Sitting of 2 August 1905

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
South Barracas (Buenos Ayres) Gas and Coke Company Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill [Lords]. Verbal Amendments made; Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Glasgow Corporation (Tramways Consolidation) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Glasgow University Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Paisley District Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Wemyss Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read a second time; to be considered upon Friday.
Metropolitan Electric Supply Company (Various Powers) Bill [Lords], Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Earl of Stamford's Cheshire Estate Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill to be read the third time.

PETITIONS.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION BILL.
  Petition from Walsall, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  COUNTY COURTS (PLAINTS AND SITTINGS).
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 1st August; Mr. Cochrane]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 284.]
  DEATHS FROM STARVATION OR ACCELERATED BY PRIVATION (LONDON).
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 24th March; Mr. Talbot]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 285.]
NATIONAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND)
  (TEACHERS).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 4th May; Mr. Dillon]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 286.]
  CHINA (No. 1,1905).
  Copy presented, of Report by Mr. A Hosie, His Majesty's Consul General at Chengtu, on a journey to the Eastern Frontier of Tibet (with a map) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  PAPERS LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  1. Adjournment Motions under Standing Order No. 10. Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed. [No. 287.]

  2. Closure of Debate (Standing Order No. 26). Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed. [No. 288.]

  3. Divisions of the House. Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.

  4. Public Bills. Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.

  1307

  5. Public Petitions. Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.

  6. Select Committees. Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.

  7. Sittings of the House. Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.

  8. Business of the House (Days occupied by Government and by Private

  Congested Districts County.

  Rural district.

  Poor rate per £ of valuation for

  Total poor rate per £ of valuation.

  Genaral purposes.

  Separate charges.

  County at large charges.

  Union charges.

  District charges.

  Total of Columns3, 4, and 5.

  Railway and harbour charges.

  Other charges.

  Total of Columns 7 and 8.

  (1)

  (2)

  (3)

  (4)

  (5)

  (6)

  (7)

  (8)

  (9)

  (10)

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  —(Mr. Thomas O'Donnell)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Staircases in Parliament Buildings.
  MR. RENWICK: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether it can be arranged to improve and enlarge the existing staircases leading from the Strangers' Smoke Room and the Terrace to the Lobbies; and can such staircases be covered with carpet or felt instead of the oilcloth they are at present covered with.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) The First Commissioner fears that structural
  Members). Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed. [No. 289.]
  9. Private Bills and Private Business. Return relative thereto [ordered 1st August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.

  CONGESTED DISTRICTS COUNTIES (IRELAND) (RATES.)
  Return ordered, "of Local Rates in Congested Districts Counties in Ireland during the years 1900 to 1905, in the following form:—
  difficulties would prevent the widening of these staircases. He is of opinion that where there is so large an amount of traffic linoleum is preferable to carpet or felt, as it is more cleanly.

  Men Recruited for Army in Ireland.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state how many [Army recruits have been obtained in Ireland for the half-year ended June 30th, 1905; and what was the number of men annually recruited for the Army in Ireland for the past ten years.

  1309
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The figures are as follows:—

  For Regular Army.

  Militia.

  During 1895

  2,991

  4,990

  During 1896

  2,796

  5,387

  During 1897

  3,858

  5,845

  During 1898

  4,094

  6,060

  During 1899

  3,987

  5,606

  During 1900

  4,040

  3,574

  During 1901

  3,778

  3,781

  During 1902

  4,691

  5,085

  During 1903, first nine month

  2,652

  4,222

  During 1903, last three month

  1,115

  1,218

  3,624

  5,440

  During 1904

  3,624

  4,611

  During six months ended 30th june, 1905

  1,362

  2,798

  The Wheat Supply of Great Britain, Germany, France, and Italy.
  DR. SHIPMAN: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade what were the average prices of wheat per imperial quarter in the United Kingdom, Germany, France, and Italy, respectively, at the end of June, 1905;

  United Kingdom.

  Germany.

  France.

  Italy.

  Average price of Wheat per imperial quarter at end of June, 1905

  31s. 8d. (English Gazette Price) 31s. 2d. (average import value during june)

  37s. 11d. (Berlin price) 35s. 1d. (Breslau price)

  41s. (official price)

  47s. 8d.

  Duty on imported Wheat per imperial quarter at end of June, 1905

  Nil.

  7s. 7d.

  12s. 3d.

  13s. 1d.

  Approximate percentage of imported Wheat in total Wheatsupply

  82 per cent.

  37.2 per cent

  2.9 per cent

  13.4 per cent

  (Cereal year 1903–4.)

  what were the duties on imported wheat per imperial quarter in each of these countries at that time; and what were the approximate percentages of imported wheat in the total wheat supply of each of these countries.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.)

  Wheat Grown in and Imported into the United Kingdom.
  DR. SHIPMAN: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade what were the amounts, respectively, for the year 1904 of wheat grown in the United Kingdom, the wheat imported into the United Kingdom from British Colonies and Possessions, and the wheat imported into the United Kingdom from foreign countries, showing how much came from each of the several countries, Colonies, and Possessions respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The estimated total produce of the wheat crop of the United Kingdom in 1904 was 4,740,000 imperial quarters. The total quantity of wheat imported into the United Kingdom during the calendar year 1904 from foreign countries amounted to 12,924,567 imperial quarters. The amount imported from British Colonies and Possessions was 9,891,350 imperial quarters. For more detailed information I must refer the hon. Member to the "Agricultural Statistics, 1901" [Cd. 2594], p. 88, and to the "Annual Statement of the Trade of the United Kingdom for 1904" [Cd. 2497], p. 211.

  Hours of Duty of Railway Signalmen—Surprise Inspections.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of introducing a systematic inspection of signalmen by surprise visits; whether he can arrange that in the more important signal boxes, where trains very frequently pass, a sufficient number of signalmen should be on duty, and also that the hours of service should be in ratio with the activity required; and whether the existing method of points and sidings will be considered with a view to greater safety.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) If representations are made on behalf of the signalmen at any particular place that their hours of duty are excessive, such representations will be dealt with under the Railway Regulation Act of 1893. The question of safety in the working of points and sidings is one that receives the unremitting attention of the inspecting officers of the Board of Trade.
  1312
  The other matters raised by the hon. Member do not seem to come within the powers of the Department.

  Lancashire Electric Railway Accident—Timing of Trains.
  MR. MARSHALL HALL: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he will direct the attention of the inspector appointed to hold the inquiry into the Hall Road accident to the following facts, viz.: that the local Hall Road train timed to leave Liverpool at 6 p.m. is due at Hall Road at 6.18, and the express train to which the accident occurred leaves Liverpool at 6.10 and is due at Southport at 6.37; and whether the inspector will be directed to report whether, having regard to the relative rate of speed of the two trains, sufficient time is allowed to the local train at. Hall Road to shunt into the siding before the express passes through; and how many seconds are allowed by the company's time tables to each stopping train on the Southport and Liverpool branch at intermediate stations for the purpose of setting down and taking up passengers.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The timing of these trains does not seem to have any direct bearing on the accident referred to, but I will bring my hon. and learned friend's Question to the notice of the inspecting officer who is holding the inquiry.

  Post Office Wages—Publication of Correspondence between Post Office and Treasury.
  MR. BAYLEY: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will lay upon the Table the correspondence which has passed between the Post Office and the Treasury on his scheme for wages in the Post Office.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I do not see that any useful purpose would be served by so doing. Full particulars of the alterations in the pay of the Post Office staff consequent on the proceedings of the Bradford Committee were furnished to hon. Members in the Return issued to the Order of the House in March last.

  Appointment of Assistant Postal Superintendent at Huddersfield.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE: To ask the Postmaster-General when the post of assistant postmaster at the Huddersfield Post Office, which has been vacant since October 31st last, and respecting which he stated in April last he hoped to come to a decision very soon, will be filled up; and what is the cause of the delay.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The vacancy referred to by the hon. Member is one for an assistant superintendent on the postal side, and I have now authorised the promotion of the officer who is now doing the duties. The promotion will date from the beginning of the year. The peculiar circumstances of the office, where there is a surplusage of telegraph force, have rendered the filling of this situation unusually difficult.

  Postal Facilities in the North of Ireland.
  MR. HEMPHILL: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, in compliance with the views submitted to him by the deputation which recently waited on him from the city of Derry and other Ulster municipalities, he has made any arrangements for the dispatch of an additional mail bag from the North via Greenore and Holyhead; and, if so, when will such arrangements be carried into effect.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) As I promised the deputation which called upon me with reference to this matter, I have instituted further inquiries on the question of using the Greenore route for the mail service between the North of Ireland and England. These inquiries are not yet complete, and I regret that I am not in a position to give a definite Answer to the hon. Member's Question.

  Irish Postal Officials and the Postal Telegraph Clerks' Association.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the repeated assurances of Postmasters-General that the staff have the right to combine, he will state why the local secretaries of the Postal Telegraph Clerks' Association at Armagh, Portadown, and Clones have been interfered with by the postmasters
  1314
  and surveying staff; and will he explain why an attempt is being made to stamp out the Postal Telegraph Clerks'Association in certain small towns in Ireland.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I have nothing to add to my letter of July 11th, 1905, in which I informed the hon. Member that the officer at Clones to whom he referred had no just ground of complaint. A similar Answer applies in the case of the officer at Portadown, and no complaint has reached me as regards Armagh.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will explain why the supervising officials made official inquiries with reference to the sender and object of a telegram handed in at Clones Rail Post Office on March 4th dealing with the work of the Postal Telegraph Clerks' Association.
  (Answered by Lo d Stanley.) The explanation for which the hon. Member asks was given in my letter to him of April 4th, 1905.

  British Trade in Madeira.
  MR. LAWRENCE: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether we have with Portugal any commercial treaty similar to that subsisting between that country and Germany; whether he is aware that British trade in Madeira is in jeopardy owing to special advantages conceded to or demanded by the Germans; and whether any steps are being taken by this Government to see that our trade has equal chances with other countries in Portugal.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) The Answer to the first Question is in the negative. His Majesty's Government are aware of the concessions to which the hon. Member draws attention, and are in; communication with the Portuguese Government.

  Reports on Progress of Egypt.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will consider the desirability of suggesting to Lord Cromer the expediency of writing Reports showing the progress of Egypt, on lines

  1315
  similar to the Reports showing the progress of India.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) His Majesty's Government see no reason to suggest any alteration in the form of Lord Cromer's annual Reports on Egypt and Soudan, which seem to them admirably suited to their purpose.

  Redistribution—Instructions to Boundary Commissioners as to Areas.
  SIR CARNE RASCH: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the instruction to Boundary Commissions on Parliamentary Redistribution will contain directions as to the areas; and, if so, whether such areas will be rural sanitary districts or petty sessional divisions.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The instructions to any Boundary Commissioners who might be appointed would, no doubt, contain directions as to the considerations to which regard should be had in determining the boundaries of electoral areas, but I am not at present prepared to say what these directions should be.

  The Late District Medical Officer to the Aylesbury Union.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will explain why a district medical officer of the Aylesbury Union, after being re-elected for twenty-three years in succession, has now, when sixty-four years old and eligible in one year for superannuation, been deprived of his appointment; and whether, in view of the Superannuation Act, 1896, he proposes to take any, and, if any, what, action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) Until recently the late medical officer did not reside in his district, and hence he was only appointed from year to year. I am not informed why, when an appointment had to be made this year, the guardians preferred to appoint the present holder of the office, but it was within their competence to do so if they thought fit. The matter is not one in which I can take any action.

  Powers of the Government to Prohibit the Exportation of Coal.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask Mr. Attorney-General if he can state what powers the Government possess to prohibit the export of coal; whence they are derived; and in what contingency they can be exercised.
  (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) This subject has been dealt with by recent legislation, the effect of which is as follows: Under the 8th Section of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1879, there is power by Proclamation or Order in Council to prohibit the exportation of arms, ammunition and gunpowder, military and naval stores, and any articles which His Majesty shall judge capable of being converted into or made useful in increasing the quantity of military or naval stores, provisions, or any sort of victual which may be used as food for man. Under the Exportation of Arms Act, 1900, there is power by Proclamation to prohibit the exportation of all or any of the following articles, viz.: arms, ammunition, military and naval stores, and any article which His Majesty shall judge capable of being converted into or made useful in increasing the quantity of arms, ammunition, or military or naval stores to any country or place named in the Proclamation whenever His Majesty shall judge such prohibition to be expedient, in order to prevent such arms, ammunition, military or naval stores being used against His Majesty's subjects as forces, or against any forces engaged or which may be engaged in military or naval operations in cooperation with His Majesty's forces. Coal suitable for use by vessels of war would fall under the category of naval stores in these enactments. The power conferred by the earlier of these enactments is general, and no special contingencies are prescribed for its exercise; the power conferred by the Act of 1900 may be exercised with regard to particular countries or places in the contingency mentioned in the Act.

  Deal and Walmer Castles.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what sum was realised by the recent sale at Walmer Castle, and out of what funds the

  1317
  castles at Walmer and Deal are maintained; is it proposed to throw open "Walmer Castle and grounds to the public; and, if so, will he state the estimated annual cost of upkeep, and from what source the outlay will be derived.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) I am unable to state the amount realised by the sale of articles, the property of the late Lord Warden. The sale did not take place at Walmer Castle. Deal and" Walmer Castles are now maintained out of Civil Votes. Walmer Castle and grounds have been open to the public since June 12th last. The annual

  Name of School.

  1901–2. Fuel,Light, and Cleaning

  1902–3. Fuel,Light, and Cleaning.

  1903–4.

  1904–5.

  Fuel and Light.

  Cleaning.

  Fuel and Light.

  Cleaning.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  Lemreway Public School

  1

  8

  9

  1

  10

  0

  1

  10

  0

  —

  —

  1

  10

  0

  Achmore Public School

  1

  8

  9

  1

  18

  1

  1

  1

  9

  —

  —

  1

  10

  0

  Airidhbhruaich Public School

  1

  18

  4

  2

  0

  0

  2

  0

  0

  —

  —

  2

  0

  0

  Balallan Public School

  3

  17

  6

  4

  3

  0

  4

  0

  0

  —

  —

  4

  3

  0

  Cromore Public School

  1

  8

  9

  2

  5

  0

  2

  0

  0

  —

  —

  2

  0

  0

  Fidigary Public School

  4

  0

  6

  4

  0

  0

  4

  3

  0

  —

  —

  4

  3

  0

  Graver Public School

  1

  18

  4

  2

  0

  0

  2

  0

  0

  —

  —

  2

  0

  0

  Grimshader Public School

  1

  8

  9

  1

  10

  0

  1

  10

  0

  —

  —

  1

  10

  0

  Kershader Public School

  2

  7

  11

  2

  10

  0

  2

  10

  0

  —

  —

  2

  10

  0

  Knock-ian-due Public School

  1

  6

  4

  2

  16

  0

  2

  10

  0

  —

  —

  2

  10

  0

  Lurebost Public School

  2

  17

  6

  3

  0

  0

  1

  10

  0

  —

  —

  3

  0

  0

  Planasker Public School

  1

  8

  9

  1

  10

  0

  1

  10

  0

  —

  —

  1

  10

  0

  Total

  25

  10

  2

  29

  2

  1

  26

  4

  9

  —

  —

  28

  6

  0

  Previous to 1903–4 the charges for fuel, light, and cleaning were required to be entered under one heading in the school returns. In that year the item "Cleaning" was made a separate heading, but it seems, from an examina
  cost of upkeep will probably be about £500, to be met out of Votes of Parliament.

  Firing, Lighting, and Cleaning of Lemreway School and Public Schools in the Parish of Lochs, Island of Lewis.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord-Advocate if he will state what sum is paid annually for firing, lighting, and cleaning, respectively, at the Lemreway Public School, and at each public school in the parish of Lochs, Island of Lewis.
  (Answered by Mr, Scott Dickson.) The following table gives the particulars required by the hon. Member for. the last four years:—
  tion of the returns of their schools, that the Lochs School Board have continued the practice of making, under one or other of the present headings, one entry only in respect of the three charges.

  Deaths from Fire in Factories and Workshops.
  MR. TENNANT: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can grant a Return of the deaths from fire in factories and workshops during the last five or ten years.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The figures before 1901 are not available, and could only be procured by a very laborious search among the accident reports. The number of deaths caused by the burning of premises, as reported by the factory inspectors, in each of the years 1901 to 1904 were as follows, seven, twelve, three, and seven.

  Sale of Cooper's Hill Engineering College.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAG-GREE: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the premises and apparatus of the Royal Engineering College at Cooper's Hill are to be sold after the closing of the college, or are to be transferred to any other Department of State; what has been the total expenditure defrayed from the Indian revenues on the buildings and apparatus; and whether the Indian Exchequer will be recouped the present market value of the whole property.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Negotiations for the sale of the college are in progress, but no contract has yet been made. The total capital expenditure from Indian revenues on buildings and apparatus since 1870 has been about £170,000. No sum has yet been agreed upon for the sale of the property.

  Treasury Finance.
  MR. FIELD: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can explain the policy of the Treasury in postponing the payment of its debts and increasing balances; and whether, seeing that the total receipts, including payments on Exchequer bonds, are greater and the expenditure less than at a similar date last year, he can explain why, under these circumstances, Treasury bills are renewed.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) In order to avoid an undue amount of
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  borrowing in December next, when a very large amount of Exchequer bonds has to be paid off, the balance in the Exchequer has to be gradually built up. and thus it seems to be unnecessarily large during the first eight months of the financial year.

  Appointment of Chaplains to Belfast Workhouse Sanatorium.
  Mr. JOSEPH DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary tc the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Belfast Board of Guardians, at their meeting on July 25th, 1905, rejected a motion in favour of the appointment of chaplains to the workhouse sanatorium; whether the Local Government Board had, in a letter dated May 15th last, requested that these chaplains should be appointed; and, if so, whether he proposes to direct that the recommendations of the Local Government Board be complied with immediately.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The appointment of chaplains for the auxiliary workhouse of the Belfast Union devolves upon the Local Government Board under Section 48 of 1 and 2 Vict., cap. 56, and the necessary steps are being taken in the matter.

  Overcrowding of Insane Wards in Belfast Workhouse.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the overcrowding of the insane wards in the Belfast Workhouse, due to the fact that the Belfast Corporation refused to supply the necessary asylum accommodation for the patients, and whether this overcrowding was denounced by the official Inspector of Lunacy in December, 1904, who recommended that inexpensive asylum accommodation should be provided for these patients elsewhere; and whether, seeing that in spite of the official recommendation nothing has been done by the corporation in the matter, and that the number of these patients at the workhouse is increasing, he will order an inquiry into the subject, or cause effective representations to be

  1321
  made to the local authorities with regard to it.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The number of insane inmates of Belfast Workhouse has, in recent years, been greatly reduced by the transfer of such persons to the Belfast District Lunatic Asylum. Since 1898 the number of insane in the workhouse has been reduced from 436 to ninety-six. In December, 1904, the Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums recommended that inexpensive buildings should be erected in connection with the asylum for the accommodation of the insane inmates of the workhouse. The necessary buildings are now in course of erection.

  Free Railway Passes for Irish Members Travelling to and from the House of Commons.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will consider the advisability of arranging, by legislation or otherwise, that Irish Members shall be enabled to travel free to and from the House of Commons during the session, seeing that such an arrangement prevails respecting Members of Parliament in the Colonies.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) It does not rest with me to consider the question of the feasibility or otherwise of making such arrangements.

  Corporal Punishment Rules—Meeting of National Education Commissioners.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what was the date of the meeting and the number of National Education Commissioners present when the new rules with reference to corporal punishment in national schools were drafted and directed to be issued.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The date was December 6th, 1904. Fourteen Commissioners were present out of a possible seventeen.

  Average Attendance and Equipment of Model Infants and Harryville Girls' Schools, Ballymena.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland
  1322
  if he can state what was the average attendance in the model infants and Harryville Girls' Schools, Ballymena, for the month of June last; what is the accommodation, allowing ten square feet per pupil; and whether the three girls' schools, stated to have accommodation for 104 pupils more than were in average attendance in the month of June last, are supplied with suitable desks, kindergarten, and other equipment necessary for the teaching of infants.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The average attendance for June was, in Ballymena Model Infants' School, eighty, and in Harryville Girls' School, 213. Allowing ten square feet of floor space per pupil, there is accommodation in the former school for eighty-one, and in the latter for 224 pupils. But on the basis, hitherto adopted, of eight square feet per pupil, there is accommodation in these schools for 101 and 280 pupils respectively. One of the three schools referred to in the reply to the hon. Member's Question of July 24th,† has suitable kindergarten desks and equipment necessary for infants, but the other two have not. On the completion of the Guy's Infant School, towards the cost of which a grant has been made by the Commissioners, there will be ample suitable accommodation for the teaching of infants in Ballymena.

  Corporal Punishment Rules.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the head teacher in a national school is obliged to make seven entries in the record book before he inflicts corporal punishment; and whether, considering the waste of time, he will consider the advisability of having the rules with drawn altogether.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Commissioners have found it necessary to make regulations requiring that a book shall be kept in which all corporal punishment inflicted on children shall be recorded. A similar book is used in elementary schools in England. The entries referred to include the name of the pupil, the standard, the date, the
  † See page 37.

  1323
  nature of the punishment, and the teacher's signature. The Commissioners have no intention of withdrawing these regulations.

  Altmore Estate, Letterkenny.
  MR. LIDDELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain the cause of the delay on the part of the Estates Commissioners in dealing with the Altmore Estate, Letterkenny, the property of Mr. E. C. Mansfield; if the Estates Commissioners will, after twelve months, now communicate their decision either to accept or to decline the offer to purchase this property; how many inspections of it they have already made; and what has been done since the date of the last.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) An originating application in respect of the direct sale, by landlord to tenants, of the estate of Mr. E. C. Mansfield was lodged on July 15th, 1905. Previously the Commissioners had, at the request of the owner, caused a preliminary inspection to be made of the demesne on the estate for the purpose of ascertaining what amount could be advanced upon it. The inspector's report was received on December 1st, 1904, and the result communicated to the landlord. The application which has now been received will be taken up in order of priority. There has been no delay on the part of the Commissioners.

  Accounts of late Staff Officer of Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will give particulars as to the dates upon which the bank pass book and accounts of the late staff officer of the Royal Irish Constabulary Office were checked and audited, within the four years prior to his death, and as to what proof had been brought forward to show that the receipts furnished to the late staff officer by members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, to whom certain moneys were paid, were themselves genuine; and whether he will consider the advisability of granting some allowance, as it were deferred pay, to the widow of this
  1324
  deceased officer, considering the amount deducted from the amount of life assurance accruing to him as the result of the ex parte charge of falsification brought against him.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I beg to refer to the very full replies which I have given to the hon. Member's previous Questions on this subject. The Government have already more than once expressed the opinion that the applications made on behalf of the widow were not such as to warrant the expenditure of public money. I may add that the widow of the deceased and her solicitor were afforded full opportunity of satisfying themselves of the misappropriation of funds.

  The "Western News" and the Ballinasloe Urban District Council.
  MR. ROCHE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, although the Local Government Board had issued a sealed order excluding the representative of the Western News from the meetings of the Ballinasloe Urban Council, a magistrate of the Ballinasloe district has signed summonses charging councillors for putting the order in force; and whether, in view of the inconvenience and expense caused to defendants, he will say what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Local Government Board, acting upon a resolution of the Ballinasloe Urban District Council, have issued a sealed order to the effect stated, under the powers conferred on them by Section 15 of The Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1902. I am informed that a summons, at the suit of the proprietor of the Western News, has been issued against five members of the council for conspiring to injure him in his trade. The Government cannot interfere with magistrates in the discharge of their judicial functions.

  Missionary Work in Chinese Compounds in the Transvaal.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official

  1325
  information showing that the promises made by ministers of religion in the Transvaal before the introduction of Chinese labour, with reference to future missionary work in the compounds, have been fulfilled.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I am not in possession of official information as to the matter. Inquiries were being made in September last among the Chinese whether they desired the services of Christian ministers, but I am not aware with what result.

  Marconi Wireless Telegraphy in the Army.
  SIR SBYMOUK KING: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, when the contract between the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company and the Admiralty was negotiated, the Admiralty were prohibited from extending the benefits of their contract to the Army; whether similar privileges and Tights were secured at the same time for the Army; and, if so, to what extent have they been availed of.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) I am informed that the Admiralty are pledged not to extend the benefits of their contract with the Marconi Company to other Departments. As regards the rest of the Question, no rights or privileges have been secured for the Army from the Marconi Company.

  Suggested Retiring Allowances to Patrick Leary and James Russell, Militiamen, of Longford.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the cases of Patrick Leary and James Russell, of Longford, both of whom have served in the Militia for a period of thirty-five and twenty-three years respectively; and whether, as their conduct was good, there is any fund available from which to give them a gratuity at the close of their service.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) I am glad to have my attention drawn to the long service of the Militiamen mentioned. The regulations, however, do not admit of the grant of
  1326
  any retiring allowance or gratuity at the expiration of Militia service.

  Duties, Emoluments, and Rights of Patronage of Warden of the Cinque Ports.
  Mr. WEIR: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state the duties of the Warden of the Cinque Ports; and what emoluments or rights of patronage are derived from the office.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) 1. There are now practically no important duties which the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports has to exercise individually except those of the chairman of the Dover Harbour Board. 2. The emoluments arising from the office are practically confined to certain Admiralty droits, the amount of which is insignificant. Walmer Castle is now no longer available for use as a private residence. 3. The patronage attached to the office, speaking generally, consists—(i.) Of the right to appoint the Judge of the Cinque Ports Admiralty Court, the Registrar of the Cinque Ports, and the Marshal of the Court; (ii.) The right of appointing Salvage Commissioners at each Cinque Port; (iii.) The nomination of magistrates for appointment by the Crown; (iv.) The appointment of a deputy to act as chairman of the Dover Harbour Board in case of his absence.

