas. (Down, E.)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Walrond, Hn. Lionel

Craik, Sir Henry

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Watt, H. Anderson

Cross, Alexander

M'Killop, W.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Dairymple, Viscount

Magnus, Sir Philip

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Delany, William

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wilson, A.Stanley (York, E.R.)

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Marnham, F. J.

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N)

Dillon, John

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Meagher, Michael

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Meehan, Patrick A.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Donelan, Captain A.

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Younger, George

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Du Cros, Harvey

Mooney, J. J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland - Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Morpeth, Viscount

Faber, George Denison (York)

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Fell, Arthur

Murphy, John

MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid that after the debate which they had just had
1470
he did not think it necessary to make any lengthened remarks on the Amendment

1471
standing in his name, because the President of the Board of Education had admitted the whole of its principle. It was almost inevitable that some time should be taken up in the discussion of the financial Resolution after the decision of the Government in regard to Clause 13.
Amendment proposed—
In line 8, to leave out the words "Clauses 4 and 5 and the Committee stage of the financial Resolution "and insert the word" Clause 4. "—(Mr. Laurence Hardy.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question. "
MR. RAWLINSONsaid that in regard to the financial arrangements differences might arise in view of the Answer which had been given by the President of the Board of Education to a Question put by the noble Lord the Member for East Marylebone. That Answer was that the new grant would be distributed in accordance with regulations to be shortly issued; but those regulations had not yet been issued, and the grants in aid might not be given necessarily to the voluntary schools, but to others.
*THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH,)thought it would show the spirit in which these Amendments were being moved if he pointed out that there was not a single Amendment down to Clause 5 from the other side of the House. In regard to the financial Resolution, he had got into trouble for applauding the Leader of the Opposition when the right hon. Gentleman expressed the opinion that this ought to be taken in Committee as an entirely formal stage.
MR. A. J. BALFOURdenied that he had said so. What he had said was that this was one of the peculiar safeguards which were erected b our remote ancestors, and he went on to say that the Opposition in the late Parliament entirely adopted that view. He also pointed out that there never was an Amendment in regard to this matter which the Parliamentary Secretary did not speak about. That statement was, he believed, uncontradicted, but he had said that however
1472
short the discussion on the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution might be, it was upon that that the Government should explain their plan. The Government in this case had never explained their plan in regard to finance, and when one came to explain an elaborate financial proposition, it was obvious that some time must be taken up in doing so. That was the point he made.
*MR. LOUGHsaid he would leave the matter where the right hon. Gentleman had left it. The financial Resolution was, as he understood the right hon. Gentleman, a formal stage which had been bequeathed to us by our ancestors. There was no need for a discussion then and it could more conveniently take place later.
MR. A. J. BALFOURremarked that he had never wished to abolish it.
*MR. LOUGHsaid the right hon. Gentleman probably would abolish it. He himself had secured a reform of their procedure in this respect. For many years this stage was regarded as being so purely formal that the terms of the Resolution were not even placed upon the Paper, and the House were asked to pass the stage without knowing the terms of the Motion. Owing to the lucid exposition which he and others gave of the matter a most valuable reform was carried out under which the House had occasionally enjoyed the advantage of seeing the terms of the Resolution. If anybody now wanted information they had only to look at page 20 of the Order Paper that day and they would find every reasonable explanation of it that they could expect. There were no less than four stages of the Resolution—the Committee stage a purely formal one, with a Report stage to follow; then the clause, to be again followed by a report. There was no reason whatever for adopting the Amendment and he hoped that the mover would withdraw it.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not want to traverse the field in which the hon. Member had described his Paliamentary triumph in regard to this Resolution. In his view the Committee stage of the Resolution corresponded with the Second Reading of a Bill. He was

1473
sorry to hear that the Government had adopted this most unorthodox and heretical practice, and he did not think it should relieve them of the necessity of explaining the proposals which they made. The fact that they had not explained their proposals made the Committee stage far more important than it otherwise would be. What were the calculations as to time which made the Government so reluctant to give an additional day? The Prime Minister evidently had the figures in his possession, but he had given no precise dates in explaining the arrangements for the session. He had talked vaguely about holidays and about the House rising at the end of July or the beginning of August and meeting in October; but he gave no dates, although he apparently had them, because it was evidently only consistent with their plan that the Government could on no account give them another day without two Saturday sittings. Why two Saturday sittings should be equivalent to one weekday passed his Parliamentary arithmetic. If Clause 5 with regard to transferred voluntary schools were not proceeded with, it would give more time for the consideration of Clause 4, and he thought that the House would agree with him that they were discussing matters of such importance that the least the Government could do would be to take them into their confidence, and tell them why it was that two additional days could not be given to them without upsetting the Government arrangements. What were the arrangements so delicately poised that the balance of a few hours on one side or the other would precipitate the Government into the abyss?
MR. ASQUITH: If possible we should separate on August 4th.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: What does the right hon. Gentleman expect us to do before this fateful August 4th.
MR. ASQUITH: Pass the Education Bill.
LORD R. CECILsaid that of all the answers ever given to a request made to a Minister from the Front Opposition
1474
Bench the answer just given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the most unsatisfactory. Because the Opposition were in a small minority, the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it right to reply in what he could not but describe as a grossly insolent manner. ["Order."]
MR. SPEAKERsaid he did not think the words "grossly insolent" were in order.
LORD R. CECILwithdrew the expression, and said he extremely regretted that in the heat of the moment he should have been betrayed into an expression, which he asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to believe to have been an intentional insult, but merely rather a hasty summary of his feelings. A Paper was at that moment circulating on the Treasury Bench evidently containing a schedule of dates. He thought the Government would see that it would be only courteous to give the information for which the Opposition had asked. He moved the adjournment of the debate in order to give the Government an opportunity of giving further information.
*MR. SPEAKERreminded the noble Lord that it had been decided that the House should sit beyond eleven o'clock, and said he could not accept the Motion.
MR. WALTER LONGthought the position in which they found themselves was one for which old Members of the House, to whom he especially appealed, would find it difficult to discover a precedent. They had been told in a single sentence that the object of the Government was simply and solely to terminate this portion of the session on August 4th. It was the constitutional right of the Opposition to ask the Leader of the House of Commons, or his representative, what business the Government proposed to take. That question had been asked, and the answer was that it was intended to adjourn on August 4th. No statement as to business had been made or as to what the House would be asked to do on the two Saturday sittings it was proposed to take. So far as they know it was proposed that those two sittings should be extra days for the discussion of this Bill.
MR. ASQUITH: Oh, no.
MR. WALTER LONGsaid it was all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say "Oh, no"; he should give the information in a little longer Answer. All he could say was that according to the information in the possession of the Opposition, it might be that these two extra Saturdays were to be given to the Education Bill. The Government were taking the worst possible step to make that Bill a message of peace. They were consoling themselves with the reflection that the opposition came from a few people who, it was said, had a vested interest in the question. It was nothing of the kind. It was a genuine opposition. The demand that was made upon the Government was a reasonable one, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not treated the Opposition fairly, or with that consideration which it was accustomed to have.
MR. ASQUITHsaid that nothing was further from his thoughts than to be guilty of anything in the nature of
discourtesy. The view of the Government was that the work of this part of the session should be concluded on Saturday, August 4th. In order to conclude the necessary financial business of the session they were prepared to ask the House to sit on that Saturday. With that exception, and with the exception of three Fridays, they were prepared to give the whole time between now and then to the Education Bill and the necessary business of Supply. Two of the Fridays were private Members' Fridays. The third Friday would be devoted, it might be, to the Trades Disputes Bill or some other Bill—he was not in a position to say; but he said quite frankly that the object of the Government was that the House should rise on August 4th. They would take on that Saturday the final stage of the Appropriation Bill. If it was necessary to devote more time to the Education Bill, they would devote a Saturday sitting to it.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 362; Noes, 175. (Division List No. 128.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda

Bertram, Julius

Cleland, J. W.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Bethell, J.H. (Essex. Romford)

Clough, W.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Coats, SirT.Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Agnew, George William

Billson, Alfred

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Black, Arthur W(Bedfordshire)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Alden, Percy

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

Collins, Sir Wm. J(S Pancras W.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Cooper, G. J.

Armitage, R.

Brace, William

Corbett, CH(Sussex, EGrinst'd

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Bramsdon, T. A.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Branch, James

Cory, Clifford John

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

Brigg, John

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Astbury, John Meir

Bright, J. A.

Cowan, W. H.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Cremer, William Randal

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Brodie, H. C.

Crombie, John William

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

Brooke, Stopford

Crooks, William

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

Crosfield, A. H.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

Crossley, William J.

Barker, John

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Dalziel, James Henry

Barlow, John E. (Son erset)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Davies, D. (Montgomery Co.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Barnard, E. B.

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Davies, M. Yaughan-(Cardigan

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Burt, Rt. Hn. Thomas

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Beale, W. P.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Beauchamp, E.

Byles, William Pollard

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

Cairns, Thomas

Dickinson, WH(St. Pancras, N.

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Caldwell, James

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Beck, A. Cecil

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Bell, Richard

Causton, Rt Hn Richard Knight

Duckworth, James

Bellairs, Carlyon

Cawley, Frederick

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Chance, Frederick William

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Benn, John Williams(Devo'p't

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Benn, W.(T'wr Hamlets, S. Geo.)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Berridge T. H. D.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Jowett, F. W.

Perks, Robert William

Erskine, David C.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton

Essex, R. W.

Kekewich, Sir George

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Kelley, George D.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Everett, R. Lacey

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Fenwick, Charles

Kitson, Sir James

Pollard, Dr.

Ferens, T. R.

Laidlaw, Robert

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Findlay, Alexander

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir Walter

Lambert, George

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

Lamont, Norman

Radford, G. H.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Rainy, A. Holland

Fullerton, Hugh

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Raphael, Herbert H.

Furness, Sir Christopher

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Lehmann, R. C.

Rees, J. D.

Gill, A. H.

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Rendall, Athelstan

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Richard, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

Glendinning, R. G.

Levy, Maurice

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'm't'n

Glover, Thomas

Lewis, John Herbert

Richardson, A.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Rickett, J. Compton

Gooch, George Peabody

Lough, Thomas

Ridsdale, E. A.

Grant, Corrie

Lupton, Arnold

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Grey Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Lynch, H. B.

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E (Dundee

Grove, Archibald

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Macdonald, JM(Falkirk B'ghs.)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Gulland John W.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Robinson, S.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Maclean, Donald

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Hall, Frederick

Macpherson, J. T.

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

M'Arthur, William

Rose, Charles Day

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

M'Callum, John M.

