Sitting of 12 May 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

MR. SPEAKER'S IN DISPOSITION.
The House being met, the Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. SPEAKER, owing to the continuance of his indisposition.
Whereupon Mr. JAMES WILLIAM LOWTHER, the Chairman of Ways and Means, proceeded to the Table, and after Prayers, took the Chair as Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—St. Bartholomew's Hospital Bill [Lords]; Clyde Valley Electrical Power Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a Second time.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERE TO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE).
  Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading hereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.:—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
  Kettering Improvement Bill. Lord Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  Plymouth Corporation Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Various Powers) Bill. As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.
  Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4). Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the Rural Districts of Rathdown (No. 1) and Rathdown (No. 2), ordered to be brought in by Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland and Mr. Wyndham.
  Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill. "To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the Rural Districts of Rathdown (No. 1) and Rathdown (No. 2)," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 194.]
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time to-morrow.
  Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Chesterfield Corporation (Tramways and Improvements) Bill[Lords]; University of Leeds Bill [Lords]. Yorktown and Blackwater Gas Bill [Lords]. Reported,

  1147
  with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No. 5).
  Mr. COMPTON RICKETT reported from the Committee on Group No. 5 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, they had adjourned till Tuesday next, at Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No 8).
  Mr. HENRY HOBHOUSEreported from the Committee on Group No. 8 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, they had adjourned till Monday next, at Twelve of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No. 8).
  Mr. HENRY HOBHOUSEreported from the Committee on Group No. 8 of Railway Bills; That Mr. Crean, one of the Members of the said Committee, was not present during the Sitting of the Committee this day.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration; from Dunoon; and Leith; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENCES (RENEWAL).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from High Wycombe; Exeter (two); Wakefield; Essex; Ilford; Hampstead; Pendleton; Brentford; Hull (three); South Lambeth Road; Avon Valley; Hyde; Wimbledon; Lewisham (two); Lee; Hither Green; Portsmouth; South-sea; Preston; Sheffield; Stretford; Walworth Road; Hurstmonceux; Old-bury; Walbottle; Sugley; Newcastle on Tyne (four); Causeway Lane; Middlesbrough; North Devon; Bedford Row; Cheriton; Denbigh; North Wales; Swanscombe; Durham; Ealing; Acocks Green; Victoria (Mon.); South Birmingham; Tregarthen; Heanor; Penzance (four), Allendale; Worthing; Homerton; Watlington; Greenheys; Rusholme;
  1148
  Slough; Tamworth; Morton; Bourne (three); Leigh; Thurlby; Wolverhampton; Iver; Upton Manor; Cleveland; Skinningrove; Cale Green; Plymouth; Gorton; Manchester; Widecmbe; Great Saughall; Cricklade; Liverpool; Oldham; and Boston; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against; from West Nor folk; Hanley; Upper Holloway; Bootle (ten); Macclesfield (two); Liverpool (seven); Eston; Newhaven (two); Devonshire; Radnor Park; Modbury; Gateshead (five); Southport (five); Helmsdale; Burradon; Leicester (thirteen); South Bank (two); Chiswick; South Acton; Bournemouth (seven); Westbourne; Christchurch; St. Ives; Halstead; Glasgow (three); Teignmouth; Dudley; Wrallsend; Walker; Walbottle; Camperdown; Bradford (two); Durvant; Clydach (three); Pontardawe; Libanus Gorseinon; Killybebyll; Gillingham (two); Lewes; Devonport; Hylton; Weston on Trent; Wakefield (three); Wheatley Hill; Saltcoats; Lytehill; New Lambton; Headington; North Metropolitan Union; Fraserburgh; Upper Parkstone; East Ham (four); Hornchurch; Ilford (two); Newton Abbot; Haslington; Fence Houses; Greenock (two); Hove; Stockport; South Hackney; Pendleton; Great Horton; Chudleigh; Ballachulish; Hull (two); Borough Green; Lurgan; Market Harborough (four); Oxford; Cambridge; Wandsworth Road; Ringwood; Brockenhurst; Totton; Fordingbridge; Ossett (five); Oadby (two); Lutterworth; Southampton (two); Morley (three); Falmouth; South Ossett; Studley; Teddington; Larkhall; Westminster; Stral haven; Coupar Angus; Lewisham (three); Forest Hill; Deer; Blairgowrie; Wailington; Boness; Dunoon; Bath (two); Stranraer; East Nottingham; East Belfast; Haverfordwest; Calne; Chippenham (five); Lacock (two); Kington Langley; Kington St. Michael; Stretford; Kelveden; Foxton; Lambeth; Godalming; Gosforth; Pontardawe; Llansamlet; Attleborough; Bolton (three); Royston; Truro; Ballymena; Edinburgh (five); Hornsey; Luton; Derby; Abergele; Ipswich; Wavertree West; East Wickham;

  1149
  Bexley Heath; Lichfield; Erith; Orpington; Middlesex; Barnstaple; Grange-town (two); Swansea (three); Blackpool; Hartford; Balsall Heath; East Bradford; Willington; Woo house Carr; Bardon Park; St. George in the East; Horton; Plymouth (two); Saint Andrew; Newcastle upon Tyne (eight); Tiverton; Grantham; Aberdeen; Mid Shropshire; Slough; Hurstmonoeux; Burradown and Camperdown; Lynton; Appledon; Combe Martin (two); Bideford; Ombersley; Torquay (three); Rhymney; Tredegar; Cwmsyfiog; Durham; Oldham; Royton; Hollinwood; Chelsea (two); Kensington; Stroud Green; Hull; North of England Temperance League; Buxton; Brad-well; Glossop; Harringay; Westcliffe on Sea; Staines; Rugby; Woodford; Windsor; Thame; Henley on Thames; Manchester; York; Kidlington; Mynydd Bach; Heaton; Bourne; Birmingham (four); Worcester; Bristol; Castleton (five); Turriff; Redcar; Kilmarnock; Dumbarton; Port Glasgow; Stranraer (two); Throop and Moordawn (two); Branksome; Wiltshire; Weymouth; Machynlleth; Bont; Bootle cum Linacre; West Fife; Lochgelly; Hollinwood; Sheffield; Buckhaven (two); Micheldever; Nottingham; Whitehaven; Whitchurch; Penrith; Wigton; Higher Openshaw; Sunny Side; Alnwick; Teddington; Bedfont; Poplar; Leeds; and West Gorton; to lie upon the Table.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (LIGHTHOUSES) BILL.
  Petition from Newcastle and Gateshead, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL,
  Petition from Glasgow, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION.
  Petition from Bath, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES BILL.
  Petition from Bermondsey, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF BUTTER BILL.
  Two Petitions from Brighton, against; to lie upon the Table.
  TUBERCULOSIS (ANIMALS) COMPENSATION BILL.
  Petition from Newcastle on Tyne, against; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of a Selection of Circular Letters of the Scotch Education Department, 1898–1904, with Explanatory Memorandum [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (ESTIMATE).
  Copy presented, of Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure of the Government of India for 1903–4, compared with the results of 1902–3 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 170.]
  EAST INDIA (FINANCE AND REVENUE ACCOUNTS).
  Copy presented, of Finance and Revenue Accounts of the Government of India for 1902–3 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (HOME ACCOUNTS).
  Copy presented, of Home Accounts of the Government of India [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 171.]
  EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Annual Report of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland for the year 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ULTIMUS HÆRES (SCOTLAND) (ACCOUNT AND LIST OF ESTATES).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 9th May; Mr. Victor Cavendish]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 172.]
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS SECURITIES.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 28th March; Mr. Victor Cavendish]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 173.]
  INEBRIATES ACTS, 1879 TO 1899 (REGULATIONS FOR STATE INEBRIATE EFORMATORIES).
  Copy presented, of Regulations made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in pursuance of The Inebriates Act, 1898, for the management and discipline of State Inebriate Reformatories [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 174.]
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, amending the Aldershot and Farnborough Light Railway Order, 1902 (Aldershot and Farnborough Light Railway (Amendment) Order, 1904) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, amending the Cranbrook and Tenterden Light Railway Order, 1899, and for other purposes (Kent and East Sussex Light Railway (General Powers) Order, 1904) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC ACT, 1888.
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade in accordance with Section 24, Sub-section (4) of the Act, on the Schedule of Maximum Rates and Charges to be made applicable to the Canals of the Regents Canal and Deck Company [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 175.]
  LIGHTHOUSES, ETC. (LOCAL INSPECTIONS).
  Copies presented, of Reports to the Board of Trade by the Trinity House of Deptford Strond, the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses, and the Commissioners of Irish Lights of their Inspection of Local Lighthouses, Buoys, and Beacons [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 176.]
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3159 and 3160 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Inspection of Holdings on Powerscourt Estate.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in fair rent cases heard on the Powerscourt Estate, county Wicklow, in December last, the Assistant Commissioner has not yet inspected the holdings; and if he can state when the decisions will be given in such cases.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The hearing of the remainder of the cases on the list referred to, and which included one case on the Powerscourt Estate, was not taken up until the 1st February last, owing to an accident which happened to the Lay Assistant Commissioner, who on then resuming work after his illness had a considerable number of cases on hand awaiting inspection. From inquirie which have been made, it appears that notice of inspection has already been issued in the case on Lord Powerscourt's estate, and it is expected that judgment will he given in the case by an early date.

    Return of Licensed Premises.
    MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will grant a Return, by county and county boroughs, of the number (with totals) of hotels, alehouses, and beerhouses, classified according to annual values corresponding to those in the scale of maximum charges scheduled to the Licensing Bill.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douylas.) I am in consultation with the Board of Inland Revenue, who are preparing figures of the nature desired by my right lion, friend. I am anxious to give the fullest information possible, and hope that a Return may be ready for presentation to the House within no long time.

    Factories and Workshops—Fire Precautions.
    MR. TENNANT: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home

    1153
    Department whether he has yet considered the question of the means of escape from fire in factories and workshops and the Bill before the House; and whether he will take steps for the appointment of a Select Committee on this subject.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I have considered the Bill which the hon. Member has introduced to amend the law relating to the provision of means of escape from fire in factories and workshops, but while I recognise that it is an attempt to deal with a matter of importance, which stands in need of some remedy, I do not think that the Bill is one which the House could be recommended to accept without very full investigation and discussion. In particular, the danger from fire is not peculiarly a factory question, and I do not think that the matter could be satisfactorily dealt with unless there was also brought into consideration the case of other lofty buildings where considerable numbers of persons are gathered together. The whole question, is perhaps, one for investigation by a Select Committee of the House, and if the hon. Member were to move for the appointment of such a Committee and could agree with me as to the terms of reference, I should not oppose the proposal.

    Postmastership of Ferns (Ireland).
    Sir THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the appointment of a town postman at Liverpool to the Postmastership at Ferns, county Wexford, Ireland; and, if so, will he state was this vacancy announced in the usual way in the Post Office Circular; if not, what was the reason for withholding the announcement; how many applications for this position were received from members of the Irish postal service, and what was the length of service of each applicant; what is the length of service of the man appointed to the position; and what are his qualifications for the same.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The vacancy was advertised in the usual way in the Post Office Circular. There were seventy-three
    1154
    candidates, of whom twenty-five were in the Irish postal service. The officer whom I appointed was the senior of the recommended candidates, and I selected him as the most suitable. His service dates from July 1886. I may perhaps add that a sorting clerk and telegraphist from Ireland was quite recently appointed to a postmastership in England.

    English and Irish Postmasterships
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will supply a Return showing the number of Irish postmasterships given to English postal officials, and of English postmasterships given to Irish postal officials during the past ten years.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The Return suggested by the hon. Member would be misleading, since it would suggest a separation which fortunately does not exist between the Post Office Service in England and Ireland. By "English postal official" I presume that the hon. Member means a postal official occupying a post in England. If that is his meaning, many "English postal officials" are Irishmen.

    Southport Post Office.
    MR. GODDARD: To ask the Postmaster-General, having regard to the fact that there exists a rule in the postal service stating that the relatives of superior officials are not to be appointed in the same offices, whether it is intended to apply the rule to the Southport office, in view of the fact that the son of the postmaster is stationed there at present.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) Yes, it is intended to apply the rule in question to the Southport Post Office. The officer referred to was allowed to serve temporarily in the Southport office during a period of convalescence, but instructions had already been issued for him to return at an early date to the office to which he is permanently attached.

    Appointments for Learners in Central Telegraph Office, London.
    MR. CREMER: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that learners in the

    1155
    Central Telegraph Office, London, after having passed the necessary tests, have had their appointments withheld on the grounds that youths who were higher in the list at the literary examination had not received appointments; if so, will he say whether it is the intention of the Department that learners who show special aptitude in telegraphy should not receive the benefit of their industry; and whether he will inquire into the circumstances of the cases.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The general practice throughout the service is that, when a vacancy occurs in the established class, a selection is made amongst the learners who have qualified in telegraphy, and the one who stood highest in the literary examination is appointed. I am aware that in some cases the preference has been given to the learner who passed the test in telegraphy first; but I consider that the general practice, as I have described it, should be maintained.

    Education Act—Appointed Day in Monmouthshire
    MR. MCKENNA: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether the appointed day for the Education Act to come into operation in Monmouthshire is now the 1st of June.
    (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The appointed day for the area of the county of Monmouthshire will be 1st June, unless the county council should express a desire for a postponement, in which case the Board would be ready to consult the wishes of the council.

    Electric Railway Signals for use in Fogs.
    MR. SLOAN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a new railway signal recently invented in the form of an electric bell; and if there is any intention of it being substituted for the old style of fog signals now used.
    (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) Inventions of this character have been brought to the notice of the Board's inspecting officers from time to time, and, if detailed information as to this particular invention is furnished, they will be glad to have the opportunity of seeing it.
    1156
    The Board have called the attention of the railway companies to the question of the adoption of some mechanical system of fog-signalling, and I am informed that certain companies are making experimental trials of various forms of apparatus. It should be observed that, unless a thoroughly reliable apparatus is produced, grave danger might arise from its use.

    Local Government Act, 1888—Counties with Whole Time Medical Officer of Health.
    MR. FREDERICK WILSON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will grant a Return specifying the counties which up to the present have appointed a whole-time medical officer of health under the provisions of The Local Government Act. 1888.
    (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) A Return was obtained in 1896, "showing the salaries and other remuneration and the terms of appointment of medical officers of health appointed by county councils in England and Wales." If the hon. Member moves for a Return in continuation of this, I shall be happy to assent to its being granted.

    Proposed Erection of Sheds on Island facing Kew Gardens
    MR. SKEWES-COX: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he is aware of a proposal to embank and enlarge an osier bed, known as Lot's Eyot, in the Thames immediately opposite the principal riverside entrance to Kew Gardens, Queen Elizabeth's Lawn, and Palace, and to construct on the eyot a dock and iron sheds for building and repairing barges; whether the Board of Agriculture, in the interests of the amenities of Kew Gardens and the enjoyment of the public, has communicated its views to the Thames Conservancy: and, if so, with what result.
    (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) An application by the Thames Lighterage Company for permission to enlarge Lot's Eyot and to construct a barge dock on its south-east side has been made to the Thames Conservancy, but I believe that no decision has as yet been arrived at with respect to it. We have for some

    1157
    time past been in communication with the Conservancy and other public bodies on the subject, and have represented to them that the erection of works as proposed would seriously affect the repose and quiet of Kew Gardens, a unique national establishment which has a strong hold on the affections of the public.

    Pekin Syndicate—Railway Negotiations with Chinese Government.
    MR. YERBURGH: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in what position the negotiations with the Chinese Government concerning the railways of the Pekin Syndicate now stand.
    (Answered by Earl Percy.) The only railway with regard to which the Pekin Syndicate is negotiating is the Taokow Tsechow Railway. The negotiations at Shanghai between the agent of the Syndicate and the Director-General of Railways are still proceeding.

    Bank of Ireland and Government Balances.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM (Cork County, N. E.): To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the Bank Act of 1892 deals only with the remuneration to be paid the Banks of England and Ireland for their management of the Debt, and in relation to Exchequer Bonds and Treasury Bills; and if he will state what arrangements, outside the Act, have been made between the Treasury and the Bank of Ireland in respect of the benefit derived by that bank from the use of Government balances which, in the ordinary course, it lends out to its customers at interest.
    CAPTAIN DONELAN: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with the terms of the arrangement made by the Government with the Bank of Ireland under which special consideration was given to the benefit derived by the bank from the use of the Government balances, it was agreed that the same arrangement was to extend to all banking business and to all future balances arising out of the operation of any and every Act of Parliament that might be passed after the date of such arrangement; and, if so, will he
    1158
    state what are the specific terms of the arrangement now subsisting.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The remuneration payable under The Bank Act, 1892, to the Bank of Ireland for management of the Public Debt was fixed after an inquiry which extended to all the transactions of the bank on behalf of the Government. The remuneration was fixed at such rates as, together with the benefit accruing from the use of the Government balances, was thought to be sufficient to afford the bank fair payment for its work both in managing the Debt and in keeping the public accounts. The arrangement of 1892 contemplated that the Government accounts in Dublin should continue to be kept with the Bank of Ireland as they had been for many years before. No specific agreement on that point was required.

    War Office Stores—Duty on Ether
    MR. ERNEST GRAY: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that ether from pure spirit should be used in the manufacture of certain articles required by the War Office; that this spirit is subject to a heavy duty, and hence, if the article is to be manufactured at a reasonable price, methylated ether must be substituted for the pure, or the contract sent abroad where manufacturers obtain spirit duty free for manufacturing purposes; and whether, under these circumstances, he would consider the desirability of permitting the manufacture of such goods in bond under practicable conditions, or of allowing in the price paid by the War Office for the duty received by the Excise.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) Section 8 of the Finance Act of 1902 appears to cover such cases as the hon. Member has in view. Manufacturers desiring to be allowed the benefit of that section should address an application to the Board of Inland Revenue, by whom it will be carefully considered.

    Sum expended under Class 5 of Civil Service Estimates on Transvaal and Orange River Colonies
    MR. REA: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what was the total sum expended

    1159
    under Class 5 of the Civil Service Estimates on the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies in the years 1901–2 and 1902–3 respectively, including any grants-in-aid.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) Civil Service Estimates. 1901–1902. Class 5. Vote 3.—Transvaal non-effective charges, £946 2s.; Transvaal Special Commission, £2.899 3s. 4d.; Transvaal Concessions and Land Settlement Commissions, £494 9s. 7d.* Vote 6.—Grant-in-Aid of the Revenues of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, £6,500,000†. 1902–1903. Class 5. Vote 3.—Grant-in-Aid of the Revenues of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, £1,800,000; Supplementary, £1,000,000; Transvaal non-effective charges, £897 7s. 8d. Vote 8.—Grant-in-Aid of the Revenue of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, £8,000,000‡; total, £17,305,237 2s. 7d.

    Return of Receipts and Expenditure of the Irish Society.
    MR. O'DOHERTY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant the Return with reference to the honourable the Irish Society on the Notice Paper of this day.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The preparation of the suggested Return would entail an expenditure of time and labour which would not be commensurate with results, and I regret I am unable, therefore, to agree to it.
    The Return referred to is as follows: Irish Society of London.—Return of the
    * Of this sum £287 14s. 8d. has been repaid (Concessions Commission).
    † The items are: Civil Administration Transvaal Deficit, £1,500,000 (1); South African Constabulary Maintenance and Equipment, £2,600,000; Railways—(a) Estimated excess of cost of working and maintenance over receipts. £1,000,000 (4); (b) Rolling Stock. £1,000,000 (2); Relief and resettlement, £500,000 (3); £3,000,000 repaid out of Transvaal Guaranteed Loan, viz., (1), (2), (3); £1,000,000, viz. (4), was paid over to the War Office as the railways were under military management.
    ‡ The items are:—(a) Free grants to burghers under terms of surrender, £3,000,000; (b) Grants to other persons in respect to war losses, £2,000,000; (c) Loans to supplement grants under (a) and (b), £3,000,000; £8,000,000, viz. (c) has been repaid out of the Transvaal Guaranteed Loan.
    1160
    Receipts and Expenditure of the honourable the Irish Society of London for the years ending February, 1882, down to February, 1904, both inclusive (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 144, of Session 1878).

    Dredging of Irish Harbours
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Board of Works dredger will be sent to Courtown as soon as it has finished its work at Howth and Dunmore, and in view of the number of harbours on the south-east coast of Ireland that require dredging, the Government will provide the Board of Works with another dredger or two for the assistance of the fishermen on the south-east coast of Ireland during the lifetime of the present generation.
    (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The dredger will be required at the Royal Harbours of Dunmore and Howth until the end of the working season. The Board of Works are not charged with the duty of dredging harbours not in their care, and cannot be provided with dredgers for that purpose.

    Applications for Restoration to Holdings by Evicted Tenants in Carlow.
    MR. HAMMOND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the names of those evicted tenants of Carlow County who have, up to the present time, made application to the Estate Commissioners for restoration to their former holdings, as also the title of the estates with which they had been severally connected.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I have communicated this information to the hon. Member.

    Kilkee Sanitary Affairs.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Town Commissioners of Kilkee have taken advantage of The Local Government Act, 1890, to be constituted an urban council; and, if not, whether he can say what body has legal authority over the the sanitary

    1161
    affairs of Kilkee and powers to appoint town inspectors and other officers.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The reply to the first part of the Question is in the negative. The sanitary authority is the Kilrush Rural District Council under whose control are the sanitary and sanitary sub-officers. The Town Commissioners, as such, are empowered to appoint a town surveyor, inspector of nuisances, clerk, collector, etc.

    Teaching Diplomas for Students of St. Patrick's Training College
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that teaching diplomas have not yet been granted to all those teachers presently in the service who were one year students in St. Patrick's Training College during the session 1899–1900, though the reports of the inspectors upon the efficiency of their schools have been on the whole satisfactory for the past two years; and, if so, will he direct that all such omissions on the part of the Education Department will receive immediate attention, and that deserving teachers be sent their diplomas without delay.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The number of such teachers who have not yet been granted training diplomas is sixteen. In the majority of these cases the reports of the inspectors in respect to the efficiency of the teachers are not, I am informed, satisfactory. The other cases are under consideration, and diplomas will be issued as soon as possible.

