Sitting of 9 March 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
The Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of the Chairman of Ways and Means.

A POINT OF ORDER.
*SIR E. DURNING-LAWRENCE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to call your attention to an ungentlemanly act performed this morning by a Member of this House.
*MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better state what is the act he has to complain of.
*SIR E. DURNING-LAWRENCE: A Member came here this morning and wrote the names of two other Members on cards, and placed them on this bench. And this he did knowing that it was not in accordance with the Rules of the House.
MR. SPEAKER: Of course, it is not in order for hon. Members to place tickets in the brass sockets in the absence of those hon. Members whose names are on the tickets.
*SIR E. DURNING-LAWRENCE: Is it in order for one hon. Member to write the name of another hon. Member on the card?
*MR. SPEAKER: I have on former occasions stated that hon. Members who desire to secure places must come to the House themselves.
MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: This arises out of the Fourth Party.

UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 62 COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. 62 has been complied with, viz.—
  Great Eastern Railway (No. 1) Bill; Great Eastern Railway (No. 2) Bill. Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
  Bridgwater Gas Bill; Broadstairs Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Commercial Gas Bill; Coventry Electric Tramways Bill; Crystal Palace District Gas Bill; East Ardsley Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Gorleston and Southtown Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Great Northern Railway Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Great Western Railway (Pension Fund) Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Bill; Ipswich Gas Bill; London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Maidstone Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Midland Railway Bill; Neath, Pontardawe, and Brynaman Railway Bill; Newcastle-upon-Tyne Electric Supply Bill; North Middlesex Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Scarborough Gas Bill; Sittingbourne District Gas Bill; Sutton District Water Bill; Walker and Wallsend Union Gas Bill; Winchester Water and Gas Bill. Read a second time, and committed.
  Wood Green Urban District Council Bill. [By Order] Read a second time, and committed.

PETITIONS.
  DETENTION OF POOR PERSONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour: from Peebles; Kinnaird; Langholm; Dunisdeer; Tynron; Dunblane; Balmaclellan; Birsay; Caddonfoot; Cairney; Carsphairn; Cluny; Burness; Dalton; Durris; Elie; Gairloch; Glasgow; Wigtown; Kildrummy; Kiltarlity; Kincardine O'Niel; Lady; Leuchars; Markinch; Melrose; Minnigaff; Minto; Mochrum; Moulin; New Doer; Penninghame; Polwarth; Roxburgh; Strichen; St. Fergus; Stow; Tannadice; Tough; Tundergarth; and Whithorn; to lie upon the Table.
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE.
  Petition from Bradford, for extension to Women; to lie upon the Table.
  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  Petitions against: from Sheffield; Gateshead; and Canterbury; to lie upon the Table.
  BRITISH MUSEUM.
  Petition [presented 26th February] referred to the Committee of Supply.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ARMY ESTIMATES (ABSTRACT).
  Copy presented, of Abstract of Army Estimates, 1903–4 (Ordinary Services only), compared with corresponding Figures for 1902–3 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  CHURCH ESTATES COMMISSION.
  Copy presented, of Fifty-second Report from the Church Estates Com-

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  missioners for the year preceding 1st March 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  SEWAGE DISPOSAL (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Copy presented, of Third Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire and report what methods of Treating and Disposing of Sewage may properly be adopted, together with Minutes of Evidence, Vols. I. and II. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EMIGRATION STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Emigration Statistics of Ireland for the year 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS, ETC.).
  Copy presented, of Lists of Public Elementary Schools and Training Colleges under the Administration of the Board, 1902–3 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  NAVAL RESERVES.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Naval Reserves Committee, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Papers laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—

  CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND).
  Copy of Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General upon the account of the Irish Land Commission in respect of Church Temporalities in Ireland for the year ended 31st March, 1902 [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 64.]
  BUILDING SOCIETIES.
  Copy of Eighth Annual Report by the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies of the proceedings of the Registrars under the Building Societies Acts, etc. [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 65.]

  POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS FUNDS.
  Return ordered, "showing the amounts and values of Government Stock, Bills and Bonds, Annuities, and other securities standing in the names of the National Debt Commissioners on account of the Post Office Savings Banks Fund on 31st December, 1902;
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  together with any dividends accrued but not received up to such date."—(Mr. Channing.)

  PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (CONTRIBUTIONS BY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS).
  Return ordered, "of the number of Public Elementary Schools, classified into Board, Church of England, Wesleyan, Roman Catholic, British, and other Undenominational Schools, which have received for the years 1900–1901, 1901–1902 (1) Annual Grants, (2) Contributions from the Commissioners of Woods and Forests or any other Government Department not being the Board of Education, together with the total sum in each case given to each class of school."—(Mr. Trevelyan.)
  ADVERTISEMENTS (FOREIGN COUNTRIES).
  Address for "Return of the laws, if any, in force in France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, and the United States: (1) for regulating or restricting the exhibition of posters, bills, and other public advertisements; and (2) for the taxation of such advertisements."—(Mr. Bryce.)
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Treatment of Persons convicted under the Vaccination Acts.
    MR. LEVY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that two men, named Pick and Cokin, were arrested at Hinckley on 27th February for nonpayment of fines and costs incurred under the Vaccination Acts, and were handcuffed before being conveyed to prison; will he state by whose authority they were handcuffed; and will he take steps to see that such treatment is not again employed under similar circumstances.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.) On my attention being drawn to this case I called for a report from the local police and find that the facts are as stated in the Question. No special

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    authority is needed for the use of handcuffs in the case of prisoners when the police have reason to fear that without them they may be unable to carry out the warrant of commitment. In the present instance it appears that the officers charged with this duty considered that handcuffs were necessary to prevent the execution of the warrant being frustrated. I am not prepared to say that this opinion was not justified. The necessity for handcuffs must depend upon the circumstances of each case, though I am certainly of opinion that they should not be used except for very good reasons.

    New Naval Base—Claims of the Tyne.
    MR. PLUMMER (Newcastle-on-Tyne): To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether due notice will be given of any decision the Admiralty may arrive at in favour of establishing a Naval base on the North-East Coast, and, in that event, and before the selection of any particular port, whether an opportunity will be given to the public authorities associated with the Tyne to set forth the claims of that river for selection by the Admiralty.
    (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) This matter was dealt with by the First Lord of the Treasury in reply to a Question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Yarmouth on the 5th instant, † and I ask leave to refer the hon. Member to that answer.

    Carriage of Agricultural Produce in Denmark—Subsidies to Steamers.
    MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the extent and conditions of the subsidies granted by the Danish Government to steamers conveying agricultural produce from Denmark.
    (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) I would call the attention of the hon. Member to Section 14, page 8, of the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on Steamship Subsidies, and the statement in the Appendix therein refered to.

    Uganda Railway—Material.
    MR. O'DOHERTY: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will present to the House a Return giving particulars of the dates upon which the permanent way materials, rails, sleepers, rolling stock, and iron bridge work used in the construction of the Uganda Railway were purchased, the firms from whom they were obtained, and the prices paid therefor.
    (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) The preparation of such a Return would involve a very large amount of time and labour, and in the interests of the public service the Secretary of State would hesitate to assent to it unless it could be shown to serve some purpose of importance.

    Cotton Cloths Factories Acts.
    MR. SHACKLETON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in the sixty-three cases reported by the inspector under the Cotton Cloths Factories Act as having exceeded the nine volumes of carbon dioxide in every 10,000 volumes, a previous notice had at any time been issued for defective ventilation; and, if so, will he say in how many cases.
    (Answered, by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.) Previous notices had been sent within twelve months to the same occupiers in sixteen of the cases referred to, and at longer intervals to thirty-five such occupiers.

    Cost of Military Aid to Civil Power—Suggested Legislation.
    MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydvil): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any Bill has yet been prepared by his Department for placing the cost of military aid rendered to the civil power upon the local authorities for which military assistance may in future be asked; and whether he proposes to introduce such a Bill this session.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I have a Bill on this subject in preparation, and I shall be glad if I

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    can find an opportunity to introduce it this session; but I am not able to make any promise.

    Musical Copyright.
    MR. JOSEPH WALTON: To ask Mr. Attorney General whether, in view of the piracy of copyright musical publications, the Government contemplate introducing at an early date a measure to amend the Musical Copyright Act.
    (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) Consideration will be given to any reasonable proposals made by those interested in this matter for the amendment of the Act of last Session.

    Land Transfer Act—Registration of Titles.
    MR. REMNANT: To ask Mr. Attorney General whether, in view of the fact that possessory titles to land which are now being registered under the Order in Council applying the compulsory provisions of the Land Transfer Act, 1897, to the County of London cannot mature into absolute titles, he will consider the expediency of suspending the further registration of possessory titles until a scheme for facilitating the registration of absolute titles can be formulated.
    (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) This question has been considered, and it is not thought desirable to suspend the further registration of possessory titles. I may remind my hon. and learned friend of the Order of 10th February of this year, under the Land Transfer Act, for facilitating applications for the registration of absolute titles; and, although the Act does not provide that possessory titles shall mature into absolute titles, it is considered that their registration should not be suspended, as they will in the future occupy an advantageous position with reference to further registration which is now under consideration.

    Grievances of Customs Assistant Clerks.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether a petition, addressed by the Assistant Clerks (Abstractors) in the Customs Statistical Office to the
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    Lords of the Treasury in the month of June last, has been received by them; and, if so, whether he can state when a reply will be given.
    (Answered by Mr. Hayes Fisher.) Yes, Sir, and a reply will shortly be sent.

    Education Act—Schemes for Approval.
    MR. WHITLEY: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will state how many schemes, in pursuance of the Education (England and Wales) Act, 1902, have been submitted to the Board of Education for counties, county boroughs, boroughs, and urban districts, and how many have received final approval.
    (Answered by Sir William Anson.) No schemes have yet been approved by the Board, since none can be approved until after the period of publication required by section 17 of the Act has elapsed. Out of the sixty-two County Councils in England and Wales, forty-one have submitted draft schemes for the approval of the Board. Of these, twenty-one are now in course of publication. The corresponding figures for the other local authorities are as set out below.

    Schemes now published.

    Schemes formally submitted.

    Total Number

    County Councils

    21

    41

    62

    County Borough Councils

    12

    39

    69

    Non-County Borough Councils

    19

    68

    139

    Urban District Councils

    3

    24

    63

    Total

    55

    172

    333

    In addition, schemes not yet formally accepted by the Councils have been submitted for the consideration or observations of the Board, for three counties, four county boroughs, ten non-county boroughs, and three urban districts.

    Aden—Condition of Barracks
    MR. ORR-EWING (Ayr Burghs): To ask the Secretary of State for India if he can state whether reports have been made during the last two years on the condition of the

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    barracks and married quarters occupied by British troops at Aden; and if any steps will be taken in the near future to improve these buildings.
    (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) It has been reported that the quarters occupied by the warrant and non-commissioned officers of the Ordnance Department at Aden are in an unsatisfactory condition, and I understand that the question of erecting new buildings is under the consideration of the Government of India. I am not aware that, the other barracks and quarters occupied by British troops have been unfavourably reported upon.

    Licensing in Scotland.
    MR. BUCHANAN: To ask the Lord Advocate how many burghs in Scotland, of which the licensing authority at present is vested in the magistrates, will lose that privilege under the new Licensing Bill.
    (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) I am informed that the number of burghs at present having licensing jurisdiction, and which it is proposed to merge in the county as having a population under 7,000, is 48.

    Trawlers in the Moray Firth.
    MR. BIGNOLD (Wick Burghs): To ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the fact that twenty British trawlers have recently fished the Moray Firth under the Norwegian flag, if he can say whether any, and, if so what, representations have been made to the Norwegian Government on the subject.
    (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) The question of making a representation to the Norwegian Government is under consideration, and I hope shortly to be in a position to state the decision which shall have been come to.

    Imprisonment of a Seaman—Case of E. Moore.
    MR. HARMS WORTH (Caithness-shire): To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state the specific charges proved against R. Moore, of H.M.S. "Good Hope," who has been sentenced to imprisonment for ninety
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    days with hard labour at Cape Town; and whether the Lords of the Admiralty can see their way to revise this sentence.
    (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) Robert Moore was tried by court-martial at Arosa Bay, in Spain, on 19th February, and not at Cape Town. He pleaded guilty to having committed a breach of naval discipline in having published and sold on board the "Good Hope" a pamphlet containing criticisms on the conduct and organisation of that ship. On a review of the minutes of the court-martial the Board of Admiralty were of opinion that although Moore committed a serious breach of the regulations, there was an absence of malicious intent on his part, and, considering his former good character, the Board felt that they could properly exercise leniency in the case; they accordingly decided to remit the remainder of the imprisonment. The "Good Hope" having arrived at Portland, instructions were telegraphed that Moore was to be released.

    H.M.S. "Good Hope—Speed and Coal Consumption.
    SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty when His Majesty's cruiser "Good Hope" left Cape Town, when she arrived at Las Palmas, how long she lay there, and when she left Las Palmas and for what port, and where she is at present; and will he say what was her average speed in knots from Cape Town to Las Palmas; and what number of tons of coal she took on board at both ports.
    (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) H.M.S. "Good Hope" left Cape Town on the 24th January, and arrived at Las Palmas on the 10th February, having spent nearly three days (4th February, a.m., to 6th February, p.m.) at St. Vincent en route. She remained at Las Palmas until the 13th February when she left for Arosa Bay, arriving there on the 17th February and remaining till the 26th February. The "Good Hope" is at present with" the Home Fleet at Portland. Her average speed from Cape Town to St. Vincent was fifteen knots, and from St. Vincent to Las Palmas ten and a half knots, or twelve and a half knots for the whole distance. The vessel did

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    not coal at Cape Town or Las Palmas, but at Simons town and St. Vincent. At the former port 1,606 tons of coal were taken on board, and at the latter 1,780 tons.

    Tenders for the "Enchantress."
    SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will explain why shipbuilding firms on the Tyne, Wear, Humber, or the Thames were not asked to tender for His Majesty's new yacht "Enchantress"; and whether Messrs. Harland and Wolff have the contract on a lump sum or on the cost of labour, material, charges, and profit amounts.
    (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The following firms were asked to tender for the Admiralty yacht, viz.:—Messrs. Barclay, Curie, Denny Brothers, Harland and Wolff, Henderson, Inglis, Laird Brothers, Ramage and Ferguson. The above firms were asked to tender because it was considered they were best able to deal with the requirements of the Admiralty in respect to the new yacht. Messrs. Harland and Wolff have undertaken the contract for a lump sum.

    Navy—Promotions of Warrant Officers to Lieutenants.
    MR. REGINALD LUCAS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, under the new Navy scheme, promotion of warrant officers to Lieutenant's rank will be by selection in all cases, and not by seniority; and whether it is proposed in such promotions to take the age of such Warrant Officers into consideration.
    (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) It is proposed that the promotion of such officers to the rank of Lieutenant shall be by selection from the ranks of chief gunners, boatswains, carpenters, and chief engineer artificers when the latter are established, due regard being paid to seniority.

    Navy—New Ration System—Date of coming into Operation.
    MR. REGINALD LUCAS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether
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    be can announce the date on which the new rations system for the Navy will come into operation.
    (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The new scheme of rations has already been put into force for the boys' training ships. It is expected that arrangements will be made for the issue of rations on the new scheme for the whole of the Fleet at all stations throughout the world not later than the 1st October.

    Braunton (North Devon) Lighthouse,
    MR. SOARES: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will explain the cause of the delay in commencing the work of connecting Braunton Lighthouse in North Devon with Braunton; and will he give orders to the effect that the connection, when made, shall be made both with the coast wire and the Braunton Post Office.
    (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) I explained in my reply to the hon. Member's Question in October last† that the Post Office authorities had no funds available for the purpose until the next financial year, which has not yet commenced. I am informed by the Post Office, with whom the matter rests, that it is proposed to connect the lighthouse with Braunton village, and that through that village there will be communication with the Coastguard Stations both north and south.

    Irish Lights Board.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government intend to introduce a measure to reconstitute the Irish Lights Board, with a view to increased efficiency; and whether the Government will assist a private Member's Bill in that direction.
    (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) I am not prepared to give any undertaking on this subject.

    Ireland—Working Men as Justices of the Peace.
    MR. NANNETTI: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the names of a number of working men have been submitted to the Lord Chancellor, and to the Lord Lieutenants for the county boroughs of Dublin, Belfast, Cork, and Londonderry, from which a selection might be made for appointments to the commission of the peace for those boroughs respectively; and that in only one instance, on the recommendation of the Lord Mayor, a magistrate has been appointed from this list, namely, to the commission of the peace for the County Borough of Belfast; and whether, in view of the practice in England, he will represent to His Excellency and the Lord Chancellor the desirability of making appointments as justices of the peace from working men.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) It is altogether outside my province to intervene in the manner suggested. I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the similar Question put to me on the 11th June last by the hon. Member for South Down.†

    Loughrea (Galway) Loan Fund.
    MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the scheme in connection with the Loughrea (County Galway) Loan Fund has been considered by the Loan Fund Board; and, if so, will he say when it may be expected to come into operation.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The question of the establishment of a Loan Fund Society at Loughrea has not yet been determined by the Board. It is at present under the consideration of the Board's legal advisers.

    Urban Districts (Ireland) Return.
    MR 'OSHEE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant the Return on the Paper relating to urban districts in Ireland.
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    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Yes, Sir; the Return will be granted†

    Housing of the Working Classes at Dublin.
    MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the condition of affairs regarding the housing of the working classes in Kingstown and South Dublin; and whether the Government will consider the advisability of introducing this session a measure to amend the law affecting town tenants, inhabitant householders, and tenement occupiers in Ireland.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The hon. Member has privately communicated with me in this matter. The Urban District Council of Kingstown has applied to the Local Government Board for power to take lands compulsorily under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and has also applied for two loans to enable it to carry out the schemes proposed. The Board has instructed its Inspector to hold a local inquiry in respect of these applications on the 16th instant. I cannot give any undertaking of the nature suggested in the second part of the Question.

    Irish National Teachers—Repairs to Schools and Residences.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether an Irish national teacher, by the terms of his engagement, or the regulations of
    † The Return referred to is as follows:—Urban Districts (Ireland)—Return showing ()) the total rateable value of each of the Urban Districts in Ireland; (2) the borrowing powers of each, distinguishing between their powers under the Public Health (Ireland) Act and Local Acts (if any); (3) the amount borrowed by each Urban District on the security of the rates, distinguishing loans from (a) Local Loans Fund, (b) Stock, (c) other sources (exclusive of loans entirely repaid on the 1st day of January, 1902); (4) the amount of loans repaid up to the 1st day of January, 1902 (exclusive of loans entirely repaid on the 1st day of January, 1902); (5) the rate in the pound for all purposes levied in each Urban District during the years 1899, 1900, and 1901; and (6) the income (if any) of each Urban District from sources other than the rates.

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    the Board, is obliged to carry out any, and, if so, what, repairs; and whether he is bound to carry out repairs rendered necessary by storm.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) A distinction is drawn between school-houses and residences. Teachers are not bound to repair school-houses, but, under Rule 89 of the Rules and Regulations of the Commissioners, are expected to undertake at their own expense the repairs specified in that Rule in the cases of residences built by State aid. They are not required to undertake repairs rendered necessary by storm.

    Irish Land Conference—Papers.
    SIR JOHN COLOMB: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in the event of his deciding to print and circulate with other Papers relating to Irish Land Purchase the Report of the Land Conference, he will also print and circulate the Resolution and Statement on Irish Land Purchase of the Landlords' Convention, dated 10th October, 1902.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Yes, Sir.

    Irish National Schools—Assistant Teachers.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in the interests of Irish education, he will consider the advisability of allowing assistant teachers in Irish national schools of high classification and long service, who are at present in the third grade after ten years' service, to enter the second grade.
    (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Commissioners have reserved to themselves, by Rule 195 (f) of the Code, the power of promoting assistant teachers beyond the third grade under exceptional circumstances. It is not considered desirable to make a rule of the general character suggested.

    Reservists in receipt of Reserve Pay.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state to the House the number of
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    Reservists now actually in receipt of Reserve pay, land also the number of men not in receipt of the messing allowance.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The number of Reservists actually in receipt of Reserve pay on the 1st February was 38,823, there being 18,000 men on gratuity furlough at present on full pay who pass to the Reserve on the conclusion of their furlough. The number of men not in receipt of messing allowance depends on two conditions, viz., (a) whether they are under nineteen years of age; (b) whether they have performed six months satisfactory training. As regards (a) the number of men under nineteen on 1st February was 20,640. As regards (b) figures could only be obtained by applying to every unit.

    Strength of the Army-Militia and Volunteer Staffs.
    MR. HARMSWORTH: TO ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Militia and Volunteer staffs are counted towards the strength of the battalions to which they are attached, and also towards the strength of the battalions to which they belong in the Regular Army; and also what is the total number of both staffs.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The permanent staff of the Militia and Volunteers are shown on the strength of the Militia and Volunteers respectively, and not on the strength of the Regular Army, except in the case of the officers of the Royal Engineers, who are shown on the strength of the Regular Army only. The total numbers, including all ranks, are: Militia, 4,211 (1st February); Volunteers, 1,983 (1st January).

    Army—General Annual Return.
    MR, HARMSWORTH: To ask the Seretary of State for War when he proposes to recommence the issuing of the General Annual Return of the British Army.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Return will, it is hoped, be issued some time in April.

    Soldiers' Club at Malta.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Soldiers Club at Malta has been revived; and whether suitable accommodation has been provided for it; and to what extent is the management in the hands of non-commissioned officers or privates?
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The question of providing for the Soldiers' Club at Malta has been under consideration, but, in view of other more urgent and more important requirements, it has not been found possible to allocate any sum from Army Estimates for the coming year for this purpose.

    Affairs in Macedonia—Memoranda of Madame Bakhmetieff.
    ME. BOLAND: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether steps have been taken by the Government to secure copies of the memoranda of Madame Bakhmetieff and of the information supplied to the Russian Government by M. Westman, the Russian Vice-Consul at Philippopolis, with reference to affairs in Macedonia; and, if so, will copies be circulated for the information fo Members of this House.
    (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) It is not usual to apply to Foreign Governments for Reports of their agents for the purpose of publication here, nor is it desirable to present to Parliament reports which have appeared in foreign newspapers except in cases where they are quoted by our own agents as worthy of credence. Reference to Madame Bakhmetieff's mission will be found in Mr. Elliot's despatch of 12th December, on page 266 of the recent Blue-book (Turkey, No. 1, 1903).

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Army Corps Manoeuvres.
    MR. MALCOLM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will indicate the localities in which it is proposed that the Army Corps as units shall be manoeuvred.
    *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK, Surrey, Guildford): The manoeuvre areas will vary in each year. This year general manoeuvres in which the troops of the first two Army Corps will be mainly engaged will take place in Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Hampshire and Wiltshire.

    Army Returns.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will grant the Returns in respect of Volunteers, Army Reserves, Military Works, and the Royal Garrison Regiments on to-day's Notice Paper.
    *MR. BRODRICK: Yes, Sir; but I must point out that the Army Reserve Return shown on the Paper is not in accordance with that which I agreed to give my hon. friend.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I had intended to amend it in accordance with the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman.
    *MR. BRODRICK: If the hon. Gentleman will do that I will get the information for him.

    British Campaigns and Expeditions.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will grant a Return showing the number of campaigns and expeditions during the lasttenyears, together with the number of troops employed, British or Native, in each campaign, and the respective cost of each.
    *MR. BRODRICK: I have no objection to this Return.

    Army Buildings on Salisbury Plain.
    MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will place in the tea room a map of the War Department land, showing the buildings erected, in course of construction, or contemplated by the War Office.
    *MR. BRODRICK: I presume the hon. Member means to confine his Question to Salisbury Plain. If so, a map can be

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    given. To prepare such maps throughout England would be a serious labour.
    ME. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I thought I had included the words Salisbury Plain in my Question.

    Officers' Expenses.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the reductions which have taken place in the necessary expenses of officers have been such as to enable officers in all branches of the service to meet such expenses without recourse to their private means; and, if not, by how much the pay of officers still falls short of the necessary outlay incident to the rank which they hold in the several branches of the service to which they belong.
    *MR. BRODRICK: The proposals connected with field kit, furniture, and the provision of chargers as laid down in Army Order 1 of 1903, will have the effect of considerably reducing the initial outlay for officers entering the Army. In the junior ranks, however, as in most other professions, it is not expected that it will be possible for officers to live entirely on their pay, although it is to be hoped that the amount of private means requisite for cavalry as well as for infantry will be reduced to very moderate sums.

    Strength of the Army.
    COLONEL WELBY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the effectives of all ranks estimated on page 12, Army Estimates, consist entirely of the fully trained fit to be sent on foreign or active service; and, if not, what proportion the fully trained bear to those unfit to be sent on service.
    *MR. BRODRICK: The figures alluded to represent the total strength on 1st February, 1903, as distinct from establishment. As my hon. and gallant friend is aware, the peace strength of our Army, like that of all others, contains a proportion of partially trained men who are replaced by Reservists on mobilisation. The proportion of fully trained to those unfit to be sent on service varies in different units, but out of battalions of 800 strength over 500 were on the average found fit for immediate mobilisation in the late war.
    COLONEL WELBY: Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange that another year only the numbers on the establishment shall be shown, and not the number effective. I think the figures given are misleading.
    *MR. BRODRICK: Oh, no, Sir; it is impossible to divide in any year establishment and strength. Whatever the strength is must be shown to Parliament for the purpose of information; the number of effectives, in the sense of fully trained men, varies from year to year.
    MR. ARTHUR LEE: Do I understand that 300 men out of every battalion are not effective?
    *MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir. The strength of battalions for mobilisation, which used to be 720, was only raised to 800 a year, or a year and a half, before the war began; but I believe, taking the battalions as full, that only 500 were found ready for mobilisation at the beginning of the war.
    MR. GOULDING: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, when he stated the strength of the Army to be 12,000 above strength, he included men on gratuity furlough: and whether such men are borne on the establishment of the regiments to which they belong.
    *MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir. The gratuity furlough men were not included. They are borne on the strength of their regiments until they go to the Reserve or are discharged; but they were excluded from the total strength in order not to give a wrong impression of the state of the forces.

    Recruiting—How Numbers are Made up.
    *MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War why a recruit who joins the Militia and leaves it to join the Army within the same year is counted as two recruits.
    *MR. BRODRICK: Recruits who join the Regular Army from the Militia are reckoned as recruits for the Militia when they join the Militia, and as recruits for

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    the Regular forces when they join the Regular forces. If any impression is thereby produced that those who join the Regular Army are available for the Militia, it will be well to make a note in the Inspector General of Recruiting's Report to make this clear, and I will call his attention to it.
    In answer to a Question by Mr. CHARLES HOBHOUSE—
    MR. BRODRICK MR. BRODRICK said that when a Militia recruit passed to the Regular Army, he was taken off the strength of the Militia and added to that of the Army.

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

    Lord Roberts and Lord Belhaven.
    *MR. BRODRICK: A statement which I made on behalf of the Commander-in-Chief on Thursday last has been challenged; and, therefore, I must trouble the House for one moment with a personal explanation. Lord Belhaven has complained, by a letter in the Press, that he was misrepresented by the statement that he called upon Lord Roberts with Lord de Saumarez and made complaints as to certain practices in the Grenadier Guards. Lord Roberts desires me to say that what occurred was as follows:—Lord de Saumarez called on him on 12th December, and called his attention to a series of incidents affecting his relative and other young officers. On completing his statement he asked Lord Roberts to see Lord Belhaven, who had come with him, and who was waiting in the next room in Lord Roberts' house. Lord Roberts asked Lord Belhaven if the practices complained of in the regiment, and the caning of Lord Belhaven's son, were true within his knowledge, and Lord Belhaven corroborated Lord de Saumarez on these points, making a reservation that he did not wish to complain about his son's ill-treatment, as he had accepted Colonel Kinloch's word of honour as to his ignorance of the proceeding, though he (Lord Belhaven) had told Colonel Kinloch, in accepting this statement, that appearances were much against him. Lord Roberts told Lord de Saumarez and Lord Belhaven he should take the matter up officially, and
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    proceeded to do so. Under these circumstances Lord Roberts could only inform me that these statements were brought before him by the two gentlemen named, and he was much astonished at Lord Belhaven's disclaimer in the Press of 7th instant.

    Field Artillery Batteries at Limerick.
    MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, if the 68th and 126th Batteries of Royal Field Artillery, now stationed at Limerick, are in possession of their full complement of guns and horses; and, if not, what is the extent of the deficiency with regard to their equipment in these details.
    MR. BRODRICK: Both batteries have their full complement of guns. The 68th Battery has thirty-six horses and the remaining thirty required will be supplied as soon as possible; the supply of horses has been delayed through their being in quarantine after veterinary treatment. The 126th Battery has sixty-three out of the sixty-six horses necessary.

    Portsmouth. Harbour.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, are the Admiralty aware that the London and South-Western Railway Company proposes to substitute for the existing swing bridge a permanent bridge across the channel leading from the head of Portsmouth Harbour round Portsea Island to the sea at Langston Harbour; would such a permanent bridge wholly prevent this channel from being used by torpedo boat destroyers, and thus close the alternative entrance to Portsmouth Harbour; does the Admiralty propose, either by remonstrance with the Company or by opposition to any Bill it may introduce for authorising the alteration, or otherwise, to procure the abandonment of the proposal; if not, what steps do they propose to take.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast. W.): The Admiralty have sanctioned the construction of a permanent bridge over the Hilsea Channel after full con-

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    sideration of the proposal in all its aspects, including, of course, that to which the hon. Member's Question relates. The Admiralty do not, therefore, intend to take any steps in opposition to the project.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The hon. Gentleman says full consideration was given to this matter. Did the Admiralty consult the Admiral Commanding at Portsmouth?
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Yes, Sir.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: And did he approve of it?
    *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! This is not the time to raise that question.

    Boer Prisoners in India.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India why have Boer prisoners of war in India been put to hard labour, subjected to the cropping of the hair, and placed on bread and water for declining to do menial work on the ground that they were prisoners of war and not criminals.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY FOR INDIA (Earl PERCY, Kensington, S.): All prisoners of war are subject to the regulations in force amongst the troops in whose custody they are kept, and if they decline to obey them or misconduct themselves they are subject to the military penalties attached to such offences.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Can the noble Lord state without notice how many Boers have been subjected to these penalties?
    EARL PERCY: No, Sir, I cannot.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state what arrangements have been made with reference to the Boer prisoners of war in India who refuse to take the oath of allegiance but are willing to sign the conditions of peace; and how many Boer prisoners of war are at present in India under these circumstances.
    THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E., for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): No distinction is drawn between the taking of the oath of allegiance by prisoners of war and the signing of the declaration of acceptance of the terms of surrender. There are now about 800 prisoners of war in India who have refused either to take the oath or make the declaration, and it has been arranged that General Botha shall send a messenger to them to explain to them the desirability of making the declaration.

    Transvaal Mines—Employment of Natives.
    MR. TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster General, as representing the Secretary of State for the Colonies, what the statistics of mortality, sickness, and desertion are per thousand of the natives employed in the Transvaal mines during the last six months.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): The Governor will be asked to furnish the statistics asked for by the hon. Member, and they will be communicated to him when received.

    China—British Railway Concessions.
    *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with reference to the summary of railway concessions in China up to the end of November 1898 laid before Parliament as an Appendix to a letter from Sir Claude MacDonald, printed in China, No. I, 1899, in which 2,800 miles of British railway concessions were shown as against a smaller amount for each of the other Powers, will he state what number of miles of such British concessions is now existent; what British railways are now being actually made; and what action the Government are taking in the matter.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE, Rochester): With the exception of the Hankow-Canton line, in which the British and Chinese Corporation are no longer interested, the remaining British railway

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    concessions enumerated by Sir Claude MacDonald (about 2,500 miles in all) are still existent, but only the Peking-Newchwang line with its extension from Peking to Tungchow (about 600 miles), is open to traffic. The branch from Chung-how-so to Sinminting is approaching completion. The Peking Syndicate's line from Taokou to the Honan coalfields is in course of construction, and their line to Pukou is under negotiation. Surveys have been made for the lines from Soochow to Hangchow and Ningpo, and from Canton to Kowloon. The British and Chinese Corporation have just concluded a fresh agreement for the construction of the line from Shanghai to Nanking. I informed the House on the 4th instant† of the action taken by His Majesty's Government in regard to the Pukou line; with regard to the other lines, no action, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, is desired by the concessionaires.

    China—Wuchang Viceroy.
    MR. JOSEPH WALTON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the present feeling towards foreigners in China, and in recognition of the preservation of the life and property of foreigners during the Boxer rising by Chang-Chih-Tung, the influence of His Majesty's Government will be used to secure his reinstatement as Viceroy at Wuchang.
    LORD CRANBORNE: His Majesty's Government have already placed upon record their appreciation of the efforts made by the Viceroy Chang for the preservation of the life and property of foreigners during the late troubles. According to information recently received from His Majesty's Charge d'Affaires at Peking, His Excellency has memorialised the Throne for permission to proceed to Peking as a preliminary to his reinstatement at Wuchang. We have no reason to suppose that his return will be refused.

    St. Louis Exposition.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
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    whether he can now supplement his answer of the 18th December last† by stating what arrangements have been made for British and Irish commercial displays at the coming St. Louis Exposition; and whether a Royal Commission will be appointed in connection therewith.
    LORD CRANBORNE: I am not yet able to give definite information to the House. Arrangements are in course of being made, and gentlemen have been asked to serve upon the body which is to represent this country, but its composition, the question of its title, and the sum to be granted, cannot be finally decided until we have more information as to the support we may expect from those interested in commerce. Perhaps the hon. Member will put another Question later on.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I will put a further Question next Monday.
    MB. FLAVIN: Have any Irishmen been invited?
    LORD CRANBORNE: I must ask for notice of the Question.
    SIR A. ROLLIT: Have communications been opened with chambers of commerce on the subject?
    LORD CRANBORNE: I must ask for notice also, I am afraid.

    British and Russian Influence in Persia.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether His Majesty's Government have been or are in communication with the Governments of Russia and Persia with a view of establishing a definite amicable understanding as to the action and influence of Great Britain and Russia in Persia; whether any analogous communications have taken place with the Russian Government relative to Afghanistan; and whether Papers relative to either of these two subjects can be laid upon the Table of the House.
    LORD CRANBORNE: It would, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, be most desirable that there should be an amicable understanding between Great Britain and Russia in regard to their respective interests in Persia and elsewhere. Questions involving those interests have lately been under discussion between the two Governments. There are no Papers which can be laid before the House.

    Chinese Anti-Foreign Feeling.
    MR. C. E. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any official reports from Tientsin and Manchuria as to the Boxer movement and anti-foreign feeling in China; and will he state what measures the Government are taking in the matter.
    LORD CRANBORNE: No information has been received from Manchuria, but His Majesty's Consul General at Hankow has reported that he had received trust-worthy information of a threatened movement in Kansu. A report from the British Vice Consul at Tientsin also pointed in the same direction. His Majesty's Charge d' Affaires has warned the Chinese Government, and the Wai-pu-wu have stated in reply that they have received no corroboration of the news, and that the reports have probably arisen from movements of disbanded troops in Kansu.

    Argentine Finance—Consular Report.
    MR. ROSE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can explain the delay in the issue of the Consular Report on the Finances of the Argentine Republic which has just been issued, but which was received by the Foreign Office in the middle of December; and whether he can arrange for the issue of similar Consular Reports with less delay in future.
    LORD CRANBORNE: The delay was due to the Report having been referred to the author for revision. He was expected to return to England at the beginning of the year but his coming was unavoidably postponed.

    Scotch Whisky.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that English spirit, made mainly from molasses, is used in blending and bottling operations, for home consumption, in Excise or Customs warehouses in Scotland; that operations of this kind are carried on in Government warehouses and under the supervison of Revenue officials; and will he say whether spirit made from molasses is permitted to be described and sold as Scotch whisky, either separately or blended.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE, Croydon): English spirit made mainly from molasses is not distinguished in the Revenue accounts from spirit manufactured from other materials, and there is nothing to prevent its being used in blending and bottling operations for home consumption in Excise or Customs warehouses in Scotland. The Revenue authorities have no means of knowing how spirits in casks, whether made from molasses or not, is described and sold by the vendor; and they do not interfere with labels or names used on bottles or cases filled or made up in bond, beyond seeing that no label or inscription is used implying official countenance or guarantee of the correctness of the statements made.
    MR. MACVEAGH: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say it is not possible for the Excise to discover whether this "Scotch" whisky is manufactured from molasses and yet sold as Scotch?
    MR. RITCHIE: The Excise have no power to ask as to what the spirit is made of, or to penalise any particular product.
    MR. MACVEAGH: Will the right hon. Gentleman cause inquiry to be made as to the constituents of Scotch whisky?
    [No answer was given.]

    Death Duties on Licensed Properties.
    SIR W. HART DYKE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that death duties have been charged and paid upon licensed property valued at from nineteen to twenty-five years' purchase upon the gross estimated rental, and that a few weeks afterwards notice has been given to surrender some of the very licences upon which the said duty had just been charged; and whether he can suggest any remedy for such a state of affairs.
    MR. RITCHIE: The Estate Duty Office has no knowledge of any such cases as the right hon. Member refers to. But, if he will furnish particulars, inquiry shall be made.

    Brussels Sugar Convention—Views of British Colonies and India.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade have His Majesty's Government, in fulfilment of their obligation under the Brussels Sugar Convention signed 5th March, 1902, submitted that Convention to the self-governing colonies and to the East Indies, so that they may have an opportunity of giving their adhesion to it; if so, to which of the self-governing colonies has it been so submitted, and what reply has been received in each case; and will His Majesty's Government lay these replies upon the Table.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): I am informed by the India Office and the Colonial Office, which are the two Departments immediately concerned, that the Convention has been duly submitted to the Governments of India and the self-governing colonies, that a reply has been received from the Commonwealth of Australia briefly stating that they do not desire to adhere to the Convention, and that the remaining self-governing colonies and the Government of India have not as yet signified their wishes in the matter. When the correspondence on the subject is complete, I have no doubt my right hon. friends the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Secretary of State for India
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    will consider whether any, and, if so, what Papers on the subject should be laid upon the Table.

    Manchester Post Office—Head Postmen.
    MR. C. E. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether, in view of the dissatisfaction caused amongst the staff of the Manchester Post Office by the recent promotions of allowance holders to the head postmen's class, thereby passing the allowance holders over the heads of seniors in the service, he will take care that the same system be not employed in the mode of selection of any new appointments about to be filled there.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I can only refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to his Question on the 25th ultimo, and to which I have nothing to add.*

    Alien Criminals.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will add to the Return in preparation relating to alien prisoners now undergoing punishment, a statement showing approximately the total cost to the country of carrying out the sentences, passed upon them.
    *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's): Yes, Sir; the Return which I have promised of aliens in prison at a given date will contain an approximate calculation of the cost entailed by the detention of these persons.

    London and Globe Finance Corporation.
    MR. LAMBERT (Devonshire, South. Molton): I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General whether evidence has been laid before him that a shareholder of the London and Globe Finance Corporation, after the publication of the balance-sheet of 5th December, 1900, bought further shares, believing such balance-sheet to be true; and, if so, will he reconsider his, decision not to prosecute the directors.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs): The only evidence to this effect was that one person bought some shares at the price of 2s. 10½d. after The company had gone into liquidation. Having regard to the date of the purchase and the amount paid, this fact did not appear to me to be one which should affect my judgment.

    Scottish Licensing Law.
    MR. PARKER SMITH (Lanarkshire, Partick): I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he proposes to bring in a Bill to consolidate the existing licensing law of Scotland; and, if so, what course he intends to pursue in regard to it.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire): It is the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill to consolidate the existing licensing law of Scotland, and the course of procedure with regard to the Bill is still under consideration.

    Customs Boatmen's Grievances.
    MR. HARRY SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether, in view of the Report of the Committee appointed last year to inquire into the alleged grievances of the Customs boatmen, he can now state whether he can make any, and, if so, what, improvements in the present system and in the status of the men employed.
    *THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (MR. HAYES FISHER, Fulham): Yes, Sir. The Board of Customs have submitted proposals to the Treasury which will effect a marked improvement in the position of the boatmen. These proposals I have decided to sanction practically as formulated. They include an addition to the staff of one Chief Preventive Officer and thirty Preventive Officers, Upper Section: a reduction of eight in the Preventive Officers, Lower Section, and a reduction of 133 in the number of established boatmen, and sixteen in the number of watchers. These alterations involve a considerable increase in the proportion of the higher to the lower clashes. They will also facilitate the general adoption (so far as possible) of
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    the eight hours day. In addition, a system of star allowances (equivalent to good conduct stripes) will be introduced, the allowances now given for re-rummaging being abolished. Each "star" will carry with it an extra allowance of £2 10s. per annum. A boatman will be eligible for one star after ten years service, for two stars after fifteen years service, and for three stars after twenty years service. Thus the possible maximum of his scale will be increased by £7 10s. Additional benefits will be conferred upon other portions of the Waterguard Service which I need not specify at present.
    The House will be glad to learn that the cost of these concessions will be counterbalanced by economies resulting from improved methods of rummaging ships. A general order containing a formal announcement of the alterations will shortly be issued by the Board of Customs.

    Seed Potatoes for Ireland.
    MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will publish the particulars of the names and quantities of seed potatoes required by the Department of Agriculture for Ireland, and take steps to bring these particulars before English growers, so that they may have an opportunity of tendering for the supply.
    *THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM, Dover): The Department is not purchasing seed potatoes for demonstration plots this year.

    Inspection of Irish Intermediate Schools.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will explain why this year three only of the six temporary inspectors employed during last year have been appointed to do the work in connection with the inspection of intermediate schools in Ireland; and will he say what steps it is proposed to take to place the inspection of the intermediate schools in Ireland upon a permanent basis.
    *ME. WYNDHAM: Only three of the gentlemen employed last year are available this year. A fourth temporary inspector, not so employed, has recently been appointed. The Board is considering the appointment of two others. The whole question of inspection is engaging the attention of the Government.

    Swinford Seed Loan.
    MR. O'KELLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received from the Swinford District Council a statement dealing with a claim of the Commissioners of Works in connection with interest on a loan under the Seed Supply and Potato Spraying (Ireland) Act, 1898; and, if so, whether, in view of the circumstances of this case, he can see his way to cancel the claim altogether.
    *MR. WYNDHAM: The statement in question has been received, and is at present under consideration.

    Irish School Teachers—New Rules and Salaries.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a petition from ninety-five teachers and their managers, asking for an inquiry into the manner in which salaries were fixed under the New Rules; and whether, in view of the assurances given officially in the House that no teacher would suffer financially by the changes that were being made, the inquiry which has been asked for will be granted.
    *MR. WYNDHAM: Representations have been made by a number of teachers complaining that their salaries had not been fixed on an equitable basis. In all such cases careful inquiry has been made by the Commissioners, and the salaries revised whenever it was deemed fair and right to do so. As against these representations I would refer the hon. Member to the Report of the Controller and Auditor General at page 407 of the Appropriation Accounts for the year 1901–1902, just issued, in which he draws attention to test audits of the correctness of the consolidated salaries awarded to teachers, as a result of which
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    it was ascertained that a number of teachers were paid salaries in excess of what they ought to have been paid. The existing machinery has proved adequate to deal with all cases of the kind mentioned, and I see no sufficient reason for holding a special inquiry in the matter.

    Land Purchase in Leitrim—Gillmor's Case.
    MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether ho will state the extent in statute measure of the holding purchased under the terms of an agreement, dated 24th July, 1902, by Mr. Stuart Gillmor, merchant, of Dromahair, county Leitrim, for the purchase of which a sum of £480 was advanced by the Land Commission, and the terms upon which this advance was made.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Thirteen acres, one rood, twenty-eight perches. The advance was made for the purchase of the fee simple of the holding.

    Roxboro Road Schools, Limerick.
    *MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that the Roxboro Road Schools have been in the occupation of the Rev. Dean Gregg: from the year 1880 to the present time at a yearly rent of £20, with a covenant on his part to keep them in repair, will he state in what year did the rents begin to accumulate in the hands of the Commissioners, and the amount of these accumulations previous to the inquiry by the Education Endowments Commission; and if there were none, can he say what became of the rents and who is responsible for them.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Under the agreement made with Dean Gregg he is bound to keep the school premises in good repair, and to yield up the same in as good condition and repair as he received them, reasonable wear and tear excepted. There were various accumulations from time to time between 1880 and 1891, resulting from excess of income over expenditure. The total expenditure in that period by the Commissioners on repairs was £198. During the same period Dean Gregg expended on the premises out of his own

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    money over £160. In October, 1887, when the inquiry was held by the Commissioners, the net balance in their hands was £45.

    Buncrana and Cardonagh Railway.
    MR. M'FADDEN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if arbitrators were appointed by the Board, as required by Section 6 of the Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1883, in connection with the Buncrana to Carndonagh Railway, County Donegal; can he say whether the arbitrators certified any sum payable on foot of the guarantee sanctioned by the Grand Jury of the county prior to the commencement of the construction of the railway; and, if so, what was the amount certified to be due and payable by the Donegal County Council on foot of the guarantee.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative. I have no official information on the further points raised, as certificates issued by arbitrators under the provisions referred to are not furnished to the Board of Trade, whose functions in the matter do not extend beyond the appointment of the arbitrators.

    Limerick Postal and Telegraph Staffs' Grievances.
    *MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he will explain why irregularities committed by the postal and telegraph staffs at Limerick are recorded and taken into consideration in connection with the granting of annual increments, seeing that such irregularities are disregarded at Dublin, Cork, Belfast, and other large offices.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I have no reason to believe that there is any such variation in practice as the hon. Member describes. No increment can be granted to any officer without a certificate that his conduct in the preceding twelve months has been approved.

    Limerick Post Office—Assistant Superintendentship.
    *MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether it is his intention to promote a local official to the
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    assistant superintendentship now vacant at Limerick Post Office; and, if not, will he assign the reason.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No recommendation for filling the vacancy has yet been made, but the claims and qualifications of the officers in Limerick will receive my careful consideration.
    *MR. JOYCE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the duties of this office have not been performed in the most satisfactory manner by a local officer during the absence of the assistant superintendent, and will he give this matter due consideration, as every class of the community would be pleased at such an appointment.

    The Budget.
    SIR GEORGE BARTLEY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he can give the House any information as to when the Budget will be introduced.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I am afraid it would be premature to make any statement on the subject.

  NEW BILLS.
    BANKRUPTCY ACT (1883) AMENDMENT HILL.
    "To amend The Bankruptcy Act, 1883," presented by Mr. Brynmor Jones; supported by Mr. M'Kenna, Mr. Price, and Mr. Harry Samuel; to be read a second time upon Friday, 24th April, and to be printed. [Bill 86.]
    FOREIGNERS' MARRIAGES BILL.
    "For the better safeguarding of British subjects in their intermarriage with Foreigners," presented by Mr. Macdona; supported by Mr. Talbot, Mr. Rothschild, Sir Joseph Dimsdale, Mr. Churchill, Lord Hugh Cecil, Captain Norton, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, Mr. Samuel Evans, Dr. Farquharson, Mr. Stuart Samuel, and Mr. Heywood Johnstone; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 87.]
    POOR LAW SUPERANNUATION (IRELAND) BILL.
    "To provide for Superannuation allowances to certain local officers and servants in Ireland, for contributions towards such allowances by such officers and servants, and to make other relative provisions," presented by Mr. Joyce; supported by Sir James Haslett, Mr. O'Malley, Mr. Clancy, Mr. Cogan, and Mr. T. W. Russell; to be read a second time upon Monday 23rd March, and to be printed. [Bill 88.]
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT FRANCHISE AND REPRESENTATION (EXTENSION TO COMPANIES) BILL.
    "For extending Local Government Franchises and Representation to certain Corporations and to Joint Stock and other Companies," presented by Sir Albert Rollit; supported by Sir Fortescue Flannery, Mr. H. C. Richards, Sir William Holland, and Mr. Howard; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 89.]

    SUPPLY (ARMY ESTIMATES).
    Order for Committee read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
    *COLONEL LONG: This Resolution, Sir, raises a question which, I believe, is equal in importance to any, even of the greatest factors which have to be considered in the formation of an efficient Army. There may be the most perfect organisation—on paper; there may be a considerable supply of excellent recruits of a good quality; yet, if the officers and men are not trained in accordance with the requirements of modern war, no army will be able to cope with an opponent so trained, and only after a course of both dangerous and disastrous education in the field will such an army become efficient. Last year we had the Report of a Committee on the training of officers, and a most grave and serious condition of affairs was shown to have existed in the past, and, possibly, even to exist in the present. Many distinguished officers of the highest rank—some of whom, at all events, had been in a position to bring influence to bear on the problem—were unanimous in stating that the junior
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    officers were lamentably wanting in military knowledge, and in the desire to acquire that knowledge, and they added that keenness was out of fashion. It does not seem to have occurred to these distinguished officers that it was the duty of the senior officers to see that those under them were trained to understand and to perform those duties on active service which are the very object of their existence as officers. For, if it was not for the certainty of war from time to time there would be no necessity for an Army at all, and if they themselves had been keen, in all human probability the young officers, too, would have been keen.
    Many of the witnesses urged that there were not sufficient inducements to study; that there was no certainty of more rapid promotion as the result. No doubt hope of advancement provides a great stimulant to work, and ought to be a powerful instrument in the hands of the authorities for obtaining efficiency. But would any private business firm content themselves with keeping hands who did not only not improve, but who were evidently inefficient for the work they were kept to do? Does not a heavy responsibility rest on the officers in command of battalions, etc., to see that junior officers are steadily advancing towards what will mean efficiency in time of war? Does not an equal responsibility rest on generals to see that commanding officers of units under their command clearly recognise and really act up to their responsibility? And, lastly, does not great responsibility rest also with those officers who are in the highest position of our Army administration, to see. that the generals holding command make themselves acquainted with the condition of the forces in their charge, and do not hesitate to use the powers committed to them? Very considerable those powers are; no less than the power, after due report and examination, of checking temporarily or terminating permanently the career, as officers, of those under them. It has always seemed to me that, given three steps in the chain of command and responsibility—say, for argument, those of general, colonel, and captain—if the general finds that the captain is inefficient or faulty, it is the colonel that should be blamed, and even, if necessary,

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    forfeit his position. He should either have made his subordinate efficient or reported that he was hopeless; then long ago the system would have been changed and amended. This is the ordinary chain of responsibility which, from various causes, has in the past become so rusty that nothing short of the grossest inefficiency—discovered, perhaps, by accident—or bad discipline, or personal misconduct, has caused strong measures to be taken.
    I noticed in the evidence given before the Education Committee, a distinguished officer holding a position of influence second perhaps only to that of the Commander-in-Chief, and directly responsible for the training of the Army, stated that under the existing system there was no possibility of the young officers studying, and it was absolutely impossible to find the time for military training. I think this was somewhat of an exaggeration, and that many young officers and senior officers have trained themselves, but he went on to mention that he had been writing much—multiplying paper—for a year or two on the subject, and had tired out two successive Secretaries of State for War. When I read this evidence last year, I could not help thinking that these masses of paper represented a defensive work thrown up by a skilled tactician to protect himself from any objectionable attack which might arise from the report of such a Committee as this on the training of officers. And I could not help thinking also that if he had adopted offensive tactics, such as are said to have been taken by certain gallant sailors when, in despair at the condition of our Navy, they said they would resign their appointments if steps were not taken to remedy the dangerous condition of affairs, he would not, as he tells us in his evidence, have had to spend six years in working at, and two years in writing about, the subject. Is it not possible that this and similar things are what the late Chancellor of the Exchequer meant when he said at Bristol that reforms were wanted as much on the military side as on the civil side of the War Office? I do not say that the paper efforts of the distinguished officer were altogether wasted, because probably they had something to do with
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    the present Secretary of State for War appointing the Committee on Training.
    Whatever may be thought of the military scheme of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the War Office, and the amount of his Estimates, I think every one will agree that he has always been prepared to take the initiative, and he has not feared to face responsibility. I should like to ask what steps he is going to take to enforce a sound chain of responsibility. There may be a Director-General of training, a perfect course of instruction in drill books and regulations, and even in practical work, but it will be useless if it is not brought home to all that they are responsible for the efficiency of those below them, and that their own professional career will suffer if they do not fully recognise that responsibility, even though they may have left the position in which they made the recommendation which proved to be wrong. And this is very important. When an officer gets command of a battalion of infantry, say, which is in bad order, he knows very well that if he takes strong measures it will not only make him unpopular but it may injure his military career. For when the battalion was rotten things may have been quiet and smooth, but the path of peform, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is troublesome and stormy, and he is inclined to "let sleeping dogs lie." But whoever finds himself in that position, as I did once, should feel that he is between Scylla and Charybdis, and should realise that if he will not take the trouble at once it may fall on him at a less opportune moment.
    Now, Sir, one of the great lessons of modern war is that now, more than ever, presence of mind—the power to rapidly sum up the conditions of a moment as they affect a general plan, and to follow up by prompt initiative and a fearless taking of responsibility—are the qualities which make an efficient officer. They are qualities long recognised as necessary in anyone aspiring to be a leader of cavalry or a great general. They are now as necessary in every officer, non-commissioned officer and man; and in future the first object of military training must he to develop those qualities. No doubt some men possess

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    these to a greater degree than others, but they can be developed by training in almost every one, by cultivating powers of observation and insuring a thorough knowledge of principles, with plenty of practice in applying those principles under constantly changing circumstances. The opportunities for such practice, however, have not existed as much as might be wished under the existing system. Even in barracks and in the barrack square, even in the everyday life of a regiment in quarters, habits of taking responsibility, knowledge of the art of how to gain influence over men, and so to lead them, and the knowledge of that theory which must precede practice can be obtained. But the practice necessary, before men will have confidence in themselves and use their powers boldly and confidentially in war time, can only be obtained under conditions somewhat resembling actual warfare.
    In England in the past there have been various units, infantry, cavalry, and artillery, scattered about the country in isolated barracks. In many cases regiments have been broken up into small detachments, and other regiments have been so largely composed of recruits that it has been impossible to get sufficiently trained men on parade, after providing for the innumerable garrison and regimental employments, to give effective instruction to either officers or men. In answer to a question just now, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned that the battalions which went out to South Africa had 500 men ready to go, but one knows that when you come to details 500 dwindle down to a very small number on parade. The lack of sufficient trained soldiers in home battalions for the training and practice of officers, and the unavoidable absorption of all their time in elementary instruction of recruits arises entirely from our system of linked battalions. There was once an ancient people, we are told, whom a tyrant commanded to make bricks, and while he gave them straw they did make bricks; when he gave no straw they made very bad bricks. That has been the condition of the British Army in the past. They had to make practical officers, but in England they had no
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    men to practise with, and, in many cases, no ground to practise on. That is the secret of many regrettable incidents in South Africa; that is the only excuse—I do not know if it is altogether a valid excuse—of commanding officers having allowed men to be promoted who were not thoroughly trained, and the only excuse, a somewhat feeble one, why officers in high positions have failed to bring home by strong measures to commanding officers their individual responsibility when a man under them is promoted.
    It may be said that promotion in the junior ranks has always gone by seniority; this is not absolutely the case, in theory at all events; promotion has been by seniority tempered by rejection. The power to reject has been too much forgotten and neglected. The Secretary of State for War has been endeavouring to supply some straw, for he is enlarging the powers of generals in the matter of training, but what advice and counsel on these matters does he receive from his military experts? How does he propose to apply it so that in battalions full of recruits, officers may constantly apply practically the theories they have acquired by study? I do not say anything specially about the training of the men, because I believe in training the officers thoroughly. You will, given time and opportunity, train the men also; but now that there are so many three-year men, I should like to suggest that although we must keep up to the full every hour of our gymnasium drill, still a great deal of what I may call the ornamental recruit drill should be done away with. We have not the time or money to expend on it. I think that men should be put as soon as possible direct to their musketry course, and their field course, believing as I do that by that means you will have immediately many more men on whom you can reckon. The training of the officers of the auxiliary forces presents some different factors. The Secretary of State for War, in abolishing the Militia Army Reserve, and starting a Militia Reserve; has probably done more for our Militia service than any modern War Minister,

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    for he has prevented their being robbed of all their best men in time of war, and opened out new avenues of hope and ambition to the senior officers of that service. But though many Militia and Volunteer officers have attained high efficiency under the old system, and have proved their worth during the late war, there must be very considerable advance in the training of the auxiliary force officers, if these forces are to be raised to the fullest efficiency of which they are capable. It is a difficult question, and it is necessary to keep always in mind that these officers are not like those in the Regular forces, giving up their whole time to the service, and any scheme to be effectual, and to attract the best men, must work side by side with their ordinary life and professions.
    Probably it will be necessary to give to the officers themselves considerable choice of time and method for obtaining the necessary experience and knowledge, and to judge of their fitness for promotion by the reports of those who instructed them, supplemented by a good practical test, and examination just before promotion. This is a question which, if the Secretary of State can solve it satisfactorily, will go far to make our Militia and Volunteers thoroughly effective in their respective positions. I believe myself in that way it is one of the keys to future economy in military expenditure, because if our Militia and Yeomanry attain to real efficiency, it will be possible to do what I believe could not be safely done now, look to them for a portion of that "striking force" which the nation must possess over and above its naval supremacy if it is to be able to support and protect its commercial interests by means of diplomacy. Many allusions have been made lately to the able letter in The Times, but the public seem to have forgotten the first letter, in which the writer drew attention to the fact that we had a strategical frontier, and drew a line through South Africa, Persia, India and China, pointing out that that was our strategic boundary in those parts. The sea was the base, and when you remembered that no army, no nation, is successful which keeps on the defensive, you will have to reckon that some time
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    or other you may have to push a striking force inland from that line. I can quite understand persons at the Court of Pekin or Persia, for instance, saying "We do not care about Great Britain; we have no Navy they can take away from us, and they have no Army they can bring against us." I beg to move.
    *MR. ARTHUR LEE: In rising to second the Motion of my hon. and gallant friend, I will endeavour to be as brief as possible. My hon. and gallant friend has referred to the recent Report of the Military Education Committee, and having been a member of that Committee, I think I am entitled, to ask the Secretary of State for War to state what he intends to do to remedy the defects in the training of officers and men which were disclosed in the Report of that Committee. The Committee dealt with three main subjects. First, the antecedent general education of the Army candidates; second, the training in the military colleges and universities, and thirdly, with the question of training of officers, after joining the Army, and consequently with the training of the men under them. So far as we can ascertain, the Secretary of State has done nothing whatever with regard to the recommendations under the first head; under the second ho has taken partial, and, so far as it goes, satisfactory action with regard to the military colleges, and, so far as the third series of recommendations is concerned, he has taken no action at all. I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will plead lack of time, but he has had this Report in his hands for a full year, and I think it is time either to accept or repudiate the recommendations of the Committee. What does this Report say? My hon. and gallant friend who moved the Motion has drawn attention to one or two of the more salient recommendations in that Report. I would call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to this—
    "Several causes appear to have combined to bring about this state of things, the gravity of which cannot be exaggerated, From the evidence laid before them, the Committee are driven to conclude that the dominant cause is that the promotion of the young officer is not dependent on the zeal and ability which he may show….
    "Under the existing system the promotion of indolent officers is as rapid as—and may be more rapid than—that of their more industrious

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    comrades, a fact which is a sufficient explanation of the lack of zeal of which so many witnesses complain. Such was the evidence, not only of the majority of witnesses examined before the Committee, but also eighty-seven commanding officers' who were consulted, and whose opinions tend to show that' the professional advancement of the officer depends on many considerations quite apart from his professional merit or military capacity."
    That is a very serious indictment, but the Report goes further and shows that not only have the officers of the Army very little inducement to study their profession seriously, but that the War Office has no means of as certaining whether an officer is efficient or not. All they do is to impose certain ridiculous, perfunctory, and entirely theoretical tests upon him as to his knowledge. The present promotion examinations, of which there are only four during the whole of an officer's career, from Second Lieutenant to Field-Marshal, are wholly illusory and useless to a degree which can only be realised by those who, like myself, have had to go through them, or by those who have studied the Report of the Military Education Committee. I will not wearythe House with a description of these examinations, but the Committee dissected them exhaustively and summed up the tests as follows. Of the first examination the Committee said—
    "The futility of the examination in A and B is notorious."
    Of the second examination they say—
    With regard to the examination in C, D, and G, the Committee are of opinion that theory is unduly exalted at the expense of practice, it being to a large extent a mere paper examination, and a test not of the candidate's real ability, hut of his power to commit to memory and reproduce on paper facts from the text-books. In this respect there has been an actual retrogression in the last few years."
    Then they conclude their Report with this statement—
    "It is useless to expect a spirit of keenness for self-improvement in professional subjects if promotion he accorded to the slothful and unintelligent, if the diligent and quick-witted find that they gain nothing by those qualities, hut are liable to he left behind in the race by those having the good fortune to possess connections and interest.
    "The Committee wish most emphatically to repeat that the only chance of a general improvement in military education—and in the consequent efficiency of the Army—lies in an honest system of promotion by merit, following upon tests conducted in an honest and practical manner, honestly reported on, and duly acted upon by the authorities."
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    Well, Sir, I should like to know what the right hon. Gentleman is going to do about these promotion examinations; which, after all, form the only control at present exercised over the efficiency and the training of the officers of the Army? So much with regard to the training of the individual officer in his theoretical duties; now as regards his practical duties. It is an obvious truism, I think, that the only way in which an officer can become acquainted with his practical duties is by continual practice in the field—of course, I do not necessarily mean the field of battle—and by the actual handling of the troops whom he will have to command in time of war. It cannot be done by the mere reading of text books, by passing paper examinations, or by looking at a "War Game." What is absolutely necessary is continual practice with the section, company, regiment, or Army Corps, which he would have to command in actual warfare: that, and that alone, can fit him for the real business of war. And yet what does the late Adjutant General of the Army, the present Commander of the Second Army Corps, say about the present system? He says—and it is a striking statement to come from an officer in his responsible position:—
    "The present system renders military training' absolutely impossible,' and also prevents the proper training of officers, noncommissioned officers and men. In these statements he is supported by the majority of military witnesses, who state that there is no continuity of instruction in the battalion, and that regimental training is necessarily defective and interrupted. Under the existing system the officer rarely sees the men for whose military efficiency he is supposed to be responsible. They are largely employed in non-military duties, such as waiting in the canteens and regimental institutes, the charge of cricket and tennis grounds, as clerks, orderlies, grooms, etc. Till this can be changed, and some expedient found for relieving troops, who should be undergoing training in their duties as combatants, from such work as above mentioned, the Committee feel that the training of the officer in the art of war must be mainly theoretical, with the inevitable result that in the opening stages of a campaign British troops must incur grave risks of disaster."
    There is no getting away from this damning fact—it is proved over and over again by the evidence before the Committee—that under the existing regimental system the training of both officers and men in a home battalion is an absolute impossibility. To what is this due? It is due primarily and almost entirely to the linked-battalion

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    system. That is a matter I hope to be able to go into on another occasion. I will therefore only remind the House now that, whatever the upholders of the linked-battalion system may say for it, they cannot deny that it reduces the home battalions to a mere "ragged depot," as one of the officers described it before the Committee, and deprives it of almost every quality which goes to make up a fighting unit. I wonder if the House is really aware of the actual condition of the home battalions? Lord Wolseley described them as "squeezed lemons," but that, after all, does imply a certain condition of permanency, if not of very great usefulness. As a matter of fact, however, they are mere military turnstiles, through which recruits pass in an endless procession on their way to the battalions abroad, under conditions which are as little calculated to give young soldiers a proper training, to instil into them any sense of esprit de corps, or to make them feel at home in the Army, as would a few nights in an East-End doss-house. Let me give the House a ease from my own knowledge which will show the House the impossibility of training a regiment under these conditions. In this particular case there are eight captains, four only of whom were with the regiment, three on paper, and one in India.
    *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AVAR (Mr. BRODRICK, Surrey, Guildford): At what date? Is that at the present time?
    *MR. ARTHUR LEE: Not at the present moment. As the right hon. Gentleman himself has said, the present is a transitional period, and it is impossible to draw any reliable lesson from it. This is a recent case, and I shall be happy to give the right hon. Gentleman any details.
    *MR. BRODRICK: I only wanted to know whether it occurred during the war or during a normal period.
    *MR. ARTHUR LEE: This did occur during the war, but the facts I am stating represent, I think, the normal condition. But perhaps I can satisfy the right hon. Gentleman by another case—I have
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    several here—of a crack regiment at Aldershot, which illustrates the normal condition of the battalions at home in peace time. How is the training of such a battalion carried out? In the month of February or March company training commences, and about the same time the battalion is expected to send 300 or 400 men abroad as drafts, with the result that the companies are depleted of every able-bodied man they possess, and start their company training with perhaps 40 men, most of whom are recruits or ineffectives. But company training has to go on, and, when it is nearly finished, a fresh batch of raw recruits come in from the depot. Just about then battalion training commences, and these recruits have to go on with it without knowing anything at all of the company training which preceded it. After about six weeks, just as brigade training commences, another lot of recruits dribble in, and they have to go through brigade training without any knowledge of the company or battalion training. Later in the year the manoeuvres come on, and another batch of recruits filter in and are expected to take their part in the movements of Army Corps without any experience of the previous trainings. This is the system under which the War Office expects an officer to train his regiment and fit his men to meet the enemies of the country. I am guilty of no exaggeration; this is no funny story, but a description of the normal system which exists in the home battalions at Aldershot, our chief military training school, and the head-quarters of the First Army Corps, which is supposed always to be ready at a moment's notice to take the field. But no other system is possible as long as we cling to the ridiculous fetish of the linked battalion system. In India the conditions are entirely different. A battalion there is kept filled up with practically all the ablebodied men that its unfortunate brother, the "squeezed lemon,"at home is able to produce, and these men are available for actual military work. All the fatigues are done by natives, and no ablebodied fighting men are taken away for officers' servants, generals, gardeners, Governors' boatmen, or any other non-military but perhaps more interesting employment. Both officers and men are available for actual military work, and

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    are able to barn their business, with the esult that the regiment becomes an efficient fighting unit.
    What is the remedy for this condition of affairs? The first remedy is the very obvious one of having all fatigues, non-military duties, and odd jobs done by pensioners or reservists, who would be only too glad of the work. This would permit the so-called fighting men to attend to their proper duties. The second necessity is to develop the present Military Manoeuvres Act in order that manoeuvres may be carried out on a proper scale all over the country. I understand, however, that the right hon. Gentleman is doing something in that direction. But the primary and fundamental remedy is to abolish, root and branch, the present linked battalion system. Of course, if you abolish it you will have to put something in its place, and the only reasonable system to put in its place is that of supplying all battalions, whether at home or abroad, with recruits from great central depots, as is done with such marked success in the case of the Guards and Marines. That is a large reform, but until it is carried out the home battalions will not, and never can, in any sense of the word be effective units. The right hon. Gentleman, before he devotes his abilities to the construction of Army Corps, should give his attention to the question of making efficient the battalions and other units which will subsequently form those Army Corps.
    In conclusion, I hope I have made clear to the House what are the chief obstacles in the way of carrying out any efficient training at present, and also indicated, though necessarily very briefly, the chief remedies that should be applied to the existing abuses. As far as we can judge, nothing is being done in these directions. Surely the right hon. Gentleman is not content that the present vicious system should go on, and these abuses remain? At any rate, I do not think he can ignore the forcible and unanimous condemnation of the existing system by the Committee selected and appointed by himself, or the conclusions at which, after long and careful study, they arrived. In my opinion, that Report ought to be either disproved or else
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    accepted and acted upon. I beg to second the Motion.
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'in the opinion of this House, the altered conditions of modern warfare render necessary radical changes in the system of professional training of the officers and men of our Army and Auxiliary Forces, which proved inadequate during the late war' instead thereof."—(Col. Long.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    SIR A. HAYTER: I venture to think that whatever views we hold on either side of the House as to the military training of officers there can be no difference of opinion as to the importance of this subject; and, therefore, I think the House is under a debt of gratitude to the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire for bringing this question before us. Neither do I think it is possible to deny that this is an opportune moment to undertake an examination of this question, because we have just had issued the evidence upon the education and training of officers, in the form of a Blue-book, collected by a Committee presided over by the present Home Secretary, whose able Report has been compiled by the exertions of himself and the Secretary of that Committee. If we read only the opening paragraphs of this important Report we shall see that what we have reaped we have sown, and we shall see that a great deal of the very unsatisfactory condition of military education in this country is owing to the way in which the Education Department of the Army has been starved. If the House will allow me to read the figures they will see that we have for a number of years been gradually reducing the amount granted for military education. In 1890–91, for an Army of 143,000 Regulars, the amount taken for military education was £112.500, and of that the greater part was taken for a regimental schools, and the whole sum spent upon the education of officers and cadets was only £41,000. Coming to 1901–02, for an Army of 209,000 Regulars, the Military Education Vote was £119,000, and out of a total

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    Vote of £30,000,000 we spent only.£40,000 on technical military education for the officers and cadets who are to lead those men in battle, or 15 per cent. of the whole.
    With regard to the expenditure on Army education there is also a reduction upon the amount granted for foreign languages. In former days—speaking of ten years ago—there was £4,000 or £5,000 granted as special prizes for officers to qualify in foreign languages, but that has dropped down now to £550. A greater change still is that we have abolished the military education department which used to be so ably carried on at Winchester House, and which cost £7.242, and we placed in its stead one single officer, under the military secretary, General Grove, at the magnificent salary of £800 a year. Directly General Grove came into office the war commenced in South Africa, and he has stated that he never had time to undertake military education at all. He rejoiced to think that one of the first steps which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State took was to appoint a thoroughly efficient officer such as General Hildyard at the head of the military education, making him responsible for the whole military education of the Army. I am glad to see also that the right hon. Gentleman has taken £6,000 additional to increase the accommodation at Sandhurst and to improve the system, root and branch, which is going on there.
    Now I come to the Report of the Committee, and I would ask the House to consider how very important this statement is. On page 20 the condition of Sandhurst is dealt with, and the Committee report:—
    "The Committee regret to report that the general condition of education at the Royal Military College is far from satisfactory. In the first place the cadets cannot he expected to derive much benefit from Sandhurst when it is clearly estahlished that they have absolutely no inducement to work. This inducement is not afforded by the number of marks necessary to qualify for a commission, nor by the fact that those who fail to reach the low qualifying standard demanded are excluded from the Army. Indeed there is too much reason to fear that even those cadets who fail to attain this standard have been commissioned none the less."
    That is not particularly creditable to Sandhurst, but I am quite certain—
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    and I speak as a former visitor of the military colleges—that the great error we have always made at Sandhurst is that we put a too severe examination on those who enter, whereas we put a very feeble and easy test upon them when they go out. The result is that these cadets have no inducement at Sandhurst to work. They all know that unless they commit some grave offence against discipline, or unless they are exceptionally indolent, they will be able to obtain their commissions; and we have had abundant evidence that if these young officers do not learn their profession at the college they will never learn it afterwards. I hope, from the recent appointments which have been made at Sandhurst, we shall see a complete change of all this. For the last few years the head of Sandhurst College has been looked upon as a sort of easy berth for an old officer, and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman is making an effort to improve matters at Sandhurst. With regard to the professors I wish to quote a word or two from the Report. It states—
    "That if the cadets have no inducement to work at Sandhurst, it is equally clear that the instructors have no inducement to teach. Professors appear to be selected from 7nen who desire to have a quiet billet; they are taken on probation, but of late have never been sent back."
    They are men who wish to retire from active work for a certain time, generally for five years, in order to obtain a berth which will not necessitate their moving their families about from quarter to quarter. They do not drill the cadets or take them into the field and instruct them, and they have no intimate touch with them, and I maintain that that is the very thing which they require. If I may say so, I think there are very serious objections to the mode of teaching which goes on. One of the most useful things a young officer can be taught is to drill bis own squad. At present they are nearly all noncommissioned officers who conduct riding, drilling and gymnastics, and they have no revolver practice, and no drill taught by the officers. The Committee lay stress upon the fact that the education in the riding school should be made equal to what is wanted in the field. I. trust that the new broom put in at Sandhurst by the right hon. Gentleman

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    will bring entirely new methods and new modes of instruction. Another point which I wish to draw the attention of the House to is that there appears to be an unanimous opinion that the University: candidates have provided us with some of the best recruits we have had. I will quote what General Groves says upon this point. He says—
    "The best class of candidates, I think everybody will agree, are the University candidates. We get very good ones from the Militia and Sandhurst, but, taken as a whole, the University candidates are by general acknowledgment the most satisfactory."
    I hope the right hon. Gentleman will do all he can with the authorities at Oxford and Cambridge to secure a more steady and sufficient supply of candidates from the Universities than at present. In the regiment with which I have been connected, the London Rifle Brigade, I had a difficulty in regard to obtaining good, officers, and I put myself in communication with the Universities, and they supplied officers to my regiment for some time with great satisfaction. If the University candidates are allowed to join the Militia regiments or the University Corps they will then obtain sufficient military knowledge to enable them to compete satisfactorily at the examination. After what has been said in this Blue-book and the fact that these young officers have not proved wanting in discipline, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will do all in his power to secure a larger supply of University candidates. I notice that the Committee recommend that Sandhurst should be considerably enlarged. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is now taking anything in this vote for new buildings at Sandhurst, but it would be a very great thing if we had room there for about 650 cadets. The ground there is very favourable, and considerable building might be undertaken there tolerably cheaply, whereas, if the college is to be a success, it would be of very great use to have more accommodation.
    I wish to say one or two words upon the Question of officering the staff. I find that there is a general consensus of opinion that the present system is not satisfactory. I think it would be advisable to form a staff corps, and not send officers from their regiments. My own opinion is that we should do better by making a man a staff officer, and keep
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    him in that position, and let him make his career from the staff instead of seconding him in his regiment, to which he returns. There is also the question of the cavalry expenses. The right hon. Gentleman to-day made a statement with regard to that, but I wish to enlarge upon it, because I think it is of the greatest possible importance that we should not allow what is going on to continue. It has been said that you are obliged to fix a very low standard for candidates because they cannot find men who possess the means to meet the expenditure of the cavalry. Surely it would be a very good thing to summon the cavalry commanding officers and insist that the expenses should be kept within bounds, so that a man having only £200 a year besides his pay might be able to join. I notice that those joining are to receive the gift of the horse, and. there will be less changes in the uniform, and these are indications that the right hon. Gentleman is anxious to do what is necessary in this direction. We must also keep down the regimental drags and polo tournaments, and you must not allow the expenses to be so high that men of £200 a year cannot join cavalry regiments. With regard to the last opinion which the Committee expressed as to the general training, I most heartily agree. I most thoroughly and entirely agree that whatever regulations you make you will never be able to carry them out unless you adopt a system of promotion by merit. You must see that the examinations are honestly and properly carried out, but it rests with the Commander-in-Chief and the right hon. Gentleman to see that all the avenues to the highest posts in the Army are open as in other professions to the men who show industry, ability, and enterprise.
    *MR. BRODRICK: I think we must all admit the general interest of the discussion which my hon. and gallant friend has introduced. Amid the many jailing notes which are heard in this House on the question of military reform I imagine that there is one subject which, at all events, stands as an oasis on which we may all join hands. I am sure that the speeches which have already been heard have tended very much in that direction. Now I cannot approach this subject without expressing my warm

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    thanks, not only to those who have brought the matter forward, but to the Education Committee for their very valuable, prolonged, and most successful labours, and for the Report which they signed. I think anybody who has read that Report must see that, although they may disagree with some individual portions of it, that it has taken a broad and deep view of the whole subject, and put before us a series of propositions with which we must be more or less in accord. I cannot help, in referring to the Committee and thanking its members for their labours, also saying a word about one of the officers mentioned by an hon. Member, Captain Cairnes. I think the last public act in his life was the sending round of the Committee's Report for signature, and I am afraid that his labours on the Committee had much to do with his untimely death. Speaking on questions of education, it is a sad coincidence that only a few days ago there passed away also another officer of great promise, Colonel Henderson, who had taken the greatest possible interest in this subject, who had progressed far on a career of great promise, and whose name, I may say, even at the very moment he was taken ill, we were considering for a high post in connection with education. I am sure those of us who are now dealing with these subjects cannot help feeling sad that these two careers have so early closed, and deep regret at the loss of two men who in this particular line would have been able to show their brilliant talents with great advantage to the nation.
    Looking at this subject of education, I venture to say there is not a single point in a boy's career, from the beginning before he enters the Army up to the time at which he commands a regiment, that his education does not require a more careful consideration and organisation than it has received hitherto. I think that the public schools have done an immense amount to adapt themselves to our more modern requirements with regard to the education of Army candidates, but I think a considerable amount still remains to be done, and I also feel that whatever we may lay down here, whatever the rules the War Office may carry out on the initiative of a Committee, or of this House, we shall not succeed in getting the full support of the educational world, unless we to some
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    extent bring the educational world into concert with us, and into council with regard to these matters. I regard that as being at the outset the most important point with which we can deal. I do not say, nor am I competent to say, how far it is necessary that there should be any considerable change for other purposes, besides that of entrance to the Army, in the old system of classical education. All I can say is that I see in the Report of this Committee, and also in the comments which have been made upon it by those who are well qualified to speak in the educational world, a very considerable wavering as to the desirability of continuing our old system of classical education up to the extent to which it has gone hitherto.
    It is for the reason that I feel, that a new departure for the Army which would so very largely affect the public schools in the country would have a farreaching effect, that I should hesitate myself, even with the admirable advice which may be tendered to me by those associated with me in my Department, to state absolutely a new departure with regard to the syllabus which would be required of Army candidates. But what I propose to do at the outset, and at once, is to support the new Director General of Military Education and Training, Sir Henry Hildyard, whose appointment I think has been universally well received, and who brings to this office not only the best theoretical experience and training, but also the most recent practical experience in the field; we bring to his assistance an advisory board as suggested by the Education Committee. A great deal has been said, and some fun has been poked at me, for referring too much work to committees or boards. I am perfectly immune to those attacks. I have constituted, it is true, three or four committees or boards, and I venture to say that when my successor, however soon or however late, comes into my place he will tell me that the War Office Council, a board established at the instance—or rather which has taken its present form very largely at the instance—of Sir Clinton Dawkins' Committee, and the Medical Advisory Board, have both of them been successful beyond all expectations in forwarding the work of the Department. I quote the Medical

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    Advisory Board because that board is started precisely on the same principle as the Educational Board which we propose to establish, in order to bring the great medical establishments in the country, and the scientific attainments of civilians, into contact with our military problem, and to obtain their advice and support. That is precisely what we desire to do in connection with the education of the Army.
    I propose, therefore, that the Director General of Military Education should for all purposes connected with the examination of candidates before they enter the Army, and with their training before they are commissioned, have a board consisting of the four heads of the military colleges—Woolwich, Sandhurst, the Staff College and the Ordnance College—and that he should be assisted also by two representatives of the Universities, by one selected by the Incorporated Association of Headmasters, one selected by the Headmasters' Conference, and one by the Royal Society, so that we may ensure that scientific attainments are not forgotten, and further, that there should be two nominated members, I think, by the Secretary of State, as was recommended by the Committee. I propose to leave in their hands the settlement of this syllabus of examination. I do not think that I should be expected to give an off-hand opinion, or oven a mature opinion, upon the several minute questions raised by the Committee. When the Committee decided that they would do their best to avoid a smattering of knowledge, as is at present attained by the examination, I think many people, including educationists of importance, would hold that the Committee's own definition that it was not necessary to give definite periods of history, or definite geography in the examination papers, or that the whole subject of English in itself should include both geography and history, might lead to a smattering of knowledge. However this may be, I am sure we should be on firm ground in leaving the entrance examination to be settled by the new Advisory Board, merely providing that the whole examination for Woolwich and Sandhurst for the Army and for the Militia should be held, if possible, in one examination, and that the higher the candidate gets the wider should be his choice of selection as to the branch of the Army he wishes to join.
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    Having got our candidates, I am bound to say that I think we shall require much better military training of them before they are admitted to the Army than has been the case heretofore. I do not wish to say a word on the statement of the Committee, or even on the evidence of prominent officers, as to the deficiencies in the training of our officers as disclosed in the war; still less do I wish to compare them with foreign officers, except to say that some of those who make the most confident comparisons between our officers and foreign officers, to the disadvantage of our own officers, must remember that foreign officers have, as a rule, not been tested in war as our officers have been; that our officers have been tested in very varied forms of warfare, and that, speaking generally, in our small wars we have every reason to be proud of the attainments of our officers. But at the same time there is one abiding fact that we cannot get away from, and that is that before they enter the Army, our officers do not receive the same continuous and varied training as the officers of the Navy, and that, after they take their commissions, they certainly are not called upon, or have not been called upon, to give the immense and minute attention to the profession which is required from officers of the Navy, and which officers of the Navy give with a self-denial as to the leaving of other advantages and other indulgences, which I must say is a marvel to some of us who are accustomed to greater ease in life. I hope I shall not be thought hard if I say that in the opinion of the military authorities one year at Sandhurst shall not be sufficient, and that we shall require two years at Sandhurst, as is already required at Woolwich.
    We shall preserve the main avenues of entrance to the Army as they are at present, but in each case require a higher degree of efficiency and training. With regard to the Sandhurst question I need not say very much. The Committee has made some excellent proposals. Colonel Kitson has adopted practically the whole of the Committee's proposals, with the exception of the development of Sandhurst, which now produces far too small a number of officers, owing to the increase in the Army, but this difficulty can only be remedied by a considerable increase of the buildings. That is a point on which there will be universal unan-

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    imity in this House, with the sole exception of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I am not without hope that I will he able to persuade my right hon. friend to take the matter into pretty early consideration. In the meantime, we have completely remodelled the course at Sandhurst. That course has become a much more practical course. There is far more open-air work; the college has been reorganised in its internal arrangements, and has a new organised battalion under proper officers, a system which appears to be working most admirably. I understand that far more attention is being given both to shooting and riding—matters to which the right hon. Gentleman called attention. But it would be useless for us to arrange for better training at Sandhurst, unless at the close of their career there the officers have some inducement to pass out well. We have already arranged that the Indian cadetships shall be a matter for competition from Sandhurst and that the same rule shall apply to commissions in the Army Service Corps. With regard to the position of other candidates on leaving Sandhurst, we are awaiting representations from Colonel Kitson, because this is a subject which is really so vital to the whole question, and Colonel Kitson and Sir H. Hildyard have so recently been appointed, that we thought it would not do to make precipitate proposals: and, moreover, it would be impossible to apply any proposals precipitately to candidates who entered under an entirely different set of conditions.
    Our determination is that, unless a cadet applies himself at Sandhurst, he will not get his commission in the ordinary course. In addition, we propose that the cadets both at Sandhurst and Woolwich shall go into camp, as those at Woolwich did last year, for at least one month, and perhaps six weeks, in the summer. My belief is that the open-air experience gained at camp was not only appreciated by the cadets, but was warmly supported by the commandant, and well reported on by Sir Evelyn Wood. I have not the least doubt that in the two years at both these institutions the time can easily be spared. As to entrance through the Militia, that has hitherto been regarded as the back-door to the Army, though
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    I am not sure that the statistics would bear out that view. I once went into the statistics as to how many officers on the staff or in command of regiments had gone through Sandhurst and through the Militia; but I found it impossible to get from them any decisive evidence that less good candidates were obtained from the Militia than from Sandhurst. But we are stiffening the requirements at Sandhurst; and, with regard to the Militia, I am clear that if a less severe examination is asked for in the Militia increased military training ought to be demanded. The actual military training at Woolwich and Sandhurst will he very considerable under the new system. Most authorities are agreed that the time between the two trainings of a young man who passes through the Militia into the Line is very difficult to spend properly. We propose to fill in that time by attaching a man to some Line battalion for three or four months in the interval between the two trainings, and that the granting of a commission should be dependent not only on the good report of the commanding Militia officer, but on that of the commanding Line officer as well.
    Another and most important new channel of entrance to the Army is through the Universities. I agree with everything that has fallen from the hon. Gentleman and from my hon. friend who speaks with such knowledge as to the advantage of getting University candi as dates. Personally I may be prejudiced, many people are, in favour of Public School and University training, but I regret the system by which the Army is mainly officered by men who leave the public schools at seventeen, and who lose the last two years, which is the most valuable period in the public school training. That is the period in which they have responsibility, and are looked up to by their schoolfellows. It is also the period of rushing, by cramming, through examinations. By being put into a regiment at. nineteen, or nineteen and a half, young officers are practically allowed after passing through Sandhurst to abandon all further training except in details of military work at the very age when men in the Public Schools and Universities are undergoing the severest application This is to carry the principle of professional as against intellectual training very far indeed, and has led to unfortunate results. Well, I

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    hope the House will not think I am unduly stretching in favour of the University, but I am very anxious to secure for the Army men who have had a Public School and University career, and to enable them to enter the Army on equal terms with the men who have not. We propose that a boy shall complete his period at the public school; and we shall require that before he is twenty he shall have passed the examination for Moderations at Oxford, or some equivalent examination at another University. I have had the greatest possible help from Cambridge University in this matter. The authorities there have taken up this subject in the most vigorous and broad minded spirit, and the other Universities will, I hope, follow this example. Within the next few weeks we propose to confer with the Universities as to the establishment of the new system.
    Before the age of twenty the intending officer must have not only passed this test examination, but must have done six weeks' training with a Line battalion or a Regular unit at Alders hot or elsewhere. That can' easily be done in the long vacation, which lasts for three or four months. Having done this we shall be prepared to give the candidate a provisional commission at the age of twenty, and although he may return to the University he will rank in the Army from the age of twenty, instead of waiting till the end of his University career. He will be required to take honours at the University, and we shall ask the Universities to include in the honours examination two or three military subjects—tactics, military topography, and military history—and to provide proper lectures on those subjects. Any candidate who has passed with the requisite honours, and who has twice done a six weeks of military training during his University career, will be allowed to enter the Army, provided that he enters it before the age of twenty-two, as having been commissioned from the age of twenty. I believe that that concession, which has never been made before, will provide us with the very best possible class of candidate, as it will enable any father to feel that he can give the son who enters the Army the same education as
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    he would have in any civilian profession, and that his time has not been lost.
    Now we come to what has been dwelt on to-day by my hon. and gallant friend—the difficulty of training officers after they have entered the Army.
    *MR. ARTHUR LEE: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to accept the recommendations of the Committee as to increasing the number of commissions to the colonies?
    *MR. BRODRICK: Yes, I hope we shall be able to do so very shortly, but at present we are in a difficulty. We have 700 officers above strength, in view of the demand for officers during the War, and until the normal level has been reached it is difficult to give even the usual number of commissions to the Militia. We propose, therefore, to continue at present the twenty commissions to the colonies, and as soon as possible to raise the number to some extent as recommended in the Report of the Committee.
    MR. HALDANE: Before the right hon. Gentleman passes from this subject may I ask him whether the new system is to be extended to other Universities than Oxford and Cambridge?
    *MR. BRODRICK: Of course the same opportunities will be extended to other Universities. We have not yet been able to confer with them all, but we shall ask them to confer with the Director-General as to the possibility of instituting the sort of course we propose. We have been very anxious to permit the military training of a University candidate to be carried out in the Volunteer corps of his University, but we came to the conclusion that it would be extremely difficult to make any permanent arrangement which would be sufficient training. We must make certain that the University candidate should know something of his military work, as, when he joins his regiment there will be officers junior to him who may have served with the regiment for two years or more. We come now to the most important part of the subject. How are we to secure the efficient and adequate training of officers, having

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    regard to the extreme regimental feeling which forbids that any officer should be placarded as inefficient. The Commander-in-Chief fully recognises the force and truth of the Committee's statements on this subject. At present no sufficient incentive is given to the officer to energise. There are penalties, and one of them which has acted admirably is that practically every officer is provisionally commissioned. If after two years with his regiment a young officer is reported, in writing, by three senior officers as not likely to make an efficient and useful officer, and if that opinion is confirmed by the commanding officer, the commission may be withdrawn. That, I may say, has worked admirably. There have been cases where it has worked rather hardly, and there have been cases where it might have been applied and it has not. But, speaking generally, it has had an admirable effect; and I may say incidentally—though I do not wish to go into this subject—that it entirely absolves the War Office when we take severe measures against those who are guilty of making matters unpleasant for a subaltern when he goes into their regiment, because, if he is not likely to make an efficient officer, there is no difficulty whatever in his senior finding that out, and reporting it without subjecting him to any inconvenience. But after that is done what happens? After these two years have passed there is no power whatever to prevent an inefficient officer from going up, by seniority, side by side with the officer who is giving the whole of his heart and soul to his profession. The officers who study their profession are practically on a par with the officers who do not. Both are equally promoted; both, unless one is a conspicuous failure, have the same amount of leave; both have the same eligibility for staff employment; and both—or rather, perhaps, the officer who energises least, but happens to be popular in society, has often the best opportunity for obtaining the offer of extra-regimental employment on the staff of a Governor or some other functionary, which may take him away from his regiment for a very pleasant visit for five years, while the work of the regiment is falling on the other
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    officer. The Commander-in-Chief feels that the time has come, if possible, to put a stop to this.
    The scheme which has been recently brought before him by the new Director-General, and which has been approved by the Commander-in-Chief, and which we propose to adopt, is this. In each unit an annual course of training has been prescribed, and certain months are devoted to practical field training. At the conclusion of that period there will have been an opportunity for the merit of different officers in the regiment to be weighed. We propose that three senior officers—not merely the colonel, but the colonel assisted by the two next in seniority—should classify their officers who are over one year's service in two classes according to their general efficiency, their power of training and leading men, and the state of their companies or squadrons. And in the case of subalterns we propose to introduce a system allowing a subaltern responsibility for half a company as a captain is for the whole, and a subaltern of cavalry responsibility for a troop as the captain is for a squadron. According to that he will be qualified either as efficient or indifferent. It will be possible also for any commanding officer and his two senior majors to bring before the brigadier the name of any officer of exceptional merit for special and accelerated promotion, and in such a case, which may be rare, a wide knowledge of languages will not be forgotten. The brigadier will be responsible for satisfying himself that this classification is a proper classification. Our motive is not to secure a principle of selection. This may sound absurd, but I believe you will never get selection in the lower ranks of the Army which will really tend to efficient working. If there are four men who are fitted for promotion and No. 3 is a little better than No. 1 and No. 2, you put a slur, and an unmerited slur, on No. 1 and No. 2 by promoting No. 3 in June and his seniors in November below him. Our object is to reject those officers who are not really qualified.
    When there are three or four good officers, the senior of them ought to go up. That is our view. If, on the

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    other hand, there are three or four indifferent officers they will fall into the second category. They will not get promotion; they will not get extra-regimental employment; they will not get the same indulgence leave. It will lie on the colonel and his senior officers to show to the brigadier that officers who are classified as efficient are efficient; and when it comes to the question of the manoeuvres, where a great deal may he learned, the officer conducting the manoeuvres may bring before the brigadier the names of officers who have shown themselves as efficient. I believe these changes will have a wide-reaching effect on the lower ranks of the Army. We propose that the brigadier or general officer in command of an Army Corps shall, by practical examination, test the tactical power of any man in the field who is to be appointed to the command of a unit; and there will be a system of winter study with an examination conducted regimentally, but considerably under the superintendence of an officer from headquarters with military knowledge. We regard the present A and B examinations for promotion as being practically worthless; and we intend to replace them by a more practical test, in the designing and the carrying out of which the general officer commanding an Army corps will be able to appoint an officer from his own staff, and will have the assistance of an officer from headquarters.
    One word about confidential reports. I believe that confidential reports rendered to the War Office are of great use in estimating the value of officers. But I believe there would be a greater use if the colonel was able, or felt himself able, to write more freely of an officer who is sitting by him at the same table. It is an extremely difficult thing to ask a man to report adversely on the man who is to sit either opposite or next to him for the next twelve months and to read out that report to him. At the same time, there is a feeling against asking him to report as it were behind the officer's back. What we propose is that a bad report shall be concurred in by three senior officers, and that the brigadier, or the general commanding the district where there is no brigadier, shall have the necessity of sending for the officer and of explaining to him the
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    points on which amendment is required. The further off you can put the unpleasant necessity of reading out to an officer a report which is made against him, the more certain you are to have confidential reports upon which you can act. Therefore, in the lower ranks of the Army, we hope in future to have a system of promotion which will be a practical one; which will, at the same time, enforce some degree of study, and which will distinctly separate between the active, vigorous, and painstaking officer and the man who means to take his profession slowly, quietly, and inefficiently; and that officer, after two bad reports, after two whole years in which he is found not efficient, will be required to send in his papers.
    I agree very much with what fell from my hon. and gallant friend the Member for Evesham when he said that if you thoroughly train your officers they wilt train their men. My hon. friend the Member for Fareham alluded to a great many subjects which we have heard here on previous occasions, and on which he speaks with great authority. He wants all fatigues to be done by others in order that the numbers in the ranks may be greater. Nobody would more like to see fatigues handed over to others than I should; but every man that you call in means that you are adding to the regiment a very large staff—a staff, say, of 100 men, or whatever it may be; and this, at the moment when we are being asked to reduce expenditure in every direction, would be adding a small separate Army in order to allow the present Army to manoeuvre more freely. I do not believe that that is a proper arrangement. Of course, we shall always have the difficulty that our recruits do not come in at the same time. There will always be that difficulty so long as you have voluntary enlistment, whether you have linked battalions or depots—a system which every soldier of experience objects to, because the training by battalions, though it may not be perfect, is far better than the training at depots. I have seen every soldier of experience who has held office at the War Office—in fact, almost every soldier except Lord Kitchener—and they say, with one accord, that the training by battalion,

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    or regiment is incomparably better than the training at a depot.
    MR. ARTHUR LEE: Very few of those distinguished officers have themselves commanded regiments.
    *MR. BRODRICK: That may be so in some cases, but the fact that none the less their testimony is so strong shows that they are not prejudiced in favour of the training by regiment. But take those who have commanded regiments and they will tell you the same. We cannot in this country obtain the full training we desire, either for our Regular forces or for our Auxiliaries. I hope it will not be imputed to me as neglect of the Auxiliary forces if I do not enter upon that subject now. I fully recognise its importance, and perhaps on a subsequent Motion I shall say something with regard to it. But, so far as the general training of officers of the Army is concerned, I say that we are at one with the object of the Motion of my hon. and gallant friend. There is, I believe, a determination among those responsible for the charge of districts and the commanders of Army Corps, as well as elsewhere, to see that the training of our officers at home in peace, so far as our ground permits and so far as the annual assemblage of units of the different Arms, on which we now insist whether we have manoeuvres or not, shall be conducted on far more practical and efficient lines than has been the case up to now. Our desire is not to penalise, but to provide that healthy competition which exists in so many regiments and which, in our opinion, may be extended to all. I believe this subject is even more vital to the Army than numbers, and it is certainly one which in the past has too much escaped attention.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs): I do not think that in the course of these discussions we are at all likely to have any matter brought before us of greater importance than this, or even of so great importance. Neither do I think that we shall have a Parliamentary conversation—for that is the nature of such a discussion as this—more satisfactory to the general sentiment of the House. We have to thank the Committee which the right hon. Gentleman
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    appointed for this admirable report. We may not agree with every line of the report, but on its main tenor and its principal recommendations I think there is substantial unanimity. There are other circumstances which, I think, we may regard with satisfaction; above all, the appointment of General Hildyard, the officer who has been selected to take the control of the education department. I am not going to enter into all the topics to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. There are only two points on which I wish to say one or two words; but they are, in my opinion, the most important points of the whole subject. The first is this question of the training of officers after they attain the rank of officers and their encouragement to the pursuit of the study of their profession. The House will, perhaps, allow me to read—it was read once before, I think, when not so many Members were present—a passage in this report referring to this subject.
    "The Committee wish most emphatically to repeat that the only chance of a general improvement in military education—and in the consequent efficiency of the Army—lies in an honest system of promotion by merit, following upon tests conducted in an honest and practical manner, honestly reported on, and duly acted upon by the authority. So long as mediocrity is permitted to pass muster, and signal ability to meet with no substantial recognition, it is useless to hope for any valuable results from verbal amendments in the regulations. No examinations, however well planned, either of candidates before entry or of officers after joining, can of themselves make good officers. Nothing but inducements in the shape of certain reward for good work done either in peace or in war, on the staff or in the regiment, can raise the standard of knowledge throughout the commissioned ranks."
    All those who have watched these matters will agree with me when I say that for many years back there has been a want of courage on the part of military officers who administer the Headquarters Staff of the Army in these matters. They have been acting in the penumbra of the old purchase system. That system gave an officer a sort of fee simple of his own commission and of his position in the Army; and it is difficult to get out of the heads of most of the most influential officers still in the Army the idea that there is not some right of that sort. The country was pledged to deal, when abolishing the old

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    system of purchase, with great liberality, as I think, with the pecuniary rights of officers. That further established the idea in men's minds that an officer had a sort of vested interest in his commission, and in his right to remain in his commission and to receive promotion by seniority, unless there was some objection against him. The right hon. Gentleman has shown with considerable elaboration the system by which he thinks that this can be best overcome. I think the plan which he stated was a judicious plan, especially as regards the way in which he proposed to treat subalterns so as not to penalise individuals, but gradually to let it be felt that they were marked as not likely to pursue the career with advantage to themselves or to the service, and thus easily to slip them out of the position in which they found themselves. That I believe to be absolutely essential. Our Army differs from most armies in this, that there are many young men of spirit calculated to make to a certain extent, and up to a certain degree of responsibility, excellent officers, who go into the Army with no intention of pursuing it as a life career, but merely to pass a few of the best years of their lives in the service of their country, with credit to themselves and doing some good for their day and generation. We do not wish to do anything which will hustle young men of that sort out of the service. At the same time we do not want any example which they may set of the comparative indifference to the higher advantages of military learning to have a prejudicial effect on those who are willing to devote earnestness and seriousness to their profession. The right hon. Gentleman has a full appreciation of what I have been stating, and I can only trust that he may be able to overcome the evil.
    Now I pass to the second question to which I wish to call the attention of the House, and there I am not so sure of having in every sense the sympathy of hon. and gallant Members. I turn to the entrance of officers. Are we to treat this question as if it were a mere matter of gleaning from the Public Schools and Universities, and from the Militia, the best young fellows that can be obtained? Is the avenue to the commissioned ranks in the Army to be
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    shut against any but the leisured classes? That is a crucial question. It is a question that may be treated separately, because I recognise the enormous difficulties in the way, and I recognise also that it need not directly affect prejudicially anything that is proposed in this report. Go on in your improvements; improve your methods of obtaining your young men from the Universities and public schools if you like; but I think it would be a monstrous mistake if we were to imply by such a debate as this that it was from those classes of the community, and those classes alone, that we expected to find those who should fill the commissioned ranks of the Army. One thing, of course, which can be done—and it is fundamental—is to reduce expenses. The right hon. Gentleman again is fully alive to that difficulty and has done something to cure it. I am afraid he will have to go still further. In the cavalry the state of things is even worse, because it is not the leisured classes only to whom access has practically been confined in past years, it is the rich classes. I put in a plea for a larger and wider view of the whole question. Besides these avenues to the commissioned ranks of the Army, there should be some means of men rising from the ranks in the Army, or being brought in from the more general mass of the community. Of course, a few commissions are given, as it is said, to the ranks, every year. But what are they? They are mostly commissions either given to young men, still of the leisured class, who have enlisted on purpose to obtain them, or they are given to excellent soldiers to fill certain posts as quartermasters and so forth, not in the regular line of promotion I submit it to the House that when we are at the end of this great war, in which both officers and soldiers have done so well and deserved so well of us, we ought to do something to take advantage of this opportunity and promote the general, personal, direct interest of the mass of the people in the country, not only in the Army at large as an entity, but in the commissioned ranks of the Army. When we are endeavouring by some little additional pay or comfort to get better recruits into the Army, what can we do more likely to contribute to that result than to open to them, to a degree unknown

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    before, access to the commissioned ranks of the Army?
    MAJOR RASCH: I cannot help thinking that part of the curriculum at Sandhurst leaves a great deal more to be desired, and that it should be more practical and less theoretical. I understand that the cadets have to clean their waistbelts whilst their servants clean their rifles. Surely it would be more in accordance with the eternal fitness of things if the men cleaned the waistbelt and the cadet the rifle. I do not know that I quite agree with what has been stated about the University training. If one man goes to the University and serves three years there, and the other is to go into the Army and to South Africa and other places and serves three years there, and at the expiration of that time both men are placed upon the same footing, I think it is putting a premium on University training which is not right and which it does not deserve.
    *MR. BRODRICK: I might explain that the University candidate would have to gain honours at the University before becoming eligible for a commission, and he would have to put two terms at Aldershot in camp.
    MAJOR RASCH: I am very glad to have had the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman. I may, perhaps, be allowed to say a word or two as to the expenses which were alluded to by my hon. friend the Member for Walsall just now. I have always thought it was a scandal and a disgrace that a young fellow should not be able to serve in a cavalry regiment without he has a private income of £500 or £600 a year. The result of such a system is that the sons of country gentlemen, who can shoot and ride, cannot go into the cavalry, whereas the sons of South African millionaires, who are none the worse for that, go into the cavalry, but as they can neither ride nor shoot, are not much use when they get there, The mess expenses ought to be cut down, and no doubt the Government has done a good deal in suggesting that officers may ride a trooper. But it must be understood that that may must be construed as must, otherwise the colonel of the regiment will take very good care he does not. If I might say half-a-dozen
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    words as to the regimental expenses, which are so abnormally high, I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it would not be a bad plan to retire two or three cavalry colonels on half pay when the expenses went above normal. If that were done, they would soon got rid of a good deal of the expense. In my young days in the service we heard a good deal of promotion by seniority tempered with selection, but I always regarded it as stagnation by selection tempered with jobbery. I am entirely in accord with what was said about the employment of reservists. It is a very bad thing in a weak infantry battalion to strike a lot of men off duty to serve as canteen waiters, officers' servants, police, and so on. The same thing appertains to all regiments. There are cavalry regiments in which something like 80 men out of 700 are struck off the strength for these duties. I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman is not able to employ reservists in this connection. If he had been, he would have killed two birds; he would have employed a very deserving class of men, and at the same time would have prevented men from being taken away from their duties, and so better men would be brought into the line.
    *SIR CHARLES DILKE: No one would gather from this debate what are the terms of the Resolution on the Paper, for certainly every Member of the House would have thought, before he heard the debate, that the question of the preliminary education and training of officers would have been out of order on this Resolution. The terms of the Resolution are—
    "To call attention to the professional training of the officers and men of our Regular and Auxiliary Land Forces; and to move, That, in the opinion of this House, the altered conditions of modern warfare render necessary radical changes in the system of professional training of the officers and men of our Army and. Auxiliary Forces, which proved inadequate during the late war."
    And nearly half the debate has turned on the question of whether we are to obtain officers from the Universities. and what is to be the nature of their, not military but general, training before they become officers at all. As the Secretary of State for War has dealt

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    with this during the greater portion of his speech, may I make him this suggestion. Let him beware of trying to obtain from the Universities general University training in the form in which he has accepted University representation, because he will not get it. An honour degree in the third class is a very inferior training for a gentleman to an ordinary degree. I therefore beg the right hon. Gentleman not merely to listen to the University authorities, who are only too eager to swell their numbers, but to take advice of others thoroughly and practically acquainted with the conditions of training. Now let me turn to the Resolution itself. It calls attention to the altered conditions of modern warfare, and insists upon radical changes in the system of professional training of the officers and men which proved inadequate during the late war. Not one word has been said against that assertion by any member of the House, and the presumption therefore is that it is to go uncontradicted in this House. But it is a statement which needs this explanation that those who will be selected for the working of the new system will be those who have been responsible for the working of the old, and all the horrible defects which had been proved to exist in the old form of training of our Army are too likely to continue or creep in again, and we may allow ourselves to be misled by mere words.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State says he agrees with the terrible findings of the report of the Committee on Military Education, but when he comes to quote the findings he gives quite a different interpretation to that which the mover of the Amendment submits to the House. The hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment quoted the report as going to show that under our existing regimental and general military system men who made themselves efficient and worked hard to become good officers were penalised. The suggestion of the Committee was that the system was harming the promotion of these men and penalising them; that though they might be good officers, because they might not have shown the same good fellowship or the same keenness in regi-
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    mental sport they were penalised in their promotion. What has been in the mind of the country is, I am convinced, what has been in the mind of my hon. and gallant friend, and that is the failure, shown in the eyes of the world, as regards the training of our officers and the training of our men in South Africa, and the consequent necessity of changes in that system.
    The Resolution contains some words which might possibly be misunderstood. They are sound, I believe, but I think some one ought to say something about those words. My hon. and gallant friend alludes to the altered conditions of modern warfare, and unless some one says something on that matter, it may be thought that my hon. and gallant friend gives some concurrence to the suggestion that His Majesty's Government could not have foreseen what would happen in South Africa because of the conditions of the war. The sound view of this subject was stated by Moltke as far back as 1866. He pointed out what was the bearing of new conditions of war, as from time to time they were emphasised in his time by improved rifles and improved guns, and as they have been subsequently improved by smokeless powder and quick-firing guns, Moltke's argument was this, and it cannot be controverted, that this rapid and constant improvement in the conditions of warfare and weapons gave a greater advantage to the best trained troops; that it was not the less trained who were put upon an equality with the better trained, but that the better trained got a greater advantage in war. The state of things that existed with regard to our war in South Africa was all foreseen by Moltke as far back as 1865, when he said—
    "All these improvements in firearms have strengthened the defence against the attack, hut the attack always has the advantage, which it must ever retain. In the end, the defender must take the offensive to attain success."
    And then he points out that these improvements are facts of merely local importance, and that they cannot prevent the ultimate defeat of the defending army as a whole; that altered conditions further handicap the side on which the generals, officers and men are less skilled in the art of war. Some have said that the conditions of South Africa are peculiar. To some

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    extent they arc, but I venture to say that no competent observer who has watched and written on this matter, and none of the foreign observers who have written on this matter, in a manner so impartial that they are more than just to our Regular Army and the training of our Army, for a moment ventured to assert that the conditions in South Africa were so peculiarly special that they account for this deficiency in training which the South African War exposed. That war has been very carefully scrutinised by some of the most distinguished authorities—General de Negrier, Captain Founder, Commandant Painvin, and by Colonel von Lindendu, of the Prussian Military Staff. All those authorities, and all authorities who have written on this war assert the positive truth of the terms of this Resolution, that the South African War has shown in the eyes of the whole world the unsatisfactory method of our military training. It has been pointed out by great soldiers who have sat in this House over and over again that in this country there was a complete deficiency in our system of military training, and that military art was discouraged in this country.
    We have discussed in this House such examples of the defective giving of, and carrying out of, orders as those of Spion Kop, Magersfontein, and Sauna's Post. But putting aside all the disasters in which either Militia, Yeomanry, or Colonial levies were concerned, and taking only those which affect the Regular Army, in the first ten months of the war, and apart from those already named, there were eleven disasters which my hon. and gallant friend could assert, taking them one by one, to be the direct result of the defective training of the Army for war. Many of those concerned the cavalry, and the cavalry have been mentioned, though perhaps not sufficiently, in this debate. The Secretary of State for War, in his explanation of the future arrangements for the Army, did not, so far as I understood him, distinguish between infantry and cavalry. I did not understand him to say how far his new system would apply generally to all officers, or how far it would be an infantry system, and how far applicable to the cavalry, or whether, in fact, all the changes were to apply to infantry and cavalry alike. Of all the failures in the South African War, that of the cavalry was the most
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    conspicuous. There is no reason what ever why the men in the cavalry should not be, as I believe they are, as good as the men in the artillery. The way in which the gunners did their duty was marvellous. None of the mistakes made by the artillery are traceable to the action of the men; on that we are all agreed. Put the men in the cavalry are of the same class; much the same reasons as lead men to go as privates into the artillery lead them to go into the cavalry; both branches of the service are extraordinarily popular with recruits, and therefore get the pick of the men. With our long service—for what we call "short service" is really long service, and would be considered very long service by Continental nations—our cavalry ought to be incomparably superior to that of any foreign Power. But can anyone for a moment suggest that they are so? The very first of the long list of disasters in the recent war was a cavalry disaster, as also, in part, was the last of the eleven in the first ten months—I mean the one known as Nitral's Nek, which led to the capture of an infant battalion, and to the censure of the Scots Greys, who were the cavalry in occupation of the neighbouring post. If you will look through these disasters, and at the occasions when we missed success where we ought to have gained it, you will find that foreign observers and those who have written with competent knowledge are justified in contending that our most conspicuous failure was in the mounted branch of our Regular Army. When we come to discuss the Army Corps Scheme we should have to repeat the objections which some of us have urged on former occasions, against believing that you can possibly use Yeomanry after fourteen days training along with Regular troops in an Army Corps. As regards the Regular cavalry itself—I leave aside the training of the auxiliary forces, though it is alluded to in the Motion—no one will deny the accuracy of the statement as to the failure of its training as displayed in the South African War.
    Is it or is it not the case, as in daily conversation some of the most competent and patriotic officers assure us, that even now, against the experience of the war, an officer in the Army, and especially in the cavalry, is handicapped in his career by professional knowledge

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    and attention to his professional duties—that he is not better but worse off for being really a better officer? I cannot but think that we have an example from the very top of the tree of the neglect of the theory which is preached in this House, which ought to prevail, and which we are told is to prevail in the future. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of manoeuvres. What he proposes is most excellent, but there is no use in these manoeuvre's unless the men who do best in them gain by so doing. Is it not notoriously the fact that, after we had fought here for the Manoeuvres Act and had forced the holding of manoeuvres on a large scale, the men who did, not the best, but the worst, were preferred for important commands by the Government which passed that legislation? I know it is not altogether popular to say these things, but they are what we all say privately among ourselves. As long as that practice prevails from the top of the tree, in the Staff, and as according to the assertions made to everyone of us, it does now in the cavalry regiments, I confess that mere paper plans do not convey much conviction to my mind, and while I fully recognise the courage of the Secretary of State for War, and his desire to act upon the principles that he preaches, I say that he will have to back himself by men who are determined at all hazards to carry those principles through, because even now we see that they are not being fully applied.
    COLONEL LOCK WOOD: The right hon. Baronet opposite, in his very interesting speech, alluded to the great number of faults in the education of officers disclosed by the war, and spoke of the necessity of those faults being remedied. But my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War by his speech showed that he was aware of those faults, and devoted the whole of his statement to showing how those faults were to be remedied. Then the right hon. Baronet said that an officer who did the least in the manoeuvres had been given one of the highest commands abroad. Will he tell the House to whom he referred?
    *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I did not say any one officer. I should have pleasure in telling my hon. and gallant friend in private the officers to whom I refer, but I think it is rather painful to mention names in public. I will, however, name them if he presses me.
    COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I will not press for them now. The right hon. Baronet maintained that in the South African War we, and apparently we alone, had been guilty of faults which had held us up to the derision and contempt of all foreign critics. Does he, with his extraordinary knowledge of foreign armies and foreign systems, maintain that the army of any foreign Power in the world, operating at the same distance from its base, would not have committed faults of equal magnitude? He also referred to a matter which belongs, I think, to the by-gone days when I served in the Army, viz., that an officer was the worse off for his professional attainments. Of course I never had any experience of that myself, but I do not think that that accusation can now, especially since the war, be brought against even that Department so full of faults—the War Office. I rather agree with the remark once made by the Secretary of State for War that there is more pressure put upon him by Members of the House of Commons with regard to their friends and relations than by any other class of the community. Many Members will bear me out in saying that they receive from day to day letters from constituents urging them to place their claims before the Secretary of State for War. I think my right hon. friend has shown to-night that he thoroughly grasps the situation, and that he has not only read, but digested, and intends to carry out most of, if not all, the reforms foreshadowed in the remarkable report of the recent inquiry. The hon. Baronet, the Member for Walsall, who went over a large portion of the question of the education of officers at Sandhurst, and in the Army afterwards, appears to be at one with my right hon. friend. He followed very closely the recommendations of the Committee We acknowledge that education to be thoroughly defective and

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    out of consonance with the times; we acknowledge that not only before his entrance to Sandhurst, and during his term in college, but even afterwards, the education of an officer is not fitted to present requirements. The Committee showed it most clearly, and the South African War has impressed it upon us still more.
    My hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Chelmsford Division of Essex has impressed upon the Secretary of State for War how strongly we and many other officers feel with regard to the question of expense. But I believe my right hon. friend has begun to deal with this question, and that already the effects are being felt in the cavalry regiments. There is no doubt that the colonel himself is principally responsible for the extravagances. In those cavalry regiments in which there are men who devote themselves to this question the expenses are invariably below those in regiments differently situated. I like very much the idea of an advisory board to settle the syllabus of the examinations; I think the proposal commended itself to most of those who heard it. When the work done by young sailors is compared with that done by men in a similar position in the Army, it is perfectly true that the Navy shows to great advantage, and I believe it is due to the fact that at a very early stage the sense of responsibility is inculcated in the naval service. We are rapidly approaching that state of things in the Army, and the more the sense of responsibility is impressed on the younger officers of the Army the better the work will be. The question of University candidates and their concessions was very fully gone into by the Secretary of State for War. I believe it to be the ease that the University candidate has shown up extremely well in his Army career. I believe that the advantages offered by the Secretary of State for War to University candidates will be the greatest possible inducement, and will make these candidates an example to the younger men in their regiments. Consequently the Army will reap the advantage of this extended system of education. With regard to education, not only should young officers be enabled to learn foreign languages, but they
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    should also have facilities for acquiring all branches of learning. I think the House on both sides will agree that the Secretary of State for War has shown exceptional ability in grasping the lessons forced upon us by the recent war in South Africa, and if the right hon. Gentleman carries out the plans which he has foreshadowed, I believe he will reap the gratitude, not only of the whole of the Army, but also of the country.
    *MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: We have had, this afternoon, a very interesting and a very satisfactory speech from the Secretary of State for War, but I would point out what the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean has alluded to, that nothing has been said upon a great part of the specific words of the Resolution before the House. The right hon. Baronet showed that nothing had been said as to the training of the officers, and I propose to show that nothing has been said as to the training of men in the Regular forces. Surely in these days of independent fighting, when companies and sections of companies are cut off from their battalions as much depends upon the intelligence of the noncommissioned officer and man as upon the intelligence and the understanding of the commissioned officer. Nothing has been said upon that point by the Secretary of State for War, or any of the speakers who have addressed the House. I should like to emphasise what the right hon. Gentleman said about the cavalry. I have been reading a book describing the operations in South Africa, where it was pointed out that while Botha's scouts were often three days in advance of the main body, the English cavalry were seldom more than one day in advance. Nothing has been said about the increased training of the cavalry, although a good deal has been said as to the education of the officers who will have to lead those men. I should like to ask whether the Secretary of State for War cannot take into consideration the possibility of doing what I think every other country does, namely, provide a school of training for non-commissioned officers.

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    Take the case of France. There, in every branch of the service there is an Ecole Militaire for cavalry, infantry, and all branches of troops, and you have nothing like it in this country, although we have great need for superior noncommissioned officers. What do they do in Germany? There they have ten special schools set aside for the training of non-commissioned officers, who are compelled to declare whether they intend to become non-commissioned officers, and if they do then they receive training in one or other of these special schools; and after they leave the service they have special advantages offered them by the State. The same system applies in Russia. In our country, with a comparatively small number of Regular soldiers, where it is essential that the non-commissioned officers should have great authority over the men, nothing at all is done either to stimulate their zeal to become noncommissioned officers or reward them when they have so become. I know that by the Army Estimates provision is to be made for some slight increase for certain non-commissioned ranks. But what is that? Either by what is offered at the moment or promise in the future there is no real inducement for a man to become a non-commissioned officer because, as a private, he gets almost the same pay as a lance-corporal. I put that as a practical point which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take into consideration.
    One other thing I should like to ask the Financial Secretary to take into consideration. Taking into consideration the respective numbers, the staff colleges abroad are much larger institutions than they are in this country. Abroad these colleges are easy to get into and more difficult to get out of satisfactorily after terminating the training, and what I would suggest is, that the system in vogue in France and Germany should obtain in this country. Commissioned officers recommended by the commanding officer are eligible to go up for the staff college examination in Germany or France. If a person does not pass sufficiently high to enable him to enter the staff college he is still eligible for a staff appointment. On the other hand, the successful candidate, after passing
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    through the staff college, has to serve two years with the staff of the Army. What happens here? An officer goes through the staff college and spends a couple of months with the cavalry and artillery, and after that, unless he happens to be a particularly brilliant man, the staff of the Army knows him no more, and the time and money spent upon him is entirely lost to the country. That is not so in other countries, because an officer who joins the staff college in foreign countries has to pass a certain time with the staff of the Army, and the country gets the benefit of his training.
    Nothing was more noticeable in South Africa than the absence of good officers to do staff duties. In many instances the staff officers were not there, and those who were there did not know properly how to carry out staff as opposed to regimental duties. What is the use of Army Corps or brigades unless you have staff officers? As we exemplified in the South African War there was a great want of good staff officers, and a great many of the mishaps there were due to the inability of the staff officer in charge to grapple properly with his duties. There is one other point which has not been hitherto mentioned, although it may come up on a subsequent occasion. My point is, how are you going to promote the efficiency of the officers of the Militia and Volunteers? There are a great many hon. Gentlemen in this House who command Volunteers, and it is notorious to them that the ordinary officer of the auxiliary forces is not competent to do the duty he would he called upon to do in the field. You could not have your company officers or men fitted to command without considerable training in order to make them fit to be pitted against the troops of any foreign power, and you are relying upon a broken reed if you rely upon the men and officers of auxiliary forces solely to defend us against an attack by foreign troops. I say that you will not be doing your duty if you neglect and leave on one side the efficient training of the auxiliary officers. I hope something will be done by the right hon. Gentleman, either by demanding increased attendance at drill or classes, to bring the standard of the auxiliary officer more up to the standard attained by the Regular officer.
    MR. LLEWELLYN: I desire to remind the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that what he expects from them in the way of training, drill, and so forth, is the very thing which the Volunteers are complaining of. It is important to take note that, in the hon. Member's opinion, what is required now is that they should further train the officers, and with that I cordially agree. With regard to the training of Militia officers, I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman state that the period of compulsory idleness of young gentlemen who have taken the course through the Militia will be more profitably employed by insisting upon further training in addition to the training of their own battalion. I do not think that anyone will complain of that, and I do not think the slightest difficulty will arise when the right hon. Gentleman puts that order into force. There is one point, however, I wish to mention, and it is that, in my opinion, this training should take place as much as possible under the territorial system. I do not know whether officers of greater experience than myself will agree with me when I say that nothing has worked so well, and it is advisable that the territorial system should be carried out. Young officers who do their training first of all with the Militia battalion, and are then attached to Line battalions, look forward, when their promotion comes, to promotion in those Line battalions, with the result that the men know their officers. It has proved to be of great value to have young officers knowing personally the men under their command, and I could tell the right hon. Gentleman and the House many an instance of great importance, and the great good which has resulted from a persona! knowledge of the soldiers serving under such an officer.
    There is this to be remembered, it is the only time they have for the study of foreign languages. A great number of young gentlemen go abroad to perfect themselves in, or to gain a knowledge of, foreign languages, and that is of the greatest importance to themselves and to the service generally. It appears to me that that is the only period in their life they can find for the study of these
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    languages. It may be worthy of consideration whether, as an alternative to being attached to these regiments for four or five months, it should not be considered as an equivalent that they should study foreign languages abroad. I think that is a matter of considerable importance. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition spoke just now vaguely in regard to a change which he would suggest in the selection of the class from which officers should be taken. It is a very old story. I would ask him to state definitely what fault he has to find with the young officers who fought in the South African War. If there is a class who, above all others, should have a clear opinion as to who is to lead, they should be the soldiers themselves. Have they found fault with the men who were selected to lead them? I venture to say, no. The ordinary soldier may not be able to express himself so well as hon. Members in this house, but at the same time he lets those with whom he is associated know whether the men who are placed over him are officers or not. A young officer joins a regiment, and before he is 24 hours in it the soldier knows what class of man he is. The right hon. Gentleman referred to officers being of the leisured or the moneyed class. They are nothing of the sort. They are not men of idle habits, and it cannot be said that the sons of clergymen and professional men, many of whom are in the Army, are members of the moneyed class at all. If there is one class of man who came out well in the recent war it is the young officer, who went to the front very often with little experience at all—perhaps only a month or two in a barrack square. I say that of all those who deserve well of their country none are better deserving than those young and inexperienced officers.
    MR. HALDANE: The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War made a speech which was very interesting so far as it was a recognition of one or two things which had to be done. He put his finger on a number of shortcomings in the educational organisation of our Army, and then he indicated a number of projects which in themselves promise very well.

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    I confess that once or twice I have been carried away with enthusiasm for the schemes of the right hon. Gentleman, but in the end I have not found myself able to take so sanguine a view of the results, and if I express myself, therefore, with reserve about what the present plans are likely to amount to, it is not because I undervalue the zeal with which the right hon. Gentleman has addressed himself to this new scheme, but because I feel that everything depends on the way in which the new scheme is carried out. It is not enough to desire to do something for the Army. You must do something, if you are going to reform the educational status of the Army, with a large conception, and with some definite plan in your mind of how you are going to work at the subsequent stages. The right hon. Gentleman said something which gave me great satisfaction when he said that it is proposed to recognise the University element. This is all to the good, and I gather that the new Universities will have the same chance as Oxford and Cambridge; but it will come to nothing unless you provide some future for the newcomers in the sphere into which you are going to take them. It is important to contrast the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman with that which has been laid down for the Navy. The Navy has now, curiously, rather inverted the procedure of the right hon. Gentleman, and is running away from the public schools, and the old element is setting itself to train its officers from the beginning, taking them as young as twelve-and-a-half: and having been trained they are to specialise in one of three great Departments: the Executive Department, the Marines, and the Engineers. Well, that can be done in the case of the Navy, because you have three different kinds of occupation into which these naval officers can turn, one of which is scientific almost purely, one of which is to a very large degree scientific, and the third of which is of a more general character, but still admits of a special training. But while the right hon. Gentleman's scheme proposes to realise the value of brains for the first time in a definite fashion, so far as the Army is concerned, it seems to me to lack this; one cannot
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    see clearly what special application the officer who comes with the old University training is to make of the peculiar character of mind he will acquire. I quite admit that it is all to the good that he should have a training of that kind. But what occupation are you going to provide for him, what special kind for which his training has fashioned him?
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis): They are interchangeable.
    MR. HALDANE: They are interchangeable, but there will be, nevertheless, room for specialists. I have studied the old scheme as closely as the hon. Member, and in that element there will be abundant room for the highest degree of special knowledge. There is no doubt that there are ample opportunities both in the engineering and artillery branches. I venture to say that there is not a better scientific training to be found in Europe than that which some of our highly trained officers obtain at Woolwich. But there is a want of an organised career in the Army, and there is very little opportunity for an officer to make a practical application of his training afterwards as a specialist. You have got to make your Army more a place for highly educated people. To my mind it is a great misfortune that it is not so at the present time. Even in France an officer has much greater opportunities for applying his special gifts than in this country, and in Germany, where every encouragement is given to that kind of thing, an officer has boundless opportunity of obtaining recognition of the special sort of talent he may possess. Now the position of matters that we have to face is that when a man, however well educated, goes into the Army his opportunities are more contracted than they might otherwise be. How far this state of things can be obviated it is difficult to say. In this country we spend very, much less money, and devote less attention, to what may be called the brains of the Army than is the case in other places. Our staff is not that highly trained, paid, and highly esteemed department of our Army which you find it in the Army of the German Empire. Ear be it from us to follow the pattern of foreign countries in these matters, but I think we might bear in mind that we have a great deal to learn from foreign countries in that respect.

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    Whatever the merit of our young officers I agree with my hon. friend who spoke last that those who went to South Africa showed magnificent courage and devotion. But there is one thing in which they have not been striking in the past, and that is the display of special knowledge of their profession. They have been admirable in point of bravery and in the points of gentlemen, but they have been lacking in those points which ought to make the Army a learned profession so far as the learning of warfare goes. I cannot help feeling that, however good these educational projects may be, they fall short unless you work at the other end, and provide something which people will direct their energies to. It may be that this new departure of the right hon. Gentleman in bringing in a new element from the Universities will he the precursor of a larger attempt at scientific organisation of the Army, but if not, whatever you may do in point of training will not have sufficient motive force to remedy the present evil.
    SIR JAMES FERGUSSON: While the discussion has been sympathetic, and to a great extent appreciative, I do not think I have heard that acknowledgment of the care, labour, and intelligence which my right hon. friend has bestowed upon his scheme which I think we have a right to expect. I have been associated for many years with a number of hon. Members who, like myself, are, from former connection with it, interested in the Army, and who are known as the Service Members' Committee. That Committee has brought many points before the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War and his predecessors on matters that seemed to require amendment, but some of which seemed almost hopeless to accomplish. I may say, however, my right hon. friend has promised to carry out many of these suggestions, and that they have actually been embodied in the very scheme which he has set before us to-night. I think we ought to be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, and to recognise the great industry and intelligence which he has brought to bear on this scheme, and which, I hope, will result in an abundant fulfilment of his and our expectations. Of course, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, many hopeful schemes have been submitted to the House which have
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    borne imperfect fruit, and it is quite right that the representative of the War Department should not be too sanguine in regard to the present. I believe that my right hon. friend is thoroughly in earnest and that he will do his best to perform all that he has promised. I was glad that my right hon. friend opposite entered a caveat against the wholesale condemnation of the young officers of the Army that, as demonstrated in the recent campaign, they were altogether wanting in training. No doubt there were a great many regrettable incidents, and there were many officers who had no training at all; but it is the height of injustice to be indifferent, insensible, or forgetful of the enormous number of cases where the utmost devotion, skill, and readiness were displayed. These officers were utterly careless of their lives in leading their men to victory. I have had the opportunity of conversing with men who had been through the most eventful years of the campaign, and I have been assured that there is no fact that has been more clearly established than the personal devotion of the officers, while the influence exercised over their men was one of the most successful features of the campaign. Men could not be got to face the terrific dangers experienced from an unseen enemy, nor could the officers have gained that control over their men unless the men had confidence in their officers.
    If the debate has been somewhat discursive, I think it has been instructive. The hon. and gallant Member for Evesham referred to the difficulty of training officers on account of the depletion of the depot battalions to fill up the service battalions. I should think that by grouping depot battalions a better school for training officers might be formed. The Report of the Committee, which we have been considering to-night in great measure, is, I think, a sufficient answer to those who have alleged that the scheme submitted by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War was only put forward to gain time. It is of great interest that the position of Director General of Military Education has been restored and so ably filled. It was quite impossible that the Military Secretary to the Commander-in-Chief, who was a hard-worked and responsible individual, could give that attention to military education that is required. It has always struck me that, to a great extent,

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    the Report of the Special Education Committee was the result of pre-conceived opinions. I do not believe, having had the opportunity of seeing something of the Royal Military College, that there was any want of enthusiasm on the part of the instructors to put the cadets through their training, there or in camp, in a perfunctory way. At the same time, such positions should be given to the most active and intelligent officers and not be regarded as comfortable billets for retired officers. I question very much whether in any other Army in Europe, are the officers more completely in touch with their men than in the British Army. A great deal has been said about University training for officers of the Army. It promises very well that the University candidates should only be given a provisional commission until they have been grounded in military knowledge while completing their University education. That is not altogether a new expedient. I recollect that fifty years ago young officers of the Guards after receiving their commissions were allowed leave to finish their University course and take their degrees, and that they did as much military duty as possible during the rest of the year, so that the two branches of their education went on together.
    The classification of officers carried out by a Regimental Board affords encouragement to men who are in earnest in their profession, and every man who is idle or useless is left behind. That is done in the Navy by a different process. I must say one word in reference to what fell from the Leader of the Opposition when he hoped that while we were looking forward to an improved and more instructed class of officers for the Army, it should not be imagined that the Army should only be officered by men of leisure. Now, the difficulty in the British Army of promoting men from the ranks to a commission arises very much from the very low classes from which most of our recruits spring, and, therefore, men of a superior standing ought to be attracted to the ranks. If the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting were consulted it would be found that the recruits secured continue to be contributed in an enormous preponderance by the humbler,
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    the idle, and the unsuccessful classes. The numbers who join the Army as a profession were very few, although there are young men who have not succeeded in obtaining commissions in open competition who enter the ranks, and by steady work and behaviour have obtained commissions and have done exceedingly well afterwards. I am glad to see that my right hon. friend is attracting such men by improved conditions of service, and by offering inducements which will enable soldiers of good character to rise from the ranks to a commission. The British Army in this respect is different from all other Armies, in which every young man must serve and from which there is an ample selection for officers. I cannot for the life of me see why a regimental mess should not be managed; as the mess of a ward room on board a man-of-war is managed. In a ward: room, for 2s. a day, an officer can get as good food as anyone could wish to eat, in addition to the ship rations, which are usually reputed at 1s. a day. Then again expenditure for drags and polo should not be made compulsory on the officers. I hope my hon. and gallant friend will not press; his Motion, because I think we all feel that the Secretary of State for War is taking the most energetic and thorough steps in the direction in which we desire to travel.
    MR. COURTENAY WARNER: I am very glad to. be able to concur in everything the right hon. Baronet has said with regard to the earnestness, care and devotion which, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War takes in developing his scheme. I think everyone on this side of the House is agreed on the one point—that he works as hard as he can; and not only is that felt in this House, but even some of the strongest opponents of his scheme, such as officers of the Army, say that that is the worst of it—that the Secretary of State for War is such a hard-working, straight forward, honest man, that he carries out his schemes whether they are good or bad; and that although they disagree with some of his proposals they give him every credit for his

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    hard work and good intentions. I am sorry to say that this debate has not been as instructive as it ought to have been as regards the point on which it has been raised. It has dealt almost entirely with the education of officers before they get into the Army. That is not the point which has been raised by the Amendment, and it is not a point which anyone would wish to raise, though I hope it will be useful to the Secretary of State for War in shortening proceedings at a later period of the Session. As far as the debate has gone it has not touched on the real requirements desired by this Motion. There are two points involved; one is the education, the training, and the practice of officers after they had joined their regiments; and the other is the training and the exercise of the men. No one, I think, has cavilled at the training given at Sandhurst. Even the training of the militia or other officers was not seriously debated because all the young officers did so very well in the war, and no one had ever said that they did badly. The regimental officers in South Africa did most excellent work. Where the falling off was was in the strategic qualities of the senior officers; who, while they were subalterns and captains were never instructed in the art of war; and consequently when they came to a staff appointment, or to command a regiment or a battalion of cavalry, were deficient in their work, and made very serious blunders.
    I think we have a right to ask that there should be a reconstruction in the teaching and technical work of officers. There is not enough of encouragement, not enough of compulsion for officers to work hard at the technical part of their work. I do not mean the ordinary work of getting the men to follow them in battle, because that is regimental officers' work, in which they were most successful, but I mean strategic and commissariat work; so that when the time comes when officers are appointed to higher positions they will not only be able to take a command but to carry it out in such a way that blunders will not be committed in the field. Something, no doubt, will be learned by the carrying out of manoeuvres; but I am afraid the Secretary of State has a feeling that
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    it is better to employ senior officers and save the expense of putting them on half pay. That is a wrong principle. We should employ the young officer, the man with a future before him. That is the man we have to teach, and I would plead that officers at manoeuvres should be officers who will be wanted in the future, and not officers who are already in command. The officer who should take a division should be a brigadier; and the officer who should take a brigade should be a colonel. We will not be able to teach the old men much now. It is too late, and the time is too short. We must teach the young officer; and I hope that more will be done in future in that direction.
    The other point, which is even still more practical, is the training of the men. At present the training of the men is carried on in a most ridiculous way, as was pointed out by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Fareham. But the hon. and gallant Gentleman omitted to show how ridiculous a certain part of this training is. He told us that large depots would be better than small depots. There I entirely agree with him, and I am quite sure that the linked battalion system must break down as long as it is formed of only two links. If it had six or eight links it might work, but you cannot get on with the present double battalion system. What happens at a small depô t, say a two-battalion depot? There are probably about 200 men there. There is the permanent staff of militia, various noncommissioned officers and men on the strength of the depot, partly for teaching recruits and others on rest after service in India, about twenty or thirty old hands, and, at the outside, about 150 recruits. Some of the latter have been at the depot two or three months, and others only two or three days. Half of them are employed at fatigue, and the others at drill. There are very seldom a sufficient number of men to form a company for company drill, and you will see squads of two or three walking about learning various things, from the goose step up to the use of the rifle. The result is you never get a sufficient number of men together to be able to teach them properly; and the awkward squad and the cleverest of

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    the recruits are all mixed up. I plead for the establishment of larger depots for the training of recruits. Several hon. Members have advocated it, and the light hon. Gentleman who has just spoken referred to the excellent teaching the Guards' recruits receive at Caterham. That is exactly what is required. We should have twenty or thirty recruits every week to work together. If that can be done, as I believe it can be done, by amalgamating the different regiments—you need not change their names—instead of having two linked battalions you would have six or seven; and not only would the recruits be better taught but proper company and mounted infantry drill would be taught at each depot, which is one of the things which is neglected under our present system of training; and there would be a regular company of mounted infantry attached to the different depots. That is one of the most important pieces of training, and the men should be especially trained and kept at it six months at a time. By making the units larger you will also get what has often been talked of as being very necessary for the welfare of the Army, and that is that the troops would know their senior officers as well as the regimental officers. In every foreign army a brigadier is as well known to the men as a colonel is in the English Army. There is no possible means at the present moment of a brigadier being acquainted with his men. At the present moment, according to arrangements which are being made, I understand that there are to be permanent brigadiers, who are to appear at manoeuvres. That will be the only time they will be with the men for any length of time. If we had units of brigades instead of Army Corps we should have a much sounder system by bringing the men into contact with the senior officers; and I hope something will be done in this direction.
    What has been proved is that the training of our officers and men, especially the cavalry, was not satisfactory in the late war. No answer has been given to that, and no answer has been vouchsafed in reply to the question as to what will be done in the future for the training of our officers and men when they get into their regi-
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    ments. There is to be nothing except a few more manoeuvres; but that will not get over the difficulty. Something else will have to be done, and I hope that the debate will be prolonged until we. get some definite answer on the subject. Let me point out another illustration. It is suggested that if the officer is to remain at Sandhurst for two years instead of one ho will no doubt obtain a certain amount of technical training, but the fault is that it does him no good, and when he joins his regiment that technical training is forgotten. What will really happen is that when they get a regiment they will be trained to practice the theories they learned in school, and if their efforts are successful, and they show diligence, they will get promotion in the Service.
    COLONEL SANDYS: I do not propose to trouble the House much upon this subject, but there are a few practical remarks I should like to make upon it. Before doing so I should like to join in the unanimous opinion as to the excellent character of the scheme which the Secretary of State has laid before the House. It is a fitting corollary to the scheme for the organisation of the Army in which the only fault I venture to find is that the Army Corps is too large a unit, and a Division would have been better. But, with one exception, the scheme put forward to-day is a fitting corollary to the other. Perhaps another point with which I am not so agreed is the introduction of the University candidate into the Army. I have a very great respect for the learning of the Universities, but we must not in the training of the mind lose sight of the training of the muscle. After all, what is wanted for the groundwork and starting-point for the efficiency of an officer in the Army? First and foremost is strength; that must be followed by a fair average intelligence and education, and, thirdly, he must be a gentleman. They are the three postulates of an Army officer, and I am a little bit afraid that after the speech of one of the Members for Scotland, in his worship of the high culture of the University candidate, it is possible that chest measurement and biceps development may be lost sight of. A very important question was dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman in his

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    reference to the treatment of the young officer after he had joined a battalion. I have always felt that in our Army we are under a disadvantage to other armies. A young officer having passed a certain examination is passed to a particular regiment. It occasionally happens that a young officer who had satisfied the examiners did not at all satisfy the officers of a particular regiment. They had to admit him into their family—a kind of patriarchal system of which the Colonel is the patriarch—and there were no means of getting rid of him when once enlisted, and therefore some of those scenes arose, which we all deplore, by which officers took means to rid themselves of individuals, which means are not to be defended. The right hon. Gentleman put forward a very right and proper way in which a case of that kind could be dealt with.
    *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. and gallant Member is travelling beyond the range of the question of the training of officers.
    COLONEL SANDYS: Of course it is most advisable that officers should be trained in the duties they have to carry out in the field, and I think, in the wise course proposed at Sandhurst, and also in the careful supervision of the very careful reports made upon officers during their professional career, we have a guarantee that they will not be allowed to be placed in a position of command unless they have shown themselves perfectly fit for it. With reference to the proposition of the Sandhurst cadet going into camp, I think a two years course is not too long to teach him what he has to know before he joins the service. I hope on an early occasion to have an opportunity of saying a good deal on the question of Army organisation.
    *MR. MUNRO FERGUSON (Leith Burghs): With respect to the weeding out of cadets, the right hon. Gentleman can more easily get rid of cadets who are not efficient in their duties as he increases the course at Sandhurst to two years. Another welcome proposal is that Militia officers should be trained for some months in Regular regiments,
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    and a third is that University candidates should be trained with another corps instead of their own. It is very difficult to get rid of an officer once he has been commissioned; it would be much easier to get rid of him before. The hon. and learned Member for Haddington laid stress upon the mind of the Arm) -. One ought to lay stress also upon the outside training in regimental life, and the necessity to provide adequate manoeuvring grounds. I agree with the mover, the seconder, and the supporters of the proposal to maintain a large corps in South Africa, as a training ground, and in the abolition of the present system of linked battalions, if officers are to be trained, and, through them, their men.
    *COLONEL BLUNDELL: I have very great doubt whether University men would make good officers in times of peace; in war they are a very useful addition. They certainly would not improve the discipline of troops. Another point which has not occurred to the Secretary of State is the question of expense. The best officers are the sons of officers; for instance, Sir C. Napier, Lord Wolseley, Lord Roberts. I do not believe in this lengthy preparation. A good many men cannot afford to give university training to their children. I say the first reverse in South Africa was due to an invention, which gave a decisive tactical advantage to the Boers. It was practically the same thing as what occurred in the war of 1866 when, by the introduction of the breech-loader, the Austrians, with an army probably quite as good and quite as large as that of Prussia, was wiped out in seven weeks. That was solely owing to the decisive tactical advantage which the needle-gun gave to Prussia over Austria. In this case the same thing occurred, the modern rifle with the magazine and smokeless powder was able to protect the front—
    *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is now dealing with questions which do not arise on this Motion, which is the training of officers.
    *COLONEL BLUNDELL: Very well, Sir, I will not pursue it. I only wanted to

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    show that we must be very careful not to pull our Army to pieces too much by mistaking the causes of its early reverses.
    Dr. FARQUHARSON: Sir, I rise to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon the action he proposes to take. Those of us who have had anything to do with the training of our young men have complained mostly of the kind of military training which these young fellows have had to go through in order to get into Sandhurst; a system of training which gave rise to cramming which did no good whatever. My right hon. friend has changed all that; pedantic conundrums are not now to be put to the unfortunate victims, and, in addition, he is going to give, if I may call it so, scientific secondary education. The minds of these young men are to be directed more exclusively to their future profession, but even then the idea must come strongly back to our minds that the successful generals are born and not made; they turn up when the appropriate time comes. It is most significant that those who have been most scientifically trained in the staff college are not those who have distinguished themselves in after life. From the Return asked for by the hon. Member for King's Lynn, it appears that those who succeeded in life were not those who had had this expensive training in the staff college. I am glad to hear that the old fashion of close formation, the thin red line and other lines of old military training are to be done away with. Sir William Butler in his life of Sir George Colley, who was one of the greatest soldiers of his day, pointed out how essential it was that we should drop our old system of military training and try and imitate the Boers in this and other points by which the Boers very nearly beat us out of the field on one or two memorable occasions during the late war. My right hon. friend has done good service in altering that training.
    The writer of those remarkable articles which appeared in The Times upon Army Reform said the description of certain senior officers who had been promoted
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    and got considerable kudos in the late war was—
    "Great personal gallantry, intense dread of responsibility, agonising irresolution, utter lack of resource."
    This list of characteristics would serve as a brief personal sketch of more than one senior officer who has gained promotion and distinguished notices in despatches. Thorough going sense of personal responsibility is an essential reform. The only question I want to ask is whether the military authorities are sufficiently alive to the necessity of replacing the old-fashioned and obsolete manoeuvres with manoeuvres of a more practical kind, and more adapted to that condition of warfare which we have to meet in those small wars in which we are from time to time engaged.
    COLONEL PILKINGTON: I am very sorry that the hon. and learned Member for Haddingtonshire did not elaborate sufficiently what he meant by the training of officers after they joined their regiments. It seems to me that that is really the crux of the whole question. It is the opinion in many quarters outside this House that young men are trained well up to the time they join their regiments. They get well instructed in every way, and a great deal of the Secretary of State's scheme provides for that. But what I ask him to consider, and consider very carefully, is whether he cannot remedy what I believe is a very general defect, namely, that after promising young men join their regiments many of them instead of improving, actually deteriorate. Their rate of progress before they join their regiments in military instruction and military matters generally is very much greater than afterwards—in fact, just as light is in contrast to darkness. It requires an exceedingly strong character in a young man to face the kind of influences to which he is subjected after he has joined the regiment. We all know—I think it is an open secret—that in a very great measure the amusements that belong to the military life, such as hunting, and polo, and so on, and other amusements that are not so improving

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    as polo and hunting, come first. A man who can play polo well and can go straight across country, providing that he has the other qualifications of an officer, is a better officer for these accomplishments. But young officers ought to aim at more than that. They ought to improve their military knowledge and give full scope to the worthy ambition to improve in martial science. I do appeal to my right hon. friend to give his first consideration to this matter. Everybody knows it wants doing. From his achievements since he has occupied the post, the duties of which he has discharged in such a splendid manner, I am sure he is capable of remedying this defect, and there is no more worthy matter that can engage his attention. If he can once break up the system of putting pleasure first and duty afterwards among the officers of the Army, he will have accomplished one of the very highest reforms that ever an English War Minister effected. He has faced pretty big seas and I hope he will continue to face those seas successfully, and I only ask him to give this point his careful consideration.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Main Question again proposed:
    Debate arising.

    VOLUNTEER ORGANISATION.
    *MR. LAMBTON: I believe I am in order in calling attention to the Amendment I have placed on the Paper, viz.
    "That it is of high importance that the Volunteer system be further developed, and that the Volunteer organisation throughout the Empire be strengthened."
    Perhaps it will be thought that Motions from this side of the House are getting rather monotonous, but that may be because the Opposition are some what inactive. The Amendment is not moved as a Vote of Censure on the Government or as an attack on the Secretary of State for War. I recognise the good the right hon. Gentleman has done to the Army, and all I ask is that he will consider the question to which the Amendment refers with an open mind. There are several of us on this side, who believe we came here for some purpose other than that of being mere Ministerial
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    puppets for the mechanical endorsement of every official proposition. It is true we came here to support the Government, and we recognise their good intentions, but when we see them marching along a road paved with good intentions, we feel it our duty to help them occasionally by hoisting a danger board, or a signpost pointing to a better way. I take it that this Amendment has been recognised by the Government as something of that sort, because since it appeared on the Paper two interesting announcements have been made by the War Office—first, the appointment of a Royal Com mission to inquire into the state of the auxiliary forces, and secondly, the formation of a motor Volunteer corps, with a specially designed uniform. This shows that the Government is fully alive to the cause for anxiety with regard to the auxiliary forces, and also that they are quite up-to-date and imbued with the newest opinions on military equipment and improvement. I say, therefore, that this Amendment has received the seal of Ministerial approbation, and consequently I am certain it will receive the support of all loyal followers of the Government. The Government has practically blessed this Amendment; the genius of the War Office is hovering over it; I can almost feel the binding of red tape. It may be said that the promise of a Royal Commission renders discussion unnecessary. I think the contrary is the fact, and that it is most necessary that the House should discuss the Volunteer question before the Commission is appointed, because I have noticed that while Commissions are sitting there is usually a muzzling order in force in the House with regard to the discussion of the questions under their consideration: while, in addition, I have been told by a distinguished colonel that if we wait until the Royal Commission reports there will be no Volunteers left to report upon.
    I should not have troubled the House with my views had it not fallen to my lot to do so. I do not pose as an expert. I have served in the Army and in the Volunteers, but I do not claim to have any knowledge worthy of the attention of the House; all I say is that I bring forward the Motion with a sincere desire to do what I can to serve the cause of the Volunteer force. Having served in

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    both the Army and the Volunteers, I may say one thing, and that is that there is an esprit de corps in both which is sometimes not appreciated in high places. There are two facts which ought to be taken into consideration when we come to deal with this question. In the first place very few civilians understand soldiers, and very few soldiers understand Volunteers. I think I shall only need to refer to some of the Army Orders to prove this. This Resolution of mine I think is both concise and comprehensive. It is comprehensive because it includes the Volunteers of the Empire; it is concise because it is intended to lay down three principles—firstly, that this question is an important and urgent matter and ought to be discussed by the House; secondly, that it wants development; and thirdly, that the organisation should be strengthened throughout the Empire. I propose to deal with the first two points, and leave the third to the hon. Member for Gravesend. The first proposition I will deal with is whether this force is an important and urgent matter now. I think if we bear in mind what the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for War said in the debate on the Army Corps Scheme, we must recognise that they attach great importance to this Volunteer system. I think they do take the Volunteers seriously, and I know that the Volunteers take themselves seriously. I believe that that is the view of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War.
    I will now ask the House to consider the Army order passed on the 24th December, 1901, an order which was issued (by the War Office, signed by the Commander-in-Chief, and which had the approbation of the Secretary of State for War. In that order the Volunteers are asked if they wish to be taken seriously. That question is a proof that very few soldiers understand Volunteers. Perhaps I had better read the words of the order, which are as follows—
    "For some years past the Volunteer force has constantly claimed to be seriously accepted as a reliable and organised section of the Army for home defence. It is now determined that the responsibility claimed shall be realised."
    I take it that this order was an unmerited insult to the Volunteer force,
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    and could not conduce to its efficiency. It is an order which cannot increase the efficiency of the Volunteer force, and considering the date at which it is published there is no justification whatever for such an order. The right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister do take the Volunteers seriously. I am quite certain that the country took them seriously a short time ago during the war; and to complain now that they are not taken seriously, and that they require to do something else in order to be taken seriously after what they did in South Africa, is a most extraordinary piece of red tape. It should not be forgotten that the Volunteers sent out 594 officers, 26,082 men, and 6,902 Yeomanry, and thousands were left at home ready to do anything the War Office asked them to do. And after all this they are asked if they wish to be taken seriously! What has the War Office ever done to take them seriously? The lines of invasion in this country are perfectly well known to all military men, but has anything ever been done to put the Volunteers on those lines, or have they ever been afforded facilities for obtaining any practical knowledge of taking up positions on those lines of invasion. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is not a fact that the Volunteers are not even under the. Manoeuvre Act, so that it is impossible for the Volunteers to be afforded such facilities? I have the honour to be the colonel of the Volunteer battalion which went all the way from Northumberland to Salisbury Plain for fourteen days, and they numbered nearly 800 strong, and were paid Army rates. When men are found willing to go out to South Africa in such vast numbers, and when they are found willing to journey from Northumberland to Salisbury Plain, I think they have no right to be asked if they wish to be taken seriously; and therefore I ask this House now. by endorsing the views I have put forward, to show the country that the House of Commons at any rate takes them seriously. I think this should be announced to the country, and do not let us have any more humbug about it. If we do not believe in the Volunteers let us say so; if we do believe in them let the House of Commons tell them so.

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    My next point is the question of the system and its development. At the present time there is a new Army Scheme, which I may call the Army Corps Scheme, which has only lately been born, and is still in swaddling-clothes. We are told on high and grave authority that on the 1st of April this scheme will become more active. Within the last few days something has happened which shows an extraordinary state of things, and that is the appointment of this Royal Commission to inquire into the condition of the Volunteer forces, and this has been appointed two years after the conception of the Army Corps Scheme. Is this not an extraordinary admission? The Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman said that the fulfilment of the scheme depended upon the auxiliary forces. And now, two years after the scheme was initiated, a Royal Commission is appointed to inquire into the very foundation on which the Army Scheme rests. What should we say of the architect who designed a house without first considering his foundation, or of the builder who used stone from a quarry that had never been tested? And yet the right hon. Gentleman has been building away for two years, and is only now beginning to examine his foundations when he ought to be putting on the roof.
    The success of the scheme depends on the stability of the Volunteer force, and I am afraid it can be shown that the Volunteer force, which is one of the corner stones of the structure, is tottering, and will before long collapse. As to the strength of the Volunteers at present, the full establishment of officers is 9,409, and there is a deficiency of 2,147; the establishment of all ranks is 346,000, and there is a deficiency of 96,000. I believe this deficiency is increasing daily, and what it will be in a few months it is very difficult to say. Surely these are very serious figures. The climax, or rather I should say the bathos, of the deficiency will not be reached until 1st November, 1904, when the new regulations as to camp attendance come into force. By that time—I do not wish to exaggerate—it is perfectly impossible to calculate what the deficiency of officers and men may be. There are some authorities who think that the Volunteers will have practically ceased to exist. What is the cause of this diminution? I may be
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    told that it is the reaction after the war, and that there was certain to be a falling off in the recruiting. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the success of his Yeomanry scheme. Although the Volunteer force is decreasing, the new Yeomanry force is increasing in a satisfactory manner. That force has now reached 24,000. I may be told that, it is owing to the new requirements of efficiency; I say that it is because you have altered the whole spirit of the Volunteer Act. This has been done without discussion in this House.
    Under the Act of 1863, which established the Volunteer force, it was laid down that all Orders in Council should be laid before both Houses of Parliament for one month. I have no doubt that has been done, but at a time when the House was unable to discuss the alterations. At all events, it is a fact that the House has not discussed these Orders in Council. I believe it was not possible for officers commanding. Volunteer corps to obtain copies of these Orders in Council in order that they might communicate with Members of Parliament with the view to having a discussion before the alterations were made. The new regulations have placed the Volunteer force entirely at the mercy of the Secretary of State for War. The Secretary of State may now make what orders he pleases as to the efficiency of the Volunteer force. I may say that I am profoundly convinced that the objections of the Volunteer force to the new regulations are not military. The original intention was that the Volunteers should train themselves in their own time, and that they should make themselves as efficient soldiers as they possibly could. What is the case now? You have made training compulsory, and the whole system is altered without reference to Parliament. I believe this compulsory system is doing away with the spirit of the Volunteer force. The Volunteers do not object to do all they can under the new conditions to make themselves efficient, but they say it is physically impossible for them to give the time which the regulations require. The attendances at camps under the new regulations are entirely different from what they were in the past. In the old days camps used to be held generally in holiday time. Now it is a

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    fixed time, and it is absolutely impossible for men to devote time to the Volunteer force when they are dependent on weekly wages. Most of them in the country are working men: they receive nothing during their week in camp. It is impossible for employers in every case to give them leave of absence, but even if employers gave them leave, the men, and more particularly married men, cannot afford to spend a week in camp. Every man is not able to go into camp at the time asked for by the War Office. There are men who are themselves willing to join the Volunteer force, but they receive opposition at home from their wives and families. That is a great deterrent to recruiting. If the attendance in camps and the regulations issued by the War Office are unpopular, the recruiting of the Volunteer force must fail, as it is now failing.
    There is another question of the utmost importance to Volunteers, namely, shooting practice. With most working men this must be done out of their working hours, because the ranges are so far from the places whore they live. They often complain of the hard and fast rules which are now made, and they believe that those regulations might easily be relaxed at the discretion of commanding officers. They are willing to comply with the regulations as far as they can, but in many cases the conditions imposed by the War Office are impossible. May I say a word about the finances of the officers? It is calculated that the deficiency will be so great that in a year's lime, or perhaps a little more, some of the officers will be on the verge of bankruptcy. They are responsible in many cases for the property of their corps, such as drill halls and ranges. This is a great deterrent to Volunteer officers joining the force. Self-respecting men, not millionaires, will not join if they are to be made financially responsible for all those things, the cost of which they cannot calculate. The officers are going, and the men are going. Is it possible to remove the causes? I will make some suggestions to show that I think we could. We ought to abandon compulsory camps or pay the men while they are in camp. Many men who are well trained and good shots can-
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    not go into camp under these fixed regulations. Then the Government should buy more rifle ranges. Many ranges are being closed all over the country. The Government should also supply ammunition more freely and allow greater elasticity in the regulations for class-firing. They expect too much from the recruits and the first and second year men. I think it would be much better to keep these men at short ranges until they become good marksmen. If you get a good marksman let him fire at extended ranges and vanishing targets, but it is wasting ammunition and the time of marksmen to ask them to begin class-firing over again every year from the beginning.
    As to the officers, I will go so far as to say that I would abandon the capitation grant and give a grant per unit. Volunteer officers should not depend on mere numbers to obtain their finances. Under the present system some of the men induced to join are not desirable in the Service, and they would be got rid of under the proposal I make. At the same time you do not want to reduce the numbers, for I think we should have as many men as possible in the Volunteer force, although the War Office does not seem to think so. On 24th December, 1901, the War Office issued an Army order in which they say—
    "It is fully realised that the civil occupation of some Volunteers will not admit of their complying with the minimum conditions necessary for an effective course of military training, and that consequently the force must ultimately lose the services of such men."
    And then the order goes on to say—
    "It is preferable to have a somewhat smaller number of more highly trained officers and men, sufficient to meet all the demands for home defence."
    I do not believe that the proposition laid down in that Army order is sound. The numbers of Volunteers may be reduced and a high efficiency be secured, but will the efficiency of the men who remain be so great as to be worth while? We want as many men as possible to go through the ranks with some training, and if there were a necessity for a call on their services there would be three weeks or a month in which they could be trained before they were summoned into the field. The Reserves which were called up to go to

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    South Africa had to be trained again, and had to spend some time in the performance of military operations before they were sent to the front. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War should extend the excellent proposal he has made of an Advisory Board of Volunteer Officers, and that he should create a special department for the Auxiliary forces.
    It may be said that these proposals which I have hurriedly sketched would be expensive and increase the Estimates. I do not want to see the Estimates increased, and I do not believe that it is really necessary. It must be acknowledged that the Volunteer force is at present a very cheap force. The Volunteers cost £6 2s. 6d. per head; the ordinary soldiers of the Regular Army cost £84 per head; the Militia about £19 6s. per head; and the Yeomanry about £20 8s. per head. Will it not be possible to save on the Regular Army, by reducing it by a certain number of men, sufficient to maintain a larger number of Volunteers than we have at present, and even keep these in a state of efficiency? I will go further. A Royal Commission has been appointed to inquire into the Volunteer force. The Army Corps Scheme has been sanctioned. I ask the Government to go to a logical conclusion and withdraw the Orders in Council to which the Volunteers object. Let them wait till the Royal Commission has reported, and meantime go back to the status quo ante. That will be far better than to go on with these regulations, to which so much objection has been taken. I am sorry to have detained the House so long; but I have endeavoured to show that this is an important matter which demands the attention of Parliament, and that under the original Act of 1863 it was intended by Parliament that the Volunteers should be an entirely voluntary force, and that there should be no compulsion about it. I maintain that compulsion has been introduced, and that it is the duty of this House to remove it. I think it is of the highest importance that we should be unanimous in this matter, because if the House unanimously agrees to urge on the Government some reform of the present system it will show that we really believe in this Volunteer force, and that it is a force well worth keeping, not only be-
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    cause of its material strength, but also because of the spirit it has introduced, and the influence it has exercised on the national character. If we once destroy this system of a purely Volunteer force, and introduce conscription or compulsion, we shall destroy one of the greatest supports this country possesses. Whatever reliance may be placed on our ships, our; men, and our wealth, we should place; still greater reliance on the spirit of the nation, and I say that it is the duty of this House to be the guardian and upholder of the character of our people.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: I do not rise for the purpose of attacking, but rather of appealing to the Government to translate their constantly avowed sympathy with the Volunteer movement into a direct contribution, a direct gift of independence, apart from the Regular Army—a position and a character of their own. I believe that late events have shown that the Government, although they may not have wished it, have confused the principles of dealing with the Volunteers. The Resolution which my hon. friend has moved is that the Volunteer system should be further developed, and that the organisation of Volunteers throughout the Empire should be strengthened. I am aware that those who have taken part in debates on Army reform in this House have been accused of personal feeling. I do not believe that the Government or any Member of this House will believe that in anything I may say on this subject I am actuated by any other feeling than the best interests of the Volunteer system. In relation to this I may say that the Minister for War, on the 8th of March, 1901, said that the main amount of interference with military matters was caused by civilians in the House of Commons itself. The Volunteers are composed of civilians, and the chief political expert in the House of Commons who represents the country at the War Office, is a civilian. I do not think there is anything occult in the working of the Department or in military knowledge; and I do not think that the House would have us hold our peace, if we feel very strongly, lest in the great national seance we should disturb the planchette which brings into existence martial phantoms

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    for the arid plains of Salisbury and the humid heights of Edinburgh Castle. May I ask what is an expert? Is not an expert a man who knows what to do, and how to do it? And in that position the Minister of War is classed. He is the man who should know what to do, and his professional advisers are those who should show him how to do it.
    I have two propositions to make, and they are these—firstly, that the Volunteer system as it stands, and as dealt with by the Minister for War, stands or falls with his Army Corps system; and secondly, that the Volunteer system, as it is, represents a confusion of principles. That confusion of principles I believe to be due to the fact that when the war machine was working at its highest pressure, and at a time when the War Minister and all its officials were intensely applying themselves to the great difficulties of the situation, the War Minister brought in a scheme for the reform of the Regular Army, and added to it the reform of the Volunteer system by attaching it to the Army Corps, which were to serve the country for home defence when needed, to be sent abroad in time of trouble, to garrison India and our coaling stations, and also to provide an expeditionary force. The War Minister saw safety in a larger Army and a fitter Army; and I honestly believe that he tried to give us both. That he has not succeeded I believe to be due to the fact that he was in too great a hurry, and that, as the country was crying out for something new, he thought he had grasped the principle of the thing necessary, and gave it to the country. We asked for reform, and he gave us expansion. We asked for radical treatment of the Army, and he did not give us radical treatment. He did not dig to the roots; he engrafted on the branches; and now I honestly believe we have the same old shrivelled tree, and the same old shrivelled fruit. He has linked the Volunteers up with the Regulars, and I believe that the linking up of the Regulars and Volunteers in the Army Corps will not work; and that the new regulations have not worked is shown, I submit, by the fact that at the present moment a Royal Commission has been appointed to deal with the protests, the anxiety, and the trouble which has been caused in the Volunteer system by these regu-
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    lations. What have they done? They have depleted the force, on the authority of the Minister of War himself, by 35,000 men. Others, who are competent to know, say that they have depleted the force by 65,000 or 70,000 men.
    The Minister of War said on Thursday last the diminution of officers in 1901 was only 1½ per cent. more than in 1896.† He pointed out that the diminution had been going on for twenty years, and I ask, if the War Minister knew that the depletions had been going on for twenty years at the time he brought in [his Army reform scheme why he imposed these regulations? It seems to me that he recognised the fact that the art of efficiency was difficult, and he was determined to make it impossible.
    *MR. BRODRICK: No no.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: I do not say he was determined to make it impossible in the sense that the War Minister accepts my statement. But he imposed regulations which I believe were not sufficiently considered. Those regulations have not proved successful and a Royal Commission. has been appointed. That is a failure, I admit, but I welcome it with a fearful kind of joy. It is designed to kill agitation in the healing springs of time. I believe that is the object in appointing a Royal Commission at the present moment. I do not suggest it is not justifiable under the circumstances, and I wish to say I believe that the appointment of this Royal Commission is intended to deal with the inefficacy of the old regulations and the grievance of the Volunteers. But this appointment proves that the great reform scheme has broken down as far as the Volunteers are concerned. Our Volunteer force is, or is not, a vital part of our defence. If it is not, why include it in the Army reform scheme?
    *MR. BRODRICK: The Volunteer units of the Army Corps have already taken their places, and are pronounced efficient for the purpose of Volunteer officers.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: My argument is not affected by the statement of the War Minister. I shall put forward a proposition, presently, to deal with this point. What is the truth about this? The new regulations have broken down in many quarters. My hon. friend showed that the compulsory camps have not worked, and will not work, successfully; that the musketry regulations are too severe; that we have not ranges sufficiently convenient for practice; that we have not control over them for permanent ranges, nor are they near enough to the Metropolis for the accommodation of metropolitan corps. The chief objectors to the regulations have been, I admit, the Metropolitan Corps, but surely they are a very important factor in the whole scheme of Volunteer organisation. My hon. friend also suggests there is an insufficiency of ammunition, and I do not believe there is a Volunteer officer in the Metropolitan area who will not say the same thing. He cannot bring his men to a proper state of efficiency, particularly those who wish to perfect themselves, with the limited amount of ammunition given at the present time, and if he supplements that amount it has to be paid for either by the commanding officer himself, or those who hold themselves responsible for him. Now, on the point of the education of officers, I will not submit any remark except that I think it will be a step in the right direction if Volunteer officers can attend the garrison classes free. I believe there; are many Volunteer officers who feel it a very difficult matter indeed, whatever their enthusiasm may be, to pay what is practically fifty or sixty guineas for completing their course.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: They have their pay.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: Yes; but they do not receive pay adequate for these classes. But let us suppose that the Royal Commission will set this right. I again repeat that a full scheme of defence represents confusion of principles. Now, we have the six Army Corps; the first at Aldershot; the second at Salisbury; the third in Ireland; and the fourth at Colchester. The Minister of War said these would be under a commander who would lead them in war, and
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    that his object was to centralise responsibility and decentralise administration.
    And, it being half-past Seven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned till This Evening's Sitting.

  EVENING SITTING.

    SUPPLY (ARMY ESTIMATES).
    Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on main question [9th March], "That Mr. SPEAKER do now leave the Chair."
    Main Question again proposed. Debate resumed.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: I am afraid I gave my hon. friend the hon. Baronet the Member for Sheffield an erroneous view of what I meant when I said the education of the Volunteer officers cost as much as £60. I did not mean the ordinary examinations followed by the examinations for drill certificates cost that. I meant, of course, the superior education of the Volunteer officers in the higher branches of their profession represented by what is known as the "2" certificate. I venture to say in connection with that Volunteer officers have made most remarkable progress. Probably 90 per cent. of these certificates are held by Volunteer officers. The natural enthusiasm of Volunteer officers has impelled them, so far as lies in their power, to make themselves more efficient, and I am one of those who believe that if opportunities are opened to them for greater usefulness they will take full advantage of those opportunities. I am afraid it is possible that in the exigencies of debate I may, perhaps, have given the impression that I have not a very great admiration for the energy, enthusiasm, courage and extraordinary industry of my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War. On the contrary, so far as his conduct of the war was concerned; so far as his administrative work is concerned; and his loyalty and patriotism is translated into constant and efficient work during the progress of that great war, I express the deepest admiration and the strongest belief in the efficiency

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    of his labours at the War Office. But the point on which I differ from him is that his Army Corps Scheme includes a responsibility on the part of the Volunteers, and also on the part of the Regulars towards the Volunteers, in the construction of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Army Corps, and so far as the Second Army Corps is concerned the Volunteer district is included for military purposes.
    My point is that in time of war, when a stress is laid on the Regular forces of this country, what will become of the organisation? I should like to know if the Regular forces of the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Army Corps will not be withdrawn from those Army Corps and sent to wherever the scene of action may be abroad. I am afraid my right hon. friend may say that that is possible; but if that is so I wish to ask where is the organisation? The First Lord of the Treasury said in one of his speeches on this question in the House that the Regulars were only intended as a stiffening and support to the Volunteer forces in those Army Corps, but if you take away from those Army Corps the brain, which is the general commanding and the staff, and take away the backbone which, as we are told, is the Regulars, what becomes of the organisation? Is it not reasonable to suppose if war breaks out tomorrow, or next year that Sir Archibald Hunter would be called upon to take command of forces which were sent abroad of the First, Second, and Third Army Corps, and if that is the case what then becomes of the organisation, and staff, and the command of that Army Corps he is supposed to represent? It may be that the reply to these questions I am asking is obvious, but it seems to me that a great number of Members of this House would like a reply. I do not know that I am alone in finding some confusion of principle in this aspect of the case.
    I said in the commencement of my speech there was a question of the confusion of principle, and I suggest when during last session the Military and Yeomanry Bill was brought in, that confusion of principle occurred when the Yeomanry were asked for pay or
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    reward to set themselves apart for service abroad. That was an evasion of the Volunteer principle as most of us understand it. They cease to be Volunteers when they are ear-marked to go abroad in time of war. They then become a kind of Regular force employed only during a portion of their years of service. This question perplexes me. Perhaps I may be a little obtuse, but I represent a constituency which asks these questions, and the responsibility rests with my right hon. friend to give the information. I suggest the ear-marking of the Militia, who are part of the Volunteer home defence Army, for service abroad, whether by contract or for higher pay, makes them cease to be Volunteers in the strict sense of the term, and they become an irregular portion of a Regular force. I would ask my right hon. friend if this is the view of the Government of this country: that you can combine the Regulars and the Volunteers, and at the same time preserve a proper balance of power. My right hon. friend, I assume, thinks we can; I believe we cannot. I believe these forces should be kept distinct, so far as organisation is concerned. I am not so foolish as to suggest that the influence and example of training with the Regular Army would not be an advantage which the Volunteers of this country might well take. My only object is to present this possible solution: Whether our Volunteer service cannot be kept apart for home defence, whilst our Regular Army is kept for garrisoning India and our coaling stations, and for such expeditionary services abroad as occur from time to time. Our expeditionary services during the last seventy years, including one or two great wars, have amounted to ninety, and I submit to the House, whether it is not reasonable to ask the consideration of the Government as to whether they cannot organise the Volunteer forces upon a basis on which they will be responsible for the defence of their country, and they alone. I shall probably be told that that is impossible, that you cannot organise the Volunteer forces for home defence, but while I await the answer of my right hon. friend, I may point out, that in his speech the other day, the First Lord of

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    the Treasury said we would have to depend in time of war for the defence of this country on the citizen Army.
    *MR. BRODRICK: Mainly.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: Mainly on our citizen Army. I submit if that be the case there may come a time when under great stress we shall have to depend wholly on our citizen Army. If we are not prepared for that emergency, what will be the condition of this country? I would like to quote one of my right hon. friend's own speeches in respect to that. In 1901, when he brought in his scheme he said—
    "The first three Army Corps are intended for foreign service, but, of course, for home defence in the first instance."
    What are we to assume from that? By placing these three Army Corps at these particular stations, we shall have them not merely in the best possible positions for the defence of this country, but also in the best possible places for embarkation. The three Army Corps are for foreign service but for homo defence in the first instance; but what is the second instance? It is, I presume, that in the time of a great war it is possible that such may be the exigencies of the war that our Regulars to the last man ought to go abroad. If that be the case it seems to me we have the condition of things I wish to present. We have to trust the home defence to the citizen Army. Our case is that you cannot do this without organising the Volunteers to cover the whole ground of home defence. Cannot we then have a separate department? There is not a Volunteer officer who has not had to lament, at some time or other, the red tape and the constant delay that has occurred in dealing with cases he has had to present to the War Office. Of course I am not blaming my right hon. friend or the officials for this; I believe it to be entirely the fault of the system. I believe the Volunteers of this country should have a separate department of their own, within and under the control of the War Office.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY, Lancashire, Westhoughton): You have got it.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: I do not think the evidence is such that we can say we have got a separate department in the War Office for the Volunteers.
    LORD STANLEY: What is the Inspector General of Auxiliary Forces?
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: An officer who has a duty to perform so far as inspection is concerned, but as to any scheme of organisation within the War Office for the control of the Militia, Yeomanry and Volunteers of this country—my right hon. friend smiles.
    *MR. BRODRICK: I was only smiling at the idea of having two War Offices instead of one.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: No, I am of opinion that one is enough. What I am suggesting is that my right hon. friend shall have none of his authority degraded or depreciated: that the War Office shall still have its place in the administration of this country, but that the officials who have to do the work of the Volunteer forces of tin's country, and what I call the Home Defence Army, should he set apart from top to bottom from the rest of the Department, and I believe this, that if that were done the work the Volunteer officers ask to have done would be done more promptly.
    Now I want to present another aspect of the case. I want to suggest that this confusion of principle to which I have alluded was apparent to my right hon. friend when he attended the Colonial Conference. When my right hon. friend brought down his Army Reform Scheme it was called an Imperial Defence Scheme, and the First Lord of the Treasury speaking of this scheme in this House called it an Imperial Defence Scheme. Within the boundaries of that scheme my right hon. friend had a proposition to make to the colonies, and he made it with his accustomed force and ability. I wonder whether he was surprised at the response to his* proposition at the Colonial Conference. I confess I was not. Two months before the subject was discussed at the Conference in the columns of The Times there appeared several alternatives whereby the colonies might be

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    invited to contribute to the Imperial defence, so far as the Army was concerned. When these alternatives were presented I watched for replies, and I was not disappointed. There came from the Premiers of Australia and Canada, through the columns of The Times, this statement:—
    "This looks like taxation without representation. The colonies will give, and give liberally, or the defence of their own soil, whether it be any naval or military force."
    *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I do not see how the question of whether the colonies should contribute is a matter which rises on the Estimates.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: I bow to your ruling, Sir; I was perhaps going out of my way somewhat, but I was trying to arrive at this point, that the right hon. Gentleman, in making these proposals to the Colonial Conference, was making proposals which were not compatible with the scheme of Imperial Defence. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that there should be drawn from what he called the permanent forces of Canada and Australia one man out of every four to be set apart for Imperial service. I believe the principle is bad, and I believe it can only be applied to the colonies so far as their contributions to the Regular forces of this country are concerned. I likewise believe that if we can have a citizen army in this country, with its own department, and with its proper equipment, with duties which it would understand, of great national responsibility, that there would be no difficulty in getting the colonies to approximate to the standard set up by the military authorities of this country, and you would never need to fear, on the part of the Colonies, an unwillingness to contribute in a form suitable to the democratic spirit of their democratic communities. I submit to this House that these communities are essentially democratic. I submit also that this country in the stress of modern commercial and industrial competition, views with great alarm any increase of the military establishment of the nation. I submit to this House that the people of this country wish to have established
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    the very minimum of forces with the maximum of efficiency, and upon that basis, and upon that basis only, I believe will the people of this country tolerate the heavy military expenditure which even then will be needed. I also believe that if you appeal to the people of this country, on the basis of a citizen Army, which can be and will be made efficient, providing you give it proper opportunities for development, they will contribute freely and will not complain of the taxation that will have to be imposed. Such an army would cost but one-sixth or one seventh that the same number of Regulars would cost. I believe that Lord Wolseley spoke the opinion of this country when he said that the time may come when the safety of the country will depend on the ability of every citizen to use his rifle.
    *MR. BRODRICK: He did not say that we could do without Regulars.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: No; neither do I advocate doing without Regulars, and the right hon. gentleman ought not to place any such interpretation on my remarks. I wish to say, in conclusion, that what I am asking for is the minimum of Regular forces required for our actual commitments abroad, in India and in the colonies, and to provide for the exigencies of expeditionary wars. At the same time I make this appeal to the right hon. Gentleman—to consider whether the growing feeling of this country concerning a citizen Army is not one which he should reckon with and readily foster. I ask him if it is not possible to work on the sentiment of character, and also on the sentiment of ambition, to give a proper national responsibility to the people who, I am sure, would rise to the needs of the situation and give that efficiency which the hon. Gentleman has asked for, but has not been obtained in the past, chiefly through the oppressive nature of the regulations and the lack of encouragement. If my right hon. friend and the Government of this country will only give consideration to this element in the life of this country, it will make for the defence of the soil and for the glory of our arms in times of danger as well as of in times of peace.
    *MR. G. R. SPENCER: I do not rise to weary the House with many remarks, but I wish to say one or two words on a matter which deserves the attention of hon. Members and of the Minister for War. The hon. Member who moved the Resolution used an expression which I think cannot be too strongly insisted upon, viz. that soldiers do not altogether understand the Volunteers and the Volunteer system. In that I entirely concur. I can understand its being very difficult for a soldier to see the Volunteer battalions working, to note the mistakes they make, and at the same time to realise the difficulties under which those battalions are constantly labouring. I think another remark of the hon. Member also deserves great attention at the hands of the authorities of the War Office, viz. that we must not forget the civilian character of the Volunteer force. I quite agree that there must be a certain amount of efficiency demanded from all Volunteer corps throughout the country. But I will ask the War Minister not to ask too much from them, for, however willing they be, they may not be able to pass in the same category as those who have greater facilities for military instruction. We do not wish to be pampered, or treated like spoilt children, but we do wish to feel that our difficulties are appreciated by the War Office. We wish to be treated with some sympathy when we may not come up to the standard which the War Office wishes us to reach. There must be a certain amount of elasticity given to the Volunteer forces, because in the case of some corps the facilities for bringing them up to the requirements of the War Office are very lacking indeed. It is hard for corps in country districts to reach the high level which is arrived at by Metropolitan corps, who have the advantage of drill halls and good shooting facilities. Take the new regulation dealing with musketry. I hope that some modification may be made to meet the conditions which I, for one, know to exist in many places. There is another difficulty, that of getting the men who live at some distance from the range to the range, because they have to lose a day's work, which they do not care to do. It really is disheartening at times, when
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    one is trying to meet the expenditure of country battalions, to feel that there is a cut-and-dried rule by which we are bound, or otherwise we shall be treated as inefficient and fail to get the grant. The question of the provision of ranges is by no means an easy one. I myself have suffered acutely from murdered cows and sheep who wandered aimlessly across the ranges, and although they have died of hydrocephalus I have had to pay for them on the plea that they have been shot.
    I think that the country will regret if the Volunteer forces should be materially diminished or ever become extinct. May I venture to suggest that as our expenses sometimes fall too heavily upon us, some portion of the money which is to be found for the provision of Army Corps might with great advantage be devoted to the Volunteer force. I carefully abstain from indicating which Army Corps might be done away with, but I do think that if the sum of money which it is proposed to devote to one of them were given to the Volunteers, the country would not regret it, and it would certainly obtain as much advantage from the expenditure of it in that direction as it would if it were allowed to go to its original destination. The Volunteer force is a source of great strength to this country, and I hope most sincerely that as time goes on, and when the War Office has had more opportunity of inquiring into its requirements and necessities, we shall be placed in a more favourable position than we now are. I believe that the Inspector General of Auxiliary Forces is animated by a passionate desire to help those forces, but he is debarred doing all he wishes—not only by the lack of money, but by the stress of work at the War Office. I would ask the Minister of War not to make the conditions of the Volunteer service so severe that men, panting to do their best to fulfil the requirements laid down by the War Office, are made to feel that though they have done their utmost they have failed owing to the fact that the War Office seems to be regardless of their interests and ignorant of the necessities that arise from the fact that after all they are civilians.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I thank my hon. friend the Member for South-East Durham for calling attention this afternoon to this matter, and for having gone so fully and thoroughly into the details. The interest of this House, in the Volunteer force must have been fully brought home to those who have been present during the debate, as well as, I hope, to the Leader of the House. Of course, the debate has been deprived of a great deal of interest that would otherwise have attached to it by the announcement of the right hon. Gentleman of his intention to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the question of the auxiliary forces. I venture to hope, in reference to that Commission, that care will be taken that it will not be too large to deal with the matter as thoroughly and as rapidly as possible. It cannot be denied that the Volunteer force have, until recently and during the last forty years, suffered much at the hands of the War Office. The force has triumphed over a great many difficulties. My hon. friends, the mover and seconder of this Resolution, called special attention to the regulations issued at the end of the year 1901. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War will be the first to admit that those regulations were too hastily issued and were insufficiently considered, indeed we have a recognition of this state of affairs in the fact of his appointing a Committee under the active chairmanship of the Financial Secretary for the War Office, and including representatives of the Volunteer force, to go thoroughly and fully into these regulations. Contrary to the custom of many Committees, this Committee has sat de die in diem and it has produced an ad interim Report, upon which the Secretary for War quickly acted, with the result that a great deal of the sting of the new regulations has been taken away. At the same time, nothing can excuse the language in which those regulations was issued. My hon. friend the Member for South-East Durham read an extract which was peculiarly offensive to the Volunteer force. It is incontestable that these regulations have had a very large influence indeed in bringing about the present very serious state of
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    affairs, and I am quite sure that my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War is as much concerned as every Member of this House to see the very large diminution which has lately taken place in the strength of the Volunteer force.
    There may be some quibble as to figures, but it cannot be denied that during the war the numbers of the Volunteer force rose to 306,000, while at the latest date for which returns have been obtained it had fallen to 250,000. My right hon. friend stated that the diminution was largely owing to the cessation of war. I agree that that had something to do with it, but, at the same time, I think it would have been easy to retain the services of a large number of these men. The country, I am sure, was most undesirous of seeing the Volunteer forces reduced because the war had come to an end, but the cessation of war had not nearly as much effect in bringing about this result as the new regulations had. I believe my right hon. friend is anxious to redeem the mistakes which have undoubtedly been committed. He has shown this by appointing a Committee to modify the regulations. Still, some of the remaining regulations are extremely onerous. Compulsory camps are very difficult indeed to carry out. The Commander-in-Chief this year has given very considerable facilities in this matter by allowing camps to be held at different times, and by permitting men to be attached to regiments in the Regular Army. But I think there is a great deal in what has been said as to the necessity for more elasticity in the administration of the Volunteer force. It is quite impossible, for instance, for a country corps to do what strong metropolitan corps are able to accomplish. In the latter the men and officers are constantly together, and there is not the same necessity for them to spend the time in camp which there is in the case of country corps, the companies of which are widely scattered and have very few opportunities of assembling for battalion drill and training.
    There was one matter mentioned by the hon. Member for Gravesend with which) I agree. He referred to the necessity for some Department of the War Office which should have the control of the

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    auxiliary forces. It is quite true that there is a high officer, the Inspector-General of Auxiliary Forces. I have known fifteen or twenty of these during my time, and they have proved as sympathetic as possible towards the force—none more so than the present inspector-General. But he occupies a room exactly the size of the table in front of Mr. Speaker, and in that room ho has, without any organisation, to control a force of Volunteers and Militia numbering upwards of 370,000. Surely an organisation like that is entitled to more accommodation at headquarters. We have often pressed on Secretaries for War that the Volunteers and Militia are entitled to representation on the Headquarter Staff of the Army. However sympathetic the Inspector-General may be it must be remembered that he has never served in the Volunteers. These Inspector-Generals are appointed direct from the Regular Army. It takes them a long time to acquaint themselves with the methods of the Auxiliary forces, and they are frequently removed from their posts before they have accomplished that end. Now the Yeomanry have a direct representative in the person of the Inspector-General of the Imperial Yeomanry. Lord Chesham is a Yeomanry officer, and he has a staff composed of officers drawn from the Imperial Yeomanry. It has been recognised in the case of the Yeomanry, and ought to be recognised in the case of the Militia and Volunteers. But my right hon. friend will say he is going to appoint a Council of Advice.
    *MR. BRODRICK: It has been appointed.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I cannot say that I have seen any thing of it. I do not know who has been appointed, and it has not been very active up to the present. It will no doubt do some good, but the Militia and Volunteers, who contribute so large a number of men to the defensive forces of the country, are entitled to a more adequate representation on the Headquarters Staff of the Army. These are matters which, among other things, I hope will be inquired into by the Royal Commission.
    On the financial question I recognise to the full the generosity of my right
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    hon. friend. He has been extremely generous in camp allowances; I have nothing whatever to complain of on that head, although I should be the first to complain, if necessary, because the responsibility for any deficit will fall on the shoulders of the individual commanding officer. In this connection I must take exception to the observation of my hon. friend the Member for Gravesend that the attachment of Volunteer corps to the Army Corps is not working satisfactorily.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: I said it would not work satisfactorily.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: At any rate it is working satisfactorily. I know personally that the regiment to which I belong is attached to the fourth Army Corps, and that since the war it has been twice out for a fortnight's training, and has had no difficulty as regards money, and very little as regards numbers.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: What I wished to convey was not that the Volunteers would not work with the Regulars in training, but that the organisation would not stand the test in the future.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I have no means of speaking as to the future; perhaps my hon. friend has. I can only say that up to the present we have had no difficulty; the scheme has worked satisfactorily as far as it goes. But I have some fault to find with regard to the selection of Volunteer battalions for the Army Corps. It is entirely dependent on their being able to find a specified number of men in a given fortnight. It is right to have a high standard of efficiency, but how a regiment attains that standard is not a matter of much concern. I do not think the mere fact of being able, by means of a bounty or otherwise, to provide a specified number of men in a given fortnight is an adequate test of the efficiency required. At all events, it presses very heavily on some corps. There is a great difference between corps, and this matter materially augments the difficulty of finding officers. The deficiency of Volunteer officers two

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    or three years ago was 1,200 or 1,300; it is now upwards of 2,000. Considerable numbers of Volunteers are sending in their resignations because they are afraid of the continual calls upon their time and purse. This is a matter to be specially inquired into by the Royal Commission, and it affects both Militia and Volunteers, but especially the latter, with whom it is a very pressing matter.
    On the subject of musketry, fresh regulations have just been issued. I understand from my right hon. friend that he would not issue them until he had ascertained how far they could be carried out by the Volunteers. However, they have been issued, but the Volunteer Corps are to have an option as to carrying them out this year, for which concession they are grateful. But I am told that the regulations will require at least three; or four journeys to the range. That for a Metropolitan Corps is a very serious matter, as it takes up a whole afternoon to go to Bisley, and employers do not like Volunteers to be constantly asking for leave; they get tired of it and say, "You must choose between your employment and belonging to the Volunteers; we want our clerks here during office hours: we are willing to do what we can, but we cannot perpetually be giving leave, and, besides, it is not fair to the other clerks." It is a pity these regulations have been issued without first fully ascertaining how far the Volunteers are able to carry them out. I recognise that my right hon. friend is doing what ho can to provide ranges. Members of this House, irrespective of Party, during the last thirty or forty years have gone to successive Secretaries of State, pointing out how all available land for ranges was being taken up and its price increasing. My right hon. friend is spending a large sum on the acquisition of land for ranges on Plumstead Marshes; the expense will be about £200,000, but if the step had been taken five years ago the land could have been secured for a quarter of the amount.
    *MR. BRODRICK: Not five years ago.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Perhaps not five years ago; make it ten. But this agitation about ranges is not a matter of the last five or ten years. It has been going on for thirty or forty years, but we have never been able to convince the War Office of the paramount necessity of
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    something being done, and the consequence is a greatly increased expenditure of public money.
    The real difficulty, however, with which we have to contend, are the constantly changing regulations. If I were asked off-hand what are the regulations at the present moment for becoming efficient I could not say, and I am certain that neither my right hon. friend nor the Financial Secretary could. Before a man joins the Volunteers he asks what he will have to do, and it is absolutely necessary to have some simple standard. The constantly changing regulations are not only irritating to those who have to candy them out, but by preventing men from coming in, and inducing those who are in to resign, they sap the very life and efficiency of the Volunteers. I hope the necessity of arriving at some clear and definite standard of efficiency will be impressed on the Royal Commission, and that when such a standard has been arrived at it will have some little permanency at any rate. Staff officers were appointed for five years; they are now appointed for three; but every staff officer thinks he must make some little change of detail. My right hon. friend cannot realise the harm done or the difficulty caused by these little changes. Since the new regulations came into force nearly every Volunteer commanding officer has done his best loyally to comply with them. We have no desire to use our voice in this House, or such influence as we possess outside, to induce the War Office to do anything for the Volunteers which they think is unfair to the country. We desire to be brought up to a very high standard of efficiency, and, in order that the observations of the hon. Member for Gravcsend may not be misinterpreted, I do not hesitate to say that the desire of the Volunteers is to work in with the Regular' Army in every possible way. The more we can work in and be trained with the Regular troops the better we should like it. What we strongly object to is being treated by the Regulars as something quite apart from them. Do not let my right hon. friend imagine for a single moment that the Volunteers desire to be treated as something apart from the Regular Army. I do not share the views of some of my hon. friends that the defence of the country could be entrusted entirely to the Volunteer force. The Volunteer force is very active,

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    numerous, energetic, and patriotic, but it undoubtedly wants on special occasions and for active service a stiffening of Regulars. There is not a single Volunteer or Volunteer officer who does not admit this fact. I could not possibly, however much I wanted money for the Volunteers, take that money to the disparagement of the Regular troops.
    With regard to allowances, it must not be thought that the War Office is stingy in these matters. As the subject has been mentioned, the House ought to know that a young officer of Volunteers, on going to a School of Instruction, receives £10 1s. 6d. pay and allowances, either travelling or lodging, but not both, £7 11s., or a total of £17 12s. 6d., from which the Chancellor of the Exchequer deducts 12s. 7d. income tax. I think my right hon. friend might induce the Chancellor of the Exchequer to waive that deduction.
    I hope this Royal Commission will be appointed quickly, that it will be small in the number of its members, and that it will be composed of gentlemen who have sufficient time to give to its deliberations in order that a report may be speedily framed and acted upon. The Prime Minister the other night said—
    "We appeal to the Volunteers as the real force on which we have to depend in ease of emergency."
    On that statement the country is bound to hold the Government to do everything it can to foster "the real force on which we have to depend in case of emergency." The hon. member for South East Durham mentioned the cost of the Volunteers. The cost is only £4 per head per annum. It is true that in the Army Estimates the amount for the force is £1,280,000, but from that you have to deduct £214,000 for the pay of Regular officers who act as adjutants, and Regular non-commissioned officers who act as sergeant instructors, who, if they were not with the Volunteers, would be in the Regular Army.
    *MR. BRODRICK: Oh no.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: However, whether it is £4, £5, or £6 per annum matters very little indeed; it is less than the annual cost even of the clothing of the Regular soldier. My right hon. friend must have been impressed by the fact, that the opinion of the House, which represents the opinion of the country as a
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    whole, is in favour of the Motion of my hon. friend. The attention of hon. Members has been drawn to the letters which have lately appeared in The Times on the problem of the Army. As regards the Auxiliary forces, the letter of 24th February so admirably sums up the whole position that I should like, in conclusion, to read an extract to the House—
    "The sole responsibility of the Auxiliary forces for the defence of the United Kingdom should be clearly recognised. They should have their separate Department in the War Office, and also on the general staff, where they would take over all the mobilisation work which is concerned with home defence. Money should be spent freely in providing them with rifle ranges and other facilities, and an effective Manoeuvres Act should he passed to enable them to receive an adequate training."
    If my right hon. friend will act up to that paragraph the Volunteers and the country will have all they desire, and large numbers of men will return to the force. I would urge him, whatever he does, not to allow his subordinates to be perpetually tinkering with and altering the regulations. Let us march with the spirit of the times; let there be a high standard fixed, but whatever the standard, let us stick to it, at any rate, for a few years. If that is done, every member of the force and the country at large will thank the right hon. Gentleman.
    *MR. MCCRAE: I quite agree with the suggestion that we should cease the absurd practice of continually altering the regulations with regard to the Volunteers. I cannot, however, agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman as to the question of camp allowances. I rise principally to allude to two points. In the first place, I am anxious that the Volunteer force should be further developed, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War will give this question his serious consideration. Those Volunteer Corps which are not chosen for the Field Army Brigades cannot be said to be satisfied with the conditions of grant existing now. The present system is very invidious indeed, especially under the new policy of concentrating outside battalions alongside those Army Corps, having in the same area at the same time members of

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    a battalion who are only serving by the week. Consequently you have the invidious distinction of having practically in the same brigade one battalion receiving 5s. per day able to pay each Volunteer 2s. per day of pay. while within the same brigade there may be a battalion where the men are serving on the seven days system, doing the same work in the same place side by side, and that corps only receives 2s. 6d. per man per day, which is all required towards the expenses of the camp, and consequently they are unable to give their men any gratuity whatever. I think it is only fair, if we ask the Volunteers to sacrifice their work or to sacrifice their yearly holiday in order to give their services, we ought at least to see that the men are not out of pocket. I think the proposition laid before the War Office by the Commanding Officers Association that the battalion selected for the Field Army Brigade should get 6s. per man, and that those battalions which are not selected for the Field Army Brigade should get 4s. per man, is a fair proposal. Out of that sum they could at least give the seven days men 1s. 6d. per day.
    My next point is in regard to the question of Volunteer transport. In the Volunteers there is really no system of transport. I know that individual brigades have organised transport, but the allowances at the present time given make it quite impossible for the Volunteer service to have anything like an efficient transport. The Volunteers at the present time are unable to go anywhere if there was a sudden call for their services at the place of mobilisation. I hope the right hon, Gentleman will give us some indication of what policy the War Office intend to pursue with regard to the transport for Volunteers. We must certainly face a larger expenditure here, but I think that expenditure can be saved on the Regular Army. I remember, in 1897, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said he would challenge the Commander-in-Chief to say whether we were really getting an adequate return for the sum which was being voted to the Army. Whether we got an adequate return then I do not know, but now a much larger sum is to be spent on the Army, and the question is: Are we
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    getting an adequate return for the greatly increased expenditure since that time? And I think the Secretary of State for War will admit that for the money spent on the Volunteers we really do get an adequate and a more than adequate return. I wish also to protest against the new regulations which have been issued, but which are now evidently to be modified. The War Office is always experimenting with the Volunteer force, and I am quite sure that the policy of the new regulations was one which, had it been successful, would have given us very indifferent Regulars, and would really have shattered the Volunteer force.
    There is an impression in various quarters that these new regulations were the result of a deliberate policy to smash up the Volunteer force in order to pave the way for conscription. I disagree with that view altogether, although I think the effect would have been in that direction. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give the House some satisfactory statement with regard to the pay of Volunteers going into camp, and as to what the War Office intend to do with regard to transport. I may be heterodox in my view, but I dissent from the; doctrine that you must get a system of perfection in the Volunteer force. What you want is as near perfection as possible, but above all you want to get as large a number of men as possible to undergo some system of training. If you lay that foundation, and the day of danger should arise, then you will be able to train those men to a greater state of perfection and make them ready for the work that will be before them. The policy of this country should be to have a small Army able to do anything and go anywhere, and leave behind it a very large auxiliary force. I have often stated that I would go so far as to say that every young man in the country capable of bearing arms should undergo a certain amount of military training so as not to interfere with his ordinary avocation, but such as is undergone by the Volunteers; if we did that, and reduced, as we might well reduce, our expenditure on the Regular forces by millions per annum, we should be doing a great service to the country and doing

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    something to put this country in a state of preparedness for any eventuality.
    LORD STANLEY: If ever I had any doubt as to the great desirability of appointing the Commission to inquire into the Auxiliary forces, that doubt would have been dispelled by the speech of the seconder of this Motion, which shows how deepseated are the misconceptions with regard to the Volunteer force. I look to this Commission, which is to be appointed at once and which my right hon. friend is in hopes may report even before the end of the summer, to do two things. The first, which is comparatively easy, is to dispel the misconceptions to which I have referred, and show the great difficulties that exist in dealing with the Volunteer forces; and the other, which I do not envy them, is to endeavour to reconcile and to bring into one scheme the various propositions that are put forward. To-night, from both sides of the House, and even from the same side of the House, we have had diametrically opposite views expressed with regard to the construction and the organisation of the Volunteer force. We have had one hon. Member proposing that the Volunteers should organise themselves, and we have another proposing that there should be practically compulsory Volunteers. All these views must be gone into by a Commission. They cannot possibly be dealt with only by a Departmental Committee, and if they could be discussed they could not be decided across the floor of the House. I do not think people realise how difficult it is to deal with the Volunteer force. I certainly had no idea of it until the meeting of the second Committee upon those regulations. There must be, I think all will admit, a general system both of training and of pay. We must set up a fixed standard as to what is thought necessary for the efficiency of an individual Volunteer. We cannot say that one Volunteer, because he lives in a town, should take part in ten drills, and that another, because he has to walk five miles to the drill, need only therefore do five drills. I do not see how you can say that because one man has to walk a little
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    further than another five drills will be sufficient for him instead of ten.
    As regards pay, there is no doubt that in a great many corps the question of the amount of money given is of very great importance to the individuals in that corps. We certainly do not want to have any distinction in the pay of the Volunteers, to have one class of rich Volunteers and one class of poor, and there is no doubt that that ideal does operate very unequally on many corps. It is all very well to urge elasticity. To whom are we to give the power of exercising that elasticity? We cannot give it to commanding officers of battalions. We have, however, endeavoured in the Second Army Corps to give it to Sir Evelyn Wood, who will make all the arrangements for camps, and will make all the promotions, and we have left matters in his hands as to what will be convenient for the various battalions. That, I hope, will succeed. Again, I hope that we shall meet the wishes of Volunteers with the aid of the Advisory Committee, without whose consideration I hope no regulations in future will be issued to the Volunteer forces. But we must recognise that there is now an entire change in the constitution of the Volunteers as compared with their constitution when they first became a force. It was then composed to a great extent of men who had a certain amount of leisure; and the original idea was that they should train themselves, no fixed rule being laid down as to their drill. That is now completely altered, and a fixed standard of requirement has been laid down. But is it not absolutely necessary that the constitution should be changed if we are to depend in the main, as I believe we shall have to do, on our Volunteer force for the defence of these shores? The whole thing therefore, comes to be a question of pay for the corps, and that, of course, gives rise to the very large question whether we are to alter the constitution of the Volunteers from that of men who give the State something, into that of men to whom by right the State ought to pay a fair day's wage for a fair day's work. I shall not attempt to debate that point, for it must be laid before the-

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    Commission, and it must be judged by those who will be more competent to decide; and it is only after their decision that this House should take into consideration the great change that would undoubtedly come about if we looked upon the Volunteers, instead of a force which gave their time, as one whose time would have to be paid for. The hon. Member says he does not wish camps to be compulsory. I can only judge of compulsory camps and their advisability by the evidence that was given before our Committee on the new regulations, before which there was not one single man, however much he might object to the general regulation that had been put forward, who did not say that in his opinion it was absolutely necessary that these men should go into camp.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: They said it would be better for them, but not necessary.
    LORD STANLEY: I think that going into camp must be looked upon as a necessity, if they are to be considered as the main portion of our Home defence. The question of the diminution of men is not one that to my mind is so very alarming, for I believe it to be only passing and temporary. I know an instance of a battalion in which, of the men who resigned, over 70 per cent. came back again when the commanding officer told them that the new conditions imposed were less exacting than those they had voluntarily accepted in previous years.
    *MR. MACRAE: That was after the new regulations were modified.
    LORD STANLEY: Certainly. I look upon the question of the diminution of the men as being a temporary and passing misfortune, but I do look upon the diminution of officers as being very serious indeed, and I undoubtedly think that that is, to a great extent, due to the financial burdens that are put upon them. The question of the debts of the various Volunteer regiments is. in some
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    I cases, very alarming to those who have to take them over. They have always been so, and therefore the question must come up before this Commission if in any way we desire to relieve those officers, not entirely, but to see how we can in any way assist them in bearing a burden which they have undertaken voluntarily, and which was due in its entirety to zeal for the corps which they commanded. The various suggestions which have been made by hon. Members are really so contradictory that one hardly knows whether one ought to deal with them at all. In the first place the seconder of the Motion said that my right hon. friend's Army Corps system stood or fell with the Volunteers that were included in these forces.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: I said that the Army Corps stood or fell by the Volunteer system included in it.
    LORD STANLEY: That was exactly what I thought I said, namely; that the Army Corps system stood or fell by the success of the Volunteers included in this scheme. If that is so, the Army Corps have no fear of further attack from my hon. friend, because the Army Corps Volunteers have been an unqualified success, for we have been able to get the men without the slightest difficulty.
    *SIR GILBERT PARKER: My point was this. In time of war your Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Army Corps organisation would not stand, because the Regulars attached to these corps would naturally be sent abroad in an exigency, and therefore the brain and the organisation would be taken away.
    LORD STANLEY: It is not contemplated that the troops of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Army Corps would ever be sent abroad. It is contemplated that the staffs of these Army Corps shall, whatever happens, remain in this country for its protection, and that the forces they command—Regulars, Volunteers, and Militia—in time of peace, shall remain

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    under their command in time of war for the defence of the country. The hon. Member says that no Volunteer is drawn for the place he is to be employed in in case of invasion. What does he mean by that? Does he know that for every single place that is to be defended by the Volunteers, the Volunteers are told off for those places, and that the defence guns will be manned to a great extent by the men of the Volunteer artillery? Of course there are some corps unallotted, and these corps would be used wherever the emergency required their services; but to say that no Volunteer is to train for the place he will be employed in is an inaccurate idea of the organisation that at present exists. The hon. Member wants apparently to divorce the Volunteers from the Regulars, to keep them apart, as something peculiar to themselves. My hon. friend behind me contradicted that at once. He is a practical Volunteer, and the expression of opinion which he has given is he'd by everybody, namely, that the more you can bring the Volunteers and the Regulars together the better it is for both. These forces have been coming together more and more every year, and no cause has contributed more to this result than the attachment of the Volunteer companies to the Regular forces in South Africa.
    This Commission, when it sits, will have another and difficult duty to perform. I think it will have to say whether in any circumstances—and it is a debatable point—you are to put a limit to the Volunteer forces; that is to say, whether you are not to lay down one of two propositions: either unlimited numbers and not so much efficiency to be asked from them; or whether you think it would be better for the country to have a less force and greater efficiency; whether you should say to a district where you do not want in time of mobilisation a certain class of troops that no effort should be made to raise them, and thereby crush out the Volunteer movement. I wish that any word of mine could dispel the idea that the Volunteer force, so far as the War Office is concerned, is held in contempt. I have not heard a word there from those responsible for the management of the Army indicating that they look down in any way on the Auxiliary forces. On
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    the contrary, I think they are trying to show how they can improve their efficiency, bring them more in touch with the Regular forces, and fit them for that place in our defences which has been allotted to them. Criticism ought not to be confused with condemnation. To criticise a force is surely not to condemn it. I would ask those who are inclined to take that view whether it is fair to the Volunteer force as a whole that you should praise them, with perhaps lavish praise, or whether you should not be allowed to make criticism, as you must do on certain battalions that are bad, without being held to sneer at the force, and condemn it as a whole. I would only add that until we receive the Report of this Commission any recommendation made by an hon. Member interested in the Volunteer force with regard to the regulations will meet with the most sympathetic reception from the Committee which has now been formed to advise the Secretary of State on the administration of the Auxiliary forces, and on whose advice I feel confident that my right hon. friend will always act.
    MR. PARKER SMITH: I think that all interested in the Volunteer force will have been most glad to hear the announcement of a Royal Commission to inquire into all questions regarding it. All we can hope is that the reference will be sufficiently wide to cover all matters concerning the force, and also that the Commission will contain a full representation of men actually acquainted with the work of the Volunteers—men who have served in command of regiments and who in that way have a real knowledge of the very different circumstances of the Volunteers in different parts of the country. No one can accuse the noble Lord of insufficient appreciation of the position of the Volunteers, but I hope this Commission will be able to inquire whether the cast iron rigidity of the standard he wishes to lay down is right for the different classes of Volunteers, or whether it is not possible to establish a much wider choice of alternatives according to the different circumstances of different corps. Without waiting for the Royal Commission and its inquiry there are several

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    points which are pressing very much upon the Volunteers, and which I hope I may be allowed to bring before the Secretary of State to-night. One of the smaller points is in regard to the artillery. The Prime Minister the other day, I understood, told us that the Volunteer artillery had now been supplied with breech-loading guns. That is a premature announcement certainly as regards the Artillery Volunteers with whom I am acquainted. I would very much like to ask the Secretary of State whether there is any real prospect of the Volunteers being supplied with breech-loading field guns instead of the obsolete muzzle loading sixteen-pounders they have at present.
    Then the question of shooting is one which is very pressing upon the Volunteers at present, not so much from the point of view of my hon. friend in regard to ranges, so far as the Volunteers with whom I am acquainted are concerned. Ranges are more easy to get hold of in Scotland, though there we certainly want many more. We want ranges where men can go and fire at short range, and where they can get that full familiarity with the rifle which is really wanted rather than the power to hit things 1,000 yards off. What we want is a greater supply of ammunition for the men to use, in order to get acquainted with the rifle. It is absurd to imagine a man can get the use of his rifle with any familiarity or skill on the mere number of rounds that he requires for class firing. You can get a great many Volunteers to take real pleasure and interest in shooting when they can get their ammunition cheap. To most of them the expense of the railway ticket to the range is quite enough. If you make them pay full price for ammunition it becomes prohibitive to the greater part of them. What you want is to induce them to take a greater interest in shooting, and to spend afternoon after afternoon in getting accustomed to the rifle, and to be able to use it freely means to allow them an ample supply of ammunition at a cheap rate. I believe the strictness of the regulations has been made on account of the misuse of the rounds. I believe it would be very easy to lay down regulations whereby this difficulty would be obviated. At any rate, I think
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    it is far more important to let the man who shoots have the use of his weapon, rather than that the supply should be restricted because of the possibility of the misuse of a few rounds through being sold at a profit.
    In regard to what is really the question pressing on Volunteer regiments now, namely, compulsory camps, I think it is not fully realised how entirely different are the circumstances of different regiments. The hon. Member opposite pointed to one difference—the grant of 5s. to some regiments and 2s. 6d. to others. To some regimen's that will make all the difference. There are many regiments composed of artizans and labourers where the question whether you can give a man a small pay makes all the difference whether you can get a sufficient number to go into camp every year or not. Many regiments are perfectly satisfied with the present arrangement. With other regiments a small increase in the allowance per man would make things right for them. There are other regiments where the circumstances of the ordinary private are different. Where you have men in the position of artizans and labourers, it is usually a question of money, but where the ranks are fill with men from business, clerks in counting houses or banks, it is perfectly impossible for them to get away in sufficient numbers to go into camp. One or two of the smartest regiments I could name in Glasgow are of that kind. It is not a question of paying the men a half grant—5s. or 10s. would not make the least difference. The thing is simply impossible for them owing to the circumstance that they cannot get away. A bank cannot allow a quarter of its clerks to go away for a week. It can only allow a few of them to go. I think the noble Lord laid down the principle that it was impossible to consider the different circumstances of regiments, and that you must have some general standard. I do not think you want any Procrustean rule of that kind. You must have alternative if you are going to keep up the strength of the Volunteer force. It is most valuable that the men who become officers should first serve in the ranks. A man serves in the ranks of one regiment and then takes a commis-

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    sion in another; but it will be most difficult to maintain the requisite number of officers if this rule for compulsory camp attendance is insisted on. In regard to such matters as these there ought to be discretion vested in the general in command of a district as to whether some alternative in the way of efficiency in shooting, or other conditions, shall be substituted for compulsory camp service. I am exceedingly glad that the whole of these questions are going to be submitted to a Royal Commission, from whose work I have the utmost expectation.
    COLONEL PILKINGTON: I am rather sorry that a Royal Commission is going to consider questions affecting the Volunteer force. I suppose that Commission will produce a report in about two years. During those two years what is to be the progress, or the decline, of the Volunteer force? I do not agree altogether with the speeches of my hon. friends the mover and seconder of this Motion. It seems to me that their speeches really contemplated a radical alteration in the constitution of the Volunteer force. I believe that the Volunteer force is far stronger than it was, except in numbers. The numbers have gone down 35,000, but chat was only to be expected after the war was over. One thing that takes the heart out of the Volunteer force is the luke-warmness in dealing with shooting and ranges. These matters ought to be dealt with in a wholesale manner. There is no use whatever in having Volunteer battalions and not having ranges. My own battalion thirty or forty years ago had a range next to its own doors, and now it has to go seven or eight miles away. That is going to be taken away, and the only range in Lancashire will be the Altcar range.
    All the battalions of Volunteer infantry are now attached to depots of Regulars. The consequence was that in the South African war, when the Regulars were not sufficient, the Volunteer companies were called out and took their place in the Regular battalions. So far as I Know the commanding officers of these Regular battalions were absolutely satisfied with the Volunteer service companies. I maintain that the treatment of the
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    Volunteers ought to be equal to that of the Regulars, which has not been the case. Was the treatment of the Volunteer service companies who served side by side with the Regulars the same as that of the soldiers of the Line? Did they get the same medals? In neither case was the same equal treatment meted out. That is a deep grievance. There is a medal which every Regular soldier has, but which the Volunteers who served with him in South Africa have not got. And why? Simply because they were Volunteers. I heard a Volunteer officer say that as a result of this unequal treatment the Volunteers would not go again. Campaigning is the profession of a Regular soldier, but the members of these service companies left their civil employment and were only paid the same as the Regulars—not 5s. a day—and yet, when the need came, they were not treated exactly in the same way as the Regulars. Unless the Volunteer soldier and officer has, as far as possible, the same status as the Regulars his efficiency is impaired. The difficulty of getting Volunteer officers is not a question of money, but of status. The better classes of society in England will not officer the Volunteers (of that I am certain), although they will officer the Regulars and the Militia.
    A great deal of the soreness against the Army Corps system was the treatment of the Volunteers. For many years Volunteer battalions had been accustomed to go to certain camps. I am quite at one with my right hon. friend the Secretary for War in regard to the Army Corps; but somehow by this Army Corps arrangement the Volunteer Brigade were put into confusion, and Volunteer battalions were taken out of their old brigade and put into a new one. Take my own experience. For ten years my battalion had been attached to a particular brigade, but we were suddenly changed and put into the Liverpool Brigade, the battalions of which I had never seen before. I wanted to go to Conway, where all our camp equipage was. There was a meeting of the officers at Liverpool, and, excepting myself, who wanted to go to Conway, all the officers voted to go to Salisbury Plain. I made representations to headquarters to go somewhere else, but eventually my battalion went to Salisbury

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    Plain, and I found that the battalion of the officers who had so strongly urged Salisbury Plain was not there! We thought Salisbury Plain an exceedingly nice place, and were very happy there. This year, however, I received a very short notice to go to Lancaster, but was unable to do so because I was busy with licensing business. I sent my second in command, but he did not do well at all, and came back with a paper to say that the battalion was to go to the Isle of Man, to Cannock Chase, or Aldershot. I thought it was rather hard lines again to change our camp equipage, which had been sent to Salisbury Plain. Of the three places mentioned, I preferred to go to Aldershot, but was afterwards told that there were to be no Volunteers this year at Aldershot, and that we must go to the Isle of Man. If I had been a naval officer on an ironclad I might have been glad to go to the Isle of Man, but I think that to send a brigade of Volunteers across the sea to that island is ridiculous. These are the kinds of things that vex and upset the Volunteers, although they do not seem very great. I do not say it is the fault of my right hon. friend the Secretary for War, who has done his best always for, and sympathises with, the Volunteers, but I think in many matters a greater consideration ought to be shown, and greater elasticity allowed.
    There is another danger. Formerly we were able to go straight to the War Office and make representations, but now we are told that there has been decentralisation, and that we must go to the general of the district. [An HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!] It is all very well for an hon. Member to say "Hear, hear!" but my hon. friend should go with me to the Isle of Man when a stiff south-west wind is blowing in the Irish Channel. Generally speaking, I do not think that the Volunteer force has been given a check, but any advance that has been made is due to its own initiative, and not very much to the assistance of the War Office. What is required is to attach the Volunteer force and weld it, so to speak, still more to the Regular Army; and the linking system should also be carried out with the Yeomanry and Artillery. Where would the country have been
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    in the South African War if that could not have been done? I believe that 150,000 Regular troops went to South Africa, and, including the Colonials, there were 150,000 Volunteers. The fact is, that if it had not been for the Volunteers and the Volunteer system at that time, the country would have had to retire in the day of trouble. I hope that the Royal Commission will not prevent us ventilating our grievances in this House, and I believe that we are greatly indebted to the mover and seconder of the Resolution for their efforts to encourage and improve the Volunteers.
    * MR. LLEWELLYN:: Various reasons have been given for the deficiency of Volunteer officers. I have my own idea, which I put before the House many years ago. Any one who looks at the Army List at the present moment will see that there are a great number of Volunteer corps, as many as three and four, in one small town. The difficulty of. getting officers for these is very great. I know a small seaside town near my own constituency, mainly depending on summer visitors, where there are three corps of Volunteers—artillery, engineers, sub-marines, and there is talk of reviving a corps of naval Volunteers. It is absolutely impossible that a town of that size can afford to provide officers for all these branches of the Service, and I consider that some of these corps should be merged into one another. These corps are, at times, very friendly towards each other, but there is at other times an amount of competition between them which cannot be good for any of them. In my own county there are two Line battalions, two Militia battalions, two regiments of Yeomanry, and all the Volunteers, and it is absolutely impossible to obtain the number of efficient officers to carry on properly their duties. This question is worthy of consideration by the Royal Commission.
    *MR. DUKE: I hope that some of the dissatisfaction expressed at the recent action of the War Office in regard to the Volunteers will be removed

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    by the statements which have been made on behalf of the Government. It is impossible not to feel that between the speeches of the Prime Minister, the noble Lord, and other Ministers within the last few days, and for a long time past the successive acts of the War Office, there is a discrepancy which almost amounts to a contradiction. First of all, there was the Order of 24th December, 1901, which caused dissatisfaction to the Volunteers at a time when they had rendered most conspicuous service to the country in South Africa, and vindicated their position as a reliable part of the scheme of Home Defence. Then there were the regulations as to Volunteer training and efficiency which have depleted many Volunteer corps of their most valued members. The commanding officers of Volunteer corps in my own part of the county have complained to me that those men who had left their corps were amongst the most experienced. The men whom they had lost had left, not because of any diminution of patriotic feeling on the cessation of the war, but because they, especially married artisans, feared that they could not comply with the demands of the War Office. And now there are further regulations in regard to musketry practice which are found to be irksome. I was a little surprised to hear the hon. and gallant Member for Sheffield say that the scale of allowances for camps was satisfactory. That is not what I hear from Volunteer officers, who tell me that if you are to have compulsory camps you must be in a position to make allowances to the men to enable them to go back home after a week or fortnight's training to their wives and families, not with empty hands, but with something in hand. However spirited and devoted these men may be to volunteering, they cannot make the sacrifices now asked. The acts of the War Office seem to be directed to convert the Volunteers into unattached soldiers, to be tested by the same scale of efficiency as the Regular soldiers. I do not know whether the noble Lord dissents from that proposition.
    LORD STANLEY: I dissent.
    *MR. DUKE: The noble Lorddissents, but if you are to have absolute pro-
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    ficiency in drill, in musketry, and in service in camps which fits the men for field exercises, you have got as good soldiers as most of the men in the rank and file of the Army. My belief is that if the test of efficiency of a soldier is to be applied to Volunteers, the Volunteer service must break down. There is an obvious difference between an efficient Volunteer and a Regular soldier. You cannot expect a man engaged day by day in civilian pursuits to be an efficient soldier, but if the whole of the conditions are satisfactory you can get a sufficient body of men enrolled who will devote themselves to service in times of emergency—men who have acquired the rudiments of military knowledge. Certainly the men whom His Majesty's forces had to meet in South Africa had very much less training than the Volunteer corps in this country. They consisted of farmers and others who chiefly practised rifle-shooting on public holidays, but they had efficiency enough to give His Majesty's Army a great deal of trouble. I do not share the enthusiasm of some hon. Gentlemen around me who think that the defence of the country can be entrusted solely to Volunteers, that the right hon. Gentleman comes with an extravagant scheme when he asks us for 120,000 fully-trained soldiers at all times, but I say the existence of the 120,000 soldiers ought to enable you to make less exacting demands on your 250,000 Volunteers. I hope the constitution of the Commission, and the scope of the inquiry of the Commission, will be such that by and by the country may get its Volunteer system put upon a footing more consonant with the public mind than the policy that the Volunteer should be converted into an indifferent soldier. I do not want to take up a great deal of time, but I should like to say a few words further with regard to what is to be done in the meantime. If this Commission is to be of any service, it will have to go to the root of the whole matter of home defence. A man who volunteers makes an unusual display of patriotism. Many of us think that the defence of the country is the business of the whole of the citizens, and that if a man has not acquired the rudiments of military knowledge he ought to be made to acquire them. If you get that basis behind your Volunteers, I think the

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    Commission may have the result of making the Volunteers even more popular than they now are. But, at the same time, I venture to submit that while you make volunteering as widespread as possible, you should make the burden as light as possible. The complaint which is made by the Volunteers, and by friends of Volunteers in the country, is that although the War Office does so little in a pecuniary sense and makes so very little display of sympathy—I am not speaking of the right hon. Gentleman or the Financial Secretary, but of the soldiers who look on the Volunteers as inefficient items for public defence—although the War Office does so little to show practical sympathy, it demands so much. I hope the result of the inquiry will be to reconcile the demands of the country on the Volunteers with the assistance the country gives to the Volunteers in recognition of their services. If that is done, I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman will be dissatisfied with the Volunteer force. But until the Commission has reported I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, who depends on the Volunteers for public defence, as his Army scheme shows, and the Prime Minister, who has declared his confidence in the Volunteers as a part of the defensive forces of the country, will take care that the Volunteers are not harassed by such restrictions on the part of the War Office as the Order of December 1901, and the regulations which from time to time have been issued since then.
    *MR. RENWICK (Newcastle-on-Tyne): I venture to think that if the speech we have just heard from the noble Lord, the Financial Secretary to the War Office, is the reply of the Government to the demands of the Volunteers, the country will be profoundly disappointed. We did think, after all we had heard about the Volunteers during the last few years, that the War Office might have been able, without the aid of a Commission, to decide what was necessary to uphold the force. I heard a few minutes ago that this was the thirteenth Commission appointed by the present Government; and I therefore
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    think that the people of the country, and the Volunteers especially, will have no confidence whatever in it. Is this Government to go down to history as the Government of Commissions? It looks extremely like it. There is no doubt whatever, that in the minds of the great mass of the people of this country there is a profound belief that the War Office is doing its best to discourage the Volunteer force; and if the Government were determined to take any step, no matter what it might be, to give the people grounds for the belief that such was the case, they have chosen the very best course by promising to appoint this Commission, which, to my mind, is absolutely unnecessary. The authorities at the War Office know perfectly well what the Volunteers require. It has been reiterated over and over again. They do not require much. What have the Volunteers been asking for for the last two or three years? They have been asking that they should have accessible rifle ranges, which at the present time many Volunteer regiments have not. They have been asking that they should have efficient modern guns, which many of them have not got. I know a gallant Volunteer Artillery officer who served in South Africa, and who has been decorated with the D.S.O. He has now to drill his men with obsolete muzzle-loading guns. Is that an encouragement? Then Volunteer officers claim that they should be reimbursed in a more generous manner than they: are at present for out-of-pocket expenses; and, above all, that working men who give their time, and give it generously, should not be called upon to go into compulsory camps without being paid.
    These are the main points, to my mind, on which Volunteers complain; and yet, instead of granting their claims, they are going to get a Royal Commission to inquire into their wants, many of which, to my certain knowledge, have existed ever since 1859. Like my hon. friend the Member for Plymouth, I should like to know what is going to happen during the one or two years that will be occupied by this Commission in regard to the Regular Army. There i: an opinion that six Army Corps are no necessary. Personally, I am well a war that I voted for these six Army Corps

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    but why did I and many others vote for them. Because, in the first place, we were recommended to do so by the Government, and we were told that while the war was raging we would take a great responsibility by refusing to do so; and also because we were told that the Volunteers would be generously treated. Ever since then, instead of the Volunteers being generously treated, we have found that they have been ungenerously treated; and that the new regulations governing them were put into operation without due consideration. If the Government are so fond of Commissions why did they not appoint a Commission before they put these regulations into force When? they were in force, and when the Government saw their effect, they were modified. Why were not the modified regulations put in force first, and the strain gradually tightened on the Volunteers? The Government have gone the right way to wreck the Volunteer force and the country will resent it, because the country has confidence in the Volunteers, and that confidence has been justified by the way the Volunteers acted during the South African War. I say further that the country is willing to pay the necessary expense in order to provide the Volunteers with the necessaries they demand.
    We know perfectly well that Lord Roberts has announced over and over again that he was profoundly grateful to the Volunteers for what they did in South Africa. Speaking at Bisley, he said that whatever other qualifications a man might possess to be an efficient soldier he must be a good shot, and at the Mansion House he publicly thanked the Volunteers for what they had taught the Regular Army with regard to shooting. Yet, after these expressions from such an authority, we find the Volunteer force still clamouring for rifle ranges, and if they are to continue to clamour for the next two years, I am afraid that the Government
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    will find it will be most unpopular. I remember when the right hon. Gentleman was introducing his scheme for the six Army Corps, he told the House that after Waterloo the country went to sleep for forty years in regard to military matters, and that after the Crimean War the country went to sleep for ten years. But the country at the present time is not likely to go to sleep in regard to military matters, especially in regard to the Volunteers; and if the right hon. Gentleman thinks that the Commission will prove a sleeping draught he will find himself mistaken.
    Now I should like to remind the House of a fact that is sometimes forgotten, and that is who compose the Volunteer force. We know; that in regard to the Regular Army, according to the Recruiting Report for 1901–2, that it has largely to rely for recruits on agricultural labourers. I think that G69 out of every 1000 recruits are agricultural labourers; and yet we are getting these men at a time when we are told by Lord Roberts and other generals back from South Africa, that it is more than ever necessary that we should have men of greater intelligence in our Army. The Regular Army never touches the class of which the Volunteers are mainly composed. The Volunteers are mostly composed of the upper working classes and the middle classes, who rarely go into the Army. And yet we are told by the right hon. Gentleman that the more the soldier is merged into the citizen by short service the more popular the Army will be. Very well. If you want to bring citizens as a whole into touch with the Army, you must uphold your Volunteer corps; if rot, you get the agricultural labourer—I do not refer to him in any term of disrespect—and you leave out the great middle class altogether. What is the use of military authorities and

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    civilians going about the country addressing great public meetings, and telling the people how necessary it is that all our youths should be taught how to shoot and how to use military weapons, if you have no Volunteer force into which you can draft them. I should like to impress on the right hon. Gentleman the important factor that the middle classes are in regard to the Volunteer force. They are certainly intelligent, and it is absolutely necessary we should get them into that force. Do not forget that in our hour of trouble in South Africa we were very anxious to get their services. The very pick of our population emigrate to Canada and other places, and the Army and Navy also take a large portion of the best of our young men at a time when they would be most useful in our factories and workshops; but if we could put these men into the Volunteers, then their services would not be lost, as the services of so many of them are now lost. In his Report the Inspector General of Recruiting regrets to find a great falling off in the physical standard of the working classes of this country. If that is so, we cannot afford, the very great Army which the Government asks for.
    I would ask the Government, and I believe the country as a whole will agree with me, to continue to endeavour to complete three Army corps, and let the organisation of the others remain until the question of the Volunteers is settled. We do not want such a very large Army as that for which the Government is asking. True, they are only endeavouring to carry out what Parliament has granted but, at the same time, as the country
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    pays the bill, it ought to have something to say in this matter, and I know that it is the opinion of the country that it would be better to have a small and highly efficient Army, and a very large Volunteer force backed up by Yeomanry and Militia, than a very great Regular Army, the existence of which perhaps will be advanced as an excuse that we need not have a large and efficient Navy. We do want an efficient Navy, and the country is prepared to pay for it; and I trust we shall never hear in this House that we cannot have an efficient Navy because we are spending so much money on the Army. I know it is difficult to alter the minds of the military authorities, but as I was walking down Parliament Street a few days ago, it struck me that the new War Office building would be a very handsome and commons structure, and I trust that when the War Office officials get into that building they will carry out a more enlightened policy, and that when they leave their old building they will leave behind them many of its antiquated traditions, and, although they may carry some of the old furniture with them, I would appeal to them to leave behind the red tape which for so many years has been the curse, not only of the Army, but of the country as a whole.
    *MR. BRODRICK: I am not going to follow my hon. friend the Member for Newcastle into the somewhat impassioned appeal he has made; but I must say I never heard a speech that shows more the necessity for a Royal Commission being held into the condition of the Volunteer and Militia forces. My hon. friend is one of those who speak obviously from conviction; but it is obvious he has not considered, in any adequate degree at

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    all events, if he has considered at all, what are the relative possibilities of action by Volunteer forces and by Regular forces; and he treats the whole question as a sort of struggle between the two—which it is not in the eyes of any military man. My hon. friend entirely ignores not merely the military possibilities, but even the actual facts of what has been done. In the very years in which it is said that the Volunteer force has been starved and discouraged in respect of finance, very large additions have been made, large as compared with the previous cost of the force, which even my hon. friend, as a business man, would be first to recognise. The Volunteer force is now between 50,000 and 60,000 more than it was in 1870. In 1870, there were only 200,000 Volunteers, and there are at this moment about 250,000, or an increase of one in five. In 1870, the money spent on the Volunteers was £600,000; last year it was £1,720,000. That is to say that the Volunteers now cost three times as much, and that the actual rise in numbers is as one in five. I only mention these facts because it is important to consider them. My noble friend accurately stated the case when he said that we are in this position: The general efficiency of a considerable number of corps has not come up to what the military authorities say is essential if they are to be maintained in their present position. A certain number of corps are admirable; they are fully officered and fitted to work with the Regulars. But there is a very serious deficiency, and there always has been, of officers, not only in the Volunteers, but also in the Militia force; and the sole object of the military authorities has been not to discourage the Volunteers, but to endeavour to obtain from those!
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    corps which are not so efficient the same efficiency as the better corps give. That is an ambition which the military authorities have a right to hold. In enforcing that species of efficiency the military authorities have placed enormous value on going into camp. A great deal has been said about going into camp; and I merely wish to give the House one illustration. I remember a commanding officer coming to me and saying it was perfectly useless to ask his corps to go into camp—they could not go into camp. He said also it was quite impossible for the whole of his corps to do battalion drill at the same time, because the drill hall would only allow a little more than a quarter of the men to drill at a time, and it was impossible to drill in the open without going into camp. That really meant that, although this was an admirable corps, and well officered, only a quarter of the corps could be exercised at one time unless they went into camp. Was it too much, in these circumstances, to make it not only possible, but absolutely necessary, that these corps should be brought into camp, where they could learn what were the essentials of modern warfare? That was not an attack on the Volunteers—it was nothing to their discredit. On this point I think the country should come forward, if they could, and assist in that respect. But if you are going to make going into camp a subject of payment—and I am very far from saying it may not be necessary, and possibly desirable—you are putting the Volunteers into rather a different position from that in which they were before, and these are two points the Royal Commission will have to consider. The first is that the Regulars enlisted for three years, the Militia for five years, and the Yeomanry for five years; shall

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    the Volunteers not give longer notice than fourteen days before leaving the Colours?
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: My hon. friend knows that it is practically three or four years, under the contract with the commanding officers.
    *ME. BRODRICK: In most corps, by making a very small payment, a man can relieve himself from the contract.
    SIR. HOWARD VINCENT: £5 or £6.
    *MR. BRODRICK: The amount varies in different corps. The other point is the question of numbers, and that is really a military question. I entirely agree with what has been said to-night of the advantage of military training. At the same time, the whole subject is a very difficult and complicated one. All I have to say at present is that I fully recognise the views that have been expressed in this discussion. I can honestly say that from the time I first went to the War Office in 1886—when I was a member of the Committee which proposed a considerable addition to the allowances to Volunteers—I have done my very best to forward the interests of the corps. But the difficulty of accommodating the needs of the various corps is extremely great, and I think the time has come when the whole question might well be considered by the Royal Commission. I have great hopes that we may receive a very early Report. I shall lose no time in getting its appointment carried out, and in the meantime I think that the discussion to-night, perfectly unprejudiced as it has been, will be valuable. In conclusion I now
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    appeal to hon. Members to allow the House to get into Committee.
    *MR. MCCRAE: The right hon. Gentleman has said nothing about transport for Volunteers.
    *MR. BRODRICK: The hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension if he thinks that each Volunteer unit can be provided with transport of its own. That would be impracticable. The subject, however, has not been lost sight of.
    *MR. MCCRAE: I was on the Committee on Volunteer Transport to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and am anxious to know whether the War Office intend to act upon our recommendations.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: The statement of the right hon. Gentleman on this subject is so unsatisfactory that I feel it incumbent upon me to continue the debate and to make it clear that I, for one, am not content with what we were told some days ago by the Front Bench—that we had little right to take exception to the Army Corps system, or to the arrangement relating to the Volunteers, because in the stress of a great war we voted for it. We voted for that scheme because we thought it laid the foundation for an; Army system, and that time and common sense would be applied to the working out of the scheme, with due regard to the circumstances and character of the nation. I do not know how far its advantages have been carried out, but I do say that the right hon. Gentleman, having brought in a system, has had to appoint a Royal Commission to find out

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    how best he can clear up the mess,—or if he does not like the phrase—make the system one which will not destroy the whole of the Volunteer movement, but will make it an effective force. As one who has been closely associated with Volunteer regiments, and has been able to listen to the various points of view which have been advanced, I assert that the regulations laid down were simply cast-iron. They made no distinction between town and country corps; they assumed that the lives of the artisan and the labourer were the same, and they asked from both the same service as if they lived under the same conditions. A country corps can camp easily, whereas a town corps can easily manage drill although not in camp. A North or East London artisan, earning something like £1 per week, although he may be a keen and useful Volunteer, may not be able to obtain the leave of his employer to go into camp, and if he insists on going may be told to go about his business altogether. Surely the regulations might have made it practicable for so many drills to count in lieu of the camp, or for the number of days in camp to be reduced. Not a bit. These regulations allow no such elasticity, and, speaking of a regiment which did remarkably well in South Africa—I refer to the Tower Hamlets Brigade—I can only say that the officers have been greatly discouraged by the loss of many of their best men. By these regulations you have dealt a very serious blow at the young manhood, as found in the Volunteers who form the rank and file of that regiment, and who by their military work keep themselves in good health and greatly conduce to the maintenance of the standard of manhood.
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    Another unfriendly action of the War Office towards regiments of that description is to be found in the fact that whilst that regiment was furnished with Maxim guns—not at the public expense, but by those who contributed to the funds of the City Imperial Volunteers—the War Office refuse the cost of the harness, and no allowance is made at manoeuvres for the hauling of those guns. Either the commanding officer or a friend of the regiment had to find the money for the harness, or the guns had to be man-hauled. The result is that the men are discouraged, those who are interested in the regiment are discouraged, and the vital blow is struck at a regiment which has done a good deal to preserve the physique of the young men of London. The difficulties do not end there. We feel that under the Army corps system we see in the minds of the authorities some form of compulsory service which is to he made universal. I believe that when the day comes for us to appreciate how necessary an adequate defensive force is to the country, we shall not be hostile to the idea of compulsory service, provided it is conducted on business lines. Although my right hon. friend said a minute or two ago that it was wrong to think that the high authorities in Pall Mall wished to discourage the Volunteers, he has certainly not been able to show by any act in his administration that he has encouraged them; and it is because we believe that the arrangement now in force by the remission of the whole question to a Royal Commission, is fraught with danger to the future, we and all who take an interest in this subject are determined, however imperfectly, to appeal to the Government not to allow this thing to drift on, but to make use of the great latent forces which lie in the

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    people, and thus give first hand to the Crown a sufficient and enormous mass of men, which can only be done if their training is conducted on lines which permit the earning of their livelihood and do not risk the loss of their avocations.
    ME. LOUGH: I hope my right hon. friend will agree to an adjournment of the debate. This has been a most interesting and valuable discussion, and I think we have made more progress than the Government expected. I desire to refer to one or two general questions, and I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Lough.)
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I have no power to resist the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, but I think it is most inconvenient. All the points that hon. Members desire to raise can be debated in Committee, and I certainly think it would be far better. We should be able to begin to-morrow's proceedings by allowing the right hon. Gentleman to make his statement to the House in Committee. Of course, however, it is impossible to resist the Motion of the hon. Gentleman if he insists upon putting it.
    ME. WHITLEY: A question which some hon. Members on this side of the House wish to draw attention to is the expenses of officers in the Regular Army.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT (TRANSFER OF POWERS) BILL.
    Order for Second Reading read; Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    MR. CALDWELLsaid the Government were well aware there was a very strong opposition to this Bill, and he protested against its being taken at a few minutes before midnight. It proposed that certain powers might be transferred from the Local Government Board to County Councils. The matter was discussed in a private Bill before a Committee of the House, who threw it out. Since then there had been notices of objection put down by hon. Members on both sides of the House, and more particularly by Members on the Government side. The reason of the objections was that whilst Parish Councils did not object to being under the Local Government Board with regard to the exercise of these powers, they objected to be placed under the County Councils, which were local authorities who might be influenced by the views of people in the locality.
    And, it being Midnight, the debate stood adjourned.
    Debate to be resumed To-morrow
    Adjourned a two minutes after Twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Hamilton, Motherwell, and Wishaw Tramways [H.L.]. The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
Electric Lighting (London) Bill [H.L.], referred to the Examiners
Birmingham District Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Order for the meeting of the Standing Orders Committee on Thursday next, dischared.
Birmingham Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Bright Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Kings College. London, Bill [H.L.]; Manchester Corporation Bill [H.L.], Reports from his Majesty's Attorney General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Didcot, Newbury, and Southampton Railway Bill [H.L.]; Harrow and Stanmore Gas Bill [H.L.]; Taff Vale Railway Bill [H.L.]; London and North-Western Railway Bill [H.L.]; North's Navigation Collieries Bill [H.L.], read 2a.
Birmingham Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Brighton Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Exeter Corporation Bill [H.L.]; King's College (London) Bill [H.L.], read 2a (according to order).
Antrim, Down, Armagh, and Belfast Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Aston Manor Improvement Bill [H.L.]; Belfast Water Bill [H.L.]; Bournemouth Corporation Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Bristol Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Bury and District Joint Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Carmarthenshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Chard Corporation Gas and Electricity Bill [H.L.]; Frinton-on-Sea Sea Defences Bill [H.L.]; Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [H.L.]: Nantwich Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; North-Western Electricity and Power Gas Bill [H.L.]; committed; The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Oldham Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Pontypridd Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Rochester Corpora-
62
tion Tramways and Improvements Bill [H.L.]; Salford Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Scunthorpe Urban District Water Bill [H.L.]; Shropshire, Worcestershire, and East Denbighshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Southampton Harbour Bill [H.L.]; Sutton Coldfield Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Torquay Corporation Water Bill [H.L.]; Willesden Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Worthing Corporation (Tramways) Bill [H.L.]; committed; The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Harrogate Water Bill [H.L.]; Hastings Harbour Bill; committed.

PETITIONS.
  SHOES (EARLY CLOSING) BILL [H.L.]
  Petitions in favour of: of Traders' Defence Association of Scotland; and Glasgow Municipal Debating Society; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  BANGOR DIOCESE.
  Petitions in favour of restoration of patronage of certain benefices to the Bishop of Bangor: of clergymen in the rural deaneries of Twrcelyn; Archllechwedd; Talybolion; Eifionydd; Tyndaethway; Menai; Arwystli; Arvon; Maltraeth; Lleyn; Cyfeiliog Mawddwy; and Estimaur; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  NATAL.
  Ordered that the Order of Monday last that the "Northern Districts Annexation Act, 1902," do lie on the Table, be discharged.
  LIGHT LOAD LINE.
  The evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered except to members of the Committee, and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION
  Lists of public elementary schools and training colleges under the administration of the Board, 1902–1903
  ARMY (ESTIMATES).
  Abstract of Army Estimates, 1903–1904 (ordinary services only) compared with corresponding figures for 1902–1903.
  Report of the Naval Reserves Committee; with appendices.
  SEWAGE DISPOSAL (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Third Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire and report what methods of treating and disposing of sewage may properly be adopted, together with Minutes of Evidence, Vols. I. and II.
  EMIGRATION STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Report and tables for the year 1902.

  CHURCH ESTATES COMMISSION.
  Fifty-second Report from the Church Estates Commissioners, for the year preceding 1st March, 1903.
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND).
  Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General upon the account of the Irish Land Commission in respect of Church Temporalities in Ireland, for the year ended 31st March, 1902, together with the account for the above period and that from 26th July, 1869 (the date of the Irish Church Act), to 31st March, 1902.

  BUILDING SOCIETIES.
  Eighth Annual Report by the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies of the Proceedings of the Registrars under the Building Societies Acts; with an abstract of the Annual Accounts and Statements of Societies for the year 1902. Part I. Report.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  INTRUSIVE PATRONAGE IN NORTH WALKS.
  *LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY(who had the following Notice on the Paper, viz., "To ask the Earl Stanhope if he can explain why the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in 1835 recommended the union
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  of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph in order to endow Manchester, and alterations of episcopal patronage; and if he can justify the act of the Ecclesiastical Commission, by which in 1861 the patronage of twenty-four benefices situated in the Dioceses of Bangor and St. Asaph, and belonging to the Bishops of those Sees, was transferred to the Bishop of Llandaff, notwithstanding the divergence of the languages spoken in North and South Wales, and the fact that the 'magnitude of the See' had been largely increased prior to the transfer, and other circumstances which militate against the transfer: and whether he will take into his consideration the necessity of obtaining powers to rectify this transfer by the. restitution on the occasion of the next vacancy of the See of Llandaff of this patronage to the North Wales Sees, and to present petitions from the Archdeaconries of Bangor and Merioneth") said: My Lords, I am indebted to the courtesy of my noble friend to whom my Question is addressed for the correct date of the alienation from Bangor and St. Asaph of the benefices referred to in the Notice; also for the information that although the Ecclesiastical Commission had the power to transfer these benefices to Llandaff, it had no power to restore them to the Sees to which they belonged. I have petitions to present from twelve rural deaneries in the Bangor Diocese praying for the restoration of their patronage to the Bishops of Bangor and St. Asaph. No movement; in this direction was made by the Bangor clergy in the time of the Bishop, Dr. Campbell, because he discouraged it owing to a feeling of personal obligation to the then Bishop of Llandaff.
  It may be as well to give the history of this alienation or transfer of North Wales benefices to the South Wales Sees. It arose from the recommendation of a Royal Commission, which made a first Report on March 17th, 1835. The Report gives hardly any clue to its motives or reasons for its recommendations. Many of its recommendations were never Carried out, others were carried out and were rescinded later. One of these was for the abolition of the See of Bangor

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  and the constituting of one Diocese for North Wales for the purpose of endowing a See for Manchester. That is to say that North Wales, which is poor, was to be plundered for opulent Lancashire. This led to remonstrances from the North Wales clergy, and this scheme was dropped. It is said that its final overthrow was due to Lord Powis, the grandfather of the present Earl, and this good work of his is commemorated on his tomb at Welshpool. The See of Sodor and Man was to be abolished by uniting it to Carlisle. This also was dropped. Bristol and Gloucester were united to form the See of Ripon, but Bristol was later separated again from Gloucester. It is supposed that this abolition of one See in order to form another arose from a superstition that there could only be twenty-six Bishops. It might have been discovered sooner that all the new Bishops need not have seats in this House.
  I have asked my noble friend if he can explain this conduct of the Royal Commission of 1835. He may reply that he was not born then, but be may have found some explanation in the archives of the Ecclesiastical Commission, or he might say that this would be only an academical discussion. I submit that it is not so, since the Reports of this Commission are sufficient to justify the contempt expressed by the noble Marquess, the late Prime Minister, for Royal Commissions, and an examination of its composition may show how Royal Commissions might be made more effective than they have been. This Commission was composed of men of the highest position in the land, and with one exception of undoubted intellectual capacity. These Commissioners were all men of too high a position, burdened with too many other occupations, and with too little local knowledge to be able to estimate properly suggestions which must have been made in a doctrinaire spirit, without any regard to local feelings or requirements, and in direct opposition to the principle so often laid down by the late Prime Minister, namely, that the provision for the spiritual needs of a locality must be preserved to that locality. Those who signed this Report were: The Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Lynd-
  66
  hurst (Chancellor), the Archbishop of York, Lord Harrowby, the Bishop of London, the Bishop of Lincoln, the Bishop of Gloucester, Sir Robert Peel (Prime Minister), Mr. Henry Goulburn, Sir Charles Watkin Wynn, Mr. Henry Hobhouse, and Sir Herbert Jenner. Sir Robert Peel was not impartial in the matter of the Manchester See, for he was born and bred in the cotton atmosphere of Manchester. This greed of Manchester will be understood by those who remember its recent conduct with regard to the import duties in India on cotton goods, and, later, the excise duties on Indian cottons.
  Some light is thrown upon the composition of Commissions by a Madras paper, United India, written in English by Indians. That paper states that Lord Curzon has issued more Commissions than any other Viceroy; there were four sitting at once. That on University Education has been a complete failure. The members of these Commissions are the highest officials, who are taken away from their own work, which has to be done by others, who require, and get, more pay. All these Commissions appear to be too numerous, so that responsibility is diminished or frittered away. I am also indebted to the noble Earl to whom my question is addressed for the information that the Commission of which he is the first or principal lay member, does not promote legislation. In the case of these South Wales patronages it will not be needed. I must ask him to excuse me if my Notice has seemed to attribute to him more powers than he thinks he possesses; but his predecessor, Lord Chichester, was always considered to be the first Ecclesiastical Commissioner, and I think it is since the late Lord Chichester's time that the Secretary of the Commission has acquired that predominance or preponderance which has given rise to so much complaint, and which has caused the Church Times of 28th November last to say that for all practical purposes and matters of detail he is the Ecclesiastical Commission. Indeed, preponderance is not the right word so much as the Italian prepotenzu, which means supreme authority, but in the modern acceptation of the word, arrogant and arrogated authority.
  The system of patronage by a Bishop in the Diocese of another Bishop is alto-

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  gether wrong in principle. it is absurd to suppose that any amount of patronage would raise a new See, such as Liverpool or Manchester, to the level of Salisbury. A friend of mine wrote to me about the anomalies of Episcopal patronage, and gave as an instance the patronage of a parish close to London by a distant Bishop; but he seemed not to know that these anomalies are entirely modern and are due to the Report of the Ecclesiastical Royal Commission of 1835. The Most Reverend the Primate has no personal experience of the inconveniences of this intrusive patronage, because Winchester has not been plundered and has received no share of the plunder of others. Of the English Sees affected by the intrusive patronage caused by taking away patronage from some Sees to increase the magnitude or importance of other Sees, if the alienated patronage were restored, the greatest gainers would be—Hereford, 18; Durham, 15; Bath and Wells, 11; Lincoln, 10; Southwell, 9; Chichester, 8; Salisbury, 7; Ely, 5; Canterbury, 5; and York, 4. The losers would be—Worcester, 28; London, 19; Manchester, 18; Chester, 16; Oxford, 7; Peterborough, 5; Ripon, 5; Norwich, 2; Gloucester, 1; and Lincoln, 1.
  The See of St. David's also possesses the patronage of six benefices within the Diocese of St. Asaph, and the right rev. prelate who presides over St. David's has given me leave to explain why I omitted including his See and patronage in my Notice. It was because I was aware that he was seeking to restore, these to St. Asaph by means of exchanges, also that that right rev. prelate had nothing to defend either in the present nor in the past, that is, in the time of his predecessors; and having been Dean of St. Asaph he is well acquainted with that Diocese.
  The clergy who remonstrated against the suppression of the Bangor See and its fusion with St. Asaph pointed out that it would be difficult for a Bishop residing at St. Asaph to know the circumstances of parishes in Anglesey, and that it would be a hardship for the clergy to have to make a journey of fifty miles to see their Bishop. This objection applies with greater force to Sees as distant as the South Wales Sees.
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  These objections have lately been set forth in a letter to me by a Church dignitary in Wales, who writes—
  "Parishes, like individuals, have their peculiarities, and surely it is a part of the Bishop's office to choose a round peg for a round hole. A man who would be an utter failure in one parish may be fairly successful in a parish differently circumstanced; this important part of a Bishop's office cannot be discharged by a Bishop living 200 miles away, amidst different surroundings as regards men and manners."
  The differences of the Welsh spoken in North and South Wales are by no means the chief reasons why these North Wales benefices ought to be restored to the Northern Sees. They have been put down in the Notice because they are the most self-evident, and admit of being stated in the fewest words. As to the divergence of the dialects of North and South Wales, which some are inclined to minimise, an Anglesey Rector, who is a native of South Wales, an Oxford man, writes to me—
  "Although I have had exceptional advantages in having been an intimate friend at Oxford of an Anglesey man, and frequently, if not almost invariably talked Welsh with him, and although I have been resident in North Wales since I was ordained sixteen years ago, I still find myself using expressions which puzzle my hearers, and sometimes hear words and forms of expression which are strange to me. This applies more to private conversation than to public ministration, though the consciousness of being liable to use unintelligible words or phrases interferes with one's freedom when speaking extempore, or from notes. Written compositions are of course free from colloquial expressions, and are therefore less likely to offend. The difficulty is aggravated in the case of men from Llandaff, as the Glamorganshire dialect is less intelligible and more repugnant to the ears of North Welshmen than that of Mid Wales."
  Another strong reason for discontinuing the introduction of South Wales clergymen into North Wales parishes is the great ill-feeling, amounting to contempt, exhibited by the people of North Wales towards those of South Wales, which must detract from the efficacy of the ministrations of South Wales clergy. When I first came to live in Wales, I thought it unreasonable that such feelings should be excited by a geographical division. I then thought that these feelings were probably confined to agricultural labourers and farmers. Later I found that these feelings extended to all classes of habitual residents in Wales; and that con-

  69
  sequently the landowners in North and South Wales had separate associations for their defence, though that of South Wales found it advisable to employ the North Wales barrister.
  Further investigation proved to me that these feelings had more reasonable grounds than a fanciful and arbitrary geographical division, and that they werefounded on ancient tribal differences. These tribal distinctions and differences began, or were first recorded, in the time of the Romans. History records, in a fine passage of Tacitus, the stand made by the men and women of the Ordovices or men of North Wales in Anglesey against Suetonius Paulinus. History also relates the ineffective resistance of the Silures or South Walians, under Caractacus or Caradoc. against Ostorius and other Roman Generals, and his betrayal to the Romans by his mother-in-law. Tacitus says this occurred in the ninth year of the struggle, but he does not seem to have thought much either of Caractacus or his opponent Ostorius. Caractacus has obtained more favour on account of his speech when a prisoner before Claudius, attributed to him by Tacitus, than for any warlike prowess or success. But the best point in that speech is his surprise that the Romans, who possessed such opulence at home, should deem it worth their while to fight for the hovels of Britain. This passage, given in Dr. Lingard's history, is not to be found in the speech as recorded by Tacitus, it stands on the authority of the Byzantine historian Zonaras, who wrote about the year 1100. It is, however, more probable that the ill-feeling of the people of North Wales for the South Wales people began, or became more accentuated, in Anglo-Saxon times, when the South Wales people, who had become effeminate by Roman culture and civilisation in a greater degree than those of North Wales, succumbed more readily to the Saxons, and later to the Normans, and so became an object of contempt to the men of North Wales, whoat present always speak of them as Hwntus. This word is not to be found in the dictionaries. From the tone in which it is pronounced, it would seem to be a very opprobrious epithet; but it really only means those who are beyond; as they say in North Wales, beyond the pale of civilisation, or beyond the pale of Wales
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  proper; or, as they say in South Wales, beyond the river Dovey.
  The actual result of transferring patronage from the North Wales Sees to those of South Wales has been as bad in practice as could be expected from a transfer made on a false principle, that of increasing the "magnitude" or importance of the South Wales Sees, and in ignorance of, or disregard of the circumstances. The results in the case of St. David's have not been anything like those that have attended the exercise of the Llandaff patronage. This may be owing to two causes; first, that St. David's had only six patronages in North Wales whilst Llandaff had twenty-four; and secondly, that the staff of the Llandaff Diocesan officials appear to have written over their pigeon-holes relating to the Bangor and St. Asaph Dioceses, "Rubbish may be shot here." As I said before, that the right reverend Prelate who presides over the See of St. David's has little or nothing to defend in the present or in the past, whilst the Llandaff patronage shows fourteen or fifteen cases of bad appointments out of twenty-four since the year 1869 up to the present time. Of these, four have been appointed by the present occupant of the See of Llandaff. The complaints against these incumbents vary in character, from deficiency in the knowledge of Welsh where Welsh is required, extreme old age and voicelessness, want of mental ability, quarrelsomeness, or being what is called a "crank."
  As to two cases I can give further details. One is that of a Llandaff appointment made in 1869 to Trefriw, in Carnarvonshire. This Rector can have little time for his spiritual duties, as he has become a sort of Whiteley. He is the principal owner of the bridge connecting the town with Llanrwst, and its tolls; he has a bakehouse, and a grocery, a blacksmith's shop, and a farm; a public-house where he keeps a manager, and it is said provides the liquors; he has also a flannel factory, and besides infringing Canon law by trading, he, as I am told, infringes Statute law, which prohibits a clergyman from belonging to a company of less than eight, since he has formed a nominal or bogus company of this own

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  relatives, all sleeping partners. If this incumbent were a layman there would be no fault to find with him.
  A worse case is that of the Rector of Llanrug, Carnarvonshire, appointed in 1879. His conduct was such that the Bishop of Bangor had to appoint a commission of inquiry about him, and he has been inhibited from his clerical duties. The Liverpool Courier of 5th December, 1901, published a letter from the diocesan clerk with the report of the Commission. The substance of this was that the population of Llanrug was 3,500; that besides the parish church, there was a mission church; that the net yearly stipend of the incumbent was £142; that besides that he received from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners £60 a year, £50 a year from the Church Pastoral Aid Society, and £10 a year locally subscribed for the stipend of an assistant curate licensed by the Bishop; that this curate had not been able to perform all his clerical duties (it is not stated why); that during the last twelve months, or thereabouts, the Sunday services at the district of Cwmyglo had been conducted by a layman not licensed 'by the Bishop, and a quarryman by occupation; that from the evidence before the Commissioners it appeared that the incumbent had for a money consideration, of which no account was produced, allotted both to parishioners and non-parishioners parts of the churchyard of the parish for use as burial places at some future date; that the baptisms had not been duly entered in the Register book, and there had been more lay baptisms than were necessary; that the ecclesiastical duties of the benefice were inadequately performed, owing to the negligence of the incumbent, and that no medical evidence of his ill-health was put forward.
  For my own part I must observe that when the diocesan clerk, in his letter to the Liverpool Courier, says that this anticipated sale of grave spaces in the churchyard to non parishioners is unjust to the parishioners, at whose expense the larger portion of the churchyard had been provided, he understates the nature of this act, which was one of criminal fraud and obtaining money under false pretences, since
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  the incumbent pocketed the money for sales which were not valid, and which were not binding on the successor of this incumbent. I can only suppose that this unduly mild euphemism was adopted to avoid recourse to a criminal prosecution.
  I have one further point to urge, one which principally concerns the right rev. Prelate who presides over the See of Llandaff, and which should have more weight with him than with others whom I am addressing. I should mention that since the beginning of the year I have received what I might call an Episcopal New Year's card, or printed leaflet,; commencing with three collects. The first of these prays for the cleansing of the Church, and I submit that the twenty four benefices now alienated from Bangor and St. Asaph may require this treatment, and that unless they are restored to those Sees, humanly speaking the best way for their present patron to cleanse them would be to follow the classical precedent and to turn the river Dovey through them. The third of these collects prays that those for whom the prayer is made may be enabled to follow the examples of departed saints. This is what I hope the right rev. Prelate who presides over Llandaff will do, when I remind him that his first predecessor in his See, St. Dubricius, voluntarily resigned to St. David the See of Caerleon. St. David at; first refused this cession with tears, but was at length overruled by the Synod, and accepted it. I am happy to be able to say that the right rev. Prelate who presides over Llandaff is prepared to follow in the footsteps of his predecessor in the See, St. Dubricius, and to treat the Bishops of Bangor and St. Asaph in the same fraternal spirit as that which was manifested between St. Dubricius and St. David; for he has written to me that he—
  "Desires to assure me that if the object I have in view can be attained without depriving the See of Llandaff of the Patronage of which it is at present possessed, by the transfer to it of that of other Benefices in place of those which it now holds in North Wales, he will be quite ready to give all the help in his power to effect it."

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  There ought to be no difficulty in arriving at a satisfactory solution of this matter, and I hope it will be settled in a Christian spirit, and not that of Shylock. I would explain why I have given all these details, instead of confining myself to stating the terms of the letter of the Bishop of Llandaff. It is because I thought it necessary to attempt to make a practicable breach in the wall of self-satisfaction which surrounds the office which the noble Earl presides over, but does not control; because it was necessary to show the necessity for restitution, and to vindicate the North Wales men for their aversion to natives of South Wales; to discourage haggling on the terms of exchange, and unreasonable expectations on both sides of a whole pound of flesh or more: lastly, for the satisfaction of the Right Rev. Prelate, who printed and circulated the collects which have been so efficacious in obtaining a fortunate result.
  *EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I shall not attempt to follow the noble Lord in his somewhat lengthy speech, but shall confine myself to answering the Question as it stands upon the Paper. The object which the noble Lord has in view is a very good one, but I may say that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, of which I am a humble member, have nothing to do with patronage or with the transfer of patronage. The transfer of ecclesiastical patronage is no doubt that which was affected by a scheme of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ratified by an Order of Her late Majesty in Council on July 25, 1861, referred to in the Commissioners' fourteenth Report in 1862. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners have no power to effect a retransfer of the patronage of the benefices in question unless it be by way of exchange at the request of the Bishops and with the concurrence of the Archbishop. The transfer was made with a view to carrying out in Wales the direction contained in the Act of 6 and 7 William IV., chap. 77, which, after providing for a general rearrangement of the boundaries of the English and Welsh dioceses, enacted as follows—
  "That such alterations be made in the apportionment or exchange of ecclesiastical patronage among the several Bishops as shall be consistent with the relative magnitude and
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  importance of their dioceses when newly arranged, and as shall afford an adequate quantity of patronage to the Bishops of the new Sees."
  It was necessary to supplement the amount of patronage enjoyed by the two southern dioceses of Llandaff and St. David's, and as, under the Act, only episcopal patronage could be affected, the increased patronage which had to be found for the southern Welsh Bishoprics could only be provided out of the north Sees.

  REGISTRATION OF LAND WRITS IN SCOTLAND.
  *THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH), who had given notice—"To call attention to the system of registration of writs relating to heritable property in Scotland, and to present a Bill"—said: My Lords, I am afraid I must admit that the subject which I propose to call attention very shortly to this afternoon is one of a highly technical character, but it is not controversial, and I hope your Lordships will have no difficulty to-night in allowing the Bill which I shall present to be read a first time, and that it may subsequently pass into law. The land register, with which the Bill deals, is really the general register of all transactions connected with heritable property in Scotland; it is really the land register for the whole of Scotland. The order in which writs relating to this class of property are registered fixes the priority of title, and therefore registration is practically compulsory of every writ connected with land, and has been compulsory for a very long period of years. There are considerably over 40,000 such writs registered every year, and therefore the business which is done in this office is not only of a very large and complicated, but of a most important, kind. The method which is followed at present is that when a writ is presented for registration it is entered in what is known as the Presentment Book for the county in which it is desired that it should be recorded. A careful Minute of each writ has to be made, and this, of course, is skilled work, involving conveyancing knowledge of a high-class character, which has to be correspondingly paid for. This Minute Book is made accessible to the public as soon as possible, and the transactions of each

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  year are bound up separately for the year and preserved, each year separately by itself. In addition to the Minute which I have mentioned, there is also what is known as a search-sheet. This document is kept upon a different principle. It is not a general register, but a particular register kept in a series of books in ledger form, and it is cross indexed both under the names of persons and places, and from an examination of this search-sheet may be seen the burdens and transactions which have affected every property for the last thirty-five or forty years.
  At present all writs sent for registration have to be engrossed and copied at length. This is work also of an important kind, and every writ is collated twice; that is, after it has been engrossed it has to be read, and read a second time, so as to make sure that it is accurately transcribed. This is very laborious work, and I am told that the work of collating the different writs is very much more trying and very much more disliked than the actual copying out of the writs themselves. Various inconveniences have been found in the past at certain times of the year. Your Lordships know that almost all transactions in land in Scotland take place at one or other of the two terms Martinmas and Whitsunday, and a considerable rush to have writs registered arises in consequence. A strong Committee, presided over by one of the Judges of the Court of Session, was appointed by myself a few years ago, and upon that Committee there were represented not only the Treasury, but different branches of the legal profession. They made a unanimous Report in the direction that the existing system of control and the procedure are confused and require regulation, that the present practice under which every writ is engrossed and then twice collated by the clerks of the establishment has very serious disadvantages, that the amount of labour involved is very great, and various suggestions have been made from time to time for getting over these difficulties. It has been suggested that the writs should be printed, but this Committee to which I have alluded reported that printing would not save either time or money, and it would not do away with the necessity of most
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  carefully collating every writ after it had been printed, and there would also be this great disadvantage, that there would be a considerable risk of loss or damage because the writs themselves would have to be entrusted to the printers.
  The Committee therefore reported against printing the writs, but in favour of a process which is called photo-zincography. I must apologise to your Lordships for the use of such an apparently barbarous term, but it is, I understand, a process of photographing the writs on zinc plate. This is not a new process; it is used in the Ordnance Survey Department. It has also been used for the reproduction of the Doomsday Book and many historical documents. I understand it was also used for the reproduction of the Book of Common Prayer which is kept in the Library of your Lordships' House. Very exhaustive experiments have been made with regard to this process. The whole of the writs registered for the county of Fife for a month, over 200 in number, have been carefully reproduced by this process for the use of the Committee. There is, I believe, a general consensus of opinion that this process, if it could be made legal, which is the object of this Bill, would work a very great improvement in the present system. The writs, being reproduced by photography, must necessarily be exact facsimiles of the original. Many more copies can be got with much less labour than by writing, and the process can be so carried on that the writs, although exposed to the photographing process, need never leave the possession of those who are responsible for their custody. I have had placed in the Library of the House copies of the writs which were reproduced before this Committee. They are bound in volume form, and in case any of your Lordships might wish to see them the volumes will remain for some weeks in the Library.
  I do not anticipate any real difficulty about it, but the urgency of the matter is this, that considerable extensions are being made to the Register House in Edinburgh, and we have now arrived at the stage when it must be decided whether the upper storeys of this building are to be prepared for people who are to

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  sit writing, or for those who are to use this process of photography. The Treasury have given their consent to the introduction of this Bill. I believe that there is no doubt that a certain saving will result from the adoption of the process, although that, I am bound to say, neither on the part of the Scottish Office nor the Treasury, is the real reason for the introduction of this Bill. We believe it will be a process better in itself, more suitable for the purpose for which this preservation of writs is designed, and one which will really afford the possibility of more copies being produced for preservation and circulation to those concerned. I hope that with this explanation your Lordships will give the Bill a First Heading.
  On Question, Bill read 1a. To be printed. (No. 1.)

  PENSIONS FOR MASTER MARINERS.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government what proportion of the annual income of the Corporation of Trinity House is expended in pensions to decayed masters of the Mercantile Marine; whether applicants must, before any consideration is given to their applications for such pensions, be nominated by any particular person or persons and whether there are any other funds in the hands of the Government which are available for grants to decayed masters of the Mercantile Marine.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I have to thank the noble Lord for the courtesy he has shown to the Board of Trade in delaying his Question for some days in order that we might get the necessary information. We have had considerable correspondence with other Offices, and I am now able to give the noble Lord an answer which I hope will prove satisfactory. The Board of Trade has no jurisdiction with regard to the charitable funds of the Corporation of Trinity House, which are administered under a scheme of the Charity Commissioners. They have, however, been furnished with the following information by the courtesy of the Elder Brethren:—The Corporation are trustees of certain charitable funds out of which pensions are granted to decayed master mariners and others. Some of the appointments
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  to these pensions are made by the Corporation upon the nomination of the Elder Brethren individually, in turn as vacancies occur. The accounts showing the disposal of these funds are rendered to the Charity Commissioners in the usual manner. With regard to the latter portion of the Question, pensions are granted by the Board of Trade (1) from moneys voted by Parliament to masters who contributed to the Merchant Seamen's Fund previous to August, 1851, and who continued their contribution during the period of their service at sea;, (2) from the Greenwich Sixpenny Fund to masters who served at sea for at least five years previous to January 1, 1835, and who contributed 6d. a month during that period.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.