Sitting of 5 May 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Hampton-in-Arden Gas Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Ipswich Dock Commission Bill [Lords] (King's Consent signified). Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
City of London (Central Criminal Court House) Bill. "To authorise the raising by borrowing of money for the provision and erection of premises for the Sessions of the Central Criminal Court," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time.
Land Drainage Provisional Order. Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under The Land Drainage Act, 1861, relating to lands in the parishes of Owston and West Butterwick, in the county of Lincoln (Parts of Lindsey), ordered to be brought in by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes and Mr. Victor Cavendish.
Land Drainage Provisonal Order Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order under The Land Drainage Act, 1861, relating to
516
lands in the parishes of Owston and West Butterwick, in the county of Lincoln (Parts of Lindsey)," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills and to be printed. [Bill 180.]
London United Tramways Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No. 8).
Mr. HENRY HOBHOUSE reported from the Committee of Group No. 8 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, they had adjourned till Tuesday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock. Report to lie upon the Table.
London and India Docks Company Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide against the destruction of undersized flat fish." [Sea Fisheries Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Chesterfield Gas and Water Board to make new waterworks and extend their gasworks; and for other purposes." [Chesterfield Gas and Water Board Bill [Lords.]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Corporation of Harrogate to construct a temporary tramroad, telephonic communication, and other works in connection with their waterworks; and for other purposes."[Harrogate Waterworks Tramroad Bill [Lords,]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for empowering the Corporation of Leeds to construct certain temporary railways and works to facilitate the construction of their authorised waterworks in the Valley of the Burn, and to authorise the placing of electric lines in certain highways; and for other purposes." [Leeds Corporation (Waterworks) Railway Bill [Lords.]
And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Neath, Pontardawe, and Brynaman Railway

517
Company for the construction of Railways and the raising of capital: and for other purposes." [Neath, Pontardawe, and Brynaman Railway Bill [Lords.]
Private Legislation Procedure (Wales) Bill. That they give leave to the Lord Balfour of Burleigh to attend to be examined as a Witness before the Select Committee on the Private Legislation Procedure (Wales) Bill.
Chesterfield Gas and Water Board Bill [Lords]; Harrogate Waterworks Tramroad Bill [Lords]; Leeds Corporation (Waterworks) Railway Bill [Lords]; Neath, Pontardawe, and Brynaman Railway Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  BISHOPRICS OF SOUTHWARK AND BIRMINGHAM BILL.
  Petition from Lavender Hill, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION ACT, 1902.
  Petition from Hull, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Dunkeld, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES (RENEWAL.)
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from Baildon; Wardoun; Liverpool; Llandrindod Wells; Moss Side; Llanidloes (four); Upper Parkstone; Oldham; East Yorkshire; Newtownards; Greenwich; Hindley; Lincoln's Inn Fields; Kilburn; Cheshunt; Walthamstow; Nuneaton; Acocks Green; Holborn; Talenfoel; Shaftesbury Avenue; Manchester; Street; Thornley; Leicester; Sileby; Windsor; and Little Dean; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against; from Stourbridge; Leominster (two); West Sleekburn; Bradford and Halifax; Lower Wortley; Morpeth; Lavender Hill; Higher Openshaw; Croydon; Wakefield; Glossop; Halstead; Westerhope; Twickenham;
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  Scotswood; Shiremoor; Woodside (four); Falkirk; Sheffield; Forest Hall; Wensleydale; Market Harborough; Shank-house; Amble; West Cramlington; Carlisle; Chelsea; Elgin; Newcastle; Nenthead; Pegswood; and Bishop Auckland; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, for extension of provisions to Scotland; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (TAXATION AND PURCHASE OF LAND) BILL.
  Petition from Hackney, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  RE-VACCINATION BILL.
  Petitions in favour; from Stockport; and Holborn; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADES UNIONS AND TRADE DISPUTES BILL.
  Petition from the Scottish Trade Protection Society, against; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADES UNIONS AND TRADE DISPUTES (No. 2) BILL.
  Petition from the Scottish Trade Protection Society, against; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  MALTA.
  Copy presented, of Further Correspondence relating to the Political Condition of Malta [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  VICTORIA (THE ELECTORAL DISTRICTS BOUNDARIES ACT, 1903).
  Copy presented, of The Electoral Districts Boundaries Act, 1903 (Victoria) No. 1895 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 159.]
  VICTORIA (THE ELECTORAL PROVINCES BOUNDARIES ACT, 1903).
  Copy presented, of The Electoral Provinces Boundaries Act, 1903 (Victoria) No. 1896 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No 160.]
  FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of Twenty-Second Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland, being for the year 1903. Part I., General Report [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MOTOR CARS (DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the President of the Local Government Board to inquire with regard to regulations for the purposes of Section 12 of The Motor Car Act, 1903. Part I. Report [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MOTOR CARS (DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the President of the Local Government Board to inquire with regard to regulations for the purposes of Section 12 of The Motor Car Act, 1903. Part II. Minutes of Evidence, Appendix, and Index to Evidence [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3151 and 3152 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Temporary Laws. Register of Temporary Laws for the Fifth Session, Twenty-seventh Parliament, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, pursuant to Report of the Select Committee on Expiring Laws in Session 1866; to be printed. [No. 161.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Improved Postal Arrangements at Castletown, Berehaven.
    MR. GILHOOLY: To ask the Postmaster-General whether a steamboat or motor-car is to be used in the proposed arrangements for a better mail service to Castletown, Berehaven; and whether, before making final arrangements, he will elicit the opinions of the
    520
    local public boards as to what would be the most convenient arrangements for the district.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) It has not yet been possible to make arrangements for improving the mail service to Castletown, Berehaven, either by steamboat or motor-car, but the inquiries on the subject are not yet completed. The officers of the Department in the locality are in a position to ascertain the wishes of those concerned, and I do not think that a formal consultation of the local public boards would be useful.

    Moy (County Tyrone) Morning Mail.
    MR. T W. RUSSELL: To ask the Postmaster General under what circumstances the morning mail which formerly left Moy, county Tyrone, at 8 a.m., was discontinued; whether repeated applications have been made to have the service restored; and if he will consider the claim made by the traders of the town, so that business men may be able to communicate with Belfast and Dublin and have letters and parcels on: the same day.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The morning mail from Moy, to which the hon. Member refers, was discontinued seven or eight years ago because the amount of correspondence forwarded by it was too small to justify the expense incurred. Several applications have been received, principally from one resident, for the restoration of the service, but it was not considered that a mail at 8.0. a.m. would be warranted. Further inquiry, however, is now being made with the view of ascertaining whether there has been any recent change in the circumstances, and the result shall be communicated to the hon. Member.

    National Telephone Company's Charges at Tunbridge Wells.
    MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been directed to the fact that, notwithstanding that it is laid down in the licence of the National Telephone Company that they may not charge a rental of more than £6 per annum for exchange facilities in the Tunbridge Wells area, they are demanding from their subscribers a sum of £6 5s. per

    521
    annum, on the ground that the 5s represents the stamp duty; and, if so, will he state whether such action is a contravention of the terms of their licence; and whether the Company have a right to take away a subscriber's instrument if the suscriber has refused to pay the additional 5s.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The National Telephone Company is under no obligation so far as its licence is concerned to limit the charge in the Tunbridge Wells area to £6 per annum. The limits of charge for an unlimited local exchange service are £10 and £5 17s. 6d., and the Company may, under its licence, charge any sum within those limits. The agreement between the Corporation of Tunbridge Wells and the Company for the transfer of the Corporation telephone system did, I understand, contain a provision as to the Company's future charges to subscribers who had joined the Corporation system, but I am not prepared to offer an opinion as to the effect of that agreement in relation to the demand of the National Telephone Company that stamp duty on agreements for an exchange service shall be paid by subscribers.

    Harbours of Refuge—Captain Frederick's Report.
    MR. SOARES: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the Report of Captain Frederick as to the number of lives which might have been saved if there had been a harbour of refuge on the coasts of North Devon or Cornwall.
    (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) It is not usual to publish Departmental memoranda supplied to a Minister, but as the hon. Member desires it, I shall on this occasion be happy to lay upon the Table a note furnished to me by Captain Frederick which bears upon the point referred to in the Question.

    Ley's Charity—Representation of the Parish of Combe Martin.
    MR. SOARES: To ask the hon. Member for Tunbridge, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he can state what rights of representation are possessed by
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    the parish council of Combe Martin, in North Devon, with regard to Ley's Charity, Combe Martin.
    (Answered by Mr. Griffith Boscawen) This is the case of an endowment now in course of determination by the Commissioners under The Board of Education Act, 1899. Hitherto the parish council have not possessed any right of representation, the charity being in the main a public elementary school and therefore excepted under Section 66 of The Local Government Act, 1894, from the provisions for representations given by Section 14. After determination, any question as to the educational portion, which is the bulk of the endowment, will be for the Board of Education to decide; and as to a very small non-educational portion which will remain under the jurisdiction of the Commissioners, consideration has been postponed until after this decision can be given.

    Fees and Salaries of English and Irish Law Officers.
    MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what were the amounts paid in fees and salaries respectively to the English and Irish Law Officers of the Crown during the year ending 31st March last.
    (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The amounts are as follows:—

    Salary.

    Fees.

    £

    £

    s.

    d.

    England:

    Attorney-General

    7,000

    12,921

    7

    9*

    Solicitor-General

    6,000

    7,068

    19

    3†

    Ireland:

    Attorney-General

    5,000

    1,721

    12

    0

    Solicitor-General.

    2,000

    *Inclusive of £4,900 10s. for Alaska Arbitration,, and £2,124 for British Guiana Arbitration.

    †Inclusive of £2,633 3s. 6d. for Alaska Arbitration.

    Reorganisation of the Customs Service.
    MR. ERNEST GRAYTo ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any scheme of reorganisation has been submitted to the Treasury or is under the consideration of the Board of Customs which has for its object the transfer to another branch of the Customs service of some portion of the work of keeping the warehouse accounts now performed by the landing and warehousing staff of the department.
    (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The reply is in the negative.

    Metropolitan Asylums Board and Vivisection.
    DR. SHIPMAN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to recent proceedings of the Metropolitan Asylums Board; and whether he has yet received an application from the Board to register a place for the performance of experiments on living animals under The Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876; and, if so, whether he will give the House an opportunity of discussing the question before public money is diverted to such a purpose.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Alters Douglas.) I have been furnished with a report of the recent proceedings of the Metropolitan Asylums Board in the matter referred to; but I have received no application for registration or for a licence under the Cruelty to Animals Act in connection therewith. If I receive any such application it will be my duty to consider and deal with it in accordance with the ordinary practice in such matters. The registration of premises at a smallpox hospital for the investigation of smallpox by means of experiment would not be an unprecedented step, and I am not aware that hon. Members would need any exceptional facilities for criticising this particular item of my administration.

    Aggregate Annual Values of Licensed Premises.
    MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE: To ask the Secretary of
    524
    State for the Home Department if he can supplement his statement as to licences by giving, for each county and county borough, the aggregate annual values of hotels, other alehouses and beerhouses, respectively, within each area.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I am not sure "that I understand the object which my right hon. friend has in view in asking for figures in this form, but I doubt whether it would be useful to give the aggregate annual values as he suggests. I am, however, ready to consider in what manner and to what extent the statement which I have already laid before the House can, in due course, be supplemented so as to provide hon. Members with all necessary information.

    Registration of Teachers of Music.
    MR. AGG-GARDNER: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will state why the Order in Council, No. 18, dated 21st January, 1902, directing a supplemental register of qualified teachers of music to be formed, has not yet been carried into effect; and when the regulations dealing with this branch of teachers' registration will be issued.
    (Answered by Sir William Anson.) I am not aware of any Order in Council, No. 18, dated 21st January, 1902, directing the formation of supplemental registers of qualified teachers of music, but I presume that the hon. Member refers to the Order in Council, dated 6th March, 1902, directing the formation of a Registration Council. This Order contained in a schedule certain regulations as to the formation of a Register of Teachers. No. 6 of these regulations states that supplemental registers shall be established for various subjects of which music is one. The regulation, however, contained no detailed requirements as to the kind of attainments which were necessary in order to gain admittance to the register. Many very difficult questions are involved, and the whole question is

    525
    receiving the careful consideration of the Board, the Consultative Committee, and the Registration Council. I am unable to state when the Board will be in a position to issue the necessary regulations for the establishment of these registers.

    Construction of Harbour at Avoch, Ross-shire—Government Grant.
    MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state what sum it is proposed to grant in aid of the construction of a harbour at Avoch, Ross-shire.
    (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) I have received no further information on this subject to that given in reply to the Question of the hon. Member on 11th February,† and as no notice of this Question has been given I have not been able to ask for further particulars.

    Head.

    1899–1900 (Net Receipts).

    1904–5 (Estimated).

    Estimated Revenue for 1904–5 + more or -less than Revenue for 1899–1900.

    Paid to Exchequer

    Paid to Local Taxation Accounts.

    Total Revenue

    Payable to Exchequer.

    Assigned for Local Purposes.

    Total Estimated Revenue.

    £

    £

    £

    £

    £

    £

    £

    CUSTOMS.

    Coal exported

    —

    —

    —

    2,000,000

    —

    2,000,000

    + 2,000,000

    Coffee and Chicory

    246,479

    —

    246,479

    245,000

    —

    245,000

    - 1,479

    Currants, Raisins, and Dried Fruits

    424,211

    —

    424,211

    430,000

    —

    430,000

    + 5,789

    Spirits (Foreign and Colonial)

    4,898,930

    234,380

    5,133,310

    4,450,000

    203,400

    4,653,400

    - 479,910

    Sugar

    —

    —

    —

    5,950,000

    —

    5,950,000

    + 5,950,000

    Tea

    4,628,946

    —

    4,628,946

    8,500,000

    —

    8,500,000

    + 3,871,054

    Tobacco and Snuff

    10,885,922

    —

    10,885,922

    13,170,000

    —

    13,170,000

    + 2,284,078

    Wine

    1,729,540

    —

    1,729,540

    1,350,000

    —

    1,350,000

    - 379,540

    Cocoa

    198,997

    —

    198,997

    275,000

    —

    275,000

    + 76,003

    Beer

    18,481

    608

    19,089

    20,000

    600

    20,600

    + 1,511

    Miscellaneous

    11,907

    —

    11,967

    60,000

    —

    60,000

    + 48,033

    Total Customs

    23,043,473

    234,988

    23,278,461

    36,450,000

    204,000

    36,654,000

    + 13,375,539

    EXCISE.

    Beer Duty

    11,887,923

    457,227

    12,345,150

    13,100,000

    437,000

    13,537,000

    + 1,191,850

    Spirit Duty

    19,335,360

    967,787

    20,303,147

    17,700,000

    847,000

    18,547,000

    - 1,756,147

    Total Excise Duty on Beer and Spirits

    31,223,283

    1,425,014

    32,648,297

    30,800,000

    1,284,000

    32,084,000

    - 564,297

    Aggregate Total

    54,266,756

    1,660,002

    55,926,758

    67,250,000

    1,488,000

    68,738,000

    + 12,811,242

    † See (4) Debates, cxxix, 1029.

    Customs and Excise Duties.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the amount of revenue derived from Customs duties under each head, and from Excise duties on beer and spirits, in the financial year 1899–1900, and the estimated amounts for 1904–5; and the duties existing in 1904–5 which have been imposed or increased since 1899–1900, together with the amounts which the additions to taxation are estimated to yield per annum.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I.—Statement showing the amount of Revenue derived from Customs duties under each head, and from Excise duties on Beer and Spirits in the financial year 1899–1900, and the estimated amounts for 1904–5:—
    II.—Statement showing the Duties existing in 1904–5 which have been imposed or increased since 1899–1900, together

    Year in which imposed or increased.

    Estimated yield in 1904–5 of the additions to taxation.

    £

    Coal, etc., Exported—Duty imposed of 1s. per ton.

    1901

    2,000,000

    Spirits—Duty increased 6d. per gallon.

    1900

    1,000,000

    Sugar—Duty imposed of 4s. 2d. per cwt. with varying rates according to polarisation of 2s. to 4s. 2d. per cwt.

    1901

    6,000,000

    Molasses—Duty imposed according to sweetening matter varying from 1s. to 2s. 9d. per cwt.

    Glucose—Duty imposed, liquid 2s. per cwt., solid 2s. 9d. per cwt.

    Tea—Duty increased by 4d. per 1b.

    (2d. in 1900)

    4,000,000

    (2d. in 1904)

    Tobacco—Duty on unmanufactured and manufactured tobacco increased by 4d. per 1b.

    1900

    2,000,000

    Duties adjusted

    1904

    Beer—Duty increased 1s. per barrel

    1900

    1,700,000

    £16,700,000

    Note.—The estimate of the revenue yielded by the additions to taxation is purely hypothetical. It could only be based on a "rule of thumb" computation. That is to say, for example, the total yield of the Excise Duty on beer at 7s. 9d. per barrel in 1904–5 is estimated at £13,100,000; the addition of 1s. per barrel represents twelve ninety-thirds of the entire duty, therefore the yield of that 1s. is computed to be twelve ninety-thirds of £13,100,000, or (in round figures) £1,700,000, It will be observed that the total estimated revenue

    Valuation of Licensed Premises for Estate Duty.
    MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is the practice of the Board of Inland Revenue, in valuing licensed houses for the purposes of the Estate Duty, to assume that the licence will continue to be renewed for an indefinite or for what number of years; and whether it is practicable to lay a Statement of the practice of the Board, in dealing with the various interests connected with the sale of intoxicating liquors similar to Parliamentary Paper, No. 176, of Session 1890.
    with the amounts which the additions to taxation are estimated to yield per annum:—
    of 1904–5 from the Customs and Excise Duties shows an increase in the period compared of a little over £12,800,000; but the yield of the additions to taxation is computed at £16,700,000. The difference is partly due to the fact that the receipts in 1899–1900 were unduly swollen by the special clearances effected in anticipation of increases of duty on account of the war. Another cause of the difference is the falling off of the receipts from some of the consumable articles subjected to duty.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The general rule in valuing licenced houses for the purpose of Estate Duty is (as was the case prior to 1894, and as was shown in Parliamentary Paper, No. 176, of 1890) to assume that the licence will be renewed continuously. But any special circumstances affecting the probability of continuous renewal in a particular case would be taken into consideration. The "Short Statement' presented on Tuesday, read in conjunction with Paper No. 176 of 1890, appears to give as much information as can be afforded in regard to the practice of the Department.

    Government of India and Coolie Labour.
    Sir CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will lay before the House a Return showing in what cases and on what grounds the Government of India has, since the date of the Commission of Inquiry into the coolie system in British Guiana appointed in 1870, forbidden, or, having once allowed, has stopped the export of indentured Indian coolie labour to foreign countries or to British colonies.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The only cases since 1870 in which the export of indentured Indian labour, after having once been allowed, has been stopped by the Government of India have been those of certain foreign colonies, and the cases of refusal by the Government of India to permit emigration have been confined to foreign countries and do not include any British colonies. In view of international susceptibilities it would not be expedient to publish the correspondence showing the grounds on which this action was taken.

    Government Cultivation of Rubber in Burma
    MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India are planting rubber trees in Burmah, and also in other places, on an extensive scale; and, if so, whether, with a view of preventing injury to private enterprise, and having regard to the protests made by companies and individuals interested in rubber plantations, the Government will consider their decision.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Indian Forest Department is engaged in experiments with rubber trees of different kinds in Burma, Assam, and Bengal. The most important experiment is with the Para rubber tree in the Mergui district of Lower Burma. It will be on a sufficient scale to test the commercial value of this species of rubber in Burma. I am not aware that any protests have been made by individals or companies interested in rubber plantations in India,
    530
    and I am not prepared to order the discontinuance of the experiments which, if successful, will be of great benefit to India, and to the large forest estates of the Indian Government.

    Sir John Stewart's Estate, County Tyrone.
    MR. MURNAGHAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that efforts are being made by the tenants on the property of Sir John Stewart, situate at Carrickmore, county Tyrone, to buy out their holdings under the Land Purchase Act, 1903, and that when application for terms was made to the owner he declined to state them, and referred the tenants to the agent of the Gresham Assurance Company for a reply; and, if so, can he state the purport of the reply, the number of years purchase asked, and what progress, if any, in the direction of a sale is being made.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I understand that the tenants on this property are desirous of purchasing their holdings. I have no information, however, on the other matters referred to in the Question. No application has been made to the Estates Commissioners in respect of the sale of the estate.

    Compensation for Injuries by the Police—Case of Mr. W M'Gifford, of Hillsborough.
    MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that Mr. W. M'Gifford, of Hillsborough, county Down, whose aid was invoked by the police during the riot on Sunday. 17th April, at Lisburn, was subsequently accidentally batoned by them, receiving injuries which necessitated immediate surgical attendance; and whether it is proposed to give him adequate compensation.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Mr. M'Gifford, though he was asked to use his influence in preserving the peace, does not appear to have rendered the police any assistance. Indeed, after declining to assist them, he identified himself, at least by his presence, with the section of the crowd from whom the

    531
    most violent and persistent stone-throwing proceeded. Under these circumstances there does not appear to be ground for compensation in respect of an injury to which M'Gifford exposed himself.

    Foreign Spirit Sold as Irish Whisky.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received any communication from the County Wexford United Agricultural Society with reference to the sale of foreign spirit as Irish whisky; and whether the Government proposes to take any steps in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I have received a communication of the nature referred to. The matter is engaging the attention of the Department of Agriculture, which will take such action as may appear to he required in order to protect, as far as possible, the interests of Irish growers of cereals used in the production of genuine Irish whisky.

    Appointment of Dr Kirwan at Ballinasloe Lunatic Asylum.
    MR. ROCHE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the election of Dr. Kirwan to the position of resident medical superintendant of the Ballinasloe Lunatic Asylum has yet been sanctioned; and, if not, what is the reason of the delay.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The appointment has not yet been sanctioned. The Lord-Lieutenant is in correspondence on the subject with the Committee of Management of the Asylum.

    Applications for Reinstatement from Evicted Tenants in County Waterford.
    MR. POWER: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant a Return showing the number of applications for reinstatement received from evicted tenants in the county Waterford by the Estates Commissioners, and also the number of cases in which negotiations for sale or actual sale has taken place.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) One hundred and fifty applications for rein-
    532
    statement have been received on behalf of evicted tenants in the county Waterford. The interim Return of proceedings under the Act of 1903, which will shortly be laid upon the Table, will contain information in respect of the operations of the Act by order of counties.

    Dunmanway Electoral Division.
    MR. EDWARD BARRY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the rural district council of Dunmanway requested the Local Government Board to divide the electoral division of Dunmanway into two electoral divisions; and, if so, will this arrangement be carried into effect.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) No such application has been made to the Board by the district council. A proposal of this character was considered by the council in January last, but no further action was taken in the matter.

    Veterinary Officers—Compulsory Residence in their Districts.
    MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will direct that the veterinary inspectors appointed by local authorities under the Diseases of Animals Acts shall be obliged to reside in their district, as in the case of medical officers.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The orders made under these Acts have not hitherto contained any provision requiring that inspectors shall in all cases reside within their districts. In a large number of instances the inspectors are "existing officers" within the meaning of Section 115 of The Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, and the need for respecting their interests would be a bar to the enforcement of a regulation of the nature suggested. It would, of course, be open to local authorities, when making fresh appointments, to arrange with such inspectors as to their place of residence.

    South Africa—Repatriation of Natives.
    MR. HUNTER CRAIG: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that many thousands of natives, a considerable number of whom had achieved positions as farmers equal or superior to many of

    533
    the poorer class of whites, who were removed (luring the war from the Thaba N'Chu, De Wet's Dorp, and Thaba Pachoa districts of the Orange River Colony, have not been permitted to return; and, if so, will he say whether the prevention of their repatriation has received the sanction of His Majesty's Government; and whether the natives in question, in consideration of services formerly rendered to the late Government of the Orange Free State, held a servitude over the lands formerly occupied by them.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I am informed by Lord Milner that no natives who had a right to be in Thaba N'Chu location have been refused permission to return or remain there, but more than 5,000 natives from other districts who had found their way there for various reasons during the war have been repatriated by the Native Commissioner to their homes in other parts of the colony. As regards De Wet's Dorp and Thaba Pachoa, Lord Milner states that he has no reason to believe that any natives have been prevented from returning, but that he will make further inquiries. Every effort has been made to obtain a judicial decision upon rights of natives in Thaba N'Chu district, but so far without result, though Government was willing to pay expenses. I am promised a full report by mail.

    Wages for Chinese Coolies in Transvaal Mines.
    MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now state what regulation has been made to ensure that the rate of wages paid to Chinese coolies in the Transvaal mines shall be not less than that now paid to natives.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I am not yet able to give the answer to the hon. Member's Question.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Military Drafts for India.
    CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it has been brought to his notice that a number of young soldiers forming part of this year's Indian relief will not be landed in Bombay until late
    534
    in this month, when the hot season has commenced; and if he can say why arrangements were not made to send these young soldiers, going on Indian service for the first time, earlier in the trooping season.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ABNOLD-FOKSTER,): The hon. and gallant Member doubtless refers to the drafts on the "Assaye" which was intended to leave England on the 20th March, a date not considered too late for young soldiers to proceed to India. The delay of a month caused by an accident to the ship was not considered sufficient to justify cancelling the departure of the drafts. It must be remembered that the Commander-in-Chief in India has discretionary powers as to accommodating in the hills any soldiers who are considered unfit for a summer in the plains. The women and children were given the option of going out next winter, an option of which a very few availed themselves.