    Ireland—Liability of Landlords of Small Holdings for Rates.
    MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that a number of urban councils throughout Ireland have forwarded resolutions to the Local Government Board, asking the Board to take steps to have the Local Government (Ireland) Act so amended as to make landlords of small holdings liable for rates, as formerly, owing to the loss and difficulty experienced at present in collecting them; and, if so, does he intend to take steps to remedy this evil during the present session.
    1162
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I have already stated that the Act of 1898 was based on the principle that the occupier should be rated, and that the Agricultural Grant was fixed upon this understanding. The fundamental change suggested is neither practicable nor desirable.

    Disposal of Site of Duke of York's School.
    MR. WHITMORE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can now state whether any decision has been arrived at as to the disposal of the site of the Duke of York's Military School at Chelsea.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) No decision has been arrived at as to the disposal of the site of the Duke of York's School at Chelsea.

    Cost of Somaliland Operations
    MR. LAMBERT: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state the total cost of the military operations in Somaliland, including the £500,000 Estimate for this year.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The total estimated cost of the military operations in Somaliland, from 1st October, 1902 (the date from which the charges have been borne by Army Votes) to 31st March. 1904, amounts to £2,100,000. The Estimate of £500,000 for the current financial year includes a sum of £230,000 for the cost of the garrison to be retained in Somaliland after the withdrawal of the expeditionary force. The balance of £270,000, plus the £2,100,000 already referred to, brings the total cost of the campaign to £2,370,000.

    Natives Employed by Members of Witwatersrand Native Labour Association.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the number of natives employed in the Transvaal gold mines under the auspices of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, on the last day of each month, for each month of 1903 and of 1904 (as far as available).
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttleton.) The figures given for 1903 in the statement

    1163
    by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association showing the numbers of natives employed by members of the association (published by the Chamber of Mines in their Annual Report for 1903) are:—1903—January, 50,225; February, 52,759: March, 57,806; April, 60,872; May, 63,832; June, 66,479; July, 68,821; August, 70,892; September, 71,472; October, 72,358; November, 72,978; December, 73,218. I have no other figures for 1904 than those given in my reply to the hon. Member of 9th May.†

    Transvaal Labour Ordinance—Repatriation of Wife and Family of a Labourer.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Section 33 (2) of the Transvaal Ordinance, which casts on the employer the liability for the cost of repatriating the wife and family of the indentured labourer at the end of his indenture, has now been so amended by Regulation No. 34 (Cd. 1986, p. 6), that the employer will only be liable for the expense of returning the wife and children of the labourer in case the labourer dies, or if any of the events detailed in Clauses 25, 26, and 27 of the Ordinance happen during the period of his service which render him liable to be repatriated.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) There is nothing in Regulation 34 which can override the requirements of the section of the Ordinance referred to.

    Transactions of Crown Agents for 1903.
    MR. GEORGE WHITE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will cause a Return to be made and presented to this House of all the several transactions of the Crown Agents for the Colonies for the year 1903, giving the nature and date of each transaction, the amount of money involved, the commission charged upon the several transactions, the salaries and fees of each person employed in this work, specifying any who receive any payment voted by this House, and such other information as will enable this House to judge of the system, nature, and cost of the business done by the Crown Agents.
    1164
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) A Return is being prepared in reply to the Address of the House ordered on the 2nd instant on the Motion of the hon. Member for Liverpool (East Toxceth), and a separate Paper is being prepared as to the Crown Agents' Office Funds, which has been promised in reply to a Question of the hon. Member for the Chesterfield Division of Derbyshire. These Returns will furnish a great deal of information of the kind referred to at the end of this Question, and it would be quite impracticable to give a Return of all the Crown Agents' separate transactions for any year. There is no person employed in the Crown Agents' Office who receives any payment charged on any Vote of Parliament, as the whole remuneration of the Agents and their staff is paid out of a fund derived from the authorised commissions and fees paid by the Colonial Governments for whom they act.

    Disturbances in British New Guinea.
    THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any information from the Governor-General of Australia regarding the disturbances in British New Guinea; and, if so, whether he can make any statement in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I received a telegram from the Governor-General of Australia on the 10th May stating that he was forwarding a despatch by mail giving particulars regarding the recent disturbances in British New Guinea.

    Transvaal Labour Ordinance—Position of Negotiations with Chinese Government.
    SIR JOHN LENG: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the convention with the Chinese Government relative to the importation of indentured labourers into the Transvaal has been signed; if not, will he state what are the objections of that Government to the terms of the convention, and the present position of the negotiations.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The convention has not yet been signed. We are informed that the Chinese Government entertain no objection to its terms,

    1165
    and they have been urgently requested expedite the formal conclusion of the convention.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Naval Warlike Stores
    MR. J. H. LEWIS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what was the value of stocks of naval warlike stores remaining in hand on the 31st March, 1880, 1890, 1900, and 1903 respectively.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): The stock of naval warlike stores was first valued and inserted in Navy Appropriation Account for 1894–95. The figure for 1890 cannot, therefore, be given. The value of stock of naval warlike stores on 31st March, 1895, was £7,890,452; 31st March, 1900, £11,104,347; 31st March, 1903, £14,655,734.

    The Chinese Labour Ordinance.
    SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the convention with the Chinese Government relative to the importation of Chinese labourers into the Transvaal has been signed.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): I have just received information that the Chinese Minister in this country has received authority to sign the convention, and arrangements for the signature to-morrow afternoon have been made.

    Chinese Labour for the Transvaal— Cost of Housing Intending Emigrants at Hong Kong.
    SIR WALTER FOSTER: I beg to ask the Secretary of Stale for the Colonies whether any estimate has been made of the cost of housing intending Chinese emigrants for the Transvaal at Hong-Kong during their detention, for the building and maintenance of the isolation depôt near Kowloon, and for their medical inspection; and by whom the charges for this system of isolation and inspection will be defrayed.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I am not aware what the cost of providing for the labourers during their sojourn at Hong-Kong will be. It will be borne by the importer.

    Mercantile Association of Swaziland— Transvaal Duties.
    MR. JAMES BAILEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Mercantile Association of Swaziland, Limited, between 4th February and 15th September, 1903, were compelled by the Transvaal Government to pay £1,008 13s. 11d., and other sums since, for Customs duties on goods imported into Swaziland, and that after repeated applications for refund of those duties, the Government at Pretoria on 12th February, 1904, wrote that the Colonial Secretary was not then in a position to fix any date by which the Government would be able to deal with the Swaziland concession, but that it was understood that the Customs duties were paid under protest, subject to refund if it should appear that the Government were not entitled to recover dues; and, if so, can he say when a definite reply will be given.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I have not been specifically informed as to the sums which this Association has been called upon to pay for Customs duties but I am aware that the Government has not yet been able to give a definite reply as to the manner in which it proposes to deal with the concessions. I expect that it will be possible to give a reply at an early date, and I propose to receive a deputation of those who represent interests in Swaziland next week.

    Tibet Mission—Advance to Lhasa.
    MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that a telegraphic despatch was sent from the India Office to the Viceroy on 20th September, 1903, stating that a proposal to advance far into the interior of Tibet was regarded with grave misgiving by the Government, he will state what explanation can be given for the advance so far on the route to Lhasa, and for the

    1167
    continuance of military operations involving loss of the lives of British soldiers and Tibetan natives.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): The Viceroy was informed by telegram of 1st October that His Majesty's Government were prepared to authorise the advance of the Mission to Gyangtse if a complete rupture of the negotiations at Khambajong proved inevitable. On the 6th November, the negotiations having broken down and an overt act of hostility having been committed by the Tibetans, the advance of the Mission was sanctioned, subject to the restrictions imposed by the telegram of that date. The explanation of this advance is fully given in the Blue-book, but His Majesty's Government adhere to the limitations imposed by their telegram of 6th November last.
    MR. FLYNN: Is it the fact that on Monday or Tuesday the Amban said he had no orders from Chinese officials to assist the English troops in any way. Is it to be understood that this expedition is being proceeded with without the assent of the suzerain Power, China?
    MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir; as I have explained, the sanction of the suzerain Power was first obtained to conduct the negotiations in Tibet, and the suzerain Power is co-operating with us in endeavouring to bring these negotiations to a completion, but the advance of the Amban to Gyangtse has been obstructed by the Tibetan people.
    MR. FLYNN: Has the Chinese Government sanctioned this aggressive expedition so far into the interior of the country?
    MR. BRODRICK: The Chinese Government have sanctioned the conduct of negotiations in Tibet, and the exact place where the negotiations will be carried out must be a question for His Majesty's Government.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Do the Government still intend to prohibit the advance of the Mission as far as Lhasa?
    MR. BRODRICK: There is a Question on the Paper as to that. I will answer the two together.
    MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can state what is the present position of the expedition in Tibet; whether negotiations have further progressed since the expedition started; and whether it is proposed it shall advance or remain at Gyangtse; also, what precautions have been taken to guard the lines of communication.
    MR. BRODRICK: His Majesty's Government have arrived at the conclusion that recent events in Tibet make it inevitable that, unless the Tibetans consent to negotiate at Gyangtse, the Mission must advance to Lhasa. The Government of India have been authorised to give the Chinese Amban notice that if no competent Tibetan negotiator appears in conjunction with him at Gyangtse within a period to be fixed by the Government of India, we shall take steps to negotiate at Lhasa itself. The Government of India have at the same time been informed that His Majesty's Government do not intend in any way to depart from the policy laid down in the telegram to the Viceroy of the 6th November last. As to the lines of communication, the necessary measures are being taken by the Government of India.
    MR. LAMBERT: What precautions are being taken, if the Tibetans cut across the lines of communication, to secure the safety of the expedition itself?
    MR. BRODRICK: I hardly think the hon. Member will expect me to answer that Question, but the attention of the Government of India has been most carefully directed to preserving the lines of communication.
    MR. TREVELYAN (Elland): Who is going to be the judge of what a competent envoy from the Lhasa authorities will be?
    MR. LOUGH: May I ask how at Lhasa or any other place they will make a Power negotiate if they do not wish to do so?
    MR. BRODRICK: As regards the question of a competent negotiator, a negotiator will be competent who is of sufficient rank and is empowered by the Tibetan authorities. No one has yet been deputed by the Tibetan authorities to accompany the Amban.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: What increase in the number of troops will be necessary?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Franco-Siamese Treaty.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether by Clauses 10, 11, and 12 of the Franco-Siamese Treaty of the 13th February, alluded to in Lord Lansdowne's despatch covering the Anglo-French Agreement, France secures exceptionally favourable terms as regards the status of French protected subjects, who are in an increased degree placed under French jurisdiction; whether he can give the House any information as to the probability of the ratification of the Treaty of the 13th February, or a fresh modification of that treaty, in order that the House may be in a position to consider the agreements entered into with Siam by the French Government which are recognised by the Anglo-French Agreement.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): By the provisions of the Franco-Siamese Convention signed in February last, persons enjoying French protection are placed in the same position with regard to jurisdiction as French citizens. This treatment does not appear to be exceptional, as will be seen by reference to the Agreement between this country and Siam of 29th November, 1899, which contains categories of persons who are entitled to registration as British subjects and therefore under British jurisdiction in Siam. The answer to the second Question is in the negative.

    The Somaliland Operations.
    MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any further information
    1170
    as to the Somali Mullah; what number of rifles and amount of ammunition has been captured from him and remain still in his possession; and whether there is a possibility of a further supply of rifles and ammunition reaching him.
    EARL PERCY: The Mullah, with a small following, has been driven out of the Mijjarten territory and is now on the Sorl desert to the North-west of Illig—Illig itself being held by Ali Yusuf, Sultan of Obbia, a chief loyal to the Italian Government. Four hundred and twenty-four rifles have been captured from the Mullah, exclusive of those taken at Illig, the number of which has not yet been reported. The number of rifles at present in his possession is estimated at about 600. No exact report has been received as to ammunition, but it is believed that the Mullah has but little left. It is hoped that the precautions taken by His Majesty's Government, in conjunction with the Italian Government, will prevent any fresh supplies of rifles and ammunition from reaching the Mullah.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEasked when the necessary Supplementary Estimates would be laid before Parliament.
    THE DEPUTY-SPEAKFR: Order, Order! Notice must be given of that Question.

    Insanitary London Post Offices.
    MR. BAYLEY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the sanitary condition of the Smithfield Market Branch Post Office, where the employees' retiring room is an underground cellar of such a nature that the clerks employed there are allowed as a special case to go out for dinner, and to the lack of the necessary sanitary accommodation at the Great Tower Street Branch Office; and, if so, whether he will ask for a report on the sanitary condition of these two offices.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): The question of the sanitary condition of these two offices has been fully investigated on several occasions within

    1171
    the last few years; but in order that I may be fully informed as to their present condition, I have asked the principal medical officer to visit them and report on their sanitary condition.

    Kent Water Company's Well at Darenth.
    MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received a complaint, signed by twenty inhabitant householders, in accordance with the Metropolis Water Act, 1852, that the Kent Water Company's new well at Darenth, Kent, is visibly liable to intermittent pollution by surface drainage from adjoining land; whether he has any official reports showing that there is danger of the well being polluted by surface drainage; and when an inspector will be sent to inquire into the grounds for the complaints which have been made.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,): I have received the complaint mentioned, and am in correspondence with the water company on the subject. I am expecting a communication from them, and when I receive it I will deride as to the course to be taken with respect to an inquiry. No such reports as those referred to in the Question have been made to me.

    Income-Tax Abatements.
    MR. J. H. LEWIS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what is the estimated total amount of abatements on account of income-tax to which persons paying income-tax are entitled (whether they claim abatement or not) during the year ending the 31st March, 1904.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): There are no data available on which to estimate the abatements to which taxpayers, who make no claim, are entitled. Particulars for the year to 31st March, 1902, as to the numbers of persons claiming abatement, and of the amounts of income relieved by abatement in the several classes, will be found on page 213 of the last Annual Report of the Commissioners of Inland
    1172
    Revenue (Cd. 1717). The same particular cannot yet be given for any later year.

    Highland Crofting Counties—Inspectors of the Poor.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state whether there is an age limit for the appointment of candidates to the office of inspector of poor in the Highland crofting counties; and is there a medical examination as to physical fitness.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): The answer to both Queries is in the negative.
    MR. WEIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of men far advanced in years are pitch forked into these offices who are utterly unfit for the work?
    MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I am not aware of that.

    Fishery Researches—"Goldseeker's" Hauls of Fish.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state what quantity of fish, caught by the Fishery Board's scientific research boat "Goldseeker," was sold during the month of April, the names of the places where the sales were effected, the money realised, and how accounted for.
    MR. SCOTT DICKSON: About 156 boxes of fish caught by the "Goldseeker" were sold during the month of April, three of the sales were effected at Aberdeen and two at Newhaven; the money realised amounted to £102 13s. 5d., and this amount was deposited in the Bank of Scotland and will be accounted for to the Treasury. I may add that the quantity caught in April was quite exceptional.

    Island of Lewis and the Equivalent Grant.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received a memorial from the Lewis District Committee, pointing out that the allocation of the equivalent grant for education purposes will deprive the Lewis District Committee of the fund out of which the footpaths and footbridges connecting townships with the public schools have

    1173
    hitherto been maintained; and, seeing that children will be unable to get to school if these footpaths and footbridges are allowed to fall out of repair, will he state how he proposes to provide for their maintenance; and will he say what answer he proposes to make to the committee's memorial in favour of the equivalent grant being still administered by county councils in the Highland crofting counties.
    MR. SCOTT DICKSON: I have received the memorial referred to by the hon. Member, and it has been under consideration. I do not think it expedient, in anticipation of the Committee stage, to discuss a provision of the Bill (as to which I observe that the hon. Member has put down an Amendment) by way of answer to a Question.

    Irish Development Grant.
    MR. JOHN REDMOMD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has yet come to a decision as to the items to be included in the Supplementary Estimate for the Irish Development Grant Fund which he promised; and when he proposes to place that Estimate upon the Table.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): I propose to retain the items in the Estimate at present before the House. In respect, however, of the provision proposed for the improvement of the Tralee and Dingle Railway, the application of this money is dependent upon a satisfactory settlement being arrived at with the Great Southern and Western Railway Company on the merits of the scheme. With respect to new items, I would point out that sums not expended in any year pass out of the Guarantee Fund. It would be a mistake, under the circumstances, to authorise expenditure on insufficiently considered projects. This reservation, however, does not apply to the cost of reducing the existing average required for an assistant school teacher from sixty to fifty; but it does, in my judgment, apply to other items of expenditure on education—for example, the provision of free homes for provincial
    1174
    training colleges, which can only be considered as part of the general question of educational reform. There is another item which might be charged to the Development Grant, namely, a dredger. I am unable to name a day for the introduction of the revised Estimate.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: As this is a matter of enormous importance to Ireland, I trust the House will kindly allow me to put a supplementary Question. The right hon. Gentleman has said that sums not spent in the current year will pass out of the Guarantee Fund. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that they are no longer liable to charges by the Treasury in respect of the Land Act of 1903? and, further, with reference to the training colleges, was he to be understood as expressing the opinion that in the educational settlement which he seems to foreshadow it will be a fair thing that the training colleges should receive money towards their building fund?
    MR. WYNDHAM: My reply to the first Question is in the affirmative. For example, if £100,000 is not expended during this year, but goes over, it will pass out of the Guarantee Fund, and no charge in connection with land purchase will affect that £100,000. As to the second Question, without pledging myself in the matter, I frankly admit that the question of giving further assistance to the training colleges is one that will have to be considered in any attempt to deal with education.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: With regard to the item of £20,000 in the present Estimate for the Dingle and Tralee Railway, do the Government intend to maintain that, subject to an arrangement with the Great South and Western Railway or; the merits of the scheme? Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman differentiates this scheme from the Rosslare and Fishguard Railway?
    MR. WYNDHAMreplied in the affirmative.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: Do the Government intend to enter into no negotiations touching the Rosslare and Fishguard scheme?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I do not.
    MR. KILBRIDEabout the dredger?
    MR. WYNDHAM: It will be available for all parts of Ireland.

    Achonry School Managers
    MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing the estate on which the schools at Achonry, county Sligo, are situate has passed out of the hands of Captain Armstrong and into the hands of the Congested Districts Board, his right to nominate a manager, which arose from his ownership of the lands on which the schools stand, has also passed into the hands of the Congested Districts Board.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have nothing at present to add to my reply to the hon. Member's previous Question of Monday last on the subject†. The matter is receiving attention.

    Evicted Tenants in County Kerry.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state how many evicted tenants there are in the county Kerry; and how many have been restored under the Land Act of 1903.
    MR. WYNDHAM: There is no official information of the number of evicted tenants in Kerry. 346 applications for reinstatement have been received from the county, and these will be taken into consideration as soon as the Estates Commissioners have acquired untenanted land in the county.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Is it not the fact that although 346 applications have been received no single evicted tenant has yet been reinstated?
    MR. WYNDHAM: It is not possible to deal with these cases until the Commissioners have obtained untenanted land.
    † See page 767.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: But how about the men who have applied to What; be reinstated on their own lands?
    MR. WYNDHAM: It all depends whether or not the land is tenanted.

    Irish National Schools—Building Plans
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Board of National Education has decided on the new plans for schools, seeing that the matter has now been under consideration for a long period: and, if so, can he say whether information has been given to managers throughout the country who have been handicapped by the delay that has taken place.
    MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: At the same time, may I ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of applications that have been made by managers to the Commissioners of National Education for building grants since 1901; the number of grants made, and the number of applications unattended to; whether he is aware that, notwithstanding the fact that several of the old buildings have been condemned by the Board's inspectors, a number of applications are still unattended to; and whether he can state when the new plans will be ready and what is the cause of the delay.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I will at the same time reply to both Questions. Two hundred and seventy-two applications for building grants have been received from managers since 1st January, 1901. Grants have been made in seventy of these cases; twenty-two applications were rejected; twenty-two were withdrawn; in 107 cases the applicants have decided to await the issue of the revised plans; and in the remaining fifty-one cases inquiries are proceeding. No applications have been unattended to by the Commissioners. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury stated on the 26th May last year† that a decision on the recommendations of the Committee on Building Grants would be deferred until
    †See (4) Debates cxxii., 1791.

    1177
    the inquiry into the educational system in Ireland is completed. The Report on that inquiry is at present engaging the consideration of the Government.

    Kellysgrove Bog—Turf Thefts.
    MR. ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the action of the Ballinasloe Petty Sessions Court, who recently sentenced two women to one month's imprisonment with hard labour for taking a bag of turf valued at 3d. from Kellysgrove Bog; and whether, as it was stated in evidence that this turf was merely of a nominal value, and no previous charges had been made against these women, he will advise the remission of this sentence.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am informed that there have been many complaints of the larceny of turf in this district, and that the chairman of the rural district council stated from the Bench that these larcenies had become very prevalent. It does not come within my province to advise the remission of a term of imprisonment. Any application in this respect should be addressed to the Lord-Lieutenant.

    Mount Bellew Technical School
    MR. ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a technical school for boys was built at Mount Bellew, county Galway, by Very Rev. Canon Ronayne, partly by aid of a grant from the Education Board, partly from local resources, and partly by moneys provided by himself; that the county committee, at the end of the year 1902–3, voted a sum of £32 for equipment purposes, which was set down in the scheme for 1903–4 with sanction of the Department; that this school has been visited by the inspector, and no exception taken to the equipment; that the county committee have repeatedly reminded the Department of their recommendation to sanction the payment of the equipment provided; and whether, in view of these facts, the Department will now sanction the payment of the money expanded.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The facts are substantially as stated, except that the school is a national, not a technical one, and that the scheme contained a statement that the proposal to spend £32 on equipment would be considered after a visit and report by an inspector. There is no need to equip this school as a fixed centre of technical instruction, as the county committee supply the itinerant teachers, by whom the classes have been taught, with the necessary requisites for class instruction. The Department is not prepared, in the circumstances, to sanction the expenditure.

