Sitting of 9 July 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Dowlais Gas Bill; Epsom and Ewell Gas Bill; Waterford Corporation and Bridge Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Dover Corporation Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
London and North Western Railway Bill [Lords] (King's Consent signified). Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
South Lincolnshire Water Bill. As amended, considered. Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
Sutton District Water Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Lord Tredegar's Supplemental Estate Bill [Lords]. Read a second time and committed.
Kent Electric Power Bill [Lords] (by Order). Read a second time and committed.
Rutherglen Burgh Order Confirmation Bill. Read a second time and committed.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP I).
Mr. TOULMIN reported from the Committee on Group I of Provisional Orders Confirmation Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had further adjourned till Thursday, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—South Suburban Gas Bill, without Amendment.
Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to: Bury Corporation Bill [Lords]; Hull and Barnsley Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, " An Act to authorise the construction of certain new works for improving the harbour of Dover; the abandonment of certain authorised works by the Dover Harbour Board; and for other purposes." [Dover Harbour (Works, etc.) Bill [Lords].
Dover Harbour (Works, etc.) Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  CENSUS OF PRODUCTION BILL.
  Petition from Huddersfield, against; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against. From Long Framlington; Nottingham; and, Plumtree; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
  Petitition from Gravelly, against alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  POISONS AND PHARMACY BILL [LORDS].
  Petition from East Dorset, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889 (ORDINANCE).
  Copy presented, of University Court Ordinance, No. XVI (Glasgow, No. 4) (Institution of a Degree in Science in Pharmacy) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 242.]
  ARMY (CIVIL EMPLOYMENT).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Committee on Civil Employment of ex soldiers and sailors, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendix [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (AGRICULTURAL RETURNS).
  Copy presented, of Report on the Agricultural Returns for Great Britain, with Statistics for the United Kingdom, British Possessions, and Foreign Countries for 1905 [by Command] to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
  Copy presented, of Annual Report of Proceedings under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Acts, & c, for the year 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Proceedings at the Sixteenth Annual Meeting of Representatives of Authorities under the Sea Fisheries Regulation Act, 1888, June 14th, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SUPERANNUATION ACTS, 1859 AND 1876.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated July 3rd, 1906, declaring Chinanfu to be an unhealthy place within the meaning of the Superannuation Act, 1876 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  GAS AND WATERWORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Copy presented, of Report by the-Board of Trade as to dispensing with consents of certain Local and Road Authorities in the case of the Mid Kent Water Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie

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  upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 243.]

  GAS AND WATERWORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade as to dispensing with the consent of the Chippenham Rural District Council in the case of the Corsham Gas Provisional Order [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 244.]
  TREATY SERIES (No. 8) 1906.
  Copy presented, of Accession of Columbia to the Convention, signed at Geneva, August 22nd, 1864, for the Amelioration of the condition of the wounded in Armies in the Field, June 7th, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  COUNTY COURTS (PLAINTS AND SITTINGS).
  Address for " Returns from every County Court in England and Wales of the total number of Plaints, & c, entered in each Court from the 1st day of January to the 31st day of December, 1905, both days inclusive, distinguishing those not exceeding £20, those above £20 and not exceeding £50, those above £50 and not exceeding £100, and those by agreement over £100."
  " And, of the Sittings of the County Courts in England and Wales holden before the Judges of such Courts in the year 1905 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 284, of Session 1905)."—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  H.M.S. "Africa."
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the now battleship " Africa," while out for her trials, was only saved from running on the rocks at the Lizard by the engines being put full speed astern; and, if so, has any inquiry been made into the matter, and with what result.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The engines of H.M.S. " Africa" were reversed during her trials on account of her getting into proximity to the shore
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  in a fog. It is not proposed to make any further inquiry into the matter.

  Despatches of Mails from Sliddery, Isle of Arran.
  MR. LAMONT: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the mails from Sliddery, in the Island of Arran, now do not leave Lamlash till after 3 p.m., instead of at 11.30 a.m., as formerly; whether letters, consequently, are not delivered in Glasgow until the following day; and whether he can see his way to restoring the previous arrangement.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The alteration in the service from Sliddery referred to is the usual summer arrangement for the steamers between Lamlash and Ardrossan, and has been in operation for several years. I understand that, although the correspondence from Sliddery should reach Glasgow in time for delivery the same day, it occasionally, owing to loss of time on the way, arrives too late for the suburban post. I will make inquiry as to the possibility of effecting an improvement in the service.

  Transvaal Self-Government.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government will afford opportunity for consideration by the House of any proposals they may make with a view to the establishment of responsible Government in the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies before taking definite action on the Report of Sir West Ridge-way's Commission.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I must ask the hon. Member to address himself to the Prime Minister, who answered a somewhat similar Question on the 25th ultimo.†

  Merchant Vessels and the Naval Manœuvres.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many merchant vessels of fourteen knots speed or under, and how many of over fourteen knots took part in the recent eight days naval manœuvres; and whether the insurance policy taken out covered these vessels
  † See (4) Debates, clix, 665.

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  exclusively, or whether other ships were included.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The Reports of the numbers of merchant vessels taking part in the manœuvres have not yet been received. There is no speed limit named in the insurance policy.

  Erection of Letter-Box at Cleggan.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can agree to the erection of a letter-box at Cleggan on the mail car route between Creeslough and Carrigart, county Donegal.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I will send the hon. Member an answer after I have made inquiry on the subject.

  Winton (Bournemouth) Post Office.
  MR. A. ALLEN: To ask the Postmaster-General if any decision has been come to as to whether the post office at Winton, Bournemouth, shall be constituted a salaried sub-office; and whether he can give any information as to when the present vacancy will be filled up.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I have now decided that the post office at Winton, Bournemouth, shall remain a commission sub-office, and steps are being taken to fill the appointment.

  Irish Evicted Tenants—Case of Thomas Flanagan.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have yet made provision for Thomas Flanagan, Clonag-hadoe, an evicted tenant upon the estate of Mrs. Adair, Mountmellick, Queen's County, the remaining portion of which is now before them for sale; can he say whether the Estates Commissioners are prepared to sell Flanagan's farm to the planter who has come into occupation since 1901; and, if so, how they propose to deal with the evicted tenant's claims.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I informed the hon. Member on May 17th that the Estates Commissioners had referred Mr. Flanagan's application to one of their inspectors for inquiry. His Report has not yet been received, and in the meantime
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  the Commissioners are unable to come to a decision in the case.

  Case of Fat Fahy.
  MR. KILBRIDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement from Pat Fahy (Frank), who was evicted on the Clanricarde estate in 1886; whether the Estates Commissioners have made inquiry as to how the evicted farm is now held; and whether the present holder is willing to take compensation and sell to the Estates Commissioners, or what provision they intend to make for Fahy.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received from Patrick Fahy an application for reinstatement as evicted tenant. The application states that his former holding is in the occupation of another tenant. The Commissioners will have inquiry made into the case in due course. They are not aware whether the present tenant is willing to accept compensation for the surrender of the holding, but if Fahy cannot be reinstated in that holding the Commissioners will consider his case in connection with the distribution of untenanted land which they may acquire for the purpose.

  Restoration of Representatives of the late Mrs. Sexton.
  MR. MEAGHER: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the tenant who is at present in occupation of the holding of the late Mrs. Kate Sexton, of Holdenstown, county Kilkenny, is a permanent tenant; if so, what steps, if airy, have been taken by the Estates Commissioners to restore the representatives of Mrs. Sexton to an equivalent holding.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge as to the tenure upon which the evicted farm in question is held by the present tenant. Miss Celia Sexton, sister-in-law of Mrs. Kate Sexton, has lodged an application for the evicted farm, and the Commissioners have had the case inquired into by one of their inspectors. They have not, however, yet ruled upon the application.

  Evicted Tenants in County Kilkenny.
  MR. MEAGHER: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if, owing to the discrepancy which existed in the numbers between the Returns issued subsequent to the passing of the Land Purchase Act, 1903, and the number of applications lodged by or on behalf of evicted tenants for reinstatement in the county Kilkenny, he will cause a Return to be issued of those evicted who are entitled under the Act to be reinstated, and that the necessary particulars will in each case be given so as to enable those tenants or their friends to lodge applications in due course.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that applications have been received from 141 persons seeking reinstatement as former tenants or representatives of former tenants of holdings in county Kilkenny. These applications will be inquired into and reported on by an inspector in due course; but, until each case has been ruled on by the Commissioners, they will not be in a position to particularise how many of the applicants come within Clause (d), Section 2 (1), of the Act. It appears, however, from the particulars shown in the applications themselves, that at least nine of the applicants do not come within the terms of that clause. A Return such as the hon. Member desires does not appear to be either practicable or needed.

  Holding for Caldbeck on the Waring Estate.
  MR. MEAGHER: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state if the Estates Commissioners have yet approached the tenant in occupation of the holding of Samuel Caldbeck, Waring's estate, Kilmanagh, county Kilkenny, who expressed his willingness to surrender the holding to Caldbeck on getting reasonable compensation; if not, what steps, if any, have been taken to provide Caldbeck with an equavalent holding.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received from Samuel Caldbock an application for reinstatement in a holding on the Waring estate. The Commissioners
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  have not approached the present occupier of the evicted farm, but they intend to have Caldbeck's application inquired into in due course by one of their inspectors.

  Marine Works in County Mayo.
  MR. CONOR O'KELLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the exact position in which the scheme for connecting Malloranny and Belmullet by steamer service, under the Marine Works Act of 1902, now stands; and if he will state who or what is responsible for the delay in carrying out a scheme decided upon over three years ago.
  MR. CONOR O'KELLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if any of the marine schemes proposed to be carried out three years ago in the county of Mayo, under the Marine Works Act of 1902, have been abandoned; and, if so, whether it is intended to expend the money available by the dropping of these schemes in the county of Mayo where railway and other transit facilities are so much needed.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I understand that two schemes, under the Marine Works Act, for county Mayo wore proposed by the late Government, one relating to harbour works at Innishlyre, and the other to a steamer service between Belmullet and Tonragee, near Mulranny. Difficulties in regard to both schemes arose while the late Government were still in office, with the result that both were suspended. His Majesty's present Government have had both schemes under consideration, as also the question of railway extension to Belmullet and of transit facilities in the district generally. The whole question is still engaging the earnest attention of the Government, but it is one of much complexity, and I do not anticipate that I shall be in a position to make a statement on the subject for some time to come.

  Sale of the Perry-Knox-Gore Estate.
  MR. CONOR O'KELLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have approached Mrs. Perry-Knox-Gore, the owner of the Crannagh farm at Ardagh, Ballina, county Mayo (which it was proposed some time ago

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  to dispose of by public auction), with a view to the purchase by the Commissioners of the Crannagh farm and the occupied portion of the Perry-Knox-Gore property; and, if so, with what result.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that no proceedings for the sale of the property referred to have been instituted before them and they have not yet approached the owner upon the subject of purchase, but are now about to do so.

  Meat Contracts for Troops at Belfast.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Liverpool contractor who holds the Belfast contract for meat is the person chiefly responsible for changing the condition of tender from Home-bred to Home-killed; and whether a Yorkshire farmer obtained this contract, which is supplied by an American firm.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. As regards the second, the contract was obtained by Mr. Boddy, as the hon. Member was informed on the 25th ultimo. The quality of the meat is excellent.

  Pigeon Shooting in Egypt.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether any general regulation with reference to the shooting of pigeons has been issued by the General in command of the British troops in Egypt: and, if so, whether he can state the terms of the regulation, and the date on which it was issued.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Lord Cromer in a telegram dated the 14th ultimo, addressed to my right hon. friend the Member for the Berwick-on-Tweed Division, stated that the order hitherto existing in Egypt has been that no pigeon-shooting was to take place without the consent of the Omdeh of the village, and that, since the Denshawai incident, the General Officer Commanding in Egypt was about to issue orders forbidding the shooting of pigeons in the future, but I am not aware of the terms of the order or the date of its issue.

  Artillery Practice on Dartmoor.
  MR. LUTTRELL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can arrange that on August Bank Holiday there may be no artillery practice on Dartmoor.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Instructions have been issued to the commandment, artillery practice camp, Okehampton, that there is to be no firing on Easter Mondays, Whit Mondays, or August Bank Holidays.

  Furnishing of Officers' Quarters—Local Tenders.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: To ask the Secretary of Hate for War whether the furniture and all necessaries for the officers' quarters and mess, in Kilkenny, which were usually supplied by local firms, are now supplied from London and other outside places; and, if so, whether, in the interest of local trade and industries, he will see that the old order is reverted to, and such orders given in Kilkenny.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The furniture previously obtained locally was presumably that purchased by officers privately before quarters and mosses were furnished at the public expense, Furniture is now obtained by public tender and supplied as Government equipment to quarters and messes. I do not propose to change the system now in force.

  Australian Tinned Meat.
  MR. WILLIAM KEDMOND: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Colonial Office have received any representations as to the position of the tinned moat trade in New South Wales; and whether he can say if he has any official information that the system of inspection in operation in Australia is so rigorous and careful that the occurrence of any abuse is impossible, and that consequently there has been no complaint whatever as to the excellence of the article supplied by the Australian trade.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) Since the hon. Member's Question was put to me on July 2nd, a letter has been received from the Agent-General for New South Wales pointing out that special care is

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  exercised by the New South Wales Government that only healthy beasts are slaughtered for food, and both in freezing and canning works every precaution is taken to ensure that cleanly methods are adopted. All animals intended for human food are, first of all, inspected alive in the sale yards by Government veterinary experts. These inspectors are either veterinary surgeons or have passed a thorough examination in the detection of diseases both in live stock and meat. Subsequently the carcases are inspected in the slaughter-houses which are also under Government control. In transit, in shops, and other places, frequent inspections are made, and these extend in every instance to the whole premises and to all meats or parts of the carcase. Not only this, but the utensils and appliances, in addition to the blood, offal, etc., are inspected, and were any breach of the regulations regarding cleanliness to occur, the licence to such premises would be at once withdrawn. The Government inspectors have to make weekly reports with particulars of the numbers of cattle slaughtered. Not only has every slaughtering establishment to be licensed but every person intending to slaughter cattle for food has to give twelve hours notice to the inspector to enable him to be present, a penalty of £5 being inflicted for every head of cattle which has been slaughtered without proper notice having been given. The laws against slaughtering for food of any cattle that are in any way diseased are strict; and if an inspector finds the milt or spleen of any slaughtered animal to be diseased, he causes the on the carcase to be removed and destroyed under penalty of a fine from £10 to £50. Any person taking such beast to slaughter is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, with or without hard labour, and any one attempting; to sell such diseased meat is liable to a long term of imprisonment. In the establishments where meat is being prepared for canning, etc., the regulations are especially strict. I desire to correct a mistake which was unfortunately made in my Answer to the hon. Member's Question on July 2nd. I then stated that no tinned meat was exported from New South Wales to this country. I should have stated that no boneless meat was exported. Tinned meat is imported from New South Wales and also from Queensland in considerable quantities and in smaller quan-
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  tities from South Australia and Victoria. I understand that in the principal works in Australia where the preserved meat industry is carried on the beasts are killed purely and solely for preserving purposes, and only the finest parts of them go into the tins.

  South African Custom Duty on Skimmed Condensed Milk.
  MR. NIELD: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that, by the action of the South African Customs Convention, certain new duties were simultaneously passed and became law throughout British South Africa as from mid-day on May 25th last, and that a duty of 6d. per pound was placed on skimmed condensed milk which had hitherto entered South Africa under a duty of 2s. per case, valued at 12s. 6d., whereas the new duty imposed is 24s. per case; that the trade in this article, almost wholly in the hands of British merchants, averaging from 30,000 to 40,000 cases per month, is in danger of destruction, and that, contrary to the established practice, no previous intimation was given of the proposed increase of duty, and no provision made for the clearance at the old duty of shipments in transit, approximating 35,000 cases, which will be prohibited entrance except at the new duty; and, if so, will he use his influence with the Colonial Governments to permit shipments in transit at the time of the imposition of the extra duty to be admitted at the old rate.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The Secretary of State is aware of the increase of duty alluded to by the hon. Member. Representations as to the hardship of collecting the new duty on cargoes in transit were communicated to the South African Governments, and collection was postponed till July 1st subject to sufficient proof being given that importations prior to that date were kept within the limits of contracts entered into before May 20th on which date the increased duties provided for by the new Customs Convention came into force.

  The Rajah of Sarawak and the Sultan of Brunei and the Foreign Office.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, when desiring to bring fully to the notice of His Majesty's

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  Government the subject of the relations between the Government of His Highness the Rajah of Sarawak and that of the Sultan of Brunei, both under British protection, any question, or any application for information, shall be made to the Foreign Office or the Colonial Office.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) All questions arising in connection with the relations between the States of Sarawak and Brunei are dealt with by the Foreign Office

  Temporary Second Division Clerks Appointed to Irish Government Departments.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can give the number of second division clerks who were appointed temporarily during the last five years in the first instance to Irish Government Departments; and whether he can give the number of these second division clerks that were afterwards made permanent in the Departments to which they were originally assigned for temporary duty.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) During the period July 1st, 1901, to June 30th, 1906, I am informed the forty-four second division clerks were assigned for temporary duty in Irish Government Departments. Of these, twelve were afterwards made permanent in the Departments to which they were originally assigned.

  Excise Department—Promotion to Supervisorships.
  MR. SNOWDEN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what is the average age of officers of Excise when called upon to attend the examination for supervisorship, and what proportion of those who present themselves secure promotion; whether in view of the course of study which success at the examination entails, the Board of Inland Revenue will adopt the course introduced by the Board of Customs in similar circumstances and give six months notice of the date of the examination, and at the same time indicate the officers who will be called upon to attend; whether he can state when the next examination will be held, and also say how far down the seniority list of first class officers the summons to attend will be extended; and whether he will give instruction that so far as is practicable future examinations, both for the supervisorship and the
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  inspectorship, be held in the spring so as to avoid the necessity for a course of close study during the summer months.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) (1) The average age of officers attending the examination for the supervisorship is forty-four. (2) Roughly speaking about one-third of the number of candidates are passed. (3) As long a notice as possible is given of the date when the next examination for the supervisorship will be held. In view of the uncertainty of requirements, as resulting from the vacancies that occur, it would be difficult to give as much as six months notice, or to indicate the officers who will be called upon to attend. (4) So far as the Board of Inland Revenue can tell at present, an examination for the supervisorship will be held early in the spring of next year, but it is impossible to state how far down the seniority list the summons to attend will be extended. (5) I understand it would not be practicable, as a general rule, to hold the two examinations in the spring of the year.

  Inspection of Imported Food.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of introducing a public measure to compel all port sanitary or borough council authorities to inspect imported food, including tinned products.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. I have now under consideration the expediency of proposing legislation for the purpose of amending, the law in relation to food inspection.

  Railway Rates and Facilities.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of extending the-powers of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade in regard to complaints by individual traders, respecting rates, facilities, and contracting out of liabilities previous to an appeal to the Railway Commission; and whether any arrangement can be made to cheapen the cost of proceedings before the Railway Commission.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The whole matter is engaging my careful attention, but I am not at present able to make any statement on the subject. I am

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  fully aware of the desirability of securing as cheap arid expeditious a means of dealing with traders' complaints as the circumstances of the case permit.

  Distribution of Grants under the Education Bill.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER: To ask the President of the Board of Education, the financial Resolution for the Education Bill having been passed, if he can now give any indication as to the probable distribution of the money.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) As stated by me on the introduction of the Education Bill, and in Answers to various Questions put to me since then in the House, the general principle upon which the Board of Education will proceed in the ultimate distribution of the new grant will be to have regard both (a) to the actual increase of local burden consequent upon the Bill, and (b) to the amount of the education burden in the area. In regard to the first of these points the Government are of opinion, as I stated on April 9th, that it is not possible to lay down any detailed scheme for the distribution of the grant until some reliable estimate can be formed of the probable additional burden accruing in individual areas through the operation of the Bill, and this cannot be obtained until we have had some experience of the arrangements that are made under the Bill between local education authorities and the owners or the trustees of voluntary schools. But there can be no doubt that, taking the country as a whole, the sum named in the Bill will considerably more than cover the total liabilities that can reasonably be expected to accrue to the local authorities generally in respect of the new burden of the structural repairs of those voluntary schools which are taken over, and in respect of sums paid by way of rent or otherwise on the taking over of those schools, or in the shape of new annual charges of sinking fund and interest for the erection of any new council schools that may be erected in lieu of existing voluntary schools. In regard to the second of the two points named above, it is clear that any scheme of distribution of the Exchequer grant, which is to have regard in some equitable manner to the total burden borne by a locality in respect of elementary
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  education, must involve some readjustment of the existing Exchequer grants in aid of elementary education. For these reasons the Chancellor of the Exchequer has decided that there should be a comprehensive scheme of allocation of all State grants in aid of the local burden in respect of elementary education throughout England and Wales. An amalgamation of the existing grants for elementary education, which are now threefold, annual grant, free grant, and special aid grant, and are paid on various very complicated bases and at different dates, is, on other grounds, eminently desirable; and the Board have, for some time past, had it in contemplation to attempt some such administrative reform as this, and also to reform the extremely tangled scheme of " school years," delayed payments, and quarterly instalments, at present attaching to the grants generally. From these various considerations, therefore, the Government are of opinion that the best mode of dealing with the matter is to prepare a scheme by which all existing grants for elementary education, together with the new grant of £1,000,000 sterling, shall be newly distributed, having regard especially to the two points hereinbefore named, and that, as such a scheme cannot, for the reasons above stated, be prepared until information is available as to the arrangements made respecting transfers of schools under the Bill, it shall be made the subject of a Bill to be introduced next year.

  Schools promoted by Persons other than Local Education Authorities.
  MR. WALROND: To ask the President of the Board of Education what is the number and what the religious character of the schools promoted by persons other than local education authorities, and sanctioned by the Board of Education under Section 8 of the Education Act of 1902.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The number and religious character of the new voluntary schools promoted by persons other than local education authorities, and sanctioned by the Board of Education under Section 8 of the Education Act, 1902, is—forty-five Church of England; fourteen Roman Catholic; two Wesleyan; four other undenominational. This is irrespective of certain enlargements which have been sanctioned.

  Men Employed in Royal Dockyards.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what has been approximately the maximum and minimum number of men employed in the Royal Dockyards since 1900, inclusive; and what is the approximate number contemplated by the Admiralty at the conclusion of the present financial year; or, if this figure cannot be given, whether he can state the number now employed.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The maximum number of men employed since 1900 is 35,676, and the minimum 27,000, which is the number borne at the present time the numbers to be borne at the end of the year have not been determined.

  Application for Allotments at Achscrabster—Expense Involved.
  MR. R. L. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that in a recent application under the Allotments Act for land (extending to thirty acres, and valued at £15 11s. per annum), at Achscrabster, in the county of Caithness, the legal and other expenses connected with the valuation of this small piece of land were as follows: Arbiter's fee and expenses, £17 1s. 5d.; fee and expenses to the clerk to the Reference, £47 2s. 6d.; cost of the solicitors for the proprietor, £25 15s. 1d.; compensation to the tenants (£15 6s. 5d.), and their expenses (£4 2s. 5d.) together £19 8s. 10d.; cost of the solicitors representing the parish council, £3 5s. 8d.; outlays incurred by the county clerk, £21 12s. 1d.; making a total of £134 8s. 7d.; and whether the Government will introduce legislation to amend the Allotments Act so as to make the incurring of such expenses impossible in the future.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The expenses connected with the Achscrabster I allotments are correctly reported by the hon. Member. The rent, however, is£18 9s. 6d. per annum, not £15 11s. Undoubtedly the total amount of the expenses is out of all proportion to the magnitude of this transaction, and a simpler and cheaper procedure is necessary to any large extension of the allotments system. Until Parliament has had an opportunity of considering the Bill amending the Crofters Act, which is now under preparation, I am unable to give any pledge as to legislation.

  Payments under the Agricultural Bates Act.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received copies of a Resolution from the Vaynor and Penderyn Rural District Council, recommending that the payments made under the Agricultural Rates Act to spending authorities should be based on the average of the rates collected during the three years immediately preceding years to that in which payments are made, and not, as now, on the one year basis; and whether he intends taking any action in connection with the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have received copies of several Resolutions from local authorities to the effect stated in the Question. The Act requires that the annual payments made under it shall be based on the amount of the rates raised during the year 1895–6. I could not undertake to propose legislation to alter it in this respect.

  Assessment and Taxation of Coal.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received a petition from the Merthyr Board of Guardians praying that a committee of inquiry be set up to report upon the present system of assessing coal raised in the country for the purpose of rating and to fix a national basis for assessment purposes, and what action he purposes taking.
  (Answered by Mr. John Hums.) I have received a copy of a Resolution passed by the Merthyr Tydvil guardians on this subject, and I am aware that complaints have been made as to the different methods adopted of ascertaining the rateable value of coal mines. The Royal Commission on Local Taxation referred to the matter in their final Report, and recommended special means for dealing with the valuation of these and some other properties. I do not think it necessary that a committee should be appointed, as suggested by the guardians, but the mode of valuing coal mines will not be lost sight of when the Government are considering the subject of valuation.

  American Beef Companies and Income Tax.
  MR. FIELD: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that certain American beef companies who

  497
  import meat into this country state they do so at a loss and pay no Income-Tax upon their turnover; and whether he will institute inquiries regarding this matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) The matter is one to the importance of which the Board of Inland Revenue are fully alive, and every care is taken by them to secure the assessment of the companies to Income-Tax on their true English profits. In the case of an appeal by an American firm against an Inland Revenue assessment in 1903, the firm in question succeeded in proving to the satisfaction of the District Commissioners, by means of a full disclosure of the accounts of the whole of their business, that the trading of the dressed beef department, from which the bulk of the English trade is drawn, had resulted in a loss.

  Great Southern and Western Railway and Carriage of Exhibits from Agricultural Shows.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Great Southern and Western Railway Company of Ireland, disregarding the practice prevailing with the English railway companies to charge agricultural machines, implements, and other exhibits transferred from one agricultural show to another, at half rates at owner's risk, if such articles are certified by the exhibitor to be unsold, charge in respect of such articles full rates; and whether he is prepared to use his influence to put an end to this treatment in the interests of agriculture.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Department of Agriculture are informed that the arrangements as to charges for the carriage by railway of agricultural machines, implements, and other exhibits, from shows in Great Britain differ somewhat from those which apply under like circumstances in Ireland. In England it appears that such exhibits are charged at full rates going to shows and at half rates when returning, upon being certified as unsold. Unsold exhibits conveyed from one show to another are charged at half rates. In Ireland exhibits going to shows are charged at full rates, as in Great Britain, but are carried back free if certified as unsold. The traffic from show to show is charged full rates in Ireland. The Department
  498
  are not aware that exception has been taken by any Irish exhibitor to this procedure as adopted on the Great Southern and Western Railway, but it would seem that an English firm, which some time ago exhibited implements at an Irish show, objected to being charged full rates when the goods were carried by railway to another show in Ireland. Traffic of this kind from show to show in Ireland is stated to be very small, and the Department have no information to show that Irish exhibitors are desirous that the system of charging adopted by British railway companies should be substituted for that now in operation in Ireland. The Department are also given to understand that the charges for the carriage of agricultural machines and implements as a whole are lower in Ireland than in Great Britain. In these circumstances it does not appear necessary to make any special representation to the Irish railway companies on the subject.

  Irish Agricultural Organisation Association.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when the promised Return, giving detailed particulars of payments by the Department of Agriculture to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Association, and to officials of that organisation, will be issued.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am now prepared to give this Return if the hon. Member should formally move for it.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many members of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society have been nominated by the department to membership of the Agricultural Council and Board of Agriculture, respectively; and whether he will say who was the founder of the Agricultural Organisation Society.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am informed that of the thirty-four members of the present Council of Agriculture nominated by the Department, eight are members of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, and that of the four members of the Agricultural Board nominated by the Department, three are members of the Society. The Society was founded by Sir Horace Plunkett.

  Construction of a Boat Slip at Maghery Bay.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a memorial from fishermen and others asking for the construction of a boat-slip at Maghery Bay, between Burtonport and Portnoo, county Donegal; and whether he is prepared to accede to the request of the memorialists.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The memorial in question represented the need for a boat-slip or harbour at Maghery Bay to accommodate a large number of luggers and small fishing boats. The memorial has been placed before the Congested Districts Board, who have decided to postpone consideration of the project, as the probable cost of a suitable work would be beyond the moans at their disposal. The Board understand that no harbour that would be safe for luggers in bad weather could be constructed at such an exposed place under a cost of £10,000, and probably this sum would be largely exceeded. Even a slip, with protecting break water which would be useful for small boats, would cost about £3,000.

  Bank of England Stock.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury, in view of the facts that the value of the Bank of England stock has of late years declined from 342 to 284, or equal to £60, and that the values of limited bank shares have hardly depreciated during the same period owing to the existence of Leeman's Bank Act of 1867, which protects these stocks from bear operations, what steps does His Majesty's Government intend to take to protect the Bank of England stock and other trust securities; and whether the Government will adopt the same effectual legislative measures to apply to all these stocks as Leeman's Act does with limited bank shares, in order to stop a continuance of the systems of bull and bear financial gambling operations in fictitious shares, with the object of protecting the interests of bonâ fide shareholders.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) I doubt if Leeman's Act produces all the effect that the hon. Member attributes to it, and I am not prepared to take the action that he suggests.

  Extension of Labourers (Ireland) Act to Artizans of Urban Districts.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received from the Galway Urban District Council and other local bodies in Ireland copies of Resolutions asking the Government to extend the provisions of the Labourers (Ireland) Bill to the labourers and artizans of urban districts, so that the same facilities be granted to urban councils which are proposed to be granted to rural district councils; and, if so, will he say what action the Government propose taking.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) Resolutions to the effect mentioned have been received. In reply to the concluding inquiry I beg to refer to my Answer to the similar Question of the hon. Member for West Kerry on June 21st. †

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  British Naval Training.
  MR. HART-DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the attention of the Board has been called to the Report made by the Italian Minister of Marine to the Chamber of Deputies in which the new scheme of naval training in the British Navy is condemned: and whether he will lay upon the Table a translation of such parts of the Report as deal with the new scheme of naval training.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): My attention has been called to the memorandum and I have taken steps to obtain a copy of it, but until this is received I must defer replying to the last part of the hon. Member's Question.

  Army Route Marching
  MR. LEIF JONES: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what has been the result of the investigations he instituted into the circumstances of the march of the first brigade of the Buffs from Lydd to Dover, which was alleged to have resulted in several casualties of a serious nature.
  † See (4) Debates, clix., 374.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,): The report of this case which has been received shows that the man who died in Dover hospital from valvular disease of the heart on April 11th did not march with the detachment, but was sent from Lydd to Dover by train on the 10th. The marches were as follows: April 10th, Lydd to Shorncliffe 16 miles. Halts of 5, 10, 10 and 20 minutes respectively. Weather cool, N.E. wind. No men fell out. April 11th, Shorncliffe to Dover Citadel. Left Shorncliffe 8.55 a.m., arrived Citadel 12.15 p.m., distance about 9 miles. Hales of 5, 10, 10 and 5 minutes respectively. Weather hot and close, S.W. wind. A private fell out near Dover Rifle Range after descending a long decline, and was sent in by a cart to Station hospital, Western Heights, where he died the following morning. He had two years' service, had never served abroad, had done the previous day's march without apparent fatigue, and had not complained of feeling unwell before starting. The General Officer Commanding is of opinion that the marches were mot of excessive length, that they were carried out at the pace laid down in Regulations for large bodies of troops, that the halts wore amply sufficient, and that care was taken that the men obtained food and refreshment on the march. The conclusion to be drawn is that the man referred to died from the effects of the abnormal heat wave, to the effects of which he had a predisposed susceptibility. This is the opinion of the Army Medical Officer and is borne out by the fact that no other men of the detachment fell out except one man with the baggage guard. Two men also reported sore feet the following day, but none of these went to hospital. I am satisfied that the officers of this battalion and the army medical officers were not in any way neglectful of the comfort and welfare of their men, and I much regret that the unfortunate death of this young soldier should have given rise to the exaggerated reports in the Press that two men had died as the result of the march, that numbers of men had fallen out, and that there were numerous sufferers in hospital.

  Bloemfontein Garrison.
  MR. LANE-FOX: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his atten-
  502
  tion has been called to the deficiency in transport in connection with the Bloemfontein garrison; whether he is aware that when the Artillery brigade goes into camp the rest of the force are practically left without any transport at all; that such waggons as are available are of different patterns and not interchangeable in their parts; and that one battalion of infantry has no mobilisation equipment whatever; and whether he will take steps to remedy such deficiencies at an early date.
  MR. HALDANE: There is no deficiency of transport in connection with the Bloemfontein garrison, and the hon. Member must to under a misapprehension as to the rest of the force being left without transport when the Artillery Brigade goes into camp. The transport wagons are the local pattern buck wagons and are in every way satisfactory. All the Infantry battalions in South Africa ire in process of being completed with mobilisation equipment.

  Reservists in the Brigade of Guards.
  MR. AENOLD-FORSTEE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the number of reservists belonging to each of the four regiments A the brigade of Guards.
  MR. HALDANE: The strength of the Army Reserve of the Brigade of Guards on July 1st, 1906, was as follows:—

  Regiment.

  Section "A"

  Section "B"

  Section "D"

  Total.

  Grenadiers

  39

  2,487

  347

  2,873

  Coldstreams

  81

  1,970

  189

  2,243

  Scots

  55

  1,331

  207

  1,593

  Irish

  45

  420

  1

  466

  Total

  223

  6,208

  744

  7,175

  Cost of a Grenadier Guard-
  MR. AENOLD-FORSTER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the average annual cost per man of the rank and file to the Grenadier Guards, taking men with the colours and in the reserve together for the purpose of striking the average.
  MR. HALDANE: The average annual effective cost of the rank and file of the Grenadier Guards, on the lines indicated, is about £29 10s. per man.

  Cost of a Battalion of the Guards.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the annual cost of maintenance of a battalion of the Guards including and excluding reservists, respectively.
  MR. HALDANE: The annual effective cost of maintenance of a battalion of Foot Guards (other than the battalion of Irish Guards which has a specially high establishment) is approximately £59,000, including a share of the depot, but not including reservists. The cost of the reservists of the Foot Guards, exclusive of the Irish Guards, is at present about £7,000 per battalion. The reserve of the Irish Guards has not yet attained its full proportions.

  Cost of Army Maintenance.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the annual cost of upkeep of the following units; a field battery, Royal Artillery, on lower establishment, a battery of the Lancashire Militia, Field Artillery

  Battalion.

  Head Quarters.

  England.

  3rd Battalion East Kent Regiment

  Canterbury.

  5th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment

  Warwick.

  7th Battalion Royal Fusiliers Regiment

  Hounslow.

  4th Battalion Somersetshire Light Infantry

  Taunton.

  3rd Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment

  Bedford.

  3rd Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

  Richmond.

  6th Battalion Lanarkshire Fusiliers

  Bury.

  4th Battalion Shropshire Light Infantry

  Hereford

  3rd Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Regiment

  Preston.

  3rd Battalion Oxfordshire Light Infantry

  High Wycombe.

  7th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps

  Barnet.

  3rd Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment

  Lichfield.

  3rd Battalion York and Lancashire Regiment

  Pontefract.

  Ireland.

  4th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles

  Belfast.

  5th Battalion Connaught Rangers

  Boyle.

  3rd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

  Kinsale.

  4th Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers

  Dublin.

  Scotland.

  4th Battalion Scottish Rifles

  Hamilton.

  3rd Battalion Gordon Highlanders

  Aberdeen.

  And one other not yet definitely selected.

  Brigade, and a horse artillery battery of the Honourable Artillery Company.
  MR. HALDANE: The annual effective cost of upkeep of a battery of Royal Field Artillery on lower establishment is £13,000, and that of a battery of the Lancashire Field Artillery Militia £6,500. The cost to the public of a horse artillery battery of the Honourable Artillery Company is approximately £1,100; but I am not in a position to state what further expenditure may take place from the funds of the Company.

  Winter Training of Militia Regiments.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can now state the names of the Militia battalions with which the experiment of training recruits, for six winter months is to be tried.
  MR. HALDANE: The following are the Militia battalions selected for experimental training of six months (for recruits) and of six weeks for trained men.

  Australian Mail Service.
  MR. WILLIAM EEDMOND: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government have considered any fresh arrangement for the Australian mail service to come into force when the present contracts terminate?
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): The Postmaster-General has invited tenders for the performance of the England-Australia mail service after January 31st, 1908, but the tenders have not yet been received.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDasked if the agreement reported in to-day's paper as having been come to by the Federal Government in any way affected the contract that might be entered into by the Homo Government.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I must ask for notice of that Question.

  General Botha and the Chinese Coolies.
  MR. MACKAKNESS: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether the Secretary of State has received a letter from General Botha asking the Government to take drastic action to bring to an end the employment of Chinese in the Transvaal gold mines: and, if, so, what reply has been given to the letter; and whether the correspondence will be included in the forthcoming Blue-book on South African affairs.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State has received a letter from General Botha urging that unless the outrages committed by the Chinese coolies can be effectively stopped the labourers should be repatriated in the interests of public tranquillity. The reply to this letter is on its way to South Africa and will be included in the forthcoming Blue-book.

  White Labour in the Transvaal Mines.
  SIR CARNE RASCH: I bog to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies how many white men (approximately) were employed in the Transvaal mines when the Government took office; and how many are now in employment there.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The number of white men employed in the Transvaal gold mines when the Government took office was about 18,150: the number employed on May 31st was 18,309.

  Kaffirs in the Transvaal Mines.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the number of Kaffirs employed in the mines in the Transvaal on April 30th, 1906; the number of Kaffirs employed in the said mines before the war broke out; the number of Kaffirs, other than those employed in the mines, employed in the Transvaal, whether by the Public Works. Department, the military authorities, in domestic service, in trade, or otherwise, at the present time; the number similarly employed before the war.
  MR. CHURCHILL: 93,739 was the number of Kaffirs employed in the Transvaal Gold Mines on April 30th. There is some uncertainty as to the numbers prior to the war the report of the Transvaal Labour Commission quotes the Government Mining Engineer's statement that 107,827 were employed on gold mines in July, 1899; of these 91,484 were at work. Subsequently the Mining Department published the figures 107,482 as representing the coloured labour for the Witwatersrand Gold Mines with a statement that the figures for other districts were not known. The number of Kaffirs in other employment than Gold Mining in Labour Districts on April 30th appears to have been between 85,000 and 90,000. I am not in a position to give the numbers before the war, but the numbers in other employment were much fewer then than now.
  MR. PAUL: Has there been any change in the rate of wages since the war?
  MR. CHURCHILL: There was a distinct and serious reduction of the rate of wages paid to the Kaffirs in the Witwatersrand area after the war, but I am informed that the rate of wages has now been raised to the pre-war level.

  Outrages by Chinese Coolies.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the number of

  507
  outrages committed by Chinese coolies during the months of March, April, May, and June; and how many Chinese coolies are at present in prison in the Transvaal as a result of crimes, outrages, and other breaches of the Law.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The following are the returns of convictions for March, April and May:—

  March.

  April.

  May.

  Common assault

  55

  73

  48

  Assault with intent

  12

  6

  4

  Murder

  0

  17

  6

  Housebreaking by day

  8

  27

  20

  Housebreaking by night

  1

  22

  1

  76

  145

  79

  The returns for June are not yet available. The number of Chinese coolies in prison on May 31st was 1,311.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERasked whether the Government had published a Return of the outrages committed by natives during the present year.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir. I do not think the figures are available with anything like the same degree of accuracy in regard to the natives. These returns involve great expense and trouble. We endeavour to supply Returns for the information of this House when the House calls for them. There is a considerable proportion of crime among the Kaffir population.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Will the hon. Gentleman lay the information before the House?
  MR. CHURCHILL: If the hon. Gentleman desires to have a Return he is fully acquainted with the proper procedure.
  MR. TREVELYAN: Has the Government any information of any other working population one-fiftieth of whom are in gaol?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I must ask for notice of that Question.

