Sitting of 10 April 1905

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—West Cumberland Electric Tramways (Extension of Time) Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

  PRIVATE BILL PETITIONS (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz.:—Worcestershire County Council (Bridges) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
  Acton Sewage Bill; Birmingham Corporation Bill; Brentwood Gas Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Great Berkhampstead Gas Bill. Read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]
  Great Northern Railway Bill (King's consent signified). Bill read the third time, and passed.
  Ilfracombe Harbour and Improvement Bill (King's consent signified). Bill read the third time, and passed.
  London Gas Bill; Nottingham and Retford Railway Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Otley Improvement Bill. Read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]
  Seaham Gas Bill; Sunderland and South Shields Water Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  North Sussex Gas Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Woolwich Borough Council Bill. As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
  Holy Trinity, Portsea, Bill [Lords]; Metropolitan District Railway Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.

PETITIONS.
  LAND VALUES (TAXATION).
  Petition from Pembroke, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC LOCAL VETO (SCOT- LAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour; from Anniesland; Biggar; and Buckie; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petitions against; from Chippenham; Hammersmith; and Poplar; to lie upon the Table.
  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  Petition from Sheffield, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SHIPOWNERS' NEGLIGENCE (REMEDIES) BILL.
  Petition from the Scottish Trade Protection Society, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE MARKS BILL.
  Petition from the Scottish Trade Protection Society, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  POLLING DISTRICTS (CITY OF MANCHESTER).
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Council of the City of Manchester dividing the Parliamentary Borough of Manchester into Polling Districts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (ESTATES COMMISSIONERS).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Estates Commissioners for the period from 1st November, 1903, to 31st December, 1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  COMMISSION OF THE PEACE (IRELAND).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 14th March; Mr. Patrick Aloysius McHugh]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 118.]
  INDUSTRIAL ALCOHOL COMMITEE.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Departmental Committee on Industrial Alcohol [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1887.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 4th. April, 1905, granting to William H. Wood, Engineer-in-Chief's Department, Post Office, a retiring allowance under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  COAL IMPORTS (FRANCE).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 29th March; Sir Thomas Wrightson]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 3338 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  FINANCIAL STATEMENT (1905–6).
  Copy ordered, of "Statement of Revenue and Expenditure as laid before the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when opening the Budget."—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)
  Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 119.]

  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (TRANSFER OF TREASURY POWERS) BILL.
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum explanatory of the Local Authorities (Transfer of Treasury Powers) Bill."— (Mr. Victor Cavendish.)
  Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 102.]

  LOCAL TAXATION (GRANTS IN AID).
  Return ordered, "showing the amounts distributed in respect of the financial year 1904–5 to each county council and parish council in Scotland, under Section 4 (3) of The Agricultural Rates, Congested Districts, and Burgh Land Tax Relief (Scotland) Act, 1896, and Section 2 (1) of The Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1898."—(Mr. Black.)

  EAST INDIA (APPEALS).
  Address for "Return of rules, as last revised, governing the submission of Appeals to the Government of India from the orders of subordinate authorities, and to the Secretary of State in Council from the orders of the Government of India and the Governments of Madras and Bombay."
  "And also of the number of such Appeals submitted for the consideration of the Secretary of State in Council during the six years ending the 31st day of December, 1904, giving the number in each year separately, and showing how many were forwarded to the Secretary of State for orders and how many were withheld in India, and how these statistics compared with the corresponding figures for the six years ending the 31st day of December, 1898."—(Sir Mancherjee Bhownaggree.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Branch Post Offices in London.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLIT: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, in the interests of the public service and with the object of securing the efficient transaction of business, he has decided

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  that in future some one of the rank of officer will be in charge of branch offices in the London postal districts from the time of opening until they close, in view of the importance of the postal and telegraph business undertaken at these offices, and in order to relieve the rank and file from the responsibility now put upon them.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I am dealing with this matter in connection with the question of increasing the number of overseers and of female supervisors in London.

  A.—Aliens not described in the alien lists as en route to other countries.

  1895.

  1896.

  1897.

  1898.

  1899.

  1900.

  1901.

  1902.

  1903.

  1904.

  Hamburg

  9,864

  11,547

  11,128

  12,296

  14,265

  17,467

  13,074

  16,679

  14,734

  19,364

  Bremen

  4,130

  5,180

  4,533

  6,892

  7,412

  7,832

  6,498

  7,702

  9,742

  9,710

  Libau

  628

  1,787

  4,409

  2,013

  3,122

  5,226

  5,743

  6,941

  6,580

  7,656

  Rotterdam

  3,901

  3,077

  2,771

  4,022

  5,939

  8,676

  7,841

  9,922

  12,535

  19,774

  Antwerp

  701

  897

  1,023

  1,114

  1,115

  1,142

  1,324

  1,246

  1,463

  1,496

  Other Ports

  21,198

  23,421

  25,749

  26,747

  32,393

  37,112

  36,130

  39,043

  37,546

  37,708

  Total

  40,422

  45,909

  49,613

  53,084

  64,246

  77,455

  70,610

  81,533

  82,600

  95,708

  Mayo Extra Police Force.
  MR. O'KELLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the police barracks in Mayo to which in 1899

  Alien Immigrants from the Continent.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he will state the number of alien immigrants who have come to the United Kingdom during the last ten years from Hamburg, Bremen, Libau, Rotterdam, Antwerp, and other ports.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The number of aliens who arrived in the United Kingdom from the under-mentioned Continental ports in each of the years from 1895 to 1904 inclusive, was as follows:—
  and 1900 the constables constituting the extra police force were assigned; the stations from which they were transferred as an extra force; and when the extra force was discontinued to what

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  stations the extra constables were allotted, or if they were merged in the ordinary force in the county.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The additional force was distributed over a large number of stations in the county, The men constituting the force were drafted in partly from other counties and partly from the depôt. When the extra force was discontinued the men constituting it were merged in the county establishment on the triennial redistribution of the free quota in 1900.

  Report of Admiralty Committee on Designs.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Committee on Designs, appointed to advise the Board of Admiralty on questions connected with the designs of different types of fighting ships, has reported; whether action is being taken on the Report; and whether the Admiralty adheres to its determination to withhold from Parliament both the Report and the terms of reference.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The Committee has reported and action is being taken on their Report. The determination not to publish the Report and terms of reference was arrived at after careful consideration, and will be adhered to in the interests of the service.

  Admiralty Contracts—Messrs. Holloway and the Fair Wages Clause.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether Messrs. Holloway are carrying out a Government building contract in connection with Admiralty extension works; whether, if so, he will ascertain if the firm in question are duly recognising the Fair Wages Clause in their contract, especially in connection with plumbers' wages, and are paying the rates of wages accepted as current in the district.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. A representation has been received on the subject and is now being investigated.

  Floating Mines in Chinese Waters.
  SIR THOMAS WRIGHTSON: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can say how many floating mines have been recovered from Chinese waters since his last statement to the House; and what, if any, measures are being taken to prevent neutral ships from coming within the zone of danger.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The number of floating mines which have been recovered from Chinese waters since the 15th ultimo is not known, but on March 23rd Sir Claude MacDonald telegraphed that the Japanese Navy were making efforts to remove floating mines from the waters of the Liaotung Peninsula, and that gunboats were daily sweeping for mines near Port Arthur and Newchwang. A notice has been issued to mariners, dated April 7th, warning them of the necessity of still keeping a constant look out for mines, especially in the approaches to any part of the Kwang Tung Peninsula and Newchwang.

  Reports on Navigable Inland Waterways on the Continent.
  MR. J. H. LEWIS: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether any Reports have been asked for, or received from His Majesty's Representatives, on Navigable Inland Waterways in Austria, Hungary, Belgium, France, Germany, and the Netherlands, in continuation of the Reports presented to Parliament in 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) No, Sir, but there is no objection to calling for further Reports if the hon. Member desires it.

  Trinity College Tenants—Report of Vice-Regal Commission.
  MR PATRICK O'BRIEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when he will lay upon the Table the Report of the Vice-Regal Commission on the position of the Trinity College tenants under The Land Purchase (Ireland) Act, 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Commissioners expect shortly to complete the Report.

  Curragh Farm—Reinstatement of Miss Elizabeth Colgan.
  MR. KILBRIDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement to Curragh Farm, Kildare, from Miss Elizabeth Colgan; if so, what action has been taken in the matter; have the Estates Commissioners acquired any untenanted land in Kildare; if so, how much; and whether, in the event of it being found impossible to restore Miss Colgan to Curragh Farm, she will be provided with an equivalent holding.
  (Answered, by Mr. Walter Long.) Yes, Sir; but the evicted holding was purchased by a new tenant eighteen years ago. The Commissioners have not acquired any untenanted land in Kildare, but if they should do so they will consider the application.

  Applications for Reinstatement from Evicted Tenants in South Cork.
  MR. EDWARD BARRY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state how many applications for reinstatement have been received by the Estates Commissioners from evicted tenants in South Cork; how many have been reinstated by the landlords voluntarily and by the Estates Commissioners, respectively, since the passing of the Land Act of 1903; and what financial assistance have those tenants got to enable them to make a new start in life.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) This information is not tabulated by Parliamentary divisions. In the entire county 602 applications have been received from evicted tenants, of whom eight have been reinstated by the landlords. One has been provided by the Commissioners with farm in another county, and assisted with a grant of £100.

  Inquiry into Cases of Evicted Tenants on the White Estate, Bantry.
  MR. GILHOOLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the inspector appointed by the Estates Commissioners to inquire into the cases
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  of evicted tenants on the White Estate, near Bantry, made personal inquiry or through a member of the firm of solicitors who had the carriage of the sale of the estate.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The inspector made personal inquiry in each case.

  Transit of Irish Butter.
  MR. JOYCE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a complaint made by Major Hickman, of Fenloe, Newmarket-on-Fergus, county Clare, that on March 15th and 18th he sent a box of butter on both dates to the President, Royal Artillery Canteen, Woolwich, and the boxes were sent from Limerick by goods train via Waterford, and were not delivered until March 22nd; and whether, seeing the injury that is done to butter so detained, he will communicate with the Irish Department on the subject.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Department is inquiring into the subject of this complaint.

  Irish Education—Rule 127 (b).
  MR. MURPHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the Commissioners of Education in Ireland made any effort to ascertain the opinions of managers and others previous to making the new Rule 127 (b); how such effort was made by them; at how many meetings was the rule discussed; how many Commissioners were present at the discussion; on the motion of which Commissioner was the rule adopted; and whether it was adopted unanimously.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I am about to look into this matter, and would ask the hon. Member to defer the Question until after the Easter recess.

  Swine Fever in Wexford.
  MR. FFRENCH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the County Wexford Committee of Agriculture and Technical Instruction

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  passed a resolution inviting the Department of Agriculture to hold an inquiry regarding the restrictions placed on Dr. Gibbon's farm at Sleedagh with reference to the alleged existence of swine fever on it, and the consequent loss and trouble sustained by him although swine fever did not exist on his farm; and whether he will see that the inquiry called for will be held.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) Restrictions were placed on the farm because of the movement to and from the land of an animal belonging to another person on whose premises swine fever had appeared. The restrictions were necessary and usual, and it is not proposed to hold the inquiry suggested.

  Duchess of Cornwall Seed Potatoes.
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the supply of the Duchess of Cornwall potato, to be utilised by the Irish Agricultural Department, was grown on their experimental farms; and, if not, what price has been paid for the seed, what quantity is required for the limited trials of this variety now intended to be carried out by the Department, and in what counties.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The supply of Duchess of Cornwall potatoes to be utilised for the experiments on the Department's farms was grown last year on one of their farms. The Department cannot say what quantity is actually being tested at each of its farms, but they are satisfied that they have sufficient for their purposes. The experiments are to be carried out at the Albert Agricultural College Farm, Glasnevin, county Dublin; the Munster Institute Farm, Cork; the Agricultural Station, Ballyhaise, county Cavan; the Agricultural Station, Athenry, county Galway; and the Agricultural Station, Clonakilty, county Cork.

  Preservation of Fauna in British Africa.
  SIR HERBERT MAXWELL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken to preserve the fauna in the British
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  African Possessions, as suggested by the International Conference held in 1900.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) Legislation upon the lines of the recommendations of the International Conference of 1900 has been adopted generally by all those Governments which had not already enacted similar regulations; and recently, since receiving a deputation from the Society for the Preservation of the Fauna of the Empire on the subject, I have communicated with the various authorities as to the establishment, where advisable and necessary, of game preserves.

  Profits of Premier Diamond Mine.
  MR. ROSE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Premier Diamond Mine has declared a dividend on its share capital for the half-year amounting to £210,000; and, if so, will he say whether the remaining 60 per cent, of the profits, amounting to £315,000, to which the Transvaal Government is entitled, will be paid at the same time.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) In a telegram recently received the officer administering the Government of the Transvaal states that before division of profits with the Transvaal Government the company are entitled to repayment with interest of the capital expended in the mine. This repayment is £85,000. The Sum of £125,000 will be paid to shareholders as an interim dividend. The Government share is therefore £187,000. Under the Ordinance the Government cannot claim any payment whatever on account of its share in profits, whether in the form of interim dividend or otherwise, till the company's yearly accounts are made up (that is to say, until January 31st, 1906), but the company has consented, in the event of any interim dividend to shareholders, to make an interim payment of the same amount to the Government, and to pay the balance of the Government share out of their next diamond sales, and before any further dividend is paid to shareholders. In connection with the present dividend the Government will receive

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  £125,000 simultaneously with the shareholders, and £62,500 out of the next available cash.

  Military and Naval Service and Civil Pensions.
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that candidates on the roll for the Royal Irish Constabulary are permitted to join the Irish Guards on a three years enlistment, of which two years will be reckoned towards their Constabulary pension in the event of their being subsequently enrolled in the Royal Irish Constabulary, and that men in civil departments of the Imperial Government, who are transferred to the Post Office, can reckon the whole of their service in such departments towards their Post Office pensions, he will explain why a concession of a like nature is not granted to soldiers and sailors who are admitted to established appointments in His Majesty's Civil Service who do not at present receive any superannuation for services performed in the Army or Navy.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) I am not aware that service in the Irish Guards reckons towards the pension of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and I think that the hon. Member must be under a misapprehension on the point. As stated in my reply to the hon. Member for Camberwell North on March 29th†, legislation would be necessary in order to enable military service to reckon for civil pension, and it does not appear to me that such legislation is called for in the circumstances of the present time.

  Bond Investment Companies.
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he will cause inquiries to be made as to the operations of Bond Investment companies and the necessity, if any, which exists for Government supervision of their transactions.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The Board of Trade propose to appoint a small Committee to inquire into the subject
  †See (4) Debates, cxliii.,
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  of Bond Investment companies and to report. 1526.

  Conveyance of Fish from Ullapool to Kyle.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord-Advocate whether he has any information showing how the steamer engaged by the Congested District Boards for the conveyance of fish from Ullapool, Ross-shire, and intervening ports to Kyle, has performed the work which is required by the Board; and will he state at what time the steamer leaves Ullapool and at what hour she is timed to return from Kyle.
  (Answered by Mr. Scott Dickson.) I am informed that the steamer "Dora" has run, with the exception of one breakdown, most satisfactorily. She leaves Ullapool every Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday at 10 o'clock p.m. and arrives at Kyle between 2 and 5 the following morning, according to the heaviness of the traffic at Badachro where she calls. She leaves Kyle for Ullapool about 2 a.m. on Mondays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.

  Convictions for Drunk and Disorderly Conduct in Scotland.
  MR. EUGENE WASON: To ask the Lord-Advocate if he will state the number of persons who were convicted as guilty of drunk and disorderly conduct in Scotland in each of the years ending 31st December, 1901, 1902, 1903, and 1904; how many were convicted in each of the first two years on summons for being drunk and incapable, and during last two years after summons or arrest for the same offence for the same years; how many during the last two years were convicted for being drunk, and not necessarily incapable, whilst having charge of a child; how many persons convicted of drunkenness were ordered to give security for good behaviour: and how many persons obtained protection against husband or wife who was an habitual drunkard.
  (Answered by Mr. Scott Dickson.) Particulars of convictions are not available under the precise headings desired by the hon. Member, but statistics of convictions for drunkenness and similar offences

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  classified under the headings adopted for the Scottish Judicial Statistics are given for the years 1901, 1902, and 1903 in the appended table. Citations and arrests cannot be given separately. Of the offences under the heading "Breach of the peace, etc.," about 90 per cent, are estimated to have been committed under the influence of drink. Drunkenness while in charge of a child was constituted

  Convictions for—

  Habitual drunkenness or drunkenness under Inebriates Acts.

  Breach of the peace, disorderly conduct, and petty assaults.

  Drunkenness and drunk and incapable.

  Drunk or drinking in shebeen.

  Total.

  1901

  68

  48,121

  30,610

  180

  78,979

  1902

  83

  47,273

  29,482

  52

  76,890

  1903

  99

  44,924

  25,131

  27

  70,181

  Relief of Able-Bodied Unemployed in Scotland.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Lord-Advocate whether he proposes to introduce legislation to repeal Section 68 of the Poor Law (Scotland) Amendment Act, 1845, by which able-bodied persons out of employment are expressly debarred from claiming relief from the Poor Law authorities, and to making the law of Scotland conform to that of England in respect to the relief of the able-bodied unemployed.
  (Answered by Mr. Scott Dickson.) The Answer to the hon. Member's Question is in the negative.

  Brechin Parish Council Election.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Lord-Advocate whether his attention has been called to the action at law arising out of certain candidates for the Brechin Parish Council having issued a poll card on the eve of the election, which the learned sheriff who tried the case said had been proved to have prevented one or more electors from recording their vote; and whether he proposes to amend the
  an offence under Section 70 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903; protection against a drunken husband or wife was provided under Section 73 of the same Act, and caution for good behaviour was prescribed by Section 71. The Act only came into operation on the 1st January, 1904; and the Judicial Statistics for 1904 will not, in ordinary course, be available before October next:—
  law of corrupt and illegal practices in respect to the issue of such cards.
  (Answered by Mr. Scott Dickson.) My attention has been called to the proceedings and action referred to. The sheriff found that while there had been carelessness in connection with the issuing of the card in question there was nothing fraudulent, and accordingly he refused the prayer of the petition, but in respect of said carelessness found no expenses due to the respondent. I do not think that such a case necessitates an amendment of the law.

  Registry of Deeds Office, Dublin.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that discontent prevails amongst the staff of the Registry of Deeds, Dublin, owing to the reductions effected by the Treasury in December, 1902, in the number and salaries of the higher posts; and whether, in view of this fact and of the amount of extra work thrown on the Department by the operation of the Irish Land Act of 1903, he will take steps to place the higher posts on the basis which they occupied prior to December, 1902, and to remunerate

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  searchers according to the scale established by the Treasury in 1898.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) This subject has for some time past engaged the attention of the Treasury, and an increase in the number of staff posts has just been sanctioned.

  Latest Report of Commission for the Exhibition of 1851.
  MR. COGHILL: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what is the date of the latest Report issued by the Commissioners for the Exhibition of 1851; when will another Report be issued; if he can state the names of the Commissioners; and what is the amount of the annual income received by them.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The last Report of the Royal Commission for the Exhibition of 1851 was issued on 23rd July, 1889. I understand that the date for the issue of the next Report has not yet been settled. For the names of the members of the Commission, I would refer my hon. friend to the Imperial Calendar (page 406). The amount of the annual income to the31st December, 1903, was £23,081 5s. 4d. These are the latest certified figures.

  Wolverhampton Motor-Car Accident.
  MR. BROOKE ROBINSON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the attention of the Local Government Board has been called to a motor-car accident on Saturday, 1st April, on the Holyhead Road, in the neighbourhood of Wolverhampton; whether the Board are aware that, on the afternoon of that day, the Automobile Club of Wolverhampton proceeded, after the manner of cyclist clubs, for a so-called motor-car run on the road in question, when, owing to the cars that took part in the run, and their proximity to each other, the dust occasioned was such that it was at times impossible to discern other objects in the road, the result being that one of the cars ran into a carrier's cart, killing the horse, and seriously injuring its occupants, the explanation of the motorist by whom the accident was occasioned, and an illustration of the denseness of the dust, being that not only was he, owing to that
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  cause, unable to see the cart, but he was unaware he was on the wrong side of the road; and, if so, whether the Local Government Board will issue an Order requiring the discontinuance of the practice of such motor-car runs.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) I have seen a newspaper account of this accident. I am afraid the suggestion in the Question hardly appears to be a practicable one.

  Accidents at Places of Amusement in London.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state the number of casualties, fatal or other, which occurred during the past year during the performance of acrobatic feats, feats of horsemanship, acrobatic bicycling, lion-taming, and other such exhibitions taking place in licensed places of entertainment in London.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The police have no record of the number of accidents occurring at places of amusement in London, and the information asked for can only be obtained by making inquiry at each such place. These inquiries are, however, being made; and I shall be happy to let the hon. Member know the result. It must be remembered that there are no means of verifying the information given by the management, and that in many cases satisfactory records are probably not kept.

  Belfast Telegraph Department Staff.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will state what is the strength of the male staffs in the telegraph departments at Belfast; how many hold appointments under the Tweedmouth Dual Scheme; and of the dual men how many have been withdrawn from rotating between the postal and telegraph departments and allotted to the latter.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I am obtaining the information for which the hon. Member asks, and will communicate it to him.

  Postal Facilities at Cockshutt and Croseman (Shropshire).
  MR. BRIGHT: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the complaint of the parish council of Cockshutt, in Shropshire, that the postal facilities of Cockshutt and Croseman are worse than they were a few years ago; and whether he will take steps to improve the present facilities.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I have received the application referred to, and inquiry is being made respecting it. There has, it appears, been some difficulty in ascertaining the precise facts in the case, but I will send the hon. Member a reply as soon as the inquiry is completed.

  Payment of Postal Orders—Signatures in Irish.
  MR. JOHN O'DONNELL: To ask the Postmaster-General whether the postal order for which payment had been refused by the postmaster of Ballyhaunis because the payee, Mr. F. Swift, affixed his signature in Irish, has yet been cashed; has any apology been offered to Mr. Swift for the inconvenience to which he has been put; and whether precautions will be taken that in future and under similar circumstances courtesy equal to that extended to foreign residents will be extended to Irish speakers.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The postal order tendered by Mr. Swift at Ballyhaunis Post Office was cashed as soon as the postmaster was satisfied that the signature in Irish was the signature of Mr. Swift. As I explained to the hon. Member on the 3rd instant†, this is the coarse prescribed by the regulations; and if any apology is called for, it is Mr. Swift who should apologise for the unnecessary trouble he gave. The same course will be followed in any similar cases that may occur in the future.

  Admiralty Control of Wireless Telegraph Stations.
  MR. YERBURGH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the importance of wireless
  † See page 146.
  1004
  telegraphy on the coast of the United Kingdom in relation to national defence, any steps are being taken by the Admiralty to secure the control of all wireless telegraphic stations.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) This matter has been, and is, occupying the instant and earnest attention of the Admiralty.

  Premises of Solar Physics Committee at South Kensington.
  MR. COGHILL: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the premises occupied by the Solar Physics Committee at South Kensington are well adapted for their purpose; and whether the First Commissioner of Works could find at Richmond or at Kew a more suitable site for an observatory.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) This is a matter which concerns the Board of Education rather than the Office of Works. It is premature at this time for the First Commissioner to consider the question of a new site, in case such should be thought necessary.

  Non-provided Schools—Appointment of Managers.
  MR. MOON: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will state how many non-provided elementary schools, at the passing of the Education Act, 1902, or within three months thereafter, possessed trust deeds containing provision as to the appointment of managers consistent with the provisions of the Act, and how many of such schools did not possess such trust deeds, and how many did not possess any trust deed at all; and, in the latter cases, whether he can lay upon the Table of the House the various forms of draft Orders, interim or final, issued by the Board to such last-mentioned categories of schools, stating the number of cases in which each form was respectively adopted; and whether with or without modifications.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The Board are now preparing statistics which will enable them to give the information

  1005
  desired, but the work will probably require about two months for completion, and it would be almost impossible to give the information sooner.

  Training of Irish Teachers in Elementary Science.
  MR. P. J. KENNEDY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what steps have the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland taken to carry out the arrangement entered into with the Commissioners of National Education for the purpose of training teachers in elementary science as mentioned in their circular (No. 27) to county councillors bearing date August, 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Department, as stated in the circular referred to, are prepared to approve of provision being made for the training of national school teachers in elementary science under local schemes of technical instruction. The provision of such instruction is not binding upon local technical instruction committees, but facilities are extended by the Department where there is a demand for such instruction, and where the local authority is willing to undertake it as part of their scheme of technical instruction. At the present time provision is made in six urban technical schools for courses of instruction of this character.

  Building of Fishing Boats for the Irish Congested Districts Board.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many fishing boats were built for the Congested Districts Beard in 1904, and how many of them were built in Ireland; and how many boats are in order for the Board this year, and how many are to be built in Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) Seven fishing boats were built for the Board in the year 1904–5, and of these six were built in Ireland. For 1905–6 five have, so far, been ordered, and three of them from Scotland, because they could not be built within the required time in Ireland.

  Poulduff Pier, County Wexford.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when the work at Poulduff Pier, in county Wexford, will be begun by the Department of Agriculture.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Department have asked for tenders, and if a satisfactory tender should be received a contract will be at once entered into, in which case it is hoped that the work will be commenced forthwith.

  Fishermen Resident in Irish Congested Districts.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can give the number of fishermen resident in the congested districts.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Congested Districts Board are unable to supply this information.

  O'Conor Estate, County Mayo.
  MR. O'DOWD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state whether the purchase by the tenants of the O'Conor Estate, situate in Floughena, near Charlestown, county Mayo, has yet received the sanction of the Estates Commissioners; whether, if so, the terms of agreement contain provisions for the reinstatement of the family of the late Thomas Durkan, an evicted tenant; and, if not, will the Commissioners be instructed to make inquiries into this case, with a view of having this orphan family reinstated.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) No proceedings for the sale of this estate have yet been instituted before the Commissioners. An application for reinstatement has been received from Mary Durkan, as representative of Thomas Durkan, and this will be considered in due course.

  Loans to Irish Tenant Farmers.
  MR. GILHOOLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that a tenant farmer in Ireland whose rateable valuation is

  1007
  £7 would be entitled to a loan of £50 under the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, and that several tenant farmers who have recently applied have been refused such, loans, he will say whether such refusals are the result of a Treasury Minute; and whether small holders, who offer personal security in addition to the security of their holdings, will in the future be granted loans for the improvements of their farms.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) Loans to occupiers under Section 31 (2) of the Act referred to are subject to the provisions of the Landed Property Improvement (Ireland) Acts, so far as the Treasury may declare the same to be applicable. The Treasury have amongst others declared Section 18 of the Act 10 Vic., c. 32, applicable to such advances. This section empowers the Commissioners of Public Works with the sanction of the Treasury to make rules and regulations. The regulations now provide that no loan to an occupying tenant will be granted for a less sum than £35, nor will any loan be granted under ordinary conditions for a greater sum than three times the annual value or judicial rent of the holding to be charged. The rule may be relaxed if the applicant's landlord (being an absolute owner) joins in the loan, or where other acceptable collateral security is offered. Personal collateral security is not accepted. I am unable to recommend any variation of the existing limitations.

  Mayo County Council and the Public Bodies Order, 1904.
  DR. AMBROSE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Mayo County Council protesting against the putting into practice of the Public Bodies Order, 1904, as involving unnecessary expense and labour; and whether, seeing that it would necessitate the adoption of a yearly rate book, instead of a triennial one as is in use at present, he will see that the Order is withdrawn.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The resolution of the Mayo County Council does not protest against the Public Bodies Order, but merely requests permission
  1008
  to use the existing rate book. In reply, the Local Government Board stated that if the county council decided to continue to use the present rate book they must accept full responsibility for so doing, as the Board had some doubts as to the legality of adopting rate books with the object of making them available for use for a period of more than a year.

  Incumbrances on the Estate of W. L. Rae, Killorglin, Kerry.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when the incumbrancers on the estate of W. L. Rae, Killorglin, Kerry, will be paid; and what rate of interest, and whether simple or compound, will be added to the principal.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The final schedule of incumbrances has not yet been filed, and it cannot therefore be stated at present when they will be paid off. The rate of interest is determined in each case by the instrument creating the charge.

  Children's Courts in Ireland.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can say in what places in Ireland children's Courts have actually been established for the separate trial of juvenile offenders; and whether any such Courts are at work in Great Britain.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) Dublin, Belfast, and Cork.

  Captain Annesley Knox Estate, near Ballyhaunis.
  MR. JOHN O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether there have been any negotiations between the Congested Districts Board and the trustees on the Captain Annesley Knox Estate, near Ballyhaunis, with reference to the purchase of the grazing ranche known as the Island Farm; if so, whether negotiations are still proceeding; and whether there is any prospect of the Congested Districts Board taking over the place with a view to the enlargement of the small holdings in the vicinity of this farm.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) This estate, which includes the Island Farm, has not been offered for sale to the Congested Districts Board.

  Hon. Mrs. Ker's Estate, County Limerick.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can say whether the untenanted land, the property of the hon. Mrs. Ker, situate at Kilcoleman, Shanagolden, county Limerick, has been sold to the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, whether they intend to parcel it out amongst the evicted tenants, and enlarge the uneconomic holdings in the neighbourhood.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) An application for the sale of this estate has been received, but not yet ruled on. The question of the untenanted land will be considered by the Commissioners when dealing with the estate.

  British Troops Armed with the Revolver.
  SIR THOMAS DEWAR: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state to what extent British troops are armed with the revolver; and whether he proposes to consider the advisability of extending its use.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The revolver is issued to the following:—Cavalry: Warrant officers, staff sergeants, trumpeters, artificers, and drivers. Military mounted police: Non-commissioned officers and men. Engineers: Warrant officers, staff sergeants, trumpeters, non-commissioned officers, shoeing smiths, and drivers, except telegraph and field troop. Infantry: Sergeant pipers and pipers of the Scots Guards and Highland battalions and drivers of regimental transport. Army Service Corps: Mounted warrant officers and others armed with cavalry swords (except those with medical units). It is not proposed to extend the use of the revolver.

  Roads Leading to Jinaal Military Camp.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he has considered the resolution of the Wicklow County Council in
  1010
  reference to the roads leading to the military camp at Jinaal, and whether he has come to any conclusion on the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The matter is still under consideration.

  Government Redistribution Proposals.
  SIR HENRY KIMBER: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can say when he will be able to lay before the House the proposals of the Government for diminishing the anomalies in the present arrangement of electoral areas, as promised in His Majesty's Speech from the Throne; and what will be the method of procedure he proposes to adopt, i.e., whether by Bill, or, in the first instance, by Resolution, with a scheme attached, or otherwise.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The proposals for Redistribution cannot be laid before the House before the Easter recess, but I hope that no long delay will take place after the termination of that period. It is premature to make any statement as regards the precise form in which the proposals in question will be presented.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Royal Naval Reserve—Ullapool Station.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the tenders for the work in connection with the establishment of a Royal Naval Reserve station at Ullapool, Ross-shire, have yet been considered; and can he say when the work is likely to be commenced.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARTHUR LEE, Hampshire, Fareham): The Answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is in the negative. With regard to the latter part, as has already been explained in answer to a Question by the hon. Member for Inverness, on February 28th,† the whole question of Royal Naval Reserve batteries is in process of reconsideration at the Admiralty, and no decision with regard to them has yet been arrived at.
  † See (4) Debates, cxli., 1468.

  Resignation of Officers.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many commissioned officers of the Regular Army, Militia, and Volunteers' respectively, have sent in their papers during the six months ending on the 28th of February, 1905; what were the corresponding numbers in the similar periods in the two previous years; how many resignations of the past six months have been sanctioned; how many have been refused; and how many are still awaiting sanction.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast, W.): As regards the Regular Forces there are two classes of officers concerned,

  Six months ending 28th February, 1903.

  Six months ending 28th February, 1904.

  Six months ending 28th February, 1905.

  Retirements.

  Resignations.

  Retirements.

  Resignations.

  Retirements.

  Resignations.

  Regulars

  170

  152

  129

  136

  140

  134

  Militia

  —

  181

  —

  159

  —

  116

  Volunteers

  —

  662

  —

  465

  —

  463

  Strength of the Volunteer Force under the New Army Scheme.
  MR. McCRAE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state the estimated actual strength of the Volunteer force under the new scheme, with a reduced establishment of 230,000 men.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: In reply to this Question, any estimate could only be given very approximately. It is probable that with an establishment of 230,000 the corresponding strength will eventually be about 200,000.

  Army Officers and Colour Blindness.
  MR. LYELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether inability to distinguish colours is no longer to be a bar to the granting of commissions in His Majesty's Army.
  those who resign and those who retire voluntarily on pension or gratuity. Resignations are always accepted by the War Office unless the officer has committed an offence necessitating removal; none have been refused. Retirements, however, cannot always be accepted forthwith, as some are only permissible on the understanding that the officer joins the Militia or Yeomanry, and a little delay sometimes occurs on the officer's part in securing nomination for such service; there are eight cases awaiting sanction for this reason. As regards the Auxiliary Forces all details in connection with resignations are now carried out by General Officers Commanding in Chief, and the figures only of those sanctioned are available. The figures available are as follows—
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Yes, Sir. In accordance with the recommendations of the medical authorities, it has been decided to return to the former practice under which colour blindness was not regarded as a disqualification for a commission in the Army.

