Sitting of 1 March 1905

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Andover Lighting and Power Bill; Brompton, Chatham, Gillingham, and Rochester Water Bill; Epping Gas Bill; Gas Light and Coke, South Metropolitan, and Commercial Gas Companies Bill; Great Eastern Railway Bill; Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railways Bill; Great Northern Railway Bill; Great Western Railway (New Railways) Bill, Higham and Hundred of Hoo Water Bill; Hull, Barnsley, and West Riding Junction Railway and Dock Bill; London and North Western Railway Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
Midland Railway Bill; North Eastern Railway Bill; North Eastern Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill. To be read a second time to-morrow.
Nottingham and Retford Railway Bill; Southampton and Winchester Great
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Western Junction Railway (Abandonment) Bill, South Metropolitan Gas Bill; South Suburban Gas Bill; Walker and Wallsend Union Gas Bill; White-chapel and Bow Railway Bill; Weybridge and Walton-upon-Thames Electric Supply Bill; Wrexham Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.

PETITIONS.
  JUVENILE SMOKING.
  Two Petitions from Edinburgh, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  SUGAR TAX.
  Petitions for repeal; from Liscard; Liverpool; Manchester; and Stockport (three); to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  AGRICULTURAL AND TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION SCHEMES (IRELAND).
  Return [presented 28th February] to be printed. [No. 70.]
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Statistics of Aid Grant under The Voluntary Schools Act,1897,1903–5 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  QUEEN ANNE'S BOUNTY.
  Copy presented, of Annual Report and Accounts of the Governors for the year 1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ARMY AND MILITIA.
  Copy presented, of Annual Report of the Director of Recruiting and Organisation for the year ended 30th September,1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Rhodesia Railways, Limited.
  MR. BUCHANAN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the proposed payment of £60,000 to the Rhodesia Railways, Limited, is the award of the arbitrators, and, if so, who were the arbitrators; whether the War Office originally offered £24,000 in satisfaction; and whether we pay an annual subsidy to this company of £20,000 a year, and on what grounds.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) A settlement was arrived at without carrying the matter to arbitration. The War Office at one stage of the negotiations made an offer of £24,817 in respect of certain claims, but other claims amounting to £23,000 were not covered by this offer. As regards the latter part of the Question I must refer the hon. Member to Sessional Paper 277, of 1894. I am prepared to deal fully with the matter in Committee of Supply if necessary.

  Grants in Aid for Somaliland.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the total amount of Grants in Aid for Somaliland already voted; and the particulars of the various Votes and the dates on which they were voted.
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  (Answered by Earl Percy.) The Grants in Aid already voted have been as follows:—1900–1, £60,000, Grant in Aid of Military Expenses; 1902–3, £25,000, in aid of Military Expenses; 1903–4, £50,000, in aid of Military Expenses and to meet the cost of buildings taken over from the Government of India on the transfer of the Protectorate in 1898; 1904–5, £24,600, in aid of Military Expenses. The dates of the various Votes, as given in Hansard, appear to be:—1900–1, March 19th,1901; 1902–3, August 4th,1902; 1903–4, August 10th,1903; 1904–5, August 9th,1904.

  Swine Fever Regulations.
  MR. MARKS: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board have considered the suggestions made to them in December last by the Canterbury Farmers Club and East Kent Chamber of Agriculture, for the better working of the regulations with respect to local outbreaks of swine fever; whether the Board will arrange, by the employment of veterinary surgeons of the neighbourhood, that when a suspected case of swine fever is notified by the police, a veterinary examination shall be made at once, and that, if, upon examination, it is found not to be swine fever, the suspected premises shall be declared free in fourteen days; and whether the Board will grant greater facilities for obtaining licences for the removal of swine for breeding and other purposes, and take measures to ensure prompt payment for slaughtered animals when slaughter has been found necessary.
  (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) The suggestions made by the Canterbury Farmers Club and shortly indicated in the hon. Member's Question have received careful consideration on the part of the Board and were fully dealt with in a letter addressed to the club on January 17th last. On the receipt of a report that swine fever is suspected to exist a veterinary examination is at once made either by one of the Board's veterinary inspectors or by a veterinary surgeon acting on their behalf. If the diagnosis does not point to the presence of disease the premises are freed from restrictions at the end of fourteen days. Arrangements for the issue of licences are made

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  by the local authority and not by the Board. Where the slaughter of swine has been found necessary compensation money is paid at the earliest possible moment.

  The Metric System.
  SIR THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, having regard to the fact that the foreign trade of Great Britain is conducted mainly with countries where the metric system is in force, will he consider the advisability of taking steps to secure the universal adoption of that system in the United Kingdom.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) I do not think my hon. friend correctly states the facts. Of the total value of the over-sea trade of this country in 1903,42 per cent., or less than one-half, was conducted with countries in which the metric system is in force. I do not see my way at present to propose a measure for the compulsory adoption of the metric system in this country, but I may remind my hon. friend that the use of the metric system was legalised for all purposes some years ago, and that it is therefore open to any person trading with foreign countries to make use of it.

  Metropolitan Ambulance Service.
  SIR THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the remarks made at the Lambeth Coroner's Court last autumn by Mr. Troutbeck, the coroner, relative to the inefficiency of the metropolitan ambulance service; and can he see his way to introduce such legislation as may be necessary to enable metropolitan boroughs to provide an efficient service.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I have not been able to trace the remarks of Mr. Troutbeck to which the hon. Member refers. There is at present no general metropolitan ambulance service. Such a service, if provided at all, ought, in my opinion, to be provided for the whole of London by a single authority and not by the various borough councils. I understand that the London County Council have the matter at present under their considera-
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  tion. Cases of illness and accidents that occur in the streets are dealt with by the metropolitan police ambulances.

  Heavy Motor Traffic and Wear and Tear of Roads
  MR. WILLIAM KESWICK: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that during the winter of 1903–4 the ratepayers of Epsom urban district were put to the expanse of £2,500 in an endeavour to keep in repair one road used for heavy locomotive traffic; and whether, in view of the evidence before the recent Departmental Committee on Heavy Motor Traffic as to the number of roads in the United Kingdom unable to bear the strain of these loads, and of the increase in the cost of upkeep of main roads in Surrey in 1904 as compared with 1903, ascribed by the county surveyor to the increased locomotive and motor traffic, he will issue an addendum to the Heavy Motor Regulations which come into force on the 1st March giving local highway authorities the same powers over roads as those conferred upon bridge-owners.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I am aware that complaints have been made of damage by traction engines to roads in the Epsom urban district. I do not understand that these engines were, vehicles which would come under the regulations to which my hon. friend alludes, and I do not think that the evidence before me would justify my giving the highway authorities the same powers with respect to roads as those conferred with respect to bridges on persons liable to repair them.

  Fraudulent Trustees.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask Mr. Attorney-General if his attention has been called to the losses inflicted upon the community by fraudulent breaches of trust; and if he can inform the House of the number of persons convicted of this crime in the last four years; and if he proposes to take any preventive action in the matter.
  (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) I am informed that during the years 1901,

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  1902,1903, and 1904 there were convictions in twenty-two cases of prosecution of fraudulent trustees by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I cannot promise any further legislation on the subject at present.

  Sub-Land Commission—Suggested Sitting at Castletown Berehaven.
  MR. GILHOOLY: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to a proposed sitting of the Sub-Land Commission at Bantry on March 7th; whether he is aware that on the list for hearing there are forty-seven cases from Castletown Berehaven, and only seven from Bantry; and whether, in view of the fact that Castletown is thirty-five miles from Bantry, and also that the majority of the people whose cases are to be heard are poor, he will direct the Sub-Commissioners to hold a sitting at Castletown Berehaven.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) It has been found necessary to communicate with the Chairman of the Sub-Commission in respect to this Question, and I will ask the hon. Member to postpone it until Monday next.

  Work for the Unemployed.
  MR. PARTINGTON: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, with a view to providing useful work for the unemployed, he will consider the advisability of continuing the roads in Hyde Park round Kensington Gardens.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) The expediency of such an alteration in Kensington Gardens is a question upon which there has been great diversity of opinion. The First Commissioner would not be prepared to order this work without the approval of Parliament; but he must not be understood as indicating any views at present as to whether it should be carried out or not.

  Damage by Frost to Indian Corps.
  MR. DAVID MORGAN: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that damage has been done to the
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  growing crops in the Punjaub by frost, and of the danger of famine in that district in May and June, he will say what precautions are being taken to meet distress.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am aware that unusual cold weather has prevailed this year in Northern India, and that serious damage from frost has been sustained by the crops, especially in the united provinces of Agra and Oudh. In the Punjaub the injury is probably less, as the crops there are later. The Viceroy, with whom I have been in communication, informs me that there is no cause for anxiety. Should any distress unhappily arise in any local area, the local governments are fully prepared to deal with it in accordance with the provisions of the Famine Codes.

  Reinstatement of Evicted Tenants in Ireland.
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is now in a position to state with regard to the evicted tenants reinstated by the Estates Commissioners under the Act of 1903: total number of evicted tenants reinstated up to the December 31st,1904; name of each tenant; name of estate from which he had been evicted; area, former rent, and valuation of farm; county and townland where farm is situated; whether tenant was reinstated in farm from which he had been evicted or provided with new farm; full particulars in either case of the terms under which the tenant was reinstated, showing amount of annuity; and whether reinstatement was carried out in connection with or independently of sale of estate from which tenant had been evicted.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) I regret to have to ask the hon. Gentleman to postpone this Question until Friday next.

  Gun Licences in Ireland—Case of Mr. John Murphy, of Derrybrick Turlough.
  DR. AMBROSE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. John Murphy, of Derrybrick Turlough, Castlebar, county Mayo, has been refused a gun licence, which he

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  is in need of to protect his crops from vermin; if he can state any reason for the refusal, in view of Mr. Murphy's character and the fact that no charge has been made by the police; and whether he will communicate with the resident magistrate of the district on the subject.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) The application of Mr. Murphy for a licence to keep a gun was refused by the licensing officer in the exercise of the discretion vested in him by law. The Government is unable to state the reasons for the refusal, and cannot interfere in the matter as suggested.

  Comyn Kenny Estate.
  MR. ROCHE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can now state when the tenants in the neighbourhood of the Comyn Kenny Estate, in the county of Galway, will get possession of the land; and, should there be any further delay, will he see that the land is temporarily let to them until the matter is finally arranged.
  (Answered by Mr. Atkinson.) This estate has not yet been vested in the Congested Districts Board, and to prevent loss the Board has made temporary arrangements for the grazing of the lands. Whether any applications were received from neighbouring tenants for grazing will be ascertained.

  Cost of Somaliland Operations.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Secretary of State for War what has been the total cost of the military operations in Somaliland, including the items of expenditure detailed in the additional Army Estimate,1904–5; and what have been the various amounts of the Votes already granted by the House for the Somaliland Expedition out of Army Votes and the dates on which they were voted.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The total cost has been £2,494,000. The Votes already granted are:—Supplementary Estimate, March 3rd,1903, £50,100; Included in Army Estimates,1903–4, £250,000: Supple-
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  mentary Estimate, February 25th,1904, £1,600,000. Total £1,900,100.

  Treatment of Aborigines in West Australia.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government purpose making any representations to the Government of West Australia with reference to the treatment of aborigines in that country, as disclosed by the report of Dr. Roth, the Commissioner appointed to investigate this question.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I have not yet seen the report by Dr. Roth to which the hon. Member refers, but I have asked the Governor of Western Australia for a copy. I understand that it is probable that legislation will shortly be introduced in the colony dealing with the matters to which Dr. Roth calls attention.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Admiralty Land Purchase at Milcore.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that since the passing of the Land Purchase Act of 1903 the Admiralty have taken a farm on the Clinton Estate at Milcore, from which Cornelius Murphy has been evicted; and, if so, will he say what amount was paid to the agent on the estate for Mr. Cornelius Murphy's farm; whether, seeing that Michael Murphy, a tenant adjoining the farm held by Cornelius Murphy, received £700 for his goodwill of a farm purchased by the Admiralty, the case of Cornelius Murphy will be considered and compensation awarded him.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Wood-bridge): The Admiralty have taken the farm in question with other land for naval purposes. Under the award of the arbitrator the Admiralty paid to the person legally entitled the full amount of compensation as owner and occupier. So far as they are aware, no separate award was made for this particular farm. The Admiralty cannot under any circumstances be concerned with Murphy, as

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  when they took possession he had been evicted some years previously for non-payment of rent, and the land was in the occupation of the owner.
  MR GILHOOLY: Is this the way the Government are going to restore evicted tenants to their farms—by grabbing their holdings?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  The New Rifle.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state upon what date the manufacture of the new rifle was commenced and how many new rifles have been issued; also how many are now ready for issue.
  *THE SECEETAEY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast, W.): The manufacture of the components of the new rifle commenced in March,1903. 127,300 new rifles have been issued and 27,000 are ready for issue.

  Home-Service Army Recruiting.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary or State for War if he can state whether recruiting has been opened for the Home-Service Army; and, if not, when it is proposed to do so.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: As I explained to the House in debate on the Address, short-service enlistment will not be introduced until the full measure of the long-service element in the Army necessary to furnish the Indian drafts has been restored.

  Horse and Field Artillery Armament.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state whether in January,1900, the Director-General of Ordnance drew the attention of the Government to the necessity of providing a new gun, and proposed to appoint a Committee of Inquiry into the matter; and whether a full year elapsed before the Committee was appointed.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: In January,1900, the Director-General of Ordnance proposed that a special Committee of
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  officers who had experience in the South African War, with General Marshall as president, should be appointed to consider the re-armament of the Horse and Field Artillery as soon as they could be recalled from South Africa. General Marshall arrived in England in December,1900, and the Committee was appointed in January,1901.

  The New Guns.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state whether the designs for the new guns were ready in July,1901, and the trial guns not ordered until February,1902; and when were the experimental batteries ordered.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The conditions for preparation of designs of new guns for trial were formulated in July,1901, and designs were called for the same month. The designs were received in October,1901, and numerous modifications had to be discussed and arranged. The orders for eight trial guns were given in February,1902. The trial guns were delivered in August and September,1902, and subjected to various trials. None were satisfactory, and modified designs were prepared to which the experimental batteries were ordered in December,1902.

  British Colonies and the Sugar Bounties.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade do His Majesty's Government propose to take any steps in order to carry out the abolition of sugar bounties, the equalisation of the conditions of competition between the beet and cane sugar, and the promotion of the consumption of sugar declared by the Sugar Convention to be the object of that Convention, by representing to those British self-governing Colonies which have been declared to give a bounty, viz., Canada, Australia, and South Africa, the propriety of abolishing those bounties.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOE THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON, Warwick and Leamington): All the colonies named are large importers of sugar, and their exports are inappreciable. No.

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  representations of the kind suggested appear necessary.

  Colonial Representative Institutions.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will lay Papers showing the methods in each case by which representative institutions have been conferred upon British Colonies since the accession of the late Queen Victoria, whether by Letters Patent or by statutory enactment.
  MR. LYTTELTON: If the hon. Member will move for a Return, I shall be prepared to give it.

  Chinese in the Transvaal—Secret Societies.
  MR. WHITLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has any information relating to the reported arrest of thirty-two Chinamen on the Simmer and Jack Mine on the charge of forming a secret society; whether the society was in the nature of a trade union; and what punishment was inflicted.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I have not received information as to this reported occurrence, but I am making inquiry.
  MR. WHITLEY: I will furnish the right hon. Gentleman with the report on which the Question is based, as he appears to be very late in getting information.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: Is there anything in the terms of employment which makes it illegal for these men to join a secret society?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Reciprocity Treaty between America and Cuba—Effect on British Trade.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has any reply been received from the United States Government to the representations which had been made by His Majesty's Government in February,1903, as to the injurious effect upon British trade and upon the sugar industries in the West Indies, of the Reciprocity Treaty between the
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  United States and the Government of Cuba; if so, can he say what was the nature of that reply; and when will the correspondence be laid upon the Table of the House.
  *THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOE FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY, Kensington, S.): Representations were made to the Government of the United States in 1903 with regard to the injury that might result to British trade from the operation of the Reciprocity Treaty, but not with regard to its effect upon the trade of the West Indies, as these colonies cannot claim the benefits of the Commercial Treaty of 1815. The representations made by His Majesty's Government were unsuccessful owing to the view which, as my hon. friend is aware, the Government of the United States has frequently expressed that a treaty right to the most-favoured-nation treatment does not entitle its possessor to participate in special privileges granted to others in return for reciprocal concessions.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Will the noble Lord lay the correspondence on the Table?
  *EARL PERCY: I am not sure that this correspondence is very important, but in regard to the question generally I will consider what can be done. There was a Paper containing the views of the United States Government on the subject laid in 1885.

  Papers on Macedonia.
  MR. CHANNING: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the later despatches of the Secretary of State since August to foreign countries, especially to France, Italy, and Austria relating to Macedonia and the necessary reforms, will be presented shortly to Parliament.
  EARL PERCY: It is impossible to lay Papers relating to negotiations which are still in progress, but any information which can be made public will be presented without delay.
  MR. CHANNING: Will the despatches in question be found inconsistent with the noble Lord's speech the other night?
  EARL PERCY: I do not think the hon. Member will find any inconsistency, but he had better wait till the despatches are laid.

  French Public Works—Foreign-made Material Excluded.
  COLONEL DENNY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is he aware of an Amendment to the Budget Law,1905, which is being presented in the French Chamber of Deputies, and which would have the effect of excluding absolutely and entirely, from all public works to be executed by the French Government or by the local authorities in France, every material not made entirely in France and solely of materials of French origin.
  EARL PERCY: I have no information of the facts alleged, but I will make inquiry.

  North Eastern Railway—Fatality at Backworth.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, on the 20th instant, a young woman named Alice Maughan, residing at Felling, was found lying dead across the electrified rail on the North Eastern Railway Company's line near Backworth, Northumberland; and will he call for a report on the subject, and state whether the electrified rails on this line were passed by the Board of Trade inspector as sufficiently protected.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): Yes, Sir. This accident was notified to the Board of Trade by the railway company, and the Board have appointed one of their inspecting officers to inquire into and report upon the circumstances. The arrangements for working this line by electricity have not been "passed" by the Board of Trade, the railway company having adopted the new method of traction on their own responsibility and without obtaining specific statutory powers involving preliminary inspection on behalf of the Board. The precautions adopted for the protection of the company's servants
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  and the public have, however, come under the observation of the Board's officers when holding inquiries into previous similar accidents on this "electrified" line, and the company have informed the Board that they have complied with the recommendations made in the officers' reports on those accidents. I shall be happy to supply the hon. Member with a copy of the report.

  Irish Land Stock.
  MR. WHITLEY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of the loss that will be involved by the repayment at par of the two recent issues of Irish Land Stock at a discount; and is any provision being made in the Estimates for a sinking fund to meet the loss when repayment falls due.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): The two issues of guaranteed 2¾ per cent. stock, amounting to £11,000,000, are expected to yield cash to a total amount of £9,691,421 6s. 8d. The loss involved by a repayment at par would therefore be £1,308,578 13s. 4d. In accordance with Sections 36 and 47 of the Irish Land Act,1903, annual provision to meet this difference is being made, partly out of the moneys of the guarantee fund and partly out of the annual Vote for the Land Commission.
  MR. WHITLEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the annual payments are on these issues?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I must ask for notice of that Question.

  South African Railways.
  MR. WHITLEY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has received payment of the £1,250,000 due from the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies on account of the railways handed over to them at the close of the war; and, if not, what steps he is taking in the matter.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: In accordance with an agreement entered into by His Majesty's Government and the Colonial Governments, a lump sum of

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  about £1,450,000 will be handed over by the Crown Agents in satisfaction of all claims (including that on account of the Railways), which the Home Government may have against the Colonies; and the payment of the bulk of the money will be made almost immediately.
  MR. WHITLEY: Is the money to be raised by a loan?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. When I used the words "in satisfaction of all claims" I meant all claims of the character referred to by the hon. Member. It has nothing to do with the War Contribution Loan.
  SIR ROBERT REID: Will this money be paid out of the £35,000,000 loan?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to ask the Colonial Secretary? The matter is more within his knowledge and sphere of influence than mine. All that I am concerned to know is that the money is to be paid, and that the British Exchequer will receive it.
  MR. WHITLEY: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that this sum is in satisfaction only of all claims in connection with the railways?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. It includes the claims with respect to the railways, and other claims for such things as stocks and stores supplied.
  MR. WHITLEY: What is the total amount of the claims that have been compounded for this sum?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I must ask for notice of that Question.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman present Papers showing the particulars?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I will consider that, if I cannot give all the necessary information in answer to an unstarred Question.

  London Telephone System.
  SIR THOMAS DEWAR: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will state what progress has been made with the establishment of the London telephone system, and the annual amount payable by subscribers for rentals at the termination of last year.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY, Lancashire, Westhoughton): Eleven Post Office Telephone Exchanges had been opened in the London Area on December 31st last, and the number of subscribers' telephones working in connection with them was 22,181. The amount of the annual rentals payable for the use of these instruments, and of the message fees received during the year 1904, was £156,485.

  Van Accidents in the Metropolis.
  SIR THOMAS DEWAR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state how the number of accidents with covered vans in the streets of the metropolis since the introduction of the new by-law on the 1st May last compares with the corresponding period for the previous year.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's): I could not give the figures for the exact periods mentioned in the Question without special inquiry, but the figures for the year 1904 were 1,389 accidents, of which thirty-four were fatal, as against 1,425 in 1903, of which twenty-nine were fatal. It has to be remembered, however, that the bylaw was not in operation during the first four months of 1904.

  North Sea Fisheries Investigation.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether Papers showing the result of the North Sea Fisheries Investigation will be laid upon the Table.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH, Derbyshire, W.): No Papers showing the results of the International Investigation can yet be presented, as the

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  investigation is still going on. The reports showing the share taken by this country in the work, as far as it has gone, will shortly be laid upon the Table.

  Equivalent Grant in the Highland Crofting Counties.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether he is aware that the Government grant known as the Equivalent Grant has hitherto been devoted by county councils in the Highland crofting counties in the relief of district road rates and the construction and maintenance of works of public utility such as footpaths, and will provision be made in the Education (Scotland) Bill exempting the crofting counties from the operation of any clause designed to deprive county councils of the power of determining the disposal of money at present received under the Equivalent Grant.
  THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON, Glasgow, Bridgton): The Secretary for Scotland is aware of the facts as stated, but cannot make any declaration in anticipation of the Education (Scotland) Bill which will shortly be introduced.

  Culloden Estate Leaseholders and the Crofters Act.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland has now received a copy of resolutions unanimously adopted at a recent meeting of crofter leaseholders and other tenants on the Culloden Estate, in the Ferintosh district of Ross-shire, deploring the continued exclusion of lease-holders from the benefits of the Crofters Act, and urging that all tenants whose rents do not exceed £30 per annum should receive the benefits of the Act; and will he state what action it is proposed to take in the matter.
  MR. SCOTT DICKSON: The Secretary for Scotland is indebted to the hon. Member for a copy of the resolutions referred to, but he does not feel under any obligation to take action in this matter.

  Watergrasshill Prosecutions.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether
  20
  he is aware that at the Castletown Berehaven Petty Sessions some time ago a number of men charged with riot, assaulting the sheriff, and unlawful assembly, were tried and dealt with summarily; that two resident magistrates adjudicated in the cases; that Mr. Henry Wright, who prosecuted in the Watergrasshill cases, also prosecuted at Castletown Berehaven; and, seeing that he did not then object to the action of the magistrates, can he explain any difference in the cases tried at the petty sessions referred to.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.): The hon. Member is under a complete misapprehension. In the Castletown Berehaven case, the accused parties having expressed regret for what they had done and entered into recognisances to keep the peace and be of good behaviour, the Crown withdrew the prosecution. The magistrate did not adjudicate on any charge at all. In the Watergrasshill case the justices assembled in obedience to a Writ of Mandamus commanding them to adjudicate on the particular application before them, that was, to return the accused for trial or refuse to return them. This they did not do, but proceeded to adjudicate summarily on a charge not before them.

  Duties of the Irish Board of Agriculture.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a feeling exists in county Longford and other parts of Ireland that such alterations should be made in the powers and duties of the Board of Agriculture and Technical Instruction as would enable them to deal with questions of drainage, afforestation, and other public works; and will he consider the advisability of introducing a short amending Bill in this direction.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The Department has already taken steps for the development of forestry. It has acquired lands with a view to the establishment of a school of forestry and the carrying out of operations in forestry. It would not, however, be practicable for the Department, with the funds at its

  21
  disposal, to embark on any extensive scheme of afforestation. With regard to arterial drainage, the Department has no funds at its disposal for undertaking works of this character. I cannot give any pledge to introduce legislation such as suggested.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Could not the money now spent in technical instruction be devoted to better purposes?
  MR. KILBRIDE: In what part of Ireland is there a school of forestry?
  MR. ATKINSON: I must ask for notice of any further Questions.