  South African Labour Party and Coolie Repatriation.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a meeting has been held at Pretoria under the auspices
  508
  of the Labour Party, and also a mass meeting at Bramfontein, at which Resolutions were passed calling for the repatriation of the Chinese coolies; and whether, in view of these Resolutions, he proposes to take any action to give effect to the growing feeling in favour of such a policy.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Resolution of the meeting of the Transvaal Independent Labour Party at Pretoria of May 9th, which has been received by the Secretary of State, is a Resolution in support of the action of His Majesty's Government with regard to Chinese repatriation. I have not received the Bramfontein Resolution.

  Murder by Natives in Natal.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State fur the Colonies whether the Colonial Office has received any confirmation of the alleged discovery of the mutilated corpse of a white man in Mesini's kraal.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir, a telegram from the Governor states:— " Body found of white civilian bicyclist foully murdered by Mesini's order. Head, arm, and leg missing and trunk disfigured by most horrible mutilations.
  MR. BYLES: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how many mutilated bodies of Kaffirs have been found in the kraals?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  The Swadeshi Movement in Bengal.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Swadeshi movement in Bengal has led to the importation from Austria, Germany, Belgium, and other non-British sources, of Foreign goods which are stamped by Indian Native importers with the Swadeshi stamp, and sold, in preference to better goods of the same descriptions, which were formerly supplied from Britain.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. MORLEY,): I have seen a statement to this effect in the newspapers, but I have no definite information as to the extent to which this dishonest practice prevails,

  509
  or the degree of success attending it. Imports of British goods into India during the twelve months ending March 31st last show no falling off, but on the contrary a considerable increase on those of previous years.

  Outrages by Indian Natives.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the natives of India who recently assaulted Mr. Earle, a British planter in the Ranikhet district, and left him for dead, have been brought to justice; and what was the result of the trial of certain natives of India for the murder of Mr. Goss, a British planter, of Darjeeling.
  MR. MORLEY: I have no official information as to these cases, but I believe that the first case is still under investigation, and that in the second case an appeal is pending against the sentence of transportation for life which was passed on a servant of the deceased who was convicted of the murder.

  Indian Official Publications.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that the annual publication known as " The Moral and Material Progress of India" contains a great deal of matter that has already appeared in official publications, and that much of the information contained in it is out of date before it appears; and whether, under these circumstances, he will consider the desirability of repealing the section in Act 21 and 22 Vic, under which this publication is issued, so as to save the expense now annually incurred.
  MR. MORLEY: The wording of the Act, under which these Reports have to be laid annually before Parliament, shows that they were intended to present in a convenient shape information collected from other Reports already published, and to form a permanent record, systematically arranged and easily referred to, of the administration of Indian affairs. I have reason to think that they fulfil this purpose, and I do not as at present advised see any reason for repealing the section quoted in the Question.

  Indian Viceregal Council and the Budget Debate.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has yet communicated with the Government of India with regard to the importance of allowing more time for the annual Budget debate in the Viceregal Council; and what steps have been taken in the matter.
  MR. MORLEY: I am discussing this subject with the Government of India, and I can assure my hon. friend that I am sensible of its importance.

  British Garrison in Egypt.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if there is any intention to further reduce the British garrison in Egypt, in view of the fanatical feeling existing in that country and in the North of Africa generally.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RUNCIMAN,, for Sir EDWARD GREY): The Answer is in the negative.

  Dalny.
  MR. STRAUS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information showing that the Manchurian port of Dalny is closed to all except Japanese goods.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokio has been informed by the Japanese Government that pending the completion of the necessary arrangements, Dalny is not yet open to foreign vessels. There is, however, no discrimination of any kind in favour of Japanese merchandise. Foreign merchandise is as free to enter Dalny as Japanese articles, and foreigners availing themselves of the opportunities afforded are as free as Japanese to send their merchandise thither. The coastal junk trade with Dalny has been reopened, and the export and import duties in the leased territory have been abolished since June 30th.

  Macedonia Administration.
  MR. GOOCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps His Majesty's Government intend to take in view of the failure of

  511
  the Ottoman Government to provide for the expenses of administration and the payment of salaries in Macedonia.
  MR. RUNCIMAN (for Sir EDWARD GREY): In reply to this Question I must refer the hon. Member to the statement made by mo in the debate in this House on the 5th instant,†and to the Answer to the hon. Member for Northamptonshire.

  Turkish Reforms.
  MR. LEIF JONES: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the event of the renewal of negotiations for the increase of the Turkish Customs duties, His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of obtaining more adequate guarantees for effective reform.
  MR. RUNCIMAN (for Sir EDWARD GREY): The attitude of His Majesty's Government on this subject was explained in my speech in this House on the 5th instant,† to which I have nothing to add. As my hon. friend will have gathered from what was said on Thursday, what is most urgently required to secure reform is that the present deficits should be supplied. This and other conditions necessary to maintain and carry on the reforms are now being considered.

  Macedonia Gendarmerie.
  MR. LEIF JONES: I bog to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps His Majesty's Government intend to take in view of the non-compliance of the porte with the demands relating to the Macedonian Gendarmerie, that were presented in March and renewed in June.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: His Majesty's Government intend to press for the fulfilment of the demands relating to the Macedonian Gendarmerie in conjunction with the other Powers.

  Khanikin—Kermanshah Railway Project.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
  † See Col. 324, et seq.
  512
  whether he has any information in- regard to a German syndicate having presented an application to the Persian Government for a railway concession from Khanikin, over the Turco-Persian frontier, to Kermanshah in Persian territory.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: I have nothing to add to the Answer given to the hon. Member for the Montgomery District on June 13th, to the effect that I could give no information.

  Turco-Persian Boundary Commission.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign. Affairs whether he is in a position to give the date and place of meeting of the Turco-Persian Boundary Commission in regard to Pasova.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: The Answer to this Question is in the negative.

  Russia and the Aland Islands.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps the Government intend taking to enforce the Treaty of Paris with regard to the Russian troops in the Aland Islands.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for the North Blackpool Division of Lancashire on the 28th ultimo, to the effect that we have no information to slow that the Russian Government contemplate any breach of the provisions of the Treaty of Paris by fortifying the Aland Islands, or maintaining or creating Military or Naval establishments there.

  Visit of the British Fleet to Russian Ports.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Channel Fleet will pay a visit to a Russian port before compensation has been paid for all the British merchant vessels sunk during the late war.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: I have nothing to add to the statements which I have already made in this House on the subject of the visit.‡
  ‡ See col. 327, et seq.

  Ethiopian Railway.
  MR. HICKS BEACH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government is giving any pledge to the French Government in connection with the Ethiopian Railway in Abyssinia which will stop a railway being built in British Somaliland from Berbera to Harrar via Hargeisa.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: The agreement has been provisionally initialled, but will not be signed until the Emperor Menelik has had an opportunity of expressing his views. In the meantime, no statement can be made on the subject.

  Workmen's Compensation—Southwark Case.
  MR. BOTTOMLEYI beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a recent case under the Workmen's Compensation Act, in which the judge of the Southwark County Court reduced an allowance to an injured workman of 15s. per week to 1d., in order to induce him to undergo a surgical operation, which his employers stated would, in their opinion, have the effect of remedying his injuries; and, if so, whether he will consider the desirableness of introducing in the Bill now before Parliament such provision as will relieve an injured workman from the necessity of incurring the risk of further injuries by undergoing, at the dictation of his employers, surgical operations to which he objects.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I am informed by the deputy judge by whom this case was decided that he reduced the allowance to the workman, not for the reason suggested by the hon. Member, but because he was satisfied on the evidence that the workman was at the time quite well and able to work. The Act does not empower an employer to require a workman to undergo any surgical operation, and I see no, reason, therefore, to introduce any Amendment such as the hon. Member indicates.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I beg to give notice I will ask the Prime Minister if he will grant an early day to consider the conduct of this extraordinary Judge.

  Danger of Tram Ticket Collections— Hammersmith Fatality.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the inquest and verdict at Hammersmith upon Frederick Barnard, who was killed by a vehicle at Beadon Hill; will he say what was the ago of the deceased and whether he was in the act of collecting tram and 'bus tickets; and will he say how many serious accidents and deaths have been brought about by this advertising device since its inception; and whether the Government will take the necessary stops to put an end to this dangerous form of advertising.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Frederick Barnard, a child of four years, was killed at Hammersmith by a vehicle while picking up tram tickets in the roadway. Two fatal, accidents and seven resulting in personal injury have to the knowledge of the police boon brought about by this cause within the Metropolitan Police District. The question of the legality of these advertisements is now under consideration and will, it is hoped, be decided at an early date on a case stated by a magistrate.

  Case of Mrs. Ellen Hitchcock.
  MR. RADFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Homo Department whether his attention has been directed to the remarks of Mr. d'Eyncourt, the stipendiary magistrate at Clerkenwell, in dismissing a charge preferred by the police against Mrs. Helen Hitchcock of behaving in a disorderly manner and using obscene language in Upper Street, Islington, on June 26th, and particularly to the magistrate's comment on the alteration of the charge from one of solicitation to one of disorderly behaviour; and whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into the action of the police constable who arrested Mrs. Hitchcock and of the inspector who took the charge at the police station.
  MR. GLADSTONE: My attention has been called to the case, but I find that there was no alteration in the charge; what the magistrate pointed out was that from the first the charge

  515
  was not one of solicitation, but of disorderly conduct. (A charge of solicitation can only be brought against a person known to be a prostitute, which was not the case here.) The magistrate tells me that though he discharged the woman, he believes the officer acted honestly and from no improper motive; and the Commissioner of Police, who has made inquiry into the facts, reports that he is of opinion that the officer was not to blame. I think, however, and in this opinion the Commissioner concurs, that the case is one that should be referred to the Royal Commission.

  Case of Edward Guerin.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Edward Guerin is a British subject; and whether he is to be extradited to France on the charge of being convicted of larceny in that country.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Edward Guerin has been committed to prison to await extradition to France. He has, however, applied for a writ of habeas corpus and a rule nisi has been granted. The question of his nationality will be decided on that application.

  Vaccination Exemption Certificates.
  MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that the county magistrates in the West Hiding Court, Skyrack Division, at Leeds, on June 26th, refused to entertain the case of an applicant, Mr. Samuel Priestly, for a certificate of exemption from vaccination on the ground that the certificate of the child's birth produced, and obtained from the local registrar for 3d., was not sufficient, and demanded, as a preliminary to trying the case, that a birth certificate costing 2s. 6d. should be produced; and will he take steps to obtain some alteration in the procedure at this Court.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The 3d. certificate mentioned in the Question is not a certificate of birth, but only a certificate of registration. As I informed the hon. Member for the Wycombe Division in answer to his Question on March 28th, it has been held by the High Court that magistrates are entitled to require a
  516
  certificate of birth, unless some reason is shown why it cannot be given. I have no authority to intervene in the matter.
  MR. BRACE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention had been called to the refusals of the Porth, Glamorganshire, magistrates upon two occasions to grant a certificate of exemption from vaccination for the child of Mr. William Griffiths, 71, Penygraig Road, Penygraig; and whether, in face of the fact that Mr. Griffiths had been prevented from making an application at the Ystrad Court on June 18th, and met with the same treatment at the Pontypridd Court on June 21st, making four appearances at the Courts without result, he proposes to take any action to protect the rights of the citizen under the conscientious objection section of the Vaccination Act.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The Justices at Porth twice considered applications from Mr. Griffiths, but were not satisfied that the applicant conscientiously believed that vaccination would be prejudicial to-the health of his child. At Ystrad and Pontypridd the Court refused to review the decision of other magistrates. I have no authority to take any action in the matter.
  MR. BRACE: What steps can Mr. Griffiths take to get his case before the Courts? He has a real grievance, for he is a conscientious objector.
  MR. GLADSTONEreplied that the present state of the law gave rise to-some friction, and he could only suggest that the hon. Member should induce the Government and Parliament to alter it.

  Committal for Contempt of Court—Case of Mrs. Hunt of Exmouth.
  SIR G. KEKEWICH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has made inquiries with reference to the case of Mrs. Hunt, of Exmouth, who has been committed to Exeter Gaol for contempt of Court in not removing a stall which she has held for thirty years on Exmouth beach; and, if so, what is the result of his inquiries.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I understand that Mrs. Hunt has been committed to prison for refusal to comply with an order of the County Court. In these circumstances I regret to say that I can take no action in the matter, as I have no power to interfere with the procedure of a civil Court. Mrs. Hunt can always apply to the Judge and will no doubt obtain her release if she undertakes to obey the order.

  Prosecution of a Cab Driver at Marlborough Street Police Court.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the prosecution of a cab driver named Simmons at the Marlborough Street police court on June 29th, when the magistrate, imposing a fine of 40s. with £5 5s. costs, informed counsel for the defence that he declined to reduce the amount on the ground that it was not the accused person but the trade union to which he belonged that was to pay; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  MR. GLADSTONE: My attention has not previously been called to the case. I have consulted the learned magistrate who tried the case, and he informs me that in fixing the costs he paid no regard to the question who would be responsible for their payment; but when the defending barrister protested against the costs on the ground that they were excessive for a poor man he replied that as the barrister was instructed by the Cab Drivers' Union it was probable that the expense would not fall on the defendant. The question of the amount of costs to be imposed in any given case is by law left to the discretion of the magistrate.

  German Railway Statistics.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is in a position to state what is the amount of national capital embarked in State railways in Germany, and what interest the net receipts return thereon; and further, what allowance is made from gross earnings for depreciation and sinking fund, as also how many miles of track are worked by the State, and how many passengers were
  518
  carried last year, and what was the total tonnage of goods hauled.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,): According to the latest returns available (March, 1905) the amount of National capital embarked in State railways in Germany (including narrow gauge lines) was £686,300,000 and the percentage of net working; receipts to capital was 5·9 per cent. The ength of such railways was 31,600 miles, equivalent to a track mileage of about, 69,900 miles. The number of passengers carried in the year 1904–5 was 984,785,000, and the tonnage of goods, (inclusive of the weight of live stock) 382,203,000 tons. The net receipts of German State railways are paid into the Treasury and the published returns do not indicate any allowance for depreciation or sinking fund.

  British Railway Statistics.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what is the total private capital embarked in British railways; what interest the net receipts return thereon; and what allowance is made for depreciation and sinking fund; and also how many passengers were carried last year, and what was the total tonnage of goods hauled.
  MR. LLOYD GEORGE: The railway companies are not required to state in their returns to the Board of Trade the amounts carried to depreciation and sinking fund accounts. As regards the other points mentioned, the total paid-up capital of British railways at the end of 1905 was £1,088,421,000; the proportion borne by the net receipts to the paid-up capital was approximately 4 per cent.; the number of passengers carried last year, exclusive of season ticket holders, was 1,197,502,000; and the total tonnage of goods hauled was 461,162,000 tons. The hon. and gallant Member will find this information, with other particulars, in the Return Cd. 2948, a copy of which I have caused to be sent to him.

  Workmen's Trains.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what stops he proposes to take to carry

  519
  out the Reports of the Select Committee on Workmen's trains.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: It would not be practicable to legislate on this subject during the present session; but the whole question is engaging my earnest attention. I have been in communication with the railway companies on the subject of recent complaints made. I propose to inform the House of the result when the Board of Trade estimates are reached.

  Armagh Boiler Explosion.
  MR. HUDSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if any inquiry has been held into the cause of the explosion of the Great Northern Railway Company's (Ireland) locomotive engine boiler at Armagh, on May 16th last, when the engine-driver and fireman wore severely scalded; and whether he can say what was the cause of the firebox end of the boiler exploding.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The accident in question was reported to the Board of Trade. No formal inquiry has been held into it, but the Board have received from the railway company full particulars of the nature and causes of the accident. These particulars I shall be prepared to show to the hon. Member.

  Metropolitan Asylums Board Hospital Regulations.
  Sin J. JARDINE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that, although the rules of the Metropolitan Asylums Board strongly discountenance the making of personal inquiries at infectious hospitals by the friends of patients and state that all inquiries must be made in writing to the medical superintendent, delay frequently occurs in answering such inquiries, and information is not given either to the nearest relative or to the certifying medical attendant as to the diagnosis of the case after admission; whether he is aware of instances in which, from misunderstanding or ignorance of the rules, or other causes, relatives of patients receive no official information whatever during the whole period of detention of the patient; and whether, as the removal
  520
  of patients is practically compulsory, he will cause a circular to be issued to the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and other similar authorities outside the London area, prescribing forms for brief reports to be sent to relatives at prescribed and frequent intervals, whether formally applied for or not, and for a report on the diagnosis and bacteriological examination of the case to be sent to the medical practitioner by whom the case was certified.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): The managers of the Metropolitan Asylum District have, as I am informed, no reason to believe that delay frequently occurs in answering letters of inquiry concerning patients in their hospitals, nor have I received complaints on the subject. I understand that the certifying medical practitioner is always informed by the medical superintendent of the hospital when the latter does not agree with the certified diagnosis of the case. Notice of the arrival of a patient at a hospital of the managers is always sent to the parents or other nearest known relative or friend. Extracts from the Regulations are printed on the notice, and these show that inquiries as to the condition of the patient may be made in writing of the Medical Superintendant, who will send an early reply, and that, should the patient become dangerously ill, notice will be sent to the nearest known relative or friend with an intimation that the patient may be visited. I believe, too, that as regards the hospitals of local authorities outside London, it is the general rule to give notice where the patient is dangerously ill. As at present advised, I do not think there is sufficient ground for adopting the suggestion in the last part of the Question, which would involve considerable expense as well as labour to those concerned, I think that the object which my hon. friend has in view will be sufficiently met by the public attention which will be drawn to the matter by his Question.

  Notification of Infectious Outbreaks.
  MR. STRAUS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he intends to suggest to the local authority concerned the desirability of taking legal action against the

  521
  Metropolitan Asylums Board for omitting for fourteen days to notify the outbreak of enteric fever, in fact, until there had been more than fifty cases; and whether he can say why the Metropolitan Asylums Board did not use the ordinary test for enteric fever which would have taken but a few hours.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I am informed that the facts are not quite what my hon. friend supposes. I understand that the first notification of the cases of enteric fever at the Belmont Asylum was made twelve days after the earliest manifestation of illness amongst the inmates, and that the number of persons who had been then attacked was ten. At first the patients were supposed to be suffering from influenza. When, however, suspicion arose that the disease was enteric fever the necessary apparatus for applying the test referred to in the Question was obtained, and samples were sent to the bacteriological laboratory of the Asylums Board. On the same day that the real nature of the disease was ascertained as a, result of the bacteriological test notification was made. I do not propose to suggest to the local authority to take proceedings against the Asylums Board in the matter.
  MR. STRAUS: Is not twelve days a very long period to elapse before notifying a serious outbreak of this kind?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: Yes, but I am informed that the Board will make the necessary arrangements to prevent the possibility of a recurrence of such delay.
  DR. COOPER: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Board had not the necessary apparatus for applying the tests, but had to obtain it?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I do not think the Answer means that, for I believe they had the apparatus. Indeed, I am certain they had, but if the hon. Member will put down his Question I will inquire further.

  Motor Car Fatalities.
  MR. G. H. FABER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been
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  called to the death, from motor car accidents, of John Waterhouse, killed at Bamber Bridge June 29th; of a child, six years old, killed at Plymouth Juno 30th; of a girl killed at Battersea July 1st; and of a boy killed in Cambridgeshire July 3rd; and whether he proposes to take any steps to secure to local authorities fuller powers to control motor traffic within their respective areas.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: My attention has not been called to the particular cases mentioned. The question as to what amendments, if any, should be made in the Motor Acts and the Regulations under them is included in the reference to the Royal Commission, and I believe that their Report will be made very shortly.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: Is it intended to refuse the local authorities control over this traffic?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: No, but I think it would be unwise and injudicious for us to make any alteration until the Commission has reported —which I hope it will do in a few days.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: Are we to draw the inference that you will not sanction new regulations?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I do not think any such inference can be drawn from my Answer. All I suggest is that we should reserve these and other points until the Commission has reported.

  Vaccination Fees.
  MR. HUDSON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the existing scale of fees for primary vaccination by the several boards of guardians; and whether, in view of the financial burden imposed on them, he can take immediate steps to alter the scale of fees and cost of administration of the Vaccination Laws.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: Yes, Sir, my attention has been called to this subject, and it is receiving my consideration at the present time

  Instruction in Agriculture.
  COLONEL HARRISON-BROADLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, with a view towards checking the migration from the land of its able-bodied population, he will consider the advisability of granting powers to the county education authority to liberate from school attendance, at the age of twelve, all boys who, with their parents' consent, wish to follow the pursuit of agriculture or horticulture as a means of livelihood, whereby they would gain on the land greater facilities for acquiring a more practical knowledge of their work than they could otherwise do by attending school where the instruction given can only be of a theoretical nature.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD or EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,): The local education authorities in rural districts already possess, and the great majority of them already use, very considerable powers of the kind desired by the hon. Member. I am informed that in about two-thirds of the rural areas of England and Wales children can leave school at twelve years of age on passing a standard well within the competence of the average child of that age. There are also special provisions, such as that which is known as the Robson By-law, which can be adopted with the same objects in rural areas. Moreover, the Board of Education are giving special attention to the improvement of practical instruction in rural schools, and to the improvement of special courses for teachers in rural elementary schools enabling them to give instruction specially suited to rural conditions. I do not think, therefore, that, until there has been time to gauge the effects of these recent developments, the Board or Parliament would be well advised to interfere further, in the direction suggested, with the work of our schools in rural areas.

  Medical Inspection of School Children.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether Clause 35, sub-section (b), of the Education Bill empowers a local authority to arrange for the systematic inspection of children by medical officers appointed for that purpose; and, if so, whether, with the view of affording some guidance
  524
  or assistance to the authorities adopting this clause, he contemplates the formation, of a medical department in connection j with the Education Board.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave on June 14th to an identical Question put to me by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil.†
  MR. THORNE: Is it the intention of the Government to make it compulsory on the local authorities to appoint medical officers to inspect the children?
  MR. BIRRELL: No, Sir.
  MR. THORNE: Why not?

  Teachers' Superannuation.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, in the event of a school becoming a State-aided, and non-rate-aided school, contemplated j under the amended form of Clause 4, the certificated teacher or teachers working in such school will be permitted to remain in recorded service under The Teachers' Superannuation Act, 1898.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Answer is in the affirmative.

  Llanelian School Teacher.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Denbighshire local education authority have declined to pay to the head teacher of Llanelian National School a salary which is, in the opinion of the Board of Education, adequate; and, if so, what steps the Board proposes to take in the matter.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Answer to the first paragraph of the Question is in the affirmative; and to the second, that the matter has only just been brought to my notice, and I am now communicating with the local education authority upon the matter with a view to obtaining a satisfactory settlement.
  † See (1) Debates, clviii., 1144.

  State-Aided School Grants.
  MR. J. F. MASON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education who will receive and administer grants payable to State-aided schools.
  MR. BIRRELL: The persons recognised by the Board of Education as the responsible body of managers of the school will receive and administer the grants payable in respect of any State-aided school.
  LORD BALCARRES: Who are these persons to be?
  MR. BIRRELL: I cannot answer that. They will have to be responsible persons.

  Teachers and Religious Instruction.
  MR. J. F. MASON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether a teacher who has been permitted I to give and has undertaken to give special religious instruction under Clause 4 of the Education Bill may be dismissed if he afterwards refuses to give that instruction?
  MR. BIRRELL: The various conditions under which a teacher's tenure of office might probably be brought to an end by a local authority which has appointed him would depend, presumably, upon the terms of his agreement or contract. It is therefore, quite impossible to give a general reply applicable to all such incidents in the future. But the correct reply to the point, which I imagine to be the real kernel of the hon. Member's Question, would seem to be that careful regard must be had to the provisions of Section 7 of the Bill in the drawing up and signing of any such agreement or contract whether by the applicant or by the appointing authority, so that there may be no infringement of the clause either in the terms of that document or in its enforcement should any such contingency arise as that suggested by the hon. Member.

  Part III. of the Education Bill.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if it is proposed to omit any clauses in Part III. of the Education Bill?
  MR. BIRRELL: The hon. Member will find on the Order Paper to-day Amendments in my name proposing the omission of Clauses 25, 30, and 34 of the Bill.

  " Extended Facilities " Administration.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if he will explain the procedure to be followed by a local education authority where extended facilities are demanded, explaining in particular the number of public inquiries which should be held in order to ascertain whether a ballot is necessary; whether the results of the ballot have been vitiated by the unavoidable absence of some person entitled to vote; and whether further public school accommodation is desired by those who have asked for extended facilities.
  MR. BIRRELL: I must refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Melton on July 2nd, to which I have nothing to add. †
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether a vacancy in the teaching staff occurring in a school to which extended facilities have been granted, it will be permissible for the local education authority to take steps to ascertain that the teacher engaged to fill the vacancy is able or willing to give the special religious instruction allowed in that school.
  MR. BIRRELL: If the word " whether " be substituted for the word "that," in the Question, after the word " ascertain," the Answer is in the affirmative, assuming State-aided schools to be excluded from consideration. But, if the word " that " be retained, and if I rightly interpret the purport of the hon. Member's Question in that shape, the Answer is in the negative.

  Teachers' Undertakings.
  MR. LANE-FOX: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education how it is proposed to enforce the undertaking or contract of a teacher, express or implied, to give religious instruction, having regard to the words of Section 7 (1) of the Education Bill.
  † See reply to Colonel Walker, Lancashire, Widnes ((4)Debates, clix., 1427).
  MR. BIRRELL: It is no part of the duties of the Board of Education to arrange or to enforce contracts between teachers and the local authorities who appoint them, nor to give legal advice to either parties beforehand on the remedies open to them for breaches of contract. Presumably any contracts that are drawn in accordance with the law will be subject to the usual legal sanctions, and it will be for both parties to take care that no contracts are entered into which would be contrary to any provisions of the law in regard to what may and what may not in future properly be required as obligatory duties of candidates for teaching posts.
  MR. LANE-FOX: Are not existing contracts to be continued after the new Act comes into force?
  MR. BIRRELL: I must ask for notice of that Question.
  MR. LANE-FOX: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the agreement or minute of appointment under which teachers are now employed by local education authorities embodies or includes an undertaking to give religious instruction.
  MR. BIRRELL: In the great majority of cases I believe such an undertaking, either express or implied, is included; but this is not necessarily the case, and no doubt there are many instances to the contrary.

  Report of the Royal Commission on London Traffic.
  MR. MENZIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what was the cost to the country of printing, publishing, and circulating Volume 4, Appendices to the Report of the Royal Commission on London Traffic; and whether he will consider the possibility, in the interests of economy, of adopting some other method of publishing and making known this matter to persons interested.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,): The cost of printing, including paper, of the volume in question was £1,552. There are no special charges for publishing and circulation, as
  528
  this work is let out to sale agents. I will reply to the last part of my hon. friend's Question in my Answer to his next Question.
  MR. MENZIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what was the total cost of the whole eight volumes of the London Traffic Commission Report and Appendices; how many copies were printed; how many were sold and what amount was received for them; how many were distributed officially; how many are left on hand; and what steps, if any, he proposes to take to prevent a repetition of such expenditure.
  MR. MCKENNA: The cost for printing and paper of the whole eight volumes was £6,380. In addition, I am informed, the Ordnance Survey incurred expenditure in preparing and printing maps amounting to £1,400 to March 31st last. The number of copies of all the volumes printed is 14,000. Of these 4,022 have been sold up to date, and the net amount received for them, after deducting the sale agents' percentages, is £2,637. I think it would be premature for me to make any statement in reply to the last part of my hon. friend's Question until the Report has been issued of the Select Committee which is now considering the subject.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLasked if the hon. Gentleman could state how many hon. Members cared to have their bookshelves littered with this rubbish.
  MR. MCKENNA: I have no information at this moment, but if the hon. Member desires I will have steps taken to find out.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: It is £8,000 wasted on rubbish.

  Fatal Accidents (Scotland) Bill.
  MR. YOUNGER: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Norfolk, as Chairman of the Committee of Selection, whether it is proposed to transfer the fifteen Members already added to the Grand Committee on Law, in respect of the Fatal Accidents (Scotland) Bill, to the Grand Committee on Trade to which that Bill has now been transferred by Resolution of the House.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDON: Yes, Sir, and the notices have been or will immediately be sent out.

  Ceylon Pearl Fisheries.
  MR. J. HENDERSON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the facts that the ex-Governor of Ceylon commenced the negotiations for a lease of the Ceylon pearl fisheries, that a lease was granted to a syndicate, of which the ex-Governor was a member, and by the syndicate sold to a company of which the ex-Governor is a shareholder and director, he will grant a full inquiry by Commission or otherwise into the whole circumstances, correspondence, and documents leading up to these transactions, by which the Ceylon Government have transferred to a private company a valuable property of the Colony for inadequate consideration.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): In his dispatch of 9th May, which has been laid before the House, the Secretary of State, who is cognisant of the circumstances connected with the leasing of the fishery, has recorded the opinion that the lease appears to him to have been drafted with a sincere desire to safeguard to the utmost, the property and interests of the Colony. It has also been stated in the House that a careful study of the Papers shows that Sir West Ridge way acted throughout in good faith and with integrity. I therefore see no grounds for granting a special inquiry.

  Scottish Supply.
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Foreign Office Vote occupied all the sitting last Thursday, he will find another day for Scotch Estimates.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNEEMAN: I will see if it is in any way possible to give more time. But I am bound to say that I cannot hold out any very strong hopes of being able to do so.

  Wireless Telegraphy Bill.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister upon which day he proposes to take into consideration the
  530
  Lords' Amendments to the Wireless Telegraphy Bill.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I cannot tell the hon. Member on what day these Amendments will be considered. I believe the hon. Member is not quite correct in speaking of " these Amendments." There is only one Amendment, to substitute " 9 " for " 15," or vice versa as the case may be—I forget for the moment.

  Army Supply.
  Sin CARNE RASCH: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, considering the protracted character of speeches and the importance of the subject, he would allocate an additional day for the debate on the proposal of the Secretary of State for War.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Army Supply has already been discussed on five days this session, and I am afraid it is impossible to give a further day in addition to Thursday next.

  Ulster Sermon at Belfast.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to a meeting in Ulster Hall, Belfast, on July 1st, and to a sermon delivered by the Reverend R. D. Patterson, who warned His Majesty that by his conduct to the Roman Catholic party since he came to the throne he had excited suspicion, alienated the affections, and strained the loyalty of thousands of his most valuable subjects, and that he must cease at once coquetting with the Church of Rome or else his throne would rock; and whether he proposes to take any action with regard to this sermon.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHERRY,): My attention has been called to a newspaper report of the sermon to which the hon. Member refers. If the reverend gentleman is correctly reported he appears to have made use of language of a most violent and disloyal character. I appreciate the horror and indignation with which my hon. friend naturally regards such language; and I sympathise with his evident desire that criminal proceedings should be taken against the reverend gentleman who uttered it.

  531
  Having regard, however, to the fact that there is no serious risk, so far as I can judge, of any actual breach of the peace being provoked by the reverend gentleman's language, the Government does not propose to take any action in the matter.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Was this a meeting of 100 lodges of the Orange Society, and may this be taken as a sample of the loyalty of the so-called loyal minority?
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Has the Attorney-General any authorised report of this sermon, or is his inference drawn from the Question due to the imagination of the hon. Member for East Clare?
  MR. CHERRY: I have seen no authorised report, inasmuch as no police were present at the meeting. I have only seen the newspaper report, and cannot say whether it is accurate or not.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLasked was the right hon. Member aware that these blood-curdling proceedings ended with the singing of " God Save the King?
  LORD TURNOUR: In what paper did the report appear?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Was it not printed in several of the Dublin newspapers? Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to ascertain whether it was a correct report, and will he bear in mind I was often put in gaol for nothing at all?
  MR. CHERRY: I read the report in the Belfast News Letter. I was not aware it had travelled so far as Dublin.
  MR. DELANY: Will the right hon. Gentleman take care to send a police note-taker to future meetings of this kind?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Kinvara Harbour.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the legal technicality between the Board of Agriculture and the Galway County Council,
  532
  respecting certain works to be carried out in Kinvara Harbour, has been got over; and will he instruct the Department of Agriculture and the Congested Districts Board to write to the Galway County Council approving of the plans for the extension of the pier, submitted by the county surveyor, so that the contract may be given out at the next meeting of the county council, to be held on July 20th, with a view to starting the work early in August.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE,): As I explained in my reply to the hon. Member's Question of June 21st, the legal difficulty is not one which concerns the contribution of the Department of Agriculture, but relates to the powers of the county council to contribute. The Government are advised that under the existing law the county council are not empowered to contribute so large an amount as is proposed in the present case. The question whether legislation may be necessary is under consideration.
  MR. DUFFY: Will the right hon. Gentleman instruct the Board of Works to utilise the unexpended moneys to enable the county council to do the necessary repairs?
  MR. BRYCE: It seems that the county council have no power to expend the money, and I have no control over the Board of Works. This matter is under the control of the Treasury, whose sanction must be obtained for the expenditure.
  MR. SLOAN: What Board of Ireland has the right hon. Gentleman any control over?
  MR. BRYCE: That would fill a long list.
  MR. DUFFY: But was not a sum of £1,900 placed at the disposal of the Boards of Works to carry out certain repairs to this harbour; have they not still £550 in hand, and will the right hon. Gentleman instruct the Board to hand over the money to the county council?
  MR. BRYCE: I cannot answer as to the exact figures without notice, and I

  533
  have told the hon. Member what my relations to the Board of Works are.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman give this matter his close attention? It is really very hard on the people of this locality that the work of their little harbour should remain uncompleted because of the inaction of the Treasury.
  MR. BRYCE: Unfortunately the law will not permit the county council to do what it is willing to do.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will you at once introduce legislation, giving the county council the necessary powers?
  MR. SPEAKER: Notice must be given of that Question.

  Glenaboy Evicted Tenants.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received a copy of a resolution passed by the people of the parish of Closetoken, Loughrea, requesting the Commissioners to communicate with the landlord of a small property in the parish, to wit, Colonel O'Hara, Glenaboy, Galway City, with a view of endeavouring to restore Mrs. Duffy or her next-of-kin to the holding out of which she was evicted some twelve years ago; and whether, seeing that the terms of agreement have been signed by the agricultural tenants to purchase their holdings, he will ask the Commissioners to accede at once to the prayer of the resolution and try and have this lady reinstated.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received the resolution referred to. Mrs. Duffy's case has been noted and will be fully considered by the Commissioners when the owner of the estate institutes, as they understand he is about to do, proceedings for sale under the Irish Land Act, 1903.

  Sale of Intoxicating Liquors (Ireland) Bill.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Belfast whether he means to proceed with his Sale of Intoxicating Liquors (Ireland) Bill, as amended by the Standing Committee on Trade?
  MR. SLOAN: the hon. Member is, no doubt, aware that the Bill was amended in Grand Committee on the lines of the compromise negotiated by the hon. Member for South Tyrone. I had no knowledge of the negotiations that took place, nor was I consulted. I was no party to the compromise, and when the Bill was before the Committee I stated clearly that I could not be bound in any way in regard to future legislation, but, at the same time, the arrangements come to were such that I could not take the responsibility of rejecting them and imperilling the Bill.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is it not the fact that the Grand Committee were perfectly unanimous in this matter, and that not a single division was taken?
  MR. SLOAN: Yes, and it is that circumstance which caused me to refuse to take the responsibility of withdrawing the Bill; at the same time I strongly protested against the alterations.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: You did not vote against them.
  MR. SLOAN: There was no voting at all.

  Ireland and the Royal Commission on Canals.
  MR JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether arrangements have been made to add a member to the Royal Commission on Canals in respect to the Irish portion of the subject which is being inquired into; and when will this appointment be made and -the name of the new Commissioner announced?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question. I am in communication with the Chairman of the Royal Commission on this subject, and hope to be able to give a definite reply before the House rises.

EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS.
Ordered, That the several Accounts and Papers which have been presented to the House in this Session of Parliament relating to the Revenues of India be referred

535
to the consideration of a Committee of the Whole House.—(Mr. Secretary Morley.)
Resolved, That this House will, upon Friday, 20th July, resolve itself into the said Committee.—(Mr. Secretary Morley.)

RESERVE FORCES BILL.
Lords' Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.— (Mr. Secretary Haldane.)

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Law and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure, in respect of the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Bill: Dr. Macnamara; and had appointed in substitution, Major Renton.
Report to lie upon the Table.

BUTTER TRADE.
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up, and read;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 245.]

IRISH TOBACCO BILL.
"To repeal the Law which prohibits the growing of Tobacco in Ireland," presented by Mr. William Redmond; supported by Sir Thomas Esmonde, Mr. Patrick O'Brien, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Hayden, Mr. Vincent Kennedy, and Mr. Charles Devlin; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 303.]
EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)
[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the chair.]
Clause 8:—
MR. CAVEmoved to leave out the words in sub-section (a)
536
" sufficient guarantee is given," and insert "they are satisfied that sufficient provision will be made." The hon. Member contended that the words of the section were too strong. A guarantee for five years was a very serious thing and might mean an expenditure of £500 or £1,000 during that period, which would be a severe strain; only the other Wednesday the Minister for Education said that he did not intend to require " guarantee" in the legal sense of the term, but only that the Commissioners should have a reasonable assurance that the school would be carried on.
Amendment proposed—
In page 5, line 19, to leave out the words 'sufficient guarantee is given, 'and insert the words 'they are satisfied that sufficient provision will be made.'"—(Mr. Cave.)
Question proposed, " That the word ' sufficient' stand part of the Clause."
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,)said he thought the word " guarantee" was sufficient. What they wanted to do was simply to bring before the minds of the Commissioners that they must have some good grounds to go upon that the school was going to be carried on for five years. It was not a long period, and what Parliament had done was to give an indication of their opinion. A general assurance was not sufficient; what the Commissioners had to consider was whether the proposals put before them amounted to a reasonable guarantee. He did not consider that the words proposed by the hon. Member would make things any bettor. The word " guarantee" brought to the minds of the Commissioners the very point the Government wished. They would not put any strict legal definition upon the word, but they would take care that a positive assurance would be given that the school should be carried on; he thought the words as they stood were-good words and should be retained.
SIR E. CARSONpointed out that the sub-section enacted that a guarantee should be given. He wished to know by whom the guarantee would be given and in whose interests? He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should select some words which.

