Sitting of 17 February 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
NEW WRIT.
New Writ for the Borough of Birmingham (South Division), in the room of the right hon. Joseph Powell Williams, deceased.—(Sir A. Acland-Hood.)
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS,
Great Eastern Railway Bill; Great Eastern Railway (Steamboats) Bill; Wellington (Somerset) Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.

THAMES STEAMBOAT TRUST BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
MR. JOHN BURNSsaid he did not wish to prevent the Bill going upstairs to a Committee but he
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wished to enter a protest against the Bill on the ground that it contained a principle that would be prejudicial, not only to private enterprise but to municipal undertakings, if carried into effect. The Bill sought to incorporate, against its will, the London County Council as a party to this Trust, and for reasons which might subsequently develop he now entered his protest. Still he believed the common sense of a Committee of the House of Commons would put upon the measure the stamp of disapproval which it deserved.
Bill read a second time and committed.
Rickmansworth and Uxbridge Valley Water Bill (by Order). Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next (Evening Sitting).
Kilmarnock Corporation Order Confirmation Bill. Read a second time; to be considered upon Friday.
Ryde Gas. Report [16th February] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
Bill to be read a second time.

PETITIONS.
  LICENCE HOLDERS IN THE CITY OF WINCHESTER.
  Petition from Winchester, for redress of grievances; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES (RENEWAL).
  Petitions against alteration of Law: from Hastings; York; Sunderland; Brighton; Harringay (two); Blackpool (two); Ilkley; Garth; Skelmersdale; Gowerton; Gorseinon; Lewes; Sheffield (two); Stratford; Morriston; Charles-town; Bolton (three); Morecombe; Irleth; Lewisham; Broughton; Great Harwood; Haslington; Bellingham; Aintree; Broughty Ferry; Preston; Exeter (two); Bedminster Down; Lancaster and Chester; Ladywood; Bingley; Ladybank; Letham; Tayport; Bwlchgwyr; Salern; Stonebroom; Mumbles; Birstal; Clydach; Abergwynfin; Landore; Dalston; Crewe; Gomersal; Bodfari; Llansilin; Cerrigydmdior; Brvngwyn; Penrhyn (two); Llanbedr; Coupar Angus; Foston; South Wigston; Kirkby in Furness; Eccleshall; Chelmsford; Hemingfield; Capel Newydd; Newnham on Severn; Hereford; Llwyn-celyn; Durham; Watch Tower; Penrhyn Dendraeth (two); Ffosyffin; Glasgow; Pennant; Bream; Penmorfa; Llwynda-fydd; Brecon; Blaenafon; Rochdale (two); Blaecefn; Blaenplwyf; Llanfran-dog; Tregaron; Blaencaron; and Trigwron; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (QUALIFICATION OF WOMEN).
  Petition of the College Hall Old Students' Association, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE.
  Petition from Staffordshire, for extension to women; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  INEBRIATES' ACTS, 1879 TO 1899 (REGULATIONS) (IRELAND).
  Paper [presented 16th February] to be printed. [No. 59.]

  MUSICAL COPYRIGHT COMMITTEE.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Committee appointed by the Secretary of
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  State for the Home Department to inquire into the question of Musical Copyright, with separate Report by Mr. J. Caldwell, M.P., and Minutes of Evidence [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  MILITARY WORKS ACTS, 1807. 1899, and 1901.
  Account presented, for the period ended 31st March, 1903, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 60.]
  NATIONAL DEBT (SAVINGS BANKS AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES).
  Annual Account presented, for the period ended 20th November, 1903 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 61.]
  NATIONAL DEBT (MILITARY SAVINGS BANKS).
  Account presented, of the Gross Amount of all Moneys received and paid by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt on account of the Fund for Military Savings Banks, from 19th September, 1845, to the 5th January, 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 62.]
  DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
  Accounts presented, for the year ended 21stDecember, 1903[by Act];to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 63.]
  NAVY (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1903–4).
  Copy presented, of Estimate of the Further Amount required during the year ending 31st March, 1904, beyond the sum already provided in the Grant for Navy Services for the year [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 64.]
  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1904–5.
  Estimates presented, for the year 1904–5 with Explanation of Differences [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 65.]

  NAVY (STATEMENT EXPLANATORY OF ESTIMATES).
  Copy presented, of Statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty explanatory

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  of the Navy Estimates, 1904–5 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  COLONIAL REPORTS (MISCELLANEOUS).
  Copy presented, of Report No. 26 (Nigeria, Report on a Series of Mineral and Vegetable Products from Northern Nigeria, by Professor W. R. Dunstan, Director of the Imperial Institute) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Soane's Museum.—Copy of Statement of the Funds of the Museum of the late Sir John Soane on 5th January, 1904 [by Act].
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Prices of Sugar in London and on the Continent.
    SIR JOHN LENG: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the retail prices of white granulated sugar per lb. in London, Paris, Berlin, and Vienna, on 1st January, 1902, and 1st January, 1903, respectively.
    (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The retail prices of white granulated sugar, as sold in large retail establishments in London, Paris, and Berlin, on the 1st January, 1902 and 1903, were approximately as follows:—

    1st January, 1902. Per lb.

    1st January, 1903. Per lb.

    London

    2d.

    2d.

    Paris

    4d.

    4d.

    Berlin

    3d.

    3¼d.

    I am informed that corresponding particulars cannot be given for Vienna as white granulated sugar is not consumed there.

    British, American, and German Imports into Natal.
    SIR THOMAS DEWAR): To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether
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    he is aware that British imports into Natal for the year 1903 show an increase of only 3·7 per cent., as compared with 1902, whereas the import of German goods shows an increase of 44·8, and American 42·7 percent.; and can he state how these figures compare with the year 1892.
    (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The Board of Trade have not yet received official particulars of the trade of Natal with different countries in 1903. The official Returns of the United Kingdom show a decline of about 1 per cent. in exports of British produce from the United Kingdom to Natal in 1903 as compared with 1902.

    Damage to Port of Ness Breakwater Isle of Lewis.
    MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state the nature of the recommendations contained in the report relative to the damage sustained by the breakwater at Port of Ness, Island of Lewis; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. A. Graham' Murray. Mr. Shiel's Report has already been circulated to the House, and the nature of any suggested remedies are therein set forth, but the expenditure involved in the repair to the breakwater and harbour of Portness, taken as a whole, is so large and out of proportion to the advantage to be gained, that it is not intended to take any further action in the matter.

    Construction of Protecting Wall for Skigersta Pier, Isle of Lewis.
    MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state whether any progress has yet been made with the construction of a protecting wall for the Skigersta Pier, Island of Lewis.
    (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) The Congested Districts Board are still without reply from the promoters, but I understand that they are, nevertheless, keeping the question of the grant open.

    Applications for Postmastership of Ilfracombe.
    CAPTAIN NORTON (Newington, W.): To ask the Postmaster-General whether

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    he will state the date and number of the Post Office Circular in which applications were invited for the postmastership of Ilfracombe; and whether he will state the number of applications for the position.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The vacancy was not notified in the Post Office Circular, as the late postmaster was for disciplinary reasons required to exchange with another officer.

    Annual Leave of Adult Post Office Messengers.
    MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that adult messengers in provincial towns who perform full night duty are not allowed the same annual leave as unestablished officers on full day duty; and whether he can see his way to increase the annual leave for the former.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I am not aware of the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers, and if he will furnish me with some particulars I Will have inquiry made.

    Postal Deliveries at Bolarney, Wicklow.
    MR. COGAN (Wicklow, E.): To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that there are three or four deliveries daily of letters within the greater portion of the urban district of Wicklow, but that there is only one delivery daily at 6.30 a.m. in the part of the urban district called Bolarney, and that therefore letters arriving by the 7.20 a.m. train are not delivered until the following morning; and, if so, whether he will cause such steps to be taken as will ensure a morning delivery of all letters arriving the same morning to every resident within the urban district, and to those who reside adjacent to the urban boundary.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I have made inquiry on the question of affording a second delivery in the day in Bolarney, but I regret to find that, owing to the small number of letters affected, I should not be justified in
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    incurring the additional expense necessary for affording the desired accommodation.

    Telephonic Communication between Ballymena and Londonderry.
    MR. GORDON: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can state what progress has been made towards establishing telephonic communication between Ballymena and Londonderry with branch lines to Coleraine and Limavady; and when the construction of such system will be commenced.
    (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The Post Office trunk wire system has been extended from Belfast to Ballymena, and exchanges have been opened at Antrim, Ballymena, and Kells. I hope to be able to arrange for a further extension to serve Coleraine, Limavady, and Londonderry, when additional funds are available for the development of the Post Office telephone system. A Bill to authorise further capital expenditure for this purpose will be presented to this House at an early date.

    Russo-Japanese war—Coal as Contraband
    MR. RUNCIMAN: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether coal has been declared by the Russian or Japanese Government to be contraband of war, or has coal been treated by the belligerents as contraband.
    (Answered by Earl Percy.) His Majesty's Government have not learned that any declaration on the subject has been made by either of the belligerents.

    Collection of County Rates in Ireland.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Local Government Board for Ireland will agree to allow collectors of county rates to close their account, on 1st May and 1st November instead of on 31st March and 30th September, where it can be shown that the collection of the rates will be thereby facilitated.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I would refer the hon. Baronet to my reply to the

    9
    similar Question put to me on Monday last by the hon. Member for South Wexford.†

    Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act Suggested Amendment.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will introduce a Bill to amend the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1893, as far as Ireland is concerned, so that the analyses of artificial manures be stamped on the bags, so much of nitrogen, potash, and phosphates, the use of all other terms to be prohibited; that it be compulsory on the merchant to sell to a policeman or officer authorised to take samples by the Department of Agriculture or county committees of agriculture and technical instruction: that samples be taken by a sampling pale or spear; and that, as regards feeding stuffs, merchants be obliged to give an analysis of the exact composition, and any departure therefrom to constitute an offenee.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Department has under consideration the question of an amendment of this Act, so far as it applies to Ireland. Before finally deciding as to the nature of any amendment, it proposes to avail itself of the conclusions which may be arrived at by the Departmental Committee appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to inquire into the working of the Act in Treat Britain, as much of the evidence given before that Committee will no doubt be also applicable to the circumstances of Ireland.

    Working of Terenure to Blessington Steam Tramway.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the Terenure (Dublin) to Blessington steam tram line has been working at a loss to the county Wicklow guaranteeing baronies of over £9,000, from the year 1887 to the 30th of June, 1901, equal to £600 a year; and also that the Blessington to Poulaphouca line, an independent and unguaranteed enterprise, is worked partly at the expense of the Terenure and
    †See (4) Debates., cxxix, 1308.
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    Blessington system; and whether he will order an official inquiry into this matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The payment of dividends on the guaranteed capital of the Dublin and Blessington Steam Tramway and the payment of any deficit in working expenses on the line are guaranteed by the counties Dublin and Wicklow. The net payment by each county in the period covered by the Question was £4,596 7s. 11d. There were Treasury contributions amounting to £3,830 1s. 2d. in respect to each county during the same period. The extension to Poulaphouca is worked by the Dublin and Blessington Tramway at a lower rate and is allowed exceptional terms in the way of rebate on traffic. I am not aware that there are any reasons for an inquiry as suggested.

    Irish Children and Gardening—Government Grants.
    MR. FFRENCH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the English Board of Agriculture gives grants for the subject of gardening; and whether, in view of the desirability of children being made familiar with the habits, growth, and food of plants, he will take steps to secure that the Irish Board of Agriculture shall also give grants for the subject of gardening.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I understand the English Board of Agriculture makes grants to certain institutions for agricultural purposes, including gardening. Grants for the teaching of gardening have also been made by the Irish Department through the county committees of agricultural and technical instruction.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Naval Training Ships—Stornoway's Claim.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the Walpole Commission in their Report, dated July, 1890, recommended the establishment of a training ship for the Royal Navy at Stornoway; and will he say

    11
    whether the Board of Admiralty can see their way to adopt the proposal.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): The Admiralty are aware of the recommendations of the Walpole Commission, but cannot see their way to establish a training ship at Stornoway.

    North Sea Fisheries—Wireless Telegraphy with the Faroe Islands and Iceland.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the proposals contained in the Report of the International Conference on Scientific Investigations in the North Sea, the question of securing communication with the Faroe Islands and Iceland by wireless telegraphy has yet been considered.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY, Kensington, S.): As my predecessor stated on the 25th of June last, the point raised cannot be considered apart from the larger question of the general use of wireless telegraphy. On this subject no definite decision has yet been arrived at.

    Thibet—Chinese Envoy to Lhassa,
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state whether the Chinese Envoy who left Pekin in December, 1902, on a mission to Lhassa, for the purpose of arranging with the Thibetans a solution of the questions which the British Commissioner has been charged to discuss, has yet reached his destination; and, if not, will he consider the expediency of communicating with the Chinese Government with a view to ascertain the cause of the delay.
    EARL PERCY: We have no information of the arrival of the Chinese Envoy at Lhassa, but, having regard to the instructions which the Chinese Minister stated in his note of 23rd November had been given, it is not proposed to make a furthur communication to the Chinese Government at present.
    † See (4) Debates, cxxiv., 554.

    Armed Political Mission to Thibet
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will state the grounds upon which the Government of India decided that the present armed political mission to Thibet is not a contra vention of the Act of 1858; and whether he will lay Papers before Parliament con taining a report of the proceedings of the Supreme Executive Council of India at which this conclusion was arrived at, together with the opinions then given upon the question.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): The fact that an escort accompanies the political mission does not necessitate any faction under Clauses 54 and 55 of the Government of India Act, to which I presume the hon. Member refers. The question is not one for the consideration of the Governor-General's Council, and there are no Papers to be presented.

    Indian Railways.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether Parliament will be supplied at an early date with copies of the Indian Government's recommendations, founded on Mr. Thomas Robertson's Report, regarding the working of the Indian railway system, with his suggestions as to new lines.
    MR. BRODRICK: The views and recommendations of the Government of India on Mr. Thomas Robertson's Report are now under my consideration. I cannot present any further Papers at present.

    Calcutta High Court.
    SIR. MANCHERJEE BHOWNAG-GREE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, referring to the answer given by his predecessor to a Question by the hon. Member for the Frome Division of Somerset on the 13th November, 1902, if he will state the result of the inquiry instituted.
    MR. BRODRICK: I am informed by the Government of India that the suggestion that there has been any undue
    † See (4) Debates, exiv 868.

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    delay in the disposal of criminal work in the Calcutta High Court is entirely unfounded; that if the criminal work before the Court is found at any time to be more than one Bench can deal with, arrangements are always made for constituting a second criminal Bench to deal with the excess; and that the Judges, after careful search, are unable to trace that any case has occurred in which a person on a short term of imprisonment who has appealed and not been released on bail, has served his term before his appeal could be heard.

    Convict Labour in the Colonies.
    MR. EUGENE WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether convicts, native or otherwise, have ever been let out for hire in any of our self-governing or Crown colonies except in the case of the Transvaal.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): As I stated in reply to another Question on Monday,† 1,200 convicts are employed at Kimberley in the mines. This is in virtue of a contract between the Government and the De Beers Consolidated Mines Limited.
    MR. EUGENE WASON: That is not an answer to my Question.
    MR. LYTTELTON: If the hon. Gentleman thinks it worth while pursuing the matter I will make further inquiries and endeavour to obtain the information he wants.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that convict labour is employed on Robben Island?
    MR. CROOKS: Are there any white men among these 1,200 convicts?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Transvaal Labour Ordinance.
    MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Transvaal Government is prepared to alter the Ordinance with
    † See (4) Debates, cxxix, 1320
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    regard to the admission of Chinese labour so as to include the points suggested by the Chinese Minister for further safeguarding the interests of the immigrants, especially as regards corporal punishment.
    MR. LYTTELTON: The Legislative Council of the Transvaal having been adjourned, the amendment of the Ordinance is not practicable, but I anticipate no difficulty in meeting the suggestions of the Chinese Minister under the power to make regulations which is given by the Ordinance.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: Will the suggestion in regard to the appointment of a Consul or of Consuls be agreed to?
    MR. LYTTELTONassented.

    Employment of Native Convicts in the Transvaal.
    MR. WHITLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what is the total number of native convicts in the Transvaal Colony; and how many are supplied for purposes of labour to private persons or companies. I beg also to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will state how many of the 850 native convicts supplied to the Transvaal gold mines have been convicted for minor offences, such as walking on the side walk, intoxication, or petty thefts.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I have given the hon. Member all the information in my possession, in replying to him on Monday excepting that I have also learnt that the employment of convicts with the mining companies was arranged, not to oblige them, but because there was insufficient accommodation in the gaols, with overcrowding and danger to health. I will make further inquiry as to the details which the hon. Member desires.
    MR. WHITLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain the total number of convicts in the colony?
    MR. LYTTELTON: Yes, Sir.
    †See (4) Debates, cxxix, 1320.

    The Reported Rising in Nigeria.
    MR. MALCOLM: May I ask the Secretary for the Colonies whether he has any official information about the disasters in Southern Nigeria reported in this morning's paper?
    MR. LYTTELTON: No, Sir.

    Trinidad Disturbances.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state when the Report of the Chief Justice of British Guiana, relative to the disturbances at Port of Spain, Trinidad, will be laid upon the Table of the House.
    MR. LYTTELTON: I cannot at present state whether the Report will be published or when.
    MR. WEIR: May I repeat the Question in a week's time?
    MR. LYTTELTON: Oh, a little longer.

    National Finance—Unexpended Balances.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, having regard to the fact that the unexpended balances of Votes surrendered to the Exchequer by Government Departments during the last ten years amounts to £11,613,119 19s. 9d., will he state how much of this sum represents Scottish and Irish Votes respectively.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): I fear it is impossible to show the total surrenders out of monies provided for Scottish and Irish services because a great part of this provision is included in Votes such as those for the Post Office and Inland Revenue Departments which apply to the whole of the United Kingdom and which cannot, therefore, be earmarked to particular countries.

    Supplementary Estimates
    MR. WHITLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of the Treasury whether there will be any Supplementary Estimates this year; and, if so, can he indicate the nature of the Votes required.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): The Civil Service
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    Supplementary Estimates were circulated yesterday. There will also be Supplementary Estimates for the Army and Navy.
    MR. WHITLEY: Can the hon. Gentleman state the total amount to be asked for?
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I am afraid not.
    MR. WEIR: Can we have the amount for the Navy?
    MR.PRETYMAN: £1,270,000. The Estimate will be circulated to morrow.

    Poor Prisoners Defence Act.
    SIR THOMAS DEWAR: I beg to ask Mr. Solicitor-General whether he is aware that the Recorder, when dealing with the case of a prisoner brought before him at the Old Bailey on the 9th instant, stated that in his opinion the Poor Prisoners' Act did not clearly show that the prisoner was entitled to the services of both a solicitor and counsel, and, in the circumstances, he gave instructions for a counsel to be employed direct on behalf of the prisoner without reference to a solicitor; and, if so, will he state whether he proposes to take action in the matter.
    THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON,): The Question does not accurately represent what was said by the Recorder on the occasion referred to. The Recorder stated that as no solicitors had, at the Old Bailey, expressed their willingness to defend poor prisoners under the Act of last session he was unable to assign a solicitor, but that he had come to the conclusion that he was entitled to assign counsel and he accordingly did so. The rules proposed by the Attorney-General in pursuance of the Act, and which have been laid upon the Table of the House, make provision for the employment of both solicitor and counsel.

    Congestion in Scottish Crofting Counties.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether, since the publication of the last Report of the Congested Districts Board, any arrangements for the acquisition of land in either of the six crofting counties for the creation of

    17
    new holdings have been completed; and, if so, will he state briefly the nature of the arrangements, the districts where land has been secured, and the amount expended.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): The only fully completed arrangement for the acquisition of land since the publication of the last Report of the Congested Districts Board is that of the Estate of Glendale in Skye, the price of which is not payable until Whitsunday term next, but there are several other cases which the Board hope to deal with in their forthcoming Report.

    Fitzmaurice Estate—Queen's County.
    MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what progress has been made with the sale to the tenants on the Fitzmaurice property in the Queen's county; and, whether any advance has been recently made in the way of sale on the other side of the same property to the tenants on the townlands of Coolnadoun and Clogheready in the county of Limerick.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRE LAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The report made by the Land Commission on the Queen's county portion of this estate was before the Land Judge on the 14th ultimo, and its further consideration was postponed to an early date. It is not proposed, as I have already pointed out, to consider the question of a sale of the Limerick portion of the estate until after the completion of the sale of the Queen's County portion.

    Apjohn Estate, County Limerick.
    MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can say how the estate of the representatives of the late Michael Marshall Lloyd Apjohn in and around Pallasgrean, county Limerick, stands as regards sale to the tenants on it; and what progress has been made in that direction since last August.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The draft rental has now been finally settled, and on Thursday last the Land Judge authorised
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    the Receiver to negotiate with the tenants for the sale to them of their holdings.

    Longford Drainage Rates.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any complaints as to excessive drainage rates in county Longford have been made to the Board of Works; whether he is aware that, in the case of the Camlin River Drainage tax, sums have been levied twice in one year on some tenants, and only once on others; whether any control rests in the hands of the local drainage board on the question of the assessing and levying of the amount; and to whom complaint is to be made in case of overcharges.
    MR. WYNDHAM: No complaints of the nature mentioned in the first and second parts of the Question have been made to the Board of Works. The locally elected drainage board is responsible for the applotment and collection of the rates, and any complaints in this respect should be addressed to that board.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: If this matter is not attended to, will the Board of Works take it in hand?
    MR. WYNDHAM: Any complaint of overcharge should go to the Board of Works. If wrongful administration is complained of, an action would be against members of the drainage board or the electors could turn them out at the next election.

    Fair Rent Applications.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state how many applications to fix fair rents have been filed since 1st November, 1903; how many of these applications are first and how many second-term applications; and how many agreements have been filed during the same period.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The number of applications filed between 1st November, 1903, and 15th February, instant, was, for a first-term rent, 1,070, and for a second-term rent, 1,869. The number of

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    agreements filed in the same period was 741 for a first-term, and 1,113 for a second-term rent.

    Harmless Lunatics in Ireland.
    MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will consider the advisability of introducing, this session, a Bill to assimilate the Law in Ireland with that of Scotland, which enables the boarding out of harmless lunatics.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on Thursday last to a Question put on the same subject.†

    Irish Development Fund Act and National Schools.
    MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in reference to the Development Fund Act, whether his undertaking given last session that all national schools, maintaining an average daily attendance of fifty pupils, will be entitled to the services of an assistant teacher will be carried into effect at an early date; and whether, in view of the fact that the Commissioners of National Education have frequently made representations to this effect, he will induce the Treasury to take steps to have this reform carried out with the least possible delay.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I promised to give this matter my earnest and favourable attention. But it must be considered in relation to all the features of primary education and to the charges, which cannot at present be determined, that may fall on the Development Grant in connection with the flotation of stock.
    MR. FLYNN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he is likely to be in a position to give the Irish Members this information?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I shall be very glad to do it, either in this House or out of it, as soon as possible.
    † See (4) Debates, cxxix. 1037.

    Tyrone Magistracy.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many Roman Catholic magistrates there are in the Fintona district, county Tyrone, seeing that the population is not largely Roman Catholic; and if any proposal will be made to the proper authority to increase the number of Roman Catholic magistrates.
    MR. WYNDHAM: One Roman Catholic magistrate attended Petty Sessions in this district last year. The Lord Chancellor and the Lieutenant of the County will consider any recommendations that may be made to them in favour of the appointment of additional Roman Catholic gentlemen to the Commission.

    St. Mels College, Longford.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state by what authority payment of a sum of £34 odd in respect of additional equipment expenditure for science teaching has been refused to St. Mels College, Longford; and, having regard to the fact that Part II. of the scheme of the County Longford Technioal Committee provides for such payment, will he direct that the sanction of the department be given to its payment.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am advised that Part II. of the scheme does not provide for payment of the sum mentioned. The department has authorised payment of the whole of the amount allocated under the scheme for laboratory equipment at the college, namely £125. A further grant of £67 17s. 6d. out of the Science and Art Vote has also been made towards the cost of equipment, and an additional amount may be payable when the examination of the accounts has been completed.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: Are we to understand that the £34 is not covered by this further grant?
    MR. WYNDHAM: That is so I think.

    Longford Rural District Loans.
    MR. J. P. FAREELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain why a sum of £130 certified for as being due as an instalment on loan to Longford Rural District Council by Mr. Price, Engineering Inspector of the Local Government Board, is not being paid; whether he is aware that in consequence of the delay in advancing this loan a cheque for £100, given to the contractor for the work, is lying unpaid at the bank since last October: and will he direct that the amount certified for by Mr. Price be now advanced.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The inspector did not give a certificate, as stated. The amounts advanced from time to time in respect of approved loans are recommended by the Local Government Board. In the present case the Board recommended the issue of an advance of £150 to the District Council on the 5th instant, and on the 10th instant the amount was paid by the Board of Works.

    Galway Fair Rent Appeals
    MR. ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that appeals against decisions of Land Sub-Commission in fixing fair rents in county Galway, although lodged three years ago, have not yet been heard, he will take steps to secure that they shall be heard without further delay.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am informed that a sitting for the hearing of fair rent appeals at Galway will be arranged for by the Commissioners at the earliest possible date.

    Belfast Post Office.
    MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will arrange that notice plates shall be provided at the front counter of the post office at Belfast indicating the nature of the business transacted at the various departments, and direct that a late fee box be placed convenient to the general letter box.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): I have given directions for enamelled iron
    22
    notice plates to be fixed in the head post office at Belfast as desired by the hon. Member. A late fee letter box is already provided in Garfield Street beside the large letter boxes for general posting, and no further facilities for late fee posting seem to be necessary.

    Longford Postal Arrangements.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in order to facilitate the earlier delivery of letters and parcels in Longford, he will direct that the auxiliary postmen at present employed for that purpose be placed upon the permanent staff of town letter carriers.
    LORD STANLEY: There is no need at present to increase the number of established town postmen at Longford, but the question of employing an established rural postman in place of a rural auxiliary is now being considered.

    Longford Drainage Loans
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury to state the total amount of loans for drainage purposes raised in the county Longford; how much of this sum was administered by elected and how much by non-elected drainage boards; and how much is now outstanding against the several districts in North and South Longford.
    MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: The total amount of advances by the Board of Works for arterial drainage in county Longford is £51,652 1s. 1d. This is exclusive of the amount expended for maintenance by the local boards, as to which the Government has no information. All the trustees of drainage boards are elected. The amount of principal outstanding on the 31st March last was as follows:—Currygrane, £246 10s.; Upper Inny, £44,304 0s. 10d.; Rinn and Black River, £689 0s. 9d.; Total £45,239 11s. 7d.

    Lough Foyle Lights.
    MR. O'DOHERTY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether any further progress has been made by the Irish Light Commissioners with the erection of the gas lighted sounding buoy, promised by him on their

    23
    behalf in 1902, at the Tuns Bank entrance to Lough Foyle; and, if not, what is the cause of the delay.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I am informed by the Commissioners of Irish Lights that they hope to place the buoy on Tuns Bank during the coming summer. Some slight delay has been caused by a strike at the contractors' works, which has now been settled.

    Transit of Irish Live Stock—Through Consignment Notes.
    MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make inquiry into the terms of the through consignment notes for the transit of live stock from Ireland to Great Britain; and whether he is aware that consignors are compelled to sign a contract relieving the carrying companies from the safeguarding provisions of the Carrier's Act.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I cannot add anything to replies which I have from time to time given the hon. Member. I am not aware that carrying companies in Ireland compel or have any power to compel consignors of live stock to sign contracts relieving the companies of liability, and a general inquiry into the terms of consignment notes does not appear to be necessary.

    Irish Soldiers as Game-beaters.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state with what object and by what authority the permanent staff of the Fifth Battalion, Royal Irish Rifles, were engaged as game-beaters at Finnebrogue on 17th November and 19th January, and at Seaforde on 8th December and 5th January; and whether any, and if so what, remuneration was paid.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): I am not aware of these incidents, and I am not prepared to interfere with the discretion of the local military authorities in the matter.

    Buncrana Barracks, Donegal.
    MR. O'DOHERTY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state the cause of the delay on the part of the War Office in proceeding with the erection of the new military barracks at Buncrana, county Donegal; whether a site has yet been selected; and, seeing that the account prepared by the War Office for the years 1901–1902 provided for the erection of the barracks, will he say whether the construction will be proceeded with immediately.
    MR. ARNOLD-FOKSTEK: As the hon. Member is aware, great difficulties have been experienced in negotiating for the purchase of land for building the barracks there for the Royal Garrison Artillery, The cost of the land together with the cost of the barracks is considered prohibitive, and the scheme of building the barracks has been accordingly abandoned.

    Gambling in Futures.
    MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government will consider the urgency of the situation arising from the corner in cotton, and introduce legislation to prohibit gambling in futures, options, and warrants in produce and stock exchanges, or give facilities for the discussion of a Bill with this object if introduced by a private Member.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's)—(for Mr. A. J. Balfour): I am afraid the situation—undoubtedly a mostanxiousone—will hardly be amended by legislation of the character suggested by the hon. Members; and though I heartily sympathise with the object the hon. Member has in view, I fear that, as at present advised, my reply to his Question must be in the negative. I may remind him that, after all, as is stated in the gracious Speech from the Throne, the best remedy for the condition of things from which, unfortunately, the cotton industry is now suffering would appear to lie in increasing the

    25
    sources of supply of the raw material from the various parts of the Empire.
    MR. FIELD: What is to become of the Lancashire and Yorkshire manufacturers in the meantime?
    MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: That is a question I am afraid I cannot answer now.

PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.
First Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
NEW BILLS.
  RESIDENT MAGISTRATES (BELFAST) BILL.
  "To make provision for the appointment and remuneration of Resident Magistrates in Belfast," presented by Sir James Haslett; supported by Mr. Wolff, Mr. Sloan, Mr. Charles Craig, and Mr. O'Doherty; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 2nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 70.]
  WINTER ASSIZES (IRELAND) BILL.
  "To extend the jurisdiction of Winter Assizes in Ireland," presented by Sir James Haslett; supported by Mr. Wolff, Mr. Sloan, Mr. Charles Craig, Mr. Thomas Corbett, Mr. O'Doherty, and Mr. Wood; to be read a second time upon Wednesday 2nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 71.]
  REGISTRATION OF FIRMS BILL.
  "For the registration of firms and persons carrying on business under trade names," presented by Mr. Emmott; sup ported by Mr. James Heath, Sir Alfred Hickman, Sir William Holland, and Mr. Walter Palmer; to be read a second time upon Friday 13th May, and to be printed. [Bill 72.]

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING (LONDON) BILL.
  "To provide for the adjustment, in accordance with changes of boundary effected under The London Government Act, 1899, of the areas within which local authorities and companies are authorised to supply electricity," presented by Mr. Gerald Balfour; supported by Mr. Bonar Law; to be read a second time
  26
  upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 69.]

  CROFTERS' HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  "To amend the Acts relating to Crofters' Holdings in Scotland," presented by Mr. Ainsworth; supported by Mr. John Dewar, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. Weir, and Mr. Harmsworth; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 73]
  CONGESTED DISTRICTS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1897) AMENDMENT BILL.
  "To amend the provisions of The Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897, as to the application of the fund constituted by the Act; and for other purposes," presented by Mr. Ainsworth; supported by Mr. John Dewar, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. Weir, and Mr. Harmsworth; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 74.]
  LAND VALUES TAXATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To provide for the Taxation for local purposes of Land Values in burghs in Scotland," presented by Mr. Caldwell; supported by Mr. J. H. Whitley, Mr. Hunter Craig, Mr. Trevelyan, Mr. John Hope, Mr. Ainsworth, and Mr. Dobbie; to be read a second time upon Friday, 11th March, and to be printed. [Bill 75.]

  KING'S SPEECH (MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS).
  [TWELFTH DAY.]
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment [16th February] to Main Question [2nd February],"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign,
  "We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—(Mr. Hardy.)
  Which Amendment was—
  At the end of the Question, to add the words—"And we humbly represent to Your Majesty

  27
  that it is highly inexpedient that sanction should be given to any Ordinance permitting the introduction of indentured Chinese labourers into the Transvaal Colony until the approval of the colonists has been formally ascertained,"—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. MALCOLMsaid there were two features of the preceding day's debate which must be prominent in all their minds. The first was the lucid and masterly speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary, whose knowledge and whose judgment on this particularly thorny question not only showed him thoroughly qualified for the important position which he now held, but also in an ordinary case would have rendered further justification of the Government attitude unnecessary. That led him to the second prominent feature, that this debate was differentiated from an ordinary case by the fact that in the very able speeches of the mover and seconder of the Amendment absolutely no consideration at all was given to the voice of the majority of the Legislative Council in the Transvaal, neither was any allowed for the Majority Report of the Labour Commission, or for the overwhelming evidence of experts whose lives had been given up to the study of labour questions such as these. The case of the mine-owners had been dismissed with a shrug of the shoulders, although they occupied the position of trustees of thousands of shareholders in this country—the sole suggestion was that they feared financial loss, and that all they desired was to flog work out of a voteless and subservient race. The official members of the Council were disposed of as placemen and the rest of the majority were discounted—unworthily, as he thought—as being "open to influence" and as "tame Boers"—a rather strange term to apply, for instance, to P. Roux, who was one of the last to surrender in the war. Thus, by a process of what he might call violent elimination, the hon. Member built up the superstructure of his own and succeeding arguments on the evidence of two individuals, the only men he assumed to be of fearless and independent character, and the only experts whom he considered worth consideration. Under these circumstances it seemed
  28
  almost necessary to preface one's remarks by saying that those who supported the Government in this matter were not necessarily associates, accomplices, and hirelings of those traders in the Transvaal whom hon. Members opposite were never tired of denouncing. The insinuation, at any rate, would lie lightly on him for he never owned stock or share in any gold or other mine. The hon. Member for Cleveland had expressed a hope that they should give a free vote on this occasion. Now, whatever he might have done the night before last, he certainly would be giving a free vote that night; because he proposed to give a vote in favour of the best interests of a colony for which, how-over unwillingly, they had taken the sole responsibility, and whose prosperity therefore it was their bounden duty to try to raise even above the level it enjoyed before the war. A new explanation of the war had lately been discovered. They were now being told that the war of 1899 was waged in order that an unlimited number of white men might find employment in the Transvaal, and it was added that the projected importation of Asiatic labour would mean that all the advantages gained by the expenditure of blood and treasure in the war was to be wasted. That was a new explanation of the war, which had not been discovered at the time when Gentlemen opposite were exercising all their ingenuity to find unworthy reasons for war in the Transvaal. It was ridiculous as a motive, for they held that the war was waged because the South African Republic did not acknowledge the suzerainty of Great Britain, because of the indignities inflicted upon British subjects in the Transvaal, and because of the invasion of a British colony by a Boer army.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: What about the Jameson Raid?
  MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member had better abstain from speaking on the causes of the war.
  MR. MALCOLMsaid he was only dealing with the explanation given by hon. Members opposite as to the cause of the war, but, of course, he would not press the matter further. He thought that if, as a result of victory, the Transvaal had become a happier land to live in, that

  29
  was no reason for urging a procedure on the Transvaal Government of to-day which must logically lead to a monopoly of labour for Europeans in the mines. That was an impossible ideal in the first place, and in the second place it would be fraught with danger to the ultimate prosperity of the colony, and would very likely add much to the friction caused by the black labour problem which was already causing grave anxiety in various countries. Perhaps one might be allowed to protest against the interference of outside opinion in a matter which only concerned the Transvaal Government and the Imperial Government. He thought the remonstrance of Mr. Deakin, and of that impetuous Imperialist, Mr. Seddon—a new friend of hon. Gentlemen opposite—
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: No, an old friend.
  MR. MALCOLMsaid he thought these remonstrances were strangely out of place in the mouths of men who themselves would most violently resent outside interference in the affairs of their own colonics, and they must seem equally strange to the ears of those who held that local self-government was the keystone of our colonial success. Why was it that the Transvaal Government was so anxious to secure foreign labour? The reason was that they were desirous—as we all wished—to restore prosperity to the one industry which could pay the way of the colony—the one industry which caused money to circulate in the country and would allow British citizens to lead a happier life than they were likely to do under present circumstances. Gold was to the Transvaal what the cane fields used to be to the West Indies, what cod fishing was to Newfoundland, and what tea was to Ceylon. The development of that particular industry meant the development of the colony; its stagnation meant ruin to the colony. Could one be surprised that this was an urgent question to be settled, as he thought, without the referendum and without delay; for so long as development was delayed so long would the general welfare of the country be retarded, and so long, incidentally, would its share of the war debt to this country remain unpaid. It was lack of
  30
  labour alone which prevented progress towards immediate prosperity.
  The problem was now to supply that labour. Had they exhausted as yet every other source of supply? They would all admit that the Transvaal Government, since the war, had spent large sums of money in improving and developing recruiting methods, and at the same time they had to regret that its efforts had proved unavailing and unsuccessful. The latest returns showed that in spite of all their expenditure 129,000 men were wanted to bring the mines up to the state of efficiency they were in just before the war. Since 1886 there never had been sufficient Kaffir labour. Before the war they had 100,000 Kaffirs; now there were not more than 50,000, and the rest of these, after allowing for those employed on public works and in agriculture, were little better than wastrels scattered over the land. In this connection he hoped the House would allow him to accentuate what seemed to him likely to prove a great danger—and that was the number of unemployed Kaffirs unwilling to work and unbroken to discipline. As the number of these loafers increased they would become more and more a serious menace to the safety of the white minority. And their number would increase as labour-saving machinery was imported into the Rand, unless serious efforts were made to alter the conditions of native labour as they at present existed, to deal with the taxation and to modify those native habits which led to absolute sloth and worthlessness among the Kaffirs early in life. Their ancestors were only huntsmen and spearmen, but as they learnt the dignity of labour, and as their wants and the wants of their wives increased, they would be attracted to that form of labour the remuneration of which would most quickly satisfy their ambitions. The day had not yet come, but the process was going on slowly, and it would be pessimistic indeed to think it would not come. In Bechuanaland and Basutoland especially the change in the last twenty-five years had been extraordinary. But until that day dawned it would be for the good of all to insist on indirect compulsory labour, under, of course, humane conditions, for races in a backward state

  31
  of civilisation. It was as necessary morally for black races to be made to work as for white children to be made to go to school. It was their first lesson in discipline, and to argue that there was anything of slavery in such a system was to misread or ignore the history of countries ruled and developed by white minorities and to show ourselves indeed slaves of our own misleading phraseology. In the Transvaal he believed 50,000 more men were immediately wanted. Where in Africa could they be found? Central Africa had been tried, but there were many difficulties and objections in the way, one of which was that natives who lived in the tropical zones of British Central Africa soon succumbed to the severe cold which often reigned in the Transvaal. East Africa, too, had been tried, but here again they tried to recruit from tribes of warriors and spearmen who would not labour for any wage. Some might be procured from British India, but it was difficult to get them at anything like possible prices, as the demand already exceeded the supply. The coolie experiment had already been tried in Natal, with the result that the Indian coolie had overrun the place, and had established himself by superior adaptability and more diligent habits of life as master in all the small trades of that colony, and there was no evidence to show that his importation would satisfy those who now declaimed against Chinese labour. They were left then with two sources from which to draw labour for the mines and so to send the river of prosperity flowing through the Rand. It could be got from white sources or from yellow. Anybody who had had anything to do with black labour knew there were certain forms of labour of an unskilled manual kind which the native expected and was expected to do. There wore other branches of the same industry—higher branches of skilled labour, overseeing and administration, which were the peculiar province of the white man. The natives appreciated it, for nowhere was class or caste feeling developed as it was amongst native races, who were most particular to accept only that employment which their social status would allow them to perform; and it was realised also by the white men, from experience of the influence of the white men over black on the mines. But there was a
  32
  corresponding obligation on the white class that those in authority should as far as possible be drawn from the best classes of the white race. These men could not descend to work beside the Kaffir in the mines. Not only would it lower them in the estimation of the natives and of their neighbours, but it would be impossible to give them the wages they would ask. White labour had been tried by Sir Percy Fitzpatrick in his Eckstein mines. Before he tried it he was a most ardent supporter of white labour—he was the only one of his partners who advocated it. But he had to give it up, and so indeed did the directors of a mine managed by Mr. Creswell. They only stopped when they found they were losing £3,000 a month by it.
  MR. FLAVIN: It is all a question of money then.
  MR. MALCOLMsaid the Government also tried it in railway construction; the work done by 1,000 navvies sent out from England cost four times as much as similar labour done by Kaffirs, and they saved £40,000 by giving them a month's wages and shipping them back to England. If then they could not get the best class of whites they were driven to the only other white market—experience had already shown that there was none between—and that was to the low class of Hungarians, Swedes, Norwegians and Italians, whose moral tone imported to the Rand would be deplorable in its effect upon the Kaffirs. It would, he thought, be nothing less than a scandal to any Government, to suggest the importation of low whites. Native races were accustomed to look on the white race as the race of masters and they would not be long in inferring the decay of the white man's power when they found white servants like themselves, with a lack of moral backbone and self-reliance to which they were unaccustomed in a white man. He could only say modestly that his experience of black countries which were ruled by a white minority was that the consensus of reflecting opinion asked for "the best type of pale faces or none at all." Hence the United States, Canada, Ceylon. Singapore and Borneo, Australia, and New Zealand had gone to China to get

  33
  the unskilled labourers that they wanted. We had at the present day this advantage, which the people of these countries and colonies had not—we had the benefit of their experience, and of knowing that precautions would be taken by our orders which were not taken in these countries in bygone years; and he was glad to say that by the regulations of the Colonial Secretary it would be found possible to take these advantages from them. There was absolutely no idea of supplanting the Kaffir or the white race by the Chinese, it was only to supplement the labour of the former. He ventured to think that that must be the view of the mine-owners, because the recruiting of a Kaffir cost £4 and of a Chinaman in China £8, and the more Kaffirs that would work, the fewer Chinese would be wanted. Therefore it was all to the advantage of the mine-owners that they should be able to recruit as cheaply as possible. His hon. friend the Member for Cleveland said that the Chinaman was hated wherever he went. He did not admit that at all, although he admitted that in many countries it was said that he was hated. That, however, was contrary to fact. He could not forget that the Western States of America would not have been what they were but for Chinamen; and in Singapore and Borneo the Chinese had very good characters as workmen, He believed that most people objected to whites doing unskilled labour with Kaffirs. If increased skilled labour was wanted the one thing that would get it was to increase the amount of unskilled labour. That had been proved beyond all controversy, and if the unskilled labour could be got from China a great deal of labour would be secured for the skilled white man. The Chinaman was an undesirable person if left alone; but he had three characteristics which were very valuable He was very thrifty, he was very diligent. and he lived very peacably with his fellow men. [An HON. MEMBER on the OPPOSITON Benches: And very cheap.] The Chinaman was prepared to go to the Transvaal to earn a good wage; he undetermined to return home if he could, to die in his own country. The statistics given by Sir Robert Hart showed that in the last twenty-five years. 4,750,000 Chinaman had gone abroad to work and that no less than 4,000,000 of them had
  34
  voluntarily returned home. The China-man was to be protected while at work—if that were necessary—by an organisation for the purpose which had worked extremely well in Singapore and Borneo, and he had no more idea that he was being sold into slavery than we at home chose to put into his head.
  Mr. CROOKS: He does not know, but he soon will,
  MR. MALCOLMsaid that the Chinaman was, after all, a man likely to look after his own interests. He was to have the conditions explained to him by a Chinaman, and it was absurd to suppose that a Chinaman, whose intelligence was respected all over the world, and who was as intelligent as the hon. Member for Woolwich, was to be duped as the hon. Member for Woolwich thought.
  As to the Ordinance, he hoped that hon. Members who followed him would say what they really thought of that Ordinance. Some seemed to imagine it too strict, and others that it was too lax. Hon. Gentlemen had said that in consequence of the Ordinance Chinamen would flood the country in unfettered liberty, while in another breath it was stated that by the Ordinance Chinamen in the Transvaal would be reduced to slavery. They could not have it both ways. He had seen it stated that our diplomatic relations with China would be strained to a high point if we endeavoured to recruit Chinese subjects for such employment. He did not believe a word of it. Such difficulties had not hitherto occurred in countries where Chinese coolies were indentured; and he made bold to say that no country or colony had framed better regulations for the protection of the Labourer before, during, and after the fulfiment of his contract than had the Legislative Council of the Transvaal. If the Ordinance were designed otherwise, if the conditions imposed were tyrannical and grievous, as was suggested, it would defeat its own object; the Chinese would not come. And if the yellow peril were so imminent as some hon. Gentlemen believed it could be stepped at a moment's notice. A perusal of the regulations, which he

  35
  believed might yet be made more stringent, ought to drive any idea of slavery from so wise a head as that of his hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Isle of Wight. And as for "flooding the country" with Chinese there seemed to be no precaution which had not already been thought of to prevent the occurrence of so lamentable a result. In the interests of the Transvaal he thought this Ordinance ought to be ratified by the House, as an experiment, if they would, and with a time limit. But when all was said and done, he did think that the affairs of the Transvaal had reached a crisis neither healthy for the colony nor creditable to our repution as a Colonial Empire. It was rather unfair, surely, that the Transvaal should be dependent, as it was dependent, upon a foreign Government for 88 per cent. of its mining labour. That was, however, the fact. President Kruger concluded treaties with the Government of Portugal; and in return for allowing him to recruit Kaffir boys in Portuguese East Africa for the Transvaal mines he gave Portugal free trade with the Transvaal. He also arranged that if Durban in Natal, and East London in Cape Colony, wanted railways to Pretoria they must always charge 20 per cent. more per mile than was charged on the Delagoa Railway, all of which but 100 miles belonged to President Kruger. The House knew that at the Bloemfontein Conference, when there was a proposal to federate all South Africa in a Customs Union, the Portuguese Minister at once said, "If you give the same privilege in sending merchandise into the Transvaal as we have got, we shall shut off your supply of Kaffir labour recruited from Portuguese territory." The Portuguese Government had Great Britain in the hollow of their hands. He had read all the evidence, and had tried to decide for himself impartially upon this subject, and it seemed to him that there was overwhelming testimony that there was a demand and a necessity for Asiatic labour from the whole British population of the Transvaal, and of Johannesburg in particular. He did not think there would be very much fear of going to a referendum on this subject. Only a month or two ago the municipal council nominated by Lord Milner were re-elected by the people of Johannesburg on a very low franchise, all but one man,
  36
  and he was the sole opponent of Asiatic labour. He believed that that showed that the British subjects of the Transvaal were in favour of Chinese labour rather than face ruin.
  They had, therefore, practically the whole British in the Transvaal friendly to this importation scheme. Who were against it? Not the Boer population, who stood aloof in spite of the active propaganda fostered amongst them by the Dutch party in the Cape Colony. That was a significant fact, but easily explained when it was realised that the Boers, of all people, were acutely conscious of the shortage of labourers for mining or for any other purpose in the Transvaal. No, the real opposition came from Cape Colony—from that section of the Cape Parliament whose sole desire was to get the Transvaal Government into difficulties, to discredit Lore: Milner, to bring about an overwhelming demand for self-government in the new colonies, and to regain for the Boers by the ballot box what they lost by the sword. Every day their chaplain prayed that they might not be "blinded by private interest, prejudice, or partial affections," and he hoped this would not be forgotten in the division lobby. By their votes they would assume the responsibility for making or marring the future of a British colony which was in urgent need at the present moment. "Shareholders can wait for dividends," said Sir P. Fitzpatrick himself, "but white men cannot wait for bread." Let them not be afraid to face their constituents with the whole story of this thing, and prove, as they could prove up to the hilt, that if the white man was to earn a living wage for himself and his family in the Transvaal, without being reduced to Kaffir work, there must be a huge increase in unskilled labour which at the present time was only forthcoming from China. Let them shatter for ever the idle superstition that "the Transvaal exists and is run for the benefit of German capitalists.'" It was a shameful libel upon any British colony to say that. There were hundreds of Englishmen, Scotchmen, and Irishmen, as honest as the day, living on the Rand, and he pleaded for them and the country they had so largely helped to develop. Those pioneers of British industry and civilisation found the

  37
  Transvaal accessible only by bullock tracks, and they had webbed it with railways; they found there a population which could only find fern wood for fuel, and they now supplied the colony with coal; they found there but a few running streams of water, but there now existed there a network of dams and reservoirs supplemented by an outlay of £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 for water for the Rand. They had tapped the brains of the world for their industry, the harvest was ready but the labourers were few. Therefore he held it to be the duty of the House to help, and not to binder and harass, the prosecution of this work of development by ratifying the Ordinance without delay.
  MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid his hon. friend opposite had addressed the House with his usual clearness. Let it be remembered, however, that all the progress and advancement made in South Africa which the hon. Member had so well described had been accomplished, not by, but without the introduction of foreign labour. He spoke of the dignity of labour, but in the next sentence they discovered what he meant by it. It was consistent in the hon. Member's view, with the dignity of labour that it should be forced. The hon. Member dilated on the morality of the operation of the enforcement of labour, and mentioned that the Directors were the trustees of the shareholders in the mines. He wanted to point out that they in this House of Commons were also trustees—trustees for millions of British subjects and for the cause of liberty. What was the general nature of this Ordinance? It was an Ordinance to facilitate the establishment of a convict settlement mitigated by the chance of a forty-eight hours ticket-of leave. They were to have a Government Inspectorate both in Africa and China, and although this was to be set up in the interests of the mines, he had not yet heard that the mines were to contribute anything towards the expense. This Ordinance appeared to him to be inconsistent with the elementary notions of freedom; and having gone through much of the Blue-books on this subject, he had come to the conclusion that this Ordinance was antagonistic both to white labour in
  38
  South Africa and also to black labour in South Africa.
  His first proposition was that the Government, as such, had in point of fact not inquired into this subject of Chinese labour. Ho would go farther and say that this Government, although apprised of the movement, had deliberately shut the mouths of witnesses who were prepared to give their testimony upon the Chinese labour question. The terms of the reference to the Transvaal Labour Commission were framed carefully and in such a manner that they excluded this question from the Commission. Why was the reference so framed? This was not a new question. Those acquainted with the management of affairs in South Africa were quite familiar with the topic of the importation of Chinese labour. If there was the urgency now claimed and a Commission and machinery ready for inquiry, why was the Chinese question not put under investigation instead of being excluded from the terms of the reference? Why, when there had been a maximum of premeditation in certain quarters outside were they to be left with only a minimum of deliberation in this House? Not only were the terms of reference carefully drawn, but there was also a rigorous suppression of evidence that was ready to hand. He wished to tell the Colonial Secretary frankly that he did not think it made for harmony in the relations of one race to another, to use such language as he employed last night with regard to General Botha, who was spoken of in terms which implied and expressed that he had suppressed evidence. There was a suppression of evidence, but it was not suppression by General Botha, but suppression by the Labour Commission of the evidence of General Botha. General Botha had actually prepared a written statement of the evidence he was willing to lay before the Commission appointed to investigate the shortage of labour; but when he tendered that evidence they declined to receive it. Reference was made by the Colonial Secretary to General Bothadeclhiing to have his views expressed by some other person. What would the right hon. Gentleman have done if a Government Commission had declined to accept his evidence direct? Would he have permitted any man to give it second-hand for him? General Botha was asked if

  39
  he would tell the Commission what in his opinion, would be the effect of importing labour into Natal, and he replied that the best thing he could say in reply would be to read a paragraph from his "statement." Perhaps it would be said that that statement had reference to Natal, and had nothing to do with Chinese labour. But at a later stage of his evidence the matter was cleared up. One of the Commissioners asked why the statement offered by General Botha had not been accepted. Then the Chairman said that statement had been handed to him that morning, and he had had representations made to him. "It was impossible to ask him to delete certain portions of it," said the Chairman, "as it mainly dealt with the question of Chinese labour, which is not before us." With regard to this, all he would say was that it was not in the mouth of the Government which had sanctioned the institution of a Commission so carefully limited, either to hustle the House of Commons, or to make any reflection or suggestion of suppression of evidence against an honourable and distinguished man like General Botha. It stood confessed accordingly that they were doing this thing without any Government inquiry at all. The present policy was one of "hustle." It followed an agitation promoted mostly by skilful, powerful, clever men interested in the development of the mining industry.
  How did this scheme arise? Was the scheme launched from humane and patriotic motives—a scheme having for its main object the benefit of the natives, the colonists, or the country, or the unification of South Africa? No; it was a scheme to reduce on cost, and to increase profits in the mines. Reflections had been made upon General Botha. On the other hand, Sir George Farrar had been defended by the Colonial Secretary. But when evidence came from that quarter he was entitled to ask who Sir George Farrar was? There was a "G. Farrar" who signed the famous forged telegram about the women and children in Johannesburg? Was this the man upon whom this upright Government relied? Was this the man who was sentenced to death for high treason? This would not do. They must examine these testimonies, and bring things home to the people of this country, and inform them that they were again
  40
  being deluded and misled. He would as soon ground a national policy upon the Report of that Labour Commission as he would ground a policy of Imperial finance upon the Report of the Birmingham Tariff Commission. The direction and scheme of the movement had been the same all through, and had been premeditated. How did he prove premeditation before the war? The first proposition in this debate was that there was a shortage of labour, against which all economic efforts were unavailing. They had heard about that before. South Africa got the better of it so far back as 1891. He would quote the opinion of the mining community from the Chamber of Mines report of that year—
  "The mining community has made strong endeavours to relieve itself of this unreasonable burden, hut, standing alone, little can he done, and it is feared the efforts of the mines cannot he much longer sustained if the Volksraad and the Government will do nothing to assist them."
  How alarmist it all read ! Yet in subsequent years the production of those very mines, which could not "be much longer sustained," reached the most fabulous proportions. If all that was a delusion then, why should they now for the first time give way to the cry which had arisen from similar quarters, in a similar interest? What was the essence of the oft attempted scheme? It was an uneconomic proposal to combine a full supply of labour with a reduction of wages. Year after year they found the same attempt being made to force up the supply and at the same time keep down the wages. Take now Report for the year 1892. There it was stated—
  "There appear to your committee but two methods by which the rate of native wages can be reduced. One by combination among employers, the other by the introduction of an adequate supply of labour."
  Coming to the Report for the year 1894, it states—
  "Two main objects have been kept in view. The principal one the maintenance of supply, the second the reduction of the rate of wages."
  Unhappily for these schemes there was at the time a Boer Government in power which would not assent to those proposals in so far as they involved the forcing of labour. In 1895 the President was called upon at Pretoria with that

  41
  object, "wlio would not, however, consent to the employment of coercion." This apparently occurred in the Spring of 1895, and in the end of 1895 they had the Jameson Raid. It failed; and, after order was restored, the same scheme, culminating in this Ordinance, was resumed. Yet in 1897 and 1898 they found a marvellous change. Order had been restored, and to the surprise of the mine-owners themselves, the supply of labour began to exceed the demand, and down went wages for a time. Were they content? Not at all. Instead of making the supply equate with the demand, and the demand of the mine-owners equate with the supply, the mining industry was worked to its utmost limit, and in the end of 1898 a new shortage, on account of the great development of the industry again appeared. The coercion of labour could not be hoped for, and then in 1899 they had war. Such was the sequence of events, and what a story it was ! This was a project from beginning to end to lower wages and raise profits, and a scheme to do that regardless of the ordinary economic conditions of South Africa.
  He thought he had proved his point as to the reduction of wages, but his second point was settled in a somewhat curious way by the party which was now agitating for this Ordinance. It was settled shortly after the war, on 25th October. 1900, when the Chamber of Mines reported that the schedule of wages in existence prior to the war had been abandoned and instead of about £4 per month a scale with a minimum of 30s. and a maximum of 35s. per month had been adopted. If that reduction of wages had not taken place one large element of the very difficulties which had been the excuse for this Ordinance would, in his opinion, have disappeared. The natives had had every inducement to go elsewhere. There was unsettlement over half the continent and an enormous demand for military assistance. The drafting of men from the mines was in part because they got better pay during military operations. Could this Government not wait for anything? Here they were only at the beginning of 1904, and after the war in South Africa, was nothing to be allowed to the recuperative powers of nature or the healing influences of time?
  42
  General Botha's view as to these was accepted by the large majority of the white people of South Africa, both Dutch and British. In the period he referred to, British money was being spilled like water, first over a system of military operations, and secondly in restoring the havoc and devastation caused by the war. Why should they, during a period of transition such as he had described, be hustled into adopting an Ordinance which was repugnant to the feelings of the British people? General Botha had stated that the Kaffirs wore returning and, "while six months ago I could not obtain a single Kaffir I have now from thirty to thirty-five." General Botha agreed that the present state of things with regard to shortage of labour was exceptional and was brought about by the abnormal condition of things after the war. Patience was what was required: above all things, patience. Now the efforts made to carry this Ordinance were characterised in the first place by threats: in the second place by a determined suppression and distortion of public and; private opinion: thirdly, by a complete regard for the gold industry; and fourthly, by a lack of due regard for British interests and for human freedom. Some curious things occurred in regard to these threats. They were expressed as follows in the Majority Report—
  "A certain development in the main industry of the country beyond the point reached in 1899 must take place or they must adopt the logical alternative of revising the position of the whole country."
  What did that mean? If a Boer Assembly had used that language they would have all been up for sedition or high treason. The Report went on to state—
  "An industry of this magnitude must advance or fall back; the advance is impossible without the solution of the labour difficulty, and a set back would upset the equilibrium, not only of the Transvaal but of the whole of the South African Colonies."
  What equilibrium? Finanical equilibrium or political equilibrium? He did not like to hear language of that kind; and he viewed with considerable disfavour any body of men who would venture to put that before the British Crown. There had been a suppression and distortion of private and public opinion. They had

  43
  heard of a letter from Mr. Tarbutt, but what happened to the man who produced Mr. Tarbutt's letter? The letter which appeared in the Star of Johannesburg on 19th November, 1903, showed the unscrupulous tactics adopted by the mine-owners; and Mr. Creswell was told that at a meeting of his directors great surprise was expressed at the tenor of his evidence ! Then came the whole sordid and dishonouring story which culminated in the dismissal of this man who had told the truth and who had produced a most damning piece of evidence against the gold mining speculators. They were asked to trust the Chamber of Mines; but if any of the members of that Chamber had so dealt with Mr. Creswell with reference to the evidence given before a Committee of this House, the Chamber of Mines might have been condemned to a convict settlement though without a forty-eight hours ticket-of-leave. One of Mr. Creswell's complaints was that in giving his evidence he was not permitted to go into the general state of the mines in the neighbourhood. Take next the case of Mr. Monypenny. With regard to Mr. Monypenny he confessed he heard with great surprise what the Colonial Secretary said about him. He admitted the right of the mine-owners to dismiss Mr. Monypenny; but he asked the House to consider his position. Here was a man who wrote what he knew was unpopular with his employers, and he thought that was a man the House of Commons would willingly rely upon. He said—
  "For twelve or fifteen months the Star has consistently opposed the policy to which the Chamber of Mines has now committed itself. We have opposed it because, on general principles, we have no faith in shore cuts to prosperity or in mechanical solutions of organic problems. We have opposed it because we are convinced that no real trial has been given to the alternatives, and that this policy is a policy of despair only to be tolerated when every other expedient has failed. It is a deliberate attempt to arrest, and, in the interests of impatience, artificially to reverse a process of evolution whose results are already beginning to be visible, and which promises in the course of time to emancipate South Africa from that complete dependence on inferior coloured labour which has hitherto limited its development."
  Further on he said—
  "The financial houses, in whom in the present instance, those rights are vested, have chosen one side of the question, the Editor of the
  44
  'Star' has chosen the other; and as from either point of view the question is of the first importance the position has now become impossible. To the policy of Chinese immigration, to which the Chamber of Mines has decided to vote its energy, the present Editor of the Star remains absolutely opposed and declines in any way to identity himself with such an experiment. To the ideal of a white South Africa, which, to whatever qualifications it may necessarily be subject, is something very different from the ideal of a Chinese South Africa, he resolutely (dings with perfect faith that, whatever its enemies may do to-day that, ideal will inevitably prevail. But as the financial houses which control the mining industry of the Transvaal have for the present enrolled themselves among its enemies the present Editor of the Star withdraws."
  Was he not right in saying that those Gentlemen were adepts in the art of suppressing and distorting both private and public opinions?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): My hon. friend says that I threw discredit upon Mr. Monypenny. I certainly did not do so and I did not say a word to that effect.
  MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid he had accepted to the full the statement of his right hon. friend. What he meant was that when they had a man in Mr. Monypenny's position willing to sacrifice his position for his testimony his opinions deserved far higher credit than they had received. They had reached a state of things when the evidence of the Commission was deprived of all weight whatever. The Commission had packed and unpacked the witness box: and as for public opinion, he would as soon take the verdict of Park Lane on democracy or set himself to study some new pamphlet on "Liberty from a financial point of view." Those cases—Creswell and Monypenny—were instances of how this poison was working. Upon the force of attraction (after all, a plain and peaceful economic force) the Report said—
  "There are nevertheless, many other elements in the problem. Viewed, for example, from the standpoint of what may be called the attractive forces, the supply is affected by such elements as rate of wages, working condition, nature of treatment by employers, "cheap and rapid means of communication and so forth."
  "This conclusion appears to be well founded, but as the effect of wages is merely attractive and not coercive the probable result of the reduction of wages by the mines was merely to

  45
  cause the majority to seek employment in other industries where the wages were higher."
  "Attractive and not coercive" this would never do. Yet it was the key to their attitude towards black labour. But what was their position with regard to white labour? He remembered a speech of the ex-Colonial Secretary at Cannock Chase in 1900, and he wanted to know if under this Ordinance they were realising the magnificent ideal that "the war was a miners' war," and had been undertaken in order that justice might be done to the British miners in the Transvaal.
  The critical nature of the circumstances had been spoken of. But where did the urgency alleged by the Colonial Secretary come in? He found that in January, 1903, there was produced in the Transvaal an output of 199,000 oz. of fine gold, and in January, 1904, this same hard-up, poorly-equipped Colony produced 288,000 oz., equal to £1,226,000 in one month, or at the rate of £14,750,000 sterling in one year. What more did any one want? Lord Milner said there was complete stagnation, that people were out of work, and that there was an emigration of white people going on, that a crisis was impending. This was very dreadful; but we had grown rather sceptical of and callous to such appeals, for the simple reason that they were familiar with the very same language with reference to Great Britain. They knew it all already. There was a strange family likeness in this language on the part of men in this country and in Africa, whose end and aim seemed to be high-priced food at home and low-priced labour in the Colony. If a Colony, after such a war, was not content with the steady rise in its output of gold which he had described it was hard to please. What did Imperalists think now about the "march of Empire," about the "pegging out of claims," about "equal rights?" Was the language too strong which in earlier days had denounced the lust of gold and the machinations of a gang of capitalists? He spoke not without book. Mr. Tarbutt, in his letter to Mr. Creswell, said that he—
  "Had consulted the Consolidated Gold Fields people and one of the members of the board of the Village Main Reef had consulted Messrs. Wernher, Beit, and Co.," and "the feeling seems to be one of fear that, having a large
  46
  number of white men employed on the Hand in the position of labourers, the same troubles will arise as are now Pervalent in Australia—viz., that the combination of the labouring classes will become so strong as to be able to dictate, not only on the question of wages, but also on political questions," etc.
  These magnates were the enemies of white labour; and this Ordinance gave effective shape to their designs. The hon. Member for Bermondsey referred to "whites of foreign origin," and poured contempt upon them when they were "poor." For his part, if he were asked whether South Africa had suffered more from poor whites of foreign origin than from rich whites of foreign origin, he should have his doubts.
  The substance of this Ordinance was the importation and detention of human beings under a condition of non-citizenship. He desired to state emphatically that he declined to recognise in a free country or free Empire a condition of non-citizenship. Look at the Colonial Secretary's description of the country for which we had spent and suffered so much and where they were told that the condition of things was so rotten that even a navvy got bored with it and had to leave. The fabric of society in the Transvaal was so ramshackle that, according to the Colonial Secretary, it required to be underpinned with Chinese labour. But there were to be oases in the desert, the establishment of little Arcadias, euphemistically described as Chinese villages. How consolatory to the lover of freedom ! Think of the privileges of the inhabitants of those villages? short hours? high pay? advancement to every high grade of employment and life easy for these blessed inhabitants? In every line of the Ordinance was there respect and reverence for that ideal of the British people, which happened to be the cause of liberty? Well, perhaps not all this, perhaps not any of it. But by special reminder of the Chinese Government, the lash was to be forbidden. What a mockery it all was ! If the Boers had imposed such conditions upon any human being every Jingo in this country would have fanned the flames of war in the names of civilisation, liberty, and humanity. His hon. friend the Member for Bermondsey said, in one of those topsy-turvy sentences of

  47
  his, that Downing Street had been the curse of that land. The hon. Member need not be afraid. The headquarters of the Government were being removed to Park Lane.
  "The strongest castle, tower, or town,
  The golden bullet beats it down."
  This Government, whatever its many virtues, could not be described as a strong Government. How long, however, were the British people going to stand this? He wished his right hon. friend—he said it from his heart, and with all respect for him—had had the courage to put his foot down to Lord Milner. Let him assure his right hon. friend, if it was not too late—to do it, that if he would only resist the malign influences which were behind this measure—influences which were inimical to the working classes and to every class in this country—and if he would only refuse this Ordinance, he would have behind him the voice of a liberty-loving and absolutely undivided people.
  SIR JOHN ROLLESTONsaid that although he must admit that in his constituency the only public expression of opinion that he had heard on this matter was favourable to this Amendment, he thought that the issues were somewhat confused and capable perhaps of explanation. In the first place, a rather unreasoning prejudice against the shareholders in the gold mines, of whom, however, he was not one, induced many people to object to any support at all being given to the gold industry. Secondly, a prejudice, equally unreasoning he thought, against any form of time-bargain with foreign labourers, inclined many others, perhaps unthinkingly, to regard such a proposal as the indication of a system of slavery. It seemed to be considered by many people that gold got out of the earth was won solely for the profit of the proprietors of the mines. This could not be the case. The Transvaal people, the Transvaal land, and the commerce of South Africa wanted this gold primarily, and subsequently all the gold-using countries wanted it. This country itself had, in the past, experienced periods of both prosperity and adversity owing to the fertility or sterility of the gold mines and deposits. Agricultural
  48
  and commercial depression experienced a marvellous rebound some fifty or sixty years ago from the gold discoveries of California and Australia. Then these deposits becoming again exhausted, a period of comparative depression set in, until at last renewed prosperity appeared to be in sight owing to the recent discoveries in South Africa and Western Australia. The annual yield of gold went up some five years ago to an aggregate of, he believed, £60,000,000, the largest known in the history of the world and it seemed as though prosperity was about to be experienced from this vitalising and fertilising flow. Then came the war, and the stoppage of mining operations. The yield went down again. The gold crop, though in sight, could not be gathered in, and that, it seemed, was somewhat the situation to-day.
  He submitted that more gold was wanted for every trade purpose to-day not only in South Africa but in this country, and that any check to its being obtained was a check to the prosperity of this country. We wanted gold to pay for our food supplies in time of war, when the course of trade and the ordinary exchange of commodities was disturbed or stopped, but there was no supply in sight. The City of London certainly wanted more gold. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking there recently, asked the great municipalities to bank the fires of their progress, to suspend their operations, and not to make further demands upon the supply of gold which was in an attenuated condition, even in this the great financial centre of the world. Coming from the Finance Minister that was indeed a significant admission.
  MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.): What about himself. Why does not he economise something
  SIR JOHN ROLLESTONsaid he could not speak for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he could only quote what the right hon. Gentleman said. He was well aware that the trade of this country was conducted upon a huge system of credit, and that the metal gold was seldom seen in business transactions; but though unseen it exercised a vast influence on those transactions. Gold was the base

  49
  of that superstructure of credit, and the base must bear a proportion to the superstructure. Gold was the only money in this country—the only metal which the public could pass through the Mint at will, and it was the only legal tender when coined. In proportion as this money abounded was prosperity felt in the occupations and enterprises of men. The amount of gold it would exchange for was the measure of value of all property. Money was as necessary as bread, while it was the law of the land that bread must be purchased with money. And so, in a gold country like this, when the mines of the world were not fertile, the want of gold was generally felt. The owner of Consols felt it, as the amount of gold for which he could exchange his property got less; the owners of all other securities felt it; the banker felt it; he could not lend so freely as before and so enterprise was chocked. The alteration or enlargement was not carried out, expenses were cut down, and so the discouraging effect of gold scarcity was felt throughout the whole community, until it might result in scarcity of employment, and perhaps want of food amongst the people. The war might have had some effect as well on the scarcity of gold, as large sums had had to be sent to foreign centres for supplies, but that did not affect his argument that an increased supply of gold could remedy the situation. A gold yield again of £60,000,000 annually, or more, would alter it, and he desired that again, or a larger yield. In view of the greater number of countries which were now using gold a much larger yield was required. It was not always that gold was in sight when it was scarce, but it was in sight in South Africa, and he hoped that nothing might be done, in this country, to prevent this harvest from being reaped by difficulties being placed in the way of our colonies obtaining harvesters.
  With regard to the importation of Chinese it really seemed as if some people imagined that under the suzerainty of the British Crown the cruelties practised by the followers of Cortez and Pizarro in Mexico and Peru were to be expected in South Africa. But the African native was free, and if he did not want to sell his labour no one could compel him; but if he had a distaste for work, and could live
  50
  without it, why should other labourers be prevented from taking his place? Labourers who, although Asiatics, were willing to come, wanted to come for a period of service, for the sake of the wage at the end of it. He would undertake to say that their life in South Africa would be happier and more prosperous than in China. Mining, especially in deep levels, was, he believed, not an agreeable form of labour, and if Chinese coolies were willing to do this dirty work, which even the African native turned up his nose at, it seemed to him insulting to white workmen to contend that it should be kept for them. While, of course, not defending the compulsory importation of African slaves into the cotton and sugar plantations of North America, yet it was clear that these crops could not have been planted or harvested without this, and that were it not for this huge imported negro population, now free, that harvest even now could not be gathered in. The prosperity of the United States had been largely contributed to by these black labourers, who did work which white men could not and did not want to do. History, therefore, showed that there had been occasions when the importation of labour, even from another hemisphere, had been economically useful to mankind, and although the cruelties of the earlier methods were to be much deplored, yet a voluntary bargain of mutual benefit might well be defended to-day. There were objections to many great industries even in this country—some sanctimonious and some practical—the demoralised condition of some they saw written about in the public Press. Some people objected to the establishment of collieries, as the smoke and dust fouled the country side, and the advent of a mining population was stated to demoralise the peasantry. But these great works must go on: the treasures of the earth must be won; and while the laws of civilised nations were that before a man could eat or drink, or clothe himself, he must have gold, it followed that the winning of gold was probably the most important industrial operation on this planet, and should not be discouraged, in deference even to the exaggerated fears and nervous qualms either of the Episcopal or the Nonconformist conscience. He had always understood that in the search for and

  51
  getting of gold more money and lives were lost than in any other industry. But the gambler's spirit kept the game up, and, although the motive of the searcher and getter might be base and sordid, yet his efforts might go to the ultimate benefit of mankind. In any case, in South Africa, the harvest was ripe and the labourers were ready; and in view of the great benefit which an increased production of gold might confer on this and other countries he, for one, hoped that no action of this House might defer, interrupt, or check that output, and in this view he was afraid that he was unable to support the Amendment.
  CAPTAIN ELLICE (St. Andrews Burghs)said he very much regretted that the first two Motions on which he had been called upon to vote in the House concerned protection and slavery. The hon. Member who last spoke gave the House a very pleasant idea of the country in which he wished to live, stating that gold was more necessary than food. He had no desire to live in a country of that sort. The hon. Member had also told them that gold had been sent out of this country to pay for the war. As a matter of fact, there was more gold in the country now than there was three or four years ago. He wished to support the Amendment on three grounds. In the first place, he objected to the manner in which this agitation for the importation of Chinese labour had been raised. He himself had absolutely no faith in the Labour Commission. He had heard a description of Sir George Farrar given by the hon. Member for the Hawick Burghs, he did not know whether that description was correct or not, but he knew that at least five members of the Labour Commission were members of the Chamber of Mines in Johannesburg, and if the Government had wished to have a proper Commission to examine into the question of the scarcity of labour in the Transvaal, they should have taken the trouble to appoint men absolutely above suspicion. In the second place, he had no reason to believe that, with time, a sufficient amount of labour would not be forthcoming. The Report of the Labour Commission pointed to several causes which might have influenced the supply of labour. One particular cause of shortage not mentioned in the debate
  52
  was the untrustworthiness of the recruiting agents employed. In his evidence before the Commission, Mr. Samuelson, Under-Secretary for Native Affairs in Natal stated that "he felt that if the flow of native labour could be directed to Johannesburg or towards any other part of South Africa without the use of these recruiting agents, it would be a good thing for the natives themselves." Mr. Samuelson added that there was no reason to believe there was a shortage of native labour, and that there was Kaffir labour in Natal capable of going to the support of the Transvaal. The same witness was questioned by the Chairman as to the statement in the Blue-book that in the South African states there were 201,640 natives employed but that the total of able-bodied men available was only 164,000, so that there were actually 40,000 more employed than the total of able-bodied men ! Mr. Samuelson replied that he disapproved at the time that statement was made; he did not agree with that statement personally. This was evidence that the House would not accept the Report of the Labour Commission. The statements were in several instances not true. His third ground of objection was that the principle was wrong. In a letter in that morning's Times it was objected that the Opposition view of the case was the "Exeter Hall view." He was quite ready to accept the "Exeter Hall view." The hon. Member for Leicester had described the Opposition as supporting the exaggerated opinion of the Episcopal and Nonconformist conscience. It was high time that that opinion should be heard in the House of Commons. The Colonial Secretary had said he regretted the necessity for the Ordinance and had described it as a last resort in face of the terrible state of the Transvaal. If it were a last resort, it was an extremely bad one. They had heard a good deal about the investors in the mines. In common with many hon. Members he himself had invested in the mines, and he had it on the authority of bankers that there was hardly a cottager a shopkeeper, or a householder in the United Kingdom who was not at present interested in these properties. But he believed there was not a man in this country who would not be ready to wait until the Transvaal were developed and be

  53
  prepared for a time to forego his dividends rather than give his consent to this abominable scheme for the introduction of indentured Chinese labour into the Transvaal.
  LORD ALWYNE COMPTONsaid that the question before the House was perhaps of the very greatest importance that had ever been brought before it in this generation. From whatever standpoint they looked at it the consequences might be fraught with the very gravest results. The ground of discussion had been so care fully travelled over by previous speakers, and the able and exhaustive speech of the Colonial Secretary, the previous night, had disposed so effectually of all the arguments with which the Amendment had been supported, that he should not have intervened in the debate had it not been that he himself had a peculiar interest in this great question—an interest derived from the fact that at the time of the South African War, for several months, it was his duty to be at Johannesburg; and at that time it was also his duty to take a part under Martial Law in the administration of justice. He was made a Justice of the Peace at Johannesburg, and therefore was brought in contact with the conditions of native life in that city. The questions which so many Members had asked, and which no doubt the country would ask, were as to the shortage of labour, whether every effort had really been made to obtain Kaffir labour on the East Coast, and whether any genuine effort had been made to test the employment of British workmen. He would answer these questions very shortly. It was quite self-evident that the enormous initial expense which it would cost the mine-owners to obtain Chinese labour, was a sufficient answer to the question as to whether every effort had not been exhausted in order to find native black labour, which there was no doubt they would have infinitely preferred if they could obtain it. Then, with regard to the question of the employment of British workmen, might he say—for it came within his own experience—and the House of Commons was always most ready to listen to the personal experience of any Member on any matter—that
  54
  a brother officer and a friend of his was in command of 1,000 men during the war. At the conclusion of the war, by the law of the survival of the fittest, there were 130 of these men who desired to remain in South Africa, and his friend took the ordinary methods of endeavouring to find places for them. He went to Lord Milner, who referred him to Mr. Creswell. That gentleman made an offer to employ these 130 men and pay them 5s. a day with free food and lodging, and 10s. a day if they found for themselves. His friend went back to the men with that proposition; and the one answer they gave was that they did not think that labour in the mines would suit them. His friend said that it would give them occupation for a time, and that when things settled down they might be able to get other and better work. Yet only one man out of the 130 accepted the offer, and he only remained in Mr. Creswell's employment for one month, then giving it up. Hon. Gentlemen would read a letter in that day's Times from Lord Lovat, giving a similar experience. That showed that as far as these men were concerned they could not be tempted, under the conditions, to work in the mines.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid there were hundreds of white men employed in unskilled labour on the Rand at present.
  LORD ALWYNE COMPTONsaid that Mr. Creswell's experiment was made with a view to ascertaining whether white labour was practicable in the mines at all; and in order, at the same time, to give employment to soldiers who desired to remain in the country. Mr. Creswell's effort was a failure. It seemed to him that the arguments brought forward in support of the Amendment showed very great weakness, because they depended entirely on accusations of mala fides against all interested in the matter. The arguments were also characterised by great exaggeration of language, indeed he might say by a hopelessly ridiculous exaggeration of language. He thought that every speaker in support of the Amendment used, for motives into which he would not inquire, the word "slavery." He wished to analyse that word. What did slavery mean? As far as his limited intelligence went slavery

  55
  meant a state in which one person was bound to another for life in servitude or bondage, from which he could not escape. Any ordinary intelligent man would take that view. But how did that compare with the proposition under the Ordinance? The Chinaman was to be asked whether he wished to go to the Transvaal or not; he was not to be compelled to go unless he wished; and he would be told the conditions under which he was to go. Hon. Gentlemen opposite said that the Chinaman would not be told, but of course he would. Further, he would be allowed to take his wife and children with him; and on arrival in South Africa he was to be an inhabitant of a village planned by experts and in that village he would live in the same conditions as the Kaffir now lived in the Transvaal. He would earn higher wages than he would be able to obtain in his own country, and eventually he would be enabled to return to China, at the expiration of his service, a richer man than he left it. Was it not, therefore, an exaggeration of language to call that slavery? Could it be compared to the conditions under which the Kaffirs lived in compounds before the war? Was that slavery? If it was slavery, why did not the great Liberal Party, which hung like a load on all who went to the war, pat the soldiers on the back and tell them they were fighting for the emancipation of slaves. No doubt hon. Gentlemen would not only use the word "slavery" in the House but on every platform in the country; and he only wished his voice could spread throughout the country in order to combat such an exaggerated view. Another question was. What did the soldiers who fought in the war think? The hon. Gentleman the Member for North Camberwell asked that question last night. He thought hon. Gentlemen opposite would be wise in not repeating it. He had served in the British Army for seventeen years, and he knew that soldiers had oftentimes very inconvenient memories. The soldiers who fought in South Africa remembered 1881. The hon. Gentleman last evening said that the soldiers were fighting under the emblem of freedom; but the emblem of freedom in 1881 was not allowed to remain unsullied. Many of the soldiers who fought in the late war were more intelligent than hon. Gentlemen opposite imagined; and they fully
  56
  recognised that it was the great mistake of 1881 that was the direct result of war in 1899. If the soldiers were asked what was the cause of the war in South Africa, they would answer simply and justly that it was the insulting ultimatum which directed the late Queen to remove Her own troops from her own colony.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid it would be convenient to know whether hon. Gentlemen in this debate were entitled to discuss the cause and the reasons for the late war. If they were the debate would take some time.
  MR. SPEAKER: I did not interrupt the noble Lord because I understood that he was replying briefly to a casual observation of the hon. Member for Camberwell; but I should have stopped him if he proceeded further.
  LORD ALWYNE COMPTONsaid he wished to apologise for the digression, but he felt very warmly on the subject. Another argument used in the debate was that the mine-owners wished to get rid of British workmen. An hon. Gentleman stated last evening that the output of gold on the Rand at present was equal to the output before the war. He challenged that statement. The output was nothing like what it was before the war. The number of stamps working before the war was 7,345, now there were only 4,310 working. That was the true test as to the relative output. He had not any prejudice against mine-owners. He knew a great many of them, and he knew that they were very honourable men, carrying on a perfectly legitimate and honourable industry. It appeared, however, to be assumed that the accusation of mala fides against the mine-owners was true: but even that did not alter the facts of the case as regarded gold in South Africa.
  What was the position? It was almost a truism to say that it was to the advantage of South Africa that its stores of gold should be distributed throughout the world as quickly as possible. If gold for the use of the world did not come from South Africa it must come from somewhere else. He also thought it was beyond doubt that there were undeveloped parts of

  57
  South Africa which showed immense stores of gold which could only be developed by the use of money, and that money could not be made in South Africa without the development of the mines in South Africa already in existence. He thought the debate on the fiscal policy would have taught the dullest that we must pay for our imports by our exports, and nobody would deny that gold was one of the best exports we could have. We had gold in South Africa which the present stagnation prevented from being extracted from the mines. The greater the stream of gold from South Africa the greater would be our exports into that country in the shape of machinery and all other commodities. Cape Colony was an object lesson in this respect. Everybody knew the rapidity with which that country developed on the discovery of diamonds. The same argument applied all over the world—New South Wales, Australia, and California. New countries progressed slowly and surely, and it was only when there was a great discovery of precious metals or precious stones that they developed by leaps and bounds. Hon. Members opposite might think it better that South Africa should develop slowly, but he did not hold that view. He agreed with those who had said the great fault of our administration in South Africa had been that we had never been able to accept the opinion and advice, of our councillors there. He hoped we were not going to repeat that mistake now. Hon. Members opposite were content to rely on the belated manifestoes of the Boer leaders, and such inferences as they drew, but he was not. He based his opinion and was content to rely on the opinion of Lord Milner and Sir Arthur Lawley. He was content to rely on the fact that the great men of the Transvaal desired the importation of Chinese labour, and he believed, if this Amendment was carried, it would result, not only in further stagnation, but in all probability in the future ruin of the country.
  MR. WILLIAM McARTHURsaid that having lived a great part of his life in Australia, he and had opportunities of observing the conditions under which Chinese lived in large towns there, and the effect which
  58
  they had on the white population. Australia, as much as any part of the Empire, shared in the great development of the Imperial idea. With that idea he did not quarrel in the least. But on what did they base their conception of the Imperial idea, They in that House had always studiously maintained that, wherever England acquired territory or authority over native races, she owed a duty to those races, and it had been the constant effort of English statesmen, even at the risk of not leaving her colonies quite free, in her dealings with native races to see that native labour in native territories under the dominion of the King, should be conducted under decent conditions. To go further than that, the House had repeatedly interfered with self-governing colonies with regard to those conditions. Whatever, therefore, might be said as to the justice of the Colonies managing their own affairs, the House could not divest itself of its inherent authority or responsibility in regard to the treatment of native races in territories under the British Crown. Australia made stringent regulations of her own, and submitted to the Imperial Government that these regulations should be made still more stringent, and within the last year or so we had seen a still greater development of the inherent dislike in Australia to the importation of alien races. One of the first actions of the Federal Parliament of Australia was to decree that imported labour should cease. So that, from the general point of view, Australian sentiment would be absolutely opposed to the importation of Chinese into the Transvaal, and he considered that the people in Australia had a peculiar claim upon us in this instance. If we were to estimate the value of attachment by the sacrifices made by our colonies in the recent war, surely no opinion had a better claim to be tried than the unanimous opinion of Australia and New Zealand in this matter. Although he had no title to say he represented Australia, he was perfectly certain that he spoke the practically unanimous opinion of every man and woman in Australia when he said he looked upon the proposal of the Government with horror and detestation; because Australians knew from experience what it meant. They had had Chinese coolies among them for years and years,

  59
  but happily the evil was greatly diminished now, and he hoped it was within still further process of diminution. The result of Australian experience had been that they regarded the importation of Chinese in a large white community as a moral plague spot which ought to be stopped if possible. The Colonial Secretary the previous night, unintentionally he was sure, was somewhat unfair to the Australian view of this question. The right hon. Gentleman treated it as if it were a question of wages. It was by no means a question of wages or the competition of labour. The Chinaman in Australia did not compete very largely in the general labour market. The Australian objection to the importation of Chinamen was that it constituted a moral plague spot which the citizens were anxious and determined to get rid of. We were constantly boasting, and with truth, that whenever we took into our charge the affairs of a native colony we had done our best to raise the moral tone and the whole standard of life of those communities, and it was one of the proudest boasts of this country that in the main we had been successful. But how could anybody say we were doing nothing to lower the moral tone of the community in carrying out such a proposal as was now before the House? In his judgment it was not an Imperial idea to import into South Africa an alien race bringing almost every possible Eastern vice into a Western community. He declined to discuss the question from the point of view whether the mines could make money with Chinese labour and not with white labour. If we were to follow up the Imperial idea we ought to take account of the almost universal sentiment of white colonists against such a measure, and it was because he had seen the infinite evil which might occur from an aggregation of Chinese amongst a Western population that he urgently pressed upon every Member of the House that he had a direct responsibility in this matter. Speaking for himself, he would as soon be responsible for introducing the plague into the City of London as have any part or lot in assenting to the introduction of what would be a moral plague-spot into the community of South Africa.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he never remembered in the twenty-one years of his Membership of this House a matter of such serious importance, such widespread influence, being considered in debate in so light and airy a manner. In spite of what had been said by hon. Gentlemen opposite, this question resolved itself into the question of whether, after all these years, slavery was to be reintroduced into the British Empire. What was the attitude of the Government upon the matter. It was perfectly scandalous that the Government Bench should be in the condition it was. The Government were conspicuous by absence. It was the same on the previous day. Hardly a Minister deigned to put in an appearance at all, and during the course of the discussion which was at present taking place there had never been more than three or four Members on the Treasury Bench, and they were gentlemen who had never been men of first-rat-importance, or men who had occupied great positions. Whatever view might be taken, the matter was one of sufficient importance to command the attention and appearance of the Government, which it did not appear to have done. He had listened with great pleasure to the speech of the hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench (Mr. McArthur), and could agree in the fullest manner with what the hon. Gentleman said as to the attitude of the Commonwealth of Australia in this matter. He had been permitted to judge of the colonial sentiment in the many visits he had made to that country, and could bear out what had been said with such effect by his hon. friend. The attitude of official Australia was strongly against the introduction of Chinese labour in South Africa. We had had experience of gold mining all over the world, and there was not a gold mine in the world which white men could not be found to undertake the working of. He could quite understand the proposal to introduce Chinese labour, if it could be shown that it was the last resource to keep the mines open, receiving the emphatic support of hon. Gentlemen like the noble Lord the Member for Biggleswade, who might be somewhat biassed by the fact that he owned so many shares in South African securities, and who said Chinese labour was a necessity. It was said that

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  Chinese labour was a necessity, but he believed that if the facts were laid clearly before the House, it would be seen that the mines could pay enormous profits, even though they employed white labour at reasonable wages. That being so, why were not white men obtained? As to the alleged impossibility of replacing by white men the Kaffirs who left the mines through the war, the country wanted to know what honest attempts had been made in that direction with the offer of reasonable terms. The fact was that no real attempt had been made. There were thousands of Englishmen, Scotchmen, and Irishmen who would be glad to go to South Africa if proper wages were given. He did not say that they could be supplied wholesale so rapidly as the Chinese, but it was capable of proof that, if a sincere attempt were made, tens of thousands of honest white labouring men would be prepared to undertake the work on terms which would still leave the mine-owners an enormous profit.
  In view of the present situation in the Far East, it was somewhat surprising that Tory Members should indulge in such language as had been used in the course of the debate with reference to the populations of other European countries. Italian workmen had been spoken of as "white trash," whose character and habits were so low that Chinese were preferable to them. That was hardly the way in which the white subjects of a friendly Power should be referred to. There was really no necessity to import members of different European races. If only the mine-owners were half as earnest in getting white men as they were in bringing about the recent war, it would be quite possible to secure the necessary supply. It was cruel and heart-breaking to be told that in order to work the mines in a British possession, the acquisition of which had cost the country millions of money and tens of thousands of lives, men were to be imported from China under conditions which amounted to semi-slavery. In London itself could be found numbers of able-bodied men willing and anxious to work to keep their wives and families from starvation, and yet the Government and the millionaires of Park Lane, instead of attempting to draft such men to South Africa, were to
  62
  import at £8 a head Chinamen to do work which could be better done by white men if only they were given the opportunity of doing it. A balance-sheet, showing the difference between employing white men at standard wages and Chinese labour would afford interesting reading, and he believed it would show that the mine-owners, not satisfied with owning the mines and making enormous profits, actually grudged the wages of the workmen. That was really an infamous state of affairs. Whatever might be the opinion of the soldiers who fought in the war, there would be but one opinion among the vast majority of the working people who paid the £250,000,000 which the war cost—viz., that it was a disgrace that the first, and apparently the only, result of the struggle was the introduction, under the British flag, of a system of forced labour. Even those in favour of the proposal might agree that there was no immediate hurry in the matter. The members of the Transvaal Labour Commission might have been eminently qualified for the task they had to perform, but certainly their findings had not satisfied people generally that the whole of the facts had been brought to light, and before a final decision was arrived at there should be a fresh, thorough, and impartial inquiry into the whole question. The Government, however, would not accept that proposal, because the essence of the matter was that it should be hustled through without further inquiry. From every point of view the proposal was an innovation of a startling character; it was the introduction of slavery in almost its worst form. The noble Lord opposite objected to the term "slavery."
  LORD ALWYNE COMPTONsaid his argument was that the conditions under which the Kaffirs lived before the war would obtain.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDreminded the House that the alleged object of the war was to give equality and freedom to all men under the British flag in South Africa, and now the noble Lord justified this proposal by saying that before the war slavery of a similar kind existed under the reign of Mr. Kruger. He declined to follow a bad example, whether

  63
  set by Mr. Kruger or anybody else, and, in any case, it was no justification for setting up slavery in the British Empire. To-day hon. Members were to be asked by their votes to say that slavery would be allowed in a large portion of the British Empire. At elections in this country a favourite episode was the singing of "Britons never shall be slaves." That cry had floated hon. Gentlemen opposite into this House. After the vote which they would give to-night they should change their song—
  "Rule Britannia, Britannia money saves,
  By kicking Britons out of work for Chinese slaves."
  He thought they would find that version of the song would not be so popular at election meetings. His hands were clean in this matter. He had no reason to love the British Empire. The Nationalists of Ireland had not been so very kindly dealt with by the British Government, and they were not in the slightest degree interested for the reputation of the Empire and for the Flag being unstained and unsullied. What they were interested in, and what their countrymen throughout the world were interested in, was the cause of human freedom and liberty. In the division tonight he and his hon. friends would vote for freedom and liberty. From the point of view of men who had no great love for the British Empire, he thought they should be rather pleased at the trend of events. As far as one could see, things were going badly for the British Empire at present. Lord Roberts had been dismissed from the War Office, and his place had been taken by one of the Gentlemen opposite. Now they were to have slavery in one of the newly acquired British colonies. He believed that the effect of this measure would be disastrous in the extreme, and that before many years passed it would cause a disruption in South Africa far greater than that caused by the late war. He hoped it would stand on record that the representatives of Ireland voted unanimously against the proposal.
  LORD ALWYNE COMPTON: With the permission of the House I should like to make a personal explanation. I understand that during my absence from the House the hon. Member who has just sat down referred to the speech I had lately
  64
  made, and said that I was biassed because I held so many mining shares. I desire to say that I hold no shares of any sort or kind in South African mines.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: The noble Lord, I am sure, does not wish to misrepresent what I said. I never said that he had any mining shares in South Africa. What I said was that the noble Lord had shares in South African concerns. Unless I am misinformed—and if I am I withdraw the statement and express my regret for having made it—the noble Lord formerly possessed, if he does not now possess. 5,000 shares in the Chartered Company.
  LORD ALWYNE COMPTON: I never held 5,000 shares in the Chartered Company, and I have no shares now. [An HON. MEMBER: Or any shares.] I have no shares.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: If that is the case I withdraw the statement.
  SIR H. MEYSEY-THOMPSONsaid he had paid considerable attention to the question of Chinese labour in California, which he visited in 1873. Chinese labourers had just finished the Pacific Railway, and they were engaged in other forms of unskilled work. Everyone at that time said it would have been impossible for the railway to have been made, and for California to have made the progress it had, but for Chinese labour. If the accusations made against the Chinese had been true British Columbia would not have admitted them in the numbers they had done. If they were such a dreadful people as they were said to be objection would be taken to them there. The fact was that they had raised the standard of labour and efficiency wherever they had been. There was no question in South Africa of ousting white men from the occupations in which they were now engaged. The proposals under consideration only affected unskilled labour in mines, which could not and, he said boldly, ought not to be done by white men. When he visited Johannesburg the first thing he learned was that there was an enormous amount of gold to be dug out of the earth. It was no exaggeration to say that there were

  65
  hundreds of millions waiting to be dug out. When a friend gave him this information and showed him figures, he asked "Well, what is England to get out of this?" His friend asked what part of England he was interested in. He suggested the case of his constituents in South Staffordshire. He was then shown mines where excellent machinery made by Messrs. Tangye in his own constituency was working successfully. He was told that the demand for machinery of that description was capable of enormous expansion, and that in the case of a great development of mining in South Africa millions of money would be spent on other Staffordshire productions, such as iron and brass work, saddlery, silver and electro-plate, jewellery, etc. But this development depended almost entirely on the supply of labour. He had asked his friend why there was a difficulty about labour, and he was informed that mines producing a small proportion of gold to the quantity of material treated could not pay a very large amount in wages, and it was absolutely necessary that those white men who were employed should be paid good wages. To live in comfort a white man ought to earn at least £20 a month. To do away with the prosperity of the gold mines was to injure the employment of white men in other industries, such as coal-mining and agriculture. They were told that there was a considerable output from the mines at the present time. He admitted that; but they were working the rich surface reefs, which were not expensive to develop, and not difficult to work. It would not be long before these surface reefs would be worked out; and if unskilled labour was not to be employed, who was to develop the deep-level mines? It cos £500,000 sterling to bring a deep level mine to the producing stage, and if capital was discouraged from investing in these deep-level mines, the whole prosperity of South Africa would come to an end. From the common-sense and economic point of view, the employment of Chinese labour was the best thing that could happen. It should be remembered that the Chinaman, if not treated fairly, would not work, because there was no mule in the world more obstinate than the Chinaman when he thought he was not
  66
  getting his rights. The regulations provided that the Chinese labourers were not to be treated harshly. The experiment was to be carried out, not in a remote portion of the world, but by our own compatriots in the full light of day, with a vigilant Press looking on.
  Now what reason was there to think that the responsible managers of the mines were not going to treat the Chinese labourers fairly? He knew that there were some people like hon. Gentlemen opposite, who thought that when a man went to the Colonies he became a combination of knave and fool. His experience in the Colonies was that a colonial, or an Englishman who had gone there, was just as capable of managing his own business as anyone in this country. The managers were most anxious to make the experiment a success, and to do this they must treat the Chinamen well. There were collected at Johannesburg perhaps the most capable mining engineers and mining managers in the whole world. Some of them were Americans, some French and German, and a great many English. Between them they knew all about the working of all the gold mines in the world, and even before the war their attention was turned very closely to the question of supply of labour. If in all those years they had been unable to find any other solution of the problem than the employment of Chinese labour, the extreme probability was that no better solution was to be found. We had spent enormous sums of money in South Africa; we had now the opportunity to get some of it back, and that could be done by securing well-paid employment for our young men; the more coloured labour there was employed the more openings there would be for these young men, and South Africa was capable of providing a magnificent market for articles manufactured in this country. These were legitimate ways of getting back some of the money expended in the war. He believed that the employment of Chinese labour would be good for this country, for the Transvaal, and for the Chinaman, and therefore he would have no hesitation in voting against the Amendment.
  MR. FENWIOKsaid he had no doubt that the

  67
  hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was persuaded that the introduction of Chinese labour in the Transvaal would be advantageous to that part of our possessions. The hon. Member who commenced the debate that afternoon complained that the mover and the seconder of the Amendment had not given due consideration to the views held by the majority of the Legislative Council. He had listened very carefully to the able and interesting speeches of the mover and seconder, and it had struck him that they had paid all the respect that was due to the majority of the Legislative Council, having regard to the way in which the Council had been constituted. It was not a representative authority in any way, as the hon. Gentleman well knew, and the verdict of the majority of that Council on this question could not be taken as representing the views of the white population of the Transvaal. Until the Government took some steps to ascertain clearly and indisputably the views of the white population of the Transvaal on this question, he and his friends, at all events, could not be satisfied with the conclusion at which they had arrived. The hon. Gentleman went on to say that he intended to speak and to vote for what he considered the best interests of the colony, the responsibility of the Government of which we had taken upon ourselves. He had listened very carefully to the hon. Member's speech, and it struck him that the hon. Gentleman regarded the best interests of the colony as based upon the introduction of slavery, or what he would prefer to call a low standard of civilisation. He was aware that the noble Lord the Member for Bedfordshire took exception to the use of the term "slavery," as applied to the introduction of Chinese into South Africa, and he asked the question, "What is slavery?" The noble Lord went on to define slavery as "the condition of a man who is bound to another man for life." Well, he should like to put forward a better definition of slavery than that of the noble Lord. He defined it as "the suppression of individual liberty and freedom of action," and it mattered nothing to him whether the suppression of individual freedom and liberty of action was merely for a limited period
  68
  or for the whole course of the man's natural existence, it was still slavery.
  There could be no doubt that the Amendment brought them face to face with what was, after all, a very serious problem. The Government undoubtedly had made up their minds, so far as they were concerned, to sanction this Ordinance, and practically to give to the authorities in the Transvaal the power to introduce Chinese labour into that colony. Now, they had been told, again and again during the war in South Africa that the Government were powerless, however much they might desire it, to offer terms of surrender to the Boers without the consent of our colonial fellow-subjects, who had made such sacrifices with us in the interests of the Empire. They were told also, again and again, that the Government could not disclose the terms of settlement after the war without having regard to colonial opinion. Now, if the opinion of out-colonial fellow subjects was of such weighty importance as the Government held it to be at that time, why did they now ignore colonial sentiment and feeling in a matter of this kind, which vitally affected the interests of the whole Empire. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight, emphasised the fact that the opinions of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Cape Colony were dead against the action which the Government were likely to take in reference in the Ordinance. With the permission of the House he should like to read the terms of a cablegram sent in December last by the Prime Minister of the Australian Commonwealth, Mr. Deakin, to the Secretary of the Anti-Asiatic League in Cape Town. Mr. Deakin cabled—
  "Unofficially replying your cable am now able to assure you that the Australian policy of exclusion of coloured aliens re-endorsed yesterday by great majority at the general election."
  That cable was read to a mass meeting in Cape Town of between 3,000 and 4,000 inhabitants. A cable was also read from the First Commissioner of Customs in the Commonwealth, dated Adelaide, which stated,
  "Red hot sympathy with the movement."
  viz., the movement to prevent the introduction of Asiatic labour into

  69
  the Transvaal. The hon. Gentleman the Member for East Clare referred to the communication from the Prime Minister of New Zealand. Its text had not yet been communicated to the House and he should like to read it. It was as follows—
  "From the right hon. Richard Seddon. I earnestly hope, in the true interests of South Africa, that the movement for the introduction of Asiatic labour will not succeed. If this were to be the result of the great sacrifices made, it would cause heart-burnings and feelings of wide-spread disappointment. No Asiatic can enter this Colony without paying £100. Speaking as one knowing the Chinese on the gold fields of Australia and New Zealand, X assert they are no use in underground work, and prove undesirable colonists in every sense of the word."
  Then there was a telegram from the Trades Council of Johannesburg which stated—
  "Labour union in the Transvaal unanimously oppose introduction of Asiatics."
  An attempt was made on behalf of the Trades Council to hold a meeting at Johannesburg to protest against the introduction of the Chinese, but the capitalists organised a strong band of roughs at 15s. per head to break it up. As a result they appealed to their fellow citizens at the Cape to assist them in their endeavour to prevent the introduction of Asiatic labour. Why was the House of Commons asked to sanction this slavery Ordinance? Having regard to the restrictions which it was proposed to impose on the freedom of action of the Chinese, he thought they were justly entitled to regard the Ordinance a; a slavery Ordinance. They were told by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Plymouth that the reason they were asked to sanction the Ordinance was that the gold mines could not be worked without the introduction of cheap labour. He denied that. But even if it were so, he wished to ask how far the Government intended to carry that principle. There were industries in this country that were suffering seriously, some of them only barely making ends meet, others temporarily working at a loss. If those industries could have the assistance of the Government in obtaining cheap labour they would regard it as a godsend. Were the Government about to extend their policy to this country? They
  70
  would not dare to do it. He denied that there was a shortage of white unskilled labour in the Transvaal. If the mine-owners were prepared to pay fair wages that labour would be forthcoming at once.
  The war in South Africa was a miners' war in some respects, but he was in a position to say that the miners in the Transvaal were not opposing the employment of white unskilled labour. Their opposition was devoted entirely to the introduction of unskilled Chinese labour. He could assure the Colonial Secretary that letters had been regularly received at the offices of the Miners' Union In Newcastle, from friends who went to South Africa, and on whose words they could rely just as implicitly as the right hon. Gentleman relied on the word of his advisers in the Transvaal. Those letters stated that the hostility of the miners was not to the employment of unskilled white labour, but to the employment of Asiatic labour.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GOREasked what about the hostility to white labour in the Ferreira Mine.
  MR. FENWICKsaid that the hon. Gentleman might possess some special information about that particular mine, but his information from the miners who went to South Africa and on whose word he could rely was as he had stated. At a mass meeting at Cape Town a distinguished citizen who had been in South Africa for twenty years gave same examples to show that there was a good supply of white unskilled labour in South Africa. He said that the De Beers mine wanted over 15,000 extra natives and they had not the slightest difficulty in getting them. The reason being that the conditions of employment were favourable. Only the other day he himself was told that there was one mine in Matabeleland which was never short of labour, because the manager dealt fairly and honestly with the natives and discharged any of his white employees who illtreated them. Again, at Cape Town there was no difficulty in getting native labour for the Docks, but in East London there was the greatest difficulty, the reason being that the wages offered in East London was only 2s. 6d. per day, whereas in Cape Town

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  it was 4s. That clearly showed that where reasonable remuneration was given there was very little difficulty indeed in getting this native labour. Towards the close of the late unhappy war supporters of the Government pointed out to the working classes in this country what a happy hunting ground South Africa would be r the British labourer, and what a splendid outlet it would be for the surplus population of this country. Now it turned out that this country had shed the blood of tens of thousands of its subjects not in the interests of British labour but in the interests of Chinese labour. [An HON. MEMBER: And the Millionaires.] Yes, both of those classes. Ships were chartered to send troops to South Africe and it- seemed to him they would have to charter more ships to bring back the British unemployed from South Africa. The views of those who might be taken to represent the minds of the millionaires of Park Lane indicated that this was really a question of wages and fair conditions of employment. Mr. Lionel Phillips, in a letter to The Times about twelve months ago, said—
  "The refuse and wastrels of this country we will not have at any price, because at sixpence a day they would be dear. Your good honest workmen we cannot afford."
  What an idea ! He would have thought that if anybody could afford to pay fair wages for good honest British labour it was the millionaires who were interested in the mines of South Africa. But underlying this agitation there was also the fear that. if white labour were employed to any considerable extent. trades unions or organisations would be formed to the annoyance of the mine-owners. The "trail of the serpent" referred to in the memorandum presented by the mining industry to the ex-Colonial Secretary in January of last year at Johannesburg was the formation of labour unions. The mine-owners were afraid their profits would be interfered with; hence this agitation. It was for this that we had spent millions of treasure and sacrificed thousands of lives, that wives had been made widows, and children left fatherless—that we might further increase the huge dividends of the men of Park Lane who held this Government in the hollow of their hand. Throughout this agitation the Government had been in the hands of the financiers of London and the Transvaal,
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  and they appeared to be utterly incapable of extricating themselves from the mercenary spell which these men had woven around them. From his knowledge of the working classes of the country he was convinced that if this issue alone was placed before them there would be a speedy clearing out of the Party opposite. He heartily supported the Amendment, believing the Government were about to take a step which would introduce a moral cancer into the social life of the Transvaal, a step fraught with grave danger to the best interests of the Colony, and a step which Members would probably live to regret.
  MR. SEELYsaid he did not wish to make any appeal to sentiment or to opposition to Chinese labour in itself. He appreciated the gravity of the situation in South Africa, and the fact that we had evidence tending to show there was a shortage of labour, and that Lord Milner and others believed it was necessary for the country that fresh sources of supply should be found. One of the gravest elements in the question was the objection to the introduction of Chinese which undoubtedly existed in our Colonies, and the fact that in taking the action proposed we should be acting contrary to the sentiments of all the Colonies which had had any experience of Chinese labour. His principal reason for rising was to ask the Government to delay taking action and to give the country time to consider the question from the point of view, not particularly of the labour being Asiatic, but mainly of the actual regulations to be imposed. Everybody who read those regulations would agree that, although the Colonial Secretary was doubtless perfectly satisfied that anything in the nature of slavery would be prevented, it did not quite appear on the face of the Ordinance that that end would be secured. On the contrary there were grave reasons for fearing that something of the kind would result. There had been an unfortunate incident in the debate. Would anybody have expected that in the twentieth century an hon Member would have stood up to defend and praise the old slave trade in the Southern States of America? Yet that had happened in the debate, for the hon. Member for Leicester had stated that the slave trade in the Southern States of America had been a

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  great economical advantage to that country and to the world.
  SIR JOHN ROLLESTONexplained that what he said was that the old and earlier methods were much to be deplored. He did not in any way praise them, although the economical results were advantageous.
  MR. SEELYsaid he was in the recollection of the House. No doubt the hon. Member did not intend to praise or defend the slave trade, but that only showed what happened when Members got talking on the subject. What the hon. Member said was that the slave trade had been an advantage to those countries, and that the Southern States of America and the cotton trade could not have been properly developed had it not been for the slave trade. That a Member of the House should have made such a statement was an incident which could not have given much pleasure to the Colonial Secretary in whose defence the speech was made.
  SIR JOHN ROLLESTON: May I say that I am not afraid even in this House to state a fact which is historically true?
  MR. SEELYsaid they might differ as to the statement and still more as to its historical truth. According to the proposed regulations, if one of these men thought he would like to live outside the "Chinese village" and bought a house for his wife and family to live in, he would be liable to heavy punishment, and the person selling the house would be fined £500 or imprisoned for two years. Then there was the following clause—
  "Any person who shall harbour or conceal any labourer who has deserted from the service of his importer, or who has committed any breach of this Ordinance, or who should aid and abet any labourer to desert as aforesaid, will be liable to a line not exceeding £50, and, in default of payment, to imprisonment not ex-eeeding three months."
  The old theory for which we had fought in the past, had been that British soil was free, and that every Englishman was free to protect any slave who ran to him. He asked whether it would not be well to give the House a little more time to consider how this evil might be avoided. Only yesterday had there been published the correspondence of the Chinese Minister with regard to
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  these regulations. The Chinese Minister had made certain suggestions or alterations, one of which was—
  "That the person styled 'the importer' shall be a bonâ fide employer of labour, and not a mere dealer or speculator in labour; and that the transfer or assignment of the labourer to another employer shall only be made with the consent of the immigrant and the approval of the Consul or Consular Agent of his country."
  The Chinese Minister was a heathen and they were Christians and this was a Christian country, and yet he went on to say—
  "This is necessary in order to prevent the immigrant from being made a mere chattel or article of commerce."
  He was aware that the right hon Gentleman the Colonial Secretary was prepared to put something of that kind into this regulation, but at any rate there was this justification for the Chinese Minister's suggestion, that in the first Ordinance the consent of the Chinese labourer was struck out. Did not the right hon. Gentleman think that, under the circumstances, it would be far wiser for him to allow the House to see the whole of these regulations and the correspondence before he asked it to pledge itself in any way to this Ordinance. As it stood without the regulations the Ordinance was slavery, and nothing more nor less. [Mr. LYTTRLTON dissented.] The right hon. Gentleman did not acknowledge that; all he could say was the Chinese Minister thought it so, and we certainly ought to go one better than the Chinese Minister; he therefore begged the Colonial Secretary and the Government to give an assurance to the House that this matter should not be considered finally at an end when the vote was given that evening, but would say that the Chinese should not be brought into the Transvaal until sufficient time had been given to enable the people to thoroughly understand the conditions under which they were to be employed. The correspondence with the Chinese Ministers was a very important element in this matter. It was a very serious thing for a Minister to write about making his people "chattels and articles of commerce," he therefore hoped sufficient time would be allowed to consider all the aspects of the case.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND,as a matter of personal explanation and in

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  justification of the statement which he made in the course of his speech, said: In the library I find in the share register of the British South Africa Company of 6th July, 1895, under the number on the register 10,056, the following statement—
  "5,000 shares—Lord A. F. Compton and Edmund Venables."
  I think, in view of that, the noble Lord has placed me in a wrong light in saying he did not possess any shares.
  LORD ALWYNE COMPTON: I apologise for trespassing on the House, but as the hon. Member for Clare has challenged me, I think I have a right of reply. It now appears that the hon. Member has referred to shares which he says were held in my name nine years ago. The hon. Member really should investigate these things before he makes statements of this kind. Nine years ago I was a member of a firm which I do not belong to now, and I believe it is quite possible that 5,000 or 10,000 Chartered shares may have stood at that time in the name of my partner and myself. They wore not my shares, I did not possess them, and neither I nor my partner had any power over them.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: With great respect I submit that the noble Lord does not accurately describe the situation. I made the statement that he possessed shares, and his name for a number of shares is now on the register of the Chartered Company. I think, in the mind of every fair-minded man in the House, that would justify me in making the statement.
  MR. ATHERLEY-JONESsaid that it was not the duty of the Government to consider the interests of the mine-owners or the immediate economic problem, but the interests of what it was hoped would be a great English Colony. All the greatest authorities who had written on South Africa had agreed that it was to the mineral wealth of South Africa that they must look for the development of a colonial free-governed State, and that agriculture, despite the richness and fertility of the soil, could not operate as a magnetic influence in drawing an English population to that point of the world. In establishing Chinese labour, therefore, they would be striking a blow at colonial development by British people. Was it not possible
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  to work these mines with British labour? If there were no Chinese and no blacks would there not be reef prospecting with as much energy as that which characterised Australian mining? If that were so, the Colonial Secretary would be abrogating his responsibility as a Colonial Minister if he allowed Chinese labour to intercept the natural flow of British labour, merely for the purpose of precipitating the development of the mines. Why not employ Indian labour? No doubt the real reason was to be found in the fact that the Indian Legislative Council would not for a moment tolerate further development of the coolie legislation which was enacted with great reluctance some years ago. Another reason, no doubt, was the objection of the Indian people to an Ordinance framed under such conditions. Looking at the nature of the contract the Chinese would have to sign, there was no doubt it amounted to a reinstitution of the system of slavery. He knew of no parallel to this Ordinance in any legislation. It was a singular fact that under the Ordinance it was competent for the mine-owner to inflict corporal punishment upon these unhappy Chinese. That was the opinion of the Chinese Minister. He himself did not wish to take up an attitude of bigoted hostility to the mine-owners of South Africa. Many of them were liberal minded men, but he recollected that before the war broke out, and while it was being waged, this country was told that the colony would be a magnificent field for Britsh labour. There was a large number of unemployed in this country, but this Ordinance would shut the door against them, and put in their place the most debased form of labour which could possibly be instituted in any country under the sun. He hoped, therefore, the Government would reconsider their position, and see whether they could not solve the problem with not so much regard for the immediate interests of the mine owners but in the permanent and lasting interests of both this country and South Africa.
  MR. WILLIAM WATSON RUTHERFORDsaid he wished to say a few words on this subject from an entirely English point of view. At Liverpool they had 25,000 casual labourers, and there was only work for

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  13,000. The result was that each casual labourer got on the average two and a half to three days work every week. This was a cause of very great demoralisation. When a man left his house in the morning to seek work his wife and children did not know whether there would be a crust of bread to eat during the day. This caused such evils as overcrowding, intemperance, disease, and vice of all kinds. At least 2,500 of these casual labourers could be easily spared from Liverpool, and he believed they would go to South Africa if they had terms such as 4s. per day and regular work. He did not believe the work in the mines was any more difficult or objectionable than the work these men had to do in Liverpool. If they had facilities for getting] to South Africa they would, he thought, be willing to go there. A scheme of this kind would be of incalculable advantage to every large city and town in this country. It would benefit the men and it would benefit their families, and they could look forward to improvement in years to come. He was very grieved to hear that there were suggestions that any man who went out to this employment would have to abandon any hope of social improvement, and entirely confine himself to work of this particular kind. Workmen going out from this country to take up this work would look forward to improving their social position. He did not think the illustration of the 1,000 navvies sent out from this country was a fair one. They were sent out to emergency work on railways, and they expected emergency terms. He simply wanted to know whether any efforts had been made to recruit labour in this country for that portion of His Majesty's dominions which appeared to be crying out for labour. He would like to know what attempts in that direction had been made, if any; and, if no efforts had been made, why some attempt should not be made before importing Chinese labour. He believed that the great working centres of this country would want to know why something was not being done for them before we imported Chinese labour into the Transvaal, and that the general sense of this country would object to the importation of that labour, and would only assent to it in the last resort when they were sati fied that
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  reasonable and practical solutions had been fairly tried and failed.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had pointed to the weak point in connection with the labour inquiry. The reference to the Commission which inquired into the subject was exceedingly restricted. It restricted the inquiry to the point—of how many blacks could be obtained in a certain region in Africa? But there were three colours that could be employed in the mines—white, black, and yellow. The white and yellow were both excluded from the inquiry, and many hon. Members who sympathised with the difficulties which the Government were confronted with in South Africa at the conclusion of the war, were determined that they would do nothing to hamper, as they believed, the employment of white labour until the question of the employment of that labour had been thoroughly gone into. The right hon. Gentleman made an appeal to some of them on this side of the House in the earlier portion of the debate on the King's Speech to give support to the Government. But the Imperial thinking of the Government led it in very various directions. We had been invited to reverse our fiscal policy in order that certain advantages might be conferred on South Africa and our other Colonies. We were now asked to reverse the labour policy of this country in order to make South Africa properous. What he could not understand was why, at the very time we were asked to exorcise the demon of cheapness in this country, we should be at the same time invited to introduce it into the Transvaal in the shape of Chinese labour.
  The House had heard about the opinion of the Tranvaal, and the right hon. Gentleman in his speech, in which he endeavoured to make a great many obscure parts of the question plain, objected to any doubt being cast upon the independence of the votes of the officials of the Transvaal upon the Legislative Council. If the right hon. Gentleman's contention held good they might as well abolish the House of Commons, because that assumed that a civil servant being placed on a legislative body was able to do the whole work not merely of administration but of legislation.

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  Admirable as might be the character of the great Civil Service in the Transvaal, he would never accept the view that they could give as independent and as free a vote as the representatives of the people. He could not accept the view, thorefore, that there was not great need for the real opinion of the Transvaal being taken upon the question. If they could not get that by representative institutions the only other way of getting it was by a plebiscite. He could not accept the view that there would not have been plenty of time to have taken a plebiscite if it were still impossible to provide representative institutions in South Africa. He believed it was impossible without adequate inquiry—and that they had not yet had—to support any scheme for pouring unlimited Chinese, married or otherwise, into the mines of the Rand. It was urged that Chinese cheap labour was to encourage the growth of the white population in South Africa, but that was not the view of those parts of the Empire which had tried it. The whole Empire had been united against the proposal to employ Chinese labour. As the right hon. Gentleman had appealed to them to vote Imperially, he would appeal to him in turn to think well before he went against the whole sense of the Empire in importing this cheap labour into South Africa. It was said by a distinguished Member of this House who sat on the other side, and who was no longer with them, that the trail of finance was over the Raid. At any rate, let them make sure that the trail of finance was not over the settlement after the war. It was inevitable, if they took no means of satisfying themselves of what the real opinion of the Transvaal was, that, without representative institutions, and without a plebiscite, the opinion of the mine-owners would bear undue weight with the Government of the country. It was inevitable that the mine-owners and their dependents must exercise undue weight and influence in the consideration of Transvaal policy. He, at any rate, had not sought to shirk any responsibility in supporting what he believed to be British rights in South Africa, and he for one deplored this policy, which he did not think could be justified, and which he thought they were asked to approve on very insufficient data.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid he had listened to the debate with very great interest, and the first thing he would remark was that it was sometimes hard to say where private interests ended and the public interest began. He would, to the best of his ability, protest against this Ordinance, because he believed it to be the slave policy of a slavish and mammonised Government. Would the Colonial Secretary state whether he was the official inferior of Lord Milner, or whether Lord Milner was the official inferior of him? Who was the master and who was the man? Was the master away in the Transvaal and was the man here? It was a very curious thing that when the late Colonial Secretary was in office no slave policy was instituted although Lord Milner was as anxious to institute it then as now. The present Colonial Secretary was carrying out Lord Milner's policy.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the Clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  KINGS SPEECH (MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS).
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment [16th February] to Main Question [2nd February],"That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:—
  "Most Gracious Sovereign,—
  "We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—(Mr. Hardy.)
  Which Amendment was—
  "At the end of the Question to add the words, 'And we humbly represent to Your Majesty that it is highly inexpedient that sanction should be given to any Ordinance permitting the introduction of indentured Chinese labourers into the Transvaal Colony until the

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  approval of the colonists has been formally ascertained—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.")
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid this was one of those occasions which only occurred once or twice in a Parliamentary lifetime when a Member considered it one of his greatest privileges to address the House of Commons. He now lifted up his voice to protest against the violation, contained in this Ordinance, of all the Parliamentary traditions which made this country great, and which made it a refuge for the weak and the oppressed. When the House automatically adjourned ho was asking the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary who in this case was the master; he, the right hon. Gentleman, or his official subordinate, Lord Milner. He had come to the conclusion that, with regard to this slave policy, Lord Milner was the prime mover. It was unfortunate that the Colonial Secretary should have leapt at one bound to his present position and more unfortunate still, that he should have as his official subordinate a person of the somewhat unscrupulous character of Lord Milner, who wa3 controlled and dominated in this slave policy by the millionaires of South Africa. The right hon. Gentleman was appointed to the Colonial Office when Lord Milner had declined that position which the Prime Minister had begged him to accept in a manner hardly worthy of himself. Lord Milner then went to South Africa, and a gentleman very well known at the Bar, but not very well known in this House, was set up here as his mouthpiece. He did not wish to say anything unamiable in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman, but if he said that, in this case, he was a creature of Lord Milner's he was not very far wrong; if he said that Lord Milner himself was the creature of the millionaire capitalists of South Africa he was very much in the right. The hon. Member for the Stowmarket Division who spoke first in the debate that afternoon, had made use of an observation which had started him on a train of thought. The hon. Member for Stowmarket drew attention to the fact that when the House assembled, and before public business commenced, and before Mr. Speaker took the chair, we had prayers and thanksgiving to Almighty
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  God, and a prayer that we might arrive at our conclusions without fear, favour, or misgiving. Those words were spoken by a dignitary of the Church, whose voice they loved to hear, and whose grandfather was the great slave emancipator. When William Wilberforce stood up in this House at the time of the Union and demanded the emancipation of the slaves he did not get a voice to support him, but when seven years later, after the Union was effected, he carried the Emancipation Act he carried it with the help of an Irish majority, and he (Mr. MacNeill) was proud to belong to a nation which had always been found ready to fight on the side of freedom and humanity. The Transvaal was a new colony and new colonies he always noticed were given mottoes. In 1858 when our Indian Dependency became a British Dependency they took for their motto "Heaven be our guide" and that motto was fulfilled when the right hon. Gentleman opposite became Secretary of State for India. He now thought of presenting to the Colonial Secretary a motto for the Transvaal. The right hon. Gentleman was a scholar and came from a family of scholars and he would have given him the motto in Latin, but for the benefit of the House he would give it in the vulgar tongue. The motto for this colony, in view of this slave Ordinance, should be "The smell of gain from any source is sweet."
  He had endeavoured, unsuccessfully, no doubt because he was not acute Parliamentarian enough, to get a disorderly Question past the Clerk at the Table, to elucidate this matter for the benefit of the House. He would now say this, that Lord Milner, not personally, but officially, was and must necessarily be, very much influenced in his capacity as administrator of South Africa by capitalist considerations. The late Mr. Rhodes made a will. In this will there was a disposition of £14,000,000, £7,000,000 were invested in Transvaal mines. Lord Milner was one of the executors and trustees under that will. If Lord Milner did not regard the welfare of the mines he would be disregarding the trusts of Mr. Rhodes' will. First of all he was a great administrator in which capacity he had to lower rents and see that there was a living wage for the white man. Then as executor of

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  Mr. Rhodes' will, it was his duty to raise rents, and join hands with the capitalists of South Africa. Lord Milner had every possible defect there could be in a Governor. He was associated by sympathy and by interest as executor of Mr. Rhodes with Transvaal mines. In consequence he was carrying on his Ministry in South Africa not in favour of the poor but of the rich, not in favour of the British working man but of the Park Lane millionaire. He recollected the cheers that greeted the mover of the Amendment, when, in his masterly speech, he pointed out how the effect of the importation of the Chinese labourer would be to keep out of the Transvaal English, Scotch, and Irish working men, and asked, "Is this what we get for the war?" Henry Grattan always said—
  "I never argue with a prophet because I always disbelieve him,"
  He was a poor successor of a great Hebrew prophet, but he remembered four years previously making a prophecy with regard to the South African war and what it meant, and being greatly rejoiced when The Times the next day had a stinging article on "The Calumnies of Mr. Swift MacNeill." Those words of four years ago were fulfilled because, as everybody knew in their hearts, they were true, but he was much rejoiced when he saw the tons of ink expended by the yellow-press scribblers in abuse of him, and when he became the theme of every Jingo drunkard in every Jingo music hall. During the course of the debate it had been clearly seen that the great contest going on between the Members of the Treasury Bench and the opposite side of the House was as to which of two trails should lay over South Africa. The Treasury Bench said the trail of finance should have the advantage, while those upon the Opposition side said that the trail of trades unionism, which gave everybody an equal opportunity of earning a fair wage, should be the dominant factor. The great secret of the immortality of Shakespeare was that he saw that the methods of the base were the same from age to age; that he saw that men were affected by the same passions in all ages, that despite the march of civilisation men were affected by the same aspirations, the same passions, the same vices, as they were in the days of old; and when he saw, in the course of this debate, the motives which guided the
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  actions of men, he was constrained to say that they were the same which led to the Irish Members being brought to this House by the Act of Union. He had stated, so far as he could, in succinct language, the condition of Johannesburg today when Lord Milner was in full power—
  "The one desire of the people of Johannesburg was to maintain their independence and preserve their public liberty without which life was not worth living. The Government denied them this and violated the national sense of Englishmen at every turn."
  Was that true? He thought so, but when those words were written they were regarded as being as false as the Piggott forgeries. He took that extract from "the women and children's letter" at the time of the Jameson Raid. That was the means by which the war was begun and by which they came to the present state of things.
  His hon. friend the Member for the Stowmarket Division had said that, in this matter of Chinese labour, he had the courage of his convictions and was prepared to face his constituents. A more noted person, the hon. Member for Dulwich, although he had said nothing of the kind, had taken an even stronger course, because, in a placard a copy of which was shown in the lobby on the previous day and with which his constituency was placarded, he said—
  "If anybody says that Dr. Rutherfoord Harris will vote for Chinese labour in the Trans vaal it is a lie."
  It was to the highest degree repellent and abhorrent to civilised men that any human being, however debased he might be, should, for the sake of metallic gain to others, be placed in a degraded position. These imported Chinese labourers would be placed in that position. This Ordinance was one of the most shocking documents that had ever emanated from the brain of man, and he had no hesitation in saying that the condition of these Chinese labourers under the British law would be degrees more horrible than the condition of slavery which existed in the old days. Above all, there was one thing in the Ordinance which, in the debate, had not been brought out so clearly as it might have been. These men were to be allowed to acquire no property and to have no power of bettering themselves, they were to be as machines, and

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  what was more, it was supported from that Treasury Bench in this Christian and Bible-loving England where Biblical expressions and quotations rose spontaneously to our lips, in this Christian England which boasted of thirty generations of Christian children they were told by the Treasury Bench that one of the conditions, in the regulations, was to be that these men were to have idols of brass made in Birmingham from whence many a foul fetish had come before for worship. Some of the most devoted of public men that he had ever known had suffered martyrdom in their desire to spread Christianity in China. What would our successors say if we allowed these poor Chinese to have brass idols made in Birmingham, for the purposes of worship, in order to give more money to Messrs. Beit and Eckstein and Swindleheim and Co. The first debate on the Address had been a fiscal debate, the second had been a slavery debate. He had made his protest; he was thankful he had had the privilege to do so. He had been eighteen years in this House and God forbid that if he lived another eighteen years and was here at the time when any such question as this arose again, he should not rise in his place and protest to the uttermost against such a course as was now proposed to be taken.
  MR. MOONsaid it was absolutely superfluous for him to defend Lord Milner, whose great public services were universally recognised, from the attacks of the hon. Member for Donegal. He ventured to think that hon. Gentlemen who had spoken on the other side of the House had ignored, or had taken insufficient account of two important factors in this problem. The first was the resolution of the Bloemfontein Conference in March of last year. Those gentlemen who talked about hurry and hustle on the part of the Government seemed to think that nothing had been done in South Africa before the Ordinance was passed by the Legislative Council. He asked permission to read the resolution on the native question passed by that Conference on 19th March, 1903, which showed how definite the opinion was in South Africa—
  "That this Conference, after considering ail available statistics, and hearing the reports of
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  the highest official authorities of the several States, has come to the conclusion that the native population of Africa south of the Zambesi does not comprise a sufficient number of adult males, capable of work, to satisfy the normal requirements of the several colonies, and at the same time furnish an adequate amount of labour for the large mining centres. Under these circumstances, it is evident to the Conference that the opening up of new sources of labour supply is requisite in the interests of all the South African States."
  Who were the members of that Conference? They consisted of delegates and advisers from all the four colonies in South Africa—self-governing and Crown colonies delegates and advisers from Rhodesia, and one delegate from Portuguese East Africa, Mr. Lencastre. The resolution was passed, as he had said, on 19th March last, and no protest was entered to show that any individual dissented from its conclusions. [An HON. MEMBER: Did they recommend Chinese labour?] They recommended sources of labour other than African. What was the inference from that? He passed from that point to the point raised by the hon. Member for Clare,who said that the labour representatives would soon demonstrate what a cruel, heartbreaking, miserable thing this scheme for introducing Chinese labour into South Africa was. Well, the House had listened with respect and attention to the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Wansbeck Division, who said that he had received information from many persons, who had gone from Northumberland to the Transvaal, stating that they were against Chinese labour. But, at all events, the reports from the Transvaal were not by any means unanimous. He held in his hand a newspaper called the Labour Leader, which, he believed, was the organ of the Labour Representation Committee.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid, as a matter of right, he wished to state that the Labour Leader never was the organ of, and did not represent, the Labour Representation Committee It was his personal property, and under his own charge.
  MR. MOONsaid that the Labour Leader was, as the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil stated, edited by him at all events and he was assisted by two gentlemen, Mr. Philip Snowden and Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, who, he believed, were Labour

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  candidates. That paper, brought out under these auspices, contained the following sentences in an article called—
  "'The Socialist Outlook in the Transvaal,' by 'Our Rand Correspondent':—'A large portion of the Uitlander working class regard the Labour Party's cheap white remedy as far worse than the Chinese disease.'"
  The other sentence he would read was more material and important, and appeared under the sub-title—
  "'Chinese, or low paid whites'. We have what is probably the larger portion of Rand working men in favour of Chinese for unskilled work."
  and further down, the writer continued—
  "The average miner rather prefers to be safe from competition by having Chinese, under legislative enactment, than by having a huge number of unskilled whites, gradually becoming skilled, to step into his shoes."
  He thought he had shown that the Labour Party was not agreed on this question.
  He came now to his second point. He thought that his right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary must have satisfied everyone on that side of the House, except the hon. and gallant Member for Isle of Wight, that South Africa was not a white man's country. [An HON. MEMBER on the MINISTERIAL BENCHES: No.] Well, at all events it was not a white man's country in the same sense that the United States or our own Colonies of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand were white men's countries. If any hon. Member doubted that, he would quote Mr. Moor, Secretary for Native Affairs in Natal, and one of the delegates of Natal to the Conference in Bloemfontein, whose resolution he had recited. That Gentleman stated that in South Africa the coloured population was six to one of white men, in his own colony the proportion was still greater, viz., ten to one. It was true that in South Africa there were one or two dying races, the Hottentots and Bushmen, but the situation in other respects was far different from that in the United States, where the red man was now practically extinct, from Australia where the Aborigines were practically extinct, and from New Zealand where the Maoris were fast going. In South Africa every variety of the Bantu tribes seemed to increase in proximity to the white races at the most astonishing rate. The rate was not less rapid than that of the
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  negroes in the United States. If that were so, they could never expect to have South Africa a white man's country, in the sense that New Zealand and Australia were white men's countries. What of India? India was not a white man's country, although it was the brightest jewel in the crown of England, and many Englishmen went there to work. South Africa was, in regard to black and coloured labour in an intermediate position between India on the one hand and Australia on the other. But it was an essential factor in the problem that the supply of labour was insufficient. Already additional labour had been brought into the country from India. Why draw a distinction between black labour and yellow labour? He believed that there was a suggestion that Indian labour in Natal was regarded by the inhabitants in that colony as unsatisfactory; but if hon. Gentlemen would refer to the report of the Bloemfontein Conference they would see that the Prime Minister of Natal, Sir Albert Hime, moved a Resolution to the following effect—
  "That in the opinion of this Conference the permanent settlement in South Africa of Asiatic races would be injurious, and should not be permitted; but that, if industrial development positively requires it, the introduction of unskilled Asiatic labourers, under a system of Government control providing for the indenturing of such labourers and their repatriation at the termination of their indentures, should be permissible."
  An Amendment was proposed to that resolution which began—
  "That this Conference is of opinion that South Africa is essentially a white man's country,"
  but it was abandoned and merged in the resolution, which he had quoted at the outset, in regard to the introduction of non-African labour. Could anything be clearer than that? Even in South Africa it was fully recognised that it was not a white man's country. [An HON. MEMBER: Is that Lord Milner's view?] He did not know, he was only concerned with the fact that the Bloemfontein Conference, which was presided over by Lord Milner, passed the resolution he had read, and that it was recorded without protest. He now came to the last portion of the second point—"Were the Chinese worse than other people?" Perhaps he had

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  seen as much of the Chinese people as most hon. Members in the House—in their own country, in San Francisco, and elsewhere—and he had seen no evidence to show that the Chinese were worse than any European or Asiatic nation. He would venture to refer to the opinion of a gentleman whom he had met on board a steamer, who for a long time was a member of the Legislative Council and a planter in a West Indian colony. That gentleman told him that in the province of Demerara the Chinese formed an excellent part of the population, that they were superior to other immigrants, that they were orderly and well conducted, and that they equipped and maintained their Christian churches better than the other members of the community. He would quote another great authority, the celebrated American missionary to China, Dr. Wells Williams. That gentleman, who had lived forty-three years in China and wrote the standard book on China, entitled "The Middle Kingdom," said, after referring to the religious characteristics of Chinamen—
  "To these traits of Chinese character may be added the preservative features of their regard for parents and superiors, and their general peaceful industry. If there be any connection between the former of these virtues and the promise attached to the Fifth Commandment, That thy days may be long in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, then the long duration of the Chinese people and the Empire is a stupendous monument of the good effects of a partial obedience to the law of God by those who only, had it inscribed on their hearts, and not written in their hands."
  He would give one other corroboration of the evidence as to the value and merit of the Chinese. Some twenty years ago Mr. Seward, bearing a name honoured among American statesmen, who subsequently became American Minister at Pekin, set himself to write a book on the effects of Chinese immigration into California, and bore testimony to the splendid work which the Chinese did in the mining towns of the Pacific slope. Their labour compared favourably with that of the Cornish minors. His hon. and gallant friend sitting behind him, who was intimately connected with Canada, had told him that many parts of Canada could not have been built up without the assistance of Chinese labour. It had been said that wherever Chinese had been introduced, the step had been followed by
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  deplorable results; but that might be alleged of any place where men were herded together. The Colonial Secretary had told the House that statutory permission would be given for these men to bring their wives with them, and that would prevent any evil results following. Those who knew anything about China were aware that in China a man could only have one legal wife. There was some recognition of regularised concubines, but it was to be inferred that the Colonial Secretary would exclude these from the Transvaal. He ventured to express the belief that the provisions which had been made by way of safeguard would entirely obviate the evils which had been brought to his notice a few days ago, and which made him doubt whether he should vote on this occasion. The letter of the Bishop of Worcester to The Times and the speeches of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Bishop of Rochester had made him regard this as a most serious matter, and he had gone so far as to tell one of the Whips that his vote could not be relied on on this occasion. However, he had gone into the matter very carefully, and he believed that there was no danger at all. He should vote for the Government. A gentleman in the Indian Civil Service told him how recruits were enlisted for the Assam tea gardens. They were led to believe that they would have good wages and an easy time; but when they went to Assam, they found that they had to sign a contract involving onerous conditions of which they had previously no idea. That would not be the case with the Chinese because a certificate would not be granted to the person importing them unless an officer were fully satisfied that they understood the conditions. He would vote for the Government because he believed that this movement need only betemporary, because it was urgently necessary, and because if they hampered or delayed the Government they would be retarding the development of an important part of the British Empire.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: I will, with the permission of the House, state briefly the reasons for my vote, which I am indisposed to give

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  silently. In passing, I should like to notice the peculiar position in which the House finds it-self, this week, as contrasted with that of last week. Last week we were blamed for bringing a question before the House which necessarily involved a vote of want of confidence in the Government; now the same position, which then we were told was wrong, is forced on the House by the action of the Colonial Secretary. It was certainly understood at the commencement of this session that the House was to have what is called an independent opportunity of discussing this question upon its own merits—a question, I venture to say, which is one of the gravest which has been submitted to the House for a long series of years. For some reason or other the Government have come to the conclusion that the Party whip must be applied in this case, and that to this question must be superadded the question which we had to discuss last week, as to the confidence or want of confidence in His Majesty's present advisers. I am not going to argue the question on one side or the other. I admit it is a sub- jet beset with difficulties, I admit that circumstances have arisen over which this House certainly has at present no control, circumstances, to which I will not refer as far as their past history is concerned, which confront us with serious economical difficulty in South Africa. I will not argue whether objections or arguments are well or ill-founded, I care not whether there can or cannot be obtained sufficient labour under existing circumstances, I care not whether the mines can be carried on at a profit or not. I venture to say that in my opinion, (which is not perhaps worth very much), applying myself to the figures and history of the case, I do not believe in the assertion that the mines cannot be carried on at a profit unless recourse is had to the system now proposed. I think the House has to deal with this subject on a higher plane than on the question of what, in the next twelve months, the profits or the losses of the mining industry in South Africa may become, with respect to which one speaker, before the adjournment, told the House that there were hundreds of millions of pounds worth of gold available in this district. But the question on which I am going to ask the House to
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  vote is—Whether they will sanction the introduction into one part of the King's dominions of slavery. We have heard a good deal in the last two or three years of the glories and the successes and the wonders of the nineteenth century, but I venture to think that Englishmen of to-day, and I am quite sure Englishmen of the future, will look back upon one act of the century as that of which English posterity may be for ever proud—the legislation under which this House and this country resolved, at what was then a great pecuniary sacrifice, to wipe out the stain and the blot and the crime of slavery from the whole British Empire. I think this is the first time since the great Act of 1833 was passed that we have been asked in the British House of Commons to sanction a system which is—I will not say the first step, but something beyond the first step—in the direction of the re-introduction of slavery in this Empire. I have heard arguments used to-night some derogatory to the character of the Chinese, and some commendatory of the character of the Chinese, but I put that on one side altogether—whether they are good or bad, whether the introduction of a people with their habits or vices would be a great disadvantage or a great advantage to the labour market in South Africa. But even if the Ordinance be modified by the regulations which the Colonial Secretary is to make, whatever form those regulations may take, these men are bound to be, in the words used, I think, by the Chines, Ambassador, goods and chattels. I care not whether the Chinese possess all the virtues or all the vices; they are men, and when they have gone into South Africa they will be the subjects of the British Crown, and under that rule, at all events until the present period, we have always been taught to believe that no slavery could exist, and that, as Lord Mansfield said, the very breath of air on British soil meant perfect freedom to all men.
  We have heard a great deal as to what would be done if this were a self-governing colony. I submit that that is perfectly irrelevant. I think the British Parliament is not entitled to allow, and would have no moral justification for allowing, any colony which called itself a British colony to introduce slavery into

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  its midst. The great Ameri an Republic was broken up on that ground. There you had independent States claiming their right to allow slavery, and certainly a good deal was to be said in favour of their claim from the constitutional standpoint. But, although these States were in a totally different position from any self-governing colony of ours, the great American people would not allow their independence to protect the institution o slavery; and the ultimate issue of the great war which took place in consequence, was the question of the existence or non-existence of slavery. We have this corresponding duty to all parts of our Empire. That is the ground on which I shall give my vote. I believe that among the very wise sayings of that wisest of statesmen and writers, Mr. Burke, one of the most pregnant and one which ought to be held supreme in this House and in the councils of those who guide it was his declaration that—
  "Whatever is morally wrong can never be politically right."
  I would put another point before I sit down. An hon. Member this evening encouraged us not to be afraid of what he called the terrors of the Episcopal or the Nonconformist conscience. Well, that hon. Member will find, and the Government-and the House will find, that the Episcopal and the Nonconformist conscience constitute together a power in this country that cannot be ignored. We may depend upon it that, if this ill-timed and ill-advised measure is allowed to proceed with the sanction of the House of Commons, you will have turned over a new page in the history of this country and you will see the beginning of an agitation which will last for years, until this stain is wiped off our Statute-book. Looking forward to the future, as well as remembering the past, I would urge the House to put aside all this question of confidence or no confidence in the illustrious body of men who at present preside over the destinies of this country. Never mind whether they are the greatest or the wisest statesmen who ever lived; never mind matters which are mere trifles in comparison with what would be a lasting disgrace to the House of Commons and the country.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid that whether the House realised it or not,
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  he believed, after thirteen years of Parliamentary experience, that this was the most momentous debate he had ever heard, and one which would probably mark an epoch in the relations between the Colonies and this country unless the Ordinance was revoked. In his judgment the debate raised a question of even greater importance than the question of the Jameson Raid or even the costly war which was created by the raid. Both the raid and the war were the result of wealth, and were the consequence of money taking the place of government, and commercial pro-consuls with German names governing Africa in the interest of the Jews. The question was whether or not they should again, in the history of the world, have human subjectiveness to money and human degradation in the interests of wealth, and whether this old country, which had its face towards the light more than any other country on God's earth, should tear up the charter of Wilberforce, and should, in the interests of the most profitable and most unscrupulously managed of any industry, revive slavery in some of its worst forms. When that issue was submitted to the British working man he promised that the Conservative workman in Liverpool, the Orange workman in Belfast, the Nationalist workman in Dublin, and the Tory workman in London would vote on this question without either politics or religion influencing their decision, and that they would sweep away every man on the Benches opposite who, at the instance of an unscrupulous gang of foreign capitalists, had made Lord Milner their tool and the Government their medium. The Ordinance connoted the corrupt influence of those capitalists whom Dr. Johnson must have had in his mind when he said that "patriotism was the last refuge of a scoundrel." It also denoted another milestone on the Jingo rake's progress. First it was protection, then it was prescription, and now it was slavery. He had spent his life in helping the poor, the unskilled and the unorganised in his own country, and, at the request of the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary would give his views on the Ordinance. They had no right whatever, on a subject of such moment, to the race, the Empire, and the country, to speak from the narrow view of labour or the sectional view of trades unionism. They should not forget their duties as Members of Parliament, who had a right

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  to protest against indentured labour and against the Chinese slavery which the Ordinance safe-guarded. He had no prejudice against the Chinaman. His virtues, not his vices, were to be exploited to his own detriment and to the white man's undoing, by men who were not as virtuous as the Chinaman they sought to use. As to the Chinaman's morality, it was comparable to the morality of drunkard Rhodesians from Throgmorton Street, who, on Friday night at the Covent Garden ball, in the presence of Inspector French, displayed more disgusting immorality than he himself had ever seen in Chinatown, San Francisco. He did not protest against the Chinaman as a Chinaman, but he protested against 10,000 men of any nationality being violently dumped down in the heart of any community at the instance of Sir George Farrar. Mr. Phillips, Mr. Beit, and other patriots who sung "God save the King" in broken English, and wanted an interpreter for the top notes. Those men were to be dumped down in South Africa because their character and susceptibilities were such that, collectively, they could be used to violently drag down the standard of life and comfort, and incidentally the standard of the morality of the community, into which they had been projected.
  The Colonies were against this Ordinance. Mr. Deakin, Mr. Seddon, and all white Australia were opposed to it. In March, 1903, Sir George Farrar's own miners passed a resolution dead against it. Mr. Mather, to whom the Colonial Secretary had referred as being in favour of the I importation of Chinese labour, was present at that meeting and appealed for fairness for Sir George Farrar, who made a strong and vigorous speech against the importation. If he had changed his views he was not the only one who had done so. Lord Milner, up to 1903, was against it, and he did not believe that the late Colonial Secretary could be quoted in favour of it. White labour in South Africa was also against it. Meetings had been held and petitions adopted against it, and there was a celebrated meeting to which 500 miners were sent at 15s. a head to howl down speakers who denounced Chinese labour; but these men in their hearts did not want
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  it. Both organised and unorganised labour was opposed to it. Who were for it? Ex-Jameson raiders, mine-owners, and official members of the Legislative Council. What did the Colonial Secretary say about it himself? He had only one plea, and that was necessity which knows no law. He gave them a long, ingenious, subtle legal argument, but that was the only plea it contained, and that was the plea with which the thief was confronted every day of his life. Necessity was that which stood between all of us, and that declension which marked us off from being honest men. But our forebears did not allow necessity to weigh with them when they gave £20,000,000 for emancipation. If only hon. Members could see, as he had seen on both the East and West Coasts of Africa, our gunboats chasing Arab dhows and our sailors working their very hearts out in pursuit of slave raiders, and with the object of saving human souls, they would hesitate to accept the plea of necessity. Where was the necessity? There were 120 gold mining companies, with £57,000,000 of capital, and a value of £174,000,000, and in the last few years they had payed £20,000,000 in dividends, ranging from 5 to 187 per cent. Necessity knew no law. Greed knew no limitation. The Colonial Secretary had told them there were 30,000 natives short, and he had insisted, on that ground, that the opposition to the proposal should drop. The question of submitting the point to a referendum had been raised. Well as to a referendum, on the question of slavery he would not have dictation from any colony. He did not care whether there was a referendum or not. If there were one the mine-owners would manipulate it and it would be corrupt. It would be one appealing to greed and to the lowest feelings, and the men would be told to vote for it because it would be the salvation of Africa. If they were to have Chinese labour in South Africa let them have it direct from the Colonial Secretary and after a long discussion in Parliament. Who were the Commissioners they were supposed to respect? Four out of the seven of the majority on the Commission were ex-Jameson raiders—men who confessed to being either liars, forgers, or conspirators, and he refused to accept

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  their dictum. Others were officials of the big companies—men who in the pursuit of wealth had resorted to raids, rebellion, bribery, and even war in the interests of protection and slavery. He refused to accept them on any ground.
  But was there any necessity for this? Mr. Birchenough a gentleman, who stood well in the councils of the Colonial Office, in his report said that during the last few years the native recruiting returns had been decidedly satisfactory, and January and February of this year had been equal in production to the best months of 1898. There was reason to believe that, before another twelve months had passed, things would be restored to the high level which obtained before the war. Then there was Mr. Grant, than whom nobody knew more about South Africa. He declared before the Commission that the effect of the ill-judged reduction of wages had been to stop the return of the natives to the mines and the difficulty had been accentuated by the war, the natives not having spent their earnings during the war and there being plenty of work in the re-erection of farm buildings. Sir Godfrey Lagden and other gentlemen of experience testified to the same effect, and declared that when the native?—many of whom earned per day during the war as much as six times what our soldiers who were fighting our battle?, earned—had spent their savings they would go back to the mines, and matters would readjust themselves. Mr. Grant went further and declared that some of the shortage of labour had been deliberately arranged by the mine-ownera themselves in order to support their claim for the importation of Chinese labour. Then a question had arisen as to the treatment of the Chinese on their passage to South Africa. Evidently there was feared a repetition of the horrors of the Middle Passage, and he was anxiously awaiting the letter from the Chinese Minister. What did the Ordinance seek to do? It proposed to do that which was never done in the history of slavery in the West Indies. This Ordinance was like a bill of lading for billets or railway sleepers. The negro slave in America was never treated as these Chinese were to be treated. He was not made to live in a compound, Part prison and part hospital, while a company
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  made huge profits out of him by selling him rotten meal and deceased mealies, and by subjecting him to loathsome conditions. When the American negro had completed his day's task he was free to do as he liked, to go to his chapel or to his market and to indulge in games. When he was on the West Coast of Africa he had some experience of Kroomen and Kaffirs and he found them honest, loyal, clean, and industrious. If they occasionally indulged in more wives than one, well they only followed the example of our impecunious peers who married American heiresses in order that they might keep them. These poor fellows were treated like human beings. But the Chinese who were to be imported into South Africa would not be so treated. These were to be bound over for three years instead of for six months only, they would be kept in a compound and would receive probably 8d. or 9d. a day and their rations.
  He ventured to assert that if the African natives had been treated properly there would have been no shortage of labour. The Colonial Secretary had quoted Canon Scott Holland's description of labour in South Africa, but let them read his articles in the Christian Commonwealth and he did not think they would find the Canon was in favour of compound labour. Of course when a Member of the House went to Kimberley he was invited to visit the De Beer's compounds. A carriage met him at the station, a nice luncheon awaited him at the other end. The compound had been smartened up, boys came out in their festive garb, but let them only go behind the scenes. Everyone knew what these De Beers compounds really were; in spite of what credulous high Church parsons and more credulous low-grade politicians might say, they would find both illness and brutality. Look at the alarming death rate. They had a series of companies making profits varying from 5 to 187 per cent., in addition to a profit of from 20 to 40 per cent. by the truck system, and by supplying rotten meal and diseased mealies. Last year in Great Britain one miner per 1,000 was killed; and in Kimberley 12 per 1,000. In the Rand compounds the death-rate was 70 per 1,000 and in some cases 106 Why we had nearly half a million of British soldiers engaged in the war for

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  3½ years, and the death-rate so long as the war lasted was only 38 per 1,000. Out of 58,250 natives employed there were 3,085 deaths in nine months. This was the reason natives, Kaffirs, Zulus, and Lobengula boys would not accept the work, and chief after chief had declared their boys should not go to the mines to be killed or brutalised as they had been. In one ease which had been quoted there had been 24 deaths among only 1,600 boys in 9 months. Remove the causes of excessive mortality, treat the natives fairly, and their labour would return. Of the deaths 48 per cent. were caused by bad food, largely consisting of condemned Government stores. Look at the death rate and the causes of the deaths, 12 per cent. were described as from scurvy; why, among the 800,000 British miners he had failed to discover that one death had arisen from scurvy. Many deaths were due to diarrhoea and similar diseases, indeed 48 per cent. might be attributed to stinking meat, rotten mealies, bad cooking, bad attendance in hospital, and the filthy disgusting purgatives administered to the poor creatures continuously one week before they left the compounds to return to their native land.
  If the Colonial Secretary wanted to stop the shortage of native labour he would tell him how to do it. The labourers should be given better house accommodation, better food, fires in their compounds, better ventilated quarters, more air space, clean drinking water in the mines, and proper sanitation, and the sale to them of mealies from condemned Government stores should be stopped. The statement of the Colonial Secretary with regard to the whites refusing to work with blacks was exaggerated. Whites could and ought to be increasingly used in South Africa on the railways, municipalities, handy work, and many other branches of labour now performed by natives. Black and white men worked together in America; they did not work in the same companies, but they worked in different regiments; they worked together on hundreds of ships, and they could be induced to work together more in South Africa if wages were raised. He had himself worked with black men, and the more he had had to do with them the more he had
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  respected them. The reason of the difficulty about their working together was that one section was played off against the other to the common discomfiture and detriment. If white labour was introduced to a greater extent into the mines this objection would gradually disappear. That it was disappearing was shown by the fact that whereas before the war there were 100,000 natives and 10,000 white men in the mines, there were now 68,000 blacks and 13,000 whites, a proof that when necessity compelled the thing could be done. It wag true that white men who went to South Africa were showing an indifference to honest labour. He deprecated the fact, but whose fault was it? Modern Imperialism appeared to have only two results—to make chronic loafers abroad and "little loafers" at home. For political purposes it had been dinned into the ears of these men that they were boys of the bull-dog breed, that one Briton was worth three Frenchmen, nine Kaffirs, and fifteen Chinamen, and men who at home were content with honest labour at reasonable remuneration, were taught immediately they went to Imperial South Africa to buffet the negro, to hustle him off the path into the road, and to look upon honest labour as not being the work or duty of white men. An Empire founded on such conditions could not last. An Empire that wished to evade labour instead of recognising its dignity, and to secure gold by compound slavery, by the subjection of Kaffirs and Chinamen, would be incapable of producing that physique and moral strength by which Empires alone could be maintained.
  He might be asked what was his alternative. Roughly, it was better treatment, higher wages, better food, better housing, a greater regard for tribal customs, and a greater respect for inter-tribal habits. It was not right to jumble together men from the East Coast and men from Central Africa, or to take away their chiefs and deprive them of the only comfort they had in life. If it was a question between this slavery and the extinguishing of the diamond industry his choice was made. His life had been based on the model of the Vicar of Wakefield; his tastes were simple because his wants were few, and they did not run

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  to diamonds. Why should they not apply to these companies the same restrictions as to water and gas companies, by which a dividend of more than 10 per cent. was not permitted without the commodity being proportionately reduced in price? If, in the interests of peace in South Africa, the owners agreed to amalgamate the mines, they would still be able to pay a dividend of from 20 to 30 per cent. lt was no idle threat to say that if this scheme were carried out it might mean the loss of South Africa. He had a letter from a political opponent in his own constituency, a Tory, a protectionist, and an ex-Yeoman, in which this passage occurred—
  "I can assure you that the introduction of Chinese labour will be the first spark to the revolutionary powder in Africa. This time, instead of all men taking up arms for Britain it will be the other way about. One thing is certain, viz., that if the Chinese are landed here there is going to be civil war."
  That was from a man who went out to fight for the franchise, for equal rights for all white men, for justice to the native races. It was a serious warning of what might occur. The people were tiring of South Africa. The Jameson Raid sickened them of Imperial finance and financial imperialism, and they had been disillusioned by the war. If Lord Milner, whose bad temper, lack of humour, and lack of sense of proportion made him not an ideal tree Governor, whose traditions were bad, who had packed his office with untrained and inexperienced youngsters, had, in a tit of bad temper, confirmed this Ordinance, it was done under circumstances which justified the Colonial Secretary in reversing his decision. As a politician he welcomed this issue of slavery or free labour in South Africa, but as a Briton, as one who had been in a small way a steward of the British race amongst the negroes of West Africa, and had tried to teach them that to have a white face was to have a kindly heart, and to be a Briton was to be a fair, just, and kindly man, he declared that if the Government. at the instance of men who would profit by it, were to brutalise the natives, to send them to premature death, to subject them to the horrors of the compound equalling the sufferings of the Middle Passage, to involve South Africa in turmoil and dissatisfaction and this country in an electoral fight, there would be but one ending to it, viz., the
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  re-assertion of liberty, freedom, and independence, and the revival of the anti-slavery enthusiasm which had been one of the greatest glories of this House. ["Oh."] If hon. Members doubted it let Parliament be dissolved and the test put to the people. The country would then declare that they did not elect the Government on a war issue, to become the instruments of German Jews, or to make Chinamen or negroes slaves.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I so completely associate myself with what has been said more than once as to the tendency of speeches to become longer and longer, that I can promise the House that I will not stand long in the way of the right hon. Gentleman opposite who is to reply for the Government. I am a time-worn advocate of short and strictly-limited speeches; and I hope that, except on occasions when I could not avoid it, I have not usually offended in the other direction. There are several separate and distinct points of view on this subject of Chinese labour; and I will at once make a confession for what it is worth, as to the effect of some of these points of view. There is the point of view of the mine-owner, who desires to increase his profit; the point of view of the shareholder, who wishes for larger dividends; the point of view of the Pretoria oligarchy or hierarchy, who, having set up in a country desolated by war a costly and elaborate form of Government, find that they cannot get a revenue to support it except on certain terms. From those points of view, I can well understand that there should be a desire for cheap labour in the Transvaal, and the conviction that by the importation of Chinese that advantage will be obtained. But we are here not in the interest of the mine-owners, nor of the speculators, nor of the present Government of the Transvaal. We are here in the interest of this country, and in the interest of the community of the Transvaal, our new fellow-subjects, to whom we stand in the relation of trustees. I have looked carefully through the documents presented by the Government, and, whilst wishing they had been more complete, they satisfy me that the allegation of the scarcity of native labour is not made out. I will not repeat the

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  arguments so well put forward by the hon. Member for Battersea, but I would like to quote from a Minute of the Cape Ministry of August last. They say—
  "To effect a satisfactory solution of the labour question in South Africa what is required above all is the exercise of patience, for Ministers are firmly convinced that, if the continent south of the Equator be explored, sufficient labour is available and can be secured, not only for the mines, but for other forms of work, if fair wages be offered and considerate treatment in the way of houses and food be accorded."
  I have heard the Colonial Secretary say that there has been no protest against the Ordinance from the Cape Legislature. Here, at any rate, is the formal declaration of the Cape Ministry, and I find that on 4th January, last month, they say that nothing had occurred since the Minute was drafted to alter their views on the subject.
  Then I turn to the other alternative that has been suggested, the larger use of white men. Can anyone looking into these reports come to the conclusion that that alternative has been sufficiently tried by experiment? Why, what is it that happens when an industry anywhere is passing from the stage of cheap labour to better conditions? Everywhere what happens is the introduction of the use of labour-saving appliances. And when it is said that the introduction of Chinese labour would give larger employment to white men, I say that the introduction of labour-saving appliances would equally have that effect, because the machinery would require to be supervised by white men, while the natives did the more unskilled part of the work. So long, however, as muscular machinery, as they call it, is to be had at a cheap rate, no one will trouble themselves about labour-saving appliances. I would ask the House to carry back its mind to what happened, a great many years ago now, in this country, when Lord Shaftesbury and those who acted with him roused the nation on the subject of the condition of our labouring population in many industries. Take the coal mines, what went on in those days in that department of industry? There were not only men, but women and children working down in the mines, girls moving along on all fours, in low and narrow galleries, with chains
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  round their necks, dragging trucks. There were all sorts of horrors of that kind going on. When the conscience of this country was roused to the fact, was anything said about cheap labour, or was any proposal made to introduce Chinese labour here? No, Sir, Parliament immediately ordered that this whole process should be stopped, and left the mine-owners themselves to find the remedy. Well, the mine-owners did find the remedy; the mine-owners, no doubt, had to wait a little while for their profits, and they had to expend a great deal of money, but in the long-run no injury was done either to them or to their industry.
  Turning to the question of the opinion of the Colony, I wish to protest against the idea of treating this Crown colony as a self-governing colony. I do not know what that means; it has certainly deceived nobody, and His Majesty's Government and Parliament are not one whit relieved of their responsibility in the matter by such a statement. Every one in South Africa and here, knows how futile have been the steps taken to ascertain the feeling of the community. I will not recount such circumstances as the compelling of editors of newspapers to resign, and the breaking up of meetings, but the truth is that this attempt to combine Crown government with self-government has led to mine-owners' government. It is astonishing to me that right hon. Gentlemen opposite have so soon forgotten what my hon. friend who has just sat down reminded them of, the purpose for which we went to war in South Africa—the necessity, as we were told, the ardent zeal that was professed for self government. That was the plea that was put before the world, the necessity of having equal rights for all white men as the sole key to contentment and progress, and also the great indignation that was expressed at the treatment of the Kaffir, of whom we hear very little now. In all the interminable correspondence that has taken place; between the Colonial Office and the Transvaal Government, there is not a solitary reminder that I have seen of the existence of the Uitlander. What is the main case which the Colonial Secretary puts forward, what is it that he puts most emphatically before the House? I think I am fairly summing it up in

  105
  these four propositions. First, that Parliament, this country, is threatened with a financial crisis in the Transvaal; secondly, that we have lent £35,000,000 to restore the ravages of the war and to develop the country; thirdly, that we have set up a model, though a costly Government; and, lastly, that that Government cannot pay its way without Chinese labour. That is the contention of the right hon. Gentleman, and he holds out that threat to us—that threat of financial crisis, and loss, and misfortune if we do not agree to this proposal. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight pricked the bubble of that argument at once, in two or three words; he said there is another alternative to your proposal, which is to reduce your expenditure. We attach as little importance to these predictions of evil as we attached last year to the promises of oil and wine, milk and honey, gold and corn, teeming populations and overflowing revenue, which came from the same persons on the same authority. After the desolation caused by such a war, time is required before progress can be made, and in any case, what a sudden reaction from the optimistic mood of last year to the note of despair to-day !
  Our position is clear. We have to think of the character of this country, and also of the interests of the people of the Transvaal, who have had no voice in the matter. The Transvaal is not a Crown colony in the ordinary sense. If I were to describe it I should say it was a Crown colony in a state of probation for being a self-governing colony, and we are asked to take advantage of this brief interval to mortgage the future of the colony be-hind its back. These new fellow-subjects of ours, who have had no voice in this
  106
  matter, when their novitiate is over, are to be started on their career bearing the burden which we are now asked to impose upon them—a burden such as no other self-governing colony in the Empire will bear and which no other self-governing colony would be willing to accept. I ask is that fair to them? Is it fair to us, who have this proposal flung at us without any opportunity of fully examining the details, in the very first days of a session, involving the most sacred traditions of our race and the credit and character of the country? Better, I say, a thousand times that we should go on for a time financing the Transvaal, than that we should bow to such a threat and, by so doing, commit a great wrong and injure our own self-respect and bring upon us the opprobrium of the world.
  The only other question I shall ask is What is the hurry in this matter; why are we, to use a modern word, to be so hustled? The information comes dribbling out day after day, one Blue-book or one Parliamentary paper after another—this very day a new one—and many that we have not yet received at all. But this sort of thing has happened before. An hon. Gentleman who made a speech a short time ago spoke of the resolution that was come to at Bloemfontein. But this question was sprung upon that Conference at Bloemfontein much in the same way as it is sprung upon us; and I observe that Sir Godfrey Lagden, surely not a very partial witness, says, in the Blue-book, that he was surprised at Bloemfontein that no facts and figures were given to sustain the case. It is very much the same with the British House of Commons. What, I ask, is the urgency? The Government are very fond of a mandate. They will not do anything without a mandate. They will not

  107
  disclose a policy until they receive a mandate. But at the last General Election the mandate they received was to end the war and to improve the Army, not to introduce slavery; and I hold that. taking two alternatives, if the Transvaal in its present position is a self governing colony its people ought to he consulted, and if it is a Crown colony, then the people of this country ought to be consulted before we conmit ourselves. No more important-issue could be put before the country, and I venture to say that, if the Government commit the people of this country to this policy, a terrible day of reckoning will certainly come to them.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): obody who knows the right hon. Gentleman will accuse him of unduly trespassing on the time of the House; but I think all will sympathise with him in finding himself in the position of having, for the third time in the course of a fortnight, to wind up a debate for the Opposition on a vote of censure on the Government. The first was based on the conduct of the Government during the war—a debate which began with an impeachment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, and ended, I venture to say, with an impeachment of the Leader of the Opposition. There was a large majority against him on that occasion. [OPPOSITION laughter]. Perhaps hon. Gentlemen opposite will tell me of one single occasion in the Parliament when they were in office when they had a majority of over eighty. On the second occasion the majority showed a number of Gentlemen who, at all events, were agreed upon the policy on which they voted, and the minority contained a body of sixty or seventy Members who, before the division, administered to the
  108
  right hon. Gentleman the reminder that their support was temporary and conditional. Under these circumstances I think we shall all agree that the reappearance of the right hon. Gentleman upon the scene to-night in the same capacity is a triumph of hope over experience. And, like those who indulge too freely in intoxicating liquors, the right hon. Gentleman finds it necessary at each fresh onslaught to double the dose. We began this debate in quiet and reasoned periods which befitted the Amendment. But to-night we have been treated to platform oratory in which the leading part must be assigned to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, who delivered a speech which had no reference to the Ordinance as it appears before us. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman will argue next that any comment which anyone can make upon anybody's public action is to be considered the legitimate and official interpretation of that public action. With regard to the imputation of slavery, let me put to the House the actual facts of the case. That is the imputation which has been repeated over and over again to-night, and which will, of course be repeated over and over again in the country. What are the restrictions under which these men are to go to South Africa, if they please, and obtain labour in the Transvaal which they cannot get in their own country? The Chinaman is free to make his bargain> which will be explained to him by men competent to interpret the matter properly to him before he leaves his own country. He is free to come or to stay away. He binds himself, not for life, but for a period of three years. When he goes to the Transvaal, he is free to labour; and my right hon. friend will take care

  109
  to make it sufficiently clear, in the regulations, that if he desires to leave his employment he will be allowed to do so, subject to the usual proviso, that by his work he should pay the expense of his voyage. Therefore he will be free to terminate his employment provided he can do so without loss to his employers. I am going to make, not a comparison, but an exact parallel. All this fine language, all these heroic terms, have been employed with regard to the circumstances under which men belonging to one of the most intelligent races on the face of the earth are to make a bargain to go for three years into good employment. Is there no other class which this House invites to make a bargain and places under similar restrictions without the imputation of slavery? What about every soldier of the Crown? Allow me to complete the parallel, and then, if necessary, I shall stand corrected. The soldier serves for three years, and the soldier cannot break his engagement except by making a large payment. The indentured labourer in the Transvaal will be confined to his barracks in a "Chinese village," and the soldier is confined to his barracks, and gets leave, as the indentured labourer will, from his superior. The indentured labourer has his hours laid down for him and so has the soldier, without any right of appeal. The indentured labourer has his pay and his food is supplied to him; so has the soldier. The indentured labourer, if he breaks compound or deserts, comes under a penalty; so does the soldier. Then, Sir, are we to be told from that Bench that it is a degradation for the indentured labourer to be subjected, under this proposal, to the same restrictions which are denounced as slavery, which apply to 200,000 men in His Majesty's service?
  110
  The conditions under which they enter are entered into on their part without any sacrifice of their character or of their liberty.
  MAJOR SEELY(who rose amidst cries of "Order")—Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman—[uproar, and loud cries of "Order"]—Mr. Speaker, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question?
  MR. SPEAKER: As the right hon Gentleman the Secretary for India has given way, I hope the House will listen to the hon. and gallant Member.
  MAJOR SEELY: Might I ask. Mr. Speaker, the right hon. Gentleman whether it is within his knowledge that the Government of India have refused to permit British Indian subjects to submit to the degrading conditions of the Ordinance?
  MR. BRODRICK: That assumption has no foundation whatever in fact. Now, I think it will be admitted by those who heard the speech of the Colonial Secretary that he established, by conclusive arguments, a strong case for dealing at once with this labour question. What did he show in his careful review? First, that two years after the war, not only had the supply of labour not been made up, but that there was no prospect of arriving at the necessary amount of labour, and this applied not merely to the mines but to other cases where native labour was required. Another point which he established was that white men cannot be induced, if it was even desirable that they should be induced, to work side by side at unskilled labour, with the black labourer. The third point he made good was that the introduction of Asiatic labour would

  111
  not interfere with white labour, with white wages, or with white morality—while it would greatly advance the country at a moment when, as I shall show, it is being subjected to exceptional strain. I wish to sweep away in one word——
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Hear, hear !
  MR. BRODRICK: I am cheered by the hon. Member for Donegal who made a speech when the House was not so full as it is now. I will specially refer to one sentence of that speech which constitutes, I think, with other remarks a regrettable feature of this debate. I am not going to follow the hon. Member into the aspersions which he cast on a great public servant when he accused Lord Milner, not merely of sympathy with, but of interest in, those millionaires who are making a profit by the mines; nor am I going to deplore the expression of the hon. Member when he said that my right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary was the creature of Lord Milner, who in his turn was the creature of the millionaires.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Hear, hear !
  MR. BRODRICK: I do take notice of the remark, made by many speakers, but especially by the hon. Member for the Wansbeck Division, who generally speaks in this House with great moderation as well as ability, that throughout the whole of this agitation the Government had been in the hands of financiers in Park Lane. That remark in varying terms has been repeated six or seven times this evening. I am not going to insult my colleagues on this Bench by disclaiming for each, individually and collectively, any social, political, or financial interest in any party who are now
  112
  engaged in business in the Transvaal; but I think those who make such charges have little studied the present economic position in the Transvaal. If a change is needed at the present moment, it is not in the interest of the mine-owners or the mine shareholders; but it is because unless there is a change, and a radical change, no man in the colonial or military service can possibly have a decent living at the present prices in the Transvaal. This is not a subject of debate. [Laughter.] It is not a subject of laughter. There are men who have refused appointments in the Army because they could not make both ends meet on the pay in South Africa. In these new Colonies food is dear, house-rent is enormous, and the wages of servants are almost prohibitive. At this moment, apart from that, you have, as the Secretary for the Colonies showed last night, a falling revenue and a considerable debt. Why is that the case? [An HON.MEMBER: "The war."] It is because you have not got enough agricultural labour, and you have not got the labour to extend the railways, in which the Transvaal stands alone among British Colonies in its backwardness at the beginning of the twentieth century. It may be asked; Why do you provide labour for the mines first? The mines pay seven-eighths of the entire revenue of the Transvaal; and if we are to provide for the other necessary services, without which the population must remain as backward as before the war, we must first set the mining industry on a fair level of prosperity, in order to obtain that stability of finance which is necessary to the complete success of the whole.
  The hon. and learned Member for Hawick who spoke a little earlier to-night] made a consistent speech, for

  113
  he has always objected to war. He has always misconceived our motives with regard to the war. He opposed, I believe, the annexation of the Colonies, and therefore he cannot be considered an unbiassed witness as to the measure now to be taken. He spoke with more than his usual earnestness and, perhaps, less than his usual fairness. I will make that good. He attacked my right hon. friend for the remarks he made last night with regard to General Botha. My light hon. friend stated with regard to General Botha that he could not accept him as a witness who represents, as General Botha professes to do, Boer feel-with regard to this matter. The hon. and learned Gentleman went into an argument with regard to the way in which the Commission had taken evidence and spoke of their having been "adepts at suppression and distortion," and objected to the refusal to accept General Botha as representative of Boer feeling. But if General Botha disapproved of Chinese labour, he also plainly told the Commission that what he desired for the Kaffirs was the enforcement of the squatter law, and, by removing them from their locations, the driving of them into agricultural pursuits. That is a policy that will not be accepted by the House, for General Botha's opinions are not accepted by the Boers. My right hon. friend has handed me a telegram received to-night from Lord Milner giving the following letter from Mr. Van Rensburg, a member of the Transvaal Legislative Council. He is a farmer and a Boer representative.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANIs he a Boer representative?
  MR. BRODRICK: I beg pardon. I should say that if the right hon. Gentleman means to ask, was he elected by the
  114
  Boers to represent them, then in that case no doubt he is not a Boer representative. He is a representative Boer.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: A Dablin Castle Boer.
  MR. BRODRICK: His letter says—
  "I have seen in the Press that the despatch your Excellency has cabled to Mr. Alfred Lyttelton contains a letter received from General Botha and signed by him on behalf of certain gentlemen who claim to represent the Boer opinion of the Transvaal on the question of Asiatic immigration. I venture also to write praying your Excellency to cable to Mr. Alfred Lyttelton my protest against the position taken up by General Botha in which he claims that he has the right to represent Boer opinion. British public opinion has far too long been allowed to believe that such is the case. The people of England have been told that because General Botha refused to take the seat offered to him on the Legislative Council therefore the Boers are not represented on that Council, protest against this doctrine going out to the world as a fact. I maintain that Boer opinion is adequately represented in the Legislative Council by five Boer members, of whom I am proud to be one. Each of us would be prepared at any time to contest with General Botha the representation of any country district of the Transvaal with confidence of success."
  On behalf of the Government I may say that we are not prepared to accept General Botha's proposal that we should proceed to coercion of the Kaffirs in order to obtain sufficient labour. We know that there is a great deal of labour which might be obtained if it were possible to impound all labour; but we know that if that labour were obtained there is not sufficient labour in South Africa available among the Kaffirs to fulfil the needs of the Transvaal at the present time. It we are to extend the railways, for which this House has so often loudly cheered, if we are to provide the Boers themselves even with the Kaffir labour which they had before the war, we require, according to some authorities, 60,000, according to others 80,000, or 100,000 more Kaffir

  115
  labourers than at present. What is the alternative you place before the Government by this proposal? If you defeat the Government, which you will not do, You on that side of the House, many of whom during the war I have heard making attacks on the Kaffirs and speaking about their position in the social scale in language which I will not now recapitulate—you will be placing in the hands of Kaffirs the whole monopoly of labour in South Africa, and by doing so you will make the Kaffirs the dictators of the pace at which civilisation should proceed in that country. Do not let it be supposed that by introducing other labour you are handicapping the whites. You are enabling the whites to find subsistence. It is not I who say this. The hon. Member for Camberwell last night said that shiploads of whites were coming away from South Africa, and the other day, when 3,000 or 4,000 Kaffirs left their work on the railways, 600 or 700 whites superintending them had immediately to be dismissed. Nobody has spoken more strongly upon that than the right hon. Member for Aberdeen. He says—
  "All hard labour, all unskilled labour, is, and must be, done by the blacks. The coloured man is indispensable to the white man. He is a necessary part of the economic machinery of the country, whether for mining or for manufacture, for tillage or for ranching."
  An entirely false economic parallel has been drawn between the objection in Australia to the introduction of Chinese labour and the objection in South Africa. There is no parallel between the two cases except this—that both countries are British colonies. In Australia it is a question of the coolie competing against the white man; in Africa it is a question of the yellow man competing against the black man. In Australia the experience has been of unrestricted permanent
  116
  Chinese labour, and in Africa the proposal is to have temporary labour under definite restrictions. We have heard very tall talk with regard to this labour. The Member for Camberwell said that the British soldier would tear off his medals sooner than see the Chinaman performing his religious observances in his own compound; and we have been told that, we are establishing a moral pest spot, and a moral cancer. Some years ago a statesman said that the Australian Colonies taxed the Chinaman and that that was protection pure and simple. They taxed him not because it was the desire of an enlightened race not to associate with a nation of a less degree of enlightenment—not on account of the Chinaman's vices, but because of his virtues, because he did more work for the money, because he consumed less liquor. That is the statement of Mr. Gladstone. It is ten years since the voice of Mr. Gladstone was heard in this House, but I think the echo of these sentiments will be more powerful tonight than some of the utterances to which we have listened. We are asked to delay this Ordinance. My right hon. friend has given some most specific pledges as to the regulations, and those pledges will be specifically observed. What is the Ordinance? The Ordinance is an Ordinance of the Transvaal Legislative Council which the Council has made and the Conned can revoke by it; and if hon. Members opposite upset the Government they can themselves reconsider the subject. When self-government is given to the Transvaal, which hon. Gentleman opposite regard as an early expedient, the colony will itself be able, at any moment it pleases, to deal with this Ordinance. It is hedged about with every restriction which philanthropy can suggest, and I think this House would exercise an

  117
  unwise discretion if it placed any difficulty in the way of the Government to-night. Have we not too often in the past stepped in here to change that which those on the spot advised us to do in connection with our colonies. This is a time when the House should disregard sentimental forebodings which have no foundation, which are in fact appeals to prejudice that may do for the platform, but are too thin for the House of Commons. The House should now express its determination to place the labour question in the Transvaal on such a footing as may tend to the civilising of that colony, and so avoid the difficulties which have been clearly pointed out, and the effects of which may he clearly foreseen.
  MR. CROOKSrose to continue the debate immediately before midnight, and was received with cries of "Order."
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's)*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's) moved that the Question be now put.
  MR CROOKSaddressing the Speaker amid loud cries of "Order," said he desired to be heard.
  MR. SPEAKER: The Question is that the Question be now put.
  MR. CROOKSagain attempted to speak, beginning with the words "Surely, Mr. Speaker," but the remainder of the sentence was lost in cries of "Order." Speaking in a loud voice, which was audible above the clamour, the hon.
  Member said, I feel, Mr. Speaker, that rather than sit silent on this Bench, I am prepared to be suspended from the service of this House.
  MR. SPEAKER: I quite understand that the hon. Member feels strongly on this matter, but, having made his protest, I hope he will not persist in what would be a breach of the Rules of this House, but will acquiesce in those Rules, which were made for the benefit of the whole House.
  MR. CROOKS,again rising amid loud cries of "Order" and some cries of "Name." said: I want to be respectful to the House, but this is a matter on which I feel very strongly. I want to ask you Sir, whether the Government intend by moving the closure to make it impossible for me to speak.
  MR. SPEAKER: The duty is thrown on the Chair of accepting or rejecting the Motion for the closure after it has been proposed. I am sure the hon. Member does not wish to show any disrespect to the Chair. The closure has been moved.
  MR. CROOKSrose again, but was, as before, received with loud cries of "Order." and some cries of "Go on" from his supporters. He, however, quickly resumed his seat.
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 330; Noes, 172. (Division List No. 3.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Arrol, Sir William

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H

  Allsopp, Hon. George,

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh

  Bagot, Capt. Joseeline FitzRoy

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hoult, Joseph

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Balcarres, Lord

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Jameson, Major J. Eustance

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Duffy, William J.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex)

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Joyce, Michael

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Hart

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

  Bignold, Arthur

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Kerr, John

  Bigwood, James

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Keswick, William

  Bill, Charles

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Kimber, Henry

  Blyndell, Colonel Henry

  Field, William

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Boland, John

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Laurie, Lieut. -General

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lawrence, Sir J. (Monmouth)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lawson, John G. (Yorks., N.R.)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Bull, William James

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Forster, Henry William

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Butcher, John George

  Foster, P. H. (Warwick, S.W.

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Campbell, J. H. M (Dublin Univ.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lowe, Francis William

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Garfit, William

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'uth

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lundon, W.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gilhooly, James

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Gordon, Hn. J.E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Gordon, Maj. E. (T'r Hamlets

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Worc

  Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Orms.-(Salop

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Goschen, Hn. George Joachim

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Chapman, Edward

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Hugh, Patrick, A.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Graham, Henry Robert

  M'Kean, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'ry S Edm'nds

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Malcolm, Ian

  Coddington, Sir William

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gretton, John

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hain, Edward

  Maxwell, W.J.H (Dumfriessh-

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Heaton, John Heniker

  Mount, William Arthur

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

  Helder, Augustus

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Delany, William

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Murphy, John

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Dewar, Sir T. R (Tower Hamlets

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Hurray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hobhouse, Rt Hn H. (Somers't, E

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Myers, William Henry

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C.

  Horner, Frederick William

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  120

  121

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Ridley, Hn. M.W.(Stalybridge)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Tollemache, Henry James

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Roche, John

  Tuff, Charles

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Ht Sheff'd

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  O'Dowd, John

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  O'Malley, William

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  O'Mara, James

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Webb, Colonel William George

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Saunderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Rob. Wellesley

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Percy, Earl

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tynesid

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Smith, Hon, W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Spear, John Ward

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Purvis, Robert

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Pym, C. Guy

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Wylie, Alexander

  Randles, John S.

  Stock, James Henry

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Stroyan, John

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Reddy, M.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Young, Samuel

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Sullivan, Donal

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  NOES.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Allen, Charles P.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E

  Asher, Alexander

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry

  Douglas, Charles VI. (Lanark)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hutchinson, D. Charles Fredk

  Austin, Sir John

  Edwards, Frank

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Elibank, Master of

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Ellice, Capt E. C (S. Andrw'sBghs

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshir

  Bell, Richard

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Jordan Jeremiah

  Black, Alexander William

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Kearley, Hudson, E.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kilbride, Denis

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Labouchere, Henry

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lambert, George

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Langley, Batty

  Burns, John

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W

  Burt, Thomas

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Llayland-Barratt, Francis

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Grant, Corrie

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington

  Caldwell, James

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Cameron, Robert

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Leng, Sir John

  Campbell- Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hammond, John

  Levy, Maurice

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Cawley, Frederick

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydv.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Lough, Thomas

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Harwood, George

  MacDonnell, Dr, Mark A.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Crombie, John William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  M'Crae, George

  Crooks, William

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  122

  123

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Tomkinson, James

  Mansfield, Horace Kendall

  Rose, Charles Day

  Toulmin, George

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, X.

  Runciman, Walter

  Trekelyan, Charles Philips

  Mooney, John J.

  Russell, T. W.

  Ure, Alexander

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wallace, Robert

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Shackleton, David James

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Newnes, Sir George

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Nolan, Co. John P. (Galway, X

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Norman, Henry

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Slack, John Bamford

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Rea, Russell

  Stevenson. Francis S.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Reekitt, Harold James

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wood, James

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Tennant, Harold John

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

  Rigg, Richard

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Thomson, F. W. (Kork, W. R.)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Tillet, Louis John

  Question put accordingly, "That those words be there added."
  The House divided:—Ayes 230; Noes 281. (Division List No. 4.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork. N.E.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gilhooly, James

  Allen, Charles P.

  Crombie, John William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Ambrose, Robert

  Crooks, William

  Grant, Corrie

  Asher, Alexander

  Cullinan, J.

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Hain, Edward

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Hammond, John

  Austin, Sir John

  Delany, William

  Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

  Hardie, J. Keir (M'rth'r T'dvil)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, X.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Harwood, George

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Bell, Richard

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Black, Alexander William

  Duffy, William J.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Boland, John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Edwards Frank

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Elibank, Master of

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Ellice, Capt E. C (SAndrw's Bghs

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Emmott, Alfred

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Burns, John Burt, Thomas

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Caldwell, James

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Cameron, Robert

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Joyce, Michael

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Ffrench, Peter

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Field, William

  Kilbride, Denis

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Kitson, Sir James

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Labouchere, Henry

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lambert, George

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Langley, Batty

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Dowd, John

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, X.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  O'Malley, William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Leng, Sir John

  O'Mara, James

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Shee, James John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Lloyd-George, David

  Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Lough, Thomas

  Partington, Oswald

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lundon, W.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Priestley, Arthur

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rea, Russell

  Tillet, Louis John

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Tomkinson, James

  M'Crae, George

  Reddy, M.

  Toulmin, George

  M'Hugh, Patrick, A.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  M'Kean, John

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Ure, Alexander

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Wallace, Robert

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Rigg, Richard

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Mitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs).

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Mooney, John J.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney)

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Weir, James Galloway

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Roche, John

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Morley, Rt. Hn. Jn. (Montrose)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Murphy, John

  Rose, Charles Day

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Runciman, Walter

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Newnes, Sir George

  Russell, T. W.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wilson. John (Durham, Mid.)

  Norman, Henry

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Shackleton, David James

  Wood, James

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsf'd

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Young, Samuel

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Yoxall, James Henry

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sheehy, David

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Slack, John Bamford

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Colomb, Sir Jn. Charles Ready

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Brown, Sir Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Arrol, Sir William

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bull, William James

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Butcher, John George

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balcarres, Lord

  Carlile, William Walter

  Davenport, W. Bromley

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Dewar, Sir T. R (Tower Haml'ts

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Banbury, Sir Frederick (George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C

  Bartley, Sir George C. T.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mich. Hicks

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Chapman, Edward

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Bignold, Arthur

  Charrington, Spencer

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Bigwood, James

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Bill, Charles

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Coddington, Sir William

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  126

  127

  Faber, George Denis (York)

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Roberts, Jamuel (Sheffield)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monmouth)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lawson, John G. (Yorks., N.R.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Flower, Sir Ernest

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Forster, Henry William

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Saunderson, Rt.Hn. Col. Edw.)

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Fyler, John Arthur

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Garfit, William

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, H. C (North'mb Tyneside

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gordon, Maj. E. (T'r Hamlets

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Spear, John Ward

  Gore, Hn. G.R.C. Orms.-(Salop

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur Ormskirk

  Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh.

  Stock, James Henry

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton

  Stroyan, John

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Mitchell, William (Burnley)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chicheter)

  Gretton, John

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf' d Univ.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw, M.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tuff, Charles

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffield

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mount, William Arthur

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Heath, A. Howard (Hanley)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N.W.)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Helder, Augustus

  Myers, William Henry

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hobhouse, Rt Hn H (Somers't, E

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightsde

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Horner, Frederick William

  Percy, Earl

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pilkington, Colonel Richard

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Plummer, Walter R,

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath

  Hunt, Rowland

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Purvis, Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Randles, John S.

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H

  Rankin, Sir James

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. Denbigh)

  Ratcliff, R, F.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Kerr, John

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Keswick, William

  Ridley, Hn. M.W.(Stalybridge)

  Kimber, Henry

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Main Question again proposed.
  And, it being after Midnight the debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
  Adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock.