Sitting of 6 June 1905

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have not been complied with, viz.:—Workington Harbour and Dock Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

  PRIVATE BILL PETITIONS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz.:—South Barracas (Buenos Ayres) Gas and Coke Company Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
  Accrington Corporation Bill; Aylesbury Gas Bill; Croydon Gas Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  Worcestershire County Council (Bridges) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Clacton Improvement Bill [Lords]; Dearne Valley Railway Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Newry, Keady, and Tynan Light Railway Bill (changed from "Ulster and Connaught Light Railway Bill"). As. amended, considered.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]
  North British Railway (General Powers) Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Mansfield Corporation Bill [Lords]; Whitby Urban District Council Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Bootle Corporation Bill. Ordered, That, in the case of the Bootle Corporation Bill, Standing Order 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
  London County Council (General Powers) Bill. Ordered, That, in the case of the London County Council (General Powers) Bill, Standing Order 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
  (King's Consent, and Prince of Wales' Consent, as Duke of Cornwall, signified). Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 17) Bill, Read a second time, and committed.
  Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill (by Order). Read the third time, and passed.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP E).
  Sir HENRY AUBREY-FLETCHERreported from the Committee on Group E of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Wednesday, the 21st June, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1)Bill;
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  Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill; Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill, without Amendment.
  Stockport Corporation Bill; South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill, with Amendments.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to regulate and restrict the wearing of Naval and Military Medals and Decorations." [Naval and Military Medals Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Alice Edith Donovan, the wife of Daniel Augustine Donovan, with the said Daniel Augustine Donovan, and to enable her to marry again; and for other purposes."[Donovan's Divorce Bill [Lords].
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers on the Administrative County of London and District Electric Power Company." [Administrative County of London and District Electric Power Company Bill [Lords].
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to enable the Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the City and County of Newcastle-upon-Tyne to purchase by agreement the undertaking of the Scots-wood Bridge Company; to provide for the composition by the several local authorities, interested of the tolls now leviable by the said Bridge Company and of the toll known as the Thorough or Great Toll now leviable by the New castle Corporation and the extinction of those tolls respectively; to provide for an increase in the public library rate: and for other purposes." [New castle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill [Lords.]
  And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board to make new waterworks; and for other purposes." [Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill [Lords.]
  Donovan's Divorce Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; to be read a second time.
  Administrative County of London and District Electric Power Company Bill

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  [Lords]; Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill [Lords]; Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Wate; Board Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  CHARTERED SOCIETIES BILL.
  Petition from London, against; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Deskford, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  STREET BETTING BILL.
  Petition from West Ham, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SUNDAY TRADING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition of the United Free Church of Scotland, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of Twenty-third Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland, being for the year 1904. Part II. Salmon Fisheries [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PRISONS (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of Rule made by the Secretary for Scotland appointing Police Cells at Inveraray, in the county of Argyle, to be a legal prison for the detention of prisoners for a period not exceeding three days before or during or after trial, and of convicted prisoners for a period not exceeding seven days from the date of conviction [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 192.]
  IRON ORE DEPOSITS.
  Copy presented, of Reports on Iron Ore Deposits in foreign countries, compiled at the Board of Trade from information collected by His Majesty's Diplomatic and Consular Officers [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY.
  Copy presented, of Forty-eighth Annual Report of the Trustees of the National Portrait Gallery, 1904–5 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  IRISH LAND ACT, 1903.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated May 30th, 1905, directing that the Trust Fund Accounts of the Public Trustee, under The Irish Land Act, 1903, shall be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (ACCOUNTS AND ESTI MATES, 1905–6).
  Copy presented, of Explanatory Memorandum by the Secretary of State for India [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS.
  Ordered, That the several Accounts and Papers which have been presented to the House in this session of Parliament relating to the Revenues of India be referred to the consideration of a Committee of the Whole House.—(Mr. Secretary Brodrick.)
  Resolved, That this House will, upon Wednesday, June 21st, resolve itself into the said Committee.—(Mr. Secretary Brodrick.)

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.
  Return ordered, "of the number of Questions put to Ministers and others during the Sessions 1893 to 1904, inclusive (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 101, of Session 1893)."—(Mr. Henniker Heaton.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  The Medical Council.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the fact that under Section 7 of the Medical Act of 1886, the representation of medical practitioners on the Medical Council is confined to three representatives for England, one for Scotland, and one for

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  Ireland, and that during the interval of nineteen years medical practitioners have increased in number in England alone by 7,000. will he state whether the Medical Council have considered, the expediency of representing to the Privy Council the desirability of increasing the number of representatives of medical practitioners on the Medical Council as provided for under Section 10, Sub-section (c), of the Medical Act.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I am informed that this question was considered by the General Medical Council last month, and on no less than six other occasions during the previous fifteen years, but that each time the decision of the council has been that it is inexpedient to make any representation to the Privy Council.

  Shop Hours Act, 1904—Closing Orders.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state in what localities closing orders have been made under the Shop Hours Act, 1904, specifying in each case the class of shops to which the order applies and the hours of closing which have been fixed; and how many proposed orders are now under the consideration of the Home Office.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) Two local authorities, viz., the town councils of Barnsley and Swansea, have made closing orders and submitted them for confirmation. Both the orders apply only to barbers' and hairdressers' shops. Their provisions cannot be finally considered and confirmed until the expiration of the month allowed for the receipt of objections. In thirteen other cases (eleven boroughs and two counties) draft orders at various stages of the procedure under the Act have been submitted for preliminary consideration, and the authorities have been or are being furnished by the Home Office with provisional observations and suggestions. These are the particulars for England and Wales only. In Scotland and Ireland the Act is not administered by my Department.

  Refusal of Certificates for Weighing Machines of British Moneyweight Calculating Scale Company.
  MR. HARWOOD: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he is aware that certificates have been refused, without reason assigned, to weighing machines of the British Moneyweight Calculating Scale Company, Limited, many of which had been sold in this country before the passing of the Weights and Measures Act of 1904; and whether he will prevent inspectors from forbidding the use of such scales, when stamped and correct, until a reason has been assigned for the refusal of such certificates and there has been time to go into the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) Certificates were refused under Section 6 of the Weights and Measures Act, 1904, to weighing machines submitted by the company to which the hon. Member refers, and the company were informed of the grounds of refusal. The question whether machines of the same pattern which were stamped by inspectors of weights and measures before the decision of the Board of Trade can still be lawfully used is one upon which the Board, are now being advised.

  Stranding of the "Syren."
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether it is intended to hold an official inquiry into the stranding of the torpedo destroyer "Syren" on a rock to the east of Bere Island.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) A court-martial has already been held in the ordinary course.

  Discharges from Portsmouth Dockyard.
  MR. CROOKS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty the number of men who have been discharged from Portsmouth Dockyard since 1st January, 1905, the number of men it is intended to discharge during the present financial year, and the number of men who are under notice or have been discharged who have qualified by length of service to claim a bonus, and the total amount payable on such claims.

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  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The number of men discharged since 1st January, 1905, is 779, of whom 406 were discharged on reduction. The number of men it is at present intended to discharge during the financial year is 1,054. In addition it is estimated that natural wastage during the same period will result in a further reduction of 540. The number of men discharged or under notice of discharge, who are entitled to gratuities, is 201, and the total amount of these gratuities is £6,118 7s. 5d.

  Inspection of Wines and Spirits in Bond.
  MR. CROOKS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, under the Customs regulations regarding wines and spirits in bond, a qualified cooper must be employed in such stores, and whether the whole of the casks must be inspected at least once a month to ensure that there shall be no waste or leakage.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The reply to both the points raised by the hon. Member is in the negative.

  Maximum Salary of Operating Telegraphists.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a, number of operating telegraphists in the Central Telegraph Office are in the possession of papers issued by the Civil Service Commissioners which hold out prospects of obtaining a salary of £190 per annum; and whether, seeing that a number of these men have been kept at a salary of £160 per annum for several years, and that he has now decided to promote forty men from £160 to the higher salary, he will state the number of men left who were promised the prospect of £190 per annum, and when this prospect is likely to be realised by them.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I have already fully dealt with this matter in my Answers to the hon. Member's Questions of the 2nd† and 7th† March and 5th† and 17th§ April, and I can only add that the prospects of the tele-
  † See (4) Debates, cxlii., 183, 561.
  ‡ See (4) Debates, cxliv., 441.
  § See (4) Debates, cxlv., 289.
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  graphists are now much better than they were during the period when the notice; referred to were issued.

  Telegraphist Wilson, of Clones, and the Postal Telegraph Clerks' Association.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the treatment of a telegraphist named Wilson, stationed at Clones; by the local authorities because of his connection with the Postal Telegraph Clerks' Association, of which ho is branch secretary; whether he is aware that the local postmaster has stated that he intends to punish Wilson for belonging to this society; and that, since a meeting held on Sunday week, the postmaster used offensive language to Wilson at the counter, in presence of the public, in connection with the work of the association; and whether, seeing that previous Postmasters - General have stated that the staff possess the right to combine, he will direct that this treatment of Wilson should cease.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I have at present no such information as enables me to answer this Question. I will make further inquiry and communicate with the hon. Member.

  Regulations for Export of Tobacco and Cigars.
  MR. STANHOPE: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, while British exporters of tobacco are permitted to export small parcels abroad direct from the factory the Revenue authorities refuse to allow them to supply cigars for use on board during the voyage, unless goods are deposited by them in bulk in a bonded warehouse and then repacked; and whether those regulations of the Revenue authorities can be relaxed, in view of the fact that there is a public desire to receive these cigars direct from the factory, and that the general law does not appear to be binding in such circumstances.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I have received several communications on this subject and am considering

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  whether it is possible without fresh legislation to giant, the permission desired by traders.

  Indian Viceroy's General Earthquake Fund.
  SIR SEYMOUR KING: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that the home subscriptions to the Viceroy's General Earthquake Fund have not yet reached the sum of £5,000, he will consider the advisability of issuing a special appeal to the British public for further help.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The nature of the appeal to be made was decided on the recommendation of the Governor-General, and public attention has been repeatedly called to the fund. I fear that there would be no advantage at this stage in taking further measures. The list of subscriptions remains open, and I trust that additional contributions may be received.

  Indian Army Reorganisation—Lord Kitchener's Proposals.
  MR. BUCHANAN: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, before the Indian Budget comes on, he will issue to Members Papers containing the full proposals of Lord Kitchener as regards Army organisation in India, distinguishing those which have been adopted by the Government of India and those which are still under discussion, also correspondence that has passed on the subject between, the Government of India and the Secretary of State.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am not in a position to lay upon the Table the Papers asked for by the hon. Member for East Perth. Some of the proposals made by Lord Kitchener are still in an incomplete stage and the details are not of a character which it would he advantageous to disclose. In the discussion of the Financial Statement for 1905–6 in the Council of the Governor-General of India, the member in charge of the Military Department said with regard to this—" It will be understood that in questions affecting mobilisation the military authorities are unwilling to publish more detailes than is absolutely necessary,
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  and the members of this Council will not I am sure, press us for information which it would be undesirable to give."

  Southern Nigeria Proclamation, No. 15, of 1903.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of Stale for the Colonies whether the provisions of the Southern Nigeria Proclamation, No. 15, of 1903, empowering the High Commissioner to require chiefs to clean the rivers and creeks or to repair the roads in their districts, and imposing compulsory labour for this purpose on all able-bodied men and women, under penalty of fine or imprisonment, have been put into operation; if so, whether any remuneration has been paid to the chiefs; whether any part of such remuneration has been received by the natives employed; and whether similar requirements for compulsory labour exist in any other British colony or protectorate.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The proclamation referred to by the hon. Member has been put into operation. The proclamation does not impose compulsory labour, but regulates the compulsory labour existing under the tribal system. It also regulates the penalties for evading labour, substituting specific sentences for the former arbitrary punishments, which included flogging and mutilation. I understand that certain chiefs have received payments on account of work done of the character contemplated in the proclamation. The Government deals directly only with the chiefs, and I cannot say whether any part of such remuneration has been received by the natives employed. The requirement of labour for public purposes, including the clearing of rivers and repair of roads, is part of the customary tribal system throughout West Africa, and has been regulated by statute in several of the British colonies and protectorates.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    The Gold Coast Legislative Council and Public Works in that Colony.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I am to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is

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    aware that the Legislative Council of the Gold Coast Colony passed an Ordinance on 1st May, 1905, authorising a loan of £1,400,000 for railways and other works; and will he say whether all the unofficial members of the Council formally protested against the passing of the Ordinance; and, if so, for what reason; and whether the execution of the works contemplated in the Ordinance will be thrown open to tender or will be entrusted to the Crown Agents.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON, Warwick and Leamington): The Ordinance referred to by the hon. Member was passed on 1st May. All the unofficial members of the Legislative Council formally voted against its passing, and I understand from the Governor's despatch reporting the matter that whilst they were unanimously in favour of the proceeds of the loan being applied in carrying out the works contemplated in the Ordinance, their voting against it was intended as a protest against those works being carried out under the same system as that which had been followed in constructing the Sekondi-Kumassi Railway. I am unable to state at present whether the execution of any of the works will be thrown open to tender or undertaken by the Government. In no case is the execution of public works in the Colonies entrusted to the Crown Agents.

    Report of the Brussels Sugar Convention.
    MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the Report on the late session of the Brussels Sugar Convention, held in the beginning of April of this year, will be distributed.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): The Papers are now in the hands of the printer and will, I hope, soon be ready for distribution.

    Duties on German Exports.
    MR. BRIGHT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade upon what percentage of her exports in 1904 Germany has, under the commercial treaties based on the new tariff, obtained reductions of duties from
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    other States; and upon what percentage of exports she has had to submit to increased duties.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW, Glasgow, Blackfriars): The particulars desired cannot be given, in the shape asked for, in answer to a Question, but the matter is engaging the attention of the Board of Trade, and an endeavour is being made to compile such statistics on the subject as the available information permits.
    MR. BRIGHT: When may we expect the information?
    MR. BONAR LAW: The compilation involves a great deal of labour and I cannot promise the result at an early date, but the work is being pushed forward as rapidly as possible.

    Prohibition of Imports of Spanish Sugar.
    MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade, with regard to the prohibition of the importation of Spanish sugar, if he will say what weight of sugar constitutes an appreciable quantity; and whether, seeing that this prohibition took place some two years after the condemnation of Spain by the Brussels Permanent Commission without any further action on the part of that body, the Government reserves to itself the right of suddenly excluding any sugar imports from condemned quarters, including the twenty countries dealt with by the Permanent Commission in October, 1904; and, if so, whether the trade has any safeguards against such proceedings.
    MR. BONAR LAW: I am not prepared to give a figure which will be universally applicable, the matter being one for consideration having regard to the circumstances of each case. It is the duty of His Majesty's Government, on the occurrence of an appreciable importation of sugar from a country reported by the Permanent Commission to grant a bounty, to take the measures prescribed by the Convention. The decisions of the Commission in October, 1904, to which reference is made, have been suspended or revoked on the appeal of His Majesty's Government.
    MR. LOUGH: Does that imply that, supposing that sugar is brought in from any of these twenty countries, there is no risk of its being prohibited in the same way as the sugar imported from Spain is prohibited?
    MR. BONAR LAW: It does imply that.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Do His Majesty's Government or the permanent officials in Brussels settle what weight of sugar constitutes an appreciable quantity?
    MR. BONAR LAW: That is left to His Majesty's Government.
    MR. LOUGH: So His Majesty's Government is solely responsible for the prohibition of Spanish sugar?
    MR. BONAR LAW: It is responsible in this sense, that it has done it and only done it in order to fulfil an undoubted obligation under the Brussels Convention.

    Aliens Bill—Government Amendments.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Government Amendments to the Aliens Bill will be placed upon the Paper.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's): Any Amendments to the Aliens Bill which the Government may have to propose will be placed on the Paper in ample time to admit of their being considered before the Bill is taken in Committee.

    Undetected Crime in England.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that, in connection with the 9,920 cases of crimes against property with violence committed in England last year, only 3,691 persons were apprehended; and whether any explanation can be offered of the failure of justice in so many cases.
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: The figures given by the hon. Member are correct,
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    but it does not follow that there is a failure of justice in any of these cases. The explanation is the very simple one that most of the burglars and housebreakers apprehended have each committed several offences—some of them many offences—before their apprehension.

    Threatening Letters in England.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state how many threatening letters were brought to the notice of the police in England during the past twelve months; and whether he can explain why the Criminal Statistics for England take no cognisance of this offence.
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I have no information of the number of threatening letters brought to the notice of the police. When they constitute a criminal offence they are entered under the appropriate head in the English Criminal Statistics, according to the nature of the offence, which depends on the nature of the threat.
    MR. MACVEAGH: What is the difference between a threatening letter in England and one in Ireland? In the latter country you class them all as outrages.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not rise out of the Question.

    Vagrancy Laws.
    MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the inadequacy of the vagrancy laws; and whether he is prepared to initiate legislation on the basis of labour colonies, such as at present obtains in Belgium.
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: A Committee, of which the right hon. and learned Member for the Ripen Division is Chairman, is now inquiring into the whole subject of vagrancy. The question of legislation must await the Report of that Committee.
    MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-CORE: And when may we expect the Report of the Committee?
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I cannot say but after we get it and have considered it there will be no delay in presenting it.

    Divorce Cases in the Royal Courts of Justice.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask Mr. Solicitor-General whether he can state the total number of divorce suits entered for trial in the London Courts during the past year; the number of cases which went to a hearing; the number and nature of decrees granted; the number of cases in which the King's Proctor intervened; and the number of cases in which his intervention was justified by results.
    THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs): Seven hundred and seventy divorce and other matrimonial suits were set down for trial during 1904, making, with 167 pending at the commencement of the year, a total of 937 suits for hearing. Of this number 771 were tried or otherwise disposed of in Court, the petitioners being successful in 698 cases. The decrees included 636 decrees nisi for dissolution of marriage, twenty decrees for judicial separation, twenty-three decrees nisi for nullity of marriage, eighteen for restitution of conjugal rights, and one decree in a suit for jactitation of marriage. During the year ending March 31st, 1905, the King's Proctor intervened in twenty-three cases. In eighteen of these cases the decrees have been rescinded by the Court, three are awaiting trial, and in one judgment has been reserved. In the remaining case the action of the petitioner which led to the intervention was shown to have arisen from an honest mistake as to the law, the intervention was not pressed, and the Court, in the exercise of its discretion, made the decree absolute.