537
would reasonably satisfy the Commissioners and at the same time be more specific.
SIR GILBERT PARKER (Gravesend)thought that the Minister for Education would be well advised in substituting the words " reasonable assurance," because the word " guarantee " was open to much misconstruction and misinterpretation by the Commissioners.
MR. EVELYN CECILdid not think they should insist upon so strong a word us " guarantee."
MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid that the word "guarantee" meant some promise which contained a legal obligation.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the Minister for Education had stated over and over again that the new court would fulfil the same functions as the Charity Commissioners and the Chancery Court, and would give their decisions upon the same principles. He had never heard that it was the principle of the Court of Chancery or of the Charity Commissioners to require guarantees for the fulfilment of the trusts so long as trusts were being fulfilled. It seemed to him that the whole sub-section really violated the principles laid down by the Minister for Education in his speeches. He urged the Minister in charge of the Bill to do every thing he could to mitigate the severity of the section, and suggested that he would be well advised to accept some words less rigid than the words which stood upon the Paper. The more the Bill was mitigated the more it would conform to the intentions expressed by the Minister for Education.
MR. BIRRELLsaid that the object of the words was to afford the Commissioners reasons for determining what should comprise a sufficient guarantee. In his opinion the word " guarantee" was a very good one and quite adequate. Anyone who read this clause would see that the Commissioners had imposed upon them the legal obligation of making schemes, and if a trust was in anything like default and the trustees came to the Court of Chancery nothing would be easier than to require some assurance or guarantee that they were in a position to keep their word. The duties of the
538
Commissioners ought not to be confounded in this way, and the people who said they were able to keep a school going for five years should be in a position to satisfy the Commissioners that they were able to do so.
Amendment negatived.
SIR HENRY CRAIKsaid a principle of great importance was involved in the Amendment which he proposed. It had been said of the right hon. Gentleman that the sub-sections were only illustrative or superfluous. But sub-section (a) was something more than this. The Minister for Education said the course followed by the Commissioners would be precisely that of any Court of Justice, but was it possible that such, a Court could hold that a proposal to carry on a trust in exactly the same way as it had been carried on before, with instruction precisely the same as from the beginning, was not carrying out the spirit of the trust? Was it a proper mode of giving effect to it when the only alternative means by which it could be effected was by requiring that the school should pass under an authority which was not in existence or even contemplated when the trust was founded It seemed to him that a sub-section like that was neither illustrative nor descriptive, and that it introduced into the action of the Commissioners a consideration of an entirely new kind which was subversive altogether of trusts, and one which no Court would ever be likely to follow in deciding what was or was not a proper means of giving effect to the trust. What did this guarantee which was to be demanded amount to? The President of the Board of Education said it was not to be too exactly defined and that it was not necessary for any rich men to give the guarantee, and that poor men would do quite as well. How was a guarantee which implied the supporting of a school at great expense for five years to be given without being backed by some man of means? What means had the parents for giving such a guarantee? If a school, say, of 100 scholars was to be carried on without rate aid or grant, the expenditure could not be less than £400 a year, and

539
to guarantee that amount for five years was exacting something that had never before been exacted from any school in the past, and no school in the future could undertake to fulfil it. The homes of the children might be moved, there might be a great change in the population, the school might become useless, and then the guarantee would not only become useless, but impossible to fulfil. It really meant that they were imposing a condition which had never before been imposed upon a public elementary school in the country, and it was a condition which most school managers would declare was impossible of fulfilment. Was it the right hon. Gentleman's intention to stamp out of existence the voluntary schools, even in cases where they were asking for no help from the Parliamentary grant and no assistance from the rates? The President of the Board of Trade had told them " clericalism was the enemy," and they knew the source from which he got that phrase. Had the Minister for Education derived his inspiration from the same source? He thought the words he suggested were a better and a sounder alternative than the guarantee proposed' and he hoped they would be accepted.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 19, to leave out from the word ' sufficient,' to the word ' and,' in line 21, and insert the words ' evidence is furnished that such a proposal is in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the parents of children attending the school.' "—(Sir Herbert Craik.)
Question proposed, " That the words to the word 'for' in page 5, line 21 stand part of the clause."
MR. BIRRELLreminded the Committee that Clause 1 placed certain obligations upon voluntary schools, and it was impossible to go back upon or disregard the principle laid down in that clause. The point they were now considering was that where a school could satisfy the Commissioners that it could keep its doors open for five years, it should be allowed to come under this sub-section. They were now considering the financial, not the educational position. The whole motive of this proposal was to substitute the wishes of the parents, and it was really irrele
540
vant to sub-section (a). If the parents were in a position to promise financial support that might be sufficient, but the mere fact that the parents wished the schools to continue was not relevant to the matter with which they were now dealing. Therefore he could not accept the Amendment, which was inconsistent with the whole scope of Clause 1. A school had got to fulfil its trust as best it could, and the trustees might be bound by the decision of the Commissioners to transfer their school to the local authority as the only means of carrying out the trust. If the trustees were in a position to give a guarantee for the effective continuance of the school they would get the benefit of the clause. That was a financial consideration, and had nothing whatever to do with the wishes of the parents.
SIR WILLIAM ANSON (Oxford University)said the Amendment was intended to meet the case of schools which otherwise did not fall under this Bill at all. That being so, they were surely entitled to look to the circumstances and conditions of the case, and to ascertain not merely whether the financial position of the trustees was adequate, but also whether there was a general desire that the school should go on under the exceptional conditions created by the Bill. He thought this clause was not merely financial, but that it related to schools outside the purview of the rest of the Bill.
LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)said the Commissioners were to be empowered to make a scheme with respect to the best mode in which effect could be given to the trusts of the schoolhouse in future, but they were not to be allowed to do so unless certain conditions were satisfied. That was to say, the Commissioners were not to give the best effect that could be given to the trusts unless " sufficient guarantee is given to the effective continuance of the school for a period of at least five years." That was a perfectly unreasonable doctrine. He could understand the Government saving that they were not to be allowed to carry on a school as a certified efficient school, even if it was

541
the best way of carrying out the trusts, unless the parents wished it. That was the Amendment of his hon. friend. He did not understand why any question of five years should arise. It appeared to him that the continuance of the school was a matter which might well be left entirely to the trustees. The question whether the parents desired the school was one which the Commissioners might not—he did not know that they would be entitled to—consider in determining the best way of carrying out the purposes of the trusts.
SIR E. CARSONasked whether the Committee were to understand that if the trustees of a school desired to carry it on without any aid from the State, and if the parents of a majority of the children attending the school also desired to carry it on without any aid from the State, it would not be possible to do so after this Bill passed.
MR. BIRRELLsaid the duty of the Commissioners was to see that effect
was given to the trusts, and in order to see that a school could be effectively carried on surely it was necessary to see that it would be effectively carried on for some time. If the trustees could snap their fingers and say, " We can get on without you, as our forefathers did," that was giving effect to the trust, and he did not think they should find fault. But it should be remembered that the local education authority had to consider the educational needs of the whole area, and that it had to satisfy itself that there was proper school accommodation for the whole of the children in the area. It was entitled to know what schools it could look to for performing this function. He did not think there was anything unreasonable in asking a sufficient guarantee for the effective continuance of the school for a period of five years.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 236; Noes, 120. (Division List No! 193.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Agnew, George William

Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles

Fuller, John Michael F.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Byles, William Pollard

Fullerton, Hugh

Alden, Percy

Cameron, Robert

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Gill, A. H.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. HerbertHenry

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn

Astbury, John Meir

Cheetham, John Frederick

Glendinning, R. G.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Gooch, George Peabody

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Griffith, Ellis J.

Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Clough, W.

Grove, Archibald

Parker, John

Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Gulland, John W.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Collins, SirWm. J.(S. Pancras, W.)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Barnard, E. B.

Cooper, G. J.

Hall, Frederick

Beale, W. P.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Beauchamp, E.

Cory, Clifford John

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hart-Davies, T.

Beck, A. Cecil

Cowan, W. H.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Bellairs. Carlyon

Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Benn, W.(T'w'Harmlets, S. Geo.

Cremer, William Randal

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Bennett, E. N.

Crombie, John William

Hedges, A. Paget

Bertram, Julius

Crosfield, A. H.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Dalziel, James Henry

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Henry, Charles S.

Billson, Alfred

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Hon., S.)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras N.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Higham, John Sharp

Brace, William

Dunne, MajorE. Martin(Walsall

Hobart, Sir Robert

Bramsdon, T. A.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Branch, James

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Elibank, Master of

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

Ellis, Rt. Hon John Edward

Horniman, Emslie John

Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen

Evans, Samuel T.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

Everett, R. Lacey

Hudson, Walter

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Ferens, T. R.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Jardine, Sir J.

Paul, Herbert

Strachey, Sir Edward

Jenkins, J.

Paulton, James Mellor

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Perks, Robert William

Summerbell, T.

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Jowett, F. W.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury

Kekewich. Sir George

Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

Thomasson, Franklin

Laidlaw, Robert

Radford, G. H.

Thorne, William

Lambert, George

Rainy, A. Holland

Tomkinson, James

Lamont, Norman

Raphael, Herbert H.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Rees, J. D.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)

Rendall, Athelstan

Ure, Alexander

Lehmann, R. C.

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

Verney, F. W.

Levy, Maurice

Rickett, J. Compton

Vivian, Henry

Lewis, John Herbert

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

Walker, H. De R.(Leicester)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Robertson. SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

Wallace, Robert

Lough, Thomas

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Lupton, Arnold

Robinson, S.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Ward, John(Stoke-upon-Trent)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Wardle, George J.

Macdonald, J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

M'Callum, John M.

Rowlands, J.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Runciman, Walter

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Russell, T. W.

Waterlow, D. S.

M'Micking, Major G.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Whit bread, Howard

Maddison, Frederick

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Marnham, F. J.

Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Massie, J.

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Wiles, Thomas

Masterman, C. F. G.

Sears, J. E.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Menzies, Walter

Seaverns, J. H.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Seely, Major J. B.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Montagu, E. S.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Morrell, Philip

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Morse, L. L.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Woodhouse, SirJT(Hudd'rsfi'l d

Murray, James

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Yoxall, James Henry

Myer, Horatio

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Nicholls, George

Soares, Ernest J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncaster

Spicer, Sir Albert

Norman, Henry

Stanger, H. Y.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E).

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Flynn, James Christopher

Acland-Hood, RtHn. SirAlex. F.

Claney, John Joseph

Forster, Henry William

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Ginnell, L.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Gordon, SirW. Evans.(T'rHam)

Arnold-Forster, RtHn. HughO.

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Halpin, J.

Ashley, W. W.

Courthope, G. Loyd

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

Balcarres, Lord

Craig, CharlesCurtis(AntrimS.

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Balfour, RtHn. A. J.(City Lond.)

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Crean, Eugene

Hayden, John Patrick

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Cullinan, ..

Hazleton, Richard

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Delany, William

Heaton, John Henniker

Beach, Hn. MichaelHugh Hicks

Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway

Helmsley, Viscount

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Blake, Edward

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Hogan, Michael

Boland. John

Donelan, Captain A.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

Bull, Sir William James

Du Cros, Harvey

Kilbride, Denis

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Duffy, William J.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Burke, E. Haviland-

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Faber, George Denison (York)

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

Carlile, E. Hildred

Fell, Arthur

Liddell, Henry

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Cave, George

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Lundon, W.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Fletcher, J. S.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

544

545

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

O'Shee, James John

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Parker, SirGillbert(Gravesend)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G(Oxf'd Univ.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Pease, HerbertPike (Darlington

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Turnour, Viscount

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Valentin, Viscount

Meagher, Michael

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Mooney, J. J.

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Nolan, Joseph

Redmond, William (Clare)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.'

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Young, Samuel

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Younger, George

O'Hare, Patrick

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Henry Craik and Lord Robert Cecil.

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

O'Malley, William

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton

O'Mara, James

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Sullivan, Donal

MR. MIDDLEMOREsaid that the intention of this Bill seemed to be to destroy the Church schools, although not the Jewish, Roman Catholic, and very few of the Wesleyan schools. Clause 8 was aimed specially at Church schools, and it was because of the animus of hon. Gentlemen opposite they were to be destroyed. A five years guarantee was impossible. The amount of money to be given was too much. He had been told by an hon. Gentleman who sat below him and who was an expert, that it would mean £400,000 a year. Elderly men, who might be asked to give a guarantee, would die in the meantime, and the whole guarantee would be unsatisfied, and young men who had given a guarantee might emigrate. Five years was too large a part of a man's life for him to feel confidence in giving a guarantee to maintain the present management of a Church school for that period. Therefore he moved to substitute "one" for "five."
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 21, to leave out the words 'five years ' and insert the words ' one year.' " —(Mr. Middlemore.)
Question proposed, " That the words 'five years' stand part of the clause."
MR. BIRRELLsaid he was unable to agree with his hon. friend that a period of five years was too long as showing the amount of support which might be given by the neighbourhood to a particular school, nor could he believe that it was an impossible guarantee. It had not been suggested that the
546
guarantee should be in the form of a sum named or anything of that kind. It was simply left to the Commission to satisfy themselves that there was a sufficient guarantee that the parents in the neighbourhood would continue to support the school in an efficient state. The guarantee of five years, he thought, did not go really beyond the necessities of the case. In fact, the Government had considered this point very carefully and some people thought that five years was too short a period. They must remember that the local authority had to consider the responsibility which was placed upon them and that they must know whether the school was likely to be continued to be supported.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that this was only another instance of the way in which the Bill would affect injuriously the rural districts. In these districts it might be quite impossible to get more than one or two gentlemen to support a school continuously or for more than one year. He thought the right hon. Gentleman forgot that it was not a mere general assurance or general statement to the Commission which was required, but that a guarantee was to be given.
MR. BIRRELL: A sufficient guarantee.
SIR WILLIAM ANSON: A sufficient guarantee for the effective continuance of the school for five years. Everybody knew that a guarantee was a technical term. He knew that it was sometimes used in a colloquial sense;

547
but if the Commission acted with the powers of the Court of Chancery they would not use legal phraseology in that sense. The only persons who could give a guarantee would be very few, and he thought these persons would rather shrink from the term " guarantee." Nothing could happen under this clause unless demanded by the local education authority. Under these circumstances it would be exceedingly hard to insist upon this continuous assurance for five years, when they might get persons or bodies to give the guarantee from year to year. He admitted that the term of five years might not be excessive in urban districts where there were persons of wealth in considerable numbers who contributed to denominational schools, but he ventured to think that it was likely to impose very great hardship on the rural districts where there might be only one school to which the neighbourhood was attached and which might be continued if a large landowner in the neighbourhood were permitted to give an assurance for a year at a time, when he would not be likely to give it under the severe terminology of the clause.
MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid he would like the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider this question. If he could not agree to one year he might agree to three years, which he himself had ventured to suggest in an Amendment standing in his name. For himself he thought that if the Commission found that the school had been carried on efficiently, a guarantee for one year was quite as good as a guarantee for five years if there was evidence that there were really people of ability behind it. There were difficulties about a formal guarantee, and the piling up of conditions made it a formidable undertaking. In many rural districts where the owner of a property had only a title for life, he might be perfectly willing to give a guarantee for one year, but would hesitate to give a guarantee for five years. After all, these schools would have to be brought before the Commission by the local education authority, and he
548
thought it would be rather unreasonable that the whole strength of the local education authority should be brought into force to make an additional barrier in the way of carrying on these schools. He pleaded with the right hon. Gentleman to accept the modified term of three years.
SIR E. CARSONcould not see why the Minister for Education should say that five years was of great importance Supposing the guarantee failed after one year, what would happen? Would anybody be sued? He could not see what the value of the five years guarantee would be, because, as he understood the Bill, if a school was not continued as efficient, the work of that school would not be a sufficient compliance with the Education Act, so that it would be no longer of any use as a public elementary school. It should be sufficient to have a guarantee renewed from year to year.
MR. SAMUEL ROBERTSsaid he thought it would be a very serious thing for any person to give a guarantee for such a long period as five years. The liability to take on this responsibility for a period of five years might place the trustees in a very unfortunate position.
MR. BIRRELLquite agreed that the sub-section did not give them very much, but they were trying to get what they could. Supposing a guarantee was given and it appeared that the school could be made an efficient school, and it paid to make it one then the local education authority was under a responsibility to take it over. Let the Committee consider the difficulty of the local education authority, if the guarantee was not forthcoming. They would be unable to ascertain their liabilities. This sub-section was not a protection of the local education authority at all because the local education authority might, if the guarantee after two or three years failed, find that the school was of no use, the children could no longer go to it, and they would be burdened with the responsibility of providing a site and buildings

549
for themselves. It seemed to him important that the Commission should be able to protect the local authority against such a contingency. That was the reason why the Government had named a date, which would make the persons who wished to maintain their school as an efficient school see the responsibility they would assume, and make them come forward with such an amount of support as would satisfy the Commissioners that they would be able to keep their school going for five years. He thought the argument was in favour of retaining the words of the sub-section.
MR. A. J. BALFOURthought the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman threw a strong light upon the whole object and intention of the sub-section, which seemed to be to impose a fine upon particular trustees so that they should be forced to give up their trusts, in favour of the local authority, in order that the school might be carried on. Such a course would be a very gross injustice, and would be very hard upon voluntary schools. In the parallel case of a hospital supported by voluntary contributions; who could guarantee that those subscriptions would be continued for five years? The provision would impose a severe disability upon trustees which should not be imposed upon them except for an adequate cause. What was the adequate cause put forward in this case? Education would, he thought, suffer unless the proposal of his friend were accepted. Suppose the right hon. Gentleman, instead of insisting upon five years,
assented to a proposal of one year, and at the end of two years it was found impossible for the philanthropists or parents in the neighbourhood to provide the accommodation, and they could not carry on the school. The Commission would then say that they must allow the local education authority to take over the school. Why not wait till that contingency happened? The right hon. Gentleman was really, by his own admission, trying to warp and pervert the practice of the Court of Chancery, which appeared so prominently in his speeches, by requiring the Court to impose an obligation which was absolutely of a destructive character. It was a fine so heavy that it could not be paid. It was a condition so onerous that it could not be complied with, and it was imposed because it could not be complied with and in order to drive the trustees into the arms of the local authorities. It was not justified in the interests of the children; it was not justified in the legitimate interests of the local authorities or the ratepayers; and it was profoundly injurious to the trustees.
MR. BRIDGEMANwished to know why it was that in this particular kind of school a guarantee was to be exacted which was not exacted in regard to any of the existing certified schools.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 252;. Noes, 131. (Division List No. 194.)

AYES.

Agnew, George William

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Billson, Alfred

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Alden Percy

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire

Clarke, C. Goddard

Astbury, John Meir

Brace, William

Cleland, J. W.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Bramsdon, T. A.

Clough, W.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Branch, James

Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Cooper, G. J.

Barker, John

Brooke, Stopford

Corbett, CH(Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Barnard, E. B.

Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen)

Cory, Clifford John

Beale, W. I'.

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Beauchamp, K.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Cowan, W. H.

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)

Beck, A. Cecil

Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles

Cremer, William Randal

Bellairs, Carlyon

Byles, William Pollard

Crombie, John William

Benn, W.(Tow'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Cameron, Robert

Crosfleld, A. H.

Bennett, E. N.

Causton. Rt. Hn. RickardKnight

Dalziel, James Henry

Bertram, Julius

Chance, Frederick William

Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.)

Davies, M. Vaughan - (Cardigan

Laidlaw, Robert

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Dewar, John A. (Inveniess-sh.)

Lambert, George

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Dickinson, W. H(St. Pancras, N

Lamont, Norman

Schwann. Sir C.E. (Manchester)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Scott, A.H.(Ashton and. Lyne)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lea, HughCecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Sears, J. E.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Levy, Maurice

Seaverns, J. H.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lewis, John Herbert

Seely, Major J. B.

Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Shackleton, David James

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lough, Thomas

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lupton, Arnold

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Edwards, Frank (Radner)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Elibank, Master of

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Macdonald, J. M.(FalkirkB'ghs

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Erskine, David C.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Essex, R. W.

M'Callum, John M.

Soares, Krnest J.

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Kenna, Reginald

Spicer, Sir Albert

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Stanger, H. Y.

Ferens, T. R.

M'Micking, Major G.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Maddison, Frederick

Strachey, Sir Edward

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Strauss, B.S. (Mile End)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Marnham, F. J.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Fullerton, Hugh

Massie, J.

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Menzies, Walter

Summerbell, T.

Gill, A. H.

Moltono, Perce Alport

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Gladstone. Rt. HnHerbertJohn

Montagu, E. S.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Glendinning, R. G.

Morrell, Philip

Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

Gooch, George Peabody

Morse, L. L.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Murray, James

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Griffith, Ellis J.

Myer, Horatio

Thomasson, Franklin

Grove, Archibald

Napier, T. B.

Thorne, William

Gulland, John W.

Nicholls, George

Tomkinson, James

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Hall, Frederick

Norman, Henry

Trevelyan, Charles Phillips

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Ure, Alexander

Hardy, George, A. (Suffolk)

Nuttall, Harry

Verney, F. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Vivian, Henry

Harmsworth, R.L(Caithn'ss sh

Paul, Herbert

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Hart-Davies, T.

Paulton, James Mellor

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Ward, John(Stokeupon Trent)

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Perks, Robert William

Wardle, George J.

Hedges, A. Paget

Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

Warner, ThomasCouitenayT.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Henderson. J.M.(Aberdeen, W.

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney

Henry, Charles S.

Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Waterlow, D. S.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon., S.

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

Whithread, Howard

Herbert, T. Arnold(Wycombe)

Radford, G. H.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Higham, John Sharp

Rainy, A. Holland

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Raphael, Herbert H.

Whitehead, Rowland

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Rees, J. D.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Hodge, John

Rendall, Athelstan

Wiles, Thomas

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Renton, Major Leslie

Williams, J. (Glamorgan

Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

Horniman, Emslie John

Rickett, J. Compton

Williamson, A.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Hudson, Walter

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull, W.

Hyde, Clarendon

Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Robinson, S.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Jardine, Sir J.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Huddersf'd

Jenkins, J.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Yoxall, James Henry

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rowlands, J.

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

Runciman, Walter

Russell, T. W.

Kearley, Hudson E.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Balcarres, Lord

Ambrose, Robert

Arnold-Forster, RtHn. HughO.

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Ashley, W. W.

Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey)

Anstruther-Grey, Major

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

552

553

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Forster, Henry William

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Hare, Patrick

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Ginnell, L.

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gordon, SirW. Evans-(T'rHam.

O'Maliey, William

Blake, Edward

Haddock, George R.

O'Mara, James

Boland, John

Halpin, J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd)

O'Shee, James John

Bull, Sir William James

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Parker, SirGilbert(Gravesead)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hayden, John Patrick

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

Burke, E. Haviland.

Hazleton, Richard

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Heaton, John Henniker

Power, Patrick Joseph

Carlile, E. Hildred

Helmsley, Viscount

Rasch, Sir Frederick Came

Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward H.

Hervey, F. W. F. (B my S. Edm'ds

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Cave, George

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hogan, Michael

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Hunt, Rowland

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

Kennedy, Vineant Paul

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Clancy, John Joseph

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Kilbride, Denis

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford East)

Court hope, G. Lloyd

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Craig, Charles Curtis(AntrimS.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Starkey, John R.

Craig, CaptainJames(Down, E.)

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

Sullivan, Donal

Craik, Sir Henry

Liddell, Henry

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Crean, Eugene

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Talbot, Rt. HnJ. G.(OxfdUniv

Cullinan, .J.

Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

Delany, William

Lundon, W.

Thornton, Percy M.

Devlin, CharlesRamsayfGalway

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Turnout', Viscount

Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)

Warde, Col. C E. (Kent, Mid.)

Dolan, Charles Joseph

M'Kean, John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Donelan, Captain A.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wilson. A. Stanley (York. E.R.)

Du Cros, Harvey

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Wolff. Gustav Wilhelm

Duffy, William J.

Meagher, Michael

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Faber, George Denison (York.)

Mooney, J. J.

Young, Samuel

Fell, Arthur

Murphy, John

Younger, George

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Nolan, Joseph

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Fletcher, J. S.

O'Brien, Patrice (Kilkenny)

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

MR. MIDDLEMOREmoved to leave out from " is" to " they," and insert " advisable," in order to protest against the wording of this sub-section, which seemed to him about the most satirical and cynical bit of printing he had ever read. The Government said they proposed to give effect to the trusts, and they proposed to give effect to them by abolishing them; they proposed to give effect to their affections by murdering the object of them. Why could not the Government say what they meant in plain words and save the Committee this al most Satanic cynicism. They were not going to give effect to the trusts in any legitimate way; they were going to abolish them, and the best way they could do that was to say so in plain and palpable language. The Government had adopted Dr. Clifford's policy; why did not they adopt his manly and straightforward attitude. Dr. Clifford—
THE CHAIRMANhoped the hon. Member would make plain the relevancy of his remarks to the Amendment.
MR. MIDDLEMOREsaid he wished to protest against the cynical language of the clause. It had given him and others considerable pain. He did, however, now make his brief protest and would not make any further demand on the patience of the Committee.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 24, to leave out from the word ' is' to the word ' they,' in line 25, and to insert the word ' advisable.' " — (Mr. Middlemore.)
LORD BALCARRESmoved to leave out the word " best,"

555
and insert the word " only " in line 25. They were told that the object of this clause was only to deal with charitable trusts. That being so, the word " only " was, in his opinion, better than " best." The words would then read " only mode of giving effect to the trusts." He supposed the right hon. Gentleman would object to this Amendment; and if he did he (Lord Balcarres) hoped he would explain to what the word " best" was meant to apply, and thus aid the Committee to come to a decision.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 25, to leave out the word ' best.' and to insert the word 'only.'" — (Lord Balcarres.)
Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
MR. BIRRELLsaid the word best was employed to bring in the doctrine of cypress. The Commissioners had to consider this problem. A school was governed by a particular trust to provide for the education of the children of a particular parish for ever. Then came difficulties as to finance. The trustees could not give the assurance required; they had no money; they had in the past carried on their trust with public money. Then came this legislation which put upon the Commissioners the task of determining whether or not the best way of carrying out the trust would not be to transfer the school to the public authority. That night not be the only way, but the best way. The word " best" simply enabled the Commissioners to apply the principle of cypres if the best way of giving effect to the trusts was to transfer them.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid they started with the assumption that this was a mixed trust and that there were other things besides giving elementary education which the trustees had to do. Then came a conflict with the local authority which might have arisen in various ways as to the terms of taking over, and the local authority took the school before the Commission. Were the Commissioners to have no guidance whatever in considering these matters? Under the Act of 1902 when the Board of Education had to
556
determine whether a school of this or that character was to be allowed they were told they had to consider the interests of the rate-payers, the area the school was to provide for, and the wishes of the parents. Did the word best include all or any of these things. What was the line they would have to take if they had to make a scheme for the school? It seemed to him that these different issues ought to be taken in the instructions to the Commissioners.
SIR E. CARSONsaid he did not think on examination the Amendment of the noble Lord was a suitable Amendment at the moment, and he would ask his noble friend not to press it to a division. They had the assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that in the case of a mixed trust the Commissioners would not make a scheme at all.
MR. BIRRELL: The alternative trusts we do not touch.
SIR E. CARSONsaid it was quite apparent, therefore, that the matter which the noble Lord tried to guard against really did not enter into consideration here at all. There might be the case of a mixed trust where the trustees of the school did not wish to raise the objection that it was a mixed trust, and in that case if it were best to carry the school on as a public elementary school the trustees might even be consenting parties to it; otherwise the trust might be left in a derelict form and of no use at all to the public. That would be somewhat of a misfortune to the public and the object of the trust. For that reason he did not think the noble Lord ought to press the Amendment. At the same time he failed to understand the reason the right hon. Gentleman had given for opposing the Amendment. It was the first time he had ever heard that the Court of Chancery could not carry out the doctrine of cypres. He should have thought it was the very element of the case.
MR. BIRRELL: So it is.
SIR E. CARSON: Then why put this in again if they have the power already to carry out the cypress doctrine?
MR. BIRRELLsaid it was in order to enable them to give rent.
SIR E. CARSONquite agreed that that was the object of the clause, but that was not the object of the word " best." If the word was not there at all, the object stated by the right hon. Gentleman would be secured. He could not help thinking the right hon. Gentleman was not candid in the matter.
MR. BIRRELL: I may be stupid, but I am quite candid.
SIR E. CARSON: I do not think anyone would accuse the right hon. Gentleman of being stupid.
MR. BIRRELL: I would much sooner be thought stupid than not candid.
SIR E. CARSONsaid it was quite obvious that the Court of Chancery had the power of carrying out the cypress doctrine, and what he really feared was that there was some hidden meaning behind this word " best." It seemed on the right hon. Gentleman's own argument to be absolutely unnecessary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONmoved to leave out the words after " scheme" in line 26 and to insert words requiring the local education authority to comply with such conditions as to payment or otherwise not being inconsistent with the Act. He said he only desired the President of the Board of Education to carry out the undertaking he gave when he introduced the Bill. Under the clause as it stood the trustees of a school might endeavour to make an arrangement with the local authority under Clause 2, but negotiations having failed in attaining this object, the local authority might bring the trustees before the Commission—which he supposed would be ambulatory—and the Commission, having inspected the schools and taken evidence, might come to the conclusion that on the whole the arrangement proposed by the trustees was a suitable and equitable one in accordance with the cypress doctrine. A scheme would accordingly be made, and up to that
558
moment there was no reason to suppose it would not be carried into effect. But then the local authority might refuse to agree and the school might be left derelict. What the local education authority agreed to do came first in the clause, and what the Commission thought to be just came second, and that seamed to him to put the Commission in a somewhat inferior position to the High Court, because when the High Court made a scheme he did not suppose it was open to either party to snap their fingers at the Court simply because they did not approve of the entire scheme. He therefore asked the right hon. Gentleman to make the clause what he said the clause would be when he introduced the Bill, giving them clearly to understand that the local authority would be required to adopt the scheme which the Commission thought just, and which embodied what they considered to be the best mode of carrying out the trust.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 26, after the word ' scheme,' to insert the words ' require the local education authority to comply with such conditions as to payment or otherwise not being inconsistent with this Act.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
MR. BIRRELLsaid he quite agreed that there was a point of substance in the Amendment. The condition of affairs was quite obvious under this clause. The local education authority had to take the trustees before the Commissioners either because of the terms, or in the event of the trustees being unwilling to be taken over, to ascertain whether or not the school was bound to be taken over owing to the nature of the trust. Therefore the matter rested entirely in the option of the local authority who, casting their eye abroad and fixing upon a school as being a desirable one for their educational system, accordingly endeavoured to come to terms. They might fail to do so, either because the trustees did not agree to the terms or because they objected to be taken over at all. On either one of these reasons, or because of both, they went before the Commissioners; he dared say the Commissioners would

559
often visit the places, but it was not for him to say. He thought it would be unreasonable and unfair if, after the Commissioners had thrashed the whole matter out, and decided that the school was bound to be transferred, even against the will of the trustees or owners, and had fixed the terms, the local authority were to say, " We do not like these terms, and we will disregard them." He did not think that would be a satisfactory arrangement, and, without wishing to be reminded of anything he said before, he was quite desirous that this should be set right now. There were one or two words he would like an opportunity of adding on Report. Everyone desired that there should be as little litigation as possible, and that people should not come before the Commission and then discover what they might have known before, namely, that the trust was, for example, one of the alternative kind, over which the Commissioners had no real power. Therefore words ought to be inserted making it obligatory on the owners or trustees to give the local authority the opportunity of seeing the exact words of the trust, so that the owner might not be taken before the Commissioners ons peculation. He did not think this was a sort of tribunal that ought to be attended at great expense by great luminaries of the law. He hoped it would not become the scene of forensic eloquence and forensic costs. The matters with which it would have to deal were matters which could fairly be intrusted to the ordinary legal officers of the parties concerned and to the men of business connected with the local authorities. Consequently the authorities should be fully forewarned ' and forearmed. The proper course to adopt would be to omit the words " as may be agreed to by the local education authority and " in line 28 and the first word in line 29. The Clause would then read— "or other matters as the Commission think just." He thought that would fulfil his obligations and would also meet the justice and equity of the case. There was only one point which had occurred to him and that was the terms, and in regard to that matter he thought the local authority might very properly have a voice. Suppose the local authority
560
wanted to take over the school for ten years and the Commission suggested fifteen or twenty years—that was a matter in which the local authority should not be bound by the view of the-Commission. On the question of rent, of course, the judgment of the Commission should be final, but the question of the term was one upon which the local authority ought not to be absolutely bound by the finding of the Commission. He intended to introduce words which would make it obligatory on both sides to disclose their case to each other and make known their points. Subject to that understanding he would move his Amendment.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that in view of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman he would withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, to leave out line 28, and the first word in line 29.''—(Mr. Birrel.)
Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
SIR E. CARSONexpressed his satisfaction with the way in which the Minister for Education had carried out his promise. He entirely agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that there ought to be an elimination of all those matters which might render the proceedings before the Commissioners nugatory. The local education authority ought to put their points before the managers and the managers should produce their trust deeds. He did not think there should be any very expensive legal judgments, because the trusts were not in such a flourishing condition as to be able to spend large sums upon legal proceedings. He thought they ought to do everything they could to save as much of the trust funds as possible for the purposes of the trust.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONalso xpressed his satisfaction with the concession which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman.
MR. PERKSwas afraid the concession of the right hon. Gentleman was a rather serious curtailment of the power of the local authority. It seemed to be open to the objection that the voluntary school owners and managers might be taken by the local authority before the new tribunal, and after costs had been incurred terms for the use of the voluntary schools might be held to be equitable by the judicial Commission, which the local authority might find extremely onerous. It was manifest that the costs incurred by the local authority in bringing the voluntary school managers before the tribunal would be an unjust imposition even if proceedings were limited in the way which the Minister for Education fondly hoped would be the case. He doubted whether the hope of the right, hon. Gentleman that the legal fraternity would be excluded from these inquiries would be realised. He was afraid that the most acute legal minds would have to be brought to bear to interpret some of the clauses. What was the position of the local education authority in the presence of this Amendment? They were bound to accept the judgment of the judicial Commission for the taking over of these voluntary schools, and they might have to take them over on conditions which might prove onerous to the locality. They might even prefer to put up their own new school fitted with all modern requirements. Under these circumstances it would be infinitely better to make the local authority repay to the managers of those schools the costs of any such abortive inquiry. The local authority would be able to inspect the school deeds before they embarked upon the legal inquiry, and therefore under such circumstances it was quite reasonable that they should pay the cost of the inquiry. He did not think it was wise, in the interests of education, that the local authorities, come what might, should be forced to take over the schools even on the conditions which the Commissioners might determine. He earnestly hoped that the Government would in some way, provide that the power now possessed by the local authority in the Bill as drawn should not be taken away from them.
MR. R. PEARCEthought the Opposition would regret that this Amendment was ever put forward. The effect of it would be that in many places the local authorities would not bring the trustees before the Commission. By this clause the scheme of the Commissioners would have the effect of an Act of Parliament, without possibility of any review or appeal, and the local authority would be bound by whatever happened to be done by the scheme. The consequence would be that the local authority would much rather build a school of their own over which they would have complete control than take over a. voluntary school. He regretted that the clause as it originally stood had been marred in any particular.
MR. LEIF JONESsaid that in regard to material things it was quite reasonable that the local education authority, having taken unwilling trustees before the judicial Commissioners, should abide by their decision. Under the section as it, stood when the trustees had been before the Commissioners and a scheme had been drawn up, the local authority could say, " Yes, that scheme seems reasonable and we will accept it." But by the concession which had now been made that power was taken out of the hands of the local authority. When they talked of " payment or other matters " it seemed to him rather important that they should know precisely what those other matters were, and how far the powers of the Commissioners were to go in regard to them. Before this concession was made this was immaterial from the public point of view, because the authority could refuse to take the school over, but now they would have to accept the scheme and therefore they ought to know exactly what responsibility was involved in taking the trustees of a school before the Commissioners. There was a danger that unless the local education authorities were quite clear as to the responsibility they were incurring they would be very unwilling to take trustees before the Commission at all for the purpose of getting schemes drawn up. He appealed to the Minister for Education to consider whether the words " other matters" should not be more carefully

563
defined in order that local authorities might know where they stood.
MR. BIRRELLsaid the scheme contemplated under Clause 8 was a substitute for the voluntary agreement under Clause 2. The "other matters" contemplated were the rent, the term of years, it might be the time of day when the schoolhouse would be required, and things of that kind. His hon. friend was a little anxious about the " facilities." He himself did not see that the facilities had anything whatever to do with the matter. The facilities referred to were those given by the Act, and the Commissioners would have no power to extend them for denominational teaching beyond what was contemplated and proposed by the Act itself. He thought there was no occasion for the local authority to be nervous as to the terrible things that this Commission might impose upon them, because nothing would be imposed on them that was not within the direct legal authorisation of the Act. He deprecated anything being put in the Bill which would interfere with the local authorities desiring to take schools over which they thought fitted in with their educational schemes. The religious facilities contemplated by the Act were the only facilities which the Commissioners would impose on them.
MR. CAVEmoved to leave out " or repair" and insert " enlargement or improvement" in line 31. He said the sub-section provided that in fixing the payment for the use of the school the Commissioners were to have regard to the grants or assistance, if any, received from public funds towards the building of repair of the schoolhouse. He did not himself consider that any deduction ' should be made for building grants, but in any case he thought the provision should be confined to capital expenditure, and should not extend to expenditure on ordinary repairs. Under the Act of 1902 the local authorities had been paying for the ordinary wear and tear of the non-provided schools. The effect of the Bill would be that the cost of these repairs would be charged against the schools and deducted from
564
any payment which the owners of the schools would otherwise have when taken over. To make a charge of that kind was not, he thought, a businesslike manner of dealing with the question. Personally, he objected to the whole clause, but he submitted that, at all events, the Amendment he now proposed should be made."
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 31, to leave out the words ' or repair,' and to insert the words ' enlargement or improvement.' ''—(Mr. Cave.)
Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.
MR. BIRRELLsaid he quite agreed that the words to which the hon. Member objected were not the proper words to use. The proper words were those which were to be found in Section 96 of the Act of 1870, namely, " enlarging, improving, or fitting up." He asked the hon. Member whether he would move the insertion of these words.
MR. CAVEobjected to the words "fitting up," and adhered to his proposal that the words inserted should be " enlargement or improvement," and not " enlarging or improving."
MR. BIRRELL: I will take your words.
MR. PERKSasked the Minister for Education whether the " public funds " referred to in the sub-section would cover monies which had been received by many of these voluntary schools from public corporations which gave donations and subscriptions simply to keep out school boards. In towns like Crewe, Rugby, and Ashford these enlargements and improvement of voluntary schools had been largely provided out of subscriptions from the railway companies given simply to keep down the rates. It would be very unjust if the Commissioners in settling the rent to be paid for the voluntary schools were told that they must only have regard to monies arising from public funds. " Public funds " was not defined in the Bill, and he wished to know whether it included subscriptions from these corporations.
MR. BIRRELLsaid he did not think it was possible for Parliament to inquire into the motives which induced these railway companies or any other subscribers to give to any fund. A great many public bodies conceived it to be part of their duty to provide education for the children of their employees and he thought it would be an impossible task—although the attempt would be one which his analytical mind would greatly enjoy—to ascertain the precise motive which induced either corporations or individuals to give millions or smaller sums. It was perfectly true there were towns where railway companies had subscribed funds for this particular purpose, but it would be impossible to treat their subscriptions as public funds within the meaning of the Act. He was obliged, therefore, to answer the Question in the negative.
MR. LEIF JONESasked the Minister for Education whether the words " fitting up " should not also be included in the Amendment. He was not sure that the case was met by the words " enlargement or improvement." If money had been spent in "fitting up" it seemed fair that it should be reckoned. He moved as an Amendment to the Amendment the addition of the words " fitting up."
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"At end to add 'or fitting up.'"—(Mr. Leif Jones.)
SIR FRANCIS POWELLmoved an Amendment providing that the Commission, in making an arrangement for the transfer of a schoolhouse to the local authority, should consider the grants or assistance received from public funds towards the building or repair of the schoolhouse "and the dates at which such grants or assistance were received." He pointed out that in old days ' the grants to supporters of voluntary-schools were given under something of the nature of a contract. There
566
was a condition that the promoters of the school should expend a similar amount, and when this had been done, there was no obligation remaining on one side or the other. Moreover, the amount paid by the Government for building Church of England schools was about £1,500,000, whereas the amount contributed by the friends of Church of England schools had exceeded £20,000,000. The beginning of building grants on a scale worthy of consideration was in 1840; and having regard to the deterioration of buildings which must, occur in sixty-five years it seemed to him most unjust to refer back to grants given at or near that period. Moreover, they knew what strong pressure had been put, and in his opinion rightly put, on the managers of schools by his hon. friend Mr. Acland, to improve their buildings, especially in regard to cloak-rooms, class-rooms and out offices. In consequence of such demands very large sums had been expended, and the charges made were in some instances so great that the old buildings might really be said to have disappeared. He did not think the Government meant to act unjustly, but unless there was direction given to the Commissioners that they should take into consideration the dates as well as the amounts of grants, great injustice and great wrong would be done.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 5, line 32, after the word 'school-house,' to insert the weds 'and the dates at which such grants or assistance were recived.''—(Sir Francis Powell.)
Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,)said that the Commissioners were directed in very general terms to take into consideration the whole circumstances; and he thought it would be very undesirable to give too minute directions in that regard.
SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that the question was whether they would do that without a direction in the statute.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid the words, "that the use of the schoolhouse for the

567
purpose of a public elementary school by the local education authority" were sufficient to show that the Commissioners would consider the amount of the grant and all the circumstances under which the grant was made, and the present value of the school. It would be inadvisable to enter into too minute details in the clause of the Bill, and he thought the general expression was sufficient.
LORD BALCARRESsaid the only objection which the hon. and learned Gentleman had made to accepting the Amendment was that it would encumber the clause; but even if the Amendment were accepted it would not unduly overburden the clause, and he thought the Commissioners would be able to master its contents. At any rate they would be making it clear that not only the amount but the date of the grants should be taken into consideration.
LORD R. CECILhoped the Government would accept the words. He understood the Solicitor-General to say that this sub-section directed the Commissioners not only to take into consideration the amount of the grants but all the circumstances under which they were made. The clause as it stood said that the Commissioners were to consider " the grants," not the circumstances under which they
were made. He could not suppose that there would be any general objection to adding the words " and all other circumstances affecting the grants." The Amendment of his hon. friend or those he suggested would only give effect to what the Solicitor-General had stated.
MR. LAURENCE HARDYhoped that the Government would undertake to consider this question before the Report stage.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid that the meaning was sufficiently clear already. If they stated one circumstance they would have to state all. The general reference was sufficient.
MR. LAURENCE HARDYcould not see what harm there would be in inserting words in the Bill enabling the Commissioners to consider the whole matter.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid the Commissioners were given a discretion which was indicated by the fact that they might take into view " such other circumstances as may in their opinion properly be considered."
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 152; Noes, 304. (Division List No. 195.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Duffy, William J.

Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSirAlexF.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

Ambrose, Robert

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.

Fell, Arthur

Anstruther-Gray. Major

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Fletcher. J. S.

Ashley, W. W.

Clancy, John Joseph

Flynn, James Christopher

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH.

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Forster, Henry William

Balcarres, Lord

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A, E.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Balfour, RtHn. A.J.(CityLond.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Gibbs, C. A. (Bristol, West)

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Ginnell, L.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Craig, CharlesCnrtis(AntriniS.

Gordon. Sir W. Evans(T'rHam.

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Craig, CaptainJanies(Down, E.

Haddock, George R.

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Craik, Sir Henry

Halpin, J.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Crean, Eugene

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

Blake, Edward

Cullinan, J.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Boland, John

Delany, William

Hayden, John Patrick

Bowles, G. Stuart

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Hazleton, Richard

Boyle, Sir Edward

Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

Heaton, John Henniker

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Helmsley, Viscount

Bull, Sir William James

Donelan, Captain A.

Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS. Edm'ds

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hill. Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Du Cros, Harvey

Hills, J. W.

Hogan, Michael

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Mooney, J. J.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Murphy, John

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Hunt, Rowland

Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. SirJohnH.

Nield, Herbert

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Nolan, Joseph

Smith, F. E.(Liverpool, Walton

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Keswick, William

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Starkey, John R.

Kilbride, Denis

O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W.)

Sullivan, Donal

Lambton, Hon. FrederickWm.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

Law, Andrew Bonar(Dulwich)

O'Hare, Patrick

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo. N.)

Thornton, Percy M.

Liddell, Henry

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon ,N.

Turnour, Viscount

Lockwood. Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

O'Malley, William

Valentia, Viscount

Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham

O'Mara, James

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid).

Lundon, W.

O'Shee, James John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart.

M'Iver, SirLewis(EdinburghW.

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

M'Kean, John

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Young, Samuel

Magnus, Sir Philip

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Younger, George

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Remnant, James Farquharson

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Francis Powell and Mr. Cave.

Meagher, Michael

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

Roche, John (Galway, East)

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Adkins, W. Ryland

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Dunne, Maj. E. Martin (Walsall

Agnow, George William

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Alden, Percy

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Elibank, Master of

Armitage, R.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Byles, William Pollard

Erskine, David C.

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Cameron, Robert

Essex, R. W.

Astbury, John Meir

Garr-Gomm, H. W.

Everett, R. Lacey

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Fen wick, Charles

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. B. R.

Ferens, T. R.

Barker, John

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Barnard, E. B.

Cleland, J. W.

Fowler, Rt. Hon, Sir Henry

Beak, W. P.

Clough, W.

Fullerton, Hugh

Beauchamp, E.

Clynes, J. R.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

Gill, A. H.

Beck, A. Cecil

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

Bell, Richard

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Glendinning, R. G.

Bellairs, Carlyon

Collins, SirWmJ. (S. PancrasW

Gooch, George Peabody

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Copper, G. J.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Bennett, E. N.

Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, EGrinst'd

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Bertram, Julius

Cory, Clifford John

Griffith, Ellis J.

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Grove, Archibald

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Cowan, W. H.

Gull and, John W.

Billson, Alfred

Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Cremer, William Randal

Hall, Frederick

Black, Alexander Win. (Banff)

Crombie, John William

Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

Crossfield, A. H.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

Harmsworth, R. L.(Caithn's-ssh

Brace, William

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Hart-Davies, T.

Bramsdon, T A.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Branch, James

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Dickinson, W.H. (St. Paenras, N.

Haslam, Lewis (Honmouth)

Brodie, H. C.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Brooke, Stopford

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Brunner, J.F. L. (Lanes. Leigh)

Dobson, Thomas W.

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Brunner, Sir J. T. (Cheshire)

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Henry, Charles S.

570

571

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.

Mond, A.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Morley, L.G. Chiozza

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Higham, John Sharp

Montagu, E. S.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Hobhouse, Charles E. H

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Soares, Ernest J.

Hodge, John

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Spicer, Sir Albert

Holland, Sir William Henry

Morrell, Philip

Stanger, H. Y.

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Morse, L. L.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh)

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Murray, James

Strachey, Sir Edward

Horniman, Emslie John

Myer, Horatio

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Napier, T. B.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Hudson, Walter

Nicholls, George

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Hyde, Clarendon

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

Summerbell. T.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norman, Henry

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Jackson, R. S.

Nuttall, Harry

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe))

Jacoby, James Alfred

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Jardine, Sir J.

O'Grady, J.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Jenkins, J.

Paul, Herbert

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Paulton, James Mellor

Thomasson, Franklin

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Thorne, William

Jowett, F. W.

Perks, Robert William

Tomkinson, James

Kearley, Huason E.

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Kekewich, Sir George

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Toulmin, George

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central

Ure, Alexander

Laidlaw. Robert

Price, Robert John (NorfolkE.

Verney, F. W.

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

Priestley, W. E.B. (Bradford, E.

Vivian, Henry

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Radford, G. H.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Lambert, George

Rainy, A. Rolland

Wallace, Robert

Lamont, Norman

Raphael, Herbert H.

Walton, Sir J. L. (Leeds, S.)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Rees, J. D.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.

Rendall, Athelstan

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

Renton, Major Leslie

Wardle, George J.

Lehmann, R. C.

Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Levy, Maurice

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Lewis, John Herbert

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

Waterlow, D. S.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Robertson, SirGScott(Bradf'rd

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Lough, Thomas

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneskle)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Lupton, Arnold

Robinson, S.

Whitehead, Rowland

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Roe, Sir Thomas

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Wiles, Thomas

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Rose, Charles Day

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Maclean, Donal

Rowlands, J.

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthett

Macpherson, J. T.

Runciman, Walter

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

M'Arthur, William

Russell, T. W.

Wilson, Hon. Ch. W.(Hull, W.)

M'Callum, John M.

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cloveland)

Wilson, J.H. (Middlesbrough)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

M'Laren, H. P. (Stafford, W.)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Winfrey, R.

M'Micking, Major G.

Schwann, Sir C. (Manchester)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Maddison, Frederick

Scott, A. H-(Ashton-und.-Lyne

Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd

Mallet, Charles E.

Sears, J. E.

Yoxall, James Henry

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

Seaverns, J. H.

Marnham, F. J.

Seddon, J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Massie, J.

Seely, Major J. B.

Menzies, Walter

Shackleton, David James

Micklein, Nathaniel

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Shipman Dr. John G.

LORD BALCARRESmoved to insert at the end of Sub-section 1, line 32, after " schoolhouse" the words "the contributions of the supporters of the school to the maintenance and repair of the school-house and the saving effected to public funds as regards salaries of officials and expense of administration by the volun-
572
tary service of school correspondents and other supporters of the schools." This would provide that these things should be taken into consideration in addition to the grants for assistance received from public funds towards the building or repair of the schoolhouse He brought the Amendment forward

573
by way of illustration of the matters which the Commissioners should take into account. The four sub-sections given in the clause dealt with topics which obviously and manifestly would tell against the trustees of voluntary schools. He therefore proposed that Amendment to give illustrations in an opposite sense in favour of the owners. If the right hon. Gentleman took exception to the precise words perhaps he would put in one or more illustrations to act as counterpoise to those in the clause.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 32, after the word ' school house,' to insert the words, ' and the contributions of the supporters of the school to the maintenance and repair of the schoolhouse and the saving effected of public funds, as regards salaries of officials and expenses of administration by the voluntary services of school correspondents and other supporters of the schools.' " —(Lord Balcarres.)
Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
SIR W. ROBSONthought the Amendment illustrated the advantage of not being too specific. It sought to give directions to the Commissioners, but he noticed that it omitted all reference to contributions by the supporters of the school towards the building of the school.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that could be put in.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid that, as the Amendment now stood, the Commissioners would have to take into account the giants made out of public funds towards building, but not the amounts subscribed by the personal supporters of the schools. That showed the danger of trying to go in great minuteness into these matters. The Government could not accept the Amendment.
MR. A. J. BALFOURasked why the Government saw no difficulty and no objection as to all the things that were to be taken into account under Sub-sections (i), (ii), (iii), and (iv), which told against the owners of the schools, when directly a suggestion was made
574
that there should be some balance— that suggestions should be made not for one side only, but for both, they suddenly became alive to the extraordinary danger of minuteness and precision. He did not deny that there was some force in the considerations urged by the hon. and learned Gentleman. He did not deny that there might be danger lurking in too great precision and microscopic and minute considerations in the drafting of the Bill. But if these cautious principles were thrown to the wind on the one side, let them, be thrown to the wind on the other. Let not the right hon. Gentleman resist suggestions in favour of the voluntary schools on grounds quite as valid as those urged in favour of the sub-sections and on grounds which ought to carry weight in the Committee. He did not wish to speak too strongly on the subject, because he recognised that the right hon. Gentleman had done much to meet them in this matter. But he confessed the clause as it originally stood was plainly and obviously framed in favour in every respect of the local authority and against the owners and trustees when they came before the Commission. Some not inconsiderable traces of that taint remained in the clause, and if there was an objection to the words of his noble friend some better grounds should be found for resisting the Amendment.
LORD R. CECILsaid that this was a matter in which the Committee was entitled to hear the views of the right hon. Gentleman. It was only reasonable to suggest that some directions should be given to the Commissioners to consider the wishes of the owners of the school if so many directions were given them to consider the wishes of the local authority. His noble friend had said he was quite ready to accept the words of the Government to his words were objected to, and that being so the criticism of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General of the words of the Amendment was no answer to it at all. The object was that the inquiry should not be one sided, and that was an object that he hoped the Government would carry out
Question put.

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

Fell, Arthur

Nolan, Joseph

Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSir Al x F.

Field, William

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

Ambrose, Robert

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Connor. James(Wicklow, W.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Fletcher, J. S.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn HughO

Forster, Henry William

O'Grady, J.

Ashley, W. W.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Hare, Patrick

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon Sir H.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Balcarres, Lord

Ginnell, L.

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

Balfour, RtHn. A. J. (City Lond)

Haddock, George R.

O'Malley, William

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Halpin, J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

O'Shee, James John

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Parker, Sir (Gilbert (Gravesend)

Beach, Hn. MichaelHughHicks

Hayden, John Patrick

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hazelton, Richard

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Blake, Edward

Helmsley, Viscount

Power, Patrick Joseph

Boland, John

Hervey ,F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hills, J. W.

Redmond. William (Clare)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hogan, Michael

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bull, Sir William James

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Roche, John (Galway. East)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Burke, E. Haviland

Hunt, Rowland

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Kennaway. Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

Smith, Abel K. (Hertford, East)

Cave, George

Keswick, William

Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton)

Oavendish. Rt. Hn. VictorC. W.

Kilbride, Denis

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Cheshire

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone. E.)

Law, Andrew Bonar.(Dulwich)

Sullivan, Donal

Clancy, John Joseph

Lee, Arthur H(Hants. Fareham

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Liddell, Henry

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(OxfdUniv.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lundon, W.

Thornton, Percy M.

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Turnour, Viscount

Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim, S

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Valentia, Viscount

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Macpherson, J. T.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Craik, Sir Henry

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down. S.

Warde, Col, C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Crean, Eugene .

M'Iver. SirLewis(EdinburghW

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Cullinan, J

M'Kean, John

Wilson, A. Stanley (Vork. E.R.)

Delany, William

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wolf, Gustav Wilhelm

Devlin, CharlesRamsay (Galw'y

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wortley. Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon.

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Meagher, Michael

Young, Samuel

Donelan, Captain A.

Middlemore, Jhn. Throgmorton

Younger, George

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Du Cros, Harvev

Mooney, J. J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Samuel Roberts and Mr. Rawlinson.

Duffy, William J.

Murphy, John

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nield, Herbert

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Barker, John

Bertram. Julius

Agnew, George William

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Barnard, E. B.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Alden, Percy

Beale, W. P.

Billson, Alfred

Allen. A. Acland (Christchureh)

Beauchamp, E.

Biirell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Armitage, R.

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)

Aehton, Thomas Gair

Beck, A. Cecil

Black. Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

Asquith, RtHonHerbertHenry

Bell, Richard

Bolton. T. D. (Derbyshire. N.E.)

Astbury, John Meir

Bellairs, Carlyon

Boultou. A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Benn, W. (T'w'r H'mlets. S. Geo.

Brace, William

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Bennett, E. N.

Bramsdon, T. A.

The Committee divided:—Aves, 151; Noes, 310. (Division List No. 196.)

Branch, James

Griffith, Ellis J.

Marnham, F. J.

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Grove, Archibald

Massie, J.

Brodie, H. C.

Gulland, John W.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Brooke, Stopford

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Menzies, Walter

Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Hall, Frederick

Micklem, Nathaniel

Brunner.Sir John T. (Cheshire)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Molteno, Percy Alport

Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mond, A

Bryce, J.A.(InvernessBurghs)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Buchanan, Thomas, Ryburu

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

Montagu, E. S.

Buckmaster, Stanley 0.

Hart-Davies, T.

Montgomery, H. G.

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)*

Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Byles, William Pollard

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Morrell, Philip

Cameron, Robert

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Morse, L. L.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Henry, Charles S.

Murray, James

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

Myer, Horatio

Cheetham, John Frederick

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Napier, T. B.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Higham, John Sharp

Nicholls, George

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hobart, Sir Robert

Nicholson, CharlesN(Doncaster

Clarke, C. Goddard

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Norman, Henry

Cleland, J. W.

Hodge, John

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Clough, W.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Nuttall, Harry

Clynes. J. R.

Hope, John Dcans (Fife, West)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth;

Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Paul, Herbert

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Horniraan, Emslie John

Paulton, James Mellor

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Collins, Sir W m J(S. Pancras, W

Hudson, Walter

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Corbett, CH(Sussex, G. Grinst'd

Hyde, Clarendon

Perks, Robert William

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n

Cory, Clifford John

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Phillips, J. Wynford(Pembroke)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Jackson, R. S.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Cowan, W. H.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

Jardine, Sir J.

Price. Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Cremer, William Randal

Jenkins, J.

Priestley, W. E. B. (BradfordE.),

Crombie, John William

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Radford, G. H.

Crosfield, A. H.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Raphael, Herbert H.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Jowett, F. W.

Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro'

Davies, M. Vanghan- (Cardigan)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rees, J. D.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Kekewich, Sir George

Rendall, Athelstan

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol. S.)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Renton, Major Leslie

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancas, N.

Laidlaw, Robert

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.,

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lambert, George

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

Duncan, J.H. (York, Otley)

Lamont, Norman

Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Dunne, MajorE. Martin(Walsall

Lea, HughCecil (St. Pancras. E.)

Robinson, S.

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lehmann, R. C.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Elibank, Master of

Levy, Maurice

Rose, Charles Day

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lewis, John Herbert

Rowlands, J.

Erskine, David C.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Runciman, Walter

Essex, R. W.

Lough, Thomas

Russell, T. W.

Everett, R. Lacey

Lupton, Arnold

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Scarisbriek, T. T. L.

Fenwick, Charles

Lyell, Charles Henry

Schwann, C. Dunean (Hyde)

Ferens, T. R.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir Walter

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Sears, J. E.

Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

Maclean, Donald

Seaverns, J. H.

Fullerton, Hugh

M'Arthur, William

Seddon, J.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Callum, John M.

Seely, Major J. B.

Gill, A. H.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Shackleton, David James

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford

Glendinning, R. G.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W-)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Micking, Major G.

Silcock. Thomas Ball

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Maddison, Frederick

Simon, John Allsebrook

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Mallet, Charles E.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Toulmin, George

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Soares, Ernest J.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wiles, Thomas

Spicer, Sir Albert

Ure, Alexander

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Stanger, H. Y.

Verney, F. W.

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

Strachey, Sir Edward

Vivian, Henry

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Wilson, Hon. C. H. W.(Hull, W.)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wallace, Robert

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Summer bell, T.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Winfrey, R.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Wardle, George J.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Hudd'rsfi'd

Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Yoxall, James Henry

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Waterlow, D. S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Thomasson, Franklin

Whitbread, Howard

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Thorne, William

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Tomkinson, James

Whitehead, Rowland

MR. ASHLEYmoved to omit sub-paragraph (ii). He said he objected to all four sub-paragraphs, but especially to sub-paragraph (ii), because he thought it was grossly misleading and unfair. Why should they direct the Commission to take into account the limited nature of the user of the school by the local education authority, when they were not to be asked to take into account the limited nature of the user by the trustees? It was well known that if this Bill were passed the local education authority would be able by structural alterations so to alter the schoolhouse as to make it perfectly useless for any other purposes than that of a public elementary school. He had in his mind the schools of Christ Church, Hoxton. He understood these schools were held under trust which allowed of their use both as a public elementary school and as a gymnasium and for other purposes. The London County Council had intimated that they must have the schoolroom divided into classrooms in order that the elementary school might be carried on. He did not quarrel with that, but the trustees of the school had said they would not allow a public elementary school to be carried on there after the end of the term, because the use of the school for other purposes would be put an end to. As the law stood at the present moment the trustees had the power if they liked to safeguard the other uses of the school, but if this clause were passed they would have no control,
580
and the local education authority would be able to put up partitions or fix seats in the schoolroom in a way that would prevent its use for other purposes.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 5, line 33, to leave out subparagraph (ii)"—(Mr. Ashley.)
Question proposed, " That the word ' the ' stand part of the clause."
MR. BIRRELLthought that some of the criticism of the hon. Gentleman approached what might be called without offence hypercriticism. There might be two opinions as to the necessity of the sub-paragraph. As the Commissioners were men of the utmost intelligence, integrity, and experience, the first thing that they would have before their minds would be that all that was required was that the local authority should obtain just that use of the premises for the purposes of a public elementary school—which was already going on, because one had always to bear in mind that they were now dealing with existing voluntary schools. Therefore they had not to consider the question of other uses to which the school was being put at other times than school hours. All that they had to consider was whether it was possible to continue the public elementary school on the premises during school hours. Although he would not mind one atom if these words were struck out, because they were of the very essence of the contract before the parties, namely, the acquisition of these premises

581
for a very limited purpose, still he thought that, after all, these things had an educational influence in that they showed that they were not trying to drive people out of their own premises and destroying trusts extraneous to those of a public elementary school. It was useful that people should get it well into their heads that all that this Star Chamber—as it was once called, but which was now regarded as a perfectly safe and sound body—had to do was to consider whether the school should continue as a public elementary school during school hours on five days a week. That being so, he could not see what was the use of occupying the time of the Committee when there were so many more important things to be considered. The words proposed to be left out were as harmless as any that ever found their way into an Act of Parliament.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Committee could not forget the Solicitor-General's speech of a few moments ago. The right hon. Gentleman with admirable ingenuity had discovered an argument that had escaped the acute eye of the
Solicitor-General, and having nothing better to say in defence of this subsection it occurred to him that, however useless it might be from other points of view, it had a very great educational influence. He now understood for the first time what the right hon. Gentleman meant when he said on the First Reaching that this Bill had an educational side. He had discovered that it came in in sub-paragraph (ii.)of Clause 8. He was ready to accept all the educational value that; was derived from this sub-paragraph, if it was made educational not entirely in one direction, but leaving the mind of the educated person in that well-balanced state which was the sign of true wisdom. He therefore suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should either accept his hon. friend's Amendment, or make a more symmetrical arrangement than the subsection now presented.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Aves, 319; Noes, 149. (Division List No. 197.)

Ferens, T. R.

Levy, Maurice

Roe, Sir Thomas

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Lewis, John Herbert

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Rose, Charles Day

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lough, Thomas

Row lands, J.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Luptou, Arnold

Runciman, Walter

Fuller, John Michael F.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Russell, T. W.

Fullerton, Hugh

Lyell, Charles Henry

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Gill, A. H.

Macdonald, J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn HerbertJohn

Mackaraess, Frederic C.

Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester)

Glendinning, R. G.

Maclean, Donald

Scott, A. H. (Asliton under Lyne

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Arthur, William

Sears, J. E.

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Callum, John M.

Seaverns, J. H

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Crae, George

Seddon, J.

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Seely, Major J. B.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Shackleton, David James

Griffith, Ellis J.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Grove, Archibald

M'Micking, Major G.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Gulland, John W.

Maddison, Frederick

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Mallet, Charles E.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Hall, Frederick

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Marnham, F. J.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Massie, J.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcs'r

Masterman, C. F. G.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Harmsworth, R.L (Caithn'ss-sh

Menzies, Walter

Soares, Ernest J.

Hart-Davies, T.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Spicer, Sir Albert

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Mond, A.

Stanger, H. Y.

Harwood, George

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Montagu, E. S.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Montgomery, H- H.

Strachev, Sir Edward

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Henry, Charles S.

Morrell, Philip

Summerbell, T.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.)

Morse, L. L.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Murray, James

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Higham, John Sharp

Myer, Horatio

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Napier, T. B.

Tennant, SirEdward (Salisbury)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Nicholls, George

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Hodge, John

Nicholson, Charles N(Doncast'r

Thomas, SirA.(Glamorgan, E.)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Norman, Henry

Thomasson, Franklin

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Thompson. J. W. H. Somerset. E-

Hope, W. Bateman(Soinerset, N.

Nuttall, Harry

Thorne, William

Horninian, Emslie John

Paul, Herbert

Tomkinson, James

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Paulton, James Mellor

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Hudson, Walter

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Toulmin, George

Hyde, Clarendon

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Illingworth, Percy H.

Perks, Robert William

Ure, Alexander

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton

Verney, F. W.

Jackson, R. S.

Philipps, J. Wynfordf Pembroke

Vivian, Henry

Jacoby, James Alfred

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Walker, H. De R, (Leicester)

Jardine, Sir J.

Pickcrsgill, Edward Hare

Wallace, Robert

Jenkins, J.

Price, C. E.(Edinb'gh,Central) .

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Price, Robert John(Norfolk,E

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Priestlev, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

Radford, G. H.

Wardle, George J.

Jowett, F. W.

Rainy, A. Holland

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Raphael, Herbert H.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Kekewich, Sir George

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Rees, J. D.

Waterlow, D. S.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Rendall, Athelstan

Whitbread, Howard

Laidlaw, Robert

Renton, Major Leslie

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Whitehead, Rowland

Lambert, George

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Lamont, Norman

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Layland-Barratt,Francis

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

Wiles, Thomas

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E.)

Robertson, SirG. Scott (Bradf'd

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Leese, SirJoseph F. (Accrington

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

Lehmann, R. C.

Robinson, S.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Lever, W. H (Cheshire.Wirral)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull, W.).

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras. S.)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Huddersf'd

Winfrey, R. V

Yoxall, James Henry

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E)

Fineh, Rt. Hon. George H.

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary .Mid)

Acland-Hood, Rt, HnSirAlexF.

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Ambrose, Robert

Fletcher, J. S.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W.)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Anstrntlier-Gray, Major

Forster, Henry William

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gardner. Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Hare, Patrick

Arnold -Forater, Rt. Hn HughO.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Aubrey- Fletcher, Rt. Hon.SirH

Ginnell. L.

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

Balcarres, Lord

HaddocK, George R.

O'Malley, William

Balfour, RtHnA. J.(City Lond.

Halpin, J

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

O'Shee, James John

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Parker, Sir Gilbert(Gravesend

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Hayden;, John Patrick

Pease, HerbertPike,(Darlington

Beach, Hn. MichaelHughHicks

Hazletoh, Richard

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Helmslejy, Viscount

Power, Patrick Joseph

Blake, Edward

Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds

Rasche, Sir Frederie Carne

Boland, John

Hill, Sir Glement (Shrewsbury)

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hogan, Michael

Redmond. John E. (Waterford)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Redmond, William (Clare)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Houston, Robert Paterson

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bull. Sir William James

Hunt, Rowland

Roberts, S. (Sheffield. Eeclesall

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Kennaway. Rt. Hn. SirJohnH.

Roche, John (Galway. East)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Kennedy. Vincent Paul

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Kenyon-Slanney. Rt. Hn. Col. W.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H-

Keswick, William

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cave, George

Kilbride, Denis

Scott, SirS. (Marylebone. W.)

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W-

Lambton, Hon Frederick Win.

Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smith, F. E.(Liverpool. Walton)

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham

Starkey, John R.

Clancy, John Joseph

Liddell, Henry

Sullivan. Donal

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R.

Talbot. RtHn. J. G.(0xfdUniv.)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

Condon. Thomas Joseph

Lundon, W.

Thornton, Percy M.

Courthope. G. Loyd

Lytteiton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Turnour, Viscount

Graig, CharlesCurtis'Antrim. S

Macpherson. J. T'

Valentia, Viscount

Craig, Capt. James (H)own, E.)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Crean, Eugene

M'l ver, SirL(EdinburghW.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Cullinan, J.

M'Kean, John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Delany, William

M'Kiliop, W.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway

Magnus, Sir Philip

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wilson; A. Stanley(York. E.R.)

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Mason,, James F. (Windsor)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Donelan, Captain A.

Meagher, Michael

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Du Cros, Harvey

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Young, Samuel

Duffy, William J.

Mooney, J. J.

Younger, George

Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan

Murphy, John

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Ashley and Mr. Curlile.

Fell, Arthur

Meld, Herbert

Field, William

Nolan, Joseph

MR. LAURENCE HARDYmoved to omit the word "limited " from the subsection. The Government had again and again admitted that they only wanted to give general directions to the Commissioners as to what they had to consider, and that they did not want the directions to be of a one-sided character. In that case they should not insert a .word which must have an injurious
586
effect on one of the parties. His Amendment really carried out the expressed intentions of the Government.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 33, to leave out the word 'limited.'"—(Mr. Laurence Hardy.)
Question proposed, " That the word ' limited ' stand part of the clause."
MR. BIRRELLsaid a limited user was the only user that was required, as the local authority would not be acquiring the complete freehold of the property of a school. He did not ask the Committee to admire the sub-section, but what possible object would be obtained by striking out the word "limited" he could not for the life of him understand.
LORD R. CECILsaid it was a perfectly rational Amendment. It would greatly improve the drafting of this Bill, if nothing else. But it did more than that. The sub-section as it stood directed the attention of the Commissioners to only one aspect of the transaction. There was nothing to prevent the Commissioners under this clause providing a scheme for handing the whole thing over to the local education authority if they arrived at the conclusion that on the whole that would be the best business transaction for both sides.
MR. CARLILEhoped the Government would withdraw this word from the sub-section, because really to all intents and purposes these schools were monopolised by the proposals of the Government. Who could describe the occupation of these schools by the local education authority as a limited use? It was outrageous. The word would convey a totally wrong impression, to the Commissioners, and would lead them astray. In the case of the Star Chamber there was some sort of appeal to the will of the Sovereign, but in this case there was no appeal, so that the Commission would be ten times worse than any Star Chamber.
MR. LAURENCE HARDYasked leave to withdraw the Amendment, though he certainly thought it exactly carried out the intention of the right hon. Gentleman.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Ms. LANE-FOXmoved to omit sub-paragraph (iii), which provided that the Commissioners, in considering the payment to be made for the use of the school
588
house, should have regard to " the facilities given therein for special religious instruction and the performance of the original trusts." He thought that involved an act of very great meanness indeed. He ventured to think that nothing more Jewish was contained in the wholes length of the Bill. [Cries of " Oh !"] He meant nothing offensive to any Gentleman present. He thought the provision a most mean and sordid one. The owners of the voluntary schools had been., trying to get the facilities which the Government had given with a very grudging hand; they had got infinitely less than they had a right to expect, and now they found that under this sub-section even these facilities were to be reckoned up in pounds shillings and pence against them It was obvious that that would be the effect of the sub-section. After the appeal made to the Committee not to increase the number of details to be put before the Commissioners, he thought they might fairly urge that this detail should not be put before them. They might fairly claim that this should be left to the Commissioners themselves. He appealed to the Minister for Education to consider whether the miserable right of two half hours a week in the schools for religious instruction should be reckoned up as part of a financial bargain.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 35, to leave out sub-paragraph (iii)."—(Mr. Lane-Fox.)
Question proposed, " That the word " the " stand part of the clause."
MR. BIRRELLsaid he was surprised that the hon. Gentleman should use such strong language. The fact that facilities were given went to the fulfilment of the trust. Surely the fact that the facilities were given was of the essence of the case. It was all very well for the hon. Gentleman to talk of this "miserable half hour." but it was, as a rule, the time which had hitherto been given to catechetical and formulary instruction, and to speak of it thus was both to underrate its value and the capacity of the children to stand more. The Commissioners might very fairly take into consideration the facilities given when estimating the rent. Hon.

589
Gentlemen seemed rather to suppose that these provisions put some burden on the directing wills of the Commissioners; they did not do anything of the sort, they simply called their attention to particular matters which they might take into their consideration.
MR. RAWLINSONsaid the Amendment raised a very important principle. The local educational authority, when considering the amount of compensation they were entitled to give to the owners, would look to these sub-paragraphs as being the basis on which the Commissioners would have to decide. The only test that ought to be applied was the market value of the user of the building which the local authority proposed to take over for a certain number of hours in the week. If more money would have to be paid in cases where facilities for religious instruction were given it would give a tremendous leverage to any agnostic element on the local authority. The local authority would be able to say to the owners that they would not give more than £25 if religious facilities were insisted upon, but that they would give £50 if the owners said nothing about religious facilities at all. There should be no higgling of the market in that way.
SIR E. CARSONasked whether the facilities in question were those in Clause 4 as well as those in Clause 3. If that was so, he supposed that there would necessarily be a different standard of conditions as to payment in the event of the facilities being given under Clause 4 instead of Clause 3.
MR. PERKSsaid the sub-paragraph which was proposed to be left out had a material bearing on Sections 3 and 4. He had been going to raise the same point as that to which the hon. and learned Gentleman's question referred. He entirely accepted the view of the Minister for Education that the facilities given for religious instruction were one of the main features which an arbitrator would necessarily take into consideration. A reference to the trust deeds would show that the main object for which the schools were built was to bring up children in, say, the
590
tenets of the Church of England. It was admitted that this was not a money question at all. What was sought to be provided for was the future religious welfare of the children and, therefore, if that had already been provided for, and they came before the Commissioners, who he believed were all members of the Church of England, they would at once say, " This is one of the most material considerations for us to take into account." He asked the Minister for Education whether this sub-section applied as to ordinary facilities schools where on two mornings of the week denominational religious instruction would be given, or to schools under Clause 4 where extended facilities for special religious instruction were given on five mornings in the week. Clause 8 did not come into operation a all where there had been inability to agree. Was the Commission, to say at the outset of the arbitration, " What do you intend your school to be? Is it to be under Clause 3, because that would determine our judgment? " He wanted to know from the Minister for Education whether the provision for the Commission in making their inquiry did really apply to schools under Clause 4, which enjoyed extended facilities for special religious instruction. [Cries of " No."] Somebody said " No," but he wanted the Minister for Education to tell him that. Further, he wanted to know what would happen in the case of village schools where there had been no agreement, and where alone this section would operate.
MR. BIRRELLsaid he should have thought that by this time the thing was pretty plain. The Commissioners were to be concerned only with the duty of declaring and of seeing to the fulfilment, so far as they could, of the condition of trusts under which schools were held. The question of trusts did not apply at all to Clause 4. These schools were frankly denominational, and in regard to them what was to be ascertained was the wishes of the parents, with an appeal to the Board of Education under the amended Clause 4, so that they were beyond the purview of the Commission altogether. Then there was a question as to whether or not the schools under trust

591
had been transferred to the local education authority. His hon. friend the Member for Cambridge University seemed to think that they would get rid of the facilities by offering to pay a higher rent; but he was quite certain that they would not be able to transfer any school against the wishes of the owner unless the facilities were given, and that these were sufficiently good to carry out the conditions of trust. The two positions were perfectly and entirely distinct.
MR. LAURENCE HARDYsaid he should like to urge the unfairness, if the Commissioners were to take into consideration in fixing the rent these extended facilities, that under Clause 3 no part of the living should be paid by the local education authority. They first made the owners pay for the advantage of the special facilities granted under Clause 3; and then under Clause 8 they fined them for having received them. That seemed to him an unfair method, for by the Bill the Government acknowledged the absolute right of demand. The only result was that the owners of schools were to be fined doubly for the granting of the facilities. The impression they had always had up to now was that religious instruction of a special character which was to be given was to be confined to Clause 3. It might be said in connection with the new Amendment, that the Bill dealt with many other considerations under Clause 4, which would come under the purview of the Commission. He confessed he understood that this Commission had nothing to do with the question of facilities at all. The facilities were not granted by the Commission, but by the scheme. He was very glad his hon. friend had moved the omission of the words, for he thought that an extreme, injustice would be inflicted when the school owners had to pay for those facilities and then to pay for them over again.
MR. BUTCHERsaid there were strong reasons for omitting this sub-paragraph. He called the attention of the Committee to the words of sub-section (6); the Commission may by the scheme make provision for the purpose of giving effect to the trust "subject to such conditions (if any) as to
592
payment, or other matters —where " other matters " must include " facilities " for special religious instruction, as these would be among the essential conditions of the bargain—and the clause then runs on, " having regard to ‥‥the facilities given " in the schoolhouse " for special religious instruction." Clearly there was a want of logical coherence in the drafting, nor was it possible to say what the effect of such words would be. Apart, however, from the form, the intention of sub-paragraph (iii) obviously was, as the Commission think just, that the rent of the schoolhouse should be, or might be reduced on the score that facilities were given for special religious instruction. He assumed that the local education authority would have already got the use of the school to the full extent they desired for the purpose of giving the particular form of religious instruction they required. Was it reasonable, then, because another form of religious teaching was being given in another room at the same hour, that the rent for the school should be diminished as if the rights of the local authority were thereby curtailed?
MR. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, E.)said it appeared to him that these words meant that the rent was to be reduced in schools where special facilities were given for religious education. There was a general feeling abroad that the object of all these provisions was to discourage parents from declaring in favour of facilities being given for religious teaching, because these facilities would mean the loss of a certain amount of money. He did not know whether this proposal would apply to schools coming under Section 4. He presumed under the new Amendment it would not. But a great number of schools would in any case be excluded from the operation of Clause 4, as the Minister for Education knew, through a variety of reasons, and they would be affected by these words. It seemed to him, looking at the matter in a plain way, that the sum total of this provision was that in schools where facilities were given for teaching of a particular class, a certain amount of rent would be withheld simply because those facilities were given. He thought that

593
would be unfair. It would not be in order for him to discuss upon this clause considerations applying to Clause 4, but he did say that the proposal to deprive schools of a certain amount of rent because they had declared in favour of facilities did not seem right or just. He assured the right hon. Gentleman that these words did bear the construction that it was intended to discourage schools from applying for special facilities. Surely the Commissioners, who were gentlemen of great position and commanded universal respect, might be left to settle the matter without hard and fast instructions of this kind.
MR. BIRRELLsaid he was always desirous of keeping the loyal support of the hon. Gentleman, whose fairness he recognised, but he would point out to him that if the Government had not made arrangements in the Bill the, Commissioners would not in such cases I have been able to allow any rent at all. The Commissioners would have said to the trustees—" You must transfer your-self to the local authority on the terms of getting your catechetical and dogmatic instruction twice a week. That is the only way in which you can perform your trust. Therefore you have got to do it." Therefore the Commissioners would not have provided any rent if' this iniquitous Government had not come to t he assistance of the trustees by allowing the Commissioners to do that which the Court of Chancery could not have done — namely, give them a rent. But surely in considering what that rent should be it was not unreasonable that the Commissioners should be allowed to take into account the fact that the school was fulfilling a trust, that religious facilities would be given, and that the children would continue to be instructed in the principles of the denomination, in accordance with the provisions of the trust.
MR. LEIF JONESwished to know how this provision would affect the schools in which four-fifths of the parents of the children desired facilities. Under Clause 4 the local authority might take over the four-fifths schools or they might refuse to do so. It was
594
true there was an appeal to the Board of Education, but supposing the trustee did not appeal to the Board of Education, was it in the power of the local education authority to take the trustees of that school before the Commissioners and ask them to draw up a scheme? And in that event, could the facilities granted be facilities as under Clause 4?
MR. BIRRELL: If the four-fifths arrangement broke down, it would be in the power of the local authority to take the school before the Commissioners and then the only facilities given would be under Clause 3.
SIR E. CARSONhoped that the right hon. Gentleman would further consider this matter. He could not see in this clause any provision except that facilities were to be given " in accordance with the provisions of the Act" and he could not see that there could be anything in " accordance with the provisions of the Act" except in regard to four-fifths schools. Why were the facilities therefore limited to Clause 3? Clause 3, moreover, only applied to cases where the local education authority had agreed to take over the school and that case also was covered by the words " in accordance with the provisions of this Act." He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the matter should be set right and needed further consideration.
MR. BIRRELLsaid lie was always perfectly ready to consider a point. He was told that this provision was perfectly right, but he would look into it.
LORD R. CECILsaid he really did not understand how the clause would work. It was said that the Commissioners were to have regard to the facilities given, but facilities were not given to the school at all unless they were given by the Commissioners themselves. He could not understand how they were to have regard to facilities given by themselves. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that this clause did not apply in some cases to schools coming under

595
Clause 4, but he could not understand how that could be, because under Clause 4 there were two alternative methods of procedure. The original procedure before the Amendment of the right hon Gentleman was that the school should be transferred, and that then, quite independently of the transfer, an application should be made under Clause 4 for facilities. But they had nothing to do with the transfer as the Bill was originally drafted. He agreed that it was suggested that the facilities should form part of the arrangement under this section, but under Clause 4, as originally framed, they were not part of the arrangement. Supposing in a school which would eventually turn out to be a Clause 4 school, negotiations had been entered into for a transfer but had broken down and the local education authority then came to the Commissioners and said, "We want this school." The Commissioners would then have to deal with the matter, and what they wanted was to settle the method of the transfer and how the facilities were to be settled, because no application for facilities, which was to be made by the parents, would have been made up to that point. How were the Commissioners to consider the facilities given in such a case? It was a matter which might not affect the rent, but which might affect many conditions under which the school would be transferred. The fact was that this sub-section I was an extremely difficult one and he did not think the right hon. Gentleman had even now appreciated the difficulty. The animus of it was clear enough. It was to provide for a less rent than the owners would otherwise get. Taking that as the intention, was that a proper arrangement? Here were the owners who were going to make an arrangement and they wished for facilities which would operate for the benefit of the children. The Bill said that under Clause 3 in obtaining the facilities—and this was the effect of the sub-section—the trustees would get less for their school than if facilities were not asked for. In short it would be to the interests of the owners to ask for as little religion for the children as possible. He could not think that that was intended and he ventured to appeal to the Government even at this late stage to leave out the sub-section.
MR. SAMUEL ROBERTSsaid the effect of the subsection seemed to be that in certain cases schools which were transferred were to be penalised if religious instruction was granted.
MR. R. PEARCEsaid he read the clause in this way, that where there had been no agreement made under Clauses 3 or 4 and no arrangement come to at all, then Clause 8 would come into operation. Under Clause 8 the Commissioners were to consider the best mode of giving effect to trusts and frame schemes. Under this section they would consider what were the facilities to be given for religious instruction, and if it I were struck out no facilities at all would be given.
LORD BALCARRESpointed out that, with the amendment of Clause 4, the instructions given to the Commissioners, and the hint given to the local education authority, the Government practically settled that no transferred voluntary school enjoying religious facilities under Clauses 3 and 4 would receive anything in the nature of a rent. He thought that that was wrong. In order to carry on the trust school teachers would have to be found and paid by the trustees, and there could be nothing more akin to the trust than that payment should be made out of the rent to give the religious teaching for the provision of which the school had been founded.
MR. BIRRELL: I agree; that is the reason why this clause is in these words.
LORD BALCARRESsaid in that case he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the wording of the sub-section in order to remove a genuine doubt as to the meaning of the words. There was one other point. If religious instruction had to be given out of school hours, why penalise the owners and trustees for using that particular hour of the day over which the local education authority had no control? Such a restriction was unjust and indefensible, and that fact alone was sufficient to justify the right hon. Gentleman in reconsidering the whole question.
MR. HARWOODtrusted the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the wording of this clause, because there seemed to be at present two separate and distinct views of what it really meant. He thought it should be made clear, because no one reading it would come to any other conclusion than that it was a penalising clause, although the right hon. Gentleman denied that that was so.
SIR PHILIP MAGNUSalso expressed a hope that the right hon. Gentleman would reconstruct this clause. The Minister for Education had told them that the Commissioners would take into consideration the matters referred to in the sub-paragraph in assessing the rents of these schools under sub-section (b). He took that view and thought the clause was wholly unnecessary and might be left out. Sub-paragraph (ii), however, was of a different character altogether. If subparagraph (iii) had not been put in the Commissioners would not have directed their consideration to the religious facilities provided, in determining the rent to be paid for the schools. But he rose to call attention to a matter of great unfairness that this clause embodied. It was suggested when they were considering sub-paragraph (iii) that there was no necessity to include the word "limited," and the omission of that word had been proposed. He certainly thought if the word " limited'' was put into sub-paragraph (ii), it ought to be put into sub-paragraph (iii), because it must be admitted that the facilities for religious instruction under this sub-paragraph were of a much more limited character than they would have been if the school were held upon the trust. He therefore hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider these sub-sections so as to see whether they could not be left out altogether, or whether at least, the word " limited " could not be inserted in sub-paragraph (iii), so that the Commissioners should recognise the fact in assessing the rent to be paid that the facilities given

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Astbury, John Men

Adkins, W. Ryland

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurbn)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Agnew, Georage William

Armitage. K.

Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.)

under this clause for religious instruction were of a very limited character.
MR. CARLILEwished to say a word or two in reply to the objection raised by the hon. Member for Stoke, who said that this was merely a question of money. If the hon. Member wanted to arouse the strongest and deepest feelings of hon.Members amongst whom he had the privilege of sitting he could not have made an interjection more calculated to arouse that feeling. Their opposition was not a question of money, but one of principle. He hoped the President of the Board of Education would see his way to insert words in this clause drawing the special attention of the three Commissioners to the fact that the so-called facilities under Clauses 3 and 4 were very largely hollow shams which did not give what they proposed to give and what the right hon. Gentleman doubtless thought they gave. As a matter of fact they robbed them of the right of ensuring that the children should be taught by people who believed in the religious instruction they had to impart. The facilities did not include what ought to be included and therefore this sub-paragraph ought to come out. He thought instructions should be given to the Commissioners that they should not allow these hollow shams to be referred —
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I have given the hon. Member a good deal of latitude thinking he was finishing his speech. He must confine himself to the Amendment.
MR. CARLILEsaid reference had been made to the terms of the original trusts. With regard to the teachers it would be apparent to all of them that under this section the performance of the original trusts not only would not be carried out but they never could be carried out under this iniquitous Bill.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 256; Noes, 106. (Division List No 198.)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Essex, R, W.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Barker, John

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Micking, Major G.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Maddison, Frederick

Barnard, E. B.

Fenwick, Charles

Mallet, Charles E.

Barnes, G. N.

Ferens, T. R.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Beauchamp, E.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Marnham, F. J.

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Massie, J.

Beck, A. Cecil

Fullerton, Hugh

Micklem, Nathaniel

Bell, Richard

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford ,S.

Mond, A.

Bellairs, Carlyon

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Money, L. G. Chiozza-

Benn, W.(Tw'rHamlets, St. Geo.

Gill, A. H.

Montagu, E. S.

Bennett, E. N.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Montgomery. G. H.

Berridge, T. H. D.

Glendinning, R. G.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morgan,J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Gooch, George Peabody

Morse, L. L.

Billson, Alfred

Grant, Corrie

Murray, James

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Myer, Horatio

Black, Alexander Wm.(Banff)

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Napier, T. B.

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Nicholls, George

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire,N.E.

Grove, Archibald

Nicholson, CharlesN.(Done'str.)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Gulland, John W.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Brace, William

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Nuttall, Harry

Bramsdon, T. A.

Hall, Frederick

Paul, Herbert

Branch, James

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Brigg, John

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Brodie, H. C.

Hart-Davies, T.

Pearson, W. H.M.(Suflolk, Eye

Brooke, Stopford

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Perks, Robert William

Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

Brunner, Sir J. T. (Cheshire)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Pollard, Dr.

Bryee, J. A.(Inverness Burghs)

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Price, Robert John.(Norfolk, E.

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.

Priestley, W. E.B. (Bradford, E.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Henry, Charles S.

Radford G. H.

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon. S-)

Rainy, A. Holland

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Higham, John Sharp

Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')

Byles, William Pollard

Hodge, John

Rees, J. D.

Cameron, Robert

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Rendall, Athelstan

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hope, W. Batenmn(SomersetN.

Renton, Major Leslie

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Horniman, Emslie John

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hyde, Clarendon

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R,

Illingvvorth, Percy H.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Jackson, R. S.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Cleland, J. W.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradford

Clough, W,

Jardine, Sir J.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Clynes, J. R.

Jenkirs, J.

Robinson, S.

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew.W.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Cobbold, Fchx Thornley

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Collins, Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W

Jowett, F. W.

Rowlands, J.

Corbett, CH(Sussex, E.Grinst'd)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Runciman, Walter

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Kekewich, Sir George

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Cory, Clifford John

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Laidlaw, Robert

Schwann, SirC. E. (Manchester

Cowan, W. H.

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Scott, A.H. (AshtonunderLyne)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Sears, J. E.

Cremer, William Randal

Lambert, George

Seaverns, J. H.

Crosfleld, A. H.

Lamont, Norman

Shackleton, David James

Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

Shipman. Dr. John G

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lehmann, R. C.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Levy, Maurice

Soares, Ernest J.

Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras, N.

Lewis, John Herbert

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lough, Thomas

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Lupton, Arnold

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Strachey, Sir Edward

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Strauss, E. A- (Abingdon)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Maclean, Donald

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Elibank, Master of

M'Callum, John M.

Summerbell, T.

Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward

M'Crae, George

600

601

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Waterlow, D. S.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset, E

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Wilson, W.T. (Westhoughton

Torrance, Sir A. M.

White, J.D. (Dumbartonshire)

Winfrev, R.

Toulmin, George

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Wodehouse, Lord(NorfolkMid)

Vivian, Henry

Whitehead, Rowland

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)

Wallace, Robert

Wiles, Thomas

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Wardle, George J.

Williams, LIewelyn(Carm'rth'n

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.)

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. SirAlex. F

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Forster, Henry William

O'Hare, Patrick

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Ashley, W. W-

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

Balcarres, Lord

Ginnell, L.

O'Malley, William

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.)

Haddock, George R.

O'Mara, James

Bertram, Julius

Halpin, J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford

O'Shee, James John

Blake, Edward

Hayden, John Patrick

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

Boland, John

Hazleton, Richard

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bowles, G. Stewart

Helmsley, Viscount

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hogan, Michael

Rawlinson, JohnFrederickPeel

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Houston, Sir Robert Paterson

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hunt, Rowland

Redmond, William (Clare)

Butcher. Samuel Henry

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnH.

Roberts, S.(Shettield, Eeclesall)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Kilbride, Denis

Seddon, J.

Cave, George

King, Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)

Sullivan, Donal

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Law, AndrewBonar (Dulwich)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

Clancy. John Joseph

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Thomson, W.Mitchell- (Lanark

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisliam)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)

Valentia, Viscount

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lundon, W.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Courthopo, G. Loyd

Macpherson, J. T.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Craik, Sir Henry

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Grean, Eugene

M'Kean, John

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Cullinan, J.

M'Killop, W.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Delany, William

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galw'y

Meagher, Michael

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Middlemore, JohnThrogmort'n

Young, Samuel

Donelan, Captain A.

Mooney, J. J.

Younger, George

Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

Murphy, John

Duffy, William J.

Nicholson, Wm. G. (PetersField)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nolan, Joseph

Evelyn Cecil and Mr. Lane-

Fell, Arthur

O' Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid

Fox.

Field, William

O' Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

MR. WYNDHAMmoved to amend the sub-section by inserting the words " limited nature of the," so that the Commissioners should be directed to have regard to " the limited nature of the facilities given therein for special religious instruction." The Minister for Education had pointed out that the use of the school by the local authority was limited, and he had inserted the word " limited " in sub-paragraph (ii) of this clause. The facilities given for religious instruction were limited also, and the words ought to be inserted because the limitations were similar in each case. The local
602
authority enjoyed the use of the schools upon certain days for certain hours, and the owners had the use of them on a fewer number of days, but there was a further limitation that they had to pay for the teacher out of their own funds, and no teacher in the school could give the instruction. The limitations in the sub-paragraph affecting these facilities were of a far more drastic character. The Minister for Education felt it necessary to insert the word " limited " when dealing with the user of the school, and why should he resist the insertion of the word in this case?
MR. BIRRELLsaid that it was perfectly clear what the facilities were, and therefore the application of any qualifying word was wholly unnecessary. He did not attach much importance to the insertion of the word " limited " in sub-paragraph (ii), and he did not think that it would be right to apply the word to the facilities in this case. The facilities given therein were in the schoolhouse, and the facilities were for special religious instruction. Those were the facilities given and contemplated by the Act. The words proposed were quite unnecessary because they knew what the facilities were, and to insert those words would be surplusage wholly unnecessary and would not convey a single idea which the Commissioners were not already fully possessed of.
MR. BLAKEthought the Amendment was utterly useless and inadequate. It was not the limited facilities they now had to consider, but the facilities. " Limited " did not appear to be either truthful or applicable in reference to its collocation.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that if the word " limited " were admissible in the first sub-paragraph it was equally applicable in the second. The limitation in the one case was intimately associated with

AYES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Fell, Arthur

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Ashley, W. W.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

Balcarres, Lord

Forster, Henry William

Rawlinson, J. Frederick Peel

Balfour, RtHnA. J.(CityLond.)

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield Ecclesall

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Bowles, G. Stewart

Haddock, George R.

Thomson, W. Mitchcll-(Lanark)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

Turnour, Viscount

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Helmsley, Viscount

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Williams, Col R. (Dorset, W.)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Houston, Robert Paterson

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Cave, George

Hunt, Rowland

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Magnus, Sir Philip

Craik, Sir Henry

Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Astbury, John Meir

Barnard, E. B.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Barnes, G. N

Adkins, W. Ryland

Baker, JosephA.(Finsbury, E.)

Beale, W. P.

Agnew, George William

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Beaucharap, E.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Barker, John

Beck. A, Cecil

Armitage, R.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford

Bell, Richard

the limitation in the other. He was astonished at the argument used by the right hon. Gentleman. He stated that the word " limited " in the previous paragraph was useless but that it was there. But how did the word get into that paragraph? It did not drop into it like flies in the amber. Its existence in the clause was not part of the order of nature. If it was there it was there because the draftsman acting under instructions put it there. Why should the word appear in one paragraph and not in the other? The facilities were as limited as the user. The voluntary schools enjoyed the full right of religious instruction. The Bill came down upon them and declared that they would lose that altogether and they only got it back in the form of a reduced right under the title of facilities out of school hours. Surely the limitation was as necessary in the one case as in the other. The less facilities there were the less would be the charge for the payment of the teacher which they would have to pay out of the rent which they got for the limited user.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 47; Noes 298. (Division List No. 199.)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Levy, Maurice

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lewis, John Herbert

Bennett, E. N.

Everett, R. Lacey

Lough, Thomas

Berridge, T. H. D.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Lundon, W.

Bertram, Julius

Fenwick, Charles

Lupton, Arnold

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

Ferens, T. R.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Field William

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Billson, Alfred

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Maclean, Donald

Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)

Flynn, James Christopher

Macpherson, J. T.

Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Mac V'eagh, Jeremiah (Down, S-

Blake, Edward

Fullerton, Hugh

M'Callum, JohnM.

Boland, John

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.

M'Crae, George

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Kean, John

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Gill, A. H.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Brace, William

Ginnell, L.

M'Killop, W.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Glendinning, R. G.

M'Micking, Major G.

Branch, James

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Maddison, Frederick

Brigg, John

Gooch, George Peabody

Mallett, Charles E.

Brodie, H. C.

Grant, Corrie

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Brooke, Stopford

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Marnham, F. J.

Brunner. J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh)

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Massie, J.

Brunner, Sir JohnT.(Cheshire)

Grove, Archibald

Meagher, Michael

Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

Gulland, John W.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Buckmaster, Stanley 0.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Mond, A.

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hall, Frederick

Montagu, E. S.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Halpin, J.

Montgomery, H. G.

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mooney, J. J.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Chas.

Hart-Davies, T.

Morse, L. L.

Byles, William Pollard

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Murphy, John

Cameron, Robert

Harwood, George

Murray, James

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Myer, Horatio

Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Napier, T. B.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hayden, John Patrick

Nicholls, George

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

Clancy, John Joseph

Hazleton, Richard

Nolan, Joseph

Clarke, C. Goddard

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Norman, Henry

Cleland, J. W.

Henderson, J.M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Clough, W.

Henry, Charles S.

Nuttall, Harry

Clynes, J. R.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon., S.)

0' Brien, Kendal (Tipporary Mid

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Collins, SirWm. J.(S. Pancras, W.

Higharu, John Sharp

O'Connor, James (VVicklow, W.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hodge, John

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E. Grinstd

Hogan, Michael

O'Hare, Patrick

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Holden, E. Hopkinson

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Cory, Clifford John

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N)

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Horniman, Emslie John

O'Malley, William

Cowan, W. H.

Hyde, Clarendon

O'Mara, James

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Illingworth, Percy H.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Crean, Eugene

Jackson, R. S.

O'Shee, James John

Cremer, William Randal

Jacoby, James Alfred

Paul, Herbert

Crosfield, A. H.

Jardine, Sir J.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Cullinan, J.

Jenkins, J.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)

Da vies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pollard, Dr.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Jowett, F. W.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Delany, William

Kekewich, Sir George

Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Price, RobertJohn(Norfolk, E.)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Kilbride, Denis

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras, N.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

Dobson, Thomas W.

King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

Radford, G. H.

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Laidlaw, Robert

Rainy, A. Holland

Donelan, Captain A.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Raphael. Herbert H.

Duffy, William J.

Lambert, George

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Lamont, Norman

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

Rees, J. D.

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

Rendall, Athelstan

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lehmann, R. C.

Ren ton, Major Leslie

Ellibank, Master of

Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'm't'n

606

607

Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire);

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Strachey, Sir Edward

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Whitehead, Rowland

Robinson, S.

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Sullivan, Donal

Wiles, Thomas

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Summerbell, T.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Rowlands, J.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Williams, Llewelyn(C'r'arth'n.

Runciman, Walter

Taylor, Theodore C (Radclifie)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E.

Wilson, P. W. (S. Pancras, S.)

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughtou)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton-und.-Lyne)

Toulmin, George

Winfrey, R.

Sears, J. E.

Vivian, Henry

Wodehouse, Lord(NorfolkMid)

Seaverns, J. H.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Shackleton, David James

Wallace, Robert

Young, Samuel

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Ward, J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Wardle, George J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

Soares, Ernest J.

Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Waterlow, D. S.

MR. BRIDGEMAN,on behalf of the noble Lord the member for East Marylebone, moved to insert the words, "Provided that, if required by the owners of the schoolhouse, any such scheme shall provide for affording facilities for religious instruction of a special character under Section 3 of this Act, and in cases satisfying the conditions of Section 4 for affording facilities under that section." The object of this was to carry out the intention of the President of the Board of Education expressed in discussion on Clause 3, when he said he would be ready to make it perfectly plain that if the local authority wanted the school and the trustees wanted facilities, then facilities there should be. As sub-paragraph (iii) stood it seemed impossible to make out the meaning of " facilities given therein," because facilities would not be given until this decision was arrived at. Unless the proposed words were inserted he really failed to see how the right hon. Gentleman could carry out the undertaking he had given.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 40, after the word ' considered,' to insert the words 'provided that, if required by the owners of the schoolhouse, any such scheme shall provide for affording facilities for religious instruction of a special character under Section 3 of this Act, and in cases satisfying the conditions of Section 4 for affording facilities under that section.' "—(Mr. Bridgeman.)
MR. BIRRELLsaid that under Clause 3 agreed facilities could be made a condition of the scheme, and a special pro-
608
vision inserted to that effect, therefore it seemed to him the matter did not remain open for consideration. Having regard to the operation of Clause 4 as amended, Clause 8 might require a little readjustment in language in reference to what was meant by facilities. He adhered to what he had already said: the four-fifths facilities being based on the wishes of parents were not the facilities contemplated within Clause 8. He did not think, having regard to the way Clause 3 stood, this question really arose.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONreminded the right hon. Gentleman that Clause 3 referred to an arrangement when facilities were to be granted, but Clause 8 rested on the supposition that the negotiations for arrangement had broken down, and the local authorities and trustees could not come to terms. The Commission would then have to take up the matter and deal with it de novo. It was really important to insert words to secure that the negotiations should be taken up by the Commission at the point where they had broken down with the; local education authority.
MR. CAVEsaid that if the facilities were refused there should be an appeal to some authority to compel them to be given; but under Clause 8 there was no such appeal, and no compulsion whatever.
MR. BIRRELLsaid that the facilities might be demanded by the owner.
MR. CAVEsaid he could not find in Clause; 8 any words which would compel the Commissioners to grant the facilities under Clause 3 if they were demanded by the owner or owners. There should be something of that kind in this clause, otherwise they would get back to the old gap. Apart from that, were they to understand that the Commissioners could not grant in their schemes the facilities provided in Clause 4?
MR. BIRRELLsaid he had stated that many times. The facilities granted in Clause 4 would not come under the purview of the Commissioners.
LORD BALCARRESsaid he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment. Its substance, it seemed to him, was perfectly sound in view of the decided pledges given to the House in answer to the right hon. Member for South Dublin.
MR. BIRRELLsaid that he had amended Clause 3.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had given a pledge to fill up this particular gap, and he thought that he should in common sequence put in this Amendment. He attached great importance to the matter, because Clause 3 facilities would be of greater moment than Clause 8 facilities. A great majority of the Church of England schools could not come in under Clause 4. Therefore, they were thrown back on Clause 3 for the facilities which the Church of England required for their work under the trust. The right hon. Gentleman could not be surprised that they should press him to make it clear that those facilities were to be made a reality. If there was a corresponding Amendment in Clause 8 to that in Clause 3 it would then be clear that the Commissioners were bound to make the facilities under Clause 3 mandatory if they were demanded by the owners.
MR. HERBERTsaid that the Amendment was totally unnecessary. If the owners made it a condition of any scheme that the facilities given in Clause 3 should be granted, then the Commissioners
610
would be bound to make those facilities part of the scheme.
MR. BRIDGEMANsaid he could not see in reading Clause 3 that the matter was so clear. There was nothing about the owners there at all. It entirely depended upon the decision of the Commissioners whether there was to be a scheme or not.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he would like the right hon. Gentleman to say whether, if the owners or trustees asked for facilities under Clause 3, the Commission was bound to give them.
MR. BIRRELL: Yes; if the owners or trustees require it as part of the scheme the Commissioners are bound to give them.
LORD BALCARRES: If it is part of the scheme; but if it is part of the scheme which the local education authority refuses to accept, and consequently the trust has to be considered under Clause 8, have the owners then any right to place their demands before the Commissioners, and have the Commissioners any power to order that Clause 3 facilities shall be given?
MR. BIRRELL: Certainly.
MR. BRIDGEMAN: With that assurance I will withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BALCARRESmoved to add to the clause, "Provided that in no case shall the rent fixed by a scheme be less than the amount which will be produced by a charge of 5s. per head of average attendance," in order to elicit from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education what was in the mind of the Government as to the amount of rent to be paid. The figure he had put in the Amendment was a token figure; but after all 5 per cent, on the cost of accommodation per child, including cost of site and conveyance of land, was not excessive. In Lancashire the cost per child accommodated ranged from £12 to £15. The Chancellor of the Duchy had said that the sum of money provided by Clause 12

611
in the Bill would be paid to denominational schools for rent and repairs and he thought the right hon. Gentleman said that 2s. per child was a fair amount to pay for maintenance. He should like to know whether that was considered to be the rent payable under this arrangement.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 5, line 40, after the word ' considered ' to add the words ' provided that in no case shall the rent fixed by a scheme he less than the amount which will be produced by a charge of 5s. per head on average attendance.' " —(Lord Balcarres.)
Question proposed " That those words be there added."
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH,)said it was quite impossible for the Government to accept these or any similar words. They would impose a quite unreasonable fetter on the Commissioners, and it would be extremely foolish on the part of the Government to do so at this stage. He did not desire to go into questions of finance, because he did not think this was the proper place to do so. A statement had been published in newspapers which dealt with this question.
LORD BALCARRESsaid he had no desire to press the Amendment, but he did think that they were entitled to some more succinct reply than they had received from the hon. Member. No doubt there had been a long statement in Saturday's newspapers written by the President of the Board of Education, but all he could gather from it was that the Minister for Education said that educational finance was in a complete muddle and he hoped to settle it next year. It was no use saying that a satisfactory answer was given in the newspapers; it was much more important that a satisfactory answer should be given to the Committee at that moment.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid in regard to Clause 12 he wished to point out that it only provided for the payment of a grant of £1,000,000. That clause had nothing to do with rent, and simply provided that £1,000,000 should be advanced. It was impossible to say
612
whether this Amendment, therefore, could be dealt with on that clause; he was not sure that it would then be in order.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONwished to call the attention of the Committee to the relevancy of this Amendment. The clause provided that the Commission should make schemes with respect to voluntary school buildings held under trust. It went on to give a great many directions to the Commission, some of which appeared to be important and some of which were admittedly unimportant. Further on the Bill proposed to provide for a million of money, which was to be given, he supposed, for rent and repairs. Under the circumstances it might be that the Government were unable to give them any answer, but he thought the request of his hon. friend was a reasonable one. Having regard to the variety of instructions which they had already given to the Commission it was not unreasonable that they should give directions as to the distribution of the £1,000,000.
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid the question of the £1,000,000 had nothing to do with this clause, which merely dealt with the power to obtain schemes.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that of course he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, but having regard to the tenor of the Bill he thought the Commissioners should have some indication as to the line they were to take as to the payments for rent in return for the use of the schools.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid that the Government were not anxious to take more than was just, and he could imagine no worse kind of Amendment than that which they were now discussing. No form of instruction could be more undesirable than that which fixed either a maximum or a minimum. To take such a course might inflict great hardship upon voluntary schools, and it was not the kind of direction that the Government desired to give.
SIR F. BANBURYthought the answer of the Solicitor-General was a good one, but said it was different from that which

613
was given by the Minister for Education. If the sum of five shillings was fixed it would bind the Commissioners, who might desire to give more. He suggested the withdrawal of the Amendment.
LORD BALCARRESasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. CAVEmoved an Amendment to provide that the schemes of the Commission—
"shall be subject to the like conditions as to publication and approval by His Majesty in Council as a scheme made by the Board of Education under the Endowed Schools Acts and subject thereto."
He said that the object of the Amendment was that schemes made under this Act should be subject to the same provision as to publication and approval as schemes made under the existing Acts. They had no objection to the constitution of the Commission, but he did not think that any body of men should be freed from all control whatever, and no harm would be done if the procedure laid down by the Endowed Schools Acts were applied to these Commissioners. It was an extraordinary thing that in this Bill every one of the precautions to which they were accustomed in other Acts of Parliament was omitted. In every other case, including the Endowed Schools Acts, provision was made for the publication of the schemes, and time was given for objection. Under this Bill there was nothing of the kind. A scheme made by the Commissioners became operative at once, without the least chance being given for objection or appeal. If hon. Members went through the Bill from beginning to end, they would find that all the old precautions were omitted. He had not moved his Amendment on the Paper which provided that the Commission should not make any such scheme with respect to any schoolhouse of which the trusts had been declared less than thirty years before the passing of this Act except with the consent of the owners of the schoolhouse, but he felt bound to move the Amendment which he now brought forward.
614
Amendment proposed—
" In page 6, line 1, after the word ' Commission ' to insert the words ' shall be subject to the like conditions as to publication and approval by His Majesty in Council as a scheme made by the Board of Education under the Endowed Schools Act, but subject thereto.'"—(Mr. Cave.)
Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
SIR W. ROBSONthought his hon. and learned friend could hardly have considered the effect of his Amendment upon the procedure of the Commission. It was of the highest importance that their procedure should be rapid, and that was the reason why the idea of the Commission was adopted at all. It was a very strong Commission, and it was one from which one could safely say that no appeal was necessary. The object of the Government being to secure rapidity, it was not unreasonable to desire that the decisions of the Commission should be final. For that reason the Government stood by the provisions of the Bill and could not accept the Amendment.
MR. BRIDGEMANsupported the Amendment. Rapidity had been urged as the great object to be aimed at. Considering the very short time the Commission would give to the decision of these questions in view of the number of cases, it was extremely probable they would make some mistakes, and therefore an appeal was necessary. Earlier in this clause they tried to obtain an extension of the date for voluntary agreements, and that having been refused it was still more important that there should be an appeal owing to the greater and heavier work which the Commissioners had to do. If there was this enormous number of schemes to make and no time to make them in—if rapidity was to be the one object that the Commissioners were to have in view—it was quite certain that there would be a considerable number of mistakes, and there would have to be some form of appeal. He therefore thought the Government ought either to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend or the one that stood a little lower down on the Paper in his name.
MR. HERBERTthought that if they had had no experience in this matter there might have been a good deal to be said for the Amendment, but fortunately they were not without some experience. The hon. Member had pointed out that the Charitable Trusts Act and the other Acts he had referred to had always contained a provision for an appeal. He himself was so impressed by what had been said in this regard on previous occasions that he had asked the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education for a return of the number of appeals that had been lodged under these various Acts. The return showed the number to be twenty-six, of which only six had resulted in the alteration of the scheme. The appeals, therefore, were quite a negligible quantity, and having regard to the confidence the Committee had in the Commissioners he thought this matter might safely be left in their hands. It must not be forgotten that the schemes made under previous Acts had been made without argument on behalf of the persons concerned, while the present Commission would give the fullest opportunity of being heard to those whoso interests were affected. Seeing, therefore, that appeals had been so few when political passions were not aroused, and bearing in mind the possibility of the Act being made inoperative by an enormous number of appeals if trustees desired for political reasons to block its progress, he thought it would not be wise to give a right of appeal. It seemed to him that although, theoretically, it might be foolish not to have some appeal, looking at the matter in the light of experience it was utterly unnecessary.
SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid the remarks of the hon. Member for Wycombe were, to his mind, a strong argument in favour of an appeal. His argument shortly was that there should not be an appeal because it was so seldom required; but that made it all the more necessary that there should be a court of appeal, in order to prevent the least chance of there being anything in the nature of a miscarriage of justice. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General said the Commissioners had met with the general approval of the Committee, but
616
he forgot that those Commissioners would not live for ever, and that others would have to be appointed, and they might not enjoy the confidence of this House in the same way as these three gentlemen did. He believed, especially on the Liberal side of the House, there had been a strong argument not for diminishing courts of appeal but for increasing them. There had been a question of a criminal court of appeal and other courts of appeal, all of which had received strong support from the opposite side of the House. But here they had a Bill which was going to affect the whole of the country and was going to create a sort of Star Chamber, and the Radical Party were going to allow the Star Chamber to be created. He hoped his hon. friend would go to a division, in which case he would receive the support not only of all hon. Members on the Unionist but of many hon. Members on the Radical side of the House.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the main reason advanced for declining to accede to this Amendment was that it was essential there should be rapidity. They had heard of the " happy despatch," and that appeared to be the method the Solicitor-General proposed to adopt with regard to the voluntary schools of the country, 14.000 in number. He had, however, no quarrel with rapidity if it could be combined with justice. But it was surely expedient that every precaution should be taken that the Party brought before the tribunal should be assured of the justice of that tribunal. The Bill contained no provision whatever for the alteration or amendment of a scheme made by the Commission. There was nothing to suggest that a scheme once made could ever be altered. A scheme was made by the Commission and after a certain date the Commission disappeared and no arrangement was made for anybody to take its place, whereas in the area of the school, with its shifting population, the whole of the conditions might be altered in five years. He desired, with the Solicitor-General, that if this Bill came into operation it should come into operation with promptitude, but he also desired that it should come in with the goodwill of the parties concerned,

617
and that would not be the case if there was any suggestion that the action of the Commission was hasty and illadvised, or that a decision once given could neither be recousidered nor amended.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid the point of allowing a review of a scheme not by way of appeal from the decision of the Commission, but a review at a later date rendered necessary by a change in circumstances, was engaging the attention of the Minister for Education.
MR. CAVEsaid that his Amendment did not provide for an appeal. Its only effect was to give time for consideration and objections. The clause provided no such opportunity, and that being so he must press the Amendment to a division.
MR. EVELYN CECILsaid he did not know quite where his Amendment, requiring schemes to be laid on the Table of both Houses for six weeks, stood with regard to this Amendment. It might be that they were the same in effect although they were quite different with regard to the working. However that might be it was not right that a new civil court should be set up without a court of appeal to revise its decisions. Under the law there was no civil court from which there was no appeal. They were now setting up a new jurisdiction— a new civil court without setting up a court of appeal. If the Government said at this stage of the Bill that there should not be a court of appeal there was a good deal more reason for calling this court a Star Chamber than there appeared to be at first. There ought to be an appeal. In the analagous case of the Charity Commissioners the schemes were laid upon the Table of both Houses, and the same thing

AYES.

Abraham, William(Cork, N.E.)

Banner, John S. Hannood-

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Boland, John

Cave, George

Arnold-Forster, RtHnHughO.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Ashley, W. W.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Balearros, Lord

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Clancy, John Joseph

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J. (CityLond.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Burke, E. Hiiviland-

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

was done in the case of provisional orders, and there ought not to be a new jurisdiction set up without some chance being given to revise its decisions These schemes ought certainly to b submitted to Parliament.
MR. PERKSthought there was great force in the suggestion that the schemes should be allowed to lie on the Table of the House, and he came to the conclusion on quite different grounds from those which influenced the hon. Member for Aston Manor. He did not wish to say anything derogatory to the Commission, but at the same time he had to express his regret that among all the experts upon this question it had not been possible for the right hon. Gentleman to find a Nonconformist or a Member of the Liberal Party to serve as one of the Commissioners. Although the Government had no doubt been guided by the desire to find the best men, at the same time it was quite within the bounds of possibility to find Gentlemen for these very important posts who might have given perhaps, greater confidence to the Nonconformists of the country, and also to some Members of the Liberal Party. Therefore, he thought, having in view the extraordinary results that did sometimes arise in appointing to important positions men who had not altogether been tried, it was import that the House should have the opportunity from time to time in years to come to review some of the decisions, if they thought proper, of the Commissioners under the extraordinary powers with which they had been endowed under his Bill.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 116; Noes, 286. (Divisional List No. 200.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hill. Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

O'Kelly, James(Roscornmon, N

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Hogan, Michael

O'Malley, William

Courthope, G. Loyd

Houston, Robert Pateraon

O'Mara, James

Craik, Sir Henry

Hunt, Rowland

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Crean, Eugene

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

O'Shee, James John

Cullinan, J.

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

Delany, William

Kilbride, Denis

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Donelan, Captain A.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal W.)

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin,S)

Ridmond, John E. (Waterfora

Du Cros, Harvey

Lundon, W.

Redrrond, William (Clare)

Duffy, William J.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

Macpherson, J. T.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Fell, Arthur

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Field, William

M'Kean, John

Starkey, John R.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

M'Killop, W.

Sullivan, Donal

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Magnus, Sir Philip

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Flyun, James Christopher

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Turnour, Viscount

Forster, Henry William

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Meagher, Michael

White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Ginnell, L.

Mooney, J. J.

Willoughby, de Eresby Lord

Haddock, George R.

Murphy. John

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Halpin, J.

Nolan Joseph

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashf'rd

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid

Young, Samuel

Hay, Hon. Claude George

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Younger, George

Hay den, John Patrick

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Hazleton, Richard

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Helmsley, Viscount

O'Hare, Patrick

Hervey, F.W.F(BuryS, Edm'ds

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Brigg, John

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh

Adkins, W. Ryland

Bright, J. A.

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.

Agnew, George William

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Brodie, H. C.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Alden, Percy

Brooke, Stopford

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Armitage, R.

Brunner, SirJohnT.(Cheshire)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Astbury, John Meir

Buckmastor, Stanley O.

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Elibank, Master of

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Everett, R. Lacey

Barker, John

Byles, William Pollard

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Cameron, Robert

Fenwick, Charles

Barnard, E. B.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Fereng, T. R.

Barnes, G. N.

Causton. Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

Fiennes. Hon. Eustace

Beale, W. P.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Fuller, John Michael F.

Beauchamp, E.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Fullerton, Hugh

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Gill, A. H.

Bock, A. Cecil

Cleland. J. W.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn

Bell, Richard

Clough, W.

Glendinning, R. G.

Bellairs, Carlyon

Clynes. J. R.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Gooch, George Peabody

Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Grant, Corrie

Bennett, E. N.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Bertram, Julius

Corbett.CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Griffith, Ellis J.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Cory, Clifford John

Grove, Archibald

Billson, Alfred

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Gulland, John W.

Black, Alexander Win. (Banff)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire

Cremer, William Randal

Hall, Frederick

Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Crosfield, A. H.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.

Harms worth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Brace, William

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Hart-Davies, T.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Branch, James

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Harwood, George

620

621

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Seaverns J. H.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Micklem, Nathamel

Shackleton, David .James

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Hedges, A. Paget

Mond, A.

Sliipman, Dr. John G.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Henderson, J. M (Aberdeen, W.)

Montagu, E. S.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Henry, Charles S.

Montgomery, H. H.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Snowden, P.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wyeombe

Morgan, J Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Soares, Ernest J.

Higham, John Sharp

Morrell, Philip

Spicer, Albert

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morse, L. L.

Stanley, Hn. A Lyulph (Chesh)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Murray, James

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Hodge, John

Myer, Horatio

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Napier, T. B.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N)

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End.)

Horniman, Emslie John

Nicholls, George

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Hyde, Clarendon

Norman, Henry

Summerbell, T.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Nuttall, Harry

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Jackson, R. S.

Paul, Herbert

Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Lock)

Tennant,Sir Edward (Salisbury

Jardine, Sir J.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Jenkins, J.

Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)

Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Thomasson, Franklin

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Philipps. J Wynford(Pembroke

Thompson, J. W.H(Somerset, E.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Torrance, A. M.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Pollard, Dr.

Toulmin, George

Kekewich, Sir George

Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Vivian, Henry

King, Alfred John(Knutsford)

Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Walker, H. De E. (Leicester)

Laidlaw, Robert

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Wallace, Robert

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leorainster

Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford, E.

Walsh, Stephen

Lamb, Ernest H.(Rochester)

Radford, G. H.

Walters, John Tudor

Lambert, George

Rainy, A. Holland

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Lamont, Norman

Raphael, Herbert H.

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

Lea, HughCecil (St. Pancras, E.)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Wardle, George J.

Leese, SirJoseph F. (Accrington

Roa, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

Lohmann, R. C.

Rees, J. D.

Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Rendall, Athelstan

Waterlow, D. S.

Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

Renton, Major Leslie

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Levy, Maurice

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Lewis, John Herbert

Rickett, J. Compton

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Lough, Thomas

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Whitehead, Rowland

Lupton, Arnold

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

Wiles, Thomas

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Robertson, J. M. (Tynesido)

Williams, LlewellynfCarm'rth'n

Maclean Donald

Robinson, S.

Williams, Arthur Walters

Maenamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

M'Arthur, William

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

M'Crae, George

Runciman, Walter

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid

M'Kenna, Reginald

Russel, T.W.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

M'Micking, .Major G.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Yoxall James Henry

Maddison, Frederick

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Mallet, Charles E.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Mr. Whiteleyand Mr. J. A. Pease.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Liocoln)

Schwann, SirC- E. (Manchester

Marnham, F. J.

Scott, A.H (Ashton under Lyne)

Massie, J.

Sears, J.E.

MR. EVELYN CECILmoved an Amendment requiring that a scheme made by the Commission should be laid upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament as soon as possible after the same had been made, and should lie there for six weeks, and should have effect as if enacted by the Act, unless within that period a Resolution were passed by either House rejecting the same.
622
This practice was a very usual one. It was done in the case of the Charity Commissioners and in the case of Provisional Orders, and he thought the decisions of this Commission were exactly in the same category. It would secure a much greater measure of justice to the schemes and to the parties represented. It was a much shorter procedure than that under the Endowed

623
Schools Acts. It was entirely different from the last Amendment in that particular. It was also more concise and simplified. It was one which hon. Gentlemen who had studied the practice of Parliament thoroughly understood, and it seemed to him that in a matter of this kind where no appeal whatever was to be made, the simple, natural, and usual procedure was to establish a time limit during which these schemes should lie on the Table of both Houses, and during which objectors who had a locus standi could make themselves heard, and the matter could be decided by Parliament.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 6, line 1, after the word ' shall' to insert the words ' be laid upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament as soon as possible after the same has been made, and shall lie there for six weeks, and, unless within that period a Resolution shall be passed by either House rejecting the same.'"—(Mr. Evelyn Cecil.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR W. ROBSONsaid he could not accept the Amendment, first, on the ground that its effect would be to delay proceedings, and, secondly, on the ground that it would not enable the parties to come to an amicable settlement.
SIR E. CARSONsubmitted that, since they were giving to the Commission a much greater power than even the Court of Chancery possessed, there ought to be some provision for Parliament to review their decisions. There was no precedent for enacting that a scheme should have effect without Parliament having any power whatever in the matter. There were precedents for giving power to make schemes, but in this case they were going

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Burke, E. Hiiviland-

Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSirAlex F

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Baring, Hn. Guy (Winchester)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Carson, lit. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Boland, John

Cave, George

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO

Bowles, G. Stewart

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W

Ashley, W. W.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH.

Bridgenian, W. Clive

Cecil, Lord K. (Marylebone, E.)

