Sitting of 7 June 1905

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Aberdare Urban District Council Bill; Colne Corporation Bill; North Sussex Gas Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Barry Railway Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Sheffield University Bill [Lords]. As amended, to be considered upon Tuesday, 20th June.
Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill (changed from "Shropshire and Worcestershire Electric Power Bill"). As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Gosport and Farcham Tramways Bill [Lords]; Great Central Railway (Pension Fund) Bill [Lords]; Hastings Tramways Bill [Lords]; Metropolitan and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [Lords]; South Lancashire Tramways Bill [Lords]; Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Water and Gas Bill [Lords] Read a second time, and committed.
Metropolitan Railway Bill [Lords] (by Order). Considered; to be read the third time.
MR. DALZIELsaid he wished to make a personal explanation. It would be within the recollection of the House that he had opposed this Bill, and he now complained that the agent in charge of the Bill had issued what he regarded as a gratuitous and impertinent letter. He opposed the Bill on an important question of administration. The agent called upon him several times, and he tried to see him, but was unsuccessful. He addressed a letter to him only a couple of days ago, in which he included a large number of objectionable phrases, which he thought was an undertaking of very great presumption. Any Member
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of the House was entitled to object to a Bill for reasons which he considered adequate, without being subjected to a personal letter, addressed to him and circulated amongst hon. Members of this House. He had only to say that he had since received an apology from the chairman of the company on behalf of the directors in which he entirely dissociated himself from the letter which had been issued by the agent, and under these circumstances he had no further opposition to offer to the Bill.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member was perfectly justified in calling attention to the subject.
Rathmines and Rathgar Extension and Improvement Bill (by Order). As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill. Ordered, That, in the case of the South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill, Standing Orders 220 and 246 be suspended, and that the Lords Amendments be now considered.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
Lords Amendments considered accordingly, and agreed to.

PRIVATE BILLS, ETC.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 39, 128, and 230 be suspended, and that the time for depositing Petitions and Memorials against Private Bills, or against any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, and for depositing duplicates of any Documents relating to any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, also for depositing at the Private Bill Office all Documents relating to any Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Recess.—(The Chairman Ways and Means.)
Local Government Provisional Orders (No, 10) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
Municipal Corporations (Merthyr Tydfil Scheme Confirmation) Bill [Lords].

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Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Aberystwyth," presented by Mr. Bonar Law; supported by Mr. Victor Cavendish; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 240.]
Millport Piers and Burgh Extension Order Confirmation Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order, under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Millport. Piers and Burgh Extension," presented by the Lord-Advocate; read the first time; and, under Section 9 of the Act, ordered to be read a second time upon Tuesday, June 20th, and to be printed. [Bill 241.]
Port Glasgow Improvement Provisional Order Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order, under The Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, relating to the Burgh of Port Glasgow," presented by the Lord-Advocate; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 242.]
Inverness Gas and Water Provisional Order Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order, under the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, relating to the Burgh of Inverness," presented by the Lord-Advocate; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 243.]
Gamble's Divorce Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time.
Gamble's Divorce Bill [Lords]. Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings in the House of Lords on the second Reading of Gamble's Divorce Bill [Lords], together with the documents deposited in the case, be returned to the House of Lords.—(Mr. Attorney-General.)

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  UNEMPLOYED RELIEF (WORK) (LONDON).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered April 11th; Mr. Whitmore]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 193.]
  ARMY.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Committee appointed by the Army Council to consider the question of sales and refunds to Contractors in South Africa, together with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ARMY.
  Copy presented, of Evidence taken before the Committee appointed by the Army Council to consider the question of sales and refunds to Contractors in South Africa [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  NAVIGATION AND SHIPPING.
  Copy presented, of Annual Statement of Navigation and Shipping of the United Kingdom for the year 1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3390 to 3397 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Questions to Ministers. Return relative thereto [ordered 6th June; Mr. Henniker Heaton] to be printed. [No. 194]
  NEW WRITS.
  For County of Donegal (North Donegal)s in the room of William O'Doherty, esquire, deceased. City of Cork, James Franci-Xavier O'Brien, esquire, deceased.—(Mr, Patrick O'Brien.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Dismissal of William Stevens from Royal Military Academy, Woolwich.
  MR. CROOKS: To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention was called to the dismissal of a man from the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich, in consequence of the man refusing to accept a 4s. a week reduction in his wages, viz., from 21s. to 17s.; if not, will he cause the case to be looked into with a view to the man being paid his full salary for the week in lieu of the week's notice he was entitled to under the regulations.
  (Answered by Mr. Bromley Davenport.) The conduct of William Stevens had been unsatisfactory for a long time past. On the last occasion on which he was admonished he was told that, instead of being discharged, he would be given another chance on the lower rate of pay, 17s. a week. He became very insolent, and was dismissed summarily, with pay up to the date of dismissal. The book signed by the servants on engagement contains the rule, "Service is to terminate upon one week's notice, unless in case of gross misconduct."

  Delay in Delivery of New Field Guns for Indian Army.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for War what has been the extent of the delay of the delivery of the new field guns for India, which is alluded to in the Memorandum of General Sir Edmond Elles.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The extract from the Memorandum to which the hon. Baronet appears to refer, is as follows: "There has been some delay in the provision of the quick-firing guns for Field Artillery owing to some points regarding the equipment having been still under the consideration of the War Office.' This presumably refers to the delay in placing the first orders with the trade, which was due to the question of royalty on design and in the case of the
  926
  18-pounder to the trials with a 20 lb. shell as well.

  Wages paid by Army Boot Contractors.
  MR. CUST: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Report of the Commissioner appointed by the Army Council to inquire into the wages question in the Army boot-manufacturing districts of Northamptonshire has been received; and, if so, what was its effect and what is the result of the inquiry.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The Commissioner was appointed to inquire into the rate of wage for making Army boots, and to ascertain whether there was at that time a rate of wage accepted as current in the districts referred to. He has now reported that since the commencement of the war in South Africa no such rate has existed, and that consequently the War Department has not been in a position to insist upon the payment of any particular rate of wage in accordance with the Fair Wage Resolution. I am glad to say, however, that his association with the masters and the men has resulted in a settlement of the recent dispute, and an agreement between them which I have every reason to hope will be permanent.

  State of Burial Grounds in the Island of Lewis.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord-Advocate whether he is aware that the County and Chief District Sanitary Inspector for Ross and Cromarty states in his last annual report that the burial grounds of Kirivig, Balinakill, and Little Bernera, Island of Lewis, are still in an unsatisfactory condition and demand an early remedy, many of the coffins at Balinakill being within two feet of the surface; and is he now able to state what action it is proposed to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Scott Dickson.) I am informed that the Lewis District Committee are now asking for the medical officer's certificates to enable them to take the necessary steps to have these burial grounds closed. The Local Government Board are in communication

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  with the parish council as to the provision of new burial grounds.

  Grant for Construction of a Road from Hoy to Rackwick.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Lord-Advocate whether he is aware, with reference to the grant from the Congested Districts Board for the construction of a road from Hoy to Rackwick, that the money was originally voted for the shorter and more direct road, and that it now appears that a longer and more expensive road is proposed, and that the grant will be expended on that portion, which may be of individual benefit, but which is of no advantage to the Rackwick village; and whether a further grant will be made to complete the road to the Rackwick village.
  (Answered by Mr. Scott Dickson.) The Congested Districts Board have agreed that the grant originally voted for a road from Hoy to Rackwick by a shorter line may be applied in construction of a road following a different route which is now put forward as of greater public convenience by the county council. The grant will not be paid unless the road is completed.

  Inspection of Meat.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he has authorised the issue of a circular by the Medical Officer of Health for Tottenham District requesting meat traders to provide forks for the use of intending purchasers to hold and examine meat; and, if so, what section of the Public Health Act, or other statute, empowers such action.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The circular was not authorised by me. I understand that it was not intended as a request which could be legally enforced, but rather as a suggestion in the general interests of the public health.

  The County of Essex.
  LIEUT-COLONEL TUFNELL: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he has received a petition from the Essex Field Club against the proposed removal of ten parishes from
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  Essex to Hertfordshire, and what steps, if any, are being taken in the matter; also if he is aware that three parishes removed from Essex to Cambridgeshire for administrative purposes only, in 1894, are now treated as entirely belonging to the latter county, and that all public notices deal with these parishes as being in Cambridgeshire, and the ordnance maps are now altered to recognise these three parishes as being part of Cambridgeshire.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) I have received the petition referred to. A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order altering the two administrative counties had been read a second time in this House; but the Essex County Council have petitioned against it, and the matter will now come before a Select Committee. Representations to the effect of the statement in the latter part of the Question are contained in the letter from the Essex Field Club; but I understand that whilst the ordnance maps show the three parishes referred to as being part of the administrative county of Cambridge, they also indicate that there are purposes for which they do not form part of that county.

  Compressed Flour.
  MR. JOHN HUTTON: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been called by the director of the Victualling Department to an invention enabling flour to be compressed at little cost in such a way that it may be stored for many years; and whether he proposes to make any practical use of the invention.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) If the hon. Member's Question refers to a preparation invented by Lord Masham, the attention of the Admiralty has already been drawn to it, and it has been tested in the Victualling Department. The Report is not altogether favourable, and it is not at present intended to make any use of these compressed cakes.

  Amount Realised by Sale of Obsolete War Vessels.
  MR. CREMER: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what amount has been realised by

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  the sale of the war vessels which were recently condemned by the Admiralty as obsolete or useless.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The obsolete ships sold during the present financial year have realised about £138,000.

  The Meteorological Office.
  SIR JOHN TUKE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the present constitution of the Meteorological Office; what is its relation to the Royal Society; and how far the recommendations of the Treasury Committee on the Meteorological Grant have been acted on.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) I am about to lay a Treasury Minute upon the Table of the House which deals with the present constitution of the Meteorological Office, and this, I think, will afford my hon. friend the information he desires.

  Outbreak of Necrosis.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in addition to the case of necrosis reported in March, two other cases have occurred recently at the same factory.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) Yes, Sir. Two other cases have been reported since from the same factory. One was the case of a woman employed as a boxer of thoroughly died matches, who had a tooth extracted and returned to work directly afterwards without informing the firm and obtaining a certificate of fitness as required by the special rules. The attack was a first attack. The other was the case of a man who had phosphorus poisoning some years ago and had been employed since in other work, latterly as a night watchman. In the latter employment, which is one lying outside the scope of the rules, it would be his duty to visit the dipping and other rooms at night, but it is doubtful at present whether the case is one of phosphorus necrosis at all. I am now in possession of reports in all three cases, though the investigation of the third case
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  is not yet complete; and, in view of the fact that they all occurred atone factory, I have called for a special report on the circumstances in which they arose, and on the working of the special rules in that factory.

  Women Undergoing Penal Servitude for Infanticide.
  MR. SLACK: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many women are now detained in convict prisons either undergoing sentences of penal servitude or commuted capital sentences for infanticide.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I have called for this information, and when it has been obtained I shall be happy to communicate it to the hon. Member.

  Commitment Orders for Non payment of Poor Rates—Discretion of Police.
  MR. H. J. WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that when a distraint has been ordered for default in paying poor rates, when the police have reported that the defendant has no goods to distrain on and magistrates have made a commitment order, it depends on the discretion and arrangements of the police whether the defendant is imprisoned for the period ordered by the magistrates, or whether he has an additional day or two of detention in the police cell until the police take him to prison; whether he will lay upon the Table a copy of the circular issued some twenty years ago by the Home Office, drawing the attention of magistrates' clerks to this question; whether he will send a copy of that circular, or a similar circular, to magistrates' clerks; and whether he will take some other steps to prevent the inequality which arises in the period of detention, which depends on the distance at which the defendant may reside from the police station.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The circular to which the hon. Member refers was issued on April 22nd, 1889, and has been more than once reissued. It is as follows:—"I am directed

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  by the Secretary of State to acquaint you that his attention has been called to the apparent hardship which occurs when a prisoner sentenced to a term of imprisonment by a Court of summary jurisdiction is not conveyed to prison on the same day on which sentence is passed. The law requires that a sentence of a Court of summary jurisdiction should, unless otherwise ordered, be reckoned from the date of the prisoner's reception into the prison; and if, therefore, the prisoner is detained for a night in the police cells before removal to prison, he is apt to complain that he has to undergo one day's punishment beyond the term intended by the justices. It is probable that in passing sentence this circumstance is duly taken into account by the justices; but in order to put an end to complaints of the character above described, the Secretary of State would suggest for the consideration of the magistrates of your bench that in future, in cases where the prisoner will remain in custody after the sentence is passed, but cannot be taken to the prison the same day, they should insert in the commitment an express order that the sentence is to be reckoned from the date on which it was passed." This circular applies to cases where prisoners are committed direct from the Court to prison; but I understand that the case which the hon. Member has in mind is one where the defendant was committed in default of distress, and where, therefore, he was not in custody when the commitment was issued. In such a case it appears to me to be the duty of the police, on arresting the defendant, to convey him to prison with promptitude, and I think they ought, so far as they safely can, to avoid arresting a prisoner at an hour when it would be necessary to detain him for a night in the police cells. If any cases where the police are alleged to have acted otherwise are brought to my notice, I will make inquiry and consider whether the issue of a circular to the police or any other action is called for.

  Caning of Children in Elementary School at Preston for Non payment of Fees.
  SIR JOHN GORST: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to an allegation, made at a
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  meeting of the town council of Preston on May 25th by several members of the council, that children were caned in the elementary school of that borough for not bringing their school fees; whether any inquiry is being made into the truth of the statement; whether the Board of Education will call for a report on the matter from the education committee of the Preston Town Council, and will, if necessary, express its disapproval of such a method of collecting school fees; and whether the payment of fees in the elementary schools is sanctioned by the Board of Education.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) I have not seen the statement referred to, nor has any member of the town council of Preston drawn the attention of the Board to the alleged cases of coming. I will, however, make inquiries of the local education authority.

  Postal Officials and Trade Societies.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the Controller of Telegraphs, Dublin, in submitting a complaint about delay on Press messages to the Dublin secretary, stated that an extract from a Dublin evening paper, which accompanied the complaint, was taken from a service organ and was written by officers disloyal to the Department; and whether, in view of the official records of the officers referred to, he will take steps to prevent charges of this kind being made against those who identify themselves with associations having as their object the improvement of the prospects of Post Office officials.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The report from the Controller of Telegraphs at Dublin, to which the hon. Member refers, has not been brought before me; but if the words of which he complains were used by the Controller of those responsible for certain articles recently published in a journal which announces itself to be the "Official Organ of the Association of Irish Post Office Clerks," I consider he was completely justified in using them.

  Retired Postal and Telegraph Officials in Receipt of Pensions.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will order a Return to be issued stating the number of postal and telegraph officials in Great Britain and Ireland respectively in receipt at the present time of a pension from the Department, and the number of such who have been in receipt of same for the past ten years; also the number of officials in Great Britain and Ireland respectively who have died in the service with upwards of five years service.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The number of Post Office pensioners at the present time is as follows:—Great Britain, 6,369; Ireland, 471. Of this number 1,762 in Great Britain and 163 in Ireland have drawn their pensions for the past ten years. The number of officials in Great Britain and Ireland who died in the year ending December 31st, 1904, after as much as five years service, was 179 and 22 respectively.

  Telegraphic Delays at Dublin.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Postmaster-General if his attention has been drawn to complaints about telegraphic delay recently made in Dublin; can he say what is the cause of the delay; is he aware that a number of officers who had hitherto been solely employed in the instrument room are doing duty daily in the sorting office, and that, though the instrument room is meagrely staffed, there are several fully qualified male and female learners awaiting appointment in Dublin for upwards of two years; and, if so, what steps will be taken in the matter.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) My attention has not been drawn to complaints about delay to telegrams in Dublin. I am aware that owing to the falling off in telegraph business certain officers have been transfered from telegraph to postal work to prevent the instrument room being overstaffed.

  Appeal to Postmaster-General of Mr. Fox, of Portadown.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he has yet received the appeal of Mr. Fox, of Porta-
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  down against the award of the local officials; whether he can state the date upon which he forwarded the appeal and the date upon which the Postmaster-General received it; and whether it is usual to ask an officer to perform punishment against which he appealed some months before the Postmaster-General receives the papers from the local authorities.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) Mr. Fox's appeal of February 28th was transmitted to the secretary, after inquiry in Ireland, on April 6th. The matter, though trivial, was complicated, and farther inquiry was found necessary. The appeal was submitted to me for final decision on the 3rd inst., and I came to the conclusion that the two hours extra work which Mr. Fox was required to perform was not an excessive punishment for his carelessness. The other matters referred to by the hon. Member are dealt with in my reply to his Question of the 8th ultimo.†

  Temporary Relief of Telegraph and Telephone Operators
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Postmaster-General whether the rule in the postal telegraph, and telephone departments that no operator can leave the instruments of which he has charge without being substituted by a colleague, is still in force; whether he is aware that an order has been issued at Bristol that no male or female operator can be permitted relief from circuit duties for any purpose in excess of five minutes per day, otherwise the time has to be made good and the matter is recorded against the officer; whether the Postmaster-General will state if such a system is in existence in any other section of the Civil Service; and whether he will state if the rule was issued with his sanction.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) There is no rule prescribing what steps should be taken to provide for the duty of a telegraphist during short occasional absences, any necessary arrangements being made at the discretion of the controlling officers. It was necessary to exercise some check on occasional absences at Bristol, where
  † See (4) Debates, cxlv., 1109.

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  there had been some laxity; but regulations recently issued with this object were perhaps somewhat stringent, and they are being modified.

  Mauritius-Reunion Cable.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the announcement by the French Under-Secretary of State for Posts, that an agreement has been concluded directly between His Majesty's Government and France for the laying of a cable between Mauritius and Réunion to connect with the Réunion-Madagascar cable for which funds were voted in France more than a year ago; whether any information can be given as to the nature and details of the agreement; whether the Cables Committee recommended by Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Committee has been organised; and, if so, whether the present international agreement is a first result of the work of any such Committee.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) Negotiations have been in progress between the British and French Post Offices with regard to the laying of a cable between Mauritius and Réunion, but no definite agreement has been arrived at. The Cables Committee recommended by Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Committee was to bean extension of the Inter-Departmental Committee known as the Cables (Landing Rights) Committee, which has been established for some years. The question of the proposed Mauritius-Réunion cable has been under the consideration of the latter Committee.

  Suggested Extension of House of Commons Library.
  MR. PARTINGTON: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the room to the north of the present library rooms is a portion of the accommodation originally set apart for Members of the House of Commons; whether the books therein form part of the library of the House of Commons; and whether arrangements to restore the use of the room to its original purpose can now be made.
  936
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) It is believed that the facts are as stated; but the First Commissioner is unable at present to say whether the suggestion of the hon. Member is practicable or not.

  Value of Securities held by the National Debt Commissioners.
  DR. MACNAMARA: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in the Return relating to the National Debt (Cd. 2516, pp. 7 and 9) the value of the Suez Canal shares held by the Government is not estimated at the market value on a given day; and, if so, will he explain why is the method not applied to the securities held by the National Debt Commissioners on account, of the savings banks.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) It has been the practice to show the estimated value of the Suez Canal shares at current market price in the Annual Returns of the National Debt, and I think the computation is of some interest. The reasons which led the Select Committee on Savings Banks to recommend the discontinuance of the similar practice in the case of the savings banks funds will be found stated in their Report.

  Deaths from Plague in India.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that in India in 1901 the total deaths from plague were returned at 273,679, in 1902 the number rose to 577,427, in 1903 it reached 851,263, and in 1904 it was 1,022,299; and whether he can state what steps are being taken by the Government for the prevention of the spread of plague.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am aware of the lamentable mortality from plague indicated by the figures quoted by the hon. Member. The Government is endeavouring, while necessarily respecting the feelings and the prejudices of the people, to assist them by every possible means to help themselves, and to bring within their reach all material means to that end. It is promoting, in the matter of prevention, the more efficient sanitation and

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  cleansing of towns and villages, the destruction of rats and mice, and the means of inoculation. It is enlisting and organising unofficial help by the formation of Health and Charitable Committees, and has defined the duties of municipalities and other similar bodies in respect of giving intelligence, of providing hospitals and free sites for camps, and of succouring homeless wayfarers. On the occasion of any outbreak of plague, it encourages and, through its medical and administrative officers, assists the residents to disinfect their houses and property, to isolate the sick, to destroy infected materials, and to evacuate plague-stricken dwellings and sites. It gives compensation for loss of property to the poor, and assists them to rehouse themselves. It maintains laboratories for the preparation of fluid for inoculation, and for the systematic study and diagnosis of the disease; and it has placed at the disposal of an Advisory Committee of the highest authority in this country a grant of money for meeting the expenses of a scientific expedition, which is now carrying out further plague investigations in India.

  Military Expenditure in India.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for India at what stations it is proposed to expend the ten lakhs on extra land for troops, additional to the twenty-two lakhs for barracks and the seven lakhs for hutting taken in the Budget in connection with Lord Kitchener's redistribution scheme.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Government of India have recently that no details of this expenditure can be furnished, as the programme of redistribution has not yet been finally determined on.

  The Indian Viceroy's Council.
  MR. BUCHANAN: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether it is proposed to make any alteration in the constitution of the Viceroy's Council, or to modify in any respect the powers of the Commander-in-Chief or the Military Member of Council.
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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The question of the powers and responsibilities of the Commander-in-Chief in India and of the member of the Governor-General's Council in charge of the Military Department has recently been under the consideration of His Majesty's Government. I am unable to make any statement on the subject at present, but I propose to lay Papers upon the Table very shortly.

  Peat Bogs, Beet Culture, and Transit in Ireland.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state whether any further Report has been received by the Department of Agriculture respecting experiments to utilise the peat bogs of Ireland, or with respect to beet culture in Ireland; or whether the Department has received any further powers with regard to transit since the House passed its Resolution.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Department have not yet received any further Reports, either on the utilisation of peat bogs in Ireland or on the cultivation of the beet. Their experiment as regards the manufacture of peat fuel is being continued. The Answer to the last part of the Question is also in the negative.

  Condition of Salmon Weir and Sluices on Belclare River, Westport
  DR. AMBROSE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the condition of the salmon weir and sluices on the Belclare River, near Westport, which runs though lands now the property of the Congested Districts Board; whether he is aware that owing to the sluices being kept down and the salmon gap closed the neighbouring lands are flooded for the greater part of the year; and whether he will see that the Board will set them right.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Board have referred this matter to the Department of Agriculture, and the latter will have an inspection made as soon as possible.

  Qualifications of Irish Resident Magistrates.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what legal qualifications, if any, are required for the position of resident magistrate in Ireland; and whether he can state how many resident magistrates have been appointed who were barristers or solicitors, and how many who were formerly in the Army or Navy or political service.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) No legal qualifications are prescribed by statute or otherwise, but the Lord-Lieutenant selects for these appointments persons of whose competency he is satisfied. Of the sixty-six resident magistrates now serving, twenty-two were barristers or solicitors, eleven were in the Army or Navy, and twenty-five were constabulary officers.

  Warden Estate, Sneem.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that seven tenants on the Warden Estate at Sneem, who were scheduled as evicted tenants under the sale negotiations, have been processed for interest by the landlord, although they have not yet been reinstated; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Estates Commissioners have no knowledge whether the fact is as stated in the Question; but, if it be so, the matter is not one in which any steps on the part of the Executive are called for.

