Sitting of 16 July 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.:—Paisley Gas and Water Provisional Order Bill.
  Ordered (under Section 9 of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be read a second time upon Wednesday.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS [LORDS](STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLETHERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing' Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords]; Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords]; Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
  Cumberland Electricity and Power Gas Bill [Lords]; Folkestone and District Electricity Supply Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  Glamorgan and South Wales Water Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, with an Amendment.
  Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Bill [Lords]; (King's Consent signified). Bill read the third time and passed, with Amendments.
  Warboys (Union of Districts) Drainage Bill [Lords]. Read the third time and passed, with Amendments.
  Southport and Lytham Tramroad (Extension of Time) Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  West Yorkshire Tramways Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.
  Cardiff Gas Bill (by Order); Manchester Corporation Bill (by Order). Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  Great Northern Railway (Ireland) Bill [Lords] (by Order). Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [9th July], further adjourned till Wednesday.
  Shoreditch and Stepney Electricity Bill (by Order). Order for Second Reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
  Metropolitan Electric Supply Bill (by Order). Head a second time, and committed.
  Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 1) Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  Glasgow and South Western Railway Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read a second time; and ordered to be considered To-morrow.
  Kent Electric Power Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP I).
  Mr. TOULMIN reported from the Committee on Group I. of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Thursday, at Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire Electric Power Bill,
  1298
  Ascot District Gas (Electric Lighting" Bill, with Amendments.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled " An Act for preventing by agreement with the present owners of certain lands in the administrative county of London the future erection of buildings and structures on such lands; and for other purposes." [London Squares and En closures Bill [Lords].
  London Squares and Enclosures Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions, for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against; From Loughton West Felton; and Wigan; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES). BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
  Petition from Chadderton, agains alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  POISONS AND PHARMACY BILL [LORDS].
  Petitions from Great Yarmouth, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EAST INDIA, WARLIKE OPERATIONS(KILLED AND WOUNDED).
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address, 28th May;Mr. Morton]; to lie upon the Table.
  CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.
  Return presented, relative thereto. [Address, 3rd July;Mr. Lloyd Morgan]; to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 257.]

  POLLING DISTRICTS (BOROUGH OF STOCKTON-ON-TEES).
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Council of the Borough of Stockton-on-Tees altering certain Polling Districts in

  1299
  the Borough [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  POLLING DISTRICTS (WEST RIDING OF YORKSHIRE).
  Copy presented, of Order made by the 'County Council of the West Hiding of Yorkshire constituting Polling Districts in the Elland and Doncaster Parliamentary Divisions [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  INEBRIATES ACTS (INSPECTOR'S REPORT) (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Inspector for Scotland, under the Inebriates Acts, for the year 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ALLOTMENTS (SCOTLAND).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 22nd March;Mr. Eugene Wason]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 258.]
  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION ACT, 1888.
  Copy presented, of Odor made by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, under the provisions of the said Act, for the variation of an Order for creating the Northumberland Sea Fisheries District [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Statement showing Syllabuses of Religious Instruction issued by Diocesan and other Associations for the use of Church of England schools [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (WELSH (INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION ACT, 1889).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Board of Education for the year 1904–5 on the Administration of Schools, under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 259.]

  SUPERANUATION ACT. 1884.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 11th July 1906, declaring that Hugo Marinitch, C.M.G., Dragoman, His Majesty's Embassy, Constantinople, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of
  1300
  the head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION (IRELAND).
  Return ordered, " showing the amount paid in each quarter of the period from the 1st day of April 1900 to the 28th day of Fbruary 1905 to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society in respect of each officer of the society whose services were utilised by the Department in giving instruction in agricultural subjects and organising agricultural home industries and agricultural audit societies."—(Mr. Dillon.)
  DIPLOMATIC REPORTS (COAL).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th March;Mr. Fenwick]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 260.]
  BANKRUPTCY.
  Copy presented, of Twenty-third General Annual Report by the Board of Trade under the Bankruptcy Act, 1883 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 261.]

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3667 to 3670 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  POST OFFICE (FOREIGN AND COLONIAL PARCEL POST).
  Copy presented, of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 19) Warrant, 1906, dated June 28th, 1906 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  JOINT STOCK COMPANIES.
  Return ordered, " (I.) of the Companies registered during the year ended the 31sb day of December 1905 which filed a prospectus and to which certificates to commence business have been granted, stating—

  (1) the date of registration.

  (2) the date of the prospectus.

  (3) the amount of the nominal capital.

  (4) the amount of each share.

  (5) the amount issued or to be issued otherwise than for cash.

  1301

  (6) the amount offered for subscription in cash.

  (7) the amount underwritten.

  (8) the commission for underwriting.

  (9) the minimum subscription required.

  (10) the amount allotted before commencing business.

  (11) the amounts per share payable on application and allotment.

  (12) the total directors' share qualification, if any; and

  (13) the date of the certificate to commence business.

  (II.) Of the Companies registered during the year 1905 which filed a prospectus, but to which certificates to commence business have not been granted, stating the particulars specified in (I.) so far as they are applicable.
  (III.) Of the Companies registered during the year 1905 which filed a declaration that the Company " does not issue any invitation to the public to subscribe for its shares."
  (IV.) Of the Companies registered during the year 1905 which have not filed a prospectus or a declaration that the Company " does not issue any invitation to the public to subscribe for its shares," and stating the particulars specified in (I.) so far as they are applicable.
  (V.) Of the Companies which were dissolved or struck off the registrar during the year 1905.
  (VI.) Of the total number of Companies dissolved during the year 1905 (1) by order of the Court; (2) after voluntary liquidation; and (3) pursuant to the provisions of Section 7 of The Companies Act, 1880, and Section 20 of The Companies Act, 1900.
  (VII.) Of the total number and nominal paid-up and considered as paid-up capital of the Companies registered during the year 1905 in London, Edinburgh, and Dublin respectively, distinguishing limited Companies from unlimited, and Companies registered with a nominal capital from Companies registered without such capital.
  (VIII.) Of the total number and paid-up capital, including the amounts con-
  1302
  sidered as paid on vendors and other shares, of all Companies having a share capital which were on the register on the 30th day of April 1906, except such Companies as were in course of liquidation or removal from the register under the provisions of Section 7 of The Companies Act, 1880, and Section 26 of The Companies Act, 1900.
  (IX.) Of the total number and nominal capital of the Companies registered in England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively in every year since the commencement of The Companies Act, 1862, to 1905, inclusive.
  (X.) Of the fees and capital duty paid in respect of Registered Companies during the year 1905."— (Mr. Lloyd-George.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Sale of Grazing Farm at Leefin.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any complaint has reached the Estates Commissioners in connection with the sale of a large grazing farm in the townland of Leefin, parish of Balamana, Loughrea, by the landlord, Mr. John Smyth, of Loughrea, to Mr. Patrick Farrell, of Loefin; whether he is aware that Mr. Farrell is a large agricultural tenant on the same property; and whether the Commissioners, before sanctioning the sale, will institute inquiries as to the number of small holdings in the neighbourhood and the necessity of enlarging them out of this grazing farm.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that this farm consisting of 330 acres, forms portion o the estate of Mr. J. Smyth, which they have agreed to purchase under Section 6 of the Act. Mr. Farrell, who is yearly tenant of the farm, has, upon the suggestion of the Commissioners, consented to give up sixty-nine acres of it for the purpose of enlarging the three holdings on the estate which require enlargement. The remainder of the farm is being sold to Mr. Farrell. He has no other holding on the property which is being sold. The

  1303
  arrangements for the purchase and re-sale of the property have been completed.

  Sale of a Grazing Farm on the Darcy Estate.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if an agreement form to purchase the grazing farm of Caramina from the trustee to the Darcy property, situate in the parish of Balamana, Loughrea, has been filed with the Estates Commissioners by Mr. Martin Farrell; whether he is aware that Mr. Farrell is an agricultural tenant on another property, holding over 100 acres of prime land; and whether, in view of the number of small holdings in the neighbourhood, he will advise the Commissioners not to sanction the agreement until such time as the small holdings are made economic out of this grazing farm.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that the farm referred to was part of the estate of Anne Kelly and others, which was purchased by the Commissioners under Section 6 of the Act of 1903. Martin Farrell was tenant of the farm which contained some 160 acres. At the request of the Commissioners he offered to give up twenty-two acres of the land to be divided between two tenants on an adjoining estate who were anxious to have their holdings enlarged. These tenants refused to take the twenty-two acres unless all the land were surrendered by Farrell and divided. The Commissioners accordingly sold to Farrell the whole of the farm occupied by him, and it has been vested in him. The Commissioners understand that Mr. Farrell has another farm on another property.

  Riverside Open Spaces.
  LORD BALCARRES: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that trees have been planted upon the Custom House Quay, and that seats have been placed there by the Metropolitan Public Gardens Association, and that for many years past the quay has been used daily by large numbers of the public for fresh air and recreation during the spare moments of their day's work in the warehouses and offices adjacent; whether he is aware
  1304
  that there are less than half a dozen riverside spaces from the cast of Blackfriars Bridge to the county boundary, and these only of small extent, to which the public have access; whether he is aware that the City Corporation possess an adequate site for fish-market purposes at Shadwell, which has not hitherto been developed; and whether, under these circumstances, he will decline to accede to the request of the City Corporation and the fish merchants of Billingsgate that he should grant the use of the quay for fish-market purposes, which would necessitate the destruction of the trees, the removal of the seats, and the exclusion of the public from one of the few riverside spaces which they at present enjoy in the eastern part of the Metropolis.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) The subject is receiving my careful consideration; but I have not yet given any reply to the request of the City Corporation. I shall certainly not fail to have due regard to the important aspect of the Question to, which the noble Lord refers.

  Local Taxation.
  MR. MORRELL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the recommendations made by the Royal Commission on local taxation five years ago and the admitted urgency of this Question, the Government contemplate taking any stops to deal with it.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) The Question referred to by my hon. friend is engaging the careful attention of the Government.

  Native Killed by Soldiers in Egypt.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information to the effect that a native was killed by British soldiers near the village of Sersena, on 13th June last; whether a secret military inquiry is now being held; and, if so, why the inquiry is secret, and why is it not held by the ordinary tribunal.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The dead body of a native was discovered at Sersena, and it was alleged that the

  1305
  deceased had been chased and struck by two soldiers. As British soldiers are only amenable to martial law in Egypt, the matter has been dealt with by a military court of inquiry, but the information obtained does not point to the conclusion that the man was killed by a soldier. I believe that such inquiries are not usually held in public.

  Sentence on the Rev. Edgar Stannard.
  MR. BENNETT: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has been informed of the sentence passed upon the Reverend Edgar Stannard by the court at Coquilhatville, Congo Free State; and if His Majesty's Government will place Vice Consul Armstrong's full Report on the Table of the House when it is received.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) His Majesty's Government have not yet heard officially of the sentence passed upon the Reverend Edgar Stannard by the court of Coquilhatville. The question of placing Vice-Consul Armstrong's Report on the Table of the House will be considered as soon as it has been received.

  Denshawi Affray—Papers.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he will lay upon the Table the Papers promised in connection with the Denshawi affray, and the subsequent trials and executions.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) My right hon. friend hopes to be able to lay the Papers some time next week. The detailed account of the evidence will, however, not be included, as there has not yet been time to translate it.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any, and, if so, what, further measures in addition to the executions, floggings, and imprisonments already carried into effect have been adopted against the villagers of Denshawi in consequence of the events of 13th June.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The village of Denshawi has been deprived of an Omda and has been attached to the
  1306
  adjacent village of Abu Kullos. The former village watchmen have been dismissed, and other watchmen sent from Cairo to take their places.

  El Azhar University Police Force.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government of Egypt have decided to station a force of police within the precincts of El Azhar University; and, if so, on what grounds this step has been decided.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) At the request of the authorities of the El Azhar University the police force for preserving order in and about the university was recently increased.

  Compulsory Purchase of Holding by Patrick McGlone.
  MR. DOLAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, what action he proposes to take in the case of Patrick McGlone, of Aghanlish, Largydonnell, county Leitrim, who was compelled by the Estates Commissioners to purchase his holding from them at a price which is thirty-eight and a-half years' purchase of the rent fixed by the county court judge.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have not yet arrived at a decision in this case, in which legal questions of difficulty are involved. As I have already stated, they are considering whether they shall take steps to test the decision of the county court judge in the case. The matter is not one in which action on my part is called for.

  Irish Land Purchase Act—Sporting Rights.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state if the Estates Commissioners have yet taken any steps to render Section 13 of 3 Edw. 7, c. 37, workable, and particularly with regard to subsection 3 of said section; and, if so, will he state what are the conditions under which the Commissioners are prepared to dispose of the mining and minera

  1307
  rights; and has any transaction under this sub-section 3 taken place.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The question of issuing regulations upon the subject of the sporting rights vested in the Land Commission under the section quoted is under consideration. As regards the mining rights, it was decided by the Judicial Commissioner, in a recent case referred to him by the Estates Commissioners, that the Land Commission have no power to deal with or dispose of the mines and minerals vested in them until authorised so to do by statute. The question of undertaking the necessary legislation is receiving the attention of the Government.

  Enlargement of Holdings on the Roo Estate.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners propose to enlarge the holdings on the Roo estate, annuitants to the Government, near Gort, county Galway, out of the un-tenanted lands purchased from Mr. Shawe-Taylor.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that the townland of Roo does not appear to be on the estate of Mr. Shawe-Taylor, but on that of Mrs. A. C. Maxwell, the un-tenanted land upon which has already been divided. The Commissioners have not yet received from their inspector the proposed scheme for the division of un-tenanted land on the Shawe-Taylor estate, and until this scheme has been received and considered the Commissioners are not in a position to say whether land will be available for persons other than the tenants on the estate.

  Sale of the Lambert Estate, Athenry.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners have received a copy of a resolution passed at a representative meeting of the Athenry people on Sunday, 8th July, setting out that the Lord Chancellor and the owners of the Lambert property, Athenry, are agreeable to sell to the tenants; is he aware that the
  1308
  tenants made an attempt to buy, but that, owing to the price demanded by the receiver, Colonel Lopdale, namely, twenty-five years' purchase, the negotiations fell through; and whether, having regard to the willingness of both sides to negotiate a sale, he will advise the Estates Commissioners to try and effect a settlement.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received a memorial from the Athenry town tenants on the estate of Lamberts Minors. The Commissioners are at present in correspondence with the receiver of the estate with a view to purchasing it under Section 6 of the Act of 1903, and thus effecting a settlement of the case.

  Foreign Firms and Army Meat Contracts.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a number of contracts, during the period of the supply of home-fed beef, were held by the nominees of other people who are interested in Foreign lairages; whether he will cause an examination to be made of these gentlemen's accounts with the various carrying companies from Wood-side Lairage, Birkenhead, to the several Army stations from which they have held contracts; whether he intends to take-any measures in regard thereto; and whether he will consider the advisability, at the expiration of the existing contracts, of making arrangements to receive home-produced animals, sheep and cattle, alive, and allow the soldiers to do the necessary work at the various stations.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) It does not appear that an inquiry into the working of expired contracts, which would hardly be practicable, could serve any useful purpose. As regards the last part of the Question there are at present four stations at which cattle are slaughtered by the troops, and it is not proposed to increase the number.

  Yeomanry Drill Book.
  MR. HUNT: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that Yeomanry are mounted infantry, as distinct

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  from cavalry, and that at present Yeomanry have to learn their drill from the cavalry drill book, much of which is quite useless and some of it quite wrong for mounted infantry, so that it has to be corrected by various supplementary papers, causing confusion and difficulty, and in view of the fact that Yeomanry training is extremely short, he will, in the interest of Yeomanry officers, non commissioned officers, and men, consider the advantage of issuing a drill book containing plain definite instructions for Yeomanry training.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Imperial Yeomanry are not included in the category of mounted infantry but are trained to be capable of performing all the duties allotted to cavalry except those connected with shock action. Their role is clearly donned in the instructions for the training of Imperial Yeomanry which were drawn up after very careful consideration. No confusion or difficulty, has been created, and no complaints of the present methods of instruction have been received at the War Office from the general officers commanding in chief.

  Sanitary State of Egyptian Towns.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will consent to the Return being given of copies of the correspondence between the hon. Member for Canterbury and the Foreign Office on the affairs of Egypt and the sanitary state of Cairo and other towns of Egypt.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) I do not consider that any useful purpose would be served by printing this correspondence and presenting it to Parliament. As I have already informed the hon. Member, the authorities in Egypt are fully alive to the importance of improving the sanitary conditions of the towns, and the matter is one which will not be lost sight of.

  Civil Service Boy Clerks.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury how many boy clerks were appointed by the Civil Service Commissioners during the year ended March 31st,
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  1906; how many secured permanent positions in His Majesty's Civil Service; and how many, during the same year, were dismissed on attaining the age of twenty.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I am informed that in the year referred to 762 boy clerks were added to the register. Two hundred and six boy clerks were removed from the register on being certificated for permanent appointments in the Civil Service, and in addition twenty-four left to take up appointments under Government of a quasi-permanent character or permanent public appointments not in the Civil Service. I understand that probably a considerable number obtained permanent positions after ceasing to be boy clerks, but it is not possible to say how many. The number of those removed from the register on attaining the age of twenty was 273, inclusive of boys who resigned their appointments as boy clerks very shortly before attaining the age of twenty.

  Grievances of Assistant Clerks in Customs Statistical Offices.
  MR. THORNTON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has received the memorial forwarded in May last by the new class of assistant clerks in the Statistical Office, Customs; and, if so, whether he can state what steps have been taken to secure to the memorialists similar treatment to that enjoyed by their colleagues in other departments.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The case of those clerks was fully considered early in the present year, and certain improvements were authorised in the scheme of promotion to superior posts. A further memorial on the subject has recently been received in the Treasury and is now under consideration. With regard to the last words of the hon. Member's Question, the conditions of employment in the Customs Department are necessarily determined with reference to the requirements of that particular service.

  Post Office Savings Bank Accounts.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether any non-interest bearing

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  accounts in the Savings Bank Department are transferred to the dormant ledgers, or whether all interest-bearing accounts are kept in the ordinary ledgers, no matter how long since the books were forwarded for examination or actual transactions took place on them; and, if so, whether he will cause all accounts on which no actual transactions have taken place, or the books forwarded, for a period of five years to be transferred to the dormant ledgers, an index of the names of these depositors kept, and a list periodically published, in order that the legal representatives of all deceased depositors may have facilities for claiming moneys due to them by the Savings Bank Department.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, owing to the fact that no index of depositors' names is kept in the Savings Bank Department, and that no list has ever been published showing unclaimed balances to the credit of depositors who have not forwarded their book for examination or deposited or withdrawn money for a number of years, sums of money are in the hands of the Government which the legal representatives of many of those depositors are entirely unaware of, whilst others find it very difficult to claim under the present system, unless they can supply particulars of deceased depositors' books; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I may, perhaps, answer these Questions together. There is no regular system of transfers, either of interest bearing or of non-interest bearing accounts to dormant ledgers in the Post Office Savings Bank. As I informed the hon. Member on July 3rd,† I am not prepared to sanction the compilation and publication of a list of accounts that have not been operated on for a given period, nor the preparation of a general index of depositor's names, as I consider that the expense and inconvenience that would attend these under takings would more than counterbalance any advantage to depositors that might be derived from them.
  † See (i) Debates, clix., 1600.

  Refreshments at Kew Gardens
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if his attention has been directed to the character and price of the refreshments supplied by the contractor at the Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew; and whether he will make such arrangements as will ensure that the public are better served in this respect in future.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) Very few complaints have been made with regard to the refreshments at Kew. The prices charged are low, and constant supervision is exercised by the Office of Works over the quality of the food and the character of the service. But I shall be very glad to cause further inquiry to be made if my hon. friend will let me know more precisely in what respects he considers that there is room for improvement.

  Kew Gardens—Official Guides.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if his attention has been directed to the fact that the only guides to be obtained at the Royal Botanical Gardens are detailed sectional official productions and an inadequate non-official production; and whether he will give instructions for an official guide to be prepared for sale at say 3d. or 6d., which will describe and illustrate the contents of the gardens in broad outlines and in simple but accurate terms.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The preparation of an official guide to Kew Gardens has kindly been undertaken by Sir William Thistleton-Dyer, the late director, and it will be completed and placed on sale at the earliest possible date.

  Capital Punishment
  MR. ESSEX: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many sentences of death were passed in Great Britain during the ten years ending 1860, 1870, 1880, 1890, and 1900,

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  respectively; how many of such sentences were duly carried out; how many commuted to terms of imprisonment; and how many were remitted altogether.

  Period.

  Total death sentences.

  Number executed.

  Commuted to.

  Free pardons.

  Respited and removed to Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum.

  Transportation.

  Penal servitude.

  Imprisonment.

  Reformatory detention.

  1851–1860

  584

  111

  266

  180

  20

  1

  4

  —

  1861–1870

  286B

  137

  —

  135

  4

  —

  6A

  2D

  1871–1880

  283c

  156

  —

  111

  2

  —

  1

  12

  1881–1890

  300

  158

  —

  113

  6

  —

  1

  22

  1891–1900

  246

  142

  —

  95

  —

  —

  —

  9

  Notes: A. One conviction quashed by Court for Crown Cases reserved.

  B. Two prisoners under sentence of death committed suicide.

  C. One prisoner under sentence of death committed suicide.

  D. This figure includes one case sent to Bethlehem Hospital.

  Accidents Caused by Motor Traffic.
  MR. CHANNING: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now able to state what has been the number of accidents to or caused by motor omnibuses in the Metropolitan area; and what has been the number of accidents caused by other motor vehicles since the last figures given to the House.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I am not clear to what figures my hon.

  May.

  June.

  Accidents caused by motor cars (including motor cycles)

  556

  559

  Number of these accidents which caused personal injury

  169

  178

  Number of these accidents which proved fatal

  4

  4

  Accidents caused by motor omnibuses

  400

  390

  Number of these accidents which caused personal injury

  62

  80

  Number of these accidents which proved fatal

  2

  3

  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The following Table gives the particulars desired for the years 1851 to 1900, inclusive:—
  friend refers in the last sentence of his Question. The subjoined Table gives particulars of motor omnibus accidents in the Metropolitan Police district for the months of May and June, the last two periods for which the figures have been collected. I have arranged for the monthy and yearly collection and tabulation of these particulars in the future, so that statistics will always be readily available.

  Irish Railway Clearing House Returns.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can arrange that the latest Returns of the Irish Railway Clearing House be laid upon the Table of this House, and containing information as to the making of preferential through rates in Ireland; whether he will set out in the Return the apportionate payments made to Continental, British railways, shipping companies, and Irish railways respectively; and whether he will ensure that the ordinary rate chargeable from Dublin shall be specified in the Return, so that a comparison shall be possible between the through and local inland rates.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I am not able to give a Return of the nature suggested. Beyond the provisions of Section 33 (5) of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888, under which in certain circumstances the apportionment of through rates between the sea and land portion of the route is required to be set out in the rate books kept for public inspection, carriers are not required to disclose the division of through rates amongst themselves.

  Testing of Motor Omnibuses.
  MR. CHANNING: To ask the President of the Local Government Board in what way and by what officials the safety of the construction and equipment of motor omnibuses for street traffic or for use on country roads is now tested; whether certificates of fitness for the traffic specified are now issued after any such testing and inspection; and whether he will consider the advisibility of forthwith strengthening the law and the administrative requirements and powers so as to better provide for the security of the public.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) In the Metropolitan Police district stage carriages of all kinds, including motor omnibuses, are inspected and licensed by the police. Motor omnibuses, like other omnibuses plying for hire, in urban districts outside the Metropolitan Police district are licensed by the urban district council, and in connection with such licensing are liable to be inspected. No formal certificates of fitness for the traffic specified are issued. The suggestion in
  1316
  the last part of the Question will not be lost sight of.

  Irish Railways and Canals—Appointment of Committee of Inquiry.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is intended to appoint the Inquiry Committee on Irish Railways and Canals between the House adjourns; whether a time limit for Report will be made; and whether the Committee will be granted extensive powers as to taking evidence and sitting in various centres in Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Commission of Inquiry into Irish Railways has already been appointed. The terms of reference and names of the Commissioners were published last Friday. No time limit for Report has been fixed or could be fixed. The Commission have the usual powers of taking evidence in whatever places they think fit.

  Extension of Allotments Act to Ireland.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the House of Commons unanimously passed a Resolution in favour of extending the Allotments Act to Ireland; and whether he will consider the advisability of introducing the measure at an early date.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The hon. Member doubtless refers to the Resolution made on the 13th of April 1894, in which the House expressed the opinion that the facilities for obtaining land possessed by England should be extended to Ireland. I would, however, remind the hon. Member that since then a great deal has been done by the Labourers' Acts to give effect to the principle of the Resolution, and the Bill at present before the House will, when it passes into law, hasten the provision of labourers' cottages and plots. The precise provisions of the Allotments Acts are hardly suitable to the circumstances of Ireland.

  Sale of Rockfield Farm, County Westmeath.
  MR. SULLIVAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Cleary, the owner of Rockfield Farm, near Streamstown,county

  1317
  Westmeath, was willing to sell it to the Estates Commissioners for distribution amongst the poorer tenants, and that on communication with the Commissioners they replied that as the land was encumbered they could not buy it for distribution; and can he say if incumbrances debar purchase.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am informed by the Estates Commissioners that the farm in question was purchased by the occupying tenant under the Land Act of 1903. The Commissioners are, by Section 9 (4) of the Land Purchase Act of 1891. precluded from making advances for the purchase of land already purchased under the Land Purchase Acts and still subject to the payment of a land purchase annuity. The Commissioners, however, can purchase in such a case if the lands should be discharged of all encumbrances. They have, however, received no intimation that Mr. Cleary, the present owner of the farm referred to, is prepared to soil it freed from encumbrances, but if such an intimation should be made to them they will consider the question of purchase.

  Irish Local Authorities Accounts.
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the date upon which the abstracts of the closed accounts of the respective public bodies in Ireland are required to be forwarded to the Local Government Board or their auditor preparatory to commencing audit of their accounts; the dates upon which the respective audits were commenced in respect of the half years ended 30th September 1904, and 31st March 1905; the dates upon which the respective accounts were certified as audited by the Local Government Board's auditor; the fees for such audits paid by the respective public bodies; and the salary paid to each of the seventeen Local Government Board auditors for the year ending 31st March, 1905.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) Article 25 of the Public Bodies Order, 1904, requires that the abstracts of the accounts of public bodies in Ireland shall be forwarded to the Local Government Board within four weeks after the close of each year or half year as the case may be.
  1318
  The preparation of a Return giving the information asked for in the second and third part of the Question would entail a great deal of trouble, and would occupy a considerable time. In the opinion of the Local Government Board such a Return would not serve any useful purpose, because any conclusions which might be drawn from it would be misleading for the reason that, owing to adjournments, interruptions, and the manner in which the accounts are presented, no accurate comparisons between the time occupied upon the audits of the accounts of different bodies, or even between the times occupied upon the audits of the accounts of the same authorities for successive periods can be instituted. If the hon. Member should see fit to move for a Return by counties of the fees recovered by the Local Government Board from public bodies for auditing accounts, I will offer no objection. The salaries of the auditors will be found in the Civil Service Estimates.

  Ballinakill Oyster Fishery Banks.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Ballinakill, county Galway, oyster fishery banks were declared public property some seventeen years ago by the Rev. Mr. Green, Fishery Inspector to the Congested Districts Board, and that the rights and privileges secured to the people in the neighbourhood by that declaration are now threatened by an application for a licence for one of these banks by a Miss Duane and for another by a Mr. Gilmour Browne; and whether steps will be taken to protect the rights of the people in regard to these banks.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am informed that Mr.Green did not at any time make a declaration as to the extent of the public oyster beds in Ballinakill Harbour, nor has he power to do so. Applications for licences to form oyster beds in parts of this harbour were recently made by Miss Duane and Mrs. Browne. The statutory public inquiries were held by Mr. Green, who is the officer to whom the Department of Agriculture have assigned this duty. He was satisfied that no substantially profitable public fishery for oysters was carried on in areas for which the licences

  1319
  were desired, and licences to Miss Duane and Mrs. Browne are being prepared. Appeals to have the licences vacated may, within one month of the date thereof, be made to the Lord-Lieutenant in Council. The areas affected by the proposed licences were formerly the site of licensed oyster beds, but the licences were revoked on account of the non-cultivation of the beds.

  Prisoners Detained in the Clifden Bridewell.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the number of persons detained for one or more nights in the Clifden Bridewell during the last twelve months; what is the annual cost in connection with this bridewell; and whether, in view of the fact that criminals can now be quickly conveyed to Galway Gaol by train, he will consider the desirability of closing the establishment or selling it.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The number of persons detained for one or more nights in the Clifden Bridewell during the last twelve months was twenty-one. The estimated cost of maintaining the bridewell is £68. The whole of this sum would not be saved by closing, the bridewell, as there would necessarily be a larger expenditure than at present for the escort and conveyance of prisoners to and from Galway Prison which is fifty miles from Clifden; and, in addition, the detention of police escorts in Galway for the night would be necessitated. The question whether it may be possible to close the bridewell will, however, be considered.

  Tullycross Police Barracks.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the peaceful condition of the district for some considerable time past, and of the fact that the police barracks at Letterfrack are only three miles distant, the police barracks at Tullycross, county Galway, will be discontinued; and if he will state the number of cases the four or five policemen at this station have had during the last year.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The police station at Tully, which is three miles from Letterfrack, is situated in a populous district. The locality, however, has been reported as peaceable for some time past,
  1320
  and the question of the necessity for continuing the station will shortly come up for consideration. The number of prosecutions by the police at this station during the past year was fifty-one.

  Purchase of Captain Caldbeck's Estate, Ballacolla.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have made any offer to Captain Caldbeck, Ballacolla, for the purchase of his estate; and, if so, can he say with what result.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have not yet made an offer for the purchase of his estate, but with a view to doing so, they have referred the matter to their inspector, whose report has not yet been received.

  Suggested Grant for Construction of Cunnigar Bridge and Roadway.
  MR. O'SHEETo ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a memorial signed by the chairmen of the Dungarvan urban and rural district councils and others on behalf of these councils, urging the importance of the construction of the Cunnigar bridge and roadway, and asking for a grant for the purpose of £15,000; whether his attention has been called to the memorial presented to the Secretary of State for India, when Chief Secretary for Ireland, on the same subject; and whether he will be able to make a personal investigation during the present year into the merits of the proposed works, having regard to the advantages which it is claimed will accrue from their construction.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I have received the memorial referred to, and as I have already informed the hon. Member, have examined the memorial which was presented in 1894 to the then Chief Secretary. I have obtained reports upon the proposal to erect a bridge or causeway at the Cunnigar, and these lead me to doubt whether the benefit to be obtained would be commensurate with the very large expenditure which would be necessary. In any case funds for works of the kind are not at present available. I shall

  1321
  be glad to visit the Cunnigar when opportunity offers, but am not able to say when that may be.

  Poor Law Commission—Irish Medical Member.
  MR. O'SHEE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the vacancy which has arisen on the Poor Law Commission by the death of The O'Conor Don, and of the dissatisfaction which exists in the medical profession in Ireland, owing to its having hitherto been unrepresented on the Commission, he will consider the advisability of appointing an Irish medical man to the vacancy.
  (Answered by Sir II. Campbell-Bannerman.) I cannot see my way to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Prime Minister whether the late The O'Conor Don was a member of the Royal Commission on the Poor Laws relating to the United Kingdom; and, if so, will he, in filling the vacancy, have regard to the wishes of the Irish Poor Law medical profession by appointing an Irish medical member.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman): I cannot see my way to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.

  Colonial Marriages.
  MR. LEA: To ask the Prime Minister whether he can inform the House at what date the Government propose to bring forward the Colonial Marriages (Deceased Wife's Sister) Bill, sent down more than four weeks ago, and for the third time, by the House of Lords.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman): The position in which this Bill stands on the Order Paper will give my hon. friend a general indication of its prospects.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Sparkbrook Factory
  MR. BARNES: On behalf of the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness I beg to ask the Secretary
  1322
  of State for War when did the negotiations with the War Office for the sale of Sparkbrook first begin; and what progress had been made in such negotiations when the late Government went out of office.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BUCHANAN,): Negotiations for the sale of Sparkbrook began on November 1st, 1905, by letter and by interview at the War Office. On November 15th the Army Council informed the Treasury that they thought it desirable to enter on negotiations for this purpose. These negotiations were engaged on and proceeded with up to the day on which the late Government resigned.

  Garrison Artillery Militia.
  COLONEL WALKER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether a Garrison Artillery Militia regiment, such as the Lancashire Artillery, having been trained for many years in the highly specialised work of drilling with the elaborate and scientific armaments in the Horsesand, No Man's, and Spit Forts, in the Solent, is to be included in the number of those Garrison Artillery Militia regiments who are in the future to form the ammunition train of the Field Artillery.
  MR. BUCHANAN: In accordance with the policy of allotting the Garrison Artillery Volunteers to coast defences, the services of Garrison Artillery Militia will not be required unless they avail themselves of the invitation to form a Field Artillery Reserve. It must be pointed out that the Volunteers have the advantage of being able to train all the year round and in the works they will have to man in time of war.

  Coldstream Guards.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: On behalf of the hon. Member for West Marylebone, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the expenses which will fall upon married officers of the condemned battalion of Coldstream Guards owing to their proceeding to Egypt for the winter in response to the appeal from the Government; and whether, in view of the special circumstances of the case, the

  1323
  Government will be prepared to contribute towards those expenses.
  MR. BUCHANAN: The various arrangements involved in the decision to despatch this battalion to Egypt have not yet been worked out in detail. I am not, therefore, in a position to give the hon. Baronet any definite reply to his Questions.

  Processions in India—The Bande Mataram.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: On behalf of the hon. Member for Tower Hamlets, Stepney, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that, on the first occasion on which the Bande Mataram processions were allowed under the new rules to perambulate the streets of Dacca, the people taking part in the procession assembled in front of the English church during service and shouted the song to such an extent that the Commissioner of the division, who was officiating, was unable to proceed with the service; and whether it is intended to take any steps so to regulate these Hindu processions as to prevent persons belonging to other religions being molested.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY FOR INDIA (Mr. JOHN ELLIS,): Under existing orders, the cry of " Bande Mataram " may be prohibited where it disturbs public worship, and the Secretary of State has no doubt that the local authorities will take such steps as may be necessary to put a stop to this form of annoyance.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: On behalf of the hon. Member for Tower Hamlets, Stepney, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the song of Bengal, known as the Bande Mataram, is distasteful to the Mahommedans, who form the majority of the population of the new province of Eastern Bengal and Assam; and whether, considering that the song was only composed in 1882 and has since then seldom been sung,even during Hindu national festivals, it is intended to adopt any measures to prevent a breach of the peace between Hindus and Mahommedans in Eastern Bengal.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: As I stated in reply to a Question on July 4th, the cry of " Bande Mataram " may be prohibited, under existing orders, whore it would cause such feeling in the Mahommedan population as would be likely to lead to a breach of the peace. The Secretary of State does not think that further orders are required.
  SIR H. COTTON: Has the hon. Gentleman any reason to believe that the song in question is distasteful to the Mahommedan population.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: That is a matter of opinion. My hon. friend had better give notice if he desires a reply.

  Executions of British Soldiers in India.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that a public execution of a private in the 1st Lincolns took place between the prison and the cemetery at Trimulgherry on September 1st last; that the station orders issued by Brigadier General E. O. F. Hamilton, C.B., commanding Secunderabad and Bolarum, on that occasion required the attendance of detachments of every corps, British and native, in the station; that the scaffold was erected a few hundred yards from a public roadway and in view of the windows of the cell in which the man was lodged prior to his execution, and that in the walk from the prison to the scaffold he had to pass through crowds of natives and white women and children assembled to see the execution; and will he say what action he proposes taking in the matter.
  The hon. Member also had the following Questions on the Paper on the same subject. To ask the Secretary of State for India why the soldier of the 1st Lincolns tried at Secunderabad last year for murder by a general court martial was not handed over to the civil authorities and tried at the High Court at Madras.
  To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will reconsider the sentence of penal servitude for life imposed on a corporal of the 2nd Border Regiment by a general court martial in Burmah last; year, for attempted murder, with a view to its mitigation, and explain why this

  1325
  case was not tried by the Chief Court at Rangoon.
  To ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that station orders, issued by a Brigadier General at Bolarum on August 30th last, contained paragraphs following each other, the effect of one being instructions for a general parade to witness the execution of a private in the 1st Lincolns, the next announcing regimental sports to be held by that battalion and the officers giving an at home; and whether he proposes to take any action with regard to the holding of a fete in the regiment twenty-four hours after the public execution of one of its men, which one company had been forced to witness.
  MR. JOHN ELLISreplied that the matter was receiving the attention of the India Office, and the Secretary of State was not yet in a position to give an Answer to the Questions.
  MR. LEAsaid that on May 30th he addressed a Question to the Secretary for War, who stated on June 18th that he was making inquiries. He asked if instructions would be given to the Commander-in-Chief in India that no white soldier should be executed under such barbarous circumstances.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Or native soldiers, either.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: This is a matter for the Secretary of State. I will convey to the right hon. Gentleman the suggestion of the hon. Member. We are, I can assure him, in communication with the Indian Government on the subject.
  MR. LEA: Will you cable out to India and ascertain if any British soldiers are now under sentence of death, and if so will you give provisional orders that the execution shall not be conducted under these barbarous circumstances.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: And also inquire as to native soldiers.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: I can give no pledge of that kind.

  Scotsmen and Indian Public Appointments
  SIR J. JARDINE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any, and what, proportion of the appointments recently made to the Public Works Department of India by the Secretary of State on the recommendation of a Committee of Selection were given to Scotsmen or to engineers educated at Scottish universities and institutions; and whether Scotland is represented on the Committee of Selection.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: Out of the twelve men who were recently selected for the Public Works Department (one of whom resigned), four were of Scottish parentage and three were educated at Scottish Universities. I do not think that any one of the three members of the Committee of Selection is a Scotsman; but made no inquiry as to their nationality.

  Natal Government—Bill of Indemnity.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a Bill of Indemnity has passed its Second Reading in the House of Assembly in Natal; whether by one of the provisions of this Bill, officers and agents of the Natal Government are indemnified for acts that may still be committed as well as for those that have been committed; and whether such a provision has hitherto been inserted in Acts of Indemnity.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): A Bill substantially in the form described by my hon. friend has been introduced in the Natal House of Assembly, and the Secretary of State is now communicating with the Governor on the subject of its provisions, for some of which there is no modern precedent.

  Opium Revenue Collection.
  MR. A. ALLEN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the abuses to which the farm system for the collection of opium revenue in the federated Malay States, Singapore, and Hong Kong has given rise, he will consider the advisability of making any alterations in the respective systems by

  1327
  which the sale of opium is now licensed in those countries.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The system of farming the opium revenue has frequently been considered, and it has been held to be the one best adapted to the circumstances of these communities, in which there are no import duties and no Customs establishment available for collecting them. The Secretary of State is not aware that the system has given rise to abuses, and, in the light of past experience, he does not, as at present advised, see what alterations could usefully be made.
  MR. LUPTON: In view of the opinions expressed by the Secretary of State for India, will the Government not consider the desirability of putting an end to the production of opium in British possessions?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I must have notice of that Question. It refers apparently to a speech which I should see before replying.
  MR. A. ALLEN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give a Return as to the quantity of opium consumed and the amount of revenue derived therefrom during the last ten years in the federated Malay States and Singapore.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Governor of the Straits Settlements will lie asked to supply the information.

  East African Protectorate.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now state when it is proposed to establish a certain amount of representative or Crown Colony government in our East African Protectorate.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State proposes at an early date to, advise His Majesty to issue Letters Patent providing for the establishment of a Legislative Council in the East African Protectorate, which will include unofficial members nominated by the Crown.

  The Chief Nana.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now state whether it has been decided to allow the chief Nana to return to his own people and country after the long punishment he has received.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State has decided, upon the advice of Sir Walter Egerton, to permit the chief Nana to return to Southern Nigeria and to settle at a town called America in Bonin River. A compassionate, allowance of £10 a month will be paid to him for two years, after which it is expected that he will be able to support himself.

  Dismissal of British Teachers from Cape Colony.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the action of the school board at Marnisburg, in Cape Colony, on which the Ditch have obtained a majority, in dismissing all the English teachers in the schools of the district; and whether he will bring this matter to the notice of the Government with a view to safeguards being introduced in the new constitutions of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony against injustice being done to British officials in those Colonies.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I have seen a newspaper statement to this effect. The general position of British or other officials likely to be affected by the forthcoming constitutional changes in the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies will certainly not escape the notice of His Majesty's Government so far as that is not inconsistent with the general principles of responsible government.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: But, Sir, will the hon. Gentleman take immediate steps to ascertain whether this outrage has, in fact, been committed.
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid he should himself hesitate to accept, upon such testimony as they had before them, the word " outrage" which the right hon. Gentleman had used in regard to a proceeding of local government in a. responsibly governed Colony.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Does the hon. Gentleman mean us to understand that the turning out of all the teachers in a British school in a British Colony because these teachers are English is not an outrage?
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid he had answered fully the Question on the Paper, and if the right hon. Gentleman wished to put further Questions, perhaps he would give notice.
  MR. LONSDALEasked whether the hon. Gentleman would promise to make special inquiries concerning this report.
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid he was quite unable to make a promise of that kind himself. He was bound to consult the Secretary of State on the matter; and if the hon. Gentleman would put a Question on the Paper, he would have the opportunity of conferring with the Secretary of State before giving an Answer.

  Outrages on the Rand.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in possession of information enabling him to say whether on Saturday the 7th July the house of a white man in the Rand district was attacked by Chinese and Kaffirs, the man robbed and injured and his wife outraged, dragged across the veldt, and again outraged; and whether the perpetrators of the alleged outrage have been arrested.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State has not yet received a reply from Lord Selborne to the telegram addressed to him on the subject.