  Irish Land Purchase Inspectors.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state how many inspectors have been appointed under the Land Purchase Act,1903, the religion, nationality, addresses, and previous experience of those officials, and in whom the appointments are vested.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The Government has no knowledge of the religion or nationality of these inspectors, and cannot undertake to make inquiry in the matter. A Return is in preparation, however, and will shortly be laid on the Table, giving information as to the names and qualifications of these officers in the form of Parliamentary Paper, No. 151, of the session of 1902.
  MR. CULLINAN: Will the Return also include the names of the surveyors?
  MR. ATKINSON: I think not.

  Strabane Teachers' Association's Resolution.
  MR. HEMPHILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a copy of a resolution unanimously adopted at a meeting of the Strabane Teachers' Association, at Strabane, on January 21st,1905; and, if so, whether any steps have been or will be taken to redress the grievances
  22
  of the national school teachers in Ireland as respectfully demanded in that resolution.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The resolution has been received. The question of the allocation in Ireland of the amount provided as an equivalent of the aid grant for education in England has been frequently discussed in this House. My right hon. friend has no further statement to make in the matter at present.

  Irish Agricultural Department—Catholic Clerks in the Veterinary Branch.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, having regard to the fact that it has been alleged that the Catholic clerks in the Veterinary Branch of the Irish Agricultural Department had repeated in a communication to the secretary in May last several misstatements of fact, he will obtain specific instances of the misstatements contained in the communication in question.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYXDHAM): This is a matter affecting the internal discipline of the Department, with which it is competent to deal, and I see no necessity for asking the Department to furnish the information referred to. I must refer to the reply given on August 4th last by my right hon. friend to a similar Question † of the hon. Member.

  Newry—Warrant against H. J. Living- stone.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I bag to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if a warrant is in existence for the arrest of H. J. Livingstone of Newry; and, if so, under what circumstances it was issued, and for what reason its execution has been suspended, seeing that the authorities are in possession of his present address.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): A warrant was issued on the information on oath of one Michael Fearon, who alleged that Livingstone had, as executor of his (Fearon's) father, embezzled
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxix.,995.

  23
  and misapplied part of the assets. On further investigation it was ascertained that there was no evidence whatever forthcoming to sustain the charge, and in consequence the warrant has not been executed.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Did this man embezzle the funds and by whose authority was the warrant suspended? Who stopped the execution of the warrant?
  MR. ATKINSON: The Crown did.
  MR. MACVEAGH: On what ground?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The Question on the Paper has been answered.

  Irish Butter Frauds in British Markets.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the frauds constantly being practised in England and other countries in articles of Irish manufacture, especially in Irish butter, with injury to their sale, he will take steps to have an inspector or inspectors appointed in connection with the Department of Agriculture in Ireland to look after and protect Irish industries in British markets.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The Department has already on its staff a number of inspectors who devote constant attention to the matter mentioned in the Question. These officers at intervals visit different centres in Great Britain. It is not at present proposed to appoint an inspector who would permanently reside in England. This matter was fully dealt with at the last meeting of the Council of Agriculture held on February 9th.

  Alleged United Irish League Outrages at Dingle.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the treatment to which Bridget Moran, of Dingle, county Kerry, has been subjected by the local branch of the United Irish League for eighteen months, and to the fact that her house has been maliciously burnt and her stock destroyed because, when the middle
  24
  lease of her premises expired and her immediate landlord refused to pay the increase demanded by the head landlord, she, to save herself from eviction, took a lease of the premises at the rent which was demanded from her immediate landlord; and, if so, will he state what steps he has taken or will take in the matter.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): It is true that Mrs. Moran took a lease from the head landlord substantially under the circumstances mentioned. Disputes subsequently arose owing to Mrs. Moran having employed a man named McGuire, who was not a regular tradesman, to knock down and rebuild her house. It is alleged that the United Irish League subsequently interfered in this trade dispute. Mrs. Moran's house was subsequently burned down. She applied to the County Court Judge for compensation for malicious injury, and his decision in her favour is now under appeal. Under the circumstances I cannot go more fully into the facts. The police have at all times been giving close attention to the case and doing everything in their power to preserve the peace.

  Irish Officials as Handwriting Experts.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the terms of the censure passed on T. P. Nolan by Mr. Justice Kenny, in the course of the trial of the Aungier Street Post Office case in Dublin, on February 17th; whether, seeing that Mr. Nolan was examined on behalf of the Crown in the prosecution of the staff of the Irish People newspaper in September,1902, and that he is a Civil servant, he will say whether there are any special terms or conditions attached to his appointment permitting him to devote part of his time to his official duties and part to testifying as an expert in handwriting; whether he receives any remuneration for evidence given as to handwriting, and whether any deduction is made from his pay as a Civil servant for time thus occupied; and whether it is proposed to continue his services in the dual capacity.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): I have seen a newspaper report of the observations of the Judge, but am unable

  25
  to say whether it is accurate. The reply to the second inquiry is in the affirmative, Dr. Nolan is employed as a clerk in the Department of the Local Government Board. The only regulation bearing on the subject of his employment, so far as I am aware, is one which prohibits a Civil servant from accepting any part in the management of any society, or any trading, commercial, or financial company, which would require his attendance at any time between the hours of 10 a. m. and 6 p. m. Dr. Nolan is required to devote his entire time to the services of the Department from 10 a. m. to 5 p. m. or such later hour as may be necessary, except during his annual vacation or leave of absence. No deduction is made from his salary when he is absent on leave.
  MR. MACVEAGH: What right has an official who is supposed to serve the country in the Local Government Board from 10 a. m. to 5 p. m. to go up and down the country giving evidence at trials?
  MR. ATKINSON: The whole question is under consideration.

  Kerry Fair Rent Appeals.
  MB. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that county Kerry appeals before the Chief Land Commission to have fair rents fixed, which have been lodged five years ago, are still unheard; and whether, in view of this state of affairs, steps will be taken to have the cases heard, and the fair rents determined.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The last list of fair rent appeals heard in the county Kerry contained all cases in which the appeals were lodged prior to May 1st,1901. A sitting for the hearing of further appeals from the county has been provisionally arranged to be held at Killarney on the 27th of next June.

  Trinity College Tenantry.
  MR. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state when the
  26
  Commission appointed to inquire into the relations between Trinity College and, their tenants will make their Report; and whether, when the Report is made, it will be issued as a Parliamentary Paper for the information and use of Members of the House.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The Commissioners hope to complete their Report before the end of the month. The question of issuing the Report as a Parliamentary Paper will be considered when it has been received.

  White Estate, Bantry.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. W. Guest Lane, a land agent, has been appointed by the Estates Commissioners to inquire into the cases of the evicted tenants on the White Estate, near Bantry; and whether, in view of the attitude of this gentleman towards some of the tenants, and the fact that he stated to one tenant named James Leary that the man who had taken his farm and resided on it for twenty-three years had the best right to it, he will advise that another inspector be sent on the estate referred to.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The hon. Member has not been correctly informed. The firm of Messrs. Guest, Lane and Co., to which the Question presumably refers, are the solicitors having carriage of the estate and are not in the employment of the Commissioners.

  Irish Model School Fees.
  MR. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state when the Treasury first demanded any and what portion of the school fees collected from the pupils in Irish model schools, and on what grounds was that demand made; what proportion of these fees went to the Treasury and what proportion to the teachers: are these fees in the nature of local aid to education, and what is the total amount of these fees which the Treasury has obtained from the date of their first demand to March 31st,1904.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM): The model schools have been established out of funds provided by Parliament. In 1868 the amount of fees received from pupils in excess of the emoluments of the teaching staff was paid into the Imperial Exchequer. In 1876 an arrangement was made with the Treasury by which a sum of £2,000 per annum became payable to the Exchequer out of these fees, the surplus, if any, being distributable among the teachers. In recent years, however, the fees collected have not reached the sum of £2,000. The payment into the Exchequer is shown in the Annual Estimates as an Appropriation in Aid of the Vote for Public Education. The total amount of the Appropriations in Aid so realised to March 31st,1904, is £62,447.

  Department of Agriculture—Staff.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in a recent interview with the chief clerk of the Department of Agriculture an attempt was made to induce one of the Catholic clerks of the Veterinary Branch to dissociate himself from the statements made in a joint memorandum addressed to the secretary in May last, setting forth grievances under which he and certain other Catholic gentlemen laboured; whether, with that avowed intention and with the stated object of removing this clerk from his colleagues and co-signatories, he was forthwith transferred to the Fisheries Branch of the Department; and whether he will state what steps he proposes taking to secure that these clerks shall not in future be interfered with in bringing under the Department's notice the disabilities from which they suffer.
  MR. ATKINSON (for Mr. WYNDHAM):On January 7th the chief clerk verbally communicated to the member of the staff referred to the order of the Department, already determined upon, transferring him to the Fisheries Branch. In the course of conversation with this officer the chief clerk suggested to him the unwisdom of continuing to participate in a line of action that had been censured by the Department. This advice was tendered in the most friendly manner and was in no way dependent on the order of
  28
  the Department transferring the clerk to another branch of the office. The Department is at all times ready to give sympathetic consideration to the legitimate claims of members of its staff, and there is no foundation for the suggestion that it has acted to the detriment of its officers.

  Currygranny Postal Arrangements.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the complaint of Mr. Geelan, of Currygranny, county Longford, that, in consequence of the refusal of the Post Office authorities to deliver his letters from the Newtownforbes office, he does not receive his correspondence till 11. 30 o'clock in the morning, whilst the postman from Newtownforbes passes his gate at 9 a. m. ; and will he now direct a delivery to Currygranny from Newtownforbes instead of from Johnston's Bridge as at present.
  LORD STANLEY: I have had inquiry made on this subject, and I find that it is only when a bog can be crossed by the postman from Newtownforbes that he passes near Mr. Geelan's house. To extend his delivery regularly to that house and other neighbouring houses would involve additional expense which, I regret to say, I should not be justified in authorising.

  Edgeworthstown Parcels Delivery.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has directed that a mid-day parcel delivery take place in Edgeworthstown immediately after the arrival of the mid-day trains at that town.
  LORD STANLEY: I am glad to say that, it has been found practicable to arrange for a parcel delivery at Edgeworthstown at about mid-day. The service will begin in a few days.

  Drumglass School, Dungannon.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if any, and if so what, progress has been made with the preparation of the revised plans for Drumglass School at Dungannon, county Tyrone; how many draughtsmen have been employed in making the

  29
  difficulty they have encountered which has made it impossible for them to make a simple plan for an ordinary national school in two years.
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: This case is delayed pending the decision on the question of the general revision of the estimates for national schools. Steps are being taken to expedite a settlement of the matter.

  Lord Milner.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether Lord Milner has resigned or intends to resign.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I have said before that Lord Milner said long ago, to the Government's great regret, that he could not go on.

NEW BILLS.
  PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
  "To amend the Public Health Acts," presented by Sir Alfred Hickman; supported by Sir Albert Rollit, Sir Thomas Wrightson, and Sir James Heath; to be read a second time upon Wednesday,15th March, and to be printed. [Bill 71]
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES ACTS (EXTENSION) BILL.
  "To extend the Public Libraries Acts to counties," presented by Sir James Rankin; supported by Mr. Bryce, Mr. Kenyon, Mr. Brynmor Jones, Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Samuel Evans, and Mr. Bull; to be read a second time upon Wednesday,12th April, and to be printed. [Bill 72.]
  ACCIDENTS (MINES AND FACTORIES) BILL.
  "To amend the Law relating to Returns and Notification of Accidents in Mines, Quarries, Factories, and Workshops," presented by Mr. Cochrane; supported by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas and Mr. Bonar Law; to be read a second time upon Friday,10th March, and to be printed. [Bill 73.]
  GOVERNMENT SHIPS BILL.
  "To make provision with respect to Ships which belong to His Majesty, or are held on behalf of or for the benefit of the Crown, but do not form part of His Majesty's Navy," presented by Mr. Pretyman; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 74.]
  NAVAL LANDS (VOLUNTEERS) BILL.
  "To extend the Military Lands Acts to Naval and Marine Volunteers," presented by Mr. Pretyman; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 75.]

  KING'S SPEECH (MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS).
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Main Question [14th February], "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign,
  "We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament. "—(Mr. Mount.)
  Question again proposed.
  *MR. BUCHANAN, in moving the, Amendment to the Address which stood in his name, said it might be suggested that his Motion was a very wide one and that it was by no means a new one. He admitted it was impossible for any one in his position to do more than touch upon the main features of his subject. It was not a new Motion in substance, because the subject was not a new one, but in these days it was necessary to continually repeat the views it was desired to advance in order to enforce them on the public mind. He should, therefore, make no apology if, during the course of his remarks, he dealt with subjects which had been debated on previous occasions. He hoped he would not be met with the argument, or rather with the excuse that it would be better to wait till the Estimates were presented.

  31
  He would have been very glad indeed had the Estimates for the current year been before them, because that would have facilitated his task. But it was well known that such a Motion as he had on the Paper could not be discussed on the proposition that Mr. Speaker do leave the Chair on any branch of the Estimates, and, therefore, no opportunity would arise for him on going into Committee of Supply. Anyone who chose to read his Amendment would recognise that it raised the question of the past policy and expenditure of the Government during the many years they had been in office, rather than particular details of its present policy and still less of its future policy. The Prime Minister had suggested why not wait for the Budget in order to discuss those points. No doubt, on the Budget, the general financial policy of the Government could be raised. But he would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer were they to have a Budget this year? Were they sure that Parliament would continue in session till the Budget was presented? Further, it was obvious to anyone who considered the political situation that the Budget for the present year would be in its main features a dissolution Budget, and the attention of the House, therefore, would be concentrated upon details rather than upon general principles, and, of course, the most interesting question at that time would be the future financial policy of the Government. His Amendment really dealt with a question of a wider character, which was eminently suited to the occasion of an Amendment to the Address, because it impugned, or was meant to practically impugn, the whole trend of the financial policy of the Government and of the Party opposite during the five or ten years they had been responsible for the financial interests of the country. This had been one of the subjects very largely debated in the country during the past two years. It had held a very prominent place indeed in the discussions which had gone on at various by-elections, and he believed that hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House would be wanting in their duty if they did not take that, the first opportunity, of bringing it under discussion in the House of Commons.
  32
  Now he came to the subject-matter of his Amendment. What were the main counts of the indictment against the Government? They were these—(1) the general question of the excessive increase of expenditure; (2) as a consequence, the increased burden on the people, the increase of taxation, bringing with it distress, depression of trade, depreciation of capital, and many other consequences in its train; (3) the laxity of financial methods, which had become the practice of the Government; and (4) the reckless piling up of debt year after year, utterly irrespective of the consequences, and without any due or adequate provision for its discharge.
  With regard to the first count, the excessive increase of national expenditure, it was confessed in all quarters of the House and generally throughout the country, and the figures on the subject were quite familiar to them all. They knew that since 1898 the net revenue of the country had gone up from £90,000,000 to £140,000,000. These figures were taken from what was known as the "Fowler" Return, and he was simply quoting round figures. The growth had been enormous, and was absolutely without a parallel in our past political and financial history. Let them look at the previous decennial periods 1874–84 and 1884–94. They would find that the decennial increase was in one case £13,000,000 and in the other £11,000,000, whereas during the last decennial period the expenditure of the country had gone up by no less than £50,000,000. They knew that the great increase had been in naval and military expenditure. Again he would take the figures from the "Fowler" Return, although that Return did not give the full amount of our naval and military expenditure. In 1894–5 our naval and military expenditure amounted to £35,000,000. In 1903–4 it had gone up to £71,000,000; it had more than doubled. Let them compare that with the expenditure in preceding decennial periods. Between 1874–84 the increase was £6,000,000, between 1884–94 it was £5,000,000; but between 1894 and 1903 the increase was £36,000,000. That was to say, that while formerly this branch of our expenditure had increased at the rate of £500,000 per annum, it was now increasing at the rate of no less than £4,000,, 000 annually.

  33
  Surely that amply justified his first contention that our expenditure had been excessive in its character, and that the rate of increase had been too great. It was quite obvious that any such increase of expenditure could not possibly be met by any ordinary growth of revenue. The Party opposite during their tenure of office had had, one might fairly say, five fat years and five comparatively lean years. During the first five years they were in office they had large surpluses, the taxes were yielding more year after year, and the revenue was increasing by leaps and bounds. Indeed, the ordinary increase of revenue was unexampled during the first three or four years the Government were in office; it was an increase of something like £9,, 000,, 000 in the automatic expansion of ordinary revenue. They also inherited from their predecessors in office something like £3,, 000,, 000 or £4,, 000,, 000 extra revenue from the death duties introduced by Sir William Harcourt. Thus they had this great advantage, that during their first four years of office they had an expanding and increasing revenue—increasing at a rate unexampled in our previous financial history. Then, undoubtedly, a change began to come over the scene. About the year 1900 the taxes ceased to be buoyant; they became almost stationary; the yield for each penny of income-tax, which had been steadily rising from £2,000,000 to £2,500,000, became stationary in 1901. In the same way, in another branch of our revenue, the consumption of tea, which also had been steadily increasing year by year, gradually became stationary, and now it was actually showing symptoms of declining. As they were all aware, other important articles from a taxation point of view—beer and spirits—were no longer so elastic and so remunerative as they had been.
  Without going into details he would ask—what would have been a prudent course for any Government to pursue under these circumstances? What would have been the ordinary prudent course for a private individual if the same fortune had befallen him? Surely a man in commercial business who suddenly found his profits largely increasing would have recognised that in
  34
  business there were ups and downs and that large increases of profits were not likely to continue perpetually. He would have shown his wisdom by not spending every farthing of his increased profits, but would have endeavoured to keep something for a rainy day. He would have paid off any mortgages on the business and would not have immediately and permanently increased his regular expenditure. But what had the Government and the Party opposite done? They had done exactly the reverse. Mainly under the leadership, not of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, but of one of his predecessors the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol, it had spent every sixpence of revenue that had come in in these times of prosperity, and it had spent more than had come in. Instead of making a substantial and special effort to reduce debt they had increased the national establishments and permanently added to our scale of expenditure. They had gone to work as if the good times were to continue for ever. But then came the war. He did not propose to discuss the policy of the war, to which he was opposed, for that was not the proper occasion. All he would deal with were the financial effects of the war. This House and the country undoubtedly raised a large amount of money for the war, both by taxation and by loans. They responded freely to the call, notwithstanding there had been bad miscalculations—financial as well as military and political—miscalculations which they overlooked. Surely under these circumstances they had some claim for consideration at the hands of the Government. They had a right to say, "While we pay this large extra expenditure and while we bear these heavy extra burdens the Government should take care that our ordinary expenditure should not at the same time be continually increasing." Was that done? Not a bit of it. The expenditure, apart from the war, went on increasing during the war at an even greater rate than previously to the war, and now that the war had been concluded for more than two years the people were waking up to find that the new taxes, put on primarily and ostensibly for war purposes, and intended only to be

  35
  of a temporary character, were permanently saddled upon their shoulders for peace purposes. Even worse was their fate last year, when the present Chancellor of the Exchequer not only retained the increased taxes, but added to them.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): I replaced part of the taxation which had been taken off.
  *MR. BUCHANAN*MR. BUCHANAN said he thought that when the war ended the people of this country would have been prepared to continue the great bulk of the war taxation for a certain period on certain conditions. They had a right to expect when the war came to an end that those responsible for the finances of the country should lay before the House of Commons some scheme for effectively reducing the burdens which had been imposed in consequence of it; that they should have a real systematic and well thought out proposal for diminishing the burdens of war debt and taxation. But no such proposal was made either by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer or his predecessor, with perhaps one exception, the promise of £30,000,000 from the Transvaal, which probably never would be received.
  He had already pointed out that in the prosperous years the Government did not pay their way. That brought him to the third branch of his indictment—the lax methods of the finance they had introduced. There were many such new methods, he would deal with only one, viz. :—the evil practice of supplementary budgets for naval and military purposes, which had enabled them to obtain large sums of money over which officials of the spending Departments had extra wide powers, and of which the House of Commons, as representatives of the people, had little knowledge, and still less control. They had borrowed money for expenditure which should have been met out of revenue, and by so doing they had thrown part of the burden of our own extravagance on the shoulders of the coming generation. He was, of course, referring to their policy in dealing with naval and military works by a system of Loan
  36
  Bills—a policy which was being extended to other branches of our administration. He quite recognised that such a policy might be defensible, and was, indeed, defensible on special occasions and for special emergencies. Indeed, when the question was raised, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer always turned round and sought to close their mouths by quoting the precedent of the Naval Works Act of Lord Spencer in 1895. But the gravamen of the charge now was that that which might have been defensible or justifiable on a special occasion had now become an established and growing practice in our finance. Military and Naval Works Acts were regularly introduced every two years. They had added about £5,000,000 to our annual naval and military expenditure, and up to the present, something like £25,000,000 to our debt, an addition which was likely to become £50,000,000 or £60,000,000 if all the schemes embodied in these Acts were carried out. But the loans had been so entirely diverted from the purposes for which they were originally intended as to have become mere additions to Army and Navy expenditure. When these Bills were first introduced, the noble Lord the Member for Ealing and Sir William Harcourt made a great point that if they were defensible at all they should be for special defence and permanent works to be completed within a limited time and cost. All these limitations had gone by the board. There was an even worse development, for, instead of being used for permanent works alone, money was being raised by loan for dredging and electric lighting, which surely ought not to be treated as capital expenditure. That was to say, under the Works Acts of 1901 and 1903, the money borrowed was no longer applied to specific works of a large and definite character, but to general objects of naval utility, which, according to sound principles of finance, should be provided for in the annual Estimates. The schedule of the Military Works Act was even worse. Various military works in connection with the Army reform schemes of the past, now condemned, were paid for under a Loans Act without the knowledge of the people of this country. Grants for Volunteer ranges for sums as small as £4 or £6 were

  37
  not paid for outright and charged to revenue, but the money was borrowed and repayment spread over thirty years. Was that a sound financial policy for a rich country like this? The system was absurd and wasteful, and took away the control of expenditure from the House of Commons and the country. This was practically the view of the Public Accounts Committee, who last year reported on the subject in these words—
  "Your Committee entertain serious doubts as to the financial method by which naval works are provided for by means of loans. The same remark applies, of course, to military and other similar loan services. For special works of permanent character and large cost, it may, as an exceptional measure, be desirable to provide by loan, repayable within a limited number of years. But the resort of such procedure should be the exception and not the rule. In recent years annual and biennial Military and Naval Works Acts have become a regular part of the military and naval finance. Your Committee would deprecate the continuance of this practice. They believe that it would be more in accordance with sound rules of finance, and would tend to simplify the national accounts and maintain an efficient control over expenditure, if the bulk of these services were included, as formerly, in the annual Estimates. "
  That was good sound commonsense and good finance, and he hoped that the views thus expressed would before long be adopted by the Government of this country.
  The fourth count of the indictment he would leave subsequent speakers to develop. It was the reckless piling up of debt by the Government, and the absence of any real attempt to reduce it. When they came into power in 1895 the floating debt was £8,000,000, now it was over £80,000,000. All the debt reductions of the past thirty years had gone for nought, our funded debt had gone back to about the same figure as in 1880, and, so far from making any substantial reduction of the debt, we were increasing it. The discharge of debt which we professed to make by means of Sinking Funds and Terminable Annuities was more than counterbalanced by the creation of new debt under the Naval and Military Works Acts.
  And now as to the cause of all this. There was an old quotation from Mr. Disraeli, "Expenditure depends on
  38
  policy." That was a fundamental principle of politics, but there was one thing more expensive than a new policy, and that was a perpetual changing of policy. They could find many instances in the history of the present Government of the way in which our financial burdens had been increased both by new policies and by changes of policy. The Agricultural Rating Act, the endowment of church schools, the Tithe Rent Charge Act, the Licensing Act, and Irish Legislation, all these increased the burdens of the people and left an indelible mark on the finances of the country. And what about our foreign and colonial policy? In South Africa we had 20,000 British soldiers to maintain at an extra expense of something like £2,000,000 per annum as compared with some 5,000 before the war. Did the Government intend permanently to keep that large body of troops there at our expense? Besides that we were spending in South Africa over £3,000,000 in providing permanent barrack accommodation. That was a striking comment on our expressed desire to give the new colonies representative, and eventually responsible, government. If a generous measure of representative and responsible government were promptly given it would do much to reconcile them to their position, and would, if they were made responsible for their own defence, save large amounts to the Exchequer of this country. Look elsewhere in Africa. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1897 complained that at that date there was an increased charge of £1,000,000 per annum on the Exchequer for Central East and West Africa. Since 1897 that charge had more than doubled. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean the Prime Minister in March of last year told them that the Colonial Office had an army of 17,000 men, the Foreign Office 4,000, all mainly in Africa, and the charge for these two military forces, outside the control of the War Office, and borne by the Civil Service Estimates, amounted to over £2,000,000 per annum. This was a new charge since the Party opposite came into power, and here there was distinctly room for retrenchment.
  Again, a very interesting table was given annually in the Army Estimates showing the number of men serving outside