  Promotion of Officials in the Natural History Museum, Dublin.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what are the regulations under which promotion takes place among the officials of the Natural History Museum, Dublin; is he aware that some officials are compelled to pass a further examination before obtaining the rank of museum assistant whilst others are promoted without such further examination; and, in view of the fact that an official of English birth has lately been promoted to the post of museum assistant without
  940
  having had to undergo the further examination, he will explain why an Irish official, an honours graduate in natural science of the Royal University of Ireland, who temporarily occupied the position of museum assistant during one year, and has since been employed as technical assistant in the Natural History Museum, is required, although nominated for the post of museum assistant by the keeper of the Natural History Museum, to pass a further examination in subjects quite foreign to the work of the museum.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Department are in correspondence with the Treasury and the Civil Service Commissioners on the question of the mode of appointment of assistants in the Dublin Museum of Science and Art.

  Fines imposed at Coolmagort Petty Sessions—Overruling of Magistrates' Decision.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds the fishery branch of the Department of Agriculture differed from the decision of the local magistrates at Coolmagort Petty Sessions in the matter of the reduction of fines imposed on John O'Donoghue and J. Sullivan; and can he say why the unanimous decision of the local magistrates has been overruled.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I must, I in accordance with the invariable practice, decline to give the information asked for.

  Berridge Estate, Connemara.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the Congested Districts Board have declined to purchase the Berridge Estate, Connemara, on the ground that there was no agricultural land available for the enlargement of the small uneconomic holdings on this estate, he will advise the Board to reconsider the question of purchase, on the ground that the mountain lands adjoining, or in close proximity to those holdings, if given to the tenants would considerably enhance the value of those

  941
  holdings; and whether, in view of the character of the uneconomic holdings on this estate, the Estates Commissioners would be advised not to sanction a sale direct to the tenants, unless they were satisfied that the holdings could be enlarged and rendered economic.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Board have fully considered the question of purchasing this estate, but have decided not to do so for the reason stated in the Question. The mountain land referred to is already occupied by the tenants for grazing purposes. The estate has not come before the Estates Commissioners, and the are therefore unable to express an opinion upon the point raised in the concluding part of the Question.

  O'Donel Estate, Newport, County Mayo.
  DR. AMBROSE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the cause of the delay in the sale to the Congested Districts Board of the O'Donel Estate at Newport, county Mayo.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Board have, in pursuance of Sections 7 and 77 of the Act, issued a request to the Land Judge for particulars and documents in order that an inspection of the estate may be made. The particulars and documents have not yet been received by the Board.

  Marine Works in County Mayo.
  DR. AMBROSE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the cause of the delay in the carrying out of the marine works in county Mayo, for which a grant has been made under the Marine Works (Ireland) Act; and if he can say whether those works will be commenced in the near future.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) This matter is still under consideration, and, as I informed the hon. Member on Thursday† last, I am not yet in a position to make a definite statement on the subject.
  † See page 428.

  Annual Report on Army Recruiting— Causes of Rejection.
  MR. H. J. WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War why the Annual Report on Recruiting does not now specify, as in previous years, the causes of rejection; and will he state in what publication the causes of rejection can be found.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The detailed causes of rejection will be found in the Army Medical Annual Report. The Report for 1903 was presented to the House last month, and copies will shortly be in the hands of Members.

  Boers Detained as Prisoners of War in Ceylon.
  DR. MACNAMARA: To ask the Secretary of State for War how many Boers are still detained as prisoners of war in Ceylon; what is the reason of their detention so long after the conclusion of peace, and for how long is it intended that this detention shall continue; and whether his attention has been directed to an action brought against H. Engelbrecht, a Boer prisoner of war, in the course of which action the Judge said that the allowance made by the Government to the prisoner was hardly sufficient to enable him to pay for food, clothing, shelter, and washing; and whether he intends to take any action in view of this statement.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) 1. Engelbrecht is the only one out of the number still remaining in Ceylon. 2. He was released in September, 1903, with four others, these being the only recalcitrant prisoners of war remaining at that time, and he was paid an allowance of one rupee a day, being required to make his own arrangements for his maintenance. He was informed that he would return to South Africa only if he made the necessary declaration of allegiance, but that he would at any time be given a passage to any other country. 3. I have not seen an account of the action to which reference is made, but I do not suppose that the allowance is designed to maintain an able-bodied man in idleness.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Alleged Improper Arrest of a Militia Private.
    COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that H. Cook, late a private in the Bedfordshire Militia, and now in private employment in Essex, was arrested by a policeman at Abridge on Monday, May 29th, and conveyed as a prisoner to Epping and detained there in custody until May 31st, when he was discharged without any further explanation being given; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any, and, if any, what, action in the matter.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVKNPORT,): Nothing is known at the War Office of the matter mentioned in the Question. I think this is a case which can be left to the discretion of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief the Eastern Command, and I do not, therefore, propose to take any action in the matter.

    The Police and the Militia.
    SIR CARNE RASCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to a case at; the Liverpool Assizes, where a police constable described a prisoner as a lazy, idle man, only good for the Militia, and to the circular of the Superintendent Hertford Police, advising the publicans to refuse to serve Militiamen; and whether he will take steps to prevent such action on the part of the authorities, with a view to encouraging recruiting. As this Question has been altered at the Table, may I say I am of opinion that such action does not encourage recruiting.
    MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: As regards the first case a newspaper extract was forwarded to the War Office, and has been referred to the General Officer Commanding concerned. As regards the second case, I will read out to the House the circular in question, which runs as follows: "The Hertfordshire Militia assemble at Hertford on Monday, May 15th, and should be in the barracks by
    944
    10 a.m. I shall be glad if you will show kindness to these men by not allowing them to enter your premises when they should be at the barracks. By doing this you will greatly assist the police and military authorities, and keep the men out of trouble." This circular was evidently kindly meant, and not intended in any way to cast reflection on the Militia.

    Militia Training.
    MR. SPEAR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that when recruiting was in progress for the Cornwall and Devon Miners Royal Garrison Artillery Militia and for the Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineers Militia, the recruits were given to understand that the period of training would be for forty-one and fifty-six days repectively, and that it was only after the statutory notice had been issued, and the recruits had been enlisted for the full period, that orders were given for curtailment of the training to twenty-seven and forty-one days respectively; and whether, in the interests of recruiting, he will take steps to prevent such alterations of the arrangements in future.
    MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: As regards the Cornwall and Devon Miners R.G.A., Militia, it must be remembered that garrison artillery units train, in accordance with Militia Regulations, every third year for forty-one days, and in other years for twenty-seven days only. This unit was exceptionally allowed to train for forty-one days in 1903 and 1904, but in view of other and more pressing requirements no provision was made for such extended training during 1905. As regards the Royal Monmouth R.E. Militia, the period of training for the Field Company during the present year will be fifty-five days, and for the Fortress. Company forty-eight days.

    Military Works Loan Bill.
    MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War when will the Military Works Loan Bill be introduced.
    MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The sums already available under the Military

    945
    Works Acts are sufficient to meet all the estimated expenditure, and there is no present intention of asking for further borrowing powers for works expenditure after the total sum authorised is exhausted. No Military Works Bill will therefore be required this year.
    MR. BUCHANAN: Will it not be necessary to introduce a Bill to enable any money to be spent after this year?
    MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: No Sir.

    Education of Indian Immigrants in Natal.
    MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will consider the advisability of making representations to the Government of Natal with a view to the provision of adequate facilities for the industrial and primary education of Indian immigrants in that colony; and whether he has any official information bearing upon the statements in the latest official Report by Mr. P. A. Barnett, the Superintendent of Education, as to the effect of the present neglect in this respect in confining the Indian population to petty industries, in discouraging it from acquiring arts and crafts, and in increasing crime.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): I am not in a position, in the circumstances, to make such representations to the Government of a self-governing Colony on a matter within its competence. I notice that the amount set down in the Natal Estimates for Indian education for 1904–5 is £5,588 as compared with £4,140 for the previous year. The subject is one for the consideration of the local Government and for discussion in the local Parliament.

    The Transvaal Loan.
    MR. AINSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary of Stats for the Colonies who acted on behalf of the Transvaal Government in the negotiations which led to the understanding that the Transvaal would issue a loan for payment to Great Britain, which loan
    946
    the mineowners were prepared to underwrite when issued.
    MR. LYTTELTON: Lord Milner was cognisant of the course of the proceedings. I would point out to the hon. Member that the issue of a loan was a matter to be finally determined by the Legislative Council, and at the time when Mr. Chamberlain was in the Transvaal that Council still consisted of official members only, so that his object was to secure the approval of a fully representative meeting for the principle of a contribution to be subsequently given effect to by a Legislative Council by the passing of the usual form of a Loan Ordinance.
    MR. AINSWORTH: Was there any authority m South Africa representing the Government of South Africa which undertook to issue the loan?
    MR. LYTTELTON: No. Lord Milner was cognisant of the course of those negotiations, but was not present at them.

    Importation of Canadian Cattle.
    SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has observed that the hon. Sydney Fisher, Minister of Agriculture in the Dominion Cabinet, has declared that the continuance by Great Britain of an embargo on Canadian cattle could only be described in his opinion as an unfriendly act; and also that there is much irritation on the part of Canadian agriculturists respecting the matter; and whether, in view of the protest recently communicated by the High Commissioner of Canada, he will advise the Imperial Government to make such concessions as will allay the existing irritation and conduce to a better understanding with the Canadian Government on this question.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I have seen such a statement as the hon. Member refers to attributed to the Canadian Minister of Agriculture, but I am not aware that the report is accurate. This question has attracted, for some years past, considerable attention in Canada, and although

    947
    no such protest as the hon. Member mentions has reached me through the High Commissioner, the subject is one which has been separately considered by no less than five succesive Presidents of the Board of Agriculture as well as by my predecessors and myself, with the most earnest desire to meet the wishes of those interested in the matter in Canada. My right hon. friend the President of the Board of Agriculture feels it impossible to depart from a policy deliberately arrived at and to incur the risk which undoubtedly attaches to the importation of live cattle from a country which, though it may be at a given moment free from cattle disease itself, has an open frontier of over 4,000 miles in extent. I have no doubt that the Canadian Government and public fully appreciate the gravity of the risks involved, and the facilities given for the importation of fat cattle, subject to slaughter on arrival, appear to me to be calculated to reduce to the utmost any hardship which the necessary restrictions on importation impose on the industry.
    MR. BUCHANAN: Has there been any disease in Canada since this Bill passed into law?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Education of Children on Indian Tea Plantations.
    MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will ascertain when the further reports from the Government of Bengal and the Chief Commissioner of Assam respecting the education of children on plantations, are likely to be submitted; and will he cause statistics to be furnished as to the number of children of a school-going age in Indian plantations, such as the Secretary of State for the Colonies has requested to be supplied annually in Ceylon by the Director of Public Instruction with regard to Indian coolie children on estates in that colony.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): I have already asked the Government of India to expedite the further reports promised on this subject. A
    948
    copy of the hon. Member's Question will be transmitted to that Government, in order that they may consider whether the statistics asked for can be obtained.

    Mountain Guns for Afghanistan.
    MR. RUNCIMAN: On behalf of the Junior Member for Old-ham (Mr. CHURCHILL), I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the claim of Mr. W. D. Houghton, of the Sankey Wire Mills, Warrington, in respect of consignments of forgings for mountain guns, ordered by the Amir of Afghanistan, and manufactured by Messrs. Armstrong, Whitworth, and Company, and which have been detained by the Indian Government, although the Indian Government have allowed a German firm to deliver to the Amir both mountain guns and field pieces; and what were the reasons which induced the Government of India to accord preference to German manufacturers to the detriment of a Lancashire firm.
    MR. BRODRICK: I have been in correspondence with the representatives of Mr. Houghton, and explained to them the position of the Government of India in the matter of his claims. Owing to a promise to permit the importation of certain German guns having been given to the predecessor of the present Amir by the Government of India in May, 1901, certain Krupp guns were allowed to pass to Kabul in the year 1902; but none have been since transmitted.

    Landlords' Income-Tax Allowances.
    MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the reduction of one-sixth, usually allowed to landlords from the income charges under Schedule A for repairs, will in future be reduced to a smaller percentage in cases where, by lease or yearly agreement, tenants undertake to keep the decorations and internal fittings in good condition; and whether this new scale will be effectively put in force throughout the whole country, and on all classes of property.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): No, Sir. The

    949
    abatement is, with some not material exceptions in certain special circumstances, allowed in full on the amount at which house property is assessed. But, in making the assessment, regard is had to the tenant's obligations in respect of repairs, and a proportionate addition is made to the reserved rental in order to arrive at the rack-rental as defined in the Income-Tax Acts. This is not a new principle. It is prescribed in the Acts, and is, I believe, always acted upon by the Local Commissioners of Income-Tax by whom the assessments are made.

    Interest on Loans under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts.
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what is the reason for increasing the rate of interest under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts from 3½ per cent. to 4 per cent.; and whether the Treasury would consider the necessity for changing same, and bringing it into agreement with the financial arrangements of The Land Act, 1903.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): These loans are made out of the Local Loans Fund, and cannot, therefore, be made subject to the financial arrangements under the Land Act. The rates of interest on loans out of the Local Loans Fund had to be increased in view of the less favourable terms on which money can be raised to supply the requirements of the fund.

    Irish Asylum Loans—Rate of Interest.
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether representations have been made by the Kerry County Council and other similar bodies as to the rates of interest charged by the Board of Works on asylum loans in Ireland; and whether he can take any steps to have these rates reasonably reduced.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: In the last months of 1903 four resolutions on the subject referred to by the hon. Member were received by the Board of Works. Loans for lunatic asylums are advanced out of the Local Loans Fund,
    950
    and are, therefore, subject to the conditions as regards the rates of interest which I have just described to the hon. Member.

    Cattle Mutilation at Hylton.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received information that a calf, the property of one Hutchinson, of Highford Farm, Hylton near Sunderland, had been discovered with its hind legs cut off and otherwise mutilated; and whether this matter will be fully investigated, and if up to the present any motive has been assigned.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): I find on inquiry that there has been no such case of mutilation of a calf as the Question suggests. A complaint was received by the police that a calf had been stolen, and on investigation the slaughtered and dressed carcass was found. One hind quarter had been removed and hidden. The motive was clearly robbery. The police have not yet succeeded in tracing the thieves.

    Ilkeston Domestic Broil.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the conviction of an Ilkley labourer at Otley, on May 19th, 1905, who pleaded guilty to branding his wife's face with a toasting fork, and otherwise cruelly ill-treating her; and will he say whether this person was proceeded against in the ordinary way, and what was the penalty inflicted.
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I find on inquiry that the defendant in question was convicted of striking his wife on the shoulder and was fined 2s. 6d. and costs. There was never any suggestion that he had branded her; but it appears that he suggested in cross-examination that she had "brayed" him on the face with a toasting fork.

    Chichester Election—Alleged Boycotting.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for

    951
    the Home Department whether he is aware that the Rev. W. J. Hermann Newman, of Eastdean Vicarage, Chichester, has by letter discontinued all business dealings with Mr. Pennicott, a baker, and also a churchwarden in Chichester, because Mr. Pennicott nominated and otherwise supported Mr. Allen, the unsuccessful candidate in the recent Parliamentary election; whether he is aware that action of this sort is, in Ireland, described as boycotting and intimidation, and is dealt with by special law; and will he say whether he intends to take any, and, if any, what, action in the matter.
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I have seen a report of this matter in a newspaper cutting which the hon. Member has kindly sent me. If the account there given is accurate, an individual clergyman, without assigning any reason, withdrew his custom from an individual tradesman. It is clear that in such circumstances I have no power to take any action.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that in Ireland cases of this kind would lead to prosecution? Why the difference between the two countries?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Leek Post Office.
    MR. BILL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General when it is proposed to commence the erection of the new post office at Leek.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): Money for building the new post office at Leek has been provided in the Estimates for the current year, and a beginning will, it is hoped, be made as soon as the legal arrangements for the exchange of ground with the corporation have been completed.

    Canadian Exports to the United Kingdom.
    MR. BRIGHT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he can state the exports of eggs, butter, creamery, hogs, cattle,
    952
    and oats from Canada to the United Kingdom for the first five months of this year as compared with the exports of the same period of last year.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW,): If the hon. Member will put down a Question without a star, the information, so far as it is available, shall be given in the form of a table.

    Motor-Cars in Richmond Park.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the hon. Member for the Chorley Division, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if his attention has been called to the fact that motors are constantly driven in Richmond Park at speeds far exceeding that permitted by orders; and if he will, in the public interest, insist that the orders are strictly carried out.
    LORD BALCARRES: The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The First Commissioner is determined to enforce the regulations as to speed, and several persons have been summoned with that object. He is unable to make any further statement pending judgment in the case which has been stated for the High Court and which is to be heard on Thursday of this week.

    Selection of Pupils for Enrolment in Supplementary Courses in Scotland.
    MR. CALDWELL: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether the Scotch Education Department will consider the expediency of directing His Majesty's Inspectors of Schools to hold annually in every State-aided school an individual examination of all children on the school register of twelve years of age, with reference to their fitness to enter upon the supplementary course of instruction.
    THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): The Scotch Education Department has no reason to be dissatisfied with the working of the present method of selecting pupils for enrolment in supplementary courses, and does not, as at present advised,

    953
    propose to institute such an examination as that suggested by the hon. Member.

    Embezzlement Cases in Ireland.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many prosecutions took place in Ireland during the past twelve months for embezzlement, and how many of these cases were in Ulster.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALTER LONG,): In 1904, sixty-nine persons were prosecuted; and, of these, fourteen were prosecuted in Ulster.

    Blennerhassett Estate, County Kerry.
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received an application from Mr. Maurice Flaherty, an evicted tenant on the Blennerhassett Estate, county Kerry; and, if so, what steps they have taken towards effecting the reinstatement of the applicant.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The application has been received, but no opportunity for dealing with it has arisen, as the estate has not yet come before the Commissioners.
    MR. MURPHY: Do the Government, then, intend to do nothing in these cases?
    MR. WALTER LONG: I have no power to act if no application is made.

    Morrogh Bernard Estate, County Kerry.
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any application has been lodged with the Estates Commissioners for the sale of the Morrogh Bernard Estate, county Kerry; and if any steps are being taken by them to deal with the cases of evicted tenants on this estate who have sent applications to the Commissioners.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The Answer to both inquiries is in the negative.

    Irish Local Government Board Auditors— Mr. Browne's Qualifications.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the name of the chartered or incorporated society from which Mr. Browne, Local Government Board auditor, holds a certificate.
    MR. WALTER LONG: Mr. Browne holds a senior certificate from the London Chamber of Commerce, and also a first class certificate from the Society of Arts.
    MR. MACVEAGH: The other day the right hon. Gentleman said Mr. Browne held the certificate of the Institute of Chartered Accountants. Now it appears he does not.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I did not say that.

    Limavady Magisterial Bench.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of justices of the peace on the Limavady Bench (county Deny), and the number of Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Catholics respectively.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The number is eleven, of whom six are believed to be members of the Irish Church, three to be Presbyterians, one a Roman Catholic, and one a Methodist.

    Outrages (Ireland) Return.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the Parliamentary Return issued a fortnight ago under the title Outrages (Ireland), took cognisance of outrages only, or whether it included all other offences of an indictable character.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I beg to refer the hon. Member to the Return itself, which very explicitly answers his Question.

    Irish Local Government Account Forms.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant

    955
    of Ireland whether he can state if, after the passing of the Local Government Act, 1898, Mr. Ellis, an auditor under the Local Government Board, devised; and copyrighted certain account forms, including a ledger to last for five years; whether he made arrangements with Dollard and Co., printers, to produce same for sale to the public bodies whose accounts he was auditing; whether Mr. Ellis has now placed a contract with Helys, Limited, printers, for the production, in connection with The Public Bodies Order, 1904, of copyrighted books to be sold to public bodies under the control of the Department of which Mr. Ellis is an official; and, if so, whether he can state the profits which accrued to Mr. Ellis from the copyrighting of the ledger and other works.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The Local Government Board have no information as to the alleged arrangements between Mr. Ellis and the publishing firms referred to.
    MR. MACVEAGH: Then does the right hon. Gentleman decline to inquire?
    MR. WALTER LONG: I see no object in holding an inquiry.
    MR. MACVEAGH: It is a public fraud.

    Constable Adams, of Wicklow.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Wicklow, I beg to ask the Chief, Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland (1) how many constables of longer service than Constable Adams and without any unfavourable records are there on the promotion list in the county of Wicklow; (2) whether any special qualification exists in Adams' case to entitle him to promotion before his senior comrades; (3) whether it is contrary to the regulations for this constable's wife and family to occupy married quarters; (4) whether he has any unfavourable records; and, if so, how many, and (5) was he ever cautioned because of infringement of the rules of the service.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The Answer to the third inquiry is in the negative.
    956
    The remaining inquiries deal with matters of discipline, as to which I must decline to give any information.

    Sir Douglas Brooke's Speech.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, having regard to a statement recently made in a speech by Sir Douglas Brooke, Baronet, a magistrate and deputy-lieutenant of the county of Fermanagh, at Maguires-bridge in that county, while addressing an audience of Orangemen, that at the time of Mr. Gladstone's second Home Rule Bill he had given out rifles to his Protestant tenantry and had taught some of those Protestants how to shoot those rifles straight, and that there were a good many of those rifles still in the country, any search will be instituted for concealed arms among the tenantry of Sir Douglas Brooke, similar to the search for arms instituted by the direction of the Government among the tenants of the De Freyne Estate; and, if not, whether he can explain the different methods of administration with respect to the concealment of arms in Orange districts and in Nationalist districts; and whether the Lord Chancellor's attention has again been called to Sir Douglas Brooke's speech, with a view to his removal from the commission of the peace.
    MR. WALTER LONG: As I stated on May 29th. † I must decline to make any announcement as to the intention to search for unlicensed firearms. No question of religion arises in connection with this matter. Searches are made whenever and wherever there is reason to believe that arms are illegally kept. As regards the concluding inquiry of the Question, the Lord Chancellor's attention has already been called to the speech, but I will again bring the matter before him.

    Faha National School—Case of Miss O'Leary.
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Miss E. O'Leary, who was employed as
    † See page 95.

    957
    workmistress at Faha National School, district 57, circuit 22, county Kerry, for over forty years, was recently compelled to retire without any pension or allowance of any kind whatever; and whether the Commissioners of Education in Ireland have any means at their disposal to give some assistance to Miss O'Leary in view of her length of service.
    MR. WALTER LONG: Miss O'Leary's services were discontinued because she had reached the limit of age. Work-mistresses are not entitled to pension or retiring gratuity.

    Killeentierna Evicted Tenant.
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received an application from an evicted tenant, named John Reidy, of Killeentierna, county Kerry; and, if so, what steps they have taken to secure his reinstatement.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The application has been received, but no opportunity for dealing with it has arisen, as the estate concerned has not yet come before the Commissioners.

    Crime in Ireland—Government Analysis.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state in his analysis of outrages in Ireland, issued on May 30th, why he excluded Dublin from Leinster and Belfast from Ulster, whilst including Galway in Connaught and Cork in Munster; whether, in his analysis of, June 1st, Dublin was excluded from his population figures, whilst Belfast was included; and whether he can state, with reference to the analysis issued on May 30th, what specific offences mentioned in the recent Parliamentary Return were classified by him as serious crimes, and what offences as not serious.
    MR. WALTER LONG: As I stated on June 1st, † the Return does not include the Dublin Metropolitan Police district. The Questions already put to me instituted a comparison between Ulster
    † See page 448.
    958
    and the other provinces; and as the figures for Leinster did not include Dublin, so the figures for Belfast were excluded from Ulster. Otherwise the comparison between the provinces would have been misleading. Cork and Galway are small towns when compared with Dublin and Belfast. The population of Cork is only 7 per cent. of Munster, and that of Galway but 2½ per cent, of Connaught; while Dublin represents 34 per cent, of Leinster, and Belfast 22 per cent. of Ulster. The proportion of crimes to population in Cork and Galway is not much in excess of an ordinary rural district, and consequently the inclusion or exclusion of those towns would not appreciably affect the matter. In my statement of June 1st, the population of Belfast was included because the Question to which I was replying required its inclusion. The population of Dublin was omitted because the crime for Dublin was omitted from the Return. The reply to the concluding inquiry is that all the offences mentioned in the Return are regarded as serious crimes.

    Case of Constable Cryon.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can now say what is the result of the investigation of the Inspector-General, Royal Irish Constabulary, into the charges made against Constable Cryon, Mountmellick, and for which he has been mulcted in damages in the High Courts.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The Inspector-General has deferred his decision in the case of Constable Cryon until the charge of assault against Constable Masterson in connection with the same matter has been heard at the Summer Assizes.

    Threatening Letters in Ulster.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what basis he formed the calculation that, with regard to offences against the public peace, omitting threatening letters and notices, only 23 per cent. of those enumerated in the recent Parliamentary Return occurred in Ulster.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The total number of offences against the public peace in Ireland, omitting threatening letters and notices, is fifty-seven. The similar number for Ulster is thirteen. Thirteen is 22·8 per cent. of 57.
    MR. MACVEAGH: The right hon. Gentleman is wrong. The Question was not about Belfast, but about Ulster.

    Lloyd Apjohn Estate, County Limerick.
    MR. DELANY: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Limerick, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to negotiations for sale and purchase as between the present owners of the Lloyd Apjohn Estate around Pallas Grean, county Limerick, and the tenants; is he aware that papers containing prices and particulars of purchase were filled up some time ago and signed by the tenants, and that subsequently some of the tenants were required to sign second papers at higher figures of purchase; and will he say at what time and by whose orders, and on what grounds these two sets of papers were signed; and how matters in regard to the purchase stand at present.
    MR. WALTER LONG: This matter is in the Land Judge's Court. It is not the case that any tenant has been required to sign a document increasing his purchase money. The tenants in the first place made certain offers, which, however, they subsequently reduced when they found that they were liable for a drainage maintenance charge. The Land Judge declined to accept the reduced offers, but suggested certain changes, to which all parties ultimately agreed. The sale is now practically concluded.

    Colonial Conferences.
    MR. HALDANE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the importance of the Colonial Conferences and the desirability of making better provision for their continuity and efficiency, he will afford an opportunity for discussion of the matter before the close of the session.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): The Government have for a long time past had under consideration methods—to use the words of the Question—for increasing the "continuity and efficiency" of these Colonial Conferences, and have been communicating with the Colonial Governments on the subject. I may, perhaps, be allowed to express my gratification at the interest which the right hon. Gentleman takes in the subject. I have lately been censured for allowing a conference to meet.

    The Government and the Taxation of Food.
    MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, having in view his recent announcement of the Government's policy in relation to colonial preference, whether he can now state the Government's attitude towards the preferential taxation of wheat and flour in the mother country.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have nothing to add to what I have said on this subject.
    MR. BLACK: Is any scheme of colonial preference possible without taxation of corn in this country?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    NEW BILL.
      POOR LAW (SCOTLAND) BILL.
      "To amend the Law relating to the relief of the poor and to parish council administration in Scotland, and for other purposes connected therewith," presented by the Lord-Advocate; supported by Mr. Cochrane; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, June 20th, and to be printed. [Bill 244.]

  MR. SPEAKER'S RETIREMENT.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I rise to move the two Resolutions of which I gave notice at yesterday's sitting. They are

  961
  couched in the traditional form, and they strictly follow ancient precedent. It might be feared that as these occasions occur from time to time ancient forms might lose their substance and that in the thanks we propose to you, Mr. Speaker, and in the recognition that we now intend to make of your great services to the House, we should be doing no more than to carry out in a more or less perfunctory fashion a recognition of duties easily performed. Every man in this House, however, knows that the duties of Mr. Speaker are perhaps the most responsible of any of those exercised within this Chamber, and that the burden of responsibility thrown upon the Chair, so far from diminishing as years go on, is likely, perhaps, if it changes at all, to change in the direction of increase; for there is not a man of us who does not know, either instinctively or after reflection and observation of our proceedings, that, owing to the inevitable changes which changes in the franchise have brought with them, which the ever-growing power of this House carries with it, which the increase of the responsibilities of government and of Empire carry in their train, our proceedings are evitably going through a transitional period which, in my judgment at all events, has not yet come to an end, and that rules and customs of procedure which wore adequate to an easier time and to simpler duties have been found inadequate, and will yet be found inadequate, to deal with the complications of modern responsibilities.
  There was a time when the dangers to this House—dangers to our liberties and privileges, to our position in the country—came from without. They now come from within. I am one of those who take an optimistic view of the future of this House, but I believe there is not a man on either side at present but will agree with me that, however optimistic and however justly optimistic he may be as to our future, it is not always easy, it cannot be easy, to pass through the period of transition of which I have spoken without peril and without difficulty. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is the occupant of your Chair who, more than any other single individual in this House, has thrown upon him the
  962
  heavy burden of dealing with these difficulties as they arise, and when I get up in my place, and when I am followed by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, when we rise and others in different parts of the House rise to express to you our gratitude for the way in which you have dealt with the difficulties of your position, it certainly is not in any formal or routine spirit that we do it, but with the strongest recognition of the difficulties with which you and your predecessors and your successors have inevitably to deal, and of the admirable manner in which you have carried out the duties entrusted to you.
  Mr. Speaker, you have the first of all qualifications for the occupant of the Chair—you love the House of which you are the head; and all those who have had the advantage of conversation with you upon Parliamentary subjects know how profound is the erudition which you possess upon the interesting and instructive but still unwritten history of the House of Commons. These qualities, great as they are, would of themselves be insufficient if you did not add to them that knowledge of the rules, that rapid presence of mind which is able to deal with an unexpected situation in a manner which, if it does not convince every man in the House that the course taken is the best course, does convince every man that it is the course which to you appears the fairest to all Parties, to the minority as to the majority, and to the majority as to the minority, and if you did not exercise your high functions not only with ability, but with that courtesy which commands the affection as well as the respect of all the members of this great Assembly. I do not know that I can add anything to what I have said about the exercise of your high office; but you will forgive me if in taking your departure from among us I venture to make myself the mouthpiece of Members on this side of the House certainly, and I believe on both sides of the House, when I say on their behalf that we not merely admire you as one who has filled a very responsible and difficult office with the greatest distinction, but that we, each one of us in our individual capacity, feel for you

  963
  respect, regard, and, I would venture to add, affection. To each one of us, whatever position he may occupy, who has come to you for advice and assistance with regard to any special difficulty connected with his Parliamentary responsibilities, you have always been a kind friend, a judicious adviser, and in the long and happy career which we hope for you I am confident you will carry away not merely the memory of great responsibilities worthily fulfilled, but also the personal devotion of every one of those over whom you have so long and so admirably presided.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise for the purpose of briefly seconding the Motion which has been submitted by the First Lord of the Treasury. I am sure that in this Assembly on this occasion, there is one single desire, a desire to do honour to one who through ten years, ten active and busy years, has presided with dignity and impartiality over our deliberations, and a desire also to show our grateful recognition and acknowledgment of your steadfast devotion to the interests and the service of the House of Commons. We have learnt with regret from you, Sir, that you have felt the necessity growing upon you, on the ground of health, to seek relief from the burdens of your office. Sir, we can well understand that necessity. As the right hon. Gentleman has said, the work of the House of Commons, and the claims, therefore, which it makes on the Members of the House, increases on our hands year by year, and this growth of business, white it presses heavily on the individual Member, must involve a far more severe strain upon him who is chosen to control and to assist us in the discharge of our high Parliamentary duties. Sir, I remember, and many others will remember, that when you were appointed to the Chair of this House there were many who felt doubt, and a very natural doubt, whether you would be able to discharge its duties on the ground that you had been for a comparatively brief time a Member of the House, and during that time had not taken any very prominent part in our debates and our business. But those who knew you then were confident of your ability to rival, at least, all your distinguished predecessors in the
  964
  Chair, and we are now able to say that we are, one and all of us, your debtors for public services loyally rendered, for advice and counsel freely afforded, for great duties worthily discharged, and for the unfailing courtesy with which every request and appeal addressed to you has been met. We shall always recall with gratitude and pleasure the years we have passed under your presidency, and I join in the hope expressed by the Prime Minister, that in the years that are before you, which we hope will be many, you will have none but proud and happy memories of the Chair of the House of Commons.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the thanks of this House be given to Mr. Speaker for his distinguished services in the Chair for more than ten years; that he be assured that this House fully appreciates the zeal, ability, and impartiality with which he has discharged the duties of his high office through a period of unusual labour, difficulty, and anxiety, and the judgment and firmness with which he has maintained its privileges and dignity; and that this House feels the strongest sense of his unremitting attention to the constantly increasing business of Parliament, and the uniform urbanity and kindness which have earned for him the respect and esteem of this House."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Mr. Speaker, the value of the compliment which is proposed in this Resolution depends to a very large extent upon the unanimity of the House. The Speaker of this Assembly is the guardian of the rights and privileges and liberties not only of the House as a whole, but of every section of the House and of every individual Member of it. Upon his firmness and his fairness may be said to depend entirely the rights and liberties of all minorities, and the smaller the minority the greater is the responsibility thrown on the Chair of safeguarding its rights. When a minority is of a permanent character, and when it openly avows its desire to remain aloof from the rest of the House, and has no share in the admittedly proud history and traditions of this Assembly; when it is here against its will, and is here to voice

  965
  sentiments which are unpopular with the majority of the House, then, I beg leave to say, the responsibility thrown on the Chair is intensified a hundredfold—the responsibility for the protection of the rights and liberties of such a body. I represent here to-day such a minority, and if, speaking in the name of my colleagues and myself, I can support this Resolution, I venture humbly to say that that fact enhances the value of the compliment which is about to be paid to you.
  I can truthfully associate myself with everything that has been said by the two right hon. Gentlemen who have spoken, but there is one reservation which I feel bound to make, even at the risk of seeming to strike a discordant note in the harmony of these proceedings. But allow me first to say that I heartily agree with the statement in this Resolution with reference to the zeal, ability, and impartiality of your action in the Chair. So far as the zeal is concerned, we have all been witnesses of the unremitting and unceasing attention to the duties of the Chair, which, perhaps, to some extent are responsible for your early departure from it. We all recognise that you have brought a distinguished ability to the discharge of the difficult duties of your position, and we have all been witnesses of the dignity with which you have borne your high office; and, Sir, let me say that we all agree that you have manifested on all occasions a desire to act with judgment and impartiality. Those with whom I am associated in this House have more than once during these years been brought into somewhat sharp conflict with the Chair. More than once we have questioned the soundness of the decisions arrived at by you, and upon one memorable occasion we submitted to the House of Commons a Motion formally challenging a decision which you had given. But, Sir, I can truthfully say to-day that we did not think then, and we do not think now, that upon any of those occasions you were ever animated by any but the highest motives, or that you were ever consciously partial in any decision you came to. Therefore it is that I feel at liberty, on behalf of my colleagues and myself, to support this Resolution.
  966
  I spoke a moment or two ago about a reservation. Complimentary and valedictory proceedings like the present would, in my opinion, lose all their flavour, and perhaps, indeed, I may say, all their value, if they were not sincere; and my part in these proceedings would not be sincere—I would feel that I were playing in these proceedings the part of a hypocrite—if I did not claim that in my humble judgment no more fatal precedent was ever set than when policemen were brought into the House for the forcible removal of Members whose only violation of order was the refusal to leave their seats and walk into the division lobby. The circumstances of the moment may have necessitated the creation of a new precedent—I express no opinion upon that—but I say there were many other devices that could have been resorted to; and therefore I feel bound, in supporting this Resolution, in the name of my colleagues and myself to enter that protest and that reservation. Having said that—and it is no pleasant thing for any man to say even so much by way of reservation in reference to one who, so far as I am personally concerned, has shown me the greatest kindness and courtesy, for which I feel grateful—having said so much, allow me in conclusion to say, in the name of my colleagues and myself—we earnestly pray that when, Mr. Speaker, you leave that Chair, you may for many long years enjoy those honours that are about to be bestowed upon you, and which by the admission of everybody have been well earned by long years of zealous and distinguished service to your countrymen.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I desire to add a few words—a very few—to those that have fallen from previous speakers. I desire to associate myself entirely with all that has been said by the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition; and, in regard to what has just fallen from the hon. Member for Waterford, I would only say any allusion to that from any other Member is unnecessary, since the hon. Member has accompanied his statement with a most graceful assurance of the strong feeling which he and his colleagues entertain with regard to the goodness of

  967
  your intentions and of the impartiality with which you have interpreted them. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition referred, I think, with timeliness to the occasion when you were first elected to the Chair of this House, and he reminded us that there were some (amongst whom was myself) who at that time felt that the fact that you were a comparative stranger to most of us might add to the difficulties which are inherent in the great office you hold, in a manner which would be found to be embarrassing. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman referred to the difference of opinion which existed at that time, because it also recalls the occasion only a few weeks later when, a change having taken place in the composition of this House, you were unanimously re-elected. I remember well that the late Sir John Mowbray, then, I think, the father of the House and one of its most honoured and respected Members, was able to say that having been elected by one Party you were now by your conduct in the Chair giving satisfaction to all Parties. Sir, I do not think a greater testimony could have been paid to any man than that, and I am sure that to you it must have been specially gratifying as evidence of the impartiality and the ability with which you had already occupied the Chair. You gained our confidence then. You have never lost it. We have recognised in you many of the characteristics of your greatest predecessor. We have noted your quick appreciation of the innumerable questions submitted to you; we have observed the impartiality with which you have dealt with our business; and, especially, we have noticed, and are grateful for, the urbanity, the courtesy, the accessibility which you have shown to every Member of the House. We all share the regret at the circumstances which have now led you to retire from the office which you have filled with so much dignity; and we all hope that in your comparative leisure you may be entirely restored to full health and vigour, and that you may still find an opportunity of giving a portion of your time and the benefit of your great experience of affairs to the service of your country.
  SIR ALFRED THOMAS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the
  968
  Welsh Members of the House—for I am authorised by my hon. friend the Member for Denbigh Boroughs to include the Welsh Conservative on this occasion—I beg to express our deep regret that you have thought it necessary to sever your connection with the office which you have filled so long and with so much distinction. We can quite understand how onerous and exacting must be the duties of the President of this Assembly when we realise how much they have increased in the case of private Members, and especially when we remember the new obligations and responsibilities that have been thrown upon the Speaker. But while we deeply regret your retirement we are glad to know that it is your own act and deed. It cannot be said of the present Speaker nor of his predecessors that "superfluous lags the veteran on the stage." It is to us a source of pride that the Speakers of the House of Commons cherish such high ideals regarding their office and duties. That was most forcibly brought to my mind on the resignation of Mr. Speaker Peel when I privately intimated to him how greatly I regretted his decision. I His reply was, "When I find myself no longer able to give my best I have no right to continue in office." We were glad to hear yesterday that the reason which prompted your illustrious predecessor was also that on which you acted, and I think I can say for all present, we sincerely trust that your health will soon be re-established and enable you to enjoy the tranquil atmosphere of another place and the society of the lady who so graciously presided over the social functions associated with your high office.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: Speaking in the name of the Irish Members on this side of the House, I have the advantage—some might think it a disadvantage—of having been a Member of this House under four Speakers, and I can say most conscientiously and sincerely that you Sir, by the course you have pursued in that Chair, occupy a position in no degree inferior to any of the others. I am glad that on this occasion the Irish Members on both sides of the House are almost agreed. We still take

  969
  no exception to any part of the Resolution. I am glad of this because, if the House will allow me to say it, I think the Irish Members in this House are especially gifted with the power of understanding what a Speaker ought to be. They have, in my estimation, been endowed, most of them, with the faculty of eliciting and bringing to the surface those great qualities which are necessary in any great Speaker. I may say with all respect in your case that it was not long after yon took your seat it that Chair before the Irish Members on both sides of this House knew that there was a right man in the right place. What are these qualities that the Irish Members on both sides of the House have elicited not only from you, but from your predecessors? These good qualities are, first of all, urbanity in the Chair, kindness towards those who approach you, but above all, readiness and courage. These qualities, I think, have pre-eminently distinguished your course in the Chair. There is one other thing, Sir, I may perhaps allude to. This House of Commons, of which I have been so long a Member, has always struck me as not only a House composed of six or seven hundred Members, divided by Party, by creed, and by other circumstances, but as on occasion acting as one man. And, Sir, it has its likes and its dislikes quite apart from the place in the House where the Members sit. You have essentially acquired the liking of the House of Commons. And, therefore, Sir, speaking for my colleagues—and I am sure on this occasion I speak for my fellow-countrymen opposite—I can only say that we hope that Providence may give you many days to enjoy the honour which I have no doubt His Majesty will confer upon you for the manner in which for so many years you conducted our affairs and maintained the dignity and the honour of the House of Commons.
  MR. BELL: I desire to say a few words and to associate with them my hon. friends who may claim practically to represent the working classes in this House. We claim that distinction, although on occasions we are told we are not representing them. To-day some one has got up and claimed to represent
  970
  each different section of Members here assembled; and as we claim for ourselves to be essentially a section of this House, we desire to associate ourselves with the Resolution now before the House. It is difficult sometimes for every individual Member to see that he is at all times fairly treated. Members on some occasions are unsuccessful in their endeavours to catch the Speaker's eye, but that is not because of any partiality shown on intended in the selection of the Member whom the Speaker calls upon to address the House. We are able to recognise that in a large Assembly such as this it is not possible for every one to speak when he likes; every one knows that when he has not the fortune to catch the Speaker's eye. I can say most cordially that during the five years I have had the honour of being a Member of this House—I believe the majority of the Labour Members entered the House after you began your occupation of the Chair—I can heartily say that in my Parliamentary experience I found no unfairness or prejudice of any kind shown or in any way indicated in connection with the Labour Members. I join in the expressions of good wishes which have come from previous speakers. I trust, Sir, you may long live to enjoy the best of health and the pleasures of retirement.
  Resolved, Nemine Contradicente, That the thanks of this House be given to Mr. Speaker for his distinguished services in the Chair for more than ten years; that he be assured that this House fully appreciates the zeal, ability, and impartiality with which he has discharged the duties of his high office through a period of unusual labour, difficulty, and anxiety, and the judgment and firmness with which he has maintained its privileges and dignity; and that this House feels the strongest sense of his unremitting attention to the constantly increasing business of Parliament, and the uniform urbanity and kindness which have earned for him the respect and esteem of this House.
  Then Mr. Speaker addressed the House as followeth (all the Members being uncovered):—
  "The thanks of the House, expressed in the terms of such a Resolution as this,

  971
  are the highest and most precious honour and reward that can be conferred upon an occupant of this Chair. They cast into the shade every other honour or thanks that could be offered to him. But that honour is doubled when the Resolution has been recommended to the House in language of such generous, and, if I may use the word, such friendly appreciation as has been used by the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have spoken. In saying that, I do not make any distinction between the hon. Member for Waterford and the rest. I regard what he has said as being as cordial and kindly an appreciation of my services to the House, as any words that have been spoken by other right hon. and hon. Members.
  "Of course I am aware that it is impossible for any Speaker to expect that he can at ail times use his judgment in a way that is agreeable to every Member of the House. He must expect that there will be occasions on which they differ at the time and some upon which they will continue to differ from him. Some of those occasions will be important and others unimportant. The hon. Member for Waterford referred to one occasion which was an important occasion, but that was a matter of judgment, and it is not of judgment that we are speaking to-day except in general terms. What gratifies me in the speeches of all the hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Waterford, and the only matter to which I attach importance, is the recognition that my motives have been good and that to the best of my ability I have carried out the principles of justice and impartiality in this Chair.
  "I well remember that when I first stood in the place in which I am standing now, more than ten years ago, I pledged myself to the House that to the best of my abilities I would discharge my duties with diligence, fidelity, and efficiency, without fear or favour and without respect of persons. That is the object I have had before my mind all the time I have been in this Chair. There has never been an hour in which that principle has not been present to my mind. It has been my earnest and constant endeavour to fulfil that promise,
  972
  and I owe the deepest gratitude to the House for the assurance it has given me that I have not altogether failed in my efforts.
  "I cannot trust myself to speak at any length upon this matter. I heartily thank again the House and the right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken to the Motion. I pray that this House may ever continue to enjoy the dignity, the privileges, and the power for usefulness for which it has for so many years been famous."
  Resolved, "That the thanks of this House be given to Mr. Speaker for what he has said this day to the House; and that the same be printed in the Votes of this day, and entered in the Journals of this House."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Resolved, Nemine Contradicente, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying His Majesty that he will be most graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of His royal favour upon the right hon. William Court Gully, Speaker of this House, for his eminent services during the important period in which he has with such distinguished ability and dignity presided in the Chair of this House, and assuring His Majesty that whatever expense His Majesty shall think fit to be incurred upon that account this House will make good the same."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  To be presented by Privy Councillors and Members of His Majesty's Household.

  CHURCHES (SCOTLAND).
  THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): In asking leave to introduce this Bill, I trust the House will grant me the indulgence of allowing me to deal with this matter on the footing that every Member is as familiar with the existing ecclesiastical situation in Scotland as the Scottish Members have, unfortunately, to make themselves. The judgment of the House of Lords in the Scottish Church case had the effect of declaring with regard to the property with which they dealt that the United Free Church had no right to it, but that it belonged to the Free Church, subject, however—and

  973
  I trust this will be Kept in view—to the trusts under which it was held at the time of the union. Following on that judgment, further litigation has ensued, and, as the House is aware, a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into the matters. The Commission reported, amongst other points, to the effect that the Free Church could not adequately execute all the trusts, and that in dealing with the property liberal provision should be made for the equipment of the Free Church.
  We propose in the Bill to proceed on the main lines indicated by the Report of that Commission. In the first place we purpose to set up an Executive Commission consisting of five members. The names I am not yet in a position to mention to the House, but they will be in due course submitted. That Commission is to have power to deal with all the property belonging to the United Free Church at the date of the union in October, 1900. They are to allocate it between the two Churches as seems to them fair and equitable, subject to the provisions of the statute, and in particular they are to make adequate provision for the education of students of the Free Church; for the support of aged and infirm ministers, and the widows and orphans of ministers of that Church, for supplementing congregational contributions towards the support of ministers of the Free Church, and for the general purposes of that Church; and for these objects they are to be entitled to take such part of the property as they think proper. As regards congregational property, they are to allot, that to the Free Church or its congregations in all cases where the members and adherents of the Free Church congregation are in number equivalent to one-third of what in the opinion of the Commissioners the congregations would have amounted to if the union had not taken place. The orders which the Commissioners think necessary for carrying into effect any allocation are to have statutory force, and they may make interim orders, which are to have temporary effect. The proceedings of the Commissioners are not to be reviewed or interfered with by the Courts of Law. All litigation and difference between the Churches as to the
  974
  property in dispute are to be sifted or stayed, and no further such proceedings are to be instituted before the property has been allocated by the Commissioners. The Commissioners are to have power to appoint Assistant Commissioners, and both Commissioners and Assistant Commissioners are to be entitled to examine witnesses on oath. The expenses of the Commission are to be defrayed out of the funds in question.
  That, I think, indicates in the main the general principles upon which we propose that the Commission should deal with the allocation of the property, the powers they are to have, and the freedom from interference by the ordinary Courts of Law. But the question has been raised as to whether conditions should not be imposed on these who are to receive the property under the orders of the Commission, as to the administration of it, and the terms on which it is to be held. This, in the opinion of the Government, raises large issues, which have been further complicated by certain proceedings in the General Assemblies held last month. May I remind the House that the Free Church has, in accordance with the resolution of the General Assembly, represented to the Government their claim of right of 1842–43. The United Free Church has put forward an assertion and protest that she has independent and exclusive jurisdiction and power of legislating in all matters of doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the Church, including therein the right from time to time to alter, change, add to, or modify her constitution, law, subordinate standards, and church formulas; and it is declared that the Church holds her property and funds present and future in conformity with these principles. The Church of Scotland, by unanimous declaration of her General Assembly, has asked for power to relax the formula in connection with the Confession of Faith at present required to be subscribed by her ministers and professors.
  The claims of the Church of Scotland may be explained by saying that she desires to be free from the strict terms of the Act of 1693 as to the subscription of ministers, and the corresponding statute of 1708 as to the subscription

  975
  of professors. The Act of 1693 has always been regarded in many quarters as impinging on the revolution settlement of 1688–90 and especially on the liberties of the Church under the statute of 1690. That statute provided that the Confession of Faith was ratified and established and approved as the public and avowed Confession of the Church, and that statute still remains. The Church desires, however, to have the freedom that she enjoyed under that statute before the Act of 1693 was passed to prescribe the precise terms of the formula of subscription which will be exacted from her ministers and professors. She has that power as to her elders, and she desires to have the same power as to her ministers and professors.
  The Government have given the matters I have referred to their most anxious and careful consideration, and they have come to the opinion that they ought all to be dealt with at the same time. Accordingly by this Bill we propose that the Free Church shall be vested in the property allocated to her free from all the original trusts, and subject only to its being applied to the purposes of the Free Church as I have already indicated. We propose, similarly, that the United Free Church, even after that declaration of her power to alter her subordinate standards and formulæ, should receive the property allocated to her, subject only to this condition that it shall, so far as possible, remain in the hands of the United Free Church, appropriated to the same or similar purposes as it now stands appropriated to. That is to say. Home Mission property will stand appropriated for Home Missions, Foreign Missions, property for Foreign Missions, and so on, but otherwise no conditions shall be attached to the property to be given to the United Free Church. We propose, further, that the Church of Scotland shall be empowered to substitute for the existing formula of subscript on of her ministers and professors such formula as may be prescribed by act of the General Assembly of the said Church with the assent of the majority of the Presbytery thereof. That is to say, that the large representation of laymen which is allowed in our Scottish Presbyterian Church
  976
  Court—that the laymen and clergymen shall be consulted; that the Presbytery by a majority must approve, but subject to the provisions of the Barrier Act the Church of Scotland shall get this relaxation. We believe that in dealing with this matter in this way we are dealing with it fairly and justly. We think that the claims of the Church are sympathised with by many outside her own bounds, and we trust that the proposals I have indicated, and which really, in the main, set out all the proposals of the Bill, will be regarded, as we regard them, as being in every respect generous, as being in all respects just, and as being those which will conduce to the settlement of difficult questions in a manner acceptable to the people of Scotland, to whatever Church they may belong. And believing that, we trust the House will accept the Bill as a settlement of these questions. I beg to move.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the settlement, of certain questions between the Free Church and the United Free Church in Scotland, and to make certain Amendments of the Law with respect to the Church of Scotland."—(The Lord-Advocate.)
  SIR H CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think the Government have taken a wise course in introducing this Bill by the summary procedure which we know as the ten minutes rule, and that not because of the small importance of the Bill, but because of the immense importance of it, and the necessity at the earliest possible moment of placing the provisions of the Bill before the people of Scotland, who have been hungering and thirsting for it for at least a month, and thus enabling a well-informed judgment to be arrived at on the subject before any decision is expressed here. While agreeing with the bringing forward of the Bill in this way, at the same time I think it is well I should say this by way of caveat for the future—that the circumstances of this case are so abnormal, so exceptional, that I hope it will not be taken as a precedent for introducing large and important Bills of this sort in this summary manner.

  977
  Now I proceed to the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman has very properly not recited to the House the circumstances under which this legislation arises. I will say at once that the idea of referring the matter to a Statutory Executive Commission is the right idea. It is the idea which occurred to very many of us early last autumn. I remember myself making a speech in Edinburgh—where people sometimes make speeches—and I then suggested this very course. The Government have proceeded in a tentative manner. They appointed a Commission of Inquiry, exceedingly well conducted by Lord Elgin and his colleagues, and therefore I think they strengthened their hands before proposing this somewhat drastic course. The proposal, therefore, of the Bill for dealing with the case generally will, I hope, be such as shall win our approval. We shall approve anything which shall be simple, complete, and effective, and as immediate as possible in its work and general effect, because it cannot be doubted the longer this matter has been delayed the wider has been the divorce between legality on the one hand and equity, common-sense, and, I would almost say, decency, on the other. I trust, therefore, that the earliest possible time will be that at which this Commission will be put in operation in order to put a stop to a state of things which cannot be called otherwise than scandalous.
  But now I come to what I am afraid is the crux of the position. The Government are proposing to introduce into this simple matter of settling a grave dispute between two Churches, which has been aggravated greatly, of course, by the decision of the highest Court of Law—I do not challenge that decision in the least; what we have to do with is the result of it, but into that simple matter they have introduced the question of altering the constitution of the Church of Scotland which has nothing whatever to do with the question, and as to which I may remark that we have no information whatever as to any claim or desire for this great fundamental change. I think it is a very great mistake that this new and adventitious element should be introduced. I put aside altogether the question whether an alteration of the formula
  978
  of the Church of Scotland may be a good or a bad thing. We have nothing whatever to do with that at this stage. What I say is that there are many most serious objections to introducing these provisions into the Bill.
  My first objection is this. The object is to restore peace, ecclesiastical peace, in Scotland, to prevent injustice, and to remove the ecclesiastical deadlock that prevails. Anything that delays that object is mischievous—and I may point out that hitherto, and I hope in the future also, in a matter which is essentially a matter of common sense, there has been no element of Party feeling whatever; no desire to make Party capital, or to treat it in a Party way at all, but there has been introduced a totally different matter, which, whether it be good or bad, will at all events take a long time to settle. You are not going in a casual way like this to give the Church of Scotland a new constitution in the expiring days of an expiring Parliament when we have no knowledge of the opinion of the people of Scotland or the opinion of the people of the Church of Scotland on it. I am quite aware that only the other day a resolution was passed in the General Assembly, but it had never been heard of until a week or two before, and after it was introduced there were amendments and difficulties raised. Then in a mysterious way an understanding was arrived at and an unanimous resolution was come to. Before you alter the constitution of the Church of Scotland you must have more than a week or two's consideration, and possibly a rushed resolution accepted by an individual General Assembly. It is impossible to expect that you could do it. We ought to know what the people of Scotland think and what the members of the Church of Scotland think.
  The Government are raising here a matter to which it will be difficult to set bounds. This is not a Scotch question only. In its original scope it was a Scotch question, no doubt, and I venture to say that half-a-dozen Members of this House and half-a-dozen people from outside could adopt this Bill and easily make a scheme for an Executive Commision which would answer the purpose, which is at the heart

  979
  of the people of Scotland. But if you once begin tampering with the formulas and the creeds of ecclesiastical bodies where are you to stop, and why should it be confined to the country North of the Tweed? I put it to English Members. What would they think, if some controversy or dispute as to their trust funds arose between unestablished Churches in England, or perhaps between two sections of one of those Churches, and if they became so acute and involved that it was necessary to come to Parliament for legislation in order to stop the evil and solve the difficulty, if the Government, introducing a Bill for that purpose, were to introduce clauses enabling the Church of England to rewrite its constitution? That would be an exactly parallel case. English Members can judge how serious a matter this is, and, to use a very common figure, what a spoke the Government have put into the wheel of conciliation and settlement in Scotland by introducing this absolutely uncalled-for provision relating to the formulas of the Church of Scotland.
  I do not entertain anything but respect and affection for the Church of Scotland, and I am not stating a word against greater liberty for that Church or expressing any opinion on the subject at all, but I say, to put it into this Bill is to put into this ship a cargo that will make it founder, and I do not think any persons who do that are good friends of the prosperous voyage of the ship towards its destined haven, which would be the restoration of ecclesiastical peace in Scotland to the satisfaction of the desires of the Scottish people of all Churches, and the saving of farther injury to the spiritual interests of her people. I have wished to say in as clear and strong and short a method as I could the view that we take. So far as this Bill sets up an Executive Commission—we may pick holes in the Commission, I hope, not, but we cannot say until we have seen the Bill. I have no doubt that the matter could easily be composed, but the introduction of this novel element, this extraneous adventitious element, into this Bill is a fatal course, and I believe it will cause the greatest excitement and indignation throughout that country which has its interests so deeply involved in this matter.
  Question agreed to. Bill ordered to be brought in by The Lord-Advocate and Mr. Attorney-General.

  CHURCHES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To provide for the settlement of certain questions between the Free Church and the United Free Church in Scotland, and to make certain Amendments of the Law with respect to the Church of Scotland," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 20th June, and to be printed. [Bill 245.]

  CHURCHES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Ordered, That the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills do Examine the Churches (Scotland) Bill, with respect to compliance with the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills.—(The Lord-Advocate.)
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANasked when the Bill would be circulated.
  MR. SCOTT DICKSONsaid that the Bill would be circulated to-day or to-morrow. Meantime, some copies could be obtained in the Bill Office.

  ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE (WHITSUNTIDE).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House, at its rising Tomorrow, do adjourn till Tuesday, June 20th."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I pass now to another subject. This appears to me to be the proper opportunity for reviving the inquiries we have been making as to the intentions of the Government with regard to the conference or conferences to which the fiscal question is to be referred. But when I look at the Order-book I find one notice standing in the name of the hon. Member for East St. Pancras to call attention to Ministerial statements on the Colonial Conference, and a second notice in the name of the hon. Member for Preston to call attention

  981
  to the fiscal aspect of the Colonial Conference, and to move a Resolution. I therefore find myself debarred from calling attention to a very singular fact. After what happened ten days or a fortnight ago in this House it appears from speeches made in another place that the Answers given by the First Lord of the Treasury on May 22nd to Questions on this subject have been absolutely put aside, and that the Government fall back on the declarations of the Prime Minister at Edinburgh last year. It is to be regretted, therefore, that this resolution was not arrived at sooner, because a great deal of controversy would have been saved. It was the discrepancy between the two policies which caused me to move the adjournment of the House on the 22nd of last month, and all that has happened since on the subject in this House turns on the same circumstances. I think that it is an odd thing that these Answers of the Prime Minister should be thus practically withdrawn and cancelled without information.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): Will the right hon. Gentleman read the answers?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Oh, I have got them. But if I read them all I am afraid that I will occupy a great deal of time.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have not got the documents here, but the right hon. Gentleman can emphasise the points to which he chiefly takes objection. I think it will be sufficient.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I cannot, because the hon. Members for East St. Pancras and Preston have blocking notices on the Paper and I should be out of order.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I want the Answers alleged to be withdrawn.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The Answers given on May 22nd are totally inconsistent with the statements made before, and these Answers have not been formally withdrawn. They are ignored or dropped without explanation,
  982
  without regret, and without apology. The solemn Answers are given to my hon. friends as to the intention of the Government, and it turns out that the Government have no such intention as was expressed many months ago; and I think that something is owing to my hon. friends and the House, while the incident should not be allowed to slip without observation. But all that is passed, and we cannot go into the question on account of the blocking Motions, nor even into the circumstances of the previous statements. But I note the fact that the incident has occurred.
  Within the last few days we have received new and authoritative declarations of policy which have been promulgated with great form and ceremony. From the Prime Minister's speech at the Albert Hall I do not think it was quite apparent that the policy of the Government was what it is now going to be, because it seemed to me to be rather a simple reaffirmation in substance of the Edinburgh speech. But we are under an obligation, not for the firs time, to the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, who in his kindly way has explained the significance of that speech in the Albert Hall. He said that the Prime Minister's speech set forth a policy so clear that it could not be misunderstood even by me, I do not know whether that is a compliment to my ingenuity or a desire to indicate a faculty of natural stupidity; but in either case the right hon. Gentleman adopts the course of setting up a standard of intelligibility, for if anyone had any doubts on the subject he was to apply to the nearest Liberal Unionist agent. Then the right hon. Gentleman went on to speak of what he calls the official programme, to which he says that he so heartily subscribes. That is the thing we all want to know to-day. The right hon. Gentleman speaks of the flag which the Prime Minister has raised. Which flag does he mean? It is not only the peroration flag, which is the most stimulating of all, except to hon. Members opposite with free-trade leanings. It is more than that. He says that it is "the vast majority of the Party" who are invited to rally to the flag that the Prime Minister has

  983
  raised, "and with a great Party consolidated"—that is accomplished, I suppose, by the proscription of the free-traders—"and a great issue to fight for, we will carry the standard to victory, and that before a very long time has passed." I do not know about the time. It might have come almost already if the returning officer in the Chichester Division had fixed the date of the poll a little later. Such small things sometimes affect great issues, but this official programme, which is so clear, so simple, and so straightforward that even I can understand it is in fact a new "sheet of notepaper." What is it? "What did Mr. Balfour say?" asks the right hon. Member for West Birmingham. "He said last night tariff reform will be the most important part of Unionist policy; he said that colonial preference is the most important part of tariff reform; he said that colonial preference will therefore be the first item in the future Unionist programme." That is a real, unmistakable, straightforward, simple thing, which even I can understand as the policy of the Unionist Party at the general election. Lord Lansdowne, in his speech in the House of Lords, introduced our old friend retaliation, but in a very subsidiary character. Retaliation is like a poor relation; you cannot get rid of him altogether, and ho has been useful in his day, but in the presence of greater things he has to retire to comparative obscurity.
  But now I turn to another thing. The right hon. Gentleman talks of tariff reform. Let us know what is tariff reform. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham has told us what he means by tariff reform. He said it is the system of high tariffs prevailing in the United States and Germany. He declared that in point of employment and comfort and every other respect the working man was better off in Germany and America than here, and said—"When I next come among you let it be mine to say that with your help I have established the same condition of things in this country." So that at last we know where we are. We know the sort of enterprise with which the flag of the consolidated Party is to be carried. By preference is not suggested merely lip homage to the principle of mere con-
  984
  ference but it means that the Unionist Party are mortgaged to the principle of the taxation of food. I think it is only right to take the opportunity of bringing this prominently and clearly before the country. But then it is said the Member for West Birmingham—who is he? said the Lord Chancellor. He is a much-respected private Member, for whose views the Government are not in the least responsible. That is not Lord Lansdowne's view, because Lord Lansdowne said this—
  "The noble Duke referred to the speech delivered by Mr. Chamberlain on Saturday last, and he took exception to that speech as differing from the speech delivered by Mr. Balfour at the Albert Hall. I do not know that I have collated the two speeches with the same close care that the noble Duke has bestowed upon them. But I confess it seemed to me that Mr. Chamberlain had taken almost textually from Mr. Balfour's speech."
  In fact, Lord Lansdowne can see no difference between them. and he made an appeal to the Duke of Devonshire to explain wherein they differed. This conflicts a little with the Lord Chancellor's idea of Mr. Chamberlain as a person worthy, indeed, of respect and admiration, but of no weight in this matter. Can that be held for a moment? The status of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham now is that of a party to a compact, and fresh from that compact he comes forward and makes that statement. It is not a statement of a casual Member of Parliament airing his own views, which the Government can afford to disregard. If such a word were applicable to a Lord Chancellor, I should say it is nonsense to say that he and his colleagues can regard Mr. Chamberlain's words as of no consequence at all. We have the endorsement of the view of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham by Lord Lansdowne in another place. That is, the situation. Do I ask any light upon it? We have asked so often for light that I cease to expect to get any, but I take this opportunity, at all events, to note the position, and to confront the Prime Minister with this assertion of policy made by his chief follower and standard-bearer, and if he is now content to leave the matter as it stands, so am I.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I rather thought that this would be a topic which

  985
  the right hon. Gentleman would have reserved for the vote of censure. I have no objection to rise, though I confess there is not much in the right hon. Gentleman's speech which calls for any very lengthened observations from me in reply. The right hon. Gentleman began by informing the House certainly very much to my astonishment, that I had withdrawn from the policy which I have stated in the course of the cross-examination to which I was subjected on May 22nd. I asked the right hon. Gentleman what particular propositions therein uttered by me I had withdrawn from, and he said they were too long to read, and my respectful suggestion as to what those propositions were he did not give me. I asked an hon. friend of mine to turn up the record of the House, and I have hastily glanced my eye over it, and I am not aware that there are any of those propositions which I have retracted.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: One proposition, for instance, which the right hon. Gentleman stated in answer to a Question was that there would not be, as we had expected there should be, two conferences, with an appeal to the people for authority before each—that the first conference would be the ordinary conference to take place next year, that there would be no general election before that, and he excused himself for having made two conferences a vital part of his policy in Edinburgh, preceded by two elections, by saying that he had forgotten what he called the automatic conference which is to take place next year. Will he reconcile his statements on that point?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think honestly that it would have been well that the right hon. Gentleman should have read out Question and Answer. I do not think it would have been longer than the explanation he has given, and I cannot help thinking that it might have been clearer. I have not the slightest conception of what he means by the policy of two conferences to which he says I pledged myself in Edinburgh. I have not the smallest glimmer of the notion that is in the right hon. Gentle-
  986
  man's mind. This is what I said in Edinburgh—
  "My view, therefore, is that the policy of this Party should be, if we come into power after the next election, to ask the Colonies to join a conferences on these lines—a conference in which the discussions shall be free, but who e conclusion shall not, commit any of the communities concerned to any large plan of imperial union on fiscal or other lines unless their various peoples have given their adhesion to the scheme."
  That is the policy which I stated in Edinburgh, and that is the policy which I repeated on May 22nd, and to which I adhere. Neither is there in the Answer I gave in May, nor in the speech in Edinburgh, the smallest reference to any obligatory policy of two conferences. It is a pure invention of the right hon. Gentleman. I am not going into that—though I am not sure that I should not be justified, as I was attacked by the right hon. Gentleman—but I repeat emphatically that I did not intend, nor do I believe I did, as a matter of fact, in those Answers make any recantation of any previous views I have held. I still think them consistent with the Edinburgh speech; I still think them consistent with the policy which I should desire to lead the country-to pursue.
  The right hon. Gentleman has made a complaint that, owing to two notices standing in the name of hon. friends of mine, he cannot deal at length, and the House cannot deal, with the question of the Colonial Conference. I have two observations to make on that. The first is that we are here dealing with a subject which has been very often dealt with this session, and we are again going to deal with it on the vote of censure; and the second is that I put down on the Notice Paper of the House a modification of our rules which would have entirely removed the restriction placed upon our debates on the Motion for the holidays, and had the right hon. Gentleman's friends permitted that Resolution to go through uncontested neither the right hon. Gentleman nor any other hon. Gentleman would have been precluded by any notice of the Paper from discussing subjects which they desire the House to deal with.
  I pass now to the only other point in the right hon. Gentleman's speech I am

  987
  not sure that I apprehend the gravamen of his contention in this case as clearly as in the earlier part of his speech. He has read out a portion of a speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, but the obvious meaning of the passage would have been made much clearer if the right hon. Gentleman had continued the quotation a little further. But I am not going to deal with that because I dissent absolutely from the principle which appears to be a cardinal one amongst hon. Gentlemen opposite that my right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham is to be judged by my version of his speeches and that I am to be judged by his version of my speeches. [OPPOSITION cheers.] That principle of Parliamentary exegesis, which is quite new in my experience, I observe is loudly cheered by hon. Gentlemen opposite. [OPPOSITION cries of "jeered, "not" cheered.] I do not know whether they desire the same rule to be applied to themselves. I will not invidiously go into names, but I may say that in my opinion those who want to know the views I hold had better get them from my speeches, and not from other people's speeches. [An HON. MEMBER: Tell your own Party to do the same.] They had better get my views from my speeches than from the comments of the Press and the criticisms of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Each man must be judged upon what he says and by what he does, and though I am painfully conscious that I have on various occasions not succeeded in hammering my ideas into the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite—doubtless from my own deficiency and power of lucid exposition—and I have not been uniformly successful in making them understand what seem to me simple elementary propositions, at all events I ask for the common liberty of all mankind which is by their own acts and only by their own words, and by their own acts and words, should they be judged. Having said that, may I add that I shall not accept for my own part as a humble and independent critic the meaning which the right hon. Gentleman has decided to read into the speech of my right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham.[An HON. MEMBER: He read the words.] I am not going to
  988
  set myself up as the interpreter of anybody's speeches but my own, but I think I may be allowed to express the opinion that the quotation read by the right hon. Gentleman does not give a fair view of the meaning which I, at all events, gathered from the speech of my right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham. [An HON. MEMBER: Throw him over frankly.]
  MR. CHURCHILL: In what respect does he differ?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I believe my right hon. friend was perfectly acquainted with the views that I hold and which I expressed not for the first time in the Albert Hall. Hon. Gentlemen opposite talk as if it was in the Albert Hall that I for the first time said that this question of fiscal reform stood in the forefront of our constructive policy. It must be quite obvious that this is so, and I have said so on all occasions. It is equally obvious, and I have equally said so, that of all the branches of fiscal reform that which was connected with the problem of drawing closer the commercial bonds between us and our Colonies was the most important part of our policy I further said, and again not for the first time, that in my opinion the only way to farther that object was by a free conference into which the various members might enter unfettered and unhampered, and the appeal I made, and which I make again, if it gains force by repetition, to the Party to which I belong was to leave in suspension their judgment upon any scheme that such a conference might hammer out until the scheme was before them. That is my view, and that is the view I expressed at the Albert Hall. That is the view I express now, and that view is consistent, so far as I know, with everything that I have ever said. I lay no claim to verbal infallibility. I have been subjected, with and without notice, to innumerable Questions upon this point, and I have made in reference to it in the country and in this House innumerable speeches during the last two or three years, and certainly I am the last man to say that the anxious explorer into those utterances may not find something which, by ingenuity of interpretation, may be twisted in some

  989
  sense which is not wholly in conformity with what I have said.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon): What about St. Helens?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not remember making any such statement, and in such references as I have since had to make in my innumerable contributions to this controversy I have not come across any unguarded phrases which might have given a wrong view to those who made the smallest attempt at a clear and accurate estimate of what the policy is which I placed before the country. Certainly the right hon. Gentleman quoted nothing the other night and nothing this evening to controvert that statement, and if I have risen on this occasion immediately after him, it is because I understand that by the canons of debate which hon. Gentlemen opposite desire to see carried out the whole case against any Minister attacked is contained in the first speech. Therefore, I may assume, and do assume, that no hon. Gentleman opposite has anything to add to the speech to which we have just listened. At all events, my views, I believe, were expressed with great clearness at the Albert Hall. Have they been expresed with insufficient clearness on the present occasion? They have not. Well, those are the views by which I stand.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: Are you in favour of the taxation of food?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have just explained to the House that in my view the only way of settling this question of closer commercial relations with our Colonies is to see what can be done by a free conference and to wait until it has given its judgment. And yet the right hon. Gentleman asks me a Question as to the solution to be arrived at. I should be plainly contradicting every statement of policy which I have made to the House if I were to endeavour to deal with that Question. I do not know whether there is any other Question the right hon. Gentleman ha sasked me; at any rate I do not recall one to which an Answer is required. I trust that in the few words I have addressed to the
  990
  House I have—I will not say made plainer, because it was quite plain before—made clear a position which was never obscure and which certainly the right hon. Gentleman has not done anything in his attack to call into question. I do not think that my speech requires defence, and at any rate I am not attempting a defence this evening. I do not think it requires any apology. As to the meaning of those speeches I think they are absolutely clear. I believe I was successful in making my meaning obvious when I uttered those speeches, and if any doubt prevailed after those speeches were made that doubt must now be at an and.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid the Prime Minister declined to be bound by anyone's interpretation of his speeches, and he asked the House to take that interpretation from himself. But the Leader of the House in another place, speaking in the name of the Prime Minister and setting forth his policy as the policy of the Government at the next election, surely was as authoritative upon that subject as the Prime Minister himself.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: You have misunderstood Lord Lansdowne. That is not what he said.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he would state the understanding most of them had of what Lord Lansdowne said. Lord Lansdowne said that the policy of the Government at the dissolution—having regard to what the Prime Minister said to-day, that colonial preference was the first matter in importance—would be in two branches. He said the first of these two branches would be retaliation, and the second would be the calling together of a free Colonial Conference. He was asked whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham had not stated the policy which was agreed upon as the policy for the dissolution in the same words with a difference in the second branch; and whether the second branch as stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham was that the Prime Minister was in favour of colonial preference instead of merely in

  991
  favour of calling a conference on the subject. Lord Lansdowne's reply was that he could see no difference.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Lord Lansdowne repeated what has been reiterated over and over again, that closer commercial union with the Colonies was the great object of our policy.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that was so. But the question which must surely be resolved in one sense or the other before the dissolution was whether the Government were going to call a conference and whether that conference was to be free? The right hon. Gentleman had pledged himself distinctly to the House, had pledged everybody, including the Member for West Birmingham, who assented in the debate on the adjournment for the Whitsuntide holidays two years ago—a pledge which the right hon. Gentleman had constantly repeated since—that there should be no proposal for taxation of raw material. Had there been any change upon that point? They were hampered in regard to many subjects by "blocking" Motions, but surely they were at liberty to discuss the policy of the Government, which they had been explaining to the other House though not to the House of Commons. Surely they might ask that Question with regard to raw material, which was the subject of a distinct pledge, constantly repeated, by the Prime Minister, and a pledge quite different from that about food, became the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham concurred in it. The Leader of the House, in the debate two years ago, said that no person had suggested a tax on raw material, and the Member for West Birmingham approved that statement. They could not discuss this question until they knew whether that was a reserved matter or not. Did the Government depart from the pledge they had constantly repeated in the country upon the taxation of raw material
  The Prime Minister had only himself to thank for the confusions which had arisen in the House and in the country, The "automatic" conference was dead; Lord Lansdowne's speech had killed it. Every one knew that the Colonies would
  992
  not come to it, would not look at it, and all that House had now to consider was the new departure which was made by the speeches in another place a few days ago—speeches not in a mere academic debate, but laying down, for the first time, in sharp and concrete form, the questions upon which the Government were going to appeal to the country and to the whole Empire at the next election. And here was the House of Commons beginning to be doubtful about any pledges which had been made on this subject! The language used about the taxation of raw material by the Prime Minister on two occasions was as strong as any language could be, and, if there was a rag of consistency about the Government policy, those pledges would be maintained. And yet they now heard this constant repetition of a "free" conference! They were to go into this "free" and "unhampered" conference without the Government daring to tell the House and the country what they meant by "irce" and "unhampered," or whether they meant to adhere to their pledges against the taxation of raw material.
  The Prime Minister complained that this subject should be raised to-day instead of on the vote of censure promised. But that vote of censure was already out of date. They must have a different vote of censure. [MINISTERIAL laughter.] Yes, because the situation was entirely changed by the interpretation of the speech of the Prime Minister given by the Member for West Birmingham and by the explanation of Lord Lansdowne of the apparent contradiction. The statement made by Lord Lansdowne as to the policy which was to be the policy of the dissolution was, he supposed, a final statement, and, if they were to believe that the policy of the Government and the question on which dissolution was to take place was thus clearly expressed, there could be no subject on which the House of Commons was more driven to insist on knowing the views of the Government than the question which had been raised that day. It was not raised by the vote of censure, and if another vote of censure on the changed circumstances were put down, it would have to be put down in different terms.

  993
  [MINISTERIAL laughter] The Prime Minister laughed, but it was not the change of the Opposition. It was the change of the statement of the Government views—a change which, he feared, might go further even than the revelations Which had yet taken place, because of the conspicuous desire of the Prime Minister to avoid answering any Question on the subject of the taxation of raw material.
  The position of the Member for Birmingham had been discussed that day. It was a position they all reverenced, because he was the master of the Government. In Japan there was a constitutional system, but behind the Cabinet there was the Marquess Ito and the Council of the Elder Statesmen, and the Cabinet were puppets in their hands. That Council decided what the Cabinet were to do. Tue Member for Birmingham evidently exercised on the constituencies so powerful a hold that the Government were obliged to adopt his version of their speeches. And, although the Prime Minister had shown a certain, he would not say petulance, but a certain impatience at having the Member for Birmingham's version of his speech put forward as against his own, yet the speech of Lord Lansdowne showed that it was the Member for Birmingham who had triumphed. He would ask the Government two Questions. The first was, "Do the Government adhere to their pledges with regard to the reservation of raw material, forbidding any touching of the question of the taxation of raw material?" The second was, "Are they in favour of colonial preference, or are they, as the Member for West Birmingham says, in favour of calling a conference on colonial preference?" Until the Government had answered such Questions as these, they must expect vote of censure after vote of censure, but with the changes which they were executing they could not hope that those votes of censure would always remain in the same terms. The fiscal question over-rode all others, and if it wrecked the programme of the Government they had only themselves to blame for the manner in which they were treating that question, which by their own admission was of the most first-class
  994
  importance. This question intruded itself into everything. He saw the other day a newspaper report of the proceedings at an international conference which stated—he was not sure whether the statement was a joke or a mistake—that the principal delegate representing the Government of this country refused to agree to certain resolutions on the ground that it would be playing into the hands of the fiscal reformers in this country. Although there were blocking Motions on the Paper he did not think they should be prevented from discussing the position of India in relation to this question as raised in the statesmanlike speech of Lord Curzon.
  MR. ELLIOTsaid the Prime Minister had treated the question that evening in a manner which was hardly worthy of its importance. He was one of those who honestly wanted to arrive at the mind of His Majesty's Government. He wished to know, as a Unionist and a free-trader, what was the fiscal policy, if they had a policy, of the Government. He did not want to know what interpretation this or that right hon. Gentleman put upon the speeches of the Prime Minister at Edinburgh, or Manchester, or Sheffield, because the Prime Minister was now present himself. It was not necessary for them to run one series of interpretations against another series of interpretations. What the House wanted to know was his policy from his own mouth. He was present the other day in the House of Lords, and heard it stated on high legal authority that what they wanted to know was not only what Ministers said, but what they thought. The House of Commons was the place in the past where Ministers considered it their duty to say what they thought upon a question in which the public interest was deeply concerned. He said not one word about the conference, because he entirely agreed with the right hon. Baronet who had just spoken that the question of holding a conference before the dissolution was now practically a thing of the past in consequence of the speech of Lord Lansdowne in another place. The question he wished to deal with was not the question of the Colonial Conference. All of them looked to the holding of a Colonial Conference and liked the idea of

  995
  the representatives of the Colonies meeting periodically together with representatives of this country. That was not the question of the moment, of the day, or the hour.
  The question was what the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government and his colleagues meant to do as regarded the tariff policy which was now put before the country on their behalf by no less a man than the right hon. Member for West Birmingham. It was said that Ministers could speak for themselves, and that the remarks of other people on their speeches were not binding upon them. But he had yet to learn that in politics, or in any other department of life, it was correct for a man to allow himself to be misinterpreted. Surely, if he were misinterpreted it was impossible for a man to stand by in silence when that misinterpretation was made, and when the question was afterwards raised to refuse to tell the House, "Yes," or "No," whether the interpretation put on his remarks was correct or not. It was for the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to say what their policy was. He thought that in this respect he spoke for a considerable number of Unionist free-traders in the country when he said that they would be deeply disappointed if this opportunity were allowed to pass without the right hon. Gentleman severing the Government from the policy which had been announced as theirs by the right, hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham. Of course, he knew that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham was not a Minister of State. He knew nothing of the contract between the two right hon. Gentlemen; but he contended that the Prime Minister's intentions would necessarily be interpreted throughout the country by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, unless the right hon. Gentleman dissevered himself from the policy of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham. The Prime Minister would be necessarily associated with that policy unless he came forward and said that that policy was not his. The right hon. the Member for West Birmingham said at St. Helens—
  "Mr. Balfour said last night that tariff reform will be the most important part of Unionist
  996
  policy; Mr. Balfour said that colonial preference is the most important part of tariff reform; Mr. Balfour said that colonial preference will, therefore, be the first item in the future Unionist programme."
  Was the Prime Minister going to the country on that programme, or was he not? He admired the frankness with which the right hon. Member for West Birmingham put his whole case be ore the country, and he had never concealed his view that colonial preference rested on the taxation of food. Therefore, if colonial preference was the first item in the Party programme, it brought the question of the taxation of food directly before the electorate. Did his right hon. friend mean this? If he did not, why should he not say that he did not mean it?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Well, I choose to be cross examined on my own speech, and not on other people's.
  MR. ELLIOTsaid that was merely fair. He thought the right hon. Gentleman had a right to say that he should not be judged by what other people said of him or his speeches. But there was a corollary to that. Why would not the right hon. Gentleman follow that remark up by telling them them what he thought himself and what he meant? There was something almost unreal in these debates. He did not want any interpretation of the right hon. Gentleman's speeches at Edinburgh, Manchester, or the Albert Hall, he wished for no more comment, he wanted an original speech from the right hon. Gentleman now. Surely they had a right to know the minds of their Ministers, for this ambiguity and doubt was distressing. The right hon. Member for Birmingham told them clearly enough that what he wanted was a duty on corn, and other duties, high tariffs, and protection.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No. I am afraid I must be as ambiguous as the hon. Gentleman says the Prime Minister is. Most certainly I have never gone in for a high tariff; I absolutely repudiate what the hon. Gentleman says.
  MR. ELLIOTsaid he was glad the right hon. Gentleman when he thought

  997
  he was misinterpreted got up and told them what he did think. The right hon. Gentleman none the less seemed to have based a good deal of his arguments on high tariffs, otherwise he could not, in repeated allusions, have attached so much weight to the fiscal policy of Germany, the United States, and other protective countries which had systems of high tariffs, A dissolution was coming soon, [MINISTERIAL cries of "No, no!" and "Oh!"] Whether it came sooner or later there should be a clear issue on the fiscal question. They should know where statesmen stood, and on what grounds they were supporting them. If the policy of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham was to be the policy of a great Party it would be a now Party; it ceased to be the old Conservative or the old Unionist Party; it became the Protectionist Party of the future. Hundreds of thousands of Unionists throughout the country would fight against a Party which hoisted the flag of protection. They knew from facts and figures that such a policy was contrary to the interests of the country, and its advocates had failed to convince the country that it would bring wealth and prosperity to the United Kingdom or consolidation to the Empire.
  MR. ROBSONsaid that what they were concerned with was not so much any interpretations of the ambiguous phrases in the Prime Minister's speeches, but as to what were the actual intentions of the right hon. Gentleman, and on those intentions the right hon. Member for West Birmingham was an authority second only to the Prime Minister himself. That right hon. Gentleman told the executive of the Tariff Reform League more than a year ago that they could be assured of the Prime Minister's sympathy with their objects, and they must suppose that he did so with the express authority of the Prime Minister. The country was entitled to know from each right hon. Gentleman whether either of them intended to mislead the country. He himself had no doubt as to the view of the Prime Minister. That right hon. Gentleman was a protectionist, and a food protectionist like any other, but he had given that afternoon most remarkable reasons for reticence in this matter. In reply to the
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  right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, the right hon. Gentleman said that he had already explained that that question was involved in the question of colonial preference which was to be submitted to the Colonial Conference, and that it could not be dealt with until the conclusions of the Colonial Conference were known. It therefore came to this, that we, the mother country, were not to know whether the Government was in favour of a tax upon food until a Colonial Conference had discussed the subject and arrived at a conclusion with regard to it. He remembered how a great colony was lost to us because we tried to tax the people without their consent. Now the Colonies were to be invited to tax the mother country. Let them take care that they did not lose the mother country as we lost the United States of America. The right hon. Gentleman did credit neither to himself nor his Ministry in putting forward so flimsy and ridiculous a plea for concealing his views upon what was at the present time a vital matter. The right hon. Gentleman told the House that that necessitated the conference being free. The only muzzled Member of the conference apparently was to be England. The representative of England was to hold his tongue and was not to be allowed to speak a word. When the colonial delegates had put their views before the conference there was to be a general election. When we had heard their views and heard their proposals and their offer we were to have a general election to say whether the Colonial Conference was to tax our food or not. In his view the Prime Minister that afternoon had trifled with the subject, and in so doing had played an uncandid and unworthy part.
  SIR FREDERICK MILNERsaid it appeared to him, after reading the speeches made recently by the Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham on the subject (and it was laid down most clearly in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham at St. Helen's). that this question could not be placed before the country until we had had a conference of the whole Empire. Until that time everybody should keep an open mind

  999
  upon the question. The programme before the country was that there should be a conference of the whole Empire and until that took place and we knew what the Colonies were prepared to offer us, and how far we could meet them, the question could not be before the country. Hon. Members opposite appeared to have fiscal reform on the brain to such an extent as to be unable to understand plain English or to take an intelligent view of anybody's opinions—except their own. No more plain English could be spoken than that spoken by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham at St. Helen's. It was absolutely clear that the conference could not be called until after the next general election. He believed that with few exceptions the Unionist Party was absolutely united in believing that there should be some change of retaliation or otherwise in our fiscal policy. Most of them believed that the terrible destitution and suffering which was daily increasing in this country, at all seasons of the year, was largely caused by the withdrawal of manufactures, and by the opening of mills in foreign countries, taking away the work from our own people. Whether they were right or wrong it was a question which any patriotic man should have thought worthy of consideration with an open mind and fair spirit.
  At St. Helen's the other day the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham made perfectly clear what his own opinion was, and he also made it perfectly clear that he would heartily unite in supporting the Ministerial policy of the Prime Minister. That was a policy in which the whole of the Unionist Party might combine with satisfaction. Speaking for himself, he admitted that in times past he had been confused between the two policies but, after reading the speeches last week, he was absolutely satisfied that these two right hon. Gentlemen were working together on the same lines—viz., that this question should be referred to the conference and that there should be absolutely free discussion on the whole subject. For his part he should keep an absolutely open mind until he knew what policy was before the country. They could not
  1000
  know what policy was before the country until the conference had taken place and they knew what the conditions were. He should, therefore, give his most hearty support to the Leader of the House, as he considered his policy and that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham were practically and absolutely the same, and one that could be honestly supported by every member of the Unionist Party.
  MR. CHURCHILLsaid he agreed with the hon. Member when he said that it was quite clear that there would be no Colonial Conference until after a general election. After reading with great attention the speech made by Lord Lansdowne in another place the conclusion was forced upon him that Lord Lansdowne made it clear that His Majesty's Government were unable to resist the arguments, some of them physical arguments, against the summoning of a conference until this country had decided upon the general principle of I preference. He hoped the Colonial Secretary, to whom they were all glad to listen when he spoke on matters that came properly within his own sphere, would be able to tell them that the Government did not contemplate, as a matter of definite and practical politics, that there would be any sort of conference before a general election had taken place. Nothing could be more dangerous and more fatal than that while on the one hand, by an arbitrary and improper use of the Septennial Act, the people of this country were prohibited from expressing their opinion on such a vital matter as the taxation of food, a number of well-meaning gentlemen should be brought together from all parts of the Empire to consider detailed methods by which Imperial preference involving the taxation of food might be carried out. No Prime Minister who came with such a policy as that could possibly hope for the support of the House or the country. He confessed that he thought the debate would have served a useful purpose if it only gave to the Secretary of State for the Colonies the opportunity to once for all sweep away the dark, dangerous, and dishonouring suggestion that a Colonial Conference was to be held before the general election. The holding

  1001
  of such conference could not fail to make Colonies a mere plank in the platform of one political Party. Anything more disastrous it was impossible to conceive and he did not believe that even in the desperate straits to which some politicians appeared to be reduced they would allow their desire for political mastery to lead them into a course of action so disastrous to the interests of the Empire to which they were so strongly attached.
  He had thought it very odd that the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister should have said in the course of the conversation which took place recently that he had forgotten that there was such a thing as an automatic Colonial Conference. There could be hardly any limit to the want of knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman when it was convenient for him not to know any particular subject. The right hon. Gentleman, when speaking on the question of Imperial preference, did not know that there was such a thing as an automatic Colonial Conference. He should have thought there was no other man in this country, who paid the slightest attention to politics, so ignorant. But the oddest statement of all that he had heard the right hon. Gentleman make had been the statement that in the whole of these debates on the fiscal question his speeches had been absolutely consistent from beginning to end. It was curious, if the right hon. Gentleman's claim was a just one, that he should have been unable to make his meaning clear to either friend or foe. That was the statement put forward by those who earnestly desired to support him as well as those who did not. During the progress of this tedious controversy the House had seen the right hon. Gentleman supported by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, two Gentleman whom they knew to be sharply divided on this great question, the first question of the day. Both those right hon. Gentlemen at different times had appeared to be entirely satisfied with the utterances of the Prime Minister, and the question
  1002
  which occurred immediately to one's mind was which of those two gentlemen was to be the dupe? Which of them when the whole of this matter had passed into history, would regret the confidence he had placed in the words of the First Minister of the Crown. For one or the other, and possibly both, would have cause to regret the confidence they placed in the right hon. Gentleman.
  Very often in the debates which took place in this Assembly it was the object of the Opposition to prove that there was a division of opinion in His Majestry's Government, but no such object animated those who sat n the Opposition Benches with regard to the fiscal controversy. Their object was not now to prove that there was any division between the Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, but to prove that they were united, and, above all, to make it clear that it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham who was the leader of the Unionist Party, and that his was the programme which would be the official programme at the next general election, The Member for West Birmingham the other day made a speech in which he claimed that the Prime Minister's policy and his policy were the same, and that he was entirely satisfied with the programme put forward by the Prime Minister. That was not remarkable. The right hon. Gentleman was too good a tactician to let it appear that he was at variance with the official governing heads of his own Party. But the significance of the right hon. Gentleman's speech in Lancashire had been greatly increased by the statement of Lord Lansdowne in the House of Lords, that he agreed with the interpretation placed on the speech of the Prime Minister by the Member of Birmingham. That circumstance must be felt to involve increasing menace to those still sitting on the Ministerial side of the House who adhered unflinchingly to free-trade views.
  Events had gone a long way towards showing that the reasons which had already induced some hon. Members to separate themselves altogether from the Party opposite and to take the course of moving over to the other side of the

  1003
  House, a course accompanied by every odious circumstance of abuse, were not light or passing reasons, and that the influences which two years ago threatened to convert the Conservative Party to protection were still dominant on that side. It was somewhat pathetic to see the way in which members of the Unionist Free-Food League had looked for guarantees in the speeches delivered by the Prime Minister, and who had pinned their faith to them who had said. "Surely these are guarantees there is no getting out of. It in quite impossible to modify them." They had always regarded those statements as statements extracted from the Prime Minister owing to the difficulties in which he found himself and to prevent the disruption of his Party. Lately, however, the right hon. Gentleman had declared that he did not feel himself bound by the promises of the Edinburgh speech—that his pledge wag not a pledge given to his opponents. They had bean accustomed to regard the utterances of the Prime Minister as being in the nature of solemn assurances to the country as a whole. But the right hon. Gentleman went even further, and claimed that it was open to him to say at any time that he had changed his mind. The right hon. Gentleman did not say, "It is open to me at any time to change my mind," but "It is open to me at any time to say that I have changed my mind,"—to produce this when it was needed and that when a change was required. ["Oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen opposite must be their own judges of the faith they should put in their leader, but he would ask those who had fought for free trade in a manner which was recognised by the Liberal Party—he did not suppose that hon. Gentlemen opposite would object to regard free trade as an asset of the Liberal Party—he would appeal to those hon. Gentlemen to consider whether the time had not come when they should come forward more decisively than they had done and take measures with the strongest organised free-trade forces of the country, to make the sacrifices they had hitherto made effective and lasting for the future.
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid that this was one of a long series of dis-
  1004
  cussions which began, so far as that House was concerned, exactly two years ago upon the same Parliamentary occasion. All the debates that had taken place had borne a family resemblance, and he knew that members of the Government believed that in circumstances of great difficulty they had taken the best course open to them in giving only care ullv-weighed and judiciously-guarded Answers to the Questions that had been put to them. Bur he had never concealed his opinion, that in pursuing that scheme of tactics they made a profound mistake. He did not say a mistake in his interest, or the interest of free trade, or any interest which did not appeal to them as much us to himself, but a mistake in their own interests and in the interest of the great Party they led, and even in the interest of his right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham, because he, like every member of the Party suffered under the impatience with which the country regarded utterances which, whether they ought to be understood and were intelligible or not, were nevertheless not understood, and were interpreted sometimes in one sense and sometimes in another by different sections of opinion. But since the Government believed it wise to follow these tactics he did not wish on the present occasion—it would not be congenial—to censure their judgment on what was after all, primarily their own business. He would only say how he understood, and he believed he understood it quite correctly, the position which the Government had taken up.
  He understood, first of all, that their desire was to resume what was called the power of commercial negotiation, enforced, if necessary, by retaliatory duties. His criticism on that was well known—namely, that they had the power already. Beyond that he did not want to go at the present moment. But with respect to the colonial side of the problem he understood that the Government agreed with every one else, that while they would not actually promise that there would not be any conference during the present Parliament, it would be practically very inconvenient to have a conference on the eve of a general election—that was the language used in another place—and that, therefore, it was exceedingly unlikely, unless,

  1005
  perhaps, in response to a demand from the Colonies themselves, that there would be a meeting of any conference before the general election. But the Government proposed, supposing they were returned to office, to assemble a conference which should be uncommitting and uncommitted, which should be able to discuss anything of colonial interest, and the conclusions of which should not bind any of the parties to it, unless they chose voluntarily to undertake the necessary obligations.
  A criticism was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Forest of Dean relating to the supposed exclusion from deliberation of the taxation of raw material and the more doubtful exclusion of the taxation of food. As he understood the matter, neither one nor the other was excluded from deliberation. It would be open to the conference to discuss anything—duties on food, duties on raw material, mutual co-operation, or anything else; but when the conference had concluded its labours it would be perfectly open to any one who supported the conference or to the home Government which convoked the conference to say, "We are unable to recommend this proposal to the people of this country for adoption." That was how he understood the proposal for a Colonial Conference. But undoubtedly his right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham had, whether inadvertently or not, brought in an element of confusion where none such need have existed by speaking of the programme the Government wore to put before the country as including as its first article colonial preference. But a Colonial Conference which was to discuss colonial preference among a great many other things, but which was not to commit any person who supported or took part in it to the adoption of preference, could not be described as a programme including as its first article colonial preference. It was a wholly different proposal. He heard his right hon. friend say he did not see it. The difficulty of understanding was spreading.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: It is my noble friend I do not understand.
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid his right hon. friend knew what he meant if he did not agree with his interpretation of what the Government meant. At any rate, that was how he understood the Government, and so he and a great many more important people had always supported the policy of a Colonial Conference, because it would be very ungracious to reject such a proposal if it were made. It would, in fact, show distrust of the Colonies, and an indisposition to discuss any questions with them.
  Without attempting to press the Government unduly, it was necessary for those who supported that proposal to state clearly why they supported it. They supported it without the smallest intention of modifying their opposition to the proposal for the preferential taxation of food. He had never been able to understand why any distinction should be drawn between the taxation of raw material and the taxation of food. It was perfectly true that a small taxation of either would produce only a small effect, but he could not for a moment admit that the effects of the taxation of food were either better or less dangerous than the effects of the taxation of raw material. He would like to ask one Question. He did not think the Government always appreciated why hon. Members asked Questions. It was not to elucidate their own minds. If they wanted to do that they could go and see members of the Government in private when they would be able to discuss matters at length and probably would much better get to the bottom of whatever might be their purpose. The object of asking Questions was that a great many people on whom they depended might understand the meaning of the Government. It was essential, or, at any rate important, for hon. Members, if they were to secure the confidence of Unionist electors, supposing they could do it consistently with principle, to say whether they supported the Prime Minister's fiscal policy, and if so, how far, and to introduce any limitation which conscience might require. They wished to go as for as consistency with principle would allow in support of that policy, but they were firmly opposed to any policy of colonial preference founded on the taxation of

  1007
  food. Therefore when they were told on authority which, he agreed, did not pledge the Government in the least, but which did carry great weight with the electors, that colonial preference was the first article in the Government programme, they could not escape from the foreboding that that would occasion them difficulty. He was afraid he was uncharitable enough to suspect that that observation was made with that precise purpose.
  His right hon. friend had said that he did not wish to be cross-examined on other people's speeches. He did not want to cross-examine anyone offensively, but he did want to ask his right hon. friend a Question which there could be little difficulty in answering, viz., whether he adhered to the Sheffield declaration, upon which numbers of by-elections had been fought, which most of his hon. friends above the gangway had adopted, and which involved no more than this, that the Government were pledged not to propose taxation of food as part of their immediate programme, and therefore, and this was more important, not to propose it during the course of the next Parliament. ["No, no!"] Yes, this Parliament and the next. He was not suggesting that it was a pledge for ever and ever against the taxation of food. When attention had been directed to the double election pledge, he had always thought the people missed the very evident fact that the double election pledge arose necessarily out of the other pledge. It was no new thing. From the moment the Sheffie'd speech was delivered the Government were pledged not to propose the taxation of food in the next Parliament, and therefore if the conference adopted it they were bound to have a second election in order to keep the Sheffield pledge. That was the point that was of importance to hon. Members. Otherwise how could they go to their constituents and say, "We are perfectly consistent, first, in supporting a free and unfettered conference, and secondly, in opposing the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham for the preferential taxation of food"?
  He wanted to make only one other observation. A part of his right hon. friend's Birmingham speech which seemed to him important was the invita-
  1008
  tion to these Members who did not agree with the policy as he defined it to leave the Party. He noticed that that invitation was echoed by hon. Members opposite. On both sides, it seemed, there was a desire that the Unionist free-traders should change their political adhesion. He confessed to being a little amused. The Liberal Party were anxious that they should depart from their contaminated surroundings, but they were not prepared to take any steps to secure their continuance in Parliament when the rupture took place. Those who were responsible for the elections said, "Well, Liberalism must be considered as well as free trade"; but he thought it was a little unreasonable that they should not also consider Conservatism as well as free trade. But, in fact, Unionist free-traders were not at present, and he hoped they never would be, driven to any such, tremendous choice as an alternative between Conservatism and free trade. They hoped to combine the two, and they hoped it all the more because of the evident anxiety of his right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham to get rid of them. The right hon. Gentleman wanted, of course, the Conservative Party to be the instrument of his policy. Did he not wish he might get it? Did he suppose that they were not quite as well aware as he was of the great advantage in resisting his policy that membership of the Unionist Party gave them? They were perfectly aware of it. They proposed to remain in the Party, and they proposed to continue their opposition to his right hon. friend until not one bit of his jerry-built structure remained standing. His right hon. friend might be entitled to advise them as to who ought or ought not to be members of the Unionist Party, but certainly not as to who should be members of the Conservative Party.
  It might seem surprising, but he began active political work on behalf of the Conservative Party before his right hon. friend was a member of it. The occasion was really an interesting one, because the very first active political work he undertook was to assist in the composition, which was very easy, of a certain political poster. At the time of the general election of 1885, or that which preceded it, it had been said by

  1009
  certain members of the Radical Party—he was not sure whether by his right friend himself—that the Conservative Party proposed to tax the food of the people. That was one part of the Radical stock-in-trade at the time, and it was vehemently resented as a calumny by the leaders of the Conservative Party, and the late Lord Iddesleigh, then a distinguished leader of the Party, made a speech in which he described it—quoting an anecdote—as "a downright thumping lie." That was so good a theme for a poster that it was felt a poster should be made, and he was the editor who constructed it. His right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham had changed his opinion, but he, although a much younger man than his right hon. friend, had not changed his. His right hon. friend had succeeded in making that poster out of date to some extent but although they could no longer say it was a falsehood, they still earnestly wished they could, and he hoped that Unionist free-traders would continue their membership of the Unionist Party until they brought that poster back into fashion again. At any rate, they would not consent to leave the Party at the bidding of one, who, however distinguished a member of it now, was, after all, in his origin, only an alien immigrant.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,),who was received with OPPOSITION cries of "Another alien," said: It will not be very becoming in me to follow the latter and more personal part of my noble friend's speech. I intended on rising to deal more particularly with the appeal addressed to the Government earlier in the debate by the hon. Member for Durham and the junior Member for Oldham with regard to the next Colonial Conference. It has been truly said that the Colonial Conference, which would in that ordinary course assemble in July, 1906, is not in the strict sense of the word an automatic conference, but it is a conference which has been resolved upon by the members of the 1902 conference, and it would, in the absence of any special circumstances, no doubt meet about that time. These conferences have been hitherto ancillary
  1010
  to meetings on occasions of great national ceremonials, the Jubilee and tin Coronation, but in 1902 it was definitely resolved to hold them at intervals not exceeding four years, and so we got a definite period established for such Conference to meet upon strictly business occasions as distinguished from more or less ceremonial and festive occasions. Both sides of the House will agree that it would be a great pity to interfere, and especially to interfere without any assent of the Colonies, with the definite establishment of these conferences. It would be a pity to lose the definite and stated times of assembling, and especially it would be a deplorable thing from the colonial point of view if these conferences were postponed for any partisan purposes. That being so, I think the House will feel that it would be a very great pity if, by anything done by the present Government, or any Government, apart from the Colonies, there should be any definite postponement a long time beforehand of this Conference.
  I do not wish to enter upon the subjects which might come before them, but obviously there might arise before 1906 questions, apart from any commercial issue, of such gravity and importance as to make it necessary or desirable for us to consult the members of the Empire upon them, and I would deprecate profoundly any action by any Government which would postpone a conference already fixed to deal with such topics. It is equally clear that once the conference assembled it would not be in the Competence of anybody there to rule out of discussion any subject which any colonial Prime Minister chose to bring up. We meet there as members of equal States. Some months before the conference of 1902, the Prime Minister of New Zealand sent in an important proposition when it was obviously impossible for anybody to have proposed at that conference to have ruled these topics out of order. I should not speaking on behalf of the Government, on the present occasion like definitely to pledge the Government to postpone the conference of 1906 at all. Certainly no subject which the Colonies chose to bring forward would be ruled out. But the Prime Minister has already

  1011
  informed the House on two occasions that the Government did not intend to initiate any subject dealing with commercial preference, and he has also pledged himself not to summon any Indian representation to that meeting. Under these conditions I must say I agree with Lord Lansdowne, as I think anybody would who thought over the matter, that it would be extremely improbable that the Colonies would being up the fiscal question under such conditions. It is not a subject, of such an entrancing character, though I do not for a moment dispute its transcendant importance, ["No, no!"] It is not of so appetising a character that men will give the great labour of advancing and formulating propositions upon it when the conditions for their discussion are not the most favourable I therefore think that it is extremely improbable if the conference meets in July, 1906—not probable at all events—that these matters should be gone into in very great detail. But the last thing the Government desire is to interfere with the periodical meetings of these conferences, and they have said over and over again for the last six months that the conference should take place without any fetters or hampering restrictions whatever.
  With regard to the conference of July, 1906, not being present to the memory of the Prime Minister in September last year, I should be much surprised, as a careful student of their speeches, if a single Member on the bench opposite could rise in his place and say he had any knowledge that the conference was to assemble in 1906.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: It was made the subject of debate two years ago.
  MR. LYTTELTON: Had the right hon. Baronet been sitting on the front Opposition Bench I might not have given that challenge, but I do not think anybody at that time believed that the conference of July, 1906 had any relevance to what the Prime Minister said.
  I have been asked by the hon. Member for Durham what the position of the Government is. I listened to the speech of the Prime Minister and to that which he made a week ago. He attached to that Edinburgh speech a
  1012
  most definite meaning and he repeats that meaning, and of course that meaning is the policy of the Government. What does it come to? My right hon. friend has said, and has repeated again and again as clearly as it was possible to say it, that the most important and urgent of all questions of fiscal reform was the question of drawing closer the commercial ties between the Colonies and ourselves. I think the actual words were "most important and most urgent." This, of course, places the drawing together of the commercial ties between this country and the Colonies in the forefront of the programme, and places it alongside with the other head of a great fiscal change—retaliation. I have stated exactly to the House what the Prime Minister said, and what everybody understood him as saying, namely, that these two topics, retaliation and the drawing together of the commercial ties of the Empire, are in the forefront as the most urgent and important items of the Government programme.
  Then in the second place come the methods by which these ends, if achievable, should be achieved. The methods which we propose for the purpose is after the election to summon a conference. If the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. Member for Durham had read a few lines further down in the speech of the right hon. Member for Birmingham they would have found that part and parcel of the programme was the holding and assembling of a Colonial Conference. That enables me to deal with the point raised by my noble friend the Member for Greenwich. He has asked, if I rightly understand him, what is the purpose for which the conference will be held? I have always understood, if I have read his speeches aright, that he is in favour of a conference being held. Of course there are people who would go into the conference with different opinions as to what the result is likely to be, but no one will have the slightest doubt that the effect of asking and obtaining a mandate from the people to go into such a conference will be to strengthen the hands of those who are working for this mandate as a means for securing the commercial unity of the Empire. The Government are pledged to ask for a

  1013
  mandate to go into this conference if we are called to office after the next election. If we fail, of course the whole matter falls to the ground. So, then, the next election will necessarily entail a request by the Government to the country to give them a mandate to enter upon the consideration of these topics, closer commercial relations with the Colonies and retaliation.
  This enables me to answer the next Question of my noble friend. He is for the moment assuming, as I am assuming, the success of the Government at the next election. The conference accordingly is called together by the Government, with the mandate from the people to discuss these subjects, and the conference meets for the purpose and discusses questions arising out of these subjects, and among other conclusions he assumes that they may arrive at the conclusion that the taxation or readjustment of taxation upon food might be possible. He asks if it would be competent for the Government to recommend that proposal to the Parliament then sitting, and I say it would not. I have no doubt of that in my own mind, and I should have said that the Prime Minister had made that clear and had placed it beyond doubt. Really, it is only affectation on the part of hon. Gentlemen who doubt it at all. It will be necessary, according to the pledges given by the Prime Minister, for the Government to submit the resolution of the conference, so arrived at, to the people again at a second election. I think the Prime Minister made it equally clear in his speech at the Albert Hall that in the event of the Government failing in that election, all that has been said in regard to retaliation will of course lapse. I trust after what I have said there is no possible ambiguity about the position of the Government.
  MR. ASQUITH: I think the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down was inclined to be a little over sanguine when he expressed a hope that he had cleared up all ambiguity. He did give a reply categorically to the Question whether the Government if returned in the next Parliament would consider taxation of food within the
  1014
  scope of their mandate. But the Question I want to ask—I am sorry to be still in the interrogative mood, but I have no option—is one that has never yet been answered and to which I find no hint or glimmer of an Answer in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman we have just heard. It is this, what is the issue to be submitted to the country at the next election? [Cries of "Oh, oh!" "Hear, hear!" and "What is yours?"] It is not a question of holding a Colonial Conference. A Colonial Conference will be held, we all agree it should be held, but the question in which the country is interested is, are the Government going to ask the electors to give them power and authority to send to that conference as representatives of the United Kingdom men who are authorised to propose, accept, or entertain any proposition for the taxation of the food of the people of this country?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am very reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he has dropped something that seems to me important to note. I did not know that it was the intention on the part of himself and his friends, if returned to power, to summon an Imperial Conference for the purpose of discussing these subjects.
  MR. ASQUITH: I did not say anything of the kind. [Cries of "Oh, oh!" "Yes," "All agreed."] I know of no such intention. In the ordinary sequence of events I understand a Colonial Conference will in any case be held, and we on this side of the House are s anxious as anybody else that regular and periodical conferences should form part of the permanent machinery of our Empire. But since the right hon. Gentleman is so ready to put a Question to me, perhaps he will be equally ready to answer my question. I repeat the Question I have ventured to put, are the Government going to ask from the country authority to send to this special conference they propose to summon, men who would propose, accept, or entertain proposals for taxation of food? Sooner or later that Question will have to be answered, and I do not see why it should not be answered to-day.

  1015
  My right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies has referred to the speech of the Prime Minister at the Albert Hall as free from ambiguity and misunderstanding, but we cannot forget that on the morrow of that speech we had a version of it from the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, who had not only enjoyed the advantage of reading that speech in the papers, but if rumour is not altogether wrong, had had the advantage of frequent private communication with the head of the Government. In that version proceeding from this high authority the day after we are told that the effect of that speech —and the right hon. Gentleman professed to give his interpretation of it—is that colonial preference is the first item in the Unionist programme. I ask again, is that true or not? The two Questions resolve themselves into one, because if colonial preference is, as the right hon. Member for West Birmingham says, the item first in importance on their programme for the next election, it follows that they are going to ask for authority to propose, accept, or entertain resolutions for the taxation of food. That is the point upon which the whole of this discussion turns. Once more, in the interest not of Party, but of the intelligence of the people and in order that we and they may understand the issue on which we are going to fight, I ask the Government to say "yes" or "no" to that plain and simple Question:
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: This discussion has now been going on for a number of hours, and the speech just delivered seems to me to illustrate the objection to the course which was adopted when the Leader of the Opposition moved the adjournment of the House and which has been adopted to-day. What was the object with which the adjournment was moved the other night and what is the object of the Opposition this evening? To make an attack upon the head of the Government, to extort from him interpretations not only of his own speeches, but of other people's speeches—the whole thing is absolutely personal. It is perfectly clear that no one but the Prime Minister can give a full and complete Answer to the sort of Questions raised, and why, then, do you put
  1016
  him on the stage before you put the Questions? Why do you, you who are Englishmen and who have the ordinary notions of Englishmen as to fair play, why do you reserve your Questions, your attack, and your heavy artillery until a period when it is impossible for your opponent to reply?
  The Prime Minister said, in answer to the Question which up to that time had been put to him, that he refused to say anything about the interpretation which might have been put upon his speeches by anyone else. I confess I think he is absolutely right, and I, also, have some complaint of the interpretation put upon my speeches and of the way in which their language is altered, no proper, no full quotation being given, so as to hold me responsible—unless I jump up every moment like a jack-in-the-box—not for what I have said, but for what I am supposed to have said. Take the statement of the Leader of the Opposition. He says, and the hon. Member for Durham repeated it, that I am in favour of high duties. Well, when have I said that? The right hon. Gentleman may, as a matter of argument, say that that will be the result of my policy, but he has no right to accuse me of saying what I have not said. The right hon. Member for Durham says—"Oh, the right hon. Gentleman in continuous speeches has pointed out how much better off by almost, any test you can apply, are Germany and the United States under very high tariffs than we are." Yes, but I have never said that that was in consequerce of the very high tariffs. What I have said—and I am very glad to have the opportunity of explaining it here—and it is one of the strongest arguments that I can adduce—is to bring forward Germany and the United States to disprove all the statements of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who tell the people that the effect of introducing even a very small general tariff would be to ruin this country and to starve the people. All these statements of the terrible results that would follow are disproved by the fact that where you have not a small but a very high tariff those results do not follow. So far from approving of very high tariffs, I have used strong language on several occasions to express my opinion of such extravagant tariffs

  1017
  as exist in the United States, and I have said that in no circumstances could I approve of the application of similiar duties in this country. If hon. Members will look at the conclusions recently come to by the Tariff Commission—[OPPOSITION ironical laughter]—at all events that Commission has produced a vast amount of valuable evidence, and hon. Members would be less derisive if they were better acquainted with its conclusions—if they look at those conclusions, they will find that the duties which are proposed, and which may be assumed to be in accordance with my views, as I presided when they were unanimously adopted, are very light indeed. In no case do they exceed 10 per cent., and large classes of articles in the cotton, iron, and textile trades would be admitted free. I hope the misunderstanding of my views in regard to high duties will never be repeated after my definite repudiation of them.
  My noble friend the Member for Greenwich said that, according to my speech at St. Helens, the Prime Minister had mortgaged the Party to the taxation of food. Now where do we stand with regard to the taxation of food? I confess that the Prime Minister's speech, was absolutely clear, and that it should not require further elucidation. But I am perfectly willing to repeat my views, I of the position of the Government, and my reasons for holding them. I have never expressed this as the opinion of the Prime Minister, but only as my own personal opinion—that whenever you come to discuss colonial preference you will find, not that it is necessary to put taxation on food, but that it will be necessary to transfer some of the existing taxation on food from one article to another. That has been my contention from the first. Everyone understands what is meant—to take off taxation on tea, sugar, and tobacco, and similar objects of large consumption by the poor, in order to put some of that taxation back on another article of food—namely, corn. Now, what is the position of the Government with regard to that? Let me say beforehand, hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to have mistaken that statement of mine as to what might be necessary as a declaration that under all conceivable circumstances
  1018
  it would be necessary or desirable. I have never said anything of the sort. I have said again and again that you cannot tell what the Colonies will give in return until you meet the Colonies with the intention of a certaining their views and what they are prepared to offer. I have said that if they were unwilling to give a sufficient equivalent, of course my proposals in regard to the Colonies would fall to the ground. I never asked any supporters in the country to give me their pledge that they would vote for the taxation of food in any circumstances, and I am not going to do it at the general election. What I ask is that they should not close their minds to the possibility of this resort. I want them to avoid the attitude of my noble friend, who I am to take as a stanch representative of the Conservative Party, and who never changes his mind. I do not want them to place themselves in antagonism to a course of policy the advantage of which must depend on information not now before them. When the conference has met, and we know what the Colonies will give and what we are asked to give in return, then it will be time to come to a decision. But is not that exactly what the Government has said, and not only by the mouth of the Prime Minister?
  Hon. Gentlemen would be saved a great deal of unnecessary curiosity in regard to this question of the taxation of food and the views of the Prime Minister if they would refer to a speech which was made by the Prime Minister, by an odd coincidence, on the very day that I made my first speech at Birmingham calling attention prominently to this matter. On May, 15th 1903, the Prime Minister addressed a great deputation of Members on this side of the House who protested against the abolition of the corn duties. I am certain that in the course of that speech my right hon. friend spoke of the importance of a closer commercial union with the Colonies, and expressed his readiness to consider any proposals for such a purpose favourably, even though they involved a slight taxation of food, Where were my noble friend the Member for Greenwich and my hon. friend the Member for Durham on that occasion? There is the statement to which, they

  1019
  take so much exception. Their objections now are belated; they ought to have got up then. It is absurd now to say that the thing is new and requires them to move the adjournment of the House and vote against their Party. They give to what has lately taken place an unnatural importance. From the beginning of this matter I believe that the Prime Minister and myself in all essentials have stood upon exactly the same platform. [OPPOSITION cries of "Agreed, agreed."]
  The right hon. Gentleman opposite asked whether it was true that the first issue of the Unionist Party at the next election would be colonial preference. This is what the Prime Minister said at the Albert Hall—
  What I have said about what is commonly known as retaliation I say with equal emphasis and far greater feeling on that other great branch of fiscal reform which, while most difficult, is also most important."
  There you have a most distinct statement that that question of fiscal reform is the most important.
  "What has been asked," the Prime Minister went on, "in respect of this, the greatest, the most important, and, for reasons based mainly on colonial sentiment, the most urgent of all the great constructive problems with which we have to deal?"
  The Prime Minister says that commercial union with the Colonies is the most urgent of the great constructive problems with which we have to deal. I interpreted that, and I interpret it still, as meaning that if the Government goes to the country it will put before it in the first place what the Prime Minister has declared to be the most important issue. It may be very amusing to hon. Members to quibble over a slight variation of meaning in the words respectively used by the Prime Minister and myself. They know perfectly well that, although they are engaged in picking all our speeches to pieces, and while it is possible here and there to find a word of difference, they will not find any substantial difference in point of principle between myself and the Prime Minister.
  LORD HUGH CECIL:I have found shoals in reading your speeches.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Will the noble Lord put them forward?
  LORD HUGH CECILmade a remark in the Press Gallery.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The proper place for expressing opinion is in the House of Commons, and I do not know why, when the noble Lord rose formerly and expressed his opinion with great humour and amusement to the House he should have omitted what ought to have been the essential part of his argument. Up to the present time the only point, I think in which he suggested what I should call a difference of principle between my right hon. friend and myself was that what he had said was inconsistent with the statement that the first object is colonial preference. Now, I have read what he said; and I ask any intelligent, reasonable person whether there is the slightest inconsistency with the words I have read and the statement I made on that occasion.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: There is all the difference between considering whether you will do a thing and doing it.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I really cannot follow my noble friend at all. He makes a distinction which to my mind is almost Jesuitical. I will only say in conclusion that, while I do not in the slightest object to the personal attack which my noble friend made upon me—I enjoy the humour of it—I yet think that, considering his determination to remain in this Party, he might avoid making scorn of a colleague in the presence of his opponents. My noble friend says that I am an alien immigrant; but he forgets that for eighteen years this has been the Unionist Party. I think that he went even further and suggested that I was an undesirable alien. I hope that is not the fact; but mean while, humbly recognising my very difficult position, I will not venture to advise the noble Lord in regard to his own action.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: Will the right hon. Gentleman refrain from advising my constituency?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I will not advise the noble Lord. Advice to his constituents is a different matter, and as

  1021
  a matter of fact I do not remember that I have advised his constituents. But I do not dwell upon that, because I am perfectly ready to advise them. If they ask for my opinion I will tell my noble friend the advice I will give. I should give the same advice as that which, I believe, he gave to the constituents of the hon. Member for Horsham at the time there was a contested election in that constituency. I hope that this debate, at all events, will have had the advantage of giving to hon. Member opposite the information for which they have been so clamorous, and that, after about the twentieth time of repetition, we may hope they will understand it.
  MR. RITCHIE: I was present throughout the debate; bat I should not have risen had it not been for the speech to which the House has just listened. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham has striven his utmost to show that there is no difference whatever between himself and the Prime Minister. I can thoroughly understand the right hon. Gentleman taking that course. Let us see how the matter stands. The right hon. Gentleman says there is no difference of opinion. In my opinion there is no difference which is a very important one. It is whether or not there are to be two elections before the taxation of food shall be placed before the country. The Prime Minister declared at the outset that it was his intention not to make any proposal on this subject until after two elections. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham takes strong exception to that view and has tried to show it is not only unnecessary but unwise, and he has done his utmost to get that part of the Prime Minister's policy eliminated. That very important distinction having been decided against the right hon. Gentleman, he now wishes to cover his defeat by endeavouring to show that on all other essentials his policy is the same as that of the Prime Minister. To my mind, there is a fundamental difference. The right hon. Gentleman declared that the Prime Minister had placed tariff reform in the forefront of his programme. What does he understand by Tariff reform? What he means by tariff reform is what a good many of us
  1022
  think is protection. Protection pure and simple. The right hon. Gentleman wishes to do away with the imports of manufactured goods.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Oh, no.
  MR. RITCHIE: Then he wants to lessen them, and he proposes, in order to do that, that an import duty should be put upon them. That is what I call protection. Everyone knows perfectly well that the right hon. Gentleman's speech from beginning to end has been a speech advocating protection. The right hon. Gentleman has been protectionist throughout. My right hon. friend the Prime Minister, on the other hand, has never advocated protection. The policy of tariff reform as enunciated by him in the many speeches he has made on this subject is quite a different thing. His view is retaliation. Now my view of retaliation I have often expressed. I see nothing inimical to free trade in retaliation. I do not regard retaliation as a policy at all. I regard it as a mere expedient which we might use in times of great difficulty, but I do not see how we could use it against those nations who are the greatest offenders unless we tax food, with which I do not agree. The view of my right hon. friend the Prime Minister is that tariff reform is the power of retaliation; the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham with regard to tariff reform is quite different. If my memory does not play me false I have heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham speak slightingly of retaliation.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No.
  MR. RITCHIE: I may have been mistaken, but will the right hon. Gentleman suggest that his policy of tariff reform does not go further than retaliation.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No.
  MR. RITCHIE: I am speaking to hon. Gentlemen who have heard the speeches over and over again, and I adhere to the declaration that the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member

  1023
  for West Birmingham is a wider and more important policy than that of retaliation. Then on the question of preferentia duties the right hon. Gentleman said that the Prime Minister put preferential treatment in the forefront of his programme. The Prime Minister never said anything of the kind. What he said was that his policy was to call a Colonial Conference. There is a most essential difference, and for the right hon. Gentleman to say there is no difference between the Government policy as enunciated by the Prime Minister and his own is to tamper with the common-sense of the community. I should not have risen to have taken part in this debate, but I could not refrain from rising and pointing out that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham was misrepresenting in toto the policy of my right hon. friend the Prime Minister.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid he rose in response to the challenge of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, who called upon anyone who could find any difference between his policy and that of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister at once to speak or to for ever after hold his peace. There was this difference, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham did not quote the First Lord of the Treasury to prove that he was in favour of preference; he constructed a number of phrases from the speeches of his right hon. friend the First Lord and drew the preferential inference from them. The right hon. Gentleman concatenated one phrase and another, and said this means preference. The answer was plain; there was no question of the policy of preference forming part of the policy of His Majesty's Government. Did His Majesty's Government concur in the possible taxation of food and raw material? No, His Majesty's Government were opposed to any duty either on raw material or on food. That was the declaration of the Government. [An HON. MEMBER: Who said that?] He must remind the House that a Government was a corporate entity, and when a Minister spoke in the name and on behalf of the Government it did not
  1024
  matter who the Minister was. Two right hon. Gentlemen stated that in that House at that Table—one the President of the Board of Trade, and the other the Home Secretary. Let him not be told that when they spoke on behalf of the Government they were of less weight than the Prime Minister himself. They were all of equal weight and authority, or else there was no Government at all, but only a collection of atoms. Neither retaliation nor the holding of a conference was a policy. They were mere expedients and only contingent expedients.
  There was this difference also between the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham and the policy of the Prime Minister: his 10 per cent. duty was to be universal. The right hon. Gentleman's five per cent. on dairy produce was to be levied alike on the just and the unjust, as the rain fell from heaven, whereas the Prime Minister's duties were to be levied only on those who did us injury by refusing our goods. That was the difference, and it was all the difference in the world. Retaliation was contingent, first, upon injury, and secondly, which was more important—upon acceptance by the House. Every proposal for retaliation was to be brought before the House of Commons, and any proposal for retaliation that could secure the assent of Parliament would meet with his heartiest approval. Then, too, the Colonial Conference was contingent on the result of the next general election. If the Government was not returned to power there would be no conference. Thus both retaliation and conference were contingent on the prospects of the next general election, and what those prospects were hon. Members could judge for themselves. Were they not being amused by the meanings attached to words according to the desire of the person who attached them? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham spoke of protection as though it were free trade, while the First Lord of the Treasury occasionally, and the Colonial Secretary almost invariably, spoke of free trade as if it were protection. In fact, the words were made to mean just what

  1025
  the particular speaker liked. It reminded him of "Alice in Wonderland."
  "When I say a word," said Humpty Dumpty, "it means exactly what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make a word moan two different things.' "The question is" said Humpty Dumpty, "who shall be master?'"
  For two years this wearying controversy had continued, for two years unsuccessful endeavours had been made to get the question settled in the House; for two years Members had been some amused, others interested, by ambiguous utterances and uncertain pronouncements. There was only one way in which all this could be ended, and that was by an appeal to the country, by the general election which had been too long delayed, and without which it was not possible either for the country to pronounce its opinion, or for this House to regain the dignity which he could not but think it had lost through the way in which it had been treated, and the uncertainties which had been presented to it with regard to the most important question now before the country.
  MR. CATHCART WASONin calling attention to the question of motor-cars, said he would not have troubled the House further on the matter but for the fact that the President of the Local Government Board was reported as having said that—
  "Although the policy of the Board was not his, but that of his predecessor, he entirely associated himself with all that was being done."
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,)was understood to dispute the accuracy of the report.
  MR. CATHCART WASONsaid the right hon. Gentleman was reported in The Times as having said that he entirely associated himself with all that was being done. He reminded the House that he recently charged the late President of the Local Government Board with a breach of faith, and after reading the reply of the right hon. Gentleman he was unable to understand upon what he based his fervent denials and declared his (the speaker's) statements to be in-
  1026
  correct. When the Motor-Car Bill was before the House in 1903, it contained not the smallest provision giving any power whatever to local authorities. An overwhelming opinion was expressed in favour of the local authorities having some control. The right hon. Gentleman I admitted having an interview with him and he (the hon. Member) left the room as fully satisfied that the understanding would be given effect to as if he had had a thousand witnesses or a document attested and drawn by highest legal authority. The result of that interview was that in another place Lord Balfour of Burleigh, in moving the necessary words, said he believed they would facilitate the passage of the Bill, and, the words having been inserted, the Bill passed. Those facts were sufficient to prove the accuracy of his statement on the occasion of the recent discussion on the Local Government Board Vote. He left the right hon. Gentleman's room as fully satisfied that a fair and reasonable consideration would be given to the demands of the local authorities as though he had had a thousand witnesses, or had the promise embodied in a document drawn up by the highest legal authorities and duly stamped and signed.
  His complaint in regard to the circular issued by the Local Government Board was that those very sections which the right hon. Gentleman told them they could most rely upon had been rendered valueless by the action of the Local Government Board. Section 1 simply reenacted the common law of England, and the object of inserting that section in the Act at all was to give the local authorities some control over motor-curs. He was aware that this matter would come before the House again upon an early date, and therefore he would be content with simply repeating that he was quite satisfied that no Bill would be satisfactory to the House which did not give, mire effective control to the local authorities in their own areas. He had not said one word against the motor-car industry, for he agreed that the motor-car had come to stay; but he thought it was a monstrous thing that local authorities should be deprived of all control over their own roads owing to regulations drawn up

  1027
  in the office of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. This country would never stand the present state of affairs for long. They had got in Hyde Park a speed limit of ten miles an hour, but just outside the Park, owing to the action of the Local Government Board, motor-cars were allowed to go at twenty miles an hour. He was aware that shortly the Act would come up for revision, and he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had decided to appoint a Committee or a Commission to make some inquiry into the whole matter.
  The action of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor required to be inquired into. The President of the Local Government Board had power to give the local authorities some control in this matter. In consequence of the circular, issued by the Local Government Board, only some fifty-seven applications were made by local authorities under the Act, thirteen inquiries only took place, seventeen withdrew their applications, and in seventeen cases nothing whatever was done. He thought from these figures the right hon. Gentleman would see that it was necessary to give the local authorities some control in the matter. He was not asking that local authorities should have sole control, or that they should be in the position of being able to stop motor-cars in their districts; but at any rate they ought to be able to step in and impose a speed limit in dangerous places in towns and villages, and he protested against the Local Government Board interfering in this matter in the manner in which it had done.
  He had received violent letters, not only from his own political supporters, but also from Conservatives, and even from members of the Carlton Club, denouncing the existing state of things. Hon. Members did not appear to take that, active interest in this motor-car question which they ought to, because the whole country was up in arms against the present system. Motoring was looked upon as the amusement of the privileged few, and the impression was that everybody must get out of the road when a motor-car was approaching, and that the cars need not stop for anything. If people wished to drive about at a speed out of all reason then they
  1028
  should bear the cost of it themselves. Many other hon. Members of the House I felt just as strongly upon this point as he did himself, and a most bitter feeling against motorists was being created throughout the country. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would do his best to minimise some of those evils before the meeting of the next Parliament in order that they might then proceed with the discussion of the new Motor-Car Act in a much calmer frame of mind than public feeling would allow them to do at the present moment. Under the Order such cars as "heavy motors" were restricted to a minimum speed of eight miles an hour, if fitted with pneumatic, or soft, or electric tyres, and of five miles an hour if fitted with other kinds of tyres. Article VII. of the statutory rules and orders provided that the speed at which the heavy motor-car might be driven on any highway should not exceed twelve miles an hour.
  MR. SAMUEL SMITHsaid he rose to say a few words on the Scottish Churches case.
  COLONEL LOCK WOODrose to order and asked whether the hon. Member could speak on a Bill now before the House?
  MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member will not be entitled to discuss the Bill, but I gather that the point he wishes to raise is the desirability of pressing forward this particular piece of legislation.
  MR. SAMUEL SMITHsaid he wished to urge the Government to press on this Bill with great rapidity because it could hardly be realised how great was the feeling in Scotland over the matter. He had never known the feelings of the people so roused as they were in this case by the divorce between law and equity. In fact, it was doing a great deal to destroy the respect for law in Scotland—the most law-abiding part of the Empire— and he feared unless something was done there would be lamentable outbreaks as a result of the acute and strained feeling all over the country and especially in the Highlands. He regretted the Government had included in the Bill

  1029
  proposals on matters in regard to a change in the constitution of the Established Church. It was reasonable that Churches should have more liberty given them than in the past, especially after the decision of the House of Lords, but at the same time, if the effect was to delay seriously or to jeopardise seriously the chance for settlement in the existing situation, it was a great mistake to put the question of the Established Church constitution in the Bill. He hoped the Government would not permit a reasonable desire to grant a certain amount of latitude to the Established Church to jeopardise a settlement of the exceedingly difficult situation in Scotland which could not be endured much longer.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR,said the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland seemed to have taken an extraordinary course in this debate. He had referred to the debate of last Thursday, in which he charged the Chief Secretary for Ireland, with having broken a pledge which he gave to local authorities, when President of the Local Government Board, as to the regulation of the speed of motors in I their districts. His right hon. friend's reply was absolutely satisfactory to the House, and now the hon. Gentleman made the same charge. He did not think the hon. Gentleman had warned his right hon. friend that he meant to do so, otherwise his right hon. friend would have been there to reply. He rose not to reply on behalf of his right hon. friend on a matter which, he thought, was disposed of last Thursday, but to answer one or two points raised in connection with himself. The hon. Member had quoted him as having said that he associated himself with all that his predecessor had done. He did not know from what paper the hon. Member was quoting, but an hon. friend who had referred to The Times report had been unable to find any words of that kind. What he said last Thursday was that he agreed with his predecessor in considering that Section 1 of the Act afforded the best protection against abuses on the part of motorists rather than any limit of speed—he did not say that he associated himself with everything
  1030
  that had been done when the Chief Secretary for Ireland was President of the Local Government Board, nor was he in a position to say so, because he would have had to examine every one of the applications made by local authorities for a limitation or restriction of speed and come to the conclusion that his right hon. friend was absolutely right. He did not pretend to have gone through all the cases.
  MR. CATHCART WASONsaid the words he had quoted had actually appeared in the Press.
  MR. GERALD BALFOURsaid he did associate himself with the policy of his predecessor in regard to Section 1 of the Act. He gave an assurance last Thursday that he was perfectly prepared to consider every application made to him, and that his desire was, as far as he conscientiously could, to meet the wishes of the local authorities. The hon. Member had also raised the question of the speed of heavy motor-cars. The Answer he gave to a Question put by the hon. Gentleman on that subject was perfectly correct. The hon. Gentleman had not quite apprehended the purport of the Answer. If a motor weighed up to twelve tons one of the axle weights must weigh more than six tons, and therefore the speed must necessarily be eight miles an hour instead of twelve.
  MR. DELANYsaid he wished to call attention to the policy of the Irish Government in regard to the expenditure from the development grant for the encouragement of industry in Ireland. At the present time large parts of the resources of Ireland were expended on the salaries of official servants who, for the most part, were imported from England. He hoped that industrial enterprise in Ireland would be encouraged, not by word of mouth, but by some assistance from the Agricultural and Technical Education Department. There was another important matter connected with the Department which the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary must be cognisant of.

  1031
  Assertions had been made over and over again, which could be substantiated by the most positive evidence, that exceptional treatment was meted out to a certain class of clerks in the veterinary department. To every one of the non-Catholic clerks in that department additions had been made to their salaries, from £130 to the chief clerk down to; £30 to the others, while the salaries of the Catholic clerks had actually been reduced to £90 with a promise of an increment of £2 10s. a year. He believed that the salaries of some of them were at present only £97 10s. a year, although these men had been working for ten years in the service of the Crown. What he asked for was an independent investigation into the matter. When Questions were asked by Irish Members they only got stereotyped replies. Like the statements of the police in other cases, the right hon. Gentleman only acted as a gramaphone to the Vice-President of the Department. The heads of the Department were the accused parties, and the clerks did not want them to be their judges. What they wanted was an independent investigation in regard to the partisan and sectarian treatment of these men.
  THE CHIEF SECRETAY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALTER LONG, Bristol, S.)said that he knew that the Vice-President of the Agricultural and Technical Education Department was as anxious as any one could be that everything should be done for the industrial development of Ireland, and he himself had looked very carefully into the question. The charges made against the Department were unfounded. Everything that the Government could do with the funds at their disposal would be done to encourage and develop the industries of Ireland which were most likely to be profitable and beneficial to the people. In regard to the statement that Protestants were unfairly promoted in the veterinary department to the detriment of Catholics, his Answer must be in the negative. There was no justification for an independent inquiry as suggested as no injustice had been done. He had locked carefully into the facts of the case and he was satisfied the charges
  1032
  were unfounded. Everything had been perfectly proper, and no injury had been inflicted on any one in the service.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved, "That this House, at its rising To-morrow, do adjourn till Tuesday, 20th June."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

  EVENING STTING.

    LIGHT DUES.
    MR. CHARLES McARTHURsaid the principle on which the Resolution which he proposed to move was based was that the lighting of the coast was not the duty of any particular trade but a national duty. The principle upon which the present system was based was that it was the duty of the shipping trade alone to light the coasts of the United Kingdom and Ireland for the benefit of all concerned; that they and they alone should light the coasts. He reminded the House, however, that those who benefited were not merely the owners of the vessels that came to trade with this country but also the owners of the cargoes, the masters, and the crews who navigated the vessels and, above all, His Majesty's Navy. All these various interests benefited by the lighting of the coasts, and, therefore, it was manifestly unfair that the whole cost of lighting the same should be thrown on the shipping trade. If the shipping trade of this country ceased to exist it would still be incumbent on us to light our coasts in order that the safety of those who approached our shores might not be imperilled by the dangers of our coast. The lighting of our coasts was, in fact, a national obligation; a duty which we owed as one civilised nation to other civilised nations, and it devolved upon us to perform that obligation under all circumstances.
    This question had been investigated by several Select Committees and those Committees had unanimously pronounced in favour of transferring

    1033
    the cost of lighting our coasts from the shipping trade to the Exchequer. In 1822 and 1834 Select Committees reported in favour of the principle, whilst in 1845 a Select Committee declared it was essentially a national duty, and they recommended that all expense for the maintenance of lighthouses, floating lights, buoys, and beacons should be henceforth defrayed out of public revenue. In 1858, when this matter was again before the House, in the course of the debate, before a Committee was appointed, Lord Palmerston said the lighting of our coasts was undoubtedly a duty which belonged to the State rather than the individual, and finally a Committee in 1860 declared upon this point that the lighting of our coasts was a high Imperial duty which we owed not only to ourselves but to strangers who came to our shores. The Select Committee in 1900 which sat to inquire into the question of steamship subsidies also recommended that light dues should be abolished, and the Bill that was introduced last year by the hon. Member for Newcastle was read a second time in a House of 284 Members by a majority of twenty-six.
    Whenever this question had been discussed in or out of Parliament the conclusions arrived at had been the same, namely, that this charge ought to be a national charge. That contention was not only supported by principle but also by the practice of all the great maritime nations with the exception of Great Britain. France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland, and the United States, all lighted their coasts at the expense of the State and controlled the lighting by a Department of State. Japan, which all must recognise as one of the most progressive of nations, adopted the same principle, whilst even Russia, which was not regarded as progressive in many ways, was more progressive in this respect than Great Britain, she having adopted the same principle. It might be said that although foreign countries did not specifically charge light dues they charged tonnage dues which corresponded with our light dues, but in his view they did nothing of the kind. They corresponded more to our port and harbour charges.
    1034
    They had to notice that the total charges incumbent upon ships trading in foreign ports were generally less than those charged in the United Kingdom, and he instanced the case of the steamer "Milwaukee," of the Elder, Dempster line, which in course of her trading touched at Hamburg, where the charges were £228 11s. 4d.; Rotterdam, £107 3s.; Antwerp, £198 2s. 3d.; Liverpool, £409 12s.; and London, £497 Os. 10d. This would show what an encouragement it was for vessels to go to the rival ports of the Continent which had got the benefit of these decreased charges.
    The lighting of the coasts was in the hands of four authorities, the Trinity House, the Northern Lights Commissioners, the Irish Lights Commissioners, and the Board of Trade. Trinity House was managed by thirteen Elder Brethren, no doubt of great experience in nautical affairs, but whose experience could not be of a modern character when the House recollected that seven members were over sixty-five years of age, two being seventy, two being eighty, and one being over ninety. The Commissioners of Northern Lights were mostly legal gentlemen, who in their vocation could, no doubt, deliver luminous decisions, but whose luminosity was not of that kind which was necessary to light the coast. What they wanted was that the whole administration of the lighthouses should be transferred to the Board of Trade. The charge he had to bring against the existing authorities was that they were wasteful and inefficient. In 1900 an Advisory Committee of shipowners and merchants was appointed by the President of the Board of Trade, and they had come to the conclusion not only that the expenditure was excessive and the service conducted in an inefficient way, but that the entire system was objectionable, and ought to be reformed. During the past year the Advisory Committee had prevented a proposed expenditure of £30,200 by the Commissioners of Irish Lights who thought they should have a new vessel in place of the "Princess Alexandra," which they alleged was worn out, but which it was proved could be repaired at a cost of about £800. There was a complaint also as to the delay of nearly

    1035
    a year in the publication of the accounts which, moreover, gave altogether insufficient detail. Items of £40,000 and £50,000 were given without any details. Then there was the increased expenditure from year to year on new works, the average of the last nine years having been £91,892. The maintenance of lighthouses had also gone up by leaps and bounds, and it was impossible to say why. Whereas the average cost of maintenance per lightship had been under the three general authorities £1,252, the average cost in the case of local lightships was £681 17s. 8d. Whilst a French lightship averaged 8s. 4d. per cubic foot for construction, the English averaged £1 7s. 9d., although the French light service was admittedly one of the best in the world. And there was no reason in the world why we in this matter should not take a leaf out of their book. In point of fact Trinity House had recently ordered a French lightship in order to test it. In 1902 the British total expenditure, exceeded the French, Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian combined.
    As to the efficiency of the service he did not wish to make indiscriminate charges, but much that he had said pointed to the inefficiency of the service in some respects, at any rate, and he must refer to the gross inefficiency of the Irish lights. The Irish lights were most inaccurate, they did not agree with the chart, and consequently vessels were exposed to the greatest danger. Representations had been made on this subject, but the replies which had been received from the Irish Lights Commissioners were not at all satisfactory. This was a most important matter, involving the safety of life and property, and the question ought to be most seriously taken in hand. He did not think tinkering with the question would be of any use, and the whole system would have to be reformed, root and branch. Shipowners ought not to bear these charges at all, and they were now being called upon to bear a good deal more than would be the case if the lights were more economically administered. He understood that his hon. friend the Member for Sheffield intended to object to this Motion on the ground that it was not
    1036
    right to carry out this reform at the expense of the National Exchequer. If a certain section of the community had for a long time been penalised, was it wrong that they should be relieved from that injustice? Was his hon. friend prepared to defend a system which was obsolete and antiquated? He was not asking the House forthwith, to place these charges upon the Public Exchequer, because there would have to be legislation, and it was a matter which would have to be undertaken by the Government; but they did ask the House to accept the principle, leaving it to the Government to apply this principle when they had a favourable opportunity of doing so. When that opportunity arose, the Government would find very considerable help from a large body of Members of that House. They were all proud of their maritime supremacy, but if something was not done in the direction he had suggested the time might come when that supremacy would be gone. While they were unable to decide what to do in the Port of London, Antwerp had adopted a great improvement scheme, which would quadruple their dock accommodation and give two new channels to the river. That had been done largely at the expense of the State, with some assistance from the municipality. He trusted that the House would not refuse to relieve the shipping. trade of these restrictions which prevented them from having a fair chance in competition with their commercial rivals abroad. The House had already pronounced in favour of the Second Reading of a Bill carrying out this object, and he trusted that hon. Members would now decide that the time had come to put an end to this long-standing injustice by adopting this Motion.
    SIR WILLIAM HOLLANDin seconding the Motion, said he had had exceptional opportunities of judging the feeling of the chambers of commerce in this country in regard to this question, and he was able to assure the House that times out of number the Associated Chambers of Commerce of the United Kingdom had passed resolutions urging the Government to deal with this question, and they had passed such resolutions unanimously.

    1037
    Shipowners were determined to keep pegging away at this question until they got this reform conceded. All they wanted was fair play, and they claimed that the light dues were unequal in their operation and unjust in principle. Five Select Committees and one Royal Commission had reported in favour of this Resolution. In consequence of these light dues a very great injustice was inflicted upon British shipowners by the United States of America, where the authorities had retaliated by placing dues upon British shipping, and this country was getting by far the worst of the bargain. American ships contributed to our light dues about £4,000 or £5,000 annually, but British shipowners had to pay to the United States for light dues no less than £50,000 or £60,000 per annum. They had to pay that large sum solely because this country charged light dues upon American ships making use of our ports. This was an affair which interested not only shipowners, but also the public at large. It was a subject which very closely affected the safety of our ships, and therefore it was a most vital question. The mover of this Resolution had urged that the administration of the light dues should be transferred to the Board of Trade. He thought this was an opportune moment for carrying out a reform of that kind, because they were very likely to have shortly a Minister of Commerce, and the duties of the Board of Trade would have to be reorganised.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, in the opinion of this House, the Lighting of the Coasts of the United Kingdom is a national duty, for the efficient performance of which full departmental responsibility should be assumed by the State and the cost defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament, instead of, as now, by charges on merchant shipping."—(Mr. Charles McArthur.)
    MR. J. F. HOPEsaid he had put his Amendment down entirely upon his own responsibility without the instigation or the knowledge of any official person. The Motion before the House raised interesting points about the incidence of this
    1038
    charge with which the debate was concerned. It had been assumed that the whole of this charge for light dues fell upon the shipowner. It might be contended that this charge fell upon the shipper in diminution of his profits, or that it fell upon the consumer because he would have to pay more for the goods on account of the extra freights. If it fell upon the shipper then he did not think they needed to discuss the matter, because the burden would not in that case fall upon anyone in this country. If it fell upon the consumer he should be prepared to contend that it was better that the charge should fall upon the consumer of those particular goods than upon the taxpayer at large. It had, however, been admitted both by the mover and the seconder that this charge fell upon the shipping industry, that was upon the shipowners. He would ask why was Parliament, out of Imperial taxation, to be called upon to relieve shipowners of this special burden? This charge on the shipowners was estimated, last year by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at about Is. 6d. per £100 worth of goods carried, but if the whole volume of trade out and home was taken it worked out at 1s. 3d. Surely that was not a very serious burden. The railway industry, both in regard to local rates and the requirements of the Board of Trade, was subjected to far heavier charges than anything which fell on the shipping industry, and the same might be said of many other industries. In his opinion the burden placed upon the coalowner was infinitely heavier than in this case. He agreed that if the Workmen's Compensation Act was extended to the shipping trade that would impose upon shipping a new burden, and the case would be somewhat different.
    He was surprised to see the hon. Member for Rotherham supporting this Motion, because he was an ardent advocate of the Rating of Machinery Bill, and he wished to see machinery exempt from rating. He had great sympathy for that proposal, but he did not see how machinery could be exempted from rating without throwing a heavy burden upon other classes such as small householders, and therefore he was opposed to it. Already the heavy non-textile industries were

    1039
    subjected to other heavy burdens in the shape of local rates whilst shipowners were free from suck burdens. Therefore if any relief was to be given it should not be given to the shipowners, but to the heavy non-textile industries. He could not see why the cost of lighting our coasts should be placed upon the Public Exchequer. Would it not be equally as reasonable to place the entire cost of signalling on the railways upon the National Exchequer? Reference had been made to what was done in other countries, but foreign nations did practically what we did in some way or another. The law of reciprocity in this matter in the United States had only been found capable of extension to two countries, namely, Denmark and Holland. All other countries were not admitted to the benefits of the United States reciprocity law because in some form or other, whether in the shape of tonnage or harbour dues, they practically levied the same charges as were imposed in this country in the form of light dues. Therefore, in this matter, the Government of the United States held the view that other countries did not treat them any better than this country.
    The demand made by this Motion was that a charge of something like £500,000 a year should be placed upon the shoulders of the public, and he submitted that in the present state of their national finances this was a demand which ought not to be granted. He submitted emphatically that the time had not arrived when anything ought to be done in this matter. The recommendations of the Local Taxation Commission were far more important than this question, because they would confer a benefit upon the ratepayers at large. Taxation at the present moment was high, and it would be very difficult for any Chancellor of the Exchequer to defend the imposition of another £500,000 upon the taxation of this country in view of the urgent requirements of other industries. How could the Chancellor of the Exchequer possibly justify his position before the general body of taxpayers if he acceded to this Motion. He had great admiration for the courage of the right hon. Gentleman, but he did not think he would have the Audacity to grant this demand in face
    1040
    of the great need for relief from taxation in other more worthy directions. A great portion of these light dues were not paid by the home shipper at all but by the foreigner, to the extent of about 30 per cent. The debate illustrated the inconsistency of human nature, and especially Parliamentary human nature. Much had recently been heard of the necessity for economy, but one looked round in vain for the advocates of economy to oppose this Motion. If the shipping industry asked for a renewal of the Navigation Act he would be inclined to support them, but on the present occasion that support must be withheld. On purely theoretical grounds something might be said for the Motion, but in view of the present state of the national finances it would require a considerable amount of audacity to defend such a, proposal before the country. Possibly some day, when the Exchequer was overflowing, when no class complained of overtaxation, and when the navies of all possible enemies were at the bottom of the sea, a proposal of this kind might be entertained, but in the meantime, as the representative of an inland town, he must give it his most strenuous opposition. He begged to move the Motion standing in his name.
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out all words after the word 'That' and insert the words 'it is inexpedient, in the present, condition, of the national finances, to place any substantial burden upon the Exchequer for the relief of a particular section of the community.'"
    MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Does any hon. Member second the Amendment?
    There being no response, the Amendment dropped.
    MR. HOUSTONpointed out that lighthouses were first introduced by religious communities, and then kept up by philanthropic landowners along the coast; they afterwards became a source of profit, and during various reigns, especially that of Charles II., were granted to different persons as rewards for meritorious services. They

    1041
    had been a source of profit ever since that time. It was not until 1850 that the Board of Trade were given the control and superintendence of matters relating to the mercantile marine, including the lighthouse service. Practically no other civilised country imposed such a tax as this upon shipowners; it was and ought to be a national charge. There was no more reason why one section of the community should be charged with the lighting of the coasts than there was why one section should be charged with the lighting of the streets. The streets, late at night, were used principally by criminals, policemen, doctors, and legislators. What would be said if these classes only had to bear the cost of lighting the streets? The reason why this burden was allowed to remain on shipping was because that trade which, with its allied industries, was the greatest in the country was not represented on the Treasury Bench. If it had been a question affecting agriculture, Parliament would have turned a much more willing ear to the appeals made, and probably doles would have been given. Why? Because a great number of Cabinet Ministers were much more interested in land than in shipping. When the dying patriarch summoned his sons to his bedside, he said, "Issachar is a strong ass, couching between the two burdens." He thought Jacob must have had in his mind the modern prototype of Issachar—the British shipowner, who was indeed an ass couching between grandmotherly legislation and unjust taxation on the one hand, and foreign subsidised competition on the other. But even that most patient domestic animal would turn, and possibly, if the shipowners emulated the example of the loyal Unionists of Ulster, the hearing of the Government might improve and the appeal be more favourably considered. He would not say a word against the Board of Trade; he only wished they would give more heed to this appeal.
    The Navy did not contribute anything to the lighting of the coasts, yet there was every reason why it should. The Navy during manœuvres was a standing menace and source of danger to the mercantile marine, as was seen in the recent disaster in
    1042
    the Channel. They went steaming about without lights, and yet they paid nothing for the lighting of the coasts. The mercantile marine was not only a national but an Imperial asset. It was the link which bound our Colonies to us, and I anything done to weaken it was a serious mistake. We were dependent for our food supplies on our shipping, and there was every reason why that industry should be encouraged, more particularly at the present time, when by foreign subsidised competition freights were not remunerative.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,] Worcestershire, E.)said he did not propose to deal at length with the speech of the hon. Member who had just spoken. For the Government which he supported the hon. Member found terms only slightly less uncomplimentary than for the gentlemen who were his colleagues in the trade which he represented. The hon. Member described the Navy as a menace to the mercantile marine, and the mercantile marine as the greatest link between ourselves and our Colonies. He would just venture to suggest to the hon. Member that were it not for our Navy that link of Empire would be very quickly snapped.
    MR. HOUSTON: I agree.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsubmitted that it was not wise for ship-owners and those who felt the importance of our sea commerce to minimise the necessity of a strong and powerful Navy.
    MR. HOUSTONsaid no one had more admiration for the Navy than himself; he had said nothing derogatory. What he said was that the Navy manœuvring in the dark was a menace to the mercantile marine, and he failed to see how that remark could be construed as derogatory to the Navy.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he was glad to know that the hon. Member and he were at one as to the importance of the Navy.

    1043
    The mover of the Motion had stated that the lighting of our coasts was a national duty which we could not neglect. That was a principle with which no one would disagree. It was quite obvious that as a great civilised Power, with a comparatively vast seaboard, we were bound to see to the proper lighting of our coasts. It did not follow, however, that for that lighting no charge was to be made either upon foreign ships which sought our coast or upon our own mercantile marine. Even though it were decided at some future time to reorganise the different bodies which now controlled the lighting of the coasts it by no means followed that Parliament would be prepared to place the whole of the cost of the service on the Imperial. Exchequer. ["What about the Navy?"] To require a contribution from the Navy would only he another way of making the general taxpayers pay, and, in his opinion, the great service rendered by the Navy to the mercantile marine was a good reason why His Majesty's ships should be exempted from the payment of light dues. The Navy was essential to our national existence; it was doubly essential to the existence of our over-sea trade and the maintenance of our mercantile marine. It rendered enormous services to the mercantile marine in subsidiary ways, such as the charting of the seas, giving notice of danger, supplying information, warning, and advice, which, in his opinion, amply discharged any liability it might otherwise have in the matter of light dues.
    It was argued that the practice of all nations was against ours in this matter; that the United States levied light dues on our shipping simply because we levied dues on American shipping, and that, inasmuch as many more British ships went into American ports than American ships came into British ports we, as a nation, were losers by the transaction, and that nothing but our insistence on these dues prevented the American Government from allowing our ships in free of all charges. That was an entire misapprehension. It was well known that considerable pressure was being brought to bear upon the authorities in America to alter their law adversely to the shipping interests in this country, and it was probable that in their determination to
    1044
    construct again a great mercantile marine the United States would have recourse to these dues and other measures, and that, whatever we might do, we should not be able to secure the remission of the dues. I But if the American Government were convinced that in other countries except England the lighting of the coasts was a national charge, how was it that those countries had not received the remission of dues in America which this country was to earn? Only two countries in the world—Holland and Denmark—had yet succeeded in convincing the United States Government that they gave the kind of reciprocity, the absolute freedom, which the United States demanded, and the only port of any size for ships sailing from, which entered the harbours of America without paying dues, was Rotterdam. Only two countries in the world—Holland and Denmark—obtained that remission, which showed that, if light dues were not charged in other countries, there was an equivalent of them under some other name. We might abolish these light dues to-morrow and still we should in no way have qualified for freedom in the American ports. The remission of dues accorded by the American Government was not merely accorded to the ships of the country where no dues prevailed, but it was accorded to all ships sailing from those ports. By remitting these dues they would be remitting a charge one-third of which was paid by foreign vessels. Therefore, if they secured this reciprocal treatment in America a great portion of the advantage would go, not to British ships alone, but to foreign ships sailing from British ports.
    Reference had been made to the necessity for developing the Port of London, and a comparison had been drawn between what was now being done at Antwerp and what was being done in the Port of London, and a very gloomy future had been predicted for London unless they awoke to their responsibilities and to the keener competition to which they would be subjected in the future. He would remind the hon. Member for Liverpool that the Government had not been unmindful of the interests of the Port of London, because they had proposed legislation on the subject, although it had not

    1045
    met with that amount of good will and assistance which was necessary in order to enable it to pass into law. This reference to the Port of Antwerp, if the hon. Member would excuse him for saying so, was really a matter of prejudice like many other questions which had been mentioned in the debate, and it really had no bearing upon the proposition before them. These matters appeared to him to have been introduced to colour the picture, and affect their minds by striking their imaginations, and to put the House generally into a mood to do something without regard to the National Exchequer.
    It was said that the management of the lighthouse authorities was wasteful and extravagant. He admitted that if we were establishing a lighthouse authority at this moment it was unlikely, that it would be constituted exactly as Trinity House was constituted at present, but the lighthouse authorities of the: country had discharged their responsible; functions with credit to themselves and to the country. If there was unnecessary delay—and the Board of Trade did not hold that view—he did not believe it would be possible to accelerate the rendering of the accounts by any change in the incidence of the charge or of the authorities who administered the fund. In regard to the complaint that the lighthouse authorities were unnecessarily extravagant in relation to new works, a mere comparison of cost as between one country and another was a very imperfect test of extravagance, our own coast being a very difficult coast to light as compared with that, for example, of France. Local lights being in a more sheltered position than those under the national authorities, it was obvious that the capital cost and the cost of maintenance must be greater in the case of the latter. It would be of use to the Board of Trade if his hon. friend placed such information as he possessed at their disposal to enable them to investigate. He did not underrate the advantage of the Advisory Committee, but the Advisory Committee were not always right. They sometimes declared that certain lights were not necessary when those with more immediate knowledge declared them to be absolutely necessary. He could not help thinking
    1046
    that the origin of the criticisms directed against the lighthouse authorities was not so much a general dislike of those authorities as the dislike of the shipping community to be called upon to pay lighthouse dues; and that if the dues were transferred to the Exchequer the desire would be not to restrict the lights, but to multiply them at every point around the coast. His opinion, after hearing the case presented to him against the present lighthouse authorities, was that whatever they might say as to the anomalies of their constitution, it could not be contended that they had done their work otherwise than well. With the experience he had had of Government administration and of the kind of pressure that was brought by local and sectional interests upon Government Departments for increased expenditure, and upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer for grants from the public purse, he could not believe for one moment that if this charge were transferred to public expenditure there would be any economy secured; on the contrary, he believed that there would be a great increase in the cost.
    He did not agree with hon. Members who had spoken that this was an unfair burden to impose upon the shipping industry. He did not believe that a small House like the one he was addressing represented correctly the feeling of the country upon this question, nor did he believe that the House in its corporate capacity would as lightly vote this increased charge upon the taxpayer as those hon. Members who had assembled to support the Motion that evening. During the greater portion of the time since he had been Chancellor of the Exchequer he had been lectured first from his own side, and then by hon. Gentlemen opposite, because the public expenditure was so high, and he had been called upon to cut it down. He had been told that he had no right to allow all these heavy financial responsibilities to be thrown upon the House, that it was his duty to reduce expenditure, and that if he would do that the House would support him. At any rate, speaking for the Government, he could not consent, in the present state of the national finances,

    1047
    to the transfer to the taxpayers of the country at large of this burden from the shipping industry, which, in spite of bad times now and again, was a prosperous and expanding industry, and if the Motion were pressed to a division he should vote against it.
    SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid that as an economist perhaps he would be allowed to say a few words upon this subject. They had been constantly told in the House and in the Press that the expenditure of the country was too high and that steps should be taken to reduce it. He should have thought that when a proposal was made to place a charge of £500,000 upon the taxpayers of the country they would have had a larger number of Members present to listen to the arguments and to ascertain if there were any just grounds for incurring such a heavy expenditure. At the present moment there was no one present in the House except Members who were directly interested in the shipping industry—[Cries of "No"], so that if the Motion were carried it would be carried by those who, if it were acted upon, would benefit by it. This was a protectionist Motion of the worst kind supported by Liverpool men and others who called themselves free-traders. If this proposal in regard to light dues were accepted, it would mean the placing on the taxpayers of the country a charge to promote the prosperity of a particular industry. He should like to know where they were going to stop if they did that. The shipping industry had, on the whole, during the last twenty years been extremely prosperous and he did not believe it wanted any extraneous aid. Even if it were admitted that industries in a bad state should be helped from national resources, he did not think that the shipping industry was one that came within that category. What was to prevent them from asking for payment of harbour dues next? He sincerely hoped that hon. Members would pause before they committed themselves to expenditure of this kind. No argument whatever had been brought forward in support of the proposal except that it would help the shipowning industry.
    1048
    The expenditure of the country was very great, and it would be inopportune to place on the National Exchequer a charge which the shipowning industry was well able to bear.
    MR. RENWICKsaid that, so far from this being an exclusively shipowners' Motion, it had been unanimously supported for years by the Associated Chambers of Commerce, whose members were drawn from all parts of the country, and not from seaports alone. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had put the case very fairly before the House except in one particular. One important point which the right hon. Gentleman did not state was that 50 per cent, of the ships which benefited by our lights never entered British ports, and never paid a penny towards the upkeep of the lights. It was the duty of this country to light its own coasts, and if it did not do so there would be an outcry throughout the whole civilised world. He maintained that it was the duty of every civilised State to light its own coasts, and that was all the shipowners asked the Government to do in regard to our coasts. He did not dispute the statement of the hon. Member for Peckham that the shipping industry had been prosperous during the past twenty years, but he would remind the House that shipowners had come there on former occasions and asked that the State should carry out the duty it ought to perform. They said farther that if they must pay these dues they were entitled to representation on the body that carried out the work. Trinity House was an ancient corporation and out of date. Shipowners who paid the light dues ought to have a voice in the expenditure of the money. They had what was called a consultative representation on the board, but they had no vote. If they were entitled to be consulted, they ought to have a voice as to how the expenditure was to be carried out. A Committee which was appointed to inquire into the subject reported that not more than £60,000 a year should be spent on lighting the coasts—but, notwithstanding that, upwards of £100,000 was paid at present for that purpose.
    SIR ROBERT ROPNERSaid that when this question was last discussed in the House the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that the Royal Navy rendered such service to shipowners that it should not be taxed for coast lighting. The right hon. Gentleman argued that trade had benefited by the Navy, but he seemed to confound trade with the ship-owning interest. They all admitted that general trade had benefited from the service rendered by the Navy; but they maintained that because general trade had benefited the whole nation should contribute the light dues, and that shipowners as a class should not be called upon to pay for these lights. The Chancellor of the Exchequer also stated that although foreign countries might not charge light dues in that shape to shipowners, they charged them indirectly as tonnage dues. The fact was that on the Continent, generally speaking, harbours and docks belonged to the different Governments, and possibly the tonnage dues covered the cost of lighting the coasts. But the tonnage dues did not amount to anything like what the shipowners of this country were called upon to pay for harbour dues alone. It was well known that the docks in this country belonged to private owners and that they had to be managed in such a way as to make a profit, and consequently higher charges were made than at places where the docks were owned by
    the Governments. If the dues were unjust to British shipowners they were also unjust to foreign shipowners, because on the Continent shipowners were not called upon to pay for the lighting of the coasts, except in two or three small countries, such as Sweden and Norway. If we continued to call upon foreign shipowners to pay these dues, their Governments might penalise our ships in their countries. He instanced what our Government had done in regard to the load-line when a communication on the subject was made by the German Government, as showing what could be accomplished by the action of a foreign Government. When the Suez Canal shares were bought by our Government they cost £4,000,000, and now they were worth £33,000,000. It was part of the purchase agreement that the return on the capital should not exceed 25 per cent., but, in spite of that, 28 per cent was being paid. The steamers frequenting the Suez Canal were mostly British, and, therefore, a sum of probably over £500,000 was being exacted from the pockets of the British shipowners in that way. It was unfair to levy light dues on the shipowner alone when all classes benefited by the lighting of the coasts.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes, 66; Noes, 62 (Division List No. 199.)

    AYES.

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne

    Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Black, Alexander William

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Lough, Thomas

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Burt, Thomas

    Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah

    Buxton, N E (York, NR, Whit by

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

    Caldwell, James

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Murphy, John

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk.

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Jones, D. B. (Swansea)

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North

    Lamont, Norman

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Cremer, William Randal

    Langley, Batty

    Pilkington, Colonel Richard

    Delany, William

    Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Denny, Colonel

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

    Plummer, Sir Walter R.

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall

    Rankin, Sir James

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Rea, Russell

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Sullivan, Donal

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Renwick, George

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

    Tuff, Charles

    Charles M'Arthur and Sir

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffeld

    William Holland.

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col T. Myles

    Wilson, Chas. H. (Hull, W.)

    Shackleton, David James

    Wilson, John (Falkirk)

    NOES

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

    Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin&Nairn

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Allen, Charles P.

    Cray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Purvis, Robert

    Balcarres, Lord

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

    Harwood, George

    Ridley, S. Forde

    Balfour, Rt, Hn G. W. (Leeds)

    Higham, John Sharp

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas Thomson

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. Hicks

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Bond, Edward

    Jessel, Captain Herb. Morton

    Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

    Kennaway, Rt Hn. Sir J. H.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J A (Wore.

    Keswick, William

    Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes)

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Davenport, William Bromley

    Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

    Thorburn, Sir Walter

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Tomlinson, Sir W. Edw. M

    Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

    Martin, Richard Biddulph

    Tuke, Sir John Batty

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Milvain, Thomas

    Valentia, Viscount

    Elibank, Master of

    Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants

    Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir Wm. H.

    Fellowes, Rt Hn Ailwyn Edw.

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

    Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Whiteley, H (Ashton und Lyne

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Percy, Earl

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

    Forster, Henry William

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Frederick Banbury and Mr.

    Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Skewes-Cox.

    FOREIGN TRAWLERS REGULATlON BILL.
    [SECOND READING.]
    Order for Second Reading read.
    MR. BLACKsaid he begged to move the Second Reading of the Foreign Trawlers Regulation. Bill, the object of which was to protect certain portions of our foreshores from trawling. The Bill was not introduced for the purpose of protecting any individual industry, but to provide nurseries for fish, and so increase the food supply of the people of this country. Under the by-law passed some years ago, the Moray Firth was closed against British trawlers, but foreign trawlers still came in and this Bill was intended to put an end to their depredations. He begged to move.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid that the object of this Bill was, curiously enough, exactly the same as that which had just been disposed of. It was protective. It was extraordinary that when a particular industry in which an hon. Member's constituency was interested was affected all his ideas of free trade and free competition vanished. This Bill affected the food of the people.
    Notice taken that forty Members were not present; House counted, and forty Members not being present,
    The House was adjourned at twenty minutes before Twelve of the clock till To-morrow.