  Japanese in the Transvaal.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the subjects of His Majesty the Emperor of Japan enjoy the same rights and privileges in the Crown Colony of the Transvaal as the subjects of the German Emperor.
  MR. CHURCHILL: All Asiatic races are subject to certain disabilities which do not apply to Europeans.

  British Indians in the Transvaal.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the word native in the Treaty of Vereeniging includes His Majesty's Indian subjects; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Indian subjects are entitled, as natives, to acquire freehold property in the Transvaal.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I have previously explained to the hon. Member in an Answer to a Question on March 15th † that it was asserted that the proposal to admit British Indians to the franchise was a breach of the spirit, if not of the letter of the Treaty of Vereeniging, which engaged that the question of granting the franchise to natives would not be decided until after the introduction of self-government. The late Secretary of State felt bound to take account of this view and accordingly stated in his despatch of March 31st, 1905, that, having regard to the terms of peace, His Majesty's Government had been unable to make provision for the representation of any of His Majesty's coloured subjects. Under the special law applying to Asiatics, Law 3 of 1885, British Indians cannot be owners of landed property save only in the streets, wards, and locations which the Government shall for sanitary purposes point out for habitation.

  Labour Recruitment in Africa.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now state whether licences for the recruiting of native labourers on the east coast of Africa or elsewhere have been issued to any persons other than the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association; and, if not, will he state what is the cause of the delay.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No fresh licences have, so far as I am aware, been issued at present. The issue of licences, I would remind the hon. Member, is primarily a matter for the Portuguese Government, and negotiations are now proceeding with the object of obtaining equal recruiting facilities for other corporations of established responsibility. No undue delay is anticipated.
  † See (i) Debates, cliii., 1400.

  Cotton Duties in South Africa.
  MR. BELLOC: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the recent increase in the duties upon English cottons imposed by the South African Colonies applies to goods now on the high seas and shipped before the increase was made known.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir. Under the law of the Cape Colony, Transvaal, and Natal when an increase is made in the Customs duty on any article after the conclusion of a contract for the sale or delivery of such article and no special provision for the increase is made in the contract, the seller, having paid the increased duty, may add the amount of the increase to the price and is entitled to be paid the amount and in case of default to sue for and recover it by process of law.

  Religious Services in Malta.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state when the correspondence between the Government and the Governor of Malta as to the prevention of the Reverend John M'Neill from holding religious services in Malta at the request of the Roman Catholic archbishop will be laid upon the Table of the House.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State is in correspondence with the Governor on this subject, and I hope to be able to answer the hon. Member's Question on Thursday, when it is expected that a despatch from Sir Charles Clarke will have been received.
  MR. CORBETT: Will the complete correspondence be laid on the Table of the House before the Colonial Vote is taken?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I shall be glad for the House to have the fullest possible information on a matter which excites interest in more than one quarter, but I am not sure how far it is possible to publish the whole correspondence. I will examine it from that point of view.
  MR. CORBETT: I will put the Question again on Thursday.

  Emigration to British Colonies.
  SIR J. DICKSON-POYNDER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether effect is to be given to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on Agricultural Settlements in British Colonies, by reorganising the emigrants information office under the title of the Emigration Office, by extending its functions as suggested by the Committee, and by increasing the annual grant-in-aid sufficiently to provide for the necessary increase of permanent staff.
  MR. CHURCHILL: It is intended that the substance of the Report shall form one of the subjects to be discussed at the forthcoming Colonial Conference; and in the meantime His Majesty's Government do not propose to come to any decision on the recommendations made by the Committee.

  Slavery in Zanzibar.
  SIR C. HILL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government propose to apply to the mainland dominions of the Sultan of Zanzibar, now administered by His Majesty's Commissioner for the East Africa Protectorate, provisions similar to those brought into force in Zanzibar and Pemba in 1897 for the abolition of the legal status of slavery.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on May 30th to a similar Question by the hon. and gallant Member for West Dorset, a copy of which will be sent with the typewritten reply to this Question.†

  Turco-Egyptian Frontier.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the progress of the negotiations for the delimitation of the Turco-Egyptian frontier; and when it is expected that the work will be completed.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RUNCIMAN,—for Sir EDWARD GREY): I am unable to add anything to the Answer given to the hon. Member for Blackpool on July 3rd. last, viz.: that
  † See (4) Debates, clviii.. 388.

  1333
  the delimitation is proceeding on the spot.

  Egyptian Schools.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in the secondary Government schools of Egypt, as a result of the British control, religion is not taught and the Koran is not read, notwithstanding the fact that 92 per cent of the population are of the Mohammedan confession.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: Religious instruction is not given in the secondary Government schools in Egypt. This has always been the practice, and it is in no way due to interference on the part of the British authorities.

  Field of Waterloo.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the plans which are in contemplation for the development of the field of Waterloo as a building estate; and whether he will make representations to the Belgian Government with a view of insuring the preservation of the historic features of the battle ground.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: My right hon. friend has seen a statement in the Press from which appears that little historical interest attaches to the farm at Waterloo which has been sold. I do not think that representations on the subject need be made to the Belgian Government.

  Abandonment of the Baltic Cruise of the British Fleet.
  MR. KEIRHARDIEasked if the Government had any information to give as to the proposed visit of the British Fleet to Russian waters?
  MR. RUNCIMAN: It has been intimated to us by the Russian Government that, in view of the political situation in Russia, the presence of foreign ships in their ports might give rise to agitations and incidents connected with internal affairs, and it has therefore been decided not to proceed with the cruise as had been intended. His Majesty's Government much regret that this visit of the Fleet
  1334
  has to be postponed, the more so as there would be difficulties in rearranging the remaining part of the programme, and it has therefore been decided to give up the intended cruise to the Baltic altogether, including visits to other ports.

  Custom House Quay.
  MR. T. DA.VIES: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has been approached by the Corporation of the City of London with a view to handing over to them Custom House Quay for the purpose of utilising it in the extension of Billingsgate Market; whether he is aware of the boon this open space has been to hundreds of toilers in this congested district since the Metropolitan. Public Gardens Association has been allowed to place seats and plant trees on the quay; and whether he will refuse to grant the request of the City Corporation.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,): I recently received a deputation from the City Corporation and other bodies asking me to allow the quay to be used between certain hours and subject to certain conditions, to relieve the congestion which exists in connection with the Billingsgate Market. I have not yet given a reply to the request of the Corporation, and, in considering the Question, I certainly shall not fail to bear in mind the important aspect of it to which my hon. friend refers.

  Metropolitan Police.
  MR. ROWLANDS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether a member of the Metropolitan constabulary, charged with being under the influence of drink while on duty, has the same privilege as a civilian in respect of claiming the opinion of a medical man as to his state and condition; and, if the privilege does not exist, will he consider the desirability of granting it?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): No alteration of existing practice in the direction indicated could be introduced without detriment to discipline.

  Child Insurances.
  MR. L. HASLAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, having regard to the fact that, under the present laws affecting the insurance of the lives of children, the death of a child may, by means of insurance, be a source of profit to the person insuring, whether he will consider the advisability of introducing a Bill to provide that there shall be a limit to the amount payable on the death of a child, so that the amount payable shall not exceed such as may be reasonably required to pay for the funeral expenses of the child.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I do not know whether my hon. friend is aware that by {Sections 62–67 of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, the sum for which a child under five can be insured in one or more societies is limited to £6, and that by the Collecting Societies Act, 1896, Section 13, this limitation is extended to all Industrial Assurance Companies. Great difficulties have arisen in the way of the numerous proposals which have been made to amend the law by further reducing this limit. I would refer my hon. friend to my reply to the hon. Member for Tower Hamlets on February 22nd last, † in which I explained that the criminal law relating to this matter is already very severe, a parent who insures a child and then is guilty of cruelty or culpable neglect being liable to penal servitude for five years under Section 1, Subsection (4) of the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Act, 1904.
  † See (4) Debates, clii., 506.

  Vivisection Inquiry.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state when the Committee, which he proposes to appoint to investigate the subject of experiments on living animals, will hold its first meeting; and of whom the Committee will consist.
  MR. GLADSTONE: A Royal Commission on this subject is about to be appointed, and the names of the Commissioners will be announced in due course when His Majesty has approved them.

  Food Factory Inspection.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can say how many notifications of the insanitary condition of factories in which jam and other articles of food are manufactured were forwarded by the women inspectors to sanitary authorities during the period covered by the Report of the chief inspector; and whether he has authorised any Home Office inspector to act in default of the sanitary authorities, as provided for by Section 4 of the Factory Act, 1901.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I fear I cannot give the hon. Member, the information asked for at such short notice, but the sanitary provisions of the Act in the case of factories are enforced by the inspectors of factories, not by the local authorities, and the number of such notices as are mentioned in the Question would be few. No case arose during 1905 in which it was found necessary to make an order under Section 4 of the Factory Act for the supersession of the local authority by the factory inspector with regard to the enforcement of the Act.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the factories in which articles of food are made, and which are alleged to be in an unsanitary condition, are premises hitherto unknown to the Home Office inspectorate, or have been subject to inspection by the male inspectors for any considerable time. I beg further to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the keeping of a factory in a cleanly state free from effluvia or other nuisance is provided for under the Factory Act, 1901, Section 1, without the intervention of the sanitary authorities; and, if so, whether stops were taken by the Home Office inspectors to remedy the defects narrated in the women's annual Report respecting jam and other food manufactories.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have no reason for supposing that the factories referred to were unknown to the district inspectors, or have remained unvisited by

  1337
  them. Neglect of cleanliness at one period does not, in a trade such as this, argue previous absence of inspection. I regret to say, however, that a number of the matters to which the lady inspectors call attention, such as the cleanliness of the workers handling food materials, the cleanliness of the pots which are filled with jam, etc., are outside the scope of the Factory Act. They should, I think, be dealt with under the law for the protection of the public health, and I am bringing them to the notice of the President of the Local Government Board. The requirement of Section 1 of the Factory Act is that a factory shall be kept in a cleanly state and free from effluvia. Action was taken by the inspectors wherever the defects found were of a kind with which they had power to deal. I may add that this is by no means the first time that the inspectors have reported insanitary conditions in food preserving works, and that as the result of these reports considerable progress has been made in their sanitation, and bad places have become fewer. The whole question of the inspection of these premises is under my consideration, and I hope that still further progress will soon be made.

  Metropolitan Police and Sunday Duty.
  MR. T. DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, having regard to the action of the French Chamber in passing almost unanimously a measure making it obligatory on all employers of labour to grant one day's rest in seven to their employees, he will reconsider the matter of granting the men of the Metropolitan Police a similar boon; and whether, if he cannot at once grant one day's rest in seven, he will consider if it is not possible to grant thorn one day in ten as an instalment.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The Bill adopted by the French Chamber applies only to commercial and industrial employments and not to the Police. In any event the case of the English Police (who, it must be remembered, are entitled after twenty-six years' service to retire on pension and enjoy seven days rest a week) must be considered on its own merits. I have already, in reply to previous Questions,
  1338
  explained the difficulties, chiefly financial, which stand in the way of adopting the hon. Member's suggestions; and as regards my position in the matter I beg to refer him to the debate in the House of Commons on June 7th.

  Boy's Conviction for Begging at Gateshead.
  MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that on the evening of Friday, April 20th, 1906, a boy named Henry Maughan, aged six years, was seized by a policeman while looking into a shop window, close to his own home, taken to the police station, and charged with begging; that on the unsupported and contradicted evidence of that policeman alone he was, on May 7th, last, sentenced at the Gateshead police court to be taken from his parents and confined for ten years in an industrial school; whether he is further aware that, at the same time and on no evidence at all, the boy's father was condemned to pay a fine of 11s. and a permanent charge of 1s. 6d. a week for 10 years, and ordered to report any change of his address during that period to the police; and whether he will cause a review of the circumstances of the case to be made without delay with a view to the restitution of the child to his parents.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have made inquiry into this case, and find that this boy (whose name is William Maughan) was seen to accost seven men in the course of ton minutes; he had also been loitering in the locality nearly every evening for the previous five weeks. I am informed that the father had on two previous occasions in November last been cautioned by the Police for allowing another child to be in the streets for the purpose of begging. William Maughan was committed to an industrial school in the usual manner until sixteen, and his father was fined 5s. with costs, under the Youthful Offenders Act, and ordered to pay 1s. 6d. a week towards the cost of the child's maintenance. On the facts at present before me I do not see my way to interfere, but I propose to make further inquiries before coming to a final decision.
  †see(4)debates,clvii.,601,603
  MR. BOWLES: Will the right hon. Gentlemen inquire if this boy was convicted on the unsupported evidence of the policeman who arrested him?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, but I think the hon. Gentleman is mistaken on that point.
  MR. LUPTON: Is not ten years imprisonment a very heavy sentence on a child in a case like this?
  MR. GLADSTONE: It is not imprisonment.

  Truck Act.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the recent decision of the King's Bench Division of the High Court in Ireland in Dean v. Wilson, a case which arose on a prosecution at petty sessions of a factory inspector against an employer of labour, and in which it was held that a certain weekly payment was not wages within the meaning of the Truck Acts, but was a bonus; and whether he will bring this decision under the notice of the Committee which is now inquiring into the Truck Acts.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The decision in this appeal, which was taken by my instructions, has been reported to me. I am informed that it has already been brought to the notice of the Committee on the Truck Act.

  Motor-'Bus Traffic.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOONasked the Home Secretary whether he would consider the expediency, in the interests of public safety, which recent events had proved to be endangered, of suspending all existing licences of motor omnibuses —pending the establishment of a more rigid and effectual system of inspection than that which now obtained of the brakes and other safety appliances of such vehicles, and whether he would see that only such drivers as understood the mechanism of motors should be employed.
  MR. GLADSTONE: This is a Question which requires longer notice than I have
  1340
  received. I am unable to accept the hon. Gentleman's main suggestion. I may say there is no evidence to prove that the recent accidents referred to are attributable to defective or unsuitable brakes or steering gear. The working condition of the brakes of all licensed: vehicles is carefully and frequently inquired into by officers of the licensing authority. Any defect noticed would lead to the vehicle being forbidden to ply in the streets until it had been remedied. The question, which is both important and urgent, is one which falls within the province of the Royal Commission on Motor Cars, and the Select Committee on Cabs and Omnibuses.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the month, of June last there were 390 motor-'bus accidents in London?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, I gave the figures myself.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind I the fact that everybody considers these I 'buses a nuisance and a public danger— and that the town authorities of Kensington recently passed a resolution in which they declared that the value of property in their district had gone down because of the nuisance caused by these 'buses, and that children cannot go out into the read for a moment without danger?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am aware, and I think every hon. Member is aware, that the motor-'buses now plying on the public streets are defective in many ways, and in certain ways are distinctly a nuisance, but these points will be most carefully examined into. The whole question is a, new one, and it is impossible to act in a hurry. I can assure the hon. Member that the matter is receiving the most; serious attention, not only in connection I with the inquiries I have already referred to, but on the part of both the police authorities and my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Do any members of the Cabinet or supporters of the Cabinet ever use those 'buses?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Imprisonment of Anti-Vaccinators.
  MR. LEHMAXN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that Spencer Bray, J. J. Vann, and S. Bruin, of Blaby, in Leicestershire, were on Monday last committed to Leicester Gaol, the first two for seven days and the last for fourteen days, on orders under Section 31 of The Vaccination Act, 1867; and whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any steps to alter the law so as to make such imprisonments impossible in future.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. I have no information as to the particular cases referred to; but I may point out that a parent would not be liable to any penalty under the Vaccination Acts for the non-vaccination of his child if he had obtained a certificate of conscientious objection under Section 4 of the Act of 1898. I am aware that the procedure with regard to obtaining such a certificate is not altogether satisfactory, and I am considering whether some alteration might not properly be made in the law with regard to the matter.

  Pontaxdawe Medical Officer of Health.
  MR. J. WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received any notification from the Pontardawe Rural District Council of the reappointment of Dr. Griffiths Griffiths, of Pontardawe, as medical officer of health for the western division of this union; whether he has received a memorial signed by eleven members of the rural district council protesting against Dr. Griffith's reappointment for reasons stated therein; and whether he will suspend the confirmation of the appointment and make such inquiries as to the grounds upon which those reasons have been stated as are necessary in the case.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have received the notification of Dr. Griffith's reappointment and also the memorial referred to in the Question. I propose to direct an inquiry to be held before I arrive at a decision as to sanctioning the reappointment.

  Alleged Ill-treatment of a Lunatic at Bramley Union.
  MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that a man named Charles Endsor was taken from his residence, on May 11th, 1904, to the Bramley Union, Leeds, without the consent of his relatives, on the ground that he was of unsound mind, and that while in the act of escaping from the hospital ward he was caught, thrown over a wall in the grounds, and frogged across a field to the hospital, and put into the padded room, being removed two days after to the West Riding Asylum at Menston, ultimately dying there five weeks later; will he explain why there was no post mortem on the body; and, having regard to the seriousness of this and other cases of a similar character, whether he will consider the advisability of ordering a public inquiry into this matter.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am aware that allegations of the kind mentioned in the Question have been made as regards the case to which it refers. The matter was brought before the Local Government Board, who, after investigating it, came to the conclusion that there was no ground for further action on their part. It was subsequently again considered by them, but they saw no sufficient reason for altering their view. In these circumstances, and looking to the fact that the case occurred more than two years ago, I could not undertake now to reopen it.

  Vaccination Prophylaxy.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, with a view to the production of more accurate statistics of vaccination prophyaxy, he will give directions for the examination of the vaccination registers in all cases of small pox to ascertain whether the patients have or have not been vaccinated.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: A somewhat similar Question was put to me by my hon. friend the Member for the Sleaford division on June 10th.† For the reasons I then gave I do not feel that I could give directions of the kind suggested.
  † See (4) Debates, clviii., 1141.
  MR. LUPTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman direct that no statistics shall be published at all?
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the present system necessarily results in the publication of inaccurate statistics?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I do not admit that.

  Hythe Burial Ground.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the recent decision of the Court of Appeal in Godden v. Hythe Burial Board, in which it was held, owing to an obvious flaw in The Burials Act, 1855, that an owner of land who chooses now to build a dwelling-house within 100 yards of a burial ground not used or appropriated prior to the date of the Act can veto interments within 100 yards range; and whether he will take the earliest suitable opportunity which presents itself to amend the law.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: My attention has been called to this matter. I certainly will give consideration to the suggestion for an amendment of the law.

  Shipping Rebates.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the recommendations of the Australian Commission on shipping rebates, which are declared to be open to abuse and calculated seriously to prejudice the trade of the Commonwealth; and whether it is intended to appoint a Royal Commission to report upon the effect of such rebates upon the commerce and industry of this country, with special reference to the South African trade.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,): Yes, Sir, my attention has been called to the recommendations in question. The Government intend to appoint a Royal Commission to deal with the whole question of rebates, and the South African trade will be included in the scope of the inquiry.

  School Age.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the fact that compulsory education begins at a lower age in England than in any other civilised country; and whether he will consider the desirability, either of amending the existing Law or of recommending to local education authorities that no parent should be prosecuted for keeping his child away from school until the child has attained seven years of age.
  THE PRESIDENT TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,): I have perused the White Paper recently issued by the Board of Education on this subject. I am not prepared to attempt any legislation on the matter of school attendance for the present at all events. As regards the concluding paragraph of the Question, the authorities have a wide discretion, and I do not think it is desirable, while the Law is as it is to put any pressure upon thorn in the direction suggested.

  Luton School Libel Case.
  MR. BARNES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been called to the case of E. W. Lemmon, who is being prosecuted for libel in connection with state in outs made in reference to the alleged flogging of children at Luton School, Chatham, a non-provided school; and if he will order an inquiry into the whole circumstances.
  MR. BIRRELL: My attention has only been called to the case through the hon. Member's Question. So far as the information in the Board's possession enables me to judge, it would scorn that after a preliminary hearing of the case on March 22nd the defendant was bound over to stand his trial at the next Assizes. I have no later information than this, but will endeavour to find out what has happened. It would not be proper or expedient for me to take any action while the case is sub judice.

  West Biding (Yorkshire) Teachers' Salaries.
  MR. LANE-FOX: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the fact that the West Riding

  1345
  County Council have decided to appeal against the recent decision of the Court of King's Bench as to the payment of teachers' salaries, he can now consent so to amend Clause 10, Sub-section (2), of the Education Bill as to secure the full payment of teachers' salaries by the local education authority in the transition schools created under that clause.
  MR. BIRRELL: I have no information as to the alleged intention of the County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and I see no connection between any appeal they may think fit to lodge against the unanimous decision of the Court of King's Bench and the sub-section of the clause referred to by the hon. Member.
  MR. LANE-FOX: In the event of the West Riding County Council deciding not to appeal will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to secure payment of the arrears of the teachers' salaries, seeing that they are poor men in many cases?
  MR. BIRRELL: My sympathies are entirely with the teachers. I will do the best I can.

  Vaccination of Pupil Teachers.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the proviso in the regulations for the instruction and training of pupil teachers, which comes into force on August 1st next, that candidates must be vaccinated except when a parent or guardian has declared a conscientious objection means that a magistrate must have granted a certificate, or that such objection may be declared to the local education authorities irrespective of any action that a magistrate may have seen fit to take.
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Board will not require for the purpose of its registration any declaration before a magistrate, but will be satisfied with a declaration signed by the candidate or when a minor by his parent or guardian, to be countersigned by the local authority's representative and one other responsible person.

  Education Appeals.
  LORD BALCARRES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, where extended facilities are demanded under
  1346
  Clause 4 of the Education Bill and are refused, an appeal to the Board of Education would lie in the case of a school about to be transferred under the Act, a school actually transferred and desiring these facilities, or a school coming into existence after the Bill is passed.
  MR. BIRRELL: I am not sure what the noble Lord means by the phrase "about to be transferred," but there is an appeal on the part of the owners of an existing voluntary school, fulfilling the various conditions of Clause 4, against the refusal of a local authority to agree to a transfer of the schools; and if the Board make an order requiring the transfer of the school to be taken by the authority, the giving of extended facilities under Clause 4 may also be ordered us part of the arrangement thus made by the Board upon the appeal. As regards (2) andr (3) there is no appeal.

  Irish Ordnance Survey—Map Printing.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can say why the printing of maps six inches to the mile is being carried out at Southampton instead of Dublin, in view of the fact that the work is purely Irish; whether printers were discharged in 1905 from the Ordnance Survey, Dublin, and, if so, how many; if he can state the number of employees under notice of discharge at the Dublin Survey Office; and whether it is intended to abolish the Irish Survey as a productive department, and thereby transfer all the work of production to Southampton.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: As a temporary measure some of the six-inch maps of Ireland are being printed at Southampton, as the printing staff in Ireland is at present fully occupied with urgent work for the Land Judge's. Court. One printer was discharged in 1905 owing to the increased output of the motor driven presses, which were introduced in that year. Two young men are under notice of discharge as there is no opportunity for their further advancement and it is not in their own interest to keep them on at boys' duties. There is no intention of transferring all the producing work to Southampton. I may add that the proportion of the total cost

  1347
  of the Survey which is expended in Ireland has risen from 33 per cent, to 43 per cent, in the last five years.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: If the printing staff in Dublin is fully occupied how is it there have been recent discharges from that Department?
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEYasked for notice.

  Pensions of Scottish Asylum Officials.
  MR. GULLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he intends taking any steps to carry out the suggestion of the Commissioners of Lunacy in Scotland, in their last Report, that officers and servants of district asylums in Scotland should be placed in the same position, as regards pensions, as officers and servants in comity and borough asylums in England.
  SIR J. JARDINE: I beg also to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he will be able during this session to take the requisite measures to place the officers and servants of the Melrose Lunatic Asylum, and other similar institutions, in the same position as regards superannuation allowances as these employed in England and Ireland.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,): I regret that I have no alternative but to repeat the Answer given to my hon. friend the Member for Roxburghshire, on 9th April last, † to the effect that I am unable to introduce a Bill conferring the necessary powers this session.
  † See (4) Debates, civ., 1002.

  Barlinnie Prison, Glasgow.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, whether he is aware that the maximum number of prisoners for whom accommodation is provided in Barlinnie Prison, Glasgow, is 1,034; that on July 3rd there were no fewer than 1,100 prisoners in that prison, some of whom had been sent there to serve sentences for overcrowding, and that a number or them were placed together, three in a cell, of less than 1,000 feet capacity; and will he say how this accommodation compares with
  1348
  the minimum air space per adult insisted on by the Glasgow Coloration in the worst class of ticketed houses.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The accommodation at Barlinnie is very slightly above the number given by the hon. Member, and a few of the cells have a cubic capacity of 1,784 feet. The situation referred to existed for one night, and fifty prisoners were transferred to Perth on the following day. I am aware that there is a deficiency of prison accommodation in the Glasgow district of the country, and steps are being taken to increase it. In the meantime transfer of prisoners are made as quickly as can be arranged. Already during the present month 150 prisoners have been moved from Barlinnie prison. I have not been able to ascertain the regulations of the Glasgow Corporation about ticketed houses.

  Glenties Union—Clerk's Salary.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that at Glenties, county Donegal, on the 7th instant, 500 people, many of them carrying sticks, assembled at the workhouse and intimidated the guardians into rescinding a resolution passed a month ago voting an increase of salary to the clerk of the union; whether the Local Government Board has sanctioned this increase; and what steps they propose to take in the mutter.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE,): An increase of salary of £20 a year was voted by the Glenties Board of Guardians to the clerk of the Glenties Union on June 5th, and a letter notifying the sanction of the Local Government Board was issued on June 22nd. A deputation of ratepayers attended at the guardians' meeting on the 7th instant to protest against the increase, but it does not appear from the guardians' minutes that any proposal was made to rescind the resolution granting the increase. No necessity, therefore, has arisen for the Local Government Board to take any steps in the matter. I am informed by the police authorities that it is the fact that a large number of ratepayers accompanied the deputation referred to, but their deameanour was quiet and orderly, and no intimidation was used.

  District Inspector Wade, Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOROn behalf of the hon. Member for East "Wicklow, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether District Inspector Wade, who has recently been transferred from Queenstown to Wicklow, has for the past three years drawn an annual allowance for the wages of a manservant; if so, whether he kept a manservant; during the whole of that time, or did one of the police constables act as servant for him; if so, was the constable paid for such work; and if this is contrary to the regulations.
  MR. BRYCE: The reply to the first Inquiry is in the affirmative. The Inspector-General informs me that on three occasions during the period mentioned the district inspector was suddenly left without a groom, whereupon three constables voluntarily fed and watered his horse for a few days until he got a groom. When the matter was brought to the Inspector-General's notice in January last he informed the district inspector that, while he fully appreciated the good feeling shown by the constables, the bettor course would have been to send the horse to a livery stable. The constables were not paid for the work. There is no regulation bearing on this subject.

  Estates Commissioners: Correspondence.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that a landlord is frequently allowed to read and profit by correspondence between his tenants and the Estates Commissioners with reference to a proposed sale; will the Commissioners allow tenants, evicted tenants, or other persons having rights under the Land Act of 1903, or their legal or parliamentary representative, to read a landlord's letter affecting them; and, far example, will they allow a reacting of "Colonel Smythe's letter, refusing to sell, for the use of the evicted families, two evicted farms though untenanted
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they exercise their discretion in each particular ease as to the use they make of correspondence which they may receive from landlord
  1350
  or tenant or otherwise. That discretion is not exercised in such a way as to give advantage to either party. The Commissioners do not consider that any good purpose would be served by communicating the reasons stated by Colonel Smythe for not selling the lands referred to in the Question.

  Ballinamore Eviction.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the eviction of Patrick McLoughlin by Mr. James Birney from his shop and premises in Ballinamore on June 25th; will he say whether the sheriff was assisted by police on the occasion, and, if so, how many; did the police actually search the various rooms and out offices; is this bailiff's work done by the police with the knowledge or authority of the Government, and was it part of their duty to re-search the premises after the sheriff had departed, having given possession to Mr. Birney; will he say whether, late in the evening of the same day, a gentleman, who had been on the premises during the whole proceedings, walked out by the front door, and can the police explain how this oversight occurred; and will possession be re-given by the sheriff.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the police authorities that on the occasion mentioned two policemen, namely, a head constable and a sergeant, accompanied the sub-sheriff at his request for the purpose of protecting him in the execution of the writ of ejectment. The police did not themselves search the premises, but they accompanied the sub-sheriff while he was doing so. It is the duty of the police to afford full protection to the sheriff. After the eviction the sergeant remained at the door of the premises until a crowd had dispersed, and while there a man who had been unobserved by the sheriff came out of the House. The question whether legal possession was given up to the plaintiff by the sheriff is not one in which the police are concerned.

  Irish Emigration.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has seen the Return of Emigrants, natives of

  1351
  Ireland, for the month of June, 1906, and the six months ending 30th June, 1906, showing respectively that 2,567 and 21,612 emigrants left the ports of Ireland; can he say how many of these men, women, and children have left their native country never to return; and is he aware of any other country similarly circumstanced whose people leave her shores in such numbers in proportion to population and birth rate; and will this matter, in view of the oft expressed inability of the Government to deal with it, be submitted in any form to the Colonial Conference to sit in 1907.
  MR. BRYCE: The figures are as stated in the first part of the Question. The emigrants included in these Returns consist of persons who are understood to be leaving the country with the intention of permanently settling elsewhere. The rate of emigration from Ireland, though still regrettably high, has of late years shown a slight tendency to decrease. During the past ten years the average annual rate of emigration was 8·5 per 1,000 of the population; last year it was 7·0 per 1,000. There is every reason to hope that emigration will be checked still further by ameliorative measures for the relief of congestion and otherwise. I do not think the matter is one which could with advantage be submitted to a Colonial Conference. The percentage of emigration from Ireland to the colonies is small.

  Bann Drainage.
  MR. LONSDALE: On behalf of the right hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can give any information with regard to the Bann drainage.
  MR. BRYCE: The Irish Government have thought it desirable to obtain the views upon Sir Alexander Binnie's scheme of a number of authorities and persons locally interested. Replies have been received from the majority of these, and are now under consideration. A valuation of the lands which would be beneficially affected by a drainage scheme has also been ordered. A number of details require consideration before action can be taken. The matter will continue to engage the close attention of
  1352
  the Government, who are fully sensible of its importance.

  Mr. Patrick Haire's Valuations.
  MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that Mr. Patrick Haire valued land in connection with the Labourers (Ireland) Acts in the Borrisoknne Union, in the county of Tipperary, and made awards on seven labourers' plots exceeding all previous awards in that union, ranging from thirty-two to thirty-eight years' purchase; for three statute acres he awarded £98, for one statute acre £30 15s., and for one rood and thirty-five-perches £18 15s.; whether, considering that the highest rent that was paid for any of this land was £1 per Irish acre, he will say on what ground such an award was made; what are the qualifications of Mr. Haire as a land valuer; and who appointed him to the office.
  MR. HOGAN: I beg also to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Patrick Haire, arbitrator of the Local Government Board, when making awards as to the value of the plots of land in the Borrisokane Union in connection with the Labourers (Ireland) Acts, called for no sworn evidence in connection with the same, and for the two days he was engaged valuing the plots his expenses were £15 15s.: whether, as dissatisfaction exists amongst the ratepayers with regard to his valuation of the plots and the amount of his expenses, he will take steps to see that an arbitrator with a greater knowledge of land revalues these plots; and whether he will say in what way his expenses were made up, and whether they were sanctioned by the Local Government Board.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed that Mr. Robert Haire recently valued land required for the purposes of the Labourers Acts in the Borrisokane Union, but it is incorrect to say that his awards on seven plots ranged from thirty-two to thirty-eight years' purchase. It would not be possible within the limits of an Answer to-deal in detail with Mr. Haire's different awards and the reasons for them, but I will forward to the hon. Member the observations of the Local Government.

  1353
  Board in the matter. Mr. Haire is a Member of the Institute of Civil Engineers, England, and served for a considerable period under the Commissioners of public works. He has had much experience as an arbitrator and has acted in that capacity under the Labourers Acts on several occasions since 1898, and has discharged the duties in a satisfactory manner. He was selected for the post by the Local Government Board. It is the fact that Mr. Haire did not deem it necessary to examine the parties on oath. His fee is the usual one of £3 3s. a day, and the time occupied by his inspections inquiry, correspondence, and making the award in duplicate, was four and one-third days. His expenses in all amounted to £18 11s., of which his fee was £13 13s., and the balance was travelling and other expenses. The arbitrator's account has not yet been passed by the Local Government Board. There is no power to direct a re-valuation.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: Is this valuer a permanent official?
  MR. BRYCE: I rather gather not.

  Cavan County Evicted Tenants.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state how many inspectors have visited county Cavan from the Estates and Land Commission with a view of bringing about the restoration of the evicted tenants in that county; how many cases have been dealt with for the six months ending 30th June 1900; how many evicted tenants have been restored to their old homes and how many have been supplied with new farms; and can he say in how many cases the evicted farms are on the landlords' hands.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that two of their inspectors have visited county Cavan for the purpose of making inquiries as to evicted tenants. Twenty-two applications have been referred to these inspectors for inquiry within the last six months, and are being dealt with by them. The Commissioners have received information that nineteen evicted tenants have been reinstated in this county since the passing of the Act; eighteen of those appear to
  1354
  have been restored to their former holdings and one placed, in another holding. According to the applications which have been received, fifty-two evicted holdings in this county are in the landlords' hands.

  Irish Experimental Farms.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, as representing the Department of Agriculture, whether reports and statements of accounts showing the profit or loss in connection with their experimental farms in county Cork and elsewhere were published by the Department; and, if not, whether he will furnish hon. Members of this House with copies of such accounts.
  MR. BRYCE: The Department of Agriculture do not keep accounts showing, the profit and loss in connection with their experimental farms. These farms are not conducted upon ordinary commercial lines. They were established for the education and training in educational work of the pupils who attend for instruction.
  MR. LUNDON: As this Department is supported out of Irish funds they ought to keep proper accounts.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, as representing the Department of Agriculture, whether the Department, before commencing to subsidise the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, received any statements of how this society proposed to expend the money; and, in view of the fact that the Department has continued to subsidise this society for a considerable time, whether he will state if Reports or Statements have been furnished to the Department of how the money granted was spent; and whether copies of all such Reports will be laid upon the Table of the House.
  MR. BRYCE: I beg to refer to the full replies which I gave to Questions on this subject put by the hon. Member for East Mayo on May 21st† and 29th.‡ No
  † See(4)debates,civii.,902.
  ‡ See(4)debates,civii.,257.

  1355
  subsidies were granted by the Department to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society prior to February, 1905. Payments made to the society before that date were recoupments in respect of work already done for the Department. The grant of £2,000 for the year ending February 28th, 1906 was decided upon an respect of certain specific work of organisation to be done for the Department, the particulars of which were embodied in a scheme; and, as already stated, this sum was paid in monthly instalments, upon the certificate of the Department's representative that the work in question had been done. A similar course has been taken in respect of the grant of £3,700 for the current year. The Answer to the concluding part of the Question is in the negative.

  Lunacy (Ireland) Bill.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (on behalf of the hon. Member for East Wicklow): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he intends to proceed any further with the Lunacy (Ireland) Bill during this part of the session; and, if so, when he proposes to move its Second Heading.
  MR. BRYCE: It is intended to proceed with this Bill, but I cannot yet say when an opportunity for moving the Second Heading will arise.

  Coolkill Evicted Tenant.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will say if an application for reinstatement has been received by the Estates Commissioners from Mrs. Mary Coyle, whose husband, Hugh Coyle, deceased, was evicted from his farm in Toneylion and Coolkill, for non - payment of rent, by his landlord, Mr. John Fay, of Moynehall, county Cavan, in 1886; will he say whether this evicted farm is in the landlord's hands since; and what steps the Commissioners are taking to restore the evicted tenant to her old home.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners have received from Mrs. Coyle an application for reinstatement in her former holding which is stated to be in the landlord's hands. The application has been referred to an inspector for inquiry.

  Irish Railway Inquiry.
  MR. HUGH LAW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has now decided upon the form which the proposed inquiry into Irish railways is to take; and whether he has considered the advisability of referring the consideration of the Irish canal system to this body, rather than to the Commission already appointed by the Board of Trade, in order that the question of transit in Ireland may be dealt with as a whole.
  MR. BRYCE: The terms of reference to the Commission on Irish railways have already been published and the hon. Member has probably seen them. The question of referring the consideration of the Irish canal system to this Commission was fully considered, and although there might have been some advantages in taking the course suggested in the Question, the balance of arguments was distinctly in favour of allowing the canal inquiry already instituted to proceed, and committing the railway inquiry to a separate specially qualified body.
  MR. HUGH LAW: Will the Railway Commission have an opportunity of considering the whole question in its relation to canals?
  MR. BRYCE: Yes, Sir.

  Tinahely Post Office—Medical Officer.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if Dr. John Bolster, ex-medical officer of the Tinahely, county Wicklow, district, has been appointed medical attendant to the officials at the Post Office, Tinahely; whether he is aware that Dr. Bolster was charged with gross neglect of duty by the board of guardians; that two official inquiries were held by a Local Government Board inspector into the charges made by the guardians; that, as the result of these inquiries, Dr. Bolster resigned his position as medical officer of the Tinahely district; that Dr. Bolster was dismissed by the Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway from his position as medical attendant upon the employees of that company; and whether he has sanctioned, or intends to sanction, the appointment of Dr. Bolster as medical officer of the Tinahely Post Office employees.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): Dr. John Bolster, medical officer to the Post Office Officials at Tinahely, was appointed early in the year. I had then no knowledge of the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member; but I am inquiring into the matter.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: Will the right hon. Gentleman address his inquiries to the Board of Guardians in whose employment this doctor was for some years?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Naturally they are the people of whom to inquire.

  Responsible Government for South African Colonies.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether there are any precedents for the grant of responsible government to a Colony by Letters Patent; if there are any precedents for such a procedure for such an object, what opportunities were then given to Parliament for discussion; and at what stage of the question; if there are no precedents, what opportunities does His Majesty's Government propose to afford to Parliament for the consideration of so important a change.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): The nearest precedent is that of Newfoundland, particulars of which will be found in Return 142 of 1905. In that case the only discussion in this House took place on March 20th, 1855, on the Motion for adjournment. The Letters Patent cannot be discussed in detail until they are laid on the Table of the House; and they cannot be so laid before the House re-assembles in October. But His Majesty's Government anticipate that they will be in a position to make a statement on the subject of the Constitution before the House rises.
  MR. LYTTELTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a pledge that the principle of these matters shall be discussed on the Colonial Vote?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: That is what I refer to; that is the
  1358
  occasion on which I hope we shall be in a position to make a statement.
  MR. LYTTELTON: The right hon. Gentleman does not appear to appreciate my Question. I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say it is anticipated that that will be the case; the Question I ask him is whether he will give a positive pledge that such will be the case.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No, Sir, I decline to give any pledge. I have no doubt in my own mind that it will be so, but I cannot pledge myself because I do not know. We have not yet received the Report of the Committee; it will not be in our hands till the end of this week. Altogether, it is possible; I hope that no unseen impediment will arise, but I cannot pledge myself.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERAre we to understand that the Letters Patent will not be issued until the sitting of Parliament in October?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No, they will be issued when they are ready.
  MR. LYTTELTON: Are we to understand that the grant and the terms of this Constitution to the Transvaal and Orange River Colony may be irrevocable before any discussion has taken place in this House?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No, not at all. That is to say, I trust that a statement, as I have said, of the principles on which the Letters Patent will be founded will be made before the House rises, and then the House will have an opportunity of expressing its opinion.

  Imperial Preference—Resolution of the Chambers of Commerce of the Empire.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the resolution in favour of a system of Imperial preference which was passed, by a majority of three to one, at the mooting of the Congress of Chambers of Commerce of the Empire on Wednesday last; and whether, in the event of this question being brought before the Colonial Conference of next

  1359
  year, the representatives of the Government will be permitted to consider it with an open mind.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The views of the Government upon this matter have been frequently stated, are well-known, and are not likely to change. Of course any proposals that may be put forward by the representatives of the Colonies at the Conference will receive respectful consideration.

  Weights and Measures and Currency.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the resolution passed unanimously by the Chambers of Commerce of the Empire at their recent congress, recommending that a Royal Commission should be appointed by His Majesty's Government to investigate and, if possible, recommend uniform systems of weights and measures and currency to be adopted throughout the British Empire; and whether His Majesty's Government will take action in accordance with this recommendation.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: His Majesty's Government have not had time to consider the evidence on which the Chambers of Commerce adopted the resolution referred to, and they are not prepared at present to make any statement on the subject.

  Parliamentary Speeches.
  SIR CARNE RASCH: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that three hon. Members spoke continuously for four hours and thirty-five minutes on Thursday, leaving two hours and twenty-five minutes for 666 Members; and if he will consider the circumstance in framing his Rules of Procedure.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think we cannot complete a new scheme of Rules of Procedure without dealing with the question of the length of speeches. But an hon. Member may take more than his share of the time of the House quite as well by frequent speeches as by long speeches, and I hope the hon. and gallant Member does not mean to imply, although his Question might be read in that sense, that the rules should provide for all the 670 Members speaking on the same subject.