    Deportation of Irish Paupers.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how long Frank Milner, for whose removal from the West Derby Union to the Mountmellick Union a warrant was issued by the magistrates sitting at the Police Court, Dale Street, Liverpool, on the 12th of April last, has resided in England.
    MR. WYNDHAM: This is a Question that should properly be addressed to my right hon. friend the President of the English Local Government Board. However, I am making inquiry, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

    Proposed Recreation Ground at Mallow.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state why the Local Government Board have refused to grant the application of the Urban Council of Mallow for a Provisional Order to enable them to acquire land for the purpose of a recreation ground for the use of the inhabitants of the town and urban district, having regard to the fact that the estimated rates of the town have been decreased by twopence in the pound, and adequate provision has been made for new works, including working-class lodging-houses, improvement of the water supply and sewerage, and for such portion of the cost and maintenance of the recreation ground as might possibly fall upon the rates; and whether the

    1179
    Local Government Board will reconsider the matter and accede to the application of the urban council.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Provisional Order was refused because the necessity for the proposed recreation ground was not established at the local inquiry. The Board has not sanctioned any scheme for the improvement of the water supply and sewerage, both of which are in a very defective condition and in urgent need of improvement. These are matters that call for prior treatment. Moreover, the evidence taken at the inquiry showed that, contrary to the belief of the district council, the cost of providing a recreation ground would fall almost entirely on the rates.

    Earl of Kenmare's Estate
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the offer of the Earl of Kenmare to sell his estate to his tenants by townlands; whether the Estates Commissioners have any power to consider such a scheme involving separate bargaining by sections of tenants and the payment of different prices for sections of an estate; and whether he can take any steps to bring about a sale to those tenants at reasonable prices.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Commissioners have not received, so far, any application in respect of this property. They have power, in their discretion, to declare a convenient area of a large property to be a separate estate.
    MR. MURPHY: Having regard to the unrest and agitation caused by this and similar points, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his attitude and try to give more satisfactory replies?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Irish Local Government Board Report.
    MR. SHEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state when the Annual Report of the Local Government Board for the year ending 31st March. 1904, will be laid upon
    1180
    the Table of the House; at what time are these Reports usually published; is there delay in their publication; if so, to what is it attributable; and, seeing how important it is that the Report for the past year should be in the hands of Members before the introduction of the Labourers Bill, will he take steps to secure its immediate publication.
    MR. WYNDHAM: It is not possible at present to name a date for the presentation of the Report for 1903–4, but its preparation will be pressed forward and no avoidable delay will take place in completing it. The Report for 1900–1 was presented in August, 1902; that for 1901–2 in May, 1903; and the Report for 1902–3 last month. Any delay that may have taken place previously in presenting the Report is attributable to the operation of the Act of 1898, which revolutionised the system of the keeping of the accounts by local authorities, besides calling hundreds of local bodies into existence. A Return is in preparation and will shortly be laid on the Table in continuation of the Return granted last year on the Motion of the hon. Member for West Kerry. This Return will give full information in respect of labourers' cottages made up to the 31st March, 1904.

    Trinity College Head Rents
    MR. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Trinity College, Dublin, have demanded, as head landlords, twenty-six to twenty-seven years purchase from Mr. Blacker Douglas, who is a middleman holding under Trinity College and whose property is situate near Listowel, North Kerry; and, if so, whether he can state what steps he has taken or will take in connection with the price demanded by Trinity College for the redemption of their head rent; and whether he can state the average number of years purchase fixed by the Land Commission in past years for the redemption of head rents.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Land Commissioners have no knowledge of the fact alleged in the first part of the Question. Under Section 64 of the Act of 1903 the value of a superior interest is fixed, in

    1181
    the event of the failure of the parties to agree to a redemption price, by the Judicial Commissioner or the Land Judge. Under former Purchase Acts the redemption price of head rents was fixed by arbitration, unless the parties agreed. In cases fixed by arbitration the price has varied from thirty to eighteen times the rent.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Have the Estates Commissioners in considering this application any power to consider the special grant of £5,000 made to Trinity College with a view to facilitating operations under the Land Act?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I do not see where the Estates Commissioners come in. If the parties cannot agree as to the value of the head rent they will go before the Land Court.
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: But in the event of non-agreement and the Land Court or Land Commission being called in as arbitrators, have they no power to consider the annual grant made by the House to Trinity College for this express purpose?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot say whether that ought or ought not to be taken into account.
    MR. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole interest of Mr. Blacker Douglas, the middleman, will be absorbed if Trinity College do not abate their demand?
    MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I shall call attention to this matter on the Land Commission Vote.
    MR. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Blacker Douglas, although willing, cannot sell to the tenants because of the exorbitant price demanded by Trinity College?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Marquess of Drogheda's Kildare Property
    MR. KILBRIDE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the tenants on the Marquess of Drogheda's property in
    1182
    Kildare have agreed to buy their holdings at a certain number of years purchase; and, if so, whether, before the sale is sanctioned by the Estates Commissioners, due inquiry will be made with regard to the evicted tenants on the estate with a view to their reinstatement.
    MR. WYNDHAM: No application in respect of this property is before the Estates Commissioners. Any applications made by evicted tenants for reinstatement will be considered.

    Police Arrangements in County Fermanagh.
    MR. JORDAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the constabulary have been permanently removed from the village of Blacklion, in the county of Cavan, to the village of Belcoo, in the county of Fermanagh; and, if so, will he consider the advisability of abolishing also as unnecessary the constabulary stations, or either of them, in the rural districts of Carngreen and Letterbreen, in the county of Fermanagh.
    MR. WYDNHAM: The police station at Blacklion has been abolished and some of the police stationed there were removed to Belcoo. It is not considered desirable at present to disestablish either of the police stations at Carngreen or Letterbreen.

    Architect of College of Science, Dublin.
    MR. MOONEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if the Treasury, when making the appointment of architect for the proposed new buildings of the College of Science, Dublin, consulted with the Board of Works, Ireland, and the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction; and, if so, did these bodies, or either of them, suggest that an Irish architect should be employed for this work.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I have already stated that the responsibility for this appointment rests with the Board of Treasury; and I am unable to add anything further as to the selection.
    In reply to a further Question, Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH said communications

    1183
    passed between the different Departments on the subject, but the Treasury accepted full responsibility for the appointment.
    MR. MOONEY: I shall put another Question on this.

    Valentia Harbour Telegraph Station
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to state what steps have been taken to continue the telegraph office at Valentia Harbour, county Kerry, during the fishery season.
    LORD STANLEY: It has not been proposed to open a temporary telegraph office this year at Valentia Harbour. When such an office was opened it was at the request and expense of the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, but this year the company have not proposed the service.
    MR. FLAVIN: Is this one of the boons conferred on the locality by the railway amalgamation?
    LORD STANLEY: I know nothing of that.
    MR. FLAVIN: Is the noble Lord aware that this is one of the most important fishing districts in the West of Ireland? Will he reconsider this?
    LORD STANLEY: I have had no request for the opening of the office, but if I receive one I will certainly consider it.

    Derry Shipbuilding Yard
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that there is a shipbuilding yard in the city of Derry; and that, owing to absence of work, the yard is of little value to the locality; and, if so, whether he can see his way to recommend the Navy Department to distribute a reasonable share of work to Derry in future.
    MR. PRETYMAN: The existence and facilities of this firm are known, and have been noted at the Admiralty in the event of repairs within their capacity being required to vessels in that locality. Any application that they may send to tender
    1184
    for such work will be favourably considered.

    5th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles
    MR. WOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he has received any communication from the Downpatrick Town Commissioner as to the training of the 5th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles at Downpatrick; can he state why this regiment is not trained at Downpatrick, which is the headquarters of the battalion; and if he can give an undertaking that in future the training will be carried out at Downpatrick.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT,): No communication has been received at the War Office from the Downpatrick Town Commissioner. The matter is one for the General Officer Commanding concerned to decide, with whose discretion I am not prepared to interfere.

    Irish Legislation
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state approximately when the Second Reading will be taken of the Irish Land Act Amending Bill and the Labourers Bill.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): The hon. Member is aware that it is impossible to take these Bills before the Whitsuntide holidays, and he understands that it would be generally inconvenient to take them in the week in which the House reassembles. I am, however, extremely desirous to pass the Second Reading as early as I can, but I do not know that. I can make any specific statement as to dates.

    British Guiana Immigration Ordinance.
    SIR HENRY FOWLER: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether The British Guiana Immigration Ordinance, 1891, was enacted by the local Legislature with the approval of the Colonial Office in 1891; whether its operation was suspended at the request of the Government of India until an officer appointed by them had visited the

    1185
    Colony; whether, after the Government of India (during the Viceroyalty of Lord Lansdowne) had expressed their approval of the Ordinance, it came into force in 1894; and whether the Ordinance of 1891 was not a consolidation of all the then existing Ordinances relating to Indian immigration into British Guiana.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Ordinance to which the right hon. Gentleman refers was enacted in 1891 by the local Legislature. It was not, however, previously submitted or approved by the Colonial Office, or by the then Secretary for the Colonies, Lord Knutsford. It was suspended by Lord Knutsford, but not, as I am informed, on the initiative of the Indian Government, which appears to be the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. It was first allowed to come into operation by Mr. Gladstone's Government in 1894. The Act was both consolidating and amending.
    SIR HENRY FOWLER: I do not propose now to enter into any arguments as to the facts, but will the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements after Whitsuntide for the putting down of the Colonial Office Vote on an early day in order to give me an early opportunity to repudiate on behalf of Lord Ripon and myself the charges so freely made against us in relation to this Ordinance.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I shall be delighted to do my best to arrange Supply to meet the views of the right hon. Gentleman, who, I suppose, represents his colleagues and a large body of opinion on the other side of the House. But I do not quite know what are the charges to which he refers.
    SIR HENRY FOWLER: I refer to the speech in the Albert Hall.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Oh!
    SIR. HENRY FOWLER: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that a copy of the regulations under which the Ordinance was put in force is laid on the Table?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consult with
    1186
    my right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary as to the exact Papers he desires.

    The Cunard Subsidy.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I desire to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he has been able to make arrangements for discussion on the Cunard Money Committee. A large sum of money is involved, and many Members on both sides of the House desire to take part in the discussion.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not know what the limits of the discussion on the Resolution will be; but the House will remember that all that now has to be done is to provide the money to carry out an obligation for which this House, and not the Government alone, is responsible. I cannot promise a day before the Whitsuntide holidays.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The Resolution of the House to which the right hon. Gentleman refers was taken on the last day of the session, when only ninety-two Members on the Government side of the House were present.

    The Tibetan Expedition.
    MR. FLYNN: I desire to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, the announcement just made that the Tibetan expedition has been ordered to Lhasa.
    THE DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think the Motion of the hon. Member is covered by one appearing in the Order-book in the name of the hon. Member for Hampstead and asserting that "it is not desirable to send an armed Mission to a friendly State in order to secure the fulfilment of a treaty."
    MR. FLYNN: May I submit that my Motion is not covered by that of the hon. Member for Hampstead, because the expedition to Lhasa has only just been sanctioned. It is a new and unexpected development of the policy of the Government, and in direct contradiction to the statement of the Prime Minister.
    MR. LOUGH: May I also point out that the Motion of the hon. Member for Hampstead refers to an expedition going into a friendly State. The hon. Member for Cork wishes to raise the question of the advance of an expedition already in the friendly State.
    THE DEPUTY - SPEAKER: The greater contains the less. The Motion of the hon. Member for Hampstead takes a wider view than that of the hon. Member for North Cork—that is all.
    MR. LAMBERT: Will the First Lord of the Treasury give a day for the discussion of the new policy?
    THE DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Member must give notice of that Question.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Mr. HALSEY reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures—Mr. Grant Lawson, and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Hare.
Report to lie upon the Table.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Mr. HALSEY reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Law, and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure—Mr. Solicitor-General; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Attorney-General.
Report to lie upon the Table.

SUPPLY [9TH ALLOTTED DAY].
(Considered in Committee.)
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1904–5.

  CLASS II.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £10,259, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge
  1188
  which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners in Lunacy in England."
  SIR JOHN TUKEsaid he had moved this reduction in order to draw attention to the inadequate constitution of the English Lunacy Commission, and to certain defects in action consequent upon this inadequacy. In order to guard himself, he wished to say in the first place that he did not desire to attack individuals. He believed that the various members of the Commission were eminent and hard-working men, and that any imperfection in work followed entirely on the paucity of their numbers. What was the constitution of the Commission? It was presided over by an unpaid chairman, and there were four unpaid Commissioners. There were three medical and three legal Commissioners paid at the rate of £1,500 per annum. The duties of the unpaid Commissioners were confined entirely to the office. The main duty of the paid Commissioners was to visit and report on 114,000 registered lunatics in England and Wales. In order to develop his argument, he trusted he might be allowed to compare the condition of things in Scotland. In Scotland there was one unpaid chairman, two medical Commissioners with £1,200 per annum, two deputy Commissioners at £600, and two unpaid legal Commissioners. The duty of this Board was to supervise the interests of 14,500 registered insane persons. Thus, in England, three medical Commissioners supervised 114,000 patients; whereas, in Scotland, four medical Commissioners supervised 14,500. Putting it otherwise, in England there was one Commissioner to 38,000 lunatics; in Scotland one Commissioner to 3,622; thus, the supervising power in Scotland was ten times more than in England. He might be told that there was another supervising body in England—the Chancery Visitors in Lunacy. But they did not come into the equation in any way whatever. Their duties were confined to looking after the interests of wards in Chancery, and had nothing to do with the discipline or

  1189
  management of lunatic asylums as a whole. They might be put out of count. With these figures they were forced to one of two conclusions; either that Scotland was ridiculously overmanned or that England was seriously undermanned. He was going to say scandalously undermanned, and on the whole he felt justified in using that expression. He hoped he would be permitted to adduce the result of forty years experience to show that Scotland was in lunacy matters not overmanned, and he would adduce four reasons gained from personal experience to support his opinion.
  First as to the character of the supervision. In Scotland each lunatic resident in an asylum was visited twice in each year by a medical Commissioner who performed his duty thoroughly. In England there was only one visitation except in private asylums. He was going to say leisurely, were it not that that expression might lead to misconception; but the fact was, that twice in each year each patient had an opportunity of laying his case before the Commission who attended to it carefully, and gave it real consideration. In the second place, he wished to adduce the fact that no action at law had for forty years come before the Scottish Courts, either under the Lunacy Acts or under the common law. Thirdly, they never experienced lunacy scares in Scotland. They had no scandals and outbursts of popular feeling or adverse Press comments. Fourthly, he was warranted in the assertion that there was as much public confidence in asylums and their administration in Scotland as there was in general infirmaries and hospitals, and that was saying a good deal. All the conditions engendered a feeling of confidence between the Board of Lunacy and the asylum authorities. Commissioners would act at once should occasion arise. They would take steps to abate any scandal, but in his long experience he had never known of any serious case demanding intervention. And further, there was a confidence established between the Commissioners and the asylum authorities on the one hand, and the public on the other. Under all these circumstances they were able to work elastically under much milder law than existed
  1190
  in England; and this in its turn worked beneficially for the insane, for, after all, he thought, it would not be gainsaid that their benefit was, or should be, the first object of legislation. The lunatic was not made for the law, but the law for the lunatic.
  Now, on the face of it, he thought it would be generally admitted that it was physically impossible for the same kind and quality of supervision to be carried out in England as in Scotland. Was it possible for a Commissioner, however competent, distinguished, and hardworking, to overcome ten times the amount of work done by his brother across the Tweed and get equally good results? It was curious and interesting to note the fact that this numerical inadequacy of the English Commission was getting worse and worse. He did not propose going back into the history of the dark ages or the eighteenth century when humanitarian feeling had not been aroused, as shown by the state of our prisons, by the condition of our madhouses, and by the cruel administration of the criminal law. Public feeling was aroused at the end of the century by the great Frenchman Pinel, and by a sturdy Quaker of York whose name he had the honour to bear, although he could not prove any close relationship. Partly as a result of their action, in 1832 rive physicians and two barristers were appointed as a sort of Commission, and these numbers were increased in 1842 to seven physicians and four barristers. Still things did not work satisfactorily, and on the suggestion of Lord Ashley, subsequently Earl of Shaftesbury, a Royal Commission was appointed, on the recommendation of which the present Board of Commissioners in Lunacy was established in 1845. He was quite content to support his argument from that date. Under that Act the Commission was established exactly on the lines on which it existed at the present day. In 1842 there was reason to believe, although accurate statistics were not available, the number of lunatics in England and Wales was 25,000. Accurate statistics were only arrived at in 1859, when 37,000 lunatics were on the register. In 1870 there were 54,000, and in 1903, 114,000. Thus, medical Commissioners had to do four times the amount of work at the present day that

  1191
  they had to perform at the date of the establishment of the Commission. This stagnation must, he thought, appear extraordinary to the House, which he could not help thinking would be anxious to increase the number.
  Now he would be reminded, of course, that besides three medical Commissioners, there were three legal Commissioners. He admitted to the full that legal Commissioners were absolutely necessary on the Commission. They could not be dispensed with as representing the law and the public. In the board room their presence was of the utmost importance. But what was their chief duty? It was to visit asylums along with the medical Commissioner. The legal Commissioner and medical Commissioner hunted in couples, the legal Commissioner knowing nothing more of medicine or of lunacy, or of asylum administration than policeman X. What was the theory of this visitation? It was a remnant of old tradition, the idea being that during visits at an asylum some points of law might arise which could only be settled by the legal Commissioner. He challenged the Commission to adduce a single case within, let him say, the last forty years, in which such an emergency had arisen. Any irregularity could be detected by the Commissioner and be reported and considered in the board room. As a matter of fact, the legal Commissioner only stood by. Patients were not presented individually, but en masse. He wrote a report, and, in fact, performed the work of a clerk. He had heard it suggested that he superintended the actions of the medical Commissioner, but this, he need hardly say, was a ridiculous assertion. He was useless for inspection purposes, he was an anachronism, and reminded him of the old story of the new commandant at Potsdam, who, on going his rounds, found a sentry in a curiously out-of-the-way position. He asked what was the object of this sentry. No one could answer him till the files of the orderly room were looked out and it was found that some fifty years before a Royal Princess had planted a tree which she desired to be taken care of and a sentry was posted. The Princess and the tree were both dead, but the sentry remained. He was convinced of the uselessness of these officers by his Scottish experience.
  1192
  There the legal Commissioners confined themselves to the board room and the inspection was carried out by one visiting medical Commissioner. He might be told that the inspection of a legal Commissioner gave confidence to the public. He had no hesitation in saying that there was not one in 10,000, perhaps not in 100,000, of the public that knew of his existence. As he had said, the legal Commissioner was an absolutely necessary component part of the Commission in the board room, but he was utterly useless in respect of inspection.
  He would ask the House to consider whether the performance of such duties as he had stated demanded the existence of three officers costing £4,500 per annum. Surely one or two standing counsels at £500 a year each, or, as in Scotland, without salary, would be sufficient, and he was assured that in Scotland there was no shirking of work, no perfunctory performance of duties of those unpaid officials. But he doubted very much whether they would ever see these officers extinguished, for they were likely to exist so long as the Lord Chancellor had in his gift three fat posts to distribute amongst barristers who from advancing years or for any cause desired to relinquish the active exercise of their profession. Now he believed, in fact he knew, an office undermanned to the extent that this was must work in wooden fashion. It must work bureaucratically, using the term in its worst sense. There was no sympathy, no elasticity; and, moreover, if worked under a hard law, and notwithstanding the rigidity of law and administration it did not command the same public confidence as bodies in Scotland.
  The first step to obtain public confidence was to establish thorough supervision. That could be done by breaking England and Wales up into some four or five different districts, with a registered Commissioner or Commissioners in each. He would not say that they had better Commissioners in Scotland, although they had many of great distinction. The success of their Commission was not dependent merely on this relative numerical superiority, but on the fact that Scotland was a small country, where practically everybody knew everybody. If England were broken

  1193
  up into four or five districts with resident Commissioners in each, these Commissioners would, by the mere force of propinquity, know the character of each institution under its jurisdiction, and obtain information as to the extent of unregistered and illegal establishments. As an illustration of what might be and was going on under existing circumstances, he would adduce the case of a man with no medical qualifications who was prosecuted early this year for maintaining an illegal establishment. He had continued doing this for thirteen years, and when detected he had seven patients, all of whom were in a most miserable condition. This was not a single case. This could not have occurred in Scotland or in any district with a limited area. He deplored for humanitarian and economic reasons the rapid increase of lunacy in Great Britain. The rate ran up by thousands a year and had more than doubled in thirty years. In England, in the decade 1893–1903, the annual average increase had been 2,414. Whilst admitting that causes other than that which he was about to adduce had been in action, the reason to which he was about to draw attention for the increase of lunacy was the main one. They were manufacturing chronic lunacy day by day in their asylums, and the fault did not lie at the door of the medical authorities of those institutions, than whom no more earnest and hard-working men existed. This was inevitable under the present condition of the law, and his argument was that they could not hope for any relaxation in this respect until public confidence was established, and the first step in this direction was the one he had indicated.
  It was not his intention to deliver a lecture on the nature and treatment of the diseases comprised under the generic term of insanity. He wished to point out that doctors were precluded from treating the diseases adequately during the two critical stages of the complaint—the beginning and the end of each case. They were able to do so properly and efficiently amongst the moneyed classes, and it would not be difficult to prove that, as a consequence, in these classes there was no increase of lunacy. They could treat them at their own homes or elsewhere, supply them with nurses
  1194
  and all the necessary accessories, but this meant money; but with the poorer classes they were obliged to leave matters to drift, and that in face of symptoms they knew must inevitably result in acute insanity. They had to wait till the case was so pronounced as to warrant certification, thus losing the most valuable time during which the disease was most readily amenable to treatment. If of every 100 cases presenting themselves they excluded twenty as incurable, as opprobria medicinœ, of the eighty left 60 per cent. were amenable to treatment and that without asylum treatment. He could only adduce a concrete case in support of this assertion. An institution for the treatment of incipient cases of insanity had been established by the Glasgow Town Council, and he found by their Report that between 1890 and 1903, 70 per cent. of cases treated were discharged cured. Acute alcoholism—in itself a ripe cause of insanity—but over and above a large number of incipient cases were treated to satisfactory conclusion without being sent to asylum. The London County Council was of the same mind. So convinced was that body of the necessity of such treatment that it promoted a Bill, introduced in another place last year for the establishment of houses for this class of patient. The County Council sought for powers exercised in Scotland and not in England. In Scotland they were prepared for the increase of such establishments inconsequence of general confidence in the Lunacy Board, but he doubted whether they were in England.
  He would allude very shortly to the other stage of the disease. A patient sent to an asylum was placed under the best conditions for recovery, but on his being discharged as recovered he was in many cases utterly neglected. No term of convalescence was allowed, no after care was possible except such as was afforded by one association in London, and accordingly large numbers relapsed and the asylum's recovery rate of, say 40 percent., became in practice reduced to something like 25. Until they ceased manufacturing dementia in the way he had explained, the number of lunatics must increase, and no material change could be brought about until confidence was established. The first means to that end was an efficient Lunacy Commission. They would goon building