    Llandecwyn School.
    MR. OSMOND WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the board of Education whether the Board has decided anything with regard to Llandecwyn School.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University): The Board have determined to hold a public inquiry with regard to the necessity of the Llandecwyn School. It was originally proposed to hold it on May 19th, but that date was inconvenient to the education authority, and it has now been arranged for Friday next, June 9th.

    Llanelltyd School.
    MR. OSMOND WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he has sent down an inspector to inquire into the condition of Llanelltyd School; and, if so, whether he has yet reported thereon.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: One of the Board's architects visited the school on Saturday last. His report has just been received.

    Base Coinage in Ireland.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many cases of coining or uttering base coin were brought to the knowledge of the police in Ireland during the past twelve months; how many of these cases were in Ulster; and how many of these in Belfast.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IREAND (Mr. WALTER LONG, Bristol, S.): In 1904 there were sixty-three cases, of which seventeen occurred in Ulster, and of the latter sixteen were in Belfast.

    Dreenavurrig.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board will undertake the construction of a road into the townland of Dreenavurrig from the public road leading from Sneem to Waterville, in view of the fact that the people of this town-land, where upwards of twenty families reside, have to bring their cattle and sheep and cars and donkeys by boat in order to reach a public road.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The Board have not received any application for

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    assistance in this matter. Their funds for public works have been allotted for the current year.
    MR. BOLAND: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this road was inspected two or three years ago?
    MR. WALTER LONG: Very likely. We have an enormous number of applications, but only a very small proportion can possibly be granted.

    Murder and Manslaughter Cases in Ireland.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that, of the twelve cases of murder and manslaughter in Ireland between December 1st, 1904, and April 19th, 1905, five took place in Ulster; and whether he can state in how many cases capital punishment was inflicted.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The twelve cases mentioned comprised eight cases of murder and four of manslaughter. Of the murders, two were in Ulster, three in Leinster, and three in Munster. Of the cases of manslaughter, three were in Ulster, and one in Connaught. Capital punishment was inflicted in one out of the eight cases of murder. It was imposed in two other cases, but the sentence was commuted to penal servitude for life.

    Prosecutions for Injury to Property in Ireland.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many prosecutions took place in Ireland during the last twelve months for injury to property; and what percentage of these cases took place in Ulster.
    MR. WALTER LONG: In 1904, sixty-eight persons were prosecuted for the indictable offence of malicious injury to property, and of these twenty-five or 36 per cent., were prosecuted in Ulster.

    Crimes Against the Person in Ireland.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that, of the sixteen cases of indecent assault in Ireland between 1st December, 1904, and 19th April. 1905, eight took place in the province of Ulster; and whether he can state in how many of the eight cases convictions were obtained.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The fact is as stated. In five out of the eight cases in Ulster convictions were had, and in the three remaining cases the accused are awaiting trial.

    Forgery in Ireland.
    MR. REDDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many prosecutions took place in Ireland last year for forgery or passing forged notes; and how many of these were in Ulster.
    MR. WALTER LONG: Twenty-six, of which six were in Ulster.

    Firearms in Ulster.
    MR. REDDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that of the six cases reported in Ireland of firing at the person between December 1st, 1904, and April 19th, 1905, three were in Ulster, he will cause more stringent steps to be taken in that province to enforce the law regarding the carrying of firearms.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The police authorities take all necessary measures to enforce the law in Ulster as in other parts of Ireland.

    Threatening Letters in Ireland.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I bog to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he Can state how many of the eighty-five threatening letters quoted in the recent Parliamentary Return of Outrages were anonymous; how many prosecutions followed; and how many convictions were obtained.
    MR. WALTER LONG: All the letters were anonymous in the sense that to none was the genuine signature of the writer appended. Some were signed "Captain Moonlight," or some other assumed name. In no case was the offender made amenable.

    Mr. Mayberry'a Kenmare Estate.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received any application for the sale of the estate of Francis G. Mayberry, near Kenmare, county Kerry; and, if not, if they are carrying on any negotiations for the reinstatement of Mrs. Sullivan and other evicted tenants on the estate.
    MR. WALTER LONG: No, Sir; and no opportunity has therefore arisen for dealing with the applications for reinstatement which have been received from four evicted tenants on the estate.
    MR. MURPHY: The right hon. Gentleman says no application has been received, but I wrote it myself and sent it.

    Grants to Technical and Agricultural Schemes in Kerry.
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland who made the representations on which grants were made to technical and agricultural schemes in the county of Kerry by the Congested Districts Board, for the year 1904–5.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The representations were made by the Department of Agriculture, by whom and the county council the schemes are arranged.

    Private Dolan, Royal Irish Rifles.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether Private Terence Dolan, No. 3654, of the Royal Irish Rifles, is entitled to a retiring allowance; and whether, in view of the fact that this man has had twelve and a quarter years service, he will have a special inquiry made into the circumstances of his case.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): This man was granted a free discharge, after serving twelve years and 167 days, without any claim to pension. The case is not one, therefore, for the special inquiry suggested.

    Valentia Island—Traders' Grievances.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether, with a view to obviating the loss which has fallen on traders in Valentia Island in consequence of the withdrawal of the Clyde Shipping Company's steamer, he will see that the Great Southern and Western Railway Company make proper provision for the storage and ferrying of goods from their terminus at Reenard.
    MR. BONAR LAW: The Board of Trade have no statutory powers of intervention in the matters to which the hon. Member refers, but they have been informed by the railway company, to whom a copy of the Question was forwarded, that whilst they afford every reasonable accommodation for the storage of goods at their stations they have no powers which would enable them to work a ferry to Valentia Island.

    The Amir.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that the Amir has seen erroneously described as Siraj-ul-millat-wa-ud-din in a Parliamentary Paper; whether he should have been set out as Siraju-'lmillat wa'd-din; whether he is aware that the name Habibulla is a contraction for Habibu Allah; and will the authorities see that this matter is at once put right to avoid further confusion.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. T. BALFOUR,): I am afraid that the hon. Member rather takes me out of my depth, but I am informed by competent persons that, while the transliteration of the Amir's title suggested by the hon. Gentleman may be somewhat more accurate than that habitually in use, the transliteration of his name is less accurate, and on the whole it is proposed to retain the present title.

    South American Navies.
    MR. CREMER: I besire to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that two of the South American Governments having by treaty agreed to settle by arbitration all disputes that may arise between them have, since the conclusion of such treaty, sold several of their war ships; will he state the number of ships that have beep so disposed of, and say if he has any information concerning the reported desire of the two Governments to sell the remainder of their ships of war; if he has no information upon the subject will he instruct the representatives of the British Government in those countries to obtain a copy of the arbitration treaty agreed to by the South American Governments, and also to ascertain what are the facts in regard to the disposal of their vessels of war; and will he lay such information upon the Table of the House.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The treaties to which the hon. Gentleman refers provided for a settlement of all controversies that do not affect the Constitution of their countries, and, if no other settlement is possible, by direct negotiation. The number of Chilian ships sold in this country was two, and of Argentine ships sold to Japan, two. His Majesty's Government are not aware of any intention to sell any others. I do not think that there is any objection to laying the terms of the treaty of arbitration on the Table of the House if the hon. Gentleman desires it.

    Treaties of Arbitration.
    MR. CREMER: I desire to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state how many European Governments have since this country and France concluded a treaty of arbitration, followed their example; whether the Convention held last year between the representatives of France and Great Britain was one of the results of the treaty; whether the Convention adjusted all the matters in dispute between the two countries; if any differences still exist between the two countries will he state what they are; and whether any steps are being taken to settle them.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I believe that twelve treaties have been negotiated though some of them have not as yet been ratified. There was no connection between the Anglo-French Agreement of 1904 and the treaty to which the hon. Gentleman refers, which was agreed to in 1903. There are no questions of controversy outstanding between France and this country which are likely to cause any interruption in the harmonious relations of the two Powers.

    Naval Disarmament.
    MR. CREMER: I desire to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is a ware of the feeling prevailing in France in favour of an arrest of armaments; and whether, having regard to the conclusions at which the Committee of Defence have arrived, that a successful invasion of this country is a practical impossbility, and that since the Committee arrived at that conclusion the Russian fleet has been destroyed, will he communicate with the French Government concerning the possibility of an understanding being arrived at between His Majesty's Government and the Government of France to discontinue their rivalry in armaments.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: We have no official knowledge of the hon. Gentleman's statement. With regard to the concluding part of his Question, the subject is hardly one which can be dealt with properly by way of Question and Answer.
    MR. CREMER: Do I understand the Prime Minister to state that the Government are not willing to enter into negotiations with France on the subject indicated in the Question?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have already answered a Question with regard to naval armaments, put to me by another hon. Member, and I pointed out then, as I may perhaps point out again, that the position of this country with regard to naval armaments is entirely different from that of any other country whatever. Naval armaments are to us an integral and absolutely necessary part of our national defence, and it does seem to me that it is for countries to whom fleets are not a necessary and integral part of their

    869
    national defence to commence negotiations rather than for us.
    MR. CRRMKR: But is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the strong feeling in France in favour of disarmament?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That is a question on which I have no official information. The hon. Member has quite as good an opportunity of forming a judgment as I have.

    PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.
    Third Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
    PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE.
    Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Lords to request that their Lordships will be pleased to give leave to Sir Henry Graham, K.C.B., the Clerk of the Parliaments, to attend to be examined as a Witness before the Committee of Public Accounts.—(Sir Arthur Hayter.)
  NEW BILL.
    PORT SANITARY AUTHORITIES EXPENSES BILL.
    "To remove doubts as to the legality of certain payments by Port Sanitary Authorities," presented by Sir Walter Plummer; supported by Sir Joseph Dimsdale, Sir James Joicey, Sir Henry Seymour King, Mr. William Lawrence, Mr. Herbert Lewis, Mr. David MacIver, Sir Edward Reed, Mr. Robson, Sir John Barrington Simeon, Mr. Charles Wilson, and Mr. Yerburgh; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 22nd June, and to be printed. [Bill 239.]

  MR. SPEAKER'S RETIREMENT.
  MR. SPEAKERaddressed the House, announcing his intention of retiring from the Chair, as followeth (all the Members being uncovered):—
  "Before the House passes to the Orders of the Day, perhaps it will allow me to occupy its time for a very few minutes. I have to announce to the
  870
  House that I propose to retire from the Chair to-morrow. That announcement is perhaps a formality. The fact is known already to all Members of the House, but it is a becoming and usual practice that when the Speaker retires from the Chair and gives up the office to which he was elected by this House, he should, if possible, personally intimate that intention to the House and state his reasons for retiring.
  "My reason for retiring I can deal with very briefly. On the 10th of April last I had completed ten years of service in this Chair, and, thanks to the blessing of almost uninterrupted good health during that period. I was able to attend punctually and diligently to the service of the House. Some six weeks ago I became unfortunately disabled from continuing that service, nor do I yet feel able to perform the duties in the continuous and satisfactory manner in which they ought to be performed by the occupant of this Chair. Under these circumstances I have thought it light not to trespass any further on the indulgence of the House but to retire from my office, bearing in mind (I may add) that I have arrived at an age at I which a wise man ought not to take too sanguine a view of his capacities for doing hard work and undertaking great responsibilities. Under these circumstances, therefore, I have thought it right to retire.
  "I will not disguise from my brother Members that it is to me a very hard and painful thing to sever my connection with this House, with all its interests, its friendships, and its associations. It is not merely that I am relinquishing a high and honourable office in the tenure of which I have always taken a great and not unnatural pride; it is that I am quitting an Assembly by which, by every part of which, and I might truly say by every Member of which, I have always been treated personally with the greatest courtesy and consideration—a courtesy and consideration which fill my heart with lasting gratitude.
  "I desire to take this opportunity of thanking the Clerks at the Table and the officials of the House for their local and efficient help to me in the discharge of my duties.

  871
  "Above all my thanks are due to the House itself, for the generous and traditional support which it has always accorded to me, a support without which the authority and the influence of the Chair could not exist.
  "I thank the House very sincerely for having allowed me to say these few farewell words."
  Whereupon Mr. A. J. Balfour and Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman severally addressed the House, as follows:—
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): It is with the greatest grief, Mr. Speaker, that the House will have heard both the declaration of your intention to resign the great office which you have held with such distinction and the reason which you have given for the relinquishment of that post. Many thoughts rise to one's mind, many words naturally rise to one's lips, but, as the House knows, this is not an occasion on which it would be in accordance with tradition nor would it in any way be proper for us to express the feelings which are shared by every man in this House, to whatever Party he may belong, or however long or short his experience may be of our deliberations; this is not an occasion on which it is proper for us to express to you what we think we have owed to you during the ton years of your service—of your ungrudging service. It is rather my duty on the present occasion to give notice to the House that I shall to-morrow, in accordance with tradition and usage, move two Resolutions. The first is as follows—
  "That the thanks of this House be given to Mr. Speaker for his distinguished services in this Chair for more than ten years, that he be assured that this House fully appreciates the zeal, ability, and impartiality with which he has discharged the duties of his high office through a period of unusual labour, difficulty, and anxiety and the judgment and firmness with which he has maintained its privileges and its dignities, and that this House feels the strongest sense of his unremitting attention to the constantly increasing business of Parliament and of the uniform urbanity and kindness which have earned for him the respect and esteem of this House."
  872
  So runs the first Resolution which I shall move to-morrow, and it will be received, I doubt not, with the unanimous assent of the House. The second Resolution will be as follows—
  "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying His Majesty that he will be most graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of his favour on the right hon. William Court Gully, Speaker of this House, for his eminent services during the important period during which he has with such distinguished ability and dignity presided in the Chair of this House, and assuring His Majesty that, whatever expenses His Majesty shall think fit to be incurred on that account, this House will make good the same."
  I am sure those Resolutions, which have been moved for many of your distinguished predecessors, will never be moved in a House more ready to receive them with cordiality and enthusiasm.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I willingly and cordially join in the expression of regret, deep and profound regret, which has fallen from the First Lord of the Treasury. We are all aware, as he has reminded us, that this is not an occasion upon which formal expression of the feelings of the House of Commons is given. Leaving that formal expression over to-day, it is open to us very briefly and lightly to express our personal feelings towards you, Mr. Speaker, after the long relations which have subsisted between us. It will be a grievous thing to us to miss your familiar presence in the Chair. We shall lose in you a friend to every Member of the House, and we are well aware that the same friendly, and I would say even affectionate, spirit prevails on your side towards all the Members of the House as we entertain towards you. But this informal occasion is not that upon which we can best express the feelings which we entertain towards you and towards the office which you have held so worthily and with so much dignity. I reserve, therefore, for my part until to-morrow the fuller expression of the feelings of those who sit on this side of the House.
  MR. SPEAKERthen retired from the Chair on the House resolving itself into Committee.

  SUPPLY [10th ALLOTTED DAY].
  considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1905–6.

    CLASS II.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £154, 925, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expanses of the Office of the Committee of Privy Council for Trade and Subordinate Departments, including a Grant in Aid."
    SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he desired to take that opportunity of discussing the question of the organisation of certain Government Departments, and especially that of the Board of Trade and of the Local Government Board. He had put down an Amendment to reduce the Vote, but he hoped he would get from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade such assurances as would render it unnecessary for him to press that Motion to a division. The primary object he had in view was to draw the attention of the Committee to the delay which had taken place in reference to a subject which the House had debated more than once, namely, the urgent desirability of appointing a Minister of Commerce and Industry. He did not think that it was necessary that he should reargue the desirability of such an appointment, because the House had on more than one occasion indicated its general assent to the principle of the proposition that, while they must, of course, have regard to the defences of the county and to its armaments, it was also their duty to take care of the interests of trade and commerce, for the protection of which those armaments were undoubtedly necessary. He, however, thought that, compared with some other nations, the amount of attention given to commercial questions by the
    874
    Government of this country was not so great as it ought to be, and he hoped that the time was coming, if it had not already arrived, when trade questions would excite more interest than had hitherto been the case, and this was eminently necessary if we desired to retain our commercial pre-eminence.
    Not only had the House indicated its strong desire that something in the shape of Departmental reorganisation should take place, but a Committee had sat upon the subject and had taken a large amount of evidence from representatives of chambers of commerce and others. That Committee had come to a conclusion which distinctly fortified his proposition. As other countries had special Departments and special Ministers of the highest rank and position for the purpose of giving individual attention to questions of trade, commerce, and industry, and also had organisations, through chambers of commerce and otherwise, which constantly placed at the disposal of those Ministers the most expert and latest information to enable them to deal with particular questions, he hoped that the Report of that Committee would at some early date be put into practical application, and that in addition some means would be devised—for which he believed there were now ample materials, through the Board of Trade Intelligence Committee—to enable a Minister of Commerce and Industry to have recourse to those means of information as to trade development which could scarcely fail to be of advantage in the administration of the Department. It had been stated that the effect of carrying out the Report in question would be chiefly to increase the salaries of the existing heads of the Board of Trade and of the Local Government Board, but he would remind the House that both existing Ministers had disclaimed any intention, if a change should be effected, of availing themselves of any pecuniary advantage. While he did not say that the political or Departmental status was necessarily connected with the question of salary, he was satisfied that the higher the status given to the Department of Trade, Commerce, and Industry, the greater would be its utility and influence, and the