  Lincolnshire and the Redistribution Proposals.
  SIR CHARLES WELBY: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that the county of Lincoln has from time immemorial been divided into three parts, viz., the Parts of Lindsey, Kesteven, and Holland; that each of these parts is a separate county for the purposes of local government; and that they contain, in round numbers, four-sevenths, two-sevenths, and one-seventh, respectively, of the population of the county, exclusive of the large boroughs; whether he is aware that Lincolnshire has now seven Parliamentary divisions, the boundaries of which follow in the main the boundaries of the three parts; whether, under the scheme of the Government, it is proposed, while preserving the borough of Boston, with 20,456 population, to abolish a county divison with a population of some

  1327
  50,000, thus obliterating, for Parliamentary purposes, the historic division of the county into parts; and whether he will consider the alternative of making the borough of Boston the centre of a county division and thus bring up the average population per division to some 53,000, and the total population of the county to some 370,000, at which figure it would, under the scheme, be entitled to retain its seven Members.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) Lincolnshire is and has been divided into three parts, viz., the Parts of Lindsey, Kesteven, and Holland. Each of these parts is a separate administrative county for the purposes of local government. Exclusive of the two county boroughs of Lincoln and Grimsby and the extramunicipal areas attached to these county boroughs to form the two Parliamentary boroughs of Lincoln and Great Grimsby, the aggregate population of the three parts, according to the Census of 1901, is 370,073, made up as follows:—

  Lindsey (exclusive of the two boroughs)

  188,501

  Kesteven (including Grantham)

  103,962

  Holland (including Boston)

  77,610

  370,073

  One-seventh of 370,073 is 52 867.
  Lindsey has therefore less than four-sevenths of the total population. Kesteven has therefore nearly two-sevenths of the total population. Holland has therefore more than one-seventh of the total population. The Parliamentary county of Lincoln as at present constituted his a population of 330,452, and seven Members. The average population per Member being 47,207. The historic divisions of the county wire deviated from to some extent in 1885. It does not seem impracticable if the county (minus Boston) is divided into six divisions, as proposed in the Government scheme, to observe more strictly than at present the historic divisions referred to, but this would be a matter for inquiry. If the Parliamentary borough of Boston were merged in the county, the Parliamentary county, with a population of 370,073, would be entitled under the Government scheme to
  1328
  six Members only. To entitle it to retain its present seven Members the population would have to be more than 390,000, i.e., six times 65,000. If the Government scheme was modified by merging Boston in a county division, as proposed, the number of the Lincolnshire borough Members would be reduced to two; whilst the number of the county Members would be six as under the scheme, eight. But under the scheme, as it stands, the total number of the Lincolnshire Members would be nine, viz., six county Members and three borough Members.

  Lancashire Cotton Industry—Gambling Operations.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that, in consequence of the disorganisation of the cotton industry, mainly due to gambling operations in Liverpool, artificially raising the price of American cotton to 6d. a pound, the Federation of Master Employers in Lancashire have refused to meet the operatives demand for a rise in wages; and that, as a result, the operatives have threatened to send in notices for a general strike, to begin next month; whether he is aware that it is officially proved that the cause for this advance in the price of raw material is the outcome of misrepresentation in statistics and returns, and that President Roosevelt has ordered an official investigation; and whether he will confer with President Roosevelt with the object of adopting some international co-operative endeavour to prevent the evils arising from gambling operations in options and future contracts.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that the Lancashire Federation of Master Cotton Spinners on the 19th of July issued a circular appealing to the spinners on the Continent to co-operate with them in an endeavour to checkmate the manipulation of cotton by speculators; whether he is aware that, in the opinion of the Manchester Cotton Exchange, unless the designs of speculators are defeated, the cotton-spinning industry may again experience unprofitable trade, which would render necessary the adoption of short-time working; that the

  1329
  chairman of the International Cotton Committee has summoned a meeting, to be held in London on the 31st inst., to consider what recommendations should be made to counteract the operations of I gambling in the raw material; and whether he can state what steps, if any, the Government intend to propose to safeguard the welfare of the cotton industry.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) In reply to these two Questions, I fear I can only refer the hon. Member to the Answers I have previously given him, as I have really nothing to add to them.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Naval Works Acts Annuities.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can give an estimate of the amount of the annuities under the Naval Works Acts, chargeable to Vote 10, in each of the six financial years following the present.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAV,: The estimated amount of the annuity in 1906–7 is £1,115,800. It is not possible at present to estimate the amounts for the succeeding years, but it is probable that by 1911–12 the amount of the annuity will have risen to £1,500,000.

    The War Secretary's Conference with Volunteer Officers.
    COLONEL PILKINGTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether a report in shorthand was taken of the proceedings at the meeting which he held with Volunteer officers at the House of Commons on Friday, 28th July; and, if so, whether he will arrange for the printing and circulation among Volunteer commanding officers of a transcript of such report.
    THE SECRETARY OP STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,: A report was made for the information of the Army Council. Personally I should be very glad to issue the
    1330
    report, as I believe that its publication would do nothing but good; but I confess I am doubtful whether it is altogether in the interests of Volunteer officers that such publication should take place. The recent meeting was a private one, and derives its value from; he freedom with which the officers present made suggestions and expressed; heir opinions. I am by no means certain that subsequent meetings would have the same value, if those taking part. n them were aware that they were appealing to the public, nor am I confident that such a proceeding would be in the best interests of discipline.

    Rifle Ranges and Ammunition for Volunteers.
    MR. RENWICK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state if any, and what, progress has been made during the last six months in the provision of an increased number of rifle ranges for Volunteer corps, and more plentiful and cheaper supply of ammunition than is possible under the existing regulations.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: As regards ranges fifteen have been opened during the last six months and the construction if nine more has been approved and has been commenced. As regards ammunition, my hon. friend's suggestion to supply further ammunition gratuitously would involve the expenditure of public money which is not at present available.
    MR. RENWICK: I did not ask for gratuitous supplies of ammunition.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: It is now supplied at the lowest price the War Office can produce it, and the supply must be either at that rate or gratuitous.
    MR. RENWICK: Are these new ranges for the Volunteers?
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Yes, they are for the Auxiliary Forces.

    The Guards' Headdress.
    MR. RENWICK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it can be arranged that during the

    1331
    existing hot weather lighter headgear than the regulation busbies be worn by the Guards on sentry and guard duty at the Royal palaces and Government offices.
    COLONEL LOCKWOOD: Is it not the fact that the term busby has never yet been applied to the headdress of the Guards, and is the bearskin not much more useful in keeping out wet, cold, and heat than any other form of headdress?
    MR. RENWICK: I mean, of course, the picturesque but barbarous headdress that is at present worn by the Guards.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I had anticipated the indignant protest of my hon. and gallant friend. According to the Regulations, full dress, with full dress headdress, must be worn by Guards on Royal residences and in London. There is no other full dress headdress for the Brigade of Guards than the bearskin cap, and this is considered to afford perfect protection from the sun. It is not contemplated to make any change.

    Army Contracts.
    MR. CROOKS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a firm of contractors are working on orders for his Department excessive hours, while the workshops in the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, are standing idle and men being discharged who usually execute this kind of work; and will he endeavour to proportion the orders in such a way so as to obviate the necessity of discharging men from the Royal Arsenal.
    MR. J. F. HOPE: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the men of Sheffield are as liable to hunger as the men of Woolwich?
    MR. CROOKS: Well, that is strange. We do live and learn.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I am not aware of the facts related, but if the hon. Member would kindly give me the name of the firm and the nature of the work to which he alludes I will have the matter inquired into. The necessity for the
    1332
    discharge of men from the Royal Arsenal is much regretted, but under present circumstances it is unavoidable.

    War Office and Motor-Cars.
    SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if his Department are in negotiation with a Mr. Leinkhauf, or anyone else, to purchase 350 or any less number of motorcars abroad for War Office use; and, if so, whether any opportunity will be given to English houses to compete for the order.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The War Department is not in negotiation with anyone to purchase motor-cars abroad for War Office use.

    Epizootic Lymphangitis.
    MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state the approximate date from which South African horse disease recently appeared in Great Britain; the number of Army horses affected; the districts in which the disease has been and is at present; the number of horses slaughtered; and the number of stables closed, and shows and race meetings stopped, in Great Britain because of the outbreak of this disease.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Epizootic lymphangitis appeared in Great Britain in August, 1902. Up to July 31st, 1905, there have been 533 cases of Army horses affected, and of these 419 have been slaughtered. Detailed information as to the military districts in which the cases have occurred will be given in a Return recently promised in another place. As regards the last part of the Question, the actions referred to do not fall within the province of the Secretary of State for War.
    MR. CULLINAN: Does the right hon. Gentleman deny the facts set out in this Question?
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I know nothing about them.
    MR. CULLINAN: What Department is responsible then?

    Chinese Coolies in the Transvaal.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, having regard to the fact that there are now 40,000 Chinese coolies on the Rand, and to the fact that Sir George Farrar, in commending the introduction of the Chinese coolies to the people of the Transvaal, mentioned from 20,000 to 30,000 coolies as the limit of requirement, to the fact that Lord Lansdowne, in another place, gave the assurance, on February 12th, 1904, that the proposal of the Government was to try the experiment of introducing Chinese coolies to the Transvaal on a limited scale, and to the fact that constant rioting is taking place among the coolies, he will now put a limit to the further importation of Chinese coolies into the Transvaal.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by me to a Question of his of similar tenor on February 23rd.† It is not the fact, according to my information, that constant rioting is taking place among the coolies.
    DR. MACNAMARA: Having regard to the facts set out in the Question, will the Government now put a limit to this importation?
    MR. LYTTELTON: I have nothing to add to my previous Answer to that Question.
    DR. MACNAMARA: Then the purport of the Answer is that it is intended to continue the importation of Chinese coolies.
    MR. LYTTELTON: That depends entirely upon the necessities of the mines, and on the opinion of the Transvaal Government.

    Grant to Northern Nigeria.
    MR. EMMOTT (Oldham): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the statement in Cd. 2564 that the
    † See (4) Debates, cxli., 1092.
    1334
    Parliamentary grant for 1905–6 to Northern Nigeria is £375,000, whilst the grant-in-aid in our own Civil Service Estimates, page 456, is stated to be £320,000; and what is the explanation of this apparent discrepancy.
    MR. LYTTELTON: A note should have been added to the estimates for Northern (and I may add Southern) Nigeria, printed in Cd. 2564, to the effect that the figures there given were subject to revision. The correct amount of the grant-in-aid is £320,000.

    Treatment of Chinese Coolies in British North Borneo.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the conditions under which Chinese coolies are employed in British North Borneo are subject to any pledge given to the Chinese Government to the effect that corporal punishment should not be inflicted upon Chinese coolies; and, if not, will he consider the expediency of securing for these coolies labour rights which will exempt them from flogging.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OP STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,: So far as the British North Borneo Company are aware, no pledge has ever been asked for by, or given to, the Chinese Government with regard to the flogging of coolies in British North Borneo.
    MR. WEIR: Are we to understand that there is continual flogging of these poor unfortunate individuals?
    EARL PERCY: I have no information, on the point.
    MR. WEIR: Will the noble Lord inquire?
    EARL PERCY: If the hon. Member can submit any facts calling for inquiry I will make it.
    MR. WEIR: Do you want me to go to British North Borneo?

    Corridor Railway Carriage Exits.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether the attention of the Board has been called to the growing practice of railway companies of substituting for carriages with compartments of six or more seats and two side doors affording prompt means of exit, long carriages with a narrow corridor with a much smaller proportion of, and, in some cases, no side doors, the result being impossibility of quick exit, and, in case of accident, consequent danger to the passengers; and whether it is proposed to take any steps in the matter in the interests of public safety.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW,: The Board of Trade are aware that the use of corridor carriages with few or no side doors is increasing on railways, but no accident is known to have occurred, or to have been aggra-ated through the absence of side doors. It may be pointed out that in the case of most tube railways no use could be made of side doors, if provided, in the event of an accident occurring in the tube. The Board of Trade do not as at present advised consider any action to be necessary, but the whole question will be carefully watched.

    Staircases in Parliament Buildings.
    MR. RENWICK: I beg to ask the hen. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether it can be arranged to improve and enlarge the existing staircases leading from the Strangers' Smoke Room and the Terrace to die Lobbies; and can such staircases be covered with carpet or felt instead of the oilcloth they are at present covered with.
    LORD BALCARRES: The First Commissioner fears that structural difficulties would prevent the widening of these staircases. He is of opinion that where there is so large an amount of traffic linoleum is preferable to carpet or felt, as it is more cleanly.

    Examination in Languages for Candidates for Certificates as Teachers in English Schools.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education what are the languages, other than English, included in the syllabus for the preliminary examination for the certificate in 1907, which is to take the place of the King's scholarship examination.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University): No language other than English is compulsory. Candidates are at liberty to offer one or two languages as optional subjects. The languages which may be thus offered are Greek, Latin, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Welsh, Hebrew. If two languages are offered, one of them must be one of the first four mentioned.
    MR. BOLAND: Is there anything to prevent the Irish language being included?
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: No candidates have yet offered themselves for examination in Irish.
    MR. BOLAND: If some do, will the hon. Baronet consider the advisability of including it?
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: Yes, Sir.

    Cruisers Employed on Sea Police Duty.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate if he will state the names of the cruisers now employed on sea police duty, their speed, tonnage, and the districts they respectively patrol, specifying which vessels are provided with search-lights.
    THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,: The names, speed, and gross tonnage of the vessels employed on sea police duty are—

    "Vigilant"

    11 knots

    185

    "Brenda"

    12½ knots

    174

    "Minna"

    12¾ knots

    281

    "Freya"

    12½ knots

    280

    The cruisers have no specific district to patrol, their stations being changed

    1337
    periodically. All except the "Vigilant" are provided with search-lights. In addition to the above-named cruisers H. M. S."Harrier" is available for similar duty.

    Scottish Congested Districts and the Mansfield Commission Recommendations.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether he is yet in a position to state to what extent the Secretary for Scotland proposes to apply the recommendations of the Mansfield. Commission to the Island of Lewis and Western Highlands.
    MR. SCOTT DICKSON: The Secretary for Scotland hopes to be in a position at an early date to intimate to what extent he can give effect to the recommendations of Lord Mansfield's Commission both in the counties of Sutherland and Caithness and generally in the congested area.

    The Fishery Cruiser "Norna"
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate, having regard to the fast that the Fishery Board cruiser "Norna" was recently sold for £550 owing to the size and design of the vessel not being adapted to face the rough weather which fishery cruisers have to face in superintending the fisheries, will he state in what year this vessel was purchased, and at what cost; was the vessel built to the order of the Fishery Board; and, if not, will he state who recommended her purchase, and under what circumstances she was passed as suitable for the services of the Board.
    MR. SCOTT DICKSON: The "Norna" was built in the commencement of the year 1898 at a cost of £2,350; she was built to the order of the Fishery Board, as it had been decided to try a boat of this type for sea police duty.

    The Beaufort Castle Shooting Case.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether he is now in a position to state when the trial will take place of John Scheffer Phipps and Henry Carnegie Phipps, of Beaufort Castle, Inverness-shire, for shooting at and seriously wounding a man at work on the River Beauly; and will
    1338
    he state whether the Procurator-Fiscal, who has this case in hand, gives his whole time to the duties of his office, or does he engage in private practice.
    MR. SCOTT DICKSON: The 29th inst. has been fixed for the trial. As to the terms of the Procurator-Fiscals appointment, I refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave yesterday†on the subject.

    Importation of Horse into Ireland.
    MR. HAMMOND (Carlow): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that a serious horse disease (epizootic lymphangitis) has recently been imported into Ireland through horses brought from South Africa, and that the steps which the Department of Agriculture are taking to prevent its spreading may be rendered nugatory if fresh cases come into the country without restriction, he will say if any inspection of horses coming into Ireland through its eastern seaports from England and foreign countries has been ordered.
    TAE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALTER LONG,: The question of regulating the importation of horses into Ireland is at present under consideration.

    County Longford Land Cases and Appeals.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state whether, with a view to securing the immediate clearing out of a large batch of unheard cases and appeals in the county Longford, under the Land Law (Ireland) Act, he will direct that future sittings of the Sub-Commissions will be held at periods of not less than six months, and of the Appeal Commission not less than one year.
    MR. WALTER LONG: Four Sub-Commission sittings for Longford have been held within the past twelve months, and another will be held in September. An appeal sitting was held in May last. There are only nineteen appeals now
    † See page 1164.

    1339
    pending from this county, and the Commissioners can give no undertaking as to the date of the next sitting.

    Poulduff Pier.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state how many years it is since the Wexford County Council voted £1,000 towards the improvement of the pier at Poulduff; if he will state when the Department for Agriculture consented to contribute towards the work; if he will state whether the contractor has get signed his agreement with the Department for Agriculture for the execution of the work; if he will explain the delay of several years that has taken place in putting this work in hand; and if he will state who is responsible for this delay.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The council voted the amount in August, 1903, but did not approve of the plans until November, 1904. The plans were subsequently modified at the instance of the county surveyor, and it was not until February last that the Department were in a position to ask for tenders. A satisfactory tender was with difficulty obtained, and accepted on May 6th, and the legal formalities connected with the contract are now approaching completion.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the tender is likely to be signed?
    MR. WALTER LONG: I am afraid I cannot.

    Irish Grant for Technical Education.
    MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what is the amount of the equivalent grant withdrawn for technical education purposes; what is the number of schools affected by the withdrawal; and what are the relative amounts annually spent on technical education in England, Ireland, and Scotland.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The amount of the special grant to Ireland for
    1340
    which provision was made in the ordinary Estimates for 1904–5, when it ceased, was £3,500. The circumstances under which payment of this special grant was made and discontinued have been fully explained in the House. In substitution for that grant provision has been made in the Development Grant Estimate for an annual payment of £7,000. Twelve schools participated in the original grant of £3,500; and the amount expended in technical instruction in Ireland in 1903–4 (the last year for which the figures are available) was £93,267. I have no information as to the corresponding amounts expended in Great Britain.
    MR. CULLINAN: Is not the withdrawal of this money doing serious injury to the schools?
    MR. WALTER LONG: No; because there has been substituted for it one of double the amount.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: Has any arrangement been made to enable us to discuss the development grant?
    MR. WALTER LONG: That Question should be addressed to the Leader of the House.

    Trinity College Estates.
    MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the names of the two estates in which negotiations for sale are being carried on by Trinity College.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I gave this information in my printed reply to the Question of the hon. Member for North Kildare on Monday.†

    Irish Arterial Drainage
    MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to his recent statement that he had appointed a Committee of experts to inquire into the subject of arterial drainage in Ireland, whether he has
    † See page 902.

    1341
    taken care that the Committee shall consist of or shall include Irish engineers who know the country, or have been engaged in drainage and similar works in that country.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I hope to be in a position to announce the names of the members of the Commission and the terms of reference in the course of a few days. Perhaps the hon. and learned Member will repeat his Question on Wednesday next.
    MR. CLANCY: Bat surely the right hon. Gentleman can say if any Irish engineers will be appointed on it.
    MR. WALTER LONG: Of course the members of the Commission will be mainly Irish.
    MR. CLANCY: We want Irish engineers appointed to do Irish work.

    Inspection of Irish Intermediate Schools.
    MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the recently-issued Report of the Board of Intermediate Education for Ireland, and particularly to that portion of it dealing with the question of inspection of intermediate schools; whether he is aware that so far back as June, 1902, the Board submitted to the Government the details of a scheme of inspection which have remained ever since unconsidered, and that the Act of 1900, dealing with this matter, renders it obligatory on the Board, on the Irish Department of the Government, and on the Treasury, to frame and settle a scheme of inspection as a necessary portion of the intermediate system as altered by the Act referred to; and whether, seeing that the Board has discharged its own part of this obligation, he will explain why the Irish Department of the Government and the Treasury, have refused to discharge their portion, and for how long that Department and the Treasury intend to delay the efforts of the Board to carry out its trust.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The Government did not refuse to provide for a system of inspection. What it did refuse to establish was a system of
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    inspection conducted by a permanent inspectorate until the question of the parts which examination and inspection respectively played in the distribution of State aid to the schools had been determined. A reference to the Report of Messrs. Dale and Stephens on Intermediate Education will, I think, satisfy the hon. and learned Member of the propriety of the attitude taken by the Government in this matter.
    MR. CLANCY: Is it a fact that of the three parties who have to settle this question, the Government is the only one which hesitates and will not do anything.
    MR. WALTER LONG: No, Sir.
    MR. CLANCY: But the Report of the Board says it is. Is not the statement correct?
    MR. WALTER LONG: We are waiting for a complete scheme to be devised. Until that is done it is obviously impossible for the Government to move further.

    The Alleged Outrage at Boyle.
    MR. JAMES O'KELLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the number of police investigating the alleged outrage near Boyle, county of Roscommon, on the 11th July, in the course of which it is alleged that serious fighting with firearms took place and lasted for three hours, the alleged result being that one man was wounded and a mansion wrecked; whether he has yet received any report in reference to this alleged outrage from the police; and, if so, whether he will communicate this report to the House.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I refer to the reply which I gave yesterday† to the Question addressed to me by the hon. Member for South Antrim. The reply to the last inquiry is in the negative.
    MR. HAYDEN (Roscommon, S.): Does the right hon. Gentleman refuse to give the particulars of the report he has received from the police?
    † See page 1173.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The hon. Member knows perfectly well I have repeatedly stated that my Answers are based on the police reports.
    MR. HAYDEN: Does the report contain nothing beyond what the right hon. Gentleman said yesterday. The right hon. Gentleman has not yet answered the Question how many police have been engaged in investigating this matter from the beginning up to the present.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I have said that out of forty policemen in the whole district about five were engaged in this particular work. I also said that they had arrived at the conclusion that there was no foundation for the statement that an outrage had taken place. I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to ask me for more information or for a more explicit declaration.
    MR, HAYDEN: Well, I think I am. Were the windows that were broken broken from the inside or outside of the house? Was not a domestic quarrel the foundation for this slander on a whole district? Does the police report deal with these matters?
    MR. WALTER LONG: No, Sir, it does not, and I said yesterday there was no evidence of any attack having been made on this particular house. I could not possibly say whether the windows were broken from inside or outside. At the very outset I told the House the police believed there was no second party in the matter. I have no precise information as to whether this disturbance was due to a domestic quarrel.
    MR. HAYDEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer this Question—Why has it taken the police three weeks to find out that the statement in the newspapers was false?
    MR. SPEAKER: That Question hardly arises out of the one on the Paper.
    MR. HAYDEN: It is one of the series of Questions we have been pressing.
    MR SPEAKER: The hon. Member must give notice of it.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Did the police report inform the right hon. Gentleman what newspaper office at Boyle concocted this libel and sold it to the Press Association? I am not alleging anything against the Press Association. I know they are only anxious to put the truth before the public.
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to make a speech.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Well, does the report give that information?
    MR. WALTER LONG: No, Sir. I do not think it does.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: If another opportunity arises I may be able to give the right hon. Gentleman the information.
    MR. CULLINAN: How is it that The Times and other papers which published the original libel have not a word to say now about the contradiction?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That is not a proper Question to ask.

    Irish Language in Irish Schools—Proposed Withdrawal of Grant.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will lay upon the Table of the House any correspondence which has passed between the Treasury and the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland on the proposed withdrawal of the grant for the Irish language as an extra subject; and whether he will also lay upon the Table the Minutes of any meetings of the Board at which the subject was considered.
    MR. WALTER LONG: The correspondence with the Treasury is of a Departmental and confidential character, and it would be contrary to the established practice to publish it. The Minutes of the Board contain detailed references to the Treasury correspondence, and for that reason I must decline to lay these Minutes on the Table.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Did the National Board, in coming

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    to a decision, take steps to ensure that Irish would be taught as an ordinary subject in Irish schools?
    MR. SPEAKEE: Obviously that does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLsuggested it arose out of the Question asking for the production of the Minutes.
    MR. SPEAKER: I take a different view. That part of the Question has already been answered.

    Afflicted Children (Ireland) Bill.
    MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received any information leading him to the conclusion that a desire is felt by the Irish public for further time to consider the details of the Afflicted Children (Ireland) Bill, and, if so, whether he intends to proceed further with the Bill this session.
    MR. WALTER LONG: I have received information to this effect. I am afraid it will not be practicable to proceed further with the Bill, though I should much regret it.

    Edgeworthstown Drainage.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any application has been recently received for the formation of a drainage board in the vicinity of Edgeworthstown, county Longford; and, if so, will the application be granted.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,: No application for the formation of a drainage board has been received by the Board of Works.

    Redistribution.
    MR. THORNTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will give a Return containing the names of any boroughs which, under the Redistribution scheme issued lately by the Local Government Board, were to be partitioned and not disfranchised, their voters being divided between neigh bouring divisions.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): May I be allowed to answer this Question. Outside London no Parliamentary borough which is not disfranchised will be partitioned between neighbouring divisions. As regards London a Return is being prepared which, among other things, will give the information desired.
    MR. THORNTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Committee selected to privately advise the Government as to the redistribution of London boroughs will apply to the local working-class clubs and other organisations for information as well as to political and municipal authorities.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: I can assure my hon. friend that all persons or instituti ns who may be thought to have valuable information to offer to the Committee or Commission upon this subject will have an opportunity of conveying their views.
    MR. THORNTONasked whether candidates for Parliament would be informed as to the dates of the sittings.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not know anybody more interested than the candidates, and they will have an opportunity of communicating any information which they may have at their disposal.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: Will there be a separate Commission for Ireland?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, there will be a separate Commission.