  39
  the United Kingdom, but not in India. That meant the men in the Colonies and Egypt. A comparison of the number now as compared with ten years ago gave some remarkable results. In the early nineties there were in round figures 37,000 men serving outside the United Kingdom, and the cost was between £2,000,000 and £2,500,000. According to last year's Estimates there were 72,000, and the cost was within £1,000 of £6,000,000. Of course, that included the garrison in South Africa, but it would be found that this was an increase all over. Surely that was due largely to the policy pursued during the past ten years by the Government. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would say "Oh! We are going to remedy all that, or a good part of it. "Some interesting information had been lately given by the Secretary for the Colonies that the defences of Halifax and Esquimault were going to be taken over by the Canadian Government. It was a step in the right direction. That was a form of colonial help of Imperial expenditure of which he highly approved, much better than begging for naval contributions from the Colonies. Another important statement was made with regard to Bermuda and the West Indian garrisons. The garrison of Bermuda was to be diminished, roughly speaking, by a half, some changes were to be made at Jamaica, and the St. Lucia garrison was to be withdrawn altogether. The garrison in Bar-badoes was also to be withdrawn. So far so good. But how did this illustrate the point about expenditure being dependent upon changes of policy. What had we been doing in all these places right up to the present year? We had been spending money hand over hand in all these places on permanent military and naval works, and we were not going to get a penny back from the Canadian Government or the West Indian Colonies. From the figures given by the Financial Secretary with regard to Bermuda, Jamaica, St. Lucia, and Halifax, we had spent £2,000,000 in the past ten years, and of that sum more than half was spent in the last three years. Expenditure had been going on there during the current year up to the very moment of this change of policy. Whilst he for one welcomed the change he
  40
  thought it showed a certain want of consistency of purpose and a want of thinking out the military and strategic problems before us, and that had made us go so far in the wrong direction. If this was thinking Imperially, which was so often recommended, he would say "Heaven preserve the finances of the country," because it was clear that the cultivation of that particular form of thought was one which cost the pockets of the people of this country very dear indeed.
  In connection with the change of policy in the Navy it was announced that 130 ships were to be knocked out of the active list. Many of these ships were reckoned in the present year as fit for war purposes, and were repaired and refitted at considerable cost during the present and immediately preceding years; and yet with all their repairs recently completed they were to be sent to the Clyde to be sold as scrap iron. They had always been told that they might have confidence in the sagacity and foresight of the naval administration of the country. Here was a sudden change in naval policy which would certainly entail a considerable loss of public money. That shook their confidence. He would defer what he had to say on that subject until they got fuller statistics upon it.
  They were told that the Prime Minister was a very skilful strategist, and they knew he was a Parliamentary strategist. He admired the strategical way in which the right hon. Gentleman treated this subject when speaking in Glasgow. The right hon. Gentleman described this policy as a "courageous stroke of the pen, "but in so saying he knew he was confessing to the utter want of foresight on the part of the Government of which he had been a leading member for many years. That might be good strategy for a public meeting, but it was cold comfort for the taxpayers of the country, who had to pay dearly for this change of policy on the part of the Government. It was the duty of the Opposition in the House and in the country to advocate that the spirit of economy should replace the spirit of expenditure and extravagance which had so long prevailed in the spending Departments, in Parliament,

  41
  and in the nation. No doubt the distress, the depression in trade, the fall in Consols and other securities, and the pressure of taxation had brought home to the people that they had been spending far too much, and that they must needs call a halt. In the last speech which the late Sir William Harcourt delivered, the advice which he gave to that Assembly and the country was that in this rapid growth of expenditure and reckless career of extravagance it was time to call a halt. If it was time then it was still more so now. They might not be able to do anything very heroic or very speedily, for they knew that there were commitments for the future put on their shoulders by the Government which were very heavy indeed, and would take a considerable time to work off, but there was no one in the Government, the House of Commons, or the country who did not believe that substantial reductions in our expenditure were possible and that the present moment was also favourable. The foreign outlook in this country was also favourable. He thought everybody allowed that the Army might be much reduced and the expenditure on it greatly lessened, and that this would contribute to its efficiency instead of impairing it. If they could not go back to the expenditure of ten years ago let them try to go back five years. What sufficed before the war surely ought to suffice now. In that way we should be able to diminish the war taxes, to lighten the burdens on industry, to improve our credit and take the most effective means to render the country prosperous and strong within and without. The final words of the Amendment were taken from a Motion moved by Mr. Gladstone in 1857, just before the dissolution of that year. A dissolution was impending then, and he supposed the Government would not deny that another was impending now. Mr. Gladstone said then, and he had tried to urge now, that these matters were of supreme importance to the welfare of the country and that they should be brought prominently before the judgment of the country at the general election, so that when the new Parliament came into being it and the Government which should represent its opinion should be irrevocably committed, after a full discussion before the nation, and with
  42
  their approval, to a real retrenchment and a substantial reduction of our expenditure.
  MR. GUESTsaid that in rising to second the Amendment he wished to avoid anything in the nature of exaggeration. He quite admitted that they could not expect that the expenditure of the country would remain stationary from year to year. There was the consideration of growth of population alone which must lead to a legitimate increase in our public expenditure. There was also the consideration of a rise in the scale of wages, which of course reacted upon remuneration the Government had to offer its employees and Civil servants, and the fact that the Government had undertaken many functions which previously they never dreamt of doing would also react upon the expenditure of the country. But the increase of which they complained could not be accounted for under these heads, and the balance could in no way be explained except upon the hypothesis that the Government had neglected their first duty, namely, the guardianship of the public purse. Taking the last decennial period, he found that the expenditure of the country had risen from £107,000,000 to £176,000,000, or very nearly an increase of £70,000,000 sterling. He arrived at the figure by including the receipts from borrowed monies under the Military Works Acts, interceptions from local taxation, and money for grants-in-aid. He had no doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would reply that to include these was to give a false impression as to what part of the revenue fell upon the taxpayers as a public burden. In comparing expenditure they must include these. With regard to the Debt, taking the unfunded debt and other debts, it had risen in that decennial period by no less than £127,000,000 sterling, and if to that they added other capital liabilities for which we were more or less contingently responsible and which had risen by £83,000,000, it was perfectly obvious that the capital liabilities of this country had increased in that period beyond anything that had ever been known before. He asserted that the expenditure of the country was disproportionate to the

  43
  increase of population, to the growth of wealth, to fresh services rendered by the State, or indeed to the growth and development of national and Imperial responsibilities, or lastly, to the menace of foreign States. His hon. friend the Member for Exeter had given more than once figures to this House to prove that in all this expenditure along the road to ruin it was Great Britain that had always set the pace. If a French Minister or a German Chancellor wanted an argument or a lever to extract from the Reichstag or the Chambre a certain sum of money, it was always the ship-building programme of Great Britain that was pointed to. On the contrary they never heard in that House Votes defended on any comparative basis whatever.
  Of course, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was responsible for this state of affairs, and he sometimes thought that the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was neither a very enviable one nor readily understood. Of course, in dealing with small sums of money he could settle them out of hand. There were Treasury Rules and Departmental practice to enable him to deal with these. But in the case of large sums of money the Chancellor of the Exchequer must depend certainly upon his Parliamentary position and reputation; and the sympathy and connection which subsisted between him and the Prime Minister, and not less, but to a far larger extent, upon the tone and temper of the House in regard to expenditure. Now, was it not rather a curious thing that side by side with this growth of expenditure of which they complained, there had been a weakening and a slackening of Parliamentary control? Take the question of appropriations-in-aid. Everybody was aware that these were entirely withdrawn from the purview of the House; and yet these appropriations-in-aid, regard them as they liked, were money actually expended in the current year, just as much as money derived from any other source. These appropriations-in-aid had increased from £6,000,000 in 1898 to £12,000,000 in 1903, or exactly double. Then there was the question to which his hon. friend had alluded and which was very important; he meant the Supplementary Estimates. It struck at the
  44
  basis of the whole of Parliamentary control if the Government could budget by compartments. If a budget was brought in for some Departments at one part of the year and another for other Departments at another period it was perfectly clear that the control of the House over expenditure was weakened. Then there was the matter of the new rules. The Prime Minister very often took credit to himself that these new rules had had the effect of enlarging the discussions on the Estimates. He did not deny that there might have been some improvement in that respect, and that more time had been given to the consideration of the Estimates, but judged by the standard of economy he sometimes doubted whether this improvement had not insidiously deprived the House of an appropriate, though crude and effective weapon of checking Departmental expenditure. A sort of bargain which took place between the Opposition and the expenditure Departments might not have been very dignified, but, at any rate, it was very effective for its purpose, and there was not the least doubt that the dwindling and decline of the control over public expenditure was caused by the new rules.
  As to the debt due to war there was not much to complain of in that part. There was, of course, the Funded Debt and the Unfunded Debt, and they differed in this respect, that whereas the Funded Debt had a sinking fund which automatically reduced it, the Unfunded Debt had no sinking fund. Although he believed the Unfunded Debt consisted of sums of money which fell due at short intervals of time, he believed that in practice they were renewed as they fell due. Would the Chancellor of the Exchequer reduce the £52,000,000 at which the Unfunded Debt stood in 1904? It had this in common with the Funded Debt, that they both depended upon a fixed annual charge for the payment of the interest which fell due, and so it was obvious that the increase of the Unfunded Debt was made at the expense of the extinguishing power of the Sinking Fund. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon made his Budget speech in 1903, he made an ingenious calculation

  45
  by which he defended the fixing of the fixed charge for the Sinking Fund at £27,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman calculated the number of years under that régime which would elapse before the total debt of the country would be extinguished; but when he made the calculation he did not forsee the increase in the Unfunded Debt, and consequently the whole calculation was vitiated. At the time he made that calculation the Unfunded Debt was between £20,000,000 and £30,000,000 less than it was at the present day—a state of things which he could hardly have realised. The partial suspension of the Sinking Fund which had been made was doubly important as it affected the credit of the country. If they looked at the debt of the country over a period of years it would be found that credit varied inversely with the amount of debt. As the debt rose credit fell, and vice versa.
  What was the origin of this state of affairs? He supposed that everybody would admit that it was the war which first revealed to the Party opposite the enormous treasure in this country, the collection of two generations of thrift and peace. The South African War had differed from other wars in so far that to-day we had forgotten thrift and indulged in prodigality, whereas the Napoleonic and Crimean Wars begat economy. The South African War had been used as an instrument to forward lavish designs. The fact was that we went into the South African War with a normal expenditure of £100,000,000, and came out of it with a normal expenditure of £140,000,000. Now, what was the explanation of this vast increase of expenditure? It was largely because we had in the Government men whose sole idea of statescraft was the spending of money. Was there any legislative or administrative difficulty, money was always forthcoming to meet it. If there was an educational hitch the Chancellor of the Exchequer came down and asked for a new fund. If Ireland demanded self-government the Government gave £13,000,000 to buy off the landlords' claims. If agricultural or clerical rates required relief, the public revenue was sacrificed to meet them. And what applied to legislation equally applied to finance. Take the £35,000,000 de-
  46
  voted to the necessities of South Africa. There was a bogus understanding that this £35,000,000 was only to be advanced on the condition that we were to obtain £30,000,000 of an indemnity. When were we going to see any of this £30,000,000 which was due two years ago? In fact, there was no single legislative or administrative act which did not involve some form of call on the public resources. This striking universality, he could not help feeling, was done on purpose. The spending of money conferred a sort of popularity. An open-handed man was generally popular, but he was a spendthrift. The Government had discovered that it was, on the whole, more popular to spend money on their friends than to incur the odium of the taxpayers by thrift and economy. When the discovery of the national wealth was made the Conservatives attempted to turn it to Party account. The murmurs of the taxpayers would have been drowned but for the inefficiency of administration. It was national exigencies that revealed the hoard of treasure; it was Party necessities that had dictated its lavish distribution. And if it had not been for inefficiency the pernicious waste would not have been revealed.
  The important question for the House to consider was whether this expenditure could go on? He was inclined to say that the alacrity of the response with which both old and new taxation had been met was due rather to past immunity than to the bottomless resources of the taxpayers. But if it could go on, at any rate it could not go on at a rate of increase of £7,000,000 a year. It would not take much imagination to conceive that before many years were over that sort of thing would land us in national ruin. But even if they took their stand on the standard now reached, he thought, from what he had said, that it would be admitted that the question would arise. Where would the Chancellor of the Exchequer turn; from what new sources would he draw to meet this alarming increase in the national expenditure? They were told that the old sources of taxation were exhausted to the utmost, and that new sources must be discovered; that the basis of contribution must be

  47
  broadened. Now, at this moment, most opportunely, proposals of protection came upon the scene. He thought that was a perfect windfall to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But it was a rather surprising circumstance, because what was the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? He needed indirect taxes, and he would have been more than human and less than filial had he not welcomed that fiscal reform which would automatically create them. On the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, who wanted fiscal reform, would have been more than human and less than paternal if he had deplored that excessive expenditure which seemed to render indirect taxes a fiscal expedient. Stripped of Imperial finery, fiscal reform turned out to be nothing more than a fiscal expedient, a revenue device. But could any Member of the House suggest other alternatives to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which would be no less lucrative to him and would not increase the burdens on the poor, while providing a salutory lesson to the authors of this extravagance?
  Now as to economy he was quite certain that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would indulge in the usual taunt of all Chancellors of the Exchequer, that, whereas expenditure had been deplored, no practical suggestions as to economies had been offered. Of the £70,000,000 increase, to which he had referred, no less than £50,000,000 was accounted for by naval and military armaments. As far as the Army was concerned, he had previously urged the advisability, the wisdom, and the practicability of reducing its expenditure; and now they had on the most eminent authority in this House, namely, the Secretary of State for War, the admission that the Army was the most costly machine ever devised by man. The right hon. Gentlemen's friend, General Turner, was not quite willing to go the length that the Secretary for State imagined he would; but he wrote to the papers to say that the expense of the Army was in inverse proportion to its utility. There was a ground upon which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could take his stand. The House, the country, the Government, the War Office all admitted that the Army was
  48
  the most costly, expensive, and wasteful machine ever devised. Surely here was an opportunity for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to effect some reduction. But a far more remarkable thing had happened. They all knew that the Army was extravagant; but now they were told that the Navy was also extravagant. The Prime Minister went down to Glasgow and said that the Government proposed to reduce the Navy by no less than 140 ships, while adding to its fighting efficiency. Every year the Naval Estimates were presented in accordance with the dictates of the strictest economy; they were calculated by experts who compared ton for ton, and gun for gun, with the navies of two or three foreign Powers. These Estimates, the wisdom of which it would be folly to question, and some of the money for which it would be treason to refuse, were now, they were told, not to be relied on. Surely, here again there was an opportunity for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to effect economy. He admitted that this country was a rich country; but it contained a great many poor people. Perhaps in no other country in the world was the contrast between rich and poor so great. Taxation imposed for the war still remained, and deprived humble people of the small comforts of life. This year there was a fresh feature—the existence of a great extension of the unemployed. What was that due to? It could not be due to any ordinary depression or any falling-off in the oversea trade of the country, because never before had the import and export trade stood at such a high figure. What was the operative factor which had produced this new feature? Might it not be a restriction in enterprise on the part of the capitalists of this country owing to the excessive taxation to which they had been subjected for so long. The Government had gratified with a lavish hand all the greedy instincts and expensive vanities of their Party; they had piled up expenditure out of proportion to any standard, they had increased the burdens of the poor, restricted enterprise, depressed public credit and discouraged Parliamentary responsibility. Surely retrenchment had become a vital necessity in this country. Lord Burleigh once said that England would never be ruined except by Party. It would not

  49
  be the fault of the Prime Minister if that ancestral prophesy remained unfulfilled.
  Amendment proposed, at the end of the Question, to add the words—
  "But humbly represent to Your Majesty that the increase in National Expenditure under Your Majesty's present advisers has been excessive, and has imposed heavy burdens on the people, for the relief of which it is urgently necessary that at the earliest moment the expenditure of the State should be revised and reduced. "(Mr. Buchanan.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added. "
  *SIR EDGAR VINCENTsaid in the course of the interesting speech which had just been delivered the hon. Gentleman appeared to attribute all responsibility for the large increase in expenditure to the Government. He thought the hon. Gentleman struck a truer note earlier in his speech when he said that expenditure depended mainly on the tone and feeling of the House and the country. He had always deplored large and rapid increases of expenditure; but he recognised that the Government were the servants of the popular will and the exponents of a policy which had obtained popular support. He would say at the outset that Gentlemen who sat on the two front benches had not been as strong in the direction of economy as many private Members on both sides of the House would desire. The fact was that the burden of restricting expenditure had fallen to a very large extent on private Members. He exempted from any stricture the late Sir William Harcourt, who rendered such strenuous and admirable support to the cause of public economy. What he desired to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer was whether the description of the general state of the business of the country which was contained in the pamphlet issued by the hon. Member for Kings Lynn, and which had alarmed all who followed the course of public finance, was accurate. He hoped to hear that the figures contained in that pamphlet were to a considerable extent exaggerated. Unless some statement of that kind could be made on official authority the position of the finances of this country was such as to constitute a national danger. He thought, there-
  50
  fore, the House would expect from the right hon. Gentleman a very clear statement upon the points brought forward by the hon. Member for King's Lynn. For years past they had been endeavouring to induce the Government to reduce expenditure, and they had always been met with the reply that while in the abstract it was desirable to reduce expenditure, it was extremely difficult to indicate in what direction that reduction should be. It was obvious from the nature of the case that the Budget must always be a matter of compromise. There was a conflict between the claims of the spending Departments and the resistance put forward on behalf of the Treasury. He thought in late years that the claims of the spending Departments had perhaps been listened to too willingly. He believed that hon. Members could do a great deal to lay down the conditions under which sound administration of finance would not only be possible but probable.
  He hoped to carry with him the assent of hon. Members on both sides when he put forward three conditions without which it was impossible that the country could be well administered. The first was clear accounts, so established that all the expenditure of the year was included in them, and so clearly laid down that even any non-expert would be capable of realising their contents. The second condition was that there should be a careful revision of the Estimates, so that useless or redundant expenditure might be avoided; and the third was a close examination of the accounts, to avoid all misappropriation and diversion of public funds. He ventured to say that on each of these three points a very considerable improvement could be introduced into the present system. Expenditure might not have grown beyond the capacity of the State to bear; but it certainly had grown beyond the capacity of the accounts as now presented. No one who had attempted to arrive at a clear and precise idea as to the position of the country could fail to be harassed and irritated by the confusing manner in which the financial results and Estimates were put before the country. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take the matter

  51
  in hand personally, and endeavour so to recast the form of the accounts in the manner he indicated. The ordinary figures of the Budget expenditure this year were £140,000,000, but that amount did not by any means represent the total estimated expenditure of the country. Several items were either left aside altogether or veiled in small print. That was misleading, and anything that was misleading was thoroughly and radically wrong. If the country had known the full extent of the the naval and military expenditure it would never have grown to its present enormous proportions. Did the House or the country realise what really had been spent. He ventured to assert that not ten Members would be able to state what the expenditure on the Army and Navy for the present year was. He would give any ordinary hon. Member, not a financial expert, three hours in the library and all the Blue-books, and he would guarantee that he would not then have discovered the amount.
  The hon. Member who moved the Amendment referred to the Works Bills. He did not think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would contend that the expenditure provided under these loan operations, for they were nothing else, differed essentially from the expenditure contained in the Estimates. He had heard certain specious explanations and precedents of past Chancellors of the Exchequer alluded to, and Mr. Gladstone had been often quoted, but neither Mr. Gladstone nor any other Chancellor of the Exchequer of that time would have put up for one moment with a loan expenditure increasing year by year on naval and military works, and amounting in the current year to something like £7,000,000 or £8,000,000. This was nothing more or less than an extraordinary Budget. The Budget figures which the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a few weeks time would produce to realise his surplus would not be a clear or correct statement of the real financial operations of the year. No one who had attended the debates in Committee of Supply in the House of Commons would contend that they were in any degree debates tending towards economy. It was notorious that the majority of the speakers were
  52
  far more interested in the particular claim of this or that constituency than in the general aspect of finance, or the maintenance of proper economy. No private Members who had not been properly instructed by a critical examination by means of Question and Answer could possibly be in possession of the necessary information to press the Minister in charge for a proper reduction of the Estimates. What probably occurred was that an ignorant private Member addressed a more or less ignorant Minister on that particular subject. The hon. Member who asked the question probably did not know, and the Minister who replied to it only knew partly, the subject, and he simply repeated what had been supplied to him from under the Gallery. The Prime Minister appointed a Commission on National Finance which took a large amount of evidence and spent a good deal of time in the elucidation of the question, and they presented a Report. That Report suggested that the Estimates should be divided into four or five sections, and that each year one-fifth of the Estimates should be submitted to a Committee on the lines of the Public Accounts, and that the Committee should report to the House in detail after a critical examination. Unfortunately, no results had followed from that Report, and the House had not even had an opportunity of discussing the Estimates in the way suggested. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Government did not see their way to accept those particular recommendations they should at least grant the House an opportunity for their full discussion; and seeing the grave public danger of the present system if these proposals did not find favour, the Government ought at once to put forward some alternative scheme. It was a national scandal that this matter should be left as it was.
  The present examination of the Estimates was insufficient, and this fact had been amply proved by what had occurred with regard to the Navy. The Government had recently reduced the Navy by a large number of more or less obsolete and useless vessels. He thought that policy would find cordial approval on all sides of the House, but it could not fail to raise

  53
  the question of what these vessels were doing on the list for so many years. Possibly after careful examination it might have occurred to some other genius at an earlier stage that those vessels should be struck off the list if sufficient attention and examination had been devoted to the subject. As to the control of accounts, he could not help thinking that Parliamentary control in this respect had gradually become largely formal. It appeared to be the case that Government Departments could waste as much money as they liked if they only put in the proper vouchers, and the actual merit or necessity of the expenditure was a matter of considerably less importance. He could not help arriving at the conclusion that while the control of the accounts at the present time was certainly harassing and irritating, it was not in practice very effective. A disagreeable impression was made last year when it was discovered that about £900,000 had been spent in the coarse of the year 1901 without any authority having been obtained from the House until fully two years after the money had been expended. He did not question the diligence of the officials concerned, but surely this showed that the system was defective.
  But outside the question of method there was another point, viz., that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not be content with too low a standard of finance. It appeared to him that a great and prosperous country like ours, with an enormous revenue, with great future responsibilities and calls upon the Exchequer, ought not to be allowed to sink in time of peace and fair prosperity into the position of being unable to pay its way and reduce every year by a considerable sum its indebtedness. He ventured to think that in the arrangements made for the past year the Chancellor of the Exchequer had aimed a little too low, and it would have been much better to have been somewhat more ambitious in his scheme of finance and somewhat bolder in his scheme of taxation. He did not agree with the mover of the Amendment in his complaint with regard to taxation, because taxes were, or should be, a necessary consequence of expenditure. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman
  54
  had put on too many taxes, but, on the contrary, he thought he had put on too few. Having recently added an enormous sum both to the Consolidated Debt and the floating debt of the country, it was the strict and bounden duty of those responsible for our finances to reduce the public indebtedness every year by a minimum sum of £6,000,000. He hoped that in the arrangements for the coming year, whatever temptations the Chancellor of the Exchequer might feel towards the popularity of a reduction of taxation, he would only think of a reduction after he had provided for a proper Sinking Fund. The Government had been severely criticised for their extravagance in the past, but he was glad to see what appeared to him signs of financial repentance. He hoped and believed that the Budget of the coming year, whether it would be the last of the present Government or not, would put the finances of the country back upon a higher level. He trusted that the last months of the Government would be employed in regaining the high financial standard of past years so that they might leave upon the financial history of the country a creditable and honourable record.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid the criticisms of the last speaker had certainly been of a very mild character, but he would remind the hon. Member that speeches delivered in that key, accompanied by consistent support in the lobby on all occasions, was not the way to obtain economy in the national expenditure. He agreed with the hon. Member in one thing, and that was in regard to his request that the accounts should be presented in an intelligible way. He might mention that upon one occasion it took him not three hours, but more like three days, to find out how much money had been devoted by this country to the Transvaal for the two years after the war, and not including war expenditure. He would defy the most skilful accountant to obtain this information in anything like a reasonable time. He did, however, manage to find £21,000,000 in the two years, and this was admitted in the debate by the Colonial Secretary. This was an instance of the great difficulty

