Sitting of 20 November 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against: from North-West Surrey; South Bristol; and Dunfermline; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions in favour: from Southampton; and Wargrave; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Copy presented of Correspondence relating to the Appeal of the Boer Generals to the Civilised World [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACT (IRELAND), 1877.
  Copies presented of two Orders in Council giving effect to Rules of Court under The Supreme Court of Judicature Act (Ireland), 1877 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (OPIUM).
  Address for "Return of Further Correspondence between the India Office and the Society for the Suppression of the Opium Trade (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 120, of Session 1902),"— (Mr. Henry J. Wilson.)

  PARLIAMENT (DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS).
  Copy ordered, "of Contract, granted the 15th day of September, 1902, to
  Messrs. Wyman and Sons (Limited), for printing and publishing Reports of Debates and Proceedings in Parliament."—(Mr. Hayes-Fisher).

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Liberia— Alleged Outrage on Natives by British seamen on the "Olenda."
  MR. MOON: To ask the Under secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether any further information has been received at the Foreign Office upon the case of the alleged sjamboking of kroo boys overboard a British ship off the Liberian cost whereby several of them were drowed.
  (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) No further information has yet been received. Such evidence as has been obtained in no way supports the allegation made against the master of the steamship "Olenda." Sir W. MeGregor, the Governor of Lagos, who was on board the vessel at the time, had suggested that possibly the missing Kroo boys referred to may have been three who were carried on from Monrovia to Sierra Leone, two of them having been in sir W. McGregor's employment, and His Majesty's Consul at Dakar has been instructed to asceretain and report whether this explanation is the correct one.

  Channel Fleet—Statistics of Efficient Seamen.
  MR. HARMSWORTH (Caithnessshire): To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the percentage of seamen who are efficient in ships of the Channel Fleet.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-forster.) It is not quite clear from the hon. Member's Question what is the information required. In view, however, of his previous Question of the 18th instant, *the inquiry is understood as referring to the numbers who have passed through the gunnery or torpedo schools. The total number of men of the seamen class in the Channel Fleet (excluding ordinary seamen who are not eligible for gunnery or torpedo ratings) is 1711, and of these 1502, or about 88 per cent., have passed through the schools and hold gunnery or torpedo ratings, from that of seaman
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  qualified in gunnery upwards, whilst 948, or about 55 per cent., hold ratings not lower than those of seaman gunner or seaman torpedo man.

  Chatham Naval Barracks.
  MR. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state when the barracks at Chatham will be ready for the seamen at present accommodated in old ships at that port; what has caused the dalay in the completion of the barracks; and whether he has any official Reports showing that there has been a prevalence of lung complaints amongst these men.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) The barracks are now ready for occupation, and are complete with the exception of some additional fittings which have been found necessary since the completion of the main contract. The electric lighting, which had been the main cause of the delay, was completed and trial made on 30th October last. The reply to the last part of the hon. Member's Question is in the negative.

  Deserters and Discharges from the Navy.
  MR. HARMSWORTH: TO ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will give Returns of the number of men who have deserted, bought their discharge, or left the service at the expiration of their first period during the past twelve mouths.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.)During the twelve months ending 30th September, 1902, 1,423 men deserted from the Royal Navy (710 deserters being recovered during the same period), 520 men purchased their discharge, and 626 men left the service on the expiration of their first continuous service engagement.

  Royal Garrison Artillery; Target practice Seawards.
  MR. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state whether the regulation by which officers of the Royal Garrison Artillery may secure accommodation on port guard and coastguard ships to witness target practice still exists; and if so, how many officers have taken advantage of this regulation during the last twelve months.

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  (answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster) The regulation still exists, no officers appear to have taken advantage of it during the last twelve months.

  Search of Postmen—Grievance at Hastings.
  MR. FREEMAN-THOMAS: To ask the Postmaster General if he is aware that it is the practice to search the pouches of the postmen at Hastings and St. Leonards after each delivery; and in case where the postmen book off duty at the head office, the searching of pouches is carried out by a clerk in front of the counter in full view of the public; whether this practice is carried out at all offices under his control; and, if not, will he give orders for it to be discontinued at the offices mentioned.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The practice of searching the pouches of postmen after each delivery is according to rule; but the arrangement for this duty at the head office at Hastings is certainly an undesirable one. and it has now been remedied by transferring the duty of booking off to the sorting office and having the pouches examined there. I may add that no official complaint on this subject has been made by any of the postmen concerned.

  "Special Leave"—Grievance at Hastings.
  MR. FREEMAN-THOMAS: To ask the postmaster General whether the Tweedmouth Committee decided that the rule re special leave, existing at the time they made their Report, viz., March, 1897, were, in their opinion, sufficient; and if he is aware that at that date, and until quite recently, the staff at Hastings and St. Leonards could obtain leave for a few hours upon applying to their respective supervisors, providing a proper substitute was provided; is he aware that this has recently been altered, and the staff now have to make a written application to the postmaster, thereby causing them great inconvenience, and, in some cases where the leave is required unexpectedly at a few hours notice, it is impossible for a written application to reach the postmaster and to be returned in time; and will he give instruction for casual
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  leave books, as at present in use in London and many provincial offices, to be issued at Hastings and St. Leonards.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The Tweedmouth Committee stated in their Report that claims had been made by many classes for more frequent relief on Saturday afternoons, and that, while acknowledging the desirability of such facilities being given where the exigences of the services permit, they considered that the granting of them must be a matter of Departmental arrangement. They also stated that it was urged that special leave should always be granted to a postman when able to provide a substitute. They feared that the concession of this claim would not conduce to the good discipline of the service. The Amount of special leave to be granted to any officer must be left to the discretion of his superior, and the regulations laid down by the Department appeared to them sufficiently liberal. The postmaster of Hastings considered it desirable that no special leave should be granted without his sanction, and he does not appear to have received any official complaint on the subject. There may be, of course, cases of great urgency, when the superior officer on duty must act on his own responsibility, but apart from this the postmaster's action seems right.

  Wages of Postal Officials.
  CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Postmaster General whether, seeing that he has declared that the Post Office should endeavour to keep pace with the increase of wages granted by other employers of labour, that in 1881 a scale of pay was in existence giving £190 per annum to operating telegraphists in London, which scale of pay the Civil Service Commissioners advertised on the papers handed to candidates for employment as telegraphists, and that the maximum salary of an operating telegraphist is now £160 per annum in London, he will state what steps have been taken to assimilate the wages of employees in the Postal Departments to that of other employers.

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  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The Tweedmouth Committee were of opinion that a maximum of £160 a year was adequate pay for the general body of telegraphists, and I see no reason for granting a higher scale. I am not aware that the remuneration of employees of the Post Office compares unfavourably with that given by other employers.

  Poor Law—Isolated or Scattered Homes.
  MR. HENRY J. WILSON: To ask President of the Local Government Board whether he can give the names of the unions in England and Wales which have put into operation the principle of isolated or scattered homes for poor law children, with the total number of children so provided for, and the average number of beds provided in each home in each of such unions.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The following statement gives the names of the unions in which the guardians have established isolated or scattered homes for poor law children, and the number of children provided for in each case. I cannot state accurately the average number of beds provided in each home. but the number would usually be about twelve, and would in no case exceed fifteen.

  Union.

  Number of Children.

  Barton Regis

  6

  Bath

  79

  Blackburn

  91

  Bradford, Yorks

  73

  Bristol

  297

  Camberwell

  337

  Cardiff

  198

  Cheltenham

  33

  Chepstow

  15

  Chester

  52

  Darlington

  19

  Daventry

  26

  Eastbourne

  12

  Evesham

  13

  Gloucester

  39

  Gravesend and Milton

  30

  Hartismere

  11

  Hastings

  24

  Haverfordwest

  24

  Holywell

  10

  Huddersfield

  19

  Keighley

  35

  Kendal

  40

  Kingston, Surrey

  49

  Leeds

  35

  Lincoln

  25

  Long Ashton

  20

  Maidstone

  11

  Carried forward

  1,623

  Union.

  Number of Children.

  Brought forward

  1,623

  Middlesbrough

  128

  Mile End

  196

  Morpeth

  15

  Newport, Salop

  10

  Newton Abbot

  18

  Plymouth

  79

  Reading

  101

  Richmound, Surrey

  29

  Sheffield

  388

  Stamford

  4

  Steyning

  6

  Stockport

  39

  Stockton

  88

  Stow

  22

  Strood

  7

  Toxteth Park

  73

  Warwick

  23

  Worksop

  23

  Total

  2,872

  Provision of the kind referred to has been, or is being, made in the following unions, but I have not at present information as to the number of children to be accommodated in these cases:—Barnstaple, Derby, Hartlepool, Malling, North Bierley, Norwich, Oldham, Pontypool, Rotherham, Wakefield, Wells, Willesden, Great Yarmouth.

  Grove Park (Woolwich) Workhouse—Local Government Loan.
  MR. STEVENSON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he has received any further communication from the Green wich Board of Guardians asking for an interview; if so, what has been his reply, and if he will state his objection to seeing the representatives of the Greenwich Union and of the Deptford Borough Council; and whether, in view of the circumstances of the case, the Local Government Board would be prepared to permit the repayment of the loans in connection withe the building of Grove Park Workhouse to be spread over a term of sixty years if the guardians agreed to open it.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I have received a communication from the guardians asking for an interview, and the request is receiving my attention. As regards the period for the repayment of the loan referred to, I have already expressed my willingness to allow sixty years for so much of it as is required for the purpose of the site. As regards the remainder, the general question of the period to be allowed in cases of this

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  kind is now under my consideration in connection with the Report of the Select Committee on the Repayment of Loans by Local Authorities.

  Argentina-Importation of Diseased Animals.
  MR. STUART SAMUEL: To ask the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can now state what progress has been made in the negotiations initiated by the Government of the Argentine Republic to secure the admission of Argentine cattle for slaughter into this country.
  (Answered by Mr Hanbury.) The representatives of the Argentine Government are now, I think, fully aware of my views as to the measures which should be taken in order to afford further security against the introduction of the foot - and - mouth disease into Argentina and the importation of diseased animals therefrom. It therefore rests with that Government to take the necessary steps to carry those views into effect if they consider it desirable to do so.

  Argentina-Importation of Diseased Animals.

    South African War - Employment of Veterinary Surgeons not Members of the R. C.V. S.
    MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state whether any persons have been employed during the late war as veterinary officers or civil veterinary surgeons who were not members of the Roy al College of Veterinary Surgeons, in the Regular
    Army, Imperial Yeomanry, Remount Department, or in Transports.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The only cases in which veterinary surgeons who were not members of the Royal College were employed was to accompany horse transports from New Orleans, Montreal, and New South Wales. In these cases graduates of the American or Canadian Colleges were engaged locally, and four of these were subsequently employed in South Africa for a short time. The same remark applies to New South Wales. Three gentlemen who were not members of the Royal College were engaged by the Imperial Yeomanry Committee. None,
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    however, were employed in the Regular Army who were not members of the Royal College.

    Northumberland Artillery Militia.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether it s proposed to retain the headquarters of the Northumberland Artillery Militia at Berwick-on-Tweed; and, if so, what steps are being taken to obtain the necessary camping ground for the recruits of that regiment.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.). There is no present intention of moving the headquarters of this corps. The question of hiring the camping ground for recruits rests with the General Officer commanding the district, who will take the necessary measures when the land is required.

    Nigeria Protectorate-Aro Expedition.
    MR. MOON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies the cost of the purchase and transport to South Nigeria of a battery of 12-pounders for the Aro expedition, and the carriage of this battery about a thickly-wooded country by some 150 porters.
    (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain, for the Secretary of State for the Colonies) No 12-pounders or other artillery were specially purchased and sent to Southern Nigeria for the Aro expedition. The artillery employed in the expedition consisted of eight guns, namely, four 75-millimetre guns and four 7-pounders, all of which form part of the ordinary armament of the Protectorate. No additional cost was incurred by the carriage of guns in the expedition. The establishment of the Southern Nigeria Regiment of the West African Frontier Force includes the necessary number of gun: carriers, who are paid at the rate of a day.

    South. Africa-Martial Law Commission's Report.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state when it is expected that the House will be in possession of the Report of the Lord Chief

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    Justice, as head of the Commission recently sent to South Africa to review the sentences inflicted by the Martial Law Courts in that country.
    (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) I am advised that it is hoped to publish it at an early date.

  (2.15.)QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    South Africa—Grants to Repatriated Boers.
    MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state how much of the three million pounds free grant to the Boers has been expended, and in how many cases cattle unfit for work or diseased were given to Boer farmers, and to what extent agricultural machinery has been provided for them; and whether steps will be taken to prevent pauperisation.
    THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,) (for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): I must refer the hon. Member to the answers given to similar Questions on 5th November and 6th November from the hon. Member for South Molton, Chesterfield, and Ross and Cromarty, and to the reply given by the Financial Secretary of the War Office to the hon. Member for South Molton on 11th November. I have no later information. With regard to the concluding part of the Question, care will be taken to distribute relief to those who have a good claim to it.

    Army Examination Text-Books
    MR. LONSDALE (): beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Army cadets and officers entering for examinations experience difficulty because officially prescribed text-books are out of print; and whether he will give an assurance that the obstacles thus interposed in the way of officers pursuing their military studies shall be removed.
    *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): I am aware that certain text-books are under revision owing to changes in Army organisation and duties. Owing to the heavy pressure of the war it has not been found possible to proceed with the revision as rapidly as could be wished, but every effort is being made to push on the work as speedily as possible.

    Volunteer Capitation Grants—Camp Leave.
    MR. FREEMAN-THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, under Volunteer Regulations issued with the Special Army Order of 22nd April. 1902, all Volunteers who were enrolled before the issue of these Regulations will remain under the conditions under which they enlisted until 1st November, 1904, and earn the full grant of 35s. per man, and be given leave from camp provided they can satisfy their commanding officer that they have a valid excuse, or whether they will come under the provisions of the new regulations.
    *MR. BRODRICK: The regulations in respect of exemptions from camp apply only to officers appointed and Volunteers enrolled before the issue of Army Order 246 of 1901.

    Armament of the New Cruisers.
    MR. HARMSWORTH (Caithnesshire): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the new cruisers of the "County" class are only armed with fourteen 6-inch guns, and that their displacement is 9,800 tons, he will consider the advisability of heavier armaments in their case.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): This matter has been most carefully considered by the Admiralty, and it is not intended to alter the armaments in question.
    SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: May I ask whether it is not the fact that these ships cannot bear any heavier guns on account of their lack of stability?
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I cannot give an answer to a technical question. The whole matter has been before the Admiralty, and it has been decided to make no change.
    MR. HARMSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state what guns are to be the armament of the cruisers of 13,500 tons displacement, tenders for which have recently been received by the Admiralty.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The question of the most suitable armament for the new cruisers is receiving the careful consideration of the Admiralty; and no announcement with respect to it can be made at the present time.

    Navy Rations.
    MR. HARMSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state the date, or the approximate date, when the new system of rations will be introduced in the Navy.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I am unable to give the data at present, but I hope I may be able to inform the House early next session.

    H. M. S. "Medusa."
    SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what have been the results of the trials of the Durr water-tube boilers as fitted at Jarrow into H. M. S. "Medusa"; and what has been the total amount spent in connection with the vessel, and including the cost of these boilers.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The trials of the Durr boilers of the "Medusa" by the Boiler Committee will not commence until the middle of January next, and will probably extend over a period of three months. Until the full information obtained on these trials has been reported to the Admiralty, the results of the working of the boilers cannot be given. The preliminary steaming has been satisfactory. The total cost of new Durr boilers for the "Medusa," removing the old boilers, and making the necessary alterations and repairs of ship and machinery, is £65,000.
    SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: Dear me!

    H. M. S. "Good Hope."
    MR. HARMSWORTH: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state for what purpose boarding pikes were recently issued to H. M. S. "Good Hope"; and if he can see his way to stop the issue of these weapons.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Boarding pikes are issued, not as weapons, but for use for miscellaneous purposes on board ship. As they are found to be useful, it is considered preferable to continue to issue those now in stock rather than to break them up or sell them. No fresh stock is being provided.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis): Cannot they be used for gardening purposes?

    Indentured Labour in the West Indies and British Guiana.
    MR. LOUGH (): I beg to ask the Secreatary of State for the Colonies whether the importation of indentured labour into the West Indies and British Guiana continues; and, if so, what number of labourers have been imported during each of the last five years.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): The answer to the hon. Member's Question is that the importation of indentured labour into British Guiana, Trinidad and Jamaica continues. The number of indentured immigrants imported into the British West Indies and British Guiana in each of the last five years has been as follows: 1897, 3045; 1898, 3648; 1899, 6724; 1900, 7136; 1901, 7390.

    Currency Questions in British East Africa and Uganda.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the transmission of Indian bank notes from British East Africa and Uganda to India and the consequent reduction in the available currency, and in order to prevent the absence of paper money as well as of gold money placing difficulties in the way of trade, he will provide for the issue of local bank notes at an early date.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): The attention of His Majesty's Government has been drawn to this matter. A draft Order in Council providing for the issue of Government paper currency in the East Africa Protectorate is at present under consideration.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: And as to Uganda?
    LORD CRANBORNE: I will get information as to that tomorrow.

    Bristish North Borneo—Railway to the Interior.
    MR. WEIR (): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is yet in a position to say when the new railway from Jessletown to the interior of British North Borneo will be completed and open for traffic.
    LORD CRANBORNE: The railway is still twelve miles short of its interior terminus. The whole line (110 miles) should be open for traffic by the end of next year. At present ninety-five miles are open to traffic.

    British Sugar Refineries.
    MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the president of the Board of Trade if he will state how many sugar refineries are now working in Great Britain, and how many tons of sugar were refined in this country during the years ending 31st March 1902, 1901, 1891, 1881, and 1871.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I am informed that there are eleven sugar refineries now working in Great Britain, exclusive of makers of glucose, invert and other brewing sugars. The quantities of sugar refined in this country cannot be precisely stated for years ending 31st March, but the following figures have been supplied to me showing the approximate quantities refined in certain calendar years. 1902 (estimated quantity) 625,000 tons; 1901, 628,000 tons; 1891, 700,000 tons; 1881, 825,000 tons; 1871 600,000 tons.

    Welsh Sunday Closing—Bogus Clubs.
    MR. KENYON (): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the effect on existing powers under the Welsh Sunday Closing Act of the Licensing Act, 1902, especially as regards clubs; and whether, with a view to assisting efforts now being made to bring bogus clubs under the notice of the police and licensing authorities, he will issue a special notice in Welsh and English explanatory of the provisions of both Acts, to the justices and police authorities in Wales; and whether he can hold out any hope that in the next Session he will be prepared to introduce a Bill to prevent evasions of the Sunday Closing Act.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. COCHRANE,): I do not think that the Welsh Sunday Closing Act is directly affected by the provisions in the new Licensing Act with regard to clubs; but I hope that the new Act, may, even if indirectly, prove of assistance to the other. I have issued to justices and the police throughout the country circulars, explaining the new Act, and I do not think that there is any necessity for a special notice in Welsh such as is suggested. As regards the legislation which my hon. friend indicates, I am afraid that I cannot hold out any hope.

    Canadian Cattle Trade.
    SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will now inform the House what proposal he has made to extend the time limit for the slaughtering of Canadian cattle at landing ports in this country; and whether it will enable farmers to resume the feeding of young stores.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY,): I have made no such proposal—and no similar proposal which has been made to me had for its object the feeding of young stores. The two subjects are quite distinct.

    Bovine Tuberculosis.
    SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the Veterinary Surgeon's Report for the year 1901 to the Corporation of Glasgow, showing that, of 46,784 homebred cattle slaughtered in that year, 6,332, or 13.53, were found affected with tuberculosis, while amongst 49,881 Canadian and States cattle the number was only 66, or 13; and whether, seeing that in the million and a half of Canadian and States cattle killed in this country since 1892, the rate is about one in 4,000, while it has been ascertained that among the home cattle killed in Glasgow one in every seven or eight is tubercular, and that foreign buyers have demanded tests for tuberculosis in all the breeding animals they have bought in this country, he will propose measures to diminish the prevalence of tuberculosis in our home cattle, and to raise their health to the Canadian standard.
    MR. HANBURY: I have seen the Report to which the hon. Member refers. Its author attributes the comparative freedom from bovine tuberculosis of Canadian and United States cattle to the more nautral life which they lead in their native country, a condition which it would not be possible, I am afraid, to reproduce in its entirety at home. Some advance has, however, been made in this direction by the enactment of suitable regulations with regard to the ventilation of cowsheds, but the making of such regulations rests with the various local authorities, and their confirmation is in the hands of the Local Government Board, and not of my own Department.

    Argentine Cattle Trade.
    MR. SCHWANN (): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he is continuing his negotiations with the Argentine Minister in this country with the view of opening the slaughtering ports of this country to the importation of live cattle for slaughter from the River Plate, and of opening Argentine ports to the importation of British breeding stock; and, if so, whether he can say when he expects to bring the negotiations to a conclusion, in view of the present prices of meat.
    MR. HANBURY: The representatives of the Argentine Government are now, I think, fully aware of my views as to the measures which should be taken in order to afford further security against the introduction of foot-and-mouth disease into Argentina and importation of diseased animals therefrom. It therefore rests with that Government to take the necessary steps to carry those views into effect if they consider it desirable to do so.

    Education Department Architect.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS (): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether the Architect to the Education Department is still permitted to take outside and private professional work, such as advising those responsible for the erection of schools, the plans of which have to be submitted to the judgment of the Board of Education.
    THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,): This mater is being carefully considered by the Heads of the Board of Education. In the circumstances, I think the hon. Member will not wish to press his Question at the present time.

    Education Bill—Voluntary School Grants.
    SIR WILLIAM HOULDSWORTH (): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether in cases where an education grant has been earned by a voluntary school, but not paid before the local education authority becomes responsible for its maintenance, the whole of such grant will in every case be paid over to the foundation managers.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSON: If I understand the hon. Member's Question correctly, the case is met by Rule (11) of Schedule II. of the Bill.

    Schools in the Island of Lewis—Paths Required.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that children residing in the township of Tom-an-Fhuadain,

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    Gravir, in the parish of Lochs, Island of Lewis, are frequently unable to get to school during the winter months on account of there being no footpath; and will the Congested Districts Board consider the expediency of providing a grant in aid for the construction of a path.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire): As the hon. Member has already been informed the Congested Districts Board wrote to the Parish Council of Lochs on 18th April, 1901, asking for certain information to enable them to consider an application for this path. The Board have not yet received this information, though they have repeatedly asked for it. Until it comes they are unable to consider the question of a grant in aid of the construction of this path.

    Burying Grounds in the Island of Lewis.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that the Lewis District Committee report that although they have called upon the Parish Council of Uig, Stornoway, under threat of legal proceedings, to take immediate steps to provide burying grounds in place of those at Balanakill, Kirivig, and Little Bernera. Island of Lewis, the request has not been complied with; and will he state the cause of the delay.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The matter is under consideration of the Parish Council, and as negotiations are now proceeding it seems to the Secretary for Scotland inexpedient at present to make further comment which might raise difficulties or prejudice the transactions.

    Fishermen's Dwellings at Stornoway.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the whole of the twenty-nine and a quarter acre sites, for fishermen's dwellings for Stornoway have been applied for; and, if not, will he state how many applications have been received and the number of sites allotted.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Up to 8th November, twenty-six applications
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    were received. Some time is necessary for enquiry and the settlement of details, so no sites have yet been allotted.