    Woolwich Arsenal—Payment of Bonuses to Suspended Workmen.
    CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that of the men placed under suspension in Woolwich Arsenal on 7th April last many are entitled to a bonus; and seeing that no hope of re-employment is held out to them, will he see that the bonus due is paid without delay in order that they may go in search of work elsewhere.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The hon and gallant Member is under a misapprehension. Men are not kept under suspension if there is no hope of early employment for them, but are discharged on reduction and are paid any pension or bonus for which they may be qualified. Men selected for discharge on reduction are in the period intervening between such selection and their actual discharge given leave to seek employment elsewhere. Those who succeed in obtaining work are struck off as discharged on reduction, and are accorded all the privileges to which men who leave from such a cause are entitled.
    CAPTAIN NORTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that men who wish to go to Canada or elsewhere to seek employment are paid their bonuses before they go?
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: If the hon. Member can give me particulars of any cases in which injustice has been done I will investigate them.

    Indian Competitive Examinations for the Public Services.
    COLONEL NOLAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can now state to what extent competition has been abolished for entrance to civil State employment in India; if the abolition of competition applies only to natives of India; and if he will state into whose hands will fall the patronage which may arise from the abolition of competition.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): I have not yet received the Paper promised by the Government of India, and am not in a position to add anything to the answer given on my behalf by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the 21st March last to the Question on this subject of the hon. Member for West Denbighshire.†
    COLONEL NOLAN: It is more than a month since I asked for information and the right hon. Gentleman then wanted me to give him time?
    MR. BRODRICK: I very much regret the delay. The information has been promised as soon as possible.

    Licensing Bill—Compensation Provisions.
    MR. CORBETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that much the greater part of the compensation under the Licensing Bill would go to brewery companies, and that a much smaller part would go to actual licencees; and, if so, if he can give the House an estimate of the proportions.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): I am
    † See (4) Debates, cxxxii., 235.
    536
    quite unable to give my hon. friend any such estimate. I think the variety of circumstances and contracts under which licensed premises are held precludes the possibility of doing so. I can only say that even if the result is as my hon. friend prophecies, and appears to dread, it will afford no ground of quarrel with the principle on which this part of the Bill is based, viz., that the compensation shall be distributed between the persons, interested in licensed premises in accordance with the extent of their interests therein.

    The Purchase of Chilian Warships.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the date of the contract to purchase the Chilian warships; what was the date and the amount of the first payment; whether the Treasury had any legal authority for making such payment; and whether he will lay upon the Table a copy of any correspondence on the subject between the Treasury and the Admiralty.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): The date of the contract was 2nd December, 1903. The date of the first payment was 23rd December, and the amount was a sum of £67,000 each to Messrs. Vickers, Sons and Maxim, Ltd., and to Messrs. Armstrong, Whitworth and Co. The matter was decided by the Cabinet, and there was no preliminary correspondence prior to the conclusion of the agreement.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered that part of the Question which asks whether the Treasury had any legal authority for making the first payment.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I have already explained to the House, more than once, the circumstances under which I took upon myself the responsibility of sanctioning this expenditure in anticipation of the Parliamentary approval, which has since been given.

    Unregistered Friendly Societies and Income-Tax.
    MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: I beg to ask Mr.

    537
    Chancellor of the Exchequer under what decision or regulation an unregistered friendly society is debarred from recovering income-tax paid upon a small income, while a registered friendly society is able to do so; and will the reference to the Income-Tax Committee permit of an inquiry into this alleged unfair treatment or the large class of unregistered friendly societies.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The exemptions granted to friendly societies by the Income-Tax Acts are confined to those which are "legally established under any Act of Parliament relating to friendly societies," and are not therefore applicable to unregistered societies. The question is not included within the terms of reference to the Committee.
    MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: Then is an unregistered society an illegal society, not possessing the same right in this matter as a legal society?
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member is now attempting to raise an argument on my answer. I did not say it was not a legal society, but I said the exemptions were confined by the Income-Tax Acts to those which are legally established under any Act of Parliament relating to friendly societies. That is a statutory condition which I see no reason to repeal.
    MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: Cannot the matter be brought within the reference to the Income-Tax Committee?
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I have said it is not included in the terms of the reference.

    North Sea Fisheries.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what sum was expended by the Treasury during the past financial year in connection with the Scottish portion of the work of the International Committee for investigations in the North Sea, and on what Vote the expenditure was placed; did any member of the International Committee receive a salary or remuneration out of this Vote; and, if so, will he quote the amount.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): The amount is £6,732 3s. 6d., subject to such corrections as the audit of the payments for March may require. The money was voted under the head of Scientific Investigation, Subhead P., in the Civil Service Estimates, Class IV. One member of the Council received £300 and his travelling expenses out of this grant.

    Historical Welsh Manuscripts.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what progress has been made by the Royal Historical Commission in their inquiry into manuscripts printed in the Welsh language; and when there will be a further issue of volumes in connection with their investigations.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: The Reports on the Paniarth, Panton and Cwrtmawr collections of manuscripts in the Welsh language are being printed and will probably be issued before the close of the year.

    Welsh Nonconformist Children in Church Schools.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will state the number of children of Nonconformist parents educated in Church schools in Wales by force of circumstances; and if he will give details as to the schools they attend in the various educational areas.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): There is no religious census for Wales, and the Board have no information on this subject; consequently I am unable to furnish the details for which the hon. Member asks.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: Will the hon. Gentleman try and obtain the information?
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: No, Sir, I do not think it is the duty of the Board to inquire into the religious convictions of parents.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but this information can be obtained otherwise.

    National Educational Council.
    MR. GEORGE KENYON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether a draft scheme for a National Educational Council has received the approval of the Board; and, if so, will he state who were the persons consulted by the Board in the settlement of the preliminary scheme; whether it will be laid upon the Table and an early opportunity afforded the House of Commons of discussing it.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: No such scheme has received the approval of the Board of Education. A scheme for a joint education committee for certain purposes of the Act of 1902 has been considered by representatives of local education authorities for Wales and Monmouthshire. The Board understand that this scheme will in due course be submitted for the consideration of those authorities, and, if adopted by them, will be laid before the Board with a view-to publication and subsequent approval. No persons were consulted by the Board: but the Board were glad to give such assistance as lay in their power to certain representatives of Welsh local authorities who approached them with a view to making the necessary preliminary arrangements for a joint committee. The scheme, when framed, will not be laid upon the Table of the House, but will be subject to the procedure set forth in Section 17 of the Education Act, 1902.

    Education (Scotland) Bill.
    MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Education (Scotland) Bill will be taken in Committee of the Whole House or sent to a Grand Committee.
    THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): The Education (Scotland) Bill will be taken in Committee of the Whole House.

    Irish Fishermen's Insurance Scheme.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-
    540
    Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state why the new insurance scheme for fishermen in Ireland has not yet been put into operation, in view of the fact that it has been under consideration by the Congested Districts Board for the past two years; and whether, in view of the fact that the spring fishery season has now opened, efforts will be made to put it into operation without further delay.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The scheme was settled by the Board in March last. It is not practicable to make arrangements for working it in time for the spring mackerel season.

    Cooscroum Landing Place.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the repeated promises to effect improvements at Cooscroum, county Kerry, have not yet been carried into effect by the Congested Districts Board; and whether he can now state on what day work will be commenced there.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Board are providing rollers for the landing place at Cooscroum. They will be forwarded this week.

    Local Government Surcharges in Tipperary.
    MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the solicitor to the Tipperary Urban Council swore at the recent trial in the Court of King's Bench that on the evening after the surcharges were made the auditor assured him that, if a good rate collection was made for the half-year ending in March, the surcharges would not be enforced; and whether, seeing that this was the cause of the Council not moving till the auditor took action in December, and that a good collection has been made, he will have the auditor's assurance now adhered to, and further proceedings stayed.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The solicitor to the district council made a statement in his affidavit to this effect. But the auditor states that the solicitor misapprehended

    541
    the purport of the conversation that passed, and that he gave the Solicitor no such assurance as is alleged. It is not open to the Government to review the decision of the King's Bench Division.
    MR. CULLINANsaid this matter was causing great friction locally, and if the surcharges were attempted to be enforced the Government would want the powers of the Coercion Act.

    Edge Estate, Queen's County.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether negotiations for the sale of the Edge Estate, Queen's County, are proceeding before the Land Commission; and, if so, whether he can state what steps are being taken to restore to his farm or otherwise provide for Thomas M'Cormack, son of John M'Cormack, who was evicted off the property in 1883 for non-payment of rent.
    The hon. Member complained of the striking out of the word "impossible" before "rent" in the last line.
    MR. SPEAKER: The correction is a very proper one to make.
    MR. WYNDHAM: No application has been made to the Estates Commissioners in respect of the sale of this estate. An application for reinstatement has been received on behalf of the evicted tenant named, and will be considered.

    Estates Commissioners' Rules.
    MR. P. A. M'HUGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the rules of the Estates Commissioners under the Land Act of 1903 are not available for the use of Members in the Library; and, if so, can, he make arrangements to have copies of those rules supplied to Members representing Irish constituencies.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The rules in question are provisional rules, and it is not the practice to lay such rules on the Table of the House. They were published in the Dublin Gazette, and are on sale at all law stationers. I shall be pleased, however, to forward a number
    542
    of copies to the Librarian, from whom hon. Members can obtain them. The rules, when they become final, will be presented to Parliament in. accordance with the requirements of the Act.
    MR. FLYNN: Will you also lay copies of the rules framed under former Land Purchase Acts?
    MR. WYNDHAM: If the hon. Member will write to me on the subject I will see what can be done.

    Armagh Workhouse Master's Salary.
    MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds the Armagh Board of Guardians have recently proposed to raise their master's salary from £75 to £100 per annum; what is the pension drawn as ex-head-constable by the present master; and whether the Local Government Board intend to sanction the suggested increase of pay.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The grounds on which the proposed increase is based are the completion of five years' efficient service; economy in the management of the workhouse and consequent saving to the rates; exclusion of tramps; increased duties, etc. The Local Government Board will sanction the increase. The master is in receipt of a pension of £58 a year from the Constabulary.

    Westmeath Quarter Sessions.
    MR. SULLIVAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the county of Westmeath there has been little or no criminal business at some of the late quarter sessions held in that county; and that the County Court Judge presiding at these sessions has been repeatedly presented with, white gloves on the opening of his Court because there was no criminal business to come before him; and, if so, whether, in view of the inconvenience and expense to jurors being brought long distances to attend the quarter sessions Courts, he will give instructions to have the county so scheduled as to notify to the jurors they need not attend on such occasions as are here referred to.
    MR. WYNDHAM: White gloves were presented to the County Court Judge at the January and April quarter sessions. On each occasion the jurors received an intimation that their attendance was not necessary. These appear to be the only Sessions at which white gloves were presented during the past ten years. The question of applying the provisions of the Act of 1897 to the county is under consideration.

    Rockfield Estate, County Kerry
    MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on an estate at Rockfield, Ballymacelligott, county Kerry, have been threatened by the agent with proceedings for the running gale, which has not been hitherto demanded, in consequence of their refusal to agree to the landlord's terms as to sale; if so, will he state whether the Estates Commissioners have any powers to inquire into the methods by which terms are sometimes forced upon tenants; and, if not, will he include provisions giving such powers fully in the present Land Bill, so as to secure equitable bargains in the interests of the State as well as the tenants.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have no information in respect of the first part of the Question. In sanctioning an advance the Estates Commissioners have due regard to all the circumstances of the case.

    Irish Training College Grants.
    MR. WILLIAM McKILLOP: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the probable increase in the number of King's scholars in the training colleges of De La Salle and St. Patrick's under the increased grants now proposed for these institutions.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Applications are before Government for an increase from 150 to 200 in the case of the De la Salle College at Waterford, and from 156 to 200 in the case of Our Lady of Mercy College at Blackrock. No similar application has been received from St. Patrick's College. The annual sum of £5,000 provided in the Development
    544
    Grant Estimate for training colleges under private management will meet the cost of fifty additional male and sixty-nine female King's scholars.

    Dundrum Petty Sessions.
    MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that at the petty sessions for the district of Dundrum, county Tipperary, several cases requiring to be dealt with by two justices have had to be adjourned by the resident magistrate for four months in succession, owing to the absence of a second magistrate; and, if so, whether, considering the inconvenience occasioned to solicitors, litigants, and witnesses through the foregoing circumstances, he will recommend the Lord Chancellor to consider the advisability of appointing suitable local gentlemen to the commission of the peace on their names being submitted to him.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Petty sessions at Dundrum are held once a month. At the February and April sessions only one magistrate was in attendance. I have referred the hon. Member's Question to the Lord Chancellor.

    Bank of Ireland and Government Moneys.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will lay upon the Table of the House the terms of the arrangement now subsisting between His Majesty's Government and the Directors of the Bank of Ireland under which they hold, pass on to the Exchequer, or otherwise deal with Imperial Revenue and other Irish Government moneys.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: As I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Waterford on the 25th April, the revenue receipts paid into the Bank of Ireland are credited to the Exchequer on the day of receipt. The Exchequer Account and other Accounts of public money in Dublin are kept by the Bank of Ireland as current accounts. The only business for which special terms are arranged is the management of the Public Debt. The rates of remuneration now payable to the Bank for that service were fixed by the
    † See (4) Debates, cxxxiii., 1059.

    545
    Bank Act, 1892, and were determined after inquiry by a Departmental Committee into all the relations between the Government and the Bank, special consideration being given to the benefit derived by the Bank from the use of the Government balances. The Act of 1892 prescribes that the rates then fixed shall continue in force till 1912.

    The Unstemmed Tobacco Question.
    MR. McKENNA: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the large and exceptional import of unstemmed tobacco in the month of March in anticipation of the Budget proposals, he will grant a Select Committee to inquire who were the importers; and whether the import has been induced by information that it was intended to make such proposals.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The Prime Minister proposes to answer this Question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will address it to the right hon. Gentleman when he comes into the House.
    MR. McKENNA, in asking the Prime Minister his Question, said he desired to state that, either by the alteration of the Clerk at the Table or by a printer's error, in the fourth line what stood now as a semi-colon should have been a comma. The original Question which he handed in would make that point perfectly clear.
    MR. SPEAKER: It is a printer's error.
    MR. McKENNAwent on to say that consequently the subject of inquiry would be both "who were the importers, and whether the import had been induced by information," etc.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): As far as I am able to judge, the printer's error to which the hon. Gentleman refers, even when supplemented by the comment which he has just given on that error, does not alter the substance of the Question. The Government do not propose to grant the Committee which he asks for. The facts, as I understand them, are these. The hon. Member
    546
    came down with a prepared attack upon the honour of one of the members of the Government.
    MR. McKENNA: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask you whether, if the Prime Minister makes such a statement as that, I shall have any opportunity to reply.
    MR. SPEAKER: I think it would not be in order or in accordance with the Rules governing Questions to enter into a statement having reference to a previous debate. Any explanation of that kind would have to be given at some other time.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURrose amid cries of "Withdraw."
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! If there was anything calling for withdrawal I should have said so.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not sure, Sir, that I understand the full extent to which you desire your ruling to apply. Would you wish me not to refer to any of the incidents which occurred on
    Tuesday last?
    MR. SPEAKER: Yes. I think that to refer, in answer to a Question, to what took place on a previous debate would not be in order. The Question has been answered. I am not prepared to state that it is not possible to say anything more; but to refer to a previous debate would be out of order, as it is necessarily a matter that would involve debate.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: As the right hon. Gentleman has made a distinct accusation against my hon. friend, founded upon: what happened the other day, would it not be desirable that it should be withdrawn as it cannot be further discussed?
    MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman was putting his construction upon what he understood the hon. Member to J have said. I stopped him at the earliest possible moment. I do not think there is anything to withdraw.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Perhaps I may say, in order to the relieve the mind of the right hon. Gentleman, that all I said was that the hon. Member came down with a prepared attack upon the honour of a member of the Government—[Cries of "Withdraw" and "You are repeating it."]
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I must appeal to you, Sir, whether under your ruling that is in order.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not going to add to it.
    MR. SPEAKER: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman desires to enter into nothing more. I understood that all he was doing was, in answer to the objection raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling, to repeat the words he said under the impression that that would satisfy the right hon. Gentleman.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The fact of his having repeated the words rather gives greater emphasis to them. The right hon. Gentleman accused my hon. friend of ha vine come down with a prepared attack upon the honour of a member of the Government. As that, according to your ruling, was an irregular statement to make, in answering a Question, I ask, as my hon. friend cannot reply to it and as no one can discuss it, should the right hon. Gentleman not be called upon to withdraw it?
    MR. SPEAKER: I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman, if he thought he had made any personal attack, would be the first to withdraw it. What I understood was that he was beginning to state his impression of the effect of the hon. Gentleman's speech, On a proper occasion in debate that would have been a construction which he might without breach of order have put upon what he understood to be the hon. Gentleman's accusation. That would not be an irregular expression on a proper occasion in debating what had been said by the hon. Member for Monmouth. What I stopped
    548
    the right hon. Gentleman on was not on the nature of the expression used, but because he was entering into a matter which is really one of debate, and which could not properly be raised at Question time. That is the reason why I did not call upon him to withdraw.
    SIR FORTESCUE FLANNERY: On the point of order arising out of your ruling with regard to the Question of the hon. Member for North Monmouth, I wish to ask whether there is no regulation of this House restraining hon. Members from making, under the guise of Questions, insinuations which they do not support by evidence or even by direct assertion.
    MR. SPEAKER: I have dealt with the whole matter, and I cannot allow it to be again raised.
    MR. McKENNArose amid Ministerial cries of "Order."
    MR. SPEAKER: I would add that, on the face of it, after reading the Question on the Paper, I did not see that it necessarily contained a charge against any particular person.
    MR. McKENNA: May I say a word——[MINISTERIAL cries of "No."]
    MR. SPEAKER: If it is on the point of order I may tell the hon. Member that I have already dealt with it.
    [The incident then closed.]

    Trades Onion and Trades Disputes Bill.
    MR. SHACKLETON: I Deg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, seeing that the House has agreed to the Second Reading of the Trades Union and Trades Disputes Bill, and considering the feeling in the country in favour of the Bill, he will give facilities for its further consideration by this House with a view to its becoming law this session.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Gentleman is probably aware of the answer I have given this session, and in many preceding sessions, when privileges are asked for for private Bills. It would be

    549
    impossible, I believe, to make an exception in favour of one Bill without creating an amount of difficulty and friction which no Leader of the House would willingly be responsible for. And I may add that, as far as I can forecast the course of public business, the Bills for which the Government are responsible are likely to occupy the whole time of the House up to the usual time of our rising.

    Transvaal Labour Ordinance.
    MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the pledge given by His Majesty's Government that in the matter of Asiatic labour the Transvaal shall be treated as though it were a self-governing colony, and in view of the fact that the census recently taken in that colony renders the taking of a vote on the matter possible and easy, he will direct that such vote be taken before permitting any importation of Asiatic labour, in order to decide the question whether there is a majority of the inhabitants of that colony in favour of such importation.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have really nothing to add to the answer given, I think, on 16th February,† by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies. It is quite true that since that date a census has been taken; but the mere fact that a census has been taken will not provide the machinery by which a plebiscite could be obtained, and the Government, in these circumstances, see no reason to depart from the policy already announced.

    The Rand Mines.
    MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the I Secretary of State for the Colonies a; Question of which I have given private notice—namely, whether his attention has been called to the statement as to the ill-treatment of natives on the Rand mines as disclosed in the Blue-book, "Cape of Good Hope, 9.4., 1904" recently presented to the Cape Parliament, and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    † See (4) Debates, cxxix., 1545.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): I communicated with Lord Milner some time ago in regard to the statements made in the Report to which the hon. Member refers, and the Papers which I am laying directly will contain full information as to the action of the Transvaal Native Department in safeguarding the interests of native labourers. Mr. Brownlee's Report in the Cape Parliamentary Papers contains certain criticisms which received immediate attention; but he states that he gathered that on the whole their treatment is good, and that the mine-owners and compound managers are anxious to make the treatment and condition of the native labourers as congenial to them as possible.

ADJOURNMENT.
Major SEELYrose in his place and asked leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz.:—"The cruel and improper treatment of South African Natives employed on the Witwatersrand Mines, as disclosed by the Report of Delegates and Correspondence relating thereto contained in the Blue-book, G. 4,1904, lately presented to both Houses of Parliament at the Cape of Good Hope by command of His Excellency the Governor"; but the pleasure of the House not having been signified,
MR. SPEAKERcalled on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and not less than forty Members having accordingly risen, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, until this Evening's Sitting.

NEW BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To make further provision for Local Government in Scotland; and for other purposes," presented by Mr. Maxwell; supported by Mr. Ure, Mr. Hozier, Dr. Farquharson, Sir Charles Renshaw, and Mr. Dewar; to be read a second time upon Monday, 16th May, and to be printed, [Bill 181.]

  SUPPLY [8TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1904–5.

    CLASS II.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £10,495, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary for Scotland and Subordinate Office, Expenses under The Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900, and Expenses under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, including a Grant in Aid of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Fund."
    MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he desired to draw attention——
    MR. WEIR, on a point of order, said that, on the previous night, he gave notice of his intention to move a reduction of Item A, and it appeared in due course in the Blue Papers that morning, but it was not to be found on the Orders of the Day. He did not know why that was so, but he asked whether he was not entitled to raise his Motion before the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland spoke.
    THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member will have an opportunity of doing so later on, and I will take care that no other hon. Member moves a reduction of any item lower than the one which the hon. Member wishes to discuss.
    MR. WEIR: Why does not my notice appear on the Orders of the Day?
    THE CHAIRMAN: I understand it is a printer's error. The hon. Member will not be injuriously affected thereby.
    MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he wished particularly to refer to the Report of the Secretary for Scotland on the
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    work of the Congested Districts Board. He spoke from his own knowledge of the admirable manner in which that Board had conducted its business in the far North, and he desired to note with cordial approval the fact that the Secretary for Scotland had intimated that he was prepared to consider the question of an extension of the powers of the Board, especially in regard to loans. One of their principal troubles in the North was in connection with the herring fleets, which went out to sea and were often becalmed and unable to get back with their catches. Now, it was desirable to provide the fleets with some means of transport, and if money could be advanced to enable the provision of motor power, it would be an enormous advantage. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would take that matter into his consideration. He also hoped that steps would be taken to establish a training ship off that part of the coast of Scotland. He was quite prepared to oppose any unfair criticism in regard to the work of the Board, because most admirable work had been done, particularly in Orkney and Shetland, in providing piers, and in carrying out other undertakings of which the people could not otherwise have had the advantage. He could not agree with the hon. Member for East Lanarkshire that the Congested Districts Board should confine its operations to buying land. That was only a small part of its work. Its main object should be to make the lives of the people pleasant and comfortable, and to encourage trade and commerce. The Board had also done good work in the direction of supplying poor districts with seed, and he wished to take that opportunity of tendering his personal thanks to the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessor for having rather strained the letter of the law in supplying a very poor district with seed at a time when it was in great need of it. There were many other ways in which the Board had assisted the poorer districts in the North of Scotland, and, speaking for Members representing congested districts in the North, he would say that the last thing they would like would be to take advantage of the liberality, industry, and intelligence which the Board had brought to bear upon Scottish affairs. They would not

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    encourage any attempt to get at the Board, or to obtain money from it on unfair pretences.
    He did not wish to unduly occupy the time of the Committee, but there was one matter of somewhat personal significance to which he must refer. A considerable number of years ago there was a road very much wanted in a certain district in Orkney. At that time an election was proceeding and the proprietor of that part of the island informed the people that if they would vote for a certain individual (for his humble self in fact) he would do his utmost to facilitate the construction of the road. Well he (the speaker) had the good fortune to be returned to that House, partly by the votes of those people, but nothing whatever was done to construct the road, although he himself did his best by pointing out the necessity for it to the Congested Districts Board. The people in the constituency naturally observed, "It's all right for you, you are in Parliament, but we have not got our road." Later the matter cropped up in the Orkney County Council, and then there was the mysterious disappearance of a certain letter addressed to the Congested Districts Board. Time went on and another election occurred in that particular district. Again the proprietor of that small village gave a pledge to the people that if they would vote in a certain direction (this time against himself instead of for him) they would get the road. Well, he was elected, and still no road had been made, with the result that the residents of this little hamlet, numbering probably eighty or ninety souls, were absolutely cut off from the rest of the world and could only get supplies or send away the products of their industry by carrying them on their backs. He was not blaming the Congested Districts Board for this, but he did think that the people had been very badly treated, and he hoped the Board would do its utmost to enforce the completion of a bargain which was distinctly entered into between the proprietor of the district and the public. A great injustice had been undoubtedly done, and for purely selfish and unjust reasons the Congested Districts Board had been utilised and its name bandied about in a most offensive manner in connection
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    with the matter, while the people had not got the road, and it did not seem as if they were likely to get it. Public feeling had been so aroused that the Congested Districts Board had sent an officer to report upon some other road which had been brought to public notice for the first time. He had felt it his duty to bring before the notice of the Board the undesirability of sending down an officer who was, and had been, a partisan of the landlord and the proprietor of the island. He hoped the representations he had made would have due effect, and that the right hon. Gentleman would secure an independent report from the island.
    Another matter to which he desired to call attention had reference to a process carried out by certain Norwegians who had been driven from their own country by Act of Parliament and the pressure of public opinion. These men had come down and settled in Shetland. Their practice was to send out a boat, armed with an enormous harpoon, and then, when they captured a whale, to drag it into the shore, cut off two or three inches of blubber, tow the carcase out to sea, and leave it. The result was that the bodies floated back to the shore, and there remained. Not only did the carcases pollute the atmosphere, but they had destroyed the mussel-beds, and reduced the poor fishing folk to the verge of despair. A gentleman had been sent down to report on the matter, and doubtless his report would carry due weight. He had no desire to criticise that report; what he wished to refer to was a letter sent by this official to one of the promoters of this process, in which the promoter was assured that he would doubtless have to face a certain amount of jealous and ignorant opposition, but that he had no reason to fear opposition at headquarters. This was a most improper remark for a gentleman to make who had been sent to report. He did not mind what was said about himself, but he deeply resented any reflection on his constituents, and it was a most improper action on the part of this official to attempt to prejudge the case as he had done in the letter referred to. The process was not of the slightest advantage

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    to the country, and it was probably destroying the balance of power in nature. He remembered that years ago there was an agitation for the destruction of certain vermin, and the result was a frightful plague of mice which ruined many farmers. Something of the same sort must happen in this instance. In any case it was a serious matter, and ought to be impartially dealt with.
    There was one other matter he wished to mention. In the time of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, the proprietor of a certain island entered into an arrangement with the Woods and Forests Department, who had jurisdiction over certain fishing, and an agreement for sale or lease was prepared. In that lease it was distinctly stated that the right of the public to fish should be arranged for by regulations approved by the Secretary for Scotland. The noble Lord who then occupied that office gave an assurance that before the regulations were finally settled the inhabitants should have an opportunity of perusing them, and making any comments they thought necessary. The people had enjoyed the privilege of the foreshore fishing from time immemorial, and all they asked was that the privilege should not be taken away simply to enable a certain individual to turn his property into a huge sporting estate. The promise to which he had referred was given three years ago, but no regulations had yet appeared. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would use every endeavour to see that that pledge was carried out.
    DR. FARQUHABSONsaid that although his constituency was on the fringe of the Highlands, he joined with his hon. friend in deprecating any attack upon the emoluments of the Secretary for Scotland who had helped the Congested Districts Board to do admirable work in developing the resources of the Highlands. In previous years the complaint had been that this Board never spent all the money at its disposal, but it had now spent all its money and had incurred various liabilities, which would probably prevent it currying on effectively its system of land purchase. He hardly thought there was any necessity for bringing compulsion to bear upon landlords in the Highlands,
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    because as a rule they were only too willing to sell their land and get rid of the great expense of maintaining it. If the representatives of the Congested Districts Board would come up to Aberdeenshire and cast a friendly eye on some property he had there, he would give them a most friendly reception, and they might negotiate for the purchase of some land there which he had considerable difficulty with at the present moment. In Aberdeenshire they had not much land which was suitable pasture for cattle or sheep, but they were an enterprising patient people who were fully entitled to some recognition from the State. The crofters deserved all they got, for they had suffered for a long period, and had not been well treated in the past, but under the Crofters Act they had developed themselves in a most extraordinary way. They had become, according to one report, "entirely new men," and their condition was quite as good as the Irish peasant who had bought his own land. It had been shown that when these crofters got the opportunity they ceased to be lazy, and they could not expect a man to be industrious if he had nothing to be industrious upon. In the North of Scotland they were looking with envious eyes upon what was being done in the Highlands for the people there. That improvement had been brought about by the agitation of hon. Members representing the Highlands. No great reform had ever been accomplished without continual pressure upon Parliament by bringing before the House and the Minister responsible the grievances of the constituencies. This had been done in a continuous and persistent way by hon. Members representing the Highlands, and he admired their action. He was glad to notice that the Bill which had been introduced by the Secretary for Scotland gave larger powers to the Congested Districts Board. They wanted powers to deal with technical education and to go in for agricultural education and better sanitation.
    THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Member is not entitled to discuss Bills on this Vote, and legislation cannot be debated now.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid the great difficulty was to make people realise that

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    the great aim of the Congested Districts Board was not to give them assistance for a time, but to teach them how they could best help themselves. He thought Lady Gordon Cathcart was entitled to have brought before the notice of the House the excellent work she had done in trying to develop the resources of the Highlands. She had written a letter which anticipated the action of the Congested Districts Board, she had placed on record the good work she had done, and she complained of the want of sympathy shown by those she was trying to aid. He thought she was a little disappointed that her excellent work had not been more successful in developing the resources of the Highlands, and she laid stress upon some very important points. To begin with, she had done some excellent work in trying to develop fishing in those parts. Those poor people could not live by agricultural land alone, and it was impossible to live on a farm of less than thirty acres and keep a family; the only chance they had of obtaining a livelihood was by doing a little farming and something else. All he was anxious about was that Lady Gordon Cathcart should have full credit for what she had done. She had established harbours, built boats and hotels, and brought forward many good propositions. He thought the men in these districts should be enabled to do one of two things. They should either become small farmers with thirty, forty, or fifty acres to cultivate and live upon, or they should become crofters who, in addition to having a portion of land to cultivate, should be able to carry on the occupation of fishing. What was of importance was that a little money should be given to provide good centres from which they could carry on the fishing industry with some probability that they would do so with advantage. Lady Gordon Cathcart had laid down conditions that boys at the public schools were to be taught trades, and that the girls wore to be taught domestic economy—cooking and a variety of subjects which would make them good housewives. Finally, it was a portion of the scheme that the surplus population should be settled on land more suitable for cultivation and in districts where employment could be found.
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    There had been a good deal of talk lately about the physical condition of school children of the poorer classes, and the desirability of providing food for them. He asked the Secretary for Scotland whether it came within the purview of the new arrangement to be made under the Scotch Education Bill to provide meals once or twice a day for children who required food in order to fit them for the performance of their school work.
    THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,)was understood to say that the Question was not in order in connection with the Vote now before the Committee.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid he would not pursue the question farther. He found that he was treading on delicate ground.
    MR. WEIRsaid he had the fullest sympathy with the people of the township referred to by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. The hon. Member's constituents appeared to be suffering from dead whales. The constituency he himself represented suffered from live deer. He could only hope that steps would be taken to remedy the grievance his hon. friend complained of. What did the hon. Member know about Ross and Cromarty? His constituents sent him to Parliament because they had confidence in him, and in attending to their interests he did not proceed by agitation as the bon. Member for Aberdeenshire had suggested. It might be better if he could agitate, but he was afraid he was weak in that respect. His hon. friend said that no compulsion was necessary in regard to the acquisition of land for the people. He would deal with that question at a later stage. His hon. friend had spoken in high terms of Lady Gordon Cathcart. If she possessed all the good qualities with which the hon. Member credited her, he wished there were half-a-dozen ladies of her sort in certain congested parts of the counties he represented. He moved that Item A be reduced by £100. The Vote included salaries from that of the Secretary for Scotland down to that of the humblest

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    charwoman. He admired the Secretary for Scotland for having thrown up a post worth £5,000 to take one at £2,000. Of course the right hon. Gentleman had the honour and glory of being Secretary for Scotland. That was something, and to a rich man what was the loss of £3,000 a year? If he had his way, the Secretary for Scotland would have £5,000 still. There was plenty of work in Scotland for him.
    He had a bone, however, to pick with the right hon. Gentleman, in fact more than one. Some time ago he asked for a Deer Forest Return, and the right hon. Gentleman stated that it would be somewhat troublesome to prepare, or that he did not see any occasion for such a Return. He saw very great occasion for such a Return. The predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to grant a Return a few years ago. It was the most inaccurate document he ever held in his hand. He called the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to the fact that it was inaccurate. It was referred to Mr. Dundas, the Crown Agent, in Edinburgh. The errors were pointed out to that gentleman who, he supposed, was instructed to prepare another Return. That Return was duly prepared by Mr. Dundas. He was a lawyer and it might be expected that he would be careful and accurate. The previous Return was bad, but this one was no better. It was a grossly inaccurate document. It was because of these gross inaccuracies that he asked the right hon. Gentleman to arrange for another Return. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to give a pledge to-day that he would grant a Return of the deer forest acreage. If the right hon. Gentleman did not accede to that request he would find it necessary to divide the Committee on the Question, much as he disliked causing Members to trot through the Lobbies. The extension of the deer forest area was simply alarming. When he brought the fact before the First Lord of the Treasury some time ago, the right hon. Gentleman replied that he had no official information as to the state of matters. What more information did he need? The representatives of Highland constituencies were informed from time to time that large grazing farms were
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    being added to the deer forest area. In 1883 the deer forest area was 1,711,802 acres, and in 1898 it had increased to 2,287,296 acres. That was an increase of 33 per cent, in fifteen years. Reference had been made to the document prepared by Lord Balfour of Burleigh, entitled, "The Social Condition of the Island of Lewis." He would always feel grateful to the noble Lord for visiting the island and giving that most valuable report. What the Committee should realise was that even in the Island of Lewis the Deer Forest Commission scheduled fifteen places suitable for new holdings, consisting of.1 1,618 acres old arable and 34,516 acres pasture, and for the extension of holding 665 acres old arable and 65,025 acres pasture.
    THE CHAIRMAN: I do not see how this matter can arise on this Vote.
    MR. WEIRsaid he knew the Secretary for Scotland had power to grant a Return as to the acreage under deer forests.
    THE CHAIRMAN: As long as the hon. Gentleman sticks to that point he is in order, but not otherwise.
    MR. WEIRsaid that there was a greater need now than ever for an accurate Return of the area of the Highlands under deer. The last Return was grossly inaccurate. He would suggest also that if the right hon. Gentleman made up his mind to grant that Return he should employ competent men, not lawyers who knew absolutely nothing about the matter, to prepare it. What a farce it was to ask landlords and their factors to supply that information. The right hon. Gentleman ought to employ competent assessors to go round and find out the actual acreage under deer forests. Another matter to which he wished to draw attention came partly under the Board of Trade and partly under the Scotch Office. Some time ago the head of the Scotch Office informed him that in consequence of the heavy charges which were made for conveying fish and agricultural produce from the Highlands to the great centres of population, he would use his influence with the railway companies to try and bring about a better state of things. He was sure that the right hon. Gentleman must desire to increase trade in the Highlands and enable the people to get their produce

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    to market. Had he made any effort in that direction? The railway companies made some concession to the steamship company which ran vessels between Stornoway and Mallaig; but that was not enough, and indeed the charges had been increased to the senders of fish and agricultural produce, the result being disastrous to traders. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would try and secure lower transit rates for the produce of these northern parts to the great centres of population. Then there was the question of the Moray Forth. Would not the Secretary for Scotland approach the Foreign Office with a view to get the signatories of the North Sea Fisheries Convention——
    THE CHAIRMAN: That matter does not arise on this Vote. If the hon. Member will look at Class IV., Vote 6, Item F, he will see that there is a Vote for the North Sea Investigation.
    MR. WEIRsaid that that was a scientific investigation, which was a totally different thing. It referred to the Hydrographical Conference which, amongst other things, dealt with the temperature of the water off the coasts of Scotland, Norway, and elsewhere. But the right hon. Gentleman had the power to go to the Foreign Office, and endeavour to bring about some arrangement with Foreign Governments to get rid of the marauding foreign trawlers in the Moray Firth.
    THE CHAIRMAN: That cannot be raised on this Vote. If there is any question of an arrangement with Foreign Powers it must be raised on the Foreign Office Vote.
    MR. WEIRsaid that surely the Scottish Office had the power to bring under the notice of the Foreign Office some means of getting rid of the foreign trawlers in the Moray Firth. At any rate, he asked the right hon. Gentleman to do something in the matter. It lay with the Scottish Office to take the initiative. He now came to the question of the consulting engineer to the Scottish Office whose salary was on this Vote. That gentleman was a retired Army officer with an Army pension of
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    £450 a year and his full salary was subject to a reduction of 10 per cent, in that respect. He had been now a great many years consulting engineer to the Scottish Office and should retire at the age of sixty-five. Colonel Gore-Booth must surely have passed the retiring age or must be nearing it. The other night a Member of the House said that Colonel Gore-Booth was an extremely amiable and pleasant gentleman; but that was not enough. What was wanted was efficiency. He contended that the gentleman had not done his work satisfactorily. There was the question of the road between Gravir and Cromore in the Island of Lewis. The local surveyor, who knew every inch of the ground, sketched out a plan for an economical road. Colonel Gore-Booth, or his deputy, came down and inspected the district, and said there must be a road according to his plan, with the result that the road would cost a large additional sum of money. The people of the neighbourhood were told that they must provide that extra money. The Secretary for Scotland knew that that was one of the poorest districts in the Island of Lewis and that it was utterly impossible for the people to provide the money. They offered to give so much labour free to make the load. Colonel Gore-Booth would not budge. This case was most unsatisfactory. Several thousands of the population had had to pay road rates for years and had not a single inch of road. He only wished the right hon. Gentleman would follow the example of Lord Balfour of Burleigh. The summer days were coming on, and the right hon. Gentleman would enjoy a run down to the interesting island of Lewis, where he could see for himself the state of affairs. The right hon. Gentleman would learn far more by one hour's inspection on the spot than in twenty years from the reports of gentlemen who sat in their arm-chairs in Edinburgh. Some heed should be given to the opinion of local men. He asked the right hon. Gentleman again to submit this matter to Colonel Gore-Booth. He found that a sum of 100 guineas was paid to Colonel Gore-Booth as travelling expenses. He himself drove through his constituency in a carriage and

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    pair, but it did not cost him anything approaching that amount. He hoped the Secretary for Scotland would look into the various matters he had mentioned, and that a Return of an adequate character with reference to deer forests in Scotland would be prepared.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A (Salaries) be reduced by £100."'—(Mr. War.)
    MR. ASHERsaid he wished to refer to the practice which had recently been established of capturing whales off the coasts of Orkney and Shetland. The matter was certainly very peculiar, and its history very instructive. The practice of hunting whales off the coast of Norway was found to be highly destructive to ordinary fishing, and the consequence was that the Norwegian Government passed an Act prohibiting its subjects from capturing whales during the fishing season. The result was that the Norwegian fishermen migrated to Orkney and Shetland and pursued their calling there; and precisely the same mischief that was caused off the coast of Norway was now being caused oft the coasts of Orkney and Shetland. His hon. friend for Orkney and Shetland referred to the matter chiefly from the point of view of the nuisance which was caused on the coast after the blubber had been removed from the whales. His point was that the fishermen from the East coast of Scotland who migrated to Orkney and Shetland for the herring season found the practice to he most destructive. It was quite impossible for whale hunting and herring fishing to be carried on simultaneously in the same waters. He had been the medium of transmitting to the Secretary for Scotland a petition signed by about 500 of the chief fishermen and fish curers on the East coast of Scotland, asking for the right hon. Gentleman's intervention; and he desired to express his acknowledgment of the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman in immediately taking the matter in hand. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman was making inquiries on the subject; and he would be indebted to him if he would state what progress had been made and what the prospects

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    were. He would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to take two steps. The persons who were prosecuting whale hunting found it necessary to have stations on shore, and they had applied to the Board of Trade for permission to erect them. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to get his Department to intervene and to exercise the power which they no doubt possessed to prevent that permission being granted until the matter had been fully investigated. He did not ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept the statements in the petition with regard to the extremely injurious effect of whale fishing; but he hoped the matter would be kept open until it was thoroughly investigated. No doubt whale fishing was important to the persons engaged in it: but it could not be compared in importance with the great herring and white fishing industries off the coast of Orkney and Shetland. If the right hon. Gentleman intervened the result would be that the applications for permission to erect stations would be suspended; and his conviction was that if they were suspended until a proper inquiry was held they would ultimately be refused altogether. He would further suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that having regard to the great importance of the matter he should appoint a Departmental. Committee for the purpose of ascertaining whether whale hunting was not absolutely inconsistent with the successful prosecution of the herring and white fishing industries off the coast of Orkney and Shetland. That Commission might consist of a representative of the Scottish Office, a representative of the Hoard of Trade, and probably a member of the Local Government Board or the Scottish Fishery Board. If they were sent down as a special Commission to investigate the matter on the spot they would get accurate information, and the Scottish Office would then he in a position to deal with the matter in an authoritative manner. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman it was a very important matter; and that a prima facie case existed in favour of the facts set forth in the petition. The Scottish fishermen were satisfied that their, interests were being interferred with and the result was that they were actively agitating in. support of the steps he had mentioned.
    CAPTAIN ELLICEsaid ho wished to associate himself with what his hon. friend had just said on the subject of whale hunting. He understood from the fishermen on the East coast of Fife that this question of whale fishing very seriously affected their interests, while they were away at the summer herring fishing in the Shetlands. He knew that some of the fishermen from his own constituency had been poisoned by the masses of putrid blubber floating about in the harbours there. One point had not been mentioned as yet in the debate, namely, that the whales, in some instances, acted as sheep dogs do in herding sheep, and kept the herrings close shoaled. The fishermen were able to locate the herrings, and the catch was improved.
    MR. HARMSWORTHdesired in as few words as possible to support his hon. friend. It was in his opinion a matter of national importance that there should be a bona fide statement showing the growth of the deer forest acreage in the North of Scotland. He himself believed that the deplorable state of the Highlands of Scotland was mainly due to so much of the country being given over to deer forests. He also entirely agreed with all that had been said with regard to the effect of whaling upon the herring fisheries, and he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to refuse permission for the establishment of the stations in the Shetlands.
    MR. UREcalled attention to the want of accommodation in the Courts of Scotland. There had been a good deal of delay in the Scottish Office in the matter of enlarging the Courts, a question which had been before the country for a century. The Scottish Office obtained plans of the proposed enlargements as far back as 1881, but since that date nothing whatever had been done. The ground which was to be used for the purpose was still vacant but nothing had been done by the right hon. Gentleman or his predecessors to secure the funds necessary for the work. It was not so much the Judges or barristers practising in the Courts who were inconvenienced but the litigants and the
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    general public. There was no complaint as to the condition of the Appeal Courts and those Courts where criminal eases were tried, but the condition of the Courts where the ordinary business of the country was conducted, the Courts of First Instance, was deplorable. The accommodation for the Bar was limited as was also that of the official reporters, while the accommodation for the general public, solicitors, litigants, and others was cribbed, cabined, and confined to a degree not creditable to Scotland as a progressive country. Since 1868 a great change had come over the administration of justice in Scotland, and many more people frequented the Courts than formerly. They suffered considerably from the want of suitable accommodation for witnesses, and very often there was extreme difficulty in finding a witness although no complaint could be made of the attempts of the attendants to find them. All these things urgently called for reform, and all that was required was money.
    THE CHAIRMANpointed out that the subject the hon. Gentleman appeared to be raising was that of buildings and that would not be in order on this Vote.
    MR. MACONOCHIEsaid, with reference to the complaint which had been made as to the whales off the coast of Scotland, the advantage of these whales to Norway was that they drove the shoals of herrings into the fiords and enabled the Norwegian fishermen to secure their catches at the lowest cost. Scottish fishermen would like to see these whales destroyed because they did harm to the shoals in the open sea by driving them about and separating the fish and preventing Scottish fishermen getting decent catches. The fishermen on the East coast of Scotland complained that after the Norwegians had filched all the blubber from a whale they towed the carcase out to sea, and left it—a danger to the nets and boats of all those who fished those waters. There was no doubt that the district referred to by the hon. Member for Ross-shire was a poor one, and the hon. Member in pressing his case would have strengthened his argument if he had given a few descriptions of what

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    existed in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. But the only way to improve these parts would be to offer some practical suggestion either with regard to the fleet or the improvement of the fishermen.
    MR. AINSWORTHsaid there were special reasons why the information in the suggested Deer-forest Return should be up-to-date. Sheep valuations had recently brought about a great extension of deer forests, and the same question was having a damaging effect, not only on agriculture, but also on population. He knew a case in which a few months ago several thousands of acres of land, eminently suited for sheep but unsuited for deer, were put under deer owing to the difficulty caused by this question of valuation. The matter being so important, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give all the information at his disposal, and if possible lot the Return include not only the acreage under deer, but also the annual value as sheep-farm and deer-forest. Another matter in which the Highlands were deeply interested was the carriage of fish. In view of the fact that some of the railways were assisted by Government money advanced at low rates of interest, he thought the authorities were entitled to see that the public were granted the most favourable rates possible.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he had no control whatever over the question of railway rates That was a matter with which the Board of Trade had to deal. The question of whales was interesting from a natural history point of view, and it was also novel. He would not discuss whether it was an industry or a process, but it was certainly something in which a considerable amount of capital was involved. Quite recently plant to the value of £6,000 or £8,000 had been landed, and a pier applied for. Such an application would obviously not be made unless the promoters were confident they could secure a good return from the craft. The particular kind of whale concerned was new as an article of pursuit, as it was not the small whole that had often been caught by the
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    inhabitants of the hon. Member's constituency. He was fully aware of the apprehension which had been aroused and of the inconvenience caused by the manner in which the craft, was prosecuted, and from the point of view of what could legally be done the matter could be looked at in three aspects. First, there was the question of public health as affected by these carcases being left off the shore in a more or less disagreeable condition; secondly, there was the fisheries question; and thirdly, there was the question of how far the Board of Trade should veto the carrying on of the industry by refusing the use of the foreshore and preventing the construction of the proposed pier. As far as the public health was concerned, the business as carried on was an intolerable nuisance, and steps had been taken to bring that to an end by placing the process in the category of offensive trades and instructing the local medical officers to enforce the law. As a matter of fact, the companies had expressed their preparedness to erect plant which would consume the whole carcase, and that, if done, would get over the public health objection. As far as the Board of Trade were concerned, all that could be doen was to ask them to hold their hand until a little more was known about the subject, and whatever influence he had would be used in that, direction. There remained then the fishing aspect of the question. The fact that when they began to deal with the habits of fish they went beyond the limits of exact knowledge was well illustrated by the divergent views expressed by the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire and the hon. Member for St. Andrews, one of whom contended that the whale acted as a sort of pursuer, scattering the fish right and left, while the other held that the whale fulfilled the part of a sheep-dog, driving the fish into a compact body and enabling the fishermen to get a full catch. Both of those views were interesting, but they could not both be correct. The question was complicated by the consideration that the Government could not prevent Norwegian subjects killing whales in any way they chose so long as they did it beyond the territorial limit. Probably the only method would be by indirect compulsion. Beyond all doubt

    569
    a very real interest was taken in the matter in Scotland, and it was only right that the people should be satisfied as far as possible. He was, therefore, prepared to assent to the suggestion that an inquiry should be instituted. Without pledging himself as to the exact form of the inquiry, he would undertake to have an investigation made, so that they might, as far as possible, see how the matter stood, and he would be prepared to act upon the results of that inquiry, if necessary.
    He did not intend to go into the question of deer forests at length. The contention that the deplorable state of the Highlands was mainly due to the deer forests was an utterly unsound proposition which could never stand the test of actual inquiry. He agreed, however, that the unfortunate practice which had grown up in connection with sheep valuation had much to do with the change from sheep farms to doer forest. There appeared to be a little misapprehension about the Return. A Return was granted from year to year with regard to deer forests, of which the hon. Member for Ross-shire complained as being inaccurate. Nobody contended that it was precisely accurate in regard to acreage. The only way in which the Return could be prepared was by taking such information as the assessors could give, and the assessors derived their knowledge from the factors who sent in returns. The hon. Member had pressed for an absolutely accurate Return. An actual survey would be necessary for such a purpose, and the expense would be altogether incommensurate with the value of the Return. He was perfectly willing to give the old Return based upon the best class of evidence one could get through the assessors, but he was not agreeable to grant a Return under which he would be bound to give an acreage column guaranteed to be absolutely correct. He did not know whether that would satisfy the hon. Member for Ross-shire, or whether lie would insist upon going to a division. The idea of having an accurate survey laying down the exact acreage under deer forests could not be justified.
    MR. WEIRsaid it was all very well for hon. Members who had no deer forests in
    570
    their constituencies to shout out "Hear, hear." Let the deer live and flourish, but they ought to be sent up to their proper place on the hills, and they should not be allowed to live upon land which might be otherwise occupied by human beings. There was plenty of room for the deer, but what he objected to was that human beings should be cleared out and fertile land set aside for deer forests which had been scheduled as suitable for the people and yet was not devoted to the purpose. The result was that the country had to suffer. The right hon. Gentleman said there was only a small amount of suitable land, but he would remind him that there were tens of thousands of acres in his own constituency.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I did not say anything about there being only a small amount of land available. What I said was that as far as the employment of the people is concerned there are more people employed on the land under deer forests than when the land is devoted to sheep farming.
    MR. WEIRsaid that the right hon. Gentleman could get the survey asked for from the Board of Agriculture, who had all the information if the right hon. Gentleman would only take the trouble to secure it. The Secretary for Scotland had stated that he was willing to grant the Return, but not on the lines he had asked for. They never could get all they wanted at once and they had to go stage by stage. He was willing to accept the Return as promised, but if it turned out to be inaccurate, as it was last time, he should continue to try and get an accurate Return of the deer forest acreage. On those conditions he would accept the Return and leave himself free if necessary to renew his efforts to obtain an accurate Return. He begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Question again proposed.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONcongratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the value of the first Report issued under his auspices by the Congested Districts Board. The work