    875
    greater would be the means at its disposal for promoting the commerce and industry of the country.
    What had they in the shape of a Board of Trade? They had, it was true, a President of the Board of Trade, who, generally speaking, but net always, was a Cabinet Minister. There was however, no Board at all. A Committee which dealt with this subject took evidence, which showed that no meetings of the Board had taken place for upwards of half a century. He thought that on the last occasion on which a meeting of the Board had taken place—it was a singular case of anachronism—it was represented by the Archbishop of Canterbury, who made his visit expressly for the purpose of advocating some improvement in the trade of Manchester. To-day the Board was composed not only of Archbishops and Bishops, but it included the Speaker of that House and also the Speaker of the Irish Parliament, a case of political obscurantism which it would be difficult to parallel.
    He would like to draw attention to the Report of a Committee peculiarly qualified to discuss this subject. It was a Committee presided over by the Earl of Jersey, and it included among its members the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University and one of the hon. Members for Oldham, of whose experience in cotton and other industries they had had evidence in the speeches he had made from time to time in that House. The Report of that Committee set forth that evidence was given before it by one of the Members for Manchester, the president of the Associated Chambers of Commerce and also by himself (the speaker) respecting other chambers of commerce, and that the evidence satisfied the Committee that the existing state of affairs was not satisfactory and was not conducive to the real interests of trade and commerce. The Report further pointed out that the Board of Trade never met, and that the responsibility for the conduct of its business rested solely with the President. Then it drew attention to the anomalies of the jurisdiction of the Board, which had to do with shipping, with railways, with labour disputes, and with many other matters. External foreign nego-
    876
    tiations, it was pointed out, relating to treaties and to Consular Reports were conducted really by the Commercial Department of the Foreign Office, and he was well aware that there was a difference of opinion as to whether such a subdivision of the duties in regard to trade and commerce should continue. The Committee further indicated their belief that the status of a Minister of Commerce in these days ought to be in every respect equal to that of a Secretary of State. Then their Report recognised the desirability of having a Minister of Commerce and Industry, and it urged that certain duties in relation to Consular appointments should be more or less conducted by the Board of Trade.
    There was another Committee, whose Report had not been acted upon, in relation to our Consular Service. It had urged that some improvement was highly necessary in the opportunities for training our Consuls, so as to enable them to gain special knowledge in commercial qualifications. That was a point in regard to which he thought it would be admitted there was room for reform. The whole tendency of that Committee's Report was to revert to the view expressed in the House on previous occasions, that we ought to think seriously about the reorganisation of the Board of Trade. It was the unanimous and frequently expressed opinion of chambers of commerce, not merely of the London. Chamber of Commerce but of all the chambers throughout the country, that this reform ought not to be longer delayed, and lie appealed to his hon. friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, whose practical knowledge and business acquirements were such as to justify them in expecting their appeal to be successful, to give them some assurance that the Report of the Committee would not lie in the pigeon-holes of the Department any longer, and to tell them that something was to be done forthwith to reorganise the Board of Trade, and to allocate more specifically the duties—the anomalous duties—which in many cases it performed, partly to the Home Office and partly to the Local Government Board, so that the Board of Trade might be strengthened for the performance of what ought to be its chief duty, namely,

    877
    to keep a watchful eye upon our commerce, and to aid and help, so far as Governments can help, private enterprise, and to aid the suggestion and performance of public works. The need for the performance of this latter duty he thought was strongly illustrated in the debate on the Port of London, in connection with which a state of affairs had arisen which induced many hon. Members to support the Bill presented to the House the other night, rather than that nothing at all should be done, in face of the strides made by the corporation and municipality and trading community of the Port of Antwerp where, at this moment, reforms were in process of execution which would cost upwards of £10,000,000. Those improvements would include the straightening of rivers by cutting off the bends, and so giving access of the best possible character to a port which was highly competitive with the ports of this country.
    There was another Report on this subject in regard to which also comparatively little had been done, and that was the Report of the Board of Trade Intelligence Committee. That Committee had now been in existence for five years. It had been largely official and Departmental, representing the Colonies and India, and other Departments of the State, and, according to his experience, it had proved of considerable advantage, for it had been the means of grouping into co-operative action scattered Departments which performed more or less commercial and trade duties, and in unifying their action in aid of our trade and commerce. It had also besides its more official members, distinctly representative members practically acquainted with, and engaged in, trade and commerce. Whatever it might have done or failed to do, he thought it would be acknowledged that the experiment, if he might so call it, of this Board of Trade Intelligence Committee had been of practical service, and had done a considerable amount of good, which would be increased now by reason of the removal of one of its principal offices into the City of London, where it was in close touch with the commercial community, and where it promised to render better service than it had rendered in the past. Its Report was
    878
    both useful and interesting. By supplying ordinary commercial information, and by answering questions which were most difficult to deal with, it had been able to give access to the most complete and latest information. He found also that it had responded to many thousands of inquiries on commercial matters, such as Customs duties, legalisation forms for the purpose of commercial travelling, openings for trade, statistical returns, sources of supply and prices, company legislation, trade-mark regulations and the like, and it had given a large amount of technical and statistical information to the commercial community.
    In addition to that, commercial missions had been established, and had sent representatives of commerce to Persia and Siberia. The latter country at the present moment was more or less in a state of anarchy owing to the war, but it was a great corn-growing field, which would, when peace was restored, very largely supplement our corn supplies. The Report made by that Commission confirmed these conclusions, and had placed them in possession of a very large amount of matter of a most useful and practical character. Take the butter trade, for instance. They learnt from the Report that large quantities of what had been known as Danish butter really came to us from Siberia. In regard to many other form of commerce information had been collected of an equally useful and practical character, and, through the Committee, it had been placed at the disposal of the commercial public. In addition to this a representative of this country had been appointed, who had the advantage of having been twice president of the Melbourne Chamber of Commerce, to act as visitant to Australia. He was on the point of visiting Australia and, no doubt, would find means or improving our commercial relations with that colony, relations which were amongst the most hopeful signs of the retention of our commercial prosperity.
    One of the most important duties of the Committee had been to examine and report in the most minute detail on the tariffs and commercial treaties entered into by various nations.

    879
    Whatever view one might take on the fiscal question generally, all would agree as to the desirability of having full information on this point. All would agree that we should know how many tariffs were designed, not merely to protect, but to exclude the products of other countries. All would agree it was desirable to know how extremely onerous and absolutely exclusive many of these tariffs were. There might or there might not be a remedy suggested, and there might be political considerations which outweighed other considerations, but the facts were well worth observing and when they found, as they had been doing, that the result of representations had been in many cases to modify the restrictions upon our trade and commerce it would be admitted that in this matter the Committee had acted with advantage. In his opinion, there were many cases in which commercial treaties might at this moment materially improve the trade of the country. And if we were told that such treaties were not, in the fullest sense of the term, in accordance with the principles of free trade, his reply would be that there never was a more beneficial commercial treaty than the Treaty of 1860 with France, which was negotiated by Mr. Cobden himself, and which doubled the volume of trade between the two countries almost in the course of a day. One of the least acceptable lessons which they had derived from the Commercial Intelligence Committee was the fact that comparatively little could be accomplished, even by friendly representations; indeed, in some cases they found that such representations had a tendency to maintain the restriction. One point had been made very clear—that we gained mainly and chiefly from concessions made to other nations rather than to ourselves. Here, at any rate, we got the benefit of what was not a complete instrument of satisfaction, but what, after all, was a great advantage, viz., the favoured-nation treatment. This, according to their experience, was a most important factor, and they got more through it than was to be gained by pointing out objections which were felt, but which by the other side were considered to be advantages and which frequently were strongly retained for that reason.
    880
    He repeated that a Committee which collected facts and statistics, which examined treaties, and which watched the progress of negotiations between the different countries affected by those treaties, was able to form conclusions as to possibilities in the matter of negotiation or retaliation which must be of extreme value, especially as they emanated from an impartial body. They had had in Portugal for the last 500 or 600 years, not only an ally, but a commercially friendly nation. He believed the first treaty of commerce ever made was made in the reign of Edward III. with Portugal, and it was a singular fact that there were only one or two countries in Europe in which we did not get favoured-nation treatment and one of those countries was Portugal. No doubt there might be political considerations in her case sufficient to outweigh historic action. But undoubtedly in Portugal we had a most benevolent neutral throughout the South African War. Our interests there were largely common, but there were dynastic and other considerations which were entitled to full weight. There were questions connected with the wine and cattle trades with regard to which Portugal had claims which were well worthy of attention and thorough examination. Still, as he had said, the singular fact remained that with Portugal, with which country we had great trade and commercial relations, and to which we and the world owed the over-sea route to and from India, which was the making of our commerce, we had no commercial treaty. He did hope that as a result of what had been done by the Intelligence Committee, our representations would be received in a most friendly spirit, and that negotiations would be successfully conducted which would place us and Portugal, our friend and ally, on the same terms as we enjoyed with other countries.
    He would like to point to one or two of the difficulties with which the Commercial Intelligence Committee had had to contend. In the first place he would like to ask his hon. friend whether it was the intention, as he believed it was, of the Government to continue this Committee in existence, and to strengthen its power for action by

    881
    making it more fully representative of the many trades of this country, so that it might be possible to focus in one centre the general practical commercial feeling of the country, apart altogether from anything in the shape of political or partisan feeling. In his opinion an impartial tribunal of that sort would be of the utmost advantage. In the next place this Commercial Intelligence Committee had hitherto been treated entirely as a consultative body, and in the Report to which he had made allusion a suggestion was thrown out that it might well be vested with more powers of initiative, at any rate to the extent of recommending to the Department commercial and other reforms which required an early solution—matters which, in the present-day methods of business, ought to be conducted with great despatch. In the past the Committee had lived upon almost nothing. They had had a magnificent grant at their disposal of perhaps £1,000 or £2,000 a year, but one of their last difficulties had been that when they had, by care and economy, accumulated a sum which they had hoped would enable them to carry out certain investigations in Australia, they found that owing to technical difficulties, the sum was no longer available. It was due to the Department to say it had promised that funds should be available for the purpose. He did not mention this by way of criticism, but he did hope that, having regard to what had been accomplished, the grant to the Committee would be materially increased. The House voted millions for destructive purposes; let it vote thousands for constructive purposes, especially to help and construct commerce. He hoped, too, the grant would not be disappointing in the future in the way of not being available when it was wanted. The present system, by which the savings of years could not be taken advantage of was not an economical one. It tempted a Committee to be spendthrift when it should be economical; and it did not encourage the husbanding of resources. In conclusion, he hoped the House would endorse, the view of the Committee that a Minister of Commerce and Industry should be appointed, and he trusted he should receive an assurance from the Secretary
    882
    to the Board of Trade that the Commercial Intelligence Committee would be placed on a wider basis, and receive more generous consideration at the hands of the Government.
    SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he supported the last speaker as he would like to see the position of the Board of Agriculture increased in importance in the same way as Sir Albert Rollit desired to see the Board of Trade treated. The Central Chamber of Agriculture desired to bring under the notice of the House the question of the want of weighbridges to be found at country stations. Of course these machines were provided at many large stations, but farmers and traders were constantly complaining of their absence from stations whence a good deal of agricultural produce was despatched The Central Chamber of Agriculture, acting on the advice of the late Mr. Hanbury, and in the interest of traders and agriculturists who thought they had reason to complain of their treatment by the railway companies, had oftered opposition to the Second Reading of the South-Eastern Railway Bill. It was a very invidious thing to have to do, but in the case of the South-Eastern Railway Company a blocking Motion had been put down to their Bill because of the deficiency of railway weighbridges When the question came to be discussed with the representatives of the company they declined to enter into negotiations on the matter, declaring that in so doing they were acting, he understood, on the advice of the Railway Association, which was very powerful in that House. It would, therefore, become necessary to fight the principle out in the House itself, and he was, therefore, bringing it before the Committee that day and asking the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he would put pressure on the different railway companies to induce them to provide weigh bridges where he, the Under-secretary, considered it reasonable.
    He would cite one or two cases where the difficulty existed. Swanley Junction had no weighbridge, yet it was the centre of a very great fruit industry, toes upon tons being dispatched to the London market. The fruit growers complained bitterly that they wove obliged to accept

    883
    whatever their salesman liked to send them, and that although they might send five tons they might only be credited with four and three quarters tons, and they had no remedy as they could not prove the weight dispatched from Swanley. It was the same with the manure which they purchased in large quantities in London. They had to accept the weights of the vendor, for they had no means of weighing the manure on its arrival. The same compliant was made by the nhabitants of Milverton in Somerset. The station there served an area with a population of about 2,500, and it did seem reasonable that a weighbridge should be provided, but the company refused to provide one although those interested were willing to pay a reasonable charge for the use of it. He hoped the Secretary to the Board of Trade would look into this matter, and would not content himself with expressing a piors opinion that weighbridges should be supplied, but that he would inquire into the matter himself and if necessary put pressure on the companies in the matter.
    There were also anomalies in the goods rates. On the North Somerset line, near Bristol—between that town and a station ten miles distant, corn was charged for at the rate of 2s. 7d. per ton. while the charge for cake was 3s. 4d. per ton. Both articles were conveyed in sacks, and he failed to see why such a difference was made in the charges. Complaints, too, had been made of the way in which owners' risks rates were being treated as regards milk in Buckinghamshire, and he hoped the hon. Gentleman would look into that matter, especially as when on a former occasion a like complaint was made against the Great Western Railway the matter was settled on fair terms. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would consider it his duty not merely to wait for complaints before taking action in regard to weighbridges, also that in matters of undue preference—even of the preference for the large against the small trader—his Department would look into the matter and take the initiative, without waiting to be asked to move. He begged to propose a reduction of the Vote by £100.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A (Salaries) be reduced by £100."—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
    SIR GILBERT PARKERcalled attention to an illegality or at least an invalidity in a regulation issued by Trinity House in reference to pilotage in the Thames Channel. In effect this regulation limited the number of firms which might employ pilots for ships passing out of the river. The Board of Trade had a revisory power over such regulations which, in this case, apparently had not been exercised, and the conditions of the Merchant Shipping Act had not been fulfilled. It was perfectly clear that any such regulation must first be made by alteration of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, by by-law. Secondly, that that by-law must be approved by Order in Council. Thirdly, that that by-law must be approved by the Board of Trade and issued in the terms prescribed by the Board of Trade. None of these conditions had been fulfilled by the licensing authority—Trinity House. Of course they must not make too much of an act which he considered ultra vires. but the power had been exercised by Trinity House. The relations between the pilots and Trinity House in the past bad been of the most amicable and satisfactory character; but if these men were to be deprived of their livelihood by an act of the Board of Trade that was all the more reason why they should be sheltered by the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act. He did not wish to enter into the merits of the case; but only to enter his objection to the regulation being signed without the proper authority laid down by law. Trinity House had in its mind, no doubt, what might be called the distribution of the shipping to pilots. There were certain pilots who, piloting for two or three firms, earned £1,200 a year; but there were other pilots piloting also for two or three firms who could only make £400 or £500, and even as little as £300. Therefore a regulation of this sort was open to a great deal of contention and criticism. The pilotage regulations of 1854, which were reaffirmed by the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894 said—
    "The present system of selection of their own pilots by owners, masters, and agents should be left undisturbed."
    Now, the new regulation of Trinity House had broken, without full authority, that regulation imposed by Act of Parliament. He did not know whether

    885
    the new regulation had been made by the tacit consent of the Board of Trade; but out of sixty-four pilots forty-nine had petitioned Trinity House against it on the merits, and that petition had not met with favour. He urged the Secretary to the Board of Trade to make careful inquiry into this particular instance of the exercise of authority which he believed to be invalid.
    MR. MCKENNAsaid that in the last fiscal Blue-book figures were given as to the condition of employment in Germany. Anything he had to say was not by way of criticism of the work done by the officials of the Board of Trade, who arranged their information with admirable care and knowledge. But in this particular set of figures in the Blue-book they had not sufficiently inquired into the full conditions of German employment before giving them to the public. It appeared from these figures that in a series of trades the percentage of unemployed in Germany was 1.9, which represented a total of unemployed of 8,600 out of a membership of the unions of 446,000. These figures were so startling that he was surprised that the Secretary to the Board of Trade should have accepted them without further inquiry. These figures could not be compared with the corresponding figures published by the English trade unions. In the first place in England the percentage of unemployed was based on the number of persons who received unemployed benefit who were members of the unions. But he was informed that in the German unions before a person became entitled to unemployed benefit he had to be contributor to the unemployed fund for four years. That meant that only persons of steady character were likely to contribute to the benefit fund for four years. It followed that the figures in the German Return referred only to the persons who had contributed for four years and not to all the persons who were out of employment. The figures for Germany and England could not, therefore, be properly compared. Next, in England unemployed benefit was usually given after a workman had been out of employment for three consecutive
    886
    days; while in Germany it was not given until the workman had been out of employment for seven consecutive days. Of course a larger number of men would be included in England as unemployed than in Germany.
    Again, there was a difference between the systems in the two countries. In England the general rule was that there was a minimum wage and the effect of that was that when trade was bad employers had to dismiss men because they could not put them on short time or on a lower wage. In the mining industry, colliers, when trade was slack, worked only three or four days instead of the full week; but, in the metal trades the practice was to dismiss the men. In Germany the minimum wage did not exist, with the result that the German employers always kept their men in employment, but at a reduced number of hours or days in the week. There had been a Report issued that morning which showed that in the glass industry in England since the great strike of 1901, a half remained unemployed; but in Germany, in order to obviate the necessity of reducing the staff, short time was worked. The consequence of all this was that the figures given by the Board of Trade in regard to Germany could not be compared with the figures given by the English trade unions. When they turned to inquiries made in Germany, a totally different set of figures was given; and the best authority put the proportion of unemployed in four trades as follows: book printers 8·2; stonemasons 9·4; glove-workers 6·6, and bakers 7·6; and a census of the unemployed in Leipsic showed that in bad times the number was 13, 14, and 15 per cent., which was higher than they had ever seen in this country. He was sure an investigation would disclose a wholly different result from the figures quoted recently by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade; and they were entitled to ask him, in spite of his views on the fiscal question, to give a most impartial consideration to this matter.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW, Glasgow, Blackfriars)said that although his views on the fiscal