  Army Wastages—War Office Committee of Inquiry—Terms of Reference.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what are the terms of reference to the War Office Committee presided over by Sir William Butler with respect to the South African stores contracts; and will the evidence given before such Committee in due course be laid before Parliament.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The terms of reference were as follows:—(1) To

  1013
  investigate and report on the terms of contract and other circumstances connected with sales and refunds to contractors in South Africa at the end of the war. (2) To make special inquiry into certain transactions. (3) To report upon the responsibility of those concerned. The Committee is a Departmental one and the evidence given before such a Committee is usually treated as confidential. I am not, therefore, at present in a position to state whether an exception to the usual rule can be made in this particular case.

  Militia and the Short-Service Army.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how the consent of the Militia to be included in the short-service Army is to be ascertained.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: This question does not immediately arise. I am not, therefore, prepared to give a precise reply to it, It is not anticipated that there will be any difficulty in ascertaining the views of individual officers or men. In the event of a change being made, those not desiring to accept the new terms of service will continue to serve under the existing engagements until their termination.

  Argyll and Sutherland Regiment.
  MR. AINSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can say when the Argyll and Sutherland Battalion, at present stationed at Longmoor, will be removed to other quarters; and when he expects to be able to transfer them to Scotland.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: This battalion will leave Longmoor for Chatham this autumn at the conclusion of the drill season. It is not possible to say when the battalion will be transferred to Scotland.

  Small Arms Factories Return.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can state when the House may expect to have the Return as to the Small Arras Factories, called for by the right hon. Member for
  1014
  West Birmingham and the hon. Member for East Herts; and whether it will be contrary to Rule 80 of the Ordnance Factory Rules for the employees of the Government factories to discuss the Return in question.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT, Cheshire, Macclesfield): The Return was in the hands of Members on the 5th instant. Rule 80 of the Ordnance Factory Rules only relates to the method of preferring complaints. If the employees of the Government factories have any complaints which arise out of the Return in question, it is open to them to prefer them in the usual manner in accordance with that rule.

  Sparkbrook Factory Discharges.
  MR. JESSE COLLINGS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, looking at the distress which exists at Sparkbrook consequent on the discharges of workmen, he will consider the possibility of giving such additional orders to the factory as may be necessary to prevent any increase of such distress.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The statement that was made in reply to a similar Question put on the 5th instant† concerning Enfield will also apply to Sparkbrook. Every effort will be made to prevent any increase of distress, but it is not possible to give work beyond the money available for payment of wages.

  Shipments of Australian Jam to South Africa.
  *MR. MOSS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state from what port or ports, and on what date or dates, and on what ship or ships, the 1,350,816 tins of jam, referred to in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, were shipped for the South African War; and if he will state whether each tin was deficient to the extent of four ounces in the pound respectively, or whether the four ounces merely represents an average deficiency per tin of the whole quantity.
  † See page 451.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: It is not possible to trace the particulars asked for. The average weight of jam contained in a nominal one pound tin is approximately fourteen ounces.

  Tasmanian Jam Contracts for South Africa.
  *MR. MOSS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any, and if any what, quantity of tins of jam were shipped to South Africa during the war by Messrs. Jones Brothers, of Hobart, Tasmania, and by Messrs. Peacock Brothers, of the same place; and whether these firms or either of them supplied any and what proportion of the 1,350,816 tins referred to in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General as containing twelve ounces only, instead of one pound.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: Jam from Australia was supplied by H. Jones & Co. and W. D. Peacock & Co., of Hobart, Tasmania. It is impossible to say whether any of the jam supplied by these firms formed part of the 1,350,816 tins referred to.

  Enfield Small Arms Factory.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can state whether the authorities at Enfield Small Arms Factory will consider the advisability of employing men in overhauling machinery that has become defective in consequence of the pressure of work which took place during the South African War, with a view to preventing further discharges.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The suggestion which is contained in the hon. and gallant Member's Question has not been, and will not be, lost sight of. But the class of labour required for such repairs is in many cases not the same as that which may have to be dispensed with, and, as I have already explained, it is not possible to provide work in excess of the money available.

  The Earthquake in India—Official Information.
  MR. DISRAELI: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can state the number of
  1016
  casualties caused by the recent earthquakes and landslides in India, and also what steps the Government proposes to take to relieve the suffering caused by these disasters.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAGGREE: I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for India what official information he has received up to date regarding the recent earthquake in India; and if he can state particulars regarding the loss of life and property, giving the names of those who have died or been seriously injured.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK, Surrey, Guild-ford): The names of those who, up to this morning, are reported by the Government of India to have been killed or injured have been communicated to the Press, but it is feared that the list is still incomplete. The mortality among natives is not yet known, but the following casualties among Ghurkha regiments at Dharmsala have been reported:— Killed, 140 (including women, children, and followers); injured 186; missing, 71. I have received the following particulars from the Government of India dated the 9th last:—"In Lahore, twenty-five natives killed and considerable damage done to private and public property. In Amritsar, Golden Temple damaged and some lives lost. At Tarn Taran, nine killed and seven severely injured. At Dalhousie, damage to property but no deaths. Palampur in Kangra District reported totally destroyed, and many hundred lives lost. Very serious damage also reported in Kangra and Jowala Mukhi and other villages in Kangra Valley. Every building, without exception, in Kangra and Bhawan in ruins, including Sessions House and Mission buildings. The Kangra Treasury has collapsed and treasure boxes lying under debris. Of police, only Deputy-Inspector of Police, one sergeant, and one constable uninjured, and three other constables alive, but injured. Of Tahsil Establishment, only office kanungo and two chaprassies, of whom one is uninjured, and alive. Total number estimated to be alive is 500. Many people still alive are imprisoned in ruined houses. Similar state of affairs

  1017
  in most other villages in neighbourhood. At Dharmsala all houses and buildings throughout the entire station, including cantonment and bazaars, have been totally destroyed with enormous loss of life. Relief party with doctors, medicine, food, and tents sent from Lahore on 5th April. A double company of 34th Pioneers also left Mian Mir on 7th April to render assistance at Dharmsala, Palampur, Kangra, and other places in Kangra Valley. Two more companies are being sent, and two or three Pioneer Companies are being sent from Umballa. Military authorities have been asked to hold other forces in readiness to send if necessary. An Assistant District Superintendent of police with 200 constables are being sent to protect property and to take place of constables killed. No further information at present." This morning the Viceroy telegraphs as follows:—"Latest information from Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjab does not add to details already wired. It is clear that towns of Dharmsala, Kangra, and Palampur are virtually destroyed, that loss of life has been very great, and that full measure of catastrophe, owing to difficulty of communication, cannot be ascertained for some time. I have only desisted from proceeding at once to scene of disaster at urgent request of Lieutenant-Governor, who will go there himself." In reply to a question from me as to opening a relief list the Viceroy adds, "I am starting Indian subscription list for sufferers whose losses it will be impossible to meet from other sources, and in a day or two, when fuller information has reached me, I hope to be able to tell you whether we should also appeal to wider circle. I think that this may be necessary. Commissioner further reports that at Dharmsala, owing to splendid work of Ghurkhas and others, nearly all bodies have already been exhumed. Special party been despatched to visit all tea estates round Palampur and similar parties in other directions. Police report from Kulu shows some loss of life there, but no European casualties reported. In Kangra nearly all Government native clerks have perished."

  China and the Tibetan Treaty.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether
  1018
  the Chinese Ambassador has expressed adhesion to the Tibetan treaty; if not, whether any modifications have been suggested; and what portion of Tibet is now occupied by British troops.
  MR. BRODRICK: I have as yet received no report from the Government of India on the negotiations which are proceeding with the Chinese Plenipotentiary on the subject of the adhesion of China to the Tibetan treaty. The only part of Tibet occupied by British troops is Chumbi, where two and a half companies of native infantry are stationed. The British trade agent at Gyangtse has an escort of fifty men.

  Monasteries in the United Kingdom.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that the number of monasteries and convents in the United Kingdom, apart from Ireland, has increased from fifty-two in 1850 to 990 in 1904; and, if so, whether he will reconsider the need for their inspection.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's): There are no official statistics, as I said in my reply to the hon. Member on March 13th.† I am not prepared to take any action with a view to the inspection of monasteries and convents generally.

  Aliens Bill.
  MR. BRIGHT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has yet made any estimate of the probable cost to the Exchequer of the proposed Aliens Bill, and what the cost of administering it will be.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: An estimate is in course of preparation, but it would be premature to make any statement on the subject at present. I will be ready to state the figures during the debate on the Aliens Bill.

  Musical Piracy.
  SIR ANDREW AGNEW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the continued growth of musical piracy; and whether
  † See (4) Debates, cxlii., 1203.

  1019
  he is prepared to give facilities for the introduction of remedial legislation on the subject.
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I do not see my way to introduce a Bill on Musical Copyright this year, and as to special facilities being given for a private Member's Bill—that is a question for the First Lord of the Treasury.
  SIR ANDREW AGNEW: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a leading firm have been obliged to give up publishing because they can get no protection under the present law?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I have seen a statement to that effect in the Press, but I must adhere to my Answer that I cannot attempt legislation myself, unless I can have substantial assurance that the Bill will be considered a non-contentious or agreed Bill.
  *MR. PEEL: If a private Member introduces a Bill will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence with the Prime Minister to get facilities for it?
  *MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: No, Sir. I could not promise my influence to place such a Bill before Government Bills of perhaps greater general importance.

  Precautions against Rabies.
  SIR ANDREW AGNEW: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can announce any modification in the Orders prohibiting the admission of dogs from abroad into the United Kingdom.
  *THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. AILWYN FELLOWES,: If my hon. friend would communicate with me as to the particular modifications which he would suggest should be made in our Orders, I should be glad to consider them. As he is doubtless aware, those Orders do not absolutely prohibit the landing of dogs brought from abroad, but they prescribe certain conditions designed to afford a full measure of security against the reintroduction of rabies into Great Britain.

  Motor-Car Regulations.
  MR. REMNANT: I beg to ask the President of the Local
  1020
  Government Board if his attention has been called to the decision of the Appeal Court, in the case of the Wokingham Magistrates v. the Earl of Craven, in which it was decided that the owner of a motor-car is not compelled to disclose the name of the driver of the car in cases of furious driving; and if he will take steps to prevent the abuse of the roads by those who have no consideration for the public; and, also, if he is aware that Lord Craven was himself driving the car at the time of the offence.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,: I have seen the report in The Times of the hearing of this case in the Divisional Court, but I have no other information on the subject, and I do not know who was driving the motor-car on the occasion referred to in the Question. From the report in The Times, I do not gather that the decision was to the effect stated by my hon. friend. The conviction appears to have been quashed on the ground of its uncertainty, in that it did not sufficiently allege that an offence had been committed by the driver. It might, as I understand, have been upheld if the reference in it to the rule in the regulations had been omitted, and it had been alleged that the driver had offended against Sub-section (1) of Section 1 of the Act. The case does not seem to me to show that the existing law is in itself defective.

  Post Office—Scales of Pay.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General what reason he can urge for reducing the maximum of the scale of sorting clerks and telegraphists in certain towns from 50s. to 48s. per week under his new scheme, in view of the discontent existing in the service and in view of the evidence given before the Bradford Committee.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,: After careful consideration I came to the conclusion that the retention of the class rising to 50s. a week is no longer necessary, the scale rising to 48s. being adequate for most of the offices in that class. I am considering whether the circum stances are such as to warrant some of

  1021
  the offices being transferred to the higher class, with a maximum of 52s. Officers at present on the scale rising to 50s., will, of course, retain the right to that maximum.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Has the noble Lord ever heard of such a thing as the Bradford Report?
  LORD STANLEY: Yes, Sir.

  Dingwall Postal Arrangements.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that letters and newspapers ported in Dingwall on Wednesday night, or early on Thursday morning, are not despatched to Glasgow or Edinburgh by the first train leaving for the South at 7.30 a.m., but are kept until the 9.40 a.m. train, with the result that they are frequently not delivered until Friday morning; and will he consider the expediency of arranging for a despatch from Dingwall by the earlier or both trains.
  LORD STANLEY: Inquiry is being made on the question of instituting a despatch of mails from Dingwall to Glasgow and Edinburgh by the 7.30a.m. train, and I will communicate the result to the hon. Member when the inquiry is completed.

  Copyright in America.
  SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if any concession on the question of copyright has been notified by the Government of the United States of America.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD or TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW,; The Answer is in the negative.

  Dangers of Live Rails.
  SIR GEORGE BARTLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the public danger caused by the laying down of exposed rails charged with high electric currents without due safeguards; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take to prevent the danger of loss of life.
  MR. BONAR LAW: Yes; Sir, the Board of Trade are fully alive to the dangers which may arise from this method of traction unless it is adequately safeguarded. As stated in a reply to a Question put by the hon. Member for the Cleveland Division of Yorkshire on the 7th ultimo,† recommendations as to the steps to be taken to prevent accidents from contact with such rails have been made from time to time to railway companies and have been adopted by them, and the matter is one that receives unremitting consideration from the inspecting officers of the Department in the course of their duties.

  Royal Naval Reserve—Boy Sailors.
  MR. CHARLES MCARTHUR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the fact that 4,326 boy sailors wore enrolled in the Royal Naval Reserve under the scheme of 1898, which expired on March 31st, and to the probability that under the simpler scheme of a capitation grant for each boy carried, as recently proposed by the Admiralty and Board of Trade, the number of such enrolments would be greatly increased, he will say in what way effect is now to be given to the policy of encouraging the training of British boys for the mercantile marine and as a Reserve for the Royal Navy.
  MR. BONAR LAW: I am not in a position to promise that the scheme will be revived in any form, but I fully sympathise with the objects for which it was framed, and I will take an opportunity of discussing the subject generally with my hon. friend the Secretary to the Admiralty.

  London Pupil Teachers and Vaccination—Miss Eames' Case.
  MR. WEIR: I bag to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is now aware that Miss Eames recently gained a London County Council probationary scholarship for training as a pupil teacher at the Girls' Grammar School, Lewisham, and that after she had been at the school three months she was informed by the chairman of the
  † See (4) Debate, cxlii., 573.

  1023
  education committee of the County Council that they would be compelled, under the regulations of the Board of Education, to cancel her scholarship unless she passed a medical examination showing that she had been vaccinated; and, seeing that Miss Eames was not aware that this condition would be imposed at the time she competed for the scholarship, will he consider the expediency of relaxing the rule.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,: The Board have received no application on behalf of Miss Eames, and my knowledge of the case is confined to a newspaper cutting kindly sent to me by the hon. Member. I see no reason for an alteration of the rule in question; it was laid down by the Board after careful consideration.

  Instruction in Swimming in Elementary Schools.
  MR. ERNEST GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether the Board recognise lessons in swimming, given under proper conditions, as part of the minimum time constituting a school attendance for the purpose of Parliamentary grant.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: The Board recognise lessons in swimming, under proper conditions, as part of the minimum time constituting a school attendance for

  England and Wales.

  Scotland.

  Ireland

  1. Elementary Education, total State grant for ordinary day schools

  2. Cost of administration and inspection

  3. Pupils on roll

  4. Average daily attendance

  5. Cost per pupil in average daily attendance

  6. Number of schools

  7. Number of certificated teachers

  8. Average salary of teachers

  9. Total rates and voluntary contributions

  10. Total State grant for Secondary Education

  11. Number of pupils in average attendance

  12. Cost per pupil to State

  13. Total State grants for Universities and Colleges

  14. Total number of pupils

  15. Average cost per student to State

  16. Total grants for all purposes from State

  17. Average per head of population

  the purpose of Parliamentary grant in respect of public elementary schools, but the time devoted to such lessons must not be included in the minimum time devoted to physical training.

  Education Return.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will grant the Return relating to Education, notice of which stands on to-day's Paper.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I have communicated with the other departments concerned and I find that in the case of some of the heads of the Return asked for no information can be given, and in the case of others the only figures available would be of a misleading kind; but in any case the system of education and the methods of awarding Parliamentary grants differ so widely in the different parts of the United Kingdom that any comparative tables would only produce erroneous conclusions. Under the circumstances I am afraid that the Return cannot be granted.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give the amounts actually voted by Parliament for the three grades of education?
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I have nothing to add to my Answer.
  The Return referred to was follows:—

  Buckingham Palace—New Roadway.
  COLONEL LUCAS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if the new road leading from the front of Buckingham Palace to Piccadilly is to be used for vehicular traffic.
  LORD BALCARRES: The Answer is in the negative.
  COLONEL LUCAS: I hope the noble Lord will adhere to that decision.

  Medical Attendance in the House.
  SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSON: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether there is within the precincts of the House any medicine chest for use in the case of accident or sudden illness; if so, where is it kept; who is responsible for its custody and the replenishment of the stores; and when these stores were last inspected.
  LORD BALCARRES: This is not a matter in which the First Commissioner has any jurisdiction. It appears to be one for the authorities of the House.
  SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSON: But is there not a medicine chest somewhere in the House?
  LORD BALCARRES: Yes, one is kept in the department of the police.
  DR. HUTCHINSON: Who has charge of it?
  LORD BALCARRES: The key is kept by the constable on duty in the room, and he has instructions to allow nobody to open the chest except a duly authorised medical man.

  Protection of Scottish Line Fishermen's Interests.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord-Advocate whether, with a view to the purchase of an additional Fishery Board cruiser for the protection of the interests of the line fishermen, the Secretary for Scotland is saving moneys out of funds placed at his disposal for fishery purposes; and, if so, will he state what amount has accumulated.
  *THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,: Money is being saved which may be available for the purpose of the purchase of another cruiser. The amount so accumulated at present stands at over £7,000.

  Return Relating to Government Officials in Ireland.
  MR. WILLIAM MOORE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury by what methods it is intended to ascertain the place of education of each salaried official in the various Government Departments in Ireland; if it is open to every such official to decline to furnish such information as being solely personal to himself; and, if not, to what penalty will he be liable in the event of his refusal.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALTER LONG,: Perhaps I may be permitted to reply to this Question. In all cases where this information has not already been furnished to the Department on the occasion of the appointment, promotion, or transfer of an official, the only method which the Government could be expected to resort to, to obtain it, would be to ask the official to supply it. I am advised that the Government have no legal right to make such a demand, and that if they made it the official applied to would have every right to decline to accede to the demand. It was in consequence of these reasons that I declined to assent to the Return in the first instance.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: May I ask whether, as the House of Commons has ordered this Return, the Government will take steps to have the order enforced?
  MR. WALTER LONG: I can only say I have taken the legal advice at my disposal, and the Answer I have given is the result of that advice. I have no power to obtain the information, nor has the head of the Department.
  MR. SLOAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say for what reason he withdrew his objection to the Return?
  MR. WALTER LONG: I never did withdraw my objection to the Return. The Motion came on unexpectedly at five minutes to twelve o'clock, when neither I nor the law officers were in the House. In consequence, the Return was ordered by the House. A Motion had been put on the Paper by the Secretary to the Treasury for the rejection of the Return, but it did not seem possible to secure an opportunity for the debate. Therefore, I undertook that, so far as I was able to do so, the information should be provided.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to suppose that these officials are ashamed to give this information?
  MR. WALTER LONG: I have not the slightest reason to suppose anything of the kind. I assume they are entitled to their rights and privileges as much as anybody else.
  MR. MACVEAGHMay I ask the Chief Secretary whether any officer refusing to supply this information will do so at his own risk?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Notice must given of any further Question.

  Lamphier Estate, County Tipperary.
  MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that in connection with the sale of the Lamphier Estate, at Forlacummin Slievar-dagh, county Tipperary, the evicted tenants, Messrs. Feehan and M'Cormac, in making application for their reinstatement acted in good faith, as they had never assigned their interests in their farms to any person, and that the fact of giving the supposed expenses of the sheriff in the contemplated eviction has been utilised by the owner as a reason for giving over the tenancies to another man for the sum of £230; and will he see that the Estates Commissioners take steps to reinstate these evicted tenants.
  MR. WALTER, LONG: I beg to refer the hon. Member to my reply of 23rd March†. These persons are not evicted
  † See (4) Debates, cxliii., 969.
  1028
  tenants, and have no claim to reinstatement.

  Phibbs Estate, County Sligo.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland can he now state whether the purchase arrangements of the Phibbs Estate of Heathfield, situate near Cullooney, county Sligo, have yet been sanctioned by the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, will he say whether these arrangements include the enlargement of uneconomic holdings by the addition of a portion of the waste land on the estate from which the tenants or their predecessors were evicted.
  MR. WALTER LONG: No, Sir. Until the inspector's final report has been received, the informal ion desired in the second part of the Question cannot be given.

  Window Smashing at Templemore, County Tipperary.
  MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that the extra police were withdrawn from Barnane, near Templemore, county Tipperary, in face of the allegation that about six weeks ago a window was smashed in daylight in the house of George Thompson, for whose protection those extra constabulary-men had been brought there; is he aware that George Thompson goes in day after day to Templemore doing his business unaccompanied by police; and under the circumstances will he direct that an open investigation be held in regard to the breaking of Mr. Thompson's window.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The extra police were withdrawn in August, 1903, and will be returned to the district should the local responsible authorities consider such a step necessary. The police are pursuing their inquiries, and the reply to the concluding inquiry is in the negative.

  Congested Districts Board Purchases in County Kerry.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant

  1029
  of Ireland whether representations have been made to the Congested Districts Board by all the representative persons in the district where the Cragg and Adcrone farms purchased by the Board are situated, to the effect that it will lead to discontent and trouble if any attempt is made to import new tenants into these farms while the evicted tenants are on the spot and desirous of being reinstated; and if he can make any arrangement by which the Board can give back these farms to Mrs. Esther Cronin and Mr. John M. Lyne, the persons evicted from them.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I am not aware whether such representations have been received, but, in any event, they would not affect the decision which has been arrived at. The Board purchased these farms for the purpose of migration; and it would be against public policy to reinstate the ex-tenants, who are defaulting annuitants.

  Reinstatement of County Kerry Evicted Tenants.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is the intention of the Estates Commissioners to take any steps in reference to the reinstatement of evicted tenants in county Kerry until such time as the entire estates from which they were evicted come before them for sale; whether he is aware that such procedure will entail in many cases years of delay to the evicted tenants; and whether, under these circumstances, he will give directions to the Estates Commissioners to open negotiations with the landlords and others for the reinstatement of evicted tenants, and report the result of such negotiations in due course.
  MR. WALTER LONG: Under Section 2 of the Act of 1903, the restoration of evicted tenants is ancillary to the sale of an estate and an incident in its disposal. The practice regulating the reinstatement of such tenants was explained in the recent debates on the subject; and in the regulations which it is intended to lay on the Table the matter will be further dealt with.

  Mr. Hughes' Estate in Queen's County.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the estate of Mr. Theodore Augustin Hughes, situate in the Queen's County, has been sold to the tenants under the provisions of the Land Act of 1903; that there were upon the estate two sub-tenants named Mary Whelan and Johanna Higgins who had the status of judicial tenants and had had judicial rents fixed, who claimed to be entitled to purchase their farms under the 15th Section of the Land Purchase Act of 1903; and that the result of the negotiations upon the question was that the estate was sold, leaving these two judicial subtenants still in the occupation of tenancies on the estate; and, if so, will he say what power, if any, the Estates Commissioners enjoyed to sell the tenancies held by these sub-tenants to another tenant on the estate, and vest the same in such other tenant, as that is what, in effect, has been done or sanctioned by the Estates Commissioners.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The persons named are sub-tenants on the holding of Thomas Warpole. By direction of the Commissioners, the vendor offered to sell to these sub-tenants the land occupied by them. The offers were refused, and the entire holding has been vested in Walpole.

  Irish School House Plans.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the revised estimates and plans for new school houses in Ireland are yet in the hands of the Commissioners of National Education; and, if so, when will the approved plans be carried into practical operation.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,: I regret that I have nothing to add at present to the various replies I have already given to Questions on this subject.

  Major Mahony's Estate, County Kerry.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any negotiations for the purchase of the estate of Major Mahony, near Caragh, county Kerry, have been instituted by the Congested Districts Board or the Estates Commissioners; and can he state whether the application of Daniel Clifford, an evicted tenant on the estate, has been considered.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The Board are considering the question of making an offer for this estate. The Commissioners have received an application from Mr. Clifford, which they will consider if the estate should come before them.

  Rev. R. Barmingham's Estate, County Roscommon.
  MR. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any negotiations are taking place between the Estates Commissioners and the Rev. R. Barmingham as to the estate of the latter in Roscommon; if so, how far these negotiations have proceeded; and whether, in view of the fact that there is a quantity of untenanted land on the estate, the proceedings for its acquisition will be expedited as much as possible.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The Commissioners understand that an originating request for the sale of this estate is about to be lodged with them.

  French Estate, County Roscommon.
  MR. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any negotiations are in progress between the Estates Commissioners or the Congested Districts Board and the owner of the French Estate, Clooneyquin, in the county Roscommon; if so, how the matter now stands; and whether, as this estate contains a quantity of untenanted land and adjoins a number of uneconomic holdings, the purchase proceedings will be pushed forward without delay.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The Congested Districts Board are negotiating for the purchase of this estate.

  Kilmeedy Schools.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state what reply did the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland give on December 8th, 1903, to the application of the manager of the Kilmeedy, county Limerick, Schools, for a grant-in-aid to build new schools there.
  MR. WALTER LONG: There is no record of a reply dated December 8th, 1803. I have sent to the hon. Member a copy of the Commissioners' reply of the 9th of that month.

  Royal Irish Constabulary—Names in Irish on Carts.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary has directed the members of the force not to prosecute cases of persons who have inscribed their names in the Gaelic language on their business vehicles; and, if so, what are the reasons for giving certain persons exemption from compliance with the law.
  MR. WALTER LONG: My hon. friend has not been correctly informed. No exemption has been granted, but the Inspector-General has directed that cases of the kind shall be reported to headquarters for instructions before instituting a prosecution. I understand that a case is pending for the opinion of the Superior Courts as to the legality of the practice.

  New Education Rule 127 (b).
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland have yet been able to ascertain what will be the probable effects of Rule 127 (b) if an attempt is made to enforce it.
  MR. WALTER LONG: As I have already stated, I intend to investigate this matter during the Easter recess, and would therefore ask the hon. Member to defer the Question for the present.

  Gurteenrainee Farm, County Tipperary.
  MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Admiral Poe has offered to sell the evicted farm of the late Kyran M'Donnell, situated at Gurteenrainee, barony of Slievardagh, county Tipperary, to the present occupier, through the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, will he state under what tenure the party in possession at present holds the farm; how the tenancy was created after Mr. M'Donnell's eviction; and whether the son of the evicted tenant, Philip M'Donnell, has lodged his claim for reinstatement with the Estates Commissioners.
  MR. WALTER LONG: Philip M'Donnell's application has been received by the Commissioners, but the estate has not come before them, and they have no information as to the tenancy of the evicted holding.

  Malicious Damage Claims at Limerick.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that upon the hearing of two claims by farmers for compensation for malicious destruction of hay, at Limerick Quarter Sessions last week, Head Constable Doherty expressed the opinion that the hay was burned on behalf of the applicant, whereas County Court Judge Adams rejected that opinion, which he said was unsupported by any tittle of evidence and awarded the claimant compensation; and whether, with the view of preserving the independence of the Constabulary, he will direct a full inquiry to be made into the circumstances under which the police officer made these unfounded allegations.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The Head Constable only expressed the opinion complained of after he had been pressed to do so by the Judge. The police are instructed, when giving evidence in such cases, to claim privilege if their answer would interfere with the administration of justice. I am advised that the Head Constable would have been justified in claiming privilege in this case and declining to make a grave criminal charge on
  1034
  suspicion. I am making further inquiry into the matter.

  The Estates Commissioners—Instructions to Inspectors.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will lay upon the Table the instructions issued by the Estates Commissioners for the guidance of their inspectors, dated February, 1904.
  MR. WALTER LONG: No, Sir, I do not propose to lay these instructions, which were informal, on the Table.
  MR. DILLON: Then are we not to be allowed to see these instructions at all?
  MR. JOHN MORLEYasked whether it was not the intention that all these regulations should be brought under the cognisance of the House.
  MR. WALTER LONGsaid he had no desire to do other than carry out the pledges of his predecessor.
  MR. DILLON: I shall certainly press for the publication of these regulations.

  Belfast Mail Service.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the comparatively small cost of sending a supplementary mail bag from Belfast via Greenore to London and the expressed desire of the railway companies to give facilities for such a service, he will make further inquiries into the matter with the view of complying with this demand.
  LORD STANLEY: As I have already informed the hon. Member, I am endeavouring to arrange for an improvement of the present mail service from Belfast to England by way of Larne, and I do not consider it worth while to take up the question of using the Greenore route unless an acceleration of the Larne service proves to be impracticable.

  Armagh Post Office—Catholic Clerk's Grievance.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a Catholic

  1035
  member of the female staff at Armagh Post Office requested one hour's leave of absence during the morning of last St. Patrick's Day in order to attend her place of worship and was refused it by the postmaster, although all the available staff were at work and a capable substitute was willing to act for her; and whether, seeing no facilities are afforded the Catholic officers in Armagh for attending divine service on holidays, he will take steps to prevent a recurrence of this state of things.
  LORD STANLEY: I am informed that a member of the female staff at Armagh Post Office asked for two hours leave of absence on the 17th of March (St. Patrick's Day) at a time when a good deal of extra work was expected at the office. She did not say for what purpose the leave was required, nor did she offer to provide a substitute; and she was informed by the postmaster that she could not be spared.

  Aghalee Postal Arrangements.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, owing to the postal arrangements in the rural district of Aghalee, county Antrim, the daily Newspaper cannot be had until the day after publication; and that the only delivery from the post offices of Aghalee, Aghagallon, and Lower Ballinderry, county Antrim, Ireland, takes place at 6 a.m.; and, if so, will he undertake that better postal facilities be provided for the people of that district.
  LORD STANLEY: It is the fact that' newspapers published in Dublin or Belfast cannot be delivered by post the same day at the places mentioned. I regret, however, that no improvement is practicable as the cost of the present service is so high as to preclude me from incurring additional expenditure for a second post in the day. The present delivery, as the hon. Member states, begins at 6 a.m., and it would be necessary to postpone it for at least five hours if the newspapers in question had to be included.

  Killarney—Rail and Hotel Tickets.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade
  1036
  whether it is permissible for the Great Southern and Western Railway Company of Ireland to issue combined rail and hotel tickets to Killarney to one hotel under private management at preferential rates, having regard to the sums paid to this railway company by the ratepayers of the county Kerry in baronial guarantees.
  MR. BONAR LAW: The hon. Member asks a difficult legal Question upon which. I am not in a position to express an opinion.

  Treatment of Native Races.
  MR. JAMES O'KELLY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the recent allegations with reference to the ill-treatment of native races in Australia, in India, in Nigeria, in South Africa, as well as in the Philippines, and in French, German, Congo State, Portuguese territories, and elsewhere, His Majesty's Government will take steps to secure the appointment of an International Commission to inquire into all these matters, and to bring forward recommendations to alleviate the condition of the native races generally.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: In answer to the hon. Gentleman I have to say I do not think anything would be gained by entering into diplomatic negotiations with other Powers for the purpose of assembling a Conference on this subject.

  Scotch Education Bill.
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury on what day the Second Reading of the Scotch Education Bill will be taken.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope to be able to read the Bill a second time next week, possibly on Tuesday, but I cannot say definitely.

  Scottish Peers and the Franchise
  MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the fact that there are only thirty-two Scottish Peers who are not

  1037
  hereditary Peers of Parliament, sixteen of whom are representative Peers, while the remaining sixteen are debarred from entering either House, are without the franchise, and are not permitted to participate in a Parliamentary election, he will, under any Redistribution scheme, consider the desirability of removing these disabilities by placing Scottish Peers on the same footing as Irish Peers, and thus conferring on certain persons in Scotland the political privileges enjoyed by the people at large.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURwas understood to say that a question relating to the status of Scottish Peers could hardly be dealt with in a Bill in the manner suggested by the hon. Member.

  Management of Queen Anne's Bounty and the Ecclesiastical Commission.
  SIR JOHN GORST: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether any of the beneficed parochial clergy are at the present time Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty, or take any part in its management or in that of the Ecclesiastical Commission; and, if not, whether it would be possible to alter or remedy this as to either body without an Act of Parliament.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am informed that in order to alter the constitution of Queen Anne's Bounty it would be necessary either to have legislation or to have a new charter, and that with regard to the Ecclesiastical Commission legislation is absolutely necessary. In these circumstances I think any reform of these two bodies ought to be undertaken together by legislation. My right hon. friend will be aware that there was a Joint Committee of the two Houses to look into the constitution of these two bodies and that the Committee recommended their amalgamation.

  Scottish Church Dispute.
  MR. FINDLAY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the situation created in various parts of Scotland by the actions of the Legal Free Church, who have practically ignored the fact that a Royal Commisson is reporting, he will introduce a short Bill to maintain
  1038
  the status quo until the Report of the Royal Commission has been received and a decision come to by this House in regard to the whole matters at issues.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have already more than once expressed my views upon this subject, and I have informed the House how much I regret the action which has been taken in certain cases with reference to the first of the two Commissions appointed by His Majesty's Government. I do not think, however, the course suggested by the hon. Gentleman of having interim legislation is at all practicable. All we can do is to do our best to bring forward such legislative project as soon as we have before us the Report of the Elgin Commission, which Report, I trust, will not be long delayed.

  Foreign Trawlers Regulation Bill.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to resolutions by the Convention of Royal Burghs in Scotland, and by many meetings of fishermen at Buckie and elsewhere on the coast, condemning the fishing, by trawlers registered in foreign ports within forbidden waters; and whether the Government will take steps, by affording facilities for the Foreign Trawlers Regulation Bill or otherwise, for remedying the alleged grievance.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The question is one of very great difficulty, raising questions of domestic importance as well as of policy in connection with our relations with foreign Powers, and I do not think in the present state of public business I can promise the hon. Member what he asks for.