    571
    of the Board Lad very often been complained of in the past, and its efforts had been very disappointing. Scotch Members had often contended that the work of the Congested Districts Board would not be effective until it was given compulsory powers. It would be noticed in the Report that the Board itself asked for additional powers. He had always attached great importance to the work of the Congested Districts Board in dealing with land, and he was glad to see that during the past year it had for the first time been able to acquire land upon a considerable scale. The hon. Member for Shetland had praised the work of the Board in other respects and the Board could now supply everything, including lights, roads, landing-places, fences, telegraphs, seed potatoes, stallions, bees, hens, and cocks. The land question was not the same in the North as in the West of Scotland, and he would like to ask the right lion. Gentleman to consider whether it would not be possible to combine the powers of the Congested Districts Board and the Crofters Commission with respect to the management of the land. He thought if that were done it would be a much more efficient authority. The work of the Congested Districts Board with respect to the purchase and utilisation of land had been much criticised in the past. The Crofters Commission had had to deal with much greater difficulties and they had met with a success which nobody disputed. The Crofters Act was based upon a foundation which might be a little difficult to justify in law. However much one might be inclined to doubt it as a permanent arrangement, it had been a great success in the Highlands, and the Crofters Commission had done its work in a manner which had commanded the confidence of everybody, whether landlord or tenant. He should, therefore, like to see the work of the Congested Districts Board as regards land put under the Crofters Commission. So long as these two bodies were working separately the work not only overlapped to some extent, but it overlapped with a considerable number of other bodies who controlled the matters he had just enumerated. If they gave to the Crofters Commission the power possessed by the Congested Districts Board
    572
    for acquiring land they would have a body which would meet any difficulties that might arise in future as to land in the Highlands with the greatest possible effect. It would be extremely desirable to have the administration put as soon as possible on a permanent footing. Another reason why it would be desirable to have one authority was that small holdings could only succeed when they were worked co-operatively in sending to market. Small holders could not compete with large ones unless they adopted the co-operative system. It would be more easy for one authority to effectively grapple with co-operation than was possible under a dual arrangement. The success of this system under the Irish Congested Districts Board had been so marked that it was hoped much greater prosperity might be brought to small holders in the Highlands by more efficient provision for co-operation than existed at present. He asked the Secretary for Scotland to consider whether, if he could not have one land authority in the Highlands, he could not have a clear definition of the functions and spheres of such bodies as the Crofters Commission, the Congested Districts Board, and the other local authorities concerned? He was satisfied that there were portions of deer forests which might be made available for occupation and it was for that reason that lie thought compulsory powers were most required.
    MR. JOHN DEWARsaid he was afraid that Highland questions were treated rather lightly in this House. He could assure the Committee that there was a great deal of congestion, poverty, and distress in many parts of the Highlands and it was because he did not believe that the Congested Districts Board was properly doing the work it was created to do that he asked the Committee to reduce the amount of this Vote by £100. The Report presented the other day had a strong family resemblance to previous Reports. There was not very much new, and very little had been done in respect of most of the objects for which the Board was created. He heartily congratulated the Secretary for Scotland on the large purchase of land that had been made in Skye, at a

    573
    cost of £95,000. He did not think the Board could have discovered any land better suited for an experiment in regard to the settlement of crofters. He hoped they would select as manager of this new venture a man who was in sympathy with the crofter movement, and that the crofts would be of sufficient size to employ a man and his family and give them a decent living. He supported the suggestion of the hon. Member for the Leith Burghs that the co-operative movement among the crofters should be encouraged. The Board seemed to take the view that before they purchased laud they must accumulate the money necessary to pay for it. He desired to point out that they had power to borrow on the value of the land, and it would be very disappointing if they had to wait years before another purchase was made by the Board. He should like to point nut what had been done in Ireland. During the thirteen years since 1901 the Irish Congested Districts Board, with a revenue of under £100,000, had spent £1,500,000. They had bought nearly £500,000 worth of land, and "had spent money freely in other directions. They had, of course, borrowed money for the purpose, but if the Irish Board could do that, the Scotch Board ought at least to follow in its footsteps. He was pleased that there were indications that the landlords of Scotland were now more disposed to have crofters on the land than they used to be. He thought that the landlords had had their eyes opened to the fact that there were some advantages in having men rather than deer or sheep on the farms. In his own constituency there were one or two proprietors doing admirable work in cutting up large sheep farms. Mr. Macdonald, in Skye, was cutting up a large sheep farm and converting it into crofters' holdings. Mr. Macdonald was a distinguished officer in a company of Scouts, and he saw that if we were to have the very best class of soldiers we must make provision for their getting a settlement on the land.
    The Congested Districts Board this year was not issuing any seed. He quite approved of the policy of not giving the crofters the impression that it was the business of the Board to supply them with seed, but he believed this was about one of the worst seasons that would have been
    574
    chosen to stop supplying seed. The harvest last year was a very bad one, and in the West of Scotland there would be very little suitable seed available. Clause 3 of the Report indicated that the Congested Districts Board, except in exceptional circumstances, refused to grant a supply of seed. Ho knew, as a matter of fact, that the Board had refused or neglected to supply potato seed to tenants on their own property and that the land was consequently unproductive. He did not intend to deal so much with what was in the Report, as with what was not in it. He wished to contrast the work which had been done by the Scotch and that done by the Irish Congested Districts Board, The position of the population in the two districts was not dissimilar. The people were of the same race, and lived under the same social conditions; and he was bound to say that there was more poverty and distress in some parts of Inverness-shire than in many parts of Ireland. The Irish Congested Districts Board acted with some judgment in regard to their work. The Irish Report was full of what had been done for the improvement of the social condition of the people among other things they organised parish committees to assist and keep them, but it had never occurred, seemingly, to the Scotch Board to do that. The Irish Board through those parish committees gave grants to build byres and outhouses; but nothing of the kind had been done by the Scotch Board It seemed to him that the Scotch Board in most cases waited until they were asked to relieve some particular case, that they refused as long as ever they could to do anything, and at length when they did consent to do something they did as little as possible.
    He wanted to illustrate that by one or two facts that had come to his own knowledge. A very great deal was being done in Ireland to improve the fishing industry; but in reading the Report of the Congested Districts Board he found that the Scotch fishing industry was scarcely once mentioned. Now, Scotsmen were born fishermen, and the waters of the West of Scotland were teeming with fish. The Irish knew nothing about fishing, and the Irish Congested Districts Board had positively employed Scottish fishermen to

    575
    teach their fellow-countrymen how to fish. The result was that the Irish Congested Districts Board had now developed a most flourishing fishing industry. He had, over and over again, asked the Scotch Congested Districts Board to do something in this respect and to provide improved boats for the poor Scottish fishermen on the West Coast. Now-a-days, very much larger boats were needed than formerly; but the Scotch Board had done nothing in the matter. Again, he had asked the Board to provide curing stations where the fishermen might cure the fish caught by the smaller boats they at present possessed; but he was told that the Scotch Board had lifted up their hands in horror, and said that that was Socialism. Of course it was Socialism; but it was Socialism of the best kind, and was attended with the best results. The Irishmen had to be taught how to fish by Scotch crews, and the Irish Board had appointed Mr. Duthie, a Scotchman, to manage the business, and that gentleman had developed the Irish fisheries on their West Coast to the great satisfaction of the people. The Irish Board had now 180 instructors in fishing and eighty-four of these instructors were Scotch. They were not afraid of Socialism. The Irish Board had 148 boats which they lent out to fishermen and had also twenty-three fish-curing stations. To begin with, these had to be owned by the Irish Board, but it was only to enable the Irishmen to stand on their feet. And what was the result? On the Donegal and Galway coast alone the Irish Board had spent in boats and gear £18,000, and of that sum £7,700 had been repaid by the fishermen, while £3,000 had been deducted from the earnings of the crews, for their instruction. The Irish crews so instructed had earned £21,000; and the value of the fish caught last year in the area controlled by the Irish Board was over £50,000. It could be seen, therefore, what a very valuable assistance had been given to the development of the Irish fisheries by the Irish Congested Districts Board. On the fish-curing stations the Irish Board had, since 1901, spent over £38,000. Well, it did irritate Scotch Members when they found all this being done by the Irish Board, and when they were told by the Scotch Board that that was a
    576
    Socialistic movement. A long time ago he lodged an application with the Scotch Congested Districts Board for a grant to enable a crew to buy a proper modern boat for £150. The crew had considerable resources of their own, and they were strongly recommended by the principal men in the island; hut from that day to this he had never heard anything about his application. There must be something wrong with a Department carried on in that way. What had the Irish Board, with its Socialism, done? Last year they chartered and subsidised steamers to assist the fishermen; had actually arranged contracts between the fishermen and the fish salesmen; they subsidised Scotch boats to exploit new fishing-grounds; had purchased fish where necessary from the fishermen, cured the fish and sold it and had actually endeavoured in one case to induce the Irish buyers to buy Irish fish. That indicated what might be done by the Scotch Congested Districts Board. Compared with what the Irish Board had done, the Scotch Board had done nothing, at any rate about fishing.
    He knew that the Secretary for Scotland would say that the Fishery Board for Scotland advanced some money to West Coast fishermen which had been lost. But that was the Board's own fault. They provided the wrong boats and expended the money in the wrong way. The Irish Board had provided lucrative employment for a great many of the inhabitants of the congested districts in Ireland and had relieved their distressful condition very effectually. He knew of a small island off the West Coast of Scotland, called Eriskay, the inhabitants of which were entirely fishermen. On that coast the fishing had been very poor for the past two years and the fishermen had lost a great deal of money as well as their nets. The local priest, knowing that the mackerel and herring fishing was just coming on, applied to the Scotch Board for assistance for these fishermen to obtain new nets; and he himself had supported that application. He would like to ask at this point, Why should the local priest or local merchant or Member of Parliament have to apply to the Board? It was the duty of the Board to find out

    577
    these cases and apply a remedy. He had to-day received the following letter in regard to this case which he should like to read—
    "The Congested Districts Board are to give mackerel nets only to a few boats. I sent a list of fourteen boats from Eriskay. Only three boats get nets, and of twenty-two in Uist only five get nets, and instead of giving six nets to a boat these few selected get for each boat nine pieces and all the rest none. Now, I think this is iniquitous, as the poor people were so full of expectation, now blasted completely away. Several came in their extremity to me to write to you strongly on the point. This winter was behind in supplying wreck drift ware for their land; but a good supply came lately, to which they gave their attention. Now with the wet weather they cannot get along with their tillage, which predicts a late and poor harvest; add to that no chance of fishing (what they look forward to) mackerel, and it makes the life of our unfortunate crofter fishermen a very gloomy one indeed. Can anything be done to explain the condition to the Government? In regard to herring nets for the Eriskay fishermen, will the authorities not listen to plain facts? This morning an Eriskay boat: came into the Loch with four crans of herrings, ' the first for the season. They report good appearance, but that boat and others from Eriskay with fifteen to twenty nets in all when: they ought to have at least forty. How is it possible to make headway? They have the boats, the experience and the will, I can assure you, but lack nets as I explained to you. If any accident happens, and they lose some nets they will be stranded. Now would be the time to encourage them, and not when they are totally stranded. I can recommend the Eriskay fishermen for pluck as sailors and fishermen; given the material they can fish aside anyone, and yet the Government for the Irish Vote will supply the Irish with boats, gear, and instructors, and leave the unfortunate Eriskay fishermen to their fate; and a net or two to each man (five in a boat) would be a great help. Will this be denied them when the season promises good? It shows what they can do when a native is the first to land herrings this season."
    That was a genuine case which had been neglected by the Congested Districts Board. He made the suggestion that this question chould be tackled seriously and on a large sclae. Let the Congested Districts Board appoint some one to give a report as to how best to meet this difficulty. There was a large population which could be relieved easily and effectually by the advance of a compartively small sum, and if it could be done it would have the best effect. He wished to know how the persons who were given nets were selected, when all were equally deserving and necessitous. He hoped that the Congested Districts
    578
    Board would carry out its work after the manner of the Irish Board. To show the scope of the work of the Irish Board, he might mention that it assisted at Foxford a factory, a Donegal tweed industry, creameries, herring barrel making, sale of thread and looms, boat building, and basket making. Altogether, the Irish Board had carried on its work in a way which the Scottish Board might well copy. It might be said that the Irish Board had more money than the Scottish Board: if they had larger resources they had very much larger, although not more acute, poverty to deal with. He did not ask the Scottish Board to spend more money. He believed the money at its disposal was ample to carry out all he asked. There must be something wrong in a Board which made so many mistakes, and he would like to know what it was. He had not any great faith in an unpaid Board; and he thought the work would be done better by a paid Board. He had over and over suggested that the Congested Districts Board should be abolished. He had no objection to the members of the Board; they were as good as could be got; but it was the inherent defects of the system which made the work of the Board inefficient. He would suggest that the work of the Board should be taken over by the Crofter Commission, which had given great satisfaction in its work. Indeed, when the Congested Districts Board wanted a report in reference to any part of the country, they usually asked the Crofter Commission to make it for them. Last year the Secretary for Scotland, who was then Lord-Advocate, stated that if the work were transferred to the Crofter Commission it would be removed from the control of Parliament; but he could not understand how, as the salaries and expenses of the Commission would have to be discussed on the Estimates. Many of the members of the Crofter Commission were members of the Congested Districts Board; and, therefore, it was not so much the Board as the system that would be changed. Something ought to be done, and would have to be done, if they were to get value for their money and if congestion was to be relieved.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item E (Congested Districts Board

    579
    (Scotland), Grant in aid) be reduced by £100."—(Mr. John Dewar.)
    MR. LEVESOX-GOWERsaid he wished to refer to the question, of the supply of seed. If ever seed were to be supplied it ought to be supplied this year, which was one of the worst years ever known in the Highlands. He observed that three parishes in Sutherland had been scheduled, whereas three parishes on the West Coast had been left out which were in a very bad way indeed. He saw with great pleasure that the Congested Districts Board was taking up the question of home industries. That would be a great advantage. Tire difficulty in the Highlands was that the crofts were too small, and that the crofters could not be got to remove even a small distance to larger crofts. As regarded co-operation, be quite understood the difficulty as far as selling farm produce and harvesting were concerned. He could not, however, understand any difficulty, for instance, in cooperating to have one shepherd to tend all the sheep in a township. Would not such co-operation be encouraged if the Congested Districts Board offered a prize for the best co-operative shepherding in townships in the Highlands. That might have a good effect. They had heard a good deal about the Irish Board, and very unfavourable comparisons were drawn of the Scottish Board in comparison with it. He agreed to a great extent with the hon. Member for Inverness: but yet he thought the hon. Gentleman was too hard on the Scottish Board. He wished to suggest the desirability of making a railway to the West Coast and connecting the Minch with the railway on the East Coast. If a light railway were not possible, a steam tramway might be established, which would greatly benefit the fishing industry. Although lie sympathised to a great extent with what had been said by the hon. Member for Inverness in reference to (he Congested Districts Board, he could not vote with him as the Board only had been in existence six years.
    MR. AINSWORTHsaid with regard to the question of land purchase, the small holders for whose benefit these schemes of land purchase were entered into and the
    580
    money paid had no desire to become the actual owners of their holdings. What they desired to do was to go on generation after generation with the feeling that though there was a superior landlord over them, they could continue to improve their holding and could not be removed. They had no desire to become the actual owners of the land as was the case in Ireland. The idea that they desired to transfer the holding to themselves must be put aside altogether. What they desired to do was to go on as at present under a superior landlord, and wherever there was a portion of territory occupied by small holders it was desirable, and would be to the benefit of those smallholders, that that territory should pass into the hands of the State, and that the tenants should in future be tenants of the State. If the Congested Districts Board had not been able to do as much as was hoped for in that direction, it must be borne in mind that they had only an income of £15,000 a year, to which a grant of £20,000 was subsequently added; and when they considered that the only body to which the Highlands and Islands could look for assistance was the Congested Districts Board, it was absurd to suppose that they could do much more than they had done with an income of only £35,100 a year. He hoped that before long they would see the Board in a much stronger position, and the money at their disposal applied as far as possible for public improvements and that their powers for the purchase and acquisition of land would be through the issue of Land-stock in a manner similar to that which had been so successful in Ireland. Wherever there was a congested district occupied by small holders, they should become tenants of the Board instead of tenants of individuals. If arrangements of this kind could be made, the Board would have much greater power to carry out improvements which hitherto they had not been able to perform, such as roads, lights, harbours, and piers, upon which the prosperity of the Highlands depended. This House, which was accustomed to deal with large counties in England, could hardly understand how poor the Highlands were. He hoped that in future, whenever assistance was asked for from the Board for such purposes as he had

    581
    indicated, the Board would be willing to make a grant without requiring any contribution from the county.
    MR.MACONOCHIEsaid the Congested Districts Board had done yeoman service in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, but he thought more might be done in the direction of trying to help in a commercial way the inhabitants of these districts. Some new manufacture might be introduced to help the fishermen and crofters. One great difficulty these men laboured under was the heavy cost of the transit of their fish. He remembered some years ago visiting the Island of St. Kilda, and on that occasion there were probably some three or four tons of halibut, lying on the beach for want of transit. When they considered that the transit rates formally of the different kinds of fish caught on the West Coast of Scotland came to nearly 50 per cent, of the total proceeds realised in the market, bethought the Congested Districts Board ought to direct its attention to a cheaper method of transit, which would benefit these districts materially. There was he heard, a big development in the peat industry. In the Island of Lewis and along the West Coast of Scotland they had large bodies of peat, and if it could be dealt with he felt sure it would be a benefit to the people. In 1874 he went to Stornaway and opened quite a new business, which brought many hundreds of thousands of pounds into the district. With regard to the question of the crofters and the cutting up of deer forests, he thought those landlords who had acted in a most liberal manner ought to be encouraged. When Lady Gordon Cathcart came into the possession of the Island of Barra there were only 8,000 acres divided among the crofters. She spent money on harbours and piers, and made roads also cut up another 4,000 acres amongst her crofter tenants making a total of 12,000 acres, and it was only justice to acknowledge what she had done. As to the deer forests, no tenants had been displaced in his memory, but he should be glad if anything could be done to keep the tenants on the soil. He did not look on the Congested Districts Board with any disfavour, but he felt sure that the time would come when the land question of Scotland would have to be dealt with,
    582
    not by tinkering the present laws, but as a whole, and he felt sure that something in the nature of Lord Ashbourne's Act would eventually have to be applied to Scotland.
    MR. WEIRsaid that much had been heard about the angelic manner in which Lady Gordon Cathcart managed her affairs, and he only wished there were more of the angelic order in the Highlands. Reference bad been made to the peat industry, but what was the use of such suggestions if the people could not get the peat? If the Congested Districts Board could secure the control of the peat lands it would be a practical step, as it was essential that they should catch their hare before they could cook it. The want of seed had also been mentioned. Again and again he had called the attention of the Congested Districts Board to the need for seed in the Island of Lewis he had done so at the request of a parish council in the island—and, as the people were not of a begging or cadging order, it must be taken that that request would not have been made without grave cause. But the Board merely stated that they would not give any more seed this year to districts which had been supplied before. The fact was, the Board would not take the trouble to ascertain whether or not real distress was prevailing. Who could be surprised at the manner in which these matters were managed, when it was remembered that the gentleman in charge merely received a small annual sum from the Board, and was, in fact, a servant of the Exchequer and Audit Department? If the work of the Congested Districts Board was to be properly attended to, it was necessary that a man should be appointed who could give his whole time to the business. In the early days of the Board it was said there was not sufficient work for such an appointment, but although that plea would not now hold good, the old system still went on, and would probably continue to the end of the chapter. For six years this torture and misery, muddling and mismanagement had gone on, he hoped the seventh year would open up a brighter era. It was a great disadvantage that the members of the Board were unpaid; if they drew salaries they could be told either to do their work properly or to clear out, but no such effective treatment could be meted out under existing circumstances. The question of

    583
    the cheap transit of fish seemed never to have occurred to the Board. On the West Coast one man had control of the steamers, and he imposed just what rates he chose. Why did not the Board make some efforts in that matter?
    There were many areas in his constituency which were terribly congested, but were not classed as congested districts. He would take only one—that of Loch Carron. In that district there were many fine deer forests which fetched high rents, but there was also a tremendous amount of congestion. These high rents, however, prevented the district being classed as congested. The Board drew a hard and fast line, and declared that if the valuation exceeded £1 per head of the population the district could not be described as a congested area. They ought to relax their rules, and throw a little common sense into the business. A fisherman must get his living partly out of the sea and partly out of the land for he could not go to sea during stormy weather. A quarter of an acre of land was not sufficient for him, and he ought at least to have enough land to keep a cow. He was aware that in many districts the poor children got no milk at all, and these people ought to have sufficient land to enable the crofter or the crofter fisherman to keep a cow, in order that he might have butter and cheese and milk for his children. At the present time in some places they had to go miles for milk, and if the farmer had a grudge against any particular persons he would not let them have any milk at all. The hon. Member opposite had referred to goats, and he should like to find out whether goats were likely to thrive in those parts of the congested districts. He wished to point out that while the Congested Districts Board had no power to construct railways they could construct roads and arrange for the running of motor-cars, thus providing transport facilities which would be an undoubted advantage to many parts of the Western Highlands. He advised them to make experiments with motor-cars with a view of opening up the Highland districts.
    The Report which had been presented to the House was a very full one but it was full of very stale matter. It
    584
    contained a good deal of what had happened from the first day that the Congested Districts Board was formed. A history of that kind was not wanted every year, and all they required was an account of what had been done during the past twelve months. He was glad to notice that the Report showed that the Congested Districts Board had displayed a little more energy this year, and the slightest advance in that respect was most acceptable. He deeply regretted that more had not been done for the people living in the Island of Lewis. What had been done there? Why only one small farm, providing for some thirty-two crofters, had been purchased, but more ought to be done in a district where there was such awful congestion. There was urgent necessity for the provision of more land for crofters' holdings in the Island of Lewis, where there was, at the present time, one farm six miles square right in the midst of all this congestion. That was a state of things which ought not to be allowed to exist. They had been told that the Highland landlords were ready to sell their land, but he denied it, and he should be only too pleased if the Congested Districts Board would personally interview the Highland landlords. Some time ago a circular was sent out to the landlords and when he was told that negotiations were pending he had always awaited the result. It was very unsatisfactory to find so many cases where they heard no more about the negotiations. In his own constituency he knew that the landlords had not responded to the circular letter sent out by the Congested Districts Board, and he wished to know if the Board had followed that circular up. The constituency of his hon. friend the Member for Argyllshire was practically in the same position as his own constituency. What right had those who drew up the Report to cast a slur on Members of this House by saying that they stood in the way of the Government passing the Bill to amend the Congested District Act? Members representing the Highlands never stood in the way of the Bill being advanced. His fear was that it would be allowed to slide for another year just as it had been allowed to slide for the last three years.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid there was nothing in the Report casting a slur on the Members of this House.
    MR. WEIRsaid the statement to which he referred might be in the appendix, but there was certainly a statement somewhere in the document to the effect that hon. Members had not allowed the Bill to go through. He urged the right hon. Gentleman to go ahead with the Bill. His tear was that this would not be done.
    THE CHAIRMAN: It is not in order to go into the prospects of legislation.
    MR. WEIRsaid he should not have touched on this matter but for the reference to it in the Report. He had no doubt the Secretary for Scotland would tike the hint and push matters forward. As to marine works not a penny had been expended in his constituency, and he thought the Congested Districts Board might take this matter into consideration and set aside a sum of money for the purpose. For the year 1903–4 the sum of £2,700 was put down for the Gravir and Cromore Road, but not a penny of that money had been parted with. The Report stated that the amount had been cancelled. What did that mean? He was sure the right hon. Gentleman had no desire to mislead the Committee, but this item had been very much muddled. The amount for "miscellaneous works" was £2,818, and of that sum the large county of Ross only received £167. He should like to know whether any steps had been taken to finish the road which had been in hand so long between Carloway and Stornowav. That road would provide a means of communication from the western to the eastern side of the Island of Lewis which would be of much service for the conveyance of fish caught on the Western Coast. The road was made for two-thirds of the distance, and he did not understand why it was not completed. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would see that something was done without further delay. As to the purchase of land in Skye by the Congested Districts Board from the trustees of the late George Alexander Baird, he found that the approval of the Court of Chancery had
    586
    not yet been obtained. Was this matter likely to hang in the Courts for months, or perhaps years? It had taken six years to get a small farm of 254 acres, in the Island of Lewis, where the people were living under the most awful conditions. In regard to the twenty-nine quarter-acre feus which had been secured, near Stornoway, he was told every year that the houses would soon be constructed but not one of them had yet been built. What was the cause of this delay? A good deal of land had been secured in Invernessshire. On what terms were the people to get these holdings? If they were to be on lease the same trouble would arise which had been felt in days gone by. The tenant at the end of the lease would run the risk of being thrust out of his home after spending his all on the holding. The lease system was a bad one. There were, no doubt, some good landlords, but there were also bad ones. One bad landlord could do no end of mischief in a countryside. The present landlord might be a very good man but his successor might be a tyrant.
    Then they had the old story of the bees and poultry. The people wanted some instruction in bee-keeping; it was not enough to send them a bee-hive. And it was the same in regard to poultry-keeping. He would be delighted if large supplies of eggs and chickens and honey could be obtained from the Highland crofters; but the Congested Districts Board would never do any good until they realised the fact that the crofters needed instruction. That was what was done in Ireland. He would be glad if the Board would continue to make grants for roads, because the new Education Fund would swallow up the money from the Equivalent Grant which had hitherto been devoted to the construction and maintenance of foot path and foot-bridges. The people were too poor to provide roads and pathways for themselves. He was thinking of the poor children who had to go over rough moors to school; and unless the pathways were maintained, the children, especially in winter, would not be able to attend school. The Board in their Report said that they had not added any parish to the congested area within the year. They ought to be ashamed of themselves, and of the hard-and-fast

    587
    rules that they had made. He could not understand the rules as to the repayment of the price for seed potatoes. The people had paid for the seeds they had got before, and why could not the Board continue to supply this seed in these bad times? The people showed they were quite willing and anxious to make repayment. There was a paragraph about fishermen's dwellings, but he insisted that unless the cottages were provided with more than a quarter-acre lot the scheme would not be a success. In regard to loans for the purchase of boats, the Report stated that it was a question whether the advances should be made by the Government or by private persons. He knew a gentleman in the Island of Lewis, Mr. E. Mackenzie, shipbuilder, who had nobly come to the front and built boats for the fishermen, and fitted them out. That gentleman was getting his money back, but he could not extend these facilities, as he is not a millionaire. The advances should be made by the Congested Districts Board, and he was glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland was prepared to approach the Treasury and ask for an advance of money to the fishermen for better and larger boats. The fishermen were decent, honest, genuine, hardworking fellows, and were anxious to pay their debts. They were not schemers or swindlers. He hoped the Secretary for Scotland would not regard for a moment the remarks of men who knew absolutely nothing about the conditions of these people. They might want those fishermen some day; and the Congested Districts Board ought to realise the importance of the, fishing industry. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would do something to reform the Congested Districts Board. He would support the suggestion of his hon. friends that the work of the Board should be handed over to the Crofter Commission, which had done such excellent work and which had proved a godsend to the people.
    COLONEL DENNYsaid that in districts where poverty existed there was a keen desire on the part of the younger members of the community to improve their position and in many cases to learn trades. A society of which he was cognisant encouraged
    588
    boys to leave their homes in the High lands and become apprentices to firms in the South. The firms could not give them higher wages than were given to other apprentices, and the society subsidised the boys to a small extent by making up the difference between their wages and the cost of living. It was quite evident that a very fine class of workmen could be drawn from those districts; and, in that way, not only would the industry of tire country be improved but a great deal would be done to remove congestion and poverty in the Highlands. If the Secretary for Scotland could make known that the Congested Districts Board would advance the small amount necessary to supplement the wages paid to those apprentices until they received wages large enough to support themselves, he would be doing a great deal to help the smarter lads in the Highlands; and, at the same time, would materially assist the labour market. He knew from his own experience that such a scheme would be largely utilised and he would suggest to the Secretary for Scotland that it should be adopted.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that the discussion was now a considerable time in progress. It was commenced by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, who asked in particular some question about a road. He would make inquiries into the matter; but the hon. Gentleman could not expect him to sort of honour cheques, according to his own account of the story, of some local gentlemen who first voted for and then against the hon. Gentleman. That change was probably due to the hon. Gentleman himself rather than to the unfortunate landed proprietor; and was one of the disadvantages of sitting alternately on both sides of the House. The matter of the sea-fishing regulations had not been lost sight of, and he was prepared to carry out the pledge of his predecessor, Lord Balfour of Burleigh. The matter was actually in the hands of the Department of Woods and Forests, and was complicated by the legal question which was now raised as to whether the Crown had in Orkney and Shetland the same rights with reference to salmonidae in Orkney and Shetland as they had in other parts of Scotland. That depended on whether

    589
    the law had a different application, and whether the old Scottish statutes were or were not held to include the question. He believed that a test question was to be raised, and it was quite obvious that until the question was settled it would be quite impossible for the Crown to make arrangements, when, as a matter of fact, they might not have the necessary authority. He acknowledged with great pleasure the speech of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, because he gave very generous, though he was was sorry to say somewhat tardy, recognition on the part of others of the noble efforts of Lady Gordon Cathcart. He was glad the spirit with which that lady had been actuated had at last been freely acknowledged.
    He had the pleasure of listening for a considerable period to his hon. friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty. The hon. Member was in a scriptural vein and complained that he had to wait as long for his improvements as Jacob waited for a wife, and he said that the landlords were like Pharaoh and hardened their hearts. He had seen the hon. Gentleman before in this rôle of a grumbling Moses, and he was not very much disturbed thereby. He was, however, somewhat astonished at the speech of the hon. Member for Inverness-shire. On other occasions in past years he acknowledged that the hon. Member took a sober and sane view of the operations of the Congested Districts Board; but on this occasion his speech was marked by querulousness and unreasonableness that was quite foreign to his ordinary speeches in the House. The hon. Gentleman summed up the situation after reading the Report of the Board that he found little new and very little done. That was an assertion which he would leave anyone who had read the Report to deal with. It was perfectly certain that during the last two months, apart from anything else, they had bought land to the value of £100,000. That was a thing which hon. Members opposite had been asking for for years, and he quite understood, without claiming any credit for himself, that the action of the Board in that respect had the support and approval of hon. Members opposite. He was not going to take any credit to himself which he did not
    590
    deserve. He had not inaugurated a new policy or changed what his noble predecessor did before. It was only owing to the prudent disposition of Lord Balfour of Burleigh and the way in which he managed the finances of the Board during its early years in order to effect those purchases. Year after year hon. Members opposite used to point to the large balances at the credit of the Board and he himself had often to express an opinion how exceedingly unreasonable those criticisms were. If he might say so without offence, hon. Members opposite were like children who wanted to see a plant growing before their very eyes. The full measure of the prudence displayed by Lord Balfour of Burleigh had only been really shown in its true proportions this year. What were the facts? He would pass over the purchase of Glen-dale Estate, but hon. Members would know very well that probably there was no part of Scotland in which they could have acted better in putting the lands in the control of the occupants and allaying passions which in the past had given trouble to many. It was well known to Members that this was the head of the unfortunate agitation which occurred many years ago, and he was very glad to be able to make that purchase. The other purchase was much more important, viz., the Kilmuir Estate. According to competent authorities that was one of the very best estates for the purpose of crofter settlement that could have been acquired, and it was not because it was in Inverness and not in Ross that it was acquired, but because it was such a good estate. He thought it was rather ungrateful that the hon. Member for Inverness had told the Committee the talc of woe he did.
    MR. JOHN DEWARsaid that he gave the Board credit for land purchase.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that the hon. Gentleman wanted the Board to spend all their money on land purchase and give him everything else he wanted as well. As a matter of fact negotiations for the purchase of the estate were undertaken some years ago during the tenure of office of his noble friend. They had not then sufficient money to purchase the whole estate and the proprietor quite rightly declined to sell a portion of it

    591
    Now owing to their larger resources they had been able to buy the whole estate en bloc when it came into the market and to make what he believed to be a very good bargain. But that sort of thing could not have been done if Lord Balfour had listened to and dealt with the complaints made year after year that the Congested Districts Board had done nothing but sit with its hands in its pockets, because there would never have been a balance to make a really good bargain when opportunity arose.
    MR. JOHN DEWAR: How did the Irish Congested Districts Board do so?
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I will come to that in a moment. Continuing, the right hon. Gentleman said on the general policy he might say he had at last redeemed the Congested Districts Board from the opprobrium which had always fallen upon it before for having every desire to burke land purchase. He had not changed the policy of Lord Balfour, who would, had he remained in office three months longer, have carried though the purchase which had taken place. But so far as the Congested Districts Board was concerned in doing good for the people, he held that land purchase, though a great object, was not the main object of the Board, and for carrying into the country the means and capacity of' improvement and self-help more would be done in the long run by other things than by land purchase. Land purchase would never do more than touch the fringe of the question, and there could be no better illustration of this than the state of the Island of Lewis, which was the most congested spot in the Western Highlands. If all the land was taken away and given to the inhabitants to-morrow Lewis would be just as congested on the day after as it was to-day. Until sub-squatting was absolutely prohibited congestion would never be got rid of With regard to the interpolation of the hon. Member for Inverness-shire it was no part of his (Mr. Graham Murray's) business to detract from any praise the hon. Member had given to the Irish Congested Districts Board, but when the hon. Member came to establish his illustration he signally failed. One must judge people by their
    592
    resources, and the Congested Districts Board of Ireland had twice the income of the Scottish Board, besides which it had two enormous funds, which Scotland had not, on which to borrow. It had an unlimited fund so far as land purchase was concerned, and for other purposes it had a fund on which to borrow of £1,500,000. What was the use of comparing the actual output so to speak of the work of those two bodies whose resources showed so great a disparity? In the catalogue of the various thing? which the Irish Congested Districts Board did, with which the hon. Gentleman favoured the Committee, there were many things actually outside the power of the Scottish Board. The hon. Member had made a great point of what the Irish Congested Districts Board had done for the Irish fisheries, which was about as bad an illustration as the hon. Gentleman could take. Until a few years ago the knowledge of the proper methods of fishing was in a very unsatisfactory state, and the operations of the Irish Congested Districts Board was of an educational character, and the hon. Member reached the height of absurdity when he suggested that the methods of the Irish Congested Districts Board should be copied in that matter. The hon. Member for Invernessshire surely could not have read page 24 of the Report with regard to this.
    And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee Report Progress; to sit again this evening

EVENING SITTING.

  ALLEGED ILL-TREATMENT OF NATIVES IN SOUTH AFRICA.
  Adjournment (under Standing Order No.10).
  MAJOR SEELYsaid in rising to move the adjournment of the House it was not necessary for him to apologise for having interrupted the business of the House on account of the matter to which he wished to call attention not being sufficiently urgent or important. When anyone of His Majesty's subjects or indeed anyone in His Majesty's

  593
  dominions was subjected to ill-treatment this House had always in the past, and would continue in the future, to demand that the case should receive the fullest investigation. A body of fresh evidence having now arrived in this country with regard to the treatment of the natives in the mines the House would pardon him for bringing the matter forward. He was quite sure that, apart from any question of politics or of opinion about the particular kind of labour that should be employed in South Africa, in the minds of almost every Member of the House and of almost every one in this country there was a crowing sense of profound anxiety as to whether there was any truth in the persistent rumours and allegations that the natives were being treated unfairly, improperly, and in some cases cruelly. As the result of a question put in the Cape Parliament by Mr. Fuller, now a member of the progressive Government of that colony, the then Cape Government appointed a Commission to investigate why the natives did not go to the Rand in greater numbers to seek employment. At the head of the Commission was Mr. Brownlee, and sixteen native chiefs were chosen from the various districts. It was a friendly Commission sent by the Cape Government with the view of obtaining more employment for the natives. They proceeded to Johannesburg, and for some time were engaged in visiting the various compounds and railway centres. In due course they returned and each member of the Commission made out a separate report, the whole of which had been summed up by Mr. Stamford, whose statement was a most remarkable one. There was a unanimous opinion that there had been unfair and improper treatment in respect of the wages being paid at a less rate than was promised. Although there was a divergence of opinion between Mr. Brownlee and the chiefs as to cruelty, flogging, and other matters, there was no divergence as to payment of wages being less than what was promised. The hon. Member then quoted extracts from the Blue-book issued to the Cape Parliament to show that in every case almost this same complaint was made. Mr. Brownlee, who accompanied the Commission, said that, taking it all round, the treatment of the natives was generally good, but he qualified that by showing
  594
  that in many cases there was unkind treatment. That statement brought him to a point which had been mentioned on previous occasions, namely, that a little leaven of cruelty leavened the whole lump, and since the Witwatersrand Labour Supply Association came into existence there was no competition among mine-owners for labour, and therefore there was no incentive to treat the labourers better seeing that no more labour could be obtained by so doing. The shortness of labour was largely due to the cases of cruelty in the treatment of the natives—cases which he could not admit to be few in number. Having regard to the evidence of Mr. Stamford, assistantt chief magistrate, who forwarded the whole Report and summed up its conclusions, he said that misrepresentations with regard to wages were made by the labour agents; that occasionally wrongful deductions were made, and that assaults by European overseers and by the police were of frequent occurrence. Under these circumstances it was not likely that more labour would be obtained for the mines, but the question was whether this House, which was responsible for what had been done by these men, was to blame for allowing a state of affairs, which was not worthy of a great nation like ourselves, to continue. If these were the facts, they required more than ordinary attention from the Government and from the House.
  If hon. Members had known of what was in this book, much that had been done in the last few months would never have been done. There was a general feeling of distrust in the House as to whether the conditions of labour on the Rand were such as ought to permitted under the British Crown, and the reason for that distrust was the terrible mortality in the South African mines. For the last year that rate averaged 80 per 1,000, and it was said that the cause was a sudden epidemic of influenza, but during the last six months it had increased to nearly 90 per 1,000. People were in the habit of reading the death rate of great towns in this country, and in some it was as high as 18 or 20 per 1,000, but what would be said if it rose to half those figures. That was

  595
  nearly 20 times the rate of mortality in English mines. What was the cause? There was no other employment in any part of the world which showed such a terrible mortality. One of the reasons was that the mines were not properly ventilated and another was that the sleeping quarters for the miners were unfit for habitation, and if it were true, as stated in the reports, that sick men were forced to work, that also might account for a good number of the deaths. It was evident that a state of affairs prevailed on the Rand which was a discredit to South Africa, and to this country, which allowed it to continue. Now they saw the whole sordid story. The only safeguard for these natives was that when the conditions became intolerable they need not go to the mines. But now this country was asked to enable the mine-owners to escape the necessary consequences of not maintaining proper conditions for their labourers. It was enough to make Members of the House of Commons ashamed of themselves. Hitherto complaints on this subject had lacked the support of the necessary statistics; but this Report supplied that confirmation. Members who voted for Chinese labour must now see that they were wrong, and he respectfully asked the House of Commons, even at the eleventh hour, to pause before taking any step to perpetuate this shame.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Major Seely)
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid that the importance of his hon. and gallant friend's Motion was aggravated by the proposal of the Government to introduce Chinese labour into the South African mines to replace the natives who had been driven away by the treatment which his hon. friend had described. The facts of this Blue-book were an absolute justification for any hon. Gentleman who had voted against Chinese labour. We had been confronted with a shortage of labour in South Africa, though there were enough natives to work all the mines many times over, and this Blue-book supplied the reason for it. There were enough natives to work all the
  596
  mines many times over, but they had a great reluctance to go, and this Blue-book, which had so fortunately and fortuitously come to hand, supplied the reason. As his hon. and gallant friend had told the House, a Commission was appointed in August of last year on the Motion of a gentleman who was now a Minister in Dr. Jameson's Government. The official representing the Native Department, who was placed at the head of the Commission, was a man of very high qualifications, Mr. Brownlee; and the headmen of the different tribes in the great native district under Cape Colony were selected by the Secretary to the Department of Native Affairs, who was assisted in his selection by Sir Godfrey Lagden and others. The Commission which proceeded to Johannesburg in September were afforded all possible facilities by the Government of the Transvaal for making themselves thoroughly acquainted with the whole state of affairs, and they recognised the fact in their Report. They were undoubtedly an observant body. One of the first things they noticed was that—
  "At various of the compounds the boys complained of being hurried by means of the application by the native police of the gentle stimulus of cow-hide. That there is ground for the complaint I think there can be no doubt; and at the Geldenhuis Deep, where there are a number of Pondos employed, a native policeman in our presence began an impartial administration of this form of stimulation to the crowd which surrounded us, and when asked why he did it, replied that he wished thereby to show his respect for us and to remove the crowd which lie said he thought was causing us annoyance. Whether this practice is universal or not, what at any rate was noticeable was that almost without exception the compound police carried sjamboks, and at the Village Deep, where a number of boys from the Transkeian territories are employed, there were complaints of this hustling by the compound police."
  There was almost a touch of humour in the next comment—
  "It will, I think, be readily conceded that under any circumstances an inquiry having for its object the elicitation of complaints against employers by employees, is one demanding a certain amount of delicacy of handling. This difficulty we felt in a more marked degree by reason of the fact that we were in a manner dependent on the courtesy of the people and authority of the Transvaal, and that the employers were always present, and the employees for that very reason were under a certain sense of moral restraint."

  597
  Mr. Brownlee was no fanatic, and there was much in his Report which showed that he was not anxious to press the case unduly against the mine-owners. That he desired to state the truth, but no more than the truth, might be shown by one illustration. It used to be the practice to punish the Cape boys by putting them in stocks and dark cells. The new Government, to Lord Milner's credit, collected those stocks and burned them. Mr. Brownlee did not omit to mention this fact, and he stated that in his opinion the treatment of the natives at the mines was generally good. How far that expression of opinion was justified the House would be able to judge from the extracts his hon. and gallant friend had read. The Commissioners remained at Johannesburg for about a week, during which time they visited a great number of compounds and interviewed many persons. In particular, Mr. Brownlee had an interview with Mr. Macfarlane, the general manager of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Supply Association. The evidence was very interesting, and he hoped that his right hon. friend would see that this Blue-book was in the hands of every Member some time in the course of the next week. Mr. Brownlee said, among other things, to Mr. Macfarlane—
  "I cannot get over an impression that the native police at the com pounds are in the ha bit of hustling boys and quickening their movements by a gentle application of cow-hide. I do not think the men like this."
  Headman Bungiso Sangqu stated—
  "One word I would like to say upon a point which has just been touched upon, and that is, that under the heading of ill-treatment was the beating of natives, which was considered by the natives as a great insult."
  The instructive part of the interview was Mr. Macfarlane's answer. He said—
  "With regard to the question of ill-treatment, have looked into that personally, and I have visited several mines where the complaints were most bitter, and I really feel satisfied that the mine authorities in one instance where they used a certain amount of corporal correction were entitled to do so. This particular instance was one of insubordination. The head man of the gang, after repeated warnings, continued to in the remainder of the gang to stop work, and disregard reasonable and proper instructions on the part of the mine officials. This was the most serious complaint that was brought forward to my knowledge, and, as I say it appeared to me as one which called for correction on the part of the mine officials."
  598
  Mr. Brownlee's comment upon this was—
  "That the administration of a certain amount of corporal correction by the compound managers exists will, I think, be admitted after reference to the notes of an interview which I had with the chairman of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. I do not think that any power of this nature should be left in the hands of compound managers."
  The right hon. Gentleman who a year ago was Secretary for the Colonies did a number of things during his tenure of office to which many people were able to give only a modified measure of support, but he carried the House as a whole with him when he was able greatly to reduce the amount of flogging which took place all over the British Empire. It was a question on which the right hon. Gentleman held very strong personal views. They were a survival of views which he held when he entertained other views upon many other questions. He did not know that he would go quite so far as the right hon. Gentleman did in this matter, because, having been out in that country, he could conceive of certain circumstances in which corporal punishment moderately administered was less cruel to these men, who were almost children, than cooping them up in prisons and dark cells. But there was one kind of corporal punishment which the House ought to condemn without the slightest reservation, and that was the punishment which was administered, not by the authority of the law, but at the caprice and will of any petty tyrant of an overseer. All this indiscriminate bullying and stimulating movement "by the gentle application of cow-hide" was a gross breach, of the criminal law, and ought to be proceeded against so that the guilty persons were punished in the most severe and exemplary manner.
  Mr. Brownlee then came to what he considered the most serious complaint, one which the Commission found most widespread, and of the existence of the cause of which there seemed no reason to doubt, the complaint with regard to pay. The complaint was that the men had been paid at a very much lower rate than that which was promised to them by the recruiting agents. Mr. Brownlee said that in the great majority of the compounds visited this complaint was made, and that, although the Labour Association

  599
  authorities strenuously insisted that this state of things did not exist, he was satisfied that it did exist. The Labour Association existed for the purpose of regulating and distributing native labour; it regulated the rate of wages, and paid the labourers. The majority of the mines were affiliated with it, and had entered into an agreement to obtain labour only through its medium. It was the "tied-house" principle, but the association dealt with labour instead of with liquor. The Labour Association employed a larger number of recruiting agents, some of whom were paid by salary, but the great majority by a commission proportionate to the number recruited. It was true that the rules of the association had been relaxed so far as to admit of individual mines sending out their own recruiting agents, but that was subject to the stipulation that all labourers so recruited should be passed through the books of the association. Mr. Brownlee charged the Labour Association with habitually indulging in fraudulent and misleading promises to the men. A single instance might be given. One of the natives whom he interviewed said his complaint was that he was promised £4 a month for working above ground, and that he only got £2 10s. for working underneath. "Who promised you £4?" asked the mine manager. "The recruiting agent," said the native. "Oh!" said the manager, "he was only making love to you." The Native Labour Association apparently did a great deal of this love-making, and he (the hon. Member) asked whether they were not liable to an action for "breach of promise."
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,)thought the hon. Member was hardly correct in saying that Mr. Brownlee brought such charges against the Association as a whole.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid he did not pretend to be quoting textually; but he thought in view of Mr. Brownlee's further statement that the Commission received no complaint from any labourer engaged independently of the Labour Association, and the frequent complaint throughout the whole Blue-book that the men had been promised more than they
  600
  had received, he was justified in the general statement that the Association made fraudulent and misleading promises.
  MR. LYTTELTON: The hon. Member is acute enough to see the difference between an isolated statement made by the agent of an association and authority given for such a statement by the association. I think the House is just enough to see that all of us are liable to have a bad servant. I do not think the House; would say that a man whose servant has against his orders misrepresented him is himself guilty of that misrepresentation.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid he had no desire to pursue the point. The House knew the enthusiasm which personal charges engendered in certain quarters, however little they were intended to wound or injure personally.
  Mr. Brownlee continued—
  "The second point in connection with pay which gives rise to complaint is this—that while the rate of pay offered to boys is £210s. per month for surface work, and £3 for mine work, these are not the sums for which they are contracted with the mines—the contract rate being Is.8d.and2s.per diem respectively according to the locality of the work Should a boy work every day in the month he may earn. £2 10s. or £3. Now, were this explained to the boys and they clear understood that they were paid by the day, pay would be docked for any day not worked, and the payments made punctually at the end of the month for the days actually worked, there would be no ground for complaint. But the boy is first told be is to get £2 10s. or £3 a month, and thinks he is a monthly servant. Then in the association compound be is told that he will be paid so much a day, and finally, in the mine compound he is told that he will be paid for thirty days work, the effect of this being that if through any fortuitous circumstances in any given month a boy has been able to work, say, only twenty-five days, he will have to go on and work five days into the next month before he receives his pay, and an element of confusion and dissatisfaction is at once introduced, while to make confusion worse confounded, the further element of notice becomes involved."
  There was another aspect of the Labour Association that deserved consideration. If the men were engaged independently by the different mine-owners competing for their services the popular mine would gain. But this association enlisted a great number of men, and disposed of them as it wished. Consequently, all human incentive on the part of those

  601
  who administered the mines was destroyed. No penalty attached to those who treated the men badly; no special reward was given to those who treated them well. Three mines were mentioned over and over again in the Blue-book as being particularly bad, viz. Geldenhuis, Village Deep, and Railway Compound.
  MR. JOHN STROYAN: A railway compound is not a mine.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: It is an establishment, at any rate. I do not pretend to have the expert knowledge of the hon. Member; but it requires no expert knowledge to understand this Blue-book.
  MR. JOHN STROYAN: It does not want expert knowledge, I think, to know that a railway compound is a place where natives working on the railway are kept.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid that many of the mines had very peculiar names, and he was not at all satisfied that the hon. Member's interpretation was the correct one. The prejudice against employment in the mines was general because the natives did not know to which mine they might be sent. He made no general charge of inhumanity against the mine-owners. He had seen some of them fighting in the field, and no doubt many of them were perfectly humane. But the fact remained that, what with the influence of the Labour Association and what with the undoubted malpractices that wont on in certain special localities, the whole of the Johannesburg mines had got an extremely bad name, and that was why the natives would not go there. Was it not rather a sad thing that Johannesburg, the great spring of wealth, where all the gold rose to the surface of the ground and where they ought to be able to pay the best wages and offer the most attractive conditions, should be in the mind of the South African native a place of melancholy tribulation and hard work? If the House would permit him he would read extracts from the reports of one or two of those native chiefs who were the head men of the different tribes, and doubtless what they told the Commissioners they would tell their own people.
  602
  On page 22 of the Report a man named Langa said—
  "First, the labourers at Johannesburg complained of the wages. They stated that the labour agents in the territories promised them certain wages, but they were paid a great deal less. On ascertaining the amount of wages paid we were informed by the labourers that they were only paid from £1 10s. to £3 10s. per month, whereas the labour agents had promised them £3 10s. and upwards. The employers admitted that they were paying from £1 10s. to £3 10s. per month and that if the agents had promised more, they did so without authority.
  "Second, the labourers also complained of being thrashed by the Basuto and Tshangana (Shanguan) police who are over them, but we could not get to bear the reason.
  "Third, they also complained of being forced to work when ill, and did not get proper care and treatment; and when their friends wished to take them home, they were not allowed to do so; consequently a number died at the Rand for want of proper care and treatment.
  "Fourth, they also complained that they were forced to work on Sundays and stated that beyond its being wrong to work on Sundays, they required one day's rest out of the week."
  Upon another occasion in the House of Commons much indignation was expressed at the suggestion that the importation of Chinese labour partook somewhat of the nature of slavery. He never agreed with that, but what condition of things did these facts indicate. These people were tricked into their period of service, they were paid less than they were promised, they were thrashed, they were forced to work when ill they did not get proper care and treatment in illness, and when their friends wished to take them home they were not allowed to go, and they were forced to work on Sundays against their will without being given credit for overtime. He did not wish to be led into using any words which might excite the indignation of his right hon. friend, but if this state of things did not approach to the nature of slavery then they wanted a new word added to the English language. Here was the evidence of another chief on page 23—
  "We visited some twenty centres in Johannesburg and different towns in the neighbourhood. We found that the labourers complained of being thrashed in some of the centres; some saying the treatment is good.
  "They are also forced to work on Sundays against their will, and get no remuneration for that day.
  "The real ill-treatment is the thrashing, and low wages and the days calculated as a month.
  "They must not be thrashed. When they, have done wrong they must be fined according

  603
  to the penalty provided by the law for the offence."
  On page 25 it was stated—
  "There are all sorts of complaints made by the boys—that they are sjamboked and bullied by these stupid indunas—and that when they are sick they are not allowed to go home."

  His hon. and gallant friend had read the very striking passage at the head of page 26, but on the next page was a statement that labourers proceeding to Johannesburg were also badly treated, that they were packed in trucks, and were not regarded as human beings. All these facts were corroborated by the assistant chief magistrate of that territory in a covering letter in this Blue-book. On the top of all came the death statistics, as a very grim and disquieting comment. Was there any wonder that the Cape Parliament passed a resolution with great unanimity and applause? What did all these facts come to? They seemed to him to provide a complete and discreditable explanation of the shortage of labour on the Rand. Could they wonder that the people would not go to work in the mines under those circumstances. He had ventured to read those extracts in support of the facts put forward by his hon. and gallant friend, and he did not think they required any further comment. They could all be read when the Blue-book was circulated to hon. Gentlemen in the House, and in the country, and he was sure they would be read with anger and with sorrow.
  He would only venture to make two further observations to his right hon. friend and to the House upon the facts as they had been disclosed. His right hon. friend had been called unexpectedly to occupy a great position, and that he had filled that position in a manner unexpected even by his friends would not be contradicted by anyone on either side of the House. His right hon. friend had the reputation of being a liberal-minded man. He was once a Liberal, but he was now a Liberal Unioinist, which was not quite the same thing. He was quite sure he did not wish to signalise his tenure of the Colonial Office by any degradation of the standard was upheld or lowered in that House, of treatment meted out by officials and Therefore they were bound in all white men under his authority towards cases of cruelty and the invasion of the native races. With that in his mind the rights of subject races to be vigilant he would like to ask his right hon. Friend
  604
  whether he did not think that the facts-disclosed in this Blue-book constituted a case for action in South Africa, and for delay in some of the operations he was carrying out in that country. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman this question. He was ransacking the whole world for labour for the mines, he had been prepared to face extraordinary Parliamentary difficulties for the purpose, to take infinite trouble and cause infinite vexation and irritation, and he had not been afraid to-hurt the feelings of many people who had voted solidly for him and his policy for a long time and who, irrespective of Party feelings, regarded the importation of Chinese labour as a bitter affront to them. Before making a new experiment, sinister in its character and far-reaching in its consequences, might it not have been worth while for the right hon. Gentleman to ask his officers in South Africa to look beneath their own feet and see what was going on in the workings of the Rand mines? Might not the remedying of existing grievances and the meting out of a higher standard of treatment to these natives have afforded some solution of the vexed and tangled problems of the South African labour supply?
  He would make one other remark in vindication of the course his hon. and gallant friend had adopted. A good many people said that the House of Commons took too much interest in subjects of this kind, and that they were inclined to be carried away by humanitarian considerations. They were told that the people who were interesting themselves in this matter were hysterical and maudlin. Those who reprobated humanitarian sentiment in others were very often people who had never seen a man flogged or killed. But the responsibility of the House in these matters was very great. They exerted influence and authority over the affairs of more than 400,000,000 people. Every official, from the highest to the lowest, from the Viceroy to the smallest Jack-in-office, in the whole hierarchy of the British Empire was influenced by the standard which was upheld or lowered in that House. Therefore they were bound in all cases of crueity and the invasion of the rights of subject races to be vigilant and emphasise these facts even if it

  605
  meant interrupting the course of Parliamentary business and causing inconvenience, especially when such facts were brought before them upon official information collected by men on the spot acquainted with the affairs of the locality, and embodied in formal State papers presented to a Colonial House of Parliament under the authority of the Crown. But if they were bound to be careful everywhere they must be more careful still in regard to the South African gold-fields, where more than 80,000 persons were concentrated within a very restricted area under conditions which were unusually artificial and almost unnatural. We were just as much responsible for what went on in the goldfields of South Africa as we should of if the compounds, instead of being thousands of miles across the sea, were in Regent's Park or St. James's Park. The labour of these men, and the conditions under which they lived, made an immediate and sensible effect upon the quotations of the share markets and upon the incomes of certain very rich people, and for that reason they should be doubly careful. We must not only regard the financial interests of these prosperous companies, but we must remember the human interest of the miner at the bottom of the mine. There was on page 29 in the evidence of one of the native chiefs, a statement which had a rather sad touch about it, for he said—
  "The men do not know where to go when they are ill-treated or cheated. The officers there in charge do not seem to understand the natives or have any sympathy for them.'
  That statement was wrong, because there was always one place where they could bring their grievances, and that was to the British Parliament. Whatever answer his right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary might be able to make, whatever check this discussion might impose on his plans for the importation of Asiatic labour to replace the labour that was now being driven away, there was one thing he hoped the Motion of his hon. and gallant friend would establish. He hoped it would establish clearly that in all the wide dominions of the King there was no man so unfortunate and so humble as to have his ill-treatment beneath the notice of that House, and that there was no province in the British Empire so distant as to be beyond their reach.
  MR. LYTTELTON: Mr. Speaker, we have debated upon three rather conspicuous occasions the policy of Chinese labour in South Africa, and the House has affirmed by considerable majorities, and increasing majorities, on each occasion, the necessity under which His Majesty's Government labour in countenancing and sanctioning the Ordinance which has been passed in the Transvaal. We are now asked, incidentally, by my two hon. friends, to embark once more in that debate. I do not intend to go back upon what has been already done, or to rediscuss questions which in this House have already been settled. If I were tempted to re-embark upon the matter, I could find a very sufficient justification for the policy which has been pursued in the two speeches, one made in my own hearing, in support of Chinese labour in the Transvaal made last year by my hon. friend who seconded this Motion. I do not deny the right to him of receding from the opinions which he entertained last year on this subject, and I should be ill-requiting the generosity with which he has spoken of me if I spoke with any bitterness of his change of opinion. All I will say is that if I were to ask for support of the policy of the Transvaal Government I could not do much better than invite the House to study the speeches made only twelve months ago by my hon. friend in support of that policy.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: It is perfectly true that I do not view the project in favour of the introduction of Chinese labour from the same point of view as many hon. Gentlemen opposite. I have distinctly stated, and I adhere entirely to that statement, that if you can prove that South Africa does not object, and if you can prove that the conditions are not inhuman, I should have no objection. But that is just what we have always asked in vain for my right hon. friend to do.
  MR. SPEAKER: I ought to remind both the hon. Member and the right hon. Gentleman that a debate on the Chinese labour question would not be in order upon this Motion.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I did not intend to pursue it for a moment longer, but my hon. friend having characterised that policy as one of a sinister character, I thought it well to remind the House that he at one time was a supporter of it. My hon. and gallant friend who moved this Motion, doubtless impelled by an irresistible desire to vindicate the wrongs of the natives in the Transvaal, for which I give him full credit, has thought fit to read from the evidence in the Report of Mr. Brownlee all that the Report contains hostile to his own countrymen and not a single passage in favour of them. I am sure there is not a man in this House, even if he has feelings of hostility to the Government and even to the country in their policy, who would desire that it should go forth from the floor of this House that scandalous conduct had been committed by any one of their fellow-countryman when there lies ready at hand, and in the same volume, contradiction of those statements made by the natives themselves—no more, it is true, worthy of credence than those which my hon. and gallant friend has read, but still at least in an assembly of Englishman, it is desirable and fair that they should be read as well as those which besmirch the character and impugn the motives of our fellow-countrymen in the Transvaal.
  MAJOR SEELY: I am sure the House will excuse me. The right hon. Gentleman is really making an accusation against me, imputing bad faith, which he would certainly not have made if he had been attending to my speech. The strongest part of this Report in favour of my countrymen, as he says, is the statement of Mr. Brownlee "that the treatment is generally good." Those hon. Gentlemen opposite who attended, which the right hon. Gentleman, no doubt being busy at the time, did not, will have noticed that I read out that particular passage, and I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not think he owes me some apology.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I was referring to the passages from the statements of the chiefs that were read out by my hon. and gallant friend. I think he read two passages, and he entirely omitted to read passages from three or even four chiefs who substantially said that there was
  608
  absolutely nothing to complain of in the mines.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Read them yourself.
  MR. LYTTELTON: My ton friend the junior Member for Oldham says, "Read them yourself. "I will read them; but I put it to the Members of the House, and I put it to my hon. friends, for I am perfectly certain that on reconsideration they will feel it, themselves, whether it is their view of patriotic duty that in a case where evidence has been given on both sides, and when they appear here in their responsibility as, so to say, prosecutors and indicters of their fellow-countrymen in the Transvaal, they should read passages from the evidence in chief that is in favour of the prosecution, and should altogether omit to read the passages which are in favour of the defence. Is it right, and I appeal to the judgment of fair-minded men on either side of the House, that Members of this Party, sitting on this side of the House, should bring this case against their fellow-countrymen in the Transvaal as a matter of great public urgency which will not wait for a day, and obtain your decision, Mr. Speaker, on that footing, when I told my hon. and gallant friend, in answer to a Question this evening, that I was prepared directly to lay the Papers dealing with this subject before the House It was only last Saturday that I received from Sir Godfrey Lagden, who has done more for the natives than any man in this country, the final Report dealing with the whole of this subject. It was sent at my own urgent and immediate request after I saw in Mr. Brownlee's Report the charges that were made against the proprietors of the mines. It is surely wrong and not right to bring before this House only half a case, when by waiting a couple of days you can have the whole case. I told my hon. and gallant friend that the Blue-book would be published directly, and I assured the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Rushcliffe Division, a few days ago, that the Papers would be published at an early date.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: The right hon. Gentleman has been telling me that story for three or four weeks.
  MR. LYTTELTON: Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to impute either negligence or ill-faith in this matter?
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: The right hon. Gentleman has told me for weeks that the Papers would be published at an early date.
  MR. LYTTELTON: It is a trifling matter. But perhaps the hon. Gentleman will suggest how, when I received this Blue-book only on Saturday last——
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: I will suggest it now if you like.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I really do not very much care what he does suggest. Unless he is a greater expert at the printer's craft than the King's printers, I do not think he could reasonably suggest that material such as I hold in my hand, which was received only on Saturday last, could have been published before this week. But let the House consider, is it right, or is it fair, dealing with people 6,000 or 7,000 miles away, dealing with charges which are made and with regard to which, I agree, there is evidence on both sides—is it fair for hon. Gentlemen in this House, members of this Government, presumably supporters of the Government [OPPOSITION laughter]—well, I leave my hon. friends and appeal to the other side. Would fair-minded Members on the other side think it right on Wednesday to bring forward a case which would have been complete on Friday, but which would have had the demerit of containing the case of their own fellow-countrymen instead of only the case for the other side? Now, I will obey my hon. friend's injunction and read the evidence of the chiefs which they have declined or omitted to read. It appears on page 24, A gentleman of the name of Bondwayo says—
  "On my arrival there (Johannesburg) I proceeded to the different compounds and there I saw that the natives were well treated at work, and that they were well fed. They only submitted to me two complaints—first that when they are sick they are not allowed to return home; and second, that when they are engaged here they are generally told that the wages were £3 or £4, and that when they get to Johannesburg their wages are reduced to £2 10s. per month."

  610
  Hon. Gentlemen appear to be so little acquainted with the process of investigation that they applaud to the echo the statements of a witness which are apparently discredited by a man of his own country and his own bias. The next sentence is, and this is the judgment in the matter—
  "I am prepared to tell all the natives in this district that the treatment of native labourers in Johannesburg is a very good one. As far as my own judgment, I could see no reason why people say they were badly treated."
  On page 27 another witness named Mtengwane Ludidi, after reciting complaints, gives his judgment in the matter. He says—
  "The labourers have no complaint about the food they are getting. The people were well paid when the Transvaal was under the Dutch"—
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: The right hon. Gentleman has left out an important sentence.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I will read the whole. The labourers claim that their' wages should be raised, and that those who fall sick should be allowed to go home, and that their friends should be allowed to take them—
  "The people were well paid when the Transvaal was under the Dutch, and now that the English, who are our friends, have rule, they should be paid better still. I say myself the wages of the labourers should be raised. The native Europeans and Zulu policemen should not be allowed to ill-treat and beat the labourers."
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLI apologise for not having read that.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I quite sympathise with hon. Members who interrupted me in the reading of that passage for in fact I was reading from the wrong page. I was reading the evidence of one of the witnesses for my hon. and gallant friend and not from a witness in support of the case I wish to put. I meant to read from page 32 instead of page 27. There we find the headman summing up his experience by saying—
  "Personally I was much satisfied with what I saw and learned at the Rand, and now am trying to induce labourers to go there, and at our monthly meeting here, at the request of Oar magistrate, gave a résumé of our journey

  611
  which I trust will have a beneficial result as soon as the men can leave after planting their crops which have been delayed on account of the drought."
  I do not for a moment say that there were not allegations both ways; but in the dilemma well known to those who be I long to my profession, when there is a conflict of evidence it is better to go by the judgment of the Judge, and I am perfectly prepared to abide by the broad terms of the decision Mr. Brownlee gave. In substance, without boring the House by reading extracts again, his general conclusion appears on page 7.
  MAJOR SEELY: I read that.
  MR. LYTTELTON: He says—
  "The conclusion we arrive at is that generally the treatment is fairly good."
  That is the general statement. I quite agree there were statements made by Mr. Brownlee in regard to payment of wages, of misrepresentations by the agents of the Labour Association. I was really astonished to find that lion. Members opposite who are well acquainted with trade unions failed to see the difference between an authorised agency and an unauthorised agent. The hon. Member who spoke just now did not deal with the point, but I was astonished that trade union Members, who have contended that a union should not be liable for the acts of its agents, failed to see it. It may be that individual members of the Labour Association, human nature being what it is in eagerness to secure recruits, may have overstepped the bounds of fair representation—I daresay that may be—indeed complaints were made that it had been done. But I do not think it would have been possible for the Labour Association to do more than they did. You will find on page 17 the form of contract set forth. There is the name of the native, the name of his chief, and there is the agreement that he will proceed to Johannesburg to work in the mines for not less than six months at Is. 8d. a day for surface work and 2s. for underground work. Nobody can pretend that at headquarters there was misrepresentation; an agent might give a rose colouring to the terms offered when trying to get a native to enter into an engagement; but all the people at headquarters could do was to
  612
  draw up the form of contract and make the matter perfectly clear and to punish an agent when convicted of misrepresentation. This is the fair conclusion from Mr. Brownlee's Report, and he is in the position of Judge deciding between various parties giving evidence one against another. He is convinced that in certain cases native labourers were deceived by agents of the association; he docs not say for a moment that every possible precaution was not taken by the Association. Mr. Brownlee makes no charge against the association, none whatever. I do not think there could be a clearer form of contract than is found here in the Blue-book. I do not think any fair-minded man in the House will say it is possible to make it more clear. More than that, a special regulation was passed whereby when a native enters Transvaal territory a passport is delivered to him, and no passport is given to a native to enable him to proceed until he has satisfied the British official who has charge of the passports that he understands the contract and knows what wages he is to receive. That is precaution on the top of precaution, and I do not know what more could be done. Mistakes, and worse than mistakes, there will be; but all that my Department had to do was to see that every precaution should be taken against fraud. But in that country, as in this and all countries, fraudulent people live and, I am sorry to say, sometimes thrive.
  The only other matter which was dealt with by Mr. Brownlee in his Report, and in which he found there was legitimate cause for complaint, is where he speaks of the striking of native labourers by native overseers, who carry sjamboks, and from time to time used them in a manner unfortunately too common in that country. Nobody defends that for a moment. Let me point out this to the House. Of course cases of assault occur every day in this country by the hundred, but they are against the law and they are punished by the law when proved; and that is exactly the case in the Transvaal. Assaults made by native overseers on labourers working in the mines are against the law; they are punished when they are discovered. They have been the subject of prosecution on fourteen occasions in the

  613
  past year, and in thirteen cases convictions were obtained. It has been enjoined on the mine-owners, though I do not think such an injunction was necessary, that they should be most vigilant in this matter, and I may say in connection with the enforcement of the law and the detection of breaches of the law that fourteen inspectors are engaged, I and that in the course of one year nearly 10,000 visits of inspection were paid to the mines. Of course, we are all human and offences will arise; but I think I may put it to any fair-minded man that not much more can be done than to have a law against the thing and to provide a large number of inspectors to see that breaches of the law do not take place, and that when breaches of the law do take place prosecutions shall follow. These are really the only two matters in Mr. Brownlee's Report in which, sitting as a Judge, and hearing conflicting accounts of natives, he himself ventures to say that there is any serious ground of complaint whatever. Upon all other matters before him I think he fairly sums up the case when he says that the treatment is generally good. I agree that the fact that natives do not go to the mines in very great numbers proves to some extent that they do not like the service; but the Portuguese natives go in large numbers. I believe that 80 per cent, are Portuguese, and I am told that many of them re-enlist after the first year's service.
  I fully agree that the mortality in the mines is a very grave matter; and obviously any matter that is considered grave by men like myself and the Members of this House is considered grave by a man of the high character and humane disposition of Lord Milner. I ventured to call Lord Milner's attention to the subject of the heavy mortality in the mines. I knew, of course, that the matter would be engaging his attention; but I ventured to call attention to it not long after I came into office. I asked him for his judgment upon it, and his telegram of 27th February, which would have been published, had my hon. friend been less impetuous, in the course of a week, is to this effect—
  "Your telegram of February 22. I entirely agree. The high rate of mortality in the mines, is the weakest point in our armour."
  614
  [Ironical OPPOSITION cheers.] Certainly. No mining work can ever be a healthy employment.
  "The death-rate ought to be enormously reduced. Very great efforts have been made lately in this direction. The majority of the mines have taken up the matter with energy.'
  So long ago as June, 1903, a Commission of doctors was appointed in the Transvaal, and they made a most valuable report, in which a number of most valuable suggestions were made, involving heavy expenditure on the mines, I an expenditure which has generally been cheerfully undertaken. The improvements recommended by the medical officers have been very widely adopted, though not yet universally. Unfortunately the results are disappointing so far. The medical experts are, however, unanimous that improvements have been effected and must tell in time. Now, I want the House to note this when they are considering this difficult question. No doubt one reason of the recent high mortality is that, owing to the extreme scarcity of labour, the mines have been recruiting any labour they can get, whatever the physique of the men. I ask the House to pause there. Humane men on all sides must deplore this mortality. They must see that when the greatest possible efforts are made to get labour, and when the natives are anxious to come and earn money, there is a liability for men of inferior physique to be brought into the mines, with the result that this deplorable mortality continues. I deplore it. I am sure every man in the House deplores it. I think the mine-owners, when they see its effect, deplore it also. [Ironical OPPOSITION cheers.] It seems to be a matter for merriment to the hon. Members oppsite. I think that most humane-minded men will feel that if the result of introducing Chinese labour is that men of full capacity and good health and good physique can replace these negroes, who come from tropical latitudes, and who for three months in the year, I am told, are practically unfit to work in the mines at all, on that ground alone, apart from other arguments which I have put forward on previous occasions, there is something to be said on the ground of humanity for the introduction of Chinese labour.

  615
  Now, I am happy to say that I am able to give to the House a more cheerful view with regard to this mortality, though I still admit that it is too heavy and ought to be diminished; and I believe it will be diminished as the result of the measures taken. The reports I have before me are not so deplorable as those quoted by my hon. and gallant friend. The Commissioner for Native Affairs in his annual Report dealing with the Commission of medical officers which was appointed to consider the question of mortality quotes their statement. It appears from it that the total annual death-rate, calculated on the basis of the aversge number of natives employed for six months, would be, not 90, but 57 per 1,000. Curiously enough, it appears that the death-rate among the natives employed in the Kimberley compounds, which are admitted to be admirably conducted, is practically identical—namely, 57·2 per 1,000 for the year 1902. Then there is a deduction to be made for accidents, which would put the rate at 54 per 1,000. I do not say that is satisfactory: but it is very much better than the figures given by my gallant friend, which I am unable to appreciate or understand. I cannot give the exact figures because they cannot be given, but I have been told by high authorities in this country who have come from South Africa—by the Bishop of Mashonaland for one, who is not friendly to the policy which I have had to advocate in this House—that the mortality in the kraals of the natives is enormously high. To compare, as was done by my hon. friend the Member for Oldham, the mortality among the miners, the picked labouring population of this country, with that in a climate which is not so healthy, and among a far more feeble and susceptible race, is not really to institute a fair comparison. But be that as it may, I called Lord Milner's attention to the subject most urgently, and the telegram which I have read to the House shows how fully he appreciated the fact that the mortality was too great and ought to be diminished No one can feel a doubt on the subject. If I only had the time, and the House had the patience, to digest this nook, which is entirely composed of tables giving the answers to questions put by the Commissioners to natives in
  616
  the Transvaal in all the mines, and the recorded answers, it would be seen what immense exertions have been made to carry out all the reforms which were suggested by the medical board and by Mr. Brownlee, and by every other scientific investigator whom they could consult.
  In truth and in sincerity it is a pity this debate should have taken place. I assured my hon. friend that I would directly lay the Papers upon the Table, the book is in my hand, and it will be in the hands of hon. Members directly, before Saturday, when they will have ample opportunity, if they can find any holes in it, to criticise it. What I venture to deplore is that the time of the House should be occupied in discussing this matter when I believe no one in the House, except myself, is in possession of the whole case. I have spent all the time since the notice of this Motion in trying to get some summary of this book, which has only just been put into my hands; but I do not like to give the House my own impression of a document so hurriedly perused. I can only give the summary which is given substantially by the authorities in South Africa, who assert that the most sincere and most strenuous endeavours have been made by the mine authorities to put in force the requisitions that were made by the medical board and Mr. Brownlee, and that within the time that they have had to put those suggestions into force a really remarkably good result has been obtained. The death-rate in February was actually brought down to 35 per 1,000. I do not want the House to be misled: January and February are always good months, and, I think, March, in former years, when things were worse, the death-rate in February went down as low as 40 per 1,000. It is lower now than it has ever been before, however, and another good symptom is that for two months in succession there have been better records than previously. I do not think I can say much more, profitably, on the present occasion.
  MR. HALDANEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman could say what steps had been taken with regard to miners' phthisis, in view of the recommendation by Lord Milner's Commission as to working on the wet system.
  MR. TENNANTasked what steps had been recommended in the mines.
  MR. LYTTELTO: I wish I could give those details. I have spent all the time I could since the notice of this Motion was given in perusing this Blue-book. I frankly own I have not read t he whole of it and though I have read a good deal about pneumonia, and though the supply of blankets and proper clothing to the native labourers when they first come to bank and have to go from the mine to the compound strikes me as a very important measure, I am not able to tell the House with accuracy whether the recommendation as to the allaying of the fine dust in the mines, which I know is a source of danger to the lungs, his been carried out. During the last three or four months there has been really poignant distress among the community in the Transvaal, and acute anxiety; and I do ask the House to agree that, considering the enormous improvement which has been made, this is not the occasion for any assembly of Englishman, without having seen the case which can be made, and which is made in these books, to pronounce one word of censure upon those whose case they have imperfectly apprehended, and who have been represented by me at a time when I was imperfectly informed.
  MR. JOHN ELLISsaid that nobody would deny that they ought to thank the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway opposite for bringing this matter forward. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight introduced the question in a speech of great moderation and ability. Having himself looked through the Cape Blue-book he could say the hon. Member was absolutely fair in the quotations which he had read from the Report. The hon. Member for Oldham had been also absolutely fair in the particulars with which he supported his arguments. Where ever they sat he was sure that these two hon. Members would be distinguished ornaments of this Assembly. The right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary had attempted to dispose of the case by quoting documents which were not before the House. That was the pity of the matter, and who was to blame for that?
  618
  The right hon. Gentleman complained that the case had been brought on before the complete evidence necessary to arrive at a proper conclusion was forthcoming. His reply to that was that the Notice Paper contained a Motion relating to Chinese Labour in the mines which debarred any discussion upon that subject; and, if that evening had been allowed to pass without attention being called to the question of native labour generally, a blocking Motion would have appeared on the Notice Paper within the next few days, shutting out a Motion affecting the mortality and the treatment of the native labourers in the mines. The Colonial Secretary had dealt largely with the statement of Mr. Brownlee, who was, after all, a subordinate in the matter. The case had been summed up by Mr. Stamford, his superior in the following words—
  "The enquiry I think clearly establishes that misrepresentations with regard to wages are made by the labour agents, that occasionally wrongful deductions are made, assaults by European overseers and the native police are of frequent occurrence."
  The right hon. Gentleman had not disposed of these two charges which amount to fraud and cruelty. The reports of the headmen in regard to these points were extremely strong. He had this to remark about the evidence of the natives: that it was a grievous pity that on every possible occasion the employer was present when the natives were questioned. These men ought to have been taken apart and encouraged freely to state what was in their minds. He contended when that was not done the evidence of these natives was vitiated. He was sorry that the right hon. Gentleman did not admit in his speech that there was a case for further inquiry.
  The right hon. Gentleman had laid on the Table a belated Blue-book. As to his point that the information had only just been received, whose fault was that He had been in communication with the Colonial Secretary on this matter so long ago as February last, and he wanted to ask why the right hon. Gentleman had not given the House some information on this matter before Easter? The Blue-book was dated December. Even the telegram quoted by the Colonial Secretary from Lord Milner was dated

  619
  February. The hon. Member for Oldham stated that the right hon. Member for West Birmingham had done one very good thing—he had diminished flogging throughout British territories. He had done something more. The right hon. Gentleman had sent out Sir Richard Martin to investigate the treatment of natives by the British South Africa Company in Rhodesia, and his Report had done much good. The Colonial Secretary ought, following the example of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, to send out some person of high position and character, who was free of all assocition with these mine-owners, who were not all our countrymen, to investigate the matter of the treatment of the labourers from top to bottom. They were all glad to hear that the terrible mortality was being reduced, out they ought to have a good deal more information as to what was going on in the mines of the Transvaal. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman regarded this question of labour with sentiments of humanity, but there were men on the spot who did not govern their conduct by such sentiments, and who regarded the natives as mere beasts of burden, hewers of wood, and drawers of water. One of them said—"They are hewers of wood and drawers of water and as nearly beasts of burden as it was possible to make a human animal into." He was there as a Member of the House of Commons speaking the sentiments of his constituents when he said they could not limit the aspirations of human beings in that way. Man was not made for gold; gold was made for man. The right hon. Gentleman in one of his interesting dissertations had declared that men were better than minerals. That was a very happy phrase and that was the spirit they wanted to see animating the Government in this matter. They wanted that wherever the British flag was flying such conditions of labour should be imposed as would reflect credit on the country and the Empire. He feared the right hon. Gentleman hardly even yet appreciated the gravity of the question and the feelings of his countrymen, irrespective of Party, as to the treatment of the natives in the gold mines, and there-fore he rejoiced that the Motion had been brought forward, and he would go into
  620
  the Lobby in favour of it with the greatest pleasure.
  MR. JOHN STROYANsaid that having been associated with South Africa for a quarter of a century, and having lived in the country long before gold was known in it, he felt it his duty to make a few remarks. Quite unintentionally the position of the Witwatersrand Labour Association had been put before the House in a misleading light. It had been represented as a huge trust, an association to make money out of trafficking in the natives. It was nothing of the sort. The Native Labour Association was nothing more or less than a department of the Chamber of Mines, and was maintained at very considerable cost to the mines. He knew that the Native Labour Department had a good many enemies, and that they left no stone unturned to discredit it and to mislead the public as to its functions. Those enemies were the former native agents, touts who had been displaced by the association and who in consequence were now trying to disparage it. As a matter of fact it became absolutely necessary to form this association, so that the native should be honestly treated. Generally speaking, he asserted that the native received fairplay, and was told exactly what his wages and treatment would be. They had heard a good deal about the deplorable mortality but he was glad to find that the native mortality was being lessened, and the Native Labour Department had done most excellent service in this direction. He himself had seen thousands of natives come down to the mines for the winter from Portuguese territory and even from further north. They arrived in a half-starved miserable condition in the middle of the winter season, which rendered them—coming as they did from tropical climes—peculiarly susceptible to pneumonia. Hence the severe death-rate among them. But the Native Labour Department had arranged for half-way houses and shelters for the natives on their way to and from the Rand. Food and shelter were provided, so as to enable the natives to arrive in good condition on the Rand, thereby making them less susceptible to attacks from pneumonia than had been the case in the past.