  TREATMENT OF ZULU WOUNDED.
  MR. LEHMANN: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he can give the House any official information which will relieve the anxiety caused by reports of the refusal of quarter to the Zulus in the operations in Natal, and their slaughter by native levies.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have been greatly shocked, as everyone must have been, by this report, which I have only heard of. I have not seen it myself, as the paper in which it appeared is not one which I habitually study. We have no official information on the subject at all, but I sincerely hope that there is no foundation for the rumour—and I should not be much surprised to learn there is not. At any rate, I feel it necessary to say that if there is any foundation for it, it is a most grave and serious matter, requiring the closest and I most earnest attention of the Government.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: May I ask whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman has been directed to a report in nearly all the newspapers to the effect that the head of the late chief, Bambata, was severed from the body and was publicly exposed for two days by order, and whether, if the report of this occurrence should prove to be true, he will take stops to see that such shocking barbarity is not in future permitted?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have not seen that report. I have nothing but horror for the event, if it has taken place.
  MR. DALZIEL: Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's Answers that the Government are going to make telegraphic inquiries as to the truth of the reports?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: We have already done so.

NEW BILLS.

  DEANERY OF MANCHESTER BILL.
  " To make further provision with respect to the Revenues of the Deanery

  1361
  of Manchester," presented by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 309.]

  ECCLESIASTICAL DISORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  " To provide for the better enforcement of the Laws relating to public worship and to deal with Ecclesiastical Disorders in the Church of England," presented by Sir George Kekewich; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 310.]

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  Clause 35:—
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLin moving the omission of subsection (a), said that while as a matter of fact he did not wish the subsection to be omitted, he did desire to raise this question of the use of the school buildings during holidays. The point was not so much what was desirable but what was possible of accomplishment as a matter of administration. The midsummer holiday would be mainly affected by this provision, and it was desirable that in that period the schools should be closed for the purpose of cleaning. He was not quite sure it would be in the interests of education to use them as suggested. He was greatly struck by a remark made by Archbishop Temple in the summer before his lamented death. When distributing prizes at his old school at Tiverton he advised the boys to shut up their books during the whole summer holidays and to spend their time in seeing as much as they could and in observing objects around them. Such advice was equally good for children and teachers; all school children required recreation and change in the mode of thought; so too did the teachers, and he was once told by a very experienced teacher that it was good neither for masters nor boys for them to be always together. Those who were engaged on the Committee which considered the question of
  1362
  feeding the children had had before them the question of the attendance of the masters during the times the children were supplied with food, and they thought the willingness of the masters to undertake the task was not a sufficient justification for exacting that duty from them. They discouraged it on the ground of health and the usefulness of the school. If that was true with regard to the meal hours in the school, there was also some truth in it as regarded other occupations during the holidays. Another thing of great importance was that the masters should have some time that they could really call their own. They required recreation and amusement almost as much as Members of Parliament, and as an old Member he might be permitted to say they deserved it quite as much. The constant pressure and striving was, he was sure, injurious to the teachers from the point of view of health, and in other regards inasmuch as it prevented them acquiring information. When detained in school day by day and week by week they had no opportunity of acquiring information beyond the school and the district, which it was important that teachers should possess. Their inclinations should be made more wide and their opportunities to acquire knowledge of the world around them more extensive. He therefore thought it was injurious to the teachers to have this new task imposed upon them. There was also a domestic reason. They should not be deprived of their family life. They should not be prevented from seeking with their families recreation and the means of gaining health as they would be if detained within the bounds of the school. He thought these reasons were of sufficient importance to weigh with the Committee in their dealing with this matter. He presumed the intention of the Government in introducing the clause was that there should be some provision either by by-law or by other means for the securing of good order. During the holidays there was a period of freedom and sometimes of neglect. It appeared to him that if the clause became part of the Act there ought to be some provision to compel good order without mischief arising. There were, no doubt, more opportunities given in these, classes for extended visits on the part of the children and for their gaining

  1363
  wider information, and on that ground he welcomed the clause, provided it was properly self-guarded. Another point that ought to be borne in mind was that of parental responsibility. Parents ought to feel their responsibilities for the children during the holidays, and he believed the country would lose rather than gain if in a provision of this kind they weakened that responsibility which was as important to the parent as to the child and which was certainly of enormous value in building up society and producing that sympathy and loving kindness which ought to exist between parent and child. He did not care at the moment to make suggestions as to the nature of the teaching to be given in these classes. His reason for rising was really to ask for further information on the subject. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 3, to leave out subsection '(a).' "—(Sir Francis Powell.)
  Question proposed, "That subsection (a), down to the words 'holidays; and,' stand part of the clause."
  MR. ASHLEYsupported the Amendment not so much because he objected to the subsection as that he objected to the vagueness of the terms in which it was drawn. He thought the criticism of the Education Committee of the Lancashire County Council was very much to the point. They said that the powers given under this clause appeared to be very wide and should be more closely defined. That, he thought, was a fair and honest statement. He did not quarrel with the powers given under subsection " (a)" but with the fact that in that subsection the same power was not given to the Board of Education as was given in subsection "(b)." "With regard to the provision for recreation in the schoolhouses during the holidays, the children would, he thought, much prefer the power of recreation in the school-yards, but he might be told that that was included in the term " schoolhouses." If the provision meant that the local education authorities should have the power of providing the children with football or cricket in the playgrounds during the holidays, he heartily supported the clause as being
  1364
  one that would keep the children out of the streets and take care of them generally. But how much further did the clause go, because it was very widely drawn? As he read the new Clause 26 all the powers of Clause 35 could be handed over by the local education authority to a minor education authority, and although no doubt the majority of such authorities would use their powers well and with credit to themselves and the local education authority, yet there-might be some whose hearts were stronger than their heads, who might go beyond what was intended by the clause. "When school boards were first started everybody agreed that the rate would never exceed threepence ["No]." That he believed was the general impression. Now in many cases the rate went into shillings, and he thought they ought to have some statement as to how far these powers were to go. He agreed that the attendance at the vacation schools was voluntary for both teachers and children, but the Committee ought to know what was to be permitted to be taught. So far as he could see there was no limit. There was nothing in the clause to prevent even the teaching of denominational religion in the vacation schools at the public expense. The teachers also, he presumed, would be the ordinary teachers of the school, both for the sake of economy, and because they knew the children, and because the local education authority knew them to be well qualified to give the instruction. They were not under the clause compelled to give the instruction, but as the Parliamentary Secretary stated the other day in another connection, although they could not be compelled to give it, they could be discharged if they did not. He thought the Committee was entitled to some further explanation with regard to this important matter.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,)said he was glad to find there was no real opposition either from the hon. Baronet who moved, or the hon. Gentleman who supported the Amendment. All they desired was that the clause should express in a more precise form the limitations and the character of the vacation schools, and the teaching that could be afforded. He was not in a

  1365
  position, and he hoped he never would be called upon, to make a syllabus of games, but there was an evident desire on the part of many local authorities and of a great many people deeply interested in education in our large towns to organise games, and he need not say that he himself attached great importance to the movement. It. might be that the children of the well-to-do classes in our public schools had of late years attached too much importance to athleticism. But because they got too much, it was no reason why the children of the poorer classes should got none; and the idea that children could be turned out to play games without any instruction or organisation was absurd. There was a great desire that children should be instructed in the ethics of the playground; but it would not be wise to attempt any exact definition of what was to be done. The children were there, and the desire to play was born with them. All that was required was that they should have the opportunity and the necessary amount of instruction in the rules which were so essential if games were to be carried on in the proper spirit and the children were to learn the invaluable lessons of organised play. Though the language of the clause was purposely wide, there was no reason to anticipate any such evil consequences as an attempt on the part of the local authorities to use these schools for purposes outside their proper scope. The term "school-house" included the playground. It was melancholy to see these playgrounds standing empty when they might be filled with playing children. Those who asked what was meant by a vacation school had bettor go and see one, such as that in which Mrs. Humphry Ward had interested herself. The visitor would be struck by the amazing cleverness of the children—the marvellous ability they displayed for all kinds of exercises demanding manual dexterity, and the readiness with which they learnt to do these things together. They were taught to draw and to dance— one of the most pleasing of social accomplishments. If he were asked what the London ratepayers had got for their money, he would point to the acquirement by children of the charming and graceful accomplishment of dancing—even if it were only round a barrel organ. In these schools children were taught weav-
  1366
  ing, basket-making, modelling and drawing, and even tiny children learnt to play nursery games with an enthusiasm and an affection one for the other which was most remarkable. Such occupations played a useful part in the education of the children, and fitted them for graver pursuits, besides enabling them to enjoy some of the gaiety of childhood. There was no necessity to enter into a detailed statement as to what was to be done. It would have to be done cautiously, and there was no danger of local authorities plunging into extravagance. In the interests of the children and of the country, the Committee might pass this provision with satisfaction, and in the hope that the powers might be more largely taken, advantage of.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that he, and he thought the Committee generally, sympathised with what the right hon. Gentleman had said. In the large towns there could be no doubt the elementary school holiday was not so much a holiday as it was in country schools or in the better classes of life. The children often missed during vacation the airy and comfortable schoolroom and the playground. Anyone who had seen a vacation school in a large town must be alive to the fact that it was a great boon to the children who attended it. He entirely agreed with the President of the Board of Education that it wanted a little instruction in order to play a game with satisfaction to all concerned, and that games under some-sort of supervision were much happier and wholesome than those without any. All he would suggest was that the clause needed something more in the nature of definition. Was it equally applicable to the town and the country? He should have thought that children in the country were really better left to their own resources. They were dealing with a great number of schools to be transferred from owners or trustees to local education authorities, and under these circumstances he thought the consent of the owners or trustees should be asked, though he had no doubt, it would be willingly given. Then, again, they had to bear in mind that the Minister for Education contemplated a very large measure of delegation, but were the minor authorities to have power to spend the ratepayers' money on vacation schools, possibly without sufficient inquiry

  1367
  beforehand as to whether they would be fully used and properly carried into effect? On all these points they needed something in the nature of definition, and, above all, that a local authority desiring to provide vacation schools should have to refer to the Board of Education for formal permission, so that there might be proper inquiry to see that the owners or trustees did not suffer under a hardship or that the ratepayers' money was not misspent.
  MR. BUTCHERsaid it was refreshing to hear the Minister for Education express the hope that some of the time, thought, and care expended on the playtime of the rich might also be spent on the playtime of the poor, and from that point of view he felt himself in very cordial sympathy with this clause. It was a question in which a good deal of practical experience had already been obtained, if not in this country, at least in America. The vacation school had been started there at first as a voluntary movement, but it was found that if it was to be carried on in a useful and permanent form it must be done under public control and by public funds. In New York he believed that over 80,000 children attended such vacation schools. In Chicago, after having Leon carried on for five years on the voluntary principle, the system had now become a matter of State interest and administration. In London experiments had been made at the Passmore Edwards (Settlement for four years. In 1902 the numbers attending were 600; last year they had increased to between 1,100 and 1,200. These boys and girls, but for the vacation classes, would have been simply thrown upon the streets. The cost of the experiment was small compared with the value of the result, the sum expended in 1905 being £270, of which by far the larger part went to the payment of teachers. It was in providing the teachers that the crux of the problem lay. They must not encroach upon the holidays of the regular staff of teachers, because of all people in the world teachers needed rest and recreation. This difficulty, however, ought not to interfere with the carrying out of the experiment; and various suggestions had been made to meet it. If the principle of the vacation school were applied to the whole of
  1368
  London it would be a very large affair. It was estimated that some 600,000 children would have to be provided for, distributed over 300 schools, and the cost would be about £60,000 a year. That I would be a heavy charge upon the rates, but he was inclined to think that the experiment might proceed gradually and the local authorities might be trusted to see, whether starting from small and cautious beginnings, they could not organise it on a larger and more general scale. The chief work hitherto done at the Passmore Edwards Settlement with the elder boys was woodwork and with the elder girls cookery. In Chicago the programme in future was limited to manual training for boys and various domestic arts for girls, with physical culture and science for all.
  LORD BALCARRESunderstood that this clause gave power to local education authorities to carry out many objects which he thought were desirable, but he would like to know what its effect would be upon previous sections in regard to transfers. Probably the right hon. Gentleman was right in saying that in matters of this kind it was unwise to attempt any definition or bother about details. That was the attitude taken on Clause 26, and that had since boon dropped. He wished to know if the local authorities could go to the trustees or owners, and say " We want your school for the whole of the vacation and the evenings and the whole of Saturdays." They had been told that the existing voluntary schools would only be required from 9 to 4, excluding Saturdays and Sundays. Supposing the trustee or owner did not come to an agreement, was it within the purview of the local education authority to take the matter before the Commission under Clause 8? Could this point be made a condition of the arrangement under Clause 2, and would the Commissioners under Clause 8 be able to deal with the matter? If that view was correct he presumed it would exclude agreements from the initial stages of the transfer. Clause 4 as amended provided that " no rent or payment can be made." Would that exclude any rent or payment for the use of the transferred schoolhouse on Saturdays, Sundays, or during vacations?
  MR. BIRRELLthought the noble Lord was under some misapprehension as to the effect of the clause. It had nothing whatever to do with the bargain which the local authorities might strike with the trustees for the use of the schools for the purposes of elementary education. They might come to any bargain they liked, but there was nothing in this clause which required them to do any more than come to terms for the purposes of public elementary education, and no more burdens would be placed upon them than were already provided for in the Bill. The noble Lord might rely upon it that the trustees would not be ousted from the use of their schools. In many transferred schools these provisions would never come into operation at all. Except by agreement there was nothing in the clause that could impose upon owners or trustees any greater obligation than would be the case if it was not in the Bill.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not see, after reading the clause, what the limited power was. They were not divided upon any point of policy, but it seemed to him that the local education authority would have power in vacation time to do what they pleased with the buildings now used as voluntary schools, and to use them on all days of the week and all hours of the day. That view might be wrong, but it seemed to him to be the natural interpretation.
  MR. BIRRELLdid not think that view was right, but he would undertake to look into the matter.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURmoved to insert in line 4 after the word " classes," the words " in other than bookwork." His view of these clashes was that they should be for play, or something near to it, namely, interesting manual instruction. He was a great believer in the educational value of games, and he was certain that games were more educational than a great many other things that were taught at considerable expense. He knew that his opinion was not universally held. He was convinced that
  1370
  unless they put in some limiting words the word " classes " taken by itself would suggest to a large number of people, not always the most highly educated, that what was wanted was to have a holiday task imposed, which was an abominable practice.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 4, after the word ' classes ' to insert the words ' in other than book work.'"—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. BIRRELLsaid he entirely agreed with the right hon. Gentleman as to the purpose in view. But the words he had suggested might prevent a child's reading " Hans Andersen's Fairy Tales," or little manuals to which reference might have to be made. He was aware what book work meant and he was a little frightened of it. Book work in university circles might have a technical meaning. He did not like absolutely to bar out books, but he would consider whether he could not introduce words which would carry out the laudable desire of the right hon. Gentleman and also his own, so that the clause might not be made to seem to impose a burden on the sometimes overburdened brains of the children.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he would not press the Amendment.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsuggested that what was proposed might be met by the omission of the word " classes " in sub-section (a). There were many delicate children in whose case it was not desirable to impose book work which might take the form of a holiday task.
  MR. HUNTsuggested that the children might be taught shooting during the vacation.
  MR. LUPTONsaid that a great poet had spoken of the
  " Delightful task ! to rear the tender thought,
  To teach the young idea how to shoot."
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. TREVELYANmoved an Amendment to enable the local education authority to provide "play centres " for children out of school

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  hours during term time. The clause as it stood gave the local education authority power to organise vacation schools, and means of recreation in the schoolhouses during the holidays, and what he now proposed was that they should be permitted to organise play centres in different parts of the great cities to which the children could go in the evenings after school hours. The main reason why he thought the Committee ought to encourage the organising of play centres during term time was in order to deal to some extent with one of the worst evils of slum life in our great cities. To enable hon. Members to make up their minds whether these centres would be of value, he would read what was said by Mrs. Humphrey Ward of one which was established in the district of Walworth—
  "The Warden of the Browning Settlement reports of Walworth; ' In this crowded district, the only playgrounds for the children after dark are the streets; and the damp and cold stairs and corridors of the tenement blocks, where they sit and play on the hard stone. The homes are as a rule much too small and crowded to allow any room for child sports there. Not infrequently the one room is filled all night with washing, which must be punctually delivered next morning. Anything more dispiriting and heart-sickening than the Walworth streets on winter nights, in fig or drizzling rain, with pavements and roads covered with fine adhesive and permeating mud, can scarcely be imagined; and the moral effect of what the child sees in the darkness need not be mentioned. And when it is remembered that most of the children are poorly shod, the dismal discomfort of what ought to be the brightest years in life is only too obvious."
  The Warden of that Settlement also described how the children were forced to go out from the rooms in which their parents lived to spend their evenings on the door-steps or in the streets, no matter what the weather might be. What had been done? An effort had been made to organise a certain number of schools to which the children might go between half-past five and half-past seven to play, in much the same way as the Minister for Education had described. Describing an experiment in play, Mrs. Humphrey Ward said—
  " Hand-work occupations, such as cooking— both for girls and boys—sewing, knitting, basket-work, carpentering, cobbling, clay-modelling, painting and drawing; dancing, especially combined with old English songs and nursery rhymes; musical drill and gymnastics; quiet games and singing games; acting; and a children's library of story-books
  1372
  and picture-books: these are the pleasures and occupations which the Settlement in Tavistock Place has for eight years offered to the children of the neighbouring schools from 5.30 to 6.30 or 6.45, five evenings in the week, and from 10 to 12.30 on Saturday mornings."
  He might remark with regard to the objection taken to dancing that when he visited Dartmouth Training College for cadets the other day, he found that twenty minutes were allowed for dancing every evening, and forty minutes on Saturday evening. All that the Amendment asked was that the local education authority should be permitted, if it pleased, to organise play centres throughout the great cities. Mrs. Humphrey Ward, who had done a great deal of work in this direction, calculated that if about 1,000 children were organised— 300 or 400 a night—the yearly expenditure would be about £200. A hundred play centres would thus affect 100,000 children, and cost £20,000 out of the £2,000,000 odd which made up the educational budget of London.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page20, line 4, after the word 'classes,' to insert the words ' play centres.' "—(Mr. Trevelyan.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. BIRRELLsaid the object of the Amendment was to organise play for the children by the grouping of schools. After all that was only carrying out the purpose they had in view, and he was willing to accept the Amendment.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLmoved to insert " or elsewhere " in subsection (a) in order to enable the local education authority to provide vacation schools, or means of recreation in places besides schoolhouses. His object in proposing the Amendment was simply that the benefit of the classes, or whatever might be provided, should not be confined to the schoolhouses. In Germany, and he thought in Belgium also, there were in many cases gymnasia in connection with the large schools, but children attending the smaller schools were sent to a common gymnasium. A great economy to the public purse was effected in this way. He hoped that the children would be taught swimming under

  1373
  proper superintendence in swimming baths.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 5, after the word " schoolhouses" to insert the words " or elsewhere."— (Sir Francis Powell.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. BIRRELLsaid he had no particular objection to these words. They might be useful, particularly in the case of transferred schools, where the use of the school promises could not be obtained out of the ordinary school hours. " Or elsewhere " were very wide words, and it had been suggested that a local authority might give the children a tour round the world. He had no particular objection to the words, and was ready to accept them with limitations, so that they should be construed as meaning that the recreation was to be carried within a reasonable distance of the school.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was not so much afraid of the geographical difficulty suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. He did not think that the children would be taken a tour round the world or even into the neighbouring towns. But he thought that the words which his hon. friend desired to introduce for providing at the expense of the rates, spaces for play away from the schools were not only too wide, but dangerous. At any rate it was too great a power to give to the local education authority without very careful consideration.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid that although he quite agreed with the general desire of the hon. Baronet he thought there might be dangers in carrying the Amendment as it stood. The local education authority should not be prevented from carrying out some such scheme as the hon. Baronet suggested.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLasked if the right hon. Gentleman proposed to bring up on Report words to give effect to his suggestion?
  MR. BIRRELL: On Report if I can.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid that the Amendment standing in his name was necessary not only to give effect to the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for the Elland division, but also to go a little further by vesting in the local education authority a discretion to extend the opportunities to other times than holidays.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 5, after the word ' holidays,' to insert the words ' or at such other times as the local education authority may prescribe.' " —(Sir James Woodhouse.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. BIRRELLsaid he thought these words might be accepted with perfect safety.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid that the trustees and owners of the voluntary schools taken over as public elementary schools were to have the use of them when they were not devoted to the purposes of elementary education. The Amendment of the hon. Baronet proposed, " or at such other times as the local education authority may prescribe." That carried the question a stage further than had already been provided for. Would it not infringe the rights of the owners or trustees of the school buildings?
  MR. REESsaid that the President of the Board of Education, in answer to a Question, had informed him that this clause referred to the ordinary school vacations only, and not to time other than school hours during term. If a wider interpretation was to be given the result would be to interfere with voluntary efforts and agencies which provide happy evenings for the children without any expense to the ratepayers. Reference had been made to such an agency managed by Mrs. Humphrey Ward, and there were others of longer standing which had accomplished very considerable work owing to the charity and personal devotions of subscribers, notably the Children's Happy Evenings Association, under the presidency of Lady Jersey. He feared that these admirable institutions could not continue to exist in the face of a law authorising public bodies to do as much, and more, at the expense of the ratepayer.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid that, there was nothing in the clause to over-ride the agreement between the owners or trustees and the local education authority. The question now was not whether the local education authority should be bound to provide such play centres and means of recreation. It was only a permission to the local education authority, and he was sure that if the local education authority found that these facilities were being given by voluntary associations they would not insist on putting the permissive clause into operation. He thought the clause would be improved by the insertion of the words.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the Amendment standing in his name would carry out what the right hon. Gentleman had promised. It only stated plainly that in the case of transferred schools, the use of the schools during holidays should only be with the consent of the trustees or owners. The use of those schools might be extremely important for other purposes by the trustees and owners, and if the section securing that were in the least obscured, as it was obvious that it might be from the way in which the matter was put by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, it would be unfortunate. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see fit to carry out the undertaking which he had given.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 5, after the word ' holidays,' to insert the words ' with the consent, in the case of transferred voluntary schools, of the owners or trustees of those schools.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. BIRRELLsaid that the only possible objection he had to the words of the Amendment was that they would involve an agreement being made in every case. He thought that an agreement should be made one for all. However, he quite accepted the spirit of the words of the hon. Baronet's Amendment, and he undertook to insert words to give effect to his intention on the Report stage.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that after that assurance he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. H. J. TENNANThad an Amendment on the Paper to move " In page 20, line 5, to leave out from 'holidays,' to end of clause, and insert—(b) It shall be the duty of every local education authority to make arrangements, in accordance with a scheme to be made by the Board of Education, for attending to the health and physical condition of the children educated in public elementary schools."
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member must move his Amendment in a slightly different form, but the effect would be exactly the same. He must move to omit from " holidays " down to the word " to " in line 6 with a view of inserting the words " The duty of every local education authority to make arrangements in accordance with a scheme."
  MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid he would move the Amendment in that form. As a Scotsman and as Member for a Scottish constituency he had hitherto not intervened in these debates, but upon this subject he asked the indulgence of the Committee for a few moments. The subject which he wished to bring before the Committee was that of compulsory medical inspection which did not, he explained, mean compulsory medical attendance. He had great confidence in his case. He believed the arguments in favour of medical inspection were overwhelming, and that the objections to it were illusory. His right hon. friend, by the introduction of this clause in the Bill, admitted it was desirable that there should be medical inspection; but he asserted it was not only desirable but essential. The Bill was an Education Bill; it provided for education, and he conceived that education presupposed health, mental and physical. Education in this country was compulsory and universal, and therefore the conditions upon which education depended ought to be compulsory and universal. We ought not to allow the local authorities to differ from the nation in a matter in regard to which the

  1377
  nation had already pronounced. Departmental and Inter-Departmental Committees had considered this subject and it had also been considered by a Royal Commission in Scotland. The Inter-Departmental Committee on Physical Deterioration at page 91 said—
  " The Committee are emphatic in recommending that a systematised medical inspection of children at school should be imposed us a public duty on every school authority."
  He would also like to quote the very interesting evidence of Dr. Leslie Mackenzie, Medical Member of the Local Government Board for Scotland, and a high authority upon this subject, given before the Royal Commission on Physical Training (Scotland) 1903. He said—
  " The large number of serious and minor diseases directly and indirectly affecting physical efficiency and mental efficiency constitutes an overwhelming case for a medical inspection of school children."
  And again—
  " No systematic exercise ought to be practised or enforced without a preliminary medical examination of the vital organs, to ensure that irreparable damage shall not result."
  If these inquiries were not sufficient to show the necessity for steps of this kind, he should like to draw the attention of the Committee to a fresh inquiry which had been made into the physical condition of children in Dundee. It was estimated that in that place 1,500 children suffered from affections of the heart, and such children required constant medical inspection. These children might be permanently injured by ordinary physical exercises. There were ailments which impaired general health, and made it difficult for children to profit by instruction, but defects of the ear and eye made it impossible. If the child did not hear, or see a blackboard, how was it possible for it to gain instruction? It was ascertained in Dundee that only 55·15 per cent, had normal hearing and nearly 7,000 had defective eyesight. Dr. Templeman, at the conclusion of the Inquiry of the Dundee Social Union 1905, said
  " I think that the result of the examination of the Dundee school children materially adds to the mass of evidence already accumulated showing the urgent necessity for the compulsory medical inspection of school children."
  The examination of the teeth was of great importance, because if the teeth were imperfect the digestion was impaired.
  1378
  One of the greatest causes of the rejection of recruits in the Army was defective teeth. Out of 69,500 recruits inspected 4,400 were rejected for this reason, or 63·26 per thousand. This was 10·29 in excess of those who were rejected for being " under chest measurement," the next highest cause of rejection. Of this number 192, or 2·76 per thousand were found to be unfit for service within three months of enlistment. It might be said that the Army did not furnish a standard, as in it they only dealt with the dregs and scum of the population. He resented such a phrase being applied to the Army, and he resented the existence of any class to which the ordinary standards of physical well-being could not be applied. In other countries, such as Germany, Switzerland and the United States of America, they found compulsory medical inspection. Were they going to ignore the experience of other countries and the advice of their own? It might be objected that local authorities would act in any case if left to themselves. Public-spirited local authorities would act with wisdom, no doubt, but some would not, and would be behindhand in this matter. Probably in the cases where the need for action was greatest there would be no action at all. No doubt he should be asked where the money was to come from, and the objection was their old friend the increase of the rates. The Physical Deterioration Committee said that " no large or expensive new staff would be necessary." In Boston, United States of America, the cost of providing medical inspection for the children worked out at 1s. for seven children, and in this country that would mean £35,000 a year on a basis of five million children, which, spread over the whole rateable value of England and Wales, would not be large, would in fact be very small. Supposing they established a small medical department of the Board of Education, it would not exceed £1,500 or £2,000, or at the outside £3,000 a year. The department need not be so large as that of the Local Government Board, whose work consisted largely in the eradication of diseases which had already disclosed themselves in an epidemic form. The duties of this Board, instead of dealing with matters which were past, would be of an anticipatory nature. If the course he advocated were adopted,

  1379
  he asked what would be the saving to the nation. What was the goal to which these children with stunted minds and crippled bodies were drifting? Their asylums, workhouses, and the ranks of the unemployed. Were they not full enough already? Were there not enough canditates? Were we to grease the wheels of the machinery for their further manufacture? Were our schools to be their recruiting stations? Were we to save on the child that we might spend on the pauper? Let us give this elementary right to the children, this elementary justice to the nation. It might be urged that we could not afford to do this thing. He asserted that we could not afford not to do it.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 5, to leave out from the word ' holidays' down to the word 'to' in line 6, ill order to insert ' (b) the duty of every local education authority to make arrangements, in accordance with a scheme to be made by the Board of Education, for attending to the health and physical condition of the children educated in public elementary schools.'"
  Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out down to the word ' to' in line 6, stand part of the clause."
  MR. MASTERMANwas sure that there could be nothing like a satisfactory settlement of the education question until we got medical inspection of our schools. We should not have another education Bill for some years, and unless this Amendment were agreed to, the children would for some years be deprived of this elementary right which was granted in Germany and many other countries in the world. His experience in connection with the Children's Country Holidays Fund enabled him to say that, if the House could get personal knowledge of the beneficial effects of medical inspection, it would be willing to vote the necessary funds to enable it to be carried out in the poorer districts. He did not think £35,000 would be sufficient, but one-tenth of the £1,000,000 new grant would be quite enough to establish a universal system. If the Government could not see their way to provide for a universal and compulsory system, he
  1380
  pressed them to encourage local authorities to undertake the work by offering on behalf of the National Exchequer to bear a considerable proportion of the cost. The Government report upon experiments in this direction was profoundly unsatisfactory. In only about eighty out of more than 300 local authorities had any attempt been made at all, and the attempts, even at the best, that had bun made in such questions as teeth and eyesight had no kind of relationship to the system carried on in Germany, where the body of the child from the moment it came into the school was made the subject of careful and yearly study, and where, in consequence, all manner of hidden diseases were discovered and treated, and the child was given a far better start in life than it would have without such a system of medical inspection. He pleaded for some central stimulus and inspiration and grant, and urged that parents and teachers would welcome the system, even if made compulsory. He believed the inauguration of such a system would be worth practically all the rest of the Bill put together.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he hoped the right hon. Gentleman in his desire to make this medical inspection a real and not an illusory thing, would remember that this Amendment was asked for by both sides of the House. The Minister for Education himself was in entire sympathy with it, but hesitated to make it compulsory. The right hon. Gentleman had throughout been sincere in his attempt to make this Bill carry out the original proposals of the Government. That he had not been able to do so was not entirely his fault. It was because the Government and the Party behind him had not permitted him to do so. But the Party behind him would permit him to make this subsection compulsory and the Opposition would support him. In a recent utterance he had stated that the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench represented public opinion. On this matter of medical inspection the Opposition were united with them in representing public opinion. If a plèbiscite were taken upon this Amendment to-morrow, a great majority would be found to support it. This country stood in rather a different position from our

  1381
  Colonies in this matter. In the Colonies there was no congestion and the question did not apply there. The poorer people were also better off. The congestion in the United States also was not so great, because there was more room for expansion, but even in the United States the value of medical inspection was shown by the fact that whereas a few years ago 64,294 children were excluded from the schools on account of contagious disease—a branch of the question with which the hon. Gentleman had not dealt—in 1905 the number excluded had decreased to 18,144. That proved that the medical inspection was effective, because it showed that year by year the number of children turned back from the schools on account of disease decreased. Some parents might object, although in the opinion of the hon. Member for West Ham and the hon. Member for North Camberwell they would not. At one time when an attendance officer was sent into the slums of our great cities he often had to take a police officer with him for protection. Now the slums had been cleared and the schools were filled by the children of parents who at one time would not allow an attendance officer to enter their district. If we applied the provision now under discussion to the slum districts of our great cities we should soon find a great change in the physical condition of the youth of the country. His hon. friends below the gangway desired the children to be fed at the public expense in the schools, but although he was not in favour of that he supported this proposal because it would lay the foundations of a healthy, natural life. If the Minister for Education would accept this proposition he believed he would have behind him the bulk of those hon. Members who sat on the Ministerial side of the House as well as those who sat in Opposition. Therefore, he urged that the sub-section should be made compulsory. Under the Public Health Act the local authorities were obliged to have a medical officer of health and it was quite probable that he would also be able to perform this work at no very great expense. There were about 6,000,000 children in the schools, and if the inspection cost one penny per child it would not amount to more than £25,000 a year But supposing it amounted to £50,000 or ,£75,000 he ventured to think that the majority of
  1382
  people would infinitely prefer that that sum should be spent in the interest of public health than upon any other purpose under this or any other Act, and he was sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be the last man in the world to resist an appeal of that kind for funds out of the Imperial Exchequer. If this inspection was made compulsory he honestly believed that it would have the same effect upon the health and lives of the children in the slums as was produced by enforcing compulsory attendance through the school attendance officers, and there would result a change in the social condition of the people scarcely calculable by those who knew nothing of the life of the poor.
  DR. MACNAMARAhoped the Minister for Education would respond to the appeal which had been made to him from the Opposition benches. As one who had spent many years of his life in daily touch with some of the poorest children of one of our great cities he wished to join in that appeal. If they could get this Amendment carried and medical inspection made compulsory, it would be worth all the rest of the Bill put together. The parents would not complain, and far from the teachers objecting he was sure they would be glad to associate themselves with the work. In regard to the condition of working class children, five-sixths of them were better off to-day than ever they were before. Ordinary school life had been greatly improved and parents had taken a pride in sending their children to school clean. The disciplinary results and the whole routine of school-going had generally improved the physique of the working classes. That applied to five-sixths of the children, but the other one sixth, numbering about 1,000,000 children, were never worse off. Day after day in East Bristol he used literally to shudder in contemplation of the fact that it was upon these ricketty shoulders that the burden of the Empire in time to come would have to rest. For this one-sixth of the children there ought to be a medical officer attached to the staff of every education authority, and every child on admission to the school should be medically examined and a record kept. A medical survey of this character would enable them to see what the result of

  1383
  school life was upon the child population. It was not too late to begin. The children in the schools in the slums of the East End and south-east of London should be in touch with the doctor every week or ten days. One-sixth at least of the poor children were almost hopeless, some with running eyes and ears full of matter, and not 1 per cent, of them had sound teeth. This matter of the teeth alone was one of the most important questions they could deal with. If the teeth were all rotten and bad they knew what followed. He would have every child examined on admission and afterwards from time to time, records being kept of their condition. The teachers did the best they could under the circumstances. He remembered one case when he was engaged with a class where a boy in the middle of the class said he could not see the blackboard, and he brought him closer to the blackboard. The result was that he damaged that boy's eyesight, I because as a matter of fact he ought to have sent the boy further away from the board instead of bringing him nearer. Had there been any system of medical survey he would have been advised what to do in the matter. In Brussels, one-tenth the size of London, there were sixteen doctors on the schools staff and they examined each child every ten days. In London they had only two doctors and twenty-three half-time doctors for this purpose. On the same scale as Brussels they ought to have at least 160 doctors permanently on the schools staff. This inspection in Brussels cost 10,000 francs, and in London it would not cost more than one-thirtieth of a penny in the £. If the ratepayers objected then they might get money from the Imperial Exchequer. He felt sure that the people would willingly spend the money necessary for this purpose if they were assured of good results. They ought to compel the local authorities to take the matter up, for it was a really pressing problem of much more importance than the things which the Minister for Education had been worried with during the last three months.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he agreed that this clause was worth more than all the rest of the Bill. He believed that this question of the medical inspection of the children lay at the root of all the questions relating to the physical condi-
  1384
  tion of the people, and it was a matter of national importance. There were certain ailments or defects often unheeded but needing attention, and this attention would at once be secured through inspection by medical men or nurses. To begin with there were ailments arising from uncleanly habits; he understood that the question was best dealt with by the employment of trained nurses. Then there was the question of eyesight, to which a great deal of attention was now being paid, and with the happiest results. A great deal more might be paid, particularly in rural districts, where medical inspection had not as yet found any official place. A more difficult matter, requiring much more time, skill, and attention, was that of deafness, because it was not easy to tell whether what seemed to be deafness arose from sounds being unfamiliar to the child. Then there was the important question of the condition of children's teeth, and in some cases inspection had already taken place. When at the Board of Education he was made aware of a retired dentist of a kindly disposition with professional enthusiasm enough to offer to inspect the teeth of all the children within his area if only the authority would place an arm-chair in every school in which to conduct the operations. But that sort of kindliness was rare, and dental investigations were a matter of time and expense. There were, however, other matters which need not take so much time, and yet would be of great value. Medical inspection might tell whether a child who appeared to be unfit to do the work required in the school was so unfit because it had come to the school hungry, or because it was backward or retarded by mal-nutrition from babyhood, or through improper treatment by ignorant parents, or whether it was physically or mentally deficient, and ought to be sent to a school for defective children. In that way they might clear the ground in some cases and assist the teacher by distinguishing the children who really ought not to be at a public elementary school at all. Then it was very important that children should not be put to physical exercises for which they were physically unfit. He mentioned these things as matters lying on the surface, and as showing the great importance which medical inspection would be to

  1385
  the health of the children, to the satisfactory conduct of the school, and to the nation generally. As to the difficulties that might arise, it was well to bear in mind what was the machinery already in existence. Every local education authority had power to appoint medical officers and nurses, and some had used this power with excellent results. Every urban or rural sanitary authority was bound to have a medical officer, and it would be no great extension of his duties if he were called upon to inspect the children in the elementary schools. Every county council might easily have a medical officer, but of course the difficulty, so far as he had endeavoured to work out the subject, would mainly arise in large rural areas where they would have to connect the medical sanitary officer of the rural sanitary authority with the general organisation of the county. So far as he could ascertain, that would not really be very difficult, though it might require considerable time and trouble in reorganisation. There were powers in existence, but there was no compulsion to exercise them. If it were said that parents might object to inspection, all he could say was that he could not ascertain a single case of a parent objecting where medical inspection had been adopted. He believed that inspection was gratefully accepted by the parent, although the directions which followed the inspection were not always pursued by the parent. There was the question of the time that the medical inspection would occupy, because time in these matters would mean money. He thought a system such as was suggested by the hon. Member for North Camberwell might be worked out, whereby every child on entering the school should be inspected by a medical officer. and again when it left the department in which it was first placed; that the medical officer should mark off such children as he desired to see again in the meantime, and at the same time desire the teacher to call his attention to any children who appeared to require medical atention. In that way they might get a fairly satisfactory system of inspection without requiring the medical officer to inspect every child at short intervals. But if this method was to be successful the teacher must possess some rudimentary medical knowledge, involving a knowledge of the ordinary symptoms of children's ailments. He would not by
  1386
  any means despair of that being accomplished under the existing system of training teachers. There remained the question of cost. The Departmental Committee which sat last year came to the conclusion that in an urban area the cost would not come to more than a rate of one-twelfth of a penny, and he thought there must be very few urban areas that would not pay that sum cheerfully in order to secure adequate medical inspection of the children. Personal inquiries he had made seemed to show that in urban areas the matter of organisation would not be difficult. In rural areas a great deal of re-organisation might be needed, involving more expense, but the difficulties, he thought, were by no means insuperable. All that remained was to require this medical inspection to be made, and he sincerely hoped that whether an addition was imposed on the rates or taxes, or a subvention from the Treasury was made to the local authority to assist them in the matter, the Government would take a friendly view of the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman. It was satisfactory to anyone who really cared for the education of the children that after the wearisome controversies of the last six weeks they had now come to some solid ground on which they felt they could all work together for the benefit, the happiness, and the health of the children.
  SIR W. J. COLLINSsaid that what was required was not so much compulsion upon the parents to submit their children to medical investigation, as compulsion upon some of the local education authorities who had been singularly backward in taking advantage of some of the powers they already possessed to appoint medical officers or to secure the assistance of their sanitary officers in connection with the school life of the children. In the Report of the Inter-departmental Committee of last year it was somewhat melancholy reading to find that so little was being done by county and borough authorities under the head of medical inspection. In the case of London, when the County Council took over the work of the late school board, there were two medical officers and six part-time oculists employed by the board. Since then twenty-three part-time medical men had been appointed,

  1387
  chiefly to investigate the diseases and defects of the senses which prevented full advantage being taken of education provided in the schools. Twelve nurses had been appointed, and the County Council had determined to increase that number to twenty. The question of anthropometrical survey might really wait until the future. At present what was urgently required related to the primary needs in relation to child life. Statistics with which he had been furnished showed that in some districts 7 per cent., and in other districts as many as 22 per cent, of the children had been found to have defective eyesight. He could quote many cases which had come under his own notice of children being punished for stupidity or dulness which might have been cured by a pair of spectacles or the removal of adenoid growths. With regard to the very primary matters of cleanliness, medical inspection might be invaluable, for in certain schools in which 119,000 children were examined no fewer than 44,000 were reported as being verminous. Ordinary simple remedies applied for a week or a fortnight would have been sufficient to remove that bane. As in the matter of the under-feeding of school children, so in this the State had made itself responsible in some degree by requiring that children between the ages of five and fourteen should go to a certain place to receive certain instruction for certain hours daily. He hoped that the effect of this clause might be to compel a larger number of local authorities to do their duty in this matter. Outside the Metropolis only forty-seven local authorities had done anything in the way of medical inspection, and he thought such supineness gave occasion for interference. He rather doubted whether it would be desirable to attempt to force medical investigation on every single child, but he hoped that in future the services of wise and tactful medical officers might be used for the benefit and the welfare of child life in schools, and that the schools might not continue in the future as they had sometimes been in the past, the means of propagating infection.
  SIR HENRY CRAIKsaid there was no part of school work more interesting and important than that which related to the physical condition of the children. The
  1388
  Department with which he was for many years connected first directed attention to it by instituting an inquiry into the physical condition of school children in 1901. In connection with that, an inspection was made of individual schools both in Aberdeen and in Edinburgh. Medical experts examined a large number of scholars, and although there were occasional objections on the part of parents, he was able to state that they were useful as showing how easily they could be got over, and how small in number they were as compared with the number of parents who not only permitted the inspection, but were grateful for the help thus given to them regard to the health of their children. The revelations which were brought out by the investigations of these experts were in themselves something that might give the Committee pause. They proved, if proof were required, how absolutely necessary it was that some such work as that contemplated by the Amendment should be carried out. He believed that the local authorities had already powers in their hands. What was wanted was that the right hon. Gentleman should introduce something in the Code which would make the carrying out of these powers, which were so necessary in connection with the health of the children, a condition of the payment of the Parliamentary grant. That was what he wished to see, and he urged the right hon. Gentleman, to introduce such a condition It was essential, if they were to learn how to train the children, that they must learn more about their bodies and their health. In the elementary schools far too much of the work had been spent in mere intellectual training, in book work and blackboard work. It was surprising during the investigations of the Commission on Physical Training to see the extraordinary contrast between the attention given to corporal training and to health in secondary and high class schools as compared with elementary schools. In the secondary schools, at least one-third of the time in the week was devoted to physical training, while in elementary schools the time given was about twenty minutes three times a week. If the children were to be properly equipped for the work of education, medical inspection must

