Sitting of 18 November 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

COMMISSION.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went; and, being returned—

Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to a number of Bills [see page 1225].
PETITIONS.
  CANADIAN CATTLE (IMPORTATION).
  Petitions for abolition of restrictions: from Coatbridge; Burnbank; Grahamston; and Shettleston; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against: from Maulden; Hamilton; Sheffield; and Suffolk; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: From Burn-bank; Shettleston; Coatbridge; and Grahamston; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Anfield, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Sleat, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION IN TRADE.
  Petitions for legislation: from Coatbridge; Burnbank; Grahamston; and Shettleston; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
  Copy presented of licence granted to Henry Goodwin, a convict, permitting him to be at large, to which are annexed conditions other than those contained in Schedule A of The Penal Servitude Act, 1864 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889 (ORDINANCE).
  Copy presented of University Court Ordinance No. VI. (Glasgow No. 2) (Regulations for Degrees in Science in Public Health) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 375.]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Civil Service Examinations—Entrance Fees.
  MR. PHILIPPS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that there is only one Admiralty junior appointment vacant, for which the Civil Service Commissioners are advertising an eight days examination on 25th November, to be held simultaneously in London, Dublin, and Edinburgh, at a fee of £6; and will he state what number of candidates have entered for the examination; and whether he will consider the desirability, when the number of vacancies is small, of reducing the entrance fee.
  (Answered by Mr. Hayes Fisher.) Thirty-three candidates have entered for the competition for the one junior appointment advertised in the Supply and Accounting Departments of the Admiralty. Fees payable by candidates are fixed with reference to the salary of the post competed for, and to the prospects of promotion from it. The office referred to in the Question is of a value to justify the highest fee—£6. The amount of fees received does not meet more than half the expenses of the Examining Department. I cannot hold out any prospect of the fees
  1228
  being altered where the number of competitors in a particular case is smaller or larger than the average.

  Navy—Cost of Training Seamen.
  MR. HARMSWORTH (Caithnessshire): To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state the cost per head for trained seamen, from the time they join till they have passed through the gunnery and torpedo schools and are regarded as efficient.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) I shall be happy to give this information, but it will take a few days to obtain it. I should be glad, therefore, if the hon. Member will repeat his Question next week.

  H.M.S. "Terrible"—Christmas Leave.
  MR. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the leave of the men of the "Terrible" will expire just before the beginning of the Christmas leave, the Lords of the Admiralty can see their way to allow the men to combine the two periods of leave so as to return after Christmas.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The Christmas leave at the ports has to be arranged in connection with the general duties of each port, and with regard to the personnel as a whole. The Admiralty do not consider it desirable to instruct the Commander-in-Chief to except from these considerations the men of any individual ship.

  Education Bill—Agricultural Grant.
  MR. LUKE WHITE: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether, under the Education Bill, County Councils will have to pay or credit each parish within a School Board district the proportion of grant now payable to School Boards under the Agricultural Rates Acts, 1896 and 1901, in aid of repayments of loans and interest.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) This question was dealt with in the debate in the House of Commons on the 17th. instant.

  Appointment of School Managers.
  MR. MANSFIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education, in cases where there are no foundation managers of non-provided schools, or where the school buildings are the private property of individuals, on what principle is it proposed that the managers of the school shall be appointed; in cases where the present number of managers of a non-provided school is, under the trust deeds of the school, either more or less than the number required by the Act, how will the number be increased or diminished, as the case may be, so as to obtain the number required by the Act.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The process by which foundation managers are to be appointed under the circumstances set forth in the Question is clearly stated in the new Clause, the insertion of which will be moved by the First Lord of the Treasury on the 19th instant.

  Responsibility for School Buildings.
  MR. MANSFIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will explain what is meant by the words keep the school house in good repair, and make such alterations and improvements in the buildings as may be reasonably required, in Clause 8, sub-Section (d), of the Education Bill now before Parliament; does good repair include the making good of the ordinary wear and tear of the buildings; does this term cover the whole of the school premises, i.e., the playground, outbuildings, and offices; are the managers to be responsible for the enlargement of the buildings required by the growth of the school; and will he draw up and insert in the Schedule a model form of agreement to be made between the trustees of a non-provided school and the education authority, giving the exact terms of what may be required from them.
  (Answered by Sir William Anson.) I must decline to answer questions which relate to the interpretation of details of a Bill which is still under discussion in the House of Commons. I do not propose to insert in the Schedule such a form of agreement as the hon. Member proposes.

  Education Committees—Delegation of Work to Local Committees.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASE: To ask Mr. Attorney General whether, under the Education (England and Wales) Bill, an education committee will have the power to delegate, or transfer subject to confirmation, the whole or part of its work to local committees; and whether it is necessary that all or any of the persons appointed to serve on a local committee shall be members of the education committee.
  (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) The hon. Member will find that it is proposed to deal with this point in paragraph 6 of the first division of the First Schedule, on page 33 of this day's White Paper.

  Position of Cann Hall District.
  MR. LOUIS SINCLAIR: To ask the President of the Local Government Board under which authority the district of Cann Hall will come, under the provisions of the Education Bill, seeing that Cann Hall has its own poor law officers, is incorporated with Leyton for sanitary purposes, and allied at present with Wanstead under the School Board.
  (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) Cann Hall appears to be a parish in the Leyton Urban District. That district has a populations which, according to the last census, exceeds 20,000. Under the Bill the Urban District Council will be the local education authority throughout the district for the purposes of elementary education, and the Essex County Council for the purposes of higher education.

  Arrest of Mr. Lynch, M. P.
  MR. JOHNSTONE: To ask Mr. Attorney General whether he will state when the hon. Member for Galway city was arrested in England; if his arrest was consequent on a communication from the hon. Member himself, and how many times he has been brought before a magistrate and remanded for want of necessary evidence; when was the hon. Member last remanded, and for how long; and can he state when the Crown expect to be able to resume the case against the hon. Member.

  1231
  (Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) The arrest took place on the 11th June, 1902. I understand that lie had written a letter, which appeared in the public Press on the 6th day of June, 1902, to say he was coming to England, but the information had been prepared some months before his arrival. There were nine remands, four of them being in consequence of the fact that some of the witnesses had returned to South Africa, in consequence of his not returning to England earlier, and had to be brought back. The evidence was completed, and the committal for trial was made on the 1st August. Notice to summon a grand jury, which is a necessary step in this case, has been given, and there will be no avoidable delay in proceeding to trial.

  Treatment of Jews in Roumania.
  MAJOR EVANS-GORDON: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state when the recent correspondence upon the treatment of the Jews in Roumania will be laid upon the Table.
  (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) I hope my hon. friend will not find my answer very disappointing, but I can only refer him to that given to him by my right hon. friend at the head of the Government on the 20th October.† No useful purpose would be served by presenting correspondence in the present stage of the question.

  Ireland—Railway Loans—Carndonagh-Calduff Railway.
  MR. O'DOHERTY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland how much of time £500,000 voted by Parliament under the Railways (Ireland) Act, 1896, has been unallocated; and whether, out of the unallocated balance, with a view to the development of the North Donegal fisheries, he will consider the advisability of giving a grant in aid of an extension of the Carndonagh Railway to Calduff.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The entire sum mentioned has been hypothecated. By Section 9 of the Marine Works Act, 1902, any sums liberated under the
  † See preceding Volume, page 219.
  1232
  Act of 1896 will be applied for the purposes for which advances may be made under the former Act.

  State Purchase of Irish Railways.
  MR. O'DOHERTY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, during the Chief Secretaryship of the First Lord of the Treasury, inquiries took place with reference to the State purchase of Irish railways; that, with a view of carrying out such a scheme. Mr. Thomas Robertson was appointed chairman of the Irish Board of Works, and reported favourably thereon; whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a Copy of the Report and other communications relating thereto; and whether he will consider the advisability of recommending the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) No, Sir. I am not aware that such inquiries were instituted. The First Lord in April, 1897, in reply to a Question of the honourable Member for West Waterford, stated that he knew of no reason for departing from the conclusions of the Royal Commissions appointed in 1865 and 1886. They were adverse to the policy of State purchase. I am not prepared to recommend the appointment of a third Royal Com mission.

  Cavalry and Infantry Officers' Entrance Examinations.
  MR. PIRIE: To ask the Secretary of State for War, in view of the recent changes whereby officers are now provided with furnished quarters and supplied with chargers if in the mounted branches of the service, if he will consider the advisability of again placing the entrance examinations for cavalry and for infantry on an equal footing both as regards age and requirements, and of allowing the choice of the two services to candidates, in accordance with the number of marks they obtain, as is done in the Woolwich examinations for Engineers and Artillery.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The suggestions of the hon. Member will be considered, but until the new system has been tested I am not prepared to advise any change.

  Army Promotions—Length of Service.
  SIR ROBERT PENROSE-FITZGERALD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the length of service after which Majors and Captains are being promoted respectively to the ranks of Lieutenant-Colonel and Major is greater in the case of officers of the Royal Garrison Artillery than in that of the Royal Horse and Field Artillery, and of officers generally throughout the Service; and whether it is proposed to make any provision in the Army Estimates of 1903–4 for redressing the alleged grievance.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The periods of service in each rank have been affected in some branches be the war. I am proposing, by a reduction in the rate of absorption of the supernumerary majors, to remove the alleged grievance.

(2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Island of Lewis—Social Condition.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state why the Special Report on the social condition of the Island of Lewis by the Crofters Commission has not been circulated to Members, although it was laid upon the Table of the House four weeks ago.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire): The Special Report to which the hon. Member refers will be circulated this week. The Report was laid upon the Table on 22nd October.
  MR. WEIR: It is not to be found in the Library.

  Aird School Playground, Stornoway.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the School Board for the parish of Stornoway have been communicated with as to the desirability of providing some kind of shelter in the playground of Aird School as a protection during severe weather for the children who attend the school; and, seeing that His Majesty's Inspector has recommended shelters for Highland schools, will the Education Department take some action in the matter.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I can add little to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on 3rd November.† His Majesty's Inspector is quite alive to the matter in question, and he will consider it with the School Board. But he believes that the advantages of such sheds may not be commensurate with the cost, and that in some cases it is better to give access to the schoolrooms in case of boisterous weather during play hours.

  Island of Lewis—Local Government Inspection.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the fact that Mr. Millar, the Local Government. Board s Inspecting Officer under the Public Health Act, spent four days in the Island of Lewis in the month of May last, will the Secretary for Scotland state what townships in the parishes of Stornoway, Barvas, Lochs, and Uig were visited by this officer; has he made any report on the sanitary condition of those parishes; and, if not, will he be required to state why the conditions of The Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, are not enforced.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: Mr. Millar's visit to the Lewis was primarily for Poor Law purposes. He, however, also made a report on sanitary matters which may be of assistance to the Board.
  MR. WEIR: What townships did he visit?
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I am not aware.
  MR. WEIR: He did not visit one.

  Mid-Week United States Mails.
  MR. CHARLES M'ARTHUR: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the accelerated mail train service in connection with the mid-week United States mails via Queenstown, by means of which it was possible to deliver mails in New York some four hours earlier than previously, has been discontinued; and whether he will consider the advisability
  † See preceding volume, page 1381.

  1235
  of continuing the accelerated service for the purpose of securing early delivery of correspondence, even though its expense has to be borne by the Post Office.
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The service to which the hon. Member refers has been discontinued; but he is mistaken in supposing that it was an accelerated service. The time gained in delivery on the other side was lost by the public posting the correspondence here. The arrangement had, therefore, no postal advantage; and when it was made in deference to the wishes of the White Star Company it was conceded somewhat reluctantly, as it cut short the time for posting letters for the United States in tins Country on Wednesdays by some hours of a business day. Now that the company no longer requires the continuance of the arrangement, those hours have been recovered, while the mid-week course of post to New York is no longer than it was before.

  Stornoway Mail Service.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether his attention has been directed to the age of Messrs. Macbrayne's mail steamers "Glencoe" and "Gael," running between Kyle and Stornoway; does he propose to take steps to require Messrs. Macbrayne to carry His Majesty's mails in steamers of modern type; and will penalties be enforced against the firm when their mail steamers fail to keep time.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The "Glencoe" is not employed on the mail service to Stornoway. The hon. Member probably refers to the "Glendale" which has recently been performing the service. I understand that the "Glendale," was built in 1875, and the "Gael" in 1867, and that the latter steamer was fitted with new engines and boilers in 1892. Both of these steamers fulfil the requirements of the mail contract; and in view of the heavy loss already incurred in connection with this service, I cannot promise to take any stops in the direction indicated. I have given directions that in cases where time is lost without any
  1236
  satisfactory explanation, the question of imposing a penalty shall always be considered.

  St. John's Church Day Schools, Sutton-on-Plym.
  MR. CHARLES McARTHUR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether his attention has been directed to the case of Alice Emily Keates, attending the day schools of St. John's Church, Sutton-on-Plym, Plymouth, who declares that she was required by the schoolmistress to bow and make the sign of the Cross on passing an image of the Virgin Mary in the church, to which the school was taken twice a week and on Saints' days, and was caned by the mistress for her objection to do so, until her removal from the school by her father in February last; and whether he will investigate the matter, and state what steps he proposes to take to prevent the repetition of such proceedings.
  THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University): This information relates to a period which ended nine months ago; and no complaint has been made to the Board of Education. The statutory declarations of the girl and her father, sent to me privately by the honourable Member are being communicated to the managers.

  Plymtree Schoolroom.
  Mr. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Rector of Plymtree, Devon, refused on the 5th November, to the Liberal candidate for the Tiverton Division, the use of the schoolroom for a political meeting, alleging an attack on Christian teaching in schools; and will he withhold the public grants from schools the use of winch is refused for such public purposes.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I have no information on the subject. The managers are under no legal obligation to grant the use of the schoolroom to the candidate for the purpose of a political meeting. Their refusal would be no ground for the withdrawal of the Parliamentary grant.
  MR. LAMBERT: Will the Hon. Baronet inquire into the circumstances and see if the facts stated in the Question are correct?
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: No, Sir. The Board of Education has no authority in this matter.

  Irish-Speaking Magistrates and Post Office Officials.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the large Irish-speaking population in the counties of Galway, Mayo, Waterford, Kerry, Clare, Donegal, Cork, and Sligo, he will recommend that in the appointment of magistrates and post office and other officials in these Irish-speaking districts a knowledge of the Irish language will be insisted on as a necessary condition.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): Applications and recommendations for the Commission of the Peace are made to the respective lieutenants of counties. In Irish-speaking districts, interpreters are employed at assizes, quarter sessions, or petty sessions courts. Questions relating to post office appointments should be addressed to my right hon. friend the Postmaster General.

  Grant for Publication of Irish MSS.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the amount of the yearly grant paid to the Royal Irish Academy for the copying of Irish manuscripts and the production of an Irish dictionary; whether he can give the approximate date when an Irish dictionary will be issued by this body; and, if not, will he consider the advisability of transferring the grant to the Irish Texts Society.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No portion of the grant in aid is ear-marked for either of the objects mentioned. But in each year a sum of more than £300, on an average, is expended on the publication of Irish Texts, the occasional purchase of Irish MSS., and the collection and arrangement of material for the production of an Irish dictionary. The collection of material is now nearly completed and its preparation
  1238
  for dictionary arrangement has already commenced. It is impossible to fix, even approximately, the date when the dictionary will be issued. The reply to the concluding inquiry is in the negative.
  MR. TULLY: Why will not the right hon. Gentleman hand over this task of compiling the Irish dictionary to a more energetic body?
  (No answer was returned.)

  Michael Muldowney.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state when it is proposed to release Michael Muldowney, who was convicted of complicity in the Craughwell tragedy eighteen years ago in Sligo.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Lord Lieutenant, in whom is vested the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, desires me to say that the case of this convict will be specially considered by him on the 23rd January next.

  Business of the House—Indian Budget Debate.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he is now able to state when an opportunity will be given to resume the debate on the Indian Budget.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,E.): I hope to take the Indian Budget on Friday next. I cannot promise that the whole of the day shall be devoted to the Indian Budget, as I may have to ask the House to proceed with the Osborne Estate Bill, but the Indian Budget will be the first Order.
  MR. BRYCE: Will any other business be taken on Friday?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No; nothing else.

  China Squadron—Supply of New Zealand Coal.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydvil): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the New Zealand coal supplied to the China Squadron

  1239
  emits such volumes of smoke as to make signalling difficult, and often betrays the position of the ship using it long before her masts appear in sight.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): It is known that New Zealand coals emit more smoke than Welsh coal of good quality. The Commander-in-Chief has recently reported that the steaming qualities of the coal are excellent, and since the stokers have become accustomed to its use the quantity of smoke emitted is less than it was.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if his attention has been drawn to a memorandum recently issued to senior officers on the China Station in reference to the friable nature of Westport coal, and the large proportion of small coal it contains, and desiring that its value should be made known generally in order to anticipate complaints which may be mantle by officers unacquainted with this coal; and will he say if it is the practice of the Admiralty to anticipate complaints of stores supplied to the Navy.
  MR. PRETYMAN: It was recently pointed out to the Commander-in-Chief on the China Station that cargoes of Westport coal were, for various reasons, likely to comprise a larger proportion of small coal than is the case with Welsh coal, though the steaming qualities of the former had been found from experience not to be affected seriously thereby, and he was directed to inform commanding officers of H.M. Ships to this effect. It is probably to some memorandum issued by the Commander-in-Chief in pursuance of those directions that the hon. Member refers. The reply to the second part of the Question is in the negative.

  War Office Clothing Contracts.
  MR. CAWLEY: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether there is any provision in the tenders for clothing given out by the War Office that the work is to be carried out in factories; and, if so, if he will state whether a contract has been given out for 20,000
  1240
  garments to a contractor who has no factory, and is carrying it out by means of outworkers.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY, Lancashire, Westhoughton): In reply to the first part of the Question, there is a stringent clause to this effect in the clothing contracts. In reply to the second part, no such contract has been made.

  Commissions for Militia Officers.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that Militia officers who resigned and enlisted to get to South Africa lost the chance of obtaining commissions in the line without examination, as was done by their comrades who remained at home, he will consider the advisability of candidates both with and without service marks competing ill the same category, service marks being given according to length and character of service, and of removing the restrictions as to the counting of service marks from March last only, also of not limiting the time for the counting of such marks to March next.
  LORD STANLEY: The effect of the hon. Member's proposals would be to give the candidates claiming service marks an unfair advantage over the other competitors, and his suggestion to give service marks according to character of service is impracticable. I am not therefore prepared to make the alterations suggested. All candidates who have been in South Africa will have had nearly twelve months in which to prepare themselves before the examination in September, 1903.

  Army Canteens.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether it is intended to continue the present tenant system of canteens; whether it is proposed to introduce periodic examination by independent experts on behalf of the War Office; and if, in future, more encouragement will be given to local trade in these cases.
  LORD STANLEY: I am not at present in a position to give the hon. Member any information on this subject.
  MR. TULLY: When will the noble Lord be in a position?
  LORD STANLEY: On the earliest possible occasion.

  Uganda Railway Rates.
  MR. JOHNSTONE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the rates charged for bicycles, cricket and tennis bats, spears (tied or packed), and perambulators taken by passengers on the Uganda Railway are the same (1s. 4d. per ton per mile) as those stated in the revised classification of 15th November 1901, as applicable to goods traffic.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): The articles mentioned when carried by passenger trains are charged at passenger-luggage rates and not at those applicable to goods traffic.

  Income Tax Returns.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it has been brought to Isis notice that the Inland Revenue officers of the city have asked employers for lists of their employees liable to pay Income Tax and for the amount of their salaries; and will he say whether this course has his sanction.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. RITCHIE, Croydon): All employers are under a statutory obligation to furnish, when asked to do so, a list of those of their employees who are not entitled to exemption from income tax. They are not asked to state the salaries paid, except in the case of public companies. Even then the information is not pressed for, but, unless it be given, it may be necessary to have recourse to estimated, and possibly incorrect, assessments on the employees.

  Osborne Estate Bill—Will of Queen Victoria.
  MR. CALDWELL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will, prior to the Second Reading of the Osborne Estate
  1242
  Bill, lay upon the Table of the House and print and circulate as a Parliamentary Paper, an excerpt from the will of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria in so, far as it relates to that estate.
  MR. RITCHIE: The will of the Sovereign is not open to inspection, and. so no part of it can be made public. The purport of the Clauses relating to the Osborne estate is recited in the Preamble to the Bill.

  Co-operative Societies and Income Tax.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if co-operative societies registered under the Friendly Societies Acts pay taxes on dividends and profits.
  MR. RITCHIE: Societies which comply with the conditions of the Friendly Societies Acts are exempt from Income Tax, provided that they do not assure to any individual a sum of snore than £200 or an annuity of more than £30. But I understand that a co-operative society (that is, one for carrying on an industry, trade or business) cannot be registered-under the Friendly Societies Acts.
  MR. LAMBERT: Do these societies pay the tax on dividends as well as on profits?
  MR. RITCHIE: What societies—friendly or co-operative?
  MR. LAMBERT: Friendly.
  MR. RITCHIE: Friendly societies do, not pay income tax at all if they come-under the description I have given.

  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
  Ordered, that a message be sent to the Lords to request that their Lordships will be pleased to give leave to the Lord Welby to attend to be examined as a witness before the Select Committee on National Expenditure.— (Sir James Fergusson.)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT (1888) AMENDMENT (LONDON) (No. 2) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 1, to leave out the words: '(1) Nothing in this Act shall affect any endowment, or the discretion of any trustees in respect thereof: provided that."'—(Lord Edmund Fitzmaurice.)
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  MR. STEVENSONhoped that since last evening the Government had reconsidered their position, for it was evident that the words proposed to be left out were surplusage and ought to be omitted, or else they were capable of conveying a meaning not contemplated by the authors of the Clause. In his view they were mere surplusage, because there was nothing in the Act to affect any endowment apart from what was incidentally and necessarily connected with the operation of the Clause itself. If these words remained in the Bill their interpretation might be strained to mean something very much wider than the Government intended. The local education committee might be debarred from holding these inquiries, and if that were not intended, then certainly the words should be struck out. Words of that nature would not have been inserted without a definite meaning, and naturally the authority would seek to find one. The meaning that would probably be assigned to them would be that the local authority was debarred from doing certain work which was really a concomitant of the work they were called upon to perform under this Clause.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLbelieved that these words were important and desirable, and ought to be retained in the Clause. In common with all who had had an opportunity of observing the working of the schools, he attached the greatest value to the ancient endowments of the country. A Clause of this kind
  1244
  ought not to be inserted in the Bill without again placing on the Statute-book the opinion of Parliament as to the value of these ancient endowments. As he understood the words, the endowments would by then be left over to the Board of Education or Charity Commissioners to deal with them exactly as they now were, and the words proposed to be omitted would secure that neither one side nor the other was prejudiced. He felt the importance of maintaining these endowments and adapting them to the circumstances of the day, and he supported the retention of the words, because he believed that they were consistent with the great principle of the maintenance of the endowments and their adaptation to the circumstances of the age.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid it seemed to him it would be desirable for the Government to substitute the word "power" for "discretion" in the words proposed to be left out. He objected to the word "discretion," because it conferred on the trustees the power to discriminate as to what part of the money of a general trust should be devoted to repairs, and what part to the general education in the school. The word "power" would reserve to the trustees everything they were entitled to have.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid he wished to point out to the Committee that it was impossible to separate these words from the second Clause of the Bill as amended by the Government itself. By that Clause the duty of co-ordinating all forms of education was placed on the local education authority, and it appeared to him that if these words were left in they would limit, and, indeed, take away from the local education authorities whatever power to co-ordinate all forms of education might have been given them under the Clause. The Government had always put it forward that their great wish was to co-ordinate education, and inasmuch as Clause 2 was at present in a very lame conditions he hoped that on Report an opportunity would be found to strengthen it in that direction. The only argument for the words was

  1245
  that they were surplusage and unmeaning, or, as he ventured to describe them on the preceding night, pompous preamble; and in that case they ought to be struck out. If they had any meaning, it must be to the injury of Clause 2.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANScomplained that the Government had given them no explanation of the meaning of the words, and said that in his judgment they were very dangerous words. It was understood that whatever income the trustees or managers had for the purpose of maintaining elementary education was to be transferred to the local education authority. But now it was provided that nothing in the Bill was to affect any endowment, or the discretion of any trustee, in spite of the fact that in the very next words the Clause proceeded to affect the endowment. If the words were meaningless, they ought to be struck out; if they had any meaning, then they could only operate in a mischievous direction.
  MR. DUNCANsaid he had had an opportunity of going through the list of endowments in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and he had found that there was a considerable number of small endowments given specially to the schoolmasters and mistresses of the parish. Would they be taken into account in fixing the salary of the teacher? If so, it appeared to him that the parish would lose the benefit of these endowments. If the local authority had no power of using these endowments, say, for scholarships, and if they were all to be thrown into the hotch-pot, the small parishes would stiller a great loss.
  THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University)said that the salary of the schoolmaster or mistress was a matter for which provision had to be made by the local education authority, and any endowment for that purpose would go to the local authority, and be credited to the parish. The Clause avowedly dealt with the income of endowments, and did not touch the endowments themselves, or interfere with the discretion of the trustees. He believed the words proposed to be omitted were necessary, and would in no way prejudice future recipients of the incomes of the endowments.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that according to the Secretary to the Board of Education, the schoolmaster, in the cases cited by the hon. Member for the Otley Division, would be no better, and education would be no better, for the endowment; but the rates would be relieved.
  DR. MACNAMARAasked whether it would be in the competence of trustees to divert a part of the income from the endowment to the upkeep of the school buildings, or to lay it by to accumulate a building fund.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that if it were in the power of the trustees to deal with the money in that way now, it would equally be in their power hereafter. Whoever possessed a discretion in the application of the money would retain the discretion. Where the purposes for which the endowment was designed were met by the local authority, the endowment could be diverted to other purposes.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Then it is in the mind of the Government that part of the income of an ordinary educational endowment may be applied in the future to the up-keep of the fabric.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANS: Yes, they said so last night.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon)said that the meaning of the Clause was at last clear. Although he had read it repeatedly without getting an idea of its real meaning, he did at last get some glimmering, because the hon. Member for Tunbridge supported it, and thereby showed that it must have some thing to do with religious or sectarian educational endowments. The local authority, with the rates behind it, would always provide adequately for elementary education, and, therefore, the question was whether the endowment could be set free for the relief of rates, by being diverted to the maintenance of the fabric and the Sunday school. The Prime Minister appeared to dissent, but that was the only interpretation he could place on the words of the Secretary to the Board of Education when he told them that if secular education were adequately provided for by the

  1247
  local authority, the trustees would have unlimited discretion to use the money for purposes for which the local authority was not responsible. As that authority would have an inexhaustible fund in the form of the rates at its back, it would certainly be able to make adequate provision, and would not need to fall back on the endowments. That being so, the trustees would have discretion to use them for other than educational purposes, although they had been left I for the general instruction of the poor of the parish, and he ventured to assert that any such diversion would mean confiscating endowments given to the poor for the benefit of the richest church in the parish. He could only describe it as a gross act of confiscation, and the intention to permit it was not even disclosed by the Government until the guillotine had been fixed. They had had no time to consider it, for the knife was falling, and they could hear its clang; and under such embarrassing and unnerving circumstances they were unable to give proper attention to so far-reaching a proposal.
  SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSONsaid the arguments which had been put forward obviously had no relation to the words the Committee was considering, for the only meaning of the words was to leave the trustees with the discretion which the trust deed gave them.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the original bargain made by the Government was that the denominational managers were to bear the cost of structural repairs. Now there was another proposal that the local authority should pay the rent of the master's house, of which they heard nothing before. On that side an Amendment was put down that those School Board parishes which had built masters' houses out of loans should also have this contribution, but the Government closured that Amendment. Now they had another revelation to the effect that the trustees were to have a discretion to spend on repairs money winch had been left for the education of the children. The result would be that there would be
  1248
  no bargain at all; the denominational managers would get everything, and people who had left money to benefit the parish would have their money twisted and diverted to denominational purposes. There had recently been published in Warwickshire a list of educational endowments, and the gentleman who prepared it said that there were sixty-five parishes altogether, and in a great many of them the masters' houses, school buildings, as well as the endowments, had been left simply for the purpose of educating the children of the village independently of the Church altogether.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that as regarded the discretion of the managers he had stated early in the debate that where the managers had a discretion under the terms of the trust they could exercise it for the benefit of the school. They were bound by the terms of the trust to use the endowment for the benefit of the school, and if they found that certain purposes were adequately met by the local authority, then they might use the money in their hands for other purposes for which the local authority was not responsible, and for which they were responsible, but which were just as essential for the education of the parish as the supply of teachers and other purposes. Surely they had heard enough of the scandalous condition of the school buildings in many country districts. He ventured to say last night that he thought the managers would do not merely a justifiable but a very proper thing if they put all the money they had over in one year away for purposes for which it was not immediately required in order to establish a building fund with a view to an improvement of the school buildings in the future. He did not believe hon. Members opposite would dispute for a moment that that was a most important educational purpose, and would be entirely in consonance with the wishes of the founders.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he was afraid that a good many hon. Members did not know what the Clause meant. They had had a definite utterance from the hon. Baronet the Member for Preston, who said that the discretion of the trustees meant what was contained in the trust deeds. The Secretary to the

  1249
  Board of Education now said that it meant the discretion of the trustees to apply certain money for what they considered to be proper educational purposes, and if they considered that the educational purposes were properly supplied by the local authority, then they could use their discretion with reference to the disposal of the money within the terms of the trust deed. But by this Bill the education authority was bound to supply all the educational requirements, and therefore wherever there was an endowment given for the general support of the school, or to be devoted to general education, they gave the managers the first grip of that money for the purpose of doing the repairs, or else of laying it by for building Suppose they had an income of £50 from an endowment in perfectly general terms for the general support of the school, or to be devoted generally for the purposes of education. If only £20 were necessary the managers could take that £20 and say, "We have a discretion in this matter, and we will place the other £30 to a building fund to he used next year." That was the meaning of this Clause. That was the reason for the alteration of this Clause. The Bishop of London shed some light upon this question at the recent meeting in the Albert Hall. He said that the weak spot of their bargain was the repairs, and lie implored them to try what they could do in the House of Lords to deal with this difficulty.
  "What a terrible thing it would be," said the Bishop, "if many schools were compelled to close their doors from sheer inability to need their expenses after all this trouble and care with reference to the Education Bill."
  He thought that speech furnished the reason for the Clause. The bargain was now being departed from. The real meaning of this Clause was that they wanted to give the managers the right to put their hands into the endowments in order to relieve them of a burden which they pretended ought to be placed upon them by this Bill.
  MR. OSMOND WILLIAMSsaid that charities and endowments had been diverted from their original channels, and had been used in support of voluntary schools. He could give as
  1250
  an instance the Towyn Charity, which was in no way a Church charity, which had for many years been used to carry on Church schools. This charity was originally left for the poor, but there being practically no poor in that small township for which it was left, the Commissioners, by a decree, diverted it to two Church schools. The Joint Education Committee drafted a scheme which the Charity Commissioners printed and approved of. It went on to the Education Department, and while it was there the Duke of Devonshire was petitioned by the clergy not to proceed with the publication of the scheme, and he yielded. Consequently the children had had no benefit, but the clergy simply had to find £40 less. There was no mention in the Bill of such income, and if it was not dealt with the result would be that the parsons would still be getting £40 per annum, which presumably they might use as they pleased for either maintenance or repairs. It would be a shame if parsons were allowed to receive endowments intended for the poor and utilise them for purposes which in no way benefited the public.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There appear to be some extraordinary misconceptions about this Clause. The hon. Gentleman opposite has quoted the speech of the Bishop of London, and mentioned something about a bargain. I know nothing about any such bargain. I have made no bargain, and that is a phrase which I absolutely decline to recognise. This proposal deals with endowments, and the whole object of the Clause is to make provision in the case where the existing endowment makes no provision. Where the existing endowment makes provision we leave the discretion wholly unaltered, but it is possible under the Bill that a ease may arise with which it is impossible for the trustees to deal, and we therefore provide in this Clause a very simple remedy to deal with it. If the trust deeds give the discretion now to distribute the money they retain it, and if they have not got it we give it to them. The hon. Member asks whether this Bill is intended to restore to the public or the poor or to the rich money which has been improperly diverted. If it has been improperly diverted go to the Law Courts and get it