  1195
  asylum after asylum for the reception of chronic cases. He gave way to no man in sympathy for the insane and in sympathy with their friends and relatives. But it was his duty to say that his opinion was that gross extravagance existed in asylum construction. He had conducted with good results an asylum in Scotland which cost about £200 per bed. Now they heard of £350 to £500, and even more, being expended, and this extravagance could only be arrested and controlled by efficient supervision. He did not wish to weaken his argument, but he had to confess that in Scotland they were not altogether free of charge. The whole lunacy question of Great Britain required examination—England mainly, Scotland to a rather less extent; and to this end he appealed to the Home Secretary with all diffidence to appoint a Select Committee to consider the question as a whole. It was no good undertaking it piecemeal. He confidently predicted that if such a Commission was established, very material and important changes would be recommended and, he trusted, acted on.
  He had adduced certain reasons which sufficiently warranted his making this appeal, but he had one more. During the last twenty-five or thirty years a vast change had come over the general conception of insanity, certainly as regards the medical profession, and he believed to a certain extent the public. The medical profession had advanced along with the advance in general medicine. As regards insanity it was difficult to express what this change was tersely, but in semi-technical terms he might say the insane person was no longer regarded as a psychological curiosity but as a pathological entity. He or she was a a very sick man or woman demanding hospital treatment, treatment which was denied by every general hospital or infirmary in the Kingdom.
  He feared he had trespassed too long on the indulgence of the Committee, but he felt justified in doing so in that the matter was one of national importance. He was no enthusiast. He spoke with deliberation from very long experience, and he knew that he should be supported by the great mass of his profession. He had no eloquence to depend
  1196
  on in advancing his claims except the eloquence of facts and figures. Again he begged to ask the Home Secretary to carefully consider the position. If the right hon. Gentleman would accede to his request, the right hon. Gentleman would do much to alleviate the most wretched and dire disease which man was heir to—a disease which more than any other affected the happiness of friends and relatives. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to remember that the nation was doing its best to stamp out tuberculosis and to eradicate cancer, but they were not doing their duty in respect of a disease which affected three per thousand of the country, and which if not arrested consigned its victim to a living tomb. He had spoken under a deep sense of responsibility. He was but a humble private Member of this House, but he thought he might say that no one in it was so intimately acquainted with the subject, and had he not done as he had done, he felt that he should have failed in his duty to the public.
  SIR MICHAEL FOSTERassociated himself warmly with the efforts of the previous speaker to obtain an improvement in the lunacy laws. The urgent necessity for a large increase of the Commissioners in Lunacy was beyond doubt. Whether there should be an increase in the number of head Commissioners or in the number of assistant Commissioners was a matter of detail, but there ought to be an increase in the number of medical Commissioners. It should be remembered that when the lunacy laws were introduced they were more or less based on the view that the case of a person of unsound mind was a hopeless one, and their main purpose was to protect the lunatic from ill-treatment, to protect the public against the lunatic, and to prevent a sane man from being taken for a lunatic. That motif still obtained, and the legal rather than the medical aspect was put in the fore part of our legislation. In no branch of science had there been greater progress during the last generation than in the knowledge of the brain and the central nervous system. That wonderful web of delicate fibre and cells was being gradually unravelled, and day by day they were getting a command over the brain which was unknown when

  1197
  the Lunacy Acts were introduced. Though medical science had reduced other diseases, notably tuberculosis, lunacy, if anything, was on the increase. Where was the fault? The fault was not in science. Science was ready to do all it could. One fault was the present state of the lunacy laws. If these did not hinder they certainly did not facilitate the application of science to lunacy, especially in the early stages. Great changes were needed. Besides an increase in the number of Commissioners, there was one very great change needed, and that was in the making known of cases of insanity in the early stages. At present an insane person could not be brought adequately under treatment without the certificate of two medical men, and that meant a petition and a declaration and a magistrate's order. That was virtually an advertisement of insanity, and as such it stood in the way of the desire of medical men to apply medical science to the cure of insanity in its early stages. The friends of the patient refused to avail themselves of the opportunity because the advertisement brought a stigma to the patient. These things were done much better in Scotland, where on the certificate of a responsible medical man placed in the hands of a householder, an insane person could be kept in a private house under proper treatment. Why should that not apply in England? We now had notification of infectious diseases, and there would be no difficulty in the notification of a change in the central nervous system; and mere notification would be a very different thing from the advertisement of the present system. The certificate declared a person to be of unsound mind, and that was interpreted as meaning that the person was incapable of taking care of himself. That was not a true view of the case. Insanity covered a whole group of changes in the central nervous system, some slight and others dangerous, but under the present system all cases had to be treated in exactly the same way. That ought not to be so, and he joined his hon. friend in urging most strongly on the Attorney-General the desirability of some inquiry into the whole matter.
  DR. FARQUHARSONsaid that in past days he had acted as godfather to this question in the
  1198
  House, but now that the real father had appeared he would gracefully take a backseat and follow him in advocating a complete and expeditious inquiry into the great questions connected with lunacy. He would prefer a Royal Commission to a Select Committee as being a more dignified and proper method of conducting so important an investigation, and from what he had heard from different authorities he had come to the conclusion that the case for inquiry was complete. Twelve years had elapsed since a consolidating Act was passed, and in 1900, by some extraordinary Parliamentary accident, a Lunacy Bill slipped through both Houses without a word of discussion. The Bill brought forward by the Lord Chancellor four years ago contained admirable provisions suggested by the Lunacy Commissioners, including one which proposed to extend to England the beneficent arrangement at present enjoyed in Scotland, by which cases on the border line of insanity were allowed to be treated in private homes for a period of six months, thus tiding over the time during which successful treatment was possible. By that system many persons were restored who would probably have become permanently insane if they had been sent to a lunatic asylum. There were many questions for consideration, such as the waste of public money under the present system, and whether lunacy was really on the increase, or whether it was merely that cases were diagnosed earlier and thus brought under the notice of the authorities at an earlier stage. Another question for inquiry was the necessity of having a variety of public institutions in which cases on the border-line of insanity might be carefully treated and studied, so as to give them the best chances of recovery. Insanity ought to be considered, not as a mysterious dispensation of Providence, a sort of judgment brought upon people by some malign influence from above or from below, but as a disease, and it should be studied in the same way as any other disease. Above all, they should wipe away once and for ever the wretched superstitution that there was something discreditable attaching to a man or his family if he should unfortunately come under the designation of

  1199
  "mad." There ought to be established special hospitals, or, at any rate, special wards, for the study of lunacy, and special pathological institutions. The London County Council, with great liberality and energy, and in a scientific spirit, had started a pathological institute, under the care and the superintendence of first-class scientific men, and a splendid scientific work was being done. The only drawback to that institution was its distance from London. It ought to be brought to the Metropolis, so that scientific men could attend day by day, and students hour by hour, to study the cases and the pathological results.
  Reference had been made to the Scotch domestic system, under which one-fifth of the insane people were boarded out in private houses, instead of being herded in lunatic asylums where they must be crystallised in their insanity by rubbing shoulders with people more mad than themselves. In that way cases on the border-line were given the best possible chance of recovering their mental balance. The same principle was adopted in some of the ordinary lunatic asylums. It occurred to him that it was much better for the inmates to have this calm and peaceful domestic life than to be herded together in asylums. They had heard something about notification. In his opinion the local authority should empower the medical officer of health to visit the lunatic, and if he considered further investigation necessary he should certify the case in the usual way. Under the present system they had to get two medical men to visit the patient, and by cross-examination they tried to find out whether he was mad or not and this was a very offensive method. When the doctor was examining he had to pretend that he had been called in to superintend the patient's general health. Consequently he had to try to deceive the patient, and very often the patient noticed this and deceived the doctor. After he had gone through this process of mental torture the justice of the peace came in and he might if he liked have the patent before him. After all this what condition did they expect the poor lunatic to be in by the time he arrived at the asylum? By that time the lunatic would become crystallised and hardened, and if he ever
  1200
  left the asylum at all he would be in a worse condition than when he went in.
  The Commission consisted of three doctors and three barristers, and the doctors had three times as many people to look after now than they had when they were first appointed. Their work had been increased by more cases and more complex conditions. One doctor had now to inspect from 800 to 1,000 persons per day, and he wished to state emphatically that this condition of things was nothing more than a mere farce. The object of the Commissioner going round to the asylums was to see whether the inmates were mad or not, and whether they were being improperly detained. They had also to see that the necessary sanitary arrangements were provided. When a Commissioner had to examine between 800 and 1,000 persons in one day, he did not think the word "farce" was too strong a term to apply to such a condition of things. In Scotland they had double the number of Commissioners. He joined with his hon. friends in asking for a full inquiry, and he believed the Lord Chancellor sympathised with them in this matter and would have no objection to a Royal Commission.
  MR. BRIGGsaid he intervened in the debate because the county council with which he was connected had forwarded a petition to the Government asking for the very same thing which had been demanded in the speeches of the two hon. Members who had preceded him. This county council had spent £1,276,908 in buildings and land, and therefore the Lunacy Commissioners ought to have some regard for the amount of money which the ratepayers were called upon to contribute for lunacy provision. This county council had now an asylum in course of erection which would cost £250,000 or £646 per head of the people to be accommodated. They had also been obliged to provide farm buildings and land in connection with the asylums, costing in one case over £6,000. They had erected two greenhouses costing £2,800, and he had noticed a considerable item for canaries and cages, and actually £3 3s. for a bassoon. He did not wish it to be understood that he had no feeling for the unfortunate people, for he had the deepest sympathy

  1201
  with those with whom they had to deal, but he wished to point out that this heavy expenditure was still going on, and they had to provide for about 140 additional patients every year. A very great increase in the cost of the buildings was due to the varying instructions and directions which were given by the Lunacy Commissioners. Many years ago the asylums only cost them £175 per head. The ratepayers had no control over this expenditure, except through their members on the county council, and everybody else connected with the asylums seemed to be interested in spending as much money as possible. The Commissioners were extravagant in their directions, and of course the medical officer wanted to have the finest establishment in the country. The staff were all provided with the very best of everything, and everybody but the ratepayers was considered.
  He was anxious that there should be some inquiry in this matter. There were one or two points to which public attention ought to be directed. One of these was the different reasons assigned for the cause of lunacy. It was said that 18 per cent. of the cases were due to heredity and 23 per cent. to drink. The habitual drunkard's children in many instances found their way in the end into lunatic asylums. Another point to which he wished to direct attention was that a very large percentage of the patients sent to lunatic asylums were incurable. He thought a considerable difference might be made between the accommodation for curables and incurables. In one of the asylums 92 per cent. of the patients were said to be entirely incurable, and he thought it was unnecessary to supply splendid buildings, fittings, furniture, and appliances for the benefit of that class. They might be treated in another way, but not being a medical man, he could not advise what should be done. There ought to be a special division where weak-minded children might be treated. There was a large and increasing number of children being sent to lunatic asylums, some of them so young as five years of age. His suggestion was that the children should be dealt with by themselves, and that such work as they were able to perform should be got from them. It was a hazard-
  1202
  ous thing to say anything about the Commissioners. Hon. Members who were interested in the management of asylums would support him when he stated that it was a very difficult thing to please the Commissioners. In regard to the system of inspection, one objection which county councils had was that the same Commissioners did not always come round, the result being that changes were constantly ordered, one man reversing the instructions given by another. One man said that certain doors must always be left open, and another said that they must be made so that they would close. In connection with the asylum in his own district, when it was proposed to provide a fire escape for the patients one Commissioner said that the proper thing to have was a fire shoot through which the patients could be sent to the ground, and another Commissioner said they must have stairs. The Commissioners sometimes ordered a church to be provided, and he believed that they had no power to do so. They could order a chapel, and it was said that the appointment of a chaplain of the Church of England could be enforced. Free Church people had to find their own preachers on Sunday just as they best could. He desired that the Royal Commission which was to be appointed should inquire into the whole question, for nobody could doubt that the increase in lunacy was a very serious matter indeed. It might be owing to the conditions of our social life, but the public ought to know the reason. He hoped the inquiry which was to take place would satisfy the nation that the best was being done for the sufferers, and that the ratepayers' money was not being wasted.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid that a more important subject could scarcely engage the attention of the Committee. He could conceive scarcely any misfortune greater than lunacy. Death was scarcely more terrible. There was one misfortune greater than lunacy, and that was to be treated as a lunatic without being one. Men had been deprived of their liberty and kept as lunatics when, in fact, they were not, or, at any rate, were amenable to treatment without being confined.
  SIR JOHN TUKE: Will the hon. Member quote a case of that kind?
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid the hon. Member might remember that there was a novel which the writer stated was founded on facts. He could not cite a case within his own knowledge. At any rate the thing was possible. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London had suggested that the purview of the man of science should be, as it were, extended beyond the actual certified lunatic to those who were in an incipient stage. With the very best object the hon. Member suggested that if science were allowed to deal with them at an earlier stage of lunacy they might with greater facility achieve a cure. That was no doubt true, but he thought it necessarily must involve the deprivation of the liberty of those subjected to that treatment. If a man in an incipient, or supposed incipient, stage of lunacy were handed over to men of science he must lose that personal liberty which they all prized beyond anything else. The incipient stage of lunacy was difficult to recognise. It was said that every man was more or less mad—
  "Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
  And thin partitions do their bounds divide."
  It was conceivable that a committee of medical men under some such system as that suggested might certify that an individual was an incipient lunatic, and the consequences might be so serious that he boldly said it would be better to stand by the present system and run a certain amount of risk rather than to deprive a man of his liberty under such awful conditions. The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire described how a supposed lunatic was interviewed by two doctors who endeavoured to trick him into an admission of lunacy while he, on the other hand, endeavoured to deceive them.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: I may have expressed myself very badly, but it was not my intention to say that.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid he understood the hon. Member to say that there was a contest of wits between the supposed lunatic and the doctors. That was a very unfortunate thing to occur,
  1204
  and he believed it was a fact that some such contest did often happen. He had heard of an eminent man who kept an establishment in the West End of London where he did a vast amount of good in the treatment of lunatics. He asked a friend to dine with him and some of his lunatics, assuring him that if he did not touch on their particular delusions he would find them very interesting people. The guest at dinner sat next to a man who was most interesting. The patient asked him if he had come to place himself under the care of the doctor. "No," he replied, "I have only come to dine, and I am going away after dinner." "Ah," the patient said, "they always tell you that on the first day." The Commission should not be composed exclusively of men of science, and above all of doctors. He thought there should be a lawyer on it, and even a man of common sense, who was neither a doctor nor a lawyer.
  DR. HUTCHINSONsaid he did not agree with the hon. Member for King's Lynn that men or women were, in these days, shut up as lunatics who were not insane. It was at curious coincidence that for the past three days the House of Commons should have been discussing the drink question, and that now they were engaged on the question of lunacy. He thought the debate was very apropos. He only wished to say that on the proposed Lunacy Commission there should be an increase of the medical members and a decrease of the legal members. Another thing that ought to be recognised was that medical experts were demanding that there should be some way of securing early treatment of lunatics. They wanted to be able to separate different classes of lunatics, in the same way as they separated persons suffering from infectious diseases.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid he had been for a great number of years a member of the committee of one of the largest county lunatic asylums in the country; and he was sorry to say that that county (Wiltshire) held an unfortunately prominent position in the percentage of lunatics to total population. It was a

  1205
  well ascertained fact that in nearly every county where there was a high rate of lunacy there had been a very large emigration of the population. The strong and well-to-do left the county and left behind the poor and the weak. In the South and West of England they had suffered a great deal in that respect from the fact that manufactures and, consequently, employment had been transferred to other parts of the country. As bearing on the financial aspect of this question the poorer counties, like Wiltshire, had a very considerable claim on the attention of the Government in any inquiry which might be held as to the financial burdens which different counties had to bear for the maintenance of lunatics. Some counties were at present bearing a disproportionate part of the charge for what the law recognised was not a local but a national charge. What were the main reasons for putting aside local considerations as between county and county, and the main causes of the great increase in the charges to which his hon. friend had referred in his interesting speech? He was anxious to take a more comforting view of the situation than the alarmist view which had just been put before the Committee. He thought that, reading the Report of the Lunacy Commissioners, it would be rash to assume that the total increase in the number of lunatics in asylums necessarily pointed to a real increase in the number of lunatics in the country. And for this reason: When county asylums were first set up and the care of lunatics was taken out of private hands, there was a terrible fear among the poorer classes of seeing their relations put in these asylums. Recently there had been a great change in that feeling. Instead of the labourers fancying that their weak-minded relations who were taken off to the asylum would be badly treated, or even done to death, the feeling was now exactly the opposite. These asylums were now so admirably and expensively managed, that the standard of comfort in them was far above what these people were accustomed to in their own homes, and that entered into the calculations of these poor men and offered a temptation to them to send doubtful cases to the asylum rather than keep them at home. He did not suggest
  1206
  that the standard of living in the asylums should be lowered; on the contrary; but, nevertheless, it ought to be borne in mind that it did not follow that because there was an increase in the proportion of lunatics in asylums to population, say in the Highlands, that represented the same thing in the country at large. There had, been certain special reasons during the last few years why the proportion of lunatics to population had been sent up. It was universally recognised that six months after the close of the South African War there was a remarkable increase in lunacy. That was due to excitement as the war went on, which went to some people's heads, and to the fact that a great many persons had lost their relations by the chances of battle and disease, and were reduced to great poverty. There was no doubt that inrluenza—a disease to which they were all liable, especially in that House—had within the last few years sent a certain number of cases year by year to the asylums; but all of them were curable.
  These being the facts, what were the steps which they were justified in asking the Government to adopt? He understood that the Government, were practically pledged to grant some kind of inquiry or Commission, but he asked himself whether, in reality they had not had enough of inquiries and Royal Commissions? The main facts about the increase of lunacy were already known, and had been put in the most admirable language in the Reports of the Lunacy Commissioners. He remembered that some years ago the then Government promised that they would bring in a Bill in the next session on this subject, and that a précis of that Bill, extending to a column and a half, had appeared in the newspapers. He would like to ask what had become of that measure? Surely in these days the Government might spare a little time to look into the pigeon-holes of the Local Government Board and find that very useful and interesting suggested, legislation. He remembered that there was a correspondence between the Government and the County Councils Association which had put forward certain points dealing with this question. He did not altogether approve of the plan to take certain cases from private asylums and

  1207
  put them into the workhouses under Government supervision, so that the boards of guardians should be entitled to receive the 4s. grant, which had had such a fatal effect in many cases. Ever since Sir Stafford Northcote in 1875 brought in this extra grant of 4s. there had been a tendency, working in concert with other causes, to take doubtful cases into the workhouse asylums in order to get the 4s. grant. He could not see any necessity for further inquiry on this question, because all the facts had been known for years. He though the country owed a deep debt of gratitude to the Lunacy Commissioners. The hon. Member for Lynn Regis had unearthed ancient stories from old novels relating to a past state of things as to the capture and detention of sane men and women as lunatics; but the machinery of the Act of 1891 had provided very adequate protection for sane men and women, and he believed that such cases had been reduced to a minimum. There was now so much inspection by magistrates and other laymen, who were always ready to suspect the infallibility of the medical men, that if a person was locked up who ought not to be the chances were that he would be liberated inmediately. He could not understand the necessity for building expensive places of worship and providing all the requisites for the æsthetic accompaniments of an ornamental service which might appeal to all classes of the community who were in their sane mind. The Commissioners might be checked a little in this direction, while in all reasonable requirements they should be supported. He was sure that the Committee realised that the question of the increase of lunacy was one of the most painful and important that could be considered. He was rather inclined to doubt whether a further inquiry was necessary, though he would not resist it if it were proposed.
  SIR JOHN DORINGTONsaid that as one of the honorary Commissioners of Lunacy he wished to say a few words on the subject before the Committee. Reference had been made to the inadequacy of the Lunacy Commission in England as compared with Scotland. The Lunacy Commission in England was quite aware
  1208
  of that fact; and last year memorialised the Lord Chancellor on the subject and drew attention to the enormous growth of the work which was thrown upon them and which was really increasing beyond all reasonable dimensions. When the Commission was instituted there were 25,000 lunatics; now there were 140,000, and the number of asylums had increased from sixty-two in 1882 eighty-seven now, and eleven more were under construction, some of which were just about to be opened. Every one of those asylums required to be visited and they increased the work of the Commissioners. He did not concur with what had been said with regard to the uselessness of the legal Commissioners. He thought that it was a very happy arrangement under which the medical members had the assistance of their legal confrères. As an honorary Commissioner he was able to state that legal questions often arose in which the assistance of the legal Commissioners was of the greatest value. He thought there should be an increase in the personnel of the Commission, and also that it should not be necessary that two Commissioners should visit every asylum. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh University instanced a case in which a house had been kept for years for the reception of lunatics without supervision, but that was simply due to the fact that the police, or the inhabitants of the district, had not given information which would be at once attended to by the Commissioners. Whenever information was given the Commissioners applied to the Lord Chancellor for a visitation order, which was at once acted upon. With regard to the office work, the number of reception orders in 1882 was 15,960, and in 1902, 23,000. All these were, more or less, examined by the Commissioners, and from his own knowledge he would sate that there was not a single lunatic n England the particulars of whose case was not known. The Commission worked extremely well, but it was overworked. It wanted an alleviation of its work, or in increase in the number of Commissioners. He thought that the legislation 1892 in regard of the placing of Liunatics under control went as far as public opinion would allow. He knew he sad conditions which prevailed