  Scottish Church Dispute.
  MR. WALLACE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of notices to give up possession of their manses on May 28th being served on ministers of the United Free Church of Scotland, the Government will take immediate action on the Elgin Report, and, if necessary, will introduce, a suspensory Bill.
  MR. BUCHANAN: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers, may I inquire whether the Government has recently received the Elgin Report and whether, if it is not so, the House may take it that, at the earliest moment after it has been received, the Government will legislate on the subject.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: We have not received the Elgin Report. I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman what he means by "the earliest possible moment." I presume the Elgin Report will not only deserve, but require, consideration, and until we have given it that consideration legislation would be premature.
  MR. BUCHANAN: May I ask whether, if there is to be a delay in carrying out the recommendations of the Elgin Commission, the right hon. Gentleman will consider the propriety of passing suspensory legislation, especially in view of the recent action taken in regard to the eviction from manses in Scotland.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The supplementary Question of the hon. Gentleman is of a hypothetical character, and the particular hypothesis on which he goes is that we shall not be able to introduce legislation based on the recommendations of the Elgin Commission. I should hope that that will not be the case; but if it is the case I shall be glad to consider any alternative course which may be open to us under those circumstances.

  Army Recruiting.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Defence Committee approve of a double system of recruiting necessitated by foreign-service and short-service Armies; and will he allow the House, without the intervention of the Government Whips, to express its opinion of the scheme.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is a question which would not come before the Defence Committee at all: it is entirely in the Departmental province of the Secretary of State for War.
  MR. LAMBERT: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman reply to the second part of my Question.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that any question dealing with the Army and Navy is not to be under the direction of the Government? Because I cannot assent to that.

  London Rates.
  MR. BENN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the rise in the rates levied by the borough councils of London, especially in poorer districts, he will cause an inquiry to be held into the cause or need of this increase and the possibility of further equalising the burden over the whole of London.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am informed that a considerable rise in the rates which has taken place in the County of London is being inquired into by the Local Government Board. Legislation would be required to carry out the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman.
  SIR GEORGE BARTLEY: Will any steps be taken, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent the enormous borrowing that is going on.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir, I do not think it would be possible by legislation to prevent that; at any rate no scheme for preventing it has ever been brought to my notice. This, like other questions connected with local finance, must in the last resort be left to the good sense and discretion of the ratepayers. If the ratepayers do not pay attention to their duties, no doubt not only considerable local but national inconvenience will arise.
  SIR GEORGE BARTLEY: Is it not the fact that in many cities there is a limit put to the amount which can be borrowed.
  [No Answer was returned.]

  EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading To-morrow read, and discharged.
  Bill withdrawn.

NEW BILLS.
  MORTGAGE OF PREMISES BILL.
  "To amend the Law in regard to the Mortgaging of Premises containing trade machinery," presented by Sir William Holland; supported by Mr. Crombie and Mr. Parkes; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 157.]
  BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
  "To provide for the registration of dishonoured Bills of Exchange, and to allow summary judgment thereon." presented by Sir William Holland; supported by Mr. Crombie and Mr. Parkes; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 158.]
  INFECTIOUS DISEASES (IRELAND) BILL.
  "To make further provision towards the prevention of Infectious Diseases in Ireland, presented by Mr. Walter Long; supported by Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 159.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE WAYS AND MEANS).
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Proceedings of the Committee of Ways and Means, if under consideration at Twelve o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 235; Noes. 181. (Division List No. 128.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc.

  Gore, Hon. S. V. Ormsby-

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Chapman, Edward

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Coddington, Sir William

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Gretton, John

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, N.)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Heath, Sir J. (Staffords. N. W.)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Helder, Augustus

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hn H. (Somers't, E

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversham)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hunt, Rowland

  Bigwood, James

  Doughty, Sir George

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Bingham, Lord

  Douglas, Rt Hon. A. Akers-

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

  Bond, Edward

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbighs)

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Keswick, William

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H. F, (Midd's'x)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King'sLynn

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  King, Sir H. Seymour

  Brassey, Albert

  Finlay, Sir R B. (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropshire

  Fison, Frederick William

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bull, William James

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lawson, Hn H. L. W, (Mile End)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Forster, Henry William

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N. R)

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lees, Sir E. (Birkenhead)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes)

  Garfit, William

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Percy, Earl

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Spear, John Ward

  Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale)

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Purvis, Robert

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Thornton, Percy M.

  M'Iver. Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Tuff, Charles

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Tumour, Viscount

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesshire

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E.(Notts.)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Moore, William

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wills, Sir Frederick (Bristol, N.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Samuel, Sir H. S. (Limehouse)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Myers, William Henry

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Viscount Valentia.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Smith, H. C. (Nort'mb, Tyneside

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Cullinan, J.

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Allen, Charles P.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Ambrose, Robert

  Delany, William

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Devlin, Char. Ramsay (Galway

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Dillon, John

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Bell, Richard

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Benn, John Williams

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Black, Alexander William

  Duffy, William J.

  Johnson, John

  Blake, Edward

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Joicey, Sir James

  Boland, John

  Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andrw'sBghs

  Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Emmott, Alfred

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Joyce, Michael

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Burns, John

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Kennedy, P. J.(Westmeath, N.)

  Burt, Thomas

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kennedy, Vincent (P. Gavan, W.)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Caldwell, James

  Ffrench, Peter

  Kitson, Sir James

  Cameron, Robert

  Field, William

  Labouchere, Henry

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Findlay Alexander (Lanark, NE

  Lambert, George

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Lamont, Norman

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Langley, Batty

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gilhooly, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Grant, Corrie

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Hammond, John

  Levy, Maurice

  Crean, Eugene

  Harwood, George

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Crombie, John William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Lough, Thomas

  1044

  1045

  Lundon, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Sullivan, David

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Parrott, William

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Tenant, Harold John

  Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Price, Robert John

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  M'Hugh, Patrick, A.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  M'Kean, John

  Rea, Russell

  Toulmin, George

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North,)

  Reddy, M.

  Ure, Alexander

  Mooney, John J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Morley, Rt. Hon. J. (Montrose)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T)

  Moss, Samuel

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan.

  Murphy, John

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Weir, James Galloway

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Rose, Charles Day

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Norman, Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipp'rary Mid

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(Isle of Wight)

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N. Dorset

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Shaw, Thomas(Hawick B.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Sheehy, David

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Young, Samuel

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Slack, John Bamford

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  O'Dowd, John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Lloyd-George and Mr.

  O'Kelly, Conor, (Mayo, N.)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants)

  McCrae.

  O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Question put, and agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,: In rising to make the Budget statement for another year I cannot but recall the singular kindness which the Committee showed to me a year ago, and I venture to hope that they will extend to me a similar indulgence on the present occasion. Happily, the account which I have now to give of the national finances is less unfavourable than that which it was my duty to present a year ago. At that time the year which had just closed had resulted in a heavy deficit, and the resources of our then existing taxation were inadequate, not merely to make good any part of the realised deficiencies, but even to meet the requirements of the estimated expenditure of the new year. To-day I meet the Committee under happier auspices. The results of the past year, though lending no support to the exaggerated expectations which, I fear, have been formed in many quarters, are at least sufficient to show that we have turned the corner, and that we have
  1046
  done something more than establish an equilibrium between expenditure and revenue.

  THE RESOURCES OF THE YEAR 1904–5.
  The year 1904–5 was one of varying fortunes. It began badly, and in the earlier portion of the year it seemed as if our hopes were once again doomed to disappointment. Fortunately, as time went on the prospects improved. A new and bountiful crop of cotton has effaced the shortage of the previous year and has brought a rush of work and employment in the great Lancashire industry which depends upon the plentiful supply of that staple not merely for its prosperity, but almost for its very existence. Shipbuilding, which had experienced a period of sharp depression, is now showing some signs of recovery. The shipping trade itself, though still continuing depressed, and though freights remain very low, is, I think, also showing some indication of a better state of things, of which we may, perhaps, detect the first effect in the considerable orders for new ships which have lately been placed. The same intelligent anticipation of a better future is to be found in the slight improvement in the iron and steel trade which was noticeable in the closing months of last year and the earlier months of the present year. For these industries, with the shipping trade, provide the instruments of

  1047
  production and distribution, and are the first to feel the effect of any rise or fall in the commercial barometer. They are, therefore, some indication of the opinion entertained by those most competent to judge with regard to the trade prospects of the immediate future. The reviving prosperity of South Africa is another circumstance in our favour; and the prospect of cheaper money and the moderate recovery which has recently taken place in the price of securities have served to give some elasticity to our revenue from stamps, and have gone some way to make good the fall which took place in the early portion of the year in the revenue derived from the death duties. But, though we may take some comfort from these indications of a better state of things, and though we may hope that we are recovering from the depression which began in 1901, and are on the path of a moderate but steady recovery, it cannot be said that the year 1904–5 was a satisfactory one, either from the point of view of commerce and industry, or from the point of view of finance. In many of our staple trades the depression of the previous year was continued and even accentuated in 1904. I have again to chronicle the absence of any serious labour disputes, which is due in large part to the growing use of boards of conciliation and sliding scales to adjust wages questions. But employment again declined and wages fell in sympathy. Altogether it would appear that 1904 was a worse year both for employment and trade than any of its immediate predecessors, and the accumulated effects of the depression of recent years are visible in the marked increase of pauperism and distress which the past winter has witnessed. It was only in the concluding months of the year that any indications of recovery were visible; and that recovery came too late, and up to the present time has been too slight to produce any marked effect on the revenue.

  RESULTS OF THE PAST YEAR.
  The results of the past year are already in the hands of hon. Members. After allowing for the changes introduced into the Budget during its passage through this House, I estimated the revenue at £143,390,000, and it has actually realised £143,370,000, a difference of only £20,000 on these high figures.
  1048
  So near an approximation between the actual result and the estimate framed twelve months before is indeed remarkable. But I confess that I should feel more satisfied if that close correspondence in the aggregates had not been accompanied by an equally remarkable divergence in many of the details of which the result is composed. Customs fell short of my estimate by £500,000. Sugar, in spite of the shortage of supply and the high prices prevailing during the latter part of the year realised £180,000 more than I had expected. Had it not been for the failure of the Continental beet crop it would very largely have exceeded my anticipations, and though under present circumstances it is necessary to make a cautious estimate of the yield from this source of revenue in the current year, it promises to be an expanding revenue in future years, when good harvests shall have restored prices to their normal level. Tea fell short of my estimate by £210,000. The greater portion of this deficiency occurred in the last quarter of the year, and may perhaps be attributable mainly to the holding back of dutiable goods on the chance that some relief might now be available. Tobacco has again done well. It has produced nearly £600,000 more than in the preceding year, and a quarter of a million more than my estimate. That, I think, is a not unsatisfactory result for a trade which I was told I had reduced to stagnation. The coffee group shows a slight falling off, and dried fruits give a slight increase. Coal has produced £50,000 more than the estimate, realising £2,050,000. The past year has been a record one in the exportation of coal, whether we regard the export as a whole or confine our attention to that portion of coal which is subject to the tax; and that in spite of the fact that the; lower prices prevailing have brought a larger portion of the export within the limits of exemption and have excluded it from the purview of the tax.

  THE DECREASE IN WINE AND ITS CAUSES.
  Wine has done badly. As I said last year, the wine duties have for many years been a falling source of revenue. Instead of the small increase of £14,000, for which I estimated, the revenue from wine shows a further decline of £146,000.

  1049
  This may in part be due to a change in taste; it is undoubtedly in part owing to lessened purchasing power among the consuming classes. But it is also suggested to me by those in the trade that it is in part due to the growing competition, largely, as they allege, a fraudulent competition, of wines made in this country. It is asserted that there is a very considerable amount of wine manufactured in this country, partly from imported grape must, more largely from currants and raisins, and that this wine, known to the trade as "basis" wine, is sold to the British consumer partly as it stands, but more commonly in mixture with imported wine, under the names of genuine imported wines. By my instructions the Inland Revenue have made careful inquiry into this matter, and have received material assistance from most of those concerned in the matter one way or the other. I am bound to say that I think the allegations made are very much exaggerated, though probably a considerable amount of fraud is practised upon the British consumer and on foreign and colonial wine producers by the sale of these spurious wines under names to which they have no right. But the information at our disposal is at the present time too meagre to allow of any large measures of reform or largo changes in our system being proposed to the Committee, though I think it would be desirable, that we should bring the manufacturers of this British wine under revenue observation and control by imposing upon them an obligation to take out a licence at a small fee. similar to that which is exacted from the makers of British vinegar for the protection of the revenue. That, however, is a matter with which I do not propose to deal in the present Budget; it must remain for consideration by the Committee and the House on another occasion.
  So far the gains and losses on the Customs revenue pretty nearly equalised one another, though there is a slight balance in favour of the gains.

  THE FALL IN FOREIGN SPIRITS.
  But the most serious fall in this portion of our revenue has been in that which is derived from the importation of foreign spirits, which show a deficiency of no less
  1050
  than £618,000. In 1903–4 the net receipts from imported spirits were £4,458,000, and I estimated for a revenue from the same source in 1904–5 of £4,450,000; the actual yield has been only £3,840,000, and of that deficiency no less than five-sixths occurred in the single article of foreign plain spirits. This was due to the same causes which have affected the price of sugar in the past few months—that is, the climatic conditions, which caused the failure of the potato and the beet crops. In 1904 the crop of potatoes in Germany was 198,000,000 cwt. less than in 1903, and as much as 312,000,000 cwt. less than in the plentiful year 1901. In 1902, when the surplus potatoes of 1901 had no doubt been turned into spirits, the import value here of German plain spirits was only 6s. 9d. per proof gallon. In 1904, when the German potato crop was the shortest of recent years, the price had risen to 14s. 3d. The demand for spirit in Germany absorbed the major portion of the production, and at the prices prevailing that country was apparently unable to compete with home-made spirits. I now pass from Customs to Excise.

  EXCISE.
  Excise, I am sorry to say, also failed to realise my expectations. Beer was expected to produce £13,100,000; it has reached a total of £12,680,000. Spirits, from which I anticipated a revenue of £17,700,000, have produced only £17,360,000, in spite of the marked decline in the importation of foreign spirits to which I have just alluded, which should naturally have produced a corresponding rise in the production of British spirits. Taking once again Customs and Excise together, the combined revenue from beer and spirits has fallen by no less than £1,370,000 below the estimate, an estimate, I may add, which took no credit for the increase of consumption which might normally be expected to follow from the growth of population, but was itself actually below the net receipts of the preceding year.

  THE DECLINE IN SPIRITS AND BEER CONSUMPTION.
  This continued decline in the growth of revenue from alcohol in its various forms will give rise to various reflections,

  1051
  according as to whether for the moment we are most concerned with, the moral and social condition of the country or with the balance-sheet of the national accounts. Last year, in attempting to account for an even greater decline, I attributed some part of it to the character of the seasons, and some part of it to diminished spending power among the masses of the people. No doubt within the last twelve months their spending power has not increased; but from further experience I think we must look to more permanent causes for the full explanation of the remarkable decline that has taken place in recent years in the consumption of alcohol. It is of course impossible to discriminate positively and precisely between the relative importance of the diminished power of purchasing, and the diminished desire to consume in producing this result; but there are some signs which I think make it necessary that we should attribute to the latter factor no small share in the decline. It used to be considered that a good harvest was worth a considerable sum to the beer revenue; yet a good summer and plentiful crops last year produced no appreciable effect on the collection; and it is at least significant that the great revival of trade in the last six months in Lancashire, though not counterbalanced by increased depression elsewhere, has done nothing to check the decline. Taking calendar years for the purposes of comparison, because they are less liable than financial years to disturbance by changes or anticipated changes in the rate of duty, I find that the consumption per head both of spirits and of beer was less in 1904 than in any one of the last fifteen years, and that since 1900 the decline has been continuous. The consumption of spirits per head of the population in 1900 was 1·09 gallons, and by 1904 it had sunk to ·95 of a gallon. The consumption of beer, which in 1900 was 31½gallons per head of the population, had decreased last year to 29 gallons.

  A CHANGE IN THE HABITS OF THE PEOPLE.
  The fact seems to be that we are witnessing a change in the habits of the people of which we shall have to take account in any consideration of our
  1052
  financial system. I do not refer merely to the growth of a public opinion throughout all classes of the community which condemns drunkenness as disgraceful and disgusting. The prosperity of the trade and the revenue derived from it never have depended, and never will depend, upon the drunkard. But I think that the mass of our people are beginning to find other ways of expending some portion of the time and money which used previously to be spent in the public-house. No change has been more remarkable in the habits of the people than the growing attendances in the last fifteen years at outdoor games and sports and at places of public entertainment, like the theatres and the music-halls, which, though not conducted on strictly temperance lines, yet do not lend themselves to the consumption of drink, or offer that as their chief attraction. Again, the extension of cheap railway fares and the enormous growth of cheap excursions, which are so marked a feature in the holidays of the present time, absorb a further portion of the money that used formerly to be expended on drink. I am inclined to believe that the progress of temperance owes more to the operation of these causes than to any measures, however desirable in themselves, which this House has seen fit to take. I think it will interest the Committee to hear some extracts from a report on this subject which I have received from an Inland Revenue supervisor of experience stationed at Leeds. He says—
  "There are seventy-one brewers in this district, and at least sixty of these are publicans or beer retailers. It is the general opinion that a wave of sobriety is passing over the country, and the working and middle classes, instead of spending their holidays in the public-house, take advantage of the cheap excursion trains and cheap tramway fares, while in the evening they visit the music-halls or other places of amusement. Many publicans attribute their falling receipts entirely to the latter cause, and to the extension of the custom of giving two nightly performances. To verify certain statements, I visited several public houses on the August Bank Holiday, and I found them practically empty. I visited the railway station and found that every excursion train was packed, and that the departing trains with their heavy loads appeared to have no visible effect on the crowds on the platform, owing to the steady influx of holiday makers. There was no indication of the want of money so long as it was required for pleasure or amusement."
  He goes on to say that on the August Bank Holiday one of the largest publicans in the district went holiday-making to a seaside resort, and called upon a friend in the same trade. They went for a walk on the promenade, and the visitor, struck by the enormous crowds, suggested to his friend that trade must be very brisk. The local publican denied it, and, pointing to the people on the beach and their packets of provisions, said: "Look at them! they bring their nosebags with them. They spend nothing here except for admission to the pier or tower; all their money has gone in railway fares." The supervisor from whom I am quoting states that similar reports reach him from other places, and adds—
  "I am convinced that the revenue from beer and spirits has reached the high-water mark and is falling, and will continue to do so. Any increase of wages in the future will be expended in pleasure and amusement, and not on drink."
  That conclusion is expressed in terms more absolute than I should be inclined to adopt. I do not doubt that with reviving prosperity our revenue from this source may regain some measure of its old elasticity; but I do not think that we can count upon it in future to bear so large a proportion of our expenditure as it has borne in the past. That is a factor with which we shall have to count. It is a change which may bring unmixed satisfaction to nearly every Member of the House except the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but it leaves a gap in our financial system which we shall have to find other means of filling.

  THE INDIRECT TAXPAYER.
  It is one of the objects of any system of national taxation that every member of the community should contribute his fair share of the expenditure of a Government, which in the last resort is controlled and directed by the popular will. But it is obvious that such a change as I have described without any change in taxation, may upset the financial equilibrium, and by altering the proportionate burdens of different classes or individuals may render inequitable and unjust a system of taxation which in other times and with other tastes was both fair and reasonable. I remember that when my right hon. friend the Member for West Bristol imposed the duty on sugar an
  1054
  hon. Member confided to me that for the first time he had become an indirect taxpayer. He neither drank alcohol, nor did he smoke; coffee lie never touched, and tea disagreed with him. An occasional cup of cocoa may perhaps have contributed some small toll to the revenue; but for the rest he went scot free. I do not doubt that the hon. Member was grateful to my right hon. friend for the opportunity which he afforded him of contributing more nearly his fair share to our national revenue; but it is clear that if the principles or the tastes of that hon. Member were to prevail among large sections of the people, our present distribution of taxation would become increasingly unfair, and others besides my right hon. friend the Member for West Bristol might be obliged to call new taxes into existence to redress the balance of the old. For the present, however, I only desire to call the attention of the Committee to a tendency which appears to me to be of importance in any review of our national finances, and which has left its mark on the results of the preceding year.

  RELATIVE PROPORTIONS OF DIRECT AND INDIRECT TAXATION.
  In my Budget Estimate I anticipated that, excluding the tax on coal 51·8 per cent, of our tax revenue would be derived from indirect taxes. Owing to the circumstances I have mentioned, they have contributed only 50·9 per cent.
  Customs and Excise having disappointed my expectations, it is to direct taxation that I owe the near approximation of the actual receipts to my Budget Estimate. Death duties, it is true, produced only £12,350,000, or £650,000 less than I had anticipated. The result must be ascribed in the main to the fact that we were less than usually fortunate—I hope the Committee will pardon me that expression—in the earlier portion of the year, in the matter of large estates. Stamps began badly, but they more than made good the deficit of the earlier months in the latter portion of the year. They produced £150,000 more than our Estimate, or £7,700,000. Land tax and house duty show an excess of £100,000.

  INCOME-TAX.
  But the great pain in direct taxation is due to the income-tax, which exceeded my Estimate by £1,250,000, yielding £31,250,000 in the course of the year. So much attention has been called to the increased yield of the income-tax and so much misconception appears to be abroad in regard to the matter that I hope I shall have an early opportunity of going fully into the question. For the present I think I shall best consult the wishes and the not unnatural impatience of the Committee if I pass briefly over the subject. I have to admit at once two errors in the estimate which I made. In the first place I undoubtedly overrated the decline which was to be expected from the inclusion in the averages, by which a large portion of the tax is collected, of what was on the whole a bad year in place of what had been a very good one; and, in the second place, I made no allowance at all for the increased efficiency of collection which has been going on for some years, but which was undoubtedly largely stimulated by the new instructions issued by the Board of Inland Revenue to the collectors in the month of September last. As I say, I do not doubt that I shall have an opportunity of giving the House full information on the subject, and of making the explanation which I wish to do, before very long. For the present I confine myself to the statement that those instructions were issued by the Board of Inland Revenue in the exercise of their ordinary discretion, without any regard to the circumstances of this particular year, and without any hint or suggestion from me. I am, of course, absolutely responsible for them I take the whole responsibility. But I think, having regard to what has been said and suggested outside, that the Committee ought to know that these instructions were not the result of the pressure of a needy Chancellor of the Exchequer, but were the ordinary action of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in pursuit of a policy which they had long been following. I estimate that owing to the steps which were taken the receipt for the past year has been increased by £800,000, and the arrears left over for collection in the
  1056
  present year have been correspondingly diminished. I may add, and I think it will interest the Committee to know it, that since 1901 there has been a steady diminution in the amount of arrears per penny of tax left over for collection in the next financial year. Thus, in 1901, they were £567,000 per penny of tax; in 1902 they fell by £28,000 to £539,000; in 1903 they fell by no less than £89,000 to £450,000; in 1904 they fell by £34,000 to £416,000; while this year I estimate, on the best calculation that I can make at the present, time that they have further fallen by £66,000, and will stand for the current year at £350,000 per penny of tax. The Committee will therefore see that this has been a movement of steady progress for some years past and that it is no sudden or new departure, but the natural development and consequence of a policy which we have for sometime been pursuing. That concludes my review of the revenue of the past year, I am afraid an unusually long one, but there were some features in it which I thought might be of exceptional interest to the Committee.

  EXPENDITURE OF 1904–5.
  I will now turn to the other side of the account. I budgeted for an expenditure of £142,880,000, including the amount estimated to be required for the military operations in Somaliland. The actual issues, inclusive of further small Supplementary Estimates voted in the present session, have amounted, however, only to £141,956,000, or £924,000 less than my estimate. To complete the comparison of the previous years, and to give the House a statement of the aggregate expenditure of the State, we must add to those figures the amount collected and applied in relief of local rates—namely £9,813,000—and in expenditure on capital account for works authorised by Parliament, which we financed during the course of the year to the extent of £8,069,000. The interest and Sinking Fund for these loans is, as the Committee knows, separately provided for in the Votes of the different Departments on whose account the loans are made. Adding these amounts to the total which I have already given, we arrive at a sum of £159,838,000 as the aggregate expenditure of the State during

  1057
  the year on revenue and capital accounts combined.

  THE REALISED SURPLUS.
  Returning now to the Exchequer account, we find that the result is that, with a revenue of £143,370,000 and an expenditure chargeable against it of £141,956,000 we close the year with a surplus of £1,414,000, compared with a Budget Estimate of £510,000. This realised surplus of nearly a £1,500,000 becomes Old Sinking Fund, and will be applied under the provisions of the Sinking Fund Act, 1875, in accordance with the statement I made last year to the Committee, to strengthen our balances. We shall thus almost exactly make good the draft made upon them by the deficit of the previous year. I am glad to say that our balances are now in a much better position than they were a year ago. We started the year with a nominal balance of £4,264,000, but of this £2,000,000, or nearly one-half, represented a temporary loan from the Bank which has since been repaid, so that the real balance on March 31st last was £2,264,000. But in 1903–4 we had advanced on capital account £2,000,000 more than the National Debt Commissioners could at that time provide, and this sum has since been repaid. We have also exercised the powers of borrowing on Exchequer Bonds conferred on us by the Capital Expenditure Act of last year to the extent of £6,000,000, and of the amount so realised we have still in hand £843,000. The realised surplus of the past year gave us, as I have explained, £1,414,000, and in a cordance with the provisions of the Finance Act of last year we obtained a further sum of £1,000,000 by the realisation of Consols standing to the credit of the Unclaimed Dividend Account. From the total of £7,521,000 which we have thus obtained we have to deduct the discount of £86,000 paid on the renewal of various Exchequer Bonds, and a sum of £5,000, by which our temporary advances exceeded our repayments, making altogether £91,000, and leaving us a balance of £7,430,000 with which to commence the present year. It may perhaps interest the Committee to know that the India Council took up £1,200,000 of Treasury bills, which had to be renewed in the course of the year.

  THE DEBT.
  I turn now to the Debt. And once again I must distinguish, as we have done in previous years, between what we are accustomed to describe as the dead-weight debt and the debt incurred for the purposes of public defence or improvement, such as naval and military works and public buildings and the like. Sir, the distinction is doubly sound, because, in the first place, the latter debt has, as the Committee are aware, its own provision for Sinking Fund and interest which is charged upon the Votes of the Department which has expended the money, and it stands wholly outside the dead-weight debt for the service of which the Fixed Debt Charge is provided. In the second place, we hold against that debt assets in the shape of the works constructed by means of that expenditure, which will outlast the currency of the debt itself. During the year this portion of the debt has been very largely increased. At the beginning of the year it stood at £31,868,000; by the close of the year it had reached a total of £41,664,000, an increase of £9,796,000. It is perhaps scarcely necessary for me to remind the Committee that the whole of the undertakings on which that money is expended had received the approval of the House in previous sessions, and that no increase of our liabilities was incurred during the past year. I have more than once expressed my own view to the Committee that, however necessary it was to have recourse to this method to make good the arrears of past years or to meet circumstances of an exceptional and extraordinary kind, it ought not to form part of our permanent financial system. We have, of course, still to complete the works which Parliament has already sanctioned and to take whatever steps are necessary in order to fulfil the obligations which Parliament has already incurred; but I hope that it will not be necessary to extend the programme which has already been approved. I hold that this procedure should be reserved for exceptional occasions. The dead-weight debt on March 31st, 1904, stood at £762,630,000. In the course of the twelve months the funded debt has been reduced by £1,950,000, the estimated liability on terminable annuities

  1059
  by £3,608,000, and the unfunded debt by the amount of the £2,000,000 which we borrowed temporarily from the Bank the year before in order to strengthen our balance. The total reduction of the dead-weight debt in the course of the twelve months has therefore been £7,558,000. At the close of the year this debt stood at £755,072,000. With that statement I finish my review of the past year and I turn to the prospects of the present year.

  PROSPECTS OF THE PRESENT YEAR.
  The current year's services charged on the Consolidated Fund amounted to £29,780,000. Supply services, for which Estimates have already been laid before Parliament, amount to £111,252,000, making altogether a total estimated expenditure on that account of £141,032,000. To arrive at the total expenditure of the year we have to add the money which will be collected and applied to local purposes, amounting to £9,756,000, and the amount required for expenditure on works charged to capital, which I provisionally estimate at £9,000,000. I shall be prepared at a later date to give the Committee full details as to the estimates of this expenditure, but I have not at the present time means at my disposal to do more than give them the total in round numbers. The total sum, therefore, for which the State has to provide in the current year is £159,788,000, of which £141,032,000 is chargeable against the revenue for the year. To meet this expenditure I estimate that the following revenue will be available on the present basis of taxation. Customs I put at £35,600,000—that is to say, £630,000 less than the estimate, and £130,000 less than the receipts of the past year. I have to allow for a further fall of rather over £400,000 in the produce of the sugar duty, but against this I can set certain gains on other items of revenue. Excise I put at £30,200,000, or £1,300,000 below the estimate of last year; that allows for a further fall of £550,000 in the receipts from this source of revenue. I now come to the death duties. In the closing portion of the year there was some improvement in their yield, and I think we may
  1060
  anticipate a further recovery in the present year. I therefore place my estimate at £13,000,000, which is the amount actually realised in the year 1903–4. Stamps did better than my estimate last year, and I think we may expect a further improvement in the current year. I place them, therefore, at £8,000,000. Land tax and House duty I put at £2,700,000; Property and Income-tax at £31,000,000. That is £250,000 less than the yield for the past year, because, although the arrears will be collected at a higher I figure, there will be fewer arrears to collect. That gives me a total tax I revenue of £120,500,000. From the Post Office I anticipate an increase of £400,000, making the receipts £16,500,000. From the Telegraphs I expect an increase of £220,000, or a total ravenue of £4,050,000. From Crown Lands I expect to get £470,000, and from Miscellaneous Revenue £1,450,000. I am reminded that I have not mentioned in my calculations of non-tax revenue the produce of the Suez Canal shares—a grave omission, and one which I should regret the more if it did not serve to emphasise the admirable results we have achieved by that historic investment. The Suez Canal shares will, I anticipate, yield a revenue of £1,034,000. The total non-tax revenue will be, therefore, £23,504,000, which, added to a tax revenue of £120,500,000 gives a total revenue of £144,004,000, against an estimated expenditure of £141,032,000, leaving us a surplus on the present basis of taxation of £2,972,000.

  CONDITION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT.
  When I appeared at this Table a year ago with a heavy realised deficit, and another deficit in prospect, the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to me to be hardly enviable. Now that I appear twelve months later with a modest surplus already realised, and a further surplus possible, fresh fears beset my mind. I am not certain that a Chancellor of the Exchequer with emptypockets is not a safer and more light-hearted man than one with a small surplus at his command. There are so many candidates for relief, and the fragments at my disposal will not suffice to feed the multitude! But I have no doubt

  1061
  whatever what is the first claim upon us under present circumstances, and I hope this Committee, without distinction of Party, will support the Government in the course they have decided to recommend. I spoke just now of the amount of our National Debt. It stood on March 31st last at £796,736,000. or taking the dead-weight debt alone, at £755,072,000. It was largely increased during the late war, when not only was the major portion of the Sinking Fund suspended for three years, but heavy new loans were incurred. That was not only a justifiable but a necessary course; but if it is right and just to borrow largely in the emergency of a great war, when the honour and even the existence of the Empire are at stake, it is upon the condition that when, peace is re-established we take the first opportunity in our power to restore our national credit and to lighten the burden of debt which we hand on to our successors. And if that statement be true of all times and all circumstances, there are special reasons for taking such a course to-day. It is not only that the total of our debt is large, but the unfunded debt stands at the exceptionally high figure of £77,633,000. I use the term unfunded debt to describe all debt the discharge of which on a fixed date was part of the bargain with the lender, and for the redemption of which within its currency no specific provision has been made by Parliament. It includes Treasury bills, amounting in round figures to £21,000,000, War Stock amounting to £30,000,000, and Exchequer Bonds amounting to £26,500,000. Of this amount the whole of War Stock and £12,500,000 of the Exchequer Bonds do not fall due until 1907–8 or later years, but £14,000,000 of the Exchequer Bonds expire in December of this year. In view of that contingency, I think it is necessary that we should not be content with the simple renewal of these Bonds, for which we already have Parliamentary authority, but that we should take such steps as will secure their redemption by a regular process and within a reasonable time.
  The proposal which I am about to submit to the Committee has these objects in view. By the Sinking Fund already at our disposal, and by means of the repay-
  1062
  ments lately received from the Transvaa on account of works executed upon their railways and stores handed over to them at the close of the war, I hope to be able to extinguish four out of these fourteen millions. There will then remain ten millions of Bonds to be dealt with in December next; and in order to enable me to pay them off, I propose that new Bonds of an equivalent amount should be issued with a currency of ten years, but—and this is the important consideration to which I desire to direct the special attention of the Committee—that one-tenth of the total issue should be drawn and repaid each year. And in order that the Sinking Fund which I attach to these new bonds shall not trench upon the Sinking Fund we have at present available for the redemption of the debt, I propose that the Fixed Debt Charge shall be increased by £1,000,000 a year, so that it shall stand at £28,000,000 instead of £27,000,000. By this means we shall have redeemed this portion of the debt within a comparatively few years, and without any of the disturbance which accompanies a sudden operation upon a large scale, whilst, by attaching to the new Bonds a Sinking Fund of the amount and character I have described, we shall render them more attractive to investors, and be able to issue them upon better terms than would otherwise be obtainable.