  55
  they experienced under the present system of accounts of finding out what their expenditure actually was. According to the Blue-book on "Public Receipts and Expenditure," published last year, between 1889 and 1904 the expenditure increased from £74,000,000 to £130,000,000. One very important, though not the chief cause, was the absence of effective control over expenditure by the House of Commons. The allocation of twenty-three days to Supply had had a most prejudicial effect on the influence of the House. The bargains which used to be made were no longer entered into. The terror of Ministers lest Parliament should be shocked at extravagant Estimates and insist on adequate explanations had disappeared, inasmuch as it was only necessary to wait until the expiration of the allotted days and then the whole of the outstanding Estimates would be voted without any discussion whatever. Great changes had taken place since 1880, when he first entered Parliament. At that time Ministers had only two days in the week, the remainder of the time belonging to private Members, who were thus enabled to bring forward in their own time questions of policy, whether important or unimportant. Consequently the time devoted to finance could be applied to the discussion of the Estimates as such, to suggestions of practical economy, and so forth. But the position now was very different. The private Member had been practically squeezed out of existence as a potent force, being looked upon as a poor harmless creature whose interests might be safely ignored, and the indirect effect was very serious. Questions of policy had now to be and were almost exclusively discussed on the Estimates, that being the only opportunity Members had of raising them. In that way the control of the House had been rendered ineffective, because the discussion was no longer directed to the question of economy.
  Why had not the Government adopted the recommendation, made at the instance of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, that every year one-fourth of the Estimates should be submitted to the special scrutiny of a Committee upstairs? In his opinion the recommendation did not go nearly far enough. No business
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  in the country could be conducted on the footing of examining the accounts of expenditure submitted by the heads of Departments only once in four years. The whole thing was really absurd. Public scrutiny had gone; and apparently private scrutiny was refused. To examine the accounts once in four years would have some good results; but the Departments would be on their good behaviour when the fourth year came, and be more indifferent during the three years of their "close time." The Government ought to state why they would not grant this simple business facility. The only explanation he had heard was that the heads of Departments could not afford time to come and give the House of Commons information about expenditure. There was no foundation whatever for such an idea. If necessary, an additional permanent official could be appointed, but the House of Commons ought to be given the necessary information. It really seemed as though the Government did not recognise their duty to allow the House of Commons to exercise control. The Government was held in high esteem by their supporters; he did not wish to say that they also thought very highly of themselves, but they were not a substitute for the House of Commons in controlling matters of finance. It was the duty of the Government to enable the House of Commons to control the expenditure of the country, especially in view of the inordinate growth during recent years.
  But there was another cause far more operative and far greater in its results, namely, policy. Policy always had controlled and ever would control expenditure. This fact might be illustrated by reference to what he might call the capital account, and the account of revenue and expenditure. The National Debt had increased during the last five or six years by about £160,000,000. That was due solely to the war. He disagreed with the hon. Member for Plymouth that war tended to economy. It did nothing of the kind. War always tended to extravagance, not merely at the time, but for years afterwards. It was so in the cases of the war of 1748, Pitt's Seven Years War, the Napoleonic wars, and the Crimean War,

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  and it was being so in regard to the South African War. The increased annual charge between 1889 and 1904 was £56,000,000, of which £4,000,000 was due to the service of the National Debt and kindred subjects. A portion of that, again, was due to the war. He had always held a very strong opinion about the war, but he did not intend to dwell upon it on the present occasion. When Ministers submitted, and the House of Commons approved, a warlike policy, the blame was shifted from the Ministers to the House of Commons; and when after the dissolution of Parliament the country chose to adopt the policy, wise or foolish, propounded to them, the responsibility was very largely shifted from Parliament to the country. Therefore he did not think there was much room for reproaches in that matter, but he did think it necessary that the House should appreciate, without recrimination or ill-humour of any kind, the real financial significance of such a force as the recent war. The annual service of the Debt had been increased by £4,000,000, in addition to which large sums had been raised by taxation, and other money had been filched from the Sinking Fund to cover expenditure. He did not use the expression offensively, but the apparent outlay was less than the actual expenditure. Then there were items for Somaliland and the China War, amounting to between £8,000,000 and £9,000,000. The heading "Other Charges connected with Capital Liabilities" was concerned, not with the service of the Debt, the permanent debt or the floating debt, but with items under particular Acts of Parliament which had come into existence practically during the last eight or ten years. In 1889 £104,000 sufficed to meet that expenditure, but in 1904 it had risen to £2,035,000. That showed a change of policy in passing Act after Act by which were imposed upon the country permanent liabilities which ought almost entirely to be met out of revenue. Included in that sum was £1,400,000 in respect of the Barracks Act, the Naval Works Act, the Military Works Act, the Imperial Defence Act, the Uganda Railway, and the Royal Niger Company. Those were the subjects upon which money had been raised amounting to about £1,400,000 a year. He had recently
  58
  been serving on a Royal Commission in regard to London traffic, and it had struck him that it would be much better to spend this money upon London railways instead of such places as Uganda. Then there was the Royal Niger Co. expenditure.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I think that was the policy of your Government, and we are only carrying it out.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid he was simply dealing with the policy of spending large sums of money outside the country. Upon such matters as the Royal Niger Co., Uganda buildings, fortifications at Halifax, and other parts of the world, he thought this expenditure had gone a great deal too far, and if they desired to keep an eye upon economy they ought to look to those items. With regard to the current expenditure on the Army and Navy he found that in 1904 it amounted to about £58,500,000. As for the Colonies and naval expenditure, he thought the right view was taken by the late Colonial Secretary at the Colonial Conference of 1902 when, in substance, he told the Ministers of the self-governing Colonies that it was not worthy of their dignity that they should leave all the burden of expenditure upon the Army and Navy to this country. He hoped that language would be noticed by the present Colonial Secretary. In regard to our naval expenditure it had grown from £15,000,000 some years ago to £37,000,000. He wished to know if it was true that 120 ships were not only put out of the service but were going to be broken up and sold for old iron. He would also like to know if it was true that some of the ships had been built in comparatively recent times. They would probably know this when the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty was made. He thought there must be a good deal of wasteful expenditure in regard to the Navy. They were all agreed that a very strong Navy was necessary, but he was by no means clear that the policy the Government had pursued last year of successive large naval programmes had been a wise one. It seemed to him that that policy had a tendency to induce similar expenditure on the part of other nations. With regard to the Army, his

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  hon. friend who moved this Amendment had pointed out that a few years ago the number of troops we kept in the Colonies and other dependencies of the Crown, excluding India, was about 37,000; but now it amounted to 73,000, and we were maintaining no less than 20,000 or 25,000 in South Africa. These 20,000 men in South Africa were one of the results that had flowed from the war. He thought a great deal of the increase on Army expenditure had been due to the increase of garrisons outside this country. The Colonies ought to provide for their own military defence, and some policy should be adopted which would enable this country to withdraw its troops from South Africa, leaving only the same number of troops as there were in that country before the war broke out. He had attempted to show that the large expenditure had occurred partly because of the absence of control of the House, and if the people of this country were prepared to support a quarrelsome and aggressive policy, and adopt the doctrine of pegging out claims for posterity, then they might be certain the expenditure would not go down and, no matter how skilful a Minister might be, the people would still have to bear these intolerable burdens.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)said he conceived that there was no subject more deserving of the attention of the House and of Ministers than national finance. He was sorry there was no Cabinet Minister present except the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He regretted that the Colonial Secretary was not present, because he was about to challenge some of his statements. The finances of this country for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was responsible to the House demanded at least some attention from the rest of the Cabinet. There was no subject of greater importance, for the whole destinies of any country depended upon its finances. Our prosperity depended upon sound finance, and if this were true in time of peace it was even more true in time of war. It was the taxpayer and not the soldier or sailor who really waged war. At Austerlitz and Jena and Leipsig it was not Austrian, Prussian or Russian troops that con-
  60
  fronted Napoleon—it was the British guineas furnished by the British taxpayer, who paid for more troops and who finally defeated Napoleon. If the finances of a country were bad, and if a nation was crushed by a load of debt, it could not do its work or rise to its destinies either in peace or in war; and if wastefulness and extravagance were perpetually indulged in the nation lost all sense of what was being done, and a country which kept on that road was on the certain way to ruin. Something had been said about the responsibility of this House and the responsibility of His Majesty's Government. What was the use of talking of the responsibility of this House when its control had first of all been destroyed by those most ruthless new Rules, and when the Government for the last ten years, with such a majority as had never been known before for so long a period, had employed that majority with the utmost ruthlessness to serve their own purposes? It was His Majesty's Government that was responsible for this expenditure and not the House of Commons. What his hon. friend opposite had said was perfectly true because the opportunities which existed before the new Rules of bargaining behind the Speaker's Chair for concessions in return for Estimates had now disappeared. He had frequently availed himself of such opportunities with the late Sir William Harcourt. Of course no Member of His Majesty's Government would ever break a promise or falsify a pledge deliberately given. The members of the Cabinet were all charming, plausible, smooth, open gentlemen; delightful in their manners, pleasant in their smiles, but the most unconquerable, hopeless spendthrifts, perfectly incapable of appreciating the value of money. The reckless profligate extravagance of the last few years had no parallel in the history of the world. Their debt was being piled up to a gigantic height, and if they continued for another ten years in the same way their credit would be destroyed and they would be approaching national bankruptcy. If the Government gave honest clear accounts the taxpayer, the simple plain man in the country, would understand what the actual national expenditure was, and would have intervened long ago to prevent its increase.

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  But instead of this the Government falsified their accounts, and consequently, however anxious an elector or taxpayer might be to do his small part in bringing about economy he never had any real opportunity of knowing what the national expenditure was. That was one reason why so little interest was manifested in the country with regard to financial matters, and really one could hardly blame the taxpayers when His Majesty's Ministers showed so little.
  Another reason was this. This country was extremely rich—the richest of all the countries. They were told by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham—and even he was not here—that the country, with all its riches, was bleeding to death. Yet the riches and prosperity of the country were such that as a matter of fact the taxpayer did not greatly feel the exactions of the Exchequer. But if by concealment in the accounts and through the prosperity in the country caused by free trade His Majesty's Government was encouraged to pursue the desperate and unfortunate part that they had been taking during the past ten years, we should soon awake to a national catastrophe beside which all that had hitherto passed would be small indeed.
  The system of national accounts varied in different countries. In some places, as in France, they invested the year with a personal character, and referred to that year, which was known as the Exercice, every expense which properly or logically belonged to it, whether incurred before or after. That was a rational system, but it sometimes took fifty years to close an account, and it was not a system which facilitated national control. Our system consisted of a cash account or a banker's account in which all receipts were put on one side, and all expenditure on the other. That was the theory of the British accounts. They started without a balance and ended without a balance. They represented concrete receipts and concrete payments within the year. They had nothing to do with any theory of the burden on the taxpayer. Some of the receipts and expenditure might no doubt represent a real burden and some of it an apparent burden, but nevertheless they must put on both sides of the account what they had received and what they had ex-
  62
  pended. It was perfectly legitimate to explain that such and such items were not really a charge on the taxpayer. In fact an attempt had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, in what was known as the "Fowler" Return, to do this, but it was so unsuccessful in arriving at what was the real minimum burden on the taxpayer that, in his opinion, it should be rather known as the "Fowler Falsification." If hon. Members would refer to the Sinking Fund Act of 1875, they would see that by statute the accounts should show all receipts and all expenditure. But when each successive Minister wished to prove that his expenditure was less than that of his predecessor, it was in the falsification of these accounts that they had worked their wicked will. They had kept the accounts, not with the view to their being true, but with a motive. If accounts were kept with a motive they could not be true accounts. The motive here was two-fold—first of all to show the expenditure of the country to be as small as possible, and in the second place to make the expenditure from year to year vary as little as possible—whereas if the facts varied the accounts must either vary with them or be false. That was supposed to be the triumph of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He should say that the real triumph would be to present true accounts and to pay his way as he went.
  They had had two Chancellors of the Exchequer in his recollection, and no more—he meant Sir Stafford Northcote and Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Gladstones policy in many respects was to his mind to be condemned, but he was one of the greatest financiers that ever lived. He laid down a true principle which he embodied in the Exchequer and Audit Act,1866—the true charter of true national accounts—that every public receipt of every kind should be paid into the Exchequer, and, consequently, that when it was expended it must be paid out of the Exchequer. The hon. Member did not know whether the House realised to what an enormous extent that true principle had been departed from. Instead of the whole revenue being paid to the Exchequer, a very large amount of it, indeed, never reached the Exchequer at

  63
  all. By successive Acts of Parliament passed by successive powerful Ministers the Audit Act had been trenched upon, and gnawed away, and instead of every farthing being paid into the Exchequer and paid out of it by Vote of the House, no less than £22,000,000 of receipts in 1903–4, never reached the Exchequer at all and never figured on either side of the account, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer took no account of any part of it when he professed to give a statement of the national finance. In other words, over £22,000,000, every farthing of which was received and every farthing expended, was excluded both from the receipt side and the expenditure side of the national accounts. That was falsification made with a motive, and deceiving to all who saw the accounts. There was the "Payments to Local Taxation Account," out of Customs Excise and Estate Duties, and consisting in the last year of £9,795,073. In addition to that there were Appropriations-in-Aid of over £12,300,000, Appropriations-in-Aid being, as the House knew, receipts by the Department from other sources than the Votes of this House which by Statute the Treasury was empowered to apply to their expenditure. The result was that there was altogether in 1903–4 a sum of no less than £22,687,000 of public receipts which never reached the Exchequer at all, every farthing of which was received and expended, and not a farthing of which was allowed to appear either on the receipt or the expenditure side of the account. He made that statement as the result of a considerable amount of trouble. He had given two months of hard work to trying to place before his countrymen the true position of the finances of the country, so far as he could reach them, restoring their omissions and their proper character. He replaced in the accounts what belonged to them. He thereby endeavoured to, and he thought to some extent did, make it possible to institute the comparison which had been made impossible by the false official system of accounting. He sought to make it possible for the country to understand what our accounts were. He had been flattered by the number of people who read his pamphlet, and he conceived there was some little merit in it, because it
  64
  had been persistently boycotted by everyone of the Government organs in the Press, from The Times downwards.
  In regard to Appropriations-in-Aid, undoubtedly there was something to be said for taking the receipts by the Department and applying them in alleviation of expenditure when the amounts were small and insignificant. It was, however, a bad system at the best. It was an unprincipled system not informed by a true theory of accounts, but it would be relatively excusable if the Appropriations-in-Aid were small. But there had been the most enormous growth in these Appropriations-in-Aid. In 1873–4 they amounted to only £394,966, in 1893–4 they had grown to £5,535,931, and in 1903–4 they amounted to the enormous sum of £10,382,407. In 1873–4 the total amount diverted from the Exchequer was £1,200,000, while last year it was £22,200,000, and it was that increase, that enormous falsification of accounts, that had so alarmed him and set him to the humble work he had endeavoured to do for the information of his fellow-countrymen. He conceived, therefore, that one of the greatest of our financial necessities at the present time was the institution of a system by which our accounts should be made true. With the desire of obtaining this he ventured to propose to the Prime Minister the appointment of a small Commission of three or four persons, Treasury officials, and others who should settle a true system and put the accounts on a proper basis. His right hon. friend replied that this was a matter which should be considered by the Public Accounts Committee. Strictly that was so, but really the Public Accounts Committee had been treated in a way which he thought did not conduce to the credit of the Prime Minister or the dignity of the Committee itself. He joined that Committee last year at the request of the Ministry, on the express condition that they were to have a day given to them for the consideration of their Report by the House. That condition was not kept. He would apply to that no harsh term, but hon. Members could find the proper term for themselves. If the Public Accounts Committee were to be treated in that way he could not conceive that it would be so good a body as the

  65
  small Commission he had proposed. He might be asked why he selected 1903–4 of the preceding years for his work. It was simply because the years 1903–4 was the last year for which any complete figures could be obtained, and having taken that year it followed naturally that he should go back by intervals of ten years for purposes of comparison. It so happened that the comparison took him back first to the year preceding that in which the Government took office and consequently represented the measure of the unbridled extravagance which had certainly been practised by them.
  Now, had there been extravagance? It was not denied. They were told that the Ministry boasted they were going to take £6,000,000 off the Navy Estimates by discarding obsolete ships. It was a most proper step? But why was it not taken before? This was a most proper measure in his opinion; but they owed no thanks for it to the First Lord of the Admiralty, but to Sir John Fisher. Why had these ships been allowed to grow old and rotten and kept up so long with their skeleton crews? Was it only in 1905 that they had discovered obsolete ships? They had been there all the time. If the Government had had this luminous idea ten years ago it was not £6,000,000 they would have saved, but £60,000,000. To his mind the fact that they were able to promise these economies on the Navy was the strongest and most complete condemnation of the policy pursued in regard to the Navy for the whole of the past ten years. He had ventured to say, and he repeated, that the remedies for our expenditure and the debt resulting from it were first a jealous frugality, that frugality which caused everyone of the spending Departments to have to fight for every shilling they got. That used to be the rule. The conflicts that went on were terrible over half-crowns and crowns. But now nobody ever came near the Chancellor of the Exchequer who did not go away without a million or two in his pocket. The difficulty now was not to get a necessary shilling but how not to get an unnecessary half-crown. The Gentlemen under the gallery from the Departments knew
  66
  that he was speaking the truth. The Departments had often found the very greatest difficulty in spending the money forced upon them by the Government. What could be expected when a system of that kind went on?
  He supposed the right hon. Gentleman would make the usual argument against all criticism: "The hon. Gentleman is very destructive in his criticisms, but has he anything to propose?" He had a great deal to propose, and when the appropriate moment came he would be ready to publish his proposals. In the meantime he would indicate some general heads under which this economy and frugality might be effected. He took the Navy. He held that by the delay in saving the £6,000,000 a year they had lost a very excellent opportunity of practising frugality. Take the Army. He had been speaking to a gentleman in a high position in the Army administration who said that at least £10,000,000 to £15,000,000 could be saved on the Army expenditure without in the least impairing the efficiency of the Army, any more than the £6,000,000 saving on the Navy impaired the efficiency of the Navy. He did not know whether that was true or not; he had been told it. The idea of an Army in some quarters, however, was a band of music and a few men marching. If there was no band they did not recognise that as an Army. Take the Civil Service. There was a vast deal of economy that might be effected there. He could name instances in which three or four men were employed to do one man's work. Let it not be supposed that he wanted to cut down all the salaries in the Civil Service. He was perfectly convinced that there were salaries that ought to be raised, but yet many which ought to be cut down, where three men were employed to do one man's work, as for instance in rates and taxes, in collection, and the greater part of their time they were idle. The matter of appropriations-in-aid he had already dealt with, but he would remind the House that this House did not in Committee have any control whatever over these appropriations-in-aid. They were appropriated in virtue of the Public Accounts and Charges Act,1891, by direction of the Treasury, and

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  could not be voted in the House. It was a domestic affair between the Department and the Treasury. Here he would ask attention to the fact that there was one opportunity for the intervention of the House as to appropriations-in-aid. It was on the Appropriation Bill. In Committee on that Bill an Amendment could, he apprehended, be made to and debate might arise on the clause which appropriated the appropriations-in-aid.
  Now as to the capital expenditure. The so-called capital expenditure was a mere delusive title intended to disguise. There was no capital, properly so-called, unless the National Debt was capital. Neither was there any national capital account nor could there be capital expenditure. There was no capital account and they could not have one. If there were a capital account it would be necessary to set forth liabilities on the one side of the ledger and on the other the assets; but who was to judge of the value of the assets of the British Empire or of South Africa? It was quite impossible, and therefore this term "capital expenditure'' was a deception to disguise the fact that they had made considerable loans—for brick and mortar works mainly—loans that had increased most stupendously and caused a very serious charge every year. Let him tell the House what these were. They were divided between the Army, Navy, and Civil Service. He would show how it worked in the Army and Navy first. The whole cost of the official spending Departments had been and was concealed from this House. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that the Army was going to cost in 1903–4 £36,600,000. That was true, but far from the whole truth. For, besides this sum, there was £6,800,000 for appropriations-in-aid, capital issued under the Works Loans Act, £2,950,000, and for work done by the Civil Department, £498,000; so that the total cost of the Army was not the £36,600,000 dealt with by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget statement, but close on £47,000,000. Again, the cost of the Navy was presented as £35,500,000. As a matter of fact, when the corresponding items to those in the Army were added, the Navy cost £40,500,000. The result was to entirely mislead the public and to enable this mis-statement of the
  68
  finances to be made, which was at the root of all our financial troubles.
  The hon. Gentleman who preceded him truly said that one of the great sources of irregularity was the Supplementary Estimates. If the House would pardon him he would like to read what Mr. Gladstone had said on the subject. He would first give the figures. In 1873–4 they amounted to £4,781,419, but that included £3,200,000 for the Alabama Claims, and the Ashanti Vote of Credit £800,000. Deducting these, the Supplementary Estimates in that year were £781,000. In 1893–4, the year before this Government came into office, they were £592,000. But in 1903–4 they were £4,600,000. This vast increase was very largely the fault of the House, for if the House would, as it should, resist and reject every Supplementary Estimate which did not arise from unforeseen circumstances, and could not have been provided for in the ordinary Budget, these Supplementary Estimates would not have grown to such an extent. He pressed on the House the importance of absolutely refusing to any Government Supplementary Estimates which could not be justified as absolutely unavoidable. This was what Mr. Gladstone said in 1863—
  "It had been a matter of regret to him that on several occasions, from very grave and sufficient reasons, Supplementary Estimates had been presented during his term of office, but he was firmly convinced that the whole effectiveness of Parliamentary control depended upon the state of the finances—the balance of income and expenditure—being once a year gathered together and submitted as a whole to Parliament, and in a plan being submitted to Parliament which should substantially, and, in the main' govern the whole expenditure and income of the year. But, if from any idea of the supreme control of Parliament, the Government were to be called on every week or every fortnight to bring down Supplementary Estimates, the control of Parliament over the expenditure of the year would be entirely nullified under the semblance of consulting its dignity. "
  And in 1866, Mr. Gladstone said—
  "With respect to the Supplemental Estimate, for about £200,000, or perhaps something more, His Majesty's late Government are substantially responsible. It is always a matter of very great regret to me when any Supplementary Estimate has to be proposed. I am quite certain there is nothing by which it is so easy to break down everything effected by a system of Parliamentary control as a needless or great extension of Supplementary Estimates. "

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  He would make his last quotation from the next year. Mr. Gladstone, in 1867, said—
  "He was persuaded that if any Party or any Government wished to undermine the constitution of this country, and the control of Parliament over the public finances, they could adopt no more effectual method for the attainment of that object than the presentation of Supplementary Estimates. "
  He thought he had now made out his case against these Supplementary Estimates which had been so monstrously increasing. He apologised for having taken up so much time, and he would say very little upon Votes on Account. The custom used to be to take these Votes for from £3,000,000 to £5,000,000 sufficient to provide for the expenditure of one or two months, but they were now taken for £20,000,000 or sufficient to provide for five months, and that represented a great loss of control to the House. Improvements had been suggested by which one class of Estimates would be examined each year, but these suggestions had all been set aside by the Government.
  All this wasteful and extravagant expenditure had resulted in a most stupendous increase in the Debt, and the worst of it was that this increase had taken place in the most objectionable form, namely, in the Unfunded Debt. This debt was of the same character as the five pound note which a man borrowed from his friend without any security. In round figures the Unfunded Debt on March 31st,1874, amounted to £4,500,000; in 1884, it was £14,000,000; in 1894, £21,000,000; but in 1904, it had been swollen to the appalling total of £73,600,000; and it was now over £81,000,000. This form of debt had many objections, and one was that it was not equipped with a proper sinking fund, and that it took a great deal of the floating capital in the money market which would otherwise be lent to traders. Therefore when they increased the Unfunded Debt they seriously hampered and impaired trade. They had looked for some diminution of the Debt from the promised contribution of £30,000 000 from the Transvaal. He was going to read certain passages from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, which the Colonial Secretary could either dispute or explain as he thought most
  70
  appropriate, to show that they were promised £10,000,000 at the begining of 1904, another £10,000,000 at the beginning of 1905, and the last instalment of £10,000,000 at the beginning of 1906, and a most rosy picture was presented of the wonderful position we should then be in. The late Colonial Secretary, speaking on May 6th,1903, when asking the House to guarantee a loan to the Transvaal, said—
  "Let me say, in the first place, that this loan, which is, as the Committee knows, a guaranteed loan of £35,000,000, for the purpose of the two Colonies, is closely connected with the question of the war contribution. It is true we are not dealing to-day with the raising of the loan of £30,000,000, which will be required in order to pay the British Exchequer the contribution the Colonies are willing to make; but the whole arangement must be treated together; and I might almost say that the support of the Committee to the loan which is now under consideration is indeed conditional upon the contribution of £30,000,000 to which I have referred. "
  That was very explicit, but the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that—
  "There was a universal acceptance of the principle of the contribution, and a universal willingness to make sacrifices in order to meet it. "
  He explained that when he first visited the Transvaal he had an idea of a larger contribution, but being a generous-minded statesman—especially with other people's money—he stated that he had reconsidered the matter and he said—
  "I was thrown back upon the arrangement which we have adopted, which was to fix the contribution of the Transvaal at the largest possible sum which it could pay, having regard to its present resources, in the course of the next year or two; and the proposal which I ultimately made with the approval and authority of my colleagues to those with whom I was negotiating was by them—and I think I may say by the British population in the Transvaal generally—accepted unanimously. It was that the Transvaal accepted as their contribution of the British cost of the war a sum of £30,000,000, payable in three annual instalments of £10,000,000 each, which would be provided by a loan, secured solely upon the assets and resources of the Transvaal, and not guaranteed by the British Government; and, in order that the success of the loan might be made assured and to show their own confidence in the prospects of this country in which they are interested, the financial groups associated with the gold industry undertook to underwrite the first £10,000,000 off the loan so as to make its issue an absolute certainty. "
  The late Colonial Secretary thus declared that the issue of the £10,000,000 and our receipt of it was an absolute