Rowlands, J.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

M'Crae, George

Runciman, Walter

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

M'Micking, Major G.

Rutherford, V.H. (Brentford)

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'sssh

Maddison, Frederick

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

Hart-Davies, T.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Harwood, George

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Marnham, F. J.

Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Haworth, Arthur A.

Massie, J.

Sears, J. E.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Seaverns, J. H.

Hedges, A. Paget

Menzies, Walter

Seddon, J.

Helme, Norval Watson

Micklem, Nathaniel

Shackleton, David James

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Mond, A.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Henry, Charles S.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Hon., S.

Montagu, E. S.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Montgomery, H. H.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Higham, John Sharp

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Hodge, John

Morrell, Philip

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Morse, L. L.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Holland, Sir William Henry

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Soares, Ernest J.

Hooper, A. G.

Murray, James

Stanger, H. Y.

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Myer, Horatio

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh).

Horniman, Emslie John

Napier, T. B.

Steadman, W. C.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Newnes, F. (Notts. Bassetlaw)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Howard, Hn. Geoffrey

Newnes, Sir George(Swansea)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Hudson, Walter

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hyde, Clarendon

Norman, Henry

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Nuttall, Harry

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Jackson, R. S.

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Summerbell, T.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Parker, James (Halifax)

Sutherland, J. E.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Partington, Oswald

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Paul, Herbert

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Jones, David B. (Swansea)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

1478

1479

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Wardle, George J.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

Thomasson, Franklin

Wason, John (Cathcart, Orkney

Williamson, A. (Elgin & Nairn)

Thompson, JWH (Somerset, E.

Waterlow, D. S.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Tomkinson, James

Watt, H. Anderson

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Toulmin, George

Wedgwood, Josiah C,

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Weir, James Galloway

Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.

Ure, Alexander

Whitbread, Howard

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Verney, F. W.

White, George (Norfolk)

Winfrey, W.

Villiers, Ernest Amherst

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid)

Vivian, Henry

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Whitehead, Rowland

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

Wallace, Robert

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Yoxall, James Henry

Walters, John Tudor

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Walton, Sir J. L. (Leeds, S.)

Wiles, Thomas

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wilkie, Alexander

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Dillon, John

Lundon, W.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Ambrose, Robert

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Maclver, David (Liverpool)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Donelan, Captain A.

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Doughty, Sir George

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. HughO

Du Cros, Harvey

M'Killop, W.

Ashley, W. W.

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

Magnus, Sir Philip

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Balcarres, Lord

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Baldwin, Alfred

Fardell, Sir T. George

Meagher, Michael

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond.

Fell, Arthur

Meehan, Patrick A.

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Ffrench, Peter

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Field, William

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Banner, John S. Harwood-

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Mooney, J. J.

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Fletcher, J. S.

Morpeth, Viscount

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Flynn, James Christopher

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Forster, Henry William

Murphy, John

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Peters field

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Nield, Herbert

Blake, Edward

Ginnell, L.

Nolan, Joseph

Boland, John

Gordon, Sir W. Evans-(T'rHam.)

O' Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid

Bowles, G. Stewart

Haddock, George R.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Halpin, J.

O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hamilton, Marquess of

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hammond, John

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Bull, Sir William James

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

O'Doherty, Philip

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

O'Dowd, John

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Hare, Patrick

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hazleton, Richard

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Helmsley, Viscount

O'Malley, William

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

O'Mara, James

Cave, George

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

Parker, Sir Gilbert(Gravesend)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hogan, Michael

Parkes, Ebenezer

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Percy, Earl

Cheetham, John Frederick

Joyce, Michael

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Clancy, John Joseph

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnH.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos.H. A. E.

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W

Redmond, John E. Waterford

Cogan, Denis J.

Keswick, William

Redmond, William (Clare)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North))

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Russell, T. W.

Craig, Captain James(Down,E.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Craik, Sir Henry

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Cross, Alexander

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Dairymple, Viscount

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Delany, William

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

1480

1481

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Valentia, Viscount

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Snowden, P.

Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

Younger, George

Starkey, John R.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Sullivan, Donal

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Laurence Hardy and Mr. Rawlinson.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(OxfnUniv.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E.R.)

Thornton, Percy M.

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

MR. LOUGHsaid the Government were prepared to accept the following Amendment—
"That two days he given, if required, to Clauses 6 and 7 and the Report Stage of the financial Resolution, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the second of these allotted days."
Amendment proposed—
"In line 12, to leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of line 14, and insert the words 'two days be given, if required, to Clauses 6 and 7, and the Report Stage of the financial Resolution, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the second of these allotted days.' "—(Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not rise to resist the Amendment or to criticise it. But it was far more important to have an additional day for the discussion of Clause 4 than for the discussion of Clauses 6 and 7. He did not know why the Government had made this concession while refusing to make the other. The points at issue in Clauses 6 and 7 were not comparable in importance with the points at issue in Clause 4. The more they saw of the Government's method of carrying out this Closure Resolution, the more astonishing it seemed to be. The Government had refused to give them an additional day upon something which was universally agreed to be a vital matter [Cries of "No, no."] What did the offer mean? It was that if the Government gave them a day the Opposition were to give two Saturdays to business unspecified. So important did they think it to get into the country on Saturday, August 4th rather than on Monday, the 6th, or Tuesday, the 7th, that this Government, who reproached the late Government with being luxurious, with sacrificing the business of the country to their own
1482
personal ease and comfort, would not even trench on their August holidays by two days in order that this vital part of the Bill might be considered. The Government had tossed them this day. They accepted it, but the mere fact that the Government had given it on Clauses 6 and 7 rather than on Clause 4 showed the spirit in which they were approaching the discussion on the Bill and how utterly they misunderstood not merely the temper of the House, but, what was far more important, the temper of the country.
MR. DILLONsaid he strongly sympathised with the view expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. He could not conceive what ideas were in the mind of the Government when they thought it was a fair and reasonable allocation of time to give two whole days to the consideration of Clauses 6 and 7, and only three days to the consideration of Clauses 4 and 5. That was a most amazing declaration on the part of the Government as to the comparative value they attached to the clauses of the Bill. Clauses 6 and 7 might be to some extent contentious, but Clauses 4 and 5 were in the highest degree contentious. He thought that the allocation of two days to Clauses 6 and 7 was, as compared with three days for Clauses 4 and 5, a most preposterous allocation.
MR. ASQUITHsaid the Government had offered an additional day for Clause 4, but the Leader of the Opposition was so anxious to have two additional days that he would not accept one.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that no such offer on behalf of the Government reached the Opposition. What was said was that the Government would give an additional day if the Opposition consented to sit on two Saturdays. The right hon. Gentleman came to him personally and made the offer, and he had asked, "What are the two days for?"
MR. ASQUITHsaid that meant that the right hon. Gentleman, rather than assent to the House sitting on two Saturdays, refused to accept one additional day.
MR. WALTER LONGsaid the Chancellor of the Exchequer persisted in putting the case in regard to the Opposition in an unfair manner. The offer made was that one extra day would be given on the understanding that the House agreed to sit on two Saturdays. The offer of the extra day was conditional, and the Opposition did not assent to the condition.
SIR FRANCIS LOWEasked whether it was too late now to accept the conditional offer.
Question put and negatived. Proposed words inserted.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that the effect of the Amendment on Clause 2 proposed by the Government would make it necessary to recast Clause 8, which would add enormously to the duties of the Board of Education, and that would necessitate considerable discussion. He certainly did not quarrel with the Government that they had been driven to leave out Part II. of the Bill, and therefore he contented himself with moving the Amendment standing in his name.
Amendment proposed—
"In line 15, to leave out the word 'three' and to insert the word 'five.' "—(Lord Balcarres.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'three' stand part of the Question."
MR. BIRRELLsaid it was perfectly impossible for the Government to accede to this Amendment. If hon. Gentlemen would concentrate their attention on the really important subjects under consideration, there would be ample time for their consideration. He admitted that the school endowments of this country should be placed upon a proper footing, and Part II might reappear at some future time. He believed that it was perfectly possible for the Committee to consider these questions seriously without making Second Reading speeches on every possible occasion.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, or one of his colleagues, whether it was not obvious that, after the promised Amendment to Clause 2, great alterations would have to be made on Clause 8. They had not the least conception of the alterations which were to be made on Clause 8, which necessarily would be of a far-reaching character. Therefore, they were discussing this question in the dark, because it was impossible to forecast what the discussions would be when these alterations were proposed.
MR. BIRRELLsaid he would make a statement on the subject afterwards. A great deal of play had been made unfairly and unnecessarily, as he thought, with regard to this concession. According to the Bill, as it now lay on the Table of the House, nobody doubted as to what schools the local authorities would adopt. These schools were to be open to the inspection of anybody, and there was no obligation on the local education authority to acquire any voluntary school whatever, or to refuse it. The right hon. Member for Oxford University moved an Amendment which made it obligatory on every local authority to acquire every voluntary school that was assumed to be a fit and proper school to be taken over. His reply to that was that it was impossible to impose on any local authority an obligation to take over every voluntary school; but he maintained that if the private owners or trustees, whatever their trust might be, would be willing to incur a corresponding obligation to hand over every one of their schools irrespective of their trust, and if the local authority were prepared to take them, he was willing, having regard to the saving of time, trouble, and expense, to consider that proposal. He certainly received no assurance from right hon. Gentlemen opposite as to their willingness to do anything of the kind, though he did receive from the hon. Member for Waterford a modified consent to that obligation, which was to be dependant on the terms of Clause 4 being satisfactory to his Party. He did not see, therefore, in what sense it could be truthfully or honestly said that this proposal of his had complicated in any way the consideration of the questions with which it dealt. If there could be an agreement arrived at between the two