  A LIMITED FUNDING OPERATION.
  I am aware that there is a certain novelty about this procedure, because the Sinking Fund which I propose to attach to the new Bonds will form part of the bargain with the public creditor and cannot therefore be suspended under any circumstances. But even during the late war more than a million of the then existing Sinking Fund was subject to the same condition; and I think the course proposed is justifiable when the security to which the Sinking Fund is attached is of comparatively short duration, and when the amount of Sinking Fund remaining available as a war reserve is itself sufficiently large. And though it has not been customary for the State to attach specific Sinking Funds to securities for which it is itself directly liable, we have several precedents for such a course as I propose in connection with guaranteed loans, such, for instance, as the Turkish

  1063
  Loan of 1855, the Egyptian Loan of 1885, and the Greek Loan of 1898. The proposal which I make is in fact a limited funding operation, and I so limit it for more reasons than one. Even if I were convinced that it would be necessary to have recourse to further funding, I do not think anyone will contend that the present moment is a propitious time to choose for a large issue of Consols or that it is in itself desirable, if such a result can be avoided, to create a new denomination of stock: whilst either of those alternatives, unless accompanied by such an increase in the Fixed Debt Charge as I have suggested, would tend to defer to the future obligations for which I believe that it is our present duty to provide. In any case the proposal which I have made meets the contingency for which early provision is necessary. Next year the new Sinking Fund will be increased by the falling in of some of the terminable annuities, and a larger sum will therefore be available for use, if it is so desired, in redeeming further Unfunded Debt in the hands of the public, while before long I hope we shall have also available for the same purpose the first instalment of the Transvaal War Contribution. That contribution was promised by the most representative gathering of the British inhabitants of the Transvaal which could be summoned at the time when the promise was given. Its fulfilment has been delayed by the industrial and financial depression which has since fallen upon that country; and although with the new labour conditions that depression is now passing away, we have not thought it right to impose upon the Transvaal, by the exercise of our authority in a now moribund nominated Council, an obligation which we believe the new Representative Assembly will voluntarily assume as the fulfilment of an obligation of honour and the recognition of a high Imperial duty. I do not believe that anything in the proposals which I am making, or in the increased sacrifices to pay off debt which I am asking from the public, will do anything to weaken—on the contrary, I believe they will help to strengthen—the determination of our fellow-citizens in the Transvaal to discharge as early as may be their share in the arrangement which was come to between us. In any case, I commend these proposals with confidence to
  1064
  the judgment of the Committee. The two things most calculated to restore our national credit to its former high level and to ease our financial position are an increase in the Sinking Fund and a diminution in the Unfunded Debt. Both are included in the plan I have submitted. I propose to issue these new bonds at once. The Committee are aware that, owing to the excess of expenditure over revenue in the earlier portion of the year, we have of late years been obliged to avail ourselves largely of the power of borrowing temporarily on Treasury Bills conferred upon us by the various Consolidated Fund Acts. If the House approves my proposal to make the new issue at an early date, I shall have the use of the money so raised in the earlier portion of the financial year, and shall be able to restrict my temporary borrowings on Treasury Bills to a proportionate extent. I hope that in other respects also we shall make fewer demands on the money market this year. In 1904 we had to raise £6,000,000 of Local Loans stock, £5,000,000 of Irish Land stock, and £6,000,000 of Exchequer Bonds for financing capital expenditure, so that, apart from temporary borrowings on Ways and Means, we took from the market no less than £17,000,000 of new money between the months of January and December. In the present calendar year I hope that it will not be necessary to make any fresh issue of Local Loans stock or to go into the market for requirements connected with our capital expenditure. If these expectations are realised, as I believe they will be, our only application to the market from January to December of the present year will be for the issue of the £6,000,000 of Irish Land stock already made, and for such temporary borrowings on Ways and Means as may still be necessary after taking credit for the issue of the new Exchequer Bonds in anticipation of the date on which the old Bonds expire. This proposal disposes of £1,000,000 out of my surplus.

  MINOR PROPOSALS.
  I think at this point I must very briefly refer to two Committees which have been sitting to inquire into matters connected with our revenue. The first is the Income-tax Committee

  1065
  presided over by my right hon. friend the Member for Croydon. That Committee has not yet presented its Report, although I think it has very nearly completed its labours; but, of course, the results will arrive too late for me to apply them to the finances of the present year. The other Committee, the appointment of which arose out of our Finance Bill discussions of last year, was asked to inquire into the facilities that now exist for the use of alcohol for industrial purposes, and to recommend any changes which they might think necessary with a view to facilitating the development of our trade. Their Report reached me a few days ago, and will be in the hands of Members within a very short time. It proposes certain changes in our regulations, some of them of a rather technical character, which I think the Committee will better appreciate from a perusual of the Report itself than from any statement I could make. I only desire to say that, on the consideration which I have up to the present time been able to give, I hope to be able to adopt the whole of these recommendations, though they will require legislation and must form the subject of a separate measure. They will, I believe, remove difficulties which have existed in the use of alcohol in certain trades, and I hope they will be accepted as a satisfactory solution of a very difficult and complicated problem by all concerned. I must also very briefly announce one or two minor changes which I propose to introduce. The Committee may remember that in the course of the discussion of the Finance Bill of last year I accepted an Amendment reducing the Warehousing Charges payable on the clearance of certain dutiable goods from the Customs to one half the figure at which it previously stood. Those charge were graduated according to the amount of the duty, and when I raised the duty I had no desire to raise the charges at the same time. The Warehousing Charges now stand at 1/16 or 1⅛ per cent., according to the nature of the goods. They only bring in £26,000 to the revenue and cause an amount of trouble and annoyance, and, I believe, often of cost to the traders out of all proportion to their value to the Exchequer. I propose to
  1066
  clear away the remainder of the Warehousing Charges. For the same reason I propose to abolish the stamp on bonds given for the exportation or removal of dutiable goods and on notices to export given under a general bond, and also the penny stamp on delivery orders. It is difficult to defend the retention of these stamp duties when once attention is drawn to them. The former is unequal in its incidence, for whilst bonds and notices relating to tea and tobacco are liable, similar bonds and notices relating to coal and spirits are exempt. The stamp on delivery orders is not less difficult to justify. It is very easy of evasion, and I think the obligation to pay it is more honoured in the breach than in the observance. When I made some inquiry, after a recent deputation, why this matter had not been again pressed upon my attention by the members who waited upon me, I learned that it was because so little was paid on that account already that they thought it better not to direct my attention to it. These two stamp duties together produce only £10,000 or £12,000 to the revenue, and are even less worth retaining from the Exchequer point of view than the Warehousing Charge. I believe that the relief accorded by these changes will be appreciated by traders. They will strike some fetters off trade which have existed for many years, in spite of the little justification there is for them. The relief will cost practically nothing to the Exchequer, and does not affect the figures which I have already given to the Committee, for I have taken account of it in the Estimates that I have already presented.

  THE TEA DUTY.
  I have still, therefore, £1,972,000 available to meet contingencies or for the reduction of taxation. I greatly regret that it is not in my power to propose any relief to the income-tax payers. I said last year, and I hold now, that an income-tax of 1s. in the £ in time of peace is more than ought to be demanded of them, and leaves us too small a reserve in case of the emergency of, war. I shall not be satisfied with our financial position until we have been able to reduce the tax to a more moderate figure. But

  1067
  the amount at my disposition, after adding to the Sinking Fund, is unequal to the task of giving them any relief. The reduction of the income-tax by 1d. would cost£2,200,000 in the current year, and as the committee know the sum at my disposal is less than £2,000,000.
  Setting aside this course, therefore, as beyond my power, I choose tea as the subject for relief; and I choose it for three reasons. In the first place, Sir, the tea duty is the only tax which stands to-day at a higher figure than it ever attained during the period of the late war; and it, therefore, has a prior claim to relief over other indirect taxes, which, if they were raised during the war, have not been again raised since the war. In the second place, I choose tea because it is an article of almost universal consumption, and the relief, therefore, will find its way to every household in the kingdom. And I choose tea, in the third place, because our present supplies of this article come almost entirely from British Colonies and dependencies, and it was with avowed reluctance that last year I chose such an article to be the subject of an increase in taxation. I propose, therefore, to devote the remainder of my surplus to removing, as from July 1st next, the date on which the present duty expires, the additional 2d. on tea which was imposed last year. I shall be prepared to defend the date which I to have chosen if it is challenged. It is sufficient to say at present that the money available is not sufficient to reduce the duty as from the present time. I estimate that the cost of that concession will be£1,550,000 in the current year.

  THE FINAL BALANCE SHEET.
  I am now in a position to present my final balance-sheet to the House. Customs, after allowing for the reduction in the tea duty, will stand at £34,050,000, thus reducing the total estimated revenue to £142,454,000. The Fixed Debt Charge, being increased by £1,000,000, will stand at £28,000,000, and the expenditure will be correspondingly increased to £142,032,000, leaving a balance of £422,000 available to meet contingencies. That concludes my task. I have now only to thank the Committee for the
  1068
  attention which they have accorded to me. It has been my fortune to be Chancellor of the Exchequer in two years of trade depression and financial stagnation. Last year it was my duty to impose an increase in our burdens. This year the small measure of relief which it is in our power to afford falls, I am afraid, far short of the expectations which have been formed in many quarters. Such times as these do not lend themselves to the production of what are known as popular Budgets. But in the proposals which I have laid before the Committee on behalf of His Majesty's Government we have sought not our own present popularity, but the permanent interests of the country. And by adopting these proposals the Committee will do all that lies in their power to stimulate the movement of recovery which is now visible, to enhance our national credit, and to strengthen the confidence rightly felt in the soundness and stability of our national finance.

  EXCHEQUER BONDS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That for the purpose of paying off any Exchequer Bonds issued under the Supplemental War Loan Acts of 1900, any sums not exceeding £10,000,000 be raised by the issue of Exchequer Bonds to be current, subject to the provisions for the redemption of the total issue, for a period of ten years, and that in each year of that period one-tenth part of the total issue of the new Bonds be drawn for repayment and redeemed by the application for the purpose of the requisite part of the new sinking fund, and that the permanent annual charge for the National Debt be increased so as to be £28,000,000."
  "That any expenses incurred in connection with raising or paying off any such sums, and the principal of and interest of any such sums, be charged on the Consolidated Fund, and, as to the interest, be paid as part of the permanent annual charge for the National Debt."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I only desire to interpolate a few remarks at this stage, the first and almost principal of which is to

  1069
  express our congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman, not only upon the clearness and ability of his statement, but also upon its duration, because there is an impression in this quarter of the House that it is perhaps the shortest Budget speech that we have listened to for many years. That is the greatest praise that I can possibly offer. I wish to refer to an arrangement which I urged upon the Government last year in regard to the discussion of the Budget Resolutions—namely, that, apart from the general discussion that may take place to-night, there should be an opportunity on one or other of the other Resolutions for a general discussion to-morrow or on Wednesday. I think that last year it was arranged that a certain Resolution should be used for the purposes of a general discussion, and I trust that the same course will be followed on this occasion.
  I pass now to the substance of the Budget; and again I have to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman. I congratulate him especially with regard to the Debt, which shows that he maintains this year the fortitude which he displayed in the same matter last year under even greater temptations than those that beset him now. I would also say that it will not be in this quarter of the House, where we have year by year supported Motions for the reduction of the tea duty, that any objection will be made to that proposal. Of course we cannot help but notice that there still remains a large amount of war taxation pressing hardly upon the people because of the expenditure on what we think the extravagant Estimates which the Government have put forward, which gives the right hon. Gentleman no margin with which to relieve these burdens. For instance, after all the consideration that has been given to the Army Estimates, after all the promises that have been made regarding them, if there had been upon them a reduction to something like the extent as on the Navy Estimates, the right hon. Gentleman could have given some further boon to the much-pressed taxpayers of the country in addition to the removal of the tea duty that he imposed last year, since the war was over.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: It is quite in accordance with precedent that the right hon. Gentleman has refrained from making any criticism on the admirable statement which my right hon. friend has made. The chief purpose of his remarks was to inquire whether any arrangement could be come to between the two sides of the House with regard to the discussion of our financial arrangements. My right hon. friend, for reasons that he is quite willing to explain, thinks it is absolutely necessary to obtain the first Resolution in the course of this evening. On the other hand, we are of course sensible of the fact that the House has a right to discuss the Budget in its larger aspects at this stage. That can be done by arrangement on any Resolution. [An HON. MEMBER: The income-tax.] But I hope an arrangement will be made that will enable us to finish the proceedings on this stage on Wednesday night. Otherwise, it will be difficult to so arrange the business of the House that we may rise on Wednesday week for the holidays.
  MR. LOUGHsaid that, although it was impossible to give a full and measured criticism of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposals, the discussion immediately following the Budget statement was always extremely valuable, in that it gave Members an opportunity of expressing their views upon the general financial policy of the Government. He was glad to be in agreement with avid to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the main portion of the Budget; he thought the right hon. Gentleman had made an excellent use of the small amount at his disposal, and the popularity with which the announcement was received would have shown the right hon. Gentleman that he was wise in leaving the burden on the income-taxpayers untouched for the present, and in considering the greater sorrows of the classes he proposed to relieve. If he might make one remark about, tea, it would be that all the reasons which the right hon. Gentleman had adduced today for removing the burden were in existence last year, and one could not but regret the exigency which compelled the Chancellor of the Exchequer then

  1071
  to impose so heavy a burden which he felt bound to remove a year afterwards. Soma difficulty might arise, however, in consequence of the reduction not coming into operation until July 1st. That, he believed, was not in accordance with precedent, and the right hon. Gentleman would possibly find that the loss both to the Exchequer and to the trade would be less if the reduction came into force immediately. For clearances to be postponed and old stocks of tea in the 60,000 grocers' shops in the land to be used down to the last instead of there being free withdrawals from the Customs House would not be any better for the revenue than for the trade. But if there were indications of such a stagnation of business arising, the fact would doubtless be brought to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman, who might then, at a later period, reconsider the point.
  He thanked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the great attention he had given to the intricate and difficult matters connected with the stamp duty and warehouse charge, which for years past had pressed quite unfairly on the tea and other trades. The historic Chancellor of the Exchequer was always so busily engaged in dealing with millions of money that he had been unable to have any regard for the difficulties put in the way of some trades by the incidence of tax collection. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, seemed to have grasped those difficulties, and his announcement with regard to the warehouse charge, the stamp or delivery orders, and the stamp on goods removed under bond would be greatly appreciated by the trade. From his interesting statement regarding the decrease in the wine, beer, and spirit duties, the right hon. Gentleman had omitted one very obvious cause, which, regarding the matter from the financial standpoint, ought not to be forgotten. The reason this particular branch of revenue was not so elastic as in previous years was that the taxation had been raised to a point not hitherto reached. The taxation was too high, and it was in consequence not producing so well. For instance, the duty on light wines was suddenly raised 25 per cent. and
  1072
  then another niggling change was made. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had really no business to preach little sermons on the way people enjoyed themselves at holiday times, when all experience should convince him that the undue raising of a tax inevitably diminished its yield, and that a better revenue was likely to be realised from a tax moderately fixed. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would look into this point and seriously consider whether lower rates of duty might not, on the whole, be more productive.
  He was amused at the attempt of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to throw upon his predecessors the blame for what he called "the deficiency in the collecting of the income-tax." That expression hardly covered the steps the right hon. Gentleman had been taking. An inquest was recently held at Holborn on a man who had committed suicide because he was unable to obtain the money to pay the income-tax. The Committee generally would probably agree that the right hon. Gentleman had taken too stringent measures this year in the matter of income-tax collection. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh was, he believed, the cause of the trouble, he having called attention to the earlier collection in Scotland. It was probably the fact that North of the Tweed the amount paid was so small that it could easily be raised, whereas down South it made considerable difference when the amount had to be paid a month or two earlier. He regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer saw no prospect of reducing the borrowings this year. It was really blameworthy on the part of the right hon. Gentleman that he should deliver small lectures on the necessity of paying expenditure out of revenue, and, at the same time, fail to take any steps in that direction himself. The proposal to issue immediately £10,000,000 bills to meet the Treasury bills due in December would have to be looked into very closely, as the proper way would seem to be to wait until the bills fell due, and then make the best arrangements possible. On the whole, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made an excellent statement—a good conservative statement, using the word in its best and not

  1073
  its Party sense. The better provision for the reduction of Debt would be a solid contribution, towards the improvement of the finances of the country, and the right hon. Gentleman had acted wisely in dealing with his small surplus in the mild and restrained way he had adopted instead of fulfilling the somewhat high hopes which had been entertained in some quarters.
  *SIR ALBERT ROLLITwelcomed the change which had been promised in regard to the removal of the restrictions applying to the use of alcohol for business purposes. Not only had those restrictions given an unfair and a very great preference to foreign countries but they had caused certain forms of industrial employment to be absolutely banished from this country. Nothing could be more acceptable to commerce than that such impediments should be removed, or, at any rate, reduced. The appointment of a Committee to consider the question was in itself an excellent thing. He congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon other important commercial reforms as to minor customs restrictions, etc., which he had announced, and he hoped he would make further advances in a similar direction. They would certainly have been glad if some reduction could have been made in the income-tax and they looked forward with interest to the Report of the Committee which had been appointed to consider the question. He hoped the result would be that some consideration would be shown to precarious incomes as compared with those derived from realised profits. He hoped there would be progress in the direction indicated by Sir Stafford Northcote, that was in the direction of a more equitable graduation of the tax according to the means and abilities of those who had to pay. The Report of this Committee would be looked forward to with great interest. But whatever might be said in favour of a reduction of the income-tax, and he greatly regretted some reduction had not been made, and he thought this might have been done. he was sure that an article like tea, should receive the removal of that increase which had happily now proved to be merely temporary taxation. He was glad that that
  1074
  step had been taken, and he thought it would form a welcome portion of a most acceptable Budget.
  *MR. McCRAEcongratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon his excellent speech. It had been most clear and deliberate, and his proposals were so well arranged that no one could have any difficulty in following them. He congratulated him upon his proposals generally, which, he thought, were financially sound and had rather taken the wind out of the sails of the Opposition. He was rather led to believe that this was a dissolution Budget, and the Government were entitled to all the credit they could get out of it.
  He wished to analyse the financial position a little more closely, and he should have something to say about the proposal to increase the Sinking Fund and creating bonds for a currency of ten years. If they looked at the statement which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given them and the revenue for the year which had passed, they would see that it practically balanced the Estimates, although in its details there was a very wide divergence. There had been a serious decline in Customs and Excise, following upon a decline that took place in the year 1903–4. While he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that perhaps a great deal of this was due to the increased sobriety of the people, he thought a good deal of that shortage had been occasioned by depression in trade following the war, and to some extent it was also due to the unsettled condition of trade caused by the fiscal controversy. There had been a large deficiency in revenue from Customs and Excise, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had only been able to balance his revenue by accelerating the collection of the income-tax. He was glad to notice that since the year 1901, according to the speech which had been delivered that day, that accelerated collection had boon taking place. He thought, however, that there had been an extra screw put on this year. He did not object to this, because he believed this method of collecting the tax as near as possible within the financial year was a sound one, because it would effect a saving of interest, and future Chancellors of the Exchequer

  1075
  would have to face the full consequences of any alteration. In the past this practice had caused serious dislocation in our finances. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon reduced the income-tax by 4d. in the £ that should have meant a loss of £10,500,000, but on account of the way in which the tax was collected, he only lost the sum of £8,000,000, and the £2,500,000 had to be made good by his successor this year; and so, if this collection was carried on, it would produce an equilibrium in the income-tax imposed and recovered. The deficiency on Customs and Excise amounted to £1,250,000, and that was exactly the increased yield of the income-tax this year over the estimate. He could not help thinking that, whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to blame or not, it appeared that the amount of the shortage to be met in Customs and Excise exactly balanced that which had been raised by the accelerated collection of income-tax.
  One interesting feature was that the surplus for the year went to strengthen the balances. The expenditure for the last year had been less by £1,125,000, but he should like to ask whether this was economy in expenditure and a real saving, or only an expedient to postpone necessary expenditure which would have to be met by his successor if the right hon. Gentleman was not in office next year. In the past the present Government had taken no thought for the morrow, and he would like a little more information as to how this economy had been brought about. Coming to the present year they found that the estimated expenditure was £141,032,000. He thought this expenditure was still very excessive. This year they had had an unexpected de crease in naval expenditure, and the declarations of the Secretary of State for War had given them good reason for hoping that there would also have been a considerable decrease in the Army Estimates. Instead of that, however, there had been a slight increase in the Army Estimates. He thought that if the Secretary of State for War would devote more attention to the internal organisation of the War Office and its adminis-
  1076
  tration, he would be able to save thousands and perhaps millions of pounds upon the wastage that was going on, and of which they had had ample evidence in regard to the stores scandals. How was this expenditure to be met? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had resisted a very great temptation in not taking a penny off the income-tax. He congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon having refrained from reducing the income-tax this year. It was very important to remember that the charge for Customs and Excise was a very serious one. Customs were estimated to produce £34,050,000, and Excise £30,200,000, making a total for the current year for Customs and Excise of £64,250,000. This was £14,250,000 in excess of the year before the war when it was £50,000,000, so that in the coming year they would have an addition to the direct taxpayer's burdens notwithstanding the relief he was getting upon the tea duty. He thought that was a very serious matter and completely justified the Chancellor of the Exchequer in coming to the relief of the indirect taxpayer.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer deserved their congratulations for his proposal to increase the Sinking Fund by £1,000,000 per annum. On his side of the House they had all along maintained that the Sinking Fund was not at all sufficient, considering the large increase in the Debt occasioned by the war, and the fact that no Sinking Fund had been provided for that war debt. What had been added to the annual charge of the National Debt hardly met the interest, and nothing was set aside for Sinking Fund for its redemption. While congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what he proposed to do this year, he could not help reminding him that last year even with a deficit of over £5,000,000 on the revenue we had only reduced by our own exertions our indebtedness by £850,000. Of the total reduction of £3,850,000 there came from the Transvaal £3,000,000. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be right in his anticipations that we should have at an early date payment of the first instalment of £10,000,000. In 1903 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon, who was then Chancellor

  1077
  of the Exchequer, estimates that with what we would receive in respect of that debt, there would be a reduction in the National Debt of £40,000,000—£30,000,000 from the Transvaal Loan, £4,000,000 additional from the Transvaal for money advanced, and £6,000,000 from the Chinese War indemnity. Up to the present time of this £40,000,000 we had only received something like £7,000,000. He was glad to think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer hoped to get the first instalment of £10,000,000, because personally he thought the Transvaal was liable to make good the £30,000,000 which was promised when we guaranteed the loan of £35,000,000.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer had referred to the necessity for upholding the public credit, and pointed to our indebtedness having had a detrimental effect on that credit. Consols which used to stand at 113 were now a little over ninety. The proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to practically create a fund to wipe off £10,000,000 of the floating debt in ten years was an exceedingly good one, but he could not understand why the right hon. Gentleman did not take advantage of the present opportunity for dealing in a comprehensive way with the National Debt, considering that he could have reduced it by a large amount. There were terminable annuities falling out next year amounting in all to £3,000,000 per annum. It was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his present Budget to have dealt with those annuities, following the example of Mr. Gladstone, who in 1881 proposed to deal with the annuities that were terminating in 1885. Although they were not dealt with in that year, two years later Mr. Childers, his Chancellor of the Exchequer, brought in a National Debt Bill dealing with those annuities which were to fall out two years afterwards. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had at, present followed that example what would have been the result? Had he dealt with those falling due by creating now annuities he would have been able to have reduced the Funded Debt by £50,000,000 right off, and established an annuity to wipe off the new debt created in twenty years. There would have been a saving
  1078
  of £1,250,000 interest on the Funded Debt, and the new debt created, principal and interest, would have been wiped out in twenty years. If the right hon. Gentleman did not reduce the Funded Debt by cancelling Consols he should by some process have created a sinking fund which would have wiped off £50,000,000 of the floating debt. That would have been an exceedingly wise operation. What did Mr. Childers do in the Budget speech of 1883? He made these proposals, which were afterwards embodied in the National Debt Act. At that time the amount which by the Act of 1876 was annually applied to the reduction of debt was £28,000,000, exactly the same as that which the Chancellor of the Exchequer now proposed should be applied to that purpose. It did not seem, notwithstanding the large increase in our national wealth, that we had done very much, after all, to reduce our indebtedness. In 1883 effect was given to the proposal made by Mr. Gladstone in 1881, by cancelling Consols amounting to £40,000,000. Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time dealt with the Savings Bank account, and by a similar operation £30,000,000 of Consols were cancelled. By that operation alone Mr. Childers in 1883 cancelled £70,000,000 of Consols, with the result that the charge made in respect of these cancellations was now going to lapse next year, and therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a very great opportunity of taking advantage of the termination of these annuities either by cancelling Consols by the amount of £50,000,000, or by performing a similar operation on the very large floating debt. He commended the Chancellor of the Exchequer for this proposal because it was very different from what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol did in 1899, when he reduced the Sinking Fund by £2,000,000 a year. He thought it was very much to the credit of the right hon. Gentleman that he had not followed that very bad example.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer had also dealt with other capital liabilities of the State, and here, he was afraid, they could not offer him the same congratulation. The debt in respect of military and naval works and similar

  1079
  undertakings amounted in all to £41,664,000. Was he right in that statement?
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINassented.
  *MR. McCRAEsaid that was an increase over last year of £10,000,000 in round figures. What he would like to impress upon the Committee was that the similar charge in respect of these works in 1895 only amounted to £3,092,624. He wished to point out to the Committee that at the beginning of these things the House did not realise where they were going to lead when the Bill was brought in. Although £300,000 was only to be paid this year, on any particular item the total expenditure might be £3,000,000 or £4,000,000. The Public Accounts Committee had pointed out the serious effect this system had on our national expenditure. The fact of the matter was that a large sum was being borrowed year by year. He understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that a sum of £9,000,000 was again to be borrowed this year for similar works. If that was so it meant that the Sinking Fund was quite misleading, because we were, paying off £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 for the redemption of the old debt, and re-creating about £9,000,000 of the new debt. The consequence was, if he followed the figures correctly——
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: This is really a matter of some importance. It is necessary when considering the debt incurred for capital expenditure that it should be borne in mind that that debt has its own sinking fund—a quite abnormally high sinking fund—and that it does not trench in any way on the sinking fund of the National Debt. I know that the hon. Gentleman is aware of that.
  *MR. McCRAEsaid that was present to his mind, and the sum he had mentioned covered both sinking funds, but he did not wish to complicate his argument by referring to it. That was all very well, but they had to consider not only the debt that was incurred, but also the liability in respect of similar works which the House was already committed to. As far as he could gather, we had at least £20,000,000
  1080
  expenditure still to meet with regard to military works. That was a very serious condition of matters. It meant, of course, that our floating debt had been largely increased. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had mentioned that the floating debt now amounted to £77,500,000. With the £10,000,000 proposed to be liquidated in ten years, and the other £4,000,000 provided for, there would still be a floating debt of £63,000,000, which was far too large. It was a danger to the State, and he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have taken this opportunity of dealing in the way he had suggested in a much more comprehensive fashion with the National Debt. In conclusion, he said that the House required much greater control over expenditure, because, after all, it was expenditure which produced this indebtedness. The expenditure last year on naval and military works was a little less than the estimate, and he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer would do well if he would state the figure which he estimated for naval and military works not yet completed.
  He wished to refer to the question of last year's deficit. They had some very interesting arguments last year as to how that deficit of £5,415,000 was to be provided for. They now found that it was to be provided for by borrowed money taken from the Exchequer balances, £2,880,000, unclaimed dividends £1,000,000, and the realised surplus which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had last year £1,410,000. That meant really that the whole had been paid out of borrowed money, because if the Exchequer balances had not required to be strengthened, the surplus of last year of £1,410,000 would have gone, according to constitutional practice, to the reduction of the National Debt. There had now been a period of ten years of reckless expenditure, questionable finance, and shifting policy. He must congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer, inasmuch as he thought the right hon. Gentleman had taken a step in another direction; and he deserved credit for all that. It was, however, needless to say that the expenditure had never before been equalled, and

  1081
  that the country had no idea of its magnitude; and he thought it characterised a want of grip on the part of the Government of the national expenditure. There had been a tendency on the part of the Government, in dealing with all questions of taxation, to give to their own friends all the benefit, such as the doles in the Agricultural Rating Act, the Licensing Act, and Church schools, resulting in putting on a very large share of taxation on the indirect taxpayers. He supposed that it was in furtherance of the policy enunciated by the noble Lord the Member for Ealing, that this Government sought to relieve the rich at the expense of the poorer classes and provide for their friends, not only now when they were in office, but against the day when they were out of office. He would point out that the very difficulty of the situation in regard to our indebtedness was the Chancellor of the Exchequer's opportunity. The keystone of Mr. Gladstone's finance was to take advantage of such a situation to deal with the National Debt in a comprehensive way. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had dealt soundly with the revenue taxation and with the provision for expenditure; but the right hon. Gentleman ought to have gone a step further and done something in dealing in a comprehensive way with the National Debt; and if he did not see his way to recast our financial system, to broaden in reality the basis of taxation, so as, before the right hon. Gentleman or the Government went out of office, to have left a name for himself for having suited it to the changed conditions of our national expenditure.
  SIR EDGAR VINCENTsaid there were several points on which Members on both sides of the House had always insisted upon that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had accepted. There were several points which they had pressed which the right hon. Gentleman had not accepted; but there was one great improvement in the form of the financial statement laid before the Committee. They were now able to see in one comprehensive view the exact financial position of the year, and they could
  1082
  judge to what extent the necessary resources for the year were derived from revenue or from borrowed funds. Another point to which special attention had been given in the Budget Statement was the immense improvement in the national strength, and the restoration to a high level of the national credit. Although he could have wished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had gone further than he had done in strengthening the Sinking Fund he willingly recognised that the step he had taken was a distinct improvement.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer had insisted upon the great distinction to he made between the dead-weight debt of the country and debt arising from various Works Acts. He ventured to maintain the view that there was really no generic difference whatever. Works Loan Acts' borrowings might be put in a different category if the operations were either productive or remunerative, or if the expenditure on them had in its nature anything in the direction of finance—if, for instance, making up for lost time in the past and putting our national defences once and for all on a good footing. But he saw in any charge on a Works Act no difference from expenditure on a national asset. [An HON. MEMBER: Uganda Railway.] That represented a very small fraction of the expenditure. A military harbour appeared to him to be no more a national asset than a battleship, or very little more, which was not charged upon Loan funds but upon Budget funds. One of the reasons why he praised so highly the change in the form of accounts was that he believed when the country understood the matter they would stop altogether those Works Loans Bills. He hoped that in the coining year the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he were still in office, would be able very largely to reduce the amount of £9,000,000 which he proposed to borrow in the course of the present financial year. If one viewed the financial position according to what he believed to be the rules of strict ccounting, and if one set against the Sinking Fund the amount of new borrowing, the result of the year 1904, excluding the annuity for the repayment of the Works Loans Acts, would be an

  1083
  increase of debt of £628,000 as against an increase of the balances of £1,414,000, excluding the annuity, which amounted to the comparatively small figure of £1,000,000. The £1,000,000 did not appear clearly on the Paper, and ought to be shown with the other sinking fund. It had been said that the existence of a provision in the Votes for the repayment of borrowings under the Works Acts constituted a radical difference; but it was not as if the annuity was paid by some third party altogether independent of the country or the Treasury. It merely amounted to this, that in the annual Votes for the Army and Navy certain sums for the payment of the debt would be included in the future. The alteration was merely a promisory note drawn by a branch office and payable by the head office of a bank. It was not drawn by a third party with independent finances. In 1906, again excluding the annuity charges on the Votes which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said amounted to £1,000,000, we arrived at the fact that the new borrowing would be £9,000,000, as compared with a sinking fund, excluding the additional million, of £8,428,000. Therefore, there was a net increase of borrowing up to nearly £600,000, but even including the million we only got a net diminution of £400,000. Now his contention was, and he hoped it was not ungenerous, that the Committee should press for something even further than that. In the course of the last five years, owing to the South African War, the national indebtedness had increased by £155,000,000. He contended that in a year of fair prosperity, untroubled by warlike operations or extraordinary expenditure of any magnitude, a rich and powerful country like ours should do something more towards the reduction of indebtedness than a contribution of something under a million sterling.
  With the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the reduction of the floating debt he was in hearty agreement. He was also thoroughly in accord with him that the present moment would not be suitable for a large issue of Consols, and it was altogether out of the question to create a new form of National Loan. He did not believe any section of the
  1084
  community would view that with favour. He had heard with relief that the applications of the Treasury to the money market during the present year would not exceed £6,000,000 for the Irish land operations. They all hoped that the greatest parsimony would be exercised in the way of appeals for public subcription, and that the severity shown by the Treasury would find imitators among local bodies. If the measures proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not altogether fulfil their ideals, and if they were not absolutely heroic, he regarded them as thoroughly sound and practical. He was grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having resisted all temptation to go in for a popular ad-captandum Budget and having dealt with the situation simply on its merits, and with a view to materially strengthening and re-enforcing the national finances.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid that they had all welcomed the words which fell from the right hon. Gentleman upon the question of loans. It was practically what had been said in the previous year on both sides of the House, and was substantially that while it was legitimate on certain exceptional occasions of an urgent character to borrow money, it ought not to become a part of the continuous finance of this country. That was what it had really become for a number of years. For years past they had had biennial Naval and Military Works Bills, and what he understood the right hon. Gentleman to contemplate was a cessation of those Bills in the future. He gathered that in the future no new works would be put into a Bill, either naval or military. Of course there were a certain number of works that would have to be finished under the existing system, but after that no new works were to be put in. But one thing had bean lost sight of after Naval and Military Works Bills ceased to exist. There would be a lot of naval and military expenditure that was now borne on the Naval and Military Works Bills that would come back on to the Estimates, so they must look forward to a considerable increase in the Estimates of the future. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said he could only give a rough estimate of the amount wanted for the