    887
    question were well known they gave him added responsibility regarding the figures issued by his Department. With reference to this particular question, he would say that when he looked into the figures they seemed so surprising that he thought there must be some explanation of which he was not aware. He spoke to the head of the statistical department, who mentioned one or two influences which might have affected the result. One was that the rate of relief was so small in Germany that the people would not be so ready to apply for it as they would in this country. Possibly, as the result of that conversation, further inquiry was made, the results of which had not been received; but they did know enough to enable; him to warn the hon. Member that when the results were known they would still show an enormous preponderance in favour of the amount of employment in Germany as compared with this country. The hon. Member stated that the Board of Trade figures must be bad, because in Great Britain in times of bad trade it was only the good workmen who were employed, and the bad workmen were left out. That, of course, meant that our system had the effect of increasing the number of the unemployed in this country. He would ask the hon. Member to reconcile his views with those of the Labour Members in this House on the matter.
    The next point of the hon. Member was that the number of unemployed in Germany was smaller because in particular trades instead of turning off men they Worked a shorter time. He was perfectly certain the hon. Member knew what was known to every manufacturer on a large scale in this country, that exactly the same thing applied in the large trades.
    MR. McKENNA: Not the metal trade.
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid that was the trade to which he was about to refer as one to which it distinctly applied. If orders for steel were scarce, no manufacturer would run his mill with fewer men. If he could not run it for the whole week, he would run it for four,
    888
    three, or two days, and leave it idle for the remainder of the week. He thought that so far as the information available could give the number of unemployed, the number of unemployed amongst trades unionists in Germany was enormously less than it was in this country.
    MR. MARKSsaid he hoped the Board of Trade would consider a matter of growing importance from a labour, a national, and an Imperial standpoint. He referred to the increasing employment of foreign seamen in the mercantile marine
    THE CHAIRMAN: The mercantile marine is under another Vote.
    MR. CAWLEYsaid that the hon. Member for South Islington seemed to think that the great panacea for all their ills in regard to trade was that they should have a Minister of Commerce. For his part he had never been able to appreciate that, because the only suggestion made was that the President of the Board of Trade should be called the Minister of Commerce and that he should have a larger salary. He would be the last to think that the President of the Board of Trade would discharge his duties any better if he were called the Minister for Commerce, and he was unwilling to believe that if the President had a larger salary he would perform his duties better than he did now. He thought, however, there should be some change in the Board of Trade. It had far too much to do; and if some of its duties were given to another office he thought the country would be the gainer. He had been told—he did not know what truth there was in it—that the Home Office was the only Department that had not more than it could do. He thought, therefore, that some of the duties now discharged by the Board of Trade should be handed over to the Home Office. The Board of Trade had to look after shipping, railways, and trade, and if they had a real Board of Trade instead of the present Department it would be a good thing for the country. The hon. Member had said that when they were spending millions on the Army they

    889
    should spend a few thousands in helping trade. If a few thousands of pounds more or less would help trade, he thought no Member of this House would grudge them; but he knew sufficient to be aware that there was an enormous amount of money wasted in instructing people how to conduct their own business. If he was asked to make a recommendation he would say that they should not alter the position or salary of the President of the Board of Trade, but should split up the duties and have a Minister looking after railways and shipping, and leave it to a real President of a real Board of Trade to do nothing else than further the interests of the industry and commerce of the country.
    MR. COGHILLsaid he wished to call attention to the issuing of Provisional Orders by the Board of Trade for the construction of light railways. When the Light Railways Act was passed eight years ago it was chiefly intended to provide means of transit in remote country districts. It was not intended that the railways should provide communication between one county and another, or that they should take the place of tramways. But the Act had been used in that way, and companies in constructing tramways under the Light Railways Act had been relieved of many considerations and obligations which would otherwise, have attached to them if they had proceeded under the ordinary Tramways Act. In the course of the last eight years the position of matters had changed. There were now motor-'buses which were quicker than the tramway, and the light railway was not now the best means of getting out of town. Under these light railway schemes not a farthing was paid in compensation to the persons whose houses the trams passed. He had always understood that no traffic of this sort was ever undertaken without compensation being paid to those people whose property was deteriorated in value or absolutely ruined by them. When there were no other means of locomotion these tramways might be allowed to go on, but now that they had motor-'buses which did not in any way interfere with the roads, which did not necessitate the tearing up of the roads and the erection
    890
    of unsightly posts, and which were in every way better, and, above all, more speedy in getting front one part to another, they ought not to be allowed. Great dissatisfaction was felt in the country at the way in which this Act was used for constructing these tramways, and in regard to the way in which the Board of Trade had performed their duty. They had not considered in any way the inhabitants of the localities, nor had they considered the question of alternative routes. He ventured to say that in many parts of the country these Acts had been carried out in a most arbitrary way, and he thought the time had come when the Board of Trade should review their position with regard to light railways altogether, or should suspend their action and not issue so many of these Provisional Order Bills.
    MR. LLEWELLYNcalled attention to the question of alien pilots and the manner in which pilotage certificates were granted to aliens. Hon. Members would recollect that in 1888 a Select Committee sat to consider the question of pilotage; the question of granting certificates to alien pilots was gone into, and ultimately the feeling of the Committee was against the employment of foreigners, though they made no very strong recommendation. In the concluding paragraph they did respectfully suggest that no possible opportunity should be lost by the Government of attempting to secure for this country reciprocity from those Powers on whom this advantage was conferred. He believed the number of foreigners who held pilotage certificates was fifty-nine. He regretted it was not possible to get a direct answer to some of the questions which had been repeatedly raised in the House but he should like some reply with regard to this question of alien pilots, and the getting of some sort of reciprocity from the Powers benefited.
    MR. J. W. WILSONasked to what extent the Board of Trade was able to, and did, use their influence in regard to the larger phases of policy of this country with reference to foreign trade. There were many ways, he said, in which their power could, and ought to be used for the

    891
    benefit of commerce and trade to overcome the difficulties which traders were left to surmount in their own way. For instance, a good deal had been said about preference, and what could be done with respect to that? The Government of the Transvaal at the present time was giving a much boasted preference to English trade, but in a large number of cases that preference was altogether absorbed by the shipping ring, for it was neither more nor less, whose steamers ran to South Africa. In many cases the rates from Hamburg and Antwerp were fully 5 per cent. lower than for British goods from British ports. That was a case in which the Board of Trade might have no power to interfere, but, for a business man at the head of an important Government office like the Board or Trade, there must be ways in which he could make his influence felt for the benefit of the trade of the country. One instance that must occur to all was that commercial institution of the Government, the Post Office, which in giving out the mails must influence an enormous amount of traffic. He contended that the Government ought to join the traders and try and smooth away the obstacles which hindered our trade in any particular channel. In such ways as that he thought great good would come to the trade of this country. In other cases the Government might assist the traders on many occasions by means of retaliation. There must be many articles in which the hon. Gentleman could make his influence felt in the direction of foreign rates which would have an immediate effect in ameliorating and smoothing the channels of trade. He would be out of order in referring to the many treaties made by the Foreign Office with other Powers, but even in those surely the President of the Board of Trade should have a voice as to the way in which those treaties, so far as they affected the trade of the country, should be made. He desired to see the Government carry on the country in the same way as a body of directors carried on a great concern, with all the interest of the country at heart.
    MR. JOHN WILSONsaid he hoped the Board of Trade would take an early opportunity of inquiring into the matter of alien pilots
    892
    with a view to seeing that no more certificates were issued to foreigners.
    MR. DALZIELsaid he thought the Committee was indebted to the hon. Member for Worcestershire for drawing attention the question of shipping rates. How was it possible for our manufacturers to compete in the South African market when it was possible to send goods from New York at half the carriage? That was a very serious matter, and one that made all the difference so far as competing in that, market was concerned. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would give his attention to this matter in such a way as to, if possible, assist the traders. They, no doubt, had his sympathy, but at the same time they would like to see him tackle this question. They heard a good deal of what the Board of Trade could and could not do, but if the Board of Trade made up its mind that this arrangement should be demolished it would be easy enough to carry out a scheme. He, therefore, hoped with some confidence that the hon. Gentleman would devote himself to this matter, in which he might be able to do a great deal of good for the country.
    With regard to overcrowding on railways at the present time the hon. Gentleman had power to stop it at any moment. Nobody could say it was not dangerous for fifteen or twenty people to be packed in a carriage travelling at a considerable speed. And all the Board of Trade had to do was to see how far this evil existed and how it could best be remedied. It was difficult for the companies, when people were crowding into carriages, to tell them they could not go. The only remedy was to have sufficient carriages to meet the traffic, as it was a matter of almost daily occurrence.
    He desired also to refer to the working of the Patent Office under the new rules. As the result of a Committee appointed some years ago certain recommendations were made, some of which were carried out. The new rules were for the purpose of saving the time and money of the poor inventor, but the only practical result had been to benefit the patent agents, whose business had gone up by leaps and bounds. The search now made was with reference to British

    893
    patents only, but to be of any use to the inventor it should be extended to foreign countries, especially Germany and America, so that he might know whether his invention was one upon which he could with advantage spend capital. He would be glad to hear the views of the Secretary to the Board of Trade as to the working of the new rules and as to an extension of the search to foreign countries.
    MR. BRIGGwas understood to ask for an explanation of the apparent confusion of powers between the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office with regard to Consuls abroad. Foreign Consuls had many duties of various kinds to perform, but he did not know whether the Board of Trade had any influence in the matter of their appointment. Where Consuls were appointed for commercial purposes he suggested it was very desirable that tha Board of Trade should have some voice in the appointment, whereas in other cases it might he a question solely for the Foreign Office. It was a mistake to appoint Consuls and expect them to know all the details of a particular trade. A much better plan would be for the Board of Trade to encourage local chambers of commerce or similar bodies to send out agents of their own and for the Government Departments to give them all the facilities they could in the conduct of their inquiries. Such agents had been sent out in connection with the cotton and iron trades, and the Board of Trade could not do better than press forward the idea of sending out deputations with special reference to particular trades or interests.
    MR. HARWOODdesired to emphasise what had been said with regard to the conditions of shipping to South Africa. Those conditions were, he believed, one of the reasons why the prosperity of South Africa had not come up to expectations. Not merely was there a ring of shipowners charging exorbitant rates, but they had a most objectionable system of doing business. Shipping firms allowed large rebates, but if any trader happened to send a single package by another line he lost all right
    894
    to rebates, and the rebates were paid only after long periods so that the fear of their loss might be held as a sword of Damocles over the heads of the traders. The shipping combination must be fought by traders as traders, and they asked the Government to join them, not qua Government but qua trader. South Africa produced practically nothing but gold and diamonds, and therefore had to be fed almost entirely by shipping. The Government were large traders, and he suggested that there should be an interchange of communication between the various Departments in regard to this matter, so that they might use their influence as a whole, for the sake of the colony and the traders, to break down this stifling and injurious monopoly.
    MR. AUSTIN TAYLORdesired to call attention to the action of the Board of Trade in reference to the "boy sailor" scheme initiated with a great flourish of trumpets under the auspices of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon. That scheme on its initiation was described as an attempt to rehabilitate the mercantile marine in the direction of the greater employment of British labour and British seamen. Various views might be held by those who composed the Board of Trade as to the success of the scheme, and a similar diversity of view might obtain amongst the shipping companies. It was admitted that during the first four years of the scheme no less than 4,373 apprentices were carried, and a total payment of £13,653 was made. The Board of Trade recognising that, in the normal course the scheme would come to an end on March 31st, 1905, put themselves in communication with representatives of the shipping interest. On November 8th, 1904, they indited a letter in which they discussed the desirability or otherwise of continuing the scheme, the basis of which really consisted in a rebate from the light dues. The Board of Trade attributed the "partial success" of the scheme to its connection with the light dues, to the extreme inequility of the amounts payable under the rebate system, and the want of a guarantee to the shipowners that they would not lose the services of their boys as soon as they had become useful. He did not intend to wholly

    895
    controvert the reasoning of the Board of Trade on the subject. He believed that shipowners generally would agree that it would be better that any scheme for increasing the employment of British seamen on British ships should not be connected with the light dues, which were admittedly unequal and unfair in incidence.
    There were also other features of the scheme which rendered it undesirable from every point of view. But what he desired to call attention to was the extraordinary action of the Board of Trade in discontinuing the system without offering in any way to substitute for it another scheme which would commend itself to shipowners and the general public. In their Memorandum of November 8th, 1904, the Board of Trade said—
    "It would appear … that there is no lack of boys ready to go to sea, and that shipowners generally are prepared to take and train boys as deck hands provided they can do so without pecuniary loss to themselves. In these circumstances it is surely desirable to let the present 'boy sailor' scheme die a natural death on the 31st March, 1905, and to devise an economical plan which shall at once appeal to both shipowners and probationers, with inducements to the former to train the lads and to the latter to stick by their masters."
    That was the attitude of the Board of Trade on November 8th, 1904, when for reasons which he did not criticise they decided not to renew the "boy sailor" scheme. On February l3th, the Board of Trade came to the conclusion that they were not justified in going on with the scheme or in proceeding with any alternative scheme from which the Navy might derive certain benefits. What he desired to make perfectly clear was that in thus summarily breaking off negotiations with those who represented the shipping interest, the Board of Trade had not given adequate reasons for so doing, and had not made plain to the general public why, having started upon this course of rehabilitating British labour in British ships, they had now summarily abandoned it and offered no substitute whatever. As far as shipowners were concerned he thought he was justified in saying that they were perfectly prepared to meet the Board of Trade in this matter. The responsibility for leaving
    896
    this great question hanging in the air did not rest with the shipowners but with the Board of Trade and the Admiralty. The shipowners had from the first been willing to consider any scheme or any suggestion which could be put forward by either of those two great Departments, and the responsibility rested with the representative of the Board of Trade in that House to state clearly for the information of the general public why the scheme inaugurated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon had been allowed to lapse, and why no adequate substitute dealing with this great question of boy sailors had been brought forward by the Department. He did not know what explanation would be offered, and all he could say was that the written explanations which had been given so far were totally inadequate. Speaking on behalf of shipowners generally, he desired to say that the responsibility for the abandonment of this question lay not with them but with the Department of State who, knowing perfectly well that one scheme was about to lapse, had, without any apparent reason, suddenly dropped the whole question.
    MR. BONAR LAW, who was very indistinctly heard, said with regard to the main subject which had been brought forward and the one which seemed to him the most important—namely, a change in the status of the Board of Trade—that the view of the House appeared to be almost unanimous in favour of some change. On that he had to say that the Government had drafted a Bill carrying out the promise given in the King's Speech, and they expected and intended, so far as they could, to see it carried into law that session. What was felt by every one who had thought about the matter was that a Department which dealt with the trade and commerce of this country could not hope to deal with them efficiently or even decently if it was not constantly in touch with men who were engaged practically in commerce. Of all the ways of coming into touch with commercial men he knew none better than the Commercial Intelligence Department, and it was gratifying to know that there was pretty keen competition for places on the new

    897
    Commercial Intelligence Committee. The difficulty of the Board of Trade was not to find competent and useful men, but that they must leave out men who were perfectly competent and desired to serve. He wished to point out to the House that there was very considerable difficulty in framing the reference to such a Committee which would include everything which the Committee ought to do and would not include something they ought not to do. The real danger of a permanent Committee was in two directions. On the one hand there was a natural temptation to the permanent officials to look upon themselves as professionals and on such a Committee as amateurs. On the other hand there was the danger that members of the Committee might be tempted to devote their energies to what happened to be the subject of popular interest at the moment. He thought nothing could be more fatal to the real usefulness of such a Committee than that issues of that kind should be raised. In the Civil Service, he believed, they had men trying to make their departments as efficient as they could, and such men realised that the great weakness they had was that they had not the means of coming practically into contact with those subjects with which they dealt and of coming directly into touch with the people who represented all the important trades in this country, as this Committee would do.
    His hon. friend had complained that too little money had been placed at the disposal of the Committee. It was true that the grant-in-aid which up to that year had been given to the Committee had been withdrawn; but it had been withdrawn not because the Government objected to the money being spent, but because the Public Accounts Committee took exception to the form in which it had been given. The Government were perfectly willing that the money should be granted, and it would appear in the Estimates which the Committee were asked to pass that day. The amount of the grant-in-aid before was only £1,000. In this year's Estimates £1,000 was put down as well as £1,200 which was put down for the expenses of agents in South Africa and agents who, he hoped, were going to be appointed in other colonies. Therefore the Committee would have now
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    £2,200 instead of £1,000; but he did not pretend that that was all the money they would require, and he thought the Treasury would not show such a shortsighted policy in economy as to deprive them of what money they required. Every case that had been brought to his notice had been thoroughly gone into. He could not say more on that subject at present, because a Committee had been specially appointed to deal with it. That Committee was now sitting, and it would obviously be out of place to say more until it had reported.
    His hon. friend the Member for North Somerset called attention to the question of alien pilotage. That was really a very important matter, and the President of the Board of Trade had shown his interest in it by receiving a deputation on the subject. The question of preferential rates to South Africa was also one with which the Government were anxious to deal. He had been asked whether more could not be done for the commercial interests of the country by way of negotiation of treaties between this and other countries. If his hon. friend who raised this question looked at it from a business point of view he would not be long in coming to the conclusion that they would negotiate most effectively if they had something to give. With regard to the complaint that Consuls had not sufficient commercial experience and training, the object of the Board of Trade was to secure Consuls who would be more interested in trade. Their views on the subject had been accepted by the Foreign Office. Replies from Consuls could now be received without the intervention of the Foreign Office. As to the matter to which his hon. friend for the Toxteth Division of Liverpool had called attention, namely, that the Board of Trade should do more in regard to the employment of British seamen on board our mercantile marine, he hoped that some good results would follow from the scheme which had already been proposed. It was in the interest of this country from the point of view of having sailors for the Navy that such a scheme should be carried into effect. He would ask the House whether it would be proper that there should be a vote of money for that purpose. The hon. Member had stated that a great

    899
    many shipowners were anxious that such a scheme should be carried into effect.
    MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR: I said that the shipowners denied responsibility for adopting a scheme which the Board of Trade and the Admiralty jointly put forward on their own initiative.
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid he understood the hon. Member to say more than that. He understood him to say that the majority of the shipowners were dissatisfied with the scheme. It meant money, and the Board of Trade would consider any suggestions which the shipowners had to make on the financial aspect of the question. Reference had been made to the overcrowding on railways. He had made inquiry into that question, and he found that the Board had really no power to deal with it.
    MR. DALZIELsaid inquiry might be made with the view to legislation on the Subject.
    Mr. BONAR LAWsaid the people who overcrowded carriages wished to be carried. It was obviously impossible at holiday times to avoid overcrowding taking place, and there must be some allowance made in such case.
    MR. BRYCEsaid the discussion that afternoon had ranged over a great variety of subjects, and that fact was interesting as showing the many departments of our national work with which the Board of Trade was concerned. He wished to make a few remarks as to the proposal, recently put forward, that the status of the Board of Trade should be raised, and the staff strengthened. The Secretary to the "Board of Trade had just said that the Government were going to bring forward their Bill this session. He would like to say to the hon. Gentleman that if the Government were going to pass the measure they had better, to use a colloquial expression, hurry up. There would be a great deal to do in what remained of the session after the Whitsuntide recess. There were several questions of considerable difficulty still to be settled, and if the Government meant to settle this question the sooner they brought in the Bill the better. He had not heard that any Member desired to oppose it. It had been shown by the
    900
    Committee that inquired into the matter that a change was desirable. The varied work of the Board of Trade touched some of the greatest interests of the country, and it was right that the Department should be properly organised. The commercial classes had frequently represented that they wanted the Board of Trade to be a Board of Commerce. He took this opportunity afforded by the prospective change to suggest that it would be well if commercial men would state more definitely than they had ever yet done what they desired the Board of Trade to do. The Board at present were chiefly concerned in putting in force certain statutes in relation to railways, shipping, patents, and other matters, and a desire had been expressed in many quarters that they should do more to promote and encourage trade. He would put it to those Members of the House who were interested in the question, and the much larger number of people in the country who were interested in it, that they should now suggest some means by which the Governmental organisation could be made more useful for the purpose of a Board of Trade.
    One method was clear, and that was to provide more complete intelligence upon all questions relating to tariffs, markets, modes of communication and so forth. In that direction substantial progress had been made. The Committee was a good one and had worked well. When he was at the Board of Trade it was contemplated to appoint other Committees who would provide the Intelligence Department with information in other directions as well as from abroad. Two difficulties had been mentioned by the Secretary to the Board of Trade. One was the difficulty of bringing officials to run in harness along with outsiders. The other was the question of preventing the Committee from entering on thorny and controversial grounds. He did not think there was much in the first difficulty. The officials of the Board of Trade were men of great competence, zeal, and earnestness, and were perfectly willing to take advantage of all the light they could obtain from commercial men outside. He did not, therefore, believe that they would be at all jealous of having such men associated with them in the work with which they had to deal. He

    901
    believed that if it was thought desirable to organise Committees in regard to the great manufacturing industries of the country there would be no difficulty. The other difficulty was more serious—that of calling into existence a body to deal with questions that might arise which in one sense were commercial questions but which had a political side and in which political controversy was involved. On such questions it might be very difficult to give the Committee its head and prevent it being made an organ for expressing controversial opinions. In that case the Board of Trade might be accused of nominating members of the Committee who would favour their views. It would be necessary in a matter of that kind to proceed with great caution; but the idea was a fertile one and he did not despair of getting over the difficulty to which the Secretary to the Board of Trade had referred.
    With regard to the Report of the Committee on the appointment of Consuls, he wished that the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs had been present, as he would have liked to ask the noble Lord what in the world the Foreign Office were going to do with this Report. It was now a year since the Report had been submitted to the House. It was an excellent Report; it was discussed in the House more than a year ago and was received with universal approval. The Foreign Office had been asked why they had not given effect to it and there was no answer. He hoped that the words used in the House in regard to that Report would reach the exalted head of the Foreign Office. He could not see why the recommendations in the Report should not be given effect to, or why the Foreign Office should be so long in taking a step so clearly in the interest of the commercial community.
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid he had no right to speak for the Foreign Office, but it was his duty to know that they had adopted the Report, and that the reason why no action had been taken was that there had been no vacancies.
    MR. BRYCEsaid he was very glad to hear what the Secretary to the Board of Trade had said. It was certainly a very good thing that the Consuls should
    902
    be in the closest relations with the Intelligence Department of the Board of Trade. It would also be a very good thing if we had more travelling officers, like the gentleman who went three or four years ago to South America, or the gentleman at present reporting in Siberia, who could travel about and bring home up-to-date information in regard to the conditions and prospects of trade. Consuls when at home on leave should also be encouraged to go round the manufacturing centres to tell manufacturers what they knew about the lands in which they were stationed, and to receive hints from the manufacturers as to the form in which they should draw up their Reports. He was encouraged to say this, because he happened to know of a young Consul who did that very thing and who told him that he had got many valuable suggestions from manufacturers, and had, he believed, been able in return to make suggestions which would be valuable to the manufacturers. If the Government Department got into more direct touch with the commercial classes, and if the latter knew a little better than they did that the Department was anxious to help and had a desire for their co-operation, he thought a great deal might be done to contribute to that result.
    He would suggest to the Government that if they were going to carry this Bill for altering the status of the Board of Trade, they would find themselves faced with a very important question, viz., that of determining the relation between the different Department of the State as regarded labour subjects. The labour work was at present partly in the hands of the Board of Trade and partly in those of the Home Office; and considerable inconvenience had arisen from the undefined nature of the functions of each. The consequence was a considerable amount of overlapping. On the other hand, it would be a great disadvantage to take all the labour work from the Board of Trade and give it to the Home Office, because the administrative work connected with the railways could not be separated from the Board of Trade. Therefore this question had got to be faced in the reconstitution of the Board of Trade and the increase in its staff which might be necessary. This was a very good time to face the question, and in the endeavour to meet the desires of the

    903
    representatives of the working classes the Board of Trade should be fully organised for the purpose of dealing with labour work.
    A very important question was raised by the hon. Member for Liverpool about the provision of sailors, but so few representatives of the shipping interest being present that subject could not be entered into that day. In regard to the overcrowding of railway trains, a subject which had been raised by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, he did not quite accept the views of the Secretary to the Board of Trade. It was quite true that the Board had not statutory powers in regard to the matter, and therefore could not apply compulsion; but, apart from compulsory powers, there was much which the Board could do. It had so many functions in relation to railways that any representations which the Board made would have influence with the companies in working their lines. The Board could so easily avert from the railway companies public hostility that the railway companies were bound to listen with care and attention to the representations made to them by the Board of Trade. He would, therefore, be disappointed if the Board of Trade intended to leave this question alone. It was a question which really fell within the general functions which Parliament had given them in relation to the internal communications of the country, and the Board ought to use this species of reserve power. For instance, they could threaten the railway companies with legislation, which had been found to be very efficacious in past times. He was glad to join in what had been said by the Secretary to the Board of Trade in regard to the confidence which hon. Members had expressed in its present work; and he hoped that in the, more enlarged and dignified field contemplated for it, the Board would continue to justify the confidence of the House in its administration as it had hitherto done.
    MR. RITCHIEsaid that a matter had been discussed by the hon. Member for Liverpool in which he felt some paternal interest; that was the scheme for the training of boy sailors which was inaugurated when he was at the Board of Trade. His hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Trade made an
    904
    observation which he was bound to say he could not agree with. In reply to the hon. Member for Liverpool, the Secretary to the Board of Trade said that the reason for abandoning the scheme was that the Admiralty had intimated that the scheme was not found to be of any advantage to the Navy, for the benefit of which it was originally started. He absolutely denied that. No doubt it was expected when the scheme was proposed that it would be useful to the Navy by training lads who would be afterwards available for the Naval Reserve, but one of his objects, as the author of the scheme, in pressing it on the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the education of boys to become sailors for the mercantile marine. It was matter for much complaint and great cause of regret that our mercantile marine was largely manned by foreign sailors. Sharing that regret, although he did not take the extreme views which some people did in regard to foreign sailors, he thought it would be of advantage both to the mercantile marine and the Navy to have boys educated for the sea service. One of the objects he had in his mind was a supply of seamen to the merchant service, and only on that ground was he justified in asking the assistance of shipowners. He knew perfectly well that the amount that would be received from the light dues would not be sufficient to compensate shipowners for the cost of training boys; but, incidentally, it would be a great advantage to the mercantile marine to have a large number of trained sailors He was sorry that the scheme had been dropped without anything being substituted for it. The explanation that had been given was wholly inadequate. He would rather have seen the Government putting forward another scheme affording greater inducements to the shipowners. It was true that the shipowners did not respond to the extent anticipated; and he thought the shipowners might have taken greater advantage of the opportunity presented to them than they had done. If a still larger contribution from the light dues would have induced shipowners to take greater advantage of the opportunity he would not have opposed a larger grant. There were no doubt considerable difficulties in carrying out the

    905
    scheme, and it had not had quite the result that they anticipated, but the Board of Trade should have considered the possibility of substituting for it a scheme that would produce better results.
    It was a great satisfaction to him to know that the Commercial Intelligence Department, which was inaugurated while he was at the Board of Trade, had been so successful and that further developments were in progress. He had always been of opinion that the able staff of the Board of Trade, in co-operation with members of the mercantile community, who understood the wants of the mercantile community, could in many ways help forward the commerce of this country. He agreed that there should be a large increase in the number of commercial agents abroad. who should endeavour to ascertain exactly what it was that was hindering British trade and promoting foreign trade at our cost. But commercial men in this country were somewhat to blame. He thought they had not adopted the means at their disposal for promoting their trade in foreign countries. No one could read the Reports of our Consuls without seeing how much behind their foreign competitors the commercial community of this country were in pushing their wares abroad and in satisfying the wants of the people whom they desired to supply. The fact was that for so many years this country had been such a great exporter when there was comparatively so little competition, that it had not been a question of what foreign countries wanted, but what this country wished to supply. All that was now changed. He had always thought that some of the work of the Commercial Department of the Foreign Office might with advantage be transferred to the Board of Trade. Consuls had, however, diplomatic duties to perform as well as commercial duties, and could not be wholly dissociated from the Foreign Office. The present President of the Board of Trade had himself the supervision of the Commercial Department of the Foreign Office when he was Undersecretary, and no better opportunity for bringing the two Departments into harmony could arise.
    906
    He was pleased to hear that a Bill was in preparation for increasing the status and the responsibilities of the Board of Trade. It was a scandal that in this great commercial country the Board of Trade should be a second-class office. There was no Department in this country which ought to be more fully equipped, or ought to occupy a higher position, than the Board of Trade. It was certain that if the Government brought forward the Bill without undue delay it would meet with practically the unanimous consent of the House. He was glad that the views he had always held were likely to be realised soon. He had been in many offices during his Parliamentary career. In all of them he had the greatest admiration, not only for the capacity, but for the desire of the permanent officials to promote the interests committed to their charge, but he was certain that in no office would the staff more gladly welcome the co-operation of commercial men than at the Board of Trade. He was convinced that by co-operation between the mercantile community and the Board of Trade the commercial interests of the country could be advanced. He was glad that the Board of Trade was so ably represented in that House by his hon. friend the Parliamentary Secretary.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he cordially concurred with the right hon. Gentleman with reference to his estimate of the scheme for training lads for the mercantile marine, and he trusted that some effective solution would be found. It was not by training youths for the Navy alone, but in other ways that they could attract British seamen to the mercantile marine. At present seamen were not included in the Workmen's Compensation Act, though it was sought to meet their case by an Amendment of the Merchan Shipping Act.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not in order in discussing this question now.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid he was reminded of the subject by what was said by the right hon. Gentleman in regard to this scheme, and he hoped that the Government would give an indication

    907
    of the course they intended to pursue in the matter.
    MR. CUMMING MACDONAsaid he wished to call attention to the overcrowding of railway trains. He did not refer only to excursion trains, but to ordinary trains. The situation at Liverpool Street Station and the South-Eastern terminus was perfectly scandalous every evening. Men and women were hustled together in railway carriages; often times, in fact every evening, double the amount of passengers were crammed and jammed into the space authorised by law in each compartment. How it was more accidents to life and limb had not occurred under such circumstances was more due to the courtesy and forbearance of the passengers than the proper preparations of the railway companies to meet the necessities of the case; and if the Board of Trade had not the power to remedy the matter, an Act of Parliament should be introduced to give the Board of Trade full power to adjust so great a grievance.
    MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade told the old story that the Board of Trade had not sufficient power to deal with railway companies. But that was no answer. The Board could not compel railway companies, but they had power to tackle the railway companies in a way no one else had. The Board had the power of initiating legislation which would affect railway companies very seriously, The grievances with respect to differential rates and weighbridges were strongly felt by the farmers of the country, and it was no answer for the Board of Trade to say they had no powers. They could investigate the matters alluded to and endeavour to do something, instead of remaining inactive unless stirred up from outside. What the Department; always said was that nobody had brought a definite case before them on which they could proceed. But that was not what was asked for. What was asked for was a general investigation, and that the facts should be put within reach of the general public. For instance, in the case of overcrowding on railways, if the facts were brought within reach of the public such pressure would be brought to bear
    908
    on the railway company that if it were proved that the railway was overcrowded there would be no question as to any opposition to a competing railway, the company in such a case would hardly have a locus standi. The farmer and trader were not in a position to stir up the Board of Trade, and it was necessary that the Department itself should take the initiative. Unless some more satisfactory reply was given he hoped his hon. friend would go to a division.
    MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid it was a great relief for people to know that at last we were going to have a Ministry of Commerce. When we compared the policy of this country with that of others in regard to this matter, everybody must recognise that we had fallen far behind the times in the methods we had adopted in looking after our commercial interests. Contrast our system with that of America. In 1901 President Roosevelt thought there should be created a Cabinet Minister who should deal with commerce and in the broader sense with whatever concerned labour, great business corporations, and so forth. Within a few months of that declaration the United States of America had a complete Ministry of Commerce, framed in such a way as to enable them to study commerce in every particular, and do their best to further it in every direction and foster it all over the world. We still clung to the policy of laissez faire, hindrance, and difficulty. We could see by that how far we were behind the times in this matter, and it was that which accounted for the great depression in this country. What was it that was wanted? We had Consuls abroad, and we had a great Department at home, and we had one or two commercial attaches who were notoriously overworked, who had not only to supply details as to the capitals in which they lived, but of two or three countries besides. Compare that system with that of America, who spent twenty times as much as we on collecting this information, which was absolutely necessary if people desired to live up to the times and not to be hindered or get into bad grooves. It was notorious that our Consuls and attaches were behind the times. He recognised that

    909
    an inquiry had been granted to consider these matters, and no doubt in time we should have a complete staff of Consuls and commercial attaches, but that method was very slow.
    As regards railways, the methods adopted were not only expensive, but absolutely unbusinesslike. If a railway was to be built for the convenience of trade, the promoters of that railway had to come to the House for powers, but, instead of offering any facilities, the procedure necessary to obtain Parliamentary powers was the most expensive in the world, and be it remembered that the thousands and thousands of pounds that were spent in promoting and opposing railways were in the end all added to the railway rates. Why should not the inquiry instituted by the Board of Agriculture as to railway rates be extended so as to include all kinds of goods, manufactured and otherwise, carried by rail, so that the Board of Trade could obtain information on these points. We wore not even in touch with our own Colonies. How could we be so while the President of the Board of Trade had no representatives there? All these things injured the trade of this country. They were present to everyone's mind and should be faced. With regard to railway rates and traffic generally, we should do something to use Our great waterways, as was done on the Continent, where the farmers and others only had to put their goods on the boats on the canals and get them carried at a nominal cost.
    It was time that a Bill to create a Ministry of Commerce was passed in that House. If the Government, did not pass it, the Opposition would do it the moment they came into office. It would not be a difficult Bill to pass, but it would have to be one which would provide for all our commercial interests and provide for consultations with the Minister of Commerce. At the present moment the President of the Board of Trade, although he had an Advisory Board, never called it together or presided at its deliberations. The Board met in a separate chamber, and the right hon. Gentleman did not know what resolutions were passed or what reforms were required. When the Board of Trade allowed everything to go on
    910
    without any supervision, the time had arrived for the Ministry of Commerce Bill to be introduced and passed without delay. The last stage of the session was approaching, and Parliament was expiring; surely the promise of legislation should now be redeemed. He hoped the Minister of Commerce when appointed would not be a Member of the other House. He did not complain of the representation of the Board of Trade in this House; probably his hon. friend would be the new Minister, and then, if he were invested with all the powers necessary, a step would have been taken which perhaps more than any fiscal reform would enable us to compete successfully with foreign nations.
    MR. PIRIEcalled attention to the great hardship suffered by traders under the "owner's risk" system of carriage. It would be out of order to suggest legislation, so he merely urged, that the Board of Trade should make representations to the railway and steamship companies on the subject, and bring to bear all the pressure they could in order to make those companies realise more thoroughly the unsatisfactory state of affairs which now obtained. Our Colonies were more advanced in these matters than the mother country. New Zealand and Canada had adopted rates which freed the owner from all risk of damage in transit, and a similar course had been taken by the French Government. It was an urgent question, and the Board of Trade ought to be alive to the necessity of some change. To cope satisfactorily with the growing evil, legislation would ultimately be necessary, but in the meantime to ease the situation much might be done through representations to the carrying companies from the Board of Trade. He could give countless instances where owners had suffered loss to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds through the present unsatisfactory system. It was no answer to say that by paying a higher rate they could throw the responsibility upon the carrying companies. Competition was so keen and rates were already so high that traders were compelled to accept the lower scale of charges, and to run the risk which ought in justice to fall on the companies. He hoped the