  1251
  put right. This Bill is not intended to survey and reform, so far as reform is required, the whole field of endowments. Other Acts have been passed for the purpose. All we do is not in any sense to revise endowments, but to meet the single case in which the discretion bestowed by law in the trust deeds is interfered with under the Bill.
  MR. BRYCEpointed out that the Bill now made new provision out of the public funds for purposes which the endowments formerly served. That changed the whole thing and put a new face upon it. It enabled the trustees to divert funds which were given for education to the relief of, what? In the first place, of the rates, or, if they pleased, of the subscribers. This was the natural result of this Clause. The object of this proposal was to divert endowments given for the education of the poor and apply them for the relief of the rich.
  COLONEL DENNYhoped that as a mere Scotchman he would be pardoned for intervening in an English debate, but what he desired was information as to the number of schools affected by the discussion in progress. Judging by the anxiety displayed by the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs and the hon. and learned Member below him, one would think that if not the whole, at any rate the great majority, of the voluntary schools in this country were endowed. He understood that was not so; that out of 14,750 schools or thereabouts only some 2,200 had any endowments at all, therefore upwards of 12,000 schools would still require to provide all repairs out of absolute subscriptions. Then, again, of the 2,200 schools, a certain proportion had their endowments specially devoted to various objects, which would mean the handing of these endowments over to the local education authority, so that when all was said and done the question under discussion only related to a small minority of the schools, and again, in most of these eases, the endowments were of the most paltry description—only a few pounds in many, cases. He did not think, therefore, that the evil was widespread, or that the Government merited the condemnation that had been showered upon them.
  MR. JOHN WILSONsaid he wished to call the attention of the Secretary of the Education Department to two charities which were referred to in the reports made to the Charity Commissioners in connection with an inquiry held in every parish wholly or partly within the administrative county of Durham, into endowments subject to the provisions of the Charitable Trusts Acts, 1853 to 1894. He would read the statements of the purposes for which they were left. Those cases would afford an object lesson to show what the Government really meant. The first ease was referred to in these terms:—
  "From the recitals in a Bond bearing date 12th October, 1691, it appears that the Rev. Henry Greswold gave £100 to John Raine, Henry Eden, Cuthbert Swainston and Cuthbert Raine, to be laid out in the purchase of lands or an annuity, the profits to be paid towards a yearly salary for the schoolmaster of Gainford, for teaching the poor children of the said parish.…Forthis payment [the yearly interest] the schoolmaster instructs in reading, writing, and accounts, six children recommended by the churchwardens, from any part of the parish, exclusively of the chapelry of Barnard Castle."
  He asked the Secretary of the Board of Education to state whether this money, which was left for a specific purpose, would now be devoted to the repair or renovation of the school. If it was justly applied in harmony with the view of the donor it ought to be applied to the teacher's salary. The other case referred to in the report was as follows:—
  "William Dent, the elder of Brightwell, in the county of Berkshire, clockmaker, by Indenture of Lease and Release, dated .29th and 30th April, 1706, assigned, released and confirmed to John. Dent and William Dent the younger, their heirs and assigns, two several messuages or tenements and premises, situate in Cost Street, within the parish of Stepney, and County of Middlesex, in trust, for the educating of such poor boys as should be born in the town of Barnard Castle, in the bishopric of Durham, with power to sell the same premises, and to lay out the produce of such sale in purchasing other houses or lands of the like value in the county of York or bishopric of Durham.… The sum of £133 is now in the hands of Miss Lee of Staindrop, daughter of the late Sir John Lee, into whose hands it probably came as connected with the family of Huchinson. Miss Lee pays £5 6s. 8d. yearly, as the interest. For many years she paid this sum to William Lonsdale, a private schoolmaster in Barnard Castle, teaching in his own house, for which he taught ten boys free. For the last three or four years Lonsdale has been unable to teach school, and Miss Lee has

  1253
  paid the same yearly sum to the treasurer of the National School in Barnard Castle, where ten children, named by the minister and churchwarden, are taught free of any charge."
  He wished to know how the money in this case was now to be applied. The Report from which he had quoted was full of similar cases. On what principle of justice was the money to be diverted from the purpose for which it was originally left?
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the very object of this Clause was to prevent the money from being diverted. The obligations of the trustees remained just where they were. The hon. Gentleman need not be in any alarm that the Clause would divert any money from the purposes for which they were intended.
  MR. JOHN WILSONasked the right hon. Gentleman to elaborate the answer and make it plainer. Would he state to what purpose these endowments would be devoted?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It would be quite impossible and quite improper to answer that question here. It will rest with the Courts of Law to decide whether the money is being properly applied in case of dispute as to any particular trust. It would be perfectly monstrous for us to give any statement on the subject. All that we can do is to leave the trusts as they are.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN: This is a very old controversy. We are quite familiar with it in the country to which the hon. Member for the Kilmarnock Burghs and I belong. We have had a great deal to do with this very question. The right hon. Gentleman says there is no proposal to divert money from the original purpose, but the case is this. The circumstances are changed by your legislation. Supposing a pious founder leaves a large sum of money for a certain public purpose, which is otherwise not provided for in the parish, that goes on for a great many years, then Parliament says this public purpose shall be the duty of the whole community, and it is so enacted. This public duty is imposed on the whole community
  1254
  throughout the country. What, then, is the effect on the endowment which was given for this particular parish? Simply to relieve the community of the duty which Parliament thinks, and which, by the law of the land, ought to be placed upon them. But in this case there are two different classes of people who will contribute to the maintenance of the school. There are the ratepayers who are for the first time introduced under this Bill, and the other parties to the matter are the denominational subscribers—managers, or whatever you may call them. If there is to be adequate provision by the local education authority for secular education, for the ordinary maintenance of education, and for the maintenance of the school, and if that is prescribed by the Act for all the country in similar cases, then what is to be done with this money? We are told now that it should be handed over to the subscribers to relieve them of the duty [Cries of "No" and "Hear, hear!"] which they undertook and upon their undertaking of which they have been allowed to have the influence they have in this educational matter. The right hon. Gentleman has always been talking of the scheme of the Bill. The scheme of the Bill is this, that because the fabric of the school building belongs in certain cases—some of us don't admit so much—to a Church, therefore that Church is entitled to a certain standing in the administration of the education of the parish, and is entitled to enforce its particular views. That is the whole scheme of the Bill, but if that power is continued or conferred upon the Church and subscribers, and then if the endowments are employed for the purpose of relieving them of some of the obligations they have incurred, you ipso facto invalidate the bargain, notwithstanding what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and the condition on which the whole Bill rests, so far as elementary education is concerned. The right hon. Gentleman has said that this Clause is not to divert endowments, but to continue things as they were. You may continue things as they were, in one sense, but the circumstances to which those arrangements applied have totally changed or passed away.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid he had some sympathy with the Bishop of London, who was under the impression that he had made a bargain. It showed the danger Spiritual Peers might fall into when they spoke in commercial metaphors. The real essence of the matter was this. There was £120,000 of public money to be given for public purposes in those different parishes. Under this Bill, the circumstances would be entirely different. It was quite true that in future they would be devoted to educational purposes, on the basis that the Church of England got four-sixths of the management For this it would contribute the building rent free, and keep it in repair. His complaint was that this public education money in future would be used for private denominational ends. If the Church people made a bargain, let them keep it. The Parliamentary Secretary said they could put their money by. Yes, but don't let them put by public money. This was a very important matter. It was another example of how the Church of England was going back upon its bargain. They had got all that they bargained for, but they were not giving all they bargained to give. He thought if the Committee had a free hand they would be anxious that this public money should not serve denominational ends, as it did under the Clause as it stood.
  MR. JAMES HOPEsaid that so far as he knew the denominational managers repudiated the idea
  that they had entered into any bargain. What they said was that terms had been imposed on them by the Government, and they thought the terms were hard. They were not satisfied with them at first, and they were not satisfied with them now.
  MR. HERBERT LEWIScalled attention to a charity in a parish which he knew, the greater part of which was to be devoted to educational purposes. It was originally founded by a Nonconformist, but it had now, after being in the Court of Chancery, become connected with the Church of England. In that case, what was to be done with the money? How was the money to be spent for educational purposes? The county would be responsible for maintaining the school, and that being so, the money should only be used for repair of the school building, which would not be required for twenty or thirty years. The population was not likely to increase, and the money would accumulate. Surely it was roost unfair that in regard to a great number of parishes the money should be used for relieving existing subscribers. If his right hon. friend went to a division he would support him.
  (3.30.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 172; Noes, 93. (Division List No. 542.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Carew, James Laurence

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manch'r

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Finch, George H.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cecil, Evelyn (Ashton Manor)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A. (Worc.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Chapman, Edward

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Flower, Ernest

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christeh.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Forster, Henry William

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Coddington, Sir William

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S.W.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gardner, Ernest

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Garfit, William

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Bond, Edward

  Denny, Colonel

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Dewar, Sir T.R.(Tower Hamlets)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'ry SEdm'nds

  Bull William James

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Maxwell Rt Hn Sir H E(Wigt'wn

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hardy , Laurence(Kent, Ashford

  Milvain, Thomas

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  More, Robt Jasper (Shropshire)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Smith, H.C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Helder, Augustus

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Spear, John Ward

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Stock, James Henry

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Stroyan, John

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Myres, William Henry

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Jebb, Sir Richard (Claverhouse

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Tully, Jasper

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Valentia, Viscount

  Kemp, George

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Knowles, Lees

  Pryce-Jones Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Purvis, Robert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Pym, C. Guy

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. William Edw. H

  Randles, John S.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rankin, Sir James

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Lockie, John

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh, W

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Harwood, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)

  Bell, Richard

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Shackleton, David James

  Brigg, John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Burt, Thomas

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Caldwell, James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  Cameron, Robert

  Jones David Brynmor (Swansea

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lambert, George

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Langley, Batty

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Tennant, Harold John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Wallace, Robert

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Logan, John William

  Wason, Eugene

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Lough, Thomas

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morley, Rt. Hon John (Montrose

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth.

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Rea, Russell

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Grant, Corrie

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Rigg, Richard

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid he wished to move, as an
  1258
  Amendment, "Provided that no part of the income of the endowment should be

  1259
  devoted to the payment of such repairs as under this Act are to be paid by the managers, provided also that."
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that the Amendment of the hon. Member was really an objection to the whole Clause. The object of the Clause was to enable the money to be used for "other purposes," and it had been discussed the previous day and this day on that ground.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that surely there were many other purposes covered by the words besides that purpose—such as scholarships or improvements in the school in other ways.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that the proposed Amendment raised the point which they had been discussing for two days.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that what they had been discussing were the possibilities of the application of the money to other purposes, among which repairs might find a place. But it was not in the Clause; it was merely suggested that the trustees at their discretion might spend the money on something besides repairs.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that the discussion ranged round the point that part of the money might be used by the trustees for the purpose of forming a building fund. Now the hon. Member for North West Norfolk proposed to say that no part of the money should be used for hat purpose.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that many of the endowments were of considerable amount—much larger than could be exhausted by repairs—and, therefore, it was clear that they must refer to many cases besides repairs.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Then, under the Clause, the balance will go to the local education authority. The money will be apportioned between the local education authority and certain expenses which the managers will have to incur; and the only expenses they will have to incur will be for the upkeep of the school buildings.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid that the Government did not understand the Clause
  1260
  in that way, because, instead of handing the money over to the local education authority, the managers claimed to have the right to retain it.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I cannot conceive any discussion on the hon. Member's Amendment which would differ in the slightest degree from the discussion the Committee has had.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid he quite, agreed as far as the discussion was concerned; but he presented a concrete proposal.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I cannot accept a number of Amendments raising the same point.
  MR. MIDDLEMOREasked if it was not a point of whether the Chair was to rule in this House or not.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that the managers might wish to have a better equipment than the county authority deemed themselves justified in sanctioning. In that and other ways, the managers might desire to spend the money.
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is possible that the words of the hon. Member's Amendment may be better than the words of the Amendment which has been rejected. It is not, however, for me to choose. All I say is that it appears to me that a discussion on the hon. Member's Amendment must cover precisely the same ground which has been already covered: and, for that reason, I am obliged to rule the Amendment out of order.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the Amendment he desired to move was short, was easily understood, and had not been covered by any previous discussion. It was to insert in line 2, after "where" the words "after the first day of January, 1901." His object was to fix the trust deeds and the provisions affecting endowments in the condition in which they were on January 1st, 1901. He moved his Amendment for this reason. During the course of last year the Bill was being negotiated by the bishops and Convocation on the one hand and the Government on the other. It was perfectly fair to say that the Bill

  1261
  was on the tapis during the whole of last year; and, therefore, the matter ought to be discussed from the position in which it was at the beginning of last year. That was why he proposed to fix a date. He might be asked why he put in any limiting words at all, and he would answer that it was because of the speech of tire Bishop of London on Friday last. Hon. Members who wished to understand the inner workings of the Bill should read the speeches of the Bishop of London, the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, and others at the Albert Hall meeting. The Bishop was dealing with tire Kenyon-Slaney Amendment, and he said he had been advised by competent authority—the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich let the eat out of the bag by saying that lie had been advised by the Government—that the trust deeds would not be changed, and that, where there was an appeal to the bishops, that appeal would still lie. Then the Lord Bishop said that he pressed that schools which had no trust deeds should have an opportunity of having trust deeds on the lines of the old trust deeds, before the Bill came into operation. The suggestion of the Bishop was that there should be new trust deeds, or altered trust deeds, in order that there might be an appeal to the bishops; but he thought that trust deeds ought not to be altered with a view to this Bill. They ought to remain as they were before tire Bill was introduced. It might be said that a trust deed could not be altered. In many cases trust deeds could not be altered; but in cases where the donor was still alive they could, in certain circumstances, be altered. They ought, however, to take the position as it was on the 1st January, 1901, without any manipulation of the trust deeds; and no opportunity should be given of altering the status quo with a view to legislation.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 2, after the word 'where,' to insert the words 'on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and one.'"—(Mr. Samuel Evans.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the hon. Gentleman had discussed the speech
  1262
  of the Bishop of London, the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman for the Newport Division of Shropshire, and the Albert Hall meeting; but he had not said much with regard to the new Clause, which had nothing whatever to do with the Kenyon-Slaney Amendment. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that it was within the power of anyone, after a trust had been founded, to alter it at a moment's notice.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid his statement was directly opposite to that.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not think that there was any case in which the deed could be altered, and, in cases where the deed could not be altered, the hon. Gentleman admitted that his Amendment was unnecessary. He presumed the Bishop of London was referring to cases where there were no trust deeds; but, whether he was or was not, the Bishop was not a legal authority, and never posed as a legal authority. He was not aware that it was possible in any case to alter a trust deed, unless there was a provision in it enabling a modification to be made. If there were such a provision it ought to remain. He doubted whether there was any such case; but supposing it was theoretically possible for a man to put money in trust with a provision enabling him to alter the trust deed, it should remain in that modification. If a donor deliberately intended that lie should have power to modify the trust, why should be be deprived of that power? If no such power were embodied in a trust, then the trust could not be altered, and the hon. Gentlemen's Amendment would have no practical effect. In these circumstances he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would not press it further.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he did not think that the Amendment would be so futile in its character as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine. Analogous cases arose under the Burials Act. It very often happened that a piece of land was given by the squire of the parish for educational purposes, or as a burial ground. A deed was not prepared, because it was not regarded as necessary; and the ground was utilized

  1263
  for the purpose for which it was given. Then an Act of Parliament was introduced, which was regarded as curtailing the privileges and prerogatives of the clergy of the parish. They discovered that there was no trust deed; and they went to the donor or his heir and said: "Will you make a trust deed in the form we require?" He would give a case in point, which came before the Court of Appeal, and, therefore, the facts were judicially established. A piece of land was given for burial purposes; no trust deed was prepared, as it was not regarded as necessary; and a great deal of parochial money was expended in fencing. The Burials Act came in, and the clergyman of the parish went to the landowner and said: "We want a trust deed;" and a trust deed was prepared, under which the Dean of Bangor, the Archdeacon of the district, and the rural Dean deprived the parish of the property on which parochial money had been spent. What was to prevent similar transactions being carried out under the present Bill? He had been examining the Charity Commissioners' report on charities in Wales; and he found—he would not say the majority, but a great number—of trusts for educational purposes had no deeds at all, because they were not regarded as necessary. Now that the time had come for carrying out the suggestion of the Bishop of London, the Prime Minister had repudiated it. The right hon. Gentleman came down to the House, and, in a speech which was made after advice, said that this was the authentic interpretation of the Kenyon-Slaney Clause—that they must get new trust deeds. That was what the Government wanted, and what had been done in several cases until it was stopped by the Courts of Law. What had been done with regard to the Burials Acts could be done with regard to these endowments. The Government were prepared to take "first use and wont" with regard to these endowments for their own purposes, and those opposed to the Government wished to do the same for their purpose. If these endowments had been devoted to educational purposes, why should they be diverted into another channel now? After all, the landowner was the arbiter; he could direct at any time what the trust should be. He simply had to say to the clergyman: "We want a trust deed," and the
  1264
  clergyman had it drawn as he wished. The local squire knew perfectly well that if in the future the endowment was used for the repair of the fabric and for building, he would be relieved in pocket pro tanto, and he naturally would prefer to see it used for that purpose. What they wished was that it should be made impossible for the trust to be diverted from the purpose for which it was originally intended. He knew of one endowment which was given for education, reading and writing, and "teaching Christian principles." It was a sectarian endowment. The Christian principles meant in that case the principles of the Church of England, but reading and writing came first. What would happen now? There was no trust deed, but the Squire, who represented the original donor, would soon discover that it was necessary to have a trust deed. He would have the bishop's sanction. The Bishop of London would tell him he must do it, and everyone in the Church of England obeyed the Bishop except the clergy, and although reading and writing were put first in that endowment it would all be used in the future for the repair of the fabric and for setting up a Church of England Sunday-school. The ratepayer would be no better off. So long as the ratepayers were not bankrupt the rate could be used for repairing the fabric. Where were the agricultural objectors? They were constantly talking about the burdens on the rates, and here they were allowing endowments to the extent of £120,000 to be taken away from the relief of the rates for a purely sectarian purpose. But no one had any confidence in the agricultural party since, if he might use the phrase without any Parliamentary breach of order, Mr. Chaplin's flying squadron of agriculturists ran away on the fight of the one half or one quarter. The agricultural party would see now that the rates were used to keep up the fabric, and the farmer, who was so heavily burdened by the rates, would see this £120,000 devoted to what were called Christian principles, and reading and writing would be left to care of themselves.
  (4.8.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 100; Noes, 199. (Division List No. 543.)