  1209
  in a family when it was thought that a member of it was supposed to be verging on lunacy, and there was natural hesitation before taking any steps to have the patient certified. He very much doubted whether any change in the law would affect an improvement in such a case. He was strongly of opinion that they could not go very much further. He admitted what had been said regarding the importance of early treatment in lunacy cases, but the question was, how early should the public authorities intervene. He cordially supported his hon. friend in his demands for an inquiry regarding the adequacy, not the competency, of the Lunacy Commissioners for England. It was short-handed, and an enormous amount of work had to be accomplished, and he hoped the Home Secretary would increase its personnel.
  THE ATTORNEY - GEXERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,)said he was glad to know that the administration of lunacy was so satisfactory in Scotland, but, while allowing that anything said by the hon. Member for Edinburgh University on this subject carried great authority and deserved careful consideration, he could not agree with everything in his hon. friend's speech. He was not satisfied that there was proof of the actual increase in the amount of lunacy. Cases were now looked after as they were not under the barbarous state of the law in old days, and there was less reluctance to allow patients to enter well-managed modern asylums. If there was a real increase in the proportion of lunatics in the country apart from an apparent increase, it was not due to any defect in the law or its administration; it was due to the conditions of modern life. Under the much greater care taken of the young, many physically and mentally feeble persons survived who in old times would have disappeared in the early struggles for existence, and in such cases strain and stress such as had been alluded to might send the mind over the precipice. It was pleasing to observe that there was absolute confidence in the administration of the lunacy laws in Scotland, and that there were no scares and no scandals in that country.
  1210
  That might be due to the fact that Scotland was a smaller country than England and was easier to manage. But he thought his hon. friend drew too dark a picture when he suggested that in England there was an atmosphere of distrust in regard to the administration of the lunacy laws. He did not think his hon. friend had produced any evidence in support of tint statement. He thought there was a very general and well-founded confidence in the way in winch the lunacy laws were administered. The hon. Member for the Keighley Division had suggested that the cost of buildings for the care of lunatics was far too great. That might be so, but it was a matter largely under the control of the local authorities. Undoubtedly the local authorities had a potent voice in these matters, and if there was a resolute movement in the direction of economy, he was sure that, so far as it was consistent with efficiency, that movement would not be disregarded by the Commissioners.
  MR. BRIGGsaid the local authorities did not like to express opinions contrary to those of the Commissioners.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the local authorities must acquire more moral courage in these matters. As to the number of the Commissioners, of course the Committee listened with interest to what was said by his hon. friend behind him with regard to the feeling of the Commissioners that some increase in their number was desirable But he would suggest that before they embarked on an increase of the staff they should see whether the work of the existing staff could not be rearranged with advantage. He believed that a great deal could be done by relaxing the provision of the law as to the association of two Commissioners—a legal Commissioner and a medical Commissioner—on four of the six visits that were paid to each house in every year. Subject to proper provisions, such a relaxation might be made, and a Bill which had more than once passed through the House of Lords, but, owing to the opposition in the House of Commons, could not be passed into law, contained provisions for that purpose. Strong

  1211
  objection had been taken to legal Commissioners visiting the houses and lunatics in company with the medical Commissioners. But the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tewkesbury, speaking from practical experience as a Commissioner, had expressed his opinion that a great deal of good had been done by the association of a legal Commissioner with a medical Commissioner, and they had reason to know that a similar view had been expressed by the medical Commissioner.
  As to the question of incipient or threatened lunacy, he was not disposed to deny that in England we had very great jealousy for personal liberty. But he was not at all sure that that jealousy, in its origin noble and honourable, had not been pushed to an extent which might have interfered with the care which, if bestowed in time, might have prevented the patient from being stamped as a lunatic. It was said that that matter was better managed in Scotland. He would remind the House that the Bill which had passed more than once through the House of Lords and had been prevented from passing through the House of Commons contained clauses dealing with this very matter, relaxing the provisions of the law in a way which he believed would be found to give facilities for preventing the development of this terrible malady, and vet providing adequate securities against the machinery being abused for any purpose of oppression. That proposal bad been made by the Government, and certainly it was very much to be desired that something of the kind should be carried out. It was not the view of the Government that a case had been made out for the appointment of a Royal Commission or a Committee to Inquire into this subject. The question was pretty thoroughly understood. Attention had been called by high authorities to the points on which they considered there might be either legislation or improved administration. He was perfectly certain that everything that had been said in that debate would be properly considered, and no good could be done by setting up another inquiry into the whole subject of lunacy.
  SIR EDWARD STRAGHEYsaid after the very unsatisfactory reply of the hon. and learned Attorney-General it was necessary on his part to move the reduction of this Vote by a sum of £100, in order that the dissatisfaction of the Committee might be expressed and emphasised. Those who practically had the administration of lunacy did not find it was anything like so satisfactory as the hon. and learned Gentleman appeared to think. He reminded the Attorney-General that in cases of building the plans had to go before the Lunacy Commissioners, who, if not satisfied, could make any alterations they chose. An unsatisfactory feature connected with the proceedings was that the architects to the Lunacy Commissioners were allowed to take private work. He knew a case in which the committee of the county lunatic asylum were advised to choose a particular architect on the ground that he was employed by the Lunacy Commissioners, and that they would consequently have no difficulty in getting their plans through. That was a state of things which ought not to be. As architects were paid a percentage on the cost of the building, it was only natural that they should desire to see expensive buildings erected, and it was wholly against the public interest that the check upon them through the Lunacy Commissioners should be rendered ineffective in the manner he had described. He begged to move the reduction of the Vote by £100.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £10,159, be granted for the said Service."—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
  DR. FARQUHARSONhoped, in view of the unsatisfactory and perfunctory reply of the Attorney-General, that his hon. friend would press his Motion to a division. It would, however, have some effect on his own vote if the hon. and learned Gentleman gave an assurance that the Bill which passed the House of Lords four years ago should be re-introduced early next session and Government-facilities granted to secure its passage through the House.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYassured the hon. Member that he was alive to the importance of the Bill referred to, but it

  1213
  was impossible for him to give any pledge of the nature asked for. The matter would not be lost sight of. He could say no more than that.

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Partington, Oswald

  Allen, Charles P.

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Price, Robert John

  Austin, Sir John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Roche, John

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'ns'

  Rose, Charles Day

  Boland, John

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Runciman, Walter

  Brigg, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Russell, T. W.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Joyce, Michael

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Kilbride, Denis

  Shackleton, David James

  Burt, Thomas

  Labouchere, Henry

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Caldwell, James

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Layland- Barratt, Francis

  Sheehy, David

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Leamy, Edmund

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Canston, Richard Knight

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Slack, John Bamford

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Leng, Sir John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Crombie, John William

  Levy, Maurice

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Cullinan, J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sullivan, Donal

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lloyd-George, David

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Davies, M. Vanghan (Cardigan

  Lundon, W.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Delany, William

  M'Crae, George

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, F.

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Malcolm, Jan

  Tomkinson, James

  Doogan, P. C.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Edwards, Frank

  Mooney, John J.

  Walton Joseph (Barnsley)

  Elibank, Master of

  Morgan. J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Weir, James Galloway

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Murphy, John

  White, Luke (York. E. R.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whiteley, George (York. W. R.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wood, James

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf' d

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  Young, Samuel

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. (Sir Arthur D.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Edward Strachey and Sir John Tuke.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Donnell, I. (Kerry, W.)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Hobhouse, C. E. R. (Bristol, E.

  Palmer, Sir Chas. M (Durham

  Hope, John Denas (Fife, West)

  Parrott, William

  NOES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chapman, Edward

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks

  Charrington, Spencer

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bignold, Arthur

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn. Hugh O.

  Bill, Charles

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bond, Edward

  Coddington, Sir William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon, John

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H

  Bowles, Lt.-Col H. F (Middlesex

  Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Brassey, Albert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Balcarrer, Lord

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Corbett, T. L (Down, North)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J (Manch'r

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim S.,

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Banbury, Sn Frederick George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Aves, 126; Noes, 216. (Division List No. 122.)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

  Renwick, George

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N. R

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lee. A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Dimsdale, Rt Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Round. Rt. Hon. James

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Doughty, George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwm

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Dyke, Rt. Hn Sir William Hart

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lucas, Reginald. J (Portsmouth

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Fitzgerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh W.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stroyan, John

  Forster, Henry William

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W.

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Gardner, Ernest

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Garfit, William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Mitchell, Edw (Fermanagh, N.

  Tuff, Charles

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Valentia, viscount

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim.

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Walker, Col. Wilham Hall

  Groves, James Grimble

  Moore, William

  Wahond, Rt Hn. Sir William. H

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E. (Taunton

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Myers, William Henry

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Percy, Earl

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wyndham-Qum, Col. W. H.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Pym, C. Guy

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Randles, John S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Kerr, John

  Rasch, Sir Frederick Carne

  Kimber, Henry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £6,400,618, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office Service, the
1216
Expenses of Post Office Savings Banks, and Government Annuities and Insurance, and the Collection of the Post Office Revenue."
THE POSTMASTER - GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): I think it would be convenient to the house that I should make a statement, first, as to what has been done in the past, and what is proposed to be done in

1217
the future, in regard to the administration of the Post Office. The first point that occurs to me is as to the various proposals put forward by my predecessor, and how far they have been put into execution. The first one which hon. Members will desire to hear about is on the subject of the Committee which my right hon. friend the present Chancellor of the Exchequer appointed last year to inquire into the wages of certain Post Office officials. My right hon. friend appointed a Committee composed of various business men, under the presidency of Sir Edward Bradford. I found this Committee appointed when I came into office, but they had not at that moment actually begun their sittings. I asked them to continue the work which my right hon. friend placed in their hands, and I gave instructions, which I think have been fully and loyally carried out, that those men who wished to give evidence should be given every possible facility to do so, and that no hindrance whatever should be put in the way of those who wished to lay their case before what I hold to be a good and independent tribunal. The Committee has only reported to me within the last few days; I think it was on Tuesday last that I received their Report. At any rate, I did not see their Report until that day myself. As a general rule, I do not think it is held that Departmental Committee Reports are necessarily published to the House or the public, but I feel that the Report of a Committee like the one I have mentioned, takes the form of rather more than a Departmental Committee Report, and it is obviously necessary that the whole of it should be in the hands of hon. Members. In addition to that, I think the House should have ample time for the consideration and discussion of that Report. I have not received the whole of the evidence and the appendices, and therefore I am not in a position to lay the Report on the fable of the House. I think, therefore, the best way for the convenience of the House would be that I should postpone Vote III., which is the Telegraphs and Telephones, on the present occasion, and defer it until a later day in the session when hon. Members will have this Report in their hands, and although I may not at the time be able to give a decision as to the policy of the Government on that
1218
Report, hon. Members will then, I think, be perfectly free to discuss it and draw their own conclusions from the Report. Upon this point I wish to ask you, Mr. Deputy Chairman, whether I should be in order in putting the question in this way before the House, and would the House be in order in discussing not only the Report, but also the case of the civil servants and Post Office servants, who had not been included, but who hon. Members think ought to have been included in the inquiry. Really I think there ought to be a sort of half discussion on one Vote and half discussion on the other Vote. I have consulted Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and he has informed me that he will, under the circumstances, allow a full discussion of those officials included in the Report and of those not included in the Report, on Vote 3, which is the Vote for the Telegraphs and the Telephones.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think it would be more convenient to take the discussion as suggested by the noble Lord on the Vote for Telegraphs and Telephones. You cannot discuss the Report on both these Votes, and I think the Committee will prefer to take the discussion on the Telephones and Telegraphs Vote.
MR. BAYLEYasked if sufficient time would be allowed for hon. Members to fully consider the Report?
LORD STANLEYsaid the best promise he could give was that his Estimates would not come on until the Report of the Departmental Committee had been in the hands of hon. Members sufficient time to allow themselves to become thoroughly conversant with its contents. He hoped they would not discuss this question at the present moment, but leave it over until a future date.
SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid he thought the proposal of the noble Lord was not unreasonable, but it should not be forgotten that this Committee was appointed a year ago, and therefore he hoped there would be as little further delay as possible. He was glad that the noble Lord had undertaken to publish the Report, and he hoped that at an early

1219
period they would have an opportunity of discussing it. He wished to know if such questions as not only wages and duties, but stagnation of promotion, sanitation of the offices, the £190 maximum, and matters of that kind, would be included in the Report. He thought the noble Lord should have time to consider the Report, and he relied upon his doing so kindly and sympathetically. He agreed that it would be best to deal with the whole matter upon the adjourned Vote, when the long-standing grievances of both postal and telegraph employees could be fully discussed.
MR. NANNETTIsaid that many hon. Members had come down with the idea that this Vote was going to be taken, but if it was adjourned until the Report was placed on the Table, he wished to know whether they would be precluded from dealing with those officials who were not included in the Report. There were only four classes included connected with the postal service, and he wished to know whether they would be ruled out of order when the Report came up, and not be allowed to discuss the question as to the advisability or right, of those outside the four classes to be considered.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I understand that the wages are paid partly under the Post Office Vote and partly under the Telegraphs and Telephones Note; therefore it would be in order to discuss the question of wages under either Vote. I think, however, that it is the opinion of the Committee that the discussion on these points should be restricted to the Telegraphs and Telephones Vote when the Report has been laid on the Table.
LORD STANLEYsaid he was perfectly certain it would be for the convenience of the Committee that they should not discuss a Report which was not before it. He was perfectly certain, also, that when the Report was before the Committee, it would be better not to discuss it piecemeal. He had the permission of Mr. Deputy-Speaker, confirmed by Mr. Deputy-Chairman, for stating that on the later Vote they would be able to discuss these matters
1220
when the Report of the Committee was in their hands, so that if they made a sacrifice now by abstaining from discussion on this particular Vote, they would be able to speak on another occasion. He hoped, therefore, that hon. Members would accept the assurance that, at any rate so far as he was concerned, there would be full opportunity for discussing the Report as soon as possible.
MR. BAYLEYsaid that on behalf of the Post Office employees whom he represented, he was satisfied with the assurance given by the Postmaster-General.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he should like to ask the Postmaster-General one question. The House understood last year that the Committee was to deal only with the question of wages. There were a number of other very important topics which required to be considered, and he wanted to know from the Postmaster-General whether these topics were dealt with in the Report. For instance, he wanted to know whether it dealt with the important question of the prospects of promotion, and also with the hours and conditions of employment. If they were to understand that the Report dealt with matters of that kind, he thought it would be more satisfactory to discuss it on a future occasion, when it was before them.
LORD STANLEYsaid he had already stated that none of the rights of hon. Members would be sacrificed by postponing the discussion. The hon. Member would be allowed to discuss not only the matters dealt with in the Report, but also those which he thought ought to be included. He thought it would be found that everything had been taken into consideration, for rates of wages were not the only things that affected a man's livelihood. There was the question of the cost of living, as also various other things which had been taken into consideration. Some views had been put before him by hon. Members privately, and he thought he could safely say that all had been put before the Committee and dealt with by them. His lion, friend the Member for South Islington had

1221

asked him whether the Report said anything about sanitation, and whether anything had been done in regard to that matter. He confessed that he had from lack of time not been able to go carefully into the subject up to the present, nor had he been able to read the whole of the evidence given with respect to it. He know that the Committee had considered the question of the health of the Post Office servants, but he did not know what the Report said. He hoped to be able to do something to improve those offices which, he regretted to say, had been found to be, as regarded sanitation, not in a suitable condition.
He had little or nothing really to state to the House as to alterations in the postal service of the country during the past year. There had been various small reforms, and even small reforms cost a great deal of money. An attempt had been made to extend the usefulness of the halfpenny post by allowing a little more of those printed statements which were in common commercial usage. It might interest the House to know that they were endeavouring to extend the motor services of the Post Office. Personally he was an enthusiast on motoring, and he should like to see these services extended very but he was bound to say that present moment motors were not sufficiently reliable to depend upon in any great degree. He did not want to advertise the firms that had done badly, but, perhaps he was doing no firm injury if he said that the car running between London and Epping, which was supplied by the Milnes-Daimler Company, was providing a most excellent service. There was no doubt that both as to speed and economy it was standing them in good stead, and he hoped that the services might be extended in other directions, and that in time they might find motorcars a means of quickening the delivery of letters and parcels in the rural districts.
In the issue of postal orders several changes had been made. He had proposed to all the Colonies that there should be an interchange of postal orders between them and this country; so that orders issued in this country should be payable in the Colonies and vice versa. A large number of the Colonies had already agreed to the
1222
arrangement, and in a few months he hoped that all of them would follow. The new denominations of postal orders introduced last year had apparently met a real public want. Of the guinea orders 500,000 were paid in the year ended 31st March last, and of the orders for 5s. 6d. and 6s. 6d. nearly 750,000 were paid. He had not found that up to the present the postal order for 6d. had been much asked for; but he was in hopes that it would come to be used for the payment of those advertisements which at present were paid for in stomps. In the year ended March last, postal orders were paid to the amount of £34,250,000, as compared with £33,000,000 in the preceding year. But the number paid was 90,720,000, as compared with 93,140,000 in the preceding year; so that the public, it appeared, were in very many cases now able to remit by means of one order where previously two had been necessary. Another reform to meet the public convenience was the issue of twenty-four stamps in a little book. The charge of one halfpenny over the value of the stamps had been objected to as making an inconvenient sum. The Post Office might obviate the difficulty by substituting twelve halfpenny stamps for six of the penny stamps in the book, so that the purchaser would only have to tear out one of the halfpenny stamps instead of having to produce a halfpenny to make up the price of the book. The Post Office was also considering the advisability of issuing books of stamps of higher denominations. As to money orders, inconvenience had been felt from the comparatively low limit—£10—fixed for inland money orders. From the beginning of the present year the limit had been extended to £40, and a similar increase had been arranged for with a large, number of foreign countries.
One increase appeared in the Estimates which he hoped would meet with the universal approbation of the House. It had been found that there were many cases of unestablished men and sub-postmasters who did not come under the benefits of the Superannuation Act; and who, at the end of long and faithful service, had nothing to look for. With the consent of the Treasury a sum of £5,000 had been put in the Estimates to

1223
enable some sort of gratuity to be given in hard cases of this kind. For many reasons he was glad that the telephone discussion had been postponed. Later in the session he hoped to be able to give more definite information to the House as to the progress of the negotiations with the telephone company, and as to the future organisation and administration of wireless telegraphy. He hoped that he should be able to assure the House that the Post Office were arriving at a conclusion which would prevent the growing up in this country of a monopoly such as there had been experience of in the past. At the same time, he should be able to show that ho was not dealing unfairly with those who had made wireless telegraphy a possibility. He had no great departmental reforms in prospect, but if there were money to spare, he should like to extend increased postal facilities to these districts that were now poorly served.
There was one important reform which he was prepared to make, and it was one which he knew would interest his lion, friend the Member for Canterbury. The hon. Member had always been very anxious that the penny postage to the Colonies should be extended to Australia. He was glad to say that with the consent of the Treasury—having had some indication that Australia was willing to come into the arrangement—he had asked the Colonial Office to inform the authorities there that if they would give an assurance that at a definite date in the near future they would agree to institute a penny postage rate between Australia and England, he was ready to introduce it at once between England and Australia. He was, therefore, in hopes that the Australian postal authorities would soon see their way to agree to this proposition. He was afraid that the statement he had put before the Committee was somewhat dull, but he hoped the House would accept it as a full and simple statement of what he had been able to do and not to do. At the same time, he would be ready to answer any Questions put to him on points of detail, and he hoped that, in the end, the Committee would justify all the steps he had taken on the matters brought before him.
MR. HEMPHILLsaid he wished to know whether the noble Lord had come to any decision in regard to what was called cash on delivery? The reason of that query was that he had had several letters from his constituents stating that the present system of cash on delivery interfered with the business of small traders.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he was sure that the Committee must be very grateful to the Postmaster-General for his interesting statement: but there was one matter which he would like to bring under his notice. English newspapers had now, owing to the hostilities between Russia and Japan, to travel by sea, instead of overland. But Germany had made arrangements with the Siberian Railway to get their newspapers delivered in China a fortnight before the, English papers. He begged the noble Lord to see whether he could not arrive at some arrangement with the Siberian Railway by which they could carry English newspapers. He congratulated the noble Lord on the arrangements he had made for the use of motor-cars in postal delivery. He remembered the time when such a suggestion was received with ridicule; and he was sure that in many districts the delivery of letters and newspapers would be greatly facilitated by the use of motorcars. He understood that the Telegraph Vote was to be discussed on a future occasion, but he should like to point out now that a telegram of two words from France to Great Britain cost, at the minimum rate, 4d., whereas a telegram from Great Britain to France cost, at the minimum rate, 10d. That ought to be remedied. Then the time had, he considered, arrived when the postage from here to France should be reduced to 1d. or 1½d. He was sure that if the noble Lord approached the French Postmaster-General on this question he would be met half-way.
MR. McCRAEsaid he hoped the promised discussion on the Report would not be delayed to a late period of the session. As to telephones, did he understand the noble Lord to say that an opportunity would be afforded for discussing the policy of

