Sitting of 14 November 1902

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the Clock.
ADJOURNMENT.
Resolved, That this House, at the rising of the House this day, do adjourn till Monday next.—(Sir Alexander Acland-Hood.)
PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES)BILL.
  Petitions against: from Enfield (five); Southgate; Edmonton; Stirling; and Gloucester; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Frampton-on-Severn, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Wavertree, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  petitions in favour: from Aldborough; Adlington; and Hunstanton; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION(IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Additional Rule varying the Rules and Programme of Examinations for 1903 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No.371.]
  COMPANIES (WINDING-UP).
  Copy presented, of Eleventh General Annual Report by the Board of Trade [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No.372.]
  NAVAL EXPENDITURE AND MERCANTILE MARINE (GREAT BRITAIN ETC.).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 17th June; Sir John Colomb]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 373.]
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 2913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  COUNTY BOROUGHS (IRELAND).
  Return ordered, "showing (1) the total rateable value of each of the County Boroughs in Ireland; (2) the borrowing powers of each, distinguishing between their powers under the Public Health (Ireland) Act and local Acts (if any); (3) the amount borrowed by each County Borough on the security of the rates, distinguishing loans from (a) Local Loans Fund, (b) Stock, (c) other sources (exclusive of loans entirely repaid on the 1st day of January last); (4) the amount of loans repaid up to the 1st day of January last (exclusive of loans entirely repaid on the 1st day of January last); (5) the rate in the pound for all purposes levied in each County Borough during the years 1899, 1900, and 1901; and (6) the income (if any) of each County Borough from sources other than the rates."—(Mr. O'Doherty.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Education Bill—Expenses of Local Education Authorities.
  MR. LAMBERT: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if the loan expenses chargeable to present School Board areas will be included in the total expenses of the authority under Part III. of the Education Bill for calculating the Aid Grant payable to the local education authority.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The answer is in the affirmative.

  Soldiers' Gratuities on Transfer to Reserve or Discharge.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state whether any applications for the allowance of £1 for each year's service since 1898 to which a soldier is entitled on discharge have been refused.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Article 1,123 of the Pay Warrant gives

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  a gratuity of £1 a year on transfer to the reserve or discharge, under certain conditions, and there is naturally no record of a refusal to give the gratuity when the conditions have been fulfilled.

  Foreign-made Pencils in Government Offices.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if directions have now been given that foreign pencils are no longer to be supplied to Government offices, and that pencils similar to those now in the Library of the House of Commons are to be substituted.
  (Answered by Mr Hayes Fisher.) No such general directions can be given, irrespective of the price and quality of British and foreign pencils; but for some time past all ordinary pencils purchased by the Stationery Office (exclusive of telegraph pencils) have been of British origin. I am informed that coloured chalk pencils of the make and quality required for the public service cannot be obtained from British manufacturers. Similarly, it was necessary during the year 1901–1902 to purchase 725 gross of special drawing pencils of foreign make for the use of engineers, architects, surveyors, and draughtsmen. I desire to add that, for some time past, all black-lead pencils supplied to the House of Commons have been of British make.

  Great Western Railway—Breakdown near Carmarthen.
  MR. PHILIPPS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether his attention has been called to the breakdown on the Great Western Railway near Carmarthen, on the evening of Tuesday, 16th September; and whether any Board of Trade inquiry has been held into the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The Board of Trade have been informed by the Great Western Railway Company that on the date mentioned a train was delayed near the Ferryside Station owing to the failure of a portion of the eccentric gear upon the engine, but continued its journey as soon as another engine could be procured. Such an occurrence does not form a subject for an inquiry by the Board.

  Crown Property in Scotland—Arrears of Income.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the fact that the Crown property in Scotland is stated to produce an income of £30,789 15s. 1d., and that arrears at the close of the year 1901–2 amounted to £4,822 11s. 4d., will he state the nature of the subjects in respect of which these arrears fell due; and whether any steps have been taken to recover them.
  (Answered by Mr. Hayes Fisher.) Of the entire sum outstanding, £4,433 is in respect of surplus teinds of Elgin parish claimed by the Crown in respect of crops 1856–1876 (first half), for which the heritors dispute their liability. The claim is in abeyance pending the adjustment of a final locality which will it is expected, make clear the rights of the parties. The balance consists of various items of small amount which are being dealt with. I may add that all arrears are fully investigated after the close of each financial year and any necessary steps then taken.

  South Africa War—Charges against British Officers.
  MR. PIRIETo ask the Secretary of State for War, whether the Report called for in reference to the charges made in the Cape Parliament on the 28th August has been received; and, if so, will it be published; are the cases being investigated; and, if so, by whom.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The letter calling for this Report was despatched some weeks ago. The Report will, therefore, in all probability, reach the War Office some time in December.

  Army Promotions—Case of Veterinary Captain Spanton
  MR. JOHN WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been directed to the appointment of Mr. J. P. Spanton to the rank of Veterinary Captain; will he state what qualification he possesses; and if his appointment is in accordance with Article 431 of the Royal Warrant, and Paragraph 40 of the Yeomanry Regulations.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.)Temporary Veterinary Captain Spanton

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  was granted the honorary rank of Veterinary Captain on relinquishing his appointment as Veterinary Officer to the 1st Battalion Imperial Yeomanry. The regulations quoted do not apply to the case, as he has neither been appointed to a commission in the Imperial Yeomanry at home nor to one in the Army Veterinary Department.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE

  Education Bill—The Government Amendments.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I wish to ask whether the Secretary to the Education Department is prepared to make any statement with regard to the effect of the great changes which have this morning only been introduced into the new Grant in aid Clause. Unless an explanation is made forthwith, there may be no opportunity of giving one this afternoon. The money granted is abviously increased in the first part of the Clause, but the lasts part contains words of limitation the effect of which, I fear, may be more than to undo in some places what has previously been done.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I think the right hon. Gentleman has mistaken the effect of the Clause. I do not think it will have the effect which he seems to fear. Whatever happens with regard to the Committee stage of the money Resolution under the existing Rules, I may point out that the Report stage must come on on Monday, when there will be ample time for discussion.
  MR. WHITLEY: This is a great surprise.
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is only entitled to ask a question.
  MR. WHITLEY: May I ask if it is not the fact that the three-fourth limit of the Parlimentary Grant is now proposed to be left out?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is now arguing on the merits of the Amendment.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [MR. J. W. LOWTHER,[MR. J. W. LOWTHER, (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Clause 18—
  DR. MACNAMARAmoved the omission of sub-Section (1.) He said that the sub-Section, in effect, defined all night school work as higher education, which was not merely absolute nonsense, but dangorous nonsense. At least 75 per cent. of the night school work in this country was purely elementary. The Government might see fit to call it higher education, but it could not be made higher education by calling it so, and to call it so would have a most dangerous effect. The Committee of Council's Report for the present year, signed by the Duke of Devonshire and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, said: "As in previous years, the principal subjects of instruction in evening schools under the Code were the elementary subjects—reading, writing, and arithmetic." Then the Report went on to say that 100,696 scholars qualified for the grant in arithmetic; 60,000 in writing and composition, 56,000 in reading and writing combined, and 28,000 in reacting and recitation. The Report for the previous year also stated that the elementary subjects of reading, writing, and arithmetic were more taught than any other in the evening schools. In 1900, 107,000 scholars qualified for the fee grant in arithmetic, 63,000 in writing and composition, 58,000 in writing and reading combined, and 29,000 in reading and recitation. There were hundreds of columns in the Educational Blue-books which bore out his argument, and the inspectors all admitted that the night school work was mainly of a purely elementary character. Dr. Williams, for instance, two years ago reported that while the evening schools continued to do good work, it was impossible to be blind to the fact that much of the time allotted to instruction in science was spent in