    North Sea Fisheries Investigation.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state when a Report showing the progress made in the international scheme of North Sea Fisheries Investigation will be hid upon the Table of the House; will he state what sum has been voted by each European Power for this work; and whether France has yet been invited to take part in the investigations.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURwas understood to reply that the information asked for would be found in the Report of the Scottish Fishery Board, which would shortly be circulated. Papers in continuation of those already presented were in course of preparation. The French Government were invited to take part in the work, but declined. As to the sums voted by foreign Powers, he would obtain the information for the hon. Member.

    Members of Parliament and Government Contracts.
    MR. THEODORE TAYLOR: On behalf of the lion. Member for the Otley Division of Yorkshire, I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if, in consequence of the increase in the number of limited companies since the passing of the Act, 22 Geo. 3, c. 45, s. 1, under which Members of the House of Commons are, as private traders, unable to undertake Government contracts, he will take steps to strike out of the list of Government contractors such companies the undertakings of which prove on investigation to be, substantially, the property of a Member of the House of Commons and his family.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Government do not propose any legislation on this subject.

    Royal Commission on Poor Law Administration.
    MR. WHITMORE (Chelsea): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the Unemployed Workmen Bill would introduce new methods for providing employment for able-bodied persons beyond the limits and conditions of the Poor Law, His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of the appointment at an early date of a Royal Commission to inquire into the working of the Poor Law, and the results of the action of the borough councils in finding work for the unemployed in pursuance of orders and circulars from the Local Government Board, in order to ascertain how far the administration of the boards of guardiars and borough councils is efficient, and to what extent, if any, the existing powers of the Poor Law authorities are inadequate
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    and unfitted to modern industrial needs and conditions.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My hon. friend has been courteous enough to postpone this Question once or twice for my convenience and I thank him for so doing. I have now to say, in behalf of His Majesty's Government, that, having given full consideration to the question, we are of opinion that the time has now come when full inquiry into the subjects referred to by my hon. friend ought to be undertaken. There has been no such inquiry, so far as I know, since the great inquiry in the thirties, which resulted in the passing into law of the new Poor Law Act; and we think the time has now come when a survey of the subject under new conditions, and in connection with modern requirements, ought to be undertaken. In ordinary circumstances, and on a subject like this, Governments have a reluctance to lay. themselves open to the charge that they are appointing an inquiry in order to postpone action; but in the present case, as the House knows, we are anxious that the Unemployed Bill, as modified by the Amendments of my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board, should be tried as an experiment for three years, and before these three years have elapsed I think we may reasonably hope that even so vast a subject may be thoroughly surveyed by the Commission which we desire to appoint.
    MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.): Is it the intention to appoint this Commission in the recess, and, if so, will it be possible to lay the terms of reference before the House before it separates.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should doubt whether it would be possible, but I do not say it will not be possible. I cannot give any promise; but the general scope of the inquiry, I hope, has been made quite clear by my Answer. We are anxious to survey everything which appertains to dealing with the problem of the poor, whether poor by their own fault or by temporary lack of employment. We are also anxious to investigate what means can be taken to deal with the

    1349
    problems which thus arise, whether by employment by municipalities or in any other way. The subject is not a small one, and its importance will not be denied by anybody who has in his mind the all-important subject which the question of poor relief has raised in the past and is likely to raise in the future.
    DR. THOMPSON: Will the inquiry extend to Ireland?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should like to consider that question; by which I do not mean that Ireland is not as much interested in the conclusions of such a Commission, or in the conclusion we may arrive at after the Commission has been appointed, as any part of Great Britain, but whether it would not be necessary to appoint a separate Commission for Ireland is a question I should like to consider. So far as I remember, the Commission of 1834 did not deal with Ireland.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: How will Scotland stand?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think the same observation probably applies to Scotland. That subject also I will consider.
    MR. LOUGH: Will it be a Royal Commission, and will it be appointed at once?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It will be a Royal Commission. We propose to make no unnecessary delay. I can assure the hon. Gentleman, speaking as one on whose shoulders has rested the burden of appointing many Commissions, that there are few operations more difficult; and it is quite impossible, especially at this time of year, to have any security that we shall be able to bring the operation of appointing it rapidly to a conclusion.
    MR. CROOKS: Can the right hon. Gentleman give a, general outline of the character of this Commission? ["Oh, oh!"] I am not asking for names. It is very important. I agree as to the absolute necessity of it.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am sure the Question is only asked for the purpose of getting information, but I think the hon. Gentleman will understand that it is impossible for us at the present moment to give an indication of the character of the Commission. If I remember rightly, the Commission of 1834 consisted of nine persons, and none of them, so far as I know, were persons greatly concerned in Party politics or connected with any class interest, and they proceeded to consider the question from what I might call the abstract and disinterested point of view. I myself have a great preference for Commissions of that sort, but I know it is very difficult to get the House to assent to their appointment.

    MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLasked leave to move the adjournment of the House in order to raise the question of the teaching of the Irish language in Irish national schools and the discontinuance, of the grant.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, Order! The hon. Member must have forgotten that this is one of the days on which such a Motion cannot by Standing Order be made.

SUPPLY [19TH ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)

CLASS II.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £108,629; be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and Subordinate Offices."
SIR CHARLES DILKEmoved to reduce the Vote by £100, and said that the right hon. Member for West Birmingham and members of the Government had alleged that our Factory and Workshops Acts, our Mines Acts, and our Truck Acts were altogether in advance of those of rival countries, and that the stringency of our laws formed a handicap against our trade. The Amendment he was proposing would be mainly supported on the ground of the conduct of the Government since the debate of last year in regard to the International Labour Conference lately held at Berne. Would it be believed that our Government had declined all opportunities of co-operating with those Powers which were trying to improve the standard throughout the world? Foreign countries had brought up their legislation very rapidly to our level. In the dangerous trades, and as regards the coal mines, France and Germany had gone past this country, and were making the most strenuous endeavours to bring up the backward countries to our and their level. They had brought immense pressure to bear upon countries like Italy and Belgium, in the case of Italy with marked success. There had never been, except perhaps in the case of Japan, so rapid a development of manufactures as in Italy, which was rapidly coming to the front, though she was behindhand both in legislation and in the enforcement of it until three years ago. But through French pressure and by means of an actual treaty between the two countries she had been brought well into line. M. Fontaine, the Director of Labour in France—whose work in connection with the international regulation of labour was worldwide work—had been intimately connected with the origin of the first international conference, which had followed the first international treaties with regard to labour legislation, and the British Government were represented at the conference. But the nucleus of this international action was the work of persons who had, no doubt, been stimulated by the Governments of France and Germany. The French Government were increasing their annual contribution towards that office or nucleus from £200 to £400 a year, and other
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Governments were now contributing towards the committee that called the conferences together. Our Government alone stood behind, while it was represented at the recent conference by delegates of lesser rank and authority than those of the other Governments.
Last year it was the opinion of those-who took part in the debate on that Vote, that as it was known France was to be represented by statesmen of the first rank and highest authority the representation of our country should be on a similar scale, for we had a greater interest in this question than any other country. We were the greatest manufacturing Power, and we ought to take the lead in bringing up other countries to our level We had led in the past in factory and workshop legislation, and if it was our pecuniary interest it was also our duty in the interests of humanity, which, after all, were at stake, to lead in this movement. Senator Richard Waddington, who stood out supreme for his knowledge of these questions, who as chairman of the French Permanent Labour Commission enjoyed the absolute confidence of both masters and men, represented France, and he was accompanied by M. Millerand, formerly Minister of Commerce and Industry. The Home Office was represented by two delegates against whom personally he had nothing to say. He wished to point out that they were of inferior rank to the delegates sent by other Powers, and the instructions given to them were to be seen in the protocols which, although published in the French tongue, had not been circulated to Members of this House.
In the discussion on phosphorous necrosis that took place the first British delegate stated that so successful had this country been in its legislation that there had not been a single case in 1905, and he thereupon proceeded to lecture his international colleagues on dentistry, and to argue that international action was unnecessary. Then he added the startling assertion that—
"My Government has not thought fit to. authorise us to sign a treaty."
That sentence contained an absolute veto on the result of the deliberations before the British delegates even knew what was to be proposed at the

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conference. He did not know how far that represented the general policy of the Government, but he hoped that the Home Secretary would be able to explain the Government view to-day. The position of the British delegates at the conference reminded him of the familiar case of Tweedledum in Through the Looking Glass, who said it could rain outside but it did not rain under his umbrella. In the same way the British delegates said there could be no phosphorous necrosis here, and therefore we were disinterested and did not care about what happened in other countries. But the British delegate added a foot-note on the proof of the protocol, stating that there had been one recent case of phosphorous necrosis, and since then two cases had been admitted, though he contended that there had been three recent cases all in the same factory—a factory which was now admitted to be well conducted. On being questioned the Home Secretary stated that in the factory stringent special rules were in force, and the right hon. Gentleman added that the rules had been violated in certain cases. The fact was that the precautions laid down under the new regulations never could be or would be strictly observed. It was admitted by everyone that the disease arose immediately from decayed teeth and their removal. Let them take the case of a poor woman, who had a decayed tooth extracted and concealed the fact in order not to be put off her miserable work. Such cases would always happen. All European countries, except Great Britain, had said, or were going to say, that yellow and white phosphorus were to be proscribed; and the question before our Government was whether they would continue to refuse conditional adherence to a unanimous agreement on this point. The Director of Industry, Labour, and Commerce of Hungary had said in reply to our delegates that—
"The most minute and the most perfect appliances are powerless to suppress necrosis. Other States which make matches by the same improved machinery as the best in Great Britain had been forced to prohibit yellow phosphorus."
To this the German delegates assented. The Hungarian delegate warmly appealed to Great Britain, without whose adhesion the convention would be useless.
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He pointed out that Great Britain could yield more easily than Belgium or Hungary, each of which had more match-makers than Great Britain, or than Italy, which had nearly three times the number. The German Director of the Interior said—
"It is a fundamental error to believe that protective measures can stamp out necrosis. The British cases prove this. In Germany also there was strong opposition to the prohibition but nevertheless it was carried out."
The Belgian Inspector of Labour said that—
"His country was making a heavy sacrifice, but thought it necessary for the good of the world, though much more difficult than it would be for Great Britain."
Nine countries voted for the resolution and two against—Great Britain and Sweden. Sweden had since withdrawn her opposition and had agreed to come in if Japan came in, and Japan was coming in. Why should not the Government sign with every other European Power the conditional agreement to act if Japan came in? Why not do even as Sweden had done?
On the second question submitted, which was that of the night labour of women, our regulations were ahead of those of other countries with the exception, perhaps, of our exemption of fruit and fish trades; yet the British delegates stood severely apart and refused to sign. But, as M. Millerand pointed out—
"It is impossible to argue from the goodness of national legislation that one should remain outside international understandings."
Was not that the. position which the House would desire to see the Government take up? When he questioned the Home Secretary on the subject the right, hon. Gentleman said—
"In accordance with the instructions given them, the delegates of this country abstained from voting on either of the resolutions when finally put to the vote."
Was the Home Secretary now in a position to make the statement the then promised as to the Government's attitude towards these proposals? This was the first international conference of this kind, and only those subjects were brought forward on

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which there was a probability of general agreement. No one could doubt, how ever, that if this international movement proved fruitful in this case it would be extended. A diplomatic conference, for drawing up the general treaty, was to follow. By whom was the British Government to be represented at that conference? By men of rank and standing, capable of enunciating a policy, or by mere Home Office clerks, bound up by definite instructions to agree to nothing? Some people wanted to see labour itself represented in these conferences, but other Governments had not followed that course. He did not know, indeed, if we could select a man so universally acceptable to all classes as was Senator Waddington in the case of France. At any rate, let them at any future conference be represented by men who had a policy to propound, and who would not be fettered by such instructions as had been given on this occasion.
He had dealt with this matter at some length because it was one of first-class importance, and he held that it was the duty of the Committee to force on the Government some definite policy. On the question of lead poisoning in the china and earthenware trades, the Government had been forced by pressure in the House of Commons to adopt stringent regulations, but those regulations had not been sufficient to prevent lead poisoning, though they had diminished the number of cases. A new departure was made under the bold and entirely novel scheme struck out by Lord James of Hereford; but the Home Office failed to obtain the prohibition of lead in certain processes or its reduction to a very low figure. After a considerable decline in the number of cases as a result of the regulations there had been a rise again, and the number—106—was now the same as in 1901, a fact which, considering there had not been much change in the number of people employed during that period, was a source of alarm to some of them. He was not blaming the Home Office for their proposals were not accepted. This increase had taken place in face of a stringent enforcement of the new regulation such as suspending workers susceptible to poisoning.
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In cases of suspension for susceptibility there was no compensation under Lord James's scheme, and generally none where the suspension was for sickness in which lead was a contributory cause only. These suspensions must involve great hardship in a district like the Potteries, in which there was only one trade. Suspension meant starvation or dependence on charity. If they looked at the Report they would find, on page 311, that Dr. Arlidge said that a woman once suspended should not be allowed to return to lead work, certainly for a year or two. Compensation depended on a certificate of plumbism, which was not easy to obtain, because very often lead was only a contributory cause to the condition of the worker. Where the worker was suspended and then certified for light work, the compensation was reduced or stopped. The report cited the case of a girl of eighteen, whose work was stopped on the 20th October. She was granted 4s. 2d. weekly, but was certified on February 16th as "fit for light work," and the compensation stopped. She could not get light work and was dependent on charity at the present time. In another case the girl was twenty-two. She was stopped working on December 29th, and was awarded 7s. weekly. She was certified as fit for light work on February 6th. She was offered majolica painting—not a harmless form of work, but she was prevented from taking it by the doctor, and was still dependent on charity. The third case was that of a married woman of twenty-three, a majolica paintress, who was stopped in March, awarded 6s. 7d. weekly compensation, and declared fit for light work in May. She could not get any for seven weeks, then she had some for one week only, and lost it again through inability and power to carry it on. The compensation was stopped because there could be no certificate of plumbism, and she was consequently dependent on the Lead Fund. The Committee could judge from cases of that kind what a large number there must be on the border line.
He and his friends had pressed very much in the last three years in the discussion on this Vote for the appointment of additional women inspectors, as the main portion of the workers there were women. Last

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year some concession was made to the demand. It appeared from the Report now before them that the woman inspector, who did such excellent work, was taken off the duties in which she was engaged and sent to Ireland, where, indeed, there was need for inspection, and where he for one had always thought they should face the facts and have inspectors belonging both to the Roman Catholic and the Protestant religions so that no religious question would arise. He was sorry to say that it had arisen in some cases. They were promised one-third of the time of a woman inspector and they should not always get the same woman inspector. It was not satisfactory that this woman inspector should have been sent to Ireland, and they must press for more satisfaction of their views in that matter. He. remained convinced that the solution of this question was the gradual abolition of lead in this dangerous industry. He saw from page 261 of the Report that Miss Anderson, the principal lady inspector, declared that "improvement in health of women and girls not yet noticeable." Miss Martindale, the inspector employed in the Potteries, reported that it was disappointing that manufacturers had not pursued more vigorously their quest of a glaze which had less dangerous results.
The subject on which hon. Members were most agreed was the necessity for a continued increase in the staff of women inspectors. The work had been greatly increased, as was shown by the report of Miss Deane in regard to her laundry area in London. Miss Deane referred to the curious fact that there were in it 286 factory laundries in 1904 as against 185 four years earlier. The women inspectors. had not all their time for the work which they did so well. They were set to make special inquiries for the Home Office on matters of first-class importance. The Report showed that this year they had had to make special reports on the laws as to employment of women after childbirth; the number of persons rejected for physical unfitness and their after-employment; and fustian cutting. He mentioned these as examples of the subjects in regard to which these ladies rendered admirable service
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apart from their ordinary work. In her report Miss Anderson had a pathetic paragraph in which she said that two temporary appointments were made permanent. There had been no increase of inspectors' time, rather less being available. There were 1,500,000 women in the factories and workshops of this country, and the services of the women inspectors had by universal admission been admirable. The women workers expected that the Government would provide for their interests being more carefully protected under the legislation which had been passed regulating their employment. He begged to move.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £108 529, be granted for the said service."—(Sir Charles Dilke.)
MR. SLOAN (Belfast, S.)said he wished to call attention to a matter of urgent importance. Since the session began he had succeeded in getting from the Home Office a Return in regard to laundries in conventual institutions, and from that it appeared that there was no possibility of inspection taking place, or of the Home Office knowing exactly what was being carried on in them. There was a Bill known as the Factories and Workshops Act, brought in in 1901, which contained a clause including all charitable and religious institutions doing laundry work. The circumstances of that day prevented the then Home Secretary from carrying that Bill with that clause included. Hon Gentlemen from Ireland took great exception to the inclusion of that clause, and the Government took it out. He regretted to say that the Bill was passed without that clause, and it was for that reason he ventured to engage the attention of the Committee for a short time to bring before its notice what he believed to be an essential thing, namely, the inspection of these institutions which competed with outside labour. It was not a question of religion at all. It was a question as to the advisability of having the employees in these institutions safeguarded by Act of Parliament similar to employees in all other institutions.

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The Questions he had put to the Home Secretary were very simple. Was there any such inspection at all? He was well aware there was voluntary inspection, and some of the institutions did not object to the inspectors going in and seeing what was going on. In Ireland the greatest courtesy and kindness was shown to the inspectors at some institutions. But that could not be very satisfactory, because there were a number of these institutions in which inspection of a voluntary character was not taking place at all. Consequently there were places in which abuses were likely to occur. He would like to know where there was inspection attempted if it was resented, and where it was most in favour, in this country or in Ireland. It ought not to be a difficult thing for the Committee to see the advisability of including the clause that was excluded from the Bill of 1901, seeing the large number of institutions which were at the present time under voluntary inspection. Supposing there was an accident in these places, there was no possibility of getting to understand whether the individual should be compensated or what had been the cause of the accident. There was no possibility of getting at the number of hours worked by these persons, and there should be no objection to the passage of a small measure for the purpose of bringing these religious and charitable institutions under the law.
MR. T. M. HEALY: May I rise to a point of order? The hon. Member for Belfast is recommending legislation. May I respectfully say that is not in order when we are discussing a Vote in Committee of Supply on services actually rendered and matters arising there on. I would respectfully submit that as the House has rejected this provision it is not in order to make a Second Reading speech on the subject. The House having rejected that clause, discussion ought to be confined to the topics that are strictly relevant.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. and learned Gentleman is quite right. There is no doubt that is so. I did not notice that the hon. Member for Belfast was recommending legislation. Of course it
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is not in order to discuss in Committee of Supply matters which would require legislation.
MR. SLOANsaid they had a Return before the House which gave the names of the places where work was being performed. The Home Office was in possession of the fact that inspectors might make voluntary inspections; that that inspection was resented in. some laundries, while in others it was carried out. With all respect to the House he wanted, to know whether he would be in order if he were to put some Questions to the Home Secretary in regard to the necessity of compulsory inspection, because of the voluntary inspection not being satisfactory.
THE CHAIRMAN: If compulsory inspection would require legislation it would be out of order.
MR. SLOAN: Do you say it would require legislation?
THE CHAIRMAN: I think it would
MR. SLOAN: But that is just my point.
THE CHAIRMAN.I think clearly it would require legislation, or else the late Home Secretary would not have thought it necessary to put a clause in the Bill of 1901 to make inspection compulsory.
MR. SLOANsaid the right hon. Member for Croydon, the then Home Secretary, introduced a Bill which contained a clause bringing these institutions under ordinary inspection. That clause was resented by certain Members, and it was taken out of the Bill and the Bill was passed without it.
MR. T. M. HEALY: Our time is very limited. We have only till 10 o'clock to-night to discuss this Vote, and therefore every moment is precious. I think the hon. Member should immediately obey the order of the Chairman and not discuss irrelevant matters.
THE CHAIRMAN: I hope the hon. Member for Belfast will leave that point. He cannot discuss it.
MR. SLOANsaid he was not desirous to transgress the ruling of the Chair or keep the Committee from its work. He thought he would be in order if he asked the Home Secretary a few Questions with regard to these institutions. In the first place, was there any inspection at all? If so, to what extent? Was it satisfactory? How was it carried out? And was it resented? He submitted that there was no reason for refusing to bring any of these institutions under the law which at present applied to other laundries.
THE CHAIRMANagain called the hon. Member to order on the ground that he was on the point of transgressing his ruling, and the hon. Member thereupon resumed his seat.
MR, T. RICHARDSsaid in supporting the Motion for the reduction of the salary of the Home Secretary, he wished to call attention to "the necessity for the Government to appoint some person or persons to conduct a special inquiry into the cause of the Wattstown colliery disaster, where 120 lives had been lost during the last few weeks. The reason why he asked for the special inquiry was because of the enormous sacrifice of life continually involved by explosions in the collieries. The Home Secretary was good enough the other day to give him the numbers of lives lost in collieries in South Wales and Great Britain generally during the last fifty years. There were 9,294 deaths from explosions alone. Since then he had found out that in South Wales alone they had had 109 explosions in the last sixty-one years with a loss of. 4,104 lives. The loss of life was very great, but through fortunate circumstances not so great as it might have been. For instance, they had had three explosions in South Wales this year, with a loss of 160 lives. Were it not for the fortunate moment at which two of those explosions occurred the loss might have been 1,000 and not 160. That, in itself, was sufficient justification for calling attention to the matter.
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His object in drawing attention to the matter was not to fix any liability either criminal or otherwise on those who had the management of this unfortunate colliery, because it must be known to everybody that the chief manager thought everything had been done for the safety of the workmen and risked his own life at the time. Neither did he rise for any Party purpose, because the administration of a Government had as much influence in the country as its legislation. While this Government would go to the country after an almost barren session, here was an opportunity for the Home Office to relieve that barrenness by humane administration. His sole desire in this matter was that every advantage possible should be taken of scientific research and investigation to grapple with the problems of these great disasters. In that spirit he asked if everything had been done that might be done to prevent these explosions. People had thought for many years that all had not been done that might be done to prevent these disasters. Whenever a large body of miners congregated together one of the most important resolutions submitted to them was upon the prime need of legislation to prevent these accidents recurring. They had not merely called the attention of the House of Commons to the matter. They had sent deputations to almost every Home Secretary for a great many years.
He was not going to quote his own opinion. He had been fortunate enough, but he hoped the Home Office and the colliery owners had seen an article written in the London Standard last week by a gentleman who was one of the greatest authorities in Great Britain upon the causes of these disasters. That gentleman had been a colliery manager, a consulting mining engineer, and was now a professor of mining. Therefore he was well up in the theory and practice of mining. He meant Professor Galloway, who, in a very lengthy and able article on colliery explosions in the Standard last week, in dealing with the regulations which were at present in existence, said that—
"These regulations, if well and faithfully earnied out by those responsible for the

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safety of the mines, would render the recurrence of great explosions practically impossible."
He ventured to say that that was a very grave and serious indictment to be made by one of the ablest engineers and scientists who had given his life study to this question. He asked the Committee to consider against whom that indictment was brought. In one instance it was brought against the Home Office, because he maintained that the Home Office was the joint partner with the colliery owners in what Mr. Galloway described as the proper carrying out of these regulations. They had had three great explosions this year in South Wales, the violence of which had been almost as great as that of any explosion that had occurred in this country. Still, they had this eminent scientist saying that this explosion ought not to have occurred if there had been a proper administration of the regulations relating to the management of the mines.
He ventured to say that both the Home Office and the mineowners were quite incompetent to secure an intelligent, careful, and effective administration of the rules for the management of collieries referred to by Mr. Galloway. He called the attention of the Committee to this fact. Take the particular district where this explosion had occurred. In that district there was only one chief inspector and two assistant inspectors. They had to supervise the mines and quarries employing 85,275 workmen, producing 24,109,205 tons annually. In that district alone last year there were 137 fatal accidents and 227 non-fatal. This chief inspector was supposed to inspect these mines and quarries periodically and report upon them to the Home Office. But, in addition to the multiplicity of other duties he had to discharge, he had to attend to the inquests on these 137 fatal accidents. That necessarily meant a great deal of time for him and his assistants. Then he had to write reports, and there was a large amount of correspondence between the office and the colliery owners. In that inspector's report last year he said that the whole of the mines had been inspected except four, but two of those were small mines.
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He supposed it might be taken for granted that the other two were large proprietary mines. And yet during the whole twelve months neither the chief inspector nor his two assistants had been able to pay a visit to these large collieries. It must not be understood that he was in any shape or form blaming the chief inspector, but he wanted to call attention to the impossibility in a large area to get very efficient inspectorship by the present staff.
Then they came to the next parties who had power in the enforcement of the rules. He had said in that House before, and he repeated it, that if he was spared to be a Member of that House for any length of time, and if these reforms were not carried out, he prophesied that the firemen in these collieries, who were the most important men connected with the mines, and who spent a large portion of their time at the top of the pit, would rebel. The firemen were in the colliery day by day and night by night; and they had to act in cases of emergency and at times of crises, at a moment's notice in many instances, and yet these men, entrusted with those responsible duties, had no examination to pass, and they had to satisfy nobody but the colliery manager, who might be satisfied with them for various reasons other than those connected with the duties he had named. He did not want to go into details, but he could give some instances of extraordinary appointments made. One would have thought that, seeing they had to perform duties of such importance, seeing that they had to examine every nook and corner of the colliery for the enemy that destroyed so many lives, no manager would put upon the shoulders of firemen any other duties. He did not know how it was in other parts, but in Wales the firemen appeared to be the general servants of the colliery and had to spend a large portion of their time in performing other multitudinous duties. It might ha be been necessary in previous years to appoint men with practical knowledge and with no scientific training, but now, with the great advantages of our technical instruction system, there was no excuse for appointing men who were not

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thoroughly equipped from every standpoint; especially in view of the continued and regular explosions which occurred.
He had heard it said in former debates that this country ought to lead in matters relating to the Army and Navy, and the right hon. Baronet had that afternoon said that we ought also to lead in other matters, but he ventured to say that there could be nothing more important than the proper training of the firemen in collieries. There were, he believed, seventy students from the South Wales collieries at present on the Continent, and they had been taken by their teachers to the various colliery undertakings and institutions. They were there for dealing with mining for the purpose of improving their education, and the following was what was said about them—
"There was a keen interest taken in the visit to a colliery, where the Government has apparatus for testing the effects of air currents containing varying percentages of fire damp on safety lamps and explosives. Several experiments were conducted by the expert in charge, and naturally there was a unanimous desire amongst the students present, all of whom worked in the mines, that application should be made to the British Government to establish similar apparatus in the most dangerous of our coalfields. Who can tell how many lives would have been saved in the South Wales collieries during the last few years if such a testing apparatus were placed at Cardiff. Colliery firemen must be trained to report the presence of small quantities of firedamp. How are they trained?"
That was only in little Belgium, and he asked the Home Secretary and the Committee whether it was too much to expect that in the most dangerous coalfield in the world, producing the best quality coal in the world, they ought not only to have those responsible properly trained, but every apparatus for the safety of the workmen.
He wanted to call the attention of the Committee to what seemed to him the absolute indifference that had been displayed by all parties to this great quesion in recent years. In 1881 there was a Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the cause of explosions, their prevention, and generally into the whole matter. It sat for five years—he thought
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the hon. Member for Morpeth was one of the members—and it took all the possible evidence, and great credit was due to the gentlemen forming it for the exhaustive inquiry made and the excellent Report presented. He was not going to say nothing had resulted from that Commission, because the Coal Mines Regulations Act of 1887 was largely based on its findings, and that Act, he thought, had done much to reduce the number of accidents from, all causes in mines, but very much less had been done than the importance of the subject demanded. He would give one instance. It was proved to the satisfaction of that Commission by two very able experts, one being Mr. Galloway whom he had just quoted, that the presence of 2 per cent, of coal gas in the atmosphere of a mine under certain conditions would cause an explosive mixture that would result in a violent explosion. Having found out that fact, they made investigations to find an indicator or a lamp that would detect that percentage of gas, and it would be seen in their Report that they found an indicator, which they recommended, that would detect 0.25 per cent, of gas. It surprised him—and it was, he thought, some cause for reflection by the Home Office and the Committee—that although that was twenty years ago, and although there could be no doubt about the Commission's authority and ability to speak about the matter, they were still putting in the hands of firemen, who had to look for gas, instruments that would not detect 2 per cent. of gas. He thought that was a serious matter, and that the Home Secretary ought now in the last days of h s office to do something. The miners of the country would bi grateful. The Government had entirely ignored them from the beginning of their life tilt now so far as legislation was concerned; but here was an opportunity for the Home Secretary not only to distinguish himself, but to render the miners of the country great service by again calling attention to the fact that the recommendations of the Commission had not yet been adopted. The Royal Commission said—
"These considerations have impressed upon us the need for the establishment of some permanent arrangement by which the continuous pursuit of this highly important class of work

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may be secured in order to test the merits of suggestions and inventions."
There had been twenty years since then, but nothing had been done. The Commissioners continued—
"We consider that if the arrangements we have referred to were used systematically in connection with the usual official inquiry, complete investigation would be greatly promoted in dealing with the difficulties which frequently. arise in elucidating the causes of disaster."
There was a recommendation that they should have in existence a permanent authority that should from time to time take advantage of everything that presented itself, whether it was an improved lamp, or a discovery with respect to coal dust, gas, or ventilation, a permanent authority whose business it should be to test from time to time the efficiency of those inventions or suggestions; but although that happened twenty years ago or more, they still had nothing of that kind. They were still satisfied after explosions with the coroner's inquiry. If some 100 men were killed, they got a coroner and a few incompetent jurymen to inquire into the cause of death. Personally he would prefer to have impartial scientific men to see if something further could not be done for the prevention of disasters. The workmen of the country were not satisfied with having simply the coroner's inquiry. There was great outcry and sympathy in the country at that time, and large sums were at that moment being given for those suffering from one of those great disasters, but that was not enough. It would pass away in a few days, and the men in the collieries would be forgotten by the Government and the country until another disaster took place. They could not be satisfied with that method of doing business in the future.
Granting, however, that everything that it was possible for an intelligent country to do in order to protect the lives of miners was done, and that there were certain causes of disaster which could not be obviated, he would then ask if they were doing all that they could to minimise the effect of disasters when they did occur. He would try and make the Committee understand the absolute neglect and indifference that had been shown in regard to disasters when they
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did occur. The Home Secretary referred him the other day to a Report by Dr. Haldane, but he was inclined to ask him if he had read it. If he had, he really could not understand his calling his attention to it; for, if any one thing more than another called attention to the indifferences of the Home Office it was Dr. Haldane's Report. Dr. Haldane, nine years ago, called special attention to the want of some apparatus and organisation for dealing with the disasters when they did occur, but absolutely nothing had been done. Let the Committee consider what happened: 500 or 600 men were down a mine 100 or 200 yards deep. The explosion in a mine resembled a flash of lightning which filled every chamber and expended itself immediately, and in all these explosions practically all the men escaped the first flash and were living after it had expended itself. But after the flash had gone there came impenetrable darkness unillumined by a single ray of light, and through that darkness the men attempted to make their way to a place of escape, seeing nothing and hearing only the groans of their unfortunate comrades. Let him give one illustration in the case of the Aberlysswg. William Clewer Tirphil, one of the injured men in that explosion, said—
"I was working on the main level and had just loaded a truck of coil when I heard a noise as of a rush of wind. Immediately after I was struck by a lot of stones and a flame like a flash of lightning passed by me. I heard no report. The train which I had filled was knocked over and I was blown into the side of the road to the height of about four feet. There were seven or eight of us working within about twenty yards of each other. We tried to get out by the main level, but the after damp was too strong and we had to go to the face. We did the about five times, but the air continuing to improve we managed to get out by the main level, but with the greatest difficulty. Two men were overcome and had to fall out. I had gone so weak that if I had had to proceed another step I should not have been able to manage it."
That was enough to show what the position of the men in a pit was after they had escaped the explosion, and somebody ought to be responsible to give them a helping hand. In the meantime what happened at the top of the pit? The men at the top either heard the report or saw the smoke and flame issuing from the pit or some other indication of something having happened below,

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and every one lost his head and consternation reigned. One ran one way and one another seeking assistance, and the lampman, who ought always to have his lamps ready for the explorers, set to work to trim his lamps. All this time the men below were struggling for their lives. No preparations were ever made, although these explosions took place year after year. The present condition of things in this regard was a perfect scandal. In the case of a wreck on our coasts no time was lost in attempting to save life, every preparation having been made, and an immense organisation was kept in readiness to cope with fire and rescue anyone who might happen to be in the burning building. Even in places of amusement every precaution was taken against any unfortunate accident occurring, but in the case of the mines they had half a million people going down the pits every day, and there was absolutely no provision made to combat these disasters. Was not that sufficient to cause the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to get up at once and say that they would order an inquiry into these terrible explosions and see what could be done. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think this matter might wait until after the inquest. There was no waiting in the case of the accident at Liverpool. He demanded of the Home Secretary that he should use the powers vested in him and have an inquiry into the cause of these disasters.
As a working man he would like to give the right hon. Gentleman a few practical suggestions for his consideration when the inquiry took place. In the first place they might well take up the work laid down by the Royal Commission m 1886, there being a number of inventions which that Commission advocated which ought to be taken up. Take the lamp. Surely the Government were rich enough to take up all the patents there were and concentrate them in one lamp which should be safe. Then there should be closed trams to carry the coal, because it must be borne in mind that they had now no large accumulations of gas. It was not large accumulations of gas that caused these violent explosions which caused such great loss of life, but the coal dust which, hanging in the
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atmosphere, acted as a feeder and carried the flame along, increasing its strength as it burnt up the atmosphere. That was a practical suggestion that might be considered when the inquiry was held. It was time also that the whole system of inspection of the mines was revised, and there should be properly trained firemen. Some of the men left alone in a mine after an explosion lived for hours, while the men at the top, who were anxious to assist them, were unable to get at them because of the flames. If they had an apparatus which would enable them to go down the pit, a great loss of life would be prevented. Surely such an apparatus might be provided. He had in his hand at that moment some illustrations sent to him by a Frenchman who knew of this agitation, of an apparatus which would enable a man to go down a mine after an explosion and remain there two or three hours, and some such apparatus might be adopted. He thought he had said sufficient to prove that an investigation was necessary, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would realise the importance of it and grant the inquiry desired.
MR. T. L. CORBETTdesired to call attention to the official Paper issued in 1903 with reference to the inspection of laundries. According to the official figures there were 82,652 women and girls under the regulations of the Factory Acts, while 144,132, of whom a large number were in religious institutions, were subject to no inspection at all. He asked whether the voluntary inspection to which a comparatively few of these institutions were willing to submit had proved satisfactory, and, if not, what remedy was to be proposed. In view of the ruling of the Chairman he did not intend to pursue the subject at any length. He only regretted that the Party opposite should take every opportunity of preventing light being thrown upon this subject, which urgently demanded attention, and he should be very glad if the Home Secretary was able to give the Committee some assurance that he was awake to the reality of the question, and would promise that if voluntary

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inspection had failed, as he would probably admit it had, something practical should be done.
MR. NOEL BUXTONsaid the general trend of the reports of the factory inspectors seemed to indicate an urgent need for greater stringency, and also the existence of some obstacles or interests which prevented that greater stringency being applied. Speaking as an employer of the kind of labour which came under the control of the Factory Acts, he could say that the attitude of many employers was one of cordial appreciation of the work done by the inspectors, and of the interference sanctioned by those Acts. In large factories it was impossible for directors to control the details of conditions of labour and of modes of payment; they were bound to rely upon the interference of the Factory Acts. If the employers wished to be humane and to avoid the competition of lax employers who were willing to take advantage of the liability of labourers to give way to unjust conditions, Home Office intervention was of great assistance. The system of moral suasion which had lately been in vogue was most unwelcome to the good employers, because it failed to bring up all to the same level. What was wanted was equal treatment, and, so far as his experience went, if equal treatment were meted out employers would be in favour of greater stringency. Laxity favoured the worst employers and was the enemy of public health.
There were many topics on which one felt inclined to touch after a perusal of the reports of the factory inspectors, but he would confine himself to two—the administration of the Truck Acts and the extension of the Particulars Order. In regard to the former, much might be done apart from legislation in the way of greater activity as to prosecution. The uncertainty of the law had come under the notice of the inspectors, who had called attention to the large number of cases dismissed as compared with the number of successful prosecutions under other departments of the Factory Acts. Almost anything might be deducted from wages under the heading of "justifiable payments."
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In one case, mentioned by the inspector at Bristol, a woman engaged in making boot-uppers by a power-driven machine earned 14s. 6d., from which 4s. 9d. was deducted for "other workers' work, doctor, room and machine, and thread," and the bench dismissed the case, saying that the deduction was not unfair. With regard to defective control, one of the women inspectors said—
"It was a relief to find one firm candid on this point. When I reached the point as to not making a profit out of the worker, the manager coolly said, 'Then I should not touch it, because I thought there was. £200 a year in the business.'"
A somewhat similar case appeared in to-day's Proceedings. It appeared that deductions could legitimately be made for such items as concert tickets, insurance against compensation for accidents, fees of certifying surgeons, rent, fines, for all manner of offences, such as talking in the factory, and so forth. The Christian Social Union gave a case in which a sackmaker earned 8s. 5d. r from which was deducted no less than 3s. 4d. for thread, oil, and hot water for tea.
With regard to the Particulars Order which had been justly described as the charter which prevented the people from being robbed, the Chief Inspector in 1902 strongly urged its extension to many trades outside the textile trades, a suggestion the justice of which was shown by the great success which had attended the extension granted on January 1st, 1904. Why should there not be a general extension to all piecework trades? As examples of the kind of grievances which needed to be removed, the Christian Social Union instanced brush-drawers, where payments were "according to the mood of the employer;" and jam-filling, where less money was received than was expected, it being "a case of the fireman's word against that of the workers." Low prices in many trades had been largely modified when a protection order had been enforced. The 5d. per dozen paid in the sack-making trade compared very unfavourably with the price paid in trades where the Particulars Order had been applied. The fact that during the last two years a large number of

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trades had voluntarily established a system of granting these particulars, largely answered the objection that in some trades the application of the Order was not feasible.
No doubt influences were brought to bear against the extension of powers of this kind. Certain interests were supposed to be opposed to greater stringency. But there was no interest in which the whole country was more deeply involved than the health and character of the workers, and that they were in danger could not be doubted by anyone familiar with the homes of the workers in the East End of London. Those who knew the suffocating conditions under which the workers through their poverty were compelled to live could not deny that the stringency of the Factory Acts had been to the general advantage of the public health, and therefore to the advantage of capitalist as well as employee. He had seen the deplorable result of conditions of employment upon the physique of the worker's children, and there was a very real danger of losing what was really our national capital by permitting such inroads upon the health and character of the people as were made by the conditions under which the people worked.
There were two main lines of defence by which those inroads could be opposed—viz., the voluntary combination of labour in its own defence and the protection of the operative by the State. This certainly was not a matter in regard to which any laxity ought to be permitted, or where Party principles should lead the Government to oppose stringent legislation. If to-day the nation accepted the principle of the control of labour by the State might they not gratefully acknowledge that it was the work of Conservative statesmen in the past. Nobody ever denounced more vehemently than Mr. Disraeli the horrors of the track system. Lord Shaftesbury, whose name would always be associated with this beneficent law, said this legislation dealt with the most tragic realities of our national life and went home to the real
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pleasures and sufferings of every family in the country. He said—
"It is a great political, moral, and religious question: political, because it would decide whether the poor should be left in just discontent; moral, because it would determine whether the rising generation should be raised above the enjoyment of mere brute sensualities; religious, because it evolved the means to tens of thousands of being brought up in the faith and fear of the Almighty."
MR. SHACKLETON (Lancashire,urged that more opportunities should be given for the discussion of these questions, and the Home Secetary ought to have more time given to him for repaying to debates of this kind. It was impossible for any Minister to reply to all the points raised over the wide field of labour, and certain subjects ought to be selected for one day, and then everybody would get a reasonable opportunity of stating his views. These labour questions would loom larger in the discussions of the future.
He wished to refer to the question of time cribbing, which meant that instead of working 55½ hours a week sometimes the workpeople were obliged to work on for 60 hours by the employers "nibbling" at the starting and stopping time. He once worked in a mill himself where by starting the engines before the proper starting time and running them after they ought to be stopped he worked about fifty minutes a day overtime, and this practice was going on to-day in Lancashire. This was very unfair to the decent employers, because where this practice prevailed the pieceworkers earned better wages and thus attracted the best employees. Employers had complained to him of this system of "nibbling" time. In fairness to the decent employer the Home Office should be on their guard. Last year he was told that the employees themselves were responsible, because they had scouts to watch for the appearance of the inspector. Personally he doubted the truth of that charge, and he had caused careful inquiries to be made. He would remind the right hon. Gentleman that it was not those operatives who were complaining of the overtime. There

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were operatives in the position of overlookers and foremen. At the mill he used to work at there were four members of the firm employed, and all the four of them were scouting when the engines were set on and stopped. They had made suggestions to the Home Office for checking this evil. There was a machine in use in many cotton mills which automatically registered the number of minutes an engine was running, and the employers had these machines in their own interests. In this way the employers could tell whether the engines had worked fifty-five or sixty hours, and they could judge whether the amount of their production was up or down, and they could obtain these results for weeks back. These registers might be taken by the inspectors as evidence of the time the engines had been running, and when an inspector found this practice going on and he was confronted with the excuse that it was a mistake, he could look at the register, and if it recorded more than the legal time for weeks back, that ought to be conclusive or additional evidence before the magistrate that this was not an isolated case, but a deliberate breach of the law. He made that as a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman, and he hoped the matter would be attended to.
With regard to ventilation, he would not criticise anything which had been done during the past year, because they had been changing the system of inspection, and he wished the new system to be given a, fair trial. He thought it would be admitted that the effectiveness of inspection was largely due to the help given by the operatives, and in regard to ventilation their assistance had enabled those who broke the law to be prosecuted. Therefore he thought more confidence ought to be placed in the operatives. He thought they were entitled to have a copy of the report of the inspector's visit as well as the employer, and if this request was granted there would be much more satisfaction with the operation of the ventilation clauses. He thought the table which would shortly be issued ought to give some evidence of the number of tests made and the results of them. These particulars might be given in tabulated form and supplied
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in a public document, so that they would know how they were going on.
With regard to machinery accidents he was pleased to say that some inquiries had been made with regard to the spinning room, and he was hopeful that certain regulations would be issued which would do a great deal to lessen accidents in the spinning rooms. The results of these inquiries in the Oldham district had been satisfactory, but they would have been still better but for the opposition from the Masters' Federation in Oldham and neighbourhood. He thought the fact that there had been considerable opposition in regard to the fencing of machinery by some of the employees in the Oldham district ought to be noted. It was most unfair that a man who held the dual position of solicitor to the employer should be magistrates' clerk to decide charges brought against employers. That gentleman should give up one or other of the offices, and there ought to be some power to tell him not to act as Judge and jury in what was practically his own case. The Home Secretary appreciated the unfairness of the position, but he had no power to alter it. In regard to the carding-room operatives, he was sorry to say that very little improvement had taken place. He would call the attention of the Committee to six cases of accidents to workers whose ages ranged from nineteen to forty, most of them being under thirty. Loss of right hand; loss of right arm; fatal—right arm fearfully mangled; loss of right hand; loss of left hand; loss of left hand. The report stated that these terrible accidents were all preventable. That was the opinion of the inspector for the district who was responsible for making the report. The people whom he represented in that House had done their best to bring before the Home Office the seriousness of this matter. There were machines in the market which would prevent many of these accidents. About eight or nine months ago a deputation visited the Home Office and showed a model of one of those machines. Not only the maker, but employers who had used it gave the assurance that it would be impossible for these serious accidents to happen

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if this "cover" were put over the machine. If accidents could be prevented surely no effort should be spared to save the lives and limbs of the people who were engaged in factories.
The recent legislation in regard to the Particulars Clause had been of great benefit to the textile operatives, and he was pleased to be able to state that many other trades were now receiving advantage from it. Employers in the cotton trade would agree with him when he said that it had been a great preventive of strikes. Formerly an employer who did not pay the proper price got an advantage over a decent employer who did, and the operatives had no remedy except by closing the mill. If the amount in dispute was only 3s. or 4s. they hesitated about taking that step, and the result was that an unprincipled man got the benefit of the position. Now all that was changed. They had simply to add up the total deficiency and take the men into Court, a strike being in this way averted. It had not in a single case in his experience been necessary to go into Court yet, each dispute having been settled out of Court. One of the inspectors stated in his report that the average penalty imposed when convictions were obtained under the Factories and Workshops Act was 3s. 6.8d. Unless employers looked upon appearance in a Police Court as a source of degradation, such penalties would never act as a deterrent. It was nonsense to fine a man 3s. 6d. for he could make more next day by means of deductions.
He wished to call the Home Secretary's attention to a case from Belfast to which reference was made in the report of the Chief Inspector. He had had a tremendous amount of correspondence in regard to this case, and he had also had an opportunity of examining the minute-book of the operatives association, and therefore he knew how the matter stood. Briefly, the facts were these. The Home Office some time since—he did not know when—decided that handkerchiefs were wearing apparel; but how they came to say so he did not know. It had, since that decision was given, been possible for firms to bring in a claim for exemption from the regulations affecting
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overtime work for quite a number of other articles besides handkerchiefs. It was alleged in connection with this particular case that the law was continually being broken, and that this firm or these firms—he did not know how many of them were concerned—had been going on in work in a way that was not legal. It was legal to work overtime in the making of handkerchiefs, but it was illegal to work overtime in making bed-linen, table-linen, and things of that sort. It was difficult for an inspector, when he went into a factory, to say what overtime was being worked legally and what overtime was being worked illegally, because one girl might be working at handkerchiefs and another at other articles. The ordinary common-sense way of dealing with this matter would have been to make overtime work on handkerchiefs illegal, especially when it was known that the operatives did not desire overtime. In his opinion overtime work ought to have been made illegal for all the articles. It appeared that in Belfast a warehouse was said to be a non-textile factory while the other part was a textile factory, and that overtime was allowed in one part of the same works and not in the other. It appeared to him that the proper course would have been to say that handkerchiefs were not wearing apparel. No amount of argument could convince ordinary persons that they were wearing apparel. It must have been a legal mind that had been convinced.
He complained that the Home Office took this action without the knowledge of the operatives. He knew it was not so easy to obtain information from operatives in Belfast as in Lancashire, but it was possible to obtain it. There was evidence to show that what had been done was not in accordance with the desire of the operatives themselves. Resolution after resolution had been passed protesting against overtime, and nowhere could he find any expression of opinion in Belfast by the operatives asking this extension to be granted. He thought the best way out of the difficulty would be to revert to the regulation which, made overtime in regard to handkerchiefs illegal. It appeared to him that that was the most sensible course to take in

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this matter. If it was decided that all these things could be brought under the head of the overtime clause he did not know where it was going to stop.
The hon. Member called attention to what had occurred at Liverpool in connection with the dock labourers' strike, and stated that the course pursued by the employers amounted to a breach of the Truck Act. A number of men were imported to take the places of the labourers on strike, and the employers provided them with clothes, boots, and tobacco, deductions being made in respect of the goods from the wages of the men. They received only the balance of money due to them. The Home Secertary had told him this was illegal, but, as the case was not one arising in a factory or workshop, an inspector had no power under Section 13 of the Act of 1887 to take any action in the matter. If that was so, there was nothing to prevent the Home Secretary from instructing one of his clerks to prosecute. He spoke as a layman, but he did not agree with the decision of the Home Secretary in the matter. He thought that that could be shown to be a part of the duty of the inspector. He referred to Section 119 of the Act to prove that. He thought it was most unfair that any preference should be given to one side or the other; and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the Answer which he had given.
MR. COGHILLsaid that he did not propose to follow the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean in the line which that right hon. Gentleman had traversed. It seemed to him that the right hon. Gentleman had presented his case in regard to china and earthenware factories in some what strong colours. It appeared to him that the cases of lead poisoning were slowly dying away and there was every reason to believe that the causes for these would disappear. The chief causes of that improvement were the greater cleanliness inculcated in the workpeople, the greater use of fans, and the power of suspension which the doctors now enjoved. If workpeople could only be induced to
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thoroughly cleanse themselves after being in contact with the lead, cases of poisoning would be almost entirely eliminated. But that was difficult. It was all very well to make rules; the difficulty was to get people to obey them. The right hon. Gentleman went on to quote, from the official report of Mr. Shooter, particulars with regard to a case at Plymouth. He insisted that there were two reasons for the diminution of colic cases in the dockyard. One was the provision of more washing appliances, and the other was the order issued to the effect that men who had once contracted lead poisoning should not be employed in any process which would bring them in contact with the lead. That was very similar to what was being done in the Potteries. Mr. Shooter went on to say that it was surprising to find how indifferent workmen were to the need for personal cleanliness, and he mentioned a case of workmen eating with filthy hands in a room which contained all the appliances for washing. Time must be allowed for men to get accustomed to the new rules and to see the necessity for using the conveniences which were now placed at their disposal for cleansing themselves. He also gave instances of people who neglected to adopt precautions; of a plumber who persisted in chewing tobacco at work, which tobacco became contaminated, and of girls who ate sweets which became contaminated with lead from their pockets.
He believed that the power of suspension had had a most beneficial effect. The right hon. Baronet seemed to suggest that that power was being used in a somewhat wholesale fashion; but he showed, by references to the reports, that that was not the case. The hon. Baronet contended that the use of yellow phosphorus should be forbidden altogether; but he thought in the present state of knowledge it was absolutely impossible to prohibit its use. They were told two years ago that the use of lead would gradually disappear, and that leadless glazes would become almost universal. So far from progress having been made in that direction, the use of leadless glaze was actually going back. The reason was that great

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losses had been entailed upon manufacturers by its use. People using leadless glaze could not possibly make the ordinary trade profit, and could not meet the severe foreign competition to which they were subjected. In fact, leadless glazes had broken down. They would be glad if they could be used universally; but they were a long way from that. A great deal more had to be learned about the industry, and further discoveries must be made before the Home Office, however anxious it might be to do it, could forbid the use of lead in the process of pottery manufacture. So far as they were concerned in North Staffordshire, the prevailing opinion was that the present rules were working very satisfactorily and that there had been a very gratifying diminution in the number of cases of lead poisoning.
MR. TENNANTsaid lie thought it would be acknowledged that the debate had been of a most interesting character. On his own part he must confess that it would be impossible to exaggerate the importance of this question, and he regretted that this debate had been delayed to the last days of an exciting session. He might be allowed to say that he could not congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the progress he had made in regard to the employment of young children in the streets. At one time he carried an Amendment prohibiting altogether the employment of children under sixteen in the streets; but they were told by the Government that they would leave it to the local authorities to make the best provision they could for their protection. In many cases local authorities had suggested that it would be wise to prohibit altogether girls under sixteen being allowed to sell in the streets, but the right hon. Gentleman had caused to be inserted in by-laws a provision that children should be allowed to sell in the streets so long as they were accompanied by their parents or guardians. He said it did not matter if they had got their parents with them. He joined issue with the right hon. Gentleman there. The right hon. Gentleman had caused an inquiry to be held into the matter by Mr. Chester Jones, and at that inquiry Mr.Footes, a
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very competent person, said that the fathers did not do much work, and sometimes the mothers were not very particular about their own children. Some of the worst cases were where children were employed by parents. One of the worst cases in his list was that of a boy whose father was a hairdresser, and who worked forty-nine and a-half hours a week besides school hours. What hold could they have upon people if they were allowed to trail their little boys and girls through the streets in order to make some few pennies. It was said that those men and women were very poor and that it was really a necessity, but at that very inquiry it was shown that out of sixty-nine cases there was only one which was necessitous.
It was now exactly ten years since he had the honour of sitting upon a Commission to inquire into dangerous trades. They reported that there were twenty-four such trades, and they recommended that seventeen of them should be specially regulated. How many of these seventeen had been so regulated? Precisely two and a-half. There were three or four trades which were now under a sort of voluntary system, which he ventured to say was most unsatisfactory. There were seventeen recommended for special regulations, two and a-half had been so regulated, three or four were under voluntary schemes, and ten had been left wholly untouched. Of the two and a-half dealt with by the Home Office, one was the indiarubber trade, which was dangerous for two or three reasons; one being owing to the naphtha which was given off in the atmosphere and which was used in every part of the building. What did the inspector say with regard to naphtha? He said—
"Some cases to which my attention was drawn of sickness, colic, and anæmia, alleged to be caused by white lead, occurring amongst girls in the rubber-solution room of an asbestos factory, were investigated by Miss Paterson at the works and at the homes, inquiry also being made at the infirmary. The process was that of coating and joining asbestos strips with rubber solution of a milky, glutinous character, emitting strong fumes of naphtha. 'Many of these girls were markedly anæmic and had symptoms similar to those so common amongst rubber-shoemakers. One who was under treatment at the hospital as an out-patient for loss of power of arm was strikingly pale and

