Sitting of 13 August 1904

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the Clock.
PETITIONS.
  EAST INDIA (PRINCES' AND CHIEFS' GRAND JURY).
  Petition from Cambridge and other places, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS ACT, 1897.
  Petitions for alteration of Law; from Barry; and Brighouse; to lie upon the Table.
  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
    PUBLIC RECORDS (IRELAND.)
    Copy presented, of Thirty-sixth Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records and Keeper of the State Papers in Ireland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) ACT, 1898, AND REGISTRATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1898 (ORDERS AND RULES).
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th August; Mr. Wyndham]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 363.]
    VAGRANCY.
    Copy presented, of Report to the President of the Local Government Board on methods of dealing with Vagrancy in Switzerland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

    PAUPERISM AND DEATH RATE.
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 12th August; Sir Walter Foster];

    515
    to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 364.]

    MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
    Copy presented, of Orders in Council of 10th August, 1904 (a) revoking Orders in Council of 5th May, 1873, and 29th January, 1904, relating to the remeasurement of French ships in this country; and (b) exempting from remeasurement in His Majesty's Dominions French ships whose certificates of registry are dated on or after 1st July, 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    FOREIGN JURISDICTION ACT, 1890.
    Copy presented, of Orders in Council of 10th August, 1904, entitled respectively, The Southern Rhodesia Order in Council, 1904, and The Zanzibar Order in Council, 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    PATENTS ACT, 1902.
    Copy presented, of Order made by the Board of Trade, in pursuance of Section 1(11) of The Patents Act, 1902, fixing the date for the coming into operation of the Section [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
    Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table:—List of the Bills, Reports, Estimates, and Accounts and Papers printed by order of the House, and of Papers presented by Command, Session 1904, with a General Alphabetical Index thereto, 27th Parliament, Fifth session, 4th Edward VII., 2nd February, 1904, to 15th August, 1904; to be printed. [No. 365.]
    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (EDUCATION).
    Return ordered, "showing the extent to which, and the manner in which, Local Authorities in England and Wales have applied funds to the purposes of Technical Education, and of other forms of Education other than elementary, during the year 1903–4, under the following Acts: Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Act, 1890; Technical Instruction Acts, 1889 and 1891; Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889; Public Libraries and Museums Acts; and Education Act, 1902."—(Sir William Anson.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Irish Land—Compensation for Surrender of Holdings to Evicted Tenants.
  MR. KILBRIDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a letter from the Estates Commissioners to John Purcell, Esq.,D.C., Arless, Queen's County, representing Mr. P. J. McLaughlin, an evicted tenant now in America, in which it is expressly stated that the Estates Commissioners have no power to compel the tenant in occupation of the evicted farm to give it up, or to compensate him for doing so; and, if so, whether, in view of the statements to the effect that such persons could be compensated, made during the passage of the Irish Land Bill last session and since, he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to give such power to the Estates Commissioners.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The hon. Member has been good enough to furnish me with a copy of the letter in question. But some misunderstanding seems to exist because the apparently simple question, "can the Estates Commissioners make an advance for the purpose of compensating a tenant for leaving his holding?" raises several issues which in reality are distinct. (1). In the case of a holding forming part of an estate which is not "purchased or proposed to be purchased" no advance can be made. Such a case is outside the scope of Section 12 of the Irish Land Act, 1903. (2.) In the case of a holding forming part of an estate "purchased or proposed to be purchased," compensation may be paid, under Sections 12 and 43, for the "benefit or improvement" of that estate, or "generally for the purposes" of the Act, one of which is the restoration of evicted tenants in connection with a transaction for sale, but not otherwise. (3.) The suggestion that compensation may be paid for this purpose seems sometimes to be made in respect of a third category of cases, viz., where the present holder has purchased under a previous Land Act. On such cases I express no opinion, and refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 19th July

  517
  to the hon. Member for Tipperary, South.†

  Visits of Women Inspectors to Army Clothing Factory.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office what was the date of the latest visit of any member of the women inspectors' staff from the Home Office to the Army Clothing works since the visit of His Majesty's principal woman inspector in the time of his predecessor and prior to the deputation; and at what date the electric fans now used were put in.
  (Answered by Mr. Bromley Davenport.) In reply to the first part of the Question, there has been no visit since the one referred to. In reply to the second part of the Question, four electric fans were put in about 20th July last, and four more on the 4th August. These are additional to the nine fans in the Inspection Department, which have been in use since last November.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Pimlico Army Clothing Works.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office on what dates, since the promise of improvement in ventilation given to the deputation which waited on the late Secretary of State for War and the late Financial Secretary in August last, the Pimlico Army Clothing Works have been inspected by any Home Office inspector; and what was the instrument used by the inspector who visited the works after the death of Alice Wright for ascertaining the proportion of carbon dioxide in the air.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BROMLEY DAVENPORT,): The dates of visits by a Home Office inspector to the Army Clothing Factory since the date of the deputation on various questions connected with the Royal Army
  †See(4) Debates, cxxxviii., 407.
  518
  Clothing Department, to which the right hon. Baronet presumably alludes, were 28th November, 1903; 24th March; 23rd and 24th June, 1904. I have ascertained from the Home Office that the samples of air were taken by the Inspector in bottles, six in number, on the 24th June, and were sent to Mr. W. J. A. Butterfield, consulting chemist, for analysis, who probably tested them by the Petters Koffer method.

  Shrewsbury Municipal Charities.
  MR. H. D. GREENE: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Tunbridge, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether any fresh scheme for the Shrewsbury Municipal Charities has been approved or framed by the Commissioners, and when it is likely to be made public, and whether it will be in operation before November.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN: No scheme has yet been framed by the Charity Commissioners for the Shrewsbury Municipal Charities, as the Commissioners have not yet received the necessary application from the trustees.

  Swine Fever in Midlothian.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he is in a position to make any further statement with regard to swine fever in Midlothian and the very considerable grievance felt by the farmers on the borders thereof.
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWESwas understood to say, in reply, that the county of Midlothian was now free from the disease, with the exception, perhaps, of two spots which might still be looked upon as dangerous. He understood the complaint was that the three counties bordering on Midlothian would not accept swine freely from Midlothian. He would venture to suggest that they should do all in their power to get the two spots clear and when that was done they would have a strong case to put before the adjoining counties for the removal of the restrictions against their pigs.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
Alexander Findlay, esquire, for the County of Lanark (North Eastern Division).

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
Moved, "That this House do meet on Monday next, at Five of the clock."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: May we take it that there will be no business at all on Monday except the formal business of the prorogation.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD,): So far as I know, there will be none; but, of course, if the Lords amend the Bills sent up to them, those Bills will have to come back to the House of Commons.
Resolved, "That this House do meet on Monday next, at Five of the clock."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
[Third Reading.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."
MR. WEIRregretted that it should be his duty on what was practically the last day of the session to bring forward and a number of important questions, but it was not his fault, for he was not responsible for the distribution of the time of the House. In the first place, he desired to touch upon matters connected with education in Scotland and to the Reports which had been issued on physical deterioration and physical training. These Reports dwelt specially upon the unsatisfactory condition of many of the schools, which were badly ventilated and insanitary. He himself had visited many of the schools, especially in his own constituency, and he had found their condition so bad that he was compelled to ask the attention of the House to the matter.
520
Not only were they ill-ventilated but there was a lack of a proper water supply. In some cases the children had to drink water from streams which were used by cattle and horses. In his opinion every school should have a proper water supply, and should be properly ventilated, otherwise how could they expect the little ones to grow up strong and healthy. Then he thought more attention should be paid by the school authorities to the teaching of domestic economy and cookery, and he hoped the central board would circularise the teachers again on that subject. Another matter with which he wished to deal was connected with the carriage of fish and agricultural produce from the Highlands. Months ago he addressed a communication to the Secretary for Scotland on the subject and elicited a promise that some action should be taken. He would again impress upon the right hon. Gentleman the importance of actively intervening. Some of the companies were at the present time charging most exorbitant rates for the carriage of fish, and, in addition to that, there was so much delay with the traffic that the fish on arrival was often unfit for sale, so that the consignor had to lose the value of the consignment as well as to pay unduly heavy carriage rates.
Next he desired to submit one or two matters to the Colonial Secretary on the question of the education of the Tamil coolie children in Ceylon. He had already addressed several Questions to the right hon. Gentleman on this subject, but hitherto had failed to obtain a satisfactory answer. This was a matter which Sir West Ridgeway, the late Governor, should have attended to years ago, but instead of looking after the welfare of the people whom he was deputed to govern he indulged in elephant hunting. Ceylon had a population of 3,500,000 and of these only 750,000 were able to read and write. There was an enormous number of children on the estates, but only about 2,000 of them was receiving a systematic education. On many estates there were no schools at all for these Tamil coolie children, and planters were in the habit of putting them to work at the early age of six years. Now a very different regime obtained in British Guiana. There planters were subject to a heavy

521
fine for failure to provide proper education, and they were not allowed to employ children under nine years of age. A Report was sent to the Colonial Secretary on the state of affairs in Ceylon some time since, but up to the present its publication had been withheld. He had been told that it was not of a very satisfactory character.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to refer to a Report which is not on the Table of the House.
MR. WEIRsaid he would not, of course, press the point further, but would content himself with urging on the Colonial Secretary that something should be done for the education of the Tamil coolie children. Surely such a disastrous state of things should not be allowed to exist any longer in a British colony! Let the right hon. Gentleman stop the planters employing the children in the fields at six years of age, and let the Government take a lesson from what was done in British Guiana. In his opinion the Colonial Secretary, if he would only examine into the matter for himself, would blame Sir West Ridgeway for devoting himself to elephant hunting instead of looking after the interests of the people over whom he ruled.
He desired to call the attention of the Colonial Secretary to the terribly insanitary condition of the Chinese houses in Hong-Kong. In many of these houses two or three hundred persons were to be found living in cubicles without ventilation or light. Wealthy merchants, both British and Chinese, bought up the land and erected enormously high houses. He asked the right hon. Gentleman if he would endeavour to put a stop to that sort of thing. He believed there was no colony more corrupt than Hong-Kong. There the speculator seemed to have everything very much his own way. It was a disgrace to our Empire. The hon. Member also called attention to the desirability of having the obstructions on the Canton River removed. Negotiations on this matter had been going on with the Chinese Government for years. He was informed some time ago that a survey was being made. No survey was needed. The obstructions ought to be removed so that British
522
vessels would be able to have free passage on the river. As to our Consular reports, he said that they were of a most meagre description compared with those of the American and German Consuls, and he urged that fuller reports should be obtained in view of their great usefulness to merchants and traders. The offices of our Consuls were open two hours a day less than those of America and Germany. They were open only from ten to twelve, and from two to four, and ships' captains who wanted to see our Consuls frequently found that they were unable to do so. He complained of the lack of provision for the poor of Egypt, and also of the inadequate accommodation for lunatics. He expressed the hope that attention would be given to these matters, and that something would be done to improve the present state of matters. They were told that the lash had been abolished, but that was not correct, for he himself had seen the police thrash men in the most abominable fashion. That was a state, of matters which should not be allowed in any country under the control of Great Britain. So long as the Prime, Minister took the course he had recently taken in limiting the opportunities for debate, private Members would be. obliged to avail themselves of such opportunities as the present to bring these matters before the House.
SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid there were one or two points to which he wished to refer briefly, as no other opportunity had occurred during the session for calling attention to them. He drew the Colonial Secretary's attention to the question of the development of Cyprus, expressing the hope that the right lion. Gentleman would continue the policy of his predecessor (the right hon. J. Chamberlain). The great difficulty in the island was the payment of the tribute, which he hoped would at least be commuted at no distant date. In many respects much had been done for the people of the island, and he would like to know what had been the progress made with irrigation works, which were absolutely essential, when they were likely to be completed, and whether any indication had already been given of their success. The harbour works at,

523
Famagusta, as to which he should be glad to hear a report of progress, Larnaca, and Limasol were also of great moment; and he hoped something would be done with reference to the railways for which the surveys had been made. He was quite sure if some attention were paid to the island as a place for cotton growing, and for the wine, silk, and other industries and many other purposes, not only would it be developed, but at the same time it might be made, in the end, a source of revenue instead of a burden, by way of annual deficit chiefly caused by the tribute, on the British Exchequer. He hoped he might have some assurance that the subject was not being lost sight of, and he acknowledged that, in the correspondence he had had with the right hon. Gentleman, he had met with great courtesy and consideration.
He should also like to draw attention to the matter of special schools, which had not been dealt with in the recent satisfactory statement of the Secretary to the Board of Education; he referred specially to navigation and nautical schools. These had been the subject of correspondence by himself with the Department, and Regulation 39 now provided that the Board might continue the Science and Art Grants made in 1903–4 during the following year. So far so good, and he thanked the hon. Baronet the Parliamentary Secretary for Education (Sir William Anson) for having met the case by prolonging the grants for a year by means of that temporary regulation. But that was a temporary continuance, and he hoped that the nautical and navigation schools would be dealt with in a special manner and as special schools. He spoke especially for the Trinity House Navigation School in Hull, one of the best in the country, and one which had contributed to the mercantile marine most able masters and mates, and in its time to the Royal Navy an Admiral of the Fleet, Sir John Lawson. It had an excellent master, and it was doing the very best work. There were other schools in the country to which the same remarks applied, and, while he thanked the hon. Baronet for what he had done in continuing the grants for 1904–5, he hoped that he would be able to assure the House that these most
524
valuable and characteristically national schools would meet with special consideration and be provided for by special regulations. It might be true that the curriculum of the Hull Trinity House School was not as that of any other nautical school or of any secondary school in England or in France or in Germany, but no other school was doing the same work so successfully, and the high mathematical training was most disciplinary and useful, and if the age of the boys was low this was necessary in seafaring training. He hoped, therefore, that the continuation of the cessation of the Science and Art Grants for the day classes in such schools would not be adhered to, and he thanked the Board of Education for the temporary regulation and for the promised interview on the subject in the autumn, which he hoped would result in the permanent continuance of the grants.
MR. PIERPOINTsaid he wished to take exception to the statement of the hon. Member who had just spoken when he spoke of the Island of Cyprus as being a burden on this country. Far from being a burden, as the Colonial Secretary well knew, the island relieved England and France from payment of a debt guaranteed by them.
SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid that what he really meant was, that owing to the payment of the tribute there was a balance left against the island which was met by the British Exchequer. He believed that the island would prove of great benefit to this country.
MR. PIERPOINTsaid he was very glad to have given the hon. Member an opportunity of making that explanation. The Exchequer was relieved by our possession of the island of the payment of £41,000, and France was relieved to the same extent under the Crimean Guarantee Loan of 1855. When Captain Singe and Mr. Suter were captured by brigands in Macedonia, application was made to the Treasury for the ransom demanded. After a very proper homily that the Treasury could not be held responsible for every adventurous Englishman, the ransom was paid out of the surplus accumulations of the Cyprus tribute. His hon. friend said he hoped that the Cyprus tribute

525
might be commuted, and if nothing better could be done he joined in the hope that some day it would be commuted. He, however, referred his right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary to the wording of the original bond of 1878. The words were, "England will pay." There was nothing whatever in the bond about what Cyprus would pay, and there was no consultation with the Cypriotes before the bond was entered into. It had since been interpreted not that England would pay, but that Cyprus would pay. As a legal question, he submitted to his right hon. friend that it could not be maintained that the tenants on land which was mortgaged were liable for the interest on the mortgage, but that was what the course adopted in regard to Cyprus meant. Part of the original intention was that Cyprus should be made a place d'armes, and that there would be a large Imperial expenditure in the island. That intention had, however, been abandoned, and practically nothing had been spent. The whole garrison in the island consisted of only one company of infantry.
He desired to put before the Colonial Secretary an idea which had been favourably considered by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor. It was that a great deal might be done for the island by making it a free port and emporium for the Near East, so that shippers from England might accumulate their goods in Cyprus, whence they might be distributed throughout Syria, Asia Minor, and other Turkish territory, so as to obviate two Customs tariffs. That would be a great benefit to the island and to the merchants of this country. Reports showed the difficulties these Cypriotes had to contend with from recurring droughts. In 1902–3 £25,000 had actually to be spent in relief works. He thought the House would acknowledge that it was rather hard that from an average revenue of £180,000 they should be liable to pay a tribute of nearly£93,000. The consequence was that nearly every year Cyprus had to come to this country for a grant-in-aid amounting to about £30,000, on the average. But this was after the payment of £41,000 to the 1855 bondholders in this country, and £41,000 to the French bond-
526
holders. That left a balance of £11,000 as the amount which this country benefited by the possession of Cyprus. Had the circumstances been properly considered before the Convention of 1878 he could not help feeling that no such burden would have been put on the island. He knew that a high authority had said that it was quite impossible for the island to bear this burden, and that England ought to pay it. There was another matter of a totally different nature to what he wished to refer. He regretted to have to raise the question in the absence of the Prime Minister. His point was to press on the Prime Minister to make some reasonable change in the new rules of the House.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I would remind the hon. Gentleman that this matter does not arise in discussion of the Bill now before the House.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid that he wished to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that a Committee had been appointed to inquire into the functions of the various Government Departments. Instead of an inquiry into all the Departments, the Committee had so far only reported with regard to the Board of Trade and the Local Government Board. He hoped that next session the Committee would continue its investigations with a view to the improvement of the machinery of administration in this country and the prevention of overlapping. On 3rd March of last year, a Committee was appointed to consider the question, and it reported about a year ago; but, like many other Reports, very little notice was taken of it, and no satisfactory reply regarding it could be obtained from the Prime Minister. There was no country in the civilised world which had such difficult methods of administering its great Departments as had this country. They knew how the Board of Trade was constituted; and the wonder was it did such good work in the absence of all it s members except the President. With regard to the Home Office, it was notorious that justice was more expensive in this country than in any other; and that there were, in consequence, more miscarriages of justice. It was also a

527
well-known fact that it was the advocate who won the case, not the justice of it. He knew a case involving very intricate questions in which the lawyer engaged threw up his brief to accept a better one.
MR. SPEAKER: This does not appear to be relevant. On what particular portion of the Estimates does the hon. Gentleman base his remarks?
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he desired to point out that the Home Office was the only Ministry of Justice in this country; and the House of Commons had no means of supervising its general administration. He would not, however, pursue the point. He would wish to refer to the Police Courts, over which the Home Office had jurisdiction. There was a case in which a school board summoned—
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The Home Office advises as to the remission of sentences; but the cases themselves are deal twith by the police magistrates, whose salaries are not upon the Estimates.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he would, of course, bow to the ruling of the Chair. He desired, however, to mention a case of injustice which had occurred in a Police Court.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That cannot be done now.
MR. LOUIS SINCLAIRsaid he was sorry he was out of order. He wonld revert to the overlapping of great Departments. Instead of having, as in other countries, a Ministry of Commerce, a Ministry of the Interior, and a Ministry of Justice, there were offices of State in this country in which no duties were performed except the duty of accepting salary. It was a pity, in these days of competition, that they should have the Board of Trade constituted as it was centuries ago, and that they should have a Home Office without the necessary machinery to perform its duties. He hoped that next session the Prime Minister would be able to consider the Report with reference to the proper education of commercial attachés, as it was of the greatest importance that the
528
Consular service should be administered by sound business men.
MR. CHARLES DEVLINsaid that a sum of £6,000 appeared in the Irish Development Grant for a dredger; and the Chief Secretary stated that it was intended for the harbours on the north and east coasts of Ireland. He himself mentioned that the dredger would also be required on the west coast; and the Chief Secretary then stated that it would be sent all round. He had brought the matter before the House on several occasions; and the Chief Secretary led him to expect that the dredger would be available as soon as possible, especially for the harbour of Galway. For years Galway had been asking for a dredger; and the result of its not having been supplied was that the docks were being silted up, and could not be properly used. He asked that the dredger, which was now being provided, should be placed, as soon as possible, at the disposal of the Harbour Board of Galway. There was another point he wished to mention. Last year he put a Question to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then Postmaster-General, with reference to the mail service to Canada and the United States. The right hon. Gentleman then said that the harbour of Galway would be considered in connection with the service. He, himself, was satisfied that Galway was the natural terminus for the service. Great advantages would be gained by its selection. The distance would be shortened by 400 miles, and there would be a saving of a day in the delivery of the mails. The session, so far as the Irish Members were concerned, had not been satisfactory. It was not through any fault of theirs, but they found themselves face to face with a Government that did not care a rap for Ireland, and who were only anxious to take as much and give as little as was possible to Ireland. He contended that the money taken from Ireland belonged to the Irish people and should go back to them.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,)referring to observations made concerning Cyprus, said that a memorial from the elective

529
members in Cyprus in regard to agriculture, which he presumed included irrigation, and also in regard to the harbour works at Famagusta, had expressed satisfaction with the administration of the island. He would give the hon. Member who desired information full details hereafter. Great benefit to Cyprus had resulted from the remission of taxation. On an income of £190,000 a year there had been a net remission of more than £20,000 a year; and the manner of collecting the taxes had been improved in a way that was markedly beneficial to the taxpayers. As regarded the education of native children in Ceylon, a Report had recently been received suggesting certain reforms. He had consulted educational authorities of high standing in this country on the subject, and hon. Members might be satisfied that this matter had not been lost sight of. He regretted that in the absence of notice he could not answer inquiries by the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty regarding certain Chinese residents in Hong-Kong.
Sin G. DOUGHTYdesired to join earnestly in the appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education in respect to the grant to the nautical and navigation schools, which had rendered numerous and important services to the mercantile marine. He hoped that the Secretary of the Education Department, in considering this question would, if possible, endeavour to so arrange the grant that it might be permanent, because it was a very great advantage to the mercantile marine generally, and more particularly to the fisheries of the United Kingdom. The Trinity House School at Hull and other institutions had rendered enormous services to the fisheries in matters of nautical education and they attached very great importance to their continuance and general efficiency. He was exceedingly pleased with the statement which the right hon. Gentleman had made as to the working of the Education Act. He also referred to the question of the extension of communication with Iceland and the Faröe Islands. It was more than three years since the Postmaster-General was approached, but
530
they had heard nothing definite from him. For several months in the year those islands were disconnected, and in the case of the Norge disaster the other day a number of poor people were landed on the Faröe Islands and it was a week before we knew anything about it. He hoped the Postmaster-General would do something in the matter.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,)in reply, said it was perfectly true that the nautical schools did not come within the category of schools other than elementary, which the Board of Education assisted. They were, however, fully sensible of the special advantages in the preparation of boys for the Navy, and they were also fully convinced of the valuable work done by the schools referred to, but he hoped the hon. Member would not press him to go further.
MR. CROOKSasked for information with regard to the ventilation of the clothing works at Pimlico, and urged on the President of the Local Government Board the desirability of encouraging more activity on the part of his inspectors in promoting the sanitation of London districts. He asked whether some of the energy expended by the Department on the promotion of vaccination could not be devoted to the prevention of overcrowding. Certain landlords in the East End were getting three times the rental value of their property because of the overcrowding permitted. The sanitary inspector ought to be compelled to do his duty as well as the vaccination officer. Why should not coercion be put into operation against overcrowding, which tended to make unworthy people rich? Whenever anything was wanted hon. Members could always get sympathetic replies from the various Departments, but they were invariably told that the matter had had to go to the Treasury and had there been vetoed. For instance, there was the Report of the Bradford Committee. Doubtless the sympathetic words of the Postmaster-General would be very comforting to the poor postmen, but of what practical use would they be? The

531
Treasury stood in the way. During the winter the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary would doubtless be considering the Budget for next year, and he asked that they should give some attention to the natural and proper demands of the postal servants for better remuneration. They ought not to plead that there was no money in the country. The Government got the money somehow, and they spent it somehow, but it did not go to the benefit of those who needed it most. It always seemed to be a case of greasing the fat sow; those who had most were given most. Government servants ought to be paid the standard rate of wages. It would doubtless mean an increase of expenditure, but it would probably result in a decrease of rates, because when people were paid so badly they could not obtain proper food, and then when they broke down their medical attendance had to be paid for by the rates. If men were worth employing they were worth feeding and keeping properly. The Government were exceedingly generous in making grants to places like Cyprus—of which he knew nothing except by reading—and why should they not make a few grants in aid of people of whom we did know something? Money was urgently needed for the provision of houses in many parts of the country, and he suggested that the Government might be well advised if they advanced a million or two for that purpose.
MR. SPEAKER: These are matters for legislation; they do not arise on the administrative work of the Government.
MR. CROOKSsaid the idea he had in mind was that the money might be spent so much better than was now the case. Those who lived amongst the humblest and poorest of the people knew what struggles there would be for work and food during the coming winter, and he wished to urge that next year matters should be so arranged that the money of the nation was not wasted but put to purposes for the benefit of the community at large.
MR. DELANYexpressed his regret at the
532
barrenness of the session so far as Ireland Was concerned. The Irish people had been led to believe that the University question would be settled, but their hopes had been disappointed. The Government had secured their "Landlords' Bonus" Bill, and he urged that during the winter now that the one obstacle to the working of the Land Act from the landlords' point of view had been removed, the Government should give the Act a fair trial, that they should not use their influence on the one side or the other, so as to see whether or not the Land Act, now on its trial, was a workable measure. He strongly appealed for a fair trial to be given to the provisions affecting evicted tenants.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.

CUNARD AGREEMENT BILL.
[THIRD READING.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."
MR. CALDWELLsaid that this Bill was promoted with three objects in view, first, to provide the Admiralty with two ships superior in speed to anything they at present possessed; secondly, to provide as far as possible for the transfer of these ships to the British flag; and, thirdly, to uphold the prestige of the British flag in the matter of speedy communications on the Atlantic route. These were Imperial objects of the first importance. The speed of the Atlantic steamers had very greatly increased of late years. In 1887 it was eighteen knots an hour, a speed then looked upon as remarkable; it was now twenty three knots and there was no reason why in the ordinary development of commerce the speed should not be increased. There was no difficulty in building vessels which would make the Atlantic trip in five days; the only reason it was not done was that it suited the shipbuilders to increase the

533
speed gradually. Germany now had ships going at twenty-three knots an hour, and the Government proposed by this agreement to go one better and get ships which would go twenty-four and a half knots. If they accomplished it, Germany would build still faster boats, and the only result of this high-speed subsidy would be to create a rivalry in the building of fast boats which would leave us no better off than we were now. In Germany it had been found out that these high speeds could be attained on commercial lines. Foreign vessels were only subsidised in certain cases, as for instance, when they opened new routes, not yet developed, where but for the subsidy it would be impossible to run, but even in those cases those vessels were only subsidised for ten years, the subsidy decreasing year by year. The Government was going to enter into this agreement, and get this line to build ships with a speed of twenty-five knots and give them a subsidy for naval and Admiralty purposes. That was a new policy which Germany would follow, and the ultimate result to us would be nothing. Take the case of the "Campania." She was now out of the Admiralty list, because she could not do twenty-one knots; when first built she could do twenty-one knots, and if the Government had come down to the House in 1887, and made such a contract with regard to the "Campania," we should be paying now for a vessel that was of no use to us. That was what he predicted would be the fate of this agreement. Either it would fail, or if it did succeed it would bring about rivalry which ultimately could be of no benefit to this country. All the Post Office contracts for the carriage of mails were made for the vessel to com-
534
plete the voyage in a certain time, in a certain number of days. In the case of the Peninsular and Oriental contracts a certain number of hours were allowed for the ships to get from port to port, and there were penalties for being out of time. But in the agreement with the Cunard, that matter was left quite open; it was left in a general way; they were to go as fast as possible subject to safe navigation. The Post Office paid by weight and not by subsidy, and so far as this contract with the Cunard was concerned, if it was a me e contract for the carrying of letters, this country had no more interest in carrying letters to America than America had in bringing letters over here, We had hitherto refused to subsidise vessels running between this and foreign countries; the only subsidy we gave was to vessels going to our own Colonies. He warned the Government that this agreement would not be ultimately to our benefit, and that they would find, when it came to a question of building ships capable of a high rate of speed, that the Germans could build vessels to go quite as quickly as any we could build.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time and passed.

CAPITAL EXPENDITIURE (MONEY) BILL.
Read the third time, and passed.

POST OFFICE (EAST INDIA, CHINA, AND AUSTRALIA MAILS).
Motion made, and Question proposed, 'That the Contract dated the 25th day of July, 1904, between the Postmaster-General and the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, for the conveyance of the East India, China, and Australia Mails, printed in Parliamentary

535
Paper No. 328. of session 1904, be approved."—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)
MR. CALDWELLsaid he could not allow this contract to pass without protest. It was one of the most important contracts which the Government had, and one in which the people of India were very deeply interested. The object of this Resolution was to renew for three years the existing contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Company at an increase of £10,000 a year. There had been many complaints with regard to the Peninsular and Oriental service to India as to the exorbitant rates for passengers. It might be said that the ships of other countries running to India were subsidised, but in such cases there was always a proviso regulating the passenger fares. On the English lines the interest of the traders and the passengers travelling were not consulted at all. He noticed that the time was to be shortened by twenty-four hours, but from past experience of the Peninsular and Oriental Company they might know that there would be no increase of speed, and the time of the journey would not be shortened in any way. The Peninsular and Oriental Company did not keep up to their time at all. We had the slowest boats on the India, China, and Ceylon stations, because the Government had practically given a monopoly to this company. The enormous subsidy that the Government paid represented a 12 per cent. dividend on the capital of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and it kept off all British competition. Foreign competition could take care of itself, and the best boats on those routes were the German boats. He recognised that this was a contract that must be renewed every three
536
years. He did not take exception to that course, but he felt it necessary to bring before the notice of the noble Lord the great dissatisfaction which existed with regard to this monopoly, in the hope that something would be done in the direction of getting competitive tenders, either for the whole or for sections of this service. A huge monopoly of this kind was detrimental to communication between this country and India. He hoped no time would be lost by the Post Office in making arrangements for inviting competitive tenders in order to get rid of this monopoly.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,said he agreed with a great deal of what the hon. Member had said. The Government were only asking for this contract for another three years in order to give them time to arrange a competitive scheme which would give all those who desired to compete time to build vessels in order to join in the competition for this contract.
Resolved, "That the Contract dated the 25th day of July, 1904, between the Postmaster-General and the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, for the conveyance of the East India, China, and Australia Mails, printed in Parliamentary Paper, No. 328, of session 1904, be approved."—(M. Victor Cavendish.)
Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 2nd day of August, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
Adjourned at thirteen minutes after Two o'clock till Monday next.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  PUBLIC RECORDS (IRELAND).
  Thirty-sixth Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Records for the year 1903. Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  PATENTS ACT, 1902.
  Order made by the Board of Trade in pursuance of Section 1, Sub-section 2, of the Act, fixing the date for the coming g into operation of the section.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
  Orders in Council of the 10th August, 1904 (a) revoking Orders in Council of 5th May, 1873, and 29th January, 1904, relating to the re-measurement of French ships in this country; (b) exempting from re-measurement in His Majesty's Dominion French ships whose certificates of registry are dated on or after 1st July, 1904.

  FOREIGN JURISDICTION ACT, 1890.
  Orders in Council of the 10th August 1904, entitled respectively "The Southern Rhodesia Order in Council, 1904." and "The Zanzibar Order in Council, 1904."
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL;
    PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL;
      PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
      Read 2a (according to Order). Committees negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Monday next.
  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL;
    REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Read 2a (according to Order). Committees negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Monday next.
  SHOP HOURS BILL;
    OUTDOOR RELIEF (FRIENDLY SOCIETIES) (No. 2) BILL.
    House in Committee (according to order). Bills reported without Amendment. Standing Committee negatived. Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bills read 3a, and passed.
  EDUCATION (LOCAL AUTHORITY DEFAULT) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order) and passed.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Commons Amendment to Lords Amendments and Commons reason for disagreeing to several of the Lords Amendments considered (according to order). Commons Amendment to Lords Amendments agreed to; and the Lords Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed not insisted on.

  INDIAN COUNCILS BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA The Earl of HARDWICKE): My Lords, I think it would be in accordance with the practice of this House and with your Lordships wishes if, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I said a few words in explanation of its scope and object. The noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Ripon), and the noble Marquess behind me (the Marquess of Lansdowne), are well aware that the members of the Viceroy's Council in India are very much overburdened with work. As long ago as Lord Dufferin's Adminstration a Minute was left on record by the Viceroy in which he said most emphatically that he considered it necessary that the Viceroy's Council should consist of six members instead of five. The present Government of India have come to the same conclusion, and they have proposed to the Secretary of State for India that the number of ordinary members of the Viceroy's Council should be increased from five to six.

  499
  I will deal, in the first place, with the present position of the Viceroy's Council as regards the division of the duties which they have to perform. At the present moment there is a Finance and Commerce Department, with a finance member at its head; there is a Home Department and a Revenue and Agricultural Department, and these two Departments are under one ordinary member of Council. There is also the Public Works Department, under another member of Council, and the legal member and the military member make up the five. It is proposed by the Government of India to abolish the Public Works Department. A few years ago Lord George Hamilton appointed a well-known railway expert, Mr. Robertson, to visit India and examine thoroughly the railway system throughout the country and he presented to the Government of India a very exhaustive Report on the subject, containing some very drastic recommendations as regards the future, and that Report has been laid before Parliament. The Government of India and Secretary of State have given very careful consideration to the recommendations therein contained, and, though they have not been able to see their way to adopt as a whole the proposals made by Mr. Robertson, they have decided upon a very large measure of reform of the system of railway administration.
  It is now proposed to create a Railway Board. This Board will have large powers conferred upon it, and will practically be responsible for the railway administration of India, large changes in policy or administration, of course, being submitted to the Viceroy or his Council, and, in some cases, ultimately to the Secretary of State. The Government of India, in view of the large powers which they propose to confer on this Board, have come to the conclusion that the office of the member who at present represents the Public Works Department and the Railway Administration of India on the Viceroy's Council is no longer necessary; that the Public Works Department can conveniently cease to exist, and that the Railway Board, having large powers conferred upon it, need not necessarily be directly represented on the Viceroy's Council. I think your Lordships will easily understand that the
  500
  chairman of the Railway Board, who, of course, could be the only man competent to be the representative of that Board on the Council, will have all his time fully occupied in the duties of railway administration, and that as, in the nature of things, he must be a railway expert, it is hardly desirable that he should be concerned with the general administration of matters which come before the Viceroy's Council. It has, therefore, been decided that the new Railway Board shall be independent of the Council, and that such matters connected with railway administration as have to be brought before the Council shall be brought by a member in charge of another department.
  The Public Works Departments, as I have said, will cease to exist. It is, therefore, proposed to redistribute the work of the members of the Viceroy's Council. It is proposed that the Finance and Commerce Department should in future be known as the Finance Department only, under a finance member. The Home Department and the Revenue and Agricultural Department, which, as I have said, are at present under one member, are to be separated. The Home Department is to be under one member of Council, and, though he will no longer have the work of the Revenue and Agricultural Department, I can assure your Lordships that the Government of India have stated in no unmeasured terms that the work he will have to do as sole representative of the Home Department will be all that one man can adequately carry out. Then the Revenue and Agricultural Department will also be under one member. Of course, the legal member and the military member will remain. That makes the five members as at present allowed by the Act of Parliament.
  Then it is proposed to create a new department altogether—a Department of Commerce and Industry, and to place that under a new member. I do not think I need dwell upon the good that may result from the creation of a department of this kind. It will have very large powers transferred to it, and the work of the new department will be extremely onerous and important. The Bill now before your Lordships

  501
  House is a very short one, and is necessary owing to the wording of the Act of 1874. The Act of 1861, known as the Indian Council's Act, constituted a council of five ordinary members. The Act of 1874 permitted the appointment of a sixth member, but stated that the sixth member was to be "for public works purposes." Having taken the best legal opinion, we were advised that the changes we wished to bring about in the Viceroy's Council could not legally be given effect to unless we had the sixth member as a member for public works purposes only. If your Lordships' will refer to this Bill, you will see that all it does is to provide that the words—
  "Who shall be called a member of council for public works purposes."
  which occur in the Act of 1874, shall be omitted. The Act of 1874 will then read as giving power to the Secretary of State in Council to appoint a sixth member. Of course, the creation of a large department of the kind I have referred to is a far-reaching and important proposal, on which, I am sure, the noble Marquess opposite will admit a great deal more might be said. But I will only say, in conclusion, that we have the most sanguine anticipations as to the benefit that will accrue to India from this appointment, and I hope it will stand out as not the least successful reform that has been instituted during the brilliant administration of Lord Curzon.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Hardwicke.)
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I think the Bill, the Second Reading of which the Under-Secretary of State has just moved, is one which your Lordships would do well to accept. It does away with what I think was always an unnecessary and undesirable arrangement, namely, making it necessary by Act of Parliament that the sixth member of the Viceroy's Council should always be attached to the public works department. I think that is a matter which ought to be left to the Viceroy in Council, who ought to be able to distribute among his colleagues the business of the different departments in whatever manner he may think best.
  502
  Therefore, I think the Bill will be an advantage and I give it my support. The noble Earl will hardly expect me to say anything upon the full description he has given of the other proposals which the Government of India intend to introduce. I have only heard them in detail for the first time this afternoon, and I am not in a position to express any opinion upon them. I should always be inclined to pay respect to anything which the Government of India might propose, but I do not wish at this moment to express any opinion of my own upon such a far-reaching proposal. I hope that at the beginning of next session we shall have Papers which will show us what is the nature of these proposals, so that we may be able to form upon them a judgment with full knowledge.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: I can give the noble Marquess an undertaking that Papers will be laid on the subject. In the ordinary course despatches will be published.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I think we ought to have more than that.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: I will mention the request to my right hon. friend the Secretary of State.
  On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived. Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

  WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I can assure the House that this is not in any sense a contentious measure, and I am glad to be able to say that it does not in any way deal with the metric system or any such abstruse subject. The Bill as it was originally introduced by Mr. Bousfield in another place contained clauses which the Board of Trade and the Government were not able to agree to. These clauses have been struck out in the Standing Committee

  503
  on Law to which the Bill was committed, and the Bill as now before your Lordships has been taken up by His Majesty's Government and made a Government measure in this House. There are two clauses to which I think I should draw your Lordships' attention. The clause of the utmost importance is Clause 5, which deals with the powers of the Board of Trade as to making general regulations. Up to now the local authorities have been the authorities for weights and measures, but if this Act passes into law those powers will be taken over by the Board of Trade, and by this means uniformity will be created over the whole country. I am led to believe that this will be very welcome to traders generally. Clause 9 is also a very important one. The Board of Trade may, by this clause, vary the fees for verification and stamping. These fees are in some cases too high, more especially in the case of the glass trade; and, if this Bill passes, the Board of Trade propose to reduce fees in certain cases. As I have assured your Lordships that this is not a contentious Bill, I hope you will read it a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Wolverton.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

  BISHOPRICS OF SOUTHWARK AND BIRMINGHAM BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, I do not propose to take up your Lordships' time with many observations in regard to this Bill. It is, as your Lordships know, an old friend, and therefore it will be quite unnecessary for me to state at length either the reasons for the introduction of the Bill or the precise character of the provisions which it contains. It is substantially the same Bill as that which passed through your Lordships' House
  504
  last year, though the drafting is somewhat different. It has been a good deal abbreviated, and in some respects it is more elastic. However, there is no intention, in carrying out the provisions of the Bill, which are subject, as your Lordships know, to certain schemes by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and by Order in Council, to produce substantially any different result than would have been produced by the more precise provisions of the Bill of last year. I feel all the more relieved from making any further observations because, as a matter of fact, this is rather the Bill of the most rev. Primate and the Bench of Bishops than of His Majesty's Government, not that His Majesty's Government do not cordially support it, but the Bill emanated from the Episcopal Bench. I would only say, in conclusion, that, connected as I have been for very many years with the diocese of Rochester, it does give me peculiar pleasure to be even to this extent instrumental in carrying out a great reform, a reform long needed, and one which it is a perfect scandal that Parliament has not found it possible to deal with before.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." (The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I wish to say a single word on this Bill. The natural expectation might have been, at such a moment as the Second Reading of this Bill, after the long endeavours to which the noble Marquess has alluded which have been made in previous years to bring it into effect, that the Bishop of Rochester would have been here to advocate it. His absence is one of the most eloquent arguments that could be urged in favour of the Bill, for he is absent because he has broken down from overstrain. He would not have been absent from your Lordships' House or from the country on any occasion of such ecclesiastical importance, whether concerning his own diocese or another, had such a Bill as this been law some time ago, for in that case the strain upon his health would have been less. The strain placed upon the holder of either of the two dioceses which are mainly affected by

  505
  this Bill, that of Worcester, containing the great town of Birmingham, and that of Rochester, containing the whole of the South of London, is more than one man can bear; and the object of the Bill is simply to effect, in each case, a subdivision greatly needed in view of the enormous increase of population. It is purely an administrative measure, containing no principle or change whatever beyond that of adapting modern resources to modern needs; it imposes no tax whatever on the public, but merely allows the voluntary contributions of those who care for the matter to be used in the way which the contributors think necessary. The noble Marquess the Lord Privy Seal has correctly stated that the Bill of to-day, though worded somewhat differently from the Bill which passed your Lordships' House on more than one previous occasion, is the same in its purport, and I am exceedingly glad to look forward now to effect being speedily given to a hope and an ambition which, as the noble Marquess has said, have been astir for a long time and the fulfilment of which is urgently required.
  On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

  CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
  Moved, "That Lord Windsor do take the Chair in the Committee of the Whole House this day in the absence of Lord Balfour."—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO CHILDREN (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the day read for the consideration of the Commons Amendments.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): In the absence of Lord Alverstone I would suggest the postponement of this Bill. I have not had an opportunity of considering the Amendments, and I cannot advise the House whether they should be accepted or not.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: Will that mean that the Bill will be lost?
  THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Oh, no.
  Consideration of Commons Amendments put off to Monday next, and the said Amendments to be printed[No. 206.]

  ANGLO-FRENCH CONVENTION BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, the object of this Bill is to signify the approval of Parliament to the Convention, set out in the schedule, which was signed in London on 8th April of this year, and to make it lawful for His Majesty the King to do everything which appears to His Majesty necessary or proper for carrying into effect that Convention. It is necessary that regard should be had to the authority of Parliament in this matter, in the first place because it seems to us that an international transaction of this magnitude ought not to be withdrawn from the cognisance of Parliament and also because it has been for some time past held that whenever any international arrangement involves a cession of British territory, as this does, the matter should come under the consideration of Parliament.
  I do not think it necessary on this occasion to pass in review the many matters that are dealt with in this Convention or in the Agreement of which the Convention forms a part. The question has been before the public for a long time, and your Lordships must be familiar with its details. At any rate, I think I may be permitted to say that I am personally relieved from the necessity of making a Second Reading speech upon the subject because my Second Reading speech was in fact delivered more than four months ago, and is embodied in the long despatch to our Ambassador in Paris, which was published with the Convention and laid before Parliament. There are two points only about which, perhaps, it is necessary that I should say a word.

  507
  The first of those points does nut strictly arise out of the Convention printed with this Bill, but it does arise out of the Agreement of which the Convention forms a part. Your Lordships will recollect that in that part of the Agreement which has reference to Egygt, we laid before you a draft Khedivial Decree embodying a large number of most important measures of reform which it was proposed should be undertaken by the Government of Egypt with the assent of Great Britain and France. It was, however, well understood that that Decree could not be issued unless the assent of the other Powers signatories to the Treaty of London was also obtained. I am able to say that since that time the assent of the remaining Powers has been given, and, I will venture to say, has been ungrudgingly given, to the arrangement. There is now, therefore, no obstacle whatever to the issue of the Decree, which will bring with it what I do not think I am wrong in describing as the emancipation of the Egyptian Administration from a system which is a survival of an order of things which no longer exists and which is full of the greatest inconvenience to those concerned.
  The other observation which I wish to make has reference to the Newfoundland Convention. Your Lordships, I daresay, have noticed that the French Government was not able to obtain for the Convention the ratification of the French Chambers before their separation a short time ago. The question which we had to consider was whether it was well for His Majesty's Government to ratify in the absence of ratification by the French Parliament. We had no hesitation in coming to the conclusion that it was not desirable that our ratification should not be withheld. We have no reason whatever for believing that when the French Chambers meet again early in the month of November their consent will not be given, and we thought it would have had a very unfortunate effect if we had, by our action in postponing legislation, shown that we entertained any suspicion of the attitude which the French Chambers were likely to adopt. We have had no reason to complain of the manner in which the whole of these proposals have been received by this country and by Parliament, and
  508
  we lay this Bill before your Lordships with confidence that it will receive your approval.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, your Lordships will not expect that I am about to offer any opposition to this Bill. On the contrary, I think His Majesty's Government were quite right in bringing in this Bill and passing it through Parliament in the circumstances which my noble friend has described. I am particularly glad to hear that the other Powers have agreed to the Khedivial Decree. This is a most important matter; and, as they have agreed, as my noble friend says, very readily, we may hope that that complicated and mischievous system which has previously existed will be now brought to an end. I think also that His Majesty's Government are right in not withholding their ratification. I have no doubt that the French Chambers, when they meet, will ratify the Convention so far as is necessary, and I think it would have been showing au unnecessary suspicion of what might be done if the British ratification had been withheld. It is quite unnecessary that my noble friend should enter into any further discussion in regard to the French Treaty. I only desire to allude to it for the purpose of associating myself entirely with the remarks which were made by my noble friend Lord Spencer at an early period of the session, when my noble friend went out of his way, and, I think, quite rightly, to express his approval of the general provisions of this scheme. I entirely concur in those observations. I think the scheme is one which will be very advantageous to this country, and which reflects honour on my noble friend the Foreign Secretary.
  On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

  IRISH LAND BILL.
  [SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, this is a Bill to explain and amend Section 48 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, with respect to the payment and application of the percentage provided by that section. It deals with a matter that has been mentioned very often in the Press and elsewhere in reference to the payment of the bonus, and its object is to clear up some points with reference to which there has been some doubt. It provides, in Clause 1, that any land, wholly or partly untenanted, sold to the Land Commission or the Congested Districts Board may be regarded as an estate for the purpose of the payment of any percentage under Section 48 of the Act of last year. It then makes perfectly clear that the percentage mentioned in Section 48, may, subject to the enactments contained in the proviso to Sub-section 1 and in Subsection 4 thereof, be paid to any vendor, other than the Congested Districts Board, whether such vendor is a person entitled to a beneficial interest in the land sold, or is a trustee or other person not so entitled, and save as provided, shall be held by him on the trusts, if any, affecting the purchase money. The third clause provides that where the vendor is a tenant for life or a person having the powers of a tenant for life under the Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1890, the percentage shall, subject to the enactments mentioned, be retained by him as his own proper moneys for his own use and benefit, free and discharged from all claims upon the lands sold, or the purchase money thereof, and from any trust affecting the same. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Ashbourne.)
  THE EARL OF WESTMEATH: My Lords, I need hardly say that at this stage of the session I do not rise for the purpose of opposing this Bill. I only rise to make clear the position which I and a great many other Irish landlords hold on this matter, Your Lordships will recollect that when the Land Bill was before the House last year Irish landlords displayed a unanimity and agreement which is not always found in an assemblage of Irishmen. In fact, only on one
  510
  point was it found that there was a general disagreement. That point was the one dealt with in this Bill. Opinion was at that time divided. There were those who held that the bonus ought to be given into the hands of the actual owner because he had incurred so many losses and so much trouble during the struggles of the land war; and there were others, a much smaller body, who considered that this war was not quite an honest proceeding, and that this being part of the purchase money it ought to follow the trust. This Bill makes it clear that the bonus is to go into the hands of the actual owner. I may say that I have not in the least changed the view which I formed last year, that it is not quite honest that this money should be diverted from the trust.
  When the Bill now before your Lordships was first introduced, it was found to contain several provisions which were distinctly objectionable. We brought those provisions to the notice of His Majesty's Government, and I think it only fair to say that they have endeavoured to meet us in every way, and have removed the greatest objections we had to the Bill, for which we are very much obliged to them. Having entered, on my own behalf and on behalf of other noble Lords from Ireland, a protest against this Bill, I wish to say that, as it is to become law, I hope it will help the Act of last year to work more smoothly. We shall certainly give it our assistance.
  I do not like to resume my seat without associating myself with the protest which was made yesterday by the noble Lords the Earl of Wemyss and the Duke of Northumberland against the treatment which we receive in this House. It has been said that there is no way of altering this, except by carrying on Bills from one session to another. It has been said that Bills have been originated in this House, but have got no further. That is due to the loquacity of Members in the other House. I certainly think we should not suffer on that account. I have been wondering what possible objection there can be to more Bills being initiated in this House. Is it to be said that there is not sufficient intelligence on the Front Bench to bring in a Bill without being guided by the discussion in the other House, or that

  511
  the majority of your Lordships have not sufficient intelligence to find out mistakes in a Bill, unless under similar guidance? I am not one of those who think that a Peer need necessarily be more deficient in intelligence than anybody else. I do not see why, for instance, the Licensing Bill could not have been initiated in this House. As long as noble Lords are satisfied to be treated like a flock of sheep nothing can be done. But I would suggest that if we are treated in this way next year, a sufficient number of patriotic Peers should form themselves into a sort of holy alliance and remain here till September, if necessary.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I do not propose to follow the noble Earl in the very lively description he has given of the manner in which your Lordships' House is treated. I can only say that we shall await with great interest in the coming session the action of those independent Peers, whose numbers always seem to me to be far too small, on this point of the treatment which this House receives at the hands of the other House. Nor do I propose to offer the slightest opposition to the Bill introduced by the noble and learned Lord opposite. I think it was perfectly clear that it was the intention of Parliament last session that this bonus should be paid to the life tenant. There were, and are, arguments against taking that course; but there is this consideration, which seems to me to make it evident that the Government, in settling this matter in the way they have done, have pursued a reasonable course. The allocation of this bonus is not really a matter for Irish landlords at all. It is a free gift from the taxpayers of the whole of the country in order to lubricate the working of this particular Act, and consequently, it is at the free disposal of Parliament. Even though some noble Lords may consider, and consider with great plausibility, that this particular money ought to be paid to the estate rather than to the life tenant, I think it is upon the will of the majority of Parliament that the matter must be allowed to rest. Of course, if any landowner in Ireland has any scruple about taking this money; it is perfectly open to
  512
  him, when he receives it, to apply it to the purposes of his estate trust.
  LORD EMLY: My Lords, I do not rise to oppose this Bill, but I think His Majesty's Government might darn not only the small tears but also the large rents in the garment. The Government are very sensitive as regards the landlords' position, but I see no great sensitiveness as regards the tenants' position. I do not object to the landlord's interest being safeguarded, but I think the tenant's interest might be safeguarded also. His Majesty's Government have absolutely and entirely ignored the interests of the evicted tenants and of the labourers. The noble Earl said there was a wonderful unanimity on the subject of the Land Act. Of course there is in your Lordships' House. For instance, when the Land Act was passing through Parliament, the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War was in war paint. He was the foremost fighting champion of the landlord interest. I am glad to see that he has breached over the tremendous differences that existed between himself and His Majesty's Government, and I congratulate His Majesty's Government on having kissed and made friends with the noble Earl.
  On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

  WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Earl of SELBORNE): My Lords, if this Bill settled permanently all the great questions raised by the introduction of wireless telegraphy, I think your Lordships would have very strong reasons to complain that it was brought to your attention at this late period of the session; but the Bill has not that character. It is a temporary Bill, and expires in two years. Therefore it does not attempt to settle once for all the great questions which are beginning

  513
  to be raised by the introduction of wireless telegraphy—questions which affect the defence of this country, the trade and internal communications of this country, and the progress of invention. In view of our experience in the matter of electricity, there was a great deal of disinclination to attempt to settle this question in a manner which might have the effect supposed to have been produced by legislation passed twenty years ago, in dwarfing and checking the progress of invention. I think that the plan adopted by the Government has obviated those difficulties and disarmed criticism, and, at the same time, has met what really were two very pressing needs. In the first place, it was a standing danger to the defence of this country by land and by sea, that there was no method of controlling wireless telegraphy at all. It was perfectly possible for anybody who chose to do so to set up a wireless telegraph installation, and to communicate with anybody at sea or across the Channel. There was absolutely no means of knowing what installations were set up, and it was a very real and pressing necessity of national defence that power should be taken to control all installations of this kind. Again, a peculiarity of wireless telegraphy is that, unless it is controlled, its whole utility may be negatived and nothing but chaos supervene. If the coast were studded with wireless telegraph stations under no control and in competition with one another, the only possible result would be that they would be all quite useless, and ships, whether of His Majesty's Navy or of the mercantile marine, would be unable to communicate with the shore or with each other. Therefore, for the proper civilised use of the invention control is essential. The third point is that at this transition period it was very important that vested rights should not be allowed to grow up, which the State hereafter might have to purchase at an immense cost. These three points are dealt with in the Bill, and yet no attempt is made to arrive at a permanent settlement. I ask your Lordships on this basis to accept the Bill and to read it a second time.
  Moved. "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl Selborne.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
  House adjourned at five minutes past One o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.