    Tolsta School, Island of Lewis—Outbreak of Typhus Fever.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, having regard to the fact that the public school at Tolsta, Island of Lewis, which has on its register 196 children, has been closed since 3rd July last on account of an out break of fever, and that there is at the present time an epidemic of typhus fever at Tolsta will he state what steps are being taken to prevent the epidemic from spreading; and seeing that the local authorities are unable to arrange for the isolation of patients at Tolsta, will the Secretary for Scotland consider the expediency of applying to the Treasury for a special grant to meet the difficulty.
    *MR. A GRAHAM MURRAY: Every precaution in the way of segregation, cleanliness and free use of disinfectants has been employed. The typhus cases only numbered six of which four are now convalescent. Under the circumstances the Secretary for Scotland cannot undertake to approach the Treasury.
    MR. WEIR: Will the right hon. Gentleman make enquiry as to whether there were not four cases of typhus in one house, and no hospital accommodation?
    [No answer was returned].

    Trout Preservation (Close Time) Act.
    MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate what steps he has taken, or proposes to take, to make public the provisions of the Trout Preservation (Close Time) Act, which recently came into effect, seeing that in some localities no information regarding it is in the possession of the police, and no instructions have been received on the subject.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: It is not usual for the Crown Office to take any special steps to publish the provisions of an Act of Parliament. I shall, however, be happy to make a communication to the local authorities who are responsible for the police upon the matter.
    MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: To the Sheriffs of the counties, I presume?
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: To the local bodies.

    Illegal Trawling off the Caithness Coast.
    MR. HARMSWORTH: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that in the Sheriff Court at Wick, on the 17th October last, a Norwegian seaman described as master of a trawler, was convicted of illegally fishing within the three-mile limit off the coast of Caithness, and that it was elicited in evidence that the real master belonged to Grimsby, and that the owners of the trawler were a Grimsby Company who had the vessel registered in Norway; and, in view of these facts, will he state what steps he proposes to take to prevent a recurrence of such cases, seeing that British trawlers are excluded from trawling within the Moray Firth.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The information in the possession of the Secretary for Scotland goes to show that the facts of the case are correctly stated in the early part of the hon. Member's Question. Enquiry was made at Brevig through the Norwegian Government, and, according to the information supplied, a decision was come to on the 25th August last by the Maritime Court there, to the effect that the documents and other evidence produced by the Company were satisfactory and entitled the ship to registration as a Norwegian ship. In view of what occurred at a Wick on 17th October, the matter has been made the subject of a further communication to the Foreign Office for presentation to the Norwegian Government.

    Athy Licensing Prosecution.
    MR. CAREW: I beg to ask Mr. Attormey General for Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the police prosecution of Mr Patrick Knowles, publican, at the last petty sessions in Athy, in which it was sworn that the police permitted a drunken man to enter the publican's licensed premises, and then prosecuted the publican; and whether he will direct the police in
    24
    future to first arrest men seen drunk under such conditions without waiting for an opportunity also to prosecute the publican.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (MR. ATKINSON,): The police did not permit the drunken man referred to to enter the premises of Mr. Patrick Knowles. On the contrary, he entered into these premises without the knowledge of the police. Even if they did permit this man to enter the publican's premises, as alleged, that is no excuse whatever to the publican for having supplied the drunken man with drink to make him more drunk. No special directions, such as suggested, can be given to the police for the purpose of protecting publicans from the temptation to violate the law. Each case must depend on its own circumstances.
    MR. TULLY: Was it not sworn at at the petty sessions that the police did permit the man to enter the premises, for the purpose of getting a prosecution?
    MR. ATKINSON: If so it must have been falsely sworn.

    Roads in Queen's County.
    MR. CAREW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Local Government Board has been directed to the condition of the road leading from Ballybrophy Station to Rathdowney, Queen's County; and whether, in t view of the complaints of the presenl state of the roads in Ireland, he will be prepared to appoint a special inspector to report as to the manner in which the officials responsible for the roads discharge their duties.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The Board's attention has not been directed to the condition of this road. It is the duty of the County and District Councils, as the case may be, to keep all public works in good condition and repair, and to take all necessary steps for that purpose. In the event of default on the part of either local authority in this

    25
    respect, the Board, upon receipt of a complaint under Section 82 of the Act of 1898 from the other local authority, would have power to make an order fixing a period for the performance of the duty. If the duty were not performed in the period so fixed the order might be enforced by writ of mandamus or the Board might appoint a person to perform the duty. The Department would have no power to take effective action upon the reports of a special inspector.
    MR. TULLY: Has not the dilapidation of the roads become very serious in Ireland, and will the Local Government Board appoint an inspector to supervise the officials responsible for them?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have said that the Board would have no power to act on the reports of such an inspector.

    Mohill Workhouse Entertainment.
    MR. SLOAN (): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to an all-night entertainment which took place in the board room of Mohill Workhouse on 7th November last; will he state if a licence was granted for a bar that was erected for sale of liquor; and what steps the Government intend taking in the matter.
    MR. TULLY: Before the right hon Gentleman answers, may I ask was not this entertainment got up to provide funds for a technical school in connection with the Union, and did not the Local Government Board sanction the use of the board room?
    MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member has anticipated my answer. The Guardians of the Mohill Union applied to the Local Government Board for its consent to the use of the board room of the workhouse for entertainment to be given with the laudable object of raising funds in aid of a night-school for technical instruction. On the understanding that the officers connected with the workhouse would maintain good order and discipline on the occasion, the Board gave its consent. A similar entertainment was given last year in aid of the Dr. Smyth Memorial fund,
    26
    Refreshments were sold under the authority of an occasional licence, granted in pursuance of the Inland Revenue Act, 1863.
    MR. SLOAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that dancing was carried on in this particular room until 7 a. m.?
    MR. WYNDHAM: That was the object of the enterainment.
    MR. TULLY: Will the hon. Member allow no fun in Ireland except in Belfast?

    Second Term Rent Reductions.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the total amount of the reductions in second term rents made by the Land Sub-Commission Courts during the last twelve months.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The reductions amounted to £26,047, or 20.4 per cent. on first term rents.

    Meath Roads.
    MR. CAREW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Local Government Board has been directed to complaints as to the road from Hill of Down to Ballivor, county Meath, being obstructed by overhanging trees for a distance of two miles; and whether any explanation has been received from the county surveyor of Meath as to his failure to enforce Section 9 of the Act 14 and 15 Vic., c. 92, in this instance.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The duty inposed on the county surveyor by the section of the statute referred to has, by the 72nd Section of the Local Government Act, 1898, been vested in the County council. It is now the duty of the latter body to take the action prescribed by the first-mentioned statute.

    Marine Store Dealers Act.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the nature of the instructions sent to the Royal Irish Constabulary to enforce the Marine Store Dealers Act in provincial

    27
    towns in Ireland; and the number of successful prosecutions by the constabulary under this Act during the last twelve months.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The constabulary are instructed to enforce the provisions of the Acts which apply to marine store dealers and dealers in old metals. The provisions of these Acts have been communicated to the police. A return of prosecutions undertaken during the past year has been called for, and when received will be sent to the hon. Member.

    Union Solicitors as County Councillors.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that solicitors to Boards of Guardians are eligible for membership of County Councils, he can state on what grounds the Local Government Board issued a sealed order disqualifying workhouse medical officers for that position; and whether this is in accordance with the practice in England and Scotland.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Solicitors to Boards of Guardians are not poor Law Officers, and the Local Government Board has no control over them. The order disqualifying paid officers engaged in the administration of the Poor Relief Acts from taking pars in the proceedings of Councils, was issued in the interests of the sick and destitute poor. I have no information as to the practice in England and Scotland.

    De Freyne Estate—Cost of Extra Police.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the cost of extra police in connection with the agitation on the De Freyne estate, the amount of the demand for extra police to the Roscommon County Council, and the area on which it will be levied.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The cost of the extra force of police employed in connection with this and neighbouring estates amounts to about £1,200 per annum. For the period from December, 1901, when the force was sent, to the 30th September last, the charge to local rates is £499 4s. 10d., which will be levied off
    28
    a district comprising 114 townlands and the towns of Ballaghadereen and Loughglynn.

    Irish Prison Officials—Chief Warder Hennessy.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds Chief Warder Robert Hennessy was transferred from Maryborough Convict Prison to Mountjoy Local Prison; what was the nature of the complaint against him; and what is the reduction in his salary and the effect on his promotion of this transfer.
    MR. WYNDHAM: This officer was transferred in exchange with another chief warder. There was no complaint against him, and no reduction in his salary. The transfer will have no effect on any prospects he may have of promotion.

    Maryborough—Lynchehaun's Escape.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what changes were made in the prison staff at Maryborough in consequence of the escape of the convict Lynchehaun; how many officers were dismissed the service or reduced in rank; and who has been appointed as Governor of Maryborough Prison, and what are his qualifications.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Acting Governor has been transferred to his former position of Governor of Kilmainham, a principal warder and a warder were compulsorily retired on pension, one warder was discharged, and two others were reduced in classification. Mr. Weir has been appointed Governor of Maryborough Prison. He has filled the post of Deputy Governor of Mountjoy Convict Prison.

    Promotion in the Belfast Post Office.
    MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that since the present Postmaster was appointed to Belfast every vacancy for assistant superintendents (with one exception) has been given to junior clerks; and will he arrange in future that the claims of senior clerks will be considered before an appointment is made.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The claims of all the officers referred to shall be considered for promotion as vacancies occur.

    Ballymoney and Portrush Post Offices.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he will give particulars of the amount of postal business transacted at Ballymoney and Portrush respectively, and state the reasons which have led to the abandonment of the project of providing a new post-office at Ballymoney, while new premises for postal purposes are being advertised for at Portrush.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMERLAIN: The Post Office business at Portrush is about 70 per cent. larger than that at Ballymoney. The post office at Ballymoney has recently been enlarged, and a new office is not required there. At Portrush a larger office will be required before long.

    Education Bill—Closure Procedure.
    MR. MALCOLM (): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will consider the advisability of taking steps to abridge the proceedings upon the Education Bill, consequent upon the acceptance of the Closure Resolutions by the House, by limiting (on occasions when closure by compartments is about to operate) the Questions to be put to two, viz., that the Amendments put from the Chair be accepted; and that all Clauses, after Amendment or otherwise, stand part of the Bill.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): In answer to my hon. friend, I have to say no doubt the procedure he suggests would have much to recommend it from the point of view of convenience, but I think the House would probably resent being deprived of the opportunity of expressing their opinion upon the particular questions that come before them. I may say I hope the House will feel that it is not necessary to make any modification in the Rules in this direction; and I do not think it will be necessary if the precedent set at the time of the Home Rule Bill, and the precedent set on the last evening on which there was Closure of this Bill,
    30
    be followed, as I trust they may be. I remember that, in regard to the Home Rule Bill, the number of divisions that was taken was always considerably less than the actual number of Questions put from the Chair, and it was made more or less a matter of arrangement as to what divisions should be taken, in order that the Opposition—who at that time were the Gentlemen now on this side of the House—might express their objection to particular proposals contained in that measure. I think that is certainly far more convenient than the course that was adopted of dividing against every Motion, whether it was important or unimportant, or whether it embodied a question on which the Opposition agreed with the Government, or whether it dealt with a question on which the Opposition were divided from the Government. I am convinced that the general good sense of the House will be able to solve this question satisfactorily.
    MR. MALCOLM: Does the right hon. Gentleman see any chance of the precedent of 1893 being copied in 1902?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope, after what occurred on the day before yesterday, there will be no difficulty.

    Aid Grants to Roman Catholic Schools.
    *COLONEL SANDYS (): I wish to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state the amount to be paid annually as an aid grant to Roman Catholic schools under the Education (England and Wales) Bill from from moneys provided by taxation.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As my hon. friend is probably aware, the existing aid grant to Roman Catholic schools is abolished, and all the grants are now paid to the local authority. What proportion of these grants paid to the local authority will be used by the local authority in supporting Roman Catholic schools it is impossible for me to foresee.
    MR. TULLY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the amount of the equivalent grant for Ireland?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not see how that arises out of the Question.

    Amendment of the Registration Laws.
    MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that in Parliamentary elections held towards the end of any year no tenant occupier or lodger is able to vote who has not begun his tenancy at a period of from twenty-six to twenty-nine months previous to the election, the Government will introduce a Bill at an early date to amend the Registration Laws by shortening the period of qualification and establishing a more frequent registration.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As the hon. Gentleman probably anticipates, I cant not give any pledge as to legislation for next year.

    ICE CREAM SHOPS (SCOTLAND)(No. 2) BILL.
    Order for Committee read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

    EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
    New Clause (Managers):—
    (2.40.) MR. TREVELYAN ()moved to omit the second paragraph of sub-Section (2). He objected to this provision on the ground that it give a very vague and unsatisfactory direction to the Board of Education. The words to which he took particular exception were those which provided that the Board of Education should have regard to the principles on which the education given in the school had been conducted in the past. One school might might have many pasts. It might first have been an undenominational school. It might have been founded by some individual or individuals without any sectarian intention at all, but from the mere fact that the people living in the district were
    32
    not interested in educational matters, or were unable to act as managers, the parson might have secured control and gradually imposed upon it a denominational character. He might at first have only introduced religious teaching which was scarcely to be differentiated from undenominational schools, but his successor might have been a man with High Church views, who completed the transformation from an undenominational to a denominational school. It was quite possible for such a case to have occurred, and indeed only on the previous day he was told of a case where an undenominational school was built for the benefit of the children of a community of Welsh miners, which school had since got into the hands of the local parson, and was treated by the Department as a Church of England school. They objected to allowing the Department to make a school such as that a denominational school. It would be much more desirable that there should be a mandatory obligation on the Department to consider what the desires of the founder were. There was no reason why the Board should be absolutely bound by the views of the original founder, as the circumstances might have changed, but it was a serious thing that a mandatory clause of this kind should suggest that the Board should take into consideration what might have become customary in the district. He hoped the Government would consent to the Amendment.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In line 16, to leave out the words, 'In making an order under this section with regard to any school, the Board of Education shall have regard to the principles on which the education given in the school has been conducted in the past.' "—(Mr. Trevelyan.)
    Question proposed, "That the words 'In making an order under this section with regard to any school, the Board of Education shall have regard to' stand part of the Clause, as amended."
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the object of the words in question was that in those cases where there were no trust deeds the Board of Education should act so as to take into account as far as possible the actual practice adopted in the school that was to be dealt with. That was the only

    33
    equitable way to deal with the matter. Of course if there was a dispute, that could be put right in the Law Courts, but de facto, the only way to deal with the matter was the one the Clause suggested.
    MR. BRYCE ()thought the right hon. Gentleman had missed the point of his hon. friend's Amendment. His hon. friend's case was that there were a number of schools with regard to which no trust deeds or other documents existed; where there was no definition under the authority of the founder or in any scheme as to what kind of religious instruction should be givenin the school; yet, in point of fact, a practice had grown up, not based on any recommendation, under which distinctive denominational instruction had been given. His hon. friend conceived that that practice was an improper practice and an unjustifiable one, which, though it might have been acquiesced in, was not legal. He desired to prevent that practice being followed in the future. He based his argument on the ancient principle that a practice which had no legal basis could not vary the law, or, in other words, abuse did not make right. Where there were cases where abuse had occurred, they ought to go back to what the original intention of the founder was, and if the intention was that no distinctive denominational teaching should be given, that intention should be observed. If they could not prove what the intention of the founder was, the fair course would seem to be to make the school available for the largest number of the population, and give the least ground for friction on the part of any sect. In either case it would be improper that ancient usage, illegitimate in its action, should be suffered to prevail. In the absence of proof the school should be available for the largest number, and managed in conformity with the general wish. Therefore he thought his hon. friend was justified in his Amendment, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to accept it. If it were not accepted friction would arise, and a good many complaints would be made which would find their way both to this House and the Law Courts.
    *MR. HELME ()said he would point out the difficulty in which the Education Department would be placed if the Clause was allowed
    34
    to stand. It was not proposed to interfere in the case of managers giving religious teaching in harmony with the denominational character of the school. The difficulty was to determine the principle upon which the education of the school had been conducted in the past. He was acquainted with a chapel of ease built by a number of Churchmen with the intention and design of propagating Low Church doctrines, the patronage of the living being vested in the vicar of the parish, which position came later into the hands of an occupant through purchase. A school was subsequently built for the same purpose, but the chapel and the school in time passed into the hands of a High Churchman, with the result that the whole tone of doctrine preached and character of the school entirely changed. He wished to know whether under this Clause the school was to be considered and conducted on the former Low Church principles, according to the wishes of the founders or the more recent High Church teaching? Which would the Department adopt as being "the principles on which the education given in the school has been conducted in the past." He thought the Government would be wise to accept the Amendment, omitting this Section, and so give greater freedom in making the Order.
    MR. ALFRED HUTTON ()said that nobody doubted that the interests of the Church were adequately protected, and he thought that in such a case as that put before the Committee, where, through laxity, or indifference, or neglect, a school founded for a particular purpose passed into the hands of others, the particular purpose for which the school was founded should have some protection. He thought that the Government in settling the terms which the Board of Education were to draw up, should say what they ought to have regard to, and that they ought to have regard to the wishes of the founders of the schools. Hon. Members were always talking of the "pious founder" and robbery and spoliation, and he thought if any interests were to be looked after the interests of those who built the schools should be regarded.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON ()thought that in his speech the First Lord had assumed that the schools had always been carried on according to the wishes of the founder. There was no desire on the part of the Opposition to alter the system where the schools were so conducted. The First Lord had not, in fact, dealt with the point of this Amendment, which was that, where the wishes of the founder, for good reason or for bad, had not been carried out, the schools should be made to revert to their original purpose. He objected to the Clause because it left the matter quite vague. He desired to ask the Secretary to the Education Department what the Government meant by "the principles on which the education given in the school has been conduced in the past." If that meant that it had been conduced in accordance with the wishes of the founders, there was nothing to be said, but take the case of a school such as had been described, where, during the last two years, the character of the school had been altered from what it had been for twenty years previously; did "conducted in the past "relate to the two years or the previous twenty? All that was desired by the Amendment was that the founder's wishes should be protected in a school the conditions of which had changed, and which was not carried on in accordance with the wishes of its founder.
    MR. WHITLEY ()characterised the reply of the First Lord of the Treasury as the most unsatisfactory that had ever been given during the whole course of the Bill. The only thing the right hon. Gentleman had said was that the law courts were open for the settlement of disputes. He had refused the Amendment of the hon. Member for Carnarvon, that the locality should have alocus standi before the Board of Education when an Order was made. An order had the effect of a trust deed, and therefore the remedy offered was no remedy at all. It seemed to him that this was another effort on the part of the Church to obtain property which she had no right to. He held in his band the particulars of an investigation made in the Holmfirth Parliamentary Division of
    36
    Yorkshire, which was a strong inducement for the acceptance of the Amendment. The first illustration he would make was a school called the New Mills Infant School. That school was rebuilt in 1875 by public subscription, and in 1877 it was put under a scheme which distinctly stated it was to be used as an undenominational school. At the present time the management consisted of the vicar and three Churchmen, who held their position by virtue of a subscription of five shillings. They were the men who would apply to the Board of Education before the Order was issued. There was a distinct invitation to those persons to put forward a scheme which would convert undenominational schools into denominational schools. That was a case where the reply of the First Lord had no effect at all, because there was no remedy at law if there were no trustees at present existent. He had found, in the course of his investigations, that there were, in one Parliamentary Division, no fewer than seven cases in which schools founded for undenominational purposes had been actually acquired by the Church of England, and which at the present moment were put down in a Parliamentary Return as national schools, although they were built and endowed with money provided by people who had no idea that they would have that character in regard to religious instruction. There was reason in this Amendment, but if the Government could not see their way to accept it, something in the nature he proposed in an Amendment lower down on the paper might be accepted—"That the Board of Education should have regard to the principles and purposes for which the school was founded." He made this plea in fairness of mind, and hoped the Government would meet them half way.
    (3.4) MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON ()said there was a point arising out of this Amendment on which he considered the Committee would do well to get the advice of the Attorney General. He had listened very carefully to what the First Lord had said in answer to his hon. friend's proposal, that if there was anything illegal, or wrong, or contrary to the rights of ownership, that could be settled in the courts

    37
    of law. Now, what he wanted the Attorney General to advise them upon was this; if this Clause passed with these words in it, would not the recourse to the courts of law be entirely precluded? The Clause gave power to the Board of Education to make an Order which should recognise the principles on which the education in the school had been conduced in the past. Would not the mere fact of the Clause being in its present form go to legalise the very principles on which the education given in the schools had been conduced? The result would be to make the Order effective as if it were part of the trust deed. Therefore, if the Board of Education, having regard to the principles in question. passed an Order which gave effect to those principles, would not that Order be as valid as the trust deed. and would not. therefore, the hypothetically illegal principles be legalised by the Order?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs)said he thought the hon. and learned Gentleman had rather exaggerated what would be the effect of the Order made by the Board of Education under this Section. This Order would deal merely with the question of the appointment of managers; it would not affect the terms of any trust deed which the court of law might declare to be binding upon the foundation. And the result of that would be that the court of law would find that the principles of a particular denomination ought to be taught in the schools. No doubt what the hon. and learned Gentleman had said was true to this extent, that the Order fixed who were to be the managers, but the Order would not in any way affect how the managers were to be elected, or determine the religious character of the schools. That would be open to the court of law to determine in the case suggested by the hon. Member.
    MR. WHITLEYhoped the hon. and learned Attorney General would pardon him. but did he say that the managers under this Bill would have the power to determine the nature of the religious instruction to be given in these schools?
    SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid he was not going to be diverted into a general
    38
    argument on a very fascinating subject, but to deal with the very pertinent question put by the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. In regard to the general effect of those words, of course, they were not intended to have any application so as to over-ride any trust or legal rights in regard to the schools, but they were only intended to afford guidance, where the matter might otherwise be in doubt, as to what were the principles with which they were to have regard in determining how the managers were to be selected. The right hon. Member for South Aberdeen would recognise the familiar principle that where there was no trust to be clearly deduced from the history of the institution or documents connected with it they must have regard to long usage. That subject was very fully dealt with in a remarkable speech made in this House by Lord Macaulay in regard to a certain body in this country. The right hon. Gentleman might identify the speech he referred to by a very curious error of the reporter; Lord Macaulay was made to speak of the "Pandects of Benares" instead of the "Pundits of Benares."† All that this Clause was intended to do was to call attention to the fact that long usage, in the absence of any clear right otherwise expressed, was a matter to which attention should be paid in determining how the managers were to be appointed.
    MR. M'KENNA ()said he wished to call attention to the case of a small school in Wales. Fifty or sixty years ago certain Nonconformist miners by their weekly contributions out of their wages erected a school, but the time came when they could not maintain the school owing to economic causes. Since 1870 the school had been carried on with the help of subscriptions from Church people, and the management of the school was now in the hands of three Church managers. Now, he put it, that as the capital charge of that building, which was
    †The reference is to a speech by Macaulay (in the Commons) on the Second Reading of the Dissenters' Chapels Bill, 6th June, 1844, reported, in (3) Debates, LXXV.,338. In the preface to his "Speeches" (corrected by himself)—(1865 Edition)—Macaulay points out many extraordinary blunders in the report, including that referred to by Sir Robert Finlay.—[ED]