  1085
  ensuing year, which he stated would be subject to revision, and, he hoped, reduction. They all joined in that hope and, seeing the right hon. Gentleman had put it at £9,000,000 and that last year the right hon. Gentleman required £10,000,000, there was every ground for the hope of reduction being realised. If, as the right hon. Gentleman stated, he did not expect to issue Exchequer Bills as he had done in previous years, it would be interesting to know how he proposed to get the money for the current Naval and Military Loans Acts in the ensuing year. The right hon. Gentleman also spoke of the £4,000,000 he was going to get from the Transvaal that he proposed to apply to the extinction of debt. Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether that was an estimate or a realised asset?
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the hon. Gentleman had misunderstood him. The £4,000,000 would be obtained partly from the sinking fund already available, and partly from the Transvaal. The repayment from the Transvaal came to £1,250,000, and it had already been completed, or if not completed, it would be completed in a few days.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid he was afraid he had misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman. He was under the impression that the right hon. Gentleman stated that he was going to obtain this from the Transvaal. Another point which he would not labour was the Transvaal Loan of £30,000,000, because if it was possible to get something from the Transvaal on that account it need not now be considered, as the possibility was of a very remote character. They all welcomed the resolution that the Debt Charge was to be increased to £28,000,000. They had deplored the diminution that had taken place in the past. It had been a matter of regret that strenuous efforts had not been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the return of peace times to embark in some scheme for the reduction of debt. He had always thought that the country would have been willing to allow a good deal of the increased taxation that was imposed during the period of the war to remain
  1086
  on its shoulders if it had been sure that by so doing it had a prospect of working off a great portion of the debt incurred for that war. Whilst they welcomed the general review the right hon. Gentleman took of the conditions of the Excise and Customs revenue, they noticed one feature the right hon. Gentleman had not referred to, which was that the falling off of the Excise and Customs seemed to have been much greater in the last quarter of the year just expired than it had been formerly.
  There was another point upon which he would like some explanation. He thought he heard the right hon. Gentleman say that the estimated return of a penny in the £ on income-tax for the ensuing year was only £2,300,000. Hitherto the estimate had always been £2,500,000.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, not the estimated return; whit I said was that the amount I should lose by taking off a penny would be £2,300,000.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid he must have misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman. He was sitting in the gallery and was afraid he must have misheard a very great deal of what the right hon. Gentleman said. Last year the right hon. Gentleman had taken £2,500,000 as the estimated yield of the income-tax, and that apparently was the high-water mark. because the income-tax tables for the past half-a-dozen years showed that the yield of a penny went on steadily increasing until about three years ago, when it touched £2,500,000. Since that time it had been stationary, and what he intended to ask was, had there been any verification of the figures since that time. He congratulated the Government on the fact that this was the first Budget for some years in which there had been any real at tempt to diminish expenditure, or at least to make a determined stand against the continuously increasing expenditure. They welcomed the fact that it had been possible to put a curb on the increase of our national expenditure, and also the fact that the Government were making use of some of their surplus for the diminution of the burden of debt which was on the shoulders of the people,

  1087
  and they hoped that this was the first step towards a more economical and reasonable system of finance.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid he thought it was perhaps more possible to express an off-hand opinion on this Budget than on almost any he had heard in this House, because it was so extremely simple. He had felt this year that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government with which he had to act must choose between bringing in a popular Budget or a sound Budget, and he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman most heartily upon bringing in a sound Budget. Whether it would become more popular in consequence of the reduction of the tea duty he would not stop to inquire. His efforts had always been directed towards sound finance, which meant mainly the extinction of debt.
  He thought the wave of sobriety which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated was passing over the country had touched His Majesty's Government. There were indications of it in various directions, but in none had it given him more satisfaction than with regard to Supplementary Estimates. From the time the present Government came into office down to the present year, the Supplementary Estimates had practically never been less than £2,000,000, and last year they actually amounted to £4,600,000. This year, however, they amounted to only £700,000, which in itself was a proof that the Government had felt that "wave of sobriety" to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. Another proof was to be found in the Paper issued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that afternoon, in which for the first time were to be found the items "Estimated payments out of revenue assigned to Local Taxation Accounts," "Estimated expenditure chargeable against Capital," "Revenue assigned to Local Taxation Accounts," and "Borrowings to meet Expenditure chargeable against Capital." The giving of those items constituted a sound departure in the Budget Statement. Personally, he wished the right hon. Gentleman had gone a little further, and set forth also the Appropriations-in-Aid as well as the
  1088
  intercepted sum for the Local Taxation Account. But too much must not be expected at once. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had entered upon the path of true accountancy; he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would pursue it to the end, and that next year there would be a further account showing what were the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid. The National Accounts ought to be both complete, true, and intelligible; at present they were neither. In order to be all three they must include on the one side all receipts whatever, whether from taxes, from intercepted taxes, or from Appropriations-in-Aid, and on the other all outgoings whatever; for our account was a receipt and issue account. Besides this there should be a Debt account, and to both ample explanations might be added. He understood that the question was to be referred to the Public Accounts Committee. That was a most proper course, and he hoped that that body would be able to make suggestions which would tend to improve the accounts and to make them at once true and intelligible. But even with the inclusion of the items to which he had referred, the statement of the national finances would still be incomplete without the items of local expenditure, now amounting to £164,000,000 a year, and local debt, which had reached the appalling total of £469,000,000. What he would like to have on Budget night or soon after was a Statement from either the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the President of the Local Government Board of the year's local expenditure and local debt. The House would then have a complete conspectus of the national finances, but without these further items it was impossible to form a proper estimate of the true financial position of the country.
  The "wave of sobriety" was apparent also in the fact that a certain amount of retrenchment was promised this year—a matter of £1,800,000. The field of retrenchment, properly worked, would yield not £1,800,000, but ten times that sum without any detriment to the public service. He deeply regretted therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman had not gone further. Still, it was a good beginning, it was a heading, for the

  1089
  first time in the history of the present Government, in the right instead of the wrong direction, and he congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon it. With regard to the estimates, however, he was afraid the mistakes made last year had never been equalled. According to the right hon. Gentleman's statement, there were mistakes of £500,000 on Customs, £750,000 on Excise, £650,000 on estate duties, and £1,250,000 on property and income-tax. It was true that these mistakes were not all one side; they were to a certain extent compensatory, but still they were all mistakes, amounting in the aggregate to over £4,000,000. That was a very unusual error for public Departments to make. With regard to the estate duties, the right hon. Gentleman had established a new system of collection which excluded the public from the office, a system which was destined to diminish and which had already diminished the receipts year by year, and it was to be hoped that when he again looked into the accounts he would see the advisability of restoring the old system. One of the mistakes to which he had referred was, he believed, the creation of the right hon. Gentleman himself, through his "hustling" of the income-tax payer. He did not sympathise with the income-tax payer for having to pay his tax at the right moment, but it would certainly be found that by the amount the right hon. Gentleman had "hustled" this year his receipts next year would be diminished, because a number of income-tax payers would, as a matter of fact, have paid two years tax in one year.
  The most serious part of the Budget was the Debt; with that the right hon. Gentleman had dealt courageously and, on the whole, satisfactorily. What the right hon. Gentleman was pleased to call the "dead-weight debt" or the Funded Debt was really the least objectionable portion. The capital liabilities, which were equally ''dead," were a much more objectionable form of debt. He had never been able to ascertain why they were called "capital liabilities," as they were no more a charge on capital than any other debt. The Funded Debt last year amounted to £762,629,000, and the
  1090
  capital liabilities to £31,868,000, or a total of £794,497,000. This year the Funded Debt had gone down to £755,072,000, but capital liabilities had gone up to £41,564,000, making a total of £796,636,000, or an increase of £2,139,000. There were, in addition, other serious liabilities, such as the contingent liabilities of the State, including the Saving Banks liability, and the guaranteed loans, in all which there had been immense recent increases. But, large as had been the increase in these and in the Funded Debt, there had been a far larger proportionate increase in the Unfunded Debt, and these irregular forms of debt were the most objectionable. Taking interest and allowances, the Unfunded Debt cost the country 3·29 per cent per annum. That was a very serious matter. The Unfunded Debt had increased by £4,000,000 during the year, but the right hon. Gentleman was going to pay off £4,000,000, partly out of his realised surplus, and partly out of payments due from the Transvaal, on which the right hon. Gentleman thought he could surely count.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Out of the New Sinking Fund, not out of the realized surplus.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid in that case he would have to find fault with the right hon. Gentleman for arresting the surplus on its way to the New Sinking Fund for the extinction of debt.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The realised surplus is the Old Sinking Fund, and one of the purposes to which that fund may be put, under the Act of 1875, is the strengthening of the balances, and I propose to apply the realised surplus to that purpose. With the New Sinking Fund and the Transvaal repayment I propose to extinguish £4,000,000 of the £14,000,000 Exchequer Bonds.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid that, in view of the statement the Chancellor of the Exchequer had just made, he had no great quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman. It would be extremely improper to apply the surplus through the balances to purposes of expenditure, but since it was going to reduce the Unfunded

  1091
  Debt, that was one of the most proper uses to which it could be put.
  Then the right hon. Gentleman had made a provision of a somewhat novel character to pay off £10,000,000 of Unfunded Debt, and this was one of the most important features of the Budget. It was an entirely new order of provision, and seemed to be of the same nature as was sometimes made for the payment of Funded Debt by means of terminable annuities. This £10,000,000 would extinguish itself one-tenth in each year, and therefore more quickly than the ordinary terminable annuities. They were making a provision for the extinction of the Unfunded Debt under circumstances which absolutely secured that that particular sinking fund, which the £10,000,000 carried, could not be dealt with by any Chancellor of the Exchequer in the future, however nefarious he might be. He thought, while avowing that he did not yet profess completely to understand the full nature of the new proposals or how the £10,000,000 was to be issued, that was satisfactory. There was one other point which he wished to suggest. As the right hon. Gentleman had instituted quite a new method of dealing with the Unfunded Debt, he would suggest to him that he should consider the revival of the Exchequer Bill, which was formerly used with great advantage not only to the Exchequer itself but also to the outside public. At the present time they had no Exchequer Bill, and it had become extinct. Many of them had long advocated an increase in the fixed permanent charge, and he attached more importance to that increase which was now to be effected, making a permanent addition to the fixed charge of £1,000,000, and thus raising the charge itself to £28,000,000, than to any other feature in the Budget. His belief was that the House had now so roused itself and that the country had become so fully aware of the importance of guarding the Sinking Fund, that he did not think any future Chancellor of the Exchequer would be allowed to tamper with that charge. The addition of £1,000,000 to the fixed charge was an act of courage and propriety and was the soundest finance.
  1092
  With regard to the reduction of the tea duty, he hoped that it would be popular, although he did not think it would have been so popular as a reduction of the income-tax. For his own part, he would as soon see the reduction made in the tea duty as upon the income-tax. This proposal gave an advantage of £1,500,000 to the drinkers of tea, and he took this action on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said that it would give relief to every household in the Kingdom, as a proof that he at least did not believe that the foreigner paid that money, but that it was paid by the consumers of tea in this country. It was a most satisfactory Budget, and he congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon having resisted the temptation of making his office a means of acquiring popularity for the Government, and upon having instituted a system of very sound and very wholesome finance.
  *MR. ASHTONcongratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the addition he had made to the Sinking Fund. He did not, however, like the way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to deal with the floating debt. He entirely agreed that that debt was a great deal too large, but his dislike to it was more in regard to the formation of another form of debt. They had sufficient forms of debt already, and if he could have merged this new proposal into a debt which already existed it would have bean much better than the creation of a new form of debt. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not creating Exchequer Bonds but a terminable annuity which might be drawn at anytime. That was a novelty, and it did not get rid of one very great disadvantage, which was that it remained practically part of the floating debt that could not be taken up by the ordinary investor. It was perfectly true that they were tying up debt for a certain time, but if it was to be drawn at any time it would not be the kind of investment which ordinary people cared for, and it would not go into the hands of the ordinary investor, but would be taken up like the rest of the floating debt, principally in the city of London, depressing the money market there, and

  1093
  thereby raising the rate of interest against the interests of the whole community.
  He was very glad that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had seen his way to take twopence off tea. He came down to the House that day rather expecting that it would be necessary for him to denounce the right hon. Gentleman for relieving the direct taxpayer instead of the indirect taxpayer. He noticed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he did not consider that the income-tax should be left in time of peace at 1s. in the £. At the same time he did not think that indirect taxation ought to be left at the height it was at present in time of peace. The direct taxpayers had benefited to the extent of £5,000,000 not long ago, and while the indirect taxpayers were still charged £4,500,000 since the war taxation more than the direct taxpayers, they were still in the debt of the country, and indirect taxes even beyond those upon tea ought to be taken off before the income-tax was reduced. He admitted that that was not the popular view in the House, bat he believed that it was sound, and it was only fair and just to the poorer classes of the community. It would also be in the general interests of the country, because he was sure that the amount of indirect taxation, more especially that portion of it upon food, was at present depressing the whole trade of the country, and in his opinion it was the main cause of trade depression at the present moment.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer had pointed out that Customs were £500,000 less, and Excise £750,000 less. He did not think there was any surer proof that the trade of the country was bad than these figures. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that the reduction in Excise was mainly owing to the more temperate habits of the people of this country, but he was afraid that this was rather an exaggeration, and he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer would find in the coming year that the amount of liquor consumed would increase again. At the present moment he thought that this decrease was a sign of bad trade. Undoubtedly the fiscal controversy had produced a certain amount of bad trade, although he believed that the
  1094
  people were beginning to regain confidence. The present high rate of interest upon money was detrimental to trade both mercantile and industrial, and this again brought them back to the main reason for the bad home trade, namely, the very heavy taxation upon the country. They could not put 4d. upon the income-tax, increase the sugar duty, place a duty upon coal, and corn, and increase the duties on beer, spirits, tobacco, and tea without seriously interfering with the prosperity of the people. The fact was that at the present time people had not got so much money to spend, and therefore they could not buy the articles they required, and trade suffered in consequence in all directions. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave them some figures to show how the wealth of the country had increased at a greater rate than the expenditure. He took forty years from 1864 to 1904, and he stated that whilst in the year 1864–5 the national income was £700,000,000, in 1904 it had risen to £1,750,000,000 or 150 per cent. He further stated that the expenditure in the same period had only risen by 125 per cent., snowing that the wealth of the country had grown more rapidly than the expenditure. Although the Chancellor of the Exchequer was no doubt right in those figures, he did not think he would have got so satisfactory a result if he had taken the period before the war. He had been reading an article by Lord Welby which showed that up to that time the wealth of the country had been increasing at a greater ratio than the population, and showing that since the war the taxable capacity of the people had almost ceased to have an increasing ratio at all. The people were practically being taxed up to the point where the fertility of the resources of the country had almost ceased to increase. Lord Welby took the period from 1894–5 and 1897–8, and he pointed out that in the three years just before the war the natural increase of the taxes, making allowance for all new taxation, was £8,500,000, whilst the increase of population was 1 per cent., and therefore this would only have been something under £3,000,000 at the same rate. Then he took the last seven years and he found that the natural increase in the growth of taxation was £7,000,000 or £1,000,000 a

  1095
  year, but the natural increase in ratio to the growth of population would have been only £6,000,000, so the net result had only been an increase of £100,000, while it had been £2,000,000 in the previous period. The taxable capacity of the people had ceased to be fertile and had ceased to grow, and he believed that that was owing to the vast taxation which the war had necessitated.
  He was very glad to hear what had been said about capital expenditure, and there was no doubt that the attention of the country was being directed to this question. This was most important, because hitherto the expenditure had increased very much in this direction, and the growth in the last fifteen years had been portentous. They had spent £52,000,000 upon these loans, and the worst of it was that the sinking fund and the interest that had accrued had not been paid out of the Consolidated Fund, but had been buried away in the Estimates, and this fact had not been fully recognised by the public. In the past, Parliament had lost control over this expenditure, and the Public Accounts Committee had condemned by Resolution the growth of this system. This was getting a very serious matter indeed. Obviously when these Estimates were not laid before Parliament there was great extravagance on the part of officials. It might be said that these works were all of a permanent character, and that it was not fair to charge the whole on the present taxpayers. It was a great deal more unfair to charge it on the future. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that the sinking funds were very severe, and that the debt was being rapidly paid off. The hon. Member said he had occasion to apply to the Secretary to the Treasury the other day for information, and he asked what sinking fund there was in respect of the Pacific Cable. He was informed that the Pacific Cable loan annuities were running for fifty years. He did not think there was a cable fifty years in existence. His impression was that the first American cable which was laid had not been used for some years, and it was impossible to conceive that a cable should last for fifty years. The claim put forward that it was sound finance to
  1096
  set up these annuities to reduce the debt in a short period was not borne out by the annuities of the Pacific Cable. It was said that this was exceptional expenditure. If it was exceptional something could be said for it, but so far from its being exceptional it had been growing year by year. These items ought year by year to come on the Estimates.
  SIK GEORGE BARTLEYsaid it seemed to him that this Budget marked a new departure, and the House might congratulate itself. He had always advocated that we should do much more than we were doing to pay off debt. It seemed to him that a nation such as this with its revenue of 1,700 or 1,800 millions a year did not spend much on the reduction of debt. He thought we should increase the permanent sinking fund, and he was delighted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been able to resist the temptation to secure popularity by a greater reduction of taxation and had devoted a large part of his surplus to the reduction of the stupendous debt we now owed. He did not mind telling the right hon. Gentleman candidly that he should have preferred if he had applied the whole of the surplus to paying off debt. He should have preferred if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not reduced the duty on tea. It had to be remembered that we were living in serious times. He did not agree with the hon. Member for the Luton Division that the taxable power of the nation was very nearly at an end in many directions. This nation, though highly taxed, was not so highly taxed as many European countries. It seemed to him, considering that our Imperial and local taxation was going up by such leaps and bounds, our children or grandchildren would enormously suffer for it. He thought, therefore, the one and only practical way of reducing expenditure was to increase the Sinking Fund to pay off the Debt. It might seem rather an anomaly to increase the Sinking Fund to pay off debt. His idea, of course, was that the real cause of our increased expenditure was the House of Commons itself. There was no doubt whatever that they were continually demanding increased expenditure on everything. Hon Members

  1097
  on one side or the other had each a particular fancy, and advocated an extension of expenditure in that respect. He was delighted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been bold enough to give £1,000,000 more to the repayment of this debt. Although the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done a good work, after all we were only setting aside the same amount as Sir Stafford Northcote did when he first instituted the fund. Consols at that time paid a higher rate of interest than now. While he was extremely glad that this was being done, he would urge the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether our expenditure had not so largely increased that something more even should not be done now to repay the Debt. When one came to think of it £10,000,000 a year was not, after all, a very large sum to set aside for paying off our debt. The reduction of debt seemed to him to be a most important preparation for the future. It would tend to the improvement of the money market and the position of the finances of this country.
  There was nothing which, in his opinion, would have a greater effect on the money market than the step the right hon. Gentleman had taken. During the past ten years an enormous increase in the expenditure of the country had taken place. He would not discuss why the war took place; the fact remained that, owing to the large amount of debt which had been repaid, we were able to raise £100,000,000 for that war without much fear of the effect of it, and without feeling the pressure at the moment. Therefore, we were practically bound, considering that we got the benefit of the transaction, to go on increasing the repayment of the Debt in proportion to the wealth and development of the country. The country had increased in riches to an enormous extent. There was, indeed, a great amount of poverty, but when they looked at the condition of the income-tax which, after all, was one of the best tests there was of national progress, there was no doubt whatever, that the wealth of the country during the past fifty years had enormously increased. During the next twenty or thirty years we might hope for peace throughout the world owing to the awful example of the war
  1098
  which was now going on, and that was one reason why we should make a great effort to reduce the Debt.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to the subject of the taxes on alcohol, and pointed out that there had been a considerable reduction. Nobody would rejoice more than himself if this reduction were brought about by an improvement in the condition of the people through a desire not to drink alcohol to the extent they did. He did not wish to be pessimistic. It was probable that part of the reduction was due to that cause, but he could not think that it was to a very great extent a matter they could congratulate themselves upon at present. Statistics showed that even now we spent very nearly £20 a family on alcohol per annum. That was a very large expenditure, although it was less than it used to be. He had no hesitation in saying that a nation that could spend within a few pence of £20 a family per annum on alcohol could afford to pay off a good deal more than £10,000,000 a year of debt. He should be glad if by any possible means they could divert a good deal of this money to the payment of debt. He was not a fanatic on the temperance question, but it could hardly be said that the people were overtaxed when they voluntarily took upon themselves this enormous incubus. The people would be healthier and better off if they drank less. He understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer's position and there was a great deal to be said for it. Although twopence per pound was a nice reduction on the tea duty, he would point out that as the poorer classes bought tea by the ounce and half-ounce they would not get much benefit out of the reduction. He was convinced that these remissions of taxes did not reach the consumer who was in a small way He thought the tea dealer and the great flourishing companies which in the past had been making large sums would continue to make larger sums. Those who bought by the pound would get a benefit, but the buyers of ounces and half ounces would not get very much benefit. What happened in the case of the reduction of the tobacco duty would be repeated. Those who bought tobacco

  1099
  by the ounce and half-ounce got no benefit at all.
  He thought the right hon. Gentleman was not fair in his reference to the difference in relief to the direct and indirect taxpayer. It was not unreasonable to say that the direct taxpayer had received greater benefit than the indirect. It must be borne in mind that the death duties might be called a direct payment because they came from the descendants of those who left estates. There was no doubt that the direct taxpayer did pay an enormous sum for taxation. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should remember that the income-tax was not a rich man's tax. There was a popular delusion that it was a rich man's tax. No doubt many of those who paid the tax were rich, but the great burden of the tax fell upon the classes who were the most heavily taxed in the country. These people paid their full share of indirect taxes, and in addition paid a very large proportion of the direct taxation, and especially the income-tax. It must be remembered also that they paid a very large proportion of the death duties. It was true that a large portion of the death duties came from millionaires, and no doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer regretted that he had not more of them this year. But, after all, the great bulk of the death duties came from the smaller estates which were distributed among small people. The result was that those who received small legacies of £2,000 or £3 000, if the matter was worked out on the annuity system, would be found to be paying considerably on receiving these estates. He thought himself that the income-tax payers in having to pay 1s. in the £ were taxed extremely high. It was an exorbitant rate which twenty, thirty, or forty years ago would never have been dreamt of. This enormous tax was due to the general spirit which prevailed that the State should do so many things more now than in former times. They were running to a great extreme, and demanding from the State many things they ought not to demand. He had always been an advocate of individual effort and self-reliance, and he believed that the many things which were now being done at the expense of the state were tending rather to take away
  1100
  the self-reliance of the people than to encourage them to do what they ought to do for themselves.
  On the question of the floating debt he fully agreed with what had been said. He regarded this debt as a great danger to the community. It had caused a great deal of trouble in the money market and in the business world. It was a thing which ought never to have been allowed to grow as it had done. He was one of those who believed that before very long we should get the first instalment of £10,000,000 from the Transvaal. When received, he hoped it would go at once to the reduction of the floating debt. Although the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham was over sanguine as to the date when it would be paid, the hon. Member was satisfied that it would be paid. He was delighted that an effort had been made in the direction of the payment of debt because he believed nothing would strengthen this country more in the eyes of the world than the reduction of our debt. A wise Chancellor of the Exchequer did not look for popularity in taking off taxes, but tried to do the best he could for the country by devoting a large sum to the getting rid of debt which, if the day should come when we should not be so well off, would be a heavy millstone hanging round our necks.
  *SIR WILLIAM HOLLANDsaid the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to have taken the line of least resistance. He noticed that when the details of the Budget were being unfolded there were several "old hands" within these four walls; and he was not sure that any of these "old hands" could have done better in the circumstances than the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. Indeed, some of his proposals seemed to have been devised by an "old hand.'' No doubt the strengthening of the Sinking Fund would improve the credit of the Government in the City, and the reduction of the duty on tea, which was so largely consumed as an article of food by the poor, did in effect disarm criticism very largely from the Opposition side of the House. That reduction was not a very substantial one in itself—amounting to

  1101
  only £1,500,000, but they had to be thankful for comparatively very small mercies. It might be described as a mercy of microscopic dimensions but when they recalled the fact that the tea duty and the sugar duty were war taxes they had a right to expect, now that the war was over, there should be a reduction in these duties. He hoped they would be removed before long, and that the coal duty, which was handicapping a very important trade of the country, would also be removed. The coal tax, it was agreed, was a daily, hourly, handicap to a very important trade in the country, and some who said when the tax was introduced that the coal supply of this country would not last very long, must have had their fears allayed by the Report of the Royal Commission, and therefore they might now reasonably expect the support of those hon. Members in demanding the early repeal of the coal tax. If it could be shown that employment had diminished in consequence of that tax, its removal could not be a matter of indifference to an enlightened and sympathetic Government. Indeed, he knew that the Government were interested in removing hindrances to the employment of the people, or they would not have agreed to the appointment of the Industrial Alcohol Committee. The Report of that Committee was on the point of being presented, and although it was not open to him to say anything about its details, yet as a member of the Committee he could say that the Committee was animated in its preparation by a sincere desire to remove shackles from industry where they could be proved to exist.
  He was glad to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that things, on the whole, had turned out better last year than they expected at the beginning of the year. That proved that trade had not been so bad as had been contended on so many platforms. He expected that the Budget would be criticised, not so much because of the methods proposed for raising money as because of the large amounts contemplated to be raised. Although they had paid more than ever they still owed more than ever. It almost seemed as if they had been paying twice over. It was like a man who had been drinking whiskey and wanted another glass; and the
  1102
  publican said his customer might have another glass if he paid for the last. "But," said the toper to the publican, "have you paid for it yourself?" "Yes," replied the publican. "Well," answered the toper, "there, is no need to pay for the same thing twice over." This country had been paying or would have to pay not only twice, but many times over in the shape of extra taxation or accumulated indebtedness. It was needless to say that our great National Debts was a heavy burden on the nation. The United States, simultaneously with a great increase of wealth, had bean substantially reducing their national debt; whereas ours had been growing all the while. Of two rival nations, if one added to its burdens by piling up debt and another diminished its burdens by paying off debt, it was easy to see, other things being equal, which one would come out victor in the end. They had heard a great deal about reduction of armaments. They prided themselves, and very justly, on their improved foreign relations at the present time; and on the Anglo-French Agreement. He hoped matters would not end there; but that the same statesmanship which had concluded that and other agreements would render a further service to humanity by inducing the leading nations to reduce pro rata their armaments. If that could be accomplished, it was clear that the safety of our Empire would not be imperilled in any way, for it would remain relatively the same, while the comfort and happiness of our people would, owing to their diminished burdens, be enormously increased.
  *SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid he had heard nineteen Budgets, but never one which had been received with such approval as that just introduced by his right hon. friend. He must congratulate the right, hon. Gentleman very much on his having had the courage to reduce the tea duty by one-fourth. He looked upon that reduction with special pleasure. It would encourage production of tea almost entirely within the British Empire, because the tendency more and more was to consume British-grown rather than China tea. Therefore, it would be received with as much favour in India

  1103
  as in this country. He wished to draw attention to the splendid results of the investment in 1875, by this country, in Suez Canal shares. We held 176,602 shares and Lord Beaconsfield paid for them £22 15s. per share, and they were now worth £185. In other words, that for which we paid £4,000,000 was now worth nearly £33,000,000 sterling, on which we were receiving £1,040,000 a year or 26 per cent. How was that large dividend earned? Mainly by British ships. Of the forty principal steamship companies whose vessels made passages through the canal, all but fifteen were British; and of the 11,000,000 tons of shipping using the Canal no less than 6,500,000 were British. He wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he did not consider that some part of the enormous dividend of 26 per cent., or had been, which reimbursed three times over the original investment, should not be devoted to lightening the burden on the ships which earned the income? He understood that it had been accepted some time ago that the Canal dividend should not exceed 25 per cent., and that all profit over that should go to the benefit of the shipping using the canal. The Suez Canal Company conducted the business most admirably. They had reduced the time of passage to an average of seventeen hours, and had increased the pilots and the passage accommodation. But it was a sore point with British shipowners that the Canal rules provided for the inclusion in the taxable tonnage of a ship all spaces available for the carriage of cargo, stores, or passengers, irrespective of the fact whether such were actually carried on any particular voyage. Although the British Government was represented by three directors, and the British shipowners by seven directors, there was great difficulty in reducing the tax on deck erections and the ordinary tax of 8 francs per ton. The income of the canal was no less than £4,500,000 last year, and the working expenses only 25 per cent., and he thought that part of the 26 per cent, dividend received by the British public should go to the relief of the shipowners using the Canal. It was perfectly easy to do it if some of the dividend were applied to relieve some of the charges which pressed so heavily upon British shipping, such as the light
  1104
  dues. It would be a very great advantage to the British seafaring community, and would only be a legitimate return for the enormous sums earned for the nation by the British traffic through the canal. He also thought something should be done to increase the voting power of this country in the affairs of the canal. We owned 176,000 shares, which was about two-fifths of the whole, and we had ten directors on the board out of thirty-two, but we only had a voting power of 250 shares, which was far less than we were entitled to.
  MR. WHITTAKERsaid he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on his Budget, not because it was a satisfactory Budget, but because it was less unsatisfactory than those of previous years. It was so far satisfactory because it showed a tendency in the right direction, and also that in so far as it had provided for the expenditure of the year it had done so in a sound and satisfactory way. He did not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer would find that the Exchequer Bonds he was going to issue for the repayment of the £10,000,000 of floating debt would be so popular with the public as he anticipated. People did not like these investments that were always being taken up. The Committee must not run away either with the idea that there was a large reduction of expenditure this year. They must remember that the expenditure last year was not up to the Estimate, and that therefore the actual reduction this year was less by that amount. Her did not agree with those who accused the right hon. Gentleman of hustling up the payment of the income-tax. It ought to be paid sooner than it was now paid. It was not now paid until the fourth quarter of the year, and the Committee owed their thanks to the right hon. Gentleman and the Inland Revenue Department for hurrying these people up. He had not an atom of sympathy with those who, having taken as it were nine months credit, complained, when the time came that they had to pay, that they were being hustled. It was unfair and unjust to those who did pay their taxes when they were due. He was sorry the right hon. Gentleman had not seen his way to

  1105
  making some difference in the income-tax charges on the various classes of income. There was no difficulty whatever in having a different rate of taxation upon incomes earned to that on incomes derived from investments. He thought incomes from investments should pay a higher rate of taxation altogether than those earned.
  They were all glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman of the more sober habits of the community and the consequent decrease in the consumption of beer and spirits, but he did not think that the lower consumption was due so much to the greater sobriety of the people as to their smaller spending capacity. He had noticed that the revenue from the consumption of liquor had always risen or fallen with the increase or decrease of trade, although we were growing more sober, as was proved by the fact that for the last thirty years when trade increased the corresponding increase of this revenue had not been so great as in the previous years. He quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the decrease in the revenue from drink this year was not due in any way to legislation, for nobody could say that the so-called temperance measure of the Government was anything of the kind. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to be a little anxious about the gap that in the future would be created in the revenue by the diminution of the consumption of liquor, but he need have no fear, because when the people, gave up wasting their money in this way they would be 15s. in the £ better off, and would provide a larger revenue in other ways. He thought at one time, when the right hon. Gentleman referred to the Gentleman who paid nothing in taxation until the tax was put upon sugar, that he had discovered a way of taxing the teetotaler who, he quite admitted, was in a favoured position, especially if he did not smoke, but he had been disappointed. The difficulty was to find something that that class did consume which other people did not that could be taxed, and that had defied the ingenuity of every Chancellor of the Exchequer up to the present time.
  He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had said nothing in condemnation of the large expenditure of the country. The
  1106
  right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol had usually treated them generally to a strong expression of his opinion as to the serious danger attending the great increase of the national expenditure which, although it might not have had the effect he desired upon the House, gave them an indication of the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequor of the day. He could not understand why, since 1897–8, there should have been an increase of £30,000,000 in our naval and military expenditure. He was glad something was going to be done to deal with the Unfunded Debt of £77,000,000, because a floating debt was a very serious burden on the trade of the country. This country had held its position in the trade of the world owing to the control of finance which enabled it to finance large foreign contracts, and now that other countries, especially Germany and the United States of America, could also put finance behind their contracts, competition was much more keen, and it became far more necessary for us to have command of that loose capital which had really been the means of securing these large contracts in the past. It was not to duties and that kind of folly to which we must look to improve our trade. Our exports were greater now than ever they had been. The weakness was at home in the too heavy expenditure of the country. That was what was diminishing the spending capacity of the people and the power of the manufacturer to keep his works up to the standard of efficiency to enable him to meet this competition. Putting in new and up-to-date machinery meant paying out capital, and the higher the rate of interest was the more difficult it was for the manufacturer to lay down new plant and machinery.
  He thought it came badly from the Government to reproach the local authorities for their expenditure, when it was borne in mind that much of that expenditure had been made on remunerative undertakings which would benefit the municipalities, and that it was the present Government and its predecessors who had encouraged the extravagance of the local authorities