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  teaching the elements of reading and writing. Mr. Saumarez said that the evening schools in country districts, particularly in Gloucestershire, could scarcely be called science schools, as their work was practically confined to reviving the dry bones of elementary instruction. Mr. Freeland, reporting from one of the northern districts, said that the great bulk of the night school work must remain purely elementary; while Mr. Danby, writing from the south-east district, said the majority of evening scholars attended the classes in order to make up their deficiences in elementary subjects, and to regain what they had forgotten of their school learning. There were men absolutely illiterate who had moral courage enough to sit down among lads, and in one case a man of forty years had joined a school so that he might be able to read the cricket scores in the Brighton Argus next summer. It was clear from all these reports that the great bulk of night school work was, and must remain, of an elementary nature, and, therefore, he impressed on the Government the extreme danger of the definition in the Clause. As to the financial effect, that would not make any difference with regard to county boroughs, which could raise as much money as they liked for elementary education, but it would put a rather heavy burden on the money at their disposal for other kinds of education. With the aid of a small grant from the Exchequer they had to provide for technical instruction, the development of higher education, and the training of pupil teachers, out of the rates, and if to that were to be added the provision of elementary night schools it would mean overburdening the amount of money at their disposal. He was told the other night that all he cared for was elementary instruction. If that were so he would hail with satisfaction this proposal of the Government, because it would leave so much more money free for elementary education by transferring the burden of these schools to the secondary education fund. But it was doing a serious injury to higher education, and, therefore, he opposed it. It was vitally essential to keep the night school in close touch with the day school; they must not have the two divorced, otherwise the children
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  leaving the day school would never find their way into the night school. It might be all right in the county boroughs and rural areas, where there would be practically one authority, but in the 140 municipal boroughs with over 10,000 population and the sixty-one urban districts with over 20,000 population, there would be no coordination of education, because the authority would be a divided one. This difficulty had arisen because of the enormous changes made in the Bill, and he would suggest to the Government that they should drop the definition Clause right out. It was not wanted now, and the Secretary to the Board of Education, recognising that a great deal of the work was elementary, could supply the local authorities with two codes—a night school code for elementary work and a night school code for higher work.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 28, to leave out sub-Section (1)."—(Dr. Macnamara.)
  Question proposed "That sub-Section (1) stand part of the Clause."
  THE SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION Sir WILLIAM ANSON)said this matter was not being discussed for the first time. The hon. Member for North Camberwell had no doubt advanced a formidable array of reasons why evening schools should continue to be regarded as public elementary schools.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Some of them.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the Government thought it was very desirable that there should be a definition of a public elementary school, and that definition they had endeavoured to put into this Clause. The present condition of the evening schools was very clearly and fully described by the late Vice-President of the Council in the debate which took place on the Education Estimates last year, when he described the evening schools as the most chaotic part of the whole of our chaotic system. The Government hoped that in the future adults would not have

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  to go to evening schools in order to obtain education which they ought to have got in the public elementary day schools. It could not be said that the system described by the hon. Member was a satisfactory system. It was a reflection on the working of our elementary schools that so large a proportion of the evening continuation classes should be made up of adults who wanted to learn to read a newspaper. The Government hoped that state of things would be remedied, and that a very much smaller proportion of the work done in the evening schools would be of an education elementary character. As the Clause stood, there was noting to prevent elementary education being given in the evening schools. It was desirable that schools so miscellaneous in the character of their teaching, and so miscellaneous in the age of the persons who received that teaching, should be separated from the public elementary day schools, which were intended to provide the best education they could devise for boys and girls who had to go forth to the work of life. It must be borne in mind that some of the most valuable work of these evening schools was carried on outside the range of elementary education, and was not entitled to be paid for out of the rates, but was paid for out of the rates before the Cockerton judgment. The Government wanted to give full power to the local authorities to adapt the evening schools in their areas to the needs of their districts. He thought that the municipal authorities who would have the power to raise a penny rate under Clause 3 would not be slow to exercise that power to meet the wants of the population. He hoped that the local education authority would find no great difficulty in securing that elementary education should work on into higher elementary and secondary education with the smoothness that was desired to be effected by this Bill. The grants made to these evening continuation schools were liberal enough. Of course not less than 25 per cent, of the expenditure had to be provided out of the local contributions, but with the assistance now contemplated he did not think they would be starved, that the elementary education given in them would not be adequate to the requirements of the population, or that
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  the higher education would in any way be found to be deficient for the wants of the particular area. The object of this Clause was really to differentiate the various classes of schools. They could not divide the work of one evening school into elementary and secondary. They must regard the evening schools as a whole, and give the local authority full power to deal with them. He could not help thinking that the Clause as it stood would promote smoothness of working both for the local authority and the Department, and the efficiency of the education given in the schools.
  MR. BRYCEsaid the time at their disposal for discussion was very limited indeed, and he would, therefore, be as brief as possible. But he desired to point out that under the guise of a definition Clause they were introducing a substantial and important change. Technically, he admitted they were carrying out the Cockerton judgment and perpetuating what the Cockerton judgment declared to be the law. 'But for many years before that judgment was passed these schools were treated as elementary, and, therefore, in reversing their position they were making a new departure under the guise of an interpretation Clause. He had listened with interest to the speech of the Secretary to the Board of Education in defence of the Clause, but they could not ignore the fact that the largest part of the education given in most of the evening schools of the country was elementary, and it would have been a far simpler plan to have either divided the elementary from the secondary education, or else to have invited the secondary authority to delegate the control of so much as was elementary to the elementary authority, which he sure they would be willing to do. The hon. Gentleman had expressed a hope that secondary education would have ample provision made for it, and that elementary education would be so improved that the need for giving it in night schools would not continue. But those who were acquainted with the conditions of rural life well knew that for some time to come, at all events, many children in our rural districts would, unless our educational system was screwed up to a much higher point, leave the day schools imperfectly

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  furnished with a knowledge of elementary subjects. Any clergyman who took an interest in school work would tell them that unless evening schools were provided the children would relapse into ignorance after leaving the day schools. They must adapt their system to that state of things and endeavour to keep young people between fifteen and seventeen years of age in touch with the elementary teachers. He was sorry that the Government did not realise the true facts of the case. There were three reasons why he objected to the scheme of this definition Clause. The first reason was that this education was elementary, and would continue to be elementary. What was the use of calling a thing by another name? It was elementary education before the Cockerton judgment, and the Cockerton judgment had not altered the facts. Secondly, the elementary part of the education given in these evening schools ought to be under the authority which controlled elementary education. That was common-sense. But under this Clause they were creating the overlapping and conflict of authority which the Bill was intended to remove. Lastly, there was the question of expense. It was common ground that their greatest need was to develop secondary education. Under this Clause they would take a large and costly branch of education and throw it over to secondary education. By doing so they made it less likely that the higher branches of secondary education could be provided for out of the rates. Fear of an increase in the rates would be the dominant feeling in many counties, and, as elementary education must be provided for, it would be secondary education that would go to the wall. That in itself was conclusive against this change, and in the interests of secondary education as well as of the children whose education had been neglected and for whom evening schools were so much needed, he earnestly hoped that the Committee would not approve this definition Clause.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that the evening schools used to be under two separate Departments of the Government and two separate local authorities. They were under the Science and Art Department and the Board of Education until the
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  Cockerton judgment, which decided that no evening school could be a public elementary school if it taught persons above the age of childhood anything else than elementary instruction, gave the Board of Education an opportunity of putting an end to the chaos. During the last year or two these schools had ceased to be public elementary schools and had become schools for higher instruction. It was true that in the schools of higher instruction which took the place of the evening elementary schools, a great deal of elementary instruction was given; and it was a great disgrace to our elementary system that it should be necessary to teach again to young persons of seventeen the things which the public had already paid for them to learn. But this instruction was only given to prepare the pupils for technical education. Under a Minute issued by the Board of Education, power was reserved to School Boards to carry on evening schools for teaching elementary subjects to children; but in only twenty cases had the power been exercised. Now that the evening schools had been unified, it was proposed by this Amendment to establish again two classes—elementary evening schools and higher evening schools. Nothing could be more pernicious, because it would reintroduce the old confusion where there were two local education authorities. It would reintroduce the very system which he described as chaos in this House two or three years ago. The mischief was that the two authorities would overlap and establish rival schools, and in order to attract scholars they would teach not what the people needed to be taught, but what they wanted to learn; all sorts of inducements in the way of recreations would be offered to entice scholars to one school or the other. If the Amendment were carried it would not effect the object of its supporters, because without a definition of "evening schools" the law as laid down in the Cockerton judgment would prevail. It would undo all the good which in the last two years had resulted from the consolidation of the evening schools, and it would reintroduce chaos. He was astonished at the description given by the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen of the secondary education given in the country districts. It was not, except in some

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  benighted regions of the country perhaps, the mere reopening of the village day schools in the evening.
  MR. BRYCE: I know a case within thirty miles of London.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that there were many benighted districts within 30 miles of London. In the very sparsely populated county of Cambridgeshire every young person had within reach a technical school in which metal work, basket work, and the like were taught. That was the sort of evening school that was wanted. It was not desirable to cover the country with evening schools for the purpose of teaching persons to read the newspaper so that they might have better access to the sporting intelligence. They wanted to provide proper evening schools where the instruction already received in day schools was carried to a higher level, and where technical instruction could be given to the people who deserved and needed it.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid the right hon. Gentleman had no doubt pictured an ideal state of things, but the fact remained that there were hundreds of thousands of young people over the age of fourteen in need of elementary instruction, and if a hold were to be obtained over these young people it was most necessary to keep up their connection with the ordinary day schools. Were they now to put obstacles in their way of getting practical instruction, or should they help them? That was the point the Committee had to decide. As to the suggestion that these boys and girls ought not to need such instruction, it might be worth considering how far the Education Department Code was responsible for the defective way in which they were turned out. Our boys and girls unfortunately left the elementary schools at a much earlier age than was to be desired; they left at a period before they began to appreciate the advantage of knowledge, before even they appreciated the necessity of putting into practice the limited instruction they had received. Many at once entered on manual occupations in which they needed not to exercise their talents, except, perhaps, for the purpose of reading a newspaper, and it was not until they
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  were seventeen or eighteen that they began to appreciate the necessity of reviving their limited educational acquirements. Was it well, then, to exclude them from the opportunity of doing so? This was one of the most important questions the Committee had ever discussed. He felt it was absolutely necessary that these young people should be kept in some sort of relationship with the day-school organisation. He had had some little experience of the training of young people in day schools, and he found that if there was between the ages of fourteen and sixteen a breaking off of these connections, it was extremely difficult to get them renewed. If, on the other hand, the connections were maintained unbroken, the boys and girls made friends with the teachers, good companionships were formed, and the elementary education gradually progressed into the secondary stage. If the Prime Minister had had practical acquaintance with some of these schools, he would have shown more sympathy with the desire to maintain them. No doubt at one time, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had said, a very chaotic condition did exist, but the local authorities could easily overcome that. In his own city they had succeeded to a very large extent by co-operation between the School Board and the Technical Education Committee. He did not see why there should be any danger of overlapping, now that they had one authority under the Bill. There were two classes of young people they ought to cater for—those who, by reason of their ability, and the keenness of their desire for education, desired to avail themselves of the technical and secondary schools, and the still larger number who in their school days had not appreciated their somewhat limited opportunities of education and still required, therefore, instruction in the three R's. He did feel that the Committee were undertaking a very serious responsibility in not so arranging that the hundreds of thousands of young people who were willing to improve themselves in elementary education should not be deprived of future facilities. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that the School Boards had not availed themselves of the facilities which former Acts had

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  given them in regard to the establishment of evening schools, but the regulations issued by the Board of Education were entirely responsible for that. He sincerely hoped that the Prime Minister would either delete this sub-Section or accept his more moderate Amendment which was on the Paper.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid he was entirely in sympathy with the hon. Member as to the evening continuation schools; but his belief was that the sub-Section would not discourage these evening schools. The County Council of his own county had found it to be perfectly easy to run these evening schools under the regulations of the Education Department, and he could not see why the new education authority should not be able to do so under the proposed regulations. He would like to remind the Committee that the Royal Commission on Secondary Education had recommended that the secondary education authority should have jurisdiction over the evening continuation schools. He knew that in many of these schools elementary subjects were taught, and he should object to any system which would prevent the education authority from providing such elementary education. It bad been said that it would be impossible to adapt elementary to secondary education in the schools in the larger towns, but he thought that could be done by the powers of delegation given to the local education authority. He insisted that these evening continuation schools should be kept in touch with the higher education, and that the secondary education authority should have control over them.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid he sympathised with the Amendment of the hon. Member for Norfolk. He felt that a great deal of difficulty had been raised in reference to this matter on purely academic grounds. It was impossible to draw a straight line between primary and secondary education, and these evening continuation schools had done a vast amount of good in helping to improve the elementary education of the working classes. They had had adult schools
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  in Birmingham even before 1870, and in these schools the education of some of their ablest and best citizen had been developed. This system of mixed education which had grown up would be checked and destroyed if the Bill were passed in its present form. It was very important to give an opportunity to dull children, who had awakened to the importance of self-improvement, to acquire further advance in elementary education.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he would appeal to the Committee to come to a decision on the Amendment. The point was not a novel one, and the Committee had a great deal of work before it.
  SIR. WILLIAM MATHERsaid he would respectfully take note of the appeal made by the Prime Minister, but he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that this was a question which had not been largely dealt with by the Committee on its merits. This was purely an education question per se. He would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could show the Committee, if Clause 18 passed in its present shape, what would happen to boys and girls who had attained the adult limit of age, eighteen, and who were anxious to improve themselves further. In all the technical schools at present it was found necessary to provide elementary instruction for a certain class of children coming up from the Board Schools. Without further elementary instruction they could not begin to understand even the terms used in elementary science teaching. Consequently these boys and girls would have no chance of obtaining that education afterwards. Instead of there being a link in the chain between secondary and elementary schools, there would be a void which could not be filled by any provision whatever contained in this Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman or the Secretary to the Board of Education could only say that under the provisions of this Bill the local education authority could provide in secondary schools for higher elementary education, then there would be some possibility of connecting the elementary and secondary schools as one co-ordinated whole. In the absence

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  of this provision many children would not be fitted to enter the secondary schools. He should like to be informed whether the Bill sufficiently provided for the continuance of the education of those children who left elementary schools under the age of fifteen years. Possibly those children might get the degree of higher elementary education in the secondary schools. What provision was there in this Bill for such children to develop their faculties just at the time of life which above all others was most important for their own advancement? It was in this particular aim and this particular connection of one class of education with the other that future of this country very largely depended for its intelligence. In all the technical schools with which he was acquainted they had to provide elementary classes for the children coming out of Board Schools, in order that they might be prepared for the secondary education provided in these technical school. In this respect the Bill was an unmitigated retrogression against the interests of education as a whole, because there was nothing in tins measure to provide in the future for the bridging over of this difficulty in such a manner as would give to this country those educational advantages which other countries possessed.
  SIR JAMES RANKINthought that they ought to carry out the desire of the Prime Minister and not carry this discussion to any further length. He agreed with the Government in regard to the method of conducting the evening continuation schools. There was a certain amount of contradiction about this proposal, because in Clause 2 it was laid down that—
  "The local education authority may supply, or aid supply of, education other than elementary."
  It seemed to him that some difficulty might arise on that point. If there was a good reply to that question he should like to have an authoritative answer from the Government.
  SIR EDWARD GREY, said if he might venture to make a guess at the answer of the Government to the question put by the hon. Gentleman opposite it would
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  be that there was no answer at all. The Government were trying to do what was impossible; they were drawing a hard and fast line between higher and elementary education, and they were doing this to prevent overlapping. There was a danger that they might have two sets of schools under different authorities competing one with the other in the same area and trying to draw the scholars from one school to another. How was that to be obviated? Certainly not by drawing a hard and fast line. The way out of the difficulty was to consider what was laid down in the discussion upon the first Clause of the Bill If the Government would reconsider the arguments then used about higher education, and have the courage to carry out more the principle of one authority, they would do away with this difficulty. Then they would get education co-ordinated. There was a want of co-ordination not only between the different kinds of education but also between the different kinds of education given in the same schools. The schools would be under one authority in the day time and another in the evening. This difficulty all arose on account of the mistake made in the beginning of the Bill and if they would only deal with that, this difficulty, which was solely the creation of the Government, could be easily removed by carrying this principle to its logical conclusion.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD, referring to the evening continuation schools, asked what did they find was in reality done? They found that the boys left school at a much too early age and went to work. They became either discontented or anxious to know more than they did before. They came to think that there was a possibility of them adding more to the wage-earning power of the family, and they returned to the evening continuation schools. Take as an illustration the eastern countries. They could not tell him that the bulk of the children going to the evening schools were fit to begin the elementary part of what was called secondary education. Many of those boys and girls if they did not attend the evening schools were unable, after a time, even to read and write, and if they were anxious to continue their education it was the elementary portion they required. Their anxiety was to be able to read and write correctly

  1051
  and fit themselves for secondary education. If elementary education was to be allowed to form part of the evening school work, the proper authority would be the same body as conducted the elementary education. He confessed that he felt extremely anxious about this proposal.
  MR. HELMEthought the late Vice-President of the Council had taken too generous a view of the class of work done under the Code in evening continuation schools. When he said they had become "schools of higher instruction," the fact was a large proportion were teaching the three R's. They ought to have this Bill so worded that the education which was elementary should still be under the Elementary Department of the Government whether in day or night schools. The Secretary of the Board of Education had told them that this work in the boroughs would be continued under the penny rate, which would be still available for secondary instruction. But it was already absorbed, and he thought it was unfair that in those districts which were willing to tax themselves with an additional penny rate that the money intended for the higher educational and technological work of the locality should be applied to lower standards. These continuation schools had been a great success. The pupils had inceased from 96,542 in 1892 to 546,405 in 1901, therefore let them be kept in touch with day schools and not be transferred to county authorities. Continuity of instruction was the great thing which they desired. They found children leaving the day school with imperfect education, and then waking up to the necessity of beginning again. He thought the greatest possible inducement should be given to these young people, and if the true interests of the country were studied the Government would see to it that it was made as easy as possible for these young people to get again on the educational ladder. The number attending these evening classes over twenty-one years of age in 1892 was 4,993, but in the year 1901 that total had increased to 90,516. That showed conclusively that there was a great need for these schools. They must not be restricted in matter of age limit, but be free as now to those of any age who desired to attend
  1052
  them over fifteen. He joined in pressing the Government to alter the Clause accordingly.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid that surely the Government must see that there was a considerable difference of opinion upon this proposal on both sides of the House. In the rural areas a difficulty undoubtedly existed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had sketched a fancy picture of what should be, but the hon. and gallant Member who had just spoken had stated the facts which they must recognise today. There was the gravest danger that in small villages evening continuation schools would be crushed out of existence. There was no class more deserving of assistance under the Bill than children who, having been obliged to leave school at a very early age, desired to improve themselves by going to these evening continuation schools. He believed it was beyond the wit of man to define what was primary and what was secondary education. And surely it was ridiculous to say that work done in a school between 9 and 12 o'clock in the day was primary education, and that the same class of work done between 7 and 9 o'clock in the evening was higher education. He appealed to the Government to find some way out of the difficulty. The Clause was not satisfactory, and the Amendment was not satisfactory. Surely between this and the Report stage the right hon. Gentleman would be able to find some form of words which would enable the elementary evening continuation schools to be continued, and thus meet the wishes of both sides of the Committee without destroying in any way the fabric of his Bill. Something must be done for these children. They were often those who had been neglected when very little and who now had a laudable ambition to improve their position. Unless some satisfactory assurance was given he should support the Amendment.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Government were perfectly clear that they must differentiate between primary and secondary education, for the reason, if for no other, that there were a large number of boroughs which had the right to give primary education but

  1053
  not secondary education. He had not forgotten that hon. Gentlemen opposite had contended that these boroughs should have been placed for primary as well as secondary education under the heels of the County Councils. It was very easy for critics, who had not to carry the Bill, to say how very nice the Bill would be if it ran on lines more theoretically perfect. But that had never been a possible policy. It was not a possible policy now. They had to deal with facts as they found them. He was convinced that any attempt to turn a primary school into a secondary school would lead to that overlapping which they all wished to avoid. The difficulty was to reconcile two perfectly sound views; the view of the Government—that true secondary education ought to be clearly defined so as to prevent overlapping, and the other view that if there was a limit of age there was included in that something that was not secondary education and never could be. In secondary education was included the teaching of very elementary subjects, but that was only intended as a step to the higher education, and if a boy when sent to our great public schools was put in the lowest form he would get education which might be called elementary, but which there was no doubt was secondary, from the very beginning. Sub-Section (1) must stand in some form. To meet the difficulty he suggested the addition of the following words at the end of the sub-Section—
  "Other than a school in which no other education is given except such as is given in a primary elementary day school."
  MR. BRYCEthought the proposed words would be an improvement on the sub-Section.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYalso said that the Amendment was a very great improvement on the sub-Section, and that it would remove the major part of the difficulty.
  MR. JOHN WILSONthought the real difficulty of the Committee was in trying to define too closely and too rigidly the duties of the local education authority. What was required was to place more trust and more confidence in the local authorities than was
  1054
  now being done. He did not think that what was being taught in night schools could in any way be described as secondary education, because all it did was to take a boy at the age, say, of thirteen or fourteen, and lead him on and fit him to receive the secondary education that would be provided for him. The tendency of the human mind was to forget, and if this limit was left and the boy suddenly taken away from school he would forget all that he had learnt. In the night schools the boy would not only increase his knowledge but remember that which he already possessed. He desired to support the proposal that the continuation schools should be placed unreservedly under the local education authority.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid nobody wanted to stop these night schools, or to take them out of the purview of the local authority, and there would be no difficulty at all if it were not for the existence of certain urban districts and boroughs in which there were two local authorities. He entirely agreed with the First Lord of the Treasury that this, though a theoretical blemish on the Bill, was a thing which was essential to the passing of the measure through the House. The question was, to which of the two authorities—the county authority or the borough or urban district authority—the control of these schools should be given. It was essential that there should not be two kinds of authorities, otherwise the whole difficulty which had embarrassed the Board of Education for years, and which the Cockerton judgment put an end to, would be reintroduced. There were at present different schools giving technical, secondary, and elementary education. Why disturb them, or interfere with a proceeding now going on with great satisfaction, and to the great advantage of education, by insisting on reintroducing the evil of two rival authorities?
  MR. BRYCEsaid he was sensible of the difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman felt in adopting words on the spur of the moment, but he suggested the following form of words—"The expression 'elementary school'

  1055
  shall not include any evening school which the regulations of the Board of Education shall declare to be secondary or technical."
  MR. HELMEsaid before the Prime Minister replied he would urge him to promise that provision should be definitely made for the giving of instruction in the evening continuation schools to pupils of any age over 15, and also that the term "school" should include "class," because in many wide rural districts it was impossible to establish a proper school, and so the authorities might have at times to be content with a single class in each village.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he could not say that he was quite satisfied with the form of words suggested, and yet he was not quite happy about leaving the matter entirely till the Report stage. An hon. Gentleman opposite had courteously handed him words which he thought were simpler than his hon. friend's words—"where any part of the education given is other than elementary." It was, however, quite possible that that might not prove satisfactory on further consideration, and he was ready to leave the matter over.
  DR. MACNAMARAurged that the words first suggested were preferable. He was afraid, however, that under the words as they stood, it would not be possible to give even elementary education to anybody over fifteen years of age, in a night school. He would like an assurance that such a thing would be provided against.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that that followed as a matter of course.
  DR. MACNAMARA: But if there is any legal doubt about it, the Government will attend to it?
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: Yes.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that if he gave a promise to deal with the matter on Report it must be subject to the exigencies of the Parliamentary situation, but he would do his best to meet the
  1056
  situation. The Government held that secondary education in the true sense of the word—that was to say, education which, though it went to the higher subjects, might begin lower, and which in its essentials was to be distinguished from primary education, and was not a mere continuation of primary education—ought to rest with the education authority. On the other hand, they quite admitted that in those districts where primary education proper was left to a subordinate authority, that authority ought not to be prevented from giving what was truly primary education to persons who were above the age of fifteen. That was really the point. That which was strictly elementary before the age of fifteen did not cease to be elementary after that age, and the Government would endeavour to find some method by which that point should be covered.
  DR. MACNAMARAsuggested that the Prime Minister would get out of his difficulty by accepting the first form of words. All danger from "Parliamentary exigencies" would then be avoided.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid he also should prefer the bird in the hand, having regard to Parliamentary uncertainties.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEwished the Prime Minister had more confidence in his own words. The first form was much wider than the second.
  MR. EMMOTTsaid they had always declared they could not define what "education other than elementary" was, but they could draw the line as to what was the education given in public elementary schools. He therefore hoped the right hon. Gentleman's first words would be adopted.
  MR. BRIGGurged that the widest possible scope should be given to the powers necessary for carrying on the continuation schools.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the words he had suggested were "where the education given was other than elementary." The difficulty was

  1057
  that by the words of the Prime Minister the situation was that no school could be an elementary school where there would be a single class teaching a secondary subject, because then that school would not be an elementary school.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he hoped the Committee would allow them to finish this sub-Section. He proposed to add at the end of the sub-Section the words—
  "Where any part of the education given is other than elementary."
  He hoped the Committee would allow the Clause to pass down to the end of sub-Section (2).
  DR. MACNAMARA: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 31, after 'education,' to insert the words 'where any part of the education given is other than elementary.'"—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Amendment agreed to. (2.0.)
  MR. BRYCEsaid he wished to move the Amendment standing in his name on the Paper, to insect after "the Board of Education" the words "to pupil teachers and." The education to be given to pupil teachers was so purely elementary that no argument was necessary to recommend his Amendment to the Government.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 35, after the word 'Education,' to insert the words 'to pupil teachers and.'"—(Mr. Bryce)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,)said he was afraid that the Government could not accept this Amendment.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid he hoped that the Government would not accept the Amendment since it would stop the education of pupil teachers in secondary
  1058
  schools, which he hoped would go on. This was one of the projects by which the School Board invaded the domain of secondary education. They could not hold to the old system, and it was better now to encourage real secondary education in schools where the pupil teachers would be trained to the teaching profession.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid that if he thought for a moment that the result of his right hon. friend's Amendment would be to destroy the instruction of pupil teachers in the secondary schools he would be disposed to agree with the right hon. the Member for Cambridge University. If it was proposed to give a far higher sum out of Government resources in aid of higher education, he did not see why an arrangement might not be made to cover the expense of such teaching.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that it seemed to him that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman was of the most reactionary kind ever made in the course of these debates. He had always thought that one of the great things which they ought to aim at was to raise the character and the tone of pupil teachers from the beginning of their career to their final employment under the Education Code. He had taken the deepest interest for many years in pupil teachers' centres, which occupied a position between the elementary and the secondary schools. If they were to give a higher tone to elementary education they must endeavour to do it by the influences coming from a higher secondary education. He thought that great injury had been done to education by some of the concessions which the Government had made already, and he hoped the Government would not go further in the direction of degrading Instead of elevating education.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he attached importance to the Amendment because he thought it was valuable; but he recognised the fact that it was in the power of the Government to defeat it, and he asked leave to withdraw it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he wished to move as an Amendment, to strike out the words in sub-Section (2), limiting instruction in public elementary schools to "scholars of not more than fifteen years of age." Assuming that these words were put in by way of compliance with the Cockerton judgment, he maintained that there was nothing in that judgment to require promising children to be resolutely turned out of the school at the age named. In rural districts, where it would not be always possible to switch off a scholar to a secondary school in some neighbouring town, the restriction in the Clause would have most deplorable results. In Scotland, the Code provided that children might stay in the public elementary schools until they were eighteen years of age; and there were, roughly speaking, 7000 pupils in elementary schools in that country over fifteen years of age. Why should they in England, be debarred from having at east as many pupils staying in the elementary schools, whose parents were content to allow them to remain there, in order to get a little beyond the rudiments of ordinary instruction? He sincerely hoped he would not appeal in vain for this modification of the Clause. Although he sympathised with the desire that gave birth to it, he opposed the fifteen years of age limit because he was convinced that it would create gaps in secondary education. If working men were prepared to allow their children to remain at school and forego their earning capacity, the least the country could do was to permit the children to remain at school
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 36, to leave out the word of not more than fifteen years of age.'"—(Dr. Macnamara.)
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid this age limit was a matter of policy from which the Government could not depart. The Scotch system was different from the English in that, in Scotland, elementary and secondary education were dealt with in the same schools. One of the main objects of this Bill was to secure
  1060
  that, when their public elementary course was concluded, children who had the time and opportunity should have every chance of getting a higher education in secondary schools. The opinion of the Government was that a school must be one thing or the other. Elementary day schools were intended for boys and girls who, about the age of fifteen, had to go and make their way in life. After that age evening and secondary schools were provided for them, if they had the opportunity to use them. If they had not the opportunity, all that could be done was to provide as good a system of public elementary education as was possible. In the elementary schools it was desirable to concentrate the attention of the teacher on the children generally, and not to lead an ambitious teacher to apply him self to push a clever child. If the age limit were extended there would be an infinitely greater variety of children in the schools, there would be a risk that the duller children would be left behind, and public elementary teaching not be as good as that which the Government hoped would be obtained. Another objection to the abolition of the age limit was that it would bring elementary schools into competition with secondary schools, and that was the very thing the Bill was designed to prevent. The Government did not think it necessary to take the Scotch system into consideration, believing, as they did, that the best system for England was the one they had adopted. When the hon. Member said that the children would be ruled out at the age of fifteen, he might say that the Government would be quite prepared to accept the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen, which would allow a child to complete his school year, though he might attain the age of fifteen before the end of it.
  MR. YOXALLsaid the promise of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board to accept the Amendment of the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen to allow a child trained in an elementary school to complete his school year after he reached fifteen, was satisfactory as far as it went; but the Committee were very disappointed to hear the hon. Gentleman defend Clause 18 as it stood. As he understood the hon. Gentleman

  1061
  he was still confined in his ideas to the old distinctive division between the elementary and secondary education, This Bill proposed to allow the local authorities to provide two kinds of instruction; but he (Mr. Yoxall) thought it might best be left to the local authorities to draw the line where it was thought it ought to be drawn. It might suit a locality to say that both kinds of education should go on in the one school, which might be more economical than otherwise. The object of the Government in this case was clear—it was to enable them to identify a child in the secondary school to whom they were giving the grant. But his argument was, that the hon. Gentleman might give the grant to the same child in a higher elementary school. He contended that if a child could get another near of continuous education in an elementary school it would be far cheaper than if he went to a secondary school for it. He regretted that the hon. Gentleman had thought well to stand up for this particular Clause, which was unnecessary, which was not inherent to the Bill and which was a legacy left by a mischief-making Vice-president to the Board of Education.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the difference between the hon. Member opposite and the Board of Education was that the hon. Member would give clever children a sham secondary education, and the Board of Education desired to give them a real one. The hon. Member recommended the keeping of the children in elementary schools because it was cheaper, and it cost less to give a boy the extra instruction in an elementary school. That was the kind of recommendation which the hon. Gentleman made of this proposal. The idea of the Board of Education was that it was better to take the clever children out of the elementary schools and to give them the higher education their talents deserved. There was, no doubt, a strong temptation to the teacher to keep a clever boy, and it was much better that he should go where he would meet other boys as clever as himself, rather than that he should remain a conceited, overtaught,
  1062
  overweening boy in an elementary school where, to use a vulgar expression, he was cock of the walk. In the rural districts he would get to the secondary school by the proper method of county scholarships. There were already in almost every county in England county scholarships by which promising boys and girls could pass from elementary schools to higher schools. Under the present Bill this so-called educations ladder would, no doubt, be greatly improved. That was the real way to deal with clever boys. It was no use keeping clever and promising pupils in elementary schools, where they did not get the higher instruction which their talents merited. If we wanted a national system of education it was essential that we should make our system a "capacity-catching machine," by which capable children would be taken to a higher school where they could really get the sort of instruction they needed.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONthought that the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had given a more encouraging support to the Bill than he did formerly. He regretted the statement of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education, that the Scotch system was not applicable to England. It was necessary that the first rung of the educational ladder should be in the elementary school, and now, so far as he could see, the Government intended not only to knock away that first rung, but the last rung also. If county scholarships were in general prevalence all over England, one would not care so much, but it was not upon that ground that the hon. Gentleman had defended the proposal of the sub-Section. He dissented entirely from the view that the Scotch system was not desirable or practicable in England.
  MR. JOHN WILSONthought the decision at which the Government had arrived was due to a lack of knowledge of the country districts and the difficulty in the way of the scholars attending secondary schools. The authority would not be able to provide many secondary schools, and if the boys and girls were taken away from the elementary schools at fifteen, there was no

  1063
  place in the counties where they could continue their studies. In the boroughs, where secondary schools could be formed, it would be no doubt an easy matter, but in the counties it would be a difficult thing for the children to get secondary education; they would be cut off from school life altogether. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had rather exaggerated the power to obtain scholarships; besides which he (Mr. Wilson) did not agree with a policy which would only take account of the superior pupils. There were many other pupils who might be of great use to their country, but whose intellects were less ready in learning. In many districts there were boys and girls who at sixteen or seventeen years of age began to realise that they had not previously made the best use of their time, and wished to make good their deficiencies. He submitted that this provision would interfere with the proper equipment of our boys and girls for competition with other nations. He hoped the Government would reconsider their decision.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsympathised with the feeling expressed by the hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the Committee, but reminded hon. Gentlemen that throughout the whole of Western Europe thirteen was the age limit for primary education. In one or two Swiss cantons it was fourteen. With regard to Scotland, he had observed that for that country there was no such thing as an Elementary Education Act, and it was owing to the fact that it was an "Education Act," and not an Elementary Education Act, that there was such a great difference between the education of Scotland and England. Another objection to raising the age limit was that it would be necessary to have a higher class in the elementary school, which had a great attraction to the elementary school teacher, and which, in his opinion, would be more or less disastrous to elementary education. Children at the present time were not sufficiently well grounded; the teachers and the parents of the children were, he thought, too ambitious, and the children were pressed on too much, and he thought it would be better to give the children a more thorough
  1064
  foundation of knowledge, and not to increase the age limit.
  DR. MACNAMARAasked if the Government would be prepared to allow the local authority a discretion to retain a pupil beyond the age of fifteen if there should be no provision for higher education within the district.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he believed that one of the methods recommended by the Secondary Education Commission was in this direction.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he could only undertake to consider this point, which had but a distant relation to the Amendment.
  DR. MACNAMARA,relying on this consideration, begged leave to be allowed to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. BRYCEthought that the Amendment he now moved, to permit the local education authority to allow a scholar to remain in a school to the end of the school year in which he or she attained the age of fifteen years, was obviously a convenient one, and as he understood the Government proposed to accept it, he would move it without any further observation.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 37, at end, to insert the words 'but any scholar may remain in such school to the close of the school year in which he or she reaches the age of fifteen.'"—(Mr. Bryce.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 37, at end, to insert the words '(3) Where before the passing of this Act fees have been charged in any public elementary school the local education authority shall, while they continue to charge fees in respect of that school, pay such proportion of those fees as may be agreed upon, or, in default of agreement, determined by the Board of Education, to the managers.'"—(Sir Willam Anson.)
  MR. WHITLEYon a point of order, called attention to the fact that this point had already been decided by