Balcarres, Lord

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Clancy, John Joseph

Balfour, RtHn. A.J. (CityLond.)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewishani)

a great deal further, because they we making them part of the Act of Parliament. They had been told that the Commissioners were going to act in the same way as the Court of Chancery, b all schemes drawn up by the Court Chancery were subject to review in the Court of Appeal and if necessary in the House of Lords. Were they giving the exceptional powers to the Commissioners because the Government thought the were better judges than the Judges in the Court of Chancery? He could not si why they should be placed in a different position.
MR. LYTTELTONthought they were entitled to some answer from the Government upon this point. No precedent had bee put forward for such a procedure as this in fact it was an absolutely unprecedented clause, because it deprived the King's Bench of the right to interfere even by the old remedy of prohibition or the rule of certiorari. It was astonishing that they could get no further explanation in regard to a proceeding which place these three distinguished men in position superior to the Court of Chancery and made their schemes perpetual. Surely they were entitled to some explanation t make their bewilderment less.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid the question c the terms of the agreement was a matter which would be reserved for consideration on Report, but as to precedent, the provision now challenged was adopted and adapted from the Church of Scotland Act, 1905, for which the Front Opposition Bench itself was responsible.
Question put.
The Committee divided—Ayes, 135 Noes, 299. (Division List No.201.)

Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

Hunt, Rowland

O'Shee, James John

Collins, SirWm J(S. Pancras, W

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. HnCol. W.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Courthope, G. Loyd

Keswick, William

Power, Patrick Joseph

Craik, Sir Henry

Kilbride, Denis

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Crean, Eugene

King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Cullinan, J.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Delany, William

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Long, Col. Ch"s. W. (Evesham)

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Donelan, Captain A.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire,

Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

Lundon, W.

Scott, SirS. (Marvlebone, W.)

Du Cros, Harvey

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)

Duffy, William J.

Macpherson, J. T.

Starkey, John R.

Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan)

Mac Voagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Sullivan, Donal

Fell, Arthur

M'lver, SirLewisfEdinburghW.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

Field, William

M'Kean, John

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

M'Killo ., W.

Thornton, Percy M.

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Magnus, Sir Philip

Valentia, Viscount

Flynn, James Christopher

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Forster, Henry William

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Meagher, Michael

Warde, Col. ('. K. (Kent, Mid)

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Middle more, J. Throginorton

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Ginnell, L.

Mooney, J. J.

Wiles, Thomas

Haddock, George R.

Murphy, John

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Halpin, J.

Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf' d.)

Nolan, Joseph

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Harrison Broadley, Col. H. B.

O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid.

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

Hay, Hon. Claude George

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Connor, James(Wieklow, W

Young, Samuel

Hazloton, Richard

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N)

Younger, George

Helmsley, Viscount

O'Hare, Patrick

Hervev, F.W.F.(BurvS.Edm'ds

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Evelyn Cecil and Mr. Rawlinson.

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon ,N.

Hogan, Michael

O'Malley, William

Hornby, Sir William Henry

O'Mara, James

Houston, Robert Paterson

O Shaughnessy, P. J.

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Billson, Alfred

Clynes, J. R.

Adkins, W. Ryland

Birrell, Rt. Hon Augustine

Coats, Sir T. Glon(Renfrew. W.)

Agnew, George William

Black, Alexandi-ii Win. (Banff)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Alden, Percy

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

Cooper, G. J.

Allen, A. Acland (Christehurch)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Armitage, R.

Brace, William

Corbett, C. H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd

Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry

Bramsdon, T. A.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Astbury, John Meir

Branch, James

Cory, Clifford John

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Brigg, John

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.

Bright, J. A.

Craig, Herbert.). (Tynemouth)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Cremer, William Randal

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Brodie, H. C.

Crosfield, A. H.

Barker, John

Brooke, Stopford

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Brunner, J. F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Davies, Ell s William (Eifion)

Barnard, E. B.

Brunner, Sir John T.(Cheshire)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Barnes, G. N.

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Barren, Rowland Hirst

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Beale, W. P.

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.)

Beauchamp, E.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Dobson, Thomas W.

Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Beck, A. Cecil

Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyChas.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Bell, Richard

Byles, William Pollard

Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall

Bellairs, Carlyon

Cameron, Robert

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.)

Causton, Rt. HnRichard Knight

Elibank, Master of

Bennett, E. N.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Berridge, T. H. D.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Bertram, Julius

Clarke, C. Goddard

Everett, R. Lacey

Bethell, J.H.(Esseex, Romford)

Cleland, J. W.

Fenwick, Charles

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Clough, W.

Ferens, T. R.

626

627

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lough, Thomas

Runciman, Walter

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lupton, Arnold

Russell, T. W.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Fullerton, Hugh

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Gill, A. H.

Maclean, Donald

Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

Glendinning, R. G.

M'Arthur, William

Sears, J. E.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Callum, John M.

Shackleton, David James

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Crae, George

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford

Grant, Corrie

M'Kenna, Reginald

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Micking, Major G.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Maddison, Frederick

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Mallet, Charles E.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Griffith, Ellis J.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Smetton, Donald Mackenzie

Grove, Archibald

Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln)

Snowden, P,

Gulland, John W.

Marnham, F. J.

Soares, Ernest J.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Massie, J.

Spicer, Sir Albert

Hall, Frederick

Masterman, C. F. G.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Harmswoth, R.L. (Caithn'ss-sh

Mond, A.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hart-Davies, T.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Harvey A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Montagu, E. S.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Harwood, George

Montgomery, H. G.

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Siunmerbell, T.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Morgan, J. Llovd(Carmarthen)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Morrell, Philip

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Hedges, A. Paget

Morse, L. L.

Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Myer, Horatio

Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury)

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Napier, T. B.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Henry, Charles S.

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

Nicholls, George

Thomason. Franklin

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe

Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncaster)

Thompson, J. W,H.(S'mers't, E..

Higham, John Sharp

Norman, Henry

Tomkinson, James

Hobart, Sir Robert

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Torrance, A.M.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Nuttall, Harry

Toulmin, George

Hodge, John

Paul, Herbert

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Ure, Alexander

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Pearce, William (limehouse)

Vivian, Henry

Hope, W. Bateman (Somerest, N

Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Horniman, Emsile John

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

Wallace, Robert

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Walsh. Stephen

Hyde, Clarendon

Philpps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Walters, John Tudor

Illingworth, Percy H.

Pollard, Dr.

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Ward, John (Stoke-on-Trent)

Jackson, R.S.

Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

Wardle, George J.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Jardine, Sir J.

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Jenkins, J.

Radford, G.H.

Waterlow, D.S.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Raphael, Herbert H.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarbora'

Whitehead, Rowland

Kekewich, Sir George

Rees, J. D.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

King, Alferd John (Knutsford)

Rendall, Athelstan

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Laidlaw, Robert

Renton, Major Leslie

Williams, Llwwelyn (C'rm'rth'n

Lamb, EdmundG. (Leominster

Richards, T.F. (Wolverhampt'n

Wills,Arthur Walters

Lambert, George

Rickett, J. Compton

Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull, W.

Lamont, Norman

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

Leese, SirJosephF. (Accrington)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Winfrey, R.

Lehmann, R.C.

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mild)

Lever, A.Levy (Essex, Harwich

Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf 'rd

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Robertson, J.M. (Tyneside)

Yoxall, James Henry

Levy, Maurice

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Lewis, John Herbert

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Rowlands, J.

SIR WILLIAM ANSONmoved to insert words providing that a scheme
628
" may from time to time be altered by-order of the Board of Education on the

629
application of the owners of the school or the local education authority, and with the consent of both." He understood that this matter had already engaged the attention of the President of the Board of Education. He moved the Amendment for the purpose of calling attention to the extraordinary gap which existed in the clause as it stood. He did not suppose that it was intended that the Commission should be permanent. That being so, there was no power to which the owners of schools and the local education authorities might go for the determination of questions arising between them after the Commission had ceased to exist. Unless words were inserted a curious state of things might arise. After a school had been adopted under Clause !i the neighbourhood might change altogether and the school be no longer needed, yet the local authority would be bound to maintain the building and the owners to provide the school. In that way the owners of the school might be prevented from using the school for some more useful purpose. Under these circumstances he moved the Amendment pro forma. He thought the Government i had already considered the question, butt he was sure that there would be great difficulty in working the clause.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 6, line 2, at end, to insert the words " but may from time to time be altered | by older of the Board of Education on the application of the owners of the school or the local education authority, and with the consent | of both.' "—(Sir William Anson.)
Question proposed, " That those words j be there added."
MR. BIRRELLsaid that Part II. provided for an alteration of the scheme, but, as he proposed, with the approval of Gentlemen opposite, to move the omission of Part II., some Amendment would be necessary. He did not himself think that the Amendment of the hon. Baronet went quite far enough; and, therefore, it would be necessary on Report for him to introduce words which would fill the gap and carry out the object desired more efficiently.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIR FRANCIS POWELLmoved the omission of sub-section (4). It had been stated that there was an analogy between the action of the Commission in the case of the Scottish Churches and the power to be given to the Commission in this Bill; but he believed that there was no relation between the circumstances of the two cases, Whether that were so or not, this was a new Parliament, and Members were fully entitled to receive some justification for this entirely unprecedented and most remarkable action. It was more than whispered that this Court was of a highly exalted character, and that it would be almost an insult to submit its decisions to review. It should be remembered however, that Courts of the highest authority, manned by lawyers of the greatest legal distinction, experience, and skill were not ashamed to have their decisions reviewed. The Commission proposed to be set up by this Bill was at least as liable to error as other human institutions. It might err by exceeding its powers, by greatly mistaking them, or by inadequate interpretation of the language of the statute. He maintained that old principles should be adopted the solution of new problems which demanded the highest exercise of the best judicial mind. The power of review was one of the greatest importance. He happened to remember the time when this House passed an Address to the Crown relating to schemes of the Endowed Schools Commission with no power of review. Some change was necessary. Shortly after a Bill was introduced and passed to effect a change by giving powers to review. He thought that instead of establishing this new Commission certain powers required in dealing with trusts, charitable or educational, might have been given to the Charity Commissioners.
Amendment proposed—
" In page 6, line 3, to leave out subsection (4)."—(Sir Francis Powell.)
Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out to the word ' and,' in line 5, stand part of the clause."
MR. BIRRELLsaid that strong words had been used in reference to a provision which had not even the merit of originality. The sub-section followed the language of the Churches of Scotland Act of 1905. He thought that in a case of this sort, having constituted a Court consisting of a member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and two other distinguished men, it would be absurd to allow an appeal in even case. It was essential that the Court should be strong, competent, and likely to inspire confidence; and that it should be allowed to carry out the object they all desired, a speedy settlement. It was true that the Commission would have to deal with very difficult questions affecting a large number of cases, but none of the forebodings expressed in old times in similar circumstances had been warranted by facts. There was no more remarkable and useful Commission of lawyers than that which was presided over by Sir Matthew Hale and which settled all the cases between landlord and tenant, leaseholders and freeholders, remaindermen and reversionaries, arising out of the Fire of London. That seemed going back a long time, but let anyone visiting Guildhall see the portrait there of Sir Matthew Hale, presented by the Corporation of London as a testimony of their obligation to him and the Court over which he presided. There was no appeal from their decisions, and they brushed aside the ordinary rules of evidence as then existing, and in the course of thirteen months an enormous number of cases were settled, involving immense sums, arising out of the Fire of London, which destroyed hundreds of deeds. All the cases were settled to the satisfaction of everybody end no appeal was allowed. Only one solitary peer made a complaint in the book of protests, that true home of lost causes, because he was shocked at there being no appeal. It was essential that the competent Court to be established under the Bill should settle these cases finally and quickly.
MR. A. J. BALFOURhad nothing whatever to say against the interesting
632
historical review of the right hon. Gentle-ma n, in which he went back to 1666. [Mr. BIRRELL: The same period as the Act of Uniformity.] The right hon. Gentleman assumed that the perpetual tribute was awarded to Sir Matthew Hale because he swept aside all the rules of evidence and forms of procedure, and he might ask the right hon. Gentleman if these three gentlemen wore expected to perform a great public service of the same character. ["No, no."] Then there was no chance of their earning the immortality accorded to Sir Matthew Hale. One observation of the right hon. Gentleman's was unnecessarily controversial, when he said that no man who was party to the Act of the late Government in connection with the troubles in the Scottish Presbyterian Churches could object to this. But there was absolutely no parallel. The right hon. Gentleman had reminded them that this Commission would act according to the procedure of the Courts. The Scottish Commission had to deal with a great practical issue which was outside any mere legal decision, and of the three gentlemen appointed only one was a lawyer. There was no suggestion that they were to follow the practice of any Court of law. The gentlemen appointed under this Bill were a Court of law. He should like to ask what Court would have power to interfere with the Commission if sub-section (4) was not passed? If the Commission, acting within their powers, were to misuse those powers, it might be desirable that there should be an appeal, though he would be prepared to take the risk simply with a view to stopping interminable legal proceedings. But it was also possible that the Commissioners might go outside their powers. In that case, was there any power to restrain their action by any of His Majesty's Courts?
SIR W. ROBSONexpressed the opinion that if there was reason to believe that the Commission had not acted in accordance with the ordinary principles of the Court of Chancery, and there was no sub-section like that with which they were dealing, it would be possible to proceed, not by way of direct appeal, but by mandamus or prohibition, by some order from a superior Court on the ground that the Commissioners were not acting within their proper scope.

633
In his opinion, this sub-section would prevent any proceedings by way of prohibition so long as the Commissioners did not go outside the whole scope of the Act. If they were to enact that money should be devoted under a scheme to some purpose wholly foreign to the general objects and purpose of the Act, in his opinion the right of the superior Court to proceed by way of prohibition would exist, but within certain limits.
MR. F. B. SMITHsaid he did not know whether it was the intention and desire of the Government that there should be a right of prohibition or some such power surviving to interfere with the action of the Commissioners if that action had been to travel outside the powers vested in them; but if so, he desired to impress upon the Government the fact that the language of this section was particularly ill-adapted to secure that result. It was provided in the first place in Clause 8, sub-section (2), that the Commission should act in accordance with the principles followed by the High Court, but the Committee must consider the effect of sub-section (4),which provided that no Court should have power to review or interfere in any way with the scheme or proceedings of the Commission. He asked under what words in this Bill, or under what common law right existing independently of the Bill, the Solicitor-General suggested that the right of prohibition could survive in the face of the perfectly clear statement in the clause. Did he understand the Solicitor-General to say that such an interference would not be in direct violation of the words of this section, which were that no Court should interfere in any way? He thought if the hon. and learned Gentleman had spoken a little more considerately he would not have given that opinion. It became necessary, therefore, to ask for a clear and distinct opinion from either the Solicitor-General or the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, who had had the advantage of a long and distinguished career on the Chancery side. He contended that if they were to attempt any proceedings by way of mandamus or prohibition upon the Bill as drafted, and if they were asked how they could justify their claim ' to this remedy in face of the words of
634
Clause 4, no living lawyer could make an answer which would satisfy the Court. He welcomed the statement, however, that it was the intention of this Bill that if the Commissioners travelled outside their jurisdiction they should be dealt with. If that was the view of the Government he should certainly ask the Minister in charge of the Bill to make some change in these words.
MR. PAULsaid he had observed that upon every legal question of great general public interest and importance all the eminent lawyers in the House always differed, while the sensible laymen always agreed. He merely rose to remind the Loader of the Opposition that there was a Court, the creation of a recent statute, from which there was no appeal at all, namely, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
LORD R. CECILsincerely hoped the Government would accept this Amendment. The real point was whether under this clause there would be any appeal at all. He would, therefore, ask the solicitor-General whether he really suggested that there would be any means of-restraining the Commissioners, however widely they might travel beyond their jurisdiction.
SIR W. ROBSONsaid that no proceeding of prohibition would be effective under Sub-section (4), but that he could imagine a case arising under the Churches of Scotland Act where the Commissioners had allocated the property to some other community altogether than either the United Free Church or the Free Church. That, clearly, would be going so entirely beyond the real purpose of the Act as to approach almost to the committing of an illegal act. Under those circumstances, he thought prohibition would lie.
SIR E. CARSONreminded the hon. Member for Northampton that it was not at all to be wondered at that lawyers and even Courts disagreed on these points. When lawyers were spoken of contemptuously it might be only fair to bear in mind that they rendered a

635
service in this House in pointing out directions in which improvements could be effected in Bills. He gathered from the speech of the Solicitor-General that under certain circumstances prohibition might lie and that under certain other circumstances prohibition might not lie: but he thought the hon. and learned Gentleman would agree that it would be impossible to tell under what circumstances

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Hall, Frederick

Adkins, W. Ryland

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hardie, J. Koir(MerthyrTydvil)

Agnew, George William

Clarke, C. Goddard

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Alden, Percy

Cleland, J. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

Clough, W.

Harmsworth. R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

Armitage, R.

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Hart-Davies, T.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Harwood, George

Astbury, John Meir

Collins, SirWm J(S. Paneras, W.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Cooper, G. J.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E)

Corbett, C.H(Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hedges, A. Paget

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Cory, Clifford John

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Barker, John

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W-

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Craig, H. J. (Tynemouth)

Henry, Charles S.

Barnard, E. B.

Cremer, William Randal

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Crosfield, A. H.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Beale, W, P.

Davies, David (Montgomery Co

Higham, John Sharp

Beauchamp, E.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Beaumont. W. C. B. (Hexham)

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Hodge, John

Beck, A. Cecil

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Bell, Richard

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N

Holland. Sir William Henry

Bellairs, Carlyon

Dobson, Thomas W.

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Bennett, E. N.

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Horniman. Emslic John

Berridge, T. H. D.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Bertram, Julius

Dunne, MajorMartin(Walsall)

Hyde, Clarendon

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Bethell, T. H. (Essex, Maldon)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Billson, Alfred

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Jackson, R. S.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Elibank, Master of

Jardine, Sir J.

Black, Alexander Win. (Banff)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Jenkins, J.

Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire

Ev., Harry Trelawney

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.

Everett, R. Lacey

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Fenwick, Charles

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Brace, William

Fereny, T. R.

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Jowett, F. W.

Branch, James

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Kearley, Hudson E.

Brigg, John

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Kekewich, Sir George

Bright, J. A.

Fuller. John- .Michael F.

Kineaid-Stniih, Captain

Brocklehurst, W. D.

Fullerton, Hugh

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Brodie, H. C.

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.

Laidlaw, Robert

Brooke, Stopford

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

Gill, A. H.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Lambert, George

Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

Glendinning, R. G.

Lamont, Norman

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E.)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Gooch. George Peabody

Leese, Sir. J. F. (Accringrton

Burns. Rt. Hot. John

Grant, Corrie

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Level, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Levy, Maurice

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Lewis, John Herbert

Byles, Willam Pollard

Griffith, Ellie J.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Grove, Archibald

Lough, Thomas

Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

Gulland, John W.

Lupton. Arnold

Cheetham, John Frederick

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

stances they would lie and under what circumstances they would not. If the Committee passed this section they would be opening the door to further litigation.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 315; Noes, 148. (Division List No. 202.)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Priestley, Arthur (Granthnm)

Summerbell, T.

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Priestley ,W. E. B. (Bradford, E.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Maekarness, Frederic C.

Radford, G. H.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Maclean, Donald

Rainy, A. Holland

Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

Macnmara. Dr. Thomas J.

Raphael, Herbert H.

Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury)

M'Arthur, William

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

M'Callum, JohnM.

Rea, WalterRussell(Scarboro')

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

M'Crae, George

Rees, J. D.

Thomasson, Franklin

M'Kenna, Reginald

Rendall, Athelstan

Thompson, J.WH.(Somerset, E.

M'Laren, Sir C. K. (Leicester)

Renton, Major Leslie

Tomlinson, James

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mton)

Torrance, A. M.

M'Micking. .Major G.

Rickett, J. Compton

Toulmin, George

Maddison, Frederick

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Ure, Alexander

Mallet, Charles E.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Verney, F. W.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Roberts, John H. (Danbighs)

Vivian, Henry

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd.

Walker, H. lie R. (Leicester)

Marnham, F. J.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Wallace, Robert

Massie, J.

Robinson, S.

Walsh, Stephen

Menzies, Walter

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Walters, John Tudor

Micklem, Nathaniel

Roe, Sir Thomas

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Molteno. Percy Alport

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Walton. Joseph (Barnsley)

Mond, A.

Rowlands, J.

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Runciman. Walter

Wardle, George J.

Montagu, E. S.

Russell, T. W.

Wason, Eugene ((Clackmannan)

Montgomery. H. G.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Scarisbrick. T. T. L.

Waterlow, D. S.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Schwann, C. Duncvi (Hyde)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

Morrell, Philip

Scott, A.H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Morse, L. L.

Sears, J.E.

Whitehead, Rowland

Murray, James

Seddon, J.

Whitlev. J. H. (Halifax)

Myer, Horatio

Seely, Major J. B.

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Napier, T. B.

Shackleton, David James

Wiles, Thomas

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Shaw, Charles Edw (Stafford)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Nicholls, George

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Williams, Llewolyn(Carm'rth'n

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Norman, Henry

Simon, John Allsebrook

Wills, Arthur Walters

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Nuttall, Harry

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Paul, Herbert

S meat on, Donald Mackenzie

Winfrey, R.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Snowden, P.

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Soares, Ernest J.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Pearson.W. H.M. (SntTolk.Eye)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Woodhouse, SirJT. (Huddersfi'd

Perks, Robert William

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Yoxall, James Henry

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Stewart-Smith', D. (Kendal)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Strechev, Sir Edward

Pollard, Dr.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

NOES.

Abraham, William, (Cork, N.E.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Acland-Hood, Rt. HnSirAlexF.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Courthope, G. Loyd

Ambrose, Robert

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bull, Sir William James

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Craik, Sir Henry

Arkwright, .John Stanhope

Burke, E. Haviland-

Crean, Eugene

Arnold-Korster, Rt. Hn. HugliO .

Butcher. Samuel Henry

Cullinan, J.

Ashley, W. W.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Delany, William

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Carson, Rt. H m. Sir Edw. H.

Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway

Balcarres, Lord

Cave, George

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond.

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Donelan, Captain A.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Du Cross, Harvey

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Clancy, John Joseph

Duffy, William J.

Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry. N.)

Coates, E.Feetliani(Lewisham

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan)

Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Fell, Arthur

Bignold. Sir Arthur

Cogan, Denis J.

Field, William

Boland, John

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

638

639

Fletcher, J. S.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Rawlinson, JohnFrederickPeel

Flynn, James Christopher

Lundon, W.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Forster, Henry William

Macpherson, J. T.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

M'Iver, SirLewis(EdinburghW

Roche, John ((Sahvay, East)

Ginnell, L.

M'Kean, John

Ropner, Col. Sir Robert

Haddock. George R.

M'Killop, W.

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Halpin, J.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford)

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Smith, AbelH-(Hertford, East)

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Meagher, Michael

Starkey, John R.

Hayden, John Patrick

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Sullivan, Donal

Hazleton, Richard

Mooney, J. J.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.

Heaton, John Henniker

Murphy, John

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Helmsley, Viscount

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Thornton, Percy M.

Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

Nield, Herbert

Turnour, Viscount

Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

Nolan, Joseph

Valentia, Viscount

Hogan, Michael

O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Hornby, Sir William Henry

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Walrond. Hon. Lionel

Houston, Robert Paterson

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.

Hunt, Rowland

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.

Kenyon-Slanoy, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Willougliby de Eresby, Lord

Keswick, William

O'Hare, Patrick

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Kilbride, Denis

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stnart-

King,Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)

O'Kelly, JameslRoseoinmonN.)

Wyndham. Rt. Hon. George

Lane-Fox, G. R.

O'Malley, William

Young, Samuel

Law, Andrew Bonar(Dulwieh

O'Mara, James

Younger, George

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

O'Shaughnessy, P.J.

Long, Col. Chas. W.(Evesham)

O'Shee, James John

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Robert Cecil.

Long, Rt. Hn.Walter (Dublin, S.

Power, Patrick Joseph

And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded to interrupt the business.
Whereupon Mr. BIRRELL claimed, "That the Question, 'That the clause as

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

Cherry. Rt. Hon. R. R.

Adkine, W. Ryland

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Agnew, George William

Billson, Alfred

Clarke, C. Goddard

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Cleland, J. W.

Alden, Percy

Black, Alexander Wm. (Banff)

Clough, W.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Armitage, R.

Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

Cobbold, Ft'lix Thonrley

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Brace, William

Collins, .Sir W. J. (S. Pancras, W

Astbury, John Meir

Bramsdon, T. A

Cooper, G. J.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Branch, James

Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E.Grinst'd

Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

Brigg, John

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Bright, J. A.

Cory, Clifford John

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Brocklehurst, W.D.

Cotton .Sir H. J. S.

Barker, John

Brodie, H. C.

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Brooke, Stopford

Cremer, William Randal

Barnard, E. B.

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes. Leigh

Crosfield, A. H.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

Crossley, William J.

Beale, W. P.

Bryce, J.A (Inverness Burghs)

Davies, David (MontgomeryCo.

Beauchamp, E.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbo'rne

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Dovies, Timothy (Fulham)

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Burnveat, J. D W.

Davies W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Beck, A. Cecil

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Dickinson, W. H. (StPancrasN.

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.

Byles, William Pollard

Dobson, Thomas W.

Bennett, E. N.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

Berridge, T. H. D.

Causton, Rt. HnRichardKnight

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Bertram, Julius

Cheetham, John Frederick

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

amended stand part of the Bill,' be now put."
The Committee divided:— Ayes, 311; Noes, 145. (Division List No. 203.)

Dunne, Major E. Marin(Walsall

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominser

Richards, T.F. (Wolverh mp 'n

Edwards, Clemen (Denbigh)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rocheser)

Rickett, J. Compton

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lamber, George

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Elibank, Maser of

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accringon

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Roberson, SirGScott (Bradf'r

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside

Everett, R. Lacey

Levy, Maurice

Robinson, S.

Fenwick. Charles

Lewis, John Herbert

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Ferens, T. R.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Roe, Sir Thomas

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Lough, Thomas

Rogers F. E, Newman

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lupton, Arnold

Rowlands, J.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lutrell, Hugh Fownes

Runciman, Walter

Fuller, John Michael F.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Russell, T. W.

Fullerton, Hugh

Maedonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S

Mackamess, Frederic C.

Scarisbrick. T.T.L.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Maclean, Donald

Snhwaun, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Gill, A. H.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Schwann, SirC. E(Manchester)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

M'Callum, John M.

Scott, A.H.(Ashton underLyne)

Glendinning, R. G.

M'Crae, George

Sears, J. E.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Kenna, Reginald

Seddon, J.

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester

Shackleton, David James

Grant, Corrie

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Micking, Major G.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Maddison, Frederick

Silcook, Thomas Ball

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Mallet, Charles E.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Griffith, Ellis J.

Manfield, Harry (Northans)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Grove, Archibald

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Gulland, John W.

Marnham, F. J.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Gnrdon, Sir W. Brampton

Massie, J.

Snowden, P.

Hall, Frederick

Menzies, Walter

Soares, Ernest J

Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Spicer, Albert

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Stanley, Hn. A.Lyulph(Chesh.)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.

Mond, A.

Stewar, Halley (Greenock)

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Stewar-Smith, D. (Kendal,

Hart-Davies, T.

Montagu, E. S.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Harvey A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Montgomery, H. H.

Straus, B.S. (Mile End

Harwood, George

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Summerbell, T.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Morrell, Philip

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Hedges, A. Paget

Morse, L. L.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Murray, James

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Henderson, J.M (Aberdeen, W.

Myer, Horatio

Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

Henry, Charles S.

Napier, T. B.

Tennant, H J. (Berwickshire)

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Nicholls, George

Thomasson, Franklin

Higham, John Sharp

Nicholson, CharlesN. (Doncast'r

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset.E

Hobart. Sir Robert

Norman, Henry

Tomkinson, James

Hodge, John

Norton, Cap. Cecil William

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Nutall, Harry

Touhnin, George

Holland, Sir William Henry

Paul, Herbert

Ure, Alexander

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Verney, F. W.

Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset, N

Pearce William (Limehouse)

Vivian, Henry

Horniman, Emslie John

Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Perks, Robert William

Wallace, Robert

Hyde, Clarendon

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Walsh, Stephen

Illingworth, Percy H.

Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

Walters, John Tudor

Isaacs, Rutus Daniel

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Jackson, R. S.

Pollard, Dr.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Jardine, Sir J.

Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

Wardle, George J.

Jenkins, J.

Price, Robert John (Norfork, E.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.

Waterlow, D. S.

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea

Radford, G. H.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rainy, A. Holland

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Jowett, F. W.

Raphael, Herbert H.

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Whitehead, Rowland

Kekewich, Sir George

Rea, Walter Russell (Gl'cester)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Kincaid- Smith, Captain

Rees, J.D.

Wiles, Thomas

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Rendall, Athelstan

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Laidlaw, Robert

Renton, Major Leslie

Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'thn

642

643

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Winfrey, R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid

Wilson, Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W.)

Wood, T M'Kinnon

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Hudd'rsfi'd

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

Yoxall, Thomas Henry

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Duffy, William J.

Nield, Herbert

Ambrose, Robert

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

Nolan, Joseph

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Fell, Arthur

O'Brien, Kenilal(Tipperary, Mid

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Field, William

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Arkwriglit, John Stanhope

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Amold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Connor, John (Kiltlane, N)

Ashley, W. W.

Fletcher, J. S.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Donnell. John (Mayo, S.)

Balcarres, Lord

Forstor, Henry William

O'Hare, Patrick

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

0'Kelly,James(Roscommon, N.

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Ginnell, L.

O'Malley, William

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Haddock, George R.

O'Mara James

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Halpin, J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Beach, Hon. MichaelHugh Hicks

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

O'Shee, James John

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

Boland, John

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hayden, John Patrick

Power, Patrick Joseph

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hazleton, Richard

Rawlinson, Joim Frederick P.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Heaton, John Henniker

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Helmsley, Viscount

Redmond, William (Clare)

Bull, Sir William James

Hervey, F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Burdett-Coutta, W.

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Roche. John (Galway, East)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hogan, Michael

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Houston, Robert Paterson

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Carlile, E. Hiklred

Hunt, Rowland

Scott, Sir S. (Marvlobone, W.)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Cave, George

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton)

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.

Keswick, William

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kilbride, Denis .

Sullivan, Donal

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

King, Sir HenrySeymourf Hull)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(0x'fdUniv

Cecil.Lord R. (Marvlebone, E.)

Line-Fox, G. R.

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

Claney, John Joseph

Law, Andrew 15onar (Dulwich

Thornton, Percy 11.

Cochrane, Hon. Thrw. H. A. E.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Tumour, Viscount

Cogan, Denis J.

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

C rbett, A. Camton (Glasgow)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Lundon, W.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

MaeVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

M'lver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Craik, Sir Henry

M'Kean, John

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Croan, Eugene

M'Killop, W.

Wyndham, Ht. Hon. George

Cullinan, J.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Young, Samuel

Delany, William

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Younger, George

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay(Galway)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Meagher, Michael

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Donelan, Captain A.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Mooney, J. J.

Du Cros, Harvey

Murphy, John

Question put accordingly, " That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Armitage, R.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Adkins, W. Ryland

Asrhton, Thomas Gair

Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Agnew, George William

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Barker, John

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Astbury, John Meir

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Alden, Percy

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Barnard, E.B.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

The Committee divided:— Ayes, 311; Noes, 146. (Division List No. 204.)

Beale, W. P.

Everett, R. Lacey

Lewis, John Herbert

Beauchamp. E.

Fenwick, Charles

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

Ferens, T. R.

Lough, Thomas

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Lupton, Arnold

Beck, A. Cecil

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Bellairs, Carlvon

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Benn, W. (T'wr HamlotsS, Geo.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Bennett, E. N.

Fullerton, Hugh

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Berridge, T. H. D.

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S.

Maclean, Donald

Bertram, Julius

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Gill, A. H.

M'Cullum, John M.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herb, John

M'Crae, George

Billson, Alfred

Glendinning, R. G.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Laren, SirC. B. (Leicester)

Black, Alexander Win.(Banff)

Gooeh George Peabody

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire)

Grant, Corrie

M'Micking, Major G.

Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Maddison, Frederick

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Mallet, Charles E.

Brace, William

Griffith, Ellis J.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Bramsdon, T. A.

Grove, Archibald

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Branch, James

Gulland, John W.

Marnhara, F. J.

Brigg, John

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Massie, J.

Bright, J. A.

Hall. Frederick

Menzies, Walter

Brocklehurst, W D.

Hardie J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Brodie, H. C.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Brooke, Stopford

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Mond, A.

Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes.,Leigh)

Harmsworth, R.L.(Caith'ss-sh)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Bryee, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

Hart- Davies, T.

Montagu, E. S.

Bryoe, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Montgomery, H. G-

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Harwood, George

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Morrell, Philip

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

Hedges, A. Paget

Morse, L. L.

Bylea, William Pollard

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Murray, James

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.

Myer, Horatio

Causton, Rt. Hn. RiehardKnight

Henry, Charles S.

Napier, T. B.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon. S.)

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Nicholls, George

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Higham, John Sharp

Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncast'r)

Clarke. C. Goddard

Hobart, Sir Robert

Norman, Henry

Cleland, J. W.

Hodge, John

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Clough, W.

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Nuttall, Harry

Coats, Sir T. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Paul, Herbert

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Collins, Sir W.J.(S.Pancras, W.)

Horninian, Emslie John

Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)

Cooper, G. J.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Perks, Robert William

Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd

Hyde, Clarendon

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke)

Cory, Clifford John

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Jackson, R. S.

Pollard, Dr.

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Jardine, Sir J.

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Cremer, William Randal

Jenkins, J.

Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

Crosfield, A. H.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Crossley, William J.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.

Davies, D. (Montgomery Co.)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Radford, G. H.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jowett, F. W.

Raphael, Herbert H.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Kekewich, Sir George

Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')

Diekinsou, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Rees, J. D.

Dobson, Thomas W.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Kendall, Athelstan

Duncan, C.(Barrow-inFurness)

Laidlaw, Robert

Rsnton, Major Leslie

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'n)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rickett, J. Compton

Dunne, Maj. E. Martin(Walsall)

Lambert, George

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lamont, Norman

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Leese, SirJoseph F.(Accrington)

Robertson, SirG, Scott(Bradf'rd

Elihank, Master of

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

Robinson, S.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Levy, Maurice

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

646

647

Roe, Sir Thomas

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wason, Eugene(Claekmannan)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Rowlands, J.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Waterlow. D. S.

Runciman, Walter

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Wedgwood. Josiah C.

Russell, T. W.

Summerbell, T.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Whitehead, Rowland

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Taylor. Theodore C. (Radcliffe

Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)

Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)

Teimant, SirEdward(Salisbury

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Scott, A.H.(Ashton underLyne)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wiles, Thomas

Sears, J. E.

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Seddon, J.

Thomasson, Franklin

Williams, Llewelyn(Caimarthea

Shackleton, David James

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

Williams, Osmond(Merioneth

Shaw, Chas. Edward (Stafford)

Tomkinson, James

Wills. Arthur Walters

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Wilson, Hon.(' H.W.(Hull, W.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Toulmin, George

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Simon, John Allsebrook

Ure, Alexander

Wilson, W.T. (Westhoughton)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Verney, F. W.

Winfrey, R.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Vivian, Henry

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Snowdon, P.

Wallace, Robert

Woodhouse, SirJT(Henrdersf'd

Soares, Ernest J.

Walsh, Stephen

Yoxall, James Henry

Spicer, Sir Albert

Walters, John Tudor

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds, S.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

Stewart-Smith, D.(Kendal)

Wardle, George J.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Cullinan, J.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Ambrose, Robert

Delany, William

Lundoti, W.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Dolan, Charles Joseph

Maopherson, .J. T.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Donelan, Captain A.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Arnold-Forster, RtHnHughO.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)

Ashley, W. W.

Du Cros, Harvev

M'Kean, John

Aubrey-Fletchor, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Duffy, William J.

M'Killop, W.

Balcarres, Lord

Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan

Magnus, Sir Philip

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.

Fell, Arthur

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Field, William

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Meagher, Michael

Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Mildmay. Francis Bingham

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Fletcher, J. S.

Mooney, J. J.

Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

Flynn, James Christopher

Murphy, John

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Forster, Henry William

Nield, Herbert

Boland, John

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Nolan, Joseph

Bowles, G. Stewart

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

Boyle, Sir Edward

Ginnell, L.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Bridgeinan, W. Clive

Haddock, George R.

O'Connor, James(W7ieklow,W.)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Halpin, J.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Bull, Sir William James

Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hay, Hon. Claude George

O'Hare, Patrick

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Curlile, E. Hildred

Hazleton, Richard

O'Kelly, James(Roscomnion, N-

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Heaton, John Henniker

O'Malley, William

Cave, George

Helmsley, Viscount

O'Mara, James

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.WT.

Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS, Edm'ds.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

O'Shee, James John

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Hogan, Michael

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Houston, RobertPaterson

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Clancy, John Joseph

Hunt, Rowland

Power, Patrick Joseph

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Cogan, Denis J.

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Keswick, William

Redmond, William (Clare)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Kilbride, Denis

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall}

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

King, SirHenrySeymour(Hull)

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Craik, Sir Henry

Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham)

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Crean, Eugene

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin, S.

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

648

649

Starkey, John R.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Sullivan, Donal

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Young, Samuel

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(OxfdUniv.

White, Patrick (Mcath, North)

Youngor, George

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Thornton, Percy M.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

TELLERS FOR THR NOES— Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentin.

Turnour, Viscount

Wolff, Gustav Wilhulm

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read a second time."
MR. MACVEAGHwho had a Motion upon the Paper " That tile Bill be read a second time upon this day three months," said the House had recently adopted an Instruction to the Committee in connection with another Bill of this Company, and it was rumoured that the Company intended to flout the decision of the House. They were to hold a meeting to-morrow for the purpose of considering the matter. It was obvious that the House ought to know the decision of the Company before it proceeded with the consideration of this Bill, and accordingly he moved the adjournment of the debate. The Bill could be set down on Wednesday, and meantime it could be seen what arrangements were made.
MR. WILLIAM REDMONDseconded.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the debate be now adjourned."— (Mr. MacVeagh.)
SIR E. CARSONsaid he only rose to reply to one observation made by the lion. Member to the effect that the Great Northern Railway Company of Ireland were threatening to flout the decision of this House. There was not the slightest foundation for the suggestion. When the Second Reading of the other Bill was carried an Instruction was moved throwing certain obligations upon the Company. The Company were quite within their
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rights to say whether they would accept those obligations or not, and, as he stated at the time, they would have to consider whether under the circumstances they would proceed with that Bill or not. Nobody had any right to say that they intended to flout the decision of the House, and indeed that was the last thing they intended to do.
MR. WOLFFappealed to the hon. Member who moved the adjournment not to persist in the Motion, on the ground that this was a very important Bill to the North of Ireland. The session was passing away rapidly and unless they got the Second Reading of the Bill to-day they might not be able to get the measure through. He submitted that there was no reason why the Second Reading should not be proceeded with at once. When the Instruction to the Committee which would have to consider the other Bill of this Company was brought forward, they very much objected to it, but the railway company were considering whether under the circumstances they would oppose it any further. The hon. Member had paid that this Bill could be set down for Wednesday and in the meantime arrangements could be made by the board of directors in Belfast to carry out the negotiations which were proceeding. But those who were accustomed to negotiations between a railway board and the opponents of a: Bill must know that they could not be carried out in one or two days. The directors would have to come over from Ireland and would have to consult their advisers, and considerable time would be lost by the negotiations. Under these circumstances he thought he was right in asking that the Motion for adjournment should be withdrawn, and the Bill read a second time.
MR. JOHN REDMONDwished to know whether the hon. Gentleman was prepared to accept the Instruction passed the other night on the previous Bill if this Bill were passed.
MR. WOLFFsaid it was still a matter of negotiation between the promoters and their opponents. He could not accept it at that moment.
MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that was a conclusive reason for the adjournment of the debate. Since the House came to a decision the other night the railway company, through their agents, had threatened to drop the first Bill. If they dropped the first Bill, the Nationalist Members would object to their getting the second Bill. It therefore seemed a reasonable course! for them to adopt j to adjourn the debate in order that they might sec what the result of the negotiations was.
Question put, and agreed to.
Debate to be resumed upon Wednesday.