1225
the Government on that subject on the same Vote as on the telegraphs?
LORD STANLEYsaid that they would come on separately.
MR. McCRAEsaid that they ought to know at the earliest possible date what the Government proposed to do in regard to the acquisition of the whole telephone system of the country.
MR. HENNIKER HEATONsaid he congratulated the Postmaster-General on the reforms he had introduced during the last year; but he wished to point out that the assurances which the noble Lord had given the Committee in regard to the postage to Australia were very unsatisfactory. Two years ago the late Postmaster-General promised exactly the same thing. They were told that Canada had suffered very considerably from the large numbers of letters which had been sent from there to Australia and which had been overcharged in postage. Immediately on receiving that information he communicated with Lord Strathcona, who telegraphed to the Postmaster General of the Dominion as to how the system had worked between Canada and Australia; and Lord Strathcona received from the Postmaster-General of Canada the following cable—
"Representations to Lord Stanley about penny postage between Canada and Australia not working unsatisfactorily absolutely unfounded. First two or three months noticed increase in short-paid letters, then this entirely ceased and is now working without a flaw."
He had a letter from Mr. Barton, the late Premier of the Australian Commonwealth, practically saying the same thing, and he thought that the penny postage to Australia should be established at once. He wished to ask his right hon. friend the Postmaster-General as to what he was doing to establish a universal penny post. He would urge that efforts should be made to establish cheap postage between Great Britain and other European countries. At present it cost 2½d. to send a letter from Dover to Calais, whilst the rate to India and China was only 1d. The postage between England and France should be the inland rate of the country of origin, as was the ease between the United States and Canada. He did not
1226
think they were making full use of their opportunities for developing friendly relations with France by continuing to charge several times as much for postage to France as for postage to Jersey. As regarded money orders, he complained that the rate from England to France was much higher than the rate from France to England. The amount for which in England 6d. would have to be paid would be covered in France by a charge of 1d. That was a ridiculous state of affairs. In Germany the Post Office delivered money of which it was the medium of transmission at the payee's address without making any addition to the original charge. He thought some similar arrangement might be made with advantage in this country, and it was a reform which would commend itself to the whole country. He wished to draw attention also to the vexatious manner in which the present restrictions on the conveyance of samples operated, and he would urge that greater facilities should be allowed.
Whilst the Post Office was, on the whole, the best and greatest in the world, it was, he was afraid, guilty of meanness in some details. At present it was the custom to exact fines from holders of postal orders not presented within the proper period. A case had come to his notice in which a man had had to pay 7s. 2d. in order to obtain the value of a 7s. order. That was ridiculous. No Jew ever behaved so badly as that. The Post Office had the use of the money for a considerable time, and made a charge for it. Fines on postal orders amounted to an enormous sum. He trusted the matter would receive attention. In the case of prepaid reply telegraph forms not used within two months the Post Office refused to refund the money. That, too, was, he thought, hardly worthy of the Post Office. The fee for the registration of letters might be reduced with advantage from 2d. to 1d. In the case of letters insufficiently stamped, double the deficiency was charged. That was grossly unfair. Again, the Post Office not only destroyed an embossed stamp which was pasted on a letter, but surcharged as if the letter had not been stamped at all. The heavy fines for insufficient postage should be abolished.

1227
Complaint was made by many hon. Members of the great delay in the morning delivery of letters. His view was that this delay would be greatly mitigated if there were three classes of postmen—the first class to deliver letters, the second newspapers, and the third parcels. Another reform he would commend to his noble friend was the placing of letter-boxes in all through trains. In every part of the Continent letter-boxes were to be found on the trains, while in this country letters could be posted on only very few trains. Another small matter that could easily be remedied was this—that the British stamp was the only stamp in the world which did not bear upon its face the country of origin. It was also desirable that there should be an international stamp, or, at any rate, that one should be able to purchase the stamps of other countries at the General Post Office. In Ceylon, in India, and in parts of Australia notices would be found bearing the words "British stamps sold here;" but there was no place in connection with the British Post Office where foreign stamps could be purchased. Another reform which had been advocated in the House was the right of senders to recall letters posted by mistake. In other countries, if anyone posted a letter by mistake he went to the postmaster, wrote out the exact address on the letter, and stated its contents, and the postmaster at once stopped the letter, and if satisfied as to the writer would hand it back. From the British Post Office letters once posted could never be recovered. Then there was the question of lotteries. The British Post Office authorities contended that they had no authority to open letters. Vast masses of letters were posted in this country for German lotteries, which it would be perfectly easy for the authorities to identify. In Canada and the United States the law secured absolute immunity to postmasters and they seized thousands of letters.
Then there was the question of getting compensation For Post Office blunders. Post Office officials on the whole were very honourable and respectable men, but in spite of that there were a number of convictions for stealing letters, and if a Post Office official was found with stolen orders they were not given up. The Postmaster-General was surrounded by
1228
rules and regulations which absolved him from all responsibility. He thought a little pressure might be used to secure the reform of the law in this direction. In telegrams the most astounding and wicked blunders were made, for which there was no redress. Another matter was the desirability of securing a penny postage to Egypt. Letters could be sent for a penny to Singapore and many of the China stations, but immediately a traveller reached Egypt his letters cost 2½d. He could not understand why his noble friend did not immediately remedy this grievance. Then there was the enormously high charge for the postage of magazines. Very often more was charged than the cost of the magazine, while newspapers 21b. in weight were carried for ½d. In New Zealand magazines to the weight of 8oz. went through the post for a penny, and it would be a great boon to the people of this country if they could get their magazines through the post at a more reasonable rate.
SIR JOHN LENGthought the announcement by the Postmaster-General concerning the offer he had made to Australia ought, on the whole, to be received with gratitude, and he hoped that in a corresponding spirit the noble Lord would make overtures to the Government of Canada to facilitate the introduction of British newspapers and literature into the Dominion on terms enabling them to compete with the newspapers of the United States. He feared the hon. Member who had just spoken would have to remain in the House for at least fifty years to see many of the suggestions he had made carried into effect. There was one short way of securing his ends, and that was that when the present Postmaster-General in due course was elevated to a more responsible position the hon. Member for Canterbury should be his successor. With regard to the halfpenny postage, some consideration ought to be given by the Post Office to the fact that, while heavy sixpenny newspapers weighing several pounds went for a halfpenny, the same rate was charged for the much smaller papers chiefly read by the working classes. This rule really acted as a discrimination in favour of the wealthy,

1229
who were accustomed to purchase these heavy illustrated publications. Many of the reforms initiated by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer were recognised as being of great advantage; and, although the noble Lord had modestly disclaimed having brought forward any great reform himself, it was recognised in the Department that his bright and breezy personality had introduced a greater stimulus to activity and reform than had hitherto been apparent.
He had had a communication placed in his hands from a comparatively poor man of excellent character in the Highlands of Scotland, whose daughter in 1901 passed with credit her examination for entrance into the service as a Post Office clerk. Since that date she had been discharging her duties in a fashionable South Coast town, but was still in the "learners' class." with a salary of 5s a week. This young woman's father an mother, after the honourable manner of Scotch parents, had denied themselves in order to give their daughter a good education, and since the examination in 1901 they had continued the course of self-denial for the purpose of supplementing her salary of 5s. a week. It was not right that well-educated young women should remain for a couple of years on such a salary. The amount was not sufficient to make both ends meet, and it exposed the girls to great temptations. He hoped the noble Lord would look into this question, as the instance he had given was by no means an isolated case. He further desired to bring under the notice of the Postmaster-General a matter affecting the post office in his own constituency. Last autumn, acting strictly according to the regulations of the Department, the deliverers in the post office at Dundee made a respectful representation, which passed through the hands of the postmaster, and was known to have been forwarded to Edinburgh. In that presentation they stated that their department was understaffed and overworked, and that the records of the office would show that a number of young men had broken down in health owing to the conditions under which they worked the early deliverers not being allowed sufficient time for meals before they
1230
were sent out again. What he wished to remark upon was the dilatory movement of the Department in dealing with complaints of that sort. Some weeks ago, in reply to a Question, the Postmaster-General stated that the representation had been received, and yet, although it was dated September last, he had just had a telegram saying that nothing had been done to remedy the matters complained of. The noble Lord, who was a capable man, ought to stir up the officials of the Department, and see that when proper representations were made they were not put into a pigeon-hole or filed without having been investigated, and that if on investigation the complaints were proved to be well-founded they were promptly dealt with. It would be far better to say "no" to an application and say it promptly, than to hang up the matter indefinitely and keep the men in a state of suspense. He hoped the noble Lord, who, he believed, was the right man in the right place, would act vigorously in his Department, and see that these matters were promptly dealt will.
MR. H. C. RICHARDSexpressed a fear lest the noble Lord, although the right man in the right place, should be "squelched" by the permanent officials in the Department. He desired to draw attention to a grievance suffered by business people, viz., the tampering with their correspondence in the halfpenny post. This practice was indulged in by over zealous officials simply that it might be known that, they had obtained certain excess payments for the Post Office. Recently in a country post office he was told that they had opened the halfpenny letters, and as a result had exacted by excessive distraint the sum of 4s. 2d. from the unfortunate people who received their invoices from London through the halfpenny post. The letters of a firm in his own constituency were sometimes delayed until as late as twelve o'clock, when the weekly or monthly raid was on, in order that their halfpenny letters might be gone through individually. The Postmaster-General had said that certain changes had been made; but the complaint was that when the noble Lord started on the path of common sense he stopped half way on the journey. If

1231
common sense prevailed at the Post Office they would not hear of the words "per Pickford" on invoices going for a half penny while the words "forward per Pick-ford" entailed a penny tine. This system of espionage was absolutely indefensible, and he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to break down these absurd distinctions which harassed commerce, delayed letters, and made officials of the Post Office Shylocks and taxgatherers of the worst description instead of servants of the public. The practice of inflicting a penny fine for adding the word "forward" to "per Pickford" and similar distinctions was unworthy of a great commercial nation, and the noble Lord would go down to posterity as one who had done as much for business people as Mr. Fawcett himself if he would only put a stop to this system and insisted on common sense being used. With regard to colonial and foreign postage, he believed that the Postmaster-General at Washington was personally only too willing to establish a penny rate between England and America. What the Canadians complained of, and what was very inimical to Imperial interests and instincts, was that newspapers from the United States could pass into Canada at a much lower rate than newspapers from this country. The consequence was that the Canadian world was saturated with the American view of matters rather than with the view of the mother country, and the territories in the great North-West were allowed to get their magazines and newspapers from across the border instead of from England, because the Canadian Post Office could not get from this country the same advantages as were offered by the United States. Penny postage with France was not half so important as an arrangement with Australia, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would make every effort to conclude the great system which the Duke of Norfolk gave to the country as a Jubilee present.
He further urged that the regulation with regard to communications on the face of post-cards for transmission inland should be extended to the whole of the Empire. As to letter-boxes on through trains they were really a necessity. It was utterly absurd that a passenger should be unable to post a letter upon the train which
1232
he knew was bringing up the London mail. If they could post in the letter-box at the railway stations up to the time of the departure of the train it would not be so bad, but these letter-boxes were cleared and the letters taken away to the post office and then brought, back. There was no reason why they could not be sorted in the train, nor was there any reason why letter-boxes should not be put into the through mail trains, so the passengers on the train might write and post their correspondence while travelling. He asked the noble Lord also to consider the feasibility of a penny post to Egypt. It was absurd that this one place should be the only place to which we could not send a letter for a penny. It was not the Egyptian Post Office which made any difficulty, but those Post Office officials in this country, who never rejoiced so much as when, instead of considering the public and removing these petty obnoxious and trying measures generally, kept, the public at arms length. One point to which he wished to draw attention was the number of hours at which post office officials in rural and local offices were kept at work during the Christmas time. He could give the Postmaster-General the name of a postmaster who in that time of pressure refused to get outside assistance and worked the young men, under twenty-one years of age, twenty-two hours out of the twenty-four for a week before the Christmas morning, with the result that on Christmas morning these poor young men fell asleep on the sacks and were physically incapable of sorting the letters. And this course was pursued solely in order that the postmaster might show that he was able to cope with this enormous delivery without employing extra assistance. In his opinion, in times of pressure, such as Christmas time, twelve hours a day should be the, limit of time to which these men should work.
In regard to the Post Office contracts, which would come in on another Vote, he hoped the Postmaster-General, before the contract with the P. and O. Company expired, would give an opportunity to those who desired to make some strong remarks on the subject to express their views on the way in which the P. and O. service between this country and India

1233
was carried on; also with regard to the way passengers on those boats were treated, and generally with regard to the conduct of the company. He appealed to the Postmaster-General to encourage and not discourage the carriage of letters for a halfpenny. He drew attention to the fact that letters weighing two ounces could be, and were, carried by Parliamentary sanction for a halfpenny, and said it was unfair that the public should be mulcted and fined simply because some absurd and antiquated regulations were not carried out. In India a post card could be sent throughout the length and breadth of the land for a farthing, and a letter weighing half an ounce for a halfpenny. In conclusion, he urged the Postmaster-General to remember that the Postal Service existed for the benefit of the country, and not the country for the benefit of the Postal Service.
MR. NANNETTIsaid before making his own complaint he desired strongly to support that made by the hon. Gentleman opposite as to the delay in the delivery of letters in this country. There was no reason why letters posted in time to catch the night mail from Dublin should not be delivered in London by the morning delivery instead of as at present at mid-day. He had had many complaints as to this.
LORD STANLEY: If the hon. Gentleman would get for me the envelopes of letters so delivered it would greatly help me in making an inquiry.
MR. NANNETTIwas understood to assent. Continuing, the hon. Member said he had ventured last year when the Departmental Committee to inquire into the wages of the Post Office officials was appointed to intimate that it would not meet with the approval of and give satisfaction to the men employed in the Postal Service. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire, the predecessor of the noble Lord, however, was callous to all appeals made by hon. Members on behalf of the postal servants, and appointed that Committee to deal with a particular subject. The feeling in the Postal Service at the present moment was more than ever a feeling
1234
of deep discontent and dissatisfaction at the manner in which they were being treated. He had in his hand an extract from a letter of one of the most popular postal organisations in London, which dealt with the grievance that existed in this country. While giving evidence before the Committee it was made obvious by the postal servants that they could not look on this Committee as impartial because there was no representative of the working classes, who would be likely to sympathise with or have any knowledge of the views and grievances of the postal servants, upon it. He desired to-day to make an appeal to the noble Lord, and to say that no rest or security would be given to the postal authorities until a Committee of this House was appointed to deal with the whole of the grievances under which the postal servants were now suffering. The extract said—
"We wish to make it perfectly clear that we do not regard the Committee as in any way an impartial or satisfactory body. We have been informed by Mr. Hanbury that Parliament was our Court of Appeal and we think as State servants our grievances should be decided by a tribunal formed of the peoples' representatives."
He agreed with the organisation that sent out that notice, and the noble Lord need not flatter himself that the findings of the Committee would do away with the grievances that now existed. That was the opinion expressed in London. He would now give the opinion expressed in Dublin where the servants of the Post Office had also an organisation. It would be remembered that last year they said distinctly that the constitution of the Committee had caused much dissatisfaction in the service. They had declared that the findings of the Committee which was appointed could nor be accepted as final, and that a Parliamentary Committee was still demanded by the postal servants. It would naturally be expected that he should give some reasons why this demand had been made. He would not attempt to trespass on the prerogatives of English and Scotch Members. He would leave them to bring forward the grievances of the postal servants in England and Scotland. He would deal with the grievances that affected his own country and specially his own constituency. He had been

1235
inundated with letters in regard to these grievances, and he had pestered the noble Lord in regard to them more than he wished to do.
The first point he wished to draw attention to was that of those called "learners." The question of learners in Ireland was a serious one. What was the system over there. Young lads were taken into the service in an inordinately large number—more than could possibly be required. They were brought in at 6s. a week, and they were kept working at that wage even when they had mastered the business. They were employed in handling most valuable documents—money orders, etc. What was the result? In several cases petty thefts had been committed by boys earning 6s. a week, lie said that was not right. It was not a wage that the Government should offer to these boys. The Government would say that they were only learners and that they would have the opportunity later of being appointed on the establishment. Yes, but what was the length of time that these youths had to wait. In Dublin they had had to wait in many instances fourteen months before they were appointed permanently; in Belfast they had to wait, twelve months, in Cork ten months; in Derry and Limerick an indefinite period. They very often had to wait until some person died before they were taken on to the permanent stag, lie would appeal to the noble Lord not to bring these young men into the service of the Post Office unless he could hold out the hope of some reasonable chance of promotion. The hon. Member for Dundee had instanced the ease of a young lady who two years ago entered the service and was working still at the miserable salary of 5s. a week. She had not yet received a permanent appointment. That was not a system that should be allowed to go on. It was nothing less than sweating. It was a method of getting cheap labour, and he said that a big Department like the Post Office should be above such a system. They should be prepared to pay learners a proper salary, or not appoint them at all, unless within a reasonable period—say, three months. They should be paid a fair salary when they had to deal with valuable correspondence. There should
1236
not be a terrible temptation placed in their way. Young men were very often brought from country districts to London, Dublin, and other large cities, and they were not able to keep body and soul together on the wages they received. He hoped the noble Lord would pay attention to these grievances.
Another class he wished to call attention to was the dual workers. He had brought the case of these men before the noble Lord on several occasions. There were young men who came, into the service and were supposed to be telegraphists and sorters. The practice was that these young men for twelve months were engaged in sorting. At the end of that period, if it suited the convenience of the controller or some other party, a young man who had been engaged as a sorter was clapped down at an instrument and he was expected to be as proficient and expert in the manipulation of the machine as if he had been continuously at the work. The noble Lord had stated that he considered it was the way for bringing about; a competent and proper staff of men. With all due respect he might tell him that he had had some experience himself in the manipulation of a machine, and he knew that if a man were taken away from a machine he had been in the habit of manipulating and put back to it twelve months afterwards he would not be as expert at the work as if he had been continuously engaged at it. He did not think it was fair to these young men that that system should exist. The reply would be that it existed in London and all over England as well. That might be so, but he knew that it did not exist to the same extent as it was carried on in Ireland. He noticed from the Report of the Tweed mouth Commission that it was the intention then that the dual worker should get so many hours a day at the machine and so many hours sorting. The system of taking a man twelve months from the machine was not calculated to develop the service or to promote the interest of the public. What was the result? If a young man made a mistake he was hauled up before his superiors, a black mark was put against him, and he was probably on that account declared not eligible for promotion. It might be that he was riot an expert

1237
operator and did not give the satisfaction expected. He held it was not in the interest of the service that such a system should be carried on. He quoted what the Irish Times and Evening Mail had said in condemnation of the system, pointing out that both of these papers generally supported the Government. He hoped the noble Lord would pay some deference to the opinions of these journals. He could quote from the Freeman's Journal to the same effect. The fact was that the whole Press of Dublin had complained over and over again with reference to the system of dual work. He had shown that it was not for the advantage either of the worker or of the public generally.
The hon. Member for Dundee had alluded to the long hours worked by the Post Office officials in Scotland, and the hon. Gentleman who preceded him spoke with reference to Christmas pressure. He wished to state to the Committee what was taking place every day in Dublin. It was promised at the time of the Tweedmouth Commission that split duties would be ns far as possible abolished. He had brought this question before the noble Lord, who stated in reply that the promise had been complied with in Dublin. He could assure the noble Lord, from the information he had received, that the system did exist. He hoped the noble Lord when he heard the facts would not tolerate its continuance. It was no unusual thing in Dublin for men to go on duty at five in the morning and to be kept for two hours. After the pressure was over they were sent away, and they came back at eleven o'clock for two or perhaps three hours. They went away at two and came back at four to work on to eight. He asked any Member of the House to say whether that was a fair system, or one which should be tolerated in connection with the Postal Service. If the men were practically in the service of the Post Office from five in the morning till eight at night, what time had they to educate their minds, to take physical exercise, or, in fact, to do anything but go home and sit at the fireside or rest on the sofa? A Committee of this House was asked for last year to inquire into the grievances, but the noble Lord's predecessor did not rise to the occasion. Last year he stated that this question
1238
would come up year after year, and the time of the House would be wasted discussing it until it was taken up and dealt with in a thorough manner. The Postmaster-General had been spoken of in glowing terms, and he trusted that his term of office would be marked by reforms which would give satisfaction to all concerned. He did not wish to flatter the noble Lord, but he knew that he had a great name among postal servants. He hoped he would maintain that name by showing that he was anxious to ameliorate the condition of those in the service of the Post Office, making it what it should be, the model employer in the country. It was stated that these men were to get nine hours rest, but it was well known that in the United Kingdom there was no such system. In some cases they might get nine hours rest, but, as a general rule, this arrangement was not carried out as it should be.
The hon. Member for Dundee also complained with respect to Scotland of what there was also reason to complain of in Ireland, namely, the depletion of the staff. He was satisfied that it was not the Government who wished to do that. It was done by officials at the head of affairs who insisted on cutting down the staff in every possible direction, so as to show what economists they were. The result was that the messages were delayed, because there was no one present to answer the signal. Press messages were also delayed. That was a very serious matter, and should be dealt with immediately. Since the war broke out between Russia and Japan a special staff of men had been appointed in the Dublin office, but he believed it was the opinion of the supervisors that the additional staff found sufficient employment in dealing with the ordinary work. He himself had worked on into Sunday morning dealing with war telegrams, in the production of his paper and knew the pressure, and he insisted that it was not right that the public service should suffer in the way it did.
An even more important question he wished to raise was in reference to the manner of filling up the appointments in the post and telegraph service in Ireland. He had no hesitation in saying that intelligence and efficiency did not

