Sitting of 18 April 1904

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill. To be read the third time tomorrow.
London and North Western Railway Bill (King's Consent signified). Bill read the third time, and passed.
London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Midland Railway Bill. Read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]
Young and Bell's Patents Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Harlow and Sawbridgeworth Gas Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
London County Council (Money) Bill. "To regulate the expenditure of Money by the London County Council on capital account during the current financial period, and the raising of Money to meet such expenditure; and for other purposes," presented, and read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 4). Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board relating to Portsmouth, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Grant Lawson and Mr. Walter Long.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 4) Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board relating to Portsmouth," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions
350
for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 153.]
Mullingar, Kells, and Drogheda Railway Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PETITIONS.
  CONCILIATION AND ARBITRATION ACT (1896) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACT (1901) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LEASEHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSED PREMISES (HOURS OF CLOSING).
  Petition from Battersea, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENCES (RENEWAL).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; from Glasgow; Froggatt; Plymouth; Tyne Dock; Mountain Ash; Failsworth; Pontespury; Southport (two); Fulham; South Shields (eleven); Downham; Eccles; Llanrhaiadr; Rhiw; Walworth and Camberwell; Manchester; Partick; Dorking (two); and Battersea; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC LOCAL VETO BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  POLLING ARRANGEMENTS (PARLIA MENTARY BOROUGHS) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY COUNCILS) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition of the Royal Burghs of Scotland, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  RE-VACCINATION BILL.
  Petition from Manchester, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF BUTTER BILL.
  Petition from Folkestone, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF BUTTER BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TIED HOUSES BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TIED HOUSES (FREEING) BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  VACCINATION BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  WAGES BOARDS BILL.
  Petition from Battersea, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  EXPLOSIONS (CURTIS AND HARVEY'S FACTORY AT CLIFFE, KENT).
  Copy presented, of Report by Captain A. P. H. Desborough, His Majesty's Inspector of Explosives, to the Secretary
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  of State for the Home Department, on the circumstances attending an accident which occurred in the drying-house for nitro-cotton at the Factory of Messrs. Curtis and Harvey, Limited, at Cliffe, Kent, on the 4th February, 1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  EMIGRATION STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Emigration Statistics of Ireland for the year 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Inter-departmental Committee on the Model Course of Physical Exercises [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (OFFICIAL SECRETS).
  Copy presented, of the Indian Official Secrets (Amendment) Act, 1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 14th April; Mr. Bonar Law]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 128.]
  TRADE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM WITH GERMANY.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 7th March; Mr. Matthew White Ridley]; to lie upon the Table.
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 13th April, 1904, declaring that Daniel Gray, Leading Hand of Fitters, Royal Gun Factory, War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  NAVAL EXPENDITURE.
  Return presented, relative there to [ordered 10th March; Sir Edgar Vincent;] to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 129.]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Operation of Education Act.
  MR. GEORGE WHITE: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he can state, for each month since 1st April, 1903, the number of education authorities who

  England.

  Wales and Monmouth.

  Month.

  C.

  C.B.

  B.

  U.D.

  Total.

  C.

  C.B.

  B.

  U.D.

  Total.

  1903:—

  April

  8

  13

  15

  2

  38

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  May

  5

  10

  31

  8

  51

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  June

  5

  8

  18

  11

  42

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  July

  13

  14

  26

  8

  61

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  August

  —

  —

  8

  3

  11

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  September

  16

  15

  17

  11

  59

  7

  —

  1

  4

  12

  October

  —

  1

  6

  5

  12

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  November

  —

  1

  3

  —

  4

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  December

  —

  1

  1

  1

  3

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  1904:—

  January

  —

  2

  —

  —

  2

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  February

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  March

  —

  —

  1

  —

  1

  —

  —

  —

  —

  —

  April

  2

  1

  12

  —

  15

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  49

  66

  139

  49

  303

  7

  —

  5

  7

  19

  Included in this (able are two English boroughs and one Welsh borough which have relinquished all their powers, and three English boroughs and one English urban district which have relinquished their powers under Part III. of the Act. In certain counties and county boroughs

  England.

  Wales and Monmouth.

  C.

  C.B.

  B.

  U.D.

  Total.

  C.

  C.B.

  B.

  U.D.

  Total.

  —

  —

  —

  1

  1

  6

  3

  —

  2

  11

  N.B.—C.—County. C.B.—County Borough. B.—Borough. U.D.—Urban District.

  brought the Education Act into operation within that month and the number of educational districts in which it is not yet in operation, distinguishing between England and Wale;.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The following statement shows the number of appointed days which have fallen in each month from 1st April, 1903:—
  the appointed day for Part II. fell on an earlier date than that for Part III. of the Act. These authorities have been given under the month in which the appointed day for Part III. was fixed. The appointed day has not yet been reached in the following areas:—

  Appointments to Abstractor Class— Age Limits.
  MR. YOXALL: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that when the class of senior abstractors was formed it was stated in the letter of appointment that the age limit for retirement was sixty-five, and that when the limit of age for entrance was extended specially to sixty it was not contemplated compulsorily to retire efficient men at sixty or sixty-one, he will explain why some writers have recently been appointed abstractors who are over sixty years of age.
  (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) I am aware of only three cases in which copyists have received certificates as abstractors after passing the age of sixty. In one case the copyist was nominated before he was sixty, but an accidental delay in the issue of his certificate brought him over that age. In the two other cases the Treasury were not aware that the men were over sixty.

  Income-Tax Collection in the United Kingdom.
  SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the Departmental Return showing the state of the income-tax collection at the end of the months of January, February, and March for England, Scotland, and Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The Returns in question are of a purely Departmental character; they are prepared on quite a different basis for England and Scotland respectively, and the figures would require a large amount of readjustment before they could be used for the purposes of comparison, and under the circumstances I do not propose to lay them.

  Defaulting Solicitors—Creation of a Public Trustee.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: To ask Mr. Attorney-General
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  whether his attention has been called to the number of solicitors who have been struck off the roll during the past five years for misappropriating the moneys of their clients; and whether he will take steps to protect clients and reduce the number of offenders in the profession by, among other things, creating a public trustee with whom the moneys of clients must be invested.
  (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) His Majesty's Government have already taken steps to meet the evil to which the Question calls attention by the introduction and passing of the Larceny Act of 1901, which deals with the very numerous cases to which the existing provisions for the punishment of fraudulent trustees did not apply. The Judicial Trustee Act, 1896, makes provision for the appointment of a judicial trustee in any case in which application is made to the court for that purpose. It would not be practicable to make the investment of trust moneys with a public trustee compulsory, and, moreover, any such measure could not have any application to the very large class of cases in which no formal trust has been created.

  Victoria and Albert Museum and Royal College of Science—Dates of Completion.
  MR. COGHILL: To ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will say what progress is being made with the building of the Victoria and Albert Museum; and at what approximate date will all the different museum buildings of South Kensington be brought to a state of completion.
  (Answered by Lord Balcarres.) Good progress is being made with the building of the Victoria and Albert Museum, the work being now up to the first floor level. There is, at present, no reason to think that the buildings of the Victoria and Albert Museum and the Royal College of Science will not be completed by the dates named in the contracts, viz., 23rd February, 190", and 1st June, 1905, respectively.

  Speed of H.M.S "Drake"—Improved Propellers.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state for what speed was H.M.S. "Drake" designed: what speed did she attain during her initial speed trials; on what date was the "Drake" subsequently fitted with improved propellers, and are those propellers still in use on the "Drake"; what speed has been attained by the "Drake" with these improved propellers; what are the exact details of the screw propellers now fitted to the "Drake," and in what respect do they differ from the propellers with which she was first fitted; are the screw propellers fitted to H.M.S. "Lancaster" similar to those fitted to the "Drake," and, if not, in what respect do they differ; how many and which of His Majesty's warships are now fitted with screw propellers of the type used on the "Drake" and "Lancaster"; what increases of speed have thereby been obtained, and to what improvement in these propellers is such speed attributed; and, in view of the fact that more than 14,000,000 tons of British-owned shipping are propelled by screw propellers and of the commercial importance of sea speed, will he explain why has this information been hitherto withheld.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The "Drake" was designed for twenty-three knots. She obtained 23'05 knots on her initial trials, and in September, 1902, she was fitted with improved propellers which are still in use on the "Drake"; with the improved propellers she attained 24'll knots. It is not considered desirable to publish the exact details of the new propellers. The present propellers of the "Lancaster," and of all the ships of the "County" class, are generally similar to those now fitted to the "Drake"; and a similar gain of speed to that realised in the "Drake" has been obtained in the "County" class over the speed with the screws first fitted. The other three ships of the "Drake" class also have screws approximately the same
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  as the "Drake" herself. The details of these improvements have not been published for the following reasons:—(1) Because under the different conditions of comparatively low speed or low revolutions which obtain in the great majority of merchant shipping the information would be of little value for improving the speed of such vessels. (2) Because it is considered undesirable that information which has been obtained at great cost to the Admiralty should be put at the disposal of Foreign Powers.

  Pensions of Royal Marines.
  MR. KEARLEY: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the highest pension obtainable by a colour-sergeant in the Royal Marine Light Infantry is 2s. 6d. per day; whether that obtainable by the relative rank in the Navy, viz.: that of chief petty officer, is 3s. 5d. per day; and, if so, whether he will undertake to have the circumstances inquired into with a view, if possible, of making the maximum pension obtainable in the Marines equivalent to that in the other branch of the Navy referred to.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The highest pension attainable by a Royal Marine colour sergeant is 2s. 6d. a day. There is no fixed limit to the pension obtainable by a chief petty officer, Royal Navy, and he may, and sometimes does, obtain as much as 3s. 5d. a day. Under the provisions of Order in Council of 28th May, 1887, the maximum amount of pension that can be granted to non-commissioned officers of the Royal Marines in their respective classes was assimilated to corresponding ranks in the Army, and still remains so. I may add that a colour-sergeant does not rank with a chief petty officer, but with a petty officer 1st class.

  Gun Sights of H.M.S. "Centurion."
  MR. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the late Commander-in-Chief on the China station, Sir Cyprian Bridge, has informed the Admiralty that, owing

  359
  to defective gun sights, the "Centurion" is not fit to go into action.
  (Answered by Mr. Prelyman.) The Admiralty are not prepared to answer Questions respecting any communications which pass between them and the Commander-in-Chief of stations; they would never have sent the "Centurion" to China if they did not consider her fit to go into action. I have nothing to add to the information I have already given in respect of the accuracy of the "Centurion's" sights; but I take this opportunity of stating that in the course of carrying out recent gun practice on the China station the "Centurion" obtained three direct hits in succession on an eight feet target at 2,600 yards, steaming at twelve knots, with her ten-inch guns, and only had two lost shots out of sixteen rounds.

  London Postal Porters' Grievances.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is prepared to announce the decision of the Department on the questions laid before his predecessor in July last by a deputation representing the London Postal Porters' Association; and, if not, when a reply will be forthcoming.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) The representations made by the deputation of porters in the London postal service at their interview with my predecessor in July last are under consideration; but I am not prepared to give my decision until I have seen the Report of the Committee on Post Office Wages now sitting.

  Officers of Macedonian Gendarmerie.
  MR. MOON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give the latest information as to where are General de Giorgis and the various groups of officers nominated respectively by the Powers to serve in the Macedonian Gendarmerie; as to the numbers and distribution of the officers and men of that force in the three vilayets; and as to whether there are or will remain in that force Turkish officers of equal or superior military rank to that of the officers nominated by the Powers.
  360
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) The foreign staff officers left Constantinople for Salonica on the 11th instant, and it was arranged that General de Giorgis should follow them in a few days. Five British officers, who have been appointed to-serve in the Macedonian Gendarmerie, have left this country under instructions to report themselves at Salonica on the 15th instant. It is understood that they will arrive simultaneously with the officers who have been selected by the other Powers. His Majesty's Government have received no information as yet with regard to the details mentioned in the last paragraph of the hon. Member's Question.

  Report of Civil Assessors for Macedonia.
  MR. YERBURGH: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the civil assessors for Macedonia, appointed by Austro-Hungary and Russia, have presented any reports to their respective Governments; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government can arrange to have such reports presented to the House.
  (Answered by Earl Percy.) No such reports have been communicated to His Majesty's Government, but an inquiry has been addressed to the Austro-Hun-garian and Russian Governments with regard to the results of the mission entrusted to the two assessors.

  Area, Population, and Valuation of Proposed Scottish Education Districts.
  MR. MAXWELL: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will present, before the Second Reading of the Education (Scotland) Bill, a Return showing the area, population, and valuation of the education districts to be formed under the Bill.
  (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) I am preparing a Return which will be issued shortly, which will give all that the hon. Member desires, except the area, with some additional information. The area will be found in Command Paper No. 1996.

  Statistics of Animal Disease.
  MR. LAMBERT: To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will state the statistics of animal disease, including swine fever,

  Period.

  Swine Fever.

  Anthrax.

  Glanders.

  Sheep Scab.†

  Outbreaks.

  Swine slaughtered as diseased or as exposed to infection.

  Outbreaks.

  Animals attacked.

  Outbreaks.

  Animals attacked.

  Outbreaks.

  Sheep attacked.

  Total for 15 weeks to 13th April 1901

  818

  3,823

  198

  303

  338

  619

  960

  12,040

  Corresponding period in 1902

  458

  2,323

  229

  394

  334

  639

  911

  10,648

  Corresponding period in 1903

  408

  1,871

  238

  369

  356

  627

  953

  10,064

  Corresponding period in 1904

  377

  2,209

  307

  420

  426

  809

  831

  11,216

  Candidates for Election to Boards of Guardians.
  DR. RUTHERFOORD HARRIS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that ex-officials of metropolitan boards of guardians in receipt of pensions have been nominated as candidates for election as guardians; and, if so, whether he will take steps so to amend the law as to render it impossible.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I believe there have been cases of the kind referred to. I am not, however, prepared to say that an ex-Poor Law officer in receipt of a pension ought necessarily to be disqualified for being a member of a board of guardians.

  Compensation for Accidents on the Dublin and Blessington Steam Tramways.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can give the names of the persons to whom compensation was paid on account of fatal and other accidents on the Dublin and
  † First three months to 31st March.
  anthrax, and glanders, to the latest available date of this year, together with corresponding totals for the three preceding years.
  (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) Contagious Diseases of Animals in Great Britain:—
  Blessington steam tram line, and on account of damage to property; whether the £1,100 awarded to the claimants included law costs; and, if not, how much did the costs amount to in regard to all the claims.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The names of the claimants to whom compensation was awarded are P. Ellard, W. Osbourne, W. Verschoyle, J. Brady, and H. Murray. The compensation is believed to have included costs, and the amount stated was awarded for damage to property.

  Irish Land Act—Receivable Order Form for Repayment of Purchase Annuities.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if, before the form of receivable order for the repayment of purchase annuities under the Irish Land Purchase Acts is finally decided upon, he will lay a copy of the form proposed upon the Table of the House.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) An amendment of the form of receivable

  363
  order at present in use is under consideration. It is proposed to communicate copies of the proposed new form of order to the various banks interested, and a copy will also be sent to the hon. Baronet. It is not, however, proposed to lay the document upon the Table of the House.

  Royal Irish Constabulary—District Inspectors over Sixty Years of Age.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of district inspectors of the Royal Irish Constabulary who have reached the age of sixty years, entitling them to pension; and if ho will, in the interest of the public service, take steps to have them retired forthwith.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) There are five district inspectors at present serving in the force who are over the age mentioned. They are retained on the active list because they are all efficient officers. One of them, however, has applied to be retired on pension.

  Appointment of Local Manager for Lislea National School.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Commissioners of National Education have received a memorial signed by parents of children attending Lislea No.1 national school (county Armagh), asking for the appointment of a local manager for the school; and, if so, whether, seeing that the temporary manager appointed resides twenty miles distant, the Commissioners, in the interests of education, will accede to the wish of the memorialists.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The memorial was received and carefully considered by the Commissioners, who do not propose to make any change in the management of this school pending the settlement of existing local differences arising out of the resignation of the Rev. W. Ingram, the late manager. The Commissioners consider that the recognition of the Rev. R. T. Simpson as temporary manager is at present in the
  364
  interests of the school, and under all the circumstances preferable to the recognition of one of the local candidates.

  Salary of Principal Teacher of Droumtacher National School.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONXELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain why Mr. Thomas O'Flaherty, principal teacher, Droumtacher national school, Tralee, has not got an increment at the recent revision of salaries; and whether, in view of his character and the success of his work, he will state if the special difficulties which he had to contend against were at all taken into account by the inspector of his district; and whether another inspector will be asked to inspect and report on his work.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I am informed by the Commissioners that it is an essential condition for the award of increments of "good service" salary to teachers that their schools must be in such a satisfactory condition as to; enable the inspector to report the general proficiency of the pupils as "good." The school in question falls short of this standard of merit. At the last annual inspection in June, 1903, the proficiency was reported by the inspector as merely "fair," and it did not deserve the description "good" at either of the two previous annual inspections. In giving their opinion of the schools they visit the inspectors take all the special circumstances of each case into consideration. There appear to be no grounds, in the opinion of the Commissioners, for calling for a report on the school from an inspector other than the inspector of the district.

  Remission of Charges for Extra Police in Ireland.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ire-land if he will state in what counties have charges for extra police been remitted during the past five years, and the amounts so remitted in each case.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The following is a list of the cases in which charges for additional forces of police

  365
  were remitted for the reasons explained by me in answer to my hon. friend's previous Question of the 24th ultimo † The period covered by these remitted charges, the amount of which is shown in each case, extends from 1st April, 1901, to 31st March, 1903:—County Cavan, £182 17s. 9d.; County CIare,£l,067 3s. 6d.; County Fermanagh, £179 Is. 4d.; County Galway, £756 13s. 3d.; County Leitrim, £903 lls. 9d; County Roscommon, £801 14s l0d.: County Sligo, £2,323 16s. 10d.; County Tipperary, £633 2s. 10d.; County' Waterford, £556 15s. 6d.; Total £7,404 17s. 7d.

  Petition of Veterinary Officers of Department of Agriculture.
  MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieuten-ant of Ireland whether he can state when he expects to be able to communicate the decision to be arrived at in the matter of the petition from the veterinary officers of the Department of Agriculture.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The matter is still the subject of correspondence between the Department and the Treasury. I cannot, at present, state when a decision may be arrived at.

  Irish Land Purchase Acts—Calculation of Annuities.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what basis or at what rate are the annuities calculated against the tenants who purchased under the Land Acts of 1891 and 1896; whether he can state the percentage rate charged to make up the annuities under the decadal system for the first ten years, second ten years, third ten years, and also the final forty-two and a half years under the Land Purchase Acts of 1891 and 1896.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what basis or at what rate are the annuities calculated against the tenants who purchased under the Land Purchase Acts of 1885 and 1888; whether he can also state the percentage rate charged to the tenant, in order to ascertain the annuities
  † See (4) Debates, exxxii., 610.
  366
  payable under the decadal system for the first ten years, the second ten years, the third ten years, and also the final forty-nine years under the Land Purchase Acts of 1885 and 1888.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The information desired by these Questions will be found in a Return laid by me upon the Table of the House in 1902 (No. 186 of the session of 1902).

  Amount paid by Government to London and Birmingham Small Arms Companies for Use of Rifle Ranges.
  MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War what is the total amount that has been paid during the Last three years to the London and Birmingham Small Arms Companies for the rifle ranges constructed on their premises; to what Vote have the sums paid been charged; and is the expenditure of capital on private premises subject to any condition as to repayment.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The total payments to these two companies for the construction of ranges are:—London Small Arms Company, £3.929 13s. 8d.; Birmingham Small Arms Company, £2,297 10s. 5d.; Total £6,227 4s. 1d. These sums have been charged to a special heading under Army Vote 9 in 1902–3 and 1903–4. The expenditure in question is not repayable, but the War Office has the exclusive use of the two ranges referred to.

  Police Regulations for Natives in Johannesburg.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a proclamation has recently been issued by the Commissioner of Police in Johannesburg to the effect that no coolies or natives shall he allowed to walk on the sidewalks of the streets; and will he say whether this order has the sanction of His Majesty's Government, and, if so, for what reason.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) A provision against natives using the footpaths is contained in the tariff bylaws issued under a notice dated 7th March. This regulation is in accordance with what has been the local law for

  367
  many years, and is subject to the instructions to the police to enforce the same with discretion.

  Purchases of Coal for Gold Coast Government Railway.
  MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether coal for the Gold Coast Government railway is purchased through the Crown Agents; and, if so, whether he will state what is the average price paid for the coal during the last three months and the average cost of the freight.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) Coal and patent fuel for the Gold Coast Government railway are purchased through he Crown Agents for the Colonies. The price quoted to the Crown Agents is inclusive of freight and landing charges in the Colony, and it is not possible to separate exactly the cost of the coal or fuel from the other charges. The cost of freight may, however, be taken approximately at from 20s. to 22s. 6d. a ton and the landing charges at 5s. a ton. In the case of coal the cost also includes the export duty from this country of 1s. a ton. No coal has been supplied since June, 1903, but the cost, including freight, export duty, and landing charges, for the three months, April to June, 1903, varied between 40s. and 42s. 6d. a ton. Patent fuel, which was last shipped on the 15th of January, 1904, has been supplied at the uniform price of 42s. 6d. a ton.

  Collection by British South African Police of Hut Tax in Rhodesia.
  MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if it has been necessary to send a force of sixty British South African police to collect the recently increased hut tax in Rhodesia.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) I have no information to this effect.

  Wages of Chinese Labourers in the Transvaal.
  MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if any provision has been inserted in the regulations controlling the recruiting of Chinese coolies for the Transvaal which
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  will ensure the payment of wages not less than are now paid to South African natives.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The object of the introduction of Chinese labour is to supplement the present deficiency of Kaffir labourers and not to lower by competition the wages paid to them. I am in communication with Lord Milner as to the precise method of securing the end in view.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Inspectors of Ordnance.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, seeing that the duties of the Royal Artillery officers who act as inspectors of ordnance at Gibraltar, Malta, and other naval dockyards are principally naval, he will take steps to secure that these appointments shall be held in future by naval officers, and say whether it is contemplated to create a separate naval ordnance branch to discharge these duties.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): The appointment of naval officers as inspectors of ordnance at the places named would entail a duplication of staff for inspection duties, and as the present system works well, it is not considered desirable to create a separate naval inspection department.

  Construction of Ullapool Naval Reserve Station.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the negotiations for a site for the establishment of a Royal Naval Reserve Station at Ullapool, Ross-shire, have yet been brought to a satisfactory conclusion; and, if so, will he state when the work of construction will be proceeded with.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARTHUR LEE,): An offer to feu the necessary sites has been accepted, and, on the completion of the feu charter, the construction of the necessary buildings will be proceeded with.

  Haslar Toll Bridge.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will consider the advisability of making some arrangements with the proprietors of Haslar Toll Bridge, under which soldiers and sailors in uniform and relatives visiting men in Haslar Hospital may use the bridge free of charge.
  MR. ARTHUR LEE: Under the arrangements now existing, soldiers and sailors on duty are entitled to the free use of Haslar Bridge, and relatives visiting men in Haslar Hospital are given free passes, subject to certain conditions laid down by the Treasury. The general question of the use of this bridge is now engaging the attention of the Admiralty.

  Submarine A 1.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I desire to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has any information as to the raising of Submarine A 1.
  MR. PRETYMAN: A telegram was received at the Admiralty at 11.48 from the Commander-in-Chief, stating that the submarine has been raised and was coming into harbour. Since then I have received information that she has not yet been actually docked, but that she is in the entrance to the dock.

  Administration of the Auxiliary Forces
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can assure the House that no administrative changes as regards the Auxiliary Forces shall take place until the Report of the Royal Commission, which has been sitting for the past twelve months, has been issued; and if the Volunteer Vote will be deferred until that Report is available, so as to admit of its discussion by the House. In putting the Question may I also ask a Question of which I have given private notice, viz., Is it a fact that Sir Alfred Turner has resigned his post as Inspector-General of Auxiliary Forces on account of his dissatisfaction with the transfer of the control of the Volunteers to the Adjutant-General?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): I fear I cannot give my hon. and gallant friend the assurance he requires. A change has already been made in the administrative arrangements of the Volunteer Force. General Mackinnon has been appointed Director of Auxiliary Forces, and I hope to appoint three officers of the Auxiliary Forces as his subordinates. I hope, in addition, to appoint officers of the Auxiliary Forces to the Department of the Chief of the General Staff and of the Quartermaster-General. This arrangement is a new one and will, I feel confident, be welcomed by the Auxiliary Forces. In answer to the latter part of my hon. and gallant friend's Question, I do not know when the Auxiliary Foces Commission will report, and I cannot, therefore, give any undertaking which is dependent upon an unknown date. I will, however, do my best to meet my hon. friend's wishes by postponing the Volunteer Vote for the present. The answer to the supplementary Question is as follows:—No. Sir, there is no truth in the statement that Sir Alfred Turner has resigned his post for the reason stated, or at all. Sir Alfred Turner, who has rendered great service to the Auxiliary Forces by his sympathy, zeal, and judgment, attained the age limit on 3rd March last. He was, however, good enough to offer to remain until arrangements could be made for carrying on his work. I accepted this offer, and General Turner has remained until the expiration of the additional term proposed by himself. There is no question of a transfer of the administration of the Auxiliary Forces to the Adjutant-General, for these forces have been under that officer, and consequently the Inspector-General of Auxiliary Forces could have had no such motive as that suggested. As I have pointed out however, in reply to the Question on the. Paper, it is now proposed to attach officers of the Auxiliary Forces to the Departments of the Chief of the General Staff and of the Quartermaster-General as well as to that of the Adjutant-General.

  Somaliland Campaign.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can give information

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  as to the present military position in Somaliland.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: At the same time may I ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has any official information showing that the Somali Mullah has escaped into Italian territory; and, if so, whether military operations will be prolonged; and will he state what is the estimated cost during the present financial year up to the 19th instant of the operations in Somaliland.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The Mullah has, we believe, escaped into Italian territory. He has sustained very severe losses in men and animals. The force under his command has been routed and driven out of the Protectorate and he is now practically without a following. In view of these circumstances, it has been decided to discontinue the military operations and to reduce the field force. Orders to this effect have been given. The cost of the operations during the present financial year up to the 19th instant may be estimated at about £50,000.
  MR. LOUGH: What does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate will be the total cost of the operations within the financial year.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: There will be certain terminal charges, and I am having a calculation made as to whether there will be any other charges. The circumstances which permitted us to make this change only occurred very recently, and I shall lose no time in ascertaining what the cost may be.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: Has the right hon. Gentleman any definite information as to the whereabouts of the Mullah, and as to whether he is supposed to have taken any following with him.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice of the Question. The Mullah, as I have said, is supposed to have passed into Italian territory, but where he is at the precise moment I cannot tell the hon. Member. This is a country of great
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  expanses and few names; I cannot give the exact name of the place.
  A NATIONALIST MEMBER: Is he coming back?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman issue a statement setting forth the entire cost of the campaign, and what has been achieved at that cost?
  [No answer was returned.]

  The Woolwich Rotunda Guns.
  SIR GEORGE BARTLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the condition of the ancient guns that are placed on the ground in the open air outside the Rotunda at Woolwich; whether he is aware that some of them have recently been stolen; and whether, seeing they are specimens of guns of considerable historic interest, he will cause a light shed to be built over them, so that while remaining open to the public they may be better protected and not injured by the weather.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Yes, Sir, my attention has been drawn to the condition of these guns and to the fact that some of them have been recently stolen. The question of providing protection for these guns is now being considered.

  Colonies and Preferential Tariffs
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what record there is of resolutions in favour of preferential relations between the Colonies and Great Britain passed by Colonial Legislatures since the year 1890; and if he will also state whether there is any record of resolutions passed by such Legislatures against preferential relations.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. LYTTELTON,): An Address from the Senate and House of Commons of Canada to Her late Majesty on this subject was received in November, 1891, and resolutions in favour of preferential relations between the Colonies and Great

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  Britain were passed last year by the Legislatures of Dominica and Barbados and a similar resolution was passed by the Manitoba Legislature in February last. I am not aware that any resolutions against preferential relations have been passed by any Colonial Legislature.

  Transvaal Ordinances -Assent of the Governor.
  MR. CHANNING: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether either under the Commission under the Great Seal or the instructions under the Royal Sign Manual issued to the High Commissioner and Governor of the Transvaal, there is the usual clause directing him not to assent in the King's name to any Ordinance whereby persons not of European birth or descent may be subjected or made liable to any disabilities or restrictions to which persons of European birth or descent are not also subjected or made liable; and, if not, why and when this clause was omitted from the instructions.
  MR. LYTTELTON,I have to refer the hon. Member to my reply to a similar Question addressed to me on 28th March, by the hon. Member for Banffshire.†

  Chinese in the Transvaal.
  MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state the number of Chinese now residing in the Transvaal under unrestricted conditions; and whether it is proposed to take steps either to repatriate them or to modify their present status in the event of the proposal to import indentured Chinese being proceeded with.
  MR. LYTTELTON: In answer to a Question addressed to me on 28th March by the hon. Member for the Cleveland Division of Yorkshire ‡ I gave the number of male Chinese above the age of sixteen resident in the Transvaal, which is 981. There has been no proposal to modify their status as a result of the importation of indentured Chinese.
  † See (4) Deludes, cxxxii, 830.
  ‡See (4) Debates, cxxxii, 828.

  Trinidad and British Guiana Labour Ordinances.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Trinidad and British Guiana Ordinances relating to immigration of Indian coolies will be circulated; and when the Regulations with reference to Chinese immigration into the Transvaal will be laid on the Table.
  MR. LYTTELTON: The Ordinances will be circulated on the 21st of April. The Regulations will be laid as soon as possible, but I cannot yet fix a definite date.

  Plague at Hong-Kong.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, having regard to the presence of the plague at Hong-Kong and Johannesburg and the admitted susceptibility of the Chinese to this disease, he will suspend the embarkation and importation of any Chinese labourers until the ports in China and the district in South Africa are declared to be free from plague.
  MR. LYTTELTON: I have to refer to the answer given by me to a similar Question addressed to me on 29th March last by the hon. Member for Mid. Derbyshire,†

  The Mission to Tibet.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in the event of negotiations at Gyangtse with Tibet breaking down, it is proposed to continue the advance to Lhasa; and whether any preparations have been made with the latter object in view.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BRODRICK,): I do not think that a statement of the intentions of the Government in the event of the negotiations at Gyangtse breaking down would be in the public interest at this moment.
  MR. LAMBERT: Will the right hon. Gentleman telegraph instructions that
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxii., 973.

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  this expedition need not slaughter these unfortunate people.
  [No answer was returned.]

  Telegraphic Rates to India.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, having regard to the recommendations made by Lord Curzon, will he consider the expediency of communicating with the Postmaster-General, and with the telegraph companies concerned, with a view to secure a reduction in the rates on telegrams to India from 2s. 6d. to 2s. per word, and a corresponding reduction in the Press rates.
  MR. BRODRICK: The recommendations made by the Government of India are now under consideration, and the expediency of communicating with the telegraph companies with a view to the proposed reduction of rates will be duly considered.

  Brussels Sugar Convention.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs have His Majesty's Government adhered to the Brussels Sugar Convention on behalf of the British Crown Colonies, or have they refused so to adhere to it; when, how, and in what form was the adherence, or the refusal of the adherence in question, signified to the other Signatory Powers; and are the Crown Colonies now bound to observe any, and if so which, of the stipulations and obligations of this Convention.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Earl PERCY,): His Majesty's Government have not adhered to the Brussels Sugar Convention on behalf of the Crown Colonies, and have consequently made no communication on the subject to the signatory Powers. The Crown Colonies are bound by the stipulations of Articles V. and VIII. of the Convention. They are also bound not to give bounties.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: How can the Crown Colonies be bound by a convention to which His Majesty's Government have not adhered on their behalf?
  EARL PERCY: We stated at the time that we undertook this responsibility in regard to the Crown Colonies.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I asked whether His Majesty's Government had adhered to the Convention on behalf of the Crown Colonies.
  EARL PERCY: I can add nothing to my answer. We have not adhered to it on behalf of the Crown Colonies, and we have pledged the Crown Colonies to carry out these two Articles.

  The Anglo-French Agreement
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is the French or the English text of the Anglo-French Declaration of 8th April, 1904, respecting Egypt and Morocco the binding text; why is the expression in the French text in Article II., where by Great Britain recognises that it appertains to France to "veiller à la tran-quillté" of Morocco, represented in the English text by the larger expression to "preserve order" in that country: why is the French expression in Article VII. Prohibiting fortification and strategic works on the Moroccan coast"comprise entre Melilla et les hauteurs qui dominent la rive droite du Sébou," represented in the English text by, "comprised between, but not including, Melilla and the heights which command the right bank of the river Sebou," does the introduction into the English text of the words "but not including" exclude both Melilla and the Sebou heights or Melilla alone; and does the limitation of the mutual engagement, contained in Article IV., to thirty years, apply to Article IV. alone or to all the nine Articles of the Declaration.
  EARL PERCY: Both texts are binding. As regards the two phrases referred to, the wording of each text appears very happily to reproduce the meaning of the other. The use or the word"exlcusive-ment" in the French text seems to have escaped my hon. friend's notice. The "exclusion" applies both to Melilla and to the heights which command the right bank of the Sebou. The thirty years limitation applies only to Aiticle IV.

  American Duty on Irish Mackerel
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the attention of the Government has been called to the action of the United States in imposing an extra dollar duty on each barrel of mackerel from Ireland; and whether, in order to prevent injury by this extra duty to an Irish industry, some representations will be made to the American Government on the subject.
  EARL PERCY: A ruling has been given by the Board of General Appraisers based on an earlier decision regarding limes imported in brine which has the effect of imposing a duty on both brine and fish at the rate applicable. No actual tariff alteration, however, has taken place, and there is a right of appeal from the decisions of the Board of General Appraisers to the Circuit Court of the district in which disputes arise. Under certain circumstances a further appeal may be made to the Supreme Court of the United States. At the present stage, therefore, it would be of no use to address a representation to the United States on the subject.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: As this affects a considerable industry in Ireland, will the noble Lord closely watch his opportunity and make representations when they are likely to have good results.
  KARL PERCY: Yes, I think I can promise that.

  British Patents,
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if the proportion of British patents granted to foreigners residing and manufacturing abroad, returned by the Comptroller-General of Patents at 53'2 per cent, for the year 1901, obtains for all the patents now in force; what is the approximate number of such patents; and what proportion of the articles so patented, if any, are manufactured in the United Kingdom.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The figures quoted by
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  the hon. Member represent the proportion of British patents granted to persons residing abroad and in the Colonies in the year 1901, and have no reference to the place where the patented goods were manufactured. The proportion varies from year to year. In 1902 it was 50'4 and in 1903 51'4 per cent. The number of British patents in force at the end of the year 1902 was about 72,000, but the Patent Office have no information as to the proportion of articles manufactured in the United Kingdom under these patents.

  Vagrancy Laws.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY - GORE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the resolution adopted at the Michaelmas Quarter Sessions of the Parts of Lindsey, that His Majesty's Government should be approached with the object of their initiating legislation for the amendment of the Vagrancy Laws upon the lines found to be successful in Belgium, or in some other manner efficacious for dealing with those laws throughout the United Kingdom for the benefit of the public at large; and, if so, will he say whether there is any probability of His Majesty's Government acting upon this resolution.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): Yes, Sir, and I have given the important questions dealt with in the resolution special consideration. The Government are of opinion that the matter is one for careful and early inquiry; but I am not prepared at this moment to make a statement as to the form which the inquiry will take.

  Dundee Postmen's Grievances.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether a petition from the postmen of Dundee presented to the surveyor at Edinburgh on the 16th September, 1903, has been brought to his notice; and, if so, why no answer has yet been given by the Department.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Lord STANLEY,): The surveyor has submitted the petition from the Dundee postmen to which the hon. Member refers, together with detailed proposals for a readjustment of the work of the office. These proposals require and are receiving careful examination and as soon as a decision has been arrived at the postmen will be duly informed.

  Calf Lymph for Scotland.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, having regard to the fact that Dr. Blaxall, a salaried officer of the London Board, receives from the Scottish Board £105 per annum for lymph prepared in the Board's laboratory and produced from calves the property of the Board, will he state whether this sum represents the whole of the profit derived by Dr. Blaxall from lymph prepared in the Board's laboratory; and, if not, will he state what extra sum Dr. Blaxall thus received last year, and to whom the lymph was sold.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. GRANT LAWSON,): Apart from his ordinary salary, no sum, other than that paid to Dr. Blaxall by the Local Government Board for Scotland, was received by him for lymph prepared in the laboratories at Chelsea. As I have stated on previous occasions the cost of the production and preparation of lymph supplied to the Scottish Board was borne by Dr. Blaxall.

  Agriculture.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will state what is the total number of persons engaged in the cultivation of the soil in England and Wales.
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: The total number of persons, aged ten years and upwards returned in the Summary Tables of the Census of England and Wales for 1901 as engaged in agriculture, was 1,128,604,
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  of whom 1,071,040 were males and 57,564 females.

  Canadian Cattle.
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board has information showing that any infectious disease has existed amongst Canadian cattle since the passing of the Diseases of Animals Act in 1896, and why healthy Canadian cattle cannot be imported for the benefit of cattle feeders in this country.
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: The reply to the first Question is in the negative. With regard to the second I can only say that the Diseases of Animals Acts provide that no animals brought to this country from abroad shall be moved alive out of the wharf at which they are landed. They cannot, therefore, be used for store purposes.

  Elementary School Departments.
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will state the total number of elementary school departments in England and Wales under separate head teachers according to the last statistics of the Board of Education, giving the figures for council and voluntary schools separately.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): The numbers of elementary school departments in England and Wales for the year 1902–3 are as follows:—In Council Schools, 11,213; Church Schools, 16,351; Wesleyan Schools, 700; Roman Catholic Schools, 1,814: British Schools, 1,470; Total for Voluntary Schools, 20,335; Grand Total, 31,548.

  Scottish Private Bill Inquiry.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the fact that no Members of this House sat on the recent Commission of Inquiry held in Scotland under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act; and whether he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to insure that so long as there

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  are any Members of this House willing to act on such Commissions, they shall have an opportunity of doing so.
  SIR WALTER THORBURN: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the Question may I ask if it is not the fact that Gentlemen on this side of the House were willing to serve on the Commission and only declined when it was found that no Gentleman on the Opposition side would consent to sit in it.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): With regard to what the hon. Baronet has just said, I do not think that matter came within my cognisance. All I had to know was who was going to act and who was not. I am aware that no Members of this House sat on the recent Commission of Inquiry held in Scotland under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act. The Members originally nominated were unable to act and, no other Members of the Parliamentary Panel being available, the necessary quorum was made up from the Extra-Parliamentary Panel. I do not contemplate taking any legislative steps in the sense suggested by the hon. Member.
  MR. JOHN WILSON: If the right hon. Gentleman will renew his inquiries he will find that the whole Parliamentary Panel were not asked?

  Registration of Deeds in Ireland.
  MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the system of registration of deeds in Scotland and in three districts of England, namely, Middlesex, York, and Kingston-upon-Hull, is the same as, or similar to, that which exists in Ireland; and, if so, will he explain why certain duties leviable and levied in Ireland on affidavits lodged for the purpose of registration, and on memorials of deeds, are not levied or leviable in Scotland or in the three districts of England mentioned.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr.VICTORCAVENDISH,): Speaking generally, the systems of registration of deeds in Scot-
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  land and in Middlesex, Yorkshire, and Kingston-upon-Hull are similar to that which exists in Ireland, but there are important differences of procedure in all the systems, arising from the different statutes and statutory rules under which they have from time to time been established and regulated. The duties levied and leviable in Ireland on affidavits lodged for the purpose of registration, and on memorials of deeds, are levied under provisions of the Stamp Act, 1891, which apply, as to affidavits, to the whole of the United Kingdom, and, as to memorials, to England and Ireland—where alone memorials are used.

  Irish Training Colleges.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state when was the result of the settlement made in 1890 by the present First Lord of the Treasury between the Irish Training Colleges then existing brought to his notice; did either of his two immediate predecessors in office observe it; did the Commissioners of National Education in the year 1890 make any complaint about it; and can he state when and by whom was the matter first brought before him.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNUHAM,): The full text of the letter of the Irish Government dated 25th November, 1890, was published in the Report of the Commissioners for that year. The decisions arrived at by the Government, with the concurrence of the Treasury, and announced in that communication, have since been strictly observed. These decisions were approved by the Commissioners.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has at any time taken the opinion of the Commissioners of National Education on the claim made by the training colleges of Waterford. Belfast, and Limerick with respect to free homes; and, if not, will he take it now particularly as to the relation between this claim and the efficiency of the work done in these colleges.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Representations of the character mentioned have been made to Government from time to time on behalf of the three provincial training colleges, and the decision arrived at in each case has been in accordance with the terms of the settlement effected in 1890 and the rules made thereunder. The opinion of the Commissioners was not sought as the matter was one for the consideration of the Executive, and I see no advantage in inviting their opinion now.

  Labourers (Ireland) Acts—Mr. Cyril Atkinson's Appointment.
  MR. MURPHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will say for what purpose a Mr. Cyril Atkinson has been appointed by the Local Government Board in connection with the Labourers Acts; what qualifications Mr. Atkinson has for the performance of such duties; and will he have to make any reports for publication before the discussion on the Labourers Bill.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Atkinson is not on the permanent establishment of the Board, but is employed occasionally in assisting the Board's inspectors in the administration of the Labourers Acts. He has been associated with some of the most experienced inspectors in these duties, and has also had considerable experience in engineering work. The reply to the concluding inquiry is in the negative.
  MR. MURPHY: Is Mr. Atkinson the son of the Attorney-General?
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Is the appointment in recognition of the skill of the Attorney-General in drafting bills?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Is it disorderly to endeavour to expose jobs?
  MR. SPEAKER: It must be done at a proper time and not by irregular Questions.

  Dublin Castle Orderlies.
  MR, SLOAN: I bag to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of Royal Irish Constabulary men at present employed as orderlies or messengers in Dublin Castle; what is the total amount paid to them per annum, together with the amount given as extra pay; and if he can say for what reason Army Reserve men are not employed in this class of work the same as in other Government Departments.
  MR. WYNDHAM: There are seven Constabulary orderlies or messengers in receipt of pay and allowances amounting to £596 per annum. The employment of members of a police force as orderlies at the headquarters of the force is in accordance with universal practice, and there is no objection to the employment of police pensioners as messengers in any Government Department.
  MR. SLOAN: Is there any objection to employing Army Reserve men on these duties?
  MR.WYNDHAM: No.
  MR. SLOAN: Then why not do so?

  Irish Pauper Lunatics.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the practice of taking lunatics to the workhouses without first having them certified by a medical practitioner or examined by a magistrate as prescribed by law; and, if so, will he say under what circumstances it is permissible to admit such cases without the necessary safeguards to the safety of the persons; and will instructions be given for the carrying out of the law in this respect.
  MR. WYNDHAM: A person of unsound mind, who is prima facia destitute, is entitled to be admitted to a workhouse. It is not legally necessary that he shall be certified by a medical practitioner or examined by a magistrate before admission. But such a person may, after admission, be transferred to a lunatic asylum if the circumstances justify the transfer.

  Irish Deaf and Dumb Children.
  MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he means to deal this session with the question of extending to Ireland the provisions regarding deaf and dumb children which have been in force in England for several years past, and under which a sum of £37,090 for deaf, blind, and defective children in England has been placed on the Estimates for the current year, while no grant is made for such a purpose in Ireland.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I hope to be able to deal with this mailer by legislation dining the present session, but I cannot at present give a pledge.

  Wexford Fishery Piers.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if, in view of the fact that fishing piers require to be constructed or repaired at Courtown, Poulduff, Black water, Kilmore, Dun-cannon, and other places in county Wexford, and that these works will entail a very large expenditure, he will enable the county of Wexford to obtain the benefits of the Marine Works Act.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have nothing at present to add to my reply to the hon. Baronet's previous Question of the 28th March† on this subject.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: I will repeat the Question a month hence.

  Irish Board of Works Finance.
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-.Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can arrange that receivable orders for payments to the Board of Works in Ireland may be paid into the Board of Works account through other banks than the Bank of Ireland.
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I will endeavour to arrange that in these cases the receivable order shall bear a note (as Land Commission receivable orders already do) to the effect that lodgment
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxii., 848.
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  may be made at any bank for advice to the Bank of Ireland.

  Dingle Guardians' Surcharge.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a resolution from the Dingle Board of Guardians demanding a refund of a surcharge wrongly levied against three members of the board by the auditor, Dr. William E. Ellis; and, if so, whether steps will be taken to have this matter inquired into and the surcharge remitted.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Local Government Board is unable to identify the surcharge referred to upon the information given in the Question. I have asked the hon. Member for further details.

  Cleggan Harbour, Connemara.
  MR. O'MALLEY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state when the work in connection with the improvement of the Cleggan Harbour, Connemara, is to be started.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Government communicated further information to the Treasury in respect of this work on Saturday last. The necessary authority to proceed with the work will be issued, it is expected, without delay.
  MR. O'MALLEY: Can the work be started next month?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I trust so.

  Rae Estate, County Kerry.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Rae Estate, Keel, county Kerry, has been in the Land Judge's Court during twenty years; and that several offers to purchase were made by the tenants, while the receiver in each case prevented sale; and whether, considering all that the tenants have suffered during the past ten years in law costs and evictions, steps will be taken to get the Congested Districts Board to purchase the estate as soon as possible.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Congested Districts Board will consider the question of the purchase of this estate. It is not at present in the Land Judge's Court.

  Crown and Quit Rents in Ireland.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the total amount of money received from Crown and quit rents in Ireland; whether he is aware that the Council of Agriculture on last Tuesday unanimously passed a resolution requesting that the sum now funded in the Bank of Ireland should be allocated to provide the nucleus of a grant to establish a Forestry Department in Ireland; and whether he will favourably consider this suggestion.
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH: I am not yet in a position to give the figures to 31st March, 1904. The figures to 31st March, 1903, were given to the hon. Member on the 10th ultimo † The application of the money referred to is regulated by Statute, and there is no power to apply it as suggested in the Question.
  MR. KILBRIDE: Is not the tithe rent charge the property of the Irish people and is it true that it is redeemed at sixteen or seventeen years purchase?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Irish Agricultural Department Staff.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant a Return of the officials transferred under the Agricultural and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899, from the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council to the Department of Agriculture, giving the names, amount of salaries prior to transfer, and present salaries.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have no information before me that a Return of the character mentioned would satisfy any useful public object, and I am unable, therefore, to grant it. A Return was recently laid
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxi., 729.
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  on the Table [No. 21 of this session] giving the names and emoluments of all permanent officers on the establishment of the Department. This Return sets forth the names of the officials mentioned in the Question and their salaries in May last.

  Tipperary Urban Council Surcharges.
  MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Court of King's Bench recently quashed the surcharges made against the Tipperary Urban Council, but made no order awarding costs to the auditor; will he explain why, under the circumstances, the auditor's solicitor presses for payment of them; and will he take steps to protect the council and the ratepayers in this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Section 12 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1871, provides that an auditor shall defend a surcharge impeached in the Court of King's Bench "and shall be reimbursed all such costs and charges as he may incur in such defence out of the rates which the governing body of the town interested in the decision of the question have power to make, unless the said Court make an Order to the contrary." No such Order was made by the Court in the present instance.

  Royal Irish Academy of Music.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the number of pupils at the Royal Irish Academy of Music in Dublin is now about 400 and that the present building is insufficient to accommodate the number of pupils; whether his attention has been drawn to the annual reports for many years past in which this want of accommodation has been repeatedly referred to, and especially to the Address presented to the Lord-Lieutenant on the occasion of his visit to the Academy on 16th December, 1903; and whether, in view of the fact that the present College of Science in St. Stephen's Green will not be required when the proposed new College of Science has been erected and that the general introduction of singing as a compulsory subject throughout the schools of

  389
  Ireland will largely increase the number of pupils in the Academy in the near future, he will favourably consider the claim of the Academy to be housed in this building.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Representations have been made to Government to the effect mentioned in the first part of the Question. With respect to the proposal that the building at present occupied by the Royal College of Science should be granted to the Royal Irish Academy of Music, I would point out that the building will be required by the College of Science for some years to come and until the new buildings are completed. The question whether, when no longer required for this or other public purposes, the existing building can be made available for the housing of the Academy is one entirely for the Treasury, but I understand that the Treasury can hold out no hope that this will be done.

  Irish Agricultural Grants.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an; annual grant is paid by the Agricultural in Department in Ireland to the North-East Agricultural Association; and, if so, will he state the amount of said grant; and what is the character of the services rendered by that body to the farmers of Ulster.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No direct grant is made to the Association by the Department. But county committees are empowered to grant out of their funds, to which the Department contributes, a subsidy for the purposes of live stock schemes,. and in pursuance of this authority the county committees of Down and Antrim have made grants to the Association of £80 and £60, respectively. The Department recognises the Society's show for bulls and boars as one of the principal shows in Ulster.

  Teaching of the Irish Language
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the circular dealing with the teaching of Irish
  390
  as an extra subject in Irish national schools has yet been withdrawn.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The circular of January last has been modified by a further circular issued on 21st March, the effect of which was explained in my reply to the hon. Member's Question of the 8th March.†
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that inspectors, in calculating attendances made at instruction given in Irish as an extra subject in ordinary national schools, will only give credit for two lessons each week to each pupil, even though the pupil may have attended five; whether they are instructed by the Board to do this; and whether there is a published rule on this subject.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The rule governing payment for Irish as an extra subject is No. 214 (k) of the published Code. In answer to the first part of the Question the hon. Gentleman has apparently overlooked my reply to the similar inquiry addressed to me on the 28th March by the hon. Member for South Kerry.‡

  Labourers' Cottages.
  MR. POWER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, when a particular site for a cottage and plot, under the Labourers Acts, has been selected by the district council and approved of by the Local Government Board and included in the Provisional Order, it is the practice of the Local Government Board to allow such site to be altered by the district council at the request of the occupier or owner of the land without any assent of the labourer named as the specific instance in the representation on which the site was included in the Provisional Order; and whether the Local Government Board gives its assent to such alteration generally on the request of the district council to that effect, and without any direct inquiry as to the suitability of the site proposed to be
  † See (4) Debates, cxxxi., 460.
  ‡ See (4) Debates, cxxxii., 850.

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  substituted for the site originally approved of.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Board is required by Section 16 of the Act of 1886 to consider only the object ions and wishes of the owner, lessee, and occupier of the lands. The assent of the labourer named in the representation is not essential. An exchange of site is not authorised unless the Board is satisfied that the new site is as suitable as that originally proposed. Evidence on this point is obtained from the engineer to the district council or from the Board's inspector.

  Irish Department of Agriculture.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to (he Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Department of Agriculture in Ireland have not in any way consulted the local technical committees with regard to their new directory, the subjects to be included, those to be excluded, the regulations and conditions under which the work is to be carried on, or any one of all the matters that go to make up a directory; and, if so, will he state what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The proposals of the Department in respect of the revision of the regulations under which Science and Art Grants are made to schools other than day secondary schools were duly considered by the Board of Technical Instruction as representative of the various local authorities in Ireland. Any change in the regulations is subject to the sanction of the Treasury, and the Department is about to communicate with the Treasury on the subject.

  Alleged Assault by a Galway Constable.
  MR. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a man named Michael Rattigan, of Benmore, Clonfad, county Roscommon, has complained that on the evening of the 17th of March last, near Dunmore, in county Galway, he was assaulted by a constable of the Royal Irish Constabulary and rendered unconscious by a baton stroke, that his
  392
  assailant was in the company of Sergeant Kirby and two other constables, that whilst unconscious he was conveyed to the police barracks where he was attended by a doctor, but he is still under medical treatment, that he had been visited at his home by the district inspector, and that he and his father were refused any information by the district inspector and sergeant as to the name of the constable who struck him; and, if so, will he say whether there has been any investigation into the matter, and, if so, with what result, and whether the name of the constable will be supplied and a prosecution instituted.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This man was found lying unconscious on the road by Sergeant Kirby and three constables. He soon became conscious, and, for his own protection, was brought to the barracks and allowed to sit at the kitchen fire till the following morning when he was taken away. No doctor attended him at the barracks, but I believe he visited a doctor afterwards. Rattigan made no complaint of having been assaulted by the police. He made an information in which he swore he does not remember having been struck by any person. The county and district inspectors were unable to procure any evidence of identification. The only mark upon him, when found, was a slight abrasion at the back of the head, which, in the opinion of the doctor, was caused by a fall. It is of course open to Rattigan to proceed against the police, but no evidence is forthcoming to enable the authorities to institute proceedings as suggested.

  North Tipperary Technical Instruction Classes.
  MR. P.J. O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received a resolution of the Agricultural and Technical Instruction Committee of Borrisokane, North Tipperary, calling on him to have the order of the Local Government Board revoked which prevents the committee from having the use of a room in the workhouse for instruction in cookery, laundry, and domestic economy for the young women of Borrisokane rural districts, pointing out the inconvenience

  393
  resulting from this order, and the consequent disorganisation of their classes; and, if so, will he see his way, in the interest of the development of technical instruction, to have this order revoke.
  MR. WYNDHAM: It was recently decided by a Court of law that if the Local Government Board permitted the use of a workhouse for any purpose unconnected with the administration of the Poor Laws, it would be liable to an injunction. The Board, in the circumstances, is preclude I from sanctioning the proposal in question.

  Marquess of Lansdowne's Luggacurren Estate.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the evicted tenants on the Luggacurren Estate of the, Marquess of Lansdowne have lodged with the Estates Commissioners the forms provided fur the purpose of supplying particulars of their cases; a d, if so, what reply or communication, if any, has been made to them; have the Estates Commissioners received any communication from the landlord or his agent intimating that the Marquess of Lansdowne is prepared to sell either to the new tenants or the evicted tenants; and whether, before the Estates Commissioners advance or sanction the advance of any money for the purpose of purchase on this property, the claims of the evicted tenants for reinstatement will be fully considered.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Forty-one applications have been received by, or on behalf of, ex-tenants on this estate. These will be fully considered in the event of application being made to the Commissioners in respect of the sale of any portion of the estate, and the evicted tenants have been so informed.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Has the Estates Commission received any communication from the landlord or agent intimating the Marquess of Lansdowne's preparedness to sell?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I used the words "in the event of any application being made." I take it that none has been.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: But has no communication been received by the Commission?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I thought my answer covered the whole Question when I said that the Estates Commission were prepared to deal with the matter in the event of any application being made. I will inquire, however, whether there has been any informal communication.
  MR. KILBRIDE: With whom did the Commission communicate? I am one of the evicted tenants and I received no communication.
  MR. DELANY: Seeing that the Marquess of Lansdowne is a member of the Government which brought in the, Bill last session, is he going to sell to the "planters"?
  [No answer was returned.

  Bally boy Artillery Parade Ground.
  MR. CULLINAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a farm on the estate of Lady Pole-Carew, situated at Ballyboy, near Clogheen, county Tipper try, from which Mr. James Kenealy was evicted, is being used as a parade ground by the Royal Artillery stationed in the district; and, if so, will he state under what conditions the War Office took and hold this evicted farm.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Right to manoeuvre and exercise only on Ballyboy farm was let to the Artillery as an accommodation for five months from 1st March last at £1 per month
  MR. CULLINAN: Why did the Government select an evicted farm for the purposes of a parade ground? Have they not plenty of other parade grounds near?

  Gambling in "Futures.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a Select Committee to consider and report upon the prevailing system of gambling in futures options, and warrants, and its effect upon legitimate speculation and bonâ fide trade, especially with regard to

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  foodstuffs, metals, cotton, and other raw materials.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I think I have already stated to the hon. Gentleman and the House that some aspects of this question are being investigated, I understand, by the Commission on Food Supply, and I do not think that without their Report we ought to form any judgment on the broader aspects which the hon. Member raises in his Question.

  Moseley Commission
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Reports of the Moseley Commission will be issued as Parliamentary Papers.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I know of no precedent for the publication of private documents as Parliamentary Papers, and I think it would be hardly wise to make any exception in this case.

  Scottish Congested Districts Act Amendment Bill.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury when he proposes to take the Second Reading of the Congested Districts Act Amendment Bill.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid I cannot fix a day for the Second Reading of this Bill.

  The Valuation Bill.
  MR. TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury when he expects to be able to introduce the Valuation Bill as promised in His Majesty's Gracious Speech.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Bill is ready, but I cannot name a day for its introduction.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Has the Leader of the House any announcement to make as to business?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, Sir. As the House knows, we are going to introduce
396
the Budget Bill to-morrow and it will be convenient, and in accordance with precedent, to ask it to suspend the Twelve O'clock Rule, as it is necessary in the public interest that on the first night of the Budget certain Resolutions should be passed. If we are fortunate enough to-morrow to get all the Budget Resolutions, I shall put down Supply, Class l, for Thursday, but, if not, the discussion on the Budget will be continued on Thursday. The Licensing Bill stands for Wednesday.
MR. LOUGH: May I ask whether the proceedings tomorrow will be much prolonged after midnight if the subject of the Budget should prove to be very contentious.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The length of the discussion rests at least as much with the hon. Gentleman and his friends as with the Government.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: May I ask whether, as is usual, a general discussion will be taken on the Budget, on one of the Resolutions.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have not consulted the precedents, but the House may take it that I do not wish to restrict their habitual liberties in regard to the subject.
SIR HENRY FOWLER: Why is it necessary to get any Budget Resolution on the first night if no new taxation is imposed; and, if so, what is the Resolution?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If it can be shown that it is not necessary to take any Resolution on Tuesday, the right hon. Gentleman can make his representations at the proper time.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Mr. HALSEY reported from the Committee of Selection, That they had discharged the following Members from the Standing Committee on Law, and Courts of Justice, and Legal Procedure: Mr. Arthur Elliot and Mr. Lloyd Morgan; and had appointed in substitution Mr. Yerburgh and Mr. Herbert Lewis.
Report to lie upon the Table.

IRISH VALUATION ACTS.
Report from the Select Committee with Minutes of Evidence, brought up and read.
Report to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 130.]

NEW BILL.
  POOR LAW MEDICAL OFFICERS' (IRELAND) SUPERANNUATION BILL.
  "To provide Superannuation for Poor Law Medical Officers in Ireland," presented by Mr. T. W. Russell; supported by Mr. Harrington and Dr. Thompson; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 28th April, and to be printed. [Bill 154.]

SUPPLY (CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES).
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
MR. NANNETTImoved, "That, in the opinion of this House, the system of primary education in Ireland is fundamentally defective, and has proved injurious in its operation." He said it was clear that all the schools for primary education in Ireland were antiquated and inadequate, and complaints came from north, south, east, and west as to the deficiences of the system. At the recent conference, held at the Mansion House, of managers and teachers this question had the primary place, as the first resolution carried was as follows—
"We believe, that no system of secondary, technical, or higher education can ever be successful unless a thorough and sound foundation be laid in the primary schools, that the primary schools in this country are in most instances unsuitable for accomplishing this object, being defective in sanitation, equipment, staffing, heating, and accommodation, end in their general attractiveness and comfort. We are, therefore, of the opinion that these defects must be remedied immediately if any real educational advancement is to be looked for."
The statements in this Resolution had since been repeated, in an authoritative document laid upon the Table of this
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House, by Mr. Dale, the gentleman appointed by the Chief Secretary to investigate the condition of the primary schools on behalf of the Government. Irish Members were determined, as far as primary education was concerned, that this system should not be allowed to go: on without a serious protest. It might be asked how were they to bring about a reform of that system. His only answer to that question would be, by reforming the whole system. He wished to draw attention to the authority to which the education of the children of Ireland was committed. That authority was known as the National Board of Education. It consisted of twenty gentlemen, ten representing Catholics and ten Protestants. It was not necessary for him to go into the names of those gentlemen, because every person acquainted with the educational question in Ireland was familiar with their names. While he admitted that those gentlemen might be very good citizens, he wished to ask had they the confidence of the people of Ireland? Did they represent education in any manner or capacity? They were not an elected but a selected body. They were anti-Irish in their tendency, and if the education of the children who were to he the future manhood and womanhood of Ireland was to be placed upon a satisfactory footing the whole system of education would have to be changed, and all those gentlemen now sitting on that Board would have to be replaced by educationists who had a thorough grasp of the needs of education in Ireland. Primary education would have to be made such as would appeal to the people of Ireland, and under the rule of the present board that was absolutely impossible. Something would have to be done to make the schools more attractive to the children. The children would have to be attracted to, instead of being repelled from, the schools as they were at the present time. Unless this was done the Irish child would make very little educational progress. They could not escape the conditions of their day, and they had to face the competition of the civilised world. How-was it possible for the children of Ireland to do this if in their early days they were denied the

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advantages of good primary education? At the present time their schools were in such a state that (hey were absolutely prejudicial to the health and comfort of the children.
With regard to the staffing of the schools they should be made so efficient that the teachers would not have to face an impossible task. There were two classes of schools in Ireland, namely, the vested and the non-vested schools. The non-vested schools were each in the hands of a manager. He knew of an instance in a very poor district where the manager had been called upon to provide new equipment and materials, and the result was that the teacher had been deprived of his salary. Who were the sufferers? Why, the unfortunate children attending the school who, between the two, were the victims, for they would not get the opportunity of learning that for which the school was supposed to exist. The president of the Teachers' Congress, speaking on this point, said—
"With the scanty appliances now available, it is extremely difficult for even the ablest teachers in most of our schools to produce excellent results. In too many instances, rather than allow his skill and energy to remain unproductive, the teacher, out of his limited income, has to supply the means of carrying on his work. It is a grave reproach to a system which allows this injustice to he perpetrated. It is impossible for them to give efficient teaching under present conditions."
Those were the views of the president of the Teachers' Congress which showed that the teachers were fully alive to the importance of this question, and they called upon the Government to provide a remedy in order that they might discharge their duties in a proper manner. The hon. Member for South Antrim said last year that in his opinion the Chief Secretary for Ireland ought to take up the question of the state of the national schools in Ireland because even in the North of Ireland the schools were not lit places for the children to he confined in; and he also complained of the bad ventilation of the schools, and said that more playgrounds ought to be provided. Such was the opinion of the representative of what they were led to believe was the prosperous North. In the matter of education he was afraid the North suffered just as much as the South. He would also like
400
to give the opinion of a Protestant headmaster who had made this statement—
"The majority are extremely unsatisfactory and quite unsuitable for teaching purposes. In hundreds of cases, especially in rural districts, the floors are earthen, and the roofs so bad that the rain is freely admitted. There is no local: aid as in England and Scotland for keeping the schoolhouses in repair, for heating and cleaning them, and for equipping them. All this responsibility devolves on the local manager who really cannot get funds for these purposes. In most cases the managers do what they can, but very frequently the burden of repairs, heating, equipping, etc., falls upon the teacher."
In order to educate the children the teachers of Ireland were prepared to make these great monetary sacrifices. They had recently had the. Report of Mr. Dale on the condition of the schools of Ireland which must be fresh in the minds of many hon. Members, and he did not intend to quote very much from that Report. He rather preferred to give the opinions of teachers who lived in Ireland and who were as much conversant with the defects and the conditions of the schools in Ireland as Mr. Dale. The evidence of the teachers proved that the National Board and the Government had allowed this state of things to go on for such a number of years that it was high time that something should be done to put a stop to it. Dr. Moran, speaking of the Belfast schools in the report for the year 1900, said—
"Out offices, instead of being an advantage, are in some instances a dangerous source of disease and death."
Mr. Hynes, writing of the Dublin schools in 1900 said—
"There are a good many which are defective in one or more of the following essentials—space, lighting, ventilation."
Mr. Ross (Newry District, 1900) said—
"The most common defects are badly chosen sites, insufficiency or absence of playgrounds, and objectionable sanitary arrangements. In seven instances, schools attended by children of both sexes are without privies."
Dr. Alexander (Cork District, 1899) said—
"The ventilation of the class rooms is often very imperfect. The great majority of schools are by no means as efficiently equipped as is desirable."…"In many schools I found no tire even when the weather was very cold."
Dr. Beatty (Newtownards District, 1899) said—
"Another most serious defect arises from the almost indecent, and with little doubt insanitary position of the out-offices. Their restricted

401
use is sowing the seeds of disease in after life."…"The school-houses no doubt help the work of disease. I can count up fourteen monitors who have retired through ill-health, and have, I imagine, all since died. Two young monitors employed in an overcrowded school have died within a year."
Those were the views of the inspectors and he was sure they were worthy of credence. He wished to show the House how the Government or the National Board had failed to remedy this state of affairs. The last extract on this subject which he wished to quote was that of the president of the teachers, who, speaking at Belfast this month, said—
"Some of the most serious blots in connection with primary education in this country are undoubtedly the unsuitability of the majority of the school buildings, the wretched condition of the furniture, the lack of the necessary teaching appliances, and the general want of any regular provision for heating and sanitation."
Would the Government disregard the views of these representative men who knew the requirements of education in Ireland? The Chief Secretary, in a debate, which took place recently, threw a slight on the people of Ireland because of their want of education. The right hon. Gentleman was dealing with the question of technical education, and stated that, in consequence of the want of the necessary education, it was impossible to find men in Ireland qualified for that class of teaching. The obvious answer was contained in the reports he had read. Under the circumstances it was no wonder that children, were disinclined to attend the schools in Ireland. In many instances they had to tramp long distances to school. When they got there they were wet and begrimed, and they were often in a famished condition. The schoolhouse was not such as was to be found in England, and it was hard to compel the child to go where the conditions were so uncomfortable. Would the Government permit that state of things to go on much longer? The staffing of the schools also required consideration. The Chief Secretary stated the other night that he would favourably consider the advisability of reducing the average number required to be in attendance, so that there might be a second teacher provided for those schools where the average number at present required could not be obtained.
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At certain seasons of the year when work could be got in the fields teachers had the greatest possible difficulty in getting the children to attend school. A headmaster wrote to him as follows—
"At present one teacher only is allowed in schools with an average attendance of less than sixty. Even with an average of forty, actual attendance sometimes sixty or over, one teacher cannot give anything like effective instruction in seven standards -six and infants—at the same time. The time of the children is wasted, and, what is worse, they acquire the habit of wasting time. There should be a second teacher in every school with an average of forty or above."
Surely this was not unreasonable, especially considering the diminishing population in many districts in Ireland. He hoped the Government would take note of this gentleman's suggestion.
There was another substantial grievance in connection with the educational work in Ireland under the present system. That was in reference to the status and remuneration of the teachers. The average salary of all teachers, principals and assistants, was £80. The salaries of the 4,689 headmasters in Ireland were—twenty-three of these headmasters were paid under £50 a year, 2,751 of these headmasters (nearly (50 per cant.) were paid between £56 and £86 a year, 1,253 of these headmasters were paid between £87 and £116 a year, 420 of these headmasters were paid between £117 and £138 a year, 186 of these headmasters were paid between £139 and £174 a year, fifty-five of these headmasters were paid £175 or over. The salaries of the 3,565 headmistresses in Ireland ware—five of these were paid under £44 a year, 2,286 of these were paid between £44 and £72 a year, 799 of these were paid between £73 and £96 a year, 278 of these were paid between £97 and £113 a year, 197 of these were paid £114 a year or over. All the teachers in Irish national schools were fully qualified and certificated teachers. He wished to contrast these salaries with the remuneration given in England. In this country the average salary of headmasters was £148 17s.; the average salary of headmistresses £98 7s. 10d.; the average salary of assistant masters £108 l1s. 5d.; the average salary of assistant mistresses £78 13;. 7d. In Scotland the average salary of head masters was £175 2s. 9d.; the average salary of headmistresses was

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£85 14s.; the average salary of assistant masters was £115 5s. 10d.; the average salary of assistant mistresses was £70 18s. 8d. He appealed to the Chief Secretary to do something to improve the status of remuneration of teachers in Ireland. As an example of the way in which the Treasury dealt with teachers in Ireland, he would mention a matter which had come to his knowledge in respect of the teachers in model schools. About 1875, the Lords of the Treasury demanded that one-third of the school fees paid by the children attending model schools in Ireland should be handed over to them, and further stipulated with the Commissioners of Education that in case of a diminution in the amount of fees collected the Treasury portion should not fall below £2,000 per annum. At that time the fees collected in model schools amounted to over £7,000 a year, and the balance of £5,000 was divided among the teachers of the respective model schools in proportion to the amounts collected in each. Owing to the Education Act of 1892, which practically abolished school fees in Ireland, the fees in model schools became so reduced that now only the bare £2,000 could be collected, and the Treasury insisted on receiving the entire sum. As a consequence, the teachers in model schools got now not one penny of the fees paid by the public under the belief that they were contributing to the incomes of those who instructed their children. In this way a sum of £56,000 had been levied off Irish parents during the past twenty-eight years. This was a tax imposed on the Irish people without their knowledge, and he was certain if the parents of the children attending these schools knew what became of the fees, they would forthwith refuse to pay them, feeling as they did that they were already so largely overtaxed. Speaking at Belfast a fortnight ago, the president of the teachers said—
"I unhesitatingly declare that the responsibility for the serious defects in our educational system rests entirely on His Majesty's Government. It must be remembered that our system of primary education is a State system; and that everyone connected with the system is directly or indirectly appointed by the State; and, therefore, the duty is cast upon the latter of making adequate provision for the education of the children of Ireland. That duty is rendered still more imperative by the recent
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action of the Government in denying us the money which would relieve a largo portion of our educational needs, and place our schools in a position something nearer towards equality with the primary schools of England and Scotland. You are all aware that the passing of the English Education Act gave an addition of £1,400,000 to the primary schools of England. In accordance with established custom the equivalents of £212,000 and £185,000 became available for Scotland and Ireland respectively. In Scotland the equivalent grant was at once applied to the purposes of primary education; although, as everyone acquainted with the conditions existing in both countries is well aware, the Scotch schools in respect to the buildings themselves, to equipment, heating, staffing, and sanitation, were miles and miles ahead of those of our own unfortunate land. But the crying needs of Irish education were ignored, and the Irish equivalent grant was diverted from its legitimate purpose on the plea that the money could not be usefully applied to the purposes of primary education."
He hoped he had not wearied the House, but he had endeavoured to put his case in the best manner at his disposal. He felt deeply the want of education in Ireland. He knew that if their people were to progress and face the battle of life in competition with other nations they must have more and better education. They did not wish their people to be for ever hewers of wood and drawers of water; but to give them an opportunity, by means of education, to come to this country or go across the Atlantic and enter upon the struggle for existence on equal terms with their fellow citizens.
MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLsaid that his hon. friend who had moved the Motion now before the House had done so in an elaborate and detailed manner in which he did not intend to follow him. It was a matter of satisfaction that the Irish Party had got this opportunity of discussing the education question at so favourable a time as the present; and they should not be doing what was just to, and wise for, their country if they did not descend into both the details and the policy of the Irish educational system. It had been said "Give me the education of the people of a country and I care not what its Government may be." His argument was "Give us the control of the education of our own people and they will be better off: and then our demand for the other will be stronger and assured of success." He

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did not know whether or not that argument would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. He wished to deal with the question of education in Ireland from a broad, national, and progressive point of view; and to show that in the past seventy years, during which the so-called National Board of Education in Ireland had been in existence, no real progress had been made in education; that nothing had been done for the progress of the country; and that the time and money spent on the existing system had been practically wasted. What was the cause of all this? Were the Irish so incapable of benefiting from a properly devised and properly administered system of education? No one who knew the history of the Irish race and the progress which they had made in America and in the British Colonies, where they had a fair field, could say that the failure of the system of the National Education Board was due to the people themselves. Unprejudiced witnesses, including even Mr. Dale, had unanimously come to the conclusion that the failure was due at first to the manner in which Ireland was governed; and to the refusal to give the Irish people some right to control the education of their children. It was from that point of view that he wished to criticise the work of the National Board of Education.
From 1537 to the present year the same undermining policy had been continually adopted in the treatment of education in Ireland—the English Government had sacrificed education to the interest of sectarian strife and supremacy. The Irish Parliament in 1537 established parochial schools all over the country and insisted that the English tongue should be taught in them. An Act of Elizabeth established diocesan schools in every diocese under the direction of the Protestants in Ireland; and then there were the charity schools intended to bring up the poorest and most neglected Catholic children as Protestants. Then there were various societies engaged in the useless task of trying to make converts of Catholics to Protestantism. Those who knew what had been done since the National Education Board was established were perfectly well aware that the same policy had been continued in the national schools as had
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prevailed in the parochial, diocesan and charity schools. Archbishop Whately in his diary wrote:
"The education supplied by the National Education Hoard is gradually undermining the vast fabric of the Irish Roman Catholic Church.'
The Archbishop did sot care whether it was improving the condition of the Irish people. That was not in his mind. What was in his mind was "If we cannot get the Irish children educated in our creed, we give up the only hope of winning the Irish people from Popery." Was it any wonder that the Irish people objected to the existence of a National Education Board whose declared policy that was? But Archbishop Whately added—
"I cannot venture openly to express this opinion."
The hope, that was, of using this means of winning the Irish people from Popery. He had not quoted these words from any idea of embittering controversy between Englishmen and Irishmen on this education question, but to show the necessity of endless vigilance in proving the futility of a policy which sacrificed real education to sectarian purposes. He claimed that while that policy was continued the existing educational system in Ireland could produce no good or fruitful results for the Irish people.
The National Education Board had not only no true educational policy; it had an anti-national policy. In 1841, when the Board was established, four-fifths of the Irish people spoke the Irish language. One would have imagined that, as was done in Wales and in the Highlands of Scotland, and in every country in Europe, the language which the children lisped at their mothers' knees would have been the language used as the medium of education in the schools. But that was not the method of the National Education Board. Because it was the Irish language, and lest its use might foster in the young Irish children a love of their own country, and make them true citizens and loyal to their native land, it was banned; and the only educational system adopted for teaching the children was through the medium of an unknown tongue. Everyone must be aware that such a policy must inevitably have in future generations a most wretched

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effect upon the people on whom it was forced. An authority from the Party opposite, in speaking of that policy of the National Board of Education, used words as strong as could possibly have been employed by any Irish Member. Attacking the lamentable lack of moral fibre on the part of Irish children, that Gentleman said, was it any wonder that the Irish nation had—as, undoubtedly, they had—the characteristics which they exhibited?
"The national factor in Ireland has been studiously eliminated from national education, and Ireland is perhaps the only country in Europe where it was part of the settled policy of those who had guidance of education to ignore the literature, history, arts, and traditions of the people. It was a fatal policy for it obviously tended to stamp their native country in the eyes of Irishmen with the badge of inferiority and to extinguish the sense of healthy self-respect which comes from the consciousness of high national ancestry and traditions. This policy dulled the intelligence of the people, impaired their interest in their own surroundings, stimulated emigration by teaching them to look on other countries as more agreeable places to live in, and made Ireland a social desert."
The same author said further—
"Nothing is more evident to the student of Danish education, or I might add of the excellent system of the Christian Brothers in Ireland, than that one of the secrets of their success is to be found of their national basis, and their foundation upon the history and literature of the country."
The Irish people were now determined to tolerate this national insult no longer. They meant to insist on getting educational systems which would draw forth all that was best in their race, which would give character as well as information. The Gaelic League, during the ten years of its existence, had done more for the interests of education, for the true advancement of the nation, than all the Boards that ever cursed their country. It had awakened an enthusiasm which would not tamely submit to insult; and even Sir Horace Plunkett would find that the Irish people would have sufficient moral fibre to insist that Irish education should henceforth be national and administered by themselves. The system imposed on them over severity years ago, and continued unaltered ever since, should now be able to show exceptional results to justify its continued existence. On the contrary it had been a hopeless and
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disastrous failure, and, if even the semblance of justice was to be done them, if their country was not to be kept for ever in the background, radical changes must be immediately effected. Education, from the national school to the University, must be nationalised—both as to control and curriculum.
A foreigner at first sight would think from the number of boards of titled, men who were charged with the educational welfare of Ireland that it should be the most progressive nation on earth. They had the National Board, the Intermediate Board, the Local Government Board, the Technical Education Board, the governing bodies of the Queen's Colleges, the Senate of the two Universities all charged with giving good education out of the public funds, each board independent of the other, and all independent of the Irish people and even of this. House. The Irish parent whose, child's future was at stake, whose taxes supported the whole fabric, whose country's welfare and prosperity were concerned, was given no voice or control whatever. Such a state of things could not be paralleled in any country in Europe. In this twentieth century it would be a disgrace, to the government of the Czar. England, Scotland, and Wales had long ago left this antiquated stage. In America, in France, in Germany, the greatest public interest was taken, and public control given, in the education of the young. Public men, ministers of religion, parents, all united in interest and zeal for their proper training. The father felt that his children were his greatest charge, that it was his duty to fit them for life's battle. He felt that this could only be done by giving them, while at school, such a training as would lay open to them all the fruits of knowledge, and therefore it was that, in those countries, no cost was spared in getting the best possible teachers and in equipping the schools suitably for their great work. It was ungenerous and absurd to charge the Irish people with taking no interest in the education of their own children when by law they were practically excluded from this part of a free citizen's national duty. The same charge was made when technical education was administered from South Kensington. Yet how great

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had been the interest aroused, how widespread the desire to devote the rates to this important branch, since control was given to the people. There were no people who valued education more than the Irish, none would more cheerfully give their time and money for so laudable a purpose as the Irish people; yet of all European nations they alone were denied this elementary right. The time had arrived to remedy this indefensible unconstitional anachronism. Irresponsible hoards must be swept away and one central authority responsible to the people put in their place. Much money was yearly wasted by the system which prevailed at present of one board acting independently of the other. Why should primary, secondary, technical, and University education be carried on in watertight compartments? Why could not one education authority unite the functions of all, giving at the same time large local control and encouraging local initiative? Why could they not de-vise one scheme leading from the national school to the University, so as to draw forth the rich native talent of the Irish peasant, at present lying dormant because of his poverty and lack of effort? The system of nominated boards had proved a disastrous failure in Ireland. Nobody could now defend it. There was nothing to justify its continued existence.
Mr. Dale's Report was more sweeping in its condemnation than the most advanced Irish Member had ever been. He saw nothing but schools badly built, wretchedly equipped, insanitary and cheerless, children shivering in the winter with no lire to warm them, teachers poorly paid and with poorer prospects of promotion or recognition of service, and, what was most important in this Report, he recognised that neither teachers, managers, nor people were to blame for this deplorable state of things, but rather the system which centred all authority in Dublin and deprived the nation of all power whatever. This Report, read side by side with the eleven volumes on the educational systems of Europe and America published under the direction of Mr. Sadler, showed a state of things in Ireland which no English Government, pretending to take any interest in the future welfare of
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that country, could contemplate without feeling that they had hopelessly failed in their duty. They made the Irishman feel that so far had his country b3en kept behind the rest of the world through being denied proper systems of education, that nothing but the most enthusiastic application on the part of the people, guided and encouraged by a fostering Irish Parliament, could ever repair the mischief of the past. A change, revolutionary and immediate, was required. The whole system should be torn up by the roots and education from the national school to the University placed on a proper basis. The systemscould not beconsidered apart. They reacted and interacted on each other, and that scheme would be most successful where they were all considered as part of one whole. The influence of the University helped to supply good teachers, while the good teachers afterwards supplied good University students, and thus from the lowest to the highest class was felt the influence of University training. As it was in the prim try school that five-sixths of their boys got their first and only education it was evident that this must be for them their University. If this school was badly managed, if the teaching given therein was of a low order, it was a poor consolation for them to know that the children of their richer neighbours could get University education in Dublin.
How were they to get the blessings of University education? They could not all send their children away. He would make two suggestions, which, if carried out, would, to his mind, go very far towards bringing the University to every man's door. He would place the teaching profession on an equality with other professions in this country, give them an equally high educational training and give them a salary commensurate with the importance of the work they had to discharge. He would remodel the present system of training teachers, and would give the teacher a position in the University which would enable him to avail himself of all the social and intellectual advantages which were amongst the greatest boons of University training. He would do everything in his power to fit him—and it was a difficult and slow process to train a competent teacher—for the very important work of shaping the youth of the

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nation. President Garfield said of Professor Hopkins of Williams College, where Garfield was a student, that "he considered it a liberal education to sit at one end of a log with Mack Hopkins at the other." So it was with every true teacher. His influence in forming the character, in shaping the destiny of those who came under his control was a thing which could scarcely be realised. They spent £54,000 a year on training Irish teachers who got no opportunities of the University training as in Scotland or America. Half the Scotch teachers were University graduates. Everybody was aware that the system of educating one particular class or profession entirely apart from the general education and wide contact given in a University was educationally unsound, and tended to produce characteristics which did not mark a "liberal education." Professor Munsterberg of Harvard University, writing in 1900, said—
"That was the secret of German schools; the most elementary teaching was given by men who were experts in their field, whose scholarly interest filled them with an enthusiasm that inspired the class. To bring that condition about must be the aim of every friend of American school life. That is the one great reform which is needed, and till this burning need is removed, it is useless to put forward unimportant changes. Just as it has been said that war requires three things—money, money, and again money—So it can be said with much greater truth that education needs not forces and buildings, nor pedagogy and demonstrations, but only men, men, and again men. The right kind of men is what the schools need; they need teachers whose interest in the subject would banish all drudgery."
Professor Russell, of Columbia University, said—
"No one will deny that the interests of public education are as great and as urgent as the interests of law, medicine, or engineering. The University is true to itself, therefore, when it undertakes the professional training of teachers."
These eminent authorities recognised the essential factor of progress in national education to be the well-trained teacher. If he had availed himself of University training he dispensed his knowledge, and, what was more important, his culture and character, to those who were entrusted to his care.
The second point to which he wished to direct attention, and by means of which he hoped to further facilitate the advance
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of the clever, but poor, boy, trained under the teacher he had described, was a scheme of county scholarships which would give free admission to, and a free education in, the University. To do this thoroughly he would establish in suitable centres, say the central town of three or more adjoining parishes, a higher national school. The teachers in those schools should be, of course, University graduates of distinction. To every primary school within those parishes, he would allocate one, two, or three scholarships to be competed for yearly, the winners to have free entrance to the higher national school. The pupils of those higher schools would compete for the county scholarships giving free admission to the University, or to the technical college attached thereto.
If permitted he would now sum-marise what he had just said and put | to the Chief Secretary what he considered the most important points. He had proved that the present sys- tern should not go on any longer, it had ruined and blighted the men of Ireland and kept them fifty or a hundred years behind the rest of the world, and no reason could be brought forward for its continuance. What was to be submitted for it? The Chief Secretary and his colleagues took on themselves the right to govern Ireland, and said the Irish were better off now than they had ever been. But if he might express an opinion he would say that the Government of Ireland by this House stood condemned by its attitude to the education of that country. In every other civilised country in the world the people had the right of managing the education of their children, and the possession of that right created an interest in, and awakened an enthusiasm for, education which were of the greatest value. Why should Irishman be refused that right? In America they had not proved to be incapable of administering education or of benefiting by it. Their capacity could not be denied, and the Government which held them to be unworthy, itself stood hopelessly condemned. Education in Ireland required to be nationalised and modernised; nominated boards should be swept away; the people should be granted the

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right of training their children; primary, secondary, technical and University education should be so coordinated as to bring it within the reach of all children with the necessary ability to profit by it. It was equally essential that the position of the teacher should be raised in importance, that his salary and prospects should be enlarged, and his training connected with the national University. To carry out these reforms and to repair the consequences of past neglect it would be necessary for a considerable sum to be spent on education in Ireland, far more than would be her proportionate share as compared with England and Scotland, a demand the justice of which could easily be proved. Steps should be taken to teach the Irish language as a compulsory subject, to inculcate patriotism, civic duties and responsibilities, love of home and fatherland; to banish corporal punishment; and to pay more attention to the formation of character than to the mere giving of information. Suitable playgrounds should be established in connection with every school, special facilities afforded for the retirement of men who had grown old in service under the present system, and the initial salary of £56 a year increased so as to attract younger and better men. Finally, boys and girls ought to be taught together as was the ease in America and as used to be the case in Ireland. All authority in America heal come to the conclusion that the greatest possible advantages accrued to the nation by the co-education of the children. The young men were less rough and more courteous, the girls were, more virile, and from a moral point of view the most excellent results were achieved. He hoped that at last Ireland would be relieved of the system of nominated boards which had wrought so much evil in the past, and that Irish parents would be granted the elementary right of assisting to train their own children. It was often alleged that Irishmen were incapable of filling positions in Ireland, or abroad, because of their lack of education, but if the taunt were justified it was the fault not of Irishmen but of the English Government. A heavy responsibility would rest on Parliament if it continued a system which had produced such wretched
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results in a people who were anxious to secure, and capable of benefiting by, the full advantages of education. He begged to second the Motion.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out from the word 'that' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words in the opinion of this House, the system of Primary Education in Ireland is fundamentally defective, and has proved injurious in its operation.'"—(Mr. Nannetti.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
SIR JOHN GORSTsaid it was impossible for the House of Commons not to sympathise with the demand for a proper system of education in Ireland. As far as education went, he did not think the record of the English Government was a very creditable one, and unless they took steps to legislate for the needs of Ireland in this respect Parliament would show a singular indifference to the valuable asset which the Empire possessed in the peculiar qualities of the Irish people if only they were properly developed and trained. He hoped, therefore, that the debate would result in serious steps being taken to give to Ireland similar opportunities to those now enjoyed by England, Wales, and Scotland. But when one passed from the general demand and light of the Irish people to the desirability of reforming the present system, it was necessary to step with the greatest diffidence and caution. He knew enough about education to be aware that it must be adapted to the peculiarities, and even to the prejudice, of the people it was intended to benefit, and that it was impossible to force one rigid system upon all the peoples inhabiting the various parts of the United Kingdom. If he might make one or two general remarks as to the principles on which Irish education should be conducted, he would say that the first thing was to bring it under popular control. At present it was impossible for any body of Members to exercise any influence over the matter, inasmuch as, under the present system, Irish education was taken entirely out of Parliamentary control. The Lord Advocate had to answer the

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criticisms made in this House on behalf of the Scottish Education Department, but when they came to Irish education the Chief Secretary for Ireland had to answer for the National Board of Education. Considerably more than ten years ago he was invited to visit one of the most admirable chools he ever saw in any part of the world, and it was a school for poor boys at Cork. It was admirable in every way and the teaching and discipline were excellent. It was a school conducted by the Christian Brothers, and, although a debate took place in the House of Commons upon the question, the then Chief Secretary was obliged to state that he was unable to grant this admirable school full assistance from the fund for Irish education.
He wished to impress upon the Chief Secretary that in any scheme brought forward for remodelling Irish education they ought to put a stop to the multiplicity of boards in Ireland. There were, at present, three great boards in Ireland administering education, namely, the National Board of Education, which dealt with elementary education; the Intermediate Education Board, which dealt with what was called in this country secondary education; and the Board for Technical Education. The work of these three boards was so closely connected that it was quite impossible to have a proper system unless the three were amalgamated. The principle of technical education was one which should provide the whole of the instruction from the kindergarten to the University, and the elementary school could not be properly carried on unless the principle of technical instruction, and the supervision of the persons versed in technical instruction, was made use of during the whole course of elementary training. Elementary education ought to lead directly on to intermediate, and it was absolutely essential that these three kinds of education should not be kept in water-tight compartments with no connection the one with the other.
Another thing they required in Ireland was the encouragement and establishment of some kind of local interest in education. That was one of the great advantages of the English Act of 1870, for it aroused in every part of the country a keener
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local interest in education. That local interest had always been the key-stone of the Scottish system. The reason why Scotch education had been so successful and why it was so far ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom, was that there had always been in Scotland a greater local interest taken in education. In those parts of England where there had formerly existed this local interest, and where the parents had taken an interest in education, the schools were the best and there they made the best use of those schools. No doubt one difficulty in applying the system of England and Scotland to Ireland was the extreme poverty of the people. In England three-fourths of the cost of education was paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and one-fourth out of the local rates. He believed that something like the same proportion was contributed in Scotland, but he did not think they ought to ask the people of Ireland to pay as much as one-fourth. If some official body was formed responsible for the general direction of the education of the district, he did not think they needed to despair because the people were incapable of bearing a substantial part of the cost of education. He had been very much struck by what he had read of something that was done sixty years ago in a small parish in Somersetshire, which contained a population of 1,125, composed almost entirely of agricultural labourers receiving between 6s. and 9s. a week, which was about the same rate of wages as was now being paid in some of the districts in Ireland. There were no rich people in that parish, and yet the rector, by enlisting the interest of the people, succeeded in establishing a most remarkable model school supported entirely by the small Government grant and the fees of those poor people. He succeeded in establishing in that school a system of education something like that which sixty years afterwards they were striving to obtain with the assistance of all the inspectors and machinery of the Education Department. But although Ireland was very poor, and although it might be incapable of giving any considerable rate aid to the elementary schools that was no reason why a local interest should not be created. They could have excellent schools in a poor parish with a keen local interest, and

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quite as efficient as the schools in an indifferent parish where they might have a considerable sum to support education out of the rates. There was another thing which should be considered by the Irish people and their representatives, namely, that there was a considerable body of opinion which held that the cost of education should be an Imperial and not a local charge. There ought to be a very small margin of the mere local cost of administration and so on, which ought to fall upon the locality, and the great bulk of the cost should fall upon the Imperial funds on the ground that education was a national and not a local concern. What he wished to impress upon the House was that they should not wait for the possibility of exacting local contributions before they took some measures to secure local responsibility and interest in education.
Perhaps the House would think he was going beyond his province if he criticised in any detail the Report which had recently been made by Mr. Dale. Mr. Dale was a gentleman who, from his long experience, knew the state of the schools in this country, and nobody could be more qualified to report upon the Irish schools. His Report was perfectly conclusive that there was in Ireland a great defect in the education, that it was not at all up to the English standard, that it was not what it ought to be, and that it was absolutely necessary, in common justice to the Irish nation, that it should be brought up to the English standard as soon as possible. He should like to call the attention of the House to what was stated in the Report as to the great superiority of the convent schools, and of the Protestant schools which were managed on the same sort of principles. There they had a very valuable local agency in Ireland which was possessed only to a very small extent in England and scarcely at all in Scotland. As the Irish idea of an educational system might differ very largely from that in this country, it might be a question whether more use might not be made of those Irish schools, and whether some part of the Irish educational system could not be applied to them. He was particularly struck ten years ago by those Christian Brothers' schools, some of
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which he saw in Cork. He was told, and he believed it was true, that they had succeeded in establishing in the cities and the great centres of population in Ireland schools which really got hold of the young people of the Roman Catholic religion. There were very few Protestants in them, but their doors were not shut to them. These schools got hold of the Roman Catholic children, and brought them up in a way in which no other institution in Ireland had ever succeeded in doing. A respected Member of this House, who was brought up in a Christian Brothers' school, was a distinguished ornament of the House in his time. If some system of that sort were adopted it would give a very excellent body of local managers more interested in education than perhaps any other, because they were interested on religious grounds. It was part of their religion to carry on these schools and to do the best they could for the children. He, therefore, rose to say that he thought there ought to be a real root-and-branch reform of Irish education, and he was quite sure that all Parties in the House—not only Irish but English and Scotch Members—would do their best to help the Irish people to have a really proper and valuable scheme established. That scheme should be one responsible to Parliament, and the Department which had charge in Ireland of education should undertake the whole education of Ireland—elementary, intermediate, and technical—and should be responsible to this House for the mode in which the money voted by this House was expended. The responsibility for the organisation and administration of elementary education should be entrusted to some Irish body either elected by, or representative of, the people, with responsibility in the first instance to the Irish Education Department, and therefore to this House, and in the second place to the people of the locality out of which it was chosen. He was quite sure that any system of that kind—a really good Irish educational system—whether it led to Home Rule or not, would certainly lead to the Irish people being happier, and to the development of those extraordinary talents they possessed, and which were so valuable an asset to the people of the United Kingdom. Whether

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it ended in Home Rule or not, it would end in making a much happier Ireland, and in much greater credit to the United Kingdom.
MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he only rose to intervene for a few moments in the debate, and he must state to the House his reason for speaking now. First of all, he wished to thank the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken for the interesting, valuable, and sympathetic speech he had made and for which they were all most grateful, and he thought that the representatives of the Irish people in this House who had been for so many long years preaching the doctrine of reform in primary education in vain, had reason to congratulate themselves upon the position in which they stood at the present moment; because he did not think that when the Chief Secretary came to speak it would be possible for him to deny that the present system had been universally condemned. As the right hon. Gentleman had properly said, the Report of Mr. Dale in itself was a condemnation, complete and overwhelming, of the Board of National Education and of the whole system at the present moment in Ireland. He therefore thought they had reason to congratulate themselves that at last they had come to what looked like the beginning of the end of a system which had to a large extent kept the Irish in ignorance and militated against progress in every department of life in that country. He had not risen to emphasise the case against the present system. If that rested solely on the speeches made in this debate it would be unanswerable. But it rested upon more than that. It was unnecessary for him at this stage to emphasise the view now practically universally entertained by every one, that the present system was rotten and must go. But he had been induced to rise now by some of the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University. If they had in Ireland a Government of their own the settlement of this question would be perfectly easy; then the settlement would be a natural and logical settlement by a Government Department responsible to the Parliament of Ireland. But that was not the position in which they stood at the
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present moment, and he desired before the Chief Secretary spoke to warn him that so far as the sentiments entertained by the Irish Members were concerned, they did not approve and would not tolerate, so far as it rested with them, the creation of a new Castle board to take the place of the present Board of National Education. They had no confidence in the Government of Ireland by Dublin Castle; they had no confidence, in the centralised nominated board of Dublin Castle; and the creation of what they called a new Government Department in Ireland to take over responsibility for primary education in that country would not receive their sanction, and most certainly would not receive the confidence of the mass of the Irish people.
He confessed it was very difficult to suggest what the remedy ought to be. Of course it would he, as he had said, easy if they had their own Government; and until they had their own Government there would be, in his opinion, no satisfactory or logical settlement. But it was not their province, sitting in opposition in that House, without responsibility for the Government in their hands, to suggest a way out of these difficulties, and therefore he did not propose to suggest a scheme for remedying the difficulties. What he did say was that the scandal and disgrace of the system was now admitted. There was no proof of the failure of English government in Ireland so overwhelming as that which was to be found in the neglect of education, and there was no argument, therefore, that was stronger in favour of Home Rule. When they came to propose a remedy for this question all he felt bound to say was this, that the National Board as at present constitute I was absurd, unrepresentative, and irresponsible, and whatever they did they must change the character of that board, but further than that he had only to say that he was not in favour of a new Department in Ireland responsible to this House. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University said that that was all very well. Would he allow him to point out the difference between the responsibility of an Irish Castle board to this House and the responsibility of the ordinary Board of

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Education in this country to this House. What was the meaning of the responsibility of the English Board of Education to this House? It meant that it was responsible to an Assembly where the public opinion of the country was paramount. That was to say it could never do anything out of sympathy with the opinion of the majority of the people of England. But the Education Board in Ireland might be responsible to this House, and yet in its every action flout and defy the unanimous public opinion of Ireland, and, therefore, to tell him that this case would be satisfactorily met by the creation of a new Government Department which was to be responsible to this House did not satisfy his mind at all, because so far as the Irish people were concerned it would be absolutely irresponsible. Therefore he was not to be taken as in favour, in any sense, of such a board. That was what he had risen to say. He had intended to wait until later in the debate and to speak after hearing what the Chief Secretary had to say, but so impressed was he by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University that he thought it well to intervene between that speech and the speech of the Chief Secretary, so that there might be no misconception upon this point, and that the Chief Secretary might know that this scheme for creating a new Department in Ireland was not one that they approved, and that they would resist that proposal. It was one that would not receive support from the great mass of Irish people.
MR T. W. RUSSELLsaid he did not think it was necessary that the House should trouble itself discussing the enormities connected with such matter; as equipment, sanitation, and school buildings. In a debate of this character, which, in his opinion, was clearly going to result in a revolution in the Irish educational system, it was not matters like these that the House ought first of all to consider. These ought to be taken as matters of course, for no system which allowed such equipment, sanitation, and school buildings as now existed deserved to be tolerated. That was clear. They were alongside of one of the biggest Irish questions the House of Commons could be called upon to
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consider. The whole matter went so deeply into the root of things in Ireland that he wished to state at once what he thought about it. There could be no defence of the National Board. He agreed with hon. Gentlemen opposite in that, but while they condemned the Board they ought to have the courage and the frankness to say that it was formed at a time when no other system was possible, and that, under the conditions which were then existent, it had done a substantial and good educational work of a kind. He admitted that the Board was utterly defective and ought not to be allowed to exist, but he did not think they should bury it without some funeral service over it of a decent character. The Board was non-representative. He had had something to do with it in past years. He was a Presbyterian. Whether a man was competent or not was never taken into account. It all depended on Parliamentary influence. He supposed the other churches were in a similar position. He was not at liberty to discuss this question from the Home Rule standpoint, but he maintained that the Board was educationally incompetent. It had done its best but it ought to be ended. But when they came to ask what should take its place they found the great difficulty. He could see nothing, if they abolished the Board, but an Education Department as it existed in England or Scotland. That would be a Department responsible to that House. He agreed that that was an imperfect responsibility, and that many things would be done which would be repugnant to the general sense of the Irish Members. Let them make no mistake. They were really treading upon very thin ice in this matter. The question of education in Ireland occupied a wholly different position from what it occupied in England and Scotland. The religious difficulty was bad enough in England, as had been shown during the past two sessions. The Scotch people, with the remarkable good sense they generally displayed, had managed to get rid of the educational difficulty altogether. He heard not long ago that when the Lord Advocate in 1872 took the Scotch Education Bill as it had been settled by a Committee of the Cabinet to Mr. Gladstone, he rather prided himself on telling Mr. Gladstone

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that religion was not mentioned in it from beginning to end. That might do for Scotland, but it would not do for Ireland.
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: It is not in the least true for Scotland.
MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that that was said at the time; but in Ireland it was different. At all events they should face the question at once, and the House might depend upon it that the religious difficulty would be a real difficulty, and that any effort to get round it or behind it would not be of the slightest, use. It would be no use setting up an Education Department unless there was a system of local management to accompany it. They had now the county councils. The county councils had done excellent work and they had not got into conflict with the people or with any class, and he confessed that, with an Education Department and the control of education given to the county councils, with perhaps boards of management for localities on which the clergy of the denominations would be represented, they might possibly get over the difficulty. It would be absolutely impossible to get education under popular control without taking into account the claims which the religious teachers of all classes urged with regard to it. It would be perfectly impossible to deal with this question as it was in Scotland by mere school boards and to shut out all clericalism from the county councils. He should rejoice if they could find a way out of the difficulty. He entered that House many years ago with very Nonconformist views on education—namely, that the State ought not to touch religion at all. But what was the use of attempting to stand on that ground now? His hon. friends from Ulster knew the strong feeling that existed about the endowment of religion by means of education. What was the good of standing there now when they knew that the Scotch Bill would enable the Scotch school boards to endow Roman Catholic schools in Scotland and when they knew that the Education Act for England last session absolutely endowed Roman Catholic education throughout England? What was the use
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of a handful of Ulster Unionists standing up for a principle that had been swept away. He stood up for it as long as he could, but he was swept away, and he was not going to stand up for it any longer. Clergymen must be taught that children did not exist for them but clergymen for the children. If they could offer popular control giving the clergy of every church fair representation on the board of management they would see daylight in this matter. He should not like to be the Chief Secretary with this duty ahead of him, and although he stood no longer by this principle of the State not interfering, he did not believe that he represented the great sentiment of the Ulster people in this matter. The Ulster Unionists represented that but all he could say was that he did not think they ought to be allowed to stand up for a principle which was stopping the real education of the people and which the people of England and Scotland, who were as Protestant as the Ulster Unionists, had swept out of their path in the true interests of the education of their children. The Chief Secretary had done some work in the past but he would find that this education question would be the biggest matter he had ever had to deal with and was likely to do more to disorganise Parties than any- thing that had gone before.
MR. SAMUEL YOUNGsaid that everyone who took an interest in his country must know that education was the greatest, factor in a nation's greatness. It was now about seventy years ago, when, for the first time, the State set up an elementary system of education for Ireland, when there were about 80 percent, illiterates of the whole population. The national system did much in its time, for illiteracy was now only about 18 per cent. This progress was to be expected in a quick-witted race omnivorous for knowledge. But during that period, science, art, and literature had passed many milestones. So that elementary education to keep pace with the age of progress must undergo many changes in subjects and methods. In his opinion the whole system should be revised and brought up to date by adding subjects to the curriculum such as lessons on hygiene, on which the

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happiness or misery of life depended; lessons on thrift, which, if acted upon, there need be, as in France, no workhouses; classes for the promotion of laundry and cookery and the industrial arts; and Irish history, which was thought at the inception of the system inadvisable to teach, because of the confiscations and cruelties that had been perpetrated in the country in early times. The Commissioners should be changed for a tribunal chosen by the franchise of the country. Here was an educational machine set up. Was it a fine machine, well equipped for its work? The United Kingdom was a great rich nation that could spend £42,000,000 yearly on her Navy. What was she doing for the intellectual health of Ireland? Had she Universities and fine elementary schools well adapted for the health, happiness, and progress of the people of Ireland? Was this machinery which was so necessary for the progress of a nation manned with a highly educated staff? Were the attractions in status and salary such as to induce men from the Universities to eater on its business? Were they in such easy circumstances as to free their minds from all corroding cares, so as to be in a position to concentrate their whole time and thoughts on educational pursuit? If these questions could not be answered in the affirmative, then there must be a total revolution in the system. The State seemed not to realise the position of 'a teacher in the creation of good citizens and the elevation of a nation. Children were handed over to his care from the age of seven to fourteen. He occupied the place of the parents. The moral and intellectual development of the child all these years was in his hands. The man of toil, and even the business man of affluence, had neither time nor inclination for this all-important work. The schoolmaster had the making of the man. If the State interfered on national grounds to educate, it appeared to him that it was the duty of the State, which had taken the work in hand, to supply well paid, highly qualified teachers in a fit frame of mind to devote their energies to the important work of training the young for the battle of life. Before, however, elementary schools could be thoroughly efficient, there must be a fully equipped college or University established, accept-
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able to the majority of the people of Ireland, from which could be drafted men qualified to raise the standard of education in the country. In the meantime he might truly say, few, if any, were satisfied with elementary education in Ireland, which had really undergone five changes in five years, whereas it was well known that continuity was best calculated to produce success—the managers were not satisfied, the teachers were not, and the parents were not. It appeared to him there was great need for reconstruction as regarded popular control, the nature, literature, and extent of the subjects to be taught in the text-books, the status and salaries of teachers, and the improvement of and mode of conducting the business of schools. He hoped soon the people of Ireland would have in elementary and higher education suitable arrangements made so as to give the inhabitants of the country a fair chance in the race of life.
MR. LONSDALEsaid no one who had really examined the subject could deny that the system of primary education in Ireland was fundamentally defective. He presumed, therefore, that there would be general assent to the terms of the Motion of the hon. Gentleman opposite. The defectiveness of Irish education had, indeed, been realised by many people in Ireland for a long time past, and the Report of Mr. Dale, which had recently been issued, would convince many more, and particularly English Members, that reform was urgently necessary. Directly they tried to give practical shape to their ideas of reform, they discovered that primary education could not stand by itself. It was, in his opinion, closely linked with secondary and technical education. They were therefore, confronted with a very large question, which could only be settled satisfactorily after a full and careful consideration of the special needs of the Irish people, and the peculiar social and other conditions which differentiated the Irish from the English and the Scotch. His study of the defects of their educational system led him to one conclusion, which ha regarded as of the first importance. It was that they needed a strong and efficient central authority, responsible to the British House of Commons for the

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organisation and effective control of Irish education generally—not only primary, but secondary and technical education. He felt that mere denunciation of the National Commissioners or the other bodies who had the supervision of different branches of education could serve no useful purpose. No doubt they had done their best within the limits of the powers and the means at their command. But still the fact could not be disguised that many of the gravest defects in their existing system of primary education were due to the want of efficient control by a competent central authority. Such an authority, with ample powers, would be able to prevent overlapping in educational work, i.e., they could attain greater efficiency without increased expenditure, simply by the better utilisation of funds already allocated for the purposes of education. A competent central authority would also check the undue multiplication of small schools, which had been one of the most glaring defects in the present system. Of course they could not ignore the fact that the religious differences which so sharply divided the Irish people were largely accountable for this sub-division in school work. But it had been carried very much further than there was any justification for on the ground of religious prejudice. Mr. Dale, in his Report, had drawn special attention to this point. He said—
"To an observer accustomed to the single village school seen in the English rural districts, nothing is more astonishing than the manner in which the children of an Irish village are often divided among small separate schools, each under its own head teacher."
Not only were hoys and girls so divided, but—he again quoted Mr. Dale—
"Older girls are separated from younger girls, the younger girls from infants, the male infanta from the female infants."
He found in Mr. Dale's Report a striking case to illustrate the extent to which this principle of partition had been carried. At the little country town of Swords, near Dublin, he stated—
"The Roman Catholic children were divided into no less than five schools—one for the boys, one for male infants, one for female infants, a preparatory school for girls and a school for older girls."
"In England," said Mr. Dale—
"The female children would certainly have been organised as a single school under one
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headmistress; as it is they form three separate schools, with an annual average attendance respectively of sixty-eight senior girls, fifty junior girls, and forty-six girl infants."
Obviously this system of sub-dividing schools was, and must be, grossly extravagant. As Mr. Dale pointed out—
"In hundreds of cases in Ireland two—and even three—head teachers were being employed and paid at ordinary rates for head teachers where in England only one teacher would have been employed and paid in that capacity."
The Commissioners of National Education had not only permitted this system but had actually encouraged it by their method of distributing grants. One manager—a parish priest and a wry worthy man, he understood; a very able manager of schools—candidly admitted that the reason he had sub-divided a small school into three departments was that he wished to get as much money as he could out of the Commissioners. He ventured to say that that had been the motive underlying very much of the sub-division which had taken place. It seemed to him that the first step towards remedying the admitted defects in Irish primary education was to organise a strong and efficient central authority. That, he suggested, could be carried out by a separate measure—as was the, case in England—and without arousing much controversy. By the establishment of such an authority the way would be prepared for a scheme of local management and control, which everyone would admit must be undertaken in the near future. He did not think it would be denied that many of the most obvious defects of The existing system arose from the absence of popular interest in educational matters. Education in Ireland had been almost entirely separated from popular responsibility and control, and it would be necessary to devise some means—suited, of course, to the very peculiar conditions of Ireland by which the Irish people might be interested in the education of their children. The problem would be one of some difficulty and would need very careful consideration. In the meantime there was no reason why they should not make some advance towards entire reorganisation by constituting an Irish Board of Education responsible to Parliament. Even before that was done he thought the Government should supply the means for more

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adequately staffing the primary schools, by reducing the average necessary to qualify a school for the services of an assistant teacher. It must be obvious to anyone that a school of fifty-nine children of all ages could not be efficiently taught by a single teacher. There were many such schools in Ireland and there was no doubt that the younger children especially were neglected just at the time they most needed attention. He trusted the Government meant to remedy this detect immediately, and that they would have from his right hon. friend the Chief Secretary a statement of the intentions of the Government in regard to the general question of educational reform.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,)said he felt it would be imprudent to rise until every hon. Member who might be said to represent a definite shade of opinion entertained on the subject had had an opportunity of addressing the House. The prudence of his course had been justified by the trend of the debate because, had he risen an hour before, he would have addressed an audience—speaking for the English Members—who might have received the impression that all was plain sailing and that reform in Irish education could be carried out on lines which had come to be regarded as normal in respect of the English Education Act and the Scotch Education Bill. But a; he listened to the hon. Member for West Kerry, whose courageous and eloquent speech made him feel that all the difficulties were beginning to vanish, and when he heard the hon. Member for Cambridge University not only ignore the difficulties but sketch a solution, he began to fear that his announcement that he was not prepared to produce a complete reform of Irish education would be received with a good deal of reprobation by the House. The Leader of the Irish National Party, however, had warned him that under no circumstances need he entertain the idea that the creation of a central Educational Department would be accepted by him, and that revived his old view that this was a most thorny and intricate subject. The hon. and learned Member frequently criticised the National Board of Education, and com-
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plained that it was not directly held responsible to the House. He (Mr. Wyndham), however, did not believe there was any alternative between a board which was not responsible to the House and a board which was a Government Department. If that fundamental part of the scheme, as put forward by all those who had spoken with any confidence in that debate, was to be abandoned, it was clear they could only discuss this matter in a tentative spirit that afternoon. No complaint had been made against the Government for not having come forward with a policy of educational reform this session. It would be admitted on all hands that it was the turn of Scotland this session. Last year was Ireland's turn on a subject of deep interest, and one that had priority even over education. But no one who had listened to that debate—no one who had read Mr. Dale's Report—would deny that there was room for reform in Irish education, but everybody who ha I listened to that debate ought to admit that it was extremely hard to find a scheme of reform which would be generally acceptable in Ireland. The criticisms to which they had listened that afternoon were not directed against the gentlemen who had served on the National Board, and he felt it his duty explicitly to say that those gentlemen had done a great deal of good work, especially during the last three or four years, in Ireland. They had done away with the paralysing and pernicious system of payment by results; they had enlarged and diversified the curriculum they had advanced elementary training, and had made equivalent grants to 5,000 schools. Under their auspices elementary evening schools, which four years ago numbered twenty-one now, numbered 1.329.
MR. CHARLES DEVLIN: It is three or four years since the Archbishop of Dublin loft the board.
MR. WYNDHAMretorted that those gentlemen gave their services for nothing and laboured hard, and not in vain, for many years. That had nothing to do with the retirement of the Archbishop of Dublin, which they all regretted. The average attendance at Irish schools which had been going down, and had fallen from

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511,000 in 1896 to 459,000 in 1900, rose to 465,000 in the next year, and last year it was 475,000. Criticisms should be directed mainly, if not wholly, against the system in which the National Board had been so conspicuous a feature. They had nothing to do with what took place at the beginning of the last century or with the proselytising efforts of Archbishop Whately. The creation of the National Board by Lord Stanley marked the abandonment of the policy of Archbishop Whately. Lord Stanley instituted a board, consisting of a certain number of Roman Catholics and a certain number of Protestants, and for some years past the board had been composed on the principle of half and half. Some such board was the only alternative to a Government Department. The features of denominational representation must remain until, or unless, they introduced a central Department responsible to that House, and until that was acceptable no one would rashly undertake to carry through a fundamental reform of primary education in Ireland. The features of the board were dictated by the peculiar difficulties which the problem of primary education presented in Ireland. To-day Ireland was said to be so poor a country as not to be expected to contribute so much as was the ease in England. The difficulties which were peculiar to Ireland made the National Board what it had been, and that board remained in the same condition because those difficulties still existed.
He would ask hon. Members to consider how difficult the problem Was in Ireland—how much more difficult that in England. They had these profound religious divisions. They were dealing with a country which, unlike England or Scotland, had very few large towns in which local effort could be obtained. There were some large towns, like Dublin and Bellast, but the condition of house property was not the same as in great populous centres in England, so that they did not get the natural pontaneous standard set by local opinion in England and Scotland in favour of educational advance. There were in Ireland large tracts of moor and mountain land sparsely inhabited, where the children had to go eight miles to
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school, and the problem there presented difficulties unknown in this country. In consequence of that difficulty they had not compulsory education in Ireland, and it was doubtful whether they could get it in the immediate future. And then, again, in Ireland there was no aid from the rates at all at present. The whole charge was borne by public money. What a change must be introduced if they were to have popular control! He did not believe that they could have popular control. He was sure that they would not have popular interest if it were financially possible to defray all the cost out of the pocket of the taxpayer. Then they had no co-ordination between primary and secondary education. There was a certain amount of co-ordination effected by giving prizes and scholarships, but in the true sense of the word there was no co-ordination at all; and when they came to intermediate education it was wholly a system of examinations based entirely on payment by results. Technical instruction had advanced rapidly, but it only became possible five years ago; it was still in an embryonic stage of development, and it could not be said to be coordinated with intermediate education. At the end—last but not least—there was in Ireland no Universities of the type familiar to Scotland and Germany, and which was growing up in England—of the type which inspired the ambition of the people and set another standard of academic enthusiasm which ran through, and was worked up to by all those who were charged with tuition. One might say. Could those dry bones live? With some hesitation he said, Yes. Ireland had one asset. In Irish children—in the young manhood of Ireland—there was a sincere desire for knowledge and education, and there was a remarkable aptitude for using adroitly any information which had been acquired. They wanted larger opportunities of education. They had many examples of that. They knew that the Civil Service was full of Irish servants who did a great work for the Empire, and he would mention Mr. Coyne, whose name all who cared for Ireland would remember. He was a man who with very slight opportunities performed a life-work of the greatest interest and use to his country.

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There was another paint: although the religious divisions were deep and wide, there was not over by far the greater part of Ireland any denominational difficulty at the present moment. That brought them to the question—could they risk, or give people the occasion of saying that they were risking, the denominational equilibrium in order to secure larger opportunities for the development of the indisputable aptitude for education in Ireland? That was putting as shortly as he could the question they were discussing that afternoon in a preliminary debate. They could, and up to a certain point he thought they ought to, spend more money—even if it were found impossible to introduce any drastic reforms. That could be done, thanks to the Development Grant, without placing further burdens on the general taxpayer. He mentioned that in order that hon. Members should not suppose that he was playing the usual role of an Irish Chief Secretary, and asking for more money. But look at the demands which had been made? If they gave as he had said that they intended to give, two teachers to schools with an average attendance of fifty instead of sixty, that would cost £24,000 a year. If they came next to the remedying of a great material defect, that was, if they put the school-houses of Ireland into a sanitary condition it would cost £40,000 a year to bring them up to anything like the standard which prevailed in England. If they gave proper heating appliances throughout Ireland that would cost another £24,000 a year, so that they got £90,000 a year before they began to talk of what might be called reform. Then it was essential to take into account the necessity there would be of developing technical instruction, which seemed to hold out more promise that any other branch of education at the present moment; £25,000 a year was asked for and needed for that, bringing it up to £80,000 a year. Thus they came to a considerable sum without having cone to the question of co-ordination. That they could do only by giving more prizes and scholarships. To do that on such a scale as to give hope of any palpable result would cost another £50,000 a year; and he had not touched on other suggestions which had been made; such, for
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example, as the setting up of higher grade schools of a primary character, which he had no doubt was most desirable. If they left the system as it was that must be all that could be done, otherwise they got into such sums as would not be sanctioned for the mere purpose of pouring money into the existing watertight compartments of Irish education. If they could get some organic reform the case for expenditure would be mush stronger, but where there was no rate-aid the case for expenditure would not carry them beyond the point of remedying obvious material defects, effecting a certain amount of co-ordination in the way of giving prizes and scholarships, and doing something more for technical instruction.
It was important to keep in view the financial aspect of the matter, and for that purpose he would compare the position in Ireland with that in England and Wales. Taking primary and secondary (or intermediate) education and technical instruction, in England rate-aid was given to all three branches, but in Ireland to technical instruction only, and then to an infinitesimal amount. In 1902–3 the amount of public funds devoted to education in England was £9,753,000 in round figures, rates provided £6,830,000, and if local loans—which were really financed by the locality—were to be included, another £2, 750,000 must be added. Therefore, in England, while £9,750,000 came from public money, more than £9,500,000 came from local money, or nearly £1 for £1, and if local loans were excluded two-thirds of the money came from public funds. With that he would contrast the financial picture in Ireland. Public funds provided £1,305,000; and building grants amounted to £27,000. The amount of building grants for 1902–3 was very low; they sometimes ran as high as £36,000 or £40,000. Two-thirds, and in some cases the whole, of the prime cost of building Irish schools fell on the public exchequer. For intermediate education £78,000 was voted, and there was no local aid; and for technical instruction the amount voted was £88,000. The total amount for public money was therefore £1,498,000, while the amount from local funds was only £72,900. Instead of being £1 for

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£1, as in England, the amount was nearer 1s. to £1. He fully admitted that Ireland was a very poor country; he agreed that her poverty in addition to her religious difficulties had made the system of education in Ireland what it was; but could any large and drastic reform be hoped for if it only meant pouring more public money into these water-tight compartments? Without requiring any local assistance, without admitting any local influence, without effecting any co-ordination between the different branches of education, they would not be able to proceed very far along that path. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had expressed the hope that he would see the day when the general taxpayer would defray all the cost of education, and the opinion that if the Government began in Ireland they would be setting a very good precedent. What would the Chancellor of the Exchequer have said to such a proposition? He hoped to we a great deal more money expended on education in Ireland, but it was idle to suppose that an experiment of the character suggested by the right hon. Gentleman was going to be initiated at present in any part of the United Kingdom, and he would be deceiving the House if he held out any hope of its being done in Ireland.
But the financial comparison was not the most important that could be made. In England and Wales the three branches of education were coordinated; all were assisted out of the rates, and all were under popular control. In Ireland each was distinct from the other. Primary education, under the National Board, received a large amount of public money but no local assistance; schools were multiplied according to denomination, sex, and age, to such an extent that there were perhaps six or seven tiny schools scattered about a village or a collection of villages. This system made the schools not only expensive but inefficient, and it weighed most hardly upon all those who were engaged in the supervision of education. How could they expect any improvement when there was no hope of advancing by any efforts they might make.
Then the teacher was in a somewhat anomalous position; although as far as
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his prospects in the profession were concerned he was practically under the Board, his appointment and dismissal were exclusively in the hands of the managers. Under those conditions what general development of education could they expect when they were absolutely at the mercy of the managers of some little twopenny-halfpenny school.
MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: At the mercy of one manager.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid the teacher could only be appointed by one men and he could be dismissed by one man, and then he had to look to a board which was not responsible to this House for the development of his career.
He would now pass on to the question of intermediate education which had been called secondary education. Intermediate education was under a totally distinct board. It dispensed some £110,000 a year of public money and had done excellent work. The income from all sources was £111,000, the expenditure £93,000, and the number of children examined 8,379. But it could not be said that a system of secondary education existed; there was a great deal of examination pure and simple, but no counterpart to the real secondary schools, under the control of a Department, as in England and Scotland. Before he passed to technical instruction perhaps he ought to answer the question—How does it work? The system worked in this way: The clever boy in the primary school with plenty of initiative and determination might get one of those exhibitions from the Intermediate Board. Having got that he would go to a secondary school, and there work very largely by himself, and then he might present himself for a degree in the Royal University. That was not education at all in the sense in which it was given in this country, and it was a wonder to him that Irish boys ever succeeded at all under such circumstances. He had one particular instance in mind of a gentleman who belonged to the political views of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who was one of a large Irish family who lived on a very small farm, and who was now a cultured man and would be an ornament to any society. That system

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might work pretty well for the clever boys, but for the stupid or the average boy very little could be done at all.
On technical instruction £25,000 a year had been spent, and he thought that £25,000 ought to be added to that sum. Some attempt had been made to avoid overlapping with the Intermediate Board, but the success was partial. It was bewildering to contemplate the different sources from which money and advice were given to the people who were trying to give or receive education. Technical instruction ought to be more intimately bound up with primary education. As at present administered there were in the technical instruction the rudiments of rate-aid and of popular control, and they found, he believed in consequence of this, that it had vitality and was successful.
After this brief survey of the three branches of education which were so intimately bound up one with the other, and which ought not to be dissevered, he came back to the question which he first proposed, namely, the question of reform. He thought they ought to take the easiest path and follow the line of least resistance and endeavour to avoid all risks of disturbing denominational equilibrium. They should avoid all risk of touching the susceptibilities of existing managers. They could avoid all these risks but only at a cost of a good deal of money. They could devote another £100,000 to primary education and they could spend another £50,000 on co-ordination of primary and secondary education, and another £25,000 for technical instruction. Even these modest measures would cost £175,000—nay, more, by their expenditure they would confirm the divisions existing between primary, secondary, and technical education, and the overlapping between the Board of Agriculture and the Intermediate Board. It was quite clear they could not legislate this session. If they were to legislate next session, upon what scale should they legislate? He ventured to throw out a suggestion of a very tentative character. Since in technical instruction they required popular control and rate-aid, and as the arrangement against overlapping between the Board of Agriculture and the Inter-
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mediate Board were unsatisfactory, it seemed to him reasonable to say that they could not exclude the consideration of technical instruction and intermediate education from any attempt at educational reform. This, at any rare, should acccompany any such attempt at reform, indeed it might prove necessary that it should precede any such attempt. Of the three courses that were open, the easiest was to pour Irish money into the three separate and uncoordinated receptacles afforded by the systems of primary, secondary, and technical education. This course, however, would not enlist local aid or interest, and he hoped it would not be adopted. Then a very ambitious and comprehensive attempt might be made to organise education in Ireland on sounder lines, but, if such an attempt were not fully successful, to have made it would delay the cause of educational reform for years. The third course, a less ambitious one, was to seek to co-ordinate technical instruction and intermediate education, to develop local control and rate-aid, though not on a great scale, and to accompany this first attempt at organic reform with the remedying of material defects in primary education, such as the provision of proper sanitary arrangements and fires in the schools. Personally he should prefer the more ambitious scheme. He did not know whether it would prove possible at the present time, and that being so the question arose whether it would be wise to proceed against the danger signal, and arouse opposition which must delay educational reform in Ireland. But in view of the Scottish Education Bill of this year and the English Act of 1902; in view of the educational progress of other countries; in view of the excellent material that existed in the ready hands and quick wits of the children of Ireland, the attempt must be made. The Government could not allow—and he said this with emphasis—a new disparity to grow up between Ireland and England in respect to opportunities for education, which were no less important in the twentieth century than were opportunities for commerce 200 years ago. The difficulties were great; but it was the duty of Parliament to get over them, through them, or round them, and in any

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case to get beyond them, so as to prevent a new disability on the rising generation of a country for whose welfare they held themselves constitutionally responible.
MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid the right hon. Gentleman had made a comparison between the amount of money given by the State and the amount given by the locality in England and Ireland for education. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that in England the proportion was pound for pound while in Ireland it was a shilling to the pound. The comparison was not altogether fair for this reason. The best educationists in Ireland were the Christian Brothers. He understood that they had about 30,000 pupils in their schools, and they did an important educational work for Ireland without a penny of assistance from the State. There had also been strong testimony given to the efficiency of the convent schools in Ireland, and these also were carried on without the assistance of the State, so far as buildings were concerned. He thought any comparison made as to the amounts contributed for education ought not to exclude the very large contributions made by the people of Ireland for these schools. So far as the general principle was concerned his position was this. The financial relations between this country and Ireland required readjustment, and the Irish Members did not think it was right that a small and impoverished country should be treated on the same scale as a great Imperial and rapidly increasing country like this. The, contribution given by the Imperial Exchequer was but a small part of the amount due to Ireland under the fiscal relations between Great Britain and Ireland. The sum given altogether was £1,500,000, and it was a strange and sinister coincidence that this was the exact amount paid for policemen. He thought that certain changes, to which he would presently allude, would enable the Government to reduce to a quarter the payment for police, and to correspondingly increase the amount devoted to the purposes of education. There might be Gentlemen in this House and elsewhere who regarded the policeman as a wiser and more useful instructor of
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youth than the teacher. He gathered as much from the observations he had occasionally heard from the Benches opposite, but he thought the right hon. Gentleman might well consider in his general survey of Irish education whether it would not be better to give more to education and less to the police. His own opinion was that all money given to Ireland which was divorced from responsible popular control was money which could not be expended to the best advantage. All over Ireland there were examples of this. The root evil was the want of local interest which was the child of local control. The House would perceive that it was impossible to have a good system of national education in any country where there was not popular control.
In regard to the national schools, education was paralysed to a large extent by some of the difficulties of the Irish situation. He would make this concession, that any English Minister responsible for the government of Ireland had a great many difficulties to contend with. His good intentions were sometimes frustrated, and even his best work sometimes proved futile because he had suspicion in front and no proper support behind him. Any proposal brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman which was in consonance with popular sentiment would receive the favourable consideration of the Irish Members. After all, was it not pitiable that the Minister responsible for the government of Ireland should get up seventy years after the so-called system of national education was established and begin his speech by acknowledging the breakdown of that system, and then go on to say that all his position allowed him to do was to propose, in the problematical event of his being in office next year, some peddling measure of reform? The school buildings in Ireland were insanitary, the equipment was bad, and, such as it was, it had to be paid out of the stipends of the teachers. The children had to carry their own fuel for the school fires. Reference had been made to the disparity between the condition of teachers in England and Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman would not bring in a Bill dealing with Irish education this year because Scotch education was

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receiving the attention of Parliament. Scotland could demand that education should be dealt with this year, and Ireland had to wait. In Scotland a large number of the teachers were graduates. Only a few were graduates in Ireland because of the lack of opportunities for University education.
How was the problem to be met? Education was bad largely because of the suspicion with which English Governments were regarded in Ireland. How had they faced the religious difficulty? By the clumsiest of all methods of having a ridiculous board, half Catholic, half Protestant. In spite of all the praises of the right hon. Gentleman that Board had not a single man on it who had any claim to be regarded as an educationalist. If they were going to meet the religious difficulty by having men of different religious denominations on the controlling body, let them get there by popular election. There would be plenty of Protestants on any board elected in Ireland, and Catholics did not object to Protestants of the proper sort. The second course was to form a new Department responsible to this House. That was the worst proposal that could be made, because after a debate, if there should be a division, the Government majority would consist to the extent of four-fifths of English and Scotch Members who had not heard a single word of the debate. That was what responsibility to this House meant. That was an impossible situation. He really sometimes had a vague suspicion of the right hon. Gentleman. He openly-confessed that, like Louis XV.—he suggested no comparison—the right hon. Gentleman had come to the conclusion that he was the last monarch of a departing line. "After me the deluge" was the undertone that he heard in all the right hon. Gentleman's speeches. He hoped the House had noticed the very striking picture which the right hon. Gentleman gave of intermediate education in Ireland, and of the examinations connected therewith. He remembered a friend of his, now a member of the English Bar, when he went up for his "little go" examination, wondering whether he should take up a Greek tragedy or political economy, between which subjects he had his choice. His
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friend thought it was better to take up the Greek tragedy, because he could get that up in a fortnight, and receive five marks for it; whereas if he took political economy it would take him six months to work up, and he would only get five marks for it also. That was the principle of Irish intermediate education ! It was all false, and failed to train the intellectual faculties, which was the true object of education.
How were they going to get popular control in Ireland? If that were granted he was sure a tempest would arise in that country which the right hon. Gentleman, with all his sweetness of temper, would not be able to withstand. These were questions which the Irish people alone were able to settle. He had been delighted to hear the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that night. It was one of a remarkable series of speeches recently delivered in which could be detected the gentle and mournful cadence of the "swan song." If he thought the right hon. Gentleman was a Machiavellian statesman—which he did not think he was—he was much too candid and astute for that—he would be under the impression that the right hon. Gentleman was laboriously and deliberately breaking down the rotten fabric of English Government in Ireland in order to make it possible for some successor to level it off.
MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: said that the right hon. Gentleman had declared that next session, if he occupied his present position, he was pledged to deal with the Irish education problem. That was the best consolation they could get; and he supposed they must rest satisfied in the meantime. However, he had risen for the purpose of expressing regret that the right hon. Gentleman who was responsible for Irish educational affairs had not paid a tribute to the splendid work done in Ireland by the Christian Brothers, who were not under the National Board, and who turned out some of the best educated men in the country. He begged the Chief Secretary, in considering the measure for next year, not to exclude the Christian Brothers from any settlement he might consider desirable. It was true that there were considerable difficulties in the way; but

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they were worth meeting. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had paid a high tribute, from his own observation, to the splendid work which the Christian Brothers were doing, and had done in the past. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman for that tribute, because in his own constituency there was one of the largest schools of the Order in the country, and he was certain that all those who inquired as closely as the right hon. Gentleman had done into the matter would share his view, that the Christian Brothers deserved all the support that could be given to them. The schools of the Order were splendidly equipped and provided an education of a first-class character, equal to anything in this or any other country in the world, to many thousands of children; and yet they received no support from public funds. He knew that the difficulty was that the Christian Brothers taught religion in their schools according to their conscientious ideas; but that was no reason why they should be shut out from a participation in public money, which other public schools in the country received. So free were the Christian Brothers from anything in the shape of intolerance and bigotry, that many Protestant parents actually sent their boys to their schools, it was a monstrous thing, in the interests of the general education and well-being of (he country, they should be excluded from some share of the public funds because they taught religion as well as matters of general education.
SIR. JAMES HASLETTsaid he had no doubt that the Christian Brothers' schools were excellently conducted and that their education was sound on their own principles; but it was scarcely the question before the House. He would remind hon. Members that the Motion was—
"That, in the opinion of this House, the system of primary education in Ireland is fundamentally defective and has proved injurious in its operations."
He was not sure that any Irish Member would venture to say it had been injurious. It might not have been equal to everything they hoped for, but to say it was producing injury in the general education of the country seemed scarcely to admit
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of proof. He himself had been honourably educated in a national school, and he could truly say it had not failed in doing a great work for the country. When they remembered the position of the education question seventy years ago, it was only fair to say that the National Board had done good educational work. It might not have given everything they wanted in respect of denominational instruction, but take it all in all—whether they referred to the teacher or the scholar, it had done good work for Ireland. The fact that they had reversed the position during seventy years and that at the present day not 20 per cent, of the people were illiterate showed that good work had been done, though not so good as was desired. He cordially agreed that there was a want of coordination in the ganeral principles of education. They spoke of primary education and gave it, by general consent, a lower position than secondary, technical, or University. In his opinion the most difficult school for any person to teach was the infant school. They had to dilute their instruction; they had to bring it down to the mind that was only budding out; and the country should be alive to the question that the highest position they could give to anyone in connection with the education of the country should be to the successful trainer of youth in what they called the elementary parts of their education. He spoke from experience. Take the case of the Sabbath school. It was generally considered that any adult could take charge of an infant. It required the highest intelligence and special adaptability to successfully conduct an infant class in religious questions.
What had been the improvements in the position of the teachers during the last seventy or eighty years? The old teacher who had the arduous duty of trying to thump into his own mind as much as he could from the A, B, C upwards enjoyed the splendid income of £18 a year. Similar teachers in a modern school would enjoy three or four times that income. He wished them all prosperity in the enjoyment of that salary. But even yet every

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man had not risen to what might be called a good position. With regard to the schools themselves they must remember that they had been erected in Ireland almost entirely by private subscriptions. He honoured the people who wont through the country and desired to make improvements and give reports, but in some respects they reminded him of the man who went to New York, looked at the dock, and then came back. The idea of a man saying he could walk through a city of, say, 300,000 inhabitants, and in the course of two or three days form a correct estimate either of the buildings or the scholastic system seemed to be trespassing very largely on the credulity of the public. Speaking for his own town he did not doubt that there were some very poor schools. At the same time they were good schools fifty years ago. They had served their day, and in the natural course of events must all pass away. They had heard also that through the philanthropy and large mindedness of those who possessed money they had some of the finest schools in the State, schools which would compare favourably with any of the Board schools in England so far as the buildings were concerned. But what did they find inside those schools? The complaint he had to make about the Education Department was that they were not sufficiently equipped for higher education; that they were not sufficiently supplied in maps, plans, and things of that sort for educational work, unless the teacher or some generous person in the neighbourhood was prepared to pay for them. Surely if individuals had provided the buildings in which to carry on the school the State might in all con science supply the means for the education.
There was another class of schools put up by the State called the model schools. He was not prepared to say that he had changed his view with regard to them. He had never changed his view that that was the system of education that should prevail. Each church had placed a school at the end of its buildings—he did not say for what reason, possibly for the patronage it brought; possibly because the ministers of the particular denominations were the people who in former days were the educated people of the country. But
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that day had passed, and they had fairly arrived at a time when they could have their educational work largely undertaken not by a single patron but by a mixed committee. With regard to secondary education in Ireland, they were told that the same sordid idea prevailed. That might be so, but the same sordid opinion and the same sordid objection prevailed in primary education up to last year. He as much as any one deprecated the system of cramming—payment by results in what may be a parrot repetition—which represented nopreparation of the mind for further education. The teacher received result fees for a considerable time, and a year or two ago the Board of Education said they would a bolish the result system altogether, and plane, the teachers in the position of getting a salary equal to the average of their yearly earning during the three years previous to the abolition order. And taking the case of a teacher who got £60, £70. £80, or £90 as an average, with the management of a school of fifty or sixty pupils, that teacher had been removed to a school of 150 pupils at the same salary. Their duties and responsibilities were tripled without any equivalent addition to their salary. This was looked upon as a very serious difficulty and a great injustice to the teachers.
With regard to the technology of the schools, this was the first time in the coarse, of education in Ireland that the general interest of the community in the form of mixed committees had been established. In Belfast they were: so dreadful that it was said they scarcely recognised more than one colour and that they were almost blind to all others, yet singularly enough men of different views on the religious question worked most harmoniously together and lent most valuable assistance in connection with the technology of the schools. Although the mixed committee in its general working did well in higher education, it was very difficult, where the committee was composed of business men, to get them to give the time fairly necessary for the general inspection and welfare of the schools which they had practically under their control. The minister who was constantly going in and out among the people was always available, but business men were so busy that they

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could not devote their attention, to the general working of the schools. It came back to this. What wore they going to do? He quite agreed that a change must be made in the general control of primary education in Ireland, but he did not agree that the Board of Education had not done any good. Its day had gone by, but the men who comprised it had, without fee or reward, honestly, in his opinion, tried to discharge their duty on it. It had lived its day; education had become general and the desire for higher education more general still, and they must face the necessity for a change. He supposed the Board would be abolished, but what were they going to put in its place? The Chief Secretary mentioned an Education Board, but would that Board be chosen for its educational powers or because it represented various shades of religious opinion? Religious opinion was so strongly and so keenly held in Ireland that it could not be done away with except by common consent. Would they get that? He believed they were travelling towards it. By common consent the best school in Ireland was known as the "Christian Brothers" school. But that was not recognised as a Catholic school. The Catholics had other schools and looked upon this rather as a free lance. In fact, it was almost boycotted, and at: 11 events was not regarded as anything more than a stepchild.
Two or three difficulties had to be settled in Ireland. The religious element was strong and the educational element was relatively weak. They spent £20,000 on a church and £1,000 on the school at its side; £50,000 or £100,000 on a cathedral and £1,000 or at most £2,000 on the best school they desired to build. That must be reversed. His own strong conviction was that they must have a central Education Board composed, if possible, exclusively of educationists. I hey should take the men of the highest qualification for education, but that was what they were all afraid of in Ireland. They thought the more clever a man was the more likely was he to carry his point in religious as well as other education. He did not know that in the primary schools of Ireland it had ever
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been sought to make a test of religion, so far as the teacher was concerned, a severe test in his appointment. If they had an Education Board then they ought also to have divisional boards. He would have a Council of Education for the four provinces of Ireland, and he would have on that board county representation through their county councils or their county borough councils, and he would have visiting committees in connection with each minor division, such as the district county council, and they would have some regard for the general education of the district and for the equipment of the schools in that district. One great detriment to education in Ireland was officialism. The inspector went to inspect a school and he was considered a dreadful piece of humanity in his (Sir James's) day. They had to get specially washed, their hair done, and be dressed in their best clothes, and he was not very clear, when he heard that the inspector was coming, what his height was or what particular kind of animal he was. But as they grew older they knew the inspector. He went to the school and he examined a class or two. He found the order of the school deficient and he wrote out a report. The unfortunate teacher did not see that report. It went to Dublin and all that he knew was that he got a rap across the knuckles for a particular deficiency in connection with education. It never dawned upon the inspector that in examining ten or more boys he should look up their history on entering the school and then estimate how much the teacher was trying to advance them. He had occasion to come across a case when he delivered himself of this idea—
"You, as inspector, are here to draw out the best that is in the teacher, to estimate how far he has been discharging his duty and brought out the latent talent of these boys, and when you have estimated thus to tell him of his defects and to come back again and see if he has clone what you have suggested to him. Then you have answered the great function of the inspector, which is not merely writing a report of the defects of the school."
Well, what he wanted next was that the Dublin Board should be more in touch with every individual school in the country, with the four provincial councils which would be working for the welfare of education, and that the Board should

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consider itself not the master but the servant of education. They should try to restore everything that would make for the general uplifting of the growth of their country. He trusted that in whatever form the Chief Secretary would give effect to his views he would not consider the pulling down as sufficient, but that he would show c instructive power which he very earnestly hoped would be for the welfare of Ireland.
MR. CLANCYsaid the speech of the Chief Secretary was a most despairing one from an Irish point of view. The existing system of education in Ireland was gravely and fundamentally defective, and the right hon. Gentleman showed in his speech that it was so, and then he proceeded to show that it was almost impossible to reform it. That was a pretty condition for Parliament to reduce Ireland to in the twentieth century. This country had had the education of Ireland in its hands for 300 years, and now the House was told that no practical suggestion could be made for any amendment in the immediate future. If they could not reform Irish education, the Government ought to give the control of it to the people themselves. It was not for the Irish representatives to make suggestions to the Government because, in the words of Mr. Gladstone, where the power lies there also lies the responsibility. He protested against the financial references of the Chief Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the efforts made by the Government in support of primary education in Ireland, but he had omitted to mention that the greater part of the money granted was Irish money which came out of the Church supplies, and that every single penny granted for the pensions of the teachers came out of the same fund. It was a great grievance that the right hon. Gentleman should have used language which led British Members to think that the money voted out of public funds was Imperial money, whereas as a matter of fact a large portion of it was purely Irish money. The hon. Baronet disagreed with the statement in the Resolution that the national system in its operation had been injurious. But how could it be denied?
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If the national system had not equipped the people of Ireland with the knowledge necessary to enable them to compete with the people of other countries, that in itself was an injury. In America, France, and Germany, the school-going populations were taught the arts and industries by which they would earn their bread and endeavour to maintain the commercial and industrial supremacy of their respective nations; but that was not done in Ireland. Was not that a distinct injury to the country? So far from exciting the opposition of the Member for such a constituency as Belfast, the proposition ought to have secured his most cordial support.
A further point had reference to the education of deaf and dumb, defective, and epileptic children. For ten or twelve years the sum of £40,000 had been voted for that purpose in England, and in Scotland the amount was proportionately even greater, but in response to the demand for similar treatment for Ireland the answer of the right hon. Gentleman was unsatisfactory and evasive. If legislation was necessary to enable such a grant to be made, a one-clause Bill would be sufficient, and not a single Member of the House would raise any opposition to it. The impression left upon his mind by the debate was one of despair. He was entirely at a loss as to the right hon. Gentleman's intentions. What a state of affairs ! The education of a whole nation was in an utterly indefensible condition, and the Minister of a powerful Government was unable to devise a remedy Ireland was already far behind the rest of the civilised world; her industries had been crushed out by English legislation and competition; and yet when she asked for a remedy for this shocking condition of affairs, she was met by an abject confession of incapacity on the part of the Minister in charge. If that was not a strong argument in favour of Home Rule he did not know what was, but he would rather see something done than hear such an argument every session. If the Irish people had the means they would be justified, after the speech of the Chief Secretary, in ridding themselves by force of the Government which attempted to govern them.
MR. CHARLES DEVLIN,in supporting the Amendment, urged that some assistance should be given to the institutions charged with the education of the blind. He thought Irishmen had reason to complain of the speech of the Chief Secretary. If the right hon. Gentleman were a Minister in any other country, his first duty after such a speech would be to resign his office, for he claimed to have a policy but was afraid to carry it into effect. The hon. Member for North Belfast had put forward a curious reason for disagreeing with the Motion. The hon. Baronet had said that while it was possible that fifty years ago the school buildings, even in Belfast, were in a dilapidated condition, a vast improvement had taken place, and the buildings were now up-to-date. The recent Report of Mr. Dale, who was sent over specially to inquire into this matter, entirely disproved that contention, showing as it did that the buildings in Belfast and Dublin were vastly inferior from the point of view of convenience for teachers, and of the arrangements necessary for the health of teachers and scholars, to the average school buildings in towns of a corresponding size in England.
And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

EVENING SITTING.

  SUPPLY (CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES)
  Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment to Question [18th April], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  Which Amendment was—
  "To leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, 'in the opinion of this House, the system of Primary Education in Ireland is fundamentally defective, and has proved injurious in it's operation.'"—(Mr. Nannetti.)
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. CHARLES DEVLIN,continuing, said on reading Mr. Dale's Report he
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  found on page 44 several footnotes composed of extracts taken from letterssent to Mr. Dale by various inspectors of schools in Ireland, and Mr. Dale dwelt on and seemed to agree with the opinion those letters expressed. For instance, Mr. Lebane, of the Galway circuit, wrote—
  "There is, I regret to state, little local interest taken by the general public in the state and efficiency of the schools. Except in rare cases, when some real or imaginary grievance needs inquiry, no member of the general body of the people seems to think that the condition or state of efficiency of the school is a matter that concerns him. He leaves the school, with all that pertains to it, to be dealt with by teacher, manager, and inspector."
  One inference only could be drawn from such statements, namely that the Irish parent took absolutely no interest in educational matters, did nothing to promote the best interests of his child, and that Ireland had lest all love for learning. It was unnecessary to delve into ancient history to disprove and remove so unfair and so unjust an accusation for the whole history of Ireland was bound up with the love of the people for the best and highest education possible; and just as in the olden days eminent scholars went from the shores of Erin to carry light and learning into distant lands, so to-day the Irish race had an inextinguishable love of knowledge and science—so much so that the Irish parent never counted the cost or the sacrifice where the interest of education was concerned. It must not be forgotten that Ireland had not had the free exercise of her will in these any more than in other matters, that her every impulse had been thwarted by England, and that she had been fettered and hampered as no other race had ever been. In the last fifty years, during periods of distress, famine, persecution and coercion, the Irish nation had had to make a supreme struggle, with the life-blood drawn from her by a cruel and arrogant aristocracy who took everything and gave nothing, to keep alive the spark of national life. Ireland had to provide herself with churches, schools, hospitals, and all the requirements of a Christian people and of modern civilisation. Let the fair student of facts look Ireland in the face and he would have to admit that never was a

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  more heroic struggle for existence undertaken, or a more signal victory won over an unreasonable and unreasoning oppressor. There was one eminently satisfactory note running through Mr. Dale's Report, and it was this, that he could not find language sufficiently enthusiastic to speak of the convent schools of Ireland. He proclaimed their efficiency in spite of the little help they received from the State. The convent schools were the work of the people; they were built with the money provided by the people—and still they were told that the Irish people took no interest in educational matters. He knew the Irishman, and he made bold to say that whether at home or abroad in those distant lands to which he had been driven by the tyrannical laws imposed by England, no man surpassed him in his efforts to promote education, or in the sacrifices he bore for so sacred a cause, or in his desire to see his children—in the matter of intellectual equipment—equal to the best. It he did not succeed, it was because the State stood in the way and hindered rather than helped in the necessary work.
  Let them take the case of Galway. With sorrow he was forced to admit that the district in which his constituency lay was one of the poorest in Ireland, much, alas, of its ancient prosperity and splendour having disappeared. Despite this, what did they find? Thanks TO the zeal of the venerable prelate at the head of the diocese, to the priests and people as well as to the religions conducting the institutions, they found Brothers' schools and convent schools full of life, while State schools close by were dying and decaying. Owing its origin to the generosity of the people, and the energy of the Jesuit fathers, they would find a college for the young, surpassed by few, imparting the best possible education to hundreds of the Galway youths. What help had the State ever given to this institution or did it give now? Not one penny; while only a few yards away from this bright lively institution were the model school and Queen's College—deathlike in the atmosphere around them, the flickering spark of life kept burning by the thousands of pounds slobbered on them annually by the State.
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  This was a most important matter. They were told nothing more could be done for those schools, and no improvement could be made; they already cost too much. As to this Mr. Dale's Report said—
  "23. The net expenditure incurred in maintaining the model schools out of the National Education Vote (excluding the expenditure by the Board of Works on repairs, etc.) amounted, in 1902, to £30,732 10s. 5d, the cost to the State of each pupil in average attendance being thus over £4. 10s. In individual cases the cost far exceeds this. The cost of the model school at Athy in 1992 was over £7 per head; while at Clonmel, Enniscorthy, Kilkenny, and Water-ford, it was over £6.
  "24. The cost of the model schools is thus far higher than that of the ordinary national Irish schools or the convent schools, which only cost the State from £1 5s. to £2 10s. per head."
  The Irish representatives had been asked for suggestions; he would venture to offer one as a remedy for this state of things. Hand over the mode! school to those who could make use of it; transfer the control so that the door might open to Catholic children; sell it, make it useful and let soma return be secured for the money spent upon it. There were those in Galway who could turn it into a useful institution. That was not all. A short time ago, want was felt for a boarding school for girls in Galway City and appeal made for support, which was so eagerly responded to that in a short time an elegant building was erected. The Dominicans stepped in and took possession and prepared it for the reception of the pupils, but the State, instead of assisting, taxed it so highly that the Dominicans could hardly meet the expense. To him, coming from the Province of Quebec, Canada, where such a tax would not have been tolerated for an instant, where the State was so generous in the matter of exemptions and subventions relating to education, this tax appeared an odious outrage. But it was tints that things were done in Ireland, always against the spirit, the wish, and interest of the people. It was thus that the art of government of a people was understood and practised. He was perhaps the most moderate among his fellow Nationalists, brought up as he had been under a better form of government and fairer institutions. He could not help saying, however, that Ireland

  455
  had no Government; for the three gentlemen sitting in this House practically represented nobody in Ireland; they were the gaolers of Ireland, the turnkeys of the vast prison into which Ireland had been converted.
  Let it not be said that the Irish people took no interest in the cause of education. They had erected colleges everywhere. They had convents such as few lands possessed, and ordinary schools. He was not prepared to admit that by the people generally no interest was taken in the ordinary national schools. They had confidence in the manager who was their trusted friend and in the teacher. But it was hardly to be expected that poor parents, condemned to work in England in order to obtain money to pay their way, could take so much interest as others. Whose was the responsibility? What did this Parliament give? Who built the schools? Again he asked—Where did the responsibility rest? On this Parliament, the majority of whom did not give one fig for Ireland; upon the abominable system of laws devised to make the country poor and to keep it poor; upon the system which never wanted, and never was intended, to have the children of Irishmen educated. While Parliament could not give too much money to already richly endowed Universities which happened to be the pets of this Parliament, Ireland could have no University acceptable to the majority of the people. While the State most liberally helped education in every way in this country, it starved Ireland in this important matter, and he held that the cause of primary education in Ireland should receive more encouragement and more generous support than was now extended by the State. The taxes which England imposed upon Ireland were expended upon works bringing no benefit to her. They had no quarrel with any country in the world—except with England—and they could well do without an Army and a Navy. They would have no quarrel with this country if they were loft to manage their own affairs. Their money, Irish money, was not spent for Irish purposes. Here was the chance of a reform and of a mighty reform. Let the State seriously undertake to help their schools, help in the matter of building and equipment,
  456
  and do such work as the State was supposed to do. The manager, the teacher, and the people understood their obligations, and, as at all times, would carry them out. For his part he had little hope for genuine reform in this matter until the right of the Irish people to the government of their own country should have been admitted, and until the only Parliament competent to deal with such matters should have been established—the Parliament of Ireland.
  COLONEL NOLANsaid he had only found during the whole course of the debate two speakers who had seemed to speak their minds and speak really to the question. One was the hon. and learned Member for Water-ford, who had plainly told the House that the whole question was wrapped up in the denominational question and that is would never be settled until that was taken into account. A great deal had been said about popular control, but very little as to the difficulties in the way of popular control. There was a large body of opinion in Ireland who would have nothing else but denominational schools and that was the question the Chief Secretary had to face. The whole question was that the teachers must be of the same religion as the children, and there was a very large section of the people of Ireland which would object to any system which did not permit that. It had been suggested that the present system should be done away with, but though it might not be a good system it was a much better system than many of those which had been mentioned. Ireland would not submit to the will of Parliament if it could help it and it would be absurd to suppose the Catholics of Ireland would ask for a system which would necessitate the surrender of the whole of the management, and give the whole, control of education in Ireland to this House. He had no objection to secular schools provided the various denominations had their own schools also. Then came the more insidious system of local control; there was a certain portion of the people who might adopt that system, but on the part of many, who hoped to keep out of Ireland local control of any kind, there was a very great objection to that.

  457
  He had been told on the best authority that the Catholic clergy in Ireland not only took the greatest interest in ordinary education but also in technical education. He did not admire the present system, but he thought it was at any rate infinitely better than any of those which had been suggested. The Chief Secretary had said that there was one hopeful germ and one glimpse of light in Irish education, and that was technical education. He agreed that the technical education committees as a rule had done well and had shown themselves capable of managing their own affairs. There had, however, been a little friction occasionally with the Department which did not leave those committees undisputed power. He thought hon. Members would agree that neither agriculture nor the development of technical education lent itself very much to a denominational system, but when they came to the teaching of the children they were bound to have some differences. Probably the Chief Secretary thought the system had worked well because the elected bodies had got the management of the system, although the Government had a certain amount of control. It was possible that the Chief Secretary might be right in saying that this was a hopeful germ, but he thought that under the present system it would be a long time before that germ was fully developed. In this debate the question of religion had been suppressed because it. was a rather awkward subject.
  With regard to the money, he thought it was a very awkward time to discuss this question upon the night before the Budget. The Chief Secretary had admitted that he would like to improve the sanitary condition of the schools, but he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that whitewashing was not the principal reform that was wanted. The system of heating the schools by fires was most primitive, because the children had to carry the turf to school. Now those children were beginning to dress a little better and naturally they did not (are about carrying turf to school. Ireland was a wet country, and an improved system of heating the schools was required. It had been said that in some districts there were too many schools and that a considerable sum of money was wasted in that way. He
  458
  agreed that the money spent on some 01 the Queen's Colleges was money wasted, especially in Galway and Cork, where the whole system was out of gear. In Galway and Cork they had in the Queen's Colleges beautiful buildings and good professors, but the population there would have very little to do with them. In those centres there was a very strong objection to any colleges with no religious teaching, and the colleges of Galway and Cork were situated in the centre of the county which had been celebrated for pride, poverty, and devotion. If the Queen's Colleges in Galway and Cork were conducted in a Catholic atmosphere they would have a very large college, whereas now they were practically being conducted without many students. The model schools were very good where they were used for educational purposes, but, where they were used to fight the Catholics they were a waste of public funds. The Chief Secretary was nursing the Development Grant, and he agreed that it was a good thing to have a prudent Chief Secretary. He thought, however, that the right hon. Gentleman was pushing things too far. The Chief Secretary had tried to settle a great many questions, and he hoped that before he left office he would be able to give the teachers of Ireland nearly as much as they got in England and Scotland, that they would be able to have the schools decently warmed and with better sanitary arrangements, even if the Chief Secretary gave a little trouble to his colleagues in the Cabinet.
  MR. SLOANsaid he took part in the debate for two reasons. The first was because he wished to associate himself, in the complaints made in regard to primary education in Ireland, with the Members opposite. The second was because he wished to dissociate himself with hon. Members opposite when they said it was one of the great necessities for Home Rule. The Chief Secretary had given them very little hope this session, if any at all. He said a few weeks ago in reply to the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, who said he stood there to ask for Home Rule, that he stood there to refuse it. But he could not see why all Irishmen, representing all parts, could not unite in

  459
  demanding for Ireland something that was reasonable and necessary without bringing in a lot of questions which did not concern the issue. The speech of the hon. Member for North Galway went straight to the root of the question. The hon. Member distinctly stated without reservation that the Roman Catholics in the South and West of Ireland would not have anything less than denominational education. That denominational education they felt a scruple about giving to the children of the North of Ireland. The hon. Member for South Tyrone, who had gone to the other side of the House to have a look at him, made a statement in the course of the debate which caused him to turn round and look very sternly at him. For a long time, he said, he had been carried away on the waves because of a belief that what was necessary for Ireland was not denominational education, and he found it was absolutely essential for him to depart from the views which he originally held.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: What I said was that I entered this House a resolute adherent of secular education, believing that it was the duty of Parliament to provide secular education and the Church would provide religious education. I said I had been swept away. First of all England paid for Roman Catholic education in England, and Scotland for Roman Catholic education in Scotland. It was possible for the Irish child in England and Scotland—Protestant countries—to receive religious education at the expense of the State, and impossible for them to receive it in their own country.
  MR. SLOANsaid the statement made by the hon. Member did not alter his opinion of what he had said. The North of Ireland had as much right to the attention and respect of the House as any other part of the country. No man with any idea of how a child should be taught could go to a national school in any part of Ireland without deploring the conditions under which that child had to be educated. Not only did the Chief Secretary admit that the sanitary conditions of the schools were unsatisfactory, as well as the average attendance which was necessary in order to get an assistant teacher, but the very
  460
  fact that these children were victims of a foul atmosphere was a question which ought to engage the attention of any Government more speedily than it had engaged the attention of the present one The Development Grant Fund, the equivalent of which was allotted to England and Scotland, ought, without any quibbling, to be devoted to primary education in Ireland, not kept for every change that took place in the, mind of some company like the Dingle Railway Company when it wanted to claim £10,000 or £:£0,000. The teachers had a great grievance. They had been alluded to by the hon. Member who seconded this Motion, who, he understood, was an expert upon the injustices which teachers suffered under. Out of a salary of about £50 or £60 a year those teachers had sometimes to provide necessities for the schools of which they were the principals, and that was not a state of things to encourage a man to do his work in a satisfactory manner. The residue grant which had been spoken of was never paid until about four months after it was due. He had often questioned the Chief Secretary about this grant, and his reply was that it could not be paid until the 31st March. After that they heard at the Congress of the National School Teachers, held in Belfast in the Queen's College, that when they went down to the post office there was no money there for their pay.
  He was not going to say very much regarding denominational education or the ever-increasing demand for Home Rule for Ireland. It was sufficient for him to say that he had always tried to do his part, as a humble individual to associate himself with every reform which he thought and believed was for the good of Ireland, at the same time maintaining his own principles. Not only had they to consider Ireland upon this question, but there was also a large section of English Protestants who had to be considered upon a subject which might arouse a great deal of hostility in the future. Could they not agree upon the common platform of primary education? Had they descended so low that they could not join hands to help the Roman Catholic and the Protestant child to get a better education, more sanitary schools, and to

  461
  place the teachers on a better footing? Could not secondary and technical education go up by leaps and bounds without this tremendous canker worm eating the vitals out of every debate in this House? He thought the Chief Secretary's reply had a disappointing tone about it, because another session of Parliament would have to pass before he could introduce a Bill dealing with this question. He had concluded from the debate that it was the intense desire of the Government to grapple with this great question, to revolutionise the present system of education in Ireland, and, if they got the opportunity, to bring about a reform which he hoped would meet with the acceptance of all hon. Gentlemen opposite. Therefore he had much pleasure in identifying himself with the demand made upon the Government.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that for twenty years he had full of despair, watched the fortunes of the Irish primary schools. It was a pathetic thing that Ireland, the home of learning in the dark ages, should have sunk into its present position. The speech of the Chief Secretary was the most hopeless to which he had listened since he had been a Member of Parliament. The Reports of the Government inspectors indicated a condition of things with respect to school buildings which should not be allowed any longer to continue. With these Reports before him, what was the answer of the Chief Secretary The answer was that it would take £40,000 to put matters straight. Money had been found for things less urgent, and the money must be found for matters of this sort. The fit of economy had come rather late in regard to this Government. It would have been well for the country if it had come when they were squandering hundreds of thousands of pounds. The Chief Secretary said that the Irish teacher could be dismissed by one manager, and he asked, so long as that was the case, what was the use of improving his position. Was that a fair excuse why nothing could be done?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the hon. Member had misunderstood what he stated.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid something ought to be done at once in regard to this matter. Many Irish teachers were personal friends of his own, and he wondered at the marvels they had achieved in the face of heart-breaking difficulties. According to Mr. Dale, the minor repairs of the schools in the country districts were often done by the teacher. The Chief Secretary seemed cordially to agree with Mr. Dale in his statement that the most vital defect in Irish education was the lack of any local interest in the conduct of the schools except among the clergy. Mr. Dale went on to suggest the creation of local authorities and the throwing of a larger financial burden than the present on the locality. Members of this House could probe the reason for the indifference of Irish parents to education in a way which would not become a public official like the author of this Report. The reason was that the system was superimposed upon them from the outside. It was not in harmony with popular sentiment, and the English Government, whether Tory or Liberal, had to learn the lesson that an educational system which might be suitable to England, Wales, or Scotland was not necessarily suitable to Ireland, and, if he might say so with great respect, his compatriots from Ireland had to learn that the converse also was true. The Government had recognised that in dealing with Scotland. A Bill had been introduced which conceded to Scotland every proposition which had been denounced from the Treasury Bench when asked for England and Wales. The Irish race had wit and genius in which there was a gold mine. The Government should cultivate that great national asset to the utmost as being the cheapest and most lasting security for the national prosperity and well-being.
  MR. LUNDONsaid he had been a teacher for forty years, and he knew something about the subject before the Committee. His belief was that the Irish national system had been going down since he was a young lad to the present hour. Some people might say that he was what was

  463
  called in the Latin language laudator temporis acti, but he could give reasons for stating that in some respects education in Ireland was better in former times than at present. For the first twenty years during which he was a teacher he had no difficulty in getting boys who had a knowledge of algebra, geometry, mensuration, and trigonometry, but in the later period of his professional work such boys could not be had from the national schools. He had also had some experience as a teacher in America, and he could state that the salaries paid to teachers in Ireland did not compare favourably with those paid in that country. He condemned the present system which required an average attendance of sixty before a school was entitled to a second teacher, pointing out that at certain seasons of the year, when work could be obtained in the fields, it was difficult to get the children to attend. The people of England did not know how things stood in Ireland. There was a class of people in the Augean stables called Dublin Castle who were no better than bloodsuckers or vampires. As to the staffing of the schools he would say that they required a great many more teachers if they were to have efficient teaching. It was pitiful to see the children as they went to school in the morning. Their condition was almost as bad as that of barbarians in Timbuctoo.
  Certain promises had been held out by the Chief Secretary; but they had not to deal with that right hon. Gentleman alone. There was the dark horse behind him, and they all knew that it was hard to break an old horse off his trot. He did not say that in any contemptuous way, but only repeated it as a common saying in Ireland. He denied the statement made by Dr. Starkie that there was a lack of capability or want of experience among the clerical managers of National Schools in Ireland. He had had more than forty years experience, and he knew that there were hundreds of men of great ability who were interested in all that concerned education and schools. Some of the ablest linguists and logicians in the country had been trained in the Catholic Colleges of Ireland in Maynooth and the various diocesan Colleges. He might instance the present Archbishop of
  464
  Dublin, whose great work on Theology, the De Ecclesia, could compare favourably with the writings of Gury or Perroni. It was easy to talk of the difficulty of discovering a remedy; but the remedy lay, as the hon. Member for Scotland Division had said, in Home Rule. If they ruled themselves, they would have a body responsible to the people to manage their education—a body composed of Bishops, priests, and laymen among whom there would be no bigotry. He hoped that the Government, whether of to-day, or the next day, would take up the case of Irish education, which was at present in a wretched state. There had been a falling off in national schools for a considerable time. When he was a pupil there were as many boys in the school in which he was taught who had a knowledge of trigonometry as there were now in the whole of the National Schools of all Ireland. He hoped that the Motion before the House, and the discussion upon it, would have some effect, and that the Chief Secretary would endeavour to bring round his colleagues to his view as to the necessity of an immediate improvement of the educational system of Ireland.
  MR. BOLANDsaid that this debate had been looked forward to all over Ireland with great interest, and he was sure that there would be disappointment with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary when it came to be, read. It was certainly expected that some indication would have been given as to what was going to be done in regard to the National Education Board. That board had not enabled the people of Ireland to obtain the education they wanted; and in no sense could it be called a National Board, because the education given under their system was anything but national—it was anti-national. That was shown by their attitude in regard to the teaching of the Irish language. After the Government defeat on the subject five weeks ago, he certainly expected that the Chief Secretary would have told them to-night what was to be done in regard to the teaching of the Irish language in the national schools; but all that they were informed was that the National Board had not yet made up its mind with reference to that

  465
  important subject. He hoped that the Chief Secretary would not allow the anti-national line in regard to the Irish language, taken up by the board, to be continued. A few weeks ago he referred to the system of teaching music in the national schools, and urged that a proper system of teaching music should be based upon the folk-songs of the people. Since then a small school-book had been put into his hands, and he was sorry to see only ten folk-songs in their national language in the collection. He maintained that it was the duty of the National Hoard to make a complete collection of national folk-songs for use in schools.
  MR. WOLFFsaid he had seldom listened to a debate in which there had been such unanimity of abuse as in the case of the National Education Board. Every hon. Member who had spoken declared that that board was the cause of the backward state of education in Ireland, and the strongest condemnation of the board had come from the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary himself.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he had devoted about ten minutes of his speech to showing what excellent work the board had done.
  MR. WOLFFsaid that the board might have had excellent intentions, no doubt, but the result had not been very great. Everybody knew that primary education in Ireland was miles behind that of England and Scotland, and there was no chance of an alteration being made unless the system was altogether changed. The Chief Secretary had said that there was no money, but he agreed with the hon. Member for Camberwell that that was no excuse whatever. If the state of the primary schools was such as Mr. Dale had shown it to be, then the people of Scotland and England would be the very first to say that the money must be found to remedy the existing state of affairs. His own belief was that a child ought to be able to go from the meanest cottage in the land to a primary school, then to an intermediate school, next to pass to a secondary school, and finally to the
  466
  University without a single penny of expense. That was his ideal, and it had been carried out in Germany and America; but in the meantime they must tackle primary education in an efficient manner. That could not be done until they had another kind of Education Board for Ireland. He was disappointed more than he could say at the speech of the Chief Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman might have given the House some idea of what he intended to do. He would, however, take the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he intended to do something, and in the hope and expectation of that he should support the Government in this matter.
  MR. FIELDsaid he would not go into the details of the complaints they had to make against the present system of education in Ireland. Irish education was in such a chaotic condition that it was admitted on all hands that it required amendment, and yet the right hon. Gentleman who was charged with the duty of governing Ireland in educational matters had just told the House that he had not quite made up his mind as to the necessity of carrying out this educational reform this session. At such a late hour he was going to detain the House only to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that in every country in the world at the present moment education was regarded as the most important factor of national progress. Hon. Members knew what was being done in this matter in Germany, France, Switzerland, and every other Continental country. Those who had read the Moseley Education Committee's Report would be able to contrast what was put forward there with the attitude taken up by the right hon. Gentleman in regard to Ireland, and they could compare his policy with what had been done in America. In America £60,000,000 a year was devoted to education from the State resources, and local contributions were made most liberally. American millionaires also devoted a large amount of their spare money to the purpose; of education; but when they pleaded the cause of education for Ireland the right hon. Gentleman told them that he had no time this session to consider it, and no money to devote to such

  467
  a purpose. He considered that that was a very unsatisfactory state of things, and that the subject was deserving of more careful consideration than it appeared to have received at the hands of the Government.
  MR. WYNDHAMdissented.
  MR. FIELDsaid the right hon. Gentleman had his opinion on this matter, and he had his, and after the report of this debate had appeared in the papers he would see who was right. It was the duty of the Government which took upon itself the function of governing Ireland to do it in a proper manner according to the needs and exigencies of the time. Education was a most important matter for any country, for the real progress of a country depended upon its education. They had been told by the Chief Secretary that they must wait. He would not go at length into all the details of the defects of Irish education, but he would ask what was the Government for? What were Ministers paid for? The function of a Government was to unravel difficulties and to provide
  remedies for them in the country they governed, and if they were not capable of carrying out those duties they ought to permit other men to take on those responsibilities. He was convinced that the result of this debate would be received with the greatest possible disappointment in Ireland. It was the duty of the Government to try to solve this problem. He agreed that the different forms of education ought to be coordinated the one with the other, and that they could not approach it in a piecemeal fashion. He urged upon the Government the immediate necessity of reconsidering this question, which was one of the most pressing of Irish grievances. All Irish representatives were agreed as to the absolute importance of primary education in Ireland. He hoped that some attempt would be made to formulate a sensible coordinated plan to put an end to the present chaotic condition of education in Ireland.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 172; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 82.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Butcher, John George

  Doughty, George

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Duke. Henry Edward

  Arkwright, John Stanhope;

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dyke Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

  Chapman, Edward

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Faber, George Denison (York

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

  Give Captain Percy A.

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Coates, Edward Feetham

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George. H

  Balcarres, Lord.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Colomb, Rt. Hon. Sir John C. E.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Compton, Ford Alwyne

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Baltfour, Kenneth R. (Christch,

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Forster, Henry William

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cross, Alexander(Glasgow)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(TrH'mlets

  Bigwood, James

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gore, Hn G.E.C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Bond, Edward

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Ball William James,

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Gretton, John

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sinclair Louis (Romford)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

  Martin, Richard Biddnlph

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Maxwell, Rt Hn. Sir H. E. (Wig'tn

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Harris, Dr. Fredk, R. (Dulwich)

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Smith, H. C (North'mb, Tyneside

  Haslet, Sir James Horner

  Milvain, Thomas

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Spear, John Ward

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.

  Morgan, David, J. (Walthamstow

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylrmer

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

  Helder, Augustus

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Stirling-Maxwell. Sir John M.

  Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Myers, William Henry

  Taylor, Austen (East Toxteth)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Tominson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Percy, Earl

  Tuff, Charles

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Pier point, Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Keswick, William

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Valentia, Viscount

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks, N. R

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Warde, Colonel C E.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton and. Lyne

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Randles, John S.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rasch, Sir. Frederick Carne

  Wilson-Todd. Sir W. H. (Yorks.)

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Ridley, Hon, M. W. (Stalybridge

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Wylie, Alexander

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wyndham-Quin, Col W. H.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  M'Arthur Charles (Liverpool)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  M'Calmont, Colonel James

  Seton-Karr, Sir Henry

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Freeman-Thomas. Captain F.

  M'Kean, John

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Gladslone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Black, Alexander William

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Blake, Edward

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall.

  Boland, John

  Hammond, John

  Mooney, John J.

  Brigg, John

  Harrington, Timothy

  Murphy, John

  Burke, E Haviland

  Harwood, George

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Caldwell, James

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hemphill Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Crean, Eugene

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Cullinan, J.

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Malley, William

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Mara, James

  Delany, William

  Langley, Batty

  O'Shee, James John

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galway

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Dobbie, Joseph

  Leamy, Edmund

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Doogan, P. C.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Trice, Robert John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leng, Sir John

  Reddy, M.

  Edwards, Frank

  Levy, Maurice

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lundon, W.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rigg, Richard

  Fenwick, Charles

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Field, William

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Russell, T. W.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Crae, George

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  470

  471

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitchapel)

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R. (Northants

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Shackleton, David James

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Taylor. Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Young, Samuel

  Sheehy, David

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ure, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THK NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

  Slack, John Bamford

  Weir, James Galloway

  Soares, Ernest J.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Motion made, and Question. "That this House do now adjourn"[Sir A. Acland-Hood) put, and agreed to.

  Main Question again proposed.
  MR. WEIRcalled attention to the congestion in certain areas in the Highland crofting counties; and urged that more adequate arrangements should be made by the Congested Dis ricts Board for the settlement of the people on the land. The conditions of life in the Island of Lewis were, he said, becoming worse every year. No land had been secured, and nothing was being done. Access to the land was the one thing needful. The congestion was greater than ever, and the number of houses in which the cattle and occupants were separated merely by a handrail or low partition had not decreased. The people of this country had no idea of the terrible conditions under which people in the Island of Lewis had to live, and he considered that the Government were to blame for not taking action. I was the duty of the Congested Districts Board to take steps to alter this state of things. The farms should be broken up and arrangements should be made with the proprietor of the island, who, he believed, was prepared to come to terms. He had been unable to get information from the Scottish Office as to whether any negotiations were in progress. When he asked what steps were being taken, he was advised to wait. Well, he had done so
  472
  for a good many years, and, so far as he could ascertain, the authorities were still doing nothing. Why did not the Congested Districts Board make an effort to secure some of these farms? Why did they not make arrangements for migration schemes? It was very painful for him to have to raise this question time after time. The people in the Highlands wanted access to the land in order that they might earn their living from it, and they ought not to be penned up as they were in abominable and insanitary huts. Deer forests were being extended throughout the Western Highlands. Whenever the lease of a farm ran out, the farm was converted into a deer forest, and thus the chances of the people of securing holdings were daily being minimised. Yet the Congested Districts Board sat with folded arms and did nothing! Let them remember that there were no industries in that part of the country—there were no mills and no factories, and the fishing industry had been ruined by illegal trawling, which had been carried on to an alarming extent all around the coasts. The poverty of the people was most distressing. Let hon. Members go and see for themselves, and, if they did that, he was convinced that they would soon force the Congested Districts Board to take action.

SUPPLY
Considered in Committee
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1904–5.

SUPPLY

  CLASS I.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, 'That a sum, not exceeding £35,500, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the '31st day of March, 1905, for expenditure in respect of Royal Palaces."
  MR. DALZIELmoved to report Progress on the ground that an understanding had been arrived at, that no Votes should be taken that night, and that the Government should content themselves with getting the Army (Annual) Bill through.
  Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Dalziel.)
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARXOLD-FORSTER,)said he believed that that was the arrangement.
  MR. DALZIELsaid he should like to know how far the Government proposed to proceed with the Army (Annual) Bill, in view of the fact that the customary circular with reference to the measure had not been distributed to Members. He hoped they would not press the Third Reading that night.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Sir A. ACLAND-HOOD,)said they would be content i they got the Committee stage that night, and he would put down the Third Reading for to-morrow.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]
Clause 4:—
MR. CALDWELLproposed the insertion of words with a view to the correction of an apparent error. The Clause referred to the Army (Annual) Act of 1881. But that Act had been amended in several instances in recent years, and, in order to make the clause clear, he ventured to suggest the necessity of introducing the words as amended by the Army (Annual) Acts.
Amendment proposed—
"In Clause 4, page 3, line 10, after the word 'Act' to add the words 'as amended by the Army (Annual) Acts.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)
Question proposed "That those words be there added."
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. ARNOLD-EORSTER,)said he had no objection to the

475
Amendment, although he did not know it was altogether necessary. The Army (Annual) Act was reprinted in 1901, and that, he was advised, was the Act that was really now being amended.
MR. CALDWELL: Then put in the words, "As amended by the Army (Annual) Act, 1901."
Amendment, as amended, put, and agreed to.
On Clause8:—
MR. DALZIELasked for some information as to the object of the clause. Was it proposed to reduce the compulsory allowance by a soldier to his wife from 1s. to 6d. per day?
MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: No. The object is to enable the allowance to be increased, not reduced.
MR. DALZIEL: That shows the difficulties caused by our not having the Bill before us.
Clause agreed to.
Amendment proposed—
"In Clause 9, page 4, line 6, after the word 'Act,' to add the words 'As amended by the Army (Annual) Act, 1891.' "—(Mr. Caldwell.)
Question proposed "That those words be there added."
MR. ARNOLD FORSTERsaid he would not oppose the Amendment though he considered it to be mere surplusage. They were now amending the 1901 Act. which no doubt amended the 1891 Act.
MR. CALDWELLpointed out that the words dealt with in this clause were not contained in the 1901 Act, but were to be found in the 1891 Act. The Committee must amend the Statute, and not rely merely upon printed copies of an Act of Parliament bringing the Act up to date, and issued solely for the information of the service.
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,)said that if the hon. Member would look at the Army Act. 1885, he would find there a provision that the Army Act should always be available as amended by any subsequent Act. The present Bill referred to the Army Act, which, read by the light of the Statute of 1885, meant the Army Act of 1881 as amended by any subsequent Statute. Therefore the Amendment was unnecessary.
MR CALDWELLsaid the reference in the Act of 1885 was a different thing altogether.
SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the Amendment was quite unnecessary, bur in order to save time he would accept it.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

ADJOURNMENT.
Adjourned at nineteen minutes before Twelve o'clock.