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nervous. On inquiry, I found that many of the workers ate their breakfast and dinner in the workroom, and, undesirable as this is in any factory, it is especially so in one where the air is loaded with the heavy fumes of naphtha and rubber solution.'"
That was one of the subjects recommended by the Dangerous Trades Commission for treatment by the Home Office, and yet they had done nothing.
He now came to the perennial question of laundries, on which subject they would not rest until it was dealt with. In the Report to which he had just alluded, it was stated that those places were physically and morally dangerous and unhealthy even when parents were present.
There was in the china and earthenware trade no doubt great difficulty experienced on the part of employers to get the workpeople to avail themselves of the opportunities placed at their disposal for cleanliness and to utilise in every possible form the appliances provided for the safety of their health, and he wished to strengthen the hands of the inspectors and employers in that matter. It was, however, childish to try and make out that the whole of the illnesses in the pottery trade were owing to the neglect of the work-people to seize these opportunities. If they were to wash their hands at every (available time, and to use all the opportunities at their command, lead working would always remain a dangerous occupation. It was true that there had not been so many suspensions, but, after all, suspension was only a palliative, and it was less cruel to ask women who proved to be susceptible to lead poisoning to go to some other employment. He rejoiced that there were fewer suspensions, but he thought it meant that many poor women were now living upon the charity of other people and were not able to earn their livelihood in other trades. He suggested that a small Commission should be appointed to inquire whether it was economically and commercially possible to make leadless glaze ware which would compete satisfactorily with the ordinary ware, and that they should communicate with foreign countries on the point. He believed that a great deal of leadless glaze had been manufactured that was extremely good. He
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himself had a dessert service which would bear comparison with any modern service. One might certainly learn a great deal by discovering what was the result of experience with regard to this matter in foreign countries.
There was one other point he would like to make with regard to the china and earthenware trade, and that was with reference to the question of compensation. Schedule B which was hung up in factories was so complicated that women thought it was limited to men. He suggested that the Home Secretary should have a little abstract made setting forth the manner in which a person who was a victim of lead poisoning should acquaint the authorities. If the right hon. Gentleman would have an extract hung up instead of Schedule B it would, he thought, do a great deal of good.
Turning to the cases of poisoning from every cause, he was sorry to see that if they took the five months ending May, 1904, they would find the number of cases was 229, whilst the number for the corresponding period in 1905 was 239. The deaths were eight in 1904, and eleven in 1905. That showed a considerable increase. But if they investigated further and looked at the Return of what were called the diseases of occupation, which included poisoning by mercury, phosphorus, arsenic, and anthrax, in the Labour Gazette, they would find that the figures were 258 last year and 268 this, whilst the deaths were ten last year as against nineteen this. That was very striking, the number of deaths this year having nearly doubled. As many as eight deaths had been caused by anthrax, which was a very serious thing, and he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not do something to improve the condition of those trades in which these diseases occurred.
With regard to the question of lifting heavy weights, he called attention to the report of Miss Squire. On page 26 of the annual Report Miss Squire said—
"It is surprising how little thought is given in many factories of various kinds to the means of transference of goods from one department to another, little girls toil backwards and for wards up and down stairs with loads of

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material or goods which could be much more quickly or safely carried by means of a lift."
And further on she said of a girl who was pushing a trolley up an incline, the paving of which was rough and broken—
"I watched her do this difficult task with astonishment that anyone could set a girl to such an awkward and exhausting employment."
He would give three examples of the lifting of heavy weights. A boy of thirteen years of age struggling up a steep flight of stairs carrying a piece of clay weighing seventy-eight pounds; a woman carrying twelve boards each six feet in length and each weighing four pounds, forty-eight pounds in all; and four women employed solely as clay carriers, each making 128 journeys a day, some of which were a fair distance, and at each journey carrying a piece of clay weighing half a hundredweight. "We were very far behind other nations in this matter. It was a most remarkable thing that while learned and right hon. Gentlemen went about the country declaring that in these matters this country was in front of others, we were far behind France, and both Germany and Austria had given us most admirable examples.
Then with regard to electrical accidents. Two years ago the inspector reported and made certain recommendations, and in view of the fact that the Committee over which he (Mr. Tennant) presided six years before had made precisely the same recommendations—it was rather remarkable that no legislative or quasi-legislative action had been taken. By a stroke of the pen the right hon. Gentleman at any rate could make special rules with regard to electric power stations. The inspector said—
"The number of unprotected and dangerous switches, for instance, which I have caused to be protected will run into many hundreds."
He really desired to show the House what the nature of electrical accidents was. They mostly occurred from bad lighting, from want of fencing, and other causes of a like character. There were thirty-three non-fatal and three fatal cases last year due solely to electric current and Mr. Scott Ram, the inspector,
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made this statement with regard to them—
"The fatal electrical accidents during the year occurred under widely different conditions of system and pressure and again prove that unless proper precautions are taken any system or pressure may be dangerous. Fatal shocks occurred at pressures ranging from 10,000 volts to 200 volts. Some of those at low pressures appeared to bring about instant death while in one case at 10,000 volts death occurred after an interval of ten days, during which the victim lost both legs and one arm by amputation in the fruitless efforts of the surgeons to save his life. In most cases which I investigated the victims were found by post-mortem examination to have been of sound constitution, and the usual excuse of a weak heart contributing to the fatality was not borne out. Some of the non-fatal accidents were again of a very serious nature, involving permanent injury."
He thought there was very strong ground there for the Home Office taking action, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would have something to tell the Committee of what he proposed to do.
With regard to the factories, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean had asked for an increase in the inspectorate, and he was glad to see that the two women inspectors who had been appointed temporarily were now placed on the permanent staff. He was also glad to think that the club associations of which Miss Montague was the president or secretary was petitioning the right hon. Gentleman for an increase in the inspectorate. Finally, he would remind the Committee that there were 4,700,000 people employed in the factories and workshops of this country, and that in 1904 there were 93,000 accidents; that is to say, there was one accident to every fifty people employed. It was a most unfortunate thing that in many of these cases the only way to secure immunity from accidents was to have recourse to the Employers' Liability Act or the Workmen's Compensation Act.
SIR JOHN GORSTsaid he hoped that when the Home Secretary replied he would explain to the Committee what was being done under the Employment of Children Act. The employment of children in the hours they were not at school had frequently been brought before the House. The mischief of that employment was that children

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came to the schools so exhausted with labour that they were quite incapable of profiting from the instruction provided by the State at great expense. In regard to this matter two official inquiries had been made, one by the Board of Education in 1891 and the other by the Home Office in 1899 or 1900, and in 1903 a Bill was brought in and passed. The Employment of Children Act had now been in force two years, and there were two Questions he wished to put to the right hon. Gentleman in regard to it. Under the Act the local authority for the Metropolis had power to make bylaws as to the employment of children, but those by-laws had no force until they had received the sanction of the Home Secretary. The local authority had at last made by-laws, which had been submitted to the Secretary of State, and there was an inquiry now going on not only as to the merits of the particular by-laws, but, as he understood, the whole question had been reopened. It was not a question deperding on the poverty of the parents, as some of the very poorest would not allow their children to be employed in this way. A most remarkable case had come out in evidence. There were a large number of Jewish barbers, but it was impossible to obtain Jewish lather boys, because their parents, although extremely poor, would not allow them to be so employed out of school hours. As to the country at large, he would like to know how many local authorities had made bylaws, and whether the Secretary of State regarded it as a part of his duty to urge upon the local authorities the propriety of making such by-laws. The Act was of no use for the protection of children unless the local authorities could be induced to make by-laws, and a judicious circular from the Home Office, pointing out the action which had been taken in London and elsewhere, might greatly accelerate the framing of by-laws throughout the country generally, as it would bring home to local authorities their responsibility under the Act.
In view of the number of Members who desired to speak, he would only make two general observations. At the first Labour Congress held in Berlin fifteen years ago
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Great Britain was ahead of almost every other country in Europe in the matter of factory legislation, and the argument used to foreign employers was that our regulations in no way interfered with the efficiency of our production, but that, although a protection to the workers, they were also an advantage to the employer. He did not quarrel with tariff reformers for saying that our factory legislation was a great burden on our industries and gave our foreign competitors an advantage over us; of course it was not true, but they had so few arguments to place before the working classes that one could not blame them for using any argument that they were able to furbish up for the occasion. But he did earnestly hope that such an argument would not be countenanced by the Government either at home or abroad. The second observation he desired to make was that much greater opportunities for the discussion of these social questions ought to be afforded at an earlier period of the session, when Members were fresher and better able to deal with the subject properly. Nothing could have been more proper in the deliberations of Parliament than the speeches delivered that afternoon. They had been clear, practical, and to the point. The Home Office had enormous power over labour questions in the way of making regulations and so forth, and upon the efficient administration of the Home Office depended a great deal of our industrial happiness and prosperity. He made no attack upon the Home Office; on the whole their action was extremely good, but it was most essential that that action should be discussed in the House. It was only by the application of criticisms and Questions by such Members as the hon. Member for Clitheroe and others who had practical knowledge of the trades that the working of the Home Office could be made of a wholly satisfactory character. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman, if in office next session, would press upon the Cabinet the importance of these matters being discussed earlier in the year.
MR. EMMOTTagreed as to the desirability of discussing these questions earlier in the session, and

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suggested that, if necessary, to secure that end the House should be willing to take the debate even before the factory inspectors' reports were available. He was glad to notice that there was a considerable diminution in the number of accidents in textile mills, particularly cotton mills, and especially that so few fatal accidents occurred inside the mills. There ought really to be none at all. The new restrictions with regard to mules in cotton mills had had an excellent effect, the accidents from mules having decreased from 810 in 1900 to 587 in 1904, which he thought was ample justification for the imposition of the restrictions. Suggestions had been made with regard to the carding room which had not earned the acquiescence of either employers or operatives. It was frequently difficult to introduce into old machines improvements which might very properly be insisted upon in the case of new machines. He noticed with regret that Oldham was animadverted upon by the inspector for its conservatism in adopting improvements. Oldham was conservative in some respects; the people were apt to think that in these matters they knew a great deal better than any inspector from outside. In other matters they were fairly open-minded, as was shown by the fact that in 1900 they returned his hon. friend his colleague in the representation of Oldham as a Conservative and himself as a Liberal.
In regard to some matters the report of the factory inspector laid the blame, and he thought properly, upon the operatives. For instance, accidents due to cleaning machinery while running often occurred through the operators being so anxious to leave their work at the earliest possible moment on Saturday. If necessary, it would be perfectly justifiable to keep the mill doors closed until twevle o'clock, the Saturday hour for the men to leave. There was a slight increase in the accidents from flying shuttles. Some of these occurred through the shuttleguard being tied up by the operatives. When operatives were guilty of these misdemeanours they ought to be prosecuted. Time-cribbing was a misdemeanour from which both honest employers and honest operatives suffered very much, because the people who ran their works for a
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longer time than they ought were able to give the piece-workers a larger wage and to secure larger profits for themselves. Some factory inpectors said the operatives lent themselves to the system of scouting and thus helped to defeat the proper carrying out of the law. The operatives got a larger wage owing to the cribbing of time just as the employer obtained a larger profit; their interest, therefore, was to defeat the law. He did not know how it was to be overcome. It was utterly unfair to the honest employer who desired to keep to the time allowed by law. In the large inspecting districts it was impossible for the factory inspectors to do more than catch a few offenders here and there. There were machines which would record to a fraction of a second what time was worked, and if there was no other way of enforcing the law he would be very glad to see those mechanical appliances generally adopted.
On the question of women inspectors he pointed out that those appointed had to cover immense districts and were overworked; they were mostly employed on special reports, and many more of those women inspectors were wanted in order that the enormous number of women employed in factories might have adequate protection. Ghastly stories were told of the way in which the comparatively new law with regard to women returning to work after childbirth was infringed. That could be stopped if the law were altered. There were certain recommendations in the Report of the Physical Deterioration Committee which, if carried out, would stop it. This infringement was the cause of a terrible amount of suffering, and if it was permitted it would be impossible to raise up a virile race of men in the large towns who would be able to carry on the traditions of the country. He was pleased to see the new boiler legislation of the last Factory Act was working satisfactorily. He wished the same kind of safeguards were applied to other boilers as were now applied to boilers in factories and workshops.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean Division of Gloucestershire had referred to the subject of international agreement with regard to dangerous trades and factory

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legislation. He complained that they had sent to the conference last year men of inferior rank with far too stringent instructions. Great Britain ought to be doing everything possible to forward the aims of this conference. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University that there was no reason to suppose that our factory legislation had gone too far. He had no sympathy with the views he had heard so often expressed that they had far too much grandmotherly legislation. The Factory Acts had levelled up the worst employers to the position of better employers, they had helped the honest as opposed to the unscrupulous employers, and at the same time the effect had been to improve the physical well-being of the people. All factory legislation was a question of levelling up, and the Factory Department had never required anything to be done that the better class of employers were not already doing. On the Continent in the past they had been treated as pioneers, but they were not pioneers in everything now, although in regard to many things they were still ahead. An effort was being made to induce them to alter fundamentally their fiscal system in order to secure better conditions for workmen, but that seemed to him to be an entirely wrong method. He did not think that anything could be done for the workers in that way, although they might do a good deal more by factory legislation and by international agreement. Just as factory legislation at home had helped the honest and humane employer, so would international agreement help to obtain the best conditions for labour and assist the progressive nation in competing with the backward nation.
He did not altogether accept the reasoning of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, though he thought there was a great deal to be said for the view that all these restrictions had not seriously handicapped them in the commercial race. On the other hand, if the right hon. Gentleman had been able to look at this matter from the point of view of an employer he would have seen
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how all these requirements must cost money and must pro tanto handicap them. They nevertheless got a benefit from it in the physical well-being of the workers, and this he hoped in the long run paid them. When, however, one employer ran his works upon the most approved principles and he saw another employer competing with him who paid less wages and worked longer hours in old factories, then, for the moment, the employer who observed the better conditions felt that he was considerably handicapped, and that was the view that he particularly desired to emphasise in regard to this question of international agreement. It was not only just, but it was economically wise for this country to do all it could to encourage other nations to come up to our level. With regard to the forthcoming conference, which he understood was to be held next year, he hoped the Home Secretary, if he continued in office, would not only send men of adequate rank for the purpose, but that he would also give very liberal instructions and help them to secure on behalf of this country an advance in the direction of an improvement in dangerous trades and other matters of factory legislation. He pressed that view upon him for the credit of this country and because he believed that it was a wise as well as a just and humane thing to do.
MR. FENWICKsaid he associated himself with those who had expressed the hope that more time would be devoted to the consideration of the Home Office Vote in future sessions. Hon. Members who had sat through the debate must have been struck with the important character and the great variety of the subjects to which attention had been drawn on a Vote such as they were now considering. The time at their disposal was insufficient and was not fair to the Home Secretary, who was most anxious to give the fullest information in regard to every detail which came within the scope of his duties. It was not fair that they should be deprived every year of opportunities for the full consideration of the vital questions which concerned the social life of those they represented in Parliament. The industrial holocaust

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from year to year was largely due to preventable causes, and it therefore became a matter of grave importance that due time should be given for the practical consideration of remedies. He wished to support the appeal which had been made to the Home Secretary by the hon. Member for West Monmouthshire in the eminently practical speech which he had addressed to the Committee. In answer to a Question by the hon. Member the Home Secretary informed them the other day that during the last fifty years something like 9,294 lives had been lost in coal mines through explosions. Although at the present time the average loss of life in proportion to the number of persons employed and the quantity of minerals produced was less than it had ever been, the total still stood at an alarmingly high figure. It was over 1,000 per annum. That was a serious sacrifice of human life to be going on year after year.
The question for them to consider was what could be done to minimise this terrible sacrifice of life. As one who had some practical experience of the work done in mines and the dangers to be faced, he confessed that the difficulty of providing a remedy for the terrible evil of accidents was very great indeed. Experience taught them that one of the penalties they had to pay for the discoveries of modern science for the saving of life and limb in mines was that while on the one hand they had been providing a remedy against certain evils, they had created new, and probably, in many respects, more serious dangers. For many years their contention was that if they could only have a system of ventilation in coal mines approaching anything like perfection, they would be able to chase the dangerous fire damp out of the mines and procure for the miners almost perfect immunity from danger, but just as they had succeeded in developing the ventilation of the mines they had created new dangers, for the more perfect the system of ventilation of a mine was the more it tended to stir up the fine particles of coal dust strewn all through the mines from the shaft to the working face. These finely-divided particles of coal dust in suspension throughout the mine were capable, if sufficient violence were brought to bear.
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on them, of being ignited and creating a most serious explosion. It was not necessary to have a large quantity of inflammable gas in a coal mine in order to have a serious explosion. If they had a blown-out shot in a mine where there was a large quantity of finely-divided particles of coal dust in a very dry condition, there was imminent risk of a very serious explosion indeed. The evil which they had to contend against was therefore one of a complex character.
Some of the suggestions made by his hon. friend the Member for West Monmouth were of an eminently practical character, and if they were attended to by the Home Office they might go a long way indeed in preventing accidents from occurring in mines and in saving a number of valuable lives. Attention had been called that afternoon, as had been done again and again before, to the necessity for closer and more careful examination of mines by the staff of inspectors. He knew there was great reluctance on the part of the Treasury to find the necessary money when applications for factory and mining inspectors were made. They found the money necessary to destroy life, but when it came to a question of preserving life then they were very economical and very reluctant to find the money for that purpose. He contended that without a large increase in the number of what might be called expert inspectors a very great deal could be done if those gentlemen were relieved of a vast amount of the clerical duty which they had now to perform. Many of these gentlemen had to spend the greater part of their year's service in attending inquests, making special reports to the Home Office, and attending to their general clerical duties. If some assistance were given to them whereby they would be enabled to get rid of a lot of their clerical work they would hi able to devote more attention than now to the real work of inspection of coal mines. He would be the last man to bring any charge against the staff of inspectors employed by the Home Office. He knew that they were greatly overworked, and he hoped something would be done to give them relief.

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His hon. friend the Member for West Monmouth had referred to the indifference of the Home Office in the way of giving assistance in regard to experiments which coalowners carried out in various parts of the country in the interest of the industry in which they were concerned. In France and Prussia there were permanent advisory boards, which took charge of matters of this kind, and he thought we might very well follow their example in that respect. He had the honour a short time ago of serving on the Royal Commission on Coal Dust which was presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, who, he was bound to say, rendered very valuable service in that matter. During the time the Commission was conducting its inquiry in the North of England the coalowners of Durham and Northumberland were spending a large sum of money in the erection of galleries for the purpose of conducting experiments in shot firing in an atmosphere of coal dust and fire damp. Perhaps the Home Office had not the power to offer some assistance to enable the coalowners to carry on their experiments, but it had power to apply to the head of the Government on the subject. These experiments, which were of an eminently useful and practical character, had to be abandoned because there were not funds enough to continue the investigations. He thought some useful work could be done in that way either by a permanent national board or by district boards. Experiments of the character referred to could be conducted from time to time with regard to explosives, shot- firing, and the testing of the safety lamps to be used in mines. He thought also something might be done by the Home Office to enforce the suggestions of the Royal Commission of 1886 with regard to the qualifications of shot-firers. The position of shot-firer was one of great responsibility, and great care should be taken to see that the man who was placed in that position was possessed of the qualifications necessary to enable him to satisfactorily discharge his duty. They should be men of a steady and sober character, capable of discharging their important duties. He thought that more care ought to be taken in the
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selection of the men who were to be employed as firemen.
Then he thought that the Home Office should insist that at every mine, especially a mine of a known fiery character, there should be in readiness apparatus which would enable rescuers to descend into the mine immediately after an explosion had taken place. If there was a big fire in the city, everyone knew that it was important to have the fire brigade on the spot in a few minutes. Delay was costly. And so it was when an explosion took place in a mine; the delay of an hour, or a couple of hours, sometimesed to the sacrifice of valuable lives, and that delay was often caused from the want of proper appliances to get down into the mine at once. He did not want to give a testimonial to any inventor of such appliances, but it was well known that there were such appliances. His hon. friend the Member for Chester-le-Street told him that at his collieries such appliances were always in readiness in case an explosion took place. He had seen men operating such appliances as he had refemed to when he was a member of a Committee of that House, and he held that every colliery should be provided with such apparatus for immediate use in case of an explosion. He himself believed that if an intimation from the Home Secretary were given to colliery proprietors that such appliances were in existence, and that they should provide themselves with them, the suggestion would be at once adopted.
In conclusion, he wished to back up the appeal which his hon. friend the Member for West Monmouthshire had made to the Home Secretary to grant a special inquiry into the causes of the recent disaster at Wattstown. He did not believe that the right hon. Gentleman would refuse such an appeal. The Home Secretary had a perfectly free hand in the matter. The Act of 1857 gave him the power to institute such a special inquiry, and he was sure that if such a special inquiry were made it would be a satisfaction to the riends of all those who had suffered from that terrible disaster in South Wales.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's)said he could not complain of the tone of the debate. Several hon. Members had stated that it would be desirable in future to have this Vote put down at an earlier period of the session; to that he agreed. So far as he was concerned, he could assure the House that his influence had been on the side of an early and full discussion of the Vote. Not only was that desired by a large number of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who represented to a large extent workmen who had great practical knowledge of the matters discussed in the debate, but it would have been of advantage to himself to have had the debate earlier in the session, when it would have been easier for him to avail himself of the advice of hon. Members. He had not made himself in any way hostile to the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and he had received the greatest help from them with regard to various rules and regulations. He was extremely grateful for it, and he hoped it would be continued. The hon. Member for Wansbeck, who had spoken, had given great and valuable services to the Home Office; and he trusted he would agree with him that the staff of the Home Office, whether they were mining inspectors or Departmental officials, were always ready to recognise assistance given them.
He had got a very long list of matters to deal with, and he had not a very long time in which to do it. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean had brought forward the question of the international conference which took place in the spring of the present year. At that conference there were two matters considered. One was the absolute prohibition of white phosphorus and the sale and importation of matches made from it, and the other was the regulation of night work for women. The right hon. Baronet suggested that the delegates they appointed were not equal in rank to the delegates of other countries. From information he had from the delegates themselves, he was not of that opinion. It was perfectly true that there were at Berne one or two delegates of higher Governmental rank
1398
than the British delegates, but these latter were certainly not inferior to the delegates of Germany, Austria, Sweden, Denmark, and other countries. The right hon. Baronet said that limitations were imposed upon the delegates. As he had pointed out, they were sent as delegates and not as plenipotentiaries. The instructions they had were to lay before the conference the results already obtained with regard to the use of white phosphorus in match making and with regard to the night working of women, to give the fullest information of the system adopted in this country, and to submit a report of the proceedings of the conference. They, therefore, had no power to bind their country to anything without the consideration of their Government.
With regard to the two subjects which were under consideration, the Committee would remember that, so far as the use of white phosphorus was concerned, it was only five years ago that a set of very strict rules were settled. The result was that the number of cases of "phossy jaw" greatly decreased. After the passing of the rules in 1900, there were three cases in 1901, four in 1902, one in 1903, and none in 1904. When our delegate spoke at the conference, he was able to say there were none that year, but, as the right hon. Baronet and the Committee knew, there had since been an outbreak of three cases. It was stated then that the number was three, but he was assured now that one of those three was not a case of "phossy jaw." With regard to the night working of women, our law was very much stricter than the regulations proposed by the conference. Women in this country worked only ten hours in the textile factories and ten and a-half hours in the non-textile trades. They could not be employed before six nor after eight, nor more than five hours without an interval of half-an-hour for meals. They had weekly half-holidays, Sundays, and Bank Holidays, and the exemptions allowed in respect of the season trades and perishable goods were not so wide as those proposed by the conference. Therefore they were asked to agree to regulations which did not give quite so

