Sitting of 6 July 1903

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—West Bromwich Corporation Bill [Lords]; Lochnell Estate Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have not been complied with, viz.:—Bangor Corporation Bill [Lords]; Gosport and Fareham Tramways Bill [Lords]; South Eastern and London, Chatham and Dover Railways Bill [Lords]; Manchester Corporation Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]; Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time to-morrow.
  Hastings Tramways (Extensions) Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  Strabane and Letterkenny Railway Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Gateshead Corporation Bill. As amended, considered.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
  Hexham Gas Bill [Lords]; Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill; Nantwich Urban District Council Bill [Lords]; Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Sheffield Corporation Bill. As amended, considered.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]
  Torquay Corporation Water Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  Bournemouth Gas and Water Bill [Lords]; Chatham and District Light Railways Bill [Lords]; Maryport Harbour Bill [Lords]; Mid Yorkshire

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  Tramways Bill [Lords]; Salford Corporation Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Castleblaney, Keady, and Armagh Railway (Extension of Time) Bill (by Order). Read a second time, and committed.
  Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13) Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time to-morrow.
  Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Lanarkshire and Dumbartonshire Railway Bill, without Amendment.
  West Cumberland Electric Tramways Bill, with Amendments.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the constitution of Bishoprics of Southwark and Birmingham, and for matters incidental thereto." [Bishoprics of Southwark and Birmingham Bill (Lords).]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer power on the Scottish Ontario and Manitoba Land Company, Limited, for the repayment and reduction of their capital; and for other purposes." [Scottish Ontario and Manitoba Land Company Bill (Lords).]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to enable money to be raised or secured upon the Pentillie Estate in the county of Cornwall devised by the will of Augustus Coryton, esquire, deceased." [Pentillie Estate Bill (Lords.)]
  Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the South Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Company to construct a railway and a pier; to raise additional capital; to enter into working agreements with the London and South Western Railway Company; and for other purposes." [South Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Bill (Lords).]
  And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Bury and District Joint Water Board to construct additional waterworks; to repeal and amend enactments relating to the Water Undertaking of the Board; and for other purposes." [Bury and District Joint Water Board Bill (Lords.)]
  Scottish Ontario and Manitoba Land Company Bill [Lords]; Pentillie Estate Bill Lords]; South Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Bill [Lords]; Bury and District Joint Water Board Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  LICENCES RENEWAL AND TRANSFER BILL AND LICENSING LAW (COMPENSATION FOR NON-RENEWAL) BILL.
  Petition from Banbury, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES' OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION BILL.
  Petition from Hackney, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  OLD AGE PENSION SCHEME.
  Petition from Baildon, for adoption; to lie upon the Table.
  SEA-TROUT FISHINGS IN ORKNEY.
  Petition of the County Council of Orkney, for inquiry; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EAST INDIA (LIABILITY FOR INCREASE IN BRITISH SOLDIERS' PAY).
  Return [presented 2nd July] to be printed. [No. 237.]
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Regulations for the Instruction and Training of Pupil Teachers and Students in Training Colleges [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Minute of the Board of Education, dated 6th July, 1903, withdrawing Article 102 and Articles 111 to 129, inclusive, of the Provisional Code, 1903 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Regulations for Secondary Schools (from 1st August, 1903, to 31st July, 1904) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Regulations for Evening Schools, Technical Institutions, and Schools of Art and Art Classes, from 1st August, 1903, to 31st July, 1904 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1887.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 22nd June, 1903, granting to Mr. M. J. O'Callaghan, late Clerk of the Second Division, in the Department of Public Works, Ireland, a Retired Allowance under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES.
  Copy presented, of Regulation, dated 1st July, 1903, made by the Treasury, under the Friendly Societies Act, 1896 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland for the year 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  METROPOLITAN WATER STOCK REGULATIONS, 1903.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Local Government Board prescribing Regulations with respect to the creation, issue, transfer, dealing with, and redemption of any Metropolitan Water Stock which the Metropolitan Water Board create under The Metropolis Water Act, 1902 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  ARMY.
  Copy presented, of Letter from General Officer Commanding the Forces in South Africa transmitting the proceedings of a
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  Board of Officers assembled to report upon certain Supplies of Meat and Vegetable Rations at Pretoria considered to be unfit for issue [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  ARMY EXPENDITURE.
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 31st March—Sir John Colomb]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 238.]
  ROYAL GARRISON REGIMENTS.
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 30th April—Mr. Churchill]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 239.]
  IRON AND STEEL, 1901.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 3rd July—Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 240.]
  TRAMWAYS AND LIGHT RAILWAYS (STREET AND ROAD).
  Return ordered, "of Street and Road Tramways and Light Railways authorised by Act or Order, showing the amount of capital authorised, paid up, and expended; the length of line authorised, and the length open for the public conveyance of passengers, down to the 30th day of June, 1903; the gross receipts, working expenditure, and net receipts; the number of passengers conveyed, and the number of miles run by cars, during the year ended the 30th day of June, 1903; together with the number of horses, engines, and cars at that date (in continuation and extension of Parliamentary Paper, No. 307, of Session 1902)."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (CONTRACTS.)
  Return ordered, "of all Contracts made in the United Kingdom for manufactured articles by the several Government Departments in the year ending the 31st day of March, 1903, either with contractors outside the United Kingdom or with contractors or agents who obtain the articles from abroad (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 304, of Session 1901)."—(Sir Howard Vincent.)
  PROBATION OF FIRST OFFENDERS.
  Address for "Return of the number of cases within the Metropolitan Police District, the West Riding of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Staffordshire, Warwickshire, and Durham, in which persons convicted of first offences have, by reason of their youth or the trivial nature of the offence, been released under recognisances on probation of good conduct in the years 1900, 1901, and 1902, under The Probation of First Offenders Act, 1887; and of the number of cases in which such persons have been called upon to appear to receive judgment, or are known to have been subsequently convicted of a fresh offence (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 348, of Session 1900)."—(Sir Howard Vincent.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Alien Immigration Returns.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state in what respect the Returns of Aliens arriving in this country laid every month upon the Table are not strictly accurate; and if he can inform the House from what source the figures are derived, and if there is any penalty for a false Return; and further, to what classes of persons the Returns apply, and in the case of the aliens arriving at Newhaven how the information is obtained.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) I am not aware of any particular in which the Returns of Aliens are inaccurate, and every endeavour is made to secure their accuracy. The figures are derived from lists of alien passengers furnished to the Customs authorities by masters of vessels arriving from European ports at the twenty-nine ports in this country of which the hon. and gallant Member will find a list in the monthly Return laid before the House. The lists obtained at five of these ports which are specified in the Return are exclusive of saloon passengers. A penalty for a false Return is provided by Section 2 of the Act 6, William 4, cap. xi., under which the Returns are collected. The information
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  is obtained at Newhaven, as at other ports, in accordance with the provisions of the Act.

  Trade Returns.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if, having regard to the importance of having the trade statistics for 1902 available as quickly as possible, the issue of the statistical abstract can be somewhat expedited in view of the fiscal discussion now in progress.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) Every effort will be made to publish the statistical abstract at as early a date as possible, but it cannot be issued until the necessary data are available. Meanwhile the hon. and gallant Member will find figures relating to the trade of 1902 in the Monthly Accounts of Trade and Navigation for December last.

  British Exports for 1902.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state what proportion of the British exports for 1902 consisted of goods manufactured in the United Kingdom, of coal and other raw material for industrial competition, of ships and machinery; and what was the total value in each of these three classes taken by British colonies and dependencies and by foreign countries respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) Of the total value of the exports of British produce in 1902, 74 per cent. was accounted for by manufactured and partly manufactured articles, exclusive of ships and machinery; 9 per cent. by ships and machinery; and 11 per cent. by raw materials. The total values of the exports of these three classes taken by British possessions and foreign countries, respectively, were — Manufactured articles, exclusive of ships and machinery: to foreign countries, £120,000,000; to British possessions, £89,400,000. Ships and machinery: to foreign countries, £16,100,000; to British possessions, £8,500,000. Raw materials: to foreign countries, £28,900,000; to British possessions, £2,500,000.

  Foreign Imports into British Colonies.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade what were the total imports of foreign goods into Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Newfoundland, the Cape, and Natal, respectively, in the last completed year for which figures are available, and how much of these respective imports consisted of manufactured goods.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The total imports of foreign goods into Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Newfoundland, the Cape, and Natal, respectively, in the year 1901, the last for which there are complete Returns, were as follows: Australia, £12,438,000; New Zealand, £2,018,000; Canada (for year ended 30th June, 1902), £32,527,000; Newfoundland (for year ended 30th June, 1902), £572,000; the Cape, £4,418,000; Natal, £1,601,000. The colonial Returns do not distinguish manufactured from other goods.

  Duty on and Price of Wheat in Germany.
  MR. CROMBIE: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade what is the duty per quarter upon wheat charged upon entry into Germany; and what is the present price of wheat in Germany compared with the price of the same quality in Britain.
  (Answered by Mr. Bonar Law.) The Customs duty leviable in Germany on imported wheat is at the rate of 3 mks. 50 pfgs. per 100 kilogs., equal to 7s. 7½d. per quarter. The average price of wheat on the 1st July, at the nine German markets, for which particulars are quoted in the Reichsanzeiger for the 2nd July, was 35s. 6d. per quarter. The average Gazette price of British wheat in England and Wales for the week ended 27th June was 27s. 6d. per quarter.

  Income Tax in France.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if foreigners having real estate in France will be subject to the income tax recently imposed upon the full amount of their incomes, or if only upon such income as is derived from property in France.
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  (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) From the provisions of the Bill recently submitted to the Chamber of Deputies it appears that foreigners of more than one year's residence, whether they have real estate in France or not, will have to pay on their entire income, whether derived from France or from other countries. Foreigners not residing in France but possessing there landed property or agricultural, commercial, or industrial establishments are apparently subject to income tax only in respect of such property or establishments. The law is, however, not to take effect till the next year but one after the date of its enactment.

  Great Britain and Belgium—Maritime Law.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with regard to the draft treaties relating to the law of collision and salvage at sea, based on suggestions made at conferences of shipowners, lawyers, underwriters, and merchants organised by the Comité Maritime International at Antwerp, 1898, London, 1899, Paris, 1900, and Hamburg, 1902, received from the Belgian Government, and the suggestion that these draft treaties should be submitted to a diplomatic conference for consideration, if he will state what action is to be taken by the Government; and what reply has been made to the Belgian Government.
  (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) The Belgian Government have been informed that it has long been the settled policy of His Majesty's Government not to be officially represented at such conferences, the decisions of which, if they were represented thereon, might possibly be regarded as to some extent placing them under an obligation to alter or modify the existing maritime law of this country.

  Admiralty Gifts of Stone for Church Building.
  MR. PHILIPPS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the amount and value of the stone recently given to build a church at Pembroke Dock; by what authority it was given; and whether similar contributions will in future be given towards

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  the building of Nonconformist places of worship in the town proportionately, according to the numbers of the respective congregations.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The amount of the stone cannot now be stated accurately. It was part of the material arising from the demolition of an old battery. The stone was valued at £60, and that amount was charged to the Vote liable for grants to religious institutions by authority of the Board of Admiralty. The building was a mission church for a district mainly inhabited by dockyard employees. Applications for grants of this character for churches or for Nonconformist places of worship are considered equally on their merits.

  Foreign Imports into India.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Secretary of State for India what was the total import of foreign goods into India in the last completed year for which figures are available, and how much of these imports consisted of manufactured goods.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The total imports of private merchandise from foreign countries into India in 1901–2 amounted to £14,984,934, of which £7,432,427 represented articles wholly or partially manufactured.

  Factories and Workshops—Fire Precautions.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consider the expediency of introducing legislation such as will bring within the scope of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, premises such as those in Queen Victoria Street, the scene of a recent fire which was attended with the loss of life of some of the workers.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I do not think that it would be expedient to bring within the Factory and Workshop Act, for the purposes of the provisions relating to means of escape from fire, buildings which would not be either factories or workshops for any other purpose of the Act.

  Underground Kitchens.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he purposes introducing this session such legislation as will place underground kitchens in hotels and restaurants and other refreshment houses under the same conditions as already apply to underground bake-houses in view of the report made by Dr. Collingridge, the medical officer of health to the City of London, showing that there are 135 underground kitchens in London which are unfit for the purpose of cooking food.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) I am advised that the kitchens of restaurants are "work-places" within the meaning of the Public Health Acts and Section 2 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, and therefore local authorities, including the Court of Common Council for the City of London, to whom, if I understand aright, the report mentioned in the Question was made, have considerable powers for the enforcement of sanitation in such places. I am not prepared to introduce legislation applying to these kitchens the provisions of Section 101 of the Act of 1901, which I understand to be the hon. Member's suggestion.

  Vivisection—Consecutive Experiments on the same Animal.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, is there any limit to the number of consecutive operations that may be performed on the same dog under the Act 39 and 40 Vic, c. 77, as administered by the Home Office.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) The Act imposes no such limit, but it is within the power of the Secretary of State to impose one, if thought necessary, by conditions attached to the licence.

  Post Office Sorters and Official Papers.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will explain why the privilege accorded to telegraphists of perusing official papers concerning their personal character is withheld from sorters.

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  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I am not certain to what official papers the hon. Member refers; but as regards papers relating to questions of discipline, the practice prevailing in the Department is as stated in the Report of the Tweedmouth Committee: "We understand that, before punishment of an officer, the precise nature of the charge brought against him is explained to him in writing, and that he is allowed to make, on his own behalf, a written explanation. This rule which secures officers against unjust treatment should be strictly adhered to. More than once a claim has also been made that officers should have the right to see all confidential reports made on their conduct. The admission of this claim would, we consider, be detrimental to the control exercised by superior officers." So far as I am aware, no privilege has been accorded to telegraphists which is withheld from sorters. But the extent of the official correspondence which can be shown to the officers must, of course, vary with the circumstances of the case.

  Overtime Payments to Postmen for Increased Rounds.
  MR. FREEMAN THOMAS: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, in the event of a postman's walk having increased in consequence of building and other causes, and his time having exceeded the recognised eight-hour day enough to cause a revision of his walk, payment would be made to him for the overtime worked continuously prior to the revision.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) As soon as a postman's attendance exceeds the proper limit, his duty should be reduced; and if any postman is in this position he should apply to his postmaster on the matter.

  Rural Postmen.
  MR. FREEMAN THOMAS: To ask the Postmaster-General what distance per day has a rural postman to walk to entitle him to be classed as a full-time man.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The distance a rural postman has to walk in order to be classed as a full-time man
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  varies according to circumstances, and it is not possible to give any general answer on the subject.

  Glasgow Post Office.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can state the number of officers employed in the Glasgow Post Office who are in receipt of fourteen shillings per week or under, and how many of these are employed wholly or partly in handling public correspondence.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can state the amount paid out as overtime in the Glasgow Post Office (postal department) during March and April of the present year, and also the total amount paid for overtime to sorting clerks since January, 1900.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I will make inquiry to see whether I can obtain the information desired by the hon. Member.

  Glasgow Post Office—Revision of Staff.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether a revision of the staff employed on postal duties at Glasgow is at present under his consideration; and, if so, when will the result be promulgated.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The Postmaster of Glasgow is now preparing his proposals for a revision of the indoor force. When submitted, they will, of course, have to undergo the usual careful examination, and I cannot at present say when it will be possible to promulgate the result.

  Glasgow Post Office—Clerical and Sorting Duties.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a number of officers employed as sorting clerks at Glasgow have for a number of years been engaged on clerical duties in the Accountant's Branch Inquiry Office; and whether, in view of the fact that the hours of attendance for these duties are on week days 9 a.m. till 5 p.m., and on Saturdays 9 a.m. till 1.30 p.m., with all local and bank holidays

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  off, and that three members of one family are participating in such duties, he will take steps to have all sorting clerks who have been employed on such duties for a longer period than two years removed to the sorting office and placed on duties according to their seniority, so that they may become acquainted with the practical working of the department to which they belong.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I have no information upon this subject, but I will inquire into the matter.

  Post Office Pensions—Boy-sorter Service.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state whether boy-sortership service in the postal service counts effectively for pensions.
  (Answered by Mr. Elliot.) Service as boy sorter does not reckon for pension.

  Promotion in the Civil Service.
  COLONEL WYNDHAM-QUIN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware of the effect of the Treasury ruling of 8th May, 1896, as regards the promotion of holders of minor staff posts to the higher division whereby they are required to revert to second division salary on promotion, thereby causing a loss of salary, while, at the same time, the clerk is called upon to perform work of a higher character and assume greater responsibility; whether he will state the object of such a rule and the authority under which it has been adopted; and will he take steps to have it cancelled, in view of its effect in inflicting monetary loss on those members of this class in the service who prove themselves fit for further advancement.
  (Answered by Mr. Elliot.) The regulation was made by the Treasury as the authority immediately responsible for the salaries of civil servants. Staff posts of the second division were created for superior duties of Accounts, Registration and Supervision: and the salaries attached to them were fixed on a liberal scale, as such posts constitute the prizes of the second division, and it was not contemplated that further promotion was
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  open to the holders. If a clerk who had been promoted from the second division to a staff post were allowed, on further promotion to the first division, to carry with him the salary of the staff post, it might easily happen that he would be receiving a higher salary than a clerk who had entered the first division after a severe examination in subjects of the highest class and had been an equal time in the service. This would be unjust to the other higher division clerks, and it would, moreover, be a waste of public money, as the normal minimum of the higher division (£150 or £200) is much lower than the salary of a staff post. The rule is, in my opinion, equitable to the clerks and necessary in the public interest.

  Annual Leave of Customs Assistant Clerks.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that the Commissioners of Customs, when recommending that the annual leave of their assistant clerks who are engaged upon checking duties should be increased from fourteen to eighteen days, stated that this increase would involve no additional cost to the State, the Treasury will reconsider their previous decision and sanction this increase, which will place these men in the matter of leave on a footing with their colleagues in the majority of Government offices.
  (Answered by Mr. Elliot.) The Treasury are not prepared to grant a general increase of annual leave to abstractors in the departments under their direct control, nor can they make a special exception in the case of such officers when employed in the Customs.

  Vaccination Prosecutions in the Trowbridge and Melksham Unions.
  MR. FULLER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that a medical inspector in his Department has visited the Trowbridge and Melksham Union, and has threatened the vaccination officers of that union with dismissal if they do not institute legal proceedings against defaulters under the Vaccination Acts without the consent of the guardians;

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  and if so, will he state whether the inspector has taken this course in pursuance of instructions from the Local Government Board or of regulations as to his duties, and if the latter, where such regulations are laid down.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) A medical inspector of my Department visited the union and reported to me that both the vaccination officers refused to take proceedings in cases of default under the Vaccination Acts. I am not aware that he threatened them with dismissal. On receipt of the report I wrote to the vaccination officers, pointing out that I could not permit of further delay in their performing their duties in this matter, and I requested to be informed definitely whether they were prepared in future to carry out their duties, including the prosecution of persons in default. The replies of the vaccination officers being unsatisfactory, I have called upon them to resign.

  Fair Rents in County Limerick case of John O'Connell.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state what is the cause of delay in the hearing of the appeal to have a fair rent fixed in the case of John O'Connell, of Glensharrold, Carrickerry, Ardagh, in the county of Limerick, tenant, James O'Grady, Delmege, landlord, the said case having been heard before the County Court Judge of the said county in October, 1901.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The case will probably appear on the first list of appeals for hearing at Limerick, but no date has yet been arranged for a sitting for that district.

  Irrecoverable Poor Rate in Ireland.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state whether poor rates, for which a decree was obtained by rate collectors and returned by the Sheriff marked nulla bona, are to be written off by the County Council of the district as irrecoverable.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) It is not practicable to lay down any general rule for dealing with such cases. For
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  instance, although a return of nulla bona might be made in the case of a person rated as an occupier, the rate might be recovered from subsequent occupiers who, under Section 19 of the 12 and 13 Vic., cap. 104, would be liable for the rate two years after it was made. Every case must be considered and determined according to its own particular circumstances.

  Delay at Level Crossing at Letterkenny.
  MR. M'FADDEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the gates at the Letterkenny level crossing on the new Burtonport and Letterkenny Extension Railway were closed on the 23rd June last from 8 a.m. to 8.25 a.m., and that in consequence carts were kept standing at the crossing and delayed at that time; and that similar delays are of almost daily occurrence at this and also at the level crossing at Oldtown, on the same line, because of an insufficient staff being provided at both these places; and whether, in view of the inconvenience to the public by the gates being kept closed for a long time at these places three times a day, the Board of Works in Ireland will direct the Lough Swilly Railway Company to tell off a man to open and close those gates.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The company state that the delay at Letterkenny referred to is exaggerated, that no complaint was made, and that if complaint had been made operations would have been suspended to allow the passage of vehicles. A man is specially told off to attend to the crossing at train times. The delays at Oldtown never exceeded five minutes, and were not caused by insufficiency of staff.

  Delays on the Burtonport and Letterkenny Railway.
  MR. M'FADDEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the train due to arrive at Letterkenny at 10.50 a.m. on the 23rd June last on the Burtonport and Letterkenny Extension Railway did not arrive until 1 p.m., and in consequence passengers to Londonderry from Letterkenny and stations on the Burtonport line were delayed; and whether, in view of the repeated complaints as to delays and repeated breakdowns on both the Letterkenny and

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  Burtonport lines, he will direct the Board of Works in Ireland to hold an inquiry as to the working of these lines by the Lough Swilly Railway Company.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The delay in this case was due to a leaking engine. The Board of Works is in correspondence with the company with the object of securing a punctual and satisfactory working of the line.
  MR. M'FADDEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the train due at Letterkenny from Londonderry on the Letterkenny line at 1.40 p.m. did not arrive until 4.30 p.m. on the 22nd June last; and whether, in consequence of this breakdown and one the same day on the Burtonport and Letterkenny Extension Railway the Board of Works in Ireland will compel the Lough Swilly Railway Company, which works both lines, to make compensation to Mr. John P. Speer and other Letterkenny passengers prevented on that day by these delays from travelling to Londonderry, or what steps the Board intend to take in reference to the complaints made as to the management of these lines by the said company.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The delay to the 12.10 p.m. train from Londonderry on the date mentioned was due to the detention of earlier trains. No breakdown occurred to the former train. The Board has no power to call upon the company to provide compensation to passengers for alleged losses sustained by the latter.
  MR. M'FADDEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that by reason of a breakdown on the Burtonport and Letterkenny Extension Railway, near Creeslough, County Donegal, on the 22nd day of June last, the train due to arrive at Letterkenny at 10.50 a.m. did not arrive until nearly 7.30 p.m., and, in consequence, upwards of 200 labourers and harvestmen from the Rosses and Gweedore districts proceeding to England in search of work missed the steamboats at Londonderry and were compelled to remain in Letterkenny and Londonderry all night; and
  1386
  whether, in view of the circumstances of these men, the Board of Works in Ireland will see that the Lough Swilly Railway Company, which works this line under agreement with the Board of Works, will make compensation to them for the loss sustained.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The late arrival of this train at Letterkenny was caused by the failure of the engine. Owing to the absence of telegraphic communication there was delay also in preparing a relief train. The Board of Works has been for a considerable time endeavouring to arrange with the company for the provision of telegraphic communication, which, it is now stated, will be established as soon as possible. The Board has no power to take action as suggested at the conclusion of the Question.

  Stanford Court Martial—Alleged Breach of Parole by Officers.
  MR. H. C. RICHARDS: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state what steps he proposes to take to mark the displeasure of the War Office at the breach of their parole not to attend any places of public entertain-till the decision of the Court-martial was given by attendance on the race course at Ascot by officers recently charged in the Stanford Court-martial.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Commander-in-Chief has taken disciplinary action with regard to the officers affected by the action named in the Question.

  Training of Troops in Scotland.
  MR. CROMBIE: To ask the Secretary of State for War what is the acreage available round Stobs Castle, Hawick, for military training, and how many infantry soldiers, regular and auxiliary, will be exercised on this area during the month of July current; and, in the event of the area proving too small, whether he could transfer the training of these troops to Salisbury Plain; also whether it is contemplated to acquire further area for the training of troops in Scotland.

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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Stobs estate, which has been purchased, is of 3,615 acres; negotiations are in progress for the purchase of a further tract of country adjoining this estate. The arrangements for the training in this district are made by the General Officer Commanding, and no details have been forwarded to the War Office. So far as Salisbury Plain is concerned the arrangements for training there have been completed, and they could not now be added to.

  Army Pensions—Case of John Smith, R.F.A.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been directed to the case of John Smith, who, after seven years' service as gunner in the 66th Battery Royal Field Artillery (No. 19,311), has been discharged in ill health upon a pension of 8d. a day for fifteen months from the date of his discharge; and whether, seeing that this man's service has been mainly abroad, in Egypt, South Africa, and India, he will explain why the pension has been fixed for a limited period.
  (Answered by Lord Stanley.) Gunner Smith's ill health was stated by the Medical Board to be not due to his service as a soldier, but to rheumatic fever from which he suffered prior to enlistment. He was not, therefore, eligible for a permanent pension, but, as his disability was regarded as possibly aggravated by service, he was awarded a temporary pension for the maximum period admissible for his length of service.

  Military Position in Northern Nigeria.
  MR. SCHWANN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any further news concerning the military position in Northern Nigeria to communicate.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The information received from Northern Nigeria since 22nd June, the date of the hon. Member's previous Question, is as follows:—Captain Sword, who had been reported as retiring to Bauchi, reached
  1388
  that place without opposition on the 23rd of May. Two days later, the Resident at Bauchi reported that the progress of the Ex-Sultan of Sokoto had been checked by the garrison at Gujba, and that a letter had been received from the Ex-Sultan, in which he stated that he did not wish to fight. On the 17th of June, the Acting High Commissioner reported from Zaria that he had had an interview with a native chief, who told him that he had left the Ex-Sultan at Burmi about the end of May, and that the Ex-Sultan's forces were dwindling rapidly, and that he had great difficulty in finding food for them, and for the large number of women and children with him. The Acting High Commissioner stated that the Ex-Sultan had written to the Resident at Bauchi, describing himself as "a fugitive," and asking to be allowed to travel, and that the Resident had replied that he must surrender unconditionally, but that his life would be spared. He adds that the disturbance was now confined to the small area to the north-east of Bauchi on the Gongola river, and his last telegram, received on 1st July, stated that the situation continued to improve. No further fighting has been reported.

  Imports of Foreign Goods into Crown Colonies.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what were the total imports of foreign goods into the various Crown Colonies in the last completed year for which figures are available; and how much of these imports consisted of manufactured goods.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) It is impossible to give such a Return as the hon. Member asks for. The Colonial Returns ascribe their imports to the country from which they are imported, and a considerable quantity of foreign produce and manufactures exported from the United Kingdom to the colonies is treated by them as imports from the United Kingdom. The aggregate imports from foreign countries into the Crown Colonies in the last year for which the complete Returns are available are given in the Return, Command 1638, recently published.

  South African Constabulary—Terms of Enlistment.
  MR. CAWLEY: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state the terms on which the South African Constabulary were enlisted in 1901.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The explanatory Memorandum containing the conditions of service, a copy of which was furnished to each applicant for enlistment in the South African Constabulary, is too long to quote, but I will place a copy in the Library.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Royal Army Medical Corps.
  DR. THOMPSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he has been able to equalise the allowances of the captains of the Royal Army Medical Corps with those possessed by lieutenants of the same Corps who are attending the Military Medical College in London.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): The question of the grant of mess allowance to captains attending the Medical College has been thoroughly considered and it has not been found possible to make this concession.

  Cape Ragging Court-Martial.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the law officers of the Crown were consulted as to the form and limitation of the charges on which ten officers were tried by Court-martial in reference to the incident at Mount Nelson Hotel on Christmas Eve in December, 1901; and, if not, who is responsible for them.
  MR. BRODRICK: The charges were framed by the Judge-Advocate General according to custom.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the responsibility.
  MR. BRODRICK: Of course I accept responsibility for all that is done under my charge. The Judge-Advocate General has special responsibility, in which I do not interfere.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether documents in connection with the civil action brought by Mr. Frederick Stanford against the seven officers recently tried by Court-martial were submitted to the War Office by Mr. Stanford; and, if so, whether charges of indecency against the said officers were made in the statement of claim of the plaintiff, Mr. Stanford, in the said action.
  MR. BRODRICK: The reply to both Questions is in the affirmative.

  Woolwich Arsenal—Lyddite Committee.
  COLONEL NOLAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will give now or on some near date the names of those he means to appoint to the Committee or Commission on the late serious explosion of melenite, or so-called lyddite, at the Royal Arsenal.
  MR. BRODRICK: The names of the Gentlemen appointed were announced in the Press on the 20th ultimo, viz.:—Rear-Admiral Parr, President; Colonel Hadden, Dr. Dupré, Major Nathan, Captain Thomson, members; Captain Watson, secretary.

  Woolwich Arsenal Explosion—Coroner's Jury's Verdict.
  MR. CROOKS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the verdict and rider found by the Coroner's Jury in the Woolwich explosion inquest have been brought to his notice; and, if so, will he state what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  MR. BRODRICK: The verdict and rider of the Coroner's Jury have been brought to notice, and the recommendations contained in the latter are being carefully considered.

  Woolwich Arsenal—Previous Gunpowder Explosions.
  COLONEL NOLAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that on the occasion of the last gunpowder explosion in the Royal Arsenal in 1868 or 1869, the Coroner's Jury found that the explosion was due to want of proper superintendence, and if, on the occasion of the late lyddite explosion, the Coroner's Jury made remarks in the same direction; and, if so, will he state if any steps will be taken to prevent a third Coroner's Report to the same effect.
  MR. BRODRICK: The hon. Member appears to be misinformed. The explosion alluded to took place in 1867. The Coroner's Jury did not find that it was due to want of proper superintendence. The causes of the recent explosion are under investigation.

  Gulf of Pechili—Assembly of Ships of War.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what are the numbers of the British, American, and Japanese fleets in the north of the Gulf of Pechili or thereabouts at the present time; and whether, seeing that the Russians have fifty-seven vessels at Port Arthur, can he state what is the object of this gathering of fleets.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): The number of British ships at present in the neighbourhood of the Gulf of Pechili is twelve. The Admiralty is unaware that any special gathering of ships has taken place, or that any special object is aimed at by the Governments responsible for the movement of vessels in Chinese waters.

  "Hyacinth" and "Minerva"—Cost of Repairs.
  COLONEL DENNY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what amount of time and money has been incurred in overhauls on the "Hyacinth" and "Minerva" respectively since the date of handing over of the former by the builders, and how much of this has been expended during the
  1392
  financial year ending 31st March, 1903; what has been the mileage run, on trials and commissions respectively, by these ships since the date of intimation to the Boiler Committee that these vessels were ready for comparative trials.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The total amount spent on repairs, alterations, and additions to H.M.S. "Hyacinth" since she was first commissioned on 3rd September, 1900, has been £19,255. The expenditure on H.M.S. "Minerva" for the same period was £7,310. For the financial year ending 31st March, 1903, the figures were:—"Hyacinth" £6,695; "Minerva" £2,890. It is not possible without reference to the dockyard to state the total number of days occupied by the repairs and alterations, nor is it possible to give the information asked for as to mileage run until the Engine Room Registers have been received. If my hon. friend will put another Question dealing with these points, I shall be happy to answer it.

  Grants to the West Indies.
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total cost to the taxpayers of the United Kingdom of the various grants made to the West Indies since the Report of the Royal Commission of 1897; and what is the present annual charge, whether for subsidies to any of the governments of the Islands, or for any steam packet service, or repayment of interest.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,for Mr. J. Chamberlain): Since the report of the Royal Commission and up to the end of the last financial year Parliament has voted in grants or for annual services a total of £306,180. In addition to this £82,000 has been voted in relief of the distress caused by hurricanes, and £250,000 as a grant in aid of the sugar industry pending the coming into force of the Brussels Convention. A yearly contribution of £13,500 is also paid towards the subsidy granted by the Canadian Government for the Canadian and West Indian Steamship Service, and

  1393
  £20,000 a year is paid as the Imperial share of the subsidy for the Direct West India Fruit and Mail Service between England and Jamaica. In reply to the second part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to the Estimates for Colonial Services, Class V., Vote 3. These grants, excluding the hurricane grants have been mainly necessitated by the depression of the sugar industry in the West Indies, due, in the words of the Royal Commission, "to the competition of other sugar-producing countries and in a special degree to the competition of beet sugar produced under a system of bounties."

  Canadian Militia.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any correspondence has passed between the Canadian Government and His Majesty's Government in regard to the mode of appointment of the commandant of the Canadian Militia; and whether the Canadian Government have asked for Amendments to the British North America Act with this object in view.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): The answer is in the negative in regard to both parts of the Question, but I have invited the Dominion Government to discuss with His Majesty's Government the question of some proposed Amendments in the Dominion Militia Act.

  Re-stocking of South African Farms—Canadian Cattle.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Canadian Government have complained to His Majesty's Government in regard to preference shown other countries in the matter of the purchase of horses and cattle required for the re-stocking of farms in South Africa.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): The question of obtaining cattle from Canada for the purpose of re-stocking farms in South Africa was brought before me by the High Commissioner, and his representations were communicated to Viscount Milner. I am informed, however, that Lord
  1394
  Milner's technical advisers in this matter preferred, for re-stocking purposes, stock from tick-infected countries, as experience had shown that they were less liable to, and better able to resist, the endemic diseases of cattle in South Africa than cattle from Canada or from this country. I have not received any complaint from the Government of Canada.

  Canadian Mails—Galway as a Port of Call.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any negotiations have taken place with the Canadian Government with a view to making Galway the port of call for the new Transatlantic line of steamers subsidised by the Canadian Government; and, if so, whether he can state the position in which these negotiations now stand.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): No negotiations have taken place. I understand that the result of the tenders for a new Transatlantic Service was not successful.

  Indian Army—Privilege Leave and Furlough.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that British officers of the Indian Army are not permitted to combine privilege leave with a year's leave of absence out of India, thus necessitating in some cases the return of an officer to Bombay from privilege leave spent in the United Kingdom for the purpose of commencing the year's leave which may be due to him; and whether privilege leave and furlough in the Indian Army may be permitted to run concurrently as in the Indian Civil Service.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): I am aware that under the regulations now in force military officers (with the exception of those in civil employ) are not permitted to combine privilege leave with furlough out of India. I believe that the Government of India are looking into this question, and until I hear from them I must postpone any expression of opinion upon the proposed concession.

  Cheap Fares for Indian Officials.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will use his influence with the Peninsular and Oriental Steamship Company to reduce the fares of officers and civil servants when coming home on leave, who are at present charged at the same rate as the general public.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: A Committee has been appointed to report on questions relating to the mail service with India, and certain questions in regard to passages in which the Government is interested will be considered by them.

  British Troops in India—Officers' Leave.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the fact that the establishment of British Officers per Native infantry battalion has recently been increased from eight to twelve, that under the previous regulations two officers per battalion were permitted to be absent together on a year's leave, thus according them one year's leave after every three years' service, and that by the altered regulations officers now obtain one year's leave only after every five years service, he will recommend that, in view of the increased British establishment, three officers per battalion be permitted a year's leave of absence at the same time.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Under the Leave Rules for the Indian Army (1886) leave is granted at the discretion of the Lieutenant-Generals of the four commands. It does not seem to me to be advisable to interfere with this discretion.

  Land Concessions in British Central Africa.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government will furnish the House with information as to concessions of land, which have been granted to individuals or companies in the British Central African Protectorate and other territories within the conventional basin of the Congo and the free-trade zone, as indicated by the Berlin General Act of
  1396
  1885, which are subject to British control, showing their extent and the conditions under which they are held.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): Information respecting concessions of land in the Uganda and East Africa Protectorates will be found in the Paper laid on Friday last. As regards British Central Africa, grants of Crown land have been made to the company engaging in the construction of the railway in the Protectorate, subject to the conditions contained in the published contract. Beside these various small areas have been let at times for farming and building purposes.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: And if there is any large concession will a Return be granted?
  LORD CRANBORNE: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean with regard to Central Africa?
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Yes.
  LORD CRANBORNE: All will be contained in the published contract.

  British Attachés to the Japanese Army.
  THE MASTER OF ELIBANK: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state if any arrangement has been made with the Japanese Government as regards officers of the British Service being attached to the Japanese Forces for the purpose of studying the military system and language of the country; and, if so, when will the appointment of officers be announced.
  LORD CRANBORNE: No such arrangement has been made, but the matter will not escape attention.

  Lunacy and Drunkenness in Glasgow.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the inquiry instituted by the Corporation of Glasgow into the connection between the increase of lunacy and drunkenness; whether he is aware that it is suggested that the increase of

  1397
  lunacy in this respect is due to the inferior quality of the spirit now sold in lieu of genuine malt whisky; and whether the Government officiate will give any assistance in this inquiry.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE,): I have no official information on the subject of the inquiry mentioned. If invited to do so by the Corporation of Glasgow, the Inland Revenue officials would be happy to supply such information as their records and experience may enable them properly to give.

  Whisky Distillation.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will grant a Return showing the total quantity of malt and grain whisky distilled during last year from pot and patent stills respectively; also a Return showing the quantity of patent-still spirit despatched duty paid and under bond from England to Scotland for the same period for the purpose of being made up as whisky.
  *MR. RITCHIE: I am afraid I cannot grant the suggested Returns. The Board of Inland Revenue have no official information on the matters referred to. Their Returns do not distinguish between pot-still and patent-still spirits.

  Scotch Whisky in Tied Houses.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will cause instructions to be issued to the excise officials to prevent the use of beet molasses, decayed and damaged maize, the refuse of the sugar refineries, and other such inferior and injurious substances in the manufacture of patent-still spirit for potable purposes; and whether he is aware that such spirit distilled in England is that which is now almost exclusively used in the tied houses owned by brewers and sold to the public as Scotch whisky.
  *MR. RITCHIE: The Board of Inland Revenue have no authority to interfere with the discretion of distillers as regards the materials used by them. I have no reason to believe that materials
  1398
  injurious to health are used in the distilleries of the United Kingdom; and I am satisfied that the hon. Member's allegation with regard to tied houses, owned by brewers, is an unwarrantable reflection upon a trade that, with possibly a few rare exceptions, is, in my opinion, honestly and honourably conducted.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Scotch whisky sold in tied houses costs ninepence a gallon?
  MR. JOYCE: Warranted to kill at forty rods!
  No answer was returned.

  Government Departments—Distribution of Duties.
  MR. HOULT: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can now announce the names of all the members of the Committee appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the position and duties of the various Government Departments, with the view to consolidate the commercial and trade interests of the country in one Department.
  *MR. RITCHIE: Besides Lord Jersey, as Chairman, the following Gentlemen have agreed to serve: the Right Hon. Sir John Gorst, Sir James Mackay, G C.M.G., K.C.I.E., member of the India Council, Sir Charles Ryan, K.C.B., late Comptroller and Auditor-General. I may say I hope very shortly to be able to add another name.

  Licence Reduction—Action by the Wandsworth Justices.
  MR. THORNTON: On behalf of the hon. Member for Wandsworth I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a letter issued by the clerk to the justices for the Wandsworth Division, inviting persons interested in licensed premises within a specified area in the borough of Wandsworth to submit, not later than the end of August next, a comprehensive scheme, showing a substantial reduction in the number of such licensed premises, and intimating that

  1399
  in the event of such scheme being considered by the justices unsatisfactory or insufficient, they would themselves deal with the question at the general annual licensing meeting for 1904; and, if so, will he consider the advisability, this session or next, of taking steps to prevent the confiscation of licensed property.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,): Yes, Sir, I have seen a copy of the letter in question. With regard to the second paragraph of the Question, the matter is, as I think my hon. friend knows, now enjoying the serious attention of the Government, who desire to prevent the occurrence of what he fears.
  MR. GALLOWAY: May I ask whether the circular is within the statutory powers of the magistrates, and, if not, what action can the licensed victuallers take when such unjust and illegal action is taken?
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Consult a solicitor.
  *MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: I am not at all disposed to express an opinion as to the description of this action as given by the hon. Member. The duties of the licensing justices have been defined by the Lord Chancellor in another place, and I must refer my hon. friend to that pronouncement.

  Motor-Car Outrage at Wimbledon.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to an outrage perpetrated at Wimbledon last Wednesday; and if he will consider the advisability of offering a further reward for such evidence as will secure the conviction of the offender.
  *MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: The case to which I understand the hon. Member to refer—viz., the frightening and injury of two polo ponies by a motor-car which did not stop when the accident occurred has been reported to the police by the owner of the ponies, who has offered a
  1400
  reward of £25 for evidence leading to the conviction of the driver or owner of the car. It is contrary to the settled practice of the Home Office to offer rewards for the conviction of offenders, and it is not proposed to make any exception to the rule in this case. If the owner's offer is ineffective it is not likely that a further offer from the police would be successful.

  Post Office—Wages Committee.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his endeavour to form a Committee of Inquiry into the wages of certain classes of Post Office employees has been successful, and can he give the names of the gentlemen willing to serve appointed by him, and when will the Committee commence its sittings.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): I am not yet in a position to make any statement on the question.

  Magisterial Jurisdiction.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the recent case before the magistrates at Southport in which a member of the bench had been himself convicted of an offence similar to that which was on trial before him; and, if so, whether he will take steps to prevent a magistrate adjudicating in future under such circumstances.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,): Yes Sir, my attention has been called to this case, but the control of the magistracy does not rest with the Attorney-General, and therefore I do not feel that I can take any action in the matter.

  Burtonport Train Delays.
  *MR. HUGH LAW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that all the trains from Londonderry and Letterkenny to Burtonport on the Burtonport and Letterkenny Extension Railway were on the days of the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th of June last from two hours to six hours late in arriving at Burtonport, and that one train (the 5 p.m.) on the 24th did not arrive at all, he will say what action the Board

  1401
  of Works propose to take in reference to the failure of the Lough Swilly Railway Company in working the line.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The delays were due to failure of engines. The 5 p.m. train on the 24th June arrived at 11.45. The Board of Works is giving special attention to the matter with the object of securing punctual and satisfactory working of the line.

  Plains of Boyle—Roscommon.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the recent letting of a grazing farm of eighty-six Irish acres at Ballymore, on the Plains of Boyle, and to the fact that when the farm had been surrendered to the agent for the landlord, five tenants with small congested holdings adjoining memorialised the agent to have the grazing farm cut up and divided between them, offering either to pay a fine for the portions allotted to them, or such rent as the outgoing tenant had paid—viz., £1 11s. per acre, and that, notwithstanding these tenants' offer, the lands were let to a large grazier at a rent of £1 5s. per acre; and whether he is aware that these tenants were the lineal descendants of the men who were evicted off this land in 1846; and, if so, whether he will consent to the scheduling of this portion of County Roscommon under the Congested Districts Clause of the Land Bill, with a view of restoring these descendants of evicted tenants to their native holdings.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg also to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the plains of Boyle, off which hundreds of families were evicted in years gone by, is outside the operation of the Congested Districts Board, and of the circumstances in which families are living on adjoining lands, he will include these tracts for resettlement in the Land Bill now before the House.
  MR. WYNDHAM: These lands can, under the Bill, be purchased from the owner if willing to sell. If so purchased the Bill contains ample powers for resettlement.

  Smerwick Pier.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the need for an extension of the pier at Smerwick, and the impossibility of the Council supplying any funds owing to the high rates at present, he will give special consideration to this case.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Congested Districts Board at its last meeting decided to adhere to the terms of its former proposal—namely to contribute towards the cost of this work if undertaken by the County. I cannot hold out any hope that the work will be carried out under the Marine Works Act.

  Cork Police Inquiry—Mr. Riordan's Fine.
  MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a recent police inquiry at Cork, when the Court, consisting of two district inspectors, imposed a fine of £5 on Mr. J. F. Riordan, solicitor, who objected to be examined in the case on the ground that anything that had occurred between himself and Constable Sullivan had relation to a matter in which he was professionally engaged and was consequently privileged; whether he is aware that Mr. Riordan's action was supported by two senior leading members of his profession who were present at the inquiry; whether such action of the two district inspectors is sanctioned by him; and whether it is the intention of the constabulary authorities to levy the fine.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The question put to Mr. Riordan, and which he refused to answer, is this: "Do you recollect Constable Sullivan having called at your office at any time?" He admitted that the constable was not his client. He was not asked any question as to whether the constable had made any communication to him, or if so, what was the nature of that communication. The Court of Inquiry ordered Mr. Riordan to answer, as no question of privilege arose. On his declining to do so, the Court imposed a fine as stated. In this the Court acted within its statutory rights, and seems to have been justified in

  1403
  its action by the facts. If its order is illegal, Mr. Riordan has his remedy. The question of levying the fine is under consideration.
  MR. FLYNN: Was this action of the inspector in accordance with law?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have answered that part of the Question. The Committee acted within its statutory powers, and if the order is illegal, Mr. Riordan has his remedy at law.
  MR. CREAN: Is there any precedent for such an order?
  MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN: Does the right hon. Gentleman approve of this action?
  MR. WYNDHAM: It would be most improper for me to express either approval or disapproval.
  MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN: Will the fine be levied by the police authorities?
  MR. WYNDHAM: That, I have said, is under consideration.

  Burtonport and Letterkenny Railway.
  MR. M'FADDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Board of Works in Ireland has been drawn to the fact that on the 15th day of June last over 100 passengers were carried in open trucks or timber wagons (without any protection on the sides of the wagons) on the Burtonport and Letterkenny Extension Railway by the Lough Swilly Railway Company, which works the line, and that on the same occasion passengers were carried in each of the guard's and luggage vans; and, if so, will he say what remedy the Board of Works propose to adopt to compel the railway company to provide proper accommodation for the public under the terms of the working agreement.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The facts appear to be correctly stated. The Board of Works is in correspondence with the company, with the object of securing a remedy against the want of adequate accommodation in future.

  M'Farlane's Estate.
  MR. DILLONI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the case of Henry James M'Farlane, owner, v. William Joseph Hepburn, petitioner, which is a petition for the sale of the estate of the owner, has been pending in the Land Judges Court in Ireland since the 9th of March, 1881, and that an absolute order was made for the sale so far back as the 14th of June, 1881, he will ascertain on what grounds and by what authority this case was transferred from the Land Judge's Court to the Court of the Irish Land Commission; and whether, seeing that the latter Court has since the beginning of the present year adjourned the case till the next sittings, and that the latter adjournment was decided upon behind the back of the tenants, who are anxious for a sale of the lands, and on a day in which the case had not been listed for hearing, he will state what explanation, if any, its officials connected with the Land Judges Department and the Land Commission have to make for the irregularities which have taken place in this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Justice Ross has not interfered with this estate, inasmuch as he is personally interested in it. The matter was transferred, not to the Land Commission, but to Mr. Justice Meredith, sitting as a Land Judge by virtue of the regulations made pursuant to Section 23 of the Land Law Act, 1896. I understand that the estate would long since have been sold but for the action of a few of the tenants in claiming rights which were always exclusively reserved. In consequence of this the negotiations fell through, and all the parties interested in the estate served notice to dismiss the petition for sale. This motion Judge Meredith adjourned to October.
  MR. DILLON: What are the rights exclusively retained? Are they the gaming rights?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give notice of that Question.

  Irish Assistant Prison Matrons.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that assistant matrons in English prisons are in receipt of higher salaries than those paid to matrons employed in a similar capacity in Ireland, and that the position of the former is superior to that of the latter in regard to dietary arrangements and annual holidays, steps will be taken to place both classes on a footing of equality.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This is a matter for Departmental consideration. Any representations that may be made by these officers in the Irish Service will be duly considered by the Prisons Board.

  South Sligo Police.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the peaceable character of South Sligo generally, he will consider the advisability of having the extra police at present stationed in protection huts on the grazing farms of Leitrim Hill and Achonry removed from those districts.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The police on duty at the places named belong to the ordinary force of the county, for which no charge is locally made. The extra force was withdrawn last month.

  Rostrevor Demonstration.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds it has been decided to permit a demonstration on 13th July at Rostrevor, in the County Down; whether any complaints have been received from the Roman Catholic population of that district as to the proposed demonstration, and what reply has been made to those complaints.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have nothing to add to my previous replies on this subject.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Has the right hon. Gentleman received a resolution from the Dundalk Catholics
  1406
  expressing apprehension of the use of firearms, and will he take steps to prevent it?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The resolution has not been brought to my immediate notice. I will see what can be done.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Has the right hon. Gentleman received a resolution from the Catholics of Rostrevor on the subject?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have nothing to add to the reply I have already given.

  Lung Grazing Lands.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board can state how many houses have been built, and how many farms have been formed out of the grazing lands in the neighbourhood of Lung, adjacent to the Dillon estate; what has been the cost of this transaction; what was the fine required from prospective tenants; and how many tenants have been put into occupation of these houses and lands.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This question involves local inquiry, and I must ask the hon. Member to postpone it until Wednesday.

  Boyle—Working-Class Housing Scheme.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to an application to the Local Government Board from the Boyle Town Commissioners for a supplemental loan of £800 for the erection of cottages under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts; and if he can explain the delay in giving sanction for the issuing of this supplemental loan.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The application must be considered jointly with an application for a loan of £6,050 for a water supply. The margin of borrowing power may not be sufficient to admit of both loans.

  Killashee Dispensary Doctor.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board are aware that on the election of Dr. O'Riordan as medical officer of the Killashee dispensary district he undertook, inaccordance with the advertisement, to reside at Killashee, and that complaints have been made that Dr. O'Riordan has failed to comply with that condition, and continues to reside at Lanesborough on the outskirts of the district; and, if so, what steps will the Local Government Board take in the interests of the sick poor to compel Dr. O'Riordan to comply with the conditions of his original appointment.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Dr. O'Riordan is anxious to take up his residence at Killashee and is endeavouring to procure a suitable house or lodgings there. The matter will receive the attention of the Local Government Board.
  MR. J. R FARRELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Board of Guardians have altered the terms of the appointment by sixteen votes to two without notice given?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I do not quite see the relevance of that question.
  MR. JOHN O'DONNELL,): Has not the parish priest of the district made strong representations?
  MR. J. R FARRELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole agitation against this doctor has been got up by a local grazier?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Irish Land Purchase—Joint Owners.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that many estates in Ireland are held jointly by several persons; whether under the existing provisions of the Land Bill a small minority of co-owners could prevent a sale taking place; and, if so, whether he will consider the desirability of inserting a clause in the Bill with a view to enable
  1408
  a majority of owners in such cases to carry out a sale on the principle applied to the tenants.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am aware that there are some estates so circumstanced, but I believe they are few in number. The difficulty might possibly be adequately met by conferring on the Judicial Commissioner powers to partition such estates, somewhat similar to those now enjoyed by the Land Judge under the Landed Estates Court Act. The matter is under consideration.
  MR. FLYNN: Will there be power under the Land Act to purchase these estates?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes.

  Irish Ancient Monuments.
  *MR. HUGH LAW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if he is willing to introduce into the Land Bill provisions for the protection of ancient monuments of historical interest not already vested in any public authority.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I would refer the hon. Member to the 19th Section of the Local Government Act of 1898, which, amongst other things, enables the County Council in addition to the Board of Works, at the request of the owner, to become guardians of ancient monuments and to prosecute those who injure them. I think it would be a thousand pities to hand them over to small occupiers, and I shall introduce words to safeguard these monuments in the national interest.

  Fair Tolls.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether any provision is made for the sale of tolls of fairs by landowners whose lands may be sold under the present Bill; and, if not, will he insert a provision giving the local authority of the district where such tolls are levied the right to purchase same for the benefit of the locality.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Tolls, such as are mentioned in the Question, are altogether outside the scope of the Land Bill. The 31st Section of the Local Government

  1409
  Act of 1898 enables an Urban District Council to purchase such tolls in the most important instances.

  Bruree Police.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if he will state why extra police have been drafted into the village of Bruree, in the county of Limerick; and on whom will the cost fall.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Three constables were sent to Bruree for the better protection of life and property. The cost will be paid from the Constabulary Vote.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: What was the necessity for the protection of life and property?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have no information on that subject.

  County Mayo Piers.
  MR. O'KELLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state when it is proposed to commence the building of the new piers at Belmullet, Mallaranny, and Inishlyre, seeing that the County Council of Mayo, at its meeting on the 23rd instant, accepted the schemes and agreed to make the necessary contribution; and if he will state what proportion of its unexpended grants under the Labourers Acts the county of Mayo will be asked to surrender under these schemes.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Necessary inquiries are still being made into the Mallaranny-Belmullet scheme, and negotiations are proceeding with the Midland Great Western Railway Company in reference to Inishlyre. As the negotiations are still pending I regret I am not able to give any further information in the matter.

  Irish Railway Rates.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLIN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that it costs as much to get an article from Galway to Dublin as it does to bring the same from America; and, if so, can he take any steps in the matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: At the request of my right hon. friend I will reply to this and the next Question on the Paper. The Department of Agriculture is constantly investigating representations affecting railway transit and railway rates, and if specific instances of unfair or unreasonable charges by Irish carrying companies are furnished to the Department inquiries will forthwith be made.
  The following was the second Question referred to.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLIN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Irish farmer, particularly in the West of Ireland, is placed at a disadvantage with respect to foreign competition on account of the charges for the carriage of goods and agricultural products levied by Irish railways; and that the passenger fares are nearly double those charged in other countries; and, if so, whether he intends taking steps in the direction of putting an end to such charges.

  Law as to Contempt of Court in Ireland.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether, and, if so, when, the Government will afford facilities for the introduction and passage through this House of a Bill to amend the law relating to Contempt of Court in Ireland.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): This Question should properly be addressed to my right hon. friend the Prime Minister, as any Bill dealing with contempt of court must be general in its application, and not confined to Ireland.

  Valentia Island Mails.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that inconvenience is caused to the inhabitants of Valentia Island, County Kerry, by the practice of retaining at Cahirciveen letters which arrive by the afternoon train; and, in view of the short distance to the ferry, whether arrangements could be made to forward the letters for distribution on the same evening.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Inquiry is being made on the subject, and I will send a reply to the hon. Member as soon as it is completed.

  Irish Post Offices—Emigration Notices.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will state who is responsible for having cards encouraging emigration exhibited in Irish post offices; and whether, in view of the numbers now emigrating, steps will be taken to have those cards taken down.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Notices giving information to intending emigrants to the colonies have been exhibited at all post offices in the United Kingdom for many years. I see no reason for discontinuing the practice.

  Keadue Post Office.
  MR. JAMES O'KELLY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the post office at Keadue, County Roscommon, is carried on in licensed premises, and that the holder of the licence was fined for selling intoxicating drink on Sunday, 19th May, 1903; and, if so, will he consider whether more suitable location can be found for the post office.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is frequently impossible in Ireland to find suitable candidates for appointment as sub-postmaster who are unconnected with public houses, but I will have inquiry made as regards Keadue.

  Limerick Post Office—Learners.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the effect of the admission of large numbers of unpaid learners to the Limerick Post Office, calculated upon the status of the service, the Department will see its way to discontinue the holding of competitive examinations until the present learners at Limerick have been placed on the establishment.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The class of unpaid learners at Limerick will be abolished as soon as practicable. All future entrants will be employed in a paid capacity and will rank for appointment below the present learners. In
  1412
  these circumstances, competitions will be held as usual when required.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General how many male learners and female unpaid learners are attached to the postal and telegraph department in Limerick; and whether, in view of the lack of vacancies for established appointments at that office, he will say what steps the Department propose to take to provide for such learners within a reasonable time.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The number of male learners at Limerick is, at present, nine, of whom five are in receipt of pay, and of female unpaid learners there are three. During the last nineteen months the number placed on the establishment—viz., four male and four female learners, is, I think satisfactory, and two more female learners will shortly receive established appointments. In these circumstances I hope all the learners will be provided for within a reasonable time.

  Railway Crossings in County Kerry.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the delays occasioned by the Great Southern and Western Railway Company and their officials to the people at the railway crossings at Cahirciveen and Kells, County Kerry; and whether, in view of the representations on this subject that have been frequently made to the Board of Trade by the Cahirciveen Rural District Council, and that the medical officer of the district has been kept waiting for periods, amounting in some cases to thirty minutes, when going on sick calls, steps will be taken to compel the railway company to carry out shunting operations at these two points without causing inconvenience to the public.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BONAR LAW,): A general complaint of the delay to road traffic at these crossings has been made to the Board of Trade by the Rural District Council. The railway company state no unnecessary delay is caused to the public using the roads, and the Board

  1413
  have informed the Council that if specific instances of the delays complained of are given they will take whatever further steps are possible.

  Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway.
  DR. THOMPSON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade, whether, having regard to the fact that his attention has been frequently called to the irregularities and breach of the Board of Trade regulations by the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company, and to the fact that notwithstanding official promises no action has been taken, he will, in view of the dissatisfaction with the management and control of this Railway Company, take immediate steps to enforce the regulations of his Department.
  MR. BONAR LAW: The Railway Company have explained to the Board of Trade that in consequence of the heavy increase in the traffic and in the number of trains required since the opening of the Camdonagh and Burtonport Extensions, the number of goods brake vans has been found to be insufficient. They have, however, arranged for the provision of additional vans, and the brake gear has all been received and is being fitted. The Company promise that no time shall be lost in providing the equipment necessary to make compliance with the Board of Trade's Order under the Regulation of Railways Act, 1889.

  Fiscal Inquiry.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if, during the process of inquiry into the question of preferential tariffs and retaliatory duties, His Majesty's Government will furnish a full account of the total cost of Imperial Defence, including India; and also the cost of the Consular and Diplomatic Service, showing the cost to the mother country, to India, and to the different Crown and self-governing colonies, of Defence and of Consular and Diplomatic Services.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I do not see very clearly what connection there is between the information asked for in the
  1414
  inquiry and preferential tariffs, and I learn there would be considerable difficulty in preparing the Return of the kind desired; but the hon. Gentleman will find a good deal of information on the subject on pages 42 and 43 of the Blue-book which gives an account of the Conference between the Colonial Premiers and the representatives of His Majesty's Government.
  MR. CATHCART WASON: We want the information from the Government.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Blue-book is published under authority.

  Reduction of Armaments.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether His Majesty's Government adheres to Lord Salisbury's despatch of 14th February, 1899, to Sir C. Scott, accepting the Russian proposal for a conference to discuss the best methods of bringing about the diminution of armaments by land and sea; whether the Government has taken into consideration the Resolution of the First Commission of the Hague Conference recording its opinion that a further examination of the question by the Powers would prove a great benefit to humanity; and whether, having regard to the increased expenditure on naval armaments since the date of Lord Salisbury's despatch, the Government will take the initiative of inviting the Powers to make another attempt to deal with this question by conference or otherwise.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: His Majesty's Government have not altered their views on this subject, and if any of the Great Powers of Europe will take any initiative steps in the matter we shall be very glad to join them; but it must be remembered that the expenditure for the British Fleet, alone amongst the fleets of the world, or almost alone, is mainly of a defensive character, and that the other fleets of the world cannot claim to have that character. Under these circumstances I think the initiative should come from others.

  President Loubet's Visit.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if any arrangement can be made to enable Members of the House of Commons to show their appreciation of President Loubet's visit and the friendly feeling animating a neighbouring nation.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not quite know what the hon. Gentleman has in view when he talks of some method of showing our appreciation of President Loubet's visit. Perhaps it would be by a Resolution of this House.
  MR. LAMBERT: No, no.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That is the only mark of the sentiment of this House which I think it would be possible for us to give; and I have not the slightest doubt that if a Resolution of congratulation was proposed in this House it would be unanimously carried, and, indeed, enthusiastically received on both sides of the House and in every quarter of the House. But the hon. Gentleman will remember that we have to be very careful about starting new precedents, especially new precedents having anything in them of a ceremonial character. If it is done in the case of President Loubet, it could never be refused in the case of any subsequent visit of the representative of a great Power to this country without an implied slight; and such a visit might be paid under circumstances in which, while the great majority of the House would no doubt desire to show their appreciation, a section of the House perhaps might use their right of debate to express sentiments which would certainly not conduce to international harmony. Under these circumstances, much as I sympathise with the object of the hon. Member, I think it would be unfortunate if we were to endeavour to establish a new precedent on this occasion.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that under the present Rules it is impossible for any private Member to suggest such a Resolution as the right
  1416
  hon. Gentleman refers to, and that the only method is by the action of the Government?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Of course it would be possible for the Government to propose such a Resolution, and if it were proposed I am quite certain it would be universally accepted. What I endeavoured to point out to the House was that, however happy such a proceeding might be in the present circumstances, I can easily imagine circumstances under which it would not be unanimously accepted.
  MR. LAMBERT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether facilities will be given to the House of Commons to join in the reception of President Loubet?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not know how that can be done—President Loubet arrives at Victoria in an hour and a half—unless we adjourn to the station to meet him.

  Taxation of Food Imports.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if the Cabinet inquiry on fiscal policy has reached a stage sufficiently definite to enable the Government to say if they intend to propose a tax on food imports.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid that I have no information to give the hon. Member on the subject.

  Irish Land Bill.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMB: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the nature and importance of the Irish Land Bill, he can give an assurance that a sufficient interval will be allowed to elapse between the conclusion of the Committee and the commencement of the Report stages of the Bill; and whether he can indicate what number of days interval he proposes to allow.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid I cannot give any precise estimate as to the number of days that will elapse between the two stages, but in view of the amount of business in hand it will be substantial.

  The Illness of the Pope.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is in the possession of the Foreign Office any information, other than that in the Press, as to the health of his Holiness the Pope.
  LORD CRANBORNE: I am sorry to say that, though we all share in the profound regret at the serious illness of his Holiness, I have no information to give to the House.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the business will be on Thursday and Friday.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope the Committee stage of the Irish Land Bill will terminate to-morrow (Tuesday). In that event I shall take the South African Loans Bill on Wednesday. On Thursday the Supply will be the Education Vote, and on Friday I propose to take the Naval Works Loans Bill.
  MR. LOUGH: When will the Sugar Convention Bill be taken, and will any information be distributed as to the doings of the secret Commission in Brussels.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: What the hon. Gentleman calls "the secret doings," I think I have explained all about. They are not secret at all. They are simply the doings of a Commission whose reports are, from the nature of the Convention, not to be secret at all, but are to come to us through the Belgian Government. I do not know whether there is any information relative to the Bill which can with advantage be circulated, but I will inquire. I cannot give the precise date when the Bill will be taken.

  NEW WRIT.
  New Writ for the county of Durham (Barnard Castle Division), in the room of Sir Joseph Whitwell Pease, Baronet, deceased.—(Mr. Herbert Gladstone.)
  PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO CHILDREN (AMENDMENT) BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; to be read a second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 264.]
NEW BILL.
  MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
  "To amend the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882," presented by Mr. Cripps; supported by Sir John Gorst and Mr. Bousfield; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 265.]

  IRISH LAND BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Clause 43:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 22, line 29, to leave out from the word 'estate,' to end of line 30, and insert the words 'agreed to be sold within five years after the commencement of this Act a bonus of fifteen per centum of the amount of the purchase money of said estate, such bonus to be paid upon the completion of the sale.'"—(Mr. John Redmond.)
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.'"
  MR. FLYNNsaid that when the proceedings on the Bill were interrupted last week they had had some discussion with regard to the desirability of imposing a limit of time, and he was bound to say that in his opinion the arguments of the hon. and learned Member for Waterford held the field. He did not suppose his hon. friend desired that the point should be discussed at any length, but unquestionably it was a matter of enormous importance to the people of Ireland. Some limit of a reasonable character ought certainly to be placed in the Act because it would indirectly induce a certain number of landlords to sell, who otherwise might be inclined to

  1419
  hold out for some change in the condition of things, or for some imaginary increased advantages. This limit was desirable if the Act was to be successfully worked during the present generation. No doubt a very considerable number of landlords would be induced to sell under the Bill, but they were apprehensive that a certain section, who would never learn anything from past experience or from the lessons of legislation or agitation, would hold out under some delusion that they would get better terms for themselves or advantage their class. That would create a feeling of irritation in the minds of the tenants who would thereby be excluded from the benefits of the Act which other tenants all around them were enjoying. Could not the right hon. Gentleman see his way to acceding to the insertion of some limit, of which he was sure all the tenants, as well as a large proportion of the landlords, were in favour.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDasked if the Chief Secretary was in a position to add anything to his previous statement. He fully recognised there was nothing to be gained by prolonging the debate.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,)said the Government still occupied the position he took up the other night. He had had an opportunity of consulting with his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on many points of the Bill, and his right hon. friend was still of the opinion he was last week—viz., that however small, on the merits, might be the danger of a time limit, that was a responsibility which they could not undertake. It should be remembered that some tens of thousands of persons might come to register their names, but that might not give sufficient ground for believing that the loans would be demanded. On the other hand, the money market was so sensitive at these times in contemplating the possibility of that danger, that they ought not to run the risk of frightening the market. The Government were responsible for financing this Bill, and they held that the blame for any such lamentable occurrence would fall upon them. They quite
  1420
  understood the arguments of hon. Members opposite, but from the financial point of view they were sure they were doing their duty in remaining firm in this matter. Supposing there was an alarm, as there might be, in consequence of tens of thousands of persons registering their names, what would happen? The new stock would be issued at a serious discount, and the loss would fall on the Irish Development Grant, and therefore on the Irish peasant proprietors. It followed that Ireland herself was interested in seeing that the finances of this Bill commended themselves to those who were best capable of giving an opinion on financial matters. The position of the Government was that, while they could not accept the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member, they favoured an all round distribution of a bonus of 12 per cent., leaving the rest of the Bill in respect to finance intact. That view had been very carefully considered by the Government; and although he admitted that hon. Members opposite were entitled to express their views, he could hold out no hope that the Amendment could be accepted.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he quite saw that there were financial objections which induced the Government to take up the position they had done; but might he observe that there could hardly be the same objection to giving power to the Treasury to fix a limit at some future date? He had an Amendment on the Paper to provide—
  "That if at any time within three years after the passing of this Act the Treasury deem it expedient to limit a time after which such percentage shall not be payable, or to prescribe a reduced percentage, it shall be lawful for the Treasury, and in its discretion, to appoint a day not later than the 1st day of January, 1910, as the last day upon which applications under the first section of this Act may be made, or to declare and prescribe as to subsequent applications a different and lower scale than that in said First Schedule mentioned."
  It seemed to him that, however great might be the objection to the time limit now, it was a wholly different question to say whether in the years to come the Treasury might not take it upon themselves to fix a limit. But, of course, if the Government were determined in this matter not to accept this Amendment in any shape or form he would not take up the time of the Committee by moving it.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the question was that they were not dealing with ascertained facts, but with the impression which their proceedings might create in the minds of financiers, and on that score objection might also be taken to the Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman. As he had said, the money market was very sensitive, and they were bound to err on the side of caution.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he would not move his Amendment; but was it not rather unfair that those landlords who held out, on the policy of the "dog in the manger," should get the benefit? He thought that the landlords who came in immediately were entitled to something more than those who wanted to squeeze the last drop out of their tenants.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he could not go further than he had already stated. Under Clause 43 as it stood the Treasury had power to revise the rates. His own opinion was that those landlords who came in now should do better than those who came in later.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that, although he and his friends held very strong views on this matter, it was manifest, after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, that it would be a waste of time to continue the discussion, and he begged leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. O'DOHERTYsaid he had an Amendent on the Paper to leave out, in line 29, first sub-section of Clause 43 the word "percentage," and to insert "sum." The Amendment had reference to the distribution of the bonus, but as the right hon. Gentleman said that this could be better discussed on the schedule he would withdraw it now, reserving his right to move it on the Report stage.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he felt himself bound to the hon. Member for East Mayo not to settle this question of the distribution of the bonus until they reached the schedule, although he thought it could be settled now.
  MR. DILLONsaid he would rather have it settled on the schedule.
  *MR. O'DOHERTYasked if he was to understand the right hon. Gentleman as stating that it was the intention of the Government to give a 12 per cent. bonus all round?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that in order that there might be no mistake about the matter he might say that it would carry out the views of the Government if he accepted the Amendment of the hon. Member for Mid Armagh to leave out from "percentage" and insert "of 12 per cent. upon the amount of the purchase money under the Land Purchase Act." But he agreed with the hon. Member for East Mayo that they should wait for discussion on the point till the schedule was reached.
  MR. TULLYsaid he wished to know the effect of the words in Sub-section 4, which provided that the section should not apply to any estate sold by the Land Judge; where either a Receiver had been appointed over the estate, or the estate was so circumstanced that it would, independently of the Act of 1896, be sold without the consent of the owner as to price. Take the case of the King Harman Estate which, owing to the terms of the will of Mr. King Harman, a former Member of the House, was now in Chancery, and would not be available for the next eight years. Did these words in the sub-section mean that that estate could be withdrawn out of Chancery so as to escape the effect of this Act altogether? If so that would be a very serious matter for the tenants.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 22, line 42, to leave out from the word 'either' to the end of the line."—(Mr. Tully.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that where a Chancery order for sale had been obtained it might have been possible to

  1423
  demand a bonus from the general taxpayer. The object of the bonus was to induce a sale which otherwise would not take place. Therefore, they began with that. But it might be said that there were estates in the Land Judge's Court which were not really going to be sold. His answer to that was that if that were true, and they came out of the Land Judge's Court, they could then be sold with the bonus. However, before the Report stage, he would consider the case of a minor or a lunatic whose estate was in Chancery and see whether some arrangement could be come to.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that something was necessary in order to prevent these estates being discharged once the order for sale had been made. Mr. Justice Ross had refused to sell these estates because a sufficiently good price could not be obtained for them, and they could not take the bonus but would be held up for twelve years to come. It seemed to him some words were necessary to prevent these estates being discharged from Chancery. When an absolute order for sale had been made in the Land Judge's Court it should not be lawful to discharge these estates.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,)who was almost inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say: With regard to the first point raised it might be necessary to make some small verbal alterations to allow for a receiver who had been discharged. With regard to the point raised in respect of minors and lunatics, no difficulty would arise in that case because the Court had control in those matters, and nothing could be done without the consent of the Lord Chancellor or those under him who had control of the estate.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the case was rather graver than the hon. Gentleman seemed to think. He knew a case where that question came in, the owner, a widow lady, quite against the interests of the tenants, had stated that if a little more time were given she could bring in the
  1424
  mortgage money. The Judge stated that if she did not bring the money in he would commit her for contempt. She had not brought in the money and she was still permitted to prevent tenants from obtaining their holdings. Whenever an absolute order for sale was made the Judge ought to insist on the rigidity of the order and sell the estate out of Court. If there was no intention to sell these estates then the taxpayer ought not be compelled to maintain a Judge at £3,500 a year for that purpose. A gross abuse had grown up with regard to this.
  *MR. BUTCHERsaid he was glad to hear that a modification of the rigour of this clause was to be allowed, and that some estates which originally were not to get the benefit of the bonus were now to get that benefit. He would like it modified in those cases where the estate was solvent and a receiver was appointed mainly for the purposes of administration. As he understood it under this clause, a case of that kind would be entirely excluded from the benefit of the bonus because it would be an estate sold by the Land Court, of which a receiver had been appointed. Would it be open to the parties to discharge the receiver in a case of that kind and take the case out of the Court of Chancery and sell under the provisions of the Act.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid it might be necessary to introduce some verbal alterations to carry out the hon. Gentlemen's proposal, because it was part at the policy of the Government that a case in which the Court had appointed a receiver for the purposes of mere administration should not be considered to be in the Court at all.
  *MR. BUTCHERasked whether it would be possible to discharge the receiver and take such an estate out of the Court of Chancery.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid the appointment of a receiver in the Landed Estates Court was merely for accelerating sale, and in order to get such a receiver appointed it was necessary to petition for sale purely and simply. If such a petition was not bonâ fide then it must be withdrawn.
  MR. TULLYbegged leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. SHARPEsaid there was a very strong feeling that Sub-section 4 would press very hardly on all parties and that it should be withdrawn. He therefore begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 22, line 41, to leave out sub-Section 4."—(Mr. Sharpe.)
  Question proposed, "That Sub-section 4 stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he thought the desire of his hon. friend would be met by an Amendment which he proposed to move later, and therefore he hoped his hon. friend would not persist in his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 44 agreed to.
  Clause 45.
  *MR. HEMPHILLsaid he apprehended the right hon. Gentleman would have no difficulty in accepting the Amendment he now proposed to move, as it carried out the policy and object of the Bill.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 23, line 11, at end, to add the words 'No stamp duty or fee fund shall be charged on any searches directed by the Land Commission or Land Judge in the Registry of Deeds, Registry of Titles, or Registry of Judgments.'"—(Mr. Hemphill.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the object of the Amendment seemed to be to prevent stamp duty being charged for searches. Clause 22 already provided that searches should be made without charge, and he held that that included stamp duty or fee fund, and that clause represented the bargain the Committee had come to. He could not extend it any further.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. O'SHEEsaid the grievance his Amendment was designed to meet was a very serious one. It was a grievance which was unintentionally inflicted in all the Acts that had been passed. It had never been called attention to in any of these debates, and he therefore considered he was right in referring to it. Taking the case of a farmer who rented a farm at £125, the moment he had purchased it under the Purchase Acts at a price which represented a purchase annuity of, say, £100, if he put it up for sale and sold, the person who bought had to pay, in addition to the stamp duty on the actual price, a sum of £15 for stamp duty on the redemption value of the annuity. Each £100 of annuity represented over £15 for stamp duty in case of a transfer. If a landlord transferred his mortgage he had to pay, not 10s. per cent., but 6d. per cent.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 23, line 11, at end, to add the words 'and stamp duty shall be payable on any conveyance or transfer of land purchased under the Land Purchase Acts, or Part II. of this Act, only in respect of the amount or value of the consideration for such conveyance or transfer, and exclusive of the redemption value of the annuity payable to the Land Commission.'"—(Mr. O'Shee.)
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid in this matter the Government had a great engine of oppression at their disposal; no lawyer would advise his client to fight. While the Government might say the law did not require alteration it was evident that in practice it did. If he had a farm under the landlord and tenant system and he sold it at £500, stamp duty would be paid on £500; but on the day after it was sold the stamp duty would be on £3000. No doubt there was necessity to prevent fraud, but subject to that necessity some such Amendment as this should be accepted.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid he did not think the Amendment was necessary. The stamp duty would only be paid on the real sum paid provided it was a bonâ fide sale.
  MR. O'DOHERTYsaid the wording of the Bill was vague and this Amendment was designed to make it clear.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he would consider what had been said as to this practic having grown up and whether these words required altering.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 45 agreed to.
  Clause 46.
  MR. BUTCHERsaid he desired to insert words to relieve a trustee who was guilty of a breach of trust. The words he moved followed very closely the words embodied in the English Judicial Trustee Act of 1893. That Act, curiously enough, was not made to apply to Ireland. He failed to see why an Irish trustee should be harder hit than any other, and therefore he begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 23, after line 29, to insert the words '(4) In the case of all proceedings in relation to any lands sold in the High Court, or under the Land Purchase Acts, or any charges thereon, or any moneys realised thereby, if it appears to the Court that a trustee is, or may be, personally liable for any breach of trust, whether the transaction alleged to be a breach of trust, occurred before or after the passing of this Act, but has acted honestly and reasonably, and ought fairly to be excused for the breach of trust, and for omitting to obtain the directions of the Court in the matter in which he committed such breach, then the Court may relieve the trustee, either wholly or partly, from personal liability for the same.'"—(Mr. Butcher.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. ATKINSONsaid, as he understood, the position of a trustee guilty of such act was provided for in the clause if the breach of trust was committed after the passing of this Bill, but it could not be dealt with if committed before. He thought the fears of the hon. and learned Member in regard to the trustee who honestly made a mistake were quite groundless. [Cries of "No, no!"]
  MR. BUTCHERsaid he could not agree with what the Attorney-General had stated. His Amendment read—
  "In the case of all proceedings in relation to any lands sold in the High Court, or under the Land Purchase Acts, or any charges thereon,
  1428
  or any moneys realised thereby, if it appears to the Court that a trustee is, or may be, personally liable for any breach of trust."
  The clause was merely confined to cases of sales arising out of land in Ireland, and his proposal would give the trustee the same protection in case there was a breach of trust, as was at present the case in England.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member's proposal relates simply to the investment of money, where a trustee has invested money where he had no power, then I think his Amendment is in order, but if it relates to other matters, then it is not in order upon this clause
  MR. BUTCHER: Then I will move it on Report.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that when the Act of 1893, dealing with this subject, was before the House, he called attention to the desirability of applying the Act to Ireland, but Parliament did not do so. Now they were creating for the purposes of this Act alone a public trustee, and it was most desirable that he should act as a trustee generally. The Act of 1893 had worked well in England, and it was desirable that a similar provision should be extended to Ireland.
  MR. DILLONreminded the hon. and learned Member for Louth that the Trustees Bill was extended to Ireland upon the Motion of the Lord Chancellor, but that provision was knocked out when the Bill came back to the Commons. What the Chief Secretary ought to do was to extend to trustees in Ireland the same protection and relief which they had got under the Act in England.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think this matter is relevant to this clause. If the hon. Member will bring it up as a new clause it will be further considered.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 46 agreed to.
  Clause 47.
  *MR. HEMPHILLproposed an Amendment to insert the words, "and the

  1429
  President for the time being of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland." He understood the Chief Secretary to intimate that he would bring in a clause which would include the President of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland. He understood the Chief Secretary to have given a modified adhesion to his former Amendment upon this point, and to have promised to include the President when he came to put forward the general section about rule making.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 24, line 38, after the word 'Commission,' to insert the words 'and the President, for the time being, of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland, and.'"—(Mr. Hemphill.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was anxious that no words of his should be misunderstood. All he promised upon a former occasion was to consider whether it would be proper to discriminate in this matter and bring in the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland. The right hon. and learned Member opposite had asked him to insert the words—
  "And the President for the time being of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland."
  He had no doubt that the rule making authority would consult the Law Society, but he did not think they should lay a statutory obligation upon them to do so. In drawing up the rules it would not be necessary to bring in the President of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland.
  *MR. HEMPHILLsaid this Amendment had been suggested to him by the Incorporated Law Society after very serious deliberation on their part and after full consideration. The Land Commission consisted of men who were, more or less, lay people. [Cries of "No, no!"] He thought the experience of the Incorporated Law Society, speaking through its President, would be of enormous public advantage. On that ground alone he thought his Amendment was reasonable. Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman had made up his mind to the contrary, there was no need for him to take up further time arguing the point.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that, unless they had the support of the general body of landlords, solicitors in Ireland this Act would not work with the same smoothness. They would be consulted in every case by the landlords. They were in possession of the landlords, deeds, and from the tenants' point of view it was desirable to recognise this very powerful body. They had the landlords in the hollow of their hands, and to that extent they had also the tenants in their power. He did not think it was good policy for the Government to resist this Amendment.
  MR. GORDONthought that when the Incorporated Law Society made a suggestion of this kind the Chief Secretary ought to accept it.
  Amendment, by leave, withrawn.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBmoved to insert after "sale" the words "such rules shall be made by a majority, of whom the Judicial Commissioner shall be one." He said it was very important that these rules should be so framed as to inspire the confidence of all whom they concerned. The reasons for the Amendment were so obvious that it was unnecessary that he should detain the Committee by going into them. He begged to move.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 24, line 43, after the word 'sale' to insert the words 'such rules shall be made by a majority, of whom the Judicial Commissioner shall be one.'"—(Sir John Colomb.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the object of the hon. Member was already met by the Act of 1891, which would have to be read with the present measure.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid it was very desirable that some assurance should be given that the Trustee Act of 1893 would be applied in some way.
  MR. WYNDHAMthought the matter ought to be dealt with by a separate Bill, and he would consider the possibility of

  1431
  introducing such a measure. Clauses 46 and 47 had been settled after prolonged consideration, in which he had the assistance of the Lord Chancellor of England, and he could not attempt to engraft on to this Land Bill a general Amendment of the Trustee Acts in Ireland.
  Clause 47 agreed to.
  Clause 48.
  Amendments proposed—
  "In page 25, line 1, to leave out from the word 'in' to the first word 'the' in line 5."—(Mr. Wyndham).
  "In page 25, line 5, after the word 'Acts),' to insert the words 'imposing a limit on advances.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  MR. CLANCYsaid the Amendment he had on the Paper provided for the case of an evicted tenant being restored to his former holding. He did not propose to move the Amendment, as the words to be moved by the Chief Secretary covered not only that case, but also the case of a tenancy created by the Congested Districts Board. He pointed out, however, that the Chief Secretary did not meet the case of an evicted tenant who was given, not his former holding, but another holding on the estate.
  MR. WYNDHAMthought the point referred to by the hon. Member had already been met by the Amendment of Section 2, giving a discretionary extension of the term. The Amendment he now moved covered the conclusion arrived at on a former occasion.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 25, line 18, at end, to insert the words 'Provided also that this section shall not apply to the case of a former tenant, or a person nominated by the Land Commission as his personal representative, purchasing his former holding, or to the case of a tenancy created by the Congested Districts Board."—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. DILLON, while admitting that this was a very valuable Amendment, asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would have any objection to making the
  1432
  matter quite clear by adding the words "or the Estates Commissioners."
  MR. WYNDHAMthought the words suggested would go farther than the hon. Member intended.
  MR. DILLONpointed out that, under the Act, the powers of the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board would overlap in the matter of migration, therefore the former would require the same powers in that respect as the latter.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he would have to consider the matter very carefully. A man could not be asked to give up a farm unless an equivalent were found elsewhere. The words suggested by the hon. Member would abolish all the limitations that had been inserted, unless words were added defining the purpose for which such tenancies were created, and he would rather not attempt hastily to find such words.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the Government ought to consider this sub section in connection with the pledge they had given to amend Sub-section 4 of Clause 43.
  MR. KILBRIDEasked whether the object of the Amendment was not to confine the provision to tenants who purchased their old holdings, but to extend it to other cases.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the case of a tenant who purchased a holding other than the one he formerly occupied had been met in another part of the Bill. This provision contemplated the case of a tenant who reoccupied his old holding, in which his contention had all along been that the limit of advance should not apply. But in these voluntary arrangements the Government were bound to see that nobody suffered either in kind or in money value. The amount of land available for enlarging or improving holdings was very small. The original limit had been extended to £1,000, and a discretion had been given. He did not think they ought to go farther, but if he were pressed as to the necessity of introducing words

  1433
  dealing with the Estates Commissioners, he would consider the matter before the Report stage.
  MR. CLANCYunderstood Clause 2 to apply to cases where tenants were supplied with holdings on estates entirely other than those from which they were evicted. That would leave the cases of the men who returned to the estate from which they had been evicted. The less fortunate men would be entitled to a smaller advance than the more fortunate who got back to their former holdings. The evicted tenants on an estate would be treated unequally, and he did not understand that the case of the tenant reinstated on a holding other than his former holding on the estate had as yet been provided for at all. He thought Clause 2 referred to the provision of holdings for evicted tenants on estates other than those from which they had been evicted. If he was right in that, the case of a man going to another holding was not provided for, or else he was not as well treated as a tenant who returned to his old holding.
  MR. TULLYsaid this referred to tenancies created since 1st March last. He begged to enter his protest, because he thought it would be a serious thing if the eleven months men in Connaught were to get extended limits there, and if they were enabled to get hold permanently of the grazing lands which they now held under this temporary method of tenancy. He thoroughly agreed with the protest made formerly on this matter by the hon. Member for Cork.
  MR. CLANCYsaid his Amendment had nothing to do with the remarks of the hon. Gentleman.
  MR. WYNDHAMadmitted that this was a somewhat difficult question. The clause did not embody all the arrangements at which they had arrived. In proper cases it would enable a man to acquire a holding other than that from which he was evicted up to £7,000. They were all agreed that it was proper
  1434
  to do this in order to put estates in a proper state to be resold. That could only be done by men going out of farms in badly congested districts, so that the farms vacated might be available for increasing the size of other holdings. He thought that covered the whole ground. It was not proper that persons, in expectation of this Bill, should proceed to map out holdings of convenient size. The Government introduced Clause 48 to prevent that. The general policy of the Government was that there should be a limitation to the manufacture of holdings in order to capture land in the manner already described. That would be the effect of adopting the hon. Member's proposal. They must carry out and not defeat the general policy of the Act, and the way to do that was to foster migration.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he entirely agreed with what the right hon. Gentleman had said. He pointed out that in order to make the intention of the Government clear it was desirable that the drafting should be altered. There was no definition of "holding" in the Bill. By Clause 2, Sub-section 3, it was provided that the expression "holding" in the Land Purchase Acts "shall include a parcel of land in respect of the purchase of which an advance has been made in pursuance of this section." The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment enabled provision to be made for a former tenant, but it would not enable a part to be sold. The reference to a parcel of land was confined to Clause 2. He suggested that a definition should be put in so that "holding" should embrace part of a holding.
  MR. O'SHEEsaid there were farms which were in part occupied by new tenants. Would the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman cover these cases also?
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid Section 1 of the Bill dealt with a holding as it was, and which was to be sold as it was. Section 2 included everything else.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he thought the word "holding" in Section 2 was confined to the provisions of that section. The

  1435
  Committee were now discussing Clause 48 which began with these words—
  "Notwithstanding anything in Section 2 of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1888."
  MR. ATKINSONsaid it was necessary, in order to make the Purchase Acts apply to these parcels of land, to say that the parcels were holdings.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he quite followed what the hon. and learned Gentleman stated, but he still thought that there was something in his point. He would confer with the right hon. Gentleman on the point.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSONsaid the Chief Secretary had told them that Clause 48 was put in the Bill to prevent the manufacture of holdings. They were still hampered by the provision in regard to £2,000 in exceptional cases. That appeared to him to be entirely wrong. It was probable that the words at the beginning of Sub-section 1 were really intended to apply to this class of tenants as well as others. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 25, line 19, to leave out Sub-section 2."
  Question proposed, "That Sub-section 2 stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid this was not a new provision. It appeared in the Bill which he introduced last year. When an estate was in Court, holdings were let to persons, and it might be held that those who occupied under these Court tenancies had no right to come under an Act of this kind. A fair compromise had been struck in the case of those who had the advantage of taking land which had not been finally disposed of, by permitting advances to be made up to £1,000, and in some cases up to £2,000. It would defeat the policy of the Government if they omitted the sub-section. These estates often comprised untenanted land. He would remind his hon. friend that even hon. Members who had taken exception to the Bill as a whole had all said that some effort should be made to deal with the problem of the congested districts. He
  1436
  doubted whether they could deal with these districts if they omitted the sub-section.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he entirely accepted the view of the Government in this matter. He thought all restrictions were mischievous. It was another instance of legislating for all Ireland by reference to the condition of what were called the congested counties. Besides that, it was a reversal of the decision of the Court of Appeal in the Owens case. He asked whether the case of an evicted tenant who had been created a Court tenant was met by the Amendment the Chief Secretary moved, a moment ago. Thousands of the Court tenants were evicted tenants. To say in an offhand way that these evicted tenants when they became Court tenants were not to have the full benefit of the Act would be to deal a blow at the general body of the evicted tenants. Did Sub-section 2 override Sub-section 1, even in the case of an evicted tenant provided for by the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman? He would recommend the right hon. Gentleman to put in his proviso as an entirely separate sub-section, and then it would appear that neither Sub-section 1 nor Sub-section 2 would govern the case of the evicted tenant. There were a great number of cases of which he was personally cognisant where there had been no eviction, but the tenant had remained with the consent of the landlord and encumbrancer, and it was out of the money which the tenant had spent in improvements on the tenancy that the owner had been kept from sale.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he would take into consideration the point raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSONsaid that in that event he would not press the Amendment to a division.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 48, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 49.
  COLONEL NOLANsaid he had an Amendment to leave out Sub-section (c) of this clause which he proposed to put for the purpose of eliciting

  1437
  an opinion from the Attorney-General for Ireland in regard to its effect. At present the almost universal practice was that when a tenant died intestate leaving a widow, she went on keeping the holding and paying the rent though she could not bequeath it. It seemed to him that that sub-section, if it became law, would be at variance with the general practice.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 25, line 39, to leave out Sub-section (c)."—(Colonel Nolan.)
  Question proposed, "That Sub-section (c) stand part of the clause."
  MR. ATKINSONsaid that the condition of things which the hon. and gallant Member wished to provide for was covered by the proviso at the end of Sub-section 1.
  COLONEL NOLANsaid he was satisfied with the explanation and would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBsaid he had two Amendments on the Paper relating to the same sub-section. The effect of these Amendments taken together would be to reverse the procedure in the case of the death of a tenant. Under the clause, on the death of the proprietor of a holding, the Land Commission might require the holding to be sold within twelve months, or, in default, they might cause the holding to be sold, provided that the Land Commission might, instead of that procedure, nominate some person interested in the holding to be the proprietor of the holding. As he had said, he wanted the procedure to be reversed.
  Amendments proposed—
  "In page 26, line 2, to leave out from the word 'may' to the word 'nominate' in line 8.
  "In page 26, line 12, after the word 'otherwise' to insert the words 'or may cause the holding to be sold.'"—(Sir John Colomb.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  *MR. HEMPHILLconfessed that in his opinion the Amendments of his hon. and gallant friend were an improvement.
  1438
  The arrangement in the clause as it stood would cause delay and the Amendments would facilitate the working of the Act and prevent family differences.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that if the Government yielded on Amendments of this kind they would be giving away one of the most effective securities the Treasury possessed. The Land Commission might nominate a person or in default order a sale; but what would happen if there were a dozen sons and none of them would say he was responsible for the annual payments? Why should not the Land Commission have the power to order a sale within twelve months of the death of the owner of a holding?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLthought that the question was important. The nomination ought to come first, and if the Land Commission were not satisfied with the nomination then they ought to have the power of sale.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that this was really a question of drafting. His draftsman had considered the clause very carefully, and he agreed with the draftsman. He hoped his hon. and gallant friend would not press his Amendment.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBsaid he knew from experience that, though his Amendments might not be so good as a matter of drafting, they would be better law in the interest of the peace of families.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid it was to the national interest of Ireland that this clause, which was a little stringent, should be retained so as to defeat any attempted fraud.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he agreed that all these questions had to be carefully considered. If he accepted the Amendment he would have to elaborate the second part of it. There was the difficulty of intestacy and of relations who could not make up their minds to do anything, and unless they could come to a satisfactory family arrangement they must put up the estate for sale.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBknew what was likely to happen. The first thing was to nominate somebody, as innumerable family feuds ought to be avoided. He thought that his Amendment would bring about a better state of things, but after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GOREmoved to leave out Sub-section 2 of Clause 49. He said he was not in want of sympathy with the object, but he thought the clause was so drafted as to defeat the object it wished to attain. It would be important in Ireland in the future, when the sales had been achieved, that the greatest care should be taken to protect the interests of the small peasant proprietors. With regard to sub-letting he perfectly agreed that sub-letting and mortgaging were some of the greatest drawbacks Ireland had to combat, but he could not agree that this sub - section would altogether eradicate the system of over-borrowing, and he therefore thought a sound system of credit ought to be established in Ireland. Abroad most of the peasant proprietors had a system of land banks. In Germany there were the Raiffeisen Banks, and they had the Crédit Fonciers in France, which helped the peasant proprietors to obtain loans on favourable terms and at the lowest rates of interest. If this sub-section were retained in its present form he felt there would be a temptation for the peasant proprietors to surreptitiously borrow money from the small shopkeeper or the gombeen man, and it would go a long way in the future to establish a system of landlordism, which he would look upon as a very great evil. They did not want the tenant and the gombeen man going hand in hand and imitating "Charles Surface" and his uncle in the scene where they were found drinking to the toast of "Success to Usury." Therefore, if the Chief Secretary could promise to establish some sort of State credit in Ireland for the benefit of the peasant
  1440
  proprietors, it would go a very long way towards increasing their prosperity. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would eliminate this sub-section from the Bill and introduce some clause in order to counteract the difficulties which he saw ahead in the mortgaging and sub-letting of Irish land.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, line 13, to leave out Sub-sections 2."—(Mr. Seymour Ormsby-Gore.)
  Question proposed, "That Sub-section 2 stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the hon. Gentleman had asked him to omit this sub-section in order to draw attention to another reform. He quite agreed that this was an important matter and that they ought in the future to do something towards the establishment of land banks, but he did not hold that they ought to omit this sub-section. On the contrary, he attached great importance to it.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that the words of the right hon. Gentleman should be printed on the back of the vesting order of the tenant in letters of gold.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBexpressed himself as being entirely in favour of, and as supporting the sub-section. He would, however, like to have an answer to one question. This sub-section made null and void on a holding of the rateable value of £2 any instrument or mortgage for sums exceeding £20; did it make null and void three or four mortgages of £5 or £6 each, which would in the aggregate be more than the £20, or must it be in one mortgage; and if in more than one how were they to find out what money had been lent?
  MR. ATKINSONsaid that when a man had mortgaged his land for the amount, whether the loan was covered by one or by ten mortgages it was the same thing. With regard to the second point, if the mortgage was registered it could be seen from the register.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLthought the lenders of the money would see to it that they did not lend too much.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsuggested that if it was made ten times the annual instalment instead of ten times the rateable value it would be far better, because undoubtedly the valuation differed very much in different parts of the country. Under the circumstances it might be well to consider that question.
  *MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GOREsaid he was quite prepared to accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for North Louth. In future the status of the Irish peasant proprietor would be considerably improved. Agriculture would no doubt flourish to a very much greater extent than hitherto, and there would be more foreign trade from Ireland. Ireland, in spite of her drawbacks, dealt with North America for grain, and with South America for manure, and she had to compete with Denmark, Holland, France, and Russia in produce. He thought if extended credit was given to the tenants it would be a great advantage to them. Where a man had to pay a lump sum to his relatives he would be able to do it with much greater advantage to himself in the future.
  MR. TULLYhoped that the Chief Secretary would accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for North Louth, because otherwise this clause would be used to extort from the tenants a larger price than the landlords were entitled to. That was a thing they should try to prevent. In the old days of the plan of campaign they had hunted the gombeen man out of the west, and they did not want him back again.
  MR. JORDANsupported the suggestion that it should be ten times the annual instalment, because in many cases ten times the rateable value would be more than the whole farm would be worth.
  MR. WYNDHAMthought the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Louth was a useful one. The Government aimed roughly at one-third of the balance, and ten times the annual instalment would come to about that amount, and therefore he would accept that.
  MR. FLAVINsaid the instalment would increase in ratio to the number of years rent the tenant paid.
  *MR. O'SHEEpointed out thatf or the first ten years the tenant could borrow ten times the annuity, and that that amount would be much higher than the annuity for the second ten years, and considerably higher than the annuity for the third ten years, and that the effect of this Amendment would be that at the time when their holdings were most heavily charged they would be able to borrow most heavily. He wished to know how the acceptance of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Louth would affect the case of the 80,000 tenants who had already purchased their holdings. He thought it would considerably prejudice their case.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid this provision could not affect those who had already purchased their holdings. They could not take away that which had already been sold.
  MR. SEYMOUR ORMSBY-GOREbegged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, lines 15 and 16, to omit the words 'rateable value' in order to insert the words 'purchase annuity.'"—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  *MR. O'SHEEmoved to insert in Sub-section (3), after "registered," the words, "within three months of the date of execution by the mortgagor or chargeant."
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, line 20, to insert the words within three months of the date of execution by the mortgagor or chargeant."—(Mr. O'Shee.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. ATKINSONwas understood to accept the Amendment.
  MR. GORDONthought the Attorney-General had hardly considered the situation. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman wished to protect the owner, but he failed to see how this Amendment would do so.
  MR. BUTCHERpointed out that three months was rather too long a period. A man might mortgage his holding to its full value, keep the mortgage in his pocket, mortgage the holding a second time, and then register the first mortgage. In that case the second mortgagee would lose his money. The instrument ought to be registered within less than three months in order to prevent fraud on a subsequent mortgagee.
  *MR. O'SHEEsaid the ordinary law of priority would apply in such a case.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  *MR. HUGH LAWsaid that when introducing the Bill the Chief Secretary laid great stress on the dangers of excessive sub-division and excessive mortgaging of small holdings. The former was already sufficiently provided for, and the Chief Secretary had proposed to provide against the latter by a permanent rent-charge. That provision, however, had, very properly, for other reasons disappeared from the Bill, and in considering what should take its place regard might be had to an example afforded by America. In most of the States a provision existed by which a forced sale of a homestead was prevented, except for the nonpayment of taxes or money due to the State. The Amendment he desired to move followed the American precedent very closely, in that it proposed that no such sale should be made in the case of a holding not exceeding £20 rateable value, on which the proprietor actually resided. It might be suggested that this would lead to an undue restriction of credit, but it could hardly be contended that unlimited credit was good for these small tenants. There were other means of obtaining credit than running into debt with the local shopkeeper, and he thought the better class shopkeeper
  1444
  would not resent such a restriction being imposed. If the right hon. Gentleman had not been able to devise some better means of dealing with the matter he hoped he would accept this proposal.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 26, line 22, at end to insert the words, '(4) No writ of fieri facias or other process of a Court shall be executed by seizure or sale of the estate or interest of any proprietor of a holding, not exceeding twenty pounds in rateable value, upon which he actually resides; nor shall any judgment be registered as a mortgage against same, nor shall any such writ, or judgment, or judgment mortgage be registered as a burden affecting same under the provisions of The Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Act, 1891.'"—(Mr. Hugh Law.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the hon. Member asked the Committee to accept a law which prevailed in America but not throughout America. The objects which the hon. Member had at heart were very desirable objects, but they were achieved by some other provisions in this Bill. It would be the poorer tenants who would probably be driven to borrow, not improvidently or in such a way as to risk their interest in the land, but up to 25 per cent. If they were to say that those who lent the money would have no remedy at all against the tenants, the result would be that they would not be able to borrow at all.
  MR. DILLONsaid there appeared to be a false idea prevalent as to the powers of the small farmers to protect themselves, but he thought they would be found as competent to protect themselves as the landlords. If they wished to protect these small men from themselves the one effective way to do it was by a homestead law. When the Chief Secretary told them that this homestead law would prevent these small farmers from borrowing it was absurd, because it had been provided by a previous clause that they were prevented from borrowing more than one-third. This proposal would leave them free to borrow as far as they chose to do it. It would also put a check on what had been a real danger

  1445
  to them and that was unlimited and excessive credit being given to them with the object of depriving them of their holdings. He was aware that some of his colleagues thought this would destroy the credit of the small holders; he did not think it would have that effect. He thought that a very considerable section of shopkeepers would have no objection to this proposal because they did not desire to give excessive credit, and if they did they would not sell the holding. He had known many cases of shopkeepers who preferred to lose their money rather than sell a man out of his home. He thought this Amendment would put a most wholesome check on what threatened to ruin the people and the shopkeepers themselves. He believed that the only safe path was to put a check upon undue credit being given to the small holders. In nine cases out of ten a trader would go for the goods, and if the trader was foolish enough to give credit to a man who had no goods he deserved to lose his money. He maintained that if they were going to adopt the policy of protecting people against themselves the best way to do it was to limit their credit.
  *MR. O'DOHERTYsaid he had heard of a "no rent manifesto," but until he read the hon. Member's Amendment he never heard before of a "no debt manifesto." In the county of Donegal they had very few gombeen men, but the people largely depended upon the shopkeepers to make both ends meet. In some instances the people in six weeks had to make enough money to keep them a year. This Amendment struck at the small farmer and fisherman, and the result of its operation would be that every shopkeeper who gave credit to a farmer whose holding was less than £20 rateable value would take care that he got a duly registered mortgage, and the tenant would have to pay the costs. So far as his own constituency was concerned it would mean disaster, not only to the shopkeepers but to the very people whom the hon. and learned Member wished to protect. It would absolutely destroy credit in Donegal, and he thought Donegal was typical of Con naught and other congested districts. Therefore he hoped the
  1446
  Government would not engraft this proposal upon the Land Act of 1893, for an Amendment more calculated to do harm to the shopkeepers, and more particularly to the poorer counties, was never introduced. He believed that the more opportunities they gave to the people to borrow the more they would borrow and this Amendment would mean a great loss not only to the shopkeepers but also to all those who purchased under this Act, and whose valuation was under £20.
  MR. O'SHEEcontended that this Amendment carried out the very objects which the hon. Member who had just sat down desired to further. He thought the shopkeepers would be glad if the Committee adopted this proposal, because then they would be in a better position to refuse credit.
  MR. TULLYasked whether the protection which the tenants already had was done away with under the clause as it stood. If the effect of the Bill was to remove that protection he thought it should be amended.
  *MR. HUGH LAWsaid he recognised the force of what the right hon. Gentleman had said when he stated that this was a very large question to engraft upon the Land Bill, and for that reason he would not press the Amendment. He did not move the Amendment of his own whim or fancy, as the hon. Member for North Donegal seemed to suppose. He moved it in accordance with a resolution of the National Convention held in Dublin.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE MARQUESS OF HAMILTONmoved—
  In Clause 49, page 26, line 25, to insert—"This Section shall not apply to demesne or other lands re-sold or sold under Section 3 of this Act."
  He said this clause was intended to take care of the present proprietor after he had purchased. He did not see why it should not refer also to the landlord who had sold his demesne and re-bought it. Under the clause as it stood he would not be able to sub-let his demesne without being tied to the apron strings of the Land Commission.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, line 25, at end, to add the words, 'this section shall not apply to demesne or other lands resold or sold under Section 3 of this Act.'"—(The Marquess of Hamilton.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. DILLONsaid he wondered on what ground the noble Lord moved this Amendment. He thought it would set up an invidious distinction, and it was desirable to avoid any further distinctions between the different classes of men who were to use public money under the Act. The landlords who bought back their demesnes would become permanent proprietors so far as this Act was concerned. He did not see why they should be treated on a different footing from others.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBsaid there was a difference between the two cases. In one case the State advanced the whole of the purchase money, and in the other case it advanced only one-third of the price of the holdings sold.
  MR. DILLONasked whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman would agree that the State was only to advance one-third of the purchase money.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid his noble friend had just handed in the Amendment, and he must have an opportunity of considering it before stating what course he would take in regard to the proposal. His general view was that the permission for the landlord to sell his demesne and buy it back was a separate matter put into the Bill largely to induce the landlord to sell. The landlord must take his chances with other people. He did not think they would be effecting equality by saying that all that was proper and applicable to a peasant proprietor was proper and applicable to a home farm, or whatever it might be, which the landlord retained. The object of the Treasury was to induce the landlord to sell. He doubted the policy of restricting that inducement. He was not prepared to give a definite answer on an Amendment which he had not had an opportunity of studying.
  THE MARQUESS OF HAMILTONsaid that he would bring up the matter on Report. He asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  MR. DILLONsaid this was a very serious question if the right hon. Gentleman proposed to introduce a provision allowing the landlords to sublet. When a landlord got money to buy the home farm it was on the assumption that he would reside on it.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that what had been stated by the hon. Member for East Mayo showed that the Amendment required to be considered in connection with all the other proposals in the Bill. His idea was that the money was to be advanced to buy back the demesne as an inducement to the resident landlord to enjoy his property. He would consider whether it was possible to meet the proposal of his noble friend.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. O'SHEEcalled the attention of the Chief Secretary to the powers conferred by Clause 4, on trustees to acquire land for the purposes of the Labourers Act, and stated he was sure it was not intended or desired that trustees should be compelled to go to the Land Commission for permission to sublet or subdivide for labourers' allotments. That, however, was what they would have to do under this clause. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to consider this matter before Report.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he did not think the clause would apply to that, but he would consider the matter.
  Clause 49 agreed to.
  Clause 50—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, line 26, to leave out the words 'subject to a perpetual rent-charge under this Act.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, line 30, to leave out the words 'and the perpetual rent-charge.'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 50, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 51.
  MR. HEALYsaid the clause contained the following sub-sections—
  "(2) When any collector of poor rate becomes aware of any sub-division or letting of any such holding he shall, as soon as may be, give information thereof to the Commissioner of Valuation and Boundary Surveyor.
  "(3) The district registrar of births and deaths shall, so soon as he is aware of the death of any person who was at the time of his death the proprietor of any such holding, situate in whole or in part within his district, give information to the Land Commission in the prescribed manner of such death. (4) Every district registrar and collector of poor rates who fails to comply with the requirements of this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds."
  It appeared to him that the duty of collecting poor rates was already sufficiently difficult, but if he was to have this duty imposed on him, subject to a penalty of £10 for failure, he ought to be paid. The collectors were appointed for local purposes, but now they were to be constituted Imperial officers. They would be looked upon as spies and informers, and if they were to be subject to this penalty they should get some such fee as was paid under the Jurors Act.
  He begged to move as a new sub-section—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 27, after Sub-section 5, to insert a new Sub-section '(6), The fee to be prescribed by the Lord Lieutenant shall be payable by the Land Commission, in each case, to any official who gives information as is required by Sub-sections 2 and 3.'"—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  COLONEL NOLANsaid that they would get a much lower class of poor rate collectors in the future than at present if the sub-section remained as it stood. At present the collector was looked upon as a commercial man of some importance, and the duty to be imposed upon him by the clause was quite extraneous to a collector's general work. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman, if he lived in the country, would like to give the information.
  MR. TULLYsaid that at present the poor rate collector had to give information under the Franchise Act. He had to state any changes that had taken place in the occupancy of the holding. But for that work he was paid extra; and if he had to do a new, and, to a certain extent, an invidious duty—which might be a perfectly proper duty—to prevent sub-division, he was entitled to extra payment. The fee should be the same as he got under the Franchise Act and the Jurors Act.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid they were all agreed that sub-division was an evil, and that it could not be prevented unless information of the sub-division was obtained through the poor rate collector. So far as he knew that official was the only person who could give the information. The hon. and learned Gentleman had raised the point that it would be unfair to impose new duties on existing officers without extra pay. He admitted the force of the contention that new duties imposed upon an official should carry with them some remuneration, and he agreed to consider this point in consultation with the Vice-President of the Local Government Board. He could not go further at present than that, and he could not accept the words of the Amendment.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he was satisfied with the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman, and would withdraw the Amendment. At the same time, he maintained that a fine of £10 was excessive for a first offence, although he could understand that fine being imposed for the third or fourth offence. Under the Franchise Act the fine was only 40s.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the penalty should have some relation to the remuneration. He was not in a position now to say what the remuneration should be, and, therefore, what the fine should be.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 51 agreed to.
  Clause 52.
  MR. DILLONsaid he had an Amendment on the Paper to delete from Sub-section 4, the words "not more than one year's arrears of" for the purpose of ascertaining the full meaning of these words.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 27, lines 41 and 42, to leave out the words 'not more than one year's' and insert the word 'no.'"—(Mr. Dillon.)
  Question proposed 'That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that this provision was a restriction on the powers of the Land Judge's Court.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that it was only right that he should state that the Land Judge exercised his jurisdiction in regard to arrears in the most clement manner.
  MR. DILLONsaid that after the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 52 agreed to.
  Clause 53.
  MR. DILLONsaid he had an Amendment to leave out Sub-section 2, which he had put down for the purpose of eliciting some information. He wanted to know why one Commissioner instead of two was to make the report.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 28, line 4, to leave out Sub-section 1."—(Mr. Dillon.)
  Question proposed, "That Sub section 1 stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the section was intended to amend the present practice under Section 40 of the Act of 1896. They were not now dealing with the Estates Commissioners but with the Land Commissioners. When Judge Ross asked for a report it was sent in by two
  1452
  Commissioners; and unless the two Commissioners were agreed nothing happened. That was the trouble. The case was handed on to two other Commissioners, and very often a considerable time elapsed before any decisive result was achieved. It was now proposed that the report should be sent in by only one Land Commissioner; and if there was any difference of opinion between the Land Judge and the Commissioner the case was to be referred to three Commissioners; and when it was referred to three Commissioners a result must be arrived at.
  MR. DILLONsaid that one of the reasons why he put down his Amendment was to ascertain clearly what the machinery was to be. The right hon. Gentleman had not informed the Committee on that point. He said that the Committee were not now dealing with the Estates Commissioners, but with the Land Commissioners. By a subsequent clause, however, Mr. Murrough O'Brien was to be kicked out; Mr. Lynch was to retire; and Mr. Wrench was to be appointed an Estates Commissioner. There would then only remain Mr. Fitzgerald and Judge Meredith. Were all the reports to be made by them? If so, it would be perfectly monstrous. It was perfectly plain that if the reports were not made by the Estates Commissioners they would have to be made by Judge Meredith and Mr. Fitzgerald; and that would, be a very mischievous proceeding.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the whole of the clause would be either useless or mischievous. It was not the Land Commissioners who made the report; they only signed it. As far as the clause was concerned, it merely dispensed with the signatures of the Land Commissioners, and was introduced to cover the nakedness of the Land Commission, which, as soon as the Bill was passed, would consist only of the gentleman named by the hon. Member for East Mayo. It was the report of the journeyman who was sent down to the county that was signed by the Commissioners. The futility of fair rent appeals had often been commented upon; but, after all, if the Court did not see the farm it heard the evidence. But in those cases the Commissioners neither heard the evidence nor saw the farm.

  1453
  The entire section was absolutely futile and of no value; and, whether it was left in or taken out, exactly the same amount of judicial acumen would be applied to the report, whether it was signed by one person or two persons. The report did not really represent the opinion of the gentlemen who signed it. The delay to which the right hon. Gentleman referred was not a judicial delay; it was an attorney's delay or a receiver's delay, and had no connection with the judicial persons concerned. It was also provided that Section 40 was not to apply to the case of a present occupier under a letting. It had been already provided in the Bill that Court-letting holdings should only be sold to the extent of £1,000 advance; and it was now proposed that the section should not apply at all in cases of demesne land, or land suitable for building sites. That looked magnificent; it looked a paternal exercise of jurisdiction by the Land Judge. But the real intention was to screw up the price in favour of the landlord as against the unfortunate tenant. The Judge might be told that there was land in the neighbourhood of Skibbereen suitable for building. How could the Judge know that? Of course, some agent or receiver, anxious to screw an additional sum out of the tenants, might tell him. Then there were to be no townparks; but with two or three exceptions every city and town in Ireland was shrinking. It was also to be provided that where the Land Commission reported that three-fourths of the tenants would not sell, the Land Judge was not to apply Section 40. Had any such case arisen? If so, he was not aware of it. The whole clause was either of no value at all, or was purely mischievous; and it would be better for the right hon. Gentleman, instead of taking the official view, to strike it out altogether.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that the clause provided that one Commissioner was to inspect the land, and make a report, and that if the Land Judge disagreed with that report, three Commissioners were to report. But after the Bill was passed there would not be three Land Commissioners left. That was the difficulty which he saw.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that perhaps the words he used were not clear enough to convey his meaning. He meant the Committee were not dealing with the Estates Commissioners as Estates Commissioners; but the Estates Commissioners would also be Land Commissioners; and no doubt Mr. Finucane and Mr. Bailey would be available under the section. It was not a very large question, as there would not be so many Section 40 sales in the future. He submitted to the Committee that it was a perfectly short and fair plan that one Commissioner should make a report, and that if the Land Judge did not agree with him, three Commissioners should report. At present a case might go through the whole roster of the Land Commission before a decision was arrived at. The hon. Member for North Louth took exception to Paragraph 2; but that introduced safeguards to prevent parks being sold. Where the landlord wanted his park it was provided that he should have it; but where he did not want it, he did not see why it should not be dealt with in order to enlarge very small holdings in the locality. It was not a matter which affected the State or the landlord; it was a matter which affected the smaller tenants.
  *MR. O'SHEEsaid that in his opinion the new provision would make for delay. In the first place, it was based on a hypothesis which had never materialised in fact. There were very few cases during the twenty-two years in which the Land Acts were in operation in which the two Commissioners had disagreed, because they always adopted the principle of splitting the difference. How the sub-section would work out would be as follows: Judge Ross had declared over and over again in public Court that it was an accepted principle in the conduct of his proceedings that he would never accept a lower price than the Commissioners reported ought to be taken, except at the request of the incumbrancers or owner or both. The result would be that where the single Commissioner, now to be substituted for the two Commissioners, was in disagreement with the Land Judge it would always be because the Land Judge considered the advance too low, and the only object of referring the matter to the three Commissioners was

  1455
  to induce them to accept the view of the Land Judge that the advance first suggested was too small. The result would be to put up the price. He thought the section referred to did not refer to the Land Commissioners. It dealt with the Commissioners sent by the Land Commissioners to inspect the holding and not with the Land Commissioners who sat in Dublin. The language of the section was very vague and it ought to be made clear.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that here, as in every other case, the Government proposed to reverse the decision of the Court of Appeal, and to reverse it in a sense injurious to the tenants, as they had already reversed it in the case of Lord Owen's estates. He had been very curious to see what this Section 40 meant, and he had assumed, as anyone would assume, that there was some machinery in it which entitled Judge Ross to refer the matter back to the Land Commission, but upon looking it up he found there was no machinery whatever. This was a most mischievous proposal. It must be remembered that nobody saw these holdings at all except the inspector. The Land Commissioners did not see them. The Land Judge did not see them. The Land Commissioner signed the report. The words of the section were—
  "The Land Commissioners shall at the request of the Land Judge cause the estate to be inspected."
  They having caused it to be inspected and fixed the price, Judge Ross, who had not seen the property, thought he was entitled to put the price by the Land Court, which had seen it, which he had no power to do. This was an attempt to reverse the decision of a Court of equal jurisdiction with his own. This was part of the Murrough O'Brien conspiracy. Of that he was satisfied. First of all the Government provide that the Land Commission shall consist of only one man, and then, if Judge Ross is not satisfied with the price that has been arrived at, he is to get that man to raise it. This was an anti-Murrough O'Brien section and was designed to turn Mr. Murrough O'Brien out. He hoped Mr. Murrough O'Brien would sit tight and refuse to be turned out. Judge Ross had no power to refer the matter back to the Laud Commissioners, who were the persons to inspect the land. All he could do was
  1456
  to ask the receiver for a report. The receiver was not an independent person at all as compared with the Land Commissioners. The Estate receiver had no object whatever except to enhance the value of the report. It was quite clear that the class of drafting which ran through so many sections of the Bill was personal drafting. This clause, he would venture to say, was drafted in the Land Judge's Court and sent to the right hon. Gentleman direct from that Court, and whoever drew it drew it solely with the view of humiliating Mr. Murrough O'Brien, or at any rate with the view of depriving the tenants of his fairness and independence.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he could not accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's account of the origin of the clause. He believed the provisions of this clause would make Section 40 work more smoothly and would not prejudice the tenants.
  MR. DILLONsaid he put down the Amendment for the purpose of eliciting some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman, and if he were right in believing that if Sub-section 3 came into force and Section 40 of the Act of 1896 was suspended that the Estates Commissioners could proceed under Section 6 of the present Bill, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid Sub-section 3 was drafted to deal with cases where the Land Commissioners sold without any advance at all. In those cases under Section 40 of the Act of 1896 nothing happened and the Commissioner's had to deal with the case as a congested estate.
  MR. TULLYsaid it came to this: that a single Estate Commissioner could make a report as to what should be sold and, if Judge Ross agreed with the Commissioner, they could settle the matter between them. Under this clause Wrench and Judge Ross would be able to sell an unencumbered estate, and Finucane and Bailey would have nothing to say.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether the hon. Member would after the word "consideration" insert "on any question except that of price." It had been

  1457
  decided that Judge Ross had no power to enhance the price fixed by the Land Commissioners, and this was simply an attempt to enable him to say—"The price is not big enough; I want you to give more." Unless the provision was intended to be hostile to the tenants, some such words as had been suggested were necessary.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid the object of the sub-section was obvious. By Section 40 of the Act of 1896 more than one Commissioner was concerned in determining the value of the holdings and the sum to be advanced. Those Commissioners might disagree, and this subsection was intended to solve the difficulty.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that no such disagreements had ever been heard of. It was impossible for these Gentlemen to have disagreed, because if they disagreed they could not make a report; they had invariably made a report, therefore they had not disagreed. This proposal was simply an effort to enable Judge Ross to get over the decision of the Court of Appeal by which it was laid down that he had no authority to raise prices.
  MR. TULLYthought some attention should be given to a point which arose when the zones did not exist in their entirety. The sub-section simply meant that Judge Ross could force prices above the maximum.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. T. M. HEALYmoved the insertion of words limiting the reconsideration to "any question other than one of price." The Land Judge would still be able to obtain from the Land Commission a report on any conceivable subject except that of price over which the Court of Appeal had decided he had no jurisdiction. If such jurisdiction was to be given, it ought to be done by actual words. As it stood, the provision was an indirect means of enabling Judge Ross to subvert the law of the land; it could have no other meaning.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 28, line 87, after the word 'reconsideration' to insert the words 'on any question other than one of price.'"—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. WYNDHAMreminded the hon. Member than on an earlier clause the Government had not seen their way to take away from Judge Ross the discretion indubitably vested in him to protect the interests of mortgagees and others in the estate. The decisions under Section 40, as he understood, were that Judge Ross must sell; he might not fix the price, but he could go on refusing prices to the end of time if he held that the prices were unjust to the persons whose interests he had to protect. This sub-section was intended, to bring such a conflict to an issue as rapidly as possible.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the Chief Secretary's statement was inaccurate with regard to Section 40. The Land Judge could not go on refusing, he was compelled by statute to make a definite offer to the tenant. The meaning of that was that as soon as the report came in from the Land Commission, the encumbrancer or any outside person might offer more, but the Land Judge was bound at some figure to give the right of pre-emption to the tenant. There could not be indefinite delay. The clause proposed an entire change of procedure, for which no case whatever had been made out. The proposal was simply that where there were no higher offers, the Land Judge was to refer the report back, and, because he thought the price not high enough, to bring to his aid Mr. Justice Meredith and Mr. Justice Fitzgerald to overrule Mr. Murrough O'Brien in a pure question of price. Such a change would be most mischievous to the interests of the tenants, and was a reflection on the draftsman of Clause 40—a clause which the right hon. Gentleman had declared to be one of the best drafted sections that had ever passed the British Parliament.
  MR. ATKINSONwas understood to say that the business of Judge Ross was to consider the interests of all parties, and to make to the tenants such an offer as he considered just and reasonable. He had power to fix the price; but he had no power to fix the amount of the advance. Those two things ought not to be confounded. No such substantial change of procedure as had been suggested was being made.
  MR. TULLYsaid that unless the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Louth was accepted it would lead to a great screwing up of prices. Mr. Sexton's view was that the result of the operation of this proposal would be to induce the Land Judges to put the screw on the tenants.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid it seemed to him that the answer of the Attorney-General was a mere technicality, because the price and the advance were the same thing so far as the tenant was concerned. The tenant could only offer what the Land Commission advanced and the effect of this Amendment would be that a larger sum would be granted. No delays had arisen by reason of the action of the Land Commission.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
  Clause 54 agreed to.
  Clause 55.
  *MR. BUTCHERsaid that the object of his Amendment was to ensure that certain Crown reversions should be valued like any other Crown interest by the Land Commission and should be got rid of under the sale to the tenant. Some of these reversions were a most singular class of property which in the open market would not fetch one farthing. It had been decided that this particular class of reversions with which the Amendment dealt were not superior interests vested in the Crown under the Act of 1896. The value of these reversions was not estimated like all other reversions, and the result was that the Treasury, acting through the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, demanded 1 per cent. of the purchase
  1460
  money as the price at which they sold these worthless reversions. The Amendment proposed that these reversions should be valued like every other superior interest was valued by the Land Commission, at whatever was considered to be a fair value. He begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 29, line 27, after the word 'Dublin,' to insert the words '(5) The expression' 'superior interest' 'in Section 31 Sub-section 8 of the Act of 1896 shall include any reversion or remainder of the Crown expectant upon the determination of any estate in the lands sold to any person, and the price or compensation to be paid in respect of the redemption of the same shall be determined in the manner provided by Section 31 of the Act of 1896 as amended by this Act in respect of superior interests vested in the Crown expectant on the determination of any lease or term.'"—(Mr. Butcher.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Has the hon. Member obtained the assent of the Crown? It seems to me that this Amendment would endanger the interest of the Crown.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the hon. Member for York might be committed for high treason.
  MR. BUTCHERsaid he certainly had not obtained the assent of the Crown, but he thought the Chief Secretary might do so, and thus sweep away what was undoubtedly a serious blot upon the operation of this Bill. The effect was to enable the Treasury to get 1 per cent. of the purchase money for property which was worth nothing at all. Upon this point he supposed he should have the support of hon. Members from Ireland representing both landlords and tenants, and if the assent of the Crown was necessary he asked the Chief Secretary to get that assent.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think this is an Amendment which can be moved unless the hon. Member is prepared to say that he has obtained the assent of the Crown. If he has not done so his Amendment is out of order.
  MR. BUTCHERasked the Chief Secretary whether he would take steps to obtain the assent of the Crown and introduce a similar proposal on Report.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! It is out of order to move this proposal without having previously obtained the assent of the Crown.
  MR. BUTCHERsaid that Sub-section 6 of Clause 55 left it at the discretion of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to remit any case involving a question of law or other question to the proper legal authority. His Amendment made the sub-section read that the Commissioners would be bound to remit such a question which ought not to be left to their discretion.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 29, line 28, to leave out the word 'may,' and insert the word 'shall.'"—(Mr. Butcher.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'may' stand part of the Clause."
  MR. O'SHEEsaid that any Amendment intended to stir up the Woods Commissioners was most important, for they had been the cause of numerous delays in the past.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that this clause had been drafted after very long conferences between the Irish Government and the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, and this proviso was put in for the purpose of relieving them from those obligations. Under these circumstances he did not think it would be proper to accept this Amendment.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he thought that the action of the Government in this matter was hardly fair, because the whole of this money was taken out of Ireland and spent in England, and not one sixpence of it went to Ireland. This was only a question of procedure to compel the Commissioners to do what they really ought to do as a matter of course, and that was to remit cases to the Land Judge or the Land Commission involving questions of law.
  1462
  Was that an unreasonable thing? Why should this Department, because it happened to be connected with Royal properties, have a right superior to any other Department of the State? Surely the landlord was entitled to some better protection. Considering how strongly the landlords fought the Nationalists when they got some concession from the Government, he was amazed at their patience.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the hon. and learned Member for Louth was probably aware that, as far as the Commissioners of Woods and Forests were concerned, drastic changes in connection with Crown property were not always very favourably received.
  MR. BUTCHERsaid he could not conceive why the Commissioners of Woods should be entitled to decide questions of law. They were not a legal body, and if questions of law came before them these questions should be remitted to the Land Judge. It was the right of every subject to have his case referred to a Court of law, and he did not see why anyone should be deprived of that right when the Commissioners of Woods were concerned.
  MR. WYNDHAMdid not think he could make any modification of the clause. The Amendment of his hon. friend would not run with other parts of the clause. He would consider the matter, for it was not easy to see at short notice how the clause could be amended.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would have any objection to the defeat of the Government on the Amendment. Perhaps it might have some effect on the Commissioners of Woods.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he would have a great objection to the defeat of the Government. Besides, this financial clause was bound up with other financial clauses to which the representatives of the tenants attached great importance.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. BUTCHERmoved to substitute "Judicial Commissioner" for "Land Commission" in Sub-section (6).
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 29, line 30, to leave out the words 'Land Commission' and insert the words 'Judicial Commission.'"—(Mr. Butcher.)
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he would accept that.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. BUTCHERmoved an Amendment dealing with the question of costs in cases where the Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues are parties. When the Commissioners of Woods embarked in a litigation in which they were unsuccessful they should pay the costs of the successful party. The old theory that costs should not be awarded against the Crown in unsuccessful actions was antiquated and wrong. He asked the Chief Secretary to see that the Commissioners of Woods, when wrong, should pay in the same way as a private individual who was unsuccessful.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 29, line 35, at end, to add the words '(8) In all cases in which the Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, are parties to any proceedings in the High Court or the Land Commission, the Court or Judge shall have power to award costs to or against said Commissioners.'"—(Mr. Butcher.)
  Question proposed "That those words be there added."
  MR. ATKINSONsaid he agreed with his hon. and learned friend to a great extent. The whole question of costs in cases where the Crown was concerned required consideration. This was not the proper time for that, nor was this the proper clause on which to propose such a change.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsuggested that words should be added so that Subsection 7 would run in this way—"Rules for the purpose of this section shall be made by the Commissioners of Woods, with the approval of the Lord Chancellor, and such rules may include rules as to the award of costs to or against
  1464
  the Commissioners of Woods." That would enable the Commissioners of Woods to make the rules. The Attorney-General said this was not the time for making such a change in the law. He had always noticed that was the reply when an inconvenient proposal was made. This would be an admirable occasion for making the change. There was no time like the present, and he thought his proposal to leave it optional to the Commissioners to make rules was a suitable compromise.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was not in a position to deal with the matter at present. The question was entirely for the Treasury, and he would have it considered before the Report stage, but he could not hold out any great hope that a change would be made.
  MR. T. M. HEALYwas amazed at the landlords of Ireland standing up for a proposal of this kind. He reminded the Committee that this was a question affecting the interests of tenants, for sales would be hung up while these matters were being determined. He remembered that Lord Ormonde's estate took at least eighteen months to litigate. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to accept some such suggestion as he had just adumbrated.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was not in a position to accept the suggestion at present, but he would consider the matter before Report.
  MR. T. M. HEALYappealed to the Secretary to the Treasury to give favourable consideration to the Amendment. This was not a matter to be passed over in a cursory or summary manner. He was sorry they had not the advantage of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's presence, because they knew the right hon. Gentleman was in favour of free trade and concessions of that kind being made.
  And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  IRISH LAND BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Mr. J. W. LOWTHER Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.
  Clause 55.
  Another Amendment proposed.
  "In page 29, line 35, at the end, to add the words, (8) In all cases in which the Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues are parties to any proceedings in the High Court or the Land Commission, the Court or Judge shall have power to award costs to or against said Commissioners."—(Mr. Butcher.)
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the question of whether the remainder in fact could be proved must depend on a large number of circumstances. Some of these remainders had been created by deed as far back as Edward III., and were dependent on certain individuals of clans, tribes or families. Take the family of Butler. In Ireland there were tens of thousands of Butlers. The reversion expectant on the death of a Butler would involve enquiry as to whether that Butler was the true Butler. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests, sitting in an office in Dublin, were the persons to determine the value of the reversion expectant and whether a suit should be launched in respect of it. He put it to the Chief Secretary, was it fair or reasonable that they should begin legislation of that kind, and put the parties who were owners in presentee to enormous expense, and when they were beaten, as he hoped they would be in every case, that they should escape scatheless from the burden which was imposed upon the humblest of litigants? He put this from the point of view of the dignity of the Crown itself, in whose name so much unnecessary litigation was commenced. If it had been a landlord question he should have no interest in it, but he looked at it from the tenant's point of view. Take the case of a
  1466
  solicitor selling an estate. He would have to make copies of an enormous number of deeds, some of which would be written in Latin or old Norman, which would be very difficult to read, which the Commissioners of Woods would not be able to read, and which he did not believe even the Chief Secretary, with all his attainments, would be able to read. In fact, there was only one person who could read them, and that was Mr. Wale, who had just been raised to the magistracy of Dublin. And while all this was being done the tenants would be waiting to have the fee-simple vested in them. This would not occur only in one case but in tens of thousands of cases, because everyone knew that the tendency of a family in Ireland was not to perish, and the question of a family having perished would not arise, and it was not fair that the burden and the intolerable delay involved should be thrown upon the people. The right hon. Gentleman had said he would consider this matter on the Report stage, but it could not be put off till then. It was a matter of finance, and the right hon. Gentleman knew very well that if he attempted to deal with a matter of finance on Report, Mr. Speaker would rule him out of order. It was a matter that must be determined here and now. It could not be raised in the House of Lords, because it was a matter of Commons privilege. He therefore suggested that the rules should include a rule as to the awarding of costs. Up to now both the landlords and tenants had treated the Government very fairly. They had not pressed their objections unduly, and it would be deplorable that a division should be taken at this time when the Government had not their forces behind them. This would rest like the mildew of delay upon the whole process of the Irish Courts, and if these actions were started at all they ought to be started under a penalty for costs.
  THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. JAMES CAMPBELL,)thought the hon. and learned Member attached undue importance to this question. It was an absolutely insignificant matter. It would be impossible for the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to start a number of actions as the hon. Member suggested they might. The Commissioners of Woods were not a

  1467
  corporation, and had no power to pursue in their own name. They had a power to appear in the Land Judge's Court to protect the interests of the Crown, but it was always open to the Judge to order the question to be determined by action at law; and in that case the action must be entered by the Attorney-General, and in the event of its being unsuccessful there was the ordinary litigant's liability for costs. In 99 cases out of 100 the claim of the Commissioners in the Land Judge's Court was admitted, so that the whole matter was really unimportant.
  *MR. BUTCHERsaid the explanation of the hon. and learned Gentleman had only proved that the position of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests was more untenable than he had thought, because it came to this, that if they indulged in litigation outside the Land Court they had to proceed through the medium of the Attorney-General, and were liable to costs if unsuccessful; whereas in any proceedings before the Land Court or the Land Judge they were to get off without costs at all. He asked that they should be placed on the same footing in the Land Court as they were in other Courts. He understood that the subject was under consideration, but he thought it would be unwise to allow this question to go. They had now an opportunity, as he understood, of putting the Commissioners of Woods and Forests on an intelligible basis. They could put them in a reasonable position to-night, and he hoped they would do so, and that the Chief Secretary would allow them to put an end to the peculiar and unreasonable position in which they now found these Commissioners.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid to some extent the hon. and learned Gentleman had met the position. He thought the best way to deal with the matter now would be to provide at the end of the clause that no proceedings should be taken under this clause by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests except in the name of the Attorney-General. He did not see, after what had been said, that the right hon. Gentleman could object to that.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was far from saying that anything the hon. and learned Gentleman had urged was unreasonable, but he would ask him to listen while he replied to the hon. Member for York who had urged that they should not allow this question to go now that they had got hold of it. It might be a possibly harassing element imported into land purchase in Ireland, but in spite of his best endeavours he had not been able to deal with Crown rights in this Bill. They would all agree on Report to recommit the Billon this point when it could be adjusted. When the Bill had become an Act, and experience had shown the exceptional position of these reversionary interests, it would be easy to convince Parliament of the necessity of dealing with the matter in an exceptional way. To pursue the controversy now only retarded the Committee stage of the Bill.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid if the right hon. Gentleman would undertake to recommit the Bill on Clause 55 he would not pursue the question. He accepted the position which the right hon. Gentleman had taken—viz., that he would, on the Report stage agree to the recommittal of Clause 55, if it was necessary to argue this question of Crown rent.
  *MR. BUTCHERsaid that after the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 55, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 56.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 30, line 6, at end to add the words—'(3) The trustees of any estate sold under this Act or the Public Trustee may, after liquidation of all liabilities, on the application of the landlord or his representatives, advance out of the purchase money to the landlord a sum not exceeding one year's purchase.'"—(Dr. Thompson.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid he was not quite sure whether this Amendment

  1469
  was really an Amendment to the clause, or whether it ought not to come as a separate clause. Perhaps the hon. Member would elucidate?
  DR. THOMPSONsaid he was not quite sure himself whether the Amendment was relevant. The object was to further induce, if possible, the landlord to sell by enabling the trustees or the Public Trustee to give him a year's rent out of the money at their disposal.
  MR. ATKINSONsaid that the landlord would get any balance that was left after all the charges against the estate were satisfied; but the idea of the trustees paying away one year's rent out of trust funds which did not belong to them was absurd, and it was perfectly impossible to authorise anything of the kind.
  DR. THOMPSONsaid he might state that the Amendment had been drawn up for him by a lawyer.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 56 agreed to.
  Clause 57 agreed to.
  Clause 58.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 30, line 28, to leave out the words 'Land Commission,' and insert the words 'Judicial Commissioner."'—(Mr. Butcher.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'Land Commission' stand part of the clause."
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid he could quite understand the Judicial Commissioner going in where there was a question of law; but this was a question of price, and what had the Judicial Commissioner to do with that?
  MR. ATKINSONpointed out that the price was to be determined by the Land Commission or the Land Judge.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that the Land Judge was practically an auctioneer.
  MR T. M. HEALYsaid that the most ignorant man would have to yield to argument. He suggested to the hon. and learned Member to leave things as they were. In his opinion, it did not matter a button whether the price was determined by the Land Commission or the Judicial Commissioner.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. LONSDALEmoved:—
  "In Clause 58, page 30, line 29, at end, add 'and in no case shall the redemption price of the superior interest to which any holding is subject (including the cost of proving the title to such superior interest) exceed the amount of the purchase money advanced in respect of such holding, exclusive of any percentage payable to the vendor under Section 43 of this Act'"
  He said that when the middleman landlord and the occupying tenant came to adjust their respective interests the head landlord would in many cases get all the benefit, and the middleman landlord, without whose consent the sale could not be carried out, would get nothing. If the middleman agreed to sell, he would be subjecting himself to an immense amount of cost, and trouble and in the end would have the mortification of seeing the owner of the superior interest quietly pocketing the whole of the money given in respect of the tranaction. Human nature being what it is, it was very certain that in these circumstances many middlemen landlords would decide to hold on to their land, if the clause were carried in its present form, and a very large number of tenants would be debarred from becoming the owners of their holdings. He was desirous that the same facilities should be given to occupying tenants who held under middlemen landlords as were granted to tenants who held under other tenures. But the clause as it stood practically asked the middlemen landlords, who had been very hard hit by the two reductions of rent which they had had to make to their tenants, to bear the whole of any loss resulting from the scheme of land purchase. That, in his judgment, was unfair. If the purchase advance, apart from the bonus, was insufficient to meet all the charges on the land, then the various interests concerned, including that of the head owner, should bear a proportionate share of the loss connected with the transfer of the land.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 30, line 29, at end, to add the words, 'and in no case shall the redemption price of the superior interest to which any holding is subject (including the cost of proving the title to such superior interest) exceed the amount of the purchase money advanced in respect of such holding, exclusive of any percentage, payable to the vendor under Section 43 of this Act.'"—(Mr. Lonsdale.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he could not accept the Amendment, which, in his opinion, would be absolutely unworkable and wreck the whole Bill. Land tenure in Ireland was already sufficiently complicated without introducing another complication. Perhaps his hon. friend meant to take a general bird's eye view of the whole estate, but the words he proposed to introduce were unnecessary, because they could not take more out of the purchase price than there was in it.
  *MR. LONSDALEsaid that what he wanted was that the middleman landlord should not bear the whole cost of the transfer.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that the Amendment did not state that. There was a great inducement to the middlemen landlords to sell, irrespective of all matters connected with the redemption of the superior interest.
  MR. T. M. HEALYconfessed that he could not see how the case raised by the hon. Member for Mid Armagh was to be met. When the redemption price was more than the advance, what was to happen then? Where was the money to come from? The question would have to be grappled with when the Trinity College estates came up for review.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he admitted that the Trinity College case was more unique and complicated than any other, and it would come up later on. It had been said that under the Ashbourne Act the proceedings had gone on perfectly well, that under that Act the superior interest was taken out of the purchase money, but that occurred very rarely.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid it had occurred within the last three months.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that under existing procedure it was clearly a case for arbitration; but under this Bill there was an appeal to the Land Judge, or Judicial Commissioner. He knew of no case of the redemption of the superior interest for more than twenty-five years. No doubt there were difficulties, and that was the main reason why he proposed to give the bonus to the vendor. The proposal in the Bill was, on the whole, a vast improvement on the existing procedure.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that the answer of the right hon. Gentleman practically amounted to this, that they could not meet the difficulty that had arisen, and that the cases were not numerous. But such cases did exist. The Chief Secretary had hinted that when the amount of funds was limited, they should cut their coat according to their cloth, but that did not solve the difficulty.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLpointed out that the number of cases in which the redemption money would be insufficient would be very few indeed.
  MR. WYNDHAMsuggested that the clause provided a rough-and-ready solution which would go far to meet the difficulty raised by the Amendment of the hon. Member for Mid Armagh. If, after the Bill had been in operation some years, cases of exceptional difficulty arose, they could be dealt with by their successors should Parliament see fit to do so. No doubt there were difficulties, but the general plan of giving the bonus to the vendor would, in his opinion, afford the best solution—if a rough-and-ready one—in ninety-nine cases of difficulty out of every hundred.
  MR. FLAVINreferred to the action of Trinity College, Dublin, in raising the rents of the middlemen by 45 per cent., whereas the rents had been reduced by 40 per cent. through the operation of the Land Act. These middlemen would not be induced by this Bill to sell, especially as Trinity College was holding out for a redemption of the head rent at twenty-seven years. Some 7,000 tenants were affected by this, and it was, therefore, a very serious matter.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he could only repeat that the case of Trinity College was one of great complexity, but he did not see how the Amendment would solve the difficulty.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: We had better defer this discussion till we come to the question of Trinity College.
  MR. LONSDALEasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. POWERasked how the head rents were to be dealt with. The tenants, as a rule, were prepared to give from sixteen to eighteen years purchase, while the landlords were demanding twenty-five years purchase. The result would be that sales would be blocked all over Ireland. Were the Estates Commissioners empowered to make any terms on this point? He had heard of a case in his own constituency in which the landlords were asking thirty-three years purchase! How was such a case to be dealt with?
  MR. ATKINSONwas understood to say that disputes as to superior interests would have to be dealt with by means of arbitration. That was provided for under existing Acts.
  MR. KENNEDYsaid he had some personal experience in this mutter, as he was an unfortunate middleman. He wanted to sell to his tenants, but he did not know what price his head landlord would get for his head rent. He got 40 per cent. of the whole rent. How was he to determine at what price he could sell to the tenants until he knew what he was himself to be allowed. The head landlord having a superior interest might be entitled to 5 per cent. or 10 per cent. more than the middleman, but the proportion ought to be settled in the Act itself, otherwise the middleman might be in a very unfortunate position for the tenants.
  MR. ATKINSON: The value of his interest will depend on the rent.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Middlemen may make up their minds that they will be flung to the winds.
  MR. BUTCHERasked as to the tithe rent-charge. It was suggested that in no case would more than twenty years purchase be allowed for that. He hoped that that would be altered, and that the question of redemption would be adjudicated upon in a proper way.
  MR. DILLONsaid the owners of tithe rent-charge had only their own brutality to thank for the position in which they found themselves. It served them right.
  MR. T. M. HEALYreminded the tithe owners that they reaped an enormous advantage under the last Local Government (Ireland) Act. Trinity College alone gained at least £1,000 a year under that Act. The middleman also reaped great advantage, and now they found themselves between the upper and nether millstones, and would be ground to powder. The sooner they made up their minds to a speedy death the better it would be for them.
  Clause 58, agreed to.
  Clauses 59, 60, 61, 62, and 63 agreed to
  Clause 64.
  *MR. HEMPHILLmoved to add that the determination of any such questions should have the effect of and be subject to the same right of appeal as a final order of the High Court. His object was, he said, to secure the right of appeal from the decision of the Divisional Court to the High Court. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would have no difficulty in accepting the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 32, line 7, at end, to add the words 'and any such determination shall have the effect of and be subject to the same right of appeal as a final order of the High Court.'"—(Mr. Hemphill.)
  Question proposed, "That those word be there added."
  MR. JAMES CAMPBELL: We accept the Amendment, although we hardly think it necessary.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Clause 64, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 65,
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENmoved to amend the proviso in the second sub-section by altering seven years to two years as the period after which sinking fund payments should be made for land not disposed of. He expressed the opinion that without compulsory powers there never would be a satisfactory settlement of Connaught; but even with the powers at present possessed by the Congested Districts Board they ought to have effected at least ten times as much as they had done in the way of getting people on to holdings of a decent size. It was a matter of supreme importance that the Committee should give serious attention to this part of the Bill, which affected at least half a million of their people. He was afraid that the congested districts clauses of the Bill were its weakest part. Had it not been for the congested districts difficulty they would never have had that Bill, and it could not be too strongly stated that if the principal object of the Bill was the peace of Ireland it ran a serious risk of failure unless these clauses were very materially altered for the better, and unless above all the Congested Districts Board could be in some way stimulated and spurred on to more rapid progress. They were now in this position. They knew what was wrong and what was the only complete remedy, and yet year after year, since 1890, the Congested Districts Board had only done for a few score of tenants what it ought to have done for thousands. In thirteen years, out of an income of something nearly approaching a million of money, they had only succeeded in migrating some sixty or seventy tenants, while, in the same period, from 80,000 to 90,000 of the cream of the young men and women of the country had gone abroad. There must be something wrong which induced such a finicking policy. He was afraid that if the present Board had compulsory powers the results would be almost
  1476
  equally insignificant. It was necessary in his opinion to completely revolutionise their present methods. In his humble judgment, the moment the Congested Districts Board got possession of an estate they ought to divide it into holdings of a reasonable size, hand it over at once to the new purchasers, and make any necessary advances to them for rebuilding their homes or for fencing; but let the people do the work of improvement themselves. Let them give the people possession of the land for the same money which the Congested Districts Board paid to the landlords originally. Under the present system, a single official, no doubt very competent—Mr. Doran—was first required to inquire into every particular of every estate to be purchased. After it was purchased he was required to settle everything as to the re-arrangement of every particular holding—questions of boundaries, turbary and every little village dispute. After that, the Congested Districts Board began to undertake an elaborate series of building, fencing, draining and other works, which went on for years; the Board all the time retaining the land in their own hands and obliged to employ an enormous staff of officials in carrying out works which, without offence, he might call grandmotherly improvements. After all those years, when at last the land was re-sold to the tenants, they had to buy the improvements as well as to pay the purchase money originally paid by the Board. He did not wish to say anything harsh about the work of the Congested Districts Board; but this work of model cottage building, this benevolent despotism as to the affairs of every particular tenant, might have been advisable at the beginning of these operations by way of experiment, but he submitted to the Chief Secretary that it was intolerable that that sort of thing should go on any longer. Life was not long enough. While the Board was spoon-feeding—he did not wish to put it offensively—a few score of show tenants, the population was flying and the country was losing the very cream of its young men, who would really make migratory schemes a success if they got a chance, and would regenerate the country. What the Board

  1477
  was doing was re-colonising the country, just as if it were a new country. It was, however, a richer country than most of the colonies, and it was certainly not by tedious methods of experiment, such as were practised by the Board, that the colonies were made populous and prosperous.
  He would give the Committee some particulars of the monstrous snails-pace at which the land purchase and re-sale operations of the Board were carried on. The Clare sland estate was purchased in 1895, and was not re-sold to the tenants until five years afterwards; and the tenants were obliged to pay £10,000 purchase money where the Board had only paid £5,000. No doubt the tenants had the benefit of the balance in improvements; but they could have done tolerably well without such expensive improvements. One of them was a sort of Great Wall of China built right across the Island from one end to the other; and during all the time that work was being carried out, the money and energy of the Board were lost to other estates in just as great need of assistance as Clare Island. The Port Royal estate was purchased in 1898, and after five years' delay has not yet been re-sold to the tenants. There again a large sum had been spent in improvements; but the tenants did not ask for them; and they would have to pay for them in addition to paying the purchase-money that the Board originally paid. In another estate there was also a delay of five years, and the tenants did not yet know how much purchase-money they would have to pay. As long ago as June, 1899, Lord Sligo announced that he was ready to sell half of his enormous estate; and the Board had been for four years nibbling at negotiations for its purchase. He believed—the right hon. Gentleman would correct him if he were wrong—that more than a year ago the bargain was practically completed; and yet from that day to this the Board had not taken one practical step which would enable the tenants to know what their fate was to be. He would give a still more glaring instance of how the system had failed to work. On Lord Lucan's estate there were eighteen families living on twenty-two acres of worn-out land, and outside the fence there was a rich grazing tract, large enough to give them comfortable farms, which was in the hands of a
  1478
  broken-down grazier who might be very easily dealt with indeed. Fifteen months ago the right hon. Gentleman complimented Lord Lucan on his unselfishness in having consented to sell his estate. He need not tell the right hon. Gentleman with what delight those poor people learned, on the right hon. Gentleman's own authority, that that estate had been purchased by the Board, and that they would have a glorious chance of getting their holdings enlarged; yet not a single step had since been taken in that direction, and those poor people, even to this day, were left in miserable doubt as to whether the estate was purchased or not. There was no earthly reason, if the operations of the Board had only been carried on with proper expedition, why the bargain should not have been completed, and why the tenants should not now be raising their first crop on their enlarged holdings, instead of being obliged to cross over to England for the harvest, and instead of the poor girls being compelled in greater numbers than ever to go to America. The Dillon estate was the one considerable operation the Congested Districts Board had to show for thirteen years work, and even then they had failed to stop the exodus of labourers to England. The Board had failed to provide the people with economic holdings simply because they had failed to purchase the magnificent grass tracts that bounded the estate and extended for twenty or twenty-five miles away to Claremorris and Ballinrobe.
  The cases he had mentioned were all cases taken from the one single county in Connaught where the Board had anything considerable to show for themselves. As to the other congested counties in Connaught, and still more outside Connaught, the operations of the Board had been merely a drop in the bucket; and they did not even attempt to deal with this problem. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman it was not in any mere faultfinding spirit that he had quoted those instances. He knew the difficulties, and did full justice to the good intentions of the Board, to the ability of Mr. Doran, and to the very remarkable insight that the right hon. Gentleman himself had with reference to this question. He undoubtedly knew more about it than any other English statesman had ever learned; but

  1479
  the right hon. Gentleman would perhaps excuse him if he spoke with some little heat on the subject, because he lived amongst those poor people and it was heart-breaking to see year passing after year without anything substantial being done, until the people were absolutely sick with hope deferred and grasped at the opportunity of a passage ticket to take them to America. They must be cruel to be kind; but he would tell the Government that they would be living in a fool's paradise if they thought they were going to save Connaught by peddling transactions of that kind. The Amendment he proposed was only one means, and a very imperfect means, of remedying those delays—namely, by putting some sort of penalty upon the Congested Districts Board for this system of retaining land in their own hands for an unconscionably long period. The clause seemed to contemplate that seven years was not altogether an abnormal period for land to remain in the hands of the Board; and if that were the theory to be acted upon, they would simply be dragging along for another century, no doubt carrying out a certain number of interesting and well-meant experiments, but failing utterly to do what the Archbishop of Tuam once said was the sovereign scheme—namely, to give the people the land, and "Give the people meat," he said, "and they will cook it." This Amendment was only one means of hastening the operations of the Board; but his hon. friends would propose other Amendments. Some stimulus was wanted to put an end to a system which had really reduced the whole operations of the Board to a nullity, and to a complete fiasco and failure in the congested districts of Connaught. Section 3 proposed to further empower the Board to charge the tenant with the cost of those expensive improvements, but he believed the first thing the Board should do was to abandon those costly fiddle-faddles, if he might be excused for so describing them. He would repeat that even with the powers at present possessed by the Board, at least ten times as much land could have been bought up by this time, and distributed among the people. He begged of the right hon. Gentleman to let the people make their own improvements. Let them not be too pedantic about insisting that everything should
  1480
  be in apple-pie order; let the people be given the land without delay, and at cost price, and as fast as ever it could be bought; and they might safely trust to the good sense and enterprise of the people to make necessary improvements, which they could carry out at one-tenth of the cost that would be incurred by the Congested Districts Board. He begged the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether the Amendment would not be giving a hint which was badly wanted to the Board, that they ought not to dally over this work, that they ought to hurry on what was necessary and inevitable, and let the ornamental take care of itself. He would impress on the Chief Secretary that in this matter he could do, practically speaking, what he pleased, without the slightest difficulty or controversy. There was no conflict between landlord and tenant, and he begged him to take advantage of the present opportunity.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 32, line 22, to leave out the word 'seven,' and insert the word 'two.'"—(Mr. William O'Brien.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the clause."
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he agreed with the hon. Gentleman as to the great importance of the subject, but he would find it rather hard to reply without travelling outside the scope of the Amendment, and showing some of the difficulties with which the Board had to contend. He would, of course, deal with the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIEN: Not learned.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid then they started on the same basis. The great difficulty of the Board in dealing with congested districts was generally the want of money, and nothing else. The hon. Gentleman instanced the case of Lord Sligo's estate. The reason why that estate was not bought was not because the Congested Districts Board were dilatory in their operations; it was entirely a question of money. Land stock fell, and neither party would accept

  1481
  the consequence of that fall, and they had been beating the air ever since. Then the hon. Gentleman instanced the case of Lord Lucan's estate; again the difficulty of the Board there was a money difficulty. The purchase of Lord Dillon's estate exhausted all the available funds of the Board for the counties of Mayo and Roscommon; and when they tried to deal with Lord Lucan's very patriotic offer, they could not do so because their funds were exhausted. The delay had been great, and the disappointment had been great. Under the Act of 1896 the Board were allowed to borrow up to the capital value of the Irish Church Surplus Fund; but that was a comparatively small sum, and when it was divided up between the different counties it only amounted to a few hundred thousands for each county, which was not sufficient to enable the Board to go in for any large scheme of migration. At last a blow was struck, and the Dillon estate was bought. It was the first big practical effort made by the Board, but it swallowed up the whole of the credit of the Board in Mayo and Roscommon, so that nothing more could be done in those counties; and it threw such a stress on the means of the Board then available for carrying out all such operations, that it was impossible for the Board to act as boldly as they otherwise would have acted. He was very largely in agreement with the hon. Gentleman when he said that it would be unnecessary in the future to act so exclusively as a paternal Government. In saying that, however, he did not criticise the action of the Board in the past. The standard which the Board had set up had been imitated elsewhere. It was necessary to have a working model; and he thought the Board were right in supplying it. The Board were right in pursuing that course, because the work that was achieved proved to be the main lever which he had in his hands to persuade the House of Commons and his colleagues that it was proper to give the Board further credit facilities and further capital. Unless he could have shown that the standard of life was being raised, that the houses were better houses, that the cattle were being taken out of the houses, and that the hopeless forms of land tenure, such as "rundale," and holdings in mixed plots, were being abolished, he could not have persuaded
  1482
  his colleagues that the Congested Districts Board were a proper body for dealing with these large credits and large cash balances every year. A great part of the work of experiment had now been done. Where a model dwelling had been set up, persons on property which had not been bought by the Board were trying to imitate the standard put before them, and one such house on a hill was a beacon to all who lived within sight of it. The work of the Congested Districts Board in altering the standard of house accommodation had not been thrown away. He did not desire to press the matter too far, but he wished to show that there was great force in what could be urged on behalf of his colleagues on the Board.
  The hon. Member for Cork City now proposed that if the Board failed to put an estate in proper order for re-sale within two years they were to be penalised by having to pay out of their income, sinking fund as well as interest. Nobody was more keen than he that the Board should re-sell at the earliest possible moment, but it was his duty to say that there were parts of the West of Ireland which could not be re-sold until the people on them had done something on their own behalf, aided by public funds. If it were true, as the hon. Member had said, that all that was necessary was to give the ownership to the people, there was no need for the intervention of the Board at all: the people could buy under the ordinary methods of purchase. But there existed parts which had been derelict for the best part of 200 years, without boundaries, with scarcely a road, and no fences. In such cases as he had in mind, three or four years of paternal Government—if it took the form, not of setting up the last new-fangled idea, not of trying to raise the people at one bound to a much higher standard of civilisation, but of building one model house, and giving facilities for building more, showing how land could be reclaimed, carting sand up to a certain point, and allowing the inhabitants to carry out their own improvements—was not a curse, but a blessing. The people had the assurance that they could become the owners of the soil, that their rents would never be increased, that they would never have to go into Court; and if they worked in, not so much with the officers of the

  1483
  Board, but with their local leaders, the priests of the parishes who were in full sympathy with the ideals of the Board, they would become the owners of the soil—and of a soil which was worth owning—and debtors of the State in regard to whom to a large extent no loss whatever would accrue. The hon. Member asked that this penalty should be imposed if the Board failed within two years to improve these hopeless morasses to a point which would justify their being sold in perpetuity on the credit of the general taxpayer. He was convinced that the slowness of the past had been due to inadequacy of resources, not to lack of zeal. He was prepared to admit, however, that it would be necessary to drive ahead more zealously in the future, to divest the Board of much work which ought now to devolve upon the new Department, and for the Department to apply themselves more and more as an expert body to the problem of congestion in its worst forms, using all their credit and cash facilities for that object. Generous aid had been supplied by his right hon. friend by giving them the whole of the pool of the guarantee fund, by placing at their disposal a sum of nearly £1,250,000 for the purchase of untenanted land, altogether outside the ordinary transactions of purchase, and by increasing the income of the Board to £90,000 a year. Having these resources, with the firm intention of making this the chief work of the Board, he asked the Committee that they might be allowed to go on with their duties unfettered by the monetary penalty proposed by the Amendment.
  MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENsaid it was satisfactory to find that the Chief Secretary was not much more pleased than they were themselves with the rate of progress made by the Board. He did not desire unnecessarily to find fault with the Board, or with the gentleman who really had to bear the whole burden of this work. Mr. Doran was a most competent official, but too much had been thrown upon his shoulders; he had been a sort of Atlas, bearing the whole western world for the last ten or twelve years, and it was no disparagement to say that he had not been equal to the burden. The Board had undoubtedly carried out many works of considerable advantage in their small
  1484
  way, but nothing was more certain than the fact that unless the operations of the Board were hurried up, years and decades would pass without anything really being done; the Board as a land-purchasing department might as well be dissolved. Unless the Chief Secretary took strong measures to impress his views upon them they would go on as they had done, spending five-sixths of their income in excellent, but extremely circumscribed, philanthropic projects. The great point was not merely to get possession of the land in derelict districts, but to take the people out of the morasses, and buy for them the magnificent plains that were waiting to be colonised. That was the only real remedy for the present state of things. For this work three or four Mr. Dorans would be necessary, confining themselves to the broad lines of migration schemes, and not concerning themselves with every minute particular of the work. At least £50,000 of the present income, in addition to the £20,000 provided by the Bill, should be set apart for the special work of migration. Above all, the people concerned should have some voice in the management of the Board. With the exception of Dr. O'Donnell and Father O'Hara, there was not a single member of the Board who had any intimate knowledge of the question. It was simply indefensible that the people or the people's representatives in the County Councils should have no voice whatever in the matter. He accepted to the full the statement of the Chief Secretary's own views and intentions, but he felt bound to warn the Committee that up to the present the Board had been a complete failure in the matter of migration and the purchase of land. The work of the Board, if properly carried out, would form the greatest monument the Prime Minister could desire. He appealed to the Chief Secretary, if he could not accept the Amendment, at any rate to be as generous in this part of the Bill as he had been in others. By proportionate concessions being made here a greater work would be done towards the settlement of the land question than would be accomplished by forty Land Acts such as they had had in the past.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the intentions of the Chief Secretary were excellent: he had gone to the root of the

  1485
  question, he sympathised with the people, and he desired to apply a remedy to their difficulty. But the position was this: the present Bill was imperfect, perhaps not to the same degree as previous Bills, but still imperfect, in that it would not settle the great problem in the West of Ireland. They were now dealing with a part of the country where revolutions were made. There would have been very few Land Bills had it not been for this area, and he felt convinced that in leaving this question unsettled they were leaving the Irish land question unsolved. He had never said that this Bill would settle the Irish land question. What he had said was that it would put everything in the way of settlement. He was not very sure that it would put the congested districts even in the way of settlement. There were three things essential to any settlement of this question. First the reorganisation and strengthening of the Congested Districts Board itself. For all practical purposes Mr. Doran was the Board at present. The Board was possessed of excellent intentions, but they did not know the lives of the people, and more men on the spot like Mr. Doran were wanted, not in one centre only, but in all the centres. Secondly, the Board ought to be given the right of pre-emption in all these cases. There were, say, twenty or thirty small holdings of a couple of acres each huddled together, and round them were large grazing tracts. Were they quite sure that these grazing tracts would not be grabbed by the graziers? One of the things that ought to be done was that the Congested Districts Board ought to get the right of pre-emption. Thirdly, the Congested Districts Board ought to have the right of compulsory acquisition. If these three things had been done they would have seen daylight upon this problem. How were they to get possession of these great grazing tracts? The only way to do it would be to grant what the Congested Districts Board had asked for, and that was the right of compulsory acquisition of these grazing tracts. The right hon. Gentleman meant well, but he would have to face these difficulties, and he would have to grant the right of pre-emption before he could finish his scheme. Just as Acts had had to be amended in the past, so it would be found that before many years had
  1486
  expired, in order that these poor people might be redeemed, it would be necessary to get the right of pre-emption and compulsory acquisition of these grazing tracts.
  MR. DILLONsaid that this Amendment had brought them to one of the most important parts of this Bill. In connection with this matter, vital as it was to the lives of the great mass of the poor people, but for whom no Land Bill would ever have been introduced, they were not making any claim that would cost the landlords one sixpence, and therefore the landlords had no interest in opposing these Amendments. They had just heard from the Chief Secretary for Ireland a very remarkable speech, and a most sympathetic and exceedingly well-informed speech; and, whatever their differences might be with him, he thought they would all agree that upon this question of congestion in the West he applied himself to understanding and understood the gravity of this question. In regard to the Amendments which the Nationalists had put down to this clause, the British taxpayer was not concerned, and his security would be rather increased than otherwise. Everybody ought to be agreed in bringing this vital part of the Bill to a successful conclusion. A few points had been mentioned in the Chief Secretary's speech upon which he should like to say a few words. With the general tone of the right hon. Gentleman's speech he felt himself in sympathy. He agreed that the Congested Districts Board had done a very useful work notwithstanding all their failures. The Board was badly constituted in the beginning, and was composed of men who did not understand the work. Consequently for many years their operations were "cribbed, cabined, and confined," not only for want of money, but for want of the actual machinery necessary to carry on the work successfully. A great deal had been accomplished on the Dillon Estate by the little encouragement which the Board had given to the tenants. He believed that it would be greatly to the advantage of the tenants, and more expeditious if the

  1487
  Board in the future would make the tenants a grant or a loan and let them build the houses themselves according to certain specifications. By adopting this course the houses would be built for about half the cost. He gave credit to the Congested Districts Board for what they had done, and although the money had been expended somewhat extravagantly it had gone into the pockets of the people themselves.
  The real difficulty in regard to this problem was that the machinery was entirely deficient. Mr. Doran had worked mostly on the Dillon Estate which had absorbed nearly all his energies for the last three years, and the settlement of that estate had been a gigantic operation. A good deal still remained to be done on the Dillon Estate although 2,500 acres had been divided amongst the tenants. That, however, was only a very small amount, and there were still some 10,000 acres of land lying derelict on the borders of the Dillon Estate, all of which ought to be bought in order to spread out these people, and this course would increase enormously the prosperity of the country. It was impossible to bring home to the people of this country the multitudinous benefits which would flow from this policy. Although the people were poor in Mayo and Roscommon, accordingly as they gave them economic holdings the towns there would thrive and expand, and he expected to see all the towns of Connaught double in population within the next ten years. While he gave the Chief Secretary for Ireland the fullest credit for good intentions, and while he admitted that some of the clauses were a substantial advance upon the present state of the law in Ireland, this portion of the Bill was still very defective. Now that they had
  1488
  got into a non-contentious part he asked the Chief Secretary to make this a really effective clause. He wished the House to go to the root and source of all the trouble, which was the congested districts question. If they could convince these poor people that they were making an effort to elevate them it would make a great difference. If they held out some hopes to these poor people they would not be unreasonable, nor would their leaders or advisers be unreasonable so long as they were convinced that Parliament was doing the best it could to bring within their reach the means of making a living by hard work. He knew one parish in Ireland in the very centre of which there were about 1,000 acres of the richest grass land belonging to a grazier who also owned seven or eight other great ranches. He never lived upon any of them, but he used them as grass farms. What hardship would it be to say to that man "We are willing to give you all the value of your interest, but you must give up this land to enable us to carry out this great operation for the benefit of the poor people of this locality." There were numerous cases in Ireland where the grass land was right at the very door of the poor people, and the Chief Secretary ought to provide some machinery to carry out operations of the kind he had suggested. If this Bill passed into law without giving greater powers to the Congested Districts Board it might have a very bad effect upon the settlement of this problem by facilitating the passage of these grass lands into the hands of graziers. He asked the right hon. Gentleman not to close his mind against proposals to give compulsory powers, which would not inflict a single hardship upon the landlords of

  1489
  Ireland. He wished to point out that under Sub-section 3 there was a most objectionable procedure which would have the effect of considerably blocking the work. In some cases the tenants were being asked to pay as much as £100 fine in addition to their instalments. He thought that was a mistaken policy, because to ask a man to start in life upon a farm after paying £100 fine was very dangerous because they stripped him absolutely clean of his capital and put him into a holding that required a fair amount of capital to start with. In his opinion they were endangering the success of the whole system which was intended to provide homes for very poor people. They were also endangering the security of the State, because it was no use giving a man land unless they gave him a chance of using it to advantage.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he desired to take that opportunity of replying to the questions which had been put to him. The hon. Member for East Mayo had asked whether the Congested Districts Board would have the same financial facilities as the Estates Commissioners. His answer was that they would in all respects, and on probably a much greater scale, because, for the smaller part of Ireland with which they had to deal they had just as much credit at their disposal as the Estates Commissioners. They had a guarantee fund of £1,250,000 to buy untenanted land. What the hon. Member had said with regard to the Dillon Estate was true, but if the Board had had money to buy additional land in the neighbourhood they could have made a better and quicker job of it. He thought they would be able to work on
  1490
  a larger scale now and to meet the many criticisms which had been raised. As to the imposition of money fines on tenants, this Bill had been drafted to get rid of them. The very worst preliminary in starting a man on a new career was to take a fine from him.
  MR. TULLYsaid anyone who had considered the conditions of the congested districts could see that these districts were scamped by the Bill, or at all events not adequately dealt with. The Chief Secretary had spoken with apparent sincerity and with eloquence, but there was something more than generalities required. They must apply themselves to the actual working details in the congested districts. The Congested Districts Board said they were hampered by the restrictions under which they worked. They said they could not force people to take the lands. He knew there was something in that complaint, because he was himself connected with a Board which erected sixty houses, but they could not get the people to leave the slum districts to take these houses. That was a serious difficulty, and he thought there should be something in the nature of a dictatorship in such cases, to compel people to leave their miserable holdings and to force them to take other lands. It was a curious fact that the statistics of migration showed that it was not from the congested districts that migration went on at the greatest rate. It was from richer districts in Ireland that migration took place. When they found that condition of things they should be careful as to putting restrictions in the clause which would prevent the people in the congested districts from being adequately dealt with. If the Congested.

  1491
  Districts Board had power by which they could compel people to migrate it would be a very useful thing. He thought the Amendment now before the Committee, instead of effecting the object they all desired, might have an opposite effect. It provided that these lands were to be sold in two years. He should like them to be sold in two months. There were in the Bill inducements to the landlords to sell. The landlords, in his opinion, were a worthless class who should not get any inducements. Why should they not give inducements to the people in the congested districts to migrate? If they could not have compulsion let them have inducements. There should be no fine charged on these poor people, and he hoped the policy of the Congested Districts Board in asking for a fine would be abandoned. In his opinion the congested districts were boycotted by this Bill, and the clauses dealing with them were not worth the paper they were printed on. Owing to transactions which had recently taken place the price of land had become inflated in Ireland, and the landlords had such an exaggerated idea of the value of their land that they would never sell at a price which would give a reasonable prospect that migration and resettlement could be carried on. So long as they had that difficulty to deal with there would be a very serious obstacle to encounter in approaching this problem. He held that the work hitherto had been clogged by the efforts of officials whose desire seemed to be to prolong it in their own interest. It was intolerable that these lands should be five or six years in the hands of the Congested Districts Board and that nothing should be done to distribute them among the people. He was anxious that these clauses should
  1492
  be made compulsory, for he believed that until that was done there would be nothing of a practical nature done for the relief of the congested districts.
  *SIR JOHN COLOMBthought everybody must wish success to the Chief Secretary in his efforts on the line which he had indicated to-night in his speech. He would only say this with respect to the suggestions of this, that, and the other, with the view of producing a total change in the West of Ireland in a short time, that he knew no case where work of this kind had been accomplished rapidly. He did not know a case on record where, by the action of the State, colonisation had been a complete success, and that was a warning to those who wished to see this matter really settled. It was better to do a little well than to attempt to do too much and produce failure. It was impossible to effect a great revolution in a short time. Hon. Members from Ireland often said that the wrongs of that country had sprung from the mis-government of seven centuries. Do not let them expect to undo the work of seven centuries in seven weeks, or seven months, or even seven years.
  MR. O'KELLY:said the Chief Secretary would agree with him that it was absolutely impossible for people to eke out an existence on certain estates in the congested districts. He referred to what had occurred in the case of the O'Ryan and Digby Estate where there was a desert of heather but no tillage land of any kind, and said he did not understand how the Congested Districts Board had been lured into purchasing that estate. He complained that the work of the Board was intolerably

  1493
  slow. It pleased no one and it dissatisfied everyone, and unless the right hon. Gentleman made a change in the methods of working they could never hope to see that Board solve the problem of congestion. He urged that the County Councils in Connaught ought to have a representation on that Board in the same way as on the Agricultural Board. The Congested Districts Board were as much in need of local advice and guidance as the other Board. He understood there were to be two vacancies on the Board, and he sincerely hoped that the Chief Secretary would fill these vacancies with men who were acquainted with the problem of congestion. He was not using exaggerated language when he said that it was a thorough scandal that land should be kept in the hands of the Congested Districts Board instead of being made available with the greatest possible speed for the poor people who required it. By satisfying Connaught the Government would have one of the best guarantees for public peace in Ireland, but if they had a dissatisfied and disaffected Connaught, they would find that this Bill, instead of producing peace, would leave behind it a record of disappointed hopes.
  MR. O'DOWDsupported the Amendment. He urged that the question of the congested districts must be seriously considered by the House of Commons—
  And, it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  METROPOLITAN STREETS BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed for this day.

  NAVAL WORKS [CONSOLIDATED FUND].
  Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to make further provision for the construction of works in the United Kingdom and elsewhere for the purposes of the Royal Navy, and to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums, not exceeding £7,996,000, as may be required for those purposes, and to make provision for raising, in the manner provided by Section 5 of the Naval Works Act, 1895, the sums so issued by terminable annuities for a period not exceeding thirty years from the date of the borrowing."
  Resolution agreed to. Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Pretyman, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Arnold-Forster.

  NAVAL WORKS BILL.
  "To make further provision for the construction of works in the United Kingdom and elsewhere for the purposes of the Royal Navy," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 266.]
  PUBLIC OFFICES (DUBLIN) (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
  Considered in Committee; Committee report Progress; to sit again this day.

  ACCESS TO THE HOUSE.
  On the Motion for the Adjournment of the House,
  COLONEL LOCKWOODcalled attention to the Sessional Order requiring the police of the Metropolis to take care that during the session of Parliament a passage through the streets be kept free and open, and no obstruction be permitted that would hinder their passage to the House. At three o'clock that

  1495
  afternoon he was stopped at the bottom of Berkeley Street, although he explained that he was a Member of Parliament. He then tried other streets, including Bond Street and Burlington Street, by direction of constables. Eventually he got out of his cab and walked to the top of St. James's Street, where he met with every assistance from the police, and eventually arrived at the House. He would be the last man in the world to attempt to add to the troubles of the police when they had special difficulties to cope with. All he asked was that it should be laid down for the information of Members how and by what means they were to be able to come down to the House to perform their duties if they left their homes at such time as they thought would not cause unnecessary inconvience to the police.
  MR. REGINALD LUCASsaid he was precisely in the same predicament as his hon. friend, but reached the House by making a detour. He thought that on a special occasion like that it was hardly necessary to press this matter strictly. By taking a little extra trouble hon. Members might help the police and avoid adding to the duties which devolved upon them.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he had been stopped by the police at Hyde Park corner, but on stating he was a Member he was allowed to pass.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,)said the police were most anxious to carry out the Sessional Order, and Members would admit that they usually met with the greatest courtesy and assistance from the force. It was a question how far the Sessional Order extended. He had always thought it referred to the
  1496
  neighbourhood of the House, and it certainly could not apply all over London, or to places where Members were not known. He hoped his hon. and gallant friend would not think it necessary to press the matter further. He, when he came down to the House, was allowed to pass, and having to repass from the House to meet M. Loubet he was enabled to do so with very little delay Some consideration must be shown to the police on such an occasion when men from other divisions were on duty to whom Members were not known.
  MR. FLAVINsaid he always received the greatest courtesy from the Metropolitan police.
  COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid he had no desire to press anything; he simply mentioned the difficulty he had met with, and asked how he was to get to the House of Commons on such an occasion.
  *MR. SPEAKERsaid it was quite clear that the Sessional Order ought to be carried out by the police, and that the access of Members to the House should be secured, and he knew from previous communications with the heads of the police that they were thoroughly aware of their duty and desirous of carrying it out. Probably the difficulty had arisen from men being drafted to duty near the House from other divisions, and therefore not discharging their duty in this particular with the intelligence that characterised the police usually on duty near the House. Every care was taken that the Standing Order should be duly enforced, and the Serjeant-at-Arms would again communicate with the police on the subject. He hoped it would not be considered necessary to pursue the matter any further.
  Adjourned at seventeen minutes after Twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5); Erith Tramways and Improvement.
Also the Certificate that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill: Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Walker and Wallsend Union Gas Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne Electric Supply Bill. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported, with Amendments.
Metropolitan District Railway (Various Powers) Bill. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Wolverhampton and Cannock Chase Railway (Extension of Time) Bill Reported from the Select Committee, without Amendment.
Leigh Corporation Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
British Gas Light Company (Norwich) Bill [H.L.]. Commons' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Beckenham Urban District Council Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Mayo be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Ribblesdale; and that the Duke of
1322
Bedford, a Member of the Select Committee, be appointed Chairman of the said Committee; read, and agreed to.
Scottish Ontario and Manitoba Land Company Bill [H.L.]; Pentillie Estate Bill [H.L.]; South Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Bill [H.L.]; Bury and District Joint Water Board Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
West Cumberland Electric Tramways Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Strabane and Letterkenny Railway Bill. Gateshead Corporation Bill. Sheffield Corporation Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1, and referred to the Examiners.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Brought from the Commons.
Neath, Pontardawe, and Brynaman Railway Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Romford and District Tramways Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Military Lands Provisional Orders Bill. Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London) Bill [H.L.] Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.
Hamilton Burgh Provisional Order Confirmation Bill. Broughty Ferry Gas Provisional Order Confirmation Bill. House in Committee (according to Order): Bills reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a to-morrow.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (East Ham, &c.) Bill [H.L.] Commons Amendment considered (according to Older), and agreed to.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. (No. 155.) Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. (No. 156.) Read 1a, to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

PETITION.
  SUPPLY OF ELECTRICITY BILL [H.L.]
  Petition against; of Westminster Corporation; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Regulations for the instruction and training of pupil teachers and students in training colleges.
  Regulations for secondary schools (from 1st August, 1903, to 31st July, 1904).
  Regulations for evening schools, technical institutions, and schools of art and art classes (from 1st August, 1903, to 31st July, 1904).

  TRADE REPORTS—(ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 3016. France (Bordeaux).
  No. 3017. Venezuela.
  No. 3018. Italy (Genoa).
  No. 3019. China (Ningpo).

  TRADE REPORTS (MISCELLANEOUS SERIES).
  No. 593. Russia (Tea Industry of the Caucasus).
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION BOARD (IRELAND).
  Annual Report, for the year 1902. Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Minutes of the Board of Education, dated 6th July, 1903, withdrawing Article 102 and Articles 111 to 129, inclusive, of the Provisional Code of 1903.
  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated 22nd June, 1903, granting a retired allowance to Mr. M. J. O'Callaghan, late clerk of the second division in the Department of Public Works, Ireland, under Section 2 of the Superannuation Act.
  METROPOLITAN WATER STOCK REGULATIONS, 1903.
  Order made by the Local Government Board prescribing regulations with respect to the creation, issue, transfer, dealing with, and redemption of any Metropolitan Water Stock which the Metropolitan Water Board create under the Metropolis Water Act, 1902.

  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES.
  Regulation, dated 1st July, 1900, made by the Treasury under the Friendly Societies Act, 1896.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  NEWCASTLE CHAPTER (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

  THE NATIONAL STANDARD OF PHYSICAL HEALTH.
  *THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, I rise to draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the Report of the Royal Commission on Physical Training in Scotland, and to the Report of the Inspector-General of Recruiting for 1902, in which he states that
  "the one subject, which causes anxiety in the future as regards recruiting, is the gradual deterioration of the physique of the working classes from winch the bulk of the recruits must always be drawn";
  and to ask His Majesty's Government whether they would be prepared to issue a Royal Commission or a Committee of Inquiry with a view of ascertaining whether the poorer populations in our large towns are exposed to conditions which, if continued, must inevitably contribute to a low national standard of physical health and strength, seeing that if such be the case it would constitute a grave national peril. The Report of the Royal Commission on Physical Training

  1325
  in Scotland, over which my noble friend the Earl of Mansfield presided, and to whom and his colleagues we owe a deep debt of gratitude for bringing before the public in so concise and lucid a manner the present physical conditions of the people of that country, unanimously reported that—
  "there exists in Scotland an undeniable degeneration of individuals of the classes where fond and environment are defective, which calls for attention and amelioration in obvious ways, one of which is a well regulated system of physical training."
  Do these words apply only to Scotland, or are they applicable to the rest of the United Kingdom? This is the question I desire His Majesty's Government to take into their most serious consideration. The subject to which I am anxious to draw the attention of the Government and of your Lordships' House is to my mind one of the most important of our social problems. It is a question of self-preservation. If my contention that a very large proportion of the population in our large cities are physically weak, be true, and that that degenerate portion is rapidly on the increase, then I think there can be no question about the urgent importance of the subject and the need of Government action. That wise statesman Lord Beaconsfield once said—
  "The public health is the foundation on which repose the happiness of the people and the power of a country. The care of the public health is the first duty of a Statesman."
  I am fully aware that the most important and the most interesting subject can be made unbearably dull by being over-weighted with statistics. I shall, therefore, do my best to spare your Lordships unnecessary figures; but, at the same time, I do not think it is possible for a subject of this character to be adequately and seriously discussed without occasional reference to statistics. I hope, therefore, your Lordships will bear with me, remembering the difficulty that there is in making clear such a subject without quoting figures.
  In order that there may be no misapprehension in the minds of your Lordships in regard to the nature of the social problem to which I have called the attention of the Government and of this House, I should like to make it perfectly clear that I do not contend that physical
  1326
  deterioration is taking place among all classes in this country, nor, indeed, that any class is actually deteriorating, for the exact reverse is certainly the case in regard to some sections of society. Indeed, there can be no doubt that the physical condition of the upper and middle classes has on the whole improved. Evidence is doubtful as to whether the artisan and well-to-do labouring classes have improved or not; they probably have remained more or less stationary. Nor do I even assert that degeneration has taken place amongst the poorer classes in either town or country. What I desire to emphasise is that even should it be proved that the average individual member of a poor town population is physically the equal, or even slightly the superior, of his poor town predecessor, the overwhelming increase which has taken place in recent years in the numbers of poor men and women who live in towns has completely altered the physical condition of England, and turned a negligible national defect into one of the most serious gravity. There can be no doubt that the poor of to-day are born and live under much better conditions than the poor of a century, or even of half a century ago, and that the death-rate, both in town and country, has diminished, and it is therefore possible, and even probable, that the general average health and strength of even the poorest and most neglected in the towns are greater than those formerly enjoyed by a class similarly miserable. But although there may be degrees of misery, and because there may be a slight diminution in the physical weakness of these wretched classes, it is no reason why the national conscience should be satisfied, if it can be shown that physical weakness in these classes is still excessive, is far greater than that to be found amongst the more well-to-do, and can be avoided, especially when it can be shown that people residing in urban districts already number nearly four-fifths of the population and are rapidly increasing, whilst the country bred, which in the past recruited the weakened blood of the cities, are either stationary in number or actually decreasing.
  In 1851 the urban population of England and Wales numbered only 8,990,809 out of a total population of 17,927,609, or just 50 per cent.; according to the

  1327
  last census the urban districts are now inhabited by more than 25,000,000 souls out of 32,527,843, or 77 per cent. of the total population. Scotland shows a very similar state of things. There 3,367,280, or 75.3 per cent. of the population, live in urban districts. These figures mean that the population of Great Britain is largely town bred, and that for one man who lives in the country there are more than three who reside in the town. For purposes of comparison, and to show of how much greater importance this subject is to us than to neighbouring countries, I may state that whereas the urban inhabitants of Great Britain are 77 per cent., and those of Scotland 75·3 per cent., the town inhabitants of Germany are only 36 per cent., and those of France only 25 per cent. of their entire populations. Dwellers in cities need not necessarily be of inferior physique. I have no doubt I shall be told that some of the finest athletes come from the towns. That is so, but they come from that portion of the population who are in comparatively comfortable circumstances, who are well fed, live in healthy homes, and have leisure for outdoor exercise. The great public schools of Great Britain are filled with the healthy and sturdy sons of the professional classes living largely in towns, but then, as a rule, their parents are healthy, and they come of a healthy stock. The sons of the upper and middle classes, educated at the great seminaries, far from degenerating, have increased in stature and weight above the limits attained by their predecessors. From statistics taken it can be shown that in 1901 the average Marlburian boy of thirteen years of age was 5½ lbs. heavier and 2 inches taller than his predecessor of 1874, and that the Rugby boy of thirteen in 1901 was 6 lbs. heavier and 2½ inches taller than his predecessor of 1879.
  But if we consider the condition of the less favoured classes, we are confronted with an entirely different set of figures. Mr. Charles Roberts, in a Report to the Royal Commission on Secondary Education, says that—
  "The more intelligent classes are taller and heavier at corresponding ages than the less intelligent, the more favoured classes than the less favoured;"
  and he gives the following figures in support of his statement. He states that
  1328
  the public school boy, between eleven and twelve years of age, averages 55 inches in stature, and 78·7 lbs in weight; the elementary school child 52·6 inches in height, and 67·8 lbs. in weight; the factory child 51·6 inches in height, and 67·41lbs in weight; and those at Industrial and Reformatory Schools, whom Mr. Roberts, I think inaccurately, describes as representing the slum population, 50·8 inches in height, and 64·63lbs in weight. It must be remembered that the Industrial and Reformatory Schools, though they recruit their inmates largely from the slums of cities, do not in their statistics actually represent the physical conditions of the children of the slums, for, as the Royal Commission on Physical Training in Scotland have pointed out, these boys and girls are well fed, live in healthy dwellings, amid good sanitary surroundings, and under a healthy discipline, which rapidly improves their physique and morale, so that, on leaving the school, 80 per cent. turn out good and useful citizens. Therefore, my contention is that Mr. Roberts's figures, although they are bad enough in themselves, do not represent the real state of affairs, and that, if we could obtain accurate anthropometric measurements of the children inhabiting city slums, we should possibly find that the figures were much lower than those given by Mr. Roberts. These figures are corroborated by Dr. Hunt, medical officer of the School Board of Halifax, who examined fifty boys, between the ages of ten and eleven, attending the schools, for weight, and 450 for height. These boys came from three categories of schools—country, suburban, and central, and the figures he gives show that the upper and middle class boy averages about 3 inches more in height, and 11 pounds more in weight than the average elementary school boy; and 4 inches in height, and 14 pounds, or one stone, more in weight, than the slum or factory boy.
  The Royal Commission on Physical Training in Scotland found that in Edinburgh nearly 30 per cent. of the elementary school children were badly nourished, 19·17 per cent. were in poor health, 12·33 per cent. were mentally dull, and 78 per cent. were more or less physically weak and suffering from some kind of disease. And the gentlemen who carried out these investigations for the noble Earl and his

  1329
  colleagues stated that the percentage of defective children would be larger if slight affections of throat and ear were included. Out of 30,000 children in Edinburgh, Dr. Leslie Mackenzie calculated that some 50 per cent.—that is, a total of 15,000 children—were suffering from the throat, and some 40 per cent., or 12,000, from slight affections of the ear, making a total of 27,000 children out of 30,000 suffering from ear and throat. In the course of his examination he found that 259 male children out of 299 and 294 females out of 298 were suffering from either affections of the ear or throat. These figures are the more alarming as one would imagine that Edinburgh, with its magnificent situation, in close proximity to its splendid Queen's Park and picturesque Arthur's Seat, would produce healthier children than, say, the enormous industrial city of Glasgow. If the children of Edinburgh are in this lamentable condition, what must be the condition of those of Glasgow and of some of the more crowded cities of England? In Liverpool we know that its medical officer has reported that out of 4,574 children there is an infantile mortality of 2,229—or about 50 per cent. This is less than the average mortality amongst working-class children, which is 55 per cent. as against 18 per cent. in the upper classes. One child in every six dies in the British Isles in its first year, and, of course, many more if we consider only children of the working classes. If Edinburgh is as bad as has been stated, what must be the condition of the children of Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Bradford, Bristol—I could go through an endless list of manufacturing towns into the slums of which the sun scarcely ever penetrates, and where the air is polluted with vicious vapours and impregnated with black soot.
  To combat these evils Lord Mansfield and his colleagues acknowledge that many reforms are needed. In his "Essays on Education" Herbert Spencer said—
  "To be a good animal is the first requisite to success in life, and to be a nation of good animals is the first condition to national prosperity."
  To be good animals children must have strong and healthy parents, good and ample food, plenty of fresh air and exercise, be properly housed, and lead
  1330
  regular disciplined lives. It is only necessary to mention these requisites for health in order to see at once how impossible it is that a race of healthy and strong children can, under present conditions, be reared in the poorer parts of our large cities. Mr. John Burns, M.P., has very truly said that—
  "The conditions essential to manhood begin before the baby is born—a healthy home, reasonable labour, temperate living on the part of the father and mother, these are the indispensable preliminaries to healthy life in children."
  Again, this admirable representative of all that is best amongst the artisan class—an exemplification in his own person of mental combined with physical vigour—has said that if our future working class are to be healthy—
  "The fathers must drink less beer and the mother's less tea."
  I would add that the mothers of the future must be taught knowledge necessary to the proper nurture of children. At present there are working-class mothers—I trust not many—who are under the impression that babies flourish on gin, pork, bacon, and cabbage; and if they should cry and show physical discomfort from the effects of this diet, that all can be set right by a dose of some much advertised soothing syrup.
  Without proper feeding we cannot have a sturdy nation. It must be seen that pure, fresh milk be brought within the reach of the poor both in town and country, and this is of even more importance in the country than in the town, for it is a sad fact that in many parts of the rural districts it is almost impossible for the labouring classes to obtain fresh milk. The future mothers must be taught not only that milk is the proper food for babes, but that the greatest care must be taken to see that the milk is sweet, for a large proportion of infantile mortality is due to decomposing or septic milk. The death-rate among breast-fed children is only about one-thirtieth of that among those who are fed otherwise. A most laudable effort, and one which should be largely followed, has been made by the Battersea Borough Council in order to enable mothers to obtain pure, fresh milk at a reasonable charge. The Council has started a milk depôt for mothers. The milk is humanised and sterilised, and at this moment some 300

  1331
  babes are being daily fed at a charge of 1s. 9d. a week for those from six to eight months, and at 2s. for older babies A baby fund has also been started to assist the poorer mothers, and arrangements have been made with the local Poor Law Guardians in the case of absolute paupers. As long ago as 1870, when I was in the diplomatic service, there existed in Berlin a model dairy which brought pure milk to the very doors of the poor by means of locked perambulating milk and cream carts, which passed at regular hours through the poorer quarters of the town and stopped at fixed points. The people could themselves fill their jugs from taps in the vehicle, over which was clearly painted the kind of milk and price. Owing to the cans being locked it was quite impossible for anyone to tamper with the supply. I cannot help thinking that something of that sort might be done nearer home.
  I am quite prepared to be met with the statement that the average city child is both taller and heavier than the city child was, say, when her late Majesty Queen Victoria came to the Throne. This may very possibly be true, but such a statement, if proved, would not weaken my argument. Our knowledge of the laws of health and of sanitation has vastly improved; our factory laws have been passed since those days; we have established an universal and compulsory system of education; we have passed special laws for the protection of children, and public opinion is much more alive to their interests than it was in 1837. It would, then, be indeed sad if we could not point to some physical improvement in the case of city children of the poorer classes, even though it has been estimated, with what truth I know not, that 3,250,000 persons in the British Isles live in overcrowded dwellings, with an average of three persons in each room. I desire to point out, that whereas city children in 1837 constituted a comparatively insignificant portion of the infantile population of the country, they now form an overwhelming majority, and, as such, must in the future materially influence the national physical average, and that annually this urban and weaker element is growing more and more numerous to the serious detriment of the nation. I,
  1332
  for one, shall never be satisfied as long as such a material difference can be shown between the physical condition of the children of the richer and of the poorer classes. I believe that science and municipal effort, supported by a sensitive public conscience and the spread of knowledge of the laws of health and of sanitation amongst the future mothers of England, can to a very large extent neutralise the advantages which at present those classes enjoy who can live in the country and need not consider money in the bringing up and training of their children. Before I leave the subject of the children, I must draw attention to the fact that the population of this country is not increasing as it used to do. Lord Rosebery has remarked that it is useless to possess an Empire unless it is inhabited by an Imperial race. At this moment the population of Australia is practically stationary. What our colonies need is a continued steady stream of healthy agriculturists to develop their boundless resources. If the increase of population in Great Britain had proceeded since 1881 in the same ratio as it did previous to that period, there would in 1891 have been 2,434,000 more children in the country than there actually were. Since that period the birth and marriage rates show a still further decline. I now come to the youths and adults. Lord Selborne has been good enough to cause me to be supplied with a Return of the boys and youths medically examined from the 1st of January to the 31st of December, 1902, at the Royal Marine Recruiting Offices for the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, and he has remarked that—
  "He thinks it desirable to point out that this list by no means covers the whole number of men and boys who apply for entry into either of these services, as a very large percentage of the applicants are turned away by the recruiting sergeants for some physical deficiency, such as defective teeth without being brought before the doctors at all."
  This Return shows that, during that period, 6,169 lads offered themselves, out of which number 1,686, or 27·3 per cent., were rejected as unfit. This proportion is a little better than that which is recorded in the case of Army recruits. The General Inspector of Recruiting for the Army, in his Report for the year 1901, states that

  1333
  the percentage of rejections on grounds of physical development all over the kingdom of those who offered themselves for the Army was 29·04. But from statistics I have obtained, through the kindness of the First Lord of the Admiralty, it would appear that just under 33 per cent. of the lads who desired to enter Greenwich Hospital with a view to joining the Navy had to be rejected. This is the more extraordinary, as these lads must be sons of former seamen or marines, and, one would fancy, would consequently enjoy the advantage of, at all events, a healthy father.
  It must not be forgotten that in this case also no account is taken of those who were rejected by the recruiter's for physical defects so apparent as to be noticed on sight. None of these figures, therefore, show the numbers of those who were rejected by the sergeants as being obviously unfit, and it must always be remembered that there is a direct pecuniary inducement to a recruiting officer to bring a recruit before the doctor, so that those rejected by the recruiters must have been physically hopelessly defective. There is nothing to show how large was the number thus rejected, but report puts it at about half those who presented themselves. This may be an exaggeration, but, if true, it would mean that over 50 per cent. of the young men and lads offering themselves for the Army and Navy have to be rejected. Let us, however, leave out of consideration those rejected by the recruiting sergeants. The figures are quite large enough in all conscience, and I have no desire to exaggerate the matter. I do not, however, believe that there would be much, if any, exaggeration in saying that some 50 per cent. of those who offer themselves for the Army and Navy are rejected between recruiting officers and medical men, and subsequent dismissals for inferior physique. I have been shown a statement in writing from an Admiralty provincial recruiting officer, in which he asserts that fully 50 per cent. of the candidates for the Navy are rejected for physical causes, and General Sir Frederick Maurice has lately informed the public that, out of five men who enlist, only two remain effective soldiers after two years, and that the men who slipped through the officers tests, and
  1334
  afterwards had to be turned out of the Army, were—
  "Miserable, anæmic specimens of humanity, fit to do no proper man's work in any position of life."
  Let us leave these extra rejections out of consideration. It will then be seen that considerably more than one-fourth of those who offer themselves from both town and country for the Army and Navy are rejected for physical defects. That more than a fourth of the young men and lads who desire to serve their country in Army or Navy should be unfit to do so, is surely a very serious matter. What makes it still more serious is that it is reported for 1901 that the proportion of men rejected was highest in the class headed "labourers, servants, husbandmen, etc.," the rejections amongst labourers being 18·37 per 1,000. In 1902, owing probably to the great efforts made to obtain recruits during the war, the rejections for the Army were nearly 50 per cent. in excess of the figures for the previous year. The actual figures were: 100,771 recruits offered themselves, and 47,916, or nearly 50,000, were rejected. In Germany, town life exercises a similarly harmful influence on national physique, for whereas 80 per cent. of the recruits from the country are found to be physically fit for military service, only 38 per cent. of those coming from Berlin can take their places in the ranks, and it must be remembered that these figures represent the average physical condition of the entire young male population of Berlin, and not only those coming from the poorer districts, as is the case in dealing with town recruits in the British Isles.
  The Royal Commission on Physical Training in Scotland showed that the condition of life under which the poor lived in Edinburgh was detrimental to health and strength, but in considering the rejections for the Navy from this town we find in 1902 only 23·6 per cent. were rejected, whilst 24·9 were rejected from Bristol, 30·3 from Exeter, and 35·9 from London, so that Edinburgh is not so bad as some towns in England. In Manchester, from figures supplied by Colonel Leathern, the chief recruiting officer, it appears that in 1899, during the early part of the Boer War, some 11,000 men offered their services to the Army; of

  1335
  these only 3,000 could be accepted, and eventually it was found that out of these 3,000 only 1,072 were fit for service in the Regular Army, 2,107 being relegated to the Militia. So that in round numbers, out of 11,000 men from Manchester, 8,000 were rejected, whilst only 1,000 were found fit to fight the battles of their country. These figures were not peculiar to the year 1899, for in 1900, out of 12,235 who offered to enlist in Manchester, 8,205 were rejected, and in 1901, out of 11,896 who came forward, 8,820 were found physically incapable of military service. It may be said that these figures relate to men brought up in the slums and who are out of employment owing to physical incapacity to do any hard work. This probably is more or less true, but it only strengthens the force of my argument for inquiring into the condition of life of the poorer populations in our large cities. But that physical weakness is not confined only to the very poor in our towns is shown by the recent statement publicly made by the colonel of the Birmingham Volunteers, who complained that he had to reject some 32 per cent. of the young men who applied to him for admission into his battalion, and that on one occasion he had to reject eleven out of thirty-one recruits. Now, these men must have been men of a superior social position to the ordinary Army recruit, and should not have been subject to the influences hurtful to health entailed by extreme poverty.
  Mr. Cantlie, F.R.C.S., after making some most exhaustive inquiries, has come to the conclusion that pure-bred Londoners cannot exist beyond the third generation, showing that without the infusion of country blood the populations in our large cities would, under present conditions, inevitably die out. Mr. Cantlie has also made inquiries in the country, and found that rickets is one of the commonest ailments in country districts. He ascribes this to want of food, insufficient food, or the wrong food. It is probably owing to want of milk, which in some parts of the country it is almost impossible for the poor to obtain, as milk farmers are under contract to send their entire supply to the large centres of population, and cannot, therefore, sell it locally. This
  1336
  is a very serious grievance, and one which should be remedied. There are other causes, however, which lead to a low physical condition amongst the people. The Royal Commission on Physical Training in Scotland has pointed out that many reforms are needed in order to ensure a physically healthy population, and that all these reforms must proceed pari passu, or more harm than good may be done; for instance, they have shown how harmful physical exercises can prove in the case of underfed and sickly children, though the same exercises are indispensable to proper development, and most beneficial when carried out under medical supervision.
  Briefly stated, the principal requisites in the production of a physically capable population are: first, healthy parents; secondly, sanitary homes; thirdly, good, abundant and well-cooked food, including a cheap supply of fresh milk; fourthly, pure air and water; fifthly, facilities for exercise and healthy recreation; sixthly, a good educational system, which shall combine physical with mental and moral training, and shall instruct the young, especially the girls, in the elements of hygiene, dietetics, and the care of infants and home sanitation, and shall bring them up under good and healthy moral surroundings. It is only necessary to mention the above, which are but a few of the indispensable requisites to the production of a healthy population, in order to show how much remains to be done before we can hope to attain, not perfection, but even a moderately healthy standard of national life. If this moderate standard is to be reached, it will not be sufficient for one Department of Government to move in the right direction. The subject, when investigation has pointed out the proper course to be pursued, must be made a national one, and Government and people combined, must throw their entire energies into the matter, and insist on a general advance along the lines of national health and strength, so that future generations may be able fearlessly to face and bear the burden which fierce foreign competition and the ever increasing responsibilities of extending Empire

  1337
  have placed, and will place, on the shoulders of the subjects of King Edward. I am no pessimist. I firmly believe in the capabilities and energy of the Anglo-Saxon, and have confidence that, with the ancient pluck of their race, the future of the Empire will be made by its sons and daughters even more glorious than its memorable past, if only we, the fathers of the rising generation, do not neglect our duties, but give our sons and our grandsons a chance to equip themselves properly for the contest, and see that, in founding the mightiest Empire the world has ever known, we do not, by our indifference and carelessness, hinder nature in her efforts to people that Empire with an Imperial race.
  *THE LORD BISHOP OF RIPON: My Lords, I make no apology for rising in support of the inquiry which the noble Earl has asked for. I am sure that every man who desires to see a great and efficient race raised in these islands and in the Greater Britain beyond the seas will feel that it never can be unwise to investigate the conditions of life, and to see how far they contribute to the development of a fine and noble race. I am not here for one moment, therefore, to hold a brief on behalf of any pessimistic attitude with regard to the population or its physical deterioration, but I am here to try and show that there are very good grounds for asking for a searching and careful inquiry. I do not wish to approach this matter in a spirit of dread, for there are so many matters which appear incontrovertibly to prove that over a large period of years a distinct advance has been made, and this it would be neither wise nor politic to overlook. In the first instance, there has been an improvement with regard to the stature and vigour of the population of our country. As compared with a hundred years ago our population has trebled, and nearly quadrupled—from 8,900,000 to 32,500,000. As a result of investigation made by the British Association it has been ascertained that the stature of the race has risen within the last generation or two from 5 feet 7½ inches to 5 feet 8¼ inches, and I am sure we are all acquainted With the commonplace argument that we have only to visit the Tower of London and attempt to put on
  1338
  the armour of our ancestors to ascertain how far far the physique of the race has developed in the course of centuries. We should not look upon things from a dark point of view. Petulance and fear paint everything dark, and one can see nothing in the dark.
  I, for one, am prepared to say at the outset, that there is so much to encourage us, that we ought to face every inquiry with a wise and well-balanced judgment. Amongst such encouraging features is the increase of longevity. The child born yesterday, if it was a boy, can look forward to 4·39 years more of life than did the child of fifty years ago; and if a girl, her expectation is 6·11 years more. In other words, there is a distinct increase in the expectation of life, and to every child born to-day there is the opportunity of from four to six years longer service of its country and race. It is true that this is largely due to the advance of medical skill and sanitary science, but these have combined with the happier conditions of modern life to give the greater chance of a vigorous and healthy race. Such constitute to us abundant reasons for gratitude that our lot is cast in an age of greater physical and material advantages. But surely for that very reason we ought to look more anxiously and more carefully to ascertain whether any causes are at work which may arrest these happy and healthful conditions. The greater caution, therefore, should be exercised by us lest unobserved changes should be introduced which might deprive us of so noble an inheritance and undermine the physical vigour of our race. Whatever we send beyond the seas in the form of manufactured goods, believe me to export men and women of noble and healthy physique, who will be worthy representatives of our people on other shores, must form the most important commodity of our manufacture. Far more than gold mines and acquired territories is the manufacture of that manhood and womanhood which can go forth with strength, intelligence, and moral force to fulfil the destinies of our people.
  I am bound, therefore, to ask you to consider those great and grave questions which are being put to us by men who have studied these matters deeply and who ask that those questions may be

  1339
  answered "yes" or "no" after due and careful inquiry. Are we sending out in sufficient quantity and in sufficient quality a race which is calculated to hold this great Empire together and to fulfil what we all believe to be the duties and the destinies of our people? The answers which are given by some who have considered the matter are, that as regards numbers our population is not growing as rapidly as it should, but that the declining rate of increase is a matter of great moment. Let me ask your Lordships to notice one or two facts in this matter. First, I take the birth rate. The birth rate, which was 36·3 in 1876, had declined in 1898 to 29·4. But birth rate is, perhaps, not in itself a final test of the increase of population. Experts, therefore, have called our attention to the marriage question, and have endeavoured to arrive at some definite opinion as to the productive power of marriages in this country. Dr. Newsholme, taking a large range of married people of the age in which a family would naturally be expected, reached the conclusion that in 1,000 such marriages the children born in 1871 were equal to 292, in 1881, to 286, and in 1891 to 264. Here is a distinct fall in the out-put of the population.
  I turn to the evidence of Mr. Edward Cannan, a well recognised expert in political economics. In order not to be betrayed by a mere superficial estimate of figures, he arranged a careful system by which the births of one year could be compared with the births of twenty six years previously in order to test the relative increase. Taking the cases, of married women under forty-five years of age, he found that for 100 births twenty-six years previously, there were in 1880, 139; that is, an increase of 39 per cent. But when the same comparison was made for the year 1890, the figure was only 117. Making the comparison once more for the year 1900, the figure was only 108. Here, again, is a distinct drop in the output of population. But Mr. Cannan undertook a further calculation. He arranged a system which he called a system of "weighted marriages"—that is to say, he only selects married people of an age in which a family is probable, and he
  1340
  considers what are the normal figures of birth rate for the earlier and the later years of such marriages. Out of this careful system he arrives at the conclusion that whereas the size of the families in 1880 was 4·34, in 1890 it had fallen to 4 08, and in 1900 to 3·63; in other words, in twenty years the average size of families had fallen from four and one-third to three and two-thirds, on which he makes the ominous remark that if the same rate of decline continues for sixteen years longer the source of natural increase would be dried up. I turn now to what appears to be confirmatory I evidence of this decline in the size of families. If there is a diminution in the rate of increase that diminution will show itself in the lessened proportion of the number of children. In order to test this, I propose to take the census Returns of 1881 and the two following decades. If we divide the population into two sections, those under fifteen to represent the child section, and those above fifteen the older section, we encounter the following results—that whereas in 1881 those over fifteen numbered 16,505,848, those under fifteen numbered 9,468,591. In 1891 the population over fifteen had risen to 18,830,290, and the children—that is, those under fifteen—numbered 10,172,235. In 1901 those over fifteen were 22,000,000, and those under fifteen, 10,526,075. That is to say, whereas the children under fifteen were 36·5 per cent. of the total population in 1881, they were only 32·3 per cent. of the population in 1901. The result of this is, and each of us can work it out for himself, that there are 1,142,000 fewer children under fifteen in the country than there would have been if the proportion of 1881 had been maintained.
  Mr. Thomas Welton, F.C.A., on the basis of this shortage of children, reckoned that in the seven largest counties there were 858,500 children short of what there would have been had the old rate of increase been maintained, and if these seven counties were taken as representatives of the whole population, the shortage of children amounted to no fewer than 1,579,000. But in any case we seem to be confronted by the fact that there are more than 1,000,000 children less than there

  1341
  would have been had the old rates of increase continued, and this, I fear, is not a matter which we can feel ends with the census of 1901. One of the daily papers has shown us that the case of London in 1902 exhibits the same tendency. Then the birth rate fell to 28·5, that is, ·05 lower than it was in 1901, and this means that there are 2,309 children fewer in London than there would have been if the average of the previous ten years had been maintained. Now it may be said that a diminished population is not necessarily a bad thing: it may arise from a noble and self-denying spirit actuating its citizens, and certainly I, for one, would pay the homage of my respect to any man who, from motives of prudence and chivalry refused to draw to his side the partner of his life till he had first prepared adequately a home for her and her children. But I fear that these diminishing returns are not wholly due to creditable or self-denying causes. Experts who have looked at the matter have come to this conclusion also. Professor Marshall tells us—
  "In France for a long time, recently in America, and to a less extent in England, there has been a tendency for the abler and more intelligent part of the working-class population to avoid having large families, and this is a source of great danger."
  Dr. J. S. Billings attributes in the same way the main cause of the declining rate of increase to the deliberate and voluntary avoidance of child bearing on the part of a steadily increasing number of married people. Dr. Billings is speaking for the United States it is true, but the fashion of one place is becoming, I fear, the fashion of more than one place. A doctor in a northern city told me that £30 a week was paid in postal orders in the purchase of appliances for the restriction of population. But we are not without evidence of a statistical kind. Mr. Welton, whom I have before quoted, has pointed out, and he has based his statistics on married women under forty-five years of age, that whereas in the decade 1881 to 1890 the mean number of births of such marriages was 132,917, in the following decade the mean number was 132,943, an incredibly small increase; in other words, that the percentage of birth for a hundred wives of the age mentioned was in the first decade 27·2,
  1342
  and in the second decade only 25·1. And he adds the ominous conclusion—
  "It follows that we have gradually reached conditions when the ratio of births having sunk from 28·3 to 23·6, the natural births are reduced by artificial means to the extent of 26,000 a year, or 500 a week."
  He continues these calculations outside London and reaches similar conclusions. There is, therefore, from every point of view, ground for inquiry as to whether causes are not at work which tend in an unnatural way to weaken the vigour, the force, and the numbers of the growing population of the country.
  But we sometimes console ourselves that the deficiencies of the mother country are compensated by the vigour and prolific character of the colonies. I am afraid that here, too, we must read the story of a declining rate of increase in the population. Take the case of Canada. Canada increased in the decade, 1871 to 1880, by 839,000. In the following decade her increase was 508,000, and in the last decade, 1891 to 1900, it was 506,000. It has been pointed out by Mr. Cannan, that Scotland, which has a population 800,000 less than that of Canada, yet increased by natural means 500,000 within the last decade. What can we say when the increase of Canada, with its larger population, only exceeds that of Scotland by 6,000? I turn to Australia, and I meet the same story of diminishing births. The births in 1891 were 126,000; they had fallen in 1899 to 114,000. And lastly, when I group together the Colonies of Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, and compare their population to-day with their population of thirty years ago, I find in all cases a tendency to a diminished birth rate. It has been calculated by Mr. J. A. Baines, C.S.I., that the percentage of children under five years of age is normally 12·70 of the whole population. Let us take this figure and test the condition of the colonies I have named. In 1871 the number of children in these colonies under five years of age was 16·5 of their whole population. In 1901 the number of children under five years of age was represented by 11·66, that is to say, while in 1871 the children under five were 4 per cent. above the normal they are now 1 per cent. under the normal figure. It is true that we have an Empire of great and extensive colonies; it is true that the spaces of the earth are

  1343
  given to us; but of what service are these unless a great, numerous, and vigorous population is ready to fill them, or how can we, with diminishing numbers, speak with our enemies in the gate? Lord Rosebery rightly said—
  "An Empire is but little use without an Imperial race."
  I turn now to the second allegation, namely, that there are signs of a deterioration in physique amongst our population. It is not my purpose to commit myself to these figures. My only object is to prove that there are adequate grounds for inquiry. But when I look at the arguments which are adduced, I first encounter what I may describe as some birth facts. There has been an increase in infant mortality in the decade from 1871 to 1880 of 149 per thousand; in the next decade it had risen to 160·59 per thousand; and in the last decade to 173·45 per thousand. Within the last thirty years births with congenital defects have risen from 1·85 to 4·08. Perhaps still more striking is the fact that in the last fifty years we are told that premature births have risen 300 per cent. But from these birth facts we may turn to those results which are arrived at by inspection and investigation. And here let me first speak of Army Returns. I am quite ready to admit that Army Returns ought not to be regarded as final or sufficient evidence of the state of the whole population. In the nature of the case they are only partial, but this is a very different thing from saying that they have no value at all. They certainly represent samples of some classes of the population. They are, in one sense, a test of the condition of the rural population. For let me remind your Lordships that in 1901, out of 76,750 men inspected, 49,138 are classed as labourers, servants, and husbandmen—that is, I take it, they are representatives of the rural population. But, out of these, 15,095—that is, 30·7 per cent.—were rejected. This has its significance, and while, of course, not to be taken as evidence of a deterioration throughout the whole population, is surely sufficient to constitute evidence which calls for inquiry.
  I do not propose to weary you with the more particular results which come from the Army Returns, but I may
  1344
  remind your Lordships that whereas in 1845 the standard height for admission to the Army was 5 feet 6 inches, in 1883 it was dropped to 5 feet 3 inches, and in 1900 to 5 feet, and that of the men in 1901 no fewer than 593·4 per thousand were under the old standard height of 5 feet 6 inches. The chest measurement, again, was a 34 inch standard up to 1883, and in 1901. I find that 511·8 per thousand were under this measurement. In the matter of weight 8 stone 8 lbs. is not a great weight, but whereas in 1871 159·4 per thousand were under this weight, in 1898 269 per thousand were under it, and in 1901 325 per thousand. As a general result the War Office Report tells us that 12·30 per thousand represents the increase of rejection in 1901, and amongst those offering themselves from England and Wales the ratio rejected per thousand was 30 per cent., being 299·77 per thousand.
  The opinions of military experts speak pretty freely of the apprehension which those interested in military matters feel regarding the material from which the Army is drawn. But we have not only military statistics to proceed upon. We have the results of the Scottish Commission, and here we have the startling statement that the children in the schools very often suffer from unrecognised ailments. Thus, in the schools of Edinburgh no fewer than 700 children were found suffering from phthisis, 1,300 from heart complaints, and 15,000 from lesser ailments. Every one of these children suffering from an unrecognised ailment might be protected and developed into a more healthy child by a little care, thought, and medical inspection. I must pass by the statements which have already been put before your Lordships by Lord Meath, but it is enough for us to remember that in the evidence which is brought before us the question of race plays but a small part. The enfeebled condition of the children both in height and weight is, as far as evidence goes, rather a result of conditions than of pedigree. You have heard how the boys in our public schools are taller and heavier than those in factories and industrial schools. Mr. Hall, in Leeds, arrived at similar results, for he showed us that while the Jewish children of twelve years of age measured 57½ in.

  1345
  and weighed 85 lbs., and the Gentile children in good localities measured 57 ins. and weighed 77 lbs., the Gentile children in the poorer localities measured only 50½ ins. and weighed only 67½ lbs. I submit therefore that there is evidence which warrants our inquiring into the physical condition of the population.
  One more fact needs to be noticed, because it has an important bearing upon the public welfare. The rural districts, it will be admitted, are the reservoirs of our national strength. We are no longer a nation in which the rural districts are as populous as they were. In 1870 the urban population was 15,697,000, and the rural population 15,787,000; that is to say, the urban and the rural populations were equally balanced. Fifty per cent. of the people were then in the country districts. To-day this has been reversed, and only 23 per cent. of the population can be reckoned as rural; 77 are urban. What becomes of the population crowded into the towns? The influence of the town is to burn up the population in numbers and in vigour. You have heard from Lord Meath Dr. Cantlie's evidence that it is difficult to find the fourth generation of a Londoner. Professor Marshall tells us the same. Only a very small proportion, he says, of those artisans to whom London owes its pre-eminence as a centre of highly skilled work come from parents who were born there, and there are scarcely any whose grandparents were born there. In other words, not merely do the conditions of the town impair the physical vigour, but that inestimable quality of energy is weakened amongst the urban population. Lowered vitality, less energy, are the inevitable results of unfortunate town conditions.
  Our aim, therefore, should be, seeing that the country, as the natural reservoir of strength and energy, is being depleted, to pay as much heed as we can to the conditions of town life, to make our town conditions approximate as far as possible to country ones, and, I might venture to say, our country conditions to approximate as much as possible to our town conditions. By giving health to the towns and providing recreation and attraction in our country
  1346
  districts we may do much to conserve the general vigour of the population. My object in asking for this inquiry is not from any belief that we can do very much by distinct legislation, but that by such inquiry we may be enabled to rouse public attention and public spirit in these important matters. We are tempted to ask whether a change has not come over the moral ideals of the people. Is it true that as a generation we love pleasure more and responsibility less? Have we formed different ideas of family life? Is the child that was once a welcome addition to the home circle now regarded as a burden? If this should be the case we might well despair of the commonwealth. But I am persuaded that it is possible for us to reinvigorate our moral ideals by an improved public opinion. Then better and nobler days are before us; then, when duty and responsibility, rather than pleasure and comfort, are the guides of our conduct, we shall bring back that time when the home was the unit of the nation, and the sanctity, happiness, and vigour of the home were matters of careful thought and attention, and in this way we shall bring back those conditions which make for the happiness of the individual and for the welfare and prosperity of the nation.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (the Duke of DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will agree with me that the House is deeply indebted to the noble Earl and to the right rev. Prelate for the speeches with which they have brought before it this Question, than which none can be more important to the welfare of the country. I must, in the first instance, congratulate the noble Earl on the change which he has introduced into this Question since he first placed it on the Notice Paper. The latter part of his notice then ran—
  "To ask His Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take in order to arrest this physical deterioration, which varied and undoubted evidence shows to be gradually taking place among the poorer portions of the populations of the large cities of Great Britain, and which, if allowed to continue unchecked, threatens the State with grave national peril."

  1347
  In those words the noble Earl, I think, unduly assumed what he has attempted to-day to prove, that an actual deterioration is taking place in the physical condition of the people. He also assumed that it was in the power of His Majesty's Government, without further inquiry and without obtaining further advice, to take certain steps to remedy that deterioration. I think the noble Earl has been very well advised in altering the form of his Question and asking simply whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to enter into any inquiry on the subject.
  Perhaps I had better advert first, for a moment, to a Question which is not referred to in the notice on the Paper, but of which the right rev. Prelate gave me private notice—namely, as to the symptoms which he thinks exist, not of a decrease, but of a retardation of the rate of increase of the population of the country. I am sure your Lordships will not expect me to follow the extremely able, if somewhat elaborate, argument which the right rev. Prelate addressed to us on that subject. It must, I think, have been a subject of astonishment to your Lordships, as it has been to myself, that it should be possible for the right rev. Prelate to carry in his memory the mass of figures and statistics he placed before your Lordships, so far as I could see, without the assistance of a single note. If I had many days in which to consider all the figures the right rev. Prelate has placed before us, I do not know that I could feel sure of being able to arrive at any accurate conclusion on that subject. It requires a trained professional statistician to deal with statistics of that character and arrive at an accurate conclusion upon them. All I was able to do when the right rev. Prelate gave me notice that he was going to add his Question to that of the noble Earl was to consult the Local Government Board as to the opinion which they had formed upon the subject of a possible retardation of the rate of population; and this is the opinion which I have obtained from them:—
  "The Bishop of Ripon, in his letter to the Duke of Devonshire, speaks also of a retrogression or retardation of the increase of the population. This, however, is not so. At each census during the last ninety years there
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  has been a decennial increase of the population, varying from 11·6 to 18·0 per cent. At the last census, 1901, the increase was 12·2, compared with 11·7 at the preceding census. The population was over 3,500,000 more than in 1891. It is the fact that the birth-rate has declined during the last quarter of a century, but during the last five years there has been a tendency to a rise in the marriage-rate, and it remains to be seen whether this is arresting the fall in the birth-rate. There has, no doubt, been a growth of emigration from country to town, with the result that the increase of the town population has been much greater than the increase of the country population. The increase of the country population, including urban districts with less than 5,000 inhabitants, during the last decennial period was just over 3 per cent. It has been suggested that the number of children in the average family is decreasing, but there are no official statistics on this subject, and any statement upon it must be conjectural."
  I quite admit that the right rev. Prelate has brought before our notice, at all events, many facts which are eminently worthy of consideration, and which may tend to modify in some degree the conclusion arrived at at the present time by the Department chiefly concerned, and they will, no doubt, form the subject of most careful inquiry by that Department. But it appears to me that, important as that part of the question is, it is perhaps less important than the other branch of the subject which has been raised to-day. If the condition of a large part of our population is such as it has been described, and if this alleged deterioration is taking place in consequence of the increased numbers of the population who dwell in our towns, then it seems to me doubtful whether it can be an object which any of us desire that the population should go on increasing under conditions which, as it appears, are unfavourable to their health and physical development. It appears to me, also, a question whether the two branches of this inquiry can be satisfactorily conducted together, and whether it is not desirable that our attention should first be concentrated on the subject of the alleged deterioration of our population. As to that deterioration, the evidence which has been referred to is chiefly that obtained from the Report of the Inspector-General of Recruiting. He speaks of—
  "the gradual deterioration of the physique of the working classes, from which the bulk of the recruits must always be drawn,"
  and he goes on to say that in the reports from all the manufacturing districts stress

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  is invariably laid on the number of men rejected on account of bad teeth, flat feet, and inferior physique. His statement of the way in which the working classes have deteriorated appears to be based solely on the reports of recruiting officers in these manufacturing districts, and must be, to a very large extent, a matter of personal observation and opinion. They are not, and I do not believe they can be, supported by any accurate statistics.
  Some reference has been made to the statistics contained in the Report of the Inspector-General of Recruiting showing the percentage of recruits rejected as unfit for military service on medical examination. Those Returns, however, appear to me to be absolutely inconclusive in regard to the question of deterioration of any large part of our population. There is one factor in the matter as to which no figures are given, and which yet seems to me to govern the whole question—that is to say, the number of recruits that are rejected by the recruiters before undergoing a medical examination at all. No attempt is made to give the number of these recruits, and the number of those rejected at the subsequent medical examination must depend to a large extent on the care and stringency with which that preliminary examination has been conducted. If your Lordships look at the return of recruiting last year, you will see that entirely different results will be obtained from the figures given, according as you take a period of five years or three years. Beginning in 1898 the percentage of rejections was 35; in 1899 it was 32·9; in 1900, 27·4; in 1901, 29·04; in 1902, 32·22. It is quite impossible to suppose that those figures really throw any light on the physical condition of the population during those years. Whatever they may show, it is impossible to suppose that the physical condition of any part of the population varied in proportion to those figures. Those figures, and the conclusion of the Inspector-General of Recruiting based upon them, have also been examined by the officials of the Local Government Board; and, although I do not say that they are in a position to draw broad deductions from them, they are at least in as good a position to form their conclusions upon them as the Inspector-General of Recruiting. They concur in the view that there is no evidence of
  1350
  deterioration in the physique of the town working-classes in this country, but rather that it has improved of recent years; and that if a better class of men do not enlist it is because a more permanent and lucrative prospect is offered in civil life.
  I do not submit those conclusions as absolutely conclusive on the subject, but they do offer for our consideration another view of the question from that which has been presented by the noble Lords who have preceded me. But, my Lords, I do not think that it is at all necessary to prove that there is actual deterioration going on with respect to the physical condition of any class of the population. These figures do undoubtedly present for our consideration a question at the present moment which, whether it is better or worse than it has been in former years, is sufficiently grave and important to merit the fullest consideration and inquiry. The subject has been brought recently under the consideration of the Secretary of State for War. In a Minute by the Director-General of the Army Medical Department, Sir William Taylor, which I propose to lay on the Table, that officer says—
  "The rejection of one out of every three men examined by the medical recruiting officer points clearly to poorness of recruiting material."
  And this does not represent the whole of the physical unfitness among men who seek to become soldiers. A large number of men are rejected by the recruiting sergeants, and are never medically inspected. This is a condition of things which is serious, not only from the military point of view but from the industrial point of view. Another passage in the Minute I have mentioned says—
  "If these men are unfit for military service, what are they fit for?"
  And it states that the rising generation in all classes below the artisan class includes a large number of men of very low physique. I trust that those conclusions may be to a certain extent exaggerated and extreme conclusions. Looking to the very stringent requirements of such a profession as the military, and the high standard of physique which is necessary to make a really good soldier, it may be hoped that a very large proportion of these rejected candidates for enlistment are

  1351
  not altogether unfitted for some useful employment in civil life. But undoubtedly it is a serious fact that considerably more than one in three of those who offer themselves for enlistment are pronounced medically unfit. That is a subject which deserves our most careful consideration. I do not think I can dwell much upon the conclusions which were arrived at by the Commissioners on Physical Training in Scotland. I do not understand that they arrived at any definite conclusion as to the deterioration or otherwise of any class of the population in Scotland. All they say is that—
  "There exists in Scotland an undeniable degeneration of individuals of the classes where food and environment are defective."
  This means, no doubt, not a degeneration as compared with the lower classes of previous years, but as compared with the less needy classes of the present time. These questions have been brought, as I have said, under the attention of the Secretary of State for War, and he is, and has been, in communication with the Home Office and with the Local Government Board upon them. Those Departments are all agreed that further inquiry of a complete and searching character is most necessary, and I think it is extremely likely that the mode of inquiry which has been suggested, namely, the appointment of a Royal Commission, will be found to be the most desirable. But we are not disposed to think that the immediate appointment of that Royal Commission would be most desirable. We are not yet in possession of all the necessary facts. The general Report of the Registrar-General, and the decennial supplement, which are issued after every census, are in course of preparation, but they have not yet been completed. Further, we consider that there would be no advantage in appointing a Royal Commission until the scope of its inquiry and the terms of reference had been made the subject of the most careful consideration. What my right hon. friends the Secretary of State for War and the Home Secretary propose to do is to consult upon these subjects, in the first instance the medical profession, through the Councils of the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons. They propose to consult with them as to the best means of obtaining information, not
  1352
  so much as to the extent, but—what appears to us much more important—as to the causes of this undoubted physical deficiency existing in some parts of the population, and as to the best means of remedying these deficiencies, and of improving the national health and strength. We propose to consult these bodies as to whether, in the first place, the appointment of a Royal Commission would be desirable; and, if so, what should be the reference to it and what should be its composition. When these preliminary inquiries have been completed, I think that no time will be lost in taking further steps. As I have said, though I cannot promise the immediate appointment of a Royal Commission I think that may be found to be the most expedient course.
  THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships are all glad to hear from the noble Duke that some means of dealing with this subject are in prospect. Having been the Chairman of the Royal Commission which has been referred to in the course of this debate, I am somewhat disappointed that the noble Duke has not made more allusion to Scotland in his speech, because, so far as I could learn, the Local Government Board, and the other authorities quoted, had reference mainly to England and not to the portion of the country with which this Report was concerned. And I may say that I regret now, not as a Commissioner but as a member of your Lordships' House, that this Commission did not extend its operations to a larger portion of the United Kingdom, because it strikes me that after all the welfare of the rising generation is very much the same, whether the children be Scottish children or English or Welsh children. I am disappointed also to find that something more is not going to be done immediately to inquire into this subject in other portions of the United Kingdom. At the same time I am perfectly certain that what the Government put their hand to they will carry out properly, and I feel sure that any means that can be found to show, and to make others in the country realise, the serious state of matters that has been brought forward, will be adopted by His Majesty's

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  Government. The reason we were unable to obtain more medical information as to the state of matters in the big towns in Scotland was naturally one of Treasury consideration. We were only able to have certain children inspected in Edinburgh and Aberdeen, and we would greatly have preferred to have included Glasgow in the scope of our investigations. We ventured to state this in our Report and to hint that at no distant date a similar investigation into the needs and conditions of the school children in Glasgow would not only be appropriate but almost a necessity. The medical evidence that we received was the best that we could obtain, and, although the number of children that were examined was not very large, still the results that were obtained were sufficiently alarming. I trust that some further inquiry will be made without loss of time, because this is more than a mere Scottish question or a mere British question—it is, as the right rev. Prelate said just now, a question of the most intense Imperial interest. Although His Majesty's Government have, as we know, many important inquiries on at the present time, I consider that an inquiry into this matter is almost more important than any other.
  THE EARL OF LEVEN AND MELVILLE: My Lords, I would ask your Lordships' permission to read a letter which deals in a very important way with this subject. In the north of Scotland the race had, perhaps, some of the finest specimens anywhere in the United Kingdom, but the deterioration that has taken place for many years has been very marked and rapid. I hold in my hand a letter from a medical gentleman who practises over a large extent of country in the north-east of Scotland—Dr. G. P. Hay, of Forres, who writes—
  "I am sorry I cannot furnish you with any statistics on the deterioration of the physique of the people, but the facts are many and come under my daily notice. Children's first teeth are, in a great many cases, decayed as they appear in the mouth, and, in many cases, the second teeth decay as fast as they appear. The health of young servant girls is much affected by the condition of their teeth, and their usefulness, as a consequence, is impaired. There are few who have not false teeth before they are twenty years of age. This class of gills suffer greatly from bloodlessness. The cause of all this is, in my opinion, due to
  1354
  the working class feeding principally on tea (boiled), wheaten bread, jams, and tinned food. There are very few houses in which porridge is made for this class, or milk taken by the children, and it is a great difficulty to get them to take it when ill. Many parents complain to me that the children have too many home lessons, having to stay up late to finish them, and suffer in their health accordingly. All this tends to deteriorate the physique of the rising generation, and to injure their nervous system."
  I merely give that as an instance of the deterioration that is going on in the north of Scotland, and I am glad that this important matter is receiving consideration.
  *THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, I did not intend to intervene in this discussion, because I thought the noble Duke's answer to the two interesting speeches which we heard first would have been sufficient for the position at which we have now arrived. But when the noble Earl behind me, who was Chairman of the Commission which I appointed a couple of years ago, spoke, I thought it desirable that I should assure him that at any rate those of us who are responsible for the administration of Scotland in these matters are by no means ungrateful to him for the great trouble which he took in the inquiry, and for the successful results at which he arrived. But I think it right to point out that, after all, the exact reference which was put before his Commission dealt rather with the question of physical training. The point which has come out most prominently to-night—the alleged deterioration of the population—arose under the inquiry of the noble Earl in a more or less accidental way. There is no doubt whatever that, upon the medical evidence put before the noble Lord's Commission, they did arrive at the conclusion that there exists in Scotland an undeniable degeneration of individuals in places where food and environment are defective. Further than that I do not think the noble Earl himself would say that the inquiry, he was able to make into that branch of the subject, was in any way exhaustive or conclusive of any definite result. There was no idea of regarding the Scottish inquiry as in itself complete, but I do think the

  1355
  noble Duke was right when he pointed out that, at any rate in the first instance, what was necessary for arriving even at a preliminary result was a distinct detailed scientific inquiry by expert medical men rather than by a Royal Commission who had no special training for the duty which might be laid upon them. The Commission over which the noble Earl presided noted certain causes as predisposing to physical degeneration. He mentioned bad housing and bad and insufficient nourishment. I am satisfied that we are in some danger in putting in this matter effect in place of cause, and cause in place of effect. I admit at once there is a case for further inquiry, but I am rather inclined to think that the cases that were inquired into under my noble friend's auspices were those from which you all must certainly expect the very results which his Commissioners found to be existing. In other words, I am not at all sure that it is not the fact that those who are weakly and who are going under in the struggle for life, are those who are unable to provide their children with proper housing and with sufficient nourishment. My Lords, various suggestions have been made by the Commission over which the noble Earl presided, some of which can be further tested without waiting for the inquiry indicated by the noble Duke. There is, for instance, the matter of further medical inspection of children at school. Some large School Boards in Scotland are taking steps to place this inspection upon a scientific and proper basis. It will be our desire, as far as the Scottish Education Department is concerned, to encourage other School Boards to follow their example, and we hope that by these means we shall obtain a truer estimate of the actual state of the school population than we have at the present time. There is also a Joint Commission of the Scottish Education Board and the Board of Education which has for this purpose to arrange for physical exercises suitable for the various ages and various conditions of the children. The Earl of Meath was perfectly accurate when he said that unless these things were carefully supervised they would do more harm than good. It is the opinion of the Scottish Department that much longer time should be devoted to physical training and recreation in schools than is
  1356
  done at the present time. How this may be made possible is a matter for consideration and inquiry, but I hope that the suggestions which have been made will encourage effort in this direction, and we are prepared to consider any application of this kind. I would not have risen at all had I not felt some apprehensions that the noble Earl thought the Commissions' Report had not received attention, but I can assure him that the matters referred to therein have been brought to our notice, and that the inquiry over which he presided will bear good fruit in the future.
  *EARL STANHOPE: I trust the Government will pursue the inquiry, especially into the physical condition of the children of the working classes in those places like Glasgow where manufacturing pursuits are followed and the conditions of life are hardest.
  The subject then dropped.

  GUINEA POSTAL ORDERS BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.

  NAVAL CADETSHIPS.
  THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD: My Lords, some two months ago a very interesting discussion arose in your Lordships' House, through the noble Lord the Earl of Glasgow, upon the new naval scheme described in the Memorandum issued by the noble Earl the First Lord of the Admiralty towards the close of last year. Amongst the many important charges brought about under cover of that Memorandum, one, I venture to think, of the most important is that which deals with the new system of cadetships for officers for the Royal Navy. In the first place, the age of entry has been reduced to between twelve and thirteen years, and, in the second place, competitive examination has been abolished. Now, as far as I know, the only system that exists is one of pure nomination by the First Lord of the Admiralty. Criticism has been passed, and Questions have been asked as to what guarantee the public has that out of the several hundreds of applicants the

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  First Lord of the Admiralty will make a wise and just selection. Speaking on this point the noble Earl the First Lord of the Admiralty used words to this effect, i.e., his sole object would be to endeavour to get those boys who in the future would be likely to make the most competent and efficient officers. He said that in making his selection he should know no other guide than this, and he used these words—
  "I have been thinking very carefully what steps I can take to obtain sure and efficient machinery for ascertaining which of the numerous boys who apply for the grant of nomination will really make the most competent and efficient officers.
  I venture to ask the noble Earl if he can give the House any information with respect to the grant of nomination for naval cadetships for the first examination under the new scheme of entry, and further if he has been able to discover any machinery for ascertaining which of the boys to whom he is about to give these nominations are likely to make the most competent, the best, and the most efficient officers.
  *THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Earl of SELBORNE): My Lords, the problem which confronted me on the reduction of the age of entry to the Navy from what it was to the present limit of between twelve and thirteen is this—how, without resorting to competitive examination, even in a limited form, to make certain that I selected from among the very numerous applicants those boys who would in the future make the best naval officers. After thinking the matter over a long time I resorted to the following scheme. I appointed a Committee, over which Admiral Sir John Fisher presided. He had three colleagues: Commander Hyde Parker, now serving in the "Britannia," Mr. Ashford, science master of Harrow, and the selected headmaster for the Royal Naval College at Osborne, and Mr. Baddeley of the Civil Service, who, as my private secretary, has had great experience in this matter. I laid before this Committee all the information I possessed in respect of all the applicants for nomination who had applied to me, and gave them leave to take any steps that were open to them to seek more information. Among other things they gave the opportunity to every schoolmaster to say anything he
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  wished about the respective qualifications of the boys who were going up from his school. Out of a total number of between 350 and 360 boys I eliminated a few—some 20 to 25 who had only applied for one or two branches of the service. In respect of the remaining 325, who had all entered for all three branches, I invited all of them, without distinction, to appear before this Committee. The work of the Committee extended into three weeks, and each of the boys who responded to the invitation was seen separately by the Committee in an informal interview which lasted a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes in each case. I said to the Committee: "Do not make any attempt to find out what the boy's knowledge is or his standard of education. All I want is for you to report to me generally as to his intelligence and his suitability for the naval service." Now, I think I may say safely that the experiment has been most successful. I asked Professor Ewing, the new Director of Naval Education, who is not a member of the Committee, to attend the meetings frequently and to report whether he thought this was a satisfactory process of arriving at a fair estimate of the boys' comparative intelligence and suitability for the Service. Professor Ewing says—
  "Although I have not been a member of the Committee before whom the boy candidates for nomination have appeared, I have watched the proceedings of the Committee pretty closely, being anxious to see how far this system of informal examination has proved effective. It appears to me to have worked exceedingly well. What the Committee has done is to make the boys talk, and, by putting questions of the most various kinds, to see whether they are observant and intelligent. It speaks well for their method of inspection, that after a few minutes' talk with each boy the Committee have been practically unanimous in their classification of him, and this although the four members of the Committee are men of very different habits of mind. After watching the system at work, I think that probably any group of reasonable men with equally various qualifications and experience, questioning the boys in the same informal way, would form substantially the same judgment on each."
  Now with this report before me which, of course, is a private report to myself, I have made my nominations. I wish expressly to have it understood that I alone am responsible to Parliament for the nominations, and I have only described what I have done in the matter

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  in order that Parliament may see that I have taken such steps as have been open to me to find a better method than competitive examination for the selection of the most suitable boys for His Majesty's naval service. All the boys to whom I have given a nomination will now have to pass a medical and qualifying examination. If they pass the qualifying examination they will pass into the Royal Naval College; if they do not pass, they will never have another chance. I certainly intend on a future occasion to apply the same method, but I shall always take care that the names of the Committee are not published or known in advance. I shall have no hesitation in stating afterwards who the gentlemen were, but I intend to change them on each occasion and never to let the names be known beforehand. I think I may fairly say that this method appears likely to prove a real success.
  The subject then dropped.

  PREFERENTIAL AND RETALIATORY DUTIES.
  *LORD WELBY: My Lords, I rise to ask the Lord President of the Council whether the Government in the course of their inquiries into the results of free trade will collect information as to the administration of preferential and retaliatory duties under the system of protection which reigned up to 1842, and as to any difficulties or disadvantages to trade which attended that administration, and, if so, whether they will have the information reduced to a form in which it can be laid before the public. In offering a few remarks I wish to avoid any controversial aspects of the question and to confine myself entirely to the business view, but I think you will admit that my Question has a very important bearing upon the fiscal policy that has been brought before the country. The fact is that no country, or very few countries, have had such long experience of preferential and retaliatory duties as those under which this country was governed between 1815 and 1842. Of course, the system of protection existed a long time before 1815; but the period between 1815 and 1842 was one of complete peace, and during that time the country was entirely subject to preferential and retaliatory tariffs. That being so, and
  1360
  seeing that a great revolution in our fiscal system is about to be instituted, it would be a breach of duty if the Government does not avail itself of the information which may be gathered in order to utilise it when this great subject is under our consideration. The information, no doubt, is somewhat difficult to get. A long time has elapsed since the reign of preferential duties. All the people who were connected with the administration of those duties have long since passed away, but, at the same time, information on the subject can be obtained by Government, which is the only authority to properly obtain it. I have some recollection of these matters. When I first entered the Treasury between forty and fifty years ago, the reign of protection was not entirely over. A very large number of duties were still in force which were of a protective nature. I was the private secretary to the Financial Secretary of the Treasury during the preparation of the Budget of 1860 and the discussion which followed, and have the most vivid recollection of the labours which my chief had at that time. I heard much of the complaints and remonstrances from the protected interests from which protection was being swept away. The result left on my mind from that recollection, and also from what I learnt from my seniors in office, has been the extreme difficulty that was experienced in the administration of preferential and retaliatory duties while they were in full swing, the anomalies of the system, the injury protection duties caused to large trading interests, and the unjust preference they gave to a small class of traders.
  Protection ruled from 1815 to 1842, and I want to draw the attention of the Government to the point on which I think useful information can be collected. From 1815 to 1860, there were three periods of relaxation from or abolition of protective duties. The first was under Huskisson from 1824 to 1826, the second was in the time of Sir Robert Peel from 1842 to 1846, and finally there were the Budgets, 1853 to 1860. I want to suggest to His Majesty's Government that a Return should be prepared of all the preferential and retaliatory duties that were relaxed or abolished at that time. This Return

  1361
  should state the amount of preferential duties accorded to the colonies, and the amount of retaliatory duties imposed on foreign countries. It should also give the receipts under those duties and the quantities of articles protected which had been imported some years before the change and some years after the change. I think if a Return of that kind were presented it would cover practically the field of the inquiry which is now being instituted, and it would also cover the whole field which lies before the Government and the country when they have to choose—if it be the decision of the Government — what preferential duties should be imposed in the future. But that would only be the first part of the Return. The second part should include a careful research into the number of Committees that sat from 1820 to 1840. They are not a very large number but I am sure that in their proceedings the Government would be able to find a great deal of information from the witnesses that appeared, bearing upon the results of the administration of preferential duties, and the difficulties and anomalies they produced. There is one particular Committee, the Report of which I should like to see republished and circulated, i.e., the Committee on Import Duties which sat in 1840. The Report that that Committee returned to the House of Commons is one of the most interesting documents bearing upon this question. There was also the Committee on Silk Duties, and that which sat on Timber Duties, and no doubt there are others to which reference might with advantage be made. In nearly every one of these Committees there was examined one of the most accomplished and able civil servants ever in the service of the Crown, i.e., Mr. James Deacon Hume, the mentor of Huskisson, the adviser of Sir Robert Peel on commercial questions. Of course, in addition, a large amount of information may be gathered from the speeches of Ministers who proposed reductions in tariffs, and the information so obtained may very effectively be put in the form of a Memorandum and attached to the Return for which I ask.
  Now, to show why I think such information would be very useful, I
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  venture to refer your Lordships to one or two instances of the anomalies and difficulties that have arisen in the administration of these preferential duties and retaliatory tariffs. First of all, I will refer to the Return attached to the Committee on Imports. There is a Paper of all duties which involved protection. It classifies them in three heads. Those duties applied to nearly every object necessary to the existence and comfort of the community, That, I think, would show the field over which the preferential and retaliatory tariffs of those days ranged. I will further call attention to one or two instances, and will first take the duty on coffee. In those days the coffee duty was 6d. in the lb. in the case of colonial coffee, 1s. 3d. in the lb. on foreign coffee, and an intermediate duty of 9d. if the coffee came from the Cape of Good Hope and from East of the Cape. The result of the working of that duty was that it actually paid the importers from Hamburg and the Continent to send the coffee to the Cape of Good Hope in order to bring it back and land it here at a duty of 9d. per lb. It was reckoned that the extra charges of freight of that junketing journey were 1½d. per lb., which had to be added to the intermediate duty of 9d. I ask your Lordships to consider what an absurdity that administration was reduced to. In addition to the duty which the Legislature thought desirable to impose upon coffee, it was found profitable and legal to send coffee several thousands of miles across the sea, with all the loss of the interest on the money concerned, and bearing the numerous charges of freight insurance and shipment in order to sell it here in London. Another very important case which the Government will have to consider, if effect is given to the policy suggested, is that of wool. In 1841 the duty was 1d. per lb. on foreign wool, and in that year we consumed 42,000,000 lbs. of foreign wool, 15,000,000 lbs. of colonial wool, and 92,000,000 lbs. of our own. It was calculated by Mr. James Wilson, the eminent economist who conducted the Economist newspaper, afterwards one of the most able Secretaries of the Treasury, that the extra charge on the raw material by this system of duty amounted to

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  between £500,000 and £600,000, the value of our exported woollen goods being between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000, so that the duty amounted to a duty of 10 per cent. on the raw material as compared with the finished article. Truly, for a Legislature trying to safeguard the interests of trade and promote manufacture, a stranger method of effecting that object could not have been resorted to. Passing to the duties on silk, it had been the intention of Parliament to give all round a general protection of 30 per cent. on silk. Ministers in Parliament, when the duties were subsequently reduced, had to confess that in the carrying out of the administration of those reduced duties, by blunder or by intention, instead of protection ranging around 30 per cent., it ranged from 30 to 250 per cent.
  I will pass on to the case of timber, and the singular history of the timber duty may not be known to your Lordships. In 1810, when Napoleon was organising the Northern Federation, there were great fears in England that the whole of the timber trade would be put an end to—our chief source of supply being Northern Europe. In order to secure a supply of timber, very strong encouragement was given to ships to bring timber from Canada by levying a duty of 55s. a load upon foreign timber. In 1815, when the war came to an end, that duty also should have come to an end, but it did not, and in 1820 a Committee of the House of Commons, which sat to inquire into the question, reported that no pledge had been given as to the continuance of this duty. A Government witness said he could not see why timber in this country should be made dearer for all time to the consumer because of the Copenhagen Expedition. But it did last for a very long time, and timber consumers for a very long time were condemned to pay larger prices in consequence of that expedition. Before the Committee which sat in 1835 a calculation was made that at that time we imported 1,000,000 loads of timber; 600,000 loads came from our own colonies, and 400,000 came from foreign countries. The result of that was that the duty received from timber was £1,400,000, but the price of timber, which was one of the main articles of our manufacture and trade, was raised not by £1,400,000
  1364
  but by £2,750,000, the difference of £1,350,000 going into the pockets of the colonial timber producer. And perhaps in connection with that, as an instance of the way in which those duties were administered, I may refer to a speech made by Sir Robert Peel in 1842. He said that for a long time mahogany, being foreign wood, had been taxed 55s. a load, and if brought into England the cost and duty were so high that it did not pay English furniture makers to use mahogany. It was then exported under drawback to the Continent and made up in furniture shops of France, Belgium, and Germany and then brought back into this country, the unfortunate consumer paying 20 per cent. duty on it. Thus a wise legislature kept all furniture making from mahogany out of the country when it might have usefully employed a number of furniture makers here. Then again, take the case of foreign copper. It was allowed to be brought into England and to be smelted here, but it was not allowed to be made into bolts. Our shipbuilders had to send it to foreign parts to be made into bolts and we had to get the bolts from the foreigner unless we could obtain the supply in our own country. Take another instance. Mr. James Wilson calculated in 1844 that the sugar and wheat duties took out of the pockets of the consuming classes in England £18,000,000 in addition to the amount of the duty. Comment was made at that time that the sum taken out of the pockets of the consumer in addition to the duty would have paid once and a half over, the whole taxation of the country.
  I have said enough to show how necessary it is there should be some inquiry into the history of these preferential tariffs from which I have only culled a few instances. There can be very little doubt indeed that the Legislature of that date never contemplated such absurdities as these to which I have called attention. The Ministers and their officials did not understand the questions with which they were dealing, and these anomalies were in essence the results of legislative blunders. Unluckily those blunders had a habit of remaining a long time on the Statute-book and were only removed when some greater man of the day had his attention

  1365
  called to them and swept the whole system away. But if we are going to undertake again such a system of preferential or retaliatory duties what guarantee have we that some of the blunders will not recur? In those days the Ministers and officials were as able as our men of to-day, but they fell into these errors, and is there any security whatever that when we enter upon this dangerous course the blunders will not be repeated? Only in the case of the corn duty the Prime Minister said recently that he had not realised its effect upon the stuffs brought in for cattle food. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated that in the negotiations of the Treasury with the millers protection was afforded which was not intended to be afforded. Therefore, I venture to point out that already we have seen that there may be mistakes in dealing with this one duty, and I cannot help thinking there is a danger of greater mistakes being made if and whenever a general scheme of preferential duties is enacted. The instances I have given you are only instances, but they are nearly all founded upon responsible authority. I do not ask your Lordships to accept them as infallible, but I say they do show what very dangerous ground we are treading upon, and I venture to impress upon your Lordships that it is the duty of the Government and of Parliament to see that full information on these duties is obtained, that the Government make it clear that they really understand what it is they are about, and further I venture to hope that no mandate will be asked from the electors until such information has been put before them, so as to make it perfectly clear that they understand the new policy which they are asked to substitute for the old.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord that it is extremely desirable that some information should be laid before Parliament, and through Parliament before the country, as to the history of our own experience of preferential and retaliatory tariffs. I am quite sure that there is no one who is more qualified than the noble Lord himself to indicate
  1366
  the sources from which such information can be best obtained. The noble Lord has indicated the nature of the Return, which he would like to ask for; and if he will either move for that Return or communicate privately either with myself or, as perhaps would be better, with the Treasury, we will endeavour to see whether the information he asks for could not be prepared. I suspect there is one part of the Return indicated by the noble Lord which might be regarded as forming a new and perhaps rather inconvenient precedent. I could not very well hear the noble Lord, but I think he said that speeches in Parliament which would throw a great deal of light on the subject might be summarised. I am afraid some objection might be taken to the production of a condensed summary, even of debates which had taken place so many as fifty years ago. We might have some difficulty in supplying that part of the Return. But any information as to the nature of the duties, which then obtained, and as to correspondence which related to those duties we shall be happy, I am sure, to produce as far as we can. I may mention that I have already communicated with the Treasury on this subject and they have expressed their willingness to provide information as far as they can, and have also suggested that a great deal of information on the subject would be found in the Report of Mr. Joseph Hume's Select Committee in 1840 on Import Duties, a Report with which I think the noble Lord is familiar. If he will communicate with the Government—either through myself or the Treasury—we shall be happy to give what information we can.
  LORD WELBY: I beg to thank the noble Duke for his answer. I never intended that a summary of the speeches of the statesmen to whom I alluded should be prepared, but in most of those speeches there are illustrations of these effects and anomalies to which I have called attention, and I think these might with great advantage be selected from their speeches and collected as evidence. That would not take very long and this evidence, coming as it does from Chancellors of the Exchequer and

  1367
  other responsible Ministers of the Crown, would be evidence upon which the Government and the country might rely.
  House adjourned at ten minutes past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.