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  certainty, and it was expressly on that declaration that he asked and induced the House to agree to guarantee the other loan of £35,000,000. The present Colonial Secretary indeed had suggested that this was not an absolute certainty, that it was only a contingent certainty, but they were told by the author and negotiator of the whole thing that it was universally and gratefully accepted by the Transvaal, that they were delighted with it, and that it was an absolute certainty. The ex-Colonial Secretary went on to say—
  "What are the advantages of this arrangement? In the first place it is a final arrangement; after three years we shall hear no more on the subject. The bill will have been paid, the claim will have been met, and we shall have no longer any ground whatever for intervention, and all interference in the internal finance of the Transvaal will have been avoided. Next year—that is, in 1903–4—the charge will come upon the Transvaal for its first instalment of the contribution. In the third year the whole loan will be issued, and the total charge for it of £1,200,000 will come to bear. The Legislative Council will, without any difficulty, pass this Ordinance giving legal security to the loan which we will raise, and the first instalment of which we will probably raise at the commencement of 1904. "
  Thus it was proved that a promise was made by the then Colonial Secretary that if we would agree to guarantee the £35,000,000 we should have £10,000,000 of the £30,000,000 contribution by 1904 and the whole of it by 1906.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON, Warwick and Leamington)suggested that more should be quoted from the speech which the hon. Member had read.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I have read a great deal of it; would you like any more?
  MR. LYTTELTON: My recollection is that my right hon. friend laid down in that speech that there were three conditions under which this loan was promised. These three conditions have not been read. One was (I speak from memory) that the contribution should be voluntary, the second that it should be made not at the expense of the development of the colony, and the third that the issue should be made at a favourable time.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid all these conditions were provided for according to the speech. The first condition was that it should be voluntary. That condition had already been fulfilled. They had not only agreed to it, but had done so gratefully, cheerfully, and unanimously, and it was a certainty. What was the good of talking of contingent conditions when it was to be a certainty, and when on that representation they had induced the House of Commons to guarantee a loan of £35,000,000? After their confident prediction as to the first £10,000,000 was not fulfilled, they knew that they had incurred a grave responsibility, and he did not wonder that they went looking about the whole of the inhabited world to find something to divert attention from their failure. But he had further evidence. He would now quote the Chancellor of the Exchequer. On April 23rd,1903, in his Budget statement, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said—
  "In the present year immediately the Transvaal loan is floated, which I hope will be within a very short time, we are going to repay out of that loan the £4,000,000 which we advanced to the Transvaal, and which will be repaid as a first charge upon this loan. "
  And then he goes on—
  "On January next"—that is, January,1904—"we are to receive £10,000,000 more money, not out of the guaranteed loan, but out of the loan which has been underwritten by the Transvaal mineowners. So that within twelve months we shall receive £14,000,000 and the interest upon that £14,000,000 will be £420,000, which will be added to the Sinking Fund as part of the fixed debt charge, and by that time the amount of the fixed debt charge which is available for the extinction of the Debt will be increased by nearly £500,000. In another year"—which is this year,1905—"we shall get another £10,000,000.
  This was the Chancellor of the Exchequer speaking on the authority of the Colonial Minister, who had had the conduct of the proceedings—
  "And in the next year—1906—we shall get a further £10,000,000. So that we are really going to put into the Sinking Fund a sum of about £1,000,000, since the debt which bears this amount of interest will be extinguished in three years. The £1,000,000 which will no longer be required for interest will remain part of the fixed debt charge—that is, will be added to the Sinking Fund, so that by the time this £30,000,000 is paid we shall have a Sinking Fund of close upon £9,000,000 sterling. "
  He submitted to the House, therefore, that he had established, and that the

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  qualifications suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary had not shaken the establishment of the fact that we were not contingently but absolutely promised by the Colonial Secretary and by the Chancellor of Exchequer this Transvaal Contribution—£10,000,000 at the beginning of 1904, £10,000,000 at the beginning of 1905, and £10,000,000 at the beginning of 1906. The reason he insisted on this was that he was appalled at the Unfunded Debt, and that this sum of £30,000,000 was just what was required to pay off a part of it. If he had any influence with the Government, and could suppose that they took any other interest in his proceedings than that which centred at King's Lynn, he would beg them either themselves to make directly, or again to send out the Member for West Birmingham for the purpose of making, some arrangement for the retarded payment of this £30,000,000. Hallam tells us that St. Louis for the salvation of his soul and those of his ancestors pardoned the Christians one-third of all the debts they owed to the Jews. He was afraid that example was going to be followed by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who for the salvation of his own soul and that of his ancestor would practically pardon the Jews of the Transvaal the debts they owed to the Christians of England.
  He would not dwell on other national liabilities such as that for guaranteed loans, which was stupendous, the Savings Bank liability, the whole of which was payable at call, or the local debt of this country. All these liabilities added together made a total that was perfectly appalling. The remedies were frugality and retrenchment. Let not the smallest economy be despised, let every item be scrutinised closely. It was in this way they got those small economies, which mounted up to so much in the end. In order to get back to sound financial principles and make some provision for our debt, two things at least were required—a Prime Minister who was convinced of the necessity of economy, and a Chancellor of the Exchequer who had some natural ability for finance, some intelligence, some
  74
  aptitude, and some knowledge of finance. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham said he could not accept the hon. Member for Croydon as a Chancellor of the Exchequer merely because he had passed two or three months under the tuition of the permanent officials of the Treasury. That was true of every Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he had risen to the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer by his own merit, or whether he had been jobbed into that position by a family pact or a political intrigue. He took a great financial interest in the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if the right hon. Gentleman could do something to reduce the burden of debt, make an adequate provision for the sinking fund of the Funded Debt, which could only be done by the allocation to that purpose of a specific tax, and if he could do something to reduce that most mischievous thing the Unfunded Debt, and would claim and obtain for that purpose the fulfilment of the promise made by the Transvaal that we should have this £30,000,000—if the right hon. Gentleman would do that, and attempt to put our financial house in a little better order, he would aid the right hon. Gentleman in such a course to the utmost of his power. The financial history of this Government had been disastrous. However desirous he might be of supporting the Government—and desirous of it he was, for he was a Tory, and would always remain a Tory; yes, and a much better Tory than some of those who had been imported from Birmingham—there were matters on which he must follow out the political convictions which he had always avowed. One of these was Finance, the present position of which was most dangerous. He felt the danger most seriously, he could not therefore resist this Amendment, and should feel it to be his bounden duty to give his vote in support of it.
  MR. McCRAEsaid the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer represented a Government which was incompetent, and a system of finance which was deplorable, and therefore every opportunity ought to be taken to protest against it. One fundamental principle which must not

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  be lost sight of was that a Conservative Government from the nature of things must be an expensive Government, as they had particular interests to conserve and propitiate, and it had been the fate of this nation that whenever a Conservative Government was in power expenditure had gone up by leaps and bounds. Lately the country had suffered from a Liberal Unionist amalgamation which had put all Conservative Administrations altogether in the shade so far as expenditure was concerned. In no period of history had there been more reckless expenditure or callous disregard of the grievous burdens they had placed upon the people. That was the price we had to pay for this Administration. If we looked at our national expenditure for the year 1894–5, we found that the amount for Consolidated Fund and Supply purposes was £94,000,000. For the current year that amount had increased to £143,000,000, and the local taxation account had increased during the same period from £7,000,000 to £9,600,000, whilst the naval and military works which at that date stood at £810,000 for the year, were now £10,000,000. There had been an increase of £60,500,000 altogether apart from appropriations-in-aid with which he would not at the present deal for fear of complicating his argument. The aggregate of the increases that had taken place came to a sum that was appalling. The aggregate increase over the expenditure of 1895 for the last ten years amounted to £248,000,000. He quite admitted that there must be a gradual increase of expenditure as every fair-minded man who studied finance must admit, but if we made due allowances for increase of expenditure during those ten years, and made allowance for the expenditure on the war, we had to face an increase amounting to the appalling total of £400,000,000.
  Were we getting value for the money that was being spent in the ordinary expenditure of the nation? The expenditure on the Army in ten years had increased by £12,000,000, altogether apart from military works, yet it was an admitted fact that our Army now was less efficient than in 1904. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War himself
  76
  admitted that the expenditure on the Army was excessive, and was about to make reductions. The House welcomed the reduction of expenditure in the Army, and would welcome it in the Navy as well. He would like to compare our national expenditure with that of a foreign country. The population of Germany was 58,000,000, against our 42,000,000, yet the German estimate of expenditure for the current year was only £97,250,000, against our £143,000,000. The real revenue of Germany was unable to meet that expenditure. Here was a lesson he would commend to the Tariff Reformers. The food taxes were so oppressive that they could not raise any further revenue, and they had to borrow to meet a part—£2,500,000—of the ordinary expenditure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer last year seemed to have adopted the German method, seeing that he made up the deficit of £5,500,000 partly out of borrowed money, partly out of the unclaimed dividend account, and £1,500,000 had still to be met. It was no wonder that the Debt was increasing under the present system of finance as administered by the present Government. Our Sinking Fund was a sham, and our floating debt a danger. In 1894 Sir William Harcourt, in his Budget speech, said—
  "I have always been desirous that the amount of the Unfunded Debt, so far as it may be considered floating debt, in the hands of the public should be reduced. "
  The floating debt at that time was £11,500,000, and Sir William Harcourt proposed to reduce it by £750,000. Now, as the hon. Member for King's Lynn had pointed out, the total Unfunded Debt in round figures amounted to £21,000,000. The floating debt now stood at £82,000,000, and as £4,000,000 of that had to be paid off before the end of the financial year, it left the Unfunded Debt at £78,000,000. The Sinking Fund in 1894–1895 reduced the indebtedness, which was then £667,000 000, by £6,500,000, but last year under the system of finance as administered by the present Government the Debt was reduced on the one hand by £5,149,000, and was added to on the other by £4,298,000, leaving the total net reduction at £850,000. The hon. Member for King's Lynn also referred to the question of

  77
  the floating debt, and the desirability of its being reduced. He would make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, the Member for Croydon, in 1903 estimated how the then floating debt was to be reduced, but there were one or two figures the House ought to bear in mind in considering this question. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon estimated in 1903 that there would be a sum of £40,000,000, which would go to reduce the Unfunded Debt, made up of £30,000,000 from the Transvaal, £4,000,000 due on account of expenditure made by this country on behalf of the Transvaal, and £6,000,000 from the Chinese indemnity—he had only got £3,000,000 out of that £40,000,000. The first instalment of £10,000,000 of the Transvaal loan was guaranteed by fifteen mineowners. Their number was now reduced to thirteen. If others were removed to another sphere, would those who remained be responsible for the £10,000,000? He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer should tell the House why this first instalment was not being issued. One way in which the right hon. Gentleman could get another £30,000,000, which could be appropriated to the extinction of the Unfunded Debt, was from the terminable annuities. The terminable annuities falling in this year amounting to £3,000,000 or £4,000,000. If the right hon. Gentleman renewed those he could write off a block of Consols to the amount of £30,000,000, which would not only reduce the Debt by that amount, but would have a splendid effect on the money market. There had lately been wholesale reduction of expenditure. That was well and good, but he hoped the reductions were real, and that the Government had not simply put off expenditure for which their successors would have to provide. What was wanted to-day was a return to the spirit of Gladstonian finance. Mr. Gladstone lived in times of great difficulty, when, as he himself said, it was harder to save a shilling than to spend a million, but he faced the difficulty boldly. The present financial position demanded the greatest care, and he trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would look the situation boldly in the face, that he would answer the questions which had been put
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  with reference to the Transvaal Loan, and that with the coming year the Sinking Fund would be put on a firm and sound basis.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I am certain that any one who has listened in this House as often as I have done to the hon. Member for Perthshire knows the interest that he has always taken in our financial discussions and the constant pressure that he has attempted to exert on the Ministry of the day to secure further economy. I cannot therefore be surprised, and I do not in the least complain, that he should have seized this opportunity of putting down the Amendment which he has moved to-day and initiating a discussion upon it. But the fact that the discussion is raised at this time has its inconveniences, and, as the House can see, necessarily limits the scope of my reply. The debate has travelled very far afield, far, I think, beyond the terms of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment, and certainly far beyond his opening speech. It has engaged hon. Members in a discussion as to the policy of the Admiralty in regard to ships which are being put out of commission, as to the future policy of the War Office, as to what would be the right course for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pursue in presenting this next Budget, and as to other matters of this kind in regard to which, within a few weeks at the outside, we must be in possession of full information, but in regard equally to which it is impossible for me, speaking here to-day, to anticipate the information which will be laid before the House. Quite obviously it is not for me on the occasion of a debate of this kind to justify the alterations which the Board of Admiralty have made upon their responsibility. I neither accept nor deny the estimates given by various gentlemen as to the financial results of those proposals. Neither can I anticipate to-day the Estimates of military expenditure which will be laid in a short time by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War. These subjects must be discussed, and no doubt will be discussed, by the House when it is in full possession of the facts. The most I can do to-day is to refer to those more general subjects with which various hon. Gentlemen have dealt, and with some

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  of the criticisms of what has occurred in the past, without indicating in any manner what action we may be proposing to take in the near future in regard to them.
  The hon. Gentleman and others who have taken part in the debate complain of an excessive growth of expenditure and of an insufficient care on the part of the Government to maintain the ends of economy and preserve that close scrutiny and inquiry into all our expenditure which is necessary to see that none of it should be wasted. I confess that in one respect this debate has been an unusual and pleasant experience. Since I have held my present office I have been accustomed to severe criticisms of what are supposed to be my own peculiar views, shared by none of my predecessors. The hon. Gentleman who opened this discussion, however, said that his Amendment was meant to impugn the whole financial policy of the Government during the past ten years. It is therefore not so much my own misdeeds, if misdeeds they are, that I am called upon to defend, as the financial purity or wisdom of my right hon. friends the Members for West Bristol and Croydon. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has invented a theory which he has repeated on several occasions in the country and once or twice in this House, that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has secret motives, ulterior motives of his own—which the ingenuity of the right hon. Gentleman alone enables him to pierce—for stimulating expenditure, for maintaining expenditure at the highest figure possible, in order that he may not be called upon to reduce taxation, or take off any of our present burdens, and, indeed, that he may find an excuse for imposing fresh ones.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: What I said was that the high rate of expenditure is, undoubtedly, if one may use a pedantic word, ancillary to the adoption of the policy which it is understood the right hon. Gentleman favours in fiscal matters.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: If that is all that the right hon. Gentleman meant to be understood——
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: It is what I said.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I do not challenge it. Undoubtedly the level at which the existing taxes stand, the smallness of any reserve which is open to us if we should be faced by another great emergency, the inability to extend the existing taxes to any large extent to meet such an emergency, is in itself a grave reason for considering carefully our fiscal position, and for seeking, whatever our views on the fiscal question, some other means by which a portion of our revenue may be raised and by which the level of the present taxes may be reduced. But I think that if the right hon. Gentleman looks back on what he said he will see that he used language which not merely led inevitably to the inference that such an argument was ancillary to the argument of tariff reformers, but which would lead his hearers to infer that I was deliberately keeping up expenditure in order to produce such a result. Well, I accept, of course, the right hon. Gentleman's disclaimer. I am glad to hear that he gives me a clean bill in that respect, and that he, at any rate, would not suggest that I have not, according to my means and according to what appear to me to be the true interests of the country, done my best to observe, and cause others to observe, economy in the administration of the finances of the country.
  Now, Sir, the growth within recent years has been very large. The hon. and learned Member for Dumfries was perfectly correct when he said that a large portion of that growth was directly due to the great war which we waged in South Africa, and that any great war must always leave us with largely increased expenditure. ["No, no!"] He was perfectly correct when he said that that is not, as the hon. Member for Plymouth appears to think, an exceptional result following on the late war, but that it has been the actual result following upon all previous great wars. If the hon. Member for Plymouth would study the speeches of Mr. Gladstone after the Crimean War as carefully as the hon. and learned Gentleman has done he would see that

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  among the evils of the war, in Mr. Gladstone's opinion, not the least was that it fatally led to expansion of expenditure.
  MR. GUEST: Not on this scale.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: That is not a contradiction of what I am saying. I said that the hon. and learned Gentleman was perfectly right in saying that a very considerable increase in our expenditure was due directly to the war. Further, it is no doubt due indirectly to the war that the experience of that war, still fresh in the minds of some of us, pointed out defects in our organisation for the defence of Imperial interests which, at the time, it was made a ground of complaint that the Government had not already provided for, and which we should indeed have been lacking in our duty if we had not sought to provide for after that experience. But do not let it be supposed that the whole of this growth is by any means due to the war or to military or naval preparations intended to place us in a proper position of defence in case of a future war. Our expenditure grows, and grows much faster than I like, by a normal, and what I might almost call an automatic process. Take a single subject as an illustration, the growth of our educational expenditure. That expenditure grows year by year, apart from new demands which the House of Commons makes, apart from new duties imposed, by very large sums, by the purely automatic growth which occurs in the number of children attending the schools. Take one other illustration—the growth of our Post Office expenditure. The Post Office expenditure has risen largely in the course of the last ten years, partly because we are doing a bigger business and have a larger turnover, partly because we have spent considerable sums of money either in giving increased facilities to the public or, to an even larger extent, in giving increased advantages to the employés of the State.
  Now, I do not think that much is gained by general complaint as to the growth of expenditure. That does not help you to reduce expenditure. We are all agreed, and no one in my position can fail to agree, that this high expenditure is undesirable in itself,
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  that any reduction which can be safely made it is highly desirable to make, and that all new demands should be closely scrutinised not merely with regard to the desirability or otherwise of the actual expenditure proposed, but with regard to the general state of our financial resources and the compatibility of our financial position with the fresh demands made upon it. Again, I venture to say that the House in this matter is itself largely responsible; and if expenditure is not greater now even than the huge figure it has attained, that is not due to any check or control exercised by the House of Commons, but is due to the resistance of my colleagues, my predecessors, and myself to incessant and almost daily demands which the House of Commons makes upon us. The House of Commons in these matters is apt to separate itself as it were into two entirely different personages, the one taking no responsibility for the deeds of the other. At one moment we are urged to re-arm the artillery, then to build more ships, to pay postmen higher wages, to give a penny postage for the whole world, to light the coasts and harbours of our land free, to give larger grants to local authorities for education, and for half-a-dozen, I might almost say half-a-hundred, other purposes, such as the increase of Government interference in trade and industry, the appointment of new inspectors, the sending of a fresh army of officials travelling throughout the country. If this should be thought not to be a sufficient enumeration of what is expected of the Government in its capacity of a body of reformers, let me recall the demand made for the establishment of State works to provide labour for the unemployed which is favoured by the hon. Member opposite, who represents one of the Divisions of Leeds, and the demands with which I am favoured very nearly every day, certainly every week, and are familiar to every member of the Government for the establishment of harbours of refuge or fishing harbours in the constituencies of hon. Gentlemen in England, Scotland, and Ireland. I could go on enumerating the demands; they are of daily, almost hourly, recurrence. My right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War told me this morning that he had spent two days on this bench recently listening to a

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  discussion on the Army, in which each and every economist urged an increase in expenditure. Then comes round the time when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is taken to task, when the House of Commons, assuming a serious aspect, shakes its finger bravely at him, and tells him he is an extravagant man, and that if he does not check expenditure still further he will bring the country to ruin. Now, cannot hon. Members themselves bring the two sides of their personalities together when they come to discuss these matters in the House; and when they desire a reduction of expenditure, a decrease in the national burden, have I not a right to ask that they should exercise as much self-restraint as is demanded in not pressing on the Government fresh expenditure or other objects which the Government are anxious to avoid?
  The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment recognised the difficulty of sudden reduction in expenditure, and made an observation which is full of truth, but which, I think, sometimes escapes the attention of hon. Members on that side of the House. "Sudden reductions," he said, "do not always lead to true economy. "The hon. Member who spoke last gave an illustration of how reductions might fail to produce economy by boasting that, whenever his own Party were in office, they managed to reduce expenditure on the Army and Navy, and that whenever gentlemen of our Party came into office that expenditure went up. A portion at least of the increased expenditure under us has been due to the fact that their reductions were not economies and were not justified at the time they were made. We have had to make good their negligence and fill up the gaps which they left. [Cries of "No, no, "and "Artillery. "] Yes, we recognise our obligation in regard to artillery; we are proceeding with the rearmament of the artillery in a time and with a rapidity no Government in this country has ever attempted before—I am almost inclined to say no great Power has ever achieved. But I only say this in passing, that we recognise the obligation, and that it will cost a great deal of money.
  MR. GUEST: Who is going to pay?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The taxpayers of this country, but what is the good of pressing that expenditure should be reduced when you admit the necessity for the expenditure? What is the use of blaming us because an increase is involved?
  MR. GUESTexplained that his remark had reference to the contrast the right hon. Gentleman was making between reductions and expenditure.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I remember how this time last year the hon. Gentleman held different views. Those among whom he now sits were speculating in the same way on an early dissolution, and saying that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to make a dissolution Budget in the same way as has been suggested to-night. I am not going to disclose Budget secrets; but, at any rate, whatever hon. Gentlemen may think, I have sufficient regard for the high responsibilities of my great office not to allow myself to be deflected from the path of wise and sound finance from any desire to snatch a political or Party gain. I think I may at least claim that in the only Budget for which I have been responsible I did not shirk the burden that devolved upon me; I did my best to fairly meet, and not without courage, a very difficult position.
  Now I turn from the general question of the growth of expenditure to some of the other criticisms and questions which have been addressed to me. A great deal has been said as to the form of our accounts, and my hon. friend the Member for Exeter in particular put forward a request that accounts should be recast and presented in a clear form so that every hon. Member and every intelligent citizen could easily see what our exact financial position is. Well, I shall be heartily glad to consider any criticism he may offer on the best form of accounts, and as far as in me lies to facilitate a clear understanding of the financial position by the House and the country. But I do not think hon. Members are at all agreed as to the data that would give us a true account of our financial position. So far as I know, if I may be permitted to say so, the best financial Return that is laid before the

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  House is that which is known by the name of its author, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton—the "Fowler" Return. That, I think, gives a better statement than any of the other Returns issued. But I do not know how far that meets the views of my hon. friend. It is all-important in this matter to arrive at a decision as to what the accounts ought to show in order that a correct view of the position should be given. The hon. Member for King's Lynn has a theory of his own. He has intervened in the debate to-night and has undertaken to give His Majesty's Government what he is pleased to call his usual support, but perhaps he will allow me to say his claim is excessive. It appears that in future when he speaks he requires the presence in the House of all the members of the Cabinet, together with other Members to whom he may refer.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I never made any such statement. The right hon. Gentleman is grossly misrepresenting me.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I am in the recollection of many Members who were present. I maintain the statement I have made; his attacks upon my colleagues were meaningless unless they had the meaning I have ascribed to them. The hon. Member has alluded to a pamphlet he published during the recess, from which, I think, Members have culled a good deal of the information we have had to-day. Now in the accounts put forward by the hon. Member—to take one figure alone—the expenditure 1893–94 is made out to be £177,000,000, but according to the "Fowler" Return the correct figure should be £130,500,000, or, if local taxation is included, £140,000,000.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The ''Fowler" Return does not deal with expenditure, but with a theory of the burden on the subject.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is the burden on the subject that has been the burden of this debate, which is the object of this debate, and is, after all, what the subject wants to know. The hon. Member for Exeter said the accounts required clearness, and he com-
  86
  plained of the method by which capital expenditure was dealt with under the Naval and Military Loans Works Act. We have often debated the policy of these measures, and I think I have made my views on the subject pretty well known. The meeting of exceptional capital expenditure by means of short loans with special sinking funds attached was a policy initiated by the late Government for excellent reasons when Sir William Harcourt was Chancellor of the Exchequer. There will and must be occasions when need arises for a very large sum for capital expenditure for works of permanent advantage to the country, and which cannot fairly be charged on the annual revenue. If you attempted to charge this expenditure on the annual revenue you would so disturb the taxation and financial system that you would have a great reaction against the policy you pursue. One of two things must happen—either the works must be included in annual expenditure or you must have recourse to the expedient initiated by hon. Gentlemen opposite when in power, and developed by us. I recognise that they may say that we have given too large an extension to the principle they have set up. That is the criticism of the more careful among them. I myself have always held that such loans should not be a permanent, part of our annual financial system, that they were only justified in cases where very large capital expenditure was a necessity, and that we should seek, as far as possible, and apart from these exceptional occasions, to defray our expenditure from year to year as we went along out of the revenue. I am anxious that the era opened by the first Naval Works Bill should be brought to a close as early as possible, and that so far as possible we should confine any expenditure under this system to the works already included under those Bills by Parliament, and should not admit new subjects of expenditure.
  The hon. Member for Exeter claimed also as a point on which we should agree a careful revision of the details of all Votes in order to see that there was no extravagance, no waste. I entirely agree with him. It is the primary duty of each Department in regard to its own expenditure; and any

  87
  Department which fails to carry out that review year by year fails in its duty to the House and to the country. It is secondarily the duty of the Treasury, and it is the main method of that financial control which the Treasury exercises over all the ordinary expenditure of the country. But I do not believe, as my hon. friend does, that the House will undertake the detailed work necessary for that kind of examination, or that it can effectively discharge the duties of the office primarily by means of a Committee upstairs. We have heard a great deal about the new Naval Memorandum expounding the policy of the Navy. Some hon. Members have attempted to argue that because it was right in the opinion of the Admiralty to make this change now, it must have been right to make it at any indefinite period in the past. They complain that surrounding circumstances did not change in a given way on a given day, but surrounding circumstances have shown that a great change of policy was possible. Such a change in the adaptation of means to an end could not possibly be enforced by a Committee like the Public Accounts Committee; and if the House refers the subject to any Committee like that, then the House, without gaining a more efficient financial control, will either take from Ministers a large share of their responsibility, which will be spread instead over the whole body of the House, or they will deprive themselves of those opportunities of influencing policy which the House now possesses in discussing the Estimates in Committee.
  There is one other observation of my hon. friend with which I have considerable sympathy. He alluded to what I may describe as the posthumous control of expenditure, the control exercised by the Controller and Auditor-General and the Public Accounts Committee on all expenditure already incurred. He suggested that the activities of the Public Accounts Committee and of the Controller and Auditor-General were too much directed to an observance of red tape and too little to the real facts of the financial situation. I think that control was established to prevent something which now practically never occurs. It was established in order to prevent fraud or improper use of money voted by the House. The elaborate system of audit-
  88
  ing the accounts was adopted for that purpose, and now that there are no longer any great abuses the objections of the critics are naturally drawn to minute points. It is within the power of the Public Accounts Committee—and it has been used within recent years in my own experience when I sat on it as Financial Secretary—to examine into that class of questions which my hon. friend desires to see inquired into; and I agree with him that so employed the Public Accounts Committee is doing some of its most useful work. The suggestion has been made that we should have an opportunity of debating the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee. To my mind that is a most reasonable proposal, a most sensible and businesslike proposal. It is almost due to the members who sit for so many days and give up a great deal of time, and I believe that it will be useful to the House and not unprofitable to Ministers. I am certain that if the House were generally pleased to allot one of the days given to Supply to use in this way the Prime Minister would be perfectly ready to accede to the wishes of hon. Members.
  I have a few further observations to make on the general state of our accounts. The hon. Members for King's Lynn and Plymouth took great exception to the system of Appropriations-in-Aid. That is no novel system. It is a system of old standing, adopted and continued after full inquiry and careful examination. Unless the House has some such system as that it will falsify its own maxim. Suppose a Government Department sells waste stores and substitutes stores of a better quality. What is the real cost to the country? It is the difference between the two; and if you give, not the difference between the two, but the whole cost of the new stores, you do not bring the truth home; you disguise it. The most serious point, however, is the statement of those two hon. Members as to our debt and the existing provision for liquidating it. The hon. Member for Plymouth said that there were two kinds of debt, Funded and Unfunded, and that for the Unfunded Debt there was no sinking fund. He is under a complete misapprehension. For the Unfunded Debt, except that part of it which is raised for military and naval

  89
  works and similar purposes, the ordinary sinking funds are as much available as for the Funded Debt.
  MR. GUEST: Do I understand that the sinking fund extinguishes the Unfunded Debt?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is applied at the discretion of the authorities of the day to the Funded or Unfunded Debt. The one portion of the Unfunded Debt to which the sinking funds are not available is sums raised for capital purposes, and all those sums are provided for with their own special sinking fund. I say nothing as to the sufficiency or otherwise of the provision made for the reduction of debt, but I should like the House to know what the provision is, and to compare it with 1894, the year before the Unionist Party came into office. On March 31st,1894, the deadweight debt stood at £664,795,000 and the borrowing for capital purposes was £2,496,000, making our capital liabilities £667,291,000. The total amount devoted to paying off the deadweight debt and new debt was £6,687,000, which represented a percentage of 1·002 of our total liabilities. On March 31st last year the deadweight debt was £762,630,000, and there was borrowed for capital purposes £31,868,000, making the total debt £794,498,000. The total amount devoted to paying off the two kinds of debt during the present year was £8,326,000. That represents a percentage of 1·047 of the total present capital liabilities, or a fractional increase over the percentage of sinking fund and liabilities ten years ago.
  MR. WHITLEY: Are the £8,000,000 a reduction of debt after making allowance for the new creation of debt for military and naval works?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I hope the hon. Member will allow me to pursue my argument. He asks me a question, the answer to which he knows perfectly well. If the hon. Gentleman wants an answer, that is not in excess of the new capital raised for works this year, any more than the figure which I gave for the earlier year was in excess of the new capital
  90
  raised. The figures for the two years were on the same basis, and the proportion of sinking fund to our liabilities is fractionally higher now than it was at that time.
  There is one further observation I must make in regard to this matter. The hon. Member for King's Lynn seems to think that no portion of the terminable annuities is really available for the sinking fund. That is a complete misapprehension. All that part of the terminable annuities which is replacement of capital is an actual part of the sinking fund. One other observation on the account given of the financial position by the hon. Gentleman the Member for King's Lynn. The hon. Gentleman sums up the country's liabilities, national and local. He includes in the national liabilities the whole of the local loans, and when he talks of the local liabilities he includes them again. Thus they appear twice. There are some corrections which I hope the hon. Gentleman will introduce into the next edition of his pamphlet, and I hope that in his attempts at high finance he will not forget simple arithmetic. There is one other question to which I must allude, if only that I may not seem discourteous to the hon. Gentleman who immediately preceded me. He thought the House was entitled to a full explanation from me or from the Government as to their intentions and policy with regard to the Transvaal war contribution. The House is entitled to full information at the earliest possible moment at which we can give it. I told the House the other day, and the Colonial Secretary repeated it, that we are not in a position to make any statement on this subject at the present time. We shall be only too happy, when we are able, to take the House into our confidence and give them all the information they can desire or have a right to expect.
  *MR. McCRAE: Can we have it at an early date?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I hope we may have it before very long, but I cannot make any pledge, for I know that if I did so the hon. Gentleman would put Questions down twice a week with the object of finding out when the early day is to be. I think I have covered as

  91
  far as is necessary, or possible, in the present circumstances the scope of this discussion. My answer on many points is necessarily incomplete, because we are really invited to a discussion of the Army and Navy Estimates, which are not yet in the hands of Members, the Transvaal war contribution, upon which the Government is not yet in a position to make any further statement, and of the proposals of the Budget, which I shall have to make in a month or six weeks time, but which I must decline to anticipate, even to gratify the curiosity of hon. Gentlemen of this House. It must be, as long as I hold my present position, my earnest endeavour to see that not more money is taken from the taxpayer's pocket than is really required for the service of the nation. It has been my duty many times already to resist expenditure, desirable in itself, which I thought the taxpayer could not afford or ought not to afford at the time. I do not doubt that it will be my duty to do so in the future. I hope when I come to resist unreasonable and exorbitant demands I shall have the support of all those advocates of economy who have been so lavish of their criticism to-day.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I did not intend to take any part in this discussion, but there is one line of defence which the right hon. Gentleman has adopted which induces me to say a few words to the House. He said that the main part of the blame rests not with the Government or their policy, but with the House of Commons. When the right hon. Gentleman says he cannot give a complete answer or make a complete statement on behalf of the Government, because the Estimates of the coming year are not yet in the hands of Members, that is not the question before the House at all. The question before the House is the general tendency and current of the expenditure of the Government for the last ten or fifteen years; and however much by a death-bed repentance they may redeem themselves, as they think, in the Budget that is to come, that does not in the least affect our judgment of the course they have pursued in the past. The right hon. Gentleman, as I have said, blames the House of
  92
  Commons. I agree with him to a certain point. When he denounces the habit of Members of urging—rightly or wrongly—additional expenditure upon the Government, of attacking the Government for refusing demands that are made upon them—sometimes, no doubt, demands to which individual Members engage themselves among their constituencies—in all that I am entirely in accord with the right hon. Gentleman. But that question does not affect the case before the House of Commons, because we assume that this Government of all the virtues is strong enough to refuse those demands that are made upon them. The Government introduces Estimates, and it is by the Estimates and the side matters of expenditure affiliated to the Estimates that we judge the expenditure and policy of the Government. It is part of their duty to give the tone in this matter to the House of Commons, and if there is recklessness in the country or in the House—a recklessness as to expenditure, an indifference to expenditure, a desire to see greater expenditure—an idea that great expenditure is good for the country—and I am afraid to some extent there is—no one has contributed to the creation of that feeling so much as the right hon. Gentlemen who sit on the bench opposite. The right hon. Gentleman has been objecting to the tone which he has noticed. I am afraid he condemns the result of his own teaching. It does not lie in his mouth to say it is the fault of the House of Commons.
  We have had a great deal said in this most instructive debate. I regret that most Members of the House did not hear the speeches of my hon. friends the mover and seconder, which I thought admirable, of the hon. Member for Exeter, whose authority we all recognise, and, of course, the masterly speech of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, who has made this subject his own. A great deal has been said about methods of improving the control over expenditure by the House of Commons. I think there is much need for improvement. But I have never yet quite seen my way to the manner of giving it. I have seen and heard a good many things proposed which I am afraid when they came to work, instead of having a beneficial would have a prejudicial effect on the expenditure of

  93
  public departments. I think one thing has conduced to lowering the power of the House of Commons in this respect, and that is the new arrangement with regard to Votes in Supply. Hon. Members have pointed out that after a certain day the guillotine falls and then the whole thing goes by the board. But there is a great deal more than that; because when a day is set aside for a discussion of the Votes of a certain Department the Minister in charge of that Department knows that, if he can only harden his heart and set his teeth and pass through the ordeal of the discussion, then from the moment twelve o'clock strikes he is a free man. able to snap his fingers at the House of Commons, and perfectly indifferent to what their opinion may be; his Vote will not come on till next year; and, therefore, to that extent the influence and power of the House of Commons has been lowered. In the old days, it is true, there was a great deal of irregular discussion, there was a great deal of uncertainty as to the time when the discussion would come on; the Minister always was liable to have his Vote deferred and deferred, postponed and postponed, and always had the fear hanging over him that sooner or later he would have to bear the brunt of discussion, and probably meet divisions and the criticism of Members. But, after all, the one thing I wish to dwell upon, having now been drawn to enter upon the matter, is that, however important those matters that I have just been speaking of may be, and all the questions of forms of account and of financial machinery—which are, indeed, worthy of all attention from the House—the thing which governs the whole matter is the policy of the Government. No amount of good accounting, of good control by the House of Commons, will do any good to stop this dreadful current of expenditure. Nothing less than a change of the policy which creates that expenditure will suffice.
  Let me refer just before I sit down to one observation which the right hon. Gentleman made. He imputed to me that I had been saying somewhere in the country that he was perhaps not very sincere in his opposition to expenditure, because expenditure rather played up to certain fiscal doctrines to which he is supposed to be attached. I do not
  94
  know that I have gone the length of attributing to him, and certainly never intended to attribute to him, anything in the nature of insincerity; but I do think that, having the opinions he holds on that subject, he is not so likely to look at high expenditure with the same horror as others of us look upon it. If you trace the history of protection, you will find that high tariffs everywhere have had their origin in high expenditure. In Germany, France, and the United States, indisputably, high tariffs were not adopted at all because of a love for high tariffs, but because expenditure being so high these countries were driven to protective taxes. It was in that sense that I said we could hardly expect that strong objection to a high rate of expenditure in a devotee of that system that you would expect in those who take, as I think, a more orthodox view of our fiscal position. I merely rose to express my opinion upon two or three points; but I venture to reiterate, before I sit down, what I think is the hinge upon which everything turns—namely, that our high expenditure is not the fault of the House of Commons or its rules, or its financial methods, but is the fruit of the policy of His Majesty's Government, and it is by changing that policy, and by such means alone, that that expenditure can be reduced.
  *MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid he should vote for the Amendment, not because he regarded the expenditure as excessive, but because it was misdirected. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had named certain matters in connection with which he was continually being pressed to incur expenditure, but which pressure, as the guardian of the national purse, he had resisted. One of those matters was education. The Government were starving education, and then clamouring for protection against the product of better education abroad. Another matter in regard to which the right hon. Gentleman had resisted expenditure was harbours of refuge, which were intended to give seamen and fishermen opportunities of saving life in time of distress. Then there was unemployment. The existence of thousands of men out of work had created a demand for certain expenditure, but the Chancellor of the

  95
  Exchequer gloried in the fact that he had resisted that demand. The right hon. Gentleman apparently boasted also of the fact that the Government did not pay its workers the same standard rate of wages as was paid by private firms for the same kind of work. On all these subjects the Government was proud of its economy. But therein lay the charge against the Government. Educational expenditure during the last ten or eleven years had increased by £5,500,000, while in the same period military expenditure had gone up by over £50,000,000. Personally, he did not complain of the growing expenditure, but he did complain of money being wasted on war and military experiments whilst causes which would protect life, make life better worth living, and develop better citizens, were starved for lack of expenditure. The question of a reduction in the expenditure had been raised, but he did not believe that any reduction was either possible or desirable. As civilisation grew and expanded the demands upon the national purse must increase proportionately as humanitarian feelings increased amongst the people. They should not forget that there were at the present time 120,000 children, in London alone, going to school hungry, whereas they could and should be provided with meals at the national expense. He did not advocate, and he did not desire, any decrease in the expenditure of the nation, but he did
  desire that the money now being frittered away in injurious courses should be diverted to useful and fruitful objects for the benefit of all concerned. Nor did he dream of any increase of expenditure, or even the maintenance of the present expenditure being raised by further taxes upon the people, for there were other sources of revenue still to be tapped which would provide for all the requirements of government without imposing any further burdens upon the poor. Recent Returns showed that 3,700 persons had died whose combined estates were valued at £186,000,000. The surplus wealth of the nation was yearly being added to, and he felt sure that the nation would find before long an opportunity for increasing the national income without adding to the burdens of the poor. Any attempt to broaden the basis of taxation in exchange for old age pensions or things of that kind would be resisted to the utmost by those with whom he was associated. Whilst they demanded a higher standard of expenditure, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, they insisted that it should not come from the pockets of the people but from the surpluses in the banking accounts of the over-rich.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes,201; Noes,250. (Division List No. 11.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Doogan, P. C.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Burns, John

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Duffy, William J.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Caldwell, James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cameron, Robert

  Dunn, Sir William

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Elibank, Master of

  Austin, Sir John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Ellice, Capt EC (S. Andrw's Bghs

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Cawley, Frederick

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Emmott, Alfred

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Bell, Richard

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Black, Alexander William

  Crean, Eugene

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Blake, Edward

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Boland John

  Crooks, William

  Ffrench, Peter

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Cullinan, J.

  Field, William

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Kings Lynn

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Findlay, Alex. (Lanark, N. E.)

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Brigg, John

  Delany, William

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Runciman, Walter

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Kean, John

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Shackleton, David James

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mooney, John J.

  Sheehy, David

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hammond, John

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Murnaghan, George

  Slack, John Bamford

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Murphy, John

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Harwood, George

  Newnes, Sir George

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Stanhope, Hn. Philip James

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norman, Henry

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Thomson, F. W. (York., W. R.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O' Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Johnson, John

  O' Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Joicey, Sir James

  O' Dowd, John

  Wallace, Robert

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Malley, William

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W)

  O'Mara, James

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Shee, James John

  Weir, James Galloway

  Labouchere, Henry

  Parrott, William

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Lambert, George

  Partington, Oswald

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Langley, Batty

  Perks, Robert William

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Reddy, M.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Levy, Maurice

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

  Lloyd-George, David

  Richards, Thomas (W Monm'th

  Young, Samuel

  Lundon, W.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  M'Crae, George

  Roche, John

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  NOES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Wore.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bill, Charles

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bingham, Lord

  Chapman, Edward

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bond, Edward

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Butcher, John George

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Balcarres, Lord

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.)

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds)

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cavendish, V. C. W(Derbyshire

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Denny, Colonel

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  98

  99

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Keswick, William

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N R.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mancr.)

  Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareham

  Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Finlay, Sir R B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Forster, Henry William

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Spear, John Ward

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Stewart, Sir Mark J M' Taggart

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stock, James Henry

  Gordon, Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Stroyan, John

  Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Malcolm, Ian

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Ed. M.

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Tuff, Charles

  Gretton, John

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hain, Edward

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  Turnour, Visount

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Morton, Arthur H. Alymer

  Welby, Lt. -Col. ACE. (Taunton

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Welby, Sir Charles G E. (Notts.)

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords N W

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Helder, Augustus

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Myers, William Henry

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Wilson, A Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wilon-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Percy, Earl

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Horner, Frederick William

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. G. B. Stuart

  Howard, John (Kent Faversham

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pym, C. Guy

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Rankin, Sir James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Hood and Mr. Ailwyn

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Fellowes.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Main Question again proposed.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the
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  clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  KING'S SPEECH (MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS).
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Main Question [14th February], "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign, —
  "We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament. "—(Mr. Mount.)
  Question again proposed.
  CAPTAIN DONELANsaid in moving the Amendment standing in his name he desired briefly to explain the reason this question was raised in this way rather than by way of a Bill. In the first place no Bill could deal accurately with this question unless it contained a financial provision which owing to the rule private Members could not insert, and in the second, previous experience of attempting to deal with this matter by way of Bill did not encourage the Irish Party to make further attempts in that direction. The Irish Labourers Bill brought in by the hon. Member for North Longford was a very moderate Bill making no demands on the Imperial Exchequer, but nevertheless it was bitterly opposed by the Government on Second Reading and thrown out. When the Land Act of 1903 was before the House, the Irish Members insisted that the claims of Irish labourers should be thoroughly dealt with. They failed in that, but succeeded in obtaining a promise that the claims of the Irish labourers should be dealt with in a separate Bill during the following session, and the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary undertook to furnish himself, in the recess, with all the details necessary for that purpose. The right hon. Gentleman carried out that pledge according to the usual Dublin Castle methods, but the other pledge was not redeemed, for no attempt
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  had been made to redeem it. A Bill was indicated in the King's Speech in the previous year, but it turned out to be a very bad Bill. It was introduced under the ten-minute rule and the Second Reading was deferred to the second week in June. It was then referred to the Standing Committee on Trade, where it was kept until the last week in July. It then came back to the House, when owing to the fact that certain Amendments had been carried in Committee, against the Government, the Chief Secretary refused to proceed further with it. From that day to this not the slightest indication had been given by the Government of their intention to take any steps whatever to redeem the pledge they gave. There could not be a more striking illustration of the callous indifference of the British Parliament to the needs of the Irish people or of its incapacity to legislate for Ireland. This Bill urgently needed was shamelessly abandoned, because in the course of a long session the Government would not grant a few sittings for its consideration. The situation in Ireland was truly deplorable. Day by day the flower of the population was flying from the shores of Ireland, and although the remedies lay at the hand of the Government it obstinately refused to apply them. Of course, Home Rule was the only real remedy, but still much might be done to mitigate this great evil by improving the condition of the working classes and keeping them on the soil. The Irish were accused of disloyalty, but how could people be loyal to a Government which looked calmly on while their country bled to death without making the slightest attempt to bind up its wounds. If it was desired to preserve the remnant of the Irish race there was no time to spare. Money would, of course be necessary, but there ought to be no difficulty with regard to that, because in common fairness, as the British Government was the cause of all this, the British Treasury should bear the burden. The trouble would never have arisen except for the ill-fated Act of Union for, under an Irish Parliament, Irish industries would have prospered and the Irish labourer have been given a foothold in the land of his birth. He begged to move.
  MR. CULLINANin seconding the Motion, said it was because of the magnitude of the question and the fact that thousands of the best people were leaving Ireland, that the Nationalist Members took this matter up. These labourers were wanted at home to develop the country, but in order that they might do that it was necessary that they should be paid a wage equivalent to that which they could earn elsewhere. It was also necessary to give them comfortable homes and plots of land on reasonable terms. It was impossible to pay the wages given in other countries and give them better accommodation without assistance, and therefore they asked that the Government should come to the assistance of Ireland by making a grant which would assist her in keeping these people, whose services she required, at home. Money was required in this matter. The Government charged £4 16s. 10d. for £100 under the Labourers Act, and £3 5s. under the Land Act. If there was to be any distinction drawn between the two one would have thought that the poor man would have had the benefit of it. But the explanation was that the landlords had no interest in the labourers question. Had they been interested the rate of interest would have been reduced and a bonus added. Year after year in this House Irish Members had experience of shattered hopes and broken pledges, but never had they had a more shocking experience of broken pledges than the Labourers Bill of the previous year. In 1903 the Irish Members accepted the pledge given by the Chief Secretary to deal with this matter in the forthcoming session, because they thought the right hon. Gentleman was sincere; they went to Ireland and pacified the labourers there, whom they found discontented, and made them hopeful, and what had been the result? Betrayal again. The Chief Secretary sent his inspectors round to get the information, but although they had asked for the inspectors' reports to be laid upon the Table their request had been refused. Like the Land Bill of the previous year, the Labourers Bill was held over to the last days of the session. It was then sent upstairs, where the Amendments proposed by the Nationalist Members were carried by majorities
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  of seven to one. Those majorities were composed of Nationalists, Unionists, Liberals, and Tories, but in spite of the unanimity with which those Amendments were carried the Chief Secretary refused to go on with the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary said before the Land Bill was passed that unless all were agreed upon it the land question could not be settled. The right hon. Gentleman made use of the same words almost on the question of education, but in regard to the Labourers Bill the right hon. Gentleman had no occasion to say it. Everybody voted one way, in favour of the Amendments moved by Nationalist Members. All Parties were united in the desire to see justice done to the Irish labourer except the Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench, and the result was the Bill was withdrawn. No reason was given. So far as could be gathered, the Treasury had stepped in and said it was not prepared to give money at a cheap rate of interest. It was perfectly shameful that a small concession could not have been made to benefit the Irish labourers. The hon. Member for East Waterford tried to impress on the Government that the clauses were not sufficient, and the Nationalist Members proposed Amendments, which were scouted.
  From a Return issued on December 31st last, it appeared that the applications for loans in Ireland under the Land Purchase Act was 31,651, the amount of money required being £13,058,043. The number of applications granted was 8,791, and the loans sanctioned by the Estates Commissioners amounted to £4,408,829. Two days ago he asked the Chief Secretary whether the Land Commissioners in the purchase of estates had brought into operation the statutory powers which enabled them to make provision for the labourers on the estates. What had happened in this matter showed how incompetent any English Government was to manage the affairs of Ireland when they would not attend to the advice of hon. Members who did understand them. While there were 31,651 applications for loans by tenant farmers there were only thirty-six labourers recommended. He could not get a better example of the stupidity of the

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  men who sat on the bench opposite in dealing with Irish affairs. Experience of the Labourers Act showed that it had been cumbersome, costly, and tedious. He knew from his own experience in connection with the working of the Act that there was a great deal of red tape practised by the Local Government Board, and it took about five years to complete a scheme. In these matters they had generally to encounter the opposition of the landlords. The local boards had to provide the expenses of the inspectors who were sent down, although they were not allowed any voice in their selection. The result was that landlords' solicitors volunteered to appear when the inquiries were held and they opposed the erection of cottages. And why? For the simple reason that they knew that their expenses would have to be paid. An overwhelming majority of the men who held inquiries were in sympathy with the landlords, and for the slightest reason the applicant was turned out of Court. Some of the tenant farmers had not been so generous as they might have been, but he thought the majority had done very well. What they wanted principally in these cases was to get loans at cheap rates. They claimed that the Irish labourer had as good a right as, if not more right, than the bloated landlords to get money at 3¼ per cent. They wanted also—and this was very important—to get a simplification of the methods of procedure, and to get the red tape done away with. His belief was that while this matter was in the hands of the Local Government Board in Dublin they might as well think of turning the tide by blowing their breath as to think that they were going to get rid of the official red tape with which they were so much bound up.
  The representatives of Ulster last year were enthusiastic for the Labourers Bill, and they were anxious now that a measure should be introduced. A few figures in regard to the position of Ulster in this matter as compared with other parts of Ireland might be interesting to the House. The number of cottages authorised to be built in Munster was 11,435, while the number authorised to be built in Ulster was 1,239. He might mention that in county Tipperary alone the number of cottages built was 1,169. In that county
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  they had done their part at any rate. They expected that when the Labourers Bill fell through last year a Bill would have been introduced this year on the same subject. Here they were, a fortnight after the opening of Parliament, and what had been the experience? Ireland blocked the way once more, and it would continue to do so until they got their rights conceded. Much as the Nationalist Members might have cause to complain of the conduct of the Chief Secretary on this question and on other great Irish questions, they must admit that he approached them in a very different manner from the Irish Attorney-General. During his experience in that House he had never heard the Attorney-General utter a kind or sympathetic sentence in connection with any question which they had brought up. While they could make allowances for the prejudices which they believed to be due to ignorance of Irish sentiment and affairs, there was no person more distasteful to Irishmen than an anti-Irishman. The Irish representatives were firmly resolved to force a solution of this great labour problem. Whoever might be the occupants of the Government front bench they were resolved on fighting it out. The position of the Irish labourers differed very much from that of the English labourers. They or their fathers had been the victims of the tyrannical and ruthless landlord system of Ireland, a system which the Prime Minister had declared to be the very worst in the world. The Irish labourers were as entitled to good treatment as any section of the Irish community, and the Irish Members were determined to do all in their power to help them.
  Amendment proposed—
  "At the end of the Question, to add the words, 'But we humbly represent to Your Majesty that this House expresses regret that no promise has been made to deal during the present Session with the pressing need for the improvement of the condition of the labourers in Ireland, notwithstanding the complete unanimity which exists upon the Question amongst all sections of the Irish representation. '"—(Captain Donelan.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid there was very little to quarrel with in the terms of the Amendment, or with

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  the speeches in which it had been moved and seconded. He did not agree with the closing sentences of the hon. Member who seconded the Amendment. He could state on behalf of his Unionist colleagues, who represented Irish constituencies, that they had very great sympathy with this Amendment. They must all admit the hard case of the labourers in Ireland, and he believed that in all parts of the House they were anxious for an opportunity of remedying the existing condition of things. He thought it was on the Government side of the House that sympathy was first practically expressed with the condition of the Irish labourers. [NATIONALIST laughter.] He would not quarrel with hon. Gentlemen opposite in regard to that. He did know that they were united on both sides of the House on the question of the farm labourers in Ireland. When the Chief Secretary introduced his Land Bill a great number of appeals were made to him to do something practical and definite for the labourers as well as the tenant farmers. The result was that the Chief Secretary promised in the most definite way a large and generous measure for dealing with the labourers. Last session a Bill was actually produced, but it was utterly and totally inadequate to fulfil either the promise which was made by the Government or the pledges which were given by Members who represented Irish agricultural constituencies. It was condemned in every quarter of the House, but it had, at all events, this merit, that it created for perhaps the first time in Irish history a united Irish Party. It emerged from the Committee in such a shattered and battered condition that it was rapidly withdrawn by the Chief Secretary on behalf of the Government. This session, unfortunately, there had been no attempt whatever to deal with this great question, but the urgent need for something being done speedily remained. He was afraid that there was no attempt made to deal with this matter during the recess, because the Chief Secretary was engaged in other schemes not perhaps so fruitful of good for Ireland as this one would have been. Hon. Members from Ireland, to whatever part they belonged, were bound to try to
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  get pledges fulfilled in as near a future as they could achieve that result.
  If this Amendment had been moved in the form of a Resolution the Irish Unionists, much as they naturally disliked any Resolution coming from the benches opposite, would have felt compelled to vote for it, but as the form of the Resolution had been altered and as it now came in the form of an Amendment to the Address they could not vote for it. If carried it would turn out the Government. He was not sure that that particular result would break the hearts of hon. Members sitting opposite, but it would put somebody else in office. He and his hon. friends could not forget that lately a very definite statement and a very definite pledge was given by the Leader of the Opposition that he still adhered to the old form of Home Rule introduced by Mr. Gladstone. Did the right hon. Gentleman deny that? The present condition of things was bad and trying enough, but the Unionist Members from Ulster felt that there might be something worse. The right hon. Gentleman declared in clear and definite terms that he intended, if he got into power, to hand them over to the domination of Home Rule. Therefore they felt that they could not vote for the Amendment. What they knew of the history and aims of hon. Members opposite made them feel that they could not go into the lobby with them in support of the Amendment. While, however, they could not vote with hon. Members opposite, they felt that until some more definite pledge of repentance was given by the Unionist Government to the Unionist Party they could not vote with it. Therefore on this occasion, as they had generally done of late on Irish affairs, Ulster Members as a Party would abstain.
  MR. FLYNNsaid the speech to which they had just listened was a delightful example of that illogical and inconsistent but highly patriotic spirit in which some hon. Gentlemen approached the consideration of anything relating to the welfare of Ireland, and especially the misery, degradation and poverty in which the unfortunate Irish labourer was sunk. They acknowledged that the condition of

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  the labourer in Ulster was more deplorable than in any other part of Ireland, yet because the Leader of the Opposition, who might or might not come into power, made an observation last week in regard to Home Rule, the representatives of Ulster could not vote for the Amendment which was intended to advance the cause of the labourers. There was something melancholy in having to bring forward an Amendment of this kind. The grievance of the Irish labourers was a fact that stood out beyond all controversy, and all Parties, irrespective of race, politics and religion, recognised that the demand now made for a remedy was urgent, and yet the Government did not dare to come forward last year or this year with an adequate remedy. The young manhood and the young womanhood of Ireland were leaving the country on account of the want of employment, and the Government would not provide a remedy for the deplorable state of things which they themselves recognised as existing. In the King's Speech last year a Labourers Bill was promised, and it was introduced on March 9th, under the ten-minutes rule which limited discussion, but even then the defects of the measure were pointed out by the Leader of the Irish Party. The Second Reading was fixed for March 21st, but it was not taken till June 24th. Notwithstanding urgent entreaties from both sides of the House, the Government kept the Bill locked up for four months, when the most valuable moments of the session were passing by. Irish Members of all sections were anxious to facilitate the measure in every possible way, but facilities were not given, and on the last day of the session the Government withdrew the Bill which had been amended by the Irish representatives with the help of their English allies. It was a sad and striking commentary on the ability of an Imperial Parliament to legislate properly and satisfactorily for Ireland. The Chief Secretary very often professed great sympathy with Ireland and for Irish measures. He was not inclined to speak lightly of the sympathy of anyone, but sympathy which found expression in such a poor practical manner was not of much use to the Irish labourers. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had been anxious to see the
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  position of the labourers improved and when the Bill was sent upstairs it was all very well to say nice things about them. But why was the Bill dropped? It was not a pleasant thing to speak a bad word about one's own fellow-countryman, but from bitter experience he was bound to do so in regard to the general attitude of the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland. He had been many years in the House, and on no matter concerning Ireland, were it great or small, had he ever heard the right hon. Gentleman say one word of sympathy towards any class of the working population of Ireland. He would conclude by quoting an observation made by a distinguished man in regard to the appalling and distressing emigration from Ireland—
  "Every strong and energetic Irishman who leaves these shores—and it is the strongest and most energetic who are leaving them—is a valuable asset substracted from our national wealth. For the chief wealth of every nation is to be found not in its native products, but in the living brains and muscles, without which no native products, however valuable, can be turned to good account. Is this a process that we can view with equanimity? There can be no doubt as to the answer, and if there was a policy which could justly be described as 'penny wise and pound foolish' it is the policy which would withhold from Ireland the funds that may be required to enable her sons to find remunerative employment at home. "
  These words were uttered in regard to emigration by Lord Dudley, the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.
  *MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid that the question of the state of the labourers in Ireland was as important and pressing to-day as it was two or even five years ago. As the present Government which held power in this country was visibly drawing to an end of its career, it might almost appear at first sight not worth while at that time to draw attention to the woes and misfortunes of the labourers. There were men on the opposite side of the House who would soon be in power, and although his remarks might not have great effect upon them they might be of some use. At any rate he hoped that when they came into power they would look to Ireland and see what was required to alleviate the condition of the agricultural labourers there. The present Chief

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  Secretary had dealt with this matter in very much the same way as he had dealt with another matter lately before the House, viz., with a considerable amount of reserve and a minimum amount of straightforwardness. In 1903, during the debates on the Land Bill, the Chief Secretary told them that, owing to the exigencies of time and the state of public business, he could not deal fully with the labourers' question in that measure, but he promised to bring in a Bill in the following session. Although the Irish Members were disappointed they accepted the Chief Secretary's word, as they were all anxious to secure the passage of the Land Bill, and at the end of the session they returned to their constituencies and did their best to lighten the disappointment of the labourers by telling them, on the strength of the promise of the Chief Secretary, that the whole question would be dealt with exhaustively in the following session. However, the Chief Secretary only kept his promise to the letter and not in the spirit. The right hon. Gentleman introduced a Bill which everybody knew was absolutely worthless, containing a number of provisions which nobody asked for, and leaving out most important amendments in the law which had been demanded for years; and bad as the Bill was, it contained in Section 13 a provision which was nothing more nor less. than a covert invitation to hon. Gentlemen opposite to do a little barefaced robbery. [NATIONALIST cries of "Oh, oh!"] That was the only good point in the Bill from the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Bill was so skilfully drawn that it could be wrecked by the Chief Secretary at any moment and the blame laid on hon. Gentlemen opposite, or on himself and his colleagues. The loss that would have been incurred by the operation of Clause 13 would have fallen to the greatest extent on the counties of Antrim, Down, and Armagh, and the representatives of these counties would have been very foolish indeed if they had allowed that provision to go through. Clause 13 was withdrawn, and then there was a perfect avalanche of Amendments of hon. Members opposite which would have reduced the Bill to a shapeless mass.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that the Amendments of the Irish
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  Party had all been put down before that change was announced; and the Bill was withdrawn by the Government because an Amendment was carried which was supported by the hon. Gentleman.
  *MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid he could only repeat that the Bill was so cleverly drawn that it was bound to be killed by one side or the other. In fact, it ought to have been killed at the outset, it was so bad. He supposed the Chief Secretary thought he had fulfilled his pledge by introducing the Bill, but Irishmen of all shades of opinion knew that they had been trifled with and humbugged. Whatever praises of landlords and tenants the right hon. Gentleman carried away with him when he left Ireland, he would only carry from Irish labourers a record of disappointed hopes. For no class of his fellow-countrymen had less been done, and it was a class little able to make its voice felt. He trusted that, by the introduction of labourers' associations and their better organisation, the time would shortly come when it would be impossible for any Government any longer to disregard the claims and demands of the Irish labourers.
  MR. FLAVIN (Kerry, N.): Or of any supposed friends of theirs.
  *MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid that he might be permitted to say what were, in his opinion, the chief respects in which the labourers' code ought to be amended. In the first place, there must be cheaper money; then the simplification of procedure; next the provision of guarantees that the Acts should be properly administered; and lastly, on which he laid particular stress, that provision should be made by which deserving labourers would be able to become the owners of their houses and their plots of land. The labourers' question was part and parcel of the land question, and until that had been fully settled it would be impossible to say that the Irish land question had been definitely set at rest. As to cheaper money, in counties where the Exchequer Grant had been exhausted, and consequently where the expense of administering the Labourers Acts had to be borne by the rates, the existing rate of interest for advances was so high that it involved

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  a very heavy burden upon the ratepayers which District Councils were reluctant to impose. He did not pretend that a labourer's cottage and plot of land was as good a security as a large farm, but the present rate of interest was altogether too high compared with that charged under the Land Purchase Act of 1903. There was no reason why the labourers should not have the benefit of a portion of the bonus. Again, everyone who had had to do with the Labourers Acts had been appalled by the number of superfluous and useless proceedings necessary to put them into operation. No fewer than nineteen different processes had to be gone through for the provision of a cottage and plot costing from £70 to £100, and the expense of these frequently amounted to £30 or £40. There was very great room for improvement there. He admitted that the policy of allowing labourers to become the owners of their own houses and plots of land was a controversial question, but he himself saw no reason in the world why they should not. It would be a great inducement to them to stay on the land, especially in the South and West of Ireland. He knew it would be his duty to oppose on many points the Government which would succeed the present one, but he hoped that when they succeeded to power they would introduce a labourers' measure with which he could agree; and if they adopted the numerous suggestions which had been made from different parts of the House it would give him great pleasure to assist them in passing it into law.
  *MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY (Limerick, W.)said he desired to congratulate his hon. friend on the manner in which he had moved the Amendment. He was of opinion that the labour question in Ireland was just as important as the land question. The two appeared to him to be bound up in each other; and one could not be finally settled without settling the other also. He regarded the labour question just as he regarded the land question as of national concern; and he firmly believed that until the labourers got decent houses with suitable plots attached to enable them to live in comfort, emigration would continue to the great loss of the nation. It was with
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  view to checking this deadly plague of emigration that he hoped the labourers question would be settled by some Government in the near future. Indeed, he thought the Government ought to have spared them the necessity of bringing forward this Amendment; because, as his hon. friend had said, when the Land Act of 1903 was passing through the House the Chief Secretary led them to believe that the Government would tackle the question in the following session and deal with it in a drastic manner. He himself left the House at the end of that session under the impression that the Government would bring in a comprehensive Labourers Bill the following year. They all knew what happened; and they knew how the Government acted, how they disappointed and betrayed the labourers by introducing a worthless Bill, the only saving clause in which—Clause 13—was withdrawn at the instance of Members from the North of Ireland. After that the Bill was worthless. It would not have reduced the enormous expenditure in connection with the administration of the Acts; it would not have simplified the procedure; and it would not have provided cheap money for the working of the Acts. When his colleagues and himself tried to make something of that Bill by improving its financial clauses the Chief Secretary withdrew it altogether. He characterised that act then, and would repeat it now, as shabby and contemptible. It was a strong reminder to him that they should not rely on the promises of British Ministers, but should work for themselves. They were told that the Government could not get the money for the Labourers Acts on Land Act terms; but the Chief Secretary, when the Land Bill was in Committee, did not inform them of that when he induced them to postpone the labourers' question. He should like to know from the Attorney-General what there was to prevent the Government from getting money for the labourers on Land Act terms? One was as great a public question as the other. The Government could get plenty of money for other purposes, but when it was a question of improving the position of the working man in Ireland, so that he might live in comfort, no money was to be

  115
  forthcoming. Last year hope was held out because the question was mentioned in the King's Speech; but this year not a word was said about it. How shabby all that appeared to be on the part of the Government. He mentioned these facts to show how necessary it was to bring forward this Amendment. He regretted that the rules of the House prevented private Members from introducing Bills containing financial proposals; otherwise his hon. friend would have brought in a Bill.
  As for the merits of the Amendment, he himself had attended many labour meetings in the South of Ireland, especially in his own constituency, and had spoken to resolutions proposed at them; and he might safely say that he knew what the labourers wanted in the South of Ireland. In the first place, they wanted the Labourers Acts simplified, and the cost of administration reduced; they also wanted an extension of power under local and public control. Everyone knew that there was too much red tape about the Labourers Acts. Sixteen different steps had to be taken before a scheme could be completed, and after that the time taken for carrying out the scheme was altogether too long, occupying as it did, three, four, or even five years. Then, again, too much of the ratepayers' money was wasted in official expenses. The cost of proving title was very great; indeed, sometimes as great as the value of the plot. He believed that the same routine had to be observed to prove title to an acre or half acre as to prove title to an estate. All that enormous expense had to be borne by the ratepayers. The labourers wanted to have these matters rectified, together with other defects in the Acts. Further, the labourers in his constituency wanted, after the claims of the evicted tenants had been satisfied, to see the grass lands purchased by the Estates Commissioners divided up into plots and given to them. They wanted the land at a fair price and at the same interest as under the Act of 1903. Anyone who had studied the question fairly and impartially would admit that these demands were not extravagant. He Advocated them because he believed them to be just. He considered the question to be most pressing. Everyone knew that Irish
  116
  workers, especially agricultural labourers, were flying from the shores of Ireland like wild geese, to seek a livelihood in foreign lands which they could not get at home. It was their duty to try and help those who could not help themselves, and it was in the interests of Ireland that something should be done in this direction. If Ireland had a Parliament of her own the question would not be delayed twenty-four hours, because everyone was agreed that it was a matter which should be dealt with at once. The remedy for this state of affairs was not very far to find. Let them give the labourers plots of land at a fair price on Land Act terms, and he ventured to say that the problem would be solved. In that way they would be doing a great national work by raising the status of the working man from a condition of squalor and want to that of happiness and comfort, which would instil into his mind the principles of thrift, self-respect, and sobriety. They would make him something more than a hewer of wood and a drawer of water. They would revive in him the old Celtic spirit, a love of home and country; thus the spirit of discontent which now exists would pass away, and Ireland would keep her sons at home, to work for her prosperity and regeneration.
  MR. LUNDONsaid that many speakers had referred to the present methods of procedure, but in his own constituency they had built a thousand cottages, whereas comparatively few cottages had been built in Antrim and other counties in the North, although the procedure was exactly the same. There was too much of the ex-officio element in the North; but they in the South were sound, honest farmers and carried out the law. They had been told that a great amount of expense had to be incurred in proving title; but an inspector could be brought down for 150 cases just as well as for one, and the cost would be the same. Last year they endeavoured to improve the Labourers Bill in Committee, but the Chief Secretary whittled it away and at last withdrew it body and bones. They pleaded that the Bill should be carried through, as did also the hon. Member for South

  117
  Belfast, but the Chief Secretary was not to be cajoled by the hon. Member for South Belfast or the eloquence of the Irish Members. What they wanted mainly was cheap money to carry out the Acts on the same terms as the Land Act. There had never been a failure on the part of the labourers to discharge their liabilities, although the Acts had been in operation for twenty-two years. He did not see why money should not be obtained as cheaply under the Labourers Acts as under the Land Act. At present his constituency was at a standstill with regard to all the Acts; they were in a position in which they could neither lead nor drive. There was not a word in the King's Speech about Ireland, although there was a covert insinuation that her representation would be lowered; but if there was any attempt in that direction, they would know the reason why. Although the Acts had been halting and lame, still they conferred considerable benefits on the labourers.
  He remembered the time when a man with a decent suit of clothes would not have been safe in entering a labourer's cottage, as soot was always dropping from the roof. During his travels in America he had seen in the Southern States the slaves described in "Uncle Tom's Cabin"; he saw them herded together, but they were well-clothed and well-fed. He had seen labourers in Ireland with their wives and children huddled together in one little room; he knew of cases of that sort to-day; and yet the great English nation had not one word of sympathy for them; no money could be found for them, although millions could be found to deprive a small country in South Africa of its liberty. Money could be found for every man but the Irishman. The Celts were still going with a vengeance, as in 1847, but they would return with a vengeance also. The Irish Members would continue to press this question to the front. They had plenty of land in Ireland if they could only get fair play. They had ranches miles in extent on the eleven months system with one herd tending perhaps 500 cattle. Five hundred labourers could be employed on that ranch. In his own constituency seventy-three acres of land was to be disposed of, and there were seventy-
  118
  three labourers to be provided with homes. He suggested to the landlord that each labourer should be given one acre; but he refused. The land was put up for sale, but not a perch of it was sold. Now there were thirty-five labourers on that land on fair terms. That was how he managed that landlord. All they really wanted was the loan of a few pounds to be paid back by instalments. Under the Land Act there was not a farthing in every £100 lent due to the Government; and in like manner the labourers would also pay back. He wished that the North of Ireland was acting with the South in this matter. They could not ride two horses at the same time, especially when one was trotting to the sound of the Orange drum and the other was facing towards the sunny South.
  MR. SLOANheartily associated himself with the timely demand that had been made upon the Government on behalf of a very needful class. The circumstances under which the Amendment had to be discussed were to be regretted, because the hopes and prospects of the labourers had been blighted by the promises made by the Government when the Land Bill was before the House. The Land Act would never have had its passage facilitated by all Parties had it not been for the definite promise of a large and comprehensive measure dealing with the labourers' question. The speeches that had been made by both Irish Parties really pledged them to support any Motion or effort made to better the condition of the labourers. They were honourably bound, from what they knew of the real facts, not to close their eyes to the legitimacy of their claims. When the Bill went up to the Standing Committee the Government must have understood that no Labourers Bill would be acceptable that did not contain reasonable financial clauses. The absence of these clauses was evidence to him that the promises were hypocritical. No other conclusion could be drawn. The labourers were a very industrious class and certainly deserved great credit for the manner in which they had organised themselves and the modesty with which they had put forward their demands. As to the sympathy of the Chief Secretary, that sympathy had been repudiated

  119
  because it had not been carried into practice. Where there was sympathy there should be practice.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Then vote for this Motion.
  MR. SLOAN: With all respect to the hon. and learned Member, I am not aware that he is my leader.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Who is your leader?
  MR. SLOAN: My own conscience, and that is more than many hon. Gentlemen opposite can say. Continuing, the hon. Member submitted that the Attorney-General had shown no tinge of sympathy whatever in this matter. So far as he himself was concerned, there was no man on those benches more desirous to solve the problem, because he knew the life these poor fellows led and the hovels they inhabited, which were not only uncomfortable but insanitary, and certainly held out no inducement for any young man who could find better employment elsewhere to stay in Ireland. No doubt many young fellows emigrated because of these very undesirable conditions. The Bill of last session was wilfully obstructed. [NATIONALIST cries of "No. "] The hon. Member for Waterford said he would not take the responsibility of rejecting the Second Reading and prevent it going into Grand Committee, but every Member agreed that the efforts of the Government to give them a measure acceptable to the labourers were futile, and, as a consequence, they obstructed the Bill. The whole crux of the question was reached when they came to the financial proposals. Members from both sides of the House then put their heads together to see if they could make the Government favourable towards the financial difficulties. It was then that they carried an Amendment by an overwhelming majority, and the Chief Secretary withdrew the Bill on behalf of the Government. That was in the face of a distinct pledge, and it placed every Irish Member in a very false position before his constituents. Surely it ought not to be impossible for the Government to make some amends whereby simplification of pro-
  120
  cedure could be attained. If the Government lasted another session he did not believe they would pass a Bill. They had broken their promise, and they were humiliated as much as they could be. It was a scandal that Irish Members should have to tell their constituents that they had cried in the ears of the Government, that they had knocked at their door, and that when it was opened there was no one in. He urged the Government to make a clear and straightforward statement as to whether it was their intention seriously to grapple with this question, and whether the labourers were to have any hope in this matter from a Unionist Government.
  THE ATTORNEY - GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.)regretted the unavoidable absence of the Chief Secretary for Ireland for several reasons—first, because if he were present he could himself answer for the promises he had made; and, secondly, because he would have had an opportunity of appreciating at their true value former expressions of sympathy and gratitude from hon. Members opposite, who now almost accused him of stooping to introduce a Bill which he never meant to pass. As for himself, he had been accused of having no sympathy with any Irish object or class; but those who knew him knew that that was false, and he should never go out of his way to win the approval of those who made such accusations. From the course of the discussion it was obvious that the Gentlemen who had spoken had two different objects in view. Some of them apparently desired that a scheme should be framed, which should be embodied in an Act and passed, providing better accommodation for labourers according to the requirements of the district, in the words of the Act of 1883. Others would not be satisfied unless some provision were made under which the grazing lands of Ireland should be divided up into small uneconomical holdings and sold to the tenants.
  *MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYsaid what they wanted was that, after the claims of the evicted tenants had been satisfied, the untenanted grazing land should be purchased by the Estates Commissioners,

