Sitting of 6 July 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.
Barry Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill [Lords]; Oakengates and Dawley Joint Water Board Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
Milwr and District Mines Drainage Bill [Lords] (by Order). Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.
Airdrie Corporation Gas Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Wishaw Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Considered, to be read the third time upon Friday.
Arbroath Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill; Dunfermline District Water Order Confirmation Bill. Read a second time; to be considered upon Friday.

RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP 9).
Sir EDWARD STRACHEY reported from the Committee on Group 9 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday, 19th July, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against; from Andover; Arnold; Arreton (two); Ashington; Awsworth; Ayr (two); Barnsley; Barrugh; Batley; Beccles; Blackburn; Blyth; Bolton (two): Broughton; Bucks-burn; Bungay; Carlton; Chester le Street; Choppington (two); Clanville; Coedpoeth; Croydon; Cudworth; Cymmaes; Darfield; Deansgate; Dodworth; East Kirkby; Edge Hill; Egremont (three); Esholt; Gawber; Glamorgan (three); Glasgow; Gorseinon; Great
  770
  Houghton; Grimesthorpe; Guisboro'; Hartlepool; Hemsworth; Hetton le Hole; High Wycombe; Hirst; Hove; Hurst-bourne Priors; Keighley; Kensington; Leyland; Llwynhendy; Low Green; Lower Chute; Malton; Middlewich; Moor Row (three); Morpeth; Milton Green; New Basford; Newchurch; New Lenton; North Walsham; Nottingham (two); Osmaston; Overton; Portmadoc; Preston; Rhyl; Royston; St. Andrews; St. Meryn; Saltney; Seghill; Shafton; Sheffield; Shoreditch; South Hindley; Sowerby; Staincross; Stockport (two); Stone; Sunderland (two); Thruxton; Tranmere; Tregonna; Tulse Hill; Warrington; Weston Point; Wherwell; Whitchurch; Whittington; Wigton; Willington on Tyne; and Worthing; to lie upon the Table.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Petition from Nottingham, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  SEA FISHERIES BILL [LORDS].
  Petition from Lowestoft, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SHOP HOURS BILL.
  Petition of the Scottish Trade Protection Society, against; to lie upon the Table.
  VALUATION BILL.
  Petitions for alteration; from Cannock; and Howden; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Regulations for the Instruction and Training of Pupil Teachers from 1st August, 1904, to 31st July, 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  GOVERNMENT LABORATORY.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Principal Chemist upon the work of the Government Laboratory for the year ended 31st March, 1904, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 30th June, 1904, declaring that for the due and efficient discharge of the duties of the office of Director of Barrack Construction, War Office, professional or other peculiar qualifications not ordinarily to be

  771
  acquired in the Public Service are required [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  TRADE REPORTS.
  Copy presented, of Index to Reports of His Majesty's Diplomatic and Consular Representatives Abroad on Trade and Subjects of General Interest (with Appendix), 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE WITH PERSIA.
  Copy presented, of Report on the Condition and Prospects of British Trade in Persia, by H. W. Maclean, Special Commissioner of the Commercial Intelligence Committee of the Board of Trade [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3202 to 3206 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of Twenty-second Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland, being for the year 1903. Part III. Scientific Investigations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  DIPLOMATIC REPORTS (COAL).
  Return ordered, "of Extracts relating to Coal from the Reports received up to the present date from His Majesty's Diplomatic and Consular Officers Abroad for 1903."—(Mr. Fenwick.)

  IRON AND STEEL, 1903.
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum and Statistical Tables showing the produc-

  Cause of accident.

  Total number of accidents to persons or property.

  Number of accidents to property.

  Number of accidents to persons.

  Total number of persons injured in accidents shown in column 4.

  Nature of accidents to persons enumerated in column 4.

  No. Slight.

  No. Serious.

  No. Fatal.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  5.

  6.

  7.

  8.

  Motor cars

  1,624

  1,281

  462

  510

  424

  73

  13

  Motor cycles

  193

  94

  120

  130

  108

  18

  4

  Horses

  445

  147

  332

  337

  280

  49

  8

  Horse-drawn vehicles

  22,113

  16,283

  7,327

  7,584

  6,552

  842

  190

  Totals

  24,375

  17,805

  8,241

  8,561

  7,364

  982

  215

  tion and consumption of Iron Ore and Pig Iron, and the production of Steel in the United Kingdom and the principal Foreign Countries in recent years, and the Imports and Exports of certain classes of Iron and Steel Manufactures (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 240, of Session 1903)."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Accidents caused by Motor-Cars, Horses, and Horse-drawn Vehicles.
  MR. SCOTT-MONTAGU (Hampshire,: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can now give the number of accidents caused by motor-cars and by horses and horse-drawn vehicles in the year ended 31st May last.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The figures for the Metropolitan Police District are given in the table below. It is to be noted that in the absence of information as to the total numbers of horses or of the various kinds of vehicles in use, there is no basis for a comparison between the figures. It is not practicable to give similar figures for the rest of the country outside the Metropolitan Police District.
  Total number of accidents known to the police to have been due to the under-mentioned causes within the Metropolitan Police District during the year ended the 31st May, 1904.

  Hyde Park Corner—Slippery Wood Pavement
  MR. H. C. RICHARDS: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will give directions that gravel or sand be placed upon the slippery wood pavement extending from the gateway of Constitution Hill across to the entrance of Hyde Park; and whether he is aware that up till 10 a.m. no such protection is given for drivers or riders crossing the wood pavement.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) The Westminster City Council are responsible for this road, and it would rest with them to provide gravel or sand as suggested.

  Disposal of Bronze Lions from British Museum.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will state what has become of a number of bronze lions which were along the line of railings in front of the British Museum, and which were removed to widen the footway.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) Twelve lions were removed to St. Paul's Cathedral with the concurrence of the Trustees of the British Museum; the remainder are at the Museum, in charge of the Trustees.

  Disposal of Colonnade from Burlington House.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will state what has become of the handsome stone colonnade (classical pillars, monoliths) formerly in front of Burlington House, Piccadilly, and removed by the Department of Works, and say why it is not re-erected in one of the Parks or elsewhere.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) The colonnade is lying in Battersea Park; the question of re-erecting it is now under the consideration of the First Commissioner.

  Outdoor Medical Belief in the Metropolis.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will take steps to have a report made by the inspector now investigating the arrangements for outdoor medical relief in the Metropolis on the number of unions, if any, in which medical relief is granted on loan in the first instance, and on the practice of requiring applicants for medical relief to attend before the Board or a committee, with a statement of how long such practice has been in force and its effects on the number of applications.
  (Answered by Mr. Waller Long.) I will take steps to give effect to this suggestion as far as may be practicable.

  Adulteration of Food—Recommendations of Royal Commission.
  SIR CUTHBERT QUILTER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in pursuance of their powers, the Board propose to take action on the lines recommended by the Royal Commission on Arsenical Poisoning in Part VIIIA. of their Report, by the appointment of a special expert officer, or otherwise, for securing better control over the purity of chemically prepared, preserved, or other foods liable to contain deleterious substances; and whether progress has been made in giving effect to the further recommendation of the Royal Commission, that the principle of officially prescribed food standards already enforced in the case of certain articles of diet should be applied to other foods and beverages.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I have not at present decided to appoint a special expert officer of the kind referred to. The consideration of the recommendations of the Royal Commission is being proceeded with, and in connection with it the proposal with regard to the appointment of such an officer will receive attention. Effect, however, could not be given to the recommendations as to food standards without legislation.

  Report of Boiler Committee.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary to

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  the Admiralty when the Final Report of the Boiler Committee will be in the hands of Members; and whether he can give the House any statement as to the coal consumption in the case of Belleville boilers as compared with that in the case of Babcock boilers or Yarrow boilers.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The Pinal Report of the Boiler Committee was received on the 2nd instant, and is now under consideration. It is hoped that it will shortly be in the hands of Members. The coal used per H.P. per hour on the trials conducted by the Boiler Committee was as follows:—

  Babcock and Wilcox

  1·8 lbs. to 2·1 lbs.

  Belleville

  1·8 lbs. to 2·1 lbs.

  Yarrow large tube

  1·9 lbs. to 2·2 lbs.

  By-laws under the Employment of Children Act.
  MR TENNANT: To ask the Secretary for Scotland how many sets of by-laws under the Employment of Children Act, 1903, have been sent to him for confirmation; what local authorities have sent these by-laws, and in how many, and what, cases the sanction of his Department has been given.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) Proposed by-laws have been received from the town councils of Ayr and Glasgow, the county council of Dumfries, and the school boards of Greenock, Ayr, Glasgow, Stirling, Paisley, Perth, Annan, Govan Parish, Gourock, Leith, Peebles, Crieff, Blantyre Parish, Ardrossan. The proposed by-laws have been or are being locally advertised, and are now under consideration in connection with objections submitted in the respective cases. No by-laws have as yet been sanctioned.

  New Scheme for Whitstable Charities.
  MR. SLACK: To ask the hon. Member for Tonbridge, as Parliamentary Charity Commissioner, whether, before sanctioning and sealing the new scheme for the Whitstable Charities, he will so amend it that the endowment originally provided for the payment of teachers' salaries shall continue to be paid to the local education authority as provided by Section 13 of The Education Act, 1902.
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  (Answered by Mr. Griffith Boscawen.) The Commissioners do not understand that any payment has been made to the local education authority from this Charity; and whether any such payment ought under any circumstances to be made is a matter not for the Commissioners, but for the Board of Education. In the circumstances the Commissioners have nothing to add to their Answer of 1st July.†

  Mr. J. Robinson's Farm at Ballinacross.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any application has been made to the Estates Commissioners to purchase the farm of Ballinacross from Mr. John Robinson, Sub-Sheriff of county Longford, who is willing to sell same for the benefit of the representatives of the evicted tenants, and with a view to their restoration thereto.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) No application has been made to the Commissioners for the sale of this farm.

  Sale of the O'Brien Estate
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland to state the present position of the negotiations for the sale of the O'Brien Estate at Corglass and Cornakelly; and whether, in view of the delay in completing this sale, the Estates Commissioners will apply to Judge Ross for a request to issue under the 7th Section of the Act of 1903.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I am informed by the registrar of the Land Judge's Court that the notice in Form 10 prescribed by the rules of 10th January, 1902, is about to be served. The solicitor having carriage of the sale is also acting for the tenants, and this would seem to afford a guarantee that no unnecessary delay will take place in bringing about a sale. The case will not be lost sight of by the Land Judge.

  Promotion of Sergeant Ryan—Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. SLOAN (Belfast, S.): To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that
  †See page 317.

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  Sergeant Ryan, of the Royal Irish Constabulary, in Belfast, was some time ago found in an ill-conducted house; if so, will he state whether his conduct on this occasion was reported to his superior officer and what punishment, if any, was inflicted; and will he explain on what grounds has Ryan been promoted to the rank of head constable.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The incident referred to in the first part of the Question occurred in January, 1896. Sergeant Ryan did not deny that he had entered the house, but stated he had done so with the object of endeavouring to trace stolen property. He was reported to be an excellent officer, and as there was no evidence to show that he entered the house for any purpose other than that stated by him, the Inspector-General considered that the necessities of the case would be sufficiently met by a caution against entering such a house in future. In July, 1900, he was permitted, on the recommendation of his officers, to compete for promotion to the rank of head constable. He was successful, and was promoted in October, 1900.

  Belfast Police—Alleged Preference given to Roman Catholics.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state why all the appointments made at Henry Street Police Barracks, Belfast, during the year 1902, and carrying with them extra pay, were given to Roman Catholics; and can he state the number of men stationed at this barrack, how many are Roman Catholics and how many are Protestants, including the district inspector who is in charge.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Two such appointments were made in the year 1902. Both men are Roman Catholics, but the appointments were not determined by considerations of religion. In one case the extra pay amounts to a shilling weekly, and the recipient lost a night-watch allowance of similar amount. There are fifty-two men at Henry Street Barrack, twenty-eight are Roman Catholics, and twenty-four Protestants. The district inspector is a Roman Catholic.

  Decorations at Roundstone—Action of Police.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that flags and banners were some time ago hung out of all the public-houses in Roundstone, county Galway; that the Reverend Father Glee-son sent a written complaint to Sir Antony M'Donnell against Sergeant Ryan an I Constable Laidley for explaining to certain publicans that it was illegal to hang flags from their licensed premises; and that the sergeant was severely reprimanded and the constable transferred because of performing this duty; and, if so, will he say whether an opportunity was given to Ryan and Laidley to refute the charges contained in Father Gleeson's letter; if not, will he lay a copy of the letter upon the Table.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The replies to the first two queries are in the affirmative. On inquiry it transpired that only one publican was informed that a display of flags was illegal. The occasion on which these emblems were displayed was the eve of the visit to Roundstone of the newly-appointed Archbishop of Tuam, the first visit after his appointment. The flags exhibited were not Party emblems of the character contemplated by the statute 6 and 7 Will. 4, cap. 38, sec. 9, and as it appeared that the constable had acted without reference to the district inspector or head constable, the Inspector-General considered that his interference was improper, and he so informed him. The sergeant was exonerated from blame. Constable Laidley's transfer had no connection with this incident. The Inspector-General considered he had shown distinct sectarian feeling while stationed at Roundstone, and the county inspector was of opinion that, in the interests of the public service, it was necessary to transfer him to another station. Explanations were furnished by both the sergeant and constable in respect of the matters alleged against them by the Reverend Mr. Gleeson.

  Cost of Conveying Militia Artillery from the North to Portsmouth.
  SIR JOHN COLOMB: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state approximately the estimated cost of conveyance

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  to and from Portsmouth of the Militia Artillery Corps from Lancashire, Durham, Northumberland, and various parts of Scotland for the purpose of mobilisation under the existing arrangements.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The estimated cost is as follows:—

  £

  Northumberland Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)

  1,150

  Lancashire Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)

  400

  The Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)

  1,650

  Fife Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)

  1,000

  Forfar and Kincardine Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)

  1,250

  Durham Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)

  1,150

  The South-East of Scotland Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia)

  1,000

  £7,600

  North of England Militia Artillery Training.
  SIR JOHN COLOMB: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Militia Artillery Corps, forming part of the war garrison of Portsmouth but belonging to Lancashire, Durham, Northumberland, and various parts of Scotland, have at their own local headquarters the means of training at guns and artillery appliances exactly corresponding to those they have to serve when mobilised at Portsmouth.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) Units of Militia Garrison Artillery are trained every third year at least at the fortresses to which they are allotted for mobilisation, and during other years at a work of defence armed with a modern armament. The cost of providing at the local headquarters appliances exactly corresponding to those the corps have to serve in a modern fortress, such as Portsmouth, would be prohibitive.

  Attendance of a Deputy Judge-Advocate at Courts-Martial in India.
  MR. H. D. GREENE: To ask the Secretary of State for War
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  whether any regulation has been recently adopted as to dispensing with or otherwise altering the attendance at Courts-Martial in India of a Deputy Judge-Advocate, and on what grounds, and whether such change was approved by the Government before it was made; and, if so, whether the presence of an independent official possessing special legal knowledge is no longer considered requisite to safeguard the interests of accused soldiers at Courts-Martial.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) No report on the subject has been received from the Government of India. I will make inquiries.

  Medal for Naval Service against Fenians in 1868.
  MR. MOON (St. Pancras, N.): To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the services of those who were detailed for naval service in Canada against the Fenians in 1868 have not been recognised by the reward of a medal.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) Medals were granted to those who were engaged in repelling the Fenian raids of 1866 and 1870, and in the Red River Expedition of 1870, but it was not considered desirable to grant the medal to men who served in the defence of the Dominion along the frontier in other years about that period, since their services practically amounted to policing the frontier, and they were not engaged in actual military operations.

  Import Duty on Magazines in Australia.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the announcement made by the Australian Commonwealth Government that from 19th August next all magazines and periodicals containing more than 15 per cent, of advertising matter will be liable to an import duty of 3d. per lb.; whether he is aware that the effect of this duty will be to exclude from a British Colony a number of British magazines and periodicals; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I have not yet seen the notification of the

  781
  Australian Government to which the hon. Member refers, but I will inquire whether such a notification has been issued and will draw the attention of the Commonwealth Government to the probable effect of the proposal to which the hon. Member refers. The matter, however, must be left to the discretion of that Government to take what action they think fit.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.
  Admiralty Contractors and the Fair Wages Resolution—Case of Messrs. Lysaght, of Bristol.
  MR. CHAELES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether Messrs. Lysaght, of Bristol, are contractors for the Admiralty; and, if so, whether it has been brought to his notice that Messrs. Lysaght are discharging men from their employment on account of their membership of a trade union, in contravention of the Fair Wages Resolution of the House of Commons, which has been adopted by all Government Departments; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): The Answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative. The Fair Wages Resolution of the House of Commons does not appear to lay down any guidance for dealing with cases of this character, unless it can be shown that the firm are paying less than the current rate of wages.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: Does the Secretary to the Admiralty intend the House to understand that the question of the preferential employment of non-unionists as against unionists is net raised by the Resolution?
  MR. PRETYMAN: I do not think there is anything regarding that in the Fair Wages Resolution.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: Will the hon. Member acquaint himself with the
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  circulars issued by the Treasury on the subject?

  Machine Guns in the Regular Army.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state the number of Maxims, Nordenfelt, and Gardner machine guns, respectively, in use in the Regular Army; the number required to complete the armament; the number of each ordered for the present financial year, and where the orders have been placed; and also the cost of manufacture at Enfield Small Arms Factory, and the price paid to private firms for each class of gun.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT,): There are in use in the Regular Army 990 Maxims, 33 Nordenfelts and 90 Gardner machine guns and a reserve of 25 per cent is held. The number of guns required to complete the armament is 110 Maxim guns; 81 are available for issue in store and 80 are still due on last year's orders. 100 Maxim guns have been ordered this year, one-half being placed with the Ordnance Factories and one-half with Messrs. Vickers, Maxim and Company. The only private firm manufacturing Maxim guns is Vickers, Maxim and Company, whose invention the gun is, and when arrangements were made with them for manufacture by them and the Ordnance Factories an undertaking was given not to divulge the price paid.

  War Office Contracts—Messrs. Lysaght and the Fair Wages Resolution.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether Messrs. Lysaght, of Bristol, are contractors for the War Office; and, if so, whether it has been brought to his notice that Messrs. Lysaght are discharging men from their employment on account of their membership of a trade union, in contravention of the Fair Wages Resolution of the House of Commons, which has been adopted by all Government Departments; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The statements of fact contained in the hon.

  783
  Member's Question, as to which I have no knowledge, do not indicate any contravention of the Fair Wages Resolution, which obliges this firm, and any firm employed under a Government contract, to pay the rate of wages generally accepted as current for similar work in the same district.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: Is it a fact that Messrs. Lysaght are doing work for the War Office, and, if so, will the War Office not consider themselves bound to interfere in a case where preference is shown to non-unionists as against unionists.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: We do employ Messrs. Lysaght, but under the Fair Wages Resolution there is no obligation on us to compel them to employ any particular persons, unionist or non-unionist.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: The hon. Gentleman has said that even if the facts are as set forth, the War Office would have no right to interfere.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: No, I did not say that.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: Will the hon. Gentleman acquaint himself with the evidence taken before the Fair Wages Committee, and the debates in which a positive pledge was given on this subject?
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: I will.
  MR. BROADHURST: Will the hon. Gentleman also make himself acquainted with the facts as to whether men are being discharged or not.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: I will make inquiries, but in any case I am not clear that we have any power.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Is it not the case that in August, 1893, the then Secretary of the Treasury and myself, speaking on behalf of the Government—
  MR. SPEAKER: That is a Question of which, I think, notice should be given.

  Retired Volunteers.
  MR. CHARLES ALLEN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether there is any available record of the number of retired Volunteers under thirty years of age who, during their term of service, were efficient for not less than three years.
  MR. BROMLEY DAVENPORT: The Answer is in the negative.

  Expenditure on Rifle Ranges.
  MR. TILLETT: I beg to ask th.3 Secretary of State for War if he will say how much of the £40,000 set aside in 1899 for rifle ranges has been actually appropriated; where such new ranges have been constructed; and whether they are open or screened.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTBR,: The £40,000 originally allotted from the Military Works Loan, 1899, for Volunteer ranges was subsequently increased to £170,000. It has been all appropriated as shown in the Return which I have the pleasure of handing to the hon. Member. The money has been utilised in assisting Volunteers in providing range accommodation suitable for the ·303 rifle, either by extending or improving existing ranges or constructing new ones. The ranges for which grants have been made are all open ranges except five, viz., Oxford, Lincoln, Norton (Stockton-on-Tees), Kirkland (Fife), and Clifton, which are screened.

  South African Constabulary.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the force suggested by the Government for the new South African Constabulary in 1901 was 10,000 men, whether he can say when the intention was formed that the force should consist of only 6,000, and when the strength was reduced to 5,000; whether he can state up to what date he possesses the Return of actual strength, and if he can give the figure of the actual strength at the date of the last Return; what was the original estimate of cost for 10,000 constabulary; and what is the expenditure contributed by the Transvaal towards the South African Constabulary in the present year.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): It was decided to constitute such a force towards the end of 1900. Lord Roberts considered that the force should be 10,000, as the extra number would obviate the need of more Regular troops for the work then required, but from the beginning Lord Milner maintained that 6,000 would be sufficient for police purposes when the war was over, and that fewer would be required after a time. The force was reduced to 5,000 in the course of the present April. The last Return of strength is dated 1st June and gives the actual strength as 4,770. The original estimate was £250 per man, or a total cost of £2,500,000 per annum. The cost of the constabulary is provided in the Inter-colonial Budget and not directly on the Transvaal Estimates. Towards the deficit on the Inter-colonial Budget for the year ended 30th June the Transvaal is contributing a sum of £767,000. In general explanation, I would refer the right hon. Member to pages 30 and 51 of Blue-book, Cd. 2102.

  Sunday Labour in Transvaal Mines.
  MR. SLACK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that one of the conditions of the agreement under which Chinese labourers are being introduced into the Transvaal provides that Sunday labour shall be optional, and to the fact that a conference has been summoned by the Johannesburg Free Church Council (which defended the introduction of Chinese labour) to protest against this condition, he proposes to take any, and, if so, what action in the matter.
  MR. LYTTELTON: The contract provides that Sundays shall be holidays and that labourers are not bound to work on that day. Under the Sunday Labour Law, no ordinary mining work is done on Sundays, as I have been informed, but only work which is absolutely necessary, such as pumping, repairs, etc. I have not had the conference referred to brought to my notice, but I will make inquiry on the subject.
  MR. MARKHAM: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the stamps, etc., are running every day and that the mining goes on on Sundays just the same as on ordinary days?
  MR LOUGH: Why is it necessary to do repairs and pumping on Sundays?
  MR. WHITLEY: Are not these labourers paid on the basis of thirty days per month?
  MR. LYTTELTON: Of thirty working days per month.

  Boer Repatriation—Expenditure.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS (Carnarvonshire,): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has now ascertained from Lord Milner whether he is willing to furnish a detailed statement of the moneys expended in repatriation of the Boers after the war, and in compensation for losses sustained by them in or in consequence of the war, and stating the name and address of every person who received £100 or upwards of such moneys, and on what account the same was received.
  MR. LYTTELTON:I have referred the hon. Member's request to Lord Milner, and he informs me that the suggested limitation of the Return to recipients of £100 and upwards would not materially affect the reasons for which I stated that such a Return could not conveniently be prepared, as involving an unjustifiable expenditure of time and money.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable anxiety in South Africa as to whether the money has been properly expended, and is it not desirable to allay that feeling whatever the expense?
  MR. LYTTELTONwas understood to reply that wherever there was money to be distributed there was always anxiety.
  MR. MARKHAM: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a Return showing the names of the persons whose farms were

  787
  sold during the time of the war while they were fighting for their country.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: I shall raise the question on the Colonial Vote.

  Repatriation Loan.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies how much of the £5,800,000 spent out of the Guaranteed Loan for repatriation purposes under Head III. was spent on cost of administration.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I am not able to state the amount spent on administration until I receive Lord Milner's final report. I would refer the hon. Member to Sir Arthur Lawley's observations on the point at page 64 of Cd. 1895.

  The Somali Mullah.
  MR. LAMBERT (Devonshire,): I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present position of the Somali Mullah, stating the estimated number of his followers, and the amount of rifles and ammunition in his possession.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOE FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): We have no definite information as to the present position of the Mullah or strength of his following, and the report that he has returned to the Nogal Valley is not confirmed.

  Administration of Somaliland.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many officers have been sent out in the last three months upon special service to Somaliland; whether any military operations are taking place in that country, and what force it will be necessary to maintain in the Protectorate in order to preserve peace; whether he can state what number of officers will be required in future to administer the Government there.
  EARL PERCY: No special service officers have been sent out since the termination of the war, and no military operations are now taking place. Two
  788
  Indian regiments and two companies of mounted infantry will remain as a temporary garrison pending the reorganisation of the local forces. The normal European staff of the Protectorate consists of eleven civil and ten military officers.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: What was the date of the termination of the war?
  EARL PERCYsaid he could not give the exact date when military operations were supposed to have terminated. His Answer referred to the period when the Foreign Office took over the control.

  Somaliland Protectorate Boundaries and Administration.
  MR. BRYCE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government contemplate any immediate demarcation of the area of the Protectorate in Somaliland which, by the Order in Council just made by His Majesty, has been placed in charge of a Commissioner; whether this Commissioner is to act under the direction of the Foreign Office, or, if not, under the direction of what Department or official, and whether he is to be in any way instructed either from Aden or from Bombay; and whether he can give the House any information as to the recent movements and present position of the Mullah.
  EARL PERCY: The Answer to the first paragraph is in the negative; the Commissioner is to act under the direction of the Foreign Office. As regards the last paragraph, I must refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply which I have given to-day to the hon. Member for South Molton.

  Sugar Convention Expenditure.
  MR. SAMUEL YOUNG: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give the total sum and the chief details of the expenditure during the last financial year on or in connection with the Sugar Convention and the Permanent Committee at Brussels from money voted by Parliament.
  EARL PERCY: The total expenditure was about £1,200. The principal items other than expenses for maintenance and travelling are: £700 for the remuneration of the British Delegate and of the Assistant Delegate, and £140 for the British share of the expenses of the Permanent Committee.

  Macedonia—European Officers of Gendarmerie.
  MR. CHARLES ALLEN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government has acquiesced in Hilmi Pacha's circular limiting the duties of the European officers of gendarmerie in Macedonia to technical instruction of their men, and confining the right to receive complaints from the inhabitants to the civil assessors.
  EARL PERCY: In an interview with Sir N. O'Conor, the Grand Vizier stated that he was not aware that any instructions had been sent to the Inspector-General in the sense of the alleged circular alluded to by the hon. Member, and the reports of Colonel Fairholme indicate that the British officers are receiving the cordial co-operation of the Turkish authorities.

  Proof Spirit in Sweets imported from the Continent—Restriction of Sale.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the importation into this country by German and other Continental manufacturers of quantities of sweets, particularly chocolates, containing a large percentage of proof spirit; and whether, having regard to the danger of the sale of such articles to children, the Board of Inland Revenue propose to take steps to check such sale: and whether he will state under what conditions, if any, such articles are allowed to be sold without a licence.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,: The hon. Member was good enough to draw my attention to this matter by a private letter. I have been in communication with the Board of Inland Revenue on the subject.
  790
  The only thing that they can do is to insist that goods containing an appreciable percentage of spirit should not be sold by any person not holding a spirit retail licence, and they are issuing warnings to that effect in such cases as appear to them to require it.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: May I ask whether a proportionate duty is levied on these goods?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I think so.

  Alcohol for Manufacturing Purposes.
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has yet formulated any experimental scheme for the production and sale of alcohol for manufacturing and industrial purposes; whether he is aware that alcohol can be manufactured at fourpence a gallon from such materials as bad potatoes and mildewed grain; whether his attention has been drawn to the extent of German trade in this respect; and whether he intends to allow such spirits to be blended in bonded warehouses and sold as pure whiskey.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I am not quite clear as to what the hon. Member refers. I would, however, refer him to Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1902. I may at the same time mention that I am considering whether it would be advisable to alter the present law which prohibits the sale of methylated spirit by retailers in quantities of more than one gallon. As regards the cost of certain forms of alcohol, and its composition, and the extent of the German trade in such forms of alcohol, I have seen statements to the effect (more or less) of those made by the hon. Member, but I have no official information on the subject. And, with reference to his last Question, I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member on Wednesday the 22nd June† to a somewhat similar Question.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman get information from the Customs officials as to the extent of the German trade?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think I can. They cannot get information as to the sources from which the spirit is obtained. When spirit is imported as silent spirit it is absolutely impossible by any analysis to say how it has been made. It is pure spirit and nothing but that.
  MR. THOMAS-O'DONNELL: What is silent spirit?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Absolutely pure spirit.
  MAJOR JAMESON: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman ascertain the quantity of the spirit imported from Germany.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, I could obtain that, but I could not say how it was made, whether from potatoes or mildewed grain. I have no means of arriving at the sources from which it is manufactured.
  MR. KILBRIDE: Have you any information as to the amount of such spirit blended in the bonded warehouses and sold as whiskey?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise out of the Answer.

  Mails in County Fermanagh.
  MR. EDWARD MITCHELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that since May last mid-day mail bags from Belleek, Irvinestown, Billinamallard, and other places, have been abolished, while previous to this letters could be posted early in the day and delivered in Enniskillen at 2 o'clock p.m.; that, under the present conditions, letters posted in any of the places mentioned have necessarily to go viâ Omagh, and take a long time in delivery; and, if so, will he consider the advisabilty of improving the present postal system in the places referred to.
  THE POSTMASTER - GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): I will have inquiry made on the subject, and will acquaint the hon. Member with the result.

  Government Education Grant—Method of Distribution.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is now in a position to make a statement relative to the representations which have been made to him concerning the hardship to poorer schools, and especially to country schools, likely to arise under the method of distributing Government grants to elementary schools proposed under Article 31* of the Education Code for 1904–5, and relative also to the difficulties in registration which that proposed distribution will involve.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): The total result of the method of distributing grants proposed in the Code would not involve a loss to local education authorities, taking the country as a whole; but it appears that some of the rural counties and some of the boroughs would incur a small, but an appreciable loss. I am of opinion that very slight improvement of attendance generally, and some better arangement as to the attendance of children under the by-laws relating to partial exemption, would cancel the losses which at present would arise in certain areas if the proposed change were carried into effect. But in view of the fact that under existing circumstances the change cannot be introduced without involving these losses the Board will revert to the system hitherto in force; at the same time they hope that in another year or two the methods proposed in the Code for 1904 may be brought into use without risk of hardship to any local education authority, rural or urban.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Will the hon. Baronet issue a Minute setting up the arrangement to which it is proposed to revert.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: Certainly.

  Irish Agricultural Organisation Society.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Department of Agriculture exercise any

  793
  supervision over the annual sums granted to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society; and by what power and authority are such sums granted, seeing that this society, aided by public money, is in direct competition with other similar societies dealing in Irish agricultural produce.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The sums paid to the society have been in respect of the remuneration and expenses of its officials whom the Department has employed from time to time instead of appointing additional officers on its staff. No payments have been made by way of grant. The Act of 1899 authorises the Department to apply its funds, with the concurrence of the Agricultural Board, for the purposes of promoting agricultural and other rural industries.
  MR. FLYNN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this society is in direct competition with private enterprise all over Ireland?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I do not know if that is an accurate description, and even if it were I think the action of the society is one we ought to view with pleasure. The duty of the Department is to spend money for the promotion of agriculture, and, as I have said, it has simply employed officials of the society instead of increasing its own staff.

  Land Purchase—The Macgillycuddy's Estate, County Kerry.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutentant of Ireland whether the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been directed to the sale of The Macgillycuddy's Estate, county Kerry, in the Land Judge's Court; whether they are aware that the holding of Mr. Daniel Shea, an evicted tenant who has made application to the Commissioners already, is situated at Cleeny on this estate, and held by the Earl of Kenmare as a middleman under The Macgillycuddy; and whether the Estates Commissioners have taken any, and, if any, what, steps to safeguard the interests of the evicted tenant.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Proceedings for sale of a portion of this estate were
  794
  recently pending in the Land Judge's Court. On the application of the owner, however, proceedings were stayed, and an order was made enabling him to negotiate for a sale of the whole of the property to the Estates Commissioners. The application received from the evicted tenant will be duly considered.
  MR. MURPHY: Can we rely on the right hon. Gentleman to see that this evicted tenant is reinstated?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have every confidence that the Commissioners will do their duty.

  American Duties on Irish Cured Fish.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any steps have been taken by the Irish Government with a view to induce the American Government to withdraw the prohibitory tariff proposed to be imposed on Irish cured fish imported into that country.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Irish Government communicated with the Foreign Office on the subject. My noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs states that the alteration in the method of assessing the duty is due to a ruling by the Board of General Appraisers. Against this ruling there is a right of appeal to the Circuit Court of the district, and, under certain circumstances, a further appeal to the Supreme Court It would appear that advantage has already been taken of this right of appeal, and my noble friend does not consider that any useful purpose would be served by making representations to the United States Government at the present stage. But the matter will be closely watched and representations made when they are likely to have good results.
  MR. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this increased taxation is practically killing the Irish mackerel fishing industry?

  Blennerhassett's Estate, Kerry—Case of Daniel Murphy.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement in his farm from Daniel Murphy, Dromin, Milltown, county Kerry; whether he is aware that the greater part of the estate (A. Blennerhassett's Estate) on which the farm is situated is already purchased; that the present holder of the farm (Mr. Wharton) has no judicial title; and, if so, whether steps will be taken, under the provisions of the Land Act, 1903, to have Mr. Murphy reinstated.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The greater part of this property was sold some time ago to the occupiers under previous Land Purchase Acts. No application has been received by the Estates Commissioners in respect of the sale of the remainder, nor have they received any application on behalf of the reinstatement of Daniel Murphy.

  Fishing Eights at Ballynahinch.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the water bailiffs at Ballynahinch, county Down, continually interfere with the rights of individuals fishing either with rod or line; and will he give instructions for their interference to cease.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There have, I believe, been several cases of interference by bailiffs with persons fishing legally with rod and line at this place. Further inquiries are being made in the matter by the new Department, the result of which I will communicate to my hon. friend.

  Game Bights on the Clanricarde Estate, County Galway.
  MR. KOCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in August or September, 1902, the Clanricarde tenants at Derrygoolan, county Galway, refused to allow strangers or poachers to trespass on their lands in pursuit of game, those tenants being in possession of their holdings for many years as tenants from year to year, and
  796
  consequently the owners of the game rights on their farms; that on the 12th August, 1903, the same tenants again refused to allow strangers or poachers to shoot over their lands, although those outsiders were accompanied by police as a protection force; and whether, in view of the fact that no action has been taken since autumn, 1902, either by the landlord, Lord Clanricarde, or anybody else, to contest the tenants' right to the game on their holdings, a police protection force will be refused to any party endeavouring to shoot over these lands, to whom the tenants have refused permission.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am not informed of the particulars of events which the hon. Member states took place in 1902–1903. The attendance of police on such occasions is solely to prevent serious breaches of the peace, and is not to prevent any person entitled to a legal right from asserting it in a lawful manner. If the tenants are the aggressors and remove the so-called strangers, the latter can proceed civilly or criminally for assault. If the so-called strangers are the aggressors, then the tenants can proceed civilly before the County Court or before the magistrates for trespass in pursuit of game, and thus have the legal rights of the respective parties determined in a Court of Law. I cannot and ought not to pronounce an opinion as to the rights of the respective parties, being, as I am, in ignorance of the nature of the contract of tenancy between the landlords and tenants.
  MR. KILBRIDE: Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that these tenants are tenants from year to year and were so previously to the passing of the Land Act of 1881?
  MR. WYNDHAM: No.
  MR. KILBRIDE: Will you inquire from the police if the statements in my Question are correct, and whether, also an offer of 1s. per head has been made to the tenants for every bird killed?
  In reply to Mr. ROCHE,
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the police would only go to the place if there

  797
  was reason to believe that there might be a breach of the peace.
  MR. KILBRIDE: What does the right hon. Gentleman think would be a lawful and legitimate protest under these circumstances?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  Larne Urban Council.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a memorial from the Urban Council of Lame (county Antrim) praying for an increase in the number of councillors; and, if so, will he state what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The district council has made application to the county council for an increase in the number of urban councillors. It is for the county council to consider the application and, should it be of opinion that a prima facie case is made out, to cause an inquiry to be made in pursuance of Article 26 of the Application of Enactments Order.

  Belfast Corporation—Outbreaks of Infectious Disease.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Works Committee of the Belfast Corporation, held on 29th June, declaring that, owing to the serious and periodical outbreaks of infectious diseases in the City of Belfast, the attention of the Public Health Department be called to the present system of dumping the refuse, which must contain germs of disease, on ground intended for building purposes; and whether, seeing that the system has been encouraged rather than repressed by the Belfast Corporation, he will, in the interests of the health of the community, cause inquiries to be made by the Local Government Board into this practice with a view to its discontinuance.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The resolution of the Works Committee is under the consideration of the Corporation. As already stated, the Local Government Board has received no complaints in the matter.
  798
  The Board's Medical Inspector will, however, make inquiries.

  Tobacco Growing in Ireland.
  MR. DAVID MORGAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can furnish particulars as to the arrangements made for the experimental growing of tobacco in Ireland; and if such experimental growing will be carried on in different parts of Ireland, so that reliable trials may be made on a fairly large area of ground, in four or five different localities, thus enabling an opinion to be formed as to the results in different districts.
  MR. WYNDHAM: In 1900, 1901, and 1902 experiments under the supervision of the Department were undertaken at a number of selected centres in Ireland, the results of which have satisfied the Department that the tobacco plant can be successfully cultivated in that country. In order, however, to determine the possible commercial value to the country of tobacco cultivation, arrangements were made for the growing of the crop on about twenty acres in the vicinity of Navan during the present year. Until the Department has satisfied itself with respect to the actual financial result, it will not be in a position to consider the question of the initiation of similar experiments elsewhere.
  MR. FLAVIN: Has it been brought to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman that tobacco was successfully grown in Tralee. Why have not the Department experimented in more than one county?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I think my Answer covers that ground.

  Rathmines Commissioners and the Dublin County Council.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board have sought the counsel and advice of the Law Officers of the Crown to guide them in their decision on the appeal of the Rathmines Commissioners against the decision of the Dublin County Council.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No, Sir. I stated in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for South Dublin on the 20th June, † that the Board has authority to obtain the opinion of counsel in important cases, and that should it become necessary to consult the Law Officers of the Crown in the present case the Attorney-General will alone advise.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Why not the Solicitor-General? Why is the exception made in this case?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Trawling in Muir Bay.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether it has come to the knowledge of the Fisheries Branch of the Department of Technical and Agricultural Instruction that eight trawling boats, whose decks have been seen strewn several inches deep with fish spawn, have been constantly operating on Sundays and week days for the past month across the entrance to Muir Bay, to the loss and injury to the means of livelihood of the local fishermen; has the "Granuaile" yet made the long-promised surprise visit to the neighbourhood of Muir Bay; and what steps, if any, does the Government propose to take, with the view of securing the fishermen from deprivation of their livelihood by the illegal practice of trawling.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The waters in question are closed to trawling inside denned limits, which are locally well known; but the Department has no information that trawling has been carried out within the prohibited area. It is giving the matter close attention, however, and if an infraction of the law is brought to notice it will institute proceedings. It was only on the 25th June that a promise was given that the "Granuaile" would visit the waters. The element of surprise will disappear if the hon. Member presses me to give indications of the visit's probable date.

  Blacklion Dispensary, Enniskillen Union.
  MR. JORDAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieu-
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxvi., 491.
  800
  tenant of Ireland if his attention has been drawn to the report of Dr. M'Carthy, made to the Local Government Board on the 30th May last, in reference to the condition of the Blacklion Dispensary in the Enniskillen Union, and to his statements that the rooms are filled with accumulations of old bottles and rubbish, and that vigorous action is needed to remedy this state of affairs, and as to the unsuitability of the rooms used for the dispensary for children and delicate and elderly patients; and, if so, will he take steps to compel the improvement of these premises, or insist on the guardians providing another house instead of that now occupied by the dispensary.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The attention of the guardians has been directed to this report, and the Board has no reason to doubt they will take suitable action to remedy the condition of things complained of.

  Ballinasloe Union Medical Officer.
  MR. ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds the Local Government Board has refused to sanction the increase of £10 a year to £130 in the salary of Dr. Collins, the Protestant Medical Officer of Ballinasloe Union; whether he is aware that all the Catholic guardians are in favour of the proposed increase; and whether the Local Government Board, although withholding its sanction of this increase to an experienced Poor Law officer, has sanctioned initial salaries of larger amount for medical officers without Poor Law experience.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Board has no knowledge of the religious persuasions of Dr. Collins and the guardians. The Board refused to sanction the proposed increase of salary, because of the small amount of work recorded as having been performed in Dr. Collins' district, and in view of the fact that his salary was increased to its present amount so recently as 1902. The Board, however, expressed its willingness to consider any reasonable scale of salary which might be formulated by the guardians, and made applicable to the entire medical staff of the union.

  801
  Every case is considered on its merits, and higher initial salaries have only been allowed where they were warranted by circumstances.
  MR. ROCHE: Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the Local Government Board that Dr. Collins is a medical officer, and that the increase of the salary has been voted by Catholic guardians.
  MR. FLAVIN: How would the right hon. Gentleman like to have to live on 1130 a year?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Irish Agricultural Department—Catholic Clerks of the Veterinary Branch.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state how many communications (giving dates) were received at the Merrion Street offices of the Agricultural Department, from the Catholic clerks of the veterinary branch since 1st April, 1900, in reference to their position; how many of these communications were registered as official documents, and on what dates were they respectively registered; and on what dates respectively were these communications replied to.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Several communications have been received by the Department from temporary clerks formerly employed in the veterinary branch, and transferred to the new Department. Their religions are unknown to the Department. The communications were duly registered as official documents, and were duly answered. I have already replied to numerous Questions addressed to me respecting the position of these clerks. It would be subversive of official discipline, and opposed to precedent, to enter into details of the character suggested by the hon. Member, and I must decline, in the circumstances, to give the information he desires.
  MR. DELANY: Why is this disability imposed by the Department?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member has no right to say any disability is imposed.
  MR. DELANY: I am only suggesting what I am in a position to prove?

  Labourers (Ireland) Act—Cost of Registration of Title.
  MR. O'SHEE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, in the case of lands acquired in fee under the Labourers (Ireland) Act, the Local Government Board issued a circular or letter to rural sanitary authorities, calling their attention to the desirability of having the title to the plots registered under the Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Act, 1891; and whether, seeing that the average cost of registering the title to each plot is between £5 and £6, he will consider legislation with a view to providing for free registration of the title to these plots as of holdings purchased under the Land Purchase Acts.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have ascertained that no circular of the character mentioned has been issued by the Local Government Board, the Land Commission, or the Registrar of Titles. The maximum fees payable in the Registry of Titles in respect of any such registration as that referred to amount to 13s. only.

  The Anglo-French Convention.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury when it is proposed to exchange the ratifications of the Convention between England and France of 8th April, 1904, relative to Newfoundland, the Gambia, the Isles de Los, the Niger, and Lake Chad; in case the Convention should not be ratified, will the stipulations it contains in Articles IV. to VIII. as to the Gambia, the Isles de Los, the Niger, and I Lake Chad becomes inoperative as well as the stipulations in Articles I. to III. as to Newfoundland; and have any steps been, or are any being, taken to carry out the Articles IV. to VIII.
  The following Questions also appeared on the Paper—
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury are the two Declarations, one respecting Egypt and Morocco and the other concerning Siam,

  803
  Madagascar, and the New Hebrides, essential parts of the Agreement with France represented by those two Declarations and by the Convention of 8th April, 1904, relating to Newfoundland, the Gambia, and the Niger; and is it understood between His Majesty's Government and the French Government that the two Declarations will retain their effect and be carried into execution even in case the Convention fails to be ratified.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, have the Government of Newfoundland made any representation to His Majesty's Government or raised any difficulties affecting the rights conceded to the French under Article II. of the Anglo-French Convention of 8th April, 1904, in respect of Newfoundland local regulations as to bait, fishing, or access to ports on the so-called French shore, or in respect of the policing of the fishing; and was any agreement come to by His Majesty's Government with the Government of Newfoundland on these points before the Convention was signed.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: Perhaps my hon. friend will be good enough to postpone, say for ten days, any Question upon this subject. I do not think it would be in the public interest that I should at this moment give a reply by way of Question and Answer across the floor of the House.
  ME, GIBSON BOWLES: Does that refer to all my Questions?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes; they all relate, more or less directly, to the Anglo-French Agreement, and I am inclined to think that it would be desirable, if my hon. friend sees no objection, to defer them for the time I have suggested.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESassented to the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, but added that, in view of the extreme gravity of the situation that might arise, he would put the Questions down again a fortnight hence.

  Labourers (Ireland) Act Amendment Bill.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury what course the Government intend to take with reference to the Irish Labourers Bill; and whether they have considered the desirability of referring the Bill to one of the Grand Committees.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I see no objection to referring the Irish Labourers Bill to one of the Grand Committees in the present condition of public business.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman adopt that course.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes Sir, I will?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: To which Committee will it be sent?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid I cannot answer that, nor is it necessary I should do so at the present moment, but the information will be forthcoming when the Motion is made.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Until the Aliens Bill is disposed of, it is undesirable to send this Bill to the Grand Committee on Law.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Of course, the condition of business in the Grand Committees must be one of the governing considerations in determining to which Committee the Bill should be sent.

  Budget Proposals affecting Stripped Tobacco.
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the disorganisation of the tobacco trade and almost complete cessation of dealings in stripped tobacco, as shown by monthly circulars, by reason of proposed fiscal changes, he can expedite the resumption of the debate on the Budget proposals affecting tobacco.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am as well aware as my hon. friend of the inconveniences which have resulted from the postponement of the Budget. I hope to

  805
  take it on the first complete Parliamentary day on which we do not take the present stage of the Licensing Bill.

  Committee of National Defence.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury in what capacity and for what reason did Lord Curzon attend and take part in the proceedings of the Committee of the Cabinet for National Defence; and whether there is any, and, if so, what, precedent for a gentleman without special naval and military experience, who is not a member of the Cabinet, taking part in the proceedings of a Committee of the Cabinet or of the Cabinet as a whole.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Committee of Defence have the right, and I think a most valuable right, to summon to their councils anybody whom they think will assist them in their deliberations.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Did Lord Curzon attend as Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No.

  Passive Resisters.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will hold an inquiry by Royal Commission or otherwise into the grievances of the 22,000 ratepayers who have refused to pay rates under the Education Acts of 1902 and 1903; and, if not, will he say what course he intends adopting to remove the grievances of those who object conscientiously to the provisions of these Acts.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have never been able to understand that there were any grievances.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: It is well known that there are grievances, so I press for a further reply.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is not known to me.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: May I ask what action will be taken with respect to the 22,000 ratepayers who have refused to pay the rates—putting aside the ques-
  806
  tion whether or not they have a grievance.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I suppose that rests with the rating authorities.

  The Operations in Tibet.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government has received any information this morning with reference to the operations in Tibet.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Perhaps my hon. friend will put down a Question to my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for India, who is not now in his place.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: But is there not important news to-day which the House should have?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that to ask me, without notice, at five minutes to 3 o'clock, and in the absence of my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for India, to give the House an account of events in Tibet, is a bit unreasonable. If I had had the smallest notice that such a Question was going to be asked I should have brought down the necessary documents.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I thought it was not unusual, except in matters involving complicated negotiations, to ask a Question without notice on incidents occurring from day to day.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I did not bring down the telegram, but if I had been told, even ten minutes ago, that a Question was going to be asked, I would have sent for it. But it so happens that a right hon. friend of mine has got it, and I see no reason why I should not read it to the House. But of course I could not be expected to bring it down, and I think that to repeat from memory a telegram of such a character would be setting a very evil precedent. The telegram is as follows—
  "Young husband reports that to-day he sent two messengers to Tibetans that signal gun would be fired at 12 o'clock, and that if fort was not surrendered firing would commence at

  807
  12.30. The delegates—Tongsa Penlop and Ta Lama—women and children were warned to leave fort. No notice was taken by Tibetans there, and at 12.38 firing on the fort commenced."

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman what Votes will be taken to-morrow and Thursday in next week, as well as the business for Friday.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Irish Estimates will be taken to-morrow, the Votes being those for the Land Commission, the Board of Works, and the Chief Secretary's salary. Under any circumstances the Chief Secretary's salary will be the first Order at the evening sitting. In response to the earnest request made to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Somerset, Friday will not be an allotted day to the Licensing Bill, and I therefore propose to take the Irish Land Bill and the reference to a Grand Committee of the Irish Labourers Bill.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: I presume the reference of the Labourers Bill will be the first Order?
MR A. J. BALFOUR: There is probably a good deal-to be said in favour of that.
MR. WILLIAM MOORE: As the Labourers Bill is likely to be bitterly opposed by hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, will the right hon. Gentleman put that second Order.
MR. A. J. BALFOURwas understood to express a hope that the opposition would not be of undue length.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: As to the Cunard agreement?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not yet able to make any statement as to the debate on the Cunard agreement.

ACCESS TO AND FROM THE HOUSE.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he desired to draw the attention of the Speaker to Sessional Order
808
No. 11, and to ask him to interpret and clearly define the meaning of it.
MR. SPEAKER: I am not called upon to give interpretations of the Sessional Orders unless an occasion arises. The hon. Member must first show that he is raising some question of privilege or Order.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he was raising a question of privilege on Sessional Order No. 11. That Order was as follows—
"Ordered, that the Commissioners of the Police of the Metropolis do take care that, during the session of Parliament, the passages through the streets leading to this House be kept free and open, and that no obstruction be permitted to hinder the passage of Members to and from this House"
He was proceeding from that House to his home on 12th May, and on the near side of the road in Regent-street the roadway was entirely obstructed by a hose, making it impossible for him to proceed on the near side of the road without either going over the hose or waiting until the obstruction was removed. He thereupon drove on the off side of the road, and as soon as possible returned to the near side. When he stated the case to the magistrate as a question of privilege, the magistrate dismissed the question of the Sessional Order, saying, "We all know what that means." He desired to know whether hon. Members were allowed to exercise that privilege conferred by the Sessional Order, and to what distance the privilege extended from the Houses of Parliament. This was the first time he had ever been fined; he would have waited until the obstruction was removed rather than go on the wrong side of the road, if he had not believed that he was within his rights and could have free access to and from the House. He claimed that privilege as a Member of that House and as a law-abiding citizen.
MR. SPEAKER: I think the House will agree with me that it would have been better, perhaps, if the hon. Member had kept on the right side of the road. I do not think the House will expect me to leave this to them as a question of privilege; it seems to be an ordinary police case. Wherever the line is to be

809
drawn under this Standing Order, it does not extend to an indefinite distance from the Houses of Parliament—there must be some limits to it—and I think that, in the ordinary sense of the words, an hon. Member driving up Regent Street about an hour after the House had risen could scarcely expect to come within the operation of the Order.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he had not, perhaps, made himself clear. Mr. Speaker said that he ought to have waited or gone on the right side of the road; but he could not because it was obstructed.
MR. SPEAKER: I only referred to what the hon. Member had said, that, finding he could not keep on the right side he went on the wrong side, relying on this Order. I said that I thought it would have been better if he had kept to the right side instead of relying upon the Order.

LICENSING BILL [1ST ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Clause 1:—
Amendment again proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert the words 'except in county boroughs.' "—Sir James Woodhouse.
Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE: I have to ask leave to withdraw this Amendment in view of the promise of the Solicitor-General to consider this question.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIR ROBERT REIDmoved an Amendment with the object of allowing the magistrates to take into consideration not one isolated reason for non-renewal of a licence, but a combination of reasons, as they had hitherto done. He said it was desirable
810
to retain unimpaired the elasticity of discretion which the magistrates now possessed, and he wanted to insure that in future they should be able to take into consideration not one isolated reason for non-renewal but a combination of reasons. Obviously it weakened the power of the magistrates to insist on the maintenance of good order to split their discretion up into water-tight compartments.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert the words' or any of the before-mentioned grounds in combination with any other ground.'"—(Sir Robert Reid.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON,)said the Government could not accept the Amendment. It would be very unfair to the licence-holder to tell him that his licence was being taken away partly on grounds for which he ought to get compensation and partly on grounds for which he ought not to get compensation, and that, therefore, he would get no compensation. It was impossible under the scheme of the Bill that such an arrangement could be set up.
MR. WHITLEYsuggested that the Amendment might be modified so that no grounds outside those contained in the Bill should be brought in. That would go some way to meet the strong feeling on his side of the House. The point was this. There might not be strong enough evidence on any one single ground to justify the refusal of the renewal, yet the evidence on these grounds combined might suffice for taking away a licence without compensation. All they desired was to enable the magistrates to deal with the three grounds in combination.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid there was nothing to prevent the magistrates from taking one, two, or three grounds and putting them together, but these grounds ought, in fact, to exist; they ought not to be able to add together three incomplete grounds in order to make one complete ground.
SIR ROBERT REIDsaid the result of the clause was to entirely alter the practice of the past. A house might have been bad structurally or the tenant might have misconducted it, but there had been hitherto a free discretion on the part of the magistrates in dealing with such cases and by the refusal of this Amendment the existing practice would be subverted.
MR. WHITTAKER (Yorkshire, W.R.,said this was a very important point, and it was necessary the country should know what was being done. Justices at present very frequently refused the renewal of a licence on several grounds, and the combination of grounds was the ground of refusal. The Government's attitude was an illustration of the way in which the power of the justices was going to be materially limited, hampered, and checked. In his opinion the compensation should be limited to the cases where the renewal was refused solely because the house was not required.
MR. GROVEShoped the Government would not give way on this point. If the licence-holder committed offences the magistrates would be able to exercise their powers as in the past; it was only to the point of compensation that the provision under discussion was directed. If the Amendment were accepted, they would, he feared, find that in nine cases out of ten trivial complaints would be combined in the manner suggested in order to depreciate the amount of compensation.
MR. TOMKINSONsaid he had in his mind a case that came before the Bench of which he was chairman, in which the representative of the sanitary authority objected to the renewal of a licence on the ground that the holder had persistently refused to provide a proper water supply. The justices, in the exercise of the power which they at present possessed, gave the licensee a certain time within which to remedy the defect. He was contumacious, and it was only when, as a last resource, the withdrawal of the licence was threatened that he agreed to equip his house with a proper water supply. He feared that
812
under the clause as it stood the power to exercise such pressure would be taken away from the justices.
SIR EDWARD CARSONassured the hon. Gentleman that the case he had mentioned would not come within the Bill.
SIR ARTHUR BIGNOLDstated that during the past year only 210 licences, out of a total of 99,450, were suppressed for duplicate reasons; and in only fifty cases was the ground of non-requirement united with misbehaviour or structural deficiency. He mentioned that in order to show that in the past these considerations had not acted very powerfully in deciding the question of the renewal or refusal of a licence.
MR. T. W. RUSSELLpointed out that there was nothing compelling quarter sessions to adopt this compensation scheme. There might be large districts where they would decline to adopt it. In that case, was it possible that the Government were contemplating arresting the action of the magistrates and impairing their discretion where compensation did not arise at all?
SIR ROBERT REID: And without leaving anybody else in authority to exercise discretion.
MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Yes. Continuing, the hon. Member said that the Government by refusing to accept this Amendment would be crippling the present power of the justices. The Government raised, in defence of that, that these people were entitled to compensation, and therefore they could not shut them out without depriving them of compensation. His point was this: Let them take an area, the quarter sessions of which would not put this Act into operation at all. Was it not quite clear that this Bill would stand nevertheless, and that it would cripple the present power of the justices. He knew that that was the object of the brewers; but why should it be the object of the Government?
SIR EDWARD CARSONreplied that he did not know whether that was a

813
proper way to put the question, but he was quite willing to answer the substance without admitting any of the deductions which the hon. Member had made. The Question which the hon. Member asked came to this: the quarter sessions might refuse to adopt the compensation clause. If they had an area not willing to take away licences, what did it matter whether they put in two, three, or four reasons?
MR. T. W.RUSSELL: But you are taking power from the local justices who do think there ought to be a reduction.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid there, again, his hon. friend was entirely in error. Any licence-holder might appeal against a refusal to renew a licence.
MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I know.
SIR EDWARD CARSON,continuing, said, if a county had a body of quarter sessions who were not prepared to adopt the clause or reduce licences it would be because they thought it was not necessary to reduce them. At all events, if they had a tribunal of that kind with important functions, not merely in relation to licences but to other matters, they must show some confidence in them.
LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEheld that the Committee was justified in calling attention at the earliest possible moment to the extraordinary position in which Courts of the quarter sessions would be placed. It seemed to be suggested that they would have to meet beforehand to decide whether or not they would put the Act in force. As chairman of quarter sessions he was one of those who would have to administer the Act, and he was bound to say that their position would be totally different from that adumbrated by the Solicitor-General. In his opinion they would deal with each case as it arose and would not beforehand pass any resolution stating whether or not the Act should be enforced. But what would be the position if there were no compensation fund established? Would the justices not be in the ridiculous position of having their hands tied? The speech of the Solicitor-General would
814
almost encourage quarter sessions to pass a resolution saying they did not approve of the Bill.
SIR EDWARD CARSON: The noble Lord has no right to say that.
LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid that the Bill, while setting up elaborate machinery for the establishment of a compensation fund, put in possession of the Court a power which, if it chose to exercise it, would absolutely nullify the measure. In any case, until the compensation fund grew, they would have the absurd state of things that in one county—a rich one—the Act would be in operation and in the next county—a poor one—it would be a dead letter.
MR. AUSTIN TAYLORsaid the point was that there was a possibility under Clause 3, that quarter sessions might not put into operation the levy for the purposes of compensation, and if they declined to do that they would have no fund available for compensation for the refusal to renew redundant licences. But that difficulty might be met by making it incumbent on quarter sessions to raise a compensation fund. When that was done it would still be open to quarter sessions to refuse to confirm the decision of the justices in regard to any particular licence. The position of the justices would not be altered. At present their decisions were subject to appeal. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman as to the vice from a temperance point of view of this particular clause. But they had debated it over and over again. The Government, by restricting the grounds upon which magistrates might refuse to renew licences to three—each of which he gathered from the Solicitor-General must be sufficient in itself as a ground of refusal—were most effectually crippling the powers of the magistrates with regard to the exercise of their magisterial discretion. It was impossible to accede to these compensation proposals without modifying in some way the absolute discretion of the magistrates, but he thought the difficulty might be met in the way suggested by the hon. Member for Carnarvon— I by giving the magistrates power to make

815
by-laws subject to an appeal to the Secretary of State. By that method the trade would be protected against the eccentricities of "cranky" Benches, to which the Prime Minister recently referred. The discussion, however, was being carried on under the shadow of the guillotine, that most perfect instrument of Parliamentary despotism, of which neither political Party could claim an absolute majority. That being so, it was necessary to make the most of the time that remained, and not go over the same ground two or three times. He therefore hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn.
COLONEL PILKINGTON (Lancashire, Newton)was understood to urge that the
word "shall" should be inserted when Clause 3 came to be discussed. Quarter sessions would no doubt do their duty but he thought it advisable that the raising of the compensation fund should be made compulsory.
SIR ROBERT REID,in order to save time, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Leave refused,.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 255. (Division List, No. 200.)

AYES.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Emmott, Alfred

Lewis, John Herbert

Allen, Charles P.

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Lloyd-George, David

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone

Lough, Thomas

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Lundon, W.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Lyell, Charles Henry

Barlow, John Emmott

Fenwick, Charles

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Bell, Richard

Flynn, James Chritsopher

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Benn, John Williams

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

M'Crae, George

Black, Alexander William

Fuller, J. M. F.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Blake, Edward

Furness, Sir Christopher

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Boland, John

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Brigg, John

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Markham, Arthur Basil

Broadhurst, Henry

Grant, Corrie

Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Newnes, Sir George

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Burt, Thomas

Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Harwood, George

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Caldwell, James

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

Cameron, Robert

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Parrott, William

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Partington, Oswald

Channing, Francis Alston

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Paulton, James Mellor

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Higham, John Sharpe

Philipps, John Wynford

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West

Price, Robert John

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Horniman, Frederick John

Rea, Russell

Cremer, William Randal

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk

Reckitt, Harold James

Crombie, John William

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Reddy, M.

Dalziel, James Henry

Jacoby, James Alfred

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Rickett, J. Compton

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

Joicey, Sir James

Rigg, Richard

Delany, William

Jordan, Jeremiah

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Devlin, CharlesRamsay (Galw'y

Joyce, Michael

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Kilbride, Denis

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Dobbie, Joseph

Kitson, Sir James

Robson, William Snowdon

Donelan, Captain A.

Lambert, George

Roche, John

Doogan, P. C.

Langley, Batty

Rose, Charles Day

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

Runciman, Walter

Duncan, J. Hastings

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Schwann, Charles E.

Dunn, Sir William

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight

Edwards, Frank

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Shackleton, David James

Elibank, Master of

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Ellice, Capt EC (S Andrw'sBghs

Leng, Sir John

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

Levy, Maurice

Sheehy, David

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Slack, John Bamford

Tillet, Louis John

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Tomkinson, James

Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Ure, Alexander

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Stevenson, Francis S.

Wallace, Robert

Wood, James

Strachey, Sir Edward

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Hudd'r sfi'd

Sullivan, Donal

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Yoxall, James Henry

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Tennant, Harold John

White, George (Norfolk)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Ellis Griffith and Mr. T. W.

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Russell.

NOES.

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Denny, Colonel

Hope, J.F. (Sheffield Brightside

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Horner, Frederick William

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Dickson, Charles Scott

Hoult, Joseph

Arrol, Sir William

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

Aubrey-Fletcher. Rt. Hon. Sir H

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Austin, Sir John

Dixon Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Doughty, George

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Baird, John George Alexander

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh

Balcarres, Lord

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Baldwin, Alfred

Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart

Kerr, John

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Kimber, Henry

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Doulgas

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

Lawson, JohnGrant (Yorks NR.

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

Lee, Arthur H.(Hants. Fareham.

Bartley, Sir George C. T.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Fisher, William Hayes

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Bignold, Arthur

Fison, Frederick William

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Bill, Charles

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

Lowe, Francis William

Bond, Edward

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

Flower, Sir Ernest

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F (Middlesex

Forster, Henry William

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Foster,Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth.

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Galloway, William Johnson

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Gardner, Ernest

Macdona, John Cumming

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Garfit, William

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Maconochie, A. W.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Gordon. Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn

M'Fadden, Edward

Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets

M'Iver, SirLewis (Edinburgh, W.

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gore, Hon S. F.Ormsby-(Linc)

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Majendie, James A. H.

Chapman, Edward

Graham, Henry Robert

Manners, Lord Cecil

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Greene, Henry D.(Shrews bury)

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Coates, Edward Feetham

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs

Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Grenfell, William Henry

Maxwell. Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Gretton, John

Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R.

Groves, James Grimble

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Gunter, Sir Robert

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Mil vain, Thomas

Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Crean, Eugene

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hare. Thomas Leigh

Moore, William

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)

Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)

Morpeth, Viscount

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.)

Morrell, George Herbert

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Heaton, John Henniker

Morrison, James Archibald

Dalkeith, Earl of

Helder, Augustus

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Mount, William Arthur

Davenport, W. Bromley

Hobhouse, Rt Hn H.(Somers't, E

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Hogg, Lindsay

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

818

819

Myers, William Henry

Robinson, Brooke

Tuff, Charles

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Valentia, Viscount

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Vincent, Col. Sir CEH(Sheffield

O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Walker, Col. William Hall

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Warde, Colonel C. E.

O'Dowd, John

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

Webb, Colonel William George

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E.(Taunton

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Samuel, Sir Harry S (Limehouse

Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.

Pemberton, John S. G.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Percy, Earl

Scott, Sir S. (Mary le bone, W.)

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und Lyne

Pierpoint, Robert

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Piatt-Higgins, Frederick

Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Plummer, Walter R.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Pretyman, Ernest George

Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Purvis, Robert

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Pym, C. Guy

Stewart, Sir Mark J M'Taggart

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Rankin, Sir James

Stock, James Henry

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Ratcliff, R. F.

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Reid, James (Greenock)

Stroyan, John

Young, Samuel

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Younger, William

Renwick, George

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Richards, Henry Charles

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Tollemache, Henry James

Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

MR. MCKENNAmoved to leave out of lines 9, and 10, after the word "licence," the words "shall be vested in quarter sessions instead of the justices of the licensing district." The effect of this Amendment would be to leave the control of the licences in the hands of the justices as at present. In every case the justices had local knowledge of the district over which they exercised jurisdiction, and their work on the whole had been satisfactory. There had been no recommendation in either of the Reports of the Royal Commission in favour of transferring the work of the justices to quarter sessions. What was proposed in the Bill was to remove the control from an administrative body and hand it over to the quarter sessions, who, according to the wording of the Act, were to act as a legal tribunal. If this proposal were adopted the real control over licences would be very much diminished, and all the elements of discretion would disappear. It was not necessary for him to quote the cases upon the authority of which it was established that quarter sessions now acted as a Court of Appeal. The justices were not a Court at all, and it was a very grave question of principle whether the control of licensing should
820
be handed over from an administrative body to a Court of Law. There was an Amendment further down on the Paper which provided that quarter sessions should act as an administrative body, but it did not appear to be absolutely necessary that the Court of quarter sessions should be substituted for the licensing justices at all. He was aware that, inasmuch as the area of subscription to the compensation fund was considered to be at least of a size commensurate with the quarter sessions jurisdiction, it was thought, therefore, that the Court of quarter sessions should be the controlling authority and not the licensing justices, whose area of subscription would be very much smaller. That difficulty could very easily be met. The Court of quarter sessions might easily allot the amount of money to be used as compensation within the area of the particular justices' brewster sessions, and it was not necessary to transfer the whole of the licensing powers from the justices to quarter sessions. If quarter sessions had power of limiting the amount of compensation in any particular area it would be perfectly possible to leave the actual control of each licence to the licensing justices. He admitted that quarter sessions must be introduced if they were to have the area of quarter

821
sessions as the area of subscription for the compensation fund. No doubt in certain cases the area over which the licensing justices had jurisdiction would be too small to provide adequate funds, but it was quite possible for the quarter sessions to determine what the proper amount was for each area of the licensing justices and allot that sum, and then the licensing justices should have jurisdiction in determining whether a licence should be discontinued or not. The proposal of the Government was to hand over the control of the licences from men who were thoroughly acquainted with the district to a body of gentlemen sitting at quarter sessions who were not, who could not know what were the particular requirements in the remote parts of the county, would be acting without the necessary local knowledge, and would be certain to discharge their duties less efficiently than would be done by the local justices. If the Government could not accept this Amendment in its present form, they might at least introduce words in order to leave unchecked the present jurisdiction of the licensing justices in their own area. If that were done, the Government would remove one of the most serious objections to the Bill, namely, that the justices who had hitherto done their work extremely well should not have withdrawn from them work which they had every reason to believe they would be able to continue to do thoroughly well. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, to leave out from the words last inserted to the word 'shall' in line 10."—(Mr. McKenna.)
Question proposed, "That the word' shall' stand part of the clause."
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent,said the hon. Member desired to leave the decision in regard to the taking away of licences in the hands of the local justices. He had already anticipated the objection of the Government, which was that the authority which dealt with the compensation fund should be the authority to deal with the licences to be refused. The hon. Member urged that a certain amount of
822
money should be allotted to each brewster sessions' area to compensate licence-holders in cases where licences were refused on the ground of public policy. He submitted that that course would not be at all reasonable or desirable. It would not work in practice. There would be some brewster sessions' areas where no, or a very small number of, reductions would be made; there would be others where the number would be considerable. The result would be very unequal distribution of the benefits of the Bill. Therefore, he thought it would be far better that the trust should be vested in quarter sessions, and that they should be the authority. He believed there would be a much more even distribution in that way of the reduction of licences all over the county.
LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid that, apart from the objections which had been so forcibly urged by his hon. friend, quarter sessions were a most unfortunate body to commit this jurisdiction to, because, since 1888, quarter sessions had not been an administrative body at all. Although technically, as had been pointed out, this was a judicial duty, still the matter was an administrative one. He asked the Home Secretary what staff quarter sessions had at the present moment in order to carry out these duties. Since 1888 their staff had consisted of the clerk of the peace and perhaps an officer to maintain order in Court when quarter sessions were sitting. Therefore, one objection, in addition to those already stated by the mover of the Amendment, he had to the proposal in the Bill was that quarter sessions would be compelled to take up administrative duties and appoint an administrative staff. That was a new venture and one which he ventured to think was most objectionable.
MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W.R.,said the machinery of quarter sessions had entirely gone out of use for collecting and distributing money in the way proposed in the Bill. The West Riding Sessions, with which he was most intimately associated, had passed a resolution to the effect that they did not see that they could possibly make use of the machinery now provided for this purpose

823
and suggested that the county council was the proper body to be called upon to collect the money, while they themselves would deal, under the Bill, with the money so gathered. In order to perform the duties now to be placed upon them, it would be necessary to appoint a number of officials. He had an Amendment on the Paper that these duties should be carried out by the joint committee. He was sure that the quarter sessions could not deal with the work proposed to be committed to them with the staff they now had.
MR. CRIPPSasked, on a point of order, if it would be open to the Committee on subsequent Amendments to discuss whether quarter sessions, or some other body, were to be the authority.
THE CHAIRMAN: The point raised by this Amendment is that the authority is to remain as it is now. If the House does not think so, it is still open to the House to suggest any other authority —the standing joint committee, a committee of quarter sessions, or quarter sessions themselves. This will not affect the further Amendments.
MR. CRIPPSsaid the present body was peculiarly unsuitable to be the authority on account of the area in which they acted being so small. That had been the great difficulty in carrying out any effective scheme of licensing reform. They could not carry out any effective scheme in a small area. In the county with which he was associated they did try to-carry out a scheme of temperance reform, and they could have done it over the county at large, but they found they could not do it by dealing only with district areas. In order to carry out this Bill effectively, it was necessary to have a county scheme so that the whole county might be properly dealt with. He thought the Bill did not give sufficient power to> the county authority. They ought to give the county authority, as against the smaller authority, power to do something definite in order to carry out a scheme which would do the best for temperance reform. It was important to have suitable administrative areas in which the magistrates might effectively carry out temperance reform.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 182. (Division List No. 201.)

AYES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Dickson, Charles Scott,

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Butcher, John George

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Aird, Sir John

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A (Glasgow

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Arrol, Sir William

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Doogan, P. C.

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Doughty, George

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA (Worc.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Austin, Sir John

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Chapman, Edward

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Charrington, Spencer

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Baird, John George Alexander

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W)

Balcarres, Lord

Coates, Edward Feetham

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

Baldwin, Alfred

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. R.

Fisher, William Hayes

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Fison, Frederick William

Bartley, Sir George C. T.

Cox, Irwin Edward Bain bridge

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Crean, Eugene

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Bignold, Arthur

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Flower, Sir Ernest

Bill, Charles

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Forster, Henry William

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Foster. Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.

Bond, Edward

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Galloway, William Johnson

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

Dalkeith, Earl of

Gardner, Ernest

Bowles, Lt.-Col. HF (Middlesex

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Garfit, William

Bowles, T. Gibbon (King's Lynn

Davenport, William Bromley

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin & Nairn

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Gordon, Maj Evans(T'r H'mlets

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

M'Fadden, Edward

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Goulding, Edward Alfred

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (EdinburghW

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Graham, Henry Robert

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

Majendie, James A. H.

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

Grenfell, William Henry

Manners, Lord Cecil

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Gretton, John

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Groves, James Grimble

Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Gunter, Sir Robert

Maxwell, W.J.H (Dumfriesshire

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Shaw-Stewart, Sir H (Renfrew)

Hamilton, Marq of(L'nd'nderry

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashford

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Milvain, Thomas

Smith, H.C(North'mb, Tyneside

Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Spear, John Ward

Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)

Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.

Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.

Moore, William

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Heaton, John Henniker

Moran, David J (Walthamstow

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Helder, Augustus

Morpeth, Viscount

Stock, James Henry

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Morrell, George Herbert

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Morrison, James Archibald

Stroyan, John

Hobhouse, Rt Hn H(Somers't, E

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J G (Oxf'd Univ.

Hogg, Lindsay

Mount, William Arthur

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Horner, Frederick William

Myers, William Henry

Tollemache, Henry James

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Hoult, Joseph

Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Houston, Robert Paterson

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Tuff, Charles

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Valentia, Viscount

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

Pemberton, John S. G.

Walker, Col. William Hall

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Percy, Earl

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh

Pierpoint, Robert

Webb, Colonel William George

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton)

Kerr, John

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Welby, Sir Charles G E.(Notts.)

Kimber, Henry

Plummer, Walter R.

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Whiteley, H.(Ashton-und. Lyne

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Lee, Arthur H.(Hants.Fareham

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Purvis, Robert

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Pym, C. Guy

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Rankin, Sir James

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham

Ratcliff, R. F.

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

Reid, James (Greenock)

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Remnant, James Farquharson

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Lowe, Francis William

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

Renwick, George

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Richards, Henry Charles

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Young, Samuel

Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Younger, William

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Macdona, John Cumming

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Robinson, Brooke

Alexander Acland-Hood

Maconochie, A. W.

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Black, Alexander William

Cameron, Robert

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Blake, Edward

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Allen, Charles P.

Boland, John

Channing, Francis Allston

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Brigg, John

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Broadhurst, Henry

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Atherley-Jones, L.

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Barlow, John Emmott

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Cremer, William Randal

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Burt, Thomas

Crombie, John William

Bell, Richard

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Benn, John Williams

Caldwell, James

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

826

827

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

Kilbride, Denis

Roche, John

Delany, William

Langley, Batty

Rose, Charles Day

Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galway

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Runciman, Walter

Dilke, Rt. Hon, Sir Charles

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Russell, T. W.

Dobbie, Joseph

Leese, Sir Joseph F.( Accrington

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel

Donelan, Captain A.

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Schwann, Charles E.

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark

Leng, Sir John

Seely, Maj. JEB (Isle of Wight

Duncan, J. Hastings

Levy, Maurice

Shackleton, David James

Dunn, Sir William

Lewis, John Herbert

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Edwards, Frank

Lloyd-George, David

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Elibank, Master of

Lough, Thomas

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Ellice, Capt. EC (S. Andra's Bghs

Lundon, W.

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Lyell, Charles Henry

Slack, John Bamford

Ellis, John Edward (Notts)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Emmott, Alfred

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

M'Crae, George

Stevenson, Francis S.

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Strachey, Sir Edward

Fenwick, Charles

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Sullivan, Donal

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Mitchell, Edw.(Fermanagh, N.)

Tennant, Harold John

Fuller, J. M. F.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Furness, Sir Christopher

Moulton, John Fletcher

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Murphy, John

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Newnes, Sir George

Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan, Gower

Grant, Corrie

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Tomkinson, James

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Ure, Alexander

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Wallace, Robert

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds S.)

Hain, Edward

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

O'Malley, William

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Harwood, George

Parrott, William

White, George (Norfolk)

Hayden, John Patrick

Partington, Oswald

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

Paulton, James Mellor

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Philipps, John Wynford

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Higham, John Sharpe

Price, Robert John

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Rea, Russell

Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West

Reckitt, Harold James

Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)

Horniman, Frederick John

Reddy, M.

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk

Reid. Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Wood, James

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Rickett, J. Compton

Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Huddersf'd

Jacoby, James Alfred

Rigg, Richard

Yoxall, James Henry

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Joicey, Sir James

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Jordan, Jeremiah

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

M'Kenna and Mr. Lambert.

Joyce, Michael

Robson, William Snowdon

MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid he wished to move an Amendment which concerned the county areas, and which he hoped would be taken into consideration by the Solicitor-General and the Home Secretary. He was not going to traverse the ground already gone over as to the disqualifications of the quarter sessions, but he submitted that the alternative he suggested was better than the one contained in the Bill as it now stood. As the Committee were aware, the joint police committee was elected—half by the quarter sessions, and half by the county council. It was a pretty well-known fact that in England and Wales the very best magistrates were
828
selected to sit on the joint police committee; and he believed that most of the county council members of that committee were themselves magistrates. The joint police committee had the control of the police, and he submitted that it would be a most convenient thing that that committee should have control of the licences throughout the county areas. He had reason to believe that his Amendment commended itself to the whole body of moderate men on both sides of the House. The Amendment, he thought, would do something to remove the objection to this part of the Bill which transferred the licensing authority from the local justices to the quarter session.s

829
The quarter sessions were often a very large body which had necessarily no local knowledge of many parts of the county, and it was admitted that the justices were chosen very much at haphazard by the Lord Chancellor. He was told that members of quarter sessions had been whipped up often on both sides when the granting or refusal of a particular licence was coming up for decision. All these difficulties would be removed by his Amendment. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall' to insert the words 'in county areas.'"—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
Sir EDWARD CARSONsaid that there were many reasons for retaining the jurisdiction proposed in the Bill. They had framed the Bill so as to interfere as little as possible with the existing procedure. Every alteration was solely due to the necessity of having a larger compensation area. In cases where, for non-requirement or for other reasons, the brewster sessions came to the conclusion that a licence ought to be taken away, they were, under the Bill, to make an order referring the question to the quarter sessions with their report; whereas, under the old system the licence-holder had a direct appeal to quarter sessions. That was the only difference. The reason why the matter had not been allowed to remain exactly as it was, was that the area of compensation furnished by the ordinary licensing district of brewster sessions would be too small. That being so, was it not better to keep the quarter sessions and the form of procedure as nearly as possible as it was, than to set
up a new tribunal which would have jurisdiction only in cases where compensation was concerned. In other words, they would have in every county, the quarter sessions seized of one part of this appellant jurisdiction, and the standing committee seized of another part of it. There was another question raised by this proposal, namely, the question of admitting a representative element in relation to the administration of the compensation fund. If the fund were a public fund subscribed out of the rates, or was in any way a county charge, it might be argued that there ought to be representation; but, of course, this fund was no such thing. It was a charge on one particular trade to enable them to insure against their licences being refused. He had always understood that the objection to this particular clause was that it interfered with the justices; but justices would be interfered with more by setting up a standing joint committee than by retaining quarter sessions. The Amendment, as far as he understood it, would also change what was proposed as regarded county boroughs, because it would take away from the whole body of the justices there the right to administer the fund in their own districts. That would be a great pity. In giving that power to justices in county boroughs he thought the Government were setting up the proper tribunal for administering this fund; and the reason why county boroughs were treated in this way was because they provided a sufficient compensation area. He was, therefore, unable to accept the Amendment.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 178; Noes, 265. (Division List No. 202).

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Benn, John Williams

Burt, Thomas

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Black, Alexander William

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Allen, Charles P.

Blake, Edward

Caldwell, James

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Boland, John

Cameron, Robert

Asquith. Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Brigg, John

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Aherley-Jones, L.

Broadhurst, Henry

Cawley, Frederick

Barlow, John Emmott

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Channing, Francis Allston

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Bell, Richard

Cremer, William Randal

Joyce, Michael

Rose, Charles Day

Crombie, John William

Lambert, George

Runciman, Walter

Crooks, William

Langley, Batty

Russell, T. W.

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Layland-Barrett, Francis

Schwann, Charles E.

Davies,M. Vaughan (Cardigan

Leese,Sir Joseph F(Accrington

Seely,Maj. JEB (Isle of Wight)

Delany, William

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Shackleton, David Jame

Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

Leng, Sir John

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Levy, Maurice

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Dobbie, Joseph

Lewis, John Herbert

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Lloyd-George, David

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Duncan, J. Hastings

Lough, Thomas

Slack, John Bamford

Dunn, Sir William

Lundon, W.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Edwards, Frank

Lyell, Charles Henry

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Elibank, Master of

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Ellice, CaptEC(S Andrw's Bghs

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Stevenson, Francis S.

Emmott, Alfred

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

M'Crae, George

Sullivan, Donal

Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

M'Kenna, Reginald

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Tennant, Harold John

Fenwick, Charles

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Mitchell,Edw.(Fermanagh, N.)

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen(

Thomas,JA (Glamorgan Gower

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Morpeth, Viscount

Tomkinson, James

Fuller, J. M. F.

Moulton, John Fletcher

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Furness, Sir Christopher

Newnes, Sir George

Ure, Alexander

Gladstone,Rt Hn. Herbert J.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Wallace, Robert

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Grant, Corrie

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Grey,Rt, Hn. Sir E. (Berwick

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

O'Kelly,James (Roscommon, N

Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

O'Malley, William

White, George (Norfolk)

Hain, Edward

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

Parrott, William

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Harcourt, RtHnSir W (Monm'th

Partington, Oswald

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Harwood, George

Paulton, James Mellor

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

Philipps, John Wynford

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

Price, Robert John

Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk Mid.)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Rea, Russell

Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)

Higham, John Sharpe

Reckitt, Harold James

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Hobhouse, C.E.H. (Bristol, E.)

Reddy, M.

Wood, James

Hobhouse,RtHnH. (Somers't,E

Reid,Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Woodhouse, SirJT (Huddersf'd

Horniman, Frederick John

Rickett, J. Compton

Yoxall, James Henry

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

Rigg, Richard

Jacoby, James Alfred

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Joicey, Sir James

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Ellis Griffith and Mr.

Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

Robson, William Snowdon

Dalziel.

Jordan Jeremiah

Roche, John

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Butcher, John George

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Campbell,Rt.Hn.JA (Gasgow)

Aird, Sir John

Barry,Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

Cautley, Henry Strother

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

Arrol, Sir William

Bignold, Arthur

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bill, Charles

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn.SirH.

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Austin, Sir John

Bond, Edward

Chamberlain, RtHn J.A. (Worc.

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Bousfield, William Robert

Chapman, Edward

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Bowles,Lt.-Col.H.F (Middlesex

Charrington, Spencer

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Baird, John George Alexander

Bowles,T.Gibson (King'sLynn

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Balcarres, Lord

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Coates, Edward Feetham

Baldwin, Alfred

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Cochrane,Hon. Thos. H. A. E

Balfour,Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Coddington, Sir William

832

833

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Horner, Frederick William

Purvis, Robert

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Pym, C. Guy

Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.

Hoult, Joseph

Rankin, Sir James

Colston, Chas, Edw. H. Athole

Houston, Robert Paterson

Ratcliff, R. F.

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham

Reid, James (Greenock)

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Remnant, James Farquharson

Crean, Eugene

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred

Renwick, George

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.

Richards, Henry Charles

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Kerr, John

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Davenport, William Bromley

Kimber, Henry

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Robinson, Brooke

Denny, Colonel

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow'

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Dickson, Charles Scott

Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Doogan, P. C.

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Doughty, George

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol,S)

Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Lowe, Francis William

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Duke, Henry Edward

Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Lucas Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Smith HC. (North'mb. Tyneside

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

Macdona, John dimming

Spear, John Ward

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Maconochie, A. W.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

Pinch, Rt. Hon. George H.

M'Fadden, Edward

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Fisher, William Hayes

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Stock, James Henry

Fison, Frederick William

M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

Stone, Sir Benjamin

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

Manners, Lord Cecil

Stroyan, John

Fitzroy,Hn. Edward Algernon

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Flower, Sir Ernest

Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E. (Wigt'n

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Forster, Henry William

Maxwell, W. T.H (Dumfriesshire

Tollemache, Henry James

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Galloway, William Johnson

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Gardner, Ernest

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Tuff, Charles

Garfit, William

Milvain, Thomas

Tuffnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Valentia, Viscount

Gordon, Hn. J E (Elgin & Nairn)

Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield

Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Moore, William

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Morgan David J. (Walthamstow

Walker, Col. William Hall

Graham, Henry Robert

Morrell, George Herbert

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

Morrison, James Archibald

Webb, Colonel William George

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

Grenfell, William Henry

Mount, William Arthur-

Welby, Sir Chas. G.E. (Notts.)

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Groves, James Grimble

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

Gunter, Sir Robert

Myers, William Henry

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset

Hall, Edward Marshall

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks.)

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Hare, Thomas Leigh

O'Dowd, John

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. Dulwich)

Peel Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Pemberton, John S. G.

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.

Percy, Earl

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Heaton, John Henniker

Pierpoint, Robert

Young, Samuel

Helder, Augustus

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Younger William

Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Plummer, Walter R.

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Hogg, Lindsay

Pretyman, Ernest George

Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes

MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid the object of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to secure that no change in the machinery with regard to licensing administration should take place except on the condition that quarter sessions decided to levy the annual charge referred to in Sub-section 1, Clause 3, of the Bill. The root principle of this Bill was to attempt to reduce licences throughout the country, but that, in the view of the Government, could not be adequately or justly done without payment of compensation. The Government had made it clear that there would have been no need for any change in regard to licensing jurisdiction had it not been necessary to have a compensation fund of this character for the benefit of those who lost their licences on the sole ground of non-requirement. The Government had more 'than once asserted that it was not their desire to interfere in any way with the jurisdiction of the local licensing justices, but that if it was absolutely necessary to set up a compensation fund then it was necessary for quarter sessions to decide the question of non-renewals on the ground of non-necessity. That being so, what possible ground could there be for any interference with the present powers of jurisdiction of the local justices unless quarter sessions decided to set up a compensation fund? It was admitted that there was an inconvenience with regard to the double jurisdiction and there were undoubtedly serious disadvantages connected with it. He urged this Amendment on the practical ground that above all things it was desirable that every kind of stimulus should be provided for uniformity of action throughout the country in regard to the setting up of this fund. It was perfectly plain that unless every quarter sessions decided to levy the fund the fund would be hopelessly inadequate to bring about any reduction of licences throughout the country. On these grounds he begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words ' in the event of quarter sessions deciding to impose in respect of all on-licences within their area the charges referred to in Section 3, Sub-section (1), of the Act.'"—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)
Question proposed, "That those words, be there inserted."
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid with regard to this Amendment he had nothing to add to what he had already said on a previous Amendment of a similar character. He asked what reason was there to suppose that quarter sessions would refuse to carry out their duty when this Bill was passed, any more than they refused to carry it out now. The whole argument in favour of this Amendment appeared to be that they were to assume that quarter sessions, when this Bill was passed, would refuse to administer the law. Did not the hon. Member who moved the Amendment see that if quarter sessions did not set up a compensation fund what it involved? Quarter sessions would at some time have to say, "We will not do our duty in the renewal of licences." They could not segregate the two cases. Directly quarter sessions refused to set up a compensation fund they abrogated all their functions under the Bill. If the Amendment were passed it would be necessary to go further and abolish quarter sessions altogether, because they might decide to set up the fund, but charge the minimum instead of the maximum rates, and thus defeat the purpose of the fund. It they were wicked enough to do the one thing they were bad enough to do the-other. There was really no ground for treating quarter sessions in this way, they had always transacted their business properly, and there was no reason to suppose that they would adopt a different course in the future.
MR. SHACKLETONpointed out that, inasmuch as the municipal authorities were losing their rights, there would be no reduction of licences whatever if the quarter sessions refused to act. It was only reasonable that this provision should be made compulsory. The local justices were most in touch with local opinion, but there was nothing in the Bill to give effect to the recommendation of both Reports of the Royal Commission that local opinion should be consulted. The Commission recommended that the licensing authority should be a combination of the justices and elected persons

837
from the town council, but there was no provision of that kind in the Bill. As the powers of the borough justices were to be taken away, the county justices ought to be compelled to do something on the recommendation of the local magistrates. His experience as a borough magistrate had not been such as to satisfy him that the county justices would take the necessary steps without pressure. He hoped, therefore, the Government would not refuse the concession asked for by this Amendment.
MR. ASQUITHsaid the conditions under which the discussion was being carried on did not admit of anything like free or adequate debate, but the matter raised by the present Amendment was of so much urgency, and the grounds on which the hon. Member had rested his case were so strong, that he thought the Government might give it a little more consideration. The proposal of the Amendment was that the jurisdiction at present possessed by the licensing justices should be retained by them unless quarter sessions, to which that jurisdiction was by this Bill to be transferred, resolved to set up this fund. He entirely demurred to the suggestion of the Solicitor-General that the quarter sessions would be guilty of any neglect of duty if they refused to raise the fund. In some counties it was in the highest degree probable that quarter sessions would not think it worth while to do so. In consequence of the small-ness of the area involved the fund would be wholly inadequate to effect any substantial reduction of licences, and quarter sessions might very reasonably say that they would have nothing whatever to do with the matter. What would be the position then? The power of the licensing justices
would have been taken away, and in its place a nugatory power given to quarter sessions; therefore in those counties the whole thing would be hung up, and there would be no authority in a position to exercise a jurisdiction which everybody admitted to be necessary. A. more reasonable Amendment had not, m his opinion, been proposed in the whole course of the discussion.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be all very well if the local authorities had an absolute power to refuse licences, but they had no such power, as the last word already lay with quarter sessions. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman should have said that quarter sessions would be able to ignore the Bill. But if any quarter sessions were in that frame of mind, if this Amendment were carried how many licences were they likely to do away with on the appeal of the local justices? The same matters would be operative with them, and would render the provision nugatory.
MR. DISRAELIdid not believe the quarter sessions of a single English county would refuse to take this matter up and act. Quarter sessions throughout the country had long desired to do something in the way of the reduction of licences, but they had not possessed the power. They were now to have the power, and it was not likely that any body of English gentlemen would refuse to exercise it.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes, 267. (Division List No. 203.)

AYES.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Boland, John

Cameron, Robert

Allen, Charles P.

Brigg, John

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Broadhurst, Henry

Cawley, Frederick

Atherley-Jones, L.

Brown, George M.(Edinburgh)

Channing, Francis Allston

Barlow, John Emmott

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

Burt, Thomas

Cremer, William Randal

Benn, John Williams

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Crombie, John William

Black, Alexander William

Caldwell, James

Crooks, William

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Jordan, Jeremiah

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Dalziel, James Henry

Joyce, Michael

Robson, William Snowdon

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Kitson, Sir James

Roche, John

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Rose, Charles Day

Delany, William

Lambert, George

Runciman, Walter

Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Calway

Langley, Batty

Russell, T. W.

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Dobbie, Joseph

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Doogan, P. C.

Leese SirJoseph F.(Accrington

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Sheehy, David

Duncan, J. Hastings

Long, Sir John

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Dunn, Sir William

Levy, Maurice

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Lewis, John Herbert

Slack, John Bamford

Edwards, Frank

Lloyd-George, David

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Elibank, Master of

Lough, Thomas

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Ellice, Capt EC (S. Andrw's Bghs

Lundon, W.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Spear, John Ward

Emmott, Alfred

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Stevenson, Francis S.

Evans, Sir Francis H.(Maidstone

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Strachey, Sir Edward

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Sullivan, Donal

Fenwick, Charles

M'Crae, George

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Markham, Arthur Basil

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

Tillet, Louis John

Fuller, J. M. F.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Tomkinson, James

Furness, Sir Christopher

Moss, Samuel

Toulmin, George

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Moulton, John Fletcher

Trevelyan, Charles Philip

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Murphy John

Ure, Alexander

Grant, Corrie

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Wallace, Robert

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E.( Berwick)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Walton, JohnLawson (Leeds, S.)

Griffith, Ellis T.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Hain, Edward

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

O'Mulley, William

White, George (Norfolk)

Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Harwood, George

Parrott, William

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Partington, Oswald

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Paulton, James Mellor

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Perks, Robert William

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Higham, John Sharpe

Philipps, John Wynford

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Price, Robert John

Wood, Tames

Horniman, Frederick John

Rea, Russell

Woodhouse Sir J.T (Hudd'rsfi'd

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

Reckitt, Harold James

Yoxall, James Henry

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Reddy, M.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Rickett, J. Compton

Mr. Herbert Roberts and

Joicey, Sir James

Rigg, Richard

Mr. Shackleton.

Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Butcher, John George

Aird, Sir John

Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Arrol, Sir William

Bignold, Arthur

Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bill, Charles

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Aubrey-Fletcher Rt. Hon. Sir H

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Austin, Sir John

Bond, Edward

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A.(Worc.

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Bousfield, William Robert

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Bowles, Lt. Col. H.F.(Middlesex

Chapman, Edward

Baird, John George Alexander

Charrington, Spencer

Balcarres, Lord

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Baldwin, Alfred

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Bull, William James

Coates, Edward Feetham

840

841

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Helder, Augustus

O'Brien, P. J.(Tipperary, N.)

Coddington, Sir William

Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Percy, Earl

Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R.

Hobhouse, Rt. Hn H(Somers't, E

Pierpoint, Robert

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Hogg, Lindsay

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Plummer, Walter R.

Craig. Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Horner, Frederick William

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Crean, Eugene

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Pretyman, Ernest George

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hoult, Joseph

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Purvis, Robert

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham

Pym, C. Guy

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Rankin, Sir James

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Ratcliff, R. F.

Davenport, W. Bromley-

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

Reid, James (Greenock)

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

Remnant, James Farquharson

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Dickson, Charles Scott

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Renwick, George

Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

Richards, Henry Charles

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Kerr, John

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Kimber, Henry

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Doughty, George

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Robinson, Brooke

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Knowles, Sir Lees

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Duke, Henry Edward

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N. R

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Faber, Edmund B.(Hants, W.)

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Long Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Samuel SirHarry S.(Limehouse

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Long Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Fisher, William Hayes

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Fison, Frederick William

Lowe, Francis William

Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Snarpe, William Edward T.

Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Shaw-Stewart, Sir H.(Renfrew)

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Flower, Sir Ernest

Macdona, John dimming

Smith, HC(North'mb Tyneside

Forster, Henry William

Maconochie, A. W.

Stanley, Ed ward Jas. (Somerset)

Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.

M'Fadden, Edward

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs

Galloway, William Johnson

M"Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Gardner, Ernest

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Garfit, William

Majendie, James A. H.

Stock, James Henry

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Manners, Lord Cecil

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin & Nairn)

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Stroyan, John

Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E(Wigt'n

Talbot Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriesshire

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Graham, Henry Robert

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Tollemache, Henry James

Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Tomlinson. Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs)

Milvain, Thomas

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Grenfell, William Henry

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Tuff, Charles

Gretton, John

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Valentia, Viscount

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Moore, William

Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH(Sheffield

Groves, James Grimble

Morgan David J.(Walthamstow

Walker, Col. William Hall

Gunter, Sir Robert

Morpeth, Viscount

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Hall, Edward Marshall

Morrell, George Herbert

Webb, Colonel William George

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Morrison, James Archibald

Welby, Lt.Col. C.E.(Taunton

Hambro, Charles Eric

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

Mount, William Arthur

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Hardy Laurence (Kent, Ahford)

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

Myers, William Henry

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Harris Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

Heath, James(Staffords., N. W.)

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H.(Yorks)

Heaton, John Henniker

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

842

843

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Young, Samuel

and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Younger, William

MR. J. H. LEWISsaid the object of his Amendment was to give quarter sessions the option of remaining outside the scope of the Act altogether, and that was a totally different question to the one which had just been decided. His proposal would enable quarter sessions, in cases where they considered it desirable, to wait in order that they might see how the Act operated in other counties. They all knew that at the commencement of an Act of this kind administrative mistakes were constantly made, and the various authorities gained by each other's experience. He thought it was desirable that there should be a certain amount of local option. Some countries were much more highly licensed than others, and some had not such a large proportion of licences. What they were doing by this Bill was to absolutely close every possible door by which any sort of different administration could be carried out as an experiment in different districts in the future. Surely the experience of their Colonies, and of Norway, Sweden, and the United States, supplied them with a sufficient number of precedents to work upon. They were by this measure making any sort of licensing reforms impossible except upon the lines suggested by this Bill. He particularly asked that in the Welsh counties they should have in the future some chance of settling this question in their own way, and on their own lines. If Courts of quarter sessions in Wales, knowing the feelings of the Welsh people, should decide that it would be better to defer putting the Act into operation in order to see whether some better method could be found, which would promote temperance reform, he suggested that some liberty should be given to those Courts to adopt that course. The fact that there was no time limit in the Bill made an Amendment of this kind all the more necessary. Had there been a time limit they might have looked forward to some change of a beneficial character not altogether upon the lines of this Bill. He urged that the Government should give some measure of local option to the counties in-order that some of the
844
counties might keep outside the sphere of this Bill, and thus give Parliament an opportunity of perhaps settling the question in a different way in the future. For the reasons he had given he hoped the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment he had proposed.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words, 'when quarter sessions so determine.'"—(Mr. J. H. Lewis.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid the object of the hon. Member's Amendment was to wait to see how the Bill operated in neighbouring counties; and he also desired that there should be a general local option in regard to the Act altogether. The Government thought the Bill was for the general benefit of the public and he saw no reason why the principle laid down should not apply all round. On these grounds he could not agree to the Amendment.
MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid that after his experience on the Licensing Bench he was quite certain that justices would object to the alteration proposed in the Bill. It would be entirely against the public interest and there would be considerable feeling on the part of many licensing justices against putting the Bill in operation. They should have the option as the Amendment proposed to remain on their present footing and not adopt the Bill. The Home Secretary has stated that the Bill was one to reduce licences and that that was a good thing. He admitted that was a good thing, but it certainly was not a more important section of licensing reform than some others. There were half-a-dozen objects of even greater importance than the mere reduction of licences, and, keen as he was himself for restricting the excessive use of liquor, he was certain that this was not a Bill which should be put in operation by a Bench that had

845
the power of effecting reforms in the liquor traffic in other ways. This was a vicious Bill and the local justices should have the power of not adopting it.
Mr. CHARLES HOBHOTJSEsaid it was only fair that the opinion of the local justices should receive some attention in regard to a Bill of this sort, which they had to administer. The spirit of local option which the Amendment proposed to introduce into the Bill already obtained in regard to the Education Act. It was a spirit which had been found on the whole to make Acts of Parliament work fairly. Whether this Bill was good or bad was outside the question now before the Committee. The magistrate who disapproved of the measure would always be loth to administer it. Yet as a matter of fact Licensing Benches would have, after all, to put the Act into operation. That being so, some power of discrimination in this matter should be left to the licensing justices. Quarter sessions were supposed to know the conditions of a whole county over which they administered justice, and on the whole it was a fair contention that, knowing those conditions, they would he in a better position than the House to apply the Bill. For this reason the elasticity provided for by the Amendment should be put into the Bill.
Mr. J. H. LEWISregretted that the Government could not see their way to make a concession on this point, and all the more so because some of the counties were so extremely large that quarter sessions might reasonably consider that they could not take over the powers of the local justices which were given to them by this Bill, and that they would prefer to see how the experiment worked in other parts of the country. In his own county it was variously estimated that it would take between eighty and 100 years to get the number of licences down to the same level as in the adjoining county of Merioneth. In the course of the debate it had been mentioned that the average cost of a licence would be £800. He believed that was the figure given officially in a pamphlet written on behalf of the trade. Quarter sessions might reasonably flay: "We will see whether some better means of reducing licences cannot be got
846
than this, and in the meantime we will collect experience from all parts of the country." If the right hon. Gentleman would not accept the Amendment he would be bound to press it to a division.
MR. JOHNSONsaid he believed it was desirable that local justices should have the option, in connection with this Bill, of waiting to get some experience before adopting it. He regretted that the Government had not accepted the Amendment. It appeared to him that the Government were not only determined to make no concessions whatever, but that this Bill was to be put through by sheer force, and that the smallest attempts on the Opposition side of the House to minimise its drastic effects were to be absolutely ignored. He hoped that some concessions which would be likely to make the Bill workable would be granted. Surely the local justices were the best able to judge whether the Bill should be put in operation or not. But it appeared to him no discretion was to be given, even to the Courts of quarter sessions, and that they must adopt and carry out the Bill at all hazards.
Mr. WHITLEYsaid his hon. friend was quite correct in appealing to the analogy of the Education Bill. The great mistake which was made in connection with the Education Bill, and which was having a disastrous effect all over the country at the present moment, was that the areas were too big for any single body to deal with. The Government had already acknowledged their mistake in that respect by adopting smaller areas under the Scotch Education Bill. In the Bill now before the Committee they proposed to have a body which would rest on the advice of officials. The Amendment proposed that power should be left to quarter sessions to divide their administrative areas into districts, and to delegate their duties in that way.
Mr. LAMBERT (Devonshire,)said that, after all, they wanted to give local authorities some option as to what they should do, as they knew what they were fitted for. A protest was made in Devonshire against being saddled with the duties of the Education Act, and now

847
the cost of administration had gone up enormously without any increased efficiency. Who was to pay for the increased staff consequent on the Licensing Bill? He was certain the ratepayers in his county would strongly object. The Government thought the county was a sort of divine area. A county could do no wrong, but anything less than a county area was hopeless. If a county was fitted to carry out the duties surely it was fitted to know whether it should carry them out or not. These were entirely novel proposals and he would ask the Government to give some elasticity to county bodies as to what they should put in force. Owing to the drastic proposals of the Government he did not know what this Bill really proposed to do. Supposing the county justices did not put the Bill in force, were there any compulsory powers provided to compel them to put it in force? He might be told that that
question would arise later on, but it might be wiped out by closure by compartments. The Amendment of his hon. friend was perfectly conciliatory, and if the Government were not proof against accepting any suggestion for the improvements of the Bill, which he was afraid they were, he hoped they would give a favourable ear to his hon. friend's proposal. If not, it would only be another case of the extravagant inefficiency caused by this scheme of the Government, which meant something like centralisation gone mad. If they were met with a blank refusal by the Government they could, of course, only support their opinion in the Division Lobby.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 116; Noes, 271. (Division List No. 204.)

AYES.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Perks, Robert William

Allen, Charles P.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Philipps, John Wynford

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

Price, Robert John

Barlow, John Emmott

Griffith, Ellis J.

Reddy, M.

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Hain, Edward

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Rigg, Richard

Benn, John Williams

Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Boland, John

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Roche, John

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Russell, T. W.

Burt, Thomas

Henderson Arthur (Durham)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Higham, John Sharpe

Schwann, Charles E.

Caldwell, James

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Shackleton, David James

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Cawley, Frederick

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Channing, Francis Allston

Jacoby, James Alfred

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Jordan, Jeremiah

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Joyce, Michael

Soames. Arthur Wellesley

Cremer, William Randal

Kitson, Sir James

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Lambert, George

Strachey, Sir Edward

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Langley, Batty

Sullivan, Donal

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.).

Delany, William

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway

Levy, Maurice

Thomas J A (Glamorgan Gower)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lundon, W.

Ure, Alexander

Dobbie, Joseph

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Wallace, Robert

Dunn, Sir William

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Elibank, Master of

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Emmott, Alfred

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

Mappin, Sit Frederick Thorpe

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Markham, Arthur Basil

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull, W.)

Fenwick, Charles

Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Murphy, John

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Newnes, Sir George

Wood, James

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Hudd'rsf'd

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Fuller, J. M. F.

Parrott, William

Herbert Lewis and Mr.

Furness, Sir Christopher

Partington, Oswald

John Johnson.

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Knowles, Sir Lees

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Duke, Henry Edward

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Aird, Sir John

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.

Arrol, Sir William

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Austin, Sir John

Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

Baird, John George Alexander

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Balcarres, Lord

Fisher, William Hayes

Lowe, Francis William

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Fison, Frederick William

Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

FitzGerald, Sir Bobert Penrose-

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Flower, Sir Ernest

Macdona, John dimming

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Forster, Henry William

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Bignold, Arthur

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

Maconochie, A. W.

Bill, Charles

Galloway, William Johnson

M'Fadden, Edward

Blundell, Colonel Henry.

Gardner, Ernest

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh)

Bond, Edward

Garfit, William

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

Majendie, James A. H.

Bousfield, William Robert

Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn

Manners, Lord Cecil

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)

Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'mlets

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H.E. (Wig'tn

Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

Bull, William James

Graham, Henry Robert

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Butcher, John George

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A. (Glasgow)

Grenfell, William Henry

Milvain, Thomas

Carson, R. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Gretton, John

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire)

Groves, James Grimble

Moore, William

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gunter, Sir Robert

Morgan, David J. (Walth'stow

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hall, Edward Marshall

Morpeth, Viscount

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Morrell, George Herbert

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A. (Worc.

Hambro, Charles Eric

Morrison, James Archibald

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton)

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Chapman, Edward

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

Mount, William Arthur

Charrington, Spencer

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

Coates, Edward Feetham

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Myers, William Henry

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Coddington, Sir William

Heaton, John Henniker

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Helder, Augustus

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Colomb, Rt. Hn. Sir John C. R.

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. (Athole.)

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Percy, Earl

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Hobhouse, Rt. Hn. H (Somers't, E

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Hogg, Lindsay

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Crean, Eugene

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Plummer, Walter R.

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Horner, Frederick William

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Pretyman, Ernest George

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Hoult, Joseph

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Dalkeith, Earl of

Houston, Robert Paterson

Purvis, Robert

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

Pym, C. Guy

Davenport, William Bromley-

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Rankin, Sir James

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Ratcliff, R. F.

Denny, Colonel

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Reid, James (Greenock)

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Dickson, Charles Scott

Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Renwick, George

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Richards, Henry Charles

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Doogan, P. C.

kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

Kerr, John

Roberts, Samuel Sheffield

Doughty, George

kimber, Henry

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

king, Sir Henry Seymour

Robinson, Brooke

850

851

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Welby, Sir Charles G. G. (Notts.

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Stock, James Henry

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Stroyan, John

Williams, Colonel B. (Dorset)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

Samuel, Sir Harry S(Limehouse

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Tollemache, Henry James

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Tuff, Charles

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Young, Samuel

Smith, H.C. (North'mb. Tyneside

Valentia, Viscount

Younger, William

Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H. ( Sheffield

Spear, John Ward

Walker, Col. William Hall

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Webb, Colonel William George

Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.

Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunton

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid that the object of his Amendment was to secure that there should be some provision for a systematic report and inquiry by the justices in each licensing district as regarded public-houses for the guidance of quarter sessions. The consequential part of the Amendment appeared on page twenty-eight of the Amendment Paper. He considered that under the scheme of the Bill it was necessary to transfer those powers from the licensing justices to the quarter sessions; but they should be careful, in doing that, not to unnecessarily weaken the power of the licensing justices. There was no new duty imposed under this Bill on the licensing justices to take any survey of the public-houses in their district and to decide which of them ought to be shut up and which ought to be continued. The great object of this Bill, as they were constantly informed by the Government, was to make a large reduction in the number of public-houses; and it was because of that consideration that many of them voted for the Second Reading. But, unless there was some further provision, that would not be done in all cases. In saying that he did not wish to cast any slur on quarter sessions, of the honour of which the Solicitor-General was so justly jealous. He had no doubt they would do their duty; but that duty would be to deal from time to time with the individual cases referred to them. Quarter sessions would have no initiative; and he contended that the only way in which quarter sessions could get a comprehen-
852
sive view of the conditions, and exercise any intelligent discrimination as to what public-houses should be shut, was to provide within the lour corners of the Bill for a proper and systematic inquiry by the justices in every licensing district, who were the people best acquainted with the facts. It was most important that quarter sessions before they proceeded to administer the compensation fund should have a comprehensive report such as he proposed. Otherwise, there would be certain to be great irregularity, which would be undesirable. There ought to be a proper and systematic report. He had an Amendment further on to provide that the justices of every licensing district should, at their general licensing sessions, or an adjournment thereof, to be held in the year 1905, and in every third subsequent year, inquire into the needs of their district and the number and character of the licensed houses therein, and should make a report to quarter sessions stating the particular on-licences (if any) which in their opinion ought not to be renewed, and any circumstances affecting such licences or the holder thereof which might he material to the renewal or to the value of such licences. If that could be secured, then, and only then, would quarter sessions be able to take a comprehensive view of their duties and decide what was best in the interests of temperance. He did not insist on the exact words of the Amendment; but he hoped the Government would insert an Amendment to carry out his object.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, after the word 'shall' to insert the words 'subject to the provisions of this section for inquiry and report by licensing justices.'"—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that any Amendment moved by his right hon. friend would naturally receive the fullest consideration from the Government. He was not sure, however, that he quite understood the Amendment except in a general way. He understood it to mean that quarter sessions should every three years take a full survey of the whole situation. What was to follow? If they had to wait until this survey was made every three years in order to see what action should be taken, this would mean a revolution in the present annual system. At present there was annual revision, which, he submitted, was a much better system, for it enabled the licensing authorities to carry out the wishes of the justices in each district as far as they were agreed. He could not see, therefore, what was to be gained by changing the system. The Amendment gave quarter sessions powers of initiation which they did not now possess, and he thought that the annual revision was preferable. The point he did not understand was what action would be taken in the interval between the triennial periods.
MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid that there was nothing in his Amendment to prevent a report in any year.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid it would be open to the justices to take a survey at any period, and report to quarter sessions. He did not really think anything would be gained by the Amendment. They did not intend to interfere with the licensing justices further than was necessitated by the principles of compensation. It would be impossible, without changing the whole licensing law, to take away the annual revision; and there would be no difficulty in the licensing justices surveying their districts and reporting to quarter sessions. He had not the least objection to confer with the right hon. Gentleman. This was a matter which did not go to the principle of the Bill and he would have
854
pleasure in meeting his hon. friend, if he could, by drafting an Amendment which would carry out the object he desired. He might say that there was a similar Amendment further down on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon, which he was prepared to accept, which had in view that the progress of quarter sessions should be steadily kept under review. That seemed to him to be an important Amendment, keeping strictly in view what was being done, and an Amendment which he was prepared to accept. So far as the wording of this Amendment was concerned, while he did not say an Amendment of this character ought not to be accepted, it gave greater power of control to quarter sessions, and that being so he could not accept it.
MR. CRIPPSsaid, though they were grateful to the Solicitor-General for what he had said, that he could not help thinking the hon. and learned Gentleman had not entirely apprehended what this Amendment sought to do. The underlying idea was to obtain a triennial or annual review, of the licences of each district. He agreed that it should be an annual review but that was a detail which did not go to the basis of the Amendment. In order that the county authority should do its best and make the best of the compensation fund, it would be necessary to work on what might be called a county scheme. They had to see what had to be done in the county area in order to see how the fund could be worked to the best advantage, and how could a county scheme be arrived at without making the county authority the initiating authority for this reform? What his right hon. friend proposed by his Amendment was not to interfere with the main principle but to so modify it as to obtain the knowledge of the local authority, so as to enable the county authority to use the compensation fund to the best advantage, and he proposed to do so by asking the local Bench of each district to send are port to the county authority of the needs of the district. If that were done the county authority would be able to get out a good county scheme because they would have the local knowledge which every one desired they should

855
have. Instead of having to rely on a chance objection made by an individual they would be able to ask each particular bench of magistrates to draw out the scheme which they thought best for administering the Bill in their own particular district. When the local justices had done that the county authority could act on the full information coming from these local authorities and the fund would be allocated to its true purpose. He asked the Solicitor-General, therefore, to say that, if a scheme could be evolved which would at once preserve the power of the licensing magistrates of the district and at the same time ensure that the quarter sessions had proper information to deal with the fund in the best possible manner under a county scheme, an Amendment should be introduced to bring together those two desirable objects. Every one interested in this licensing question would agree that this would be a great administrative reform and that it would enable this Bill to be carried out in a broad and at the same time a most economical manner. On these grounds he supported the Amendment.
MR. DUKEsaid he hoped the Solicitor-General would introduce some words into the Bill to give effect to the principle of the Amendment of his right hon. friend. The Bill as it stood was incomplete without the acceptance of some such Amendment as that. The Solicitor-General had assumed that there was at the licensing sessions at the present time a review of licences with a view of ascertaining where licences were redundant.
SIR EDWARD CARSON: I say they have the power.
MR. DUKEsaid he had no doubt of that, but what he desired was that they should not only have the power, but that they should also be reminded of their duty. If words were not put in to impress upon the justices the necessity of considering whether there were, or were not, redundant licences in their district, this Bill would fail in its object. All that was desired by the hon. Member for East Somersetshire was that some words should be introduced which
856
would make it the duty of the licensing justices, either annually or at some other period of time, to consider whether there were in the district redundant licences and what ought to be done with those licences The concession which the Government had made with regard to the imposition upon quarter sessions of the duty of reporting to the Home Secretary was the strongest possible argument in favour of putting upon the licensing justices the duty of reporting to the quarter sessions.
MR. TALBOTsaid he desired to support the Amendment, but from a different point of view from that of the mover of it. What he hoped would result from this discussion was that that stimulus would be applied to the local justices which, notwithstanding what had been said as to their extreme energy, was requisite looking to the infirmities of human nature. As the general desire was to remove all redundant licences it must be made not only permissible for the local justices to remove them, but a stimulus must be applied to ensure that they should do so. It was for the reason that he desired to see the stimulus applied that he supported the Amendment.
MR. PEELasked whether, in view of the strong feeling on the Government side of the House that something in the direction of the Amendment should be carried out, the Solicitor-General would undertake to introduce a clause. If the matter were postponed to the Report stage, there might, in consequence of the arrangement of new clauses, be some difficulty.
SIR EDWARD CARSONwas not sure that he yet understood the object of the Amendment. It appeared to be an attempt to enlarge the power of quarter sessions. Under the Bill the licensing justices were the persons to select the houses to be sent up to quarter sessions. They were bound to do that each year.
MR. DUKEpointed out that there was no obligation in the Bill.
SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that neither was there any obligation upon the licensing justices now. This was a new complaint. Hitherto the point he had had to meet was that the Government were taking away powers of the licensing justices, but the case here was different. If the selection was left to the licensing justices, how, by sending up a report to quarter sessions, could they effect anything unless the initiation was left to quarter sessions? He did not think the Amendment was necessary, but if the object was to make it clear that it was for brewster sessions to select the cases and for quarter sessions to say whether they agreed or disagreed, he was quite willing to try to meet that view. Under the Bill quarter sessions would have a report from, and a consultation with, the licensing justices, and he failed to see what further assistance in coming to a conclusion would be given by the Amendment. There was also the question of expense. If each year the licensing justices were to send up a report, not merely of the houses which they suggested should be taken away in that year, but of all redundant houses, leaving it to quarter sessions to make a selection, not only would that be a greater infringement upon the rights of the licensing justices than the Bill now made, but it would be necessary for every person interested in each one of those houses to appear annually before quarter sessions, although probably less than one-tenth of the houses would be dealt with in any particular year. That would be almost a prohibitive matter from the point of view of expense. If it was thought to be any advantage that the local magistrates should make the same annual report to the Home Office, and that that Department should distribute it to quarter sessions, he was willing to include that in the Amendment he had promised.
MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid he was afraid that would not meet the case. His object was that quarter sessions should have from each district not only a report as to the particular houses which were proper subjects for immediate action, but full information as to the other houses which it would be advisable to get rid of in the future, so that they should not
858
dissipate all their money at once. He was sure that was an object which the Government could secure if they liked. This subject would not be discussed on Report owing to the very stringent rules which had been laid down, and he was very much afraid that a mere conference would not produce that effect which would cause the suggestion to be accepted.
MR. TALBOTsaid that after hearing what the Solicitor-General had said he was thoroughly satisfied. He was of opinion that these powers which the justices had possessed had not always been operative forces in the country, and he thought it would require a considerable amount of pressure on the local justices to make sure that they would put this provision into operation. The Solicitor-General had promised to provide that it should be the duty of the licensing justices to report to the Home Office what they had done under the Act, and probably that would give that stimulus to putting the Act into operation which he desired.
MR. AUSTIN TAYLORsaid he did not know whether his right hon. and learned friend appreciated the fact that this Bill gave no stimulus whatever to the licensing justices to take a survey of the needs of the district every year. Clause 2 provided that the licensing justices were to report on the question of the renewal of any particular on-licences. A concrete illustration of what had happened in Liverpool was valuable as a forecast of what was likely to happen under this Bill. In Liverpool they took a number of areas where the property had been demolished, and year by year they considered the redundancy of licences in those areas. After extinguishing a number of licences in any particular area they did not trouble that district again for some time, and possibly would not touch any more licences in that district for many years. That was a illustration of how this Bill ought to work if any good was really going to be done. His hon. friend had stated that in the past some benches of magistrates had been too active while others had not been active enough. What he desired was to give the necessary stimulus to the licensing

859
justices to bring their efforts up to the requirements of temperance reform by directing them to take a survey of the whole needs of the area.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 192; Noes, 251. (Division List No.205.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, K.E.)

Grant, Corrie

Paulton, James Mellor

Allen, Charles P.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwiek)

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Griffith, Ellis J.

Perks, Robert William

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Philipps, John Wynford

Atherley-Jones, L.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Price, Robert John

Barlow, John Emmott

Hain, Edward

Rea, Russell

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Reckitt, Harold James

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale)

Reddy, M.

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B

Harcourt, Rt. Hn Sir W(Monm't)

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Bell, Richard

Harwood, George

Rickett, J. Compton

Benn, John Williams

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Bill, Charles

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Black, Alexander William

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Roland, John

Higham, John Sharpe

Roche, John

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Brigg, John

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Rose, Charles Day

Broadhurst, Henry

Horniman, Frederick John

Runciman, Walter

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Shackleton, Davin James

Burt, Thomas

Jacoby, James Alfred

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Caldwell, James

Joicey, Sir James

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H

Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Cawley, Frederick

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Slack, John Bamford

Channing, Francis Allston

Jordan, Jeremiah

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Joyce, Michael

Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Kitson, Sir James

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Lambert, George

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Craig Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Langley, Batty

Spear, John Ward

Cremer, William Randal

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Crombie, John William

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Crooks, William

Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Leng, Sir John

Sullivan, Donal

Cullinan, J.

Levy, Maurice

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Dalziel, James Henry

Lewis, John Herbert

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Lloyd-George, David

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Lough, Thomas

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Delany, William

Lundon, W.

Tomkinson, James

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lyell, Charles Henry

Toulmin, George

Dobbie, Joseph

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Duncan, J. Hastings

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Ure, Alexander

Dunn, Sir William

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Wallace, Robert

Edwards, Frank

M'Crae, George

Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.)

Elibank, Master of

M'Kenna, Reginald

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Ellice, Capt, E.C. (SAndrw's Bghs

M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.)

Emmott, Alfred

Markham, Arthur Basil

White, George (Norfolk)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Evans, Sir Fran. H. (Maidstone

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

Morpeth, Viscount

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Moss, Samuel

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Fenwick, Charles

Moulton, John Fletcher

Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Murphy, John

Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Newnes, Sir George

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Yoxall, James Henry

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Fuller, J. M. F.

O'Malley, William

Furness, Sir Christopher

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Parrott, William

Henry Hobhouse and Mr.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Partington, Oswald

Austin Taylor.

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol S.)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Aird, Sir John

Egerton, Hon. A. do Tatton

Lowe, Francis William

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Faber, Edmund R. (Hants, W.)

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Arrol, Sir William

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth)

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Austin, Sir John

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Macdona, John Gumming

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Fisher, William Hayes

MacIver, David- (Liverpool)

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Fison, Frederick William

Maconochie, A. W.

Baird, John George Alexander

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

M'Fadden, Edward

Balcarres, Lord

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

M'Iver, Sir Lewis ( Edinb'rgh, W.)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Flannery, Sir Fortcscue

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Flower, Sir Ernest

Majendie, James A. H.

Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Forster, Henry William

Malcolm, Ian

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen.

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W.

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Galloway, William Johnson

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Gardner, Ernest

Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Garfit, William

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Bhowuaggree, Sir M. M.

Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Bignold, Arthur

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Milvain, Thomas

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Bond, Edward

Graham, Henry Robert

Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Bousfield, William Robert

Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

Morrell, George Herbert

Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

Grenfell, William Henry

Morrison, James Archibald

Bull, William James

Gretton, John

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Mount, William Arthur

Butcher, John George

Groves, James Grimble

Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

Campbell. Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

Gunter, Sir Robert

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Carlile, William Walter

Hall, Edward Marshall

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Myers, William Henry

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hambro, Charles Eric

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Cavendish. V.C.W. (Derbyshire

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Wore.

Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

O'Dowd, John

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Heath, James (Staffords, N.W.)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Chapman, Edward

Heaton, John Henniker

Pemberton, John S. G.

Charrington, Spencer

Hendorson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

Percy, Earl

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Pierpoint, Robert

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Pilkington, Colonel Richard.

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Hogg, Lindsay

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Coates, Edward Feetham

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Cohrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

Hoult, Joseph

Pretyman, Ernest George

Coddington, Sir William

Houston, Robert Paterson

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

Rankin, Sir James

Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C.R.

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

Ratcliff, R. F.

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Reid, James (Greenock)

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Remnant, James Farquharson

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Crean, Eugene

Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

Renwick, George

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Richards, Henry Charles

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Kerr, John

Robinson, Brooke

Davenport, William Bromley

Keswick, William

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Kimber, Henry

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Dickson, Charles Scott

Knowles, Sir Lees

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Dimsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Doogan, P. C.

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Doughty, George

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

862

863

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Tuff, Charles

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Valentia, Viscount

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H. (Sheffield

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

Walker, Col. William Hall

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Stock, James Henry

Webb, Colonel William George

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

Young, Samuel

Stroyan, John

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Younger, William

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Alexander Acland-Hood

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

MR. CHANNINGsaid he did not propose to move the Amendment standing in his name. He thought it was desirable to support the Amendment to be proposed by the hon. Member for Huddersfield.
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsaid he wished to move in line 9 of Clause 1, after "in," to insert "a committee, one-half of whom in every case shall be elected by the justices of the licensing district from their own number, and one-half by the county council from their own number." He said that this Amendment raised the question of the introduction of some representative element in the constitution of the authority which would have to deal with licences. He was fortified in submitting the Amendment by the fact that the principle received the support of both the Majority and Minority Reports of the Royal Commission. He also claimed that the Scottish Act of last year contained precisely the same suggestion he was making. What was good for Scotland ought to be good for England. Apart from that, the introduction of the representative principle was thoroughly justified by the fact that the ratepayers had to pay for the consequences of intemperance in the shape of increased police rates and poor rates and all the consequences that flowed from the excessive use of intoxicating drinks. The ordinary principle of self-government, namely, that what the ratepayers had to pay for they ought to have some right to control, should be observed in this matter. As long ago as 1835 the House of Commons sanctioned that principle, when the Municipal Reform Act of that year was under discussion, by a large majority. The House of Lords rejected the proposal, but the view of the House of Commons
864
was that the whole question of licences should be placed in the hands of municipal corporations. Further, the Conservative Government, when the Local Government Act was being considered in the year 1888, proposed to give a committee of the county council power to deal with licences, so that he had these precedents in support of his Amendment.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 9, to leave out from the word 'in,' to the word 'but,' in line 10, and insert the words 'a committee, one-half of whom in every case shall be elected by the justices of the licensing district from their own number, and one-half by the county council from their own number.'"—(Sir James Woodhouse.)
Question proposed, "That the words 'quarter sessions' stand part of the clause."
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,said that the Government were unable to accept the Amendment. The hon. Member had referred to what took place in 1888, when the Conservative Government proposed to make a committee of the county council the authority to administer licences; but the authority of 1888 was based on different principles from those which they were now proposing; although he admitted now proposing; although he admitted that if the proposal of the Government of 1888 had been accepted a great many of the existing difficulties would not have arisen. The Amendment was wholly at variance with the principle followed in drafting the Bill, which had been to make as little change as possible in the existing system and to leave the decision to a judicial body. There were differences of administration in counties and boroughs, but as closely as possible the

865
Bill kept to the existing system. The Amendment would mean a radical change in the existing system, and such was not intended. Really the changes made by the Bill in the licensing system would be small; if the justices refused a renewal of a licence to an applicant, the ultimate decision would rest with the quarter sessions as a judicial body.
SIR JAMES WOODHOUSE: That would not apply to county boroughs.
MR. WALTER LONG: There were points of difference in administration between the county boroughs and the county councils. The Government had endeavoured to keep as nearly as possible to the existing system, and to leave to the magistrates the decision of the matters in question. The proposal
of the hon. Gentleman would involve a complete change in the existing system, because instead of these cases being referred to quarter sessions they would be referred to a committee, half of whom would be elected by the licensing justices and half by the county council. They proposed to give to the body in which the power now rested the right to say what licence should not be renewed and the exercise of that right accompanied by compensation to be provided by the trade itself. The Amendment would be a radical departure from the proposals in the Bill; and he, therefore, hoped the Committee would not accept it.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 245; Noes, 151. (Division List, No. 206.)

AYES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Galloway, William Johnson

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Coates, Edward Feetham

Gardner, Ernest

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A. E.

Garfit, William

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

Coddington, Sir William

Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn

Arrol, Sir William

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Graham, Henry Robert

Austin, Sir John

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

Baird, John George Alexander

Crean, Eugene

Grenfell, William Henry

Balcarres, Lord

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Gretton, John

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Groves, James Grimble

Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Davenport, William Bromley-

Hambro, Charles Eric

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Bignold, Arthur

Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Bigwood, James

Doughty, George

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Bill, Charles

Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

Heath, James (Staffords. N.W.

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Helder, Augustus

Bond, Edward

Duke, Henry Edward

Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Bousfield, William Robert

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Hogg, Lindsay

Bull, William James

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Hope, J.F. (Sheffield. Brightside

Butcher, John George

Faber, Edmuna B. (Hants, W.)

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A. (Glasgow

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Hoult, Joseph

Carlile, William Walter

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Houston, Robert Paterson

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Fisher, William Hayes

Jameson, Majer J. Eustace

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Fison, Frederick William

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Chapman, Edward

Flower, Sir Ernest

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Charrington, Spencer

Forster, Henry William

Kerr, John

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W.

Kimber, Henry

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Knowles, Sir Lees

Mount, William Arthur

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.

Myers, William Henry

Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Newdegate, Francis A. N.

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Stock, James Henry

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N)

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Stroyan, John

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Lowe, Francis William

Pemberton, John S. G.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Percy, Earl

Tollemache, Henry James

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Pierpoint, Robert

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Pilkington, Colonel Richard

Tuff, Charles

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Valentia, Viscount

Macdona, John Cumming

Pretyman, Ernest George

Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Walker, Col. William Hall

M'Fadden, Edward

Pym, C. Guy

Welby, Lt.-Col A.C.E. (Taunton

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.

Rankin, Sir James

Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.)

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Ratcliff, R. F.

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

Majendie, James A. H.

Reid, James (Greenock)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Malcolm, Ian

Remnant, James Farquharson

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

Richards, Henry Charles

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E. (Wigt'n

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriesshire

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Robinson, Brooke

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Mesey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Wyndham-Quin, Col. W. H.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Milvain, Thomas

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Young, Samuel

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Younger, William

Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Morpeth, Viscount

Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

Morrell, George Herbert

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Morrison, James Archibald

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Dalziel, James Henry

Grant, Corrie

Atherley-Jones, L.

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

Barlow, John Emmott

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

Griffith, Ellis J.

Barron, Rowland Hirst

Delany, William

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Dobbie, Joseph

Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

Bell, Richard

Doogan, P. C.

Harcourt, Rt Hn Sir W (Monm'th

Benn, John Williams

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Harwood, George

Black, Alexander William

Dunn, Sir William

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Boland, John

Edwards, Frank

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Elibank, Master of

Higham, John Sharpe

Brigg, John

Ellice, Capt E C (S Andrw's Bghs)

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Broadhurst, Henry

Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Emmott, Alfred

Horniman, Frederick John

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Burt, Thomas

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Caldwell, James

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Joicey, Sir James

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Fenwick, Charles

Jones William(Carnarvonshire

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Jordan, Jeremiah

Cawley, Frederick

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Joyce, Michael

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Foster, Sir Waiter (Derby Co.)

Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

Gorbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

Kitson, Sir James

Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

Fuller, J. M. F.

Lambert, George

Cremer, William Randal

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Langley Batty

Crooks, William

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

868

869

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Taylor, Theodore G (Radcliffe)

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Parrott, William

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Leng, Sir John

Partington, Oswald

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Lewis, John Herbert

Paulton, James Mellor

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Loyd-George, David

Philipps, John Wynford

Tomkinson, James

Lundon, W.

Reckitt, Harold James

Toulmin, George

Lyell, Charles Henry

Reddy, M.

Ure, Alexander

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Rickett, J. Compton

Wallace, Robert

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

M'Crae, George

Roche, John

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

Runciman, Walter

Wason John Cathcart (Orkney)

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Russell, T. W.

White, George (Norfolk)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.)

Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

Whitley J. H. (Halifax)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Shackleton, David James

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Moss, Samuel

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneh)

Moulton, John Fletoher

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

Murphy, John

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

Newnes, Sir George

Slack, John Bamford

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Wood, James

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

Spear, John Ward

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

Mr. Channing and Mr.

O' Kelly, James(Rosoommon, N.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Charles Allen

O'Malley, William

Sullivan, Donal

MR. DUKEsaid he had been astonished, not to say dismayed, to hear the President of the Local Government Board assume as a fact that the quarter sessions in discharging the duties to be discharged under this Bill would act as a judicial body. Everyone conversant with the duties of quarter sessions would know that they had two separate and distinct sets of duties, one of them administrative and the other judicial. There was no difficulty in distinguishing between the administrative duties which had devolved on justices by the practice of centuries and the operation of Acts of Parliament and a different character. It was essential their judicial duties which were of quite that Parliament should decide whether the duties devolving on quarter sessions through this Bill, which was an administrative measure, should be performed by quarter sessions as a judicial or an administrative body. He submitted that these administrative duties should be performed by quarter sessions as an administrative body.
And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  LICENSING BILL [1ST ALLOTTED DAT].
  Considered in Committee
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:—
  MR. DUKE,continuing his speech, contended that if the Bill were examined it would be seen that it was impossible that it could have ever been intended that it was to be administered on judicial principles; there was no con test, and the whole matter was one of administration. There could be no judicial decisions, no parties and no dispute which required a tribunal or procedure to deal with them on judicial lines. He asked the Government to consider whether there were not some means by which they could define the powers which the justices were to exercise. If some were to be judicial let them be selected and declared to be powers to be administered judicially. But having regard to the fact that the major part of these powers were purely administrative powers, he asked the Government to make the matter clear in the Act. If they did not make it clear that the whole of the

  871
  powers were administrative and were to be exercised with the freedom with which administrative powers were exercised by administrative bodies in this country, at any rate let them declare what the judicial powers were and leave the local authority free to administer the administrative powers. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 9, after the word 'sessions,' to insert the words 'acting as an administrative body.'"—(Mr. Duke.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid so far as he could see this discussion was purely of an academic nature. There was no doubt that many of the duties to be performed were purely of an administrative character. It could be gathered from the Bill, without setting out the fact, that quarter sessions was acting as an administrative body. His hon. and learned friend was correct in saying that many of the duties of quarter sessions under this Bill would be administrative. Licensing and setting up the compensation fund were purely matters of administration, but there were other duties cast on quarter sessions by this Bill which could not be described as other than judicial. In all cases of appeal from the licensing justices and in all matters specified in the first sub-section they would act judicially. A licence-holder who was refused a renewal might appeal to quarter sessions, and there again they would have to act in a judicial capacity. The licensing authorities might report that there were too many licensed houses in the district, and in that case a licence-holder whose licence was to be extinguished had a right to appeal to quarter sessions and say, "It is quite true that you say my licence ought to be taken away but I dispute that." Such a thing as that would constitute the very case which his hon. and learned friend said would necessitate a judicial decision, inasmuch as there would be a dispute between the parties. Quarter sessions were also entitled to hear other parties interested, which would include the justices who made the order. To draw a distinction between one set of cases in which they would be acting in a judicial
  872
  capacity and another set of cases equally important, as leading to the same result, and to lay it down that in the latter they must act in a purely administrative character, would be a monstrous thing to do.
  MR. DUKEasked the Solicitor-General would the quarter sessions administer the principles of law or doctrines of equity?
  SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid they would administer both. The insertion of the words "acting as an administrative body" would leave it open to quarter sessions to say in regard to particular matters that although they had litigants and advocates before them and had to hear evidence, they, nevertheless, were not acting in a judicial capacity. The important thing was to know what duties were imposed, their nature, and how they were to be carried out. There would be no difficulty in determining, where necessary, when quarter sessions were acting judicially and when administratively.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITnoted the statements of the Solicitor-General that in accordance with the Act of 1902 the justices would still be heard upon these applications, and that in dealing with the personal and public rights involved there would be an opportunity for legal assistance, if necessary, in determining what were essentially judicial questions. He could not, however, follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman in his distinction between the administrative and judicial functions of quarter sessions. The appointment of the compensation fund provided not by the State or the public, but by the whole body of licence-holders themselves, the want of which had been one great obstacle to temperance reform, and the cessation of which, under a time limit, would, he felt as a magistrate, be a new and even greater impediment to such reform, which he heartily favoured, but for which personally he relied more upon education than upon legislation—was administrative; but the private question whether a licensee should or should not have his licence renewed, and the important public question whether the licence should or should not be renewed in the public interest owing to an excess of

  873
  licensed houses in the district, was as clearly a matter of justice and to be judicially determined by the magistrates, who had always been bound, in law, not to act merely arbitrarily, but to exercise a real judicial discretion. The insertion of the words now proposed would be restrictive of the operation of the Bill. Two great questions would have to be dealt with judicially—first: Whether a licensee ought to be deprived of his licence on public grounds; and, secondly: Whether a particular house was required or not. In the former a private, and in the latter a public interest was concerned. The calculation of the compensation might be an administrative act, but it was merely a corollary of what quarter sessions must have previously determined judicially, viz., whether or not a licence should be renewed. The determination on the report of the local justices would frequently involve very important judicial considerations. As to the Bill derogating from the power of the local justices, he believed that a formal reasoned report, which would always be before quarter sessions, would have more influence and be more difficult to displace, because the onus of displacing it would be cast upon the virtual appellant. There ought to be in the future as there had teen in the pasta judicial determination of questions which were still really to be the subject of an automatic appeal. He hoped, therefore, the Bill would not be restricted by the insertion of the Amendment, which would restrict the duty owed towards both the publican and the public, each of whom were entitled to justice, and he noted from the speech of the Solicitor-General that the practice before the magistrates at brewster sessions would be maintained intact, and also that the parties interested and the local justices would still be entitled to legal assistance on such judicial points at quarter sessions, while in the county boroughs the abolition of any appeal to the quarter sessions for the county was an unquestionable concession to a long-standing grievance. Compensation, the fund for which might well have been made more adequate, and in which alone, and not in the licence, any vested interest was created, was the corollary of the refusal to renew, was thus administrative, but there was a
  874
  previous question to be determined, renewal or non-renewal, and this was a judicial one from both points of view. But, it was contended, that the new practice would derogate from the powers and influence of the local justices. As to this, and as both a county and a borough magistrate, and a former legal practitioner in licensing cases on each side as to renewal or non-renewal and as to new licences, he respectfully but strongly differed. For, under the existing practice, the right of appeal from brewster to quarter sessions against non-renewal on; the ground of excession of number of houses was absolute and practically always exercised. And the change proposed to be made in the case of such non-renewals was really an automatic appeal. With this difference, that the local justices, who, it had been legally decided, should not be represented on the appeal except under special circumstances, who were sometimes represented and sometimes not, and who, it was understood, would still retain any right to appear, and under the Act of 1902 would also be empowered to make a written and reasoned report to quarter sessions in every case of non-renewal on public grounds of excess of number of houses; and, whether the justices were represented or not, this report would always be read and largely referred to. Now, as a magistrate, he felt that such a report from a competent Court would receive more respect than any mere ex parte advocacy, inasmuch as it would be founded on local knowledge and experience, while it would be adjudicated upon by an independent judicial tribunal. It would, of course, be treated, as all such Court reports were by appeal tribunals, with respect, while it would have the effect, which advocacy on a rehearing never could have, of casting the onus of displacing it upon the party who impeached it, a legal consideration the importance of which any magistrate or practitioner would appreciate. And this was clearly not an administrative matter, but one which he himself and other magistrates, would always seek to determine as a judicial; question and by the exercise of an impartial discretion, after hearing the justices' report, and that the parties, including the local magistrates, had to

  875
  say upon it; and surely this was no reduction of such magistrates' powers, but, so far as it was more than an automatic equivalent of the existing absolute right of appeal to quarter sessions, rather an increase of power than otherwise. But all this was essentially judicial, not merely administrative, and such being the case he must oppose the Amendment of his hon. friend.
  SIR JAMES WOODHOUSEsupported the Amendment, which he submitted clearly declared the law as laid down by the highest tribunals in the land—viz., that the determination of the question of the renewal of a licence, on the ground of non-requirement, was an administrative and not a judicial act. The only reason which had been avowed for vesting this duty in quarter sessions was that they were to dispense the compensation fund, but as an administrative and not as a judicial duty, so that no ground had been alleged for turning the tribunal of quarter sessions from an administrative into a judicial body in that sense. The report was to be sent from the licensing justices to the quarter sessions, not as a Court of Appeal, but as an authority who were to deal with it as an originating and determining body; and he submitted that there was a broad distinction between quarter sessions hearing an appeal, and determining a matter as an originating body with sole power to decide. The moment the question was considered in connection with a county borough the absurdity of the position became apparent. In county boroughs the whole body of justices,
  having no power to determine the matter themselves, would send it to a committee of their own members to decide finally, so that, according to the Solicitor-General, the whole body would be an administrative body, while the committee of the larger body would be a judicial body. Anybody who had had experience of the working of the licensing law would be compelled to agree with the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth.
  MR. H. C. RICHARDSagreed that there were times when quarter sessions had to act in an administrative capacity, but he thought the case which had been put forward demonstrated that when it was a question of dealing with the report of a committee, consisting practically of a minority of the magistrates of a county borough, they were bound to act in a judicial capacity. The hon. and learned Member for Plymouth had at any rate made out a case for a clear definition, although possibly the present was not the occasion upon which the Solicitor-General would prefer to give it. Quarter sessions had to determine the number of licences to be sacrificed, and they could not be said to be acting in a strictly judicial capacity until they had actually singled out the individual victims, and then every person interested ought, to be heard.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 132; Noes, 124. (Division List No. 207.)

  AYES.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Corbett. T. L. (Down, North)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Bell, Richard

  Cremer, William Randal

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Benn, John Williams

  Crombie, John William

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Black, Alexander William

  Crooks. William

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Boland, John

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Grant, Corrie

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Cullinan, J.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Brigg, John

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Harwood, George

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Davies. M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Delany, William

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Burns, John

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Burt, Thomas

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Caldwell, James

  Douglas. Charles M. (Lanark)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Edwards, Frank

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Ellice, Capt. E C(S. Andrw's Bghs

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan, W.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Doherty, William

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Ridcliffe)

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lambert, George

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Langley, Batty

  Parrott, William

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, Gowe)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid Cornwall)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Tomkinson, James

  Leese Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Toulmin, George

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Reddy, M.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Leng, Sir John

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Wallace, Robert

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Roberts, John N. (Denbighs.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lundon, W.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roche, John

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Runciman, Walter

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Russell, T. W.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  M'Crae, George

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Mansfield, Horace Kendall

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Wood, James

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Sheehy, David

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Slack, John Bamford

  TELLERS FOE THE AYES—

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Mr. Duke and Sir James

  Moss, Samuel

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Woodhouse.

  Newnes, Sir George

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Crean, Eugene

  Helder, Augustus

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hope J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Austin, Sir John

  Davies Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouss

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Doughty, George

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Kerr, John

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Bigwood, James

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks. N.R

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Bond, Edward

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Forster, Henry William

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gardner, Ernest

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Bull, William James

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Butcher, John George

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Gretton, John

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A. (Wore.

  Groves, James Grimble

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Chapman, Edward

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E (Wigt'n

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E.

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  878

  879

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Talbot, Lord. E. (Chichester)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Renwick, George,

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tuff, Charles

  Myers, William Henry

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sheffield

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  O'Dowd, John

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Percy, Earl

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Smith H.C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Spear, John Ward

  Young, Samuel

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Younger, William

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Stock, James Henry

  TELLERS FOE THE NOES—

  Pym, C. Guy

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Ratcliff, R, F.

  Stroyan, John

  and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHmoved to leave out the words "instead of" and insert "sitting with." According to the Bill the justices of the licensing district would have the position of a committee against whom there would be an appeal to quarter sessions. It might happen that the licensing justices declared by a large majority against a renewal, and their decision might be reversed by quarter sessions by a bare majority, and his object in providing that licensing justices should sit with quarter sessions upon the hearing of the appeal, was that the authorities having local knowledge should also have a voice in determining the question. He trusted that the Solicitor-General would, at any rate, be able to accept the substance of his Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 9, to lea e out the words 'instead of.' and insert the words 'sitting with.'"—(Mr. Ellis Griffith.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid he could not accept the Amendment; it would be absolutely impossible that the justices of
  every licensing district should sit at quarter sessions. Licensing justices would, in fact, have great influence, for they would have the initiating power to bring about the withdrawal of a licence and quarter sessions would not. That a decision by quarter sessions might be given by a small majority was true, and the same thing happened in the High Court; he had recent experience of a decision being upset in the House of Lords by a majority of one. That had to be accepted and an exception could not be made in a case of this kind. The hon. and learned Member said that the licensing justices would have no voice in the matter; but he wished to point out that they would have a great voice because quarter sessions would have no initiative, and the licensing justices would have to select those licences which they thought ought not to be renewed. Therefore it was not quite accurate to say that they had no voice, and his hon. and learned friend would therefore see that the matter was not really so bad as he had made out.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 210; Noes, 128. (Division List No. 208.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Atkinson, Rt. Hoc. John

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Austin, Sir John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitsRoy

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Groves, James Grimble

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Bigwood, James

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Bill, Charles

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  O'Dowd, John

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bond, Edward

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Boushfield, William Robert

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Percy, Earl

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Helder, Augustus

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bull, William James

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hobhouse, Rt Hn H (Somers't, E

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Butcher, John George

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Pym, C. Guy

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Renwick, George

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Chapman, Edward

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Kerr, John

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Crean, Eugene

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Samuel, Sir Harry S. (Limehouse

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Spear, John Ward

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lowe, Francis William

  Stock, James Henry

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Doughty, George

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stroyan, John

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh, W

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Tuff, Charles

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Fison, Frederick William

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E (Wigt'n

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Forster, Henry William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Calloway, William Johnson

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W.H. (Yorks.)

  Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Young, Samuel

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Younger, William

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

  TELLERS FOE THE AYES—Sir

  Gretton, John

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Myers, William Henry

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Boland, John

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bell, Richard

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Benn, John Williams

  Brigg, John

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Black, Alexander William

  Broadhurst, Henry

  882

  883

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Roche, John

  Burns, John

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Burt, Thomas

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Runciman, Walter

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Russell, T. W.

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Joyce, Michael

  Shackleton, David James

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lambert, George

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Langley, Batty

  Slack, John Bamford

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Crombie, John William

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Sullivan, Donal

  Crooks, William

  Leng, Sir John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Lyell, Charles Henry-

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Delany, William

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Tomkinson, James

  Dobbie, Joseph

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Toulmin, George

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Crae, George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Wallace, Robert

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Walton, Jn. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Ellice, Capt E.C (S Andrw's Bghs

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Fenwick, Charles

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Doherty, William

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Wood, James

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Malley, William

  Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Huddersf'd

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Parrott, William

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Grant, Corrie

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Ellis Griffith and Mr. Ed-

  Harwood, George

  Reddy, M.

  wards.

  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONmoved to leave out the word "but" in line 10, and to insert the word "and" with the object of ensuring that there should be a sufficient reduction of licences under the Bill and also to ensure that the public, to some extent, would get value for the rights which, in the opinion of many, they were called upon to relinquish under the Bill. The Solicitor-General informed the Committee yesterday that some of the Amendments were being moved in a perfunctory manner without sufficient reasons being given in their support. He was afraid that he would now be open to the same charge, because the point raised by the Amendment was a very large one. The reproach did not come very well from those who had taken steps to secure that it would be impossible to reason on many of the greater issues raised by this Bill. If time permitted, he believed a strong
  884
  case could be made out for the Amendment he now proposed. In introducing the Bill, the Home Secretary said its object was the reduction of licences. The right hon. Gentleman said that was a good thing. Well, if this reduction was so necessary, why was it not to be compulsory? The impression of the Prime Minister was that the justices had been consumed with a desire to reduce licences unnecessarily throughout the country. His own experience was very different. He believed that the desire for conferring licences was, in many instances, a great deal keener than the desire to restrict them. The licensing authorities which had been least inclined to reduce licences had been quarter sessions. They might take as an example a division of the county to which he belonged. In the Island of Lewis the local justices had over and over again refused to renew licences, and the licences had always been restored

  885
  by quarter sessions. He saw little security under this Bill of any large, general, or sufficient reduction of licences. Indeed, it offered obstacles to the reduction of licences, because many licences, which had no value at present, would be given a value, and the valuation scheme, by which it was proposed to make the value of licences as they stood at the passing of the Bill the basis of compensation, was, in his opinion, largely delusive. It would be found that they were raising, under this Bill, many financial obstacles to the reduction of licences. To make the reduction effective, he submitted that it should be compulsory. He did not regard the reduction of licences as the most essential branch of temperance reform. He looked upon the provision of counter attractions, which were wholly unprovided for in this Bill, and the maintenance of the control of the justices, as far more important than the mere reduction of licences, which to a large extent would be made more difficult under this Bill than it was now. There could be no difficulty in providing compulsory power under the Bill, because the hon. Baronet the Member for Northwest Manchester, Lord Peel, and others suggested a scheme by which compulsion could be effected, and they recorded in the Minority Report that a great reduction of licences was a matter of the first importance, and that the redistribution of licensed houses should be safeguarded by a statutory maximum of say one on-licensed house to every 750 persons in a town population, and every 400 in a country population. Their view was that in seven years the number of on-licences should be reduced to that figure in England, and within five years in Scotland. The hon. Baronet knew that the distribution of licences in the North was much more approximate to this standard than it was in England. He wished the hon. Baronet had himself raised this point, and all the more because, although they had heard a great deal as to the support moderate men would be able to give to temperance reform, the course of this debate had shown how utterly ineffective their support had been in the discussions on the Bill. The object of the hon. Baronet was that at the end of seven years in England and five years
  886
  in Scotland, the field should be left clear for legislative experiments by Parliament in the way of providing for the elimination of the element of profit in the liquor traffic, or any other method by which the liquor traffic could be more effectively controlled than at present. Besides that there should be absolute freedom for local communities to control the liquor traffic, either through local option or any other effective system of administration. Judging from his experience of the working of the present system he believed this Bill would form an effective check to the development of temperance reform schemes in the direction he had indicated. He believed that a compulsory reduction of licences would in some degree be a mitigation of the evils which would follow the passing of the Bill, and that it would be some security for leaving the way open for future experiments. It would also secure that the public would not have to pay a great deal more than they ought to. What the public were losing through this Bill was the rights in the monopoly which had been created by the public. That constituted to his mind confiscation of public property. He moved his Amendment, and would leave it to the judgment of the House.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 10, to leave out the word 'but,' and insert the word 'and.'"—(Mr. Munro Ferguson.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'but' stand part of the clause.'"
  SIR EDWARD CARSONsaid that the Amendment put from the Chair had no relation to the important question raised by the hon. Member opposite. The hon. Member had spoken on many points of great public importance, and had said that under this Bill the public were losing the benefit of a monopoly which belonged to them. If that were so, all he could say was that the public had been a very long time in trying to regain that monopoly. In his view the public would have a very much better chance of securing that monopoly on a proper basis when this Bill was passed, because it was practically admitted that during the last fifty or sixty years no progress had been made in the reduction of public-houses at

  887
  all. The object of the Amendment was to lay down a fixed proportion of public-houses to population in every district in the country, and to do so in general terms. That was impossible, because the requirements of every district were absolutely different from those of other districts, and the hon. Member had the Report of the Commission against him. It appeared that the hon. Member also wished, in laying down his arbitrary statutory maximum or minimum, to provide an unlimited amount of compensation. His principle might be all very well if they were dealing with public funds, but was quite out of place when they were calling on the trade itself to supply the money for the insurance. He entirely disputed the suggestion that licences which had no value now would acquire a value by the passage of this Bill. They had put the clearest possible language into the Bill to prevent that.
  MR. MARKHAMsaid that according to a trade paper no one doubted that those who would have to pay this tax were the consumers of liquor.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid that the complaint of the hon. Member was that in this Bill no provision was made for what he spoke of as counter attractions to the public-house, and he seemed to regard that as of more importance than the reduction of licences. He himself had always held that view, and had preached it in vain to hon. Gentlemen opposite. When the hon. Member for Wolverhampton introduced his Parish Councils Bill he moved an Amendment that parish councils should have the power to provide parish rooms which would be a counter attraction to the public-houses, but that Amendment was refused. The object of the Amend-
  ment, as he gathered, was to secure a compulsory reduction in the number of licences. He himself had put on the Paper an Amendment with the object of making it the duty of magistrates to give attention to the number of public-houses in proportion to the requirements of the population. He hoped that the Government would give their attention to this matter, and would see whether they could not insert in the Bill some provision in the direction suggested in his Amendment.
  MR. WHITTAKERsaid that if they were to pass a compensation scheme they should secure some substantial reduction of licences. But under the Bill there was no guarantee that there would be any reduction anywhere. It would be optional for the local justices to make a recommendation, optional for quarter sessions to accept the recommendation, and optional for quarter sessions to raise a fund. The object of this Amendment was to make it certain that there would be a reduction if the on-licences exceeded a certain number. The Amendment suggested a reasonable number in proportion to the population. In order to deal with the case of London it would be easy to institute a special class of licences for hotels, so that the ordinary drinking bar should be limited to some definite proportion. It was said that if this Amendment were adopted there would be an unlimited levy. There ought to been unlimited levy. There ought to be power to make a levy in order to raise whatever amount of money was necessary I to make the reduction that was deemed necessary.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 264; Noes, 167. (Division List No. 209.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bond, Edward

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F (Middlesex

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds)

  Brassey, Albert

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Austin, Sir John

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bignold, Arthur

  Bull, William James

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bigwood, James

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bill, Charles

  Butcher, John George

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Myers, William Henry

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway,N.)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hobhouse,Rt.Hn H(Somers't,E

  O'Dowd, John

  Chamberlain, Rt.Hn J. A(Wore.

  Hogg. Lindsay

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield,Brightside

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Chapman, Edward

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hoult, Joseph

  Peel, Hn.Wm.Robert Wellesley

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Howard, Jn.(Kent, Faversham

  Percy, Earl

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Craig, CharlesCurtis( Antrim,S.)

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward.

  Crean, Eugene

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Kerr, John

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Cross,Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Keswick, William

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Kimber, Henry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Renwick, George

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Davies,Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Dimsdale, Rt.Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Doughty, George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Bristol,S.)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Dyke, Rt.Hn.Sir William Hart

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Samuel, Sir Harry S.(Limehouse

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants.,W.)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Fison, Frederick William

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Smith, H. C(North'mb. Tyneside

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Smith James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W.

  Spear, John Ward

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stanley, Hn.Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop W. (Sligo, North)

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

  Garfit, William

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Gordon, Hn.J.E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stock, James Henry

  Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'lets)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc)

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H.E.(Wigt'n

  Stroyan, John

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Healey

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chiehester)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Greene, W.Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Tuff, Charles

  Gretton, John

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Groves, James Grimble

  Moore, William

  Vincent,Col.SirC.E.H.(Sheffield

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morgan David J.(Walthamstow

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)

  Harris, Dr. Fredk.R. (Dulwich)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Murray,Rt.Hn.A.Graham(Bute

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  890

  891

  Whiteley,H.(Ashton und.Lyne)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Wilson-Todd,Sir W.H.(Yorks.)

  Young, Samuel

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Younger, William

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Price, Robert John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Hain, Edward

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Allen, Charles P.

  Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

  Reddy, M.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harwood, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rigg, Richard

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Benn, John Williams

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Black, Alexander William

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Roche, John

  Boland, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Brigg, John

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Runciman, Walter

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Russell, T. W.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Jones William (Carnarvonshire

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight

  Burns, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Shackleton, David James

  Burt, Thomas

  Joyce, Michael

  Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)

  Caldwell, James

  Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lambert, George

  Slack, John Bamford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Langley, Batty

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal,W.)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cremer, William Randal

  Long, Sir John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Crombie, John William

  Levy, Maurice

  Tennant, Harold John

  Crooks, William

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cullman, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Thomas, J.A(Glamorgan,Gower

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, M.Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Toulmin, George

  Delany, William

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Denny, Colonel

  M'Crae, George

  Ure, Alexander

  Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wallace, Robert

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Moss, Samuel

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Edwards, Frank

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Elliee,Capt.EC(S.Andrw's Bghs

  Murphy, John

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary,Mid

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  O'Doherty, William

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  O'Malley, William

  Wood, James

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Woodhouse, Sir JT.(Huddersf'd

  Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

  Parrott, William

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Grant, Corrie

  Paulton, James Mellor

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Mr. Munro Ferguson and

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Mr. Herbert Lewis.

  MR. ASQUITH: The Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. and learned friend the Member for Anglesey, and which I propose now to
  892
  move, raises a question of interest and importance second to none in the whole Bill; it raises, in fact, the whole question of compensation. The Committee, I am

  893
  sure, will not be surprised to hear that in submitting it I am embarrassed by the conditions under which I am compelled to speak. It is not as though I or anyone in this House was in the least degree entitled to complain of the time which has been occupied last night and this evening by previous Amendments. Point after point of the most serious importance has been barely and boldly stated to the House, and has been at once divided upon, without the advantage which, in Committee at any rate, we are accustomed to derive from the free play of informal, but not less useful, arguments across the floor of the House. A severe and, as some of my hon. friends would say, excessive self-restraint has been exercised. I am not at all sure that the results which have been achieved will be held to warrant its repetition. But at any rate, it is perfectly true that there has been no waste of time, no excess of talk, and no diversion of the attention of the House from serious and important to trivial and frivolous points. But when I approach this Amendment I cannot discuss it without considering its relation to, and its effect upon the remainder of this clause. What is the clause we are discussing? It contains twenty-two lines, of which we have discussed six. Upon the Order Paper at this moment there stand fifteen pages of Amendments, which I will not say remain for discussion, but
  which are to be ignored and passed aside without any discussion at all. They embrace some of the most important features of this Bill. But how am I, in the five minutes which are still to elapse before the guillotine falls, to say anything really useful or fruitful about that which is the vital and essential principle of this Bill? The provision in the lines which I have moved to omit, the provision which in future will restrain all power to refuse or reduce licences in conformity with the limited dimensions of a fund which will be small and exiguous, and in some parts of the country, may not exist at all —this proposal, this far-reaching, deep-seated, and unprecedented revolution in the whole of our law of licensing is to pass now from this Committee unamended and even undiscussed. The procedure of the House of Commons is reduced to a farce. We are taking part in a parody of debate, and making ourselves accomplices in a caricature of the forms, and a betrayal of the spirit of Parliamentary institutions.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 10, to leave out from the world 'but' to the end of line 12."—(Mr. Asquith.)
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 279; Noes, 210. (Division List No 210.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Chapman, Edward

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bignold, Arthur

  Charrington, Spencer

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bigwood, James

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bill, Charles

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Arnold-Forstcr,Rt,Hn.Hugh O.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bond, Edward

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hn.Sir H.

  Bowles, Lt.-Col.H.F.(Middlesex

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Austin, Sir John

  Brassey, Albert

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Brodrick, Rt, Hon. St. John

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Brown, Sir Alex. H.(Shropsh-)

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bull, William James

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Butcher, John George

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Carlile, William Walter

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Balfour, Rt, Hn. GeraldW(Leeds

  Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbyshire

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A.(Wore.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Keswick, William

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Kimber, Henry

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Dixon-Hartland,SirFred Dixon

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Renwick, George

  Doughty, George

  Lambton, Hon.Frederick Wm.

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Ridley, S.Forde'(Bethnal Green

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lawson JohnGrant(Yorks.N.R

  Robinson, Brooke

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lee,Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol,S)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Samuel,SirHarry S. (Limehouse

  Fison, Frederick William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone,W.)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Macdona, John dimming

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Forster, Henry William

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick,S.W.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Smith,H.C(North'mb.Tyneside

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Iver,SirLewis(Edinburgh,W.

  Spear, John Ward

  Garfit, William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)

  Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin&Nairn

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stanley, Rt.Hn.Lord (Lancs.)

  Gordon,Maj.Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Gore, Hn. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Maxwell, Rt Hn.SirH.E(Wigt'n

  Stock, James Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriesshire

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Stroyan, John

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth

  Gretton, John

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Groves, James Grimble

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Moore, William

  Tuff, Charles

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. F. H(Sheffield

  Harris, F. Leverton(Tynem'th)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Warde, Colonel C.E.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A.Graham(Bute

  Welby, Lt. Col.A.C.E.(Taunton

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Welby, SirCharlesG.E.(Notts.

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Myers, William Henry

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und.Lyne

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hobhouse,Rt Hn H.(Somers't,E

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.)

  Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Wilson-Todd, SirW.H.(Yorks.)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Percy, Earl

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Howard, J. (Kent Faversham

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Jameson, Major G. Eustace

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Young, Samuel

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Younger, William

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

  Pym, C. Guy

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop

  Rankin, Sir James

  and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Kerr, John

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  896

  897

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Partington, Oswald

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Allen, Charles P.

  Grant, Corrie

  Perks, Robert William

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Price, Robert John

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hain, Edward

  Priestley, Arthur

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Rea, Mussell

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Harwood, George

  Reddy, M.