1485
sides as to a corresponding obligation, Clause 8 might be considerably modified, but until he received some assurance from right hon. Gentlemen opposite that they were willing to acquiesce in that proposal he really did not think that they were treating him quite fairly in this matter.
MR. WYNDHAMthought that the right hon. Gentleman had made an unjustifiable accusation against the Opposition. They could not be expected to pronounce an opinion upon this question until they knew the form which Clause 4 as well as Clause 3 was to assume. Clause 3 attacked their interests far more severely than Clause 4 attacked the interests of the Party led by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford. They reserved their judgment until Clauses 3 and 4 were settled, and they could not judge till they saw it whether the concession which was to be made was any concession at all. In view of the attitude of the Government in withholding what their concession was to be there was good ground for asking for ample time for the consideration of the Amendment.
MAJOR SEELYdid not think the right hon. Gentleman's statement tallied with what he had said in a previous debate. [An HON. MEMBER: "There was a promise."] Perhaps "promise" was the better word. He understood that the attitude of the Opposition was not going to determine what his right hon. friend was going to do, but he understood him as making a promise that the right of appeal should be bilateral. That was a definite undertaking, and he thought the Government should make it plain exactly how the matter stood.
MR. LUPTONsaid his recollection was that his right hon. friend the President of the Board of
Education made a suggestion, and a suggestion only, which was not accepted by anybody.
MR. DILLONsaid he had no doubt as to what had happened. The right hon. Gentleman had made an offer to bring in a modifying Amendment, and after considerable discussion he gave an undertaking to put the Government Amendment on the paper at a subsequent stage. The ultimate fate of that Amendment would depend upon the reception which it met with from the Opposition.
MR. WALTER LONGwho was received with cries of "Agreed," said that it was all very well for hon. Members to cry out "Agreed," but the right hon. Gentleman had made a statement which differed from one he had previously made.
MR. BIRRELLsaid he had already stated at Question time that as soon as Clause 4 had been disposed of he would put on the Paper the bilateral obligation which he contemplated.
*SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the right hon. Gentleman, when pressed in the previous debate, said he would put this obligation on the Paper, but that he could not fix the date when that should be done. The right hon. Gentleman, in answer to a Question to-day had said that his clause must depend on the shape that Clause 3, Clause 4, and Clause 6 might ultimately assume. It was on those grounds that earlier in the day be had ventured to ask the right hon. Gentleman for a little longer time for the consideration of the clause which would ultimately determine what form this clause would take.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 354 Noes, 158. (Division List No 129.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Barnard, E. B.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Astbury, John Meir

Barnes, G. N.

Agnew, George William

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Beale, W. P.

Alden, Percy

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Beauchamp, E.

Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbourne

Armitage, R.

Barker, John

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Beck, A. Cecil

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Bellairs, Carlyon

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

King, Alfred John (Knutsford

Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

Erskine, David C.

Kitson, Sir James

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Essex, R. W.

Laidlaw, Robert

Berridge, T. H. D.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

Bertram, Julius

Everett, R. Lacey

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Fenwick, Charles

Lambert, George

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Ferens, T. R.

Lamont, Norman

Billson, Alfred

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Findlay, Alexander

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lehmann, R. C.

Brace, William

Fullerton, Hugh

Lever, A. Levy,(Essex Harwich

Bramsdon, T. A.

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Branch, James

Gill, A. H.

Levy, Maurice

Brigg, John

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Lewis, John Herbert

Bright, J. A.

Glendinning, R. G.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Glover, Thomas

Lough, Thomas

Brodie, H. C.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lupton, Arnold

Brooke, Stopford

Grant, Corrie

Lyell, Charles Henry

Brunner, J.F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Lynch, H. B.

Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Grove, Archibald

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Gulland, John W.

Maclean, Donald

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Macpherson, J, T.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Hall, Frederick

M'Arthur, William

Byles, William Pollard

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

M'Callum, John M.

Cairns, Thomas

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

M'Crae, George

Caldwell, James

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

M'Micking, Major G.

Cawley, Frederick

Hart-Davies, T.

Maddison, Frederick

Chance, Frederick William

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Mallet, Charles E.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Harwood, George

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Haworth, Arthur A.

Marnham, F. J.

Cleland, J. W.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Clough, W.

Hedges, A. Paget

Massie, J.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Helme, Norval Watson

Masterman, C. F. G.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Menzies, Walter

Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W.

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Cooper, G. J.

Henry, Charles S.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Corbett, C.H(Sussex. E. Grints'd

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Mond, A.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Montagu, E. S.

Cory, Clifford John

Higham, John Sharp

Montgomery, H. H.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Cowan, W. H.

Hodge, John

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Cremer, William Randal

Holden,; E. Hopkinson

Morrell, Philip

Crombie, John William

Holland, Sir William Henry

Morse, L. L.

Crooks, William

Hooper, A. G.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Crosfield, A. H.

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Murray, James

Crossley, William J.

Horniman, Emslie John

Myer, Horatio

Dalziel, James Henry

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Napier, T. B.

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

Howard, Hon Geoffrey

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Hudson, Walter

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Hyde, Clarendon

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norman, Henry

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Jackson, R. S.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Nuttall, Harry

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Johnson, W (Nuneaton)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Dobson, Thomas W.

Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

Paul, Herbert

Duckworth, James

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Jowett, F. W.

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Dunne, A. Edward (Camborne)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Kekewich, Sir George

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Kelley, George D.

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

1488

1489

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Seaverns, J. H.

Walters, John Tudor

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Seddon, J.

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Seely, Major J. B.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Pollard, Dr.

Shackleton, David James

Ward, John(Stoke upon Trent)

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Ward, W. Dudley(Southampt'n

Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

Wardle, George J.

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Wason, John. Cathcart(Orkney

Radford, G. H.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Waterlow, D. S.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Watt, H. Anderson

Raphael, Herbert H.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Soaraes, Arthur Wellesley

Weir, James Galloway

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Soares, Ernest J.

Whitbread, Howard

Rees, J. D.

Stanger, H. Y.

White, George (Norfolk)

Rendall, Athelstan

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Renton, Major Leslie

Steadman, W. C.

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Whitehead, Rowland

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Richardson, A.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Rickett, J. Compton

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wiles, Thomas

Ridsdale, E. A.

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Wilkie, Alexander

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Summerbell, T.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Sutherland, J. E.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Williams, L (Garmarthen

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.)

Robinson, S.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Winfrey, R.

Rose, Charles Day

Thomasson, Franklin

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid.

Rowlands, J.

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Runciman, Walter

Tomkinson, James

Woodhouse, Sir J.T.(Huddersf'd

Russell, T. W.

Toulmin, George

Yoxall, James Henry

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Verney, F. W.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Villiers, Ernest Amherst

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Vivian, Henry

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Scott, A.H.(AshtonunderLyne)

Wallace, Robert

NOES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

Cave, George

Fardell, Sir T. George

Ambrose, Robert

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Fell, Arthur

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Ffrench, Peter

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Field, William

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O.

Clancy, John Joseph

Flynn, James Christopher

Ashley, W. W.

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Forster, Henry William

Balcarres, Lord

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J(City Lond.)

Cogan, Denis J.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Balfour, Capt, C. B. (Hornsey)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Ginnell, L.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Haddock, George R.

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Courthope, G. Loyd

Halpin, J.

Baring, Hon. Guy(Winchester)

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S)

Hambro, Charles Eric

Barry, E. (Cork. S

Craig, Captain Jas. (Down, E.

Hammond, John

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh H.

Craik, Sir Henry

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Cross, Alexander

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Dalrymple, Viscount

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Boland, John

Delany, William

Hayden, John Patrick

Bowles, G. Stewart

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Hazleton, Richard

Boyle, Sir Edward

Dillon, John

Helmsley, Viscount

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D.

Hervey, FW.F.(Bury SEdm'ds.)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Dolan, Chas. Joseph

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Bull, Sir William James

Donelan, Captain A.

Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

Hogan, Michael

Burke, E. Haviland-

Du Cros, Harvey

Houston, Robert Paterson

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Duncan, Robert(Lanark Govan

Joyce, Michael

Carlile, E. Hildred

Faber, George Denison (York)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Castlereagh, Viscount

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W

1490

1491

Keswick, William

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

Nield, Herbert

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Nolan, Joseph

Sheehan. Daniel Daniel

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

O'Brien, K. (Tipperarry Mid.)

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool. Walton)

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants Fareham

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt-Col. A.R.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Starkey, John R.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Sullivan, Donal

Lowe, Sir Francis William

O'Doherty, Philip

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

Lundon, W.

O'Dowd, John

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

Lyttellton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

O'Hare, Patrick

Thornton, Percy M.

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Turnour, Viscount

M'Calmont, Colonel James

O'Malley, William

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

O'Mara, James

Walker, Col. W. H.(Lancashire)

M'Killop, W.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Magnus, Sir Philip

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Percy, Earl

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Meagher, Michael

Power, Patrick Joseph

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Meehan, Patrick A.

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Redmond, William (Clare)

Younger, George

Mooney, J. J.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Morpeth, Viscount

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Murphy, John

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

MR. LOUGHsaid that early in the afternoon the hon. Member for the Barnard Castle Division appealed to the Government to secure some time for the discussion of Clause 35. The Government had considered the matter and were prepared to do what the hon. Member asked He therefore moved to leave out all the words after "that" in subhead (f) in order to insert, "Clauses 25 to 34 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day, and that Clauses 35 and 36 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day." This did not increase the number of allotted days.
Amendment proposed—
"In line 19, to leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of line 22, and insert the words 'Clauses 25 to 34 lie proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day, that Clauses 35 and 36 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day.' "—(Mr. Lough.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. LAURENCE HARDYthought they might very well ask for some explanation of the Amendment which had been suddenly sprung upon them in lieu of the Amendment in his name, and in which they asked for further
1492
time for this clause. They now found that Clauses 25 to 34, which dealt with a vast number of extremely difficult subjects, were now relegated to one allotted day. Some further information was certainly called for as to why the Government should suddenly have come to this conclusion. He suggested that pressure had been put upon the Government from their own side, and that some of the clauses were to be dropped. He did not think that this was a satisfactory way of settling the difficulty.
MR. LANE-FOXprotested against a clause which contained matters of extreme importance to rural parishes, such as delegation of powers, the 2d. rate, and capital expenditure, being given such a small amount of time for discussion.
DR. MACNAMARAsupported the proposition of the Government, and said he would not press for the throe days he asked for earlier. In the interests of individual Members who were so often forgotten in these debates he should support this proposal.
*MR. BRIDGEMANpointed out that the clauses included in Part III. were the only clauses in the Bill which could be called educational, and urged that it was impossible adequately to discuss the several important questions which they raised in he time proposed. A simple way out of