  121
  broken up into small holdings, and the labourers given as much land as would feed a cow and provide corn and vegetables in them.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid possibly he had done the hon. Member an injustice then in saying uneconomical holdings, the test being that a man should keep a cow, though possibly not extending to the historic three acres. He only referred to the matter to point out that his right hon. friend's promise, made at the passing of the Act of 1903, only applied to the first class of questions—namely, the provision of adequate accommodation for the housing of the labourers in each particular district. It was undoubtedly true that his right hon. friend did make a promise to bring in a comprehensive measure. He brought in a measure, and, although his right hon. friend never concealed from the House that he was unable to get money at a cheap rate, so far as the other portions of the scheme were concerned, he confidently submitted that that measure, as brought in, was a great improvement on all the previous Labourers Acts, and did a great deal to cheapen and simplify procedure. The first thing the Bill proposed was to place the county councils in the position of the Local Government Board, and the Local Government Board in the position occupied in recent legislation by the Committee of the Privy Council. He was, therefore, astonished when the gentlemen who clamoured most loudly for popular right proved to be the most strenuous objectors to the placing of the administration of that measure in the hands of the local authorities. In addition to that, Amendments were put down which would have had the effect of considerably cheapening and expediting procedure. But what was the fate of the Bill? There was no opposition to the Second Reading.
  MR. WILLIAM MOORE: We divided the House against it.
  MR. ATKINSONSaid that, at any rate, there was no real opposition. The Bill then went upstairs, and when only the ninth line had been reached it was arranged that a new financial clause proposing to enable local authorities to
  122
  borrow in the open market for a term of sixty years should be brought up and discussed in priority to the other Amendments. On the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for North Down, an Amendment was carried substituting eighty years for sixty years, and that at once put an end to the Bill, as it was obviously impossible to get money for such a term on the security offered. He did not think his right hon. friend had been fairly treated in this master. Hon. Members opposite asked why, if money could be obtained for the purchase of the land, it could not be obtained for the labourers? He thoroughly sympathised with the labourers, but the vehemence with which Irish Nationalist Members were now pressing the claims of the labourers was in strange contrast with the silence which was observed on the labourers' claims so long as they were working for the tenant farmers. [Cries of "No, no!"] His right hon. friend never promised in 1903 that he would introduce a Bill which would enable them to get money at the same rate as it was got for the Land Purchase Bill. Hon. Members asked why they could not get money for the Labourers Bill at the same rate as for the Land Bill, but they seemed to forget that the rate on the Land Bill had turned out much more expensive than there was reason to expect. His right hon. friend had used all the pressure on the Treasury that was possible, but the Treasury had refused to give money at a rate at all corresponding to the rate given on the Land Bill. The money could not now be obtained except at an enormous sacrifice and outlay to the British taxpayer. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: And the Irish taxpayer.] He thought that was an adequate reason why the Treasury had refused to grant money. which could not be obtained even at a rate at all corresponding to the rate at which they were willing to advance money for the purchase of land, to effect a settlement of the land question in Ireland.
  The hon. Member who moved this Motion said that there was a pressing need for dealing with this question, and it ought to be met this year by legislation. He wished to call the attention of the House to the progress

  123
  which had been made up to the present moment. Notwithstanding the fact that the Bill of last year fell through, the number of cottages authorised during twenty-two years up to January 31st,1905, was 23,118, and since then provisional orders had been made for 1,628 more. The interesting thing about this was that the progress since January 31st was at a greatly increased rate. Besides this, within the last ten months 2,431 cottages had been authorised, at an expense of £200,000, and gratuities to the amount of £323,000 had been granted.
  MR. SLOAN: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by gratuities?
  MR. ATKINSONsaid these gratuities were advances made out of the Local Taxation Account. He thought it was satisfactory to know that notwithstanding the fact that the Bill had fallen through, some progress had been made, and it had been made at a much more rapid rate than at any period since the year 1883. Although it was most desirable that this question should be settled, the falling-through of last year's Bill had not deterred local bodies from taking advantage of the Acts now in operation. He still thought that the measure introduced last year could have been made a good measure, although it fell short of providing money at a cheap rate of interest.
  He had been asked to give them some assurance in regard to a Bill to be introduced this year. He could give the assurance that the Government would be willing to bring in their last Bill amended in such a way as to expedite still further the carrying out of the scheme; but he could not give an assurance that money would be provided at a cheaper rate. To that project the Treasury were opposed. He wished that he were able to give a more satisfactory response to the appeals that had been made. The hon. Member opposite had stated that he was forced to bring forward this Motion because he could not bring in a Bill dealing with financial matters. He did not see what there was to prevent his hon. friend bringing in a Bill, and he should be very pleased if he would do so. He thought those who talked so flippantly about the ease with which
  124
  the procedure in regard to labourers' cottages could be cheapened and expedited would find that the task was not so easy if they endeavoured to approach it in practice. In the first place they must have the district council as the local authority to work the scheme, and there must be some authority above them to approve of what they did. They must also have some means of ascertaining what compensation was to be paid to those persons whose land was taken. This was not such a simple thing as some hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House seemed to think. In many cases he thought the compensation given for land was extravagant, but he thought a great advance could be made in cheapening the process if they provided a model cottage which could be followed without the necessity of having separate plans in each particular case. In regard to the charge that the Unionist Party were not anxious to promote this reform he wished to point out that most important Acts dealing with this very question were passed by the present Government in 1891,1892, and 1896; and in the Land Act of last year clauses were inserted to secure the more effectual housing of agricultural labourers. He was sorry that he was not able to give them any further assurances in regard to the introduction of a measure dealing with this question.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that it was to be regretted that the debate had taken place in the absence of the Chief Secretary, who had given the pledges which they complained had not been fulfilled. Those pledges were followed up by the introduction of a useless Bill. For his own part, he did not intend occupying the time of the House in making an attack, especially under existing circumstances, upon an absent man. He would, however, speak of the Government as a whole. He congratulated the Attorney-General for Ireland on the way in which he had conducted his portion of the debate. He had more than once, on similar occasions, had to complain of the tone adopted by the right hon. Gentleman and the amount of irritation he was in the habit of importing into Irish debates. On the whole he thought on this occasion that, for him, he had been

  125
  fairly successful. As far as he could remember the right hon. Gentleman had only made one irritating and somewhat insulting challenge across the floor of the House. He had said that the vehemence with which the Irish Members were pressing the claims of the labourers was in strange contrast with the silence which was observed on the labourers' claims so long as they were working for the tenant farmers. That was an irritating and a most offensive insinuation, and one which had not one particle of foundation. If the right hon. Gentleman were a new Member this insinuation might be excusable, but he had sat in the House for many years, and had witnessed the Irish Party introducing Labourers Bills for the last twenty years, and he (the Attorney-General) had taken a very prominent part in opposing and securing the rejection of those Bills. Therefore, he thought the taunt which he had flung across the floor of the House was quite unmerited. These Irish questions were, no doubt, irritating to English Members, but this was chiefly owing to the fact that they did not understand them. They were so vehement on the labourers' question, first because the labourers of Ireland, an industrious and hard-working class of men, had been inhabiting squalid cabins, and they desired to remove that reproach from their country and to give decent habitations to this deserving class; and, secondly, because of the great part which the labourers had played in the political history of their country.
  The right hon. Gentleman gave an erroneous account of the claims of the labourers. He said there was apparently one section of Irish Members who were asking merely for the amelioration of the conditions of the labourers, and another section who were asking to have the labourers turned into occupiers of small uneconomic holdings. He did not believe that in any part of Ireland there was any feeling in favour of the second coarse suggested. What was desired was that labourers, as a class, should not be
  126
  shut out from any access to the land and from any possibility of rising to the position of farmers. In the Labourers Bill of last year that opportunity was provided, and it was one of the few clauses in the Bill that were worth having. The Bill of last year was a worthless Bill. Irish opinion was united on that point. He was told there were 250,000 labourers in Ireland, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman asked them to congratulate themselves on the fact that 23,000 of them had obtained cottages in the course of twenty-three years! That was an absurd claim to put forward. What they desired was to amend the Labourers Acts so as to make the procedure rapid and cheap. At present, for every labourer's cottage built, the ratepayers of a district had to pay an annual fine of between £5 and £6 a year, because, although they could get money for land purchase at 2¾ per cent., they could not get money under 4 per cent, for building labourers' cottages. He did not know what the hon. Member for Belfast was going to do in regard to this Amendment, whether or not he was going to walk out when the division was called. He had listened with great interest to the speech he had made in which he denounced men who had nothing but words of sympathy for the Irish labourers, and would not take any sympathetic action. The words of the hon. Member for South Belfast were sympathetic, but was he going to take any sympathetic action. It was moonshine and nonsense to pretend that by voting for this Amendment they would be installing a Home Rule Government in office. He trusted that the labourers of Ireland would appraise that kind of sympathy at its proper value, and refuse to give their support to those Gentlemen who got up in the House of Commons and denounced the Chief Secretary for not taking sympathetic action in regard to the labourers, yet were afraid to back their opinions by their votes, and who walked ignominiously out of the House when the division came on.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes,184; Noes,228. (Division List No. 12.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Allen, Charles P.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Asquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Dowd, John

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hammond, John

  O'Malley, William

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Harcourt, Lewis

  O'Mara, James

  Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Bell, Richard

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Shee, James John

  Benn, John Williams

  Harwood, George

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham)

  Black, Alexander William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Blake, Edward

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Boland, John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rea, Russell

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Brigg, John

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Reddy, M.

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Johnson, John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Joicey, Sir James

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Burns, John

  Joyce, Michael

  Roche, John

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Caldwell, James

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W

  Runciman, Walter

  Cameron, Robert

  Kilbride, Denis

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shackleton, David James

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Labouchere, Henry

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lambert, George

  Sheehy, David

  Cawley, Frederick

  Langley, Batty

  Shipman, Dr. John G

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Slack, John Bamford

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Crean, Eugene

  Levy, Maurice

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Crooks, William

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Delany, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Toulmin, George

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galw'y

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Crae, George

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Duffy, William J.

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Kean, John

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Ellice, Capt. E. C. (S Andrw's Bghs

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Whitley, George (York, W. R.)

  Evans, Sir Francia II (Maidstone

  Mooney, John J.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Murnaghan, George

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Murphy, John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Field, William

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Newnes, Sir George

  Young, Samuel

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark N E

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Norman, Henry

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Captain Donelan.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Forster, Henry William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Malcolm, Ian

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Garfit, William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Greene, Henry D. Shrewsbury)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Gretton, John

  Mount, William Arthur

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Hain, Edward

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Bigwood, James

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Myers, William Henry

  Bill, Charles

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bingham, Lord

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'rry

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Bond, Edward

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Percy, Earl

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bowles, Lt-Col. H. F. (Middlesex

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords. N W

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Helder, Augustus

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bull, William James

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Purvis, Robert

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Butcher, John George

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Rankin, Sir James

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hope J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hoult, Joseph

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A. (Worc.

  Howard, John (Kent, F'versh'm

  Robinson, Brooke

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Chapman, Edward

  Hunt, Rowland

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo T. (Denbigh)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Keswick, William

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End

  Spear, John Ward

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N R.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Loe, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stock, James Henry

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Stroyan, John

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lockwood, Lieut-Col. A. R.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants., W.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lowe, Francis William

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Tuff, Charles

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Turnour, Viscount

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  130

  131

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. G. E. (Taunton

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Sir Alexander Acland

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Hood and Mr. Ailwyn

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. G. B. Stuart

  Fellowes.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Main Question again proposed.
  And, it being after Midnight, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, Mr. Speaker proceeded to interrupt the Business.
  Whereupon Mr. Balfour rose in his
  place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put. "
  Question put, "That the Question be now put. "
  The House divided:—Ayes,235; Noes,180. (Division List No. 13.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Henderson, Sir A (Stafford, W.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chath'm

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Disracli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hope, J F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hoult, Joseph

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Dorington, Rt. Hon Sir John E

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Howard, John(Kent Faversh'm

  Balcarres, Lord

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Balfour, Rt Hn. A J (Manch'r

  Dyke, Rt Hon Sir WilliamHart

  Hunt, Rowland

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Balfour, Kenneth R(Christch.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon Arthur Fred.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Kennaway, Rt Hn Sir John H.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Finlay, Sir R B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs

  Kenyon, Hon Geo T (Denbigh)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt Hon. Col. W.

  Bigwood, James

  Fison, Frederick William

  Keswick, William

  Bill, Charles

  Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Bingham, Lord

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Bond, Edward

  Forster, Henry William

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S W

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Bowles, Lt-Col H F (Middlesex

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lawson, Hn H L W (Mile End)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Garfit, William

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks N R

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederic

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Bull, William James

  Gordon, Hn J E (Elgin&Nairn

  Lees, Sir Elliott(Birkenhead

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Butcher, John George

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'ml'ts

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Campbell, J H M (Dublin Univ.

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lockwood, Lieut-Col. A. R.

  Cavendish, V. C. W Derbyshire

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury

  Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A(Wore.

  Gretton, John

  Lowe, Francis William

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Chapman, Edward

  Hain, Edward

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hambro Charles Eric

  Lytteltoa, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nd'rry

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Colston, Chas. Edw H Athole

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Craig, Charles Curtis Antrim, S

  Heath, Sir James(Staffords N W

  Malcolm, Ian

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Helder, Augustus

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Milner, Rt Hn Sir Frederick G

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Tuff, Charles

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Turnour, Viscount

  Moore, William

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Valentia, Viscount

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Welby, Lt. -Col A C E (Taunton

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Welby, Sir Charles G E (Notts.)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Myers, William Henry

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H(Renfrew)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesl'y

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Percy, Earl

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W H (Yorks.)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Smith, H C (North'mb Tyn's'de

  Wodehouse, Rt Hn E R (Bath)

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Spear, John Ward

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stanley, Rt Hon Lord (Lancs.)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stewart, Sir Mark J M 'Taggart

  Wylie, Alexander

  Purvis, Robert

  Stock, James Henry

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Pym, C. Guy

  Stroyan, John

  Rankin, Sir James

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Harrington, Timothy

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Cullinan, J.

  Harwood, George

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Allen, Charles P.

  Delany, William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Ambrose, Robert

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galw'y

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Higham, Johe Sharpe

  Asquith, Rt Hn Herbert Henry

  Doogan, P. C.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Douglas, Charles M (Lanark)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Duffy, William J.

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Johnson, John

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Joicey, Sir James

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Ellice, Capt E C (S Andr'ws Bghs

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Bell, Richard

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts)

  Joyce, Michael

  Benn, John Williams

  Emmott, Alfred

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Black, Alexander William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

  Blake, Edward

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Kilbride, Denis

  Boland, John

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Kitson, Sir James

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Labouchere, Henry

  Brigg, John

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Lambert, George

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Ffrench, Peter

  Langley, Batty

  Brown, George M (Edinburgh)

  Field, William

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Findlay, Alexander(Lanark N E

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Caldwell, James

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Cameron, Robert

  Gilhooly, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lundon, W.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Grey, Rt Hon Sir E (Berwick)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Cawley, Frederick

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  M'Crae, George

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Haldane, Rt Hon. Richard B.

  M'Kean, John

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Hammond, John

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Harcourt, Lewis

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Crean, Eugene

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  M'Laren Sir Charles Benjamin

  134

  135

  Mooney, John J.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Rea, Russell

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Toulmin, George

  Murnaghan, George

  Reddy, M.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Murphy, John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Norman, Henry

  Roche, John

  Weir, James Galloway

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Rose, Charles Day

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Runciman, Walter

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenuy)

  Shackleton, David James

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  O'Dowdl John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Slack, John Bamford

  Young, Samuel

  O'Malley, William

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  O'Mara, James

  Soares, Ernest J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  O'Shee, James John

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Main Question p it accordingly.
  The House divided:—Ayes,235; Noes,175. (Division List No. 14.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Gretton, John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hain, Edward

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Disraeli, Conings by Ralph

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords N. W

  Bigwood, James

  Douglas, Rt. Hn, A. Akers-

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Bill, Charles

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Helder, Augustus

  Bingham, Lord

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Bond, Edward

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Bowles, Lt. -Col. H. F. (Middlesex

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Invrn'ssB'ghs)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Bull, William James

  Fison, Frederick William

  Howard, John (Kent Faversham

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Butcher, John George

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Hunt, Rowland

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Forster, Henry William

  Jameson, Major J Eustace

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Jeffreys, Rt Hon. Arthur Fred

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Kennaway, Rt Hn Sir John H

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Wore.

  Garfit, William

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo T (Denbigh)

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Kenyon-Slaney Rt Hn Col W.

  Chapman, Edward

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Keswick, William

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Mount, William Arthur

  Spear, John Ward

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Myers, William Henry

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stock, James Henry

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Stroyan, John

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R

  Percy, Earl

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tuff, Charles

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Purvis, Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Turnour, Viscount

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Rankin, Sir James

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Malcolm, Ian

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Moore, William

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Smith, H. C (North'mb Tyneside

  Hood and Mr. Ailwyn

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Fellowes.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark N E

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Allen, Charles P.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Gilhooly, James

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Crean, Eugene

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Cremer, William Randal

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cullinan, J.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Delany, William

  Hammond, John

  Bell, Richard

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Benn, John Williams

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Black, Alexander William

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harrington, Timothy

  Blake, Edward

  Duffy, William J.

  Harwood, George

  Boland, John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Brigg, John

  Edwards, Frank

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andrw's Bghs

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Emmott, Alfred

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Caldwell, James

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Johnson, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Field, William

  Joyce, Michael

  138

  139

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

  Norman, Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Slack, John Bamford

  Kitson, Sir James

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Labouchere, Henry

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Lambert, George

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants

  Langley, Batty

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Dowd, John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  O'Malley, William

  Toulmin, George

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Mara, James

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Lundon, W.

  O'Shee, James John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Palmer, Sir Charles M (Durham)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  M'Crae, George

  Rea, Russell

  Weir, James Galloway

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Reckitt, Harold James

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Reddy, M.

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  M'Kean, John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Richards, Thomas(W Monm'th

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk Mid.)

  Mooney, John J.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Roche, John

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsfd

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Rose, Charles Day

  Young, Samuel

  Murnaghan, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Murphy, John

  Schwann, Charles E.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Nannetti, Joseph p.

  Shackleton, David James

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and

  Newnes, Sir George

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Captain Donelan.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign,
  "We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament. "
  To be presented by Privy Councillors and Members of His Majesty's Household.

  SUPPLY.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House will, this day, resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to His Majesty; and that the several Estimates presented to this House during the present Session be referred to the Committee of Supply. "— (Mr. Victor Cavendish.)
  MR. WHITLEY (Halifax): I object.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! This cannot be objected to; it is under the Standing Orders.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL (Oldham): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker (MINISTERIAL cries of "Order!"), I submit that you having put a Motion from the Chair, we are entitled to say "Aye" or "No. "
  MR. SPEAKER: I have not said that you cannot say "Aye" or "No." I have said that you cannot object to its being taken after twelve o'clock.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he had risen to point out that the Motion did not appear on the Notice Paper.
  MR. SPEAKER: It never does.
  MR. MACVEAGH (Down, S.): Can this Motion be debated?
  MR. SPEAKER: No. All this is irregular, as a division has been called.
  Question Put.
  The House divided:—Ayes,190; Noes,124. (Division List No. 15.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardener, James Tynte

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Moore, William

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Gretton, John

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Mount, William Arthur

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Newnes, Sir George

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords. N. W

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Percy, Earl

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Helder, Augustus

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Bingham, Lord

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Bond, Edward

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Purvis, Robert

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Howard, John ( Kent, Faversham

  Rankin, Sir James

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Campbell, J. H. M. ( Dublin Univ

  Hunt, Rowland

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Robinson, Brooke

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A. ( Wore.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Chapman, Edward

  Keswick, William

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Sackville, Co. l S. G. Stopford

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W (Mile End)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R

  Shaw-Stewart, Sir H. (Renfrew)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

  Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Spear, John Ward

  Dorington, Rt Hn. Sir John E.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lonsdale, John Brown'ee

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stroyan, John

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Fison, Frederick William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Tuff, Charles

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Malcolm, Ian

  Forster, Henry William

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Valentia, Viscount

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maxwell, W J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Wortley Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Wylie, Alexander

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Dowd, John

  Allen, Charles P.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Malley, William

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hammond, John

  O'Mara, James

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Harcourt, Lewis

  O'Shee, James John

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. R

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham)

  Benn, John Williams

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Black, Alexander William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rea, Russell

  Boland, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Brigg, John

  Johnson, John

  Reddy, M.

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Joyce, Michael

  Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'tl)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W

  Roche, John

  Caldwell, James

  Kilbride, Denis

  Rose, Charles Day

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Labouchere, Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lambert, George

  Shackleton, David James

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Langley, Batty

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Sheeby, David

  Crean, Eugene

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Slack, John Bamford

  Cullinan, J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Delany, William

  Lundon, W.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Toulmin, George

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duffy, William J.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Edwards, Frank

  Mooney, John J.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Esmonde Sir Thomas

  Murnaghan, George

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Murphy, John

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Ffrench, Peter

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Field, William

  Norman, Henry

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfi'd

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, NE

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Trevelyan and Mr. Churchill.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That this House will, this day, resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be
  granted to His Majesty."—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)
  The House divided:—Ayes,188; Noes, 120. (Division List No. 16.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh. O

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Althusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balfour, Rt Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Bingham, Lord

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Bond, Edward

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T

  Percy Earl

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hope, J. F(Sheffield, Brightside

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Campbell, J H. M. ( Dublin Univ.

  Howard, John (Kent Faversham

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cavendish, V. C. W Derbyshire

  Hunt, Rowland

  Purvis, Robert

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A. ( Wore.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon Arthur Fred.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Chapman, Edward

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Reid, James (Greenock )

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Kenyon-Slanoy, Rt. Hon Col. W

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Keswick, William

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Robinson, Brooke

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim S

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lawson, Hon. H. L. W (Mile End

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Lawson, John Grant ( Yorks N. R

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareham

  Sadler, Col Samuel Alexander.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Leege, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Shaw-Stewart (Sir H. Renfrew)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N S.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry.

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R

  Smith, HC (North'mb Tyneside

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol S)

  Spear, John Ward

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord ( Lanes.)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lowther, C. (Cnmb., Eskdale)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ss B'ghs

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Stroyan, John

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Talbot, I ord E. (Chichester)

  Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon

  Macdona, John Cumming.

  Taylor, Austin (East Tokteth)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick. S. W.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Tuff, Charles

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Gardner, Ernest

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Turnour, Viscount

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Valentia, Viscount

  Gordon, J (Londonderry, South

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Gordon, Maj Evans(T'r H'mlets

  Maxwell W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire

  Walrond, Rt Hon. Sir William H

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk. G.

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Gretton, John

  Moore, William

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Wylie, Alexander

  Heath, Sir James (Staffords N W

  Newnes, Sir George

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Nicholson, William Graham

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Helder, Augustus

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury

  Alexander Acland-Hood

  Henderson, Sir A (Stafford, W.

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Benn, John Williams

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Black, Alexander William

  Caldwell, James

  Allen, Charles P.

  Boland, John

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brigg, John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Bright Allan Heywood

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Brown Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Crean, Eugene

  146

  147

  Cremer, William Randal

  Kennedy, Vincent P (Cavan W.

  Rea, Russell

  Cullinan, J.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Dalzel, James Henry

  Labouchere, Henry

  Reddy, M.

  Delany, William

  Langley, Batty

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galw'y

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Richards, Thomas (W Monm'th

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Doogan, P. C.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Roche, John

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Levy, Maurice

  Rose, Charles Day

  Duffy, William J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Runciman, Walter

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Shackleton, David James

  Edwards, Frank

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Sheehy, David

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Slack, John Bamford

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Mooney, John J.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Field, William

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Sullivan, Donal

  Findlay, Alexander(Lanark NE

  Murnaghan, George

  Thomas David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Murphy, John

  Toulmin, George

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose.

  Gilhooly, James

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Norman, Henry

  Weir, James Galloway

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset

  Hammond, John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk Mid)

  Harcourt, Lewis

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Hardie, J Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  O'Dowd, John

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfi'd

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Malley, William

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Mara, James

  Mr. Churchill and Mr.

  Johnson, John

  O'Shee, James John

  Trevelyan.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Palmer, Sir Charles M (Darham)

  Joyce, Michael

  Power, Patrick Joseph

NEW BILL.

  TRADE MARKS.
  Bill to consolidate and amend the Law relating to Trade Marks, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Moulton, Mr. Eve, Mr. Cripps, Mr. Butcher, Sir Albert Rollit, Mr. Cawley, and Mr. Robson.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: May I draw your attention to the fact that it is now past one o'clock?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I am quite aware of that. If the hon. Member will study the Standing Order he will see
  148
  that when exempted business is carried over one o'clock the other business on the Paper has to be taken as if it were between twelve and one o'clock.
  Bill presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 76.]
  And, it being after One of the Clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at six minutes after One o'clock.