    911
    Secretary to the Board of Trade would give this matter his serious consideration.
    MR. DALZIELregretted that the Secretary to the Board of Trade had not given a more encouraging reply. The hon. Gentleman had apparently donned the official garb, and intended to get the Vote through as quickly as possible, and then nothing more would be heard of the matter until next year. As a business man representing a business constituency, it had been hoped that the hon. Gentleman would devote himself seriously to the grievances suffered by the trading community, but the hopes had not been realised. The question of overcrowding was not a bank holiday matter; it was an every-day occurrence. Working men and city men travelled to business day after day in carriages containing twelve or fifteen persons huddled together like cattle. Was that to be allowed to continue? He contended that the Department had power to deal with the matter. It could be stopped as constituting a danger to the travelling public. Moreover, pressure could be brought to bear in connection with the Orders which railway companies asked for, the additional powers which they sought, and in a hundred and one other ways. The hon. Gentleman should go and see for himself what was going on, and then, if he still held that his powers were not sufficient to enable him to deal with the matter, he should make representations to the chief of the Cabinet in order that the necessary powers might be obtained. He maintained, however, that the existing powers, properly administered, were sufficient to put an end to this public scandal.
    The question of South African rates of freight, upon which no satisfactory reply had been given, was of the utmost importance to the trading community. In his own constituency they were losing contracts to the value of thousands of pounds every year because of the existing state of things. Goods could be sent at half the rates from America, with the result that the British trader was practically shut out of the South African market. A monopoly of the trade was in the hands of a particular ring, and prices were fixed to the detriment of British manufacturers. One way in which to
    912
    deal with that would be for the Board of Trade to use its influence to get Government contracts made free and open instead of being the monopoly of the existing ring. At present practically all the support of the Government went to this ring, and it was the duty of the Board of Trade to make such representations as would put an end to the monopoly. He had that day been informed of a case where, under the ring, 42s. per ton had to be paid for rails to South Africa, but the contract had been thrown open, with the result that rails could now be sent for 12s. a ton. It was only reasonable that great dissatisfaction should exist. The taxpayers of the country had made great sacrifices for the war, and they naturally failed to see why America and other countries should reap the reward. The hon. Member might have given them more assurances that something would be done to reduce these enormous prices. It was practically impossible for English traders to compete in South Africa, and he hoped they would protest against this unsatisfactory state of affairs by taking a division.
    MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid the complaint in regard to owner's risk was not confined merely to the trade alluded to by the hon. Member, but it was a grievance and hardship shared by a very large section of the community. Though his hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Trade might be right in saying he had not the power to interfere, nevertheless he could assure him that this grievance, was a widespread one, and required not only the attention of the Board of Trade, but would probably require some drastic legislation. He merely wished to remind his hon. friend that this was a matter which was very much occupying the minds of business man in the country and concerned very much the welfare of trade. It was a matter which was urgent and could not be brushed aside as being one of the ordinary grievances which they were accustomed to hear. He wished to endorse what had been said in the last speaker in regard to the overcrowding of railway carriages, and the present state of thing respect by some parts of his constituency was a gross scandal. So long as the Board of Trade

    913
    did not bring the pressure which it could bring upon railway companies by not making things too easy in one direction or the other, so long would this scandal continue. It was not only a question of public health and a danger, but it was a matter which affected the business capacity of the nation to a far larger extent than was realised. Some immediate relief ought to be given to a state of things which was entailing immense personal suffering upon a large section of the community.
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid the hon. Member for Aberdeen had brought to his notice a subject which he had gone into a good deal—the question of owner's risk rates. It was impossible for the Department really to deal with it without fresh legislation. They should carefully consider it, and if he saw any possible way of doing anything that could help trade and not be unjust to the railways, he should be very glad to try it. As to the matter of preferential freights to South Africa, if he were speaking only his own opinion and not speaking as representing the Government, he should probably have made the same speech as the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs. The hon. Member must, however, bear in mind that, if the Government intended definitely to do something, it could not explain its intentions beforehand. He must remind the hon. Member that a Committee had been appointed to inquire into this matter under the auspices of the Colonial Secretary. He agreed with the hon. Member in thinking that they could only deal with the matter in one way and that was, as traders, by putting into the scale whatever goods the Government Departments had to send.
    MR. DALZIEL: That is all we ask for?
    MR. BONAR LAWasked what did that involve? It was not merely a question of the interests which were directly controlled by Government Departments. It certainly would not be effective unless the Agents-General of these Colonies, who were also interested, were induced to come under the same arrangement.
    MR. DALZIEL: They are our servants. Why not dismiss them?
    MR. BONAR LAWsaid he did not mean the Agents-General as such—he meant the Colonies they represented. Without the co-operation of these Colonies any action of that kind would probably be ineffective. He did not wish to make it appear that this did not concern the Board of Trade. If such a thing could be prevented it ought to be prevented as far as possible. All the Board of Trade could do was what was done by his right hon. friend who was now President of the Local Government Board—to call the attention of the country and of the Government to the effect which the present state of affairs was having on their industry. The only Department which could really effectively deal with it was the Colonial Office.
    MR. WHITLEY: Has a single ton of Government goods ever been sent outside the shipping ring?
    MR. BONAR LAWasked if it was easy to alter it, so long as there was nothing else? In his opinion it could only be cured by getting the shipping lines to take reasonable rates, in which case he thought it would be very unjust for the Government or the House to try to interfere with a body which, in the past, had done a very great deal to develop the trade of South Africa. Either they must do that, or they must produce some line in competition which could deal effectively with it and despatch regular sailings to South Africa. The Government were obliged to make contracts that ran for a year, and the only way to make satisfactory arrangements was to get reasonable rates from existing lines or from other competing lines. As regarded overcrowding in railway trains, it was in some cases due to the fact that it was an impossibility for the railway companies to provide sufficient trains for the traffic. The consequence was that the passengers would suffer if the Board insisted that no more than he normal complement should be carried. It was easy to criticise this matter but it was very difficult to deal with it in a practical way.
    MR. HARWOODcalled attention to the condition of the canal system. He said that trade on canals had practically become a monopoly in the hands of railway companies.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not think there is anything connected with canals under this Vote.
    MR. HARWOODsaid that he should have thought that if railway rates came under this Vote, canals which belonged to railway companies would also be in order.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Certainly canals do not come under this Vote, and it is questionable whether railway rates do.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid he desired to say a word or two about shipping freights to South Africa.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I may point out that these freights are not under the control of the Board of Trade.
    MR. DALZIELsubmitted that this question had been raised on this Vote in former years, and he thought they were entitled to urge that the representative of the Board of Trade should make representations to the proper quarter.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: This Vote does not seem to me to have any connection with freights to South Africa.
    MR. DALZEIL: Surely we are entitled to complain that the Board of Trade has not acted energetically in this matter.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid if they were unable to discuss the action of the President of the Board of Trade, upon his salary, in relation to commercial questions, then the discussion was no use at all.
    THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: It is quite in order to discuss the action of the President of the Board of Trade, but I cannot see how the hon. Member connects this question of shipping freights to South Africa with this Vote. That seems to me to be out of order, because the Board of Trade is not responsible.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid he wished to refer to the way in which the President of the Board of Trade could, if he would, cure the complaint which had been so general now for the last two or three years. The right hon. Gentleman was in charge of the commerce of the country, and it was to his Department that the Government turned when they wanted advice in dealing with commercial questions. He considered that the President of the Board of Trade had failed to use the influence he had in the direction of free trade as regards the shipping ring to South Africa. There had been immense Government contracts given out, and they knew that not a single ton of Government orders had been given outside that ring. What they complained of was that the President of the Board of Trade appeared to have taken no notice of this question. He did not say that the President of the Board of Trade should have put on pressure, but, if he had given advice to one of his colleagues, the contracts might have been thrown open, and there would not have been the preferential treatment which had been hindering our manufacturers. Last year there were plenty of offers outside the ring, but the men who gave them could not get the Government orders. The Government had strengthened the ring against its competitors.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 126; Noes, 195. (Division List No. 198.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N, E.

    Benn, John Williams

    Cameron, Robert

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Black, Alexander William

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Ainsworth, John Stirling

    Boland, John

    Cawley, Frederick

    Allen, Charles P.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Ambrose, Robert

    Brigg, John

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Bright, Allan Heywood

    Cremer, William Randal

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Burt, Thomas

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

    Buxton, N. E. (York, N R, Whitby

    Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

    Bell, Richard

    Caldwell, James

    Delany, William

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Edwards, Frank

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Ellice, Capt EC (S Andrw's B'ghs

    Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

    Runciman, Walter

    Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

    Leng, Sir John

    Russell, T. W.

    Emmott, Alfred

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    MacVeagh Jeremiah

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

    Shackleton, David James

    Fenwick, Charles

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Findlay, Alex, (Lanark, N. E.

    Mooney, John J.

    Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Freeman, Thomas, Captain F.

    Murphy, John

    Smith, Samuel (Flint)

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

    Spencer, Rt. Hn C R (Northants

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herb. John

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Sullivan, Donal

    Grant, Corrie

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    O'Brien. P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

    Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

    O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

    Tillett, Louis John

    Harwood, George

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Toulmin, George

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Wallace, Robert

    Helme, Norval Watson

    O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham

    O'Malley, William

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    Higham, John Sharp

    O'Mara, James

    White, Luke (York. E. R.

    Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

    Partington, Oswald

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

    Holland, Sir Willaim Henry

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

    Phillipps, John Wynford

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley)

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Price, Robert John

    Wilson, J. W (Worcestersh. N.

    Joicey, Sir James

    Priestley, Arthur

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    Rea, Russell

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

    Edward Strachey and Mr.

    Keswick, William

    Richards, Thomas

    Warner.

    Lamont, Norman

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Langley, Batty

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    NOES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Coates, Edward Feetham

    Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn

    Allsopp, Hon. George

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O.

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Arrol, Sir William

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.

    Grenfell, William Henry

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Gretton, John

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Guthrie, Walter Murray

    Balcarres, Lord

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hain, Edward

    Balfour. Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'ry

    Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds

    Davenport, William Bromley

    Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Denny, Colonel

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C

    Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

    Bartley, Sir George C. T.

    Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

    Heath, Sir J. (Staffords. N. W.)

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W

    Bill, Charles

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Hickman, Sir Alfred

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Fellowes, Rt. Hn. Ailwyn Edw.

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

    Finch, Rt. Hn. George H.

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Boulnois, Edmund

    Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs

    Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

    Brassey, Albert

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

    Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

    Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Bull, William James

    Flower, Sir Ernest

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Butcher, John George

    Forster, Henry William

    Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

    Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow

    Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Jessel, Captain Herb. Merton

    Cavendish, V, C. W. (Derbysh.

    Gardner, Ernest

    Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Garfit, William

    Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W

    Chamberlain, Rt Hn J A (Worc.

    Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

    Kimber, Sir Henry

    Chapman, Edward

    Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

    Knowles, Sir Lees

    918

    919

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

    Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

    Spear, John Ward

    Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth)

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Spencer, Sir E (W. Bromwich)

    Lawson, John G. (Yorks, N. R.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

    Percy, Earl

    Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Lockwood, Lieut. Col. A. R.

    Pilkington, Colonel Richard

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Stroyan, John

    Lowe, Francis William

    Plummer, Sir Walter R.

    Strutt, Hn. Charles Hedley

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Lucas, Col. F. (Lowestoft)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

    Thorburn, Sir Walter

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred

    Purvis, Robert

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Rankin, Sir James

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

    Tuff, Charles

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Tufnell, Lieut. -Col. Edward

    M'Calmont, Colonel James

    Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

    Tuke, Sir John Batty

    M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

    Renwick, George

    Turnour, Viscount

    Malcolm, Ian

    Ridley, S. Forde

    Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H.

    Marks, Harry Hananel

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas Thomson

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne

    Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

    Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Milner, Rt, Hn. Sir Frederick G

    Rothschild, Hon. L. Walter

    Wilson, John (Glasgow

    Milvain, Thomas

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H) Yorks.)

    Mitchell, William (Burnley

    Royds, Clement Molyneaux

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Rutherford, John (Lancashire

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Montagu, Hon. J Scott (Hants.)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

    Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Sinclair, William Edward T.

    Alexander Acland-Hood and

    Mount, William Arthur

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Viscount Valentia.

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

    Muntz, Sir Philip A.

    Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker (Lanarks

    Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn "—(Sir A. Acland-Hood)—put, and agreed to.

    CLASS I.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £16,565, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for maintaining certain Harbours under the Board of Trade, and for Grants in Aid of Harbours."
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

    WAYS AND MEANS [5TH JUNE].
    Resolution reported.
    "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending 31st day of March, 1906, the sum of £16,636,200 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
    Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Victor Cavendish.

    CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.
    "To apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow.
    ADJOURNMENT.
    Adjourned accordingly at twenty minutes before Seven o'clock.
BARON GRAVES.
Report from the Lord Chancellor, That, in the opinion of the Lord Chancellor, the claim of Henry Cyril Percy, Baron Graves of Gravesend, in the Peerage of Ireland, claiming a right to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland is of such a nature that it ought to be referred to the Committee for Privileges; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—Skegness Water; Bolton Corporation; North-Eastern Railway (Steam Vessels).
Also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 15).
And also the Certificate that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the petition for the following Bill:—South Barracas (Buenos Ayres) Gas and Coke Company.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Wemyss Dock Bill [H.L.]. Presented, and read 1a.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Liver-pool Corporation Bill, ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed.
Read, and agreed to.
South Barracas (Buenos Ayres) Gas and Coke Company—(Petition for Bill). Examiners' Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday the 27th instant.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]—(Pudsey Corporation Tramways Order). A Petition of Messrs. Dyson and Company, of 9, Great George Street, Westminster, Parliamentary agents, praying for leave to present a petition of the Yorkshire Electric Power Company, praying to be heard by counsel against the Order, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 92 for presenting such petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and Standing Order No. 92 to be considered on Thursday next in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said petition.
London United Tramways (Extension of Time) Bill. Reported, without Amendment.
Highland Railway Bill. Reported, with an Amendment.
Halifax Corporation Bill; Bristol Blind Asylum Bill [H.L.]; Acton Sewage Bill; Ocean Accident and Guarantee Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Oldham and Saddleworth District Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Great Northern Railway Bill. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported, with Amendments.
Rhondda Urban District Council Bill. Read 2a, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Birmingham Corporation Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments; further

819
Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
Finance Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill. Brought from the Commons.
Caledonian Railway Bill; Dublin United Tramways Bill; Midland Railway Bill; North-Eastern Railway Bill; Worcestershire County Council (Bridges) Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
Newry, Keady, and Tynan Light Railway Bill; Bootle Corporation Bill; London County Council (General Powers) Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
Lautour's Divorce Bill [H.L.]; Malone's Divorce (Validation) Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Accrington Corporation Bill; Aylesbury Gas Bill; Croydon Gas Bill. Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill [H.L.]. Committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London No. 1) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). An Amendment made. Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendment to be received on Thursday next.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). The Amendment proposed by the Select Committee made. Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendment to be received on Thursday next.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). Amendments made. Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill; Local Government Provisional Order (Gas) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
Gas Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Donovan's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill. Read 1a to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 104.)

ADMINISTRATIVE COUNTY OF LONDON AND DISTRICT ELECTRIC POWER COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Chairman of Committees.)
LORD KINNAIRD: My Lords, I rise to ask whether the noble Earl who has just moved the Third Reading of this Bill will consent to adjourn, it for a few days in order that the House may be in possession of the facts concerning its provisions. The Bill is, I believe, a reversal of the whole policy of Parliament, which decided in the past that London should be divided into districts for the purpose of the supply of electricity, that the undertakers should be under statutory obligation to supply any consumer for any purpose, and that the undertakings of companies should be purchasable by the local authorities on terms which seem rather onerous on the companies and which do not sufficiently allow for the recoupment of the money invested in those companies. The supply was necessarily at first mainly given for lighting, and it is only within about the

821
last three years that a demand for power has sprung up. This demand the existing undertakers have met, and they are fully alive to the need for a cheap supply of power to manufacturers. They are able to supply all the power which can be required at low rates, and if they were given the same privileges which this new company are asking, they could supply at quite as low a rate as that company could do.
The new company seeks to be relieved of all the conditions which are imposed on existing undertakings, such us the London County Council's Building Acts, restriction of area, prohibition to supply outside that area or of combination, and, in the case of companies, liability to purchase, and to compete under these very favourable conditions with existing companies who are under all these disabilities. If any relaxation in the conditions hitherto imposed by Parliament is to be made surely it should be granted to existing undertakings rather than to a new company; the more so as many millions of money have been invested in these undertakings on the conditions laid down by Parliament and in the belief that those conditions would not be altered to their detriment. To relax them in favour of a new company, and to authorise it to compete with existing undertakings which are still bound by the old conditions, is not treatment which investors might fairly expect from Parliament. The term of some of these companies is a short one, and your Lordships can readily understand that to raise money for a few years with uncertainty as to what may happen at the end of the period is a serious matter for shareholders and those who administer these companies. Under these circumstances, and as this is an entirely new proposal, I venture to ask your Lordships to allow the Bill to be adjourned for the further consideration of its provisions, and not leave it to the other House to protect the interests involved.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW); My Lords, I hardly know what object could be attained by the postponement of the Third Reading of this Bill. This is a
822
very complicated and difficult subject, and one which has been under the consideration of a Committee of your Lordships' House for a period extending over six weeks. The Committee was presided over by the noble Earl opposite, Lord Camperdown, and I do not think I shall be betraying any confidence when I say that the opinion was universally expressed, by both those who promoted the Bill and those who opposed it, that the Committee and the noble Earl himself gave the most careful and attentive consideration to the whole matter. I do not think your Lordships could with advantage reconsider the principle of this Bill without hearing the evidence and counsel in the same way that the Committee did. This Bill involves a very large sum of money, and I think it would be very unfortunate if your Lordships were to do anything which would have the effect of preventing the Bill being considered in another place in time for it either to be passed into law or to be rejected, after consideration, during the present session of Parliament. I am sure the noble Lord will concur with me when I say that the Bill is likely to receive the greatest possible attention in the other House. I myself had given an undertaking to the promoters that the Bill should be put down for Third Reading to-night in order that it might go to the other House and receive early consideration there; and I venture to think that after the patient hearing which has been given to it by a Committee of your Lordships' House, and after all the money that has been expended upon it, the least we can do is to give an opportunity for the Bill to be thoroughly thrashed out in the other House in time, if it is approved of, for it to become law this session. In the circumstances I regret that I cannot accede to the request of my noble friend.
LORD AYEBURY: My Lords, it appears to me that the speech which, has just been made by the Lord Chairman of Committees supplied an argument in support of my noble friend Lord Kinnaird's suggestion. This is a very intricate and difficult question; the Bill has been before a Committee of this House for a long time; yet it is placed on the Paper at a

