Sitting of 28 March 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—Barry Railway (Extension of Time, etc.) Bill [Lords]; Ipswich Dock Commission Bill [Lords]; Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [Lords]; Tynemouth Gas Bill [Lords]. Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
  Bishop's Stortford and District Gas Bill. Verbal Amendments made; Bill read the third time, and passed.
  Great Central and Midland Joint Railways Bill; Sutton Gas Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Birkdale Improvement Bill; Soothill Nether Urban District Tramways Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Appleby Corporation Gas Bill [Lords]; Govan Burgh (Electricity) Bill [Lords]; London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Bill [Lords]; Young and Bell's Patents Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Brixham Gas Bill (by Order). As amended, considered; an Amendment made; Bill to be read the third time.
  Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1). Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade, under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Barry, Clitheroe, Gainsborough, Glastonbur), Heysham, Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Saffron Walden, Walmer, Whickham, and Yardley, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bonar Law and Mr. Gerald Balfour.
  Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill. "To confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade, under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Barry, Clitheroe, Gainsborough, Glastonbury, Heysham, Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Saffron Walden, Walmer, Whickham, and Yardley," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 141.]

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP No. 1).
  Mr. KIMBER reported from the Committee on Group No. 1 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Thursday, 14th April, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.
  Public Petitions Committee. Fourth Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Metropolitan Improvements (Funds) Bill, without Amendment.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for extinguishing certain rights of way over certain lands situate in the parish of Guston, in the county of Kent." [Site for Duke of York's School Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision for the application and distribution of the water stock issued to the New River Company in discharge of the sum payable as compensation for the transfer of their water undertaking to the Metropolitan Water Board, for the reconstruction of the company and its registration as a limited company; and for other purposes." [New River Company Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to merge the Yorkshire College in the University of Leeds; and to transfer all the property and liabilities of the Yorkshire College to the University of Leeds; and for other purposes." [University of Leeds Bill [Lords], changed from "Victoria University of Yorkshire Bill [Lords.]"
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Huddersfield Corporation Act, 1902; and for other purposes." [Huddersfield Corporation Act, 1902 (Amendment) Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision with reference to the registration under the Companies Acts, 1862 to 1900, of the Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company, and the substitution of a memorandum and articles of association for their existing constitution and regulations, and for the repeal of certain Acts relating to such Company; and for other purposes." [Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company Bill [Lords.]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Gosport Waterworks Company to make additional waterworks; to acquire the undertaking of the Lee-on-the-Solent Waterworks Company, Limited, and to raise additional capital;
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  to extend the limits of supply of the Company; to confer further powers upon the Company; and for other purposes." [Gosport Water Bill [Lords.]
  And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate the Owens College, Manchester, with the Victoria University of Manchester; and to transfer all the property and liabilities of the college to the Victoria University of Manchester; and for other purposes." [Victoria University of Manchester Bill [Lords.]
  New River Company Bill [Lords]; University of Leeds Bill [Lords]; Huddersfield Corporation Act, 1902 (Amendment) Bill [Lords]; Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company Bill [Lords]; Gosport Water Bill [Lords]; Victoria University of Manchester Bill [Lords]. Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  LICENCES (RENEWAL).
  Petitions against alteration of law: from Exeter; Leeds; Liverpool (two); Bristol (two); Bury; Market Drayton; Chelmsford; and Finchley; to lie upon the Table.
SALE OF BUTTER BILL.
Petition from Leamington, against; to lie upon the Table.
TRANSVAAL (CHINESE LABOUR ORDINANCE).
Petition from Bury, for withdrawal; to lie upon the Table.
RETURN'S, REPORTS, ETC.
  MEDICAL COUNCILS.
  Accounts presented, for 1903, of the General Medical Council and Branch Councils, and of the Dental Registration Fund [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

POLLING DISTRICTS (WEST RIDING OF THE COUNTY OF YORK).
Copy presented, of Order made by the County Council of the West Riding of

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the County of York altering certain Polling Districts in the Osgoldcross, Skipton, and Barnsley Parliamentary Divisions [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS CON DITIONAL LICENCE.
Copy presented, of Licences granted to Emma Mary Agnes West, a convict under detention in Aylesbury Prison, permitting her to be at large on condition that she enter the East End Refuge, Finchley [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
BOARDS OF GUARDIANS (PERSONS IN RECEIPT OF RELIEF).
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 1st July, 1903; Mr. Burt]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 113.]
COUNCILS OF BOROUGHS IN ENGLAND AND WALES (INDEBTEDNESS).
Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 24th June, 1903; Mr. John Ellis]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 114.]
LOCOMOTIVES ON HIGHWAYS ACT, 1896, AND MOTOR CAR ACT, 1903.
Copy presented, of Regulations of the Local Government Board as to Registration and Licensing of Motor Cars under Section 6 of the Locomotives on Highways Act, 1396; and Section 7 of the Motor Car Act, 1903 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
LOCOMOTIVES ON HIGHWAYS ACT, 1896, AND MOTOR CAR ACT, 1903.
Copy presented, of Regulations as to Use and Construction of Motor Cars made by the Local Government Board under Section 6 of The Locomotives on Highways Act, 1896 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
WINES IMPORTED.
Return presented, relative thereto [Ordered 29th February; Sir Thomas Dewar]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 115.]

ARMY (ORDNANCE FACTORIES).
Annual Account presented, for the year 1902–3, with the Report of the
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Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 116.]

SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1887.
Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 24th March, 1904, granting to Mr. Thomas G. Stuart-French, Upper Division Clerk, Secretary's Office, Post Office, a retiring allowance under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
Copy presented, of Annual Report of Proceedings under the Tithe Acts, Copyhold Act, 1894, Inclosure Acts, and other Acts for the year 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
Copy presented, of Annual Reports of Proceedings under the Diseases of Animals Acts, the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, etc., for the year 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series. Nos. 3131 and 3132 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
Inquiry into Charities (County of Wilts). Further Return relative thereto [ordered 9th August, 1901; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen]; to be printed. [No. 117.]

FLEETS (GREAT BRITAIN AND FOREIGN COUNTRIES).
Return ordered, "showing the fleets of Great Britain, France, Russia, Germany, Italy, United States of America, and Japan, distinguishing: battleships, built and building; cruisers, built and building; coast defence vessels, built and building; torpedo vessels, torpedo boat destroyers, and torpedo boats, built and building."
"Return to show date of launch, displacement, and armaments, reduced to one common scale (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 165, of Session 1903)."—(Sir Charles Dilke.)

GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS SECURITIES.
Return ordered, "of the amounts of British Government Securities held by the several Government Departments

£2½ per Cent. Consols.

£2¾ per Cents. (1965).

£2½ per Cents.

Local Loans £3 per Cent. Stock.

£2¾ per Cent. Guaranteed Land Stock.

£2¾ per Gent. War Loan.

Other Securities.

Annuities for terms of years.

Exchequer Bonds and Treasury Bills.

Local Loans Bonds.

—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Land Transfer Rules.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: To ask Mr. Attorney-General whether, under the Land Transfer Rules, 1903, the registrar is not given practically unlimited discretion to issue certificates of absolute title conferring an immediate Government guarantee of validity in cases where a purchaser has been registered with a possessory title for a period of six years, and whether any fund has been set aside from the receipts of the Land Registry for providing an indemnity; and, if not, or if the same is insufficient, whether the whole indemnity or the deficiency, as the case may be, is payable out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom; and whether such rules have been made with the advice and assistance of the Rule Committee.
  (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) The thirty-sixth of the general rules, under the Land Transfer Act, made on the 18th December last, provides that on application for registration with an absolute title the examination of the title may be modified in such manner as the registrar may think fit, in cases in which the land has been registered with a possessory or qualified title for six years prior to the date of application. I am informed that since the Act came into force about £10,000 a year has been set aside from
  and other Public Offices on the 31st day of March 1904, specifying whether held in England or Ireland (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 160, of Session 1903):—
  the receipts of the Land Registry towards the insurance fund, and that it now amounts to £48,449. The 21st Section of the Land Transfer Act, 1897, provides that any deficiency shall be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, but that any sum so paid shall be repaid out of money subsequently standing to the credit of the insurance fund. The rules were made by the Lord Chancellor, and in accordance with Sub-section 2 of Section 22 of the Act of 1897.

  Post Office Savings Bank.
  DR. MACNAMARA: To ask the Postmaster-General, with reference to the position of the Post Office Savings Bank when the yearly accounts were made up on 31st December, 1903, if he will state what was the total amount due to depositors; what was the amount of Consols held; at what price were the Consols valued; did the balance sheet show an excess of liabilities over assets; and, if so, what was the amount of that excess.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The amount due to depositors in the Post Office Savings Bank on 31st December, 1903, was approximately £146,133,500, but the precise figure cannot be given until the end of May. The amount of Consols held on that date was £61,062,221, and the average price of that day at which they were valued was 87⅞ x. d. Or. this basis the excess of liabilities over assets were somewhat over

  815
  £10,000,000; but, as pointed out by the Select Committee on Savings Banks, a valuation on this basis is misleading, and does not give a correct view of the real position. I need hardly remind the hon. Member that the payment of the lawful claims of depositors is absolutely guaranteed by Parliament, and that they have as security the whole credit of the nation.

  Promotions of Civil Service Writers to Abstractor Class in the War Office.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state how many out of the 600 writers promoted to the abstractor class were gazetted to the War Office, and the number of these who actually forfeited £100 gratuity on such promotion; and how many of these established clerks in the War Office have been called upon to accept retirement at the age of 60 years while efficient and with less than forty years of service.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) Twenty-seven abstractors have been posted to the War Office. A writer on appointment to an abstractorship became eligible for a pension in lieu of the gratuity for which he was eligible as a writer. Eight of these men would have been eligible for a gratuity of £100 as writers. In reply to the last part of the Question one clerk was so called upon to retire.

  Printed Answers —Saving under New Arrangement.
  MR. CHANNING: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what has been the cost of printing answers to Questions under Standing Order No. 9 during last session, and during the present session, up to the day on which the present form of printing began; and what is the saving anticipated from the present form of printing such answers.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) (1) £2,500; (2) £725; (3) From £1,800 to £1,900 for an ordinary full session.

  Income-Tax Collection in England and Scotland.
  SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL: To ask Mr. Chancellor
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  of the Exchequer whether he will state what differences in the legal procedure of Scotland and England necessitate differences in the form of the notices for the collection of Income-Tax.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The main points of difference in the law in England and Scotland respectively which affect this question relate—(a) to the appointment of collectors who in England are, as a rule, appointed by and are the servants of the District Commissioners, but in Scotland are appointed by and are the servants of the Board of Inland Revenue; (b) to the power of enforcing payment: — In England the collectors themselves are empowered to distrain; in Scotland the Sheriff's Officer must be employed to levy distraint.

  Sea Police Duties of His Majesty's Ships "Seamew," "Speedwell," and "Cockchafer."
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state whether His Majesty's Ships, "Seamew," "Speedwell," or "Cockchafer," have been engaged on sea police duty during the present year; and, if so, will he say what areas have come within their respective patrol, and the number of days each vessel was engaged at sea.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray) None of the vessels mentioned have been engaged in sea police duty for the Fishery Board off the coasts of Scotland during the present year.

  Tenders for Supplies at Haulbowline.
  CAPTAIN DONELANTo ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that large quantities of candles, soap, and other articles are sent almost daily to Haulbowline from England; and whether facilities will be afforded to Irish manufacturers to tender for all such supplies.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) Tenders for the articles referred to are invited by public advertisement, and it is open to any manufacturer in the United Kingdom to tender. In order, however, that Irish manufacturers may have full opportunity of doing so, I have arranged

  817
  for the invitations to tender to be advertised in future in some of the principal Irish newspapers.

  Grocery and Drapery Contracts for the Navy at Cork Harbour.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that grocery contractors to the Navy in the Cork Harbour district now include drapery goods in their supplies; and whether steps will be taken to put a stop to this practice.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) As no contracts for groceries for His Majesty's ships at Queenstown are made at the Admiralty, the Question probably has reference to contracts for supplies to the canteens, the responsibility with regard to which rests with the Canteen Committees.

  Navy—Pensions and Promotion of Engineer Officers.
  MR. KEARLEY: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state what steps are being taken by the Admiralty to give effect to the promised revision of the scales of pension and retirement in the case of engineer officers; whether acceleration in promotion to the rank of engineer lieutenant is provided for; and whether the pay of engineer commander on promotion will be 24s. a day, as laid down in the First Lord's Memorandum of December, 1902.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) I am not aware of any promise having been made that the scales of pension and retirement in the case of engineer officers would be revised. The question, however, has naturally arisen in connection with recent changes; and, after full consideration, it has been decided to make no alterations. Arrangements are already in progress for the acceleration of advancement to the rank of engineer lieutenant. The pay of engineer commanders on promotion is fixed at 24s. a day, and this will apply in all cases as soon as the new arrangements become fully operative. During the period of transition, however, and to meet the difficulty arising from the ages of existing engineer lieutenants, it has been decided to grant the rank of engineer commander before the expiration of the full period qualifying them for the higher
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  pay. Officers who thus obtain earlier promotion in rank will not receive the 24s. a day until they have completed the requisite service.

  Horse Breeding—King's Premiums.
  MR. LLOYD MORGAN: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether King's premiums are confined to thoroughbred horses only; and whether, for the purpose of improving the breed of shire horses, and for assisting the smaller farmers, he will consider whether the funds appropriated to the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding can be sore-arranged as to extend King's premiums to horses of greater utility to farmers than thoroughbreds; and, seeing that South Wales is grouped with seven of the western counties of England, and that only four King's premium horses are relegated to this district, he will consider whether the time has not arrived when some re-arrangement of the districts is desirable.
  (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) The King's premiums are confined to thoroughbred stallions, suitable for getting "half-bred horses" of general utility, as recommended by the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding in 1887. It is not considered necessary to alter, at present, the scheme of arrangements.

  Opening of Portions of Kew Gardens to the Public.
  MR. JOSEPH HOWARD: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will state why the portion of Kew Gardens between the Queen's Cottage and the Old Deer Park, after being thrown open last year, has now again been closed to the public; and whether he will give directions to have the gate thrown open, in accordance with the intention of the Royal gift to the nation.
  (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) The grass path through the Queen's Cottage grounds has recently keen drained and levelled and the turf has been relaid. The fences are new being repainted. The grounds will be re-opened to the public as

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  soon as possible, probably about the middle of April, if the weather continues favourable.

  Registration of Dogs—Free Collars.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will ascertain the cost of supplying owners of dogs with collars free of charge, and whether the increased revenue which will be obtained from an efficient system of registration would meet such cost.
  (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) I do not think it is probable that any such increase of revenue is likely to accrue by reason of the better enforcement of the dog licence duty as would be sufficient to cover the cost of collars, and of any system of registration which might be adopted. As the hon. Member is aware, the proceeds of the dog licence duties are paid over to the various local authorities.

  Farmers' Exemption from Dog Tax.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will state how it is proposed to enable crofters, farmers, and shepherds resident far distant from any Petty Sessions or Sheriff's Court to obtain the usual exemption from the Dog Tax.
  (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) It is proposed that the rules to be made under Section 4 of the Dogs Bill should be so framed as to render personal attendance on the part of applicants for certificates of exemption unnecessary, except in those cases in which the circumstances appear either to the Inland Revenue or to the Court to call for special investigation. In the great majority of cases the necessary information would be obtained without requiring the presence of the applicant.

  Vaccination Exemption Certificates.
  MR. CORRIE GRANT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board how many
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  certificates of exemption from vaccination have been granted since the Act of 1898 came into force up to the present time (or up to the date of the latest Return), and whether any of the children so exempted, and, if so, how many, have been attacked by smallpox; and whether any, and, if so, how many, have died from that disease.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Returns as to the number of certificates of conscientious objection to vaccination received by the vaccination officers in the year 1903 are not quite complete, but the total number received since the passing of The Vaccination Act, 1898, may be taken as approximately 387,000. By far the largest number were given between the passing of the Act and the end of the year 1898, viz., 203,413. This was due to the fact that certificates could be obtained during the four months after the passing of the Act in respect of all children born prior to that date, whilst in respect of children born after that date the certificate must be obtained within four months from the birth of the child. I have no means of ascertaining how many of the exempted children have been attacked by smallpox, but several such cases have been reported to me.

  Regulations for Secondary Schools.
  LIEUTENANT-COLONEL BOWLES: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will explain why Clause VII. has been omitted from the Regulations for Secondary Schools; and whether he will consider the advisability of restoring the procedure under this clause, so that all forms and claims from the schools may pass through the office of the local education authority on their way to the Board of Education, and all grants from the Board may be paid through the local education authority for higher education.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The old Clause VII. of the Regulations is still retained, though in a somewhat modified form, in Clauses IV. and V. of the Regulations for Secondary Schools. The procedure referred to in the Question does not appear to be in all respects suited to

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  present circumstances, but the matter is receiving the consideration of the Board.

  Discarded Constabulary Rifles for Irish Volunteers.
  MR. JOHN O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will consider the advisability of handing over the rifles that are being discarded by the police in Ireland to those tenants who may become peasant proprietors under the Land Act of 1903, with a view to the revival of the Irish Volunteers; and, if so, whether he will take the necessary steps to have the adult population thoroughly trained in the use of arms.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The rifles will be returned to the War Department.

  South Pier, Donoghadee Harbour.
  MR. WOOD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has been made aware of the state of the south pier of Donoghadee Harbour, county Down, during the past two years; and whether he is aware that it is during the March spring tides that repairs can best be proceeded with; and, if so, will steps immediately be taken to restore the pier.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The repairs to the north pier being of a more urgent character were first taken in hand. These have been completed. The execution of repairs to such works is dependent on weather, not tides, and summer is the best time for working. The repairs to the south pier will, if possible, be completed this year.

  Supply of Drink to Intoxicated Persons — Limavady Case.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the coroner for the Limavady district held an inquest on the l5th instant into the death of a farmer who, according to the evidence, had been drinking excessively during the day in Limavady, and on returning home was given another supply at a roadside public house; can he state
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  what steps have been taken to prosecute those responsible for giving the drink; and will he cause intructions to be issued that, in cases where it is shown the deceased was under the influence of drink when he came by his death, full inquiries should be made and the offenders prosecuted.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) An inquest was held into the circumstances attending the death of the man in question. There was no evidence whatever adduced at the inquest that the deceased had been drinking to excess. The only evidence given in this connection was to the effect that he had had two drinks on the date mentioned. His death was caused by the upsetting of his cart, under which the body was found. The horse was in the habit of shying. The local police report that the deceased was a sober, steady man.

  Belfast Constabulary Barracks.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, seeing that the Royal Irish Constabulary barracks in Great Victoria Street, Belfast, were taken over by the Great Northern Railway Company in February, 1903, and that the place now used for barracks is three private houses in bad repair and insanitary and without the necessary accommodation, if he can state how long it is proposed to retain these premises in their present condition, and when new barracks will be built.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) It is not correct to say that the barracks are insanitary and in bad repair. The question of accommodation for the police is under consideration, and until a permanent barrack is secured the premises in question, or other temporary accommodation, must be retained.

  Education of Deaf and Dumb Children in Ireland.
  MR. CLANCY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that while in the financial year 1903–4 sums of £34,265 and £3,265 were voted out of Imperial funds in aid of the

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  education and maintenance of deaf and dumb children in England and Scotland respectively, there has been no grant made for a similar purpose in Ireland; and, if so, whether he proposes to rectify the omission in the case of Ireland, and, if necessary for that purpose, to extend to Ireland the provisions of the English and Scotch enactments under which the grants referred to are annually made.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I am aware of the provision referred to in the first part of the Question. I hope to deal with the matter by legislation at an early date.

  Extra Police in Armagh and Sligo.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland under what statutory authority was the extra force of police from adjoining counties employed in the county of Armagh, the cost of which is now in dispute; under what authority was the corresponding force, whose cost has been remitted, employed in the county of Sligo; was no claim made upon the county of Sligo for the cost of the police from adjoining counties as distinguished from the Reserve; and, if not, can he explain why this was not done.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The detachments drafted into Armagh are charged for under the 27th Section of the 6 Will. 4, c. 13, and the 6th Section of the 11 and 12 Vic. c. 72. In the case of Sligo, the force in respect in which the claim was made was a force originally ordered from the Reserve, which is constituted under the authority of the 2 and 3 Vic, c. 75, and the 9 and 10 Vic, c. 97. For the reasons, however, explained by me on Thursday last†, the claim in the Sligo case was not legally admissible, and was withdrawn. There was no power so to transform the latter claim as to recover the expenses in the manner applicable in the Armagh case.

  Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what were
  See page 610.
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  the numbers of the Royal Irish Constabulary officers and men in 1880, and the annual expenditure for the maintenance of the force, the numbers and annual expenditure in 1890, in 1900, and in 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The following table gives the desired information:—

  Year.

  Officers and Men.

  Cost.

  £

  1880–1881

  11,508

  1,169,002

  1890–1891

  12,773

  1,424,530

  1900–1901

  11,191

  1,345,511

  1902–1903

  11,192

  1,361,419

  Dublin Metropolitan Police.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what were the numbers of the Dublin Metropolitan Police in 1890 and in 1893, and the expenditure in both these years for the maintenance of this force, and from what sources and under what statutory provisions is the money obtained.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The number of police in 1890–1 was 1,220 and the total expenditure was £143,469. In 1893–4 the number was 1,221, and the total expenditure £144,458. The expenditure was defrayed partly from voted moneys and partly from local sources. Receipts from the latter sources were derivable from police tax, pawnbrokers' duty, carriage revenue, fines and fees, police and incidental revenue under the various Acts of Parliament instituting them.

  Army Contracts—Drapery and Grocery in the Cork District.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that grocery contractors to the troops in the Cork district now include drapery goods in their supplies; and whether steps will betaken to put a stop to this practice.
  (Answered by Mr. Bromley Davenport.) A very small trade is done in towels,

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  handkerchiefs, braces, web belts, needles, pins, and a few other small articles. It is not proposed to put a stop to the practice, as by it, the troops are supplied with good articles at the lowest possible price.

  Piece Work in Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield.
  COLONEL BOWLES: To ask the; Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state the number of men employed at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield who have not earned 22s. a week at piece work during the last six weeks; and whether the orders for the machine gun department are likely to be such as will keep the hands employed during the present year.
  (Answered by Mr. Bromley Davenport.) The number of men generally employed on piece work who have not earned 22s. a week on piece work at Enfield during the past six weeks is 152. The orders for machine guns are very much reduced, and will involve the discharge of about seventy men.

  Size and Cost of European Armies.
  MR. LOUGH: To ask the Secretary of State for War what are the numbers of men in the British, German, Austrian, French, and Italian Regular Armies, in peace and in war, respectively; and the peace Budget of each country.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) (1) Strength (all ranks) of the British. German, Austrian, French, and Italian Regular Armies:—

  Peace.

  War.

  British (1904–5)

  217,000

  300,000 about.

  †German

  600,000‡

  3,224,000† about.

  †Austrian

  325,245

  2,000,000 about.

  †French

  602,120‡

  3,200,000† about.

  †Italian

  220,637

  1,900,000

  † The numbers shown under "War" include all men who have served in the Regular Army, and who could be called upon to rejoin that Army in time of War.

  ‡ Exclusive of Colonial troops serving abroad.

  826
  (2) The peace Budget of each of the above-mentioned countries: — British, 1904–5, £28,830,000; German, 1903–4, £31,880,455§; Austrian. 1903, £17,493,633; French, 1904, £27,053,196; Italian, 1903–4, £11,277,556.

  Military Regulations as to Wearing of Hair.
  MR. PLATT-HIGGINS: To ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the fact that a private of the 2nd Buffs has been tried by Court-martial at Dover for striking a corporal of the Military Police, in the course of an altercation arising out of the private having worn his curls outside his cap, and whether he will consider the propriety of altering a regulation which tends to make the service unpopular with the rank, and file.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The rules of the service, as regards hair, are the same for officers and men, i.e., the hair is to be kept short, and no-alteration in this rule appears advisable. The incident has not been brought to the notice of the Secretary of State; it is one within the purviews of the General Commanding, but if the facts are as stated in the Question, the private has been guilty of insubordination.

  British Army in India.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state what number of the 227,000 men and officers, now being voted as the established strength of the British Army for the year 1904–5, will be usually stationed in the Indian Empire; what is the estimated proportion that the Indian revenues will thus have to sustain of the whole cost of the British Army; whether the consent of the Government of India has been formally obtained to the maintenance in that country of such troops and to the charge on the Indian revenues consequent thereon during the coming financial year; and whether the despatch
  §The German Estimates make no provision for pensions, which are included in a separate Budget and amount to about £5,000,000 a year.
  Exclusive of cost of Colonial troops serving abroad.

  827
  recording that consent by the Governor-General in Council, together with any dissents, will be placed before Parliament.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The numbers quoted do not include troops who would usually be stationed in the Indian Empire, and whose cost falls upon Indian revenues, with the exception of those Native regiments now serving in Somaliland and North China, whose cost is borne by Imperial funds.

  Civil Rights of Imported Chinese Labourers on the Rand.
  MR. LOUGH: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what special conditions exist in the gold-mining industry on the Rand making it right to omit from the Chinese Ordinance the provisions which have been inserted in other Colonial Immigration Ordinances ensuring to its imported labourers direct access to the magistrates' Courts to complain of their wrongs, and giving them special protection against assaults or ill-treatment by their employers.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) In my opinion it is better for the interest of the labourer that he should be represented in the magistrates' Court by his superintendent. If the Chinese desire personal access to the Courts their object may be secured by regulation.

  Chinese Labour Ordinance.
  MR. LOUGH: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, seeing that the burden cast upon the importers of returning the Chinese immigrants to their country at the termination of their contracts will diminish as the rate of mortality increases among the Chinese, and that in other Colonial Immigration Ordinances there are provisions prohibiting the further employment of imported labourers by those employers in whose service the rate of mortality amongst their labourers is high, a similar provision can be made in the Transvaal Ordinance.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The hon. Member's suggestion shall be considered.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of
  828
  State for the Colonies whether Lord Milner has advised that the provisions of the Transvaal Labour Importation Ordinance should be extended so as to apply to Asiatics now resident in the Transvaal; if so, whether Lord Milner has advised that the whole or that certain portions of the Ordinance should be so extended; and whether he will present to the House at an early date any correspondence that has passed on this subject.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) No, Sir, my statement in the House on Thursday was due to a misapprehension of the terms of a telegram which, as I said, was somewhat obscure in its terms. I only had the opportunity of examining it cursorily just before I spoke.

  Asiatics in Johannesburg.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state approximately the number of Asiatics now resident in Johannesburg, and the number resident in the Transvaal as a whole, and how many of these are Chinese.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) Lord Milner informs me that the total number of male Asiatics above the age of sixteen resident in the Transvaal is 9,861, of which 981 are Chinese, the number resident in Johannesburg and district is 6,453, of which 952 are Chinese.

  Receipts of Transvaal Railways.
  MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if Lord Milner's estimate, in his telegram of 1st February 1904, of the net receipts of the Transvaal railways for the current year as £1,400,000 relates to the same railways the net receipts of which he estimated in May, 1903, at £2,500,000.
  (Answered by Mr Secretary Lyttelton.) Yes, Sir, they are the same railways.

  Transvaal Treasury Receipts.
  MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can explain why the Transvaal Treasury Receipts for the year ending 30th June, 1903, show only '£116,316 to have been received on account of the Ten per cent. Profit Tax, while the dividends paid by

  829
  the gold mines for the same period appear to have exceeded £2,500,000.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyitelton.) The yield of the tax is affected by the reduction of profits resulting from the mines not running at full strength, and to the amount which falls to be deducted from the profits in raspect of the amortisation allowance. I propose to include in financial Papers shortly to be laid a despatch from Lord Milner explaining this.

  Chinese Labour Ordinance.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say what is the distinction, having regard to the official announcement that the King does not disallow the Chinese Labour Importation Ordinance, between the expressions "does not disallow" and the usual expressions "allows" or "sanctions"; whether, having regard to the negative expression indicating that the King does not allow the Ordinance, the Crown still retains the power within a limited time of disallowing the Ordinance; and whether, if such power be exercised, the Ordinance in accordance with the Rules and Regulations printed by the Colonial Office ceases to become operative from the date at which such disallowance is published in the colony.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The expression that His Majesty will not be advised to disallow an Ordinance, follows the terms of the section in the Ordinance, is in the usual form, and has the same meaning as the expressions allowance or sanction. The hon. Member has already been informed by the First Lord of the Treasury, in reply to a Question on the 16th instant†, that there is no precedent for the Crown, having announced that it does not raise any objection to an Ordinance, reversing that decision.

  Powers of Assent to Ordinances of Lord High Commissioner or Governor of Transvaal.
  MR. BLACK: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any instructions were issued under the Royal Sign Manual restricting
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxi., 1265.
  830
  the powers of the Lord High Commissioner or of the Governor of the Transvaal as regards the Ordinances to which he may give his assent; if so, can he state what are the terms of these instructions as regards subjecting persons not of European birth, who are not British subjects, to disabilities or restrictions.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.)I have to refer the hon. Member to Clause XXII. of the Instructions to the Governor of the Transvaal, printed at page 14 of [Cd. 1463], and more particularly to the last paragraph of the clause, which states that the Governor may assent to such Ordinances if they contain a clause suspending their operation until the signification of His Majesty's pleasure.

  Chinese Labour for the Transvaal- Cost of Transport.
  MR. BLACK: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the estimated cost of transporting a man, his wife, and four children under ten years of age from Hong-Kong to Durban, and returning them at the end of the period of service; whether the whole of this cost falls on the importer; and, if so, whether he has considered what prospect there is of an importer engaging men who demand the transport of their wives and families as compared with men who make no such demand.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I am not prepared to give an estimate of the cost, but it will fall upon the importer. I have caused provision to be made by regulation for facilities for the introduction of the wives and families of labourers, but it must naturally be determined by experience to what extent married labourers are engaged or are accompanied by their wives and families.

  Chinese Labour for the Transvaal —Licences for Recruiting.
  MR. BLACK: To ask the Secretary; of State for the Colonies whether the I agents or recruiters employed to secure: labourers in China will require licence as well as the importers themselves; what steps, if any, will be taken to ensure that these recruiters are men of

  831
  British nationality and of good character; and whether they will be adequately penalised if it be found that they are inducing labourers to come from the interior to the port of debarkation through concealment of the nature of the contract, or through misrepresentation or pressure of any kind.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The official representing the Transvaal Government at the port of embarkation will grant the licence, to recruit, and will have to be satisfied that the re cruiters are fit and proper persons. He will have the power to cancel the licence, if necessary. Due precautions will be taken to prevent fraud, misrepresentation, and pressure.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Barrack Expenditure in South Africa
  MR. AINSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War in what places the £3,300,000 for cantonments in South Africa is being spent; and whether, seeing that such expenditure is largely of a permanent character, it is intended to maintain a permanent military force in South Africa.
  MR. OSMOND WILLIAMS: I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any of the troops in South Africa still live in bell tents, single ply, with five to eight men in a tent; if so, does he propose to remedy this condition of things shortly; have huts been yet erected in any one of the military districts in South Africa; and, if so, will he give the number of military districts with huts; and the number without.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): I will reply at the same time to the Question put by the hon. Member for Merionethshire. The sum mentioned is being spent at Pretoria, Middleburg, (Transvaal), Potchefstroom, Standerton, Barberton, Bloemfontein, Harrismith, Middleburg (Cape Colony), and Somerset West. The hutments in most cases are already completed or will be completed
  832
  by the end of July, but I cannot give exact details. Some of the troops are in circular tents, but these are being steadily replaced by the Indian pattern tents as the latter become available. The accommodation is required for the force now required in South Africa. I am not able to say how long it will be necessary to maintain that force at its present strength.

  South African War Honours.
  MR. AINSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War why Lord Kitchener's supplemental list of honours for services in South Africa has not been acted upon; and whether he will take steps to give effect to those recommendations.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The hon. Member is apparently under some misapprehension. I am not aware that Lord Kitchener has submitted a supplemental list of honours.

  War Office Reconstitution Committee.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state what has been the military experience of the three members of the War Office Reconstitution Committee.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The services rendered to the State by the members of the War Office Reconstitution Committee will be found in any ordinary book of reference. They are too numerous to be recited in answer to a Question. Only one member of the Committee has served in the Army.
  MR. LAMBERT: What has been their military experience?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: That is, of course, confined to the military member.

  The Mad Mullah.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Mullah has been informed by General Egerton that only his death or capture will put an end to the operations against him; and, if so, whether this declaration of the General's

  833
  was authorised and is held to commit His Majesty's Government to an indefinite continuance of the war in Somaliland.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I have no knowledge of any such proclamation having been issued by General Egerton. No such instructions have been sent to him.
  ME. WILLIAM REDMOND: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, as it was some time since this matter was raised, he will have inquiry made into the truth of the statement.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I am very loth to trouble a general in the field. General Egerton asked for instructions. He has received them, and he is now acting upon them.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: As there is a strong feeling as to the terms of the alleged proclamation, will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to inquire whether it is true or not?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I really do not think it is necessary. I will do it if the hon. Member really thinks it necessary.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I do consider it necessary, and I shall refer to the matter on the Army Estimates.

  Infantry Recruit Measurements.
  SIR CARNE RASCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state the requirements of the War Office as to height and chest measurement for infantry recruits of the Line; and whether such requirements were obtained in the 2nd Battalion Cheshire Regiment, which kept the streets on Tuesday last.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The minimum height standard for infantry recruits is five feet three inches; the chest measurements are shown in detail in Appendix II. of the Recruiting Regulations. These standards have not been departed from in the case of the Cheshire Regiment.

  Lord Northcote and Preferential Tariffs.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if instructions were given to Lord Northcote, as Governor of the Australian Commonwealth, to advocate preferential tariffs; and, if not, whether he proposes to take any action, in view of Lord Northcote's recent speech on the subject.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): No such instructions were given to Lord Northcote. As I stated on 7th instant†, in reply to the hon. Member for North Cork, I see no reason for taking any action in the matter.

  Chinese Labour in the Transvaal — Religious Observances.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether arrangements have been made to provide for the Chinese indentured labourers during their stay in the Transvaal the ministrations of the priests of their religion and the due celebration of the ceremonial rites of that religion; and, if so, what is the nature of these arrangements and on whom will the expense necessary thereto fall; whether arrangements have been made for the proper observance in Chinese temples of the Chinese festivals of the New Year, the Dragon Boat, the Full Moon, or the Winter Solstice which, under the provisions of the Ordinance, are declared to be holidays, and will suitable Chinese temples be erected in the compounds; and whether any, and, if so, what, provision has been made to secure that on the voyage between China and South Africa the Chinese indentured labourers shall have the means of celebrating their religious rites, and at whose expense will their idols be provided.
  MR. LYTTELTON: If the hon. Member takes an interest in Chinese ritual— [Mr. SWIFT MACNEILL: I no, great.]—I will endeavour to obtain information for him as to it. In my opinion he may,; without anxiety, leave the religious rites
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxi., 302.

  835
  of the Chinese to their own administration and their worship to be solemnised after their own fashion.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is this religion to be established and endowed? I want to know who is to pay for this ritual?
  MR. LYTTELTON: No arrangement has been made for the payment.
  MR. EUGENE WASON: Will other denominations be allowed these privileges?
  MR. LYTTELTON: I have answered the Question several times.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Has the right hon. Gentleman not given an undertaking to this House.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member knows from experience that his Question is irregular. He must give notice of any further Question.

  Political Mission to Tibet.
  MR. TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, if fighting takes place as a consequence of the advance of the Political Mission into Tibet, the Government will recognise the expedition as a military one, and take the necessary steps to secure the consent of both Houses of Parliament, as required by law.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): His Majesty's Government will undoubtedly comply with the law as expressed in Sections 54 and 55 of the Act for the better government of India.
  MR. FLYNN: Has the consent of the Suzerain Power been obtained?
  MR. LOUGH: And when shall we have the promised opportunity of debating the matter in this House?
  MR. BRODRICK: I do not know that any such promise has been given.
  MR. FLYNNrepeated his Question.
  MR.SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.

  Papers on Tibet.
  MR. TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any further Papers are about to be printed in reference to the Political Mission to Tibet.
  MR. BRODRICK: No further Papers are about to be printed at present. I may add that all the facts up to the beginning of last month have been given and nothing new or important has occurred since.

  Strength and Cost of the Expedition to Tibet.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state the present strength of the armed force accompanying the Mission in Tibet, the number of coolies and other persons engaged, the cost per week of the Mission, and the number of animals lost by death or otherwise.
  ME. BRODRICK: I can add nothing to my reply to the Question of the hon. Member for King's Lynn on the 4th February last† as to the strength of the force accompanying the Mission. I have no further information at present regarding the number of coolies employed, the weekly cost of the Mission, or the losses of animals.
  MR. WEIR: What about the Yaks?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Progress of the Tibet Expedition.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state how many weeks the British armed force in Tibet halted at Tuna, and the cause of the delay; and has the Chinese Government been consulted in regard to the proposed movement north of Tuna, and is it intended to resort to force in the event of the Tibetans offering resistance to the advance of the mission.
  † See (4) Debates, cxxix., 338.
  MR. BRODRICK: Colonel Young-husband arrived at Tuna on the 8th January, and has there awaited the collection of adequate supplies for a further advance. The Chinese Minister was informed on the 23rd November that it was impossible that His Majesty's Government should consent to postpone the measures which the conduct of the Tibetans had constrained them to adopt. The British Commissioner will resort to force only in the event of his advance being forcibly resisted, or of his communications being endangered.

  Tibet Expedition—The Chinese Amban.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any information has yet been received of the whereabouts of the new Amban, Imperial Chinese Resident to Lhasa; if so, will he state when he is expected to reach that city; and has any communication been received by Colonel Younghusband from the present Amban or the Tibetan officials accompanying him.
  MR. BRODRICK: The new Amban is reported to have arrived at Lhasa on the 11th February last. I have not heard that Colonel Younghusband has received any communication from him or from any Tibetan officials who may be accompanying him.

  Advance of Expedition in Tibet.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the armed expedition into Tibet is now about to advance from Tuna to Kalatso; will he state how far the latter place is from the Indian frontier and from Lhasa; and whether, in view of the seriousness of this step, the Government can give facilities for discussing this enterprise in accordance with Section 55 of 21 and 22 Vic. c. 106, which provides that no military expedition shall be undertaken outside the frontier of India without the consent of Parliament.
  MR. BRODRICK: (1) The Political Mission to Tibet is now about to advance to Kalatso. (2) Kalatso is about 100 miles from the Indian frontier at Rhenok and about 200 miles from Lhasa. (3) As I have already stated in this House,
  838
  His Majesty's Government do not regard the fact that an escort accompanies the Mission as necessitating any action under Section 55 of the Government of India Act, 21 and 22 Vic. cap. 106.

  Tibet Mission—Views of Chinese Government.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will state in what terms, and by what document, the concurrence of the Chinese Government was expressed with reference to the British advance into Tibetan I territory; whether orders have been given to Colonel Younghusband for a I further advance; and what are the instructions in case such advance is I resisted by the Tibetans.
  MR. BRODRICK: In their letter to Mr. Townley, of the 13th July last, the Chinese Government accepted Khambajong in Tibet as the meeting place of the | Commission. Further, in his note of the 22nd December, the Chinese Minister suggested Yatung, also in Tibet, as the meeting place. For the reasons stated in Lord Lansdowne's Note to the Chinese Minister, of the 23rd November, His Majesty's Government have been unable to consent to stop the further advance of the Mission into Tibet. Orders have been given for the Mission to advance to Gyangtse. Colonel Younghusband has been instructed to resort to force only in the event of his advance being forcibly resisted, or his communications endangered.

  British Trade with Morocco.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the sum total of: British trade with Morocco; what I foreign Power enjoys the maximum I financial control in the Sultanate; and what steps will be taken by His Majesty's Government to safeguard British commercial interests in that country.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): The total value of the trade between this country and Morocco in 1903 was £1,448,509, distributed as

  839
  follows: —Imports, £559,509; exports of British and Irish produce, £691,336; and exports of foreign and colonial produce, £197,664. No foreign Power exercises financial control in the Sultanate, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware. It would obviously be impossible for me to make any announcement in reply to the latter part of the Question, but in any arrangement which may be come to with regard to Morocco, care will be taken to safeguard British commercial interests in that country.

  Shanghai and Nanking Railway.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, having regard to the fact that, under the terms, of the agreement signed by the British and Chinese Corporation, Limited, and the Chinese Government on the 9th July last, the Corporation undertook to provide a capital of £3,250,000 for the construction of the Shanghai and Nanking Railway by the 9th instant, and that the requisite loan has not yet been arranged, will he ascertain whether the Chinese Government have assented to an extension of the period during which the money may be found, and the nature of any such extension.
  EARL PERCY: We understand that it has been mutually agreed between the Chinese Government and the Corporation to postpone for the time being the issue of the loan in accordance with the terms of the contract which provides for the contingency of an unfavourable condition of the money market in the event of an outbreak of war.
  MR. WEIR: Can the noble Earl give the period of the postponement?
  EARL PERCY: No, Sir.

  European Claims on Venezuela.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the amounts of the claims of Great Britain, Germany, and Italy, respectively, against Venezuela, recognised as preferential by the tribunal of arbitration; also the total amounts of the claims of
  840
  the three countries, respectively, against Venezuela.
  EARL PERCY: The claims in respect of which the three Powers are entitled to preferential treatment under the award of the tribunal of arbitration are as follows: German claims, recognised by the Mixed Commission, amount to 1,673,527 Marks (about £82,848). The British claims already admitted amount to £363,381, while others amounting to £27,168 are still before the umpire. In the case of Italy, claims to the amount of 2,810,255 Bolivares (about £110,205) were admitted by Venezuela. Awards to the amount of £66,238 have been made by the Mixed Commission: and claims to the amount of £1,296,419 are still under its consideration. All the claims of this country outstanding at the date of the Agreement of 13th February, 1903, other than those already settled by Venezuela, were submitted to I the Mixed Commission. His Majesty's Government are not aware that either Italy or Germany have any other outstanding claims.

  Niu-chwang—Withdrawal of British Warship.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is proposed to withdraw H. M. S. "Espiégle" from Niu-chwang; whether the British Consul has protested against such withdrawal; and whether, considering the position of the British residents in that place, he will give orders that the gunboat shall remain there for their protection.
  EARL PERCY: Last month His Majesty's Consul urged the retention of a British man-of-war at Niu-chwang during the war, but, for the reasons I stated in my answer of the 16th instant, it was decided after consultation with the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty and on the advice of the Commander-in-Chief on the China Station, that it would not be desirable to retain His Majesty's Ship "Espiégl" at the port. The newly appointed Commander-in-Chief has since been also consulted and has advised that the former decision be adhered to.

  Macedonian Gendarmerie Reforms.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can say whether the British Ambassador has recently had a prolonged interview with the Grand Vizier in which he urged the immediate acceptance of the scheme for the reform of the Macedonian gendarmerie; if so, what was the date of that interview; and, what reply, if any, has been received from the Government of the Porte.
  EARL PERCY: His Majesty's Ambassador had a prolonged interview with the Grand Vizier on the 21st instant, when he urged the immediate acceptance of the scheme without modification. The reply of the Porte to the Austro-Hungarian and Russian Ambassadors' note was received on the 25th, and its general tenor is understood to be of a satisfactory character.

  Estate of late Thomas Flynne.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether inquiries have been made of the American Consul regarding the estate of the late Thomas Flynne, a British subject, who died in Warwick, Rhode Island, in February, 1902; and, if so, will he state whether a reply has been received.
  EARL PERCY: A reply has just been received from His Majesty's Consul-General at New York. The substance of it will be communicated to the hon. Member in an official letter.

  Aden and Somali Coast Mails.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAG-GREE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General what is the present arrangement for carrying on the postal service between Aden and the Somali coast, and the expenditure on that service; whether it is in contemplation to make any alteration in that arrangement; and, if so, what would be the estimated cost thereof.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): I have no information of recent date as to the arrangements in force for the conveyance of mails between Aden and the
  842
  Somali coast. To the best of my belief, a local steamship company is employed for the purpose; but the service is not provided by the Imperial Post Office; and I am not in a position to furnish the particulars asked for.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAG-GREE: Cannot the noble Lord give some idea of the estimated cost?
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir.

  National Expenditure.
  SIR EDGAR VINCENT: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the desirability of including in his financial statement for the coming year all expenditure to be incurred, whether provided from revenue or borrowed.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): It has been the practice of late years to make the inclusion, and I will remember to bear the hon. Member's wish in mind in connection with the next Budget statement.

  The Corn Tax.
  MR. HUNTER CRAIG: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is his intention to re-impose the corn tax of last year.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I must refer the hon. Member to my answer to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Banffshire on 18th February†.
  MR. HUNTER CRAIG: Do I under-stand that that still expresses the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I should not have referred the hon. Gentleman to the answer if it did not hold good.

  Foreign Money in the London Market.
  MR. ROSE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state approximately the amount of foreign
  † See. (4) Debates, cxxx., 247.

  843
  money at present employed in the London money market, in sterling bills of exchange, Treasury bills, and the short money market.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. I have no available data.

  Cost of the Whitaker Wright Prosecution.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government, in consenting to pay the costs attendant upon the prosecution of Mr. Whitaker Wright, have considered the outlay incurred by those private gentlemen who compelled the prosecution; and if they will be held free from loss.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): Perhaps the bon. Member will allow me to answer this Question. The Treasury will pay the costs of the application to the Court for a direction to the Official Receiver to prosecute. They will also pay the net costs incurred by the Official Receiver in respect of the prosecution. As regards the other costs referred to, the Treasury will be prepared to pay them on being satisfied as to the necessity for incurring them and the amount actually expended.
  MR. LAMBERT: Do the Treasury propose to pay only the taxed costs or also those between solictor and client?
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I can add nothing to my reply.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: But certain costs were incurred by these gentlemen who forced the prosecution. Are they to bear the loss, or will the Government recoup them?
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I think that is covered by the last paragraph of my answer.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: Is the noble Lord aware that the costs incurred by these gentlemen only amounted to half of the estimate?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Foreign Hops.
  DR. HUTCHINSON: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the samples of low-grade hops now being imported from the Continent, sent to the Board by the Hop Growers' Association, have been analysed by their experts, with a view to ascertaining their fitness for the manufacture of beer or porter; and, if so, will he state with what results.
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: It is not possible for the Board to express any opinion as to whether the hops to which the hon. Member refers are fit for use in the manufacture of beer or porter, and in any case we have no power to prevent their use for the purpose. It did not appear, therefore, that any advantage would be gained by the analysis of the samples sent to us. If, however, the hon. Member considers the Where is any reason to believe that the use of the hops in question is detrimental to the public health, perhaps he would communicate with my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board on the subject.
  DR. HUTCHINSON: These hops were brought under the notice of the Board five weeks ago. Was it not the business of the Department to see that they were not sold to the public if they were deleterious to health?
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: Questions of the public health are within the province of the Local Government Board.

  Glanders.
  MR. BULL: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the Board of Agriculture, whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to introduce legislation this session dealing with the prevalence of glanders, having regard to the fact that more horses have been attacked by this disease in the Uinted Kingdom in 1904 than in any one of the preceding twenty years.
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: It is the case that there has recently been a considerable increase in the prevalence of glanders, and my noble friend, the President of the Board, has for some time past been in communication with the Treasury and the local authorities in London, Glasgow, and elsewhere, as to the steps to be taken to bring about a better condition of things. The difficulty of more effective administration is more one of finance than of further statutory powers.

  Devonshire Education Aid Grants.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education what was the total amount of aid grant given to schools in the administrative county of Devon for the latest financial year, and what is the amount of the grant substituted for it in the same area by the Education Act, 1902.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): The aid grant given to voluntary schools in the administrative county of Devon for the year ending 31st March, 1903, amounted to £6,637 3s. 11d. The aid grant to necessitous School Boards in this area for the School Board financial year ending September 29th, 1902, amounted to £1,028 1s. 1d.; or a total aid grant of £7,665 5s. The new aid grant, which I may remind the hon. Member is not paid on behalf of the individual schools but in aid of the total expenditure of the council on elementary education, will Amount to about £25,700 for this area.

  The Ladies' Gallery.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will consider the advisability of installing an annunciator in the Ladies' Gallery, in order that the occupants thereof may the better be enabled to follow the debates.
  LORD BALCARRES: This matter will be considered in connection with the preparation of the Estimates for next year.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: How much would it cost?
  LORD BALCARRES: I believe the capital outlay is £60, and the annual maintenance charge £40.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Will the noble Lord consider the desirability of putting annunciators in the public dining and tea rooms?
  LORD BALCARRES: Yes, Sir.

  Scottish Fishing Industry Railway Rates.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, having regard to the fact that the fishing industry is hampered owing to the through rates charged for the carriage of fish from the North of Scotland to the southern markets, will he consider the expediency of addressing a circular letter to the various railway companies concerned with a view to secure a reduction in their charges.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): I may refer the hon. Member to a similar Question addressed to the Board of Agriculture on 16th March.† I am in communication with the President of the Board on the subject.

  Scottish Licensing Act—Early Closing at Dundee.
  MR. WILLIAM McKILLOP: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the proceedings of the magistrates of Dundee on the 10th March, when they agreed to recommend the licence holders to close their premises on Monday, 11th April next, and also recommended certain rules to be followed with reference to plan* of licensed premises lodged with the clerk; whether, in view of the restrictions contained in the recent Scottish Licensing Act, he will, by communication with the magistrates or otherwise, take steps to have such recommendations withdrawn and to prevent similar recommendations being issued in future.
  MR. SCOTT DICKSON: My attention has not been called except by the hon.
  † See. (4) Debates, Cxxxi, 1256.

  847
  Member's Question to the proceedings referred to. There is no local authority in Dundee different from that in other places. But as the operation of the Act transferring powers to the new authorities comes into force in Dundee on the second Tuesday of next month, I do not think it advisable in the meantime to take any action in the matter.

  Irish Land Purchase.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether, at the sale of a congested estate (under the Land Purchase Act of 1903), an inspection may be dispensed with if the price be within the zones and the estate purchased by the tenants directly from the landlord; and whether the term congested estate includes any estate within a scheduled area.
  THE ATTORNEY - GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): The Questions put to me by the hon. Member are mere abstract questions of law on the construction of a particular section of a particular Statute. They may incidentally come up for decision any day before the proper tribunals and I must respectfully decline to answer them.

  Roads and Coonana Boat Slips.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how much money, including cost of superintendence, has been spent during the past twelve months on the slips at Roads and Coonana, county Kerry, respectively; and can he say whether the works have been completed.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): £359 and £811, respectively. The cost of superintendence, which is not included, is approximately £150. The completion of the works has been delayed by the severity of the weather.

  Collection of Irish Land Purchase Annuities.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what
  848
  arrangements have been made for the collection from purchasing tenants of the annuities payable under the Land Purchase Act, 1903; whether representations have been made to him from all the Irish banks, calling attention to the unfairness involved if such collection were to be placed in the hands of the Bank of Ireland alone, as leading up to the withdrawal of the business of a section of their customers; whether he has considered the suggestions made by the banks which, if adopted, would obviate the alleged hardship; whether the Government have come to any decision in the matter; and, if so, what is the nature of that decision.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This matter has not yet been finally settled.

  Irish Fishery Piers.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: On behalf of the hon. Member for North Wexford, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he proposes this session to deal with the question of construction and maintenance of fishery piers in non-congested districts in Ireland.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The matter is receiving my careful consideration, but I am not in a position at present to make any definite statement.

  Dredgers for Irish Ports.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the need of dredgers in many ports of the west coast of Ireland, he will undertake that a suitable one will be provided from the funds available under the Marine Works Act.
  MR. WYNDHAM: A dredger, as I pointed out in reply to the hon. Member for South Wexford†, would be of great use for harbours generally. There is no statutory authority for providing a dredger under the Marine Works Act, But this small capital charge for the benefit of the seafaring population who have derived but little advantage from recent legislation might, I suggest, be
  † See page 246.

  849
  properly placed on the Development Grant.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Does the right hon. Gentleman think one dredger sufficient for the whole country?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, if used continuously.
  MR. HUGH LAW: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the matter in some cases is very urgent in consequence of the silting up that is going on and of the commencement of a new fishing season? Would it not be possible to hire a dredger from some of the harbour authorities pending final arrangements as to purchase?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I will consider that.

  Teaching of the Irish Language.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Board of National Education has recently stated that where instruction in Irish, as an extra subject, is given in lessons of half an hour's duration on five days per week, not more than two of the attendances made in any week can count in the calculation of the attendance necessary to qualify a pupil for special fees; is he aware that, under this system of calculation, although only 100 attendances at school are required, payment can be refused for a pupil who has made 130 attendances; and whether he will represent to the Board that payment should be made in respect of a pupil who has made the requisite number of attendances at the extra class in which Irish is taught, in cases where Irish is taught on every day, and not merely on two days in the week.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Payment of fees can only be made for pupils who have been in bowl fide attendance throughout the extra course, and bonâ fide is defined by the rule as attendance at a day school for 100 days during the school year, and at 75 per cent, of the minimum number of meetings required to constitute a course. The minimum number
  850
  of meetings in the normal school year of forty-six weeks is forty-six of one hour, or ninety-two of half an hour. The object of the rule is to spread the instruction over the entire school year. It does not disqualify a pupil for special fees whose attendances are more frequent than the prescribed minimum, provided the essential condition of bonâ fide attendance is observed. If no such condition were attached to the rule, it would be possible to crowd the attendances into a few months in each year.

  Irish Science and Art Grant.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: On behalf of the hon. Member for North Wexford, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the circular and memorandum recently issued to the principals of technical schools in Ireland by the Department of Agriculture with reference to the Science and Art Grant.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The memorandum is marked "Confidential" and was issued with the object of eliciting the views of persons of experience, I cannot, therefore, consent to lay it on the Table, but I shall be happy to supply the hon. Baronet with a copy, if he has not already seen the document.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Does the phrase "persons of experience" exclude Members of Parliament? Will they not be able to obtain the circular? Ts it not somewhat offensive to say the circular is only intended for persons of experience and that therefore it cannot be laid on the Table?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Apparently the object was to take counsel with persons specially interested in the matter. I will see what can be done to meet the views of the hon. Member.

  Owenmore River.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has yet received the report of the engineer recently sent to inspect the Owenmore River district, in the county of Sligo; and, if so, will he state the nature of the report and say

  851
  whether it recommends any scheme for the drainage of that river.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I referred this Question to the Department of Agriculture for report, but have not yet received it. Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to repeat the Question tomorrow.

  Cork and Fermoy Eailway.
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, having regard to the fact that the Great Southern and Western Railway Company have not fulfilled their obligation to construct the direct railway between Cork and Fermoy, whether he would urge the promoters of the Iveagh-Pirrie motor car system to establish a service between Cork and Fermoy, via White's Cross, Glenville, and Rathcormac, as the interests of the agriculturists in these districts are injuriously affected by the abandonment of the railway project.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The matter is entirely one for the promoters of this scheme of motor traction, but I will communicate the hon. Member's suggestion to them. As I have previously stated, the schemes already taken up are experimental and no fresh schemes will be established until the former have been tested by experience and practical working.

  Athenry Special Court.
  MR. DUFFY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the Press was admitted to the special Court inquiry held at Athenry on the 22nd March and following days; under what statute the Court was held; and if there is any precedent for the action of the police in excluding the friends of the prisoners and the public from the magisterial investigation.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The magisterial inquiry in this case was held on one day only, the 22nd March. Under Section 9, Sub-section 2, of the Petty Sessions Act, 1851, the presiding magistrate in all cases of proceedings for indictable offences is empowered to exclude the public if he
  852
  considers that the ends of justice will thereby be best answered. The charge against the accused in the present case was an indictable one and the pr siding magistrate was of opinion that in the interests of justice the public should not be admitted. This course is not infrequently adopted in the initial stages of proceedings in indictable offences of a serious nature.

  Ennis Urban Council—Auditors' Surcharges.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that Messrs. Linnane, Honan, and Clancy of the Ennis Urban Council have been surcharged by the Local Government Board in the sum of £20 in respect of money paid as compensation for the site of artisans' dwellings; and whether, in view of the fact that this money was spent in a useful public work in the interest of the labouring classes, he will, under all the circumstances, see that the sealed Order for the surcharge is re-considered.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The surcharge was made on the ground that the person to whom the money was paid had no legal interest in the land acquired and was not entitled to compensation. The decision conveyed by the Board in the sealed Order is final under Section 63 of the Local Government Act, 1898, and there is no power to re-open the case.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Seeing that these gentlemen had no knowledge that they were acting illegally, cannot the right hon. Gentleman further inquire into the matter with a view to remitting the surcharge.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am afraid further inquiry would not alter the fact that the decision is final and the case cannot be re-opened.

  Vagrancy in Ireland.
  MR. HUGH LAW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the inquiry into the question of vagrancy, foreshadowed by the President of the Local Government

  853
  Board, in reply to the deputation of the Poor Law Conference on 23rd February, will be extended to Ireland in respect, of those points not covered by the terms of reference to the Vice-regal Commission upon Poor Law Reform.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I see no objection in principle, and will communicate with my right hon. friend the President of the English Department on the subject.

  Development Grant—Trinity College's Share.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state whether the entire sum of £5,000, set aside for Trinity College from the Development Grant under the Land Act of 1903, has been placed in official hands for the account of the present financial year; if not, what portion has been so allocated; and whether, in the event of immediate owners holding under the college not taking advantage of the Act, will the amount revert to the benefit of the Irish Development Grant.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No, Sir; the money has not yet been lodged to the account of the public trustee. Section 39 (3) of the Act provides that the unexpended balances of the yearly grant of £5,000 shall be invested by the public trustee and be available in subsequent years for the purposes indicated by the section, but for no others.
  MR. FLYNN: If there are no sales will the money be returned?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The money is only available for certain purposes, but if those purposes do not arise then some other step will have to be taken.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Has there been any sale of Trinity College property up to the present?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have no knowledge.

  Horse Breeding in Ireland.
  MR. ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the action of the
  854
  Agricultural Department in selecting a stallion, the property of Andrew G. Elliott, for the benefit of the small farmers in the Portumna and Loughrea district; and, in view of the fact that the farmers interested object to the selection, will he bring the matter under the notice of the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture, in order that the intention of the Act may not be frustrated.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Department is satisfied that the stallion is suitable for the requirements of the scheme. This thorough-bred horse is not the property of Mr. Elliott, but has been leased to him by the owner, the hon. Member for North Fermanagh.
  MR. ROCHE: Have the farmers not refused to take advantage of the selection?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I believe some have.
  MR. ROCHE: And by my advice.

  Irish Poor Law Superannuation Bill.
  MR. BLAKE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Poor Law Superannuation (Ireland) Bill has been referred to the actuary to whom the former Bill was referred, and who reported the total inadequacy, even on very favourable assumptions, of the proposed local rate to meet the proposed liabilities; whether the actuary has expressed any, and what, opinion as to the adequacy of the finance of the present Bill; whether, if not, he will obtain such opinion; whether he has had any correspondence with the promoters of the Bill, or expressed to them any, and what, opinion on itsfinance, and as to his attitude towards the Bill: and whether he will consent to a Return of such correspondence.
  MR. WYNDHAM: On the 21st of January I informed the promoters that I was unable to suggest any alterations in the draft of the Bill proposed to be introduced this session, which would overcome the objections detailed in the report of the actuary on the Bill of 1901. That Bill differed in no material

  855
  respect from the draft submitted to me. I also pointed out that the promoters would be well advised to consider the desirability of employing a competent actuary to report to them whether the further measure proposed could not be reconstructed upon a basis which would stand the test of actuarial criticism, and that if this were done they would be in a better position to secure the support of local authorities to their proposals. I am still of opinion that this course should be adopted. I shall be happy to supply the hon. Gentleman with a copy of the correspondence between myself I and the promoters. I do not propose at present to lay it on the Table.

  Police Infringement of the Licensing Act in Ireland.
  MR. NOLAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if any action has been taken by the Inspector General of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the case of a constable belonging to that force, who admitted at Dunleer Petty Sessions on 8th December last that he sent his own child (under age) to a public house for half a gallon of porter in an open vessel; and whether the constable in question is still doing duty in the district.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The occurrence took place twelve months ago and the fact was elicited in the cross-examination of the constable, who had overlooked the requirements of a statute which at that time had but recently come into operation. He was cautioned and remains on duty in the district.

  Irish School Attendance Regulations.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the promised reduction of the average attendance required in Irish national schools for the first assistant from sixty to fifty will apply to teachers at present in the service but under notice of dismissal or withdrawal of salary, because the yearly average of their schools has not reached sixty, but is not below fifty; and, in the case of new appointments, whether the rule begins with 1st April, 1904.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am in communication with the Commissioners on this subject.

  Sale of the Wren and Stokes Estate.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what is the cause of the delay in the sale of the estate of Wren and Stokes (Record No. 25), in Chancery since 1882: whether the Receiver receives a fixed salary of £200 a year for the management of this estate; whether inquiries will be made as to the management and steps taken to have the estate sold.
  MR. WYNDHAM: In March, 1899, the Master of the Rolls made an Order that the estate should be sold in the Land Judge's Court, subject, however, to the further Order of the Court of Chancery in the event of proceedings for sale. Liberty was given to the parties to make such application to the Court as they might be advised, but no such application has since been made.

  Irish Science and Art Department —Unexpended Balances.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: On behalf of the hon. Member for North Wexford. I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what happened to the £58,629 balance unexpended of the £108,174 voted for Ireland in connection with the Science and Art Department from 1890 to 1897, and what the Government propose to do in the matter.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I cannot answer the hon. Baronet's Question as I am unable to trace the figures which he quotes.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: But the right hon. Gentleman is aware of the fact that while certain sums have been voted for education in Ireland in past years very much less has actually been spent. If the figures are incorrect will the right hon. Gentleman inquire and explain what has become of the unexpended balance.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he had hoped that the hon. Baronet who put down the Question but was not in

  857
  his place to put it would have been able to give him some data. He was quite unable to see how he arrived at the figures given.
  ME. JOHN REDMOND: I have no doubt the hon. Baronet will supply the information to the right hon. Gentleman.

  Whisky Frauds in Ireland.
  MR. NOLAN: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a consignment of patent German spirit was some time ago received at an Excise bonded warehouse in Ballina; and, if so, will he state whether the consignees are selling it to the public as Irish whisky.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The Board of Inland Revenue have no information on this subject.

  Postal Arrangements in Queen's County.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he received a renewed application on behalf of the inhabitants of Raheen, Queen's county, asking, as an instalment of a former request, that at least a post office with one daily delivery should be granted to the locality; and whether, in view of the fact that the district includes the residences of local clergymen, a Roman Catholic church, two schools, and about 300 inhabitants, who are at present deprived of facilities for procuring stamps or posting letters, he will favourably consider the application.
  LORD STANLEY: As I have informed the hon. Member in my letter of the 25th instant the cost of the existing postal service to Raheen is very high in proportion to the amount of correspondence, and I regret, therefore, that further facilities would not be warranted.
  MR. DELANY: I beg also to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will give a second daily delivery of letters to the inhabitants of Graigue, Camira, Upper and Lower Forest, Drina, New Mills, and Cloncannon, Mountmellick, Queen's county, as a second delivery
  858
  has been sanctioned to certain houses in the locality.
  LORD STANLEY: I have made inquiry on the question of affording a second daily delivery of letters in the district to which the hon. Member refers, but I regret to find that owing to the small number of letters for the residents, the additional expense which would necessarily be incurred in meeting their wishes would not be justified.

  Dublin and Blessington Steam Trams.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the loss of life and property caused by the Dublin and Blessington steam tram line since it was started some fifteen years ago, he will order an inquiry to be made into the working and management of the system, including the stability of the permanent way and the condition of the rolling stock.
  THE PRESIDENT or THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question. The Board of Trade have power, under the authorising Order in Council, to cause inquiry to be made by one of their officers into the working and maintenance of this line, upon a representation made to them by either of the county councils interested, or by twenty ratepayers of a guaranteeing area, or by either of the county surveyors. If such a representation is received, I will consider the question of ordering an inquiry.

  Live Shrapnel Shells at Rathcourseg.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the verdict of the jury at the co oner's inquest held at Rathcourseg, county Cork, on Monday last, in connection with the death of naval pensioner Daniel Driscoll by the explosion of alive shrapnel shell; whether he is aware that such shells are frequently strewn about the strand at Rathcourseg, and that they are also liable to be hauled up by fishing nets; whether steps will be taken to give effect to the recommendation of the jury

  859
  with a view to prevent similar accidents in future; and whether compensation will be given to the widow and family of this man.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRBTYMAN,): Yes, Sir. My attention has been called to this incident, but as there is no suggestion that the Navy have anything to do with the firing of these shells that are found at Rathcourseg in the neighbourhood of two land forts, the matter does not appear to be one for the Admiralty. Practice with naval guns using live shell is only carried out by His Majesty's ships at sea and under conditions which render occurrences of this kind quite impossible.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Will the hon. Gentleman recommend the War Office to consider the question of compensation?
  MR. PRETYMAN: That does not rest with the Admiralty.

  The Irish International Exhibition Meeting.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he would ask the Chief Secretary a Question of urgent public importance, namely, whether he had any information as to the alleged dispersal by violence of a meeting in Dublin by the police.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he had no information, but he would make inquiries in the course of the afternoon.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg, then, to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House to call attention to a definite matter of urgent matter of public importance, namely, the conduct of certain members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police in dispersing by force and violence a peaceful meeting of citizens on Thursday night last.
  MR. SPEAKER: I could not accept that Motion with the prospect of the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill being taken to-day. The hon. Member can discuss the action of the police on that Bill, and it is a very well known Rule that an hon. Member cannot
  860
  move the adjournment of the House when there is a debate coming on on which it is open to him to raise, the same subject.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Might I ask you, Sir, very respectfully, whether, if the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill comes on, you will call me?
  MR. SPEAKER: I need not say that I will bear in mind the hon. Member's wishes, but I cannot enter into pledges.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDasked whether, in view of the fact that he might not be called on in the debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill, and as this was a matter involving the right of public meeting, he might not move the adjournment.
  MR. SPEAKER: I think not. The hon. Member's Question was asked after five minutes to three o'clock, and as he stated that it was an urgent matter of public importance, I could not stop him until I had heard what it was. I am clearly of opinion that it was not a matter of urgent public importance, and the Question might have been put on the Paper. I cannot allow the hon. Member to move the adjournment.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he had had no opportunity of putting the Question on the Paper. The Rules precluded his getting an answer by the holidays.
  MR. SPEAKER: I have given my decision, and I must abide by it.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDgave notice that he would raise the matter on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

  Municipal Trading—Select Committee's Report.
  MR. CHAPMAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether His Majesty's Government purpose bringing in a measure this session to carry out the recommendations contained in the Report of the Joint Select Committee on Municipal Trading of last session in regard to the audit of the accounts of local authorities.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): In answer to my hon. friend I have to say that the President of the Local Government Board has naturally given very careful consideration to the recommendations of the Joint Committee, but he cannot accept them in their entirety. As regards the particular subject in which my hon. friend is interested—I mean the audit of the borough accounts—he thinks and hopes that with some modifications it might be possible ultimately to adopt the Committee's recommendation. But this is a controversial matter, and I do not think it would be possible to deal with it in the course of the present session.

  Cabinet Memoranda.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the late Colonial Secretary the Member for West Birmingham presented to his colleagues in the Government any pamphlet, memorandum or report embodying his views upon South African questions; if so, whether this writing contained any reference to the question of labour for the mines; and whether, in view of the fact that the expense of the right hon. Gentleman's visit was paid out of National funds, the Government will now publish this writing.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not quite sure that I understand the purport o* the hon. Gentleman's Question, but I should rather think he is making an inquiry into Cabinet transactions. In that case, I need hardly say, I can give him no answer.

  Licensing Law in Scotland.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that the magistrates of Edinburgh and of Glasgow have exercised their discretion by ordering the public houses in those cities to be closed at ten o'clock; and, if so, does he contemplate any legislation for the purpose of taking away the discretion which they have thus exercised.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am greatly puzzled about this Question. I do not
  862
  know whether the hon. Baronet has some subtle joke at the root of it; but, as regards the fact to which he refers, it is true that the two town Councils have taken the course which he alludes to. It is also the fact, I need hardly say, that we do not intend to have any legislation on the subject in the course of this session or, so far as I know, in any other session.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: Is there any intention to compensate these poor publicans?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have no ground for believing that they will be injured.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I beg to ask whether the First Lord of the Treasury has any further statement to make on the business before the adjournment and the business to be taken first thing after the holidays.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I propose to put down for introduction to-morrow, under the so-called ten minutes rule, the Aliens Bill. Immediately that is over I shall make the Motion for the holidays. I suggest that we rise tomorrow until the Tuesday week following. There is also the Third Reading of the Telephones Bill, which I hope will be regarded as non-controversial, to be taken to-morrow before the dinner hour. There are several private Motions on the Paper for the Evening Sitting. On Tuesday, 12th April, I propose to take the Navy Estimates—Votes 9, 8, and 2. The Supply for Thursday, 14th April, will be Army Estimates. I cannot pledge myself as to the Monday following, as my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer desires to consult me on a matter of business connected with, the Budget. I propose, quite early after the reassembling, to introduce the Licensing Bill—in all probability I shall do that on Wednesday, 13th April.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: I hope the original proposal to move the Speaker out of the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates on Monday, 18th

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April, will be adhered to. There is an Irish Motion to be moved, and we shall not be able to do this if the Motion to get the Speaker out of the Chair is postponed till the Thursday, as we have a public engagement in Ireland on that day.
MR. A. J. BALFOUK: The hon. and learned Gentleman shall have definite notice before the House separates of the final arrangements in regard to this matter, and I will take into consideration the arguments he has submitted.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: When will the Budget be int oduced?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should think quite early after Easter, but I do not think I can say the exact date.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee): Will the right hon. Gentleman say why he presses for so early a date for the Shipbuilding Vote, which amounts to something like £17,000,000. We have had six days given to Army Estimates, and the Admiralty is well supplied with money for some weeks to come.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not wedded to the order I have mentioned, and if there is any more convenient course I shall be willing to adopt it. I must remind the House, however, that if I were to put down business in which nobody took any interest on the first day after the holidays we should have to meet a day earlier.

NEW BILLS.
  FALSE CHARACTERS BILL.
  "For the better prevention of giving False Characters to servants, and of offences connected therewith," presented by Mr. Skewes-Cox; supported by Mr. Bousfield, Mr. Atherley-Jones, Mr. Kimber, and Mr. O'Malley; to be read a second time upon Monday, 18th April, and to be printed. [Bill 142.]

  MARKET GARDENERS' COMPENSATION BILL.
  "To remove certain doubts as to the meaning of the Market Gardeners' Com-
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  pensation Act, 1895," presented by Colonel Long; supported by Mr. Raymond Greene, Sir Thomas Esmonde, and Mr. Channing; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 14th April, and to be printed. [Bill 143.]

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
THE SECRETARY FOE SCOTLAND (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,),in asking leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws relating to education in Scotland and for other purposes connected therewith, said, I do not think I need offer any apology to the House for taking one more step forward in regard to Scotch education in what I hope may be a direction consonant with Scotch tradition and Scotch wont. We have in Scotland in the matter of education the most valuable asset which a people can have and that is, we have a people who are anxious to be educated, and we are, through the developments of the past, singularly free from that religious difficulty which has tended so much to obscure the true cause of education elsewhere. We are all proud of, and many of us look back with a sort of affectionate regret, to the days of the old parish schoolmaster. His success consisted in two things — to a great extent it consisted in his own ability as a teacher; and it consisted also in the fact that in those quiet days he could pick out the best boy and give the best of himself to bring that boy to a stage far above his fellows. Education in his hands did not stop at any particular standard, but it went on as long as the boy was with him and as far as their mutual ability permitted. Accordingly, when we come to modern times, and when we look at the Act of 1872 under which our modern education has been carried on, we shall find that throughout that Act there never is mention in one single sentence of those phrases which are no doubt convenient enough — I mean the phrases primary and secondary education. It is education that is spoken of and education alone. That Act worked into the School Board system the old burgh schools which — using the words as convenient nomenclature — we should properly designate as secondary schools.

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Under that Act there has grown up a very natural development of the same idea in the adding to many of the ordinary schools of a higher department. Since the time of the passing of that Act there has grown up a pressing need, which is every day accentuated, of provision for technical education. The Scotch people have, in so far as in them lay, fully recognised that they are anxious to march with the spirit of the time, and accordingly they have given of the Imperial funds which come to Scotland to further in various ways the cause of education. It is not for us Scotchmen to forget that it was in obedience to the Scotch demand that free education in the primary grades, which has now come upon the Imperial Exchequer all over the country, was first conceded. Time and again, when money which has been placed at Scotch disposal under what is known as the Equivalent Grant, a very considerable sum of that money has been given to the cause of education. But the piecemeal development has naturally had its defects. Those defects are principally of two classes. They rather encouraged the tendency of educational institutions to overlap, and, in the distribution of money, between the clamant cries of burghs and counties I here has also been the danger—sometimes, I am afraid, not at all unreal— that money for such subjects as technical education has been frittered away because of the very smallness of the contribution to a particular neighbourhood.
Now, I think a consideration of these two defects and of the Scotch idea which I have touched upon, really supplies us with the key of the situation. What you obviously need in a proper educational system is that there should be, first of all, a comprehensive survey of the needs all over a particular district. Facilities within that district should be provided which are suitable to the locality with which you are dealing, you should be able to avoid wasteful overlapping of educational effort, and one authority should control all the different branches of what is truly one education. You must look at the student's career as a whole, and not look upon it as cut up into primary, intermediary,
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secondary, University, and so on, and you must have adequate local knowledge on your controlling body to thoroughly provide for local needs. If you can carry out scheme of that so it then it seems to me that you preserve the old Scottish idea of there being no division in the different portions of a career in education, and, at the same time, you adapt it to modern circumstances which make the old situation of parish schoolmasters impossible. Now, if I have carried the House along with me so far, I really think that much that comes after will follow truly as a corollary of that first position. In the first place, it is quite evident that the present system of School Boards in Scotland cannot stand because, excellent as his been the work done by the School Boards in the prosecution of primary education, when you come to secondary education and technical education it is quite certain that the School Board area is necessarily too small.
Now, if the present School Boards are displaced, whom are you to put in their stead? One obvious expedient would be of course to select, as was done in England, the county councils, but there are, aft r grave consideration, two reasons why I think the county councils should not be adopted in Scotland. In the first place, we have in Scotland what we have not in England, a universal system of School Boards which has worked very I well during the time it has been in existence. And, in the second place, the peculiar position of the Scotch burghs makes it very difficult to treat the county council as the education authority. The Scotch burghs' feeling is very strong, I might almost say it is sentimentally strong, but besides that, of course, the Scotch burghs are to a great extent the possessors of the secondary schools, and if you want, as want, to weave the whole education authority into one, it is quite obvious that you could not take the county council in which the burghs proper—I mean to say the Royal and Parliamentary burghs—are not represented, and mike it the educational authority. Upon the whole matter, therefore, I have come to be clearly of opinion that it would not be in consonance with Scotch opinion at this time

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to take the county council as the education authority. If, therefore, you are not going to do that you will then have to settle what area you will take for your new body. Well, there is a general proposition in regard to area with which I think everyone will agree, that in taking new administrative areas you ought always to take them if possible with the same boundaries as older administrative areas. There is nothing so bad as having various administrative areas with overlapping and intersecting boundaries. You need not, of course, take precisely the same area which for some other purposes of local government has been selected, but at least you ought to take something that is the exact sum of a certain number of smaller areas. Now, in Scotland we seem to have an area suggested and ready at hand, and that is the district area of the county council. It, of course, owed its origin to the County Council Acts of 1889, and it was created, no doubt primarily, merely for the purpose of roads, but it has already been largely used for other administrative purposes, notably, for example, in the matter of public health. It is well understood. The boundaries are well known. It peculiarly lends itself to the treatment of the burghs, and also it is, last but not least, of a very appropriate size—that is to say, that the class of body you would have would be of manageable size, not too big, and not, at the same time, too small. I have said it particularly lends itself to the treatment of the burghs. I would remind the House what I said about the burghs possessing the secondary schools, and I would remind those hon. Members who are not so familiar with Scotch local government, as some of us are, that the police burghs already have representation on the county councils, every police burgh being necessarily a district of the county council. There are, at the same time, certain burghs in Scotland which differ so widely in their circumstances from all others that they obviously demand separate treatment. I mean the great burghs of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, and Aberdeen. Nobody supposes that you could throw them into the counties which surround them, and, accordingly, in the Bill, there is separate treatment for these burghs.
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Now, having asked the House to follow me in the way in which, I do not say so much I have come as I have been driven, to the plan which I suggest, because I shall venture to say that the more you look at it you will find it is the inevitable outcome of the general principle I first laid down, I snail now, with what brevity and clearness I can, explain to the House the exact provisions of the Bill. There will be, as I have already indicated, a School Board for each district.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Will it be elected?
MR. A.GRAHAM MURRAY: I will tell you about the franchise in a moment. The School Board will be elected ad hoc if you like, certainly for no other purpose except that of the School Board. The district, as I have already explained, means the district of every county, and all burghs, be they Royal, or Parliamentary, or police, fall into the districts which surround them. As regards police burghs, of course, no further arrangement is necessary, because they all form divisions of the county council, but as regards Royal and Parliamentary burghs they will have to have separate representation—that is to say they will have to elect so many members of the School Board. The only other districts are the four enumerated districts of Edinburgh, which includes Leith; Glasgow, which includes Govan; Dundee, and Aberdeen. These form separate communities by themselves. Of course there are one or two counties not divided into districts at all. In that case the whole county becomes the area, but these are few in number, as hon. Members know. The number of members of which each Board is to consist is to be settled by the Department, which will lay the result of their deliberations on the Table of Parliament. But there will be this check. There must be a minimum of one for each electoral division. I could easily give hon. Members a sort of idea of what the various School Boards would be, but after the most careful consideration, I came to the conclusion that it was far better—with that proviso that there should be at least one as a minimum—to leave it to the working

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out of the the Department rather than append it in a schedule to the Bill. It would be very cumbersome, and I think there would be a great deal of most unnecessary cavilling, and, after all, it is only leaving to the Department work which it has been doing without cavil at all, because under the Act of 1872 it had the duty of settling and altering the number of the School Board.
ME. BRYCE: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain whether it is merely the numbers that are to be left to the Department.
MR. A.GRAHAMMURRAY: As to the number of members, the right hon. Gentleman will see (hat, so far as the electoral divisions are concerned, I have put in a minimum of one. That almost settles itself. The only case in which you want an arrangement is where you take a Royal burgh in a district. Well, then you must give that Royal burgh so many members in the School Board correlating to its position and authority in the district.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Is it on the basis of population?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Well, I do not think you can go by a hard and fast rule of having regard to population. That is just the class of consideration which will be kept in view by the Department in order to give proper representation to the various districts of a county.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is to be the number of electoral districts. Does he mean the parishes?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I mean one member for each electoral division. I think the right hon. Gentleman, although a Scotchman, has not taken much active part in Scotch local government, and he has forgotten that districts of counties are divided into electoral divisions. They do not correspond with the parishes at all and they vary a great deal. That is the reason why one cannot have a cut and dried schema for making a certain
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number. For instance, in Mid Lanark there are no fewer than forty electoral divisions, and in one portion of Aberdeenshire—Alford—there are four with quite as large a territory. There are great differences in that way, and accordingly you could not do it by any kind of formula. That would be impossible. At the same time I do not think that the working out of it in practice is at all difficult.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: My point is that the parishes are disregarded.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The parishes are disregarded in this matter. The right hon. Gentleman will hear how they come in afterwards. These School Boards are to be the public education authority for all branches of education within their district. They are to b ' elected upon the county council franchise and, of course, the burgh franchise, which hon. Members know is the same. There are certain transitory provisions to bring the Act into operation, but, after the Act is going, the election will be on the same day as the county council election, and on the same day as the burgh council election, so as to avoid the multiplication of elections. But, of course, as there are many schools scattered up and down a district, and as it is very advisable to maintain that local interest in the schools which has done so much, we propose that each school shall have local managers. These local managers are to consist to the extent of one-third of members of the education body itself—I mean the School Board—and to the extent of two-thirds of persons appointed by the parish council where the school is locally situated. To those local managers are to be delegated such powers as the education authority think fit, but with two exceptions. They are to have nothing to do with, and they are not to have delegated to them, either the appointment or the dismissal of teachers, or the question of borrowing money. There is no par: of the Bill to which I have given more careful consideration than the question of the local managers. It would be a great pity if you squandered the amount of local interest which he

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done so much for the schools in the past. At one time my own feeling was very strongly in avour of putting into the Bill the powers which must be delegated to the local managers, because we cannot help feeling that if local managers are used as no more than mere caretakers of the premises you cannot get the best men to do that son of work. There were, however, so many obvious difficulties, that I had to abandon that scheme. I only hope that the good sense of the education authority, coupled with the fact that one-third of the managers are to hi of their own number, will persuade them to delegate in the most ample manner as is consistent with their own paramount authority. As to the appointment or dismissal of teachers—after all the question of improving the teacher is at the bottom of the question, and anything we can do to improve the condition of the teachers is all to the good, provided only that we do not make our teacher our masters instead of our servants. One of the great difficulties of the past system in regard to the teachers has been not altogether the question of money, but that with thee small School Boards the country teacher had no career. One great advantage which I hope will How from this scheme, if adopted, is that, the educational area being much larger, there will be a chance of a teacher being moved round and round in that educational area. A man will no longer feel that, if he goes to a small country school, he will bury himself; but that he will have from the education authority, at least, certain chances of promotion. It will, also, I hope, to a certain extent, get rid of the occasional —they were only occasional—but sometimes very capricious dismissals of the teachers by a very small body.
The duty of the School Board so constituted will be, first of all, to take a comprehensive survey of the needs of the district and the duties laid upon them in order to make suitable educational provision for the district. There is a power in the Department to bring to book School Boards which do not rise to the full extent of their duty. The correlative powers of the School Boards are very large. They were considerable in the past, and, as a natural development of
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the system, they had established higher grade departments in many schools. We have never had, what I may naturally call, a Cockerton case in Scotland; but "evil communications corrupt good manners," and last autumn an ingenious parish council in my own county thought it good to start a Cockerton case; and started it. It was successful before the Sheriff Substitute; but the Sheriff Substitute's decision was over-ruled by the Sheriff Principal; and there the case necessarily came to an end. But there were certain dicta of learned Judges quoted in that case which caused a certain disquietude in some minds as to whether these higher grade departments, and other provisions of secondary education, were, or were not, legal. It seemed a pity to leave that in doubt, and there are provisions in this Bill which will lay that matter completely at rest. The School Boards are given not only the old powers—because the Act of 1872 and the scheme are not in any way repealed —but a great many extra powers which have been found in practice to be wanted. In particular, they are allowed to help any educational institutions within their boundaries, whether they are managed by themselves or not. There does not seem, according to the Scotch system—which, of course, leaves it to the electors to capture any particular area, and, having captured it, to make such provision as they like for religious education as well as other—there does not seem, and there cannot be, any logical claim by any person not in a School Board for direct aid from the rates. But, at the same time, there is a great deal of proper educational effort which does much for the children of Scotland conducted in schools outside the pale of the School Boards. In particular, the Roman Catholics educate a great many children —if you take the whole of Scotland, although the districts are few. Therefore, I have not shrunk from leaving it to the School Boards, if they choose, to give, under such conditions as they like, help out of the rates to those other educational establishments. There is no compulsion upon them to do so, but I should be very much surprised, on the provision being passed, if, as a matter of fact, you did not find that in centres of large educational matters and enlightened

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opinion, such as Glasgow, such assistance is not given.
MR. BLACK: Are the grants to go direct to the schools or to be paid to the School Board?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I am not speaking of the grant. I am speaking of the powers of the School Boards.
MR. THOMAS SHAW: In giving this encouragement to private adventure schools, can that be done under the conditions set forth b}7 the School Boards?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Yes. The School Boards in this matter are entirely their own masters, and the Department has nothing to do with it. They need not do it except upon conditions.
There are several other powers dealing with smaller matters. There are outlying districts where shepherds and such people live with their children—and where it is impossible, without ruinous expenditure, to have schools within the roach of these children. I have put in the Bill, for the first time, a power on the part of the School Boards to make such provision, for transit or otherwise, as will bring these outlying children to places where they can get proper education. There is also a power given to start bursaries for the encouragement of promising children who are obviously able to take advantage of being transferred to higher class schools. There are powers also, in the matter of technical education, for School Boards to join together so as to utilise in concert the services of one particular person as a lecturer in response to the need for special education. I see the hon. Member for Leith Burghs present; and I understand from him that that is precisely what has been done in the county of Fife, and it has been found, as a matter of fact, very satisfactory. There are other powers on minor matters—such as furthering the physical development of the children and also securing medical inspection.
MR. CATHCART WASON: Will medical inspection include dental inspection.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Yes, it will.
MR. JOHN DEWAR: What about the feeding?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: There are some matters connected with the supporting of the children; but the general feeding of the children all round has not been dealt with in the Bill. There is another matter in which I know some people are interested. There is what has been felt to be a peculiar grievance of the school teachers who were alive at the time of the passing of the Teachers' Superannuation Act, in respect that they could not get what they might be expected to get from the School Board, but were forced to take a much smaller pension under the Education Act. That grievance is removed.
MR. EUGENE WASON: Are ladies to be eligible for election to the School Boards?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Oh, yes.
MR. HALUANE: Are the School Boards to give pensions?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Yes, for the future everybody is to be under the General Act.
Now, I pass to the finance proper to the Bill; and by finance I mean, of course, those Imperial contributions which have been made for education. Now, the state of finance is at present really chaotic in its perplexity. It has its origin in the fact that various monies became due by way of Equivalent Grant to Scotland at various intervals. So let me tell the House how the case i stands—I do not say "remind," for I do not think that except the hon. Member for Mid Lanark and myself, any hon. Member could say how these various sums come out. Scotland from time to time was given various sums for education. Let I me first tell the House how the matter stands at present. First of all there is the Local Taxation Customs and Excise Act of 1890, Section 2, 3b. Under that I the sum that comes in is variable, because it depends upon the Customs and Excise, The figures, for instance, for 1900–1–2,

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were, leaving out the small figures, £87,000, £79,000, and £69,000. That money is the money which is distributed according to valuation and population among thirty - three county councils, eighty-five burghs, and 121 police burghs. They may use it in relief of local rates and apply it to education. The amounts spent on education in the last few years were: 1900, £87,000 available, £62,000 spent on education; 1901, £79,000 available, £56,000 spent; 1902, £69,000 available, £50,000 spent. Now the difference between the amount spent and the amount available does not represent a sort of proper proportion, but it represents the fact that some people have wakened up to their educational duties, and that other people have not. Now I have heard this matter discussed many times, and I do not think that this sort of small margin which goes to the relief of local taxation has any effect; and therefore I propose to take the whole for education. The next source of revenue is under the Education and Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1892, Section 2, b. 1. That is a fixed sum of £60,000, which has in the past been spent, £4,700 for higher education and leaving certificates, leaving £55,300 to be distributed amongst thirty-three county committees, five borough committees, and one parish committee, making thirty-nine committees in all, on the basis of population, the allocation being according to schemes drawn up by the committees and sanctioned by the Department. The third source is under the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1898, Section 2, 4, and that also is a variable sum, though it has not varied very much, having been for the last five or six years about £37,000 or £38,000. Of this £2,000 is available for higher inspection and leaving certificate examinations, £2,000 for agricultural education, a certain sum is reserved for grants to central institutions, £13,000 having been paid under this head, and grants to higher class schools, averaging about £25,000. That exhausts what I may call the present sources of supply. The House will remember that a certain amount was distributed directly, but a larger amount was distributed under
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the minutes of the Department, the allocation at the same time being among {he various county councils and borough committees. But besides that there is another fund under the Education and Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1892, Section 2 (5). There is £100,000 which is paid to county councils, boroughs, and police boroughs, and that can go under the law either to the relief of rates or towards schemes of public utility under which is included educational schemes. Very little of that money has, in fact, been paid to education, viz., only £547. Taking what I hope is to be an absolutely comprehensive system, and looking to the flagrant necessity of the nation for real effort in the matter of technical education, I do not think it is too much to ask the country people to make some sacrifice, and I have come to the conclusion we can do all we want to do without imposing any new rate whatever, but I shall ask the House to let me lay violent hands upon this £100,000. What I propose to do is this. I propose to like all these sums I have enumerated and to pool the whole of them into a new fund which shall be called the Education (Scotland) Fund; that is to say, instead of dividing them piecemeal as they have hitherto been divided, I propose to pool the whole money into one fund. I have left out one very great source of supply which I had forgotten for the moment, and which, of course, is the aid grant of last year, viz., the money we are entitled to in respect of the Imperial contribution to England, £219,000.
I propose to pool the whole of these monies, and now I shall read to the House the provisions of the clauses by which these monies are to be paid out. First of all, there is the cost of inspection of higher schools as recognised by the Department, of leaving certificate examinations, and the cost of inspection, which, of course, has been found to work admirably. Secondly, the money will go to establish and maintain a central fund from which the Department shall, as it sees fit, make grants in aid of capital expenditure incurred by local committees, bodies, or managers in providing new institutions

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for the promotion of technical education of an advanced character, and for extending such institutions where they already exist, providing the total amount in any one year shall not exceed the sum of £40,000. I think that carries out what has been greatly recognised as desirable. Thirdly, it will go o making special grants, according to rules and under conditions prescribed from time 'o time in the minutes of the Department; first, in aid of such educational institutions as may be expressly recognised by the Department; secondly, in the provision of higher education whether the schools in which such education is given are eligible for the annual Parliamentary grant or not; and thirdly, in aid of any expenditure incurred by School Boards in establishing bursaries or bringing education within the reach of children in outlying districts. Fourthly, it will go in aid of, or for the provision of, qualified teachers for schools eligible for the Parliamentary grant. Fifthly, it will go in aid of general expenditure incurred by School Boards by paying some l½d. per scholar for every complete 2d. by which the amount of the equivalent grant falls short of 2s. per head. One of the Acts which we have had to repeal is the old necessitous School Board Act, because if we did not repeal that Act in the larger areas of the School Board we should not have got our money out of the Treasury, which, of course, was part of the settlement when we got the aid grant last year. When we got the aid grant we were rather in this difficult position. In England the old Acts, the necessitous School Boards, and the necessitous Voluntary School Acts were swept away and then the new Act came in the place of them; in Scotland those remained. If we had retained the old necessitous School Boards in these larger districts, of course the Treasury would not have had to pay. Therefore, with the assent of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I compounded for a sum of £(50,000. Well, that has to go back again, of course, to the School Boards to help them where they are largely necessitous. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer met me perfectly fairly. It is quite impossible to leave the matter as it is, and I am not going to cavil about
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a thousand or so up or down. After all these purposes, which hon. Members will see correspond practically to the old destination of the money for secondary purposes, of course amplified by these provisions for helping central institutions and for making a nucleus fund for the establishment of new institutions, there remains to distribute a sum which is approximately as nearly as possible the whole balance of the said funds for technical education, and School Boards, and managers of schools not under the charter of the School Boards, in proportion to the average attendance of scholars. That, of course, is just the same as the balance section of the minute which distributed the aid grant last year; that is to say, it gives practically the balance to all the State-aided schools, whether Board schools or not. That ends what I have to explain on finance. In a word it simply comes to this: I take all the old sources of money, and I take in one sense two new ones. I cut out the option which the town councils and county councils have of putting aside a certain amount of the fund under the Local Taxation Act of 1890 for the relief of rates and put it all to education; and I lay violent hands also on the £100,000. By doing that I believe I can make all these great educational reforms without recourse to any new special rate.
Now that ends in one sense the administrative portion of the provisions of the Bill with one exception. There has been, from time to time, mooted in discussion proposals to transfer the Education Department itself from London to Scotland. After very careful consideration I am of opinion that you could not make a greater mistake. I believe that so long as you have an Imperial Parliament in which you have the Minister for Scotland here, it is absolutely necessary that he should be in continual touch with his Education Department, and I am perfectly certain he could not be if that Department were in Scotland. Therefore I should be root and branch opposed to any such proposition. But at the same time I recognise that the feeling which has mooted that proposition is quite a fair feeling. Hon. Members I feel that under the present system there is perhaps scarcely that outlet for

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Scottish opinion to have its proper effect and weight upon Departmental attitude, and they would, so to speak, rather like to have the opportunity of putting their views before the Department rather them learning for the first time by circulated minute what those views are. I may say that in former years hon. Members have often somewhat complained of the number of circulars on Scottish education. I have had compiled, and hope shortly to publish and circulate, a selection of the circulars which show the operative progress during the last few years, and prefixed to that as it were an explanatory memorandum showing as one continuous whole the general scheme and the progress which the Department has mad In order to fulfil a distinct wish propose in the Bill to constitute four provincial councils. These provincial councils are to be constituted by Order in Council and they are to meet at Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Inverness. They are to represent the: views of various bodies interested in higher education, including each of the four Scottish Universities, and in determining (heir constitution special regard to be had to the following special provisions. Each provincial council shall consist to the extent of not less than one-half of its members of persons representing county councils, School Boards, and other local authorities within their province; to the extent of not more than I one-fourth of its members of persons elected by the Senattus Academicun of one or more of the four Scotch Universities, and they are also to contain representatives of central institutions other than Universities, of the governing bodies of schools not under the charge of School Boards, and also two or more persons actively engaged in teaching in schools, whether under the charge of the School Board or not, situated in its province. The function of those councils is to deal with any matters referred to them by the Department, particularly with the adequacy or inadequacy of the provision made for the higher education of the population within any district, the admission or exclusion of institutions or schools to or from participation in the Education Fund, the qualification of the teachers to be
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employed in the institutions, and the curriculum of any individual school; but they are to have an absolute power in their own hands of making a representation to the Department with reference to any matter affecting the educational interests of the province. I hope that by this method we shall enlist in the cause of education all that is best of Scottish authority for the purpose of helping in the deliberations of the Department. I should be absolutely opposed to the provision of paid places for any such work as this. But, on the other hand, I think it of the greatest importance that we should get the Universities to take their part in the work of directing general Scottish education, and under this scheme we shall be able to do so. It is obvious, I think, that you could not simply divide Scotland into four, and assign each part to a University. It would be a fantastic arrangement to assign the Highlands to St. Andrews alone; therefore there would probably be representation of two Universities at least upon each of these councils.
MR. BRYCEasked how the four great School Boards would be affected.
CAPTAIN SINCLAIRasked whether Dundee would go with Aberdeen or with Edinburgh.
ME. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Do not let us get at cross purposes. The provincial councils and the four great School Boards are totally different things. As far as the provincial councils are concerned, they are Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Inverness. They do not go by the cities at all, they are districts or provinces, Inverness being the Highlands, Aberdeen the north-east, and Glasgow and Edinburgh the south-east and west. As far as Dundee is concerned—
CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: It goes with Aberdeen?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: No, it does not go particularly with Aberdeen.
CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: With which province does it go? It must go with one or the other.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The actual provinces are not settled in the Bill. That has to be done by Order in Council. All that is indicated by the Bill are the heads of the provinces. I do not know whether Dundee would go with Edinburgh or with Aberdeen; it is not determined. If the Government had attempted to go into such minutiae it would have meant drafting another Bill upon this Bill. As to the enumerated districts, Edinburgh consists of Edinburgh and Leith; Glasgow consists of Glasgow, Govan, and Partick; Dundee consists of the burgh of Dundee; and Aberdeen consists of the burgh of Aberdeen. All that I have said about School Boards in general is applicable to their position.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: All I desire to know is whether the School Boards in the four great cities are to be the sole education authorities, and have sole financial control of education in those cities.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Absolutely. There is only one slight difference between their position and that of the School Boards of the other districts. In other districts it is compulsory upon the School Board to appoint local managers, whereas in these large burghs it is not; we are leaving them precisely as they were before. Except for that, financially and in every other way, they are in precisely the same position as the other School Boards.
I have explained the provisions of the Bill at some length, and I trust I have not left any uncertain feeling in the minds of hon. Members as to what those provisions really are. I venture, not without hope, to make an appeal to the House in this matter. I am the first to confess that anxiety for the furtherance of the best interests of education in our country is as strong with the Party opposite as with hon. Members behind me. At the opening of the session the right hon. Gentleman opposite made some kindly references to myself in connection with this subject. I venture to think that when he has studied the Bill he will find that I have not played him false. If this Bill is passed and the House will consent to the small sacrifice in the matter of money to which I have
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referred, it will be quite possible, with the resources which the Imperial Parliament with no stinting hand has placed at our disposal, to have what I hope will be the best educational system to be found in the United Kingdom.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I desire to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the manner in which he has introduced this Bill. He has discharged his task with a degree of modesty which does him credit, because this is a large measure, but he has not wasted rhetoric upon it. He has told a plain story such as his countrymen like to hear. There will be a general feeling of relief that the right hon. Gentleman has succeeded in avoiding some of the difficulties which have beset educational legislation affecting the lower end of the island — I mean it is lower on the map —with which we have had to deal during the last two or three years. He has steered between Scylla and Charybdis, but there may still be little rocks and whirlpools with which he may find himself in difficulties. This question opens up a large field. As the Scotchman said of the pigeon-pie, there is a good deal of confused feeling about the Bill, and there may occasionally be a morsel to which his countrymen may exhibit a reluctance, but in the main, the right hon. Gentleman has maintained that which the Scotch people value—viz., the control of their own schools. He has not advanced any artificial or newfangled plans for bringing in superior wisdom to guide the common sense of the Scotch people at large, and he has shown no indication of favouritism or partiality in the manner in which he has dealt with the subject. It would not be desirable for any of us to commit ourselves too deeply on the subject until we and the Scotch people have had an opportunity of reading and studying the Bill. It is a fortunate thing that the Bill should be published now, so that a full opportunity for such examination may be given.
The only matter to which the right lion. Gentleman referred—upon which I look with a certain amount of doubt suspicion might be too strong a word—doubt as to whether it will stand the ordeal of close investigation — is the establishment of

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the consultative provincial bodies. He mentioned, as if it were something to he satisfied with and so it is—that he did not propose to pay salaries to persons taking part in that portion of the scheme. But after all, you are left with the old dilemma. If a person is paid he has some responsibility; if he is not paid he has none. So that, however reluctant you may be to pay people, you do not get the full sense of responsibility or control unless you do pay them. I rather suspect the value of the amateur interference of so-called experts in educational matters, even when they come from Universities. I do not know t position the Universities are to occupy. We are co-ordinating, correlating, and doing everything else that is desirable nowadays in education. The Universities have always been democratic bodies, closely mixed up with the life of the people, and I do not know exactly what the relation will be to the secondary and primary schools. I hope this is not a profane suggestion to make. If there is advantage in the presence of representatives of the Universities, with consultative powers, if no more, on authorities dealing with the general education of the county, must it not also be desirable that plain men, with large experience of School Boards and other humble departments of the educational system, should be admitted to some voice in the governing bodies of the Universities themselves? I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and the Government on having introduced this Bill. As I have said, I think that in the main it carries out the ideas of the Scotch people on the subject. As a representative of a burgh, I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman has dealt with the burghs with the respect that he ought to have shown to them, but that is a matter of detail to be dealt with when we come to the clauses of the Bill. In the meantime I think there will be a general feeling that the old system of local education, governed by the locality, under the control of the inhabitants and the parents of the children, to which they have been accustomed for so many years, will not be materially injured, while other advantages which are at present absent will have been secured.
MR. EUGENE WASONasked on what date the Bill would come into force.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the appointed day was 15th May, 1905.
MR. WEIRwhile thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the Bill, which he was glad to find extended the School Board franchise to all persons having the right to vote for county councillors, suggested that provision should be made by which School Board managers in sparsely populated districts might be paid travelling expenses for attending School Board meetings and specially meetings of the provincial councils. He did not think a provincial council would be suitable to the Highland counties. He would wait to see the Bill before making any further remarks.
SIR ROBERT REIDasked whether the powers delegated to the local managers were to be exercised subject to control by the School Board, or at the discretion of the managers.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid that that would depend on the terms of delegation.
MR. BRYCEcongratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the boldness with which he had dealt with the chaos and confusion caused in the Scotch education system by the different grants. If the Bill dealt with no other matter than that they would have cause to be grateful for it. He desired to take the opportunity of paying a tribute not only to the right hon. Gentleman himself, but also to the late Secretary for Scotland for his endeavours to improve the whole system of Scotch education. Scotland had never had a better Secretary than Lord Balfour of Burleigh, and there was no subject to which he devoted himself with greater assiduity than the promotion of Scotch education, and in the Bill many points which would have the general assent of the Scotch people could be recognised as having been pressed by Lord Balfour of Burleigh in speeches and circulars. There was doubtless an advantage in giving Scotch educational opinion an opportunity of expressing itself, but it

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was doubtful whether that opportunity would be as well given by four provincial councils as by one central council for the whole of Scotland. In some parts of the country, partly in the North, it would be very difficult to get people of large educational experience, such as it was desirable to have in relation with the knowledge of the practical difficulties of each district. General educational experience, together with knowledge of the special needs of the districts, was necessary, and he was not sure that that would be obtained with the four councils so well as by one. The difficulty of bringing people from a distance might be surmounted by giving the council power to meet in different places. While sympathising with the view of the right hon. Gentleman that it was better to appropriate the four existing sources of revenue than to have recourse to the rates, he suggested that there night be cases in which a burgh of an advanced and enlightened county might with advantage have the power of rating itself in addition to receiving money from this separate Scotch fund. There were many minor points to which attention would have to be paid when the House had the Bill in print, meanwhile he expressed his pleasure that the fundamental principles of local representation and full local control—which had given such vitality to Scotch education in the past—were to be preserved.
MR. MACONOCHIEasked the Question whether nothing could be done to assist farm servants in the matter of extra cost to them for school books for their children, owing to the fact that nearly every parish had different books. Also whether there was provision to enable the children of agricultural labourers to leave school before fourteen years of age when they had passed fairly high in their examinations.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the provisions of the Bill as explained by the Secretary for Scotland were a considerable improvement upon those of the Education Acts hitherto produced by the present Government, and he wondered whether the right hon. Gentlemen could see his way
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to extend the Bill to Wales. One provision of the Bill was a striking comment upon a certain action taken by the Government in this country. He understood that under this Bill the treatment of voluntary schools in Scotland was to be different from that of the voluntary schools in England and Wales, as an option to the giving of rate aid was to be left to the local authorities. When the people of England and Wales claimed to exercise a similar right they were told they would have to go to gaol. Why should Scotchmen be allowed perfect freedom m this matter, while people south of the Tweed were threatened with imprisonment for claiming the same right. A great deal was heard about equal rights for all white men in Africa, but he thought it was about time there were equal rights for all white men in this country. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would make representations to the Government, so that they might realise that people south of the Tweed were as fond of freedom and fair play as those who dwelt north of it.
MR. HALDANEsaid it was clear from the last speech that this Bill avoided the religious controversy which had been such a great obstacle to educational progress in England. In Scotland they had always been to a large extent free from that trouble, because, although they had denominationalism, with them it was well understood, and kept within limits by popular sense and popular control. He believed then; were certain powers in the Education Department of giving grants in aid of voluntary schools. Would those powers still continue?
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he was not aware of the powers to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.
MR. HALDANEsaid he was thinking of one or two particular cases, but it was evident from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that the matter did not bulk largely in his scheme, and therefore it was of no importance. A further question was whether the management the religious question would rest with the popularly-elected authorities constituted by this Bill.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Absolutely.
MR. HALDANEthought the right hon. Gentleman was right in preserving a certain amount of local management, but it would require careful watching, as in some parts of Scotland there had been a disposition to make the holidays coincide with agricultural rather than educational requirements. The Government were to be congratulated on having solved in a satisfactory fashion the difficulty about the teachers. There was to be a large area, with a large number of responsible people upon the authority which would have the power of appointment and dismissal, and he did not think teachers would ask for more. The part of the scheme which he thought the least satisfactory was the position of the Scotch Education Department. It was, doubtless, a great convenience to Ministers and Members of Parliament to have the Education Department in London, but the difficulty of access was keenly felt by local managers and people interested in education generally in Scotland. The Department was too far away, and matters were conducted far too much by letter and circular and far too little by consultation. He hoped it would be part of the administrative scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, outside this Bill, to ensure that the representatives of the Department in Scotland were more open to consultation. The proposal with regard to four provincial councils would cut both ways. It was a good scheme in one direction and it would act as a bulwark against bringing the education authority to one particular centre in Scotland. He agreed with his right hon. friend that in the long run it would entail a change in the constitution of the governing bodies at the Scotch Universities. Those bodies at present were not satisfactory; they were out of touch with the popular element, with the result that there was a want of that vitality which could be seen in the governing bodies of the new Universities in England, such as at Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham. He hoped the Bill would be the first step towards bringing not only the University influence into the general system of education, but also the general
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educational influence into the University system. With regard to technical education, that branch of the subject could not be developed on an adequate scale so long as it was kept to the mere provision of technology. Technical instruction must be based on a foundation of general knowledge, and kept up in relation to higher learning, and he had always thought they suffered from the fact that the Universities did not take a sufficient part in primary education. These provincial councils might be the means of introducing the Universities into a new sphere of activity for which they ought to be well fitted. The right hon. Gentleman was to be congratulated on having hit off the general sense of the people of Scotland in this matter. In Scotland, undoubtedly, with the experience the people had had of administration of education and their long habituation to directly-elected authorities, the right hon. Gentleman had taken a wise course and the only one consonant with Scottish opinion. With regard to details of the scheme, Members would have to wait for the Bill before pronouncing a final opinion, but the right hon. Gentleman was to be congratulated on the general foundation which appeared to be embodied in the measure.
MR. THOMAS SHAWdesired to associate himself with the remarks of his right hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition, both as to the measure itself and as to its introduction. The right hon. Gentleman had rendered many signal services to the State, but he had never rendered a greater than in the construction and introduction of this Bill. While reserving to himself the right of criticising the details of the measure, there were one or two points to which he wished now to refer. He had frequently argued for the triangulation of Scotland for the purpose of managing the educational wants of the country, and he freely admitted that this scheme seemed substantially to have accomplished that object. He hoped that nothing he would say would be construed as anything but a tribute to the School Board system of Scotland from which that country had derived sued signal benefit for thirty-two years. The principle of that Act had been of

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great importance and benefit to education in Scotland. The principle was, in the first place, that there should be perfect control over the contribution of the rates of the locality, and secondly, that with that control there should be absolute liberty of administration even on the difficult topic of religion. On these two lines there had been produced in Scotland a state of educational peace which was in marked contrast, in recent years, to what had been seen south of the Tweed. While he felt a pang of regret at the abolition by the Act, at one stroke, of the School Boards of Scotland he found consolation when he discovered the constitution of a local committee. Might he point out to his right hon. friend the Secretary for Scotland that there would be, on the question of area, not inconsiderable difficulty in some parts of Scotland. There were no district councils in some counties. He had not the statistics before him at the present moment, but his impression was that the large county of Sutherland had no district council at all. The whole of that county would be administered by one board, and it stood to reason that no poor man would be called to sit upon it. He thought the county of Caithness was in a similar position. These were cases which would have to be considered in the spirit in which the Bill had been introduced, and he was quite sure that the Government would consider any workable suggestion as to these details. In regard to the School Boards he ventured to interpose one question. He understood that the School Boards for the areas would have the power of overlooking the question of the educational wants in their districts, including the supply from voluntary sources. He hoped that his interposition would not be misunderstood. He was glad to hear that before grants were made to these voluntary institutions, conditions laid down by the representative body must be complied with. This was an arrangement which appeared to solve a troublesome and knotty question in regard to the voluntary schools. So much difficulty had arisen in England on the questions of public control, the state of buildings, and the efficiency of the stag that he had heard with satisfaction that this money was to be administered by means of a representative body, making
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conditions which in their judgment would be adequate to secure effective public control. He also welcomed the financial provision made for bringing pupils to secondary and technical centres, and for bursaries to be given to promising pupils.
He was extremely sorry that he could not give a complete eulogy to this measure. He should be inclined to hold that the scheme for four provincial councils was unfortunate, and at present he would hope that it was not necessary for the scheme of the Bill. He rather differed from his hon. and learned friend the Member for Haddington, who talked about, the Universities and their connection with technical and secondary education. His speech appeared to him rather a plea for the reform of the Universities in these respects, but it was no argument for taking selected bodies from the Universities and planting them in the position even of consultation in regard to the primary or secondary education of Scotland. He would advise his friends on both sides of the House to look carefully to what were to be the functions of these bodies. If he gathered aright they were to form one-fourth of the governing bodies of the voluntary schools. What possible right had they in the matter of consultation or otherwise in a scheme of this kind? On the whole the four provincial councils seemed altogether to be surplusage. He hoped they were not necessary to the Bill, but he would rather take them than do anything to impede the progress of the measure. The spirit in which the Bill had been introduced augured for it a happy, and, he hoped, a swift progress. It behoved all in Scotland to give every possible assistance to the passing of the Bill.
SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he desired to congratulate the Scotch representatives on the policy of the Government in simplifying, and therefore giving greater force to, the use of the Consolidated Fund in the interests of education. Some persons in England had long thought that it, would be of great benefit to education if a larger share of what he would venture to call a national grant came from the Consolidated Fund rather than from the rates.

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That would simplify procedure, avoid many complications, and much strife. He and many others believed that the salaries of teachers should be charged on the national funds, thereby placing that distinguished body of men in a more satisfactory position than they now occupied. He desired to thank his right hon. friend the Member for Haddington for what he said in favour of general as well as technical education. One of the great mistakes made in this country during the last ten or fifteen years had been that too exclusive attention had been given to purely technical education. That was perhaps, a necessity of the time, but he sincerely hoped that now the literary side of secondary education would find its due and becoming place in the education of the country.
MR. J. A. CAMPBELLcongratulated the Secretary for Scotland upon the manner in which the Bill had been received. This was not the time for going into details, hut there was one provision in the Bill on which he thought his right hon. friend deserved especially to be congratulated. A frequent complaint against the present condition of things referred to the smallness of the School Board area in many country districts.
It was felt that the smaller areas restricted the scope of the School Boards, and these were apt to take narrow views of what was necessary in the interest of education. His right hon. friend had shown how the larger areas would be greatly in favour of the teachers, and there was no doubt that the change would open up a prospect of advancement to the teachers of the country schools. That would have the effect, we might hope, of attracting a fuller supply of male candidates for scholastic situations. At present there was much complaint of a deficiency in the supply of properly qualified male teachers. On the other hand, with larger areas, there was a danger of the people of a parish losing some degree of their interest in the education of their children. Under the present system it was found that the connection of the people with the school of the parish had a great effect in stimulating their interest in education, and if, in the future, the parish
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was simply to be part of a large School Board area without much individuality of its own as regards school administration, there might be a falling away of that interest. His right hon. and learned friend had avoided that danger by his provision of managing committees, through which the interest of each parish in its own schools would be maintained, while the larger area would give greater scope to education, and afford a better field for the teachers. He had to acknowledge the position which the right hon. Gentleman gave to the universities of Scotland in granting them a voice in the proposed consultative committees. Some allusion had been made to the governing bodies of the universities, as if they might not be sympathetic in the matter, but he would remind the House that not long ago the constitution of these governing bodies had been largely altered, and that now no fear of tint kind could be entertained. He congratulated his right hon. and learned friend on the Bill he had explained to the House and on the favourable reception which it had met with on all sides.
MR. CATHCART WASONsaid he was very glad to understand from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland that, under the Bill, it would be possible to do away with some of the disabilities which some teachers in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland suffered through being unable to come under the provisions of the Superannuation Act. He was pleased to join in the general satisfaction with which the Bill had been received in all parts of the House; more especially' in connection with the manner in which the grievances under which the old teachers had suffered for a long time had been treated. Another point with which he was delighted was the provision for the conveyance of children to school from remote districts, instead of their having to walk to school on cold, wet days. Many children were blamed for stupidity in school when they were actually suffering from toothache and earache. If more attention were paid to the physical condition of the poor children and if their health were better looked after, there would not be the same outcry as at present for technical education. The

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Scottish children had plenty of brains if they had only health; and if facilities were provided against their sitting in school with wet feet and wet clothes. He was disappointed at not having heard from the right hon. Gentleman more about cooking lessons—a subject which was almost lost sight of. Girls, as well as boys, went out into the world utterly devoid of knowledge of that science. With reference to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Haddington, he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would not curtail the powers of the School Boards in regard to holidays in any district they thought fit. All of them were anxious that education should be carried on as far as possible, but there were many circumstances in which it was desirable and absolutely necessary that parents and guardians of the children should have their help in harvest and at other times.
DR. MACNAMARAsaid that when he compared the admirable speech which had been made that afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland with those which had been made from the Treasury and other Benches opposite in 1902–3, he was reduced to a condition of absolute bewilderment. He did not think he could go beyond Truthful James when that hero of Bret Harte's poem exclaimed:—
"Do I sleep; do I dream;
Do I wander in doubt;
Are things what they seem,
Or is visions about?"
It had been said from the Benches opposite that of the forms of local authority for education to be thrust upon a helpless community the School Board system was the most objectionable. Speaking on the English Education Act of 1902, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University said that the ad hoc system was an anachronism, that it was reactionary, that it was recognised that self-government was absolutely impossible unless there was always control of the finances, and that the only way that could be secured in this or any other country, was to place all control, financial and educational, in the hands of the municipal councils. The Goverment had made a complete volte face on this matter. Last
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year they said that the ad hoc authority was reactionary, retrograde, hopeless, and extravagant; but that was the system which that afternoon had been retained and extended in Scotland, although every reason for destroying the ad hoc authority in London and the great provincial towns of England might have been equally applied to the Scottish School Boards. He looked with envy and delight on the position of Scotland, and he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of Scotland upon his action. Why was this? First of all he suggested that they had got a Scottish Prime Minister and a Scottish Leader of the Opposition; but the main reason was that the Government knew that the Scottish people were keen on education, and that if any endeavour had been made to destroy the School Boards in Scotland the people of Scotland would have made sharp retribution. He did not believe the Government believed in School Boards. The experience of the House that afternoon compared with the experience in the debates in 1902–3 was a very fine lesson to the English people. If the English people had cared for their School Boards the Government would not have destroyed them; but because the Scottish people were keen on education and for the retention of their School Boards the Government were afraid to destroy them. It was because of their careless indifference and unconcern in England that the Government had destroyed the great School Boards in England and in London with impunity. This would be an admirable scheme for England and Wales, and would get them out of all their difficulties. He felicitated the Scottish Secretary upon the task he had to perform, which must have been in consonance with his own views; and he also felicitated the Scottish nation whose rapt and stern interest on behalf of education had stood them in such good stead, and which had made it impossible for even the present Government to destroy the School Boards of Scotland. He hoped the Scottish people would remain in the van of education in the United Kingdom as they now were, and that they would continue to put into practice the dictum of their great reformer that every scholar was an addition to the wealth of the community.
MR. MAXWELLsaid that he had no doubt that the the Secretary for Scotland would be quite willing to have the advice of educational experts like the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken. He hoped, however, the progress of the Bill would not be hindered by the introduction of English difficulties. There was one point to which the Secretary for Scotland did not refer, namely, the question of endowments. As he understood the Bill, it proposed that local authorities should be set up who would have the management of education in their areas. The right hon. Gentleman was no doubt aware that many of the large endowed schools in Scotland had to make use of their powers to ask the Court of Session to have changes made in their schemes. Unfortunately the smaller endowments had not taken advantage of that power, and many of the schemes were not really doing as much for education as they might. He would not go so far as to suggest that these endowments should be made over to the local education authority; still it was very desirable that the local education authority should have some powers in regard to them. He hoped the Secretary for Scotland would not lose sight of the point.
CAPTAIN ELLICE (St. Andrews Burghs)said he desired to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on the Bill which he had introduced, and at the same time condole with hon. Members representing English constituencies. Parents in England had, however, a remedy. They could send their children across the border to be educated. He especially congratulated the Secretary for Scotland because the Bill carried out all the pledges he himself had given to his constituents with one exception. That was the superannuation of lady teachers, but perhaps that would be provided for at a later stage. He could not, however, congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on the slur on St. Andrew's University contained in the Bill. He thought it ought to be a meeting place of one of the consultative councils instead of Aberdeen.
MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid that the only complaint
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he had heard of the Bill came from an English Member who wondered why the provisions did not apply to England. He would suggest that an Englishman should come forward and should deal with the priest and the militant opposition, and bring in another Bill. The proposals of the Secretary for Scotland had been received with such an outburst of enthusiasm that he could only say with Charles II., "Why did not come down sooner and earn this applause before?" With much of the Bill he most cordially agreed, and he only wished they had not had so long to wait for it. They were, he believed, ten years in arrear with it and he felt that the Scottish Administration of the Government had incurred very serious responsibilities from having left the measure over so long. They would now endeavour to make the best of the Bill, which they would consider educationally and not politically or in any sectarian spirit. In Scotland they claimed to have common sense in the matter of education and this Bill would give them absolution in history for many sins committed in the past. With regard to the Bill itself he wished to express entire approval of the district area which, as was apparent, was the most serviceable area for the conduct of local affairs. With that area and the one authority for all classes of education he fully agreed. Nor did he anticipate any difficulty in the matter of local control, and if it were true that some of those areas were large, might it not be considered whether payment should not be made to members of School Boards who were put to considerable expense to attend the meetings at some distance from their homes. It would, in his opinion, lead to the efficiency of the authorities if some such allowance were to be made. As for the local managers he was not quite so sure of the manner of their selection, but that did not give an opportunity for much criticism. The proposition for the transport of children was most admirable, and he presumed it would be required more for the primary than the secondary and technical schools. Then in the matter of food, he would not press for food to be provided, but he would ask whether some

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provision could not be made in the shape of the necessary articles employed in the preparation of the food. Then he would like to see a better standardisation of pupil teachers, and if the universities could be brought into closer contact with the system of training teachers it would benefit Scottish education as a whole. He did not believe in the councils absolutely, but he did believe in having effective control over the office of the Education Department. A great deal of confidence in the administration of that department was lost last year by the minute governing relief from the rates, and by the circular which restricted Scottish education in primary schools before any co-ordination was introduced into the system of secondary education. Those were two capital errors. He would commend to the right hon. Gentleman opposite a little handbook which he had been permitted to see in the India Office and which defined the relations of the Secretary of State for India with his Council. It was he believed, on such lines as were contained in that handbook that they ought to find a solution of the difficulty of bringing the department under the influence of Scottish opinion. It was not merely a question of the efficiency of the department, but of reviving the interest in educational affairs that had not been noticeable of late years in Scotland. He sincerely trusted that the Bill with some Amendments would have a rapid passage through Parliament.
MR. JOHN DEWARhoped the Secretary for Scotland had kept in view in this Bill the necessities of the poorer districts of Scotland, where the rates were abnormally high. In one parish of his constituency the rates in one year came to no less than four shillings in the pound. The Secretary for Scotland had, in the Bill, given power to the School Boards to bring the children to the school. That was very much needed. One school he visited he found contained only six pupils, and four of them belonged to the teacher himself. That was a wasteful method of employing the finances of the School Board. The
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Bill also reduced the School Board franchise to the same level as the county council franchise. That was an admirable change and one much needed. Many persons in his constituency had a right to vote for Members of Parliament and of the county council, but no right to vote at the election of the School Board. That resulted in a ridiculous position of affairs in many districts. In one school district, with 120 scholars, there were only five parents of these children who had a right to vote for the School Board. In another school, where there were only sixty or eighty scholars, the only parent who had a right to vote for the election of the School Board was the schoolmaster himself. He was glad to say this Bill removed that difficulty. It was a pressing question at the last general election. He would also press, as the hon. Member for Leith had done, that something should be done to give School Boards power to contribute something towards the maintenance of scholars coming long distances. In the Highlands scholars often came from very long distances and in all sorts of t weather, and they arrived wet, tired, and hungry, having consumed all the provisions they had. Unless something were done they would have to carry on the work of the day on an empty stomach, and that everybody knew, was not a condition in which a child could take advantage of the education offered. It seemed to him the power of the School Board should be widened in this respect, and that they should contribute something towards this very desirable object. He also thought that, in the West of Scotland particularly, the powers of the Board should be extended to embrace the teaching of trades to boys attending the schools. As he had pointed out, these boys never saw any trades being carried on—never saw any builders, joiners, or blacksmiths at work. He knew the Secretary for Scotland had promised a Bill in which these powers should be given to the Congested Districts Board, but he suggested that money should be taken in this Bill for that purpose instead of money given to the Congested Districts Board. He would like to congratulate the Secretary for Scotland on the Bill which seemed an excellent one.
DR. FARQUHARSONcongratulated the Secretary for Scotland on this most excellent Bill. They were very happy to know that the School Boards were to be retained in Scotland, instead of being done away with, as they had in the case of the last Education Act for England. It was very important, however, that the areas covered by the smaller School Boards should not be too large, so that local interest might not be extinguished. He was sure that much good would be done if members of the School Boards were encouraged to drop into schools when inspection was being carried on. It was a very important point that in these large areas teachers in the smaller districts should have some reasonable chance of rising in their profession, instead of being confined continuously to one district. Their professional horizon should be enlarged by the prospect of getting promotion. It was a great grievance among teachers in remote districts that they were confined to rudimentary teaching, and were prevented from exercising their knowledge in the higher work of teaching. The subject of the dismissal of teachers was one which he was glad to find was dealt with as it should be. Cases had not been general, but there had been occasionally instances of arbitrary dismissal for some purely local reason or personal squabble. He was of opinion that teachers should, in the case of capricious dismissal, be entitled to place their grievance before a higher tribunal. As to physical training, he was very glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman had taken this subject to heart and he hoped he would take pains to see that proper physical training in schools was carried out. This was a most important matter and he hoped it would be the subject of a full-dress debate in that House. They heard a great deal about the physical deterioration of the children and he had no doubt that there was considerable truth in the assertion. The root and branch of the whole business was that the children were not properly fed. It was inevitable that want of proper nourishment should lead to stunted growth. In his opinion something should be done to see that children were fed regularly during school hours, and if
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a practical suggestion with this object were made, a great deal of good would undoubtedly result. Much was already accomplished in this direction by private enterprise, but this was not enough. It was notorious that children well fed were in a much better condition to take in knowledge than those who were underfed. If children were compelled to go to school in all conditions of weather, it was not going too far to say that some provision should be made by the State or by the public authority to see that they were properly fed. He was very glad that the Secretary for Scotland had directed his mind to the physical side of the subject, and he was quite sure that if he did take action in the matter he would earn the gratitude of children and parents alike.
MR. BLACKdesired to join with those who had already spoken in congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the endeavour he had made to 3olve the problem now before him. He thought, however, that it would be a great misfortune if this Bill were to be read a first time without something more being said with regard to the old parochial schools and School Board system. It would be a great matter for regret if they were allowed to be wiped out "unwept, unhonoured, and unsung." The first essential of Scotch education was that it should be Scotch, and the old parochial system loomed large in the eyes of the nation. This Bill proposed to do away in large measure with that system, because, although it retained the idea of local managers in the way of local management committees, partly appointed by the parish council, these committees were very restricted in their functions, for they had no rating function, nor any function in relation to the appointment or dismissal of teachers. He was very much afraid that one of the effects of the proposed system would be to throw the direction of education in some measure into the hands of the people who had taken part in the county councils in the past instead of into the hands of local people. It would be a great misfortune if that were allowed to take place, and if the personal touch of the people, especially of the lower

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middle class, with the schools was diminished or damaged. He could not say more without seeing the Bill itself, and he felt that hon. Members would be wise to insist upon seeing the actual provisions of the measure before committing themselves further in regard to it.
MR. JOHN WILSONsaid the Secretary for Scotland had gauged in a remarkable manner the feeling of the people of Scotland with regard to the educational question, especially of the people in the great towns. Did the Secretary for Scotland intend to put down cumulative voting?
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONurged that the Bill should not be sent to the newspapers before it was in the hands of Members of the House. He also asked that it should be distributed to Members in time for them to place it before their constituents during the holidays.
MR. AINSWORTHdrew attention to the desirability of teaching Gaelic in the Highland schools. It was almost necessary, he contended, that the teachers employed in the schools should have a knowledge of Gaelic in order to teach children English. In reply to the argument so often used that Gaelic was no use to children in after life he pointed oat that if a child had a knowledge of Gaelic as well as English in his early life he would acquire much more easily tiny modern language.
THE MASTER OF ELIBANKdrew attention to the practice of sending the poor children of Glasgow and Edinburgh to institutions in Midlothian, as a consequence of which the cost of the education of these children fell upon the local authorities in Midlothian. As long ago as 1898 the attention of the Government had been directed to this matter, and he mentioned it now because he thought it would be a convenient time to deal with it.
Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid he would try and give an answer as simply as he could to the various Questions put to him. The hon. Member for Mid-
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lothian asked him a Question. He knew quite well to what he referred—the great difficulty in connection with the homes of various sorts which had been established. There was one question well known to hon. Members of the House in connection with the Quarriers' Homes. He could not say there was any provision in the Bill dealing with them. It was a subject full of difficulty. He could assure the hon. Member if he would try his hand at a clause to bring about a remedy he would find what serious difficulties there were in the way. He was not prepared to go the whole length of absolving a parish from duties with regard to the education of those who happened to be within its borders. He should be very glad if any hon. Member could give him any assistance on this subject. With regard to the cumulative vote, it would be inconsistent with the plan of having a member for each electoral district. The Bill did not, obviously, deal with the question of the teaching of Gaelic, and this was a matter to be regulated by the local authorities. It was altogether outside the Bill to take up any question of curriculum. The poorer districts would necessarily get a considerable amount of absorption in the larger areas. There were provisions under the Bill which would make it possible for assistance to be given to any education authority, or set of education authorities, which might choose to combine to start anything in the nature of a training college. He disagreed with the hon. Member for St. Andrews Burghs, who said it was a slur on the St. Andrews University that it was not to be one of the meeting places of the councils. He (Mr. A. Graham Murray) would be the last to cast a slur on St. Andrews University, but St. Andrews would obviously not be a convenient centre for the proposed meeting place.
CAPTAIN ELLICEsaid he thought the desire was to get the Universities interested in education, and if that was what was desired he should have thought the best place to meet would be St. Andrews.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid St. Andrews would have as much representation as any other University. The

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Bill did not touch endowments at all. As to the price of books, that would necessarily be alleviated by the larger area. The question of the expense of keeping a child at school after it had passed a certain standard did not fall within the scope of the Bill at all. It would be the duty of the education authority one year after the passing of the Bill to furnish the Department with a report in regard to the condition of education in their district. The Department would then consider whether, taking everything in view, it was necessary to start other institutions or not. He had already explained, in answer to a Question, the nature of the rate and what the School Board might give to institutions not under its own control. That did not mean, of course, grants out of the Education Fund going through the School Board at all. They would be paid out of the local education fund just as at present.
MR. THOMAS SHAWasked whether the subvention would be affected by the Bill.
MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the old three shillings subvention was not touched, and it would obviously be an extraordinary injustice to take it away. He thought he had answered every point raised by hon. Members, but there was one matter to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen had alluded, and to which he desired to refer. In thanking the House very cordially for the exceedingly favourable reception it had given to the Bill—and he was quite certain that fair play and even more than fair play would be shown in the subsequent proceedings—he wished to say that the credit to a large extent was not his, but belonged to his noble friend, who, he was sorry to say, was not still with them. They could not, however, as was the manner of angels, occupy the same needle point at the same time. The general scheme of the Bill was determined so long ago as last summer by his noble friend, assisted by himself. Of course it was not framed at that time. Since then, in the actual construction of the Bill, whilst carrying out general principles, they had considered very
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carefully and, on many occasions, the whole of the details. They had taken those that seemed to be best, and that best had overcome the difficulties that arose. But on those matters they were not wedded to them, and in the future passage of the measure, if they chose to alter the matter of local managers, the proportion, and so on, if they chose to cut out the scheme even of provincial councils, he should not consider it in any way vital to the Bill. The one vital principle was that one central authority was to be the authority for primary and secondary education. He hoped the House would find, on consideration of the details, that although there was something to criticise in this plan there would be more to criticise if another plan were to be taken. Upon those matters ho only asked for the assistance of the House, and he was quite sure the way in which the Bill had just been received was a favourable augury for its further progress. With regard to the Question of the hon. Member for Dundee as to when the Bill would be placed before hon. Members he could only remark that if the hon. Gentleman represented the feeling of the House he bad nothing more to say. It was quite impossible for this Bill—which could not be sent to press before tomorrow, and had to be printed and stitched—to be circulated before the end of the week. Hon. Members would doubtless before that time have gone to Scotland. Their copies would be sent to them through the post and eventually they would receive them after the Bill had appeared in the newspapers, to which it would be sent as soon as it was delivered to the Vote Office. He quite understood the feeling that animated hon. Members in desiring to receive the Bill personally instead of seeing it in the papers, but he really thought that if hon. Members wished to consult their convenience they would in this case allow the Bill to be sent to the newspapers without delay. He, however, was not going do so and then to be told that he had not consulted the House of Commons upon the point.
MR. CALDWELLexpressed the opinion that a precedent would be created if the Bill

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were to be sent to the papers before it was placed in the hands of private Members. He suggested there should be a consultation on the point between the Secretary for Scotland and the Leader of the Opposition.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
Bill to amend the Laws relating to Education in Scotland and for other purposes connected therewith, ordered to be brought in by Mr. A. Graham Murray and the Lord Advocate.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
"To amend the Laws relating to Education in Scotland and for other purposes connected therewith," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be road a second time upon Monday, 18th April, and to be printed. [Bill 144.]

CONSOLIDATION FUND (No. 1) BILL.
[THIRD READING.]
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
SIR JOHN GORSTsaid he wished to direct attention to the physical condition of the children in the elementary schools. This matter had been frequently discussed in the House, and he wished to know how long it was to remain a subject of discussion and inquiry, and when the Board of Education would see its way to take some practical steps to ameliorate the condition of the children. The London School Board had had no less than three committees on the subject, and they had collected a great amount of information. The first committee was held as long ago as 1889, the second in 1895, and the third made its report in 1899. All the reports recognised the unfortunate condition of a large number of the children. The first committee reported that 12 per cent, of the total number of children attending the schools of the London School Board were suffering from insufficient nutrition. Although a voluntary association, called the London School Dinner Association, had done an enormous amount of good
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work in the Metropolis to thousands since that time, the report of the last committee recognised that, in spite of all the efforts that had been made by that association, there were still a considerable number of children in the schools so hungry that they were unable to do the work of the schools. The evidence brought before the School Board committee in regard to St. Bartholomew's School as to children suffering from want of food was only an example of what was happening in hundreds of other schools in London and other great cities in England and Scotland. He did not think there was such evidence forthcoming in the case of country schools, not because the children did not hunger, but because inquiry had not taken place in regard to them. When he was Vice-President of the Council he constantly brought this matter before the House, but he was sorry to say that he never was able to bring the House to a real appreciation of the gravity of the case. A Royal Commission in Scotland which inquired into physical training commented not only on that question but also on the physical condition of the children in the schools. That matter was discussed twice last session, once on the Scotch Estimates and once on the Education Vote. His hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education promised at that time that an inquiry should be made in regard to the children of the great towns of England analagous to that made regarding the children of Edinburgh and Aberdeen.
A Commission was appointed nearly a year ago at the instigation of the military authorities to inquire into the alleged deterioration of recruits. A Committee was appointed to draw up the ordinary reference, and to consider how the Commission was to be constituted. He was very glad to say that that Committee was not now to report upon the question of the institution of a Royal Commission, but to consider what were the causes of the deterioration of the health of the children in the schools, and what were the remedies. Now, these causes were perfectly patent, and had been known to the House of Commons for ten or twelve years; they were want of fresh air, want of proper food, want of proper treatment, and want of medical inspection. As to the remedies, of

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course, opinions might considerably differ. There was not anything like unanimity, but everybody was agreed that some remedy should be applied. It was the duty of Parliament either to prescribe remedies, or to give power to the local authorities which would enable them to prescribe remedies. He did not blame the Board of Education, or his hon. friend the Parliamentary Secretary. He thought they had always been willing to take this matter into consideration, and provide the necessary remedies. What was wanted was a little more pressure from public opinion, and the House of Commons, which would strengthen the hands of the Board of Education and enable them to grapple with this urgent and extremely important question. The mischief done by taking hungry children into schools, and attempting to make them do intellectual or physical work was quite incalculable. It taxed their brain and muscles, and did an injury to the children which no amount of good feeding or physic in after life could eradicate. He hoped his hon. friend would say that the Government and the Board of Education were entirely alive to the gravity of this matter, and that he would be able to give some account to the House as to when they might expect the Report of the Committee, and when practical effect would be given to that Report.
MR. CROOKSsaid he could not let that opportunity pass without trying to persuade the House to encourage the Education Department to follow the suggestions made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University. He feared that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education had but little notion, from reading the reports from various schoolmasters, of what took place in the schools. Only a few days ago a message came to him asking him to use his influence in an endeavour to get a child of under fourteen years of age released from school attendance. He asked why, and was told that she was wanted to nurse her father who was a chronic invalid, while the mother went out to work to get the necessaries of life for the family. That child when compelled to go to school had, through the kindness of the teacher—
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to his everlasting credit—been allowed to sleep instead of trying to learn lessons. He knew that when it was suggested that these poor children should be fed, it was said that that would be to relieve parent of their responsibilty. He knew that there was a percentage of bad fathers and mothers; but then, by refusing to feed the children, we were punishing the children, and not the bad fathers and mothers. It was a remarkable thing that, in consequence of the action of the House and Government, certain diseases of children, such as ophthalmia and ringworm, had been stamped out of the Poor Law schools, but there was a perpetual recruiting ground for children with such ailments in the outside schools, where there were so many children without fresh air and good food. Why should that be? Simply because of the heroic efforts of mothers and fathers to remain out of the workhouse until they could stand it no longer. The only thing which cured these children was not so much medical attendance as fresh air and good feeding. It should be remembered it was from these children that recruits were drawn for the Army and Navy, and yet they were denied fresh air, good food, and sound sleep in the very years of their life when they most wanted them. If the guardians in one district tried to remedy the evil by means of outdoor relief, those in the next district might be against outdoor relief, in order to compel the people to go into the workhouse, and, to the everlasting credit of the British workman and his wife, they stayed out of the workhouse as long as they could. But then the children suffered. These poor people lived in a one-roomed house in a slum, not because they liked it, but because they could not afford anything else; and they starved in the slum until they could do so no longer. A Thackeray or a Dickens was needed to do justice to the heroism of some of the women who were looked down upon for their supposed neglect of the personal cleanliness of their children, when their energies were absorbed in the struggle to obtain food for the husband, who was out of work, and the little ones, and to pay the rent. Three women came to him the other day, not in their own interest, but asking him if

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he could not give the woman at the corner some few half-pence. That poor woman was trying to earn a living by casual work, and her neighbours had shared their loaves with her, but they could not afford to do more, and she was crying because she had nothing to give the children when they came out of school at twelve o'clock. What a Christian nation we were! Sometimes a woman who had got a day's work to scrub out a room, did not return until midnight, with perhaps eighteen pence, and the remnants of some employer's dinner, and when she got into her slum room, she would be greeted by the cry of the little children waking up from their sleep—"Is that mother? Have you got anything to eat?" She would feed them and they would fall asleep again on the floor; and it was in these circumstances that the mother was often abused for not cleansing her children properly. Thousands of such cases were known, and the House could not shirk its responsibility for those children. They must realise their responsibility, for none of these things ought to happen in a country governed like ours. They had no right to shut their eyes and say it was no business of theirs. He contended that it was their business. The money now spent on their education was wasted, as it would not be in the feeding of the children. The nation had to pay ten times over when the children and the parents broke down through living in a vitiated atmosphere and through bad feeding. The payment was only made from the rates instead of the taxes. It was the work of the nation; and it was fearfully hard that because the poor were segregated, the poor should be obliged to keep the poor, and that the rates should run up to 10s. in the £. It was surely time that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Education should look into these matters. It might be possible for Parliament to make mistakes in some things, and for the county councils to make some mistakes in spending the rates, these could be remedied; but when mistakes were made in regard to children, and the bringing up of children, they were mistakes which could not be easily remedied. Every day that
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passed thousands and thousands of children were badly fed, and insufficiently clothed, and every succeeding day made matters worse. There were many people, to their credit be it said, who insisted that it would be a good thing if the feeding of these children was part of their school curriculum. If that were done, what a fine race we should grow up, and it, would be found that England did not exist for a few, but for all. He did not ask the hon. Baronet to get up and give his sympathy only; he wanted his help, and he wanted him to remember that every day that went by made it still more difficult to overtake the evil.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,)said that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had opened a subject on which he had always felt very strongly. Anyone who had to do with the elementary education of this country must realise that this was the most heartbreaking aspect of the educational question. If they took two schools in London, one in a fairly well-to-do district, and another in a poor district, and compared the results of the teaching in each, they would find the attendance good in both, the teaching good, and the children well behaved, but simply for want of proper nutrition and home care the children in the one school were immeasurably inferior in the results of that teaching to the children in the other. The right hon. Gentleman had asked what was going to be done as regarded the Committee of Inquiry appointed last summer. That Committee started on somewhat different lines from those which it had ultimately followed. It was based on the number of recruits rejected, and it was appointed with a view to ascertaining whether a Royal Commission should not be appointed to inquire into the general question of physical deterioration. The Board of Education felt it was very largely interested in the matter, and it was represented on the Committee. The reference implied the duty of ascertaining what steps should be taken to furnish the Government with a periodical set of facts as to the physical condition of the people and to try to indicate the causes of the

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deterioration and to point out the means by which it might be improved. The Committee began to sit in the winter, and they found that the British Association had appointed a committee, of which Professor Cunningham was chairman, to inquire into the same subject. The Committee put itself in communication with the committee of the British Association, which met them in a most cordial spirit. Professor Cunningham gave evidence, and the scheme already outlined by the British Association committee was sent to the College of Physicians and the College of Surgeons. The College of Surgeons had sent back word that they cordially approved of the proposed scheme, that there should be a regular survey of the population of the United Kingdom—of the agricultural and working population and of the children in the schools, and that means should be taken to ascertain their physical condition at the school age. The College of Physicians were still considering the matter. It was hoped that by proper management it might be possible to cover the whole of the United Kingdom every ten years, so that there might be a complete survey of the United Kingdom in the course of every ten years. This Committee had gone into the question of the life of the child from infancy up to the school age, during the school age, and during the period of adolescence. It had gone very carefully into the question of the nutrition of the children, and on these points members of the medical profession had given most valuable evidence. He believed also that his right hon. friend the Member for Cambridge University and the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Camberwell would also give evidence. He hoped the Committee would report at no distant date, and then they would be in possession of the facts as to the physical condition of the children, and they would have what the Committee conceived to be the causes of the evil and their suggested remedy. He did not think that the House would expect him to say more on the subject at present, but he wished the House to understand that the inquiries being made were of a most practical character, and that the Committee were going into the actual causes of the physical ailments and physical
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shortcomings of the children at school and before they went to school.
MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he desired to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant one or two Questions. Before doing so he desired to testify to the emotion with which the House heard the hon. Gentleman the Member for Woolwich, and how glad he was that the class for whom the hon. Gentleman spoke had at last found a spokesman in the House. The Chief Secretary would remember that he asked him a Question in the afternoon as to whether he had any information with reference to what occurred at a meeting held at the Ancient Concert Rooms in Dublin on Thursday evening last. The meeting turned out to be divided in opinion, and it was no part of his business to express any opinion as to the object for which the meeting was called. All he wished was to ask the Chief Secretary whether his attention had been called to the action of the police on the occasion. According to the newspaper reports, after the chairman had left the chair a body of police marched into the hall and proceeded to violently expel a number of ladies and gentlemen. He himself had received information that a great deal of unnecessary violence was used by the police; and he was given to understand that a number of ladies and several gentlemen of position in Dublin were roughly expelled from the hall. He asked to know by what authority the police acted in this way, and whether the police had any right to enter the hall at all and violently turn out a number of people when there was no turbulence beyond an ordinary difference of opinion which might occur at any meeting in England as well as in Ireland. Another curious circumstance was that the meeting was practically at an end when the police arrived, and their action was very calculated to lead to a serious disturbance. He himself was surprised that there was not retaliation on the occasion. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman by what authority the police entered the hall and violently expelled a number of ladies and gentlemen who were prepared to leave, the meeting being at an end, if not interfered with by the police. He

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observed in the newspapers that the Lord-Lieutenant had ordered an inquiry into the conduct of the police. What would be the nature of that inquiry and would it be open to the Press and the public? If it were not it would not be a satisfactory inquiry. This was a serious matter, affecting the right of public meeting in Ireland and an inquiry on oath should be held.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDBAM,)said that the hon. Member put a Question to him that afternoon, and a certain amount of information had since reached him on the subject by telegraph. The hon. Member, however, had raised points of law on which he should not now like to speak with confidence. He and others had read newspaper accounts of the proceedings which involved certain regrettable features, but they would see that the reports were conflicting. Information which had reached him went to show that the meeting became of a very disorderly character; and it was stated that the disorderly element was due to the action of representatives of the Gaelic League, but this was repudiated in the Press to-day. The proceedings were of a more disorderly character than the hon. Member seemed to suppose. It appeared that no motion could be put for a space of something like two and a half hours. He expressed his intention of replying to the specific Questions put by the hon. Member without giving any legal opinion. He understood that the chairman of the meeting, Sir James Murphy, who was chairman of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, had hired the hall and was responsible for the furniture. Seeing that the excitement was growing, and forming the opinion that the furniture would very likely suffer and that he would be responsible for the damage, and forming the opinion also that a breach of the peace was likely to arise, and as the uproar continued and was likely to continue, he sent for the police and the proceedings came to an abrupt conclusion either just before or at the moment the police entered. The police having been sent for were bound to go; and the information which he had received from Sir Antony Macdonnell, Mr.
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MacNeill, and the inspector of police, seemed to show that no unnecessary force was used. He should not like without receiving and considering a written report in all its bearings to go further and lay down the law.
MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid the right hon. Gentleman had informed them that at the time the police arrived the proceedings had come to an abrupt close, and this bore out the statement in the newspapers. At a certain period the chairman came to the conclusion that the proceedings could not go on, and he and his friends left the platform and the room, and the proceedings came to a sudden close just as the police came in. What did the police do? According to all reports the meeting having been practically closed and the disorder ended, the police proceeded to assault and drive out of the room a number of the people who still remained. There was no allegation that the disorder continued when the police came; the disorder came to an end when the chairman and his friends left the platform and the hall. The police came in and began to hustle, and, he was informed, assault the people and drive them out. The right hon. Gentleman had said nothing about an inquiry, though his hon. friend said he knew an inquiry had been ordered by the Lord-Lieutenant.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid that report was based on the fact that inquiries had been made.
MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that this being so they were bound to press the right hon. Gentleman to undertake that there would be an inquiry. It was perfectly monstrous that the police should have been allowed to go in when the disorder was over, and to begin to lay about them and assault people of respectability in Dublin. The right hon. Gentleman's story was inconsistent with facts. The disorder was in the gallery and not in the body of the hall; apparently the police did not go to the gallery at all. They went into the body of the hall and proceeded to assault a number of ladies and gentlemen, some of whom he (Mr. Redmond) was personally acquainted with, and whom he knew to

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be respectable. One gentleman was the Secretary of the Gaelic League, and another gentleman, Alderman Cole, was a member of the corporation; and there were some ladies whose names he could mention, and who certainly were not engaged in creating any disturbance or disorder. An occurrence like this, he thought, justified them in asking the right hon. Gentleman to hold an inquiry into the matter, an open inquiry, and an inquiry upon oath, so that those persons might be able to come forward and give their version of the transaction. He thought, indeed, they were bound to press the right hon. Gentleman to give them an undertaking that this matter would he inquired into.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid he should not give that undertaking until he had had a written report. He had telegraphed for information and it did not bear out the view the hon. and learned Member had put forward. Until he had had an opportunity of seeing whether there had been any exaggeration, as he believed there had been, lie could not give any undertaking, but, if he found that a case had been made out for an inquiry, he would consider the matter further.
MR. FLYNNsaid that they were not going into the details of the question at all, but, primâ facie, there was no justification for the conduct of the police. From all the reports that he had read the facts were quite plain, and from the reports it appeared that the only thing which might be characterised as violence was that two of three gentlemen had spoken for an undue length. If that were so, then this House had frequently been violent and disorderly. There was absolutely no justification for a large body of police entering a public hall and proceeding forcibly to eject and assault people in this way, and Irish representatives were justified in demanding a full inquiry into the matter.
MR. BRYCEdrew attention to the situation in the European provinces of Turkey. He said he was not going to bring any charges against the Government, nor to object to the general lines of their policy. The Civil officers appointed
916
under the Austro-Russian scheme seemed to have very little influence on what was happening, and the Turkish Government had exercised the art of obstruction with considerable success in connection with the reorganisation of the gendarmerie under General de Giorgis. It was originally intended that General de Giorgis and his staff should be free to give orders to the Turkish officers, and also that they should have as many officers as they thought necessary for the purposes of their work. Considering that it covered a very large territory, it was clear that a large number of officers might be required. The Turks, however, said that they would not have more than twenty-five—a number which was quite useless for the purposes of the work. The Turkish Government also appeared to be unwilling to consider the proposal that General de Giorgis should be able to give orders to the Turks, but if General do Giorgis was to do any good at all he ought to have the power of dismissal as well as the giving of orders. It was, therefore, not too much to say that the proper practical working of the scheme of reform was in danger. Those who had followed the newspapers knew what the spirit of the Turkish Government in the matter really was. They were very much indebted in particular to The Times for the admirable and vigorous reports which it had given upon the situation. He would especially call attention to the obstruction which the Government at Constantinople had placed in the way of the work of the hospitals for the relief and succour of the refugees and the wounded, which had been established by the munificence and the charity of people in this country.
He confessed to feeling regret for two things which had been done by His Majesty's Government, although it was impossible to impeach their policy as a whole or to refuse a frank acknowledgment of the spirit in which Lord Lansdowne had approached the question. It seemed a little unfortunate that he should have left the initiative so largely to Austria and Russia and not have vindicated for Great Britain that place in the front rank of the negotiations and in the carrying out of reforms which

917
historically belonged to her. He also regretted that Lord Lansdowne, no doubt with the best intentions, should have abandoned the alternative scheme of which he himself most approved—that of appointing a Christian Governor of these provinces—in favour of the scheme of supervision and control which it was now found so difficult to put into practical operation. His own original idea would have been more effective. He thought if Great Britain had claimed to have an important voice in this matter and had been seconded as she would have been, by France and Germany, much greater progress would have been made. As the House knew, there had been for the last three or four months very considerable danger that the insurrection would break out afresh. It had been suggested that the Turks thought they might escape from the unwelcome necessity of having to carry out the reforms if insurgent movements recommenced, and that they were protracting the present negotiations with the wish that such disturbances might again appear as a legitimate excuse for saying that they could not carry out the reforms while the country was in a state of insurrection. It would be very melancholy if that were true; but there were so many reasons for fearing the procrastinating policy adopted by the Turks that one could not readily say that the suggestion was untenable. This at least was certain. The sands were running out, and every week that passed brought nearer the time when the snow would have melted, when the roads would again be open, and when the insurgents, if they were going to make another rising, would rise. The time fixed as most dangerous was from the middle till the end of April, and therefore it became of the greatest importance that these pending questions should be settled, and that a substantial beginning of reforms should be made before April ended. He had no doubt that the Government felt that as strongly as he did, but he would like to ask them what they thought about the prospect generally.
MR. MOONagreed that this was no Party question. Both sides of the House wished to put a termination to the unhappy state of things
918
prevailing in Macedonia. In particular, they wished to show to other nations that they observed with regret the protracted delays which had marked the negotiations and attempts at reform. The British public were under the impression that the reform scheme had been in operation for some months, but, as a fact, the contrary was the case. After the presentation of the scheme to the Porte, two or three months were allowed to elapse before the persons who were to carry out the scheme were appointed. He referred to the latest information about the attitude of the Porte as most disappointing and misleading. Surely it was the idea of every one that the gendarmerie officers should have the right to order the gendarmerie about to any scenes of disturbance. If they were merely to cause the men to be drilled and then allow the Turkish officers to have the effective command, it was hard to see what was the use of having European officers at all. With regard to the criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman, he held that it was a reasonable course for this Government, after their experience of the European Concert, to try the experiment of getting the work done by what might be called a sub-committee of the Concert, but he thought, at the same time, that Russia and Austria-Hungary would feel that the House of Commons considered they had acted with unfortunate want of energy, to put it in the mildest terms, while Turkey, in obstructing us, was doing itself a very ill service indeed, and was its own worst enemy.
MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEcalled attention to the negotiations for a convention or treaty between this country and France for the settlement of a vast variety of questions which were now a subject of dispute between the two nations. Everybody would be glad to see those questions solved, but his complaint was that, whereas treaties and conventions made between two Continental nations were submitted to the representatives of those nations before they were ratified, in this country a treaty of the greatest possible importance might be entered into and the representatives of the people be in complete ignorance of its terms and conditions. He thought it an unfortunate thing that

919
so great a power should rest in the hands of the Executive for the time being. Such a power was unconstitutional, and although in past times it might have been injurious to the country, there might have been good reason for such a power. In olden times it was possible to keep these matters secret but it was not possible now. In the present ease, while the Government had kept the Press of this country in tolerably complete ignorance, the French Press had obtained a great deal of information which ought to be before this country previous to any treaty being made. In the République Francaise and the Echo de Paris there had appeared full and apparently tolerably accurate, accounts of the proposals. He went on to comment on the details of these proposals as revealed in the French journals, and spoke of the British concessions regarding Newfoundland, and particularly the concession of the right of the French fishermen to take bait, as very important and an adequate offset for any concession which the French might make to us.
And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Question [28th March], "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  Question again proposed.
  MR.CHARLES HOBHOUSE,continuing his speech, said that in years past the English Government had had a good deal of difficulty in persuading the responsible Ministry of Newfoundland, to pass from year to year the modus vivendi which was necessary to continue the agreement between this country and France. The sooner the necessity for that persuasion ceased the better it would be for all parties. There were other countries to be considered in reference to the negotiations with France. The first was Morocco. In that case it was impossible for His Majesty's Government
  920
  to make any territorial sacrifices as we had no territory to give up, but we had a distinguished position with regard to Morocco which might be sacrificed if the matter we e not very carefully considered. He understood the view of the French Government was that their interests along the borderland of Morocco, which touched Algiers, were so important as to give them the right to morally dominate the Sultan and the empire of Morocco. Such a domination would inevitably lead to a political occupation of that country. Morocco was a relic of barbarism in the midst of civilised empires, and what the French aimed at was first, commercial supremacy, and finally political occupation. But we had very great commercial interests in that country. Our trade with Morocco amounted to £1,500,000 a year, and that could not be lightly endangered. We had even more serious political and military interests at stake; and before any settlement was arrived at he would like to know whether the Defence Committee would be consulted with reference to any possible danger that might threaten Gibraltar, and thus endanger the greatest fortress we had on the Mediterranean, if the coast-line of Morocco were in the occupation of another Power. Events might arise if the coast-line of Morocco was in the hands of France, which might compel that country to disregard any obligations; she had entered into with us and thus practically close up the mouth of the Mediterranean to our fleets. Questions affecting Egypt and Siam were also involved in the proposed treaty; and what he was anxious to press on the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs was that the negotiations, or, at all events, the facts of the negotiations, between this country and France should be presented to the House of Commons before any definite understanding was come to.
  MR. CHARLES ALLENreferring to Macedonian affairs, said he had no desire to criticise the Government in any way, first of all because he knew how difficult and dangerous the problem was, and, secondly, because, under the circumstances, any criticism must be largely uninstructed. But he did wish to lay emphasis on the

  921
  fact that time was pressing. Already they had renewed stories of the activity of Bulgarian bands, and soon all the mountain paths of Macedonia would be open. He would, therefore, press the noble Lord to use his influence with the Government to accelerate, as far as possible, the organisation of the gendarmerie of that country. Organisation in Turkey was always difficult, and the organisation of this gendarmerie was especially difficult, and would become impossible if the rebellion broke out again. War would probably follow another outbreak of the disturbances, for the ground had been preparing for it for years, and Bulgaria was probably more prepared and more willing to make war than she was a year ago. Every spring the Macedonians in hundreds crossed the frontier to find employment; and the stories they carried of misrule, murder, and outrage in their own land and the accounts they carried back of constitutional Government and personal freedom in Bulgaria amounted to the preparation of a mine that might at any time explode. He did not wish to criticise His Majesty's Government, but he earnestly pressed them to do their utmost to effect a beginning in the work of organisation to the extent of getting European officers into the Macedonian villages. This would be evidence to the people, who were ignorant of what was going on in Europe, that something was really being done on their behalf.
  MR. WEIRwished to know what progress, if any, had been made in the attempt to come to a satisfactory settlement with the signatories to the North Sea Fisheries Convention in reference to fishing in the Moray Firth and trawling there by foreign vessels. He also desired to know why the Inland Revenue had not refunded the excess of 4d. in the pound for income tax which the Board had deducted from dividends paid in April last to holders of Cape 4 per cent, stock. He was a small stockholder himself, and had had his claim satisfied through the London and Westminster Bank, but the amount of the overcharge amounted in all to £166,000, and this in honesty should be returned. Any honest commercial firm when they found they had been overpaid would at once refund the
  922
  money, and he wished to know what the Government was going to do for the thousands and tens of thousands of widows and orphans whose money was invested in these securities, and who by the action of the Government in this matter were out of pocket to the extent of £166,000. How much of that £166,000 had been repaid and how much had been retained by the Inland Revenue? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated in reply to a Question that the matter was very complicated and that it would take trouble and time to ascertain how much was still in hand. That system of book-keeping was not creditable, and he was ashamed that the British Government should conduct its business in such a manner. He hoped that the Inland Revenue would take steps to have this matter looked to. He complained that the arrangements in Scotland for the supply of lymph for vaccination purposes was of a very unsatisfactory character, and stated that the present system of allowing an official of the Local Government Board, who was receiving a handsome salary, to carry on a trade in lymph was not a creditable state of affairs. Vaccination was compulsory in Scotland, there being no "conscience clause" as in England. It was, therefore, all the more necessary that proper arrangements should be made for the supply of a genuine standard of calf lymph. If that were done he doubted very much whether there would be so many objectors. He asked the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether steps were being taken to induce the Chinese Government to have the obstruction on the Canton River removed. The Chinese Government two years ago entered into an engagement to remove the obstructions, but were very shifty indeed, and it was necessary to be very persistent in our efforts.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,)said with regard to the latter point raised by the hon. Member, they had a treaty right to demand the removal of the obstructions, and the Chinese Government had already taken preliminary steps to secure their removal. The hon. Member for East Bristol dealt

  923
  with the question of negotiations at present proceeding between our Government and the French Government. He understood that the hon. Member thought that, as certain discussions had taken place in the French Press, therefore the French public were placed in a better position than people in this country. He did not think that that was so. The conjectures in the French Press had been repeated in the English Press and, therefore, they were at the disposal of everyone. It would be quite contrary to precedent to enter into any discussion of questions of that character which were under negotiation and with regard to which, he was perfectly certain, there was an earnest desire in that House that they should reach a satisfactory conclusion.
  He passed from this subject to what had been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen, and several other speakers, with regard to Macedonia. They had discussed this question only six weeks ago, and he did not think the House would expect him to say that there had been any change in the general policy adopted by the Government. He did not understand that the right hon. Gentleman attacked that general policy, but he did say that it was a pity that the Government had delegated the initiative in regard to the reforms to what the Member for St. Pancras had spoken of as a sub-committee of the Powers, and thought we should have made greater-progress if we had adopted the initiative ourselves. He hoped that everyone looked upon the action of this country with regard to Macedonia as entirely disinterested; but if we had thrust ourselves to the front, that very fact might have suggested that we had an ulterior motive. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that we might have co-operated in the front line with Italy and France; but he would admit that, if we had taken that course, we should have been acting as a sub-committee of the Powers in precisely the same way as Austria and Russia. We deliberately adopted a back seat, if he might use the expression, in regard to these reforms, and encouraged Austria and Russia to take the initiative, for reasons which had been often explained. They were closer to the seat of
  924
  action, they had most to fear from a violent disturbance of the status quo, and there had been a general agreement between them in regard to the Balkans for some years past. But he did not admit that, because we had not ostentatiously taken the initiative, therefore we had not occupied a prominent position. As a matter of fact, Lord Lansdowne himself suggested the appointment of the two civil assessors, and put forward the appointment of a Christian Governor as an alternative. The appointment of two civil assessors was accepted by the two Powers, and in that respect, at all events, this scheme represented the policy of Lord Lansdowrne.
  The general policy of His Majesty's Government was, and always had been, to support the scheme of the two Powers, with the reservation that it was the irreducible minimum of reform which we could accept, and, if that scheme should unfortunately prove to be a failure, we reserved to ourselves full liberty to put forward alternative proposals of our own. He deplored the delay which had taken place in putting this scheme into effective operation, and he quite agreed that every day the delay continued the less chance of ultimate success there would be. But he thought it was somewhat premature to describe as a failure a scheme which had not yet been applied, and that it would be time enough to so describe it if the two Powers introduced into the scheme limitations and modifications which were inconsistent with its fundamental principles, or if the demands which the two Powers put forward were refused by the Porte. He was happy to say that at present we were not confronted with either of these contingencies. The Powers had been careful to insist that their agents, both civil and military, should have all the power and authority which would be necessary for the adequate discharge of their duties, and the Turkish Government, although they had not yet signified their assent to these demands, had certainly not met them with a categorical refusal. In point of fact, His Majesty's Government had been informed by our Ambassador that the reply of the Porte might be considered as, on the whole, satisfactory. No one regretted more

  925
  than he did that any part of the responsibility for the delay which had occurred should be attributable to the Turkish Government. He regretted it not so much in the interests of the subject population of these provinces, because he thought the Powers were deeply pledged that their interests should not suffer whatever became of this or any other reform—he regretted it far more in the interests of the Turkish Government itself. He was one of those who thought that the Turks did not always receive strict justice at the hands of hon. Members in this House; that sufficient allowance was not always made for the very real difficulties with which the Turkish Government was confronted, or for the susceptibilities of their Mussulman subjects; and that hon. Members were too apt to attribute any delay for which the Turkish Government were responsible to the very worst motives, while saying very little of the delay, not less mischievous, however inevitable, which was attributable to the action of the Chancelleries of Europe. He regretted that attitude on the part of s me Members of this House, because it tended to deprive their opinions and their warnings of that weight and authority at Constantinople which their position in English politics might other wise enable them to exert. But holding that view, he held all the more strongly that it was the duty of those who could take a more dispassionate view to lose no opportunity of impressing upon the Turkish Government that the only result of delaying or imperilling the success of the present reform scheme would be to force upon the consideration of the Powers alternative proposals, which, however effective for the object in view, would certainly be far more distasteful to Turkey. The reforms which they were now pressing upon the Turkish Government were eminently reasonable in character; they did not in the least degree derogate from the sovereign rights of the Sultan, they would confer nothing but benefit upon every class of his subjects, and they were reforms of a kind that had long been eagerly demanded and would certainly be welcomed by a large section of the Mussulman portion of the population.
  926
  They could not forget that Turkey had long ago pledged herself on paper to reforms vaguer perhaps but more drastic and far-reaching in their character than anything contained in the present scheme; and it was obvious that the European Powers might at any moment be driven, by delay that amounted to obstruction or by a refusal of their demands, to demand the execution of the pledges of the Berlin Treaty in their literal and original form. He did not wish in the slightest degree to excuse the Turkish Government for any delay for which hey were responsible, but it was only fair to say that the largest responsibility for the delay which had occurred was not attributable to them. General did Giorgis did not arrive in Constantinople until the beginning of February, and the reforms in their latest form were not presented to the Porte until the first week in March. The delay had been due to the extreme difficulty of settling a number of comparatively small technical points to the satisfaction of the various European Powers who had undertaken to play an active part in this work of reorganisation. The principal points which had been under discussion had been the question of ways and means, the manner in which the gendarmerie fore; was to be paid, the question of the position which was to be occupied by the European officers, and the question of the areas which were to be assigned as their respective spheres of activity. In regard to all these points he thought they might congratulate themselves that some progress had been made. The question of ways and means had been settled with commendable promptitude by the assignment of a large portion of the tithes and taxes of the three vilayets, amounting to £280,000, which were not already assigned for the service of the debt and the railways, and it was understood that those revenues would be paid direct to General di Giorgis by the Ottoman Bank without the intervention of the Turkish Minister of Finance. With regard to the powers and duties of the European officers, their position would not be more anomalous than the position of the two civil assessors. They would be in the service of the Turkish Government, but they would take their orders

  927
  from the Italian General, and, if they were guilty of any offence they would be tried by a Court of their own nationals. He entirely agreed with the view which the right hon. Gentleman expressed with regard to the character of the powers and duties which it would be necessary for these officers to exercise. It was intended that they should be the medium of communicating to the Turkish officers the orders which they received from the Italian general and the staff officers, and they were to report to headquarters any case of disobedience to those orders and any case in which a member of that force was incapacitated either physically or mentally for the proper discharge of the duties which he had to perform.
  He could not make a definite statement just now with reference to the number of officers to be sent out. That point was still under discussion, but the Government lone ago warned the officers whom we should be ready to employ. But it was impossible to say, until they received the text of the demands presented, how many officers would be required in order to carry out the work of reorganisation. He believed that at the present moment the Turkish Government had assented to the employment of twenty-five of these foreign officers. He thought that our best course would be to send out at once the officers for whom sanction had already been obtained. Although the position of these officers might be anomalous their position would be a strong one, because their recommendations would have the united support of the Powers at Constantinople, and the officers themselves would be irremovable. The Powers would also make it clear that if the authority now claimed, or the number of officers now employed, were not adequate for the purpose, additional officers and further powers would be claimed.
  It had been decided also that the forces of the different European Powers were not to be mixed in the same area. Each Power was to have a separate area to itself, and those areas would follow, roughly, the divisions of the civil administrative areas. There would be five of these areas, because Germany apparently did not intend to take any active part in the work of reorganisation. For the
  928
  present it had been decided that those western portions of the vilayets of Nossovo and Monastir should be excluded from the scheme which contained a preponderating element of Albanians. The areas to be assigned to the various Powers had not yet been determined. The Government were anxious that the scheme should be put into working order as soon as possible, and he did not think that they could have given a better proof of their disinterestedness in the matter than by saying that they were willing to waive their own personal convenience and to fall in with any arrangement which might commend itself to the other Powers, or, if that solution were preferred, to decide: the distribution of areas by the rough: and ready but practical expedient of I drawing lots. The Government intended to send the officers from this country to join the Italian general at Salonika as soon as he left Constantinople, and he had heard that day that the idea was that the general should leave Constantinople next week.
  It was true that the appointment of the civil assessors had not, as far as he knew, been accompanied by any fundamental change in the internal administration of the country at present. They had I been engaged for some weeks past in elaborating the details of the scheme of administrative reforms, and the Government hoped that this task was nearing its completion and that the assessors would be in a position to undertake those tours of inquiry which would satisfy the local population of their desire not to rely merely upon hearsay, but to acquaint themselves by personal investigation with the; conditions of the problem which they were expected to solve. They would also be entrusted with the supervision of the distribution of relief, and he could not say that the information which he had received altogether bore out the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the Turkish Government had been throwing great difficulties in the way of the distribution of relief and in the management of hospitals. He would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would communicate any information of that kind he received. On one or two occasions the Government had brought complaints to the notice of the Ambassador for inquiry, but the conditions

  929
  of affairs in the area of relief distribution appeared to be much more satisfactory and the population not nearly so destitute as was at one time believed. It was probable that they would be able to tide over, without any serious risk of famine, the few months that intervened before, the reaping of the harvest, and there seemed to be a general inclination to rely upon the assurances and sincerity of the European Powers instead of exposing themselves once more needlessly to the perils and sufferings of a perfectly useless struggle. That fact threw additional responsibility on the European Powers to show that they were worthy of confidence. It was a responsibility of which His Majesty's Government were deeply sensible: and they would continue in the future, as in the past, relying on the support of all sections of the House and on the opinion of the country, to do their utmost to discharge.
  MR. TREVELYANsaid there was another, subject which he wished to bring before the House. He meant the mission to Tibet. The expeditionary force into Tibet, or the Political mission as it was called, had been stationary for some months, but apparently it was about to move forward, and as far as could be seen there was likely to be opposition on the part of the Tibetans. Although there was not much danger of the expedition being in any way defeated, it became the duty of the House to consider the reason why we were moving forward in this quasi-military manner. They had never had any explicit statement of the reasons why the mission was going forward at all. He approached the matter to a certain extent in a spirit of inquiry. There had been a debate in another place, and, in answer to a series of Questions, a catalogue was given of small incidents and annoyances on the borders, and these were given as a reason for intervention. Lord Hard-wicke on that occasion said that the Tibetans were doing their best to thwart trade with us, and he gave somewhat humorous instances of that. One was, that they built a wall of protection round a town in order to prevent their own traders coming out and doing business with Britishitraders. He thought he
  930
  could convince the House that that reason was very slightly grounded. If they looked at the record of trade with Tibet it would be seen that that trade had steadily risen on both sides. The exports from Tibet rose from seven lakhs of rupees in 1890, to fourteen in 1894, and nineteen in 1902. The exports from British India to Tibet rose from four lakhs of rupees in 1890 to nine lakhs in 1897, and eleven lakhs in 1902. Therefore, although the trade was not increasing with great rapidity, they could put aside the idea that our trade was being ruined. Another reason given for the expedition was that the Tibetans were removing boundary pillars between Tibet and our territory. These pillars were in a country without a population, and at an altitude as high as Mont Blanc where, he should say, the competition for land was not of great importance. Another allegation was that two British subjects who had gone into Tibet had been arrested and not given up. These were the only specific cases ever submitted to Parliament or this country on which it was alleged the mission was necessary. There was, it was true, an objection to the Tibetan policy of isolation. It was true that there was a Government there who would not deal with the British Government; but, surely, that was hardly worth making an invasion for.
  It seemed as if this enterprise was the result of a morbid curiosity on the part of Lord Curzon to get to Lhasa, in order to find out the inner working of the strange State religion of Tibet. He supposed, however, they were expected to believe that the real reason was the old bugbear of Russia. He would not argue the general question of Russia's intention towards India, but he would point out that, of all the causes of fear of Russia, this was the least that had ever occurred in the history of England. There was a report of Russian envoys going to Lhasa, and that this Government asked the Russian Government what it meant. All that Lord Lansdowne could say in regard to that in the House of Lords was that it was not what the Russians had done, but what the Tibetans imagined they would do, which had given rise to these reports; and that he gave no credence to the rumours. Lord Lansdowne

  931
  accepted the words of Count Benckendorff that there was no convention cither with Tibet or China, nor anyone else in regard to Tibet, nor had the Russian Government any agent in Tibet nor had they any intention of sending an agent there. Lhasa was 1,200 miles from Yar-kand, and 700 miles from the boundary of Eastern Turkestan. The intervening district was a high, wild, desert, unpopulated country, over which the Russians would have to march if they thought of approaching India in that way. It seemed a very strong measure, with this small evidence of Russia's intention, and this immense territory that the Russians would have to traverse, to send an armed force into this harmless country. And what effect would it have on Russia, if any? It was obviously, if anything, a challenge to her, an irritant, an attempt to steal a march upon her, just at the moment that she was engaged elsewhere. It would simply create hostility in Russia where none existed previously. If we were to interfere anywhere whilst Russia was occupied in the Far East, we might as well interfere in Macedonia. The speech they had just listened to from the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs was not particularly hopeful. The noble Lord talked of England taking a strong line in the future, but that they must have consideration for the susceptibilities of the Porte. He did not think that that indicated to the Porte, or anyone else, that there was much chance of England intervening. Besides, the Porte knew that, whatever the intentions of Russia might be, she was unable to intervene in Macedonia during the complications in the Far East. It was time for England, he insisted, to take the lead once more in the Near East. It would be much better to do that than embark in a new war in a country with which we had nothing to do and in order merely to satisfy a morbid curiosty.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLINsaid that although neither the Chief Secretary nor the Attorney-General for Ireland were in their places, he wished to take the opportunity of raising the question of transit between the Castlecomer Collieries and Kilkenny.
  932
  They had heard a great deal from a member of the Government of the need of the Irish people doing something for their own industries instead of continually appealing to the Government for support. Now, in these Castlecomer Collieries there was a proof of the anxiety of the people of Ireland to do something for themselves; but the Government had neither directly nor indirectly used its influence with the large railway-companies in Ireland to facilitate the transit of the coal from these collieries to other parts of Ireland, although the development of these mines was of the greatest importance, not only to the people of the district, but to the was South of Ireland. No less than 80,000 tons of coal were raised from the mines every year—coal which had been found superior to Welsh coal—and at present there were 100 people employed. The cost of carriage for the eight miles to the nearest station was 6s. 8d. per ton, which, added to the cost of production, made it impossible to compete with the Welsh coal in the market. It was a perfect scandal that it should cost less to bring coal from Swansea in Wales to Cork, than from Castlecomer to Kilkenny, a distance of only eight miles. In 1801 a grant of £40,000 was made by the Board of Inland Navigation for the purpose of constructing a canal for the development of these mines; but not a single farthing of that money had ever been spent. He was entitled to ask the Government what had been done with that £40,000. The population of the district of Castlecomer had been going down considerably for thirty years, and he thought that the Government should take some steps to encourage this great industry and restore the population to the district. They had recently had a discussion on the expedition to Somali land which cost £400,000, and could not the Chief Secretary offer some encouragement to the people to maintain an industry in a land where industries had practically disappeared. The right hon. Gentleman might say that he could not compel the Treasury to listen to claims of that character, which he admitted were just, but he (Mr. Devlin) could not understand that plea because he knew perfectly well that the Chief Secretary was the most suave and eloquent rhetorician

  933
  in that House, and whether it was on questions of fiscal policy, Chinese labour, or the war in South Africa, the right hon. Gentleman was requisitioned to defend the Government. Surely some of that rhetoric and suavity might be exercised by the right hon. Gentleman in the Cabinet on behalf of Ireland and its resources. It was a perfect scandal that these industries should be left in their present condition for lack of the necessary facilities of transport, and he appealed to the Chief Secretary to use his influence with the Great Southern and Western Railway to facilitate the delivery of the consignments from the colleries of Castlecomer.
  MR. AUSTIN TAYLORsaid he desired to call the attention of the Secretary to the Colonies to a matter not in connection with the much debated question of Chinese labour, but to the supply of stores and materials for the public departments of the Transvaal. That was a subject not unworthy of the attention of the House, because, if those colonies were to be a success, it was essential that the stores and materials supplied to their public departments should be bought in the cheapest market and of the best quality. In the time of the late Mr. Kruger—he meant in the time of the late President Kruger—these colonies were free to buy as they liked, and the House knew to its cost that their purchases were extremely efficient and as good as could be purchased by this country. Under the existing system the Transvaal was obliged to buy all its stores and materials for the public departments from the Crown Agents, and he thought it was not a waste of time to inquire whether through these Crown Agents they were obtaining stores and materials on the most economical terms. The Crown Agents were no doubt most estimable gentlemen. They had an office in Tokenhouse Yard for a staff that dealt with stores and materials for forty-four colonies and protectorates forming the whole of the British Empire outside India and the self-governing Colonies. Take the case of railways. In 1901 the railways in the Transvaal that a voice in the management of their own concerns, and
  934
  bought their own stores and materials, but now they were under strict regulations to buy their stores and materials through the Crown Agents, and were not allowed to purchase, even locally, anything that could be procured through the Agents in London. He wished to ask whether any complaint had been received respecting the stores and materials that had been furnished to the public departments, and more particularly to the railways of the Transvaal, through these Crown Agents. The Secretary to the Colonies had recently issued a Paper marked Cd. 1944 defining the duties and status of these Crown Agents. It might surprise the House to know that this was the first document for nearly a quarter of a century that had been issued from the Colonial Office defining the duties and position of Crown Agents. A great deal had happened during the last quarter of a century. In 1881 a Paper was issued dealing with the duties of Crown Agents and after the lapse of so long a time the curtain had been again lifted upon a system which controlled the whole commercial and financial business of the public departments of no less than forty-four colonies and protectorates of the British Empire, to which the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony had now been added.
  The transactions carried through by these three gentlemen were understood to be very large indeed. He did not possess the exact figures, but he believed that in 1903 they handled a sum not very much inferior in magnitude to the sum handled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the United Kingdom. In fact, he understood that little short of £100,000,000 passed through the hands of these Agents over whose business and administration the House of Commons had no control whatever, and as to the commissions they received, the House had no exact knowledge. They had handled the Transvaal loan of £30,000,000 in 1903, which had already been discussed in the House. He understood that the Crown Agents wanted to have the floating of that loan, but that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer put down his foot and would not allow it; but all the same, in their accounts for 1903, they did operate this loan in some connection, and he

  935
  desired to ask whether they received any commission on that loan of £30,000,000, and more particularly whether they charged the scale of commission that they were entitled to charge upon all financial business. They were entitled to charge a commission of ½ per cent on the issue and repayment of a loan and¼ per cent, on the payment of interest. He would like to know whether that commission of½ per cent, was charged because it would represent £150,000, and he would further like to know whether they were entitled to charge the ¼ per cent, on the interest.
  Then he wanted to ask a few questions about, West Africa. He understood that the price of coal charged for the Lagos Railway in 1902 was £2 10s. per ton. The best South Wales coal could be bought in this country for 15s. per ton. The freight to West Africa under ordinary circumstances would not exceed 15s, which would make £1 10s. per ton, and he was at a loss to account for the extra £1 which brought the price up to £2 10s. per ton—a price against which the railway lodged a complaint, with the result that in 1903, as he understood from the right hon. Gentleman, they were allowed to buy the coal direct. Yet it was laid down that nothing should be bought locally by a department or by any public works administration that could be bought in this country, and surely if there was one article more than another that could be bought cheaply in England it was coal, the price of which was cut finer than any article except, perhaps, cotton or coffee. Peculiar importance was attached at the present moment to transport in West Africa, because efforts were being made to stimulate the growing of cotton in the British Empire It was all very well for Man Chester and Liverpool to exert themselves over the question of the growing of cotton in the British Empire, but he was inclined to think that the true need of the moment was not so much the growing of cotton as its transport, from the interior to the coast of West Africa, and that could only brought about by the rapid construction of railways especially adapted to the country, which could be laid down economically, with a minimum of delay, and would carry at such rates of freights
  936
  as to encourage rather than discourage those who desired to supply this country with cotton. He trusted that this I question of transport between Nigeria I and the coast would be dealt with on the lines of modern enterprise, and not in an atmosphere of officialism and red tape, and if it were found that the system of the Crown Agents was expensive and dilatory, he hoped the Colonial Secretary would have the courage to set it aside.
  The whole question was really one which could be called "Tied-house Imperialism." The Colonies were compelled to come to this country for the whole of their stores and materials for their public works, whether telegraphs, railways, bridges, iron, piping, or electrical appliances. The result of that system might be either good or bad, but he was inclined to think that as it was quite outside the purview of the House of Commons it was desirable that it should enlist a little more attention. What was the possible result of the prohibition to purchase stores locally? If British makers who were represented in British colonies were debarred from obtaining orders for Government work on the spot, they were at a disadvantage as compared with their foreign competitors. A pushing firm in England desiring to open a branch house at Colombo or Singapore would know that it stood no chance of getting a share of the Government work because it was part of the system that all orders must be given to the Crown Agents in England. The people in the Malay States requiring lubricating oil had made local contracts, although there was an English company ready to do business with them but was debarred from so doing.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: The American companies give better terms. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be glad to hear the reason why these contracts are given to the American Standard Oil Company is because that company gives better terms. He will find that that company has many contracts in this country.
  MR. AUSTIN TAYLORdid not understand what the hon. Gentleman meant by better terms, seeing that all orders had to come through the Crown Agents and no opportunity was given to

  937
  place them elsewhere. He thought the right hon. Gentleman might in his reply deal with the question whether these colonies and protectorates were being supplied as efficiently and economically by the Crown Agents as they might be under a more elastic system of open competition. It was to him a matter of surprise that these gentlemen should be operating enormous sums year after year entirely outside the purview of the House of Commons, and without any means being afforded for having a discussion on their accounts year by year. Although their accounts were audited by the Accountant-General they were not laid on the Table of the House, and if in that House they were to think Imperially they might turn their attention to prosaic duties of the nature he now indicated.
  MR. HARRISsaid the Crown Agents were engaged in transactions which involved the receipt and payment of stupendous sums of money; they enjoyed unlimited powers, and were quite beyond the control of the Colonial Secretary; they owned no responsibility either to the House of Commons or to the Legislative Assemblies of the colonies, who were forced to employ their services. He understood that the financial transactions of the Crown Agents for the Colonies in recent years amounted to no less than the combined Estimates for the Army and Navy, and yet in spite of that fact neither the salaries of the officials nor their transactions were submitted to Parliament for criticism and review. Those gentlemen had the exclusive privilege of purchasing s ores and materials for forty-four colonies and protectorates and for the construction of railways in Africa. The strangest part of the business was that hardly a transaction was carried through between this country and the Crown Colonies on which the Crown Agents did not in some way or other get a commission. When we lent £35,000,000 to the Transvaal they got a commission on both the loan and the interest, while in regard to railway construction in South Africa, the Crown Agents got a commission on all purchases of bridges and of stock. Further than that, they charged commission on all investments by the Colonies
  938
  of their surplus funds. The late Colonial Secretary stated, in answer to a Question by the hon. Member for Chesterfield, that in 1901 £80,000 was paid to them in I commission. This money, however, did not go into the pockets of the Crown Agents but was, he believed, invested to make up deficiencies on previous years and to allow of pensions being paid to those who had served in the office. He had therefore, no complaint to make against the gentlemen who now held these offices; their character was absolutely unimpeachable and beyond suspicion, but he would remind the House that complaints were constantly being made both by private firms in this country and by the Colonics that their interests were being treated in a way that they considered unfair. There was one complaint which was being constantly made. He found, on referring to the Report of the Special Commission which sat on Civil Establishments in 1888, it was laid down that no permanent officer on the establishment was to be permitted to take part in the management of any insurance company or any trading or financial company. This condition must either have been broken or rescinded, for one of these gentlemen was a director of the London Assurance Company, which enjoyed practically the whole of the insurance business passing through the hands of the Crown Agents. This business had represented many hundreds of thousands of pounds in recent years. It might, indeed, be useful that the Colonial Office should be represented on the board of that company, and he did not suggest that there was anything in this that was not bond fide, but it seemed to him unfortunate that a gentleman should occupy the dual position of Crown Agent, having the control of all this insurance business, and at the same time sit as director on the board of the Company which got the business, to led, at any rate, to a great deal of scandal and gossip, which in this case, no doubt, was absolutely unfounded, but which at the same time was natural and excusable. This was to his mind an opportune time for securing that the responsibilities of Parliament should be made less indirect and less vague in regard to the relations between the Crown Agents for the Colonies

  939
  and His Majesty's Government. He would urge the right hon. Gentleman to consider the advisability of the appointment of a Committee to consider the whole subject, or else that his right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary should look into the constitution and management of the office of the Crown Agents with the thoroughness which characterised all his actions. That would, he was sure, satisfy the House.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he was well aware that the Crown Agents themselves had no direct pecuniary interest in these contracts, as they were paid fixed salaries, but he was bound to admit that too much mystery surrounded the Crown Agents' Office, which ought to be dissolved by some form of inquiry. Two complaints were advanced against the Crown Agents. One was that they were allowed to spend large sums of public money without any control, and the other was that they were dilatory, unbusiness like, and expensive in their operations. It was also urged that the system under which orders had necessarily to be placed in this country, did a great deal to discourage local enterprise. These two complaints entitled them to demand a Committee of Inquiry not into the probity or bond fides of the Crown Agents, but as to whether that office could not be placed on a more business-like footing. It seemed absolutely essential to have an immediate inquiry into the position of the Crown Agents. What had made the Civil Service such as it was? It was beyond fear and reproach because there was no suspicion that our public officials had any personal interest in the business which they transacted. Now the House were told that the chief Crown Agent, Sir Edward Blake, was a director of a public company doing business with the Crown Agents. Surely it was the duty of the Colonial Secretary to sever that connection at once, for obviously it was not a proper position for the head of a public department handling many millions of money during the year. The time had arrived when a Committee of this House should inquire into the functions of the Crown Agents and see whether they could not be put on a better basis, affording
  940
  greater publicity, and getting rid of scandal if it existed.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,)said that the basis upon which the operations of the Crown Agents were conducted, and which hitherto had been supported by both Parties in the State, was that it was desirable that the Crown Colonies should have agents in this country, and that their interests were best served by having agents who would deal for all the Crown Colonies together. This system undoubtedly possessed great merits, although naturally it was open to some criticism. The Crown Agents had an immense area to operate upon and immense credit at their command. They had great experience, they conducted their operations for a very low commission indeed, and the result was that they were able to command a vast quantity of business and dealt with the very best possible manufacturers of this and other kingdoms. Any dereliction on the part of manufacturers could at once be visited severely by striking them off the Crown Agents' list, with the result that they got no further share in what was undoubtedly a very fine business. Moreover, very great disadvantages were obviated in the Crown Colonies themselves. A great many of the Crown Colonies were not producers of the articles which they found it necessary to obtain, and they sent the order to the Agents, who at once procured the required articles from the widest market at the lowest possible price, they having the command of the market. If a Crown Colony were left to itself to order its own commodities there was a very great temptation. Local manufacturers were not on the spot, but agents and travellers from all over the world went to the Colonies, and a very great temptation was offered in the form of commissions to those who were dealing with these matters in the Crown Colonies. He dared say they could resist that temptation, but it was temptation, and it was very desirable that it should not be offered. His hon. friend was incorrect in saying that the system was a discouragement to local production.
  MR. AUSTIN TAYLOR: I did not say that; my point was that it was a discouragement to British firms to open agencies for the sale of their goods in these colonies.
  MR. LYTTELTONsaid these agencies needed to be remunerative and they could not, therefore, do the work for the 1 per cent, which the Crown Agents received. The general theory of the system was that in the Crown Agents they had a very large and experienced firm at home, not dependent on orders, but paid by a moderate and fixed salary. The salary of the senior Crown Agent was only £2,500 a year. This general system, which every Party in the State had approved for many years, was one in the interests, broadly speaking, of the Colonies. They obtained their goods more cheaply and of better quality; they, in fact, obtained the best treatment. The remuneration of the Agents was of a very moderate character. The scale of charges laid down was a uniform commission of 1 per cent, on all stores, and on loans,½ per cent, on the i sue and¼ per cent, on the repayment of interest. It was true that this amounted to a very large sum in the case of the Transvaal loan, but that was a very exceptional transaction, and he did not think I that the Crown Agents had ever before had to raise a loan exceeding £5,000.000. These charges were the only source of in-come received by the Crown Agents' Office. The office expenses were paid out of the commissions, and the balance was carried to a reserve fund, out of which losses, if they occurred, were made good. Admitting that there might be something in the point raised by the hon. Member for Poplar that there should be more control, if possible, he submitted that they got, in the present system, a very great service performed for the Crown Colonies at a very moderate charge indeed, more moderate than if private agents were employed, and they had also the benefit of immense experience placed at the service of the Crown Colonies. His right hon. friend the Member for West Birmingham had made an elaborate inquiry into this whole question, with the result that he found the complaints of the system were very few, and his general conclusion was
  942
  that it was a good system and not to be disturbed. Whatever the House might think of some opinions of his right hon. friend, all would probably agree that few men had more knowledge and more acute perception of business matters than he. Special reference had been made to the charge for coal for the Lagos Railway, but that, he believed, was bought locally, and the Crown Agents were not responsible for it. With regard to the necessity, in West Africa, of transport for the benefit of the cotton industry, he pointed out: that the moment was not very favourable for additional financial operations. Complaint had been made of the expensive character of the railways constructed in South Africa, but the choice had to be made between laying down lines which would require to be renewed in a few years or having them so constructed as to avoid the necessity for such renewal. He was not aware that any of the Crown Agents were directors of any company, and he did not know what the practice was. He was sorry that his hon. friend had brought this matter forward without acquainting him beforehand, but obviously it would not be right that, in a personal matter and without notice, he should say a word with reference to it without having seen the gentleman concerned.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLcalled attention to the Provostship of Trinity College and felt obliged to say that the right hon. Gentleman had given improper advice to the King in regard to the appointment of Dr. Traill. He had given notice of this Question, and he trusted that the Minister concerned would be sent for, and that the right hon. Gentleman would do him the honour of coming into the House. They had no concern with the dispensation of patronage generally but the Provost of Trinity College was in a somewhat different position. He thought the Prime Minister, in regard to this question, had given improper advice to His Majesty the King by the appointment of Dr. Traill, having regard to the state of the Irish University question at the present time, and the great desire that it should be settled on the most amicable basis; and he thought that it was a mistake to appoint to one of the greatest academic prizes in Europe

  943
  a gentleman who was against the recognition of Roman Catholic rights, who was the champion on the landlord side in the land war, who was a politician first and a scholar afterwards. The salary was something like £4,500 a year and the house attached to the Provostship was one of the most beautiful palaces in Europe. This appointment was generally given as a reward of merit and not for political services. The gentleman who was placed at the head of Trinity College must necessarily have a very commanding and influential vote in every matter affecting Irish University education. It was therefore an imperative obligation upon the Prime Minister, who was a pretended advocate of the extension of University education to Catholics, that he should not put in that position a man who was a bitter antagonist of Catholic rights and privileges and of popular rights and privileges in Ireland. Dr. Traill was as much a Party politician as he was himself, and he was certainly the last person who should have been chosen for the head of a college devoted to learning and intellectual achievement. When by means of a Question he asked the Prime Minister upon whose advice this appointment had been made the right hon. Gentleman declared that it was on his own advice, but he did not think it proper at the time to give the reasons why he gave such advice. The appointment was calculated to exasperate religious difficulties in Ireland and to retard instead of settling on an amicable basis the important University question. Having regard to the deleterious results of the appointment, he declared it to be perhaps the most pernicious which had been made since the Union, and certainly since the appointment of Judge Keogh in 1857. In the past the Provostship of Trinity College had always been considered a reward of merit, and it was a very sad thing that the appointment should now have been given to a Party hack. The right hon. Gentleman had no doubt seen the statue to Edmund Burke at
  944
  Trinity College. The other day he came across a letter written by Burke to the Prime Minister at a time when there was a vacancy in the Provostship of Trinity College, Dublin, and he characterised the appointment of the Provost in a way in which he would not venture to characterise the appointment of Dr. Traill. Burke called it "a shameful job," and he said it ought not to be considered a thing of promiscuous patronage which might as well be given to one man as another.
  He wished to say nothing in disparagement of Dr. Traill beyond saying that his qualifications were not such as fitted him for the post to which he had been appointed. He was not distinguished in the world of letters, he had taken a fellowship, but he had never occupied a professorial chair, and as The Times said of him: "He had not secured and did not claim eminence as a scholar." That was the gentleman who had been placed at the head of a great university with its great influence on the educational system of Ireland. The Prime Minister had said that he was responsible for the appointment, but apparently he was not very well versed in constitutional usage. This appointment was not actually in the right hon. Gentleman's gift, but it was the gift of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and therefore the person responsible was not the Prime Minister but the Chief Secretary for Ireland, who would not have appointed Dr. Traill. But Dr. Traill had taken a keen interest in land legislation, he had an estate in Ulster, he was a member of the Committee of the Landowners' Convention, and he was an Orangeman. The right lion. Gentleman said he wearied of details, but there was one detail which he would not weary of, and perhaps he would recollect the celebrated battering-ram which was given to the Irish police during the time he was Chief Secretary for Ireland, and which was designed by a Committee of which Dr. Traill was a member. Was that a qualification for a gentleman at the head of a great edu-

  945
  cational institution? Dr. Traill had met his hon. friend the Member for South Tyrone in the land war, and he had fought in the land Courts with great persistency. Such things were not qualifications for the headship of a great university, Dr. Traill sat on the Fry Land Commission, not in the interests of the tenants, but in the interests of the landlords, and therefore he was not the man for such a post, where he would have great influence over the educational system, and his appointment would retard the movement for extending university education among all classes in Ireland. Dr. Traill was not a great scholar, but he was a good Orangeman. Had this appointment been given as a sop to the Orange Members, to whom Dr. Traill and his friends wrote canvassing for the appointment? If the Prime Minister had taken the advice of the Chief Secretary another appointment would have been made. The right hon. Gentleman's correspondence was very extensive, and no doubt he had had some letters from very influential persons urging him to make this appointment. The Times had said that Dr. Traill was not a contributor to the world of letters. He pointed out a' a suggestive fact that the appointment of Dr. Traill was not announced until half an hour after the poll, in the recent election in Dublin, closed. The fear was that if announced before the poll closed the Government would lose many respectable voters. Outside persons who were engaged in active political life, Dr. Traill's name was utterly unknown, and by his appointment grave injustice had been done. There was a gentleman whose name the mere mention of Trinity College suggested. That gentleman was
  946
  a distinguished scholar, but he was disqualified because, although a strong Protestant, he wished to extend the rights and blessings of university education to Irish Catholics. For that reason he had been kept out of Trinity College. The First Lord of the Treasury was the last person who should have appointed Dr. Traill, and that appointment had not been received with favour in Trinity College.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): The hon. Gentleman appears to have supposed that, in objecting to his raising the question of the advice that I thought it was my duty to give in reference to the appointment to Trinity College, I objected to its being brought before Parliament. That is not the case.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid what the right hon. Gentleman objected to was that he should be asked for his reasons; for that advice.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: When it comes S to personal claims, and rival personal I claims, it probably is not expedient that the House should devote much of its time to such a discussion. But as the hon. Gentleman has thought fit to raise the ' question, I will endeavour very briefly to deal with the speech which he has just delivered. I may say at once that there has happened to me upon this occasion what does not always happen to me when I listen to the hon. Gentleman — I have: learned a great deal from his speech which I did not know before. It never occurred to me until the hon. Gentleman; informed me that Dr. Traill's appointment

  947
  was due to his having been what the hon. Gentleman described as a Party hack, or that he merited the appointment by being a member of the Landlords' Convention and serving on the Fry Commission. In these various capacities —all useful in their way — Dr. Traill may have earned the gratitude of this or that section of the community, but not one of these considerations entered into my mind even for a moment when I was considering the propriety of recommending him for the appointment to Trinity College. And I may say, though the hon. Gentleman will hardly believe it—
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I will believe anything.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Then I proceed with the greater confidence to Inform the hon. Gentleman that even the battering-ram which was designed, as I understand him, by the Landlords' Convention of which Dr. Traill was a member—even the invention of that interesting implement of agrarian warfare was not present to my mind when I was dealing with the large correspondence which this appointment entailed upon me, or when I was considering what decision it was my duty to come to upon this subject. It may be that Dr. Traill was the actual designer of the instrument in question, but until to-night I never heard a suggestion on that point And though he is a distinguished mathematician, and though I know as a fact that he has, by his personal exertions, established a great engineering school in Trinity College, Dublin, I am not aware that the efforts cither of that school, or of any of the pupils in it, were
  948
  devoted to designing the most efficient method of providing a battering-ram by which the operations of the law might be expedited.
  The hon. Gentleman, having given this narrative of the qualifications, as he conceived them, of Dr. Traill, proceeded to give us an enumeration of the disqualifications which he thought Dr. Traill possessed. He said, in the first place, that Dr. Traill's appointment threw back the cause of general university education in Ireland, for which, he was good enough to observe, I was a pretended advocate. If I am only a pretended advocate of the extension of university education in Ireland) my fate is indeed a hard one; for I have certainly quarrelled with a great many of my English friends over the subject, and I do not appear to have made friends with the Gentlemen whose interests are primarily concerned. I am sorry that so unhappy a result should attend all my efforts, which, according to the hon. Gentleman, were only pretended at the best, and I suppose now vanished altogether. My desire to see university education extended to the great body of the Irish people has suffered no diminution either by the lapse of time or by personal defections; but I am utterly at a loss to understand how the appointment of Dr. Traill to the headship of what is at the present one of the places, no doubt by far the most distinguished, in which university education is given in Ireland, militates against the establishment of other institutions in which the same university education can be given. I do not know—I have not thought it my business to inquire— but it may be that Dr. Traill does not take the same view that I take of the

  949
  necessity for extending University education in Ireland. I have never asked whether he agreed with me in that or in any other opinion. But let us grant that he differs from mo. I wholly fail to see how it is in his power to retard for one instant any decision which this House or any other body competent to deal with the matter may arrive at in connection with that great question. Dr. Traill, no doubt, as Provost of Trinity College, Dublin, will have great influence over that college, which is now, and has for years been, open to students of all denominations. But unless the hon. Gentleman anticipates that the problem of university education in Ireland is to be solved by entirely changing the character of Trinity College, Dublin, and making that the actual organ of education, I fail to understand how the fact that a gentleman of Dr. Traill's opinions, whatever they may be—how his appointment to the headship of that college can affect either for good or evil the general course of the controversy which has so long raged on this question. The other disqualifications which the hon. Gentleman finds in Dr. Traill I do not think I need refer to. He read a long extract from a correspondence with a learned Judge, of the merits of which I know nothing. But I did not understand that it was on the merits of the controversy between Dr. Traill and the learned Judge that the hon. Member was exercised. It was that in the final sentence of Dr. Traill's letter he said "hung" when he should have said "hanged" I do not pronounce on the delicate question of English raised by the hon. Gentleman. But supposing that Dr. Traill did say "hung" when he should have said "hanged"—a fault to
  950
  which I am myself liable—I could point out in Dr. Traill's excuse that his academic distinction was mathematical and not linguistic, and, however inadmissible it may be to a great classical scholar to say "hung" when he should have said "hanged," a distinguished mathematician may be permitteda lapse of that character.
  My only other observation is this. The hon. Gentleman has indicated that in his opinion the appointment of Dr. Traill belongs to the same class as those appointments which in the eighteenth century were the scandal of Irish government. It is perfectly notorious that all through that century, after Grattan's Parliament was established, as well as before it, political appointments were made which did very little credit, I will not say to the individuals, but to the system under which they were made.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid that Dr. Traill was the thirty-sixth Provost of the college since its foundation, and, with one exception of a Provost who was appointed before 1782, every appointment had been desirable.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not compete with the hon. Gentleman in knowledge of the long series of doubtless distinguished men who have filled the office of Provost of Trinity College. His opinion, so I gather from his speech, is that no man should be appointed to Trinity College unless he has written some work of European fame. I do not for a moment doubt that the works of European fame by the thirty-five predecessors of Dr. Traill exist, or that the hon. Gentleman is prepared to tell us, having studied those works, that they all deserved their appointments. My

  951
  knowledge is incomparably less than that of the hon. Gentleman, but I really am not sure that, except the works of the late Dr. Salmon, I remember having read the works of any of the previous Provosts, though doubtless they exist.
  MR. SWIFF MAGNEILL: Have you ever heard of Bishop Bethell?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have not read his works, doubtless the hon. Gentleman has. But, at all events, however eminent that particular ecclesiastic may have been, I have not got to consider that point, but Dr. Traill's qualifications for the position which I have recommended. Dr. Traill has devoted long years of energetic labour to the interests of the college he represents, he has worked actively and strenuously in its interests; and, so far as I was able to discover during the not restricted correspondence which I had on the subject, his was the appointment which would give most satisfaction to the graduates of Trinity college, not including the hon Gentleman—I am not sure whether he is or is not a graduate.
  MR. SWIFT MAGNEILL: No. I have not the honour.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I thought from the enthusiasm with which the hon. Gentleman spoke that he was.
  MR. SWIFT MAGNEILL: I spent one happy year of my life there, and I have been one of the examiners.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I admit that one year is not a long academic
  952
  career, though it may leave most pleasant recollections behind it. But after all, the duty of the adviser to the Crown must include the consideration of the feelings, opinions, and wishes of those over whom the Provost of the college is appointed to preside. I do not say or think that that should be the solitary consideration, I do not say or think that an unworthy candidate, however popular, ought to be appointed; but when I find, as I did find in this case, or believed myself to find, that there was a strong trend of Trinity College opinion in favour of Dr. Traill, I felt that that was a most weighty consideration, and one that it was impossible for me to neglect. I think it would be improper if I were to go further into this matter; nobody who knows Dr. Traill doubts, whether he may say "hung" or "hanged," that he is an extremely able administrator, nobody will deny that in dealing with the business of this great institution he possesses, and is likely to continue to possess, the confidence of those whoso interests he serves. Whether those be or be not adequate reasons for his appointment, I think the House at large, and even the hon. Gentleman himself, will admit that the reasons, adequate or inadequate, are at least not unworthy.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL.
Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Adjourned at ten minutes after Twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—South Shields Gas; Kettering Improvement; Littlestone-on-Sea and District Water.
And also the Certificates that the £ Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—Metropolitan Common Scheme (Farnborough) Provisional Order; Metropolitan Common Scheme (Hillingdon East) Provisional Order. The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Weaver Navigation (Additional Finance) Bill [H.L.]. The LORD CHANCELLOR informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill. The orders made on the 19th of February and Thursday last discharged. Ordered, That the Bill be not s further proceeded with.
Weaver Navigation (Constitution and Finance) Bill [H.L.]. The LORD CHANCELLOR informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill. The orders made on the 19th of February and Thursday last discharged. Ordered, That the Bill be not further proceeded with.
New River Company Bill [H.L.]; Victoria University of Yorkshire Bill [H.L.]. now University of Leeds Bill [H.L.]; Huddersfield Corporation Act, 1902 (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]; Liverpool and London and Globe Insurance Company Bill [H.L.]; Gosport Water Bill [H.L.], Victoria University of Manchester Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 3131. Argentine Republic (Finances); No. 3132. Western Pacific (Samoa). Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
LOCOMOTIVES ON HIGHWAYS ACT, 1896, AND MOTOR CAR ACT, 1903.
Regulations of Local Government Board as to registration and licensing of motor cars under Section 6 of the Locomotives on Highways Act, 1896, and Section 7 of the Motor Car Act, 1903.
MOTOR CAR ACTS.
Regulations as to use and construction of motor cars made by the Local Government Board under Section 6 of the Locomotives on Highways Act, 1896.
GENERAL MEDICAL COUNCIL (RECEIPTS AND EXPENDITURE).
Returns of the receipts and expenditure of the General Medical Council and of the Branch Councils, also of receipts and expenditure of the Dental Registration Fund, for the year ended 31st December, 1903.
SUPERANNUATION.
Treasury Minute, dated 24th March, 1904, granted a retired allowance to Thomas G. Stuart-French, Upper Division Clerk, Secretary's Office, Post Office, under Section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887.

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS, 1853 TO 1891 (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
Licence granted by His Majesty to Emma Mary Agnes West, a convict under detention in Aylesbury Prison, permitting her to be at large on condition that she enter the East End Refuge, Finchley, N.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. considered (according to order), and suspended for this day's sitting.
SITE FOR DUKE OF YORK'S SCHOOL BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to order); Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS (FUNDS) BILL.
Read 3 (according to order), and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. to be considered To-morrow in order to its being suspended for that day's sitting.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed by the Earl Waldegrave.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la. Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bill read 2a—{The Lord Windsor). Committee negatived. Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned at ten minutes past Twelve o'clock a.m. till Three o'clock.