  1389
  be carried out as part of the educational work of the schools.
  MR. THORNEsaid it was quite true that local authorities had already the power to appoint medical inspectors, but for the past seven years he and his colleagues on a town council of which he was a member had been hammering at the council trying to persuade them to appoint one or two medical officers for this purpose, but they had absolutely failed. The reason given was that the rates were so high that it was impossible to burden them further. In West Ham the rates amounted to 10s. 8d. in the £. A right hon. Gentleman on the front Opposition Bench had said that medical officers might spare the time to give some attention to this matter, but he thought medical officers had plenty to do already, He hoped the Minister for Education would not be timid about accepting this Amendment, because, as showing that public opinion, was behind it, he might mention that the principle had been unanimously approved at ten successive Trades Congresses. Therefore, he hoped that this all important Amendment would be accepted, and he was glad to think that at last the Committee was giving more attention to the bodies of the children and less to their souls.
  MR. ALDENhoped the Amendment would be accepted, though he admitted that the question of cost was a difficulty which they must face. They were now, however, spending a great deal of money on education to no purpose by attempting to teach children who were not physically fit to receive instruction, and a good deal of that waste might be prevented by a compulsory system of medical inspection. Let them begin by saving money in this respect if they had to spend it in other directions. He believed the Committee were practically unanimous on this point. He had had fifteen or sixteen years experience in the district of West Ham. He had seen a large number of children turned out of the board schools who were quite unprepared to make a living or to become effective members of society. The first remedy for that evil was the proper inspection of the children. The cost of that could
  1390
  be lessened in the manner suggested by the hon. Member for North Camberwell and the hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford University. They should begin by inspecting all the children as they entered school, and setting aside those most unfit, who should be thereafter regularly inspected. Then, he would suggest that they should have to assist the doctors some trained nurses who would be much less costly than doctors. In fact, the nurses, if properly and scientifically trained, were as good as, if not better, for the purpose with young children, than doctors themselves. He had seen that system in operation in the United States with the most beneficial effect, while it seriously reduced the cost of the inspection. He ventured to hope that the Minister for Education would take into account the speeches and able arguments adduced on both sides of the House, and, knowing quite well the great need there was for this medical inspection, that he would see his way to accept the Amendment, even if he had to modify it in some respects on the Report stage.
  MR. BRIDGEMANsaid that it had not been made quite clear whether the Amendment was intended to cover the cost of the treatment of the children as well as the inspection.
  MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid he thought he had made it clear that he did not intend to include treatment as well as inspection.
  MR. BRIDGEMANbelieved that there was some danger, by drafting the Amendment in too wide terms, of the local education authority being involved in the expense of the treatment of the children as well as the inspection. The Committee were practically unanimous that medical inspection was necessary, but not that inspection should carry with it after-treatment. He was not so sanguine of the results of medical inspection as some hon. Members, because nearly every one who had spoken in the debate had left out of account the early stages in the life of the children before they attended school. He believed

  1391
  he was right in saying that a large proportion of the ailments from which children suffered at school had been very much aggravated by the treatment which they had undergone before they went to school. It would be far more likely to bring about the result desired by hon. Members if it became necessary that every child by the time it was a year old should be medically inspected in its home. He was convinced that many children of the poor had ailments so fixed upon them at these tender years that it was far more difficult, if not impossible to remove them at a later time. He was not at all sure that this whole question was not of such great importance that it required to be treated separately from the question of education. He had no conception of what the views of the President of the Board of Education were on this subject, but he hoped that no one would go away with the idea that by merely medically inspecting the children in the schools that would accomplish all that so many hon. Members expected.
  MR. A. WILLIAMSONsaid he was Chairman of the Liverpool District Nursing Association, by whom this work of inspection and a tending to the children's health had been most successfully carried out by the Queen's Nurses, who were paid by the subscriptions of the public. Their object had been to get the Board of Education to give a grant to the Association in assistance of this work. The local education authority might pay for medical inspection but not for nursing. The local education authority valued the work of the nurses immensely, because it had improved the attendance and condition of the children. If the Amendment of his hon. friend were carried, half or two-thirds of the cost of inspection and nursing which would otherwise be borne by the nursing institutions of the country would have to be paid for by the local education authority. When they were dependent on purely school nurses the work would not he of the same quality as when nurses were employed who had district work as well, and who had had a scientific training for three years in a hospital. To employ medical men solely for inspec-
  1392
  tion was to increase the number of officials in connection with education, which he thought was undesirable. Another thing to be borne in mind was that it was desirable to follow up the children in their homes where the Queen's Nurses could attend to them.
  MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid it was not the intention of his Amendment that the medical men should follow up the cases to the children's homes; but it was quite possible that they or the nurses could follow up the cases.
  MR. A. WILLIAMSONsaid that in Liverpool they had twenty-two schools in which the children were nursed by Queen's Nurses, and last year 60,000 ailments were treated by them. The Nursing Association had said to the local education authority that they would undertake to nurse all the schools in Liverpool if they granted £40 a year for each nurse. By adopting the Amendment they would do away with all voluntary effort and get an inferior quality of nurses.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken was the only critic of the Amendment on either side of the House. There were occasions when the whole scope of expressed opinion seemed to be going in one direction, while other members-were silent for one reason or another. He hoped that that was not the case on the present occasion. It had been proved that immense benefit could have been done to the children of the present generation if some such scheme as was suggested by the hon. Gentleman had been adopted in former years. He did not feel confident to press on the Committee that side of the case; but the hon. Member for North-west Ham, who spoke from personal experience of what had occurred in certain elementary schools in which the system had been adopted, had told them of the most obvious and most marvellous advantages which had resulted from it to the children concerned. Very few hon. Members were able to correct or supplement that personal experience. At any rate from the hon. Gentleman's personal experience the result had been

  1393
  that the health of the children had visibly improved. The hon. Member for North St. Pancras, who spoke with very great authority on all these questions not only as an educationist but as one well acquainted with the working of our local authorities seemed to think they ought to approach this matter only from the practical side, and not to attempt to obtain any scientific basis for future conclusions as to the effect of our social system —educational, sanitary, housing—upon the fortunes of cur population. He associated himself with the hon. Member for North Camberwell in the statement that if we bad twenty-five or thirty years ago established some such method of investigation as was now proposed, we might have been able to build our conclusions on a more solid foundation. The problem of urban life was really the problem they had got to consider—it was not the country. He did not in the least desire to limit the benefit of the Amendment, but, after all, it was in the great towns that they wanted both the remedial changes which could be produced, and that basis of knowledge in which they were most lamentably and sadly deficient. They had been in the habit of making speeches about the effect of overcrowding and devoting themselves to the consideration of the deplorable influences which urban life had on our population. Let them now get at the real facts of the case. He was himself wholly sceptical about the idea that the next generation would be weaker than this, and the generation after that weaker still, and so down an in infinite process of retrogression. He did not believe it. The population of this country must more and more be an urban population. No man, how-ever much he believed in what was called " return to the land," sincerely believed that, if the population of this small island was really to increase to any large extent, more than a small fraction of the increase could be among the population engaged in agriculture. If they admitted that, as they must, the problem of the health of the town was really the complete problem they had to face. He did not believe the health of the town was worse than it was. It was incredible to suppose so
  1394
  when they considered what it was in past times. On what did they spend these huge sums for sanitary improvements? Why were our rates mounting up to 10s. in the £? Had it all been thrown away? Surely not. But of course the evil effects, such as they were, of urban life had enormously increased, although the conditions of our towns were healthier, simply because the proportion of our population in the cities had increased. This was not a digression, it was really pertinent to what was the most important problem before them. It led up to the conclusion that it was worth while for this House to spend money upon anything that would give them a really solid scientific data on which they could calculate the effects which modern urban conditions produced on the mass of our population. He therefore earnestly suggested that the Government should carry out this Amendment if they thought it practicable. He would desire not to restrict their attention merely to what he might call the medical aspect of the problem as it affected the children at the moment. Let them not be led away by the counsels of the hon. Member for North-west St. Pancras; let them rather take counsel from the hon. Member for North Camberwell, and other hon. Gentlemen, and accept compulsory medical examination, if not in this form, then in some other. Let them see that it was carried out on a general scientific plan, a plan applicable to the whole country, a plan which would enable them to compare area with area, children under one condition with children under another condition, and the children of one generation with the children of the next. When they had done that, and not till then, they should have some really solid scientific basis for what was now too often merely rhetoric and speculative conclusions about the effect of modern civilisation upon the health and progress of the race. The question was a very big one, and he did not speak of what might be the great practical difficulties in the way. The Government were now in the unhappy position of having to consider those practical difficulties, and if the right hon. Gentleman told him they were insuperable, he should accept his word. But he

  1395
  hoped they were not insuperable, and if they carried out this scheme, which was of first-rate importance, let it be done thoroughly and not merely in what he might call a philanthropic spirit.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid there was a time when a public elementary school was a place where the small children of the locality went for very limited purposes— to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic. People did not look beyond that, and that made the work of the Minister for Education, and also the burden of the ratepayers, comparatively light. Time was, thirty or thirty-five years ago, when these were the ideas that generally predominated, and that played a leading part in the debates which then took place in Parliament. But they now lived in another world, and ever since he had been at the Board of Education he had been pursued by deputations of learned men and zealous men and women, who looked upon schools as places where not merely reading, writing, and arithmetic were more or less badly taught, but as places where they were to consider the health, the future happiness, and what he might call the breed of the English-speaking race. Well, those were new ideas to the Board of Education, they were extensive ideas, and they sought to impose upon the Board of Education duties which he did not know that the Board was the best body to carry out. But so far as he felt that these were opportunities for benefiting the future generations of this country, he was eager to avail himself of every one of them, and he could assure the Committee that this was a part of his work in which any man in his place would naturally take the deepest possible interest. Therefore, everything that could be done he was anxious should be done to promote the health of the children. The question seemed to him to be divided under two heads. First, leaving out for the moment the question of population, what were the duties they would desire to see performed by the local education authorities, assuming that they were all alive to their duties, and were not, as they well might be, frightened by the heaviness of their rates? The duties were of a two-fold character. There was, first, the inspection, a medical inspection,
  1396
  of the child when it went to school. He did not know whether that was best taken at the infant stage or after completing that stage. But he entirely agreed that it was most desirable in the interests of true and accurate information, as to the people for whom they were labouring, to see what kind of people they were, and to compare one generation with another. He deeply regretted we were so behindhand in these matters. This medical inspection was also of very great value as indicating to the teachers what congenital weaknesses the children might have, in order that they might be treated properly in the class. They had heard a great deal about defective sight. He himself all his life had had to contend with that adversary. Certainly, he never in his life saw anything on the blackboard except, perhaps, the map of Africa; as to figures on the blackboard, he never saw one during his school career, which might account for many deficiencies. He had been condemned in the moment he was born to wear spectacles. Similarly ear and throat troubles were among the things which were easily detected at once by a very simple inspection by practised medical men. Every school ought to keep a precise register of the result of this inspection, which would not only serve a scientific and a national purpose, but would also be available for indicating what treatment children ought to receive while at school. The inspection need not necessarily be very expensive, although doctors, like all other professional men, required to be paid. They must bear in mind the possibility of the duties sometimes overlapping those of the officers of the Local Government Board. Reference had been made to the kind of work which might be done by nursing. There was some little red tape difficulty, he believed, as to how far a nurse could be considered to be an officer within the meaning of the Act, if she did not give her whole time. In large towns nurses were to be got from institutions. He was glad to think that in many country villages, owing to the generosity of country gentlemen, the nurse was also becoming a familiar figure. But in large towns nurses were to be obtained from institutions; and, if they were employed

  1397
  in connection with schools, it would not be necessary to engage their entire services. In cases of serious illness the nurses in Liverpool, who, his hon. friend had told them, had attended 60,000 children suffering from bad cuts, burns, and other things of that kind, were able to follow the children home and point out to the mothers the treatment that should be followed. These suggestions were always most thankfully received. But he thought they might disregard what they might call the malignant parent. Every schoolmaster was acquainted with the cantankerous parent who objected to his child receiving the ordinary treatment of the school. He thought they might very well disregard such parents in the matter of nursing also. In Liverpool, however, mothers welcomed the visits of the nurses, and were most anxious to learn from them how best to look after their children. But the question before them was whether they should make obligatory the duty on the local authority to provide for the medical inspection of children attending the schools. He confessed that in this matter he was in the hands of the House. The difficulty he saw was not so much in the way of securing that the particular duty should be carried out by particular medical men, but the obligation on the part of the Board of Education to compile schemes and impose them on the local education authorities. In this matter of medical inspection he was willing to submit to the judgment of the House that it should be made obligatory on every local authority to provide for the medical inspection of every child on application for admission to a public school and on such other occasions as the Board of Education might direct. The Board of Education was equally willing to receive inspiration from the House in the direction of strengthening its medical staff at headquarters for the purpose, not of carrying out the inspection of the schools—for that, of course, must be done by local doctors to be appointed by the local education authority—but of seeing that the local authorities were discharging the duties which they have at present power to discharge, and also to keep in touch with what was going on in Continental towns, from which, he admitted, we had much
  1398
  to learn. But what he was not prepared to accept was the further suggestion in the Amendment that the Board of Education should prepare generally, for town and country, schemes for the medical inspection of school children. The conditions of districts were so totally different and the physical circumstances of children varied so much that the preparation of general schemes would require an amount of consideration and care beyond the power on an already overworked Board. But apart from that he was quite willing to put down for the Report stage of the Bill an Amendment to the following effect—
  " It shall be the duty of every local authority to provide for the medical inspection of every child on its application for admission to a public elementary school, and on such other occasion as the Board of Education may direct or the local education authority may think fit."
  MR. H. J. TENNANTasked the right hon. Gentleman to continue the words after that to record and correlate the statistics.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid he took it it would naturally follow that each local authority would collect the same statistics.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he understood about the anthropometrical sphere. That was to be the data, but he wanted to point out that in the great urban centres it was most desirable to have a continuous inspection to be in continuous medical touch with the children in the schools. He wanted to make that point quite plain, and desired to know whether what the right hon. Gentleman had said would apply to the fact that it should be obligatory in the poorer schools to have the children continually examined by the medical officer.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid that was not in his mind at the time. It was not in his mind that there should be medical treatment.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Not treatment —inspection.
  MR. BIRRELL: But continuous inspection would necessarily mean treatment.
  DR. MACNAMARAdisagreed, and said if there were continuous medical inspection there were many agencies which might be brought into play to take over the treatment.
  MR. LAMBTONsaid this was a most important matter, and that while he was quite willing that there should be medical inspection in any schools in which he might be interested, he should very much object to medical treatment. In the case of adenoids, that was absolutely harmless, and many people might object to having their children treated for it.
  MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid he was particularly careful to guard against medical treatment—periodical medical inspection did not include treatment.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERpointed out that one medical inspection was not sufficient to be of any use; it must be periodical.
  MR. MASTERMANsaid he did not think the words suggested by the right hon. Gentleman carried out the desire of the Committee. Unless there were continuous inspection for cleanliness that inspection was of no use at all.
  MR. H. J. TENNANTsaid the Committee had had a most interesting debate, and he was very grateful to his right hon. friend the Minister for Education for the sympathetic attitude he had taken. They had struck a great blow for the children and for the race. He begged to ask the leave of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
  MR. ASHLEYmoved an Amendment to limit the expenditure which might be incurred under this subsection in any one year to an amount not exceeding that which would be produced by a rate of one penny in the pound. He agreed that it was necessary that as much attention as possible should be paid to the physical
  1400
  condition of the children, especially in our big towns. They might best consider what further power should be given to the local authorities by considering what had been done up to the present time. He understood that the local education authority had power to provide gymnasia and baths. Further, they had the obvious duty of preventing the spread of infectious disease from one child to another, and therefore they could medically inspect the child to see if it were suffering from infectious disease. The medical officers of the London County Council had the power to inspect children's eyesight, and the authority had endeavoured to bring pressure to bear upon the parents to supply spectacles for their children when necessary, although they had no legal power to compel the parents to do so. Children who went to school outrageously unwashed were refused admission, and parents were threatened with the law in order to compel them to look after their children. He desired to bear testimony to the good work that had been done by the London County Council in respect to improving the physical conditions of the children in London. He thought they on those benches who did not always agree with the policy of the London County Council must agree that their policy so far as the physical condition of the children of London was concerned ought to be supported in every way, and that the thanks of London ought to be given to the hon. Member for West St. Pancras for the leading part he had taken in helping forward this excellent work. They had to consider what extra powers should be given to the local education authority. Although it might seem a small matter, it was obviously right that the local education authority should be given power to purchase spectacles for the children, but he did not think it would be contended that it would require more than 5s. per child per annum to provide spectacles for each child that wanted them and for the medical inspection that the Committee had decided should very properly be carried out. The Amendment he now moved would not in any way hamper any legitimate work by the local education authority, but would prevent any tendency on the part of the authority to outrun the constable.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In clause 35, page 20, line 6, after the word ' arrangements,' to insert the words, ' not involving an expenditure in any one year exceeding the amount which would be produced by a rate of one penny in the pound.'"—(Mr. Ashley.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,)thought it would be contrary to principle in a matter of this kind where they had just imposed an obligation upon the local authority to put any limit upon their expenditure. At the same time there seemed to be no reason to apprehend that the expenditure under this clause would amount to anything like the limit suggested by the hon. Member. A penny rate all over England would amount to about £700,000, and no one could anticipate that medical inspection and other provisions likely to be made under this section would come to any sum of that kind. He thought it was unnecessary to put in a limit, and, moreover, it would be contrary to principle to make an obligation and then impose such a restriction as this. The Government could not accept the Amendment.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid perhaps his hon. friend would withdraw this Amendment. The difficulty could not be practicably dealt with by limiting the expenditure on the particular objects in this Bill, and the moment for supporting such a plan was not the happiest when they had just imposed an obligation upon the local authority. He thought that the end of legislation of this character would be that the taxpayer would have to come to the help of the ratepayer on a very large scale. That was a question they could perhaps debate more successfully on a future occasion.
  MR. ASHLEYasked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIB JOHN BRUNNERwished to tender to the
  1402
  Minister for Education his cordial congratulations upon being able to address the Committee in a time of total abstinence from bitter controversy. He would also venture to thank his right hon. friend for the spirit with which he had met the various proposals that had come befo e the Committee, and he was inclined to tell his right hon. friend it was a pity he did not take the country into his confidence at the beginning of the preparation of the Bill, because it might then have met the wishes of the House in far more complete measure. He proposed to move to insert words giving the local authority power to make by-laws subject to the approval of the Board of Education, to enforce the attendance of children at evening continuation schools or technical schools up to the age of seventeen years. If the Amendment were adopted the local education authority would have power to make by-laws, subject to the approval of the Board of Education, to enforce the attendance of children at evening continuation schools or technical schools up to the age of seventeen. One of the considerations of the utmost importance was the amount of hardship imposed upon the parents of the children who attended these schools. He was a member of a school attendance committee many years ago when they began imposing compulsion upon the parents to send their children to school, and it was found to be a hardship. In those days they were taking children away from the earning of money and compelling them to attend school. To day he was not imposing anything which would entail hardship upon any parent, because, after all, the attendance at these schools would be only for two or three evenings a week during the dark months of the year, or a maximum of 120 hours in the year, those hours being the least valuable in the way of earning money. Every one knew that a large amount of the work done at school was lost by the pupil a few years afterwards. He cited his own personal experience. Every boy who entered the service of Brunner, Mond, and Co., below the age of fourteen was bound to attend an evening continuation school up to the age of seventeen. Later the period had been extended to nineteen years, and that was the general rule now.

  1403
  With apprentices they went further, and said they must attend these schools until the age of twenty-one. The parents hid been called together and were consulted as to the adoption of compulsion, and he had the greatest pleasure in stating that not one parent out of many hundreds had a word of objection to offer as to the imposition of compulsion. One of the happy results of this system had been that large numbers of other boys and girls had come forward to submit to the system, so that the character of the population in the two neighbouring villages had been completely changed. His firm, moreover, were better served as the outcome of this educational method, and he thought that if the same rules were applied universally the same good effects would be forthcoming. If by adopting his proposal the Committee could bring about the same result in all the villages of the country it would be an extremely happy piece of work. The Amendment he proposed left it optional on the part of the local authority. He had not the courage to make the amendment obligatory on the authorities, but he wanted to make a beginning and to secure that the children should not forget what they had learnt in the schools. If his Amendment was not suitable to factory districts at least they might try what he proposed elsewhere, and perhaps the example set by other parts of the country and the benefits which followed would prove an inducement to the factory districts to shorten their hours of labour. He appealed to the Labour members to support his Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 6, to insert ' (b) Power to make by-laws, subject to the approval of the Board of Education, to enforce the attendance of children at evening continuation schools or technical schools up to the age of seventeen years.' "
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the Committee had listened with interest to the speech of the right hon. Baronet and with much of what he had said many hon. Members would agree. They were all aware that in many cases the benefits which the children derived from
  1404
  elementary education were entirely lost in after life, but he asked the Committee to pause before accepting the present proposal. There was a danger that they might interfere too much with the family life of the people if they transferred parental responsibility at every turn to the care of the State. His own experience of these institutions at Chester showed him that there was a great deal of keenness on the part of the scholars to learn just because they were enabled to satisfy their thirst to acquire knowledge voluntarily. That keenness of desire in the scholars re-acted very favourably on the teachers, for to them it was a change as from the treadmill to a delightful occupation when they were imparting the knowledge sought for and asked for by the scholars. But compulsion meant the formation of a plan and rigidity in the curriculum. One of the advantages in the work of continuation schools was its variety in the giving of a liberal education, and compulsion meant restricting the teaching within certain rigid limits. He therefore hoped that the Amendment would not be accepted.
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid that he had great admiration for the educational efforts of his right hon. friend, though he thought that his experience was being misapplied when he wished to make the system so successful of results in his own case universal. One of the effects to be looked at was the influence of such compulsion on employment, for the Amendment would enforce attendance on the part of the scholars. The child who was compelled to attend school was relieved from industrial work, but under the Amendment a young man, who had done his day's work would be compelled to attend evening classes in addition. That was not shortening the hours of labour. The Government could not accept the Amendment. Compulsion was a very ungracious and difficult task in the case of children under twelve years of age, but how much more difficult would it be in the case of boys and young women up to seventeen years of age The proposal would involve a very heavy addition of intellectual labour in the case of many, and, he dared say, in the case of most people. It would be hard if youngmen who had done their day's work it might be as clerks or in a severe form

  1405
  of manual labour, were to be compelled, irrespective of their condition, to receive education in the evening up to the age of seventeen. If public opinion strengthened on this matter, Parliament or the Government might be prepared to take further steps.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he fully sympathised with his right hon. friend. He agreed that the real weak place in our system was that we lost touch with the children at far too early an age, and that a great deal of the money we spent on education was put into a bag with holes in the bottom of it. The existing law permitted a child to go to work as a half-timer in the agricultural areas at eleven years of age, provided he made 250 attendances out of 400. The Amendment would compel a child then to go five years to a night school for the period set out. At twelve years of age a child might go as a half-timer in a factory, if he passed the legal standard for a half-timer, and at the same time he might go on full time if he had passed the full time standard and made the necessary attendances. Under the system proposed by the Amendment the children would have to go five years to a night school. At the age of fourteen, no matter what his qualification, a child was free from school. It should be remembered that this Amendment was rendered impossible largely by the reactionary Act of 1899, introduced by the Solicitor-General, under which a child engaged in field work might become a half-timer at the age of eleven.
  SIR W. ROBSONsaid that that Act added to the child's school life and to his opportunities of recreation. If it were reactionary, it was a pity there was not more reactionary legislation.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that the Amendment would be simply cruel in the present state of the law. It would be necessary, first, to shorten the hours of labour and raise the age of school exemption.
  SIR WILLTAM ANSONsupported the Amendment. The hon. Member for Month Camberwell had somewhat ex-
  1406
  aggerated his right hon. friend's proposal. He talked as though there was to be universal compulsion, and that the law would fall heavily on children from the time they left the day school. The proposal was that the local authority should have power to make by-laws requiring compulsory attendance, subject to the approval of the Board of Education. It rested with the local authority, having regard to the state of public opinion in its area, to make by-laws or not as it thought desirable. Everybody regretted the rapidity with which children forgot what they had learned after they left school, and everybody desired that their education should be prolonged, if only to make sure that they would retain what they had learned. There was another reason advanced by the advocates of evening classes—a moral, rather than an intellectual, reason, namely, that it was desirable for the youth of towns that some occupation should be provided to keep them off the streets, and give them something to learn which would interest and be of value to them. These were good reasons for pressing this matter on the attention of the Government. He did not agree with, the denunciations of the Solicitor-General and his Act of 1899 which they had heard from the hon. Member for Camberwell. He had always thought that it would be of great advantage if they could get the children on to the land sooner in the rural districts so far as that could be done consistently with the continuation of their education. He did not suppose anyone desired that children who were hard worked all day should be compelled to go to continuation classes, any more than that teachers who were possibly working at an ungracious task throughout the day, should be compelled to teach, whether they wished it or not, at evening classes. But if they could by some relaxation of school attendance in the rural areas impose a condition that attendance at evening continuation classes should be given later on, he believed they would do a great deal to keep children on the land by giving them an interest in rural pursuits at an early age and so counteract the prevailing wish to go off to the towns. The real difficulty was as to the age at which

  1407
  compulsion should cease, but he believed it was not beyond the wit of man to devise a scheme, and he thought it might be left to the local authority to consider whether the public opinion of the district justified compulsion.
  MR. T. P. RICHARDSsaid he opposed the Amendment simply because he did not think there was any proposal which met with more opposition from the working classes. This matter had been under consideration at Glasgow, and while the working-men wished that boys could be persuaded to attend evening schools after the age of thirteen or fourteen, they could not see their way to approve of the principle of compulsion. He agreed with the hon. Member for North Camberwell that those who were anxious for this principle at all should assist in raising the school age. He would prefer that the children should not be permitted to leave school under fifteen or sixteen years. That was the policy advocated by the working classes. He himself had to leave school at an early age, and he found that after getting to work he lost interest in the school. If evening schools were to be continued, attendance thereat should not be made compulsory, but boys and girls might be persuaded by parental encouragement to go to them. In that way more would be got out of them than by compulsion. He trusted that the Committee would not pass the Amendment.
  MR. MADDISONsaid that the right hon. Baronet who had moved the Amendment had probably done as much as any man in the House or country for education. His enthusiasm for education had taken the best of all forms, that of giving solid cash to advance it; but he was sure that the object which he had at heart would not be secured if the Amendment were passed. He himself had long thought that something would have to be done with regard to the larger development of evening schools, and that compulsion might eventually be necessary; but he thought the argument of the hon. Member for North Camberwell was unanswerable that this was not the
  1408
  time to do it. He agreed with the hon. Member for North Camberwell that if the Amendment became law it would paralyse the efforts of those who desired to lengthen the ordinary school life of the children, because they would be told that a child's education was going on in the evening schools. In the case of half-time boys and girls working in a weaving shed, spinning mill, or factory, as he understood the position, they already suffered by the half-time system, but they would be hereafter compelled to go to an evening continuation school. He did not hesitate to say that if he were a parent he would object to his boy having to make an enforced attendance at an evening continuation school after undergoing many hours of hard work. He hoped that his right hon. friend would not press the Amendment to a division, otherwise he would find himself in conflict with a large number of Members who were in sympathy with him, and supported him in his general education policy. They had heard something about the land. He did not know very much about the land; he was town bred. True, he wanted a large number of his fellow citizens to go back to the land because really he was not selfish; but personally he preferred to get his living, if not in public life, as a compositor in the city. Still, he could not for the life of him see that it was the business of the Education Department to keep little boys on the land. The land was an excellent thing, but the school was the place for children up to fourteen years of age at least instead of their being employed in hoeing turnips, or acting as scare-crows. He did not want any sort of idea to prevail that workmen would support any proposal which, however good it might be under proper conditions, would have the effect of preventing the lengthening of the school life of the children, which they believed to be one of the greatest blessings that could, be bestowed upon them.
  MR. HICKS-BEACHsaid that as an agricultural Member he believed that this was an Amendment that found very great favour in the country not only with the employers of

  1409
  labour, but also with the parents themselves; and for this reason, that in the agricultural districts children might be allowed to leave school in the summer months to earn a few shillings at work upon the land. The children enjoyed it; it benefited the parents; and the fanners liked it. It was found that when the children got beyond the age of twelve and thirteen years and were sent to work on the land, they were absolutely useless. [" Oh. oh,"] What they were being taught in the schools was useless to them for working on the land. [" Oh, oh."] That was true nevertheless. At the same time he quite agreed that something might be done during the winter, in evening classes, to give the boys instruction which would be invaluable to them all their lives. But there was the obvious difficulty that a child was not at his best for receiving education in evening classes after he had spent the best hours of the day working in the fields. It was the ambition of all hon. Members to do something to keep the people on the land, and therefore he favoured additional means of instruction for the children of peasants in the winter months, but it should not be made compulsory.
  SIR PHILIP MUNTZsaid that he sympathised very heartily with the suggestion of the right hon. baronet, but he must be excused for saying, as a man who had had considerable experience, that it might lead to an amount of friction which hon. Members could scarcely realise. It was most desirable, he agreed with the hon. Member for North Camberwell, to continue the education of the children as long and as far as they could, because if they left school at the age of fourteen by the time they had reached the age of eighteen they had forgotten all they had learned. It was desirable that boys should go on the land as early as possible, and it was his own experience that boys who went to work early in life became better artisans than those who went at the age of sixteen or seventeen. He ventured to say that in many employments at the present time the workmen were not as
  1410
  efficient as they were fifty years ago, because they did not go to work at an early age.
  MR. MADDISON: What does the hon. Member call " early "?
  SIR PHILIP MUNTZ: What is reasonable, either for artisans, or for agricultural labourers.
  MR. MADDISON: What is reasonable?
  SIR PHILIP MUNTZsaid the wanted these people to improve their minds on the land or in the workshop, but the difficulty was how it was to be done. He agreed with the hon. Member for North Camberwell that they could not enforce compulsory attendance at evening continuation schools, but they could make these schools attractive and persuade the young people to go there on their own initiative. He was in favour of the half-time system, but they could not expect boys who were employed on laborious work during the day to be compelled to attend evening schools.
  SIR PHILIP MAGNUSsaid he agreed with the right hon. Baronet's motive in bringing forward the Amendment, but as the Government were not disposed to accept it the Committee should not waste their time in giving reasons against it. Compulsory attendance at evening schools was not altogether an impossibility, as in parts of Germany, at all events, persons who left school at a certain age were compelled until they reached a higher age to attend evening schools. He thought the Amendment was objectionable on account of its vague character. The right hon. Baronet had not given any idea as regards the age at which compulsion would be necessary. If a person left school at sixteen years of age, it might not be necessary for him to attend evening classes, but if he left school at twelve it might be. Another matter which the Committee must bear in mind was that children who left school early, too often forgot what they had learned and were consequently unable to take advantage of the evening

  1411
  schools. That involved the loss of a great amount of money to the country. The pupils who were attracted to evening classes were rapidly increasing in number, and they belonged to the industrial classes. None were more responsible for this great improvement than manufacturers of the type of Messrs. Brunner and Mond, who encouraged young people in their works to attend those schools. He should deprecate the acceptance of the Amendment also for the reason that it would have the effect of preventing manufacturers from taking the deep interest in the education of the people employed in their works which they now evinced.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERthought that his action might be mistaken outside if he pressed his Amendment to a division, because he should appear to be in opposition to a great many Members whose objects were the same as his. He therefore asked for leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  MR. MASSIEmoved to insert a sub-section as follows, providing that the powers of the local education authority under Part III. of the Education Act, 1902, should include—
  " (a) Power to provide, in public elementary schools, instruction of scholars in day schools up to the end of the school year in which the scholar reaches the age of sixteen."
  He said the effect of the Amendment would be to raise by one year the age at which children had to be turned out of the public elementary schools Section 22 of the Act of 1902 fixed the age at between fifteen and sixteen That might mean fifteen plus one day, or sixteen minus one day, and the average worked out at fifteen years and a half. He proposed to raise the age to be between sixteen and seventeen, which in the same way would work out at an average of sixteen and a half years. It was true that the Government grants would not continue payable with regard to the instruction given to such scholars. For many years they had been payable up to eighteen years of age, up to which age they still continued payable in Scotland and Ireland; but the non-continuance of the Government grants should not prevent local authorities from re-
  1412
  ceiving these children and training them at their own expense if such a course was thought desirable. As it was now, not only did the Government grant cease at a point between fifteen and sixteen, but the local authorities were positively forbidden to continue to receive children beyond that age. The origin of this arbitrary exclusion was the well-known Cockerton judgment in 1901. The actual question of age was not raised in that case by those who were in effect crippling elementary education, and it was not even argued by their counsel. The judges themselves raised that question. Mr. Justice Kennedy said that elementary education was established for the welfare of children and not for adults. He did not say anything more definite than that, but Mr. Justice Wills was more definite, because he intimated that between sixteen and seventeen an age was reached which no one could call childhood. Why had the Government of the day gone one worse than the Judge and fixed the limit at from fifteen to sixteen? The Amendment which stood in his name was in accordance with the suggestion of Mr. Justice Wills, that the age should be between sixteen and seventeen. Of course they had been told that the secondary school was the proper place for a child between sixteen and seventeen. That might be all right in theory, though it seemed to him to depend very much upon how long the child could stay at the secondary school and it did not answer in practice. The number of children who were in a true sense fitted for a secondary school; was severely limited. That number might be gauged by the fact that all the local authorities in England taken together provided an aggregate of only 13,000 scholarships, and the number of children available for those scholarships was 2,400,000. After all secondary school provision had been made for the clever children in the elementary schools, an enormous number of children remained whose need was completer elementary education, or rather some extra teaching which might fit them for the industrial life upon which they were about to enter. He knew of many parents who were willing and anxious that their children should remain at school for a longer period, when they had attained fourteen or fifteen years, of

  1413
  age, if they could be in the same school, under the same teacher, in the same educational atmosphere and—this was a practical point—with the same suit of clothes and without paying higher fees. He had known parents receive with genuine sorrow the notice that their children would no longer be received in the school. He thought it was but faintly appreciated how many unfinished articles, even as regarded elementary education, were turned out of our elementary schools. In the County Council schools of London, where the teaching was most excellent and an excellent system of compelling attendance prevailed, nearly 40 per cent, of the children left at the age of fourteen without getting beyond the fourth standard, which was the standard for children between the ages of ten and eleven. Many causes contributed to this unsatisfactory and unprofitable result, such as early neglect, frequent illness, prolonged absence from school, slow development in the intellect of the child. But there were many children who, encouraged by their parents, would be willing to redeem the time by remaining in the school for a year or two longer. One wondered why these children should be excluded. There was no such exclusion in Scotland or Ireland, and why should they be excluded in England, especially at the time when the intellect of the child often took a new start? Many hon. Members had, he thought, been startled at some figures given to him in reply to Questions which he had asked the previous week as to the number of children over fourteen years of age who were still attending the elementary schools in the three divisions of the kingdom. According to the latest figures available, taking 1,000 as the numerical basis, the proportion in England was 10·6, in Scotland 28·3, and in Ireland 64. As to Ireland, many of the children went to school at the age of twelve or thirteen to learn to read and write. There was less child labour in that country and there was a great deal more looseness about absent children being allowed to remain on the register, and these facts among others perhaps accounted for the figure in regard to that country. It must be borne in mind that the children who were allowed to continue
  1414
  their education belonged to parents of the most enlightened class, parents who exercised considerable self-denial in their action. Why, therefore, should these parents and children be discouraged? Why, when parents were willing that their children should continue at school until they were sixteen or seventeen, should they be forbidden? England was already backward, why should she be made more backward by statute? It was not proposed by this suggestion to compel the children to attend or the authorities to receive. All that was asked for was that in particular cases where parents, scholars, teachers, and authorities, were willing, the novel and pedantic limitation of the Act of 1902 should henceforth cease and that exclusion should operate between the ages of sixteen and seventeen, and not between the ages of fifteen and sixteen. He asked for this on behalf of the mass of the children of the elementary schools who could not go to a secondary school.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 6, to insert ' as power to provide, in public elementary schools, instruction of scholars in day schools up to the end of the school year in which the scholar reaches the age of sixteen.' "
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. BIRRELLsaid his hon. friend had made a most excellent speech on the subject matter of his Amendment, but he hoped he would not press it too severely, because he believed it would really check and discourage a great number of most zealous educationists who had established in our large towns secondary schools on the principle of what was called the four years course. The object of the four years course was to get the child to go into these schools at the age of twelve on the understanding that he would be allowed by his parents to remain four years and get the benefit of the course. He agreed that no scientific distinction could be drawn between what was primary and what was secondary education. Anyone who went to the public elementary schools knew that in the higher standards there was an amount

  1415
  of education being given which was properly secondary education, and if they went to the secondary or higher grade schools they would find in the earlier classes there was a great deal of what was called primary education. The only distinction in the matter was that in the secondary schools they strove to get an assurance from the parents that the children would be allowed to attend the school for a definite period, so that the work could be spread over with the knowledge that the child would get the benefit of the four years course. It was not quite the case, as his hon. friend had suggested, that there was no means of allowing the children to remain in an elementary school beyond the period named, because in Section 22 of the Act of 1902 there was a provision that the local education authority, with the assent of the Board of Education, could extend the limit, provided there was no higher education school in the district. There was, therefore, no hard and fast rule prohibiting a child after he had reached a certain age from attending school. They need not now go into the question; the pre-Cockerton days were over. The Act of 1902 seized an opportunity and made different arrangements, and they did not now say that in public elementary schools nothing but elementary education should go on. The distinction made in the Act of 1902 was the distinction between the elementary and secondary schools, and no hard and fast line was drawn between what must be taught in the one and what in the other. They need not therefore, concern themselves with that. The real difficulty here arose from the fact that it was all right in county boroughs and counties where they had complete jurisdiction over both Part II. and Part III. of education, but that the autonomous districts as they were called, the non-county boroughs and certain districts with a particular kind of population claimed the right to and did provide their own elementary but not their; own secondary education. There was no power in the non-county boroughs to provide both primary and secondary education. The effect therefore of the Amendment would be to allow children to remain in the elementary school of a non-county borough longer than they
  1416
  were now doing, with the disastrous result that the elementary school would come into competition with those secondary county schools which had been established. That he thought would be a very serious blow to education. He knew that there was an objection to these secondary schools on the ground that they were too classical and too humanitarian in their curriculum, and that they were not up-to-date because they did not teach science and mathematics as they ought to do. But there were schools of different types according to the wants of the neighbourhood, and it was quite a mistake to suppose that a child who went to a secondary school would get that sort of clerkly education which would unfit him for earning his living as an artisan. The keeping of a child from year to year living intellectually a hand to mouth existence in the elementary schools would deal a blow at what was most dear to the hearts of most educationists who had established secondary schools which had met with great success in many of our large towns. Working class parents were beginning to appreciate the fact that it was the wisest thing, and that it was best for their children to go to these schools. What they wanted in the secondary schools was to see children of all classes mixing together and receiving the same education according to their particular wants. He would be sorry if the idea got into the heads of the parents that these secondary schools were a sort of genteel place where children of the artisan class, or those who wished to follow the crafts, should not go. He hoped that in the present condition of education, when we had had people toiling and moiling since the Act of 1902 to establish technical and secondary schools, and when the local edcuation authorities were waking up to the fact that schools of all types should be established, a blow would not be struck at that system. He did not in any way wish to limit the curriculum of the public elementary schools or interfere with or keep down the level of the higher grade schools. But do not let the Committee strike a blow at the higher grade schools by inducing parents to believe that it was better for their children to remain a year or two longer at the elementary school than to avail

  1417
  themselves of the advantage to be derived from the secondary schools. Teachers could proceed to work on different lines, and secure much greater results if they knew their scholars were going to remain under their tuition for four years. He did not wish to say anything disrespectful of the public elementary schools, but he did think it would be a pity to encourage the children to remain on year after year instead of taking advantage of the instruction at secondary schools. If there were any faults to be found with the curriculum of the secondary schools let them be corrected, but let them not strike a blow at those schools. He could not accept the Amendment of his hon. friend and he hoped he would not press it.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid he was sorry he could not agree with his right hon. friend in the line he had taken. No educationist would oppose the recent policy of the Education Department to develop the system of secondary schools, but his quarrel with the Department was that it had been developing secondary schools at the expense of elementary schools. They had had too much of the University man and the public school man at the Education Department; his influence had been not altogether for good. The responsible authorities of the Department in order to develop the secondary system had dealt very serious blows at our elementary school system. It was perfectly true that they could not draw a line between the elementary school and the secondary school, but they knew there was a difference between them. The atmosphere of the two classes of school was quite distinct, and as a matter of fact the secondary tended more and more to become a sort of school for higher education in gentlemanliness and respectability. They might deplore it, but it was the case. The moment they sent the child into the atmosphere of the secondary school and brought it into contact with its influence and ideas, a different point of view was put before the child, who was made to occupy a different standpoint altogether in life, He did not for a moment dispute the educational advantage of sending a child
  1418
  to a school where it entered upon a carefully-planned curriculum for four years. It was, undoubtedly, a great advantage to a child who wanted to attend that kind of school and to emerge from it moulded in the spirit and in the character of the school. But there was also another great necessity, and that was to make the elementary school teacher feel that he was not merely a teacher of the lower standards, but that he was required to turn out children fully equipped for their duties in life. If they impressed on the elementary school teacher that if a child on reaching twelve years of age showed special ability it was to pass from his control and care, they would do the worst possible thing for elementary education. They had heard references to the excellence, of the Scottish system, but that excellence depended on the fact that in the Scottish board school they could get better and more efficient teaching than could be got in English secondary schools. Since they had interfered with the Scottish education system by the attempt to differentiate between so-called secondary and elementary education the English influence upon Scottish education had been altogether for the bad. Let them remember that the country depended not merely upon an efficient secondary system, but upon an efficient, self-respecting, proud elementary system, and they could not have that if they were constantly skimming the milk, passing the cream on to other schools, and leaving behind the more backward and less promising children to be beaten into shape by the uninspired elementary teacher. The great intellectual poverty which had hung like a pall over so much of the elementary education of England had been largely owing to the fact that elementary education had largely consisted of the more simple exercises of education. When they had succeeded in getting more democratic influences at the Education Department the would have an improved status of elementary teaching. There were children who wanted something between simple education given in the three R's with the small additions that had been made, and the four years carefully-planned curriculum of the secondary school. They wanted an education which would make them good

  1419
  artisans. The secondary school was professional in its atmosphere and led children to look down upon any career except a professional one. Children who were going to follow a profession should be given the advantages of the secondary school, but those children who did not want to follow a profession should be allowed to stay in the schools to which they had been accustomed by proper education being provided for standards VI. and VII. and ex-standard VII. The reason the last years of a child's life in an elementary school now were probably the most barren of school life was that no provision was made for higher education. By enabling elementary schools to provide those facilties they would elevate elementary education, without doing anything to militate against the system of secondary education which they were glad the Education Department was doing its best to establish in this country.
  MR. YOXALLsaid he differed from the view of his right hon. friend that the growth of the elementary school system was being fostered. One natural growth of the elementary school system was the higher grade board school, the extinction of which showed that that system was being stopped. When his right hon. friend suggested that it had been replaced by municipal secondary schools in every part of the country he was bound to call to mind that there were only some seventy schools in the country so far, that a fee was charged in these schools, that the committees which managed these schools were not permitted to give an adequate number of free places in them, and that the management of the schools was removed from the democratic committee who arranged the elementary schools. He would assume that his right hon. friend was correct in saying that a great number of children in the elementary schools ought to proceed to a secondary school. The object of the Amendment was the assistance of pupils who did not go to secondary schools, and who by a prolongation of their time in an elementary school might develop latent qualities that had not appeared in their earlier
  1420
  years. There was need for such a provision, and he regretted that the Minister for Education did not see his way to adopt it.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONcould not agree with the distinctions drawn by the hon. Member for Leicester. Each kind of education had its purpose and its place in our system and all were equal in so far as they fulfilled the purpose for which they existed. He did not admit the distinction of one class of teacher over another. Elementary, secondary, or other, the teacher did his best to develop the mind and form the intelligence of the pupil in his charge. The hon. Member had assumed that secondary schools developed class distinctions, but he would be sorry if that were so. The only object of the Department in its regulations for secondary schools was the preparation of boys and girls for their work in life. The greatest care was taken to give them a good basis of general education, and beyond that the scholar could specialise in any direction that would be useful to him, but the prolongation of time at the public elementary school would serve no good purpose. If a boy had attended school from five to fifteen years of age, it was useless for him to continue marking time for another year, playing at being a boy when he was becoming a young man. There would be no advantage, but rather injury to the boy, and it would have a bad effect on the teacher and the character of the elementary school. The attention of the teacher would be distracted from the general work to a small group of pupils whose time at the elementary school had been prolonged. What they were mostly concerned with was the raising of the standard of the average student. If the children wanted something between elementary and secondary education there was the higher elementary school to meet the case of students who had not the time for the secondary school course and who wanted something more than the elementary and something more suited to the career in which they were going to embark. For these reasons he should find very great difficulty in supporting the Amendment.
  MR. MASSIEsaid he was satisfied with the discussion which had taken place, though not with all that had been said; and he asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. MADDISONsaid the Amendment he had to propose sought to give power to the local education authorities to train pupil teachers as part of their ordinary work of elementary education. He believed in the superiority of the pupil teacher centre system over that of the secondary school, where a poor man's child often found herself in an atmosphere pervaded by a " nasty class feeling." He appreciated the necessity for imparting to the teacher the fullest culture and refinement, but maintained that there was no training of that kind given at many of the secondary schools that could not be given at the pupil teacher centre. He submitted that it was the natural and even the traditional duty of elementary schools to train their own pupil teachers. Under the old system that training was received at the school in which the pupil teacher was engaged, and was given by the headmaster or the headmistress or some other teacher, and in that way some of our best head teachers had been trained. In course of time it was felt to be rather a clumsy method to make pupil teachers dependent upon the aptitude of a particular headmaster or headmistress, and for that and other reasons the pupil teacher centres were set up. At these centres the training of elementary teachers was conducted and many of the very best teachers who were in charge now of some of the largest schools were the product of that system. He would not now deal with the agitation which lead to the Cockerton judgment, which he thought was regarded upon the progressive side as an attack upon popular education, and it was generally agreed that the work of school boards in this direction had been curtailed and largely destroyed by that judgment. He believed he was right in saying that those who promoted the Cockerton judgment never had in their minds any desire to interfere with the pupil teacher centres. They
  1422
  were undoubtedly very determined in their attack on the higher grade schools which they thought were competing unfairly with the secondary schools. The judgment centred round the question of the age at which a child could be educated at an elementary school. The age of sixteen was obviously one which covered a large number of those attending pupil teacher centres, and, although these institutions largely went under, there was good reason for saying that the Cockerton proceedings were not primarily intended to be directed against them. He did not share the opinion of those who believed that it was better that boys when they reached a certain stage in their education should go for their further training into secondary schools. The higher grade school of the old school board was the workmen's best form of higher education. But pupil teacher centres stood apart from these, and he hoped that the Minister for Education might see his way to accept the Amendment. The objection which was raised against the previous Amendment would, he imagined, be raised against this one. The argument was that it was desirable that the pupil teachers who were to have the training of the children of the working classes should become more and more cultured. He would make a candid admission. He had gone into board schools, and when he had heard teachers training children he had wished that they had brought more refinement to their work. He quite admitted that education did not consist entirely in teaching a child that two and two make four. But was it a fact that pupil teachers who were sent to secondary schools got more culture and refinement than they did in the old pupil teacher centres? Speaking of London, he ventured to dispute the proposition altogether. A daughter of his had attended the pupil teacher centre at Battersea where the headmaster was a gentleman who afterwards became an inspector. The fact that he was considered fit to be appointed an inspector might be taken as an indication that the centre was really one of the best secondary schools that young people could be sent to. His second girl was sent to a secondary school. The school was one of a number mentioned in a circular which was sent

  1423
  to him stating that they were open to Her for the purpose other probation. These girls' middle class schools were in the main attended by pupils who came from suburban villas, and the pupils might know how to do their hair, what sort of frock they should wear, and how to hold their knife and fork—excellent things no doubt—but if a girl was not dressed up to the average of the others attending the school, she would have an unpleasant time. That was an actual fact. The girl was not necessarily in an atmosphere of culture. Let not the Committee run away with that idea. Culture was not necessarily to be found in suburban villadom. There was another objection. The pupil teachers were hedged round by a lot of rules and conditions, and they ought to be protected. What protection did the secondary school girls get? They were not subject to the conscience clause. They were not subject to many of the safeguards which were enforced in the elementary schools. They were part of the elementary system of education, and he contended that all the culture and refinement that was necessary could be obtained as well in the pupil teacher centres as in secondary schools. The hon. Member for Oxford University knew all about the Oxford pupil teacher centre, and must be aware that the chairman of that body proposed a scheme for a new centre thoroughly equipped with everything which was needed for higher education, and with laboratories—a scheme which was recommended by Professor Sadler. But, in opposition to that scheme, one of His Majesty's inspectors said that it was the policy of the Board of Education to abolish the pupil teacher centres and to use secondary schools instead, and the result was that the young people were sent to the Oxford High School and another denominational school in which there was neither a laboratory nor any of the apparatus necessary for the training of pupil teachers. He submitted that for a large number of years the system recommended in the Amendment was in actual operation with the best results, and that the pupil teacher centres were capable of development and contained within them all the possibilities of secondary schools. He ventured to say that if the President of the Board of Education
  1424
  would accept his Amendment he would be doing something to give real effect to popular education. The Amendment did not raise any wretched religious squabble; it was only meant to advance real education, and therefore he hoped they would get a satisfactory answer from the representative of the Government, He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed —
  " To insert at the end of the clause ' (a) power of training and preparing pupil teachers up to the date of their entering a training college or becoming assistant teachers.' "—(Mr. Maddison.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there added."
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH.)said that a long time had elapsed, and a great deal had taken place since the case of hardship referred to by the hon. Member for Burnley. So far as he could follow his hon. friend, he dealt with London more than with the provinces, and he had spoken of most excellent pupil teacher centres in the Metropolis, and especially of one at Battersea. He acknowledged the excellent work which had been carried on by these pupil teacher centres in London, of which there were formerly twelve; but as a matter of fact seven or eight of them had gradually developed into most excellent secondary schools.
  MR. MADDISON: Only half of them are doing their proper work.
  MR. LOUGHso that at any rate they were doing excellent work. There were seven or eight girls secondary schools maintained by the London County Council and facilities were given in them for training pupil teachers. He maintained that to take the step recommended by the hon. Member for Burnley would be equivalent to setting back the hands of the clock. Pupil teachers had hitherto been as a rule badly trained, and the Government believed that they would receive a better training in secondary schools where they would breathe a somewhat different atmosphere and meet with all classes. Those secondary schools

  1425
  were now managed by the same education authority as the elementary schools. Then there was the question of money. A large amount of money was now devoted to secondary schools, and even in small urban districts a levy of 1d. rate could be made to supplement what was being done by the county council for secondary education. Altogether for the reasons given the Government could not possibly accept the Amendment on its merits.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the hon. Member for Burnley had challenged him as to what was being done at Oxford. Of his own knowledge he could testify to the excellence of the two secondary schools in that city, and negotiations were now going on the result of which would be that the boys intending to be teachers could get their instruction as pupil teachers at one of the secondary schools before going into the training colleges, which he thought would be very much to their advantage. His own belief was that the future of the pupil teacher would be that an intending teacher would get his education at the secondary school, and his training as a teacher at the training college. In those happy conditions the education of the teacher would improve and the output of the training colleges would increase, because the period devoted to the training college would probably be reduced. He could not think that the hon. Member wished to place the pupil teacher in the position he was in before the Cockerton judgment. The pupil teacher would get at the secondary school what every teacher wanted—a good general education—and he would then be better fitted for the preparation he would get at the training college. He believed that the system now proposed by the Board of Education was the best possible, under present conditions, for training teachers, and that it was a most important factor in promoting the general education of the country.
  MR. MADDISONsaid that after the statement of the President of the Board of Education on the previous Amendment he wished to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDmoved as an Amendment to include among the powers of a local education authority the power to aid by scholarships or bursaries the instruction in public elementary schools of scholars beyond the age or standard of compulsory attendance. He argued that any attempt to curtail the dignity and importance of elementary schools or to limit the work of elementary teachers would be a profound mistake from the point of view of elementary education, but he did not want to emphasise that point too much, because it had already-been raised and the opinion of the Committee expressed upon it. It did not, moreover, cover the whole scope of his Amendment. The hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford University had an Amendment on the Paper to his Amendment to leave out " beyond the age or standard of compulsory attendance," and to insert " from the age of twelve up to the limit of age fixed for the limit of instruction in a public elementary school by Section 22, sub-section (2)of the Education Act of 1902." That would be an exceedingly important improvement for the Board of Education to grant, because the other day the President of the Board of Education in answer to a Question put to him by an hon. and gallant Member on the Opposition Benches, had stated that two - thirds of the education authorities in rural districts granted exemption to children at the age of twelve. It was obvious that a child who left the elementary school at that age and probably never saw the inside of a school again and never came under the influence of education or of teachers, could not possibly be fit to discharge the duties of life. When they looked into the figures which the right hon. Gentleman gave, and acquired some knowledge of the conditions in which the children lived and of the reasons which prompted the parents to apply for exemption, they could see at once that it was a mere matter of poverty which rendered it impossible for parents to allow their children to go on attending school. If the local education authority had the power to grant scholarships and bursaries it would be brought within the power of thousands

  1427
  of children to continue to attend school up to the age of thirteen and fourteen and to proceed higher later on. Everybody who had been connected with a local education authority or with education must have been met with this difficulty, which was also one of the great obstacles experienced in getting the children to attend technical schools. What happened was that when they had reached a certain amount of proficiency the parent came and said that he was not able to keep his children at school because of the pressure on his means. There was only one way of meeting that and it had been adopted by the Technical Education Board, who had established a system of maintenance scholarships. For the first year the grant was, he thought, £10, for the second year £12 10s., and for the third year £15. Such a system enabled the parent to keep the child out of the labour market and enabled the child to reap the full benefit which the ratepayers intended to confer. If a system of maintenance scholarships could be justified in regard to technical education, it could be justified ten times over as part of our ordinary educational system. There were no doubt a number of children who would not be benefited if they had to attend secondary schools. But there was no class of children who would not be benefited by attending elementary schools up to the age of fourteen. His proposal was that not only should the local education authority be enabled to grant fee scholarships, but maintenance scholarships up to the age of fifteen, and he would be very glad if the Board of Education would meet him in this matter and say that it should be in the power of the local authorities to give these scholarships beyond the age or standard of compulsory attendance.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 20, line 9, at the end, to add the words 'and (c) power to aid by scholarships or bursaries the instruction in public elementary schools of scholars beyond the age or standard of compulsory attendance."'— (Mr. J. Ramsay Macdonald.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that the late school boards, under the pres-
  1428
  sure of the needs of the working classes, had to make considerable provision for the continuance of education, but that was all cut away by the Act of 1902, which said that they must eliminate and co-ordinate. The elimination had been carried out very thoroughly and even now they had had a refusal from the Treasury Bench to provide for a continuance up to the age of sixteen. He had obtained a Return a few days ago which he would ask all the Labour Members and those interested in this question inside and outside the House to study. It showed that there were many urban districts scattered up and down the country without a scholarship of any kind for the children of the working classes. In many of the English boroughs also there was not a scholarship available for the children. If a child happened to be born in Dundee, for one of every twenty-three scholars there was a scholarship of some sort. In Perth there was a scholarship for one out of every eighty scholars, while in Dunfermline there was a scholarship for one out of eighty-five. The borough of Accrington and that of Burslem both contained a considerable number of children, but there was not a single scholarship available. He regretted the hon. Member for Cambridge was not in his place, because he wanted to point out to him that while in that place there were 6,147 elementary scholars in attendance upon the schools, there was not a single scholarship or bursary available for them. The Return gave the cases of great boroughs where there were 5,000, 6,000, or 7,000 scholars and not a single opportunity of going beyond the limit of elementary instruction. In cases, moreover, where there were 20,000, 30,000, and 40,000 scholars there were only two or, perhaps, four scholarships. He did appeal under these circumstances to his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Education to give the local authority power to make better provision than this. In Exeter and other cathedral cities and also in Chester the number of scholarships was very large, whereas in large places like Smethwick and Burslem such provision was entirely lacking. In agricultural counties also, where there were perhaps 20,000 or 30,000 children, some of whom, although born of humble parents,

  1429
  migh have great capacity, the provision of scholarships was sadly needed. He did not ask that the 20,000 or 30,000 children should be carried forward, but in the agricultural areas there would probably be 5 per cent, of the children whom it would be desirable, for the benefit of the nation, to carry forward to something better in the way of education than anything which they could obtain to-day. He had never read a more humiliating Return, and he contended that some general provision should be adopted whereby scholars both in boroughs and in counties should be enabled to carry on their education in order to give them a better chance in life.
  MR. PAULsaid we had a system of elementary education, a system of secondary education, and a system of higher education, but we had no system of education as a whole He supported the Amendment, because it was a step in the direction of bringing these three systems together and making them into one. There were no such foundations in the world as those of Winchester, Eton, and Harrow, and for the last half-century and more the entrance into those foundations had been purely intellectual, yet how little had those foundations contributed to the literary or scientific life of the country. The reason was not far to seek. It was because they were not connected with the elementary school system of the country, but were simply private adventure schools, cramming institutions for the vulgar art of pot hunting. The examinations for these foundations were so constructed that the pupils of the elementary schools could not compete. It was useless to say that all people were born equally intelligent; they were not so, and Parliament could not make the people equally intelligent, but it could give them, and they had a right to have, the same equal intellectual opportunity before the law to rise in the world. That was what the educational system of the country now denied them, and that was what this Amendment proposed to give them, and he supported it because in his belief it was a step in the right direction.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid that if he accepted the Amendment at all he would find it easier to do so after it had been amended in the manner proposed by the hon. Baronet opposite. The real effect of the hon. Member for Leicester's Amendment was to induce a parent to allow a child to remain a little longer at a public elementary school by giving, in the form of a bursary, the equivalent of what might be earned if the child left school at once. The only objection he had to raise to the form of the Amendment was that he did not wish to do anything to deplete our secondary school system, which had been slowly built up in the large towns and was receiving a large amount of municipal support and local enthusiasm. To tempt a parent by giving the equivalent of his child's labour was hardly the right way to go to work. He was in favour of extending the term of years of compulsory attendance at schools, and he hoped an opportunity would occur during the existence of this Parliament of dealing with school attendance. He did not think his hon. friend's Amendment proceeded quite on the right principle. He quite agreed that we were lamentably deficient in this country in scholarships for children attending our public elementary schools. He did not want to do anything which would seem to limit the increase of these bursaries. He wished it were possible to persuade English millionaires to behave with the same generosity as Scotsmen had shown. Scotland had become a country of bursaries. It was the cheapest country in the world in which to get a good education. It would, he feared, be many thousand years before England reached the same stage.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that if, it were in order he would now move his Amendment to the Amendment of the Member for Leicester, which would provide for power to aid by scholarships or bursaries the instruction in public elementary schools of scholars " from the age of twelve up to the limit of age fixed for the provision of instruction in a public elementary school fixed by Section 22, subsection (2), of the Education Act, 1902." He was anxious that local authorities should be able to offer some inducement to children to remain at school after

  1431
  the age at which exemptions from attendance might begin.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  " In line 2, to leave out the words ' beyond the age or standard of compulsory attendance,' and insert the words ' from the age of twelve up to the limit of age fixed for the provision of instruction in a public elementary school fixed by Section 22, subsection (2), of the Education Act, 1902.'"—(Sir William Alison.)
  Question proposed—
  "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  DR. MACNAMARAhoped his right hon. friend would not accept the proposal of the hon. Baronet, because it would only enable a scholarship in an elementary school to be given beyond the age of twelve up to fifteen, and that would only carry a boy a little distance along the road. They wanted scholarships or bursaries for bright lads beyond the age of fifteen in secondary schools. They would have to get a much more general system than they had now.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid he understood the Minister for Education was prepared to accept his Amendment as proposed to be amended by the hon. Member for Oxford University. He did not accept the reasons that had been urged, but as this was a substantial step, he was prepared to accept it if the Government would agree to it.
  COLONEL WILLIAMSobjected to the proposed Amendment to the Amendment for the reason that the scholarships provided by the higher schools were taken great advantage of at this moment. There was hardly any school in England which had not the power of offering scholarships to boys of elementary schools, and a very wise provision it was. But this proposal was entirely different. It was not a proposal for scholarships at all. It was putting a burden upon the rates which ought not to be put upon them. It was paying greedy parents to keep their children at school when they wanted them to go to work, and he hoped, therefore, this Amendment would not be accepted.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid he was very strongly in favour of anything that would enable the elementary scholars to proceed to secondary schools. He believed that the powers possessed by the authorities were to some extent used, although he regretted it was very small extent, and anything the Board of Education could do to increase the use of those powers would certainly earn the gratitude of the country. But it struck him that the present Amendment opened up a very difficult question.
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment," put, and negatived.
  Proposed words inserted in the proposed Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words, as amended, be there added."
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid that unless it was proposed to make this arrangement universal, which he did not expect was the object of the hon. Member for Oxford University, it seemed to him that members of education authorities would have opened up to them the prospect of having to examine parents as to their powers of sending their children to school without this assistance. In the days of school fees no more unpleasant duty was forced upon School boards than that of inquiring into the wages of parents to see whether they could or could not afford to pay the fees for their children. In this case some inquiry would have to be made as to the financial ability of parents to keep their children at school until the age proposed. Unless some further explanation was given as to what would be the plan of operation he should be compelled to vote against the Amendment, although he was very anxious to assist any scheme to give scholarships to boys who had passed the elementary stage of education.
  MR. ROGERSthought it better that the scholarships should be held at the secondary than at the elementary schools, because a boy or girl of twelve years of age who was up to scholarship standard would have exhausted the capacity of the

  1433
  elementary school. He was anxious to provide scholarships for children whose parents were too poor to pay for the completion of their education, but it would be a blunder to give scholarships to keep a smart youth at an elementary school. He should be obliged to vote against this Amendment because he did not think it was the right way to deal with the question.
  MR. CAVEsaid that he agreed with the last speaker. He had been for many years on the governing body of a county secondary school to which a number of children came with minor county scholarships from public elementary schools, and were then helped on by means of major county scholarships to the University. The hon. Member for Northampton was perhaps not aware how much had been done by county scholarships. [An HON. MEMBER: There are very few in some counties.] The remedy for that was not to discourage counties which had done their duty in this matter. He was afraid that if this Amendment were accepted it might stop that process. He was in favour of the scholarship system and he hoped it would spread, but he could not support this Amendment.
  MR. J. W. WILSONsaid he came from a county where a system of scholarships for secondary schools was being developed. They wanted to get the children who had qualified for leaving the elementary schools before they reached the age at which they might leave school and give them a scholarship. He would much prefer an Amendment like this if it gave
  more scholarships to secondary instead of elementary schools.
  MR. BIRRELLsaid there was nothing inconsistent between the scholarships aimed at in this Amendment and the secondary schools scholarships. A child went to a secondary school with a scholarship at the age of twelve and went through a four years course. There was nothing inconsistent between this kind of scholarship and the other. He hoped that as time went on the secondary schools would vary their curriculum sufficiently to give an advantage to children who proposed to follow a handicraft rather than to mere clerkly persons. As things were at present it was difficult to find a secondary school of that sort, and it might be very useful to keep a child at a public elementary school. The power proposed was permissive, and no county would allow it to interfere with the general system of secondary education, of which he was an enthusiastic advocate. As things stood at present there was room for both. He hoped a vote would now be taken.
  MR. WILLIAM KUTHERFORDopposed the Amendment, on the ground that the object was not to send the child to a superior school. The Amendment merely proposed that money should be paid to parents for allowing their child to stay at an elementary school. Any hon. Member who supported the Amendment under the impression that it was going to give an intelligent youth some chance of advancement would be woefully mistaken.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 391; Noes, 86. (Division List No. 218.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Benn, SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt

  Agnew, George William

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Barker, John

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Alden, Percy

  Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

  Bertram, Julius

  Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Barnard, E. B.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Armitage. R.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Billson, Alfred

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry

  Beauchamp, E.

  Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Boland, John

  Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire,N.E.

  Duffy, William J.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Kearley, Hudson. E.

  Brace, William

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Branch, James

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Brigg, John

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Bright, J. A.

  Elibank, Master of

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Kitson, Sir James

  Brodie, H. C.

  Essex, R. W.

  Laildaw, Robert

  Brooke, Stopford

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lambert, George

  Bryce, Rt.Hn.Jas. (Aberdeen)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lamont, Norman

  Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Field, William

  Lea, HughCecil(St.Pancras, E.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lever, A.Levy(Essex,Harwich)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lever, W.H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Levy, Maurice

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Chas.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Byles, William Pollard

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Lough, Thomas

  Cairns, Thomas

  Gill, A. H.

  Lundon, W.

  Cameron, Robert

  Ginnell, L.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

  Luttreli, Hugh Fownes

  Causton.Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

  Glover, Thomas

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Cawley, Frederick

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lynch, H. B.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Grove, Archibald

  Maclean, Donald

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gulland, John W.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Callum, John M.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Crae, George

  Clough, W.

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Halpin, J.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Coats, SirT.Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

  M'Killop, W.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Collins,SirWm. J. (S. Pancras.W.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Harwood, George

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Cooper, G. J.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Corbett.C H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Massie, J.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hazelton, Richard

  Meagher, Michael

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Menzies, Walter

  Cox, Harold

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Mond, A.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Higham, John Sharp

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Crean, Eugene

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Montagu, E. S.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hodge, John

  Mooney, J. J.

  Crombie, John William

  Hogan, Michael

  Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Crossley, William J.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Morrell, Philip

  Cullinan, J.

  Hope, W- Bateman(SomersetN

  Morse, L. L.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Murphy, John

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Murray, James

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hudson, Walter

  Myer, Horatio

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hyde. Clarendon

  Napier, T. B.

  Delany, William

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nicholls, George

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jackson,R. S.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N

  Jenkins, J.

  Nusssy, Thomas Willans

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Duckworth, James

  Joaes, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.)

  1436

  1437

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Robinson, S.

  Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Tomkinson, James

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Toulmin, George

  O'Dowd, John

  Rowlands, J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  O'Grady, J.

  Runciman, Walter

  Ure, Alexander

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Russell, T. W.

  Valentia, Viscount

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Verney, F. W.

  O'Malley, William

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Vivian, Henry

  O'Mara, James

  Samuel, S.M. (Whitechapel)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Wallace, Robert

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton- under- Lyne

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Paul, Herbert

  Sears, J. E.

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Seaverns, J. H-

  Wardle, George J.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Seddon, J.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Pearson, SirW.D. (Colchester)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

  Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Piekersgill, Edward Hare

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Whitbread, Howard

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

  Snowden, P.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Stead man, W. C.

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carm'rthen

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Williamson, A.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Rees, J. D.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesborough)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Richardson, A.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Winfrey, R.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Summerbell, T.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

  Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Young, Samuel

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifte)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Tennant, H- J. (Berwickshire)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Robertson, Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradfrd

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Pease.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Thomas, DavidAlfred (Merthyr

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn.Sir AlexF.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

  Hill. Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham

  Hills, J. W.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Balcarres, Lord

  Courthope, G. Lloyd

  Hunt, Rowland

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

  King, Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)

  Beach, Hn.MichaelHugh Hicks

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Duncan,Robert Lanark (Govan

  Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.Farebam)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Long,Rt.Hn.Walter (Dublin.S.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Fell, Arthur

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Marks, H. H- (Kent)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Forster, Henry William

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Haddock, George R.

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

  Cave, George

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

  Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C.W.

  Hardy.Laurence (Kent,Ashford

  Percy, Earl.

  1438

  1439

  Radford, G. H.

  Starkey, John R.

  Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Wortley, Rt. Bon. C. B. Stuart

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Younger, George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid

  Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool,Walton

  Willoughby, de Eresby Lord

  Colonel Williams and Mr.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

  Rogers.

  Question, " That Clause 35, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  And, it being after half-past Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 18th June, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of Clauses 35 and 36.
  Clause 36:—
  Question put, " That Clause 36 stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 337; Noes, 136. (Division List No. 219.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Elibank, Master of

  Agnew, George William

  Burt, Rt.Hon. Thomas

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Buxton.Rt.Hn.SydneyCharles

  Essex, R. W.

  Alden, Percy

  Byles, William Pollard

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Armitage, R.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Asquith,Rt.Hn.HerbertHenry

  Cameron, Robert

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Astbury, John Meir

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Findlay, Alexander

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Barker, John

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somers'

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Gill, A. H.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Clough, W.

  Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJo'n

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Clynes, J. R.

  Glover, Thomas

  Beauchamp, E.

  Coats,SirT.Glen(Renfrew,W.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbo'r'e

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexh'm)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cooper, G. J.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

  Grove, Archibald

  Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt

  Corbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Gulland, John W.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B-

  Bertram, Julius

  Cox, Harold

  Hall, Frederick

  Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

  Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Billson, Alfred

  Crombie, John William

  Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Harmsworth, R.L. (Cairhn'ss-'h

  Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)

  Crossley, William J.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Harwood, George

  Bolton,T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Brace, William

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol.S.)

  Helme, Nval Watson

  Branch, James

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Henderson Arthur (Durham)

  Brigg, John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Henry, Char s S.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Herbert,Colon, lIvor(Mon.,S.)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Brooke, Stopford

  Duckworth, James

  Hill,HenryStaveley(Staffsh.)

  Brunner,SirJohnT.(Cheshire)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Bryce,Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Hodge, John

  Bryce,J.A.(InvernessBurghs)

  Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall

  Holden, E. Hopkinson

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Hope.John Deans (Fife, West

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  O'Grady, J.

  Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Partington, Oswald

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Paul, Herbert

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Jackson, R. S.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Jenkins, J.

  Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton)

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

  Summerbell, T.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Kearley, Hudson E,

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Tennant,SirEdward(Salisbury

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Pollard, Dr.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Price, C.E.(Edinb'gh,Central)

  Thomas,Abel(Carmarthen,E.)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)

  Thomas,SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Lamb, EdmundG.(Leominster

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Thomas,DavidAlfred(Merthyr

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

  Thompson, J. W.H. (Somerset, E

  Lambert, George

  Radford, G. H.

  Tomkinson, James

  Lamont, Norman

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Lea,HughCecil(St.Pancras.E.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Toulmin, George

  Leese,SirJosephF.(Accrington

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lehmann, R. C-

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Ure, Alexander

  Lever, A.Levy(Essex,Harwich

  Rees, J. D.

  Verney, F. W.

  Lever, W.H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

  Rendall, Atbelstan

  Vivian, Henry

  Levy, Maurice

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richards, TF.(Wolverh'mpt'n

  Wallace, Robert

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Richardson, A.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Lough, Thomas

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leec's, S.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Welton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Ward,John(Stoke upon Trent

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Wason,Eugene(Clackmannan)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Robertson, Rt. Hn.E.(Dundee)

  Wason,JohnCathcart(Orkney)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Robortson,SirGScott(Bradf'd

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Maclean, Donald

  Robinson, S.

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Weir, James Galloway

  M'Callum, John M.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Whitbread, Howard

  M'Crae, George

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  White, George (Norfolk)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Rose, Charles Day

  White, J. D. (Dunbartonshire)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rowlands, J.

  White, Luke (York. E. R.)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Runciman, Walter

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Russell, T. W.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Rutherford, V. H.(Brentford)

  Whittaker, Sir ThomasPalmer

  Mansfield, H.Rendall(Lincoln)

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Marnham, F. J.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Massie, J.

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Williams,Llewolyn(Carmarth'n

  Menzies, Walter

  Schwann,SirC.E. (Manchester)

  Williamson, A.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Scott,A.H.(AshtonunderLyne

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Mond, A.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Sears, J. E.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Montagu, E. S.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Wilson, J. H.(Middlesbrough)

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Seddon, J.

  Wilson, J.W.(Woresstersh.N.)

  Morgan, J.Lloydf Carmarthen)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

  Morrell, Philip

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick,B.)

  Winfrey, R.

  Morse, L. L.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Wodehouse,Lord(Norfolk,Mid ,

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Murray, James

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Woodhouse.SirJ.T(Huddersf'd

  Myer, Horatio

  Sinclair, Rt.Hon. John

  Yo all, James Henry

  Newnes.F.(Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncast'r

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Snowden, P.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Soares,Ernast J.

  Pease.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork.N.E.

  Anstruther-Grey, Major

  Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn.SirH.

  Acland-Hood,RtHnSirAlex.F.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Baker, JosephA. (Finsbury, E.)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Ashley, W. W.

  Balcarres, Lord

  1442

  1443

  Balfour,RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.

  Field, William

  Nicholson, Wm.G.Petersfield)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Barrie, H.T(Londonderry, N.)

  Fletcher, J. S.

  O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid

  Beach, Hn.Michael HughHicks

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Forster, Henry William

  O'Connor,James(Wicklow,W.)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Boland, John

  Ginnell, L.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Haddock, George R.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Halpin, J.

  O'Dowd, John

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Bright, J. A.

  Hardy Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  O' Kelly ,James(Roscommon,N

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H.B.

  O'Malley, William

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Mara, James

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

  Hervey,F.W. F. (BuryS. Edm's

  Parker,SirGilbert(Gravesend)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

  Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hills, J. W.

  Percy, Earl

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hogan, Michael

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cave, Geroge

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

  Cavendish.Rt.Hon.VictorC.W.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kennaway,Rt.Hn.SirJohn H.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool .Walton

  Coates, E.Feetham (Lewisham

  King,AlfredJohn (Knutsford)

  Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  King,SirHenrySeymour(Hull)

  Starkey, John R.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich

  Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.Oxf'dUniv

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Thomson,W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Craig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.

  Lee, ArthurH. (Hants.,Fareh'm

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Crean, Eugene

  Long,Col. CharlesW. (Evesham

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cullinan, J.

  Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Delany, William

  Lundon, W.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galw'y

  MacVeagh,Jeremiah(Down,S.

  White, Patrick (Meath.North)

  Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Dixon-Hartland,SirFred Dixon

  M'Killop, W.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wortley. Rt.Hn. C.B. Stuart-

  Douglas, Rt.Hon. A. Akers-

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Young, Samuel

  Duffy, William J.

  Meagher, Michael

  Younger, George

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark,Govan

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Mooney, J. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES, Mr.

  Faber, Capt. W. V.(Hants,W.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Samuel Roberts and Mr.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Murphy, John

  Butcher.

  Fell, Arthur

  Napier, T. B.

  Bill read a Second time, and committed for to-morrow.

  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  NETTLEBED AND DISTRICT COMMONS (PRESERVATION) BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
  Read a second time, and committed.

  LABOURERS (IRELAND) [ADVANCES].
  Resolution reported, " That it is expedient to authorise the repayment to the Ireland Development Grant, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of
  1444
  such annual sum as may be advanced out of that fund, in pursuance of any Act of the present session to amend the Law relating to Labourers in Ireland, and to make provision with respect to the application of portion of the Ireland Development Grant."
  Motion made, and Question proposed, '' That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid he wished to draw attention to the fact that this money Resolution would have an effect on the counties of the North of Ireland. For instance, he county of Ireland a portion of which he represented was entitled to £3,466 per annum—
  MR. JOHN REDMONDpointed out that the Resolution before the House was one affecting money to be taken from the Irish Development Fund for the purposes of advances to the Irish labourers' cottages. The hon. Member for East Down was going into the consideration of Clause 18 of the Labourers Bill by which it was proposed that there should be a new distribution of certain grants which had nothing earthly to do with the Report stage on this financial Resolution.
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsubmitted that the whole question of the finance of that Bill was based upon this Resolution. Therefore he insisted he was perfectly entitled to discuss what share each county should have in the distribution of the money under this Resolution.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid that Exchequer grants which were already made could not be discussed. This Resolution only had reference to grants to be made here after
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid in that case he would raise this question in Committee.

  CROWN LANDS [RECOVERY OF CROWN RENTS].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the chair.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed, " That it is expedient that no proceedings shall be taken by or on behalf of the Crown for enforcing the payment of any quit rent or any other perpetual rent payable to the Crown in Ireland, or any arrears thereof, but within sixty years from the time when such rent was last received by or on behalf of the Crown, and that after such period the right of the Crown to the rent and arrears shall be extinguished in pursuance of any Act of the present session to amend the Crown Lands Acts, 1829 to 1894.—(Mr. McKenna).
  MR. CLAUDE HAYasked what was the sum of money involved in the Resolution put from the Chair.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,)said it was impossible to say what sum was involved because they did not know what number of cases would come before the Estates Commissioners. The Treasury would under no circumstances claim quit rents for a period beyond sixty years. This clause was introduced at the request of hon. Members opposite.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDasked whether the clause was to apply to the future or the past.
  MR. MCKENNAsaid it applied to the future. If the money on a sale of an Irish estate fell into the hands of the Estates Commissioners it was held to be doubtful whether they should pay the money over to the landlord or to the State. In order to facilitate the Lands Purchase Act this clause had been inserted.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDasked whether he was to understand that the Motion before the Committee was that quit rent in arrears for sixty years should be dropped.
  MR. MCKENNAsaid the quit rents would be collected up to sixty years; those beyond would not be collected. That was the law in England at the present moment, and was believed to be the law in Ireland until a recent judicial decision.
  MR. FIELDasked whether it was a fact that the quit rents collected in Ireland were spent in beautifying London parks.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that question did not arise on this Motion.
  Resolution to be reported to-morrow.

  POST OFFICE SITES (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  (In the Committee.)
  Clauses 1 to 10 agreed to.
  Clause 11:—
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That clause 11 stand part of the Bill."
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he had always objected to special powers being granted to the Crown to the detriment of private individuals. Whenever a corporation or a railway company sought to acquire land for any purpose the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act came into operation and said they must take the whole and not part of the property of the individual whose land they sought to acquire. It appeared to him that the Post Office was just about the last public department that should seek to take advantage of any private owner of property. If the Post Office took property for public purposes it should be bound by the general law of the land and be compelled, if the owner wished it, to take the whole of the particular property and pay a fair market price for it. He objected to the Post Office being relieved from the obligation of the general law under Section 92 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act of 1845.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,)said he thought in all previous Bills of this description the clause had been inserted, and there was no dispute between the owner and the Post Office in this case.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that Section 92 of the Lands Clauses Act simply provided that the owner, part of whose property was taken, could demand that the whole should be taken, and if there were no complaint there was no reason why the general law should be departed from.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid there were difficulties with regard to title.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDthought the right hon. Gentleman must have been misinstructed in regard to this matter, because if there were difficulties with regard to title they were dealt with in the earlier clauses of the Bill. This was not a question of title, but whether the Post Office was to take a piece of land instead of the whole. A question of the title of a piece was the same as a question of the title of the whole.
  SIR E. CARSONthought that the right hon. Gentleman must be mistaken in saying that this concerned questions of title, which were regulated in quite a different way.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid the Postmaster-General had made two replies. One was that this clause was introduced because it was a question of title, and the other was that there was no dispute. He submitted that if there was no dispute there was no necessity to introduce the clause which did not in any way solve any dispute that might arise out of the title. He would tell the right hon. Gentleman why the clause was introduced. It was introduced in order to save the Post Office money, because they thought, and rightly from their point of view, that it would be cheaper to buy part of the property when they only required part than to buy the whole. From the point of view of the Post Office that, was a good object no doubt, but from the point of view of the individual holder of property it was exceedingly bad. He suggested to the right hon. Gntleman that the best thing for him to do was to report progress, and he moved accordingly.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he could not accept the Motion.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid there was nothing new about the clause, and no one would suffer by it. The whole of the property in question was not required by the Post Office and it was only proposed to take a portion of it. They could

  1449
  not, however, take it if material detriment was caused to the whole. That point was left to the arbitrator, but there was nothing new about the clause. In many of these cases there were difficulties in regard to various interests of owners and the question of title had to be cleared up.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTappealed to the Attorney-General to give the Committee some advice on the legal point that had been raised.
  THE ATTORNEY - GENERAL (Sir JOHN WALTON,)said he had been taken by surprise and had had only a slight opportunity of reading the section. But there would not be any difficulty in dealing with the clause. It frequently happened in the compulsory purchase of land under the Land Clauses Act that the undertakers wished to take a portion of a section of land which could not be severed without damage to the remaining portion. The landowner then had the right to insist upon the whole being taken, and that was often felt to be a hardship upon the undertakers, who contested the question whether or not the remainder would in fact be damaged by the severance. This clause provided that where the Postmaster-General only wanted a portion of land, and where the landowner insisted that the whole should be taken, the question whether the remainder which was not taken was in point of fact damaged by the severance, was left to the arbitrator.
  SIR E. CARSONagreed with every word the hon. and learned Gentleman had said, but asked if he would tell them what the question of title had to do with the clause.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he apologised if, as a layman, he had made a mistake in a legal technicality.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid the observations of the Attorney-General would be very much to the point if it were proposed to make this the law of the land; but Section 92 of the Land Clauses Consolidation Act of 1845 still remained the law of the land. Why
  1450
  should the Post Office enjoy an exception from it? If it were a proper amendment of the law, why not make it general? Section 92 of the Land Clauses Consolidation Act provided that in all cases—
  THE CHAIRMANsaid this was that fourth time the hon. Gentleman had said so, and he must remind him that he was guilty of repetition.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he had never been allowed to complete the sentence yet. A Member should not be bullied in this way. He was entitled, at all events, to complete a sentence, and he proposed to begin it again and complete it.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he had already told the hon. Gentleman that that was a repetition of what he had said, and he must not defy the Chair by repeating that sentence.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: If you say you cannot permit me to finish a sentence which I have several times begun, well, then, Sir, I cannot submit to it.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must not address the Chair in that way.
  SIR E. CARSONsaid that this was a serious and unusual clause. If there were precedents for it, they should be cited.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not find himself in agreement with his hon. friend behind him on this occasion. He supposed that the Bill was drawn in accordance with precedent, but the Committee had not got that assurance from the Government. His impression was drawn from the fact that this Bill was substantially the one introduced last session, and which was then objected to by hon. Gentlemen who were now so desirous of seeing it passed. It was owing to their opposition alone that it now required to be passed. Had they shown on that occasion the unanimous enthusiasm with which the Committee were now blessed none of this difficulty would have arisen. He suspected that

  1451
  the Bill was correctly drawn, and that it should be passed in the form in which the Government had brought it in. The clause seemed to him to be substantially fair, and probably it would do adequate justice to the owners of the property. The question whether this was or was not the first time that a modification of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act had been brought in was an important one. If it was not the first time then this Bill was according to precedent, and it seemed to him that the Committee would be well advised to pass it into law. Speaking from experience he could assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that nothing was gained by allowing the debates to get heated. There was a great deal of other Government business to get through, and it could not be got through in a House where there was much heat. He would suggest that a courteous hearing should be given to objectors, and above all that the Government should give an adequate defence of the Bill.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he had not previous Acts before him, but he was confident that this Bill was drawn in accordance with precedent in the matter.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Is it framed on the old precedent?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: As far as I know it has been.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he would take the hon. Gentleman's word for it.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time to-morrow.

  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made and Amendment proposed, " That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid the Bill of last year was opposed by the Secretary of the Treasury, he Under-Secretary for the
  1452
  Colonies, and, he thought, by the present Chairman of Committees. That being so, they were entitled to a full explanation of why they now thought fit to ask the House to give it a Second Reading. He was aware that this Bill differed in certain particulars from that of last year, but nevertheless the principle was absolutely the same.
  MR. MCKENNAsaid there had been no change in their views on this point. Last year the question which was raised caused a considerable discussion at the time.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: I think the hon. Member will find that he is referring to the year before last.
  MR. MCKENNAthought the hon. Gentleman was wrong. As a matter of fact the controversy no longer existed owing to the change which had been made by last year's Bill. The present Bill was very simple. The hon. Gentleman knew that there had been a reduction in the tea duty. The Tynwald Court had by resolution made a similar reduction. What was proposed by the Bill was simply to make the reduction in the Isle of Man the same as in this country.

  MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1:—
  MR. BYLEShoped the Committee would permit him briefly to make one or two general observations before he moved the Amendment he had on the paper, [cries of " Order " and "Chair."]
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member can only speak to his Amendment.
  MR. BYLESsaid the Committee would remember that the hon. Member in charge of the Bill had risen night after night and cast certain reflections upon the opponents of the Bill, and that they had no opportunity of replying.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must move his Amendment.
  MR. BYLESsaid he was only excusing himself for not having replied before. He wished to move to insert words which would provide that unless a person knew that he was committing an illegal act he should not be penalised. He had always regarded it as a principle of English law that a man must be considered innocent unless it was proved to the contrary. The Bill proposed to reverse that.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 6, after the words last inserted, to insert the words ' which he knows to be pirated.' "—(Mr. Byles.)
  Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
  MR. HARWOODsupported the Amendment. He objected to this interference with criminal law being made upon the initiative of private Members. It was a very serious step to take against persons belonging to the poorest and least educated class to put them in the dock and say, " we assume you guilty unless you prove your innocence." That was the essence of the Bill. The present was the fourth Bill which had been introduced on this subject, but it was the first which had contained this clause. On a previous occasion a Grand Committee had unanimously struck out the provision. They were, asked to stretch the principles of English criminal law, which they ought not to do unless for very good reasons shown, and they were asked to do so in the interests of a trade which was in the hands of a syndicate. [" No."] Oh, yes, it was; and unless they were careful they would take from the English public the supply of cheap music. ["How about the composer? "] He did not object to the interests of the composer being guarded, but he objected to
  1454
  attempts to stifle discussion. If the Government were prepared to say that they would be responsible and if they recommended the House to make this departure, he would say no more. The real person who should be struck at was the producer of the pirated music and not the hawker, but if a Liberal Government were prepared to take upon themselves the responsibility for this interference with individual freedom, Liberals like himself would sit still.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir JOHN WALTON,)said the objections of hon. Members seemed to be to matters rather of form than of substance. He would remind the Committee of the exact scope of this proposal. The Bill provided that if a man was found in possession of property which should upon examination evidence that it was of a pirated character, he should be called upon to explain how that property came into his possession, and if that explanation was unsatisfactory, and if he failed to remove the natural suspicion which his conduct aroused, he could not complain if penalties were inflicted upon him. The Bill was exceptional, but the circumstances were exceptional, and analogies for this kind of treatment were to be found in the Acts dealing with the possession of stolen property, in the Food and Drugs Act, the Merchandise Marks Act, and other Acts where the onus was thrown upon the defendant of explaining his position. If in this case the hawker proved that he was ignorant of the character of the music then his explanation would be accepted under the Bill. Appeal was made to the general principles of law, but there was a very strong recommendation of the Committee to the effect that as a prisoner could now give evidence on his own behalf, and as it was open to him to prove whether he was innocent or not, and the way in which the property came to be in his possession, the burden of proof that he did not know that the music was pirated and could not with reasonable care have ascertained that the music was pirated should rest upon the accused. The conclusion of the Committee was affirmed by two London police magistrates, Mr. Rose and Mr. Dickinson, and also endorsed

  1455
  by Sir Harry Poland, who was an expert in criminal law and a great stickler in regard to all matters of criminal jurisprudence.
  MR. LUPTONsaid the Attorney-General started by saying that the Bill was an exceptional one and wound up by saying that it was in accordance with general law. He did not see how those statements could be reconciled. The hon. and learned Gentleman talked about stolen property, but this was not a case of that sort. Let them take the case of a patent; the patentee or those interested had to pay so much to the Government and spend thousands of pounds in developing the invention, and yet in that case there was no criminal remedy against an infringer, but only a civil remedy. Hon. Members had said that there was no difficulty in enforcing the law against those who were guilty of selling pirated music. If so what was the use of passing this Bill? A great deal of music was registered as copyright which was not copyright. What they did was to apprehend a hawker for selling pirated music and before the case came on go down and register the piece of music at Stationers Hall. That should have been done before. He had been told by hon. Members that if a man got hold of a piece of music which had not the publisher's name on it the music was pirated. He tested that by going to a stall, and the first piece of music he purchased, and he purchased it for 2d., was " Kathleen Mavourneen." If hon. Members would look at the piece of music which he held in his hand they would find it had not the publisher's name on it, neither was it copyright. It was sung when he was a child and its composer was long since dead. There was nothing to prove whether that was copyright or not, and yet the poor man who was taken up had the onus put upon him to prove that it was not.
  MR. LLOYD MORGANsupported the Amendment. He said the clause was one he had always taken exception to. He suggested that the Amendment was one of substance and that the Committee had not had adequate time to discuss it. On the whole he was in favour of the Bill, but his view was that
  1456
  the onus of proof should be on the prosecutor. If a charge was brought against a man it was the duty of the prosecutor to establish the offence and not the accused person's duty to establish his innocence. It seemed to him that the Government were taking rather an extraordinary line with regard to the Bill. Three years ago it was introduced by Mr. Galloway and was sent to the Grand Committee on Law. The words now objected to were in the Bill, and after full consideration the Grand Committee came to the conclusion that they ought to be struck out and that the onus of proof should remain on the prosecutor. That Bill was defeated. The late Government then introduced a Bill and accepted loyally the decisions which the Committee upstairs came to. They assumed that the Committee upstairs had gone carefully and fully into the matter, and that their deliberations were of some value. The Bill, which provided that the onus should be on the prosecution was not proceeded with because of lack of time. Then the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool introduced a Bill this session, incorporating all the objectionable features that the Committee upstairs had struck out of the previous Bill. The penal clauses were much more severe, the right of appeal to quarter sessions was absolutely taken away, and the onus of proof was thrown on the prisoner. If the Bill was going to be in the stringent form in which it was now it was much more important that the onus should be on the prosecution. Why should not the prosecution have to establish the guilt of a prisoner in the same way as in all other cases? In the case of a man charged with receiving stolen goods it had to be shown, not only that the goods in his possession were stolen, but that he well knew them to have been stolen. Why should not the same provision be made in regard to pirated music? He was not at all satisfied with the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman that any man who had pirated music in his possession would know it, or he could go into the witness box and establish his innocence. The hon. and learned Gentleman had referred to the fact that some of the magistrates had given evidence in favour

  1457
  of such a Bill. That evidence, however, did not amount to very much. He agreed that Mr. Rose was a great authority, and if he had made any emphatic statement upon the subject it would influence his view; but the question—a very leading one—put to Mr. Rose, was, " What do you say with regard to that? " So far as he understood, the Departmental Committee had got a copy of the Bill which was introduced in the House of Lords containing this clause, and they put it in the hands of the witnesses, who were asked their opinion about it. Mr. Rose replied—
  " I think that under the circumstances the onus of satisfying the court could he put upon him without any great injustice."
  He asked any fair-minded man whether that statement of Mr. Rose's entitled him to be called as a witness in support of this contention.
  SIR JOHN WALTON: Read on.
  MR. LLOYD MORGANsaid the next question put to Mr. Rose was, " Do you think it is desirable that the onus should be put upon him? " and the answer was " Yes." He was not saying that the gentlemen who signed the Report were guilty of so distorting Mr. Rose's evidence as to attribute to him something he did not say, but he was showing the weakness of the evidence in support. It was said that various other authorities were in favour of it, and very likely they were. Sir Harry Poland was a great authority, but he seemed to have a weakness for wishing to throw the onus on to the prisoner rather than on the prosecution. Sir Harry Poland was entitled to hold the views he did, but although he would take his opinion with regard to most questions in criminal matters he declined to accept it in reference to this matter. The Committee would be making a mistake if they refused to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend. If they relaxed this principle of requiring the prosecution to establish the guilt of the prisoner in these small matters, the tendency would be to drift in that direction in larger matters.
  MR. BERTRAMthought the consideration of this Amendment might be combined with the consideration of another Amendment standing in the name of the Home Secretary which he understood would be accepted and which would make a substantial difference in the treatment which would be meted out to these hawkers of pirated music when charged with the offence. As the clause was drawn a hawker was liable even on a first conviction to imprisonment, but the Home Secretary's Amendment substituted a fine for a first offence. It was very plain that the man who was found in possession of pirated music knew it was not honestly come by. There could be no question of piracy in the case of " Kathleen Mavourneen," the copyright of which expired years ago. He thought it would make very little difference in most courts of justice whether the words of the Amendment were inserted or not. He did not believe any substantial injustice would be done to hawkers, because there would be a certain amount of sympathy on the part of magistrates, who must feel that they had not got hold of the real offender. At the same time it was plain that the vendor of pirated music must of necessity make his purchase under circumstances which ought to put him upon suspicion, and although they could not get hold of the real offender they were anxious to give to musical composers the only protection which was possible.
  MR. CREANsupported the Amendment. He could not understand how any hon. Member who knew the effect of exceptional legislation in Ireland could propose it under this Bill. In Ireland every man on his trial was considered to be guilty before he stood in the dock. This Bill proposed exceptional legislation against the poorest of the poor, men who sometimes could not read the very name of the song they were trying to sell. A man might be deprived of making an honest living because he was afraid to sell a piece of music on which there was no publisher's name. They were dealing with men who were incapable of defending themselves and could not afford to employ solicitors. They were beginning

  1459
  on the lowest rung of the ladder and letting the real culprits off.
  MR. J. D. WHITEsaid he should like to support this Amendment because it seemed to him that this was emphatically a case in which they ought to follow the ordinary rule of criminal law, that it ought not to be for the accused person to prove his innocence, but for the prosecution to prove his guilt. In his opinion there ought also to be an express provision requiring the prosecution to prove that the music was copyright, and that it had been registered as copyright before the alleged offence was committed.
  MR. MORTONsaid he had not opposed this Bill up to the present stage. This was a clause in regard to which there had been no Second Reading debate, and there had been no defence of it except by the Attorney-General. He should like to know from the head of the Government whether they were to be advised to pass this exceptional law whereby in future a citizen would be adjudged guilty unless he could prove his innocence. That was an exceedingly serious matter. He was surprised to find some of the representatives of Ireland supporting that proposal in view of what their country had suffered under exceptional laws. The Attorney-General's speech was very half-hearted; he was apparently speaking from a brief. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said that the same sort of law existed with regard to the adulteration of food. Evidently he knew nothing at all about that, for, as a matter of fact, the vendor of adulterated food had to be proved guilty. He should like to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Liberal Government were going to take the responsibility of introducing a law into this country whereby an innocent man charged with an offence would have to prove his innocence. Even the Tory Party last year, wicked and bad as they were, did not dare to propose any such proceedings. Were Liberals going to be worse than Tories? God forbid that he should see anything of the sort.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid the objection to the clause as it stood was that it might operate harshly towards hawkers who were unconsciously selling pirated music. He asked the Home Secretary whether some distinction could not be drawn between the producer and the seller. If that could be done the objection to the clause would be removed. He spoke as one of the backers of the Bill, but his sympathies were altogether with this Amendment.
  THE HOME SECRETARY (Mr. GLADSTONE,)said he was unable to accept the Amendment. It would greatly weaken the effect of the Bill. It was in this matter as in the case of coining. It was comparatively easy to lay hold of the man who passed false coin, but it was very difficult to lay hold of the man who coined it. If they exempted the hawker the difficulty of dealing with piracy would be greatly increased. It was well known that a regular business in pirated music had grown up in the last year or two. It was confined to a certain class, and they knew perfectly well what they were doing. He felt certain that if a change was made in the law the offenders would disappear.
  MR. BYLESsaid that after the explanation given by the Government he must divide the Committee. He thought the defence of the clause as it stood was so extraordinarily weak as to constitute an argument in favour of the Amendment. The hon. and learned Gentleman began by saying that every piece of pirated music had evidence of piracy stamped upon it, and then he turned round and said there was no stamp at all. But he admitted in his next sentence that the clause was exceptional—that unless a man could prove that he was innocent he was guilty. The Attorney-General had said there were two precedents for this, one of them being the Adulteration Act. [" Divide."] If that was so then for God's sake let them not establish another precedent. [" Divide."] Or he would say with a great literary authority that " the law is a Hass." [" Divide."] He proposed to take this

  1461
  one division so far as he was concerned. He wished to say that he had as much sympathy with the suffering composer under the present law as any Gentlemen around him, but there was one thing he would not consent to, even if he stood alone in the House of Commons, and that was to menace the liberties which had been fought for and won by our forefathers. [Ironical cheers.] That was not nonsense. If hon. Members would read their own history they would find that former Parliaments, even centuries ago, had been ready to defend those liberties which were attacked in this Bill. He appealed to those who represented labour — pure labour — to defend the principle that a man should not be put into the dock to prove that he was innocent.
  MR. O'HAREsaid he regretted exceedingly to differ from some of his colleagues on this question. He considered that, notwithstanding all the strong speeches they had heard, a sufficient case had not been made out to justify drastic legislation of this kind. If this legislation did not apply to Ire-
  land he would give no opposition to its applying to England, Scotland, and Wales. But unfortunately it did apply to Ireland. According to the common law of the country the Crown was under the necessity of setting up a case that the man charged with an offence was likely to be proved guilty; but according to this Bill a man was compelled to prove his innocence before any man had established his right to the copyright of certain pieces of music. He contended that the general feeling was that nineteen persons charged with an offence should escape rather than that one innocent person should be convicted.
  MR. LYELLsaid he thought a way out of the difficulty would be to put in some words providing that a man would be prosecuted if he sold music without the authority of the composer or the publisher.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided; Ayes 71; Noes 213. (Division List, No. 220.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Haslam, Lewis (.Monmouth)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central

  Brace, William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Branch. James

  Hodge, John

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

  Brigg, John

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Richardson, A.

  Burnyeat. W. J. D.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W

  Levy, Maurice

  Seddon, J.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Summerbell, T.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Crean, Eugene

  Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Delany, William

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

  White, J. D(Dumbartonshire)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  White, Patrick (Meath. North)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  William J. (Glamorgan)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Wilson,J. W. (Worcestersh, N.

  Fullerton. Hugh

  O'Grady. J.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

  Gill, A. H.

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Winfrey, R.

  Glover, Thomas

  O'Mara, James

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Mr.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Byles and Mr. Harwood.

  Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork,N.E.)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Astbury, John Meir

  Acland-Hood.Rt.Hn.SirAlexF.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balcarres, Lord

  Agnew, George William

  Armitage, R.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Banbury, Sir FrederickGeorge

  Halpin, J.

  Radford, G. H.

  Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Barrie,HT.(Londonderry, N.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Beale, W. P.

  Hazleton, Richard

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Beaumont,Hubert(Eastbourne

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Rees, J. D.

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt

  Henry, Charles S.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Benn,W.(T'w'tHamlets,S.Geo

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon.. S.)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Hervey,F. W.F.(BuryS. Edm' ds

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Bertram, Julius

  Higham, John Sharp

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Billson, Alfred

  Hogan, Michael

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)

  Hope, W. Bateman(SomersetN

  Robinson, S.

  Boland, John

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Runciman, Walter

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Russell, T. W.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Jenkins, J.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bryce,J.A.(InvernessBurghs)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Jones. William (Carnarvonshire

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Buxton,Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Cairns, Thomas

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Campbell, Rt.Hon. J. H. M.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  King. Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Carson, Rt.Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Causton.Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

  Lambert, George

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lamont, Norman

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Smiht, Abel H. (Hertford,East

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Leese, Sir JosephF.(Accrington

  Smith, F.E. (Liverpool,Walton

  Clough, W.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Coats,SirT.Glen(Renfrew,W.)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulhp (Chesh.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Lever, W.H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

  Starkey, John R.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Maclean, Donald

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Corbett,C.H.(SussexE.Grinst'd

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  M'Crae, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Courthope, G, Loyd

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cox, Harold

  M'Killop, W.

  Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Crombie, John William

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Crossley, William J.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset,E.

  Cullinan, J.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Massie, J.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Meagher, Michael

  Tomkinson, James

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Ure, Alexander

  Duckworth, James

  Menzies, Walter

  Valentia, Viscount

  Duffy, William J.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Verney, W. F.

  Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall

  Mond, A.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Mooney, J, J.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Elibank, Master of

  Morse, L. L.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Murray, James

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Essex, R. W.

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Nicholls, George

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthn

  Ferens, T. R,

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Norman, Henry

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Woodhouse, SirJ.T.(Huddersfd

  Findlay, Alexander

  Nuttall, Harry

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Fletcher, J. S.

  O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

  Younger, George

  Forster, Henry William

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Ginnell, L.

  O'Dowd, John

  Pease.

  Gladstone.Rt.Hn Herbert John

  O'Malley, William

  Gulland, John W.

  Paul, Herbert

  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, line 7, leave out the words, that he acted innocently,' and to insert
  1464
  the words, ' as to any pirated copies that he had taken reasonable steps to ascertain whether the said copies were pirated, and did

  1465
  in fact believe that they were not pirated, and as to any plates that he had taken reasonable steps to ascertain whether the said plates were intended to be used for the purpose of printing or reproducing pirated copies, and did in fact believe that they were not intended for that purpose.' "—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)
  Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part."
  MR. LUPTONsaid the Amendment appeared to him to make the Bill worse than before. They first put a man in the dock and then made their case out of his mouth. In the debate just concluded the Committee had discussed the question of the accused man having to prove his innocence, but by this Amendment not only was the onus of proving his innocence placed upon the accused man, but he had to take a particular course, he had to prove that he had taken reasonable steps to ascertain whether the said copies were pirated.
  SIR JOHN WALTONsuggested that the Amendment should be withdrawn. He pointed out that they had discussed whether the onus should be cast on the person prosecuted, that he should prove that he "obtained it innocently" and those words covered every conceivable case.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid he would certainly withdraw the Amendment on the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. LUPTONsaid the great difficulty in this case was to know who was the owner of the copyright. He thought that should be ascertained before the prosecution was started. This Bill gave the owner of a musical copyright an extremely drastic method of procedure, and therefore he thought they should provide, as he did by his Amendment, an authorised prosecutor. The promoters of this Bill only desired to get the best price for the music. It was not in the interest of the composers as had been suggested, otherwise the promoters would have agreed to his suggestion that they should put in a clause that there
  1466
  should be no prosecution unless it was proved that the composer was getting something out of the music. When such drastic methods of procedure were allowed to the owners of copyright the public should also be protected.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR, on a point of order, said the hon. Gentleman for the last ten minutes had been discussing everything but the Amendment.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Gentleman was certainly not in order in discussing the question of the price of music.
  MR. LUPTONsaid he would conclude by saying that this drastic criminal procedure should only be applied when there was an authorised prosecutor to conduct the prosecution.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, lines 8 and 9, to leave out from the word ' conviction,' to end of line 9, and to insert the words ' if the prosecution is instituted by an authorised prosecutor.' "—(Mr. Lupton.)
  Question proposed, " That words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid the Amendment he had put on the paper showed that he was in favour of the first part of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment, He was opposed to the latter part, which he thought was quite unnecessary. It was necessary, however, to leave out the words he proposed to leave out because they included the Channel Islands, which were not included in the existing Act, and therefore they made nonsense of the Bill. Another reason was that the Government's relations with the Channel Islands were of a somewhat delicate nature, and it was customary in such cases to refer the matter to them.
  Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put, and negatived.
  Question, " That the words 'if the prosecution is instituted by an authorised

  1467
  prosecutor' be there inserted," put, and negatived.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words, ' imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a term not exceeding one month, or to.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)
  Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
  MR. LUPTONmoved an Amendment with the object of making the penalty, he said, fit the offence. To summon a hawker and fine him £5 was tantamount to sending him to gaol, because he would be unable to pay the fine. If the maximum as he proposed were £1 and 2s. for each copy over ten copies, and £5 for each plate in respect of which the offence was committed, the Bill would be a little more reasonable. The fines he proposed would be quite sufficient to prevent a repetition of the offence, it would make conviction much easier, and cause a great deal less hardship.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 12, to leave out from beginning of line to the word ' Any,' in line 14, and to insert the words, ' not exceeding one pound and two shillings for each copy over ten copies, and five pounds for each plate in respect of which the offence is committed.' "— (Mr. Lupton.)
  Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid he thought the Bill as it stood was much better.
  MR. LUPTONsaid it seemed a most abominable law to pass. He little expected that the Ministerial side of the House would have been in favour of such drastic laws. He sincerely hoped the Committee would not pass a clause imposing a penalty of two months imprisonment for selling a piece of music. The selling of a piece of music was not a bad thing in itself, but was a good and meritorious act.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSmoved to leave out from " pounds" in line 14 to the end of the clause. He was in favour of the Bill so far as it was for the protection of musical composers. He was only sorry they were by this Bill getting at the poor people who were trying to make a living, perhaps with a very inaccurate knowledge of the subject. It was a very tall order to say that a man was to be taken into custody without any warrant if he happened to have in his possession in a public place any pirated music at all. They would not be punishing the real offenders. He protested strongly against the principle in this clause, and it would be perfectly inconsistent, after having struck out the possibility of imprisonment for the first offence, to leave in the words he asked the Committee to reject.
  MR. J. D. WHITEseconded the Amendment. He considered that the proposal for arrest without warrant was quite unjustified. There was no provision that the copyright should be registered, and even if there were, a great many bogus copyrights had been registered. How could a constable form an opinion as to whether a given piece of music was copyright or not? If there was to be any such provision as these words proposed, he would make two suggestions. In the first place there should be proof that the copyright had been registered, and, secondly, there should be a request by the owner of the copyright that the alleged offender should be taken into custody, so that if the arrest had been wrongful, the man who had been wrongfully arrested should have every facility for obtaining damages from the person who had abused the law.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, line 14, to leave out from the word 'pounds' to end of clause."—(Mr. Samuel Evans.)
  Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  SIR JOHN WALTONsaid that it appeared to him that a hawker was a person whom it would be difficult to

  1469
  arrest unless they gave some discretion to the constable to take him into custody. If the aggrieved person had to apply to the magistrate for a summons, and had then to return to the place where he last saw the hawker, he might find that the hawker had gone away. The figures before the Committee showed how difficult it was under the legislation of 1902 even to serve the first process in the step by which a conviction was sought to be secured.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid there were 5,000 or 6,000 summonses taken out by the Musical Copyright Association and only 278 were served.
  SIR JOHN WALTONsaid those engaged in the trade were perfectly well aware of the character of the music they were selling. They were persons against whom no civil proceedings could be brought. [An HON. MEMBER: Deal with their licences.] They had no licences, and the only way of making criminal proceedings effectual was to give the constable in this case the discretion, which he already possessed under various Acts of Parliament, to arrest without warrant. If a hawker were asked to go to the police station and if he could show to the inspector that he was a respectable man, and had a good answer to the charge, he did not think he would be detained in custody. He, therefore, trusted the Committee would refuse the Amendment.
  Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The " Ayes" have it. [Some HON. MEMBERS: The Noes have it."]
  THE CHAIRMANcalled upon the Home Secretary to move the next Amendment. [Renewed cries of " The Noes have it.]
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he had declared " The Ayes have it," and he was really very sorry that he did not hear the cries of " The Noes have it."
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he heard the cries.
  MAJOR SEELYsaid he also heard the cries.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I am not disputing in any way that there were cries. What I said was that the cries did not reach me nor, I may add, those sitting near me.
  MR. CREANmoved to report progress.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Crean.)
  MR. GLADSTONEappealed to the hon. Member not to press the Motion.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 45; Noes, 191. (Division List, No. 221.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlexF.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Seddon, J.

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Hodge, John

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Sullivan, Donal

  Brace, William

  Lupton, Arnold

  Summerbell, T.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cooper, G. J.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Delany, William

  O'Mara, James

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Forster, Henry William

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Hardie,.J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Crean and Mr. Patrick White.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Gulland, John W.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Agnew, George William

  Halpin, J.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Connor. T. P. (Liverpool)

  Armitage, R.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Arnold-Forster.Rt.Hn.HughO.

  Hazelton, Richard

  O'Dowd, John

  Astbury, John Meir

  Hedges, A. Paget

  O'Malley, William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Paul, Herbert

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

  Pollard, Dr.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Higham, John Sharp

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)

  Beale, W. P.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Radford, G. H.

  Beaumont,Hubert(Eastbourne

  Hogan, Michael

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Beaumont. W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Benn, W. (T'wrHamlets.S.Geo.

  Jenkins, J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Redmond. William (Clare)

  Bertram, Julius

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Billson, Alfred

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Richardson. A.

  Black, Alexander Win. (Banff)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Boland, John

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Branch, James

  King, Alfred John(Knutsford

  Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Brooke, Stopford

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Robinson, S.

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

  Lambert, George

  Rose, Charles Day

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Lamont, Norman

  Russell, T. W.

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn.Sydney Chas.

  Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

  Samuel. S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Scarisbrick. T. T. L.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

  Seely, Major B.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Levy, Maurice

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Clough, W.

  Lundon, W.

  Sloan. Thomas Henry

  Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew,W.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Macdonald, J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs

  Stanley, Hn. F. Lyulph(Chesh.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Maclean, Lonald

  Starkey, John R.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  M'Crae, George

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Corbett,C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstd

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

  Courthope, J. Loyd

  M'Killop, W.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Crombie, John William

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Thompson. J. W. H. (Somerset,E

  Crossley, William J.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Tomkinson, James

  Cullinan, J.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Ure, Alexander

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Verney, F. W.

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Marnham, F. J.

  Walton. Sir John . (Leeds, S.)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Wedgwood. Josiah F.

  Duckworth, James

  Massie, J.

  White. George (Norfolk)

  Duffy, William J.

  Meagher, Michael

  White, Luke (York. E.R.)

  Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Menzies, Walter

  Whitley. J. H. (Halifax)

  Elibank, Master of

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Essex, R. W.

  Mond, A.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Montagu, E. S.

  Wilson. P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Morse, L. L.

  Wood. T. M'Kinnon,

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Murphy, John

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Younger, George

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Nicholls, George

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Ginnell, L.

  Norman, Henry

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerberJohn

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Pease.

  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, line 16, after the word ' who,' to insert the words ' in any street or public place.' "—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)
  Question put, " That those words be there inserted."
  THE CHAIRMANnamed Mr. Whiteley And Mr. Joseph Pease as Tellers for the Ayes; but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, the Chairman declared the Ayes had it.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSmoved to insert after the Home Secretary's Amendment the word " knowingly." A person should not be convicted, in his judgment,
  unless he knowingly committed an offence.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, line 17, after the words last inserted, to insert the word ' knowingly.' "— (Mr. Samuel Evans.)
  Question put, " That the word ' knowingly ' be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 40; Noes, 190. (Division List No. 222.)

  AYES.

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Hodge, John

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Seddon, J.

  Branch, James

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Summerbell, T.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Murphy, John

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Crean, Eugene

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Delany, William

  O'Mara, James

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Pollard, Dr.

  Samuel Evans and Mr.

  Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn

  Arthur Henderson.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Ridsdale, E. E.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex F.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Hazleton, Richard

  Agnew, George William

  Clough, W.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew,W.)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Armitage, R.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hervey,F. W. F. (BuryS.Edm'ds

  Astbury, John Meir

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Balcarres, Lord

  Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinstd

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hogan, Michael

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Crombie, John William

  Hunt, Rowland

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Crossley, William J.

  Jenkins, J.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cullinan, J.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Beale, W. P.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Beaumont,Hubert (Eastbourne

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Duckworth, James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Benn,Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

  Duffy, William J.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Benn,W.(T'wrHamlets,S.Geo.)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Bertram, Julius

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Elibank, Master of

  Lambert, George

  Billson, Alfred

  Essex, R. W.

  Lamont, Norman

  Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Law, Hugh N. (Donegal, W.)

  Boland, John

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Leese,SirJosephF. (Accrington)

  Brace, William

  Forster, Henry William

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Brigg, John

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lever, A.Levy(Essex,Harwich)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, W.)

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Ginnell, L.

  Levy, Maurice

  Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Gladstone, RtHn.HerbertJohn

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lundon, W.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Gulland, John W.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Halpin, J.

  Macdonald, J.M(FalkirkB'ghs)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Maclean, Donald

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  O'Dowd, John

  Smith, F.E. (Liverpool,Walton

  M'Crae, George

  O'Malley, William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Paul, Herbert

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Starkey, John R.

  M'Killop, W.

  Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Radford, G. H.

  Straus, B.S.(Mile End)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

  Mansfield, H. Kendall (Lincoln)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Thompson,J. W. H.(Somerset,E.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Tomkinson, James

  Massie, J.

  Ronton, Major Leslie

  Ure, Alexander

  Meagher, Michael

  Richardson, A.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Verney, F. W.

  Menzies, Walter

  Roberto, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Robertson, Sir G.Scott(Bradf'd

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Mond, A.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Montagu, E. S.

  Robinson, S.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Morse, L. L.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Newnes, A. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Russell, T. W.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Nicholls, George

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Williams,Llewelvn(Carmarth'n

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Williams, Col. R (Dorset, W.)

  Norman, Henry

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Norton, Capt, Cecil Williams

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton underLyne

  Younger, George.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Pease.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry '

  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, line 17, to leave out the words ' pirated music,' and insert the words ' such copies as aforesaid.' "—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)
  Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put, and negatived.
  Proposed words inserted.
  Motion made, and Question put,. " That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 205; Noes, 22. (Division List No. 223.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, W m. (Cork, N.E.)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall

  Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex.F

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Agnew, George William

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Elibank, Master of

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cairns, Thomas

  Essex, R. W.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Armitage, R.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO.

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Ferens, T. R.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Balcarres, Lord

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Forster, Henry William

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Clough, W.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Ginnell, L.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Gladstone, Rt.Hn. Herbert J.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Gulland, John W.

  Beale, W. P.

  Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Halpin, J.

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

  Benn, Sir J.Williams(Devonp't

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Crombie, John William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Bertram, Julius

  Crossley, William J.

  Hazleton, Richard

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Cullinan, J.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Billson, Alfred

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.

  Helme, Norval Watson.

  Black, Alexander. Wm. (Banff).

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay(Galway

  Henderson. Arthur (Durham)

  Boland, John

  Duckworth, James

  Henry, Charles S.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Duffy, William, J.

  Herbert, Col. Ivor(Mon., S.)

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds)

  Meagher, Michael

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Menzies, Walter

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Hogan, Michael

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Scott,A.H(Ashton under Lyne)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Mond, A.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Montague, E. S.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Jenkins. J.

  Morse, L. L.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Murphy, John

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool,Walton.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Nicholls, George

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Norman, Henry

  Starkey, John R.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  King, Alfred J. (Knutsford)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Nuttall, Harry

  Sullivan, Donal

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)

  Summerbell, T.

  Lambert, George

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Lamont, Norman

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Tennant.Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  O'Dowd, John

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset

  Lehmann, R. C.

  O'Malley, William

  Tomkinson, James

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Ure, Alexander

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Paul, Herbert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Levy, Maurice

  Pearce, Robers (Staffs, Leek)

  Verney, F. W.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Walton, Sir J. L (Leeds, S.)

  Lundon, W.

  Pollard, Dr.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Price, C. E. (Edinbugh, Central)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Radford, G. H.

  White, Luke (York, E.D.)

  Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Maclean, Donald

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Wilkie, Alexander

  M'Crae, George

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Williams.Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  M'Killop, W.

  Richardson, A.

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.D.)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Robertson,SirG.Scott (Bradf rd

  Younger, George

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Robinson, S.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Mason, A. E. W (Coventry)

  Russell, T. W.

  Pease.

  Massie, J.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  NOES.

  Brace, William

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Branch, James

  Hodge, John

  Seddon, J.

  Brigg, John

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonsnire)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Byles, William Pollard

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Cooper, G. J.

  O'Hare, Patrick

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  O'Mara, James

  Crean and Mr. Patrick

  Delany, William

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn

  White.

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Clause 2:—
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid he had a number of Amendments to the clause on the Paper and he would state their general purport to the Committee. The clause dealt with the question of search warrants, and in the opinion of the Government it was too drastic. All the Amendments standing in his name must be taken together. The object was to prevent a constable from entering
  1478
  premises by force without a search warrant properly granted. In the second place the Amendment would allow a constable who had a search warrant to seize any pirated music found on the premises, and he was not confined to those pieces which might be specified. The Act as it stood enabled a constable to break into a house and seize the pirated copies of a particular piece of music without a search warrant, but

  1479
  the seizure was restricted to the copies of that specified piece.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 18, to leave out the words ' Any constable authorised by an order of,' and insert the word ' if.' "—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)
  Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. O'HAREsaid the fragmentary way in which the Amendments appeared gave the Committee no idea of what actually was going to be the effect of the Amendments. He did not think it was fair to ask them to approve of a clause as to which they had no exact indication of the effect it might have upon the unfortunate people who might come within its meshes. On these grounds he would ask to report progress.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he could not reasonably accept the Motion after so recent a division upon a similar Motion.
  MR. CREANsaid these appeared to be rather drastic Amendments tacked on to a most drastic clause. The first clause was bad and was not much improved by the Amendments inserted. It was impossible to realise what the effect of Clause 2 would be. They were asked to swallow this gilded pill, and the gilt that was put on might be worse than the ingredients. Would the Secretary of State for the Home Department explain what the effect of the clause with the Amendments would be.?
  MR. GLADSTONEread the clause in the form in which he proposed to amend it.
  Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause," put, and negatived.
  Proposed word " if " inserted.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, line 19, leave out the words from ' jurisdiction,' to ' between,' in line 21, and
  1480
  insert the words ' is satisfied by information on oath that there is reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence against this Act is being committed on any premises, the court may giant a search warrant authorising the constable named therein to enter the premises.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, lines 22 and 23, to leave out the words ' enter any house or place named in such order.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 1, line 23, after the word 'necessary ' to insert' to.' "—(Mr. Gladstone.)
  Question proposed, " That the word ' to ' be there inserted."
  MR. O'HAREsaid an Amendment in his name had priority, and he desired to ask the Chairman whether each Member had not an equal right in this House.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he had not examined whether the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman could have been proposed, but he thought the Amendments of the Secretary of State were generally accepted, and that all the other Amendments would not be moved. In any Case he had passed the point of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment and he could not go back to it now.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 25, after the word 'otherwise,' to insert the words ' and to seize any copies of any musical work or any plates in respect of which he has reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence against this Act is being committed.
  (2) All copies of any musical work and plates seized under this section shall be brought before a court of summary jurisdiction, and if proved to be pirated copies or plates intended to be used for the printing or reproduction of pirated copies shall be forfeited and destroyed or otherwise dealt with as the court think fit.' " —(Mr. Gladstone.)
  Question put, " That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 216; Noes, 3. (Division List No. 224.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Morse, L. L.

  Acland-Hood,RtHn.Sir Alex.F

  Forster Henry William

  Murphy, John

  Agnew, George William

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Ginnell, L.

  Nicholls, George

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

  Armitage, R.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Norman, Henry

  Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO.

  Gulland, John W.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Balcarres, Lord.

  Halpin, J.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Hardie, J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Nuttall, Harry

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Barron, Rowland Hirst

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Beale, W. P.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Dowd, John

  Benn, Sir JWilliams(Devonp'rt

  Henry, Charles S.

  O'Malley, William

  Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo.

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon. S.)

  O'Mara, James

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Hervey, F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Bertram, Julius

  Higham, John Sharp

  Paul, Herbert

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Billson, Alfred

  Hodge, John

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)]

  Hogan, Michael

  Pollard, Dr.

  Boland, John

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Price, E. E. (Edinburgh, Cen.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hunt, Rowland

  Radford, G. H.

  Brace, William

  Jenkins, J.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Branch, James

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Brigg. John

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Brooke, Stopford

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Brotherton, Edward Allen.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhamt'n

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Richardson, A.

  Byles, William Pollard

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Cairns, Thomas

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Cecil, LordJohn P. Joicey-

  Lamont, Norman

  Roberston,SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Robinson, S.

  Clough, W.

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew,W.

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich

  Russell, T. W.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Rutherford, W. W.(Liverpool)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Levy, Maurice

  Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)

  Cooper, G. J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lundon, W.

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Corbett,CH(Sussex,EGrinst'd.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton und. Lyne)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Seddon, J.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Macdonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Maclean, Donald

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down.S.)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Crombie, John William

  M'Crae, George

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Crossley, William J.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Stanley, Hn A. Lyulph (Chesh)

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Starkey, John R.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  M'Killop, W.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Delany, William

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Summerbell, T.

  Duckworth, James

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

  Duffy, William J.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Dunn, A. Edward(Camborne)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Thompson, J. W.H.(Som'set,E.)

  Dunne, Maj. E. Martin(Walsall

  Massie, J.

  Tomkinson, James

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Meagher, Michael

  Ure, Alexander

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Elibank, Master of

  Menzies, Walter

  Verney, F. W.

  Essex, R. W.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Mond, A.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Younger, George

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'th'n)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.

  Pease.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  NOES.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Patrick White and Mr.

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Crean.

  Motion made, and Question, " That this House do now adjourn,"—(Mr. Whiteley)—put, and agreed to.

  Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3:—
  Amendments made.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORmoved an Amendment to exclude appliances used for playing mechanical instruments from the expressions " pirated copies " and " plates." He said this proviso was proposed in consequence of an engagement he had made to those interested in the gramaphone and other instruments who thought that their property would be imperilled by this Bill. There was no such intention.
  Amendment proposed—
  " In page 2, line 4, at end, to add the words ' provided also that the expressions " pirated copies " and " plates" shall not, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to include perforated music rolls used for playing mechanical instruments, or records used for the production of sound waves, or the matrices or other appliances by which such rolls or records respectively are made.' "—(Mr. T. P. O'Connor.)
  Question put, '' That these words be there added."
  MR. LUPTONsaid it was hardly creditable to the House that they should pass a Bill which imposed penalties on certain music sellers and exempted others from the penalties.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4:—
  MR. O'HAREmoved that Clause 4 should not apply to Ireland. No
  1484
  evidence had been produced that there was anything of the kind referred to Ireland, He was therefore surprised that the Government wanted to apply this new crime to Ireland and to thrust into the hands of the police of Ireland the power to break open doors with a power of search and all the rest of it. He believed that if these new powers were applied to Ireland they would produce consequences greater than were intended to be removed.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that the speech of his hon. friend did not represent the views of the majority of the Irish Members, because while the pirate musical trade was at present absent from Ireland, the consummation they were bound to wish for was that it should be avoided in their country. Therefore, if a division were taken, the immense majority of the Irish Members would vote in favour of the clause.
  MR. CREANsaid that the great majority of the Irish Members were opposed to anything approaching coercion in Ireland. And they objected to these additional powers being given to the police in Ireland. How many times had they come to this House and opposed the action of the police in using their weapons against the people of the country? [Ironical OPPOSITION laughter.] That might be a matter of laughter for hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House, but he would be very sorry to give more power into the hands of the police in Ireland. The Amendment proposed that Ireland should be left out of the operation of this Bill. This was not the first time that a

  1485
  request had been made for the exclusion of Ireland from the operation of a Bill applicable to the rest of the United Kingdom. He had no particular interest in this Bill; but what he and his friends asked for was that the Government should not give more power to the police for coercion work in Ireland. They were dealing with men who had created crimes in Ireland, and why should they give them facilities to create more crimes? [OPPOSITION cries of " Order."] He was order. Rightly or wrongly, the House would have to judge whether they took a serious view of this matter. He did not accuse the Chairman of anything worse than a lapse of memory in ruling that an Amendment previously moved was out of order.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member must not discuss the Chairman's conduct of business. The particular Amendment in question was out of order.
  MR. CREANsaid he was only saying that the particular Amendment was omitted by the Chairman's action, but he did not accuse him of doing it intentionally. He did not accuse the Chairman of doing anything wrong or discourteous, but they had not had the opportunity of speaking to the Amendment which was put down. He thought they were justified in asking that this Bill should not apply to Ireland.
  Question put.
  MR. O'HARErose to speak but—
  THE CHAIRMANpointed out that the hon. Member was not entitled to address the Committee except on a point of order, and then he must be seated.
  MR. O'HARE, speaking seated and with his hat on, amidst laughter, said he hoped that hon. Members would have nothing more extraordinary to laugh at.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member could only speak to a point of order.
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  What he was talking about was not a point of order.
  MR. O'HAREsaid he begged leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member need not cry " Aye " when the Amendment was put, and it would be negatived, but he could not withdraw it at that stage.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause 4 agreed to.
  MR. O'HAREmoved the following new clause, " The Act shall not apply to any musical copyright which is not registered in terms of the Copyright Act 1842, and no proceedings shall be competent in respect of any offence committed prior to such registration." He objected to plaintiffs bringing an action and then only registering the copyright. A man should, he thought, establish a claim to copyright before he took proceedings.
  New Clause—
  " This Act shall not apply to any musical copyright which is not registered in terms of The Copyright Act, 1842, and no proceedings shall be competent in respect of any offence committed prior to such registration."—(Mr. O'Hara).
  Brought up and read a first time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the clause be read a second time."
  MR. LUPTONthought the new clause was a reasonable one. If a man did not register his copyright at Stationer's Hall until he brought an action no opportunity was given for investigation.
  SIR JOHN WALTONsaid the Government had considered the suggestion and had come to the conclusion that it was unwise and unnecessary because it would cast an unnecessary burden upon the owners of this species of copyright property. Copyright in this country

  1487
  might be held without registration, but if proceedings were proposed to be taken it became necessary that the copyright should be put upon the register. It would put the owners of this class of copyright in a serious difficulty if the clause were adopted, and especially the owners of the copyright of foreign music. Under the Berne Convention we were bound to extend to foreigners the same copyright as they extended to us. If we insisted upon their registering all their songs and music as they wrote them, it would be held we were casting a new and unjustifiable burden upon them.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 311.]