1493
the difficulty was to give them another week to discuss the whole matter. He did not know why this sudden alteration had been sprung upon them, or why it had been found necessary to give so much time to Clauses 35 and 36, which were not even mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech when he introduced the Bill. The only conclusion he could come to was that he intended to graft on to this clause the conclusion of the Select Committee upon the provision of meals for children.
MR. LOUGH: That proposal is not in the clause.
*MR. BRIDGEMANasked if the Secretary to the Board of Education was prepared to say that the words 'power to make such arrangements as may be sanctioned by the Board of Education for attending to the health and physical condition of the children "could not be interpreted as covering the whole question as to whether the children were underfed or not?
MR. LOUGH: It is not intended to cover that.
*MR. BRIDGEMANsaid that if that was not the reason, he would like to know why this division in the time had been made. The only other reason he could see for the proposal was that the Government intended to drop one or more of the previous clauses. The Radical Association in his constituency had passed a resolution welcoming Clause 26, but declaring that the management of public elementary schools, where delegated, should be exercised by a body directly elected for that purpose with powers of administration within adequate areas. [Cheers.] From the cheers with which that resolution was greeted it was obvious that it expressed the opinion of a considerable body of hon. Members on the subject. If that was so, it was perfectly absurd to imagine that it could be discussed in the tenth part of a day. Another important point was that Clause 26 was the only one on which the question of London could be raised at all in connection with the Bill. An enormous number of people were dissatisfied with the way in which the Education Act was being administered by the London County Council, and some hon. Members would
1494
like to see an alteration introduced. Clause 28, which extended the time for the repayment of loans from thirty to sixty years, proposed what was really a revolution in regard to the borrowing powers of educational authorities, and it ought not to be allowed to pass without careful consideration. It devolved the obligation for repayment upon another generation. Clause 29, dealing with the 2d. rate for secondary education, was most important, and more time ought to be allowed for its discussion. There were other matters dealt with in Part III. of the Bill which could not be properly discussed in two days, amongst these being the question of the apportionment of capital expenditure, the conditions imposed upon students entering training colleges, and the arrangements as to vacation schools and the health of school children. In regard to vacation schools they had an entirely new experiment. He believed that the experiment so far had been successful; but it had been voluntary and had not received the approval of the Board of Education in any definite way. Again, in regard to the health of the children attending the schools, it was admitted that the clause dealing with that question involved very complicated problems. Lastly, there was the question of the teachers' register. The teachers' register was started in 1899–1900. The question was one which affected teachers very considerably. Many of them had gone to very great inconvenience and expense to qualify themselves to get on to this register, and it was not right that injustice should be done to them by abolishing it. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Divide."] It was perfectly clear that a majority of hon. Members opposite did not wish to have a discussion or a thorough understanding of the question, and that was the reason why they were in such a desperate hurry for their holiday. He asked the right hon. Gentleman if he thought seriously that he could pass these ten important clauses satisfactorily in one day, and whether he intended to bring the question of the feeding of children under Clause 35.
*MR. HICKS BEACHsaid that as the representative of an agricultural constituency he protested against the hollowness of the concession offered by the Government. Clauses 35 and 36 were no doubt of great importance and

1495
worthy of a full day's discussion. For such questions as the feeding of children, and the providing of means of recreation in the school-houses in their holidays— even to the extent of turning the schoolroom into a swimming bath or gymnasium — might very well be raised in those clauses. But surely Clauses 25 to 34 were collectively of much greater importance and worthy of more than one day's discussion. He believed that there were many clauses in the Bill which were very unpopular, but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that Clause 29, which removed the 2d. limit of rate for secondary education, was most unpopular in the country districts. The Government had announced that they had fixed August 4th for adjourning for the holidays, though they had frequently in the past twitted the late Government with an unnatural desire to adjourn on August 11th, which was a day of national importance in all constituencies which contained tracts of moorland.
*MR. SPEAKERsaid that if the hon. Member wanted to get away either on August 4th or 11th he had better keep to the point under discussion.
MR. BIRRELLsaid that as regarded the feeding of children, there was, as the House knew, a Bill dealing with that subject which had been referred to a very laborious and painstaking Committee. The Government gave an assurance at the time of the reference that time would be given for the consideration of the measure, and he hoped the promised opportunity would be found during the autumn session. Therefore it was quite unnecessary to consider that part of the case, as during the autumn they would perhaps have the report of that Committee before the House. He would be sorry if the question of devolution under Clause 26 were not properly discussed. It was a complicated subject, but he still hoped that they would arrive at some arrangement under which power should be given to the county councils to accept, proposals which would enable devolution to be carried out. He would be sorry if this principle of devolution did not receive fair consideration at the hands of the House when it came to be dealt with in Committee, but unless some sort of agreement or common ground was arranged between them it might be im-
1496
possible fairly to consider it. The county councils might be willing, and he was informed they were willing, to make schemes of their own to devolve upon local bodies their powers.
MR. A. J. BALFOURwanted to know what sort of agreement or arrangement the right hon. Gentleman wanted. He himself wished to press upon the Administration the advisability of withdrawing some of the miscellaneous clauses between 25 and 34, although of course he did not include in that recommendation Clause 26, which dealt with delegation. He earnestly pressed the Government not to bring their proposals and themselves into discredit by asking the House to do more than could possibly be done in the time, and he suggested the Government might still further relieve the Bill of some unnecessary clauses. He did not ask them to make any proposals now, but he did ask them to consider the matter. He thought the time given for the discussion was ludicrous, but the remedy for that was not, in his opinion, to move an Amendment to give further time, but to suggest that the Government might still further relieve the Bill by excising some unnecessary clauses.
MR. ASQUITHsaid that the suggestion was a reasonable one, and between now and the time when this portion of the Bill was reached the Government would consider how far it was possible to adopt it.
Question put, and negatived.
Proposed words inserted.
MR. BRIDGEMANsaid the Amendment he now moved was to leave out Sub-section (g) relating to Welsh education. There had already been some discussion upon this point and he did not propose to take up time in going over arguments which had already been addressed to the House. He, however, ventured to think that a new departure such as was proposed by the portion of the Bill here referred to was a question that might very well be dropped or else a much longer time must be allowed for its discussion. He would rather have seen it dropped than parts of Clause 3 which were much more important. He moved the Amendment

1497
because he thought it was absolutely impossible to discuss the whole of this question in one day.
MR. F. E. SMITHseconded the Amendment. He ventured to urge most strongly upon the generosity of hon. Gentlemen opposite a condition which they would admit could not be over looked. It was that, although Welsh representatives did not allude to it, there was in Wales a very strong body of opinion entirely unrepresented in this House which possessed the strongest moral claim to have its views considered in these debates so far as a reasonable allowance of time would enable those views to be considered. That body of opinion was avowedly hostile to the portion of the Bill which dealt with Wales, and he asked the right hon. Gentleman responsible for the measure whether he seriously suggested that the propriety of making a new arrange m en t of this kind could be adequately considered in a single day.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out lines 23 and 24."—(Mr. Bridgeman.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'That' stand part of the Question."
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOAED OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,)said he certainly thought one day would be quite enough to discuss this point. The question had been discussed very fully in a few hours at a conference in Wales, and it was also discussed very fully upon the Second Reading of the Bill. He saw no special difficulty in the matter. He had looked at the Amendments on the Paper, but they did not raise any serious points. There were two or three Amendments of importance, but they could all be adequately discussed in the course of a day's debate. He believed ho could satisfy the hon. Gentleman that there was no real ground for apprehension with regard to the powers of the proposed council, and the Government were fully prepared to meet all reasonable suggestions.
*SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he must disabuse the House of the impression which had been made—unintentionally, no doubt—by the right hon. Gentleman
1498
that the proposals of the late Government for giving to the Welsh council control of their primary education in any way resembled the proposals now before the House. The late Government assented to a proposal for a joint Committee under Section 17 of the Act of 1902, upon which powers would be conferred under the control and superintendence of the Board of Education, and for which the Parliamentary representative of the Board could answer in this House. The present Government's proposal made the Welsh Council independent of the Board of Education, and left no one responsible to Parliament for its action. Nobody could be called to account for any action of the council taken under Part IV., and they had to boar in mind that what this council would have to administer was not the Act of 1902 but the Bill now before them, which, if passed in its present form, would enable the local authority to efface religious teaching from all the elementary schools in its area. The House, or at any rate a considerable portion of it, would therefore agree with him in saying that it was a very large power to confer on any local authority for whom no one in this House was responsible. He had no doubt that from the point of view of the President of the Board of Trade the matter was a simple one. They were to confer upon a council powers by Order in Council, and give it all the money which was due for education within its area, to do what it would with, and no one was to be called to account. It was plain and simple enough on paper, but the simplicity amounted to crudity and the crudity involved peril, and one day was not adequate for discussing the proposal in all its bearings.
LORD R. CECILcould not agree with the President of the Board of Trade that this subject had been discussed adequately on the Second Reading. On the contrary, the matter was scarcely mentioned on that occasion. Owing to the rules of the House they were not allowed to discuss the merits of the proposal, but only whether it was desirable that it should form part of the Bill or not. Part IV. was contained in one clause. That was merely a matter of drafting, and as a matter of substance it might just as well have been contained in nine clauses. If this Part had been brought in as a

1499
separate Bill, no doubt the nine subsections would have appeared as separate clauses, and certainly no one would have suggested that the discussion should have lasted only one day. Sub-section 4, Sub-head (a), proposed to confer on the council the powers and duties of the Board of Education. That was a very serious power indeed to confer upon the council in Wales. Even in England, where the Board of Education exercised these powers, they were subject to a very large number of checks, and ultimately in each case to the control of Parliament. By another sub-section power was given by Order in Council to authorise the council in Wales to raise any money required by contributions. These were very wide powers, and certainly the proposal ought not to be passed sub silentio. Part II. gave some indication of the kind of powers that the proposal would confer upon the council for Wales.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid they had had the powers referred to by the hon. Member for years in Wales, and Part II. did not affect them.
LORD R. CECILsaid he thought the right hon. Gentleman somewhat exaggerated the point when he said that all these powers had already been conferred upon the authority for intermediate education in Wales. The powers under Part II. were very wide, but he thought it was a proposal of an extremely novel character to set up in Wales a council over which Parliament would have no control.
MR. BIRRELLsaid the object of this proposal was to secure the control of Parliament over the allocation of the money. Having regard to the position which Wales occupied, there could be very little hesitation in the mind of anybody who knew the zeal and the passion of the Welsh people for education in admitting that they were perfectly well able to look after elementary as well as intermediate education if this council were set up by the common consent of the Welsh people. That was an important piece of devolution, which he commended to all parts of the House. Looking at the matter from the point of view of Whitehall, he was bound to inquire what their position would be in regard to the £800,000 allocated to be
1500
spent upon Welsh education, and he refused to be responsible for the expenditure of that money unless he, with the House and the Treasury, had some control over it Any Amendment to secure that end would receive no opposition from the Government. If that point could be got over and proper security given to the House as to control, and provided Parliament was given opportunities of informing itself as to how the money was being expended in order that questions might be answered in the House, that seemed to him to meet the whole necessities of the case. He did not see how they could refuse to Wales the complete control of elementary education, provided she was willing to undertake it and was equal to the task, just in the same way as the late Government conferred upon Wales complete control of intermediate education.
MR. WALTER LONGsaid he was anxious to know the exact position of the Government in regard to the Welsh devolution scheme. He understood the President of the Board of Education to say that an Amendment would be introduced to secure to the Board of Education the right of obtaining information to enable the Government to answer Questions in Parliament. That was quite a different point from that which had been raised, which was whether there was still to reside in the Board of Education any power not merely to obtain information but to control the expenditure. He agreed that the position in Wales was different from that in any other part of the country, but the Government could not on that account ask them to consider such a proposal purely from the point of view of Wales. This was a proposition to give Wales absolute control of elementary education, and at the same time Welshmen were to lie allowed to come here and interfere with English and Scottish education. It was rather a strong order to ask them to discuss this scheme of devolution in a form which was far from definite and settled in the mind of the Government. The matter might very well form the subject of future legislation.
SIR HENRY CRAIKsaid he was desirous that full control should be secured by the Board of Education