LABOURERS (IRELAND) ADVANCES.
Order for the House to be put into Committee read.
MR. CLAUDE HAYand other hon. Members objected to its being taken.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRVCE,)said the Bill to which the Resolution referred had been agreed to by all Parties, and this was a formal stage of it. Under the circumstances, as all the Conservative Members from Ireland supported the Bill, he would appeal to hon. Members not to persist in their objection.
MR. CLAUDE HAYstill objected.
MR. T. L. CORBETTappealed to his hon. friend not to persist in his objection, as the Bill was unopposed.
MR. CLAUDE HAYdeclined to with-draw his objection, and the Committee stood over till Tuesday.

MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL.
Order for the House to be put into Committee read.
MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid he did not wish at that
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late hour to ask the House to go into Committee on this Bill, but he wished to make a personal statement with j regard to it. Certain Amendments which altered the phraseology of the Bill had been suggested, and it was also suggested that those words should be referred to the Law Officers of the Crown. In accordance with a promise given on a former occasion he had consulted the Law Officers, and they had helped him very much. Acting upon the suggestions which had been made, he was willing to omit certain words from the Bill and to replace them by words taken from the Food and Drugs Act. He would not mention those words now, but he hoped to be able to place them upon the Order Paper tomorrow.
MR. LUPTONappealed to the hon. Member to accept the Amendments which he and others had put down and thus facilitate the progress of the Bill.
MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid that as a personal appeal had been made to him he might be allowed to say that though he was willing to accept any reasonable Amendment, it would not be his fault and he would not be responsible if they were not discussed. Some of the Amendments which the hon. Member had put down had not to meet his (Mr. O'Connor's) opposition, but the very much more serious opposition of His Majesty's Government.
NEW WRIT.
New Writ for the county of Tyrone (East Tyrone). Order (6th July), for resuming, upon Thursday, the Adjourned Debate on the Motion relating to the New Writ for the county of Tyrone (East Tyrone), read, and discharged.— (Colonel Saunderson.)
Motion withdrawn.
And, it being after half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 1.
Adjourned at twelve minutes before Twelve o'clock.

EARLDOM OF NORFOLK.
Committee for Privileges met: A witness examined: Council further heard on behalf of the Duke of Norfolk: Council heard in reply on behalf of the claimant, Lord Mowbray: Committee adjourned to Thursday next.
The Lord Kenlis (M. Headfort), took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with; Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation; Oldham and Saddleworth District Tramways (Abandonment).
Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Tottenham and Edmonton Gas Bill; Committee (which stands appointed for To-morrow) put off sine die.
Dover Harbour (Works, &c.) Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
London and South Western Railway Bill; Manchester Corporation Bill; Cheltenham Gas Bill; Metropolitan Water Board Bill; Peterborough Gas Bill; North East London Railway Bill; Huddersfield Corporation Bill; Cardiff; Gas Bill; London County Buildings Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
South Lincolnshire Water Bill. Brought from the Commons. Read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
Newtownards Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Great Central and Lancashire, Derbyshire, and East Coast Railways Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
Manchester Churches Bill [H.L.]; Penllwyn Railway and Road Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Metropolitan Railway Bill. Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to,
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill; Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of Working Classes) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill. Moved, That the order made on March 26th last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after June 19th next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2a; agreed to. Bills read 2a accordingly.
Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of Working Classes) Bill. Committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill; Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill. Committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Order of the clay for the Second Reading read.
Moved, " That the Bill be now read 2a." —(Lord Welby.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, although in form this is a private Bill it is in essence a public Bill, and a public Bill of a very important character. The London County Council is the first municipal body in the kingdom, and its expenditure is by a very long way the first municipal expenditure, and this

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Bill affords the only opportunity to your Lordships of passing in review the expenditure of the County Council and their proposed borrowing powers during the year. I am very glad that the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees determined that this Bill should be moved by some one who was responsible for it and who knew its details, because I think your Lordships will all be of opinion that, seeing the large increase of debt and the large increase of expenditure of the County Council, it is very desirable that these matters should be explained to your Lordships in detail.
I must confess that I was a little taken aback when I found that my noble friend had simply moved the Second Reading of the Bill as if it were an ordinary private Bill. Your Lordships probably thought—I certainly did—that a Bill which contemplates giving borrowing powers amounting to more than £12,000,000 deserved some explanation of its details from the Chairman of the Finance Committee of the London County Council, but since my noble friend, who, of course, has perfect discretion in the matter, has elected not to say anything in regard the contents of the Bill, I hope he will at all events favour us with some remarks in reply when the debate on the Bill has closed. In the meantime I must ask your Lordships to pardon me for endeavouring, in perhaps an imperfect manner, to explain the Bill to the House.
Your Lordships will find the contents of the Bill explained in the Schedule. Part I. of the Schedule contains the estimated requirements for capital expenditure by the Council from April 1st, 1906, to September 30th, 1907, a period of eighteen months; and it refers to expenditure incurred under Acts of Parliament which have sanctioned various undertakings, and with regard to which the proceedings of Parliament are now almost purely administrative in allowing the expenditure as it is required from year to year. Part II. of the Schedule— and this is, in my opinion, the most important part—contains the estimated capital requirements upon Bills of the present session, and the amount which is required up to September 30th, 1907.
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Part III. of the Schedule is a matter of less importance. It deals with sums which may be authorised by the Treasury beyond the amounts limited by the sections of this Bill, a total of £550,000; and Part IV. of the Schedule contains the amounts estimated to be required for loans to other municipalities, with regard to which the London County Council act virtually as bankers. Altogether the Bill confers borrowing powers to the extent of £12,224,000.
I shall occupy your Lordships' attention for a very few moments with regard to i Part I. of the Schedule. There are some undertakings of the County Council which have been completed, and which, therefore, of course, do not appear in this Bill, and with regard to which I cannot say whether the expenditure kept within the original estimates or not. There are in this Part a good many other undertakings which either have lately been begun or at all events are not very far advanced, and with regard to which, of course, there is no revised estimate. But with regard to the headings which represent undertakings approaching completion, if your Lordships will follow them down with me you will see that in a considerable number of cases, certainly in the majority of cases, a revised estimate has become necessary. Under heading No. 3, £155,000 has been turned into £180,000; under No. 7, £436,000 has been turned into £447,000; under No. 8, £484,000 has been turned into £535,000; under No. 10, £219,000 has been turned into £414,500; and under No. 13 £4,864,000 has been turned into £5,136,000. That, my Lords, with the one exception of steamboats, ends the record of the undertakings which are approaching completion.
The word steamboats, I am told, has become a sort of melancholy term in London finance. The estimate there of £280,000 has become £304,000, and I do hope and trust that this revised estimate is the last estimate on capital account which Parliament is going to be called upon to sanction. These London steamboats are an extraordinary instance of failure of municipal calculations. I pass from their original cost, which, after all, is not so important.

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When we come to their working we have already arrived at this point, that up to the present we have lost one-third— 30 per cent.—of the whole capital. I am now taking the estimates of the London County Council, and the estimates which Lord Welby presented to the Council lately. I will not go back to all the prophecies which were made with regard to the future of this undertaking. The matter came before two Committees of Parliament, before whom the most sanguine calculations were laid. The Chairman of the Highways Committee of the London County Council said that in his opinion it was almost certain that in the first year the steamboats would pay the £90,000 which was necessary in order to establish an equilibrium. There was a statement which proceeded from certain trade unions, that 15,000 trade unionists would travel by these steamboats every morning. With regard to that latter statement, the only commentary that it is necessary to make is that, after a brief experience, no steamboats now starts earlier than 8 o'clock in the morning.
In the same way the whole service has been altered. It was originally a service which was to run from Greenwich to Hammersmith, but now it has been abandoned further than Chelsea, and the portion between Chelsea and Hammersmith left to the private company; but it does not go on for the whole year, even over the diminished course. From April 1st to September 31st there is now to be a fifteen minutes service from Greenwich to Chelsea, but from October 1st to March 31st there is to be a twenty minutes service from Greenwich only so far as Blackfriars. Therefore, my Lords, the service has ceased to be what you may call a service up the river. The actual deficit to March 31st last was nearly £51,000; the estimated deficit for this year is £52,000; and I observe that the other day it was pointed out by Lord Welby that in four weeks £11,000 had represented the expense while £5,400 had been the receipts, his only remark upon that being that in his opinion the receipts from the steamboat .service for the period referred to showed a fair proportion of the cost of working the steamboats for the year. If that be
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so now, I leave it to your Lordships to judge for yourselves what will be the result when we get between October 1st and March 31st. Although it is a little thing, yet the number of accidents has been so great in managing these steamers that the cost of insuring them, which was only 35s. per £100 last year, has now been put up by the unfortunate insurance offices to £4.
I think I may now leave that matter and take your Lordships to Part II. of the Schedule. Your Lordships will observe the words in several places " if it becomes law." The expenditure here proposed is in virtue of certain proposals which have been laid before Parliament in Bills, and which have been under the consideration of the two Houses. I speak with same slight knowledge of this matter, because I myself have been sitting for nearly the last fortnight on a Committee which has had before it several of the Bills in this Schedule, and which has considered the London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill, and also the London County Council Building Bill. With regard to the Schedule, your Lordships will see that the estimates which appear are not estimates of the whole cost of any improvement. It is merely the Parliamentary estimate of the gross cost which is laid before Parliament—that means, I suppose, for this period of eighteen months up to September 30th, 1907. Taking No. 31, the Tramways and Improvements Bill, the figure which appears there is £043,000 for tramways and £73,000 for street improvements; in all, a total of £716,000. But, of course, your Lordships will not suppose for a moment that that is the cost of the tramways undertakings. The total cost of the tramways undertakings at present in progress is, in round figures, £11,000,000, of which nearly £5,000,000 has been expended up to the present time and £6,100,000 remains to be expended.
The most important tramway laid before us this year was the proposed tramway coming from the other side of Westminster Bridge and going round the Embankment and so crossing over to Blackfriars, and we thought that upon the whole it was a desirable tramway to make. Further, with regard to the tramways as a whole, we thought

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there was very fair reason to think that in the end they might turn out a successful undertaking. But, at the same time, of course, we felt that great caution was desirable, because the County Council have not half completed their outlay. The Finance Committee of the County; Council are of the same opinion. This is what the Finance Committee said—
" The Finance Committee agree with the Highways Committee that it is desirable to complete this work—"
that is, the whole system of tramways in London, north and south—
" as soon as possible, but the Council would do well to bear this heavy charge in mind and not to entertain fresh schemes of expenditure, however desirable, until we have met the largest part of this expenditure."
Lord Welby will remember those words. I may say—but this is merely a remark in passing—with regard to the way in which the capital cost of the tramways is made up, it appears that whenever a tramway is to be laid down near which an improvement can be made, the custom I has been to make the improvement earlier than would otherwise have been the case. It does not follow, of course, that the improvement would be made for a great many years, but in these circumstances it is made immediately and the cost is divided, generally speaking, in this way: one-third to the tram-way, one-third to the improvement, and a considerable portion is found by the borough council in whose district the improvement takes place. I had a Return made out for me by the Controller of the County Council showing the effect of this practice. He mentioned in his evidence before the Committee nineteen cases in which it had been pursued, and made out a Return showing that out of an outlay of £1,056,000, £291,000 had been paid by the local authority, £101,000 through the improvements account of the London County Council, and £364,000 through the tramways account. I merely mention that to show your Lordships on what very favourable terms the capital outlay on tramways is being computed, because, of course, if it were some private company laying these tramways and not the county council, the private
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company would have to pay the whole of the £1,056,000, or very nearly that amount.
Passing from the tramways I come to the Electric Supply Bill. Your Lordships will see that for the acquisition of land, erection of generating stations laying of mains, etc., etc., a sum of £2,500,000 was the estimate made in the Bill. I thought at first it meant that that was the sum which would be required for this year, and as attention had been called to this by a witness, I asked him whether that was not so, and he replied that it was the total cost of the scheme put toward in the London County Council's Bill in the other House of Parliament. Well, my Lords, all I can say is—and I am speaking with some experience, because I sat for a great many weeks last year on the Administrative Supply Bill, which was a private company's Bill—that I am positive that it is quite impossible to create a satisfactory system of electric supply for London, or anything approaching to a satisfactory system, for less than a sum which may run to from £8,000,000 to £11,000,000. What is the meaning of this estimate of £2,500,000? This Bill has been a matter of very considerable controversy, I believe, in the London County Council, and in November last, when the matter was first taken into consideration, the Finance Committee said that they had no data as to the limitation, the scope, or the cost of the scheme and, in fact, that they really had no figures at all to go upon. After a very considerable debate the matter was adjourned in order to enable a Bill to be drawn up which could be fully discussed by the County Council, with the result that this Bill was introduced with this estimate of £2,500,000. It came before the Finance Committee. Let me read to your Lordships what they said of it—
" We have had before us certain estimates of working costs and the probable growth of demand for electricity, but the figures are at present only of a provisional character, and we are advised that the publication of any estimates at the present stage might prejudice the Council's case before a Committee of Parliament. We are consequently placed in a position of difficulty, because while we feel that the Council ought to have before it some means of judging as to the financial prospects

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of the scheme, we are unable for the reasons stated to submit any figures to the Council."
Further on they said—
" We cannot help thinking that the Council ought, before embarking capital in such an enterprise, to have some further security than it will apparently possess."
And subsequently they said—
" Whatever conclusion may hereafter be arrived at as to the probable ultimate financial results of such as undertaking as the Council may obtain power to establish, we are of opinion that the Council must face the probability that during the early years the undertaking will show a deficiency which will have to be made good out of the rates, because from its nature some years must elapse before a sufficiently large amount of business can be secured to make the concern profitable."
The filial conclusion in the Finance Committee's Report was as follows—
"In conclusion, and looking to all the circumstances, we are impressed with the fact that financial risks are inseparable from an enterprise of this kind covering so large an area."
The London County Council proposed not only to supply the whole of the county of London, but a number of towns in a variety of counties outside—
"and that if such risks mature, the burden will fall entirely on the ratepayers of London. Bearing this in mind, we are of opinion that if, on the grounds of general policy, the Council should finally decide to promote the Bill, every endeavour should the made to make arrangements with the existing undertakers for the supply 10 them by the Council of electrical energy in bulk."
Do your Lordships consider that that is an approval of this scheme by the Finance Committee of the County Council? I should say that it was a series of very serious warnings to the Council as to what they were proposing to embark upon; but, nevertheless, the Council proceeded to vote, and in spite of the fact that Lord Welby, Sir Francis Mowatt, and all the other persons who are chiefly responsible for the finance of the Council went so far as to vote, I think almost for the first time, against their Party, the proposal was carried by sixty-six to thirty-eight, There was not in the Bill one single obligation of any sort or kind on the County Council. There was no obligation to supply electricity to anybody or any corporation; nothing except to proceed by agreement. There was not a single word about any maximum rates or charges, and not one word about charge
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of any kind or sort. I do not understand why they should put £2,500,000 in the scheme any more than £1,500,000, or any other figure. The object of the Bill was quite clear. I take it in connection with their action in the last session of Parliament. The intention of the Bill was to occupy the ground, to make it impossible for any private company to come in, because once power had been given to them to supply the London area, the result would be that if any private person came forward and proposed to supply even at a much lower rate we should immediately be told, " You must protect your own rates and you cannot allow any competition with the London County Council." I see there is a recommendation that the London County Council should bring this Bill forward again. A year off is a long time, and we do not know what may happen; but if the Bill ever reaches this House I hope the noble Earl at the Table, at all events, will take care that very stringent inquiry is made as to the charges sanctioned, and that there shall be a maximum rate. Moreover, I venture to think that the maximum ought not to exceed ·75 per unit, which was the price at which the company offered last year to supply electricity.
I pass to No. 33—the London County Buildings Bill. Your Lordships will see a sum of £655,000 which appears as the total Parliamentary estimate. It must not be supposed in this case either that this is the total outlay. The total outlay is £1,700,000. That may seem a large sum; but I am giving my own opinion perfectly frankly when I say that it did not seem to me, looking at the whole of the circumstances of the case, that the plan of the London County Council was a bad one, and so far as we on the Committee are concerned, we have recommended your Lordships to approve of it. But this I do say, that when you are laying out nearly £2,000,000 on buildings you ought to be additionally careful as to how you enter upon other costly undertakings, and you ought to consider your finance with reference to your budget as a whole and not simply with regard to the proceedings of independent Committees, every one of whom considers that their own duty and their

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own sphere is the most important and ought to be attended to whatever may happen to the rest.
With regard to this scheme I have only one remark to make. At the present time I believe there are 1,998 clerks to be provided for, and that within the next two or three years there will be 3,300. I merely suggest to your Lordships that if Parliament entrusts to the London County Council the electric supply of London, and if, in addition, as I see the President of the Local Government Board foreshadows, Parliament also makes the London County Council the body to regulate the traffic of the Metropolis, county councillors will be absolutely unable to fulfil their duties. Indeed, I believe they are not very well able to perform them now, for no less than twenty six are Members of Parliament. How one man can be an efficient member of the London County Council and at the same time efficiently discharge his duties in the House of Commons is beyond my understanding. But if, in addition, they are to have these other duties thrown upon them, then your Lordships will find yourselves called upon before very long to furnish another site, the magnitude of which it is impossible to imagine.
In conclusion, there are one or two remarks which, speaking both from general knowledge and also from experience of the last fortnight, I should like to make with regard to the way in which the London County Council do their business. In the first place I venture to hope that the London County Council will in future go more carefully and more fully into the estimates of undertakings before embarking upon them. That is not my remark; it has been made over and over again by the noble Lord opposite, the Chairman of the Finance Committee of the London County Council, and by the Finance Committee itself. In the next place, I hope the London County Council will pay more attention to Lord Welby and to the Finance Committee than they have hitherto done. The Act constituting the London County Council stated—
" Every County Council shall from time to lime appoint a Finance Committee to regulate and control the finance of the county."
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My Lords, how has that enactment been observed by the London County Council? Why, they have disregarded it from the very first. The late Lord Lingen was the first chairman of the Finance Committee, and he suggested that the committee ought to occupy with regard to London County Council finance very much the same sort of position as the Treasury occupies with regard to Imperial finance. The London County Council proceeded to rule that down. They said that it was the duty of the Finance Committee to report to them within reasonable terms, I think the words were, what they ought to do, but they maintained that, having done that, the duty of the Finance Committee was performed, and that it was not in any way the business of the Council to give way to the Finance Committee. The consequence has been that since the establishment of the County Council the Finance Committee has been overridden times without mention.
I go further than that. I see a statement in the preamble of this Bill which appears to me, under the circumstances, rather difficult to justify. It is stated that all the estimates contained in the Schedule to this Bill—
" have been considered and approved by the Finance Committee of the Council, in accordance with the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1888."
Your Lordships will remember what I read to the House just now from the report of the Finance Committee. Can any person say that that estimate was approved by the Finance Committee? This question has arisen before the Committee upon which I have been sitting during the last fortnight. What the Finance Committee does, as stated by a witness, is this. The Committee never approves of an estimate. What it does is to make remarks. If it absolutely disapproves, then it disapproves. I dare say that may be quite correct, but I do venture to hope that the noble Lord opposite, if he really acquiesces in this, will take a little higher line with his Council and will point out to them the importance of the Act of Parliament. If the Finance Committee report again as they did in this case upon any proposal I hope he will not allow it to

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appear in the preamble that the estimate has been approved by the Finance Committee. It is to be hoped that in preparing schemes the London County Council will consider them together and not simply on their merits as apart from each other and without any reference to the total amount of their budget. At present there are a set of independent committees. They put forward these measures in the London County Council, debates take place upon them, and they are approved or the reverse, but there is never, so far as I can see, any bringing together of these matters with the total cost which the improvements are going to entail if made. The result is that a very large expenditure is often sanctioned without anyone being distinctly aware of what is being done.
There are a great many things in this world which are desirable. We should all like to have everything perfect, but it is impossible for any corporation or any individual to make all the improvements that are wanted at one time, and what a sensible private person, at all events, does in these matters is to consider the length of his purse and what he can afford, and I think the London County Council would do well to do the same. I will, in conclusion, quote the words of my noble friend Lord Welby, and I do not think I can conclude better than by reading them to your Lordships. The noble Lord said—
" He was very jealous of the credit of the Council, and his jealousy led him to one opinion—that at the present time the Council was in danger of overstraining its credit. They ought to be alive to that danger, as their credit ought to be the first after that of the State, and he could not say that at present it held that position. The large propositions for expenditure which came from various committees showed that the Council was not alive to the danger of overstraining its credit. He wanted to justify the grounds of his statement by a reference to the capital commitments of the Council. During the last few years many millions had been spent on street improvements, involving heavy borrowings. The Strand and Westminster improvements cost £7,000,000. Those schemes would, perhaps, in time provide recoupment of the cost, but for some time the ratepayers had to bear the burden. While he was a zealous adherent of the tramway policy of the Council, and while lie believed the time would come when the tramways would pay their way and provide large profits, he could not help saying that the chairman of the Highways Committee, Mr. J. Allen Baker, was an expensive luxury to
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London, and the millions which he asked for from the money market were, again, a great strain upon the credit of the Council…The Council had chosen at that time to commit itself to a work which some time would be perfectly legitimate but not so now—nearly £2,000,000 for a new County Hall, involving another heavy call on the money market. Again, it was likely, in view of the change of Government, that immense schemes like the Port of London Bill might be brought forward at any moment."
And Lord Welby went on to say—
" The policy by which the Council passed scheme after scheme was a strange one. In one year the Council passed a scheme involving huge expenditure, put it aside, forgot all about it, and looked upon it as if the thing were done. The next year fresh schemes were produced, and the process repeated."
It is unnecessary for me to add anything to that; and I have to thank your Lordships for listening so patiently to what I am afraid has been a rather tiresome speech.
LORD WELBY: My Lords, my noble friend has brought a very grave indictment against the finance of the London County Council. He has, I venture to think, somewhat coloured the picture, but at the same time I make no remonstrances on that point. I am only too glad that the finance of a great body like the London County Council should be submitted to review, and I believe a review, if it be a fair review, in Parliament is the best restraint, the best caution, which a large public body like the London County Council can receive. Though my noble friend is perhaps somewhat hard upon the London County Council, I think your Lordships will agree that no critic more competent could be found.
There is one point which I am sure your Lordships will consider with fairness. My noble friend has quoted rather largely from remarks which I have made at different times. May I point out to the House that the Finance Committee of the London County Council is placed in a position of considerable difficulty. My noble friend, comparing small things with great, has pointed out the the Finance Committee of the County Council should occupy something of the same position with regard to the expenditure of the county of London as the Treasury does with

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regard to the expenditure of the State. But may I call my noble friend's attention to this point, that the Treasury, in its remonstrances with and representations to the other great Departments of the State, makes those remonstrances and representations within closed doors. Any question arising between the Treasury and the great spending Departments is decided by the Cabinet, and the decision goes out to the public as the decision of the Government as a whole. Unfortunately for the Finance Committee of the County Council, we are not in that position. According to the form which the administration of the County Council takes, the different committees present their reports to the Council, and the Finance Committee, either in presenting the estimate or in making their own report, make a representation which is printed in the agenda of the Council, and the warnings and representations which they think it right to make to the Council are thus published to the world. I think your Lordships will, in fairness, admit that that places the Finance Committee of the County Council in a very difficult position if they are really to do their duty in the manner my noble friend thinks they ought, for they have to bear in mind the use that will be made of any remarks they think right to make to the Council. My remarks are made more pointed at the present moment because I am told that in Committees of the other House of Parliament the reports of the Finance Committee have been used freehand largely, not in the way of ordinary, criticism, but by interested opponents, by opponents who have legitimate interests against the Council's scheme, to upset the Council's policy. I think your Lordships will admit that I have some justification for bringing before you that difficulty under which the Finance Committee and its chairman work. Your Lordships will notice that in such cases as this the ordinary warnings which the Finance Committee give to the Council are magnified into a representation that the Finance Committee are opposing the Council and entirely disapproving of the policy of the Council. The difficulty which the Finance Committee feel in consequence is extremely great.
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I remember when the noble Viscount who was lately Chancellor of the Exchequer thought right to point out in Parliament the dangers of the large increase of expenditure. I do not think the noble Viscount would have been at all disposed to do so had it been supposed that in giving such a warning as that he was opposing the finance of the Government of which he was a member, or that he was making it appear that the financial position of the country was unsound. Following somewhat on the same lines, I venture to point out to your Lordships that the Finance Committee, when they bring these questions to the notice of the Council, are not necessarily condemning the policy of the Council or representing to the Council that their finance is in an unsound condition. On the contrary, the proper function of the Finance Committee is to be what has been called the watch-dog of the Council. That is to say, their business is to warn the Council when they think they are entering upon any course in which some restraint is necessary. And here let me say that I agree with my noble friend opposite in many of the remarks he has made. I think it is the business of the Finance Committee to point out when the Council are entering on too large schemes and incurring a large amount of expenditure under too many heads at the same time, it is their duty to impress upon the Council that some prudence, some restraint, in these matters is desirable. In doing that I venture to point out that the Finance Committee are only performing their strict duty, and I do not think that words that may be used in the discharge of that duty ought fairly to be turned against the person whose duty it is to utter them, as if he were condemning or finding fault with the policy of the Council generally.
My noble friend has noticed many points, but on a great many of them I think there is no material difference between us. I cannot entirely agree, however, with his remarks upon the steamboat service. Free comment has been made upon that undertaking for many months past, both inside the Council and by the public, and I for one certainly should not come down to your Lordships to represent that as, up to the present time, a fortunate experiment on the part of the London County Council. At the

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same time, I would ask your Lordships, in fairness, to remember that we have only the facts of a broken period of ten months before us, and although I cannot say that I am hopeful on the subject, yet at the same time I think that the Council may be fairly granted a longer period than that before it can be said positively that the experiment is of a kind to merit the ridicule which my noble friend poured upon it.
With regard to the next point—the division of the cost of widening streets between the tramways undertaking and the improvements account—I may say that this matter has received and is receiving the attention of the Council. The charging of one-third in the manner in which it has been carried out up to the present has not been thought a just or right division, and the Finance Committee are now I engaged with the other committees concerned in endeavouring to lay down principles by which the partition will be made in a more satisfactory manner.
As far as the tramways are concerned, my noble friend did not find fault, I think, with their administration generally or with the results. I would venture to go a little further. From what I have, been able to learn, I am most sanguine about the outcome of the tramway i undertaking. During the comparatively short time that the tramways have been in our possession a sum of £293,000 has been paid over to the rates; no less , than £600,000 has been put aside out of profits to sinking fund: and if you add to that a sum of between £100,000 and £200,000 for depreciation, and bear in mind that every expense that can fairly be put against the undertaking has been paid off, I do not think that the critics of the County Council act fairly if they represent that that is in any respect a I failure. Your Lordships are generally somewhat suspicious of what I may call municipal trading. As far as the London County Council are concerned, putting aside for one moment the steamboat experiment, the Council have never undertaken more than two experiments—oneis the tramways, about which I have just given the results, and they are not, I think, results of which the County Council I need be ashamed; and the other ex-
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periment is in connection with the housing of the working classes.
The housing problem has been taken up as a one of the first duties of the country by every class and every section of the community. In dealing with it the London County Council laid down as a precedent condition that they would undertake no scheme for re-housing the working classes that involved a charge upon the rates. In order to give effect to that decision they resolved that they would pass no scheme for re-housing the working classes unless they had an assurance from the Finance Committee that they believed it would be self-supporting. I may say, as a member of the Finance Committee, that I have had, in common with my colleagues considerable anxiety in giving that certificate, if I may call it so, but it has always been given after very careful consideration of the figures laid before us, and I am happy to say that the results, as far as we have them up to the present, show that in practically every case the order of the County Council that a charge should not be imposed upon the rates has been fulfilled. To be perfectly frank with your Lordships. I make one exception. It is an exception which proves the rule. During the time that these houses are being erected, and before any rent can be received in respect of them, the expenditure is bearing interest but brings back no return. A sum of about £40,000 under that heading has been inflicted on the ratepayers; on the other hand the surplusage, small as it is, because it is not the policy of the County Council to make a profit out of the working classes, has been sufficient very nearly to cover the sum fairly charged on the rates while the houses are in process of building.
The noble Earl also alluded to the Electric Power Bill. Here, again, the noble Earl has been rather severe upon me in respect of the words in which I laid the hesitation and doubts of the Finance Committee before the Council.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I intended to convey no imputation. I thought the words used by the noble Lord were excellent. All I said was

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that I hoped his deeds had been as good as his words.
LORD WELBY: I think that my words and the words of the Finance Committee were entirely justified. I have had a very long experience at the Treasury, and I certainly think that in matters of the same kind, letters from the Treasury to the great Departments would have been expressed in very much the same terms. But, as I have said, whatever the Finance Committee say unfortunately goes at once to the public and is made use of against the body who are receiving the advice. So far, I consider that the comments which were then made were justified, and did not mean that to the policy of the scheme the Finance Committee need have been opposed. We urged that the finance of the scheme should be carefully considered, and I imagine from what I have heard that its finance has been carefully examined and discussed in Committee of the other House.
With reference to the County Hall, there, again, I am not disposed to quarrel with my noble friend as to the manner in, which he has spoken of the desirability of what we call co-ordinating expenditure; I that is to say, when very large works have been undertaken, there is very fair and proper ground why the Council should hesitate before undertaking fresh works. An expenditure of £1,700,000 is a large one, but when the whole of the circum stances are considered I venture to think that the undertaking is by no means a uneconomical one, or one that is not very much called for. Certainly the outside criticism which I should apply to it would be this, that it is economical and desirable in itself, but it might be open to question I whether, considering the very large expenditure involved in the tramways, it might not have been postponed for a year or so.
As to the comment which my noble I friend made upon the preamble of the Bill, I think the statement is justified that the Bill had the approval of the Finance Committee. The fact of the matter is this. Capital expenditure is submitted to the Finance Committee, and I do not think the committee can escape the responsibility, when they have passed
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that expenditure, of what is involved in the word " approval." The Finance Committee are perfectly at liberty to make any comment they please upon the estimate so placed before them.
My noble friend has dwelt on the total amount which appears at the foot— £12,000,000. Unluckily—and this objection is not by any means confined to the County Council, for I remember perfectly well the same difficulty used to occur at the Treasury with regard to the provisions made for local loans—the people who estimate what they will want by way of loans always estimate largely. The gentlemen who used to come to the Treasury on behalf of the different Departments, stating what was wanted for different works, invariably estimated largely in excess of the amount they required, and I have known Chancellors of the Exchequer who were troubled at the amount which had to be placed in the Bills laid before Parliament because they knew those amounts would not be reached, while at the same time it was impossible for them to take the responsibility of cutting down that which had been put forward. The same thing, again in a minor way, occurs with us in the County Council. Large demands are made upon us which we are obliged to put into the Bill. There are no means of transferring a surplus on one head to meet a deficiency on another. All the compartments are watertight, and the consequence is that we have to make full provision. But with regard to this £12,000,000 may I give your Lordships the result of four years experience of these loans?. I will take the tour years from 1902 to 1905. We put into the Bill, after some pruning had taken place by the Finance Committee, on the average of the four years, £7,000,000. The actual expenditure on the average of those four years was exactly half that amount. I venture to call the attention of my noble friend opposite to this, because I think that, as a fair-minded man, he will at all events accept that as some modification of the remarks he made about the very large sum contained in this Bill.
I have been charged with making out that the finance of the County Council is unsound. Speaking for the Finance Committee I have not

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shrunk, by their advice and with their consent, from uttering the warnings, if I may call them so, to which, allusion has frequently been made, and I venture to think that in so doing I have not in any way made it appear that the finance of the County Council is unsound. Noble Lords are apt to regard it perhaps from too narrow a point of view, and in judging whether the finance of the Council has been on the whole soundly administered I like to take a somewhat larger view. When you look at the large amount of capital expenditure that has been laid out and take into consideration how much has been paid off, I think the result is directly creditable to theCountyCouncil. I am aware that the amount of the sinking fund is stated by Parliament, and, therefore, I am not claiming for the County Council more credit than it deserves. Let me take what I think your Lordships will agree to be one of the finest sites in Europe—the Embankment. The Embankment cost very nearly two millions and a quarter. At the present moment the action of the sinking fund has paid off 75 per cent, of that debt, and the present ratepayers are in possession of that magnificent work with only a quarter of the expenditure which was necessary to secure it for them yet to be paid. I turn to another point, and take the street improvements. Street improvements are to a great extent a matter of option. The sum of £24,000,000 has been laid out on street improvements. Of that no less than £13,000,000 has been paid off. Of all the cost of street improvements that has beenincurred 60percant has been paid off. Take the Holborn to Strand improvement. The excess was only caused by including a further site in the land which vas taken for the purpose of the improvement, and which was therefore outside the original estimate. I think your Lordships will agree that it is a very difficult tiling indeed to make an estimate of the amount required by such a site as that, and I think it reflects great credit on the expert officer, our valuer, when I say that I am informed on good authority that the acquisition of that very fine site is within the estimate which he originally laid before the Council, and which the Council sanctioned.
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On these grounds I do venture to think that there is good reason for saying that in its main lines the finance of the Council has been conducted on prudent principles. I will take another great work—the main drainage. The main drainage cost, altogether, over £9,000,000. Half of that sum has already been repaid. I think that when your Lordships criticise what has been done and express the opinion that the County Council occasionally try too much atone time, you ought to recollect what has been done. I am sure you wish to be fair to the County Council and give them credit for the good work that has beer, accomplished. I do not think your Lordships can be aware of the pressure which is put upon the County Council to incur expenditure. Much of the expenditure to which exception is taken by my noble friend has not so much originated within the walls of Spring Gardens itself as from pressure outside. I do not mean to say for a moment that the County Council ought not to be responsible for the decision it takes in such a matter, but let me say that both the Press and the public are very exacting. I will give one instance. Nothing has given us more difficulty on the County Council — I grieve to say it—than providing for the increasing number of lunatics. The number of fresh asylums that have hail to be built has been a very heavy call indeed on the finances of the county. Owing to their desire that the expenditure on new asylums should not be too heavy at one time, the Council erected temporary buildings at Colney Hatch Asylum. By a great misfortune a fire took place there. The Press, instead of understanding the reason which led to the temporary buildings, almost unanimously condemned us for not spending more money. We have to face this pressure which is put upon us from outside, and we have to do our best with regard to it. I do think that, considering the claims that are put upon us, considering the enormous amount of work, much of it having been handed on to us by Parliament, which we have to do, the County Council have not a bad record to show. I think they are able to show that they have done good work for London, and I

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venture also to say that, looking at their finance generally and the results of it, fair-minded men will agree that they have accomplished a great deal and in so doing, up to the present, at all events, have not put an undue strain on the finance of London.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, we are under a great obligation to my noble friend Lord Camperdown for having initiated this discussion, and I think it is only fair to say that, great as the expenditure of the London County Council has been, if it had not been for the moderating influence of the noble Lord who has just sat down the County Council's expenditure out of the rates would probably have been still higher. There are two points in his speech upon which I should like to say a word or two. In claiming for the tramway earnings a measure of relief for the rates he omitted to distinguish between the two tramway systems, that on the North and that on the South of the Thames. It so happened that when the London County Council took over the tramways a similar amount of money was involved in the northern tramways as in the southern tramways, and the profits were approximately equal. But the London County Council leased the tramways on one side of the river to a company and worked the tramways on the other side themselves.
There is a very interesting article in the Statist of this week which contains an exhaustive examination of the working of the tramways, and the main result is that, whereas the ratepayers have received £190,000 from the tramways which were leased they have only received £24,000 from the tramways which were worked by the London County Council themselves, and I cannot help thinking that it clearly follows that if the County Council had leased both systems instead of only one the ratepayers of London would have been about £170,000 better off at the present time than they are. Moreover, if a sufficient amount of the central charges, and for depreciation had been allowed, I doubt whether there would have been any profit at all. The amount of nominal profit which has been received from the system worked by the Council has been gradually diminishing until last year it came down to £4,000, and, if the deprecia-
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tion had been treated last year in the same way as it had been treated hitherto, instead of there being a small profit there would have been a loss on the working of several thousand pounds.
LORD WELBY: The noble Lord must not forget that we have been, entirely recasting the traction. I think it can hardly be expected that there should not be a considerable falling off in receipts during the time the whole traffic was put out of gear in the course of the electrification of the tramways.
LORD AVEBURY: I was going to mention that some allowance, of course, ought to be made for the loss on working pending the conversion to electric traction. But my noble friend took credit for an amount of £210,000 as profit from tramways, and it is important to remember that of that amount no less than £190,000 has been derived from the tramways that were leased. I submit, therefore, that if we are really to embark in London on this further expenditure on tramways, the County Council should consider whether it would not be wiser to lease the lines than to work them themselves.
With regard to housing schemes there are two great differences. There are cases in which works are carried out and people displaced, and it is necessary to re-house them. In those cases the London County Council are under a statutory obligation, and have no option except to take the course which they have taken. But when it comes to carrying out housing schemes for the increase of accommodation for the working classes, the case stands on a very different footing. I had the honour of being vice-chairman of the London County Council at the time when this was first suggested, and I put myself in communication with the great concerns which have done so much to provide housing: for the working classes. I asked them what the effect on their operations would be if the London County Council were to engage in this work. They one and all replied that if the London County Council, with the bottomless purse of the ratepayers, were going into the business, they themselves would not carry on any further operations of the kind; and I cannot help thinking that there would have been just I as many or even more buildings for the

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working classes in London as at the present time if the London County Council had never built any. It is quite true that any loss on the operations, has been trifling comparatively; but I cannot help believing that in London and elsewhere, if it is known that the local authority are going to undertake this business themselves, private enterprise ceases, and in reality they defeat the very object they have in view.
My noble friend spoke of the finance of the London County Council, and I entirely agree with him that the credit of London justly stands very high. I for one have never complained of the finance of the Council, but only of the great expenditure of the Council. If this great expenditure is to be made, I do not know that we can severely criticise the manner in which the money has been raised. I think we owe a debt of thanks to the Finance Committee for the efforts they have made to control the expenditure and keep it within reasonable bounds; but the words in the Act, if I remember rightly, were that the Finance Commitee should " control" the expenditure. I have always understood that to mean that the Finance Committee were to act in the matter of the London County Council's finance somewhat in the same manner as the Treasury acts with reference to our national finance. Unfortunately, however, the system of separate committees proposing expenditure " subject to the consent of the Finance Committee" has tied the hands of the Finance Committee very much. They not unnaturally consider that the County Council had committed themselves to the expenditure, and that all they could do was to see that the expenditure was carried out as economically as possible.
I also agree with what my noble friend said with reference to the necessity of a County Hill. I know from my experience as chairman of the London County Council not only the great inconvenience, but the expense involved in the present arrangement, and the difficulty of working a great business with clerks scattered over a large number of houses. But I also feel with him that considering the enormous amount of expenditure in other ways, the County Hall scheme might have been postponed
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for a time. I sincerely trust that the discussion which has taken place in your Lordship's House this afternoon will tend to strengthen the hands of the Finance Committee, and that they will realise the very great responsibility which is thrown upon them to control the expenditure of the Council.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, there is one point that I should like to call attention to before this Bill passes. A great deal of the money which is to be raised by this Bill concerns locomotion. The method in which this money is to be spent is one of the most important subjects that could possibly be discussed. Two Members of your Lordship's House—the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack and the noble Lord opposite—sat on the Royal Commission on London Traffic, and I very much regret that their recommendation has not yet been carried out. That Commission recommended that, owing to the very complex nature of the locomotion of London, a board should be constituted to deal with the problem as a whole, and a great deal of private enterprise in this direction has been refused to be sanctioned by Parliament, on the ground that until the traffic board has been constituted and the whole policy outlined, it would not be wise to give private companies any powers in this direction.
I am not at all certain that at least a portion of the £6,000,000 which I understand still remains to be expended on tramways will not be expended at considerable risk, if not wasted. It is a question now whether the railed system of locomotion is the most economical and fastest in great cities. No one can doubt that the motor omnibus is going to play an important part in conveying the millions of London, and I must say I think the London County Council are running a very grave risk in, so to speak, putting all their eggs into one basket. As to the figures, I would point out that the cost of running motor omnibuses has already diminished to 10½d. a mile, and I do not think that the County Council can claim to run their cars at less than 10d. a mile. Having regard to the short time motor omnibuses have been on the streets, I think it is a great risk for the Council to