823
moment's notice, and we are asked to give the Bill a Third Reading without being afforded any opportunity of seeing the Bill in its present form, of reading the evidence and examining its provisions. There is strong feeling out of doors that the old companies are placed at a very great disadvantage by this Bill. My noble friend Lord Camperdown, however, who presided over the Committee of your Lordships' House which considered this Bill, has been good enough to inform me privately that in his judgment the objections made by Lord Kinnaird have been met, and I hope he will say a few words, so that the House may know exactly how the matter stands.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I certainly did not intend to address your Lordships on this matter, but as the noble Lord behind me (Lord Avebury) has called upon me to do so, I do not mind saying a word or two with regard to the case of the existing companies. I believe Lord Kinnaird's complaint refers chiefly to the existing lighting companies which hold their powers under statute, and are liable to be purchased at the end of a term of years. I do not think it would be possible to go into the whole case here, and I am sure your Lordships would not be obliged to me if I were to give you even a short resume of the proceedings which, as the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees stated, occupied six weeks before the Committee, and I think we had something like thirty or forty counsel generally present. I will only say that, so far as the statutory companies are concerned, their case is met by a special clause in the Bill; and if my noble friend who raised the question to-day and the noble Lord behind me will discuss the matter with me privately, I shall be very glad to go into the question with them in detail. I hardly think your Lordships would be interested if I were to do so at the present time. But this I can say, that so far as the companies are concerned the Committee paid very special regard to their case; so much so that they called the attention of the promoters to the fact that they had not failed to observe that, without
824
some protection, there would be considerable hardship done to the companies whose undertakings were purchasable under statute, and a clause was devised and put forward which the Committee thought sufficiently met that hardship. I observe that when noble Lords oppose private Bills which have been before Committees of your Lordships' House, they do not, generally speaking, go to the Chairman or to any of the members of the Committee; they go to some of the opponents who have had their case heard and been defeated, and they take as gospel all that those opponents say to them. If we were to attempt to meet a case so stated it would necessitate a very long speech; but I hope your Lordships will consider that I have said sufficient to show that, in regard to this Bill, the interests of the statutory companies were very carefully considered.
LORD KINNAIRD: My Lords, it was my intention to move the rejection of this Bill, but I did not think that course would be respectful to the strong Committee which considered the Bill. I may inform the noble Earl that the companies are not quite satisfied with the clause which the Committee seem to think protects them. After what has been said, however, I will not take up your Lordships' time further. I have no doubt that in another place the interests of the companies will be looked after and an Amendment inserted which will adequately protect them.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed; and sent to the Commons.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
  Message from the Commons for leave for the Clerk of the Parliaments to attend to be examined as a witness before the Select Committee of that House. Leave given accordingly, and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
  FISHERIES (SCOTLAND).
  Twenty-third Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland, being for the year 1904. Part II. Salmon Fisheries.
  INDIA (ACCOUNTS AND ESTIMATES, 1905–1906).
  Explanatory Memorandum by the Secretary of State for India.
  IRON ORE DEPOSITS IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
  Reports on iron ore deposits in foreign countries, compiled at the Board of Trade from information collected by His Majesty's diplomatic and Consular officers.

  NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY.
  Forty-eighth Annual Report of the Trustees of the National Portrait Gallery, 1904–1905.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PRISONS (SCOTLAND) ACTS, 1860–1904.
  Rule made by the Secretary for Scotland appointing police cells at Inveraray, in the county of Argyll, to be a legal prison for the detention of prisoners for a period not exceeding three days before, or during, or after trial.

  IRISH LAND ACT, 1903.
  Treasury Minute; dated 30th May, 1905, directing that the Trust Fund Accounts of the Public Trustee under the Irish Land Act, 1903, shall be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE IRELAND (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]; CLOSING OF LICENSED PREMISES (CHRISTMAS DAY) (IRELAND) BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments. The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and
  826
  Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 102.)

  BILLS OF EXCHANGE ACT, 1882, AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to order). Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
  FINANCE BILL.
  Read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 103.)
  ADVERTISEMENTS REGULATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee with a further Amendment. The Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the Whole House, and by the Standing Committee, to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 101.)

  IMPORTATION AND SALE OF LIQUOR IN WEST AFRICA.
  THR LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYrose to call attention to the subject of the importation and sale of intoxicating liquor in West Africa, especially in Lagos and Nigeria; and to ask for information. He said: My Lords, I thought it my duty a few weeks ago to call attention in your Lordships' House to what seemed to me, and I think to all of your Lordships, to be an instance of quite exceptional and gross misrule and wrong-doing in Western Australia. I ask your Lordships to-night to give attention to a subject quite dissimilar in character, but, I think, more grave because our own responsibility is more directly involved. It relates not to Australia, but to the West coast of Africa.
  The region to which I wish to call your Lordships' attention is a large one. The circumstances and conditions of it various parts are, of course, not identical; but I desire to concentrate attention upon one portion only of that great region—the colony of Lagos and the protectorate of Southern Nigeria, with, in the background, the protectorate of No them Nigeria. I dare say your Lordships all remember what is the geographical lie, so to speak, of the region—that along the coastline there is the

  827
  colony of Lagos and the protectorate of Southern Nigeria, and that behind there is a hinterland quite separated from, the sea—the immense territory of Northern Nigeria, which is at present under somewhat different rules from either the colony of Lagos or the protectorate of Southern Nigeria. In Lagos and Southern Nigeria there is practically no restriction at this moment on the sale of liquor; there are regulations of a kind, but, as regards retail selling, there is almost absolute freedom; so much so that in some places liquor has become, strange to say, a sort of current coin of the country—it has become to some extent the actual coinage of the district. It is in Lagos and Southern Nigeria alone that the mischief that I desire to speak of at present exists in its entirety, but it is impending in Northern Nigeria, where at present the sale of liquor is absolutely prohibited, for as the railway approaches the frontier of Northern Nigeria the danger becomes great that by smuggling and in other ways liquor may be introduced into that region as well.
  From the first it has been recognised, in regard to those regions, that one of the great perils which would attend larger commercial intercourse with Europe would be the introduction of liquor in a manner that would be deleterious to the health of the individual natives and to the prosperity, therefore, of their community as a whole. I do not, however, propose to take your Lordships back into the history of long ago. I will ask you merely to go back six years. In the year 1899 a deputation from the "Native Races and the Liquor Traffic United Committee "was introduced to Mr. Chamberlain; and no more sympathetic supporter of the cause advocated by the opponents of the liquor traffic among natives is to be found than Mr. Chamberlain. The answers he gave were in every sense encouraging, and as the starting point of the modern problem I desire to quote the words which Mr. Chamberlain used. Mr. Chamberlain was then speaking as Colonial Secretary, and I assume that His Majesty's Government will not repudiate responsibility for what he said. Mr. Chamberlain used these words—
  "I think I need not say that I am well aware of the importance and the representative
  828
  character of the deputation and that you are probably well aware of my entire sympathy with your objects; in fact, I was at first inclined to doubt whether it was really worth your while to come here in order to push an open door, and to preach to one who is already converted. I do not think I am a fanatic, and no one, I hope, has called me a sentimentalist, and I am certainly not a teetotaler, I hope I am not extreme with regard to any subject; but I hold, as a matter of deep conviction, that the liquor traffic, and above all, the increase of the liquor traffic in West Africa amongst the native races, is not only discreditable to the British name, not only derogatory to that true Imperialism—the sentiment which I desire to inculcate in all my countrymen—but it is also disastrous to British trade."
  Mr. Chamberlain went on to speak of the question of the duty that is imposed. He said—
  "We have been asked to say what should be the maximum and what should be the minimum of duty, and we have unhesitatingly declared that in our opinion 4s, is the minimum which ought to be charged. As regards the maximum we have no maximum, because there is no maximum that can be proposed which we will not joyfully accept. I can only hope that other nations may be willing to take a similar view, in which case a very marked change would, we believe, take place in this traffic. … I agree with those who think that a special responsibility falls upon Great Britain, and, although I admit there is a great difficulty in the way of foreign competition in dealing with this subject, still I do not think that that difficulty is altogether insurmountable."
  That was Mr. Chamberlain's view, but he was only giving expression to an opinion which had already been most carefully formulated and expressed by a yet greater man—by Lord Salisbury himself some ten years before. Lord Salisbury, in reply to a similar deputation, which waited upon him on December 14th, 1888, said—
  "Undoubtedly you are not wrong in assuming that the sympathies of Her Majesty's Government are entirely with the objects of this deputation. It is a case that stands by itself. I need not inform you that I am not a temperance enthusiast myself. I do not coincide with many of the views which I hear urged with great confidence in this country. But the controversy here and the controversy with respect to the native races have nothing in common. The native races are for all practical purposes children, and, so far as we can do it, like children they must be protected. No one who even looks at history, still less at contemporary history, can doubt the extreme character of the evil which this unrestricted traffic causes. It has before this swept whole races away; it is now producing the gravest havoc in all parts of the world. We are so deeply convinced of that, that any efforts on our part would never be wanting, nor would

  829
  our attention for a moment relax, fur the purpose of inducing that common effort by which alone this miserable traffic can be restrained."
  So much, my Lords, for English statesmen; and I desire to rest my plea to-night upon the fact that those representative English statesmen did practically commit this country to a promise that we should protect these, as Lord Salisbury called them, children, these native races, from an evil which had been found so absolutely degrading.
  I would turn for a moment from the words of British statesmen at home to the words of those who in that country are the experts specially conversant with the problem that, as administrators, they have to deal with. Some of your Lordships may be familiar with an article on this subject contributed to the Nineteenth Century in April, 1897, by one of the greatest authorities on all that concerns West Africa—Sir Frederick Lugard; and that article from beginning, to end is one sustained and carefully-reasoned argument in favour of the strongest possible restraint being placed on the sale of liquor among the natives of West Africa. Sir Frederick Lugard is now Governor of Northern Nigeria, and has maintained absolute prohibition in that territory. Sir George Goldie and Sir Frederick Cardew, Governors each of them in turn of districts in Western Africa, have spoken as follows. Sir George Goldie said—
  "I speak from sixteen yean experience … and I say confidently that unless immediate steps are taken to stop this traffic—not by higher duties, but by absolute prohibition—
  I am not asking for that, but am quoting his words—
  "a state of things will soon be brought about that must ultimately lead to the entire abandonment of the country. … I cannot believe that the conscience of Europe will long allow that the vast populous regions of tropical Africa should be used only as a cesspool of European alcohol."
  Those are strong words, but they came from one who knew what he was talking about and who spoke from the fulness of knowledge. Sir Frederick Cardew said, in a speech at the Royal Colonial Institute, that—
  ''As to the liquor traffic I can fully endorse all that the lecturer has said, so far as my knowledge goes. … I feel convinced that if you would take away from the natives the liquor,
  830
  other wants would he created, and they would purchase other articles which would be far more remunerative to the British merchant.'
  Those are merely specimens, which could be multiplied almost indefinitely, of the opinions of those who have studied this subject as to the extent of the evil and the need of firm and decided action on the part of the British Government which is responsible for these portions of West Africa. To turn to a much lower level of capacity for understanding the problem, I would remind your Lordships that the Alake of Abeokuta, who recently visited this country, has appealed again and again to His Majesty's Government to protect him and his people from what he believes to be the curse which is harming them on every side.
  These are the bare facts, which I honestly think are indisputable, and I do not suppose for a moment that His Majesty's Government will deny what these authorities have said. On the other hand it is urged by those who are adverse to further restrictions that natives will certainly continue to drink intoxicants of their own manufacture irrespective of the drink that is imported. The answer to that is to be found in comparing any native village or tract of country in which natives confine themselves to home-made spirit with a tract of country in which European spirit, has been introduced. There is no comparison between the results of the one and the other. Then it has been said by some of those who, with the best possible intentions to be honest, are necessarily biassed by the fact that they have to be responsible for raising revenue in the country, which is a matter of extreme difficulty, that the percentage of drunkenness in Lagos and Southern Nigeria is less than in the slums of London. Of course, that is true, my Lords. If you take the whole population of Lagos and Southern Nigeria you are dealing with more than 2,000,000 of people, the greater part of whom have no possible means of getting access to this drink, and if for the purpose of percentage you distribute over that immense population the drink which is consumed by those to whom the opportunity has come the percentage to the population will, of course, be exceedingly small.

  831
  I am not asking for total prohibition, such as was asked for by Sir Frederick Cardew and others; total prohibition of the importation of liquor for the natives would be, I believe, an excellent thing, but, as I have said, I am not asking for that. I have no doubt it is practically impossible at this time of day to bring that about; but what I think we have a right to ask is that there shall be a genuinely high duty imposed so as to make it very difficult to import on a great scale for native consumption the deleterious stuff that is at this moment ladled out to them. It is, I think, indisputable that even the efforts which I do not for a moment deny the Government have made to raise the duty have not been to anything like the extent that they might have been. Mr. Chamberlain spoke of 4s. as the minimum which he desired to see, but after all the raisings that have taken place we have only reached 3s. 6d., and your Lordships well know that 3s. 6d., or 4s. even, is about one-third of the duty charged on most spirits in England. The Government can hardly be regarded as having done everything possible in the matter while that remains the rate of duty levied.
  These are, I think, the facts; but anyone who is unfamiliar with the subject may ask, How is the Government responsible? What can we practically do? The Government, of course, is omnipotent in those regions. It can do anything it pleases. I am not asking that it should do all it could, but that it should do more than it is doing at present. The Government have a double responsibility. In the first place, because they derive a revenue from the duties imposed on the liquor, and, in the second place, because it is by means of the Government rail road that to a great extent the liquor is being brought into regions where it was unknown before. The railway is Government property; the income of the railway, though I know it is not a remunerative concern at present, goes to the Government, and the outgoings on the railway are defrayed by the Government. This country has always held that there is no more civilising agency for the help of Africa than the introduction of railway communication, and that it is in the fullest sense of the word a civilising
  832
  agency; but if that railway is to be largely, or mainly, as it is, used for the bringing of liquor into regions where that kind of stuff has been unknown before, then I entirely decline to regard the railway as a civilising agency or something that is in the long run likely to do good.
  At this moment the railway goes 120 miles up country from the coast. Its construction has already been sanctioned to a place a good deal further; its name is, I think, Oshobo, and when it reaches there, it will be within easy touch of the frontier of Northern Nigeria, where prohibition is absolute, and into which it is at present difficult to smuggle liquor owing to the great distance of the territory from the coast and the lack of railway accommodation. But once the railway is brought up to the frontier there will be practically no difficulty in introducing this accursed stuff, which is sold as legitimate liquor, into Northern Nigeria, which is at present saved from its demoralisation. No returns are published of the traffic on the railway which would enable us to judge how much of that traffic is in liquor; but I have been told by one observer and another, by the man going about on business as well as by the chance traveller, that the main use of the railway appears to be the bringing up from the coast of enormous quantities of this liquor. The scale which it has attained is such that I am told that one at least of the mercantile firms concerned in it has built on Government land great sheds for the mere purpose of containing the cases of liquor which have been brought into the country for native consumption, and which are distributed by the firms that import it to the natives in the interior by means of the facilities. which we afford them. Of course, there are fairly high freights charged for the carriage of the liquor over the railway, but the cost is far less than the cost of porterage by native bearers for such long distances. The railway is, therefore, practically the sole means by which into the distant interior it is possible to convey the liquor on a great scale. In an Answer given in the House of Commons a fortnight ago the Colonial Secretary said that the rail-borne traffic bears an infinitesimal ratio to the total

  833
  imports. I do not deny that. The total imports cover all the liquor which is distributed along the coastline. I am speaking simply of the liquor that is carried into the interior. It is a small part, perhaps, of the whole; but the railroad is the only way by which the liquor can be profitably taken into the uncontaminated regions, and that being so the directors of the railway, and the Government at home and in the colony, are re-responsible for the traffic.
  Now, what is the liquor that is being thus imported? It is not English made; it is almost entirely German made; and for those who are dealing with questions between the two countries that question may very profitably be considered. I do not think myself that the point is of much consequence, but it is a fact that what we are facilitating is not the consumption of liquor made in England but liquor made from potatoes and other substances in Germany. This stuff, which is sold as gin or rum at a few pence a bottle, is of so poisonous a nature that no European would think for a moment of drinking it; and a friend of mine was informed by a doctor the other day that he was recently called to see a European, who, his own supply of liquor being exhausted, had for the first time taken some of the spirits sold to the natives, with the result that in three days he suffered from a most intense form of inflammation.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Duke of MARYBOROUGH): Where was that?
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: In Lagos or Southern Nigeria, I am not absolutely sure which. This testimony as to the character of the liquor will not, I imagine, be disputed. The quantity, again, is enormous. Statistics from the Gold Coast show that, whereas in 1889 506,000 gallons of this liquor were brought in, at a cost of £45,000, the quantity imported in 1903 was 1,238,000 gallons, the value of which was estimated at £133,000. The figures for Lagos are not quite so bad. The Colonial Secretary stated in the House of Commons recently that the importation of liquor to Lagos in the last two years had considerably fallen off. I do
  834
  not know from what Returns the right hon. Gentleman was quoting, but according to the Government Returns there has, so far as I can see, been an increase, for in 1901 the quantity brought, in was 948,000 gallons in 1902, 1,260,000 gallons; and in 1903, 1,084,000 gallons. Then, again, there is a matter which I do not wish to bring to the notice of the House in detail, but I am sure the noble Duke who represents the Colonial Office in your Lordships' House will know what I allude to when I say that facts have come to light in the last two years as to the illicit importation of liquor, which must be regarded as modifying any congratulation which may be felt respecting the quantities shown in the Government returns.
  What is the object with which we are constructing the railway there? It is, I presume, to increase legitimate trade. The proportion of liquor to other commodities carried on the railway is enormous, and the result is that the trade which we should desire to encourage is being cut out by the liquor trade. A trader stated the other day to a gentleman who repeated the conversation to me that for every £5 worth of cloth which he now sold, he sold £50 worth of liquor. That is the way in which the liquor trade is cutting out the rest; and although I do not dwell on the point, there are some of your Lordships who may care to be reminded that it is foreign-made liquor that we are importing at that rate. But this case rests, it seems to me, upon far bigger grounds. The unanimous testimony of every competent and unbiassed observer is that this liquor traffic has the most demoralising and degrading effect upon the natives. The whole character of the people is being lowered. I have received the following testimony within the last twenty-four hours from the man who perhaps knows better than anybody else what is going, on there—
  "Wherever I go, on the railway, on the Niger River steamers, in the towns on the coast, and in the interior, I sec unmistakable signs of the degrading demoralising character of this traffic."
  I could multiply evidence of that kind if it were necessary.
  Before I close I want to contrast what is happening in West Africa with what is