1239
get the promotion they deserved. Favouritism was rampant in the service, and he declared that that had been proved up to the hilt. The noble Lord had been imposed upon by his under-officials in a recent case which he had brought before him, which was a perfect scandal. No encouragement was given to young men to look for promotion, which they had a right to expect. Last year, on the 23rd of March, he had brought this question about promotion before the noble Lord's predecessor. He was satisfied with the reply at the time; but he ought to have taken it with the proverbial grain of salt. The answers given by the Postmaster-General were really the answers of the subordinates in his office, and he thought that it was the duty of the Postmaster-General to go into these matters personally. On 7th May last he put another Question to the then Postmaster-General on the same subject, and the reply of the right hon. Gentleman was—
"I have nothing to add to the answer which I pave to the hon. Member on this subject on 23rd March, beyond stating that the officer to whom he is supposed to refer has not been appointed to any superior grade. She has been lent temporarily to the Central Telephone Exchange, for work for which she has special qualifications."
Then on 19th April this year he put a Question on the same subject, and the noble Lord replied—
"The lady to whom the hon. Member is understood to refer has been appointed to be first-class assistant supervisor in the Central Telephone Exchange, a post for which during her temporary employment at the Central Exchange she showed herself to be fully qualified."
He was not finding fault with the appointment, but with the favouritism displayed. This girl was appointed simply because she had strong friends at Court. Such a system should not be allowed to exist as appointing individuals over the heads of seniors who were equally qualified. He dwelt on this case because it showed how favouritism and nepotism were triumphant, how ability was discouraged, and efficiency was neglected. The Telegraph Chronicle commenting on this case said—
"Pledges given in the House of Commons are set aside, and Postmasters-General are given answers at variance with facts. We commend this incident to Lord Stanley. He is young to the work, and is an honourable
1240
man. He should demand an explanation from his friends at the Central Telephone Office, as it is known that the lady in question boasted before she left the Central Telephone Office she was to be promoted to the rank of supervisor at the Telephone Exchange."
That was what was taking place in England, but something similar was occurring in Ireland at the same time. He would read an extract from a letter he had received from one of his own constituents—
"As a direct result of the system of promotion, a set of men have got to the head of affairs in the Dublin Sorting Office who are not able to fill their duties creditably. An instance of this is their blundering incapacity in handling the American mails landed at Queenstown. The Cunard Company supplies a special service when the English portion of the mail is landed at Queenstown, yet the controller of the Dublin Sorting Office will not supply ample staff, with the result that large portions of every mail are sent unsorted to Liverpool and London. A man with no knowledge of the Dublin office was promoted to the rank of first-class assistant superintendent over the heads of all those senior to him on the clerks class, and over all those holding the rank of second-class assistant superintendent. This man has shown no special ability since lie came to Dublin. He has never performed any duties of any importance without assistance, and at the present time he is performing a duty with the assistance and guidance of a Dublin-trained second-class assistant superintendent."
That was the manner in which in the service men with special qualifications were passed over. Character and ability stood for nothing. He was informed that in that case 117 men had been passed over who were senior to the man appointed. When he brought the subject before the House he was told that there was not one of these passed over who were suitable for promotion, and he said at the time that that statement was not correct. In those promotions reliable men in the clerks class and the second-class assistant superintendents had been passed over for junior men with less ability and experience. His correspondent further said that—
"Quite a feature of the promotion was the selection of one of those who was principally concerned in the Corcoran defalcations. The controller who was censured in that case had his salary increased, and his status improved."
And, it being half-past Seven of the clock the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Resolution to be reported upon Monday next; Committee also report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  MILWR AND DISTRICT MINES DRAINAGE BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
  MR. MCKEANsaid that in the absence of the hon. Baronet who had intended to move this Instruction, the duty of so doing had fallen on himself. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in his speech on Monday last, in support of the Second Reading of the Bill, had stated that if he thought the carrying out of this drainage scheme would in any way interfere with the water in St. Winifred's Well he would not vote for it, but to preclude such a possibility or to indemnify any sufferers against loss, a clause should be put into the Bill to safeguard them. Mr. Deputy-Speaker never spoke hastily; his words were weighed, and the suggestion he had made was considered by those who opposed the Bill a very valuable and important one. The Motion was designed to carry into effect that suggestion, and that being so, he failed to see how any person who voted for the Second Reading of the Bill could possibly oppose it. All it asked was that if the water supply of the town of Holywell was interfered with, or if the supply of this old time-honoured well, which was a great sanatorium resorted to by sufferers for the cure of diseases which baffled the skill of medical science, was cut off, and the water in the well diminished, the promoters of this Bill should pay compensation to those affected. The drainage scheme projected and carried out twenty years ago had materially interfered with the flow of water through St. Winifred's Well and depleted it to the extent of one million or a million and a half gallons per hour. The present drainage scheme was much more gigantic, and would be followed by infinitely more serious effects. He welcomed the opportunity of proposing this Instruction, because it afforded an opportunity to certain Gentlemen who, on Monday last he believed, voted against their principles, Gentlemen who on public platforms constantly spoke of "government by the people for the people," but who in this House overrode the will of the people; who advocated the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number, and who on the previous
  1242
  Monday voted for the greatest good for the fewest number.
  MR. NANNETTIformally seconded the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to insert clauses in the Bill providing for compensation water for the use of the riparian owners and other persons affected by the provisions of the Bill."—(Mr. McKean.)
  MR. YERBURGHexpressed the opinion that the hon. Member for South Monaghan had misinterpreted the argument adduced by Mr. Deputy-Speaker on the Second Heading of this Bill, and submitted that what that argument really pointed to was that Mr. Deputy-Speaker did not think the evils suggested by the opponents to the Bill would accrue, but if their contention was proved then a clause should be inserted in the Bill to safeguard the interests of those affected. But whether the clause was necessary could only be proved in Committee. This Instruction would deprive the Committee of any freedom in dealing with this particular question. It gave them a mandate by which they were compelled holus-bolus to insert this clause. The hon. Member opposite had stated that since the present drainage scheme had been in operation the water in St. Winifred's Well had diminished. The figures which had been submitted to the House of Lords did not bear out that contention; those figures had not been challenged and he now tendered them as being accurate. From them it would be seen that in 1868, before the drainage scheme referred to had been passed, the supply of water to St. Winifred's Well was 19¼ tons per minute, in 1903 it was 19¾ tons per minute. Those figures showed that the drainage scheme now in operation had not affected the supply of water to St. Winifred's Well in the least. The whole question at issue was so complicated and so intricate that it was quite impossible for this House to arrive at a proper conclusion upon the matter. He therefore submitted that the proper course to pursue was to refer the matter to a Committee, before which evidence might be called, experts on water-supply examined and cross-examined, and

  1243
  the evidence on both sides heard. In that way and in that way alone could a proper decision be arrived at. The statements of the promoters on the one hand and the opponents of the Bill on the other were so contradictory that he ventured to submit to the House that they could not have any better proof of the necessity of the Bill being examined before a Committee, and he was quite certain they could trust this matter to a Committee with the greatest confidence.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid the argument put forward in support of the Instruction that some loss might be inflicted on certain people owing to the water being diverted from St. Winifred's Well was a good one if it could be supported by evidence, but the only place in which that argument could be proved was before a Committee upstairs. The proper course, therefore, would be to allow the Bill to go before the Committee in order to see whether that argument was well-founded. If this Instruction was carried it would he impossible to raise the argument at all, because the Instruction was a mandate to insert the clause. If the Committee did not do justice the hon. Gentleman opposite had his opportunity on Report, which was the proper occasion on which to advance the argument for the Instruction he now proposed. He entirely disagreed with the interpretation placed upon Mr. Deputy-Speaker's word by the hon. Member opposite, and agreed with the hon. Member for Chester that what Mr. Deputy-Speaker desired to convey to the House was the fact that if in Com-
  mittee it was proved that loss would be inflicted in various directions by this Bill, a clause should be inserted to indemnify those concerned against any such loss. On these grounds he opposed the instruction.
  MR. TOMKINSONsaid that the Bill, from what he had heard, would result in certain good to the mines, and there would be an increased amount of employment available. He hoped that the Bill would go to a Committtee as an open reference unfettered by any conditions.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. JEFFREYS,)said he hoped that the House would not carry this Instruction, as it would deprive the Committee upstairs of its freedom of action. Some remarks bad been made as to what was said by the Chairman of Committees on Monday on the Second Reading of the Bill. He was authorised to say that the Chairman of Committees then stated that this was an engineering question, which should be left to the Committee upstairs, where evidence could be taken and a decision arrived at. If the Committee thought it necessary, after hearing the evidence, that a clause of this kind should be put in, they would have perfect liberty to do so, and it would certainly be an unusual thing to tie the hands of the Committee by giving them a mandatory Instruction of this kind.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 59: 122. (Division List, No. 123.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. M'Kean and Mr. Flavin.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich

  Renwick, George

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh O.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Arrol, Sir William

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. Hicks

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthnr Fred.

  Sannderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Bignold, Arthur

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bigwood, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Blnndell, Colonel Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Shackleton, David James

  Burt, Thomas

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Caldwell, James

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Spear, John Ward

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (N'orthants

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks, N. R.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Chapman, Edward

  Layland Barratt, Francis

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Stroyan, John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Crombie, John William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Denny, Colonel

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Tuff, Charles

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Ure, Alexander

  Doughty, George

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E (Notts.)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Forster, Henry William

  Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)

  Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R (Bath).

  Gardner, Ernest

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Wylie, Alexander

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr Yerburgh and Sir Frederick Banbury.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  SUPPLY [9th ALOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1904–5.

    REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £6,400,618, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office Services, the
    1246
    Expenses of Post Office Savings Banks, and Government Annuities and Insurances, and the Collection of the Post Office Revenue."
    MR. NANNETTI,who was speaking when the sitting was suspended, continued his remarks. He said he also wished to bring under the attention of the Committee the case of the female telegraphic operators in Ireland. He had received a letter from one of the employees, in which she said—
    "I beg to draw your attention to what I consider two glaring injustices to female telegraphists in the Dublin General Post Office. I am writing to you, as girls from all parts of the country are affected, and I am certain that a few Questions asked by you in the House, or

    1247
    even private inquiries from the Postmaster General, would lead to some reform. (1.) Why are vacancies for female telegraphists in the Dublin General Post Office being frequently filled by girls who have not passed a Civil Service examination, limited or otherwise? By way of explanation may inform yon that daughters of superintendents and other high officials of the Department are brought into the office and taught to operate the instrument, and then put into the first vacancy that occurs without any further examination. The result is that examinations are few and far between in Dublin, and when one is announced it is for three or four vacancies. People who are paying grinders' fees to have their daughters trained for the examinations, which it is stated by the Treasury and Civil Service Commissioners is necessary to secure a Government situation, and that is permissible, are thus swindled by this system of influence at which the Department winks. Of course as long as no question is asked, incompetent persons, that is as regards passing a qualifying educational examination with outsiders, will continue to secure these positions, and will, with their influence in the Department, be pushed over the heads of those who have passed by open competition. (2.) How many applications were received from female telegraphists in the Dublin General Post Office for August, 1903, Bank Holiday, and how many of these applications were granted?"
    If he gave the name of this lady he knew what would happen to her at the hands of the officials in Dublin; but he thought he was not asking too much when he asked the noble Lord the Postmaster-General to look into these matters. A Question had appeared on the Notice Paper, but he had not seen any answer to it, in reference to the appointment of postmasters in Ireland. There was a grievance that when any vacancies occurred in postmasterships, strangers were imported from England and Scotland to fill the places. He had no objection to Englishmen and Scotchmen being employed, but if Irish employees were competent for the position, it was only fair that they should receive the promotion to which they had a right.
    He wished to draw attention to another matter which had created a great deal of soreness. When His Majesty was about to visit Ireland, the officials in Dublin knew that an additional staff would be necessary for the increased work. The officials in London, without consulting with the local authorities in Ireland as to whether they would be capable of coping with the pressure of work, sent over a staff of men from this country to Ireland. When
    1248
    he put a Question to the noble Lord on the subject, his reply was that on all occasions where there was a pressure of work, a number of specially trained men were appointed to do it. He had made inquiries since, and found that there was a great deal of truth in that; but what he wanted to know was, if ever they heard of a man coming from Ireland to England to meet emergencies. Why should they not have in Ireland, not only in Dublin, but in Belfast, Cork, and Limerick, a number of men who would be able to take up this special duty rather than bring over men from England? That was the way in which the difficulty might be met. People in Ireland felt very sore about this matter; they felt that it was a slight, on their intelligence. During the motor race last year it was said that the telegraph system broke down. Yes, it broke down where the Englishmen were, at Ballyshannon, but not in Dublin where the Irishmen were. The supervisor went into a country of which he knew nothing and was put over the head of local men. During the time of the National Convention which was held in Dublin, there were more Press messages sent from that city than during the visits of their Majesties, and there was no hitch then, the local men being equal to the occasion, but during His Majesty's last visit there were complaints in reference to the delay of the Press telegrams from Punchestown and Leopardstown. On the occasion of the visit of Her late Majesty to Dublin there was not the slightest hitch, because the management was left in the hands of local men, and lie believed that there were men in Dublin, Belfast, and Cork who were quite competent to do the work in times of pressure if they had a chance to do it. This was what the Irish Times said about the matter—
    "The Royal visit is to be of a semi-private character, and there is not the slightest reason to suppose, given fair warning, that the Dublin telegraph staff is not in a position to respond to any cell which may be made upon it. This practice of the introduction, temporarily, of Englishmen into an Irish public department is calculated to promote the impression that the earliest opportunity would be taken by the authorities to institute Englishmen to Irish appointments. One has only to look around and to note the number of Englishmen holding Post Office appointments in this country, and

    1249
    to contrast the number of Irishmen holding similar positions in England, to appreciate the fears of the Dublin telegraph staff."
    That was from the Irish Times, a paper not likely to be prejudiced in this matter. He might say that the whole tenor of his remarks was directed to the fact that at the end he intended to ask the Postmaster-Genera to appoint a Committee to examine into and deal with the grievances of the Postal Service generally.
    He had received many complaints from Ireland of the treatment of the postal officials there, and he now desired to refer to the case of MR. Woods, whose grievance he had called attention to when this Vote was before the House in the previous year. MR. Woods had been in the Postal Service sufficiently long to earn his pension, but, unfortunately for him, he fell into some little error in 1868 which brought the head of his department down upon him; he was reported on that occasion and he was fined, and therefore had paid the penalty for the offence he had committed. He believed the offence of which MR. Woods was guilty was leaving his post without permission, but MR. Woods grievance was that he was tried behind his back, was not allowed to be heard in his own defence, and that even on conviction his superiors thought his case was so good that they never inflicted the penalty. In 1874, when the postal organisation was started, Woods became a member and signed a memorial which was sent to the Postmaster-General. At that time it was against the rules that such a thing should be done, and Woods was again punished. This method of approaching the Postmaster-General was later legalised, but this man was again punished. Hp was now out of the service in which he had been an exemplary officer; he discharged his duties with fidelity, and to the satisfaction of his superior officers. What he (Mr. Nannetti) desired to put to the Committee, was that those offences were so far back as 1868 and 1874, and that the man if he had committed them, was punished, but afterwards when he had qualified for a pension he was deprived of a portion of it because of those offences for which he had already been punished, and which were com-
    1250
    mitted so long ago. He knew perfectly well that the answer the Postmaster-General would give was the stereotyped answer that was received from the right hon. Gentleman's subordinates. Another case was that of a young man a telegraphist in North Wall. He in some way brought down his superior officer upon him; he had committed some alleged paltry offence and at once his salary was reduced from 24s. to 20s. a week. He had no chance to defend himself, and his prospects were blighted by the miserable trumpery case which had been brought against him. The next case to which he desired to refer was the case of Scully. He did not defend Scully's conduct, but the system of petty tyranny which existed in the Irish post offices was of such a character that a highly strung young man like Scully was impelled to resent it. He admitted that Scully had committed a breach of discipline, but lie submitted to the Committee that the postal officials should be men who could control their temper, and no: lead by their actions a man into committing a breach of discipline. Scully was a man in the employ of the postal service: ho was a competent and expert mechanic—a kind of engineer—and was the man who had been teaching all the other operatives in the service. The action which led to this breach of discipline was that he applied for a room in the post office which he might use for the purpose of teaching his class in engineering. He was met by his superior officer most contemptuously. His officer, pointing to an old store room, said, "You can have the store room to teach your class." Another instance which he had not before put before the Committee, but which showed the way in which young men were treated in the Postal Service, was that of a young man who applied to serve at the front at the time of the Boer War as a Volunteer. When he applied he was found to be too young and was put back, but when he again applied he was taken on. He was a youth of good parentage and it appeared that he had on entering the Yeomanry described himself as a Civil servant. There was no doubt that it was done in ignorance and that he imagined being employed by the Post Office that he was a Civil servant,

    1251
    but when one of the heads of the department, MR. Pomeroy, heard of this he wrote to the superintendent and urged that the Yeomanry authorities should have their attention called to the subterfuge by which the young man had deceived them. To the credit of the superior officer it might be said that he told MR. Pomeroy he hid much better mind his own business. That showed the way in which the heads of the service behaved. The state of the Postal Service in Ireland was such that he appealed to the Postmaster-General to appoint a Committee to inquire into the whole of the grievances. The noble Lord had always treated him with kindness and courtesy, and it was because the noble Lord could not of himself know what was going on and always gave the stereotyped answer with which he was supplied, it was only with the object of calling attention to the necessity of thoroughly investigating these matters, that he moved a reduction of £100.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A, 1, be reduced by £100, in respect of the Salary of the Postmaster-General."—(Mr. Nannetti.)
    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDcomplained that the major portion of the debate had been occupied with small details, such as grievances of a local and personal character and going back as far as 18G8. With regard to the general position, and particularly in matters which affected the men, lie considered that the Postmaster-General had met them very fairly. They had been asked to wait for the Report which would shortly he published, and he believed that most Members of the House were prepared to do so. He suggested that small matters of detail could be dealt with very much better in the private room of the Postmaster-General, or by letter or other communication, than by occupying the time of the House which ought to be taken up with discussing important matters of principle. He thought that the Postal Department was probably the most backward Department of the whole of the Civil Service in regard to its general arrangements, and, in fact, in all respects. He would compare for a moment the organisation, facilities, and charges in the Postal Department with
    1252
    what they were in this country 230 years ago. In 1680 letters were carried eighty miles for 2d. There was a penny post in London, and letters and parcels up to 11b. in weight were carried for a penny There were hourly collections, and ten deliveries daily in the centre of London, and six in the suburbs. He thought it would be conceded in comparing that state of affairs with what we had to-day, that no very great improvement had taken place in the 230 years with regard either to the facilities or the charges of the Post Office. But what happened to the Postal Department? It unfortunately fell into the hands of men who paid so much to the State for fanning out its rights, and eventually, a century or to later, it became a mere State Department, became what it was to-day, namely, a machine for collecting as much as possible out of the public, and giving the fewest possible facilities in return. He would illustrate that by comparing our position with that of other countries. There were many towns on the Continent where five communications could be sent for a penny. All over India communications could be sent for a penny, and in Japan 100 communications could be sent for that sum at a speed which, in a good many respects, compared very favourably with what was accomplished in this country. Taking into account the increased transit facilities and the lower cost of taking goods about the country, we ought to be able to send ten letters a day to all parts of the United Kingdom for a penny. He argued that no profit whatever should be exacted by this Department out of the trade of the country.
    The evils and difficulties of this service all arose from mere profit making. That was his contention, and to the extent that the receipts from the Post Office exceeded the expenses of carrying on the Department it was a tax. It was, moreover, a tax upon intercourse, commerce, and trade not collected in the guise of a tax, as all taxes ought to be. If the Postal Service was to make a surplus it was the first duty of the Department with that surplus to make an efficient and contented staff, and to do general justice to those in the employ of the Department, who to-day were amongst the most discontented, and

    1253
    properly discontented, Civil servants they had. In the next place, that surplus ought to be employed in giving increased facilities to the public and in reducing charges. In fact, the public who contributed the revenue of the Post Office should get the benefit. He might be asked where the State was to get the £4,000,000 odd which it would not get from the Post Office if they did not tax the trade, commerce, and intercourse of the country by collecting it as at present from the Postal Department. He simply referred those who asked that question to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, who would probably be able to answer it a great deal better than he could.
    LORD STANLEY,in replying upon the discussion, said the last speaker had offered the most tempting prospect for any Postmaster-General. He had asked him to get rid of all his profits It he could do that he believed he would be able to meet most of the demands put upon him. He declined to enter into the question of how to make good the £4,000,000 which they would lose if they did not make a profit on the Post Office arrangements. He would deal first with the speech of the hon. Member for Dublin. First of all, as to the appointments in which he said that men were passed over. He wished the House to understand clearly the position when men were passed over. They were passed over with his authority after he had seen all the papers concerned. If they were going to proceed upon the principle of seniority in preference to efficiency they would perhaps stop any chance of favouritism, but at the same time they would not find it to the advantage of the public service. Wherever they wanted efficiency they must not select by seniority, but choose the men most fitted, and whenever they did that they would invariably find that those men who were passed over would not admit that they were not capable of fulfilling the task; and of course they thought it was favouritism. That, however, was not the case. All these cases were brought before his notice personally, and he could assure hon. Members that no favouritism was shown, and he always endeavoured to select for positions, in the
    1254
    public interest, the men who were best capable of fulfilling the task. The hon. Member had referred to the class of postmasters who he alleged were appointed from England into Ireland over the heads of Irishmen in the postal services. Apparently the hon. Member did not recognise that the postal service was one where there was no distinction of country made, and promotion was made irrespective of where a man was serving; and the fact of a place being located in Ireland did not debar an Englishman or a Scotchman from being appointed any more than it debarred an Irishman from being appointed to a post in England or Scotland. He believed that in the last ten years as regards post-masterships nineteen men had gone from England to Ireland and twelve had come from Ireland to England. He was only speaking of men who had been transferred from England to Ireland and vice versâ. He did not think these numbers showed the inequality assumed by the hon. Member for Dublin. The hon. Member had also referred to learners being kept for a long time on low wages before they came on to the establishment. These men were taken on as learners on the distinct understanding, which they thoroughly realised, that they could only be appointed to established posts as those posts became vacant. He agreed that it was not a good thing for them to be kept too long at learning, and he should endeavour to go into the question as to whether they could not reduce the number of learners so as to enable the established post to be reached after a shorter period of service than at the present time. The hon. Member had also referred to dual workers. As a general rule he did not think dual working was a very good thing, but there were no doubt many cases where the practice of dual working saved a worse evil and that was split duties. The hon. Member for Dublin had mentioned cases in Ireland—he presumed he meant Dublin-where the men were employed twelve months on postal work, and then put for twelve months on telegraph work. He would undertake to look into those cases, because he thought that was a wrong practice, and he would inquire into the