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Adjourned at six minutes after Three o'clock a.m.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—Sutton District Water.
Also the Certificate that no Standing g Orders are applicable to the following Bill:— Local Government Provisional Order (No. 10).
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:—South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company.
The same were ordered to lie on the e Table.
London Squares and Enclosures Bill [H.L.]. The Marquess Camden consented to the Bill.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill—(Barton-upon-Irwell Order). A petition of Messrs. Baker and Company of 54, Parliament Street, Westminster, Parliamentary Agents, praying for leave to present a petition of the Barton-upon-Irwell Rural District Council, praying to be heard by council against the Order, although the time limited by Standings Order No. 93 for presenting such petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table, and Standing Order No. 93 to be considered To-morrow in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said petition.
South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill. Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Thursday next.
Derby Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments.
Buckhaven, Methil, and Innerleven Burgh Extension Bill [H.L.]. Reported with Amendments.
Water Provisional Order Bill. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the Promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill; The orders of the 29th of June and Thursday last discharged. Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
Great Northern Railway Bill. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The orders made on Tuesday and Thursday last discharged, and Bill committed for To-morrow.
South Lincolnshire Water Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of March last, " That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed.
London Squares and Enclosures Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
London United Tramways Bill. Watford Gas Bill. Twickenham and Teddington Electric Supply Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Devon, etc.) Bill [H.L.]. Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Kesteven, etc.) Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Newport Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
Scottish Union and National Insurance Company Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Cheltenham Gas Bill. Huddersfield Corporation Bill. London and South Western Railway Bill. London County Buildings Bill. Metropolitan Water

1243
Board Bill. North East London Railway Bill. Peterborough Gas Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of March last, " That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Order of the day for the Third Reading read.
Moved, "That this Bill be now read 3a"—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, the object of my Amendment is to reinstate in the Bill the clauses which were struck out by your Lordships' Committee, giving powers to the London County Council to establish an ambulance service. These powers were unanimously granted in the House of Commons, and when the matter was before the London County Council there was almost unanimity with regard to the suggestion; at all events, the scheme as put forward by the London County Council, and as it came before the Committee of the House of Lords, was not divided against. Your Lordships Committee, of course, is as much entitled to its opinion as the Committee of the House of Commons, but I would venture to suggest that where you have something like unanimity in the London County Council with regard to a particular measure and where you have a Committee of the House of Commons unanimously approving of the proposal, there ought to be rather strong reasons given for your Lordships differing both from the London County Council and from the House of Commons.
I confess that from one point of view I rise with some reluctance to propose this Amendment. I do not wish in any way to damp the ardour for economy that has been shown by the noble Earl opposite, and by other noble
1244
Lords on that side of the House lately when discussing the London County Council Money Bill. I am exceedingly glad that that Bill should have been discussed in your Lordships' House, and I am delighted to find that many noble Lords on the opposite side are now advocates of economy and sound finance. I have no doubt that this championship of economy on Lord Camperdown's part will be as permanent as it is sincere, and that when the time comes for his own Party to be in office he will make suggestions to them and criticise their proceedings in the same impartial spirit. With regard to this suggested ambulance service, I have had some difficulty, after reading with great care the evidence placed before your Lordships' Committee, in understanding the reason why the Committee disapproved of the proposal, and that is partly the reason why I have put down this Amendment. I wish to give the noble Earl an opportunity of stating the views he holds on the matter. I cannot quite make out whether the noble Earl objects to this expenditure because it is too small or because it is too large. I imagine that the position of the noble Earl is this, that the London County Council ought to have taken one of two courses. It ought either to have gone in for a complete system, or it ought not to have asked for any powers for an ambulance service at all.
I quite admit that there is something to be said for the London County Council providing London with a complete ambulance service, but you must recollect that the circumstances of London are some what peculiar. We have in London various voluntary bodies which to a certain extent do provide ambulance facilities, and we felt that if we rushed in and covered the whole field, probably those voluntary systems, if they did not cease to exist altogether, might dwindle, and then the ratepayers would be saddled with the whole cost of the ambulance service. Our proposal is to spend only £5,200 for the first year on the ambulance service. It was suggested in the Committee, and it has been suggested on the London County Council that we ought to be in a position to know exactly how much it is proposed ultimately to spend on this system. As to that it is almost impossible to give a trustworthy estimate, but we have done

1245
our best. The noble Earl had has a witness before his Committee, Sir Shirley Murphy, our principal Officer of Health. Sir Shirley Murphy gave a detailed statement with regard to the possible cost of an efficient ambulance service of twenty-one stations in London, in the event of the total failure of the voluntary help which London now receives.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The noble Lord will remember that that was, as Sir Shirley Murphy admitted, a rough estimate of his own. It had never been tested in any way.
LORD MONKSWELL: I know it was a rough estimate, but Sir Shirley Murphy, who is the principal officer in this matter, prepared the estimate to the best of his ability after going carefully into the matter, and I do not suppose that if we had another estimate it would differ very much. I would venture to suggest that in this matter the question of the coordination of our expenditure hardly arises. In the first place, the expenditure is by no means big. We ask only for £5,200 for the first year, with a possible increase to £30,000. This possible increase to £30,000 is the outside estimate, for it is certain that the City will have its own ambulance service, and we have offers of motor ambulances from voluntary associations. Surely, in a question of this kind it is very difficult to wait until we have coordinated all our expenditure.
We have done our best for three or four years to suggest to other people that they should supply London with an an efficient ambulance service. They have never done so, and the result is that the ambulance service in London is now certainly very inefficient. As to that I think there can be absolutely no doubt in the minds of those your Lordships at all events were members of the Committee, and noble Lords who know the circumstances will admit that our witness, Sir William Collins, did not exaggerate Sir William Collins was asked by Mr. Lushington to tell their Lordships what these voluntary associations were, and he replied—
" There is the St. John's Ambulance Association, the British, the Bischoffsheim Ambulance Service or the Hospitals' Association, the
1246
Volunteer Medical Staff Corps, and the Police. Certain boards of guardians, certain hospitals, and one or two railway companies have ambulances of their own, and there are one or two trading companies that supply ambulances. I can state to their Lordships, if they desire, what the various voluntary associations do. The St. John's Ambulance Association deals with the training of men in the work of first aid and ambulance work; they have some twenty-five ambulance stations in London, with litters and stretchers, and other ambulance appliances, but with three exceptions there are no men on duty at those stations. The three exceptions are, at St. John's Gate, St. Paul's Cathedral, and St. Clement Danes; but I believe there are not men on duty constantly throughout the night at those stations. Then there is the Bischoffsheim Service, which is a branch of the Hospitals' Association, and was established in 1890 by Mr. H. L. Bischoffsheim, which service consists in placing hand ambulances and stores at various fire brigade stations and cab ranks, which are available for use by the police, who have a key to the station; but no one is on duty there to work the ambulance. The Volunteer Medical Staff Corps is primarily a military organisation, which on special occasions like public processions attends to casualties and accidents which occur in the streets. The County Council on several occasions of public processions has worked in association with them, in providing temporary shelters and accommodation. Then the police possess hand ambulances and wheeled litters; but they have no hone ambulances in constant readiness; the only horsed ambulances are at Rochester Row Police Station, Carter Street and Stoke Newington, and those apparently are not kept in readiness, and the arrangement for hiring hive to be made by the individual who desires the use of the ambulance. They were originally private property, but they have been taken in hand by the police."
The Metropolitan Asylums Board has been approached with a view of supplying the want. The Metropolitan Asylums Board deals principally with infectious diseases, and I should have thought it extremely desirable that ambulances for infectious diseases should be under absolutely different management from other ambulances, or, at all events, that the same staff should not deal with one as deals with the other. The Metropolitan Asylums Board sent to the County Council a communication on February 27th, 1904. They were then contemplating extending their ambulance service, which had hitherto been chiefly confined to the removal of cases of infectious disease. But their extension was not to include dealing with street accidents or casualties, and they proposed to make a charge of 7s. 6d. in respect of each removal. Therefore what they had in view was not to meet the general case

1247
Then my noble friend Viscount Knutsford was approached. He is connected with the St. John's Ambulance Association, and he expressed his desire that we should proceed and improve the ambulance service of London. Sir Kenneth Barrington, who was then actively connected with it, expressed similar views, and Mr. Bischoffscheim, of the Hospitals Association, has always been favourable to our proposals and has himself offered to provide motor ambulances if the Council is entrusted with the power of mantaining them. Such is the position with regard to the ambulance service in London.
Now, let us see how far that service is efficient. Sir William Collins went very carefully into that. He said that in four weeks he had evidence of some 1,949 cases in the chief London hospitals, and that deducting those which arrived on their own legs and taking only those that came in some kind of conveyance or other, there were 947 more or less serious casualty cases and cases of illness, and only 289, or about 31 per cent., were brought to the nine hospitals in any kind of ambulance, while more than two-thirds arrived in hansoms, four-wheelers, vans, or other unsuitable means of conveyance. Then, again, he made further investigation at the London Temperance Hospital from August, 1901, to January, 1902. He found that out of 203 cases conveyed to the hospital otherwise than on their own legs, 48 were brought in four-wheeled cabs, 102 in hansoms, 22 in vans or carts, 3 in bath-chairs, one in a barrow, 19 in ambulances, and 8 on hand-stretchers; so that 150 cases out of 203 arrived in cabs. And he added—
" I have known many cases of unnecessary pain and danger and injury result from putting patients with injured limbs or with undetermined internal injuries into four - wheelers or hansom cabs."
Sir William Collins also stated that communications had been received from Hammersmith, Fulham, Battersea, Poplar, Wandsworth, Greenwich, Bethnal Green, Finsbury, Woolwich, Lambeth, Hackney, and Kensington urging the council to consider the desirability of establishing an ambulance service for London; and that the Council had also received deputations from medical men, including the president of the College of Physicians,
1248
the president of the College of Surgeons, and many other medical men, who urged it to proceed on the lines on which the Council was now asking Parliament to give it power. It cannot, in these circumstances, be urged that it is not necessary to improve the ambulance service in London.
Let me ask your Lordships to consider what has been done by other municipalities in providing ambulances. Sir William Collins was asked by Mr. Lushington to give the various large towns where there was a service now in the hands of the municipal authorities, and he replied—
" There are rapid ambulance services at Liverpool, Birkenhead, Manchester, Oldham, Bradford, Newcastle, Huddersfield, Bolton, Blackburn, Bristol, Gateshead, Burnley, Hull, Sheffield, Leeds, and Wolverhampton, worked in association with the fire brigades in some cases, but in all cases, I believe, under municipal control."
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Those are all police authorities.
LORD MONKSWELL: That is perfectly true, but I do not quite see what that has to do with London's not having an efficient ambulance service. Is London to wait until the police are under the control of the County Council before it has an efficient ambulance service? I am of opinion that the police should be under the County Council, but I do not think we should wait until then before we have our ambulance service put into an efficient condition. Moreover, we do not think that the police are the proper body to have control of this service.
The Committee over which my noble friend Lord Camperdown presided has succeeded in pleasing nobody, but in displeasing everybody by the- decision at which it has arrived. The City only opposed our scheme on the ground of rating. They did not object to establishing a service in London so long as they were not rated. I believe we can come to a satisfactory arrangement with the City with regard to expense. I do not think that blocks the way at all. The proposal, I believe, is that in so far as the City ambulance service is satisfactory the City should be given a certain grant. At all events, I understand that the City is perhaps as much distressed as any one that these clauses have been

1249
struck out. I have merely to say, in conclusion, that, although I know that your Lordships are not very ready to interfere with the decisions of your Committees, it did appear to me that this was a matter of so much public importance that it was my duty to obtain a statement from the noble Earl as to the reasons why his Committee came to the decision to strike out these Clauses.
Amendment moved.
" In the preamble, page 3, line 36, after the word 'made' to insert ' and whereas it is expedient that the council should be empowered to establish and maintain, or to contribute toward or otherwise aid in the establishment and maintenance of an ambulance service for dealing with cases of accident and illness in the streets and other public places in the county.' "
" In Clause 2, page 6, line 13, after the word 'Drainage' to insert 'Part IV.— Ambulance Service.'; in page 6, line 14, to leave out ' IV. ' and to insert' V. '; in line 15, to leave out 'V.' and to insert ' VI.'; in line 17, to leave out' VI.' and to insert ' VII.'; and in page 19, line 5, after the word ' works ' to insert ' Part IV.—Ambulance Service.' 24. It shall be lawful for the council to establish and maintain, or to contribute towards the cost of or otherwise aid in establishing and maintaining; an ambulance service for dealing with cases of accident and illness in the streets or other public places in the county. 25.—(1) The council may for the purposes of this part of this Act, and as and when they may think requisite for carrying such purposes into effect: (a) Appropriate, hold, and use any lands or buildings for the time being vested in ' them for any purpose for which such lands or buildings are not required; (b) take on lease, purchase by agreement, or otherwise acquire any lands or buildings within the county;(c)erect., or cause to be erected, and maintain, repair, and manage on any lands so appropriated or acquired any buildings suitable for the said purposes; (d) adapt, furnish, and equip any buildings so appropriated, acquired, or erected. (2) The council may from time to time sell, lease, or let any lands or buildings accquired by or vested in them for the purposes: of this part of this Act, and not required for such purposes. (3) The council may for the purposes of this part of this Act contract with any company or persons for the establishment and maintenance of telegraphic, telephonic, or other suitable means of communication: between the several buildings used for the purposes of this part of this Act, and between any of such buildings and other parts of the county. 26.—(1) For the purposes of this part of this Act the council may employ and pay such officers and servants as they may I think expedient for the efficient conduct of the service authorised by this part of this Act. (2) The council may from time to time provide and maintain such ambulances and other vehicles to be drawn by hand, or by animal or electrical or other mechanical power, as they
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may think requisite for the accommodation and conveyance of persons meeting with accidents or seized with illness in the streets or public places in the county. Provided that any electrical power used for moving any such vehicle shall be entirely contained in and carried along with such vehicle in such a manner that no magnetic or other influence is created which is likely to affect injuriously any telegraphic line of the Postmaster-General.— (Lord Monkswell.)
LORD LEIGH: My Lords, it is greatly to be hoped that your Lordships will accept the Amendment which has just been moved by the noble Lord opposite. It is recognised that a rapid ambulance service, motor or horse, is wanted for London, in place of the hand-litters and four - wheeled cabs which at present constitute the only service to convey wounded persons to the hospitals or to their homes. That conveyance in four-wheeled cabs causes intense agony, and very frequently turns an ordinary fracture into a compound fracture, is the opinion of many medical authorities, among others Sir William Church, and it may be mentioned that many of the most eminent medical practitioners in London have formed themselves into a body under the name of the Metropolitan Street Ambulance Association, their object being to revise the ambulance service of London.
No other city at all approaching London in size is now without a rapid ambulance service. The system originated in New York, and rapidly spread to Boston and Washington and all the principal cities of the United States, and then it was adopted in Paris, Berlin, and Vienna, and, as the noble Lord has informed us, it has been copied in very many provincial towns and cities. One thing about the ambulance service to be noted in London is that in only three police stations are there any horsed ambulances available, and they can only be obtained on payment. When once you get to payment, and the wounded person has to wait until the money is found for his removal, the system falls to the ground. It is also to be noted that the London County Council only adopted the idea of rapid ambulances when it had been rejected by all the other public bodies in London. It was not only refused by the hospitals; it was refused by the police, by the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and by the

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Fire Brigade, and then at length the London County Council adopted the idea. As regards the City, as my noble friend mentioned, the City has a system of its own in contemplation, and there is no sort of reason why the London County Council should not work harmoniously with the City. It is greatly to be hoped that the Amendment of my noble friend will meet with the approval of your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, as I was Chairman of the Committee which rejected this proposal put forward by the London County Council, your Lordships will no doubt expect me to say a few words in explanation of the course which we pursued. But before I do so I must take exception to a remark made by Lord Monkswell at the close of his speech to the effect that the City Corporation were displeased at this scheme's being rejected. I do not know what authority the noble Lord has for making that statement. I can only say that their representative spoke to me as I was coming into the House in quite a contrary sense. The noble Lord seems to forget that the City Corporation appeared in opposition to the scheme, and that if the scheme had not been rejected their opposition would have had to be heard and was directed to the principle of the Bill. They said that they themselves had a scheme, not merely in contemplation but in a more advanced stage than this proposed scheme of the London County Council, and they objected. They stated that they had already 1,400 police who would administer a scheme of ambulances in the City, and they objected to being rated also as part of the County of London for this purpose.
The noble Lord omitted to state one thing which is very relevant indeed, and that is that the Home Office is opposed to the scheme. A report by the Home Office, dated March 6th, was laid before our Committee objecting to this scheme. It is an official report, and the Home Office states that it is a question whether additional facilities required would not be more efficiently and economically provided by the development of the existing services. The Home Office goes on to say that ambulance litters on wheels are provided at every police station, and that the
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Secretary of State is informed that no difficulty is experienced by the police— and remember the police are the persons who come first into contact with accidents —in dealing promptly with cases of accident or illness in the streets. It would in any case, the Secretary of State thinks, be undesirable to have two public services covering almost exactly the same ground each acting independently of the other. The Secretary of State pointed out in this connection that the police were obviously in the best position for dealing with such cases, as they were on the spot and could attend to them without delay, and that the police service could be extended without much difficulty and expense by the provision of additional ambulances. Therefore the Home Office is opposed to the scheme, and I understand that the Home Office is on the point of communicating with the County Council and suggesting a conference with, them on this matter.
Now, my Lords, let us come to this Bill, because it is the Bill that we are dealing with and not the general question of ambulances. Everybody desires to have a good ambulance service, but the question is, by whom is it to be provided, and whether or not the proposed scheme is a good one. That is what came before the Committee. Let me tell your Lordships, in a few words, what has happened in Parliament in regard to this matter. Last session the London County Council made up their minds that they would proceed with a Bill, and their General Purposes Committee put forward a proposal to have one principal and seven district stations, which were to cost something like £13,000 a year. The Finance Committee asked them if they could give any estimate as to the ultimate cost, and they replied that they could not. The Finance Committee thereupon requested them to prepare such an estimate. What did they do? They merely dropped the whole matter for six months and then brought up this Bill, which contained a proposal for two stations—not eight—at a cost of £5,000 a year. It is pretty obvious what the reason of that proposal was. I asked Sir William Collins whether he could say that it was a satisfactory proposal or one that could last for any time, and he said—
" No, it is only a tentative proposal that will cost £5,000 a year."

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He was then asked whether the Finance Committees were satisfied, and he said they had passed it, but were not, perhaps, entirely satisfied. Then I asked—
" Why did you propose eight stations last year and only two now?"
He replied that perhaps their scheme of the year before had been too ambitious. Then I asked whether this had any reference to the pecuniary objection which the Finance Committee took the previous year, and he replied—
" Yes, it has some reference to it, but it is not the special or, indeed, the only cause."
The London County Council propose to have two stations. They say they cannot give an exact estimate of what they are to cost, and they have no notion of what their scheme is ultimately to be. Indeed, they could not give us the faintest estimate of what the ultimate cost would be; and when the noble Lord says it may possibly ultimately cost £30,000 a year, I would point out that there is no reason, so far as this Bill was concerned, why the Council should not expend ,£300,000 a year if they saw fit.
Let us take the clauses. The noble Lord spoke about their intention to have two stations. That may be their intention, but that is not what is in the Kill. The clause which the noble Lord wishes to insert provides that—
" It shall be lawful for the Council to establish and maintain or to contribute towards the cost of or otherwise aid in establishing and maintaining an ambulance service."
That is all that is stated. They may use any lands or buildings for the time being vested in them for any of the purposes of the Bill, and they may erect or acquire any buildings suitable for the purpose. This is done out of revenue, and your Lordships will remember that all expenditure out of revenue by the London County Council is not subject to the approval of Parliament. I asked one of the witnesses—Sir William Collins, I think it was—whether they would not require land for this purpose and to expend capital. He replied that it was a revenue expenditure. I said—
" Surely a great deal of this is capital expenditure,"
and he replied that the Council had the land already. I asked him how he was going to provide buildings out of revenue, and
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he said they would be temporary buildings. He admitted that this was only the first experiment of a scheme, and he could not give me any estimate whatever, or any conjecture even, as to what the scheme was to be or what it was to cost.
I think I have said enough to show your Lordships that it was impossible to pass a scheme of this sort. There is no detail of any kind. This is a fair sample of the way in which the London County Council go about their business. The Highways Committee appoint a subcommittee to consider this matter; the subcommittee put forward a proposal; the Finance Committee object; the Highways Committee then withdraw the proposal for a time and again put forward a similar proposal, but when it comes to drawing up a Bill they take powers to incur any amount of expenditure which may seem fit. I do not see how a Committee of your Lordships' House could have passed such a scheme. That was our reason for rejecting it.
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: My Lords, after what has been said by the Chairman of the Committee before whom this Bill was considered, your Lordships can hardly be asked to differ from the decision of the Committee. As one who has been interested for a long time in the ambulance service, having been Chairman of the St. John's Ambulance Association for some years, I should like to offer one or two observations and to suggest a matter for consideration during the ensuing year. I think it must be admitted on all hands that in a city like this, where the population is increasing by leaps and bounds, where the traffic also is increasing to such a great extent, and where there are accidents, not only every day or every hour, but every minute, in the streets, it is not creditable that we should be in a worse position than all the other great cities to which reference has been made, and that we should have no organised system of ambulances. I see great difficulties in handing this work over to the County Council, for the reasons which have been stated by Lord Camperdown, as well as that they have quite enough work on their hands.
But what I desire to have considered is whether there should not be a Bill introduced next year creating an ambulance board on which would be represented

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the Order of St. John of Jerusalem, all the hospitals and those other societies and associations that have supported ambulances, as well as representatives of the City and the Metropolitan boroughs, and the police. I think if you had an ambulance board of that kind it would have a double effect. In the first place, it would lessen expense by establishing an organised system, instead of having an overlapping of work by different bodies, and, in the second place, you would interest the public in the system, and thus, it may be hoped, lessen the expense of the Board by subscriptions from outsiders. I hope this suggestion may be taken into consideration, and that next year a Bill will be introduced with the assent of all who are interested in this very important question, and will receive the sanction of Parliament.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, I think I need only say one or two words about this Bill. At any rate, your Lordships will have gathered from the tenor of this debate that there is no difference of opinion on either side of the House as to the desirability of having an efficient ambulance service in London. The noble Earl the Chairman of the Committee stopped counsel and witnesses who were arguing in favour of an ambulance service by saying they were all agreed on that. The question before them was, who should provide an efficient system, and who should pay for it. Lord Leigh said that neither the police nor the fire brigade would have anything to do with it. I hope we shall hear a word presently from the noble Earl who represents the Homo Office in this House as to what are the views of the Home Office on the subject.
The question asked by Lord Monks-well, " Why should London wait? " is one which has been put to us on many other points, and I think it was the tenor of the debate a few nights ago in your Lordships' House that the tendency of the London County Council is, if anything, one of rather too great speed. I cannot help thinking that the London County Council and the question generally will take no harm by waiting until another session of Parliament. It seems to me that the proper course would be that some ommunication or conference should take
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place between the Government Department which has control of the London Police, the London Fire Brigade, and the-London County Council themselves, and if they see fit either to come to some arrangement for a joint management of the ambulance system or for the creation of an ambulance board, that will, I think, be a more satisfactory solution of the question than by rushing the matter in at this moment, and inserting these clauses, the financial effect of which is not at all agreed. I sincerely hope your Lordships will take time to consider the matter, and that we may have a well-matured and well-considered scheme for dealing with it next year.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, on behalf of His Majesty's Government I am unable to advise your Lordships to agree to the proposal of the noble Lord to reinsert the clause in the Bill. Your Lordships know quite well that it is within the power of this House to take such a step, but it would be a very unusual course to take on an occasion like the present. The chairman of this particular Committee is well known as one of the most experienced and careful Members of your Lordships' House, and His Majesty's Government, therefore, are unable to advise your Lordships to reverse the decision to which his Committee came. I venture to hope that the House will follow the same course with regard to another Amendment which is to be moved by the noble Earl (Lord Wemyss).
On behalf of the Home Office I have to say that in their opinion the scheme has not yet received that mature consideration which it should have before complete power is given to the London County Council in the matter. In the opinion of the Home Office another scheme for supplying ambulances to this city should not duplicate the present system, but rather supplement it; but under the clauses which were struck out of this Bill it was in the power of the London County Council to sweep aside the other agencies which exist at the present time and establish an entirely new system The opinion of the Secretary of State is that it would be better to follow the line of developing the present resources rather than by a revolutionary change to inaugurate an entirely new

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system. At the same time, the Home Office are not of opinion that improvement is impossible in this matter. They recognise fully that other countries have, perhaps, better ambulance services than we have, and they would be very anxious indeed, in co-operation with other public bodies which take an interest in the subject, to do what they could to improve the service in London.
I am afraid I cannot quite agree with the noble Lord who drew a somewhat melancholy picture of the condition of London at the present time in the matter of its ambulance service. There is a considerable amount of provision made already by the Metropolitan police; there are ambulances on wheels at every police station throughout the Metropolitan police district, and, further than that, there are also the necessary appliances for rendering first aid to the injured, and a very large number of the Metropolitan police force have obtained certificates from the St. John's Ambulance Association which enable them to render that first aid. I think it is a matter of great satisfaction that no leas than 6,082 members of the police force should be qualified to render first aid. Beyond that, I may say there are 240 litters at police stations, and forty other similar ambulances and appliances are placed in other central positions. The police stations do provide special facilities in the case of injured persons, because they are able, with the aid of the telephone, to get into direct communication with the hospitals, and warn them to prepare for really dangerous cases.
I do not think that in discussing the question of the ambulance service your Lordships should be allowed to forget that, in addition to those I have already mentioned, there are a very large number of ambulances which deal only with cases of infectious disease. Those are the property of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and some 32,000 people made use of them during the year 1904. Those two services are entirely distinct, and the litters which are used by the Metropolitan police are never used for the cases which come under the purview of the Metropolitan Asylums Board. In looking at the ambulance provision of London as a whole, one should not forget the large
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number of ambulances in the possession of the Metropolitan Asylums Board.
The Secretary of State is of opinion that the time has come when further steps might well be taken in order to improve the present condition of the ambulance service, and he has, therefore, summoned a conference of the three bodies concerned—the London County Council, the Metropolitan police, and the Home Office—to consider what should be done in order to effect this improvement. It is not unlikely that a Committee from these three bodies will be formed to deal with the question as a whole, and to formulate some scheme. Meanwhile, it obviously would be unwise for your Lordships to interfere with any such scheme by reintroducing the clauses which the noble Lord wishes to restore in this Bill. I venture to hope, therefore, that your Lordships will not concur in the noble Lord's suggestion, and that next year, by the consent of all the bodies interested, a thoroughly sound system will be introduced which will meet with the approval of everyone concerned
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Might I suggest to the noble Earl, with reference to his last statement, that the Home Office should call the City Corporation into the conference? At the present time, according to their own statement, the City have a scheme which is in a somewhat advanced condition.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I will communicate that suggestion.
LORD MONKSWELL: As to my statement that the City authorities were in favour of my Amendment, I think I ought to mention that I obtained that information from persons who I thought were likely to know, and looking at the evidence I find the statement by Sir Ralph Littler, on behalf of the City, that rating is the only question at issue between the City and the London County Council, and that if the question of rating was settled the City would be willing that the London County Council should have these powers. Therefore I had every justification for my statement as to the position of the City. I think this discussion has done a great deal of good. I am very glad that the Home Office are going to call this

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conference, and I am sure it can only have this result, that next year the London County Council will be able to set up an efficient ambulance service. I cannot agree with the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees that we on the London County Council are in this matter going at too great a speed.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I did not say in this matter.
LORD MONKSWELL: I rather thought the noble Earl said that this was an instance of our going at too great a speed. Twelve months' delay will undoubtedly cause a great deal of preventable misery. I suggest that the Home Office are a little sanguine in supposing that the police deal in anything like an efficient manner with the provision of ambulances in cases of accidents. There is not one horsed ambulance under the command of the police which has persons in constant readiness to take charge of it. I hope the Home Office will not hug themselves with the belief that there are not very great improvements to be introduced into the present police scheme. It has also been suggested that we intend to sweep aside all the voluntary bodies which at present provide ambulance accommodation. The proof that we do not intend to do so is that we have specially committed ourselves on the Council only to spend £5,200 in the course of the first year. We intend to work as much as we possibly can in co-operation with the voluntary associations. In the circumstances, I will not press my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I move to leave out Clauses 27, 28, and 29 in Part V. Your Lordships had on this day week a very interesting, and, I hope, a very useful, discussion with regard to the Money Bill of the London County Council. In the Bill now before you there are three clauses which embrace the principle of municipal trading, and it is to these clauses that I specially direct your Lordships' attention. I think the clauses are objectionable as regards the private trader and as regards the ratepayer, and that they are not in the
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interest of the progress of the nation. As regards the private trader, if this Bill were to pass as it now stands it would practically oust all those who have to do with electrical fittings and wiring. It is proposed that fitting and wiring should be done by the local authorities.
There is a special clause to the effect that the borough councils are not to manufacture the fittings. But does any sane man doubt that next year or the year following, if you pass this now, there will be a Bill brought in to enable them to make these fittings? I venture to think that it is not in the interests of the nation that private trade should be driven out of the market by municipal or even State trading. That really is what is happening. As regards the ratepayer, he will be in great danger. I am old enough to recollect the day when every town was lighted, not by gas, but by oil. Suppose in those days you had had municipal authorities of the same ambitious character as the County Council. They would have had a fleet of whalers and would have brought their blubber here and made their own oil. Then came gas, and now electricity, and the cost of substituting these different supplies would have been saddled upon the shoulders of the ratepayers.
We are now perfectly satisfied with electric light, but the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition hit the right nail on the head when he said the other day that there is no limit to invention. What will happen? Some unknown illuminant may be introduced, and the electrical plant may become so much dead weight round the necks of the London ratepayers. I therefore venture to think that, in the interests of progress, of free trade, of private trade, and of the London ratepayer, this municipal trading ought not to be allowed. What does this trading mean? You have now at the head of the Local Government Board Mr. John Burns. What is Mr. Burns's view of municipal trading? Why, that everything in the shape of production and distribution should be in the hands of a labour-governed State. Therefore, I hold that every step in this direction is a step in the direction of State omnipotence. During a discussion some years ago at

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the Society of Arts, I put this question to Mr. Burns—
" Do you, or do you not, mean that all the instruments of production are to be in the hands of a labour-governed State?"
Mr. Burns simply bowed his head and said " Yes." Therefore, whatever you do in this direction is leading to this end.
How does this question of municipal trading affect national progress? You are always in the infancy of invention. You have progressed hitherto in this way —Science discovers and invents, and public enterprise has taken up the invention and speculated upon it. But if, when the invention succeeds, it is to be seized by the State progress will be stopped, because if this is generally done no one will take up inventions. Therefore on this ground I respectfully ask your Lordships to reject those clauses. The discussions in your Lordships' House have been most useful in showing up the finance and general proceedings of the London County Council, but you want more check upon the action of that body. I That check ought to have been in the original Act under which they were appointed, The compound householder ought to be got rid of, and then everyone would know what he was paying in rates. This it is impossible to know when the rates are included in the rent. You want an audit of the accounts of these corporations, ' and there ought to have been in the original Act a limit to their rating power. Instead of having their hands in everybody's pockets they ought to have been limited as to the rate they should be entitled to raise. If that had been done, instead of the rivalry which now exists as to which of them should have the biggest concerns, the rivalry would be as to which could do the most with the money at their disposal. There is another suggestion I have to make. It is that when a man has been elected to the London County Council he should have to pass an examination before a Government official in all the matters with which he professes to deal, and that there should be a special examination in shipbuilding and navigation. That strikes me as a very practical suggestion, and I throw it out for the consideration of the Government. These clauses were rejected in 1902 by a Committee of the House of Commons. In 1903 this trading power was again re-
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jected, and, lastly, in 1905 it was rejected by a Committe of the House of Lords. I therefore venture to move the Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved.
" In Part V (Supply of Electric Fittings by Metropolitan Borough Councils), to leave out Clauses 27, 28, and 29."— (The, Earl of Wemyss.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I regret very much that after having been attacked just now from the left wing we are now attacked from the right. I can assure my noble friend that no one is more opposed to municipal trading as such than I am; but, with reference to this question of electrical fittings, it appears to me that it is to be looked at from quite a different point of view. The proposal in the Bill is that distributors of power and light should be allowed to supply the fittings by means of which that power and light are given. The power which we propose is not in any way a power of monopoly as against private traders. When either a private company or a public body distribute electricity, there are certain prima facie reasons why it is more convenient from the point of view of the consumer that they should also have the power of supplying fittings. If these clauses remain in the Bill it will be equally in the power of any consumer, just as at present, to employ a private trader and to have the fittings put in by him. Moreover, in the case of the supplying company or the supplying borough authority trading unfairly, there is an appeal to the Board of Trade, and, as was pointed out to us on the Committee, this has boon found perfectly effectual. With regard to what the noble Earl said in defence of the ratepayers, these clauses were specially drawn by a Committee in a previous session of Parliament to meet objections which had been raised and to prevent the Council in any way putting down the expenditure incurred by them in supplying fittings under such headings as to charge it to their general undertaking. In the first place, there is the security that no council of any Metropolitan borough is to manufacture.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Wait a year or two.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: But this does not apply to these boroughs only. The noble Earl must not suppose for a moment that these powers are being given to Metropolitan boroughs alone. They have been given to a great many boroughs and also to gas companies and other companies of the kind whose supply is to a very large extent connected with the fittings and apparatus by means of which the supply is given. You have to judge a matter of this sort very much on the merits of the particular case, and, with regard to these Metropolitan boroughs, many of the houses are very small—£20, £25, and £30—and there are a great many persons who take a supply of electric power who prefer to hire rather than to purchase. All the evidence before us went to show that the private companies, and even persons who supplied motors, were rather in favour of the purchase system, and were inclined, as far as they could, to encourage that system rather than the system of hire. It was pointed out to us that a great many small manufacturers using electrical energy wished to hire rather than to purchase. It is perfectly true that a Committee of your Lordships' House did reject this proposal, or one almost identical with it, in the last session of Parliament, but I believe I am speaking for the majority of the members of the Committee when I say that, considering all the circumstances of the case, we thought it expedient to allow these clauses to remain in the Bill.
LORD CLINTON: My Lords, the evidence which was brought before us this year was almost exactly similar to that which came before your Lordships' Committee in the year 1905. The witnesses were almost identical, and having served on the previous Committee as well as on this one, I could not detect much difference in the arguments. Yet the Committee of 1905 unanimously rejected the clauses, and the Committee this year, by a majority of four to one, allowed them to proceed. This, no doubt, is but a minor instance of municipal trading, but still the principle remains the same. It is the principle which has been very strongly objected to, not only by Members of your Lordships' House, but by a very large number of people outside, on the ground, chiefly,
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that the gradual absorption of private-trading into the hands of municipalities is likely to produce a very serious evil, and if it becomes more general may lead to the great discouragement of almost all forms of individual effort.
I do not profess to be such a strong opponent of municipal trading as the noble-Earl who has moved this Amendment. I can understand that in certain circumstances municipal trading is both justifiable and advantageous, but I think before the power is given it should be shown that the municipality wishes to embark on trading for the purpose of accomplishing some great public enterprise, and they should also, I think, be able to show that they can do it better than private individuals or public companies But in the case which is now before us there was no evidence of the kind, and my whole point is that these great powers should only be granted by Parliament as an exceptional matter of very great importance. The evidence before us did not show that there was any necessity at all, in my opinion, for these borough councils entering into this form of trading.
The noble Earl who presided over the Committee this year, the Earl of Camper-down, has told us that it would be a great convenience for the public to be able to have their fittings supplied by the same people who supplied the power. I can quite believe that there is a convenience in that, but I do say that the convenience, such as it is, is not sufficient to outweigh the primary objections to the principle of this municipal trading. The London County Council showed in evidence that in certain cases the firms at present engaged in supplying electrical fittings were unwilling or unable to supply them to the smaller class of houses where only some ten or twenty lights were required, and, in particular, that they were unwilling to adopt what is known as the hire-purchase system. I believe that system is a great convenience and is very much desired by a large number of small users of electrical power, but I hold that the firms have a complete answer.
The firms stated that this system had been tried, and they found that it could not, in these particular cases, be carried out at a profit. They found that the attendant risks were too great. There

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was the risk of unpunctuality in payment, and the risk of the purchaser leaving his house and going to another locality before his payments were completed. If private firms have found it impossible to carry on this system at a profit, is it likely that a municipal authority will be able to do so? I do not think our past experience of municipal trading would justify us in coming to such a conclusion, and if the municipal authority cannot carry it on at a profit, ought they to be allowed to risk the ratepayers' money in attempting to do so? I hold that the passing of this Bill, while it would be a danger, would also be a very serious hardship to the large number of respectable firms at present engaged in supplying these fittings; that it would bring them face to face with the serious competition of a municipality which possibly, by the aid of the rates, would succeed in forcing them out of their district with the loss of their capital and without any compensating advantage whatever to the general public.
LORD LEITH OF FYVIE: My Lords, having been a member of this Committee, I would like to explain what influenced me in voting in the way I did. Personally, in a business sense I am opposed to municipal trading. But I think it is a misnomer to say that these clauses come within that category, because they simply continue the process of supplying the consumer and enabling that supply to reach the consumer. In two instances the manufacturers who came before us were quite willing to let the wiring go. They said there was no profit in it. We thought it would be to the benefit of the consumer, both from the point of view of convenience and expense, that this power should be given. I understand that there are several boroughs which have been given the power, and it has been found to work in a satisfactory way. On the other hand, I admit that Glasgow was given the power and has withdrawn it at the urgent request of contractors; but the principle remains the same, that the development of the supply largely depends on the facility with which fittings and wiring are carried out. Therefore we thought it right that the power should be given.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: My Lords, I may perhaps be allowed to
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say a few words on this point, as I was Chairman of the Committee which rejected these clauses last year. I do not know that I should have troubled your Lordships if it had not been for the speech of the noble Lord who has just sat down, which I confess seemed to me to be one of a very alarming character. It appears that the decision which the Committee has come to in this instance is based on the contention that the right of ' supplying the power should always be; accompanied by the right of supplying the fittings.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: It is a concurrent power, not a monopoly.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: Is that the accepted rule, the understood principle, upon which Committees have gone in the past? Is not that an entirely new principle altogether? No doubt in certain instances powers have been given to corporations, but they do compete seriously with the retail dealer. One curious recommendation by which the noble Lord supported these proceedings was that the operations could be carried out much more cheaply for the consumer by the local authorty. What does that mean? It means that the retail dealer is to be unfairly competed with by the local authority, which has means of supplying articles at a lower price than the retail dealer.
LORD LEITH OF FYVIE: I was only referring to the wiring. The contractors themselves acknowledge that there is no money in it, and they do not care about the wiring.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: I understand that the power you will give in these clauses goes as far as the supply of motors also, and I must say I think this is rather an instance of very great abuse in the matter of our Private Bill Legislation. Promoters bring Bills forward year after year. Sometimes the whole Bill, and sometimes clauses of the Bill, meet with rejection at the hands of one or other House of Parliament. The promoters bring the Bills up again and again until at last they manage to do one of two things—either to drain the pockets of the opponents to such an extent that it is no longer worth their while to oppose the proposal, or else by

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some means to induce the Committee to pass and adopt it. There does not seem to be that continuity of policy in our Private Bill Legislation which there ought to be. I do not think it should be in the power of a body like the London County Council to bring forward year after year proposals of this kind, which year after year are rejected. No noble Lord has had more experience as Chairman of your Lordships' Committees than my noble friend Lord Camperdown, whose opinion is, of course, entitled to every respect; but it does seem to me that, perhaps through the case not being fully put before thorn, he and his colleagues have come to a conclusion absolutely opposed to that of four or five other Committees who have sat on this question. I do not think this should be possible, and for that reason, if for no other, it would be advisable for your Lordships to agree to the Amendment to strike out these clauses. I am a little alarmed at the arguments of my noble friend Lord Camperdown, and all the more alarmed because of his tried judgment and great experience in these matters. The noble Earl began by telling us that he was opposed to municipal trading, but that there were exceptional circumstances which now and then must be taken into consideration.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I said in this case.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: One of those circumstances was that the power was not to be a monopoly. But is that the whole objection to municipal trading? Is there no objection to municipal trading unless that trading is a monopoly? The objection to municipal trading is that it competes with fair commercial undertakings. I venture to think that anything approaching retail dealing should only be entrusted to local authorities in the most exceptional circumstances. The noble Earl said that one of the main reasons why these powers should be given to the London County Council was that they supply a large number of very small houses. That is a very wide-reaching reason. It is an argument which may be applied to every city and borough in England, and I do protest most strongly against doctrines,
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even proceeding from the noble Earl, so utterly subversive of what I believe has hitherto been the policy of Parliament.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, the Board of Trade see no reason why electrical fittings should not be sold by municipal bodies. They see no reason why bodies which are authorised to manufacture and sell electricity should not also have the advantage of being able to sell the fittings. In no case will they manufacture them, and, therefore, they will not be competing with private enterprise. My noble friend Lord Wemyss said he was afraid they would next year bring in a Bill for power to manufacture fittings, but I do not think there is any reason to fear that. Nearly every gas company has power to sell fittings, and a great many of the electrical lighting companies in the provinces also have that power. I therefore hope that in these circum stances the noble Lord will not press his Amendment.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I do not think your Lordships need be afraid that in the Chairman of the Committee which considered this Bill you have any dangerous socialist anxious to advocate collective rather than individual doctrines. The noble Earl, with the consent of the majority of his Committee, decided in favour of allowing these clauses, and I gather from the remarks he made that that action was taken on the ground that it would benefit the poorer classes. I have no doubt there is a great deal of difficulty in getting them to adopt any new system unless it is made extremely simple, and if they have to go to two authorities, one to light and one to wire, there is a difficulty in getting them to adopt what undoubtedly they would wish to have. I remember an American friend of mine, commenting on the position of the legal profession in this country, saying that in America they did not have the two classes, barristers and solicitors, because they could not afford there to be lathered in one shop and to be shaved in another. I think that is very much the case here: that these persons prefer to buy their electricity and their fittings from the same body.