  835
  happening in South Africa. None of your Lordships who are familiar with South Africa will doubt for a moment the legitimacy and the desirability of the stern laws which have been passed to put down or to prevent the drink traffic among the natives of South Africa. I do not know whether your Lordships remember how stern those laws are. Under those laws anyone who sells, barters, or otherwise supplies any coloured person with any of the beverages mentioned in the Ordinance is, for a first offence, liable to imprisonment with or without hard labour, for a period of not less than six months and not more than twelve months, and at the discretion of the Court to a fine not exceeding £250. In default of payment of the fine, imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a further period of six months may be inflicted. For a second offence the penalties, in all respects, are doubled. For a third or any subsequent offence, the period of imprisonment is for not less than two years and not more than three, and a fine not exceeding £1,000, with imprisonment in default of payment of the fine, for a further period of not more than two years. Hard labour, as in the previous cases, may or may not be inflicted.
  Why is it that on the west coast of Africa we allow the coloured person to get as much absolute alcohol as he likes, even with the injurious proportion of 2·68 per cent. of fusel oil, while the one in the Transvaal is liable to find himself in gaol if he procures a glass of beer or spirits; and why should the illicit retailers in the Transvaal be stigmatised by Lord Milner as "undesirables" and be liable to such extreme penalties for selling liquor, while on the west coast no restriction whatever exists, no limit is placed upon the number of licences granted, and no inquiry is made as to the character of the licensee? It seems to me that we are either doing a gross wrong to the natives of South Africa in imposing such restrictions upon them, or else we ought to impose very different restrictions from those which obtain at present on the natives of West Africa, who are equally our fellow-subjects. That does not appear to me to admit of being
  836
  disputed, and I shall be glad to hear through the noble Duke what His Majesty's Government have to say about it.
  Lord Milner, in facing the problem in South Africa, spoke of it as one which must increase in difficulty as time goes on. He said—
  "The real fight has got to come, and it will be a great fight. All I can say is, that the Administration is thoroughly alive to the momentous importance of the question, and that it has the public opinion of the respectable majority of the European inhabitants solid at its back. The real difficulty, of course, is that in the control of the liquor traffic the Government has to employ hundreds of agents, and the profit to be derived from making natives drunk is so enormous that every one of these agents will be exposed to bribes—and very big bribes. But while I realise the difficulties, I also feel that we are bound, by hook or by crook, to overcome them. The whole credit of this Administration is at stake in the matter, and I feel confident that His Majesty's Government will support us in the view that no effort and no expense should be spared in carrying out a policy which, if successful, will mean a momentous Triumph for civilisation in this part of the world."
  I appeal to His Majesty's Government on behalf of the natives of West Africa for protective treatment of a similar kind to that given to the natives in South Africa. If we look back along English history it is a sad story we have to tell with regard to the relation of England to the natives of West Africa, and I do trust that your Lordships will agree with me in expressing the hope that His Majesty's Government will take care that in future it shall not be in another and a different sense a sad story still.
  THE DUKE or MAKLBOROUGH: My Lords, I have listened attentively to the speech of the most rev. Primate. He gave your Lordships a review of the quality of the liquor sold to the natives in West Africa, he commented upon the rate of charges on the railway, and he also offered some observations on the general administration and on the sale of liquor in our West African Colonies. I will deal first of all with the question of the quality of the liquor sold. But before I do so, let me assure the most rev. Primate that the principles and regulations laid down in regard to this matter by Mr. Chamberlain, and emphasised by Lord Salisbury, have not been modified by

  837
  the Colonial Office. I would remind the most rev. Primate that so far back as 1889, at the Brussels Conference, the question of the quality of the liquor was raised by the representatives of this country, and the German plenipotentiary maintained, on behalf of his Government, that the spirits which were manufactured in Germany were made on a large scale, that every care and supervision was exercised by the Government to see that no injurious matter was allowed to be placed in the bottles which contained these liquids, that the latest improvements had been employed in this manufacture, that the merchants were honourable men in high positions, and that the German Government themselves had never thought it their duty in any way to challenge their integrity. These were the representations which were made to His Majesty s Government by the plenipotentiary of the German Government.
  As the most rev. Primate reminded the House, Mr. Chamberlain was, in 1896, much exercised as to the question of the impurity of the spirits sold in West Africa. He consulted the chambers of sommerce with a view, first of all, to limiting the traffic, and, secondly, to improving the quality of the spirits. He was anxious that the Governors of the West African Colonies should take steps to see that the liquor that came into their ports was genuine, and not in any way adulterated. The result of the discussion between the late Colonial Secretary and the chambers of commerce was that a great number of samples—I think over sixty—were sent home from the different West African Colonies for examination. They were examined by the Board of Inland Revenue, and the Report which was issued upon that examination was to this effect—
  "The presence of these by-products is important as indicative of the general character and mode of the manufacture of the spirit, but their total quantity is small, and it is an open question to what extent the presence of a more than usual proportion of these by-products may injuriously affect consumers when the spirit is used in strictly limited quantity, or add to its toxic effects when drunk in excess."
  In other words, the result of the analyses of this liquor was to show that there were no injurious ingredients in it, and although
  838
  it is not claimed that it was of a very high quality, yet those who are experts in this matter were unable to point to any dangerous ingredients in it which were likely to do harm to those who drank it.
  The question of the impurity of the liquor was not lost sight of, and at the Brussels Conference of 1899 the matter was again brought up by the representative of this country, and the representative of the German Government assured us that the products employed in the manufacture of this liquor were perfectly pure, that the regulations and restrictions governing its production were as stringent and severe as they could be made, and that it was practically impossible for the manufacturers to produce such injurious liquor as it had been suggested had been the case. After considerable discussion the conference decided not to insist on the inclusion of any provision in the convention dealing with the adulteration of liquor. That, in rough outline, is the story of the efforts made by this country at these various conferences to ensure that the liquor sold should be of a good and pure character.
  I now turn to the specific case with regard to Lagos. Sir William MacGregor, as the most rev. Primate is aware, was Governor of Lagos up till about twelve months ago, and he addressed a message to the Legislative Council on the subject of impure alcohol, in which he said that a sample of alcohol lately sent in from a country market was, on analysis, found to contain a percentage of poisonous matter, and on the strength of this and other cases he intimated that he would ask the Legislative Council at an early date to consider a law dealing with adulterated or noxious food and drink. But he added—
  "It appears that the gin, rum, brandy, and whiskey imported is free of injurious ingredients."
  Sir William MacGregor considered that some of the liquor coming in was of an injurious character, and therefore he brought in an Ordinance which was passed in the following year, Clause 4 of which prohibited the sale of articles of food containing ingredients injurious to health; and there is a sub-section of

  839
  that clause which declares that for the purpose of this section spirits containing the article commonly known as fusel oil in certain proportion shall be deemed to be an article of food injurious to health.
  I understood the most rev. Primate to say that the liquor in Lagos is bad, and he told your Lordships of a European who drank some of it, and experienced most injurious results. I do not know, of course, whether the results were due to the liquor or to the fact that the individual in question was unaccustomed to very strong drink. But unless the most rev. Primate can show your Lordships that the stringent law which was passed by the late Governor of Lagos, and which is now in operation there, is either being evaded or that its enforcement is being negligently or improperly carried out, I do not think he can with reason say that the liquor which now goes into the colony is either impure or of an injurious character. So far as I am aware, there is no Ordinance in Southern Nigeria corresponding to that which was passed in Lagos; but if there are grounds for supposing that the quality of the spirits entering that territory is bad or harmful, we are perfectly willing to suggest to the authorities there that they should consider the advisability of bringing in an Ordinance similar in character to that which Sir William MacGregor passed in Lagos.
  I must, however, remind the most rev. Primate that in Southern Nigeria it is more difficult to exercise supervision over the liquor coming into that territory than it is in Lagos. The town of Lagos itself is practically the sole entrance into the colony, and on the spot there is a laboratory where the analyses and examination can take place, and so it is comparatively simple and easy to exercise supervision there. But in Southern Nigeria the Government would have to create more complicated machinery to secure the same successful results as those which we believe have been achieved in Lagos. I understood the most rev. Primate to say that in his opinion the colony was suffering seriously from the unrestricted importation of
  840
  liquor; indeed, his statement was that the colony was—
  "Degraded with drink."
  I do not think I can do better than quote the words of Sir William MacGregor upon the condition of Lagos. As the most rev. Primate is aware, Sir William MacGregor took the deepest interest in the welfare of the natives. He was ever solicitous for their well-being, and, a strong teetotaler himself, he might be considered as a Governor who would be exceptionally interested. In a report which he sent home in 1901 Sir William MacGregor said—
  "I had occasion to point out to the Legislative Council, in my message accompanying the Estimates of revenue and expenditure, that the consumption of spirits had diminished by about one-third in the last two years; that the spirit imported here is not adulterated; that I have seen no evidence whatever that the natives in this territory are, as a whole, in any way visibly affected by the spirits consumed by them. Since I made these statements I have visited and closely observed several provinces of the interior, and these visits confirm and strengthen what I stated to the Council."
  and after a lengthy report he went on to say—
  "I cannot pass by without remark the very strong expressions used in the letter of July by the Wesleyan Methodist Conference. I have looked here in vain for 'the ravages of the liquor traffic'.… I have visited and lived in many countries, but I have seen none in which the power of the vice of drunkenness is so conspicuous by its absence as here. I would ask these people to visit Lagos and then have a look at Glasgow and London."
  I am sure the most rev. Primate will give full weight to the views of Sir William Macgregor. Sir William had had long experience in the colony and knew what he was writing about; and I think we may take his views—we at the Colonial Office certainly do—as complete refutation of the exaggerated statements made.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I would remind the noble Duke that those whom I quoted were Colonel, now Sir, Frederick Cardew, for several years Governor of Sierra. Leone, and Sir George Goldie, founder and Governor of the Royal Niger Company. I assure the noble Duke that I was quoting from the best official information at my command, and not mere hearsay of a vague and unimportant kind.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: I quite appreciate the point of view of the most rev. Primate, but I cannot help feeling that Sir George Goldie, when he made the observations which the most rev. Primate has quoted, was associating that statement, not with the inhabitants of His Majesty's dominions, but probably of territories outside.
  Now let me turn to the question of railway rates, which exercised the mind of the most rev. Primate. The railway rates in Lagos are neither prohibitive in their character, nor are they so arranged as to encourage the transit of liquor along the line. They are based more or less upon what it would cost to carry the liquor by road over the same distance.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I can only say I am greatly surprised at that statement and that I think there is some mistake.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: I have in my hand a statement on the subject by Sir William Macgregor, who observes that the cost of the carriage of spirits from Lagos 120 miles up country is by rail 47s. a ton, and by canoe and carriers 40s. 4½d. If the railway rates were raised, as the most rev. Primate seems to desire, the only effect would be—and I think this is lost sight of—that the liquor would be carried by the road, and the railway would lose both the freight on the liquor and the freight on the native products given in exchange for the liquor, which would be brought back by the natives. In the case of the Gold Coast the rate for the transport of spirits was fixed at 50 per cent., above that for first-class goods—that is 3s. 9d. per ton per mile—in order not to offer facilities to this trade. But what has been the result? An extremely small amount of liquor has been carried on the railway. It has been carried by native porters. The railway has not only lost the freight on the liquor, but also the freight on the native products given in exchange for the liquor—and the natives have obtained the drink all the same. Although the railway rates may not be as high as the most rev. Primate would
  842
  wish, yet the rail-borne traffic in spirits undoubtedly shows a decrease, and it is infinitesimal compared with the amout of liquor imported. The most rev. Primate said he had been informed that in Lagos there was a gigantic traffic in liquor going on and that large sheds had been built specially to receive the liquor. I confess that that was a statement which I was amazed to hear, and it is one which we will certainly inquire into; but until it is verified I feel sure the most rev. Primate will allow me to accept it with a considerable amount of reserve.
  I will now give your Lordships the figures in regard to the importation of liquor into Lagos during the last few years. The most rev. Primate reminded the House that the Colonial Secretary had stated in another place that the amount of liquor imported into the colony during the last few years had diminished, and the most rev. Primate proceeded to quote figures which showed the reverse, but I venture to think he did not go far enough back. He only went back to the year 1900.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: Mr. Lyttelton's words were "for the last two years."
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: During the last ten years, since 1895, there has been a marked reduction. In 1895 there were 1,750,000 gallons imported; in the years 1900 and 1901 the amount imported each year was 1,000,000 gallons; in 1902 1,250,000 gallons, and in 1903 about 1,000,000 gallons. The most rev. Primate must remember that the population of Lagos is increasing, and the diminution in the amount of liquor imported, combined with an increase in the population, is a satisfactory point which must not be lost sight of. To-day there are about 3,000,000 inhabitants in the territory of Lagos, and if you divide that number by the number of gallons of liquor coming into the colony the average consumption amounts to one-third of a gallon per head per annum. I ask the most rev. Primate whether, in his opinion, that is an excessive amount.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: Does the noble Duke, in calculating his percentage, include the whole population, tens of thousands of whom are cut off from access to the liquor at all? I do not mean in Northern Nigeria, but in the other regions.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: No, I was speaking only of Lagos proper. The prohibition zone referred to by the most rev. Primate represents in population and area two-thirds of our West African possessiors. Outside that Zone, as the most rev. Primate admits, it is impossible to enforce prohibition. The liquor traffic; has grown up, and His Majesty's Government can only do their best to check and control it, but to exercise proper control international co-operation is necessary If there were higher duties in any region than in the surrounding countries smuggling could only be prevented by an expensive preventive service. It is the experience of those who reside in West Africa that if the native finds that liquor is being sold cheaper in a neighbouring country he goes there and purchases it and smuggles it into his own country, the Government of which loses the revenue on the liquor, but does not prevent the native obtaining it.
  The most rev. Primate asked how it was that there were not in West Africa stringent laws similar to those in force in South Africa. I think the answer is very obvious. In South Africa you have perfect control, you have a large dominion under British influence, and you can draw up and enforce a regular code of rules. But it would be impossible to enforce in West Africa the liquor laws that obtain in South Africa unless we were able to secure the hearty co-operation of the European Powers who are our neighbours there. The attitude of the Colonial Office has always been that we were ready to raise our duties on spirits if the other Powers would do the same. At the Brussels Conference of 1899 we did our best to get other Powers to agree to higher spirit duties, but our representations did not prevail. We also tried to induce the
  844
  conference to place a higher rate on spirits above a certain strength, to check the importation of what is known as concentrated alcohol, but again we were not able to induce the other representatives present to accept our view The view that the minimum rate should be 4s. has long been entertained by His Majesty's Government. It must nor be forgotten that even now the duties in the British possessions are higher than those in foreign possessions, and in recent years they have been considerably increased. Next year the International Conference will again meet. We shall certainly urge on that occasion as strongly as we have done before the importance of levelling up the rates, and we hope that those representations will receive more favourable consideration than they have hitherto. If we are able to induce the conference to accept our view, then I daresay the minimum rate will be as high as 4s., but, whatever the outcome of that conference may be, I can assure the most rev. Primate that His Majesty's Government are just as desirous as he is to see the drink traffic in our West African Colonies controlled, and, if possible, curtailed, and to see a proper and reasonable supervision exercised over the natives, so that they are not allowed to become the victims of the evils consequent upon the unrestricted traffic in. intoxicating liquors.
  LORD STANMORE: My Lords, I rise to make a practical suggestion, which may, perhaps, not be altogether unworthy of the attention of His Majesty's Government; and which, I hope, will receive the approval of the most rev. Primate, to whom the thanks of all those who wish to see an end put to the destruction of the native races by drink are due on this occasion for bringing forward the subject. My practical suggestion is this. Prohibitory laws such as those to which the most rev. Primate referred in South Africa are undoubtedly of great value, but there is considerable difficulty in enforcing them, and I believe it will be found that a far more efficacious remedy will be the passage of a law rendering the recovery of any debts incurred by natives for drink irrecoverable before

  845
  any Court. That is a system which I had the good fortune to work for about five years with the most marked success. The traders, who, after all, are, I suppose, the only persons who desire to keep up this disgraceful traffic, very soon left of supplying when they found they could not enforce payment by law. It was not the 1d. worth sold by the glass which paid them; they sold considerable quantities to native retailers. An Ordinance was passed which rendered these debts irrecoverable, and the sale and drinking of spirits in the colony of Fiji decreased year by year in the most marked manner. I therefore venture to throw out this practical suggestion as one which may contribute to the diminution of this traffic, which, as I have said, none but those engaged in it wish to continue.
  When I entered the House this evening, on my return from the Continent, I was quite unaware that this subject was going to be discussed. Had I known beforehand I should like to have said more on the subject; but as it is, I shall confine myself to this one practical suggestion. I cannot refrain from expressing my regret at hearing my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies appear to undertake a defence of the abominable stuff which we know is sold in Africa and other places as liquor. I was sorry to hear such a defence come from the Colonial Office, and to hear my friend, Sir William MacGregor, a total abstainer himself, and a man strongly desirous that all others should be abstainers, quoted as an authority for the goodness of the liquor and the little harm it did. The quotations which the noble Duke gave are no doubt perfectly correct. Sir William MacGregor is a fair and just man, and he thought it his duty to correct the exaggerated statements on the subject. But I think I can venture to say, without fear of contradiction, that Sir William MacGregor is one of those who would most hail effective restrictive measures for keeping liquor from, the native races.
  House adjourned at five minutes past Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.