Sitting of 3 August 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
London and India Docks Company Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Edinburgh and District Water Order Confirmation Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended to be considered To-morrow.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.
Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.
Belfast and North-East Ireland Electricity and Power-Gas Bill [Lords]; Belfast Corporation Tramways Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PETITIONS.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions against; from Beaufort; Blaina; Brynmawr; Ebbw Vale; Man chester (two); Nantyglo; Nosterfield; Victoria (Mon.); Waun Llwyd; and West Tanfield; to lie upon the Table.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL.
  Petition from Kettering, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  VACCINATION ACTS.
  Petition from Derby, for repeal; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EGYPT (No. 2) 1904.
  Copy presented, of despatch from His Majesty's Agent and Consul General at Cairo, inclosing a Report by Sir William Garstin, G.C.M.G., Under-Secretary of State for Public Works in Egypt, upon the Basin of the Upper Nile [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL TAXATION LICENCES, 1903–4.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 26th July; Mr. Grant Lawson]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 300.]
  CHANNEL ISLANDS (CROWN RIGHTS).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 17th March; Sir Charles Dilke]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 301.]
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented, of Colonial Report, No. 422 (Gibraltar, Annual Report for 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  PAPERS LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Adjournment Motions under Standing Order No. 10. Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed. [No. 302.]
  Closure of Debate (Standing Order No. 26). Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed. [No. 303.]
  Divisions of the House. Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to he printed.
  Public Petitions. Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.
  Select Committees. Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.
  Sittings of the House. Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.
  Business of the House (Days occupied by Government and by private Members). Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed. [No. 304.]
  Private Bills and Private Business. Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August; Mr. Caldwell]; to be printed.

  ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES, 1903.
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum and Statistical Tables showing the production and consumption of Alcoholic Beverages (Wine, Beer, and Spirits) in the various Countries of Europe, in the United States, and in the principal British Colonies; and the Revenue derived therefrom in recent years (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 335, of Session 1901)."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour. )

  LONDON (EQUALISATION OF RATES) ACT, 1894 (ACCOUNTS UNDER SECTION 1 (7) OF THE ACT.
  Return ordered, "showing, according to the accounts for the twelve months preceding the 31st day of March, 1904, furnished to the Local Government Board under Section 1 (7) of The London (Equalisation of Rates) Act, 1894—

  (1) The amounts paid during the year out of the Equalisation Fund under the Act to the Corporation of the City of London and each of the Councils of the Metropolitan Boroughs to whom payments out of that fund were made;

  (2) The amount of the expenses incurred during the year by each of these authorities (a) under The Public Health (London) Act, 1891 including expenses of scavenging streets); (b) in respect of lighting; and (c) in respect of streets (other than the expenses of scavenging); and

  (3) The amount expended during the year by each such authority out of the sums received by them under the Act (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 338, of Session 1903)."—(Mr. Grant Lawson.)

  CIVIL SERVANTS (RETIREMENT AT THE AGE OF SIXTY-FIVE).
  Copy ordered, "of Treasury Minute, dated the 30th day of July, 1904, stating the circumstances under which certain Civil Servants have been retained in the Service after they have attained the age of Sixty-five; and of the Return therein referred to."— (Mr. Victor Cavendish. )

  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  Return ordered, "of all the Draft Provisional Orders under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, which in the Session of 1904 have been reported on by Commissioners; together with the names of the Commissioners; the first and also the last day of the sittings in each group; the number of days on which each body of Commissioners sat; the number of days on which each Commissioner has served; the number of days occupied by each

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  Draft Provisional Order before the Commissioners; the Draft Provisional Orders, the Preambles of which were reported to have been proved; and the Draft Provisional Orders, the Preambles of which were reported to have been not proved."— (The Lord Advocate.)

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Penalties for Illegal Trawling.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will consider the expediency of introducing legislation next session such as will render the penalties for illegal trawling of a more deterrent nature than at present.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) I can only refer the hon. Member to the Answer to a similar Question on 7th March last, †to which I have nothing to add.

  H.M.S. "Jackal" and Protection of Scotch Fisheries.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland, seeing that the steam trawler "Goldseeker" has been placed at the disposal of the Fishery Board for Scotland to assist in the International North Sea Investigations, will he explain why H.M.S. "Jackal" was detailed by the Board for that duty, especially having regard to the fact that the "Jackal" was lent to the Board for the purpose of protecting the interests of line fishermen from the depredations of illegal trawling off the coasts of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) The "Jackal" has been specially engaged on certain occasions in the International North Sea Investigations with the consent of the Admiralty at the request of the Fishery Board. This request has been made because the particular work in question could hardly have been performed without the assistance of a vessel possessing the power and equipment of the "Jackal."

  Durness Medical Case.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: To ask the Secretary for
  †See (4) Debates, cxxxi., 309.
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  Scotland if his attention has been called to the Durness Medical case; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) I can only refer the hon. Member to my Answer to his Question of Monday last.‡

  Closing of Dilapidated China and Earthenware Factories.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the statement at p. 219 of the Factories Annual Report, to the effect that many china and earthenware factories are dilapidated and in great need of hygienic improvement; and whether, seeing that recommendations for the closing of the worst of such factories have been made since 1893 by Committees and by Government experts appointed to advise the Government upon the dangerous processes, and in view of the power under Section 18 of The Factory and Workshops Act, 1901, to carry out such recommendations, he will state whether any such steps have been taken in the Potteries; and, if not, whether he will take such action.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I am aware of the statement in the Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories and of the recommendations to which the right hon. Baronet refers. The Inspector of Factories, however, has no power to require the alteration or demolition of dilapidated premises. Section 18 of the Factory Act only gives power to the inspector to apply to a Court to make an order, and before an order can be made he is required to prove to the satisfaction of the Court that the condition of the premises is such as to be dangerous to health or to life or limb. So far no case has appeared strong enough to make an application under that section advisable. The general condition of the factories, though bearing little on the special dangers of the pottery industry is, however, one to which the inspectors give attention, and it is reported to me that during the past few years a considerable amount of renovation
  † See page 258.

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  has been done and the general condition substantially improved. Some also of the older factories have been closed. The matter shall not be lost sight.

  Revenue Derived from Special Delivery of Letters on Public Holidays.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Postmaster-General, in view of the fact that on public holidays in Scotland, and on bank holidays in England and Ireland, letters arriving after the morning delivery for residents who do not rent private boxes can only be obtained on payment of a charge of 3d., will he state the amount derived annually from this source in England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) There are no statistics available to enable me to reply to the Question of the hon. Member, and the compilation of such statistics would involve a large amount of labour.

  Alleged Carelessness in Affixing Post-marks.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the carelessness in the post offices of the United Kingdom in affixing post-marks which are often illegible on letters; and, if so, what action he is taking to remedy the alleged grievance of the public in this respect.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) Attention has frequently been called to the necessity of care in applying post-marks to letters, and I am fully alive to the importance of the subject. The cover which the hon. Member was so good as to send me appears to have enclosed a bulky letter, and the indistinctness of the post-marks thereon was doubtless due to this fact. The American post-mark on the back is also indistinct from the same cause. However, I am again calling attention to the point.

  Memorial of London Sorter-Tracers.
  SIR HENRY KIMBER: To ask the Postmaster-General whether the Report of the Committee on Post Office Wages having now been presented, he can now accede to the memorial of the London sorter-tracers, dated 26th
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  March last, for permission to personally lay before him their claims as regards pay and prospects of promotion.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) As I informed the hon. Member, in answer to a previous Question on the 6th June last,† until the Report of the Committee on Post Office Wages has been fully considered, I am not prepared to give a definite answer to the request of the memorialists.

  Physical Degeneration—Inquiry into Purity of Manufactured or Prepared Food.
  MR. ROUND: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the alleged physical degeneration of the people, he will take steps to give effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Arsenical Poisoning by appointing a special expert officer to inquire into and advise upon all questions affecting the purity of manufactured or prepared food whether of home or foreign origin.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I hays not at present come to a decision on the subject. The recommendations of the Royal Commission are now receiving my attention, and in connection with them I shall consider the proposal to appoint a special expert officer of the kind suggested.

  Foodstuffs as Contraband of War—Correspondence with late Boer Government.
  MR. MARKHAM: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will he lay upon the Table the correspondence between the British Authorities in South Africa and the late Boer Government in which the British Authorities in South Africa declared foodstuffs to be a contraband of war.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I am not aware of any such correspondence.

  Appointments of British Officers to the Egyptian Army.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the strength of the Egyptian
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxv., 781.

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  Army has recently been augmented by the appointment of British commissioned officers; and will he state the number of these appointments and why they have been made, having regard to the fact that after the pacification of the Soudan a reduction was made in the number of both native officers and rank and file.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) We have no information of an increase in the strength of the Egyptian Army.

  Life-saving Appliances on Foreign Ships plying between British and Continental Ports.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many passenger steamers are plying from British ports to Hamburg, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Ostend, Calais, Dieppe, Cherbourg, Havre, and Bordeaux under a foreign flag and manned by foreign sailors; what steps are taken to ensure their compliance with the Merchant Shipping (Life-Saving Appliances) Act of 1888 as to the provision of easily accessible life-belts and lifesaving gear for every passenger they are licensed to carry; and by whom and how often are such life-saving appliances inspected and tested.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) Foreign steamers taking passengers from ports in the United Kingdom to the ports mentioned in the Question are not required by the existing law to be provided with life-saving appliances under the Merchant Shipping Act. I cannot, without considerable inquiry, state the number of such steamers.

  Education Code-Extraneous Duties Clause.
  DR. MACNAMARA: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether after 1st August, 1904, Article 15 (the Extraneous Duties Clause) of the Education Code for 1904, will be applied to all agreements, whether made before or after that date, in continuance of the practice of the Board of Education with respect to the corresponding clause in the Code of 1903.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) Article 71* of the Code for 1903 applied and still applies (unless the provisions of
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  Article 15 of the Code for 1904 are adopted in its place) to all agreements with teachers in voluntary schools made before 31st July, 1904. Article 15 of the Code for 1904 applies to all appointments of teachers in council as well as voluntary schools made on or after 1st August, 1904, whether such appointments are made by agreement or minute. The Board are advised that a revision of existing agreements would have needed a fresh stamping of each agreement, and this would have caused a considerable expense to fall either upon teachers or managers or local authorities. The Board, therefore, refrained from making the new provisions obligatory, though it is possible for the alteration to be made in any agreement or minute.

  Proposed South African War Memorial.
  SIR E. DURNING-LAWRENCE: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if any decision has been arrived at in connection with a proposal to erect an archway or memorial at the eastern end of the Mall Extension, to commemorate those who died during the South African War; and whether His Majesty's Government contemplates the erection of any such memorial in London.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) The Government have given very careful consideration to this proposal, but they regret that they are unable to appropriate the archway which is to be erected at the east end of the Mall Extension for this purpose. They do not think that it would prove a suitable building for a memorial of this kind; nor call they undertake to find any other site. In view of the fact that memorials to those who fell in the war have been and are being erected in moat parts of the United Kingdom and the Empire, the Government are not prepared to say that the proposal for a national memorial in London seems to be generally regarded as desirable.

  Pay of Riding Masters and Quartermasters of the British Army serving in India.
  SIR SEYMOUR KING: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether representations have been made to the

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  Indian Government and the Commander-in-Chief in India to the effect that riding-masters and quartermasters of the British services doing duty in India receive less pay and allowances than they would be entitled to receive if serving at home, and moreover that, while all British service officers doing duty in India receive an increase of pay while so employed, no such increase is given to riding-masters and quartermasters; and whether he will examine into and redress any difference which may exist in the pay of those ranks.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) No official recommendation has been made to me on the subject of the Indian pay and allowances of riding-masters and quartermasters of the British service doing duty in India, but I will see that the attention of the Government of India is drawn to the matter.

  Extension of a Six-day Licence.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that two justices gave permission for publicans holding a six-day licence to keep open their premises on Sunday, 24th July last, and that a special Court was held, and the order rescinded; and, if so, will he say what action, if any, has been taken against those who sold drink on the day prohibited.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Proceedings will be instituted against the publicans in question.

  Police and Party Emblems in Armagh.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the 23rd July last a number of publicans in Armagh hung out flags from their premises; and whether, in view of the fact that the police warned them of the illegality, he will state what action, if any, he intends taking in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The warning was given in error, the police authorities having misunderstood the effect of the instructions issued by Government. The flags displayed were not of a Party character, and in the
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  circumstances it is not proposed to take further action.

  Townlands betwee Moy and Trew Station.
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the names of the ten townlands between Moy and the station at Trew and Moy, county Tyrone; the area which these ten townlands cover; and through how many of the ten townlands the main road actually passes.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The townlands are Trew, Bogbane, Bovain, Gortrea, Turleenan, Clonmore, Drumgrannon, Moyroe, Drumard, and Dromeenagh. They cover an area of 1,883 acres. Two other townlands, Listamlet and Lisroan, with an area of 300 acres, adjoin the main road, which touches all the townlands named.

  Essex Farmers and Colchester Camp Straw Contracts.
  SIR CARNE RASCH: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of allowing Essex farmers to contract for the supply of straw for Colchester Camp, seeing that Belgian peat moss litter, which has only been in use for the last six months, is dearer than straw at present prices.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold Forster.) The hon. and gallant Baronet has been somewhat misinformed. A contract for straw for the troops at Colchester already exists, and is held by an Essex man. Experiments are, however, being made at this and other stations in the use of peat moss litter in lieu of straw as bedding for horses, at a less cost to the public.

  The New Army Scheme.
  SIR CARNE RASCH: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the propriety of excepting such battalions from absorption as have been up to strength since the date of their formation, and are in a high state of efficiency, such as the Royal Fusiliers; whether the reduction will proceed simultaneously in each regiment; and whether officers of the reduced battalions will

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  have the option of transfer to other corps.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The whole question as to the manner in which the reductions mentioned will be carried out is now receiving careful consideration; and while any suggestions of my hon. and gallant friend will naturally receive attention, it is not possible for me at the present moment to reply definitely to this or similar Questions.

  Chartered Company and the Future Government of Rhodesia.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there are any proposals submitted, either by the Chartered Company of South Africa or by British citizens residing in Rhodesia, to him in regard to the future Government of Rhodesia; whether, if so, these proposals are now under discussion; whether one scheme is now under his consideration, to alter or to amend the Government of Rhodesia in connection with the Chartered Company; whether he can state what are the guarantees of interest given by the Chartered Company in connection with railroads and other such undertakings, and what is the amount of the debenture debt of the company; and whether he can give this House an assurance that no changes involving expenditure of moneys, or alteration of the terms of the Charter of the company will be made before they have been submitted to the approval of this House.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The Answer to the first three Questions is in the negative. As to the fourth Question, I am not in a position to state what are the guarantees of interest by the British South Africa Company subsisting at the present moment nor the amount of the debenture debt of the Company outstanding, but if the hon. Member wishes I will communicate with the Company on the subject. With regard to the last Question, all I can say is that any arrangement involving an obligation on the Exchequer would, of course, be subject to the approval of Parliament, which would have all possible opportunities of discussing it.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Egyptian Finance—The Caisse de la Dette.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the functions of the Caisse de la Dette will come to an end in 1912.
  THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): The Caisse de la, Dette will continue to exist until the Guaranteed, Privileged, and Unified Debts are entirely extinguished or paid off. By the Khedivial Decree this cannot happen before 15th July, 1912.

  Protection of Mecca Pilgrims.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to state I the arrangements made by the Egyptian Government for the safety and protection of pilgrims during the next year's pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina.
  EARL PERCY: The moment has not yet come to make the arrangements for the next pilgrimage. When it does, the Egyptian Government will doubtless take the necessary measures for the protection of the Egyptian pilgrimage.

  The Transvaal—Gold Goods by Parcel Post.
  MR. WILLIAM McKILLOP: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the postal authorities refuse to accept gold goods, manufactured or unmanufactured, for conveyance to the Transvaal by parcels post, although such goods may be sent by parcels post to Natal, Cape Colony, and Orange River Colony, and that this regulation, made by the late Boer Government, was allowed to fall into disuse until recently, he will explain why it has been re-enforced; and whether, seeing that the only other means of sending such goods into the Transvaal is by steamer, the cost of which is almost prohibitive in the case of small parcels, and that all goods sent to South Africa by parcels post are sent at the consignor's or consignee's risk, the Post Office refusing to accept any liability whatever, he will take steps, in view of

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  the inconvenience which these regulations cause both to importers and exporters, to have them altered without delay.
  THE POSTMASTER - GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): The prohibition to which the hon. Member refers is enforced at the request of the Transvaal Post Office. That Post Office is within its rights in laying down such a prohibition, and I have no ground for interfering in the matter, and no alternative but to accede to its request.

  Tain (Ross-shire) Postal Arrangements.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General, in view of the fact that, on the 7th July last, the delivery of letters from the post office at Tain, Ross-shire, after the morning delivery, was suspended on the ground that it was a public holiday, and that a resident who called at the post office for the purpose of obtaining his letters was told that no search could be made for them unless he paid a fee of threepence, will he consider the expediency of making such arrangements as will enable the public, when deliveries have been thus suspended from any post office in the United Kingdom, to obtain their letters on week days free of all charge by calling at the post office during the hours it is open for public business.
  LORD STANLEY: I doubt if there is any real need for the concession suggested by the hon. Member, but I will consider the question.

  Wrongful Conviction—Compensation for Adolf Beck.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any and, if so, what, compensation will be made to Adolf Beck, who in 1895 was tried, convicted, and sentenced to seven years penal servitude at the Old Bailey for a crime of which his innocence has now been conclusively established, and who recently has been tried and convicted for a crime of which his innocence has been established in the interval between conviction and sentence, both convictions having been
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  obtained on evidence of Beck's identity, which was mistaken; and what other steps will be taken to make some reparation to this man in addition to the conferring on him of a pardon for crimes he never committed.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERSDOUGLAS,): I am in communication with the Treasury with regard to the grant of a sum of money—the amount of which I cannot yet state—to Mr. Adolf Beck as compensation, if it can be so called, for his two mistaken convictions. He has already received from the King His Majesty's free pardon, the effect of which is much greater than the word "pardon" in its ordinary sense would imply. In law a free pardon entirely wipes out the conviction and "obliterates every stain" which the law attaches to the alleged offence.

  Physical Deterioration—Committee's Suggestions on Ventilation and Child Rearing.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will consider the expediency of issuing to parochial medical officers, sanitary inspectors, and inspectors of poor, leaflets containing the opinions of the Committee on Physical Deterioration relative to ventilation and the bringing up of young children, with a view to the dissemination of information on these subjects amongst the families of the working classes.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,): As I intimated in reply to a Question on Monday,† I have not vet been able to consider the Report of the Committee referred to, which has only just been issued. Hence I am not at present in a position to state what action I shall take in connection with the matter. I will, however, take note of the suggestion of the hon. Member.

  Trawling in Belfast Lough.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact
  † See page 270.

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  that the regulations laid down by the Irish Fisheries Board have been repeatedly broken by trawlers on the northern and southern shores of Belfast Lough, to the damage of the local fishery; and will he state whether any, and, if so, how many, prosecutions have taken place in consequence, and with what results.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): No complaint has reached the Department. The matter, however, is being inquired into.

  Motor-Car Scheme for Derry.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Cowan, the chief engineering inspector to the Local Government Board of Ireland, has reported that it would cost over £12,000 sterling to prepare between ninety and twenty miles of the existing public roads in the Derry No. 1 District for the running of motor vehicles, under the scheme of Lord Iveagh and the Right Hon. W. J. Pirrie, between Derry, Clandy, Park, and Fermoy; and that, in consequence of the cost, the scheme has been rejected by the Derry County Council; if so, will he state how many motors have been placed on the Irish roads up to the present under the Iveagh-Pirrie scheme, and at what cost to the several districts; and whether, in view of the cost which the scheme is likely to involve to the local ratepayers, he will refuse to accord it any further the support and co-operation of the Irish Administration.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Cowan's Report was to the effect stated. The county surveyor also estimated the cost at over £12,000, and the county council declined to adopt his report on the ground that it "would effectually block any further consideration" of the motor-car scheme in the district. I may remind the hon. Member that, acting on a suggestion which had been made by the Galway County Council, the Government put on the Paper an Amendment to the Labourers Bill which would have enabled the whole or any part of the unexpended balance of a county's share in the Exchequer's contribution for labourers' cottages to be
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  expended for particular purposes, such as the cost of schemes referred to in the Question. I understand that the county Antrim service will be opened at an early date.
  MR. CULLINAN: May I ask whether, if the right hon. Gentleman expects the county councils to spend money for this purpose, he will lay before the ratepayers the probable benefits that will accrue from such expenditure?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I understand the hon. Member thinks I ought to make some such statement.
  MR. CULLINAN: I think so.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I will consider what can be done.

  Portadown Disturbances.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on Sunday, 24th July, stones and other missiles were thrown at the 8.40 p.m. train from Armagh when approaching Portadown, and that on the same evening broken glass was strewn over the road between Armagh and Portadown for the purpose of disabling cyclists returning from the ceremonies at Armagh Cathedral; and, if so, will he say whether any action has been taken to prosecute the offenders, and how many arrests have been made.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No stones or other missiles were thrown at this train. A small quantity of broken glass was found on the road between Armagh and Portadown. It was removed by the police, who, however, have no reason to believe that it was placed on the road to injure cyclists attending the ceremonies at Armagh Cathedral. The road is much frequented by cyclists.

  East Limerick Rent Appeals.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg Ito ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord, Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the number of appeals in East Limerick, in the fixing of fair rents, from the decisions of the Sub-Land Commissioners to the Head Commissioners; and

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  whether, in view of the inconvenience to intending purchasing tenants, and the uncertainty between land agents and tenants when rents are being collected, can he say where and at what probable date the Head Commissioners will sit to give decisions on those appeals.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There are 450 appeals pending from this district. It is probable that a sitting of the Appeal Court will be held at Limerick towards the end of the present year.

  Reinstatement of Evicted Tenants in Limerick.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, can he say whether the Estates Commissioners have received any communications with regard to reinstatement to the farms from which they have been evicted, in the following cases, viz.; the representative of the late Timothy Hartigan, of Beltyville, Manister Croom, county Limerick, and Denis M'Carthy, of Killanahan, Manister Croom, county Limerick, both under the same landlord, the Rev. J. T. Lee, Papworth Everard Rectory, St. Ives, Cambridge; can he say who manages the evicted farms for the landlord; and can he hold forth to Messrs. Hartigan and M'Carthy any hope of restoration to their farms in the near future.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Applications have been received from both evicted tenants. The holdings are managed for the landlord by the agent of the property. The Commissioners hope to take the applications into consideration at an early date.

  King Harman Estate, County Longford.
  MR. BLAKE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the decision of the Estates Commissioners upon the application of Patrick Fox, of Ardnacraney, Moate, county Westmeath, to be restored to his farm on the King Harman Estate, in the townland of Cartron, barony of Shule, from which he was evicted in June, 1888, and which is now in the landlord's possession; whether he is aware that the King Harman (Newcastle) Estate, county Longford, part of which this farm is, is
  724
  now being sold; and will he direct the Estates Commissioners to take Fox's application into their favourable consideration before the sale of this estate is sanctioned.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No decision has yet been arrived at. The application is at present under consideration by the Commissioners.

  Case of Constable Anderson, Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. MACVEAGH: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Mayo, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the most material portions of the evidence given at the Court of inquiry on the charges against Constable Anderson in December, 1903, were suppressed in all the newspapers which reported the trial; and whether, seeing that it has been stated on behalf of the Government that this evidence is at the disposal of the public, he will agree to furnish a certified copy of the evidence.
  The following Questions on the same subject also appeared on the Paper—
  MR. DILLON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will lay upon the Table all official Papers and Correspondence connected with the case of Constable Anderson of the Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will lay upon the Table of the House all official Papers and Correspondence connected with the case of Constable Anderson of the Royal Irish Constabulary, formerly stationed at Kiltimagh, county Mayo.
  MR. WYNDHAM: My noble friend the Lord Chancellor of Ireland stated on the 12th July that a report of the evidence taken at the Court of inquiry appeared in the public Press. I stated on the following day that I was not prepared to lay Papers on the Table.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the most material

  725
  parts of the evidence were suppressed in the newspaper reports, so that the public had no opportunity of forming a proper judgment?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I do not think that this House can rehearse the proceedings of the Courts of inquiry with any advantage.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Has not the right hon. Gentleman rehearsed them without taking evidence?
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: And I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that the matter will be further rehearsed this afternoon.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the newspaper reports themselves indicate that all the evidence is not given?
  MR. WYNDHAM: That may be so, but it does not alter my opinion.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLINrose.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The Question has been fully answered.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: But, Sir, it is absolutely essential we should have this evidence before us in order that we may properly discuss this matter.
  *MR. SPEAKER: It has been asked for, and an Answer has been given.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two Lords-Lieutenant of Ireland have asked for exactly the same thing—Earls Cadogan and Spencer.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am not aware of that. I do not think they asked for the proceedings of the Court of Inquiry.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: Is it not the fact that Lord Spencer stated in another place that there was a precedent for the production of documents of this kind?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  Rate of Interest on Loans for Labourers' Cottages in Ireland.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieu-
  726
  I tenant of Ireland whether he can state what rates of interest were charged on loans for labourers' cottages in Ireland prior to 3rd March, and what rates are now charged; and at whose instance and on what grounds the increased rate was imposed; whether he is aware that the effect has been the abandonment of schemes for the erection of cottages by numerous district councils; and whether, in view of the failure of the Government to pass comprehensive legislation on the subject this session, he will make representations to the Treasury as to the necessity for reducing the rates of interest now charged.
  MR. WYNDHAM: An oral reply to this Question cannot conveniently be given, since it involves the reading out of a large number of figures. With the hon. Member's permission I will circulate the Reply with to-night's Votes.

  Irish Local Government Board Surcharges.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board can state the total amount surcharged by their auditors on members of county councils, urban councils, rural district councils, and Poor Law boards from the 31st March, 1899, to 31st March, 1904; how much of this total was remitted by the Local Government Board on appeal to them; and how much was recovered from the parties surcharged.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This information would have to be obtained from the officials of the local bodies named. Its preparation would entail a considerable expenditure of labour, and I do not think, as at present advised, that the results would be commensurate with the labour

  Royal Irish Constabulary Recruits.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the total number of recruits received into the Royal Irish Constabulary during the period from 31st March, 1903, to 31st March, 1904.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Twenty-five.

  Macroom Union Clerkship.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds the Local Government Board refused to sanction the election of Mr. Lynch as clerk of Macroom Union; whether their attention has been drawn to the recent decision of the Master of the Rolls in this matter; and what steps the Local Government Board now propose to take with regard to the clerkship of Macroom Union.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The matter being sub judice, I am debarred from discussing the action of the Local Government Board in respect to the appointment.

  Labourers' Cottages in Ireland—Unqualified Tenants.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state in how many cases were complaints made to the Local Government Board during the five years ended 31st March last, as to labourers' cottagers being occupied by persons other than bona fide agricultural labourers; in how many cases did the Local Government Board take steps to have the parties so complained of removed from the cottages, and with what result.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Many complaints of this character have been made to the Board, but their number has not been recorded. All such complaints have been communicated to the district councils concerned. The councils have absolute discretion in the matter of letting cottages, and the Board has no power to take action in the direction suggested.

  Constable Anderson.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will lay upon the Table of the House all official Papers and Correspondence connected with the case of Constable Anderson, a confessed accomplice in perjury, and subornation of perjury, and the perpetration of outrage of Sergeant Sheridan, now discharging duty in the depot of the Royal Irish Constabulary, Phœnix Park.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No, Sir. I may perhaps add that this is not the Constable Anderson whose case has recently been discussed in the Press.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: No, I know it; and so does the right hon. Gentleman.

  Queen's College, Cork—Art Examinations.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the recent examination of candidates for First Arts and Second Arts in the Royal University of Ireland, only one first class distinction was obtained by a student from the Queen's College, Cork, which is endowed, and no fewer than forty five such distinctions were obtained by the students of the University College, which has no endowment; and whether, seeing that the endowments in Art chairs and prizes of the Queen's College, Cork, produce such small results, he will consider the desirability of diverting them to other educational institutions.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The reply to the first query is in the affirmative. The number obtained by students of University College was twenty-five not forty-five. The Question does not, however, take account of distinctions that may have been obtained by students in other Faculties besides Arts. I am inquiring as to this.

  South Dublin County Police.
  MR. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a correspondence took place some time since between certain persons in South Dublin County and the Constabulary authorities in Dublin Castle with reference to the manning of certain police stations in that district, and that certain appointments were made in consequence; and, if so, whether the correspondence, if it exists, will be laid upon the Table of the House or otherwise published.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Inspector-General is unable to identify the matter referred to in the Question. If the hon. Member will communicate to me privately a clue to the correspondence I shall be happy to make further inquiry.

  Irish Assistant School Teachers.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state when steps will be taken to secure that an assistant teacher can be employed in schools in which the average attendance is fifty children.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have nothing at present to add to my reply to the Question of yesterday by the hon. Member for North Cork.†

  Lord Dunraven's Limerick Estate.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state whether Lord Dunraven has sold, or has arranged to sell, his estate in the county of Limerick to the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, at what price.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No application for the sale of this estate has yet been received.

  Lord Southwell's Limerick Estate.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state whether Lord Southwell's Estate, in the county of Limerick, has been sold to the tenants; if so, at what price; and whether Julius Baker, of Ballingrane, in the said county, representative of Anne Baker, deceased, an evicted tenant on the estate, will be reinstated; and, further, will he state what provision is being made for the other evicted tenants on the property.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No application has been received for the sale of this estate.

  Queen's College, Cork—Art Course Examination Failures.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state how many students of the Queen's College, Cork, holders of prizes, exhibitions, and scholarships in that institution have failed during the last five years to pass the ordinary examinations in the Arts Course of the Royal University of Ireland.
  † See Page.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Students of the Queen's Colleges holding scholarships, exhibitions, or prizes in the Faculty of Arts do not necessarily present themselves for the Arts Examination of the Royal University, and some, in fact, do not. The Royal University furnishes an official list of those who pass and of those who obtain honours, but not of those who have failed. I am not sure whether it will be practicable to obtain the information desired in this Question. I will, however, inquire.

  Queen's College, Cork—Students and Royal University Art Examinations.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many students of the Queen's College, Cork, submitted themselves at the recent examinations for First and Second Arts in the Royal University; of these, how many are holders of prizes, exhibitions, or scholarships in the Queen's College; how many passed the examination; and how many obtained first class honours, second class honours, first class exhibitions, and second class exhibitions.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Fourteen entered for the First Arts examination; of these ten passed, two of them obtaining second honours, and one of the latter was awarded a second class exhibition. Twelve entered for the Second Arts Examination; nine passed, including one who obtained first class honours and a second class exhibition. The official lists have not yet been communicated to the I college authorities by the Royal University and the information desired in the second query cannot at present be given.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid that those who failed were the holders of prizes and exhibitions for the very subjects in which they failed.
  Ma. WYNDHAM: I have no knowledge as to that.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: But I have.

  Portavogie Harbour Works.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the

  731
  Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his I attention has been called to a resolution of the Down County Council, unanimously adopted by the council, setting forth that the new harbour works at Portavogie are practically useless for the fishermen for whom they were intended; and whether he is aware that during the construction of the harbour the attention of the Commissioners of Works was repeatedly called to the defects in their plans; and what steps the Government now intend to take to make good these defects before asking the county council to take over the care of the harbour.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. VICTOR CAVENDISH,): The harbour works at Portavogie were carried out in accordance with plans deposited for local inspection before the works were started. During the progress of the work additional rock excavation was proposed on behalf of local boatowners, but this would have increased the cost beyond the authorised limit. The harbour gives 250 feet of berthage, and a length of 440 feet of shelter. The works were transferred to the county council in January last.

  Belfast Post Office.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the staff in the stamp-selling department of the Belfast General Post Office is limited to two clerks, whereas four clerks would be necessary to deal satisfactorily with the volume of business; that, in consequence of the want of a late-fee box in the interior of the building, the public are obliged to go to Garfield Street in order to post late-fee letters; that the condition of the post boxes in Garfield Street is defective in regard to construction, position, lighting, and time tables; and, if so, whether he will order an inquiry into these matters with a view to having any further cause of complaint in regard to them removed without delay.
  LORD STANLEY: The staff employed in selling stamps at the counter of the Belfast Post Office consists of two officers, and that number is found to be sufficient for the work. It is not
  732
  usual to provide late—fee boxes at public counters, and I am not aware that inconvenience is caused by the present arrangement. I am assured that the construction, position, and lighting of the posting boxes in Garfield Street are satisfactory, but I will see whether an improvement can be made as regards the exhibition of the posting notices.
  MR. SLOAN: Arising out of the reply, may I ask has the noble Lord taken into consideration the fact that the late-fee box is in a corner and strangers doing business in the post office do not see it?
  Loan STANLEY: I will look into the matter; but I am informed that there is no inconvenience.
  MR. SLOAN: Well, I may tell the noble Lord that I myself when in the post office have been asked by persons where the late-fee box is.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: Is it not a fact that it requires four clerks to do similar work in the Dublin office?
  LORD STANLEY: I am told not for the same kind of work done.

  Dublin Sorting Office—The Corcoran Case.
  MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether the defalcation in the Corcoran case was found to have stood roughly at £600 at the time the present Controller of the Sorting Office, Dublin, took over charge from his predecessor, and what was the precise amount of the defalcation at that time; whether any officers now occupying positions of authority or control had at any time borrowed money from Mr. Corcoran; and, if so, who were those officers; whether the present Controller before he attained that position had, in his capacity of chief clerk and examining officer, passed daily for some years falsified entries of cash and stamps in the Daily Cash Account; how far back was the system of false entries found to extend, and what was the amount of the earliest false entry; and what were the dates and amounts of

  733
  the various I.O.U.'s that formed part of the Controller's cash balance.
  LORD STANLEY: The Corcoran case was fully investigated by my predecessor in office at the time, and severe disciplinary measures were taken. In my opinion, no good purpose would be served by again going into such matters as those referred to in the hon. Member's Question after a lapse of four years.

  Belfast Post Office—Payment of Telegraph Messengers.
  Mr. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will explain why the day telegraph messengers at Belfast Post Office are only paid at the rate of 6d. a dozen for delivery of telegrams, instead of 7d. a dozen as formerly; and whether, seeing that messengers having more than one telegram for the same person or firm only receive one token, value ½d., instead of a token for each message, he will state what is the rule in other cities and who is responsible for the above arrangement; and will he consider the advisability of granting the messengers payment for each individual message delivered to one firm or person.
  LORD STANLEY: The day telegraph messengers at Belfast are paid for delivery of telegrams at the rate of 6½d. a dozen, and not 6d. as the hon. Member appears to think. That rate has been in operation since August, 1899, having then been reduced from 7d., as the higher rate yielded pay beyond what was justified. The rule in force at Belfast that messengers having more than one telegram for delivery at the same address are only paid as for one telegram is in operation generally throughout the service, and I see no reason for making any alteration in this respect.
  MR. SLOAN: Does not the noble Lord see any reason for increasing the payment to 7d. per dozen, the rate at which it originally stood?
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir.

  The Scottish Free Church Judgment.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he has had time to
  734
  consider the judgment of the House of Lords in the case of the General Assembly of the Free Church of Scotland versus Lord Overtoun and whether, having regard to the consequences of the judgment, he will be able soon to make a statement respecting any legislative action that may seem to the Government to be desirable.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD of THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): The Government have not considered this question, and I do not propose to make any statement on the subject at present.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I will repeat the Question next week.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I doubt whether next week I can give any Answer but the one I have just given.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
MR. BRYCE: Will the right hon. Gentleman, for the convenience of the House, say what items of Supply it is proposed to take to-morrow, and in what order?
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the Supply to be taken to-morrow would be the Home Office Vote and the Navy Vote.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Is not the arrangement that the Navy Vote should be taken at nine o'clock?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, unless the Home Office Vote is completed before seven-thirty. It will be taken immediately after that.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I should like to point out to the right hon. Gentleman we have had no opportunity of discussing the progress of naval works this year.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked what business the Government proposed to take to-night after Supply.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Report of the two Resolutions which we were fortunate enough to get last night.
MR. McKENNA: Do you propose to take anything after that?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Why not?
MR. LOUGHhoped the right hon. Gentleman would, in accordance with his promise, give some opportunity for discussing the Cunard Agreement before twelve o'clock at night.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am amazed at the hon. Gentleman's Question. We discussed that very question last night, and I should have been glad to meet the right hon. Baronet the Member for Berwick, who raised it over and over again, if it were possible to give an opportunity to debate the Agreement before twelve o'clock within the few Parliamentary days which remain to us.
MR. LOUGH: I was not here last night.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It has come upon me as a surprise that the hon. Member did not take part in our proceedings this morning.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will not the debate on the Navy Estimates automatically close to-morrow at midnight?
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Is it not a fact that no other business than Supply can be taken before midnight on an Allotted Day?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is not for me to give a ruling on a point of order, but I think there can be no doubt that my hon. friend has accurately interpreted the purport of the Standing Order.
MR. NANNETTI: When is it proposed to take the Bradford Wages Report?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope an opportunity may be found next week. Clearly there will be none this week.
MR. LOUGH: Was not a promise given of a statement on this matter?
LORD STANLEY: I said I would make a statement when the Vote came on.
MR. NANNETTI: It was distinctly understood that a statement would be made on the Telegraph Vote, and I think it will be a breach of faith if we do not have one.
Loan STANLEY: I will make one if I possibly can, and I will appeal to the Leader of the House to give me an opportunity.

WORKMEN'S TRAINS.
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought, up, and read. [Inquiry not completed.]
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 305.]

SUPPLY [19TH ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1904–5.

  CLASS II.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £14,371, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Chief Secretary in Dublin and London, and of the Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums."
  COLONEL SAUNDERSONsaid he rose to propose a diminution of the salary of the Chief Secretary by the sum of £100, and he did so with very great regret, having known his right hon. friend for a number of years. Admiring, as he did, his great ability, and believing, as well, that he had the welfare of Ireland at heart, he greeted his appointment as Chief Secretary with very great satisfaction, especially as he knew he did not come there in the character of a novice, for he had made acquaintance with Irish affairs under a notable and successful master.

  737
  The right hon. Gentleman was in Ireland when the Prime Minister was Chief Secretary, and the Prime Minister as Chief Secretary did what no other Chief Secretary had done before; he laid, during his tenure of office, the foundation of a great reputation as a statesman. There were three methods by which it was possible to govern Ireland. They might govern Ireland in the interests of the majority of the people; they might govern her in the interests of the majority, or they might govern the country in the interests of Ireland alone, irrespective of both Parties. To his mind the last was the proper way to govern Ireland, and it was the method adopted by the Prime Minister when he was Chief Secretary. The First Lord of the Treasury, regardless of oceans of abuse which were poured upon his head in the North and South of Ireland, achieved his object—the pacification of the country, and, in doing so, he earned the admiration and respect of his Opponents, as well as of his political friends. When the present Chief Secretary went over to Ireland to assume the reins of Government, they naturally anxiously looked out for some indication as to which of the three methods of government he would adopt. They had not, however, long to wait until they found the direction—the fatal direction—in which his steps were leading him. That indication was afforded by three appointments which were made to important positions in the Government of Ireland. The first was the appointment of a gentleman who had taken a promiment part in the "Plan of Campaign," Mr. Gill. Another appointment was that of Mr. Finucane, who was made one of the Chief Land Commissioners. The third appointment which indicated the line along which his feet were treading was that of Sir Antony McDonnell. It was a strange thing that the Government of Ireland should seek those who were to help to govern that country from a place like India. He remembered that late Lord Salisbury once made a speech about "black men and Hottentots," which provoked great ire among hon. Members opposite, but, after all, it was a harmless remark. Still, was it to be assumed that, because a man had successfully governed forty millions of Hindoos,
  738
  that fact justified his appointment to govern four and three - quarter millions of Irishmen, especially in face of the fact that those Irishmen occupied more of the time of the House of Commons than did the inhabitants of any other portion of the British Empire?
  They had not very long to wait before the effect of the appointment of Sir Antony McDonnell became clear. The House would remember that there had been a Dreyfus case in France which very nearly upset the French Republic, and although Captain Dreyfus was a very humble officer, yet the fate of the Republic hung upon his false condemnation without evidence and without a fair trial. Well, he had to tell them that there was an Irish Dreyfus, and had it not been that the case of Constable Anderson had come to their knowledge, had they not been placed in a position to make representations to the Government on the subject of Constable Anderson's treatment, he might now have been a disgraced man, and the woman whom he had married might have borne a dishonoured name. Constable Anderson was a very humble person, but an Irish constable had just as much right to justice as a Jew. Knowing, as he did, the chivalrous character of his right hon. friend, he was certain that when he got up to reply he would take the whole blame in connection with the case on his own shoulders. He would say, "I am the man to blame," but there was no reason—there was no justification for his taking that line of action as the House would realise when he (the speaker) came to relate the circumstances as clearly and as shortly as he could. When it came to his knowledge that this case of gross and incredible injustice had been perpetrated in the twentieth century in Ireland, he went to the right hon. friend the Chief Secretary and related to him as clearly as he could the whole facts of the Anderson case as far as he knew them. Some details had since cropped up, but at any rate, as the result of what he related to the right hon. Gentleman, the Chief Secretary told him that he had never heard a word about Anderson. He thereupon informed him that it was a case so atrocious that he intended to bring it before the House of commons, where every man had a right to air his

  739
  grievances. His right hon. friend suggested that he should delay doing so until he had been able to obtain information in regard to the matter. Well, the right hon. Gentleman got his information, and he thought he would have to admit that he found that the statements which had been made to him were practically borne out by the facts of the case. He noticed that his right hon. friend shook his head as to that, but it was clear that the right hon. Gentleman got certain information, that the Law Officers of the Crown reported upon it, and the result was that Anderson was reinstated, and received his back pay. Therefore, it might be taken that the right hon. Gentleman found out that the statements made to him were amply justified by the facts; otherwise, why should he have reinstated the man and given him his back pay. If he were guilty of the charges made against him he ought never to have been reinstated. If he were innocent, as he had been proved to be, it was only right that he should have been reinstated and should have received his back pay.
  It ought to be borne in mind that Constable Anderson had a record of seventeen-and-a-half years service, without one mark against his conduct during the whole of that long period. At the end of that term he committed a crime in the eyes of some persons which cannot be condoned or overcome. He fell in love with a Roman Catholic girl, and the priest of the parish—Father O'Hara—determined that the marriage should never come off. It was well known that the Irish priesthood were opposed to mixed marriages. They refused, and no doubt conscientiously believed they had a right to do so, to allow the gulf, which they themselves had helped to dig between two parts of the population to have a matrimonial bridge thrown across it. How was this to be accomplished? The girl was one off Father O'Hara's own parishioners, she had some property in the parish, and it was desired that her marriage with the constable should be prevented. Father O'Hara appeared to be not only a strong politician but a man capable also of laying very clever plans in order to carry out his own will. He set to work to try and get rid of the constable—to get him
  740
  sent out of the district. He got hold of witnesses, he interviewed them personally, and some of them, apparently, he instructed as to the accusations which were to be brought against this constable. Those accusations were three in number. In the first place the constable was accused of using obscene language to some little boys in the street on a certain occasion; secondly, the accusation was that he was seen going into a public-house during service hours by a back door and coming out at the front door; and the third accusation, which was the real accusation—the grave one which was said to demand his dismissal from the force—was that he had been seen with the girl to whom he was engaged to be married going out on bicycles, that they had been tracked into a wood at ten o'clock at night, and that there had been improper conduct on their part. Such were the three accusations. Those accusations were formulated and sent up to Sir Neville Chamberlain by the rev. Father O'Hara, and the result was that there was inquiry into them. In the end Anderson was declared to be not guilty of any of the charges.
  One would have imagined that in any civilised country there would then have been an end of the case so far as those particular accusations were concerned, and that they would have vanished into thin air. But nothing of the kind happened here. When a priest once set out to accomplish a certain thing he was not to be easily stopped. Father O'Hara consequently took further steps. Now he came to another point. On a certain occasion he made a speech in Ireland—it was last year—and mentioned the fact that Father O'Hara had been in direct communication with Sir Antony McDonnell in this very case. He made the accusation in public, it appeared in print, and his right hon. friend the Chief Secretary very properly, no doubt, took exception to the speech, and wrote him a letter stating that he was perfectly wrong in the allegation he had made. He wondered whether the right hon. Gentleman still adhered to that opinion. He remembered that in answer to a Question very recently in that House the right hon. Gentleman had admitted that Father O'Hara and Sir Antony McDonnell had had a conversation at a

  741
  meeting of the Congested Districts Board on that particular case, when it was still sub judice. He had no doubt when he made that charge, and he repeated it now, that this was a got-up job between Father O'Hara and Sir Antony Mc Donnell.
  But what had since occurred? After the acquittal of this constable on all three counts, Sir Antony McDonnell decided that there should be a public and sworn inquiry into the transaction. He would like to know where Sir Neville Chamberlain came into the matter. Still, the sworn inquiry was held into the conduct of the constable, and at that inquiry nothing new was brought forward beyond the three counts upon which Anderson had already been acquitted. Witnesses were brought up to prove the charges, but no new accusations were made. The witnesses said all they had to say, and what was the result. It transpired that the witnesses who testified against Constable Anderson had been in direct communication with Father O'Hara, and one boy, who accused the constable of making use of obscene language, admitted in his evidence that he went to Father O'Hara's house. He was asked, "Were you speaking to Father O'Hara?" and his reply was, "No, he was speaking to me." What did it mean, the priest of the parish getting a boy eleven years of age to his house, and telling him what he would have to prove against the policeman? Why, no one would hang a dog on such evidence. All the witnesses, apparently, had been in direct communication with Father O'Hara, and that induced him to believe that it was a got-up job, that it was a nefarious conspiracy against one unhappy man—a weak man on the one side, and the power of the Irish priesthood and the permanent Under-Secretary for Ireland on the other. What chance had the single man.
  He would not weary the House by going through the evidence. It could be seen by anyone who took the trouble to examine it that the people who bore testimony against Anderson were all personally animated against him. For instance, there was the public house keeper. He admitted that he was personally antagonistic to Anderson, and it appeared from the evidence of the
  742
  county inspector that Anderson had been particularly active in dealing with public-houses which sold liquor during illegal hours. Luckily for Anderson the accusation against him as to having been seen going into the public-house on a Sunday was borne out by his own testimony, for he entered in the police diary—as it was his duty to—the fact that he had visited this particular house. Then as to the question of misconduct in the wood, that was by far the most serious question. He had never conceived that there could be such a lack of chivalry on the part of Irishmen as had been displayed by hon. Members opposite in this case. With all their faults, Irishmen were supposed to have the one virtue of chivalry, and if they only read Tom Moore they would see what value he attached to the gem of virtue in womanhood. When he found that the hon. Member for East Mayo had on the Paper the Question, which was, he believed, actually put to the Chief Secretary by the Member for South Kilkenny, in regard to the poor woman whose name had been mixed up with this case, asking whether the girl that Anderson had married was the one with whom this misconduct was alleged to have taken place, he thought that all chivalry was dead. He had never thought to see in the House of Commons a man who would try to destroy the honour of one of his fellow-countrywomen by an invidious and odious Question such as that—a Question unworthy of an Irishman and of a Member of the House of Commons. He naturally put down a Question immediately afterwards. He was not going to allow an atrocious slander to be put upon the Paper without reply, and he asked the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government had evidence that this girl, who had been brought to Dublin by her mother and examined there by doctors, who had declared her to be virgo intacta, was the same with whom it was suggested the misconduct had taken place, and he got a reply in the affirmative, so that, at any rate, whatever the unfortunate circumstances in this case, the girl had emerged from the controversy with her honour untarnished.
  Constable Anderson was now living in another part of Ireland. But what he wanted the House to consider was that there was something infinitely more serious

  743
  than the constable's reputation at stake. How were they going to deal with a force which, under the most difficult conditions, had always been true to their rule. What would members of the Royal Irish Constabulary do if evidence of this kind was to be got up against them for venomous and malicious purposes, and they were to be placed at the mercy of any conspirators? That was a serious question which the House ought to consider. The Anderson case was not the only one which showed how the wind was blowing. Another case happened only the other day at a place called Roundstone in Connemara. Happily, however, there was no woman concerned in that, but still it was almost as bad as the Anderson case. At the time the incident occurred Roundstone was anticipating a visit from the Archbishop of Tuam, and naturally great preparations were being made with flags and banners to give him a reception. At Roundstone there were two Protestant constables. These were met in the street by a public-house keeper, who had a large display of bunting over his establishment, and who asked them—knowing that there was some difficulty in the law with regard to the display of flags over such establishments—if they thought he was out side the law in allowing the flags to fly. The constables replied that perhaps he might be, and he thereupon said he would take the flags down. But at that they both remonstrated with him, and said they were not sure of the position, and that they had no authority to ask him to remove the flags. Was it a crime for the policemen to give their opinion or advice when asked for it? These men simply did that, and one would have imagined that nothing more would have happened. There was, however, a priest in the parish, Father Gleeson, who seemed to be very much of the same sort as Father O'Hara, and he apparently communicated with Sir Antony McDonnell. Then, without any tried and without being given any opportunity of defending themselves, these two constables found one day that a superior officer came down to administer to them a severe reprimand for their conduct. They did not know what they had done; they did not know who was their accuser, and very naturally they refused to lie
  744
  down under the censure. They accordingly asked for a public inquiry. One of the constables had now been transferred—not of his own free will—but the other still remained in the place. The Chief Secretary, in answer to a Question which was addressed to him the other day, said it was not owing to this incident that the constable had been removed, but he was bound to say that the facts were very suspicious. At any rate, the men demanded to know the name of their accuser, and the nature of the charges brought against them, in order that they might have an opportunity of refuting them. This appeared to have caused some excitement at headquarters. He supposed the shadow of the Anderson case had fallen over the Castle, and the result was that orders were issued for an inquiry, and the men were examined for the first time respecting the charges of this priest, Mr. Gleeson.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Father Gleeson, if you please. He has as much right to be called the Rev. as you have to be called Colonel. He is a much better man.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSONsaid that was beside the question. The rev. Father Gleeson had received a letter from Sir Antony McDonnell communicating to him the written protests of both these constables. Had anyone ever heard of such a proceeding as that? These documents were invariably held to be confidential, and he ventured to say that if any Member of the House had asked for the reproduction of a communication of that kind the right hon. Gentleman would have refused it. But here they had the case of a parish priest writing up to the Deputy-Governor of Ireland, and getting from him a copy of the protests of these men. That was not the way to conduct Irish affairs, and it was not the way to maintain discipline and honour in the Irish Constabulary Force. His object in bringing this matter forward, and in proposing the reduction of the salary of the Chief Secretary, was to make, before the session closed, a protest against a system of government in Ireland which had been tried in the past, and had hitherto ended in disastrous failure. One thing, at any rate, lovalists

  745
  of northern Ireland, including as they did many Roman Catholics, looked upon with abhorrence, and that was the degrading spectacle of a human being being jumped upon by priests. To that they would never consent. He spoke, however, of course, for a small minority of Members. They were, no doubt, a small Party in the House, but at the same time ventured to say that, though small in numbers, they represented the greatest constituency in the Empire. They represented the loyal men from the Giant's Causeway down to Cape Clear, and wherever they heard of injustice being perpetrated, upon whomsoever it might be, they would exercise their undoubted right to raise their voices in the House of Commons in protest against it.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum not exceeding £14,271, be granted for the said Service.—(Colonel Saunderson.)
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLINadmired the courage of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, who did not whisper vituperation like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Belfast, who was leaving the House, who was in fact all evicted War Minister, after having grabbed h is position in the Cabinet. The right hon. Gentleman was leaving the War Office as he had had to leave every position he had ever held, and he had not the courage to face the Irish Members. He was glad that this question of Constable Anderson had been raised. After all the hysterics on Orange platforms in Ireland and in the yellow organs in this country, it was well that the matter shall be threshed out. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman laid boasted of his great constituency, but some of his colleagues were not likely to be returned to the House at the next general election, and he doubted if the hon. Member for North Antrim would have much cause to smile when that day came. The hon. and learned Gentleman had occupied the position of unpaid private secretary to the Chief Secretary, but he was found to be too dear at the price; he discovered it was not consistent with his idea of Irish patriotism to hold an unpaid office. He had risen to impeach the conduct of the Chief Secretary in connection with
  746
  one of the most scandalous transactions which had ever been known in the history of Irish administration. The right hon. and gallant Member had complained of certain appointments made by the Chief Secretary. Well, those appointments were the very basis of the Anderson case. Hon. Gentlemen opposite never refused appointments. The Ulster Tory only gave up office when the emoluments were too small. But the right hon. Gentleman should have been the last to complain on that score, for hid not his son been appointed an inspector of the Local Government Board at a salary of £1,000 a year?
  SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Two sons have received appointments.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: One is sufficient for my case.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: I never knew my son's salary had began raised.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLIN: Perhaps I am mistaken, but it probably would have been increased had not the right hon. Gentleman raised a Tory revolt in the House of Commons. He did not object to the fact that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had secured an appointment for his own son; probably he was perfectly fitted for the office he held. But surely it did not lie in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman to attack the Chief Secretary, who certainly had not given appointments to Irish Catholics, who did not want them under the Irish Administration. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman had attacked the appointment of Sir Antony McDonnell, a distinguished Governor in India. Was it not remarkable that a man who successfully governed 40,000,000 Hindoos had found it impossible, owing to the garrison of hon. Members opposite, to successfully administer Irish affairs? He was appointed at the direct instigation of the King, but because he was a Catholic—
  *THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Member is out of order in introducing His Majesty's name.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Oh, no! Only if it is done for the purpose

  747
  of influencing debate, and it was not so in this case.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLINsaid he would of course bow to the ruling of the Chair. But he trusted that the Chief Secretary would boldly take the responsibility on himself for what had occurred. The hon. Member for South Belfast was the representative of the new democracy, and had recently been returned in direct opposition to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Armagh; simultaneously the hon. Member for South Tyrone was in the right way of capturing Ulster seats, and these two influences combined were producing a happier condition of things in the North. Was this new feeling to be stifled by the present Orange ascendency, the representatives of which were creating a new Dreyfus for the edification of people who did not understand the situation and for the purpose of resurrecting hon. Members for Ulster from the position to which they had been reduced on the land and labourers questions.
  They had been told that Constable Anderson had an unblemished record. He would demand that which hon. Members opposite had not ventured to ask for—a full, complete, and impartial inquiry into all the circumstances of the case and into the antecedents of Constable Anderson. Would the right hen. Gentleman tell them something as to Anderson's record when he was moved from Rossport to Mullaghroe? Would the right hon. Gentleman tell them something about the scandals connected with his name when he was sent to Kiltimagh? Could the district inspector and the Protestant clergyman throw any light on the matter? They did not want that day the airy sweet nothings in which the right hon. Gentleman was wont to indulge; they wanted only an impartial inquiry. They did not fear that, neither did Father O'Hara. They had been refused every inquiry and they had been refused the production of documents which would enable the House to understand the case. He agreed that there was something more serious at stake in this matter than the character of a constable. There was involved the honour of the Irish Catholic name. This case had been made a war-cry of in Ireland and even in England. It had
  748
  been practically asserted by the right hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh that this was part and parcel of a vile conspiracy against the Protestants of Ireland, and the character of the priests was a chief factor in this vile conspiracy.
  Father O'Hara complained against this policeman, who, he said, was not a fit character to be in the parish. It was not for Father O'Hara to decide that, or for the hon. and gallant Gentleman; but for a tribunal appointed under the Constabulary Code. There was no doubt that Father O'Hara wished Anderson to be removed, and complained that he was not fit to be a policeman in a decent community. He maintained that Father O'Hara, who was one of the ablest parish priests in Ireland, was entitled to make a complaint about a matter which affected the conduct and morality of his own parish. A Court of inquiry was held, and the result was that the Inspector-General, who was a Protestant, dismissed this policeman from the force. Something had been said about a first and second inquiry. There was only one inquiry, one properly constituted tribunal. The Court consisted of two sub-inspectors, one a Protestant and the other a Catholic, who took evidence on oath. If Sir Antony McDonnell was charged with being guilty of a base transaction, then these two sub-inspectors should be charged with the same offence. He asked the House whether the judgment of a body of that character was lightly to be dismissed. But what happened? The right hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh went to the Chief Secretary and told him that there would be another Ulster revolt if Anderson was not reinstated; and the right hon. Gentleman reinstated this policeman without new evidence and of his own volition—superseded, therefore, the former inquiry and insulted his own tribunal. He wanted to know if that were a proper and constitutional manner of dealing with this question? What confidence could the police of Ireland have in the right hon. Gentleman when he overturned the judgment of the sworn inquiry? The mistake the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had made was not to hold fast by the result of the Court of

  749
  inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman imagined, however, that he had to stop the mouths of the Unionist Members in Ulster; but if the right hon. Gentleman had known these Members as he ought to know them, all he had to do was to crack the Party whip and they would at once come back to the fold. The right hon. Gentleman thought that the whole thing could be quietly done; but he forgot about compulsory sales, about the Bann, and that the Pope was not so unpopular in Ulster as he used to be. In order to compensate for the loss of the Pope, the Ulster Unionist Party rallied together and clung to the Anderson case as a drowning man clung to a straw.
  There were only two ways of having this question settled to the satisfaction of the Irish people. One of them was for the right hon. Gentleman to produce, and lay on the Table of the House of Commons, all the evidence, documents, and correspondence in connection with the case. The right hon. Gentleman would probably state that there was no precedent for such a course and that he had no authority to do so. But Lord Spencer and Lord Cadogan, both ex-Lords-Lieutenant of Ireland, had demanded the production of the correspondence, although from different points of view. Lord Spencer had stated in the other House that there were precedents for producing such documents; why, then, should the right hon. Gentleman hesitate to agree to what had been asked for in both Houses of Parliament? The only people who did not want a full inquiry were the hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had made this case a, rallying cry to bring them together. The Chief Secretary could not escape his responsibility: he could not hide behind Sir Antony MacDonnell. He must justify his action in superseding the judgment of the Court of inquiry which had been confirmed by the Inspector - General; and must either grant a full inquiry or, as he has already said, place the Papers on the Table of the House.
  The right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite had made an attack on Father O'Hara, who was a member of the Congested Districts Board in Ireland. He ventured to say that there was not a more tolerant, broad-minded, or generous priest in
  750
  all Ireland, or in all the world. His devotion to the cause of the people had made him most popular in the country, and yet this was the priest on whom was concentrated all the attacks of the Daily Mail and the Globe, and the impeachment which they had just heard from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. Father O'Hara wrote a letter to The Times, which they refused to publish—another proof that there was a conspiracy combination between the organ of Pigott in England and the Orange ascendancy gang in the North of Ireland. In that letter Father O'Hara referred The Times to Sir David Harrel in witness of his tolerant, behaviour in the town of Kiltimagh, and stated that, although there was an overwhelming majority of Catholics in that place, they got up a memorial to the Postmaster-General and obtained the postmastership for a Protestant. In how many cases in Ulster did an overwhelming Protestant majority take similar action? This was the priestly desperado of whom they had heard! He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would clear from the stigma which had been put upon him this priest who was honoured in Ireland.
  MR. WILLIAM MOOREsaid the hon. Member in his speeches always imputed unworthy motives to those who took different views from himself, but if the hon. Member railed at them from morn till dewy eve it would not put them off their food or sleep. He desired to take the earliest opportunity to rebut the charges made by the hon. Member against this unfortunate policeman whom the hon. Member had taken the opportunity of vilifying, who had passed through the fire of affliction, and against whom there was no official record that was unfavourable. His superior officer had stated that he was the best policeman in the district, and it was not until this tolerant priest and his coadjutors set to work to rake up a scandal that the first decision was upset.
  MR. JOSEPH DEVLINsaid the statement on which he had based his remarks was made in the letter sent by Father O'Hara to the Irish papers which he offered to indemnify if an action for libel

  751
  was brought against them for publishing it.
  MR. WILLIAM MOOREsaid that showed the source from which this scandal came. The Chief Secretary had no right to whitewash Sir Antony McDonnell at the expense of this humble policeman. The right hon. Gentleman owed loyalty to both these subordinates, and any such action would lead to further disappointment and resentment. He recognised the force of the argument that Sir Antony McDonnell could not reply to criticisms passed on him in that House. But the real answer to that was that Sir Anthony McDonnell should be careful not to place himself in a position from which he could not expect to escape criticism, and further that he had in that House the Chief Secretary or Ireland to defend him. And was it not absurd to say when he acted as an open shameless partisan that they should not have the right to attack him in that House? If ever there was a case in which it would be ludicrous to slur over the acts of Sir Antonty McDonnell it was this case. As a matter of moral responsibility they did not think that the Chief Secretary was to blame, because in a letter written by him in July he stated that he had never heard until then of the facts of the matter, so that December, January, and February went by and he never knew about it and could not be held responsible.
  There was another matter. There was great disposition shown to treat this case as trivial, and that disposition, he ventured to think, was shown for the benefit of English Members. English Members who were not practically acquainted with the real value of the Royal Irish Constabulary were very apt to be misled by the suggestion that this was a mere trivial police force matter, a mere disciplinary matter, a matter that the Irish police themselves could deal with. Assuming that to be so, however small it might have been in its origin and trivial in its nature, it had led to disastrous results in Ireland. It had convinced the noncommissioned officers and men of the Royal Irish Constabulary that while Sir Antony McDonnell was at the Castle, whenever a priest wished to vilify anyone he had only to write a letter to him.
  752
  They saw that in the Roundstone case. That was a disastrous state of affairs to have existing in the finest force they had to depend on in Ireland. All through the North of Ireland there was a feeling of unrest and dismay; there was a feeling that whenever a priest wanted a thing he had only got to write a note to Sir Antony McDonnell and the request would be granted, quite irrespective of Protestant interests and of justice. This case was important if they looked at it from a disciplinary point of view; but it was still more important when they found that it was part of a settled policy. It was only one of the many straws showing how the wind blew. They had had the Mills case, the Lewis case, and they had had case after case in which Sir Antony McDonnell had been at the bottom in inflicting injury because the unfortunate person concerned was a Protestant, and still hon. Members opposite would say that there was no bigotry. Well, of course, their views of bigotry and those of his colleagues largely differed.
  What was the result of it all? To - morrow when the daily papers came to be read, it would be found, as the result of Irish administration by the Unionist majority, that perhaps for the first time in twenty years votes of the Irish Nationalist Party had been given in support of the permanent Under-Secretary of the Executive. [NATIONALIST cries of dissent, and a NATIONALIST: Who told you that?] Well, if not, he trusted it would be because his remarks would have had the effect of having prevented it. Of course hon. Members opposite would welcome anything which would drive a wedge, as this was doing, into the confidence without which the discipline of the Royal Irish Constabulary could not be maintained. So far he and his colleagues had been fighting for the Irish Administration. [NATIONALIST interruption, and an HON. MEMBER: For how long?] He would give that hon. Member a nut to crack in a minute. If the question of this policy was made a Government question, the real result would be that they would be forced to reconsider the whole question of the Government of Ireland by Party. By voting against the Amendment of his right hon. and gallant friend the Member for Armagh they would be putting the

  753
  seal of approval on the policy which was typified and represented by the Anderson case. The whole question which the Committee would have to consider in effect was whether or not the Member for Armagh was correct in saying that they could bring the guilt home to Sir Antony McDonnell. If the Chief Secretary was not responsible, and they unhesitatingly accepted his statement, it followed that there were only two officials in Ireland who could be responsible: one was the Inspector-General and the other the Permanent Under-Secretary. Every effort had been made to make the Inspector-General a scapegoat in this matter, but he (Mr. Moore) thought he could satisfy the House that from the beginning to the end Sir Antony McDonnell alone appeared responsible. Their charge against Sir Antony McDonnell, in the first place, was that he had had extra official and unofficial dealings, behind the back of everybody, with this priest, with a view to the clearing out of this constable from the village of Kiltimagh. How was the Chief Secretary going to answer that? [Mr. FLAVIN: By the inquiry we ask for.] An inquiry would not meet the case. Was the right hon. Gentleman going to give them only the bald statement of Sir Antony McDonnell on the matter, or would he give them an inquiry and lay the correspondenee.
  There were a great many irregularities in this case. Ho would call attention to several matters which at least required explanation. In the first place, there was no doubt that the prime mover against this constable was the rev. Mr. O'Hara. He was a colleague of the Chief Secretary on the Congested Districts Board, where he was also a colleague of Sir Antony McDonnell. He wrote to the Globe explaining by what feelings he was actuated against this, the only Protestant policeman in Kiltimagh, and he went on to say, "I wish merely to have him cleared out of Kiltimagh." In time an inquiry was held. They then had the statement from the hon. Gentleman who represented that district in this House, to the effect that he wrote to the Chief Secretary. That meant that before the inquiry was held there was a communication from the rev. Mr. O'Hara to Sir Antony McDonnell, and if that was true it was entirely the
  754
  reversa of what came from Sir Antony McDonnell and what was told them by the Chief Secretary, because the answer of the Chief Secretary on the 29th of June was this—
  "Except on one occasion, no communications, verbal or Written, with reference to the case of Constable Anderson passed, prior to his dismissal, between Sir Antony McDonnell and the rev. Denis O'Hara."
  There was no doubt that the prime mover against the constable was the rev. Mr. O'Hara; and they now had the, statement of the hon. Member opposite that that reverend gentleman wrote to Sir Antony McDonnell to get an inquiry instituted. The first inquiry was conducted by the district inspector, and all the witnesses whom the rev. Mr. O'Hara could produce made statements which were reduced to writing, read over to the witnesses, and signed by them. What was the meaning of that? It was perfectly true that it was not on oath, and it would have been an irregularity if it had been. The meaning was that it a district inspector was sent down to see what was the nature of the case to be made. He was the judge of it, and if he found there was no case which could be substantiated against the constable the matter was at an end. It was exactly the same as if on a preliminary investigation the Grand Jury ignored the Bill. He challenged the Chief Secretary to tell the House if there was 1 per cent. of police cases in Ireland where the officer sent down to inquire and report on spot certified that there was no case in which the matter was ever proceeded with further. This was a complete investigation, and such was the law of England that where an inferior Court had declared a man to be innocent and had acquitted him there was no power in the High Court to review the case. Here was an acquittal, and the matter should have been closed. It was art extraordinary thing, which the Chief Secretary would have to explain to the House, how after the district inspector had acquitted this man there was influence enough at Dublin Castle to get a sworn inquiry into his case. The district inspector's report went to the county inspector, it went to the acting Inspector-General, and it was confirmed by all three. In regard to the charge of immorality, the report said that

  755
  the man and girl had done nothing which was not the ordinary custom of courting people. The district inspector found on the evidence of the witnesses that there was no evidence to support the charge of impropriety. It was said by the district inspector, and was confirmed by every legal person in authority above him, that against, the doubtful evidence they had the constable's unblemished record of seventeen years service. That was the result of what he might call the investigation of the Grand Jury, who threw out the Bill.
  It was just at this stage that Father O'Hara had his communication with Sir Antony McDonnell at a meeting of the Congested Districts Board. The priest had made the case, witness after witness deposed to the fact that the priest had had him up at his house, or had met him, and had told him what he had to swear. When the district inspector, who saw these people on the spot, and reduced their statements to writing, came to an adverse conclusion, the priest said he wanted an inquiry where they could make these statements on oath. Was there ever a more ludicrous position? He came to the point now that the hon. Member for Perth suggested. He put it to the House, was he going too far when he said that this tribunal, so extraordinarily appointed, was a packed tribunal, packed in a sense that it was sent down for a specific purpose, to reconsider the same evidence, the only difference being that this time it was to be on oath? Assuming that they went to the length of having a second inquiry—and that was the first stumbling block the Chief Secretary would have to get over, because it was unusual after an acquittal that there should he a second inquiry—what was the ordinary course in the Constabulary? The House would understand that in Ireland difficulties as to discipline might arise in a county in which officers or men might be implicated. The ordinary practice where a constable, a private, if he might so call him, was concerned, was that the inquiry was invariably conducted by a district inspector from an immediately adjoining division in the same county. That was perfectly reasonable and he wanted to know why that course was not followed in this case? In this
  756
  case they did a thing which, as far as his information went, had never been done before and certainly not in recent years. They sent a special gentleman down from the depot in Dublin, where he was next door to Sir Antony McDonnell. This young gentleman, a Roman Catholic, who knew quite well that the object of this new inquiry was not to get fresh evidence, but to reverse the previous finding, was sent down from Dublin to take the inquiry. In a case so suspicious as this, brimming over at every stage with irregularities, that course was sufficiently suspicious to justify everyone in looking at the case broadly. The president of the Court was a Roman Catholic, but it was right and fair to say that he had no personal evidence against that officer of any kind. All he said was that the fact that he was sent down was unusual. He was sent down with the knowledge that it was the verdict and not the evidence which was complained of by Sir Antony MacDonnell. He also knew that complaint was made to Sir Antony McDonnell at the instance of the priest of what had already happened. He found a verdict, and he asked the House to look at the evidence, which he invited anyone interested in the case to read.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Only parts of the evidence were published.
  MR. WILLIAM MOORE: The evidence has been published. The hon. and learned Gentleman will find it in the Irish Times of 15th June.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid the full evidence had never been published. The Chief Secretary that afternoon refuted it.
  MR. WILLIAM MOOREsaid the evidence he held in his hand was published by the Irish Times, a journal of admitted respectability in Ireland, as being sworn evidence at the trial. He could not do better than quote the Irish Times, and he was sure it would satisfy his colleagues on that side of the House.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: I happen to have in my pocket at the present

  757
  moment the whole of the evidence published by the Western People when the trial took place.
  MR. WILLIAM MOOREread extracts from the report of the trial. He went on to say, without fear of contradiction, that if the evidence given before the Court was sifted on cross-examination, Father O'Hara would be found to have been at the back of every witness produced. The Scotch term "adjusting evidence" might be exactly applied to it. If ever evidence was adjusted it was by Father O'Hara in this case. A very extraordinary thing was the haste with which the decision was come to, because the inquiry only terminated on 26th November, and an order dismissing this unfortunate constable from the force was made on 8th December. Matters were so situated under the Royal Constabulary Act that the services of a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary could only be dispensed with by the Lord-Lieutenant, and he acted only on the advice of his secretary, who, in this case, was the Permanent Under-Secretary, Sir Antony McDonnell. The House might take it from him that the advice of the Secretary or Under-Secretary was required before the Lord-Lieutenant would dismiss a man. The importance of that was that it left it no longer a matter in the control of the Inspector-General, but under the law it became Sir Antony McDonnell who had to deal with it. The Chief Secretary had told them that he himself was not cognisant of these matters until February. If the only charge against the constable was that of merely taking liberties with the girl he contended that his dismissal was a monstrous punishment for a man with seventeen years good record in the force. The invariable practice in charges of seduction was for the complainant to be written to, and told to bring her action in the County Court, and then it a wrong had been done the constable was punished. But in the present case the priest was pressing, and Sir Antony McDonnell was willing to oblige him, and so he thought the best way to stop the marriage was by dismissing Anderson.
  He was bound to say that the Chief Secretary had acted like a gentleman, and that when he found
  758
  a wrong had been done he did nothing but what was to his infinite credit. It was hard upon the Chief Secretary that matters of which he was not cognisant should take this disgraceful shape, and that he should have to reply to them. The Chief Secretary had stated that he re-established the constable on full consideration of the medical certificate from the girl, that the evidence with regard to the constable was equally compatible with his innocence or his guilt, but that the medical officer's certificate constituted fresh evidence on which he felt justified in reinstating him. Sir Antony McDonnell had that further evidence before him when he wrote approving the draft of the letter of dismissal on 23rd January. On the identical evidence on which the Chief Secretary reinstated this man, Sir Antony McDonnell was willing to ruin him for ever. Was it any wonder that a case of this sort should excite suspicion, distress and dismay at Irish government by Sir Antony McDonnell. There was not a parish in Ireland now where a Protestant constable was not walking on peas for fear of annoying the Catholics. [NATIONALIST cries of "Oh!"] They had been told that Sir Neville Chamberlain exhibited great gallantry in Afghanistan when he raised the frontier regiments. He should be sorry to say anything reflecting upon the courage of this soldier, but however much he might be a match for the Afghans he was no match for Sir Antony McDonnell. Sir Antony was at the Castle carrying out the behests of the priests and could twist Sir Neville Chamberlain round his finger. [NATIONALIST cries of "Oh!"] While Sir Antony McDonnell was at Dublin Castle there was no chance of justice for a Protestant. While scandal after scandal was perpetrated in Ireland in the name of Unionism there would be nothing but prejudice against the cause. The Chief Secretary had on two occasions reversed proceedings in regard to the police, and he appealed to him to give that House some guarantee for the future. All they wanted in Ireland was impartiality, and that was the one thing which while the present Under-Secretary was there they were sure of not getting. Before matters went too far something should be done to avoid the danger of the Ulster Members being returned by their constituents as an independen

  759
  Party, absolutely out of touch with the English Unionist Party. This wretched Jonah who kept the whole country in a turmoil to please his own co-religionists should be thrown overboard.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,)said that the speech of the hon. Member was marred, he thought, by animus against a very distinguished member of the Irish Administration, and he asked for close attention while he dealt very fully with this case. The whole discussion had centred round the case of Constable Anderson, but what was important was that it was stated both by his right hon. and gallant friend and his hon. and learned friend that this case was typical of a policy, a case of mischievous interference by the Under-Secretary in Irish affairs and an interference so mischievous and indefensible as to bring the administration of the country into discredit. That was a very grave charge; and, apart from its general gravity, it was serious from two points o view. It was always a serious matter when it was alleged, and widely believed, that of His Majesty's subjects had been exposed to judicial or quasi-judicial injustice, and when that subject wore His Majesty's uniform, and there was also involved an aspersion upon a woman, the seriousness Was aggravated. It was also a serious matter from the point of view of the discipline of the Royal Irish Constabulary. He could not lay on the Table Departmental communications or the notes taken at the inquiry. These were much fuller than the report in the newspaper which had been referred to; but it was a recognised principle that the House could not, upon the perusal of evidence that they had not heard, re-try any case determined by an appointed tribunal. If he showed grounds for believing that the local commission of inquiry and the Inspector-General acted honestly to the best of their knowledge and belief, and tried to do impartial justice, it was not to be held that he was suggesting any doubt as to the innocence of the constable or as to the virtue of the woman.
  Before giving his own version of all that took place, he felt bound to give the representation of the Inspector-General
  760
  who commanded the Royal Irish Constabulary, who said—
  "I hope you will make it quite clear that this is an attack on the Protestant Inspector-General and not an attack on the Catholic Under-Secretary."
  One of the chief points on which the attack in the Anderson case was based was that he was tried and acquitted, and then, at the instigation of the Rev. D. O'Hara, that the Under-Secretary caused him to be tried over again. The Inspector-General put the case in this way—
  "Some time in July, 1903, the Rev. D O'Hara wrote to District-Inspector Shankey making certain complaints against Constable Anderson. Whenever complaints are made against members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, investigations are instituted locally to see if sufficient grounds exist for disciplinary action. This was done. The district inspector did as is usually done in similar cases; he took statements from various people and forwarded them to me. I considered them and came to the conclusion that, though Constable Anderson might have been seen caressing Miss Sweeney, yet as he was engaged to be married to her and such endearments are common to persons in his class of life, there were not sufficient grounds to consider that a man of his previous good character had behaved immorally. It is true that a man named Carr had stated that he had seen them in an immoral position in a wood, but his statement was a vague one and I did not attach any credence to it. I did not believe that Anderson had used obscene language before boys, and it seemed to me very doubtful whether he had entered public-houses when not authorised to do so. I saw no reason to believe Constable Anderson was guilty of what was attributed to him. I recorded this view on the 11th September. When I returned from leave about the 20th October I found the case had assumed a fresh aspect. The county inspector on his own initiative reported on the 9th October that Carr had made a detailed statement as regards the alleged act of immorality. I had made no further move in the matter, as I was on leave, but when I read Carr's statement I felt that in the interests of the force, as well as in Constable Anderson's own interest, it was essential that the matter should be cleared up. I therefore ordered a Court of inquiry to assemble, and as far as I can remember I directed the county inspector to ask the Rev. O'Hara what were the exact charges he desired to prefer against Constable Anderson. He replied that he had no further charges to make in addition to those he had originally made in July. For that Court I selected a Roman Catholic and a Protestant district inspector. As a rule I do not notice what is the religion of the inspectors detailed as members of Courts of inquiry, but in this case I purposely detailed a Roman Catholic and a Protestant, because charges against a Protestant

  761
  constable had been made by a Roman Catholic clergyman. The Roman Catholic officer I originally selected was District Inspector Byrne. I then found he was absent on leave, and as it would have caused him great personal expense and inconvenience to return before the completion of his leave, I cancelled the order and appointed District-Inspector W. Hetreed in his place. The latter being police instructor at the depot, where only a few recruits remained, could more easily be spared than an officer in the country."
  His hon. and learned friend said that this was without a precedent, but it was not unusual to detail officers from the depot to sit on Courts of inquiry. They could be spared more easily for such duty than officers from the country. It was done in the case of District-Inspector Powell, who was sent to Lusk in 1896, District-Inspector Byrne, sent to Cork in 1901, and District-Inspector Hetreed, sent to Kiltimagh in 1903.
  The Inspector-General continues—
  "As regards the evidence, I would remark that it was given before two trained police officers who throughout their career have been in the habit of studying the demeanour of witnesses. They are, therefore, in my judgment, far better able to satisfy themselves as regards the credence to be given to any particular witness than members of an ordinary jury. The opinion they recorded was, I have no doubt whatever, given to the best of their conscience. I concurred in the view they expressed and recommended the dismissal of Anderson from the force. I fail to see what cause any one has for complaint. Anderson has been reinstated and has married Bridget Sweeney: yet what reply could you have given in the House if, after the fresh and very grave allegations made to the county inspector on the 9th October, I had failed to make a full and searching inquiry on oath into the case, notwithstanding that I had previously formed the opinion that Anderson was innocent? The reckless and unscrupulous statement in certain newspapers that the confidence of the Royal Irish Constabulary is shaken in the justice they get at headquarters is absurd. I confidently assert that it is untrue and that never in the history of the force were the men more satisfied with the way they are treated than they are now."
  The Inspector-General also held that the hon. and learned Gentleman was not justified in saying that certain punishments had never been awarded in such cases.
  MR. WILLIAM MOOREsaid that what he had stated was that in a case of seduction, before a constable was dismissed it must be proved in the civil Court that he was in the wrong.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the Inspector-General said that—
  "Anderson's case was adjudged to be one of immorality, and he was treated as all similar cases, save one, had been dealt with by me since I assumed command of the force. You will notice that the cases of immorality from 1894 to 1899 averaged 3·46 per annum. In 1900 there was only one case, and in 1901 none. In 1902 however, they recommenced, and in 1903, including Anderson's, there were no less than seven."
  And then the Inspector-General directed his attention to a recent judgment given in a civil action for breach of promise of marriage against a sergeant in the force in which Judge Gibson in his charge to the jury at Londonderry, on 18th July, 1903, was reported have said—
  "This is the second case where a wrong has been done a girl by a policeman which has come before me within the past few weeks. The first was in Dublin, and now we have another in which this girl was introduced to the fallen sisterhood by a constable stationed at Carrigans, and he has been followed by a sergeant of forty years of age. It is a source of great discomfort and alarm to find that policemen, who should protect the public and farmers' daughters walking along the roads, are found in the ranks of seducers. I do not know whether there is a bad mark in the official records for such an offence, nor do I know whether there is an officer of the police force listening to me. I hope there is, but if there is not, there ought to be. I am not aware whether county inspectors take any steps in their districts to punish men under them who are proved guilty of the offence I have alluded to, or whether the Inspector-General has a general regulation to meet the case. This I do know, that if I had any authority as a police officer, I would at once say to these men 'out you go' from the membership of the force."
  He quoted that to show that the Inspector-General was not alone in taking a very serious view of cases of seduction when they were shown to have been committed. It was not wise to deal with these investigations as if they were Courts of law They were, in fact, councils to assist an officer, who had a perfect right to act as he pleased. Any man who went into a disciplined force sacrificed a good deal, He had to accept limitations on his liberty, he was subject to penalties for offences which were not crimes against the law, and he had to acquiesce in the right of the Crown to dispense with his services at any moment without assigning any cause or reason whatever. That the right of the Crown was not waived by the Court of inquiry, which was not

  763
  a judicial tribunal, was founded on a judgment of Chief Justice Dallas in the case of "Home v. Bentinck" in 1820. Dealing with the report of a Court of inquiry, the Chief Justice said—
  "what was this report, in its very nature, but a confidential communication, in consequence of a direction by the Commander-in-Chief, for the information of his own conscience in the exercise of Ins public duty, as to whether he would suffer the plaintiff to continue an officer or not, in a case in which it must be agreed and admitted that, independent of any inquiry whatever, His Majesty in the exercise of his prerogative might have dismissed him at any time."
  That was the law about a Court of inquiry in a disciplined force. Any man who entered any such a force of his own knowledge, exposed himself to that risk. Therefore it rested with the Crown to dispense with the services of a man on suspicion or because he could no longer do his duty with benefit to the corps to which he belonged. But, although that power was unqualified and unconditional, it must be exercised with discretion and without undue severity, and if it could be shown in any case that that power of dismissal on the finding of a Court of inquiry had been exercised without discretion or with undue severity, then, of course, the Minister of the Department in which that had happened might very well be called to account. On the other hand, if he could show—and that was what he had to prove—that hat the action of the Executive Minister and of the deputies and officers for whom he was responsible had not been wrongfully influenced by persons acting on improper motives, then he thought that power revived in full force. It might have been erroneously exercised, but if it could be shown that it had been honestly and faithfully exercised, and not wrongfully influenced by other persons, then he thought the House could not bring in a true bill against the Minister or officer concerned. His case was that the action of nobody was influenced at all up to 9th October and that after that date it was not wrongfully influenced The whole case against the Governmen. was that Father O'Hara intervened to influence the Under-Secretary, who influenced the Inspector-General. If he could show that nobody entered on the scene except the local officials up to a certain date, that all was done by them
  764
  without reference to headquarters, and that when the authorities at headquarters of the Royal Irish Constabulary took action they were not wrongfully influenced, then he thought he ought to be able to claim a verdict.
  The offence was alleged to have taken place on 24th June, but nothing of which he had any knowledge occurred until 26th July, when Father O'Hara undoubtedly wrote to the district inspector with a complaint, and the district inspector referred the matter, not to headquarters, but to the county inspector.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: Of what did Father O'Hara complain?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that Father O'Hara accused Anderson of using improper language before boys, and also said that two married men in his parish had complained to him that Anderson had been seen walking with a girl in byroads and woods. He said that this caused scandal, and asked that Anderson should be transferred from his parish. He did not then, or at any subsequent period, ask that Anderson should be punished. If this representation had no effect on the action of the local officer and did not reach headquarters, how could the motives charged be brought into the matter in order to create prejudice against the Under-Secretary? He would like to say a word about motives. It was assumed all through that Father O'Hara and others locally had a grudge against this man because he was a Protestant. That was a mere assumption, incapable of proof or disproof. It was a surmise, and a surmise which was not made at the time. The district inspector, who, he thought, had acted very properly and wisely throughout these transactions, when he referred the letter to the county inspector, said the animus of the rev. writer against the constable had no spontaneous origin, but the rev. gentleman was being used as an instrument by others to procure the constable's dismissal. That was a mere surmise. The district inspector at a later date said these charges were brought nominally by Father O'Hara but virtually at the instance of others. That was another surmise. In this village there was sure to be a lot of gossip and surmise and some ill-will

  765
  against a man based upon reasons that might have no reality. Constable Anderson himself made a statement when denying the charges. He declared that the Carr family had a grudge against the Sweeney family, and that he had no doubt that the charges were made in order to get him transferred because he had been doing his duty under the licensing laws. That was another surmise. Constable Anderson never suggested he was unpopular because he was a Protestant. That surmise was advanced later. But no one of these surmises affected the action of the police authorities. County Inspector Brooke, when this kind of talk was brought to him, saw no reason for removing the constable. That was the view of the county inspector on 10th August. Then these complaints were made, and the district inspector was directed (not by headquarters) to hear what complaint this clergyman had to make and to take down the stories the people had to tell. That he did, and this inquiry was held, but that was not a legal tribunal. Could it be said that the local police, after hearing these complaints and taking down the statements of Tom, Dick and Harry, and then sending them to the County inspector with the remark, "I don't think there is much in this," was a trial in a court of law? The county inspector, who on the 10th August pooh-poohed the whole affair, was away on leave and another district inspector was acting in his absence. He saw that written complaint and said that Constable Anderson should not be called upon to plead to the charges, but should be afforded an opportunity of making an explanation of the various matters alleged. Anderson made his explanation denying everything, and said the charges had been brought against him because he was unpopular through enforcing the licensing law rather strictly. On the 24th August the acting county inspector informed the district inspector that the papers disclosed nothing to justify these charges, but that, if he was of opinion that Anderson was guilty, he should be called upon to plead.
  There was quite another matter relating to some story of an alleged threatening letter which came into the case but which had nothing to do
  766
  with it. Because of this the papers were sent to headquarters on 5th September for the first time, and that was the first contact between the little local trouble and head-quarters. The Acting Inspector-General, acting under the instructions of the Inspector-General received this document and confirmed the report of the county inspector that there was not sufficient ground for action. He said, however, that if Anderson desired a Court iof inquiry he would consent to one. Here there was therefore, on the 5th September, a local complaint which would not have gone to headquarters but for this irrelevant matter of an alleged threatening letter. And now they had to come to the crucial point which he had to make good. All parties were waiting for the county inspector to conic back. The county inspector came back and he evidently saw the rev. O'Hara. The rev. Father O'Hara complained that sufficient consideration had not been given to the statements of Carr. That Carr swore that he saw certain things going on and that sufficient consideration was not given to this statement. On the 9th October the county inspector wrote that he had had an interview with Carr, and that the impression he got was that there could be no doubt that Anderson was having immoral intercourse with a girl when seen by Carr.
  MR. WILLIAM MOORE: The county inspector wrote to headquarters a letter, which contained this paragraph, "I have now seen Carr." Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us why he wrote to the Inspector-General and said that?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid reference was made to a statement in a letter of Father O'Hara that Carr had sworn so and set That letter was sent up to the Castle—he meant the headquarters of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and it did not come before Sir A. McDonnell. The county inspector, on the 10th August, had said there was nothing in the matter at all. He was the person who said he thought Anderson was the victim of persecution, and therefore it could not be said that he was prejudiced. Having seen this man and heard his story he reported that

  767
  it was a grave matter. Then the Assistant Inspector-General concurs and states that the county inspector's report renders it necessary that the Papers should be laid before the Inspector-General on his return from leave. On 21st October, the Inspector-General, having returned, informed the county inspector that his report of the 9th altered the aspect of the case and in the interest of both the constable and the public and rendered further inquiry necessary. He did not pronounce whether that was right or wrong—he himself thought it was right—but supposing it was wrong there was no ground on which there could be any suggestion that Sir Antony McDonnell had anything to do with it. The Inspector-General appointed the District Inspector of Athlene to hold the inquiry, and for the reasons he had given also appointed Inspector Hetreed to be present and preside. His hon. and learned friend said that Father O'Hara spoke to the Under-Secretary at the Congested Districts Board. But all this happened before then, and, although a great deal has been said as to that, it was really impossible to make anything of what occurred at the Congested Districts Board. Father O'Hara informed the Under-Secretary that there was trouble in his parish over the conduct of a constable, the Under-Secretary said, "Why don't you speak to his sergeant?" Father O'Hara replied that he had, but without effect, and asked the Under-Secretary to inquire into the matter. This the Under-Secretary did, and on communicating with the constabulary authorities was informed that an inquiry was progressing. If his hon. and learned friend had been a member of the Congested Districts Board what would he have done? He thought he would have done the same thing. He knew he should. Did the hon. and learned Member and the right hon. Member think that the Rev. Father O'Hara was the only person who complained to the Government? They must know that on one occasion or another innumerable letters come, and it was not a matter of surprise, in respect to the Royal Irish Constabulary, where they had a force of 9,000 men with their officers quartered throughout the country, that letters should come
  768
  and complaints be made. Did the hon. and learned Gentleman really suppose that nobody ever suggested they would sooner have this officer than that in this or that town? All that could be done in these matters was to sift a good deal of these letters aside as rubbish, but where a serious person sent a complaint and seemed to have something on his mind, then to send his complaint to the proper quarter. Sir Antony McDonnell asked him to say that Father O'Hara did speak to him at the Congested Districts Board, and he had stated that in reply to the hon. and learned Member. But for Sir Anthony McDonnell's request he would not have made the statement, which was quite irrelevant to the charge that Sir Anthony McDonnell had influenced the police authorities. He had not influenced them.
  MR. LONSDALEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman could fix the date on which Father O'Hara spoke to Sir Antony McDonnell.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he thought he could look up the papers.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he thought he had made out his case, and if the hon. and learned Gentleman did not think so he was afraid he never should be able to justify himself in his eyes.
  MR. WALLACEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would object to tell them in what it was that the second statement of Carr differed from the first, which led to this change of opinion.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the county inspector did not see the first statement. The first statement was given to the inspector who did duty for him. That first statement eventually went up to headquarters, and, as he said, the Inspector-General himself thought it too vague. It was said in the first statement that there were improper relations or something of that kind, and he must confess it would not have impressed him very much. What Carr said to County Inspector Brooke verbally no one could tell, but the impression he created was that immoral

  769
  intercourse was actually taking place and it was because of that impression that County Inspector Brooke took the view he did and the Inspector-General had the Court of inquiry. As he had said, that House was not competent to re-try a case tried before a judicial tribunal, still less could they re-try a case which was taken before a Court of inquiry, and where there was no verbatim report. How absurd it would be to say, on the newspaper reports, that these two officers had taken any action which they ought not to have taken? This witness was examined and cross-examined by them, and they came to the conclusion that he evidently believed that there were improper relations going on between these two.
  Now the charge came against him. Why, if that was the case, did he put Constable Anderson back? The right hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh came to him one day and said here was a man who had been tried twice, acquitted once, and who was now condemned, and he did not think he had been treated fairly. He replied that his right hon. friend must have been misled. Somewhat similar statements reached him from other quarters simultaneously. He looked into the case as he would have done if any serious person had come to him and said that any man was not being treated justly. What other course should he have taken? He remembered perfectly well it was in the month of February and he at once wrote to the Inspector-General on the subject. He went through the full evidence and noted that subsequent to the dismissal of the constable Miss Sweeny had submitted herself to an examination by two Dublin doctors who certified that she was a virgo intacta. This certificate was forwarded to the Inspector-General by the constable's solicitor, but as the Inspector-General conceived the offence to have been an attempt at seduction he replied that the new evidence did not alter his decision in dismissing the man. He was very unwilling, for the sake of discipline, to put the man back unless he carried the Inspector-General with him. He confessed that the himself, without hearing the examination and cross-examination of witnesses, should have been slow to believe, having regard to the fact that the constable was walking out with this young lady, that he was neces-
  770
  sarily attempting seduction, but those who heard all the evidence came to another conclusion, and it was not for him who had not heard it to suggest that they were wrong. He merely submitted the fact that there was this certificate to his legal advisers, and they convinced him that that threw back a perfectly fresh light on the case, and that if it had been before the Court it would have been the duty of whoever defended Anderson to ask the Court to consider all the evidence in the light of the certificate. It must be remembered that the alleged offence took place in the beginning of June, and that no notice was taken of the complaint for weeks, and when it was taken the man was exonerated by his superior officers, and he was left free to walk, as he did walk, with this young lady; and when months afterwards, there having been every opportunity, it was certified that there was nothing against the honour and virtue of this young lady, it did throw an entirely fresh light upon the case. A truthful witness might have seen what might have been a very compromising position, but it was not for them to look into the relations between two people who were engaged and were now married. He regretted very much for the honour of the girl, who was married honourably to the man, that this matter should have been debated, and he hoped the rest of their lives would not be troubled by anything of the kind. But if this was the best case that could be brought forward to show that Sir Antony Macdonnell was interfering illegitimately with the administration of departments in the government of Ireland, and was carrying out a policy that was not his policy, he did not think it was a very strong one. This was a case of police discipline dealt with first locally and then at the Head Quarters of the Royal Irish Constabulary upon which Sir Antony Mcdonnell exercised no influence.
  MR. SLOANsaid that if it had not been for the action of his hon. friend the Member for Mid-Armagh in approaching the Chief Secretary, it was beyond all doubt that Constable Anderson, would have been the victim of an avowed conspiracy, whether on the part

  771
  of the Rev. D. O'Hara or of his accomplices, would have suffered a gross injustice which would have been a disgrace to Irish administration. No matter how the Chief Secretary tried to wriggle out of the matter, the responsibility belonged to him. He could not accept the view of the right hon. Gentleman that the men in the Royal Irish Constabulary force had complete confidence in the powers above them. If such implicit confidence existed, there would not have been so many grave complaints against the disciplinary power. It was a scandal that one man in the South-West of Ireland, who happened to be a Protestant, should be left isolated to become the victim of an avowed conspiracy. In the case of the Rev. Dixon Patterson, who was unable to walk through the streets of Dublin without being insulted, the Chief Secretary, in reply to a Question, stated that no complaints had been made. On receiving a detailed statement, however, he had to admit the facts of the case, and said that the police were doing all in their power to do justice to the Protestants of Dublin. But on 26th July, that clergyman had to bring five or six youths before a magistrate, by whom they were fined, and yet that very magistrate declared the evidence given by the clergyman to be unwarrantable and utterly untrue. He submitted that that was not the way in which the law ought to be administered.
  The debate had shown that it was well worth while for the chairman of the Ulster Unionist Party to bring this case before the House, but he could not admit that the defence of the Castle by the Chief Secretary had been such as to entitle it to the confidence of Ulster Unionist Members. In view of the fact that the Press was teeming with letters from Protestants of all denominations complaining of the insults to which they were subjected when passing through the streets, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the advisability of instituting a further inquiry into the particular case which he had mentioned, and if he found there had been another miscarriage of justice or that base insinuations had emanated from the Catholic Association against
  772
  a Protestant clergyman, of calling upon the magistrate for a withdrawal of his statement.
  *MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid that this was a matter of the gravest importance to Irish Loyalists and to the country generally. Altogether apart from the merits of the particular case now under review, and judging by the other cases with which the Under-Secretary was connected there could be little doubt that Sir Antony McDonnell's sympathies lay entirely with his fellow-religionists and were as entirely against the interests of the Loyalists in the North. Four notorious cases in which Sir Antony McDonnell was concerned had been brought to the notice of the House, and with two of them the rev. Denis O'Hara was connected. The sending to Father Gleeson of the evidence of the prosecution in the case of the two constables in Connemara was a disgraceful act on the part of Sir Antony McDonnell. Father Gleeson was the man who had set the law in motion against these men, and why should the evidence be sent to him for consideration and annotation? No proceeding could be more extraordinary upon the part of a responsible executive officer than the sending of confidential documents to a parish priest who had no claim whatever to see them. It might be noticed that while the Chief Secretary refused to lay Papers on the Table of this House on account of their confidential and Departmental character, no such considerations weighed with the Under-Secretary when the person desired to see the Papers was a parish priest. The strength of the case of the Irish Loyalists lay in the fact that in all four of the instances put forward Sir Antony McDonnell had interfered in a manner that was utterly unprecedented. The Under-Secretary was a purely executive officer, whose sole duty was to carry out the orders of those above him, the person responsible being the Chief Secretary, who was supposed to issue the orders. Unfortunately, Sir Antony McDonnell, apparently with the consent of the Chief Secretary, had arrogated to himself the entire direction of Irish affairs. He thought all fair-minded men would agree that in the Anderson case Sir Antony

  773
  McDonnell interfered in a way he should not have done.
  AN IRISH MEMBER: The Chief Secretary, who is your leader, denies that.
  *MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid the Chief Secretary was not their leader at present, and in anything the right hon. Gentleman had said he had not to his mind furnished a proper refutation of the charges brought against Sir Antony McDonnell. The right hon. Gentleman had not been very clear with regard to the accusations really brought against Constable Anderson. At one time they were said to involve a charge of seduction, but that charge had never been tried.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid these Courts were appointed to advise the Inspector-General, and not really to try cases. Much inconvenience attached to the fact that these Courts, which were merely advisory boards, had a procedure so much like that of a true Court. That was a matter he intended to consider with the Inspector-General. It was far better that the decision should be given in the nature of a report rather than in the nature of a verdict. He believed the charge in this case was that of grossly immoral conduct.
  *MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid that whatever might have been the charge it was clearly proved at the trial that there had been no seduction, and the punishment of dismissal from the force after seventeen years service was absolutely unknown in such a case. He submitted that to inflict so heavy a punishment in a case of so doubtful a character was grossly unfair. That view was really upborne by the Chief Secretary, because no sooner did the right hon. Gentleman look into the case than he determined that a gross injustice had been perpetrated, and that the man must be reinstated in the force. The cases which had been brought forward revealed a state of things which could not be allowed to go on. If the Irish Administration was to be respected by that portion of the inhabitants of Ireland who lived in the North, this state of affairs must cease. Sir Antony Mc-
  774
  Donnell must see his way to occupying his position as Under-Secretary in the way in which it was intended to be occupied. That position was under the Chief Secretary, and he was intended to carry out the behests and the policy of the right hon. Gentleman, and not to initiate a policy which was distasteful and repugnant to a large section of the community. The feeling had been growing for some time that the policy of the Government was the policy of Sir Antony McDonnell, and that his was that of the Roman Catholic Association. He thought he might read a short extract from the Handbook of the Catholic Association which would enable the Committee to recognise that the system of approaching Sir Antony McDonnell by every petty parish priest throughout the country was simply carrying out the instructions of the association—
  "Let the reader conceive to himself an organisation, with an intelligent centre in the capital; with branches spreading everywhere through the country, and the facilities for easy and intimate communication between the guiding head of the body and the members of branches. Let him picture to himself ubiquitous activity and the constant flow of streams of information and helpful suggestion between headquarters and the provinces; let him conceive all this aided, when needful, by private personal despatches and the use of a telegraphic code for expedition and privacy, and he will have before his mind's eye some faint image of what a well planned organisation—alert, alive, and at work—might mean for Ireland."
  He need not read more. He thought that exactly described the state of affairs which existed at the present moment with respect to Sir Antony McDonnell in Ireland. He had read that extract in order to enable the Committee to judge whether his hon. friends and himself had used exaggerated language, or language which in any way was inconsistent with a reasonable view of the facts. He hoped that the Chief Secretary, in replying to the supplementary criticisms made sine, he spoke, would be able to give some promise that the state of things of which they complained would not continue.
  MR. GORDONsaid that nothing had carried such strong conviction to his mind in regard to the position his friends and himself had taken up in the Anderson case as the speech of the Chief Secretary. He would ask the question—Why did Father O'Hara go to

  775
  Sir Antony McDonnell? He knew perfectly well that the only way in which a constable could be got rid of was by an order issued by high authority. And so he went to the Under-Secretary. Why did he not go to the Inspector-General? In the interval between the report of the district inspector and its approval by the acting county inspector and Inspector-General, they would find that Father O'Hara discussed the matter with Sir Antony McDonnell. The Inspector-General, in his statement, did not say that Sir Antony McDonnell did not discuss the matter with him. If they did what light had they to discuss the character of a man who had nothing but good conduct to his credit, and who, when the charge was made against him, was acquitted of it. It was very easy to say that the whole inquiry was one of routine, but it should be remembered they were dealing with a man with seventeen years service in the force, and depriving him of his means of living. They gave the Chief Secretary every wish to cover up anything done by his subordinates, but they could not be blind to the obvious facts of the case. What was the result? This man was dealt with with all the rigour applied to cases which had been substantiated in Courts of justice. It was all very easy to say that this was merely routine in dealing with a disciplined force. But in this case the life of a man who had had an unblemished record for seventeen years was being dealt with. He was being deprived of his means of livelihood, apart altogether from what this poor girl had had to submit to. The moment the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had the facts before him he reinstated the man. He would give the right hon. Gentleman credit for the feeling which dictated to him a desire to cover up anything that had been done by his subordinates; but he ventured to say that there had never been any case, after the certificates of the doctors had been produced, against this man, and that Anderson was not guilty of any offence known to the law. He thought that the House ought to mark its strong sense of the wrong perpetrated in the case of Constable Anderson, by voting in favour of this Motion.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid that the debate had left an extremely disagreeable impression upon the minds of impartial men on both sides of the House. What were the facts of the case? A Protestant constable of good character became engaged to be married to a Roman Catholic young lady. From that point onwards a network of conspiracy was gradually drawn around him, supported by this priest O'Hara. Unfortunately, owing to the influence of Sir Antony McDonnell, the constable after long years of good service was dismissed from the force, and the young lady subjected to a stigma. But for the action of several of the Ulster Members this unfortunate man would have had a ruined life, and the unfortunate young lady would have remained under a wrong imputation. The Chief Secretary in his ingenious speech had appealed to Ulster Members for their continued confidence. Until he resisted the sinister influence that surrounded him in Dublin, he would forfeit the confidence of the Party that had always been in the past among- the most loyal and faithful supporters of the Unionist cause.
  *SIR J. FERGUSSONsaid he knew this case had excited much feeling in the minds of many people not only in Ireland but in England. The only reason why he intervened, and that for a moment, in an Irish debate was to do what he would like another man to do for him were he concerned in such a matter. It would take a great deal to make him believe that a Wean with such antecedents as the present Under-Secretary for Ireland would be guilty of such conduct as had been attributed to him, that he had been influenced by sectarian feeling, and that he had done other than simple justice in a case which was brought before him. A man who had obtained a place so high in the Indian service by his own talents, industry, and merit—and many had expected that he would rise even higher—a man of his immense administrative capacity, could not be rightly accused of partiality or injustice. It was not inappropriate that a distinguished official should be selected for high employment in Ireland who belonged to the religion of the great majority. He trusted

  777
  Sir Antony McDonnell would not think for a moment that he had in any degree laboured under the imputation before this House of any failure in his duties, which all who knew him knew him to be incapable of.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that so far as the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was concerned he really thought that Sir Antony McDonnell required no defence in this case at all. The Chief Secretary had entirely demolished the case made against him, and he thought if one could penetrate into Sir Antony McDonnell's breast and discover what his feeling was on this subject one would find that he was animated by supreme indifference to the attacks levelled against him in this debate. No impartial man who had listened to the speech of the Chief Secretary could have any doubt that these accusations, one and all, were absolutely without foundation. That being so, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Armagh might be surprised when he said that he intended to vote for his Motion. His reasons were entirely different from those of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. He complained that a certain respectable clergyman in the West of Ireland had been able to go and use an illegitimate influence with the Government to get a man prosecuted for a false charge. He (Mr. Redmond) would not go into that question at all, but his charge against the Chief Secretary was, that a competent tribunal having received sworn evidence, having considered this charge, having come to a decision unfavourable to the Man and having convicted him on it, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was able to go behind the Speaker's Chair into the Chief Secretary's room, to exercise an illegitimate influence on him, and to get the decision of a perfectly competent tribunal arrived at on sworn evidence overturned by the Executive action of the right hon. Gentleman acting alone.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Even though the man was innocent.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he would be very glad to believe this man innocent,
  778
  but he had no means of knowing. What ought to happen in this case was that there ought to be a full inquiry into the whole facts. It was a very remarkable thing that when this case began to be spoken of in the public Press, when in this country and in Ireland efforts were set on foot to arouse evil passions and religious bitterness over this question, and when there was a unanimous chorus demanding a full inquiry into all the facts of the case, as had been put forward with great vehemence by the Globe and the Daily Mail and the Irish Times; yet suddenly the demand had been allowed to drop, and not one of the hon. Gentlemen opposite made any demand for an inquiry.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: We do not object in the least, to an inquiry.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that he gathered the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would rather like an inquiry, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman and his friends would press on his friends the necessity for an inquiry into this case. The whole allegation was that there was something hidden in this matter, and that when the truth was known it would be something very disgraceful to Canon O'Hara, Sir Antony McDonnell, and the Catholic body in Ireland generally. If there was any real belief in the charge let it be put to the test. Let them have an inquiry into this matter. The charge was a very serious one, concerning practically the whole Catholic body in Ireland, a very respectable clergvman, and members of the Government. The most disgraceful charges had been made, and he asked for a public inquiry into those charges. He thought it was a pretty good test of the real measure of belief which hon. Gentlemen had had in the truth of their own accusations that they had not said a word about inquiry until he spoke, and then, after all, what they said was that they had no objection. Why had they dropped this demand for an inquiry? He declined altogether to go into the merits of this case. He confined himself entirely to this demand for an inquiry, because he believed that the Chief Secretary had been guilty of a most improper decision in overriding the decision of a

  779
  competent tribunal, taken on evidence on oath, and because he thought his refusal of an inquiry was nothing less than an outrage. For that reason he and his friends would vote against the Chief Secretary's salary that night, even if they had no other reason, and for these reasons they would vote in favour of the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Gentleman who, he hoped, before the debate ended, would rise and enforce his demand for an inquiry.
  *MR. LONSDALEsaid he had intervened in this discussion in order to call attention to a matter which closely concerned the county of Armagh; and which was also of great interest and importance to the whole of Ulster. He alluded to the strange method which the Irish Government had recently adopted of dealing with what was known as the extra police tax—that was to say, the charges which were levied by the Government upon local authorities for the occasional services of additional police. It would be within the knowledge of some members of the Committee that during the last few months the Government had remitted this extra police tax in the case of nine counties, while they had refused to make similar remissions in the case of other counties in the North of Ireland.
  MR. MACVEAGHasked whether the hon. Gentleman was in order in raising that question on the Vote for the Chief Secretary's salary, seeing that there was a separate Vote for the police?
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANruled that details could not be discussed, as there was a separate Vote for the police; but the hon. Gentleman was in order in referring to the policy of the Chief Secretary in the matter.
  *MR. LONSDALEsaid the counties in which remissions had been made were Cavan, Clare, Fermanagh, Galway, Leitrim, Roscommon, Sligo, Tipperary, and Waterford; they were all Nationalist counties, and the total amount which had been remitted was £7,400. While the Government had relieved those Nationalist districts from payment of this tax, they had refused to afford any relief
  780
  to the counties of Armagh, Down, and the city of Londonderry. He contended, therefore, that in this matter the Government had discriminated between Irish counties in such a way as to inflict serious injustice upon the loyal and law-abiding section of the Irish people. He did not assert that his right hon. friend the Chief Secretary had any intention of favouring one section at the expense of another, but he pointed out that the action of the Executive had unquestionably produced that effect arid that the right hon. Gentleman was responsible for what had been done. His charge against the Government was that their new policy of concession and conciliation was being carried out with an utter disregard of the just claims of Ulster. In their anxiety to be generous to their opponents the Government had forgotten to be just to their own supporters. This mistaken policy was producing the result which might have been expected. On the one hand, it had failed to reconcile hon. Members opposite and their supporters, who declared as vehemently as ever that no concession would, turn them from their agitation for Home Rule. On the other hand, this policy was estranging those whose loyalty to the Constitution had been the main barrier against separation.
  The people of Ulster were, to-day, smarting under a keen sense of wrong, and he warned his right hon. friend that there existed a widespread feeling of indignation against the present Irish administration. He would like to recall to the memory of his right hon. friend what he said in that House two years ago. At that time intimidation and boycotting were prevalent in many parts of Ireland, and it became necessary to take strong measures to put a stop to those criminal practices. His right hon. friend assured the House that his policy was not to kill Home Rule with kindness—but to "kill crime with common sense." One of the "common-sense" methods he adopted was to send additional police into disturbed districts and charge half the cost of those police against the counties concerned. That was a very sensible arrangement. It was in every way proper that those who called the tune should pay the piper.

  781
  Clearly the object of his right hon. friend was to teach the people that lawlessness was an expensive luxury. At the same time, the right hon. Gentleman wished to give those who were being oppressed confidence in the determination of the Government to protect them. But what really happened? The theory was excellent; but in practice it did not work. The payment of these charges for additional police was resisted. Sligo led the way. Sligo was the largest debtor. Last autumn the bill of the Government against Sligo for extra police amounted to £2,323. It was to be presumed that the extra police were not sent into Sligo without cause; and that the reason this county had more to pay than others was because there had been a greater amount of disorder in Sligo than in other places. But Sligo would not pay the Government demand. No doubt Sligo was strengthened in that determination by the example of the city of Limerick, which had not paid any tax for extra police for more than twenty years. The Sligo people found the Castle authorities in a yielding humour, and their surprise when they were told the charge would not be pressed could be imagined. The success of Sligo naturally encouraged other counties to agitate for similar treatment; and the Government surrendered their claims in case after case. These concessions, however, were confined to Nationalist counties in the South and West. The official reason given for this change of front was wholly unconvincing. In reply to a Question on the 24th March, the Chief Secretary stated that—
  "The claim made against Sligo was in respect of a reserve force of Constabulary, and when it subsequently transpired that the additional men had not been drawn from the reserve, which is located by statute at the depôt in Dublin—but had been drafted from other counties—the Government was advised that there was no legal power to recover the claim."
  That was to say—the Government having surrendered to clamour, now tried to shelter themselves behind a confession of incompetence. Somebody, it seemed, had blundered. The weak point about this explanation was that the "blunder" affected only Nationalist counties. In those counties, of course, the abandonment of the charges had naturally been hailed as a "victory for agitation,"
  782
  and that seemed to be the proper description to apply to it. But the Chief Secretary could not be surprised if the favour shown by Dublin Castle towards a section of the Irish people, at the expense of the taxpayer, should have led to an outcry from Ulster against the unfairness of the whole proceeding. The county council of Armagh had claimed that that county should be also relieved from payment of the extra police tax. Similar claims had been made by the counties of Tyrone and Down and Londonderry city. Their demands were the natural consequence of the concessions made to the Nationalist counties, and he submitted that they were based upon reason and justice. His constituents in Armagh rightly contended that the effect of the remission of £7,400 in the counties he had named was to place an additional burden upon them. This £7,400 had to be met out of the general taxation funds to which, of course, Armagh contributed its share. It was manifestly unjust that while this extra expense was placed upon Armagh, the county should still be expected to pay its own charges for special police. In the case of Armagh the amount immediately in dispute was not large, but the principle at stake was one of considerable importance. During the last ten years, Armagh had paid a total of £2,663 for extra police; and he maintained that the county had a good claim for the return of a part of this money, if not the whole of it, especially as some of it seemed to have been quite unnecessary expenditure. They based their claim for remission mainly upon the broad ground that there should be equality of treatment as between one county and another, in this and in all other matters. If these police charges were remitted in one case they should be remitted in all.
  He would doubtless be told that the case of Armagh was different from the case of Sligo and the other counties favoured by the Government, but he was unable to discover any difference which would justify a difference of treatment. To his mind the so-called dissimilarity was like the difference between Tweedledum and Tweedledee. It was absolutely undetectable by the eye of common sense. His right hon. friend had relied upon the fact that in Sligo the extra police were

  783
  not drawn from the Reserve Depot in -Dublin, but from other adjoining counties. That was also the case in Armagh. In that respect the two cases were absolutely similar, and it followed that if Sligo was relieved on that ground, Armagh had the right to claim similar treatment. To contend that a difference should be made because in one case the police were sent under one Act of Parliament, and in the other case under another Act of Parliament, seemed to him to be quite beside the point. The question still remained, why should police be sent into Sligo under one law and into Armagh under another? There seemed to be a perfect maze of Acts of Parliament dealing with this matter. The advisers of the Chief Secretary, by their own confession, lost themselves in this maze, and at last stumbled upon a reason for relieving nine Irish counties from the tax. He suggested that they should make a further exploration. They would then discover a flaw in the claim against Armagh and the other counties in the North of Ireland which would enable the charges to be remitted in those cases also. In any case, they who represented Ulster constituencies felt bound to protest as strongly as they could against what they regarded as the unfair treatment of Ulster. Thor were not only refused equality of treatment, but the effect of the action of the Government was to impose upon loyal and law-abiding people a double share of the cost of repressing disorder. That was most unfair. He submitted that they were justified in their protest; and should receive the support of all Unionists in this Committee in their demand that in this, and in all other respects, there should be equal treatment for all.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the charge now brought against the Government was that in order to carry out a policy of conciliation they had remitted taxes in Nationalist counties and refused to remit corresponding charges in counties returning Unionist Members. When the resolution was sent to him by the Unionist Members he dealt with that charge in a very long letter, and showed that it was impossible to collect the money in the particular places in which the tax had been remitted. The resolution was pub-
  784
  lished, but not his reply, which he thought was a pity. It was clear that Sir A. McDonnell was not concerned in this matter, as the mistake was made long before his appointment. When endeavouring to deal with disorder in Ireland he directed that extra police should be sent into the disturbed districts, and that the charge should be placed upon the counties concerned. That could be done only under two sets of Acts, and the extra police had to be really extra police, they had to be sent from the depot. Owing to a blunder, the police, instead of being sent from the depot at Dublin, were sent from an adjoining part of the same county. The debt was therefore irrecoverable, otherwise the people would have been paying for the police twice over. They would be paying for the police of the county, and obviously if the men were simply transferred from one part of the county to another they could not be charged again for the same men; they were not extra police at all.
  MR. SLOAN: Who discovered the blunder?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the blunder was discovered by his legal advisers, who went through the Acts of Parliament and told him that he could not recover the money. That being so, would anybody suggest that he ought to have gone on trying to recover the money illegally, with the absolute certitude that the Government would be brought before the High Court and cast in damages?
  *MR. LONSDALEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman contended that those conditions applied in all the nine counties in which the police tax had been remitted. The city of Limerick had paid no police tax for twenty years!
  MR. WYNDHAMsubmitted that when the Law Officers advised that a particular tax could not be recovered it was not the duty of the Government to go and break the law. He was not anxious to this £7,000. The money would have come in very handy, and he parted with it with the greatest regret after exercising the ingenuity of his legal advisers to the utmost to see whether he could not in some war collect it. It was unfortunately true that the disorder was

  785
  almost entirely, if not entirely, in counties returning Nationalist Members to Parliament, but his hon. friends could hardly suggest that they had a grievance, and that charges in their counties that were legal and could be collected should also be remitted. No Minister could adopt such a policy as that. A cardinal feature of the case had been left untouched, viz., that in a large number of Nationalist counties the police tax had not been remitted. The amount remitted was doubtless a large sum, but the Committee should bear in mind that it had not been remitted in Cork City, in Fermanagh, Kildare, King's county, Leitrim, Longford, Roscommon, Sligo, Tipperary, or Waterford. In those cases the amounts were legally requisitioned, and, as they could therefore be sued for, he was suing for them. There had been no disparity of treatment, and he really thought his hon. friends ought not to bring charges of unfair treatment against the Government upon such a slight foundation.
  With regard to the Anderson case, he thought some of those who had spoken after him had done scant justice to what he had placed before the Committee. He had proved successfully that Sir Antony McDonnell had nothing to say in the matter at all. His right hon. and gallant friend had said lie took a pessimistic view of his Irish administration because of the appointments that he had made. But of the three appointments to which his right hon. and gallant friend referred, one was made before he took office. With reference to Mr. Finucane he was glad to hear no suggestion from his right hon. and gallant friend that the appointment was not a proper one. It was true that he recommended the appointment of Sir Antony McDonnell. He was proud of having made that recommendation. Before he knew there was likely to be a vacancy in the Under-Secretaryship he had met Sir Antony McDonnell, and from what he heard from Lord Lansdowne at the time, and from Lord Curzon since, and from what he knew of him himself, he was convinced that there was no public servant who less deserved to be attacked as Sir Antony McDonnell had been
  786
  attacked that afternoon. Was it not distressing that these charges should be male against a public servant who had covered himself with such distinction in India, who before being appointed to this office was summoned to be a Privy Councillor, and who was admitted to the Privy Council at the same time as himself. Was he to be silent when charges were made against that eminent servant of the King and of the Empire—charges for which there was no justification, and which rested upon no foundation of any kind at all?
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Armagh brought forward another matter. In Ireland they had from time to time a good deal of trouble about the hanging out of flags and bunting at various celebrations. This was familiar to anyone who knew anything of Irish life. Because of these difficulties the law said that flags were not to be hung out by the owners of licensed promises. In practice, and he believed legally, the law had been interpreted to mean that Party emblems were not to be hung up. This, he believed, was sound law, and he was sure it was sound sense; otherwise they would have to pull down the Royal Standard or the Union Jack in order to prevent the law being broken. The police were warned not to pull down Union Jacks or flags of that kind but to report any doubtful point to their authority before acting. A complaint was made by the Rev. Mr. Gleeson that two policemen had objected to the display of flags at a public-house. That complaint was sent without comment to the Inspector-General, and he sent it down to the district inspector there. The district inspector made a mistake. Instead of sending at once for the men, and asking why they did not go to him for instructions, he went to all the publicans, and having seen all of them, he found that one only had been addressed by these two constables. The error, and the only error, was that, without seeing the policemen, the district inspector reported that, in his opinion, it was imprudent to discuss the matter at all. The county inspector passed that on, and endorsed it to the Inspector-General. This was the whole case. The

  787
  right hon. Gentleman asked why Sir A. McDonnell came in. He came in because the Rev. William Gleeson persisted in his complaint, and kept on writing, and saying that he had been badly used because no notice had been taken of the complaint. Sir A. McDonnell then answered and stated very fully what had been done; and he himself could not say that was any mistake. It might be said that it was better not to answer letters. This would make their work a great deal easier than it was. But, in his opinion, it was the duty of a Government Department to send detailed replies to show why the Government had not taken certain action which they were asked to take. The acknowledgement of correspondence was not a fault that should be charged against a public administrator.
  MR. HEMPHILLsaid he quite agreed with what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, but it was very hard indeed that a public servant in the position of Sir Antony Mcdonnell should be subjected to the charge which had been stated so broadly by some hon. and right hon. Members. It occurred to him that there should be an inquiry into the whole of this case. He thought that what had taken place reflected not only on the character of the individual, but also more or less on the administration of the law in Ireland. He did not offer any opinion one way or another upon the conduct of Constable Anderson, but they had the fact that he was condemned by a Court of inquiry and that he was dismissed. It was a very strong measure for the Chief Secretary, ex proprio motu, after a conference with the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Armagh, to reverse that decision. He thought that circumstance alone, and the fact that the character of the Under-Secretary had been more or less impeached in a public manner, required that there should be an inquiry into the circumstances of the whole case, and on that ground he would support the Motion of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman.
  Sun JAMES HASLETTsaid he thought this debate had answered one very good purpose. He did not question in any degree the
  788
  Chief Secretary's answer with regard to the case of Constable Anderson. A charge had been made that a minister of religion had intervened and asked witnesses what they were going to say, if he did not actually coach them. He did not say that in any reproachful sense, but the clergyman had tried to find out what evidence the witnesses were going to give before the tribunal that tried the case. That showed that whatever fresh inquiries they might have, there must be some different form of Court. It was utterly unsatisfactory that these semi-trials should be held. He held that there must be some radical change in connection with the police administration of Ireland, and that they must have some thoroughly judicial form of proceeding under which a man brought forward on a charge would be treated in a judicial manner.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  SUPPLY [19th ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1904–5.

  CLASS IV.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,300, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, for a Grant in Aid of the Expenses of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland."
  MR. CLANCYsaid, the administration of the Queen's Colleges was a subject in which Catholics of all classes in Ireland took the deepest interest,

  789
  and as to which they had expressed their opinions in the most emphatic terms. The fact was that the majority of the Catholic youth of Ireland were being deprived of a University education and that was a most vital matter for the country. To condemn the whole Catholic youth of the nation to such a condition of things was to practically condemn the nation itself, and it must lead to stagnation and decay in the field of intellectual and industrial enterprise. He wanted to draw on the actual facts regarding the condition of Irish University education. There were four University institutions—Trinity College, Dublin; Queen's College, Belfast; Queen's College, Galway, and Queen's College, Cork—which were endowed out of public funds. There was, however, another institution which was not endowed, except indirectly, and that only to a small extent, something over £4,000. He meant the University College, Dublin. The figures, which anyone could ascertain for themselves, showing the intellectual results were very remarkable. They showed that University College, Dublin, although endowed to the small extent he had mentioned, was a long way ahead of the Queen's Colleges, which were much more richly endowed. It had been the fashion of some persons to criticise this institution and to make sarcastic and abusive remarks about the alleged low standard of education adopted there. These results, however, which extended for ten years, from 1893 to 1903, ought to put to shame the persons who made such remarks. There was an institution which laboured under many disadvantages actually beating in fair and open competition the institutions munificently endowed by the State.
  It was admitted on all hands that these three Queen's Colleges were not attended by such a number of Catholics as might be expected to be in attendance if they were institutions which coud be attended by Catholics without violating their patriotic convictions. The few score Catholics who attended them represented but a tithe of those students who might be expected to bring credit to the institutions if they were carried on under any system of which they could approve. What was
  790
  their demand? Some years ago there was no doubt the demand of the Catholics of Ireland was for a Catholic University pure and simple in the strictest sense. If the Catholics of Ireland chose to demand such a University, open only to Catholics bound by the strictest tests, they would be quite within their rights. But some years ago the Irish Catholic Bishops, and practically the whole Catholic body in Ireland, altered their demand and expressed their readiness to submit to the principle involved in the abolition of the Test Act of 1871. The University which would please them would be one to which persons of all denominations would be welcome, and the prizes of which would be open to men belonging to every religion on the face of the earth if they were able to obtain them. In 1897 and 1898 the Prime Minister expressed his satisfaction with the frank and straightforward answers of the Bishops. He complained that no effort had been made to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission. As usual, the thing had been put on the shelf. In regard to the plan suggested by Lord Dunraven, newspapers in Ireland like the Irish Times, which kept its eye on the Ministerial Bench and shaped its action on almost every subject accordingly, on the day on which it published Lord Dunraven's letter, published also an article approving of the scheme, and saving it did not see why everybody should not adopt this plan. He had there a telegram from the Archbishop of Dublin, which he had better read. It was—
  "You may state on my authority that the Bishops would have accepted either the settlement known as the Dunraven scheme or that recommended by the Royal Commission."
  That statement, made by a leading member of the hierarchy in Ireland, and a distinguished writer, cleared away any excuses from the path of the Government if they meant business. But did they mean business? There was nothing now to prevent them from taking action save their own unwillingness to do anything.
  By whom was this demand opposed? First of all, by the Irish Orangemen, some English Nonconformists, who objected to all religion in teaching institutions, and a section of English

  791
  Churchmen, who desired to have, denominational education for themselves. The Orangemen were not to be confounded with the Protestants of Ireland, who were in favour of the demand for a University. The Orangemen were opposed to it because they remained what Edmund Burke and Moore had described them long ago. The argument of these poeple—whose only excuse was that they did not understand what they were talking about—was put in this way, "Trinity College and the Queen's Colleges are open to Catholics. We are satisfied, therefore you must be satisfied." The doctrine implied by that argument was the doctrine of the Penal Laws, and would justify the old policy of extermination. Lord Justice FitzGibbon, a distinguished Irish Protestant, had said, in reply to it—
  "Of course it may be said, and it is true, that the competition is equally open to everybody in Trinity College, and therefore that equality so far exists. I admit that, but I humbly object to become the judge of another man's conscience. If these people cannot conscientiously take what is open to them I consider their conscience has as good a right to be consulted as my own."
  That was the attitude of the ordinary Protestant in Ireland, as distinguished from the Orangemen. But there were other arguments. The first was that the doctrine of the Penal Laws had been long since abandoned by the State, and that with it ought to disappear these restrictions on the intellectual advancement of the people of Ireland. Then, besides, the Orangemen were not the only people who paid taxes in Ireland, and had no night to veto the spending of money for a national purpose of which they did not happen to approve. The present English Solicitor-General was in favour of the Irish demand; the late Mr. Lecky had been in favour of it, and in fact, as he had said, the Irish Protestants, as distinguished from the Orangemen, were in favour of it. What of the English Parties who were opposed to it. There were some Radicals in that position but Lord Spencer and, in fact, every ex-Lord-Lieutenant and Chief Secretary living was in favour of it. The Radicals who objected put themselves in an illogical position, because they voted for the Home Rule Bill of 1893, which gave the power to set up a
  792
  University in Ireland for Catholics. A strong light was cast on the attitude of the Conservatives who objected to the Act. They demanded denominational education for England and Wales, and yet opposed the granting of an Irish University for Catholics. He challenged the right hon. Gentleman to say that that was not practically his judgment. If that were so was it not trifling with the Roman Catholic Bishops and with the hon. Members on that side of the House, and even trifling with the House itself, to put forth an expression of feeling as if he were going to do something for University education in Ireland, and then to put it out of sight altogether. He begged to move the reduction of the Vote by £100.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,200, be granted for the said service."—(Mr. Clancy.)
  *MR. GORDONsaid he had listened with great care and attention to the speech made by the hon. Gentleman opposite, who was himself a graduate of the old Queen's University, and he was greatly pleased that the hon. Gentleman did not make any direct attack on the Queen's Colleges. The hon. Gentleman began by giving the Committee a large number of figures, the burden of which was to prove that the colleges in Ireland least endowed produced the greatest number of successful students. What he wanted to know was, what was the real force of the complaint of the hon. Gentleman and his friends? Formerly their demand was for a Roman Catholic University, but he was glad to say that for tide last few years the Roman Catholic hierachy had given that up. If the Chief Secretary and the Government had the courage to resist the demands of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, he was sure that within a reasonable limit of time the Roman Catholic hierarchy and the hon. Members who represented the Roman Catholic population would find it would be proper and wise to abandon altogether all idea of separate denominational colleges. What he wanted was that what every Irishman, whatever religion he professed, and however he might differ in his political views from

  793
  other Irishmen, wanted was the best form of University education for their country, and that everything should be done by education to advance the material and social prosperity of the country. Some hon. Members who did not stay in their own country to get their education had different ideas. He did not know where they got those ideas from; but at all events their foreign education did not seem to have improved them. The position of affairs in Ireland with reference to University education did not seem to him to be one with which any fair-minded man could quarrel on the ground of religious inequality. The doors of Trinity were open to any member of the community who chose to go there; and whatever his religion he would be under no disability whatever. He might acquire the highest honours and get a fellowship without in any way interfering with his religion. He knew that a most distinguished Roman Catholic had, the other day, acquired a fellowship in Trinity. It might be his misfortune, or it might be because he was a Protestant, that he took a sensible view of the situation; but at the present moment no one had any right to say that he was debarred from getting a good sound University education in Trinity. He did not want to be misunderstood. He thought that formerly Trinity was managed on far too narrow lines, and that that had much to answer for in regard to the present position of University education in Ireland. He had heard the Prime Minister speak on this question on several occasions, and, so far as he could gather the opinions of the right hon. Gentleman, he regarded the question of giving a Roman Catholic University to Ireland as a matter of expediency; and he thought that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary was of the same opinion. But he submitted that the argument of expediency ought not to prevail or induce them to do what they believed would not be in the best interests of University education in Ireland.
  To go away from Trinity College, and take the comparison between the Queen's Colleges and the Catholic colleges in Ireland, the Protestants got nothing in this matter that was not equally available for Roman Catholics. The Queen's Colleges were perfectly free and open to all. That position was accepted at first by the
  794
  Roman Catholic hierarchy, and it was a very curious thing that a distinguished Roman Catholic Prelate was in favour of a mixed education at the time when these Queen's Colleges were founded with the idea of giving no religious denomination any advantage whatever. That was acquieseed in for many years, but the truth was that the Roman Catholic hierarchy had banned the Queen's Colleges because they found that they could not get control of them, and consequently they were denounced as godless colleges. The question of faith and morals was raised to give them the right to shut the doors of these institutions to the Roman Catholic youth of Ireland. He contended that the only safety for the education of the people of Ireland was to leave the Universities open to the youth of all denominations, and to allow no religious denomination as such to interfere with the teaching. Reference had been made to the Commission appointed to inquire into the University education of Ireland. He must say that the idea of appointing a Commission of Inquiry into University education in Ireland and leaving out Trinity, was to leave the part of Hamlet out of the play. He maintained that if that Commission was to make a useful investigation into the University question in Ireland, it ought to have had Trinity College and every other educational institution in the country within its control. The Report of that Commission could, therefore, not be accepted as a basis for any future legislation.
  Reference had been made to the letter of Lord Dunraven; but of all the schemes suggested for a University in Ireland that was the worst. It was said that they might hive three colleges absolutely free and open to every student in Ireland, and one which was to be purely a denominational college. So far is he could gather each of the four colleges was to have the power of conferring pass degrees and a body of five or six gentlemen were to have the power of conferring honours degrees. They did not want that. They ought to have a high standard of University education and degrees conferred, of which the youth of he country would not be ashamed when they came to face the world. His point

  795
  was that Irishmen did not want to see four colleges set up competing in the manufacture of degrees. These would be just like some of the degrees conferred by American colleges which nobody in this country valued to the slightest extent. Education for the youth of Ireland should be based on absolutely unsectarian and undenominational principles, and the best sources of education should be thrown open to all, without any attempt to teach any form of religious dogma. He believed that that was the opinion, not only of the intelligent Protestants in Ireland, but of a very considerable section of the intelligent Roman Catholics. There was no question of bigotry about this matter at all. Of course it was said that three-fourths of the people of Ireland were Catholics, and only one-fourth Protestants; but they must take into account the number of people who were likely to take advantage of a University education. He was sure that, even taking the numbers as stated, there would be many more Protestants who would take advantage of a University education than Roman Catholics. What was wanted in Ireland was a better system of higher education below the University standard but above the ordinary school level, and by such a system he believed more good would be done to the youth of the country than could be achieved by the creation of half a dozen Universities.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid the reason Catholics did not attend the Queen's Colleges was the same as that which prevented them from entering Protestant churches, viz., they did not believe it to be consonant with their faith and their principles. Speaking as a Protestant, he thought Catholics were entitled to the highest credit when they rejected educational advantages for conscience sake. This question of Catholic education was one of the saddest that could be brought before Parliament. It plainly showed the impotence of the Irish Party in constitutional agitation. The Chief Secretary and the Prime Minister were in favour of the Catholic claim, but, although they were in power, they refused to give Catholics that which they required, simply because a knot of reactionary Ulster Members declined to
  796
  allow it. He was as good a Protestant as any Ulsterman, but he thanked God he was not a political Protestant, and there was an immense difference between a political Protestant and an Irish Protestant Christian. He knew more about the feelings and sentiments of the Irish Protestant population than hon. Members opposite, and he believed that the vast majority would be very slow indeed to refuse to Catholics, in consonance with their conscientious beliefs, those educational benefits which they themselves were able to receive. By the Vote now under discussion £15,000 was to be voted for the education of thirty students in Queen's College, Cork. There were only thirty students in honours, and there was a foundation in Arts alone of £12,000 a year. That sum of £12,000 would be spent equally advantageously if it were thrown into the River Thames. It was simply an abandoned and a profligate waste of public money. The president of the college, Sir Rowland Blennerhassett, never attended to his duties there, and he had not himself a University degree. What was more, he was appointed to this post, not for any educational qualifications, but in return for his services as the paymaster of Pigott in The Times case. St. Mary's College, an unendowed Catholic college, was able to secure twenty-six first classes at the last University examination, whereas Queen's College had only one. It was indeed a sham, and it was absurd even in its iniquity. The professor of law had three pupils, and there were four scholarships and two exhibitions. The professors of logic, metaphysics, and political economy had no pupils at all. The professor of Greek had three pupils and the professor of Latin four pupils. These professorships were given to political adherents. The sum of £15,000 was to be voted for a college which was of no use whatever to Ireland from an educational point of view. Whilst this was being done, the most miserable stipend was refused to a Catholic University. The object of those who took up this position was to keep all the good things in Ireland for themselves, and to prevent Catholics having a fair chance in life. This was a shocking condition of things. It awakened his keenest indignation as a Protestant. How much more,

  797
  then, were he a Catholic would he feel this treatment? How could he endure it? The results of the intermediate examinations showed that there was a large class of Catholic youth who could form a distinctly University class. University education ought not to be the exclusive possession of the rich. In Scotland and England it was open to every boy, however poor and humble, provided he had the ability, to secure University education. The extension of such a system to Catholic Ireland would result in great advantages, and it could be done but for the opposition of Irish political Protestants. He had carefully refrained from attacking Trinity College, for which foundation he had the greatest possible respect, but in conclusion he might remind the Committee that every acre belonging to Trinity College was wrested from Catholic hands and Catholic educational purposes.
  COLONEL NOLANsaid his county was the second largest in Ireland but he certainly did not know half a dozen Catholic residents therein who would not like to see a Catholic University established. He could safely assert that in the whole of Ireland one could not find 100 Catholic families who would not favour such an institution. Farther, they would find plenty of Protestants who would like to see Catholics have the advantage of a University. He asked the House to give full and due weight to what had been said from a Protestant point of view. He would like to know how many hon. Gentlemen opposite would not insist that in the Universities there should be a system of regular religious teaching. Everyone knew that both Oxford and Cambridge turned out very good Protestants and that in those Universities the Catholics would have a better chance because they would be protected by the conscience clause. One hundred and fifty years ago it was not customary to allow a schoolmaster to teach Catholics either reading or writing, but that rule had gradually been relaxed until Catholics were allowed to go in a very subordinate position to Trinity College. It was true that a few had changed their religion for the sake of emolument. If children were sent to Trinity College they were not
  798
  asked to change their religion, but their faith was weakened because most of the Fellowships were held by Protestants, and everyone knew what that influence meant. He certainly preferred the system of Trinity to that of the Queen's Colleges because at the latter colleges there was no religion. Hon. Gentlemen opposite took precious good care to send their sons to Eton, Harrow, or Rugby, and afterwards to a religious University. Why should Catholics not be allowed to do the same. He knew that this meant £50,000 a year, bat that ought to make no difference. Hon. Members opposite had told them they should be content with secondary education, but he asserted that it was impossible to get good secondary education without a University. They wanted good religious secondary education. In England a University education was a hall-mark, and it was time to give Ireland a similar stamp. Good statesmanship would give to Ireland everything that was given to this country. They had University education in England and Scotland and why not give it to Ireland. Catholics would not accept education unless it was religious. They did not want to exclude Protestants from a Catholic University, because a Protestant would be in exactly the same position as a Catholic was at the present time in Trinity College. They wanted in Ireland the same system which they had at Oxford and Cambridge, but they insisted upon having a Catholic atmosphere. If Catholics would only insist upon it they would get their University, but they would have to insist firmly, and he hoped that during the present recess something would be done to show the Government that Ireland was in earnest in this matter.
  MR. WOLFFsaid he was quite willing to give the Catholics all that, in his humble opinion, they were fairly entitled to. But with all that desire he could not see that they were in any way entitled to a Roman Catholic University for themselves. The Roman Catholic hierarchy would not be satisfied unless they had entire religious control of the students either in the college or the University.
  MR. CLANCY: They say the reverse.
  MR. WOLFFsaid that might be so, but they could not bind another hierarchy. He repeated that what the Bishops wanted was to have the full control and management of the students, and what ever safeguards they might introduce in the way of laymen on the board of management and in other directions would fail to secure their approval. If the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Ireland would forego their demand to have the sole control and management of this institution the difficulty would be settled at once. There was only one Catholic University in the world in which the management was in the hands of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and in every other State, in Germany, France, and Italy, Universities were non-sectarian.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLINsaid the hon. Member was mistaken. In the city of Quebec there was another instance in the Catholic University established under the Charter granted by Her Majesty Queen Victoria.
  MR. WOLFFsaid he was not aware that Quebec and Montreal were on the Continent of Europe.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLINsaid the hon. Member stated "in every other State."
  MR WOLFFasked why. If the Catholic hierarchy were satisfied in the places he had mentioned, could they not be satisfied in Ireland. If they would forego their demand to have the sole control and management the thing would be settled at once, and there was no reason why they should not make use of the Queen's Colleges. It was the exclusiveness of the Roman Catholic hierarchy which prevented any arrangement being made. That exclusiveness had done more than anything else to keep Parties asunder in Ireland. If Roman Catholic students were allowed to mix with the Protestant students in other institutions much would be done to remove the antagonism that existed.
  MR. HEMPHILLsaid he did not intend to give a silent vote upon this question. He desired to express his unequivocal support to the granting of a University in which his Catholic fellow-
  800
  subjects could obtain an adequate education. The very argument of the hon. Member for Belfast that some forty-five years ago there was not so much feeling between Catholics and Protestants as there was at the present time was an argument which showed that so far from the two religions getting reconciled it had become more necessary than ever that an opportunity should be afforded to their Catholic brethren of obtaining a proper education. The argument of the hon. Member for South Londonderry was practically to the effect that no matter how just or expedient the claim for a Catholic University in which the Catholics of Ireland might be educated might be, they ought not to grant this demand because if they only held out long enough in the House of Commons the Catholics of Ireland would be starved into surrendering their claim. That was not a worthy argument. Three-fourths of the population of Ireland were devoted Roman Catholics, and they could not indulge in such ideals in regard to education as the hon. and learned Member for South Londonderry. They might say, "Why not let the lion and the lamb lie down together, and why should there be any difficulty aboutt his question"? In these matters they must have regard to human nature, and they must recollect that the very peculiarities of these people were the outcome of the manner in which their country had been treated in bygone centuries. Up to within the last thirty years every emolument in Ireland was confined strictly to Protestants. As they were all aware, Ireland was a very poor country. It was admitted that in order to enable Ireland to compete with other nations it was essential that every boy in Ireland should be better equipped in regard to education, both technical and scientific, and in every other branch. Trinity College had old traditions and an old system, but it was impossible for a very poor boy to go to Trinity College, because the expense rendered it impossible. Trinity College was one of the most richly endowed Universities in the world.
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir EDWARD CARSON,): Does the hon. Member know the amount of its endowments?
  MR. HEMPHILLsaid he understood that it was about £30,000 a year.
  SIR EDWARD CARSON: And does the right hon. Member call that the richest in the world?
  MR. HEMPHILLsaid that he did when he remembered that another great college in Ireland only received about £5,000 a year. In the year 1885 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol promised that next year he would bring in a Bill establishing a University in Ireland. In 1889 the present Prime Minister promised them a scheme by which the wants of Catholics in Ireland in regard to education would be met. In 1901 the senate of the Royal University passed a resolution admitting its own failure after a twenty years trial, and they called for a Royal Commission to inquire into the subject. That Commission found that the Royal University was a failure, and reported in favour of further educational facilities being given to Ireland. He thought that Report of the Royal Commission disposed of the idea that the Royal University could be used as an argument against conceding what his hon. friends below the Gangway had so urgently demanded. This was not a Party question, for they all wished to see their fellow-creatures raised to as high a level as possible in this miserable world, and without education it was impossible to do this. They knew that Catholics were capable of the utmost development educationally. A good many of the errors of the Irish people might be traced to poverty, and their ignorance was a growth of this poverty. All they wanted in Ireland was a University built up on modest lines like the Scotch Universities and those on the Continent of Europe, which enabled every peasant's son, if he felt so inclined, to go and equip himself with a degree. They wanted a University in which the masses of the Irish people could obtain an adequate University education. What did the Irish Bishops themselves say in 1896. They declared that all they wanted was equality and that the question might be settled by the establishment of a distinct Catholic college or a University. Over and over again since that time the Bishops had declared that all they wanted was educational equality.
  802
  He felt strongly upon this question, because he took an interest in the wellbeing of the rising generation in Ireland. He was satisfied that unless some further opportunity was afforded to Ireland of improving the general education of her people by means of a Catholic University all other forms of education would be more or less in vain, and Ireland would remain seething in discontent and under miserable conditions.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the right hon. and learned Member for North Tyrone ended his speech by an eloquent aspiration for some system of education which would really give to all classes in Ireland what was required in order that they should be properly educated, waiving on one side or the other this or that ultra-sectarian view. He was with him in that aspiration. But in the beginning of his speech he stated that he would give unequivocal support to a Catholic University. That might be what he desired, but in stating that and in adding nothing to it—
  MR. HEMPHILLmade a remark which was not audible in the gallery.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that was a distinction which ought always to be brought out sharply in any debate on the subject, and unless it was brought out those who spoke of a Catholic University instead of, say, a University for Catholics, failed to make clear what a great number of people in this country failed to see, namely, what was requested by many Irishmen in respect of University education. He dared say that a great many Irishmen desired a Catholic University. He had taken pains to study the subject and unless he was altogether in error, he took it that the real request made by the majority of Irishmen was that there should be started in Ireland a college in the position which would have been reached if, like Trinity College or the colleges of Oxford and Cambridge, it had begun as a denominational institution with tests, and had abandoned those tests and gone on without them until it had become a college the traditions of which would be coloured by the faith of the majority using it. That surely was a wholly different thing from a demand

  803
  for a State-endowed Catholic University under clerical control, and it was a request which he had always thought very reasonable. When the hon. Member for Belfast said that if the hierarchy gave up their claim he would support the endeavour of his Catholic fellow-countrymen to obtain better University Education he was delighted, but the hon. Member went on to point out that the only wav of having a University free from ecclesiastical control was by accepting the existing institutions as being amply sufficient. They would never agree, he was afraid, in that matter. Those in this country who were in favour of denominational education held that it was reasonable that religion should be taken into account in these matters provided that there was neither clerical control nor religious test; but it was not the opinion of the hon. Member for Belfast and other Members in this House.
  He had been led into contributing a few words to this academic debate but he had no idea that the whole question of University education was going to be raised. The Vote to-night was for £1,600 a year to each of the Queen's Colleges. He was always ready to give his views when they were asked for, but his views were not asked for now. Hon. Members always demanded in these debates a statement of the Government's position, and in that connection he would ask the Committee to consider the occasion. Hon. Members accused the Government of trifling with this question. Hon. Members opposite had raised the question twice during the session, once on 3rd August, after such Bills as the Port of London Bill and the Scotch Education Bill had been thrown overboard, and once on 3rd February on the Address, when it was impossible for any Member to vote for an Amendment without voting against the Government. Who was trifling with the question? [ANATIONALIST MEMBER: The Chief Secretary.] During the session the Irish Party had joined in every attempt to turn out the Government; and if they so conducted their political opposition as to make it impossible for the Government to deal with this question, the labourers question, or any other Irish question, then the whole blame did not rest with the Government. He wanted hon. Members for Ireland to think this out. [A
  804
  NATIONALIST MEMBER: We want you out.] He did not catch from what quarter that remark came. He had been looking up the speeches of Chief Secretaries and Prime Ministers upon this matter, and he found oddly enough that they were almost always given at the very tail end of a session.
  MR. CLANCY: And promises always given for next session.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he found that the next session began with an attempt on the part of the Irish Party, in conjunction with the Liberal Party, to turn out the Government. A statement was made on this subject by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol in 1885. He stated that this was a matter that deserved attention. He himself agreed with him.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid there was a pledge given in August, 1889, by the Prime Minister, who was then the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in regard to this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol gave the classic pledge and stated that this question should be approached with the hope of doing something to make University education more general and widespread in Ireland, and he added—
  "If it should be our lot to hold office next year we hope to make some proposal which will deal in a satisfactory way with this moot important matter."
  The Government was turned out within three days of the meeting of Parliament. When he considered the treatment meted out to the Labourers Bill he could not help anticipating that hon. Members would, as they did this year, make a determined attempt on the Address to turn the Government out. If that were so, why were the views of any Minister in respect to this matter to be treated in a totally different way from the views held by the Cabinet on, say, Scotch Education? Where was the prior and irrefutable claim that this should be dealt with immediately and at all costs and all hazards. It was impossible to deal with political questions in a repretentative assembly on those lines. There

  805
  must be some attempt to get the question discussed udder conditions which would permit of all arguments being put forward. The wisest words were used by Lord Salisbury, who, speaking in 1879, said that the difficulties of this question were very great and had hitherto defied solution, but he did not say that a solution was impossible. If he himself said all that he felt on the question he should be told by hon. Members opposite that he was giving pledges which he intended to break, and he would not lay himself open to that charge. In season he would advocate his views as boldly as any man. He thought it was the one gap in the Unionist position that they had not hit on a plan to fulfil the Unionist profession that they would do for Ireland all that any Home Rule Parliament might legitimately do, and when the time came he would do his best to convince any of his hon. friends who might differ from him in regard to this matter. For his part, he could not believe that Lord Salisbury, the right hon. Member for West Bristol, the Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Thanet, whose illness they all deplored, every Chief Secretary and every responsible person who had been brought face to face with this problem, had been mesmerised and deluded by the atmospheric influences on the other side of the Channel.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that if anything was wanted to convince the Irish people that the Chief Secretary was not in reality what he was represented to be, a sincere friend to the settlement of the University question, it was the speech to which the House had just listened. If he might use the phrase without any breach of Parliamentary order, he would say that it was an impudent speech. The right hon. Gentleman had accused hon. Members from Ireland of deliberately bringing on the discussion at a time when it was impossible for the subject to be adequately or seriously discussed. It would perhaps surprise Members of the House to know that personally, and through the ordinary channels, he had urged upon the right hon. Gentleman that there should be a discussion of this question, not at a nine o'clock sitting, but at the
  806
  commencement of the sitting of the House. The question had been put on one side in order that an altogether fruitless and ridiculous discussion should take place on the treatment of Constable Anderson. The right hon. Gentleman at the commencement of the session was questioned on this matter, and to the amazement of many Members of the House, certainly to the amazement of the Irish Party, he stated that not only was the Government not going to introduce legislation on the subject, but that in his view the Government ought not to legislate on it; although, as he had repeated again to-night, every Governor of Ireland who had been in the position of Lord-Lieutenant or Chief Secretary, everybody, from whatever Party drawn, who had been connected with the Government of Ireland for many years past, was a declared supporter of this policy. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman to-night was an unsatisfactory and an impudent speech. The right hon. Gentleman said that if they had asked a day for the discussion of the subject it would have been given to them. He, who opened the session by declaring that the Government would not legislate, said that they ought to have asked a day for the discussion of an academic Motion on which the Government and their supporters could vote with a free hand, knowing that there was no intention of following it up by legislation. For himself, he would refuse to lend himself to such a transparent dodge as that, and to whitewash the Government for having broken all their pledges.
  The classic pledge was not that which the right hon. Gentleman had referred to, but the one made in 1889 when the present Prime Minister said that legislation upon the question was necessary, and would be introduced, and when he was asked by Mr. Parnell for something more definite and if he would say that the Bill would be the first measure introduced next session, the Prime Minister added that it would be impossible to state beforehand the precise order in which the Government measures would be introduced. That was an absolute pledge on the part of the Government that they would legislate on the question. They had been in

  807
  office for he did not know how many years, and they had made no effort to legislate. All the time they had been endeavouring to hoodwink public opinion in Ireland, and the public opinion of Irishmen in this country. The right hon. Gentleman had said nothing at all about the Dunraven letter or about the negotiations going on in Dublin last autumn and winter, when it was represented to them on behalf of the Government that this scheme which had been put forward was a scheme which had the consent of the Government. He had heard it stated that it was a mere matter of chance that Lord Dunraven's name was put to that letter at all, and that it was doubtful whether the name of the right hon. Gentleman himself would not be appended. That letter had been put forward by the Government, and was so represented to them and to the hierarchy.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I emphatically contradict that statement. I am not at all ashamed to say that I thought it my duty to see a number of Presbyterians and members of Trinity College, and to see the two Archbishops. I asked them to state their views in black and white, as I thought it was my duty to know their views. But I did not pledge myself or the Government.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that was the way in which the right hon. Gentleman deliberately attempted to trick and hoodwink public opinion. It appeared that he went to the hierarchy with a scheme and got them to make concessions they had never been asked to make before, and then, having tricked them into making concessions, he came forward and said—" Oh, I was only speaking for myself and not for the Government." The right hon. Gentleman's action was a disgrace to the Government to which he belonged, and he hoped it would be thoroughly understood in Ireland.
  And, it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  CAPITAL EXPENDITURE (MONEY)
  Resolution reported.
  "That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to borrow, by means of Exchequer Bonds, any sums which they are authorised to borrow by means of terminable annuities, the principal of and interest on such Exchequer Bonds to be charged on the Consolidated Fund, and to make provision for the discharge of any sums so borrowed out of moneys annually provided by Parliament."
  Resolution read a second time.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. SOARESsaid he rose to move an important Amendment. He understood the position of the matter was this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer desired to borrow a sum amounting to £9,250,000, and he would like to borrow this sum in terminable annuities, but unfortunately that source of supply was now not so good as it was in the past; and therefore they brought forward this Resolution with the object of borrowing that sum on Exchequer Bonds. He thought it was admitted that borrowing on Exchequer Bonds was an undesirable form of procedure. It meant a large amount of interest being paid, and it also cost money to place these Bonds; and he was not sure that it would not mean that a less amount of money was devoted to the paying off of the National Debt in the future than in the past, because there was no obligation whatever on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to form a sinking fund. If he borrowed on terminable annuities, there would be an automatic reduction of principal and interest; but if, on the other hand, he borrowed on Exchequer Bonds, they were entirely in his hands as to the amount he would set aside for the purposes of a sinking fund. He did not, therefore, think they ought to give him greater power than was absolutely necessary. He understood that it was possible for him at the present time to raise £3,000,000 of money by means of terminable annuities. If this were so, he would like to know why they should be asked to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer power to raise the whole of this money in the form of

  809
  Exchequer Bonds. The Amendment he proposed to move was to put temptation out of his way, and to limit the amount of his borrowing to £6,250,000. There was also another point of view from which they had to consider this matter. He, for one, could never forget that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a Protectionist; and that it was to the interest of the protectionist scheme to prove that all trades were in a dying condition, that the finances of the country were in a desperate condition, and therefore to pave the way for the policy of winch they had heard so much. For this reason, and also for reasons of economy and of sound finance, he desired to move an Amendment which would restrict the borrowing power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to £6,250,000. The Amendment he desired to move was therefore to insert after the word "sums" in the second line of the Resolution, the following words, "not exceeding in the aggregate £6,250,000."
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 2, after the word 'sums,' to insert the words 'not exceeding in the aggregate £6,250,000.'"—(Mr. Soares.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WHITLEYrose to support the Amendment owing to the present state of national finance. What, he asked, was the state of things which had caused the necessity for this Resolution? It was simply this, that the Government had got the finances of the country into such a hopeless state that the Bank of England would give them no more credit. The Government could no longer borrow in their accustomed place and by their customary method; and, therefore, they had come forward in this way to increase their power of borrowing by means of Exchequer Bonds. What did the difference mean? Borrowing on account of public works loans by means of Exchequer Bonds instead of by terminable annuities had several curious effects. One had been pointed out by his hon. friend. They had no security, in the second place, for the sinking fund. It depended upon the will of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Estimates of the year; and it was difficult to see that the proper amount was paid off year by year. Later on he pro-
  810
  posed to move an Amendment to ensure that there should be a certainty of the proper amount being put aside for sinking fund when these borrowings took place. But there was another effect. They could place Exchequer Bonds at a discount, and terminable annuities they could not. Did the House realise that the credit of the country was such that they had to pay 3½ per cent. in the largest money market in the world to get further credit; and the worst of it was they were going from bad to worse? He would like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give them a statement for the three months of the current year, how much he had borrowed since 1st April. As far as he had been able to follow the thing, there seemed to have been hardly a week pass without borrowing taking place of some sort or another. Anybody who watched the weekly returns of the income and expenditure of the country, he thought, must be seriously alarmed at the financial result of the current year. The right hon. Gentleman's Budget was supposed to be a modest instrument; it did not look like it now, and he would like to ask him if he would give them a frank statement of the gross amount of total indebtedness, and how this had been dealt with in the four months now expired of the present financial year; that was to say, how many lapsed borrowings had been renewed, how many had been paid off, and how many fresh borrowings had taken place?
  He must say that he looked with great anxiety on the present condition of the country's finances, especially from the fact that the Government by their money operations seemed to be making things worse week by week. Had the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought of what was in front of him? There were obligations he could notavoidowing to legislation already passed. He did not think he could have considered these things; at any rate, he did not think the House could have considered them, and he was sure it was time they had a review of the situation and knew exactly where they were before they gave a blank cheque or even a cheque for £6,250,000 to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He recognised that from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's personal point of view the Resolution was all right. He wanted the power to borrow as much money as he could with

  811
  as few restrictions as possible; but this was not what he (the speaker) conceived to be the functions of the House. He thought they ought to make it difficult for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to borrow, especially when they knew that they hart borrowed far too much already, and they ought to take every step in their power to restrict borrowing and to ensure that the tendency would be to pay out of revenue. He supposed they must give up all hopes of the Transvaal war contribution; the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself told them that even within the next twelve months he was not going to ask for it. They had therefore nothing coming in to look forward to, and they had got to face the situation with the liabilities they had. He wish to speak very warmly against widening the borrowing powers of the Chancellor of the Exchequer until they saw a different spirit in controlling the finances of the country and a determined effort to reduce the Debt and not to increase it.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACHsaid he hoped the hon. Member would take it from him that this had nothing to do with the great question of protection or free trade. It was totally irrelevant to that question; and it bad very little to do with the general financial position of the country. The hon. Member was quite mistaken in supposing that the Resolution before the House would give the Chancellor of the Exchequer unlimited power of borrowing. There was nothing of the kind possible under this Resolution. What were the facts of the case? Parliament had authorised the Government to incur a certain debt for the purpose of naval and military works. In the past it had been the universal practice for loans of this kind to be borrowed through the system of terminable annuities. This had been possible, because there had been deposits at the Post Office Savings Bank which it had been possible to invest in terminable annuities at very remunerative rates of interest, and also remunerative to the persons to whom the money belonged; but lately these deposits had largely fallen of. This had nothing to do with the general finances of the country, unless they said that the general financial condition of the country had raised the
  812
  interest on money. Then, of course, it had something to do with it; but, as a matter of fart, interest on money had risen, and since then depositors had been few, and persons had placed their money in other investments. Very well. His right hon. friend not having at his command the source other Chancellors of the Exchequer had had at their command, he asked the House to enable him to carry out the duty Parliament had imposed upon him already by giving him power to borrow these loans through Exchequer Bonds. This was an absolutely legitimate, and not only a legitimate, but a necessary proceeding. Unless Parliament gave the Chancellor of the Exchequer such power, he would be unable to carry out the Naval and Military Works Loans Act which Parliament had already passed. He sympathised with the hon. Member in one sense. He had no doubt, and he thought many hon. Members on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, and he was sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer would desire to see a stop put as soon as possible to the enormous increase of these loans; but he (the speaker) said as much last year speaking on the Naval Works Bill, and he was quite sure the right hon. Gentleman shared that opinion. This right hon. Gentleman could not borrow a single penny on this Resolution on the Bill beyond the amount that Parliament had already authorised, and, more than that, by the terms of the Resolution and he thought by the terms of the Bill, it would be made necessary for the Treasury every year to provide in the Estimates a sum for the interest on these Exchequer Bonds, and for a sinking fund for them precisely as had been the practice under the system of terminable annuities. Then why was it that this proposal should be opposed, unless hon. Members wished to prevent the Government carrying out the duty Parliament had imposed upon them. He did not think they ought to offer opposition.
  MR. LOUGHsaid his hon. friend, as far as he remembered, did not mention free trade or protection. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol had stated that the falling off in the Savings Bank deposits was in no way due to scarcity of money in the country, but to a rise in interest

  813
  which had induced people to seek other in vestments.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I did not say it was in no way due to a scarcity of money.
  MR. LOUGHsaid the right hon. Gentleman said it was due to the fact that the rate of interest had increased that the people had sought other investments. This was an easy way of getting over the difficulty. They on the Opposition side of the House were convinced that the serious difficulties existing in the country were caused to a large extent by the free borrowing for these very purposes, and, under these circumstances, his hon. friend had made a suggestion which he really thought the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down might support. He thought the House ought to hesitate before it took the right hon. Gentleman's advice. What was the suggestion which his hon. friend made? It was simply that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should borrow as little as he could, that, if £6,250,000 would be sufficient for immediate purposes, he should be content with that sum. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was borrowing nothing but what Parliament had sanctioned. This was perfectly true, but it did not carry them the whole way. Parliament sanctioned a sum of a large amount and left it to the Treasury to say how much should be spent in each year. They had had no statement of expenditure in the present year. It was only the previous night that they heard how much would be required for military, naval, and Civil Service works. It was part of the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see whether that amount ought not to be restricted, and this was all his hon. friend asked him to do. He appealed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see if he could not reduce the amount, or, at all events, to give them the particulars they asked for.
  MR. McKENNAsaid that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol gave them an admirable and clear statement of the facts, but he did not think he was justified in saying that it had been the universal practice to borrow money for naval and military purposes on terminable annuities. It had been in every case
  814
  a statutory requirement that the money should he so borrowed, and the reason was obvious. Not only was the interest then provided for, but also the sinking fund. It had been a principle of all Naval and Military Works Acts that money should be borrowed on terms by which a sinking fund should be provided. What was the Chancellor of the Exchequer asking them to do now. He was not asking them to give him power to carry out the existing Act, but to give him power to borrow money without providing a sinking fund.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: That is not so. If I rightly interpret the Resolution, it provides for both principal and interest out of the votes of each year.
  MR. McKENNA: I have read the Resolution, and it contains no such provision. It no such term is in this Resolution, then the Chancellor of the Exchequer is asking us to go beyond the existing Naval and Military Works Acts, and is asking us to give him powers which he has not now.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I am quite willing to admit that there ought to be provision of the kind in the Bill.
  MR. McKENNAsaid the right hon. Gentleman would agree that the Resolution ought to contain annual powers to raise money on such terms that the sinking fund should be provided for. The Resolution said the interest was to be paid annually out of money provided by Parliament. Why not the sinking fund? If it had been intended to include the sinking fund, it should have been referred to in the Resolution; and he went further and said that, if it were in the Bill, the Resolution would have to be recommitted for the purpose of amendment. The right hon. Gentleman, in so far as the Resolution made no provision for the sinking fund, was going outside the principle on which all Naval and Military Works Acts had been passed. There was another ground why he appealed to the House not to sanction any further borrowing powers. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer had got to come to them again in order to get money, he urged that they should take

  815
  the opportunity of reconsidering the Naval and Military Works Acts in one respect: ought they to spend any more money at the present time on the building of barracks intended for an Army Corps system, when it was quite possible that on the following Monday they might hear that after all a new scheme had been adopted, and there was to be a great reduction in our standing military forces? As a mere matter of economy, ought they not to take this opportunity of reconsidering the Naval and Military Works Acts and to refuse to sanction any further borrowing? If the Army Corps scheme were abandoned and they were to have a reduction in the military forces, it was undeniable that large sums of money now being spent would be wasted, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer might take the opportunity not to borrow money for the purposes of these Acts. As they were told that the final question of the Army must wait until public opinion was ripened, ought not these military works to wait so that, at any rate, they might avoid borrowing more money at the present time than was absolutely necessary? By such avoidance they would stop the rapid decline of Consols. He did not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer had realised how burdensome to the trade of the country was the high price of money. So long as the money market had to fear new issues of Consols or Treasury Bonds or Bills, so long would money be dear; and unless Consols were allowed to rise or were forced up, money would remain dear and trade would continue bad. He appealed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take this opportunity to economise on what might be more wasteful military expenditure and to give the money market a rest.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,)said the hon. Member appeared to think that no provision would be made for a sinking fund, and he objected to this system of borrowing on Exchequer Bonds on the ground that it did not place upon the Treasury an obligation to provide a separate sinking fund to extinguish this debt. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the previous night explained that the Bill would contain an obligation on the Treasury to
  816
  provide for the discharge of any loans out of money annually provided by Parliament, for the services for which the loan was raised, within a period not exceeding the maximum fixed by the original Act enabling the Treasury to borrow. That was to say, that within whatever period was fixed by the Naval and Military Works Act these Exchequer Bonds would have to be paid off. His right hon. friend the Member for West Bristol answered another objection, taken by the junior Member for Halifax, that there was no limit to the, amount of borrowing that he could undertake if the Resolution were carried. The amount of borrowing was limited to the amount already sanctioned by Parliament. He quite concurred in the opinion, expressed that it was not desirable that annual Bills for these capital purposes should form a permanent and constant part of the ordinary financial machine. He was not now asking the House to give any extended power of borrowing; he was, not asking for favour to borrow more money than the House had already sanctioned; he was only asking the House to enable him to discharge the obligation it had imposed upon him. He had already made representations to the First Lord of the Admiralty and to the Secretary of State for War to reduce the borrowings to the narrowest limits, and with their concurrence and assistance he had been able to reduce the amount likely to be required in the present year from £10,000,000 to £9,250,000. But they could not stop great works in existence if they wanted to do so. These great building works were being constructed under contract, and the contractors would have very heavy claims for damages if suddenly, when halfway through the work, they stopped their progress and paid them no further instalments. These were obligations which the country had undertaken and which the country must fulfil. Even if they could stop these works suddenly, surely it would not be an economical thing to do! Until the works were complete they got no advantage for their money; it was lying idle and gave them no return, or at any rate only a slight return. In conference with his two right hon. friends, the heads of the two great spending Departments, and with their assistance, he had arranged that only that work should be undertaken at

  817
  the present time which was necessary under existing contracts, was required for the completion of works already in progress, or for some urgent purpose of defence. Of course, the barrack question had been receiving the careful attention of his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War in order that no money should be wasted by any possible changes which might follow the reorganisation of the Army. He hoped the House would agree to the Report of this Resolution, and then they would be able to see the Bill itself.
  SIR EDGAR VINCENT: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the period is?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINreplied that in the case of the Naval and Military Works Loans the period was fixed at thirty years. This was the general period. In the case of public offices—those big buildings in Whitehall—the term was fifty years. Thirty years, however, was the normal and general period.
  MR. SOARES: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question as to whether £6,250,000 is not enough, having regard to his statement last night that he could borrow £3,000,000.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that what he had asked the House to do was to authorise borrowing on Exchequer Bonds the amount which the House had authorised to be borrowed on terminable annuities. He did not think any useful purpose would be served by adopting the hon. Member's suggestion. It would merely involve the repetition of a similar Bill next year, and it would not restrict in any shape or form either the obligations of the country or the amount of borrowing which had to be done.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLsaid the right hon. Gentleman and also the Member for West Bristol had given them explanations which, no doubt, to some extent made this proposal less unacceptable to the House. It was comforting to hear from the Chancellor of the
  818
  Exchequer that the heads of the Naval and Military Departments had given instructions that no further progress was to be made with the wasteful and unnecessary, contracts for works which had been made by their immediate predecessors, and that these unnecessary works would not be further proceeded with in the existing financial situation. He would not associate himself in any marked degree with the acrimonious and controversial criticisms which the hon. Member for Islington made against the Member for West Bristol. He believed the right hon. Gentleman, in spite of the difficulties with which he had been confronted, and which arose from the fact that he was au adherent of a Party which had always been addicted to expenditure, had been a consistent friend of economy. The right hon. Gentleman said that the proposals could not be said altogether to involve the general financial situation of the country, and, he went on, it seemed to him (Mr. Churchill), to adduce arguments, and to offer explanations, which showed how very closely this Resolution, was involved, with the general financial situation of the country. The explanation which he offered of the circumstances which had led to this departure from the ordinary practice was itself conclusive, arid showed the connection between this Resolution and the general financial situation. He took it that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to borrow this sum of money by Exchequer Bonds instead of by terminable annuities, and he understood from his speech that the same provision would be made for a sinking fund to pay off the Exchequer Bonds as would have been made in the case of terminable annuities.
  Why was it they had to borrow by Exchequer Bonds instead of by terminable annuities? The explanation was shortly outlined by his hon. friend, and it was a very significant and instructive story. Terminable annuities had never in the past appealed to the general public. A security repayable by the Government at the end of, say, thirty years, with possible extension, and with a comparatively low rate of interest, had not in former times been the kind of security the public wished to

  819
  invest in largely; and, consequently, the Government had been forced to rely for the provision of the money borrowed on terminable annuities, not upon subscriptions from the general public, but upon sums of money which might be lying under the charge of the National Debt Commissioners, arising from the balances in the Post Office Savings Bank. Hitherto these funds had been sufficient to meet the charges which these loans required; but now they were not Why? For two reasons. The loans had been steadily increasing in size and the funds had diminished in amount. This double, unhealthy, and exhausting operation had destroyed that source of credit. The causes were obviously twofold. In the first place, there was a great increase of taxation, which had caused a scarcity of money all over the country, creating the present financial situation, and carrying with it a curtailment of enjoyment and the straightening of means of every class. This was the first cause of the falling off in the sums of money at the disposal of the National Debt Commissioners. There was another reason advanced by the hon. Member for West Bristol. He said that other securities had risen in the returns they offered to the public, and in consequence of this rise the Post Office Savings Bank no longer presented such an attraction as it formerly did to investors. This was perfectly true, but was it consoling? Why was it that other securities had risen in price? Was it not from the same alarmingly evil tendency with which they were now called upon to deal. It was the more remarkable that the Post Office Savings Bank should not attract the investor to-day, when they reflected that the proposal to reduce the interest on the Savings Bank deposits had been dropped. It might have been understood that there would have been a falling off in the sums of money there had there been a reduction of the interest, but the interest had not been reduced, and for the same disquieting reasons that the rate of interest had risen so high and securities had fallen so low the Government itself should invest in such a way as to pay the old rate of interest, not fall back upon
  820
  the new rate. Notwithstanding this, there was a great falling-off in the sum of money lying to the credit of the National Debt Commissioners. This in itself was surely a sufficient reason why this Resolution was intimately associated with the general financial position, and it was in itself, he thought, quite sufficient justification for the criticism which had been directed against it from his side of the House and also for the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Devonshire.
  He should certainly support that Amendment, because it limited the operation of this very costly and extravagant method of obtaining money, to what was barely necessary for carrying on the immediate needs of the Government. He thought that if, in the very clear and conciliatory explanation offered to the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, there was one part unsatisfactory, it was that in which he dealt with the Amendment. So far as he could gather, his only objection to it was that he might be forced next session to ask fur £3,000,000. They would not complain if the control of the House over the finances were thereby increased; and, if this were the only reason of the right hon. Gentleman, he would surely be well advised to accept the Amendment and expedite the proceedings. Borrowing on Exchequer Bonds at the present time would cost the country something like 3½ per cent. What did this mean? I It meant that this great, powerful Empire, which had so long been at the head of all the financial communities of the world, was now reduced to borrowing on terms which a few years ago would not have satisfied some miserable pettifogging corporation in a difficulty. This alone was the measure of the financial demoralisation of the country. He was pleased to hear the right hon. Member for West Bristol say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was anxiously endeavouring to reduce the practice of borrowing by loans and of carrying on public works by loans, which had so greatly developed of recent times. He was glad also to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself corroborate this; but he would suggest to

  821
  him that, if he were to infuse a spirit of larger economy into his general conduct of public affairs and treatment of political questions, he might find a much greater power of retrenchment than he would find by private bargainings with heads of Government Departments who had already established a scheme for consideration. The fact that we had to borrow at 3½ per cent. by this method, was in itself an indication of the situation in which they found themselves, and the Resolution, which they only had an opportunity of discussing for half an hour the previous night, was one of a succession of blows which had been struck year after year at the credit of the country. He was not going to do more than mention one or two of the principal blows which had been struck.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member must confine himself to the Resolution, and not discuss the history of past years.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILLhoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not consider the close and careful attention the House felt bound to pay to the financial proposals he had made was in any particular sense directed against himself personally, or against the specific proposals he had made. It arose out of the growing anxiety of the country at the general financial situation. That situation was now so grave and serious that Parliament was obliged to give it undivided and uninterrupted attention; and until some amelioration had been achieved, either by the practice of rigid economy or by the co-ordination and regularisation of our outstanding liabilities, the Government must expect that
  822
  all their financial proposals would be the object of severe scrutiny and criticism.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid the right hon. Gentleman had admitted that a great deal had happened since the borrowing of the money was authorised. Not only had the financial resources of the country become restricted, but a new Army scheme had been brought before the country, and it was evident from that scheme that a good deal of the work sanctioned was not required. It was evident, too, from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman himself that what was needed by the House was a clear statement on the part of the Secretary of State for War as to what these barrack requirements really were; and with that lack of information the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not be surprised that this demand for money to go on with these permanent works should be very closely scrutinised by the House, circumstances having entirely altered since the authorisation of these works was given. Let them take the example of Aldershot, New camps had sprung up there until there was far less room for manœuvres, although the troops quartered there had increased. He believed that a great deal of the money borrowed and spent at Aldershot had been absolutely wasted, wasted to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds. He believed that the money spent at Salisbury Plain was to a great extent well spent money; but he thought Aldershot was an instance where public money had been squandered. It might be impossible to prevent some contracts being carried out; but judging from the

  823
  way progress had been made there, it should be possible even now to stop some work and save the need of borrowing money which would simply add to that already wasted. It was all the more necessary that economy should be exercised, because, as they well knew, there was some inevitable expenditure.
  Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided—Ayes, 132; Noes, 48. (Division List No. 306.)

  AYES.

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin &Nairn

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Percy, Earl

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury

  Pym, C. Guy

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Randles, John S.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hamilton, Marq of(L'nd'nderry

  Rankin, Sir James

  Balfour, Rt Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Heath, James (Statfords. N. W

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Bond, Edward

  Helder, Augustus

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Brassey, Albert

  Henderson, Sir A.(Stafford, W.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos Myles

  Butcher, John George

  Hoult, Joseph

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Hunt, Rowland

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A.(Worc.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants. Fareham

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker (Lanarks

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Spear, John Ward

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Lowe, Francis William

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Tuff, Charles

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Valentia, Viscount

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Maxwell, W J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und.Lyne

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wylie, Alexander

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Moore, William

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Morrell, George Herbert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Forster, Henry William

  Mount, William Arthur

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W.

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Gardner, Ernest

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Edwards, Frank

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cawley, Frederick

  Elibank, Master of

  Brigg, John

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Ellice, Capt E C (S. Andrw's Bghs

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Emmott, Alfred

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Doogan, P. C.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Caldwell, James

  Douglas Charles M. (Lanark)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

  Moss, Samuel

  Tennant, Harold John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Norman, Henry

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Dowd, John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Malley, William

  Woodhouse, Sir J T.(Huddersf'd

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Harbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Slack, John Bamford

  Lough, Thomas

  Soares, Ernest J.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Sullivan, Donal

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."
  The House divided—Ayes, 48; Noes, 130. (Division List No. 307.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Harcourt, Lewis V.(Rossendale

  O'Dowd, John

  Brigg, John

  Higham, John Sharpe

  O'Malley, William

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Caldwell, James

  Joicey, Sir James

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Slack, John Bamford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Sullivan, Donal

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Edwards, Frank

  Lough, Thomas

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ellice, Capt E C (S.Andrw's Bghs

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Whitley, T. H. (Halifax)

  Emmott, Alfred

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith)

  Moss, Samuel

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Soares and Mr. Bright.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Norman, Henry

  NOES.

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Henderson, Sir A. Stafford, W.)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hoult, Joseph

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir WilliamHart

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Hunt, Rowland

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Finch, Rt. Hn. George H.

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Rohert Penrose

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Forster, Henry William.

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Bond, Edward

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Brassey, Albert

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin &Nairn

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Lucas, Reginald J (Portsmouth

  Butcher, John George

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rWinlets

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Goschen, Hn. George Joachim

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hamilton Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Moore, William

  Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Morgan, David J(Walthamstow

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Helder, Augustus

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Palmer, Sir Walter(Salisbury)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

  Percy, Earl

  Sandys, Lieut. Col. Thos Myles

  Tuff, Charles

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Pym, C. Guy

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und.Lyne

  Randles, John S.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Wylie, Alexander

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker (Lanarks

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Spear, John Ward

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Stanley, Rt. Hn. Lord (Lancs.)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERclaimed, "That the Main Question be now put."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 130; Noes, 45. (Division List No. 308.)

  AYES.

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Gordon, Hn. T. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Palmer, Sir Walter (Salisbury)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gordon, J.(Londonderry, South

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'mlets

  Percy, Earl

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goschen, Hon. GeorgeJoachim

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Pym, C. Guy

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Randles, John S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn.A. J. (Manch'r

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Balfour, Rt HnGerald W.(Leeds

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Ruthuford, John (Lancashire)

  Bond, Edward

  Helder, Augustus

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

  Brassey, Albert

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Butcher, John George

  Hoult, Joseph

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos Myles

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Cavendish, V. C.W(Derbyshire

  Hunt, Rowland

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Knowles, Sir Lees

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA (Worc.

  Lawrence,Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Leveson-Gower,Frederick N. S.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Crossley, Rt. Hn. Sir Savile

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith,Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Long, Col. Charles W(Evesham

  Smith, Rt Hn J. Parker(Lanarks

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Spear, John Ward

  Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley,Rt. Hon. Lord(Lancs.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lowe, Francis William

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Doxford, Sir WilliamTheodore

  Lucas, Reginald J. Portsmouth

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred)

  Tuff, Charles

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir WilliamHart

  Massey-Mainwaring Hn. W. F.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Webb, Colonel Wiliam George

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Milvain Thomas

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton undLyne

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E, R.)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Moore, William

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Morgan, David J(Walthamstow

  Forster, Henry William

  Morrell, George Herbert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Mount, William Arthur

  Gardner, Ernest

  Murray,RtHn A.Graham (Bute

  Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  O'Malley, William

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Brigg, John

  Harcourt, Lewis V. (Rossendale

  Shipman, Dr John G

  Bright, Allan Heywood

  Higham, John Sharpe

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Sullivan, Donal

  Caldwell, James

  Joicey, Sir James

  Tennant, Harold John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Jones,David Brynmor(Swansea

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthir

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Kilbride, Denis

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Lough, Thomas

  Woodhouse Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfield

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr Slack and Mr. Theodore Taylor.

  Ellice, Capt E C (S.Andrw's Bghs

  Moss, Samuel

  Emmott, Alfred

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Norman, Henry

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary,Mid

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Main Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Victor Cavendish.

  CAPITAL EXPENDITURE (MONEY) BILL.
  "To enable the Treasury to borrow, by means of Exchequer Bonds, for purposes for which they are authorised to borrow by means of terminable annuities;" presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 292.]

  CUNARD AGREEMENT. [MONEY].
  Resolution reported.
  "That it is expedient to authorise the issue, out of the Consolidated Fund, of such sums, not exceeding in the whole £2,600,000, as are required for making the Advances to the Cunard Steamship Company (Limited), under an Agreement with that Company, dated 30th July, 1903, and approved by the House of Commons 12th August, 1903, to authorise the Treasury to borrow money, by means of Exchequer Bonds, for the issue of such sums or the repayment thereof, the principal of and interest on such bonds to be charged on the Consolidated Fund, and to make other provisions relating to the said Agreement."
  Resolution read a second time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. BRYCEsaid the House had now arrived at a very important subject, which had two aspects of great interest. It was now halfpast one, and, if they took a discussion at this stage, it must necessarily give rise to a somewhat prolonged discussion. He therefore, suggested to the Government whether it would not be better to undertake, upon the terms of their being allowed to get this stage with very little debate, to give the House at some future stage of the Bill, a fair arid reasonable chance of discussing it.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,)said the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that this was a Bill which for the first time embodied the policy of the Cunard Agreement, but it was merely a Bill for carrying out the deliberate Resolution the House of Commons passed last year, for simply finding the money to enable them to pay their just debts. He did not see that this was a matter which required a long debate, either at this stage or another.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he certainly understood from his Answer to a Question that the right hon. Gentleman had intended to give the House an opportunity for a full debate on the matter.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was always glad, if he had the time at his disposal, to give them the opportunity of discussion, but he was not always aided in that desire by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. In the present case, as the House knew, the time available for finishing the business of the session in a reasonable period was not great, and it was impossible for them to upset their arrangements unless some strong reasons were shown, and in his opinion no strong reason had been shown. There was really no alternative at all as regarded this Vote unless the House was to show itself utterly unworthy of its traditions.
  *MR. NORMANsaid it seemed to him particularly desirable that the matter should receive further consideration from the House, and he did not think he should be exaggerating if he said that he had never heard a more trivial reply than that of the Secretary to the Admiralty yesterday. His remarks consisted of two quotations from the speeches made some time ago by Members on the Opposition side of the House, both of them speaking entirely without official knowledge and authority. It was a very important question, involving great matters of policy and very large sums of money under different circumstances from those when the matter first claimed attention. It was then done somewhat suddenly. He had heard, and he thought correctly, the word "panic" applied to the legislation then passed. What was called the Atlantic Combine had come, from the
  832
  point of view of its promoters, to a disastrous conclusion, and therefore the measures which the Government thought fit to meet those circumstances no longer existed, and no longer had the justification they originally had. He remembered that the President of the Board of Trade on behalf of the Prime Minister said he would give an evening for this debate. It was true that some time was given last session but it was on 12th August, the very last day of the session. This might be fulfilling the letter of the promise, but he certainly did not think any hon. Member would say that it was fulfilling the promise in the spirit. He was sure that the Prime Minister was the last Member of the House anyone would suspect of sharp practices and he would appeal to him whether when he said that he was not able to give a day before Whitsuntide, although in the strict letter of Parliamentary law he was not legally compelled to give any time, they had not, like another class of persons to whom the Prime Minister had been very kind lately, a "reasonable expectation of renewal" of the debate. One other topic arose in connection with the matter, and it was that a new departure in steamship construction had arisen and had received the approval of some and the condemnation of experts. Since this very large sum other was proposed to be given by the Government in subsidising cruisers, the two vessels that were to be built and in respect of which the money was to be found were to be built on the turbine principle. This was a new departure, and, as far as he was aware, not a single syllable had been said in justification of this entirely novel and mechanical engineering procedure before this large sum of money was to be spent in this connection. For these reasons he ventured to support what his

  833
  right hon. friend had said and to express I the opinion that some explanation more than was given the previous night was needed to justify the Resolution.
  SIR JAMES JOICEYsaid this was an important question in which the whole shipping industry took an interest, and he did think there ought to be an opportunity given for a full debate when there could be a fuller House and when many absent Members who were deeply interested in it were present. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman had made it plain that there would be an opportunity given for discussing the matter, and he hoped he would do so. The Resolution referred to other provisions relating to certain agreements, but there had not been a word of explanation as to what these other provisions were.
  MR. LOUGHsaid that if the suggestion made were accepted, he would refrain from entering into the discussion in any way, but, if it were not, he could not refrain from saying a few words about it. On the last occasion he moved the rejection of the Resolution; and he thought it was a little too strong for the Government to ask them to accept the Bill without any opportunity of discussing it. A very remarkable thing happened about the debate on the last occasion. They pointed out that great new principles were raised in the suggestion, and the next morning The Times made the remarkable announcement that the acceptance of this Resolution practically meant the restoration of the Navigation Laws. There was protection with a vengeance. The thing was a very far-reaching proposal, and the agreement was one that they were bound to examine on every opportunity they got.
  834
  There was one aspect brought before his mind by the best authority he knew. He pointed out to him that in this agreement with this particular company the Government was taking a step in quite an opposite direction to that which they were told it would be wise for them to take. This shipping company did not trade with the Colonies; it traded exclusively with foreign countries, and the subsidy was to be given for trading with one of our greatest commercial rivals in the world. Surely if a great subsidy of this kind were to be given without any competition and without trying what other companies might do who were trading with our own Empire, it was a very strong step for the Government to take. He thought this aspect was one the House ought to consider.
  MR. McKENNAsaid that from the very first moment that he read the agreement he was satisfied that the House would never be given a reasonable opportunity for discussing it. Let hon. Members as business men look at the facts of the agreement. A company with a capital of £1,600,000 had £2,600,000 lent to it at the rate of 2¾ per cent., which he ventured to say was a rate they could not get in the open market. But this was not all. Not only did the company get this loan at 2¾ per cent, but it was to get a subsidy of £150,000 a year. The loan which had to be repaid in instalments and interest came to £165,000 and the subsidy the company received was £150,000, so that the net balance which the company had to pay to the British Exchequer was £15,000. We got £15,000 a year and advanced £2,600,000. What was the reason? It was to be found in one of those preliminary passages which

  835
  began "Whereas." "Whereas," it said, "His Majesty's Government is desirous that the company's business should be maintained under the British flag." Every other steamship company would have the right to come upon the Government and demand enormous loans at ridiculously easy rates to secure that their ships should run under the British flag. Was not the flag sufficient itself? Were they so ashamed of the British flag that they had to bribe companies in order to induce them to remain under it? Our shipping industry, which had kept pace with the whole shipping of the world, and which was as great as the whole shipping industry of the world, had grown up without any of these aids. Was it reasonable that the House should be hurried into incurring debts under conditions of national excitement on the last day of the session when discussion became impossible, and was it reasonable now to say that they must pay this debt? The company knew that the agreement was not valid until the Bill was passed, and the House did not surrender its freedom to subsequently reject the agreement when the Bill was introduced by the passing of the Resolution. We were not only debtors but creditors. Let the Government get their debts from the Transvaal. Let them make them pay, if we had to pay; we had far better claim. If ever there was a Bill on which the House ought to have an opportunity of expressing an opinion in full debate, he submitted it was on a Bill of this sort, under which a single company acquired a huge profit at the public expense.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,)said that the hon. Member for
  836
  West Islington had suggested that the proceedings might be shortened if the Government would undertake to put the Bill before the Treasury Bill on the next occasion. They would be prepared to accept that suggestion if it would have the effect of shortening the debate. They would undertake to bring on this Bill at its next stage at twelve o'clock, but it must be understood that it would be necessary to take the other Treasury Bill the same night.
  MR. BRYCE: I presume it is part of the arrangement that the House will not be asked to go further to-night.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No.
  MR. BRYCE: And it will be taken first at twelve o'clock?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Victor Cavendish, Mr. Gerald Balfour, and Mr. Pretyman.

  CUNARD AGREEMENT (MONEY) BILL.
  "To make provision with respect to an Advance to he made to the Cunard Steamship Company (Limited), under an Agreement with that Company, dated the thirtieth day of July, nineteen hundred and three," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 293.]
  Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 2nd day of August, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at four minutes after Two o'clock.