1501
over the expenditure of this council in Wales. If that was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman he could not have taken a worse way to carry it out. The proposal they were now discussing interfered not merely with the Board of Education and the Departmental rules, but with a very much larger question, namely, the whole control of Parliament over its own grants. It was idle for the President of the Board of Education and the President of the Board of Trade to compare the two cases of the National Council proposed for Wales and the Council established for higher education in Wales. There was no analogy whatever between the two. The council which was to deal with national education in Wales would have a certain sum handed over from the Exchequer, but the council for higher education in Wales dealt with endowments and certain schools belonging to them. It had nothing to do with the Imperial grant. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has."] It did not decide how the Imperial grant should be distributed. [An HON. MEMBER: "It does."] The way in which the Imperial grant was to be distributed was decided by the rules laid down by the Board of Education, and not by the Secondary Education Board in Wales. The President of the Board of Education desired above all things to secure the authority of his Department and the authority of Parliament over the grants, but the proposal in the Bill was to hand over a large sum every year to this council to be distributed according to rules which it might itself lay down. The conditions under which the Imperial grants were distributed were submitted to Parliament for approval. The Minister who distributed the grants was responsible to Parliament, and if any school, or teacher, or any individual, felt aggrieved at the way the grants were distributed an appeal could be made to Parliament through a representative. This was absolutely abolished by Part IV. of the Bill. Could the right hon. Gentleman say that he had any means by which to secure the authority of Parliament over the disbursement of sums amounting to £1,000,000 a year? If they were to have Home Rule in matters of education in Wales, and the independent distribution of Imperial grants, why not for other parts of the country? If the Chief Secretary for Ireland were here he would
1502
agree with him in regretting that the Board of Education in Ireland acted independently of him. The right hon. Gentleman could only accept their decisions. Did the House wish the same thing for Wales and Scotland? To pass such a measure for Scotland would be a retrograde movement which would be regretted by all who had the interests of education in that country at heart. In view of the large interests involved they would do well to take more than a single day to discuss the proposal.
LORD BALCARRESsaid he considered one day wholly insufficient for the discussion of this question. The President of the Board of Education had given assurances that certain matters would be put right, but as they were not put right in the Bill these assurances did not satisfy him or his friends. The President of the Board of Trade had practically told the country that this matter was outside the sphere of controversy in Wales, but having made himself acquainted with the facts, he could state that there was a very powerful section bitterly hostile to Clause 37 of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman knew that he had the whole of the Welsh Party on his side, but it should be remembered that two-fifths of the votes cast at the election, representing a substantial body of opinion, were opposed to Clause 37. Two-fifths of the votes had been cast against the President of the Board of Trade. There was in the clause as introduced no provision for the responsibility of Parliament. He defied anyone to say that it could be adequately discussed in five hours. The clause was one of the most controversial parts of the Bill. People in Wales who were deeply interested in education assured him that they viewed with the greatest apprehension the principles laid down under Clause 37. He might refer in passing to the extraordinary nature of the speech directed against voluntary schools by the hon. and learned Member for Mid. Glamorganshire, and he contended that one day was wholly inadequate to discuss so important a proposal.
Mr. ASQUITHrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 328; Noes, 81. (Division List, No. 130.)

AYES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

Collins, Sir W. J. (S. PancrasW.

Henry, Charles S.

Abraham, William (Rhondda

Cooper, G. J.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S

Acland, Francis Dyke

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E Grinst'd

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Adkins, W. Ryland

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Higham, John Sharp

Agnew, George William

Cory, Clifford John

Hobart, Sir Robert

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hodge, John

Alden, Percy

Cowan, W. H.

Hogan, Michael

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

Cremer, William Randal

Hooper, A. G.

Armitage, R.

Crombie, John William

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset N

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Crossley, William J.

Horniman, Emslie John

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbt. Henry

Davies, D. (Montgomery Co.)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Astbury, John Meir

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Hyde, Clarendon

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight;

Dewar, John A (Inverness-sh.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Barker, John

Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras N

Jones, David Brynmor(Swans'a

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Barnard, E. B.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Barnes, G. N.

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Joyce, Michael

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Duckworth, James

Kearley, Hudson E.

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

Kelley, George D.

Beale, W. P.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Beauchamp, E.

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Beaumont, H. (Eastbourne)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Kitson, Sir James

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Beck, A. Cecil

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Erskine, David C.

Lambert, George

Benn, John W. (Devonport)

Essex, R. W.

Lamont, Norman

Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S. Geo.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Berridge, T. H. D.

Everett, R. Lacey

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Bertram, Julius

Fenwick, Charles

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St.Pancras,E.)

Billson, Alfred

Ferens, T. R.

Lehmann, R. C.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Field, William

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Boland, John

Flynn, James Christopher

Levy, Maurice

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lewis, John Herbert

Brace, William

Fullerton, Hugh

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Bramsdon, T. A.

Gill, A. H.

Lough, Thomas

Branch, James

Ginnell, L.

Lundon, W.

Bright, J A.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Brodie, H. C.

Glendinning, R. G.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Brooke, Stopford

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh

Grant, Corrie

Maclean, Donald

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Macpherson, J. T.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Grove, Archibald

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Gulland, John W.

M'Arthur, William

Burke, E. Haviland-

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B

M'Callum, John M.

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Hall, Frederick

M'Crae, George

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Halpin, J.

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Hammond, John

M'Kenna, Reginald

Byles, William Pollard

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

M'Killop, W.

Cairns, Thomas

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Caldwell, James

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

M'Micking, Major G.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Hart-Davies, T.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Cawley, Frederick

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Marks G. Croydon(Launceston

Chance, Frederick William

Haslam James (Derbyshire)

Marnham, F. J.

Channing, Francis Allston

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Haworth, Arthur A.

Massie, J

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Hayden, John Patrick

Meagher, Michael

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Meehan, Patrick A.

Clancy, John Joseph

Hazleton, Richard

Menzies, Walter

Clark, C. Goddard

Hedges, A. Paget

Micklem, Nathaniel

Cleland, J. W.

Helme, Norval Watson

Cogan, Denis J.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Mond, A.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.

Montgomery, H. H.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Morrell, Philip

Richardson, A.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Morse, L. L.

Rickett, J. Compton

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Ridsdale, E. A.

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.

Murray, James

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Napier, T B.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Thomasson, Franklin

Nicholson, Charles N (Doncast'r

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E

Nolan, Joseph

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Tomkinson, James

Norman, Henry

Robinson, S.

Toulmin, George

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Nuttall, Harry

Roe, Sir Thomas

Verney, F. W.

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Vivian, Henry

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Rose, Charles Day

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Rowlands, J.

Walters, John Tudor

O'Doherty, Philip

Russell, T. W.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Samuel, HerbertL. (Cleveland)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

O'Dowd, John

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney

O'Hare, Patrick

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Waterlow, D. S.

O'Malley, William

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Watt, H. Anderson

O'Mara, James

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Seaverns, J. H.

Weir, James Galloway

Parker, James (Halifax)

Seddon, J.

Whitbread, Howard

Paul, Herbert

Seely, Major J. B.

White, George (Norfolk)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Shackleton, David James

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Whitehead, Rowland

Pliilipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Pollard, Dr.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wiles, Thomas

Power, Patrick Joseph

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wilkie, Alexander

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh. Central

Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Williams, Osmond, (Merioneth)

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

Soares, Ernest J.

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

Radford, G. H.

Stanger, H. Y.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Rainy, A. Rolland

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Winfrey, R.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Woodhouse, Sir J.T.(Huddersf'd

Redmond, William (Clare

Sullivan, Donal

Rees, J. D.

Summerbell, T.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Rendall, Athelstan

Sutherland, J. E.

Renton, Major Leslie

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Arnold-Forster Rt. Hn Hugh O.

Courthope, G. Lloyd

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Balcarres, Lord

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Craik, Sir Henry

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Dalrymple, Viscount

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Du Cros, Harvey

Morpeth, Viscount

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Faber, George Denison (York)

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Fell, Arthur

Nield, Herbert

Boyle, Sir Edward

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Forster, Henry William

Percy, Earl

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Bull, Sir William James

Hambro, Charles Eric

Remnant, James Farquharson

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Eeclesall)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Cave, George

Helmsley, Viscount

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS Edm'ds

Smith, F. E.(Liverpool, Walton

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Cecil, Lord R,(Marylebone, E.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Thornton, Percy M.

1506

1507

Turnour, Viscount

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Walker, Col. W.H.(Lancashire)

Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Younger, George

Question put accordingly, "That the word 'That' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes, 329; Noes, 80. (Division List no.131.)

AYES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

Cleland, J. W.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cogan, Denis J.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hayden, John Parick

Agnew, George William

Collins, Sir W. J. (S. Pancras W.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hazleton, Richard

Alden, Percy

Cooper, G. J.

Hedges, A. Paget

Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

Corbett, C H (Sussex, Egrinst'd)

Helme, Norval Watson

Armitage, R.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Cory, Clifford John

Henderson, JM(Aberdeen, W.)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Henry, Charles S.

Astbury, John Meir

Cowan, W. H.

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Cremer, William Randall

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Crombie, John William

Higham, John Sharp

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Crossley, William J.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Barker, John

Davies, David (Montgomery Co

Hodge, John

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Hogan, Michael

Barnard, E. B.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Hooper, A. G.

Barnes, G. N.

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway)

Hope, W Bateman(Somerset, N.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Horniman, Emslie John

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras N

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Beale, W. P.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hyde, Clarendon

Beauchamp, E.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbourne

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Beaumont, W.C.B(Hexham)

Duckworth, James

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Beck, A. Cecil

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

Bellairs, Carlyon

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Benn, John W. (Devonport)

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets S. Geo

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Joyce, Michael

Berridge, T. H. D.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Bertram, Julius

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Kelley, George D.