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The noble Duke who was Chairman of the Committee last year made some complaint against the course of Private Bill Business in your Lordships' House, and he pointed out that it was the practice to bring in proposals again and again until they were accepted by the House. I hardly think that in this case, at any rate, the argument of the noble Duke has much force, because there are already two metropolitan boroughs supplying fittings, and there are no fewer than forty-two provincial authorities who have clauses which enable them to supply fittings as well as electricity. I venture to think, if we are to refer to precedents, that they are rather on the side of the promoters of this Bill. As I said on the last Amendment proposed to this Bill, I am not one of those who always support a negative answer to the question," Should London wait?" and I do not see why on all . occasions London should come in last in the race. In this particular case I do not think the principle which the House has agreed to in connection with two metropolitan and forty-two provincial authorities is so dangerous that your Lordships may not safely extend it to the other boroughs within the area of the London County Council.
On question, Amendment negatived.
On question, Bill passed and returned to the Commons.

CORPORATION OF LONDON (BLACKFRIARS AND OTHER BRIDGES)BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD WELBY: My Lords, as I am the only member of the Metropolitan Water Board who has a seat in your Lordships' House I have been asked to move the Amendment standing in my name. The object of the clause is the further protection of the Metropolitan Water Board and the gas companies, providing that in the event of damage to certain pipes from electric currents generated and used by the Corporation nothing in the Bill shall relieve the Corporation from the liability to make compensation. This clause was passed in Committee of the other House, and afterwards came up to
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your Lordships and was considered and passed by a Committee presided over by Lord Camperdown. I am under the impression that the clause was passed in your Lordships' Committee as an agreed clause, and I am not aware that any evidence was taken on the point. But after it had been adopted by Lord Camperdown's Committee the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees struck it out.
I know it is a very serious matter for a humble Member of your Lordships' House to ask you to reconsider any point of this kind which has been decided by so high an authority as the Chairman of Committees, but I understand that his decision was taken upon the ground that the clause was contrary to the spirit and intention of the Report of the Joint Committee over which Lord Cross presided some years ago. I am the last person to question the interpretation which Lord Onslow has put upon the practice of your Lordships' House, or to ask you to reverse that which on consideration he has thought proper to recommend; but I would point out how very desirable it is that promoters and those interested in the passing of Bills should know where they are. I should feel that I had no ground whatever for asking that this clause should be inserted were it not that there are so many precedents upon my side.
I believe I am right in saying that since the Report of Lord Cross's Committee no fewer than fifteen different bodies have obtained powers similar to those contained in the clause which the Chairman of Committees struck out of this Bill. It does appear to me that in such a case it is extremely difficult to justify the action of Parliament. The present state of affairs constitutes a hardship on promoters. If the recommendation of Lord Cross's Committee is the right one, and if the regulations made by the Board of Trade are sufficient to meet the case, they should be of universal application. There is no justification for granting one borough this protection and refusing it to another. It is upon that ground that I ask the House to take the question again into consideration, and I hope the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees will reconsider the decision he has come to in this case.
Moved, " After Clause 14, to insert as a new clause: For the further protection of

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the Gas Light and Coke Company, the South Metropolitan Gas Company, and the Metropolitan Water Board, the following provisions shall have effect: If it be proved that an injury or damage to any gas or water pipes or other metallic pipes, structures, or substances of either of the said companies or of the said board elsewhere than on Blackfriars Bridge between the northern and southern abutments thereof shall have resulted from fusion or electrolytic action caused by any currents generated and used by the Corporation for the purpose of electric energy under this Act, nothing in this Act shall relieve the Corporation from any liability to make compensation for any such injury or damage which would have existed but for the passing of this Act."—(Lord Welby.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot ask your Lordships to comply with the request of my noble friend. This matter has been under very careful consideration, and -was brought before your Lordships' House as recently as 1903. The Committee over which my noble friend Lord Cross presided in 1893 was a Joint Committee of both Houses, and had upon it Lord Rosse, Lord Russell, Sir John Brunner and others well versed in scientific matters. It came to the conclusion that this was a question which could safely be left to the Board of Trade, and it recommended a series of clauses to be inserted in every Bill providing that the Board of Trade should make certain regulations which would, in their belief, prevent any damage to the pipes of water or gas companies.
It is quite true that since 1893 a clause similar to that proposed by my noble friend on this occasion has been inserted in some Bills, but not, I believe, since 1903. In that year the Beckenham Urban District Council Bill came up to your Lordships' House with a clause similar to this in it, and a Motion was made that the clause, although it had been considered by a Committee of which the Duke of Bedford was Chairman, should be rejected; and your Lordships, contrary to your usual practice but with the sanction of the then Chairman of Committee, decided that the clause should not be allowed. This has been the practice
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from that time until now, and unless some scientific member of your Lordships' House is prepared to get up and say that the inventions and knowledge of electricity have so altered since 1893 that there is good reason for reconsidering the question, I think your Lordships would do well to adhere to the decision you arrived at in 1903, that in matters of this kind it is safe to rely upon the sufficiency of the regulations of the Board of Trade. So far as I know, the Board of Trade consider that they are quite able to discharge the duties that are to be put upon them, and I ask your Lordships to leave the matter in the hands of the Government Department.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I think this short discussion illustrates, as the noble Duke observed just now, one of the numerous difficulties attending Private Bill legislation. This particular question of electrolysis is one which is perpetually occurring. Only last session the same point was raised in connection with a Torquay Bill, and the proposal was rejected by the House. It is perfectly plain that if the Amendment which the noble Lord has now moved is accepted it will cause additional complications in decisions of this character, and Chairmen of Private Bill Committees have quite enough difficulties to contend with already. If this Amendment is accepted it will create a fresh precedent whenever a Bill is promoted in which the interests of a gas company are affected in any way. In such a case opponents will plead for the recognition of this particular principle. But what I really rose to suggest was that it does seem to mo most desirable that we should, if possible, arrive at what I may term uniformity of decision in such matters. This difficulty with regard to electrolysis will obviously continue to recur, and therefore I suggest that the Board of Trade should appoint a Departmental Committee, or that some similar steps should be taken in order to ascertain the real rights of the question and arrive at a satisfactory decision which shall be a guide to Committees in the future.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, if the Board of Trade adopt the suggestion which has just been thrown out by my noble friend Lord Newton, perhaps they will also inquire into an action of their own

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in 1904, when they granted a Provisional Order containing the very clause which the noble Lord opposite now wishes to insert in this Bill. Although the Board of Trade are put forward as the proper authority to look after this matter they themselves, as recently as 1904, inserted in a Provisional Order for which they were responsible a clause similar to the one which is now thought unnecessary.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): My: Lords, there are two entirely separate; questions before the House at this moment, one dealing with the merits of this particular case, and the other raised by my noble friend, Lord Newton, as to the practice of Private Bill Committees. As regards the practice of Private Bill Committees, I confess I have always felt that there is a certain danger arising out of agreed clauses. It sometimes happens that towards the end of a rather long and wearisome Committee the parties come together and bring up, in an agreeable and smiling manner, a number of agreed clauses which the Chairman of the Committee is very much tempted to adopt, and I think it occasionally has happened ' that somewhat unfortunate precedents have been created by that means. Of course, we look to the Lord-Chairman in such cases to keep a careful watch upon any departure from established precedent, and to deal with it in a manner which he, as an autocrat in those matters, is able to do by striking out anything which he considers objectionable in I itself or creating an undesirable precedent. As regards this particular matter, I think my noble friend behind me was quite justified in bringing it before the House, but, in view of the opinion expressed by the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees, to whom one is always accustomed to look on these occasions, I hope my noble friend will not persist in his desire to reinsert the clause, and that he will agree to accept what I imagine would be the decision of your Lordships' House in supporting the Lord-Co airman in this matter.
LORD WELBY: After what my noble friend has just said I shall not put the House to the trouble of dividing on the the Amendment. I would only remind the noble Earl the Chairman of Com
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mittees that there were fifteen Bills in which this clause was insortod—two in 1900, three in 1901, six in 1903, two in 1904, and two in 1905. I venture to think that that point deserves the attention of my noble friend, as it gives the idea that there is not equal treatment between all parties. I think the suggestion made by Lord Newton is one which is deserving of the attention of His Majesty's Government.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I will look into the precedents since 1903. What I said was that I was not aware that then was any precedent for the insertion of this clause since your Lordships' decision in the full House in 1903. I shall probably find that the cases to which the noble Lord has referred were Provisional Orders, for which my Department is not responsible.
On Question, Amendment regatived.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

RUSSIA AND THE FLEET.
LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, seeing my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his place, I beg to ask whether he is able to give the House any information with regard to the abandonment by the Fleet of the proposed visit to Russian ports.
THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD FITZMAURICE): My Lords, it having been intimated to us by the Russian Government that, in view of the political situation in Russia, the presence of foreign ships in their ports might give rise to agitations and incidents connected with internal affairs, it has therefore been decided not to proceed with the cruise as had been intended His Majesty's Government much regret that this visit of the Fleet has to be postponed, the more so as there would be difficulties in rearranging the remaining part of the programme; and it has therefore been decided to give up the intended cruise to the Baltic altogether, including visits to other ports.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION.
  Petition in favour of denominational religious teaching in schools, of inhabitants of Firle signing; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3667. China (Hangchow).
  No. 3668. Japan (Shimonoseki).
  No. 3669. Brazil (Pernambuco).
  No. 3670. Netherlands (Surinam).

  INEBRIATES ACTS, 1879 to 1900 (SCOTLAND).
  Report of the Inspector for Scotland under the Inebriates Acts, for the year 1905.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Statement showing syllabuses of religious instruction issued by diocesan and other associations for the use of Church of England schools.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Report of the Board of Education for the year 1904–5, on the administration of schools under the Welsh Intermediate Act, 1889.
  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION ACT, 1888.
  Order made by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under the provisions of the above Act, for the variation of an -order for creating the Northumberland Ses Fisheries District.
  Twenty-third General Annual Report "by the Board of Trade, under Section 131 of the Bankruptcy Act, 1883.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated July 11th, 1906, declaring that Hugo Marinitch, C.M.G., Dragoman, His Majesty's Embassy, Constantinople, was appointed
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  without a civil service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his department.

  POLLING DISTRICTS.
  Order made by—
  The council of the West Riding of Yorkshire constituting polling districts in the Elland and Doncaster Parliamentary divisions of the county.
  The council of the borough of Stockton-on-Tees altering certain polling districts in the borough.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

CONVEYANCING BILL [H.L.]
  SETTLED LAND BILL [H.L.]
    MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
    Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

    HORSE-BREEDING.
    THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORErose to move to resolve, " That in view of the importance of the horse-breeding industry to the community in general, and of the necessity for an adequate and efficient supply of horses for military and other purposes, it is, in the opinion of the House, desirable that steps should be taken to improve the breeding of horses by giving effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on horse-breeding in their Tenth Report, especially to those having reference to the improvement of the quality of brood mares. "
    The noble Earl said: My Lords, I confidently appeal to your Lordships to allow me to trespass upon your patience this evening in regard to a subject of very great importance, and a subject in which I know many of your Lordships take very great interest. The horse-breeding industry is one in connection with which there are many peculiar circumstances, which I think admit of the Government taking special steps to deal with it—steps that they are able to take without any interference with certain economic theories which I know are hold very strongly on the other side of the House and which

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    are acted up to perhaps not quite so strongly. I take it that it will be granted on all sides that Government horse-breeding establishments such as are known on the Continent of Europe are in this country impracticable, and that it is infinitely more satisfactory, from every point of view, that the horse-breeding industry should be left in the hands of private individuals. But, in spite of that, there are many ways in which the Government can interest themselves in, and so indirectly benefit, the industry, and it is to some of those ways that I would ask to be allowed to direct your Lordships' attention.
    We are fortunate in the fact that we have before us a great deal of information upon the subject. We have, first of all, the ten Reports of the Royal Commission on Horse-breeding—most valuable Reports—and I have also in my hand a document of very great interest, which I dare say has fallen under the notice of many of your Lordships, though it is not an official publication. It is a report of a special committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society which sat in the year 1904 and made some most interesting inquiries upon many branches of the subject. The members of the committee were all men well known as being thoroughly " up " in the subject. They made their inquiries by letter, and the evidence they collected went to show that whereas the breeding of thoroughbred horses, sires, and polo ponies is well looked after, that of hunters and the stamp of horse which is, after all, the Army stamp, shows an entire want of system and scientific treatment the actual words of their Report are—
    " With certain marked exceptions the industry is now being pursued in a haphazard manner, without skill or organisation, and, generally speaking, with but moderate success."
    I believe there are in existence Government Returns which show that the number of horses in this country has increased, but the evidence that was submitted to this Committee proves that whereas the total number of horses has increased the number of useless mal formed, unhealthy horses has increased disproportionately to the increase in the total number of horses.
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    Three things would appear to be necessary to deal with the evils which we know to exist. The first is the provision of better sires. I know that something is already done in this direction. The State spends, I think, £8,500 a year—£5,000 in England through the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, and £3,500 in Ireland through the Department of Agriculture. The £3,500 a year which is spent in Ireland used, I believe, to be spent under the direction of the Royal Dublin Society, but it has been recently transferred. This branch of the subject is a most difficult one to deal with, but I am happy in the knowledge that several members of your Lordships' House who are well skilled in its intricacies intend addressing your Lordships upon it after I have sat down, and therefore I am not going into the question in detail. But perhaps I may say, in passing, that the evidence of the Committee to which I have referred shows that the system under which the State at present spends this money annually in improving sires by the offering of King's praemia is popular with the farmers, that in their opinion the work is most satisfactorily done by the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, and that on the whole the present accepted typo of sire is approved of, though on this point opinions are not absolutely unanimous. I may perhaps mention, as a small proof of the fact that it is worth while giving attention to this subject, that Government Returns show that of 2,460 sires in Ireland alone only 662 are thoroughbred. 633 of the remainder are carthorse sires, and what this large number of carthorse sires are being used for in Ireland, I find it difficult to understand, unless they are contaminating the hunter blood.
    The second thing which seems to be necessary is the provision of good mares. The Tenth Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, issued a year ago, stated—
    " We believe the time has come when something more should be done to improve the quality of mares. There is no doubt that much good could be done in this by your Commissioners, but with the small sum available for our use we find ourselves unable to deal further with this matter."
    The Committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society, already referred to,

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    draws special attention to the fact that good mares are being withdrawn from this country at an alarming rate, and that this country which breeds them gets no further use of them for breeding purposes. I do not, of course, suggest that we should go to the length adopted by some other countries, from which it is absolutely forbidden to export mares, but I think steps should be taken on a large scale to deal with this important part of the subject—a part which has hitherto been, until, at any rate, two years ago, neglected on all sides.
    Two years ago a society was organised in this country—the Brood Mare Society— which has now issued its second Report, and I wish particularly to draw your Lordships' attention to the methods which that Committee has pursued, and pursued, as I hope I shall be able to show your Lordships, with success. The Committee commenced, of course, in a small way, but it has provided an organisation aimed at placing within the reach of the horse-breeding community mares of good stamp and quality at moderate cost, and the organisation has worked smoothly from the first. Its procedure is as follows. It obtains mares either by purchase or by gift, and I acknowledge gratefully that private owners have been most generous on the latter head. There are now fifty mares in this country in conditions which I will now describe to your Lordships under the æigis of the society, and twenty-nine of these have been presented to the society. These mares are given to farmers for breeding purposes under certain conditions, and local committees are organised to watch the intimate working of the system almost from day to day.
    The rules of the society provide that the mare remains the property of the society, and has to be given up on demand. I need not explain the reason for that; it is pretty obvious. But the farmer may use the mare while in his possession for such work as she is capable of performing, having clue regard to the foal and the period of foaling. She must be at all times properly cared for, and the local committee is responsible for seeing that this condition is fulfilled. The stallion employed must be selected or approved by the local committee, and all expenses are borne by the custodian—the farmer. All foals belong to the custodian if they
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    are colts, but the first two fillies must be sold to the society, if the society requires-them, for £35 at a certain age—I think it is three-and-a-half years—and the custodian is made to join the society and gets all these benefits for £2 a year.
    Briefly the position is this. The farmer gets the mare for nothing, he feeds her, he breeds from her; the colts are absolutely his own, but the society has the option of purchasing the first two fillies at £35; subsequently all fillies are his own. we have now about fifty of these-mares distributed in Leicestershire, Dorsetshire, Herefordshire, and Cornwall. Farmers eagerly accept the mares of the society. We have found that on a small scale suitable mares can be obtained, and; that local gentlemen of knowledge and position are ready to help us on our local committees. We claim that the custodian of the mare gets good value for his money, and your Lordships will see-that the power we have of purchasing the first two fillies at £35 a-piece gives-us an opportunity of ensuring that these fillies shall be used in future for improving the general stock. We believe that the breeder appreciates this position just as much as the central committee of the-society. This society has fifty mares under their system as the result of two years work, and think it is highly creditable to them that they have not got one halfpenny of debt.
    The Report of the Committee of the Hunters Improvement Society to which I have already referred shows that there was undoubtedly need for the formation of the society. One of the questions asked was whether occupiers, of land would be likely to assist in the movement by which suitable brood mares should be provided by a central society under certain conditions for breeding purposes. The answers received were— favourable, 222; unfavourable, 126; doubtful, 118. I am glad to say that of the 118 who were doubtful, 100 were doubtful only because it was thought that there were practical difficulties. This committee sat in 1904, and the experience of the last two years has proved that these practical difficulties can be overcome. The next question asked was—
    " Do you consider that there is a sufficient number of brood mares in your district suitable.

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    to breed light horses, and, if so, what is the approximate number? "
    There were only seventy-five replies, out of a total of very nearly 500, which showed satisfaction with the present 'condition of things. I will only quote three or four at random. Here is a reply from Kent—
    " Plenty of brood mares, but no good for breeding.''
    From county Down—
    "A great number of brood mares, but, as a rule, they are animals rejected at sale. Everything that will pass the veterinary inspector is sold."
    From County Wexford—
    "Farmers buy any mare, and chance the getting of a foal."
    From Pembrokeshire—
    " No attention is paid to the mares. Farmers breed from any mares they happen to have."
    From Yorkshire—
    " All good mares are bought by dealers every year, and, as a rule, sold to the foreigner.
    These are typical answers. I cannot refrain from alluding to the last quotation from the evidence, which also comes from Yorkshire—
    " During the bad time twenty years ago, fanners parted with their old breeds that had been in Yorkshire for years and took to hackneys. They have now discovered their mistake."
    I venture to say that any man who has had anything to do with hackneys deserves to be flayed alive.
    I say quite openly and candidly to the noble Earl opposite that we want help from the Government. We claim to have it known that, beginning in a small way, we have provided an organisation which is workable and popular, and we think we are justified now in coming to the Government and asking them to help us to a certain extent. Our subscriptions up to the present time have amounted to £250, and the work we have accomplished has been done without incurring a halfpenny of debt. We are a cheap organisation, and claim that we are worthy of consideration and help from His Majesty's Government. We could be helped in many ways. We could be helped by an annual grant. It might be convenient, perhaps, that that grant should be given to the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding for mares, and they
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    might employ our society as their agents. I throw that out as one way in which some assistance could be given.
    But there is another way in which the Government could help us. Could they not persuade the War Office to lot us have mares at ten or eleven years of age for breeding purposes, if not for nothing, at a small cost? As I have said, the committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society have ascertained that throe-fourths of the animals purchased by the Government are scarcely ever permitted to return and reproduce their species. That is supported by my own experience at the War Office, when certain facts in connection with this matter came under my notice. I know it is the fashion for the War Office to keep horses and mares as long as a spark of work remains in them. That may be the cheaper policy at the moment, but I think it is on the whole a bad investment. The Government would do much better if they gave some serious attention to this matter and helped our society in the direction I have indicated. I would suggest also that they might take our three and a half year old mares at approximately the price we pay for them from the farmer, on the understanding that afterwards they give them back to us for the purpose of reproducing their species under our auspices.
    I do not ask for a large grant. I know that the noble Earl opposite is a most liberal man, and those who were present in your Lordships' House a week ago know that he has large ideas as to what constitutes a small sum. I do not want the small sum which the noble Earl is content to see spent annually by the London County Council on steamboats, but I think he might help us, as I am sure he will if he can see his way to do so, in the direction I have indicated. A little would go a long way and would have an appreciable effect in the direction of retaining good strains of blood in this country.
    Moved to resolve, "That, in view o the importance of the horse-breeding f industry to the community in general, and of the necessity for an adequate and efficient supply of horses for military and other purposes, it is, in the opinion of the House, desirable that steps should be taken to improve the breeding of horses

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    by giving effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding in their Tenth Report, especially to those having reference to the improvement of the quality of good mares."— (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
    THE DUKE OF PORTLAND: My Lords, as one who has for many years, in fact, ever since its inauguration, had the honour of serving on the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding I have much pleasure in supporting the Motion which has been moved by Lord Donoughmore and in doing so I would like to say a few words in general on the subject to which he has alluded. I have felt for some time that the horse-breeding industry is in a most precarious position, notwithstanding that Government statistics show an increase in the number of horses bred in this country.
    My reason for saying this is that I consider the advent of the motor car—a most useful and convenient mode of transit for those who can afford to own a motor car—cannot but have, sooner or later, a weakening influence on the horse-breeding industry in general. I doubt not that before very long several of the functions which horses at present perform in the streets of our largo towns and also in our country districts will be carried out by means of petrol or some other chemical compound. Holding this opinion I think it is the duty of every one interested in the subject—the Government included-—to do what they can to foster the industry, not only for the sake of the farmer and the horse-breeder, but also for national purposes. More especially is this the case when we take into consideration the fact that in all probability before very long the streets of London and other large towns will be filled with motor omnibuses, thereby decreasing the supply of that kind of horse which I am credibly told was one of the most useful animals during the late war in South Africa.
    I cannot help thinking, my Lords, that one way of encouraging horse-breeding would be, as mentioned in the last Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, for the Government to buy their young stock at three years old instead of at four years old as, I believe, is now the general practice. The difficulty and
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    expense to farmers to keep their young, horses until they have turned four years old before selling them I believe to be very great. It is well known, too, that the expense of keeping a young horse during the winter between three and four years old is much greater than in the-previous years of that young horse's life. The farmer in many instances, or, perhaps, I may say in most instances, cannot afford this, as the price he generally receives for his young horses rising five years old is one which does not usually pay him a due return for all the trouble and expense involved. After three years the young horse becomes troublesome and it is necessary to break him, which nowadays the farmer or the farmer's son is very often quite unable to do, and therefore it is necessary to relegate the young horse to the local horse-breaker.
    In the old days when the agricultural industry was in a prosperous condition the farmer could very often afford to hunt and was frequently—in fact, more often than not—a really good horseman; but bad times have changed all this, and now, comparatively speaking, few farmers can afford the expense of keeping a horse to follow the hounds. I imagine that if the Government could be induced to buy their young horses for remounts and for other purposes at three years old instead of at four years old, and have those young horses taken in hand and carefully and systematically trained, not only would they thereby confer a great benefit on the fanner and the horse brooder in general, but I think we should hear fewer complaints of the decade n co of the horse-breeding industry, hurried, as I fear it will be, to its end by the coming of the motor-car. My idea is that the Government should pay about the same price for an animal rising four years old, or what is known as three off, as they do now for one rising five. It might, in the first instance, cost a little more money, but the great advantage that would accrue would be that the Government would, obtain an unbroken animal which could be trained according to scientific principles and the requirements of the present day, instead of a half broken brute which most probably had acquired every possible kind of bad habit—habits most difficult and probably impossible to cure, and which sometimes render that animal totally useless for every practical purpose.

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    With regard to the work of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding I think, considering the very small sum of money which has been at its disposal, it has done as much as it could to provide sound thoroughbred horses. It may interest your Lordships to know that the number of champion prizes, challenge cups, gold and silver medals, and other prizes won by the stock of the King's premium stallions at the chief agricultural and other shows in the country during the last eight years is no less than 3,131, or an average of about 391 prizes a year. Speaking of the horses I think, too, that the quality generally has much improved; and at the annual shows of the Royal Commission the number of unsound horses is certainly decreasing in a most remarkable way. I find that at the first show, held at Nottingham in February, 1888, sixty-four horses were submitted for examination and no less than thirty-four were rejected as unsound. In the next year, 1889, when the Royal Commission held its show at Islington, fifty-one were submitted for examination and seventeen failed to pass; whilst at the show in 1905—the last show which I personally attended—only three horses were rejected by the veterinary surgeons out of fifty-six examined; and from the classes confined to England only one horse out of seventy-five was rejected from the horses shown in those classes.
    I am happy to think, my Lords, that many private individuals are doing and have done their best to keep good sound thoroughbred stallions for their tenants and for farmers, but undoubtedly the great difficulty is, as my noble friend Lord Donoughmore has said, the lack of brood mares. I have often, both in public and privately, urged farmers to keep half-bred males and also to breed from nothing but good sound serviceable animals. Nowadays, however, there is naturally a great temptation to sell good mares to pay the expense of a farm, and I regret to say that a deaf ear has generally been turned to my well-meant but seldom-listened-to advice. I still believe that in the long run it would pay farmers much better to keep their good mares and breed from them themselves than to yield to momentary
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    temptation and take the first tempting offer which is made to them.
    With regard to the Brood Mare Society, of which Lord Donoughmore, I believe, is president, I should like to say that I consider it has in view most praiseworthy objects, which should certainly be most generously supported. Personally I thoroughly approve of its objects and of its means of procedure, for it is carrying out a plan which some time ago I tried to inaugurate on my own property in the-Midland counties. I trust I may not be thought desirous of self-advertisement or of calling attention to my own personal affairs—for such, I can assure your Lordships, is very far from my object—when I say that a few years ago, finding that, practically speaking, there were no serviceable brood mares for the production of half-bred horses on my estate, I had the greatest pleasure in purchasing in Ireland thirty-six brood mares to distribute to my tenants, with the idea of having a permanent stock of half-bred horses in the district where I live. I regret to say, however, that in most instances the colts and fillies—and I especially regret the loss of the fillies—have been sold, and those animals have been lost to that part of the country which I wished and intended to benefit.
    But, my Lords, it is never too late to mend, and I am still trying to persuade my friends to keep the mares they breed, and I trust they will listen to my advice, especially as some of the produce of the mares I distributed have been prize-winners on several occasions. I trust this will induce their owners to keep them and to breed from them with the view of possible future gain. I am glad to note that the Brood Mare Society has by its rules safeguarded itself against the error into which. I fell. The rule is that those who have mares given out by the society should keep the fillies they breed until three years old, and then return them to the society if the society so desires. I did not make a rule to that effect, and I am extremely sorry for it. I trust that the fillies bred from the mares which the Brood Mare Society have distributed may be kept by those who are lucky enough to possess them.
    In conclusion, my Lords, without in any way pledging the Royal Commission

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    on Horse Breeding, of which I am only a humble member, to adopt the methods of the Brood Mare Society, I must express the sincere hope that the Government will see their way to grant a further sum of money towards the encouragement— nay, towards the very existence—of the half-bred horse-breeding industry of this country, which I regret to think is now so grievously threatened, and which I think is likely to be practically extinguished if some further steps are not taken to give it new and increased life and vigour.
    LORD RIBBLESDALE: My Lords, I welcome this opportunity of saying a few words in support of the Resolution which has been so ably moved by Lord Donoughmore, and, as a member of the Royal Commission since its appointment, I wish to associate myself with every word which I has fallen from the noble Duke who acted for a great many years as the Chairman of that body and to whom the whole horse-breeding industry in this country is indebted for a great deal of zeal and unremitting devotion. As Lord Donoughmore has told us, and as his Resolution makes abundantly clear, more money for I brood mares is the essence of this subject, and belonging as I do to the straightest sect of free traders, I can quite understand that noble Lords who sit on the Front Bench below me may ask, "How is it that you are able to reconcile your settled convictions with what is undoubtedly a bounty system and a request for an extension of the bounty system? " I quite admit that dilemma, and de minimis non curat lex is not an answer which I am prepared to give.
    I should like, in this connection, to go back for a moment to the inception of the Royal Commission, and I think I may be able to say something which will be reassuring to the noble Earl on the Front Bench, the Minister for Agriculture, whoso duty it will be, I suppose, to give the official answer to this Resolution. I remember very well, when first the question of appointing a Commission of this sort came into what I will call practical horse-breeding politics, going with the Duke of Portland to see Mr. Goschen, as he then was, and Lord Welby. We explained our position, and we were met by the difficulty of public money being asked for a bounty system. We were, however, able to run
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    the gauntlet of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's objections, and our proposals having been most severely scrutinised, this public money was given to us. At first the sum of £2,300 was derived from Queen's Plate, and £1,000 odd from the Privy Purse, and the rest was made up by Votes on the Estimates; but since then, I believe, the whole of the grant has been put on the Estimates. I do not believe that Mr. Goschen would have admitted de minimis non, curat lex.He would no doubt have said he would not break through his principles on that sort of ground. But he did break through his principles, because he recognised that we had put forward cogent reasons which justified the finding of money for this industry, which was pining for want of assistance
    One reason why mares are not forthcoming is that you have no longer highbred idle mares in England, and you will never have good horses until idle mares are back with us again. What we really want is more help with regard to mares. The Brood Mare Society have set us a good I example. Their plan seems to be a very good one. We have not as a Commission had an opportunity of corning into close I relations with them, but we have had some correspondence, and their modus operandi seems sagacious and reasonable, and to have been crowned with as large a modicum of success as a small enterprise of that kind could hope to achieve
    I have been a member of the Royal Commission since its inception, when, in Mr. Goschen's phrase, he invited the noble Duke opposite and myself to guide its infant action, and so I can speak with some experience of the extreme faithfulness with which that Commission has performed the small services which have been entrusted to it. I asked the Secretary of the Commission to give me a short préis containing the substance of the proposals to the Commission from the Brood Mare Society. The last sentence is—
    " It is believed that the Remount Department and also the Board of Agriculture favour the plan of the Brood Mare Society, which offers a foundation on which to build further developments."
    That is a fine, vague sentence, and I should be very glad to hear from my noble friend Earl Carrington that there is something; in it. At all events, I feel that the

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    future prosperity of the horse-breeding industry could hardly be in safer hands than in those of the present Minister for Agriculture, and I am sure that, as far as my noble friend is concerned, no pains will be spared to give effect, within the possible limits of political economy, to the proposals which have emanated from the Brood Mare Society, and which have been so ably stated by Lord Donoughmore.
    LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I confess that I listened with the greatest interest to the speeches that were delivered by the noble Duke below me and by the noble Lord opposite. In the days of my youth I remember hunting in my own country in the North of Scotland, but, after a time, hunting was given up. Fences were constructed, and instead of having a really good class of horse the whole breed deteriorated, and at the present moment it is almost impossible to get a horse of the class referred to in any part of that country. Some time ago a certain number of my tenants who joined the Yeomanry and required to get a lighter class of horse, asked me if I would provide them with a stallion. This I was glad to do, and the stallion I provided was very useful for several years.
    But what I found was this, that the mares were so bad that it was almost impossible to effect any real improvement in the stock; at least, it would take many years before that could be done. For that reason I heartily welcome the suggestion which has been put forward by the Brood Mare Society. I think it will have a most excellent effect, and that it will open out a new industry in the North of Scotland. If more through-bred sires were sent up it would also have a great effect if they were mixed with Highland mares, I hope that the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture will grant the assistance which has been asked for the Brood Mare Society.
    THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN: My Lords, I should like to say a word or two as to the best means of keeping good brood mares in the country. My noble friend Lord Donoughmore alluded to the stallions in Ireland. I think he rather exaggerated the case against
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    them. I forget the exact number he mentioned as thoroughbreds. I cannot pretend to speak from any recent information, but I had the honour nine or ten years ago of being chairman of a Vice-Regal Commission which inquired into the question of horse-breeding in Ireland, and I think my noble friend will find that cart horses of quite a good class are reared in the North of Ireland for the purposes of the largo towns, though not for agricultural work. I think he will find also that of the stallions that are not included as thoroughbreds a great number are perfectly suitable sires for getting hunters and horses of that description; in fact, I am confident that he will find on inquiry that some of the very best horses that have been bred in Ireland have been sired by stallions which, though practically thoroughbred, are not in the book.
    Though speaking only from memory, I well recollect that over and over again in the Report of the Vice-Regal Commission to which I have referred the extreme injury being done to the industry in Ireland by the way in which the country was being denuded of brood mares was emphasised. It was not so much that the breeders, many of them small farmers, did not understand the advantages of breeding from a good mare, but that they could not withstand the temptation of the high prices they got from foreign buyers. I believe that the most cast-iron economist of the so-called free trade school will agree that if there is a danger of our home supply of horses for military purposes deteriorating it will be legitimate to take steps for safeguarding against a failure of the supply in the hour of need. I sincerely hope His Majesty's Government may be able to give some financial assistance to the scheme which my noble friend has mentioned. I think the most legitimate way of aiding this very desirable scheme would be by financial assistance, and I sincerely hope His Majesty's Government may find themselves able to give it.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON): My Lords, I desire at the outset to thank my noble friend behind me for the courteous and kind words he used as regards myself, and I need hardly assure your Lordships that

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    everything I can do to promote this desirable object will be most willingly done. Noble Lords will have seen from the speeches that have been delivered to-night that it is generally agreed that horse-breeding in this country is not in a satisfactory state. As we have been told during the last ten years, there has been a sum of £8,500 annually spent, and I am bound to say well spent, by the Royal Commission.
    THE DUKE OF PORTLAND: Only £5,000 by the Royal Commission.
    EARL CARRINGTON: Yes, £5,000 by the noble Duke's Commission and £3,500 in Ireland. The names of the members of the Royal Commission are sufficient guarantee that the expenditure of this money is in wise hands, and the result has been that the King's premium stallions have visited different parts of England and have covered mares at the rate, I believe, of £2. The amount of; money at the disposal of the Royal Commission, however, compares unfavourably with the expenditure of foreign countries. I notice that in Italy £84,000 a year is spent; in Austria, £140,000 a year; in Hungary, £233,000; in Germany, £190,000; and in France, £308,000.
    Although I would be the first to admit the good work done by the Royal Commission, I respectfully suggest some reconsideration of the scope of their work, and the desirability of bringing the War Office and the Board of Agriculture into their counsels. I hope this will not be considered as in any way an impertinent suggestion; I only throw it out in the hope that the good work done by the Royal Commission may be in some way extended. The horse-breeding question has not escaped the attention of the War Office itself. Last year the War Office and the Board of Agriculture were in communication upon the subject; and in February of this year a conference was held at which the attention of the Board of Agriculture was called to the scarcity of mares. The conference found that there was a considerable decline in the export of mares excepting during last year, 1905, but this is not so satisfactory as it seems, because the value of the mares exported averaged one-third more
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    than the mares imported. It is therefore, fair to assume that the foreign buyers are getting the best of our English mares.
    Farmers are, as the noble Duke said, no longer able to keep the stamp of mare that is best suited for Army work, and one of the reasons given by the noble Duke was that they get a better price for hunters and harness horses. The War Office price for a four-year-old horse is certainly small. The consequence naturally is that the farmer gets rid of all the best horses he can for harness and hunting, and the failures are sold to the Army and become remounts. Again, as the noble Duke pointed out, very few farmers now hunt; very few of them keep a saddle horse, and of course that is a matter to be regretted.
    Admitting the scarcity of mares, the question is, What is best to be done? As regards the Army I understand that in peace time there is absolutely no difficulty in getting remounts. About 5,000 horses a year are then sufficient. Some people rely on Yeomanry horses, but as far as my own experience goes it seems to me that Yeomanry horses are very much like the horses in a stage army—they appear over and over again. The Royal Bucks Hussars ride them one day; they then go over into Oxfordshire and are ridden by the Oxfordshire Yeomanry. As I have said, there is no difficulty in getting remounts in peace time; but what is to be done in the event of war? At the present moment there is no adequate reserve and no system to replenish waste, and all we have to depend on in case of war is a system of registration which I do not think is a great success.
    We have had many practical suggestions made this evening. The noble Earl opposite has asked the Government to assist in the work of the Brood Mare Society. I do not doubt that that society is serving a very good purpose, and deserving of the very greatest credit for what they have done, but I am not certain that the price proposed to be paid for the first two fillies would be sufficient to tempt the farmers to accept the offer it is proposed should be made to them. The noble Earl then suggested that the War Office should give to the Brood Mare Society mares of

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    eleven or twelve years of age. My experience of a cavalry regiment is that the colonel will not cast anything so long as it has legs to stand on. I am told that 75 per cent, of these animals are probably barren, and that others suffer from various defects so that to send those old ladies to the stud would be an expensive and disappointing operation. If my noble friend can get commanding officers to send these animals when there is still some work in them thon, of course, there might be something in the suggestion. I think we are all agreed on the main point that it is desirable to encourage farmers to keep their best mares for brooding purposes, and that the Government should have some sort of lien on their progeny.
    Then comes the question of identification. It struck me when the noble Earl was speaking that there should be some guarantee that the foal was the identical foal that came from the mare handed over to the farmer. That might be secured by the Australian system of branding. I was very glad to hear that the idea, of a Government stud farm met with no favour. The noble Duke advised the Government to buy horses from farmers when they were throe years old or rising four the opinion of the noble Duke is very valuable and ought to receive every consideration, but 1 believe there are objections to that course. I would point out that the War Office Committee which sat in 1902, and was presided over by Lord Stanley, recommended that the Government should not buy any horses under five years old; and I think that to buy horses younger and to keep thorn for a year would materially add to the expense. The practical question is, is it worth while for the Government to encourage the breeding of certain classes of horses; is it right that money should be spent against the dearth of horses in the event of a great Avar, and that a large reserve should be kept up as an assurance against what we all hope is a very remote contingency, or should the country wait and " buy through the nose" if such a contingency should arise? It is really a question of expense. If more is to be done in encouraging the breeding of these horses, of course more money must be provided. But I am not Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I
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    cannot pledge the Government to any future expenditure. I should be very sorry to say a single word which would' look as a pledge that this extra expenditure would be entertained; but I think that if there is a general consensus of opinion on both sides of the House, and if we can produce a well thought out scheme, it certainly would go some way to induce the Treasury to provide the necessary funds to carry out so desirable an object. I do not think I am going too' far when I say that the state of things at the present time is almost of a dangerous character, and that some remedy is absolutely necessary.
    THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I feel sure your Lordships will not contradict me when I say that this debate has been of a very interesting character, and has shown the absolute necessity of the Government's doing something to improve horse-breeding in this country the noble Earl who called attention to this matter to-night stated his case with the greatest lucidity and ability, and I am sure the sympathetic character of the speech of the noble Earl who has just sat down must have been received by him with gratification. If there is one Member of His Majesty's Government better qualified than another to deal with this subject it is my noble friend, who has had experience in the Army and as a master of hounds, and knows full well how important the breeding of good horses is to the agricultural community.
    The noble Duke pointed out that it might be advantageous to buy horses at an earlier period, and I think that suggestion might commend itself to His Majesty's Government. I have frequently tried to convince agricultural audiences in those parts of the country with which I am associated that if they wish to counteract depression in certain, branches of agriculture they can do so by breeding and rearing the best of stock, and I think the debate to-night will go far to encourage that idea. The noble Duke, who speaks on this subject with an. authority which is almost unequalled in this House, drew attention to the fact that since the King's premium horses have been located in the country unsound

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    horses have more or less disappeared from competition in the great shows.
    THE DUKE OF PORTLAND: I said the number had been reduced to a great extent.
    THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think that speaks volumes for the good results of the action taken by the Royal Commission for the purpose of stamping out unsound horses. But what is the use of providing the country with first rate stallions unless you have the best of mares? Undoubtedly the best mares have left this country as a result of agricultural depression, and I welcome the statement of the noble Earl that he will impress upon his colleagues the necessity of doing something to retain mares in this country. It seems to me that the Brood Mare Society are going a long way in the endeavour to provide suitable mares.
    I was a Member of the Vice-Regal Commission presided over by my noble friend Lord Dunraven, and I remember then that the question of appealing for a sum of money to retain good mares was rejected by us. It may seem inconsistent that I should have gone back on that. But at that time we did not consider, in view of the purpose for which the Commission was held, that we were in a position to ask the Government to incur this expenditure. With regard to the identification of the animals, I think the local societies can be trusted to continue and extend the present system of marking, which would be quite adequate. I thank the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture for his sympathetic speech, and I hope he will not allow the matter to remain there. I know the difficulty of extracting money from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but if the noble Earl represents the absolute necessity of helping agriculture at the present time I do not think the Government will be behindhand in giving assistance.
    On Question, Motion agreed to.
    House adjourned at twenty minutes before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.