  Bell, Richard

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Benn, John Williams

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Black, Alexander William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Rigg, Richard

  Boland, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Brigg, John

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Brown, GeorgeM.( Edinburgh)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roche, John

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Mortley)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Runciman, Walter

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Russell, T. W.

  Burns, John

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, William, Carnarvonshire

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B (Isle of Wight)

  Caldwell, James

  Joyce, Michael

  Shackleton, David James

  Cameron, Robert

  Kennedy, Vincent P. (Cavan,W.)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Campbell, John (Armagh,S.)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lambert, George

  Sheehy, David

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Langley, Batty

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Slack, John Bamford

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark

  Leamy, Edmund

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Crean, Eugene

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Crombie, John William

  Leng, Sir John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Crooks, William

  Levy, Maurice

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cullinan, J.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Tennant, Harold John

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lundon, W.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Delany, William

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, J A (GlamorganGower

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Tillet, Louis John

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Tomkinson, James

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Crae, George

  Toulmin, (George

  Dobbie, Joseph

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Ure, Alexander

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Wallace, Robert

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Walton, JohnLawson(Leeds,S.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Edwards, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Elibank, Master of

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Wason John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Ellice,Capt. EE(S.Andrw'sBghs

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.).

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans,Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Murphy, John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wood, James

  Field, William

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Woodhouse,Sir J.T (Huddersf'd

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  O' Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Doherty, William

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Dowd, John

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  O'Malley, William

  William M'Arthur.

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Parrott, William

  Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

  And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 5th July, successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted Business to be concluded on the first allotted Day.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 13, after the word 'an,' to insert the word 'existing.'—(Mr. Secretary A hers-Douglas.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 16, after the word 'district,' to insert the words 'on the consideration by them, in accordance with the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1902, of applications for the renewal of licences.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 17, after the word 'particular,' to insert the word 'existing.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 19, after the word 'an,' to insert the word "existing."—(Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.)
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 23, after the word 'premises,' to insert the words 'and unless it appears to quarter sessions unnecessary, any other persons appearing to them to be interested in the question of the renewal of the licence of those premises.'"—(Mr. Secretary Akers Donglas).
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The Committee divided; Ayes 285; Noes, 198. (Division List No. 211.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Faber, Edmund B.( Hants, W.)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Wore.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Fergusson,Rt. Hn.Sir J. (Manc'r

  Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn. Hugh O

  Chapman, Edward

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Arrol, Sir William

  Charrington, Spencer

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Austin, Sir John

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Fison, Frederick William

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Fitzroy, Hn.Edward Algernon

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Balcarres, Lord

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Forster, Henry William

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Balfour,Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cross,Herb, Shepherd (Bolton)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Garfit, William

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Gordon, Hn J.E.(Elgin&Nairn)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Gordon,Maj Evans (T'rH'mlet

  Bignold, Arthur

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gore, Hn. S. F.Ormsby- (Line.)

  Bigwood, James

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bill, Charles

  Davies, SirHoratio D.(Chatham

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Denny, Colonel

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bond, Edward

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny,N.)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Bowles, Lt.-Col.H.F.(Middlesex

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Brassey, Albert

  Dimsdale,Rt.Hn.Sir Joseph C.

  Gretton, John

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Dixon-Hartlaud,SirFred Dixon

  Groves, James Grimble

  Bull, William James

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Burdett-Couts, W.

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Hambro, Charles Erie

  Butcher, John George

  Doughty, George

  Hardy,Laurence(Kent Ashford

  Carlile, William Walter

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R. (Dulwich)

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Massey-Mainwairing,Hn. W. F

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir HE (Wigt'n

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Maxwell W.J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Sackville,Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Holder, Augustus

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Henderson,Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Samuel,Sir HarryS,(Limehouse

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Milvain, Thomas

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Montagu, G.(Huntingdon)

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hauls.)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Hoult, Joseph

  Moore, William

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Smith, HC (North'mb,Tyneside

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Spear, John Ward

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Mount, William Arthur

  Stanley,Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.)

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J.M'Taggart

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Murray, Rt Hn. A.Graham (Bute

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Murray,Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stock, James Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. F. (Denbigh)

  Myers, William Henry

  Stroyan, John

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Kerr, John

  Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Keswick, William

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ

  Kimber, Henry

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Tuff, Charles

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Percy, Earl

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks. N.R.

  Pierpoint. Robert

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.EH (Sheffield

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Long, Col. Chafe. W.(Evesham

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol S.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Lowe, Francis William

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Williams, Colonel Lt. (Dorset)

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon, Alfred

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Bine

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Renwick, George

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart-

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  Robertson, Herb. (Hackney)

  Young, Samuel

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Younger, William

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Maejndie, James A. H.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kayo

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Malcolm, Ian

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Alexander Acland - Hood

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brigg, John

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Allen, Charles P.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brown, George M.(Edinburgh)

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Cremer, William Randal

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Crombie, John William

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Crooks, William

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Burns, John

  Cullinan, J.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Burt, Thomas

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Caldwell, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Bell, Richard

  Cameron, Robert

  Davies,M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Benn, John Williams

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Delany, William

  Black, Alexander William

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Boland, John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Dobbie, Joseph

  902

  903

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Dunn, Sir William

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Runciman, Walter

  Edwards, Prank

  Leamy, Edmund

  Russell, T. W.

  Elibank, Master of

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Ellice,CaptE.C(S.Andrw'sBghs

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Leng, Sir John

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(IsleofWight

  Emmott, Alfred

  Levy, Maurice

  Shackleton, David James

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Evans,Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Lloyd-George, David

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Lough, Thomas

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lundon, W.

  Sheehy, David

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Fenwick, Charles

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Slack, John Bamford

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  M'Crae, George

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Sullivan, Donal

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Mooney, John J.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Go ldard, Daniel Ford

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen), E.

  Grant, Corrie

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Girffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan,Gower

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Murphy, John

  Tillet, Louis John

  Ham, Edward

  Newnes, Sir George

  Tomkinson, James

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard R.

  Norton, Capt, Cecil William

  Toulmin, George

  Harcourt, Lewis V (Rossendale

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Harwood, George

  O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Ure, Alexander

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Doherty, William

  Wallace, Robert

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Dowd, John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Malley, William

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney)

  Hope, J. Deans (Fife, West)

  Parrott, William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Partington, Oswald

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Humphreys-Owens, Arthur C.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hutchinson, Dr. Chas. Fredk.

  Perks, Robert William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk.Mid.)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Jones,DavidBrynmor (Swansea

  Rea, Russell

  Wood, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudd'rsfi'd

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Reddy, N.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Joyce, Michael

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan, W.

  Rigg, Richard

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  William M'Arthur

  Lambert, George

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Langley, Batty

  Roche, John

  Question, "That the Amendment be made," put, and agreed to.

  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said he wished to ask on a point of order whether those Members of the House who were personally and pecuniarily interested in the result of the division were entitled to vote.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The Rule of the House has always been that any Member who has a direct pecuniary interest is liable to have his vote struck off. I think I have correctly stated the Rule.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLasked, as a matter of practice, in order to
  904
  avoid complications and difficulties in the future, at what time should objection be taken to the votes of Members who had a direct personal pecuniary interest? The proper manner, he knew, would be to take objection immediately after the division, but there were so many gentlemen involved that they could not immediately bring all the votes that should be challenged to the notice of the House. Could they save themselves by taking formal exception now and giving notice that when the division list was printed they would bring the question before the House?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The practice has always been to call the attention of the House to the matter directly the division is taken.
  Question put, "That Clause 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 281; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 212.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Hozier, HonJamesHenryCecil

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Hinsdale, Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph C.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Arnold-Forster,Rt. Hn.HughO.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Doogan, R. C.

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH.

  Dorington, Rt.Hon. Sir John E.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.( Denbigh)

  Austin, Sir John

  Doughty, George

  Kenyon-Slaney,Col. W.(Salop.

  Bagot, Capt. Joseeline FitzRoy

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Kerr, John

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Keswick, William

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Kimber, Henry

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Balcarres, Lord

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Laurie, Liet.-General

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Fergusson, Rt.HnSirJ.(Mane'r

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Balfour,Rt.Hn.Gerald W.(Leeds

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lawson, JohnGrant( Yorks. N. R

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Chritsch.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants,Fareham

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Hartley, Sir George C. T.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Fitzroy, Hon.Edward Algernon

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Bignold, Arthur

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Bristol, S.

  Bigwood, James

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Bill, Charles

  Forster, Henry William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W.

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Bond, Edward

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Bowles, Lt.-Col. H.F.(Middlesex

  Garfit, William

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Brassey, Albert

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gordon, Hn. J.E.(Elgin&Nairn

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby (Line.)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Bull, William James

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  M'Iver, SirLewis( Edinburgh,W

  Butcher, John George

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Malcolm, Ian

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Gretton, John

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H.E(Wigt'n

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Maxwell, W.J.H(Dumfriesshire

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Wore.

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hardy, Laurence( Kent, Ashford

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M

  Chapman, Edward

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Charrington, Spencer

  Harris, F.Leverton(Tynemouth

  Milvain, Thomas

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Harris, Dr. Fredk. R.(Dulwieh)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Montagu, Hn. J.Scott (Hants.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Heath, James (Staffords.,N.W.)

  Moore, William

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Morgan, David J.( Walthamstow

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Helder, Augustus

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Mount, William Arthur

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Murray,Rt Hn A.Graham( Bute

  Gust, Henry John C.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hoult, Joseph

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Myers, William Henry

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Howard, John(KentFaversham

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Tuff, Charles

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Pease, HerbertPike( Darlington

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Vincent,Col Sir C.E.H(Sheffield

  Peel, Hn.Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Vincent, Sir Eagar (Exeter)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Samuel,Sir HarryS.(Limehouse

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Perey, Earl

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

  Welby, Lt.-Col.A.C.E(Tauhton

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund Lyne

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Smith,H.C.(North' mb.Tyneside

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Pym, C. Guy

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Spear, John Ward

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk

  Wilson, A.Stanley (York,E.R.)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Wilson-Todd, SirW.H.(Yorks)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lanes.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Stewart, SirMark J.M'Taggart

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Renshaw, Sir Charles Pine

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Renwick, George

  Stock, James Henry

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Young, Samuel

  Ridley, S. Forde(BethnalGreen

  Stroyan, John

  Younger, William

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir

  Robinson, Brooke

  Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ.

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kayo

  Tollemache, Henry James

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Delany, William

  Hutchinson, Dr.CharlesFredk.

  Allen, Charles P.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Asquith,Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Joicey, Sir James

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Dunn, Sir William

  Jones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Edwards, Frank

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Elibank, Master of

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Elhco,CaptE.C.(StAndrw'sBghs

  Joyce, Michael

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Kennedy, Vincent P.(Cavan,W

  Bell, Richard

  Emmott, Alfred

  Kilbride, Denis

  Benn, John Williams

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Kitson, Sir James

  Black, Alexander William

  Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone

  Lambert, George

  Boland, John

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Langley, Batty

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Brigg, John

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Fenwick, Charles

  Leese, Sir Joseph F(Accrington

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Leng, Sir John

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Levy, Maurice

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Burns, John

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Burt, Thomas

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Caldwell, James

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Lundon, W.

  Cameron, Robert

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Grant, Corrie

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Cawley, Frederick

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Crae, George

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hain, Edward

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark)

  Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Cremer, William Randal

  Harwood, George

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Crombie, John William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Crooks, William

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Moss, Samuel

  Cullman, J

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Murphy, John

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Newnes, Sir George

  908

  909

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Rose, Charles Day

  Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan,Gower

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Runciman, Walter

  Tillet, Louis John

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid.

  Russell, T. W.

  Tomkinson, James

  O'Doherty, William

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  O'Dowd, John

  Schwann, Charles R.

  Ure, Alexander

  O'Malley, William

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight

  Wallace, Robert

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Shackleton, David James

  Walton, John Lawson(Leeds,S.)

  Parrott, William

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Partington, Oswald

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)

  Perks, Robert William

  Sheehy, David

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Price, Robert John

  Slack, John Bamford

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Priestley, Arthur

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Rea, Russell

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk,Mid.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Reddy, M.

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip James

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Riekett, J. Compton

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Wood, James

  Rigg, Richard

  Sullivan, Donal

  Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (Hudd'rsfi'd

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radeliffe)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr

  Roche, John

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Herbert Gladstone and Mr.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  William M'Arthur.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Mr. Chairman, I desire to call your attention to the fact that in the last division a number of Members voted in contravention of a Standing Order of the House. I refer to Order No. 143 which precribes that—
  "A Member may not vote on any question in which he has a direct pecuniary interest."
  I am going to submit to you the names of several Members who have a direct pecuniary interest in the subject-matter of the last division, and who voted in support of that interest. There have been two divisions on the question of compensation—one at eleven o'clock and the other the last division. In the first the majority was sixty-nine, and of those sixty-three had a direct pecuniary interest in the subject. I will pick out one or two instances and ask the judgment of the House upon them. I will take first the case of the hon. Member for South Salford. I submit that that hon. Member has a direct pecuniary interest in the vote he has recorded; it was a vote in favour of giving compensation for the first time in respect of licences disallowed. Under the present law he would receive no compensation in respect of houses the licences of which were refuse renewal by the magistrates. The moment this Bill becomes law it will add enormously to the value of his property; it will appreciate the value of the brewery shares he holds; and in respect of any houses which, in future, are disallowed he will receive a direct pecuniary advantage. In the circumstances, I submit that the
  910
  vote of the hon. Member should be disallowed, and I move that the vote of the hon. Member for South Salford in the last division be disallowed on the ground that he had a direct pecuniary interest in the vote which he recorded.
  MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no Standing Order that is applicable to the case. The book from which the hon. Member has quoted is not the Standing Orders, although I have no doubt that they are correctly stated in that book. The last ruling that I can find on the subject occurred on the Local Government (Ireland) Bill, 1898, when Mr. Speaker ruled as follows —
  "The Rule of the House is well understood. There must be a direct pecuniary interest of a private and particular nature, and not of a public and general nature; and where the question before the House is of a public and general nature, and incidentally involves the pecuniary interests, of a class which includes Members of the House, they are not prevented by the Rules of the House from voting.
  Therefore I do not think the Motion of the hon. Member would be in order.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I understand that Mr. Speaker's ruling was that where the pecuniary advantage was incidental the general rule would not apply. I submit, however, that here the advantage is not incidental, but that the whole object and purpose of this Bill and this clause is to confer a direct pecuniary interest upon this class, and, as a matter of fact, does confer it. Therefore, I submit, this case comes within the Standing Order.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I know that view is taken by the hon. Member and by a great many other hon. Members, but I think he will admit that it is not the universal view. [OPPOSITION cries of "It ought to be left to the House."] There is also this to be said, that it is perfectly possible that the hon. Member's financial position will not be affected in any way. [OPPOSITION cries of "Let him say whether or not it is."] Will hon. Members kindly allow me to finish the sentence? Supposing that none of the licences in which he is interested are affected. The interest of the hon. Member is not of that direct personal character to which the ruling of Mr. Speaker refers.
  MR. DALZIEL: May I call your attention to the Rule which says—
  "The Member whose vote is questioned by such a Motion may rise in his place to explain his position."
  THE CHAIRMAN: I have already said that for the reasons I have given I do not think such a Motion as that which has been suggested can be properly moved.
  MR. THOMAS SHAW: As I understand, you have put the supposition to the Committee that the interest of the hon. Member may not be affected. I respectfully submit to you, Sir, that we should have that as a matter of fact, or otherwise, stated by the hon. Member.
  MR. EMMOTT: May I quote a specific case? I believe it is the fact that the hon. Member had negotiations with the justices of Manchester in regard to certain houses in which he is interested and an arrangement had been practically come to whereby the licences of those houses were to be surrendered. But owing to the interview between the Prime Minister and the brewers a year ago—I think the hon. Member's own avowal has acknowledged that—those negotiations fell through. Can it, therefore, be argued after that that the hon. Member is not directly interested.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I do not know anything about the facts referred to by the hon. Member. I base myself upon
  912
  the ruling of Mr. Speaker in the case to which I have referred
  '….where the question. … is of a public and general nature—"
  I think it is so in this case—["No."]—
  "and incidently involves the pecuniary interest of a class which includes Members of the House they are not prevented by the Rules of the House from voting."
  MR. WHITTAKER: On the point of order may I submit that this is not a measure of a public nature; it does not incidentally include a class. It refers entirely to a class, and only to that class.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I cannot accept the view of the hon. Member that this Bill does not deal with matters of a public nature.
  MR. MOULTON: May I point out that the rule begins by saying, "A Member may not vote on any question in which he has a pecuniary interest"?
  THE CHAIRMAN: What Rule is that?
  MR. MOULTON: Rule 143. Surely it is a question of fact whether or not the Member whose vote is challenged has a direct pecuniary interest. May I suggest that it is not for you, Sir, as Chairman of Committees, to be, in your official character, so well-acquainted with his private affairs as to be able to pronounce whether a Member has or has not a direct pecuniary interest? The ruling that was given in May with regard to that says—
  "The interest must be a direct pecuniary interest, and separately belonging to the persons whose votes are questioned and not in common with the rest of His Majesty's subjects."
  The hon. Member put it as a question of fact that in this case the vote with regard to the compensation for licences is a vote in a matter in which the Member, whose vote is challenged, has a direct pecuniary interest, and I submit that the House has a right to have that—
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is entitled to submit a point of order to me, but I do not think he will be in order in making a speech on it. May I point out to the hon. Member that what he

  913
  has quoted from is really a manual or guide? He has not quoted from the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders of the House do not refer to this matter, but I have quoted from the last decision of Mr. Speaker on the subject. Mr. Speaker decides points of order as they rise in the House, and it is my duty to decide upon points of order that arise in Committee.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid, on the point of order, Sir, may I ask whether the conduct of the hon. Member in question falls within the ruling of Mr. Speaker which you have quoted, and is not rather a matter for the House than the Chair?
  THE CHAIRMAN: If it had been, Mr. Speaker would not have ruled it.
  And, it being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; again upon Monday next.

ADJOURNMENT.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD,)moved, "That the House do now adjourn."
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
MR. DALZIELsaid he wished to ask a question with reference to the present position in Tibet. He understood that some information had been received in the course of the day with reference to certain operations which had taken place. He should like to know what the result of those operations had been, and also whether, in view of what had taken place, the time had not now arrived for the Government to give the House some indication of the effect of those operations with regard to their future policy. They wanted to know whether the right hon. Gentleman could now repeat the statement he made some months ago that the operations were at an end. What was the attitude of the Government with regard to this matter, and had any instructions been
914
given to the officer in command of our forces there? He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give the House some information which would lead them to believe that they were coming to an end of this sorry business.
MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLasked the right hon. Gentleman to explain why information received by the Government had been published in the newspapers before being communicated to this House.
MR. FLYNNsaid he wished to call attention to the fact that the suzerain Power had not been consulted in this matter. It had been deliberately ignored, and the present operations were a distinct violation of the promises made by the Prime Minister on the floor of the House a short time ago. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the negotiations were to be of a peaceful character, and he said most distinctly that there was no intention of warlike operations, or of annexing or occupying territory. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give a distinct assurance that warlike operations would not be conducted against a peaceful people.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid there was news going through the city in the afternoon that some operations had taken place. Why was the Minister in charge of the India Office not present to explain to the House what had happened? Was his office a mere sinecure t He thought it was a very great scandal that the right hon. Gentleman was not present. He was very well paid for being present.
MR. STUART SAMUELasked the right hon. Gentleman to be good enough to state whether there were any gold mines in Tibet.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid he wished to know what our position was with regard to China. Were we at war with China, or were we trying to put down some troubles in a country of which China was suzerain?
THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,)said he might be allowed to reply in the

915
first place to the remarks of the hon. Member who spoke last but two. That hon. Gentleman's complaint was that he was not present to give information at Question time. As there were no Questions on the Paper addressed to him, and as no Member had given him private notice of his intention to ask for information, he was not actually in the House when the Question was put, but he had been in the precincts since the House met. If there had been any important communication to be made to the House he would not have failed to be present there. The Government had received no confirmation as yet of the information in Renter's telegrams that afternoon as to the force at Gyangtse having occupied the Jong, but as soon as any information was received he would communicate it through the Press. [Loud cries of "To the House of Commons."] An hon. Gentleman had asked a Question as to the policy of His Majesty's Government. He thought it was too late an hour — [Loud OPPOSITION cries of "No, No!"]—to enter on a disquisition as to the work of His Majesty's forces in Tibet. All he could say was that the policy of His Majesty's Government had changed in no single particular from what was laid down in the telegram to the Viceroy of 6th November last year, and which had been repeatedly affirmed by the House. The operations of the last few days had led the Government to hope that, at last, Tibetan representatives would approach Colonel Younghusband; and a delay had been made in the advance to Lhasa, which had been fixed for the 25th of last month; but it appeared that the Tibetan representatives were not possessed of sufficient credentials, or of any credentials at all. They were there apparently simply to delay the advance of our troops, which it was desirable should not be delayed within the comparatively short time which should pass before the commencement of the Tibetan winter. At any moment negotiations might take place if the Tibetan authorities would send negotiators with sufficient powers to negotiate. It was not the desire of His Majesty's Government to ask for anything at variance with their previous declaration, or to make any more onerous conditions of re paration for what had taken place, and
916
what the House had affirmed to be necessary.
MR. LOUGHsaid he thought that the explanation was very unsatisfactory. The point he wished to draw attention to was, that if the Government had received no special news from India, how was it that the Prime Minister had possessed himself of a telegram which he read to the House that afternoon? Had the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for India read that telegram?
MR. BRODRICK: Telegrams are constantly passing between the India Office and the Viceroy.
MR. LOUGHsaid he thought the right hon. Gentleman was treating the matter with some levity. The telegram which the Prime Minister had read to the House stated that the bombardment of the Jong had commenced at a certain hour; but it was said that the result was not in the possession of the Government. He asked the Secretary for India whether any supplementary telegram had bean received by the Government. When serious warlike operations of this kind were being undertaken, the Government ought to afford the House some information. He understood that a British officer had been killed and that other serious casualties had taken place, and he thought that some information should be given to the House. On the larger question raised about negotiations with the Tibetans, the right hon. Gentleman repeated that the Government desired to negotiate with them. But if these Tibetans did not desire to negotiate and wanted to simply live peacefully in their own land, was this policy of butchery and extermination to be carried out to the bitter end? Perhaps the Prime Minister would give the House some information. He was responsible for the Government. He was sure that it would be received with satisfaction by the country that there was some prospect that these cruel operations against a people practically unarmed would be put a stop to.
Adjourned at twenty-live minutes before One o'clock,