Sitting of 19 March 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
The Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of the Chairman of Ways and Means.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 62 COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. 62 has been complied with, viz.:—
  Cheshire Lines Committee Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

PETITIONS.
  COUNTY COURTS JURISDICTION EXTENSION BILL.
  Petitions in favour: from Herne Bay; Halifax (two); Preston; Nottingham; Wimbledon; Ramsgate; Newcastle-upon-Tyne; and, Margate: to lie upon the Table.
  DETENTION OF POOR PERSONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour: from Houston; Govan; and, Lochwinnoch; to lie upon table
  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  Petitions against: from Newhaven; Prescot; Pershore; Kingston-upon-Hull; Sunderland; Wem; Newcastle-upon-Tyne; Eastry; and, Woodbridge; to lie upon the Table.
  ROMAN CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY IN IRELAND.
  Petition from Alloa, against establishment; to lie upon the Table,
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  NEATH, PONTARTDAWE, AND BRYNAMAN RAILWAY BILL.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 18th March; Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 82.]
  ARMY (CLOTHING FACTORY).
  Annual Account presented, of the Royal Army Clothing Factory for the year 1901–1902, with Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 83.]
  ARMY (ORDNANCE FACTORIES).
  Annual Account presented, for the year 1901–1902, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 84.]
  PUBLIC ACCOUNTS (ARMY VOTES).
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 16th March, 1903, under the Appropriation Act, 1902, authorising the temporary application of surpluses on certain Army Votes for the year 1902–1903, to defray excesses on certain Army Votes for the same year [pursuant to Resolution of the House of 4th March, 1879]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 85]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES

  New German Tariff—Counter-vailing Duties.
  COLONEL SADLER: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been directed to the increase of duties on British manufactured goods exported to Germany under the new German: tariff; and will he consider the advisability of imposing countervailing duties on German manufactured goods imported into Great Britain, or taking steps to bring about a revision of the tariff.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour:) The new German tariff to which my hon. friend alludes is not in operation, and there has consequently been no increase in the duties on British manufactured goods exported to Germany. If he will refer to the issue of the Board of Trade Journal, dated 12th March (which he will be able to consult in the Library), he will find a statement on page 545 as to the character and scope of this tariff, and will see that before coming into force the tariff' is liable to modification as the result of commercial negotiations between Germany and other Powers. Representations as to the effect of the tariff, if applied to imports from the United Kingdom, on British trade with Germany have already been addressed through the Foreign Office to the German Government at the instance of the Commercial Intelligence Committee of the Board of Trade. The matter will continue to be carefully watched.

  Waltham Abbey Sanitary Inspector-Visits to Government Property.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will explain why the Sanitary Inspector at Waltham Abbey is not allowed to visit the Government houses and cottages, as well as the houses of private owners.
  (Answered by Mr. Hayes Fisher.) Under Clause 327 of the Public Health Act of 1875 War Department property is exempted from disturbance or interference on the part of the Local Authority.
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  It does not appear, moreover, that the local sanitary inspector has ever made any attempt to visit Government houses at Waltham.

  Open Space in Palace Gardens.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can now state whether there is any chance of the piece of ground at the corner end of Palace Gardens being retained as an open space.
  (Answered by Mr. Hayes Fisher.) The land north of the footpath to Church Street is let for the erection of seven detached houses of the same character as those already erected in the gardens. The small plot south of that path will be retained as an open space.

  Education Schemes returned for alteration—Case of the Loughborough Town Council.
  MR. LEVY: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will state in what respects the scheme under the Education Act, 1902, submitted to the Board of Education by the Loughborough Town Council did not comply with the requirements of the Act; why it was disapproved and returned by the Board of Education; and how many schemes submitted by councils have been returned for alterations.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) On 3rd March a scheme for an Education Committee was submitted to the Board of Education by the Loughborough Town Council. In the covering letter sent with the draft scheme it was suggested to the Board that the Chairman of the Education (Advisory) Committee and the Town Clerk would come to the Board for consultation as to various points in the scheme. As a result of that interview the Board communicated on the following day to the Town Council in writing the various suggestions made at the interview for improving the scheme (a) by securing the inclusion on the Committee of persons of more widely varied educational experience, and also (b) by making one or two drafting amendments to make the scheme more effectively carry out the

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  intentions of the Council. These suggestions were adopted by the Town Council and publication of the scheme has now been sanctioned. I have said before in answer to questions addressed to me by the hon. Member that it is impossible to recount the communications which puss between the Board and local education authorities in the course of the formation of schemes.

  Postal Facilities on the Continent.
  MR. TOULMIN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that arrangements exist between Germany and Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Germany and Switzerland, Austria, Bosnia, and Herzegovina and Switzerland, and Denmark and Norway and Sweden, whereby postal privileges superior to those of the Postal Union are secured, and that a letter from England which would cost 3s. 9d. is carried between the above-named countries for sums varying from 2½d. to 4d.; and whether he will consider the advisability of endeavouring to secure similar arrangements for this country.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I am aware that arrangements exist between the countries named in the Question under which the domestic rate of postage in each is applicable to correspondence passing from one to the other; but, as I have already informed the hon. Member in reply to a similar Question, I am not prepared to propose a general reduction of postage between the United Kingdom and foreign countries to our domestic rates.

  Postal Officials as Candidates for Parliament.
  MR. T. BAYLEY: To ask the Postmaster General whether he is prepared to extend to officers of his own department the privilege allowed to officers of the naval and military forces of being placed on half-pay for the purposes of seeking election to Parliament, with the right of resuming their position in the service; if not, will he state what would be the position of an officer of the Postal Telegraph Department seeking and obtaining election to Parliament.
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  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) By an Order in Council of the 29th November, 1884, any person serving in an established capacity in the permanent Civil Service of the State is bound to-resign his office as soon as he issues his-address to the electors or in any other manner announces himself as a candidate for a seat in this House.

  Nominations for the Navy—Number of Vacancies.
  MR. REGINALD LUCAS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state how-many candidates will be nominated for the June examination for the Royal Navy, and what proportion this will bear to the number of vacancies available.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) Nominations for the candidates between 14½ and 15½ will bear about the same proportion to the vacancies as on the previous occasions. No final decision-has been arrived at with regard to the exact number of candidates to be nominated for the Osborne College, but the nominations will only exceed the vacancies by a small number to allow for failures, as explained in my speech on Monday evening last.†
  †See page 935.

  Vaccination—Costs of Executing Distress Warrants.
  MR. LEVY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that at Melton Mowbray on 19th January the police authorities, in executing three distress warrants for the recovery of fines and costs imposed under the Vaccination Acts, amounting respectively to 13s., 35s. 6d., and 40s. 6d., charged each defaulter, in I addition to the usual fees, £4 7s. 6d. for the services of an auctioneer, and £1 8s. 4d. for the use of a van which in two of these instances was not used for any excepting purely police purposes; and whether he will consider the desirability of issuing such instructions to the chief constables throughout the country as will insure due regard for moderation in the execution of distress warrants under the Vaccination Acts.
  † See page 935.

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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.) I have no information as to the particular cases mentioned in the Question, but I may say that the costs of enforcing such fines are properly charged to the defendants, and that the costs are necessarily increased when special police precautions are required. I do not think that I can properly issue to the police such instructions as the hon. Member suggests.

  Increase of Pay to British Troops in India Increase in Indian Budget.
  MR. BUCHANAN: To ask the Secretary of State for India how much of the £536,400 increased Army expenditure in the present Indian Budget is due to the increase of pay to the British troops in India.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) I have not received full details from India showing the cause of each increase and decrease of expenditure allowed for in the Budget; but, since the rate of pay of the British soldier in India is to be the same in 1903–4 as in 1902–3, no part of the increase to which the hon. Member draws attention can be due to the cause which he suggests. The chief increase owing to the new recruiting scheme will take effect from 1st April, 1904, and will I have to be provided for a year hence in the Budget for 1904–5.

  Guard Booms—Improved Accommodation.
  MR. COLSTON: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he can see his way to improve the sleeping accommodation of soldiers on guard in the intervals of the performance of their duties.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) A new pattern of guard bed is now on trial and is understood to give general satisfaction.

  South African War Medals for American Nurses on Hospital Ship "Maine."
  MR. TENNANT: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the American orderlies and male nurses on the hospital ship "Maine" have received
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  the war medal for their services to our sick and wounded in South Africa and China, he will state why the five certificated American female nurses in charge have been refused the medal.
  (Answered by Air. Secretary Brodrick.) Instructions were despatched to principal Ordnance officer, Woolwich, on 13th instant, to issue these medals.

  Ireland—Burtonport Extension Railway Charges.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken to secure that reasonable rates and fares only shall be charged on the Burtonport Extension Railway recently but out of public moneys and leased to the Lough Swilly Railway Company.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The extent to which the new department can intervene in such matters is defined by Section 17 of The Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899. No representations have been made to the department under the provisions £ this section.

  Committees and Commissions now Sitting.
  MR. NORMAN: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will give a list of the subjects of public interest now being investigated, or to be investigated, by Committees, departmental and otherwise, and Royal Commissions.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The hon. Member will find in the Estimates for Temporary Commissions a list of the Commissions now sitting. Announcement has already been made of Royal Commissions in respect of the following matters, viz., the St. Louis Exhibition, Food Supply in time of War, and the Militia and Volunteer Services. The lists of Select Committees appointed by the House are printed and posted in conspicuous places in the House of Commons. In addition to the foregoing, a public promise has been made of an inquiry into the constitution and functions of the Board of Trade and the

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  Local Government Board; but it would not be in accordance with practice, or, indeed, in the public interest, to publish a list of the various departmental committees which from time to time are held in Government Offices. These inquiries frequently relate to questions of administrative detail, and are of a confidential character.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Army Commissions.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, if he will grant the Return as to the number of Commissions granted during each of the years 1899–1902.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY, Lancashire, Westhoughton): Yes, Sir.

  Training Ships on the East Coast.
  MR. FREDERICK WILSON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, whether, in view of the seafaring population of the East Coast, he will consider the expediency of a training ship being stationed at Great Yarmouth.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Wood-bridge): There are already two training ships on the East Coast, namely at Halwich and Queensferry. The interests of the Service do not at present require the addition of another ship.

  South Africa—Native Labour Question
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can inform the House of the nature of the Conference of the South African Colonies on Native Labour, and how the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies and the Protectorates are represented.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): The Conference was summoned primarily to discuss Customs questions, but it was agreed between all parties before the meeting that the native question and the question of alien immigra-
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  tion should be discussed at the same time. Other matters of general South African interest may be also included, but only if all parties to the Conference have agreed. The Cape, Natal, Transvaal, Orange River Colony and Rhodesia are each represented by five Members nominated by their respective Governments. The Transvaal and Orange River Colony have each nominated two official and three unofficial Members. The Protectorates may be regarded as represented by the fact that the High Commissioner is in the Chair.
  *MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: Can the right lion. Gentleman say when the Conference is likely to report?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No.

  South African Shipping Ring.
  MR. PEEL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether it is the practice of the Colonial Office, in obtaining tenders through their brokers for the carriage of goods between this country and South Africa and vice versâ, to invite firms outside the Shipping Conference to quote; and, if so, will he give the names of firms so invited during the last six months.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The Colonial Office transacts no shipping business. The Crown Agents for the Colonies undertake business of this description on behalf of the Colonial Governments for whom they act and to whom they are responsible for its conduct. In ordinary circumstances the Crown Agents employ a shipping agent in the City to obtain offers for the freight they desire to secure and the shipping agent is responsible for obtaining the best terms possible. In the present condition of the South African shipping market, it is impossible to entertain tenders from firms outside the Conference Lines, unless there is a certainty that those firms will be able in the future to provide the requisite shipping facilities. The acceptance of a casual outside tender would place the Crown Agents, or any other shipper absolutely at the mercy of the Conference.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES (Carmarthen Boroughs): Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that an agent in the City cannot ship by the Conference lines and by the outside lines?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes.

  Distribution of the West Indies Relief Fund.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the £250.000 granted by Parliament in July last for the relief of the West Indies has been distributed; and, if so, what amount has been apportioned to each Colony, and on what principle the distribution has taken place.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The following distribution of the grant has been made—Barbadoes. £80,000; British Guiana, £69,000; Jamaica, £10,000; Trinidad, £41,000; St. Lucia, £3,000; Antigua, £13,500; St. Kitts-Nevis, £4,100; Montserrat, £600. A sum of £18,800 remains as yet unappropriated, but will probably be mainly allotted to Antigua. In distributing the grant, regard has been had to the relative necessities of the several Colonies, and to their average exports of sugar.
  MR. LOUGH: Was the distribution made exclusively to the owners of sugar estates?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir.

  Private Bill Committees.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the right hon. Member for the Watford Division, as Chairman of the Committee of Selection, if he is now prepared to state in how many cases during the last and preceding years Members asked to be excused serving on Private Bill Committees on the ground of private profession, business, or avocation; and in how many such cases they were excused; whether, when so excused, it was on the general ground of the peculiar nature of the Member's profession, or of special inconvenience that would be caused at the particular time when the name was placed on the Panel; and if he can say
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  how many hon. Members belonging to the so-called learned professions in active practice, served on Private Bill Committees in 1901 and 1902 respectively.
  *MR. HALSEY: I can only give the same answer that I gave to a similar Question on a previous occasion. I am unable to state the number of cases, but each application was most carefully considered on its own merits by the Committee of Selection. The object of the Committee is, and always has been, to select those Members best qualified, in their judgment, for the work of each Committee, and at the same time to carry out their duties with as little inconvenience as possible to individual Members.

  Death Duties on Licensed Property.
  SIR W. HART DYKE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor f the Exchequer whether he is aware that Death Duties have been paid upon licensed property at the rate of eighteen years purchase in the case of freehold, and of sixteen years for leasehold property; and that notice has been immediately given to terminate the said licences the following year; and whether he can suggest any remedy for such a state of things.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE, Croydon): Under Section 7 (5) of the Finance Act, 1894, the basis of valuation for Estate Duty is the price which the property would fetch if sold in the open market at the time of the death of the deceased. This principle is applied to licenced property, and if, as not infrequently happens, the executors dispose of the property shortly after the death, then the actual value realised is taken. The capital value in such cases bears very varying relations to the annual rental. Of course the probability or otherwise of house remaining a licensed house is a overning element in determining the value. If in any case a licence is withdrawn immediately or soon after the death of the owner of the premises, and the estate is still under administration, the Board of Inland Revenue would
  † See (4) Debates, ci., 1106.

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  always be open to consider an application for readjustment of the value put upon the licensed property for Estate Duty.

  Sugar and Corn Taxes.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the total number of articles which have been made liable to Customs Duties under the Sugar Tax and the Corn Tax respectively, the number of prosecutions for smuggling any of these articles initiated by the Government, and the amount of penalties that have been recovered.
  *MR. RITCHIE: The articles liable to the Corn and Sugar Duties are those specified in the Finance Acts, together with such other goods as may be found to contain any of these dutiable articles as a part or ingredient, as provided in sub-section 1 of section 7 of the Finance Act, 1901. There have been no prosecutions by the Customs for smuggling goods liable to the Sugar and Corn Duties, except in respect of saccharin. Five such cases have been carried to completion, resulting in the recovery in two instances of mitigated penalties of £125 and £25 respectively. Of the remaining three cases one defendant is still in prison pending payment, and in the other two the defendants have been released after undergoing terms of imprisonment. In addition, there are five cases in which proceedings have not yet been brought to a conclusion.
  MR. LOUGH: The right hon. Gentleman has not given me the number of articles liable under each head. That is the object of my Question.
  *MR. RITCHIE: There is no fixed number. There is a specified class, and any goods which come in and which the Customs authorities think are dutiable are open to a charge of duty.
  MR. LOUGH: Is there no certainty, then, about an article beforehand, and may it not be free to-day and liable to duty tomorrow?
  *MR. RITCHIE: No; the same article which is not liable to-day will not be
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  liable to-morrow, but any article which turns out to have any ingredient in it which is taxable will be taxed.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor gave us a schedule of the list of articles taxable under these Acts. Are we to understand that the schedule has-been increased?
  MR. RITCHIE: No, Sir; if my hon. friend will refer to the schedule he will see that it is a statement of classes only. There may be sub-divisions of the classes according to circumstances.

  King's Scholarships.
  MR. HELME: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will consider the I advisability of rescinding the regulation preventing information being given as to the marks obtained by candidates for King's Scholarships who fail to obtain a place in the second class.
  THE PARLIMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Sir I WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University): The marks obtained by individual candidates in the King's Scholarship Examination: have never been published up till the year 1900 inclusive; the list was arranged in such a way as to show which candidates obtained exactly the same number of marks. In the year 1901 this arrangement was; given up in favour of a system of bracketing candidates in divisions of equal merit within each class. After careful consideration the Board of Education are of opinion that the system has great advantages over that previously in force, as it avoids attempts to discriminate between the merits of candidates whose marks only differ very slightly, and they are of opinion that to publish the exact number of marks obtained by each candidate would be of no real value to the candidate and of no advantage to the conduct of the examinations.

  Sheep Worrying in Scotland.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can state when he expects to be able to introduce a Bill dealing with sheep worrying in Scotland
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY,: I hope to introduce a Bill before Easter.

  Parcels Post Rates.
  MR. STUART SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether, in view of the fact that parcels can be sent by parcels post to Bremen and from there by the German post to America at a less cost than direct from England, he will consider the desirability of making arrangements to place British merchants on an equal footing with Germans in this respect.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): It has long been the desire of the British Post Office to conclude a parcels post agreement with the United States, but we were unable to secure their assent to any such proposal. We there-fore made arrangements last year with an Express Company for the establishment of a parcels post between the two countries. The United States recently expressed a desire to reopen negotiations on the subject, and His Majesty's Government are now in communication with them upon the subject.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: Has the Postmaster-General's attention been called to the delays in the deliveries by the Express Company in New York?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  Wages in the Post Office.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil): I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the remarks made by Mr. Justice Phillimore when directing the grand jury at the opening of the Glamorgan Assizes, in which he animadverted on the low wages paid to five Post Office employees who were to be tried, and expressed the hope that the Post Office authorities would consider this state of things; and whether he proposes taking any action in the matter.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: As these cases have not yet been adjudicated upon, I must ask the hon. Member to postpone his Question. When the cases are finished, I shall be prepared to answer the Question.

  Post Offices on Licensed Premises.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will grant a Parliamentary Return of post offices on licensed premises in the United Kingdom at the present time.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Such a return could not be prepared without a considerable amount of trouble, which would not, 1 think, be justified by the results obtained, but I may say at once that it is the settled practice of the department to secure, wherever possible, unlicensed premises for the transaction of postal business.

  Aberdeen New Post Office.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he can state how long it is intended to take for the completion of the post office buildings in Aberdeen; and whether, seeing that only £7,500 was taken in the Estimates for 1902–3, and £10,000 for 1903–4, out of a proposed expenditure of over £52,000, he would consider the dear-ability of taking a further Supplementary Estimate this year to expedite the work.
  MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: The date fixed in the contract for the completion of the work is 11th November, 1905. The First Commissioner of Works is advised that there is difficulty in the way of obtaining supplies of suitable granite for the external elevations; but the contractors have a sufficient number of workmen to deal with the stone delivered. It is not anticipated that more than £10,000 can be spent in 1903–4. It must be remembered that, owing to the deduction of the contract reserves, this payment will represent a far larger amount of work done.

  Irish Training Colleges.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to sake the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant the Return relating to Training Colleges in Ireland which appears on this day's Paper.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM, Dover): I am communicating to the hon. Member the figures indicated in the proposed Return. This, I hope, will meet the object he has in view. The information does not appear to me to be of sufficient importance to be embodied in a Parliamentary Paper.

  White Estate near Bantry.
  MR. GILHOOLY (Cork Co., W.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can explain the delay in the sale of the White Estate (near Bantry); and whether, seeing that this estate was listed for sale in 1898, he will take steps to expedite its disposal to the tenants.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The solicitors having charge of the sale of this estate have been required by the Land Judge to explain the delay in the proceedings.

  Primary Education in Ireland.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it has been decided to allocate to primary education in Ireland the sum of £146,250, being the equivalent grant in view of £1,300,000, allocated to England by the Education Act of 1902; and, if so, whether its disbursements will be at the disposal of the Commissioners of National Education, or will portions of it be ear-marked for special purposes.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I expect shortly to make an announcement on this subject.

  Irish Teachers' Capitation Grant.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the capitation grant due to National teachers on; the 31st December of each year is not paid until the middle or end of the
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  following April, and if he will give instructions for this money to be paid when due.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Question presumably refers to the payment of what is known as the residue of the School Grant. The amount of this residue in respect of any year cannot be accurately determined till the end of each financial year. The School Grant accruing from the 1st January to the 31st December last, which forms part of the consolidated incomes of teachers, is paid out of the money voted for the current financial year, so far as the allocation under the first three provisions of the fourth schedule of the Act of 1892 is concerned, and so far as the residual grant is concerned from the Vote for the next financial year. Hence payment of the residue for the year ended 31st December last cannot be ascertained and made till next month.

  Employment of Children Bill.
  DR. MACNAMARAI beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, when it is proposed to proceed with the Second Reading of the Employment of Children Bill.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I hope an opportunity may be found for it on an early day, at all events before Easter; but I fear I cannot fix the actual day.

  The Budget.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether the Budget will be introduced before Easter; and, if so, on what day.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Not before Easter.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. BRYCE: I should like to ask the First Lord if he can give me an indication what Bills it is proposed to take on Monday and Tuesday next, if there is time; and when the House will rise for the Easter recess.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As the House knows it is proposed on Monday afternoon to take the Report of the Navy Votes A and 1, and Votes 13 and 15. I do not

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  think it is very likely that on that afternoon much leisure will remain for legislation. In the evening it is proposed to take the report of the Vote on Account; also the report of Ways and Means and the first reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. I do not think much else can be done. On Tuesday afternoon the second reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill will be taken. Any question may be raised on that, and I do not think much time will be left for legislation on Tuesday afternoon. On Wednesday afternoon it is proposed to take the Committee stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill. On that no debate can take place, and it is proposed to allocate that afternoon to the introduction of the Irish Land Bill. On Thursday the Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill will be taken at the afternoon sitting, and after that Supply. As to Supply I should be glad to know what Votes hon. Gentlemen would like brought on. On Thursday there can be no question of legislation. It is a Supply day.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Is it intended to move the Speaker out of the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates before Easter?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, I should think that the motion that the Speaker leave the Chair for going into Committee on the Civil Service Estimates should be made before Easter.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Then as there are some motions down of a very important character I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give us as long notice as possible.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, I will take cure to give a few days notice, I have not yet worked out in detail the programme before the Easter holidays. It is a little premature to say on what date the House ought to separate. The question is an agreeable subject of reflection.
  MR. WHITLEY: Will Thursday next be considered a counted day for Supply?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The business is Supply. It is not for me to interpret the rules.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)asked whether it was not a fact that under the new rules Supply must be the first order of the day, and that the Bill must, consequently, be put second. Is it proposed to introduce the Irish Laud Bill in the House or in Committee?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: In the House.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Then what about the Standing Orders?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I must have notice about the Standing Orders. I cannot carry them in my head.

  STANDING COMMITTEES.
  Ordered, that all Standing Committees have leave to print and circulate with the Votes the Minutes of their Proceedings arid any Amended Clauses of tills committed to them.—(Lord Edmund Fitzmaurice.)
  NEW MEMBER SWORN.
  Charles Frederick Hutchinson, esquire, M.D., for the County of Sussex (Eastern or Rye Division.)
NEW BILLS,
  ADDENBROOKE'S HOSPITAL BILL.
  "To confirm a scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the management of the Charity called Addenbrooke's Hospital, in the town of Cambridge, in the county of Cambridge, regulated by the Act of the seventh year of George the Third, chapter ninety-nine," presented by Sir Richard Jebb; supported by Mr. Brand, Sir Robert Penrose-Fitz-Gerald, Sir John Gorst, Mr. Raymond Greene, Mr. Griffith-Boscawen, and Mr. Rose; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 22nd April, and to be printed. [Bill 110.]
  STREET TRAFFIC REGULATION BILL
  "To provide for the Regulation o: Traffic in Streets," presented by Mr. Shackleton; supported by Mr. Crooks; to be read a second time upon Friday, 8th May, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]

  PETROLEUM BILL.
  "To amend the Petroleum Act, 1879," presented by Mr. Ure; supported by

  1235
  Colonel Denny, Mr. John Burns, and Mr. Trevelyan; to be read a second time upon Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]

  SOLICITORS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To amend the law relating to Solicitors in Scotland," presented by Mr. Ure; supported by Mr. Renshaw and Mr. Crombie; to be read a second time upon Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 113.]

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR MR. A. J. BALFOUR formally moved, "That the Committee of Ways and Means lie not interrupted this evening under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour though opposed."
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)said that the second part of the Motion brought it within the ordinary Rules of the House and enabled it to be debated. He was aware that the time at the disposal of the Government was short, and that very necessary things required to be done. He did not, therefore, propose to argue against the Resolution. But he did desire to remind the House that the privilege which it had enjoyed for centuries of moving Amendments to the Motion that the Speaker leave the chair on going into Committee of Ways and Means had been withdrawn this year. He rose now merely to assert the right of the House to debate a Motion of this kind.
  MR. JOHN ELLISagreed that when the House for the first time entered on a Motion of this kind since the remodelling of the Standing Order's, it was desirable that the occasion should not pass without remark. He regretted that the Prime Minister had not vouchsafed to the House some reason for making the Motion. The right hon. Gentleman was getting too much into the habit of making these Motions as if they were a matter of course, and he trusted that in future when the exigencies of the public service rendered such a Motion necessary, a few words of explanation would be given them.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am extremely flattered by the anxiety of the hon. Member to hear my oratory—I should have thought it is displayed sufficiently often to the House. The reason I did not explain the Motion is that it does not require explanation. We cannot finish our financial business for the year unless we introduce the Consolidated Fund Bill on Monday, and we cannot do that unless we get through the Ways and Means Committee Stage to-night, otherwise we shall have to interfere with the private Members' privileges on Friday.
  Ordered, That the Committee of Ways and Means be not interrupted this evening under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour though opposed.—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

  SUPPLY [2ND ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]
  Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1903–4 (Vote on Account).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £20,265,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charges for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, viz.—

  Civil Services.

  CLASS II.

  £

  Colonial Office

  25,000

  CLASS IV.

  Board of Education

  6,000,000

  CLASS II.

  Board of Agriculture

  65,000

  CLASS III.

  Crofters Commission, Scotland

  2,000

  CLASS I.

  £

  Royal Palaces and Marlborough House

  40,000

  Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

  50,000

  Houses of Parliament Buildings

  16,000

  Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

  30,000

  Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

  20,000

  Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

  18,000

  Revenue Buildings

  225,000

  Public Buildings, Great Britain

  225,000

  Surveys of the United Kingdom

  90,000

  Harbours under the Board of Trade

  7,000

  Peterhead Harbour

  6,000

  Rates on Government Property

  250,000

  Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

  110,000

  Railways, Ireland

  80,000

  CLASS II.

  United Kingdom and England:—

  House of Lords Offices

  2,000

  House of Commons Offices

  12,000

  Treasury and Subordinate Departments

  40,000

  Home Office

  60,000

  Foreign Office

  30,000

  Privy Council Office, etc.

  5,000

  Board of Trade

  75,000

  Mercantile Marine Services

  30,000

  Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

  3

  Charity Commission

  15,000

  Civil Service Commission

  18,000

  Exchequer and Audit Department

  25,000

  Friendly Societies Registry

  3,000

  Local Government Board

  85,000

  Lunacy Commission

  5,000

  Mint (including Coinage)

  5

  National Debt Office

  6,000

  Public Record Office

  10,000

  Public Works Loan Commission

  5

  Registrar General's Office

  19,000

  Stationery and Printing

  320,000

  Woods, Forests, etc., Office of

  8,000

  Works and Public Buildings, Office of

  30,000

  Secret Service

  40,000

  Scotland:—

  £

  Secretary for Scotland

  25,000

  Fishery Board

  8,000

  Lunacy Commission

  3,000

  Registrar General's Office

  5,000

  Local Government Board

  6,000

  Ireland:—

  Lord Lieutenant's Household

  2,000

  Chief Secretary for Ireland

  16,000

  Department of Agriculture

  75,000

  Charitable Donations and Bequests Office

  1,000

  Local Government Board

  25,000

  Public Record Office

  2,000

  Public Works Office

  18,000

  Registrar General's Office

  6,000

  Valuation and Boundary Survey

  7,000

  CLASS III.

  United Kingdom and England:—

  Law Charges

  35,000

  Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

  27,000

  Supreme Court of Judicature

  140,000

  Land Registry

  20,000

  County Courts

  8,000

  Police, England and Wales

  18,000

  Prisons, England and the Colonies

  340,000

  Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

  140,000

  Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  14,000

  Scotland:—

  Law Charges and Courts of Law

  30,000

  Register House, Edinburgh

  15,000

  Prisons, Scotland

  40,000

  Ireland:—

  Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions

  35,000

  Supreme Court of Judicature, and other Legal Departments

  45,000

  Land Commission

  55,000

  County Court Officers, etc.

  46,000

  Dublin Metropolitan Police

  45,000

  Royal Irish Constabulary

  600,000

  Prisons, Ireland

  50,000

  Reformatory and Industrial Schools

  55,000

  Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  3,000

  CLASS IV.

  United Kingdom and England:—

  £

  British Museum

  80,000

  National Gallery

  10,000

  National Portrait Gallery

  3,000

  Wallace Collection

  4,000

  Scientific Investigation, etc., United Kingdom

  22,000

  Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales

  42,000

  Scotland:—

  Public Education

  750,000

  National Gallery

  3,000

  Ireland:—

  Public Education

  730,000

  Endowed School Commissioners

  400

  National Gallery

  3,000

  Queen's Colleges

  2,500

  CLASS V.

  Diplomatic and Consular Services

  250,000

  Uganda, Central and East Africa Protectorates, and Uganda Railway

  320,000

  Colonial Services

  300,000

  Cyprus, Grant-in-Aid

  85,000

  Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable

  32,000

  CLASS VI.

  Superannuation and Retired Allowances

  280,000

  Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, etc.

  2,000

  Miscellaneous, Charitable and other Allowances

  1,000

  Hospitals and Charities, Ireland

  17,000

  CLASS VII.

  Temporary Commissions

  25,000

  Miscellaneous Expenses

  16,087

  Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

  ——

  St. Louis Exhibition, 1904

  ——

  Total for Civil Services

  £13,035,000

  Revenue Departments.

  £

  Customs

  350,000

  Inland Revenue

  830,000

  Post Office

  3,800,000

  Post Office Packet Service

  250,000

  Post Office Telegraphs

  2,000,000

  Total for Revenue Departments

  £7,230,000

  Grand Total

  £20,265,000

  MR. BRYCEsaid he did not rise to start any debate upon the Colonial Vote, though he was glad to see the Colonial Secretary had not suffered in health from his travels by land and sea and was apparently quite ready to enter upon such a debate. The Colonial Vote had been put down first, not at the request of the hon. Members on that side of the House, but because the Government very properly thought that the House should have the earliest opportunity of expressing an opinion or of putting questions upon a subject in which it was deeply interested—the state of affairs in South Africa. Whether the right hon. Gentleman himself desired to make a statement was not known to him, but there was a general desire for a full discussion on many important matters connected with our South African policy. The House, however, at present, was without the materials which alone would enable it to usefully embark on such a discussion. The Colonial Secretary, in the course of his visit to South Africa, had many interviews, some public and some private, as to which their only source of information was newspaper correspondence, and until, in relation to these, the House had more information than had been made known, it was not in a position to express any opinion on the right hon. Gentleman's views or on any decision at which the Government might have arrived. It would be well not to embark on an imperfect, ill-informed discussion; and he rose for the purpose of asking the right hon. Gentleman in what form he proposed to give the information it was generally agreed was required. Even if the right hon. Gentleman's speeches were all printed it would not be sufficient because it was quite clear

  1241
  that he must have said many things in a tentative way. The speeches, too, did not necessarily embody the formal decisions arrived at. He took it there must have been some record kept of the decisions arrived at. Could they not have that placed in their hands. He would like, too, some information in the shape of figures.
  It would perhaps, be as well for him to enumerate the points upon which in formation was desired. The first of these had relation to the question of native labour, and the various suggestions made for the importation of labour, or for giving forcible inducement to the natives to work. He would like to know if the Government had come to any decision, and, if so, what decision. He would also like to know what was to be done with regard to taxation of the natives. The next subject was that of loans, and the question was what portion of the loan of £35,000,000 would be applied to the satisfaction of existing obligations, and what portion would be devoted to railway and other public works. The second loan, proposed to meet the expenses of the war, was discussed at Johannesburg, and he desired to know the terms arrived at, and what certainty there was that the rest of the loan, over and above the ten millions underwritten, would be raised. Were there any other conditions beyond those already made public attached to the transaction, and who were the persons with whom the right hon. Gentleman dealt? Next he wished to know what was the financial position in regard to the disposal of public land in the new territories and a plan of assisted emigration. The gold laws, the form of contribution from old and new mines, the amount of revenue, and the prospect of it being sufficient to bear various charges at present borne by this country, were other matters of interest.
  This did not exhaust the many points of interest arising, upon which he did not anticipate there would be objection on the part of the Government to give the information at their disposal. The Papers presented within the last few months could not convey the latest opinion of the Government, and they perhaps might desire some consideration as to the form in which
  1242
  the necessary material for discussion should be presented. He hoped he had made it clear to the House that this was not a convenient moment for entering on the debate owing to the lack of material on which to form an opinion. All he desired to have from the Government was an assurance that, as soon as possible, adequate material should be forthcoming, and that then they would be allowed a full opportunity of discussing various questions, the importance of which, to the future of South Africa, it was impossible to overestimate.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): I do not rise to answer in any fulness the questions of the right hon. Gentleman, but merely to deal briefly with the question of procedure he has raised. The view of the Government was that, my recent mission to South Africa having come to an end, the House might very naturally desire to make some remarks on anything that has taken place, or to ask further information as to incidents that occurred in the course of that mission. Therefore, they offered, as I understand with the full assent and almost the desire of right hon. [Gentlemen opposite, to put down the Colonial Vote first on this occasion. But if right hon. Gentlemen opposite do not wish to take advantage of the opportunity, nothing can be easier than to allow the debate to die away and to take such further opportunity, as may suggest itself to them, for any discussion in which the House may be pleased to engage. The right hon. Gentleman, however, appears to be under some misunderstanding when he talks of lack of materials. I made arrangements with Lord Milner that reports should be made upon the main subjects, that is to say, immigration, railways, finance, the constitution of the legislature, and other matters of very great importance, which I could present in Blue-book form to the House. Those Papers have not yet reached me, but Lord Milner telegraphs that they are on their way. As soon as they arrive they shall be presented, and I hare no doubt they

  1243
  will give a great deal of new and interesting information to the House of Commons. But as regards my tour, I have no additional materials to furnish.
  The right hon. Gentleman appears to think that I have come to a vast number of decisions which have not yet been communicated to the House. That is not the case. It is quite true that in addition to my public work, I think, I saw something like 150 deputations, and had personal communications and interviews with something like 500 representative men of all parties and of various shades of opinion. My object in having those interviews was, as I said when I started on my journey, to inform my own mind with regard to the various questions with which the Government hereafter may have to deal. All of those interviews, and most of the deputations, were private, and there is no information whatever to communicate to the House in regard to them. Where they resulted in a decision, that decision has already been communicated to the House, not officially, perhaps, but through the ordinary channels. Those decisions are, I think, confined to two, viz. the question of the loan dealing with the indemnities, and the way in which the Government propose to deal with the claims for compensation, and with the receipts and promises made by the military authorities. Only with regard to those two, I believe, has any definite decision been arrived at.
  The right hon. Gentleman refers, for instance, to the question of native labour. No proposals were made with regard to native labour, except a minor one that I should use my influence with the Foreign Office to allow an experiment to be made in certain districts which have not hitherto been utilised for the purpose, and to see whether native labour could be obtained from those districts. I understand that, as a result, my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is prepared to give authority to allow 1000 natives to be recruited in Central Africa, as an experiment, for service in the mines. That is, I believe, absolutely the sole result of our proceedings hitherto, and the only decision which has been arrived at. As regards the two points upon which a decision has been arrived at, I am quite prepared to
  1244
  give the fullest explanation to the House. But as regards the loan, I can conceive that it might be thought more advisable that that matter should be discussed when the Bill comes before the House.
  MR. BRYCE: The right hon. Gentleman refers to the £35,000,000 loan I There is also the question of the other loan.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: To both. When the £35,000,000 loan is discussed, I think it would be a proper occasion for considering also the question of the £30,000,000. In the meantime I might say, in reply to one suggestion of the I right hon. Gentleman, that the arrangement for the loan is to be taken as absolutely confined to that arrangement; it is not connected with, or related to, or conditional upon any other arrangement of any kind whatever, either direct or indirect.
  MR. ASQUITH: When I will the Bill come on?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: After Easter. The question of the gold law, on which I heard a great deal in South Africa, is not one on which I can be called upon to pronounce any opinion. A draft gold law has been prepared, and will be laid before the new Legislative Council, which I hope may meet in the course of the present month or next month. There has been some difficulty in getting the nominated members whom we wished to place upon that body, but when it is completed an early meeting will be called, and the gold law will be one of the first measures referred to it.
  I do not quite understand what the right hon. Gentleman means by assisted immigration. There is no proposal, as far as I know, to assist immigration by the Government of this country, and no proposal to assist immigration by the Government of the Transvaal, except by the favourable terms on which land will probably be obtainable in the new Colonies.
  MR. BRYCE: There was a suggestion that the Government were buying land with a view to selling it to settlers.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The whole question of land settlement, to

  1245
  which I attach the greatest importance, is one which will be dealt with in the reports which are coming home from Lord Milner.
  Another point is with regard to compensation, and what I may call the eleemosynary grant under the terms of peace, and the payments in accordance with the promises of the military. The House is aware that by the terms of peace the sum of £3,000,000 was allotted as a free gift in order to provide those who were destitute, on returning to their homes, with the essentials requisite to enable them to resume their avocation. In accordance with that provision a considerable sum of money has already been expended in connection with the work of repatriation, which has been going on in a manner which is perfectly marvellous, and which reflects the greatest possible credit upon Lord Milner and all concerned. Since the war something like 100,000 have been repatriated upon their farms, kept there so long as it was necessary by the supply of rations, and assisted with stock and material; and now, for the most part, are in process of restoring their fortunes.
  Beside the £3,000,000, a further grant of £2,000,000 was made by the House of Commons to be applied to those who had assisted the British Government—British subjects who also had suffered in the course of the war. In addition to that, large sums have been spent in resettlement and repatriation: and beyond all there remain the claim*—partly claims of grace, but principally claims of right—due to the promises made by the military while they were in occupation; that is to say—as the military went about the country they had very often to requisition stock of various kinds, and also material, and for these they gave receipts which have now to be honoured. Already a sum of nearly £2,000,000 £1,600,000 or more—has been paid out in return for these receipts, and I hope that the rest of the money will be distributed in the course of the next few weeks.
  But a much wider liability is due to those proclamations which promised protection to the men who surrendered before the end of the war. The
  1246
  claims under this head have been very numerous, amounting, I believe, to something like 100,000, and have involved enormous demands. Of course, in such a case, as may be well understood, these applications have had to be subjected to a very narrow scrutiny. The process, as long as it remained in the hands of military commissions, was much delayed. A military commission was by the necessities of the case, owing to military emergencies, a changing body. Its chairman might be summoned home or sent on other work, and a new man have to be appointed. The heads of some of these commissions have been changed three or four times in the course of as many months. In these circumstances it was most difficult to act according to any settled principle. The difficulties which arose in dealing with such a vast variety of cases were found to be extremely great, while at the same I time the operations of the civil commission, which had to deal with the two grants to which I have referred, were delayed until they could tell how far the persons who were applying for assistance were likely to derive that assistance from military funds. Accordingly, after discussing the matter fully with the General Commanding-in-Chief and with Lord Milner, we prepared and submitted to the Government a scheme under which the whole of the future administration of all moneys to be granted in the shape of either free gift, compensation, or payment on receipts, should be placed under the control of the civil administration. The War Office agreed to pay down a net sum of £3,000,000 in discharge of all demands upon the military authorities, and the civil Government of the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony has undertaken to bear the whole charge whether it be more or less, with this proviso—that if it be less, which I do not think is at all likely to be the case, the balance will be returned to the military authorities. The advantage of that arrangement I think the House will at once perceive. It will secure the uniform administration of the whole business; and it will place the administration in the hands of those who have to consider policy as well as economy. The military authorities naturally felt it to be their duty to reduce these charges as much as possible, and in some instances I confess I have been impressed with the conviction that the rules laid down did not carry out in full

  1247
  the promises which had been made, and it would be most impolitic to insist upon such rules. But the civil administration, which has to look to the future pacification and contentment of the people, will no doubt take a just and generous view of the situation and be prepared to deal with these claims in a way which, on the whole, I believe, will be satisfactory. I had an immense number of representations of all kinds made to me during my visit, showing the extraordinary variety of the claims, and the difficulty of laying down rules, and, as a result of those communications, new regulations have been laid down and new Commissions are now at work with every expectation that whereas, if we had left it in the hands of the military authorities, the work would have taken three or four years; it will now be completed in the course of the next few months. When that difficulty is removed from our path I have not the slightest doubt whatever as to the favourable prospects of the agricultural portion of the population in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony.
  In the meantime I have to acknowledge the co-operation which a great number of the Boers have given to the Government in their efforts to deal with this difficult matter. Some of those who fought against us to the end have joined and worked upon the repatriation and settlement Boards, and their action upon those Boards has elicited from their British colleagues expressions of the highest admiration. On the other hand, we ought to do nothing which would tend to pauperise the population. Therefore they have joined with us in dealing with the claims which have been made in a firm and just, as well as a sympathetic spirit. I think that will give the right hon. Gentleman the information which he desires as regards the points which were settled during my journey. As regards the rest, I have only to add that I am still ready to deal with any incident in that journey, or to give, as far as lies in my power, any information to the House which it may desire, in regard either to the matters which the right hon. Gentleman touched upon, or in regard to any others that arise in regard to our future administration in South Africa. I certainly do not feel that any good purpose would be served by my undertaking to
  1248
  read a lecture to the House on my journey and travels in the South African continent.
  MR. ASQUITH: I wish at once to say that it was not in consequence of any request from this side of the House that this Vote was put down first, because, until we have fuller and more authentic information, we cannot review the whole of the ground which is necessary to enable us to come to a decision. I understand that it is only in respect of two points that actual decisions were arrived at during the time the right hon. Gentleman was in South Africa.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Except, of course, on points of ordinary administration.
  MR. ASQUITH: One of the decisions relates to the resettlement, and the other to the loans. As regards the loans, I understand that we shall have a full opportunity of discussing them when the Bills are introduced after Easter. I will, therefore, only make one remark. I am glad to hear that the loans will be dealt with entirely independently of any other question connected with the general settlement in South Africa; and that they will be discussed exclusively on their merits. As regards almost all the rest of the subjects which have formed the text of the interrogation of the right hon. Gentleman, it is quite plain that until we get the information lie has promised us, it is impossible to have anything in the nature of a complete or exhaustive discussion. I should like to know, and the country would like to know, from the right hon. Gentleman or Lord Milner, how far the bodies who are at present entrusted with legislative authority in these two colonies contain a representative element, and what progress is contemplated as likely to be made, within a measurable distance of time, in the development of self-governing institutions. I think that is a matter upon which, even at the present stage, the right hon. Gentleman might, perhaps, give us a little more information.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid he rose for the purpose of asking a question. He understood from

  1249
  the Secretary of State that a decision had been come to by His Majesty's Government that natives should be recruited in Central Africa. The recruiting of natives in Central Africa for the purposes of labour in the Transvaal gold mines required to be most carefully safeguarded unless it was to sink into virtual slavery. In the case of the recruiting in India of coolies for service in the sugar plantations, most elaborate regulations were made by the Government of India for the purpose of securing their proper treatment during the time they were working for white employers, and provision was also made for their repatriation in India when their term of service had come to an end. He desired to know whether the regulations under which the recruiting of natives would take place would be laid on the Table of the House, in order that the country might judge whether they were sufficient to preserve the rights of the natives and to prevent, under the cloak of recruiting, the real curse of slavery.
  MR. A. BLACKsaid the debate seemed to be more or less in the nature of a catechism, and he had another question to ask about the language. He understood from the right hon. Gentleman that only two questions had been decided, namely, the question of the loans and the question of compensation. From a statement made yesterday he also understood that the language question had also been decided upon.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The orders with regard to education were passed before I went, to South Africa. The other matter which the hon. Member s now referring to was the subject of an absolutely private conversation, and to that conversation I should not like to make any further reference.
  MR. BLACK: But the right hon. Gentleman made reference to it in this House in reply to a Question.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, I only contradicted a statement in regard to it.
  MR. BLACK MR. BLACK said the right hon Gentleman had laid great stress upon
  1250
  the question of compensation, and he had also alluded to the rights created by reclamation. He wished to know what proclamation was alluded to. Did the right hon. Gentleman mean the proclamation annexing the Republic, and did he consider this country liable for damage done by the military forces after that proclamation was issued? After the Franco-German war the French Government compensated all parties for damage done by the military, whether done by their own soldiers or by the Germans. The question was whether, in annexing these territories, they did not make those territories themselves liable for all this compensation. With regard to compensation, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned hat in addition to the grant of £3,000.000, the military receipts were to be respected, and the £3,000,000 was to be set apart for further compensation. A further £2.000,000 append in the Estimates this year, and he wished to know if this was in addition to the £3,000,000 already provided for. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had come to no decisions in South Africa, but he was inclined to think that it would have been very difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to have spoken so often as he did without announcing some decisions. At Pietermaritzburg the right hon. Gentleman stated that it was obvious that full self government would not be granted until three conditions were fulfilled. In the first place he said that self-government would not be given until active loyalty, as against passive loyalty, had been shown; secondly, until the Colony should undertake its own defence; and thirdly, until the guarantee loan was paid off. It seemed to him that in giving that decision t he right hon. Gentleman vitiated the whole concern. They would like to know what he meant by these conditions of self-government. With regard to native labour, had the right hon. Gentleman heard anything from the native women about their hardships directly, or was it from the Johannesburg millionaires that he heard of the grievances in regard to these native women?
  With regard to these loans, the Member for East Fife had stated quite properly that full discussion upon this subject might

  1251
  very well be delayed until the Loans Bill was before the House. With regard to the loan of £5,000,000, he would like to know if the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony were liable for it, and was it a loan simply to be charged upon the assets to be acquired for railways and other public works I Was this country to have any say as to how these assets were to be administered and what return was to be got from them? It was said that those who paid the piper should call the tune, and he understood that they would call the tune with regard to the administration of the railways and rates to be charged. With regard to the £30,000,000 loan how was that to be worked? Under the terms of surrender, undertakings were given that no charge should be made upon landed property as compensation for the war. Was it to be charged upon the Transvaal as a whole, and was that consistent with the terms of surrender? If not, what was the money to be charged upon, and who was to undertake the charge? He took it that the Government of the Transvaal could not segregate its territory and declare that one part was liable for a certain charge and another part was not liable. The right hon. Gentleman must have some method of observing the terms of surrender. What means were to be taken for raising the interest on the £30,000,000? He thought if the right hon. Gentleman answered this catechism some light would be thrown on these matters.
  *MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)said there were a few points on which lie desired information from the right hon. Gentleman, and he would state them very briefly indeed. The right hon. Gentleman had informed the House that he received over a hundred deputations during his visit to South Africa. He was sure they all sympathised with the right hon. Gentleman in the amount of labour that entailed on the limited time at his disposal. But there was one deputation which was not received, and the refusal to receive which had caused considerable dissatisfaction throughout the mining regions of the Transvaal. The white miners of the Transvaal had considerable grievances, certain changes
  1252
  having been made in the law which adversely affected them. The Transvaal Miners Association and the Trade Council, he was advised, requested the right hon. Gentleman to receive a deputation and hear their complaints. He was receiving deputations from the mine owners and other property owners, and naturally the workpeople thought they too would be received, but they were refused.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: It may simplify matters if I say that the hon. Gentleman has been misinformed. I received several deputations from the working classes, including the Trades Council and also the Transvaal Miners Association.
  *MR. KEIR HARDIE*MR. KEIR HARDIE said he was much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but that was contrary to the information supplied to him. Another point on which he desired information had reference to the white miners in the Transvaal, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give him an equally satisfactory assurance on the subject. Under the old laws of the Transvaal mining claims were allocated by allotment, and in this way every working miner had an equal chance of drawing a favourable lot, and becoming possessor of one of those claims. Recently, however, he was informed that the law had been altered, or it was proposed to be altered, so that these claims, instead of being disposed of as formerly, were to be sold to the highest bidder.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Gentleman has really been most unfortunate in his informant. What he has stated is not the case. There was a proposal—I am not certain whether it was passed into law by the late Government—to establish a lottery in regard to those claims, but no such lottery, I believe, was then held. The practice then was, that when the mining area was I proclaimed it was open to everybody on a certain day, and people came in great numbers the night before, and as soon as the hour struck they formed up on the ground, and pegged out their respective claims. That law has not been altered, and the statement that the

  1253
  lots have been put up to auction is entirely inaccurate. Of course, the matter will be dealt with by the new gold law, but that is at present only a draft law and has not been submitted to the Legislative Council.
  *MR. KEIR HARDIE*MR. KEIR HARDIE said there was another point on which he desired to put a few questions to the right hon. Gentleman. He associated himself entirely with the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Cambridge University that in securing natives from Central Africa great care should be taken to safeguard their rights and liberties as freemen. Among the many pledges given previous to the war, and during the earlier days of its continuance, none was more explicit or solemn than that the rights of the natives were to be rigidly preserved, and that anything approaching, even the appearance of, forced labour was to be neither encouraged nor permitted. But since those days there had already been the imposition of, a new tax in the Transvaal upon natives. The old tax of £2 per hut had been extended. Not only was that tax still paid, but £2 per wife was also claimed as an additional tax. It was self-evident, disguise the fact as they might, that this meant forced labour. The natives were able to live in comfort without going to the mines to work, but in order to induce them to go to the mines to work they were being called upon to pay a sum in money which could only be obtained by their proceeding to the mines to work them and to earn wages. This was forced labour, and there was no use in pretending that it was not. All the sophistry that was used about making the native pay his share of the taxes was a mere blind to prevent the people of this country from seeing and realising the truth. If the mine owners of the Transvaal would treat natives fairly, and pay them the reasonable wages which were paid before the war, there need be no great difficulty in obtaining the necessary supply; and if native labour in South Africa was not adequate there was plenty of available labour in England, which could be obtained for the mines, if only right wages were paid. It was sometimes said white labour was not suitable for the
  1254
  mines, but at this moment the agents of the mining companies of the Transvaal were scouring Europe outside of England for white men. The objection to the British workman was not that he would not work in the mines but that the employers refused to pay the wage necessary to enable him to live a comfortable life in South Africa. [Hear, hear.] He would also like to know from the Secretary for the Colonies whether it was the case that the old Sunday laws, by which unnecessary Sunday labour was prohibited in the mines of the Transvaal, were being violated by the mining companies since work was resumed; and also whether the harbour works at Simons-town were being constructed by means of British labour, or whether cheap labour from the Continent—Poles, Italians, and others—was being used; and whether, if that was the case, it was not a violation of the terms of the contract.
  MR. PEELsaid he would like to make one or two observations in reply to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil. The hon. Member was under a complete misconception as to the idea that any British minister would countenance anything in the nature of forced labour in South Africa. He had spoken about the possibility of white labour being obtained for the working of the mines, and he said that agents had gone all over Europe to try to discover white labour to work in the mines. He himself believed, and it was known to all those who understood mining in South Africa, that it was impossible to get white labour to work in the mines of that country. It might be possible to obtain abroad a certain amount of white labour of a very undesirable kind, but he did not believe it was possible to get the right kind of white labour from this country to work in these mines.
  *MR. KEIR HARDIE*MR. KEIR HARDIE said this was not so. At a meeting of the Gold Trust in London a few weeks ago the Chairman gave three reasons why white labour from this country was not used in the mines; first, because it would cost too much; secondly, because white labour from this country would introduce the trail of the trade union serpent; and

  1255
  thirdly, because 100,000 Englishmen taken to the Transvaal would hold the government of the country in the hollow of their hands, and, with all respect to the working men, Lord Harris said the government should be where the brains were.
  MR. PEEL MR. PEEL said he was no familiar with the remarks which had been quoted by the hon. Gentleman, but he knew something about the mines, and he could tell the Committee that one of the great reasons why it was difficult to employ white labour was that in no part of the world could white and black labour be got to work together on equal terms. That was a thing well recognised in South Africa, in America, and in any country where there was black labour. He believed that there was a great field for skilled British labour, and the more they got native labour to fill up the mines the greater would be the demand for skilled labour in that country. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil said it was only necessary for the mine owners to pay more to the natives in South Africa in order to get any amount of labour. He had some figures on this subject which he thought disposed of the view the hon. Member took of this question. He believed it was not possible in South Africa, south of the Zambesi, to get sufficient native labour to work the mines. Of course South Africa could not be compared with many other portions of Africa. It could not be compared with West Africa, where there was a kind of civilisation, and where there was a large population. This was a country which had been invaded at different times, and the number of people scattered over the area was very sparse indeed. The figures which he had showed that six millions represented the whole of the native population south of the Zambesi. Now, supposing they took the proportion, which he believed was taken in France, of the active able-bodied people to the whole population at one in thirteen, that would give something like 400,000 for South Africa, south of the Zambesi, who were capable of active labour. What numbers were required for the mines? Before the war 97,000 were employed in the mines, and at the present moment there were only 50,000 so employed. He believed that at a low calculation 150,000 might easily be employed,
  1256
  and if the development which they all expected from recent indications, and from the visit of the Colonial Secretary, were to take place, no doubt 30,000 or 40,000 more could be employed. That I would give 200,000 labourers—or half! the number of able-bodied men in the country. It was, of course, impossible I to expect that one-half of the active able-bodied population could devote: themselves to labour in the mines. There were enormous quantities of these I men employed on the farms and in I domestic service; and there was this further fact—that they were told there I was to be a great development of railway construction in South Africa; eight hundred more miles of railway were to be built in that country. That, of itself, would, at a modest computation, employ something like 30,000 more natives. When these reductions were made it was found that the able-bodied population in South Africa was scarcely sufficient, even if any amount of pay or the highest bribes were offered, to supply the mines as they were, and certainly not as they would be under some future system of development. Then it must be remembered that it was not every native or every class of native who were fit for work. Take the Basutos, who were a vigorous population always ready for; and inclined to war, but who were not anxious to labour in the mines. He I wanted to deal frankly with this matter and put aside all considerations of forced labour. That was absolutely out of the question, and nobody would agree to anything of the kind. He would also put aside the controversy in which Mr. Phillips had been engaged as to getting labourers for the mines South of the Zambesi. That labour was not to be bought with money, because it did not exist. He should like to know what was the actual policy of the Government on this matter, because it was a matter of extreme importance.
  The prosperity of the Transvaal very largely depended upon the development of the mines. The price of living there, as everybody knew, was extremely high, and it was only if there was a rapid development of the mines that the cost of living would be lowered, and that they would be able to attract the white population which they all wanted in South Africa.
  Various suggestions had been made, and among them that native labour should I be brought from Central Africa and Uganda. He was more familiar with the conditions existing in Uganda than in Central Africa, and he disliked the idea of bringing labourers from Uganda for the reason that this country had recently spent large sums of money in developing the railway in Uganda. There was not a large excess in the number of labourers there, and they wanted to get back some of the money they had spent there. The only effect of importing labourers from Uganda, supposing they could be got, would be to raise the price of labour in that country, and make its development much more difficult. But there was another matter familiar to those who knew that country. It was generally supposed that the native savage was more capable of bearing hardships and the ill effects of climate than people like themselves, who enjoyed late hours and big dinners. He believed that was not the case. From the sea-board the land rose by terraces to the heights which bordered the Great Central Plateau of Africa; and he believed it was the fact that if the natives were transported from one plateau to another they suffered from diseases which they were able to combat on their own plateau, and with a slight rise of temperature they were unable to live. How much more would that apply if the Government or the mine owners were to bring down native labourers from Uganda to a totally different climate, and set them to work in the mines under totally different conditions to what they were accustomed to. Much as he was interested in mines in South Africa he was himself afraid I hat a solution of that kind was wholly impossible, and therefore he dismissed the question of the importation of native labour from Uganda.
  Then there was the question of coolie labour from India. There were great difficulties attending that also. Of course if our own subjects were brought from India we could not bind them down to work merely in the mines, and when they had worked a certain term to return at once to India. We must allow them, if they wished to
  1258
  remain in the country, to settle there. He believed that there was a very great objection to the importation of labour, from India on the part of the Indians themselves who had settled in Natal, and who would suffer from the competition of natives brought from India under any kind of indenture. What he wanted to point out was that the impossibility, or difficulty of getting the requisite amount of labour from South Africa, south of the Zambesi, or from other parts of Africa, and the further difficulty, or impossibility of obtaining white labour, because of the prejudice existing between white and black la hour wherever they were employed together in any part of the world, had a very important bearing indeed on the question of the loan and the debt which was going to be placed on the Transvaal. That debt amounted to something like £65,000,000, and hon. Members could easily calculate for themselves the interest on that large amount. The income of that country was about £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 a year, and it was starting at once with a debt of something like fifteen times its income; if that was compared with the National Debt of Great Britain, calculated at fifteen times the Annual Budget, it would be seen what an enormous burden the Transvaal would have to bear. It would amount to a debt of £228 per head of the population. The inference he drew from that was not that they ought to diminish the amount, but that they must look with extreme care to all the sources of revenue that existed in that country. They must look to the mines on which the prosperity of the Transvaal depended, and the facilities for the payment of the war debt which so many people were anxious to put on South Africa. In conclusion, he wished to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the success of his visit to South Africa, on the number of deputations he had received, on the number of speeches he had made, on the great mobility he had shown—a mobility which perhaps would put to shame many of our most distinguished generals; and he could only hope that some of that oil which the right hon. Gentleman had scattered so freely and impartially on both parties in South Africa would be reserved to be shed on the troubled political waters at home.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDONsaid it seemed to him somewhat extraordinary that the British Central Africa; Protectorate, which was already short of labour for the construction of their much needed railway—and which, on that account, was making very little progress—should be deemed capable of sending away natives to South Africa in order to work in the mines there. If that was to be the policy great care should be taken that any natives recruited were entirely voluntary recruits. He knew that in this he had the sympathy of the Secretary for the Colonies because that right hon. Gentleman said in 1896 that "he had grave doubts as to the wisdom of direct inducements being offered to chiefs to supply native labour as it might lead to something like compulsory labour which could not be permitted." And in 1899 the right hon. Gentleman had repeated the same warning to the British South Africa Company. He hoped that nothing of that kind would be allowed by the Foreign Office. The Under-Secretary of the Foreign Office would know of a case which had been tried in the High Court of Central Africa, at Blantyre, with reference to the; arbitrary conduct of the native police. He held in his hand a letter from Mr. Sharp, the Administrator of the Protectorate, in which that Gentleman acknowledged that the Assistant Director and the Chief Constable acted quite improperly in attempting to secure the services of natives who were already working for other Europeans. That showed how very important it was, when the actual officials were censured for improperly seeking to induce natives to work in the South African mines, to see that the recruiting should be very carefully supervised. He regretted that it should be done at all, for he believed, with the hon. Member who had just sat down, in the harm done by moving natives to a climate to which they were not accustomed, and that the British Central Africa Protectorate needed all their men for the construction of their railway.
  SIR ROBERT REID (Dumfries Burghs): I desire to ask one question. I wish to know if the Committee can have a statement of what has been spent for compensation in the new colonies, in order that we may know what the exact
  1260
  financial position is. I am not objecting to that expenditure; but I think we should have an exact statement of it, in order that we may know exactly where we stand. There is a kindred matter on which I wish to ask for information; and that is with reference to the financial position of the colonies themselves. Can we have an account of their revenue and outlay past and prospective, in order that we may know where we are.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I think it is perfectly natural that the hon. and learned Gentleman should wish to have a full statement showing exactly what has been expended for compensation. I imagine it will be impossible to give the figures accurately at the present time, because they have not been wholly ascertained, but if a general statement will satisfy the hon. and learned Gentleman's wish, I can tell him now roughly from memory what the amounts are. They are as follows: £3,000,000 as a free grant under the terms of peace; £2,000,000 additional for British subjects; £2,000,000 paid away for military receipts; and about £3,000.000 paid in Cape Colony and Natal. Then for compensation under proclamations, principally the proclamation by Lord Roberts, but also proclamations by other generals promising protection, an amount will be required which is at present estimated at £5.000,000. The total, therefore, which this country is paying, under circumstances in which such payments have never been made before, in order to restore the prosperity of the countries that we have annexed, amounts to something like £15,000,000.
  SIR ROBERT REID: I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. That is very satisfactory as far as it is concerned, but I asked the right hon. Gentleman also about other outlays, for example the £1,000,000 voted this year for compensation for the constabulary.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: When we established the South African Constabulary we considered that for the purposes of police protection 6,000 men would be sufficient. While the war

  1261
  was in progress that force was used for military purposes, and Lord Roberts desired that it should be increased to 10,000 men. We, of course, agreed to that; but at the same time we made a condition that the additional expense should be treated as a military charge, and should not be charged to the colonies, but should be regarded as an Imperial charge. Accordingly, the £1,000,000 that has just been voted is in regard to so much of the expense as was due to the enlargement of the force over 6,000 men.
  SIR ROBERT REID: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman; but I also asked for information with regard to the outlay on other matters, not necessarily war expenditure, in these two colonies: for example, in supplementing the deficits in their budgets, and also for money spent in the purchase of land, the amount of which this House is not at present acquainted with. We ought to have before us an account showing the total outlay this country has incurred, irrespective of the £222,000,000 which we spent on the war; and also estimates of the revenue and expenditure of the two colonies, so that we may know our financial position in regard to them, what it is we have to spend, and the security on which we are asked to find this money.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I think I can quite understand. As regards the first point, I believe I can assure the House that no charge of any kind in addition to what I have stated will fall on this country. The £1,000,000 to which I referred was purely a military charge, but outside that there is, so far as I know at the present moment, no money to be voted or spent by this house on behalf of the people of this country for the benefit of the two colonies. Sums have been voted as grants-in-aid, but they will be repaid out of the loans; as, for instance, the amount for deficits in the earlier budgets of the Transvaal during the war. These will be repaid out of the first loan. Then the hon. and learned Gentleman asked me, very naturally, for a statement of the financial position of the two colonies. That will be submitted before the Bill is brought before the House. But it may be very
  1262
  satisfactory to the Committee to know that every succeeding return shows that the Estimates are being enormously exceeded; and I believe I am right in saying that the surplus in the two colonies next year will exceed the whole cost of the charge for the two loans.
  *MR. KEIR HARDIE*MR. KEIR HARDIE said he desired to make a personal explanation. Speaking from memory earlier in the evening, he stated that the right hon. Gentleman had refused to receive a deputation representing organised labour in South Africa. He had since had an opportunity of ascertaining the facts. The following extract appeared in the Johannesburg Tribune—
  "Our readers will remember the mass meeting that was held in the Market Square, on 20th November last, to deal with the situation created through the invalidation by a Supreme Court verdict of the Kruger Rent Proclamations. Motions were carried that the Secretary for the Colonies should be memorialised, and that a petition should be presented to him asking for relief, an influential Committee being formed to carry out the intention of the meeting. The Committee subsequently requested Mr. Chamberlain to receive a deputation in the matter delegated to them by the citizens. It will be learnt with indignation that Mr. Chamberlain has refused to meet the deputation. The landlords and mortgagees are amongst those to banquet Mr. Chamberlain on Saturday."
  He now wished to ask whether that deputation was refused a hearing; and, if so, on what grounds?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: This is a totally different charge to the one made by the hon. Member in the first instance. He then said I refused to receive a deputation from working class representative organisations—the Miners' Association and the Trades Council. I told the hon. Member in reply that I had received a deputation from both these bodies; and that several complaints were brought to my notice by these deputations, and dealt with at the time. Now the hon. Member says that the deputation which I am reported to have refused to receive was a deputation from a mass meeting. I have hid a large experience of mass meetings; and this particular meeting would undoubtedly not have been a successful demonstration in Hyde Park. It had nothing to do with the working classes; and it dealt with a particular class of property owners who complained

  1263
  of some regulation or ordinance made by the local government. I do not recollect any application to me to receive a deputation; I do not recollect having refused to receive one; but if I did, it was probably entirely on account of the fact that my time was so fully occupied that; it was absolutely impossible for me to receive everyone who desired to see me.
  MR. J. H. WHITLEYsaid he deeply regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had not been able to say anything to relieve the uneasy feeling that undoubtedly prevailed very widely in this country that something in the nature of compulsory labour was taking place in the new colonies. He would try and lay before the right hon. Gentleman the grounds on which this uneasy feeling, which undoubtedly existed, was based. He had hoped that in the very first word which the right hon. Gentleman would address to the House after his tour, he would have been able to give an assurance that under the British flag no compulsory labour, direct or indirect, would ever be permitted; and he hoped that the time would not be far distant when the right hon. Gentleman would give that assurance. In reply to a Question yesterday the right hon. Gentleman appeared to be plainly contemplating an increase in the taxation of the natives. The uneasy feeling to which he referred, and which he thought had a great deal to do with the great revulsion of feeling in connection with the war, was due to people asking this question—"What did we fight that war for? Certainly not to get cheap labour for the mine-owners." He could tell the light hon. Gentleman that that question was being asked all over the country. It was based, perhaps, not on facts which could as yet be regarded as certainties, but they wished the suspicion to be removed from their minds by the right hon. Gentleman.
  He would give three instances of what it was that had given rise to this uneasy feeling. In the first place, the moment the war was over the mine-owners reduced the wages of the natives from 60s. per month to 35s. That was the very first change made in the policy of the mine-owners, when the sufferings of the British
  1264
  troops and the money that had been expended had won a hard-earned victory. That fact arrested attention. The second piece of evidence was the undoubted pressure which had come from the mine-owners for many months past in order, as they had put it, to compel the native to recognise the dignity of labour. That was a doctrine in which he firmly believed, but he thought if the Government were going to uphold the doctrine they would do well to commence at home rather than in the colonies. With the permission of the Committee he would quote what the Transvaal Leader had to say upon this subject. This was how they regarded the native question—
  "There is one way and one way only to subdue the negro, and it, is with the lash. Never treat a native with more than ordinary human kindness. There is in fact no difference between the ordinary native and the baboon beyond the fact that the former can talk and the latter will not."
  Was not such an attitude alone sufficient to justify the very uneasy feeling which existed in this country that something was going on which was not to be expected would go on under the British flag? That was the attitude of one section of the people of South Africa on this subject. On one occasion it was said in this House that we were all Members for India; were we not also all Members for these colonies, and for the black races who were now our fellow-subjects? He hoped we should never come to regard the native races in such a manner as was indicated in the passage he had just quoted. The third reason for this justifiable feeling of uneasiness was the new tax which had already been placed upon the native at the instance of the mine-owners. The right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary had stated on the previous day that the taxation of the native was now lower than under the Boer régime, but he (Mr. Whitley) had evidence, which the right hon. Gentleman would not contradict, to the contrary. The Boer law of 1895 provided that there should be a poll tax of £2 a head on every native; Lord Milner's ordinance not only provided for the re-imposition of that poll tax, but for a further tax of £2, instead of 10s. for each additional wife. The right hon. Gentleman had said he did not approve of polygamy—
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Do you?
  MR. WHITLEY MR. WHITLEY said he certainly did not approve of abolishing it by means of taxation, and he did not approve of the violent interference with the customs of natives so recently subjected to our rule. That tax had been put on at the instigation of the mine-owners, apparently with the view of teaching the Kaffir, as the phrase went, to recognise the dignity of labour. That meant that it was not sufficient for the native in the location which he had been placed, when the white men had taken his country, to till the land and tend his cattle and grow sufficient food for his wife and children; he must work at a wage for the white man. He wished the Committee to bring some pressure to bear on the right hon. Gentleman to consider the labour question of South Africa from the opposite point of view. The great idea of the war was that we should make South Africa a country where the British workman could live. The white labour question was the important problem to us. The idea was not that there should be a ring of millionaires and wealthy people at the top, but that there should be a broad basis of a great white citizenship. The experiment of white labour had been tried in one mine, and the result of that experiment had been to show that the work had been carried out with white labour with such expedition that it was a record in the country, and the in creased cost, as compared with black labour, had only been about 20 percent. Upon that he had made a calculation. He had found that the dividends paid by the mines which had re-opened since the war were some 25 or 30 per cent., and as the result of his calculation he had arrived at the conclusion that the introduction of white labour in place of black would only mean a reduction of 10 per cent, in those divisions. All the black labour did was to allow of the working of the low-grade mines, and if that was the only excuse for the introduction of black labour, in his opinion it was better that these low-grade mines should not be worked.
  Another question to which he wished to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, who he regretted had been
  1266
  obliged to leave the House, was the question of the loan of £30,000,000. He had no objection to the loan of £35,000,000, but he had the greatest objection to the loan of £30,000,000, which was to be a contribution towards the cost of the war. He could not see why the mine-owners who met the right hon. Gentleman at Johannesburg should have power to pledge the total assets of these colonies as security for the loan. His objection to the transaction lay in the fact that the right hon. Gentleman had allowed a group of mine-owners to underwrite this loan, and to that extent had put them in the position of mortgagees of the assets of the Transvaal, and put them in a position to direct the future of these colonies, which, in his opinion, was most undesirable.
  The last matter to which he wished to refer was the "Conference Ring," with regard to freights in South Africa. The high rate of living in South Africa was largely due to this "ring," which controlled all the shipping of South Africa. He wished to draw the attention of the Colonial Secretary to the very serious position in which we stood with regard to British trade in this matter. He thought it was very hard that the British trader should find that, by reason of this "ring," in freights the best business should be given to Germany on the one side and the United States on the other. It had been pointed out by Mr. F. Thompson, a member of the Cape Assembly, that to business men the whole important question was the shipping one. The "Conference" lines of New York could send goods for a freight charge of 12s. a ton, while British merchants had to pay from 35s. to 40s. a ton, and that it was no use to attempt to bring goods to the Exhibition in Cape Town unless they combined to attack the shipping rates.
  He had risen at the earliest opportunity, because matters of very intense interest to a vast number of traders in this country were involved, and they were matters which were very serious indeed, as affecting the prosperity of British trade in South Africa. In one instance an order for steel rails was quoted on equal terms and at the same price by a British and an American maker, but the

  1267
  order went to America because the freight from that country was about half. From German ports he had known freights at much lower rates even in the same ship. He trusted the Colonial Office would give careful attention to this matter. The money connected with these new loans would be very largely expended upon materials shipped from this country, and the Colonial Office ought to use their influence to secure freedom of British trade, and enable British traders to have at least equal terms with their competitors in other parts of the globe. He trusted the matter would receive careful attention from the Colonial Secretary.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said he quite conceived that it would be impossible to discuss these matters properly until the Papers connected with them were laid on the Table of the House. Therefore he did not propose to enter into many of the questions. With regard to the £15,000,000 which had been paid after the war, and the amount paid for compensation to meet those claims, nobody would grudge the money. What they complained of was the occasion that had made this liability necessary, but any generosity displayed in that respect he was sure would meet with the general approval of everybody on both sides of the House. With regard to native labour he understood the Colonial Secretary to say that he had arrived at no decision upon this question. That might be due to the imperfect reporting of his speeches, but certainly an impression had been caused by speeches delivered in Johannesburg that the right hon. Gentleman had arrived at a decision, and that he had made a declaration in favour of forcing the natives by taxation to work in the mines. If the right hon. Gentleman was in favour of that policy it was desirable that it should be known. He understood that this was regarded more as a tax for the repression of polygamy, but it was really a tax encouraging polygamy. What happened at the mines? The natives went to the mines, earned a lot of money, and then they went home and bought wives. What was the process? The Colonial Secretary
  1268
  proposed to repress polygamy. He first imposed a tax to drive the natives to the mines, and then they earned a lot of money and bought wives with it. So far from being a tax for suppressing polygamy, it promoted it. It was not the polygamist that would be driven to the mines, for he would remain at home with his twenty or thirty wives, who would probably work for him, and possibly pay the tax as well. It was only the bachelor that they would drive into the mines, and this was simply using an argument for putting upon a false basis the whole problem of the taxing of labour in South Africa.
  The real object of all this was to get cheap labour in South Africa under market prices. The hon. Member for Manchester represented the views of those who were in close contact with capital in South Africa, and he said that there were only 400,000 natives available for this class of work in South Africa. His own reckoning was that the total was 500,000, but he would take it at 400,000. Before the war there were 150,000 natives employed in the mines. Really that was not an unfair proportion of the population available for working in the mines, and it amounted to about 30 per cent. That was as large as the proportion in this country. Why should they have special legislation for the purpose, not of enforcing labour but of compelling British subjects to work in a special class of labour in which they did not want to work? This was not the kind of work which attracted a native in sunny climates. Here they were forcing him to work underground at the most unattractive form of labour, even for a Kaffir. The result was that the Basuto, who was the finest type of native in South Africa, would not work in the mines. Why should they compel them to do this? The proportion of those working in the mines was given as 150,000 out of 400,000, but what about the natives working in Cape Town, Durban, in the docks, and employed in all classes of labour around the towns, and on all the farms as shepherds? Surely that was quite as important to the development of the country as working in mines.

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  Those who defended this system would probably say they were not forcing them to work anywhere. He wished to point out, however, that a tax meant that they were forcing them to work in the mines, because they were not paid in cash for working on farms, but were paid in kind, or perhaps got a plot of land. Why should they force them to work in labour which was not healthy? Anyone who looked at the statistics of the deaths due to natural causes in mines knew how horrible the class of labour was for the Kaffirs. There was no class of labour in this country that caused so many deaths as this labour, which was forced upon the Kaffir in the Transvaal. These natives were not old men, but men in the prime of their strength, and still the number of deaths amongst them was appalling, because it was a kind of labour that did not suit the Kaffir constitution. It was not as if they worked for ten or fifteen years, but it meant that in the course of a year or two this labour was so unsuitable to the Kaffir that he broke completely down. It was an act of unheard-of oppression that they should force the natives to work in these mines. Why should they do it? In the mines in America white labour was employed. If they took Australia, it was also white labour, and he should like to see the House of Commons try to force black labour upon the mines in Australia. He knew what would happen if they did.
  Since the days of the Spanish Empire in South America nothing of this kind had been known, and that undermined the strength of the Spanish Empire at home. The reason for this was that they were obtaining wealth by oppressive means, and they would deserve to be punished for it in the end. Before the war there were about 110,000 people working in the mines around Johannes burg, and they were paid at the rate of £3 10s. per month. That was not an unfair proportion considering the number of people available. After the war the total was 57,000, and why? Because the rate of wages had been put down to 1s. per day. A very remarkable letter had just appeared in the Press from the rector of Thaban-Chu in which it was stated that the natives
  1270
  were being forced to work on Government works, and the natives were complaining. They stated that they were perfectly loyal during the war, and they were most helpful to our troops, and he believed himself that but for the assistance of the natives he did not think hey would have brought the war to a conclusion at all. The natives complained that now the war was over this country was using her power to force hem to work like slaves upon Government works and in the mines around Johannesburg. The rector of Thaban-Chu stated that if they would treat the natives kindly they would readily respond, and there was no difficulty in keeping them to their agreements. Why should the natives not be treated fairly, and allowed to go with their labour to the best market, like anybody else? The mere fact that they were black men ought to compel us to treat them with generosity. What would be the value of sending missionaries to South Africa in the face of the practical working of this Christian Empire? If it was desired to give these people an exalted idea of Christian morality, let justice, first of all, be done to them. The mines ought to be closed unless they could keep open without a system of slavery. In Wales there were no end of mines—coal, slate, copper, and gold mines—closed because of the heavy cost of labour. If Chinese or Indian labour was to be imported, or if the natives were to be forced to work for a shilling a day in order that the South African mines might be kept open, why should it not be done for the gold mines in Wales? There was no reason why the mines should be kept open unless they paid the fair market wage. It was too expensive for the Empire to keep them open, because it was being done at the cost not only of the £250,000,000 spent on the war, but also of perpetrating an act of injustice such as no Empire could survive. The reason had been given that it was to keep the British connection. British connection! Who were the Britishers for whom the name of the Empire was being soiled with this infamy? Who were the British patriots that had underwritten the debt of £10,000,000? Among the names were Werner Beit, Barnato, Hyams, and

  1271
  Goerz, while the remainder was bought up by a gentleman named Moses. In the whole list there was only one Britisher, who, it needed scarcely to be said, was a Scotchman. No other race could survive such environment. He rather thought that in the meeting between the two cities of Birmingham and Jerusalem the latter had got the better of the bargain.
  A real sense of uneasiness existed on this question of native labour, and the Committee were entitled to ask for information as to what was happening. The notion that the Boers were oppressing the natives had more than anything else to do with the popularity of the war and the determination of the British people to put an end to the Transvaal Government. Would there have been that determination had it been known that we were going to set up a worse system of forced labour? The war was entered upon, £250,000,000 had been spent, and thousands of precious lives forfeited, largely for the purpose of emancipating the natives, and the country ought to insist on the undertaking given and sealed by the blood of our soldiers being carried out.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the I discussion has gone far enough to justify me in getting up in answer to the appeals which have been addressed to me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for; East Fife and others. The right hon. Gentleman said he would like to hear something as to the progress which is being made towards the establishment of those representative institutions which we have always regarded as the ultimate goal of our operations in South Africa. I need not say that the opinion and the policy of the Government have not changed in the slightest degree in respect to this matter. We are anxious, as I took occasion to say in public several times in the course of my visit, to be relieved as soon as possible of the responsibility which Crown colony government entails, and to give the new: colonies the same institutions as are enjoyed by other self-governing colonies. Up to the present time we have taken only one step in that direction, which indeed is the usual first step in the
  1272
  progress of a colony from the strictest form of Crown colony government to free institutions.
  We have, in the first place, now established elective municipalities. I do not think the election has actually taken place, but we have proposed elective municipalities for Johannes burg, Pretoria, and other places, which will give fully representative municipal government. In addition, we have established a semi-representative Legislative Council in the Orange River Colony; that is to say, we have established a Legislative Council in which, in addition to the official members, a minority of members have been nominated by the Government, having been selected by the Government as representing in the best possible way the different interests in the colony. As far as I know, I believe the work of the Council has given satisfaction.
  We propose to follow that up by calling together in the present month, or, at the latest, in April, a Legislative Council for the Transvaal. There also, in the first instance, we shall retain a majority of nominated members, but the representative element will represent every class and section. There will be representatives, of course, of the great industry of the Transvaal, of the shop-keeping element, of the farming element, of the old Boer element, of the new Boer element—that is, of the Boers who early surrendered, or who supported the Government in their endeavours—and of the working classes; in fact, we shall endeavour, as far as is humanly possible, to secure what will really be a representative minority. It is the intention of the Transvaal Government to bring various important questions before this body, and not to use the Government majority except in cases in which Imperial or other similar interests are concerned. That is the first step. According to the original view of the Government, and my present view, that should be followed, I hope at no distant date, by substituting elected for nominated representatives, but still maintaining the Government majority.
  Then the third and last step will be the concession of full self-government That is the process through which the Cape

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  Colony, Natal, and all the self governing colonies have proceeded to their present position, and, in my judgment, there is much to be said for observing it in the case of the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony. In regard to; that there is one point I should like very much to impress upon the House, and that is the decision of the Boer Generals not to take part in the Legislative Council. I have had the most intimate intercourse with General Delarey, close to his own residence, where he received me most hospitably, and where, I hope, we established a friendship which may probably last; and on that occasion I asked the general to serve as a representative on the Council. After some little protest on his part, he agreed to do so. He did I not, at that time, raise the objections which were subsequently raised, but he expressed the opinion that he could better assist the Government in his own way among his own people rather than by absenting himself from them for considerable periods in order to attend to legislative work at Pretoria. I suppose that after he reached Pretoria he consalted with the other two generals—General Botha and General Smuts—and that they persuaded him to withdraw his assent. I only mention his previous agreement to show the spirit in which he, at all events, is prepared to meet the situation. He assured me then—and I have not the slightest doubt whatever as to the sincerity of his; assurance—that he was perfectly ready to co-operate with the Government in every possible way. The generals addressed to Lord Milner a lette which, no doubt, is within the knowledge of the House. I have seen attempts to go behind the letter, and to impute to the generals other reasons for their refusal. That seems to me to be most insulting to the generals themselves. At all events, I have no reason to believe that they had any arrière pensée in the form of the document they presented. What they said was—and I think they are wiser than some of those Liberals who are so anxious at any moment to impose self-government on colonial possessions—that in their opinion the country was not ready for self-government. What they needed above all was
  1274
  rest from agitation, and at present they preferred to trust to the action and to the responsibility of the Government rather than to throw into discussion all the difficult and complex questions which might arise.
  I often think that people talk about self-government without remembering exactly what it means. People talk about self-government as if it meant the government of the individual who is talking by himself, but it is nothing of the kind. Self-government is the government of the majority, and a majority even of one is able, under a system of self-government, to impose its will, however tyrannical and unreasonable it may be, upon the minority, and nobody may say them nay. Crown colony government is not, as generally supposed, the arbitrary government of an outside authority. It is rather a government which, while it directs its proceedings in accordance with the general wishes, so far as they can be ascertained, of the majority, also considers it one of its first duties to protect the minority against a majority which may be unreasonable, and it is on that ground that Crown colony government can be, and is, defended in all the cases in which it now exists, and it is upon that ground that the Boer generals represent, as far as they were concerned, that they would prefer to see the continuance of Crown colony government for the present rather than an immediate resort to self-government.
  Great importance seems to be attached to their view, that in the interests of the two colonies it is desirable that a certain time, not a long time in the history of a nation, but still a certain time, should elapse before full self-government is accorded. Whether a long time will elapse I really cannot say. One thing is clear—if the population of the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony, both Boer and Briton,, by a large majority desire this self-government, even although it might seem to us to be premature, I should think it unwise to refuse it. I do not myself believe there is any such danger connected with Imperial interests that we should hesitate to accord it on that ground. The ground on which I should desire that it might be delayed is really the interest

  1275
  of the two colonies themselves, and not any Imperial interest. I believe that the temporary influence of the Crown colony system is desirable, at all events for some years to come, in the interests of the two colonies.
  I think that gives to the House information as to what has been done, and also information, for what it is worth, as to what I think ought to be done. But there is one point to which I wish to call the attention of the House in connection with the other matter to which attention has been directed. When you have given this self-government to the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony, what use will it be for you to protest against their native policy, whatever it may be? I confess that I regret the discussion which has taken place, because I believe it is mischievous, because I am certain it is ill-informed, and because I think it is calculated to produce the very evils which those who have introduced it deprecated. What does this discussion imply? It implies that our fellow-subjects in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colonies, and the members of a self-governing colony, are unworthy of their name of Britons, are anxious for violent methods, are ready to introduce forced labour—slavery—and to do this with the meanest motives and the most sordid personal objects. I say that this charge—and I say it now when I am fresh from my recent experience—is resented, and deeply resented, by our kinsmen across the water, and that it does infinite harm by the sense it produces of injustice and unreasonableness, and the display of cheap philanthropy at their expense. All this goes far to separate our own people from us and to provoke in them an antagonistic feeling which, as I say, may lead to the very results which you desire to avoid.
  Now for all the charges which have been made in fairly moderate language by other Members, and in his usual violent style by the hon. Member for Carnarvon, there is not the slightest foundation. There is at the present time no demand by any person of any responsibility or authority for forced labour in any shape or form. As for slavery, the idea does not enter into the mind of any British subject out there. The condition of the native at the present time in the
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  Transvaal is better than it was before the war. All the promises we have made have been fulfilled in that respect. But there is one thing I am bound to say in justice to our late foes. I was led, as probably the majority in this House were led, by statements which were made, to think and to believe that the treatment of the native by the Boer was very bad, and in that belief we expressed the hope that when we came we should be able to improve it. Now the war itself is evidence that this charge against the Boers was exaggerated. I freely make that admission. If it had not been exaggerated, it is impossible to believe that the Boers could, as I know they did in hundreds and thousands of cases, leave their wives and children and property and stock to their charge, and in the care of a few natives they had had previously on their farms. Very few outrages took place, and undoubtedly in many cases the natives gave assistance to the Boers during the war just as in many other cases they gave assistance to us. And, therefore, although the conception of the native by the Boer is something totally different to the conception which has been put before the House in the course of the present debate, and represents, no doubt, the British idea of the relations between the races, yet of real brutality, violent misconduct, or ill-treatment, I think that in the majority of cases at any rate they must be absolved. The relation between the two races is quite different from that put forward. They repudiate entirely any idea of equality. They regard the native as little better than an animal, and certainly in no case as deserving of different treatment from what would be given to a child. They do not hesitate to apply corporal punishment for very slight offences, and in other respects they act in a way which would undoubtedly be reprobated in a British subject. But they seem somehow or other to have understood the native character. They have not been regarded on the whole as hard or severe masters by the natives, and and no ill-feeling has ever sprung up between them.
  In spite of that, the position of the natives is better under the present Government than it was under the last. In many ways they have been relieved, and especially they have been relieved in the matter of taxation.

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  I do not know where hon. Members get their information from, but, at all events, it differs altogether from that which is in my possession. The taxation under the late Government was as follows—hut tax 10s., poll tax £2, road tax 2s. 6d., dog tax 10s., making £3 2s. 6d. In addition passes were charged 2s. per month, which amounted to another 24s. a year, the total taxation payable by the native thus being £4 6s. 6d. I do not mean to say there were not some exceptions, but that represents the general condition of taxation. We have substituted for that one consolidated tax amounting to £2, in lieu of all the taxes hitherto imposed upon the natives. But if the native has more than one wife he has to pay a further tax of £2 for each additional wife. Some hon. Gentleman said that this legislation is at the dictation of the mine-owners. That is absolutely without a scrap of foundation. As far as I know the mine-owners had nothing whatever to say to it from beginning to end. [An HON. MEMBER: "They asked for it."] They did not ask for it; I deny it. They did not ask for that particular tax. I suppose what the hon. Gentleman has in his mind is that they are asking for more taxes now. That is a different thing. This legislation is independent of any influence on the part of the mine-owners. This particular taxation is against polygamy, over which practice the hon. Member for Halifax appears to be inclined to throw his shield. Tins taxation is suggested by a leading missionary, and to my mind there is an immense deal to say for it. I do not say the practice of polygamy is one which the Government should encourage. On the contrary, I think it is one we should, as far as possible, endeavour to discourage. But the practice of polygamy is very closely connected with the labour question, as I have pointed out when I was in South Africa, because the wife does the outdoor labour for the husband. The husbandry of the native on the land is carried out by means of the wives he possesses. Therefore, in addition to the comfort and companionship and womanly solace which numerous wives may give the men, there is also the important consideration of the addition to the reduction in his labour bill. As regards the question of taxation. I really cannot understand the line of argument of
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  some gentlemen who have said that if you put a tax upon the native it is a mere sham for you to say that that is not forced labour.
  Sir, we are all taxed. Are we the subjects of the condolences and commiseration of hon. Gentlemen? We are all of us taxed, and taxed heavily. Is that a system of forced labour, against which hon. Members think it necessary to protest 1 No; the sham is in the argument which these gentlemen adduce. Of course, if you can show that the taxation is unfair on its merits, or excessive in its amount, let that by all means be made the subject for consideration, but to say that because we put a tax on a native, therefore he is reduced to a condition of servitude and of forced labour is, to my mind, absolutely ridiculous. I have said, in answer to a question, that, in my opinion, he is nowhere overtaxed, and in some places immensely undertaxed, having regard to the advantages brought to him by the British Government. What are those advantages? What is the position of these native races now, and what was their position before we undertook the responsibility for them? No Zulu under Cetewayo, or under Umtali, or, indeed, under any great Zulu chief, could call his life his own. No Zulu could hold property except by the permission and goodwill of his chief. Every man was liable to be wiped out, and whole tribes of them were decimated under the tyranny which prevailed. From what do we protect them? From the consequences of internecine warfare, from slavery in its direct and worst form, from the slave-trade. From all these evils we are protecting the native: and it is perfectly fair, to my mind, that he should contribute something towards the cost of administering the country. It is ridiculous to say that any charge which has hitherto been made on the native represents more than a very slight contribution in the way of personal labour. Many do not require to give personal labour at all. When they enjoy a large family of wives they do not require to give personal labour. The whole of the tax can be earned by a few weeks' of moderate labour. In these circumstances I do not think they are

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  deserving of the pity and consideration which have been extended to them.
  Now, Sir, hitherto I have spoken generally as to the principles which must regulate the question of native labour everywhere and in every colony. Here it is complicated by the connection of the subject with the great industry of the country; and, unfortunately, some hon. Gentlemen opposite have somehow or other contracted such a prejudice against this particular industry and the persons engaged in it that they seem disinclined to hear anything whatever in its favour whenever it comes in question. I have pointed out before to the House of Commons that, if that prejudice is caused by envy and jealousy of the large fortunes which have been made, it should be borne in mind that these fortunes have not been made, as a rule, by the direct working of the gold mines, but by speculation, which is open to, and I believe sometimes engaged in, by persons who are not mining magnates. Gold-mining is just as much a legitimate industry as the coal industry in this country. It is wholly a question of the cost of getting material, and the price it will fetch in the market. [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!] Yes, but I have to put these rather simple truths before the House, because I have to make my way clear. Incidentally I am answering some of the statements made in the course of the discussion It is a very simple question: What rate of wages can be paid in order that this industry should be self-supporting and prosperous? Before I discuss that, however, let me remind the House what hangs upon this industry. It is the great industry of the Transvaal. The prosperity of the Transvaal, at all events for many years to come, will entirely depend upon it. It does not affect the British population alone; it affects still more largely, perhaps, the Boer population and the agricultural population. The prosperity of the agricultural population will depend upon the extent to which they can find markets for their produce in the towns. Our whole policy in South Africa, its success or its failure, is enormously hound up with the success or failure of the legitimate gold-mining industry. It is, therefore, our object and interest
  1280
  that the mines, not only the wealthy mines where gold is found in comparatively large quantities and where a profit can be easily made—not only that those mines should be profitably worked, but that the low-grade ores should also be profitably worked; and it is the contention of the mine-owners that they cannot be profitably worked if any addition, however slight, is put on the cost of working; that the margin is so small that it will only allow them to employ the smallest amount of white labour; in fact, that no addition to the cost of working can safely be made. On whose authority is that statement made? After all, it seems to be the opinion of some people that these statements are rashly made for their own personal interest by those who are described as mining magnates. That is not the case at all. These statements are made by the mining engineers, who are not, as a rule, millionaires, but men of great capacity and great experience. The majority of them are Americans, who have been accustomed in their own country to working, with white labour, various grades of ore; and it is on the authority of these men that those statements are made. Their statement is that, although you may slightly increase the proportion of white labour, you cannot depend upon white labour-Wherever the work is purely muscular—and a great deal of the labour is purely muscular—the native is as good as the white man, and the white man cannot possibly do the same work at anything like the same rate of pay as the Kaffir can. I accept these statements from people who are much more competent than I am myself. I have had to inform myself on the subject and to hear the different views expressed. One engineer, and one only—he is in a minority of one—is more sanguine than his colleagues as to the possibility of greatly increasing the proportion of white labour; but at present the experiment he has tried, with the full authority of the mine owners, is still in the trial stage, and it is too early to say whether it will be a success. In tire meantime it is perfectly evident that it the mines are to be worked as they have been hitherto, it is necessary that something like 100,000 additional native or

  1281
  other cheap labourers must be found. Let me allude in passing to the observation of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Merthyr Tydvil. He said that white labour might be introduced instead of Kaffir labour, and then he said that those who were interested in the mines were scouring Europe for cheap white labour. One of the deputations, which the hon. Member thought I had not received, came to me with a complaint on that same point; and undoubtedly those men who are paid high wages in South Africa are opposed to the introduction even of white labour. Therefore the mine-owners are reduced to this, that their choice is confined to Kaffir labour at 50s. or 60s. a month, or skilled white labour now worth £30 a month; and the House will see that, as long as that enormous margin remains it is clearly impossible that the mines which can be worked profitably with cheap labour can equally well be worked profitably with the higher-priced labour. First of all, before the war the mines had 100,000 Kaffirs working in them. At the present time they have only about 50,000, although since I left I believe that number has considerably increased. This falling off was due to many causes. In the first place, it is, I think, justly attributed to the face that the mine-owners attempted a reduction of the wages. I do not know that the Committee are aware that they all recognise that that was a mistake, and they have now gone back to the original rate of wages. It was undoubtedly a hasty action on their part, and was not calculated to secure the large amount of additional labour they required. But the mistake has been corrected, and now the wages are practically the same as they were before the war. That no doubt in some way accounts for the reduction of the number.
  But in addition to that, there has arisen since the war a very large demand for Kaffir labour for other purposes—for railways, for building operations, and even for agricultural operations; and it is the belief of those who are well informed on moment there are as many Kaffirs actually labouring in South Africa as there were before the war, although a much smaller proportion of them are employed in the mines. I believe that larger numbers
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  can be obtained even now from the old source of supply; and I would venture to urge on the mine-owners that more might be done to make the work more attractive, and especially to make the time of recreation more enjoyable. I visited the mines at Kimberley, and there I found a state of things existing very much in advance of anything on the Rand. There the mine-owners constantly employ 12,000 labourers, and they have no difficulty whatever in obtaining a sufficient supply of labourers. The natives come from very great distances, and come voluntarily to take up the work. That is entirely due to the care and attention given to them while in the compounds, and to the efforts made to make their life happier and more agreeable. I think, therefore, that if more attention is given on the Rand, if more efforts are made to make labour attractive, we may expect to get a larger proportion of labourers from the existing source of supply.
  Then, turning to other districts north of the Zambesi, I quite agree with my right hon. friend the Member for the University of Cambridge that we have to be careful in any matter of this kind; and there can be no possible objection to laying on the Table of the House the regulations which have been framed. As I have said, it is proposed now to put 1,000 natives of Central Africa in the mines, and if they appreciate the life there, no doubt a much larger number will hereafter go there. The railway of which an hon. Gentleman opposite spoke has not been commenced, and will not be commenced for some time; but it does not at present affect the question at all. And let me point out that it is a very unfair thing to say to the labourers in a particular colony or protectorate, "You shall not go, whether you like it or not, where your labour will be best remunerated." The feeling of anxiety to prevent labourers going from the Central African or East African Protectorates is the feeling of the people on the spot, who are now getting the labour of these men for a quarter or a fifth of what the mines are willing to pay, because when they return they will demand larger wages from their former employers than are now paid in these protectorates. I think it would be wrong to lay down any general policy and to declare that the native

  1283
  labourer is practically to be adscriptus glebœ; that he must not more from his own protectorate even if higher wages are offered to him elsewhere.
  I believe that from these various sources very considerable additions will be made to the ranks of labour, and that without anything in the nature of either forced labour or compulsion in any shape or form. Whether it will be sufficient, I must leave it to the future to decide; but I say it is premature to discuss that question now. I saw that there was considerable feeling expressed at the proposal said to have been made to me for the introduction of Asiatic or Chinese labour. Let me say, in the first place, that no such proposal was made or, as far as I know, is likely to be made. Every one concerned in the matter, even those who take the most pessimistic view of the future, is agreed that every other possible source of supply must be exhausted before the introduction of Asiatic or Chinese labour is even thought of. At the present moment, as every one knows, colonial feeling throughout South Africa is, by a very large majority against any such proposal. Why, then, should the House of Commons intervene to beat itself against an open door, and to teach our colonists what they ought to do, to interfere with the rights which we have conceded to the self-governing communities? It is against that that I protest, as being bad policy on the part of the House of Commons. As I have pointed out, if it had ever come to pass that a self-governing colony like the Cape or Natal should desire the importation of persons from any part of the world outside the British terrilories, there is no power or authority or right on our part to prevent it. And if that is so, is it dignified to be making protests especially when those protests are entirely premature? I have said as much as I need to say at the present moment and I hope I have convinced the House that if there has been in the minds any hon. Members any such anxiety as has been alleged with regard to the new regulations, or interference with the liberty of the natives, which would constitute forced labour, I hope I have been able entirely to remove that anxiety. I say again there is no shadow of a shade of foundation for it.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had lot convinced him, and he did not think he had convinced many hon. Members, n that side of the House, that there was no intention to force the natives to labour in the mines in South Africa, by imposing on them a heavy tax. The right hon. Gentleman very fairly stated he arguments used by the mine owners in South Africa. The truth was there were certain high-grade mines which paid very well; but there were other nines of low-grade which could only pay by very cheap labour; and the only way in which those mines could be worked was to impose a heavy tax on the natives, who would then have to leave their homes and earn money; and the only place that would be open to them would be the mines. The light hon. Gentleman did not tell the Committee that the reason why the wages had been reduced was to prevent the natives working for a time, and accumulating a sum of money. Fancy such a doctrine being enunciated in any part of England! What was it but forced labour? It was the plainest thing in the world; and he thought the country was beginning to perceive it. The natives were to be taxed with the deliberate intention of obliging them to work in order to pay the tax; that was to all intents and purposes forced labour. The right hon. Gentleman alluded again to what he might call "the wife argument." He seemed to be particularly enamoured of it. It was first used in defence of the tax upon Kaffirs in South Africa. The right hon. Gentleman said that by making the Kaffirs work in the mines, they would be practically doing away with slavery; bf cause otherwise they bought wives and forced them to work for them. That was quite a mistake. Had the right hon. Gentleman been in any of the kraals in which the natives lived? It was quite a mistake to suppose that the Kaffirs forced their wives to work. He himself was not in favour of polygamy; and he did not suppose any hon. Member was; but he was rather surprised that the missionaries should complain of it, seeing that many of the patriarchs had a great many wives. What happened was this. The native law with regard to marriage was in-

  1285
  finitely better and safer for women than the law in this country. When a Kaffir wanted to marry a wife, he handed over a certain number of cattle to one of her friends. Those cattle were regarded as belonging to the wife; and if the woman was maltreated she might go to her representative., and if it were proved under native law that the Kaffir had ill treated her, then he was fined one or more head of cattle; and if the ill treatment continued the wife might withdraw to her family and take possession of all the cattle. He believed it would be much better for many unfortunate women if there was such a law in this country. He only referred to the matter to show that it was a perfect mistake to suppose that the women were in any sort of way slaves; a Kaffir himself did not care about the dignity of labour; he looked after the cattle, and the women did the hoeing in the little plot round the house.
  It was stated on the best authority that as a rule Kaffir women were not ill-treated by their husbands they were proud of working in the little plots; and in fact acted as good, respectable wives. The tight hon. Gentleman and his friends in South Africa seemed to have adopted the system, of which they had read in the Scriptures, of a man working seven years for a wife. They were using the wives of the Kaffirs to attract labour to the mines. He did not understand why the Kaffirs should not be left alone in their villages. Was the theory of the dignity of labour to be applied in this country? Were landowners to be compelled to work on their own land? Were those who toiled not, neither did they spin, to be told that they must practise the dignity of labour? Let them apply those laws in England if they were to be applied in the Transvaal. What was their object? It was to get cheap labour for the mines, and to prevent English labourers from going out to South Africa and selling their labour. In every part of the world employers of labour would be glad to have cheap labour. In this country the coal owners might make a very good case for importing Chinese and African labour. They could point to the competition of foreign countries, and say
  1286
  that if they had Chinese or African labour they would be able to export coal in very much larger quantities. But what reception would such a proposal receive in this country. What would the working men of this country say if such a proposal were made? That it was a bad system to allow money to accumulate in the hands of a poor man because he might get proud and haughty? No doubt there were a great many seams of coal in England which could be perfectly well worked if native labour could be imported.
  The right hon. Gentleman spoke of a number of American engineers whom he met, and whom he described as independent men. They were very as independent independent indeed! They were in the pay of the mine-owners. Why did not the right hon. Gentleman task them what they did in their own country? Was not public opinion in America determined not to allow the importation of Chinese labour 1 Where they had low-grade mines in America they worked them by machinery purchased at great cost; hut in Africa, where labour was to be had for almost nothing, it was cheaper to employ it than to expend capital in machinery. It was the old old story in favour of slave labour. In this country they had been endeavouring to raise the status of the working man; and he could not understand that what was right and proper here should not also be right and proper in the Transvaal. The right hon. Gentleman said that the whole future of the Transvaal depended upon cheap labour. He said, perish the Transvaal and all its mines rather than they should allow such a step to be taken as one as they were responsible. Cape Jolony, Natal, and Canada had their own laws with reference to labour. This country was not responsible for that; but as long as the Transvaal remained a Crown Colony it would be responsible. Forced labour was thrown upon these people by a mode of taxation for raising the revenue. The right hon Gentleman had said, as to getting more labour from other parts of South Africa, that the blacks preferred to work above rather than underground, and that so many had been taken for the purposes of navvying and other work that it was

  1287
  hopeless to expect there would be enough for the requirements of the mines. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman had approved of their ransacking the whole of Africa to get men to work in the mines, and he had allowed as an experiment 1,000 men to be imported into South Africa from Nyassaland. These poor people had no one to protect them. In Uganda and other places where they were more civilised they had protection, and in those places, when any suggestion was made of taking men to South: Africa, loud protests had been made against their being dragged away from their homes. Did anyone suppose when these poor creatures were asked to sign a contract that they knew anything about it? What happened was this. The person who wanted to get the 1,000 men was a speculator, like the slave merchant of old. He obtained the men, to sell them down South, in the same way as was done before slavery was abolished in America; and as wag frequently done in South Africa under the Boer régime, when gangs of blacks were taken down by a man who put them up to auction to the mine owners The chief from whom they were hired would get a certain sum, and these unfortunate people would know it would go hard with them if they did not obey their chief; they would go down and be shipped away, and the same thing would happen to them as happened to negroes shipped to South America in the past. The same arguments as to the blessings of civilisation which they would receive were used in that case, but at the bottom of both arguments lay the same fact, that the capitalists wanted themselves to regulate the wages and make them as small as possible because, obviously, the lower the wages the greater the profits they would receive.
  In support of forced black labour the report of the Commission on Mines in Johannesburg urged that if English miners came out they would bring their obnoxious trade union views with them. But were we to abjure the doctrine of trade unionism? The great point urged in favour of forced labour was that the English miners would get higher wages and that their trades unions would see that they did get them. These poor creatures would be forced to
  1288
  work in the first place, and, in the second, would be compelled to work at wages which the capitalist would fix. He much regretted the attitude taken by the right hon. Gentleman on this matter. A Conservative friend of his who had gone down to the recent election at Rye, and who had been speaking to him about the election, in answer to his inquiry as to how such a result had happened, said that it was owing to the attitude of the villagers, who were indignant at the idea that the present Government were; forcing blacks to work. He admitted that their action was not entirely governed by the abstract morality of that matter, because one gentleman had complained that they were earning 12s. or 14s. a week, and that they had been told that if they went out to South; Africa they could make £20 or £30 a week, but they were unable to do so because the British Government were allowing slavery in that country. He had not alluded to that election for mere; electioneering purposes, he took a much higher ground, that they ought not to abrogate their noblest traditions. There was nothing of which they ought to be more proud than their action on the question of slavery. It was they who put an end to the slave trade, but they were now I going back on their noblest traditions, and, for the benefit of a miserable set of cosmopolitan adventurers, were allowing slavery in a country which they had annexed and which was now a Crown Colony.
  *SIR JOHN LENGcompared the state of affairs in South Africa with that of the State of Nevada twenty or thirty years ago, when the silver mines were highly productive, and were yielding large returns, and thereby contributing to the wealth of the world. There was no scarcity of white labour there, because the mine owners, making large profits for themselves, did not grudge adequate wages to their workpeople. The mine owners there might have resorted to three sources of supply for cheap labour, the negroes in the South, the Aborigines in the reservations, and the Chinese in San Francisco. To their credit it must be said they resorted to none of them, and, although they wielded great influence in the Congress and the

  1289
  Senate, they made no efforts to induce forced labour, but paid such wages as insured a sufficient supply of white labour for the mines. Such views might well be taken into consideration in South Africa. Everybody knew of the enormous wealth the mines produced, and a sufficient rate of wages ought to be paid to procure white labour there. He was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that the mine owners did not desire to import the yellow peril into South Africa. He trusted there would be a continuance of this state of feeling on the subject, and he also hoped that the people of this country would adopt only one note and tone on this question, namely, that those who were extracting so much of the mineral wealth of South Africa should not desire merely to pay large dividends to shareholders in this country, but also that they should satisfy the claims of the miners who aided in procuring it. If this were done he believed this question of forced labour would entirely disappear, and it should disappear, because of the moral feeling of the whole of the sensible people in this country that they were not to enrich themselves, or allow other people to enrich themselves, at the expense of any labour, whether it be white, yellow, or black.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTSsaid the Colonial Secretary had avoided giving the assurance which had been sought from that side of the House. They quite recognised that the lower-grade gold mines could not be worked without native labour, and they agreed that it was right to tax the natives for the benefits they enjoyed. It was true that they submitted to taxation in this country, but it was not imposed for the purpose of driving them to any employment to which they did not wish to go. What they believed on that side of the House, on the strength of the statements made by the capitalists themselves, was that they (the capitalists) desired to make use of taxation as an engine to compel the natives to go into the mines, and the assurance they desired to have from the Colonial Secretary was that he did not agree to that proposal, nor was disposed to entertain the principle that taxation should be
  1290
  exacted from the natives with a view of using it as an engine to force them into the mines. If the tax was only intended to compel the natives to contribute their portion towards the cost of Government, why was there all this anxiety on the part of mine owners? Why did they talk about the polygamist native? Did the right hon. Gentleman ask them to believe that there was no attempt or design on the part of mine owners to use taxation as a means of driving the natives into the mines? If the right hon. Gentleman said there was no such design, and that he would not countenance such a thing, then they would be satisfied. But short of giving them that assurance the right hon. Gentleman was simply evading the question when he talked about the necessity for taxation. They were aware that the natives were taxed in other countries, but in no other country were they taxed with a view of forcing them into the mines, and this was what they called forced labour. The Colonial Secretary ought to give them a clear and explicit assurance on that points In reply to his hon. friend, the Colonial Secretary had declined to enter into the discussion of a private conversation he had had with the Rev. Mr. Bosman, but the right hon. Gentleman had disclosed a private conversation of much greater importance with General Delarey. The Colonial Secretary said he was entertained by him in his own house, and in that conversation General Delarey expressed his readiness to take part in the Legislative Council; but after he had seen General Smuts and others, he seemed to withdraw from that position, and he came to the decision that he would not sit upon the Legislative Council. Was not that a private conversation?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Certainly not. I immediately communicated that information to Lord Milner, and there was no secret about it at all.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS MR. BRYN ROBERTS said he failed to see why the conversation with Mr. Bosman should be treated as private, because the rev. gentleman had communicated information with regard to it to the Press.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Does the hon. Member say that Mr. Bosman has communicated an account of his interview with me to the Press?
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS MR. BRYN ROBERTS said he did not say that.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Has the hon. Member himself seen an account in the Press of our conversation which has been communicated by Mr. Bosman.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS MR. BRYN ROBERTS said he had seen communications in the Press which appeared as statements emanating from the Rev. Mr. Bosman. [An HON. MEMBER: "You said he communicated them."] No, what he said was that he understood the Rev. Mr. Bosman had made communications to the Press as to the subject of his conversation with the Colonial Secretary, and those communications must have come either from one or the other. He wished to know, in view of the damage which the right hon. Gentleman now knew had been done by the destruction of private property in South Africa, whether he was ready, on behalf of the Government, to make some compensation for that destruction. The obligation of compensating those who had had their property destroyed was an obligation binding upon them by international usage and international law, but when the right hon. Gentleman was challenged upon this he seemed to suggest that the damage done was very slight. In the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made at the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, he admitted that the country had been devastated and depopulated, and the extent of the injury done was now beyond all dispute. The Boer Generals, in their appeal, stated that they were convinced from personal knowledge that 30,000 houses on the farms, besides a number of villages, had been destroyed by the British. That had been admitted and proved by the corroborative testimony of British soldiers who had fought in the war. That was confirmed by the famous letter of Lieutenant Morris. The same thing might be said of the testimony of Captain Marsh-Phillips. The hon. Member was proceeding to read a quotation with regard to farm-burning, when—
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN reminded him that these matters were consequent on the action of the war, and had nothing to do with the Colonial Office.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS MR. BRYN ROBERTS said he was putting them forward simply as affecting the right to compensation. These farms were burnt, not for treachery on the part of the Boers, but in the course of military operations, contrary to international usage, and the owners ought therefore to be compensated. There were matters in connection with the usages of war which could not be compensated for, but these were not among them. They certainly constituted a breach of the Hague Convention.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN said the hon. Member could not discuss the Hague Convention on this Vote.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS MR. BRYN ROBERTS said that his contention was that if the matters of which he complained were contrary to the Hague Convention, those who suffered under them were entitled to compensation. But even putting aside the question of right, it would be a wise policy on our part to compensate these people. To offer money as an eleemosynary gift was simply adding insult to injury. As a, nation which professed to be civilised and Christian, and which set some store on its honour and good name, we ought to give these people that to which they had a right, and not either leave them to> starve or pauperise them by doles.

  EDUCATION.
  *DR. MACNAMARA(Camberwell, N),referring to the Vote for the Board of Education, said that in the course of the discussion on the Education Bill he moved an Amendment providing that school teachers should not be compelled to undertake certain extraneous duties. On the understanding that the Government would deal with the matter in the Code he withdrew the Amendment, and the new Code having now been issued, he wished to acknowledge the manner in which the Government had carried out its undertaking. But there were one or two other matters to which he desired to refer. Hitherto the Code had been based on the exigencies of a system under which half the

  1293
  schools were maintained by voluntary contributions. Under the Act of last year that system had disappeared, and be should have thought that fact would have led the Board materially to revise some portions of the Code. In connection with elementary schools there were some thousands of teachers known as 'Article 68,' whose only necessary qualifications, according to a description which had been given in that House, were that they should be over eighteen years of age, and should have been vaccinated. The late Vice-President of the Council had several times stated that it was his poverty and not his will that consented to allow this state of things to continue. He had hoped that under the new system a start would have been made to improve the qualifications of the teachers, and that it would have been laid down that after a certain date no further appointments should be made under Article 08. He noticed, however, that the Code was described as "provisional," and that early next year, or before, the Board of Education intended to replace it by a document more in keeping with the altered state of affairs. The Board had doubtless been very hard at work in putting into operation schemes under the Act, so that he must not complain if they had not yet revolutionised the Code. He simply expressed his regret that no limitation had been placed on "Article 68," and he hoped that before long the Code would be brought more into keeping with the new condition of things under the recent Act.
  He next called attention to the attempt which was being made to introduce a purely military system of drill in all the elementary schools of England and Wales. While in favour of physical training for children, he insisted that it should be carefully graduated and designed so as to be fitted to the physique of juveniles. Last year the Board of Education issued to all the schools in the country an official copy of a "Model Course of Physical Training," which he recognised as an old friend, the Red Book, which contained the instruction for drilling Army recruits. It was, however, very un-intelligently prepared, for the earlier part of the infantry drill book for recruits in the Army had simply been
  1294
  adopted, with a few verbal alterations to suit scholars. This was the instruction in the Infantry Drill Book:—
  "Before the squad is put in motion, the instructor will take care that the men are square individually and in correct line with each other. Each recruit must be taught to take a point straight to his front, by fixing his eyes upon some distant object and then observing some nearer point in the same straight line, such as a stone, tuft of grass, or other object."
  This was the instruction in regard to "squad-marching" in the "Model course of Physical Training."
  "Before the squad is put in motion, the teacher will take care that the scholars are square individually and in correct line with each other. Each' scholar must be taught to take up a straight line to his front, by fixing his eyes upon some object on the ground straight to his front: and then observing some nearer point in the same straight line, such as a stone or other object."
  As showing that the work of adapting the instruction in the Red Book to school purposes had been done un-intelligently. he pointed out that in the portion under the heading "Exercises with Staves," the word "staff" had been substituted for "rifle," but the instruction referred to the butt end of the staff. He thought a child might fairly ask what was the butt end of a staff. There was nothing particularly wrong with the Red Book as a course of physical training for soldiers, but his contention was, that it was not suited for school children. The physical training in this book consisted of about 75 per cent, of leg exercises, and 25 per cent, of arm exercises; but there were no exercises for the muscles of the neck, the side, the abdomen, the chest, and above all, there were no breathing exercises. A more nonsensical system could not be devised for scholars, and he maintained that several of the exercises were absolutely harmful. By way of illustration he cited the gymnastic march, which was suited for a recruit with a soleless shoe in a gymnasium, but absolutely unsuited for a child having a heel to his boot on an asphalt floor. There was an instruction which was optional, entitled, "Pressing from the Ground." The child was to lie prone, face downwards, resting on the palms of the hands and the tips of the toes only, the body to be moved up and down by straightening the elbows. For a child with a weak spine that was positively

  1295
  harmful. He asked the Committee to imagine the case of a staid, motherly school-mistress in ordinary walking costume going through the prone exercises and carrying out the following instruction—
  "Keeping the arms perpendicular, shoot the legs to the rear, the head, body and legs assuming a rigid and straight line, and the weight of the body resting on the hands and toes only."
  He confessed that he did not wish to pursue this matter too closely. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education had been industriously endeavouring to acquaint himself personally with the details of his office, and he would recommend him to go out into the Lobby and show hon. Members how the exercise could be done. Colonel Onslow, the author of this drill book, had stated that it was never intended to be used for the training of young children, nor wag it suitable for that purpose. But this model course of training was being pushed very vigorously in the schools. He thought that he found the true inwardness of this attempt to insist upon military drill in the schools in a series of articles which The Times had published recently on the problem of the Army. Throughout these articles there breathed the spirit that it was necessary to associate the school with the Army. Personally he objected to that idea very strongly. They had no right to compel a working man to send his children to school with the object of recruiting them for the Army in the school playground. In one of those articles the writer said:
  "Some system of elementary military training, including the use of the rifle, should be introduced in all schools in order to lay the foundations of a military spirit in the nation."
  To that suggestion he objected entirely He was not squeamish in regard to the Army. He was born and brought up in the Army, and was the son of a soldier, and he wanted to get physical training for the young. But what he objected to was that this was an obvious endeavour to make the schools a recruiting ground for the Army. He knew he was on perfectly safe ground when he said that, and he found in the circular about the model course no less than a letter signed "General T. Kelly-Kenny, Adjutant-
  1296
  General." What had General Kelly-Kenny got to do with the Board of Education? The General in that letter, which was addressed to officers commanding districts, said that he had been directed by the Commander-in-Chief to inform the Board of Education that a model form of physical training had after consultation with the War Office been proposed for the use of schools under the jurisdiction of the Board of Education, and that it was highly desirable that the teachers should be instructed in that course. Lord Roberts had approved of facilities being offered to all school managers for the practical training of teachers, and he had been requested to make the necessary arrangements about classes. Managers should, therefore, apply for the services of non-commissioned officers to give instruction to the teachers. The teachers were to go to some drill shed or gymnasium to undergo the exercises. That read to him that the difficulties and the objectionable nature—from a woman's point of view—of this particular form of military drill, had been, when all was said and done, entirely overlooked; although it was being pushed to a large extent in the country. He knew that the Inspectors of schools had been instructed not to push it in regard to women teachers, but that was not enough. He wanted the scheme to be put aside altogether as being thoroughly bad; and he objected to it further, that it was an obvious endeavour to link the schools with the Army. The Royal Commission on physical training in Scotland had reported a few days ago, and one of their recommendations was as follows:—
  "While we are unwilling to confine teachers unduly to a hard and fast system, we think that certain principles should be carefully observed, and fundamental uniformity of method, and convenience of organisation maintained. We have recommended the appointment of a skilled Committee to prepare, under the auspices of the Education Department, a model course for a national system of physical training for Scotland. We hold that a daily amount of school time should, so far as possible, be devoted to physical exercises; short periods of exercise at frequent intervals being preferable to periods of longer duration at greater intervals."
  He wanted to urge the acceptance of that recommendation by the Board of Education. He agreed that they should get together a Committee consisting of a

  1297
  medical man, a practical School Inspector, an instructor in a gymnasium, and a woman, to frame a first-class model course, which, if sent down to the schools by the Board, would be adopted right and left. If he could get that assurance he would not take any further action.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Class 4, Vote I (Board of Education), be reduced by £100."—(Dr. Macnamara.)
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid he should like to associate himself with the observations which the hon. Member for Camberwell had made on this question, because he regarded the issue of this new programme as to drill in the schools, as a distinctly retrograde step in the matter of physical education. He did not at all blame his hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education; he thought the scheme bad been issued without his knowledge or approbation, and he had no doubt that now the right hon. Gentleman's attention had been drawn to it by the discussion in the House the matter would be examined, and he felt confident that an Amendment, such as had been indicated by the hon. Member for Camberwell, would be made. Whoever issued this programme forgot a great many things that ought to have been remembered. They forgot that a great many of the children in the schools were of very tender age with very weak bones, and muscles not developed, and that the sort of drill which was very suitable to a strong plough-boy fresh from the plough was utterly unsuitable to these little children with their weak frames. They also forgot that more than half the children in the schools were girls. He did not know whether the drill sergeants were aware that girls were not anatomically constructed in the same ways as boys, or that girls wore very different clothes from boys. All kinds of bodily motions were affected by the dress the children wore, and the illustration given by the hon. Member for Camberwell as to what women were expected to go through, obviously showed that what might very well be suited to a man was utterly unsuited to a woman
  1298
  because of the clothes she wore. He thought it was a great backward step in physical education to attempt to treat little girls in the same way as boys.
  Another thing which seemed to have been forgotten was that physical exercises were almost universal, at any rate in I the town schools: while in country schools to which the children had often to walk considerable distances, it was cruel to make the little ones go through a number of physical exercises which they were unable to bear up under. Another thing that had been forgotten was that in the elementary schools there were a number of teachers, both men and women, who were highly qualified to give physical exercises to children. This subject was much cultivated in foreign countries, especially in Switzerland and Sweden. In Sweden there was a system known as Swedish Drill, founded on scientific principles, by which the muscles which ought to be developed were exercised—for instance, the muscles of the lungs, which were exercised while breathing. Many of the teachers in English elementary schools had spent a very considerable time in learning that method, and were really much more fit to teach the military authorities than the military authorities were to teach them. There was a strong objection to apply the new programme even to the bigger boys of over twelve years of age. He was anxious that every boy in the schools should become a Volunteer, but this programme did not assist that object. There was an extraordinary charm to some boys about the idea of military drill, but to undergo it was somewhat disenchanting, and if military drill was given to boys of fourteen or fifteen it would disgust them with military exercises, and before they reached the age of seventeen or eighteen they would find that they had had enough of them, and in all likelihood would refuse to join the Volunteers. He approved of the military spirit being cultivated to the extent that our young men should aspire to defend our own shores, and for that reason he did not agree with the argument of the hon. Member for Camberwell. He hoped the Secretary to the Board of Education would seriously consider this matter and see the pro-

  1299
  priety of appointing a Committee to frame a model course as suggested by the Scottish Royal Commission. He thought it was an extreme draw back that that Commission had not a woman on it as a member.
  He wanted to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education what steps were being taken to organise and co-ordinate the Inspectors' staff. In his official days he had told the House of Commons, and he repeated now, that the whole effect of the Board of Education on the schools of the country depended on the excellence of the inspection, and that was more than ever necessary now that the schools had been handed over to the local authorities. He was glad to see that the Government had appointed Mr. Jackson as the head of the Inspectorate at Whitehall. Mr. Jackson had been for a very long time a member of the London School Board, and engaged in a great number of organisations connected with the schools, such as the Children's Holiday Fund. For the last few years he had been organising the whole of education in West Australia, and so satisfied were the Governments of the other Australian I Colonies with the system he had introduced that they bad sent their own education officials to inspect it. He was glad that that gentleman had been appointed but he was sorry that he bad only been appointed head of the Inspectorate of the elementary branch. He wished to know whether any progress was being made towards reorganising the whole of the Inspectorate of the Department, so that it might be under one head.
  In the Board of Education a very great variety of inspectors was necessary, because there was a great variety of schools and teaching. There was the so-called infants' school, which, in his opinion, was a nurse school. Such schools ought to have women inspectors, because no man really knew how babies should be treated, or could find out how they were getting on. There ought, undoubtedly, to be women inspectors for that purpose. Then there were the elementary schools, secondary schools, and higher-grade schools, all of which required different attainments on the part of the inspectors. They could not divide the
  1300
  schools to be inspected into elementary and secondary schools; because there was some secondary education going on in all the large elementary schools, and some technical work also. In former days, the elementary education in such schools was inspected by an inspector who shut his eyes to the secondary and technical education, whereas the secondary and technical education was inspected by an inspector who shut his eyes to the elementary work. To have the schools thoroughly inspected it was necessary to have inspectors of attainment and responsibility under one superior officer. They should also remember that now that the local authority was the education authority, they would undoubtedly have more schools in the future in which technical, secondary, and elementary education were mixed, than they had at the present time; and it was most important, therefore, that the local authorities should have one official with whom they could communicate, and not have to communicate with two or three branches in order that a school might be inspected as a whole. He should feel obliged if his hon. friend would inform the House what progress was being made in that matter; and how far the services of Mr. Jackson were available for inspection in directions other than elementary.
  MR. BRYCE MR. BRYCE said he wished to refer to the action which the Board of Education had taken with reference to the Act of last session. The Committee would remember that under that Act a number of schemes were to be framed by the local authorities, and were to be submitted to the Board of Education. Ho had heard from a considerable number of local bodies that the Board of Education was endeavouring to hurry them, indeed to hustle them, to accept schemes somewhat hastily, and were undoubtedly putting pressure upon them. The local authorities believed that the Board of Education was anxious they should pass the schemes at once, and further that the Board was endeavouring to induce them to adopt its own views as to what the schemes should be. The reports which had reached him received some confirmation from the circulars which had been issued by the Board. The Board had shown a spasmodic and feverish activity in issuing a number of circulars to the local author-

  1301
  ities. It was quite right that the Board should convey information to the local authorities with regard to the provisions of the Act, and its legal interpretation. No one would complain of that; and they would all be glad that the local authorities should have the benefit of the legal knowledge which the Board had at its command. But those circulars went somewhat further. They were not confined to clearing up difficulties in the interpretation of the Act, and with giving information; they went on to advise, and to suggest what were the wishes of the Board; and they rather indicated that it would be the duty of the local authorities to fall in with the views the Board might be pleased to express. The Committee would feel that it was the duty of a Government Department to sail on an absolutely even keel in matters which were controversial, and regarding which great differences of opinion were known to exist. It ought to be absolutely dispassionate and impartial as between the different parties, sects, views and tendencies in this country. When a Government Department left this impartial attitude, and began to indicate views which were well known to be the views of a particular section, or a particular party, it destroyed some of that confidence which it ought to obtain from the whole community. He did not say that the Board had done anything more than indicate a tendency to partiality. He did not impeach the Board; and he was sure that his hon. friend the Secretary to the Board had every desire to be impartial; but he thought that if the Committee were to read several of the circulars which had been issued, they would see that, both by suggestion and omission, the Board at any rate appeared to depart from that impartial attitude which it ought to have adopted. That applied to Circular number 470a sent out to County Councils, and to Circular 470b sent out to Borough Councils. Section 5 of that Circular was taken by some of the local authorities as endeavouring to convey the view of the Board of Education that representatives of associations of denominational schools ought to form part of the Committees. That was not stated in so many words, but the Circular implied that that was the wish and desire of the Board. That
  1302
  was a suggestion which he thought would have been better omitted. Then Circular 472 suggested that the local managers and trustees ought to endeavour to form a common fund out of the Aid Grant, and reference was made to Schedule 2 of the Act, which, by the way, they were not permitted to discuss. The Circular went on to say that the governing body of an association of voluntary schools was an organisation which was well adapted for the administration of a common fund. That seemed to him to be going beyond what the Act authorised The natural interpretation to be put on the Act was that these associations of voluntary schools would come to an end under it; but the Circular suggested that they should be kept up, and be appointed managers of a common fund. That really went beyond anything which the Act authorised. The object of the Board should be to carry out the Act fairly, and not to keep up sectarian organisations. He thought it would be a great misfortune if the local authorities were to be prevented from doing their work in the best way; and it would be regrettable if the idea got abroad that the object of the Board was to endeavour to keep up sectarian organisations.
  There were also points which the Board of Education had omitted to which they might have called attention. A circular had been issued to the private owners of schools in which a number of alternatives had been suggested as to the way in which they might deal with the schools which were now in their hands. Those schools were 10 per cent, of the voluntary schools, and were therefore an important element of the voluntary schools of the country. This circular suggested various plans by which the school owners could hand over these schools to the managers, so that their denominational character could be imparted to them, but the reference to handing the schools over to the local authority under Section 17 of the Act of 1870 was made in such a way as to imply that that was the last thing the owner should think of. If the Board of Education had wished to give full information, the proper course would have been to have copied out the section of the Act of 1870, and have

  1303
  shown how elastic it was, and what opportunities it afforded to private owners to hand over their schools, for some purposes, to the local authority, and still retain their private rights. He regretted the Board of Education had not made that more precise, and also suggested to the private owner that there was a way in which he might hand over his school to the local authority, to the great advantage of the general system of education in this country, and still retain a limited control over the school. And he could not help wishing that the local authority also had received some guidance from the Board of Education with regard to secondary education.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid he rose to support the lion. Member for North Camberwell in the speech he had made in regard to physical training. The reason he did so was that he had had the pleasure, in March 1901, in company with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, to I take up a similar line with regard to the; attempt to impose military drill in all elementary schools. It counted for righteousness that when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University was in office he took the same view as he now took when sitting below the gangway. That was a fact sufficiently important to be mentioned, and sufficiently exceptional to become historic. On that occasion, it was as well for the Committee to know, the right hon. Gentleman was supported by the common-sense of the House of Commons. To-night there had been a tacit agreement among all Members, including even the military Members, that the suggestions of the hon. Member for Camberwell ought to be remitted to a Committee, on the lines of the Scotch Committee on physical education. If that were, done, many defects would be removed, and they would have a code of drill properly fitted to the children's physique rather than the soldier's order book. He believed, in its proper sphere, Colonel Fox's method was one of the best pieces of work ever done for the physical improvement of the soldier and the recruit. He had had an opportunity of seeing its working frequently at
  1304
  Aldlershot, and the splendid result of it. Colonel Fox had done great things to improve the physique of the soldier, but some of those who had been under him expressed the opinion that he had overdone it. But good as that code might be for young, strong, active men, it was incompatible with infant training, and he trusted that the hon. Member for North Camberwell would get what he demanded. In many cases children who attended the Board Schools were not well formed and, unfortunately, in many cases were insufficiently fed and physically incapable of performing two military drills in the school in addition to their play. He spoke with a practical knowledge on this subject, as a governor of a polytechnic which had 4,000 students. There he found that in proportion as they did away with the military drill, and adopted the Swiss and Swedish drills, so the children improved. He deprecated this attempt on the part of military men to make our elementary schools a recruiting ground for the Army that it did not pay was shown by the Army and Navy Gazette, which discouraged these attempts on the ground that instead of making the Army attractive and making children fond of the Army, it had entirely the opposite effect. What it did, in fact, was to repel the children from the Army and, generally speaking, to defeat the very object they had in view.
  The hon. Member was still speaking when the House adjourned.
  It being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.
  LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL [BY ORDER].

    SECOND READING
    MR. CLAUDE HAYmoved "That this Bill be read a second time this day six months." He said this was certainly a Bill which ought to be referred to the Royal Com-

    1305
    mission which had been appointed to inquire into the question of London traffic and locomotion. This was a Bill which was not brought in in the public interest, but or purposes of private profit, and sought for certain powers, among others, to widen certain streets on the route it served. At the present time, the middle of the streets served by this Company, were practically rendered not only unsafe, but positively dangerous and almost unpassable, without regard to the safety of either the pedestrians or the traffic which used them, and they did not provide stations for their passengers. Therefore, quite apart from this Bill being one of those which ought to go to the consideration of the Royal Commission, he urged that this Company should not be given any further powers until they had taken means to relieve the congestion at their termini, and this could only be done by their acquiring land on which they could erect stations at which to take up and get down their passengers. Another and equally good reason why the Second Reading of this Bill should not receive the assent of the House, was that this Company had not yet, under their Act of last year, proceeded with their Hammersmith and Richmond scheme. It was a curious fact that the public Press had no record of the many accidents which occurred on the tramway service of this Company. It was a matter of common report that accidents occurred daily, but such was the astuteness of the officials of the Company that they always managed somehow to suppress the facts and prevent them being published.
    Anyone who desired a unified system for all London, and had watched the career of this Company, would notice that the cleverness of the promoters of this Bill had been shown by the fact that they had recognised that they had to deal with a large number of small local authorities in and around London whose officers were no match for the skill and cunning of the gentlemen who represented the Company. If one other argument were necessary to ensure this Bill being sent to the Railway Commission, it was to be found in the fact that throughout this and similar schemes the President of the Board of Trade had been incom-
    1306
    petent to protect public interests, and that therefore the Company had been able to secure rights without any protection being given to the needs of the general traffic. He called attention to the fact that at the end of last session a very remarkable discussion took place in respect to what had occurred in a Committee room with regard to a scheme that was intimately allied to and formed part of the system of tramways which this Bill was designed to carry on. The promoters of those Bills and of this Bill were practically the same persons. There was last year a scandal with regard to private Bill legislation such as had never been known in this House. The House therefore should regard with very suspicious scrutiny any proposals which these promoters submitted to the House.
    *MR. JEFFREYSsaid this Bill was not one of those which ought to be postponed until the Commission had reported, for the reason that it did not provide in any way for new tramways, but merely provided for widening certain streets in compliance with the pledges given by the Company to the House and to the local authorities. He should have thought that the question of widening streets was more a matter for the Committee upstairs to which this Bill ought to go rather than a reason for postponing the Bill until the result of the Royal Commission was ascertained. He did not see the necessity, therefore, to postpone the Second Reading, and lie hoped his hon. friend would not press the matter.
    MR. JOHN BURNSsaid he desired to point out to the hon. Gentleman who proposed the rejection of the Bill that such action was absolutely inconsistent with the attitude ho had taken up with regard to the City and North-East Suburban Electric Railway Bill which was lately before the House. On that occasion the hon. Gentleman asked that the Bill, which dealt with a line twenty-two-and-a-half miles in length, which in his (Mr. Burns'), opinion ought to have been postponed, should be read a second time, whilst in this case he asked for the rejection of the Measure. How the hon. Gentleman

    1307
    could reconcile those two attitudes he did not know.
    Read a second time and committed.

    SUPPLY [2ND ALLOTTED DAY].
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)

    CIVIL SERVICE AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1903–4 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT).
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £20,265,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for the following Civil Service and Revenue Departments for the year ending 31st March, viz.—

    Civil Services.

    CLASS II.

    £

    Colonial Office

    25,000

    CLASS IV.

    Board of Education

    6,000,000

    CLASS II.

    Board of Agriculture

    65,000

    CLASS III.

    Crofters Commission, Scotland

    2,000

    CLASS I.

    Royal Palaces and Marlborough House

    40,000

    Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

    50,000

    Houses of Parliament Buildings

    16,000

    Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

    30,000

    Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

    20,000

    Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

    18,000

    Revenue Buildings

    225,000

    Public Buildings, Great Britain

    225,000

    Surveys of the United Kingdom

    90,000

    Harbours under the Board of Trade

    7,000

    Peterhead Harbour

    6,000

    Rates on Government Property

    250,000

    Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

    110,000

    Railways, Ireland

    80,000

    CLASS II.

    United Kingdom, and England:—

    £

    House of Lords Offices

    2,000

    House of Commons Offices

    12,000

    Treasury and Subordinate Departments

    40,000

    Home Office

    60,000

    Foreign Office

    30,000

    Privy Council Office, &c.

    5,000

    Board of Trade

    75,000

    Mercantile Marine Services

    30,000

    Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

    3

    Charity Commission

    15,000

    Civil Service Commission

    18,000

    Exchequer and Audit Department

    25,000

    Friendly Societies Registry

    3,000

    Local Government Board

    85,000

    Lunacy Commission

    5,000

    Mint (including Coinage)

    5

    National Debt Office

    6,000

    Public Record Office

    10,000

    Public Works Loan Commission

    5

    Registrar General's Office

    19,000

    Stationery and Printing

    320,000

    Woods, Forests, &c., Office of

    8,000

    Works and Public Buildings, Office of

    30,000

    Secret Service

    40,000

    Scotland:—

    Secretary for Scotland

    25,000

    Fishery Board

    8,000

    Lunacy Commission

    3,000

    Registrar General's Office

    5,000

    Local Government Board

    6,000

    Ireland:—

    Lord Lieutenant's Household

    2,000

    Chief Secretary for Ireland

    16,000

    Department of Agriculture

    75,000

    Charitable Donations and Bequests Office

    1,000

    Local Government Board

    25,000

    Public Record Office

    2,000

    Public Works Office

    18,000

    Registrar General's Office

    6,000

    Valuation and Boundary Survey

    7,000

    CLASS III.

    United Kingdom and England:—

    Law Charges

    35,000

    Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

    27,000

    Supreme Court of Judicature

    140,000

    Land Registry

    20,000

    County Courts

    8,000

    Police, England and Wales

    18,000

    £

    Prisons, England and the Colonies

    340,000

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

    140,000

    Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    14,000

    Scotland:—

    Law Charges and Courts of Law

    30,000

    Register House, Edinburgh

    15,000

    Prisons, Scotland

    40,000

    Ireland:—

    Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions

    35,000

    Supreme Court of Judicature, and other Legal Departments

    45,000

    Land Commission

    55,000

    County Court Officers, &c.

    46,000

    Dublin Metropolitan Police

    45,000

    Royal Irish Constabulary

    600,000

    Prisons, Ireland

    50,000

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools

    55,000

    Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    3,000

    CLASS IV.

    United Kingdom and England:—

    British Museum

    80,000

    National Gallery

    10,000

    National Portrait Gallery

    3,000

    Wallace Collection

    4,000

    Scientific Investigation, &c, United Kingdom

    22,000

    Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales

    42,000

    Scotland:—

    Public Education

    750,000

    National Gallery

    3,000

    Ireland:—

    Public Education

    730,000

    Endowed Schools Commissioners

    400

    National Gallery

    3,000

    Queen's Colleges

    2,500

    CLASS V.

    Diplomatic and Consular Services

    250,000

    Uganda, Central and East Africa Protectorates, and Uganda Railway

    320,000

    Colonial Services

    300,000

    Cyprus, Grant in Aid

    85,000

    £

    Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable

    32,000

    CLASS VI.

    Superannuation and Retired Allowances

    280,000

    Merchant Seaman's Fund Pensions, etc.

    2,000

    Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances

    1,000

    Hospitals and Charities, Ireland

    17,000

    CLASS VII.

    Temporary Commissions

    25,000

    Miscellaneous Expenses

    16,087

    Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

    ——

    St. Louis Exhibition, 1904

    ——

    Total for Civil Services

    £13,035,000

    Revenue Departments:—

    Customs

    350,000

    Inland Revenue

    830,000

    Post Office

    3,800,000

    Post Office Packet Service

    250,000

    Post Office Telegraphs

    2,000,000

    Total for Revenue Departments

    £7,230,000

    Grand Total

    £20,265,000

    Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Class 4, Vote I (Board of Education) be reduced by £100." —(Dr. Macnamara.)
    MR. JOHN BURNS,MR. JOHN BURNS, continuing his remarks, said the dearth of officers in the Army was due to the fact that very often in public schools the students were so fed up with the routine and monotony of military drill in the cadet corps that it sickened their military aspirations for the rest of their lives. If it were true that Waterloo was won on the playing field of Eton, that was in itself a condemnation of this particular idea, because it showed that if a man had brains and courage he would find in the hour of need that the adaptability produced by gymnastic exercises was more valuable to him than the results of monotonous military drill. He

    1311
    thought the training of children should be regulated by their strength, and should be in accordance with the desires of their parents. If the Code now under discussion were imposed on the elementary schools, it would, he believed, be resented and some parents would withdraw their children from its operation. It was a mistake to attempt to inculcate drill so early in life. It would be better to have children taught how to breathe, develop themselves, masticate their food, wash their teeth—and their language in some localities—swim, and so forth, and to see-that their parents obtained sufficient wages to provide them with good nourishment. When Colonel Onslow said that this particular system of drill was not fit for children, he submitted that the hon. Member for North Camberwell had high authority for asking that the whole matter should be submitted to a Committee. If the hon. Baronet persisted in carrying out War Office tactics and skirmishing proceedings for boys and girls under thirteen years of age, he would make more pro-Boers of parents than he imagined. Military drill and violent physical training should be confined to recruits and soldiers. If the Board desired to make the children smarter, cleaner, and more punctual, and to develop their bodies, instead of consulting a committee of drill sergeants they should take the advice of a small committee of doctors, schoolmasters, and schoolmistresses. He would lose no opportunity of protesting against the attempt to militarise instruction, and to impose upon physically weak children a method of training which, instead of doing good, would, in the majority of cases, do physical and moral harm.
    MR HENRY HOBHOUSEsuggested that the physical training course, which he did not believe had been introduced with any sinister motives, should not be pursued according to a uniform and cast-iron system. He was glad to see that modifications had been introduced into the Code, but they do not go far enough. The alternative courses ought certainly to be optional in every school, particularly in rural districts. The question of physical training was a very different one as affecting rural and urban schools. In
    1312
    the slums of big towns, the physique of he children was such that a great deal more of these active exercises were required during school hours, than was the case in the country, where the children had plenty of opportunities for fresh air and exercise. Moreover, in nine-cases out of ten, the head of a village school would be a schoolmistress, and it would be impossible to have a regular course of physical training. The time might come when they would be better able to do it, but at present it would be a mistake to impose upon all schools any uniform system. The conclusion he had come to, after having recently examined Colonel Fox before a committee, was that the whole subject was in a very inchoate condition, and much further consideration was required before any definite system was adopted.
    The inspection of schools was a very important matter, and might prove to be the keystone of the whole system, as the efficiency of the schools would depend on the efficiency of the inspection. He sincerely hoped that the Government would, to a large extent, place their inspectors at the disposal of the local authorities. To duplicate inspection all over the country would be bad for the ratepayers and bad for the schools. He suggested that the reports of the inspectors should be placed at the disposal of the local authorities and that those reports should be communicated in full without delay. He hoped the Government would take care that the inspectors were thoroughly efficient. Too much importance had perhaps in the past been attached to the strict limit of age, as that limit might prevent the Board securing the services of really experienced men who understood school work. As to the recent circular, personally he had no reason to complain of it. The Board had given a great deal of useful guidance to the local authorities and the managers of schools, but they should not stop at the issue of circulars. Under the Act of last year the local authorities had to consult the Board in framing their schemes, and it was most important that that consultation should take the form of interviews with some really first-class men connected with the Department, who could suggest new lines of work and offer legitimate criticisms. In the matter of higher education the local authorities would require much

    1313
    stimulus. They would be compelled to carry out certain duties in regard to elementary education, but there would be considerable danger of the work of higher education being neglected on account of the limitation of the funds and of the energies of the authorities being taken up by the more controversial work of elementary education. Another matter to which he wished to refer was connected with the science examinations in the training colleges. Two years ago, on the recommendation of a Departmental Committee, the Board of Education adopted a syllabus which provided, among other things, that general science teaching should in future be given from a practical and experimental point of view. He was sorry to hear that in the very first examination under the new system there was to be no practical examination in science whatever. The training colleges, almost without exception, having taken up the new syllabus con, amore, had developed their science; teaching in a very practical way, and they would be greatly discouraged by the examination being held on the old and obsolete lines. In conclusion, he congratulated the Board on the improvement which had been introduced under the new régime. A fresh era of improvements had been entered upon. He was glad they had taken up seriously the question of pupil teachers, that being one of the most important and pressing subjects that could engage the attention of the new local authorities, and unless they had some guidance from the Board of Education on the matter, it was possible that a great deal of their labour would be wasted or prove ineffective.
    LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid the question of military drill and physical training was one of the greatest importance. It would be quite as easy in the country as in the large towns, if it were thought desirable, to pass all the children through some form of elementary military drill, but whether it would encourage the unfortunate children to join the Volunteers immediately on leaving school he was extremely sceptical. He could not help thinking that the remarkable document which had been so ridiculed by his hon, friend was another of the triumphs of the War Office, and that the Secretary of State for War rather than the Secre-
    1314
    tary to the Board of Education should have been present to explain it. There was this essential difference between town and country districts, that whereas in the latter mere military drill might be of very dubious advantage, even from the point of view of those who advocated it, there was no doubt that in urban districts, small and large, a carefully organised system of physical exercises was one of the greatest necessities of the day, and when the County Council Committees were fairly in the saddle, a great deal might be done in that direction. The matter was entirely one of organisation, and now that they had committees operating over large areas, it ought to be possible within a comparatively short space of time, with the aid of the Board of Education—providing obstructive circulars were not issued by the War Office—to establish a good system of physical exercises, based on really scientific principles. If a boy was strong and healthy, in nine cases out of ten he would have a natural desire to use his health and strength in the Volunteers, or in some other manner connected with military life, but if he was driven through the mill too soon he would in all probability throw up the whole thing as soon as possible.
    With regard to the inspectorate, it was desirable that the intentions of the Government should be known, as the County Committees were now about to make their arrangements, and they could not tell what kind of officers to appoint or what salaries to offer until they knew how far they were to be assisted by the Government inspectors. At present there were the old elementary school inspectors, the inspectors appointed to examine secondary and technical schools, and those occupied in examining evening classes. Their districts frequently overlapped, and there was much room for organisation. By taking counties, or groups of counties, he believed much improvement could be effected in the service of the inspectorate. There had been a great deal of anxiety in regard to finances during the first two or three years under the new régime, and a circular had been issued explaining the intentions of the department. As that circular was a most difficult document to under stand, it would be advantage if a

    1315
    general statement could be made by the representative of the Board. There was one point of some importance upon which he desired to ask for some information. An attempt was being made in Church circles to form companies, which were to distribute a dividend of not more than 4 per cent, or 5 per cent., to found secondary, schools with the idea that they would be entitled to receive a payment of so much per head out of the public funds, and out of the Votes of this House for education. It had been stated at a meeting of one of those companies, that the Treasury had stated that they had no intention of allowing any such payments to be made. The proposal was that the persons who put their money into a financial undertaking, which would not otherwise pay, were to receive 4 or 5 per cent, from the taxpayers. Whether that was right or wrong it was desirable that the Committee should know whether these funds were liable to be used for the purpose he had described. He hoped the reply of the Government would be that the action of the permanent officials of the Treasury would be supported by them, because otherwise an almost indefinite prospect would be opened up for educational speculation, which was an exceedingly objectionable thing, and he did not think it would be to the advantage of public education at all. Those were the points which he desired to press upon the Government. He did not wish to say anything derogatory in regard to the action of the Education Office, because, after the passing of the Education Act last year, the case had been settled against them, and he anticipated that the Education Department would in all probability do their best, If certain clauses had been used in the direction he had indicated, he assumed that it was a matter upon which they might look forward to future legislation being introduced to remedy this. With regard to the action of the County Councils generally, he believed there was every intention on their part to rise to the level of their opportunities; and although no doubt there would be some differences of opinion in regard to certain subjects, nevertheless he believed that there
    1316
    would be a great many subjects upon which the County Councils and the Education Office would work together harmoniously.
    *MR. SHAW-STEWARTsaid that as one of the Commissioners who had just reported to the House upon this question for Scotland, he should like to say a word or two in favour of the appointment of a skilled committee of men and women to draw up a model course of physical training, for England, instead of relying upon the present model course, which was to a very great extent founded upon military drill. The inquiries of the Physical Training Commission had lasted nearly twelve months, and the Commissioners were all impressed with the necessity for physical training being most carefully organised all along the line. Physical training was different to mental training, because mental training was the result of centuries of experience, but physical training for all and sundry was something new, and therefore it was necessary to have a system which was applicable to all sorts of children, well-fed and ill-fed, well clothed and ill-clothed and devised after the most careful consideration of all the systems in vogue. The Commission examined a number of systems, including the Swiss, German, French and American systems, but they found defects in them all. The conclusion they came to was that in order to get the best out of all these systems it was not necessary to go to a military expert. Admirable as the military expert might be, and admirable as he believed Colonel Fox to be, it was not enough to go to a military expert only, and he strongly supported the suggestion from the other side that the Education Department of England should appoint a skilled committee, aided by medical^ experts, to draw up a model course.
    That course should be of a very wide and varied description, so that it might be varied by the teachers to all classes of children, suited to all conditions of health, and to children whether in the towns or in the country. In order to ascertain the existing physical condition of the children in Scotland, they appointed two eminent medical officers to examine a large number of children, and 600

    1317
    children were examined in Aberdeen schools, and 600 in Edinburgh schools, and the result of that examination showed that it was necessary that the greatest possible care should be taken in devising a system which might be applicable to all. The Commission, after full inquiry, recommended that there should be medical inspection of the children in all schools. They all hoped that the generation which was now growing up would be better fitted to bear arms for their country if necessary, he best system to enable them to efficiently bear arms was one which would develop those who were weakly as well as those who were strong. They should develop the bodies of children to the best state of efficiency to which each was capable of being developed, so that in after life they might be fitted to follow up any trade or profession, or follow the profession of arms, with the best possible advantage to their country.
    *MR. LEVYsaid he thought they were all agreed that it was undesirable that they should train children to become soldiers, and if his lion, friend went to a division he should support him. What he wished specially to call the attention of the House to was the excessive zeal of the Board of Education in rejecting the schemes of the County Councils, when those schemes were well within the meaning of the Act. The interference of the Board of Education in such cases was, in his opinion, unnecessary and unjustifiable, and it was unfair that the Act, which contained many inequalities and injustices, forced into it by the closure, should be so interpreted and carried into effect by the officials of the department as to make it seem more harsh. He desired to refer to a scheme formulated by the Leicestershire County Council. That scheme was absolutely within the four corners of the Act. By some means the scheme found its way to the Board of Education prior to being submitted to the County Council, and the day before the Council met a letter was received from the Board of Education, and was read by the clerk, stating that it was desirable to recast the scheme and therefore it would be better to refer the scheme to the Committee again and
    1318
    report to the Council in February. A good deal of time was lost and it was clear that some official or member of the County Council had been in communication with the Board of Education in an unjustifiable manner. The original scheme contained no provision for nomination by any particular bodies outside the County Council. The Committee was to consist of forty-two members: thirty-two from the County Council and ten outside.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON*SIR WILLIAM ANSON said the Leicestershire County Council did not submit any scheme at the time referred to, and as a matter of fact no scheme had been rejected by the Board of Education.
    *MR. LEVY*MR. LEVY said he endeavoured to ascertain from the right hon. Gentleman how the scheme came into the possession of the Board of Education by a Question put in the House; but he could get no satisfactory reply. Instead of a Committee of forty-two members the Board of Education proposed forty-six, thirty-four from the Council, and twelve outside members. Eight bodies wore also mentioned with powers to nominate—among them the University of Oxford, the University of Cambridge, the University of Birmingham, the Peterborough Diocesan Association of Voluntary Schools, the Midland Association of Wesleyan Schools and the Association of Catholic Schools. The original scheme made no provision for representation of denominational Associations. It was desired that the people nominated should be well versed in the matter of education and qualified to carry out the education scheme, irrespective of their religious opinions. People, he was convinced, would resent the unjustifiable interference with their schemes by the Board of Education, and those who had been inclined to give the Act a fair trial would probably not be inclined now to carry it out. The hon. Member proceeded to remark that the Borough Council of Loughborough had sent a scheme to London, but it had been returned, and the Loughborough Council did not feel inclined to make any drastic alterations in the scheme which they had submitted. They believed their scheme was absolute] y in accordance with the Act.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON: The scheme of the Loughborough Council has gone back to-day to the Council for publication in the form sent up by the Council.
    *MR. LEVY*MR. LEVY said there had been an impression created that the Board of Education were altering schemes to make them admit sectarian bodies. He assured the Government that if any attempt was made to impose sectarian or denominational control it would be resented by the people of this country.
    MR. ARKWRIGHTsaid he proposed to confine his remarks to the statements made by the hon. Member for North Camberwell, and he hoped the House would grant him its indulgence. He believed that the physical education of the children of this country was a very serious question, and he believed also that he was the only hon. Member of the House who had made this question an important item in his election address. In regard to what the hon. Member for Battersea had said, even if it were true that the movement for physical education in the schools had received a considerable impetus from the recent war and was to be set down partly to a spirit of militarism, it was not altogether a bad thing. But it was not entirely that. Our children did not go only into the Army or the Navy. They went equally to the plough, and one of the underlying reasons for the lamentable exodus from our rural districts was the phenomenon of sheer physical exhaustion with which the young child was met very soon after he had left school and gone to labour for which he was not fitted. He did not contend that physical education would do much to remedy this, but at any moment they were dealing with at least 2,000,000 boys, and, dealing with that mass, there surely would be, with an organised system of proper physical education, a tendency to help children to stay in the country—at any rate, there would be a general improvement in the physical condition of the children at the time when they actually left school and went to work. He did not hesitate to say that he thought it would not be at all a bad thing if the schools of this country knew more about the Army and Navy, and were actually drilled with a view to giving a certain amount of assistance in
    1320
    recruiting for the Army and Navy. He did not think the Secretary for the Board of Education need be ashamed of being recognised as the first and most important recruiting sergeant in this country. But, after all, it was not so much a matter for the Committee as for the Education Department itself to deal with. It was to a great extent a question of inspection and a question of administration. He thought every hon. Member who had gone into schools and had seen that extraordinary operation which was known as musical drill, must have left the school with qualms as to whether or not the right thing was being done for the children. He maintained that the idea of the teachers was that the drill had for its first object to attract and catch the eye of the examiner. The drill displayed was too often a slap-dash performance which satisfied that gentleman for a few minutes, but was not sound, and had the faults of a hybrid system. The department should deal with this drill question, but the House should lay down the criterion that no drill should be taught in the schools which a doctor would not allow his own children to undergo. That was surely a sound principle on which they should proceed in future. He hoped the hon. Member who moved the Motion would withdraw it. The debate had been long and interesting, and, he was sure, would have a good effect in enabling the country to realise that that House was giving serious attention to the matter.
    *MR. YOXALLsaid the question they were now considering was not whether there should be drill in the public schools—the question was what kind of drill they were to have-Higher medical opinion, so far as it had been consulted, was against this course of drill from the physiological point of view The Committee would have gathered from the debate that in this matter the War Office, not content with the magnificent successes in its own sphere, had poached on the preserves of the Education Department, and had again manifested that inevitable capacity for blundering which it had shown in its own proper domain. At the time when the attention of the whole country was drawn to the necessity of increasing the Auxiliary

    1321
    forces and the Army, it seemed to have occurred to the War Office authorities that it would be a good and a wise thing if boys from their school days upwards were trained in military drill. They seemed then to have proceeded to the Board of Education and insisted on something being put into the Code. The result was that the "Model Course of Physical Training" was issued. That course was all taken from the Red Book, applicable to recruits and private soldiers, and related chiefly to t he use of the chest muscles and the bayonet. It was a matter about which the Committee had a right to complain, that the Hoard of Education had allowed itself to be overruled and coerced by the War Office in taking a course of that kind. Did the Board of Education propose to emulate the incapacity of the War Office in these matters? Did the Board of Education, before issuing the "Model Course," obtain medical opinion upon it, and were professors of physical culture, inspectors, and teachers of schools ever consulted on the matter? He believed the answer was in the negative, and that nothing of the sort had been done.
    An alternative view was that the "Model Course" had been in some insidious way forced on the Board of Education, and that it had been brought into existence without receiving proper notice. The Committee had had that night a repudiation of responsibility for it on the part of the right hon. Baronet who was Parliamentary Secretary to the Board at the time it was issued. He thought he was therefore entitled to suppose that the War Office had insidiously succeeded in putting this "Model Course" before the country. If they had a proper "Model Course" drawn up for schools it might not be a military drill course, but he was sure it would be one providing a suitable preparatory course of drill for any career which a boy might follow in after life. If they wanted a boy to become a Volunteer when he grew up, they must not give him while at school his preparatory information in indigestible lumps. He dared say that the hon. Baronet would tell them that this "Model Course" was not compulsory. But it had been made compulsory in many districts, because of the ill-judged enthusiasm with which
    1322
    some of the inspectors had pressed this on. In the Code issued to-day there were some alterations and improvements which would go so far to ameliorate the condition of matters, but they would not go far enough. He urged that the question of the Model Drill course should be considered by a committee, and that in the meantime instructions should be given to the inspectors that it was not to treated as a compulsory subject. He also advocated the opening of the ranks of the inspectorate to teachers, and asked to be informed of the number of cases in which application had been made to the Board of Education for the variation of the trust deed of schools hitherto undenominational, with a view to making them denominational.
    MR. M'KENNAcalled attention to the action of the Board of Education in reference to the High Pavement School at Nottingham, in order to meet the requirements of the Board, the children in the intermediate department had been displaced, and accommodation for 150 children had to be found. An application by the School Board to use the laundry and the gymnasium for the accommodation of these children had been refused by the Board of Education. The Board of Education refused on the ground, firstly of the unsuitability of the buildings as at present arranged for ordinary teaching purposes. In answer to that the managers of the school on 26th February passed a resolution declaring that they were satisfied the laundry and gymnasium rooms were well adapted for the purposes of c ass teaching, and strongly urging the Board to sanction their use for the intermediate section. Independent testimony had been obtained as to the character of the rooms, and he was able to state that there could not be a shadow of doubt that they were far better adapted for use as a school than hundreds of schools which were at present sanctioned by the Board of Education all over the country. The second ground for refusal was that there would be disadvantages attending the necessary cessation in the higher elementary schools, of laundry work and

    1323
    gymnastic exercises. The Committee would be surprised to hear that the higher school was not using these rooms; for laundry work and gymnastic exercises. There was, therefore, no substance in that objection. The third objection was the apparent absence of any urgent need for the use of the rooms in question for the purpose. The Board of Education explained that there was ample surplus accommodation to be found elsewhere. In this matter he wished to bring no charge against the Parliamentary Secretary or the Board of Education, but he wished to direct his charge against those persons from whom the Board of Education got information. The Board of Education suggested that the 150 children should be sent to All Saints' National School, which had vacancies for them. In answer to a question recently addressed to him, the hon. Baronet stated that that school was only half-a mile distant. As a matter of fact it was a mile distant, and it was not only inconvenient with respect to situation, but owing to the nature of the land which had to be traversed it was dangerous for the children to go there. Questions had been asked as to the character of the land through which the children had to pass, whether assaults had not been committed on children on this wholly unprotected land, and whether it had been placed under special police supervision. On all these points the hon. Baronet had been told by his informant in Nottingham that there was not the slightest ground for asking such questions.
    Now, what were the facts? A simple reference to the map would have shown that the distance between the two schools was a mile, and not half-a-mile. That was not a trifling matter for children, especially girls, who had to pass over an open unprotected space with an evil repute, sometimes in the dark. What was the motive of the hon. Baronet's correspondent in giving incorrect information of that sort? On the second point, the character of the land, he had asked the hon. Baronet whether he had referred to the Chief Constable of Nottingham regarding the grave criminal assaults against children which had taken place on this land, part of which consisted of
    1324
    a deep ravine entirely unlighted. The great bulk of the children who attended the High Pavement School had to cross that land before they could attend All Saints' School, and it would appear from the facts, so far as the convenience and safety of the children were concerned, that it was far more desirable that they should attend the school in the neighbourhood of their own homes—that was in the temporary building—until the new school was built, rather than All Saints' School. The hon. Baronet had suggested that there were other schools besides All Saints', but from local inquiries he had made he understood that that was not so. He was therefore entitled to ask that the Board of Education should continue to allow the use of the temporary school. They all knew that the use of temporary buildings as voluntary schools had been allowed all over the country, and why in the case of a great School Board like Nottingham should the opinion of the managers be flouted, and the children lie compelled to undergo the risks he had described, merely, so far as he could judge, in order to bring the children into this All Saints' School? It was not as if All Saints' was a model school. What was the report that had been made as to that school? It would be only fair that the hon. Baronet should not rely wholly on the report of an inspector whose career had caused much trouble, and had not been absolutely immaculate. The hon. Baronet should rather listen to the appeal brought before him by so important a School Board as that of Nottingham, and sanction the continued use by the School Board of the temporary school building.
    *COLONEL WILLIAMSsaid he wish ed to emphasise the extreme difficulty in which County Councils were placed in regard to the financial responsibilities involved in taking over the work of the elementary schools. It was extremely difficult to raise the rate to something more than double that otherwise required, or else to borrow large sums of money which they would not be able to repay for three or four years, and on which they would have to pay considerable interest. Consequently they would have to diminish the work of the schools, and that would hamper the amount earned.

    1325
    But what was much more important was that the interests of education would be prejudiced, because it was difficult enough at present to get the ratepayers to take in interest in education. If the rates were suddenly raised it would throw back the whole cause of education for many years. He therefore hoped the Treasury would be induced to come to the aid, financially, of the local authorities to enable them to bear this heavy extra burden. He also wished to refer to the question of inspection. It was often claimed that the new Act enabled all education to be graduated, but if they were going to have various systems of education encouraged by various inspectors they would never be able to know where they were. It was a very important part of the coordination of education that the inspection should be in the same hands and under the same trained mind; and that the whole education of a county should be controlled by one authority and inspected by one set of inspectors.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON*SIR WILLIAM ANSON said that the debate had ranged over a very wide field, and he would endeavour to answer the various questions raised as fully as possible. Dealing first with the complaint of the hon. Member for Monmouthshire in regard to Nottingham, he had made special inquiries into the matter, and had ascertained that, for the credit of Nottingham, the Chief-Constable repudiated with indignation the idea that the open space referred to was more dangerous than any open space in or near any large town, and that, in fact, the charges brought against the character of that ground were unfounded. From the information at first received it had appeared that All Saints' was the chief available school for the children turned out of the High Pavement School. There was no doubt there were vacant places in All Saints' school, the use of which would necessitate the children crossing his open space, but there were abundant vacant places in three other Board schools, which were nearer the homes of the children, than would have been available if the use of the gymnasium and the laundry were continued. These vacant places numbered 242, and he thought that that set
    1326
    at rest any question that the children attending Board schools would be driven to a denominational school. Until the Board of Education were satisfied that a higher elementary school could be conducted under the conditions on which alone a higher elementary school must be conducted under the law they must decline to sanction the use of the temporary building. As to finance, the Board of Education had made the best arrangement in their power to meet the convenience of the local authorities out of the sums voted by Parliament for the present year—the Parliamentary Grant, the Block Grant, the Aid Grant, and the Fee Grant—and they could do no more. It was said that it was wrong to refer the local authorities to the Local Government Board or to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but it was to them that they must go, because the Board of Education had done all it could do, and could not get more than twelve pence out of the shilling. He now I turned to the staple of the debate. He was glad that the hon. Member for Camberwell, who opened the discussion, had been good enough to express his satisfaction with the clause in the new Code as to the non-employment of the elementary school teachers in other work than in the elementary schools. The hon. Member had remarked that, although the Code had been altered to some extent, he regretted that it had not been made effective in some other of its provisions. That he also regretted; but it must be borne in mind that it would have been very rash to revise the Code further in view of the new conditions, which were hardly yet realised, and while the Board of Education were working under very great pressure. They did attempt to revise the Code, but it was found that it would be better to leave things as they were for a while than to attempt the larger revision certainly called for, and to make only such arrangements as appeared to be urgent, rather than cause temporary confusion without really producing what must take time to produce—a consecutive and well-ordered Code. He came now to the subject of the new course of physical drill which had been so keenly criticised on both sides of the House. He had been somewhat surprised at the

    1327
    objection which came from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, because in the Code of last year this model course of physical training was set forth, not as absolutely compulsory, but as definitely a "Model Course" setting forth the minimum of what was desirable even in small schools. Almost the first important document which came into his hands during the first two days of his term of office was this much-criticised "Model Course," which he had received with veneration as the right hon. Gentleman's last completed work at the Board of Education. However, if the Code of 1902 were compared with that of 1903 it would be found that a very great change had taken place as to the mode in which the physical training was to be dealt with. The "Model Course" was regarded as suitable to the upper classes of elementary schools. What was now mainly set forth was that physical training should be looked upon as one of the most important parts of elementary education. The object in view was the healthy development and training of muscles, and not merely smartness and dexterity in the performance of drill. Somewhat severe criticisms had been levelled against the "Model Course," and ore hon. Member had said that the Board of Education seemed determined to make the children soldiers, and the parents pro-Boers. It was also said that some of the requirements of the "Model Course" were grotesque and injurious to the health, but to judge from the pictures illustrating the Swedish drill, that was nearly as grotesque as the exercises proscribed by the "Model Course," and in each ease the exercises were noted as optional. However, the Board of Education had become perfectly aware of the difficulties attending the carrying out of this "Model Course." They had discovered that the local conditions and circumstances of the schools, and the space available for the exercises, made it impossible in some places to carry out the "Model Course." It was very difficult to be learned by the teachers, especially by female teachers, while certain of the requirements could not apply to children of tender age or to girls. The main purpose of the Board was the physical education of the
    1328
    children, and he attached the importance given to it by hon. Members on both sides of the House. He entirely agreed with the hon. Member for Hereford, who had put the subject in the most forcible and impressive form. Nevertheless, he thought the "Model Course" had been somewhat hardly dealt with, because under proper conditions, and as a guide, it had produced excellent results. The President of the Board of Education, who took a great interest in the subject, went only that day to see a large school exercised in physical training, and had reported that the drill was very well done, and that there was nothing of a special military character about it, while it was seemingly producing excellent results. But the Scottish Educational Department had recently been inquiring into the subject of physical training, and the results of that inquiry would receive the closest attention. If it were necessary, and he thought it would be, the Board £ Education would be prepared to appoint a Departmental Committee to inquire into the best form of physical training for children.
    MR. BRYCE: Will it deal with the question of physical training generally, and not confine itself to the particular objection now raised?
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON*SIR WILLIAM ANSON said its investigations would not be confined solely to the model course.
    As to inspection, the Board would be glad to place the results of the work of their inspectors at the disposal of the local authorities. It was desirable that there should be co-operation in the matter; but the Board had some hesitation in suggesting that the local authorities were not capable of doing the work of inspection for themselves. As to the same inspectors undertaking the inspection of both elementary and secondary schools, the whole future of inspection was uncertain. A new set of conditions was being entered upon, and the demand for the inspection of secondary schools would be greatly increased by the requirements of the registry of teachers. Teachers would have to undergo a certain training and a period of probation. This would involve an addition to the inspectorate

    1329
    of secondary schools, and he hoped that as time went on they might be able to develop a complete system of inspection of secondary schools, and that it might be possible for their inspectors to interchange their work, and in that way the Board would get a better and more comprehensive knowledge of the whole educational system of the country than they could secure if their inspectors worked on two separate and distinct lines. But lie said this with reservations. He did not feel that it was possible at this moment to forecast the results of the Education Act of last year and of the work which was being done in framing a register of teachers, and he could only express the hope that they would get a fuller and better system of inspection of all classes of schools in the not remote future than they had had in the past.
    The right hon. Member for Somerset had suggested that the Board of Education might do something more to assist local authorities in telling them what they had to do in the way of secondary education. There again the Board of Education had rather shrunk from any appearance of a desire to dictate to the local education authorities. He suggested that they should send round consulting inspectors, who would tell the local education authorities the best lines on which they could conduct their secondary education work. He thought ho would prefer to wait until they had received some invitation from the local authorities.
    MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE: Under the Act the local authorities are bound to act in consultation with the Board of Education.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON*SIR WILLIAM ANSON said that was so, and when they entered into consultation with the Board of Education, they would probably say in what way they expected the, Board to assist them in developing their schools for secondary education. When they did that he need not say that the Board of Education would be most happy to do all they could to help them in their work. The next matter which had been discussed was the attitude of the Board of Education to the schemes submitted by the Councils; and some suggestions had been made as to the Board using such powers as it possessed to put undue pressure upon Councils. The object of the Board, first and last, had been to assist the County Councils in the work of forming their schemes; and to do this they sent round, in the first instance, a memorandum which told them what their powers were, what were the resources at their disposal, and the mode in which the Act empowered them to construct their committee They confined themselves almost entirely to the provisions of the Act lust session. But they did do something to explain—and this was what the right hon. Gentleman opposite objected to—what was meant by 'nomination" and "recommendation," and what were the duties of the Board of Education in respect to schemes. He believed that, on the whole, the well-intentioned suggestions which had been put forward had worked well The Board had made them frequently, and without causing offence. He thought the hon. Gentleman, the Member for Leicester, who had taxed him with some malpractices in regard to the Leicester and Lough borough schemes, could hardly have understood the process by which these schemes were made. There was

    1331
    great deal of informal communication between the persons interested. When the Board received the scheme they possibly sent it back with some suggestions. But those were merely suggestions. All the Board could do was to withhold its approval of the scheme, in which event it must make a scheme of its own at the end of the year, and get it put into operation by provisional order. Was it conceivable that the Board of Education should wish to adopt any course of that sort? The fact was that, so far as his experience went, the Board of Education and the local authorities had been working together in the most friendly spirit. The Board's suggestions had been taken in good part, and if they had not been accepted, the Board had taken that non-acceptance in very good part. On the whole, he believed that an excellent body of schemes would shortly be brought into operation. They would be creditable to the local authorities which promoted them, and of advantage to the areas in which they were to operate. The Board of Education had really been single-minded in this matter. There had been no thought of forcing the representation either of intellectual interests or of denominational interests on any council with which the Board had had to do. The des re had been that the council might avoid the risk of remonstrance, appeal, and delay in the operation of the scheme. As to the noble Lord's suggestion that there were still secondary schools which had been founded for profit, and which also obtained grants from the Board of Education, he must say that he knew of no such schools. If there were any he was ready to inquire into the matter, and he
    1332
    thought he could assure the Committee that none of the money now asked for would go in that direction. As regarded physical training, he hoped the Departmental Committee, which it was proposed to constitute, would be able to produce a thoroughly acceptable scheme. As to inspection, he hoped that in a short time a good system would be worked out.
    DR. MACNAMARA DR. MACNAMARA said he would like to express his sense of obligation to the hon. Gentleman for having decided to appoint an expert Committee to inquire into the question of physical training. Under the circumstances he asked leave to withdraw his Motion.
    Motion by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Question again proposed.
    MR. HELMEsaid he desired to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he would be good enough to reconsider the regulation preventing the giving of information with regard to the number of marks obtained by candidates who failed to obtain a place in the second class in the King's Scholarship Examinations. He ventured to think that where the friends of pupil teachers were sufficiently interested in the result of an examination to apply to the Board of Education, they should be told in what particular subject the student had not done well, so that he might either give particular attention to it before the next examination, or cease his efforts to enter a profession for which he was eminently unqualified.
    MR. LAYLAND BARRATTfeared there might be some misapprehension owing to the form in which a certain circular had been issued by the Board of Education when a scheme was before the Cornwall County Council. He moved an Amendment to the third clause, suggesting the substitution of the words, "schools not provided by the council" for "voluntary elementary schools." The Clerk at once said he had received a letter from the Board of Education intimating that they intended to use the words, "voluntary elementary schools" in these cases, and that if the Amendment were adopted, the Board would probably send the scheme back. Now he wanted to know if the Board of Education had any objection to the use of the words he had suggested.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON*SIR WILLIAM ANSON promised the hon. Member for Lancaster to further inquire into the question of giving information to the friends of unsuccessful students in the King's Scholarship Examinations. In regard to the use of the words "non-provided schools," the Board, after consideration of the point, decided in favour of the old-fashioned phraseology, merely substituting "council" for "Board" schools, but if any Council preferred the words "non-provided" he did not think there would be any objection to using them: it was merely a matter of taste.
    MR. LAYLAND-BARRATT: Was the clerk to the Cornwall County Council right in construing the circular of the Board of Education as an intimation that any scheme containing the words he suggested would not be sanctioned
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I think if any hon. friend looks at the document he will see it merely contains a number of suggestions: there is nothing to indicate that the Board of Education would necessarily refuse to approve or even to remonstrate against the non-adoption of any of them.
    *MR. WEIRsaid he wished to move the reduction of the Vote by £100 in order to call attention to the action of the Scottish Education Department. The Committee had heard a good deal about the importance of inspection. They had inspectors in Scotland who made reports to the Scottish Education Department with reference to bad ventilation bad drainage of schools, and bad supplies of water; and his complaint was that those reports were disregarded by the Department. As a result of the insanitary condition of some of the schools, and the bad water supply, fevers broke out in the country districts, more especially in the Highlands and Islands, which were far removed from populous towns. Then the schools in the district were closed. One school in the Island of Lewis, which had been attended by 200 children, had been closed for many months owing to fever; whereas, if the Scottish Education Department had attended to the reports of the inspectors, the disease might have been prevented. It was the duty of the Education Department to urge on the Local Government Hoard the necessity of taking action in order to get rid of disease as tar as possible. Fever was raging in the district he referred to in Lewis for months. The Education Department did not move in the matter. No inquiry was held. Such a state of

    1335
    things could not happen in England, and he wanted the Education Department to realise that it was a very serious matter that a school should be closed for months. That was not an isolated case. Such cases were continually happening in outlying districts, and no one took the trouble to inquire into them except the school inspector. He gave a good and honest report, but that report was disregard d by the Education Department. That was not fair to the children or to the parents. It was not patriotic that High and children should be left without education. What chance had they without education? There were no industries in these parts, and it was essential that the boys and girls in the Highlands should have the benefit of the best possible education to equip them for life in any part of the world. At present they did not get a chance. Another matter to which he wished to refer was the custom of carrying peats to school every morning. He thought that was abolished, and that a circular had been issued that it was quite irregular. He should like to know whether any steps had been taken to stop it in every part of the Highlands. The Report of the Royal Commission on Physical Training had just been issued, and he hoped that in every school in Scotland physical training, not military training, would be given to the boys and girls. He hoped the Lord Advocate would give him information on the points he had raised.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire)said the hon. Member had indulged in the denunciation of the Education Department, but he had
    1336
    evidently not been able to differentiate between a school inspector and an inspector of the Local Government Board. As far as the school inspectors were concerned, he could only say there was not the slightest cause whatever for imputing to them neglect.
    *MR. WEIR*MR. WEIR said he did not charge the school inspectors with neglect; he charged the Scotch Education Office. He said distinctly that the school inspectors did their duty well; but when they complained in their reports, no attention was paid to them by the Education Department.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY*MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY said that the hon. Member never seemed to realise the difference between the Education Department and those who were entrusted with the public health. There was no reason, whatever, for charging the Scotch Education Department with any neglect of duty in this matter. The defects which were brought to their knowledge were immediately brought to the knowledge of the local bodies. The hon. Member had never been able to clear his mind as to the real duties and powers of the Central Education Department, It was not a public health Department, and never would be and until the hon. Member got into his mind a clearer view of the functions of the Department, he supposed they would hear his vague denunciations from year to year. He could not tell the hon. Gentleman any more about peats. As the hon. Gentleman knew, a circular stopping the practice of bringing peats to school was issued; and, so far as he knew, there had been no contravention of that circular. But if there was, it should be brought before the notice of the department, in order that they might com-

    1337
    municate with the School Board authorities. The hon. Member entirely forgot that in all those matters it was the School Board that was responsible, and not the Education Department, who could not tell whether a certain number of girls in the Highlands were carry in peats in their pinafores or not.
    SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he desired to ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture a question with regard to a speech he delivered at Leicester. According to the report of that speech which appeared in The Times, the right hon. Gentleman said that the Board of Agriculture in the past had relied too much on the advice of agricultural bodies, such as the Central Chamber of Agriculture; and that it was his intention to substitute for such advice an advisory board, to be set up and appointed by himself. The right hon. Gentleman did not go into details, and, so far, no statement had been published as to how this board was to be constituted. Was it to be a paid body or an unpaid body? Was it to be appointed by the right hon. Gentleman, or by societies such as the Royal Agricultural Society, and similar societies? He would ask the right hon. Gentleman before he called this board into existence to consider a rather serious question. If it was to be set up by himself, it would remain for all time undoubtedly. There was this danger: that the President of the Board of Trade might take a line unpopular with agriculturists; and he would then be able to fall back on this board, and say that it was no use farmers' clubs or the Central Chamber of Agriculture taking a different view. He thought it was very necessary'
    1338
    before the body was called into existence that further information should be given, and that the matter should be fully discussed in the House.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY, Preston)said he would explain very briefly what the facts were. He thought the hon. Baronet had rather misunderstood what he said at Leicester, because the body which he proposed to appoint was a totally different body to that which the hon. Baronet appeared to imagine. He did not want to supersede the advice of the Central Chamber of Agriculture, which he thought most valuable. His difficulty was that such bodies only represented the general wants of farmers as a whole; and he was most anxious to get in touch with farmers in various districts, and with the various industries they represented. Farming in one district might differ very much from farming in another district; and he, therefore, wanted to get into touch with all the various localities. He did not want one body advising him as to farming in general, but as the industry varied in the various localities, he wanted to be advised from each locality to have people with whom he could put himself in touch, and learn the real pressing needs of the people. He proposed to appoint some fifteen advisers, a clear majority of whom would be appointed by the agricultural associations; and in order that all classes of farmers might be represented he proposed to retain the nomination of something under one-half in his own hands; because he knew that very often the associations did not represent the smaller men, and he was most anxious that they should be represented.
    MR. SPEARsaid they all had a great deal of confidence in the present President of the Board of Agriculture. He had shown great anxiety to be well acquainted with the needs of the agricultural districts, and had inspired confidence; and be ventured to express the hope that Parliament would support his efforts to deal properly with the important industry of agriculture by providing him with the wherewithal. They had two striking cases recently of the decadence of agriculture. One was the anxiety with reference to the native food supply in time of war; the other was the inferiority of recruits for the Army. He thought both these questions had arisen, in no small degree, because of the difficulties agriculturists encountered in recent years. They, however, looked with hope to the energy and ability with which the right hon. Gentleman was presiding over the Board of Agriculture. He was entirely in accord with the right hon. Gentleman's proposal to form an advisory committee. He thought it was of the greatest importance that agriculturists should be in close touch with the President of the Board of Agriculture; and that they should be able to bring to his attention matters which would promote agriculture, and prevent the depopulation of the rural districts. He should like to point out some of the means to that end. They looked to the President of the Board of Agriculture to help them with reference to railway rates. Certainly, the British farmer had a good deal to complain of in the treatment he received from the railway companies. He thought it should be easy for the Board of Agriculture to make arrangements with the railway companies to
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    provide, at least one day a week, trucks to carry farm produce in small quantities, at a lower rate than now obtained. Another matter was the desirability of promoting some uniform system of weights and measures. Agriculturists were being continually handicapped by the different standards, which caused inconvenience and confusion, and he thought also, loss. Another matter was the establishment of a system of parcels post for farm produce.
    And, it being Midnight, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of Standing Order 15, to put the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote.
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolution to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

    WAYS AND MEANS.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    1. Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the years ending on the 31st day of March, 1902 and 1903, the sum of £1,520,704 15s. 5d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    2. Resolved, That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, the sum of £38,997,200 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.
    Adjourned at six minutes after Twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Wakefield and District Tramways [H.L.]. The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
Staffordshire and Worcestershire Canal Pill [H.L.]. A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
St. Philip's Chapel (Regent Street) Bill [H.L.]; West Bromwich Corporation Bill [H.L.]; All Saints. Poplar (Rate Abolition) Bill [H.L.]. Reports from his Majesty's Attorney-General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Birmingham District Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Thames River Steamboat Service Bill; Jewish Colonisation Association (Petition for Bill). Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Thursday next.
St. Philip's Chapel (Regent Street) Bill [H.L.]; West Bromwich Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a (according to order).
All Saints, Poplar (Rate Abolition) Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a (according to order).
Scottish American Mortgage Company, Limited Bill [H.L.], committed.
Hastings Harbour District Railway Bill [H.L.]. Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Barry Railway Bill [H.L.]. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The order made on Thursday last discharged, and Bill committed.
Nantwich Gas Bill [H.L.]. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: The Orders made on Thursday last discharged: Ordered, that the Bill be not farther proceeded with.
Chard Corporation Gas and Electricity Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had
1210
not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 9th of March and Thursday last discharged; and Bill committed.
British Gas Light Company (Norwich) Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in. opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on Thursday last discharged; and Bill committed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  HOUSE OF LORDS MANUSCRIPTS.
  The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Calendar of the Manuscripts of the House of Lords, Volume II. (New Series), in continuation of the volumes issued under the authority of the Historical Manuscripts Commission: The same was ordered to be printed. (No. 18.)
  CHINA, No. 2 (1903).
  Provisional rules defining the respective jurisdiction of the mixed courts of the International and French Settlements at Shanghai.

  BOARD OK EDUCATION.
  1. Reports from University Colleges (1902).
  2. Provisional code of regulations for public elementary schools and training colleges; with schedules (1903). Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS, 1853–1891 (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
  Licence granted by his Majesty to James Johnstone, a convict under detention in Wormwood Scrubbs Prison, permitting him to leave the prison on condition of his proceeding to the Middlesex Hospital, there to be examined, and, if necessary, to undergo an operation, and there remaining in the custody of a prison officer, and afterwards returning when fit to do so to Wormwood Scrubbs Prison.
  PUBLIC RECORDS (ADMIRALTY DEPARTMENT).
  Tenth Schedule containing a list and particulars of classes of documents which have been removed from the office of the Commissioners for executing the office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and deposited in the Public Record Office, but which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation therein.
  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES, WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION SCHEMES, INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES, AND TRADE UNIONS.
  Reports of the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies, for the year ended 31st December 1902: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, the object of this Bill is a very simple one, and one which must be very familiar to those of your Lordships who carry on the Committee work of this House. A considerable number of small alterations in the boundaries of the are as of local authorities in London have been made under the London Government Act, 1899, and these necessitate corresponding adjustments of the boundaries of electric lighting areas. These electric lighting boundaries have not been dealt with by the schemes under the London Government Act, as it was considered more convenient that they should be dealt with as a whole by a single Bill. This Bill is introduced for the purpose. If your Lordships consent to read the Bill a second time, the Board of Trade will be prepared, where any difference of opinion arises between the areas concerned, to call a conference, and they have great hopes that that conference will save your Lordships the trouble of a Select Committee. The conference would be held at the Board of Trade, and some high official of that department would
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  be nominated as a member. I beg to move the Second Reading.
  Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—
  (Lord Wolverton.)
  Bill read 2a (according to order).

  INSPECTION OF MOTOR BOILERS.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I beg to ask his Majesty's Government, in view of the increasing number of small steam boilers in use in motors, motor omnibuses, steam lorries, etc., what system of inspection is adopted with regard to these boilers. I do not, of course, refer to water-tube boilers used in motors and motor omnibuses. Your Lordships are no doubt aware that a number of these lorries and motors move about the streets of London, and if an accident occurred, say, in Piccadilly Circus, it would have a most disastrous effect. I believe that last year an explosion of this sort did occur in the country, and that the man who was driving the motor was never seen again.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, in answer to the noble Karl's question I have to state that there is no system of Government inspection of steam boilers in vehicles of the kind to which the noble Lord refers. Neither the Board of Trade nor the Local Government Board have power to require such inspection, but, in the event of an explosion of a boiler coming under the provisions of the Boiler Explosion Acts, 1882 and 1890, the Board of Trade have power to order a preliminary inquiry or formal investigation into the circumstances. Steam boilers in motors would, it is thought, come under these Acts. They could hardly be regarded as domestic boilers, though the point might be argued in the case of private motor carriages.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: I beg to give notice that I will raise the Question at a later period.

  DISCHARGE OF SOLDIERS WITHOUT PENSIONS.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government (1)

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  how many soldiers have, since the outbreak of war in South Africa, been discharged from the Army without pensions for diseases not directly attributable to active service in the field; (2) whether, in view of the large number of men so discharged, the medical examination of recruits is carried out with sufficient care, as the discharge of so many destitute men must have a prejudicial effect on voluntary recruiting.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (the Earl of HARD-WICKE): My Lords, I am perfectly willing to give the noble Earl all the information I can on the subject. He asks, in the first place, how many soldiers have, since the outbreak of war in South Africa, been discharged from the Army without pensions for diseases not directly attributable to active service in the field. During the years 1899, 1900, 1901 and 1902 the total number of men so discharged was 6,745. As to the second question, I do not think we can admit that the number I have mentioned is so large as to have a prejudicial effect on recruiting. I would point out to the noble Earl that, as a matter of fact, during the last two years we have had better recruiting than ever before, and it is only during the last few years that so many men have been discharged. Prior to the war the number of men so discharged was comparatively small; in 1899 the number was 275, and in 1900 it went up to 2,539. During the years I have mentioned the total number of recruits enlisted was 126,149, and therefore the percentage of men discharged from the Army, without pensions, for diseases not directly attributable to active service in the field, is only five per cent, which I think we may consider comparatively small.
  Then the noble Earl suggests that the medical examination of recruits is not carried out with sufficient care. The Commander-in-Chief has laid down the very strictest instructions that no recruit is to be sent before the examining medical officer unless he has a reasonable chance of passing—that is to say, when he first comes forward and expresses his wish to join the Colours, the recruiting officer is supposed to satisfy himself that the man has a reasonable chance of passing the medical officer before taking
  1214
  him. In spite of that very strict order the number of men who are rejected prior to enlistment is over 32 per cent. If the noble Earl will refer to the report of the Inspector-General of Recruiting for this year, he will see that during the year 1902 the number of men who desired to enlist and were medically examined was 87,609 and that the number who were rejected prior to enlistment for various ailments and for want of physical development was 28,221. I think that shows that the medical examination is carried out with very great care, and that it would be difficult to improve upon the system now in force. The noble Earl further suggests that the men so discharged are in a destitute condition. I would point out that men who have been rejected for pensions, always receive a gratuity amounting to not less than £2, and that should any of them have been enlisted for over three years they receive on discharge a gratuity of £1 for each completed year or portion of a year of service up to a maximum of £12, so that in many instances the men discharged from the Colours for the causes mentioned by the noble Earl received an amount sometimes as large as £12, and never less that £2. When soldiers come before the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, owing to injury or illness incurred on service, they are very often given pensions for six or twelve months pending further examination, but the figures I have given the noble Earl are quite apart from terminable pensions.

  LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Before the House adjourns I desire, with your Lordships' permission, to present a Bill the object of which is to secure uniformity in the granting, by way of renewal or transfer, of licences for the sale of intoxicating liquors. This is not my Bill. It was drafted by the late Lord Bramwell, but, unfortunately for this House and the country, that distinguished lawyer died before he could bring it in. It was drawn up in consequence of what appeared to Lord Bramwell to be the injustice of the existing law, as shown in the case of Sharp v. Wakefield, and I think that what is

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  taking place at the present time proves that some measure of the kind is necessary. I therefore present this Bill for your Lordships' consideration, and beg to move that it be read a first time.
  Moved, that the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Wemyss.)
  On Question, agreed to; Bill read 1a and to be printed (No. 19).
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow a quarter past Four o'clock.