    39
    originally intended by these Nonconformist colliers to be a Nonconformist, or at least a secular, school, had been found by these miners, was it reasonable that the school building should be handed over as a Church subscribers it might have been reasonable that the management should be in the hands of Church managers, but after this Bill was passed this building would no longer be a Church school; and local feeling would be strongly aroused if a grave injustice were done, if their intention were absolutely disregarded, and the school handed over as a Church school while it was to be maintained out of the rates largely paid by these very miners. He submitted to the First Lord that if he would not accept the Amendment of his hon. friend he might consider the words suggested by the hon. Member for Halifax. The claim of the Church to the exclusive use of the voluntary schools was based on the rights of property, and here was a case where the property was not the Church's — although the Church had had the full advantage of its use for many years—and he thought it would be only fair that the school should be handed back to the people by whom it was built and for whom it was intended.
    MR. HENRY J. WILSON ()said that there were a large number of cases, beside those mentioned by the hon. Member for Halifax, where schools were built by public subscriptions from all classes and upon allotment lands. These schools had one by one been absorbed and made denominational schools. There was a case in which a school was endowed for teaching girls sewing and reading; now it was being used to teach boys the Catechism.
    MR. EMMOTT ()said that the Committee had had a very partial reply from the Attorney General. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that, under the scheme for the appointment of managers, the managers would be all of one denomination. Afterwards an action
    40
    might be taken in a Court of law; and it might be found that the principles taught in the school ought to be for another religious denomination. In that case, they would have a situation which the Prime Minister had repeatedly declared would be impossible, viz., managers of one denomination dictating the religious teaching of another denomination. There was another point in which he, as a Churchman, was interested, and which arose out of another matter, the root of which lay in the present unfortunate differences in the Church of England. There were three types of Churchmen. He had heard them described, perhaps by the enemy, as "the low and lazy". "the broad and hazy," and "he high and crazy." The question he wished to ask was—Would it, under the Clause, be necessary for the Board of Education to appoint a Low Churchman as a successor to a Low Churchman, a High Churchman to succeed a High Churchman, and so on; or would the Board simply have regard to the denomination. He ventured to suggest that the language of the Clause should be altogether altered. The intention on the Clause was perfectly obvious. It was, that a school of one denomination should not be diverted to another denomination. Would it not be far simpler to Provide for the carrying out of that intention?
    MR. SAMUEL EVANS ()said he would very strongly object to the Education Department having the right to say that, if the management of a school happened to be in the hands of the Church, that school should be dubbed, once and for all, a Church school. He desired to ask two questions, in reference to two words in the sub-Section which were very vague. Were they to understand the word "Principles" to refer merely to the religious instruction given in the school, and not to comprise the principles on which the school had been conducted? There were many cases in which the founder gave the site for a school, and built it, with or without assistance, and where he allowed the Board of Management to be elected by the inhabitants of the district generally. Would the word "Principles," in such a case, comprise not merely educational

    41
    principles in regard to religious instruction, but the principles of management also. He submitted that some such meaning as that should be included; otherwise, they would be excluding the principles on which the school was managed in the past. His other question referred to the word "past." He assumed the word was intended to cover the past of the school, so far as it could be reached. He did not see how the Board of Education could say that they would only consider a period of three or five years. The words were vague, and the Committee was entitled to some further explanation regarding them.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)said he would like to put a converse case to the Prime Minister. A school was transferred to a School Board; the managers and the trustees were still in existence, and had only parted with the school temporarily. He wished to know whether the sub-Section would apply in such a case. Would the Board of Education have regard to the principles on which the school was conducted in the past, and decline to allow that school to revert to its position as a denominational school. The Prime Minister promised to insert words which would protect parishes in such cases from the possibility of a re-transference; because since the school had been given up, the School Board had kept the building in repair, and made it an effective school; and it would be rather a hardship if it were to be re-transferred, and new bitterness created in the parish. It was infinitely worse that things should be turned back, as it were, than that the conditions of things when the Act came into operation should be continued. The Prime Minister promised to consider words to meet a case such as that; and he was sure the right hon. Gentleman would redeem his pledge, if he remembered his speech.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he recollected the speech to which the hon. Gentleman had referred. He had explained to the Committee, on more than one occasion, how he thought the rather difficult situation which the hon. Gentleman brought to the notice of the Committee should be
    42
    dealt with. He did not think they ought to interfere in any way with the ownership of such schools. They, at present, belonged by hypothesis to some denomination; they had been temporarily transferred or leased to a School Board; but the lease did not interfere, was not intended to interfere, and ought not to be allowed to interfere with the freehold or ownership of the school in any way; and, in so far as the rights of ownership came into the question at all, those rights ought to be absolutely protected. Then the hon. Gentleman asked, "Are you going to allow a school to be re-transferred by the local authority, and turned into a denominational school under the new conditions created by this Bill?" The answer was that the mere re-transfer by the local authority of a school to the owners of that school ought not to carry in that the re-establishment of that school as a denominational school. That ought not to happen ipso facto; the case ought to be considered under the special provisions in Clauses 9 and 10, which ought to be held operative; and the deciding authority would not permit the re-establishment of the school as a denominational school without a local inquiry.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid he ga hered that the First Lord of the Treasury was half inclined to accept the suggestion he had made, which he thought would save a good deal of time. It was to add words which would make the sub-Section read, "The Board of Education shall have regard to the principles on which the education given in the school has been conducted in the past, and the purpose for which the school was founded." He would respectfully ask the First Lord of the Treasury to reply before they proceeded to a division.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that, as he understood the situation, his view of the equity of the case was that where there was a trust deed, that trust deed must govern, and must not be overlooked. But they had to deal with the admittedly difficult cases in which there were no trust deeds; and all he could say was that, in considering those cases, the Board of Education, in framing their

    43
    schemes, must have regard for use and wont. That did not interfere with the ownership. Supposing it was shown in the various cases brought before the Committee by hon. Gentleman opposite that a Church school had gradually slid, as it were, by imperceptible degrees, into the control of another Church, the remedy would be in a court of law, and that remedy would not be over ridden by the Clause. If it could be shown that a school did not belong to the denomination using it, that denomination ought to be deprived of the further use of the school; but the machinery to determine that was a court of law. It would be impossible, and most indesirable, for him to endeavour to give a judgment on the particular cases brought before the Committee, and to say whether in this case or in that, on the facts presented, he thought the school really belonged to the denomination using it. That was a question it was impossible for him to determine. It could only be properly determined in a court of law; and the Clause did not stop the remedy of a court of law. He really did not see that anything more could be done, or should be done. The whole case was governed by the general principles he had laid down, which were in accordance with the practice of the House, and which carried out the general rules of equity which generally prevailed in their debates.
    MR. BRYCEsaid the remedy afforded by the courts of law was an expensive one, which people might not be willing to take advantage of. The Board of Education had on many occasions practically made a school a denominational school by giving it denominational managers. Take the case of a school which was formed without any denominational intention, which had fallen into the hands of the Wesleyan body, and which had been carried on as a Wesleyan school for fifteen years. The Board of Education made that a denominational
    school by appointing Wesleyan managers, but nobody would feel inclined to test the matter in a court or law. His objection to the sub-Section was that it seemed to him to compel the Board of Education to recognise what might have been a wrong use of the school, and the school might become a Wesleyan school by usage which was entirely illegal. There was a considerable danger in the use that might be made of the sub-Section, and he thought the Government would be wise either to drop it altogether or to modify it.
    MR. WHITLEYargued that when persons came to the Board of Education with proposals for a scheme, the Education Department should have power to require the managers to produce evidence of what the principles were on which the school was founded. In the case of the New Mills school, to which he had referred previously, they would produce the scheme. All that the Amendment asked was that they should not take the school as it was then carried on, as it might be carried on in a manner contrary to the intentions of the founder, but should require evidence of the intention with which the school was founded.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the case which the hon. Gentleman had instanced would not present any difficulty. The school was held under a scheme; the scheme was a trust. The school therefore was practically carried on under a trust, and that trust would be the governing consideration. Everything done under the Clause must be done in conformity with the trust, if there was one, because the whole Clause was framed with the idea that the trust should govern the scheme.
    (3.34) Question put—
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 171; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 561.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Bowles, T. Gibson(King's Lynn

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Arrol, Sir William

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Bignold, Arthur

    Brymer, William Ernest

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Campbell, RtHn. J. A.(Glasgow

    Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Purvis, Robert

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Helder, Augustus

    Pym, C. Guy

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Randles, John S.

    Chamberlain, RtHn. J. A(Worc

    Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.)

    Randin, Sir James

    Chapman, Edward

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

    Rattingan, Sir William Henry

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Coddington, Sir William

    Hozier, Hon. JamesHenryCecil

    Ridley, Hn. M. W.(Stalybridge)

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hudson, George Beckersteth

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Robinson Brooke

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Kemp, George

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Denny, Colonel

    Lawson, John Grant

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Dewar, SirT. R.(TowerHamlets

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S.

    Smith, HO(North'mb. Tyneside

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Leveson-Gerald Walter Erskine

    Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks.)

    Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Spear, John Ward.

    Doxfard, Sir William Theodore

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

    Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth

    Stock, James Henry

    Elriot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Macartney, RtHn. W. G. Ellison

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Talbot, Rt. Hn. T. G.(Oxf. Univ)

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ(Manc'r

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    M'Killop, James (Liverpool)

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Finch, George H

    Malcolm, Ian

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Tufnell, Lieut,-Col. Edward

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Valentia, Viscount

    Fisher, William Hayes

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Vincent, Col. SirCEH(Sheffield

    Fison, Frederick William

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Flower, Ernest

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Walrond, Rt. HnSirWilliamH.

    Forster, Henry William

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Wanklyn, James Leslie

    Gardner, Ernest

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Warde, colonel C. E.

    Garfit, William

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Welby, Lt-ColA. C. E.(Taunton

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Greene, SirE. W (B'rySEdm'nds

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Wylie, Alexander

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewbury)

    Percy, Earl

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Groves, James Grimble

    Plummer, Walter R.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. RobertWm.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    NOES.

    Allan, Sir William(Gateshead)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Lambert, George

    Allen, CharlesP(Glouc.,Stroud

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Langley, Batty

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Edwards, Frank

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Bell, Richard

    Ellis, John Edward

    Leng, Sir John

    Brigg, John

    Emmott, Alfred

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Lloyd-George, David

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Fenwick, Charles

    Logan, John William

    Bryce Rt. Hon. James

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Burt, Thomas

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Gladstone, Rt. HnHerbertJohn

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Caldwell, James

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Cameron, Robert

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Partington, Oswald

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Harwood, George

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden

    Cawley, Frederick

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Rigg, Richard

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigam

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    46

    47

    Sandys, Lieut,-Col. Thos. Myles

    Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr

    Williams, Osmond (merioneth)

    Sehwann, Charles E.

    Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

    Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid)

    Shackleton, David James

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Toulmin, George

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Wason, Eugene

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Weir, James Galloway

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Spencer, RtHnC. R.(Nothants

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Mr. Trevelyan and Mr. Whitley.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Tennant, Harold John

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    (3.48.) MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)thought it very desirable that in considering the form of their order the Board of Education should have regard to the ownership of the school building, and he moved accordingly.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In line 17, after 'regard,' insert 'to the ownership of the school building, and.' "—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    *THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON,)said the Amendment appeared to be a proper addition to the Clause, and therefore, on behalf of the Government, he would accept it.
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONmoved to add the proviso "That no such Order should treat as denominational a school which cannot be shown to have received a denominational character from those who established it." He pointed out that the Government had admitted the possibility of abuses in this matter, and had expressed the opinion that such abuses ought not to be allowed. He thought, therefore, they might fairly give consideration to this Amendment. Instances had been given in which the original intention of the founders had been entirely departed from and a wrongful usage of the school grown up. These schemes were to be practically statutory, and it was not right that a school founded as undenominational should by Act of Parliament be turned into a denominational school.
    Amendment proposed—
    "After line 18, to insert, 'Provided that no such Order shall treat as denominational a school which cannot be shown to have received a denominational character from those who established it.' "—(Mr. Sydney Buxton.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR ROBERT FINLAYthought the words went a great deal too far. By long usage a school might have been enjoyed by a particular denomination, and on the strength of that usage a scheme sanctioned by which the school was devoted to a particular purpose connected with some form of religion. The effect of this Amendment would be to rip up all that arrangement, and send the Board of Education back, perhaps 300 or 400 years, to inquire what the intention of the founders was.
    MR. HERBERTLEWIS (Flint Boroughs)said the remarks of the Attorney General reminded him of a case in which it was very desirable that the foundation should be, to use the hon. and learned Member's phrase, "ripped up." The case to which he referred was that of the endowment of an educational charity by a Nonconformist more than 200 years ago. In course of time that charity had become impressed with a Church character, and was at present administered by five clergymen of the Church of England. The object of the trust had been entirely altered, and the charity was now of a purely Episcopal character. In cases of that kind it was very necessary that the schemes should be reviewed, and, having regard to the new provision made for education by this Bill, the present was a proper and convenient opportunity for laying down a rule of this kind.
    MR. BRYCEexpressed his surprise at the line the Attorney General had taken. The hon. and learned Member had argued as though there was a statute of limitations in this matter. Could any statute or dictum be pointed to which declared was such a prescription?
    SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid the Amendment would apply to every case; it would go behind every scheme, and send the Board back to the original intention of the founders.
    MR. BRYCEsaid the Attorney General had argued on usage, and said nothing about schemes.
    SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid he distinctly stated that there might be a case of considerable usage, a scheme founded on that usage, and that the result of the Amendment would be to set all that aside.
    MR. BRYCEwas sorry if he misunderstood the hon. and learned Member, but he understood his argument to go the length of saying that where there was usage, and not a scheme, usage was to prevail. If, however, the Amendment was varied so as not to cover schemes, would the Attorney General accept it? Would he agree that, where it was a matter merely of usage, that usage should not be taken to have turned a school originally unsectarian into a sectarian establishment? The cases concerned were comparatively modern; they did not go back into the mists of ages, as had been suggested.
    LORD HUGH CECIL ()pointed out that the right hon. Gentleman was proposing to enter into a controversy which had already been before Parliament, and which, in one conspicuous instance, had been decided in a sense contrary to the argument of the right hon. Gentleman. In the celebrated controversy about the right of the Unitarian dissenters to their chapels, there was no doubt that the body had changed their theological position, and there was nothing but usage to justify them in retaining their chapels and schools; yet it was held to be improper to break through the usage of many years standing. Parliament not merely did not interfere to take the chapels away from the Unitarian dissenters, but they interfered to secure the chapels to them; they broke through the ordinary law in order to do what they thought was equitable and fair.
    MR. BRYCEsaid the case referred to raised an entirely different principle.
    50
    That was, the question of the continuity of a visible church of a particular religious body, but the present question raised a totally different issue.
    *SIR FRANCIS POWELL ()pointed out that under the Endowed School Acts, and under the Parish Councils Act of 1894, when dealing with charities, a limitation of this character was inserted. The proposal was therefore not new.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the question was whether or not they were going to put these schools into the category or denominational schools. Surely it was not unreasonable, where it could be done, and where the schools were never intended to be denominational, that they should be stereotyped as denominational schools. When these schools had been built within the last hundred years there was no difficulty in getting at their origin. The Attorney General had not attempted to meet the argument that where a school was not denominational when founded it should be continued for ever to be so used. He suggested the addition of the following words: "All of which have been made denominational by a valid scheme." He thought that would meet the point of the Attorney General.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he was willing to accept the addition of the words suggested, and he would move his Amendment in the amended form.
    Amendment amended—
    "By inserting, at the end the words 'or which has not been made denominational by a valid scheme.' "—(Mr. Samuel Evans.)
    Question proposed, "That those words, as amended, be there inserted."
    SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that he could not accept this Amendment. As he had pointed out before, there were two points which this Amendment entirely ignored as originally proposed, namely length of possession, and the circumstance that they might even, in some cases, have schemes in accordance

    51
    with usage. The Amendment to the Amendment would remove the second of these objections, but it did not deal with the first at all. It was common ground that where there was a valid existing trust it must remain, and no one questioned that. But the hon. Member had now actually proposed an Amendment which said that, however long possession had been enjoyed, the burden of showing that it was founded for denominational purposes would be thrown upon them. This Amendment was intended to throw upon those who had been in the enjoyment of the school for any length of time the burden of showing that it was established, in the first instance, for that purpose, and if they could establish that, then enjoyment for 200 years was not to count for anything at all. That was contrary to the principle upon which this House usually proceeded, and it was entirely contrary to the principle upon which the House acted in the case of the schools and chapels belonging to the Unitarians.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid he hoped his hon. friend would go to a division with
    his Amendment, and thus enable them to vote in favour of a principle which he was sure was perfectly just. The Attorney General had referred to the argument that because these buildings were erected some time ago they should not now be taken into account. That was one kind of justice for Nonconformists and another for Churchmen. How many Church schools were there to-day which were built by Churchmen, but which had never had a single penny from subscriptions spent upon them, all the expenses having come out of the public funds? Hundreds of those schools had been maintained out of the rates and by means of grants from the Education Department. Therefore, if equal justice were done all the way round, these schools, which were built avowedly for undenominational purposes, would not be continued as denominational schools as was now proposed.
    (4.10.) Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 86; Noes, 200. (Division List No. 562.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

    Allan, Sir William(Gateshead)

    Harwood, George

    Samuel, Herbet L. (Cleveland

    Allen, CharlesP(Glone.,Stroud

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

    Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thos. Myles

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Shackleton, David James

    Brigg, John

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Holland, Sir Wm. Henry

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Hurton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Burt, Thomas

    Lambert, George

    Spencer, RtHn. C. R(Northants

    Caldwell, James

    Langley, Batty

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Cameron, Robert

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Tennant, Harold John

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Leng, Sir John

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lloyd-George, David

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

    Cremer, William Randal

    Logan, John William

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Wason, Eugene

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Weir, James Galloway

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    White, George (Norfork)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Newnes, Sir George

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Dunn, Sir William

    Nussey, Thomas William

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Edwards, Frank

    Palmer, SirCharlesM.(Durham

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

    Ellis, John Edward

    Partington, Oswald

    Wilson, Fred W.(Norfolk, Mid.

    Emmott, Alfred

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Fenwick, Charles

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Reid, SirR. Threshie(Dumfries

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Rigg, Richard

    Mr. William M'Arthur.

    NOES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Gardner, Ernest

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Garfit, William

    Pease, HerbertPike(Darlingt'n

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Gore, HnG. R. Cormsby-(Salop

    Percy, Earl

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Arrol, Sir William

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Atkmson, Rt. Hon. John

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Greene, SirE. W(B'rySE lm'nds

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

    Grenfell, William Henry

    Purvis, Robert

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Groves, James Grimble

    Pym, C. Guy

    Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Randles, John S.

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. RobertWm.

    Rankin, Sir James

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Bignold, Arthur

    Helder, Augustus

    Rattigan, Sir William Henry

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Horner, Frederick William

    Robinson, Brooke

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Butcher, John George

    Hozier, Hon. JamesHenryCecil

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Campbell, RtHn. J. A.(Glasgow

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

    Kemp, George

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Kenyon, Hon-Geo. T.(Denbigh

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Chamberlain, RtHonJA(Wore.

    Knowles, Lees

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Chapman, Edward

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Smith, HC(Northm'b. Tyneside

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Coddington, Sir William

    Lawson, John Grant

    Spear, John Ward

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Leckey, Rt. Hn. WilliamEdw. H.

    Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Stock, James Henry

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Long, Col. CharlesW. (Evesham

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

    Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Lonsdate, John Brownlee

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Denny, Colonel

    Lucas, Reginal J. (Portsmouth)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Dewar, SirT. R.(TowerHamlets

    Macartney, RtHn. W. G. Ellison

    Valentia, Viscount

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Vincent, Col, SirC. E. H(Sheffield

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Walrond, Rt. Hn. SirWilliamH.

    Dorington, Rt, Hon. Sir John E.

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Wanklyn James Leslie

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Malcolm, Ian

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E(Taunton

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Maxwell, RtHnSirH. E(Wigt'n

    Willonghby de Eresby, Lord

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

    Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir FrederickG

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Man'r

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Finch, George H.

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Wyhe, Alexander

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Grav C.

    Wyndham, Rt, Hon. George

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Murray, RtHnA. Graham (Bute

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Younger, William

    Fison, Frederick William

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Flower, Ernest

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Sir Alexander Acland Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Forster, Henry William

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    The next Amendment on the Paper stood in the name of Mr. Edmund Robertson, and was as follows—
    54
    "In line 24, after 'shall,' insert 'subject to the provisions of this Act. have the exclusive right of appointing and dismissing the teachers.' "
    *(4.25.)THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think this Amendment is relevant to this Clause. This Clause does not define the powers of the managers. It only refers to their qualifications.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONasked the attention of the Committee to sub-Section (4) of the new Clause, which was in the following terms:—
    "Notwithstanding anything in any trust deed, the body of managers appointed under this Act for a public elementary school not provided by the local education authority shall be the managers of that school both for the purposes of the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1900, and this Act, and, so far as respects the management of the school as a public elementary school, for the purpose of the trust deed.'
    That was the only Clause which conferred power on this special body of managers, and he proposed to enlarge the powers.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: I think that to insert the word "exclusive" would be really to make confusion where there is no confusion. I am perfectly clear that the local authority has the right, to dismiss and if you now proceed to put in "the exclusive right" you are very likely to lead to confusion.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he was willing to move the Amendment without the word "exclusive."
    *THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is very doubtful whether the Amendment should come under this Clause at all, but if the hon. Member thinks it does, I shall not object to his moving it.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he had some reason to hope that the Amendment would be accepted by the Government. It carried out the policy which the Government had repeatedly and distinctly declared was their policy.
    SIR JOHN GORST (): I rise to order. I do not know whether the hon. Member is going to move the Amendment. It is out of order because it is contrary to what the Committee has already decided, namely, that the appointment of teachers should be subject to the veto of the local authority. If he is going to move it without the word "exclusive" it is
    56
    tautology, because the Committee has already decided that the managers are to appoint the teachers.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is quite clear that the word "exclusive" should not be in, because it cannot but lead to confusion.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONstated that he would move the Amendment in the form suggested by the Chairman. on 28th October his hon. friend the Member for the Morley Division moved in effect the same provision as an Amendment on Clause 8. His right hon. friend the Member for West Monmouthshire pointed out then that now here in the Bill was this power given to the managers. The First Lord of the Treasury, in his reply, said—
    "There had never been any doubt or secrecy on the part of the Government as to what their policy was on this matter. The appointment of the teachers would be with the managers, and with the managers as a whole, acting in their corporate capacity, and, therefore, there could be no difference of opinion between the Government and the mover of the Amendment on that point."
    Then his hon. friend the Member for the Carnarvon Borough pointed out that there were to his knowledge trust deeds in which the appointment of the teacher was given, not to the managers under the proprietors of the school. To that the First Lord answered—
    "If there are trust deeds such as the hon. Member speaks of—and it is possible that there may be—then I think there is a case for inserting words to make the point clear."
    The hon. Member for the Morley Division said that after the assurance of the Leader of the House that this point would be made perfectly clear, he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. On the same day a question came up as regards dismissal in reference to an Amendment which he himself had put down at that stage of the Bill. That Amendment was ruled out of order, and the First Lord repeated the assurance already quoted. He said—
    "My view, which I have over and over again stated, is that, in so far as functions are left to the managers of a school, they are left to be exercised by the managers as a body."
    It was intimated by the Chairman that the First Lord would propose a new Clause later on, and on what he took to be an assurance that the power of

    57
    dismissal as well as of appointment would come up in the Clause now under discussion, he abstained from moving the Amendment of which he had given notice. He submitted that both as to the appointment and dismissal of teachers, the Government were committed by their declarations at previous stages of the Bill to accept the Amendment he now proposed. He would not dwell on the head of appointment, but in regard to the dismissal of teachers, he would like to bring before the Committee the necessity for such an Amendment. They had been going on this question blind: they had been dealing for days and weeks with legal instruments which they had not seen. This very Clause tore up, at all events affected, tens of thousands of trust deeds, only one or two of which were identified in the small Blue-book laid on the Table a few days ago. But in one there were provisions relating to the dismissal of teachers which he was quite certain were not known to the majority of hon. Members. In the National Society's trust deed, a Committee of management was appointed, and to that Committee was committed the power of selection and dismissal of the schoolmaster, and schoolmistress and their assistants, except when under the provisions afterwards mentioned the dismissal of any master, mistress, or assistant should be awarded by the Bishop of the diocese or the arbitrators. Two bodies external to the local authority and the Board of Managers had the power of dismissal. When a dispute arose between the minister, not necessarily in his capacity of a member of the committee, and the committee of management respecting the religious instruction of the scholars, or the dismissal of any teacher from the school, on account of his or her defective or unsound instruction of the children in religion, the matter was to be laid before the bishop, and the decision of the bishop in writing, after it had been laid before the committee, should be final and exclusive in the matter. That dealt with the bishop. But that was not all. Supposing the matter in dispute other than, and except such difference as last described should arise in the committee of management, the minority might apply to the Lord
    58
    President of the Privy Council for the time being, and to the bishop of the diocese where in the school was situated, who might appoint arbitrators to make inquiry into the matter of difference and decide in the dispute. But the deed went beyond that. It was further declared—
    "That if the said bishop, or the said arbitrators upon any such reference shall direct or award that any master, mistress, or teacher shall be dismissed, such direction or award, when a copy thereof shall have been served upon the said master, mistress, or teacher personally, or by the same being left at his or her place of abode, or at the school, addressed to the said master, mistress, or teacher, as the case may require, shall operate as a dismissal of the said master, mistress, or teacher, so as to prevent him or her thenceforth from having any interest in her or his office, or in the said school or premises under, or by virtue of, this deed, and so as to disqualify him or her from holding thenceforth any right or interest under this deed by virtue of his or her previous or any future appointment.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: From what is the hon. and learned Gentleman reading?
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid he was reading from page 5 of the Blue-book on precedents of trust deeds. There might be a question of ambiguity, as to whether this particular power of dismissal given to the bishop could only be exercised as a consequence of the arbitration having taken place upon the difference which had arisen. That might be argued; but he did not so read the trust deed. He read it that this power was given to the bishop in addition to the general powers given to the arbitrators. The bishop himself apparently independent of the arbitrators might direct the dismissal of the master, mistress, or teacher. Whether or no, there was given to the bishop under two heads the power of dismissal. Now he did not think that that was in the contemplation of the House, when, as he understood, the Government came to an agreement that the power of dismissal should be vested in the managers subject only to the veto of the local authority. It was not desirable that such a system should be perpetuated, and it was to obviate that that he had proposed his Amendment. The whole policy of the Bill in regard to non-provided schools was that there should be dual control—the provided schools were under single control—the control of the

    59
    managers on the one hand, and the control of the education authority on the other. But up to this point they had not recognised or admitted the possibility of a third and extraneous body interfering with the appointment or dismissal of the teachers. He believed that in some of the trust deeds contained in the Blue-book the powers were stronger than those he had quoted; but this was the important deed—the deed of the National Society which demanded the attention of the Committee. He appealed to the First Lord of the Treasury to abide by the declarations he had made so often, that, so far as the management of the school, including the appointment and dismissal of teacher was concerned, the State should only recognise these two authorities—the local education authority, and the body of managers, created by the Bill. He appealed to the Committee whether it was to be tolerated for a moment that the teachers of the State, supported by public funds, should be dismissed by an extraneous authority? The power of dismissal was given to the bishops in two separate cases; first, when a dispute arose between the clergy and the laity. In that event the decision of the bishop was final. Or, when a dispute arose in the committee, and any member of the committee in the minority might appeal to the bishop and the Lord President, who would appoint arbitrators, and these arbitrators, or the bishop, might award and declare the dismissal of the master, mistress, or teacher.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In line 24, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words, 'subject to the provisions of this Act, have the right of appointing and dismissing the teachers.' "—(Mr. Edmund Robertson.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid that he observed the Government were not quite ready to make answer to the argument of his hon. friend the Member for Dundee. He was not astonished at that, because the Attorney General and the Prime Minister, who affected to ignore the law, to spurn and scorn the law, including the law of the lawyers, had not had an opportunity of discussing the trust deed. He could put the case for this Amendment in a very few words. The provision was that there were two
    60
    classes of appeal. The first dealt with the case where the dismissal of a teacher from the school was on the ground of his or her defective or unsound instruction in religion, or, where the dispute arose between the minister and the managers, and in that case the appeal was to be to the bishop. In all other cases the dispute might be referred to a Board of Arbitrators selected by certain persons, the arbitrators including an inspector of schools. The Clause in the deed to which his hon. and learned friend referred was the Clause setting forth what would be the result in the two cases, and the construction placed before the Committee by his hon. and learned friend was the true one. There was no doubt that it was clearly understood that there was to be no appeal under this Bill to the bishop or to any extraneous authority. In the case of a non-provided school the managers ought to determine whether a teacher should be dismissed. The clause recognised an appeal from the decision of the managers to the bishop and to arbitrators, and in his opinion there ought to be nothing of the sort. The matter ought to be determined by the local authority, or the managers of the schools, as the case might be.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the case which the right hon. Member had brought before the Committee was one that had not been previously considered, and, so far as he personally was concerned, it was a point which was entirely new. He had not thought of the appeal to the bishop in the case of a dismissal on the ground of incompetence or neglect on the part of a teacher to teach religion in accordance with the denominational rule of the school. He dismissed altogether the point raised with regard to arbitrators as irrelevant, in as much as they had made general provisions handing over the control of secular instruction to the local authority. With regard to the position the bishop occupied in connection with religious instruction, he confessed that aspect of the case was new to him. The hon. and learned Gentleman had quoted a previous debate in which he had said, not for the first time, that his conception of the Bill had always been that the managers, though a composite body, should act as a single body, and through a majority of its members. He thought that should apply to all the subjects that

    61
    came under the control of the managers. That, of course, excluded the dismissal of the teacher by any individual member of the board of managers, whether a clergyman or any other member; but on the face of it, it did not exclude an appeal to the bishop. He must not be taken as giving any decision on the part of the Government as to the policy they ought to pursue in the matter, but when that decision was given it would comply with the general policy they had laid down. He could not say more to the hon. and learned Gentleman at present, except that he did no think was the proper place in the Bill to raise this question.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Where does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that it ought to be raised?
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon and learned Attorney General suggested that the schedule was the proper place.
    MR. BRYCEsaid the Government ought to be grateful to his hon. and learned friend for having brought this matter to their notice. He pointed out that if the matter was left to be dealt with in the schedule, there would be no opportunity to discuss it; and suggested to the right hon. Gentleman whether, under the circumstances, an opportunity could not be found for discussing it when Clause 8 was discussed on Report.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he would consider whether anything could be done at a later stage.
    MR. BRYCEsaid the matter was obviously one not only to be discussed, but also to be dealt with. It could not be passed over without some decision being arrived at. The right hon. Gentleman had indicated the decision which might be considered a right one by the Opposition, but the matter ought not to be left as it was. His view was that after the managers and the local authority no third party ought to be allowed to come in.
    MR. A. K. LOYD ()said it was wrong to regard this intervention of the bishop as a dismissal by the bishop. It
    62
    was an erroneous view that the bishop would have any power to dismiss a teacher. He quoted from a form of trust deed for Church schools issued by the Education Department 1845–1870 to show that a case was stated for the bishop on a matter of doctrine on which he gave his ruling, and that while the decision of the bishop would be "final and conclusive in the matter," the committee of management was "expressly required to take all such measures as may be necessary for immediately carrying the said decision into complete effect." So that the matter was put back into the hands of the managers. The bishop might have found in favour of the teacher. It would therefore, he thought, be a great pity if the idea got abroad that the bishop had power to dismiss a teacher. If this power was altered by hon. Members opposite, they would deprive managers of a very great advantage which they now possessed. The power was a valuable privilege given to the managers, and not an arbitrary power given to the bishop.
    DR. MACNAMARA ()said he did not propose to go into the question of the arbitration at all. No doubt many of the trust deeds did provide an absolute power of dismissal either on secular or religious grounds, and they were therefore in conflict with Clause 8. It might not be necessary to do anything, but he submitted that rather than allow a conflict of the sort to arise, with the possibility of litigation, it was necessary to make it quite clear that whatever the terms of the trust deed were, the terms of Clause 8 should be absolute. Would Clause 8, as far as it set up a veto on the dismissal of a teacher, be quite absolute?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, on secular grounds.
    DR. MACNAMARAasked whether it was not necessary to do something to remove any appearance of conflict between this Clause and Clause 8.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I will consider it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    (5.0.) LORD HUGH CECILbegged leave to suggest a remedy which he thought would be acceptable to the hon. Member for North Camberwell, and which would reserve the whole question of what were to be the precise relations of the board of management to a dismissal in regard to religious instruction, while it would absolutely concede the point made by the hon. Member for North Camberwell.
    Amendment to the proposed Amendment proposed—
    "After the words 'provisions of this Act,' to insert 'and to the provisions of the trust deed relating to religious education.' "—(Lord Hugh Cecil.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
    MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the noble Lord's Amendment would not do at all. It was not acceptable to the front Opposition Bench, nor would it be, he thought, to the front Government Bench, for it would perpetuate the position that was now possible under the trust deed. There were two questions of policy which he should like to put to the Prime Minister. The first was this. He assumed that the Government were not willing that the clergyman, in spite of the other members of the committee of management, if he could get his bishop to agree with him on appeal, was to have the right of dismissal. He understood that the Government intended that only the committee of management acting as a homogeneous body, could dismiss, and not a particular member of the committee.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No particular member.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANS: The dismissal must be by the committee of management, or the majority of the committee, quite apart from any question of appeal?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid that was a clear statement, and therefore they must take away entirely from the
    64
    clergyman the right which he would have under this deed of saying there ought to be a dismissal and then carrying it on appeal to the bishop. The other question of policy was this. It was suggested that there must be an appeal to the bishop from the decision of this body. Surely they were right in assuming that that was not the view of the Government.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not quite follow the reasoning of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He rightly represented the views of the Government when he said that they contemplated the managers acting as a homogeneous body, but he did not see, without more consideration than he had been able at present to give to the subject, that that principle would be interfered with by one of the body appealing upon the particular subject of the character of the religious teaching to the bishop, if such an appeal were given by the trust deed. The body of managers were to act in conformity with the trust deed. They were bound, therefore, to carry out the teaching which was prescribed in the trust deed, and if it so happened that the judge of the teaching was the bishop, there must be, there ought to be, an appeal by individual members of that body, or from anybody outside that body, to the bishop to know whether these trustees were carrying out the duties imposed upon them by the trust in accordance with the trust. He was not, therefore, at all clear that as a part of the general policy they ought to destroy the appeal to the bishop on the subject of dismissal, always allowing that that appeal was strictly confined to those particular religious questions on which the trust deed had laid it down that there should be an appeal. He must again repeat that he did not feel he should be acting fairly by the Committee if he were to permit himself, he would not say to be rushed, but to be lured, into a definite statement of policy on a subject which undoubtedly presented many points of difficulty.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANSdesired to say that the effect of giving the right of appeal here would be that, wherever

    65
    they got an agreement between the vicar and the bishop, they could dismiss the teacher, although the other five members of the management committee might be against it.
    MR. GEORGE WHITE ()pointed out that the reason why the bishop should not be the court of appeal was that the case as presented to the bishop would be not the statement of the committee of management but the statement of the clergyman or curate who himself took exception to the religious teaching of the teacher in question. He thought there was a chance of grave injustice being done in this way.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid it was quite impossible for him to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord opposite to his Amendment, and if he supported it he would necessarily be voting against his own Amendment. The Amendment as amended would stereotype and make law that which was perhaps doubtful law at the present moment. The hon. and learned Member then referred to a passage in a form of trust deed used since 1870 which, he argued, clearly gave the power of dismissal of a teacher absolutely to the bishop. That was state of things the noble Lord's Amendment was intended to perpetuate, and if the Amendment were persisted in and carried he would have to vote against his own proposal.
    MR. BRYCEinvited the First Lord of the Treasury to give the Committee some indication of his view before this matter was decided. He fully recognised the difficulty of the position, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would state whether he would oppose the Amendment of the noble Lord.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he should certainly oppose the Amendment as amended.
    LORD HUGH CECIL, in view of the Prime Minister's statement, asked leave to withdraw his Amendment to the Amendment.
    MR. BRYCEasked when the right hon. Gentleman would give an indication of his opinion. The point was, that the power given to the local education authority and the managers by Clause 8 appeared from the trust deeds to be infringed in a material respect.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Not the education authority?
    MR. BRYCE: Yes, because there is an appeal to them.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURthought there could be no difficulty on the secular side; it was only on the religious side that difficulty might arise.
    MR. BRYCEsaid the theory of the Bill was that in religious matters the managers were supreme, and also that they should act as a whole. It was clear that the trust deeds overbore that principle so far that the managers would not act as a whole, because the clergyman or his curate had a separate power of going to the bishop. Nor would they act conclusively at all, because the decision of the bishop would operated as a dismissal. Two important issues were raised—first, as to whether it could be said that the managers acted as a whole, and, secondly, whether they could be said to have the control and dismissal. Those two issues would have to be faced. The question could not be left to be settled by the law courts. It would be a reflection on the House of Commons if, after their attention had been called to it, they passes the Bill without settling the question one way or the other. The Committee ought to know at what stage the right hon. Gentleman would announce the view of the Government, and whether an opportunity would be secured to the House for dealing with the question instead of leaving it to be the sport of legal proceedings hereafter.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANSsuggested that the Amendment should be withdrawn on condition that the Government promised to deal with the matter by putting on the Paper an Amendment to be considered on the Report stage. The question ought to be settled before the Bill went to another place.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was not at all certain that an Amendment was required, but if one was necessary it ought clearly to be put down as a Government Amendment. He agreed that it would be a pity that the matter should be deferred until the Bill had left the House.
    MR. BRYCEassumed that there would be an opportunity of discussing the Amendment, which would probably be on Clause 8.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That would probably be the place for the Amendment.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONthought it would be unnecessary to go to a division, as the Government had promised to deal with the matter by an Amendment of their own, if necessary, and they could so arrange the business of the House as to ensure the Amendment being reached and discussed.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There I must interrupt the hon. Gentleman. I should greatly regret it if Clause 8 was not discussed on Report, but I am not master of the situation.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: At all events, we have the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman that on Report he will put down an Amendment dealing with this question.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If such an Amendment is required.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: And that he will do his best to have it brought to discussion?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Then I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
    MR. A. K. LOYDexplained that the word he had quoted were from the form of trust deed issued by the Board of Education 1845–1870, and he had called attention to them for the purpose of showing that there were very good words giving
    68
    the valuable power of stating a case. He would point out, however, that both in the deed which he had read, and in the form quoted by the hon. Member for Dundee, it was an optional power given to the minister or any other member of the committee to go to the bishop. Therefore, this valuable power, by which the parties to a dispute could get a first rate opinion on a matter of doctrine, was only to be put into force if desired.
    Amendment to proprosed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. REGINALD LUCAS (), in moving an Amendment of which notice had been given by the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight, said the trust deeds of a certain school required the school to be conducted by managers belonging to the denominational body which owned the school. Under the Bill there would be two managers who might belong to some other religious body. It was evident from the Measure itself that there was no desire that those outside or alien managers should have any voice in the control of the denominational or religious teaching, so that his Amendment might be looked upon merely as a drafting Amendment, and one which the Government could accept.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In line 27, at end, to insert: '(5) Where the receipt by a school, or the trustees or managers of a school, of any endowment or other benefit is, at the time of the passing of this Act, dependent on any qualification of the managers, the qualification of the foundation managers only shall, in case of question, be regarded.' "—(Mr. Reginald Lucas.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he understood his hon. friend's desire to be that, where an endowment or some other benefit came to a school, so long as the managers were of a particular denomination, that school should not be deprived of that benefit, if the foundation managers were of the necessary denomination, by reason of the fact that the representative of the local authority, or the minor local authority was a

    69
    Nonconformist, or of some other religious denomination ther than that to which the benefit applied. On behalf of the Government he was prepared to accept the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    (5.28.) Question put, "That the Clause as amended, be added to the Bill."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 225; Noes, 100. (Division List No. 563.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Faber, Edmund, B.(Hants, W.)

    Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Macartney, RtHnW. G. Ellison

    Anson, Sir william Reynell

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Maclver, David (Liver pool)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Finch, George H.

    Maconachie, A. W.

    Arrol, Sir William

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Fisher, William Haves

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Fison, Frederick William

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Malcolm, lan

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch r

    Flower, Ernest

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Forster, Hentry William

    Maxwell, RtHnSirHE.(Wigt'n

    Balfour, Rt. HnGeraldW(Leeds

    Gardner, Ernest

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Garfit, William

    Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir FrederickG.

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H.(CityofLond.

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Gibbs. Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

    More. Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Bentinck, Lord Hentry C.

    Gore, HnG. R. COrmsby-(Salop

    Morgan, DavidJ(Walthamstow

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Bignold, Arthur

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Bigwood, James

    Graham, Hentry Robert

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Blundell, Colonel Hentry

    Greene, Sir EW(B'rySEdm'nds

    Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute

    Bond, Edward

    Greene, Hentry D.(Shrewsbury

    Murray, CharlesJ. (Coventry)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

    Grenfell, William Hentry

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Groves, James Grimble

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Parker, Ebenezer

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

    Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.)

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Peel, HnWm. Robert Wellesley

    Bull, William James

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Butcher, John George

    Helder, Augustus

    Percy, Earl

    Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A (Glasgow

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

    Hobhouse, Hentry(Somerset, E.)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Chamberlain, RtHonJA(Wore.

    Horner, Frederick William

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Chapman, Edward

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Purvis, Robert

    Charrington, Spencer

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Pym, C. Guy

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Hozier, Hon. James HentryCecil

    Randles, John S.

    Cochrane, Hon. ThomasH. A. E.

    Hunson, George Bickersteth

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Coddington, Sir William

    Jebb, Sir Richara Claverhouse

    Ratcliff, R. F

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Rattigan, Sir William Henry

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Kemp, George

    Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Kimber, Henry

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Robinson, Brooke

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Rolleston, Sir John F L.

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Cust, Henry John C.

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Dalrymple Sir Charles

    Lawson, John Grant

    Royds Clement Molynenx

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Lecky, RtHon. William Edw. H.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Denny, Colonel

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos Myles

    Disraeli, Coningshy Ralph

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. a. Akers-

    Long, Rt. Hon. Walter(Bristol, s

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Doxford, SirWilliam Theodore

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H.(Renfrew)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Lowe, Francis William

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

    Smith. HC(North'mb. Tyneside

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Loyd, Archie Kirman

    Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks.)

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)

    Spear, John Ward

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Wilson-Todd. Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwhich)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset

    Valentia Viscount

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Vincent, Col. SirCEH. (Sheflied

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Stewart, Sir MarkJ. M 'Taggart

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Wylie, Alexander

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

    Wyndham, Rt. hon. George

    Stock, James Henry

    Wanklyn, James Leslie

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Younger, William

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Talbot, RtHnJ. G. (Oxf'rd Univ.

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxeth)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Sir Alexander Acland

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    NOES

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Rigg, Richard

    Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

    Allen, CharlesP. (Gloue.,Stroud)

    Grant, Corrie

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Shackleton, David James

    Bell, Richard

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Brigg, John

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Spencer, RtHn. C. R. (Northants

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Bryee, Rt. Hon. James

    Lambert, George

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Burns, John

    Langley, Batty

    Tennant, Harold John

    Burt, Thomas

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Thomas, Abel (Cermarthen, E.

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Leng, Sir John

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Caldwell, James

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Cameron, Robert

    Lloyd-George, David

    Toulmin, George

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Logan, John William

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Causton, Richard knight

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Wallace, Robert

    Channing, Francis Allston

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Markham, Archur Basil

    Wason, Eugene

    Cremer, William Randal

    Mellor, Rt, Hon, John William

    Weir, James Galloway

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

    Newnes, Sir George

    White, Luke (York, W. R.)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Palmer, SirCharlesM. (Durham)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Dunn, Sir William

    Partington, Oswald

    Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

    Ellis, John Edward

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

    Emmott, Alfred

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Evans, SirFrancisH(Maidstone)

    Philipps, john Wynford

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Price, Robert John

    Fenwick, Charles

    Priestley, Arthur

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries

    Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Mr. William M'Arthur.

    *(5.38.) SIR WILLIAM ANSON: The new Clause which I have now to propose gives to the local authority power to continue the charging of fees in respect of a public elementary school not provided by the local education authority, and the local authority will have power to apportion the school fees between itself and the managers. It will be one of the duties of the local education authority to provide free places when required for the children of the population of those areas, but for various reason and in various places, and, to a considerable extent, fees have been charged and are being charged at the present time. They are charged for
    72
    various purpose; in some place to raise the quality of the teaching, for the provision of apparatus and other purpose, in other places, especially in poorer localities where there are very often no subscribers, and where the people are willing to contribute to the maintenance of the school. The new clause which is down on the Paper in my name will enable this payment of fees to go on if the local authority thinks it is desirable that they should continue to be charged. this new Clause, however, leaves it very optional, because, in the first place, free places are to be provided in every area, and no one need pay the fees unless they choose.

    73
    In the next place, the local authority need not allow fees to be charged, but if it does allow them to be charged, they may be apportioned between the managers and the local authority. The local authority may think it desirable, in the interests of the area, that the managers should continue the fees, but if it does not think so, the result may be that the schools may cases to be non-provided schools and become provided schools, and be thrown wholly upon the rates. This may be a matter for the local authority to consider, and if it thinks it is desirable to do so, it may withdraw the right to charge fees altogether. This Clause leaves it optional to the local authority, and it may be very desirable during the period of transition that fees should continue to be charged. The voluntary schools will no longer receive the Parliamentary grants to deal with at their own discretion, but they will simply be the recipients of such money as the local authority thinks fit to give them, and will have to maintain the fabric outside and in with money provided from other sources. This will ease of the situation to the new schools which will come under the new regime, and I think it will be for the advantage of the local authority that is should have option which my new Clause provides.
    New Clause—
    "To insert as a new Clause, after Clause 10:—'Where before the passing of this Act fees have been charged in any public elementary school not provided by the local education authority, that authority shall, while they continue to charge fees in respect of that school, pay such proportion of those fees as may be agreed upon, or, in default of agreement, determined by the Board of Education, to the managers.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
    Brought up and read the first time.
    Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
    MR. BRYCEsaid he could not see upon what ground the Government justified this proposal that voluntary schools should have these funds from the ratepayers in addition to the funds they would get from the letting of the school-house and the endowments. This appeared to him to be an entire departure from what they understood to be the general terms upon which the Bill was brought in, namely, that the
    74
    cost of repairs should be defrayed by the managers. He should like to know from the Secretary to the Board of Education whether this money from the fees would go to the repairs.
    DR. MACNAMARAsaid he had no objection to a local authority taking fees if it thought fit, but what he did very strongly object to was that the local authority should be compelled to hand over a portion of those fees to the managers of the schools. He did not know whether he might be permitted to call this a cool proposal, because that might irritate the Prime Minister. If he spoke his mind about this Clause he should be compelled to call it a very impudent proposal. They found a new proposal introduced every day to enable the Church of England to shake off the obligations it had undertaken at the commencement of this controversy. It was said that this was to "case off" the obligation to keep up the fabric of the schools out of voluntary contributions. [Laughter.] That seemed to amuse the Prime Minister. The local authorities were to hand over a portion of the fees paid by the parents, and if they did not hand over enough the Board of Education was to be called in to determine the question in dispute. What were the fees? They were contributions from the parish in aid of the maintenance of education, and had been so from the beginning. The Under Secretary must be aware that when the Education Act of 1891 was passed, many managers took the 10s. grant, in some cases to wipe out fees altogether, and then turned round and asked the parents to continue them by way of voluntary contributions. What did the hon. Baronet the Member for Cambridge University at once say? He sent out a circular to the managers stating that they must not in any way collect money from the parents as voluntary contributions in respect of the fees which had hitherto been paid. What fees had been paid had been paid for the purpose of relieving the locality from the necessity of a School Board rate. The hon. Member instanced Stockport, where there was no local rate for school purposes, and where the parents were charged 6s. 8d. per child for fees. It raised over and above the 6s. 8d. per child for fees, 1s. 4d. per child by way of voluntary contribution. Portsmouth, on the other hand,

    75
    had a school rate which amounted to 14s. 9d. per child, but there were no school fees. Where there was a rate fees were non-existent or very small. Now all those localities were going to pay rates, and the parents who were to be rated were to be called upon to pay fees. At any rate they should not be called upon to pay over a portion of the fees to the managers of the voluntary schools for the purpose of meeting the obligation originally put upon them to maintain the fabric. The Bishop of London had said that the keeping up of the fabric was the weak spot in the bargain. He would quote what the Parliamentary Secretary said on the 7th of May:—
    "The voluntary schools are there, and they can only pass away at a great expense to the community, and by giving a great shock to the religious feelings of many. Their maintenance becomes simply a question of Terms, and the question is whether the terms offered by this Bill are fair. Are the terms fair?"
    And then he went on to answer that to his own satisfaction. If that did not suggest a bargain, then he did not know the meaning of the English language. What were the terms of that bargain? It was about time that they were examining them, having regard to the way in which on one side they were being whittled away. In 14,000 out of 20,000 schools they were to have the privilege of having denominational teaching thrown upon the public funds entirely, and so far as the rate was concerned—a thing entirely novel in the educational history of this country—the public was to find eleven-twelfths of the money required. The public was to hand over 14,000 out of 20,000 headmasters to be subjected to a denominational test. These denominationalists were to have the full use of the buildings on Saturday and Sunday and four nights a week for their own purposes, and the Church was to keep up the fabric. He thought that was a very fair statement of the bargain. He protested that ever since this bargain was struck, the Church had been repenting of the part she entered into. Every day revealed some Amendment on the Paper, showing that the Church desired to whittle away some part of the obligation solemnly entered into as far back as 1895, when the Prime Minister received a deputation from the Archbishop's Committee. A great deal of this Bill found its origin then. Last Tuesday the
    76
    Prime Minister submitted a Clause under which it would be possible to divert the operation of the endowments.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There is no question of diversion.
    DR. MACNAMARAsaid that matter was debated last Tuesday and he did not mean to go into it now. The Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Education had told the Committee that educational endowments of a general character could be diverted to the upkeep of the fabric. He did not think that specific statement could be denied. That was a pull of £150,000 to begin with. He found that there were 8,500 teachers' residences, and he estimated the average rental at £5, which he thought was a moderate estimate. That would give the Church a pull of £40,000. Then the fees in the non-provided schools represented £199,000, and it should be observed that some of these fees were paid on behalf of poor law children living in the workhouse. In addition to that, the Board of Education had this year decided that fees should be obligatory in night schools, upsetting the wise policy of wiping out fees in these schools. These various items made up a sum of £500,000 on which the Church would have a considerable pull under the Bill. It was a little mean and shabby to drive this hard bargain with the public in respect of the Church's obligations. He confessed that he did not think the Church was doing itself very much good by this daughter-of-the-horse-leech pestering of the Government to find a few more pence. He commiserated the Prime Minister on the hard taskmaster he had behind him. What would be the result? The great bulk of the voluntary subscriptions which were now raised would be safely put aside for a building fund to provide new denominational schools, which was easily possible under the ingenious accommodation schemes of the Bill. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] That he believed to be the purport of the Bill, and he was entitled to state his opinion. What would the local authorities do if they had their chance? Here he believed the Church would over-reach itself, if the Bill had not been ingeniously

    77
    changed within the last two or three weeks. The local authority would have been entitled to say to the managers: "Go away, we will not deal with you, but build a school of our own." But they could not do that now. The dice were loaded against the local authority. The local authority would then say: "We will not haggle in the old way. Things have circled round. We considered it a fair thing that the fees should have been given in relief of the rates and obligations of an obscure little parish, with its own little school building. But we are obliged to thrust the obligation on your parish to build its own school out of its own small rate." Could it be wondered at if, in these circumstances, the local authority were compelled to pocket their irritation, and accept the denominational school? If the Courts were straight forward, one result would be that the voluntary schools would disappear. The Courts, however, would not deal with the managers in that way; and the Bill was ingeniously devised to avoid that contingency. He sincerely hoped that he was not a true prophet, and that the Church would over-reach itself, and that they would saddle a small parish with the capital charge of another building. He did not know which he was most amazed at —the cupidity of the Church, or the pusillanimity of the Government, which, step by step, during the last few weeks had whittled down the obligations of the rich Church of England.
    *(6.8.) SIR JAMES FERGUSSON ()said he had not troubled the Committee much on this Bill, but he could not for bear saying a few words in answer to the speech of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, part of which had taken him by surprise. He had always endeavoured to put the best construction on the motives of Gentlemen who differed from him. The hon. Gentleman had sometimes in debate adopted a judicial tone in moderate language, and with a fair interpretation of the opinions from which he differed; but on the present occasion he had used the most extravagant language. A few of his phrases were: "Audacious proposal," "cupidity," "the horse-leech," "loaded dice." He could only attribute such
    78
    language to sectarian animosity. The hon. Member and his friends would like to strip the voluntary schools of every possible mean: of support, so that they might fall helpless victims into the hands of those who wished to sweep them away, because they regarded religious education as an evil. [Cries of "Oh, oh!'] The hon. Member who attempted to argue this point against the Government took the narrowest possible view of the case. He said that the lavying of fees was to obviate the necessity of rates.
    Dr. MACNAMARA: No, I said that would be the effect.
    *SIR JAMES FERGUSSON: Well, that would be the effect. The narrowest and most confined view could apply only where there was no School Board. In the constituency with which he had to do, the majority of the parents of the children preferred such an education as was given in the voluntary schools. There they found voluntary schools in which the parents were paying fees for their children, although there were board schools not more than 200 or 300 yards off. The language of the hon. Gentleman was perfectly inapplicable to such cases. It should be remembered that those who subscribed to the voluntary schools had to pay the rates all the same. It was well-known that in Lancashire a much larger number of children were educated in voluntary schools than in any other part of England. What was the proposal which the hon. Gentleman said was so audacious? It was that the fees paid by the parent; should be given towards the up-keep of these schools. Why should part of the fees, which parents voluntarily paid, not be given back towards the up-keep of these schools? The hon. Gentleman had lost sight of the case of London, where the parents sometimes paid fees. For his part he should say that this was a most modest proposal. They had heard a great deal about the refusal of the Church party and Church managers to fulfil their obligations, and the bargain which they were supposed to have made. Well, the managers

    79
    must have some sort of revenue in order to maintain their schools. He was acquainted with many schools where the clergy had the greatest difficulty in keeping them going, and where they could hardly do so without the fees. He had a list of thirty schools in Manchester, and twelve in Salford, where the fees were greatly in excess of the voluntary subscriptions and if those fees were to be entirely alienated from the purpose for which they were paid, it was evident that the funds available would fall short of the requirements, and that would be a capital means of starving the schools into submission.
    DR. MACNAMARA: They will come on the rates.
    *SIR JAMES FERGUSSONsaid that the parents had paid their rates all these years, whether they sent their children to the board schools or not, and it was only a matter of justice that at least half the fees should be handed over to the managers of the voluntary schools. He was not one of those who said that religious education was an evil per se, and he desired to see it maintained.
    MR. MIDDLEMORE ()said he wanted to say two or three words in regard to the new Clause, which he had only seen that morning, and which he confessed took him very much by surprise. The House, and the country, distinctly understood that the subscribers to the voluntary schools were going to maintain the fabric of the schools. The Prime Minister had told them so, and the Bill had also told them so, in as plain language as possible. But now it appeared that the money for the purpose was, to a large extent, to be supplied to the subscribers and the managers, and in proportion as the money was provided from other sources, the subscribers and the managers would not have to maintain the fabric of the schools. In that respect, the country and the House had certainly been led astray. From his point of view he thought the Church herself would suffer extremely from that form of sharp practice. He thought the conscience of the country would be pricked. This
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    Amendment was a very serious thing, and the conscience of the man in the street would show itself more sensitive than the conscience of the representatives of national affairs. Did the Church want it? Had she asked for it? Would she be content to stoop so low as to receive it? He wanted someone who held the honour of the Church dear to rise up and denounce this proposal as something unclean. He had no objection whatever to the Church receiving this money, or ten times the amount, provided she could receive it with clean hands, but he had the greatest objection to her receiving any money illicitly—which was the result of a broken understanding. The understanding was as clear as possible when the Bill was introduced. It was that the fabrics were not to be maintained in the way in which they had been under this Bill. He thought it was a serious thing for any Church, and the national Church worst of all, in any way to play fast and loose with the nation. If this Clause was passed it would be a blot on the fair fame of the Church of England, and a stigma on the divine cause of which she was the exponent, and it would be remembered against her; it might be remembered some time hence, when the question of disestablishment came up for discussion. On the lowest ground, upon the most gross ground, upon the most gross ground that could be put forward—self interest—he did not think the Church could afford to receive it. It would injure her temporality and strong men who were the and say that they did not wish to have anything to do with this Clause. At any rate he felt very strongly that the Church herself ought to have time to consider whether, upon moral grounds, she should accept, or (as he thought) should reject this offer.
    MR. PLATT-HIGGINS ()said he was disposed to think the hon. Member who had just sat down was not very well informed upon this question. He would give the Committee some information as to the relative cost of buildings and the relative cost of maintenance. It was the custom in this Committee to treat maintenance as if

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    it were all important and the buildings as nothing of any consequence. In the area of the School Board of Salford, which embraced 14,000 children, the teachers salaries and appliances amounted to £16,000 a year, the interest on loans for buildings amounted to £11,000. Those figures were very different to the figures supplied by the hon. Member for North Camberwell.
    DR. MACNAMARA: What is the cost of the up-keep of the fabric?
    MR. PLATT-HIGGINS: The use of these buildings, which cost £10,000 a year, would be given for nothing. Then there was the questions of repairs; what he understood was that the amount to be paid for repairs was the amount to be paid for repairs was the amount previously paid by the managers for repairs. The portion set aside for repairs necessitated by the use of the school for two hours on a Sunday as a Sunday school they did not ask the Government to pay, but they did ask that the Church should be put on the same footing as the Nonconformists. The Nonconformists were put in at a certain rate, and the Church asked that she should be put in at the same rate for repairs. The wear and tear of a school used for two hours on a Sunday was very different to the wear and tear of the school for five hours a day all the week. All that they asked was that the local authority should pay the tenants' repairs and the Church the Sunday school repairs. The people who paid a penny a week in the shape of a school fee had been referred to. The hon. Gentleman might laugh and sneer, but he thought those people who paid a penny a week in order that their children should be taught in a Church of England school were entitled to better treatment than they had received up to now. With regard to endowments, he had looked through the list, and found that out of forty-five schools they had only two endowments, which only amounted to £30 a year, and there were no teachers' houses.
    (6.25.) MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the hon. Member who had just spoken had told the Committee it was not honourable on their part to sneer at the parents who
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    gave their penny a week by way of fees for their children's education, and that they were entitled to respect. He (Mr. Lloyd-George) on the previous day had proposed that the parents should not only get respect but a voice in the management. That was a most substantial token of respect, and not mere lip respect, across the floor of the House. And his recollection was that the hon. Member who now denounced them for their disrespect for the penny-a-week parent voted against that proposal.
    MR. PLATT-HIGGINS: He must necessarily have a vote.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that that was not his proposal. His proposal was that a voice should be given to a parent who sent his child to a school. That was not the only case in which the hon. Gentleman had shown his respect for the penny-a-week gentlemen. On every occasion when they asked for more control for the parent, he was found in the lobby voting it down. Whenever they asked for a voice to be given to the parent, the hon. Member said "Oh no, we prefer that other people should speak for him." The hon. Member said something about Salford. If he made such mistakes as he had in the figures with regard to that town, what mistake would he not make with regard to the rest of the country? He had said that the cost of repairs there was £11,000.
    MR. PLATT-HIGGINSsaid the School Board had borrowed certain sums to build schools, and those sums amounted to £11,000 in the year.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought the hon. Member did not understand the figures he was quoting, or he did not understand this Clause. In the sum he had quoted they had the loan interest and repayment of capital as well. All this Clause dealt with was the cost of repairs. The hon. Gentleman had thrown a very curious sidelight upon the denominational position. He had pointed out that the wear and tear of the schools on Sunday was as nothing to the wear and tear of schools on week days, when for five hours a day there were three or four times as many children in them as there were on Sunday. That supported the contention which the Opposition had

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    always pressed, that these were not denominational schools at all; that they were State Schools to which children of other denominations went, the control of which was in the hands of a minority in the locality. The hon. baronet the Secretary to the Board of Education asked as to the poor districts where there were no subscriptions and where the fees paid by the parents represented the subscriptions. In that case the parent was a subscriber, and he asked again, if the parents represented the subscribers of the district and were in fact the subscribers of the district, why should they be deprived of the right which every other subscriber had got of electing the managers. The Government could not have it both ways; if they said the parent in this case was a subscriber, they could not say "He shall have none of the privileges that other subscribers have, he shall only bear the burden." He congratulated the hon. Member for North Camberwell upon his pointing out the results which were being obtained by means of the guillotine Resolution. The Bill was being changed without any opportunity being given to discuss it. He was amused to hear the hon. Baronet the Member for one of the Divisions of Manchester denounce his hon. friend the Member for North Camberwall as a narrow sectarian bigot. He had never been able to discover what his hon. friend's convictions were, though he believed he was a manager of a voluntary school in conjunction with the Archbishop of Canterbury. If that was narrow sectarianism, it was the narrow sectarianism of the hon. Baronet's own faith. The whole thing was unfair to the country, and it was very unfair to the Committee that a Bill should be brought in, that the Committee should discuss it for weeks and weeks, that a Resolution should then be tabled which made discussion impossible, and that then Amendments should be introduced by the Government which changed the whole character of the Bill. After all, discussion, thorough discussion, and even the consumption of time, was the most potent weapon the Opposition possessed, and once deprived of that weapon they were powerless. When the Prime Minister went to the country in the recess he foreshadowed Amendments to
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    strengthen control, but never said a word about giving endowments to the repair of the fabrics, and above all he never said a word about establishing convent schools and withdrawing them from the control of the authority. This was done by the next Clause to be discussed, a Clause only put on the Paper a few hours previously. During the recess there had been a free and open discussion. Meetings were held. The Prime Minister consulted his constituents at Manchester, and the Colonial Secretary consulted his, under lock and key, at Birmingham, and the result of those consultations was that promises were made to strengthen the control. But the bishops got frightened, and assembled in their multitudes, with their friends; they flourished their croziers at the Government and flung Kenyon-Slaney at the head of the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister got unnerved. He congratulated the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, who need not look so innocent, upon the way in which he had done it, for he was at the bottom of the whole conspiracy. The noble Lord did not look the part, but what had he done? He had denounced the Prime Minister for over-throwing the trusts, and had attacked him for having accepted the Kenyon Slaney Amendment. What was it all done for? It was done to keep the Prime Minister up to the mark. It was part of the Albert Hall business from start to finish. What was given away at Birmingham and Manchester was taken back at Albert Hall. The Bill had been completely changed. His hon. friend the Member for North Camberwell had been too moderate. It was absurd to say that £5 was even an adequate ground rent, as ground rents now were, for a teacher's house, let alone an adequate rent. He knew some of these teachers' houses, and very excellent houses they were. He did not believe they would get any subscriptions after the Bill was passed. The £120,000 for endowments, the £200,000 for fees, the £170,000 for rent of the school houses, if the rackrent was charged—£590,000 a year altogether—would be handed over to the Church to pay for the repairs. The usual charge for the repairs of a building was 10 per cent. Even if it was put at 20 per cent., the rate at which the

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    Bishop of London himself put it, only £150,000 a year would be required for repairs, yet this was the bargain! As the matter stood now this was the latest edition of the bargain with regard to which the other party had not been consulted. £500,000 was given to the Church towards repairs, which cost only £150,000, so that £350,000 a year out of the rate imposed to maintain the education of the country was to be handed over to the richest Church in the world. And taking into consideration the fact that the country had never been consulted in the matter, this was nothing less than a fraud upon the electors of the country.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid the action of the Government in putting down these Clauses after the guillotine Resolution had been passed was an action to which the Committee ought not to be subjected. To all intents and purposes by this Clause they were making a fresh endowment of the Church. The Clause provided that the local authority might continue to exact fees where fees were now paid, which would be handed over to the managers, who would, of course, apply the money to what the bishops called the "parochial purposes." Where had the principle of "rent free" gone to? So far, the managers of the voluntary schools had the whip hand. They could say to the local authority, "Unless you continue to charge fees and allow us so much out of them, we will throw the cost of this school upon the parish." This Clause was a compulsory power to extract fees from the parents in the first place, and from the local authority in the second. The Government had gone back, under pressure, on the understanding on which they introduced the Bill, and on which they presented it to the country. What they gave on the one hand they had taken back with the other. The hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Board said this Clause was introduced "to ease the situation." What was the situation that required easing in this indirect manner? It was a situation the hon. Baronet had previously described. He had said the managers should be assisted, because the rich subscribers would not subscribe sufficiently. The hollowness and the sham of all the talk of the desire of
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    the parents had now come to an end. The system of the Government was assuming a character suitable to the title of the National Society for the Education of the Children of the Poor in the Principles of the Church of England. That was at the bottom of the whole business. The words of the hon. Member for North Camberwell were not in any way too strong for this proposal. It was outrageous that by a side wind they should be asked to leave these local authorities in many cases with no option but that of imposing a heavy rate for building on a small parish ill able to bear it or of compelling parents to pay fees in respect of these schools, such fees being handed over to the managers without a word as to the purpose for which they were to be used. In addition to the great relief from subscriptions given by this Bill, amounting to £800,000 a year, the chief managers were to have these fees, and yet the Church was not satisfied. The cry was "More, more, more." He was quite sure that the result would be to damage that Church which proudly called herself the Church of England—the national Church—but which represented not one-half of the nation. The avarice, the grasping nature of the claims which the Church had put forward, and which had been pressed upon the Government, would do that Church more harm than it had suffered in any of the controversies of the last hundred years.
    *MR. BOND ()believed that the violent language which had been used with regard to the Clause would turn out in the long run to be "much ado about nothing." He was pretty confident that the cases would be few, if any such cases there were, where the local authority, when in working order, would continue to charge fees even in schools where it had been the practice to charge them hitherto and where the fees had been willingly and voluntarily paid. If fees were charged it would not be in the rural schools, because fees were not charged in these schools to any great extent. But fees were charged in Church of England schools in very poor districts, where there were no rich subscribers and where the payments that had to be met by the managers had to be met, if at all, by fees willingly paid by the parents. He said "willingly," because in some parishes, where there was a choice of

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    schools, parents preferred to pay the fees in order that they might send their children to a school which gave the instruction they liked. He could understand the local authority in such cases, seeing that parents in a district evidently preferred denominational teaching, saying "What are we to do?" In these particular districts managers have nothing to look to for the upkeep of the buildings but voluntary subscriptions in the shape of these fees, which parents have shown themselves willing to pay. We have such a clear manifestation of the wish of the inhabitants that respect should be paid to it, and these schools continued as voluntary schools. On the opposite side many Members tried to mislead the House by talking about the riches of the Church. They said it was the richest Church in Christendom—as if that had anything to do with the question with which the Committee were dealing. The endowments of the Church were expended upon buildings and salaries of ministers. The riches of the Church for other purposes in a particular district depended upon the riches of the Churchpeople in that district. the whole basis of his argument was that in many districts there were no rich Churchpeople. The inhabitants were all poor people who were willing to give out of their poverty in order that they might have the kind of education they desired. In such cases, if the local authority came to the conclusion that in order to gratify the desire of the inhabitants of the district it would be better that the voluntary schools should be maintained, they might in the last resort, there being no subscriptions of the ordinary kind, consent to the continuance of the fees. If they did that they could only do it with the intention that the people who used the schools, continue to contribute to their upkeep should and in such a case nothing could be fairer than that they should pay over to the managers about as much as they were in the habit of expending out of the fees up to the time that schools were taken over, for the purpose of maintaining the fabric and effecting current repairs. If he had presented the case fairly, as he had endeavoured
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    to do, where was the ground for all this violent indignation? After what he had said he hoped that even his hon. friend would feel that the Church might, without a stain on her conscience, receive such benefit as the Clause proposed to give her, and that the hon. Member for North Camberwell, whose moderation and ability in these debates he was ready to recognise, would regret, on further consideration, that he had been betrayed into unusual and unseemly violence.
    MR. CHARLES M'ARTHUR ()did not wish to associate himself with some of the language which had been used in reference to the Church of England in relation to this matter. There was no evidence to show that it emanated from, or that it was approved by the Church of England. But he did desire to associate himself with the hon. Member for North Birmingham in his arguments against the proposal, and to express his regret that such a Clause should have been put forward by the Government. An attempt had been made to excuse the proposal on the ground that it was comparatively trifling, but, in his view, the smallness of the amount was an additional reason for not accepting an unsound principle. What would the managers require this money for, except repairs or improvements? Clause 18, however, provided that the managers should, out of "funds provided by them," keep the school house in good repair, and make necessary alterations and improvements. Surely that meant out of funds provided by private sources; not out of funds provided by the school children. This stipulation was being inserted by a side wind to provide the managers with a source of revenue out of money given for educational purposes. The present proposal, as it seemed to him, undid the effect of Clause 18. He did not think it was fair, and he would vote against it.
    (7.0.) MR. BRYCEsaid he noticed that no member of the Government had risen to reply. All that had been said by the hon. Member for the Exchange Division was perfectly true. The Church of England did not desire this change. He was glad to hear the hon

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    Member for the Exchange Division and the hon. Member for North Birmingham repudiate the contention that this proposal had been demanded by the Church of England. This proposal was the work of a small section of persons who, in their passionate ardour for denominational instruction, were prepared to go to all lengths, and had unfortunately obtained the ear of the Government. He did not believe that the Church of England as a whole either desired or approved of that policy. When the Bill was first introduced the First Lord of the Treasury said that the managers of voluntary schools would be required to devote their buildings to educational purposes, to keep them in good repair, and to make all reasonable alterations and improvements. Upon every occasion when the question of denominational schools came up in June and July last for discussion, the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury said that the managers would have to pay the cost of repairs. That was constantly repeated as a serious burden upon the managers, and he believed that argument had great force at the time. Whether they called it a bargain or a concordat, this Bill had been understood as being an arrangement by which the rates were to bear the cost of maintenance of education in voluntary schools on the understanding that the managers would bear the cost of the repairs. That was the case until the House met in October last, and since then the position had entirely changed. First they had, upon the introduction of an Amendment by a private Member which was accepted by the Government, provision to give the rent of the school houses to the managers; then they had a new Clause dealing with the endowments, and now the Government were making this provision with regard to the fees. Those were three most material departures from the declarations of the First Lord of the Treasury which he made in the earlier months of the session. This proposal was now introduced on the very eve of the ending of the Committee stage. He did not desire to use any stronger language, but he thought they had a right to complain that the understanding under which the Bill was introduced in the first instance had been wholly departed
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    from, and he noticed that no defence was offered by the Government. He agreed with the hon. Members for North Birmingham and the Exchange Division of Liverpool that these changes would injure the Church of England, would be an offence to local authorities, and would certainly be a very powerful stimulus to those who desired to repeal the whole of these provisions which they believed to be unjust and oppressive.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON: As the right hon. Gentleman opposite has complained that no member of the Government has defended this modest proposal, I will do so myself. But modest and useful as I believe my proposal to be, I was fully prepared for the outbreak which has occurred on the other side. I was fully prepared for the volume of statistics with which the hon. Member for North Camberwell always illuminates his arguments. I may say, however, that I was hardly prepared for the extreme violence of the language used by the hon. Member. Such language, must however, have some opportunity for utterance, and I am not surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite are seizing the last occasion when these matters come before the House. [OPPOSITION cries of "No, no!"] Well—the last occasion this week. I think hon. Members opposite will enjoy the week-end more completely if they thoroughly relieve their minds upon these matters. Hon Gentlemen opposite have again referred to a bargain, the existence of which I need hardly say has been repudiated by the Prime Minister; and as one of the humblest members of the Government at the other end of the scale, may I equally beallowed to repudiate altogether any knowledge of a bargain. The hon. Member for North Camberwell quoted some words of mine in which I spoke of terms. It is true that I spoke of terms, but it was in this sense—that we are creating a new and double ownership of the schools. The managers are bound to provide the fabric both outside and in for the use of the local education authority for the purposes of these schools. The managers are, however, bound to give up the use of the building for three nights a week, and that was not part of the original

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    scheme. They are also bound to submit to the complete financial control of the local education authority, to the complete control of their secular instruction, and to representation on the board of management. That is what the managers have to do on their side. On the other side, the local education authority provide the salaries of the teachers, furniture, school books, and so forth. That being so, it does seem reasonable, and no departure at all from anything in the original scheme of the Bill, that the various sources of income which are actually coming to the school as a school shall, as they come in, to some extent, be divided and shared between the local education authority and the managers. These fees, it has been said, were originally paid in mitigation of the rates. If they were then, they will still be so paid, because they will continue the existence of a non-provided school, whereas provided schools are necessarily a heavier charge upon the rates of the area. These fees are paid by the parents in support of a particular school and in support of a school of a particular character to which the parents desire to send their children. Is there anything unjust if some portion of the money which the parents give towards the continued existence of a school of a particular character should be contributed to the maintenance of the fabric, outside and in, of that particular school? Really the indignation which has been expressed seems to me to have been somewhat misplaced, as also have been the unfavourable comments made upon my remarks that this arrangement of fees, at any rate for a year or so to come, would, as I described it, ease off the situation. What is the position of these non-provided schools? The first impression will be that voluntary subscriptions are no longer necessary, and they will not flow in as liberally as before. In the first instance there will be that impression, and I do anticipate an immediate falling off in this respect. Then it must be borne in mind that these schools will not be allowed to use the Parliamentary grants, and, more particularly, the aid grant, for the maintenance of their buildings. That they will no longer enjoy after this Bill comes into force, because all those
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    Parliamentary grants will go into the hands of the local education authority and will be pooled, and the managers will receive no more than is necessary for the secular instruction of the schools. And, lastly, the managers have been accustomed in many parts of the country to make something towards the upkeep of the school and its maintenance by the use of the school, either in the way of letting the building or using it for remunerative purposes of their own. In the future they will have the school taken away from them under this Bill for three evenings in the week. For these and other reasons I believe it will be good policy on the part of the local education authority to continue to allow the managers to charge fees and to share those fees, as the Clause provides. I believe the arrangement to be convenient and just, and I am prepared to defend it against the indignation to which some hon. Members have given expression.
    *MR. RUNCIMAN ()said he desired to emphasise the arguments which had been submitted by hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House. Not one substantive or adjective had been used with every syllable of which he did not agree. He spoke as one outside the Anglican communion; he spoke as a member of a body who under the Clause would receive some monetary advantage. The Wesleyan body, he believed, had never been consulted on this Clause, and if they were he fancied the proposal would be thrown back in the face of the Government with contempt. They had in their schools for years past charged fees, and their people had been prepared to pay fees because of the high standard of education they had maintained. They had been, on their part, prepared to hand over to the public authority the use of their buildings on terms laid down in the Bill without any sense of dissatisfaction, and, he believed, with a greater sense of generosity than had been shown by the Anglican communion. But when a proposal was made that the fees which they received in their schools should not be handed over to the body which was to maintain their schools, but were to be received by the private managers for their own private purposes, he believed that to be outside the under-

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    standing come to when the Bill was first introduced. No concessions could justify the addition of these words to the Bill. On the Second Reading the present Secretary to the Board of Education told them that the terms were fair. He thought they were justified in saying that the Church had gone back on its bargain. [AN HON. MEMBER: There was no bargain.] If there was no bargain what was the use of the word "terms"? Once hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House had said that it was a just proposal. If it was a perfectly just proposal, why was it not put forward before? It was not put in the Bill at first, and therefore the Bill was either badly conceived in the interests of the Church of England or the Government had this proposal up its sleeve. If the latter proposition were accepted, the denunciation of his hon. friend the Member for North Camberwell was absolutely justified. A fortnight ago the House by passing the Closure Resolutions practically gave the Government a blank cheque. The result had been that the Government had been filling up that blank cheques for large amounts ever since the Resolutions were passed. He did not wish to say a single word in denunciation of the Church of England—he had never done so in public or private—but any
    sober-minded man, whether in the Church or out of it, must see that the continued cry by the Church for more money was detrimental to the best interests of the Church.
    *MR. RANDLES ()said he did not think that Nonconformists would treat with contempt any proposal which was likely to relieve those responsible for schools of a charge which might become a serious strain on the funds of the Churches that maintained the schools. He believed that those responsible for the Wesleyan day schools did not contempate with unmixed feelings the prospect of the loss of the sum which they received in the form of rent, and which in Wesleyan schools amounted to £9,000 a year. This, together with the added cost of repairs of about £7,000 a year, would be a real difficulty. It any relief could be given from fees, where fees are charged, or other sources, he did not think a proposal of this kind would be unacceptable to them.
    (7.15.) Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 207; Noes, 116. (Division List, No.564.)
    DR. MACNAMARArose to move an Amendment to provide that fees if continued should be credited to the parish or parishes served by the school as a contribution in relief of the charge upon the rates for the purpose of elementary education. He had no objection to the local authority continuing fees, but he very strongly objected to their continuance if a proportion of the amount was to be paid to the managers of voluntary schools for various private purposes not known to him at present, except the keeping up of the fabric of the school.
    It being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening,

  EVENING SITTING.

    EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILLS.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
    New Clause (Apportionment of school fees).
    (9.0) DR. MACHAMARA. continuing his speech, said he had not objection to the continuance of fees. That was a matter for the decision of the local education authority, who would know the particular circumstances. But what he did object to very strongly was that, if fees were charged, the money should be handed over to the managers. The Bill was quite clear on this matter. Clause 8 (d) laid it down that "the managers of the school shall, out of funds provided by them, keep the school in good repair," and so on. He desired to lay every
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    possible stress on the words "out of funds provided by them." And now, under the pressure of a certain section of the Church of England, as he contended, the Government were proposing to whittle away the effect of those words. The Church of England repented of the bargain which had been made, finding it too onerous, and therefore the Government had come forward with a proposal to raid, to raid, to commandeer, the pence of the children amongst other things, in order to enable the managers to meet this obligation. The Bishop of London had said that the weak part of this bargain of the Government was the repairs. He understood now from the Secretary to the Board of Education that these voluntary subscriptions would fall off, and it was because of this that he now came forward with this new Clause.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I said that would be the first impression, and that I did anticipate an immediate falling off in voluntary subscriptions.
    DR. MACNAMARAsaid that he might take it now that one of the reasons for the introduction of this Clause was that voluntary subscriptions were going to fall off. He thought that admission gave away the case. The subscriptions would fall off, and therefore the obligation that the manager should keep the school in good repair could not be carried out. Now it was proposed to raid the pence of the children in order to meet this obligation. As a manager of a voluntary school himself, he had no hesitation in characterising that as a mean and shabby thing. It had been said that the obligation imposed upon the managers to keep the school in good repair would prove to be a great strain, and that was put forward as a reason why hon. Gentleman opposite now supported this commandeering of the pence of the children. That strain ought to have been thought of before. Why were there no Amendments put down

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    on the Government side when it was first said down that the managers of the schools should, out of funds provided by them, keep the school in good repair? Upon the discussion of Clause 8, sub-Section (d) there was a speech delivered by the hon. Member for Stretford which admirably met his view. Upon that occasion the hon. Member said—
    "He quite agreed that the question of repairs was a very important one which ought to be dealt with according to the lines laid down in the Bill."
    That was to say that the managers should, out of funds provided by them, keep the school in good repair. The hon. Member for Stretford went on to say:—
    "Here they were not dealing particularly with church schools or denominational schools, but with all the schools not provided by the local authority, many of them being schools in private hands. He admitted that there was a heavy burden cast on the owners of the schools, but according to the principles of the Bill they should bear it in return for certain advantages obtained."
    That was the speech by the hon. Member for the Stretford Division of Lancashire, who had been a very able supporter of the Government, more especially with regard to the financial part of this Bill, and he agreed that it was fair and just on the part of the Church that they should carry out this obligation. The hon. Member for Stretford further stated that:—
    "It would be a great mistake to attempt to make the burden too light and certainly nothing could be worse than the recurrence of constant friction as to repairs."
    And now he came to the Attorney General. Speaking on the 29th of October when this particular sub-Section (d) of Clause 8 was under discussion the Attorney General said:—
    "So far as repairs were concerned, both inside and out, the managers should keep the schools in a condition fit for educational purposes."
    After getting a pull on the endowments and on the teachers' houses, why did the Government now come down and commandeer the pence of the children? The other right hon. Member opposite who, with the Secretary to the Board of Education, represented the Oxford University, speaking upon the same occasion said:—
    "What he had understood was that the fabric and its repairs were to be maintained by the owners, but that all else would be left in the hands of the local authority."
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    What had the pence of the children to do with the owners? He would ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite who represented Oxford University whether he still adhered to that statement that the repairs were to be maintained by the owners. But this was not the question of owners at all. The local authority might charge fees if it liked, but they ought to stick to the original bargain, or concordat, and see that the repairs were maintained out of funds provided by the managers, or, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University said, out of the funds provided by the owners. No one could contend that the parents were the owners of these buildings. Then there was a speech made by the hon. Member for Salford, who, he thought, rather misunderstood the situation, for he spoke of voluntary contributions for keeping the schools going. As a matter of fact, the contributions for the maintenance of voluntary schools were to disappear. He was glad to say that it was not now a question of starving the schools, and no one had been more strenuous in insisting that these schools should come upon the public funds for their maintenance than himself. The possibility of starving the schools now disappeared, because they were going to put the voluntary schools of Salford on the Salford rates, and he hoped they would pay up cheerfully, and he believed it would turn out to be the best investment they had ever made. The hon. Gentleman opposite had said what a great hardship it would be to prevent the use of this money because of the poverty of the schools. He was glad to say that the schools would be beyond poverty in the future, because they would be on the rates; but the point he was now dealing with was the up-keep of the fabric out of the funds provided by the owners. The Members for Salford Division mentioned something about £11,000.
    MR. PLATT - HIGGINS: That was the expenditure for the building of board schools.
    DR. MACNAMARAsaid he was not now dealing with the board schools but with the denominational schools. This £11,000 was he sum annually expended by the School Board

    101
    of Salford as a sinking fund for the payment of interest on loans. He was not talking about these matters now, but about the up-keep of the fabric and repairs. He would take as an example the Salford voluntary schools. In the return to which the hon. Member referred, there was a statement in connection with the Salford voluntary schools which gave the amount expended up to the 31st of August, 1899, for fuel, lighting, cleaning, repairs, rent, and taxes. For all the voluntary schools in Salford for all these purposes, only one of which he was now dealing with, the whole expenditure was £8,491. If they took away the cost of fuel, lighting, cleaning, and rent, what amount would be left for repairs? Why should the Church be so anxious of its ability to meet that small item? He did not suppose that it would come to more than £1,000 a year, but surely in return for the right in Salford to have Church teaching given entirely at the public expense out of the rates and taxes, surely in return for the right to impose denominational tests upon the teachers and the right to use the Salford voluntary schools on Saturdays and Sundays for any purpose they liked and to use the public furniture free of cost, it was a very little thing to ask that they should stand by the original bargain with the managers of the schools, that out of funds provided by them they should keep the fabric in a good state of repair. He would go into one or two particulars with regard to the Salford voluntary schools. St. James' (Broughton) School, with an average attendance of 476 children, spent £86. 1s. 10d. on fuel, light, cleaning, repairs, rent and taxes. The corresponding figure for Cheetham Hill Wesleyan School, with over 300 children in average attendance, was £60 12s. 5d.; for Duke Street, Lower Broughton School, with an average attendance of 460, £86 3s. 1d.; of St. Andrew's National School, Lower Broughton, with an average attendance of 424, £58 1s. 11d. Taking even one-fourth of those amounts as being paid for repairs, could it be said that was an onerous burden in return for all the concessions that had been made. And yet this small obligation was being made. And yet this small obligation was being whittled away! They had no right to say that fees were a form of voluntary contribution; if fees were continued they should
    102
    go to the parish in relief of the local rate, as they had done in the past, and the managers should be kept to the original obligation under Clause 8 (d).
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out the words from the word 'shall,' in line 3, to end of the Clause, and insert the words 'if they think fit, abolish such school fees; but if they continue to charge fees in respect of that school, shall credit the parish or parishes served by the school with the amount of the school fees as a contribution in relief of the charge upon the rates for the purpose of Part III. of this Act.'"—(Dr. Macnamara.)
    Question proposed—"That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    MR. PLATT-HIGGINSsaid the remarks of the hon. Member for North Camberwell were rather misplaced. There were in Salford Board schools 14,000 children and in voluntary schools 21,000. To form an estimate of the value of the schools contributed by the denominations he took the figures of the Salford School Board. For 14,000 children they paid £16,000 in teachers' salaries and for appliances. Maintained at the same rate, the voluntary school expenditure would be £25,000. All the time that was given to denominational teaching was an hour weekly, equivalent to a twenty fifty part, or £1,000. That represented what the voluntary people were to receive. But what were they to give. For the building of the Board schools there was an expenditure of £11,000 a year. The voluntary schools in Salford, being half as many again as the Board schools, would therefore, on that basis, involve an expenditure of £16,000. That represented the amount given, and the return was £1,000. And yet the denominationalists were described as "Shylocks," and so forth! The circumstances did not warrant the epithets of mean and shabby. As to the repairs, the cost under the Salford School Board averaged 2s. 6d. per child. That would come to £2,500 on the number of children in the voluntary schools—not an inconsiderable sum. It would be a very difficult task to raise £100 a year in subscriptions in a poor district in Salford, where there were 800 children in the voluntary school. He therefore thought

    103
    it would be a most unjustifiable proceeding to attempt to deprive the Salford denominations of the opportunity of allocating a share of these fees.
    (9.28) MR. WHITLEYthought the First Lord of the Treasury ought clearly to understand that they on that side of the House felt very strongly the breach of the undertaking with which the Bill was introduced. It was clearly understood that the owners of voluntary schools were to keep up the fabric of the schools at their expense. The Prime Minister would recollect that he (the hon. Member) withdrew an Amendment on the question of the rent to be charged for voluntary schools, on the promise that the Government would introduce a Clause enacting that the schools should be provided rent free. He put it to the Prime Minister that it was not right or straight that a large sum should be withdrawn from one side of the account when they had settled the other side. What were these fees? They were part of the costs which had been paid by the ratepayers, and surely if the ratepayers were to be called upon to find the whole cost of maintenance, those fees ought to be credited to the ratepayers, and not to the managers. In fact, this Clause was a deliberate breach of the pledge which the Prime Minister had given. The Secretary to the Board of Education admitted the fact that this second condition of things would be final. The hon. Gentleman said that he did anticipate that the subscriptions would fall off after this Bill had passed, and he used the words, "that the managers should therefore be assisted." What did that mean? It was to ease off the situation. There were no two possible meanings to these words. The right hon. Member for North-East Manchester said that the poor managers would have nothing to fall back on except the voluntary subscriptions, but the right hon. Baronet also told the Committee that the subscriptions would fall off. This Clause was a violation of the three-times given pledge to the House, that the fees were to be returned by the managers to the local authority for the immense privileges they were getting. The Government were fixing the patronage and power to appoint in one of the leading professions of the country
    104
    on less then 60,000 civil servants. He would like to know whether that was a patronage to be measured in pounds. The fact was, that these fees would not be voluntarily paid on the part of the parents. If they were to be voluntary, why not accept the proposal of the hon. Member for North Camberwell, that if fees were charged by the local authority they ought to be credited to the rates of the parish in which the school was situated? The very fact that it was proposed that the local authority should, in the first instance, collect the fees without the parents knowing where they were going to, showed distinctly that, in this indirect way, the money would be provided for the up-keep of the non-provided schools. There was no getting out of the position that if the Government insisted on passing this Clause, they could no longer say that the managers of the voluntary schools were giving their schools rent free in return for the privileges they receive.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Gentleman had made an appeal to him on the subject of this Amendment, from which he gathered from the hon. Gentleman that he and others thought the Government had broken some promise or pledge, expressed or implied. The hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs declared that his noble friend the Member for Greenwich had made a series of attacks on the Government in order to keep them up to the mark. Well, if attacks had that effect, he must be a most up-to-the-mark person. They had heard a great deal about efficiency, and he could not imagine efficiency at a higher point if attacks from all quarters led to that most desirable result. He could assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that the Government in this matter had really not swerved from the general line of policy, on this or any other point, which was enunicated in the earlier stages of the Bill. The hon. Gentleman opposite, following the excellent example set by himself and many of his friends had spoken at great length of a bargain which he said was made on the subject of the amount of assistance to be given to voluntary schools.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid the words he used were "the understanding which was given to the House when the right hon. Gentleman introduced the Bill."
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that in his last speech the hon. Gentleman might have called it an understanding, but on previous occasions he would not deny that he talked of a bargain. A bargain was between two people or two sets of people. Between whom was this bargain made? He denied that he had been a party to any bargain. He had never made a bargain with hon. Gentlemen opposite, or with hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, with Nonconformists, with Catholics, or with any one. He had endeavoured to the best of his ability, on behalf of his colleagues, to pilot through the House an Education Bill—not a commercial transaction, but a Bill designed, he hoped successfully, to promote the great cause of education. It was not a Bill which embodied, or professed to embody. a bargain between the Government or the House and any denomination, it was a method, which they thought honourable and just, and, he hoped, not ungenerous, of dealing with the educational problem as it presented itself to them, with all the complications and difficulties incident to the long and changing history of education in this country. What was the complaint made against them in this particular instance? He would not enter into the controversy between his hon. friend the Member for Salford and the hon. Member for North Camberwell. He hoped the hon. Member for North Camberwell was right in thinking that the burden on the voluntary schools of Salford of carrying out repairs under the Bill would be small. But the controversy was not relevant to the present issue, which was whether, if the local authority permitted fees to be charged, the product of those fees should be divided between the managers of the schools and the local authority. That seemed to him to be an eminently fair arrangement, whether it was easy or difficult for the managers to carry out the repairs required of them by this Bill. It was not as if they were leaving to the managers the power of charging fees, whether the local authority liked it or not. The local authority was absolutely master of the situation— [OPPOSITION cries of "No."]— they could make every school in their area a free school if they liked, but if they permitted fees to be charged, as in many cases he hoped they would,
    106
    it was proposed that the product of those fees should be divided between themselves and the managers. He could not understand what there was intrinsically unjust in that proposal, or what foundation it gave to the charge that the Government were departing from an imaginary bargain. The hon. Gentleman said that the Prime Minister, at an earlier stage in the debate, promised that he would introduce a provision that the produce of the fees should be handed over to the local authority. He said that that promise had been broken in spirit, that if fees were charged the whole product should be given to the local authority and should not be shared by anyone else. What shadow of ground was there for the very serious charge which the hon. Gentleman—in all good faith—had brought against His Majesty's Government? Surely a more baseless accusation of breach of faith had never been hurled, to use the hon. Gentleman's own expression, across the floor of the House, for that was not the hon. Gentleman's general method. What more shadowy ground could there be for any accusation of this rather serious kind brought against a responsible Government? The Government had given a promise which was carried out to the letter. He thought it would be felt, and he hoped it would be felt, by the hon. Gentleman who, not in the heat but in the rapidity of debate, had repeated the charge, that there was no foundation for that charge. He hoped that even the Member for North Camberwell in his righteous wrath would not do anything to render the task of voluntary managers more difficult.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I am one of them.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he wondered if the hon. Member had an endowment in a teacher's house and a long list of others. He had no doubt the hon. Gentleman enjoyed them to the full, and he was sure the hon. Member would not refuse to others, including his hon. friend on the Ministerial side of the House, the advantages which he himself enjoyed.
    MR. WHITLEYsaid he wished to say a few words in reply to the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman had left out of the account one item, which showed that this was an indirect way of enabling the mangers to claim a rent for their premises. The right hon. Gentleman laid stress on the fact that the local authority might, if they thought fit, charge fees, and he led the Committee to understand that the local authority would be a free agent in the matter. Certainly, he maintained that the local authority was not a free agent, because the managers would say, "We will only allow our schools to be open if you permit us to charge fees;" and then with that they would claim half the fees and appeal to the Board of Education. He contended that he had proved his case.
    *MR. CORRIE GRANT ()said that they had to thank the Prime Minister for a phrase which would become historic in connection with this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that he was not conducting a commercial transaction, but carrying an Education Bill.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Trying to.
    *MR. CORRIE GRANT: Trying to do it with the aid of the Closure and the guillotine, and not introducing the Clauses to which they objected until after he had imposed his guillotine. He would illustrate to the Prime Minister his point from a commercial transaction in a business notoriously the lowest in this country. It was a case which actually happened in a horse transaction. A man rode up on a very high-spirited, clever horse, and offered to sell it to a man who wanted to buy it. They arranged that the price should be, say, £100. The man who was sitting on the horse said to the man on the ground, "You agree to give me £100 for the horse?" The man on the ground replied "I agree." Then the man on the horse said, "What are you going to give me for the bridle?" The man on the ground said, "When I bought the horse I thought I bought it with the bridle too." "Oh, no," said the man on the horse, "if you take the horse without the bridle you can catch it if you
    108
    can." The two then settled the price for the bridle. Then the man on the horse said, "What are you going to give me for the saddle?" And so there was another deal for the saddle. That was the way in which horse transactions were conducted, and that was the way the Government had conducted these transactions about this Bill. [Some MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh."] He was very glad to hear the interruption. It showed that the Church which ocularly had throughout these debates been sitting behind the Government, had carried into this matter the spirit of men who dealt in horses. The Prime Minister asked for proof of the bargain. Well, the original draft of the Bill, Clause 8, sub-Section (d), said—
    "The managers of the school shall, out of funds provided by them, keep the school house in good repair, and make such alterations and improvements in the buildings as may be reasonable required by the local authority."
    Was there any man in or outside that House who did not understand these words to mean that the managers themselves were to be the people to provide these funds? But when that Clause passed, what happened? First of all they had an obligatory arrangement about the rent for teachers' houses. Then there was the arrangement by which the Endowments in the parishes were taken for the benefit of the voluntary schools, and then they had this last arrangement to provide money for the managers, which, according to Clause8, they were to provide for themselves. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education repudiated that bargain.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSON: The existence of a bargain.
    *MR. CORRIE GRANT: Well, the hon. Baronet repudiated the idea of a bargain; he repudiated the idea of terms; he said nothing of the kind ever happened. The Prime Minister said the Government were trying to pass an Education Bill, not conducting a commercial transaction. But on 29th October the Attorney General said that—
    "So far as repairs were concerned, the managers would keep the schools in a condition fit for educational purposes."

    109
    The right hon. Member for Oxford University thereupon wanted to know 'what the bargain was." Why, the right hon. Gentleman was the man who first negotiated the bargain!
    MR. TALBOT (): The hon. Gentleman should give some proof of that statement. I negotiated no bargain. If I had negotiated the so called bargain I should have tried to make a better one.
    MR. CORRIE GRANT: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would not mind saving whether he was present at Convocation when the terms of the bargain were discussed?
    MR. TALBOTsaid he thought the hon. Gentleman ought to have known that he had not the honor to be a Member of Convocation. [OPPOSITION cries of "His brother."]
    *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he had thought the right hon. Gentleman was one of the persons who conducted the initial stages of the bargain. He now found he was wrong. It was not the right hon. Gentleman, but his brother; and he would be the last person to hold a man responsible for what his brother did. Then the quotation went on—
    "Mr. Talbot wanted to know what the bargain was. What he understood was that the fabric and its repairs were to be maintained by the owners, and that all else would be put on the local authority. That, however, was now to be pressed further. He was not saying he objected to that, or that it was an unfair bargain; but he wanted to know what the bargain really was."
    He thought no one but the Prime Minister, who had told them that in such matters he was a perfect child, would say that there was no arrangement or understanding or proposal, made on one side and accepted on the other, between the Church and the Government as to the terms on which the voluntary schools were to be transferred to the rates. What justified the indignation expressed on that side of the House was not merely that there had
    110
    been such an arrangement, but that, by those suddenly revealed new proposals, it was being departed from; and that denominational schools were now being put into a position which would enable them to receive contributions, not only from the rates, but also from rents and endowments and fees, and get everything they wanted without having to pay a single penny.
    MR. MALCOLM ()said he thought that, in the interests of fair debate, the hon. Gentleman should either justify or withdraw his statement. He said that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University was a party to a bargain. The right hon. Gentleman denied that, and it was also repudiated by right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench. He thought it was a most unfair observation.
    *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he did not desire to do anything unfair; but he felt that, when they appealed to their constituents, who would look at the issue from a clearer point of view, they would be able to bring home every. one of the charges they were now making. He admitted he made a mistake as to a name; but his assertion was that the main terms now contained in the Bill were the terms discussed and settled in Convocation, months before the Bill was produced.
    DR. MACNAMARAsaid that when, earlier in the debate, he referred to the expenditure for fuel, light, cleaning and repairs of two schools, an hon. Member opposite asked him if they charged any school fees. He was now able to answer the hon. Gentleman. In one school, school fees to the amount of £47 7s. 5d. were received, and in the other, £51 3s. 3d. Therefore, on the most generous estimate, the schools would have twice as much as they required for repairs.
    (10.3.) Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes 182; Noes 85. (Division List No. 565.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Fergusson. Rt Hn SirJ. (Manc'r

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A(Wore.

    Finch, George H.

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Charrington, Spencer

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Clive, Captain Perey A.

    Firbank, sir Joseph Thomas

    Arrol, Sir William

    Cochrane, Hn. Thes. H. A. E.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Atkinson, Rt Hon. John

    Coddington, Sir William

    Fison, Frederick William

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Flower, Ernest

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r)

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Forster, Henry William

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Gardner, Ernest

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

    Cranborne, Lord

    Garfit, William

    Balfour, KennethR.(Christch.)

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Godson, Sir AugustusFrederick

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Gore, HnG. R. COrmsby-(Salop)

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Cust, Henry John C.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Beresford, Lord Chas, William

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Bigwood, James

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Denny, Colonel

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Bond, Edward

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Greene, Sir EW(B'rySEdm'nds

    Bascawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Greene, W. Raymound-(Cambs.)

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Groves, James Grimble

    Brothercon, Edward Allen

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Bull, William James

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Butcher, John George

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Campbell, RtHn. J. A (Glasgow)

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Faber, Elmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

    Fellowes, Hon. AilwynEdward

    Helder, Augustus

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Morgan, DavidJ(Walth'mstow)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Smith, HC(North'mb, Tyneside)

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

    Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil

    Mowbrav, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute)

    Spear, John Ward

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Ardhur Fred

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

    Kemp, George

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Stock, James Henry

    Kenyon-Slancy, Col. W. (Salop.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Keswick, William

    Peel, Hon. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Percy, Earl

    Talbot, RtHn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.)

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Lawson, John Grant

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Valentia, Viscount

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Vincent, Col. SirCEH(Sheffield)

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Vincent, Sir Edgar(Exeter)

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Purvis, Robert

    Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir WilliamH.

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Pym, C. Guy

    Wanklyn, James Leslie

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S)

    Randles, John S.

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Lowe, Francis William

    Rankin, Sir James

    Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton)

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Rattigan, R. F.

    Whitely, H(Ashton-und. Lyne)

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Rattigan, Sir William Henry

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

    Reid. James (Greenock)

    Willoughby de Ersby, Lord

    Lyttelton. Hon. Alfred

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Macartney, RtHn. W. G Ellison

    Ritchie. Rt. Gn. Chas. Thomson

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks,)

    Macdona, John Cummung

    Roberts, Samuel (Shellield)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Robinson. Brooke

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Wylie, Alexander

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Malcolm, lan

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Younger, William

    Maxwell, RtHnSir H E(Wigt'n)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stoford-

    Milner. Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

    Sadler. Col. Samuel Alexander

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Montagu. G. (Huntingdon)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Sir Alexander AclandHood and and Mr. Anstruther.

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    NOES

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Dunn, Sir William

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

    Edwards, Frank

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Allen, Charles P. (Gloue, Stroud)

    Ellis, John Edward

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Emmott, Alfred

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone)

    Middlemore, John Thr'gmorton

    Bell, Richard

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Bignold, Arthur

    Fenwick, Charles

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Newnes, Sir George

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Norman, Henry

    Brigg, John

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Grant, Corrie

    Nussey, Thomas Willians

    Brown, George M.(Edinburgh)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Palmer, Sir CharlesM.(Durham)

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Hayne, Rt. Hoa. Charles Seale-

    Partington, Oswald

    Burns, John

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n)

    Burt, Thomas

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Pease, J. A. (Saffrom Walden)

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Caldwell, James

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Price, Robert John

    Cameron, Robert

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Priestley, Arthur

    Campbell-Bannermam, Sir H.

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lambert, George

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lambton, Hon. Fredreick Wm.

    Rigg, Richard

    Chamming, Francis Allston

    Langley, Batty

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eilion)

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

    Craig, Rober Hunter

    Leese, SirJosephF. (Accrington)

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Cremer, William Randal

    Leng, Sir John

    Runciman, Walter

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Levy, Maurice

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Sandys, Lt.-Col, Thos. Myles

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Lloyd-George, David

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Logan, John William

    Shackleton, David James

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Lough, Thomas

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    96

    97

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Toulmin, Geoge

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.)

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

    Spencer, Rt. HnC. R.(Northants)

    Wason, Eugene

    Woodhouse, Sir J T(Huddersf'd)

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Weir, James Gallowy

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Tennant, Harold John

    White, George(Norfolk)

    Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.)

    White, Luke(York, E. R.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

    Whiteley, George(York. W. R.)

    Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

    Thomas, F. W. (Yorks, W. R.)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Allhusen Augustus Henry Eden

    Fison, Frederick William

    Percy, Earl

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Arkwight, John Stanhope

    Flower, Eruest

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Arnold-Forste, Hugh O.

    Forster, Henry William

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Arrol, Sir William

    Gardner, Ernest

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Garfit, William

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Godson. Sir Augustus Frederick

    Pryee-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.)

    Purvis, Robert

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Randles, John S.

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Chrisch.)

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Greene, SirE. W (B'ryS. Edm'nds)

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Ridley, Hon. M. W(Staly bridge

    Bentinek, Lord Henry C.

    Hamilton, RtHn Lord G(Midd'x)

    Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Bignold, Arthur

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

    Bigwood, James

    Hardy, Laurence(Kent Ashford)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Ropner, Col. Robert

    Bond, Edward

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Helder, Angustus

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Bull, William James

    HopeJ. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Butcher John Geroge

    Houldsworth, SirWm. Henry

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Smith, Abel H. (Herford, East)

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Hudson, George Bickerstcth

    Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire)

    Jebb, Sir Ricbard Claverhouse

    Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Stanly, Lord (Lames.)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Stewart, SirMark J. M. Taggart

    Chapman, Edward

    Kenyon Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Stock, James Henry

    Charrington, Spence

    Kenyon Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Keswick, William

    Stroyan, John

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Kimber, Henry

    Strutt, Hon, Charles Hedley

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ.)

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Cook. Sir Frederick Lucass

    Lawson, John Grant

    Tully, Jasper

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Valentia, Viscount

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Leigh-Bennert, Henry Currie

    Vincent, SirEdgar (Exeter)

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Wanklyn, James Leslie

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Long, Col. Charles W. (evesham

    Welby. Lt-ColA. C. E. (Taunton

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund Lyne)

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Low, Francis William

    Williams Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Denny, Colonel

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Liwestift)

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Lucas, Reginald J(Portsmouth)

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Dickson, Pounder, Sir John P.

    Macatney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Wodehouse, RtHn. E. R. (Bath)

    Disraeli. Coningsby Ralph

    Maclver, David(Liverpool)

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Doughty, Geroge

    M'Killop, James(Strilingshire)

    Wylie, Alexander

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A .Akers-

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Maleolm, Ian

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Dyke, Rt. Hon, Sir Wm. Hart

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Doughlas

    Morrell, George Herbert

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Fieden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Murray, Rt. Hn. A Grabam(Bute

    Finch, George H.

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Allen, CharlesP.(Gloue.,Stroud)

    Bell, Richard

    Allan, Sir William(Gateshead)

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    112

    113

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Brigg, John

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Brown, George M.(Edinbugh)

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Shackleton, David James

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Burns, John

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Burt, Thomas

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Spear, John Ward

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Lambert, George

    Spencer, Rt Hn C. R.(Northants)

    Caldwell, James

    Lambton. Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Tennant, Harold John

    Cameron, Robert

    Langley, Batty

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Leng, Sir John

    Thomson, F. W. (York. W. R.)

    Cawley Frederick

    Levy, Maurice

    Trevelyan. Charles Philips

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Lloyd-George, David

    Weir, James Galloway

    Cremer, William Randal

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    White, George (Nolfolk)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

    White, Luke (York. E. R)

    Davies, M. Vanghan (Cardigan)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Whitley, J. H. (Halitax)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Edwards, Frank

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Camarthen)

    Wilson. Fred. W. (Nolfolk, Mid.)

    Evans, Sir Francis H. Maidstone

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Fenwick, Charles

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Pemberton. John S. G.

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Philips, John Wynford

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Gladstone Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn

    Price, Robert John

    Dr. Macnamara and Mr. Toulmin.

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Rigg, Richard

    (10.14.) Question put, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 196; Noes, 88. (Division List No.566.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Finch, George H.

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Chapman, Edward

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Charrington, Spencer

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Arrol, Sir William Reynell

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Flower, Ernest

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Forster, Henry William

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Gardner, Ernest

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Garfit, William

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Godson, Sir AugustusFrederick

    Balfour, Rt Hon. A. J.(Manch'r)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line-)

    Balfour, RtHn. Gerald W(Leeds)

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Greene, SirEW(B'ry SEdm'nds)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Bignold, Arthur

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Hamilton, RtHnLordG(M'dd'x)

    Bigwood, James

    Denny, Colonel

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. RobertWm.

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd)

    Bond, Edward

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Hatch, ErnestFrederickGeorge

    Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

    Doughty, George

    Helder, Augnstus

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Bull, William James

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

    Butcher, John George

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightisde

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Fergusson, Rt Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh're)

    Fielden, Edward brocklehurst

    Hozier, Hon. JamesHenry Cecil

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Stanley, EdwardJas.(Somerset)

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Grav C.

    Stanley, Lord (Lances.)

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Murray, Rt. HnAGraham(Bute)

    Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

    Murrary, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Stock, James Henry

    Kanyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Keswick, William

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Stroyan, John

    Kimber, Henry

    Peel, HnWm. RobertWelle-ley

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Percy, Earl

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Knowles, Lees

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'dUniv.)

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Lawson, John Grant

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Valentia, Viscount

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S.

    Purvis, Robert

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton)

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Randles, John S.

    Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne)

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Lowe, Francis William

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Loyd, Arche Kirkman

    Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth)

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Wylie, Alexander

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Younger, William

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Malcolm, Ian

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Smith, Abel H.(Herford, East)

    Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Morgan, DavidJ(Walthamst'w)

    Smith, H. C.(North'mb. Tyneside

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Allen, CharlesP(Glouc.,Stroud)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Runciman, Walter

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

    Bell, Richard

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Shackleton, David James

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Brigg, John

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R(Northants)

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Strachery, Sir Edward

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Tennant, Harold John

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Lambert, George

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Burns, John

    Langley, Batty

    Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

    Burt, Thomas

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Leng, Sir John

    Toulmin, George

    Caldwell, James

    Levy, Maurice

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Cameron, Robert

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Lloyd-George, David

    Weir, James Galloway

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Cawley, Frederick

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Middlemore, John throgmort'n

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfold, Mid.)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

    Wilson, HenryJ.(York, W. R.)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Nussey, Thomas Willians

    Edwards, Frank

    Pease, HerbertPike(Darlingt'n)

    Evans, SirFrancisH(Maidstone)

    Philipps, John Wynford

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Price, Robert John

    Mr. HebertGladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

    Fenwick, Charles

    Rigg, Richard

    Question put, and agreed to.

    *SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the Clause which he now moved related to a class of school which ought not to be ignored or left out of the Bill; but which on the other hand ought not to be thrown on the local authority unless the local authority were prepared to adopt them. Some were marine schools, five in number, which had been taken over for the children of parents connected with the Admiralty in various ways, and which had hitherto received the Parliamentary grant. The other classes of schools were orphanages and institutions, in which in certain large towns waifs and strays were collected together in one building, and were looked after by charitable persons. These schools had for many years received a Parliamentary grant; they were useful for charitable purposes, and it was proposed that while they fulfilled the condition of public elementary schools they should continue to receive the Parliamentary grant, unless they were taken over by the local authority. It was not fair, however, to the local authority that children should be collected from various parts of the United Kingdom, and thrown on the rates of a particular local area. Therefore, the Clause proposed that these schools should be recognised as proper recipients of a Parliamentary grant, and that the local authority should have the option of taking them over, if they so pleased. He did not think that there was any ecclesiastical purpose lurking in the Clause. and he hoped the Committee would agree to it.
    New Clause—
    "The local education authority may maintain under the provisions of this Act, but shall not be required so to maintain, any marine school, or any school which is part of, or is held in the premises of, any institution in which children are boarded, but their refusal to maintain such a school shall not render the school incapable of receiving the Parliamentary grant, nor shall the school, if not so maintained, be subject to the provisions of this Act as to the appointment of managers."—(Sir William Anson.)
    118
    Brought up and read the first time.
    Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
    *SIR CHARLES DILKE ()said they on that side objected to the intrusion of these very delicate subjects in the form of new Clauses at the last moment. If these subjects were deserving of special attention they ought to have been dealt with at an earlier period, so that the Committee might have an opportunity of judging as to their real bearing. He noticed an interesting speech by the Bishop of St. Asaph, in which, alluding to the present group of new Clauses, he said that even yet they might hope to have important Amendments, as there was "an institution known as the House of Lords for putting in Amendments at the last moment; and it might be possible to get a friendly line inserted here and there." As far as he had time to look into the Clause the observations he would make about it wore, that as far as the marine schools were concerned, there were several Departments of the State concerned in their management, and they were under special and exceptional legislation, so that this Clause was not needed in their behoof. As to the other schools, the overwhelming majority were schools which had only been held to be public elementary schools within the last two or three years. There was nothing of a public elementary school character about them, and they were not schools which any ordinary man would believe were public elementary schools uniess he was assured they were. The whole theory of a public elementary school was that it should be available to the public in its neighbourhood. Some of the schools referred to in the Clause were in theory open to the public, but in practice they were not. They were not always full, and the vacant places were not filled by children in the locality. People were not aware that they were public elementary schools; and in one or two cases where a claim for admission was made it was received with horror. Some of them had enormous endowment, such as the school of the Royal Hospital at Greenwich. which was endowed to the

    119
    extent of nearly £7,000 a year. Some were semi-industrial schools. with laundries attached, from which large profits were made. Among the schools which would come under the Clause were the St. Joseph's Home at Sheffield, Princess Louise's Home at Kingston, the School of Handicrafts at Chertsey, the School of the Sacred Heart at Roehampton, the School of the Beneveolent Society of St. Patrick, the Royal Victoria Patriotic Asylum, and a boarding school at Ealing. All these were schools which any man would not assume to be public elementary schools; and if they were to receive grants from the State, they ought to be under local control. They ought not to be withdrawn from the knowledge of the local education authority, which would not interfere with them unduly, where they were properly carried on.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the speech of the right hon. Gentleman appeared to be strongly in favour of the Clause. He could assure him that the Clause had been introduced for no other reason than to protect the local authority. The right hon. Gentleman said, truly enough, that no one in the districts in which they were supposed that they were public elementary schools. They had not the ordinary characteristics of a public elementary school, and their nearest neighbours were not aware that they came under the legal definition of a public elementary school. The Government thought it was extremely hard to saddle the local education authority with the necessity of maintaining those schools. If they wished to do so, well and good; but if they did not desire to do so, why should the burden be thrown upon the local education authority of maintaining children who
    120
    were gathered from outside their area? If the children were drawn entirely from within the area, there would be no particular hardship in requiring the local authority to maintain the schools; but he thought it would be hard to impose a burden on the rates of any particular county in respect of children drawn from various counties. The complaint was made that the Government had not included the Clause originally in the Bill. The number of such schools was not very large, and their case had not been brought under the notice of the Government until late in the discussions, when they framed the Clause solely in the interest of the local education authority. It did not affect the framework of the Bill in the least. If the Committee chose to throw upon the local education authority the additional burden of maintaining schools in which children were gathered from outside districts, it would not touch sectarian interests in which any one was concerned; but in the view of the Government it would inflict a grave injustice on the local education authority, and for that reason he hoped the Committee would add the Clause to the Bill.
    MR. TENNANT ()said he thought it was to be regretted that the Committee did not know earlier what was the intention of the Government in regard to these institutions. He quite sympathised with the reason given by the right hon. Gentleman, but, at the same time, they could not help commiserating with themselves, as if they had had notice, they might have been able to lay arguments and facts on the subject before the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman said it was the desire of the Government to protect the local

    121
    authority; but who would protect the poor children in these institutions? He should like to know whether these schools were public elementary schools or not. If they were, why should they be given differential treatment? The point he felt most keenly was that all these religious institutions were given differential treatment from other cases. That seemed to be the settled policy of he Government, and he regarded it as most unfortunate that such a provision should have found its way into the Bill without the Committee having full opportunity of considering it.
    *SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the schools were public elementary schools. They had a Conscience Clause, and the schools were subject to Government inspection. The real reason why the Clause had been framed was, as the Prime Minister had stated, that the children in the schools were brought together from outside districts, and that it would be unfair to throw the burden of supporting these schools on the local education authority without giving them an option in the matter. There was really nothing behind the Clause.
    MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid that the management of those schools was often of a most slip-shod character. Many of them also were actually making very considerable profits by means of the Parliamentary grant, as the cost of carrying on charity schools was much less than in the case of ordinary schools, and he thought these were reasons why there should be some representative of the public to see that the money was used for the purpose for which it was granted.
    *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid it was undoubtedly the cases that the accounts of some of these schools showed that enormous profits were being made out of the labour in the laundries of the children supposed to be attending these public elementary schools. He thought it was a mistake that many of these schools should be treated as public elementary schools at all. Just as the Code prevented such schools being so treated when conducted for private profit, so it might be worded to prevent many of these schools being held to be public elementary schools, and then they would not come on the funds of the local authority, but that they could satisfactorily be dealt with outside the scope of this Bill he entirely denied, and he complained that the Committee had not had proper time to consider the matter with a view to introducing Amendments to protect the public interest. He further asked whether the words "Parliamentary grant" were carefully defined, so as to show that it was the old grant, and not the grant as it would be under the Bill.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it was the existing Parliamentary grant.
    Clause read a second time.
    MR. HERBERT LEWISmoved to insert after the word "maintain" in the first line of the Clause the words "as a public elementary school." He said the object was to make it clear that the Clause should not apply to secondary boarding schools.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In line I, after 'maintain' insert 'as a public elementary school.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)
    Amendment agreed to.
    (10.56.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 99. (Division List No. 567.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Dormgton, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Doughty, George

    Keswick, William

    Arrol, Sir William

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Kimber, Henry

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Knowles, Lees

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick W m.

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Lawrence, William F(Liverpool)

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Lawson, John Grant

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Balfour, Rt. HnGerald W(Leeds)

    Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Finch, George H.

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Eve-ham)

    Bignold, Arthur

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

    Bigwood, James

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Lowe, Francis William

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

    Bond, Edward

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Forster, Henry William

    Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Gardner, Ernest

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Garfit, William

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H(City of Lond.)

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

    Maclver, David(Liverpool)

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

    M 'Arthur, Charles(Liverpool)

    Bull, William James

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Malcolm, Ian

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

    Butcher, John George

    Gray, Ernest(West Ham)

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Greene, Sir E W(B'ry S. Edm'nds)

    Milner, Rt Hon. Sir Frederick G.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

    Greene, W. Raymond-(cambs.)

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Groves, James Grimble

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Chamberlain, Rt Hon JA (Worc,)

    Guthrie, Walter Murray

    More, Robt. Jesper(Shropshire)

    Chapman, Edward

    Hamilton, RtHn LordG (Midd'x)

    Morgan, David J(Walthamst'w)

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd)

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Cochrane. Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hare. Thomas Leigh

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Murray, RtHn A. Graham(Bute)

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Helder, Augustus

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Higgm bottom, S. W.

    Palmer, Walter(Salisbury)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Hobhouse, Henry (Someset, E.)

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n)

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

    Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Horner, Frederick William

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Percy, Earl

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Denny, Colonel

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H. (Sheffi'ld)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Sinclair, Louis(Romford)

    Vincent, Sir Edgar(Exeter)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Purvis, Robert

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E(Taunton)

    Randles, John S.

    Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside)

    Whiteley, H(Ashton-und Lyne)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Reid, James(Greenock)

    Spear, John Ward

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Staly bridge)

    Stanley, Lord(Lancs.)

    Wilson, John(Glasgow)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

    Wilson-Todd, W m. H. (Yorks.)

    Roberts, Samuel(Sheffield)

    Stock, James Henry

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Wylie, Alexander

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Talbot, RtHn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

    Younger, William

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Tomlinson, Sir W m. Edw. M.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Tully, Jasper

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Valentia, Viscount

    NOES.

    Abraham, William(Rhondda)

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

    Rigg, Richard

    Allan, Sir William(Gateshead)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Roberts, John Bryn(Eifion)

    Allen, Charles P. (Gloue. Stroud)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Runciman, Walter

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Bell, Richard

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Shackleton, David James

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Brigg, John

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Sinclair, John(Forfarshire)

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Lambert, George

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Langley, Batty

    Spencer, RtHn. C. R(Northants)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon, James

    Layland, Barratt, Francis

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Burns, John

    Leng, Sir John

    Tenannt, Harold John

    Burt, Thomas

    Levy, Maurice

    Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.)

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

    Caldwell, James

    Lloyd-George, David

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Cameron, Robert

    Lough, Thomas

    Toulmin, Gorge

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Macartney, RtHn. W. G. Ellison

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Causton, Richard Knight

    M'Arthur, William(Cornwall)

    Walton, Joseph(Barusley)

    Cawley, Frederick

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Weir, James Galloway

    Channing, Francis Allston

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    White, George(Norfolk)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    White, Luke(York, E. R.)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

    Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

    Davies, Alfred(Carmarthen)

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Newnes, Sir George

    Whittaker, Thomas Plamer

    Dewar, John A. (Iverness-sh.)

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Paruington, Oswald

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Ellis, John Edward

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Emmott, Alfred

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone)

    Philipps, John Wynford

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Charles Dilke and Mr. Alfred Hutton.

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Price, Robert John

    Fenwick, Charles

    Priestley, Arthur

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    It being after Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman, in Pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, proceeded to put forthwith the Questions on another Government New Clause, on
    Schedules and Government New Schedules, and on other proceedings necessary to bring the Committee Stage to a conclusion.
    New Clause(Application of Act to Scilly Islands)—(Sir William Anson)—added to the Bill.
    Schedules 1 and 3 disagreed to.
    Schedule 4 amended.
    (11.13.) Question put, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Fourth Schedule to the Bill."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes 230; Noes, 95. (Division List No. 568.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Denny, Colonel

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Allhusen, Augustns H'nry Eden

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Arrol, Sir William

    Doughty, George

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

    Bailey, James(Walworth)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Keswick, William

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Kimber, Henry

    Balcarres, Lord

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Knowles, Lees

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Lawson, John Grant

    Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

    Finch, George H.

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Beresford, Lord Chas. William

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Bignold, Arthur

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Bigwood, James

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Fison, Frederick William

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Bond, Edward

    Flaunery, Sir Fortescue

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Forster, Henry William

    Lowe, Francis William

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Gardner, Ernest

    Lowther, C. (Cumb,. Eskdale)

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Garfit, William

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond)

    Lucas, Col. Francis(Lowestoft)

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth.)

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

    Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop)

    Macartney, RtHn. W. G. Ellison

    Bull, William James

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.)

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Butcher, John George

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    MacIver, David(Liverpool)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

    Graham, Henry Robert

    M'Arthur, Charles(Liverpool)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Gray, Ernest(West Ham)

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Cecil, Lord Hugh(Greenwich)

    Greene, Sir EW(B'ry S Edm'nds)

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A. (Worc)

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Chapman, Edward

    Groves, James Grimble

    Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Guthrie, Walter Murray

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

    Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x)

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W m.

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford)

    Morgan, David J(Walthamst'w)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Colston, Charles Edw. H. Athole

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Helder, Augustus

    Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham(Bute)

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Palmer, Walter(Salisbury)

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.)

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n)

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

    Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Horner, Frederick William

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Percy, Earl

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Tully, Jasper

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Valentia, Viscount

    platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Sinclair, Louis(Romford)

    Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H(Sheffield)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Vincent, Sir Edgar(Exeter)

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside)

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E(Taunton)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

    Whiteley, H.(Ashton-und-Lyne)

    Purvis, Robert

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Randles, John S.

    Spear, John Ward

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

    Willoughy de Eresby, Lord

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Stanley, Lord(Lancs.)

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Reid, James(Greenock)

    Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

    Wilson, John(Glasgow)

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Ridley, Hon. M. W(Staly bridge)

    Stock, James Henry

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Roberts, Samuel(Sheffield)

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Wylie, Alexander

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Ox. Univ.)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Taylor, Austin(East Toxteth)

    Younger, William

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Tollemache, Henry James

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    NOES.

    Abraham, William(Rhondda)

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Roberts, John Bryn(Eifion)

    Allen, Charles, P. (Gloue., Stroud)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Runciman, Walter

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Bell, Richard

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Scale-

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Shackleton, David James

    Brand. Hon. Arthur G.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Brigg, John

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Lambert, George

    Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R(Northants)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Langley, Batty

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Burt, Thomas

    Layland-Barratt, Farncis

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Leng, Sir John

    Tennant, Harold John

    Caldwell, James

    Levy, Maurice

    Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.)

    Cameron, Robert

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Lough, Thomas

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Toulmin, George

    Channing, Francis Allston

    M 'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Walton, Joseph(Barnsley)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Weir, James Galloway

    Cremer, William Randal

    Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

    Whit, George(Norfolk)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    White, Luke(York, E. R.)

    Davies, Alfred(Carmarthen)

    Newnes, Sir George

    Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Whitley, J. H.(Halifax)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Partington, Oswald

    Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.)

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T(Huddersf'd)

    Ellis, John Edward

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Emmott, Alfred

    Price, Robert John

    Evans, Sir FrancisH(Maidstone)

    Priestley, Arthur

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Wm. M'Arthur.

    Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Fenwick, Charles

    Rigg, Richard

    New Schedule (Provision as to Education Committees and Managers.)—(Sir William Anson.)
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 225; Noes, 93. (Division List No. 569.)
    (11.26.) Question put, "That this Schedule be added to the Bill as the First Schedule."
    The Committee divided:— Ayes, 225; Nocs, 93. (Division List No. 569.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

    Allhusen, AugustusH'nry Eden

    Fison, Fredrick William

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Forster, Henry William

    Morgan, David J.(W'lthamst'w)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Gardner, Ernest

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Arrol, Sir William

    Garfit, William

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Gibbs, Hon. H A G(City of Lond.)

    Murray, RtHn A. Graham(Bute)

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

    Murray, Charles J. (Conventry)

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Gore, HnG. R. COrmsby-(Salop)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.)

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r)

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n)

    Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds)

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Banbury, Fredrick George

    Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS Edm'nds)

    Percy, Earl

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Beresford, Ld. Charles William

    Grenfell, William Henry

    Platt-Higgins, Fredrick

    Bignold, Arthur

    Groves, James Grimble

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Bigwood, James

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Githrie, Walter Murray

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Bond, Edward

    Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. RobertWm.

    Purvis, Robert

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd)

    Randles, John S.

    Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Rankin, Sir James

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.)

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Bull, William James

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas Thomson

    Butcher, John George

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E)

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire)

    Hope, J. F.(Sheffield Brightside)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Cecil, Evelyln (Aston Manor)

    Horner, Frederick William

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Chamberlain, Rt. HonJA(Wore.)

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Chapman, Edward

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Sinclair Louis (Romford)

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Kemp, George

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Kenyon, Hon. GeoT.(Denbigh)

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

    Cook, Sir Fredrick Lucas

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.)

    Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Keswick, William

    Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Kimber, Henry

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Stand)

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Spear, John Ward

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Knowles, Lees

    Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Lambton, Hon. Fredrick Wm.

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Lawson, John Grant

    Stock, James Henry

    Denny, Colonel

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Leveson-Gower, Fredrick N. S.

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Talbot, Rt. HnJ. G.(Oxf'd Univ.)

    Dixon-HartlandSirFredDixon

    Long, Col. Chas. W.(Evesham)

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Doughty, George

    Lowe, Francis William

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Lowther, C. Cumb. (Eskdale)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Valentia, Viscount

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth)

    Vincent, Col. SirCEH(Sheffield)

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Macartney, RtHn. W. G Ellison

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Welby, Lt. ColA. C. E(Taunton)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne)

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r)

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Finch, George H.

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Willoughby de Fresby, Lord

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Milner, RtHon. Sir FrederickG.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    132

    133

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks)

    Wylie, Alexander

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn, E. R. (Bath)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Younger, William

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Rigg, Richard

    Allen, Chas. P.(Gloue., Stroud)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Bell, Richard

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Shackleton, David James

    Brigg, John

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Brown,!George M. (Edinburgh)

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Lambert, George

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Langley, Batty

    Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R(Northants)

    Burt, Thomas

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Leng, Sir John

    Tennant, Harold John

    Caldwell, James

    Levy, Maurice

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Cameron, Robert

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Lough, Thomas

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Toulmin, George

    Channing, Francis Allston

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Walton, Joseph Barnsley

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Weir, James Galloway

    Cremer, William Randal

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Newnes, Sir George

    Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Norman, Henry

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Nussey, Thomas Willians

    Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk. Mid.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Partington, Oswald

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Ellis, John Edward

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Woodhouse, SirJ. T (Huss'rsf'd

    Emmott, Alfred

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Yoxall, JAmes Henry

    Evans, Sir FrancisH(Maidstone)

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Evens, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Price, Robert John

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstoneand Mr. William M'Arthur

    Fenwick, Charles

    Priestley, Arthur

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    New Schedule (Provisions as to Transfer of Property and Officers, and Adjustment).—(Sir William Anson.)
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 217; Noes, 90. (Division List No. 570.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Balfour, RtHn. GeraldW(Leeds)

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch)

    Brodrick, Rt, Hon. St. John

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Borrkfield, Colonel Montagu

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Beresford, LordCharles William

    Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh)

    Arrol, Sir William

    Bignold, Arthur

    Bull, William James

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Bigwood, James

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Burcher, John George

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Boud, Edward

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire)

    (11.38.) Question put, "That this Schedule be added to the Bill as the Second Schedule."
    New Schedule (Modification of Acts).—(Sir William Anson.)
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 214; Noes, 88. (Division List No. 571.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Balfour, RtHn. GeraldW(Leeds)

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch)

    Brodrick, Rt, Hon. St. John

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Borrkfield, Colonel Montagu

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Beresford, LordCharles William

    Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh)

    Arrol, Sir William

    Bignold, Arthur

    Bull, William James

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Bigwood, James

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Burcher, John George

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Boud, Edward

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A(Wore)

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Pryce-Jones, Lt-Col. Edward

    Chapman, Edward

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Purvis, Robert

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.

    Randles, John S.

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Hogg, Lindasy

    Rankin, Sir James

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Hozier. Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge)

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Jessel, CaptainHerbert Merton

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Keswick, William

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Kimber, Henry

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Denny, Colonel

    Knowles, Lees

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Dimsadale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

    Lawson, John Grant

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Legge, Col. Hon. Hencage

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Doughty, George

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

    Doughlas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Leveson-Gower, FrederickN. S.

    Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks.)

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Long, Col. CharlesW. (Evesham)

    Spear, John Ward

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Long, RtHonWalter(Bristol, S.)

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

    Egerton, Hon. A de Tatton

    Lowe, Francis William

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Stock, James Henry

    Fergusson, RtHonSir J(Manc'r)

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Finch, George H.

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Talbot Lord E. (Chichester)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Macartney, RtHn W. G. Ellison

    Talbot, RtHn. J. G.(Oxf'dUniv.)

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Tomlison, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Forster, Henry William

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Tully, Jasper

    Gardner, Ernest

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Valentia, Viscount

    Garfit, William

    Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir FrederickG.

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Gibbs, Hn. H. A. G(City ofLond.)

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

    Welby, Lt.-ColA. C. E(Taunton)

    Godson, SirAugustusFrederick

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Whiteley, H.(Asht'n-und. Lyne)

    Gore, HnG. R. Cormsby-(Salop)

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

    Morgan, DavidJ.(Walthamstow)

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Murray, RtHnA. Graham(Bute)

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)

    Greene, Sir. EW(B'rySEdm'nds)

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B Stuart-

    Grenfell, William Henry

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Groves, James Grimble

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchil

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Younger, William

    Cuthrie, Walter Murray

    Pease, HerbertPike(Darlinton)

    Hamilton, RtHnLordG(Midd'x)

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

    Percy, Earl

    Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Plummer, Walter R.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Allen, CharlesP. (Glouc.,Stroud

    Brigg, John

    Burt, Thomas

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Caldwell, James

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Bell, Richard

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Causton, Richard Knight

    136

    137

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Levy, Maurice

    Shipman, Dr, John G.

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Lough, Thomas

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Dalziel, James Henry

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R(Northants)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    M'Laren, SirCharles Benjamin

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan)

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Tennant, Harold John

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Newnes, Sir George

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Norman, Henry

    Toulmin, George

    Ellis, John Edward

    Norton, Capt, Cecil William

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Evans, SirFrancisH(Maidstone)

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Weir, James Galloway

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Partington, Oswald

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Paulton, James Mellor

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Price, Robert John

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Priestley, Arthur

    Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Rigg, Richard

    Woodhouse, SirJ. T(Huddersf'd)

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eilion)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Runciman, Walter

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Lambert, George

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Shackletcn, David James

    Leng, Sir John

    Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.)

    Denny, Colonel

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Bull, William James

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Arrol, Sir William

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Butcher, John George

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire)

    Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Green wich)

    Donghty, George

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A(Wore)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Balfour, RtHnGeraldW.(Leeds)

    Chapman, Edward

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Charrington, Spencer

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Clive, Captain Perey A.

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Cogbill, Douglas Harry

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Beresford LordCharlesWilliam

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Bignold, Arthur

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Fergusson, RtHn. SirJ.(Manc'r)

    Bigwood, James

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Finch, George H.

    Bond, Edward

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Firbank, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex)

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Fison, Frederick William

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Ridley, Hon. M. W.(Stalybridge)

    Forster, Henry William

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Ritchie, RtHon. Chas. Thomson

    Gardner, Ernest

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N. S

    Roberts. Samuel (Sheffield)

    Garfit, William

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H.(City of Lond)

    Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Lowe, Francis William

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop)

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line.)

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Macartney, RtHn. W. G. Ellison

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Greene, SirEW(B'ry Edm'nds)

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

    Grenfell, William Henry

    MacIver, David Liverpool)

    Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside)

    Groves, James Grimble

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Smith, JamesParker(Lanarks.)

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Guthrie, Walter Murray

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Spear, John Ward

    Hamilton Rt. HnLordG(Midd'x)

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Stanley, EdwardJas(Somerset)

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Milner, Rt. Hn. SirFrederick G.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashford)

    Montagu. G. (Huntingdon)

    Stewart, SirMarkJ. M'Taggart

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Stock, James Henry

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Strutr, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    MorganDavidJ(Walthamstow)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'dUniv.)

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    MurrayRtHn. A. Grabam(Bute)

    Thoruton, Percy M.

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

    Murray, CharlesJ.(Coventry)

    Tomlinson, Sir. Wm. Edw. M.

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Valentia, Viscount

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Hozier, Hon. James HenryCecil

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

    Welby, Lt-ColA. C. E.(Taunton)

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Peel, Hn. Wm. RobertWellesley

    Whiteley, H(Ashton and. Lyne)

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Jessel, Captain HerbertMerton

    Perey, Earl

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Kemp, George

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Keswick, William

    Pryee-Jones, Lt. Col. Edward

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Kimber, Henry

    Purvis, Robert

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Randles, John S.

    Younger, William

    Knowles, Lees

    Rankin, Sir James

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Lawson, John Grant

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Lambert, George

    Allen, CharlesP.(Glouc.,Stroud)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Leng, Sir John

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Levy, Maurice

    Bell, Richard

    Edwards, Frank

    Lough, Thomas

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Ellis, John Edward

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Brigg, John

    Evans, SirFrancisH(Maidstone)

    M'Laren, Sir Charless Benjamin

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Newnes, Sir George

    Caldwell, James

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Norman, Henry

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. CharlesSeale-

    Nussey, Thomas Willians

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Partington, Oswald

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Helme, Norval Wastson

    Cremer, William Randal

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Davies, Alfred(Carmarthen)

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Philipps, John Wynford

    140

    141

    price, Robert John

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

    Priestley, Arthur

    Spencer, RtHn. C. R. Northants)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Rigg Richard

    Tennant, Harold John

    Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid,)

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eilion)

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rshd)

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Thomson F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Toulmin, George

    Shackelton, David James

    Walton, Joseph Barnsley

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. William M'Arthur.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    (11.48) Question put, "That this Schedule be added to the Bill as the Third Schedule."
    (12.1) Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the House."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 212; Noes, 83. (Division List No. 512.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Denny, Colonel

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Arrol, Sir William

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.)

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dix'n

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside)

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Balcarres, Lord

    Doughty, George

    Hozier, Hon. JamesHenryCecil

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Balfour, RtHnGerland W. (Leeds)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Kemp, George

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Beckett, Ernesrt William

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.)

    Beresford, Lord Chas. William

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ. (Manc'r)

    Keswick, William

    Bignold, Arthur

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Kimber, Henry

    Bigwood, James

    Finch, George H.

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Knowles, Lees

    Bond, Edward

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Bowels, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Lawson, John Grant

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Forster, Henry William

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    BrookField, Colonel Montagu

    Gardner, Ernest

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Garfit, William

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.)

    Loder, Gerland Walter (Erskine)

    Bull, William James

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary(St. Albans)

    Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Godson, Sir AugustusFrederick

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol. S.)

    Butcher, John George

    Gore, HnG. R. Cormsby-(Salop)

    Lowe, Francis William

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

    Gore, Hon S. F. Ormsby-(Line.)

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwhich)

    Goulding Edward Alfred

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A(Wore.)

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth)

    Champman, Edward

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Charrington, Spencer

    Greene, SirEW (B'rysS. Edm'nds)

    Macartney, RtHn. W. Gellison

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Grenfell, William Henry

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Groves James Grimble

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Coolings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Masconochie, A. W.

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Guthrie, Walter Murray

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x)

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon Robert Wm.

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd)

    Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

    Cross Alexander (Glasgow)

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Morgan, DavidJ(Walth'mstow)

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheflield)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Tufnell Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Murray, Rt HnA. Graham(Bute)

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Tully, Jasper

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Valentia, Viscount

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Vincent Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton)

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Whiteley, H(Ashton-Und. Lyne)

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n)

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Percy, Earl

    Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside)

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

    Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Spear, John Ward

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

    Wringston, Sir Thomas

    Purvis, Robert

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Randles, John S.

    Stewart, SirMark J. M'Taggart

    Younger, William

    Rankin, Sir James

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Stock, James Henry

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Strntt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Talbot, Rt. HnJG(Oxford Univ.)

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Runciman, Walter

    Allen, CharlesP.(Glouc.,Stroud)

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Shackleton, David James

    Bell, Richard

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Brigg, John

    Lambert, George

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Leng, Sir John

    Spencer, RtHn. C. R.(Northants)

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Levy, Maurice

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Tennant, Harold John

    Caldwell, James

    Lough, Thomas

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Toulmin, George

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Davies, Alfred (Camarthen)

    Newnes, Sir George

    Weir, James Galloway

    Dewar, John A (Inverness-sh.

    Norman, Henry

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Nussey, Thomas Willians

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Parington, Oswald

    Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Ellis, John Edward

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Evans, SirFrancisH(Maidstone)

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Price, Robert John

    Woodhouse, SirJT(Huddersf'd)

    Fuller, J. M. F.

    Priestley, Arthur

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert. John

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Rigg, Richard

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Mr. Samuel Evans and Mr. M'Kenna

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Bill reported, as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 303.]
    Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October
    144
    last, adjourned the House without Question put.
    Adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Correspondence relating to the appeal of the Boer Generals to the civilised world.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Grants for school teachers' houses.
  INDIA (SANITARY MEASURES).
  Report on sanitary measures in India in 1900-1901. Volume 34.

  CENSUS OF ENGLAND AND WALES,1901.
  Area, houses and population, also population classified by ages, condition as to marriage, occupations birthplaces, and infirmities of the counties of Berks, Monmouth, Northampton, Cornwall.
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie the Table.

  TECHNICALINSTRUCTION ACT.
  Minutes sanctioning subjects to be taught under Clause 8 of the Technical
  2
  Instruction Act, 1889, for the counties of Carmarthen (first minute); Glamorgan (twelfth minute); Salop (fifth minute).

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  University Court Ordinance No. VI. (Glasgow No. 2). Regulations for degrees in science in public health.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) (No. 2) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be read 2a on Monday next (The Lord President [Duke of Deconshire]); and Standing Order No. XXXIX. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.
  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  Message from the Commons for leave for the Lord Welby to attend to be examined as a witness before the Select Committee of that House.

  CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
  Moved, that the Earl Waldegrave be appointed to take the chair in the Committee of the Whole House this day in

  3
  the absence of the Chairman of Committees (The Marquess of Lansdowne); agreed to.

  PATENT LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
  Clause3:—
  LORD DAVEY: My Lords, on this Clause I have several Amendments, the object of all of which is to carry out what I indicated in the few words I addressed to the House on the occasion of the Second Reading, namely, to provide that the Judicial Committee shall not make Orders, but merely advise the King in Council, which is the proper function of that Committee.
  Amendment moved—
  "In Clause 3, page 3, line 14, to leave out 'the Judicial Committee may order,' and after 'patentee' to insert 'may he ordered by an Order in Council.'"—: (Lord Davey.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): Perhaps I might interpose and say that all the Amendments of my noble and learned friend are of a drafting nature. The Government accepts them, and I would suggest that they be taken en bloc.
  Amendments agreed to.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendments to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE BILL [H.L.]
  commons' Amendments considered (according to order).
  THE EARL OF HALSBURY: The Amendments which have been inserted in the other House are quite in accordance with what was intended by the Bill, and I move that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments.
  On Question, Commons' Amendments agreed to.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Five o'clock till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.