  1065
  the Committee, and therefore, he submitted, this Amendment was out of order. The Committee on the previous day had passed the words on the top of page 6, in Clause 13, that the fees of any school should be paid to the authority.
  THE CHAIRMANthanked the hon. Member for pointing out this matter, but regretted that he had not had the hon. Gentleman's assistance before. Having had to give way once, he saw no alternative but to give way again.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON,on the point of order, submitted that sub-Section (3) was not in order. It was an Amendment to a definition Clause and had nothing to do with it. There was nothing in the Clause except definitions of matters incidental to the Clauses. This had nothing whatever to do with definitions, and it was absolutely out of order in its present place.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYread sub-Section (2)and sub-Section (5,)and pointed out that neither of them were really definitions.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONpointed out that both the provisions alluded to by the hon. and learned Attorney General were limited. He submitted that this Amendment was out of order.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he was disposed to agree. He thought that this was really a definition Clause; both the second and fifth sub-Sections were definitions, and, that being so, the Amendment would be out of order.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 41, at end, to insert the words '(4) In this Act the expression "minor local authority" means the council of any borough or urban district, or the parish council or (where there is no parish council) the parish meeting of any parish, which appears to the County Council to be served by the school. Where the school appears to the County Council to serve the area of more than one minor local authority the County Council shall make such provision as they think proper for joint appointment by the authorities concerned.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. BRYCE,in the absence of the hon. Member for East Nottingham, begged leave to move the Amendment standing on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 41, at end, to insert the words '(4) In this Act the words "persons," and "managers," shall include women.'"—(Mr. Bryce.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYobjected that this would tend to throw doubt on the general proposition that "persons" included either sex. He thought it was quite unnecessary to put such a definition in the Bill.
  MR. BRYCEsuggested that it was not a definition at all, but an enactment.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that in substance it was a definition.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid he desired to move the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for East Somerset.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Is that a definition?
  MR. WHITLEYsubmitted that the words, "The powers of a local education authority under this Act shall include" was a very clear definition indeed.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 3, at end, to insert the words 'The powers of a local education authority under this Act shall include the provision of vehicles or the payment of reasonable travelling expenses for teachers or children attending school whenever the local education authority shall consider such provision or payment required by the circumstances of their district or of any part thereof.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 3, to add, as a new sub-Section, '(5) In this Act the expression "college" includes any educational institution, whether residential or not.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he had not had time to look into it, but he would like to know whether the term "educational institution" included theological institutions, because they also were educational institutions.
  MR. JAMES HOPEasked whether the term "educational institution" would include hostels where no lectures were given, but where students lived, and which were affiliated to some other institution to which the students went by day for the purpose of lectures, because in Clause 4 there was a certain ambiguity. "Hostels" were included in some cases and left out in others.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONasked whether the words "educational college" had been brought into any other Clause except Clause 4.
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid a hostel which was simply a boarding house would not be included. If it was affiliated to another institution, no question would arise, because then it would be part of a whole, and would be an educational institution; but it would not, by itself, be an educational institution.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Then I move to insert after "educational institution" the words "not being a theological college."
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "After the word 'institution' to insert the words 'not being a theological college.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid these words were not wanted. Practically speaking, this was a definition for the purposes of Clause 4 of the word "college," which did not appear elsewhere. A theological college was not the sort of institution that Clause 4 dealt with; it did not include a theological college.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that, as a matter of fact, the word occurred again in Clause 13, but that did not affect this question much.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was perfectly well aware that such a thing was not contemplated, but he wanted to know whether it would be legal for a local authority to subsidise theological seminaries. He did not think they ought to be subsidised, though, if they were, Wales, in all probability, would derive the greatest advantage. But it ought to be made clear that such a thing should not be done.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid it was clear that the local authority would be able to assist a theological college. He did not see why the local authority should be forbidden to assist one sort of college more than any other sort of college.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was glad they had got at it at last. At first he was told that Clause 4 would cover the case; now it was clear that it did not. This was one of the little surprises of the Bill. Let it be clearly understood that it was perfectly possible under this Bill to endow any theological seminary of any denomination or sect. The book of revelation was not yet closed, in spite of the guillotine. He should press the Amendment as a protest against it.
  (3.53.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 94; Noes, 191. (Division List No. 530.)

  AYES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Caldwell, James

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Bell, Richard

  Cameron, Robert

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brigg, John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R.(Northants

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Leng, Sir John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.

  Lough, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Edwards, Frank

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomson, F. W.(York, W.R.)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Mather, Sir William

  Tomkinson, James

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Toulmin, George

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Moss, Samuel

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn HerbertJohn

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wallace, Robert

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wason, Eugene

  Grant, Corrie

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Weir, James Galloway

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Price, Robert John

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rea, Russell

  Whitley, J.H.(Halifax)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Runciman, Walter

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Lambert, George

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Langley, Batty

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Mr. Lloyd-George and

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Mr. M'Kenna.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Horner, Frederick William

  Aird, Sir John

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Howard, John(Kent, Fav'rsh'm

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Kemp, George

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lawrence, Wm. F.(Liverpool

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lawson, John Grant

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Bartley, George C.T.

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bignold, Arthur

  Finch, George H.

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Bigwood, James

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Bond, Edward

  Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

  Lowe, Francis William

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Flower, Ernest

  Lowther, C.(Cumb. Eskdale)

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Forster, Henry William

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bull, William James

  Galloway, William Johnson

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Butcher, John George

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

  Garfit, William

  Malcolm, Ian

  Carew, James Lawrence

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Carson, Rt. Hon Sir Edw. H.

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Cavendish, R.F.(N. Lancs.)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Maxwell, WJH(Dumfriesshire

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Greene, Sir EW (B'rySEdm'nds

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Montagu, G.(Huntingdon)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A(Worc.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Chapman, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hamilton, Rt Hon Lord G(Middx

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Mount, William Arthur

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Murray Charles J.(Coventry)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Myers, William Henry

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway N.)

  1070

  1071

  O'Doherty, William

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Valentia, Viscount

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.

  Percy, Earl

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. Tauntou

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Purvis, Robert

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Talbot, RtHon J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n'N

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Ropner, Col. Robert

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Words [of Sir WILLIAM ANSON'S Amendment] inserted.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 4, to leave out the words 'local education authority' and insert the word 'council.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 7, at end, to add: 'And shall include power to provide or assist in providing scholarships for, and to pay or assist in paying the fees of, students ordinarily resident in the area of the local education authority at schools or colleges or hostels within or without that area.
  "'(6) The county councillors elected for an electoral division consisting wholly of a borough or urban district, whose council is a local education authority for the purpose of Part III. of this Art, or of some part of such a borough or district, shall not act or vote in respect of any question arising before the County Council as regards matters under Part III. of this Act.
  "'(7) A woman is not disqualified, either by sex or marriage, for being on any body of Managers or Education Committee under this Act.'"—(Sir Wm. Anson.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEYmoved to leave out sub-Section 6 in order to insert the words "For the purposes of this Act the census of 1901, until superseded by any future census, shall be the test of population." He pointed out that many districts at
  1072
  present just under the population limit would soon be over that limit, and it would be unfair that they should be permanently denied the powers given under this Bill. The Amendment really required no explanation, and he hoped the concession would be made.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 8, to leave out sub-Section. (6), and insert the words 'For the purposes of this Act the census of 1901, until superseded by any future census, shall be the test of population.'"—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYobjected that if the status of a borough or urban district was to vary from time to time according to its population they would never know how they stood.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSpointed out that some districts might increase largely in population, while other districts would decrease. The scheme of the Government, therefore, did not confer the advantages of the Bill on the increasing populations, while perpetuating the rights possessed by populations which were diminishing. Moreover, his recollection was that the Prime Minister had previously stated that districts would vary according to the variation of the population. He

  1073
  thought the matter ought to be determined by the population of the locality for the time being.
  (4.15.) Question put;
  The committee divided:—Ayes 202, Noes,99. (Division List No.531).

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Aird, Sir John

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J.(Manc'r

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Mount, William Arthur

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Finch, George H.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham(Bute

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Myers, William Henry

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Flower, Ernest

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Forster, Henry William

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W.

  O'Doherty, William

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Garfit, William

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n

  Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Percy, Earl

  Bartley, George C.T.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

  Greene, Sir EW(BryS Edm'nds

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Greene, Henry D(Shrewsbury)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Bignold, Arthur

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bigwood, James

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Purvis, Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Pym, C. Guy

  Bond, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Hamilton, Rt Hn LordG(Midd'x

  Ratcliff, R.F.

  Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Ridley, Hon. M W. (Stalybridge

  Bull, William James

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Ridley,S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Butcher, John George

  Hope,J.F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Campbell, Rt Hn J.A.(Glasgow

  Horner, Frederick William

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cavendish, R.F.(N. Lancs.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Kemp, George

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir, John H.

  Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Seely, Maj.J.E.B(Isle of Wight

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J A(Worc

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Chapman, Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lawson, John Granr

  Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Leigh- Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stanley, Hon Arthur(Ormskirk

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Long, Col. Clarles W.(Evesham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Corbett,A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lowe, Francis William

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lowther, C.(Cumb. Eskdale)

  Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'n,N

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lucas, ReginaldJ(Portsmouth

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Valentia, Viscount

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Massey-Main waring, Hn. W.F.

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh.

  Warde, Colonel C.E.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H.M.

  Welby, Lt,-Col. A C. E (Taunton

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und Lyne

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Morgan, David J(Walthamst'w

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon George

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Allen, CharlesP.(Glouc.,Stroud

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C.B.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Bell, Richard

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brigg, John

  Kitson, Sir James

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C.R(Northants

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Lambert, George

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Langley, Batty

  Tennant, Harold John

  Burns, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Caldwell, James

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leng, Sir John

  Thomas,JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomson, F. W.(York, W.R.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lloyd-George, David

  Tomkinson, James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Wallace, Robert

  Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, Eugene

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mather, Sir William

  Weir, James Galloway

  Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Evans, Sir FrancisH(Maidstone

  Newnes, Sir George

  Whitley, J.H.(Halifax)

  Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Rea, Russell

  Woodhouse, SirJ.T(Huddersf'd

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Rackett, J. Compton

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Grant, Corrie

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Griffith, Ellis J

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Runciman, Walter

  Sir Edward Strachey and

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Mr. Channing.

  (4.26.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 206; Noes,101. (Division List No.532.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner James Tynte

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Aird, Sir John

  Brown, Alexander (Shropsh.

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Corbett, A. Cameron Glasgow

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bull, William James

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Butcher, John George

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Arrol, Sir William

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A(Glasgow

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Carew, James Laurence

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Ba1four, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Cavendish V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W(Leeds

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA(Worc.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Bartley, George C.T.

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

  Chapman, Edward

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Bignold, Arthur

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Bigwood, James

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Bond, Edward

  Coddington, Sir William

  Finch, George H.

  Boscowen, Arthur Griffith-

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lowther, C.(Cumb., Eskdale)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Flower, Ernest

  Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Forster, Henry William

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S. W

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Sackville, Col. S.G.(Stopford-

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Gardner, Ernest

  Malcolm, Ian

  Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)

  Garfit, William

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Gibbs, Hn.A.G.H.(CityofLond.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Seely, Maj.J.E.B.(IsleofWight

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Maxwell, W JH(Dumfriesshire

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H.M.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East

  Greene, SirE. W (B'rySEdm'nds

  Montagu, G.(Huntingdon)

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)

  Spencer, Sir E.(W. Bromwich)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morgan, DavidJ(Walth'mstow

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hamilton, Rt Hon. Lord G (Mid'x

  Mount, William Arthur

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Myers, William Henry

  Thompson, Dr.EC(Monagh'n N

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hope,J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Horner, Frederick William

  O'Doherty, William

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Kemp, George

  Percy, Earl

  Warde, Colonel C.E.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E(Taunton

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Purvis, Robert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E.R(Bath

  Leeky, Rt. Hn. WilliamEdw. H.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Ridley, Hon. M.W (Stalybridge

  Long, Rt. Hon Walter(Bristol, S

  Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Lowe, Francis William

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Lloyd-George David

  Allen, CharlesP.(Glouc.,Stroud

  Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Mather, Sir William

  Beaumont, Wentworth C.B.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Bell, Richard

  Grant, Corrie

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Brigg, John

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Gurton, Sir W. Brampton

  Newnes, Sir George

  Bryce, Rt. Hon James

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Burns, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Caldwell, James

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Cameron, Robert

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Price, Robert John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rea, Russell

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Kitson, Sir James

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lambert, George

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Langley, Batty

  Runciman, Walter

  Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Edwards, Frank

  Leng, Sir John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H.(M'dstone

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  1078

  1079

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Thomas, J A(Glamorgan Gower

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Tomkinson, James

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R(Northants

  Toulmin, George

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Wallace, Robert

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wason, Eugene

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Weir, James Galloway

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Whitley, J.H.(Halifax)

  and Mr. William M'Arthur.

  It being half-past Four of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, proceeded successively to put forthwith the Question on the Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, on every question necessary to dispose of the allotted business.
  Clause 19:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page8, line 10, after the second word 'the' to insert the words 'First and.'"— (Sir William Anson.)
  (4.38.) Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 205; Noes,84. (Division List No.533.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

  Aird, Sir John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Horner, Frederick William

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversham

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Howard, J (Midd., Tottenham)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Kemp, George

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Bartley, George C.T.

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Beresford, Lord Charles William

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lawson, John Grant

  Bignold, Arthur

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lecky, Rt Hon. William Edw. H.

  Bigwood, James

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Legge, Colonel Hon. Heneage

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Bond, Edward

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Finch, George H.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Bull, William James

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Butcher, John George

  Flower, Ernest

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Campbell, Rt HnJ.A. (Glasgow

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Ivor, David (Liverpool)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W.

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Malcolm, Ian

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Gardner, Ernest

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)

  Garfit, William

  Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Gibbs, Hn. AGH.(City of Lond.

  Maxwell, WJ H(Dumfriesshire

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H.M.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA. (Worc.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Montagn, G. (Huntingdon)

  Chapman, Edward

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS Edm'nds

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Charrington, Spencer

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  More, Robert Jasper (Shropshire

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Morgan, David J (Wa'thamst'W

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Coddington, Sir William

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tomlinson, Sir William Edw. M.

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Myers, William Henry

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Valentia, Viscount

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH(Sheffield

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway N.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H.

  O'Doherty, William

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight)

  Welby, Lt-Col. AC.E.(Taunton

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Percy, Earl

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Wilson A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stan1ey, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Purvis, Robert

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Pym, C. Guy

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Rankin, Sir James

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Strutt, Hon Charles Hedley

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W(Stalybridge

  Thompson, Dr. EC. (Monagh'n, N

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allen, Charles P.(Glone.,Stroud

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swanesa

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Kitson, Sir James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

  Spencer, Rt Hn C.R(Northants

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Bell, Richard

  Leng, Sir John

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Brigg, John

  Levy, Maurice

  Tennant, Harold John

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Burns, John

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Caldwell, James

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Cameron, Robert

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Mather, Sir William

  Tomkinson, James

  Cremer, William Randal

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Toulmin, George

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Moss, Samuel

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wallace, Robert

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wason, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Weir, James Galloway

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  White, Luke, (York, E.R.)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Price, Robert John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Rea, Russell

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Woodhouse, Sir JT.(Huddersf'd

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Runciman, Walter

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Schwann, Charles E.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Mr. Ellis Griffith and Mr.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

  Samuel Evans.

  (4.48.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill"
  The Committee divided:—Ayes,204; Noes,93. (Division List No.534.)

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey)

  Aird, Sir John

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (L'ds

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS. Edm'nds

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bignold, Arthur

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Bigwood, James

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bond, Edward

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Purvis, Robert

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis)

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd

  Rankin, Sir James

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bull, William James

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

  Butcher, John George

  Hope, J.E.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green

  Campbell, Rt Hn J. A.(Glasgow

  Horner, Frederick William

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Carew, James Laurence

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Kemp, George,

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn JA.(Worc'r

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Chapman, Edward

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (IsleofWight

  Charrington, Spencer

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Smith, Hon. W. F D. (Strand)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lowe, Francis William

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Lyttleton, Hon. Alfred

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n,N

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Maxwell, WJH.(Dumfriesshire

  Vincent, Col. SirCEH.(Sheffield

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Durning, Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Egerton, Hon. A de Tatton

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Welby, Lt.-Col. AC.E.(Taunt'n

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E. R.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Finch, George H.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Flower, Ernest

  Myers, William Henry

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Forster, Henry William

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick,S.W

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  O'Doherty, William

  Gardner, Ernest

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Gardner, William

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Gibbs, Hn. H. A. G (CityofLond.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Percy, Earl

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Bayley, Thomas, (Derbyshire)

  Burns, John

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Beaumont, Wentworth C.B.

  Caldwell, James

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bell, Richard

  Cameron, Robert

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Brigg, John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Causton, Richard Knight

  1084

  1085

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Leng, Sir John

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R.(Northants

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Davies, Alfred(Caramarthen)

  Lough, Thomas

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  M'Arthur, William(Cornwall)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Edwards, Frank

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomson, F.W. (York, W.R.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Newnes, Sir George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wallace, Robert

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Wason, Eugene

  Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Grant, Corrie

  Price, Robert John

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Griffith Ellis J.

  Rea, Russell

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Williams, Osmand (Merioneth)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wilson, Henry J (York, W. R.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Jones, David Brynor(Swansca

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Sir John Brunner and Mr.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Runciman.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Clause 20:ߞ
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 31, to leave out from the word 'authorities' to the end of line 35, and insert the words, 'the period during which local authorities may, under the Education Act,1901, as renewed by the Education Act (1901) (Renewal) Act,1902, empower School Boards to carry on the work of the schools and classes to which these Acts relate shall be extended

  AYES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Allen, Charles P(Glouc.,Stroud

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Bell, Richard

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Brigg, John

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Burns, John

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Caldwell, James

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomson, F. W (York, W.R.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Moss, Samuel

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wallace, Robert

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Norman, Henry

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh)

  Norton, Captain Cecil William

  Wason, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Weir, James Galloway

  Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone

  Pickard, Benjamin

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Price, Robert John

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Rea, Russell

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  TELLERS FOR THE Ayes.—

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Mr. John Wilson (Durham)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. (CharlesSeale-

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  and Mr. Cremer.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Runciman, Walter

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  to the appointed day, and in the case of London to the twenty-sixth day of March, nineteen hundred and four.'"—(Sir William Anson.)
  (5.2) Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 65; Noes,204. (Division List, No.535.)
  Words inserted.
  (5.13.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Myers, William Henry

  Aird, Sir John

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Flower, Ernest

  O'Doherty, William

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Forster, Henry William

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Arrol, Sir William

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Gardner, Ernest

  Pease Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Gartit, William

  Percy, Earl

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Gibbs, Hn A.G.H.(Cityof Lond.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey)

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St.Albans)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W(Leeds

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS. Edun'nds

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Purvis, Robert

  Beresford Lord Charles William

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Pym, C. Guy

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bignold, Arthur

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Bigwood, James

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bond, Edward

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Ridley, Hn. M. W.(Stalybridge

  Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn Chas. Thomson

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hope. J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Brown, A1exander H.(Shropsh.

  Horner, Frederick William

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Bull, William James

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Butcher, John George

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Campbell, Rt Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

  Kemp, George

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Carew, James Laurence

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (IsleofWight

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A.(Wocr

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Chapman, Edward

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol,S.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Lowe, Francis William

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Lowther, C. Cumb., Eskdale)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n, N

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Cust, Henry John C.

  M'Kil1op, James (Stirlingshire)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Maxwel, WJ.H (Dumfriesshire

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Vincent, Col Sir C.E.H(Sheffield

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Montagu, G (Huntingdon)

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Doxford, Sir-William Theodore

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Duke, Henry Edward

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Warde, Colonel C.E.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Morgan David J(Waltamstow

  Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E.(Taunton

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Finch, George H.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

  The Committee divided:—Ayes,197:Noes,89. (Division List No.536.)

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart-

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Runciman, Walter

  Allen, Charles P., Glouc.(Stroud

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Sehwann, Charles E.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Bell, Richard

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Brigg, John

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R. (Northants

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Burns, John

  Leng, Sir John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Caldwell, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E

  Cameron, Robert

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Wallace, Robert

  Cremer, William Randal

  Moss, Samuel

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wason, Eugene

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Norman, Henry

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Edwards, Frank

  Pixie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Rea, Russell

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  and Mr. William M'Arthur

  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  EDUCATION ENGLAND AND WALES) [GRANTS].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of certain annual grants to local education authorities in pursuance of any Act of the present session to make further provision with respect to education in England and Wales."—(Mr. A.J. Balfour.)
  It being after half-past Four of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, proceeded to put the Question forthwith.
  MR.SAMUEL EVANS,seated, and with his hat on, asked whether there would be an opportunity of discussing in Committee the proposals of the Government which were the basis of this Financial Resolution, and which were only put on the Paper yesterday.
  MR.BRYNMOR JONESasked what position they were now in with reference to this Resolution.
  THE CHAIRMAN: This is the Committee stage on the Financial Resolution which is referred to in the Resolution the House passed on 11th November. That Resolution says that the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution will be terminated on Friday, 14th November.
  MR.SAMUEL EVANS: My point is that that Resolution was obtained from the House on the basis of the proposals of the Government which were put down

  1093
  so far back as 23rd July, and that the Government have substituted for these proposals other proposals which appeared on the Paper only yesterday or today.
  THE CHAIRMAN: These proposals are not being passed now. They will come on on Monday.
  MR.SAMUEL EVANS: Can they be discussed?
  THE CHAIRMAN: They will be discussed on Monday.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANS: Supposing they are not reached until such time as the guillotine drops, can we then discuss them?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The first Order on Monday will be the Report of the Financial Resolution; that will open the door to discussion; and, if that is not sufficient, the new Clause relating to the aid grant will be the second Order.

  AYES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Aird, Sir John

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A (Worc.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Arrol, Sir William

  Chapman, Edward

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Flower, Ernest

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Forster, Henry William

  Balfour, Capt C. B.(Hornsey)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Foster, Philip S(Warwick, S.W.

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

  Cok, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Gardner, Ernest

  Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Garfit, William

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H.(CityofLond.

  Beresford, Lord Chas William

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Godson, Sir Augnstus Frederick

  Bigwood, James

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS. Edm'nds

  Bond, Edward

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Bowles, Capt. H.F. (Middlesex

  Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Bowles, T. Gibson(King's Lynn)

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bull, William James

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Butcher, John George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Carew, James Laurence

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Horner, Frederick William

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Mr. SAMUEL EVANS: That, of course, refers to the Report Stage of this Resolution, but the question is whether we shall have any opportunity in the Committee Stage which we are now in, of discussing the proposals which appeared on the paper for the first time yesterday, after the Closure Rule had been passed.
  THE CHAIRMAN: There will be no opportunity of discussing the Clause which was put down and has been withdrawn; there will be an opportunity of discussing the Clause now on the Paper.
  MR.SAMUEL EVANS: But can we not discuss this Resolution in Committee?
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the Resolution passed on Tuesday prevented discussion now.
  (5.28.) Question Put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes. 191; Noes,46. (Division List No.537.)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Murray Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Kemp, George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Myers, William Henry

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T,(Denbigh.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  O'Doherty, William

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n, N

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Percy, Earl

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lowe, Francis William

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Purvis, Robert

  Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Warde, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Whiteley, H(Ashton-und-Lyne

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Malcolm, Ian

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Maxwell, W.JH(Dumfriesshire

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Moon, Edgar Robert Pacy

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  More, Robt Jasper (Shropshire)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Morgan, David J.(Walth'mstow

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (IsleofWight

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Sir Alexander Acland-

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Brigg, John

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Burns, John

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Caldwell, James

  Newnes, Sir George

  Thomson, F. W. York, W.R.)

  Cameron, Robert

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Weir, James Galloway

  Cremer, William Randal

  Pickard, Benjamin

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Runciman, Walter

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Mr. Wallace and Mr.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Ellis Griffith.

  Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE BILL [LORDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October last, adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock till Monday next.