  1107
  by granting them subsidies, which were always an encouragement of extravagance. The Financial Secretary had told the Committee that one reason for the expenditure had been that everyone pressed for more expenditure. That had always been so, and it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to sit like a watch-dog on the national purse and refuse to concede those demands. It was because the Government in power was weak that they had not resisted the pressure put upon them, and that the expenditure which this Budget showed so little tendency to rebuke had so enormously increased.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

  EXCHEQUER BONDS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That for the purpose of paying off any Exchequer Bonds issued under the Supplemental War Loan Acts of 1900, any sums not exceeding £10,000,000 be raised by the issue of Exchequer Bonds to be current, subject to the provisions for the redemption of the total issue, for a period of ten years, and that in each year of that period one-tenth part of the total issue of the new Bonds be drawn for repayment and redeemed by the application for the purpose of the requisite part of the new sinking fund, and that the permanent annual charge for the National Debt be increased so as to be £28,000,000. That any expenses incurred in connection with raising or paying off any such sums, and the principal of and interest on any such sums,
  1108
  be charged on the Consolidated Fund, and, as to the interest, be paid as part of the permanent annual charge for the National Debt."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he could not help thinking that the satisfaction which had been expressed at the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman was a sign of how little the House and country expected from the present occupants of the Treasury Bench. The miserable reduction of £1,500,000 on the present scale of taxation three years after the war in South Africa had ceased was the strongest possible condemnation of the capabilities of the present Government. No one would have believed that three years after the close of the war this country would have found itself still at the height of war taxation, because the 2d. which had been taken off tea was not put on for the purposes of the war, but to meet the deficit of £5,500,000 twelve months ago. Three years after the close of the war the sugar tax, a tax which bore most hardly on the poor, and most hardly upon one of the most promising trades of the country, was still in operation. The tea tax was still 50 per cent. more than it was before the war broke out. We still had the income-tax at 1s. instead of 8d., another 50 per cent. addition. The war tax on beer and spirits was still in existence, and our military and naval expenditure was £34,000,000 above the peace level. Those who were thankful for such a Budget under these circumstances must be thankful for very small mercies indeed.
  Perhaps the most interesting portion of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman was that in which he dealt with the decline of receipts from Customs and Excise. He told the Committee that from the year 1900 there had been a steady diminution from those sources. What were the facts? Everyone knew perfectly well that as soon as the froth of Jingoism disappeared the sobriety of the people increased, that as the practice of drinking went down so Liberalism went up, and it was doubly satisfactory to find that since the war fever had died down there had been considerable sobriety in drink,

  1109
  as in other ways. The right hon. Gentleman had attributed the decrease in the revenue from the consumption of liquor to the fact that the people took their pleasures in a more rational way. He should be glad to think that the right hon. Gentleman was right in attributing it to that cause. He himself had had some little experience which bore out the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, and one of the elements which tended to the decrease of the liquor traffic was no doubt the increased facilities, such as electric tramways, which carried people quickly out and away from the great centre of industry in which they earned their living. He agreed with the hon. Member for the Spen Valley that the Chancellor need have no fear of the revenue decreasing in consequence of the increase of the sobriety of the people. The revenue which that would produce in other ways would more than compensate for the present wasteful expenditure in drink.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that what some of them might venture to call "the hustling" of the income-tax payers had resulted in £800,000 being collected in excess of what was collected last year in the same time. In his opinion the right hon. Gentleman had under-estimated the amount he had got in that manner, and he would like to know upon what the right hon. Gentleman had based that estimate. He had promised a Return to the hon. Member for Edinburgh showing what amount of income-tax had been paid up to the 1st of March last year as compared with previous years. Unfortunately that statement was not to hand, otherwise they might have compared it. He would like to know when that Return would be ready.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,said he hoped it would be in the hands of Members in a very short time from now.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he hoped it would be in the hands of the Committee before the Income-tax Resolution was discussed. That was the point on which
  1110
  the discussion as to the soundness of that estimate depended. The present Budget was the most hum-drum Budget it was possible to conceive, the one special point about it was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not had the courage to remit any of the burdens which pressed most heavily on trade. The tax on tea would indirectly help in that direction, but there were two great taxes which were as great a tax upon trade as they were upon the consumer; he referred to the sugar tax and the coal tax. The great inspiring feature of Budgets of bygone years had been that Chancellors of those periods had had the courage to remit taxes which affected trade so that the removals in that direction would tend to increase trade and bring in further revenue. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer did not believe in free-trade, and, therefore, it was, perhaps, too much to expect that he would remove restrictions upon trade; although, had he had the courage to do so he would have found that the increased freedom of trade would have resulted in the future in a far greater revenue.
  The point in the Budget to which most attention would probably be given was the Resolution with regard to the floating debt. The Resolution read from the Chair ought, in his opinion, to have, been placed on the Paper of the House in order that Members might have had an opportunity of considering it before being called upon to discuss and decide it. He did not mean that it should have been placed upon the Paper before the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his statement. But inasmuch as there was no particular urgency and no sufficient demand made for its being discussed in a hurry, after twelve o'clock at night he thought the Government might see their way to allow the discussion on this Resolution to stand over until to-morrow when the Committee would see the Resolution upon the Paper. Next December £14,000,000 fell due for payment which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not meet; therefore he had come forward with a proposal to spread the repayment over a further term of ten years. That was the very thing that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol tried to guard against when he

  1111
  introduced that proposal to this House. He made those short terms for the express purpose of compelling the House, in so far as he could compel it at all, to meet its obligations. In 1900 the Member for West Bristol said—
  "I do not propose to ask for any permanent borrowing power; I desire to adhere to the principle that we should as far as possible earmark our borrowing for the purposes of this war as temporary borrowing, and that it should be automatically pointed out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day, whether I occupy the position, or it is occupied by anybody else, that it is his duty at the earliest possible time to make provision for the reduction of the loan."
  And then, when the matter came up on the further stage, he was challenged by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, the late Sir William Harcourt, who and said—
  "Assuming the borrowing, I approve his declaration that he will not make it a permanent borrowing, but will ear-mark it as temporary borrowing. That shows, as far as the circumstances admit, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has a sound financial conscience."
  Where had the sound financial conscience gone at the end of five years? Sir William Harcourt went on to say this was an excellent principle and he only hoped the Member for West Bristol might be the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day to act upon it. This, he (Mr. Whitley) thought, showed as clearly as possible that this borrowing was for the term of five years for the express purpose of making the House and the country set its house in order after the war was over, and he never imagined that they would be actually unable to meet their liabilities until December of the present year, their taxation at the full height of the war level, and be compelled to ask their creditors to be good enough to take payment for ten years at the rate of £1,000,000 per year, instead of being able to pay off that small portion of the floating debt. Let them observe what happened. By extending this first portion of the war loan over ten years they made it overlap a number of other items which would fall due within that period, and so they would be obliged to go on with one after another of those debts falling in, never able to meet them when due. This, in his
  1112
  opinion, was far from being courageous finance; it was pushing their liabilities on to the future, on to other shoulders; and it was, above all, shirking the position to which the Member for West Bristol wished to bring the House.
  He had often protested against the continuation of war expenditure. He pointed out four years ago that unless a very strong hand was kept over all the Departments, expenditure which crept in under the excuse of the war would remain as permanent expenditure and would never disappear; and he asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he could put in a separate column expenditure which had arisen out of the war, so that they should have it clearly in front of them and that their financial conscience should never be satisfied till it was cleared away. But nothing of the sort was done, and the Departments, all of them, had allowed the war standard to become a minimum standard for the future. It would require a man of a great deal more courage than the present Chancellor of the Exchequer to compel the Departments to reduce their claims on the public to a proper standard. This, he thought, was a correct description of the financial operation which was proposed in the Resolution before the House. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that he was going to raise this money at once, although it was not wanted for the particular purpose it was to be raised for till next December. In the meantime, he was going to apply it to the ordinary purposes of the revenue. No doubt he would make some saving in the amount of interest he would otherwise have to pay on borrowings on ways and means, but for the space of nine months, till next Christmas, he was actually adding £10,000,000 to the liability of the country. If we were only going to pay off our floating debt of £77,000,000 at the rate of £1,000,000 a year, where were we? Surely the amount of our floating debt ought to be got back to something like £20,000,000 or £25,000,000, which was considered to be the outside amount a few years ago. If, taking £50,000,000 as the surplus above the normal amount, we were only going to pay it off at the rate of £1,000,000 a year, he thought

  1113
  it was a very unsatisfactory state of things, and they could not look forward with satisfaction to the money market being left with this amount of national bonds or bills floating about for all that length of time.
  He would like to point out that it had a very serious effect in many ways. It raised the rate of interest for all short loans all over the country. He knew a town whose rates were actually increased 8d. or 10d. in the pound simply by the extravagance of the present Government having forced up the rate of interest in the money market to such an extent that they had to pay extravagant prices for short term loans. It also had the additional effect that contracts were deferred, works were restricted; and it had a great deal to do with the congestion of the labour market and the lack of employment. Municipal loans in nearly all cases were productive expenditure, they had assets at the back of them; and with such things as electric tramways they increased the happiness and health of the people and had the additional benefit of reducing the drinking at the same time. It was expected, when this floating debt was created, now nearly five years ago, that it would have been paid off, a large part, before now. One great resort was the £30,000,000 from the Transvaal in the form of a war contribution. He took this deferred payment to mean that the Chancellor of the Exchequer really did not hope to get this war contribution at all. If there were any reasonable prospect of it coming, and it could be devoted, as it ought to be, towards the reduction of this floating debt, there would be no need for these expediencies; and he feared it was because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already given up hope of any receipts from that source that he had been obliged to confess that he could not meet his obligations and ask that payment should be spread over the ensuing ten years. For this reason he (Mr. Whitley) was for one rather suspicious of this so-called courageous dealing with the floating debt. It meant to his mind a much slower dealing with the floating debt than they were entitled to expect. It meant a confession that we were not going to get the war contribution from the Trans-
  1114
  vaal, it meant that the Government had no hope of getting Estimates down to a reasonable figure. Their windfalls ought to have been applied to the more steady reduction of the National Debt, but they had the Chancellor of the Exchequer first of all reducing the amount applied to the Sinking Fund, then suspending the Sinking Fund altogether, and now coming and claiming credit for the restoration of the small sum of £1,000,000, which was very much less than was anticipated by his predecessor at the time the Debt was created. He was glad the Budget was not worse than it was. It might easily have been so, but he could not help voicing his protest that, three years after the conclusion of the war, we should be in a position neither to see nor anticipate from those in power any substantial reduction of our national expenditure, and that we should be obliged, to come to such small shifts even for dealing with the floating debt which had been hampering us so long.
  MR. COGHILLsaid he rejoiced that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had seen his way to take off the 2d. per pound extra on tea, because he was sure it was felt in almost every poor household throughout the length and breadth of the land. He protested against it last year, and he was very glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had seen his way to take it off. He regretted deeply that the additional Id. on the income-tax still remained. He was sure everybody felt that the time had come for the relief of the income-tax payer, and that no relief was to be given would be resented. An income-tax of Is. in the pound in times of peace was a very disturbing matter indeed, and he was afraid, if people got it into their heads that 1s. was to be a permanent tax, time would be considerable dissatisfaction with the Government in power. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he had no money to give relief, but ho might very well, out of a huge expenditure of £142,000,000, have found some direction in which he could have effected economies and found the necessary money to give relief to the income-tax payer to the extent of, at all events, 1d. in the £. When he first entered

  1115
  Parliament the expenditure was about £90,000,000, and it had gone on increasing ever since. First by moderate steps, but since the adoption of the Firs Lord's scheme for dealing with Supply, by leaps and bounds. Until the House of Commons resumed its proper control over Supply and examined every Vote expenditure would not only keep up but increase. The guillotining of Supply must be stopped, and the closure resorted to much less frequently.
  He regretted the Transvaal Government had not yet made any contribution towards the cost of the war. The "quasi legal obligation,'' as described by the Colonial Secretary, might have been turned into a proper legal obligation by a payment on account, and the payment of, say, £1,000,000, which he thought the Transvaal could very well afford, would have enabled the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a reduction in the income-tax. He could not associate himself with the views of the hon. Member for Halifax with regard to the Debt. He agreed that we ought to pay off as much debt as we incurred, but why we should be saddled with the debt of generations before he could not understand. As to posterity, it should be remembered that they would derive far more benefit from our extended colonial possessions than we should.
  He regretted the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not looked around for some new source of revenue. Personally he was in favour of the taxation of imported goods, but until the time came when that could be done it was necessary to look elsewhere. One possible source of revenue was a tax on aliens; that would probably put a stop to alien immigration. Another was the taxation of land rallies, from which he believed considerable revenue might be derived without pressing unjustly upon any class of he community. Further money could be found by retrenchment in the Civil service. He was not in favour of reduction in the Army and Navy, but in he Civil Service he believed there was a most lamentable waste of money. He wished to call attention to another great waste of public money. When he Land Bill was before the House he
  1116
  expressed his disapproval of certain financial proposals contained in it, and a great many other hon. Members shared his views upon that point. Last year the Government issued £5,000,000 of land stock at £87 per £100, and the price of the stock afterwards went up to £92, causing a loss to the Treasury upon every £100 issued of £5. That loss altogether came to about £300,000. Was that a business-like way of going about a transaction of that kind? This year another £6,000,000 of land stock was issued at £89, and the present price was £95, a difference of £6 on every hundred. Altogether there had been a loss of £900,000 on these two issues. What other Exchequer in the world could be conducted upon those lines? If they were to continue to have such a great waste of public money how could they stop their expenditure increasing? He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would say something on this point in his reply. He could not see why the right hon. Gentleman could not have waited until the money market had improved and then the Irish land stock might have been issued at a price nearer its proper value. He did not know who had got the benefit of that transaction. If any hon. Member would go through the Estimates, he would see on every page opportunities for effecting large reductions in the expenditure. He felt confident that great disappointment would be experienced amongst manufacturers when they realised that the Government had taxed the people so much that they had reached the limit of their paying capacity, and that feeling would not be removed when they read that in this Budget the Government had turned a deaf ear to the demand of the commercial classes who, notwithstanding their devotion during the war, were still called upon to pay an income-tax of 1s. in the pound.
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid that so far as the surplus was concerned this was a sound Budget. The hon. Member for West Islington said that, in disposing of this surplus, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had adopted methods of sound conservative finance, but he might have said this was a sound Liberal Budget. The Chancellor of the

  1117
  Exchequer, in choosing tea as the article to be relieved of taxation was, he imagined, only doing so because he had been convinced of the justice of this course by the arguments addressed to him last year from the Opposition side of the House, in which they pointed out the unfairness of the incidence of taxation, and he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had taken so early an opportunity of redressing to some extent this injustice. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he had not enough funds to reduce the income-tax, and at the same time to provide a sinking fund for the new bonds of £10,000,000. If he had taken £500,000 instead of £1,000,000 and spread the repayment of the bonds over twenty years, he would then have had £2,000,000 with which to reduce the income-tax.
  The Opposition were unanimously pleased that the indirect taxpayer had been the recipient of the right hon. Gentleman's bounty this year. The working classes were by far the heaviest taxed of all classes in the community. Last year he presented the Committee with a calculation upon the relative incidence of taxation upon various classes of the community, and he showed that the average working-class family, receiving an average wage and Consuming the average amount of taxed articles, was taxed to the extent of 1s. 7d. in the £ of their income. The hon. Member for South Islington said the lower ranks of the black-coated classes, such as the clerks, bore the heaviest burden, and these included the class who were earning between £200 and £500 a year. Although that was commonly supposed to be so, it was not the case, because they received large abatements. A man with £200 a year paid 1s. in the £, and a man with £500 paid the same amount in direct and indirect taxation together, whilst a man with £1,000 a year paid 1s. 2d., and with £5,000 1s. 0½d. On the other hand, a working-man's family with an income of £90 a year paid 1s. 7d. in the £. Therefore, the indirect taxpayer had an overwhelming claim to relief in preference to any other class, and he had still a claim to relief in the future. The Chancellor of the Exchequer must not think that
  1118
  those in the House who expressed the demands of the working classes would be silenced by the present relief, or that they would not continue to press the claims of those classes. The income-tax now was the same as it was in the year 1900, but the indirect taxpayer not only paid the taxes he paid then, but in addition £6,000,000 a year in taxation on sugar, £500,000 a year on tobacco, while the tea tax, after the present reduction, was still 50 per cent. more than it was before the war.
  Owing to the borrowing of £9,000,000 next year under the Military and Naval Works and other Acts, in spite of the increase in the Sinking Fund the country would be still adding fresh debts faster than it would be paying off old debts. The right hon. Gentleman said not a word about extravagance. Previous Chancellors of the Exchequer had said much as to economy, but did nothing. Perhaps the present Chancellor, although he said nothing, might prove that ho was able to do much. He hoped this might be the case. The hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent said the fault lay with the House of Commons in not exercising sufficient control over expenditure, and that this increased expenditure dated from the time when the closure was strictly enforced in Supply. He had no doubt this had much to do with it, but if there were a spirit of real independence among Members opposite, the time at the disposal of the House would be ample to enforce economy on the Government. He wondered how often the hon. Member for Stoke upon-Trent had voted against the Government in regard to the Estimates of the various Departments. A wave of sobriety seemed now to be spreading over the Government, and perhaps there might now be a tendency towards a death-bed repentance, although, if the present Government were returned again to power with a considerable majority, he was afraid their reckless career would recommence. If the illustration was not thought disrespectful—
  "When the devil was ill, the devil a saint would be,
  When the devil grew well, the devil a saint was he."
  One of the reasons for the reduction in the tea duty, he suspected, was the

  1119
  imminence of dissolution. On that side, of the House they welcomed in the main the way in which the surplus was disposed of, but if it heralded a dissolution they would welcome it still more.
  *MR. SCOTT-MONTAGUcongratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon his Budget generally and, more especially upon the fact that he had seen his way to adopt the recommendations made by the Alcohol Committee. He thought the right hon. Gentleman would recognise that the Committee had taken great care to consider the different aspects of a very difficult question. At the present time alcohol was freely used in various industries, and he believed that it would be used much more in the future. They had only to look at the enormous progress made in the use of it by Germany, France, and Switzerland in various trades in order to realise that the more extended use of alcohol in the manufactures of this country was bound to come if our manufacturers were to hold their own. It was largely used in Germany at the present moment to produce power, and heat, and light, and it was being also used for internal combustion engines. He was confident that before long the use of alcohol would supplement the use of petrol, and it would form an indigenous supply of fuel. He agreed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be well advised not to extend the use of alcohol too quickly or two widely, because it was a large source of revenue, and any tampering with it should be carefully watched. At the same time he thought that when the Report of the Committee came into the hands of Members they would see that efforts had been made to safeguard the revenue whilst affording at the same time manufacturers greater facilities in regard to it's use.
  There was another point in regard to alcohol which should not be overlooked. In time of war the use of alcohol might be invaluable as an auxiliary motive force when their supply of petrol might be curtailed. At the present time petrol was largely used in submarines for naval work and motor-cars for military purposes, and it was of the greatest importance that they should have an independent source of supply. The agri-
  1120
  cultural aspect of the question should also not be overlooked. In Germany a very large number of acres were devoted to the cultivation of the potato for the production of alcohol, and this aspect of the question ought to interest hon. Members from Ireland, because there were a great many places in Ireland which could produce potatoes for this purpose which would make very good alcohol. It was also used in the manufacture of artificial silk, in the dye trade, and for varnishes, fine chemicals, and in the manufacture of smokeless powder. He was glad that the Report of the Alcohol Committee had been accepted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because it would do a great deal to enable the manufacturers of this country to compete more successfully with foreigners. He desired to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the sympathetic way in which he had received this Report, and he hoped the result would be beneficial to those manufacturers who had suffered severely from the restrictions upon the use of alcohol in the past.
  *MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he could not join in the praises sounded from almost every part of the House in regard to the Budget statement. It was always right for nations, just as it was for individuals, to show signs of repentance for their wrong doing, but he believed there were two kinds of repentance, one genuine, and the other spurious—one that was begotten of deep conviction, and the other that was the outcome of fear. He was rather inclined to think that the statement they had heard to-day was a sort of death-bed repentance. He took the statement as the precursor of an immediate dissolution of the present Parliament. [Cries of "No!"] Some hon. Members opposite said "No," but in their case the wish was father to the thought. He desired to speak from the point of view of the indirect taxpayer. A good deal had been said by previous speakers in regard to the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in using part of the balance for the reduction of indirect taxation. That was all very well so far as it went, but when they took into consideration the amount

  1121
  of indebtedness of the State to the indirect taxpayer, surely, what they were to receive was only a very small return for that which had been taken from them. He would state the taxes that had been imposed on the indirect taxpayer for war purposes alone. Tea was increased by 4d. in the pound, tobacco 4d. in the pound, spirits 6d. per gallon, beer 1s. per barrel, sugar 4s. 2d. per hundredweight, export coal 1s. per ton, corn 1s. per quarter, producing a grand total of £18,123,000. That was £500,000 more than the direct taxpayer had been called upon to pay for war purposes. What were the changes that had since been made? Two years ago 4d. was taken off the income-tax, and it was very suggestive to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer then forgot all about the individual who paid such a large amount in the shape of indirect taxation. He admitted that last year the income-tax was increased 1d., but the net result was that the income-tax had been reduced 3d., giving relief to diret taxpayers amounting to £7,500,000 off the taxes imposed for the war. As to the indirect taxpayer the only thing up till to-day attempted to be taken off was the corn duty, giving relief to the indirect taxpayer amounting to £2,500,000. He thought he was right in saying that the indirect taxpayers of this country, notwithstanding the action of the. Chancellor of the Exchequer, were still £14,000,000 per annum worse off than they were before the South African War.
  He was one of those who considered the Chancellor of the Exchequer had that lost a magnificent opportunity. That opportunity was presented in two forms. In the first place he ought to have endeavoured to persuade the Government to do something to reduce the military expenditure of the country. In view of the tremendous growth of military expenditure during the past ten years, surely the time had come when an effort should be made to reduce the cost in that Department. Ten years ago the Army Estimates stood at £18,000,000, and to-day they were £29,000,000; ten years ago the expenditure on the Navy was £20,000,000, and to-day it was £41,000,000. Surely reductions ought to have been secured
  1122
  on these amounts, and especially in the Army Estimates. He did not think that any hon. Member would assert that we were getting value for the money we were spending on the Army to-day. The Secretary of State for War, speaking at Chelmsford recently, admitted that, notwithstanding the fact that we had doubled our Army expenditure, the Army did stand in need of mending. The hon. Member agreed with those who said that a great Army expenditure was not necessary in a country like ours. We ought to maintain an efficient Navy, but when we remembered that ten years ago our Navy expenditure was £20,000,000, and last year it was less than £41,000,000, this was an expenditure which no Government could justify. Then he found that for navy purposes France was spending £12,500,000; Russia £12,000,000; and Germany £14,000,000. These three Powers were spending £35,500,000 per annum on their navies, and surely there was a magnificent opportunity for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce our great military expenditure. Further he thought that the Government might have sought for some new sources of revenue. Last year a Bill passed its Second Reading, supported by all sections of the House, in favour of the principle of taxation of land values. That was a source of revenue which could have been taken hold of. Then there was the important question of royalties, representing large revenues, which went into private pockets. When the people realised what was proposed by the Budget he did not think the indirect taxpayers would consider that they had anything to thank the Government for. This House ought to remember there was no form of taxation that pressed so heavily upon the workers as indirect taxation. The smaller the resources of a working-class family the greater was the burden which was imposed by the taxes on such articles of daily consumption as tea sugar, and other articles of universal use in the homes of the poor, to which he had referred. In conclusion, he regretted he could not congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his second Budget Statement, for again he would say when the whole position was examined there was little the indirect taxpayer had to thank him for.
  *MR. CHARLES McARTHURsaid it appeared to him that the Budget statement partook of Liberal lines, rather than lines which commended themselves to hon. Members on his side of the House. The hon. Member for the Barnard Castle Division had shown very little appreciation of this attempt to follow Liberal policy. He had termed the course which the Government were taking in this matter "a death-bed repentance" but if the life of the Government was going to be so short as the hon. Member seemed to suppose he might have rewarded their efforts by giving them absolution instead of reminding them of having done those things they ought not to have done and left undone those things they ought to have done. It was rather from the Government side of the House that a discordant note ought to have come. He could not help feeling that the fact that no relief had been given to the income-tax payer would cause great disappointment in the country. The income-tax payer, had borne the burden and heat of the day, who had some right to complain that no relief was to be afforded to him, rather than the payer of indirect taxes. The income-tax payers were not generally wealthy people, but people of comparatively small incomes —professional men, clerks, and shopkeepers—and on them the tax pressed very heavily. Although he admired the Chancellor of the Exchequer's courage and independence in passing over the income-tax payer in order to reduce debt, and had no objection in itself to the reduction of the tea duty, he hoped the income-tax payer would be next on the list.
  There was great disappointment in the tobacco trade that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not announced his intention of removing altogether the differential tax on tobacco imposed last year. As a revenue tax the duty on strips was a complete failure. It had brought in the estimated revenue this year because, there were large stocks in bond, which could not be released until the duty was paid. But the import of strips had almost entirely ceased, only that which had already been contracted for, or that required for use in bond, having come in. The trade in stripped tobacco was killed,
  1124
  and, therefore, no revenue would accrue from the tax in future. The tax, it was true, had introduced a certain amount of employment in this country in stripping tobacco, but that employment was of a spurious character. It was not really required, for the tobacco could be much better dealt with on the other side of the Atlantic. Referring to the stamp duties, he wished once more to voice the opinion of the marine insurance community that the time had come when something should be done to reduce the stamp duties on marine insurance. The stamp duty on fire insurance was 1d. for any amount, whereas for marine insurance it was 3d. or 6d. per cent. That was felt to be a heavy burden by underwriters, and they hoped that something would be done before long to reduce it.
  MR. JOSEPH WALTONsaid that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his fair-minded statement dwelt to a considerable extent on various items of income which he expected to come into the Exchequer during the year 1905–6; but hon. Members could not but have noticed the lamentable absence on the right hon. Gentleman's part of any serious attention to the alarming growth of national expenditure, or of one single word of protest against the enormous growth in the expenditure for the naval and military services. Now, the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor the right hon. Member for West Bristol had told the Committee in one of his speeches that no one outside the War Office believed that the country got value for its money in Army expenditure, and he thought it was possible to have a reduction in that expenditure with increased efficiency. What was the position they were face to face with? Not much more than a quarter of a century ago, when the finances of the country were in the hands of a financial expert, the expenditure, all told, was £71,500,000, and to-day, in a time of peace, it was twice that amount, or £142,000,000. In addition to that, however, there were the expenditure upon naval and military works, the amounts given to Ireland, and the contributions to local taxation; and national expenditure now reached £160,000,000. Last year there was an increase of £10,500,000 which was reduced

  1125
  this year by £1,500,000, and the reduction for the coming year was something under a £1,000,000. Therefore the expenditure for the year 1905–6 was nearly £10,000,000 greater than that in 1902–3. He meant normal expenditure. The burden of this upon a country was almost incalculable, so far as its commercial prosperity was concerned. A large proportion of it was unproductive and restricted the buying power of the people who had, compared with the last ten years, £50,000,000 less wherewith to buy everything they needed—food, clothes, and the furnishing of their homes. That meant that fewer orders were given to manufacturers producing for the home market, and a large increase in the number of the unemployed.
  This alarming increase in the national expenditure required a much more serious consideration from the Committee than it had yet received. For two years past economists on both sides of the House had declared that a day ought to be given to the House to consider the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, but that day had not been allocated. That Committee had recommended that, as the national expenditure was divided into four classes, one class should be taken each year and independently examined with the view of securing a possibly considerable curtailment of expenditure in each particular class; but that recommendation had been entirely disregarded by the Government. They had been told the other day that it was too late to discuss properly national expenditure with the view of securing a reduction of it on the Budget, and that these discussions ought to take place or the Estimates. Further, they had been told that it was the neglect of the House to criticise the Estimates which caused the expenditure of the country to be greater than it otherwise might have been. But how could they discuss the Estimates when these were closured night after night, and millions were votes away without many of the Votes having been considered in the slightest degree by the House of Commons? They must conclude, therefore, that the Government were not serious, and that they did not realise the unbearable burden which this huge and inflated nations expenditure laid upon the country.
  1126
  Reference had been made to the comparison between direct and indirect taxation. When the South African War was proceeding taxation was imposed in equal amount on the direct and indirect taxpayers; but when, in 1903–4, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had ten and a half millions of a surplus, instead of remitting with it half the burden on direct and half on indirect taxpayers, he remitted four-fifths in relief of the direct taxpayers, and only one-fifth in relief of the indirect taxpayers. He congratulated the Chancellor of the Exchequer on having in his remission of taxation this year dealt much more equitably with the general body of taxpayers in the country, though there was still due to the indirect taxpayers the disproportion in the relief given in 1903–4. In 1903–4 the direct taxpayers were relieved of 4d. in the £ in income-tax, while the indirect taxpayers were only relieved to the extent of 1d. in the shape of the removal of the corn duty. As regarded the income-tax further opportunity would occur of discussing that important question—whether there ought not to be a graduated income-tax, and a differential income-tax charged on these who earned their income by their own exertions, and those who were in the enjoyment of incomes from investments, especially if they had inherited them.
  What was the position in regard to the war taxes? They had still the war tax of 2d. per 1b. on tea, still the sugar tax, and the coal tax. In regard to the coal tax, the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the Committee that the exports of coal were greater this year, so far as they had gone, than they had ever been before; and that therefore the coal tax could not be having an injurious effect on the coal trade. But what were the actual facts? Those engaged in the coal trade—coalowners, coal miners, and coal shippers—not only had to pay the other taxes levied on the community, but £2,000,000 a year in addition. No corresponding tax was imposed on any other great industry in the country; and he maintained that that was a flagrant injustice which ought to be remedied, and that there ought to be equality in the incidence of taxation.