Billson, Alfred

Erskine, David C.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Essex, R. W.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Kitson, Sir James

Boland, John

Everett, R. Lacey

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E

Fenwick, Charles

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Brace, William

Ferens, T. R.

Lambert, George

Bramsdon, T. A.

Field, William

Lamont, Norman

Branch, James

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Bright, J. A.

Flynn, James Christopher

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Brodie, H. C.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E

Brooke, Stopford

Fullerton, Hugh

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Brunner, J. F. L (Lancs., Leigh)

Gill, A. H.

Lehmann, R. C.

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Ginnell, L.

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Glendinning, R. G.

Levy, Maurice

Burke, E. Haviland-

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lewis, John Herbert

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Grant, Corrie

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Burt Rt. Hon. Thomas

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Lough, Thomas

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Grove, Archibald

Lundon, W.

Byles, William Pollard

Gulland, John W.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Cairns, Thomas

Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Caldwell, James

Hall, Frederick

Macdonald, J M(Falkirk B'ghs.)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Halpin, J.

Maclean, Donald

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Hammond, John

Macpherson, J. T.

Cawley, Frederick

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E

Chance, Frederick William

Hardie, J Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

M'Arthur, William

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

M'Callum, John M.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

M'Crae, George

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hart-Davies, T.

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Clancy, John Joseph

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

M'Kenna, Reginald

M'Killop, W.

Priestley, W.E. B. (Bradford E

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Radford, G. H.

Sullivan, Donal

M'Micking, Major G.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Summerbell, T.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Sutherland, J. E.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Marnham, F. J.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisb'ry

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Massie, J.

Rees, J. D.

Thomas, Aber (Carmarthen, E.

Meagher, Michael

Rendall, Athelstan

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Meehan, Patrick A.

Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Menzies, Walter

Richard, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Thomasson, Franklin

Micklem, Nathaniel

Richardson, A.

Thompson, J W H (Somerset, E.

Mond, A.

Rickett, J. Compton

Tomkinson, James

Montgomery, H. H.

Ridsdale, E.

Toulmin, George

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Verney, F. W.

Morrell, Philip

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Vivian, Henry

Morse, L. L.

Robertson Sir G Scott(Bradf'rd)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Robinson, S.

Walters, John Tudor

Murphy, John

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Murray, James

Roe, Sir Thomas

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Napier, T. B.

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

Rose, Charles Day

Waterlow, D. S.

Nolan, Joseph

Rowlands, J.

Watt, H. Anderson

Norman, Henry

Russell, T. W.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Weir, James Galloway

Nuttall, Harry

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Whitbread, Howard

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

White, George (Norfolk)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

O'Doherty, Philip

Seaverns, J. H.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Seddon, J.

Whitehead, Rowland

O'Dowd, John

Seely, Major J. B.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

O'Hare, Patrick

Shackleton, David James

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

O'Malley, William

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Wiles, Thomas

O'Mara, James

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

Wilkie, Alexander

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Paul, Herbert

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Williams, L. (Carmarthen)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wills, Arthur Walters

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye

Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'tha'pton)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Winfrey, R.

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Soares, Ernest J.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Pirie, Duncan V.

Stanger, H. Y.

Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd

Pollard, Dr.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Price, C.E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

Cave, George

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Helmsley, Viscount

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S Edm'ds

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Balcarres, Lord

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Craik, Sir Henry

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin. S.

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh H.

Dalrymple, Viscount

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Du Cros, Harvey

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Boyle, Sir Edward

Faber, George Denison (York)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Fell, Arthur

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Bull, Sir William James

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Morpeth, Viscount

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Forster, Henry William

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Gibbs, G. N. (Bristol, West)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hambro, Charles Eric

Nield, Herbert

1510

1511

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington

Smith, F E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Percy, Earl

Starkey, John R.

Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Thompson, W. Mitchell (Lanark

Wyndham, Rt. Hn George

Remnant, James Farquharson

Thornton, Percy M.

Younger, George

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Turnour, Viscount

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Valentia, Viscount

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Claude Hay and Mr. Evelyn Cecil.

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancash.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

ASQUITHclaimed "That the main question, as amended, be now put."
*MR. SPEAKERsaid that there was an Amendment standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition which he thought ought to be considered. If the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to move it at once he would withhold his consent from the Motion.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR MR. A. J. BALFOUR moved to leave out the words providing that if a Minister of the Crown moved to leave out Part II. or any clause of the Bill the question should be put without debate. The first part of the paragraph—the last sentence of which he was proposing to omit—gave the Minister power to more that any portion of the Bill be dropped. That was a perfectly proper proposal, but the Government had gone much further and said that the proposal to drop any part of the Bill not only might be made but must be accepted or rejected by the House without amendment or debate. It was the first time they had endeavoured to deal with this question, and he thought it would be a most evil omen that the House should adopt a scheme which would make it appear that it was in the opinion of the House reasonable that the promoters of the Bill should have this power. They had only got to consider what would happen if the promoters of the Bill, for example, were to exercise the power in respect to Clause 4. There was a large number of hon. Members from Ireland, for instance, who were anxious to have the Bill passed if they could get such provisions in Clause 4 as they desired. It would be perfectly possible for the Government to drop Clause 4 without giving any reason, without listening to any reason, and without permitting any discussion. That power ought not to be granted.
He advocated the proposal in the first part of the paragraph as an alteration in the Standing Order in the interest of the general business of the House. He hoped in the interests of future legislation and of this Bill the right hon. Gentleman would accede to his proposal. So far as he know, the Government did not propose to drop any part of the Bill which he would wish to be retained, but he was speaking rather beyond the immediate intentions of the Government.
Amendment proposed—
"In line 38, to leave out from the word 'Committee,' to the end of the paragraph."— (Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. ASQUITHsaid the object of putting in this sentence was to save time. He would take as an example a Motion that was tolerably certain to be made to leave out Part 2 of the Bill. On that Motion the whole of the day or the greater part of the day might be taken up subject only to the closure. They wanted to save the time of the House to discuss the living clauses of the Bill which the Government intended to press, and on the part of the Government he wished to give the assurance that no Motion would be made to leave out any clause or any part of this Bill which was not in the nature of something separable from the rest of the Bill; in other words, no Motion to drop any part of the Bill which was dependent on the general scheme of the measure would be submitted.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 272; Noes, 122. (Division List No. 132.)

AYES.

Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

Adkins, W. Ryland

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Acland, Francis Dyke

Agnew, George William

Alden, Percy

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

Essex, R. W.

M'Crae, George

Armitage R.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

M'Kenna, Reginald

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford. W.)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

Fenwick, Charles

M'Micking, Major G.

Astbury, John Meir

Ferens, T. R.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Fullerton, Hugh

Marnham, F. J.

Barker, John

Gill, A. H.

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbort J.

Massic, J.

Barnard, E. B.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Menzies, Walter

Barnes, G. N.

Grant, Corrie

Micklen, Nathaniel

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Mond, A.

Beale, W. P.

Grove, Archibald

Montgomery, H. H.

Beauchamp, E.

Gulland, John W.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Beaumont, H. (Eastbourne)

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Morrell, Philip

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Hall, Frederick

Morse, L. L.

Beck, A, Cecil

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Bellairs, Carlyon

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

Murray, James

Benn, John Williams(Devonp't

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Napier, T. B.

Benn, W. (T'wrHamlets, S. Geo.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r

Berridge, T. H. D.

Hart-Davies, T.

Norman, Henry

Bertram, Julius

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Billson, Alfred

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Nuttall, Harry

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Black, Arthur W(Bedfordshire)

Haworth, Arthur A.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E

Hazel, Dr A. E.

Paul, Herbert

Brace, William

Hedges, A. Paget

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Bramsdon, T. A.

Helme, Norval Watson

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Branch, James

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye

Bright, J. A.

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Brodie, H. C.

Henry, Charles S.

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Brooke, Stopford

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs., Leigh)

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Pollard, Dr.

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

Higham, John Sharp

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Hobart, Sir Robert

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Burayeat, J. D. W.

Hodge, John

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hooper, A. G.

Radford, G. H.

Byles, William Pollard

Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset N

Rainy, A. Rolland,

Cairns, Thomas

Horniman, Emslie John

Raphael, Herbert H.

Caldwell, James

Howard, Hn. Geoffrey

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hyde, Clarendon

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Rees, J. D.

Cawley, Frederick

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Rendall, Athelstan

Channing, Francis Allston

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Renton, Major Leslie

Cheetham, John Frederick

Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Richardson, A.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rickett, J. Compton

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Kelley, George D.

Ridsdale, E. A.

Cooper, G. J.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Corbett, CH(Sussex, E Grinst'd)

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs,)

Cory, Clifford John

Lambert, George

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Lamont, Norman

Robinson, S.

Cowan, W. H.

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Cremer, William Randal

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Roe, Sir Thomas

Crombie, John William

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Crossley, William J.

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Rose, Charles Day

Davies, David (Montgomery Co

Lehmann, R. C.

Rowlands, J.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Russell, T. W.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N

Levy, Maurice

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel).

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lewis, John Herbert

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Duckworth, James

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde).

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

Lough, Thomas

Scott, A.H. (Ashton under Lyne)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Seaverns, J. H.

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Seddon, J.

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs.

Seely, Major J. B.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Maclean, Donald

Shackleton, David James

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Macpherson, J. T.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Erskine, David C.

M'Arthur, William

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

1514

1515

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

Whitehead, Rowland

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Thomasson, Franklin

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Tomkinson, James

Wiles, Thomas

Soares, Ernest J.

Toulmin, George

Wilkie, Alexander

Stanger, H. Y.

Verney, F. W.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Vivian, Henry

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthn

Strachey, Sir Edward

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

Summerbell, T.

Waterlow, D. S.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Sutherland, J. E.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Woodhouse, Sir J.T.(Huddersf'd

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Weir, James Galloway

Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

Whit bread, Howard

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

White, George (Norfolk)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

White, Luke (York. E.R.)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants. W.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Fell, Arthur

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Field, William

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

O'Doherty, Philip

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Dowd, John

Balcarres, Lord

Forster, Henry William

O'Hare, Patrick

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Malley, William

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Ginnell, L.

O'Mara, James

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Halpin, J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Hammond, John

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Hardy, Laurence(Kent. Ashford

Percy, Earl

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hayden, John Patrick

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Boland, John

Hazelton, Richard

Redmond, William (Clare)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Helmsley, Viscount

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Bull, Sir William James

Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hogan, Michael

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Burke, E. Haviland-

Joyce, Michael

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smith, F. E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Sullivan, Donal

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lundon, W.

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Clancy, John Joseph

Lyttelton, Rt. Rt. Hon. Alfred

Thornton, Percy M.

Cleland, J. W.

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Tumour, Viscount

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

Cogan, Denis J.

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Killop, W.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Watt, H. Anderson

Courthope, G. Loyd

Meagher, Michael

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Meehan, Patrick A.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset W.)

Criak, Sir Henry

Meysey-Thompson. E. C.

Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

Dairymple, Viscount

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Morpeth, Viscount

Younger, George

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Murphy, John

Douglas, St. Hon. A. Akers-

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir. Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Du Cros, Harvey

Nield, Herbert W.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nolan, Joseph

Main Question, as amended, again proposed.
Mr. ASQUITHrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The House divided:—Ayes, 269; Noes, 120. (Division List No.133.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lehmann, R. C.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Duckworth, James

Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

Agnew, George William

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Lever W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Levy, Maurice

Alden, Percy

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Lewis, John Herbert

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Armitage, R.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lough, Thomas

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lyell, Charles Henry

Astbury, John Meir

Erskine, David C.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Essex, R. W.

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Maclean, Donald

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Everett, R. Lacey

Macpherson, J. T.

Barker, John

Fenwick, Charles

M'Arthur, William

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Ferens, T. R.

M'Crae, George

Barnard, E. B.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

M'Kenna, Reginald

Barnes, G. N.

Fuller, John Michael F.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Fullerton, Hugh

M'Micking, Major G.

Beale, W. P.

Gill, A. H.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Beauchamp, E.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Grant, Corrie

Marnham, F. J.

Beck, A. Cecil

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Grove, Archibald

Massie, J.

Benn, John Williams (Devonp't

Gulland, John W.

Menzies, Walter

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Berridge, T. H. D.

Hall, Frederick

Mond, A.

Bertram, Julius

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Montgomery, H. H.

Billson, Alfred

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Morrell, Philip

Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Morse, L. L.

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N. E.

Hart-Davies, T.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Brace, William

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Murray, James

Bransdon, T. A.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Napier, T. B.

Branch, James

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

Bright, J. A.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Norman, Henry

Brodie, H. C.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Brooke, Stopford

Hedges, A. Paget

Nuttall, Harry

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Bryce, J.A.(Inverness Burghs)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Henderson, J.M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Paul, Herbert

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Henry, Charles S.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Pearson, Sir W. D.(Colchester)

Byles, William Pollard

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)

Cairns, Thomas

Higham, John Sharp

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Caldwell, James

Hobart, Sir Robert

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hodge, John

Pirie, Duncan V.

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Hooper, A. G.

Pollard, Dr.

Cawley, Frederick

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Horniman, Emslie John

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Howard Hon. Geoffrey

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hyde, Clarendon

Radford, G. H.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Illingworth, Percy H.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Cleland, J. W.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Redmond, Williar. (Clare)

Cooper, G. J.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rees, J. D.

Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E. Grins'd

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Rendall, Athelstan

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Renton, Major Leslie

Cory, Clifford John

Kelley, George D.

Richards, Thos. (W. Monmouth

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Cowan, W. H.

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Richardson, A.

Cremer, William Randall

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rickett, J. Compton

Crombie, John William

Lambert, George

Ridsdale, E. A.

Crossley, William J.

Lamont, Norman

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Davies, David(Montgomery, Co.

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Davies, W.Howell (Bristol, S.)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Robinson, S.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Stewart-Smith, D, (Kendal)

Weir, James Galloway

Roe, Sir Thomas

Strachey, Sir Edward

Whitbread, Howard

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

White, George (Norfolk)

Rose, Charles Day

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Rowlands, J.

Summerbell, T.

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Russell, T. W.

Sutherland, J. E.

Whitehead, Rowland

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Wiles, Thomas

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Wilkie, Alexander

Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Seaverns, J. H.

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

Seddon, J.

Thomasson, Franklin

Wills, Arthur Walters

Seely, Major J. B.

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Shackleton, David James

Tomkinson, James

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Toulmin, George

Winfrey, R.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick B.)

Verney, F. W.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Soares, Ernest J.

Waterlow, D. S.

Stanger, H. Y.

Watt, H, Anderson

Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork N.E.)

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nield, Herbert

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants. W.)

Nolan, Joseph

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Fell, Arthur

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Field, William

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

O'Doherty, Philip

Balcarres, Lord

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Dowd, John

Balfour, RtHn. A.J.(City Lond.)

Forster, Henry William

O'Hare, Patrick

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Malley, William

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Ginnell, L.

O'Mara, James

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Halpin, J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Hammond, John

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Hardy, L, (Kent, Ashford)

Percy, Earl

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Boland, John

Hayden, John Patrick

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hazleton, Richard

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Helmsley, Viscount

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hervey, F.W.F. (Bury S Edm'd)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Bull, Sir William James

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hogan, Michael

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Carlile, E. Hildred

Joyce, Michael

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Castlereagh, Viscount

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smyth, Thos. K. (Leitrim, S.)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Lord John P, Joicey-

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin S.

Sullivan, Donal

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)

Channing, Francis Allston

Lundon, W.

Thornton,, Percy M.

Clancy, John Joseph

Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred

Turnour, Viscount

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

Cogan, Denis J.

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Warde, Col. F. E. (Kent, Mid)

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

M'Killop, W.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Mason, James F. (Windsor

Williams. Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Meagher, Michael

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

Craik, Sir Henry

Meehan, Patrick A.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Dairymple, Viscount

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Younger, George

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Morpeth, Viscount

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir. Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Murphy, John

Du Cros, Harvey

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Question put accordingly.
The House divided:—Ayes, 262; Noes, 121. (Division List No.134.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Duckworth, James

Levy, Maurice

Adkins, W. Ryland

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Lewis, John Herbert

Agnew, George William

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hn. David

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Dunne, Major E. M.(Walsall)

Lough, Thomas

Alden, Percy

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Armitage, R.

Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward

Macdonald, JM(FalkirkB'ghs.)

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Erskine, David C.

Maclean, Donald

Astbury, John Meir

Essex, R. W.

Macpherson, J. T.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

M'Arthur, William

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Crae, George

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Fenwick, Charles

M'Kenna, Reginald

Barker, John

Ferens, T. R.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

M'Micking, Major G.

Barnard, E. B.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Barnes, G. N.

Fullerton, Hugh

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Gill, A. H.

Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n

Beale, W. P.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Marnham, F. J.

Beauchamp, E.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Beaumont, H. (Eastbourne)

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

Massie, J.

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Grove, Archibald

Menzies, Walter

Beck, A. Cecil

Gulland, John W.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Bellairs, Carlyon

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Mond, A.

Benn, John W. (Devonport)

Hall, Frederick

Montgomery, H.H.

Benn, W. (T'wr Hamlets, S. Geo

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

Morrell Philip

Bertram, Julius

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Morse, L. L.

Billson, Alfred

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Birrell, Rt. Hn. Augustine

Hart-Davies, T.

Murray, James

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Napier, T. B.

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Nicholson, Chas. N (Doncaster)

Brace, William

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Norman, Henry

Bramsdon, T. A.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Branch, James

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Nuttall, Harry

Bright, J. A.

Hedges, A. Paget

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Brodie, H. C.

Helme, Norval Watson

Parker, James (Halifax)

Brooke, Stopford

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Paul, Herbert

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh

Henderson, JM.(Aberdeen, W.)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

Henry, Charles S.

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.)

Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Higham, John Sharp

Philipps, J Wynford(Pembroke

Byles, William Pollard

Hobart, Sir Robert

Pirie, Duncan V.

Cairns, Thomas

Hodge, John

Pollard, Dr.

Caldwell, James

Hooper, A. G.

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset N

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Horniman, Emslie John

Priestley, W. E.B(Bradford, E

Cawley, Frederick

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Radford, G. H.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hyde, Clarendon

Rainy, A. Rolland

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Raphael, Herbert H.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Rees, J. D.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Rendall, Athelstan

Cleland, J. W.

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Renton, Major Leslie

Cooper, G. J.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Richards, Thomas (WMonm'th

Corbett, C.H(Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Kelley, George D.

Richards, T, F. Wolverh'mpt'n

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Richardson, A.

Cory, Clifford John

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Rickett, J. Compton

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Cowan, W. H.

Lambert, George

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Cremer, William Randal

Lamont, Norman

Robertson, Sir G Scott(Bradf'rd

Crombie, John William

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Robinson, S.

Crosfield, A. H.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Robson, Sir Wm. Snowdon

Davies, David (Montgomery Co

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E

Roe, Sir Thomas

Davies, W. Howoll (Bristol, S.)

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Lehmann, R. C.

Rose, Charles Day

Dickinson. W. H.(St. Pancras, N

Lever, A. Levy (Essex. Harwich

Rowlands, J.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral

Russell, T. W.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Summerbell, T.

White, George (Norfolk)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Sutherland, J. E.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Whitehead, Rowland

Scott, A. H.(Ashton under Lyne

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisb'ry

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Seaverns, J. H.

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Seddon, J.

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Wiles, Thomas

Seely, Major J. B.

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Wilkie, Alexander

Shackleton, David James

Thomasson, Franklin

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

Thompson, JWH(Somerset, E.

Williams, L. (Carmarthen)

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

Tomkinson, James

Wills, Arthur Walters

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Toulmin, George

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Verney, F. W.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Walker, H. De R, (Leicester)

Winfrey, R.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Soares, Ernest J.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd

Stanger, H. Y.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Waterlow, D.S.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Watt, H. Anderson

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Weir, James Galloway

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Whitbread, Howard

NOES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

Field, William

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Finch, Rt. Hn. George H.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Forster, Henry William

O'Doherty, Philip

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Dowd, John

Balcarres, Lord

Ginnell, L.

O'Hare, Patrick

Balfour, Rt. Hn AJ(City Lond.)

Grant, Corrie

O'Malley, William

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Halpin, J.

O'Mara, James

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Hammond, John

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Percy, Earl

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Hay, Hn. Claude George

Power, Patrick Joseph

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hayden, John Patrick

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hazleton, Richard

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Boland, John

Helmsley, Viscount

Redmond, William (Clare)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S Edm'ds

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire

Bull, Sir William James

Hogan, Michael

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Burdett, Coutts, W.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Burke, E. Haviland-

Joyce, Michael

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smith, F.E. (Liverpool Walton)

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin. S.