  621
  He had known South Africa for twenty-five years; until eight or ten years ago he was intimately associated with mining work on the Rand, and was managing director of mines which employed large numbers of labourers. Their greatest trouble was to get natives and then to retain them; but it was an element of self-interest with those connected with the mines to see that the native was well treated. The native was like a child; if ho were discontented and considered that ho was being badly treated no amount of money would tempt him to stay in the mines. The mines were managed by British and American engineers, and he had yet to learn that the Briton was less humane abroad than he was in this country. The greatest care was also taken in the selection of the compound manager, who, among his varied qualifications, was expected to know the different native languages and customs. The compound manager was invariably an English colonist born and brought up in South Africa. It was essential that a mine should have a good name among the natives and it was equally necessary to also have a good man. If he treated them badly, or was unpopular with them, he was not allowed to remain long in the mine. They had heard a great deal about Hogging and ill-treatment, but he had never known of a case of flogging on the Hand. On the contrary, there were hospitals where the natives were treated with every attention and kindness, and on his visit to Witwatersrand last year he was pleased to see what immense progress had been made in rendering the condition of the people more comfortable. They were excellently housed, and when sick were well nursed. They had heard many fairy tales in the past and he anticipated they would hear them in the future. But he had thought that the improved travelling facilities which now existed would have been more taken advantage of by the general public to see for themselves what was going on in South Africa. Many people had, indeed, gone out to that country during and since the war but he certainly was disappointed that the actual position of the mining industry was not better understood in this country.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid the hon. Member had painted a very rosy
  622
  picture of the mines in the Transvaal. Apparently he had not read the Blue-book.
  MR. JOHN STROYAN: I have only just got it.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: Then it is all the more astonishing he should make the statements he did.
  MR. JOHN STROYAN: I spoke from personal experience.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid that might be so, but the hon. Member's statements flew in the face of every page of the Blue-book. The hon. Member had told them that self-interest—if no higher motive—induced the mine-owners to treat the labourers with humanity and decency, yet by the Labour Ordinance they were going to import Chinese, and would thus remove the motive of self interest by rendering them independent of the Kaffirs, whether they were contented or not. No doubt many of the mine-owners and managers in the Transvaal were honestly desirous to do all in their power to improve the conditions under which the Kaffirs worked in the mines, but the fact remained that the efforts hitherto made in that direction had proved quite ineffective, and there was a damning indictment to be found on every page of the Blue-book which had been circulated that day. The Colonial Secretary had stated that the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight had shown a glimpse of fairness in quoting the statement of Mr. Brownlee, but what would be thought of the fairness of the Colonial Secretary in reading passages from the Blue-book and yet omitting from them vital sentences because they did not suit his purpose, which he only subsequently read when called upon to do so by interruptions from that side. And the right hon. Gentleman had quoted the evidence of a headman—Jerry Bangani—who was a labour recruiter himself. This man, since the outbreak of the war, had supplied some 900 labourers to the De Beers mines and for other works, and he had admitted that since the cessation of hostilities he had failed in his endeavours to obtain labourers for the Rand mines, because the natives were afraid of bad treatment and bad

  623
  food and of the method in which they were crowded in railway trucks to be sent to the mines.
  MR. LYTTELTON: If I had read that passage I should have thought it right to read it also to the House. But this debate came on suddenly, and I have not had time to read all the Blue-book.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUELgladly and fully accepted the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. But the fact remained that this man's evidence was the only evidence in the Book which gave unqualified praise to the conditions in the mines. Mr. Brownlee said that the treatment of the natives was generally good. Hut he declared that flogging was frequent and that compound managers were accustomed without trial to imprison native labourers. He also said that some of the hospitals were small and provided little comfort for the patients; that many natives were called upon to do thirty-two days' work for thirty days' pay: that they frequently did not get the pay that they were promised when they were enlisted. If that was treatment which was generally good what would be treatment which was "generally bad"? Then they had the evidence of Mr. Stamford, the magistrate, which was to the effect that inquiries had clearly established misrepresentations by labour agents as to wages, wrongful deductions, and an unintelligible system of calculating time. He added, "the wages paid are undoubtedly less than before the war," and that as long as the native could obtain more remunerative work elsewhere, the supply for the mines was not likely to be augmented. Other extracts from the Blue-book showed that the natives were not allowed one day's rest a week; that they wore bullied and thrashed by the Zulu police; that they were fined for small offences by subordinate white officials; that they were not allowed to go home when ill; and that they did not know the inspectors who were appointed to protect their interests. And a still more extraordinary passage was that in which it was stated that some of the natives, after serving a period in gaol, to which they had been sentenced by the stipendiary magistrates for a
  624
  trifling offence, were not granted passes to enable them to seek employment elsewhere, but their services were sold for a period of six months to any agent who liked to buy them, and the men were compelled to undertake labour contrary to their will and health. If this were true, forced labour was added to the sentence of imprisonment. He had, when going through the Blue-book, marked the passages giving evidence of cases of ill-treatment and on going through the Blue-book again he found that there was not a single page of the book, except the few devoted to formal statements of contracts, and so forth, which did not contain marked passages. Here there was an ample explanation as to why the mine-owners were unable to get sufficient labour: and he thought that the hon. Gentlemen who opposed the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman had been absolutely justified in their action. There was one matter the Blue-book did not deal with, and that was the question of ventilation. It was owing to the neglect of ventilation, the overcrowding of the compounds, and the insufficiency of the hospital accommodation, that the abnormally high death-rate was due. He wondered if the House realised that, if this death-rate applied to the new labourer as it did to the old out of every 10,000 Chinese only 6,000 would survive at the expiration of six years' period of service. If 4,000 troops out of 10,000 were slaughtered in a battle in the present, war it would be regarded as an unprecedented holocaust. Yet this was the death-rate to which men engaged in a peaceful industry were exposed. The mine-owners ought to put their house in order, then they would get labour enough. The policy of the Government was to save the mine-owners from the effects of their folly by introducing a fresh supply of labour. Rarely had a case been more; completely riddled by criticism and destroyed by facts than the case of the Government in this matter of Transvaal labour, and he thought that the disclosures they had heard that night had completed the work of exposure.
  MR. BELLsaid he wished to say a few words in support of the Motion. The answer of the Colonial Secretary had

  625
  not satisfied him. Like some other Members of the House, he was speaking without having seen the Blue-book which his lion, friend and the mover and seconder of the Motion had had the privilege of seeing; but the extracts they had read were sufficient to satisfy him, at any rate, that then; existed in the Transvaal a great deal of cruelty. The Colonial Secretary, in his reply, had not in any way denied the facts as stated by the mover and seconder. He had been surprised by what he had heard from both sides of the House during the course of the discussion, particularly from the hon. Member opposite, who defended the conditions in the Transvaal with an ability which almost inclined him to resign his position in this country and see if he could not get a job in the Transvaal. The hon. Member put such a glorious aspect upon labour in the Transvaal that it must be a great temptation to the people of this country. He himself, and several other speakers, had recognised that there was a great deal of human nature about the natives. He had been unable to discover that there was anything in the black man that was not contained in the white man in this country. It seemed to him that the natives were not bad trade-unionists after all. The chief complaint and grievance was that they refused to work for half the wages that, formerly were paid for the same kind of work, and if similar tactics were tried in this country it would be found that even a British workman would not accept a reduction of from 30 per cent, to 50 per cent, in his wages, in the manner in which the natives had been compelled to accept, and he was positive that he would not tolerate the treatment from employers here that was meted out by employers in the mines in South Africa. But the peculiarity of the whole statement of the case related to the Native Labour Association. He was very familiar with the Free Labour Association in this country. It was managed in exactly a similar way. The recruiting agents were paid so much per head for the number of hands that they were able to provide for the employers when a dispute existed. If there was anything that aroused him it was the exploiting of labour for the greed of profit. He had endeavoured, he endeavoured now, and he hoped he should continue to endeavour, to regard
  626
  and consider the claims and rights of employers equally as much as the claims and rights of labour in all questions he had to deal with; and he believed that he had been given some little credit for endeavouring to be fair in matters of this kind. Whilst he desired to do that which was fair between employer and workman he was bound to confess that any such conduct as that described in the Blue-book would be the very kind of conduct that would arouse, his spirit, and lead him to favour a rising up against any such treatment by employers in this country, even if such action entailed the loss of the whole of the funds of the trade-unions. As the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary had frequently referred to "our fellow-countrymen in the Transvaal," he supposed they must regard the natives as their fellow-country-men as much as some of these Rand mine-owners, to whom the right hon. Gentleman also referred as fellow-countrymen. He was ready to stand up in defence of fairplay and justice for his fellow-countrymen, whether black, white, or yellow, whether Church of England, Catholic, or Nonconformists, in this or any other part of the Empire. They had made sacrifices in order that these people for whom they were speaking that night should be made fellow-countrymen, and having made those sacrifices both in money and flesh and blood, this House ought to go out of its way to defend and protect them from injustice and hardships such as they complained of.
  He observed from statements made from one hon. Member that when the evidence was collected from some of the labourers it was obtained in the presence of the employer. That was a very improper way of collecting evidence. He knew from experience in this country that with evidence obtained in that way, however impartial or however fair the person might be soliciting it, or however fair the employer might be, however anxious he might be that the men should have free and full liberty to say what they desired to say, yet with evidence obtained in such a way there was a suspicion and a tendency on the part of the labourer not to say that which he desired to say owing to the presence of his employer. Whilst they found that in this country, how much

  627
  more likely was it that there would be a tendency of that sort on the part of the men subject to such ill-treatment as the natives were on the Rand. He hoped that the discussion that night would have the desired effect, and that the Colonial Secretary would not stay his hand until he had put a stop absolutely and completely to any such treatment as had been referred to. The manner in which the contracts of these men were broken by the employers was bad enough; but to be treated as it was reported they were treated, was unfair and very unjust; and he thought it was not very much to the credit, if it was not to the shame, of the British House of Commons to tolerate it. He was bound to refer to a statement of the Colonial Secretary with regard to his desire that the debate should not take place before the Blue-book was published. The right hon. Gentleman had read a telegram, dated the 27th February, and he was particularly struck with the fact that the House had not been acquainted with that telegram. That could not be on the ground that there was not sufficient time. He understood also that the Blue-book which his hon. friends had been quoting from that night was dated last December. He did not know how long it was since the Colonial Secretary obtained possession of a copy but presumably the right hon. Gentleman would be about the first person in this country to be supplied with a copy of it. If such were the case, there was no reason at all why the House should not have been in possession of the whole of the facts long before now. He presumed there must have been a reason for that and the reason was that they wanted the other discussion with regard to labour in South Africa cleared out of the way before giving the House all the facts contained in the Blue-book they were now discussing. That being the case he held that the hon. Member who brought on the Motion was perfectly justified in doing so; and he hoped the House would mark its feeling in regard to this matter by supporting it.
  MR. SEELYsaid the Colonial Secretary complained that the Motion was not reasonable, as it was brought forward before the full facts and figures were before the House. The real reason for
  628
  urgency was this: the Motion dealt with facts that had only just come to the knowledge of the House with regard to these labourers. The Colonial Secretary was proposing to bring a large number of men 10,000 miles across the sea to work these mines, and the question how they were going to be treated when they got there was one which affected not only their health and comfort but the honour and good name of this country. The facts brought out did establish a considerable prima facie case as to there being grave doubts whether the natives were properly treated. The facts quoted by the Colonial Secretary hardly supported his own case, and it seemed to him that the wisest course for the right; hon. Gentleman to adopt was to delay the I importation of these Chinese labourers.
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is now entering on a question which is not before the House. He can only discuss the actual treatment of the natives in this particular mine.
  MR. SEELYsaid he wished to point out the reason for urgency.
  MR. SPEAKER: That was a matter which I and the House had to consider when I put to the House the question of leave. When that Question has been put to the House no question of urgency can afterwards arise.
  MR. SEELYsaid he agreed with the Speaker's ruling. The gravest element in the whole question related to the death-rate of these labourers. According to the Colonial Secretary the death-rate had been 57 per 1,000, but it had been reduced to 35. But, according to information his hon. relative possessed, the average death-rate was 80 per 1,000 per annum. Speaking as one of the largest mine-owners in the country, he said that such a death-rate was a discredit to the engineers and those who were concerned in the industry on the Witwatersrand, and it was the duty of the Colonial Secretary to see not only that everything was done to remedy such a state of things by engineering care and skill, but that no man was brought to these mines and compounds without full knowledge of the conditions under which they would live, and that they should be told that their chance of life was only twelve

  629
  short years. The seriousness of the question must be obvious to every hon. Member, and it should be the duty of the House to insist on the Government dealing with the grave matters which had been disclosed.
  MR. CREMERsaid he understood the hon. Member for West Perthshire to state in his personal experience that none of the practices referred to by the hon. Member who introduced the Motion existed during the
  time he resided in the Transvaal. He wished to know whether the hon. Gentle man's experience was recent or not.
  MR. JOHN STROYANsaid he was referring to eight years ago. He had, however, visited the Rand three times since then and found the same condition of affairs as he had described.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 150; Noes, 213. (Division List No. 115.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Dowd, John

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  O'Malley, William

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Mara, James

  Allen, Charles P.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Asher, Alexander

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Parrot L William

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchhill

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Barry, R. (Cork, S.)

  Hammond, John

  Price, Robert John

  Bell, Richard

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Priestley, Arthur

  Black, Alexander William

  Harwood, George

  Rea, Russell

  Boland, John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Brigg, John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Burns, John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roche, John

  Burt, Thomas

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Caldwell, James

  Joicey, Sir James

  Rose, Charles Day

  Cameron, Robert

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Joyce, Michael

  Shackleton, David James

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Kilbride, Denis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Sheehy, David

  Crean, Eugene

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leamy, Edmund

  Slack, John Bamford

  Crombie, John William

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Soares, Finest J.

  Crooks, William

  Leng, Sir John

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants

  Cullinan J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sullivan, Donal

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lough, Thomas

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Lundon, W.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Delany, William

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Tomkinson, James

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Ure, Alexander

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Crae, George

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Kean, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ellice, Capt EC (S Andrew's Bghs

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Mooney, John J.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Emmott, Alfred

  Murphy, John

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Young, Samuel

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Norman, Henry

  Fenwick, Charles

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Ferguson, R, C. Munro (Leith)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

  Major Seely and Mr. Churchill.

  Ffrench, Peter

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Arrol, Sir William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Balfour, Rt. Hon A.J. (Manchr

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Pym, C. Guy

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Randles, John S.

  Balhurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Heath, James (Staffords, N.W)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Helder, Augustus

  Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

  Bond, Edward

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Renwick, George

  Brassey, Albert

  Hoare, Sir Samue

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hope J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Ridley, S. Forde. (Bethnal Green

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Bull, William James

  Howard. John (Kent Faversham

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Butcher, John George

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Campbell, J. H.M. (Dublin Univ.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Rothschild, Hon Lionel Walter

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A. (Worc.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Charrington, Spencer

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Kerr, John

  Scott. Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Keswick, William

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Labouchere, Henry

  Smith, James parker (Lanarks.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Spear, John Ward

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Stone, Benjamin

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stroyan, John

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lone, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hon Sir Jose ph C.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Doughty, George

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tuff, Charles

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Duke Henry Edward

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Vincent, Col Sir C.E.H (Sheffield

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Walrond, Rt Hon. Sir William H.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund, Lyne

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n

  Williams. Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Forster, Henry William

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S.W.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wilson-Todd. Sir W. H. (Yorksh.

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Gardner, Ernest

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Moore, William

  Worsley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby (Salop

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Morton, Arthur H. Alymer

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Younger, William

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Gretton, John

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Adjourned at fourteen minutes after Twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—Baker Street and Waterloo Railway. The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
Standing Orders Committee. Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the City of London (Central Criminal Court House) Bill ought to be dispensed with. Read, and agreed to.
Metropolitan District Railway Bill [H.L.]. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Great Yarmouth Corporation Bill [H.L.]. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported, with Amendments.
Preston Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]; Whitby Gas Bill; Bournemouth Corporation (Tramways) Bill [H.L.]; Leicestershire and Warwickshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Cardiff Railway Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Ryde Gas Bill. Reported, with an Amendment.
Newcastle and Gateshead Water Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Bill on being reported should be referred to the Chairman of Committees in order that certain proofs and consents may be given in respect thereof; read, and agreed to. Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments, and re-committed.
Clyde Valley Electrical Power Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Wellington (Somerset) Gas Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Barnet District Gas and Water Bill; Donegal Railway Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
Victoria University of Manchester Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Hutchesons' Hospital and Hutchesons' Educational Trust Bill [H.L.]; South Shields Gas Bill; Chippenham Gas Bill; Sheppy Gas Bill; North Staffordshire Railway Bill; London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Aberdare be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Lathom; read, and agreed to.
Metropolitan Common Scheme (Hilling-don East) Provisional Order Bill; Metropolitan Common Scheme (Farnborough): Provisional Order Bill. Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

PETITIONS.
  WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (METRIC SYSTEM) BILL [H.L.]
  Petitions in favour of; of West Ham Corporation; Edinburgh Parish Council; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  JOURNAL COMMITTEE.
  Report from, That the One hundred and thirty-fifth Volume of the Journals (3rd Edward VII., 1903), with an Index, was ready for delivery; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and the said Volume ordered to be delivered in the same manner as the preceding Volumes of the Journals have been delivered.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 3151. China (Hankow).
  No. 3152. Spain (Bilbao).

  ANKYLOSTOMIASIS.
  Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by A. E. Baycott, Esq., M.B., B.Sc, on the diagnosis of ankylostoma infection, with special reference to the examination of the blood.

  MOTOR CARS.
  Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the President of the Local Government Board to inquire with regard to regulations for the purposes of Section 12 of the Motor Car Act, 1903, together with Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee.
  Part I. Report.
  Part II. Minutes of Evidence, Appendix, and Index to Evidence.

  RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
  Returns of accidents and casualties as reported to the Board of Trade by the several railway companies in the United Kingdom during the year ended 31st December, 1903, in pursuance of the Regulation of Railways Act (1871); together with reports of the inspecting officers, assistant inspecting officers, and sub-inspectors of the Railway Department to the Board of Trade upon certain accidents which were inquired into. Part II. Reports on Accidents.

  FISHERIES (SCOTLAND).
  Twenty-second Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland, being for the year 1903. Part I. General Report.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury minute, dated 29th April, 1904, declaring that George Hadfield, fitter, marker-out, Royal Carriage Department, War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his Department.

  PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
  Treasury minute, dated 26th April, 1904, authorising the sale of a portion of foreshore near the old harbour of Dunleary, not required for the purposes of Kingstown Harbour.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (METRIC SYSTEM) BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee (with the Proceedings of the Committee and Appendix) made, and to be printed. (No. 70.). Minutes of Evidence laid upon the Table and to be delivered out. Bill reported, with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday the 13th instant; and to be printed as amended. (No. 71.)
  SALE OF INTOXICANTS TO CHILDREN BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  OUTDOOR RELIEF (FRIENDLY SOCIETIES) BILL [H.L.]
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, before the Order of the Day for the Third Reading is read, I rise to call your Lordships' attention to the fact that this Bill, which has originated in this House, is undoubtedly a breach of the privileges of the House of Commons, in as much as it contemplates a charge on the rates and is therefore financial in its character. If your Lordships read it a third time to-day and send it down to the other House, the fact that it is a breach of their privileges would be notified to the Commons by Mr. Speaker, and then, the question of privilege arising, the Bill would be laid aside. If, on the other hand, your Lordships rejected it because it was a breach of the privileges of the other House, it would prevent a Bill on the same subject—and I understand there are two such Bills now before the House of Commons—from being passed through your Lordships' House this session. What I would suggest to Lord Monkswell, who is in charge of the Bill, is that, in order to avoid this risk, he should either postpone its further progress until a Bill of the same character introduced in the House of Commons comes up to your Lordships, or that he should now move the adjournment of the debate on the Third Reading. By the adoption of either of these courses the risk of imperilling this Bill, for which I personally intend to vote, will be avoided.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack for the kindly way

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  in which he has treated me in the matter of this Bill, and I should be very glad to take his advice if there was not, in my opinion, another method of procedure. My attention had been called to the fact that this Bill would probably—I do not say undoubtedly—be considered a breach of the privileges of the other House, and the way in which I propose to deal with it, subject, of course, to anything the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack may say, is by the insertion of a privileged Amendment at the end of the Bill to this effect—
  "Provided that no charge is thereby imposed on the rates."
  In this I am following precisely the same course that was adopted by His Majesty's Government in the matter of the Education Bill. The noble and learned Earl will no doubt remember that on that occasion a right rev. Prelate moved an Amendment to increase the grants to the voluntary schools—an Amendment which deliberately set aside the judgment of the House of Commons, which had expressed the opinion that this particular money should not go to the voluntary schools. On the question of privilege, it was a very strong thing indeed for your Lordships' House to carry an Amendment of that kind, which was known to be absolutely contrary to the vote of a large majority in the other House. What did the Government do on that occasion? The Duke of Norfolk moved an Amendment to insert at the end of the clause—
  "But this obligation on the local education authority shall throw no additional charge on any public fund."
  Of course, that was not intended to be a serious Amendment. Nobody took it to be such, and Sir William Harcourt, in the House of Commons, described it as a nonsensical Amendment. But, nonsensical or not, it prevailed for its purpose, and the House of Commons not only did not regard the right rev. Prelate's Amendment as a breach of privilege, but they absolutely adopted your Lordships' view by a large majority, and passed the provision—a purely financial provision—as altered in your Lordships' House. The Amendment which was then moved by the Duke of Norfolk was not on the Paper of your Lordships' House,
  498
  but was submitted at the last moment without notice. When objection was taken on that occasion by my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition on the ground that a Third Reading Amendment ought to have been on the Paper, the noble and learned Earl the Lord Chancellor said—
  "This Amendment does not really and cannot in itself affect the clause, but it allows the question to be discussed in the House of Commons."
  then the noble Earl went on to say—
  "But for this Amendment, the Amendment already inserted might be rejected without discussion at all. In that way I think the Amendment of the Duke of Norfolk does not come within the ordinary rule about Third Reading Amendments, because it is one of those which we almost always put in at the end of every Bill when the question of finance arises."
  If His Majesty's Government should come to the conclusion that they were wrong in supporting the Duke of Norfolk's Amendment, and that in point of fact we did commit a breach of the privileges of the House of Commons, I should not demur to the view of the Government, and if they consider that the difficulty which the Lord Chancellor has suggested stands in the way of this Bill cannot be cured by a privileged Amendment, then I shall no doubt think it best, in the interests of the Bill, to withdraw it or adjourn the debate.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I would point out to the noble Lord that the two cases are entirely different. This Bill deals with rates which have been voted for one definite purpose, and if you were to strike out that which deals with rates you would strike out the whole Bill.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I do not wish to enter at any length into this argument, which is an extremely difficult one, but I would venture to point out that we really have nothing at this moment before the House. I should suggest that when the Third Reading is called on, my noble friend should move the adjournment of the debate. We could then consider more fully the whole position.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  LORD MONKSWELL: I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.
  Moved, That the debate stand adjourned.—(Lord Monkswell.)
  On Question. Motion agreed to.

  OPEN SPACES BILL [H.L.]
  [Second Reading.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, although this is a bulky Bill, it is really a measure only of consolidation and to secure uniformity of procedure. With that assurance I think I may ask your Lordships to read it a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Onslow.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  MACEDONIA.
  EARL SPENCERrose to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the independence from interference by the Turkish Government of the European officers appointed to reorganise and direct the gendarmerie in Macedonia has been duly secured, and what powers have been placed in their hands, and what progress has been made by the civil agents appointed by the Austrian and Russian Governments to supervise the improvements in the civil administration of the Macedonian provinces which have been promised. He said: My Lords, this matter, which is one of great importance, has already occupied the attention of both Houses of Parliament during the present session; but I think the time has come when it is desirable to get an authoritative declaration from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs as to the existing state of affairs in Macedonia. We have had two discussions upon this matter in your Lordships' House, and on both those
  500
  occasions the noble Marquess made exceedingly important statements. What had happened at that time was that two of the great European Powers, with, no doubt, the consent, and I suppose the approval, of the other great Powers, were proceeding to carry out, and tried to carry out, certain important reforms in Macedonia. Those reforms were intended to improve the ordinary administration of law and justice and to effect a reorganisation of the constabulary. At that time there was considerable hope that the reforms would be effected, and if they had been effected we might have looked forward to peace being maintained in Macedonia and to an end being put to the disastrous troubles there.
  The scheme of reform of the administration was accompanied by a proposal that two European civil assistants should be appointed to see that these reforms were properly carried out. I think this proposal was made at the instance of the noble Marquess; and I am sorry to think that he made it an alternative to a much greater and, as it seems to me, a much better proposal—namely, that the government of Macedonia should be under the control of one Christian Governor. From what we hear of the work of these two civil assistants, I am afraid that very little has been done. So far as we know the two civil assistants have remained where they landed and have been altogether useless. With regard to the question of the gendarmerie, which is exceedingly important, it was proposed that a European officer should become the head of the gendarmerie; that he should have the complete control, as we understood it, of the police in Macedonia, and that he should have sufficient power to carry out his duties. It was a long time before anything was done, but after a time a distinguished Italian General—General de Giorgis—was appointed, and he proceeded to Constantinople. There he remained for many weeks endeavouring to get the arrangements for his administration carried out. After a time he succeeded to a certain extent, and went to Macedonia to commence his duty.
  We learn that the proposals that were intended to be carried out have really

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  been almost nullified, or at any rate so minimised that it will be impossible for the Inspector-General to carry out his work effectively. First of all we were told that sixty European officers were to be appointed to assist him, to be under his control, and to be responsible for the administration of justice in various parts of the country. But we are told that the Sultan has, up to the present time, refused to grant these sixty officers. He has only agreed to find twenty or twenty-five officers to work under General de Giorgis. If that be the case, it really looks as if the whole of this scheme has broken down, for twenty or twenty-five officers is quite an insufficient number for the administration of a district containing nearly 20,000 square miles. I should like to know, further, whether the Inspector-General has effective power. We are told in another place that he has the power to order and control the European officers under him, but we do not hear whether the European officers under him have the power to order and control the Turkish officers and men under them. It seems to be a prevalent idea that they, and even the Inspector-General, will be mere reporting officers and will really have no effective control over the police and the administration of justice.
  I should like to know whether we are correctly informed, or whether the noble Marquess can say that this scheme will be effective in its operation. We are told, and we know, that this scheme which Austria and Russia were to carry out is the minimum that would be acceptable. On previous occasions the noble Marquess has made some very important statements on this matter. On the first occasion he said—
  "We have made it perfectly plain to all concerned that, if these schemes should fail to produce the desired result, we reserve to ourselves entire liberty to take into consideration and to propose alternative and more far-reaching measures."
  Speaking on the Motion of my noble friend Lord Newton, on 15th February, he said—
  "If the gendarmerie can be reorganised it is not too much to hope that the people of the Balkan Peninsula who are watching these events with so much anxiety may be re-assured and may be content to abstain from any action calculated to produce a fresh crisis at the beginning of the spring. I may be too
  502
  sanguine, but I do earnestly hope that the experiment now being tried, to which we are to some extent committed, will be given a fair trial, and if, having received such a trial, it fails to produce the result we anticipate, then I think noble Lords will be amply justified in asking the Government to carry out the pledges they have given and calling upon them to put forward more drastic and more thorough measures of reform."
  What will the noble Marquess now say? I fear from what we hear that these schemes have failed. If they have failed, we may call upon him to fulfil his pledges and to take some further steps in order to secure peace and quiet in these districts. It is of immense importance that this should be done now. We have passed the trying winter, when it is almost impossible to carry on warfare, and now is the time when there is great fear that there may be a recurrence of those terrible encounters which resulted in so much bloodshed during last year—encounters in which many lives were lost, great cruelty was perpetrated on the unfortunate inhabitants of the country, villages were destroyed, and all the horrors of civil war were present. I fear there is now great alarm lest these encounters should recur. The only hope is that the population may rely on these reforms being carried out effectively, that they may rely on what the Powers may do.
  I think it was said in another place that it was evident in the country that there was an inclination on the part of the population to rely upon the assurances and the sincerity of the European Powers instead of exposing themselves once more needlessly to the perils and sufferings of a perfectly useless struggle. That is an important statement; and I cannot help thinking, from what I hear, that there is a great deal of force and truth in it—that the population do rely upon the Great Powers, and rely a great deal more upon the influence and interest of this country than, possibly, upon those of any other country. This throws a heavy responsibility on all the Great Powers, and among them, no doubt, on Great Britain and the noble Marquess who so ably presides over the Foreign Office. I most earnestly and sincerely hope, in the face of the difficulties which exist in these districts, the terrible suffering that is going on, and the obstinate determination of the Sultan to refuse these reforms

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  or any change of government unless he is absolutely pressed, that the noble Marquess will consult the Great Powers and see whether they cannot support and give greater effect to the mandate which has been issued and received by Russia and Austria, and really bring pressure to bear on the Sultan in order that these reforms in Macedonia may take place.
  LORD NEWTON: My Lords, as the noble Earl has referred to observations which I previously made on this question, perhaps I may be permitted to interpose for a few minutes in the discussion. The noble Earl has put upon the Paper a Question which, without usurping the functions of the Foreign Secretary, I should like to have the privilege of answering myself. The noble Earl asks what progress has been made by the civil agents appointed by the Austrian and Russian Governments. To that question I reply, without the slightest hesitation, that no progress whatever has been made, and I do not see any prospect of any progress being made by them in the future. These two gentlemen, who, by the way, represent the collective wisdom of Europe, have been established for something like four months in Salonika. They have never left that town. They are the objects of the mingled pity and contempt of the Europeans in the neighbourhood, and, as I said before, I do not think there is any prospect of their discharging any more useful work than they have accomplished hitherto. I may add that it is a source of perpetual and never-ending astonishment to the inhabitants of those regions that the two civil agents take implicitly for granted everything that is told them by Hilmi Pasha, and never take the slightest trouble to verify the information. So much for the civil agents.
  With reference to the general situation, I rather gather from the remarks of the noble Earl that he thinks that everything can be put right if sufficient pressure is put upon the Turkish Government. I would like to remind the noble Earl and the House that this work has practically been taken out of the hands of the Turkish Government, and has been delegated by Europe to the Austrian and Russian Governments. I agree with the
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  noble Earl that their action so far has been as nearly as possible a complete failure, although the high-sounding reforms promised under the so-called Murzsteg Programme have dwindled into an emasculated scheme for the reform of the gendarmerie. Even that particular portion of the reforms has been so successfully emasculated by the obstruction of the Turkish Government, and by the apathy of the Austrian and Russian Governments, that I gather it is not worth very much at the present moment.
  One instance which is not altogether devoid of humour may bring home to your Lordships some sense of the obstruction practised with regard to the gendarmerie officers. The British delegate, who happened to be the Military Attaché at Vienna, was appointed by our Government either at the end of last year or at the beginning of January. His Majesty's Government were laudably anxious to be first in the field. This gentleman's presence was so urgently desired in the interior of Macedonia that he was telegraphed for to come immediately, and he had, in consequence of this urgent summons, to throw over the Emperor of Austria, with whom he was engaged to dine that day. That officer, who arrived in Constantinople in the beginning of January, was detained there till the middle of April. That will give the House a fair impression of the delay that is taking place with regard to this matter.
  I do not like to destroy agreeable illusions. I observe that it is generally taken for granted in official circles—I am not speaking particularly of British official circles—that everything is going to end in a favourable manner, and the foundation for this appears to consist largely in the fact that what is called the Turco-Bulgarian Agreement has been arrived at, and that the gendarmerie officers have arrived. As for the Turco-Bulgarian Agreement, in my opinion it is not worth more than the paper it is written on, because I am firmly convinced that neither side intends to adhere to it. I do not desire to appear either as a pessimist or an alarmist, but in the course of the journey which I took recently in European Turkey I was enabled to gauge the opinion of almost every section, and in my travels I only

  505
  came across two persons who might fairly be described as optimists. One of these persons was Hilmi Pasha, the Inspector-General of the Macedonian Provinces, and the other was the Sultan himself. I am prepared to admit that these are important personages and that their opinion ought not to be disregarded, but at the same time it would hardly do to consider them absolutely impartial authorities on the question. On the other hand, I found that every single independent person whom I came across, with always the exception of Austrian and Russian agents, took an extremely gloomy view of the future, not only because of the incapacity and the unwillingness of the Turkish Government, but because of the profound distrust which is universally felt with regard to the attitude and intentions of the Austrian and Russian Governments, and I must say I see nothing whatever surprising in this view. Can anybody mention one single solitary instance in which either of these two Governments have shown the slightest desire to improve the condition of Turkey, either in Europe or in Asia? On the contrary, everybody knows that it has been the object of one of these Powers at all events—namely, Russia—to weaken the Turkish Government and to keep the country in as unsound a condition as is possible, with very obvious objects.
  The situation in what we call Macedonia, which, in official circles, is looked upon as favourable, is, as a matter of fact, very little better than it was a year ago. The state of that country is very little removed from a state of war at the present moment. It is full of unpaid, and, in many instances, demoralised troops; every yard of railway has to be guarded by soldiers; there are thousands of unfortunate people whose houses have been burned, and who have got nothing to live upon and no place in which to live; and there are thousands of refugees outside the country who are supported by charity. An amnesty has, I understand, just been proclaimed, but the result of an amnesty in that country is that nearly everybody who is let out of gaol joins an insurgent band on the first opportunity. What is most important of all, the Musssulman population is in a dangerously excited condition. It would
  506
  not take very much, I am afraid, to provoke a massacre on an extensive scale and nobody can say what a massacre would lead to at the present moment. It would lead to a wide-spread insurrection, and to a war Between Bulgaria and Turkey, and there is no one who can say what that would eventually develop into. I say that no one who travels in that part of the world at the present moment can fail to realise that there is in that country the typical lull before the storm, and that it is only a question of how soon the storm is going to break out.
  What are the guarantees against an explosion of the kind I have mentioned? So far as I can see, the sole guarantee consists in the presence of the foreign officers, whose functions will be defined to us this afternoon. When I was in what is called the disturbed districts, I was assured on all sides that the one and only chance of preventing a disturbance was the prompt appearance of foreign officers dressed in foreign uniforms, who should be independent of the Sultan and really possess executive powers. Even the presence of these foreign officers may lead to considerable difficulty. The Austrian officers are going to be sent to the one district in which the inhabitants, both Mussulmans and Christians, are firmly determined they will not have them if they can possibly prevent it. In face of this fact, this particular area has been allotted to the Austrian officers, and I shall be surprised if their appearance in these regions is not followed by unfortunate results.
  There is one satisfactory feature upon which I may touch. Nothing surprised me more when I was in that country than the universal confidence which appeared to be felt in British policy. It was a most agreeable surprise to me, because I never experienced anything of the kind before; but the fact remains that both Mussulmans and Christians do feel the most implicit confidence in the intentions of the British Government. They realise that we, at all events, have got clean hands in the matter and do not desire to derive any material advantage from the situation. Therefore, whatever may happen to the other foreign officers, I think I am safe in prophesying

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  that the British officers will meet with a cordial reception wherever they may find themselves. I gather, not only from the speech of the noble Earl but from speeches made by other persons, that it is considered that this country should take some more decided action in the matter. I sometimes wonder whether gentlemen who take that view quite appreciate the difficulty in which His Majesty's Government find themselves, and I do not think sufficient justice has been done to the persistent efforts which have been made by the noble Marquess the Foreign Minister and his representatives abroad in order to secure a better state of things.
  I will go so far as to say that almost everything good which has been effected has been due almost solely to the action of the noble Marquess and of the British Ambassador at Constantinople, Sir Nicholas O'Conor. I have said that our hands are clean in this matter; our policy is directed solely from disinterested, and, I should say, humanitarian motives. I am not going to assert that other nations are less humanitarian in their sympathies than we are, but at the same time this is the only country which allows its foreign policy to be dictated, or even influenced, by humanitarian considerations; and the difficulty in the way of His Majesty's Government adopting an energetic attitude on this particular question is that there is no likelihood, or very little likelihood, of their being supported by any other Government. The noble Marquess is not in a position to admit what I say, but your Lordships may take it from me that my assertion is practically true. I say that we, with the exception of the French, are the only people whose hands are clean in this matter, and who do not seek to obtain material advantages from the present situation, and everyone will recognise the extreme difficulty which the French Government would have in acting with us at the present moment.
  With regard to the future, I should deprecate isolated action on our part. I believe there are some individuals who would like to urge that the British Fleet should be sent to Salonika or somewhere else for the purpose of terrifying the Turkish Government. I believe the
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  results would be much worse if we attempted anything of that sort than they are likely to be under present circumstances; but I would venture to suggest to the noble Marquess that this scheme of entrusting the pacification and amelioration of this country to the Austrians and the Russians, if it has not broken down already, is bound to break down before long. It is an arrangement which cannot work. Although everybody approved of it at the time, it is obvious to me, after what I have seen, that it is impossible that it can ever be anything else than a merely temporary and unsatisfactory arrangement. What I do very respectfully suggest to the noble Marquess is this, that the question is one of such extreme complication and difficulty, there are so many nationalities and different questions involved, that it cannot be solved by the rough and ready plan which has been adopted. In my opinion, the only way in which the situation could be adequately dealt with is by means of a conference before which the respective interests of all these different nationalities could be fairly considered, and, what is no less important, the interests of the Mussulman population would be considered as well as those of the Christian population. I believe that in the adoption of this principle of a conference or congress the ultimate solution of this difficulty lies; and I urge this, in conclusion, that I firmly believe that if an opportunity were obtained of proposing a conference, and if the assent of Europe could be obtained to the conference, it would not only have the best possible effect in the future, but it would have the immediate effect of restraining revolutionary bodies and preventing them from rising, for they would then know that European diplomacy was really in earnest in desiring to do something for them.
  THE SECRETARY of STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Earl will be content with the answer which my noble friend so I kindly volunteered on my behalf, but it, is perhaps necessary that I should supplement it by a few words. With some of the observations he addressed to your Lordships I certainly do not disagree.

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  Let me say at once that he will not find me in the ranks of the incurably optimistic officials of whom he has spoken. I am, on the contrary, one of those who regard with great apprehension the condition of things in the Balkan Peninsula, and think, with my noble friend, that we have too much reason to be disappointed with the progress which has up to the present time been achieved in the carrying out of the scheme of reforms; I feel, as he does, that if the rate of progress is not accelerated we shall be confronted with a situation giving rise to the gravest anxiety.
  In one or two of my noble friend's observations I certainly did not concur, I do not, for example, agree with him when he tells your Lordships that the intervention of Austria and Russia has had the effect of relieving the Porte from all responsibility in this matter. I do not think that is the case. We all know that, however promising may be the measures of reform put forward for the acceptance of the Turkish Government, and however; readily those reforms may he accepted, there is always left a great deal of room for the exercise of those arts of delay and obstruction in which, I am afraid, it must be said, Turkish officials are usually found to excel. Again, I do not agree with my noble friend in his belief that the agreement which has been concluded between Turkey and Bulgaria is not worth the paper on which it is written. In my belief that agreement is likely, at any rate, to lead to some useful results; and it will have this result, amongst others, that it will greatly strengthen the hands of the Bulgarian Government in, checking the insurrectionary movements which have used Bulgarian territory as a base of operations, and which the Bulgarian authorities have in the past had great difficulty in restraining.
  My noble friend made, not for the first time, a complimentary reference, which I greatly appreciate, to the efforts, of His Majesty's Government, and particularly to our representative at Constantinople, in promoting the cause of reform. My Lords, let me say that so far as Sir Nicholas O'Conor is concerned that compliment appears to me to be well deserved. It is impossible to exaggerate the value of the continued and
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  strenuous efforts which Sir Nicholas O'Conor has made during the last few months in endeavouring to bring about an improvement in the state of things in the Balkan Peninsula. He has found the means of commanding the confidence of the Sultan, and his position has been undoubtedly strengthened by the knowledge that the advice he has given, to the Turkish Government is of an absolutely disinterested character and designed solely for the good of all concerned. One word more with regard to my noble friend's speech. He suggested to us the appointment of a European conference. I would ask my noble friend whether he is quite sure that if a conference were to be assembled to-morrow we should really be much nearer the satisfactory solution that we all desire? I have always been under the impression that a conference of the Powers does not hold out much hope of success unless before the conference is assembled there is some reason for believing that the Powers concerned will enter into it in general agreement as to the means which might be adopted of dealing with the questions at issue. We have had some experience of the difficulties encountered even by two Powers in dealing with this problem; and I own that I should be sorry to speak with entire confidence of the prospects of a conference assembled without a previous understanding and merely with the object of what I may describe as fishing for a solution of the Macedonian question. And surely it is fair to say that of all the calamities which could befall these much afflicted regions, none could be greater than that a conference should assemble and should separate without having discovered a means of putting an end to this grievous condition of things. Then, indeed, something like despair would overtake these long-suffering populations, and we might look forward with the gravest anticipation to the result which such a feeling might produce upon their minds.
  And now, my Lords, I will endeavour to answer the Questions put by the noble Earl, with regard to the European officers who are to be employed with the Macedonian gendarmerie, and with regard to the two high officials who are to be attached to the staff of the Inspector-General. First as to the number of the European officers. It is quite true that

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  at this moment only twenty-five are to be sent out; but the number originally mentioned was sixty, and the Powers have made it clear that they do not depart from their original demand, and that they reserve to themselves the right of sending additional officers at the proper time. I may say that General de Giorgis, who is to have command of the force, expressed the opinion that for the present and as a beginning twenty-five officers was a sufficient number. The officers to be employed are of two classes. There are, in the first place, seven staff officers—officers of senior rank who are attached to the General, and who will not be in the Turkish service, and who will consequently not wear the Turkish uniform. In the second place, there are the twenty-five European officers already mentioned who will be attached to the gendarmerie and who will be in the Turkish service
  The noble Earl is anxious to know something of the degree of authority and independence which will belong to these officers. I think I may say that both classes will have very extensive powers and a very considerable amount of independence of the ordinary Turkish administration. That will be the case, although they will not be in immediate or executive command of the gendarmerie in the sense in which a regimental officer has executive command of the troops under his charge. That point was very carefully considered; and both Sir Nicholas O'Conor and the distinguished officer who has been appointed as British staff officer with General de Giorgis—Colonel Fairholme—advised that, all things considered, it would be better that these officers should not have executive command. They thought, to begin with, that it was not desirable that British officers should be in actual command of Turkish troops. They believed that the authority of the officers would be greater, and not less, if their position was made to differ from that of the ordinary Turkish officer; finally, by putting them in a special position of this kind, we relieve them from the necessity of taking the oath of allegiance to the Sultan, which would have been necessary if they had been actually in executive command.
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  The senior, or staff, officers will be the advisers of the General in all matters concerning the administration, the training of the force, and its organisation. They will report to the general and receive their instructions from him. As to the remaining European officers, all orders issued to the gendarmerie will be either sent through these officers or communicated to them and transmitted, in case, they are given to them, to the Turkish officers in executive command of the troops; and, what is very important, it will be the duty of the European officers to see that those orders are carried out and to report to the General if there is any failure to comply with the orders or to obstruct their execution. Another important point as bearing on the position of the officers is this. The European officers will be irremovable except in consequence of a decision of a special committee presided over by the General himself. But while they are to be irremovable, they are to have the right of calling for the dismissal or removal from the corps of any members, officers or men, who are disobedient, obstructive, or inefficient. These are, so far as we have been able to ascertain, the functions of these European officers; but I should make it clear that the Powers reserve to themselves the right of revising these arrangements should they be found to work unsatisfactorily in practice.
  I should like to add one other observation with regard to these officers. I think it would be a mistake to suppose that their authority and position will depend entirely upon the terms of their appointment or the regulations subject to which they will serve. They will serve in the gendarmerie not merely in the capacity of assistants to the General, but as representatives of the Powers by whom they are appointed and they will have exceptional opportunities of watching the progress of events in these provinces and reporting upon them from time to time. I do not think that at any moment we have yet had an opportunity of obtaining the kind of evidence which it may be hoped we shall be able to obtain from them.
  Passing to the civil assistants of the Inspector-General, I am constrained

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  to say with much regret that I am not able to describe their achievements in language much more reassuring than that which my noble friend has used. They were appointed with the expectation that they would be able to direct the attention of the Inspector-General to the needs of the Christian population; and I think we all of us supposed that, in order that they might be able to exercise that extremely important function, they would be officials of a peripatetic description, who would make tours in their districts and endeavour to see with their own eyes what was going on in them. I regret extremely to say that differences of opinion have arisen with regard to these tours; and I understand that the Turkish Government has insisted that if such tours are to take place the civil assistant is invariably to be accompanied by a Turkish official, and that this restriction has been objected to, with the result that the tours have not taken place. The controversy, I believe, is still proceeding; and up to the present time I am afraid it is impossible to point to any very special results from the presence of these officials. I may say that we have invited the two Governments concerned to supply us if possible with any reports which may have been furnished by the civil assistants, but up to the present we have not succeeded in obtaining any such documents.
  I think I have now said all I am able to say in reply to the specific Questions of the noble Earl. With regard to the general situation, I can only once more express my regret that the progress which has been made with these reforms should have been so tardy. I might almost say that at times it has been heartrending to find the number of minor difficulties which apparently have cropped up on every side to prevent the expeditious carrying out of arrangements which every one professes to desire. We can only promise your Lordships that, so far as we are concerned, we shall continue to use such influence as we may be able to exercise for the purpose of expediting these measures of reform and for the purpose of inculcating moderation and self-restraint where those qualities are most needed.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, on the last occasion when the noble Marquess

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  spoke on this subject he suggested that the Government might be assisted in the future by action being taken by Members of both Houses to encourage them and strengthen their hands. What is the situation to-day? Your Lordships have heard the statement of a Member of this House, who certainly has not the character of being an anti-Turk. You have heard what he has seen during his recent visit to the Balkan provinces, and you have heard him describe the imminent danger of massacre. Exactly the same thing was hinted at by The Times correspondent in to-day's paper. The snow has gone, and now is the time when an outbreak is likely to occur. In face of that, I ask the House, can we accept the statement we have just heard from the noble Marquess as satisfactory, or say that it seems to indicate any great hope of successfully battling with the situation in these countries? I fully acknowledge the difficulties of the situation and the difficulties which the Government have to face. Still it does seem to me that the speech of the noble Marquis is almost a confession of impotence. All the great Powers are agreed that the present situation should be put an end to. The duty of carrying out the views of the Powers has been entrusted to Russia and Austria. I think it is an unfortunate thing that these two Powers should be the very Powers which hive the greatest interests in these territories. It is also an unfortunate thing that one of those Powers should at this moment have its hands very full elsewhere. Is there no hope that the other great Powers may be able to bring some influence to bear upon them to force them to take some action? I believe Lord Newton has declared quite truly the confidence of the population of these provinces in British good intentions and British power. I wish we had heard the noble Marquess announce some intention to endeavour to influence somehow—it is not for me to suggest how—Russia and Austria; and, if we cannot do that, to act on our own behalf in conjunction with France and Germany. The time is passing quickly, and if prompt action is not taken we may expect a renewal of the terrible incidents which have lately been so frequent. Surely it is a scandal that the Sultan should be able to turn the jealousies, desires, and ambitions of the

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  European Powers to his own advantage, to use them for the purpose of leaving these wretched subjects of his in their present terrible condition. I do not wish to say a word which would add to the difficulties of the situation; but I desire that Members of Parliament should adopt the course suggested by the noble Marquess on a former occasion, and I hope the effect of their action will be to enable the Government to take some more decided action than they have yet indicated.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.