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lay out so much money on tramways which may eventually be a dead loss to the ratepayers. Mr. John Burns, in an article in the Pall Mall Magazine of last month, expressed the opinion that the County Council ought to be the traffic authority for London. I entirely disagree. I fully acknowledge that the County Council have done a great deal of good work in regard to street widening, but on the question of traffic they are to a certain extent biassed, and to constitute them the Traffic Board would be to entrust this important duty to a body not possessing that independence of judgment which such a body should have. I can hardly conceive that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack or the noble Lord opposite would have appended their names to a Report recommending the constitution of a Traffic Board unless they had been convinced that it was the best thing for London; and in my opinion, Parliament should be very careful before they authorise the expenditure of any more money by theCountyCouncil in this direction pending the setting up of the Traffic Board recommended by the Royal Commission.
LORD LUDLOW: My Lords, as a member of the London County Council, I was surprised to hear the statement made by Lord Camperdown to the effect that the tramways were, in his opinion, a paying concern. I have devoted great attention to this matter during the three years I have been on the London County Council, and I have no hesitation in saying that the tramways do not pay, and that that is the opinion of the Moderate Party on the Council. The noble Lord drew his conclusion from the amount of the receipts, but the noble Lord,the Chairman of the Finance Committee of the London County Council, has proved conclusively that these receipts are worth nothing as a guide in this matter. Lord Welby stated that the County Council admitted that the proportion paid from the highways account and the proportion paid from the tramways account in the matter of improvements were not relatively correct; I mean by that that when a street widening takes place for the purpose of making a tramway the greater portion of the cost is debited to
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the highways account. The County Council admit that that is wrong, and that there ought to be a fairer division. Therefore, I venture to think that the figures as to receipts are worth nothing. It. is now agreed that in future a great deal more of the cost of these improvements should be debited to the tramways account. But we want more than that. We say that for the last ten years this has been going on and we want the Council to go back and revise the whole of the accounts. If that were done we submit that there would be a great deficit on the tramways account.
The County Hall is talked of as a thing which is necessary, but I cannot agree that that is so. The building is also spoken of as if it were already erected, and we were going to walk into it, but during the whole time of its erection we should still be occupying the same premises as at present and paying rent, rates, and taxes. I have had the honour of being on the Finance Committee for two years, and I can fully bear out the statement that Lord Welby and the Finance Committee do all they can to keep down the expense of the London County Council, but the drawback is that we have no budget. We do not draw up a budget at the beginning of the year; but, as the various recommendations are brought forward, we have to find the money. We do not know at the beginning of the year what our expenditure is going to be. At the Finance Committee, Lord Welby is always calling attention to the excessive way in which the Council are spending money, and at the meetings of the County Council he repeats that we are borrowing to such an extent that our credit is being ruined, and that whereas five or six years ago we borrowed money at 3½ per cent.we now borrow at 4 per cent.
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, there is only one point connected with this very important subject to which I wish to be allowed to refer, and that is the present credit of the London County Council. I think that my noble friend Lord Welby took the criticism of my noble friend behind me in excellent part, and that he welcomes any support he can obtain from public

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opinion and from Parliament in, I will not say thwarting the expenditure of the enthusiastic reformers who are on the London County Council, but at any rate in restraining the pace at which they are going. My noble friend dropped a phrase which shows that he is entirely in accord with that principle. The works to be undertaken may be excellent in themselves, but there must be a certain moderation in taking up the vast number of schemes to which the London County Council commit themselves.
This question is not only a Metropolitan one; it almost becomes a national question. If the other great boroughs see that the London County Council, the premier council in this respect of the whole Empire, borrowing at the pace at which they have been borrowing, and producing" Bills for £12,000,000 at a time like the present, I think it is calculated to have a disadvantageous effect on municipal finance generally. My noble friend Lord Avebury said that the credit of the London County Council was good, but I am surprised to hear that it is not as good as the credit of Manchester, Birmingham, and Liverpool. I do not know whether my noble friend would confirm or dispute that, but I am told that these cities are able to borrow more cheaply than the London County Council. If that is so, it appears to me that it is a most serious warning to the London County Council as to the degree to which they are straining their credit, and it is a circumstance which should induce the Council to look to their ways.
I associate myself with what has been said with regard to Lord Welby. I think that London is fortunate in having my noble friend as its chief Finance Minister, if I may use that term. He is a trained economist; he is an economist by nature; never was there a greater economist whom I have had the pleasure of knowing in my administrative experience, and it is an irony of fate that my noble friend should have to guide the financial counsels of the London County Council at this time— I will not say in the most extravagant moments of the Council, because I have, no wish to say anything derogatory to,
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the Council, or to express any kind of censure. All I wish to do is to add to the note of warning which has been given, and from the way in which your Lordships have received the speech of my noble friend Lord Camperdown, I feel sure that this House is desirous that a note of warning should be conveyed through my noble friend to the London County Council.
LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, I would venture to say a few words in answer to the observations which have been made on the other side of the House, and I think I am entitled to do so, having had greater experience of the London County Council than any member of your Lordships' House. I have sat upon it since the beginning, and have fought six contested elections. At each of those elections the various points made by noble Lords opposite have been brought forward and considered by the ratepayers, and on every single occasion except one, when the voting was equal, the policy of the predominant party on the Council has always prevailed. The noble Viscount (Viscount Goschen) smiles. If the noble Viscount means to say—and I hope he does not—that the expenditure of the London County Council is extremely foolish, then I think he must also add that the ratepayers—
VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: I was thinking of another instance where there has been extreme extravagance by a board of guardians elected by the ratepayers. I did not intend to smile at the London County Council.
LORD MONKSWELL: I am surprised to hear that the rate at which money can be raised in Birmingham is less than that which has to be paid by the London County Council. That is remarkable, because the debt of London is barely one and a quarter times the annual value of the property in London, whereas in Birmingham the debt is twice the annual value of the property. The unremunerative debt of Manchester, again, is more than three times the annual rateable value, so that it does seem to me that, if it is the case that the London County Council have to borrow on worse

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terms than Manchester or Birmingham, it must be for some other reason than that of extravagance.
I should like to say one word as to the position which has always been occupied by the Finance Committee of the London County Council. We hold on the Council —and I do not think this is a question between Moderates and Progressives—that the Council must be supreme over its committees, and, when noble Lords talk of the analogy of the Treasury, it seems to me that the Finance Committee of the County Council is very much in the same position as the Treasury. The Treasury can be over-ruled by the Cabinet; the Finance Committee of the County Council can be over-ruled by the Council. The only difference is that we do not know when the Cabinet over-rules the Treasury, but we do know when the Finance Committee of the County Council are overruled.
I desire to make one observation with regard to tramways. The tramways of the London County Council are going through a transition period, but nobody who has had experience of the systems on the north and the south of the Thames will deny that where we are in command the tramway is more efficient than where a company is in possession. As to steamboats, the running of steamers on the Thames is purely an experiment. It has always been so treated in the London County Council. There was a unanimous demand that the experiment should be tried. I was not at all sure that it would be successful, but it was impossible for the Council to withstand the pressure applied at the last election. After all, if the experiment is to fail it is not a very disastrous failure. I am afraid we shall lose £50,000 next-year, but the service seems to be getting more popular, and if we continue it for another year probably the deficit will be very considerably reduced. The noble Earl (Lord Donoughmore) laughs at that suggestion, but I can assure him we have reason to suppose that the steamers are becoming more popular. I happen to live on the river and I see the steamers pass my drawing-room window in a crowded state in the summer, and I hope that in the near future they will not impose much urden on the London ratepayers.
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I would like to have said a word about housing, but as my noble friend Earl Carrington wishes to deal with that subject, I shall say no more beyond this, that just as in the case of steamers we had no option but to try the experiment, so in the case of housing there was a unanimous demand at every county council election that we should carry out a housing scheme. I entirely associate myself with all that has been said as to the extreme value of the services of Lord Wolby and of the Finance Committee of the Council.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, after the very interesting debate that we have had I do not intend to detain the House at any length, but I am sure your Lordships were all delighted with the enthusiasm of the noble Lord who has just sat down for the work of the London County Council. He naturally is proud of the institution of which he has been a member since its birth, but he will forgive us if we do not all quite entertain the same enthusiasm. Your Lordships have a very special responsibility in considering a Bill such as the one now before us, because the position of the London County Council as regards their financial proposals is a very peculiar one. Most of the local authorities do their work under the guidance, and I might almost say the check, of a Government Department, but the London County Council are an exception to this rule. The London County Council do not submit schemes for raising capital to any Government Department. Instead of doing so, they come annually to Parliament with a Money Bill such as this. One cannot help noticing that local authorities have not always liked the check to which they have been subjected by Government Departments. I read the other day an interesting article in the Pall Mall Magazine by one of His Majesty's Ministers. In this article Mr. John Burns spoke of the improvements carried out by the London County Council—
" in the teeth of the cold neutrality or thinly veiled hostility of every Imperial Department that has intervened in London affairs only too often in the past to restrict or hamper them."
I am sure it is a matter of congratulation I to Mr. John Bums that the check which

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he has felt so sorely in the past can now be removed through his own efforts.
I would refer briefly to one or two points which have been raised by representatives of the London County Council opposite. Lord Wolby, I thought, suggested that the County Council Lad been unfairly criticised for putting forward estimates at times which had not always proved justified or accurate, and he quoted cases in which accuracy had been attained, and claimed that they were extremely creditable to the various committees concerned. I do not deny that a satisfactory estimate is a credit to the author, but some of these estimates shown in the schedule of the Bill now before us are of a very extreme character, and I think that the animadversions made upon them by the noble Earl behind me were fully justified. Turning to No. 8, I find that the original estimate presented to the Council for rebuilding Vauxhall Bridge and the construction of approaches, including the purchase of property and compensation, was £484,000. The revised estimate is £535,000. The revised estimate is 10 per cent, over the Parliamentary estimate, and 18 per cent, over the estimate that was originally submitted to the London County Council when they decided in 1894 to promote the Bill to build the bridge.
LORD WELBY: The reason of that increase is that more land was found necessary for the improvement than was originally estimated for. It was not a mistake in estimating.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I can only say that if during the last two years I had made such a mistake as to calculate on too small a portion of land being taken for work in which the War Office were concerned I should have had a very ugly time with the officials at the Treasury. But in the case of the London County Council apparently nobody takes any notice at all. The cost of the Tower Bridge northern approach was 112 per cent, over the original Parliamentary estimate; the cost of the Greenwich tunnel was 16 per cent, over the Parliamentary estimate, and 160 per cent, over the estimate originally submitted to the
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Council in June, 1896. If a public Department dared to make such a mistake as that they would not hear the end of it for months, but this sort of thing appears in the schedule of a Bill promoted by the London County Council and moved by the noble Lord opposite without a single word of explanation. Again, much has been, said about the steamboats. Noble Lords opposite do not like our suggestion that the steamboats are an extremely bad speculation and they plead for more time. What is happening in this matter, to put it in one sentence, is that the London County Council are spending £2 to earn £1. They can go on doing that so long as they like, but if they continue on that basis they will have some difficulty in persuading your Lordships that they are embarked on a profitable undertaking.
One word with reference to the tramways. I was extremely glad to hear from the noble Lord opposite that the Council felt that in future more than one-third of the cost of improvements should be charged to the tramways account, but I would remind the noble Lord that theory is one thing and practice another. I would quote the case of the St. John's Street, Clerkenwell, improvement. The ordinary arrangement was made as to the terms on which that widening should be carried out, and one-third of the cost was charged to the tramways account; but I noticed in the annual report of the proceedings of the London County Council for the year ended March 31st, 1905, this statement—
" The widening of St. John's Street, Clerkenwell, authorised by the London County Council Improvements Act, 1900, was completed on April 8th, 1904, and the maintenance and control of the widened thoroughfare has been handed over to the Finsbury Metropolitan Borough Council."
The report went on to give details, and stated that one-third was to be charged to the tramways account. But here is the kernel of the matter—
"The Council, however, on October 29th, 1901, agreed to relieve the tramways account of this liability on the understanding that the liability should be revived and be met at a future time if the profits from the proposed tramway should prove to be sufficient to meet such liability in whole or in part."
That means that if the profits of a particular tramway are sufficient to justify

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it, this charge will be made, but if the profits do not justify it the result is that the capital is cut down and charged to something else, and the true capital cost of the tramway is not shown. I hope there may be some reason for this procedure on the part of the London County Council, but the result must inevitably be most unfortunate, for the public sees accounts in connection with these tramways which do not show truthfully and properly the true state of the case as regards the expenditure that has been incurred upon them. I hold most strongly that when municipalities engage in these enterprises they should be under exactly the same obligations with regard to the presentation of their accounts as a public company, and that this watering down of capital is wrong. I hope that the influence of the noble Lord the Chairman of the Finance Committee of the London County Council will be exerted in future to obviate a repetition of this kind of thing.
The noble Lord who has just sat down stated that in his opinion the relations of the Finance Committee to the County Council were very similar to the relations of the Treasury to the other Government Departments. I can only say that that is not the opinion of the Finance Committee of the Council. I will read a short extract from the annual report of the Finance Committee for 1903—
"We have for a long time been impressed with the desirability of establishing some system by which the Council shall be able to co-ordinate its expenditure and thus regulate to some extent the amount of its borrowings from time to time."
If their position were the same as that of the Treasury they would not find it necessary to advocate a change in that direction. I venture to think that noble Lords behind me have been right in urging that the position of the Finance Committee of the London County Council is not a satisfactory one,and not in accordance with the intention of the Legislature in 1888. I trust that this evening's discussion may at any rate have one result— a result which has been hoped for by several speakers this evening, that of strengthening the hands of the noble Lord opposite and of securing that in future he will be in reality the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the London County Council
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and not the mere registrar of their financial decisions.
LORD WELBY: Having had some experience in both departments. I venture to think that the functions of the Finance Committee of the London County Council very closely resemble those of the Treasury. I will not take up the time of your Lordships by further explanation, but I think the instance which the noble Earl brought forward is hardly in point in that respect.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON): My Lords, I think the House ought to remember that we have been discussing simply a Money Bill-All these works have been authorised, and we are merely asking the House this afternoon to pass the Bill which is to provide the money. I believe I am correct in saying that on no previous occasion has such a Bill of the Council's been discussed. I am of opinion, however, that nothing but good can come of a discussion in this House or in another place as regards the finances of the London County Council. London is a great city equal to a kingdom. It has a population of over 5,000,000, more than that of the whole of Australia. To keep that great population in health and comparative comfort a great expenditure of public money is, of course, necessary, and it is not surprising that £12,000,000 annually should be spent for that object.. The chief point of attack on the London County Council this evening has been the very vexed question of steamboats. As to the Council's steamboats, that scheme is after all, only an experiment, and not a very costly one. The most that it can cost this year is £50,000. The real municipal enterprises of the County Council are the tramways and the housing schemes. I was very clad to hear my noble friend Lord Camperdown say that he thought the tramways would turn out a successful undertaking.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I said that so far as I could form a judgment from such limited experience as I had obtained from sitting on this Committee and hearing the evidence, it seemed

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to me there was a fair chance of the undertaking's turning out a success.
EARL CARRINGTON: I am glad that the experience of the noble Lord leads him to make that statement in public. I would remind the House that the tramways are of the most vital importance to the people of London. I do not think I am exaggerating in the slightest degree when I say that better locomotion is the only wav of solving the housing problem which is always before us. Viscount Goschen gave a timely note of warning as to municipal extravagance, and he referred to the amount required for loans by the different municipalities. I think I ought to remind your Lordships that £3,000,000 of these loans which the County Council have to find, and which are in this Bill, are loans over which the London County Council have no authority whatever; they are merely bankers for the local authorities and have to find the money.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: So much of it as they see fit.
EARL CARRINGTON: They have very little to say to it. When the London municipalities were brought into being it was foreshadowed by the late Lord Salisbury, when he advised his followers to capture the different seats on the London County Council and to smash it, that they were to be in no way subservient to the County Council. They were to be practically independent; and this great sum is brought on the rates for which I do not think we on the County Council can honestly be held responsible.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: If the noble Earl will look at Clause 6 he will see these words—
" The Council may lend to such corporation or other public body, and such corporation or other public body may borrow from the Council such money as the Council think fit."
EARL CARRINGTON: I quite agree. I now turn to the question of housing, which I think may be considered one of the most important of the London County Council's responsibilities. We have been taken to task for the expenses that have been incurred in that very necessary enterprise, but I would like
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to remind the House of Lords that by their clearances of the Clare Market and Boundary Street sites the County Council have reduced a mortality of forty per 1,000 to one of ten per 1,000. Even if we have made some mistakes in small matters, such as steamboats, I surely we may claim credit for those great I works which have been of such incalculable benefit to the people of London. I need not refer to what has been done at Millbank and other places or to the two I great model lodging - houses on the Rowton pattern which the London County Council have built, but I would I ask your Lordships always to remember I that the Council's rehousing schemes are on a self-supporting basis. If the Council I have done so badly and been so extravagant, I ask, how is it that the Progressive I majority keeps up to the level of two to, one? Indeed. I think that majority I is too large, and all lovers of London would be only too glad if the Moderate Party had some policy to lay before the people and so were able to capture some seats.
I honestly think that we on the London County Council have nothing to be ashamed of. Look at what has been done in connection with parks, bands, the fire brigade, the bridges, main drainage, street improvements, asylums, weights and measures—I venture to think that in all these things we have done our duty fearlessly and courageously. One noble Lord said that Mr. Baker, the Chairman of the Highways Committee. I was an expensive luxury in the matter of I tramways. I would ask your Lordships to consider what a luxury these electric trams are, and how vitally necessary they are to the women and girls of South London who have to travel long distances to their work, and who, through the unhappy mistake of your Lordships last year, have now to walk over the bridges instead of being able to ride without any extra expense in the comfortable, warn, and well-lighted trams of the London County Council. In spite of all our alleged wrong-doing I honestly believe that London in the main endorses our policy. I have been on the London County Council, now for fifteen years. I have fought five contested elections. My first majority was 120, but my majority at the last election was 1,500. I have

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consistently supported the Progressive policy during those fifteen years, and I do not think that the people of my own constituency—West St. Pancras—which Las a huge working class population, have lost their confidence in me or have failed to recognise with satisfaction the efforts of the County Council to promote the welfare and ameliorate the conditions of the over-worked and heavily-taxed people of the Metropolis.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, I wish to put in a word of caution against a suggestion thrown out by the noble Earl who raised this discussion. This is a Money Bill. We are dealing with finance more than policy, and I do think that to adopt the suggestion that the London County Council, merely because they have discretion whether or not they advance money to local authorities, should exercise that discretion in accordance with their judgment as to the wisdom of the purposes for which the smaller authorities borrow, would be most disastrous to the interests of London. I would also point out that it is to the advantage of London that all its debt should be as far as possible in one Stock.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the noble Earl the President off the Board of Agriculture will pardon me if I suggest that his defence of the London County Council was scarcely so successful or so relevant as that of my noble friend Lord Welby. I cannot see that the fact that the supporters of the noble Earl are as two to one in the County Council, or that he has himself had for a long time the honour of representing an influential constituency have very much to do with the matters which we are discussing. The noble Earl rather took exception to, or suggested that there was something novel or unheard of in, the House of Lords attempting to debate a Money Bill of this kind. All I can say is that if this is the first occasion upon which your Lordships have debated a London County Council Money Bill I hope it will not be the last.
But the noble Earl seems to imagine that there is a desire in the minds of some of
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your Lordships to stand in the way of these great municipal improvements. He is quite mistaken. I think we all of us admit that the age in which we are living is one when all classes insist, and rightly insist, upon having the surroundings of their daily life made more healthy and more attractive, and I for one am sincerely grateful, not only to the London County Council, but to other municipal bodies, for what they have done in giving us better thoroughfares, better lighted and more cleanly streets, better buildings, and other improvements of many kinds. But what we feel is that it is not desirable that all these things should be done at once. It is, as my noble friend Lord Goschen said, a question of pace, and I wish to add my voice to that of those who have made a plea this evening for what I might call imposing a speed limit on the London County Council. We have a right in this House to offer these criticisms and suggestions, because if they are not made here I do not quite know where they are to be made. The London County Council enjoys an amount of independence not enjoyed, so far as I am aware, by any other municipal body in the United Kingdom. It is, as has been already, I think, pointed out, allowed to proceed with little or no intervention from the Local Government Board. It is theoretically under the control and guidance of its own Finance Committee, but the evidence which has been brought forward this evening shows how very unsubstantial that control is.
LORD WELBY: In innumerable instances the Treasury does exercise a check.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I accept that if the noble Lord says so. Like many other people, I was greatly reassured by knowing that he and a distinguished colleague of his, Sir Francis Mowatt, were members of this Finance Committee. They were regarded by us as towers of strength, but I am afraid we must admit that in their re-incarnation, if I may say so, as members of the London County Council, they are considerably shorn of the great powers which they used to exercise when we knew them as high

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officials at the Treasury. I can remember times when great Departments quailed before the eye of my noble friend and when Ministers were anxious to convert him to their views. He is now only, if I may say so, a pale ghost of his former self, and we have listened to, I might almost say, pathetic extracts from his speeches, in which he gave the soundest advice to his colleagues, only to have that advice put on one side with something very like indifference.
What has been the result of this wholesale expenditure, this wholesale borrowing on the part of the London County Council? Lord Welby put before the House what I think he called a broader view of the financial position of the County Council, and he showed that, after all, they had only hypothecated one year's annual revenue, whereas other great cities were in debt to double that extent. But, my Lords, that does not seem to me really to affect the argument which has been used to-night. The argument which has been used is that these indiscriminate borrowings have had the effect of shaking the credit of the London County Council, and that, I think, has been proved to the hilt by the fact mentioned by Lord Goschen, that three great cities—Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool—are at this moment able to borrow on cheaper terms than the London County Council. Not only is that the case, but I believe I am right in saying that the securities of the London Water Board are quoted at a higher figure than the securities of the London County Council.
LORD WELBY: The Water Board has the whole of the water rental as well as the rates as its securities.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I accept that as far as the Water Board is concerned. But it does not convince me as regards the relative credit of the London County Council and the three great cities I have named. Lord Monkswell referred to this point, and said the comparatively low credit of the London County Council had to be explained by some other mysterious fact. I do not think there is any mystery about it.
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It is accounted for by the fact that in the City it is known that the London County Council are constantly making these applications for new loans, and that nobody knows what other applications there may be lying behind those which are scheduled in this Bill. A year ago a well-known member of the London County Council, and an ex-Chairman of that body, used these words—
" The commitments of the Council are appalling. Its financial position is one that I look upon with grave doubts as to what is to be done in the future."
That is the view that is held, I believe, by a great number of those who have anxiously watched the progress of County Council finance, and this Bill bristles with illustrations of what I am saying. I am not going through the schedule again, because it has been quoted, but here is n, Bill which, by a stroke of the pen, adds £12,000,000 to the debt of London, and there is nothing in the Bill to show how far any one of those heads of expenditure is a final head of expenditure, or whether they represent only mere instalments on account. We know from experience that these County Council estimates have not been by any means trustworthy in the past. My noble friend Lord Donoughmore referred to half a dozen of them in which there were wide discrepancies between the original Parliamentary estimate and the revised estimate made a year or two afterwards. One word as to the Hotel de Ville—I do not know what the proper title of the building is.
EARL CARRINGTON: The County Hall.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I quite understand that there should be a very great advantage in concentrating under one roof the many scattered offices in which the work of the County Council is now done but one would expect that such concentration would lead to reductions in the strength of the staff and to a more economically worked office, but we are told that the number of clerks, which now stands, I believe, at 2,000, is to be increased to 2,300, and if all these additional and extraneous schemes of which we have heard are taken up, where is the end

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to be? Your building, large as it is, will not be large enough, and you will have to add to its dimensions. I was much struck by the sagacious remark which fell from Lord Welby during the course of his speech, when he told your Lordships that in his view this particular enterprise might well have stood over for the present.
With regard to the future, we can only hope that the result of this debate may be to convince the County Council and the public that we do stand in need of greater frugality and moderation in the expenditure of the ratepayers' money. I hope, above all things, that the County Council will be induced to avoid taking up what I would venture to describe as fancy enterprises—enterprises of which these steamboats, about which we have heard so much to-night, are a type and an example. My noble friend Lord Carrington, in his light-hearted way, treated the loss upon the steamboat account as quite a trivial matter; but surely £51,000 a year, representing the interest upon, I suppose, over a million of money, is not a piece of extravagance to which we can be absolutely indifferent. I would venture to make a humble suggestion. I gather from something which has been said this evening that this flotilla has been so destructive to other shipping in the river that the rate of insurance upon it has been increased. Could not the whole flotilla be handed over, on cheap and tempting terms, to some third-rate Power in some other part of the world?
I have also been told that the County Council contemplate or have made a beginning in supplying the county with ambulances. That seems to me to be a matter scarcely within their proper functions. The same may be said, I think, of the desire evidenced at every turn to embark in municipal trading of all sorts— for example, the supply of electricity in bulk, even, I understand, outside the limits of London. Surely that is going beyond the legitimate scope of the operations which we should expect this great municipal body to undertake, and the effect cannot be otherwise than detrimental. It must have a deterrent effect on private enterprise. If those who desire to develop private enterprise find themselves at every turn competing with some huge
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Government agency, they will naturally draw in their horns and we shall hear no more of them.
Then there was another point made by my noble friend Lord Montagu which certainly ought not to be lost sight of. We are told, for example, that these tramways will in time be extremely remunerative, but we must never allow ourselves to forget that science never stands still, and that as years go by the inventions which are up-to-date to-day become the obsolete inventions of the future, and if that should happen you may find your municipal authorities loaded with all sorts of enterprises, promising indeed when they were first started, but in their old age useless and ruinous to those who have invested money in promoting them.
I will bring the few words I have to say to a conclusion by repeating that I am one of those who are proud of the city of London, and desire to see it made as attractive, healthy, and beautiful as possible. I do not wish in the least to stand in the way of legitimate improvements, but these things can be overdone, and I do not think that we shall make London a better place to live in in the long run if, while we try to tempt people to it by improving its thoroughfares and beautifying its buildings, we at one and the same time make it such an expensive place to live in that people are inclined to fly beyond its limits.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON): My Lords, I do not raise the smallest objection to the interesting discussion which has taken place in respect to this Bill. The purpose of bringing the Bill before Parliament is that if this or the other House think fit to discuss it, they shall be perfectly free to do so. I have no doubt advantage will be derived from the discussion which has taken place to-night. I hope and believe the London County Council will give full consideration to the various criticisms which have been made of their proceedings. No doubt they stand in a special position. We have never heard, and we never shall hear, of any such discussion in respect, to the expenditure of any other of the rest cities of this Empire; but, of

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course, it is natural, the London County Council not being subject to some of the restrictions which lie upon municipalities generally, and Parliament having this Bill brought annually before it, that it should be discussed and that any criticisms which noble Lords or others choose to make should be raised.
But I cannot help having a certain feeling that noble Lords opposite are very unnatural parents. The London County Council is their creation, yet it has been the object of the criticism and hostility of the Party opposite almost from the day of its birth. I hope, nevertheless, that its members will carefully consider the criticisms which have been so freely made. I am bound to say that, although I do think there is a little of the stepmother element in the view which has been taken of this question by the Conservative Party almost from the beginning, the criticisms to-night have been made in a more friendly and less carping spirit than some we have heard, I will not say in this House, but elsewhere on previous occasions. Something has been said about the credit of the London County Council. Your Lordships probably know that the last loan raised by the London County Council was at 97. That does not indicate anything very b id in the nature of their credit. Many securities have fallen greatly and very rapidly within the last few years. Even Consols themselves have tumbled down to a very serious extent, and at a very rapid rate at times. When you talk about the borrowings of the London County Council, one thing must be considered. It has been said that the London County Council are under fewer restrictions than other municipal bodies, In a certain sense they are, but in one respect they are under a very curious restriction which does not make for economy. The local boroughs created a good many years after the establishment of the County Council have an appeal to the Local Government Board if a loan which they desire is refused by the London County Council. A good deal of the borrowing of the London County Council is due, I suspect, to that source. All I wish to say is this. You have here a great body, a body that I believe has done a large and very valuable
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work for this Metropolis. You have here a great body, representing, upon a basis which commended itself to noble Lords opposite, the people of London. I do not say that that is a reason why you should not criticise its proceedings, as this annual Bill gives you the power of doing if you think fit; but I do say that this great body, performing such valuable work for the county, is entitled, whenever you do criticise its proceedings to the most respectful consideration of this House.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed.

PETITIONS.
  SUNDAY CLOSING OF SHOPS, ETC.
  Petition in favour of legislation of nine meetings in diocese of Carlisle; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  Report from the Committee of Selection that the following Lords be proposed to the House as the panel of Lords to act as Commissioners under the Act, viz., V. Hill, L. Torphichen; agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly.
  TREATY SERIES, No. 8 (1906).
  Accession of Columbia to the Convention signed at Geneva, 22nd August, 1864, for the amelioration of the condition of the wounded in armies in the field. (June 7th, 1906.)

  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS, 1905).
  Report on the Agricultural Returns relating to acreage and produce of crops and number of live stock in Great Britain, with Summaries for the United Kingdom, British Possessions, and foreign countries, and particulars of prices, imports, and exports of agricultural produce.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Reports by the Board of Trade as to the grounds on which they have dispensed (1) with the consents of certain local and road authorities in the case of the Mid-Kent Water Provisional Order; (2) with the consent of the Chippenham Rural District Council in the case of the Corsham Gas Provisional Order.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated July 3rd, 1006, declaring Chinanfu to be an unhealthy place within the meaning of the Superannuation Act, 1876.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889.
  University Court Ordinance, No. XVI. (Glasgow, No. 4), Institution of a degree in science in pharmacy: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 154.)
  JUVENILE SMOKING BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  JUVENILE SMOKING.
  Report from the Select Committee (with the proceedings of the Committee), I made, and to be printed. (No. 155.) Minutes of Evidence and an Appendix laid upon the Table, and to be delivered out.

  RESERVE OFFICERS.
  LORD ROSMEADrose to ask His Majesty's Government if they would appoint a Committee to investigate into the alleged grievances of the senior Reserve officers who were called up for service during the late war in South Africa. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it may be within the recollection; of some of your Lordships that I first brought this matter to the notice of this House so long ago as May, 1903.† On that occasion the then Under-Secre-
  † See (4) Debates, cxxii., 277 et seq..
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  tary of State for War, during his speech in answer to my Motion, made the following statement to your Lordships—
  " I admit that grievances have arisen in exceptional eases. Not every officer who has been re-employed has a grievance, hut there are special cases in which the Secretary of State for War thinks that some redress may be necessary. For that reason my right hon. friend has recently appointed a Committee which is inquiring into the whole subject; and if, on the Report of that Committee, he is able to see his way to put forward proposals for the consideration of the Treasury he will do so."‡
  Those, my Lords, were the words of the Under - Secretary of State for War in May, 1903. I have since been informed on several occasions by my noble friend the late Under - Secretary of State for War that such a Committee did exist, and that it was a War Office Committee. All I can venture to say is that it was a very mysterious Committee, as I have never been able to ascertain what report it made, if it ever made one, which I very much doubt. There is one thing very evident, and that is, that this mysterious Committee took no evidence, as several Reserve officers who were affected came forward, and asked to give evidence before it, and they were refused.
  I am also informed that an appeal by those officers was made about a year ago to Mr. Arnold-Forster, when he was in office, to allow the matter to be referred to arbitration by the then Lord Chancellor, and that this appeal did not even elicit a reply. I do trust the present Government, several members of which have consistently shown their sympathy with the grievances of the senior Reserve officers who were called up for service during the late war, and some of whom did me the honour of going into the lobby with me when I divided your Lordships' House unsuccessfully last year on this subject, will appoint a Committee to inquire into the whole matter, and that such an inquiry will be as open a one as possible, and that at any rate those officers who come forward will be permitted to give evidence before it.
  THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH): My Lords, the whole case of
  ‡ See (4) Debates, cxxii., 280.

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  the officers referred to has been the subject of most careful consideration, but I regret to have to inform the noble Lord that it has not been found practicable to re-open the question which has been previously considered and definitely settled. The decision therefore already arrived at regarding the emoluments of the retired officers temporarily employed during the South African campaign must be adhered to. Regulations have, however, been prepared with a view to making the pay drawn during re-employment quite independent of either retired pay or gratuity, and the Army Council are therefore, confident that any apparent difficulties in the interpretation of the Royal Warrant will be avoided in future, and any anomaly such as that which occurred in the past will not occur again.

  EXPERIMENTAL MOBILISATION.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSrose to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War who had stated that " we had a mobilisation scheme under which it is hoped we could mobilise as quickly as could any Continental nation; " whether he would, to test our military home defensive preparedness, give notice to one of our military " commands "—chosen by lot the day notice is given— to take the field, self-complete in all respects, with all possible speed; Alder-shot and the Curragh being excluded from the chance selection.
  The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have only a few words to say in support of the notice standing in my name on the Paper. I wish to remind your Lordships that last year you unanimously passed a Resolution that in the opinion of this House it was desirable that our land defences should be at all times such that no nation would ever think of a hostile landing on our shores. The other day I pointed out how quickly foreign nations could mobilise, and my noble friend, in replying to me, said that we had a mobilisation scheme under which it was hoped we could mobilise as quickly as could any Continental nation. I think your Lordships will admit that, considering that we spend £29,000,000. and that your Lordships have agreed that our home defence should be such that no nation would ever think of a hostile landing on our shores, we
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  should know what our state of preparedness is, and that my noble friend should test his mobilisation scheme in the same way as the Navy has just tested naval mobilisation, under which men called out unexpectedly were mobilised ready for service within twenty-four hours. We want the same test in regard to our military preparedness. I beg to put the Question standing in my name.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, my reply to my noble friend must, I fear, be in the negative for several reasons. In the first place, our mobilisation arrangement were tested in 1899 for the South African War, and perhaps the best commentary on how they worked then is furnished in the Report of the Elgin Commission, where we find the following statement—
  " The evidence before the Committee shows that mobilisation was effected smoothly and with remarkable despatch."
  In support of this conclusion the Commissioners refer to the evidence of Colonel Robb, an officer of the Adjutant-Generals Department, who was intimately concerned with mobilisation arrangements at the War Office. That officer says—
  " I have never known such an absolutely quiet time at the War Office as immediately after the issue of mobilisation orders,"
  and again—
  "The mobilisation regulations worked extremely smoothly as regards the formed bodies of men who were supposed to be mobilised under them.''
  The Commission also draws attention to the evidence of General Sir Frederick Stopford, who for some time past has been Director of Military Training at headquarters. He stated—
  " Mobilisation is a comparatively new organisation in our Army, and all the arrangements connected with it were not complete in 1899, but they were sufficiently in progress to admit of the mobilisation being carried out successfully."
  If we turn to the evidence of Lord Wolseley, the then Commander-in-Chief, we find in a Report referring to the mobilisation and embarkation of the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th divisions that—
  " In preparing, equipping and despatching this large body of men, the machinery of mobilisation and embarkation has worked without a serious hitch of any kind."

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  I now come to the second of my reasons. My noble friend's proposed experiment would cause serious public inconvenience in withdrawing Reservists from their employment, and for the mere purpose of what we consider an unnecessary experiment this would be unjustifiable. In the third place, and this is by no means the least important objection to my noble friend's proposal, I am informed by financial experts that his proposition would involve an expenditure of from £5,000 to possibly £25,000—
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: That is very cheap.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: In the present financial situation I am afraid that would scarcely be regarded as commendable, and even if any such expenditure appeared tolerable to your Lordships I am quite sure it would not be tolerated in another place, in whose hands lie the public purse strings. Once the order to mobilise is given the Reservists who are called up must be paid and fed and equipped for whatever length of time it was decided to keep them. The transport of these men from their homes throughout the country to the various depots of the regiments and the transport of various bodies of troops to the large mobilisation centres would also entail considerable expenditure. These are only two items in the general work of mobilisation, but I am sure they suffice to show your Lordships that mobilisation, even though carried out with the greatest smoothness and despatch, necessarily involves a very considerable outlay of public money, and in our opinion should only be resorted to for experimental purposes when the strongest case has been made out for its necessity.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I wish to give notice that on Friday of next week I propose to move the following Resolution—
  " That this House, having last Session unanimously resolved that our home land defence should at all times be such that no nation would ever attempt in any form an hostile landing on our shores, is of opinion that the present state of preparedness should be forthwith practically tested, as recently suggested in the Question addressed to the Under-Secretary of State for War on July 9th."
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I should like to point out with what satisfaction I have heard from my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for War that he considers £25,000 a large sum. The noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture earlier in the evening regarded £50,000 as a mere bagatelle, and I would suggest to my noble friend opposite that he should take the noble Earl under his wing and teach him a little at the War Office as to what economy really is.

  SOLDIERS' MARRIED QUARTERS.
  THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that in Lichfield Barracks one bedroom only is allotted to married people with two children, and that in some cases where the whole family have to sleep in the one room, the mothers are in an advanced stage of consumption; whether it is in the power of local sanitary authorities to take action in such cases; and to move for a Return showing the state of things in other barracks.
  I think it is only fair to state that the moment notice was called to this case action was taken, but I do think this is a matter of so serious a character that it ought not to be left to an individual to draw attention to it. I know quite well that there are two types of barracks, the old construction type and the new construction type, and that Lichfield barracks come within the former category. I understand that in a great many of the barracks of the old construction the state of things is as bad as, if not worse than, in Lichfield Barracks, and I therefore make no apology for calling attention to this matter. I think the state of the married quarters in these barracks ought to be generally known, and I hope the noble Earl will agree to the presentation of the Return for which I ask.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, in reply to my noble friend, I will deal first with that part of his Question which refers to consumptive mothers occupying the same sleeping apartment as the rest of the family. I find on investigation that two such cases did

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  occur at Lichfield, but as soon as this was brought to notice, orders were immediately given for further accommodation, and this was done by placing other families on the lodging list, i.e., giving them lodgings outside barracks. The two women in question now occupy separate rooms in the quarters allotted for their respective families. At the same time I should like to point out that at Lichfield there are thirty-four married quarters which contain two bedrooms and ten which contain three bedrooms.
  As regards the general question, the Army Council fully recognise the importance of the adequate provision of suitable married quarters, but to bring all the present quarters fully up to modern standards cannot be done in a day. In part 1, Vote 10, Army Estimates of 1906–7, an item of £95,000 stands for the general improvement of married quarters, and we expect to spend £12,300 in the present financial year; that is to say, we recognise generally the necessity of improvements, as soon as money is available, to the extent of £95,000. As regards the power of local sanitary authorities to take action, I am informed that under Section 327, sub-section 2, of the Public Health Act, 1875, the local civil authorities have no power of entering into or interference with War Department property, whether in the occupation of the War Department or its tenants.
  Concerning the state of things in other barracks about which my noble friend asks for a Return, I understand that there are altogether 13,390 married quarters. Of these 1,874 are one-room quarters, and of these there are two in Lichfield; 7,713 are two-room quarters; 3,060 quarters consisting of three rooms and a scullery; and 743 four-room quarters. As I have already said, my colleagues on the Army Council fully recognise the need for improvement in this matter, and I can assure my noble friend that it is a question which is constantly before the minds of the authorities.
  THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: I am obliged to my noble friend for his Answer, but I think that in a case of this kind
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  the local sanitary inspector should have right of entry. The noble Earl did not say whether he would grant the Return.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I gave the noble Earl in my reply the information for which he asked.
  House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, at quartet-past Four o'clock.