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Sullivan, Donal

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lundon, W.

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark

Channing, Francis Allston

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Thornton, Percy M.

Clancy, John Joseph

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E)

Turnour, Viscount

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Walker, Col. W. H.(Lancashire

Cogan, Denis J.

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Killop, W.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

White, Patrick (Meath, North

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Meagher, Michael

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Craik, Sir Henry

Meehan, Patrick A.

Wilsor, A. Stanley (York, E.R)

Dairymple, Viscount

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Younger, George

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Morpeth, Viscount

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Murphy, John

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir. Alexander Acland-Hood and

Du Cros, Harvey

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nield, Herbert

Viscount Valentia.

Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)

Nolan, Joseph

Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn,'' — (Mr. Whiteley,)—put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That the Committee stage and Report stage of the Education (England and Wales) Bill, including the Financial Resolution relating thereto, shall be proceeded with in the following manner:—(a) That the remaining part of Clause 2 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the first allotted day; (b) That Clause 3 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day; (c) That three allotted days he given, if required, to Clauses 4 and 5 and the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the third of these allotted days: (d) That two days be given, if required, to Clauses 6 and 7 and the Report stage of the Financial Resolution, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the second of these allotted days; (e) That throe allotted days be given, if required, to Clause 8 to 13 and any Motion which may be made to leave out Part II. of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on the third of those allotted days; (f) That Clauses 25 to 34 be proceeded with, and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted days; that Clause 35 and 36 be proceeded with, and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day; (g) That Part IV. of the Bill be proceeded with, and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion, on the next allotted day; (h) That the remaining clauses of the Bill, and the schedules, and any new Government clauses, and any new Government schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, be proceeded with and brought to a conclusion on the next allotted day; (i) That three allotted days he given to the Report stage of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion be brought to a conclusion on the third of these allotted days. After this Order comes into operation, any day shall be considered an allotted day for the purposes of this Order on which the Education (England and Wales) Bill is put down as the first Order of the Day. A
1526
Motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown to leave out Part II. of the Bill, or to leave out any clause of the Bill, before the consideration of any Amendments to that part or clause in Committee. The Question on a Motion moved by a Minister of the Crown to leave out Part II. of the Bill or to leave out any clause of the Bill shall be put forthwith by the Chairman or Speaker without debate. At 10.30 p.m. on any allotted day on which proceedings on any allotted business are to be brought to a conclusion, or if the day is a Friday, at 4.30 p.m., the Chairman or Speaker shall, if those proceedings have not already been brought to a conclusion, put forthwith the Question or Questions on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice has been given (but no other Amendments), and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted business to be concluded, and in the case of Government Amendments or of Government new clauses or schedules, he shall put only the Question that the Amendment be made, or that the clause or schedule be added to the Bill, as the case may be. At 11 p.m. on the day on which the Third Reading of the Bill is put down as first Order, or if that day is a Friday at 5 p.m., the Speaker shall put forthwith any Question necessary to conclude the proceedings on that stage of the Bill. Proceedings to which this Order relates shall not, on any allotted day on which proceedings on any allotted business are to be brought to a conclusion under this Order be interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House. After the passing of this Order, on any day on which any proceedings on the Education (England and Wales) Bill stand as the first Order of the day, no dilatory Motion on the Bill non Motion for Adjournment under Standing Order 10, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by a Minister of the Crown, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith without debate. Any Private Business which is set down for consideration at 8.15 p.m. on any allotted day, or on the day on which the Third Reading of the Bill is put down as first

1527
Order, shall, instead of being taken on that day as provided by the Standing Order "Time for taking Private Business," be taken after the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill for that day, and any Private Business so taken may be proceeded with though opposed, notwithstanding the Standing Order
1528
"Sittings of the House." — (Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.)
Adjourned at twenty eight minutes after Two o'clock.

Preamble
The Lord Thring took the Oath.
Charles Baron Ritchie of Dundee was (in the usual manner) introduced by virtue of a patent dated December 22nd, 1905, his father, the first Baron, who was created by such patent, never having taken his seat.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: Baker Street and Waterloo Railway; Lancashire Electric Power; St. Pancras Electricity; Tottenham and Edmonton Gas; Metropolitan District Railway; Kettering Water; Middlesex County Council (General Powers); North-west London a Railway; Bristol Corporation.
And also the certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have not been complied with: Metropolitan Water Board; London County Council (Tramways and Improvements); London County Council (General Powers).
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
London County Council (General Powers) Bill; London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill; Metropolitan Water Board Bill. Examiner's certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Friday next.
Sea Fisheries Provisional Order Bill; Lind Drainage Provisional Order Bill. Read 2a (according to order).
Corporation of London (Blackfriars and other Bridges) Bill. A petition of Messrs. Dyson and Company, of 9, Great George Street, Westminster, Parliamentary agents, praying for leave to
1318
present a petition of the Metropolitan Water Board, praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 93 for presenting such petition has expired. Read, and ordered to lie on the Table, and Standing Order No. 93 to be considered to-morrow in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said petition.
Nettlebed and District Commons (Preservation Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
London Squares and Enclosures Bill [H.L]. Report from the Committee of Selection, that the Lord Clinton be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Lord Digby. Read, and agreed to.
Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Sewerage Board Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Hackney Electricity Bill. Brought from the Commons. Read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills. Ordered, that Standing Orders No. 72 and 82 be suspended for the remainder of the session.
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Kesteven, &c.) Bill [H.L.]. Order of the day for the Third Reading read, and discharged.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of denominational religious teaching in schools, of teachers in schools at Levonshulme; Bolton; Stretford (2) and Chequerbent. Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of maintenance of existing religious teaching in Church of

  1319
  England schools, of parents and guardians of children attending school at Rochdale; St. Mary's; Stretford; All Saints'; St. Brides; Roughtown; Levenshulme; Bolton, and St. John's. Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
    HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
    Second Report from the Select Committee made, to be printed; and to be considered on Thursday next. (No. 125.)

    TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
    No. 3638. Portugal (Madeira).
    No. 3639. France (Brest).
    No. 3640. Mexico.
    No. 3641. China (Newchwang).

    MISCELLANEOUS No. 1. (1906.)
    Reports from His Majesty's representatives abroad respecting the remuneration of Members of Parliament in foreign States.

    ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS, 1882 AND 1888.
    Special Report by the Board of Trade under Section 1 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1888.
    Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
    Indian Railways Act Amendment Bill. Brought from the Commons and read 1a and to be printed.

  ALKALI, ETC., WORKS BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON): My Lords, I need not detain your Lordships for more than a minute or two in asking you to be good enough to accord a Second Reading to this Bill, the object of which is to consolidate and amend the Alkali, etc., Works Regulation Acts, 1881 and 1892.
  1320
  There is only one clause to which I think I ought to draw the attention of the House—namely, Clause 8. By this clause it is proposed to place smelting works in the same position as cement works and to render them liable to inspection by an inspector of the Local Government Board. Smelting works will not, however, come under the Schedules. If any noble Lord desires to put a question to me with regard to this Bill I shall be very glad to answer it to the best of my ability. I beg to move the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Earl Carrington.)
  LORD BELPER: My Lords, I do not rise for the purpose of opposing the Second Reading of this Bill, but I have just received a communication from a gentleman who is very much interested in smelting works, and ho informs me that the proposal to include smelting works has been agreed to without any consultation with the manufacturers concerned. He asserts that this provision will be a most serious one for smelting works in this country. It will, he says, have a very deleterious effect upon them, and be likely to necessitate smelting being done abroad instead of in this country. I have had no time to examine the Bill, but I hope my correspondent is taking an exaggerated view of this provision. In the circumstances I trust that if the noble Earl presses the Second Reading to-day he will, before taking the Committee stage, allow ample time for communication with those interested in smelting works, so that they may have an opportunity, which they appear not to have had in the House of Commons, of stating their views.
  EARL CARRINGTON: My Lords, I should like to state that the Bill as introduced this year did not refer to smelting works, but in Committee in the other House the Hon. Arthur Stanley moved their inclusion, and, so far as I know, no objection was raised. It will be observed that the clause in question does not schedule smelting works and thus make them subject to the restrictions imposed on works which are scheduled; it merely authorises inspection. I shall be only too pleased to meet the wishes of the noble

  1321
  Lord with regard to the date at which the Committee stage is taken. In the circumstances perhaps your Lordship's will allow the Bill to be read a second time as it stands. Clause 8 could then be taken on its merits in Committee.
  LORD BELPER: I have no objection to the Second Reading if ample time is allowed before the Committee stage is taken.
  On Question, Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  RESERVE FORCES BILL.
  Order of the Day for Committee read.
  *THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The EARL of PORTSMOUTH): My Lords, perhaps I may be permitted to make a short explanation with regard to what happened on Thursday last. Viscount Knutsford objected to the Amendments which I had placed on the Paper, but my noble friend for once failed in his legal acumen and discovered what has since been proved to be a mare's nest. None of us on this side of the House could make out the exact point that my noble friend was raising. The Amendments have for their object the correction of an error which was overlooked in the House of Commons, and if my noble friend had afforded me an opportunity of going over the Amendments with him I think he would have seen that they were in order. In the circumstances I had no alternative but to postpone the Amendments until to-day, and I took that course in case there had been any inaccuracy in the drafting. But immediately after the House rose on Thursday I sent to my noble friend the Bill with the changes effected by the Amendments marked in ink. This, as I anticipated, quite cleared up the error under which my noble friend was labouring, and I received from him on Saturday morning a note to the effect that he was quite satisfied and assented to the insertion of the Amendments.
  House again in Committee (according to order).
  [The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:—
  Amendments moved—
  In page 1, line 22, after the word "Kingdom" to insert the words ''or of British Protectorates;" in lines 26 and 27, to leave out the words "the expression 'His Majesty's Dominions outside the United Kingdom' shall include British Protectorates "; in line 28, to leave out the words "self-governing colony" and to insert the words "colony possessing responsible government"; and in page 2, line 2, to leave out the words "powers of self-government" and to insert the words "responsible government."—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 127.)

  SEAMEN'S AND SOLDIERS' FALSE CHARACTERS BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
  JUVENILE SMOKING.
  Moved, That the Select Committee appointed to consider the Juvenile Smoking Bill [H.L.] be empowered to consider the question of juvenile smoking generally, and its effect on the physical condition of children; and to report whether any and, if so, what, alterations in the law are desirable or practicable with a view to stopping the sale of tobacco and cigarettes to children below a certain age (The Lord Denman); agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  METROPOLITAN POLICE (COMMISSION) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, half past Ten o'clock.