    1255
    matter with the view of stopping such a practice if possible.
    MR. NANNETTIsaid he did not object to the men learning both sorting and postal duties, but he thought it was unfair to the men to keep them for such a long time away from practice on the telegraphic instrument, and then suddenly send them back again and expect them to be as proficient as if they had been at that particular work the whole time.
    LORD STANLEYsaid he was fully in accord with the views of the lion. Member on that point, and he would see what he could do in the matter. There were many other questions, 'out perhaps hon. Members would forgive him if on that occasion he did not go further into detail. With regard to the case of MR. Woods whose pension had been reduced, as a matter of fact the cause of the reduction was not that referred to by the lion. Member. In all cases of pensions they were awarded by the Treasury, and those pensions depended upon a man's good conduct throughout his career, and all the facts of an important nature which appeared against a man's character had to be brought to the notice of the Treasury, and in this particular instance it was numerous irregularities, including one in the course of his last year of service, that were the cause of the reduction of his pension. With reference to the man Scully he thought the hon. Member opposite was a little ungrateful, because on a former occasion he had dealt with that case very fully and he thought he had met the hon. Member as fairly as he possibly could in making an allowance for what might be considered an excusable outburst of temper.
    He would now deal with some of the questions raised by the hon. Member for Canterbury. In one in particular he sympathised entirely with the hon. Gentleman, but he confessed he could not himself see any remedy in connection with it. It was the question of dealing with lottery circulars. There was nothing he would like more than to stop the delivery of these lottery circulars, but he did not see how he could deal with them. In Canada the post office authorities had the power to open letters; but he should
    1256
    not like to see that power taken in this country. At one time in his life it was his duty to look through letters, and the duty was most disagreeable. He would be very much averse to any power being vested in the Post Office authorities which would give rise to the suspicion in anyone's mind that his letters were tampered with in the Post Office. The evil of the lottery tickets was great, but the remedy proposed would be a greater evil still. The hon. Member also suggested that a man who had posted a letter by mistake should be allowed, on proper identification, to recall it. That plan would be attended with such serious risks that he did not think it would be approved in this country. With regard to the question of accumulated poundage on postal orders, he agreed that on occasion it was a hardship, though he did not think that a postal order should be allowed to pass from hand to hand for an indefinite time like a bank note. He would like to make an alteration in the present system, but he was met with the difficulty that it would require an Act of Parliament. All Act of Parliament also provided that an embossed stamp removed from its envelope could not be used for postage purposes, but in cases where the envelope bearing the embossed stamp had been torn, or for any other reason was rendered useless, if application was made the money would be refunded. He had also been urged to see to the reduction of the postage on newspapers to China. No doubt the rates charged over the Siberian Railway wore excessive, but this was hardly the lime to negotiate for the reduction of the rate on newspapers sent by that route into China. The hon. Member was mistaken in regard to the charge for telegrams to France. The minimum charge for a telegram to France was 10d. and from France to this country it was one franc. Therefore the hon. Member was entirely wrong, because as far as possible the charges in both countries were the same. The hon. Member for Canterbury bad alluded to the grievance of reply-paid telegraph forms not being al owed to be used after three months; he would point out that, as all telegrams were destroyed after three months, this regulation was necessary to prevent the

    1257
    fraud that would be possible if the post office authorities were unable to refer to the original telegrams. With regard to the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Dundee there were certain points and recommendations made with which he was not entirely satisfied, and he had referred the matter back in order that certain points might be cleared up before he came to a decision. He thought lie had now as far as possible dealt with all the points which had been put to him.
    MR. BAYLEYasked the noble Lord if he could make any statement in regard to the sanitary arrangements of post offices.
    LORD STANLEYsaid the sanitary arrangements of post offices was a point upon which he would be glad to make a statement. He admitted that the sanitary arrangements of many of the post offices which he had himself seen were certainly not all that could be desired. In main of them to attempt to make the sanitary arrangements really good and in accordance with modern ideas was practically impossible, and the only way to deal with them was to pull the buildings down altogether and erect new buildings on modern lines. That, as far as they possibly could, they were doing, but the delays which occurred in consequence of the difficulty of getting suitable land and making all the necessary arrangements were very great, and they were not able to progress as rapidly in this matter as he should like. He was perfectly ready whenever any case was brought to his notice to consider the matter, and the two cases which had been brought forward by the hon. Member should have a special inspection of them made. He did not think it would be right in all cases to call in a factory inspector, although he was ready to do this whenever it was necessary; and in cases where he had any reasonable doubt as to the state of things and where he thought it would have a good effect he should have no hesitation whatever in asking the Home Office to redeem the promise they gave last year, and to lend their factory inspectors to make such inspections as he might deem necessary.
    MR. BAYLEYasked in cases where it was alleged that insanitary conditions prevailed would the noble Lord
    1258
    give the hon. Member representing that constituency permission to inspect the sanitary conditions himself.
    LORD STANLEYsaid he could hardly promise to do that, and he preferred to have the cases looked into himself. With regard to the question of a universal penny postage which had been alluded to by the hon. Member for Canterbury he was afraid that he could not hold out any prospects at the present time of such a proposal being universally adopted throughout the world. At present we must be content with having a penny post with our Colonies—only one more link in the chain was required—and of giving them and receiving from them a preference. He was afraid that it was not in his power to hold out any hope, at all events this year, of carrying out any such proposal.
    MR. WEIRsaid that the hon. Member for Liverpool had referred to a question raised by an hon. Member from Ireland which might be a trivial matter to Liverpool, but was one of vital importance to the small towns and villages in Ireland. He thought the hon. Member for Liverpool had wandered very much from the practical side of the question. He stated that ten communications could be sent in Japan for 1d., but the hon. Member forgot to tell the Committee that the people there lived very differently from the people in this country. Their food consisted largely of rice and a little fish. The conditions of life were altogether different: the houses, scrupuously clean, contained little or no furniture, and in the warm weather, many of the toilers were attired in nature's garb or a cheap kimona. Even the blind, who live on charity in this country, earn their living by engaging as masseurs and masseuses, massage being much in favour in Japan and at a cost within the reach of all classes of the community.
    THE CHAIRMAN: That is a question rather far away from the Post Office Vote.
    MR. WEIRthought he might safely refer to one or two other matters. The hon. Member for Liverpool had spoken

    1259
    of the £4,000,000 profit which was made annually by the Post Office, but apparently the hon. Member was not aware that a very few years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer set aside out of the Post Office revenue £700,000 for the extension of postal facilities in the rural districts. He was pleased to say that whenever he had approached the noble Lord, he had found him most courteous, and he not only made promises but gave effect to his promises. They must give the noble Lord time to carry out reforms. He was glad to see that £5,000 a year had been given for gratuities to sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and auxiliary postmen. Many of those faithful servants had worked for years, and when they were too old to carry on their duties it was precious rough on them to be cast off without a sixpence. The noble Lord had made a very good start in this direction, and he hoped that in future years he would be able to increase that sum to £15,000 or £20,000. They had also been told that the noble Lord was making some arrangements for wireless telegraphy, and that he objected to monopolies, and particularly the monopoly of the National Telephone Company.
    THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order That question does not arise on this Vote.
    MR. WEIRsaid the noble Lord had referred to the question.
    LORD STANLEYsaid that what he stated was that he was glad the other Vote had been postponed, because it would enable him to make u statement upon that question.
    MR. WEIRsaid the noble Lord had expressed a desire to extend the use of motor cars in the Post Office service, and he trusted he would be able to give full effect to that desire. He did not think the noble Lord could have a better field for his experiments than in the Highlands of Scotland.
    COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid he wished to revert to a
    1260
    point which considerably concerned the public convenience. It would be within the memory of the Committee that there was a service called the District Messenger Service, which had before now come into collision with the Post Office, but they had always been anxious to give the public the best service they could at a small profit. Recently the manager of the District Messenger Service went to America, and there he saw an invention of great service, and he brought it back with him to this country. The improvement was that instead of ringing the bell and waiting, as they had to do now for the messenger to arrive, there was a telephone attachment to the dial, so that after ringing they could speak directly to the man in the office and ask if he could send a messenger at once or how long he would have to wait for one. By this arrangement the person was not kept waiting until the messenger arrived. He understood that the District Messenger Service manager had submitted this improvement to the Postmaster-General and asked for his sanction, but the noble Lord had refused it on the general ground that the telephone attachment to be employed was an infringement of the Post Office telephone monopoly. He would not go so far as to flatly contradict that assertion; but he would point out that it was not likely to be used, even if it could be used, as a competitor to the Post Office telephone. It was a very reasonable improvement on a very useful service, and he trusted that the Postmaster-General would see his way to reconsider his decision on a further examination of the matter.
    MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he desired to allude to the question of betting circulars. He thought it was often the case that those betting circulars came over wholesale from the Continent, and they were then posted with a halfpenny stamp all over the country. He hoped the Postmaster-General would be able to put a stop to the circulation of betting circulars.
    LORD STANLEYsaid that if they bore only a halfpenny stamp they would be open documents and the Post Office would stop them from going out. But, as a matter of fact, they were sent out with

    1261
    a penny stamp and sealed. He had been asked whether, when they were brought into the office in blocks, as was often the case, he could not demand that one of them should be opened in the presence of his representative so that he might ascertain their character. He would not like to say that that was impossible, but ho was afraid it was not a feasible plan. He wished it were.
    MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he received most objectionable circulars. He thought many of them came from Holland. He did not see why the public should pay a penny for letters and the Post Office should be overburdened with perfectly useless circulars sent for a halfpenny. The Post Office tried to do too much for the public. The question of the parcels post cash on delivery had been raised, and he was glad to hear that the noble Lord was going to make inquiries. He thought it would be a very serious thing for poor men who had to carry those mail bags and circulars if the system spoken of was adopted. He strongly protested against the delivery of letters on Sundays. Postmen in the rural districts practically never had a holiday. They got on without Sunday deliveries in London, but all over Scotland and other parts of the country postmen were at work on Sundays. He did not know what the Sunday Observance Society had done in this matter, but he was quite sure that nothing would please the whole countryside more than abolishing the Sunday delivering of letters. Surely people could do without their letters and newspapers being delivered on Sunday, and they might conduct their correspondence on Monday morning. The people were not so wrapt up in business that they could not wait for one day in the week. If hon. Members could only see the difficulties under which rural postmen lived the House would declare that Sunday should be a free day for postmen as well as for other classes of servants. The hon. Member for Liverpool suggested that the Post Office should do without that £4,000,000 profit. He did not know whether the hon. Member would be in favour of putting [2d. on the income-tax, or 2d. more on tea and tobacco, to make good
    1262
    this loss to the revenue, but he thought the hon. Member would be wise to leave matters as they were at the present time. With regard to the mail service, he understood that they were now paying £9,000 for a service to East Africa. He hoped the noble Lord would look into that matter in order to see that he was getting fair value for his money. He was not going to raise a very bitter question concerning the Orkney mails as the noble Lord had promised to look thoroughly into it, but the delivery of the mails to Orkney was very irregular, and they were frequently delayed simply to oblige a few tourists. He knew that the difficulties were very great under the ordinary circumstances of navigation and the stormy weather, but it was an intolerable state of things that the railway companies could simply laugh at the noble Lord and everybody else and deliver the mails exactly as they pleased. That was a matter which the noble Lord could easily remedy. For instance last year going to Orkney ho arrived up to time at Thurso but was detained there for hours waiting for a second train and did not arrive till midnight, and this constantly took place and were matters which were occurring every day in the week in Scotland, and he trusted the Postmaster-General would recognise the inconvenience and the difficult position in which the people of Scotland were placed in consequence of the irregularity in the delivery of the mails. He trusted the noble Lord would inquire into the whole subject and see if he could not compel the railway companies to carry out their obligations.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLcalled attention to the low rate of payment made to sub-postmasters. The noble Lord was aware that these men did a very considerable portion of the work of the Post Office. There were 2,800 of them in Ireland, and they were only paid £23 per annum, including salary and commission. There were in England, Ireland, and Scotland 20,000 sub-postmasters and the total salary and commission paid to them was £588,000, whereas 875 postmasters were paid £29,000. He thought this was a matter which the noble Lord might very wel look into. As showing how unfairly sub-postmasters

    1263
    were treated, he instanced a case where the sub-postmaster of a town resigned his office in a large measure because the income did not pay for the service rendered. The official who was sent to take his place received £3 16s. a week or, in other words, the sub-postmaster who resigned was only paid one-seventh of the amount of the man who came after him. A case had been brought under his notice where the total turnover of the Post Office for a year was £3,500, but the salary and commission of the postmaster in charge only amounted to £35 a year. He thought the class of sub-postmasters ought to be kept in view by the noble Lord when he was distributing the balance that remained. They were men whose claims ought to receive very careful consideration, because of the excellent work they were doing and the long hours during which they were employed. They were sometimes employed from eight hi the morning until eight at night. He thought it should not be said in answer that when one of these offices became vacant a dozen or more people were ready to take it up. That was not the principle on which a great department like the Post Office should select the men who had to do this responsible work. The first condition of service was that the men should be efficient, and being efficient they should get a reasonable wage for the work they had to discharge. He hoped the noble Lord would look carefully into this matter and see whether anything could be done. For some time they had been pressing the noble Lord and his predecessor to make the Irish language an optional subject in the examination for the Post Office This was not merely a question of sentiment with the Irish Members. He did not ask that English postal officials should knew Irish, but there were thousands of men in Ireland at the present time to whom Irish was the language used in their ordinary commercial business, and that should be a reason for giving favourable consideration to the suggestion he had made. He had received a number of letters complaining of the delay or non-delivery of letters written in Irish, and he considered it essential that sorters should know the language.
    MR. THEODORE TAYLORsaid he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the charges in connection with the parcels post between this and other countries. In that matter the Postmaster-General had a fine opportunity of distinguishing his occupation of office by some very much-needed reform. He asked the noble Lord to appoint a small Departmental Committee to inquire into the anomalies of the foreign parcel post rates. Thus, the rate for the carriage of a parcel of 11lb., from this country to Germany was 2s., whilst from Germany to this country it was 1s. 3d. From Germany to Italy it was also 1s. 5d., but from England to Italy it was 2s. 6d. The charge for sending a parcel from England to Malta, one of our own Colonies, was 3s., against 2s. from Germany and 1s. 6d. from France, whilst if the parcel was sent by the overland route from England the charge was as much as 4s. Again, the rate from Germany to New South Wales was 4s. 5d. and from England to New South Wales-6s. It cost 3s. to send a parcel of 11lb., presumably carried by British steamers, from this country to the United States, against 2s. 1d. from Switzerland, in the centre of Europe. The other day a parcel was sent from Sheffield to Bury at the cost of 11d. It could have been sent from Dantzic to Venice or from Bremen to Buda-Pesth for 6d. This was scarcely the way to encourage British trade. Referring to the Postal Guide the lion. Member said it was far behind that of some foreign countries. It had been stated that 250 years ago letters could be sent for a penny, but the comparison was not quite fair to the Postmaster-General, because labour was cheaper then. Hut if there were there facilities 250 years ago, the fact only indicated that we had not progressed so much as we might have done. He suggested that the Postmaster-General should consider the advisability of establishing halfpenny local posts. Such a system would not cause much loss to the general revenue, but it would be a great convenience and a great public service. He believed that a local halfpenny post, within well-defined limits, in large cities, would ultimately pay, and

    1265
    so pave the way towards a general halfpenny inland post, which would get rid or all the present humbug as to what was and what was not a closed letter.
    MR. CLAUDE HAYexpressed the hope that the Postmaster-General would be able to allow a discussion of all the grievances of the postal servants when they received the Committee's Report. There were only 130,000 of the employees dealt with in the inquiry by the Committee, and those who were beyond the purview of the Committee had grievances which ought to be considered. These men had practically abandoned their right to promotion when they undertook Sunday work in London, and they were told that that work would bring them a certain amount of money. For many years they did that work, and then the duties were rearranged, with the result that they were told they would only be allowed to work on alternate Sundays. They now found themselves deprived of a certain amount of salary; and he hoped that in allocating the £5,000 to which his noble friend referred, their claim to compensation would be considered. His noble friend might not be able, at the moment, to give him an answer, but he could assure him that ho would not have brought the question forward had he not thoroughly investigated it and satisfied himself of the justice of the demand. Ho hoped that his noble friend, who was a broad-minded man, would deal with the matter not in any narrow spirit. He would also ask his noble friend if he would lay on the Table the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Indian Mail Service.
    MR. O'MALLEYsaid he wished to direct attention to the condition of postal matters in his constituency. They all recognised that the Post-master-General was very sympathetic and that he desired to remedy any grievance brought to his attention; but the noble Lord was not responsible for many of the grievances of which they complained. He could personally not complain of any want of courtesy on the part of the present or previous Postmaster-General. The Duke of Norfolk had promised when Postmaster-General to do everything in
    1266
    his power to remedy the grievances of which he complained, but no improvement had yet been effected. For instance, the mails in Connemara were still carried by car, although a railway was now running through the district. As a result, the delivery of letters was very late, which was a great hardship, not only on the inhabitants, but also on the English tourists who visited Connemara in the summer months. The reply he had received was that it would cost too much to carry the mails by train and would not pay. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Canterbury referred to the meanness of the Post Office, and he certainly thought that they were acting meanly in this matter. The inhabitants and the visitors to Connemara should not be deprived of proper postal facilities even if they would cost a few hundred pounds. He hoped the noble Lord would look into the matter. There was one question he would ask the noble Lord and that had reference to the agricultural parcel post. He wished to know if anything was to be done to facilitate such a post in Ireland. Efforts were being made to revive small industries in Ireland, and nothing would encourage that so much as an agricultural parcels post.
    MR. SLACKsaid he wished to direct attention to a small reform which would prove remunerative to the Revenue and profitable to the State, namely, a revision of the postal rates charged on magazines and other pablications. There was an immense growth in this class of literature, but the present prohibitive rates prevented a number of magazines from being sent by post. He knew that "Review" and Library copies were largely delivered by hand by Loudon publishers instead of through the Post. He would ask the noble Lord to effect a reform in that direction. He would also wish to direct attention to the postal rates for magazines and newspapers between England and the Colonies. The magazine postal rate between England and Canada was 4d. per 1b., whereas between Canada and the United States it was only Id. That gave American literature a great advantage, and he thought one of the objects of the Government should be to encourage the sale of current

    1267
    English literature in the Colonies, as one easy method of knitting more closely together the bonds of Empire.
    LORD STANLEYsaid that with reference to the question regarding the use of the telephone by the District Messenger Service which was mentioned by his hon. and gallant friend he would look into the matter again. He viewed with the greatest suspicion anything which might infringe the monopoly possessed by the Post Office. He would do everything he possibly could to ensure the convenience of the general public, but at the same time he was very much afraid of the thin end of the wedge being introduced. With regard to the question of the parcels post, it was rather a complicated subject, and he candidly confessed he was not very cognisant of the details; but the hon. Gentleman's statement on the subject was not as accurate as it would appear to be. Under the Parcels Post Convention, to which the United Kingdom did not belong, there was a uniform rate up to 11lbs. but the Post Office, having to pay 55 per cent, of the charges to the railway companies, could not come into the Convention on the same terms as foreign countries where the railways were State-owned. The Post Office had graduated charges. Up to 31bs., which was the general weight of parcels, those charges were considerably lower than foreign rates; and altogether it would be found that their charges did not compare unfavourably with the rates charged by foreign countries. Again the necessity for sea transit between this country and any other country made the rates more expensive than if it were only a case of crossing a frontier. He was quite ready to look into the matter, and see what could be done; but he thought the Post Office was now doing all that could reasonably be expected of it considering it was tied down by Acts of Parliament and had to pay 55 per cent, of the rates it charged to the railway companies. His hon. friend the Member for Hoxton asked him to give a solatium out of the £5,000 he had mentioned to
    1268
    certain men in the General Post Office. These men, however, had not got the case which his hon. friend attempted to make out for them. They had been employed for seven days a week, and he thought the Committee would agree that it was not possible for men so employed to give efficient service; and a rule was adopted that they should not be allowed to work every Sunday, but should be allowed to work every alternate Sunday. He thought that was perfectly right in the interests of the men themselves and for the efficiency of the service. In any case they had no claim on the £5,000, which was provided for entirely different purposes. His hon. friend asked him if he would lay on the Table of the House the Report of the Departmental Committee which inquired into the Eastern Mail Service. He would be very happy to lay it on the Table. With regard to the magazine rates of postage he confessed he was not conversant with the subject, but he would look into it and see what could be done. As regarded the agricultural parcels post, he would inquire into that matter also. Ho hoped the Committee would now allow the Vote to be taken.
    MR. NANNETTIsaid that after the noble Lord's statements he asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    And, it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Resolution to be reported upon Monday-next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING (LONDON) BILL.
  Ordered, That Mr. Bamford Slack, Mr. Bousfield, and Mr. Hayden be Members of the Select Committee.—(Sir A. Acland-Hood.)
  Adjourned at five Minutes after Twelve o'clock.