  AYES.

  Abraham William (Rhondda)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rigg, Richard

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead

  Harwood, George

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Ashton, Thomas (Gair

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Runciman, Walter

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Shackleton, David James

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Bell, Richard

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brigg, John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Brown, George E. (Edinburgh

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Burt, Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C.R (Northants

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Langley, Batty

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Caldwell, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cameron, Robert

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leng, Sir John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Logan, John William

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Wallace, Robert

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Wason, Eugene

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dilke, Rt Hon. Sir Charles

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Edwards, Frank

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Morley, Rt Hon. John (Montrose

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Grant, Corrie

  Philipps, John Wynford

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Rea, Russell,

  Mr. Samuel Evans and

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Mr. Trevelyan.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Godson, Sir Agustus Frederick

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A (Worc.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Chapman, Edward

  Gore, Hn C.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Coddington, Sir William

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bain,, Colonel James Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Graham,, Henry Robert

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Balcarres, Lord

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Denny, Colonel

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Gretton, John

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W(Leeds

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Beresford, Lord Charles William

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Bignold, Arthur

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Helder, Augustus

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Bond, Edward

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Finch, George H.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Fison, Frederick William

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Campbell, Rt Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Carew, James Laurence

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Flower, Ernest

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Forster, Henry William

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.

  Kemp, George

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Gardner, Ernest

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Garfit, William

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  1266

  1267

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Kimber, Henry

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stock, James Henry

  Knowles, Lees

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Stroyan, John

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Percy, Earl

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Lecky, Rt Hon. William Edw, H.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

  Leigh Bennett, Henry Currie

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Lockie, John

  Pym, C. Guy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Randles, John S.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Rankin, Sir James

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Ritchie, Rt Hon Chas. Thomson

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Warde, Colonel, C. E.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E.(Taunt'n

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Round, Right Hon. James

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H.E (Wigt'n

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R. (Bath

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Wylie, Alexander

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Myers, William Henry

  Spear, John Ward

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther

  MR. SOARES (Devonshire,)moved the substitution of the words "original trusts" for the words "trusts or other provisions." The object of the Amendment was to render to Cæsar the things that were Cæsar's, and at the same time to prevent Cæsar annexing the property of other people. Many elementary denominational schools enjoyed incomes from charities to which they were not entitled by the terms of the trust deeds. The position had arisen through the partial or total failure of the objects of the trust. When such a failure happened the trustees went to Charity Commissioners for a scheme, and usually the education of the district was decided upon as being a laudable object to which the money might be devoted. In days gone by, the Charity Commissioners, when maturing schemes with regard to trusts of that nature, had been more influenced by the question of education than by denominational zeal; otherwise, instead of giving the money to the managers, they would have given it direct to the rector and the church-wardens. But if the Clause were carried in its present form, the income arising from such trusts would he divided into
  1268
  two portions, one going to the maintenance of the school, and the other being claimed by the manager for the repairs. That, in his opinion, would be an entirely improper state of affairs, because it had to be remembered that all the money spent by the managers under the Bill would be spent on denominational purposes, whereas the money under these trusts was not originally left for such purposes. By this Clause the aim of the pious founder would not be carried out, nor would the schemes of the Charity Commissioners be strictly complied with. When these schemes the were framed, the Charity Commissioners could not possibly have anticipated that the whole of the maintenance of the elementary schools would be paid out of public funds; therefore it was not fair that the income from these trusts should be divided in the manner he had indicated. Since 1870, all such trusts had been devoted to secondary education, but prior to 1870 there were a great many applied to elementary education. He could not say the amount of money that was involved, as the Charity Commissioners were too busy to supply a Return, but that was simply another instance of the

  1269
  way in which the Committee were legislating in the dark on this Bill. The proposal of the Government afforded a further illustration of the efforts of the denominations to get hold of money out of the public purse. They had been foiled in their attempts to get the school fees, and to avoid their liability for the repairs of the schoolhouse, but they had succeeded in getting the rents of the schoolmasters' houses towards the cost of repairs, and he was afraid that under this Clause they would succeed in getting for denominational purposes money which was never intended to be so used.
  Amendment proposed.—
  "In line 2, to leave out the words 'trusts or other provisions,' and insert the words 'original trusts.'"—(Mr. Soares.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part, of the Clause."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that if he rightly understood the object of the hon. Member's Amendment it was of a somewhat alarming character. It was proposed to go behind the Charity Commissioners and the Education Department for the last, thirty or thirty-three years, to rip up all the schemes made in that period, and, so far as was possible to work the schemes of the original trusts into the arrangement of tins Clause. He really thought it a monstrous proposition. He could not at the moment state the amount of money involved, but there were at least 1500 elementary schools working under schemes made since 1869, and the pro-position that at this period of the discussion, and in a Bill already so large and complicated, they should undo the work of the Commissioners who had been working all this time for the benefit of education, was one which he could hardly think the hon. Member was serious in putting before the Committee.
  MR. M'KENNAsaid the right hon. Gentleman had forgotten that this alarming proposition was contained in the Clause which they were now discussing, for it proposed in the case of all, those elementary schools to rip up the schemes and alter them to the extent suggested under this Clause. The hon.
  1270
  Member was proposing now to do something which was quite different to the schemes under the Charity Commissioners—and this proposal was merely an Amendment of the scheme suggested by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education in his own Clause. He did not think the hon. Gentleman had done justice to the Amendment moved by his hon. friend. Hitherto the Charity Commissioners had been called in to make new schemes where others had failed, but now it appeared that the schemes of the Charity Commissioners had also failed and it was necessary to provide something fresh. His hon. friend asked that in making this fresh provision they should go back again to the intentions of the pious founders and not hold themselves bound by the schemes of the Charity Commissioners. To those who looked upon the public interest and the interest of the Church of England as one and the same thing, an Amendment of this sort, of course, would not commend itself, but they ought to look to the public interest apart from the Church of England. They should ask that these trusts, intended to further some public object, now that they were being ripped up, should once again be considered, and, having regard to the intentions of the pious founders, should be used for some public interest and not necessarily for the Church of England interest. Where the Church of England had been the sole supporter of education in a parish this might be reasonable, but the Church of England no longer occupied that position, because the public had come in, and it was, therefore, reasonable that the trusts should be reconsidered and devoted to purposes purely public.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he found himself in complete disagreement with the Amendment of his hon. friend. The effect of this Amendment would be to go back to the original schemes, and in many cases the original purposes of the trusts had fallen into desuetude. The Charity Commissioners, although he did not agree with all they did, had modernised the trusts on fairly commonsense lines, and the bulk of the money affected was now applied to the purposes of education. Therefore, to go back to

  1271
  the original purposes seemed to him to be not a very practical proposal and it would rob elementary education of something like £100,000 a year. That being so he could not support the Amendment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he agreed with the Amendment of his hon. friend in favour of the pious founders. They said that this money should be given to the poor. If they diverted this money into its original channel, where did they rob education? All they said was that the ratepayers who could afford to pay should bear the burden of education; and that, to the extent to which they lost the endowment, that money should be made up out of the rates. On the other hand they would be giving by this Amendment to the people who could not afford to pay rates—that was the poorest of the poor in the district—money which was originally given to ameliorate their misery. Take the case of the charity he had referred to, given for the purpose of erecting cottages for the poor. By some mysterious process the Charity Commissioners had diverted that money to pay a sewing mistress. That was no doubt an excellent purpose, but it was not the object for which the charity was established. What would happen under this Amendment? They would get back to the old principle of cottage homes. Would the sewing class suffer? No, for it would be just the reverse, because the rates would pay for a sewing mistress. Why did his hon. friend wish to rob the poor in Wales for the purpose of providing sewing mistresses, for any other purpose? He stood for the pious founders in this matter. He had got an excellent authority in this matter, namely, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley, who some time ago denounced a similar proposal to the one now made by the Government as one which was using money originally given for the poor for the establishment of scholarships and schools; and the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that this was simply robbing the poor. And the right hon. Gentleman the Member of Bordesley was right. He was then denouncing the utilisation of money given for the poor for the purposes of scholastic institutions. He
  1272
  said those charities were the private property of the poor of the country, and if they could show that one single farthing of that money was applied to other purposes it was a robbery of the poor. Now the Government were promoting a Bill for the robbery of the poor. This money was not given for the church organ or for sewing mistresses, or for relieving the rich subscribers to voluntary schools, but for the purposes of the poor, and this proposal now made by the Government was one of the schemed denounced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley as a gross robbery of the poor. A good many of these endowments included sites and property allotted by the Enclosure Commissioners under the Allotments Act. He knew a case of that kind where the site given was common land which the poor of the parish had a right and freehold in. That land was given for the purpose of a school for any sect or denomination, but for the whole parish. What was done with it? A deed was prepared for it under which it was given to the National Society. This was property which belonged to the whole parish. A Committee of Management was set up, all of whom had to be members of the Church of England. That was an instance of the diversion of trust property from its original purpose. He did not say anything about the particular form of the Amendment, but he was voting for the substance, and he did not cavil at the words of the Amendment like the hon. Member for North Camberwell. His leader in this matter was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley, and acting upon the great principled he had laid down in this House, he proposed to go into the Lobby to support the Amendment of his hon. friend.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he did not think his hon. friends were right in supposing that there were many cases in which endowments had been diverted form educational purposes. The Amendment was really directed to cased in which the Charity Commissioners' schemes had sectarianised trusts when this was not intended by the founders. It was from the point of view that

  1273
  he proposed to support the Amendment. It was very difficult for him to raise the question conveniently upon this Amendment, but that was the fault of the conditions under which they were discussing this Bill. If they had had any prospect of dealing with this question by another Clause they would have done so. They had to take such chances as the indulgence of an autocratic Government gave to them, and his hon. friend had taken this opportunity with his Amendment, which submitted to the Committee the fact that there were a good many trusts intended for the parish generally which had been made sectarian in their character. If the Government would propose another Amendment dealing with this injustice, he believed his hon. friend would be willing to withdraw his Amendment, but if they persisted in this non possumus then he would have to divide the Committee.
  MR. LOGANasked the Hon. Member not to press the Amendment. It was really not a practical Amendment. He was on a committee that administered an endowment in so far as it related to school purposes, the scheme under which they acted having been sanctioned seven or eight years ago by the Charity Commissioners. If the money were to go to the poor a great deal might be said
  for that, although he was inclined to think that the best plan was to pay the poor good wages so that they might be able to find various things for themselves. But that would not be the effect of the Amendment. The pious donor was a very ambitious man, and he believed that it was possible to found a cathedral in a place which had about 300 inhabitants, and he also desired to found a university of music. Therefore if is hon. friend's Amendment were carried the money would have to be diverted to the insane idea of building a cathedral and establishing a university of music in that small place.
  MR. SOARESsaid his hon. friend did not quite understand the Amendment. In cases where the original object of a trust had been extinguished what would happen would be tins. The Charity Commissioners would have to formulate a new scheme which would not be sectarian or denominational. If the Government would give any indication that they would re-consider the matter he would not divide the Committee, but if he got an absolute non possumus he would take the vote.
  (4.48.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 218; Noes, 93. (Division List No. 544.).

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Denny, Colonel

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Butcher, John George

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Arrol, Sir William

  Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Carew, James Laurence

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh'e)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A (Worc.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chapman, Edward

  Finch, George H.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Charrington, Spencer

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Bignold, Arthur

  Coddington, Sir William

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Bond, Edward

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Flower, Ernest

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Forster, Henry William

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lockie, John

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Garfit, William

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts

  Lowe, Francis William

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Smith ,Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Greene, Sir E W (B'rt S. Edm'nds

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Spear, John Ward

  Gretton, John

  Middlemore John Throgmorton

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Halsey. Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stock, James Henry

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J .G.(Oxf'd Univ

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Helder, Augustus

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tomlinson, Sir William Edw. M.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Myers, William Henry

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Tully, Jasper

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Percy, Earl

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E (Taunton

  Kemp, George

  Purvis, Robert

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Randles, John S.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Kimber, Henry

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Knowles, Lees

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Lawson, John Grant

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Lecky, Rt. Hn William Edw. H.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lambert, George

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Langley, Batty

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Edwards, Frank

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Leng, Sir John

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lloyd-George, David

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Lough, Thomas

  Bell, Richard

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Brigg, John

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Grant, Corrie

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Burt, Thomas

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Caldwell, James

  Harwood, George

  Moss, Samuel

  Cameron, Robert

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Palmer, Sir Charles M (Durham)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hutton, Alfred E. Morley

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Price, Robert John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Rea, Russell

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  1276

  1277

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Rigg, Richard

  Tennant, Harold John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Shackleton, David James

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wallace, Robert

  Shipman, Dr John G.

  Wason, Eugene

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Mr. Soares and Mr.

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Charles Allen.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid the proviso put down by the Government meant that there should be no opportunity for the Board of Education or the local authority to come in unless here was in the trust deed power to spend the money, either in whole or in part, for purposes for which the local authority was liable to pay. It retained to the benefit of the manager, that very large class of trust funds under trust deeds which were general in their terms. He could not think that it was the intention of the Government to hand user that large class of trust funds entirely to the discretion of the trustees. If in line three the word "must" was retained instead of "may," it came to this, that whenever a trust gave power to the trustees to apply part or all the income in the payment of the salaries of the teachers or the fees of scholars at any time in connection with the maintenance of the school as distinguished from the repair of the fabric—in these cases there should be a proper inquiry, at which the County Council should have something to say as to what they thought would be a proper distribution of the money the final decision, of course, resting with the Board of Education. The Secretary to the Board of Education had laid down the monstrous doctrine that whenever the least discretion was left to the trustees, say of an income of £100, for the education of the poor in such and such a parish, the trustees could withhold the whole of that money except the small sum for the education of the poor children of the parish. All he wanted was that the County Council should be heard on the one side, and the trustees on the other, the Board of Education being the umpire. He begged the Government and the Committee to consider the Amendment in a favourable spirit. He was quite sure that what he desired to do in the matter of trust funds was to do fair justice to the
  1278
  trustees on the one hand and the county authority on the other. He begged to move as an Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  In line 3, to leave out the word 'must,' and insert the word 'may.'"—(Mr. Whiteley.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'must' stand part of the Clause."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the Amendment really went back on a matter which had already been discussed and which the Committee had decided some time ago. The object of the whole Clause was to keep endowments in their present condition, giving to any body of trustees who had a discretion the right to retain that discretion, but also is taking care that where there was no discretion the money should go in such direction as had been indicated in the trust deed. The hon. Member proposed in every case that the Board of Education should determine in what proportions the sum of money should be spent, partly for the purposes of the local authority, and partly on those of the managers. The Amendment ran counter to the intentions of the Government and could not be accepted. If the money was being improperly hoarded by the managers, there where sufficient means of making them account for it.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that this was only another illustration of the method by which the Government were dealing with this question. In the case of endowments where the trustees were fettered and must give the money to the repair of buildings, then the Government did not desire to interfere; but where there was a discretion, the Government came in and enabled the trustees to help educational work in the parish if they chose to do so. His hon. friend said that there were many cases where

  1279
  the trustees were not obliged to use the money for purposes of the voluntary schools, and these trustees should be brought under the same conditions as the class of trustees who were forced to divide.
  (5.13) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 221; Noes, 105. (Division List, No. 545.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N.S

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lockie, John

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Finch, George H.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowe, Francis William

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Fison, Frederick William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Balcarres, Lord

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Flower, Ernest

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S W.

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Garfit, William

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Milner, Rt Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Godson, Sir Angustus Frederick

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Gore, Hn G. R. C Ormsby-(Salop

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Bigwood, James

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Bond, Edward

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Murray, Rt Hn A .Graham (Bute

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Myers, William Henry

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)

  Gretton, John

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Percy, Earl

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon, Robert Wm

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Butcher, John George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Carew, James Laurence

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Helder, Augustus

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Randles, John S.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A (Worc.

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Chapman, Edward

  Horner, Frederick William.

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Charrington, Spencer

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Kemp, George

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Denny, Colonel

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Digby, John K.D. Wingfield

  Kimber, Henry

  Smith, Abel H. (Herford, East)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Smith, H. C. (N'th'mb. Tyneside

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Knowles, Lees

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawrence, F. (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lawson, John Grant

  Sanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stock, James Henry

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sh'ffi'ld

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Warder Colonel C. E.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Welby, Lt-Cl. A.C.E. (Taunton

  Wylie, Alexander

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Tully, Jasper

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Valentia, Viscount

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Griffith. Ellis J.

  Rigg, Richard

  Allen Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harwood, George

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Runciman, Walter

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Brigg, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shackleton, David James

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Charles Edward (Stafford

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Burns, John

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Burt, Thomas

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Lambert, George

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R. (Northants

  Caldwell, James

  Langley, Batty

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cameron, Robert

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leng, Sir John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Logan, John William

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wallace, Robert

  Dilke, R. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Wason, Eugene

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Weir, James Galloway

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Norton, Captain Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Fenwick, Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Price, Robert John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Priestley, Arthur

  Mr. Whitley and Mr.

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Rea, Russell

  Corrie Grant.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Reckitt, Harold James

  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the object of the Amendment he now proposed to move was to limit the portion of the income from the endowment which was to be paid to the managers, to what he might call the religious or sectarian purposes of the endowment. Such an Amendment, he maintained, was in consonance with the original intentions of tine Government. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the portion of the income which was applicable to teaching religious subjects alone would not be touched. As he understood, the cost of repairs was to be a burden on the managers for ever, in consideration of the
  1282
  benefits they were to receive under this Bill, but if there was found a trust deed telling the managers that a portion or all the income from the endowment was to go to sectarian purposes, it ought not to be taken away from them. Supposing a Roman Catholic donor gave a certain sum by way of an endowment to a school, with a trust providing that the money was to be given for religious instruction only, that was an endowment which could not be touched. But he asked the Committee to say that no further funds should flow into the same channel, and that the portion of an endowment which the founder intended

  1283
  to be devoted to giving ordinary elementary education should be placed in the hands of those who must now provide this education. The result of his Amendment, if carried, as he submitted it ought to be, would be that all the words after the word "applied" in sub-Clause 1, would be omitted. He apologised for the Amendment not being on the Paper, but that was not his fault. Only some twenty-five minutes was available on the previous day for considering this new Clause and drafting Amendments to it, and he had not been able to draft his in time to get it placed upon the Paper. He had, however, handed it in at two o'clock this afternoon, and he hoped its not appearing on the Paper would not be a difficulty in the way of its being accepted.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 4, to leave out the words from the word 'applied,' to the word 'Education,' in line 11, inclusive, and insert the words 'by the express provisions of the trust in whole or in part exclusively for the purpose of giving instruction in religious subjects in a public elementary school and for no other purpose; the income Or part thereof, as the ease may be, shall be paid to the managers for that purpose, and in all other cases, and subject thereto, the income or the residue thereof, as the case may be, shall be paid to the education authority."—Mr. Samuel Evans.
  Question proposed, "That the words 'in whole or in part for' stand part of the Clause."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he did not think the hon. Gentleman could be really serious in his proposal. Under the Bill it was one of the duties of the managers to provide the school-house, and so on. The words "maintenance of the school," when used in a trust deed, were used—not in a narrow, technical sense, but to mean the general up-keep and educational improvement of the school. Surely the fabric was a part of the liabilities thrown upon the managers; and if they were to maintain the school, understanding the phrase in its general sense, the words allowed the trustees the discretion of using the endowment for the building if the money was wanted. What was the meaning of the Amendment? It was that whatever the intention of the
  1284
  donor or the terms of the trust, no money was to be used for the fabric. Money specifically intended by the donor for the fabric, or generally described under the term maintenance, was to be given to the local authority. The Amendment, he thought, overrode the trust deed in a way which was contrary to the spirit and meaning of the Clause proposed by the Government, and, therefore, it could not be accepted.
  MR. M'KENNAsaid the Amendment was a preface to the first words of the Clause—
  "Nothing in this Act shall affect any endowment, or the discretion of any trustees in respect thereof."
  It did not limit them; what the Amendment proposed was simply this, that the onus of proof should be placed on the managers to show that the endowment was for religious instruction, instead of, as now, the onus of proof being on the education authority to show that the endowment was for general instruction. If the endowment was not for the giving of religious instruction or for the purposes of the building, then the original words of the Clause came in, but if it was a mixed endowment, somebody ought to decide how much was to go to the managers. All the Amendment of his hon. friend asked was that the board of managers should have to prove that what they claimed was just, and that the amount to which they could not prove themselves entitled in the case of a mixed endowment should be handed over to the local education authority. As matters stood at present, the local education authority had to prove their claim; the Amendment suggested that the onus of proof should be on the other side, and that the managers and not the education authority should be compelled to prove their claim.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid that not only was the Amendment limited by the first words of the Clause, but it was obvious that the greater part of the money which the Amendment suggested should be handed over to the education, authority would, in the ordinary course, be expended by the managers, under the supervision and control of the education authority. All

  1285
  that the Amendment desired was that that part of the endowment which was in express terms to be used for sectarian education should be left unreservedly in the hands of the managers for that purpose, and that the rest of the endowment, which was for the general purposes of education, should be under the supervision and control of the education authority. That, was consistent with the scheme of the Bill as laid again and again before the House and the country by the Government, and, in his opinion, the Amendment was a perfectly rational and reasonable Amendment.
  MR. BRYCEsaid the Secretary to the Board of Education in his answer had hardly appreciated the dominant idea of his hon. friend the Member for Mid-Glamorgan. His hon. friend in his Amendment was proceeding on a line which the Government had already suggested by the arrangement they had proposed.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the answer of the Secretary to the Board of Education that this Amendment was against the spirit of the Clause was not any answer to the House. The whole complaint of the Opposition was that the endowments Clause was contrary to the meaning and spirit of the Bill. The very basis of this Bill was that there were to be two parties to a new arrangement; but the Government throughout the Committee stage had been steadily bringing in mean and niggling Amendments, every one of which was to get rid of the terms of the arrangements with regard to the denominational schools. The question to be considered was what was the fair way of dealing with the new condition of things which was going to be applied to old trust deeds. It was said that this proposal would override the trust deeds. He submitted that this was a case in which these old trust deeds should be overridden, otherwise the managers might seize all this Money for denominational purposes, although it was intended for educational
  purposes. A man 200 years ago allocated money for the maintenance of a school. At the time there was no duty on the community to maintain a school. In many parishes no education at all was maintained, and men recognising the necessity and finding it unprovided for, left property, the income from which was to be spent on the maintenance of schools in those villages. But as the duty of providing education was now to be a national duty, did the Government contend that those trust deeds were to be maintained? Obviously, they could not be, as the Bill was to apply everywhere. The question then arose—how were those trust deeds, which must in the circumstances of the case be overridden, to be dealt with? In what way ought they to be set aside? The Government said: "Do not set them aside at all where they will benefit our existing denominational schools; let us seize every penny under these trust deeds for denominational purposes, although the trusts were created for educational purposes." On the other hand, his hon. and earned friend suggested that the trust deeds should be dealt with in the spirit of the Bill. Under the Bill the denominational managers were to control the denominational teaching in the schools, although they did not pay a penny of the cost, on the ground that they originally provided the building and were in future to carry out the repairs. But under the endowments Clause, wherever there was an income in the hands of trustees which could by any possibility be used for the maintenance and up-keep of the buildings, instead of the subscribers bearing time expense, the money of the trust deeds was to be used. That was contrary to the spirit of the Bill, and it was an evidence of the mean and niggling spirit of the supporters of the measure, which would make a deep impression on the people of the country by whom this question would have to be finally decided.
  5.48. Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 227; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 546.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Gardner, Ernest

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Garfit, William

  Myers, William Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Gibbs, Hn A.G. H. (City of Lond.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Percy, Earl

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Gore, Hn. G. R C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

  Greene, Sir EW (BurySEdm'nds

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gretton, John

  Purvis, Robert

  Bignold, Arthur

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Bigwood, James

  Halsey, Rt. Ron. Thomas F.

  Randles, John S.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bond, Edward

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Bonsfield, William Robert

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Ritchie, Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Brodrick, Rt Hon. St. John

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Bull, William James

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Helder, Augustus

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Butcher, John George

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Campbell ,Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Carew, James Lawrence

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Horner, Frederick William

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Howard, J. (Midis., Tottenham

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East

  Cecil Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Worc

  Hunson, George Bickersteth

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Chapman, Edward

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Spear, John Ward

  Charrington, Spencer

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Stanley, Edward, Jas. (Somerset

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Stock, James Henry

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Kemp, George

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUniv.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Kimber, Henry

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Denny, Colonel.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Valentia, Viscount

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H(Sheffield

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowe, Francis William

  Welby, Lt,-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

  Dyke, Rt. William Hart

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Wilson, John (Glagow)

  Finch, George H.

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E. (Wigt'n

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Fison, Frederick William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wylie, Alexander

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert, Penrose-

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Moon Edward Robert Pacy

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Flower, Ernest

  More, Robert, Jasper (Shropshire)

  Forster, Henry William

  Morrell, George Herbert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  1288

  1289

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rea, Russell

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harwood, George

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Asquith, RtHn. Herbert Henry

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon, Sir Arthur D.

  Rigg, Richard

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  Bell, Richard

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Schwan, Charles E.

  Brigg, John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shackleton, David James

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Jones, David Brymnor (Sw'nsea

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Bryce, Rt. How James

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Burns, John

  Kirson, Sir James

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Burt, Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Langley, Batty

  Speneer, Rt.HnC. R. (Northants

  Caldwell, James

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Cameron, Robert

  Leng, Sir John

  Taylor, Theodere C. (Radcliffe)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Able (Carmarthen, E.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Logan, John William

  Thomas, Sir (Glamorgan, E.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Creamer, William Randal

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Davis, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Wallace, Robert

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, Engene

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Weir, James Galloway

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Ewards, Frank

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Moss, Samuel

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Norman, Henry

  Yoxell, James Henry

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Fuller, J. H. F.

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Philipps, John Wynford

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Mr. Samuel Evans and

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Price, Robert John

  Mr. Corrie Grant.

  THE CHAIRMAN: The Amendment of the hon. Member for Carnarvon seems to raise the same question again.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the question was not quite the same, and he thought he could make it perfectly clear that his Amendment raised quite a different question. He moved to omit the word "those" before the words "purposes of a public elementary school." He said that the object of this and consequential Amendments was to withdraw from the discretion of the trustees endowments left for the maintenance of the school as an institution, and not merely for the, maintenance of the fabric. When they came to the purposes of education, these trusts divided themselves into two branches, one being to establish and found school buildings or the provision of a site, or money to build a school. He contended that the trustees would be entitled to say "This money is given for building and we are
  1290
  entitled to use it for repairing and extensions if we like." There were other cases where the money had been given for maintenance. In a case of that kind this Clause would not give discretion to the trustees. In one case he knew of a sum of money which was given for fit and deserving bachelors: another sum was for buying Welsh Bibles and for the preaching of a sermon on Whit Monday; and there was another stun set apart for the education of the children of the labouring classes. Where the money was given to educate the children of the parish, surely in a case of that kind it was clear that the money ought to be given to the local education authority. Take a case where the charity was established to maintain education in a parish, and a second case where it was intended to build schools. Now the Government stated that with regard to the first charity its object remained. They did not, however, take

  1291
  over the functions and the trustees had still to discharge them, but with regard to the second case the Government now proposed that the local education authority in the future was to step into the shoes of the trustees, do their work, take the responsibility, and the liability, financial and otherwise, was theirs, and if there was a fund for the purpose the local authority ought to be relieved to the amount of that sum. He wished to reverse the process established by the Government. The Government said that if it was given at all for educational purposes, whether for maintenance or for the fabric, in such a case absolute discretion should be given to the trustees unless the money was ear-marked for a specific branch. If the money was given for general purposes of maintenance, then he understood that the trustees used their discretion. That was not fair from the point of view of the Government. If money was given for maintenance and could be transferred to the up-keep of the fabric, that was a diversion of the charity from the original object of the trust. He was now simply advocating good sound Conservative principles. The Government seized this property and diverted it to another object. If this were done in regard to private property they would call it confiscation and robbery, but because it was the property of the poor and of the ratepayer they practically said that they could rob them to any extent. If the Government would say that an endowment left for "maintenance" would go to the local authority the Amendment fell to the ground. But they would not say so.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: It is for the Courts of law to say what would happen.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the Bill must be passed in such a form that the Courts of law could understand it. Besides, these questions would be decided by the Board of Education. But if the noble Lord and his friends said that the purpose of an endowment could be altered to relieve a landowner of his subscriptions, how could he object if another Government some day altered the purpose of endowment for the benefit of the whole community?
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 4, to leave out the word 'those,' and insert the word the.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'those' stand part of the Clause."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he was not going to follow or even to attempt to imitate the vituperation which the hon. Member had indulged in—
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Whom did I vituperate? I was very civil.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the hon. Member spoke of robbery, confiscation, and such terms as those.
  MR LLOYD-GEORGE: I was only quoting the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he would confine his observations to a somewhat narrower sphere. The Government wished to leave the discretion to the managers where there was a discretion already. Maintenance, in the sense in which it was used, would correspond to benefit—the purposes of the school, the general objects of the school. He admitted that if it could be shown in any trust deed that money was given for the maintenance of a school in the narrower sense in which the word maintenance was used in the Bill, it would go direct to the education authority, but there was no ground for the charge that the Government were perverting the word "maintenance" in trust deeds to mean something different from what it really did mean. There was no wish to depart from the provisions of the trust deed, but if any question arose as to the proper interpretation of the trust deed, the persons who were responsible would be responsible before the Courts of law. If it was desired to ransack the conditions of trust deeds and to provide means, uniform in character, of dealing with them, and which should be applicable to all trusts and endowments now held for the purposes of education, that was not a subject which the Government proposed to introduce in the Bill. This might be a question for another Bill on another occasion, but at present the Government were content to take the trusts as they found them.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSagreed with the Bishop of London that there was no desire to start the working of the Bill by raising points for wholesale litigation. But they were anxious to find out what was intended by the Government, and for that reason an attempt was being made to make provisions clear which were at present obscure. If an endowment was intended for the support of the school as distinguished from the school-house, did the Government mean to allow the managers to utilise that endowment under the provisions of this Clause for the maintenance of the fabric mud its repair? They were on sound ground when they asked this explanation. He thought when they raised these distinct questions they ought to receive explanations of what the Government meant. It was not satisfactory to be told that if difficulties arose it was for the Courts of law to clear them up.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid he quite agreed with his hon. and learned friend that it was most expedient that the determination of questions such as tins should not be left to the interpretation of the Courts of law. They had far too much experience of that procedure already, and the Committee ought to be warned by that experience not to repeat a mistake into which previous legislators had fallen. He took note of one statement of the Secretary to the Board of Education with satisfaction—that when a trust was so explanatory that it directed the money to be applied to the maintenance of the school, then it was clear that the local authority should be entitled to the benefit of the fund.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: Maintenance in the sense in which maintenance is used in this Bill.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid that the interruption was a good illustration of the use of ambiguous language in an Act of Parliament or elsewhere. Did that mean that where the pious founder who created the trust has stated his purpose, and the sole purpose, to which the trust was to be applied, there and there only it should go to the local authority? He thought without being very rash they might safely assert that there were very few trusts indeed in which the author of the
  1294
  trust had the prevision to anticipate that by some future legislative settlement only this purpose would be available. The principle laid down by the Amendment of his hon. friend was that where the trust was such that they might infer from the language that the proceeds were intended to be applied to the fund for the support and benefit of the school, the local authority should be regarded as the present beneficiaries of the trust nail should be entitled to the proceeds. Where, on the other hand, it could be clearly collected from the language of the trust that it was intended to be limited to a purpose over which the managers had jurisdiction, another state of things would arise. What he and his hon. friends wanted was that the presumption should be in cases where general language was used, and from which they could infer that the education of the children in the parish was the real purpose of the foundation that the local authority should be the persons entitled to the benefit of the fund.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the Secretary of the Education Department ignored the actual condition of things. The hon. Baronet quoted from a trust deed in which the phrase "maintenance of the school," was used. Whore that phrase was used before this Bill was introduced it had covered everything connected with the up-keep of the school. It had covered repairs, white-washing, painting the building, the provision of books for the children payment of the salaries of the teachers, the provision of coals, and lighting where there was artificial light, and so on. Wherever the words "maintenance of the school" were used in a trust deed when this Bill came to be applied to them the phrase would be ambiguous. What did the hon. Baronet suggest? Not that, recognising this ambiguity, they should deal with it and make it clear, but that they should refer the subject to the Courts of law. It was a curious thing that the persons who were protesting against reference to the Courts of law in this matter were those who would pare to deal with the cases if they went there. They knew how unsatisfactory it was to send to a law court for the interpretation of a document to which a special meaning was attached after that document came into existence, and that was what the Board of Education was suggesting now.

  1295
  On the other hand, what he and his hon. friends wanted was that those who had to administer education should be able to administer it under perfectly clear and sensible conditions, and should not have their work hampered by a series of appeals to the law courts. Until the introduction of this Bill, "maintenance" had never meant the drawing of a distinction between the up-keep of the building and the carrying on of the school. The Bill now made this distinction. If the matter was now left unsettled, there would be appeals to the Courts, perhaps contrary decisions, and after all they would then have to come to the House of Commons and ask that the matter should be put right.
  MR. SOARESsaid that the hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, treated of three classes of endowments, the first two of which might be used for the benefit of the denominational schools. In the third class where the money was to be devoted generally to maintaining the schools, the local authorities should have the control of it. Henceforth the local authority will have the duty laid upon it of maintaining these schools, and if they were to take that burden it was only fair that they should have the assets also. The denominational schools had gone into voluntary liquidation, and they were asked to take them over. There was no question of confiscation in regard to this matter. In every case the money belonging to the denomination was to go to the denomination, and it was only where the money had been given for education that it was to go to the local authority. The position of two classes of people had been altered by the Bill. He meant the rich and the poor. The subscribers would have the "intolerable strain" taken off them, but on the other hand the ratepayers would have a new burden imposed on them, and that would be very keenly felt in the rural districts. He supported the Amendment on the ground that it was infinitely better that small endowments should go to the relief of the pockets of the ratepayers rather than those of the wealthy subscribers to voluntary schools.
  SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he had been fairly puzzled with this Clause, it was so difficult to understand: so much so that he was unable to support one of the
  1296
  Amendments, for it seemed to him to mean exactly the opposite of what the hon. Member who moved it intended it to mean. The usual words that were used in the older endowments were "for the support of the school," or "for the schooling or the education of so many poor children." He really did not think that the words of this Clause in the least suited these cases, which were the usual form of trust deeds. One reason why he supported the Amendment of his hon. friend was that his words were clear. If the words "for the purposes of a school" were used, the Clause would he rendered much clearer and more distinct than it was when originally introduced, and he was sure that unless the Clause were amended in the sense of the Amendment it would cause a great deal of litigation.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that the hon. Baronet had drawn a distinction between "maintenance" as it was used in the Bill, and "maintenance" as it was used in trust deeds: and he had based on the distinction he had so drawn an argument why this money should not be given to the local education authority but should be retained in the hands of the managers. He had been making some detailed inquiry into the terms employed in trust deeds, and in many cases he found that they contained absolutely no reference to the school buildings, but related solely and simply to the education of children in the schools. If the hon. baronet would make inquiry, careful and detailed, he would find that very seldom indeed, even by implication, was there an assumption to the effect that "maintenance" related to these school buildings. In one parish, .and he took these illustrations at random, the endowment was for the "education of poor children." In the next parish the endowment was for the gratuitous education of one or more children. In another parish the money was to be applied in the payment of scholarships of £1 each to deserving boys not less than twelve years of age. In all these cases there was no reference whatever to school buildings. The reply of the hon. Baronet had not covered that point in the slightest degree, and he trusted after this Debate that the Government would see there was a case
  to be met.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid it was obvious that in the cases mentioned by the hon. Member, the money was to be expended by the local education authority on education, as was provided for by the Clause as it stood.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the hon. Baronet had not answered a much
  more important case than of a fund for the support of a school in existence.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the funds would go for repairs.
  (6.42.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 235; Noes, 120. (Division List No. 547.)

  AYES

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dorington Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Morton

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Doughty, George

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Arrol, Sir William

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Kemp, George

  Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Durning-Lawrenee, Sir Edwin

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Keswick, William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Kimber, Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Dougla)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Faber, George Denison (Yorks

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lawrence, Wm. E. (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lawson, John Grant

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Leeky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Finch, George H.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Bignold, Arthur

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Bigwood, James

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lockie, John

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bond, Edward

  Flower, Ernest

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Forster, Henry William

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S,

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

  Lowe, Francis William

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Garfit, William

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Bull, William James

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Burdett-Counts. W.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Butcher, John George

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Cavendish. R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Cavendish, V.C. W.(Derbyshire

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Milner, Rt Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Greene, Sir E W(Bury S Edm'nds

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Camberlain, RtHn. J.A(Worc.

  Gretton, John

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Chapman. Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hamilton, RtHn. G (Midd'x

  Murrell, George Herbert.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Coddington, Sir William

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Myers, William Henry

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Corbett. A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Percy, Earl

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Helder, Augustus

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Denny, Colonel

  Hope, J .F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Dickson Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Randles, John S.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Smith, Hon W. F. D.(Strand

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Spear, John Ward

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Stock, James Henry

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Wylie, Alexander

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Tully, Jasper

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Valentia, Viscount

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffi'ld

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyn'side

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Allen, Charles P.(Glonc., Stroud

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rigg, Richard

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Harwood, George

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Runciman Walter

  Bell, Richard

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Samuel, Herbert. L. (Cleveland

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Brigg, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shackleton, David James

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Burns, John

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Burt, Thomas

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Kitson, Sir James

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R (Northants

  Caldwell, James

  Lambert, George

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Langley, Batty

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Layland, Barratt, Francis

  Tennant, Harold John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Cremer, William Randall

  Logan, John William

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan

  M'Arthur William (Cornwall)

  Wallace, Robert

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Wason, Eugene

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Weir, James Galloway

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Moss, Samuel

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Edwards, Frank

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Price, Robert John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Priestley, Arthur

  Mr. Lloyd-George and

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Rea, Russell

  Mr. Samuel Evans.

  Grant, Corrie

  Reckitt, Harold James

  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the effect of the Amendment he proposed to move would be that the proviso would apply to all trusts and would not be limited. It would apply to all trusts as to which the
  1300
  provision had to be made, and not be limited to the purposes of the public elementary schools. He ventured to think this was an Amendment that the Government would accept. It had

  1301
  nothing to do with matters which they had debated earlier in the afternoon. It would, he ventured to suggest, help the co-ordination of education. The Government had always said that one of the objects of the Bill was to produce unity, and if they accepted that principle of coordination he could not see why they should attempt to limit this Clause to elementary education. He submitted in that case it should be extended to all classes of education.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 4, to leave out the words 'of a public elementary school.'"—(Mr. Corrie Grant.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the hon. Member proposed an entire recasting of the purposes of the Clause by bringing within its scope all manner of educational endowments, and he could hardly be
  serious in thinking that the Government would accept it. The object of the Government in introducing the Clause was to deal with elementary schools only which were not provided by the education authority, and they could not possibly extend its scope to secondary schools.
  MR. TREVELVANsupported the Amendment. He instanced a village with which he was acquainted which was possessed of a board school which had an average attendance of 226 children, by the side of which was a little school under an endowment which had twelve children. The only thing this little school did was to withdraw that number of children from the far better education which they would receive at the board school.
  (7.3.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 235; Noes, 114. (Division List No. 548.)

  AYES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Chapman, Edward

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Charrington, Spencer

  Fison, Frederick William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Clare, Octavius Leigh.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Coddington, Sir William

  Flower, Ernest

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Forster, Henry William

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Garfit, William

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Glerald W (Leeds

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Denny, Colonel

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Dewar, Sir T. R(Tower Hamlets

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Greene, Sir E W(B'ryS Edm'nds

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Gretton, John

  Bignold, Arthur

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Bigwood, James

  Dunsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Bond, Edward

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Doughty, George

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Bull, William James

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Helder, Augustus

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Butcher, John George

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Faber, George Denison (York

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Hope, J .F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Finch, George H.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Spear, John Ward

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Myers, William Henry

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Morton

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Stock, James Henry

  Kemp, George

  Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Percy, Earl

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Keswick, William

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Talbot, Rt Hn J.G (Oxf'rd Univ.

  Kimber, Henry

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm Edward M.

  Lawrence, Wm. E. (Liverpool)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lawson, John Grant

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Purvis, Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E.H (Sheffi'ld

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Randles, John S.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Lockie, John

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

  Welby, Lt-Col. A.C. E (Taunton

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wharton Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne

  Lowe, Francis William

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Milner, Rt Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Milvain, Thomas

  Sharpe, Edward T.

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shrepshire)

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Murrell, George Herbert.

  Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Marlow, John Emmott

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Barran, Howland Hirst

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Bell, Richard

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Gurden, Sir W. Brampton

  Newnes, Sir George

  Brigg, John

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Norman, Henry

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Harwood, George

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Barns, John

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Burt, Thomas

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Caldwell, James

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Price, Robert John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Priestley, Arthur

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Rea, Russell

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Jones, David Brymnor (Swansea

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rigg, Richard

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  One, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Langley, Batty

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Dunn, Sir William

  Long, Sir John

  Runciman, Walter

  Edwards, Frank

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lloyd-George, David

  Schwalm, Charles E.

  Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone

  Logan, John William

  Shackleton, David James

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Lough, Thomas

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  1304

  1305

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wallace, Robert

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R(Northants

  Wason, Eugene

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Strachey, Sir Edward.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Tennant, Harold John

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R)

  Mr. Corrie Grant and

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Mr. Allen.

  Thomas. F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEmoved an Amendment providing that the decision of the Board of Education should not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days public notice had been given to the local education authority and the minor local authority, had been held. He pointed out that the Charity Commissioners, when they examined into local charities, always had a public inquiry of which notice was given. In case of a dispute between the local managers of a school and the local education authority, how were the Board of Education to get at the facts? Were they to decide the matter on a written presentment of the case by the managers, or were they to send a representative to investigate the whole of the circumstances? Unless the latter course were adopted, a very novel principle would be introduced into dealings with property, trust funds, and endowments. In most cases a scheme was already in operation, but the practical result of this Cause would be that new schemes would have to he made. The Board of Education would have to decide whether a certain charity was for maintenance, or for the fabric, or for religious purposes. That was a judicial function. Then they would have to decide whether it was a fund partly for maintenance and partly for repairs, and, if so, how to divide it. Such questions required the most careful local investigation. An important point would be the manner in which the money had been used in the past, and it was a question of evidence. Did the Board intend to get that evidence by affidavits? That was the last way in the world to get at the truth. The only satisfactory way was to send a Commissioner down to investigate all the circumstances of the case. Hitherto the Board of Education had been purely an administrative body, but they were now taking upon themselves the functions of a judicial tribunal.
  1306
  That being so they ought surely to proceed on judicial principles. The Amendment proposed nothing that could contravene the principle of the Clause, whatever that principle might be, and therefore, as it was only fair that the Parish Council and the parish should have an opportunity of presenting their case, he hoped the Amendment would be accepted.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 11, after the word 'Education,' to insert the words 'but the decision of the Board of Education shall not he given until after a local inquiry, of which tell days' previous notice shall be given to the local education authority and to the minor local authority, shall have been first held by the Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid many cases might arise under the Clause in which it would be convenient and desirable to hold a local inquiry, but many other cases might arise in which the whole question would be the interpretation of a document which might be interpreted as well at Whitehall as in the locality itself. The local authority would not be wholly unrepresented in the matter from the very outset, because both the local education authority and the minor local authority had representatives on the board of managers, and would, therefore, be aware of what was passing not only from the managers' point of view but also from the point of view of the locality. It seemed to him harsh and unnecessary that the local authority should be saddled in every case of a dispute with the delay and the cost of a public inquiry when a careful study of documents might be all that was needed. He had no doubt the Board of Education would hold an inquiry whenever it was necessary.
  MR. BRYCEwas sorry the Government had not given a more favourable answer, because they had admitted that in many cases a local inquiry would be necessary. Frequently such an inquiry would be the only way by which both the local authority and the people on the spot would be made to feel that the case had been properly presented. Why not assent to allowing a local inquiry wherever the local education authority asked for it? They could rely that such inquiries would not be needlessly asked for, as the local authority would have to bear the expense. It was necessary that the Government should give some better guarantee than was contained in the Clause that the local opinion would be properly ascertained.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSthought the suggestion of his right hon. friend an eminently reasonable one, though possibly it did not go quite far enough. The Parish Council also ought to have the right to call for a public inquiry, and he suggested that the Government should provide for a public inquiry being held whenever the education authority or the minor local authority desired it. Be expressed his astonishment at hearing the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education declare that in most cases all that would be necessary was the construction or the interpretation of a written document. That was the duty of a Court of law, not of the Board of Education.
  It being half-past seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Mr. J. W. LOWTHERin the chair.
  Another Amendment proposed—
  "In line 11 after the word 'Education,' to insert the words 'but the decision of the Board
  1308
  of Education shall not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days' previous notice shall be given to the local education authority and to the minor local authority, shall have been first held by the Board of Education.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid this was the first time that the Education Department had been set up as a legal tribunal, and in his judgment the Board of Education would not, in all cases, be competent to interpret the documents so as to give satisfaction to all who were interested in the controversy. There was a time, not far distant, when there was an eminent legal personage at the head of the Board of Education. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had been one of the legal advisers of the Crown, and would be admitted to be a competent authority to discuss the legal interpretation of certain deeds. At the present moment they had at the Board the hon. Baronet, who, perhaps, was not so qualified as his predecessors, but who nevertheless would show very great competency to deal with these matters. But they had not always such able Gentlemen representing the Board of Education in the House of Commons. They might, indeed, have a layman who was as qualified to give a proper legal interpretation of a document. They ought to discuss this question of inquiry on general principles. Whenever they asked the Board of Education to determine between two bodies how an endowment should be divided they ought to give public notice, and have a public inquiry so that the particular locality affected should have an opportunity of defending its own interests. Already, in three places in that Bill provisions had been inserted for public notice being given in certain events and for public inquiry to be held. The first was in Clause 9, dealing with the provision of new schools. The next was in Clause 11, describing how duties under the Elementary Education Acts were to be enforced by the Education Department, and that provided in terms, that if the local education authority did not fulfil its duties the Board of Education might, after holding a public

  1309
  inquiry, issue such orders as it thought necessary. The only other Clause under which a public inquiry was to be held was Clause 12, and under that they laid the provision that the Board of Education before approving any scheme should take measures for the purpose of giving publicity to the provisions of the proposed scheme, and might, if it thought fit, hold a public inquiry. Under Clause 9 public notice was to be given in order to invest the ratepayers with the right of appeal to the Education Department, but here it was simply asked that notice should be given to the local authority. As to the inquiry to be allowed under Clauses 11 and 12, surely it that were necessary one was equally desirable under the provisions of the new Clause under discussion, a Clause which provided for the division of the income from an endowment, and the award of one portion to the managers and another to the local education authority. His experience was that the parish in which the endowment was situated and for which it had been bequeathed was intensely interested in the question of its administration. But under the proposal of the Government the parish was entirely ignored—the only parties taken cognisance of were the managers of the voluntary schools and the local education authority, Surely it was not unreasonable to ask that the people chiefly and mainly interested should have an opportunity of laying their views before the Board of Education, and surely if a public inquiry were necessary before a scheme was approved, it was equally necessary before the division was made. The scheme might be altered or revoked by the express terms of the Bill, but once the endowment was divided the decision was final. Under the circumstances he submitted that the Amendment of his hon. friend was perfectly sound from the point of view of the necessity of holding a public inquiry, and public notice ought to be given in order that the views of those who were interested should be properly placed before the Board of Education. He hoped that the Government would accept the Amendment and that it would be extended so as to provide for public notice as well as public inquiry, so as to afford an opportunity either to the Parish
  1310
  Council or the Rural District Council to lay their views—without unnecessary ex! pense—before the Board of Education prior to its making a division of the endowment.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENsaid the Amendment was not one involving a sectarian question, but it dealt with the question of the best way of dividing the endowment. Looking at it from a practical point of view, he regarded the Amendment not only as unnecessary, but as absolutely mischievous. There was a vast number of these endowments, although the aggregate incomes did not exceed £160,000 annually, and in a great many eases there would have to be a revision. He was very glad that it was the Board of Education, and not the Charity Commissioners, that was to undertake this work. The labour would be immense and a great deal of local friction would be raised, and if in addition a local inquiry were compulsory in every case there would be unending work, an enormous staff would be required, and many years would elapse before the inquiries were settled. It was perfectly unnecessary, because, by the general law affecting charitable trusts, the Charity Commissioners were empowered to order an inquiry whenever they liked into the administration of a trust. These powers had been transferred by an Order in Council from the Charity Commissioners to the Board of Education, and consequently in every single case they could order an inquiry if they thought there was any reason for so doing. Was not that quite sufficient to meet the case put by the hon. Member opposite? The inquiries in most eases were perfectly unnecessary, because all that could be necessary would be to construe documents. In the majority of the eases all the necessary information was ready to hand, and it was only necessary to apply common sense to the task. It would be perfectly ridiculous to go to the expense of sending a special commission to hold an inquiry on the spot. Under the Local Government Act of 1894, the Charity Commissioners were made the arbiters of most difficult questions—such as what was or was not an ecclesiastical charity. That raised the religious difficulty in hundreds of parishes, but the Charity Commissioners dealt with all the eases as they came

  1311
  before them. They generally came to a decision on documents which were in their office, but where the trusts were doubtful they ordered an inquiry. If those powers sufficed in that case, surely they would be equally sufficient for the Board of Education in this instance. He wished to see this Clause worked in a practical spirit, and he therefore opposed the Amendment because he believed it would clog the wheels of the Department, which had to administer a most difficult piece of machinery.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he wished to explain that it was not the inquiry, but its proposed compulsory character, that he objected to. If the inquiry were made dependent on the demand of the local education authority he should be prepared to accept that and to move an Amendment to carry it out.
  Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he should be quite prepared to accept an Amendment in the form that an inquiry should be granted if requested or demanded by the local education authority.
  MR. BRYCEwas very glad the hon. Baronet had accepted the Amendment. He thought the Secretary to the Board of Education would find that this proposal would give satisfaction to all concerned.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLasked at whose cost the inquiry was to be held.
  Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE: The local education authority.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid that, if the Government put in the words suggested, they should also allow an inquiry on the demand of trustees. He might mention the case of the Harpar Trust at Bedford. Under a scheme made in 1873, certain sums were set aside for the purposes of a public elementary school and certain schools were carried on by the Governors of the Trust, who, of course, received education grants in the usual way. The question was, what would happen to their endowments f Their schools would come under the provisions of the Bill, and if any question should arise as to a division of the two-elevenths of the Trust income, surely the trustees should have a right to demand an inquiry.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANS: If a public inquiry is held, the trustees will necessarily be parties to the inquiry.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he should have no objection to include trustees, though he would point out that it would not be fair that trustees should be allowed to call for inquiries of this sort when the expense fell on the local authority. That body was not likely to incur heavy expense by demanding wholesale unnecessary inquiries.
  MR. BOUSFIELD: I shall be content if my hon. friend will promise to consider this point.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the trustees would certainly have full notice of any inquiry which was to take place under the Clause, and they would also have complete access to the Board of Education. In these circumstances, he thought the interests of trustees would be adequately protected. He thought that the costs of the inquiry should be borne by the authority demanding it, and that should be the only condition on which a public inquiry would be held.
  MR. JOHNSTONEcomplained that as the Amendment did not appear on the Paper it was very difficult to understand what they were discussing. He gathered that the Government was willing to agree that the local authority should have power to demand a public inquiry, and he thought the proposal of the Secretary to the Board of Education a very unsatisfactory solution of a difficult problem. It had been pointed out in the lucid and closely-reasoned speech of the hon. Member for Glamorgan that there was first the objection that the Secretary to the Board of Education might not be well fitted, either by education or practice, for construing legal documents. But it seemed to be forgotten that he would always have at his service the highest legal acumen of the country, and would be able to consult not only the legal advisers of the Department but also the Law Officers of the Crown. Again, it should be remembered that a considerable number of deeds would be in the same form, and one decision would govern many

  1313
  cases. If they left it to the discretion of the local education authority they would be continually liable to have pressure brought to hear upon them from without. Although there might really be no doubt of the result the local authority might consider it a duty to ask for an inquiry. It was absolutely unnecessary to put this temptation in the way of a local authority. It would be a temptation difficult to resist, and very often these matters would be brought forward by representatives keenly interested at the time, but wholly unable to distinguish between the construction of a legal document and the sympathy men in public life had for the wishes of those by whose votes they are supported. These matters could be dealt with readily enough by a gentleman of legal training, and if they were left to the discretion of the Board of Education there would be reasonable prospect of finality. If they were left to the discretion of a number of newly-constituted authorities, new brooms anxious to sweep clean and justify their existence, he saw no end to the prospect of inquiries of this kind throughout the country. On the mere ground of burdening the country with inquiries he hoped the Government would pause before they accepted any such suggestion as that which had been made. Where the public interest demanded an inquiry he had not the slightest doubt that one would be ordered without hesitation, and upon that ground he hoped the Government would think twice before they rashly committed themselves to an Amendment which was not on the Paper, and which might introduce far greater confusion and difficulty than was contemplated at the present moment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he understood that the words he proposed had been accepted by the Government. The only other suggestion was that he thought notice should also be given to the trustees of any inquiry, and he would suggest that words to this end should be inserted.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsuggested the following form of words:—
  "But if a local inquiry be demanded by the local education authority the decision of the
  1314
  Board of Education shall not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days' previous notice shall be given to the trustees, the local education authority and the minor authority, shall have been held by the Board of Education."
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he wished to ask a question in regard to the cost of these inquiries. He had heard no reference to costs in this discussion. He thought it ought to be made perfectly clear that the local authority demanding the inquiry should pay the costs. He hoped his hon. friend, if he pressed this Amendment, would insert words providing for the payment of the costs by the local authority, because some of the charities which would be affected were very limited in their means.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 11, after the ward 'education,' to insert the words 'but if a local inquiry is demanded by the local education authority the decision of the Board of Education shall not be given until after a local inquiry, of which ten days, previous notice shall be given to the local education authority and to the minor local author to the trustees, shall have been first held by the Board of Education.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEpointed out that by this Amendment they would be in the same position in regard to these inquiries as any other Departmental inquiry by the Board of Trade or the Local Government Board. If they stuck in the word "costs" it had an ominous sound for the lawyers, but if they left it as it was left in the case of any other Departmental inquiries it simply meant that an inspector would be sent down and the costs would only amount to his travelling expenses.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid he should like some one who had had Departmental experience to state his views upon this question. He urged that a proviso should be inserted in the Bill imposing the cost of the inquiry on the local authorities demanding it, or they might leave the matter in the hands of the Board of Education. He did not desire to press the matter now, but he should like the Government to give the question further consideration.
  SIR JOHN GUESTthought that they ought to have this point properly sealed before the words suggested were inserted in the Bill. The whole argument of hon. Gentlemen opposite had been that there would be a check upon the demand for inquiries made by the local authority because they would have to pay the costs. When the Government conceded that point it was suddenly discovered that there was no provision made for making the local authority pay the costs. He moved to add the words "at the cost of the local authority."
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "After the last word 'education,' to insert the words 'at the cost of the local education authority.'"—(Sir John Gorst.)
  Question proposed. "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. WHITLEYsaid it would be best to put the Amendment, on which they were all agreed.
  SIR JOHN GUEST: Oh, no! we are not at all agreed.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought there ought to be some power in regard to costs vested in the Board of Education similar to that vested in Government Departments in regard to inquiries. He preferred the word "expenses" to "costs."
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the words he proposed were "at the cost of the local education authority." He did not mind the word "expenses."
  MR. BRYCEpointed out that in another part of the Bill where inquiries were provided for no reference was made to costs all. Speaking from recollection, he did not think that in the various Statutes which directed or empowered inquiries anything was said about the cost and the question was generally left to the discretion of the Department concerned.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the reason he moved his Amendment was that it was urged by hon. Gentlemen opposite that there was no danger in giving this power of forcing an inquiry provided that it was restrained by the knowledge that if a local authority did force an inquiry they would have to pay the costs. Now when he proposed an Amendment carrying out what every hon. Member opposite had urged they objected to the insertion of these words. No doubt the words of the Amendment which had been accepted would be revised by the Attorney General, and they could be altered on Report.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEquoted from, the Local Government Act, showing that the question of costs in regard to these inquiries was a purely discretionary order. He did not think it was fair that the cost should be imposed upon the local education authority in all cases, because an inquiry would be an expensive matter for them in any event. He thought they ought to consent to a discretionary order to impose costs against any of the parties in the usual form. The words proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Cambridge University were not discretionary but mandatory, and under his Amendment the Board of Education would be compelled to impose the costs upon the local education authority. He thought the Board of Education should have the same power in this matter as any other Government Department.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that as the First Lord of the Treasury had just returned to the Treasury Bench he would briefly repeat the grounds for proposing his Amendment. The Government proposed that the Board of Education might order a public inquiry into the question of the separation of the trust in order that they might be able to devote a part to maintenance and to future repairs. A proposal was made by hon. Members opposite that in case the local education authority so wished, it ought to be permitted to demand an inquiry, and the argument used by hon. Members opposite was that as the local authority would be willing to pay the costs there would be a perfect safeguard that no unnecessary inquiries would be demanded. When that was agreed to by his hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education, who suggested an Amendment to carry out that view, he proposed to add a few words to ensure that where the local education authority forced the Board of Education to institute an inquiry it should pay the costs, and such inquiries should be held at the expense of the local education authority demanding the inquiry. Then an objection to this was raised by hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that what they were most concerned about was that under no circumstances should the authority bear the cost. He thought they might very well leave the question to the discretion of the Board of Education, because the Amendment suggested by his right hon. friend would create a good deal of unnecessary machinery.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he was surprised at the zeal displayed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University for putting the costs on the local education authority.
  SIR JOHN GORSTreplied that, as the hon. Member opposite had not been present during the whole of this discussion, he was afraid he did not know what had happened. The whole argument of hon. Gentlemen opposite had
  1318
  been that there was no danger in allowing the local education authority to force an unnecessary inquiry because it would be restrained by reason of having to pay the costs.
  DR. MACNAMARAreminded the right hon. Gentleman that he had been present during the whole of the discussion. If no reference was made in Clause l2 to expenses, why should they introduce that matter here? He agreed with the suggestion of the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Education, but if they introduced the words proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, or any other phrase of that kind, they would mulct the local authority in a very large sum of money.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsuggested to the Government that the proper way of dealing with the matter was to leave the Clause without any reference to the costs at all, and, if on consideration before the Report stage, they thought that any provision should be made in regard to costs, they should make it a. general provision, such as was proposed by his hon. friend. It should be a provision similar to that contained in the Public Health Act. What was proposed here was to insert a reference to costs in respect of one sort of public inquiry, whereas there were two other sorts of Public inquiries provided for in the Bill and in respect of which there was no reference to costs at all. There ought to be a general provision about costs, which would apply to all forms of public inquiry which might be held under the powers conferred by the Bill.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,)said he was in the House when the right hon. Gentleman the member for South Aberdeen made the suggestion that if the local education authority asked for an inquiry they should have it, and that they should bear the costs. He believed that in nine cases out of ten where question arose no local would be necessary at all. If the local education authority desired an inquiry, they ought

  1319
  to say that they were ready to bear the costs, and that would afford a sort of test whether there was any substantial reason to suppose that the people of the locality were of opinion that an inquiry should be held.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid he could not think of any easier way of choking off a real grievance than by telling the local education authority that they might be liable for some indefinite amount for costs. He knew a case where a parish was anxious to have an inquiry into the administration of a certain charity, and, on being asked to hold an inquiry, the Board of Education assented on condition that security was given for the costs. When the Board was asked what the costs were likely to be, no satisfactory answer could be obtained. For that reason he thought it would be most impolitic to impose on the locality the burden of paying the costs in all cases. He should be quite willing to accede to the proposal that the awarding of costs should be in the discretion of the Department.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that he did not withdraw from anything he had formerly
  said on this matter. He wished to call attention to the fact that if the Committee passed any such provision here, doubt would be cast on the question of costs under Clause 11, which gave power to the Board of Education to hold an inquiry where the local education authority failed to perform their duty. He should have thought that the simplest course for settling this matter would have been to accept the suggestion of the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Education.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the suggestion made from this side of the House was a perfectly practical one, and it was in accordance with the precedents in regard to inquiries ordered by the Local Government Board and the Board of Trade. These Departments had discretion to impose costs in connection with local inquiries, and what was wanted was that similar discretion should be given to the Board of Education.
  (10.3) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 188; Noes, 90. (Division List No. 549.)

  AYES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Butcher, John George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Chapman, Edward

  Farbell, Sir T. George

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Charrington, Spencer

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Balcarres, Lord

  Clare, Octavins Leigh.

  Finch, George H.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Fison, Frederick William

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Bignold, Arthur

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Bigwood, James

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Forster, Henry William

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cranbarne, Viscount

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Bond, Edward

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gardner, Ernest

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Garfit, William

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Denny, Colonel

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower-Hamlets

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Dighby, John K. D. Wingfield

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS. Edm'nds

  Bull, William James

  Doughty, George

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Gretton, John

  Milvain, Thomas

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight

  Groves, James Grimble

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham Bute

  Spear, John Ward

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Helder, Augustus

  Myers, William Henry

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Stock, James Henry

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Percy, Earl

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N.R.)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Tully, Jasper

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Jefferys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Purvis, Robert

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Lawson, John Grant

  Randles, John S.

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Rankin, Sir, James

  William, Colonel Rt. (Dorset)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Ridley, Hn. M. W (Stalybridge

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Loden, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wylic, Alexander

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Hayne, Rt Hon. Charles Seale-

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Allen, Charles P (Gone, Stroud

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Runciman, Walter

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shackleton, David James

  Bell, Richard

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Langley, Batty

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Brigg, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brown, George, M. (Edinburgh

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Nothants

  Burns, John

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Burt, Thomas

  Legg, Sir John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Caldwell, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Cawley, Frederick

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Weir, James Galloway

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Moss, Samuel

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Edwards, Frank

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Partington, Oswald

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Grant, Corrie

  Price, Robert John

  Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury)

  Rea, Russell

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E.(Berwick)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Mr. Lloyd-George and

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Mr. Samuel Evans.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rigg, Richard

  Word, as amended, inserted.
  MR. KENNAsaid that in drafting the Amendment he now moved, he had followed the precedent set by the Government in Clause 10 of the Bill, where it was laid down that the Board of Education should have regard to certain main principles. He proposed now that the Board of Education, in deciding any difference, should be guided by the financial interests of the two bodies in a particular school. He could not conceive a more equitable principle than that to guide the Board of Education in cases where no guidance was given them by the trust as to the disposition of the endowment. Surely it would be more reasonable that the Board of Education should determine the amount or cost which the local authority had to bear relating to the school, and, on the other hand, the amount that fell on the managers for keeping the buildings in repair. In that way substantial justice would be done as between the two parties. It must be remembered that whatever was given to the education authority was really not diverted from the purposes of the trust, for it would come back again; but whatever was given to the managers would really be lost for the general purposes of the endowment, and would only go in the relief of subscribers to the voluntary schools. He submitted that, as the Board of Education must have some guiding principle in determining the proportion that was to go to each of the parties to the dispute, the only right line on which that proportion should be determined was the proportion of cost the two parties would have to bear in the maintenance of the school.
  Amendment proposed—
  "After the words last inserted, to insert the words, 'in determining any difference under this section, the Board of Education shall have regard to the proportion in which the whole cost of the school is met out of funds provided by the local education authority and the foundation managers respectively.'"—(Mr. M'Kenna.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he thought that the line which the hon. Member wished to give to the inquiry to be conducted by the Board of Education was hardly relevant to the subject of the Clause and of the inquiry which was to be directed by the Board of Education. Inquiry as to what was the origin of the trust and the original intention of the donor would be necessary, though sometimes difficult, but an inquiry into the respective needs of the claimants was irrelevant. What the hon. Member proposed to put before the Board of Education would be very much as if a judge were instructed to inquire which of two litigants wanted the money most. The inquiry should be which of the parties was entitled to the money, and not which of the two was the hungrier for the endowment. The Government could not accept the Amendment.
  Mr. SAMUEL EVANSsaid if the sole inquiry was as to which of the two parties was the hungrier, he thought that there could be no doubt at all that the Church would be found to be the hungrier. Wherever booty was to be obtained, the Church party was after it: they were the disciples of the loaves and the fishes, and of the person who kept the purse. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh."] These observations, however, were not very relevant to the Amendment, but they had been called forth by the remarks of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The question before the Committee was whether or not there should be any guiding principle at all to the Board of Education. The hon. Baronet said that that was very like going before a judge and asking him to decide which of the party would like to have the booty; but wherever a question in regard to money arose before a judge, what he had to direct his mind to was, who, according to the law, was entitled to the money? But there was no material in the trust deed to guide the Board of Education, and the very reason why the Amendment was necessary was, that in the absence of any provision in the trust deed, there ought to be some basis by which the Board, in their judgment, determined that one of the Party should

  1325
  get a tenth and the other nine-tenths, and on what ground. He did not know whether his hon. friend's method was the best one, but it seemed equitable.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid that the hon. Gentleman had declared that he was in favour of some principle—he did not care what it was.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he accepted the principle in the Amendment if the hon. Gentleman could not propose a better.
  MR. BOUSEIELDsaid they might as well suppose that the Board of Education would decide a dispute by a toss-up. It should be remembered that the circumstances of endowments and localities were infinitely various. He knew of various cases in which such an Amendment would operate with great injustice.
  Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid that after all some principle would be better than no principle at all. It had been said that the Board of Education should have
  a free hand, but there was an exact precedent for this Amendment in an Amendment introduced by the Prime Minister in regard to the election of managers. The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment set forth: "In making an Order under this Section with regard to any school, the Board of Education should have regard to the principles on which the education given in the school has been conducted in the past." The Board of Education was to have regard to particular circumstances, and that was all that was asked in his hon. friend's Amendment. He submitted that the Board of Education was not to be allowed a free hand. He must say that under the last Vice-President of the Committee of Council he had no confidence in it at all. It might not be much to give the Board of Education a guiding principle, or guiding hand, but, at any rate, it would embarrass them to depart from it.
  (10.33.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 93; Noes, 203. (Division List No. 550.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Mr. M'Kenna and Mr.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Ellis Griffith.

  Whiteley, Geo. (York, W.R.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  NOES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Finch, George H.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fison, Frederick William

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Flower, Ernest

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Forster, Henry William

  Murray, Rt Hn. A .Graham (Bute

  Balcarres, Lord

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Gardner, Ernest

  Myers, William Henry

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Garfit, William

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Gibbs, Hon. H. A. G. (City of Lond

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bignold, Arthur

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bigwood, James

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Bond, Edward

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Percy, Earl

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS, Edm'nds

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Gretton, John

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Groves, James Grimble

  Purvis, Robert

  Bull, William James

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Butcher, John George

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Randles, John S.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Clavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Ridley, Hn.M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Chapman, Edward

  Helder, Augustus

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E.

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Denny, Colonel

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh)

  Spear, John Ward

  Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower Hamlets

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph, Cockfield

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stock, James Henry

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Talbot, Rt Hn JG (Oxf'd Univ.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Doughty, George

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Donglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowe, Francis William

  Tully, Jasper

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Valentia, Viscount

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Warde, Colonel C, E.

  1328

  1329

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Whiteley, H (Asht'n-und-Lyne

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid he would not move the Amendment standing in his name, in order to afford an opportunity for the discussion of the important Amendment in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for East Somerset.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid that his Amendment dealt with a practical point in the Clause. Its object was to provide a proper way of dealing with those endowments which were too large to be devoted to the rates in the rough-and-ready manner proposed by the Clause. Those acquainted with the different endowments would agree that there were deeds of a varied and complex character which could not well be dealt with in such a very summary fashion as was proposed in sub-Section 2. In some cases those endowments were of a very considerable size. Among the list of such endowments which he had there was one in Hampshire of the value of £183 a year. He had examined the accounts of the school and he found that the amount spent on repairs last year was £28, more than £100 on salaries, and £33 on furnishing. The latter items would in future fall on the local authority. It was obvious that there must be a large proportion of the endowment which could not be dealt with by the managers. In that school there were only 42 children, though there was accommodation for 70. Supposing a repair fund of £20 or £30 a year was set aside, there would be a sum of £150 a
  1330
  year to be dealt with under sub-Section 2. In this parish a threepenny rate produced only£20 a year, and therefore £150 would be equivalent to something approaching a two shilling rate. The effect of sub-Section 2 would be to devote to the rates a larger amount than the new burden of the rates was likely to amount to, and they would be giving a considerable benefit to the ratepayers after discharging all the new liabilities which fell upon them under the Bill. Some people imagined that a charity for the relief of the poor ought to go to the ratepayers, but that he believed to be a fallacy. The poor of a parish might be ratepayers, but as a rule they were not; and in most cases the poor were much more numerous than the ratepayers. A provision like this, which said that educational endowments should be devoted to the aid of the rates, was neither consistent with equity nor with the principles on which charities had been administered for many years in this country. The County Council would have no statutory power to apply to the Board of Education for a new scheme unless words like his were inserted. The object of the words was to enable the County Council in places such as he had indicated to apply to the Board of Education to confirm a scheme under which the money might go not entirely in aid of rates, but the surplus might be devoted to those various educational purposes which might benefit the inhabitants of the parish. None of them wished to take the money away from the parish, but they all wished to see that the money

  1331
  was not wasted, and not devoted to a class which the founder did not intend to benefit. It could not be right to give a bonus to the ratepayers out of money intended for educational endowments. To the objection that the trustees might themselves apply, he replied that the trustees might have no interest to apply. Their interest might be adverse, they might be the largest ratepayers in the parish, and trustees were but human. The local authority, on the other hand, would have the interest and the duty to apply, and they were the body that ought to have the right of going to an impartial authority like the Board of Education and asking for a scheme. The Board of Education would have to consult the Parish Council under the Local Government Act; and, therefore, the voice of the parish would be heard; the voice of the local education authority would be heard; and the matter would be decided by the Board of Education.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 14, at end, to insert the words 'to the parish or parishes served by the school, and shall, unless otherwise applied in pursuance of a scheme made by the Board of Education on the application of the County Council, be applied.'"—(Mr. Henry Hobhouse.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that the object of the right hon. Gentleman was one with which the Government and the House would entirely sympathise, but he did not think this Amendment carried the object into effect. The effect of the Amendment would be to seize on a
  1332
  portion of the endowment on its way from the trustees to the local education authority and the overseers; and to turn it to some purpose such as his right hon. friend had described. He agreed that provision should be made whereby persons interested, namely the parishioners, in the matter should be consulted, but anyhow the objection which the Government felt to the Amendment was that it dealt with only a portion of the endowments and not with the endowments as a whole. It was possible where an endowment was over £100 for the Board of Education to take the initiative, and deal with it by a scheme; and in the case of an endowment under £100, the governors or trustees could take the matter up; but to take only a portion of the endowment, and deal with it by means of a scheme which seemed to him to be a piecemeal method of dealing with a large subject, was not only not satisfactory but would tend to frustrate any subsequent scheme that might be put forward for dealing with endowments as a whole. For those reasons the Government could not accept the Amendment.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he profoundly regretted the pronouncement just made on behalf of the Government. Last night they had pointed out—and it was not seriously contested by hon. Members opposite—that the proposal to apply these educational charities to relieve the subscribers or the ratepayers was to do violence to the intention of the founders, and to sanction a breach of trust on the part of the House of Commons. Tonight he was more than ever grieved that the hon. Gentleman representing the Government proposed to prevent this money, which might do such

  1333
  inestimable good to the poorest classes in the rural districts, being applied to help elementary children to receive the tincture of secondary education, and to take the money and apply it to the relief of well-to-do people. Nothing could be more regrettable in the whole course of the Bill. It marked the abandonment of an admirable opportunity of permanently helping the people. In order to put on record the serious view which the Opposition took of this matter, he would move an Amendment on behalf of his hon. friend, the Member for Poplar to strengthen the Amendment by inserting words to make it general in its application. He had no time to do more.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "To leave out the words 'unless otherwise' and insert the word 'be'"—(Mr. Bryce.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he thought the Committee was entitled, if only out of mere courtesy, to an expression of opinion from the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill regarding the Amendment of his right hon. friend. There was plenty of time to enable the hon. Gentleman to say whether he accepted it or not. As the hon. Gentleman would not reply, he would support the Amendment of his right hon. friend; and give a few reasons for doing so.
  It being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, proceeded forthwith to put the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair and on the New Clauses proposed by the Government.
  (11.1) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 203; Noes, 97. (Division List No. 551.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Allen, (Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Grant, Corrie

  Price, Robert John

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rea, Russell

  Bell, Richard

  Harmsworth, L. Leicester

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Rickett J. Compton

  Brigg, John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rigg, Richard

  Brown, George M (Edinburgh)

  Hemphill Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Burns, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Burt, Thomas

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Caldwell, James

  Langley, Batty

  Runciman, Walter

  Cameron, Robert

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Samuel, Hebert L. (Cleveland

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shackleton, David James

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leng, Sir John

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shipman Dr. John G.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lough, Thomas

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Tennant, Harold John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomas, David Alfrod (Merthyr

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Norton, Capt. Cecil Williams

  Thomas, F. Freeman-Hastings

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Partington, Oswald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Mr. M'Kenna and Mr.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Ellis Griffith.

  Whiteley, Geo. (York, W.R.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  NOES.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Finch, George H.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fison, Frederick William

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Flower, Ernest

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Forster, Henry William

  Murray, Rt Hn. A .Graham (Bute

  Balcarres, Lord

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Gardner, Ernest

  Myers, William Henry

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Garfit, William

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Gibbs, Hon. H. A. G. (City of Lond

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bignold, Arthur

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bigwood, James

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Bond, Edward

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Percy, Earl

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS, Edm'nds

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Gretton, John

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Groves, James Grimble

  Purvis, Robert

  Bull, William James

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Butcher, John George

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Randles, John S.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Clavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Ridley, Hn.M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A (Worc.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Chapman, Edward

  Helder, Augustus

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E.

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Denny, Colonel

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T (Denbigh)

  Spear, John Ward

  Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower Hamlets

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph, Cockfield

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stock, James Henry

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Talbot, Rt Hn JG (Oxf'd Univ.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Doughty, George

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Donglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowe, Francis William

  Tully, Jasper

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Valentia, Viscount

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Warde, Colonel C, E.

  1328

  1329

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Whiteley, H (Asht'n-und-Lyne

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Bigwood, James

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Arrol, Sir William

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Atkinson, Et. Hon. John

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bull, William James

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Butcher, John George

  Denny, Colonel

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J. A (Worc.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W, (Leeds

  Chapman, Edward

  Doughty, George

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Finch, George H.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lockie, John

  Sealy, Maj J.E.B (Isle of Wight

  Fison, Frederick William

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fitzerald, Sir Robert Penros-

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Smith, H C (Northm'b, Tyneside

  Flower, Ernest

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Spear, John Ward

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Garfit, William

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stock, James Henry

  Gore, HnG R. C. Ormsby-(Salod

  M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Grenfell, William Henry

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Gretton, John

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunt'n

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Myers, William Henry

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Parke, Ebenezer

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Helder, Augustus

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Percy, Earl

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wylie, Alexander

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm, Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Purvis, Robert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Randles, John S.

  Mr. Henry Hobhouse and

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Mr. Bond.

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Ridley, Hon. M.W. (Stalybridge

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Allan, Sir -William (Gateshead

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Cawley, Frederick

  Grant, Corrie

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cremer, William Randal

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Bell, Richard

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Brigg, John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Edwards, Frank

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Burt, Thomas

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Caldwell, James

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lambert, George

  Cameron, Robert

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Langley, Batty

  1336

  1337

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Priestley, Arthur

  Tennant, Harold John

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Rea, Russell

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Leng, Sir John

  Reekitt, Harold James

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Lough, Thomas

  Rigg, Richard

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Robson, William Snowdon

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Runciman, Walter

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Moss, Samuel

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Norman, Henry

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Partington, Oswald

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Price, Robert John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  (11.13) Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 109; Noes, 194. (Division List No. 552.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Partington, Oswald

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Grant, Corrie

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Gray, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Price, Robert John

  Bell, Richard

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rea, Russell

  Brigg, John

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rickett J. Compton

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Rigg, Richard

  Burt, Thomas

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Butcher, John George

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Cardwell, James

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Runciman, Walter

  Cameron, Robert

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Shackleton, David James

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lambert, George

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Langley, Batty

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Long, Sir John

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R(Northants

  Davies, M. Vaugham-(Cardigan

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Denny, Colonel

  Lough, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Doughty, George

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R

  Edwards, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moss, Samuel

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, Luke (York, E. R

  Foster, sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Norman, Henry

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Mr. Henry Hobhouse and

  Mr. Bond.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H. (City of Lond

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Allhusen Angustus Henry Eden

  Gore, Hn G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Percy, Earl

  Arrol, Sir William

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Gretton, John

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Groves, James Grimble

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Purvis, Robert

  Balcarres, Lord

  Halsey Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Randles, John S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Rankin, Sir James

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Ritchie, Rt Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Beresford, Lord Charles William

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Robertson. Herbert (Hackney)

  Bigwood, James

  Heath, Arthur Howar (Hanley

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Helder, Augustus

  Roper, Colonel Robert

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Scott, Sir S. (Maryelbone, W.)

  Bull, William James

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Smith, HC(North'mb. Tyneside

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A(Worc

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

  Spear, John Ward

  Chapman, Edward

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Carrington, Spencer

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Law Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stock, James Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lockie, John

  Tully, Jasper

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Rigby, John K. D. Wingfield

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lowe, Francis William

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir Willam H

  Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. E (Taunton

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Finch, George H.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Fisher, William-Hayes

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fison, Frederick William

  More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshire

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  FitzGerold, Sir Robert Penrose

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Flower, Ernest

  Murray Rt. Hn. A. Graham(Bute

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Forster, Henry William

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Myers, William Henry

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Garfit, William

  Nicholson, William Graham

  (11.23) Question put "That the Clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 212; Noes, 95. (Division list. No. 553.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Allhusen Angustus Henry Eden

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lockie, John

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Finch, George H.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lowe, Francis William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Fisher, William-Hayes

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  FitzGerold, Sir Robert Penrose

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Flower, Ernest

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Garfit, William

  Milvain, Thomas

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H. (City of Lond.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants.)

  Beresford, Lord Charles William

  Gore, Hn G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Bignold, Arthur

  Gore, Hon. S.F. Ormsby-(Linc.

  More, Robt, Jasper (Shropshire

  Bigwood, James

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Bond, Edward

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Murray Rt. Hn. A. Graham(Bute

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Myers, William Henry

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Newdegate, Francis A. N.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Gretton, John

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Groves, James Grimble

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Bull, William James

  Halsey Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Butcher, John George

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Percy, Earl

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A(Worc

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Chapman, Edward

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanley)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Charrington, Spencer

  Helder, Augustus

  Purvis, Robert

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Randles, John S.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Roper, Colonel Robert

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Denny, Colonel

  Johnstone, Heywood

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Rigby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marvlelbone, W.)

  Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dix'n

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Seely, Maj J.E.B. (Isle of Wight

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Shaw-Srewart. M. H. (Renfrew

  Doughty, George

  Law Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Smith, HC (North'mb).Tyneside

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Spear, John Ward

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R (Bath

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Stock, James Henry

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Welby, Lt- Col. A. C. E(Taunton

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  NOES.

  Abraham William (Rhondda)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Helme, Norval Walson

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Runciman, Walter

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Samuel, Herbert L. (C1eveland)

  Bell, Richard

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Brigg, John

  Langley, Batty

  Shackleton, David James

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Burt, Thomas

  Leng, Sir John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Caldwell, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cameron, Robert

  Lough, Thomas

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Taylor Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Tennant, Harold John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Cremer, William Randal

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Moss, Samuel.

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Davies, M. Vanghan-(Candigan

  Newnes, Sir George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Norman, Henry

  Weir, James Galloway

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  White, Luke (York, E. R)

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Partington, Oswald

  Whiteley, George, (York W.R.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Priestley Arthur

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Rea, Russell

  Grant, Corrie

  Reckitt, Harold James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rigg, Richard

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  New Clause (local authority's managers)—(Sir William Anson)—added.
  New Clause (grouping of schools under one management)— (Sir William Anson)—added.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed for Tomorrow
  Mr. SPEAKER,Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October last, adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at twenty minutes before Twelve o'clock.

ROYAL ASSENT.

  COMMISSION.
  The following Bills received the Royal Assent:—
  Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 1).
  Water Provisional Order.
  Lanarkshire (Middle Ward District) Water Order Confirmation.
  Dunbarton Corporation (Further Powers) Order Confirmation.
  Wick Burgh Extension Order Confirmation.
  Richmond Hill (Preservation of View).
  South-Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways.
  Baker Street and Waterloo Railway.
  Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway.
  Edgware and Hampstead Railway.
  North-West London Railway.
  Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway (New Lines, &c.).
  Bexhill and Rotherfield Railway (Abandonment).

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 2914. Japan (Kobe).

  SAMOA No. 1 (1902).
  Decision given by His Majesty Oscar II., King of Sweden and Norway, as arbitrator under the Convention signed at Washington the 7th of November, 1899, between the German Empire, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and the United States of America, relating to the statement of certain claims on account of military operations conducted in Samoa in the year 1899; given at Stockholm, 14th October, 1902.
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS, 1853–1891.
  Licence to be at large granted by His Majesty to Henry Goodwin under the
  1226
  provisions of the Servitude Acts 1853–1891, to which are annexed conditions other than those contained in Schedule "A." laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  House adjourned at Four o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.