  1127
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer, he believed, thought that the coal trade was not injured by this tax; but, nevertheless, it was a tax which specially affected all coal exported from Scotland, Northumberland, Durham, and Yorkshire. They received in consequence of the coal duty on export coal 1s. per ton less at the pit's mouth. That had naturally decreased the wages of the miners, and the continuance of this serious burden might result in the shutting down of many collieries and injury to the coal trade of this country from which not less than 4,000,000 of people derived their livelihood. He considered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should give, even in connection with this Budget, his serious consideration as to whether, by some means or other, provision could not be made for the abolition of this most unjust coal tax. There was a general view that if the Government reduced the number of the Regular Army, and the enormous expenditure on the Navy, and doubled the amount hitherto devoted to securing the efficiency of the Volunteers and Auxiliary Forces, the defensive power of the country would be greater, and the direct burden on the taxpayers would be substantially less.
  He would, like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give him his attention for one moment. He had been pointing out that they had had no word of protest from the right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, against the enormous increase in the expenditure on the Army and Navy.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I said what I had to say on that subject on another occasion. I think it is futile and idle to talk of reducing expenditure which I believe to be necessary for the security of the country.
  MR. JOSEPH WALTONsaid he was glad to have drawn that statement from the right hon. Gentleman; but they had been promised last year by the Secretary for War that there would be large reductions in the Army expenditure.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Not for this year.
  MR. JOSEPH WALTONsaid he was not aware that the Secretary for War had excluded this year.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, he did. Perhaps the hon. Member will take it from me that he did.
  MR. JOSEPH WALTONsaid he certainly accepted the right hon. Gentleman's statement that he understood the Secretary for War to exclude this year; but they were face to face with the fact that ten years ago the expenditure on the Army and Navy was only £35,000,000, whereas this year the expenditure on these services was £63,000,000, and in addition to that, there was an expenditure of £9,000,000 on naval and military works, or a total of £72,000,000. And what had they got in return for this enormously increased expenditure? An Army practically without efficient artillery, and with a rifle the merits of which were still under discussion. The fact was, we were in a state of chaos in regard to our Army; and he did think that the guardian of the public purse, even if he thought it would be futile, should have seriously protested against this enormous growth of expenditure on the Army and Navy. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol had, when that right hon. Gentleman was Chancellor of the Exchequer, uttered a warning as to the necessity for substantially reducing the expenditure on those services.
  The National Debt was in a most unsatisfactory position. On the one hand, the right hon. Gentleman had taken a step in the right direction by increasing the amount allocated to the reduction of the National Debt from £27,000,000 to £28,000,000; but he was going to borrow £9,000,000 for naval and military works, and therefore there was no reduction in the national expenditure. The fact was there was urgent need to criticise the whole financial situation of the country, not only in regard to Imperial, but also in regard to local expenditure. What was required was a national balance-sheet which would show where we stood. The national aggregate indebtedness amounted to £1,500,000,000, including local debts and debt for South Africa,

  1129
  and that in connection with the Land Act in Ireland. It was perfectly true that, as regarded local indebtedness, a great deal of it had been expended on tramways, electric lighting, waterworks, etc., which were revenue-producing undertakings; but still the fact ought not to be overlooked that the people had to pay very heavy local rates. Take the case of London. A working man had to pay for a very indifferent home a rent of 7s. 6d. per week, and that, with rates, was equal to 10 per cent, of his earnings, putting these at 25s. per week. In additional to that he had to pay another 10 per cent, of his earnings in Imperial taxation. When the question of taxation was considered from that standpoint it became a matter of life and death; so far as the working classes were concerned it meant the difference between being hard driven to secure necessary food and clothing, and living in comparative comfort. Hon. Members professed a desire to raise the standard of living among the people; they ought to begin in a practical way by grappling with this inflated national expenditure in a manner not yet attempted. It was only by facing the whole facts of the situation and realising how seriously the prosperity of the country was being crippled and hindered that they would ever get this expenditure brought within reasonable limits.
  MR. KEARLEYsaid the Chancellor of the Exchequer had attributed the falling off in Customs largely to a change in the habits of the people. He knew of no more certain barometer as to the condition of trade than the yield of Customs and Excise. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer took a low estimate for the yield in view of the fact that both he and his predecessors had been disappointed in previous years, but in spite of that low estimate the yield was £1,250,000 less than he budgeted for. That pointed unmistakably to the fact that taxation was unduly heavy and was more than the people could bear, and that they were not able to consume the amount of commodities they would have consumed if taxation had been lower. That was a serious aspect of the taxation necessitated by the enormous increase in our expenditure, and the ex-
  1130
  planation that it was to be accounted for by a change in the habits of the people would not bear a minute's investigation. The right hon. Gentleman forgot that the people who contributed the largest proportion of the revenue were those who were in receipt of weekly wages, who had just so much to spend and no more, and if by taxation or any other cause the price of the commodity was advanced they had to satisfy themselves with less or with an article of inferior quality. He hoped nobody supposed that the Budget indicated that trade was reviving. There would be no real revival in trade until there was diminished national expenditure followed as a consequence by diminished taxation.
  With regard to the tea duty he would he glad to see it restored to the figure at which it stood last year, and nobody would be more pleased than those who were engaged in planting in Ceylon and India. He was rather inclined to think that the right hon. Gentleman had made his concession not so much in the interests of the English consumer as in consequence of the strongest possible representations having been made to him by the Governments of India and Ceylon as to the detrimental effect which the unduly high taxation had had upon the industry. He knew of no trade that would stand this perpetual interference, that had become almost chronic in respect to the tea trade. Successive Chancellors of the Exchequer in the last five years had made this trade a sort of happy hunting ground when in search of revenue. There had been no I less than three alterations in five years, and these constant changes involved an enormous loss to the trade. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman or his successors would bear in mind that this interference was most detrimental to trade. The right hon. Gentleman had arranged that the remission of duty should not take place until the 1st July. Had the right hon. Gentleman considered the effect of that upon the Exchequer? He warned the right hon. Gentleman that the receipts would be very small from now to July, and at the same time it would paralyse the wholesale trade, which would practically come to a standstill, as all orders

  1131
  would be given for delivery on July 1st. It would have been far better to have adopted the old plan of making the remission come into force the very next day after the announcement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would be well if the right hon. Gentleman would endeavour to collect the opinion of the trade as to whether it would not be more beneficial—it would certainly be more beneficial to the right hon. Gentleman to allow the remission to become operative before July 1st. He would also suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should allow the preparation of tea for the wholesale trade to go on under bond in the bonded warehouses, otherwise, when July 1st came, there would be such a rush to pay duty that trade would be entirely dislocated.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I have to express my thanks to the Committee for the way in which they have received the Budget statement and the proposals I have made. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was good enough to felicitate, me for the brevity of that statement, which I believe makes "a record" even over my own performance of last year. I will endeavour not to spoil that by speaking at too great length in reply to the observations which have been made, but I owe the Committee some explanations in regard to various points which have been raised. I am glad to recognise that on all sides of the House there has been a recognition of the fact that it is our duty to take early measures to reduce the burden of the Debt, and upon the present occasion ourselves to make the necessary sacrifices for that purpose, and not leave them wholly to be borne by those who come after us. Indeed, the only criticism that has been offered is that I have not gone far enough. I rather suspect that if I had devoted more money to the same purpose—if, for instance, I had declined to propose any reduction of taxation at all, and used the whole of the surplus for the reduction of the Debt—I should only have been placing in the way of my successor a temptation which, human nature and, above all, politicians' human nature, being what it is, he would have
  1132
  been unable to resist. I think that my proposal, sufficiently large in itself, is yet of such a character that it may withstand temptations of that kind, and will not easily be open to attack by others who may feel less deeply than I do the necessity for a reduction in our outstanding liabilities. To those who think that the provision I have made is insufficient, I would venture to say one word. After all, the Sinking Fund should be judged not merely by its actual amount, though that is larger under my proposal than ever before, but by what proportion it bears to the Debt existing at the time. Judged by that standard how does my proposal appear? If hon. Members will look back over a course of years they will see that the Sinking Fund reached its heyday in 1898–99, and with the addition which I now propose it will again stand at almost as high a point. This is not a bad account to give of ourselves; and I trust that others outside will feel the same satisfaction which has been expressed in the Committee at seeing the Government take this early opportunity of increasing the provision which we are making for the repayment of the Debt.
  The Member for East Edinburgh has suggested that it was my duty to take advantage of the falling in of certain terminable annuities next year, and to apply them in the way in which other terminable annuities were applied in earlier years, in anticipation of their expiration. I am not certain that the hon. Member appreciates what would be the result of that operation. It is, of course, perfectly open to me or to my successor next year to deal with the annuities which fall in as may seem best to him at the time; and if an operation of that kind was the one which most approved itself to the Committee next year, there is no obstacle whatever raised in his path by what I have now done. The Chancellor of the Exchequer would next year be free to carry out such an operation, and why should I anticipate his decision at that time? I think there is every reason to wait for a little further experience before we decide exactly how we shall apply the money which thus becomes available. The only thing I will say for myself, and for anyone who holds my position, is that

  1133
  the money, however it might be applied, must be applied to one object, and one object only—namely, the reduction of the Debt. The mere creation of new terminable annuities will not apply a penny more to the reduction of the Debt than the application of the same money in other ways, if other ways prove desirable. It is not a question, therefore, as might have been assumed by anyone listening to the hon. Gentleman, between applying more money or less money to the reduction of debt. It is merely a question of how we apply the money which is available; and, unlike the hon. Gentleman, I prefer not to anticipate the discretion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer next year, but to leave it to him to decide in the light of the information then available to him whether he will apply it in the way which at present seems to me most useful for the purpose, or whether he will set up fresh terminable annuities such as the hon. Gentleman suggests.
  The hon. Member for East Perthshire has asked me one or two Questions, some of which I replied to in the course of my speech, and I think he will find the answer if he will be good enough to look at the report of what I said this afternoon. He asked me, as I had stated that I hoped not to be obliged to have recourse to the market for fresh borrowings on account of expenditure charged to capital account in the course of the present calendar year, how I proposed to provide for the expenditure which I myself had admitted must be met on that account. I hope that within the present calendar year the resources at the disposal of the National Debt Commissioners will be sufficient for all our purposes without any recourse to borrowings on the open market. The hon. Member further asked me why I propose to issue the new bonds at once. The question of the date of issue of any new security is a matter which must always exercise the careful consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in choosing the time for the issue he must be guided by the conditions of the market and by the prospects of better results or less good results by delaying his appeal, in the present case I think an earlier appeal to the market will be most likely to secure the most favourable terms for the nation. But there is another reason,
  1134
  as I have explained, why I desire to raise the money at an early date. Under ordinary circumstances we have to borrow largely upon Treasury Bills in the early months of the year, these Treasury Bills being repaid in the last quarter of the year. If the House approves, as I doubt not, after the debate of to-day, it will approve, of the early issue of these bonds then I shall be able to restrict these early borrowings on Treasury Bills, and shall have the use of the money arising from the now bonds until the time comes when, in the month of December, I have to pay off the now outstanding Exchequer bonds. I think those are the principal questions put to me in the course of this discussion.
  There were some points touched upon by hon. Gentlemen on the other side, who, I think expressed their intention of taking a later opportunity of developing them more fully, an opportunity such as would be afforded on the other Resolutions or upon the Budget itself. I hope they will excuse me from replying to them in detail on the present occasion. I will reserve what I have to say until we can discuss the matter more fully. But I will make a few observations on the remarks which have fallen from the hon. Member for Islington and the Member for Devonport. The hon. Member for Islington has recognised very kindly an effort I have made to meet a case put to me by a deputation which he introduced and which seemed to me on its merits a good case, which had only escaped attention hitherto because it was a small matter and those affected were few in number. I think a case of that kind deserved consideration when I had the opportunity to give relief by waiving charges of little advantage to the Exchequer and of great annoyance to trade; but on other matters I am afraid he and I are less in sympathy. He alluded to the wine duties, and, as I understood him, attributed the falling revenue wholly to the lack of a lower duty upon the wines of lesser alcoholic strength.
  MR. LOUGH: The increase of duty about four years ago.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Well, I differ from the hon. Member. I

  1135
  see the fall in revenue derived from this source with great regret. With double regret I observe that the decline in the importation of wine has affected in equal measure the imports from our own British possessions. There may come, there will come, a time when we shall be enabled to deal with this matter in other ways, and when I hope we may cultivate this trade with our Colonies more than we have hitherto done. The present decline, affecting, as it does, all classes of wine, is not due to the rate of the tax, but to the lessened purchasing power of those who consume it.
  MR. LOUGH: What is that due to?
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is due to bad trade in the last few years. The hon. Gentleman went on to allude to certain proceedings in connection with the income-tax of this year, and, if I am correctly informed, to a particular case where he suggested an unfortunate man had been driven to suicide by the pressure brought to bear upon him by the authorities.
  MR. LOUGH: The coroner's jury reported. I have a cutting from a newspaper and was asked to put a Question upon it; but I hesitated to do so, preferring rather to leave the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with it.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member must not always trust to cuttings from newspapers. If he had come to me for information on the subject, I think I should have been able to convince him that there was no truth whatever in this story. The final notice had not been served on the man, and the newspaper cutting on which the hon. Member relied led to an angry visit to the collector from a neighbour, who said that to her knowledge the man had not been served with his final notice, as she had been, and who founded on this a complaint that taxpayers were unequally treated, and that he had been let off more easily than others.
  I pause, now to answer the hon. Member for Devonport, who also dealt
  1136
  with the tea duty. I listened with interest to his remarks. I gather that the hon. Member would have preferred that I should have left the tea tax at the present rate. Instead of expressing satisfaction at the relief which it is in our power to give to the consumer of tea, he had no sympathy for the tea consumer or tea producer, but only had a lamentable tale of woe on behalf of the tea dealer, who would have to make out new price lists and issue new circulars to his customers.
  MR. KEARLEYsaid that was a gross exaggeration of what he had said. He had asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he realised what would be the effect of delaying this concession of duty until July 1st. He pointed out that it would have a very demoralising effect on the trade, and that all orders would be held up for delivery until after that date.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member is now referring to another portion of his speech on which I have not yet commented; but he also complained that the tea duties have received too much attention from Chancellors of the Exchequer, and he asks me if I realise the trouble and inconvenience to the trade.
  MR. KEARLEY: Three times in five years.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, the duty has been altered three times in five years, and the third time is the reduction which I have proposed to-day. I think the hon. Gentleman should think a little about the producer and the consumer and should not be wholly occupied with the interests of the dealer.
  MR. KEARLEYsaid that was a very unfair observation. He pointed out for the information of the right hon. Gentleman, should he be Chancellor of the Exchequer next year, that it would be well to bear in mind that these frequent alterations in the duty affecting one particular trade were very onerous, costly, and burdensome.

  1137
  He contended that was a most fair observation and ought not to subject him to the kind of hostile criticism he had received from the right hon. Gentleman.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I do not differ from that statement of the hon. Gentleman. Any change of duty is an inconvenience to the trade concerned. What I venture to suggest is that there are other considerations which must also be taken into account besides the interests of those who dealt in the dutiable article. Certainly I, and no doubt any other Chancellor of the Exchequer who succeeds me, will bear in mind the reluctance of the hon. Gentleman to receive any further alteration in the tea duty. The hon. Gentleman also calls my attention to the particular conditions surrounding the repeal of the extra twopence of duty which I have proposed in the present year. I have very carefully considered this matter, and, if he will pardon my saying so—my practical experience of the trade being much less than his—I Gentleman somewhat overrates the difficulty in which the trade may be put. I am certain that if I had proposed to repeal the duty from to-morrow there would have been an outcry from every man who held duty-paid stock at the present time. I must, in common fairness, give to traders with duty-paid stocks a reasonable time for clearing those stocks; and, whatever time be fixed, it is clear that during the last few weeks the higher duty is in force duty-paid stocks will in every case be reduced to a minimum. I do not, I confess, understand why it should cause more inconvenience, provided traders know the date on which the duty will be reduced, than it would if it took effect a month or six weeks earlier.
  There is another side of this matter to which I must beg the attention of the Committee, and which is of real importance.
  1138
  In recent years every trade in a dutiable article has become extraordinarily sensitive about Budget time. Whenever there is an expectation of an increase in the duty there is great forestalment of clearings. This is a thing we cannot provide against, but it has a disturbing influence on the proportion of the revenue between the two years. And, equally, if any reduction of duty is anticipated, there is apt to be a similar disturbance, since dutiable goods are held back in an abnormal way; and if the trades affected get to understand that a remission of duty will take place immediately after the Budget, which is brought in as near as possible to the beginning of the financial year, the result may be that the revenue of the preceding year would be very seriously upset, and actually it may amount to this, that remissions which under the normal payment of duty would be possible may be rendered impossible. If hon. Gentlemen will consider these matters, they will see that, apart from questions affecting the trade, there is a very serious question affecting the revenue to which for the time being, as guardian of our national finances, I feel I must attach great weight. I believe that if I had not published a letter in answer to a correspondent, in which I pointed out that the tea duty was enacted by Parliament until July 1st, and if I had not expressed my own intention—and my belief that any who followed me would pursue the same course—not to remit such a duty before that date under any circumstances, I do not know whether the surplus of last year would have been turned into a deficit; but I am quite certain that the anticipations of my last year's Budget would have been still further disturbed, and we should not have had the balance at the end of the year on which we are able to congratulate ourselves on this occasion. I admit that there would have been in past times much greater inconvenience in

  1139
  my proposal in the special circumstances of the tea trade than exist to-day.
  I do not think the hon. Member for Devonport quite understood the scope of the concession which I made last year in regard to blending in bonded warehouses. Owing to changes in the tea trade which I need not describe, it has become necessary for traders to have a larger stock available for handling than was formerly the case; but I believe I have fairly met all reasonable claims that could be made in that respect by the concession I made last year, and that wholesale dealers will find no difficulty in preparing for the great demand, which will undoubtedly arise immediately the lower duty comes into force, under the new conditions which I extended to their trade last year. The hon. Member for Devonport said that in proposing this reduction on tea the Government were more influenced by representations from the Indian and Ceylon Governments than by regard for the consumer. I am not ashamed to say that I attached great weight to the representations of the Indian and Ceylon Governments on this subject. As I said earlier in the day, I chose tea last year as an article of increased taxation with avowed reluctance. Again and again I admitted that I had merely chosen it as the lesser evil. In the discussion it was stated that it was improbable that any portion of the duty would be paid by the foreigner. I do not think it has been paid by the foreigner; but some portion of it has fallen on our fellow-subjects in India and Ceylon; and if they, too, with the consumer receive relief under the proposal I am making, this is not to my mind a subject for regret, but an additional reason for making that proposal.
  1140
  I have attempted in the discussion today to avoid anything of a controversial character. I suppose we may, perhaps, come to that later, though I am hopeful that, having regard to the general approval which has been expressed of the Budget proposals, there will not be so much of it as there has been in some previous years.
  MR. LOUGHasked when the small changes with regard to the reduction of the ⅛per cent, would come into operation.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: These changes cannot come into operation until the Finance Act passes. I appeal to the Committee, as they have treated the Budget statement on the whole in a non-controversial spirit, to allow a decision to be now taken on the first Resolution. I understand that by agreement between the two sides of the House, following a discussion between the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister, the other annual Resolutions—the merely repeating Resolutions—are to be taken to-night, and the serious Resolutions taken later—the tea duty on Tuesday and the income-tax on Wednesday, and that on the tea duty Resolution to-morrow, with your permission, Sir, a general discussion will be again allowed if hon. Gentlemen desire. In the circumstances I think I should only be wasting the time of the Committee if at this period I attempted to take up the time of the Committee further by entering into more detail with regard to these proposals. I thank them for the kindness they have shown to me, and I make this appeal for a still further exercise of their indulgence.
  *MR. FIELDsaid he took it this probably was the most important Resolution they could pass. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had not given the House any idea as to what would take place with regard to the expenditure of the, future. He did not give any hope of reducing expenses or of enlarging the area of taxation. As an Irish Member he thought they were entitled to some expression from the right hon. Gentleman with respect to the over-taxation of Ireland, which had been steadily increased since the verdict of the Financial Relations Committee declared they were over-taxed by £2,750,000 sterling per annum—this increase to almost £4,000,000 sterling was mainly the result of the Boer War. They were all aware that the Transvaal War was practically a Stock Exchange War. It was manipulated by financiers and gamblers, in options, shares, and warrants. To protect the public, in his opinion, all such gambling, especially in respect to metals, commodities and food stuffs, should be prohibited, or at least controlled, as they were in other more sensibly governed countries, where financiers had not such influence in operating the Government. The House understood that these mineowners were to provide £30,000,000, and, as none of this had been paid, and as no definite promise had been made, before the Budget was introduced he asked whether a reasonable import duty would be imposed on diamonds. The right hon. Gentleman said the secrets of the Budget were regarded as sacred, and he could not give him any information. He wanted the information now. He thought it was reasonable that such a duty should be put on diamonds imported into the three
  1142
  kingdoms by those who engineered the country into an expensive war.
  Another subject the right hon. Gentleman had passed over which, demanded attention was that of land values. Parliament had expressed its opinion very clearly on this question, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have carried out its behest. This was not a good but a very commonplace Budget. There was nothing original about it. The right hon. Gentleman was afraid to venture into new regions. There ought to be a tax on motor-cars, which wore undoubtedly, like diamonds, a luxury, and were owned by people who could afford to pay. The House had lost nearly all control over the taxes; the power over the public purse had to a large extent passed from private Members. When passing Supply the closure was applied, and the result was that democratic Members had limited opportunity of criticising the Estimates. This country was not paying its way. Their expenditure had swelled to an enormous degree, over-taxation was undoubtedly lessening the power of purchase on the part of the workers; and, the present system should be superseded by one of greater economy and more efficiency. These great questions of National Taxation were practically managed by the permanent officials. They had the same indigested kind of finance annually put forward as the bill of fare for the House to swallow whether they had an appetite for it or not. He was glad the tax on tea had been reduced, but an effort ought to be made to endeavour to further reduce the indirect taxation, and obtain more taxes from those better able to pay it than the working classes. They who represented a

  1143
  democratic community were entitled to be heard in this matter, because Ireland was over-taxed against the expressed terms of the Unions and above her taxable capacity; now they had to pay expenses of a war of which they disapproved, and from which they received no benefit. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the points he had raised. He reminded him that in olden times all the taxation of the country came from the land. Then it was shifted to the consumer, and now they had got into a more complex system, they ought to have half of the taxation direct and half indirect, the tremendous revenues derivable from royalties should be taxed. He trusted that the House would, in future, take more interest in these Budgets, because the finances of the country was one of the principal things they had to consider; but, unfortunately, the House had almost lost the power of criticism regarding fiscal arrangements upon which the prosperity and progress of the community so largely depended.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he wanted to be clear about their position with regard to the Resolutions of to-morrow and Wednesday. He understood that the arrangement was that they should be allowed to discuss the Budget as a whole with the Resolution of to-morrow, which would be tea, and that on Wednesday the income-tax Resolution would be discussed. The Member for East Edinburgh some time ago asked the right hon. Gentleman to lay on the table a Return showing for various years the collection of the income-tax in various parts of the Kingdom. This had connection with a point the right hon. Gentleman
  1144
  raised in his Budget speech as to the extra collection which had taken place this year. He believed this Return had been laid, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could say whether it would be in the hands of hon. Members by Wednesday.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he understood that the arrangements made were that they should have the tea duty first to-morrow, and that on the tea duty, with the Chairman's permission, they should continue the general discussion if hon. Gentlemen so desired; that on Wednesday they should take the Income-tax Resolution, and that to-night they should take the other annual Resolutions unchallenged.
  MR. FIELD: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the suggestions that I have made to him?
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will excuse ma from saying more at the present moment than that I think there is not one of the suggestions he has made to which I have not given careful consideration.
  MR. McKENNA: Is there any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should take the other Resolutions to-night?
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, if we are to finish the Resolutions in Committee stage by Wednesday. It is an arrangement made between the two sides. I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not intend to question any arrangement of that kind. The arrangement was

  1145
  that we should finish this stage of the Budget Resolutions by Wednesday, and that for the convenience of the House the tea duty should be the first for discussion to-morrow, that the Income-tax Resolution should be the first on Wednesday, and that we should take the other Resolutions, which are the annual Resolutions, unchallenged. As regards the particular Return, I cannot say definitely that it will be in the hands of hon. Members on Wednesday, but I will get the figures by that time. I am not quite certain whether the figures are actually ascertained yet; I rather think the Return is in the hands of the printer.
  MR. McCRAE: The Return was laid bout ten days ago, and I think it is important for Wednesday's debate that we should have the figures.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I will give them to the Committee if I can Of course, the Return being laid does not mean the Return is prepared.
  MR. McKENNA: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the arrangement goes beyond having all the Resolutions completed in Committee by Wednesday next.
  *MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I am informed by my right hon. friend that the agreement was that all Resolutions in Committee stage should be finished by Wednesday and that the Resolutions, with the exception of those of the tea duty and the income-tax, should be concluded to-night.
  *MR. SHACKLETONsaid he wanted to say a word
  1146
  or two before they passed the Resolution before them. First of all, he would like to refer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement respecting the reduction of receipts for intoxicants consumed in this country. As a representative of workmen he could assure him that no one was better pleased than they were, and they hoped and believed that the reasons he had given for this reduction were genuine, that it was due to a change in the habits of the people. Some of them could remember the time when holidays were spent among roundabouts and that sort of thing, and they were pleased to know people could now get away to the seaside, taking advantage of the excursions; and he believed that it was in this direction, as mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, that they were now spending more money. He would like to suggest to him that the Government might do something to assist this, if it read and digested some of the recommendations of the Committee on Physical Deterioration. One or two of these recommendations were of particular interest; and, if the Government could adopt them, he was sure they would help further in the decrease in the consumption of intoxicants in the country. They had nothing but praise for the reduction of the duty on tea, but it should not be understood that the Budget was a satisfactory one to the labouring classes. It was nothing of the kind. They quite admitted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was carrying out the financial arrangements of all previous Chancellor, of the Exchequer and had done the best he could, but there was no reason why he should not have instituted some new mode of raising money. There were such things as copying graduation,

  1147
  as they had it in the death duties. Why should not the same principle be adopted with regard to the income-tax? He was quite amused to notice how careful and considerate hon. Members were about the commercial classes and their income-tax. Surely, they realised that there was a net income of £160, and that taxation in those cases left 19s. in the £. But when they came to the working man earning 18s., £1, and 22s. a week, there was no £160, and the tax came clean out of the income. It was a very heavy tax. What they wanted to see was that those who could pay, those who had £160 and more, should be taxed to the relief of the indirect taxpayer.
  Then he held that there was absolutely no need for the present great expenditure. They must prove first of all that their expenditure was justifiable before they could say the people were not entitled to some reduction. Surely discussions in the House during the past three or four weeks on Army questions revealed to the whole nation that we were not getting value for our money, and that, if we were, there would be considerably less expenditure for the same troops and for the armament of them. He knew it was very unpopular to say a word against expenditure on the Navy, but they had such men as the Member for Exeter saying, as he said last year, that the two-Power standard could be maintained with £9,000,000 less expenditure, and this had never been replied to, and they were entitled to have some consideration given to statements of this kind and to have something shown for the additional £9,000,000 which he said were unnecessary to maintain that standard. He wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reply
  1148
  to the statement as to the proportionment of taxation paid by the various classes in the country. It was a subject that wanted going into. If it were true that a working man with an average wage of 33s. per week was paying 1s. 7d. in the £, it was considerably more when they came to the labourer with 18s, £1, and 25s. per week. When it was said that the commercial classes were paying 1s. in the £, it should not be understood that they were paying more than their share; in his opinion they were paying less in proportion to their ability to pay.
  1. Resolved, "That for the purpose of paying off any Exchequer Bonds issued under the Supplemental War Loan Acts of 1900, any sums not exceeding £10,000,000 be raised by the issue of Exchequer Bonds to be current, subject to the provisions for the redemption of the total issue, for a period of ten years, and that in each year of that period one-tenth part of the total issue of the new Bonds be drawn for repayment and redeemed by the application for the purpose of the requisite part of the new Sinking Fund, and that the permanent annual charge for the National Debt be increased so as to be £28,000,000. That any expenses incurred in connection with raising or paying off any such sums, and the principal of and interest on any such sums, be charged on the Consolidated Fund, and, as to the interest, be paid as part of the permanent annual charge for the National Debt.— (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

  CONTINUANCE Of ADDITIONAL CUS- TOMS DUTIES ON TOBACCO, BEER, AND SPIRITS.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the additional Customs duties

  1149
  on tobacco, beer, and spirits imposed by sections 2, 3, 4, and 5 of The Finance Act, 1900 (including any increased duties imposed by section 5 of that Act), shall continue to be charged until the first
  day of July, nineteen hundred and six."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 175; Noes, 106. (Division List No. 129.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Percy, Earl

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Gretton, John

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Hamilton,Marq.of(L'nd'nde'ry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Arrol, Sir William

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn Sir H

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Purvis, Robert

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords.N. W.)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Balcarres, Lord

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Randles John S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Helder, Augustus

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H. (Somers't, E)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Renwick, George

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hoult, Joseph

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Bigwood, James

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Bill, Charles

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Rose, Charles Day

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hunt, Rowland

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Brassey, Albert

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon Arthur Fred.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Brigg, John

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

  Keswick, William

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Caldwell, James

  Lamont, Norman

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin, Univ.)

  Langley, Batty

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln).

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Shackleton, David James

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N. R)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc.)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Legge, Col. Hn. Heneage

  Smith, Rt. Hn J. Parker (Lanarks

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Spear, John Ward

  Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile

  Lucas, Col Francis (Lowestoft)

  Stroyan, John

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.)

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Tuff, Charles

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Turnour, Viscount

  Finch, Rt. Hn. George H.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Vincent., Col. C Sir E. H (Sheffield

  Finlay, Sir R. B (Inv'rn'ssB'ghs)

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh'e

  Welby, Lt. Col A. C. E (Taunton

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Milvain, Thomas

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Moore, William

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton and Lyne)

  Forster, Henry William

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

  Whitmore, Chas. Algernon

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.)

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wylie, Alexander

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Muntz, Sir Phillip A.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Viscount Valentia.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Peel, Hn. W. Robert Wellesley

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Dowd, John

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Hammond, John

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Harcourt, Lewis

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Allen, Charles P.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Malley, William

  Ambrose, Robert

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  O'Mara, James

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Benn, John Williams

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rea, Russell

  Boland, John

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Reddy, M.

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Johnson, John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Joicey, Sir James

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Roche, John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Crean, Eugene

  Levy, Maurice

  Sheehy, David

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

  Sullivan, Donal

  Delany, William

  Mac Veagh, Jeremiah

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Devlin , Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duffy, William J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Elibank, Master of

  Murphy, John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wills, Arthur W. (N. Dorset)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

  Fenwick, Charles

  O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid

  Young, Samuel

  Ffrench, Peter

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Field, William

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N)

  Mr. Mooney and Mr. Joyce.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S. )

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  CONTINUANCE OF ADDITIONAL EXCISE DUTIES ON BEER AND SPIRITS.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the additional Excise duties on beer and spirits imposed by Sections 6 and 7 of The Finance Act, 1900, shall
  continue to be charged until the first day of July nineteen hundred and six."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 171; Noes, 97. (Division List No. 130.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Caldwell, James

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh

  Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ.

  Finlay, Sir R. B. (Inv'rn'ssB' hS

  Arrol, Sir William

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Forster, Henry William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J A. (Worc.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Balfour, Rt Hn A J (Manch'r)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald (Leeds, W

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Banner, John S. Harmood

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Bigwood, James

  DalKeith Earl of

  Greene, W Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Bill, Charles

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gretton, John

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Brassey, Albert

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Brigg, John

  Disraeli, Conings by Ralph

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Marks, Harry Hananel

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Heath, Sir Jas. (Staffords, N. W

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Milvain, Thomas

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Helder, Augustus

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Moore, William

  Shackleton, David James

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Morgan David J. (Walthamstow

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hn H. (Somers't E.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, Rt. Hn J. Parker (Lanarks

  Hoult, Joseph

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Smith, Hon. W F. D. (Strand)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Spear, John Ward

  Hunt, Rowland

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. R. Wellesley

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Keswick, William

  Percy, Earl

  Stroyan, John

  Lambton, Hn. Frederick W.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Lamont, Norman

  Plummer, Sir Walter R.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

  Langley, Batty

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward

  Tuff, Charles

  Lawson, John G. (Yorks. N. R.)

  Purvis, Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Turnour, Viscount

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Randles, John S.

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H(Sheffield

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  White, Luke, York, E. R.)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Whiteley, H. Ashton-und. Lyne

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Renwick, George

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York., E. R.)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Rose, Charles Day

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Viscount Valentia.

  Majendie, James A H.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hammond, John

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S,)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Boland, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E,)

  O'Malley, William

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  O'Mara, James

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Johnson, John

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Joicey, Sir James

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kennedy, P. J. (Westmeath, N.)

  Rea, Russell

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan W

  Reddy, M.

  Crean, Eugene

  Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W.)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Cullinan, J.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Levy, Maurice

  Roche, John

  Delany, William

  Lundon, W.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay Galway

  Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

  Runciman, Walter

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Sheehy, David

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Mooney, John J.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Moss, Samuel

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Ffrench, Peter

  Murphy, John

  Villiers, Ernest Amherst

  Field, William

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  1154

  1155

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T(Hudd'rsfi'd

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Wills, Arthur Walters (N Dorset

  Young, Samuel

  Duffy and Mr. Joyce.

  AMENDMENT OF LAW.
  Resolved, "That it is expedient to amend the law relating to the National Debt, Customs, and Inland Revenue.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  Resolutions to be reported to-morrow; Committee to sit again to-morrow.

  CLOSING OF LICENSED PREMISES (CHRISTMAS DAY) (IRELAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported; as amended, to be considered to-morrow.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Sir A. Acland-Hood.)
  MR. DALZIELsaid that many hon. Members had remained in the belief that the Army Annual Bill was to be taken that evening. He thought that when the Government had changed their mind as to the arrangement of the business at the Evening Sitting information should be given to the House. He asked when the Government proposed to take the Army Annual Bill.

  Railway Company

  Total Number.

  Total number used exclusively for shunting purposes.

  Number fitted with Power Brakes.

  Engines.

  Tenders.

  Engines.

  Tenders.

  Engines.

  Tenders.

  MR. McKENNAsaid that there was a general understanding that the Army Annual Bill would be taken that night, and it was on that ground that arrangements had been made to discuss it. He did not suggest for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman had done anything to defeat those on that side of the House in their arrangements.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD, Somersetshire, Wellington)said that as the Divisions on the Chancellor's Resolution went on till twenty minutes past twelve o'clock, and as it was agreed that the debate on the Army Annual Bill would go on for a considerable time, he thought it would be more convenient to take it on Wednesday at twelve midnight.
  MR. DALZIEL: Does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that the Government are going to be on those benches at twelve midnight on Wednesday?

  POWER BRAKES ON RAILWAY LOCO- MOTIVES.
  Return ordered, in the following form—
  Adjourned at twenty minutes before One O'clock

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Lautour's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. A Bill to dissolve the marriage of Jane Sarah Victoria Lautour, of Ansty House, Erdington, in the county of Warwick, with Ernest Lautour, her husband, and to enable her to marry again, and for other purposes. Presented (on Petition), and a copy of the proceedings in and of the Decree of Divorce of the King's Bench, Matrimonial Division, of the High Court of Justice in Ireland. Delivered (on oath). Bill read 1a.
Lautour's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. Petition of Jane Sarah Victoria Lautour, praying that substituted service of a copy of the Bill, and of the Order for the Second Reading thereof, and of all other Orders connected therewith, be made upon Mr. Frank W. Faulkner, of 7, Chandos Street, Cavendish Square, London, solicitor; read. Ordered, That the said Petition be considered tomorrow.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: Accrington Corporation; Accrington District Gas and Water Board; South Suburban Gas; Wrexham Gas. The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Leeds and Liverpool Canal Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Sheffield University Bill [H.L.]. Committee to meet To-morrow.
Lautour's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. A witness to attend on the hearing of the Petition for substituted service.
Mortgage Insurance Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Commercial Union Assurance Bill [H.L.]; Clacton Improvement Bill
962
[H.L.]; Truro Water Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Administrative County of London and District Electric Power Company Bill [H.L.]. The Earl of CAMPERDOWN, Chairman of the Select Committee, informed the House, That the Lord Romilly was unable, on account of illness, to continue his attendance on Thursday and Friday last and this day, and that the Committee continued sitting on those days in the absence of the Lord Romilly, all parties having consented thereto; road, and agreed to.
Abertillery Urban District Water Bill [H.L.]; Bangor (County Down) Water and Improvement Bill [H.L.]; Matlock Bath Improvement Bill [H.L.]; Bridge-water Canals Bill [H.L.]; University College, London (Transfer), Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [H.L.]; Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Formby Township Bill [H.L.]; Humber Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Yarborough be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Lord Castlemaine; read, and agreed to.
Administrative County of London and District Electric Power Company Bill [H.L.]; East London and Lower Thames Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Charing Cross and Strand Electricity Supply Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Leave given to the Select Committee to adjourn over Tomorrow.
City of London Electric Lighting Company Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan Electric Supply Company (Acton District) Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan Electric Supply Company (Various Powers) Bill [H.L.]; North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [H.L.]; Central Electric Supply Bill [H.L.]; County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [H.L.]. Leave given to the Select Committee to adjourn over To-morrow.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill. Read 3a (according to order), and passed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3338. Italy (Finances).