1399
much to our employees as they had under existing circumstances.
The resolutions were intended to he be of an international character, and to lead to an international convention. Since the conference the Government had received an invitation to enter into such a convention. The two subjects had been considered, and so far as he could see they could not at present prohibit the use of white phosphorus. Such prohibition would destroy the remainder of the industry of matchmaking with white phosphorus in this country. Even if red phosphorus were all that it was said to be, manufacturers would require time to learn new processes and to teach them to their workmen. All this would have to be done before the Government could assent to prohibition. It was an open question whether the existing special rules would not satisfactorily deal with this matter and succeed in stamping out this terrible disease. They were still awaiting the result of an inquiry which had been o dered into the Gloucester cases. They ought not to sign a convention which, if not "universally observed, would do commercial injury to our own people. The right hon. Gentleman was so well informed in these matters that he would not venture to contradict him on any matter of this kind, but he had that afternoon refreshed his memory on the point, and he understood that, so far as the information of his Department went, there was no reason to suppose that other countries, especially Japan, were likely to come in. So far as night labour for women was concerned, there would be no harm in joining a convention to regulate it, provided that the other countries who signed the convention gave adequate pledges that the regulations would be enforced. We enforced our own factory laws strictly; hut if in one of two countries bound by identical regulations those regulations were less strictly enforced than in the other, considerable hardship would be inflicted on the country where there was the more rigid enforcement. The general policy of entering into international agreements on these industrial matters would have to be considered. He was not prepared
1400
on the part of the Government to say that they could enter into any binding international agreement on industrial matters until they were assured that all the competing industrial countries could be brought into the agreement, and had further, complete guarantees for the uniform enforcement of the agreed regulations in all of those countries. The question of the duration of such agreements would also have to be carefully considered.
On the question of lead poisoning, he thought the inspector's report was not unsatisfactory. There had been a slight increase in cases in the last two years; but there were fewer cases in the first part of the present year than in the first half of 1904, and so far as the year had gone it compared favourably with previous years. The figures must be watched with care, but the existing special rules were only recently settled, after an exhaustive arbitration, by Lord James, and they would not be justified in making an alteration in them at the present time.
Many important matters had been discussed, one of the most important having been raised by the hon. Member for Monmouthshire, who, in an extremely able speech, made a request to him that he would grant an inquirv under Section 45 of the Act of 1887 into the dreadful accident which had recently occured at Wattstown. The hon. Member had formed the erroneous impression that he had already refused an inquiry, but what he had said throughout was that he could not take any steps for the appointment of a special inquiry until the result of the inquest, now being held, was known. Such inquests had in the past proved to be very thorough and careful, and in this instance special care had been taken to ensure its completeness. At the request of the hon. Member for Rhondda, whose absence and the cause of it they much regretted, counsel who could speak the Welsh language had been employed to attend on behalf of the Home Office, and the mines inspectors of the districts and adjoining district were also in attendance. These gentlemen had examined the workings, and would give the inquest all possible information. When the verdict

1401
had been given, and he had considered the report of the Home Office counsel and of the two inspectors, if he found reason to suppose that an inquiry was desirable he should direct one without hesitation. It had never, hitherto, however, been found necessary to hold an inquiry under Section 45 in a case where an inquest had already been held. Such special inquiries were held in Scotland up to 1895, but since the passing of the Fatal Accidents (Scotland) Bill in that year, none had been held even in Scotland.
The hon. Member for Wansbeck had dealt with several questions arising out of this accident. One of his suggestions was that steps ought to be taken to provide all mines with appliances and apparatus both in the nature of ambulance and for the artificial supply of breathable air. He understood from the report of the inspector, that so far as the ambulance and first-aid appliances prescribed under General Rule 34 were concerned, all the requirements of that rule were well observed at this particular colliery. He was sorry to say, however, that in this district, for some time past, it had been difficult to get men to attend the St. John's Ambulance lectures or to pass the first-aid examination. As to the oxygen apparatus, he would consider whether a circular letter should be sent to colliery owners suggesting provision of this apparatus. Such appliances did exist, and some of them were safe, and met probable requirements. There were, however, some descriptions of the apparatus against which he had been warned, as they might be dangerous to those using them. The matter, however, was certainly well worthy of attention.
The hon. Member for Monmouth had criticised the system of inspection, quoting Professor Galloway to the effect that, if the inspection were effectually carried out, there should be no accidents. The hon. Member suggested that the inspectors were overworked. He was, of course, aware of the large amount of work inspectors had to do, but did not think that the staff was inadequate; and, so far as he could learn from owners and men, they were energetic and well qualified. It had been
1402
suggested that men with more technical knowledge would be better qualified to discharge the duties of inspectors, but he thought that the Inspectors' Education was such as to fit them in every way for the work they had to perform.
MR. T. RICHARDSsaid his remarks about having better educated men applied to firemen.
MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: That firemen occupied extremely important positions he quite agreed, but they were appointed by colliery owners, not by the Home Office. He associated himself with the desire to see them well qualified for their position.
The hon. Member for Monmouth had called attention to the large number of mining accidents, quoting figures in support of his contention. But those figures had relation to a long series of years, and applied to the whole country, and if the Committee would look at the table of accidents caused by explosions it would be seen that there had been happily a falling off in recent years.
The subject raised by the hon. Members for Down and Belfast gave rise to much discussion upon the occasion when his right hon. friend the Member for Croydon had charge of the Bill for amending the Factory Act. The House would probably remember that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon intended to deal with the question, but that owing to very strong opposition at the last moment the particular clause in his Bill relating to the inspection of laundries had to be abandoned. Since then his right hon. friend had given a pledge that he would deal with the question on the first opportunity. He had tried for the past two or three years to do what he could by voluntary inspection, and a large number of conventual houses carrying on laundry. work had voluntarily accepted inspection. On the other hand, he confessed that inspection under the voluntary system was not wholly satisfactory. The inspector could not visit without notice being given of his coming, and had, of course, no power to insist on his recommendations being carried out. He adhered to the

1403
pledge given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon, and although he could not talk about legislation then while they were in Committee, he was prepared at once to introduce legislation to carry out the intention of his right hon friend.
And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress: to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING

  SUPPLY [19TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Commitee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. GRANT LAWSON (Yorkshire, N. R., Thirsk) in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1905–6.

  CLASS II.
  1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,629, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and Subordinate Offices."
  SIR ALFRED THOMASsaid that they had in the Watts-town explosion one of those dreadful calamities that from time to time shocked civilisation. Thoughtful people asked each other, were all the precautions that science and experience taught us exercised in those perilous industries. There were many reasons for fearing that such was not the case. They believed that many facts brought out by scientific research and practical experience were altogether ignored in the conduct of working in fiery seams. It was now more than twenty-seven years ago since he accompanied a scientist, who also was a near relative, for some two months in
  1404
  visiting all the great collieries then working in South Wales, for the purpose of collecting gas from blowers and other sources, and this scientist gave his experience in a work entitled "Coal Mine Gases and Ventilation." Among the facts that he brought to light was that an admixture of air and marsh gas which, under normal pressure, was non-explosive, would under greater pressure become explosive. The experiments were conducted with samples of air and gas free from coal dust. Those experiments proved why it was that explosions in colleries known to be comparatively free from gas, except in one or more small areas, would in the event of an explosion often extend to all the workings in that particular seam. Therefore he contended that the real point of danger was not that at which a quantity of gas and air would explode under atmospheric conditions, but the quantity that would explode under greater pressure. This, of course, was but one of many instances brought out by the gentleman to whom he had referred, and others wrorking in the same field.
  Principal Griffiths, of the University College of South Wales and Monmouth, of which he had the honour to be President, was prompted to write a letter to his hon. friend the Member for the Rhondda in which he made some most valuable suggestions. They all regretted that this great labour leader was absent to-day, but they were also cheered with the fact that he had so far recovered that it needed physical force on the part of his medical attendant to restrain him from coming to the debate. They had seen that afternoon what a splendid lieutenant he had in the hon. Member for West Monmouth. He would read a paragraph of the letter of Principal Griffiths—
  "We have had Royal Commissions and we have the experience of practical men; but I make bold to believe that we have not yet had that real devotion of the highest scientific intellect which would enable us to say that all that human endeavour can do has been done. Suppose that we were able to devote to this matter some of the keenest intellects in the kingdom, the minds of men trained to accurate observation, to the consideration of experimental evidence and to the practical application of knowledge, I am so sanguine as to think that great results might follow."

  1405
  It was a question whether the time had not arrived when another Royal Commission should be appointed to take the evidence now available. Since the last Royal Commission great strides had been made in scientific research and by later experience, and it would be well to have some such tribunal to focus the knowledge now scattered and widespread and make it available for practical purposes. In the admirable speech just made by his hon. friend the Member for West Monmouth, in which he showed his great mastery of the subject, he told them that some three inspectors were all that were employed to inspect the work of 85,000 men. Three inspectors for 85,000 men employed in the most hazardous and dangerous calling in the world ! Such a number was simply absurd. He would say that a large number of men should be employed, not the highly-paid inspectors as at present, but another class, one analogous to the engine-room artificers as compared with the engineer officers. There were to-day, thanks to the mining classes of the county councils, hundreds of young men in South Wales qualified to take any posts in colliery administration, and who would be admirably qualified to perform the duties he indicated. He would say that there should be one such inspector for every 2,000 men employed in mines, and then they would have some reason to believe that mines would be properly inspected.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,529, be granted for the said Service."—(Sir Alfred Thomas.)
  MR. RENWICKsaid he quite agreed that a Commission should be appointed to inquire into the Welsh mining disaster. The Home Secretary had said he did not think it necessary because there had been an inquest, but there was great difference between an inquest, when the minds of people were swayed by grief or sentiment, and a scientific inquiry such as had been asked for. As representing a centre of coal mining in the North of England, he felt extremely pleased that the Home Secretary had been able to give such figures as to the decrease in the number of accidents throughout the country. He well remembered the time, thirty or forty
  1406
  years ago, when accidents were much more frequent in the North of England than at present. It was many years since they had had so serious an accident as had lately taken place in South Wales, but he felt sure in such a lamentable event they would have been anxious for such an inquiry as was asked for by the Welsh Members. They all admired the heroism of the coal workers, and especially of those who formed the rescue party, and he thought the men had a great claim on the favourable consideration of the Home Secretary.
  Another question he desire to ask was one with regard to the regulations proposed for dealing with the loading and unloading of ships. Shipowners in vain endeavoured to find out definitely what the regulations were, and as they were laid upon the Table of the House of Commons for forty days while Parliament was not sitting, there was no opportunity of discussing them. Under these regulations shipowners were called upon to provide appliances to safeguard life in connection with ships in dock. He was on board a ship in the docks that day, and it was pointed out to him that the gangway provided under the new regulations was never used by the sailors. Very often accidents were caused by the carelessness of the man. This often happened in mines, and every miner ought to keep watch on his fellows.
  He asked the Home Secretary for information as to the action of magistrates in connection with motor fines; but the Chairman ruled that he could not refer to that subject. He (Mr. Renwick) then asked for information in regard to the working of the new Licensing Act, and the number of licences extinguished. Heasked, further, if any action was being taken in regard to magistrates who were passive resisters and refused to carry out the Education Act. He also referred to an increase of £6,500 in the item of contributions to certified reformatories and asked how it arose, and requested to be informed whether one increase of £1,481 in the item of salaries and allowances to inspectors was due to the increase in the number of women inspectors. He would also like to know whether any progress had been made in the rearrangement of the duties of

  1407
  the Home Office? It was a remarkable state of affairs that the Home Secretary should be both Minister of Justice and factory inspector.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid he hoped the Home Secretary would be able to give some assurance on the question of the increase of inspectors under the Factories Act. Last year there was a promise that something should be done, and two women inspectors had been transferred from the temporary to the permanent staff, but that was not an increase, and it was common knowledge that the need for an increase was very great. With regard to the Wattstown disaster he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give a more decided "reply when he again addressed the Committee. In the case of an explosion of such magnitude as this an independent inquiry should follow as a matter of course. The primary cause of explosions in mines was the accumulation of gas; but, as Professor Galloway stated, such accumulations of gas would be an impossibility under a proper system of ventilation.
  In regard to the statement of the Home Secretary about the Berne Conference, he was sorry to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that the British representatives at the conference had not got a freehand and that they entered into that conference without being fully armed to agree to the decisions of the conference being binding on the Government. The Lon. Member for Stoke said that the only reason for that was to protect British manufacturers from foreign competition, but that he denied. He wished to ask the Home Secretary whether he would cause inquiry to be made into the disturbance in the streets of Manchester two days ago in connection with an unemployed procession. He admitted that if there was obstruction in the streets caused by such a procession, steps should be taken to prevent it, but he denied that it was part of the duty of the police to use force on that occasion, the question of the use of the streets being one for a civil action at law. No such force was necessary for the preservation of order, and he hoped that the Home Secretary would see to it that the rights and liberties of working men to demonstrate—which
  1408
  were already sufficiently restricted—should not be further interfered with.
  MR. BURTsaid he wished to emphasise the necessity for a careful examination of shot-firers, whose duties were very responsible. He thought these men should be allowed to confine themselves to their special functions and not have an addition to their duties of manual labour of other kinds. It was exceedingly desirable that there should be a special inquiry into the lamentable disaster in South Wales. The Home Secretary's statement that he would await the result of the inquest before deciding whether he would take steps to hold another inquiry was very good so far as it went, but in his opinion it did not go far enough. He agreed with the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil that an accident of this sort, involving the loss of 119 lives, was of itself a sufficient reason for a special and larger investigation than usually took place before a coroner. He joined with the hon. Member for East Glamorgan in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to provide a wider inquiry into the question of accidents in mines, and that might to some extent supersede the necessity for that more limited inquiry.
  The hon. Member for West Monmouth had referred to the Royal Commission which reported in 1886. That Commission was appointed in 1879 and he had the honour of being a member of it. There were several scientific men connected with it, and it made a complete and thorough investigation into everything connected with accidents in mines. They made hundreds of experiments, and the Commission demonstrated the enormous importance of coal dust as a factor in connection with mine explosions. In fact, they proved that quantities of gas that could not be detected by any ordinary methods of examination could with an admixture of coal dust become terribly dangerous in a mine. Some of the recommendations of the Commission had been carried out and immense advantage had occurred from its investigations. Even in the face of the accident that had occurred in

  1409
  South Wales he thought they should recognise that a great deal had been done in the way of endeavouring to prevent accidents in mines. Notably in the last ten or fifteen years there had been an enormous diminution in the number of fatalities in mines; that ought to encourage them to make further efforts to try to prevent these accidents and he hoped further steps would be taken in the matter.
  He hoped the Home Secretary had not said his last word on the subject of investigation into the terrible disaster in South Wales; and he would associate himself with the remarks made as to the exceedingly narrow limits of time within which they were bound by the debate. He was sure the Home Secretary must be the first to admit that the debate had been very interesting and had covered a wide series of subjects. Under the circumstances the Home Secretary admitted that he could not say all it was necessary to say in replying to the various speakers who had taken part in the debate. In matters affecting the life, health, and well-being of hundreds of thousands, he might say millions of the population the House of Commons should be given opportunity for full discussion.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid the hon. Gentleman opposite had urged the importance of having the debates on this Vote at ah earlier period of the session in order that fuller opportunity might be given for discussion. He had pointed out before that the matter did not rest with him. He would have been glad to have the Vote taken earlier, hut the time when it was brought on rested more with hon. Members opposite.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: We do not admit that.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he knew that the Prime Minister himself constantly appealed to hon. Gentlemen on the other side to say what business should be taken, and the Government had done their best to carry out their desires. He had no wish to refer to this matter in a controversial spirit.
  1410
  He admitted that an important Vote of this sort ought to be taken at a time when it could be properly discussed. Hon. Members who had been in the House that day would agree with him that the discussion on all sides had been of a practical character, and that it had been carried on in a businesslike spirit with no desire to make Party capital out of it.
  The chief subject which they had discussed was the unfortunate and regrettable mine accident which occurred recently. He had been asked whether he would order an inquiry into that accident. He had stated before that he was perfectly prepared to consider with an open mind whether an inquiry was necessary, but he did not think he could do so until he had received the verdict of the coroner's jury, the report of counsel, whom he had specially appointed to represent him on this occasion, and the reports of the two mines inspectors who also attended the inquest. It had been pointed out that though there was an inquest in the case of a fatal railway accident, the Board of Trade at once sent an inspector to hold an inquiry. In the same way in this case the Home Office sent their inspectors, and they had two inspectors attending the inquest and holding their inquiry practically at the same time. Those inspectors would make a special report to the Home Office. That was the practice which had been followed for many years past, and he knew of no instance in which advantage had been taken by the Home Secretary of Section 45 of the Act of 1887 to hold a special inquiry in England when an inquest had been held; but he would have no hesitation in taking that course, if it appeared to him that the inquest had been unsatisfactory or had failed to elicit the whole of the facts. He recognised that this disaster was of a mire terrible kind than we had had for some time in the mining industry. If, after the reports had been received, it should appear possible to obtain any further information, he should not hesitate to take the step of ordering a special inquiry.
  The hon. Member for West Monmouth had referred to the fact that there had

  1411
  been no general inquiry into the question of explosions in mines. The hon. Gentleman had forgotten that a very strong Commission sat during the years 1891–1894 to inquire into the question of explosions from coal dust in mines, and that on the Report of that Commission the legislation of 1896 was based. The Act which was then passed gave extended powers of making special rules, and prescribed that only certain explosives might be used in fiery mines. That, however, was really a small point, and he did not wish to cavil at the speech which the hon. Member made on this occasion. He regretted from one point of view that he could not comply with the request of the hon. Member to order an inquiry now.
  The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil had referred to a conflict which took place between the police and a procession of unemployed in Manchester two or three days ago, and asked whether he proposed to hold an inquiry into the matter. As he pointed out the other day, he had only a limited power over the police forces other than the Metropolitan Police. The hon. Member stated, perfectly truly, at Question time that the powers which the Secretary of State had over the police arose from the fact that a portion of the cost of their maintenance came out of Imperial funds, and that it was possible by withholding the Home Office certificate of the efficiency of any particular force, to deprive that force of its contribution from the Exchequer. The case of the three defendants were sub judice, and was to be heard next week. Pending the decision of the magistra e he did not propose to take any action. If there was to be an inquiry, it would be, in the first instance, for the Manchester Watch Committee to hold it, and he certainly should not be disposed to interfere with the local authority unless they failed to hold an inquiry, if it was necessary, or unless the result of their inquiry was unsatisfactory. He should not interfere for any other reason. The Manchester Watch Committee quite recently held an inquiry into the
  conduct of some of their constables, and that inquiry was conducted in: the most efficient manner. That was another reason which would prevent him from interfering until it could be shown that the watch committee were not conducting their affairs in the way they should do. He thought the watch committee were perfectly capable of managing their police force, and he further thought that, as far as he had been able to ascertain, the action of the police had been very proper on this occasion.
  Much had been done by the Department in respect of making regulations for dangerous trades. Several sets of such regulations, including a set dealing with the ventilation of flax and linen factories, had been drafted, and published in draft for anyone who wished to make objections or criticisms. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Forest of Dean referred to the staff of inspectors, both male and female. He would point out that last year they added two female inspectors to the staff and with regard to the male and female inspectors alike, the sufficiency of the existing staff was under his consideration. The hon. Member for Clitheroe had called his attention to time cribbing, and had shown hum the drawings of a machine for registering the time worked by the engines. He was not aware how this invention worked, but the officials of his Department were considering whether it would be possible to make any use of it for the purpose of checking the abuse complained of.
  And, it being Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.
  Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £108,529, be granted for the said Service."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188; Noes, 246. (Division List No. 322.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. K.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Bell, Richard

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Benn, John Williams

  Black, Alexander William

  Higham, John Sharp

  Partington, Oswald

  Boland, John

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Burns, John

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Priestly, Arthur

  Burt, Thomas

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Rea, Russell

  Buxton, N.E. (York, NR, Whitby

  Joicey, Sir James

  Reddy, M.

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Crean, Eugene

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rose, Charles Day

  Cromer, William Randal

  Lambert, George

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Crombie, John William

  Lamont, Norman

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Crooks, William

  Langley, Batty

  Seely,Maj.J.E.B.(Isle of Wight)

  Delany, William

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Shackleton, David James

  Derlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sheehy, David

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Edwards, Frank

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Slack, John Bamford

  Elibank, Master of

  Lundon, W.

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Ellice, CaptEC(SAndrw'sBghs.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Emmott, Alfred

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Spencer, Rt. Hn.C.R. (Northant

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifre)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  M'Kean, John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Farrell, James Partick

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Fenwick, Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thompson, Dr.E.C(Monaghan N

  Ffrench, Peter

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Tillett, Louis John

  Field, William

  Moss, Samuel

  Tomkinson, James

  Findlay, Alexander(Lanark NE

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Toulmin, George

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Muldoon, John

  Trevelyon, Charles Philips

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Murnaghan, George

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Murphy, John

  Wallace, Robert

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Nolan, Col.John P. (Galway, N.)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Gilhooly, James

  Norman, Henry

  Weir, James Galoway

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palm, er

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow. W.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hammond, John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Harcourt, Lewis

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo. S.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid).

  Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Dowd, John

  Woodhouse, Sir JT. (Huddersf'd

  Harwood, George

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Young, Samuel

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, James(Roscom, mon, N

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Hayter, Rt. Non. Sir Arthur D

  O'Malley, William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Mara, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Tennant and Mr Richards

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Parrott, William

  NOES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Bigwood, James

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Bill, Charles

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds

  Bingham, Lord

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  1414

  1415

  Bond, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nderry

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Brown, Sir Alex. H (Shropsh.)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Bull, William James

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Butcher, John George

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Percy, Earl

  Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Carlile, William Walter

  Heath, Sir James(Staffords, N. W

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hope, J. F(Sheffield, Brightside

  Purvis, Robert

  Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A. (Worc

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Pym, C. Guy

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Hoult, Joseph

  Randles, John S.

  Chapman, Edward

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rankin, Sir James

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversham

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Renwick, George

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred.

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Keswick, William

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Davies, Sir HoratioD. (Chatham

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead)

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Samuel, SirHarryS. (Limehouse

  Doughty, Sir George

  Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S.

  Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Col. CharlesW. (Evesham

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Dyke. Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Egerton. Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lowe, Francis William

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Faber. Edmund B. (Hants. W.)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Faber, George Denison (York

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Smith, H. C. (Nbrth'mb. Tyneside

  Fellowes, Rt. HnAilwyn Edward

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Ports mouth

  Smith, Rt. Hn. JParker(Lanarks

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Maedona, John Cumming

  Spear, John Ward

  Finch, Rt. HON. George H.

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Finlay, RtHnSir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset)

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stewart, Sir MarkJ. M'Taggart

  Fitzroy. Hon. Edward Algernon

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Stroyan, John

  Forster, Henry William

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (OxfdUniv.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Milvain, Thomas

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Garfit, William

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Tuff, Charles

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Turnour, Viscount

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rHm'lets

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Walrond. Rt, Hon. Sir WilliamH

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Welby, Lt, -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

  Gretton, John

  Myers, William Henry

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  1416

  1417

  Wodehouse, Rt.Hn.E.R.(Bath)

  Wylie, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hoo and Viscount Valentia

  Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart.

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Original Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 190. (Division List No. 323.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lawson, Hn.H.L.W. (Mile End)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh. O.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Arrol, Sir William

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H

  Fellowes, RtHn. Ailwyn Edward

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Hanc'r

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Finch Rt. Hon. George H.

  Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham

  Balcarres, Lord

  Finlay, Rt. Hn. Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ss

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Balfour, RtHnGeraldW. (Leeds)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowe, Francis William

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Forster, Henry William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Bentinek, Lord Henry C.

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Bigwood, James

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Bill, Charles

  Garfit, William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Bingham, Lord

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Bond, Edward

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gordon, Maj. Evans(T'r Hm'lets

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F.

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriess.)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Greene. Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Bull, William James

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Milvan, Thomas

  Butcher, John George

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Campbell, J.H.M. (Dublin Univ.)

  Gretton, John

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Groves, James Grimble

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas p.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'ndery)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cayzer, Charles Sir William

  Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hare, 'Thomas Leigh

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylrner

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A(Worc.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton)

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Chapman, Edward

  Heath, Sir James(Staffords. NW.

  Myers, William Henry

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hill, Henry Stavelev

  Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Peel, Hn. Wm. RobertWellesley

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hoult, Joseph

  Percy, Earl

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversham

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hozier. Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Plummet, Sir Walter R.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hunt, Rowland

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Davies. Sir HoratioD. (Chatham)

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Purvis, Robert

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pym, C. Guy

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Kenyon, HomGeo. T. (Denbigh)

  Randies, John S.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Keswick, William

  Rankin, Sir James

  Doughty, Sir George

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Tuff, Charles

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Turnour, Viscount

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Vincent, Col.Sir C.E.H.(Sheffield

  Renwick, George

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Smith, H.C.(North'mb Tyneside

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas, Thomsn

  Smith, Rt, Hn.J.Parker(Lanarks

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Spear, John Ward

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtouund. Lyne

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Stanley. Hon.Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Stanley, Edward James(Somrset

  Willoughby, de Eresby Lord,

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancst)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Stewart, Sir J. Mark M'Taggart

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn.E.R.(Bath)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Stroyan, John

  Wylie, Alexander

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Samuel, Sir HarryS. (Limehouse

  Talbot, Rt, Hn.J.G. (Oxfd'Univ

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos. Myles

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth

  Saunderson, Rt.Hn.Col.Edw. J

  Thornton, Percy M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Lundon, W.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Flynn, James Christopher

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Atherey-Jones, L.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Kean, John

  Bell, Richard

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Benn, John Williams

  Grant, Corrie

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Black, Alexander William

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Boland, John

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Moss, Samuel

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hammond John

  Muldoon, John

  Burns, John

  Harcourt Lewis

  Murnaghan, George

  Burt, Thomas

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Murphy, John

  Buxton, N.E. (York, NRWhitby

  Harrington, Timothy

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Caldwell, James

  Harwood, George

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N.)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Norman, Henry

  Cawley, Frederick

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hutchinson, Dr. CharlesFredk.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Crombie, John William

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Crooks, William

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Dowd, John

  Delany, William

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, M

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Malley, William

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Mara, James

  Doogan, P. C

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Edwards, Frank

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Parrott, William

  Elibank, Master of

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath. N.

  Partington, Oswald

  Ellice, CaptEC(S. Andrw'sBghs

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Kitson, Sir James

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Evans. Sir Francis H.(Maidstone

  Lamont, Norman

  Priestley, Arthur

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Langley, Batty

  Rea, Russell

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Reddy, M.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Richards, Thomas

  Field, William

  Levy, Maurice

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Findlay, Alexander(Lanark, NE

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  1420

  1421

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  White, Luke, (York, E. R.)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E

  Whitley, J. H. (Halfax)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Williams Osmond (Merioneth)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Thompson, Dr.EC(Monaghan, N

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Tillett, Louis John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Shackleton, David James

  Tomkinson, James

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Toulmin, George

  Woodhouse, Sir JT. (Huddersf'd

  Sheehy, David

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Young, Samuel

  Shipman, Dr.John G.

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Wallace, Robert

  Slack, John Bamford

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Soares and Mr. Layland Barratt.

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  SpencerRt. Hn.C.R. (Northants)

  Weir, James Galloway

  The Chairman then proceeded to put severally the Questions, That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, included Supplementary Estimates, and the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, Army (including Ordnance Factories), and Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

  CLASS I.
  2. Resolved, That a sum, not exceeding £1,528,761, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of Maich, 1906, for Expenditure on the following Services included in Class I. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

  £

  3. Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

  62,400

  4. Houses of Parliament Building (Supplementary)

  3,150

  5. Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

  33,960

  6. Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

  29 000

  7. Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

  40,900

  8. Revenue Buildings

  433,700

  9. Public Buildings, Great Britain

  284,000

  10. Surveys of the United Kingdom

  117,650

  11. Harbours under the Board of Trade

  16,565

  12. Peterhead Harbour.

  22,000

  £

  13. Rates on Government Property

  356,295

  14. Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

  104,509

  15. Railways, Ireland

  24,632

  £1,528,761

  CLASS II.
  3. Resolved, That a sum, not exceeding £1,319,058, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class II. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

  £

  1. House of Lords Offices

  10,051

  2. House of Commons Offices

  20,500

  3. Treasury and Subordinate Offices

  58,595

  5. Foreign Office

  40,103

  6. Colonial Office

  28,920

  7. Privy Council Office

  6,370

  9. Mercantile Marine Services

  69,919

  10. Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

  5

  11. Board of Agriculture and Fisheries

  65,605

  12. Charity Commission

  15,689

  13. Civil Service Commission

  24,905

  14. Exchequer and Audit Department

  40,155

  15. Friendly Societies Registry

  4,680

  16. Local Government Board

  146,954

  17. Lun cy Commission, England

  10,458

  18. Mint, including Coinage

  48

  19. National Debt Office

  7,063

  £

  20. Public Record Office

  14,560

  21. Public Works Loan Commission

  19

  22. Registrar-General's Office, England

  22,895

  23. Stationery and Printing

  413,283

  24. Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, etc., Office

  12,633

  25. Works and Public Buildings Office

  43,395

  26. Secret Service

  25,000

  Scotland.

  28. Fishery Board

  14,786

  29. Lunacy Commission

  3,384

  30. Registrar-General's Office

  2,781

  Ireland.

  32. Household of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland

  2,822

  33. Chief Secretary for Ireland, Offices

  13,950

  34. Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction

  111,692

  35. Charitable Donations and Bequests Office

  1,042

  36. Local Government Board

  39,097

  37. Public Record Office, Ireland

  3,359

  38. Public Works Office

  23,111

  39. Registrar-General's Office

  7,510

  40. Valuation and Boundary Survey

  13,719

  £1,319,058"

  CLASS III.
  4. Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,997,391, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for Expenditure in respect of the following
  Services included in Class III. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

  £

  1. Law Charges

  32,202

  2. Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

  21,516

  3. Supreme Court of Judicature

  181,574

  4. Land Registry

  26,102

  5. County Courts

  6,000

  6. Police, England and Wales

  26,945

  7. Prkons, England and the Colonies

  406,443

  8. Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

  119,799

  9. Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  23,806

  Scotland.

  10. Law Charges and Courts of Law

  51,841

  11. Register House, Edinburgh

  27,481

  12. Crofters'Commission

  2,545

  13. Prisons

  50,750

  Ireland.

  14. Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions

  32,416

  15. Supreme Court of Judicature and other Legal Departments

  58,025

  17. County Court Officers, etc

  65,423

  18. Dublin Metropolitan Police

  37,906

  19. Royal Irish Constabulary

  699,413

  20. Prisons

  68,430

  21. Reformatory and Industrial Schools

  55,281

  22. Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  3,493

  £1,997,391

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 248; Noes, 191. (Division List No 324.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balearres, Lord

  Bentinek, Lord Henry C.

  Amold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Bigwood, James

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour. Rt HnGerald W (Leeds)

  Bill, Charles

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Bingham, Lord

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Groves, James Grimble

  Myers, William Henry

  Bond, Edward

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bull, William James

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Butcher, John George

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Peel, Hn. Wm. RobertWellesley

  Cambell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Heath, Arthur Howard(flanley

  Percy, Earl

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Heath, Sir James(Staffords, NW

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  Piatt-Higgins, Frederick

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Henderson. Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A. (Wore.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Chapman, Edward

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pym, C. Guy

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Randies, John S.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Rankin, Sir James

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hozier, Hon. Janies HenryCecil

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hunt, Rowland

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff}

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Renwick, George

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ridlev, S. Forde

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Keswick, William

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Will.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Davies, Sir HoratioD. (Chatham

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lawson, Hn, H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Dovington. Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  SamuehSir HarryS. (Limehouse

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Dyke. Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, H C(North'mb. Tyneside

  Fellowes, Rt. Hn Ail wyn Edward

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Smith, Rt HnJ. Parker(Lanarks

  Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mane'r

  Lucas. Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Spear, John Ward

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)

  Finlay, Rt HnSirR. B(Inv'rn'ss)

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stewart. Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stroyan, John

  Forster, Henry William

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (OxfdUniv.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Milvain, Thomas

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Gariit, William

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tuff, Charles

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry. South

  Morgan, David J(Walthamstow

  Tumour, Viscount

  Gordon, Maj. Ev-ans-(T'rH'mrts

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH (Sheffied

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir WilliamH

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylrner

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Gretton, John

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  1426

  1427

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander AclandHood, and Viscount Valentia.

  Wilson John (Glasgow)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath)

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, X. E.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Shaughnessy, P J

  Allen Charles P.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Parrott, William

  Ashton Thomas Gair

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Partington, Oswald

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Baker Joseph Allen

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Pease, J A (Saffron Walden)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Higham, John Sharp

  Pirie, Duncan V

  Barry E (Cork, S.)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Bell Richard

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Benn, John Williams

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rea, Russell

  Black, Alexander William

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Reddy, M

  Boland John

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Redmond, John E (Waterford)

  Bright Allan Heywood

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Richards, Thomas

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Joicey, Sir James

  Rickett, J Compton

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Burns, John

  Jones, Lief (Appleby)

  Roberts, John H (Denbighs)

  Burt'Thomas

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Buxton, N. E(York, NR, Whitby

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Caldwell James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Kennedy. P. J. (Westmeath, N.

  Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)

  Causton Richard Knight

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W

  Samuel, S M (Whitechapel)

  Cawley, 'Frederick

  Kilbride, Denis

  Seely, Maj J E B (Isle of Wight)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shackleton, David James

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lambert, George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Langley, Batty

  Sheehy, David

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Law. Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Shipman, Dr John G

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lawson, Sir Wilfred (Cornwall)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Crean Eugene

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Slack, John Bamford

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Crombie John William

  Levy, Maurice

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Crooks, William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Soares, Ernest J

  Delany, William

  Lough, Thomas

  Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Lundon, W.

  Sullivan Donal

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)

  Dobbie Joseph

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Tennant, Harold John

  Doogan, P. C.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Thomas, Sir A (Glamorgan, E)

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Elibank Master of

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  M'Kean, John

  Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n, N

  Emmott, Alfred

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Tillett, Louis John

  Esmonde Sir Thomas

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Tomkinson, James

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Toulmin, George

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Moss, Samuel

  Villiers, Ernest Amhster

  Fenwick, Charles

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wallace, Robert

  Ffrench, Peter

  Muldoon, John

  Walton, Joseph (Bavnsley)

  Field William

  Murnaghan, George

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T

  Findlay. Alexander (Lanark, NE

  Murphy, John

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, X.)

  White, Luke (York, ER)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Norman, Henry

  Whiteley, George (York, W R)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whitley, J H (Halifax)

  Fuller, J- M. F.

  Nussey, Thomas Willan

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Gilhooly James

  O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Brien, P J (Tipperary, N)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsf'd

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S)

  Young, Samuel

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  O'Donnell, T (Kerry, W)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Hammond, John

  O'Dowd, John

  Harcourt, Lewis

  0'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N,)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr Robson, and Sir Joseph Leese.

  Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon. N

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Malley, William

  Harwood, George

  O'Mara, James

  CLASS IV.
  5. Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £7,619,937, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services, included in Class IV. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz:—

  £

  1. Board of Education

  5,652,548

  2. British Museum

  100,501

  3. National Gallery

  9,014

  4. National Portait Gallery

  2,619

  5. Wallace Collection

  3,593

  6. Scientific Investigation, etc., United Kingdom

  29,900

  7. Universities and Colleges, Great Britiin, and Intermediate Education, Wales

  137,300

  £

  8. Public Education, Scotland

  1,047,290

  9. National Gallery, etc. Scotland

  405

  Ireland.

  10. Public Education

  631,721

  11. Endowed Schools Commissioners

  510

  12. National Gallery (including a Supplementary Sum of £1,390)

  1,986

  13. Queen's Colleges

  2,550

  £7,619,937"

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 187. (Division List No. 325.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Gardner, Ernest

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Garfit, William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E,

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South)

  Arrol. Sir Wiliam

  Collings. Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gordon. Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bagot, Capt. Joscsline FitzRoy

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Greene. Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Biiley, James (Walworth)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Sxvile

  Gretton, John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Groves, James Grimble

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Balfour, RtHnGerald W. (Leeds

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Caristch.)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hardy, Laurenee(Kent, Ashford

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixon

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Bentinok, Lord Henry C.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Bigwood, James

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Heath. Sir James(Staff ords, NW

  Bill, Charles

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Bingham, Lord

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir WilliamHart

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Bond, Edward

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Brown, Sir Alex. H (Shropsh.)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffied, Brightside)

  Brymer, Wiiliam Ernest

  Fellowes. Rt Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Bull, William James

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mane'r)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Butcher, John George

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin Univ.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Howard, Jn. (Kent, Faversham)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Finlay, Rt. HnSirR. B(Inv'rn'ss)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Cautiey, Henry Strother

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hunt, Rowland

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Chamberlain. Rt. Hn. J. A(Worc.

  Forster, Henry William

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton)

  Foster. Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Chapman, Edward

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Keswick, William

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Murray Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Myers, William Henry

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Smith, Rt. HnJ. Parker(Lanark

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W (Mile End)

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Spear, John Ward

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Stanley, Hon Arthur(Ormskirk

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Percy, Earl

  Stanley, Edwaid Jas. (Somerset

  Leveson-Gower, Frederiek N. S.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Platt-Higgins, Fiedeiick

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stroyan, John

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxfd Univ

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Purvis, Robert

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Randies, John S.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Rankin, Sir James

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw, M.

  Macdona John Cumming

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Came

  Tuff, Charles

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Tumour, Viscount

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Vincent, Col. SirC. EH(Shemecl

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Renshaw, Sir (harles Bine

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Renwick, George

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Welby, Lt -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Williams, Colonel R (Dorset)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Rollit, Sir Albeit Kaye

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)

  Round, Rt. Hon, James

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Moon Edward Robert Pacy

  Royds, Clement Molyyneux

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Morrell George Herbert

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Morton. Arthur H. Aylmer

  Samuel. Sir HanyS. (Limehouse

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir. Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia

  Mount, William Arthur

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw J

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Crombie, John William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Allen, Charles P.

  Crooks, William

  Grant, Corrie

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Deiany William

  Griffith, Ellis J,

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Dilke, Rt. Hon, Sir Charles

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Hammond, John

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Bell, Richard

  Edwards, Frank

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Benn, John Williams

  Elibank, Master of

  Harrington, Timothy

  Black, Alexander William

  Ellice, Capt. EC(S. Andrw's Bghs

  Harwood, George

  Boland, John

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Emmott, Alfred

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Evans, Sir FrancisH. (Maidstone

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Burt, Thomas

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Hemphill, Rt Hn. Charles H.

  Buxton, X. E. (York, NR, Whitby

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham);

  Caldwell, James

  Fenwick, Charles

  Higham, John Sharp

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Field, William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark. NE

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Joicey, Sir James

  Cogan, Denis J.

  poster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Condon, Thomas Eugene

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Crean, Eugene

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gilhooly, James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  1432

  1433

  Kearley, Hudson, E.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Slack, John Bamford

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan. W

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Spencer, RtHnC. R. (Northants)

  Lambert, George

  O'Dowd, John

  Sullivan, Donal

  Langley, Batty

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Law. Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon. N

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lawson, Sir Wilfred (Cornwall)

  O'Malley, William

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Mara, William

  Thomas. David Alfred (Merthyr

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Parrott, William

  Tuompson, DrEC(Monaghan, N

  Levy, Maurice

  Partington, Oswald

  Tomkinson, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Toulmin, George

  Lough, Thomas

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Lundon, W.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wallace, Robert

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Walton, Jossph (Barns'ey)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Priestley, Arthur

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Rea, Russell

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Reddy, M.

  Weir, James Galloway

  M'Kean, John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Richards, Thomas

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Moss, Samuel

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Muldoon, John

  Roche, John (Gahvay, East)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Murnaghan, George

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Murphy, John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T(Hudd'rsfi'd

  Nolan, Col. JohnP. (Galway, N.)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Young, Samuel

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isleof Wight

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Norman Henry

  Shackleton, David James

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  TELLERS FOB THE NOES—Mr. Lamont, and Mr. Lyell

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sheehy, David.

  O'Brien. Kendal (TipperaryMid

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire

  CLASS V.
  Mr. CROOKS: Mr. Chairman, will you ask those who oppose this Vote to stand up?
  THE CHAIRMAN: No, I could not do that. To do so I must declare the division is frivolously claimed, and I could not say that on this occasion.
  6. Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,032,445, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for Expenditure on the following
  Services included in Class V. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

  £

  1. Diplomatic and Consular Services

  303,847

  2. Colonial Services

  671,703

  3. Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable

  41,645

  4. Cyprus (Grant in Aid)

  1,000

  5. Treasury Chest Fund

  14,250

  £1,032,445"

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 246; Noes, 144. (Division List No. 326.)

  CLASS VI.
  7. Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £497,002, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class VI. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

  £

  1. Superannuation and Retired Allowances

  348,378

  £

  2. Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions

  800

  3. Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances

  572

  4. Hospital and Charities, Ireland

  263

  5. Savings Banks'and Friendly Societies Deficiencies

  146,989

  £497,002"

  Committee divided:—Ayes, 244; Noes, 122. (Division List No. 327.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Bigwood, James

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Bill, Charles

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W(Leeds

  Bingham, Lord

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Bond, Edward

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Bull, William James

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Butcher, John George

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Percy, Earl

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.)

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Carlile, William Walter

  Heath, Sir Jamas (Staffords. NW

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  Piatt-Higgins, Frederick

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A(Worc.)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Purvis Robert

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pym, C. Guy

  Chapman, Edward

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Randles John S.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Rankin Sir James

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Rasch Sir Frederic Caene

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N, R.)

  Reid James (Greenock)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Renshaw Sir Charles Bine

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Jesscl, Captain Herbert Merton

  Renwick George

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Ridley S. Forde

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Keswick, William

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Crossley, Rt. Hon Sir Savile

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dalkeith Earl of

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rolleston Sir John F. L.

  Davenport W Bromley-

  Laurie Lieut. -General

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Davies, bir, Horatio D. (Chatham

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Round, Rt Hon James

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lawson Hn. H. L W. (Mile End)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnE.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

  Rutherford, W. W.(Liverpool)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. (Stopford-

  Douglas Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Legge, Col. Hon Heneage

  Sadler Col.Sir Samuel Alex

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Samuel, Sir HarryS. (Limehouse

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Dyke Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lockwood Lieut. -Co. A. R.

  Seely, Charles (Lincoln)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm)

  Sharpe, William Edward T

  Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Skewes-Cox Sir Thomas

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith Abel H (Hertford East)

  Fellowes, RtHn. Ailwyn Edward

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, H.C.(North'mb. Tyneside

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestfort)

  Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker(Lanarks

  Fielden Edward Brocklehurst

  Lyttelton, Rt Hon. Alfred

  Smith, Hon W. F. D (Strand)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Spear John Ward

  Finlay, RtHnSirR. B. (Inv'rn'ss)

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Majendie, James A. H

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stone, Sir Benjain

  Forster, Henry William

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Stroyan, John

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Maxwell, W. J. H(Dumfriesshire

  Talbot, LordE (Chichester)

  Galloway William Johnson

  Mildmay Francis Bingham

  Talbot Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv,

  Gardner, Ernest

  Milvain, Thomas

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Garfit, William

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Thornton, Perey M.

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederiek

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M. M.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderrv. South

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamst' w

  Tuff, Charles

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Turnour, Viscount

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.EH(Sheffield

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir WilLiamH.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Welby,Lt.-Col.A A E(Taunton

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Murray, Col. Wyndham. (Bath)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Gretton John

  Myers, William Henry

  Whitmore Charles Algernon

  Groves, James Grimble

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hall Edward Marshall

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  1436

  1437

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Wylie, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  NOES

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Healy, Temothy Michael

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Helme Norval Watson

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hemphill Rt. Hon Charles H.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Atherley-Jones, L

  Higham, John Sharp

  Rea, Russell

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Richards Thomas

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Horniman Frederick John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Hutchinson Dr. Charles Fredk,

  Roberts, John Rryn (Eifion)

  Bell, Richard

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Roberts John H. (Denbighs.

  Benn, John Williams

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Black, Alexander William

  Joicey, Sir James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Boland, John

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Rose, Charles Day

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Samuel S M (Whitechapel)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Seely Maj, J. E B (IsleofWight

  Bryce, Rt Hon. James

  Jordan,, Jeremiah

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Kearley, Hudson E,

  Shipman Dr. John G.

  Burt, Thomas

  Kennedy, P J. (Westmeath. N.)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Buxton, N. E (York. NR. Whitby

  Kilbride Denis

  Slack, John Bamford

  Caldwell, James

  Kitson Sir James

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lambert George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Ciwley, Frederick

  Lamont, Norman

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Langley, Batty

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R(Northants

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal W)

  Sullivan Donal

  Cogan, Denis J,

  Law, son, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Crean Eugene

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Tennant, Harold John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leese Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E)

  Crombie John William

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Delany, William

  Levy Maurice

  Thomas, JA. (Glamorgan, Gower

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tomkinson, James

  Dobbie Joseph

  Lough, Thomas

  Toulmin, George

  Edwards, Frank

  Lyell Charles Henry

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Ellice CaptEC(S. Andrw'sBghs

  M'Killop W. (Sligo, North

  Warner, Thomas CourteTiay T.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Mansfield, Horace (Rendall)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Ennnott, Alfred

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Fenwick Charles

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Findlay Alexander(Lanark NE

  Murphy, John

  Whitley, J H. (Halifax)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Col John P (Galway. N

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Foster Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth South)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Fowler, Rt Hon. Sir Henry

  Norman Henry

  Wilson, Henry J, (York, W. R.)

  Fuller, J M F.

  Norton Capt Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Goddard Daniel Ford

  Nussey, Thomas Williams

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary, Mid

  Young, Samuel

  Griffith Ellis J

  O'Brien Patrick (Kilkenny

  Yoxall James Henry

  Guest Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Haldane Rt Hon Richard B.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. George Whiteley and Mr. Wallace.

  Hammond, John

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Parrott, illiam

  Harwood, George

  Partington, Oswald

  Hayter Rt Hon Sir Arthur D

  Paulton, James Mellor

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Allhusen, Augustus HenryEden

  Fellowes, RtHn. Ailwyn Edward

  Loekwood, Lieut-Col. A. R.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J(Man'cr

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S

  Arnold-Forster. Rt. Hn. Hugh

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Arrol, Sir William

  Finlay, Rt. Hn. Sir R. B(Inv'rn'ss

  Lowe, Francis William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Aubrey-Fleteher, Rt. Hon. SirH

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Balfour, RtHon. A. J. (Manch'r.)

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W(Leeds

  Gardner, Ernest

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch)

  Garfit, William

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Banbury, Sir Frederick

  George Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Banner, John S. Harmood

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Maxwell, W. J. H(Dumfriesshire

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Core, Hon. S. F. Ormsby

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Bigwood, James

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim.

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  Bill, Charles

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Bingham, Lord

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Bond, Edward

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Gretton, John

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Mount, William Arthur

  Bull, William James

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Butcher, John George

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nd erry

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin Univ.)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Myers, William Henry

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Hay,

  Hon, Claude George

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Heath. Sir James(StaffordsNW

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A. (Worc.

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Percy, Earl

  Chapman, Edward

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Howard, John(Kent Faversham

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hozier Hon. James HenryCecil

  Purvis, Robert

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pym, C. Guy

  Corbett, T L. (Down, North

  Hunt, Rowland

  Randies, John S.

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Kenyon. Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Keswick, William

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Renwick, George

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir

  John E. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Doughty, Sir George

  Laurie, Lieut-General

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Rolleston Sir John F. L.

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lees, Sir Elliot, (Birkenhead)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S.

  Saokville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  1440

  1441

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Stroyan, John

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. EdW. J.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Talbot, Rt, Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. Bath

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Smith, H. C(North'mb. Tyneside)

  Tuff, Charles

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Smith, RtHnJ Parker(Lanarks

  Tumour, Viscount

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Vincent, Col. SirC. E. H. (Sheffield

  Spear, John Ward

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir WilliamH.

  Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.)

  Welby, Lt -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und.Lyne

  NOES

  Allen, Charles P.

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Priestley, Arthur

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harwood, George

  Rea, Russell

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Hayfcer, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Richards, Thomas

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Bell, Richard

  Higham, John Sharp

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Benn, John Williams

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Black, Alexander William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B(Isle of Wight)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Joicey, Sir James

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Buxton, N. E. (York, NR, 'Whitby

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lambert, George

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lamont, Norman

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Langley, Batty

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower

  Crombie, John William

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Tomkinson, James

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Toulmin, George

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Edwards, Frank

  Levy, Maurice

  Wallace, Robert

  Elibank, Master of

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  EUice, Capt. E C(S. Andrw'sBghs

  Lough, Thomas

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Weir, James Galloway

  Evans, Sir FrancisH. (Maidstone

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Moss, Samuel

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Findlay, Alexander(Lanark, NE

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Parrott, William

  Young, Samuel

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Grant, Corrie

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Stuart Samuel and Mr. Slack.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  CLASS VII.
  8. Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £137,772, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March,
  1442
  1906, for Expenditure in respect of th following Services included in Class VII of the Estimates for Civil Services,viz:—

  £

  1. Temporary Commissions

  12,804

  2. Miscellaneous Expenses

  6,308

  3. Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

  698

  4. Ireland Development Grant

  85,000

  5. Their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess of Wales (Visit to India)

  20,000

  6.Repayment to Civil Contingencies Fund

  12,962

  £137,772"

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 242; Noes, 117. (Division List No. 328.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Doughty, Sir George

  Keswick, William

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Arrol, Sir William

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Atkinson, Rf. Hon. John

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lawson, Hn. H.L.W. (Mile End)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Fellowes, Rt. Hn. AilwynEdw.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Mane'r

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Leveson-Gower. Frederick N. S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Finlay, Rt Hn Sir R. B(Inv'rn'ss

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon

  Lowe, Francis William

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Forster, Henry William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Bantinck, Lord Henry C.

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Bigwood, James

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W

  Bill, Charles

  Garfit, William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Bingham, Lord

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Bond, Edward

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriess.

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Goschen, Hn. George Joachim

  Middlemore John Throgmorton

  Bull, William James

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Butcher, John George

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Carlile, William Walter

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Gretton, John

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'dond'ry)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Chamberlain, RtHn. J A(Worc)

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mount, William Arthur

  Chapman, Edward

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Myers, William Henry

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Coghill Douglas Harry

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Callings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

  Percy, Earl

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hudson, George Bieketsteth

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hunt, Rowland

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Purvis, Robert

  Pym, C. Guy

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Tuff, Charles

  Handles, John S.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

  Tumour, Viscount

  Rankin, Sir James

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Vincent, CoLSir C E H(Sheffleld

  Raseh, Sir Frederic Carne

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Vincenjt, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Ratcliff, R. E.

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford E.)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Smith, H. C (North'mbTyneside

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Smith, RtHnJ. Parker(Lanarks.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Renwick, George

  Spear, John Ward

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

  , Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. 'B. Stuart-

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Stroyan, John

  Wylie, Alexander

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Rutherford, W. W. Liverpool)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. (Stopford-

  Thornton, Percy M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Si Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm, Edw. M.

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Richards, Thomas

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bell, Richard

  Higham, John Sharp

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Benn, John Williams

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Black, Alexander William

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Rose, Charles Day

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Joicey, Sir James

  Seely, HMaj J E B(Isleof Wight

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Buxton, NE. (York, NR, Whitby

  Jones, Lief (Appleby)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Slack, John Bamford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lambert, George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lamont, Norman

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Langley, Batty

  Speneer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants

  Crombie, John William

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) Taylor,

  Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Thomas, David Arthur (Merthyr

  Edwards, Frank

  Levy, Maurice

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower

  Elibank, Master of

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n, N.

  Ellice, CaptEC(SAndrw's Bghs

  Lloyd-George, David

  Tomkinson, James

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Toulmin, George.

  Einmott, Alfred

  Lyell, Charles Hanry

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Evans, Sir FrancisH. (Maidstone

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wallace, Robert

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Moss, Samuel

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Findlay, Alexander(Lanark, NE

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Ga way, N.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Frwler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Norman, Henry

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Norton, Capt. Cecil

  William Whiteley George (York, W. R.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Grant, Corrie

  Parrott, William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Partington, Oswald

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Harwood, George

  Priestley, Arthur

  TELLEES FOR THE NOES—Mr Barran and Mr. Bright

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Rea, Russell

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1905–6.
  9. Resolved, "That a sum, not exceeding £9,399,300, be granted to His Majesty,
  1446
  to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for

  1447
  Expenditure on the following Navy Services, viz.:—

  £

  2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

  2,256,600

  3. Medical Establishments and Services

  277,500

  4. Martial Law, etc

  14,000

  5. Educational Services

  161,900

  6. Scientific Services

  69,300

  7. Royal Naval Reserves

  420,600

  9. Naval Armaments

  2,986,000

  11. Miscellaneous Effective Services

  454,000

  12. Admiralty Office

  336,400

  13. Half-pay, Reserved, and Retired Pay

  800,900

  14. Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances

  1,233,900

  15. Civil Pensions and Gratuities

  388,200

  £9,399,300"

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1905–6.
  10. Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £15,032,100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 3lst day of March, 1906, for Expenditure on the following Army Services, including Army (Ordnance Factories), viz.:—

  £

  2. Medical Establishment, Pay, etc

  482,000

  3. Militia: Pay, Bounty, etc

  817,000

  £

  4. Imperial Yeomanry: Pay and Allowances

  436,000

  5. Volunteer Corps: Pay and Allowances

  1,220,000

  6. Quarterings, Transport, and Remounts

  2,190,000

  8. Ordnance Department Establishments, and General Stores

  838,000

  9. Armaments and Engineer Stores

  2,489,000

  10. Works and Buildings

  2,330,000

  11. Establishments for Military Education

  130,000

  12. Miscellaneous Effective Services

  72,000

  13. War Office and Army Accounts Department

  545,000

  14. Retired Pay, Half Pay, and other Non-Effective Charges for Officers, etc

  1,677,000

  15. Pensions and other Non-Effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Noncommissioned Officers, Men, and others

  1,673,000

  16. Civil Superannuation, Compensation, Compassionate Allowances, and Gratuities

  181,000

  Ordnance Factories

  100

  £15,082,100"

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 233: Noes, 111. (Division List No. 329.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardiner, James Tynte

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A(Wore-

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Chapman, Edward

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bigwood, James

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh 0.

  Bill, Charles

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bingham, Lord

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thomas, H. A.

  Aubrey-Fletcher. R. Hon. Sir H.

  Bond, Edward

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole-

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bull, William James

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North),

  Baloarres, Lord

  Butcher, John George

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Crossley, Rt, Hon. Sir Savile

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. GeraldW (Leeds

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Davies, Sir HoratioD. (Chathanv

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Alters-

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Renwick, George

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Ridley, S. Forde

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas, Thomson

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Fellowes, Rt. Hn. Ailwyn Edw.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S-

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Finch, R, Hon. George H.

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Finlay, RtHn. SirR, B. (Inv'rn'ss

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon Alfred

  Samuel, SirHarryS. (Limehouse

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Macdona John Cumming

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Forster, Henry William

  Maclver, David (Liverpool

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Gardner, Ernest

  Majendie, Jgmes A. H.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Garflt, William

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph.

  Smith, Rt. Hon. J. P. (Lanarks

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Spear, John Ward

  Gordon, Maj. E. (T'r Hamlets)

  Maxwell, W. J. H(Dumfriesshire

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Molesworth Sir Lewis

  Stroyan, John

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morgan, DavidJ(Walthamstow

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ.

  Gretton, John

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morton Arthur H. Aylmer

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Hamilton, Marq of(L'nd'nderry

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tuff, Charles

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Murray, Charles J (Coventry

  Turnour, Viscount

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H(Sheffield

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Myers, William Henry

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Palmer Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords., N. W

  Parkes Ebenezer

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Peel. Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Percy, Earl

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hope, J. F(Sheffield, Brightside

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversham

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward.

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Purvis, Robert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir. Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Randles, John S.

  Keswick, William

  Rankin, Sir James

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  NOES

  Allen, Charles P.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burt, Thomas

  Crombie, John William

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Buxton, N. E(York, NR., Whitby

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Caldwell, James

  Edwards, Frank

  Bell, Richard

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Elibank, Master of

  Black, Alexander William

  Cawley, Frederick

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Emmott, Alfred

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  1450

  1451

  Fenwick, Charles

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Findlay, Alexander (Lanark, NE

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Slack, John Bamford

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Grant, Corrie

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, Gower

  Harwood George

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Thompson, Dr. E C(Monagh'n, N.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tomkinson, James

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Parrott, William

  Toulmin, George

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Partington, Oswald

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Higham, John Sharp

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wallace, Robert

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Priestley, Arthur

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Rea, Russell

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Joicey, Sir James

  Richards, Thomas

  Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Rickett, J Compton

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Kearley, Hudson, E.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Rose, Charles Day

  TELLERS TOR THE NOES—Mr Eugene Wason and Mr Weir

  Lamont, Norman

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Langley, Batty

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1905–6.
  11. Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £12,005,475, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, viz.:—

  £

  1. Customs

  574,600

  2. Inland Revenue

  1,406,000

  £

  3. Post Office

  6,920,538

  4. Post Office Packet Service

  531,790

  5. Post Office Telegraphs

  2,572,547

  £ 12,005,475"

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 104. (Division List No. 330.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Chapman, Edward

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bigwood, James

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bingham, Lord

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bond, Edward

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. SirH.

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bull, William James

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Butcher, John George

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Balcarres, Lord

  Carlile, William Walter

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Davies, Sir Horatio D, (Ch'tham.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W(Leeds

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Chirstch.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. SirJohn E.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Bandies, JohnS.

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Rankin, Sir James

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton'

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Reed, Sir Edw, James (Cardiff),

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Fellowes, RtHn. AilwynEdward

  Lee, Arthur H(Hants, Fareham

  Remnant, James Farquharson,

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Renwick, George

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ridley, S. Forde.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Finlay, Rt. HnSir RB. (Inv'rn'ss.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long, Col. CharlesW. (Evesham

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lowe, Francis William

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Forster, Henry William

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Samuel, SirHarryS. (Limehouse

  Garfit, William

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  McKillop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-

  Martin, Richard Biddulph.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Masssy-Mainwaring, Hn. W- F.

  Smith, HC(North'mbTyneside

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Maxwell, W. J- H. (Dumfriessh.

  Smith, Rt Hn JParker(Lanarks

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Middlemore, John. Throgmorton

  Spsar, John ward

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanley, Hri. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Grsnfsll, William Hsnry

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lanes.)

  Grettoa, John

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Groves, James Grimble

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Stroyan, John

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nd'rry

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf dUniv

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Murray, Charles J. Coventry

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Hay Hon. Claude Gsorge

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Tuff, Charles

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley)

  Myers, William Henry

  Tumour, Viscount

  Heath, Sir Jas. (Staff ords. N. W)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH. (Sheffield

  Helder, Sir Augustus

  O'Neil, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir WilliamH.

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffeld, Brightside

  Peass, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Hoult, Joseph

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Howard, Jonn(Kent, Faversham

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecii

  Percy, Earl

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pilkingron, Colonel Richard

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Piatt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Jameson, Major S. Eustace

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wylie, Alexander

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Keswick, William

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Pym, C. Guy

  NOES

  Allen, Charles P.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Findlay, Alexander(Lanark NE

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Baker, Joseph Allen

  Cheetham John Frederick

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cremer, William Randall

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Bell, Rlchard

  Crombie, John William

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Black Alexander William

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Edwards, Frank

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Elibank, Master of

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Harwood, George

  Buxton, N. E. (YorkNR, Whitby

  Emmott, Alfred

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Caldwell, James

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Fenwick, Charles

  Helme, Norval Watson

  1454

  1455

  Higham, John Sharp

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Spencer, RtHrt CR(Northampa.),

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Parrott, William

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Partington, Oswald

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan. E.)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Jones, David Brynmpr(Swansea

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Thoinas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Jones, Leif (Appleby

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Managh'nN.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Priestley, Arthur

  Toulmin, George

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeatl), N.

  Rea, Russell

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Lambert, George

  Richards, Thomas

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lampnt, Norman

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Langley, Batty

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Robson, William Snowdon

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Leesej Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Levy, Maurice

  Rose, Charles Day

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitecbapel

  Wliittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Lough, Thomas

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Shipman, Dr. JohnG.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Moss, Samuel

  Slack, John Bamford

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Corrie Grant and Mr. Griffiths

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway N.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

  NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1903–4.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1904, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

  (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £272,038 9s. 7d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £174,087 14s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy Services exceeded the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £97,950 15s. 5d.

  (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain grants for Navy Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the sum of £5,310 9s. 8d as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended schedule, while the receipts in aid of other Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts
  1456
  by a total sum of £121,284 10s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended schedule, so that the total actual receipts in aid of the grants for Navy Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £115,974 0s. 6d.

  (c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  255,627

  10

  3

  Total Deficits

  237,604

  5

  2

  Net, Surplus

  £18,023

  5

  1

  And whereas by a Vote of Parliament during the present session (House of Commons Paper, No. 265, of 1905) a further sum of £100 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1903–4, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount of £97,850 15s. 5d.
  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other grants for Navy Services.
  1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  MR. WHITLEYsaid the Resolution in simple words meant that £250,000 had been spent for purposes for which it was never voted, and that another £250,000 had been raised by the Admiralty and had never been spent. He wished to draw attention to one item which unfortunately was growing year by year and to ask one or two Questions, hoping to get a promise that some step would be taken to prevent its further increase. The item referred to the victualling of the Navy. The Committee would no doubt remember that some three years ago a new system of victualling was introduced into the Navy, and the idea was that the sailors were going to be better fed. Nothing of the kind had happened, and they found that the money had gone in what was euphemistically called "savings in lieu of food" in the Estimates. It had gone in cash and not in meat or any kind of food to sailors. They therefore had the curious result that they were asked to transfer the sum of £66,000, in addition to £520,000 originally voted for the purpose. That was a growing evil, and some steps ought to be taken to deal with it. In the current Estimates the evil was even greater than in the year under discussion, for it had grown from £520,000 to £730,000, whereas in 1903–4 £586,000 was paid in lieu of food as compared with a total of £1,250,000 provided for the actual food of the sailor. In the present Estimates there was £730,000 paid in lieu of food compared with a total of £1,000,000 devoted to the actual food of the Navy. That simply meant that the intentions of the House were being made of non-effect. He considered it was quite time some inquiry was held into the system. It was a bad system and ought to be abolished.
  MR HIGHAMsaid the hon. Gentleman had stated that a large amount had been spent on purposes for which it was not voted, but the position was worse than that, because nearly £200,000 had been expended which ought not to have been spent, and the surpluses of £150,000 to put against that were only nominal surpluses, expenditure having simply been postponed till another year. The remarks of the hon. Member for Halifax
  1458
  did not, therefore, meet the merits of the case.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Wood-bridge)said he thought there was some misapprehension in the minds of the hon. Gentlemen who had spoken, because the expenditure on victualling occurred in a manner which did not involve the extra expenditure as it appeared on the Paper. It was not expected that the new scheme would involve such large "savings in lieu of food." Curiously, for the first three months that anticipation was realised; then there was a change, and it became the fashion in the Navy to take money instead of food. Men preferred to take money and buy food. Where the difficulty arose this year was that food had been provided to meet anticipated requirements, and "savings" then had to be found as well as food. The food, however, remained and was used up during the current year. There was no waste, and therefore it was an apparent and not a real extra expenditure.
  MR. WHITLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the further increase of £250,000?
  MR. PRETYMANsaid that £250,000 was not an excess. The increase in "savings" was balanced by a decrease in expenditure on food. Sailors preferred to buy food locally to taking that which was supplied, and he did not think it was wise to interfere too much in such matters. Reforms in that direction were best initiated by the Navy itself. He admitted that on the face of it the criticisms were perfectly justified. It did not seem a sound thing that money should be taken instead of food, but it was a very old custom in the Navy and was greatly followed, and he did not think it would be wise to attempt to force a change. He did not admit that the system was altogether satisfactory, but any change would come better from the Navy itself than from the House.
  MR. BRIGHTsaid he should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could explain the item "irrecoverables."
  MR. PRETYMANsaid he was afraid he could not explain the details. The amount was made up of a very large number of small items, such as petty thefts, and losses of stores which could not be recovered from the individuals responsible for various reasons.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid it seemed rather

  Schedule.

  Number of Vote.

  Navy services, 1903–1904 votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coastguard, and Royal Marines

  43,638

  16

  5

  271

  6

  3

  2

  Victualing and clothing for the Navy

  82,112

  2

  7

  11,180

  16

  11

  3

  Medical Establishments and Services

  3,692

  4

  5

  601

  9

  10

  4

  Martial Law

  1,294

  15

  11

  84

  11

  8

  5

  Educational Services

  4,160

  17

  9

  940

  0

  0

  6

  Scientific Services

  654

  5

  3

  31

  7

  7

  7

  Royal Naval Reserves

  13,384

  3

  1

  3,337

  18

  11

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc

  Sec. 1

  Personnel

  589

  17

  2

  1,192

  15

  1

  Sec. 2

  Material

  17,715

  13

  4

  47,382

  6

  1

  Sec. 3

  Contract work

  8,123

  18

  2

  2,053

  4

  5

  9

  Naval Armaments

  94,281

  12

  4

  46,759

  12

  11

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad

  56,029

  18

  3

  5,770

  8

  6

  11

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  92,483

  17

  9

  5,357

  15

  1

  12

  Admiralty Office

  3,477

  8

  9

  14

  13

  9

  13

  Half Pay, Reserved and Retired pay

  6,612

  11

  0

  704

  0

  0

  14

  Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances

  4,590

  19

  11

  822

  1

  3

  15

  Civil Pensions and Gratuities

  6,818

  18

  4

  90

  11

  7

  Amount written off as irrecoverable

  6,464

  3

  4

  272,038

  9

  7

  174,087

  14

  2

  5,310

  9

  8

  121,284

  10

  2

  Add Excess Vote

  100

  0

  0

  272,038

  9

  7

  174,187

  14

  2

  5,310

  9

  8

  121,284

  10

  2

  Net Deficit, £97,850 15 5

  Net Surplus, £115,974 0 6

  Net Surplus £18,123 5 1

  Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1904, as corrected in accordance with the Third Report of the Committee of Public Accounts of the present session, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—
  (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the
  1460
  curious that there should have been such a miscalculation in losses occurring in small sums.
  MR. PRETYMANsaid the item was not on the Estimates. There was to be an Appropriation Account in any case.
  estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £742,114 16s. Id, as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £1,079,388 0s. 9d, as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual
  expenditure for the whole of the Army Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £337,273 4s. 8d.
  (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £405,336 0s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £309,669 1s. 6d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Army Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £95,666 18s. 8d.
  (c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  1,143,259

  15

  4

  Total Deficits

  901,653

  9

  4

  Net, Surplus

  £241,606

  6

  0

  And whereas the Lor. is Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Army Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriation-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services, and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)
  MAJOR SEELYentered a protest against what he considered an unbusinesslike proceeding. The authority of Parliament over expenditure was neutralised by the practice of diverting money voted for one purpose to the fulfilment of another purpose. In this
  1462
  case there had been such a diversion of £1,000,000. If it were desired to make this the occasion for a long discussion, it would be quite easy to discuss it at considerable length, but on this occasion they did not desire to do so. They regarded this proposal as a serious infraction of the rights of Parliament, which had culminated in the diversion of £1,000,000 from one purpose to another purpose for which it was not originally intended. The result of this practice was that their discussions in Committee of Supply were unreal. He would take the Volunteer Vote as an example. In this matter the War Office had laughed at the House of Commons because they knew that they could spend the money just as they pleased, and not as Parliament pleased. In the case of the Volunteers the estimated actual gross expenditure was £46,865 less, whereas the War Office salaries and miscellaneous charges were £18,000 more. It simply meant that although the House decided that the money should be spent upon the Volunteers, the Secretary for War decided that something else should be done with the money. The right horn Gentleman did this behind the back of Parliament, and they were now being asked to consent to the transfer of this money. It might be again put forward that matters had been complicated by the war, but he hoped the Committee would not be too ready to believe that the war had anything to do with it. He did not propose to discuss this important question at further length, and all he wished to do was to enter a protest against what he considered was a wrong system of. finance. Under the system now adopted by the Government, it did not appear to matter at all whether an estimate of expenditure was right or wrong, because the decision which Parliament arrived at could be deliberately over-ridden by the Secretary of State for War. He understood that it was not possible to move an Amendment, but in order to test the matter, he would move that all the sums mentioned in the Resolution be sanctioned, with the exception of Item 5, amounting to £46,865, the sum for the Volunteers.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that, although he agreed that this was a rather remarkable statement, it would be contrary to precedent to accept the Amendment which had been moved. Although the Amendment could not be moved, the Committee was at liberty to reject the whole system upon which the hon. Member had commented, but it would be out of order to attempt to correct the figures in the account. If the item referred to in the Amendment were struck out, the money would then go into the new Sinking Fund.
  MAJOR SEELYsaid he would content, himself with the. protest he had made. It was quite possible that Amendments had not been permitted in former years, because the statement had, perhaps, not been so remarkable as in this case. He trusted hon. Members would vote against the whole of this Resolution as a protest against a bad system of finance which rendered nugatory the authority of Parliament.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOE WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,said his belief was that there never would be a change in the principle illustrated by the Resolution, because in an Empire so large as ours, and with an expenditure so; vast, no mortal man could foresee with absolute accuracy every item of expenditure that would be incurred. Considering the totals of expenditure the variations were exceedingly small. The items had been affected by the war and its cessation. This system must continue as long as the practice was continued of returning to the Consolidated Fund any money which was not expended.
  MR. FULLERasked for some explanation of the fact that all the money voted for the Volunteers had not been expended on them.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERexplained that this was due to the fact that a I smaller number of Volunteers attended camp than was expected, and to other similar causes. It had nothing to do with the policy of the War Office. There was an item of £13,000 due to the fact that it was not possible during the year to
  1464
  make a commencement with the formation of transport for the Volunteers. Another item of £10,000 was due to the fact that the number of officers under instruction fell considerably short of the estimate. These items indicated no policy, and the whole sum was exceedingly small.
  MR. GUESTsaid the reply of the right hon. Gentleman amounted to the contention that because this was a bad system they must endure it. He had told them that mortal man could not devise a more accurate estimate. It might be true that the War Office was incapable of producing a more accurate estimate, but at any rate that did not apply to the other services. With regard to the Militia, the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor estimated for £183,000 more than was actually spent. He thought that represented a very large miscalculation, and 10 per cent, was a large margin even for the War Office. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would explain that item. There was also another item for works, buildings, and repairs, for which £93,000 too much was asked. He thought the House was entitled to a fuller explanation in regard to the £109,000 than they had received from the hon. Gentleman. He entirely agreed with his hon. friend that this was a bad system of finance. It undermined the authority and control of Parliament and destroyed the value of the criticism which was directed against the Administration.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid there was one satisfactory thing about the Answer of the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman said the whole thing was due to the war. There would be no possible excuse for its recurrence in future. He supposed that the right hon. Gentleman would undertake that in future years this would be a small item when there was no war to account for it. It was quite true that there had been larger differences, but he thought they had only occurred in war time. This was the largest amount that had occurred in this way except in time of war. He thought it was absolutely necessary to protest against such a large misappropriation of money.
  MR. BRIGHTsaid the protests from his side of the House were timely at present. He wanted to know more about the £109,000 under the head of "Balances Irrecoverable." Why should there be such a large amount? If it was a matter of bad debts then the business methods of the War Office must be very bad indeed. When a business was well managed the debts, were small.
  MR. CHARLES ALLENsaid he understood the Secretary of State to say that fewer Volunteer officers had submitted themselves for training. He should, like to know whether that was still going on, and, if so, whether there was any special reason to account for it. Was it because the war was over, or was it due to a feeling of disquietude in the Volunteer force?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT, Cheshire, Macclesfield)said that a very small number of Volunteers went into camp last year, and a very small number of officers presented themselves for training. A very large number of men had been going into ramp this year and all the money that could be found for that purpose would be used. The hon. Members who had asked about the accounts would find the whole of the information they wanted in the schedule to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. It contained the most minute explanations of the item "Balances Irrecoverable." In regard to the Militia accounts he assured hon. Members that it was no part of the policy of the War Department to induce the House of Commons to vote money for the Militia with the idea of using the balances for other services.
  SIR JAMES JOICEYsaid it was a very bad system to give a Department power to apply money to some purpose different from that for which it was voted. If the expenditure on any particular service exceeded the amount voted for it by Parliament, a Supplementary Estimate ought to be presented so that it might be discussed. He hoped the Government would take steps to avoid this bad system in future.
  MR. WHITLEYasked if they could have an assurance that the Treasury were taking a strict view on these matters.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH, Derbyshire, W.)said that the power which the Treasury possessed in this matter had always been exercised with the greatest possible desire to avoid allowing unnecessary liberty to the Departments. The Treasury would maintain the strictest possible supervision over the Departments in order to avoid extra expenditure.
  SIR A. HAYTERsaid that from his experience in the Public Accounts Committee he agreed that the power possessed by the Treasury to supervise these accounts was necessary.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid that the question raised ought to be thoroughly probed by ths House.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 169; Noes,55. (Division List No. 331.)

  AYES

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Balcarres, Lord

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Brodriek, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO.

  Balfour, RtHn. GeraldW. (Leeds

  Bull, William James

  Arrol, Sir William

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Butcher, John George

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. SirH.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bentinek, Lord Henry C.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bingham, Lard

  Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A. (Worc.

  Chapman, Edward

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Heath, Sir James(Staffords. NW

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hill, Henry Staveley

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hope, J. P. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E

  Hoult, Joseph

  Percy, Earl

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole.

  Howard, John (KentFaversham

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. -Edward

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Keswick, William

  Purvis, Robert

  Davies, SirHoratio D Chatham

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Pym, C. Guy.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Rankin, Sir James

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnE.

  Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Lawson, Hn. H. L. W. (Mile End

  Renwick, George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lee, ArthurH. (Hants, Fareham

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Doxford Sir William Theodore

  Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Sadler, Col. Sir Samuel Alex.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Fellowes, Rt. HnAilwyn Edward1

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (BristolS.

  Skewes-Cox, Sir Thomas

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst;

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, H. C(North'mb. Tyneside

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Finlay, Rt Hn Sir R. B(Inv'rn'ss

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stroyan, John

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edw Ard Algernon

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Forster, Henry William

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Foster, PhilipS(Warwick, S. W.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Tuff, Charles

  Gardner, Ernest

  Massey-Mainwaring Hn. W. F.

  Tumour, Viscount

  Garfit, William

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.)

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William H.

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wards, Colonel C. E.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wilby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury,

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Gretton, John

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Wylie, Alexander

  Groves, James Grimble

  Mount, William Arthur

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Murray, Charles J. Coventry

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood, and Viscount Valentia

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'donderry

  Murray, Ccl. Wyndham (Bath)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  NOES

  Allen, Charles P.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Baker, Joseph Allan

  Higham, John Sharp

  Shackleton, David James

  Barran, Rowl nd Hirst

  Joicey, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Black, Alexander William

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Caldwell, Jame

  Jones, William Carnarvonshire

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.

  Thompson, Dr. EC. (Monagh'n, N

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lamont, Norman

  Toulmin, George

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Lawson, Sir Wilfred (Cornwall)

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Weir, James Galloway

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Moss, Samuel

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Harcourt, Lewis

  Richards Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Major Seely and Mr. Guest

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Schedule.

  Number of Vote.

  Army services, 1903–1904 votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, etc., of Army (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments)

  180,560

  0

  0

  32,546

  17

  4

  2

  Medical Establishments: Pay, etc.

  69,254

  2

  7

  28,109

  15

  0

  3

  Militia: Pay, Bounty, etc

  183,430

  8

  4

  1,101

  11

  10

  4

  Imperial Yeomanry: Pay and Allowances

  64,367

  12

  7

  135

  2

  6

  5

  Volunteer Corps: Pav and Allowances

  46,865

  3

  0

  1,465

  13

  5

  6

  Transport and Remounts

  318,972

  19

  3

  152,584

  19

  4

  7

  Provisions. Forage, and other Supplies

  104,383

  9

  4

  189,651

  6

  10

  8

  Clothing Establishments, and Services

  17,647

  7

  10

  78,317

  15

  4

  9

  Warlike and other Stores: Supply and Repair

  380,789

  2

  8

  132,296

  19

  10

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs: Cost, including Staff for Engineer Services

  93,864

  16

  1

  53,918

  17

  3

  11

  Establishments for Military Education

  1,576

  13

  11

  4,715

  19

  5

  12

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  65,778

  16

  4

  31,391

  14

  5

  13

  War Office: Salaries and Miscellaneous charges

  18,848

  0

  10

  273

  7

  3

  14

  Non-effective Charges for Officers, etc

  141,930

  10

  0

  4,031

  4

  7

  15

  Non effective Charges for Men, etc

  17,754

  9

  0

  4,452

  0

  5

  16

  Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassionate Allowances

  5,796

  5

  10

  12

  16

  11

  Balances irrecoverable

  109,682

  19

  3

  742,114

  16

  1

  1,079,388

  0

  9

  405,336

  0

  2

  309,669

  1

  6

  Net Surplus, £337,273 4 8

  Net Deficit, £95,666 18 8

  Net Surplus £241,606 6 0

  Resolutions to be reported this day.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  1. Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, the sum of £1,445 17s. 4d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
  2. Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty
  1470
  for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1906, the sum of £66,495,748 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  Resolutions to be reported this day.
  Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 31st day of July, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at half after One o'clock.