  INDUSTRIAL ALCOHOL COMMITTEE.
  Report of the Departmental Committee on Industrial Alcohol.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  GAS COMPANIES (METROPOLIS).
  Accounts of the Metropolitan gas companies for the year 1904.
  POLLING DISTRICTS (CITY OF MAN- CHESTER).
  Order made by the council of the city of Manchester dividing the Parliamentary borough of Manchester into polling districts.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury minute, dated 4th April, 1905, granting a retired allowance to William H. Wood, Engineer-in-Chiefs Department, General Post Office, under Section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PATENTS, DESIGNS, AND TRADE MARKS (REGISTRATION OF PATENT AGENTS) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  THE EARTHQUAKE IN INDIA.
  LORD REAY: I wish to ask the noble Marquess the Under-Secretary of State for India a Question of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether he has any further information to give the House with regard to the terrible calamity which has befallen India.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Marquess of BATH): My Lords, the names of those who, up to this morning, are reported by the Government of India to have been killed or
  964
  injured have been communicated to the Press; but it is feared that the list is still incomplete. The Secretary of State has received the following particulars from the Government of India in a telegram dated 9th inst.—
  "From Viceroy, April 9th, 1905.—In Lahore, twenty-five natives killed and considerable damage done to private and public property; in Amritsar, Golden Temple damaged and some lives lost; at Tarn Taran, nine killed and seven severely injured. At Dalhousie, damage to property, but no deaths. Palampur, in Kangra district, reported totally destroyed, and many hundred lives lost. Very serious damage also reported in Kangra and Jowala, Mukhi and other villages in Kangra Valley. Every building, without exception, in Kangra and Bhawan in ruins, including Sessions House and Mission buildings. The Kangra treasury has collapsed and treasure boxes lying under débris. Of police, only Deputy-Inspector of Police, one sergeant, and one constable uninjured, and three other constables alive, but injured. Of Tahsil Establishment only office kanungo and two chaprassies, of whom one is uninjured, are alive. Total number estimated to be alive is 500. Many people still alive are imprisoned in ruined houses. Similar state of affairs in most other villages in the neighbourhood. At Dharmsala, all houses and buildings throughout the entire station, including cantonment and bazaars, have been totally destroyed, with enormous loss of life."
  The mortality among natives is not yet known, but the following casualties among native troops have been reported—
  "Killed, 140(including women, children, and followers); injured, 186; missing, 71. Relief party, with doctors, medicine, food, and tents, sent from Lahore on April 5th. A double company of 34th Pioneers also left Mian Mir on April 7th to render assistance at Dharmsala, Palampur, Kangra and other places in Kangra Valley. Two more companies are being sent and two or three Pioneer companies are being sent from Umballa. Military authorities have been asked to hold other forces in readiness to send if necessary. An Assistant District Superintendent of Police with 200 constables are being sent to protect property and to take place of constables killed. No further information at present."
  This morning the Viceroy telegraphs as follows—
  "Latest information from Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjab does not add to details already wired. It is clear that towns of Dharmsala, Kangra, and Palampur are virtually destroyed, that loss of life has been very great, and that full measure of catastrophe, owing to difficulty of communication, cannot be ascertained for some time. I have only desisted from proceeding at once to scene of disaster at urgent request of Lieutenant-Governor, who will go there himself."

  965
  In reply to an inquiry from the Secretary of State as to the desirability of opening a relief fund, the Viceroy adds—
  "I am starting Indian subscription list for sufferers whose losses it will be impossible to meet from other sources, and in a day or two, when fuller information has reached me, I hope to be able to tell you whether we should also appeal to wider circle. I think that this may be necessary.
  "Commissioner further reports that at Dharmsala, owing to splendid work of Ghurkhas and others, nearly all bodies have already been exhumed. Special party been despatched to visit all tea estates round Palampur, and similar parties in other directions. Police report from Kulu shows some loss of life there, but no European casualties reported. In Kangra nearly all Government native clerks have perished."
  I am certain there can be only one feeling in your Lordships' House with regard to the terrible calamity which has overtaken India.

  THE BALLASTING OF MERCHANT SHIPS.
  LORD MUSKERRYrose to call attention to the loss of the "Eulomene," proceeding across the North Sea in ballast, and to the accident to ,the "County of Anglesea," which, on a passage from Rouen to Liverpool in ballast, was towed into Portland Roads on her beam ends; to ask whether it is intended to hold formal investigations in the cases of the two vessels named; and, further, to ask whether the Board of Trade are now intending to take the necessary steps towards enforcing the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee. He said:—My Lords, we have to deplore the loss of another British ship sailing in ballast, together with the whole of her crew; and we cannot but feel sincere pity for the misery and sorrow which have been caused to the bereaved relatives and friends. Your Lordships know that I have taken some interest in this subject of the proper ballasting of merchant ships.
  I do not wish to prejudice the case of the "Eulomene" in the slightest, or to say one single word which would reflect on her owners. It is due as much to them as to the public that a thorough investigation should be held. What it is requisite we should know of fully is, what amount of ballast she carried, and whether, if loose ballast, it was protected by shifting
  966
  boards, which the Light Load-line Committee of your Lordships' House recommended should be enforced by the Board of Trade. Also, it would seem that this vessel's manning would need enquiry, more particularly as, besides the captain, she appeared to have one certificated officer only; whilst, so far as can be judged from their names, the fourteen men in the forecastle were all foreigners. I gather that no question is raised as to the accuracy of these latter points.
  The case of the other vessel, the "County of Anglesea," was fortunately not so serious as that of the "Eulomene," but it is serious enough, in view of the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee, to require a thorough investigation. This vessel was proceeding in ballast from the Continent to Liverpool. She was sighted four miles South West of Portland Bill on February 26th last, on her beam ends, a position which, as your Lordships know, is one of imminent peril. The vessel was flying signals of distress, and three of her crew were in the rigging. According to the reports, a steamer went to her assistance, but apparently could do nothing on account of the heavy seas, and finally she left her and returned to harbour. H.M.S. "Scylla" then proceeded to the vessel and found her with her ensign reversed, which is, of course, a signal of distress. The "Scylla" thereupon despatched a life-boat to her. Ultimately, two tugs proceeded to the rescue and succeded in getting her in tow, when she was towed into Portland. The report which came from there was that the ballast shifted and she was thrown on her beam ends by heavy seas six miles South West of Portland Bill. I hope for your Lordships' careful notice of this disaster, which might easily have resulted in the loss of both ship and crew, in view of the fact that the Select Committee of your Lordships' House on the Light Load-line recommended that regulations as to securing loose ballast should be drawn up and enforced, and at the same time they deprecated strongly the practice of throwing ballast overboard before a vessel arrived at her destination.
  In July of last year, I had the honour to bring forward a Motion that, in the opinion of this House, His Majesty's

  967
  Government should at once take the necessary steps in enforcing the recommendations of the Committee. The noble Earl who was Chairman of the Committee, Lord Spencer, in speaking on my Resolution, concluded by saying that, with a hope that the Board of Trade would act more vigorously in support of the recommendations of the Committee, he did not think the Resolution should be pressed to a division. Further, the noble Marquess the Leader of this House, Lord Lansdowne, concluded his remarks by stating that by my having called attention to the subject and eliciting from the Board of Trade a distinct statement that the matter was one of which they were not losing sight, he hoped I would be content with the discussion and not press the Motion to a division. In deference to the views of the two noble Lords I withdrew my Motion. When, however, I see recurring disasters to vessels in ballast, due to its shifting and otherwise, I trust you will think it is perfectly justifiable on my part to bring the cases before your Lordships' House. As it appears that the ballast shifted on board the "County of Anglesea," what is necessary is a strict investigation as to the cause of this shifting and as to whether any precautions have been adopted against it in the manner recommended by the Light Load-line Committee. There are already regulations laid down to prevent the shifting of cargoes of grain. It is not necessary for me to dwell upon the serious dangers of either cargo or ballast shifting. If we require grain cargoes to be properly secured from shifting it is only logical to say that similar requirements should be enforced in the case of vessels sailing with loose ballast. I hope to hear that the Board of Trade will now give their earnest attention to the disasters I have named, and to the necessity of acting upon the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee, which are, it seems to me, imperative.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, before answering my noble friend's Questions, which are three in number, I have to express regret at the absence of my noble friend Lord Salisbury, who is unavoidably prevented from being in his place to-day to reply to the Questions on the Paper.
  968
  With regard to the first two Questions, I have great pleasure in informing my noble friend that the President of the Board of Trade has ordered an inquiry into both cases, which are, therefore, sub judice. In view of that fact I am sure your Lordships will not expect me to enter into them. They will be thrashed out by a competent tribunal, and the Report of that tribunal, when it is received will be published and will be accessible to my noble friend. In the latter part of his notice my noble friend again refers to the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee. The concluding clause of the Committee's Report was as follows—
  "The Committee, therefore, confidently rely upon the Board of Trade to use the powers already conferred upon them by Parliament to prevent the improper or insufficient ballasting of ships. It will be the duty of the Board to apply at once to Parliament if at any future date they consider any extension of their power necessary in the public interest."
  That recommendation was immediately taken up by the Board of Trade, who issued a warning setting out the recommendation, and proceeding,—
  "In view of these recommendations the Board of Trade desire to call the particular attention of principal and detaining officers and surveyors to the instuctions already issued respecting the improper ballasting of ships, and (in the absence of any statutory authority to draw up and enforce precise regulations on the subject of ballasting) the Department wish to strongly emphasise the necessity for the survey staff exercising an active supervision not only over vessels on the point of sailing in ballast, but also over vessels taking in ballast of such a nature as may require exceptionally careful stowage and may be liable to the danger of shifting when the vessels are at sea."
  Nothing has occurred since then to alter the opinion of the Board of Trade that under the existing provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act they are able to carry out the recommendations of the Select Committee. If the time should come when they require statutory powers they will immediately appeal to this House, and to the other House of Parliament, to obtain them. I am instructed to say that at the present moment the Board of Trade are quite satisfied with the law as it stands, and do not propose to apply for any further powers.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, it is satisfactory to learn, at all events, that

  969
  inquiries are to be made in the two cases which my noble friend has brought before the House, and a great deal will depend, I think, on the outcomes of those inquiries. My noble friend who has just spoken was a member of the Light Load-line Committee, and fully agreed, I believe, with all our recommendations.
  LORD WOLVERTON: Hear, hear!
  EARL SPENCER: And the noble Lord will, I have no doubt, take care that the Board of Trade are kept alive to the necessity of seeing that the recommendations of the Committee are carried out, and that Board of Trade regulations are made with regard to the ballasting of ships at sea. It is a very important matter, and the noble Lord opposite does quite right in bringing cases of this sort forward if there is the slightest fear that the accidents to these ships are in any way due to the neglect of the precautions which the Committee thought necessary and pressed on the Board of Trade to adopt. When the Report is issued we shall be able to judge whether any further pressure should be brought on the Board of Trade, either to carry out the existing regulations more strictly or to ask for a strengthening of the law.

  PATENTS, DESIGNS, AND TRADEMARKS (REGISTRATION OF PATENT AGENTS) BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD COLERIDGE: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, perhaps it would be useful if I make a short statement with regard to its object. It is an amendment and extension of the Act of 1888. The Act of 1888 was the result of a Commission appointed by the Board of Trade in 1885 to consider the question of the position of patent agents. They recommended that a register should be instituted, and that persons should not be allowed to advertise themselves or to put themselves forward as acting as patent agents unless they were placed on a register in accordance
  970
  with rules to be drawn up by the Board of Trade. Those rules were drawn up in 1889, and they are the rules which are in force at the present time. Since then grave mischief has been occasioned by the fact that persons have been in the habit of advertising themselves under various headings which are misleading, and have thereby induced innocent and unwary inventors to believe that they are registered as patent agents. The Board of Trade had their attention called to the mischief, and the result was that in the year 1894 a Bill was brought in to remedy this defect. That Bill contained a clause in all substantial matters identical with the substantive clause in my Bill. That Bill was referred to a Committee and the Committee passed the clause which I am now desirous of placing on the Statute-book, but owing to the general election in 1894 the matter went no further and was abandoned. I desire in this Bill to throw my net wider, if I can, and to embrace those persons who, under synonyms of patent agents, practise in this country without being registered, and without being qualified. Again and again the Board of Trade have held inquiries into the conduct of persons who have been on the register. Those inquiries have resulted in the Board of Trade striking them off the register for disgraceful professional conduct; but, notwithstanding, these very persons have continued to practise, to all intents and purposes, as patent agents deceiving unwary inventors by the use of one or other of the appellations I desire to prevent them using in the future under this Bill. I am told that there are some persons who are innocently using these appellations in the ordinary way of their trade, and they think it is unfair that they should be prevented from doing so in future. I am willing in Committee to add a clause, which I have drafted and shown to the President of the Board of Trade, saving all present rights, and in that way following the precedent which was set in the year 1888, when all existing rights or vested interests were at that time saved. That, I think, would prevent objections which have been entertained in some quarters to the Bill; and I hope that the Bill, with that Amendment

  971
  which I am prepared to move in Committee, may meet with the sanction and approval of the Board of Trade. I may say that the great mass of patents that are registered in this country are registered by properly registered patent agents. I do not wish to prevent any individual acting as agent for another, but I do wish to prevent them holding themselves out as patent agents under synonyms such as patent expert, inventor's agent, and so on, which really mean to the public the same thing as a patent agent. I beg to move the Second Reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Coleridge.)
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I have again to regret the absence of my noble friend the President of the Board of Trade. The noble and learned Lord opposite has clearly explained his Bill to the House, and I do not propose, on behalf of the Government or the Board of Trade, to offer any opposition to the Second Reading. When the Bill reaches the Committee stage the Board of Trade may have to introduce some Amendments, but they will be Amendments which, judging from the remarks that have just fallen from the noble and learned Lord, will meet with his approval.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  COLONIAL GOVERNORS.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government will consider the appointment of officials of the Colonial Office to serve on the staffs of the Governors of self-governing Colonies. In rising to ask this Question I must frankly confess that I do so less with the object of drawing information from His Majesty's Government than in order to make a suggestion to them on a subject which I believe to be of considerable importance. When His Majesty the King appoints a Governor to one of the self-governing Colonies, the Secretary of State usually selects a gentleman who has
  972
  had no previous experience of that colony, and rightly, because the incoming Governor lands in the colony unprejudiced as regards Party and able to take a neutral attitude. In the same way the staff which the Governor brings out with him to the colony are new to the colony, and, therefore, for some little time at any rate, after the arrival of a new Governor, the Secretary of State for the Colonies at home receives no reliable information with regard to affairs generally in that colony.
  I know it may be contended that the Governor of a colony is the paid servant of that colony, and that he is in a sense the mouthpiece of the Ministry of the day in the colony. I venture to say that such a view overlooks the fact that the Governor of a colony is the representative of His Majesty the King, and that it is his duty to keep His Majesty and His Majesty's Secretary of State informed of what is going on in His Majesty's dominions, and therefore I cannot think that it can be contended that it is not his duty to give information to the Secretary of State. Indeed, my Lords, I do not think anyone who has read the history of the American Rebellion can deny that it is of importance that the Secretary of State should receive accurate information with regard to what is going on in the self-governing Colonies; and if he is not to receive such information, what is the position of His Majesty's Government with regard to the self-governing Colonies? They would be worse informed about a colony like Australia than they would be about a country like Japan. In Japan His Majesty's Government have a Minister and a staff of officials to give them information, but in a self-governing colony, if they cannot rely on the Governor, they have nobody at all. I would appeal to those of your Lordships who have been Governors in self-governing Colonies to confirm me when I say that a Governor can be consistently loyal to his own Government, and at the same time furnish information to the Secretary of State for the Colonies with regard to the general affairs taking place in the colony.
  When the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs appoints

  973
  an ambassador to, we will say, France, that ambassador goes to Paris, and finds there a chancery of experts who have had every opportunity of, and have been, studying affairs going on in that country, and whose business it is to report to him; but a colonial Governor lands in the colony with no such means of information, and I submit that it would be greatly to the interests of the Imperial connection and of the Governor, if, when he landed, he was met by an officer who had served with his predecessor and who would be able to keep him informed of the state of affairs in the colony. I should like to give your Lordships an illustration of what I mean. The Secretary of State for War has lately told us in the Memorandum on the Army Estimates that His Majesty's Government are in negotiation with the Dominion of Canada with regard to the evacuation of Halifax and Esquimault by the Imperial troops. I venture to say that that is not really a military question; it is a civil question of the first magnitude, and it vitally affects the relations between Canada and the United Kingdom. Is it fair to expect a Governor-General who has only recently landed in the colony to be able at once to give full information with regard to so important a matter? I venture to say that if the noble Earl, Lord Grey, had had, when he landed, an official from the Colonial Office who had served under Lord Minto as a member of his staff, he would have been very pleased, and I think that that is sufficiently proved by the fact that the present Governor-General of Canada has taken on a private secretary from the late Governor-General.
  But, my Lords, that is only the smaller part of the argument. The real benefit of the proposal which I desire to put before your Lordships would be when the official who had served under the Governor in the colony returned to the Colonial Office. I ask, what means have the Colonial Office of knowing about the self-governing Colonies? I wish to guard myself from appearing in the slightest degree to lay the smallest aspersion on the Colonial Office. I know every member of its staff. I have the highest admiration of their ability; I have the greatest respect for their
  974
  loyalty to their chief, for their industry, and for their general efficiency; but I ask, what opportunities have the Colonial Office of knowing about the self-governing Colonies? I do not mean to say that they do not know about what I will call the external affairs of those Colonies. They may be able to tell you every point connected with the Treaty Shore; they may know all about the Alaska boundary, or the Pacific cable, or the relations of Fiji and New Zealand; but how can they learn what are the true aspirations and feelings of a great country like Australia? You may say they have the Reports of the Governors. Yes, my Lords, but those Reports are intermittent, because the Governors are constantly changing. The Secretary of State for the Colonies does not know the Governors personally, or in the same way as the noble Marquess and his staff at the Foreign Office are acquainted with the ambassadors, because the Governors are temporary and the ambassadors are permanent; and it must discount from the value of a despatch if the man who reads it does not know the person who writes it, as might very well happen in the case of relations between the Governor of a colony and the persons who have to advise the Secretary of State for the Colonies in Downing Street.
  To continue the parallel with the Foreign Office, I should like to point out that members of the Diplomatic Service and Foreign Office clerks very often interchange, and that the Foreign Office is the gainer by the information they receive. In the same way officials in the Colonial Service of the Crown Colonies very often work in the Colonial Office and give the Colonial Office the benefit of their experience, whilst Colonial Office clerks go out to the Crown Colonies. But such a state of things is impossible with regard to the self-governing Colonies, because the staff of the Governor, being temporary, comes to an end with the Governor. I feel that I ought to give an illustration of the real evil which the present system involves, and to do so I am forced to touch on a matter of controversial politics, but I shall do so in as uncontroversial a way as I can. I happened to be in Australia at the time when the Secretary of State for the Colonies

  975
  introduced his Ordinance for the importation of Chinese labour into the Transvaal. I do not think anyone who is not personally acquainted with Australia can realise the intensity of Australian feeling on the Chinese question. They seem unable to dissociate the Chinese question in any country from their own cherished doctrine of a white Australia, and when one looked in the Press of Australia at that time one was unable to find any adequate declaration at all of what I believe were the views of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. It appeared to me that Australian opinion was guided entirely from one side, and that Australians never heard the other side of the question.
  I wish to call your Lordships' attention for a moment to what took place. The legislature of the Commonwealth passed a Resolution in favour of a referendum being taken before the Chinese were admitted into the Transvaal, and it was passed unanimously in the Senate and quasi-unanimously in the House of Representatives. Now, what did the Secretary of State for the Colonies reply? He began by recognising the right of the Legislature of the Australian Commonwealth to express their opinion about this matter, and he alluded to the part played by Australians in the recent war. He then went on to say—
  "His Majesty's Government regret that for the reasons which have been stated in discussion upon the matter in Parliament during this present session they have been unable to adopt the policy advocated in the Resolution."
  After that followed about ten lines containing two bare statements—that the condition of things was exceptional, and that the matter was extremely urgent. So far as I know that was the only official information which the Australian people had about this matter on which they felt very strongly, and in my humble opinion the Secretary of State for the Colonies lost a golden opportunity of laying before the people of Australia in a closely-reasoned and well-argued despatch the full grounds and reasons for his policy. Instead of that he referred them to speeches which he had himself made in the Imperial Parliament. My Lords, it is surely too much to expect of Australian statesmen that they should read the English Hansard,
  976
  and I venture to think the man in the street in Australia never heard any argument at all in favour of the side which the Secretary of State for the Colonies was advocating. My point is this, that if there had been to advise the Secretary of State for the Colonies anybody who realised what the opinion of Australia was, I do not believe this despatch would ever have been issued.
  One word more, and I have done. Your Lordships are aware—and nobody can be better aware than the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—of the round-aboutness of negotiations between a self-governing colony and a foreign country. The Government of the colony has to communicate with the Governor; the Governor has to communicate with the Secretary of State for the Colonies; the Secretary of State has to communicate with the Foreign Office; the Foreign Office has to communicate with the British Ambassador abroad; and the British Ambassador has to communicate with the foreign Government. The cumbersomeness of this system has already found its vent in a clamour which has been raised in Canada for what is called the treaty-making power. As the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, said in a speech about eighteen months ago, the offer of the Government of Canada to take over the treaty-making power is not one which is likely to unite the Empire more closely. That seems to me certainly the case, and the present system of negotiation is not one that can indefinitely last, but while it does it is of great importance that we should do all we can to grease the wheels of that very circuitous means of communication. In that chain of negotiation there is a link which is not in touch with the others on each side of it. I mean that when a Governor goes out new to Government House he and his staff are as little acquainted with Downing Street as they are, on the other side, at first with the Governor, and I submit that it would be better if the Governor had on his staff a man intimately acquainted with the ways of Downing Street.
  I am encouraged to put this Question because I observe that not the least able administrator who has been sent out by the Colonial Office has insisted

  977
  on the adoption of this system. Lord Milner has had on his staff for the last few years a person taken from the Colonial Office, and I am glad to say that the noble Lord who is going out as High Commissioner to South Africa in succession to Lord Milner is following his example. I desire to say that I have not brought this matter forward in any contentious or fussy spirit; I have not brought it forward in order to enjoy the exhilarating sensation of making a speech in your Lordships' House, but because I believe it to be really a matter of considerable importance, much more so than would at first sight meet the eye. I know there are objections to it, but I believe that the advantages far outweigh the objections. It is naturally very awkward for a Government to lose some of its trained officials, but in the consideration of this matter I would ask you to remember that the Colonial Office was made for the Colonies and not the Colonies for the Colonial Office. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Duke of MARLBOROUGH): My Lords, I have listened with great attention to the observations which have fallen from my noble friend opposite. The noble Lord is well qualified to give his views to your Lordships upon colonial administration, for he was for many years private secretary to the late Secretary of State for the Colonies, and was in close touch and made himself thoroughly familiar with the machinery of that great Department. But I confess that, in listening to his speech this afternoon, I could not help feeling that he had strayed away to a considerable extent from the original Question on the Order Paper of your Lordships' House. The noble Lord prefaced his remarks by telling your Lordships that when Governors go to self-governing Colonies they are for the first five or six months very little acquainted with either the history of, or the late political achievements in connection with, the Colonies, and that consequently they are unable to give the Secretary of State at home any very accurate information of what is taking
  978
  place in the Colonies over which they preside. My noble friend has had experience in the Colonial Office. I can only speak for myself, and certainly during the time I have been at the Colonial Office I do not recollect that we have ever suffered from the lack of information from any Governor of a self-governing colony.
  I confess I fail to understand the point of view of the noble Lord. He says that a Governor-General has no means whatever of making himself acquainted with what has taken place in the colony before his arrival, because he has no official from the Colonial Office on his staff who had arrived there before he went out. My noble friend seems to forget altogether that a Governor of a self-governing colony has the whole of the information of his confidential advisers in the shape of the Ministers of the day in the colony. They inform him, and, indeed, it is their absolutely duty to inform him, of all that has taken place, and the function of the Governor-General is to weigh that information and embody it in a despatch for the information of the Secretary of State. Seeing that that machinery exists, I for my part cannot admit that the contention of my noble friend is a very serious one. Because a Governor on his arrival in a colony has not got some official who has been sent out there by the Colonial Office two or three years previously, I do not see how it can be said that he is incapable of sending to the Government at home adequate information concerning the colony over which he presides. My noble friend drew some analogy between the duties of a Colonial Governor and those of an Ambassador. I am not closely acquainted with the functions of an Ambassador, and therefore he must forgive me if I do not follow him into an examination of that particular question. I will, however, deal with one other point which also exercises the mind of my noble friend. He said that in his opinion the views held by the self-governing Colonies upon important political questions which affect the Empire are inadequately represented in this country, or inadequately understood by us.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: I did not say that the Colonies were inadequately represented in this country.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: The noble Lord stated that the views held by the self-governing Colonies were inadequately represented in this country. He seems to forget entirely that we are well acquainted in the Colonial Office with the views of the self-governing Colonies, and that we have machinery in the shape of despatches from the Governor or Governor-General. In addition, the important newspapers are continually sent home to the Colonial Office, and all those matters which we think exercise the minds of those dwelling in our self-governing Colonies are carefully marked and invariably brought before the notice of the Secretary of State. Not only do we receive information through the colonial Press, but in any question affecting a particular colony there is the ordinary method of transmitting information, the cable and the telegraph, and there is, too, the English Press. My noble friend knows perfectly well that if there is any matter of importance affecting Canada, Australia, or any of the other Colonies, it is immediately cabled over and included in the information in the daily Press here. I would go further and remind my noble friend that if there is a matter which seriously affects the interests of a self-governing colony, a matter on which the colonists themselves feel strongly, they are able to have their views represented every four years at the Colonial Conference over which the Secretary of State for the Colonies presides. So I really do not think my noble friend's contention will, on reflection, be given that importance which he has attached to it.
  My noble friend passed from the consideration of the feelings of the self-governing Colonies and gave the House an illustration in support of his argument. During his visit to Australia he was enabled, he said, to hear from the Australians their views upon the question of Chinese labour, and he told us, furthermore, that the Australians had received very little information as to the views and ideas of the Imperial Government upon this most important and difficult problem. I am at a loss to understand how that
  980
  could possibly be true. There is the medium of the Press and there is the telegraph, and if the Australians were so interested in this problem as my noble friend assures us they were, surely the Press of that country would have taken the first means it could to inform itself of the views and the ideas of the people here at home. My noble friend seems to think that all these difficulties might have been removed if only there had been some representative of the Colonial Office who had arrived in Australia two or three years before this particular problem presented itself both to our notice and to the notice of the people of Australia. I cannot agree with my noble friend. I do not think the advantages of the presence of a permanent official in the different self-governing Colonies would be so great as he imagines.
  The noble Lord is perfectly aware that during Mr. Chamberlain's tenure at the Colonial Office he, in some instances, did send what are known as first-class clerks to certain of the Crown Colonies, and some of the more important officials in the Crown Colonies came over to the Colonial Office and worked there with the rest of the officials. This practice, although inconvenient, was on the whole found to work well. We were anxious that the first-class clerks might have an opportunity of learning on the spot political administration, and it was furthermore felt by the Civil Service at homo that it would be useful to have some of the high officials of the Crown Colonies at home in order that they might acquaint themselves with the work of the Colonial Office, and in order that we might test whether they were fit for further promotion. But although this practice held good with regard to first-class clerks it has never been extended to those who occupy the position of second-class clerks.
  My noble friend alluded to the fact that Lord Milner had a private secretary who was a second-class clerk in the Colonial Office, and that Lord Selborne was going to follow his example. That is perfectly true, but the reason why those two distinguished administrators have been authorised to take second-class clerks from the Colonial Office is that the political conditions of the Transvaal are of

  981
  exceptional interest and of vast importance. The administration of the two new colonies is a source of great interest to the young clerks in the Colonial Office, and they gladly avail themselves of the opportunity of going out to the Transvaal to work under such distinguished administrators as Lord Milner and Lord Selborne. But although the Colonial Office have consented to this practice in the case of the Transvaal, they do not view it with any very great favour, and for this reason. We have only got a certain number of second-class clerks at the Colonial Office; we have not got a redundant number; and if we are to supply the Governors of the self-governing Colonies with private secretaries or officials, as the noble Lord suggests, I fear the Colonial Office will be entirely depleted of all its able men. Having weighed the suggestion of my noble friend, the Secretary of State and, indeed, all those who advise him at the Colonial Office, have come to the conclusion that it would be quite impracticable.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEEN: My Lords, I would ask the indulgence of the House while I offer a few observations upon the interesting statement which has just been made by the noble Duke. We all sympathise with the aim of the noble Lord who raised this question, but I am sure the House, and more especially those who have been called upon to occupy the position of Governor in our Colonies, will feel that this matter involves very delicate considerations. There is a sensitiveness in the minds of our colonial fellow-subjects in regard to anything which might seem like, to use a colloquial expression, the Imperial authorities having a finger in the colonial pie, and this feeling of sensitiveness coexists and is consistent with the most complete loyalty to the mother country. I feel convinced that such a proposal as that which has been made by the noble Lord would be regarded with considerable misgiving. The noble Duke has very fully answered the contention of the noble Lord, but I think no portion of his speech will be appreciated in the
  982
  Colonies more than the sentence in which he indicated that the source from which a Governor should obtain information to send home is through his responsible advisers. That will be looked upon in the Colonies as a very sound and healthy sentiment. I would venture to add that apart from that, a new Governor wishing to be primed as to the ins and outs of the position would in the first place have the fullest confidential information from his predecessor, and, again, at the Colonial Office, before going out, he would receive the fullest information as to the position at the moment in the colony. The noble Duke the Under-Secretary mentioned various sources of information in regard to colonial affairs, and I think he will agree with me that there should be added the Agents-General for the Colonies in this country, who are being increasingly recognised by the Colonial Office as valuable sources of information. The example which the noble Lord gave as to the feeling of Australia with regard to the importation into South Africa of Chinese labour was not, in my opinion, the happiest he could have chosen. He said Australia did not know enough of the Colonial Office view, but I imagine his chief contention was that the Colonial Office did not know enough of the Australian view.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: My contention was that if there had been in the Colonial Office somebody who knew Australia personally, he would have been able to inform the Secretary of State for the Colonies of the intensity of opinion in Australia with regard to the Chinese labour question.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEEN: I should have thought the colonial Governors would have been able to convey information on such a point. But I merely rose to express my conviction that the reply of the noble Duke would in the main be regarded as eminently satisfactory, not only by your Lordships' House and this country, but by the Colonies.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I can add nothing to what has fallen from the noble Earl who has just sat down, but I think, perhaps, as I had the honour of filling the position of Colonial Secretary for three years, I ought to say with what satisfaction I heard the Answer of the noble Duke the Under-Secretary. I feel convinced that the proposal of the noble Lord behind me is one which ought not to be entertained. It is a delicate proposal, and I think I should not be very wrong if I said it was a dangerous one. During the time that I occupied the position of Colonial Secretary I never found the slightest difficulty in obtaining any information which I required in regard to what was going on in our self-governing Colonies, and I do not know that any other Secretary of State has found it more difficult than I did. You may rely upon it that a proposal of this kind would not be acceptable to the self-governing Colonies. They would regard with suspicion—undue suspicion, no doubt, but they would regard with suspicion—the person who was put in the position sketched by the noble Lord behind me, and I am very glad indeed to learn that His Majesty's Government do not intend to entertain any proposal of the kind.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I think your Lordships could have scarcely gathered from the terms of the Notice which the noble Lord put on the Paper that he was going to bring before us so serious and far-reaching a proposal as that which he has sketched out. I thought, when I saw the Notice, that he was going to call attention to the refusal of the Colonial Office to place some particular clerk at the disposal of some particular Governor, but I understand him to suggest a great deal more than that. What I understand him to suggest is that each Governor-General or Governor should be, so to speak, reinforced by the addition to his staff of a certain number of officials connected with the Colonies who will not quit their official posts when a change in the office of Governor takes place. That is, I think, a serious proposal, and one
  984
  which, as the noble Marquess has told us, would be regarded with grave misgivings by the self-governing Colonies. I think, if the noble Lord will forgive me for saying so, he showed how completely he misapprehends the case when he attempted to set up an analogy between these colonial appointments and appointments under the Foreign Office. The two things are entirely different. The position of a Colonial Governor is not that of an Ambassador. An ambassador represents his country at a foreign Court. It is his business to watch the proceedings of the foreign Government as closely as he can, and in reporting to his own Government he acts upon his own responsibility. The position of a Colonial Governor is entirely different. He is the representative of a constitutional Sovereign, and is himself the constitutional head of the Colonial Government, and although he has many and very valuable opportunities of making the Government at home aware of his personal views, he is constitutionally bound to act upon the advice of his own responsible Ministers. I am convinced that an endeavour to set up a little colonial secretariat in each of the self-governing Colonies would be a chronic source of suspicion and friction between the Governor and his constitutional advisers, and would be liable to create the impression that the representative of the Crown relied, not on his Ministers, but upon his own secretariat. The new Governor-General or Governor should be able to obtain the service of the best men for his staff that he can collect, and there may sometimes be a great advantage in his keeping on one or two members of the outgoing Governor's staff, but further than that I certainly would not go. There may be also some advantage from the occasional employment of Colonial Office clerks or other officers in the Colonies. That is a most useful practice; it is occasionally resorted to; but it differs entirely from the much wider proposal sketched out by the noble Lord, to which I hope no encouragement will be given.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock